Subject: [PRR] Cyber Chapter Official Formation Date: Sun, 1 Aug 99 14:16:55 -0400 From: Jerry This is for national PRRT&HS members only: If you are interested in working with me to form the Offical Cyber Chapter of the PRRT&HS, please e-mail me (off-list) with your full name, city, state, phone number, and PRRT&HS membership number. I have updated the Cyber Chapter web page and included a proposed list of objectives. Please share your comments: http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com Thank you. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 13:39:03 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Boswer T-1 Greg, Roger, and the List, My only concern for you is your desire to have an engine quickly. I also have a Bowser T-1 with the Alco Products can motors, and assembly will take you a couple of weeks, at least. Mine has stretched out over a year and a half now (OTS and three moves having slowed my progress somewhat). This is the kind of kit you want to build slowly and carefully. My mechanisms went together well, and now, I'm putting on a few boiler details every couple of days. Done this way, it's quite relaxing. If you want an engine quickly, check Bowser's web site; they have a few PRR engines ready to run. They don't have the superdetail kits, but they'll pull small houses, and you can buy the Alco Products can motors for them and install them in about an hour. You could also purchase the Spectrum K4s engines; they're ready to run, and the new ones have improved mechanisms (though some still consider them suspect due to the poor running qualities of the first batches), though they don't pull nearly as much as the Bowser engines (on a club layout, this can become a factor quickly). Doug Greg Johnson wrote: > I believe that Bowser (or English) sells the Alco remotoring kits now. Try > them direct for both items. You can call their shop tomorrow (Saturday) and > find out. > > Regards, > > Greg Johnson > -----Original Message----- > From: Roger Elliott > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Date: Friday, July 30, 1999 8:25 PM > Subject: [PRR] Boswer T-1 > > >Hey Jerry and anyone else out there too, > >I want to buy a Bowser T-1 and I also want to get the ALCO remotor kit. > >What is the fastest way I can get these items? There is a club that has > >asked for my help to run trains at a county fair and I don't have an HO > >engine of my own, so I want to get one ASAP. > > > >I've got the address of the ALCO fellow and I just found the phone > >number. How does he usually take payments? Or is there a source for > >his drive kits that can send to me pronto? > > > >Thanks for the Help, > >Roger Elliott > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Convention, National Society, Etc. (long) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 99 13:49:47 -0400 From: Jerry Sorry if I get long-winded here... I had the first of what is likely to be several "heart to hearts" with Walt Keely yesterday. We spoke of the convention, a cyber chapter, this list, attitudes towards nationals, etc. Walt and I have agreed to open new lines of communications between us -- kind of an "air clearing" thing -- so that I, for the benefit of the list, have a direct line into the national society. It seems that one or more individuals on this list are forwarding posts (mostly by me) to Walt and others that contain content about the society. In my opionion (and others!), the folks that do this forwarding are "ferrets", "weasels" and "rats" (not to be confused with the B-1's). Why? 1. "PRR-Talk" is a public, unmoderated list. If national officers want to know what is being said, they should subscribe direct. They don't have to make posts, in which case nobody would even know they are on the list. They can also subscribe via digest mode to reduce the mail to one or two a day. Since this is the case, there should be no reason for anyone to forward posts unless they have their own hidden agenda. 2. The archive of "PRR-Talk" is publicly available, with about a 24-hour delay, and even non-subscribers have access to it. Any national officer could perform a search and find out exactly what was said and by whom. 3. Most importantly, in some instances, the data that is being forwarded are excerpts. This often prevents the whole story from being told. More importantly, and in my case, it can make words appear to be mine when I am requoting what someone else actually said. There have been numerous derogatory comments about national that are attributed to me that were not my words. I have voiced some negative comments (check the archive), but many complaints are not mine. For the record, I am very pro-national. Though I disagree with a few things now and then, I believe it is a good organization with a phenomenal magazine in "The Keystone" (which is worth the dues alone). The "PRR-Talk" track that was developed for the upcoming convention was out of a voiced need from this list. It was not announced to the society at large, though reports back to national make it appear that our intent is to be a competing group, which it is not. These events were only announced to the online group, which has little bearing on the overall society. Unfortunately for the society, the Lewistown trip has been cancelled. While our sessions would be beneficial to the society as a whole, the venue at the museum will not hold the volume of individuals likely to attend were they held at the hotel. Furthermore, the organizers of this track agree that we owe it to the museum -- which has been very generous to us on this and prior RailFest events -- to continue to maintain that venue. To further complicate matters, the hotel can only offer additional meeting space to the society until 3 p.m. on Friday. Walt has arranged for one seminar on Friday afternoon, at the hotel, on M-1's. Now we have an unfortunate situation where we appear to have two groups competing for attendence, though not by intent. I have suggested to Walt that we try to move the M-1 session to the museum, in the morning, so as to have only one seminar venue. We could also suggest that the masses just plain visit the museum as the "formal" activity for all of Friday. (I have not heard back from Walt yet.) I have heard through the grapevine -- unconfirmed -- that Walt has arranged for the Cincinatti Modelers group to do a talk. Hopefully that would be Saturday after the banquet, as I would like to see it AND I am sure we all want to see a session then anyway. Walt is working on an updated schedule, to be mailed to registrants this week. (The M-1 and modeling sessions are tentative...wait for your schedule for confirmation of any and all events.) I have asked Walt to include our events in the mailing. I don't know if that will happen or not. It is also worth noting that we arranged for PRRT&HS members to receive a $2 discount at the museum. I want to be very clear: It was not and is not our intent to compete with the national organization. However, our seminar track at the museum will remain as scheduled. Walt is working hard to fill in the blanks and I support him and the society in doing so. Looking ahead, Walt and I have agreed to have further discussions about the online contingent AND about the establishment of a "cyber chapter". He has verbally voiced support of this chapter and I will be pursuing it with he and the other national officers. I think that there is a lot we can contribute to the society...look what we arranged in the past four weeks! Hopefully I have covered everything and have done so in a clear manner. My wife is out of town and I have two screaming kids pulling at my legs, so bear with me if I need to clarify any points. Thanks. I have BCC'd this to Walt directly, so there is little chance of misinterpretation. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 13:50:51 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] E-6 Atlantics Hello List, Apex of the Atlantics can be excruciatingly difficult to find. Check train shows; at the Timonium shows, I've seen copies from $40 to $60. Also, Ron's Books (914 967 7541, fax 914 967 7492) buys and sells out of print railroad books. I was exceedingly lucky and found my copy at a local hobby shop when I was living in Maryland. The book, long out of print, was expensive, but worth it. Westing is a fantastic writer, and he explains highly technical concepts in layman's terms, and makes them exciting. Good hunting!!! Doug endeimling@mindspring.com wrote: > I am looking for a copy of the Kalmbach book on PRR E-6 Atlantics. The > title is "Apex of the Atlantics" by Fred Westing. Any lead? > Gene Deimling > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 22:15:43 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Railroad musings Hello Folks... This is a bit off topic...but some of you might want to hear about some of this. Over the weekend i visited my step-mom and also talked to her brother-in law who is manager of Amtrak's high speed testing. On the way up and back i noticed this.... NS is installing new signals somewhere between Suffolk,Va. and Petersburg,Va. I saw some gondolas sitting on a siding in Disputanta (SP ?)Va. with a bunch of the old PRR like signals in them... My guess would be they are going to scrap. These were the signal mast,targets and lights...also some of the signal equipment. Now the Amtrak news. As some know the new Acela train is being tested out at the Pubelo, Colo. test site. Doug (my step moms brother in law) told me this.... The train will not be ready for its October debut. There are too many bugs to work out (Hmmmm reminds me of the Original Metroliners). They have tested the train up to 207 MPH. The crews who will eventially run the trains will have to be very computer literate. There are several computer interfaces onboard the train for the Conductor and asst Conductor to use. The Conductor's will have a laptop to access the interfaces. Engineers will be given different level access cards (similar to a credit card) that will give them access to the power car. Different employees will have different cards depending on their qualifications. Road crews will have a card that will let them operate the train up to road speeds. Yard crews will have cards that will only allow them speeds up to 20 MPH in yard switching. Maintanance Crews will have a card for up to 10 MPH. Some of the contols for the train are.... Automatic speed reduction to 30 MPH if any of the train doors are opened. Conductors will have a card that will allow them to open the doors overiding the usual door functions (not the 30 MPH feature) The old "church key" type lock system is going to be done away with. Acela trains have electric brakes and also regenerative braking. There are no independant or train brake controls in the power cars. All brake fuctions are tied into the throttle. If a emergency application is needed the throttle is moved to "0" MPH. The train has wheel slip indicators. During one high speed test they had one of the Brake fuctions inoperatable and it took 28 MILES to stop it. Both power cars are set up to regenerate power to the overhead line when this feature is used. But i was told that the train is generating too much power back to the line than what is acceptable. One of the problems they are having with it is the old lateral stress and motion problem. At speeds up to 130 MPH it works fine. But at speeds over 130 up to 200 and because of the tilt mechanism and truck design the power car trucks want to "Hunt" I was told that they want to travel from side to side on the rails at these speeds. Another problem is with syncronizing the two power cars at high speeds. The rear power car has a tendency to want to run at a slightly higher speed that the lead power car. This leads to the rest of the train being bunched up between the two power cars. There is also some trouble still with the tilt mechanism. Also out at the test site Doug also saw this.... The japanese don't have a test site for some of their trains so.... They have a new high speed train that they are testing that changes gauges at speed. I was'nt told how it does it, and also the Japanese are doing the tests at night from 12 AM until about 8 AM in the morning to help keep folks from seeing how the train does this. The only time Amtrak personnel can see it is between 7 and 8 AM. This train has been tested up to 100 MPH so far. They are crash testing the new Bi- Level cars for MARC. I was told one car was run at 60 MPH into a concrete wall. The car held up well. This type of testing probably stems from the recent Amtrak and commuter crashes. All new Amtrak cars will have to go through this type of testing. I'd like to see what a Acela train does at 150 MPH ! UP and EMD are testing the MAC90. This engine has 8000 H.P. They tied (if i remember right) 8 engines to this loco and set the dynamic and emergency brakes on them. Then they started the MAC90...it moved them ! (I'd like to know how they kept the couplers from braking) They are now running this engine 24 hours a day 7 days a week for a endurance test. It is remotely controled and the only time it stops is for fuel. EMD wants to run it up to 100,000 miles. 10 freight cars a week are blown up (hey thats what i was told) so railroad and emergency personnel can learn what to do in derailments. I would guess old cars that are ready for retirement are used for this. TTX is testing a car that carries containers 2 high by 2 wide. TTX wants to increase what present cars can carry. No word on stability and clearances for these cars. I would guess Western roads might be able to use a car like this in some places. Some of BNSF's former Sante Fe lines were rebuilt a while back with more distances between two sets of tracks. Who knows ? Til Later H.Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 23:55:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] H37b's and H39's(Reply) Rich Orr writes: << The first class of PRR hoppers to ride on roller bearing trucks were H42 cylindrical covered hoppers. >> Gize, What I think Rich meant to say is that the first class of PRR hoppers to ride on roller bearing trucks were the H-33 covered two bay hoppers. The practice was not repeated until the H42 hoppers were purchased. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 09:09:38 -0400 From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad musings bubbles@visi.net wrote: > Hello Folks... > > This is a bit off topic...but some of you might want to hear about > some of this. > Over the weekend i visited my step-mom and also talked to her > brother-in law who is manager of Amtrak's high speed testing. > On the way up and back i noticed this.... > > NS is installing new signals somewhere between Suffolk,Va. and > Petersburg,Va. > I saw some gondolas sitting on a siding in Disputanta (SP ?)Va. > with a bunch of the old PRR like signals in them... > My guess would be they are going to scrap. These were > the signal mast,targets and lights...also some of the signal > equipment. > > Now the Amtrak news. As some know the new Acela train is being > tested out at the Pubelo, Colo. test site. Doug (my step moms > brother in law) told me this.... > > The train will not be ready for its October debut. There are > too many bugs to work out (Hmmmm reminds me of the Original > Metroliners). They have tested the train up to 207 MPH. The crews > who will eventially run the trains will have to be very computer > literate. There are several computer interfaces onboard the train > for the Conductor and asst Conductor to use. The Conductor's > will have a laptop to access the interfaces. Engineers will be > given different level access cards (similar to a credit card) > that will give them access to the power car. Different employees > will have different cards depending on their qualifications. > Road crews will have a card that will let them operate the train > up to road speeds. Yard crews will have cards that will only > allow them speeds up to 20 MPH in yard switching. Maintanance > Crews will have a card for up to 10 MPH. > > Some of the contols for the train are.... > Automatic speed reduction to 30 MPH if any of the train doors are > opened. Conductors will have a card that will allow them to > open the doors overiding the usual door functions (not the 30 > MPH feature) The old "church key" type lock system is going to > be done away with. Acela trains have electric brakes and > also regenerative braking. There are no independant or train > brake controls in the power cars. All brake fuctions are > tied into the throttle. If a emergency application is needed > the throttle is moved to "0" MPH. The train has wheel slip > indicators. During one high speed test they had one of the > Brake fuctions inoperatable and it took 28 MILES to stop it. > Both power cars are set up to regenerate power to the overhead > line when this feature is used. But i was told that the train > is generating too much power back to the line than what is > acceptable. > One of the problems they are having with it is the old lateral > stress and motion problem. At speeds up to 130 MPH it works > fine. But at speeds over 130 up to 200 and because of the tilt > mechanism and truck design the power car trucks want to "Hunt" > I was told that they want to travel from side to side on the rails > at these speeds. > Another problem is with syncronizing the two power cars at high > speeds. The rear power car has a tendency to want to run at a slightly > higher speed that the lead power car. This leads to the rest of > the train being bunched up between the two power cars. > There is also some trouble still with the tilt mechanism. > > Also out at the test site Doug also saw this.... > > The japanese don't have a test site for some of their trains so.... > They have a new high speed train that they are testing that > changes gauges at speed. I was'nt told how it does it, and also > the Japanese are doing the tests at night from 12 AM until about > 8 AM in the morning to help keep folks from seeing how the train > does this. The only time Amtrak personnel can see it is between > 7 and 8 AM. This train has been tested up to 100 MPH so far. > > They are crash testing the new Bi- Level cars for MARC. I was > told one car was run at 60 MPH into a concrete wall. The car > held up well. This type of testing probably stems from the recent > Amtrak and commuter crashes. All new Amtrak cars will have to go > through this type of testing. I'd like to see what a Acela > train does at 150 MPH ! > > UP and EMD are testing the MAC90. This engine has 8000 H.P. > They tied (if i remember right) 8 engines to this loco and > set the dynamic and emergency brakes on them. Then they started > the MAC90...it moved them ! (I'd like to know how they kept the > couplers from braking) > They are now running this engine 24 hours a day 7 days a week > for a endurance test. It is remotely controled and the only > time it stops is for fuel. EMD wants to run it up to 100,000 > miles. > > 10 freight cars a week are blown up (hey thats what i was told) > so railroad and emergency personnel can learn what to do in > derailments. I would guess old cars that are ready for retirement > are used for this. > > TTX is testing a car that carries containers 2 high by 2 wide. > TTX wants to increase what present cars can carry. No word on > stability and clearances for these cars. I would guess Western > roads might be able to use a car like this in some places. > Some of BNSF's former Sante Fe lines were rebuilt a while > back with more distances between two sets of tracks. > Who knows ? > > Til Later > H.Mummert > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Now, that's a great post! Saw two streamlined trainsets in Philly the weekend of 7/10. My daughter's boyfriend said they'd been there about a week. Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 09:15:49 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad musings bubbles@visi.net wrote (in part): > .. . . > Another problem is with syncronizing the two power cars at high > speeds. The rear power car has a tendency to want to run at a slightly > higher speed that the lead power car. -- Its just like the P2K E8s. Obviously Amtrak needs to add the extra diode to the Acela's constant brightness headlight ;-) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad musings Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 11:40:02 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell On 1 Aug, bubbles@visi.net wrote: > [ ... ] If a emergency application is needed > the throttle is moved to "0" MPH. [ ... ] That doesn't make it easy to do a smooth stop! > They are crash testing the new Bi- Level cars for MARC. I was > told one car was run at 60 MPH into a concrete wall. The car > held up well. [ ... ] The MBTA has had these same cars (Kawasaki, right?) for several years now, and they hold up pretty well. There were serious teething troubles, of course. One reason for them vs Chicago bilevels is that they fit wherever an F40PH does. Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 12:12:03 EDT Subject: [PRR] Book:Pennsy Streamliners Hi Guys, I just received a copy of "Pennsy Streamliners, The Blue Ribbon Fleet", by Joe Welsh (as a gift). A great deal of the information contained in this publication was provided by Chris Bear, of the Hagley Museum and Library; Bill Howes, a former director of the Pullman Company; and historian Peter Tilp. Many other provided photographs, memorabilia and support, including Chuck Blardone and the PRRT&HS. The book is inundated with excellent color and black and white photos of these trains, as well as illustrations and photos of the interiors of many of the cars. Chapter One, deals with the 'Fleet of Modernism'. Consists of these trains is also included in the text. Another added attraction is the inclusion of some very clear photos of the ends of a number of cars that the modelers among us will find beneficial, I'm sure. One photo of note, depicts an L-1, double-heading with a K-4, in passenger service. I don't recall ever seeing an L-1 used in this manner, although I'm sure such anomalies occurred from time-to-time. Additional consists are also included that show, on selected dates, both power and cars that show by class and number that particular trains make-up. The next chapter concerns 'A New Postwar Blue Ribbon Fleet'. This section goes into detail and shows some of the selected consists as well as some nice interior photos of these cars, including a very nice interior shot of Pennsy's twin-unit diner. Chapter Three pertains to 'Through Cars and Trains of the Blue Ribbon Fleet'. Again, excellent descriptions and photos are included. Chapter Five, pertains to 'Home from the Road: Sunnyside - The Largest Coach Yard in the World'. This chapter contains an interesting photo of a GG1 being pulled through a wash rack by means of a shuttle. First time I had ever seen a photo of this procedure. Chapter Five: 'The Long Good-bye' deals with the end of an era. All-in-all, I think that all PRR fans (historians and modelers) will enjoy this publication, I did. The book contains 161 pages, and is approximately 8 1/2 x 11 inch format. I also believe that Jerry carries this book in his "Merchandise Service Store" and would be delighted to provide you with one! Regards, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 13:34:30 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Book:Pennsy Streamliners From: "Jerry Britton" > I > also believe that Jerry carries this book in his "Merchandise Service Store" > and would be delighted to provide you with one! Yes, I do, and thanks for the plug! Actually, I have advance reservations for a dozen or so of these, and I have to apologize as my distributor shipped them two weeks ago into a black hole, so it seems. They finally reshipped my order last Friday. When they arrive, all backorders will be filled and additional copies will be available. Sorry for the delay for those who are waiting! -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 15:28:24 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Cyber Chapter Answers to Questions From: "Jerry Britton" Along with all the responses to be included (thanks!), I've received numerous queries about the Cyber Chapter. Here are a few details: 1. I asked for only National Members to respond. Reason: To charter a chapter, I need to submit a list of at least 10 chapter (proposed) members that ARE national members. Once chartered, the chapter may admit non-national members, but they must maintain at least 10 national members at all times. It is up to the chapter to decide if they require their members to also be national members. We have at least 10, though many have promised to get back to me with their national membership numbers, which I will need. 2. Unlike during past discussions about creating a chapter, I am actually pursuing this through channels at this time. I am waiting on a set of by-laws which are en-route from Walt Keely. Item #1 (above) is the only requirement, but the by-laws spell out the application process and the organizational requirements of a chapter. Once all this is received, I will post it to the "charter members" via a new, private, chapter mailing list. I also wanted to address a few issues that came up about a year ago when this was last discussed. 1. I will not seek financial reimbursement to fund a private chapter mailing list or for serving a chapter web site (http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com). If the chapter wants to develop new services which have costs associated with them, that is different. The chapter can pay me (or whoever) for implementation costs. 2. "PRR-Talk" will continue as a public mailing list. It would be nice if the chapter "endorsed" it as a public medium. A private chapter list would allow discussion of chapter business only, with historical/modeling discussion continuing on "PRR-Talk". I foresee a private area (via password) on the chapter web site which would gain members access to new benefits. These may include (finally) a "universal" web index, special product discounts from various vendors, etc. How and what it would include would be determined by the charter members via the private list. Dues? Perhaps. My thought is that we should have them, say $10 a year. True, we don't have the costs other chapters incur for meeting space, etc., but it could place us in an advantageous condition to sponsor restoration work that other chapters can only do via fund drives. Again, to be discussed by the charter members. As for me, I'm taking the lead on this just to get it off the ground. Due to my role in another volunteer organization, I cannot take the role of secretary or treasurer of the new chapter. If nominated, I would be happy to serve in another position. Again, to be discussed by the charter members. I will be updating the chapter site often as things progress, so please stay tuned. Thank you. -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Book:Pennsy Streamliners Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 15:37:34 -0400 Re: Using an L-1 as a snapper on passenger trains, I believe there was a period when this was commonly done in Emporium PA up the hill to Keating Summit, on the Harrisburg/Buffalo line. I remember a photo somewhere - Staufer's PP3 runs in my mind, but I can't swear to that. I-1's (three of them) were commonly used for freight - the climb to Keating Summit was around 2.7% as I recall! Bill Bigler -----Original Message----- From: Eichhorn@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, August 02, 1999 1:41 PM Subject: [PRR] Book:Pennsy Streamliners >Hi Guys, > >I just received a copy of "Pennsy Streamliners, The Blue Ribbon Fleet", by >Joe Welsh (as a gift). A great deal of the information contained in this >publication was provided by Chris Bear, of the Hagley Museum and Library; >Bill Howes, a former director of the Pullman Company; and historian Peter >Tilp. Many other provided photographs, memorabilia and support, including >Chuck Blardone and the PRRT&HS. >The book is inundated with excellent color and black and white photos of >these trains, as well as illustrations and photos of the interiors of many of >the cars. >Chapter One, deals with the 'Fleet of Modernism'. Consists of these trains >is also included in the text. Another added attraction is the inclusion of >some very clear photos of the ends of a number of cars that the modelers >among us will find beneficial, I'm sure. One photo of note, depicts an L-1, >double-heading with a K-4, in passenger service. I don't recall ever seeing >an L-1 used in this manner, although I'm sure such anomalies occurred from >time-to-time. Additional consists are also included that show, on selected >dates, both power and cars that show by class and number that particular >trains make-up. The next chapter concerns 'A New Postwar Blue Ribbon Fleet'. >This section goes into detail and shows some of the selected consists as well >as some nice interior photos of these cars, including a very nice interior >shot of Pennsy's twin-unit diner. Chapter Three pertains to 'Through Cars and >Trains of the Blue Ribbon Fleet'. Again, excellent descriptions and photos >are included. Chapter Five, pertains to 'Home from the Road: Sunnyside - The >Largest Coach Yard in the World'. This chapter contains an interesting photo >of a GG1 being pulled through a wash rack by means of a shuttle. First time >I had ever seen a photo of this procedure. Chapter Five: 'The Long Good-bye' >deals with the end of an era. >All-in-all, I think that all PRR fans (historians and modelers) will enjoy >this publication, I did. >The book contains 161 pages, and is approximately 8 1/2 x 11 inch format. I >also believe that Jerry carries this book in his "Merchandise Service Store" >and would be delighted to provide you with one! > >Regards, >George > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FRANKGARON@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 17:29:18 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Bernice Branch (Chicago Union Station) IIRC, The Bernice branch was always the line that split off the Panhandle north of Hartsdale and ran up to the Ft. Wayne line. Amtrak used to run over it (the train from Indy). Most is now abandoned, can anybody confirm it has been ripped up or not? Also - Indiana Harbor Canal Tower on the Ft. Wayne line is still there (atleast it was 3 years ago). In decent shape, looking at it from a distance, but NO way to get a good shot. Surrounded by a Steel Mill! Frank Garon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 15:02:24 -0700 Subject: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions From: "Doug and Marianne" > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3016450944_222149_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit With the retirement of the final GG1's in 1983 (I believe that was the year), the last steam heated passenger cars were also retired. Did these cars also have air brakes with air supplied from the locomotive? Is it correct that the replacement cars were heated, lighted, and braked?? with electric power supplied from the locomotive (Head End Power - HEP)? What kind of brakes do the new cars have? I remember that Amtrak used a HEP supply car during the transition period to power converted heritage and newer cars. Did NJ Transit use any HEP cars with their GG1's? I assume that NJT retired all of its steam heated cars at the time of the GG1 retirement. I also understand that the catenary power was changed from 25 to 60Hz. Did this change happen immediately following retirement of the GG1's? I assume that these two events were related. Any other information on the retirement of the GG1's is appreciated. Any and all responses are welcome. Thanks for the information. Doug N. babal@slip.net --MS_Mac_OE_3016450944_222149_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: GG1 retirement questions
With the retirement of the final GG1's in 1983 (I believe that = was the year), the last steam heated passenger cars were also retired.  = ;Did these cars also have air brakes with air supplied from the locomotive?<= BR>
Is it correct that the replacement cars were heated, lighted, and braked?? = with electric power supplied from the locomotive (Head End Power - HEP)? &nb= sp;What kind of brakes do the new cars have?

I remember that Amtrak used a HEP supply car during the transition period t= o power converted heritage and newer cars.  Did NJ Transit use any HEP = cars with their GG1's?  I assume that NJT retired all of its steam heat= ed cars at the time of the GG1 retirement.

I also understand that the catenary power was changed from 25 to 60Hz. &nbs= p;Did this change happen immediately following retirement of the GG1's? &nbs= p;I assume that these two events were related.  

Any other information on the retirement of the GG1's is appreciated.  = Any and all responses are welcome.  Thanks for the information.

Doug N.

babal@slip.net

--MS_Mac_OE_3016450944_222149_MIME_Part-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 17:13:07 EDT Subject: [PRR] Bernice Branch (Chicago Union Station) Bob, you said <> This is a new one on me. In what period of time was the Panhandle tracks on the north side of CUS referred to as the Bernice branch? I'm probably confusing this with PRR's Bernice Cutoff, which on some maps is labelled as the South Chicago & Southern. The Bernice Cutoff was the line "east" of CUS that allowed Panhandle trains to leave from CUS' "south end", pass through Englewood, and then exit the Fort Wayne main near Colehour yard for a southerly sashay of some miles down to Bernice IL, where it entered the Panhandle main for Logansport and points beyond. Putting together the Steam Powered Video Atlas maps of Chicago with the map accompanying John Swajkart's Train Watchers Guide to Chicago (Third Edition, 1987IIRC, this north-south piece of track diverged from the west end of Colehour at "Colehour Junction, and passed through: 1. Hegewisch - joining IHB 2. Wolf Lake Junction - where IHB left and headed east to the north end of IHB's Burnham Yard. 3. Burnham Crossing - is track referred to in TWG as the Bernice cutoff, crosses CSS&SB, C&WI, NS (NKP) just east of CSS' stylish and recently replaced Hegewich Station. Note: was here 2 weeks ago, hot bottle train is still running. Tower is gone. 2. Calumet Park Crossing - Bernice cutoff used to go on south to Bernice, now ends here with connection from PRR north to IHB east across B&OCT. Heavy east-west traffic here two weeks ago. Tower down, signs relocated to large relay house. 3. Bernice - where cutoff met Panhandle main coming out of CUS northend via Western Avenue, 59th Street Yard, and Dolton. Bernice was a wye connecton not far from Lansing IL, and lay just north of I-294. Outbound Panhandle passenger jobs turned left here to follow the main to Logansport. Still leaves me wondering - was the Panhandle main from CUS northend and down Chicago's near west side ever referred to as the "Bernice Branch"? Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 17:13:05 EDT Subject: [PRR] South Branch Bridge/21st Street Crossing Gize, I'm not sure I understood the comment that "South Branch Bridge wasn't a separate interlocking". My impression is that it controlled the bridge but no track junctions. Pictures in the new Pennsy streamliners book of the Broadway leaving town via this bridge remind me that the South Branch Bridge (a manned interlocking) stood just north of the monstrous 21st Street interlocking (undoubtedly NOT a Pennsy block station). 21st Street Crossing is where the Pennsy's main sailed right through the middle of multiple/multiple track crossings where the Chicago &Western Indiana curved across an IC main. To this mess was added an ATSF line that crossed the PRR on its way to join the C&WI, and a GM&O line that came from the southwest and joined the Pennsy to cross the bridge and approach Union Station. This crossing was made famous/notorious by a long-running Atlas HO track ad, plus railfan shots galore from the old days when trains from Dearborn and Union Stations passed this point. Even when I visited this spot in the early 70s, there were enough curved and straight diamonds in for 21st Street to qualify as the "National Special Trackwork Museum". And I remember South Branch cabin in PC green and still separately manned. The photos in the new book confirm that South Branch cabin, a 1-story wood structure, and 21st Street Tower, a (buff-colored, vitreous?) brick 2-story structure, stood fairly close together on the east side of the Pennsy track. What they don't show is that the Santa Fe coach yard used to be tucked into the southeast corner of 22nd Street, and beyond it was Chicago's China town. I guess I would need a PRR Chicago Terminal Division ETT to know whether the Pennsy considered South Branch Bridge to be 1. a block station 2. an interlocking 3. an interlocking station Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 19:49:05 -0400 From: "David J. Wartell" Subject: Re: [PRR] E-6 Atlantics Another option would be to use one of the online used book consortiums. These sites have used book dealers from all over the English speaking world. Two of them (Bibliofind http://www.bibliofind.com & Advanced Book Exchange http://www.abebooks.com) put you in direct contact with the bookseller while a third Alibris http://www.alibris.com acts as a middle man. I have good success with all three of them. I did have one experience with Alibris where they would not sell me the book because the bookseller misrepresented the condition of the book. I have seen Apex of the Atlantics listed, but I don't recall if I have seen it recently. I hope this helps in your search. Good luck. At 1:50 PM -0500 8/1/99, doug.kisala wrote: >Hello List, > >Apex of the Atlantics can be excruciatingly difficult to find. Check train >shows; at the Timonium shows, I've seen copies from $40 to $60. Also, Ron's >Books (914 967 7541, fax 914 967 7492) buys and sells out of print railroad >books. I was exceedingly lucky and found my copy at a local hobby shop when >I was living in Maryland. The book, long out of print, was expensive, but >worth it. Westing is a fantastic writer, and he explains highly technical >concepts in layman's terms, and makes them exciting. > >Good hunting!!! > >Doug > >endeimling@mindspring.com wrote: > > > I am looking for a copy of the Kalmbach book on PRR E-6 Atlantics. The > > title is "Apex of the Atlantics" by Fred Westing. Any lead? > > Gene Deimling > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Dave Wartell djwartel@ix.netcom.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 20:15:15 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] South Branch Bridge/21st Street Crossing In a message dated 8/2/99 4:23:50 PM Central Daylight Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << I guess I would need a PRR Chicago Terminal Division ETT to know whether the Pennsy considered South Branch Bridge to be 1. a block station 2. an interlocking 3. an interlocking station >> Per Chicago Division ETT No. 3, April 29, 1951, South Branch Bridge and Alton Junction were both marked as an interlocking and an interlocking station (same milepost) 22nd St. which I think is the one-story building you refer to, is East (by railroad direction, South by geography) by about 0.2 mile and is the block station. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] South Branch Bridge/21st Street Crossing Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 19:57:59 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of RickTipton@aol.com Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 5:13 PM To: bejm@eeg.ccf.org; Bobspf@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] South Branch Bridge/21st Street Crossing I guess I would need a PRR Chicago Terminal Division ETT to know whether the Pennsy considered South Branch Bridge to be 1. a block station 2. an interlocking 3. an interlocking station ================================= Western Region ETT No 6. Apr 30 1967 shows South Branch Bridge (MP 466.2) to be all three - Block Station, Interlocking and Interlocking Station (however, it did not have a radio). Also what you refer to as the 21st Tower was actually called Alton Jct. (also at MP 466.2) was only an interlocking and interlocking station - not a block station. ETT shows C&WI and IC crossing. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 20:56:54 EDT Subject: [PRR] SNAPPERS - A QUESTION In a message dated 8/2/99 2:50:04 PM EST, wbigler@stny.rr.com writes: << Re: Using an L-1 as a snapper on passenger trains, I believe there was a period when this was commonly done in Emporium PA up the hill to Keating Summit, on the Harrisburg/Buffalo line. I remember a photo somewhere - Staufer's PP3 runs in my mind, but I can't swear to that. I-1's (three of them) were commonly used for freight - the climb to Keating Summit was around 2.7% as I recall! Bill Bigler >> It was my impression that the term "Snapper" on the PRR referred to the use of a Yard Engine to start a heavy train, and would therefore, always be on the rear end. A "Snapper" would be used only within the Yard Limits - with no extra pay to the crew. It's my impression that the situation described above - using an extra engine up the hill - would be called a "Helper" - regardless of its position on the train, and once the extra engine crossed the Yard Limits the crew would be entitled to extra pay. COMMENTS? Dick Ross Cleveland, Ohio ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 20:01:12 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Bernice Branch (Chicago Union Station) In a message dated 8/2/99 4:24:58 PM Central Daylight Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << This is a new one on me. In what period of time was the Panhandle tracks on the north side of CUS referred to as the Bernice branch? >> You are correct that the line to CUS North End is the Panhandle line. I mispoke, based upon the labeling of the track diagrams "Colehour Jct. to Union Station Chicago (via Bernice)". Bernice is where the cutoff meets the Panhandle line. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 22:09:57 -0400 From: "John F. Ryan, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Cyber Chapter Answers to Questions I bet we could set up a chapter web site on one-list without incurring a necessity for dues. John Ryan Jerry Britton wrote: > > Along with all the responses to be included (thanks!), I've received > numerous queries about the Cyber Chapter. Here are a few details: > > > > > 1. I will not seek financial reimbursement to fund a private chapter mailing list or for serving a chapter web site http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com). If the chapter wants to develop new services which have costs associated with them, that is different. The chapter can pay me (or whoever) for implementation costs. A private chapter list would allow discussion of chapter business only, with historical/modeling discussion continuing on "PRR-Talk". I foresee a private area (via password) on the chapter web site which would gain members access to new benefits. These may include (finally) a "universal" web index, special product discounts from various vendors, etc. How and what it would include would be determined by the charter members via the private list. Dues? Perhaps. My thought is that we should have them, say $10 a year. True, we don't have the costs other chapters incur for meeting space, etc., but it could place us in an advantageous condition to sponsor restoration work that other chapters can only do via fund drives. Again, to be discussed by the charter members. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 21:47:16 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] E-6 Atlantics In a message dated 8/2/99 6:55:46 PM Central Daylight Time, djwartel@ix.netcom.com writes: << Another option would be to use one of the online used book consortiums. These sites have used book dealers from all over the English speaking world. Two of them (Bibliofind http://www.bibliofind.com & Advanced Book Exchange http://www.abebooks.com) put you in direct contact with the bookseller while a third Alibris http://www.alibris.com acts as a middle man. >> Also try Bookfinder.com. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Cyber Chapter Answers to Questions Date: Tue, 3 Aug 99 06:19:45 -0400 From: Jerry On 8/2/99 10:09 PM, John F. Ryan, Jr. (RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net) wrote: >> 1. I will not seek financial reimbursement to fund a private chapter mailing >>list or for serving a chapter web site http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com). If >>the chapter wants to develop new services which have costs associated with >>them, that is different. The chapter can pay me (or whoever) for >>implementation costs. > >I bet we could set up a chapter web site on one-list without incurring a >necessity for dues. John: Did you miss something, or did I post in another language? I was pretty clear in saying that a chapter web site and list would not cost the chapter anything! The membership will decide if there are dues. My thought was that since there will be little or no operating costs for running the chapter, it might be nice to still have dues so we can jump on opportunities to purchase/transport PRR rolling stock, etc., to a museum site for restoration. Last year there was such a case, the online group could not raise the funds in a timely manner, and the opportunity was lost. If we had a treasury, we could jump on such an opportunity. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 07:26:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Bernice Branch (Chicago Union Station) In a message dated 8/2/99 5:40:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, FRANKGARON@aol.com writes: << IIRC, The Bernice branch was always the line that split off the Panhandle north of Hartsdale and ran up to the Ft. Wayne line. Amtrak used to run over it (the train from Indy). Most is now abandoned, can anybody confirm it has been ripped up or not? >> John Munson and I were railfanning our way to St. Paul two weeks ago, and we saw the hot ladle car movement (2 ladles and spacers, I believe) go north on it at Burnham Crossing, which lies across the west end of South Shore's Burnham Yard. The tower is down. That train must shift over to IHB tracks north of Burnham Crossing, because the Steam Powered Video maps by Mike Walker show the north end of it up to Colehour abandoned. Going south a little on the Bernice Branch, we saw where it has been lifted south of Calumet Junction (crossing of B&OCT and IHB lines). Just south of this point, we could see where it used to cross Dolton Road. The nex ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 10:24:01 -0500 From: Larry Reynolds Subject: [PRR] Middle Division Boundry and I1's Hi: I'm new to this group, so if these questions have been answered before, I apologize. Here are my questions: Can anyone tell me what the correct western most boundary was on the Middle Division. Some say it was at Slope, others say it was at Cresson. Also, were the whistles of the I1's single chime, similar to European engines? Soundtrax is offering a peanut whistle sound that I believe comes close. Am I correct? Please help. Thanks: Larry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: endeimling@mindspring.com Subject: [PRR] E-6 Help Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 06:39:14 -0700 I would like to thank the many folks on who helped in my quest for a book on E-6 Atlantics. I have zeroed in on one. Gene Deimling ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 10:17:41 -0400 Subject: [PRR] More Photos Needed -- Northern Central Branch From: "Jerry Britton" For my PRRT&HS book "The Pennsylvania Railroad in York County, Pennsylvania", I still need a few photos of the Northern Central branch between York (city) and the Pennsylvania/Maryland state line. This would include the towns of New Freedom, Glen Rock, Hanover Junction, Seven Valleys, Smysers, etc. If anyone has such photos, in a PRR era, showing trains, structures, locos, or unusual rolling stock, please contact me. Full credit will be given to both the photographer and whose collection it is from (if different). I will need to borrow the photo(s) for scanning purposes, but quick turnaround is promised. If you don't want it out of your sight and you are local to Northern York County (where I live), you can come to my place to visit while I perform the scanning. It takes about four minutes to process each image. This book is tentatively scheduled to be published by the society and distributed at the 2000 Convention next May. I am receiving no financial reward from this project. Thank you. -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: [PRR] Inquiry: Whereabouts of Geo. Straits Circus Train Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 12:13:11 -0400 Does anyone on the list know the present location of the Geo. Straits Circus train? It was originally scheduled to be somehwere around Buffalo, Rochester, or Syracuse, NY at this time. Any help would be very much appreciated. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 09:36:57 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions Hi Doug and List Members, W/ respect to GG1 motor retirement on the NE corridor, Doug asked: > I also understand that the catenary power was changed from 25 to 60Hz. Did > this change happen immediately following retirement of the GG1's? I assume > that these two events were related. It apparently became uneconomical to continue operation with an oddball power line voltage and frequency (11,000 volts at 25 Hz), and so this was converted to 12,500 volts at 60Hz using the same catenary, but obviously with new equipment in terms of substations, etc. However, I believe the power conversion was gradual, and happened sections at a time over the course of years. I recall reading somewhere (this list?) that there is still one or more section(s) operating at the origional voltage somewhere on the corridor. > Any other information on the retirement of the GG1's is appreciated. Any > and all responses are welcome. Thanks for the information. I believe there is a GG1 web site out these in webland someplace. Anyone have the URL? Many GG1's still exist, for those wishing to visit & see them. - Claus (who got interested in the Pennsy by train-watching ex-PRR GG1's running on ex-NH trackage during the PC era!) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 11:44:04 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Middle Division Boundry and I1's From: "Jerry Britton" > I'm new to this group, so if these questions have been answered before, > I apologize. You shall be banished to the deepest, darkest dungeons with nothing but ExLax and water! No, seriously... >Here are my questions: Can anyone tell me what the > correct western most boundary was on the Middle Division. Some say it > was at Slope, others say it was at Cresson. I am 99% comfortable in saying that it was definitely on the east slope, not Cresson, and pretty sure it was in the neighborhood of SLOPE. I'm sure the exact answer will roll in shortly. FWIW, the eastern end was at BANKS, just west of Harrisburg. > Also, were the whistles of > the I1's single chime, similar to European engines? Soundtrax is > offering a peanut whistle sound that I believe comes close. Am I > correct? It is worth noting that lister Don Harper is working with Soundtrax on production of some new sound systems using recordings available from the PRRT&HS, with their permission, of course. I don't know how long it'll be till these products see the light of day, but they may be worth waiting for. Don, any update? -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Boilerbob7@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 12:59:56 EDT Subject: [PRR] Colehour-Bernice, current All track shown as abandonded in the Steam Power Videos atlas was pulled up a few years ago. A bicycle path is planned for it. The remaining track is used several times daily for "bottle trains" to the IHB-PRR line. There is also some freight operation to South Deering yard (CWI). A short section of new track extends to the south side of the Calumet River ("D" area) for a future barge-rail-truck facility. The short section indicated as "Wolf Lake Junction" still exists but obviously has not been used for years. Bob Leffingwell Chicago (Hegewisch) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FRANKGARON@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 13:17:47 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Colehour-Bernice, current Hi Bob: Any clues as to how to get a good shot of Indiana Harbor Canal tower? I'm liable to rent a boat or helicoptor! Frank ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 13:08:47 -0400 From: thompson@ridgeback.East.Sun.COM (Keith B. Thompson - Sun) Subject: [PRR] P5a details Hello, I'm been gathering info on P5as so that i can scratch build a P5a box cab and a modified. I am in need some detail information. Perhaps someone here can help. I'd like to know what the inside controls looked like for both the box cabs and the modifieds. Interior color information would be useful as well. I've been going by photos and scale drawings and have most of the outside details understood. One area though seems to excape me. On the side of both the box cabs and the modified were what looked like air vents. On some of the box cabs these areas had horizontal lovers. On others and the modifieds these areas look like vertical screens. None of my photos give clear detail of the screens. Can anyone describe the construction of these screens. I've not seen a real one close up. I assume there are some around somewhere. In case you are wondering, I'm building these in S scale to go along with the B1 i just finished. Thanks for any help, kbt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 12:48:25 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions From: "Jerry Britton" >> Any other information on the retirement of the GG1's is appreciated. Any >> and all responses are welcome. Thanks for the information. > > I believe there is a GG1 web site out these in webland someplace. > Anyone have the URL? Many GG1's still exist, for those wishing > to visit & see them. Try http://www.spikesys.com/gg1.html -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Middle Division Boundry and I1's Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 12:56:18 -0400 (EDT) > I'm new to this group, so if these questions have been answered before, > I apologize. Here are my questions: Can anyone tell me what the > correct western most boundary was on the Middle Division. Some say it > was at Slope, others say it was at Cresson. Also, were the whistles of > the I1's single chime, similar to European engines? Soundtrax is > offering a peanut whistle sound that I believe comes close. Am I > correct? Please help. Per PRR employe[e] timetables, it was SLOPE for quite a while. Do you have a specific time period in mind? -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 12:57:46 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: [PRR] Re: "Bernice branch" Guys (what, no ladies?): While I'm not doubting it has been written as such, the so-called Bernice branch was usually called the SC&S (the South Chicago & Southern), a proprietary line built in the early 1880s by the Pennsylvania Company to reach the Indiana town of East Chicago, and to provide a shortcut off the Pan Handle. While I have seen Railroad Gazette stories which indicate the Pennsylvania Lines intended to divert most of the Southwest system passenger trains up the SC&S shortly after the line was built, the cramped conditions at Chicago Union Station prevented implementation of that plan. Not until a new CUS was undertaken prior to WWI was this possible to any degree; and even then, locals continued to ply the Pan Handle's "back-door" entry to CUS through the late 'twenties. The SC&S also hosted an interesting looped commuter service with trains traversing its line via Hegewisch and E. Chicago, and over the Ft. Wayne, turning (or looping) at Clarke Jct. Samuel Insull's revitalization of the South Shore Line killed off the PL service around WWI. Unfortunately, it is all mostly gone, with only about a mile left in place from the site of Calumet Park interlocking north to service industry. And I believe this brief segment is used only by the IHB. The SC&S main (and the remaining Pan Handle) was lifted about 5 years ago after Amtrak rerouted The Cardinal. Previously the train utilized the SC&S and Pan Handle as far as Maynard and the CSX (ex-Monon). With the loss of this piece of track also came destruction of Hartsdale tower, where the PL passed under Hwy 41 in Schererville. Also long gone is the original SC&S line which included the so-called "Wolf Lake branch" from Hegewisch to Hammond, and the State Line & Indiana City east to Clarke. Don't quote me, but I do believe a segment of one of the SC&S branches (called Right of Ways in the ETTs) still exists south of Whiting, operated by the IHB. This is probably a lot more than you cared to know. Sorry, but there is always the "delete" button.. Regards, R. T. Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 10:41:41 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007A_01BEDD9C.C5788840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The GG-1s and all other locomotives supply(ed) air to the coaches for = braking purposes. They still do, although the method of applying the = brakes has changed over the years since the GG-1s did not have dynamic = braking the way the newer locomotives do. They now use what is called = "blended braking" which is a combination of dynamic and air braking. = Without getting too technical, suffice it to say there are several = variations of this method and it is used on rapid transit and mu cars as = well. On the subject of the conversion from 25HZ to 60. All of the = electrically powered vehicles constructed after about 1972 or so (I = believe the New Haven MUs may have been the first) were equipped with = multiple transformer taps where they could be easily changed from = 11,000V 25Hz to 12,500 60HZ to 25,000V 60HZ. I believe they could be = changed automatically on the fly if necessary. The GG-1s and E-44s = were never retrofitted. The E-60s were built with the conversion. So = when the conversion took place in the early 1980s, the GG-1s had to go = and hence cannot even be used in excursion service without an entirely = new transformer being installed, a major undertaking. Does this help? Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Doug and Marianne To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, August 02, 1999 7:10 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions =20 =20 With the retirement of the final GG1's in 1983 (I believe that = was the year), the last steam heated passenger cars were also retired. = Did these cars also have air brakes with air supplied from the = locomotive? =20 Is it correct that the replacement cars were heated, lighted, = and braked?? with electric power supplied from the locomotive (Head End = Power - HEP)? What kind of brakes do the new cars have? =20 I remember that Amtrak used a HEP supply car during the = transition period to power converted heritage and newer cars. Did NJ = Transit use any HEP cars with their GG1's? I assume that NJT retired = all of its steam heated cars at the time of the GG1 retirement. =20 I also understand that the catenary power was changed from 25 to = 60Hz. Did this change happen immediately following retirement of the = GG1's? I assume that these two events were related. =20 =20 Any other information on the retirement of the GG1's is = appreciated. Any and all responses are welcome. Thanks for the = information. =20 Doug N. =20 babal@slip.net =20 ------=_NextPart_000_007A_01BEDD9C.C5788840 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: GG1 retirement questions
The GG-1s and all other locomotives = supply(ed)=20 air to the coaches for braking purposes.  They still do, although = the=20 method of applying the brakes has changed over the years since the GG-1s = did not=20 have dynamic braking the way the newer locomotives do.  They now = use what=20 is called "blended braking" which is a combination of dynamic = and air=20 braking.  Without getting too technical, suffice it to say there = are=20 several variations of this method and it is used on rapid transit and mu = cars as=20 well.
 
On the subject of the conversion from 25HZ to = 60.  All of=20 the electrically powered vehicles constructed after about 1972 or so (I = believe=20 the New Haven MUs may have been the first) were equipped with multiple=20 transformer taps where they could be easily changed from 11,000V 25Hz to = 12,500=20 60HZ to 25,000V 60HZ.   I believe they could be changed = automatically=20 on the fly if necessary.   The GG-1s and E-44s were never=20 retrofitted.  The E-60s were built with the conversion.  So = when the=20 conversion took place in the early 1980s, the GG-1s had to go and hence = cannot=20 even be used in excursion service without an entirely new transformer = being=20 installed,  a major undertaking.
 
Does this help?
 
Bill V.
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Doug and Marianne <babal@slip.net>
To: = prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date:=20 Monday, August 02, 1999 7:10 PM
Subject: [PRR] Re: GG1 = retirement questions

With the retirement of the final GG1's in 1983 (I = believe=20 that was the year), the last steam heated passenger cars were = also=20 retired.  Did these cars also have air brakes with air = supplied=20 from the locomotive?

Is it correct that the replacement = cars were=20 heated, lighted, and braked?? with electric power supplied from = the=20 locomotive (Head End Power - HEP)?  What kind of brakes do = the new=20 cars have?

I remember that Amtrak used a HEP supply car = during=20 the transition period to power converted heritage and newer = cars.=20  Did NJ Transit use any HEP cars with their GG1's?  I = assume=20 that NJT retired all of its steam heated cars at the time of the = GG1=20 retirement.

I also understand that the catenary power was = changed=20 from 25 to 60Hz.  Did this change happen immediately = following=20 retirement of the GG1's?  I assume that these two events = were=20 related.  

Any other information on the retirement = of the=20 GG1's is appreciated.  Any and all responses are welcome.=20  Thanks for the information.

Doug=20 = N.

babal@slip.net

------=_NextPart_000_007A_01BEDD9C.C5788840-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 15:30:58 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: "Bernice branch" & Other Branch Histories From: "Jerry Britton" > While I'm not doubting it has been written as such, the so-called > Bernice branch was usually called the SC&S (the South Chicago & > Southern) If Richard, or someone, were to take the time to compile all of this Bernice Branch discussion into a branch history, I'd like to include it in the "Hobo's Guide to the PRR" on "Keystone Crossings". See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/guide/index.html That goes for other branches as well. Check out the current guide. If your favorite branch history isn't yet written, contact me for details about becoming an editor for that branch's history. There's a lot of good content there already, why not add to it? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 15:13:05 -0400 (EDT) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] Inquiry: Whereabouts of Geo. Straits Circus Train Hello Terry Just as a future reference,,,,,it is the James E. Strates train and the Erie County Fair and Expo (which they come to town for) is being held from August 11-22. According to the Strates Shows webpage at http://www.strates.com/route.htm July 23 - Aug. 1 Essex - Middle River Fair Baltimore, Maryland Aug. 11 - Aug. 22 Erie County Fair Hamburg, New York Which basically means they should be heading this way some time real soon. They usually come up the Buffalo Line from Harrisburg to Buffalo where the train is handed off to the Buffalo Southern at BC Junction. I havent heard anything about them as of today but I can imagine that it will be here sometime in the next few days. On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, W. Terry Stuart wrote: >Does anyone on the list know the present location of the Geo. Straits Circus >train? > >It was originally scheduled to be somehwere around Buffalo, Rochester, or >Syracuse, NY at this time. > >Any help would be very much appreciated. > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > W.J. Semanchuk-Enser Co-Network Admin - Technical Support alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 14:20:06 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] P5a details Keith, >I'm been gathering info on P5as so that i can >scratch build a P5a box cab and a modified. Way to go! (good luck on the modified ...getting the contours right can be a bugger!). BTW, asre you going to scratchbuild the driver centers? I'm having a tough time finding appropriate drivers in HO. >I'd like to know what the inside controls looked >like for both the box cabs and the modifieds. Interior >color information would be useful as well. I believe that the interior color was a light, "apple green" as on steam locos. Remember that the bodies of these locos are DGLE and the frames, pilots and running gear are black. >I've been going by photos and scale drawings and >have most of the outside details understood. One >area though seems to excape me. On the side of >both the box cabs and the modified were what looked >like air vents. Traction motor blower vents...I look tonight for the differences you mention >I've not seen a real one close up. I assume there >are some around somewhere. One was saved. One of the only two P5 locos (the prototypes for the P5a) #4700 is in residence at the St. Louis transportation museum. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] P5a details Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 15:57:19 -0400 Give me a few days and I will dig out the operator's manual for the P-5a's and I am sure there is a photo in there of the operator's controls. I will scan it and send it to you. Bare with me til I find the book though! Bill Volkmer -----Original Message----- From: Keith B. Thompson - Sun To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 2:34 PM Subject: [PRR] P5a details > >Hello, > >I'm been gathering info on P5as so that i can >scratch build a P5a box cab and a modified. I >am in need some detail information. Perhaps >someone here can help. > >I'd like to know what the inside controls looked >like for both the box cabs and the modifieds. Interior >color information would be useful as well. > >I've been going by photos and scale drawings and >have most of the outside details understood. One >area though seems to excape me. On the side of >both the box cabs and the modified were what looked >like air vents. On some of the box cabs these areas >had horizontal lovers. On others and the modifieds these >areas look like vertical screens. None of my photos give >clear detail of the screens. Can anyone describe the >construction of these screens. > >I've not seen a real one close up. I assume there >are some around somewhere. > >In case you are wondering, I'm building these in >S scale to go along with the B1 i just finished. > >Thanks for any help, >kbt > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 16:58:45 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Middle Division Boundry and I1's In a message dated 8/3/99 10:38:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, reynoldl@gte.net writes: << Can anyone tell me what the correct western most boundary was on the Middle Division. Some say it was at Slope, others say it was at Cresson. >> My 1946 PRR blueprint of Altoona Yard shows it to be just west of 24th Street, Slope is East of 24th Street. CT 1000E shows it to be Mile Post 131.8. Harold Modeling the Middle Division in 1916 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 16:23:12 EDT Subject: [PRR] Pile drivers on the PRR Gentlemen, Ray at Orange Blossom Hobbies in Miami needs to paint an OMI pile driver for PRR. His questions were three: 1. How late did these steam-powered pile drivers stay in service, and where were they used? 2. Where can he locate pics of them, either in service or in transit. 3. What kind of tender would have been assigned to this pile driver, and would it have been black or MoW yellow? My indexing comes up a little short on this question, so I though I'd ask the experts--- anybody know where we can find the answers? Rick Tipton Rowing frantically toward the end of Lot Three's hardware auction, including 4 PRR oval builders' plates. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: "Bernice branch" Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 15:59:54 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Richard Wallis Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 1:58 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Re: "Bernice branch" South Chicago & Southern Railroad Company Chronological Statement of the Construction Thereof - Page 747 Volume III C&C PRR 1945 Report 1887- Colehour to Bernice,IL, 9.29 miles by the SC&S RR Co (No 1) Hegewisch, IL to IL-IN State Line, 1.32 miles by SC&S RR Co (No 1) 1888- IL-IN State Line east of Hegewisch, IL to East Chicago, IN, 3.5 miles by State Line and Indiana City Railway Co. 1893- East Chicago, IL to Clarke Jct, IL, 4.51 miles by SL&IC Rwy. Co. 1895- 100th Street, Chicago to Hegewish, IL, 4.43 miles by The Calumet River Railway Co. 1903- Clarke Jct. to Pine Jct, IN, 1.32 miles by SC&S RR Co (No 2) Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 18:21:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] South Branch Bridge/21st Street Crossing In a message dated 8/3/99 10:52:34 AM Central Daylight Time, RickTipton writes: << I don't know about 22nd St; since I don't remember it, and it doesn't appear in a zillion pictures, it's hard to say. >> In the dim recesses of my mind I seem to remember a photo of a conductor stopping at a shack to pick up train orders-I have to find the photo to see if it was the 21st St. single-story or the mysterious 22nd St. shack. Map I have does have outlines of a shed just South of 22nd St. and East of the Pennsy main 1953-1960 era anyway. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 17:40:00 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions --Boundary_(ID_1s40wpXdEGuzs+T0WdMBJQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello to Doug N and the list, My Keystone magazines are still in storage, but I can dredge up the following from memory. The ex-PRR Northeast Corridor is, to this day, 25Hz; the issue of the Keystone AFTER the Sunnyside Yard issue had this correction. If one could find a substitute for PCB (Polychlorinated biphenyls) to put into a GG1's main transformer, perhaps one could again visit the Northeast Corridor. The stuff dreams are made of.... The January 1984 Railfan and Railroad had a great photo feature on the GG1 retirement, and I'm sure others did as well. From what I recall, 4877 (restored to the tuscan red 5 stripe scheme) came up lame, and one of her black-painted sisters helped her retire the class. The last Amtrak GG1s were retired in 1981. One shot of ex-PRR 4935 raises some questions. She's shown on page 246 of Pennsy Power III pulling five Amfleet cars and a heritage car. Perhaps the GG1 electrical system was compatible with the Amfleet cars (or that heritage car at the other end could be the HEP car, but why separate it from the locomotive). Another shot on page 246 shows 3 Amtrak GG1s pulling several Amfleet cars. This is a pathetically small sample, but my guess is that the GG1s were compatible electrically somehow with the Amfleet cars. I don't recall NJT owning any HEP cars; the lightweight steam heated cars that supplanted the ex-CNJ coaches on the NJCL (the modern incarnation of my beloved New York and Long Branch) remained in service until replaced with the Arrow and Comet series HEP-compatible cars and F40PHs that arrived in 1983. Hope this helps!! Doug Kisala Doug and Marianne wrote: > > > With the retirement of the final GG1's in 1983 (I believe > that was the year), the last steam heated passenger cars > were also retired. Did these cars also have air brakes with > air supplied from the locomotive? > > Is it correct that the replacement cars were heated, > lighted, and braked?? with electric power supplied from the > locomotive (Head End Power - HEP)? What kind of brakes do > the new cars have? > > I remember that Amtrak used a HEP supply car during the > transition period to power converted heritage and newer > cars. Did NJ Transit use any HEP cars with their GG1's? I > assume that NJT retired all of its steam heated cars at the > time of the GG1 retirement. > > I also understand that the catenary power was changed from > 25 to 60Hz. Did this change happen immediately following > retirement of the GG1's? I assume that these two events > were related. > > Any other information on the retirement of the GG1's is > appreciated. Any and all responses are welcome. Thanks for > the information. > > Doug N. > > babal@slip.net > > --Boundary_(ID_1s40wpXdEGuzs+T0WdMBJQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello to Doug N and the list,

My Keystone magazines are still in storage, but I can dredge up the following from memory.  The ex-PRR Northeast Corridor is, to this day, 25Hz; the issue of the Keystone AFTER the Sunnyside Yard issue had this correction.  If one could find a substitute for PCB (Polychlorinated biphenyls) to put into a GG1's main transformer, perhaps one could again visit the Northeast Corridor.   The stuff dreams are made of....

The January 1984 Railfan and Railroad had a great photo feature on the GG1 retirement, and I'm sure others did as well.  From what I recall, 4877 (restored to the tuscan red 5 stripe scheme) came up lame, and one of her black-painted sisters helped her retire the class.

The last Amtrak GG1s were retired in 1981.  One shot of ex-PRR 4935 raises some questions.  She's shown on page 246 of Pennsy Power III pulling five Amfleet cars and a heritage car.  Perhaps the GG1 electrical system was compatible with the Amfleet cars (or that heritage car at the other end could be the HEP car, but why separate it from the locomotive).

Another shot on page 246 shows 3 Amtrak GG1s pulling several Amfleet cars.  This is a pathetically small sample, but my guess is that the GG1s were compatible electrically somehow with the Amfleet cars.

I don't recall NJT owning any HEP cars; the lightweight steam heated cars that supplanted the ex-CNJ coaches on the NJCL (the modern incarnation of my beloved New York and Long Branch) remained in service until replaced with the Arrow and Comet series HEP-compatible cars and F40PHs that arrived in 1983.

Hope this helps!!

Doug Kisala
 
 

Doug and Marianne wrote:

 
With the retirement of the final GG1's in 1983 (I believe that was the year), the last steam heated passenger cars were also retired.  Did these cars also have air brakes with air supplied from the locomotive?

Is it correct that the replacement cars were heated, lighted, and braked?? with electric power supplied from the locomotive (Head End Power - HEP)?  What kind of brakes do the new cars have?

I remember that Amtrak used a HEP supply car during the transition period to power converted heritage and newer cars.  Did NJ Transit use any HEP cars with their GG1's?  I assume that NJT retired all of its steam heated cars at the time of the GG1 retirement.

I also understand that the catenary power was changed from 25 to 60Hz.  Did this change happen immediately following retirement of the GG1's?  I assume that these two events were related.

Any other information on the retirement of the GG1's is appreciated.  Any and all responses are welcome.  Thanks for the information.

Doug N.

babal@slip.net
 

--Boundary_(ID_1s40wpXdEGuzs+T0WdMBJQ)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 17:24:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Middle Division Boundry and I1's As a follow-up I have a track Chart the shows the Division Post at signal bridge SB2373 right in front of "Slope," 237.46 miles from Philadelphia. The eastern end is at mile 1825 feet beyond mile marker 113 from Philly. As Jerry indicated, that places it at "Banks" Harold Modeling the Middle Division in 1916 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: endeimling@mindspring.com Subject: [PRR] 130P75 Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 21:12:18 -0700 I noticed a hatch on the side of K-4 #612's tender. What is the purpose of this door/hatch? Do all 130P75 have this feature? Gene Deimling ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 00:04:36 -0400 From: John W Rosenbauer Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions dougkisala wrote: > > Hello to Doug N and the list, > The last Amtrak GG1s were retired in 1981. One shot of ex-PRR 4935 > raises some questions. She's shown on page 246 of Pennsy Power III > pulling five Amfleet cars and a heritage car. Perhaps the GG1 > electrical system was compatible with the Amfleet cars (or that > heritage car at the other end could be the HEP car, but why separate > it from the locomotive). I believe HEP is 480V 3 phase. Since the electrification is only single phase some form of power generation or conversion would be necessary to provide Head End Power. Were generator sets or converters ever applied to GG1s?? I have not heard of any such application. If the heritage car was provided power it wouldn't matter which end it was on. Have fun, J.W.Rosenbauer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] NEC and 25 vs 60 Hz From: Fred G Rea Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 22:15:35 EDT I have been noticing the GG1 thread and the discussion of what is in the overhead. I can see how one might carefully transition from 11KV to 12.5 KV in sections overtime. However, the change from 25Hz to 60 Hz seem hard to imagine. As a retired EE who used to make transformers many years ago, I am concerned about any attempt to run 60 Hz equipment on 25 Hz. It would "saturate" the iron. That is, it would magnetically over load the cores of transformers and rotating machines. The only way to avoid that would be to lower all voltages by a factor of 25/60 or less than one half. Was this change made or, as a recent post suggests, is the system still 25 Hz? If it was made, what are details of the steps taken to do it? While I am a life long (61 years) rail fan and lover of the PRR and particularly GG1s, I was out of the loop most of the 80's and what not aware of any of this other than the retirement of the GG1s. Fred Rea ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 23:20:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Name??? Bill, List. I havn't been reading all the emails lately because I am down here in Sunny Daytona Beach watching all the female cabooses. Like a dummy I brought my webtv omputer with me. I see you are wanting to do a talk style format too. Still looking for a name? How about THE WHISTLE POST? Kinda serious I know but I figured to leave the funny ones to the rest of you guys. Now, I need some sleep so I can hit the beach again tomorrow.......Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 22:52:55 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 retirement questions Howdy All: - just my two cents worth We seem to have many different versions of the something here. Is the Harrisburg extension still at 11 kV @ 25 Hz - As far as I can tell no transformers have been replaced, no circuit breakers have been replaced and no commercial feeds are in place at the Enola substation and its almost all gone too. PE is making all the power for this line in the Philadelphia area, since all the generator sets have been removed along with the substation equipment at Safe Harbor - more than likely Arsenal Bridge is supplying all the 25 Hz left. So my bet is the Harrisburg line is still and will remain 25 Hz. I would also support the notion that the Harrisburg line electrification is on the way out - at least past Downingtown. I can't remember the last time I saw anything other than an ugly GE or F40 with a train out this way. Also the state of PA wants to add more diesel powered train sets. I have lived next to this line in Mount Joy for about 12 years now. The last AEM7 that I remember seeing was back when the F40s where still common. The multi-tapped transformer is the norm in the AEM/ALP and E60s. As stated by Bill all electrically powered vehicles have had this since '72. The new stuff being installed to boston is setup for 25 kV @ 60 Hz. With Conrails decision to end electric operation - Amtrak (even though they forced the end) was still in bad way having to purchase its electrical power from a closed source. It stands to reason that Amtrak et all, wanted to reduce their dependency on specialized equipment and suppliers by switching to the more standard 60 Hz. The cost justification had to be based on the ability to purchase "standard" power on the open market at a substantial savings and get out of the power manufacturing business ( Long Island City) altogether. Did PE and the other suppliers have a surcharge for 25 Hz power? On the Corridor where increased horsepower requirements have necessitated the conversion to 60 Hz to supply the need. Since there is a direct connection between power and cycles/minute (Hertz or Hz), it would also be reasonable to propose an increase in efficiency (increased efficiency = more horsepower/ kwh) helped the decision also. So this all brings us back to the question of why was the GG1 retired. My vote goes to the tired frames and just plan worn out. Don't get me wrong, I have the greatest respect for the GG1, the men who built, ran and maintained them. They where/are the greatest examples of mainline electric engines ever (IMHO). I have tried to think of other main line high speed locomotives that have had such a career, and can think of none - steam, diesel or other (high speed continuos service - not resurrected or switching - yes there are early GPs out there but how many have been doing 60 mph for 40+ years - straight SD40s are just now going over the 30 year mark - how many of them are still out there). It would be nice to see a GG1 run again with a new transformer (the remedial cost at their scrapping most have been in the several thousand a piece). I can't blame it all on the conversion to 60 Hz, but I bet it helped. I'll take my PRR electrification in the late 50's to early 60's, where double and triple headed G's worked up the river and still did 70 to 90 something through Mount Joy. Cos ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] South Branch Bridge/21st Street Crossing Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 21:59:16 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bobspf@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 6:22 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] South Branch Bridge/21st Street Crossing 22nd Street (MP 466.0) appears as an entry in the 1967 ETT Western Region Main Line Pittsburgh to Chicago station pages, between 40th St interlocking, and interlocking station (MP463.8) and Alton Jct interlocking and interlocking station (MP 466.2) From this I would surmise that at one time it had some sort of status or was a location point for some reason. I though Bob Z's previous post from Chi Div ETT c. 1951 listed it as a block station? Al =================================== In a message dated 8/3/99 10:52:34 AM Central Daylight Time, RickTipton writes: << I don't know about 22nd St; since I don't remember it, and it doesn't appear in a zillion pictures, it's hard to say. >> In the dim recesses of my mind I seem to remember a photo of a conductor stopping at a shack to pick up train orders-I have to find the photo to see if it was the 21st St. single-story or the mysterious 22nd St. shack. Map I have does have outlines of a shed just South of 22nd St. and East of the Pennsy main 1953-1960 era anyway. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 21:34:30 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] P5a details Thank you for the information, Bruce...I would likd to add another question: What is the function of the flat-sided but tapered tanks under the carbodies, along the sides, at one or more ends (not the round air reservoirs, if that is what THEY are)? My guess is boiler fuel tanks, but I have always wondered. Keith, Trains Mag for September, 1975, ran a good article on the P-5a. Sadly, there are no pix of the cab interior, but the article does say the cabs on the boxcabs were open into the carbody. I will be happy to send you a copy if you like. Steve Bartlett Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. wrote: > > Keith, > > >I'm been gathering info on P5as so that i can > >scratch build a P5a box cab and a modified. > > Way to go! (good luck on the modified ...getting the contours right can > be a bugger!). BTW, asre you going to scratchbuild the driver centers? > I'm having a tough time finding appropriate drivers in HO. > > >I'd like to know what the inside controls looked > >like for both the box cabs and the modifieds. Interior > >color information would be useful as well. > > I believe that the interior color was a light, "apple green" as on steam > locos. Remember that the bodies of these locos are DGLE and the frames, > pilots and running gear are black. > > >I've been going by photos and scale drawings and > >have most of the outside details understood. One > >area though seems to excape me. On the side of > >both the box cabs and the modified were what looked > >like air vents. > > Traction motor blower vents...I look tonight for the differences you mention > > >I've not seen a real one close up. I assume there > >are some around somewhere. > > One was saved. One of the only two P5 locos (the prototypes for the P5a) > #4700 is in residence at the St. Louis transportation museum. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 00:37:40 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 retirement questions Are you sure the gen sets and substation have been removed from Safe Harbor ? The reason I say this is that Amtrak still owns the cat poles and high tension lines along the A&S and the lines are still energized. All the groups that want to turn the row into a rail-trail have run up against this problem of the live transmission lines. It's my belief that the western end of the electrification ( Parkesburg to Harris ) is fed from Safe Harbor. Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] L1 Passenger Snappers (was :Book:Pennsy Streamliners) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 00:00:52 -0500 L1's as helpers on passenger trains on Horseshoe Curve have appeared in at least a couple of videos. The Keystone of September 1980 has a good article on the L1. There are two photos of L1's with passenger bar style pilots, 139 on the cover and 6306. The caption indicates that "During the 1940's some L1s got passenger pilots for use on mail and express and troop trains." Both photos show the engines equipped with 90F75 tenders. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 00:22:12 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions From: "Doug and Marianne" These questions seem to have raised more questions than answers. Despite the photo in Pennsy Power III (P246), most other photos of GG1's hauling Amfleet cars include an HEP car. The photo may have been a deadhead move of some sort. The HEP car seen in other photos (The Remarkable GG1, Page 71, among others) was a short baggage car with a large expanse of louvers at one end. I assume that an HEP car consisted of a diesel engine and generator. I believe that the inside of a GG1 was much to crowded to add any new equipment. The Pennsy's Keystone tubular train was regularly hauled by GG1's and it had its own HEP power car. It has been stated that Amtrak ended GG1 operations in 1981. I believe that NJ Transit operated them at least into 1983. I remember hearing something about corrosion problems with their body frames, but I think that the ultimate reason for their retirement was changing technology. The 25 or 60hz issue was supposedly one reason, the other was the end of steam heated passenger cars. All of Amtrak's Heritage cars were converted to HEP, as the Amfleet cars were built. I believe the reasons for the conversions were simplified car maintenance and weight reduction with the elimination of individual wheel-activated generators and storage batteries on each car. The steam heated cars were one of railroadings last connections with the era of the steam locomotive. I believe Amtrak planned to retire the GG1's earlier, but the EP60's had tracking problems at high speed. Not until the development of the AEM7 was there an electric locomotive that could do what a GG1 did. It took over 40 years to produce something better. Doug Nelson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 07:49:21 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01BEDE4D.DCC37E40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am pretty sure the northeast corridor is all 60 HZ. I know that when = the NJT converted from DC to AC they went to 60HZ so it would make sense = for the rest of the deal to go at the same time. Originally the founding fathers wanted everything to be 50,000 VAC 60HZ = like they do in Europe but the close clearances in Penn Station NY = prevented that so they decided on 25,000 for the "Eastern US" standard = and 50KV for the "Western US Standard" as in Black Mesa and Lake Powell, = Deserette Western, B.C. Rail etc. 25KV was still too much for good ole Penn Station so 12.5 was adopted. = I think from New HAven to Boston they plan on 25KV. 60 HZ. Anyone else care to chime in? -----Original Message----- From: doug.kisala To: Doug and Marianne ; prr-talk@dsop.com = Date: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 7:33 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions =20 =20 Hello to Doug N and the list,=20 My Keystone magazines are still in storage, but I can dredge up the = following from memory. The ex-PRR Northeast Corridor is, to this day, = 25Hz; the issue of the Keystone AFTER the Sunnyside Yard issue had this = correction. If one could find a substitute for PCB (Polychlorinated = biphenyls) to put into a GG1's main transformer, perhaps one could again = visit the Northeast Corridor. The stuff dreams are made of....=20 The January 1984 Railfan and Railroad had a great photo feature on = the GG1 retirement, and I'm sure others did as well. From what I = recall, 4877 (restored to the tuscan red 5 stripe scheme) came up lame, = and one of her black-painted sisters helped her retire the class.=20 The last Amtrak GG1s were retired in 1981. One shot of ex-PRR 4935 = raises some questions. She's shown on page 246 of Pennsy Power III = pulling five Amfleet cars and a heritage car. Perhaps the GG1 = electrical system was compatible with the Amfleet cars (or that heritage = car at the other end could be the HEP car, but why separate it from the = locomotive).=20 Another shot on page 246 shows 3 Amtrak GG1s pulling several Amfleet = cars. This is a pathetically small sample, but my guess is that the = GG1s were compatible electrically somehow with the Amfleet cars.=20 I don't recall NJT owning any HEP cars; the lightweight steam heated = cars that supplanted the ex-CNJ coaches on the NJCL (the modern = incarnation of my beloved New York and Long Branch) remained in service = until replaced with the Arrow and Comet series HEP-compatible cars and = F40PHs that arrived in 1983.=20 Hope this helps!!=20 Doug Kisala=20 =20 =20 Doug and Marianne wrote:=20 =20 With the retirement of the final GG1's in 1983 (I believe = that was the year), the last steam heated passenger cars were also = retired. Did these cars also have air brakes with air supplied from the = locomotive?=20 Is it correct that the replacement cars were heated, = lighted, and braked?? with electric power supplied from the locomotive = (Head End Power - HEP)? What kind of brakes do the new cars have?=20 I remember that Amtrak used a HEP supply car during the = transition period to power converted heritage and newer cars. Did NJ = Transit use any HEP cars with their GG1's? I assume that NJT retired = all of its steam heated cars at the time of the GG1 retirement.=20 I also understand that the catenary power was changed from = 25 to 60Hz. Did this change happen immediately following retirement of = the GG1's? I assume that these two events were related.=20 Any other information on the retirement of the GG1's is = appreciated. Any and all responses are welcome. Thanks for the = information.=20 Doug N.=20 babal@slip.net=20 ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01BEDE4D.DCC37E40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am pretty sure the northeast = corridor is all=20 60 HZ.  I know that when the NJT converted from DC to AC they went = to 60HZ=20 so it would make sense for the rest of the deal to go at the same=20 time.
 
Originally the founding fathers wanted everything to = be 50,000=20 VAC 60HZ like they do in Europe but the close clearances in Penn Station = NY=20 prevented that so they decided on 25,000 for the "Eastern US" = standard=20 and 50KV for the "Western US Standard" as in Black Mesa and = Lake=20 Powell, Deserette Western, B.C. Rail etc.
 
25KV was still too much for good ole Penn Station so = 12.5 was=20 adopted.  I think from New HAven to Boston they plan on 25KV. 60=20 HZ.
 
Anyone else care to chime in?
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 doug.kisala <doug.kisala@mciworld.com>=
To:=20 Doug and Marianne <babal@slip.net>; prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date:=20 Tuesday, August 03, 1999 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] = Re: GG1=20 retirement questions

Hello to Doug N and the = list,=20

My Keystone magazines are still in storage, but I can dredge up = the=20 following from memory.  The ex-PRR Northeast Corridor is, to = this day,=20 25Hz; the issue of the Keystone AFTER the Sunnyside Yard issue had = this=20 correction.  If one could find a substitute for PCB = (Polychlorinated=20 biphenyls) to put into a GG1's main transformer, perhaps one could = again=20 visit the Northeast Corridor.   The stuff dreams are made = of....=20

The January 1984 Railfan and Railroad had a great photo feature = on the=20 GG1 retirement, and I'm sure others did as well.  From what I = recall,=20 4877 (restored to the tuscan red 5 stripe scheme) came up lame, and = one of=20 her black-painted sisters helped her retire the class.=20

The last Amtrak GG1s were retired in 1981.  One shot of = ex-PRR 4935=20 raises some questions.  She's shown on page 246 of Pennsy Power = III=20 pulling five Amfleet cars and a heritage car.  Perhaps the GG1=20 electrical system was compatible with the Amfleet cars (or that = heritage car=20 at the other end could be the HEP car, but why separate it from the=20 locomotive).=20

Another shot on page 246 shows 3 Amtrak GG1s pulling several = Amfleet=20 cars.  This is a pathetically small sample, but my guess is = that the=20 GG1s were compatible electrically somehow with the Amfleet cars.=20

I don't recall NJT owning any HEP cars; the lightweight steam = heated cars=20 that supplanted the ex-CNJ coaches on the NJCL (the modern = incarnation of my=20 beloved New York and Long Branch) remained in service until replaced = with=20 the Arrow and Comet series HEP-compatible cars and F40PHs that = arrived in=20 1983.=20

Hope this helps!!=20

Doug Kisala
 
 =20

Doug and Marianne wrote:=20

 =20
With the retirement of the final GG1's in 1983 (I=20 believe that was the year), the last steam heated passenger = cars=20 were also retired.  Did these cars also have air brakes = with=20 air supplied from the locomotive?=20

Is it correct that the replacement cars were heated, = lighted, and=20 braked?? with electric power supplied from the locomotive = (Head End=20 Power - HEP)?  What kind of brakes do the new cars = have?=20

I remember that Amtrak used a HEP supply car during the=20 transition period to power converted heritage and newer = cars. =20 Did NJ Transit use any HEP cars with their GG1's?  I = assume=20 that NJT retired all of its steam heated cars at the time of = the GG1=20 retirement.=20

I also understand that the catenary power was changed = from 25 to=20 60Hz.  Did this change happen immediately following = retirement=20 of the GG1's?  I assume that these two events were = related.=20

Any other information on the retirement of the GG1's is=20 appreciated.  Any and all responses are welcome.  = Thanks=20 for the information.=20

Doug N.=20

babal@slip.net =

------=_NextPart_000_004F_01BEDE4D.DCC37E40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Re: re P5a controls photo Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 07:58:10 -0400 I have found the operator's manual and while it is OVER an inch thick (it includes the GG-1 too), it contains no photo of the cab interior. However, there are a couple of nice captioned detail photos of the roofs which I will scan and put up on the web. Bill -----Original Message----- From: Robert A. Boyd To: herzog1@gate.net Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 2:41 AM Subject: re P5a controls photo >Say Bill, > >When you do find that tech manual, if you could send me a copy of the cab >photo I will include it in the PRR electrification topic, which I hope to >do some updating on. > >Thank You, > >Bob > >Robert A. Boyd > >======== >Those Classic Trains >"Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" > >"The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service >http://www.thoseclassictrains.com > >history - technology - modeling - sources >Classified Ads - Bubba's Web Resources - and Psycho too! >======== > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 08:09:05 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions Don't forget that Pennsy had the wonderful Keystone train, with its HEP car - built way back in 1956! I had the privilege to ride this train with my father in 1967 to New York. I remember sitting in the belly of the car and all the smoke! Cos ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 07:39:04 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Cyber Chapter - Name of Chapter? From: "Jerry Britton" The following query is ONLY for those individuals who have expressed their interest in chartering a "cyber" chapter of the PRRT&HS. These folks MUST be members in good standing of the national organization. A list of these folks is now on the "cyber" chapter site at http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com. Please, ONLY individuals on the charter member list should respond, and please respond direct...I will summarize. What name do we want to give to the "cyber" chapter? "Cyber" is acceptable to me, and seems appropriate, but do we want to consider anything else? (One member suggested that a club PRR layout could include the fictional town of Cyber!) What I am getting at is that if we can nail down the name via this list, I will create a chapter talk list where chapter business can be addressed in its own forum. However, due to what's involved in the initial setup of a list, I'd just as soon get the name right to begin with! My apologies to the balance of the list subscribers for this minor interruption. To reiterate, once the chapter is chartered by the PRRT&HS, membership to the chapter may include non-national members, at the discretion of the chapter. -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 07:53:25 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Pile drivers on the PRR Rick asked: >Ray at Orange Blossom Hobbies in Miami needs to paint an OMI pile driver for >PRR. His questions were three: >1. How late did these steam-powered pile drivers stay in service, and where >were they used? Hmmmm, I'd be hard pressed to say that the Overland model was "steam powered" - maybe we're talking aboput different models...anyhoo, the one I'm thinking of entered service AFTER WWII, and I think actually the '50s. I think they were used all over the system, and survived into the merger and may still be around. >2. Where can he locate pics of them, either in service or in transit. >3. What kind of tender would have been assigned to this pile driver, and >would it have been black or MoW yellow? There is a photo in the "Color Guide...", vol 1, showing pile driver #498200 in the transit position, painted black, with yellow grabs, white lettering, no tender (Heck, I think the thing is deisel powered), and a highly modified FGRA idler flat #488873, painted yellow with black lettering. I forgot to write down date and location, but I believe it was the '60s. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 4 Aug 99 07:47:05 EDT From: "PETER TYRRELL JR." Subject: [PRR] NEC and 25 vs 60 Hz Fred you must have spent more time as a train fan then a transformer design engineer. When I designed transformers, the frequency determined the amount of iron in the core. The lower the frequency the more iron. Any transformer designed for 25 cycles will work fine at 60 cycles. You are thinking backwards. But then again that comes with advanced age. P.S. I am old enough to remember going to see Streamlined k4 3768 on a second grade field trip. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] NEC and 25 vs 60 Hz Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:09:06 -0400 (EDT) Fred G Rea scribit: > avoid that would be to lower all voltages by a factor of 25/60 or less > than one half. Was this change made or, as a recent post suggests, is > the system still 25 Hz? Fred et al., the trend seems to be to go to 60 Hz at 25 kV, at least to get there _eventually_. There have been so many changes recently that I've lost track of them all, but many sections seem to have gone from 11 kV to 12.5 kV. Note that this is suspiciously 1/2 of the 25 kV I mentioned above -- perhaps a center tap on a transformer that will ultimately, and eventually, be switched to the end tap and put out 25 kV??? ;-) As to 60 Hz changes, that has occurred as well -- *IIRC*, the New Haven trackage. Anyway, at this point, I'll defer to the more knowledgeable. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 08:02:51 -0400 One of Amtrak's greatest blunders was their purchasing the first fleet of SDP-40f s with steam generators (in 1972) knowing that they would be obsolete in a few years and overlooking the fact that enough steam generator cars existed around the country to temporarily heat the remaining steam heated cars. The Keystone tubular train did have a Hercules power car for the tubular equipment but the PRR early on had to install steam trainlines under them so that the Silver Meteor et al could be tacked on behind them. -----Original Message----- From: Doug and Marianne To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 3:32 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions >These questions seem to have raised more questions than answers. Despite >the photo in Pennsy Power III (P246), most other photos of GG1's hauling >Amfleet cars include an HEP car. The photo may have been a deadhead move of >some sort. > >The HEP car seen in other photos (The Remarkable GG1, Page 71, among others) >was a short baggage car with a large expanse of louvers at one end. I >assume that an HEP car consisted of a diesel engine and generator. > >I believe that the inside of a GG1 was much to crowded to add any new >equipment. The Pennsy's Keystone tubular train was regularly hauled by >GG1's and it had its own HEP power car. > >It has been stated that Amtrak ended GG1 operations in 1981. I believe that >NJ Transit operated them at least into 1983. > >I remember hearing something about corrosion problems with their body >frames, but I think that the ultimate reason for their retirement was >changing technology. The 25 or 60hz issue was supposedly one reason, the >other was the end of steam heated passenger cars. All of Amtrak's Heritage >cars were converted to HEP, as the Amfleet cars were built. I believe the >reasons for the conversions were simplified car maintenance and weight >reduction with the elimination of individual wheel-activated generators and >storage batteries on each car. > >The steam heated cars were one of railroadings last connections with the era >of the steam locomotive. > >I believe Amtrak planned to retire the GG1's earlier, but the EP60's had >tracking problems at high speed. Not until the development of the AEM7 was >there an electric locomotive that could do what a GG1 did. It took over 40 >years to produce something better. > > >Doug Nelson > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 07:56:32 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 retirement questions Safe Harbor went through a major rebuild about 3 or 4 years ago. All the 25 Hz gen. sets were removed and all the turbines upgraded too. The 132 kv single phase transmission system is still in place as a redundant feed system for the NEC and Harrisburg line. It also supplied signal line voltage for the C&PD, A&S, and Lancaster Branch. Conrail appears to have begun a replacement of sorts, witness the new signals at Cola, and the stand alone masts further down river at Port and other places along the river instead of the catenary supported signals. Most of these signals have been replaced or upgraded within the last 5 years or so. Most were upgraded with new position light installations, even Cola was originally replaced with position lights, only when Conrail did it's clearance project did it remove the signal bridge at Cola and replace with the tri-colors. Just my observations Cos KEMACPRR@aol.com wrote: > Are you sure the gen sets and substation have been removed from Safe Harbor ? > The reason I say this is that Amtrak still owns the cat poles and high > tension lines along the A&S and the lines are still energized. All the groups > that want to turn the row into a rail-trail have run up against this problem > of the live transmission lines. It's my belief that the western end of the > electrification ( Parkesburg to Harris ) is fed from Safe Harbor. > Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 retirement questions Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:11:38 -0400 (EDT) KEMACPRR@aol.com scribit: > > Are you sure the gen sets and substation have been removed from Safe Harbor ? > The reason I say this is that Amtrak still owns the cat poles and high > tension lines along the A&S and the lines are still energized. All the groups > that want to turn the row into a rail-trail have run up against this problem > of the live transmission lines. It's my belief that the western end of the > electrification ( Parkesburg to Harris ) is fed from Safe Harbor. > Ken McCorry Judging from the configuration of catenary poles, the numbers of high-V wires, etc., it appears that the Harrisburg main was fed from 2 ends, via Harrisburg (via the CVRR bridge) and via Parkesburg. West of Lancaster the 4 high-tension lines decrease to only 2, all the way to Middletown, IIRC. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:07:26 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] P5a details Hi All, More on P-5 details, Kieth asked: >One area though seems to excape me. On the side of >both the box cabs and the modified were what looked >like air vents. On some of the box cabs these areas >had horizontal lovers. On others and the modifieds these >areas look like vertical screens. None of my photos give >clear detail of the screens. Can anyone describe the >construction of these screens. I spent some time looking last night and here is what I found. The P-5 and P-5a boxcabs were built with horizontal "shutters" on the traction motor blower vents. These were hinged at the top and were blown open as the blowers revved up. This gives a "Jalousie window" effect. The modifieds were built with "screens" which had vertical elements which appear to be fixed stiffeners or ribs. Now here's the tricky part...it appears that over the years, the boxcabs had their shutters replaced with screens, but rather than simply modify an entire loco, they were replaced a little more haphazardly than that. Many photos appear to show locos in the 50's and 60's with both shutters and screens (being careful not to mistake closed shutters for screens). The most common arrangement seems to show shutters on one or two vents nearest the end of the carbody, with screens on the center vents. By the end of service, most boxcabs appear to have only screens, and this appears to be the arrangement on #4700 as "preserved". Hmmmm, maybe Eddy at Rail Classics should try to figure out how to provide this feature (interchangable vent grills) on the HO P-5 models that they say are in the works !!! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 14:20:30 -0400 From: Elliot Fishbein and/or Eileen Kolbasuk Subject: [PRR] paint suggestions needed Hello, Can anyone out there tell me what color "Front End Paint" is? This is my first shot at painting a steamer (a LIRR H10), and have not found many useful color photos. Any ideas? Thanks in advance. Elliot Fishbein ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] P5 details Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 15:39:25 -0400 Hello again P-5 afficianados: I found my P-5/GG-1 operator's manual and it shows photos of the motors, quill drive, preventive coils, controller with cover removed, the whole 9 yards, but no interior view showing the relationship of the controller to the light switches and the brake stand. As I remember it, the cab was very plain with the pantograph up and down switches mounted on the window post, the cab signal box on the left side of the windshield, the controller and reverser just under the window and the brake valve to the left of the controller. Headlight dimmer was just under the pantograph buttons. That was about it. I did scan five images showing a comparison of the roof on the P-5 box cab: http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/prr/jpg/prr085.jpg the roof on the P-5a modified http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/prr/jpg/prr086.jpg the roof of a GG-1: http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/prr/jpg/prr087.jpg a digram showing the placement of all of the inerds on all three at: http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/prr/jpg/prr089.jpg and last but not least a key to reading the above diagram (which I guess you really should print out): http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/prr/jpg/prr088.jpg By the way, the two large tanks on the number two end of the P-5s were for water and fuel oil for the boiler. I don't know which was which because the boilers had long since been removed by the time I came on the P-5 scene. ..Bill Volkmer Long since removed from the Pennsy and the P-5a's. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 15:38:25 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: [PRR] Correction: Re: Bernice Br Apologies to the group. Several errors were included in my posting dated 8/3 regarding the Bernice branch which, being ever cognizent of the reach and influence of this forum, I really should correct. First, the SC&S was originally chartered in 1881, but was not built until 1887. The Pennsylvania Company provided the wherewithal after acquiring the dormant company in 1886. (Church, 2:549) Second, as I am often wont to do, I confused Maynard (where the GTW crosses the Pan Handle) with Airline (the former Monon crossing). Thus, my post should have indicated that the Cardinal previously used the SC&S as far east as Airline. I am properly humbled. And my lesson should be: never fire off a response from the top of one's head: check your facts first. Regards, Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 15:41:03 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] paint suggestions needed From: "Jerry Britton" > Can anyone out there tell me what color "Front End Paint" is? This is my > first shot at painting a steamer (a LIRR H10), and have not found many > useful color photos. Any ideas? Thanks in advance. Are you referring to the Smoke Box and Ash Pan areas of the loco? Though the latter gets "grimy" rapidly, they are a silvery grey color. Check the "PRR-Talk" archives... -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! we discussed this about a year ago. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 16:33:57 -0500 From: Larry Reynolds Subject: Re: [PRR] paint suggestions needed Hi Elliot: I've painted a lot of brass imports for my model railroad, but I'm not real sure what is prototypically correct. My guess is that there may have been variations, depending on era, etc. Pennsylvania Glory II shows the last days of some Long Island steam having a silver appearance on the smokebox. Many of the brass importers use a bright silver, (too bright for my taste). I'm not sure if the Pennsy or LIRR came close to this, but I have seen films of mikes and decs that look like they could have been bright at one time also. I can tell you what I believe looks good though. Try Scalecoat grime and finish the model with a mixture of 50% Scalecoat gloss and 50% Scalecoat flat. I think you'll like it. It also serves well on the running gear of electrics. Regards, Larry Elliot Fishbein and/or Eileen Kolbasuk wrote: > Hello, > Can anyone out there tell me what color "Front End Paint" is? This is my > first shot at painting a steamer (a LIRR H10), and have not found many > useful color photos. Any ideas? Thanks in advance. > > Elliot Fishbein > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] L1 Passenger Snappers (was :Book:Pennsy Streamliners) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 13:54:30 -0500 Amending my own message: >L1's as helpers on passenger trains on Horseshoe Curve have appeared in at >least a couple of videos. The Keystone of September 1980 has a good article >on the L1. There are two photos of L1's with passenger bar style pilots, >139 on the cover and 6306. The caption indicates that "During the 1940's >some L1s got passenger pilots for use on mail and express and troop trains." >Both photos show the engines equipped with 90F75 tenders. > There is also a photo of L1 3586 as the helper ahead of an EP-20 "west of the Horseshoe Curve on Sept. 2, 1951." Also of note is the EP-20 (E7): it still retains the side window configuration as built (the way P2K modeled it). Most photos from the 50's show the single window with vents modification. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] NEC and 25 vs 60 Hz From: Fred G Rea Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 16:53:38 EDT Peter etal: While I did design and transformers and power supplies for only a short time in the 1960's, I did not forget the relationship between frequency and the size of the cores. No, my concern was that any new 60 Hz equipment could not be used until all the overhead was at 60 Hz. My best lesson on all this is now on my layout. A 120v 400Hz variac that works fine as a throttle when I feed it with 12v AC at 60 Hz but would probably blow a fuse at 120v 60 Hz. The 400 Hz came, as you might guess, from an aircraft application. 400 Hz in aircraft because you can build equipment with much less iron in the cores. An important issue when synchros etc were popular. In the 60's a variac was the Cadillac of throttles. Getting a surplus one for free was fantastic, even if it was for 400 hz.. Going the other way, puzzles me, I am not sure what 60 HZ would do to transformers and rotating machinery. It sure would speed up synchronous motors however. Any idea what it would due to an entire GG1? At any rate, evolution from 25 Hz to 60 hz would be interesting. Apparently they did it. One guess is they had transitionslocos designed for either. Efficient use of materials would be complicated by dual frequency requirement. ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 15:54:41 -0400 From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pile drivers on the PRR RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > Gentlemen, > > Ray at Orange Blossom Hobbies in Miami needs to paint an OMI pile driver for > PRR. His questions were three: > 1. How late did these steam-powered pile drivers stay in service, and where > were they used? > 2. Where can he locate pics of them, either in service or in transit. > 3. What kind of tender would have been assigned to this pile driver, and > would it have been black or MoW yellow? > > My indexing comes up a little short on this question, so I though I'd ask the > experts--- anybody know where we can find the answers? > > Rick Tipton > Rowing frantically toward the end of Lot Three's hardware auction, including > 4 PRR oval builders' plates. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Rick, There are two photos of pile drivers in Gladulich's "By Rails to the Seashore" about the Pennsylvania- Reading Seashore line. There is a back lit b/w shot of an older (early 1900's) pile driver, 4-wheel caboose and an 0-4-0, and a second of a later larger unit in storage. The newer unit looked gray in the photo I can not remember if it was a b/w or color. The book is at home. Is there a picture of that OMI pile driver someplace? Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 17:21:05 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions Greetings to Bill and the List, I agree that the SDP40F was a big blunder from a tracking standpoint. I recall reading, however, that their two steam generators were on pallets that could be removed and replaced with HEP pallets (ie diesel engine and generator) as the time came. I realize that it is difficult to imagine government planning ahead; this aspect of the engine was good, but it was the tracking difficulties, real and perceived, that doomed them. I remember reading this in Railfan and Railroad; the exact date escapes me, but I believe it was a two-part series in the early 90s. In a sense, it was good that they ended up being unsuitable for Amtrak (and the nation's deteriorated track structure of the 1970s); if they'd been successful, kids like myself would never have seen E-units in revenue service for Amtrak and NJT. Doug Kisala Bill Volkmer wrote: > One of Amtrak's greatest blunders was their purchasing the first fleet of > SDP-40f s with steam generators (in 1972) knowing that they would be > obsolete in a few years and overlooking the fact that enough steam generator > cars existed around the country to temporarily heat the remaining steam > heated cars. > > The Keystone tubular train did have a Hercules power car for the tubular > equipment but the PRR early on had to install steam trainlines under them so > that the Silver Meteor et al could be tacked on behind them. > -----Original Message----- > From: Doug and Marianne > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 3:32 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions > > >These questions seem to have raised more questions than answers. Despite > >the photo in Pennsy Power III (P246), most other photos of GG1's hauling > >Amfleet cars include an HEP car. The photo may have been a deadhead move > of > >some sort. > > > >The HEP car seen in other photos (The Remarkable GG1, Page 71, among > others) > >was a short baggage car with a large expanse of louvers at one end. I > >assume that an HEP car consisted of a diesel engine and generator. > > > >I believe that the inside of a GG1 was much to crowded to add any new > >equipment. The Pennsy's Keystone tubular train was regularly hauled by > >GG1's and it had its own HEP power car. > > > >It has been stated that Amtrak ended GG1 operations in 1981. I believe > that > >NJ Transit operated them at least into 1983. > > > >I remember hearing something about corrosion problems with their body > >frames, but I think that the ultimate reason for their retirement was > >changing technology. The 25 or 60hz issue was supposedly one reason, the > >other was the end of steam heated passenger cars. All of Amtrak's Heritage > >cars were converted to HEP, as the Amfleet cars were built. I believe the > >reasons for the conversions were simplified car maintenance and weight > >reduction with the elimination of individual wheel-activated generators and > >storage batteries on each car. > > > >The steam heated cars were one of railroadings last connections with the > era > >of the steam locomotive. > > > >I believe Amtrak planned to retire the GG1's earlier, but the EP60's had > >tracking problems at high speed. Not until the development of the AEM7 was > >there an electric locomotive that could do what a GG1 did. It took over 40 > >years to produce something better. > > > > > >Doug Nelson > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 16:59:36 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] N5 #477297 Question: Is the Bowser kit really a N5? The platform ends and collision bars look to me like the WW 2 era upgrades (and N5A/B). Has anyone converted the Bowser kit to an as-built N5? Vagel Keller Pittsburgh ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Portage RR From: Fred G Rea Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 17:44:42 EDT While a bit off topic, let me recommend the relatively new display at the site of the old Portage RR. Those driving to the convention from the West will pass right by it. It is just off US 22 at the summit. Plenty of signs. I have been seeing sketches of canal boat on railroad trucks since grade school. This Museum gave me a much better perspective. They have a Museum building with a full scale loco, maps and a slide show. Nearby are a stretch of limestone and strap iron track. The short restored track is on the original right-of-way and you get a clear idea of how spectacular that operation must have been. The also have built a restoration of the building and machinery that pulled the cars up the inclined planes. A great stop for kids too! Fred Rea ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 17:39:48 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] 130P75 Hello Gene and the list, When I was at the RR Museum of Pennsylvania in 1994, I noticed a similar box on the 250F75 attached to M1b 6755. I asked the museum staff, and they said the box was for trainphone equipment, related, if I remember correctly, to the transmitter. I'll go out on a limb and guess that the box wasn't worth removing as the K4s fleet lost their trainphone antennas in the second half of the 50s. As another example of effort not expended on tenders, when class 130P75 tenders were taken from retired K4s engines and tacked on to I1sa engines, their class became known as second 130F82a, but the change to raise the firing deck from 75" to 82" was a simple false deck over the orginal, costing some water capacity. But with steam on the way out, it wasn't worth the extra effort (at least not to Pennsy's bean counters). I've never seen a shot of a K4s with trainphone on the New York and Long Branch Railroad (though, inevitably, someone will prove me wrong, and I'll have another K4s to model, which is not really such a bad thing). Doug endeimling@mindspring.com wrote: > I noticed a hatch on the side of K-4 #612's tender. What is the purpose of > this door/hatch? > Do all 130P75 have this feature? > Gene Deimling > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:12:52 -0400 From: thompson@ridgeback.East.Sun.COM (Keith B. Thompson - Sun) Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 08/03/99 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: [PRR] P5a details > From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." > Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 14:20:06 -0500 > > Keith, > > >I'm been gathering info on P5as so that i can > >scratch build a P5a box cab and a modified. > > Way to go! (good luck on the modified ...getting the contours right can > be a bugger!). BTW, asre you going to scratchbuild the driver centers? > I'm having a tough time finding appropriate drivers in HO. I've done some model ship building and i'll be using some techniques used to shape (far more complicated) ship hulls. I'll let you know how it comes out! :) As for the drivers, i've imported some S scale European Steam engine drivers from a guy in england which should work. I used 62" drivers on the B1 and they look great. As for the quill drive on the P5 i expect to cast some detail parts to add to the drivers. I'm waiting for the 72" drivers now, if that doesn't work i'll make the drivers from scratch. Will see. (Since the side frames hide so much of the driver i only need to be close... as the rivet counters start foaming at the mouth :o ) > >I'd like to know what the inside controls looked > >like for both the box cabs and the modifieds. Interior > >color information would be useful as well. > > I believe that the interior color was a light, "apple green" as on steam > locos. Remember that the bodies of these locos are DGLE and the frames, > pilots and running gear are black. I would have expected grey with red floor like the B1 but green could be good. I'll just need 1 color photo with the door open! > >I've been going by photos and scale drawings and > >have most of the outside details understood. One > >area though seems to excape me. On the side of > >both the box cabs and the modified were what looked > >like air vents. > > Traction motor blower vents...I look tonight for the differences you mention Yea, if i was just doing the box cab i'd be ok with the lovers. But the modifieds seem to all have this screen structure. > > >I've not seen a real one close up. I assume there > >are some around somewhere. > > One was saved. One of the only two P5 locos (the prototypes for the P5a) > #4700 is in residence at the St. Louis transportation museum. Humm, a bit far for me. And when i got there i bet it would only have lovers! :( ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Convention Agenda Update Date: Thu, 5 Aug 99 06:28:43 -0400 From: Jerry We just learned that Al Buchan is cancelling his talk on the MoW in the "PRR-Track" at the museum. Our program will be updated accordly. http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com Al cites the fact that he was glad to do it as an alternative to the Lewistown trip. But now that the trip has been cancelled, the PRRT&HS was left scrambling for a program. Walt Keely and I discussed using our agenda as the official program, but it required moving our program to the hotel. The organizers of the "PRR-Talk" track, while not against the concept, do not feel it appropriate to do so after the museum had very willingly bent over backwards to provide us with space, a/v equipment, and the like. They have been an ally before and we do not wish to tarnish that relationship. So, Walt Keely did arrange for one session at the hotel Friday afternoon. He only has space until 3 p.m., as the room is a restaurant. The PRRT&HS sessions features a general overview by the Cincinatti Modelers Group, from 1-2, I beleive (a new schedule is being mailed from the PRRT&HS to registrants). Al Buchan now feels that he is involved in a "competitive" situation. Perhaps so, but it was certainly unintentional. I suppose it is his right to do so, but to do so for a much publicized event is, in my opinion, very unprofessional. In Al's own words: "I normally do not welsh on my commitments. However, I believe this is an extra ordinary circumstance." We still have two very strong events at the museum. We will either tighten up the schedule, or add another. Also, we need some volunteers: to hand out flyers about the program in the registration area (Friday morning until 11:30 or so), to assist at the museum during sessions (answering questions/assisting attendees while Brad and I emcee), and perhaps at other times. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jwgotaskie@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 07:38:10 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pile drivers on the PRR The photos of steam derricks with tenders that I've seen, have the tender painted yellow or grey depending on the era. I would assume that the same would hold true for pile drivers. Of course as many of us have learned, nothing is absolute when talking about the PRR. Joe ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Re: Amtrak SDP-40s Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 09:17:23 -0400 A bunch of those units were sold to the Santa Fe after Amtrak was done with them and they served out their years without steam generators. I believe Amtrak did convert a few of them to HEP units towards the end. or possibly the last few were delivered with them. I don't exactly remember. -----Original Message----- From: doug.kisala To: Bill Volkmer ; prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions >Greetings to Bill and the List, > >I agree that the SDP40F was a big blunder from a tracking standpoint. I recall >reading, however, that their two steam generators were on pallets that could be >removed and replaced with HEP pallets (ie diesel engine and generator) as the >time came. I realize that it is difficult to imagine government planning ahead; >this aspect of the engine was good, but it was the tracking difficulties, real >and perceived, that doomed them. I remember reading this in Railfan and >Railroad; the exact date escapes me, but I believe it was a two-part series in >the early 90s. In a sense, it was good that they ended up being unsuitable for >Amtrak (and the nation's deteriorated track structure of the 1970s); if they'd >been successful, kids like myself would never have seen E-units in revenue >service for Amtrak and NJT. > >Doug Kisala > >Bill Volkmer wrote: > >> One of Amtrak's greatest blunders was their purchasing the first fleet of >> SDP-40f s with steam generators (in 1972) knowing that they would be >> obsolete in a few years and overlooking the fact that enough steam generator >> cars existed around the country to temporarily heat the remaining steam >> heated cars. >> >> The Keystone tubular train did have a Hercules power car for the tubular >> equipment but the PRR early on had to install steam trainlines under them so >> that the Silver Meteor et al could be tacked on behind them. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Doug and Marianne >> To: prr-talk@dsop.com >> Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 3:32 AM >> Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 retirement questions >> >> >These questions seem to have raised more questions than answers. Despite >> >the photo in Pennsy Power III (P246), most other photos of GG1's hauling >> >Amfleet cars include an HEP car. The photo may have been a deadhead move >> of >> >some sort. >> > >> >The HEP car seen in other photos (The Remarkable GG1, Page 71, among >> others) >> >was a short baggage car with a large expanse of louvers at one end. I >> >assume that an HEP car consisted of a diesel engine and generator. >> > >> >I believe that the inside of a GG1 was much to crowded to add any new >> >equipment. The Pennsy's Keystone tubular train was regularly hauled by >> >GG1's and it had its own HEP power car. >> > >> >It has been stated that Amtrak ended GG1 operations in 1981. I believe >> that >> >NJ Transit operated them at least into 1983. >> > >> >I remember hearing something about corrosion problems with their body >> >frames, but I think that the ultimate reason for their retirement was >> >changing technology. The 25 or 60hz issue was supposedly one reason, the >> >other was the end of steam heated passenger cars. All of Amtrak's Heritage >> >cars were converted to HEP, as the Amfleet cars were built. I believe the >> >reasons for the conversions were simplified car maintenance and weight >> >reduction with the elimination of individual wheel-activated generators and >> >storage batteries on each car. >> > >> >The steam heated cars were one of railroadings last connections with the >> era >> >of the steam locomotive. >> > >> >I believe Amtrak planned to retire the GG1's earlier, but the EP60's had >> >tracking problems at high speed. Not until the development of the AEM7 was >> >there an electric locomotive that could do what a GG1 did. It took over 40 >> >years to produce something better. >> > >> > >> >Doug Nelson >> > >> > >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >> > >> > >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] NEC and 25 vs 60 Hz Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 08:56:24 -0400 Perhaps you are all confused as to why the change from 25HZ to 60 Hz in the first place. The reason is that the Pennsy built their own power plants to supply their own power to themselves in the early 1900s and designed the system to be to THEIR best advantage. Since they were "married" into 25 HZ, the extensions in the 30s had to be 25HZ (for better or for worse). Then at some point in time, (probably post World War II) the PRR sold the whole works to Pennelec and I guess Con Ed, who had to continue to sell power to the railroad from the Conewingo plant etc. By converting to 60HZ, the electric companies could furnish power to the railroad from whatever source they choose. As I said in a previous post, it was the Lackawanna re-electrificiation in the late 70s that gave the final push to make the plunge and the GG-1s were past due for replacement anyhoo. Oh by the way. The real achilies heel, if you will, on the GG-1s were their main frames that were severely prone to cracking around the stress-relief holes (that made them look like Swiss Cheese). The freight Gs (i.e. the older ones) were worse in this aspect than the newer ones (as I remember it). Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Fred G Rea To: tvpete@usa.net ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] NEC and 25 vs 60 Hz >Peter etal: > >While I did design and transformers and power supplies for only a short >time in the 1960's, I did not forget the relationship between frequency >and the size of the cores. > >No, my concern was that any new 60 Hz equipment could not be used until >all the overhead was at 60 Hz. My best lesson on all this is now on my >layout. A 120v 400Hz variac that works fine as a throttle when I feed >it with 12v AC at 60 Hz but would probably blow a fuse at 120v 60 Hz. >The 400 Hz came, as you might guess, from an aircraft application. 400 >Hz in aircraft because you can build equipment with much less iron in the >cores. An important issue when synchros etc were popular. In the 60's a >variac was the Cadillac of throttles. Getting a surplus one for free was >fantastic, even if it was for 400 hz.. > >Going the other way, puzzles me, I am not sure what 60 HZ would do to >transformers and rotating machinery. It sure would speed up synchronous >motors however. Any idea what it would due to an entire GG1? > >At any rate, evolution from 25 Hz to 60 hz would be interesting. >Apparently they did it. One guess is they had transitionslocos designed >for either. Efficient use of materials would be complicated by dual >frequency requirement. > >___________________________________________________________________ >Get the Internet just the way you want it. >Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 07:58:31 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] more! P5a details Steve Asked: >Thank you for the information, Bruce...I would likd to add another >question: What is the function of the flat-sided but tapered tanks >under the carbodies, along the sides, at one or more ends (not the round >air reservoirs, if that is what THEY are)? My guess is boiler fuel >tanks, but I have always wondered. And Bill V. added (paraphrased as I've lost his post) that one was fuel and one water. I did some additional looking last night and found, as Bill V. noted, that the boiler was on the "B" end (back? boiler?) of the P-5a boxcab, and a little "F" was stenciled on the other end so even though these were double ended, there is a front and back . Looking at the locomotive's left side, the boiler would be at the back and the filler on the rear left side is labeled "Fuel Oil" with the lettering split by the filler recess. This would indicate that the left tank is for Fuel oil and the right for water, and should be labeled so. Interestingly, the sand fillers also appear to be labeled in the builders photos in Pennsy Power and in shots from the 30's with "sand ????" I cannot make out the second word to tell if it is "fill" or "only" or something else. Just to make life interesting, the O-1 locos were labeled with the "F" at the boiler end, and in the builders photo of the the O-1c, the tank is labeled "Fuel Tank". It is in the same location as the P-5a, but because of the switch in labeling the "front" of the loco, it is on the "right" not left side . Confused yet? Another interesting detail, that I must chase down is the presence of P-5a like tanks on my Alco models O-1c, but these tanks are cylindrical, like the air tanks at the opposite end, in the builders photo. I wonder if they were modified at a later date? BTW, the air tank is also stenciled "Air Tank"! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 10:01:00 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Agenda Update From: "Jerry Britton" Earlier I reported: > Al Buchan now feels that he is involved in a "competitive" situation. > Perhaps so, but it was certainly unintentional. I suppose it is his right > to do so, but to do so for a much publicized event is, in my opinion, > very unprofessional. In Al's own words: "I normally do not welsh on my > commitments. However, I believe this is an extra ordinary circumstance." It now seems that Al not only unprofessionally cancelled his seminar on our track, but he then approached Walt Keely and is now sheduled to present at the hotel on Friday evening. First, I reiterate my stance that I DO want to support the national society's efforts. I'm glad they now have a Friday evening program which was identified previously by listers as a missed opportunity. Second, I think this is a "first rate weasel" move on Mr. Buchan's part. (Perhaps we should start an award?) Now that we all understand where the loyalties lie... Since a small few on the list think they are making a name for themselves by forwarding posts as this to national officers...I state the above with full knowlege that it will appear in the public list archives, that Mr. Buchan is on this list, and that Walt Keely will see it. I have no problem with that. (Kind of takes away your celebrity, doesn't it?) -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Convention Agenda Update Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 10:03:42 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 6:29 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Convention Agenda Update Jerry and list, Thanks for posting an accurate description of my withdrawal from the PRR-Talk program. Although my message of withdrawal to Brad Bower was more lengthy and better covered my anguish. This was not an easy decision for me, I discussed it yesterday with several associates and even talked about it with my wife last evening before sending Brad the message. I sincerely appreciate the confidence you all expressed in me by asking me to do the show and I sincerely regret having to do what I did. I applaud the scrambling effort of Brad Bower who put together a last minute alternate program to supplement the official PRRT&HS program scheduled to take place during the Lewistown trip. And I also understand the position of the group in not wanting to let the museum down after they had gone out of their way. That's what makes this a very unusual and difficult situation. Jerry I did what I did after a lot of soul searching, if you want to consider what I did unprofessional that's your choice. However, some redeeming news has come out of all this mess, in that Walt Keely (PRRT&HS Convention Chair) has advised me that the PRRT&HS will schedule the MW Equipment show for Friday evening at 7:30 p.m. So those of you who want to see it will have the opportunity and those of you who may be upset with my decision can boycott it. Al John 8:7 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AndersonCL@nswccd.navy.mil Subject: RE: [PRR] NEC and 25 vs 60 Hz Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 10:22:49 -0400 I'm new to this group so let me get in may "two cents" worth... I have to "quibble" with the assertion that PRR was "for better or worse" locked into 25 HZ AC power... when - and this is infered, that 60HZ - the Amercian commercial standard, was available. There were specific technical details that precluded use of 60HZ until relatively recent times... the late 1950's and early 1960's. It all goes back to the very beginning of commerical electricity over 100 years ago and the arguments involing what was best AC or DC. By the trun of the Century Westinghouse became the champion of AC power and General Electric (Tom Edison's Company)DC. In short there were significant advantages and disadvantages in both systems at the time... DC was great for the varying load demands of locomotives and AC wasn't! AC was easy distributed from the source to the load and DC wasn't! In the end a "compromise" utilizing the best qualities of both was needed... solving that vexing problem took the better part of 75 years. As a result of legislation requiring a "Smoke Free" New York the Pennsy's arch enemy NYC determine the string DC 3rd rail and NH AC overhead catenary. The NH was rthe real pioneer in this instance since they required operation into the new GCT using both sources. The key element was development of the COMMUTATED MOTOR in conjunction AC at low frequency... which "fooled" that motors into thinking it was Direct Current. AC motors exhibit low torque - turning power, and are most efficient at a synchronis speed. With some technical "juggling" AC motors incotporated "smoothing reactors" and other devices which made the current impressed for turning the wheels appear DC "like". As far as infrastructure AC require frequency conversion... many traction companies had large motor generator sets that took commercial AC and converted it to DC for use by trolley cars. The Pennsy established long term contracts with Philadelphia Electric Company (now PECO Energy) - not Pennsylvania Electric, which provided the frequency converters and requisite 25 HZ power to PRR's substations. By the time Coniwingo Dam came on line... in the 1920's, PRR could "tap" that source for expansion of its electrified lines north and south of Philadelphia. The is an interesting and complex story related to the use of PECO's power from Coniwingo that involes ROW for getting "the juice" from Maryland into Philadelphia. The RDG allowed PECO... in a first time ever application, to erect power towers from Plymouth Township PA along its Main Line and Norristown Branches into the City near Wayne Junction where the lines were routed underground. This helped RDG develop similar plans to string AC wire along its lines... due to the depression only the electrification of its suburban lines was ever completed. PECO, very early installed a frequency conversion station at its Schuykill Power Plant which still supplies the NEC. The New Haven had its own generating plant at Cos Cob, CT... so CONED never was in the picture. Back in the late 1920's PRR used its muscle by indicating it would build its own power station near Morrisvile. Of course this never happened since a very lucrative and beneficial "rate" was given to PRR. With the practical introduction of the Ignitron rectifier the advantages of DC motors in conjunction with AC power distribution were realized. Subsequent improvements... silicon and other solid sate material made "on board" rectification by locomotives - Motors, if you desire, more reliable and effecient. All this precluded the further use of 25 HZ distribution. But conversion is an extremely expensive proposition... The conversion of the former DL&W Morris-Essex DC lines had nothing to do with dropping the pans on the "G" Motors. The cracked frames, PCB filled transformers and just plain old age with the attendent increased maintenance costs "did them in". So here we are at 1999... regards, Chas -----Original Message----- From: Bill Volkmer [mailto:herzog1@gate.net] Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 8:56 AM To: talk prr; Fred G Rea Subject: Re: [PRR] NEC and 25 vs 60 Hz Perhaps you are all confused as to why the change from 25HZ to 60 Hz in the first place. The reason is that the Pennsy built their own power plants to supply their own power to themselves in the early 1900s and designed the system to be to THEIR best advantage. Since they were "married" into 25 HZ, the extensions in the 30s had to be 25HZ (for better or for worse). Then at some point in time, (probably post World War II) the PRR sold the whole works to Pennelec and I guess Con Ed, who had to continue to sell power to the railroad from the Conewingo plant etc. By converting to 60HZ, the electric companies could furnish power to the railroad from whatever source they choose. As I said in a previous post, it was the Lackawanna re-electrificiation in the late 70s that gave the final push to make the plunge and the GG-1s were past due for replacement anyhoo. Oh by the way. The real achilies heel, if you will, on the GG-1s were their main frames that were severely prone to cracking around the stress-relief holes (that made them look like Swiss Cheese). The freight Gs (i.e. the older ones) were worse in this aspect than the newer ones (as I remember it). Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Fred G Rea To: tvpete@usa.net ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] NEC and 25 vs 60 Hz >Peter etal: > >While I did design and transformers and power supplies for only a short >time in the 1960's, I did not forget the relationship between frequency >and the size of the cores. > >No, my concern was that any new 60 Hz equipment could not be used until >all the overhead was at 60 Hz. My best lesson on all this is now on my >layout. A 120v 400Hz variac that works fine as a throttle when I feed >it with 12v AC at 60 Hz but would probably blow a fuse at 120v 60 Hz. >The 400 Hz came, as you might guess, from an aircraft application. 400 >Hz in aircraft because you can build equipment with much less iron in the >cores. An important issue when synchros etc were popular. In the 60's a >variac was the Cadillac of throttles. Getting a surplus one for free was >fantastic, even if it was for 400 hz.. > >Going the other way, puzzles me, I am not sure what 60 HZ would do to >transformers and rotating machinery. It sure would speed up synchronous >motors however. Any idea what it would due to an entire GG1? > >At any rate, evolution from 25 Hz to 60 hz would be interesting. >Apparently they did it. One guess is they had transitionslocos designed >for either. Efficient use of materials would be complicated by dual >frequency requirement. > >___________________________________________________________________ >Get the Internet just the way you want it. >Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 11:53:21 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Agenda Update From: "Jerry Britton" > However, some redeeming news has come out of all this mess, in that Walt > Keely (PRRT&HS Convention Chair) has advised me that the PRRT&HS will > schedule the MW Equipment show for Friday evening at 7:30 p.m. So those of > you who want to see it will have the opportunity and those of you who may be > upset with my decision can boycott it. As I alluded to in my recent post to the list, I think the fact that there is now a scheduled seminar for Friday evening is good, despite how it happened. I am not by any means recommending nor endorsing a boycott of any kind, for the record. However, I will likely miss the session as I tend to my table in the vendors room. A fully revised schedule from Walt was to be mailed to registrants this past Monday. I will update the web site (http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com) as soon as I receive it. Al: Your session begins at 7:30 you say. Is it still slated for 1-1/4 hours? -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 12:09:59 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Overview Bridge is open Greetings to Jerry and the list A quick news item. Yesterday morning, East Pennsboro Township officials cut the ribbon on a $2.3 million concrete-and-steel replacement for the 1904-05 "iron bridge" at the north end of Enola Yard. It incorporates three railfan-friendly features: -- parking lot for about 10 cars at the west end. -- double shoulders, to accommodate train-watchers on both sides. -- windows in the chain-link fence to allow photography/videography. There are 10 on each side, each measuring about 2 feet high by nine feet long. The opening of the bridge also reopens access to Rockville Bridge from the south. The "iron bridge" was closed in 1992 as unsafe. Dan Cupper dan@cwix.com Psalm 27:8 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 12:38:49 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Apology to the List From: "Jerry Britton" Following receipt of very courteous e-mail from a subscriber -- whose work I happen to admire a great deal -- I am submitting an apology to the list regarding the "name calling" I did this morning with regard to Mr. Buchan. My comment was made hastily, in the heat of the moment, and I went too far. The matter is made worse, as was politely pointed out, that as listmaster I must set the example for others to follow. So, my aplogies to both the list and Mr. Buchan about that portion of the matter at hand. Thank you. -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 12:27:06 EDT Subject: [PRR] re: CONVENTION AGENDA UPDATE Jerri & folks, I guess I don't understand a lot of what's going on between the prr-talk folks and the National leadership, other than what's been publicly exchanged this morning. Seems due to recent changes in schelduling we have a conflict of sorts resulting in an unhappy exchange of thoughts.This is regrettable, to be sure, but I really hope it can be ironed out. I realize that in a hobby in which we have so much emotional investment and into which we pour an awfully lot of effort, it's easy to step on toes and to hurt feelings. But can there please be some forgiving here? Looks to me like Al Buchan got caught in some last-minute time juggling and I'm sure nothing was done in a malicious manner. How about picking up the pieces and going on from here? I don't get close enough to Pennsy territory often enough to know the immediate politics at the National level, but I'm getting some bad vibes here, as they say in the old country. Jerri, if there's a conflict with Walt Keely at the national level, and the proposed cyber chapter representative, folks are liable to take sides and/or get an impression of competition, whether it actually exists or not. Please believe me, we don't want to open some kind of gulf amounst the Pennsy fraternity. And with the old guard having there own way of looking at things, it's a safe bet that boat-rocking is not welcomed. I can see where you feel like you've been stiffed and have a gripe, but I'd still like to suggest taking things easy. I saw one hell of a conflict develope over at another HS covering a midwestern railroad and now there's two distinctly different organizations that share a relationship similar to that of north and South Korea. It doesn't appear things are that fearsome in Pennsyland and it appears the cyber chapter still has a positive image coming into the convention, at least from my limited perspective, so hopefully things will end up heading in the right direction. All I can say is to take it easy. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 11:13:45 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] N5 #477297 >Question: Is the Bowser kit really a N5? The platform ends and collision >bars look to me like the WW 2 era upgrades (and N5A/B). Vagel, Very Perceptive! I was leafing through one of the "Color Guides" trying to answer the pile driver question when I re-read the N5 captions. Under one, it notes that the N5 cabin in the photo is equipped with the N5b/c style collision posts, and that the N5 was upgraded with these around/after WWII. The N5b and N5c were built with them. Thus, the Bowser model is most accurate as a post-WWII N5. Modeling a pre-WWII N5 requires replacement of the castings on the end to remove the heavy collision posts. I know that there are several after-market detail kits for these cabins including grabs, windows etc...does one have the original ends? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 13:41:46 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Overview Bridge is open From: "Jerry Britton" Dan Cupper wrote: > Yesterday morning, East Pennsboro Township officials cut the ribbon on a > $2.3 million concrete-and-steel replacement for the 1904-05 "iron > bridge" at the north end of Enola Yard. It incorporates three > railfan-friendly features: > > -- parking lot for about 10 cars at the west end. > > -- double shoulders, to accommodate train-watchers on both sides. > > -- windows in the chain-link fence to allow photography/videography. > There are 10 on each side, each measuring about 2 feet high by nine feet > long. > > The opening of the bridge also reopens access to Rockville Bridge from > the south. The "iron bridge" was closed in 1992 as unsafe. And to his credit, Dan Cupper was involved in the design...and never taking credit for his thoughful work! -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 14:22:39 EDT Subject: [PRR] convention agenda Most of the time I just read the letters and gain more knowledge about this great hobby, but I'm sticking my 2 cents worth in on this one. It seems to me that if anyone from PRR - talk can help make the convention better for EVERYONE then they should do it. I appreciate the fact that Jerry and some others were trying to fill the gaps for the time periods they felt needed to be filled but there will be thousands of people there. Why not give your blessing to spreading some of the wealth of knowledge that the members of PRR - talk have to them? It is only going to make the convention better as some have felt it was lacking in areas and possibly draw more interest into the hobby and maybe even the cyber chapter. Many people don't have the time or are not within traveling distance to join a chapter and become ACTIVE members but as more and more households are gaining access to the Internet this may give them the nudge to join AND contribute some of their knowledge. We are all adults - shake hands. Set an example for all those interested. (We all knew the convention was coming up. Any one of us could have contacted those in charge at anytime during the planning stages and offered our help. Did we?) Dayna Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: [PRR] New Web Pages Online Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 13:02:24 -0400 We invite you to examine our new website at: You will find the latest RAILFAN NEWS of Conway Yard and the Beaver Valley, which will be UPDATED at least every few days. Your comments and suggestions are most welcome! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 13:05:25 -0400 Subject: [PRR] BANKS Tower From: "Jerry Britton" Back to your regularly scheduled programming... Anyone know when BANKS Tower, Marysville PA, was razed? I worked in that area in 1986 and I walked the tracks from Rockville to BANKS, mapping as I went, for in those days I was ignorant to the existence of "Track Charts"! Anyway, I'd like to say BANKS was still there then, but I'm not certain. I recall the two signal bridges, as I had drawn their signal heads on my charts for reference. SEMI-RELATED: The new bridge at Overlook is now open. It was on the news the other night, talking about its design features geared towards railfans. 8-) -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 12:59:15 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] re: CONVENTION AGENDA UPDATE From: "Jerry Britton" > I guess I don't understand a lot of what's going on between the prr-talk > folks and the National leadership, other than what's been publicly exchanged > this morning. Seems due to recent changes in schelduling we have a conflict > of sorts resulting in an unhappy exchange of thoughts.This is regrettable, to > be sure, but I really hope it can be ironed out. I realize that in a hobby in > which we have so much emotional investment and into which we pour an awfully > lot of effort, it's easy to step on toes and to hurt feelings. But can there > please be some forgiving here? Looks to me like Al Buchan got caught in some > last-minute time juggling and I'm sure nothing was done in a malicious > manner. How about picking up the pieces and going on from here? The source of the problem was that National created an extremely unattractive event agenda for Friday. We stepped up to the plate and made an attractive program. National cancelled their program. That's when the trouble started. We already had a good lineup in an attractive venue. They, then, scheduled opposite us in another venue. We spoke about using our events as "theirs", which both Brad and I fully supported. However, they wanted to move it to the hotel to accommodate more people. That was okay also, to a point. The problem is, the museum really went out of their way to provide a venue, with equipment. With that commitment, they are expecting 50-60+ admissions (discounted). It would not be fair of us to pull the plug on them, now would it? National now plans a bus tour to the museum in the morning. Wouldn't it have been nice for them to work with us...creating an all-day venue at the museum? Guess that was too convenient...national shot it down. I asked about a Friday night event, but was told that space was not available to the society. Hmmm...now it's really greasy, as one of our speakers leaves to speak Friday night! It is indeed an unfortunate situation. If only we had known that Mr. Buchan's commitment was one of "if nothing else comes up" we might have done things differently. I am truly glad national now has a Friday night session. These sessions are expected...and expected to be in the same town as the hotel! > I don't get close enough to Pennsy territory often enough to know the > immediate politics at the National level, but I'm getting some bad vibes > here, as they say in the old country. Jerri, if there's a conflict with Walt > Keely at the national level, and the proposed cyber chapter representative, > folks are liable to take sides and/or get an impression of competition, > whether it actually exists or not. Please believe me, we don't want to open > some kind of gulf amounst the Pennsy fraternity. And with the old guard > having there own way of looking at things, it's a safe bet that boat-rocking > is not welcomed. I can see where you feel like you've been stiffed and have a > gripe, but I'd still like to suggest taking things easy. I saw one hell of a > conflict develope over at another HS covering a midwestern railroad and now > there's two distinctly different organizations that share a relationship > similar to that of north and South Korea. It doesn't appear things are that > fearsome in Pennsyland and it appears the cyber chapter still has a positive > image coming into the convention, at least from my limited perspective, so > hopefully things will end up heading in the right direction. As for the Cyber Chapter, I'm facilitating its happening. Hopefully all will go smooth. The charter members will elect officers. I certainly don't need to be among them. I'll gladly step aside for a more senior, duly qualified member who is willing to invest the time. If Walt is being honest with me, then we have met all requirements for establishing a chapter (10 national members). All that is left is to apply, and Walt has promised me the procedure via mail (the by-laws). I am acting totally openly and honestly with Walt about this proposed chapter. There is no "boat rocking" involved unless someone at national starts it. I think the Cyber Chapter is not only a good idea, but a necessity. As our society ages and passes on, what will be left? Who will keep things going? How? The Cyber Chapter has the means to reach out to potential members anywhere on earth, without restriction to travelable locations, geographic boundaries, the need for passports, etc. All for now... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 11:02:49 -0700 From: Silver Pines Farm Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Agenda Update Jerry, I have hesitated to use a public forum such as this to upbraid an individual, but this E'mail I am responding to in addition to others I have passed over in the past need to be addressed. I first off would like to make note of the fact I am not in the political stream of things. I am located in No. Idaho and in fact have only met one other member of the PRRH&TS! In my opinion, the society is the major player today in most things concerned with the PRR. Through the society and the members that have made it happen, more of and about the PRR has been preservered and diseminated then by any other entity I can think of. With this in mind, the logical plan of action for any serious student of the PRR would be to wholly support the society. This is not a question of loyalty as you have stated in your e'mail to Mr. Buchan, this is a matter of common sense. I personally can not find fault with Mr. Buchan's decision to change his presentation to the convention. The convention is the society's, no one elses. like it or not, any other organizations other than the society are second fiddle to the society and the convention. The society needs the support of talented people like your self and others in order to continue. However, the devisive "them and us" attitude that you appear to be displaying is likly only headed to cause a split or at minimum a lot of infighting with in the society. This can destroy a organizations momentum for years if it is not indeed fatal. A volunteer organization does not need this type of dissention. A volunteer organization of the caliber of the PRRH&TS does not deserve this type of dissention. Jerry, you have been critisizing the "old guard" ever since I joined this list. Lately you have been finding fault with the people organizing this years convention. I have yet to read anything of you spending volunteer time in anyway connected with the society, much less with this convention. I'm sure that the organizers would have liked the relief of more bodies to help put the convention on track. From what I can see, many if not most of the "old guard" are where they are due to an investment in "sweat equity" supporting the society and being able to invest the time (and in some cases money) to make the society survive. How can you honestly expect support for a board position when you have not supported the society? You say that the situation at the convention was not ment to be competitive. >From the e'mails I have read that you have sent, this is not true! You have repeatedly made comments as well on "wanting to make an impression". You have done this, but with your comments, it may not be a good one. Your name calling on this email and previous ones is uncalled for and very poor form. On other list I have been subscribed to, offenders have been unsubscribed for less. I do not wish to seem to minimize your efforts in your web page or PRR talk. For someone located in the sticks as I am, these and other web pages are a real spice of life. However, we all need to support the society, for is the magnet that draws PRR history, data, and SPF's together. For those who attend the convention, remember to find and personally thank the people who have made the effort to make it happen. They have been putting the convention together while the rest of us have been spending our spare time playing at our hobbies. Sincerely, Doug Edwards Jerry Britton wrote: > > Earlier I reported: > > > Al Buchan now feels that he is involved in a "competitive" situation. > > Perhaps so, but it was certainly unintentional. I suppose it is his right > > to do so, but to do so for a much publicized event is, in my opinion, > > very unprofessional. In Al's own words: "I normally do not welsh on my > > commitments. However, I believe this is an extra ordinary circumstance." > > It now seems that Al not only unprofessionally cancelled his seminar on our > track, but he then approached Walt Keely and is now sheduled to present at > the hotel on Friday evening. > > First, I reiterate my stance that I DO want to support the national > society's efforts. I'm glad they now have a Friday evening program which was > identified previously by listers as a missed opportunity. > > Second, I think this is a "first rate weasel" move on Mr. Buchan's part. > (Perhaps we should start an award?) > > Now that we all understand where the loyalties lie... > > Since a small few on the list think they are making a name for themselves by > forwarding posts as this to national officers...I state the above with full > knowlege that it will appear in the public list archives, that Mr. Buchan is > on this list, and that Walt Keely will see it. I have no problem with that. > (Kind of takes away your celebrity, doesn't it?) > -------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! > Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 5 Aug 99 15:09:54 EDT From: "PETER TYRRELL JR." Subject: Re: [PRR] NEC and 25 vs 60 Hz Fred: An AC motor doesn't have to be a synchronous motor. Any AC motor will increase it's speed as it's supply Frequency is increased. The ratio of the frequency change, in this case 25/60 will tell you change in the motors designed speed to it's new speed at the new frequency. Thus a 25 cycle motor designed to run at 1,437.5 RPM would run at 3,450 RPM on 60 cycles. Prior to twenty years ago AC motor speed control was a diffucult task, how ever solid state electronics have made speed control, via frequency change rather easy, which has prompted the current move to AC motored Diesels. If today's technology had been available in 1900, 25 cycle power would never have been used on any RR. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Apology to the List Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 16:17:34 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 12:39 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Apology to the List Jerry, Your apology is accepted. I have always been of the opinion that it takes a big man to publicly admit he made a mistake and you have done that. However, I must admit I am somewhat disappointed as I guess I will not now be getting the PRR-Talk's First Annual Weasel (First Class) Award. I did have a space in my trophy case for it. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Denton" Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Agenda Update Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 16:31:57 -0400 Gentlemen: Although I am not a member of the PRR Society, I do belong to one that follows my railroad and try to do things in that organization. I joined this list to learn something about the Delmarva Peninsular Operations and have found many items to be of interest. I would like to say that I agree with Mr. Edwards in his opinion of the way this your Society is headed is something similar to what happened on the Southeast Modelers List when several people of one group decided that several people of another opinion should not be with them, they severed the ties and moved to another location. If you don't overlook some of the other guys faults, you can't expect them to overlook yours. It has to be a give and take approach to make it work. I dare say that if you polled 50 of your members, you would possibly have 50 opinions. I'll get off my soap box now. Larry Denton -----Original Message----- From: Silver Pines Farm To: Jerry Britton Cc: PRR-Talk LIST Date: Thursday, August 05, 1999 4:17 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Agenda Update >Jerry, > >I have hesitated to use a public forum such as this to upbraid an >individual, >but this E'mail I am responding to in addition to others I have passed >over >in the past need to be addressed. > >I first off would like to make note of the fact I am not in the >political >stream of things. I am located in No. Idaho and in fact have only met >one >other member of the PRRH&TS! > >In my opinion, the society is the major player today in most things >concerned >with the PRR. Through the society and the members that have made it >happen, >more of and about the PRR has been preservered and diseminated then by >any >other entity I can think of. With this in mind, the logical plan of >action >for any serious student of the PRR would be to wholly support the >society. >This is not a question of loyalty as you have stated in your e'mail to >Mr. >Buchan, this is a matter of common sense. I personally can not find >fault with Mr. Buchan's decision to change his presentation to >the convention. The convention is the society's, no one elses. like >it or not, any other organizations other than the society are second >fiddle to the society and the convention. > >The society needs the support of talented people like your self and >others >in order to continue. However, the devisive "them and us" attitude that >you appear to be displaying is likly only headed to cause a split >or at minimum a lot of infighting with in the society. This can destroy >a organizations momentum for years if it is not indeed fatal. >A volunteer organization does not need this type of dissention. >A volunteer organization of the caliber of the PRRH&TS does not deserve >this type of dissention. > >Jerry, you have been critisizing the "old guard" ever since I joined >this list. >Lately you have been finding fault with the people organizing this years >convention. I have yet to read anything of you spending volunteer time >in anyway >connected with the society, much less with this convention. I'm sure >that >the organizers would have liked the relief of more bodies to help put >the >convention on track. From what I can see, many if not most of the "old >guard" >are where they are due to an investment in "sweat equity" supporting the >society and being able to invest the time (and in some cases money) to >make >the society survive. How can you honestly expect support for a board >position >when you have not supported the society? > >You say that the situation at the convention was not ment to be >competitive. >>From the e'mails I have read that you have sent, this is not true! You >have >repeatedly made comments as well on "wanting to make an impression". >You have >done this, but with your comments, it may not be a good one. > >Your name calling on this email and previous ones is uncalled for and >very >poor form. On other list I have been subscribed to, offenders have been >unsubscribed for less. > >I do not wish to seem to minimize your efforts in your web page or PRR >talk. >For someone located in the sticks as I am, these and other web pages are >a real spice of life. However, we all need to support the society, for >is >the magnet that draws PRR history, data, and SPF's together. > >For those who attend the convention, remember to find and personally >thank >the people who have made the effort to make it happen. They have been >putting >the convention together while the rest of us have been spending our >spare time >playing at our hobbies. > > >Sincerely, > >Doug Edwards > >Jerry Britton wrote: >> >> Earlier I reported: >> >> > Al Buchan now feels that he is involved in a "competitive" situation. >> > Perhaps so, but it was certainly unintentional. I suppose it is his right >> > to do so, but to do so for a much publicized event is, in my opinion, >> > very unprofessional. In Al's own words: "I normally do not welsh on my >> > commitments. However, I believe this is an extra ordinary circumstance." >> >> It now seems that Al not only unprofessionally cancelled his seminar on our >> track, but he then approached Walt Keely and is now sheduled to present at >> the hotel on Friday evening. >> >> First, I reiterate my stance that I DO want to support the national >> society's efforts. I'm glad they now have a Friday evening program which was >> identified previously by listers as a missed opportunity. >> >> Second, I think this is a "first rate weasel" move on Mr. Buchan's part. >> (Perhaps we should start an award?) >> >> Now that we all understand where the loyalties lie... >> >> Since a small few on the list think they are making a name for themselves by >> forwarding posts as this to national officers...I state the above with full >> knowlege that it will appear in the public list archives, that Mr. Buchan is >> on this list, and that Walt Keely will see it. I have no problem with that. >> (Kind of takes away your celebrity, doesn't it?) >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com >> "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" >> http://kc.pennsyrr.com >> "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products >> http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com >> Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! >> Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 21:43:54 -0400 (EDT) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] Inquiry: Whereabouts of Geo. Straits Circus Train Follow up to all on this question The Strates Train snuck into town about 2 weeks ago....nice to know that something like that can slip in even in this age of the internet. Has been in town 2 weeks already and wont be leaving til 8/23. I am amazed that it made it in to town and NOONE knew. I am on about 6 different lists and NOT one of them mentioned anything about the Strates Train coming this way. Oh Well....Will have to catch it on the way out!!! On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, alcoman wrote: > >Hello Terry > >Just as a future reference,,,,,it is the James E. Strates train and the >Erie County Fair and Expo (which they come to town for) is being held from >August 11-22. According to the Strates Shows webpage at > >http://www.strates.com/route.htm > >July 23 - Aug. 1 >Essex - Middle River Fair >Baltimore, Maryland > >Aug. 11 - Aug. 22 >Erie County Fair >Hamburg, New York > > >Which basically means they should be heading this way some time real soon. >They usually come up the Buffalo Line from Harrisburg to Buffalo where the >train is handed off to the Buffalo Southern at BC Junction. I havent >heard anything about them as of today but I can imagine that it will be >here sometime in the next few days. > > >On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, W. Terry Stuart wrote: > >>Does anyone on the list know the present location of the Geo. Straits Circus >>train? >> >>It was originally scheduled to be somehwere around Buffalo, Rochester, or >>Syracuse, NY at this time. >> >>Any help would be very much appreciated. >> >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >> >> > >W.J. Semanchuk-Enser Co-Network Admin - Technical Support >alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System >x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network >http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud >bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server > > Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net > > W.J. Semanchuk-Enser Co-Network Admin - Technical Support alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Apology to the List Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 23:48:47 -0400 (EDT) > Jerry, > > Your apology is accepted. I have always been of the opinion that it takes a > big man to publicly admit he made a mistake and you have done that. However, > I must admit I am somewhat disappointed as I guess I will not now be getting > the PRR-Talk's First Annual Weasel (First Class) Award. I did have a space > in my trophy case for it. > > Al Dang! I thought _I_ was getting it! -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Price" Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Agenda Update Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 22:48:28 -0000 -----Original Message----- From: Larry Denton To: stueart@ior.com ; Jerry Britton Cc: PRR-Talk LIST Date: Thursday, August 05, 1999 8:46 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Agenda Update >Gentlemen: > >Although I am not a member of the PRR Society, I do belong to one that >follows my railroad and try to do things in that organization. I joined >this list to learn something about the Delmarva Peninsular Operations and >have found many items to be of interest. > >I would like to say that I agree with Mr. Edwards in his opinion of the way >this your Society is headed is something similar to what happened on the >Southeast Modelers List when several people of one group decided that >several people of another opinion should not be with them, they severed the >ties and moved to another location. If you don't overlook some of the other >guys faults, you can't expect them to overlook yours. A train club(?) that I belong to recently had some differences of opinion and the solution was intresting enough. Simply pass some retroactivce rules targeted at specific members in order to run them out. Conspire and politic it and vote it in. I wonder if the same thing could happen here? I've heard that it worked to quell the infighting(provided that those targeted actually quit). Ed Ed It has to be a give >and take approach to make it work. I dare say that if you polled 50 of your >members, you would possibly have 50 opinions. > >I'll get off my soap box now. > >Larry Denton > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 20:28:41 -0700 Subject: [PRR] Competition Hi everyone, I don't really know if others out there have noticed this, but over the last few days, there has been a significant change in the nature of the PRR-Talk track presentation. When we started out, it was ALWAYS, ALWAYS stated that the plan was NOT to be competing with the Society in terms of scheduling events. Due to a series of many twists and turns, it would seem clear we are now in a position where we are doing exactly what we had said we would NOT be doing. Is everyone OK with that? I'm NOT saying we should no longer proceed, but what I AM saying is that we should all be aware of the change that has occured. IF we do proceed, we all need to be aware of doing so on this basis. There has been no open, explicit discussion of this. It seems to me there should be... The podium is open - anyone else have any thoughts on this??? - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER Missing Mail? Date: Fri, 6 Aug 99 06:50:57 -0400 From: Jerry A handful of you reported missing some posts yesterday, as evidenced by references to messages you did not receive. "PRR-Talk" had over 50 posts yesterday. I checked the logs, and several accounts, including the ones in question, returned bounces to the effect of "user over quota", "mailbox full", etc. That means that you could have gotten messages A, B, C, but when my server tried to send D it bounced. Then you retried A, B, C, and other mail. When my server got back to your server for message E, it would go through, as the mailbox is now at or near empty. That explains the holes. Also, the server may try to forward the missing mail again later, so you can end up getting stuff out of order. -------------------------------------- Listmaster Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. http://www.dsop.com listmaster@dsop.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Competition Date: Fri, 6 Aug 99 06:45:10 -0400 From: Jerry On 8/5/99 11:28 PM, Claus Schlund (schlund@cwnet.com) wrote: >I don't really know if others out there have noticed this, but >over the last few days, there has been a significant change in the >nature of the PRR-Talk track presentation. When we started out, >it was ALWAYS, ALWAYS stated that the plan was NOT to be competing >with the Society in terms of scheduling events. Agreed. > >Due to a series of many twists and turns, it would seem clear we are now >in a position where we are doing exactly what we had said we >would NOT be doing. Agreed. When National cancelled, we were the ones with the only program in Altoona. In effect, national began competing with us. This was unfortunate. I tried to broker an arrangement with Walt Keely to use our programs. Unfortunately, he only had meeting space from 12-3 on Friday, which wasn't enough for all three of our programs. AND, he told me that there was no space for Friday night. The latter changed, as Al Buchan's presentation is now Friday night. Had Walt conferred with me about the new opening Friday night, we could have moved our two remaining talks to Friday afternoon between 12 and 3. Unfortunately, Walt chose not to communicate with us. The other issue is that Brad Bower feels very strongly that we not move out of the museum, given the spread they have laid out for us, at no charge. I did not disagree, though I was perhaps not quite as firm on the issue. > >Is everyone OK with that? I'm NOT saying we should no longer >proceed, but what I AM saying is that we should all be aware >of the change that has occured. IF we do proceed, we all need to >be aware of doing so on this basis. Tough call. I, for one, am very excited about the X-29 presentation and personally don't want to see it cancelled! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Agenda Update Date: Fri, 6 Aug 99 06:35:57 -0400 From: Jerry On 8/5/99 6:48 PM, Price (eprice@skantech.net) wrote: >A train club(?) that I belong to recently had some differences of opinion >and the solution was intresting enough. Simply pass some retroactivce rules >targeted at specific members in order to run them out. Conspire and politic >it and vote it in. I wonder if the same thing could happen here? I've >heard that it worked to quell the infighting(provided that those targeted >actually quit). With a small train club, you might get away with some retroactive rules. However, with a large, formal organization, it's not that easy. Especially if they are incorporated, which I think the PRRT&HS (for tax reasons). I am on the board of directors of a not-for-profit in Pennsylvania (and was instrumental in its incorporation). I'm not sure what state the PRRT&HS would be incorporated in, but in Pennsylvania, under the not-for-profit, the members at large control the by-laws, etc. A central governing body (the board) can make the recommendations, edit the wording, etc., but the membership has to approve the changes. Furthermore, my own business is incorporated. However, since I own 100% of the stock, I can pull all the strings. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jwgotaskie@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 07:56:41 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] N5 #477297 Some of the N5 cabin cars were updated with the collision posts and I believe the A & B sub-classes of the car were built new with them. Greg Martin's brother (Ed?) had an excellent article on detailing an N5 a few years ago in Mainline Modeler. Sitting here at work and trying to remember what things look like, I think the Bowser car represents an N5-B. This may be the way the was (someone please correct me if I'm wrong): N5 - As built, no collision posts. N5A - As built, Collision posts. N5B - As built, Collision posts plus built in accomodations for train phone system. This by no ways means that I'm saying N5A's did not have train phones. The B's had an outside cabinet for the train phones that altered the location of side handrails. You can consult the cabin car data base on Keystone Crossings to determine which cars had collision posts and or train phones. Backdating a Bowser car to a straight N5 does require more than just cutting off the posts. The roof and end platforms on the subclasses were curved (or peaked?)at the point were the posts were located. These need to sanded down so they run straight across the body and then new end railings fabricated. I've been working on backdating a Bowser car and I just have to do the end railings and it's finished. Joe ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 09:26:38 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Athearn Genesis USRA Mikado From: "Jerry Britton" Looking at the Athearn ad in the latest Model Railroader. They are promoting their new Genesis USRA 2-8-2 Mikado, which is available in PRR livery. The add mentions "four body styles". I have the following questions: 1. Anyone know if one of the "four body styles" is a Belpaire firebox, making the unit a reasonably accurate L-1? 2. If "NO" to #1, did the PRR own any USRA Mikados? (I checked my cross-reference on "Keystone Crossings" -- under Motive Ops -- and there are no such references. But I am not an expert!) 3. If either #1 or #2 is "YES", are these units any good...in comparison, say, to a Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0 Consolidation or 4-6-2 Pacific? -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] Convention Controversy Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 09:42:45 -0400 Hi All! I have a few thoughts on the change in the convention plans and the fallout thereof. I agree that Jerry may have been a little short with Al over the change in plans, but I too would be more than a little miffed if a speaker cancelled under those conditions. It's not just that Jerry arranged for him to speak. A venue has been arranged, equipment spoken for, and now he cancels. The society has changed horses in mid stream at the last moment, and this is what has caused the conflict between the PRR-Talk track and the convention. Not that I can blame the society, as obviously they can't be concerned with what everybody else is doing when trying to organize a major convention. Their first and only concern is to pull their event off with the maximum amount of success. As for them vetoing using the museum for the venue, and thus not adopting the PRR-Talk event, I see their point. If the venue is too small, they can't really make use of it. However, I totally agree with Jerry that it would be very bad karma to cancel the use of the museum at this point, when they've gone to a lot of trouble to accomodate us. They certainly won't be interested in accomodating any of our requests ever again if we do. I don't see that either side is at fault or being unduly difficult here. It's just a bad combination of circumstances. The only questionable act in my opinion is Al's cancelling on PRR-Talk. It's now Aug. 6, three weeks before the convention, and the society should have finalized their speakers a long time ago. Al would have been well within his rights to say to them, "look, these guys were not competing with your program, and it's not right for me to cancel on them now, just because you guys decided to make major changes at the last minute." Don't consider that a condemnation of the conference organizers; I know that sometimes things have to be changed at the last minute. But other peoples events should not necessarily have to suffer because of it. An unfortunate situation indeed. Anyway, my two cents (one cent in Canadian $). Pat Lawless ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 09:33:26 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Convention Attendee List/Cyber Chapter From: "Jerry Britton" Just an update to the list on two projects: First, we have 30 subscribers planning to attend the convention. If you now plan to attend, but are not on the list, please submit your name, city, and state to me for inclusion on the list. (This list has no bearing on what events you attend; we just want to enable subscribers to meet each other.) Second, we have (thus far) 40 national PRRT&HS members signed up to become charter members of the Cyber Chapter, if approved. If you aren't on the list yet and want to be, please submit your full name, city, state, and national PRRT&HS membership number. (Once chartered we can welcome non-national members as well as additional national members.) Both of the aforementioned lists may be viewed at: http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com Thank you. -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 09:26:19 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genesis USRA Mikado >Looking at the Athearn ad in the latest Model Railroader. They are promoting >their new Genesis USRA 2-8-2 Mikado, which is available in PRR livery. The >add mentions "four body styles". I have the following questions: > >1. Anyone know if one of the "four body styles" is a Belpaire firebox, >making the unit a reasonably accurate L-1? The answer is NO >2. If "NO" to #1, did the PRR own any USRA Mikados? (I checked my >cross-reference on "Keystone Crossings" -- under Motive Ops -- and there are >no such references. But I am not an expert!) The answer is YES, class L-2...a forced purchase by the USRA during WWI of around a dozen locomotives. Most were disposed of fairly quickly, but apparently a few hung around at least up to WWII. Apparently these were mostly used in the hinterlands somewhere west of Pittsburgh (Tom V. should be in the market for one or two!). Pennsy Power 1 has a write up and photo. >3. If either #1 or #2 is "YES", are these units any good...in comparison, >say, to a Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0 Consolidation or 4-6-2 Pacific? The reviewers say as good as or better!!!! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genesis USRA Mikado Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 07:34:11 -0700 Jerry and all, The USRA light mikado is in no way similar (except in wheel arrangement) to the PRR's class L1s locomotive. In fact, the L1s was similar to the USRA heavy mike...some think that without the Belapire firebox it was the prototype for the USRA's heavy mike. However, the Pennsy DID own 5 of these locomotives (I think Gary Mittner has a shot of one of these on his website), classed L2s, used on the GR&I. During the USRA peroid the Pennsy had many more of these, but after the end of the USRA, they disposed of most of these. >From what I can tell of the photo, the Athearn USRA version (no Belpaire on these) is close to class L2s...probably differing in minor details (such as class lights, markers, and such). Of course, rival NYC had scads of these...good news for those modeling the Elmira branch! Although I have heard excellent reports from people who have seen the pre-production versions, nobody at this time can honestly compare them to the Bachmann locomotives. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 10:04:46 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genesis USRA Mikado Answering Jerry's guestions in order: 1. I have heard of no plans to do an L1 with Belpaire boiler. If the mechanism was any good, I don't know if a Bowser boiler would fit. I asked on the steamloco list and Andy Sperandeo replied that the USRA mikados at least had the Walscherts(sp?) valve gear. I will have to dig out my notes on driver diameter tonight. 2. Pennsy had 5 L2s mikados which were USRA design. I think they spent most of their time around Cincinatti. 3. The goal is that the Athearn units should be good performers; we'll have to wait for the reviews. I believe they hat have can or skewed armature motors and are DCC ready. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 12:10:18 EDT Subject: [PRR] Convention agenda Guys - Most of the time I just read the letters and gain more knowledge about this great hobby, but I'm sticking my 2 cents worth in on this one. It seems to me that if anyone from PRR - talk can help make the convention better for EVERYONE then they should do it. I appreciate the fact that Jerry and some others were trying to fill the gaps for the time periods they felt needed to be filled but there will be thousands of people there. Why not give your blessing to spreading some of the wealth of knowledge that the members of PRR - talk have to them? It is only going to make the convention better as some have felt it was lacking in areas and possibly draw more interest into the hobby and maybe even the cyber chapter. Many people don't have the time or are not within traveling distance to join a chapter and become ACTIVE members but as more and more households are gaining access to the Internet this may give them the nudge to join AND contribute some of their knowledge. We are all adults - shake hands. Set an example for all those interested. (We all knew the convention was coming up. Any one of us could have contacted those in charge at anytime during the planning stages and offered our help. Did we?) Dayna Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 11:26:54 -0700 From: Chuck Friedlein Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genesis USRA Mikado Jerry, After speaking with John Engstrom at the East Coast Hobby Show, I sent some information to him at Athearn on the PRR USRA locos, but don't know exactly how much other information they had already gathered by the time my information reached them. To answer your question, and to briefly restate what I sent Athearn in March '99--- The PRR didn't like these Schenectady-built locos and didn't keep many of them; hence, not much reliable information is available, and of course, only B/W photos. The ones they did keep were originally owned by the Grand Rapids & Indiana, a PRR subsidiary, and came to the PRR when USRA controls ceased and the PRR fully merged/incorporated the GR&I. I couldn't come up with any photos of them in GR&I lettering, but am advised they were black as delivered to the GR&I and passed on to the Pennsy. The Pennsy quickly sold off all but five, which it classed as L2s and renumbered to #9627-9731. The PRR also painted them DGLE and lettered them in gold. The headlight was repositioned to the top of the smokebox and a round brass number plate was cast, having a black field and bare brass numbers and outer border, and placed in the center of the smokebox cover. The standard pilot was replaced with a freight pilot (also called a drop step pilot). I also mentioned that the DGLE they'd been using for years on their F-units was way off and offered to send one of the PRRT&HS color drift cards on loan, but as I recall they already had gotten one for reference. That's all I know about the real locos, and I'm not sure exactly what information they got from anyone else besides me to help with the PRR accuracy. My guess on the "body style " variations would at least include the ability to relocate the headlight and bell, and add a number plate when necessary. I can't speak for the possibility of a Belpaire firebox, but with PRR and GN both using them, there might be a slim possibility of seeing this change in future production (personal opinion) as both road names are acknowledged good sellers, and there is reasonably easy variety that can be made on the models without much added tooling expense. Chuck Friedlein Jerry Britton wrote: > Looking at the Athearn ad in the latest Model Railroader. They are promoting > their new Genesis USRA 2-8-2 Mikado, which is available in PRR livery. The > add mentions "four body styles". I have the following questions: > > 1. Anyone know if one of the "four body styles" is a Belpaire firebox, > making the unit a reasonably accurate L-1? > > 2. If "NO" to #1, did the PRR own any USRA Mikados? (I checked my > cross-reference on "Keystone Crossings" -- under Motive Ops -- and there are > no such references. But I am not an expert!) > > 3. If either #1 or #2 is "YES", are these units any good...in comparison, > say, to a Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0 Consolidation or 4-6-2 Pacific? > -------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! > Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 14:51:56 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] Portage RR --On Wed, Aug 4, 1999 5:44 PM +0000 "Fred G Rea" wrote: > > > While a bit off topic, let me recommend the relatively new display at the > site of the old Portage RR. Also, there are "living history" demos during the summer months. Last week (on a Tuesday afternoon) I lucked into a very excellent stone cutting demo in which a trained volunteer showed how the various tools were used to quarry stone sleepers and went into great detail on the method of laying track 1830's British Style. Worth a visit by all with an interest in early transportation technology. Vagel Keller Pittsburgh ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 11:23:57 -0700 From: Silver Pines Farm Subject: [PRR] N2s Class List, The USRA N2s class was built with Walchearts valve gear from one builder, and Southern valve gear from the other. Both sets had their boilers rebuilt with belpaire fireboxes. Did the locos that were built with the southern valvegear get rebuilt with Walchearts, or did they keep their southern gear till they were scrapped? Thanks Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 17:13:06 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] N2s Class --Boundary_(ID_MbRpmgW/SmbtaEoC81tSoA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello list, Regarding PRR N2sa rebuilds from class N2s, all of the photos in Pennsy Power 3 (pages 115, 117) show the engines with Walschaerts valve gear. Some of the shots in Pennsy Power 1 are too dark, but shots on page 86 and 87 show the engines with Walschaerts valve gear. Pennsy Steam: A Second look shows N2sa 8189 on 4 June 1949 with Southern valve gear; this is on page 108. On that save page is shown an engine with Walschaerts valve gear (8389). All of the photos in Pennsy Steam: A to T show engines with Walschaerts valve gear (pages 180-182). Based on my small sample and my standard warning that a little knowledge (on my part) can be a dangerous thing, it looks like most of the engines were either built with or converted to Walschaerts valve gear at some point in their lives (not necessarily coinciding with the suturing in of the Belpaire firebox, which started in April 1925 with engine 7212 according to Edson's all-time Pennsy steam roster). Hope this helps! Doug Kisala Silver Pines Farm wrote: > List, > > The USRA N2s class was built with Walchearts valve gear from one > builder, and Southern valve gear from the other. Both sets had > their boilers rebuilt with belpaire fireboxes. Did the > locos that were built with the southern valvegear get rebuilt > with Walchearts, or did they keep their southern gear till > they were scrapped? > > Thanks > > Doug > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --Boundary_(ID_MbRpmgW/SmbtaEoC81tSoA) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello list,

Regarding PRR N2sa rebuilds from class N2s, all of the photos in Pennsy Power 3 (pages 115, 117) show the engines with Walschaerts valve gear.  Some of the shots in Pennsy Power 1 are too dark, but shots on page 86 and 87 show the engines with Walschaerts valve gear.  Pennsy Steam: A Second look shows N2sa 8189 on 4 June 1949 with Southern valve gear; this is on page 108.  On that save page is shown an engine with Walschaerts valve gear (8389).  All of the photos in Pennsy Steam: A to T show engines with Walschaerts valve gear (pages 180-182).

Based on my small sample and my standard warning that a little knowledge (on my part) can be a dangerous thing, it looks like most of the engines were either built with or converted to Walschaerts valve gear at some point in their lives (not necessarily coinciding with the suturing in of the Belpaire firebox, which started in April 1925 with engine 7212 according to Edson's all-time Pennsy steam roster).

Hope this helps!

Doug Kisala

Silver Pines Farm wrote:

List,

The USRA N2s class was built with Walchearts valve gear from one
builder, and Southern valve gear from the other.  Both sets had
their boilers rebuilt with belpaire fireboxes.  Did the
locos that were built with the southern valvegear get rebuilt
with Walchearts, or did they keep their southern gear till
they were scrapped?

Thanks

Doug

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--Boundary_(ID_MbRpmgW/SmbtaEoC81tSoA)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FarbLand@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 16:25:26 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genesis USRA Mikado In a message dated 8/6/99 2:47:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, diehexe@uswest.net writes: > I > can't speak for the possibility of a Belpaire firebox, but with PRR and GN > both > using them, there might be a slim possibility of seeing this change in > future > production (personal opinion) as both road names are acknowledged good > sellers, > and there is reasonably easy variety that can be made on the models without > much > added tooling expense. My 2 cents. One, Athearn has often taken liberty with prototypes in order to sell models, the ATSF style caboose lettered for PRR and the B&O DD40 come to mind. So I would not count on a future release with a Belpaire firebox. Although the new owners seem to be trying to be more accurate with respect to Prototype paint schemes. The Genesis line may be different who knows. Two, the four body variations are due too the two different pilots, (footboard or road) and I believ the other variation is headlight placement. The boiler is the same for all beased on the info I received from Athearn. Brian C ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 16:58:16 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genesis USRA Mikado Jerry and the List, Hi. Pennsy had a total of 38 USRA Light Mikes, but 33 of them didn't stay very long. There were 33 Light Mikes, numbered from 20006 to 20038, built by Alco and Lima in September and October of 1919 that soon went to the Missouri Pacific and the SLSF. My guess is that these engines were sold or returned to the USRA right around the time the USRA control of the railroads ended in 1920. Five USRA Light Mikes did stay on the PRR. Initially purchased for the GR&I, as their numbers 108 to 112, they were built by Alco in March 1919. They were renumbered (oddly enough, in sequence) to PRR 9627 to 9631 in 1921. All of the engines lasted past WWII, and all were dropped from the roster in 1948. My source for this is Edson's PRR All-time Steam Roster, page 370. I have the PRR engine on order even though it's completely inappropriate for my New York and Long Branch; I think the USRA Light Mikes are great looking engines, so I'm getting two (the other will be the B&O version). There are few photos of the engines relative to the numerous L1s class, but there are two shots in Pennsy Power 3 on page 97, one shot in Pennsy Power 1 on page 59, and one photo in Pennsy Steam: A to T, page 159. Initially these engines had centered headlights, but later the front end arrangement was adjusted to PRR practices. Hope this helps! Doug Jerry Britton wrote: > Looking at the Athearn ad in the latest Model Railroader. They are promoting > their new Genesis USRA 2-8-2 Mikado, which is available in PRR livery. The > add mentions "four body styles". I have the following questions: > > 1. Anyone know if one of the "four body styles" is a Belpaire firebox, > making the unit a reasonably accurate L-1? > > 2. If "NO" to #1, did the PRR own any USRA Mikados? (I checked my > cross-reference on "Keystone Crossings" -- under Motive Ops -- and there are > no such references. But I am not an expert!) > > 3. If either #1 or #2 is "YES", are these units any good...in comparison, > say, to a Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0 Consolidation or 4-6-2 Pacific? > -------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! > Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 16:53:05 -0500 From: Larry Reynolds Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genesis USRA Mikado Hi Jerry: I can't answer #1 or #3, but as far as question #2 is concerned, yes they did. I believe they owned a total of six class L2s. There is a photo of #9630 on page 59 of Staufer's Pennsy Power that looks like it will come pretty close to the Athearn model. The number that Athearn gives their Pennsy version is correct also. My bet is that it will be a good runner since it is being manufactured by Samhongsa. Sound's exciting to me. While we're on plastic steam, I just read the review of Bachman's K4 in MR. I'm surprised that they did not gig the model for incorrect driver size. I have one, and it's a nice engine, but I was very disappointed in the 76" drivers that they used. Kind of takes away from the beauty or the K4. Regards' Larry Jerry Britton wrote: > Looking at the Athearn ad in the latest Model Railroader. They are promoting > their new Genesis USRA 2-8-2 Mikado, which is available in PRR livery. The > add mentions "four body styles". I have the following questions: > > 1. Anyone know if one of the "four body styles" is a Belpaire firebox, > making the unit a reasonably accurate L-1? > > 2. If "NO" to #1, did the PRR own any USRA Mikados? (I checked my > cross-reference on "Keystone Crossings" -- under Motive Ops -- and there are > no such references. But I am not an expert!) > > 3. If either #1 or #2 is "YES", are these units any good...in comparison, > say, to a Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0 Consolidation or 4-6-2 Pacific? > -------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! > Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 15:35:00 -0700 From: Silver Pines Farm Subject: Re: [PRR] N2s Class Thanks Doug, Looks like at least #8189 was likely scrapped still equiped with the southern valve gear. Doug doug.kisala wrote: > > Hello list, > > Regarding PRR N2sa rebuilds from class N2s, all of the photos in > Pennsy Power 3 (pages 115, 117) show the engines with Walschaerts > valve gear. Some of the shots in Pennsy Power 1 are too dark, but > shots on page 86 and 87 show the engines with Walschaerts valve gear. > Pennsy Steam: A Second look shows N2sa 8189 on 4 June 1949 with > Southern valve gear; this is on page 108. On that save page is shown > an engine with Walschaerts valve gear (8389). All of the photos in > Pennsy Steam: A to T show engines with Walschaerts valve gear (pages > 180-182). > > Based on my small sample and my standard warning that a little > knowledge (on my part) can be a dangerous thing, it looks like most of > the engines were either built with or converted to Walschaerts valve > gear at some point in their lives (not necessarily coinciding with the > suturing in of the Belpaire firebox, which started in April 1925 with > engine 7212 according to Edson's all-time Pennsy steam roster). > > Hope this helps! > > Doug Kisala > > Silver Pines Farm wrote: > > List, > > The USRA N2s class was built with Walchearts valve gear from > one > builder, and Southern valve gear from the other. Both sets > had > their boilers rebuilt with belpaire fireboxes. Did the > locos that were built with the southern valvegear get > rebuilt > with Walchearts, or did they keep their southern gear till > they were scrapped? > > Thanks > > Doug > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message > "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 15:17:45 -0700 From: Chuck Friedlein Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genesis USRA Mikado Brian, I would agree with you on both counts, to a degree. It is very true that Athearn and all the other manufacturers who have been in business anywher near as long as Athearn have taken quite a lot of liberties in the models and the paint schemes they put on them. However, with the Genesis models, that liberty threshhold seems to have been drasitcally reduced. They are joining the likes of Life-Like's P2K, and others by listening to customers' wants as regards accuracy and operation, and are responding. I seriously doubt you'll see anywhere near as much liberty taken in painting these models as you did with the PRR on an ATSF caboose example. I also agree on the probability of the four variations being as you described. Let's just wait and see what happens once these first offerings are on the market and operating on some layouts for a while to see what comments are made by the owners. Chuck Friedlein FarbLand@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/6/99 2:47:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > diehexe@uswest.net writes: > > > I > > can't speak for the possibility of a Belpaire firebox, but with PRR and GN > > both > > using them, there might be a slim possibility of seeing this change in > > future > > production (personal opinion) as both road names are acknowledged good > > sellers, > > and there is reasonably easy variety that can be made on the models > without > > much > > added tooling expense. > > My 2 cents. One, Athearn has often taken liberty with prototypes in order to > sell models, the ATSF style caboose lettered for PRR and the B&O DD40 come > to mind. So I would not count on a future release with a Belpaire firebox. > Although the new owners seem to be trying to be more accurate with respect to > Prototype paint schemes. The Genesis line may be different who knows. > > Two, the four body variations are due too the two different pilots, > (footboard or road) and I believ the other variation is headlight placement. > The boiler is the same for all beased on the info I received from Athearn. > Brian C ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genesis USRA Mikado Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 16:34:56 -0700 >They were renumbered (oddly enough, in sequence) to PRR 9627 to 9631 in 1921. Hi, Just to set the record straight, ALL Pennsy locomotives built after the 1920 consolidation were numbered in sequence. (Here I go with another sweeping generality...watch somebody prove me wrong!) The reason for the original "hodge-podge" numbering system was that originally the Pennsy numbered locomotives to reflect the division they were to be assigned to. As you worked your way west, the numbers got higher. (This still shows up with Lines West locomotives being numbered in the 7000-and up series). Once the system was consolidated after the end of the USRA era, the neccessity for this disappeared, and locomotives were assigned blocked numbers as they were built. Bill Daniels ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 21:14:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genesis USRA Mikado If Athearn does not do the Belpaire fire box version, this would be a perfect project for someone to make a cast resin firebox which would fit over or into the Athearn. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] GG1 and HEP From: "Michael E. Allen" Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 23:47:13 EDT Gentlemen, Having been a regular commuter from Trenton to the District of Columbia during the late seventies/ early eighties I think I must have ridden behind every possible variant of locomotive and power car that Amtrak could dream up. There were two basic HEP cars. One type was built from army surplus hospital train kitchen cars. These are the ones that resemble short baggage cars. The other type was made by taking the rattiest old coach available, removing the seating, mounting fuel tanks in one end and a diesel generator in the other. While I suppose that there was some provision for an exhaust pipe the generator seemed to simply discharge int the car and allow the exhaust to seep out of the car where ever it could find an opening. These cars were easy to identify because of the cloud of blue smoke which surrounded them. MEA Being On Tue, 03 Aug 1999 17:40:00 -0500 "doug.kisala" writes: > >--Boundary_(ID_1s40wpXdEGuzs+T0WdMBJQ) >Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > >Hello to Doug N and the list, > >My Keystone magazines are still in storage, but I can dredge up the >following from memory. The ex-PRR Northeast Corridor is, to this day, >25Hz; the issue of the Keystone AFTER the Sunnyside Yard issue had >this >correction. If one could find a substitute for PCB (Polychlorinated >biphenyls) to put into a GG1's main transformer, perhaps one could >again >visit the Northeast Corridor. The stuff dreams are made of.... > >The January 1984 Railfan and Railroad had a great photo feature on the >GG1 retirement, and I'm sure others did as well. From what I recall, >4877 (restored to the tuscan red 5 stripe scheme) came up lame, and >one >of her black-painted sisters helped her retire the class. > >The last Amtrak GG1s were retired in 1981. One shot of ex-PRR 4935 >raises some questions. She's shown on page 246 of Pennsy Power III >pulling five Amfleet cars and a heritage car. Perhaps the GG1 >electrical system was compatible with the Amfleet cars (or that >heritage >car at the other end could be the HEP car, but why separate it from >the >locomotive). > >Another shot on page 246 shows 3 Amtrak GG1s pulling several Amfleet >cars. This is a pathetically small sample, but my guess is that the >GG1s were compatible electrically somehow with the Amfleet cars. > >I don't recall NJT owning any HEP cars; the lightweight steam heated >cars that supplanted the ex-CNJ coaches on the NJCL (the modern >incarnation of my beloved New York and Long Branch) remained in >service >until replaced with the Arrow and Comet series HEP-compatible cars and >F40PHs that arrived in 1983. > >Hope this helps!! > >Doug Kisala > > > >Doug and Marianne wrote: > >> >> >> With the retirement of the final GG1's in 1983 (I believe >> that was the year), the last steam heated passenger cars >> were also retired. Did these cars also have air brakes with >> air supplied from the locomotive? >> >> Is it correct that the replacement cars were heated, >> lighted, and braked?? with electric power supplied from the >> locomotive (Head End Power - HEP)? What kind of brakes do >> the new cars have? >> >> I remember that Amtrak used a HEP supply car during the >> transition period to power converted heritage and newer >> cars. Did NJ Transit use any HEP cars with their GG1's? I >> assume that NJT retired all of its steam heated cars at the >> time of the GG1 retirement. >> >> I also understand that the catenary power was changed from >> 25 to 60Hz. Did this change happen immediately following >> retirement of the GG1's? I assume that these two events >> were related. >> >> Any other information on the retirement of the GG1's is >> appreciated. Any and all responses are welcome. Thanks for >> the information. >> >> Doug N. >> >> babal@slip.net >> >> > >--Boundary_(ID_1s40wpXdEGuzs+T0WdMBJQ) >Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii >Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > > > > >Hello to Doug N and the list, >

My Keystone magazines are still in storage, but I can dredge up the >following from memory.  The ex-PRR Northeast Corridor is, to this >day, 25Hz; the issue of the Keystone AFTER the Sunnyside Yard issue >had >this correction.  If one could find a substitute for PCB >(Polychlorinated >biphenyls) to put into a GG1's main transformer, perhaps one could >again >visit the Northeast Corridor.   The stuff dreams are made >of.... >

The January 1984 Railfan and Railroad had a great photo feature on >the >GG1 retirement, and I'm sure others did as well.  From what I >recall, >4877 (restored to the tuscan red 5 stripe scheme) came up lame, and >one >of her black-painted sisters helped her retire the class. >

The last Amtrak GG1s were retired in 1981.  One shot of ex-PRR >4935 raises some questions.  She's shown on page 246 of Pennsy >Power >III pulling five Amfleet cars and a heritage car.  Perhaps the >GG1 >electrical system was compatible with the Amfleet cars (or that >heritage >car at the other end could be the HEP car, but why separate it from >the >locomotive). >

Another shot on page 246 shows 3 Amtrak GG1s pulling several >Amfleet >cars.  This is a pathetically small sample, but my guess is that >the >GG1s were compatible electrically somehow with the Amfleet cars. >

I don't recall NJT owning any HEP cars; the lightweight steam >heated >cars that supplanted the ex-CNJ coaches on the NJCL (the modern >incarnation >of my beloved New York and Long Branch) remained in service until >replaced >with the Arrow and Comet series HEP-compatible cars and F40PHs that >arrived >in 1983. >

Hope this helps!! >

Doug Kisala >
  >
  >

Doug and Marianne wrote: >

  >
With the retirement of the final GG1's in 1983 (I believe >that >was the year), the last steam heated passenger cars were also >retired.  >Did these cars also have air brakes with air supplied from the >locomotive? >

Is it correct that the replacement cars were heated, lighted, and >braked?? >with electric power supplied from the locomotive (Head End Power - >HEP)?  >What kind of brakes do the new cars have? >

I remember that Amtrak used a HEP supply car during the transition >period >to power converted heritage and newer cars.  Did NJ Transit use >any >HEP cars with their GG1's?  I assume that NJT retired all of its >steam >heated cars at the time of the GG1 retirement. >

I also understand that the catenary power was changed from 25 to >60Hz.  >Did this change happen immediately following retirement of the >GG1's?  >I assume that these two events were related. >

Any other information on the retirement of the GG1's is >appreciated.  >Any and all responses are welcome.  Thanks for the information. >

Doug N. >

babal@slip.net >
 

>
> > > > >--Boundary_(ID_1s40wpXdEGuzs+T0WdMBJQ)-- > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 08:22:59 -0700 (PDT) From: andy mulhollen Subject: [PRR] John Bull Replica at Altoona Greetings to the list, I just wanted to let everyone know that the John Bull replica which usually resides dormant at the PA State Railroad Museum at Strasburg, is visiting the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum for 2 weeks and is STEAMED UP and RUNNING in the museum yard.. It will only be running on this weekend and next. It was on its waay home from Railfair at the Calif State Railroad Museum, and stopped in for a visit to its home. For those of you not familiar with the John Bull, it's a replica of the 1st locomotive on the Camdon and Amboy RR (Bought by the PRR). The origional was consrtucted in england in 1831 and now resides at the Smithsonian. The replica was built by the PRR in 1939 at the Altoona Shops for the 1940 New York Worlds Fair. It ran in the "Railroads on Parade" pagent. The PRR actually tore down the original John Bull and made detailed drawings of it before it went oto the smithsonian. They then used these drawings to build the replica. If you can, come and see her!! Its not often you get to see pre-civil war locomtive technology at work. Plus how often do you get to see live steam in Altoona? Its worth the trip. Just thought you would like to know. Andy Mulhollen Altoona, PA _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Convention Agenda - National Update Date: Sat, 7 Aug 99 15:04:07 -0400 From: Jerry The Convention schedule has been updated... http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com The PRRT&HS has added two tours on Friday morning, a Friday afternoon session on modeling trains of the PRR, and a Friday evening open slide show (inc. Al Buchan's presentation). They have also added a non-railroad Trolly Tour on Saturday and a session on M-1's for after the banquet. Walt Keely has offered to disperse information about the "PRR-Talk" events (at the museum) within the registration packets. Everything is working out...there is only one event conflicting for time, though there are tightly-timed travel issues between a few sessions at different venues. Hope to see you there! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 20:54:05 EDT Subject: [PRR] Correct Trucks for Westerfield GLa, Post-1911 Hi Guys, I just ordered a Westerfield kit of a GLa hopper. Trucks are not included. Question is: Would a set of 50-Ton, Andrews be the proper trucks for this car? And if so, could someone please offer an opinion as to the most accurate rendition of what's available and who might carry them. Also, a question concerning the painting of these trucks. Westerfield shows a finished model of the GLa in their catalog. It's trucks are painted the same color as the rest of the car. Was this paint scheme an absolute, or were they sometimes painted black? Any, and all help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 01:36:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] Caloroso's PRR's Elmira Branch I had a copy. It walked. I'd like to replace it. Anyone know of any place which might still have a copy available? Please reply off-list. Thanks -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 07:26:11 -0700 From: Silver Pines Farm Subject: Re: [PRR] Correct Trucks for Westerfield GLa, Post-1911 George, The data I have lists the GLa as using the 2D-F1 archbar truck or the 2D-F8 cast steel truck in 1932. Of course the 2D-F1 was dropped from interchange about 9 years later. I haven't really looked at the archbar trucks available, but my favorite 2D-F8 truck is the one produced by Kadee. It is equiped with a cast steel bolster, the likes of which showed up in the mid to late 30's to replace the pressed steel bolster of the original design. The Kadee trucks are far more detailed than any others I have seen, and being sprung, will just about track in two scratched lines. Of course this is my own pure unadultrated biased opinion. Doug Eichhorn@aol.com wrote: > > Hi Guys, > > I just ordered a Westerfield kit of a GLa hopper. Trucks are not included. > Question is: Would a set of 50-Ton, Andrews be the proper trucks for this > car? And if so, could someone please offer an opinion as to the most > accurate rendition of what's available and who might carry them. Also, a > question concerning the painting of these trucks. Westerfield shows a > finished model of the GLa in their catalog. It's trucks are painted the same > color as the rest of the car. Was this paint scheme an absolute, or were they > sometimes painted black? Any, and all help would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > George > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FarbLand@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 12:49:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genesis USRA Mikado In a message dated 8/6/99 9:14:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, SUVCW ORR writes: > If Athearn does not do the Belpaire fire box version, this would be a > perfect project for someone to make a cast resin firebox which would fit over > or into the Athearn. > > Rich Orr Ok we all seem to be talking about the firebox. Does anyone know about the running gear. Are the Pilot trucks, Drivers and Trailing trucks close to the L1's???? I realize that this information probably won't be available until the locomotives come out, but has anyone gotten any inside information? Brian C ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 13:10:10 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Correct Trucks for Westerfield GLa, Post-1911 Hello list, I'm recalling this from memory, but Model Railroading's series on PRR hoppers (due out shortly as a book) stated in the GLa chapter that the cars were delivered with arch bar trucks, but later nearly all got the ubiquitous 2DF8 trucks. Now, with some 30000 hoppers in the class, I'm sure some could have had Andrews trucks. Having said that, I'd put Kadee's #517 trucks, which are good representations of the 2DF8 trucks. You could also use Bowser's freight car truck, which is also a representation of the 2DF8 (be careful, as some of Bowser's trucks have leaf and coil springs, making them 2DF12s, and inappropriate for a GLa). My own preference is for sprung trucks; they help compensate for my less than stellar track laying skills; I'd go with the Kadee trucks. The 2DF8 would be appropriate from the 1920s when they were developed from the outwardly similar, but weaker, 2DF4, to when the cars were retired. With their drooping sideframes, they also scream "Pennsy." As far as paint goes, I recall that during the first half of the century it was okay to paint trucks, but by the 60s and 70s, it was illegal to paint them for fear that potential defects such as cracks might be obscured from maintenance men and inspectors. Rightly or wrongly, I've painted the trucks on my PRR hoppers (H21s, H22s, and H31s) to match the body color. Hope this helps! Doug Eichhorn@aol.com wrote: > Hi Guys, > > I just ordered a Westerfield kit of a GLa hopper. Trucks are not included. > Question is: Would a set of 50-Ton, Andrews be the proper trucks for this > car? And if so, could someone please offer an opinion as to the most > accurate rendition of what's available and who might carry them. Also, a > question concerning the painting of these trucks. Westerfield shows a > finished model of the GLa in their catalog. It's trucks are painted the same > color as the rest of the car. Was this paint scheme an absolute, or were they > sometimes painted black? Any, and all help would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > George > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 19:27:04 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR]was Athearn USRA Mike now Bowser L-1 Rich and all, The underframe may work for the L-1 sorta but the boiler doesn't. It has a different taper altogether. There is no real reason to ignore the Bowser L-1 when with the effort of one of our own, Kris Kollar, results in such beautiful replica. He has done an amazing job, I have helped him as much as I could and I am going to encourage him to have his efforts published in Mainline Modeler as a two or three part article. He has been patient and willing to change a couple things and adapt a few and it is an AMAZING piece of work. Now, if you are reading, Kris, I want to publicly ask you if Al Stump and I can have permission to post some of the images to the RPM Webpage so we can all share in them as your efforts take complete shape. Honestly guys, if you would like to see some great work on a truly unsung hero I will send you zipped images of what Kris has done. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 04:11:22 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Correct Trucks for Westerfield GLa, Post-1911 Looking back through the mists of 50 years, to the endless strings of mineral trains passing by the front window in Latrobe, PA; trucks and wheels were painted with the same paint as the car bodies. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob ---"doug.kisala" wrote: > > Hello list, > > I'm recalling this from memory, but Model Railroading's series on PRR hoppers > (due out shortly as a book) stated in the GLa chapter that the cars were > delivered with arch bar trucks, but later nearly all got the ubiquitous 2DF8 > trucks. Now, with some 30000 hoppers in the class, I'm sure some could have had > Andrews trucks. Having said that, I'd put Kadee's #517 trucks, which are good > representations of the 2DF8 trucks. You could also use Bowser's freight car > truck, which is also a representation of the 2DF8 (be careful, as some of > Bowser's trucks have leaf and coil springs, making them 2DF12s, and inappropriate > for a GLa). My own preference is for sprung trucks; they help compensate for my > less than stellar track laying skills; I'd go with the Kadee trucks. The 2DF8 > would be appropriate from the 1920s when they were developed from the outwardly > similar, but weaker, 2DF4, to when the cars were retired. With their drooping > sideframes, they also scream "Pennsy." > > As far as paint goes, I recall that during the first half of the century it was > okay to paint trucks, but by the 60s and 70s, it was illegal to paint them for > fear that potential defects such as cracks might be obscured from maintenance men > and inspectors. Rightly or wrongly, I've painted the trucks on my PRR hoppers > (H21s, H22s, and H31s) to match the body color. > > Hope this helps! > > Doug > > > Eichhorn@aol.com wrote: > > > Hi Guys, > > > > I just ordered a Westerfield kit of a GLa hopper. Trucks are not included. > > Question is: Would a set of 50-Ton, Andrews be the proper trucks for this > > car? And if so, could someone please offer an opinion as to the most > > accurate rendition of what's available and who might carry them. Also, a > > question concerning the painting of these trucks. Westerfield shows a > > finished model of the GLa in their catalog. It's trucks are painted the same > > color as the rest of the car. Was this paint scheme an absolute, or were they > > sometimes painted black? Any, and all help would be greatly appreciated. > > > > Thanks, > > George > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 09:02:55 EDT Subject: [PRR] Cincinnati Division at Altoona - doubled In a message dated 8/7/99 3:17:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << Everything is working out...there is only one event conflicting for time, though there are tightly-timed travel issues between a few sessions at different venues. Hope to see you there! >> A point of humor -- it looks to me like the Cincinnati Division will be competing with itself. Our "Modeling Trains of the PRR" exhibit, featuring the killer modeling of my friends, will still be underway at the hotel when I will be starting "Faded Glory; Remembrances of the Pennsy Around Dayton". Either way, you're going to get a Lines West presentation by the Cincinnati Division. OTOH, since the Cincinnati Division motor pool will be tied up with the model exhibit, I may have to bum a ride over to the Museum. It's a bit far to walk. Looking forward to seeing all of you at Altoona. Rick Tipton Louisville KY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 09:34:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Correct Trucks for Westerfield GLa, Post-1911 In a message dated 8/9/1999 6:19:59 AM Central Daylight Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: << Looking back through the mists of 50 years, to the endless strings of mineral trains passing by the front window in Latrobe, PA; trucks and wheels were painted with the same paint as the car bodies. >> One of the Herron PRR videos clearly shows a freshly painted hopper with bright freight car color trucks in a train about 1938 (early color film). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 09:00:53 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] N5A??? was N5 #477297 Joe said: >This may be the way the was (someone please correct me if I'm wrong): >N5 - As built, no collision posts. >N5A - As built, Collision posts. ^^^ I know the N5 was built in the 10's and 20's and the N5B was built in the early '40s...so can anyone tell me nore about the N5A? A quick search of the KC roster showed 4 active at the time (50's). How many were built/modified? Major differences from the N5 and N5B other than the collision posts and cabinet mentioned in Joe's post? If the Bowser is really an N5B, I have some reapinting to do ... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Sean121982@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 12:57:30 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] NS To Expand? (fwd) HA! NS cant even run the railroad that they already own! how do they expect to run a larger system? sean mcd ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 12:44:27 -0400 (EDT) From: alcoman Subject: [PRR] NS To Expand? (fwd) Thought this might be of interest to the list W.J. Semanchuk-Enser Co-Network Admin - Technical Support alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net >> NORFOLK SOUTHERN EXPANSION?: >> Numerous reports indicate that Norfolk Southern is interested in >> purchasing the former Pennsylvania Railroad "Panhandle" mainline from >> the Ohio Central System. The line extends from Mingo Junction, OH to >> Columbus, OH. Acquisition of the line would help to ease severe >> congestion. Norfolk Southern officials have surveyed the property and >> have placed it at the top of their priorities list. No further details >> are available at this time. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 11:58:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Correct Trucks for Westerfield GLa, Post-1911 In a message dated 08/09/1999 9:53:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bobspf@aol.com writes: << << Looking back through the mists of 50 years, to the endless strings of mineral trains passing by the front window in Latrobe, PA; trucks and wheels were painted with the same paint as the car bodies. >> One of the Herron PRR videos clearly shows a freshly painted hopper with bright freight car color trucks in a train about 1938 (early color film). >> PRR painting instructions (in part) : Newly constructed cars -- trucks black (actually unpainted natural metal as delivered) . Repainted cars trucks freight car color. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] NS To Expand? (fwd) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 14:08:49 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell On 9 Aug, alcoman wrote: > >> NORFOLK SOUTHERN EXPANSION?: > >> Numerous reports indicate that Norfolk Southern is interested in > >> purchasing the former Pennsylvania Railroad "Panhandle" mainline from > >> the Ohio Central System. They suddenly discovered that it's an easy way to relieve congestion; they've been routing trains over it to help move traffic. Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 14:39:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] NS To Expand? (fwd) In a message dated 08/09/1999 12:54:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, alcoman@net.bluemoon.net writes: << NORFOLK SOUTHERN EXPANSION?: >> Numerous reports indicate that Norfolk Southern is interested in >> purchasing the former Pennsylvania Railroad "Panhandle" mainline from >> the Ohio Central System. The line extends from Mingo Junction, OH to >> Columbus, OH. Acquisition of the line would help to ease severe >> congestion. Norfolk Southern officials have surveyed the property and >> have placed it at the top of their priorities list. No further details >> are available at this time. >> So it they purchase the Carneige cluster back from Pittsburgh Terminal or get running rights, then they would only need to relay about 50 miles of track to open the Panhandle from Pittsburgh to Columbus. This would also relieve the burgeoning congestion at Island Avenue yard, IA is now serving as an interchange point with CSX, PT, and AV as well as locals and overflow from Conway Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Nixon" Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 15:10:33 EST5EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] NS To Expand? The airport busway is now built (not operational yet) over the route from Corliss to Carnegie, so there would be no chance of getting tracks there. The west end of Carnegie is still there via the Pittsburgh Industrial RR, so there could be possibility of running using their tracks, but not the old panhandle route. Bill Nixon In a message dated 08/09/1999 12:54:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, alcoman@net.bluemoon.net writes: << NORFOLK SOUTHERN EXPANSION?: >> Numerous reports indicate that Norfolk Southern is interested in >> purchasing the former Pennsylvania Railroad "Panhandle" mainline from >> the Ohio Central System. The line extends from Mingo Junction, OH to >> Columbus, OH. Acquisition of the line would help to ease severe >> congestion. Norfolk Southern officials have surveyed the property and >> have placed it at the top of their priorities list. No further details >> are available at this time. >> SUVCWORR@aol.com writes: So it they purchase the Carneige cluster back from Pittsburgh Terminal or get running rights, then they would only need to relay about 50 miles of track to open the Panhandle from Pittsburgh to Columbus. This would also relieve the burgeoning congestion at Island Avenue yard, IA is now serving as an interchange point with CSX, PT, and AV as well as locals and overflow from Conway Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] NS To Expand? (fwd) From: Fred G Rea Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 16:39:34 EDT As I understand it OC does not own it, the State of Ohio does. OC may own the old W&LE Brewster to Zanesville line but not the panhandle. Frankly, I think OC has doe a wonderful job of turning it into to a well run busy RR, why give it to NS. Wait, haven't we heard that before? Fred Rea ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 13:56:40 -0700 From: Chuck Friedlein Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR] I suppose it depends on the amount of differences between the GN and the PRR locos and how Athearn might be willing to handle tose so they would not be so visible. I don't have much technical information on the GN locos myself, so can't speak with any accuracy as to how something like that could be achieved. Who know what Athearn might try (?). I haven't heard anything from them on this loco mechanism's possible future uses, so we'll just have to wait and see. Chuck Friedlein padraice@megsinet.net wrote: > Chuck Friedlein mentioned GN and PRR having Belpaire boilered Mikados as a possible justification for Athearn doing something for Pennsy. True, but neither the designs of any of the locomotives, or even shape of the Belpaire fireboxes were in common between the two roads. Even the USRA Mikados were different. The Pennsy had lights, GN had heavys. Nice try. > > I believe the only locomotives in common between the two companies were the electrics the Pennsy bought from GN, and some diesels. > Pat Egan > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 14:59:37 -0500 (CDT) From: padraice@megsinet.net Subject: [PRR] Chuck Friedlein mentioned GN and PRR having Belpaire boilered Mikados as a possible justification for Athearn doing something for Pennsy. True, but neither the designs of any of the locomotives, or even shape of the Belpaire fireboxes were in common between the two roads. Even the USRA Mikados were different. The Pennsy had lights, GN had heavys. Nice try. I believe the only locomotives in common between the two companies were the electrics the Pennsy bought from GN, and some diesels. Pat Egan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rla0220@enter.net Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 17:26:55 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 08/09/99 In ref. to the John Bull: Does it run on both Sat. and Sun? And at what times? Just might venture out for the day. Thank you. Rich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] NS To Expand? (fwd) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 18:27:52 -0400 (EDT) alcoman sends along: > > >> NORFOLK SOUTHERN EXPANSION?: > >> Numerous reports indicate that Norfolk Southern is interested in > >> purchasing the former Pennsylvania Railroad "Panhandle" mainline from > >> the Ohio Central System. The line extends from Mingo Junction, OH to > >> Columbus, OH. Acquisition of the line would help to ease severe > >> congestion. Norfolk Southern officials have surveyed the property and > >> have placed it at the top of their priorities list. No further details > >> are available at this time. Hmm ... Next they'll be buying ... the rest of the Fort Wayne they gave up to CSX???? :-) or will they reinstall the remainder of the Panhandle main to Chicago instead??? Speaking of which, are there any list.members in the Canton - Massillon - Mansfield - Crestline area? Given that the old Fort Wayne is now split in half, ownership- wise, what has happened to traffic? Has traffic picked up on the CSX half, west of Crestline? Has NS traffic on the eastern half of it (excluding east of Alliance, of course) plummeted? Or is NS running trains out to Bucyrus, then up onto their ex-PRR Sandusky line? -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 18:52:14 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Bowser T1 Assembly Quirks Hello list, I've been assembling my Bowser T1 at a slow but steady pace, and I've discovered some quirks along the way. They are minor, and the kit has been very fun, but I thought I'd pass them along. I needed several washers between my Alco Products repower kits and the frames to get decent gear mesh. The good news is that with the Alco Products kits, the engine will run smoothly on a 22" radius curve. Before you take me to task for doiing this, I live in a dorm, and this is the largest curve I can shoehorn into my room; my dream layout has 30" curves sketched in (now, I just need to find an unused basketball court to build it). The mechanism went together quite well; there wasn't much flash. I did end up bending the crosshead guides outward a bit to be sure they cleared the main rods. Once I had both front and rear engines running smoothly, I dissassembled them, painted them, and after reassembly, put a bit of super glue in each crankpin screw hole; it keeps things from vibrating loose. In general, test fit detail parts in their holes; sometimes the holes are too small. There are a total of eight long handrail posts, part number 90481, four used on each side. Drill out these holes to accomodate the posts, as tapping them in will bend these lost wax castings. I got lucky, and only bent mine a little, and I could still pull it out to straighten in. Once I got these tricky little guys in place, I super glued them to be secure. The electrical junction boxes, part number 90367 are challenging to drill out; proceed with caution, oil, and care. I chose to substitute .060 styrene, drilled out to accomodate the .015 wire I used for handrails; it's not quite as accurate, but it's a lot more forgiving. You could also use Cary p/n 13-127, but I've not worked with them. I have worked with the Cal Scale junction boxes, p/n 190-383, and they're quite easy to clean out and use. I didn't have enought .062 wire to pipe the firebox sides with, but I got lucky and found some that was close enough in my supplies; lay in some extra .062 wire before you start. Also, be prepared to ream out the 190-6306 pipe holders; they're a bit too tight for the .062 wire as they come from the box. Don't install the tender details until after you've painted the tender deck; I'm now facing some very painstaking work with a brush to fix my overeagerness. I wanted to add a Cal Scale water scoop set, p/n 190-2004, to my tender, and I cut three thicknesses of .060 styrene to the rough shape of a center sill and glued them together to make a mounting pad for the scoop. I used goo to secure the scoop, actuator, and tank to the tender underframe. I'd suggest using .015 wire for the handrails and grab irons. Bowser's holes are a little too tight for the .020 wire they supply, but are perfect for the smaller size. I've built up a pad from about a dozen thicknesses of .060 styrene to add a working front coupler, though with the way this thing pulls, any need for doubleheading is purely cosmetic. My engine is now ready for paint (I'm still debating between some interpretation of DGLE or Polly Scale's grimy black because details show up well with the grimy black, compensating for the inaccuracy of the color, at least in my eyes). Slipping, with both of the Alco Products can motors at full bore, the engine draws only 1 amp; I lacked the cold-heartedness necessary to stall her and measure the amp draw there. Besides, unlike her prototypes, she was running consistently well. Bowser makes a really nice kit; most of the challenges I've faced have been minor. The Alco Products can motors are very straightforward, and I recommend them, too. I really liked not having to drill all the holes for the detail parts. I'm planning on building their deluxe K4s or L1s (alas, I already have an I1sa) next; not drilling holes in zinc is definitely worth the money to me. Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 21:37:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Correct Trucks for Westerfield GLa, Post-1911 George & folks, Incidental to your question regarding Crown trucks, EB Models makes a nicely sprung version available in black, tuscan or "boxcar" red (the boxcar color is a nice shade of oxide) and they are fine rollers, being an updated version of the old Lindbergs. Prices are not bad, and the trucks are available with plastic, brass or nickel-silver wheels. you might check them out. Seems to me the fella at Park Varieties sells them, and he's on this list, or at least was. Even if you don't want them for Pennsy use, they're a nice truck, FWIW. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] N5A??? was N5 #477297 Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 23:30:18 -0500 According to The Keystone for December 1973, there were four N5A's built, modified from N5's in 1937. They differed from the N5 by having a Duryea cushion underframe. No other differences were noted. All N5B's were constucted new. No mention is made in the article of collision posts. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jwgotaskie@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 07:23:13 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cincinnati Division at Altoona - doubled > OTOH, since the Cincinnati Division motor pool will be tied up with the model > exhibit, I may have to bum a ride over to the Museum. It's a bit far to walk. I don't think that's going to be problem. Joe ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 07:27:22 EDT Subject: [PRR] 5300 and 5400 K4's on Columbus and Cincinnati Divisions Gize, At Summerail on Saturday, I got the chance to root through Pennsy prints at the Big Four Graphics table (Jay Williams, assisted that day by Bill Nixon). I started to notice that the passenger shots west of Columbus (mostly the work of Richard Acton, Sr.) featured a lot of K4s locomotives between 5300 and 5499. Perhaps I'm sensitized because Jack Fravert's not-yet-auctioned K4 keystone is 5365, but it seemed like a lot of similar-numbered engines in one place. Was this just chance, or were these K4's assigned to our area in batches? Anybody know the story? BTW, at least one of Richard's photos showed doubleheaded K4s on a passenger train. This brings to mind the admonition of an old engineer who ran out of Columbus pre-WWII: "that line west of Xenia had almost no passing sidings. And the ones it had were short. If you had two K4's and 16 cars or less, you knew you could fit in what few sidings were there. And if you had 18 cars, you knew you were in trouble". Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 07:27:19 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Logansport, Indiana In a message dated 7/30/99 11:36:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com writes: << Dear PRR gang: I am looking for a map of the Logansport area. I have misplaced my own copy which was a PRR map showing the yards, the tracks, and the interlocking towers. Specifically, the map was drafted by the PRR circa 1928 and I believe it was to scale. I think that this map was part of article or a book but I don't know for sure. Has anyone else seen this type map and if so, where? I think that I still have it but I must of hid it from myself :-)~ Before anyone mentions it, I looked on Mark Bej's webpage. He does have maps if the Logansport area along with the yards. However, these maps are schematic sketches and are not the one that I am looking for. The map that I am looking for was a PRR drawing (to scale) of the Logansport area showing the individual tracks, turnouts, yards, etc. i believe the date of the drawing was in the 1920's. Any info. that you can provide I would greatly apprecipate it! Within a few weeks, I am laying down track for my HO scale layout which includes the "Van" interlocking in Logansport. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana P.S.: Mark Bej's website is a great online source for PRR Interlocking diagrams and the 1959 PRR freight schedules. >> Ted, I've been out of town a lot, but your message caught my eye -- somewhere (Fall 81 Rails Northeast) there was reproduced a two-page "Railroad Map of Logansport, Ind." from the "Office of Chief Engineer, P.R.R., Phila. Pa. April 1941". I know this because I can find a Xerox of it -- but the original article is packed away in my mags. This is the same map that I burned a lot of bandwidth describing to Mark Bej some months back. It is to scale, has industrial spurs, some major buildings, and all interlockings shown. The yard tracks as shown are accurate track counts and layouts from everything else I've been able to determine. It shows most of yard A, RACE, all of yard B and the shops area, VAN, the east throat of Yard C, and off to the north Yard X and FERN. It also shows the collateral Wabash line and its stations. An inset shows CLYMERS south on the Vandalia line to Frankfort. It's a lot of detail for a couple of 8.5x11 sheets, and answered a lot of my questions. Since I still don't have a scanner, and since you're going to want just as high quality a copy as possible, I suggest you hold out for a good hardcopy of the RNE pages, from me or someone else. If you need a copy of our "Logansport Chronicles" drivel, I can send that to you electronically. BTW, I wish someone could do for Frankfort what this map does for Logansport. I wasn't a frequent visitor there either, and would love to know more about the Pennsy and other railroads there. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:19:59 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: [PRR] Re: [pcl] Re: [PRR-FAX] ***please help announce this list... Barry, I just went to the onelist website (www.onelist.com) and using my id, logged in. A search for "PRR" as an interest group yielded several lists but none were PRR-FAX. I joined the one which claims to be a moderated list on PRR history, and received a welcome message with the banner "[PRR]". This is the same banner that Jerry uses in PRR-Talk. I am glad to have found this new list, but is it the "PRR-FAX" you spoke of? -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:58:12 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] NS To Expand? (fwd) That NS would respond to congestion by buying new trackage is indicative of its abysmally clueless approach to railroading in the Northeast. What is needed is competent management, pure and simple. And that isn't possible, because most (if not all) of the competent, experienced people needed to handle this mess in traffic, motive power, personnel relations, and customer service were either moved south at lower pay or left for CSX. Before NS buys more track, it needs to get the chaw of 'baccy outten its collective mouth, kick the coon dogs off the front porches of its engines, and figure out how to get crews out to all the dead trains between Altoona and Harrisburg! Pardon my mostly off-topic rant, but I, for one, am enraged by the Wreck of the Penn Central, Pt. Deaux that I witness at the foot of my street every day. As a native Pennsylvanian, I am offended by NS's plantation mentality in dealing with employees and its cavalier approach to assuming control of a complex transportation system. I used to respect the NS as a well-managed, fiscally conservative common carrier. No more. Vagel Keller Pittsburgh, PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 08:47:39 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: [PRR] Re: Frankfort & Other stuff Rick & Group: Let me second the request for clarity at Frankfort. I've been there a couple of times and have only a rough idea. Let me zero in on something about Frankfort that has intrigued me for some time, now. Obviously, this was a point on a former Vandalia branch line (TH&L) long before it became--in 1918--a through Indianapolis & points south to Chicago main. The opening of the I&F brought with it a number of changes to the Frankfort layout, most important of which was a brand new passenger station. As most know who have visited, the last passenger station in use was a converted freight depot, now part of a lumber and hardware store. But a much newer facility was located several blocks south, I believe, roughly where the PRR crossed the primary east-west street downtown. I only know of this station because I stopped in at the local library and stumbled across a faded old b&w photo in a scrapbook there. Does anyone have further info and/or a photograph of the station? As I recall, it was a modern, utilitarian design. Nothing fancy, but not a simple small-town depot either. Studying old O.G.s, it appears that this new Frankfort station was intended to be a transfer point between trains to and from Chicago, and those serving Logansport and points north to South Bend. This eliminated the need for the lengthy backup move from Van into the downtown Logansport (5th Street or Logansport Div. station). It was also the point where connection was made to the former Vandalia branch to Terre Haute, a gas-electric car run in its last days. At some point well before WWII, this "new" Frankfort station was eliminated, possibly demolished accidentally (a wreck?) and the former freight depot converted to take its place. Frankfort also ceased to be an important transfer point, either as a cause or a result of the change. Does anyone know for certain? As for your question, Rick: no, I have had no response to my Peoria branch query, which means I will have to be vague in my article--whenever I get to it. But may I request this "Logansport Chronicles" thing you mentioned earlier? I have tramped around L-port enough to be curious. And here's one further question (as long as were at it): On one of my visits I managed to get a look at the old PRR shops from the east side and noticed the old brick or stone buildings along one edge of the property. Are these rather ancient-looking structures remnants of the original Chicago & Great Eastern shops of 1867? Thanks for your time and efforts, all of you. Peace. Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:55:53 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] ***please help announce this list... From: "Jerry Britton" > I just went to the onelist website (www.onelist.com) and using my id, > logged in. A search for "PRR" as an interest group yielded several lists > but none were PRR-FAX. I joined the one which claims to be a moderated > list on PRR history, and received a welcome message with the banner > "[PRR]". This is the same banner that Jerry uses in PRR-Talk. > > I am glad to have found this new list, but is it the "PRR-FAX" you spoke > of? The "other" PRR list, as well as another moderated list on Signalling, were both created when Bill Strassner left PRR-Talk. If you will recall, Bill and Mark Bej were really going at each other. Bill was flinging adjectives at Mark for "speculating" on some matters and not providing references to facts. Mark responded that all material on PRR-Talk was one of historical opinion, which I agree with, since the company has been gone for over 30 years. There are few PRR ex-employees on the list, that I know of, and some seem to expect us to take their word for it...without documentation, because they worked there. That has some creedence, but not enough. On moderation of the list...who is qualified? I am not, for sure! Because Bill didn't like being asked to "back down", he unsubscribed and started his own lists. I'm not sure what the volume is on these lists. I know initally (about two months ago) one PRR-Talk member who had joined indicated that there was maybe a post or two a day...sometimes days would go by without any messages. This may have changed. Also, Mark reported that his attempt to join the list but was refused, contrary to OneList's charter that they are not allowed to do this on a public list. Another interesting fact is that some of the folks who argued against "advertising" in the footers of "PRR-Talk" posts moved to the OneList lists. Yet OneList does the same thing AND they sell their subscription lists (as documented in several magazines over the past year or so). Want SPAM? Join a OneList list! Finally, I hope there is not a mass intent to "jump ship" from "PRR-Talk". I made some posts in bad taste, to which I have admitted publicly, and I want to return things to "business as usual" -- which has seemed to be the case for the past several days. I can share with you that the number of subscribers has not been reduced since the recent "flame war", other than the half a dozen or so accounts (out of 340+) that are now bouncing with the error "unknown user" (which just means the person changed ISP's). I certainly hope all of you will remain active on "PRR-Talk". I can only offer to you an additional apology for my actions last week if you were negatively affected by it. Thank you. P.S. If there is substantial interest in changing the format (e.g. moderation, allowable subject matter, etc.) of "PRR-Talk", let me know publicly or privately. -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:52:52 -0400 Subject: [PRR] CORRECTION - Re: [PRR-FAX] ***please help announce this From: "Jerry Britton" > I just went to the onelist website (www.onelist.com) and using my id, > logged in. A search for "PRR" as an interest group yielded several lists > but none were PRR-FAX. I joined the one which claims to be a moderated > list on PRR history, and received a welcome message with the banner > "[PRR]". This is the same banner that Jerry uses in PRR-Talk. > > I am glad to have found this new list, but is it the "PRR-FAX" you spoke > of? Correcting my original post, the new list is "PRR", not "PRR-FAX", and it was just created by former PRR-Talk subscriber Bill Strassner. I had quoted that he started two lists when he left PRR-Talk a few months ago. This was not one of the two. This one was just started on 8/7/99, so I have learned from my contacts at OneList. Again, I hope you will all stick around PRR-Talk and give me a chance to redeem myself. I would like to make a few comments to compare and contrast the two lists: * Bill is high on "moderation". I really cannot see how moderation can work with subject matter of historical nature. If you have an idea, let me know. I will entertain all suggestion. * Bill also promotes sticking to the subject matter. I just checked the PRR-Talk archive and found that on numerous occasions he made posts about computer viruses! * Bill is also high on civility, but I think you ought to read all of the tongue-in-cheek inuendos describing his list on OneList. Quite entertaining! Also, check out the flames at Mark Bej in the PRR-Talk archives. This is not intended to start a flame war. In fact, such responses will be ignored for the good of this list. However, I needed to correct my previous post, still being circulated, as I was misinformed and thought this list was the one he started several months ago. I also wanted to point out, by the preceding paragraph, that not all that Bill claims is as factual as he'd like you to believe. Enough said. Thanks. -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Special promo on Miracle Castings shells! Red Caboose on sale in August, by customer demand!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] CORRECTION - Re: [PRR-FAX] ***please help announce this Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 13:35:55 -0400 (EDT) > Correcting my original post, the new list is "PRR", not "PRR-FAX", and it > was just created by former PRR-Talk subscriber Bill Strassner. I had quoted > that he started two lists when he left PRR-Talk a few months ago. This was > not one of the two. This one was just started on 8/7/99, so I have learned > from my contacts at OneList. Bill _did_ in fact ... oops, I should say, I think it was he ... start 2 lists up front. One was Railway Signaling, the other was called something like NE-Rails-and-Signals. The PRR one must be new. > * Bill is also high on civility, but I think you ought to read all of the > tongue-in-cheek inuendos describing his list on OneList. Quite entertaining! > Also, check out the flames at Mark Bej in the PRR-Talk archives. Careful there ... "tongue in cheek" generally means sarcastic, but sarcastically _humorous_. But then again, I'm no PhD in English. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 12:14:54 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: [PRR] Re: Friendship and fealty Oh brother, am I gonna get it now... posting the same message to competing lists. As a newcomer to both (as well as a cyber-novice--is that correct?), I have got to tell you, this has been quite a ride so far. I came through the door just as the prr-talkers were firing at each other over scheduling at the convention. I ducked and ran for the sidelines. Then, no sooner do I find a seat in the onelist org than a competitive war seems imminent between the two lists. Hey, look, I love you all. Honest. But there is a selfish reason I'm on line with you: I'm a Pennsylvania Railroad fan, a "something-of-a-railroad-historian" type of guy with an abiding interest in the home road; a member of PRRT&HS for close to 15 years with a whole bunch of ex-PRR people in my family tree. And I'll bet most of the rest of you could claim much the same. Except for modeling. I don't do it because I: (A.) Don't have the time, and (B.) Spend all my spare cash on photocopying costs as I work my way through libraries great and small. The point is, I'm here because we share something: the railroad. (And I have to tell you: the part I like best is that I have met some pretty cool people over the past ten years as I've researched Lines West.) Now, perhaps you think this is going to be a "why can't we all get along" sermon. Nope; I would not presume such authority or assume such a moral position. After all, we obviously have some differences of opinion. Fine by me; I enjoy a good debate. However, I do expect us to be civil to one another, to abide by the rules of good scholarship, and to extend the courtesies of mutual friendship. The last thing I need or want is to have to choose sides. Don't even try to make me. If you do, I'll... I'll... by golly, I'll start another PRR list. Then we can have three times the opportunity to share the Pennsylvania. :-) Peace, brothers. Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 14:12:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] The bridges of Conemaugh Dam? So, with the ongoing drought, I'm considering (not this week when I'm on-call for work) going for a walk back into the Conemaugh Dam impound area and taking a look at the surviving stone arch spans from the alignment of the Conemaugh Division before the dam was built. From maps and scouting it appears I can get in along the southern edge of the "lake" in public land at one spot (there are no signs warning against trespassing) and another spot at the end of a road leading to the Westinghouse nuclear fuels plant (where I haven't yet checked for warnings). Anyone done this, have any suggestions, or assuming I can come up with a "when" be interested in joining me? -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 14:25:26 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT: Feedback Received/Acted Upon From: "Jerry Britton" Over the past few hours I have received numerous e-mails containing feedback about the "PRR-Talk" list. Much has been positive, and some has been negative. I welcome both, as I said I would. I also said that I would consider all suggestions. To demonstrate that I have done this in the past, please consider that: * Some folks didn't like ads in the footers of posts. They were removed many months ago. (E-mail signatures don't count!) * Some folks didn't like the eBayWatch daily postings. They were removed after only a week or so. * Folks wanted a prefix added to message subjects for easier sorting in their e-mail software. The "[PRR]" prefix was added (over a year ago). So, I do respond. And I welcome your continued constructive criticism. Again, if you want moderation, we can give it a try. However, I reiterate that I think it is very hard to moderate historical accuracy on a company that has been defunct for 30 years. There are some documents out there, which help, but there is still a great deal of conjecture inherent to the topic. Example: How did the "big engine" get to the World's Fair? Unless you've got the actual order in hand, which we'd all like to see, all we can do is "project" the possibilities. (That was an actual discussion about 18 months ago!) As has been the case, please include references with facts, and point out when something is an opinion or conjecture. Also note the "TANGENT" that I placed in my subject line. This, or "TAN", is a widely used notation to indicate that the post is off-topic, but still relevant to list subscribers. Thank you...from your "in the doghouse" listmaster! -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 17:10:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] NS To Expand? (fwd) Vagel & folks, Didn't the N&W do this same thing to the Wabash 35 years ago? Talk about a bumpkin tracking mud into the living room, and then using a Corvette to haul bricks, so to speak. Some folks just got no class. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 16:20:21 EDT Subject: [PRR] SNAPPERS - A QUESTION (AGAIN) In a message dated 8/2/99 8:09:32 PM EST, VVA249@aol.com writes: THERE WERE "NO TAKERS" ON THIS QUESTION LAST WEEK - ANYONE CARE TO COMMENT? << Re: Using an L-1 as a snapper on passenger trains, I believe there was a period when this was commonly done in Emporium PA up the hill to Keating Summit, Bill Bigler >> It was my impression that the term "Snapper" on the PRR referred to the use of a Yard Engine to start a heavy train, and would therefore, always be on the rear end. A "Snapper" would be used only within the Yard Limits - with no extra pay to the crew. It's my impression that the situation described above - using an extra engine up the hill - would be called a "Helper" - regardless of its position on the train, and once the extra engine crossed the Yard Limits the crew would be entitled to extra pay. COMMENTS? Dick Ross Cleveland, Ohio ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 20:04:04 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] ***please help announce this list... In a message dated 8/10/1999 10:16:45 AM Central Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << There are few PRR ex-employees on the list, that I know of, and some seem to expect us to take their word for it...without documentation, because they worked there. That has some creedence, but not enough. >> Without creating a blanket condemnation and starting a flame war, of the two ex-PRR employees I talked to in the last few years, one criticized my long distance tender as being inaccurate behind an M1 and the other asked me if the 3678 streamlined K4 ever pulled the Broadway Limited (to his credit, he admitted he did not know). Point being that employees are not the most observant creatures to rely on for history. Rather than picking on ex-PRR employees, I will pick on myself. I worked for several years at transformer plants of Allis-Chalmers and yet never observed the rail operations much and am a lousy reference source for the great rail traffic such a plant generates. I kick myself every day for not railfanning when I had the greatest opportunity to do so. But I was working for a living and supporting a family. PRR employees had that, not railfanning, as their first priority. Thanks for the exceptions, like Bill Volkmer. On the LDSIG list (including OPSIG) we are fortunate to have some real railroaders active who help the contemporary modelers immensely. As far as the two lists are concerned, I look for subjects and read those I am interested in and delete the rest. Always happy to have any source. Bob Zoeller Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roger P. Hensley" Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 17:57:24 +0000 Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT: Feedback Received/Acted Upon > Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 14:25:26 -0400 > Subject: [PRR] TANGENT: Feedback Received/Acted Upon > From: "Jerry Britton" > To: "PRR-Talk LIST" > * Some folks didn't like ads in the footers of posts. They were > removed many months ago. (E-mail signatures don't count!) > > * Some folks didn't like the eBayWatch daily postings. They were > removed after only a week or so. > > * Folks wanted a prefix added to message subjects for easier > sorting in their e-mail software. The "[PRR]" prefix was added > (over a year ago). This is all true and were very good changes in my estimation. Thank you. :-) > Again, if you want moderation, we can give it a try. However, I >reiterate that I think it is very hard to moderate historical >accuracy on a company that has been defunct for 30 years. It isn't just that. To me, it is a matter of someone having to watch or worse yet, screen every post to a list like this. Traffic slows and the timelyness of posts can be lost. Indeed, some posts might be lost completely at the discresion of the moderator. That is a two edged sword. I would suggest that we not do that. :-) Now, I was unsubscribed while attending a wedding in Cleveland last weekend and was off for several days. It sounds like I missed a good fire-fight. Terrible thing! But let's not go over it again. What I missed, I missed. :-) Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com === http://bsuvc.bsu.edu/~00rphensley/cidwelco.html ================ === The Railroads of Madison County, Indiana ======================= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 18:35:40 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] GG-1s and a place to run one. Could it be done? Hi Folks.... Ok...with all of the talk we had recently about voltage changes and running a GG-1 again...I'd thought i'd pass this idea to the group. I was rereading the March 1999 issue of Trains and noticed the article about the West Chester Railroad (pages 84 and 85). They are a tourist road that runs on seven miles of the former PRR West Chester branch that is currently owned by SEPTA. SEPTA only uses the branch as far as Elwyn.(about halfway out). It states that the cantenary is almost completely intact and is de-energized. This line was electrified in 1928 for commuter service. They currently run a Geep painted in Pennsy colors. Ok i'll say this...I don't know what kinda voltage SEPTA uses for this branch or even if there is a local sub-station for it. (Heck i don't know a Amp from a Gigawatt) and I don't know if there is even a G that could be made to run in a short time for this line. Also i have no idea of what kind of weight restrictions there might be (remember GG-1s weigh over 230 tons) either. But although you could'nt do any 80 MPH NEC speeds and even though this line is only 7 Miles long (similar to Strasburg) It might be a place to run a G. You could run a unmodified G there and perhaps (i said perhaps) draw enough folks to ride trains behind the GG-1 with the future goal of setting aside (assuming a profit), funds a rebuild for a G that could be run on the NEC or Harrisburg main. You would of course have to work out something with SEPTA, The WCRR and who ever would have a G to run on it. It just another of my goofy ideas...but its not too far fetched. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JDPanza@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 21:49:13 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re:DN TOWER Does anyone have information as to when DN Tower was built in Verona, PA. It was located on the Allegheny Branch and possibly could date back to the Allegheny Valley Railroad days. A photo in Verona's Centennial album dated "from the early 1900's" indicates DN existed at least that early. Could it have been built in the late 1800's? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Onelist lists and spam, plus a tiny on-topic Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 22:33:35 -0400 ****DANGER - OFF TOPIC POST!!**** (But it's alright 'cause the moderator started it) ;-) Hi All! Just a question about a statement that Jerry (I believe) made about Onelist selling their mailing lists. As a moderator of a large (430+) list on Onelist (The Casting List), I was assured to the Nth degree that under no circumstances would Onelist sell their e-mail addresses or tolerate spam. I personally have never received any unusual volume of spam on the e-mail address that I use for the list (the miracle castings address), although my hotmail address, which I only use for personal correspondence and don't post to any newgroups with, has been getting majorly whacked with spam in the last month or so. Is Onelist really doing this??? If so, I may have to go postal on these guys, as they were downright rabid about any moderator or list member sending unsolicited e-mail to anyone! Has anyone else on this list with a Onelist membership gotten a large volume of spam lately? Pat (off-topic) Lawless And just to pull this back towards on-topic a bit, Jerry, I don't think you should have to moderate this list. People know the rules, and if they step out of line and don't have the courtesy to apologize, they can always be drop-kicked into the middle of next week. I've done it with the casting list, and received total support for doing so. Why should you have to do the extra work to supervise a bunch of adults? There are no guarantees that anything anyone says on this list is bible true. It's all opinion, conjecture, or best-recollection, unless there's hard documentation. But even documentation can lie. I'm currently looking at a plan on my wall, direct from Sikorsky, of the Turbotrain. Factory plans! And it's wrong! The windows are out to lunch; they never made it that way. So the best anyone here can do is state their opinion, and why they have it. Anyone else can either take it at face value, or not. It's that simple. No guarantees or implied warranties of any kind here! Regards, Pat (slightly less off-topic) Lawless ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bud Kaiser" Subject: RE: [PRR] N5A??? was N5 #477297 Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 21:07:20 -0400 One difference between the N5, N5A, and the N5B was the N5B had a steel roof walk and end platforms like the N5C. Ed Martin described these differences in his Mainline Modelers article of a couple of years ago. You can use the Bowser roof walk castings from their N5C to simulate the steel ones of the N5B. You need to splice two sets together for the N5B as the cupola of the N5C is much longer than that of the N5B. I recently completed the conversion according to Ed's article. He also discusses the beefing-up of the Bowser cast-on collision bars Bud Kaiser Cherry Hill NJ Steve wrote: According to The Keystone for December 1973, there were four N5A's built, modified from N5's in 1937. They differed from the N5 by having a Duryea cushion underframe. No other differences were noted. All N5B's were constucted new. No mention is made in the article of collision posts. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] SNAPPERS - A QUESTION (AGAIN) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 21:58:58 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of VVA249@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 4:20 PM To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] SNAPPERS - A QUESTION (AGAIN) Dick, It was a good question at the time and still is. I'm surprised no one attempted an answer. I had always ASSumed that snapper was a slang term applied to all helper operations. However, you may have a good point. I tried to figure out where I could go to get the right answer but frankly came up short. I do have enginemen's time logs from the E&A Division where they list type of service on which used during their tour. It typically states, freight, yard, local and passenger. However I have seen and made notes from one engineman's book where he occasionally entered "snapper" which meant he spent his 8 hour tour pushing. This would certainly go beyond just a yard job pushing someone out of a yard. His destinations on and off duty are the same (Wheatland) but that doesn't prove they just stayed in the yard. Typically the helpers at Wheatland pushed westbound coal and heavy merchandise trains up the Sharpsville/Transfer hill and then came back to Wheatland to do it again. A 1963 PRR system straight line diagram I have lists all helper locations as "Helper Service." A 1941 PRR document I have regarding the construction of two new 80 car relay tracks at Dock Jct. Yard discusses the 80 car ore trains dispatched to the E&P requiring "one puller and two helper engines." Also 1960s PRR tonnage rating charts I have refer to "Helper". Where does all of this lead? I surmise snapper was a slang term - and people have been known to apply terms incorrectly. So I guess it leaves us not to much further ahead. Perhaps someone else will contribute more, factual information. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: [PRR] Request for info: South Fork & Cresson Yard Plans Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 16:47:00 -0400 I am starting to think about my layout plan, which will include "selectively compressed" versions of South Fork (PA) and Cresson yards, and the South Fork Secondary. The goal is to have an operationally-based design. I'm looking for information on how the yards were operated back in the early 60's. Does anyone know where I can find information on the operations; or perhaps someone who used to work there, preferably as a yard master? Any help would be greatly appreciated! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 22:01:43 -0500 From: Richard Wallis Subject: [PRR] Re: A question of color Greetings to the group: Does anyone know when "Tuscan Red" was adopted as the standard passenger car color on the Pennsylvania System? Or, failing that, what is the earliest date of a reference to the use of the color? This is a curiosity question for me; not one of crucial importance, but with possibly interesting ramifications depending on the date. Regards, Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 00:00:28 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] GG-1s and a place to run one. Could it be done? Correct me if I'm wrong - but the West Chester branch was a branch line, therefore it is more than likely that it is limited by degree of curvature more than weight factor. I can't find any reference to a G or any other motor, going to West Chester ( I'll admit to only checking "Under Pennsy Wires" and "When the Steam Railroads Electrified", but can't remember any mention anywhere else either - I remember a picture of an MP54 at the West Chester Station but can't remember where it is). Next would be not only getting the 25 Hz but the insurance for the high voltage transmission lines as well as the folks needed to re - energize everything. Next, your G is going to need - at best oil (dialectic bath stuff) for the PCB contaminated stuff that was removed (maybe a complete remedial job for the removal of all contaminants) - at worst a new transformer. Since they had PCB's in them and where going out of service, more then likely they where removed. Why clean them when you could burn them down to remove the PCB's. I have a picture somewhere of E44 and E33's at Rutherford sans transformers. I, like all the other PRR juice fans, would love to see a GG1 run again and again. The trouble will be the railroad running it. Since all currently energized lines that a GG1 could likely run on is under the jurisdiction of a commuter authority or Amtrak, they would require the locomotive to have 60 Hz capability and insurance, insurance, insurance. Just my thoughts on the full size thing - I do plan to run mine, when I get the layout built - in a year or so... Cos bubbles@visi.net wrote: > Hi Folks.... > > Ok...with all of the talk we had recently about voltage changes and > running a GG-1 again...I'd thought i'd pass this idea to the group. > I was rereading the March 1999 issue of Trains and noticed the article > about the West Chester Railroad (pages 84 and 85). They are a tourist > road that runs on seven miles of the former PRR West Chester branch > that is currently owned by SEPTA. SEPTA only uses the branch > as far as Elwyn.(about halfway out). It states that the cantenary > is almost completely intact and is de-energized. This line was > electrified in 1928 for commuter service. They currently run > a Geep painted in Pennsy colors. > > Ok i'll say this...I don't know what kinda voltage SEPTA uses for this > branch or even if there is a local sub-station for it. > (Heck i don't know a Amp from a Gigawatt) and I don't > know if there is even a G that could be made to run in a short time > for this line. Also i have no idea of what kind of weight > restrictions there might be (remember GG-1s weigh over 230 tons) > either. But although you could'nt do any 80 MPH NEC speeds and > even though this line is only 7 Miles long (similar to Strasburg) > It might be a place to run a G. You could run a unmodified G there > and perhaps (i said perhaps) draw enough folks to ride trains behind > the GG-1 with the future goal of setting aside (assuming a profit), > funds a rebuild for a G that could be run on the NEC or Harrisburg > main. You would of course have to work out something with SEPTA, > The WCRR and who ever would have a G to run on it. > > It just another of my goofy ideas...but its not too far fetched. > > Til Later > Hank Mummert > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Brick depot trim colors From: Fred G Rea Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 00:05:55 EDT I am working on a brick depot of "medium" size and wondering what the correct trim color would be for the late 1950's era. I have in mind something like my vague memories of Canton Ohio on the Ft Wayne. That is, larger than a typical small town depot like Dennison Ohio but much smaller than the biggies (30th St, Pittsburgh etc). The building is being freelanced using DPM panels but I would like to have a reasonable color for the window and door frames. Thanks, Fred Rea ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 00:29:07 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT: Feedback Received/Acted Upon Jerry and all, I must add my support for an un-moderated discussion on this list. From my participation on this and the EBT-List owned and run by Chris Coleman, the best way to ensure a full discussion of issues open to interpretation and/or analysis about RR companies whose time is long past ... and societies dedicated to perserving their memories ... is to encourage open discussion between all subscribers. If things get personal, the list owner can intervene and, if necessay, sanction recalcitrants who refuse to "be civil." I have both experienced this discipline and benefited from such oversite, to my embarassment and edification. I personally received a few back-channels from the person who set up the "other" lists under discussion during the controversy over Mark's supposed waging of culture wars against real live "employes". When I answered that a) I was a friend of Mark's and, b) my interest in PRR signaling did not extend beyond working HO-scale semaphores to man-made neural paths and memorizing interlocking plans, I heard no more. That, as far as I was concerned, was fine. As a hopeful future professor of history, I believe we who claim to be interested in its accuracy where the Pennsy is concerned should applaud and encourage any and all venues for discussion of things Pennsy. Experience shows that oral history is, invariably, falable, especially where the far-flung P-Co is concerned ... Standard Railroad, indeed! I do not see these lists' coexistence as necessarily competitive; that will be up to the respective list owners and their subscribers. The only goal should be (and, in my observation, has been) to seek the historical truth. If one "side" of the other cannot accept the possibility of the opposing argument as eventual truth, the onus is on them. So, good job, Jerry and best wishes to other UNMODERATED PRR-related lists. At the end of the day, it's the "way it really was" that matters, no matter who comes up with it. We won't get there with one or two "soothsayers" calling the shots. Vagel Keller Pittsburgh CMU Dept. of History ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 00:42:00 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: RE: [PRR] N5A??? was N5 #477297 > > Steve wrote: > > According to The Keystone for December 1973, there were four N5A's built, > modified from N5's in 1937. They differed from the N5 by having a Duryea > cushion underframe. No other differences were noted. Did these underframes result in the extended end platforms like on the N5B's or where those only for the collision posts? Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Sean121982@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 00:42:39 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Onelist lists and spam, plus a i moderate the CR-NS modelers list on onelist, and the only spam i get comes from other AOL members. so i highly doubt onelst is selling member names to spammers. sorry about the off-topicness of this post sean mcdonnell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 07:26:33 EDT Subject: [PRR] Frankfort IN on the Panhandle In a message dated 8/10/99 6:52:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cil36@link2000.net writes: << Rick, I have a track chart of the Crawfordsville branch but only shows part of Frankfort. Steve Long >> Steve, My copy of the 1968 track charts shows Frankfort as viewed from the I&F side, as viewed from the Terre Haute side, and again as a chart of local industrial sidings. Each has slightly different detail on the Monon crossing, the crossing of the NKP/LE&W track, and the crossing of the NKP/Clover Leaf district. With their differences, the diagrams further underline the need for a good map and maybe some words and music about everybody's operations in Frankfort. Examples: what were Frankfort's leading industries? Where were the yards? The stations? The engine houses? How many switch jobs worked Frankfort on each railroad? Where was each road dispatched from? And did passenger service once offer decent connections at Frankfort? (Shall I dream on?) As the s.f. fans like to say, "The Truth is Out There Somewhere". Rick Tipton Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: A question of color Date: Wed, 11 Aug 99 06:36:02 -0400 From: Jerry On 8/10/99 11:01 PM, Richard Wallis (rwallis1@earthlink.net) wrote: >Does anyone know when "Tuscan Red" was adopted as the standard passenger >car color on the Pennsylvania System? Or, failing that, what is the >earliest date of a reference to the use of the color? > >This is a curiosity question for me; not one of crucial importance, but >with possibly interesting ramifications depending on the date. Pretty sure this doesn't help you, but the diesels started in Tuscan in 1952. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Onelist lists and spam Date: Wed, 11 Aug 99 06:34:49 -0400 From: Jerry On 8/10/99 10:33 PM, Miracle Castings Inc. (miracle-castings@on.aibn.com) wrote: >Hi All! Just a question about a statement that Jerry (I believe) made about >Onelist selling their mailing lists. As a moderator of a large (430+) list >on Onelist (The Casting List), I was assured to the Nth degree that under no >circumstances would Onelist sell their e-mail addresses or tolerate spam. I >personally have never received any unusual volume of spam on the e-mail >address that I use for the list (the miracle castings address), although my >hotmail address, which I only use for personal correspondence and don't post >to any newgroups with, has been getting majorly whacked with spam in the >last month or so. Is Onelist really doing this??? If so, I may have to go >postal on these guys, as they were downright rabid about any moderator or >list member sending unsolicited e-mail to anyone! Has anyone else on this >list with a Onelist membership gotten a large volume of spam lately? I'll try to locate the article. I don't keep all my back issues, as I receive about two dozen trade magazines. I know it was within the past year. It was in one of the following magazines, if I recall: CIO (Chief Information Officer), CIO Web Business, eMedia Professional, or eBusiness. To clarify, OneList was not cited as allowing SPAM on their system (via their lists), but rather sold their subscriber lists to SPAMmers who mailed them direct. OneList was not alone in doing this. (How do you think they pay their bills of offering free list hosting?) Again, I'll try to find the article. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SugarJ69@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 09:33:09 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] a tiny on-topic"anti-tangent" In a message dated 8/11/99 4:36:14 AM !!!First Boot!!!, miracle-castings@on.aibn.com writes: << It's all opinion, conjecture, or best-recollection, unless there's hard documentation. But even documentation can lie. I'm currently looking at a plan on my wall, direct from Sikorsky, of the Turbotrain. Factory plans! And it's wrong! The windows are out to lunch; they never made it that way. >> This is so true! I work in the electronics field as an engineering technician [an Igor to a Frankenstein]. I am an independent contractor so I've been to several places over the past couple decades. One of my longer contracts was with one of the "Big 3" auto makers and the way things worked was the engineer and draftsman would give me a blueprint for one of their contraptions and tell me to build, test and calibrate it. About every hour or so, I would be calling the designers regarding flaws in their designs. The standard answer was "make it work and write down what you did." By the time a project was completed [working], it was on to the next job and the designers would bury the paperwork and prints and never make the changes on paper to reflect the "real thing." With today's computers one would think this would be a simple thing to do but everyone is in a hurry and things are overlooked. I would think that the Pennsy and other railroads built their equipment in the same manner but because they didn't have such things as AutoCAD, it would sometimes be necessary to redraw entire prints to reflect corrections and upgrades by hand, which is very time consuming and we all know "time is money." So if you see something that doesn't 100% match the drawing, this could be the reason. Another offering would be that when a new drawing is generated, it is given a new "rev" number and a common error is to have the wrong rev print in hand while evaluating a piece of equipment. Regards, SugarJ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 08:24:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] GG-1s and a place to run one. Could it be done? Wayne's post suggests that it might be a problem getting 25 Hz power. Did I miss something? I had never heard that all of the power NY- DC-Harrisburg and branches was ever converted from 25 Hz. Did this happen some dark night? Though I believe the rotary converters are probably gone, replaced by solid state equipment capable of generating 25 Hz. Don't some of the old Silverliners require 25 Hz, or are they gone or capable of 60 Hz? Conn DOT and NJ Transit M+E are different, but of course not ex- PRR so they might as well be different. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AndersonCL@nswccd.navy.mil Subject: RE: [PRR] GG-1s and a place to run one. Could it be done? Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:06:46 -0400 The rotary converters at Schuykill Station of PECO still provide the NEC with 25 Hz power. The former RDG Wayne Junction Complex... those of you that used RDG commuter trains may recall the converter problems of the mid 1970's when CR was new and the EMU's were powered by CR diesels, has solid state converters - the only known application of new technology for an old power distribution system. There is also a "transfer cable" in place between Schuykill and Wayne Junction. In regards to getting a "G" motor back on the road... The problem is not technical, but, cost! The main transformers which contained, now banded PCB's, would have to be manufactured along with other similar appliances. In addition, the engine would have to be completely overhauled with particular attention to its frame. Most electrical work would literally have to be "hand crafted". I can envision millions of dollars going into this exercise... well beyond the capability of most organizations. Chas -----Original Message----- From: bobsin@nac.net [mailto:bobsin@nac.net] Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 8:25 AM To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] GG-1s and a place to run one. Could it be done? Wayne's post suggests that it might be a problem getting 25 Hz power. Did I miss something? I had never heard that all of the power NY- DC-Harrisburg and branches was ever converted from 25 Hz. Did this happen some dark night? Though I believe the rotary converters are probably gone, replaced by solid state equipment capable of generating 25 Hz. Don't some of the old Silverliners require 25 Hz, or are they gone or capable of 60 Hz? Conn DOT and NJ Transit M+E are different, but of course not ex- PRR so they might as well be different. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:36:05 -0400 From: steve Subject: [PRR] H&P branch I'm looking for information on the H&P branch. I am looking mostly for a history and use thru the late 1940's. If anyone can point me in the right direction, that would be great. -steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:48:29 EDT Subject: [PRR] NS on the Panhandle In a message dated 8/10/99 9:58:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Stuthayer writes: << In a message dated 8/10/99 5:26:54 AM Mountain Daylight Time, RickTipton writes: << Will the Panhandle rise again? >> If it does, you are going to have to trade in all those PRR Keystones, NYC Cigarbands, and PC Worms for Thoroughbreds. Just kidding... :-) Stuart >> Stu, They can have those keystones just as soon as they pry them from my cold, still fingers. Good thing you're kidding, pard. OTOH, the local railfans will go wild if NS starts running down the hill through Taylor Station and on west into Columbus. The "shared ROW" (joint B&O and PRR out to Newark OH) will be littered with Kodak -- er, Fuji boxes. And with traffic, the giant cuts of all the Panhandle's tunnel daylighting in Eastern Ohio could again be an attraction. However, let's wait and see what really happens. No matter what NS does, I doubt the PRR will lose its status as the biggest and most complex ghost railroad in Ohio (or Indiana). Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FRANKGARON@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:11:30 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] GG-1s and a place to run one. Could it be done? Been down this road before. Some of you may remember this thread from last year - my esteemed "partner" and I were working on exploring this situation. We even had a letter of intent signed with the Leatherstocking Chapter, NRHS to lease 4932 and 4934 with the idea of restoring 4934 to service. I have tons of correspondence on the feasablity of restoring a G to service. It CAN be done according to the Railroad contacts I have. Just a matter of $$$. However, 2 points to be aware of: 1. West Chester branch has some trestles - not sure if they are rated to hold a G anymore. There is one or 2 big ones east of Media, and one big one between Media and Elwyn. 2. Volunteerism - somebody needs to do the dirty work, and make a long term commitment. After busting my hump for months arrainging the lease deal, looking at storage space, networking with the neccessary RR officials, etc, my Partner/Mechanic suddenly got busy with another project and lost interest overnight, leaving me high & dry. People nowadays are very busy, loose interest quickly, and in general, talk much more than they are willing to work. When someone else SHOWS me they are serious (instead of just talking about it), I will be more than happy to give this project my all. Until then, it's all wishful thinking. Period. Frank Garon Perth Amboy, NJ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] NS on the Panhandle From: Fred G Rea Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:24:53 EDT Much of the now single track has a bike trail adjacent to it in the Newark OH area. I am sure this would make the fans vs NS cops contest a riot! Also, if, as I think, the state of Ohio owns it what are the terms of the OC's contract to operate it? If NS wants something, why not the W&LE? It used to be theirs! It runs Bellevue to Rook yard in Pittsburgh, not just Mingo Jct. Also on down to Connelsville if you are not afraid of incredible high bridges. It would also get the whole Conrail/NS debacle off topic for PRR-Talk. Fred Rea ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] H&P branch Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:04:44 -0400 -----Original Message---- From: steve To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 1:39 PM Subject: [PRR] H&P branch >I'm looking for information on the H&P branch. I am looking mostly for a >history and use thru the late 1940's. > >If anyone can point me in the right direction, that would be great. > >-steve > >Directions: West of Petersburg, east from Hollidaysburg! Just kidding of course. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:58:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: A question of color Passenger cars went Tuscan in the teens if not before. The Pennsylvania Special AKA Pennsylvania Kid was in yellow and green until name was chugged to the Pennsylvania Limited. Best guess is that it coincided with the change to 60 and 70 foot steel cars. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Why The Pennsy Photos Terminated at Pittsburgh Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:15:44 -0400 Could the absense of a comprehensive and accessible highway system may have hindered railfans from metropolitan areas from venturing out in the midwest? Don't get me wrong. Back then, state roads and US routes traversed through the midwest but they were not multi-laned like they are today. Now it is easier to travel to the boondocks than in the '30's, '40's, and '50's. In addition, there are more restuarants and motels in smaller cities now when compared to yesteryear. These factors might explain why photos of the PRR dropped off at Pittsburgh and then picked up again in Englewood. Ted Andrews In the boonies -----Original Message----- From: BPX29@aol.com [mailto:BPX29@aol.com] Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 6:54 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Why The Pennsy Photos Terminated at Pittsburgh Bill & folks, First off, as regards point #h, Philley could be said , by some, to indeed have 2-1/2 railroads: the B&O, Reading Company and PRSL, as well as four subways: Broad Street, Frankford-Market, the Speedline and the BIG RED SUBWAY. But we'll lay the kidding aside, Seeing as how much we all like the Pennsy. I've always wondered about the (relative) scarcity of PRR images west of Pittsburgh, and many of the points mentioned are too universal to explain the delemma. Everybody was stuck with the same film, and places much less or no more scenic than the Midwest have been heavily photod. But it is true that in towns with more photogenic engines, the Pennsy doesn't come out too well. It's no surprise that the older picture-takers ignored F units, at least to us who grew up in the 1950's and early 60's. Steam was too recent, the older guys had the spending power and influence and many of them had a grudge against diesils. In a way I can't blame them, because I can't get into current railroading or even second generation units, not when there's a long-gone world populated by cab units, RS units, Baldwins and Geep 9's. Not to mention lots of passenger trains, mail trains, cabooses, towers and all the human elements that made railfanning so rewarding. But come to think of it, the original posting about Pennsy west of Monroeville never said there were no Pennsy fans west of there. It only made reference to the fact that layout tours were set up for those heading east from the convention, or at least that's my take. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". . ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] NS on the Panhandle Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:38:54 -0400 (EDT) Fred G Rea scribit: > > Much of the now single track has a bike trail adjacent to it in the > Newark OH area. I am sure this would make the fans vs NS cops contest a > riot! Also, if, as I think, the state of Ohio owns it what are the terms > of the OC's contract to operate it? > > If NS wants something, why not the W&LE? It used to be theirs! It runs > Bellevue to Rook yard in Pittsburgh, not just Mingo Jct. Also on down to > Connelsville if you are not afraid of incredible high bridges. It would > also get the whole Conrail/NS debacle off topic for PRR-Talk. Yes, but ... Do you _really_ want to run loads of traffic (potentially) on the W&LE? Seriously? -- Mark P.S. this is _not_ a flame. But in comparision to ex-PRR facilities, W&LE is penny-ante. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Why The Pennsy Photos Terminated at Pittsburgh Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:37:09 -0400 (EDT) Andrews, Ted scribit: > > Could the absense of a comprehensive and accessible highway system may have > hindered railfans from metropolitan areas from venturing out in the midwest? > Don't get me wrong. Back then, state roads and US routes traversed through > the midwest but they were not multi-laned like they are today. Now it is > easier to travel to the boondocks than in the '30's, '40's, and '50's. In > addition, there are more restuarants and motels in smaller cities now when > compared to yesteryear. There are competing questions, actually, to be answered: 1) how many photos _exist_ "out there" for Lines East vs. Lines West? 2) how many photos _have been published_, tend to get chosen, etc., for Lines East vs. Lines West? Of course, what I'm getting at with question #2 (if it wasn't clear already) was the "interest" factor. If you live in Philly (and I'm not picking on anyone in particular), and you have lots of friends in the Philly area, and collectively you all have a large library, and collectively you all have made trips to Penn Sta. NYC and Enola and Conway, and collectively you all have made few to no trips elsewhere, that is good explanation (though not a good reason) for Lines West photos not to get published. It's not just Lines West. How many PRR photos have y'all seen published of ... Port Allegheny and Keating Summit? THis is nearly as exciting a place as Horse Shoe. How 'bout Olean? Buffalo? Rochester? Hagerstown? Martinsburg? Cumberland? Lock Haven? Berwick? DelMarVa? Oil City? Apollo? And noticed I've not even _begun_ to touch Lines West !! -- Mark D. Bej, M.D. bejm@eeg.ccf.org Clinical Associate, Section of Epilepsy & Sleep Disorders Epilepsy Research Fellow, Section of Neurological Computing Department of Neurology Phone (216) 445-2565 Cleveland Clinic Foundation S-51 Operator (216) 444-2200 bpr 24095 9500 Euclid Ave. Fax (216) 445-6617 (public) Cleveland, Ohio 44195 U.S.A. Voice mail (216) 444-0119 (nonclinical only) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:12:13 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] NS on the Panhandle Please keep in mind that under the Federal Rails to Trails legislation, the railroad has the right to take back the right-of-way if they need it. The right-of-way is in effect banked property for which the railroad got a charitable contribution right off on taxes. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 16:08:19 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT: Feedback Received/Acted Upon In a message dated 8/10/99 8:59:39 PM EST, rhensley@anderson.cioe.com writes: << Traffic slows and the timelyness of posts can be lost. Indeed, some posts might be lost completely at the discresion of the moderator. >> Certainly no slowing of the traffic today ! Dick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] NS on the Panhandle Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:58:08 -0400 Gize: I am not familir with the OC operating the Panhandle in eastern Ohio. Does anyone know on this list what the train frequency was before the NS rerouting. What is the current train frequency? Also on a somewhat related topic, does anyone know the current use and train frequecy of the Ft. Wayne line in Indiana? CSX owns it now but NS still has trackage rights on it. I believe there is at least one person on this list that lives in Valparaiso and may be able to shed some insight. Ted Andrews -----Original Message----- From: Fred G Rea [mailto:fredrea@juno.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 12:25 PM To: RickTipton@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Cc: Garrett.Rea@worldnet.att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] NS on the Panhandle Much of the now single track has a bike trail adjacent to it in the Newark OH area. I am sure this would make the fans vs NS cops contest a riot! Also, if, as I think, the state of Ohio owns it what are the terms of the OC's contract to operate it? If NS wants something, why not the W&LE? It used to be theirs! It runs Bellevue to Rook yard in Pittsburgh, not just Mingo Jct. Also on down to Connelsville if you are not afraid of incredible high bridges. It would also get the whole Conrail/NS debacle off topic for PRR-Talk. Fred Rea ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:11:40 -0500 (CDT) From: padraice@megsinet.net Subject: [PRR] Getting a GG1 running Regarding the occasionally broached topic of getting a G running, I've had a thought that runs close to home here in Northern Illinois - admittedly not a very common venue for a G. Illinois Railway Museum has a trolley operation on their about 5 mile main. As is common with most trolley lines, the overhead is 600 volt DC, but I believe it is pantagraph compatible. I base this on their occasional operation of their South Shore Little Joe, which is roughly the same size and weight, if not heavier than a GG1. So the track and wire should be OK. This leaves the internal workings of the G. Like most if not all Gs, this one is without transformer - but that may not be a problem if the AC motors can handle DC. If 600 volt DC is too much, perhaps the motors could be run in series pairs. It would seem that some sort of control arrangement could be set up, perhaps even using the existing control switching. Since the locomotive would not be operated at anywhere the speed or load that it did on the Pennsy main, any shortage of power would be tolerable. Pacific Electric once ran a former Visalia Electric AC set of interurban cars on DC, and South Shore briefly ran some Chicago Lake Shore and South Bend AC cars on DC. Admittedly not the same thing as a G, but it might be something to pursue. Oh yes, and IRM has a GG1. Pat Egan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 16:34:10 EDT Subject: [PRR] Cant't make it to Altoona; PRR .wav files wanted Hi Gize, looks like i won't be able to make it to Altoona. my wife's recovery from surgery is talking longer than anticipated and i am primary caregiver for my sons. in the meantime, I've been helping a local ISP with a local history site just got done with Yellow Springs and Railroads article. i though it'd be nice to have the exhaust sounds and whistle of a K4 just like the one which would disrupt the out door Shakespeare festival every night as it took one section, a sleep, of the Springfield/Dayton/Cincinnati to Chicago 'The Union'" down the Springfield branch through the village passing about 200 feet from the outdoor amphitheater where the play was being performed. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Why The Pennsy Photos Terminated at Pittsburgh Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 16:23:55 -0400 Mark: I think that you brought up some good points as well as questions. For your first question, I believe that in terms of numbers, there are by far more Lines East photos than Lines West photos. The reason lies with the demographics. In the first have the this century, the east coast had the lion's share of the nation's population. It was not until after WWII when people began to disperse into other parts of the county such as the south east and south west. Railfanning tended to be confined in the larger metropolitan areas like Philly, NY, Pittsburgh, etc. Photographers tended to bump in to each other and associate with one another. Photos were shared and a good "pool" of photos emerged; many of them ended up in books and magazines. I think that this answers question #2 that you raised that there are more Lines East photos published than Lines West. You raised a question on why certain areas in the east were not covered ( Olean, Buffalo, Rochester, Hagerstown, Martinsburg, Cumberland, Lock Haven, Berwick, DelMarVa, Oil City, Apollo, etc.) I think that accessibility was a factor here too. In the 1930's the Pennsylvania Turnpike was built linking Pittsburgh to the East Coast. It also opened southern Pa. and PRR mainline accessible to railfans. Northern Pennsylvania and central NY state did not have a multilaned road like the turnpike going through them. This could have hindered railfans in going these areas. But what about areas like Hagerstown? There were areas near populated areas but were overlooked by photograghers. My personal hunch is that railfans back then were going to places that were well known, heavily trafficked, and publizied by train books (train magazines were rare if they did exist at all) I think that smaller railroad communities were missed for the bigger venues. For example, it is 1938. The PRR has just announced its "Fleet of Modernism". Where would a young rail fan want to go, Horseshoe Curve or Sunbury? I think that quantity was put in front of variety. Today, it seems that the opposite is true. In summary, I do not believe that there ever was a Lines East bias. I think that the population demographics in the USA before 1950 was skewed to the east coast and railfanning was centered on major, high trafficked areas. The smaller railroad towns with little traffic were not bothered with in both the east and west. My 3 cents worth Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana -----Original Message----- From: Mark Bej [mailto:bejm@eeg.ccf.org] Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 2:37 PM To: Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com Cc: BPX29@aol.com; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Why The Pennsy Photos Terminated at Pittsburgh Andrews, Ted scribit: > > Could the absense of a comprehensive and accessible highway system may have > hindered railfans from metropolitan areas from venturing out in the midwest? > Don't get me wrong. Back then, state roads and US routes traversed through > the midwest but they were not multi-laned like they are today. Now it is > easier to travel to the boondocks than in the '30's, '40's, and '50's. In > addition, there are more restuarants and motels in smaller cities now when > compared to yesteryear. There are competing questions, actually, to be answered: 1) how many photos _exist_ "out there" for Lines East vs. Lines West? 2) how many photos _have been published_, tend to get chosen, etc., for Lines East vs. Lines West? Of course, what I'm getting at with question #2 (if it wasn't clear already) was the "interest" factor. If you live in Philly (and I'm not picking on anyone in particular), and you have lots of friends in the Philly area, and collectively you all have a large library, and collectively you all have made trips to Penn Sta. NYC and Enola and Conway, and collectively you all have made few to no trips elsewhere, that is good explanation (though not a good reason) for Lines West photos not to get published. It's not just Lines West. How many PRR photos have y'all seen published of ... Port Allegheny and Keating Summit? THis is nearly as exciting a place as Horse Shoe. How 'bout Olean? Buffalo? Rochester? Hagerstown? Martinsburg? Cumberland? Lock Haven? Berwick? DelMarVa? Oil City? Apollo? And noticed I've not even _begun_ to touch Lines West !! -- Mark D. Bej, M.D. bejm@eeg.ccf.org Clinical Associate, Section of Epilepsy & Sleep Disorders Epilepsy Research Fellow, Section of Neurological Computing Department of Neurology Phone (216) 445-2565 Cleveland Clinic Foundation S-51 Operator (216) 444-2200 bpr 24095 9500 Euclid Ave. Fax (216) 445-6617 (public) Cleveland, Ohio 44195 U.S.A. Voice mail (216) 444-0119 (nonclinical only) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:19:26 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] GG-1s and a place to run one. Could it be done? In a message dated 99-08-10 23:23:33 EDT, bubbles@visi.net writes: Also i have no idea of what kind of weight restrictions there might be (remember GG-1s weigh over 230 tons) >> < Some time ago we discussed the PS-1 box by InterMountain that Nixon Enterprises custom painted in "Merchandise Service" silver scheme and it was determined that the PS-1 never wore the scheme in question. Did the X-40b ever wear the "Merchandise Service" silver band scheme? If so, does anyone know if the following are valid numbers for the X-40b, as well as for the X-40b in this scheme? 37042, 37058, 37096 Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 16:46:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] NS on the Panhandle On Wed, 11 Aug 1999 SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > Please keep in mind that under the Federal Rails to Trails legislation, the > railroad has the right to take back the right-of-way if they need it. The > right-of-way is in effect banked property for which the railroad got a > charitable contribution right off on taxes. And I have heard, unconfirmed, that no right of way has yet been unrailbanked; The community outcry effectively makes it gone. (which is a real shame, if true) Another of my PRR-ghost-railfanning trips will likely be over the Panhandle starting with the lifted section in the coming weeks; I'll try to get some pictures. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Fw: [PRR] GG-1s and a place to run one. Could it be done? Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:44:33 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: Bill Volkmer To: bubbles@visi.net Date: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] GG-1s and a place to run one. Could it be done? >I agree, its a goofy idea. You can't begin to imagine what perils that Idea >would impose, even IF the voltage and environmental concerns could be >overcome. You would need a Wilmington Shop type area to maintain them, >i.e. take the carbody shell off in order to change a traction motor. The >bare minimum would be a drop table. Anybody out there anymore who even >knows what a locomotive tire IS? let alone how to machine them (on whose >lathe) and shrink them onto the wheel. > >Where in the world would you buy the drive cups, which the G's ate up like >race horses eat oats! > >The process of rewinding traction motors would be a subject all unto itself. > >Parts like air compressors, power conditioning coils etc. would be >non-existant. We used to be able to rob and cannobalize the be-geezez out >of the units that were set aside. > >But even more importantly, working around electric locomotives and MU cars >takes an inordinate amount of safety training. How to change pantograph >shoes under a live catenary etc. etc.etc. > >I won't even go near the subject of catenary maintenance. > >I'd say the idea is about 3 miles BEYOND goofy. > >That's just my opinion now. Ya'all hear? > >Bill V. >-----Original Message----- >From: bubbles@visi.net >To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com >Date: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 10:19 PM >Subject: [PRR] GG-1s and a place to run one. Could it be done? > > >> >> Hi Folks.... >> >> Ok...with all of the talk we had recently about voltage changes and >> running a GG-1 again...I'd thought i'd pass this idea to the group. >> I was rereading the March 1999 issue of Trains and noticed the article >> about the West Chester Railroad (pages 84 and 85). They are a tourist >> road that runs on seven miles of the former PRR West Chester branch >> that is currently owned by SEPTA. SEPTA only uses the branch >> as far as Elwyn.(about halfway out). It states that the cantenary >> is almost completely intact and is de-energized. This line was >> electrified in 1928 for commuter service. They currently run >> a Geep painted in Pennsy colors. >> >> Ok i'll say this...I don't know what kinda voltage SEPTA uses for this >> branch or even if there is a local sub-station for it. >> (Heck i don't know a Amp from a Gigawatt) and I don't >> know if there is even a G that could be made to run in a short time >> for this line. Also i have no idea of what kind of weight >> restrictions there might be (remember GG-1s weigh over 230 tons) >> either. But although you could'nt do any 80 MPH NEC speeds and >> even though this line is only 7 Miles long (similar to Strasburg) >> It might be a place to run a G. You could run a unmodified G there >> and perhaps (i said perhaps) draw enough folks to ride trains behind >> the GG-1 with the future goal of setting aside (assuming a profit), >> funds a rebuild for a G that could be run on the NEC or Harrisburg >> main. You would of course have to work out something with SEPTA, >> The WCRR and who ever would have a G to run on it. >> >> It just another of my goofy ideas...but its not too far fetched. >> >> >> Til Later >> Hank Mummert >> >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >> >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 17:13:04 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Trucks for Bowser H-21 with clam shell hoppers Hello list, I purchased one of the new Bowser H-21 hoppers with the clamshell hoppers in the circle keystone scheme. I replaced the arch bar trucks with Bowser's Crown trucks. Since the H21 articles I have from Railmodel Journal and Model Railroading are packed away in storage, I was wondering, is this combination correct for 1948-52? I was so sure the arch bars would be wrong for this time frame that I ordered the Crown trucks and installed them without thinking. My H-21 has the circle keystone lettering. Also, did any H21s with the original PRR lettering (ie without circle keystone) survive to 1948-52; I'm looking for an excuse to add one of these to my layout, even in a heavily weathered condition. I do realize that if I could've put this question off until September, John Teichmoller's new book would probably answer my questions. Thanks in advance, Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:27:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT: Feedback Received/Acted Upon In a message dated 99-08-11 01:13:06 EDT, vck@andrew.cmu.edu writes: << I must add my support for an un-moderated discussion on this list. >> Jerry and all--- This list is the most informative, well-mannered and just-plain-fun of all the railfan lists I'm on. It's fine just the way it is. The so-called "flame wars" here are very infrequent, and quite mild compared to what happens elsewhere! I fully agree with Andrew's comments about everything being slowed down on a moderated list. Don't change anything. Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:13:54 -0500 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] a running GG-1? >Illinois Railway Museum has a trolley operation on their about 5 mile >main. As >is common with most trolley lines, the overhead is 600 volt DC, but I believe >it is pantagraph compatible. > >This leaves the internal workings of the G. - but that may not be a problem if >the AC motors can handle DC. ===== This is probably the most practical solution, as there are already some trolley wires up in various places and more can be put up fairly easily. With a 600 volt wire, all you need is a set of standard diesel throttle controls which can be found just about anywhere. Of course- one could eliminate the problem all together by building an EMD 567 into a baggage car and MUing it to the G. That would really open up the possibilities- we may even see GG-1s operating on Lines West! How do you suppose a GG-1 would have performed on the Fort Wayne District? :-}> Bob (can't resist a straight line) Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com history - technology - modeling - sources Classified Ads - Bubba's Web Resources - and Psycho too! ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 19:27:54 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Re:GG-1 and etc. Hello guys... Thank you for all the posts on the G question...... I realize it would take a lot of money to put one back into operation and you would have to have the support there to run one. My question really was if the West Chester branch could be a place to run one if one were in shape to run and everything else was in place to be able to run it. I did wonder though if there was one G that was retired more or less intact. One that would'nt need much in the way of work. As for a place to repair one...barring the removal of the car body... I do recall that Strasburg once did repairs on one back in PC days for one that went lame out on the main line. Strasburg was nearby and it had been decided to tow it there for repairs. I think it had something to do with its wheel bearings. Strasburg also has a drop pit and wheel lathe. They did the wheel work for UP 4-8-4 No. 844. There might not be parts made for the GG-1 anymore but... concider this. I work for a large shipyard. There are many parts on ships that are similar to railway equipment. I have seen all kinds of engineroom parts that are similar if not the same as railway parts. One that comes to mind was a Worthington feed water heater that i saw a couple of years ago on a ship that was only a few years old. EMD made a marine version of the 567 engine so did FM(and they still do)and also Alco. Some of the engine and related control parts are interchangeable between railway and marine applications. Also ships use all kinds of motors ,pumps and transformers (although most run off of 440-480 volts) and related electrical control equipment. There are many tug boats around (including some former PRR tugs) that are out there over 40-50 years old. Thanks again.... Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 19:04:47 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR and Huntingdon and Broadtop Mountain Railroad and Coal The Huntingdon and Broadtop Mountain Railroad and Coal Company is a 44 mile short line that junctions with the Middle Division at Huntingdon at 97.2 miles from Harrisburg. As a matter of fact the Junction is right across the main line from "Hunt Tower." I recently acquired an Employees Time Table for 1942 and it is very interesting in that it is a combination of a timetable and a list of stations and sidings similar to the PRR CT1000. They operated 4 mixed trains daily (except Sunday) plus 4 trains on Sunday. The amount of traffic generated by this short line probably accounts somewhat for the large PRR yard at Huntingdon. Freight traffic was generated by 3 coal wharfs, 30 collieries, several public tracks and freight stations, 3 refineries and 17 miscellaneous industries. Passenger traffic was generated by 16 stations. I am seeking additional information on this interesting Short Line. Harold Modeling the Middle Division in 1916 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 19:03:25 EDT Subject: [PRR] Trucks for Bowser H-21 with clam shell hoppers Sorry to have to tell you this - most, if not all, of the Clam shell doors were gone by WW 2 - some may have made it to the "Circle K" paint scheme and some of those may have operated "over" the Crown trucks, Since Hopper cars were generally re-built every 10-15 years and since the "Clamshell" doors were for the originally projected lighter duty "Coke" service, I doubt VERY seriously any H-21's made it to the post war period with the original Hopper doors. I suggest that you weather your cars very heavily and put them with your MOW train Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:11:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X-40b & "Merchandise Service" The X40B was painted in both the MS-1 and MS-3 schemes. The MS-1 was applied to 100 X40B. 37007 photo is published in the Keystone Vol 19 #2 p 4 There is also an X40b whose number you can't read on the rear cover of Keystone Vol.21 No.2 Upon further investigation, it appears that all X40B received the MS-1 scheme. There only were 100 cars in the class and 100 were painted with this scheme. So actually the only correct scheme for the X40B prior to 1954 is MS-1. IN '54 they were painted in the MS-3 scheme. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] X-40b & "Merchandise Service" Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 17:30:46 -0700 Jerry and all I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the only cars to recieve the "Merchandise Service" lettering were the various X-29's. Maybe one of the better informed listers could comment on this. Bill Daniels ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 20:39:27 EDT Subject: [PRR] SNAPPERS - A QUESTION (AGAIN) - In a message dated 8/10/99 8:59:45 PM EST, abbuchan@familyconnect.net writes: << However I have seen and made notes from one Engineman's book where he occasionally entered "snapper" which meant he spent his 8 hour tour pushing. This would certainly go beyond just a yard job pushing someone out of a yard. His destinations on and off duty are the same (Wheatland) but that doesn't prove they just stayed in the yard. Typically the helpers at Wheatland pushed westbound coal and heavy merchandise trains up the Sharpsville/Transfer hill and then came back to Wheatland to do it again. >>> UNFORTUNATELY it would be unable to prove my argument from time books - unless you found one where the guy got paid for yard duty and made a note that he provided a "Snapper" that he didn't get paid for - A friend who is a retired Erie trainmaster recalls ordering out yard engines - both steam and diesel - to help stalled trains and the crews replied "get someone down here to sign my time book before I leave the yard" I knew several retired Pennsy men, including my Grandfather and a guy who was "Management" Sadly all are gone. My Grandfather who was "Union" all the way was convinced that lead and trailing trucks on Steamers were just a way to "screw" the working man - Since PRR enginemen got paid by "weight on drivers" - He never would buy any "mechanical" arguments ! My friend who was management, spent much time going from Pittsburgh to Altoona with "light" locomotives where he and a "Brotherhood" representative would witness the re weighing of any locomotive or class that had been modified. He indicated that the PRR resistance to mechanical stokers was as much for the weight as any other factor - the Company would have had to pay crews MORE for less work. On stokerless engines, Firemen got extra pay if they had to handle "wet" coal twice - That is shoveling it down from the pile before feeding it to the furnace. One of my friend's first management assignments was to go out with a camera to towers or bridges near Pittsburgh when these "double handling" claims went up A few photos of firemen shoveling coal BACKWARDS to the pile usually put an end to the claims No wonder why PRR "old timers" were leary of a man with a camera ! <<<< Where does all of this lead? I surmise snapper was a slang term - and people have been known to apply terms incorrectly. So I guess it leaves us not to much further ahead. Perhaps someone else will contribute more, factual information. >>>> yes, I think that this is probably the case I got the impression that I stated in my question, from "The Snapper" a "helper service" of the PRR T&HS - in an early issue where they defined the term as "getting you out of the yards" but I couldn't find that paragraph today if my soul depended on it - and perhaps the true answer is, as you suggest - a slang term that varied in meaning from time to time and place to place - Dick Ross Al >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Duane C. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR and Huntingdon and Broadtop Mountain Railroad and Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 20:36:28 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BEE439.306BEA00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You would be interested in the books From Coal to Glory, Volume 1 and 2 by Jon D. Baughman, and Ronald L. Morgan. They cover the Huntingdon & Broad Top from 1852 to 1900. They were published in 1988 and 1992. I don't know if they are planning to bring out a volume covering the years after 1900. The address listed in the books is PO Box 188, Saxton, PA 16678. Duane Miller ---------- > From: Hal6963@aol.com > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] PRR and Huntingdon and Broadtop Mountain Railroad and CoalCompany > Date: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 7:04 PM > > The Huntingdon and Broadtop Mountain Railroad and Coal Company is a 44 mile > short line that junctions with the Middle Division at Huntingdon at 97.2 > miles from Harrisburg. As a matter of fact the Junction is right across the > main line from "Hunt Tower." > > I am seeking additional information on this interesting Short Line. > > Harold > Modeling the Middle Division in 1916 > > ------=_NextPart_000_01BEE439.306BEA00 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

You would be interested in the books = >From Coal to Glory, Volume 1 and 2 by Jon D. Baughman, and Ronald L. = Morgan.  They cover the Huntingdon & Broad Top from 1852 to = 1900.  They were published in 1988 and 1992.  I don't know if = they are planning to bring out a volume covering the years after 1900. =  The address listed in the books is PO Box 188, Saxton, PA =  16678.

Duane Miller

----------
> From: Hal6963@aol.com
> = To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
> Subject: [PRR] PRR and Huntingdon and = Broadtop Mountain Railroad and CoalCompany
> Date: Wednesday, = August 11, 1999 7:04 PM
>
> The Huntingdon and Broadtop = Mountain Railroad and Coal Company is a 44 mile
> short line that = junctions with the Middle Division at Huntingdon at 97.2
> miles = from Harrisburg. As a matter of fact the Junction is right across the =
> main line from "Hunt Tower."
>
> I am = seeking additional information on this interesting Short Line.
> =
> Harold
> Modeling the Middle Division in 1916
> =
>

------=_NextPart_000_01BEE439.306BEA00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "George N Pierson" Subject: [PRR] H&BT Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 19:45:10 -0500 Hi, all, The Huntiongdon & Broad Top is quite a fascinating line and received much less attention than it deserves. The most extensive material published so far on the H&BT are two volumes of a projected 4-vol set authored by Jon Baughman and Ron Morgan, both of Huntingdon County. While the books in my judgement are not as good as we have come to expect from railroad history, they do cover much of the early years of the line and have many wonderful photos. The H&BT is an OLD line -- pre-Civil War. And it died about the same time as the EBT did and for the same reasons. Over the years its engine roster included many former PRR engines. The wooden shelter across the tracks from the PRR Huntingdon station is, I believe, the H&BT station. At any rate, that is where the H&BT trains would be parked for their connection with the PRR. Another contributor to this list, Vagel Keller, is involved in researching the small iron furnaces that were also important in this region into this century and I hope will add more to this thread. The books are vols. 1 and 2 of FROM COAL TO GLORY: THE HISTORY OF THE HUNTINGDON & BROAD TOP MOUNTAIN RAILROAD & COAL CO. The last address I have for the authors is: PO Box 188, Saxton, PA 16678-0188 George N. Pierson e-mail: george.pierson@trnty.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Trucks for Bowser H-21 with clam shell hoppers Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 17:33:38 -0700 Doug and all, Since the comment about the clamshell doors has already been addressed, I will restrict my comments to the trucks. Basically, archbar trucks were outlawed for interchange service in 1936. After that time, these cars would have other trucks. Bill Daniels - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FRANKGARON@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 20:23:29 EDT Subject: Re: Fw: [PRR] GG-1s and a place to run one. Could it be done? Hi Bill: Appreciate your candor. However, when we did our research, we did speak to a good batch of former PRR men, men who worked at Wilmington Shops, Ivy City, former Road Foremen of Engineers, on and on. They all worked on the G's every day, and were well aware of their problems. I know you have a strong railroad background (love your PRR photos, BTW!), and I respect your opinion, but we had a majority of qualified, experienced people that said it could be done. Had people that could have gotten George Warrington's ear. Friends in the right places with NJ Transit, Friends in DC, etc etc. There is NO ONE problem that is insurmountable in restoring a GG1 to service, AFAIK. It simply is a matter of $$$, a shop with an overhead crane (Juniata Terminal, anyone?) and just as important, political connections. Restoring a G to service would by neccesity result in compromises/modifications/etc, but it can be done. Bold, yes. Goofy, No. Respectfully submitted, Frank Garon Still holding out hope... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 22:03:33 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: NS on the Panhandle In a message dated 8/11/99 9:48:29 AM Mountain Daylight Time, RickTipton writes: << No matter what NS does, I doubt the PRR will lose its status as the biggest and most complex ghost railroad in Ohio (or Indiana). >> No doubt. Stuart ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:02:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] NS on the Panhandle Derrick: A few suggestions for your Panhandle trip. The tracks are in to just beyond Polar Water's plant in Carnegie. They end in the wooded area to the west on the otherside of Noblestown Road. Some tracks remain hit and miss along the way to Burgettstown. Most of the bridges are still in place. There are a few interesting ones well over grown which look to have been built for far more weight than the rails. Short 8-10' spans of 3-4' reinforced concrete. Last time I was in Burgettstown there was still a considerable amount of track and PRR buildings scattered around. Good hunting Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:09:25 -0500 From: "jack witmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] GG-1s and a place to run one. Could it be done? Having gone to school in West Chester when it was WCSTC, I rode the line a number of times when the commuter train consisted of regular coaches with a modified P5a on the point. Sorry I can't tell you the coaches' class. The P5s had a heavier axle load and longer wheelbase than the GG1s. For the modified P5a, it was 76,333 lbs per axle. (Another source says 77,800.) For the GG1, it was 50,500 lbs. (The other source says 50,000.) The drivers of the P5 class had a wheelbase of 20 feet, while the GG1s had two sets of drivers, each with a wheelbase of 13 feet 8 inches. Captain Jack, who saw the first electrically powered train to enter Harrisburg. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] X-40b & "Merchandise Service" Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 22:30:30 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bill Daniels Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 8:31 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] X-40b & "Merchandise Service" See PRR Color Guide I page 82 for X41B - MS scheme, also PRR CG II page 44. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] N5A??? was N5 #477297 Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 22:36:23 -0500 Vagel wrote: > >Did these underframes result in the extended end platforms like on the N5B's >or where those only for the collision posts? > I don't know. The Keystone article had no photos or drawings of N5A's. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Th Panhandle in Eastern Ohio From: Fred G Rea Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 23:47:13 EDT After responding to several people one on one re the NS buying the OC, decided to send this to the List. Someone asked what current OC operations were and I hope I can reply to that question. If I goof I would love to be corrected by some one who knows the actual history or current situation. Any OC employees on the list? The Panhandle has long been a favorite RR of mine. It was the nearest main line RR to my boyhood home in New Philadelphia Ohio. I saw it and rode it many times in the 1940's and 50's. >From 1978 to 1995 I lived north of Pataskala OH which is on the C&N joint (PRR+B&O) line between Newark and Columbus. It was then owned by CSX. From then until we moved in 1995 I heard and watched the traffic as the following occurred: 1979: The demise of the AMTRAK National Limited (30-31, the old Spirit of St Louis). Early 1980's: Welded rail installed on both tracks by CSX. About 24 Panhandle trains a day. Mid 1980's: A few (1 or 2) years later Conrail diverted almost all the Columbus-Pittsburgh traffic to the NYC(Big Four) line to Crestline and onto the Ft Wayne. About the same time Gould Tunnel filled with water. Traffic plummeted to about 2 locals a day. At about the same time CSX abandoned its line from East of Cambridge to Wheeling. One track was pulled on both the joint line and the old PRR line on East. The net result was CSX traffic also dropped to about 2 locals a day. Signals also went dark. This left no through RR route East from Columbus. All this about 1985. In the late 1980's NS put is old W&LE line from Brewster to Zanesville up for sale. This crosses the Panhandle just East of Coschocton at Morgan Run. A man named Jerry Jacobson from Youngstown bought the Zanesville line and began to operate it as the Ohio Central. He already had been operating the Zanesville to New Lexington portion of the PRR Zanesville branch as the Ohio Southern. The OS also ran a NYC branch to Glass Rock. The new OC ran a daily train from Zanesville to Brewster carrying coiled steel, an occasional way freight for local industries, and most note worthy, a daily tourist train from Sugarcreek to Baltic (about 4 miles) using a sharp little 4-6-0. PRR fans bare with me, I'll get back to the PRR soon. Also in the 1980's the NS spun off the old W&LE and P&WV lines to form the new W&LE. I had heard rumors that Conrail wanted to get rid of the Panhandle as early as a BS session with a Town tower operator in 1975. It began to sound serious in the press in, I would guess, the early 1990's. The bottom line is that the State of Ohio bought the Panhandle and the joint line and created the Columbus and Ohio River RR. They then contracted with OC to operate it. The initial OC operation on the Panhandle was the Coshocton-Buckeye Turn, CBT. A daily round trip of mostly chemical tank cars. In 1992 my son and I drove to Pittsburgh checking out both the Panhandle and the W&LE. Those two run parallel near the towns of Bowerston, Scio and Jewett. At that time the W&LE track was well maintained and had shiny rail. The Panhandle was un maintained and very rusty. Folks (non-fans) at the Dennison depot said trains through there were very rare. While walking the W&LE line south from Pittsburgh Junction we noticed the Cadiz branch above the Rexford tunnel. We later checked it out from the car and found sizeable trees growing between the ties. In 1995 we moved to Columbus where I could no longer easily monitor the traffic. I would, however, see CBT switching the interchange with the NS or waiting for clearance onto Conrail through downtown and on to Buckeye Yard. Over the years it seemed to grow nicely, implying some one was doing some successful marketing. About the same time our NMRA group was given a tour of the brand new beautiful OC shops at Morgan Run. Behind the shops was an impressive collection of steam locomotives, many appearing to be very operable. Now it is my understanding that the Gould tunnel has been fixed and operations go through to Mingo Jct on the Ohio River. The W&LE line from Bowerston to Jewett has been abandoned and the W&LE has trackage rights on the OC. Also I hear that the OC won a contract to haul coal from near Cadiz to the big power plant at Conesville. At least the horrendous parade of coal trucks is off the state highways in the area. I would assume those trees are also gone from the Cadiz branch. The OS has given up operation to Glass Rock this year and there has been no traffic to New Lexington in many years. The old PRR bridge to South Zanesville is no longer used and the diamond over the B&O in front of the depot is gone. I do not know current traffic densities buy I do know that the OC organization resurrected the Panhandle and turned it into what appears to be a going RR. I would hate to see it purchased, used, abused and abandoned by NS! The sharp looking OC units are not Tuscan but they are a nice shade of red. Their heavyweight coaches aren't P-70s but they too look sharp. They no longer operate regularly out of Sugarcreek, but read on. If you want to see any of this up close, there is an excursion from Columbus to Morgan Run behind a 4-8-4 on Oct 17. Contact the Dennison depot for more info.Yes, heavy steam on the Panhandle! They can be reached by E-mail at depot@tusco.net or on the web at www.dennisondepot.org Fred Rea ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 00:22:04 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: A question of color In a message dated 8/11/1999 2:10:23 PM Central Daylight Time, SUVCWORR@aol.com writes: << Best guess is that it coincided with the change to 60 and 70 foot steel cars. >> If I am allowed to make a guess (educated) , I agree with you, Rich ! Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 00:09:12 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] a tiny on-topic"anti-tangent" In a message dated 8/11/1999 10:58:15 AM Central Daylight Time, SugarJ69@aol.com writes: << The standard answer was "make it work and write down what you did." By the time a project was completed [working], it was on to the next job and the designers would bury the paperwork and prints and never make the changes on paper to reflect the "real thing." >> Alternatively, as I have experienced in both the transformer and the relay business, the shop ignored the new drawing revision and continued to build as they always had. Effect is the same: drawing and product don't match. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 23:48:15 EDT Subject: [PRR] No list war..minor skirmish only Pennsy folks, I don't see any war brewing up, just minor contact with light casualties. I was a bit startled to see the reaction over at prr-talk, but I think that's blown over already. And there's no reason for it anyway...there's plenty of Pennsy lore, data and history to go around. Personally, I enjoy both lists, but in different ways, and intend to remain on both . But there's an interesting contrast to ponder. For some reason, which I would be hard put to define, the folks on prr-talk remind me of the people I went to college with, while the guys on PRR-FAX bring to mind the guys I used to work with on the railroad. I don't think it's really possible to get these vibes over the internet, but it sure feels like it. Makes me think back to friday nights in the section house when the foreman was done with the timekeeping and had logged us off duty and then he'd break out the cards and a pint and we'd shoot the bull an hour or two, four or five of us.Or when I'd be standing at a dutch door catching the breeze across Indiana on the eastbound General and the conductor would want to shoo me off till he saw the employee tt in my back pocket. A few minutes later he'd be sittin' with me in the lounge cushions talking railroading. No schoolorship here, but plenty of what real railroading was to me. There's a tendency to discount experience-the sights and sounds and smells of real life railroading- when compared to what's to be found in books, but I don't entirely buy that. After all, I served as a rifleman in Viet Nam and considered myself much better informed on the subject than any deskbound professor, but then our perspectives were somewhat different. But anyway, there's plenty of Pennsy to go around. Maybe this can all come together at the convention and we'll all end up better off. Best regards, gentlemen. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWSNRHS@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 23:50:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Portage RR I totally agree with the prior comments of Fred Rea and Vagel Keller. The Allegheny Portage RR National Historic Site at Gallitzin is a superb preservation effort by the National Park Service. The remaining artifacts, reconstructions, replicas and video programs tell a powerful story of the short but vital operations to cross the Allegheny Ridge prior to the PRR. And, since the PRR essentially put this statewide transportation system out of business, it is a story that needs to be part of the complete understanding of the 'how-and-why' of the PRR. When you attend the PRRT&HS Convention, Gallitzin and the Tunnels will no doubt be on your "must" list. Don't short-change yourself by not visiting the Allegheny Portage RR site. When you exit U.S.22 at the Gallitzin interchange from either direction, you will come to a stop sign. Turn right into the APRR entrance drive. David Seidel Altoona, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 00:41:51 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X-40b & "Merchandise Service" In a message dated 8/11/1999 4:16:21 PM Central Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << Did the X-40b ever wear the "Merchandise Service" silver band scheme? If so, does anyone know if the following are valid numbers for the X-40b, as well as for the X-40b in this scheme? 37042, 37058, 37096 >> The 100 X40b's WERE the original Merchandise Service cars. Designed for that purpose, to the best of my knowledge. 300 50-footers and numerous X29s were added. X40b's were numbered 36997 to 37096 per January 1953 ORER, so your numbers match. They were delivered in full silver-band regalia. I beg Sunshine and Westerfield to bring out this car (along with the X23 and K7) everytime I visit their booths! BTW, the previous decorated brass versions of this car made the common mistake of using tuscan red, not freight car color, for the base color. Bob Zoeller Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 00:15:42 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Trucks for Bowser H-21 with clam shell hoppers I would suggest someone check with Al Westerfield. He has the documentation and photographs for all cars he makes. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 00:11:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:DN TOWER I have a Time table effective November 25, 1900 which shows a tower at Verona with the Telegraph sign of "QN" but no "DN." QN was located at the point where the Plum Creek branch left the AV line. It would seem that DN was constructed sometime after November 1900. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 23:10:33 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X-40b & "Merchandise Service" In a message dated 8/11/99 10:17:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, billd@gci-net.com writes: << I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the only cars to receive the "Merchandise Service" lettering were the various X-29's. Maybe one of the better informed listers could comment on this. >> Well Bill, you are wrong. Champ Decal makes a set that covers 40,' 50' & 60' MS boxes. My question for a long time was what the correct design. It's the x40 b with single 7' Youngstown doors and a 4-4 dreadnought end. Intermountain makes the doors in plastic, Gloor Craft the end in white metal. A PRR roster I down loaded from keystone crossings states the 100 X-40Bs were numbed 36997-27096 sequentially. so Jerry, all three numbers are correct. I have no information about retirement dates. The X40 is a unique auto box in that it lacks end doors and its double 9' Youngstown 4-4 doors are set square, not staggered as most autoboxes. there's stories the x40 in the may 1956 model railroader and a much better one on a kitbash but with drawings of the X40 and X40B. in the June 1970 model railroader. Only six X40s were built. I believe that four were rebuilt as x40as, and with lading equipment for auto parts service and with single 8' Youngstown's doors but I can't find my June 1970 so can't validate my memory. I'll keep looking. Scratchbuilders, in hO intermountain makes the 7' and 9' foot door and Gloor craft make the correct dreadnought end TOM V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 03:02:00 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] NS on the Panhandle In a message dated 8/11/99 1:36:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, fredrea@juno.com writes: << Much of the now single track has a bike trail adjacent to it in the Newark, OH area. I am sure this would make the fans vs NS cops contest a riot! Also, if, as I think, the state of Ohio owns it what are the terms of the OC's contract to operate it? >> Fred, Given the inherent dangers of having a popularly used recreation resource, if our experience with bike paths in Greene County is typical, then it might be best to move the path. West of the Big 4 diamonds by the Panhandle depot in London, Ohio, the old Columbus & Xenia RR mainline has one track on its right of way on it for local that doesn't make it to the edge of town. from London to Clement (the grade separated crossing of the B&O's Wellston subdivision's East Dayton Bypass visible from US 35) is bike trail, owned by county park departments in Greene and Montgomery counties and owned by the three Dayton Power & Light Co. who installed a transmission line on the right of way between Xenia & London where the paved bike path insures all weather access to the line for servicing. Now what was going around Springfield right after the CR partition was announced was that NS was considering double tracking the entire Conrail Southern Region Middle Division mainline west of the old Big 4 diamonds in London. Given that the old Big 4 line crosses Main Street just west of the depot and disappears between two buildings barely wide enough for the cars, any double tracking of this lin.e would require use of the C&X right of way through London and the construction of a mile or new track to connection with the Big 4 west of town. Haven't heard anything more about this. Tom V.. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 07:26:46 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Frankfort & Other stuff In a message dated 8/10/99 12:10:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rwallis1@earthlink.net writes: << But may I request this "Logansport Chronicles" thing you mentioned earlier? I have tramped around L-port enough to be curious.>> Sure - I'm working on it. One of the documents I want to send is missing, so I'll be digging in my backups for it. << And here's one further question (as long as were at it): On one of my visits I managed to get a look at the old PRR shops from the east side and noticed the old brick or stone buildings along one edge of the property. Are these rather ancient-looking structures remnants of the original Chicago & Great Eastern shops of 1867? >> I wish I knew. From my visit, they certainly look as if they could be that old -- I think that kind of architecture disappeared well before the 1880's. Was the C&GE a Panhandle predecessor? Rick T. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 08:04:07 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: NS on the Panhandle In a message dated 8/11/99 8:23:54 PM Mountain Daylight Time, jerrya@aye.net writes: << I noticed that you said GHOST railroad.........Jerry A. >> The Ghost railroad reference is Rick's. I was simply aggreeing. Stuart ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 07:46:10 -0500 From: tracker Subject: Re: [PRR] Why The Pennsy Photos Terminated at Pittsburgh Mark Bej wrote: > > Andrews, Ted scribit: > > > > Could the absense of a comprehensive and accessible highway system may have > > hindered railfans from metropolitan areas from venturing out in the midwest? > > Don't get me wrong. Back then, state roads and US routes traversed through > > the midwest but they were not multi-laned like they are today. Now it is > > easier to travel to the boondocks than in the '30's, '40's, and '50's. In > > addition, there are more restuarants and motels in smaller cities now when > > compared to yesteryear. First, let me say I had the good fortune to live in both Akron, Ohio and various cities in the south during the 40's-50's. The argument that the U.S. outside of the northeast was somehow not as developed is provincilism of the worst kind. Until the advent of the interstate system, most areas in the NE had no better roads than anywhere else in the US. Except for the turnpikes throught the east, the US highways were just as wide and just as difficult to navigate in say Ohio and Pennsylvania as they were in the south and southwest. A drive in any direction in east Texas will to this day show evidence of hundreds of motor courts built in the 30's and 40's. You are confusing population density with accessibility. there have always been a great deal more railfans in the NE than out this way. There still are. When I lived in Ohio, you could venture out almost any weekend and meet others chasing trains. When I moved to the South, only in major cities would you occasionally see another out pursuing the hobby. Yes there was more mile for mile along the NE higways but there was also a great deal more people living there. The argument that there was nothing but dirt roads or at best narrow concrete higways with nothing for miles and miles and that kept anyone from venturing out shws a complete lack of, or at least a very skewed perspective of the US at that time. No the reason there was more coverage of railroads in the NE was soley based on 1. a larger number of railfans, and 2. a greater density of railroads to cover. Jud Powell Texarkana, Texas ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 08:58:18 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] Request for info: South Fork & Cresson Yard Plans Greetings to Terry and the group, I seem to remember that _Rails Northeast_ had an article about the Cresson Division with a plan of the yard. I won't be able to get back to you and the group until Monday with the issue date. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ At 04:47 PM 8/10/99 -0400, W. Terry Stuart wrote: >I am starting to think about my layout plan, which will include >"selectively compressed" versions of South Fork (PA) and Cresson yards, and >the South Fork Secondary. > >The goal is to have an operationally-based design. I'm looking for >information on how the yards were operated back in the early 60's. > >Does anyone know where I can find information on the operations; >or perhaps someone who used to work there, preferably as a yard master? > >Any help would be greatly appreciated! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:54:19 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: [PRR] Sleeping cars in thru service The PRR was famous for painting its equipment to match "foreign" trains with which it connected. I think we all know the long list. However, many other RRS refused to to that. In a thread on the passenger cars list, I was recently told that the B&O Washington sleeper on the Texas Special was dropped after 1949 because the Frisco/MKT did not want the off-color car in its pretty train. The PRR, of course, painted some old 10-5s for the service and shadowlined them. My question is, why was the PRR so accommodating when other RRs treated the consistency of their consists as sacred? I have a guess. The appearance of "foreign" cars in PRR trains was an advertisement of the fact that you could get anywhere in the country on the PRR. Their marketing department may have seen this as more important than the appearance of a consistent look to the train. -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Frankfort & Other stuff Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:42:04 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of RickTipton@aol.com Sent: Thursday, August 12, 1999 7:27 AM To: rwallis1@earthlink.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Re: Frankfort & Other stuff Rick, et. al. Rick asked> Was the C&GE a Panhandle predecessor? In 1865 the Chicago and Great Eastern Railway Company (No. 4) constructed the 64.86 mile line from LaCrosse, IN to 12th St. Chicago, IL. It subsequently became part of the PCC&StL RR Co. Source-C&C Vol III, page 358 Chronological Statement. More info on C&GE on page 493 which I do not have. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:GG-1 and etc. Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:45:18 -0400 Nice try. I realize that the steam loco crowd has plenty of experience in making parts from "scratch" (i.e. foundry molds, castings, welded fabrications etc. etc. and so on.) However, I believe that when you get into things electrical, and electro-mechanical and rubber drive cups you are really getting into some pretty pricy waters. Towing a G from West Chester to Strasburg would be quite a hike (times two) per trip. Also consider this. Lots of people will turn out to see a live steam locomotive because they don't particularly care which railroad it came from......They just want to see smoke coming out of a stack. That pretty much justifies the high cost of maintaining an operating steam locomotive. On the other hand, as nice as a GG-1 is or was, its pretty ho-hum to anybody west of Harrisburg and south of Alexandria, wouldn't you agree? Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: bubbles@visi.net To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 8:38 PM Subject: [PRR] Re:GG-1 and etc. > > Hello guys... > > Thank you for all the posts on the G question...... > > I realize it would take a lot of money to put one back into operation > and you would have to have the support there to run one. My question > really was if the West Chester branch could be a place to run one > if one were in shape to run and everything else was in place to > be able to run it. I did wonder though if there was one G that > was retired more or less intact. One that would'nt need much in the way > of work. > > As for a place to repair one...barring the removal of the car body... > I do recall that Strasburg once did repairs on one back in PC days > for one that went lame out on the main line. Strasburg was nearby > and it had been decided to tow it there for repairs. I think it > had something to do with its wheel bearings. Strasburg also has a > drop pit and wheel lathe. They did the wheel work for UP 4-8-4 > No. 844. There might not be parts made for the GG-1 anymore but... > concider this. I work for a large shipyard. There are many parts > on ships that are similar to railway equipment. I have seen > all kinds of engineroom parts that are similar if not the same as > railway parts. One that comes to mind was a Worthington feed water > heater that i saw a couple of years ago on a ship that was only > a few years old. EMD made a marine version of the 567 engine so > did FM(and they still do)and also Alco. Some of the engine and > related control parts are interchangeable between railway and > marine applications. Also ships use all kinds of motors ,pumps and >transformers (although most run off of 440-480 volts) and related electrical > control equipment. There are many tug boats around (including some former > PRR tugs) that are out there over 40-50 years old. > > Thanks again.... > > Til Later > Hank Mummert > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: Fw: [PRR] GG-1s and a place to run one. Could it be done? Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:48:20 -0400 I personally had charge of the maintenance of the P-5s at Enola and we did it all with only a drop table and no overhead crane. We DID on occasion put a G on the drop table and do wheel work when there was no other way to get it to Wilmington. Yes it CAN be done. Anything CAN be done. But is it worth the trouble? Please see my response to "bubbles" in a later post down this list for more opinion on the subject. Bill -----Original Message----- From: FRANKGARON@aol.com To: herzog@icanect.net Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 8:25 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [PRR] GG-1s and a place to run one. Could it be done? >Hi Bill: > >Appreciate your candor. However, when we did our research, we did speak to a >good batch of former PRR men, men who worked at Wilmington Shops, Ivy City, >former Road Foremen of Engineers, on and on. They all worked on the G's >every day, and were well aware of their problems. > >I know you have a strong railroad background (love your PRR photos, BTW!), >and I respect your opinion, but we had a majority of qualified, experienced >people that said it could be done. Had people that could have gotten George >Warrington's ear. Friends in the right places with NJ Transit, Friends in DC, >etc etc. > >There is NO ONE problem that is insurmountable in restoring a GG1 to service, >AFAIK. It simply is a matter of $$$, a shop with an overhead crane (Juniata >Terminal, anyone?) and just as important, political connections. Restoring a >G to service would by neccesity result in compromises/modifications/etc, but >it can be done. > >Bold, yes. Goofy, No. > >Respectfully submitted, > >Frank Garon >Still holding out hope... > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT: Feedback Received/Acted Upon Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:37:58 -0400 Are we having fun yet? (Daddy?) I'd say we are , son. -----Original Message----- From: PRRMAN@aol.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 6:52 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT: Feedback Received/Acted Upon >In a message dated 99-08-11 01:13:06 EDT, vck@andrew.cmu.edu writes: > ><< I must add my support for an un-moderated discussion on this list. >> > >Jerry and all--- > This list is the most informative, well-mannered and just-plain-fun >of all the railfan lists I'm on. It's fine just the way it is. The so-called >"flame wars" here are very infrequent, and quite mild compared to >what happens elsewhere! I fully agree with Andrew's comments >about everything being slowed down on a moderated list. >Don't change anything. > >Rich Copeland > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] a running GG-1? Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:39:44 -0400 An EMD engine in a baggage car WITH traction motors would be more like it!!!!! Of course the fuel tank would be REAL baggage. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Robert A. Boyd To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 8:37 PM Subject: [PRR] a running GG-1? >>Illinois Railway Museum has a trolley operation on their about 5 mile >>main. As >>is common with most trolley lines, the overhead is 600 volt DC, but I believe >>it is pantagraph compatible. >> >>This leaves the internal workings of the G. - but that may not be a problem if >>the AC motors can handle DC. > >===== > >This is probably the most practical solution, as there are already some >trolley wires up in various places and more can be put up fairly easily. >With a 600 volt wire, all you need is a set of standard diesel throttle >controls which can be found just about anywhere. > >Of course- one could eliminate the problem all together by building an EMD >567 into a baggage car and MUing it to the G. That would really open up >the possibilities- we may even see GG-1s operating on Lines West! How do >you suppose a GG-1 would have performed on the Fort Wayne District? :-}> > >Bob (can't resist a straight line) > >Robert A. Boyd > >======== >Those Classic Trains >"Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" > >"The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service >http://www.thoseclassictrains.com > >history - technology - modeling - sources >Classified Ads - Bubba's Web Resources - and Psycho too! >======== > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas Fry" Subject: [PRR] GG1 Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 13:45:19 -0400 If we wish to get a little crazy here: 1: Put a D_generator in it to supply Electric power: or 2: Put the DG in a Box/Repair car that it hauls: This way it could travel as part of a PRR historical piece, which may help get it paid for. tom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] X-40b & "Merchandise Service" Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:04:10 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell On 12 Aug, Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > The 100 X40b's WERE the original Merchandise Service cars. Designed for > that purpose, to the best of my knowledge. Then *why* in the world did they build a 60' car with only a 7' door? I would think that rapid movement of packages in and out would be a key factor to reducing dwell time. Microscale also makes Merchandise Service decals, but you'd have to piece together the striping and find the dimensional data elsewhere for anything longer than a 40' car. Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 17:23:06 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 I would still love to see a G run, however, running one off of DG set is not that practical. The basic GG1 developed 4620 continues HP with short time locked rotor to about 9k. So just to power this thing you'll need the equivalent of two SD75s equipped 4000 hp diesel locomotive acting as power source. Just one would make for a slow start. Unlike straight electric's, diesels can not exceed their engine output. Two assumptions at this point, 1. you keep all the innards at 25 Hz 2. you want to make money to pay for all the toys. 1. To keep the 25 hz innards you'll need 25 hz generating equipment - either an (two) alternators that can be attached to our SD75s or an MG set to convert the SD75's output from 60 Hz to 25 Hz you can keep it at 600 volts A/C for transmission to the G, your going to need a ton of copper between the two too. 2. Looking at our train now, we have a GG1 dragging two SD75(b)s (Sans traction motors and cab, but with a full load of fuel), along with a big MG set that would weight close to GP9. Now we need to add some coaches (need to make money) I'm not going to do the math but with all the weight for the power generation and converter, we may be lucky to get one or two passenger cars onto it. Some one else can figure the cost per seat. I too will support an effort to run a G again. However, I don't think it will happen without it attached to catenary. Cos Thomas Fry wrote: > If we wish to get a little crazy here: > > 1: Put a D_generator in it to supply Electric power: > or > 2: Put the DG in a Box/Repair car that it hauls: > > This way it could travel as part of a PRR historical piece, which may help > get it paid for. > > tom > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk",