Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 01:27:00 -0500 From: Dave Freshwater Subject: [PRR] Reply about PRR K4 License Plates I sent a message off to the RR Museum of PA about the K4 license plates, for those of us out of state. Here is their reply. Dave Freshwater North Potomac, Md -----------------------Message Separator----------------------- Subject: RR heritage license plates Date: Thu, 31 Dec 98 12:47:00 -0500 From: david_dunn@phmc.state.pa.us To: Mr. Freshwater: It is our understanding the PennDOT will be soon making a "sample" license plate available for sale. The sample will have four zero's on the plate so people can't tape numbers on and knock over Seven Elevens with a bogus plate. We hope to sell them in the Museum Shop, but no date of availability or price has been mentioned. Check back with us in about two or three months, maybe we will have them by then. David Dunn, Director ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 00:38:03 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR Lettering Phases - Updates for the Website Happy New Year! All of you must have had a great holiday season, as only Terry Stuart picked up the challenge to critique points of accuracy on the Keystone Crossings website freight car lettering "page." Thanks to Jerry Britton for being tolerant of my beefing about fine points of PRR's freight car lettering practices; I appreciate his continuing work in keeping us all communicating via Keystone Crossings and PRR-Talk. As promised, here's my New Year's Eve list of nitpicks on the freight car scheme portion of the Keystone Crossings website. Again, I apologize for being a scale rule Richard (pun intended here), but I've been researching this area pretty hard recently, and Jerry and I both want the posted info to be correct. It's unfortunate that the Summer 1988 Keystone is out of print, as Brady McGuire's article illustrates all the below so well: DESCRIPTIONS 1. NK3 "PENNSYLVANIA" is not double-underlined on any of the NK3 pictures I've found. I've just verified this again from PRR freight car photos in a 1916 Car Builder's Cyclopedia. A one-inch bar is placed between the 7" PENNSYLVANIA and the 7" car number, like PENNSYLVANIA 123456 2. NK4. Says the number is underlined, but "PENNSYLVANIA" is not. More correctly, the 7" reporting marks are bracketed above and below by 1" lines: _____________ PENNSYLVANIA 123456 3. "Don't Stand Me Still" and the calendar script numbers aren't contemporaries, and aren't used on the same car. - DSMS was used only on X29D. In fact, it was used only on 500 of the X29D's that were rebuilt in August 1955, well into the SK1b period. - SK1a was used on just a few cars (February to June 1954): 20 X48's, the first order of 350 H34's, and a few boxcar repaints. - Don't confuse X29D rebuilds with X29B. X29B's rebuilds (1948) were way too early to carry SK1a, although some did carry MS1 Merchandise scheme, which is of course based on the CK scheme. CAR MODELS SHOWN ON THE SITE 4. PRR 913467 has reporting marks of NK3, but carries CK herald. Wonder if this ever happened in real life? No prototype photos like this known to me. 5. PRR 69636 is recognizably SK2b pattern, but the PRR and the 69636 don't look the same size. They should both be 7" letters. 6. PRR 720452 looks like SK2a (not SK2b) to me, because the reporting marks are in Roman. 7. PRR 67402 represents PK, but the numbers 67402 look a little small. According to Brady, these were 10" numerals under a 14" bold Gothic PRR. 8. And from Terry Stuart: PRR 497289 Terry questions the white S in a white box. In every prototype boxcar picture I've seen with this style stores marking, the S is yellow in a yellow box, not white. Terry is also correct that the PRR is not quite the correct lettering style. It should probably be slightly fatter (it's BOLD Gothic) and placed slightly lower, since this is just extra markings (and a nonrevenue car number) on a PK paint scheme. BTW, just to keep the pot boiling, does anybody have a strong opinion of which phase (s) is represented by Bowser's lettering of the F30A flat car? If so, what persuades you it belongs to that phase? Rick Tipton On the Panhandle in Louisville KY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 11:14:05 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser F30A flatcar On Thu, 31 Dec 1998, Jim Six wrote: > Y'all, > > I am trying to learn more about Pennsy freight cars so that I can model them > reasonably accurately. I opened up the box of a Bowser F30A flat car and > want to get started building, detailing and weathering it. I looked ion my > copy of PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment and, like, . . . > there ain't no F30A flat cars in the book. As close as I can come in that > book is an F30H bulkhead end flat. Color Guide 2 shows 2 pages worth, plus one resurrected as a M/W car. I can try to answer specific questions, but I'm not even gonna try to make a general description. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 11:25:50 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Lettering Phases - Updates for the Website (reply list considerably pruned; maybe i shouldn't have, but i feel bad about sending messages here and there...) On Fri, 1 Jan 1999 RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > Happy New Year! > > 8. And from Terry Stuart: PRR 497289 Terry questions the white S in a white > box. In every prototype boxcar picture I've seen with this style stores > marking, the S is yellow in a yellow box, not white. Terry is also correct > that the PRR is not quite the correct lettering style. It should probably be > slightly fatter (it's BOLD Gothic) and placed slightly lower, since this is > just extra markings (and a nonrevenue car number) on a PK paint scheme. I won't argue this, but what was white S, white box? No picture in the color guides illustrates this, which probably means it's a GIF or JPG I saw. Will see if I can find it, again. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 11:15:42 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Lettering Phases - Updates for the Website In a message dated 1/1/99 2:52:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: > DESCRIPTIONS > 1. NK3 "PENNSYLVANIA" is not double-underlined on any of the NK3 pictures I' > ve > found. I've just verified this again from PRR freight car photos in a 1916 > Car Builder's Cyclopedia. A one-inch bar is placed between the 7" > PENNSYLVANIA and the 7" car number, like > > PENNSYLVANIA > 123456 > > 2. NK4. Says the number is underlined, but "PENNSYLVANIA" is not. More > correctly, the 7" reporting marks are bracketed above and below by 1" lines: > _____________ > PENNSYLVANIA > 123456 > Gize, I see that the system elected to delete the underlines from my above earlier posting -- in two important places. Let's drop back to a more "ASCII" representation. The NK3 (1906-1926) should have the 1" bar between PENNSYLVANIA and the numerals: PENNSYLVANIA (7 inch extended railroad Roman) --------------------- (one inch solid line) 123456 (7 inch extended railroad Roman) NK4 (1926-1930) uses a reporting marks pattern that carries on into CK (1930-1954). Again, all the characters of the reporting mark are in the 7" extended railroad Roman. In this scheme, there is a 1" line spaced 2" above the PENNSYLVANIA, and another 1" line spaced 2" below the numerals. The ASCII approximation: -------------------- PENNSYLVANIA 123456 --------- As always, a prototype photo is the best guide. But the above seems to be good, hard-and-fast PRR practice, and I'd appreciate hearing about any exceptions. Hope the above clears up any confusion. Again, I wish the Keystone was still in print back to Summer 1988, as Brady McGuire's article illustrates all this and more so well. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 21:36:42 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR's "Texas Eagle" The 1999 Morning Sun PRR calendar has a fanciful advertising poster which depicts 12 PRR diesel-powered passenger trains "coming at you" on 12 parallel tracks. The two leaders, in the center, are labelled "Broadway Ltd." and "Liberty Ltd.". The other trains are labelled as the General, Spirit of St.Louis, Trail Blazer, Jeffersonian, Clevelander, Cincinnati Ltd., Admiral, Red Arrow, St.Louisan, and, to my surprise, the "Texas Eagle". I was surprised because I had thought that the assemblage of NY/Washington-Texas cars had always carried the name "Penn Texas". A May 1949 Official Guide, calls PRR No. 3 the "Penn Texas" (and trumpets the new "Texas Eagle" in the Missouri Pacific section). But my previous Guide (August 1948) identifies No. 3 as the "Sunshine Special", which was MP's old, pre-streamlining, St.Louis- Texas train. So logic would indicate that there was a short period during which No. 3 was, indeed, called the "Texas Eagle". Does anyone on here have exact dates, or even just a schedule which shows this train name on PRR lines? Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 01:16:08 -0500 From: Dave Freshwater Subject: [PRR] Tower Paint Schemes When did PRR shift its paint scheme for towers from tan/brown to grey/grey for towers? Dave Freshwater North Potomac, MD ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 18:02:08 EST Subject: [PRR] Unloading Some Pennsy Stuff Folks, Before placing an add in MR, I thought I might offer some odds and ends to you guys first.(Don't worry Jerry, it doesn't include anything Desktop Solutions sells). Amoung other items there's a couple Atlas Pennsy RS11's, CCS R50 kit, 44-tonner, P2K E8, Alpha N5 a/f cabin, books, etc all Pennsy decorated or stlye, and a Walthers MP54 combine/coach set painted and lettered and powered (combine RTR). Also a Gilbert DL600b as used as a passenger helper on Horseshoe (and the model actually runs pretty fair, but is still in demo colors. There's more stuff, too, but I don't want to get too abusive of this list. Please advise offline if interested. Happy New Year and may the Good Lord bless you all. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] Class GS gons (Bowser) in MW service Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 16:56:04 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BE35A7.9E1F1400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Within the past few days somebody posted a message regarding painting a = Bowser class GS gon in yellow w/ black CK logo for MW service. Be careful here if you want to be perfectly prototypical. Ken McCorry, = Paul Backenstose and I have been collaborating on developing an all = time list of PRR non-revenue MW equipment for several years now. The = list is incomplete but growing all the time, one of these days it will = be to the point of completion that it can be published. As far as I can = determine from a quick scan of the list there are no class GS gons on = the incomplete roster. If there is any information out there on class GS = gons in MW service please advise. Thanx. Most all gons in MW service (1940s to the end) were classes GR, GRA, = G-22 and G-26. The later being modified as panelized turnout carriers.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BE35A7.9E1F1400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Within the past few days somebody = posted a=20 message regarding painting a Bowser class GS gon in yellow w/ black CK = logo for=20 MW service.
 
Be careful here if you want to be = perfectly=20 prototypical. Ken McCorry, Paul Backenstose and I have been = collaborating =20 on developing an all time list of PRR non-revenue MW equipment for = several years=20 now. The list is incomplete but growing all the time, one of these days = it will=20 be to the point of completion that it can be published. As far as I can=20 determine from a quick scan of the list there are no class GS gons on = the=20 incomplete roster. If there is any information out there on class GS = gons in MW=20 service please advise. Thanx.
 
Most all gons in MW service (1940s = to the end)=20 were classes GR, GRA, G-22 and G-26. The later being modified as = panelized=20 turnout carriers.
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BE35A7.9E1F1400-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] S Cars Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 16:38:03 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE35A5.1A103BA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Somebody posted a message within the last day asking about PRR cars with = the white "S" inside the white box. First of all it was a yellow "S" inside a yellow box. The Bowser = printing of this on their X31A and the Middle Division decal sheet that = includes this symbol in white is incorrect. Also because of fading, = light conditions, and color shift in film, pictures of "S-cars" could = give the impression that the symbol was a dirty or off white.=20 The symbol was applied to cars under the control of the material and = stores department that were dedicated to move company material around = the system. The cars included class X-29 and X-31A box cars for all = sorts of materials, H-30 cover hoppers for sand, and F45B flat cars for = wheels. The cars were typically painted freight car red, although some = of the sand cars were painted yellow. Tank cars (gray with black = lettering in later years) were also used to ship oil but they did not = display the S symbol. All cars in these types service were classified = as non-revenue and were numbered within the non-revenue block of car = numbers =20 Although a lot of material was shipped directly to the point of use by = manufacturers much of it was shipped to central warehouses and = distributed from there as required. The "S-cars" were moved from point = to point in revenue freight trains. In the mid 1950s the PRR had over = 175,000 line items, valued at over $70 million stored in over 130 = storehouses, 100 "working stocks" and 320 material yards and minor = storage points. Al ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE35A5.1A103BA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Somebody posted a message within the = last day=20 asking about PRR cars with the white "S" inside the white=20 box.
 
First of all it was a yellow=20 "S" inside a yellow box. The Bowser printing of this on = their=20 X31A and the Middle Division decal sheet that includes this symbol in = white is=20 incorrect. Also because of fading, light conditions, and color = shift in=20 film, pictures of "S-cars" could give the impression that the = symbol=20 was a dirty or off white.
 
The symbol was applied to cars under = the control=20 of the material and stores department that were dedicated to move = company=20 material around the system. The cars included class X-29 and X-31A box = cars for=20 all sorts of materials, H-30 cover hoppers for sand, and F45B flat cars = for=20 wheels. The cars were typically painted freight car red, although some = of the=20 sand cars were painted yellow. Tank cars (gray with black lettering in = later=20 years) were also used to ship oil but they did not display the S symbol. = All=20 cars in these  types service were classified as non-revenue and = were=20 numbered within the non-revenue block of car numbers   =
 
Although a lot of material was = shipped directly=20 to the point of use by manufacturers much of it was shipped to central=20 warehouses and distributed from there as required. The = "S-cars" were=20 moved from point to point in revenue freight trains. In the mid 1950s = the PRR=20 had over 175,000 line items, valued at over $70 million stored in over = 130=20 storehouses, 100 "working stocks" and 320 material yards and = minor=20 storage points.
 
Al
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE35A5.1A103BA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 12:09:08 EST Subject: [PRR] Am I still on the list? Jerry, I haven't seen any Pennsy or Reading listings since early New Year's Day. What's goin' on? Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 13:06:23 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser F30A flatcar Plans or diagrams of the F30A can be found in the February 1991 issue of Mainline Modeler. A photo and construction drawings are in Train Shed Cyclopedia #17. A thirteen page article with numerous photos and drawings appeared in the Spring 1990 issue of The Keystone. The trucks are certainly not andrews or crown. The trucks were class 2E-F10, except for car # 475265, which ad 2E-F13. The design is described as double truss sideframes, with non-harmonic spring groups. Visible in the photo of the trucks is one coil spring and one leaf spring. In a message dated 12/31/98 4:08:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, jimsix@ncweb.com writes: << I am trying to learn more about Pennsy freight cars so that I can model them reasonably accurately. I opened up the box of a Bowser F30A flat car and want to get started building, detailing and weathering it. I looked ion my copy of PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment and, like, . . . there ain't no F30A flat cars in the book. As close as I can come in that book is an F30H bulkhead end flat. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 13:57:38 -0500 From: Dave Freshwater Subject: [PRR] B&O M-26A Box Cars I am not a member of the B&O Historical Society; a friend forwarded me this message. And, even though it ain't PRR, yuo have to have some cars from that other road in your consist. So, I decided to forward this on to the list. Some of you might be interested and this will help a good cause. I can't answer any questions beyond what is in the message, except I did order cars from them already (but haven't received them, so no review.) Dave Freshwater North Potomac, MD --------------------- As many B&O Historical Society members already know, we're in the midst of running a project on N-scale boxcars, B&O class M26-a. This style of 40' single door, steel-sheathed boxcar was the B&O's most prevalent class, running from the late 1920's on into the 1960's. We have sold many of these to our members via a reservation process and will offer the rest on public sale beginning at the next Great Scale Train show in Timonium, MD in late January 1999. In the meantime, we'd be happy to fill any orders that come to us by mail. I would ask that you share this info with your N-scale friends. Our cars are made by Red Caboose, well respected for the quality and accuracy of their work. Our society only sells B&O models if they are at minimum 85% accurate to the prototype. We work closely with many model makers to assure quality and correctness of B&O models that reach the marketplace. Proceeds from these projects goes to keeping our archives and the archive building in the black and able to support more projects and the general needs of historians and researchers to have access to the records and such that we possess. Red Caboose is running us a set of cars with 12 different road numbers, and these numbers will be unique to the Society and not available from any other source. The cars will be here later in December, and I will personally ship them asap via Priority Mail. I cannot promise delivery for Christmas, but it will be very close. We are selling the cars in sets of 4, 8 or 12 cars. Prices are: FOUR CAR SETS /__/ $54.00 for a set of 4 cars. /__/ MD residents send $57.00 to cover MD sales tax. EIGHT CAR SETS /__/ $106.00 for a set of 8 cars. /__/ MD residents send $112.00 to cover MD sales tax. TWELVE CAR SETS /__/ $158.00 for a set of 12 cars. /__/ MD residents send $166.00 to cover MD sales tax. Interested N-trakkers should send their check or money order to: N-Scale Boxcar Project B&O RR Historical Society P. O. Box 24068 Baltimore, MD 21227-0568 Buyers can send in a copy of this email with their name & address, plus an email or phone number they can be reached at. All prices include the cost of Priority Mail. Thank you very much! s/Mike Cather V-P Finance & Marketing B&O RR Historical Society ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: locoshop@juno.com Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 12:03:15 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Fw: [SEMRA] Update on LL GP7's Here we go all, this is the new list of next run GP7s all non-dynamic. Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com --------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Rich Warner To: SEMRA@LISTSERV.DARTMOUTH.EDU Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 12:03:13 -0500 Subject: [SEMRA] Update on LL GP7's Message-ID: <000101be3671$c95e2ff0$3e246018@400.gte.net> These should be available in April, 1999. Life Like is making the following locomotives: Santa Fe Blue/Yellow Billboards 3 Road Numbers B&O Blue 2 Road Numbers C&NW Green & Yellow 2 Road Numbers CRI&P Red,White,Black 2 Road Numbers FEC Red & Yellow 2 Road Numbers GN Green & Orange 3 Road Numbers IC Black w/ Grn Diamond 2 Road Numbers L&N Black & Cream 2 Road Numbers MP Blue & Gray 2 Road Numbers NYC Lightning Stripe 2 Road Numbers PRR Brunswick Green 2 Road Numbers SAL Green & Cream 2 Road Numbers Undec All locos will be without dynamic brakes and without steam generators. Rich ____________________________________________________________ End of SEMRA message. Postings: SEMRA@LISTSERV.DARTMOUTH.EDU Commands: LISTSERV@LISTSERV.DARTMOUTH.EDU Online Help: http://www.dartmouth.edu/~dbott/mra_faq.html Web Search: http://listserv.dartmouth.edu/Archives/semra.html Report problems to: SEMRA-Request@LISTSERV.DARTMOUTH.EDU ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 13:13:46 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Six' latest: PRR GS gon Rick, there were three GS' running in revenue service in 1968. Of course, the ORER doesn't give paint scheme info, but sounds reasonable to me. John Keel In a message dated 12/31/98 7:21:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << I'll soon have to decide how decrepit to make one of these in SK1b (1954) scheme look in 1968, which is pushing credibility a little. My cowardly but prototypical alternative of course is to go MoW yaller in a circle keystone scheme... Rick Tipton >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 20:52:47 -0800 From: "Eugene E. Deimling" Subject: [PRR] Middle Division I saw a reference to Middle Division decals in a recent email. Are they still in business??? I ahve purchased some cabin car decals years ago in O scale and like them. Gene Deimling ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Six" Subject: [PRR] AC&Y logo/herald Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 23:53:21 -0500 HELP! I have a decal manufacturer about to get started on doing an AC&Y freightcar decal set for HO scale. Only thing we need is a scan of the AC&Y logo/herald. If anybody has one that they can scan and send to me ASAP I would appreciate it -- so would a lot of other modelers as well! Jim Six jimsix@ncweb.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 00:14:32 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Clipping the wings of (PRR's) Texas Eagle Greetings to Rich and the list: Rich wrote: > I was surprised because I had thought that the assemblage > of NY/Washington-Texas cars had always carried the > name "Penn Texas". Me too. A check of Form 1 timetables shows that indeed, Nos. 3 and 4 carried the name Sunshine Special in the 7/11/48 issue, but the name was changed to Texas Eagle in the following editions: 8/15/48 9/26/48 10/31/48 By the next issue, that of 12/12/48, the name had been changed to Penn Texas. So it appears that this was an extremely short-lived PRR name train name, lasting perhaps four months. It would be interesting to know why the change was made -- perhaps confusion at St. Louis if, for example, the eastbound/northbound MP Texas Eagle was delayed and the eastbound PRR Texas Eagle left for NY without waiting for the connecting sleepers. I can well imagine the exasperated ticket agent at St. Louis Union answering the query of an equally exasperated passenger: "What do you mean, I missed it? It hasn't even arrived yet!" After all, this wasn't a true inter-railroad train like the California Zephyr, C&NW-UP and C&NW-UP-SP "City" trains, or, for that matter, PRR-RF&P-ACL/SAL/FEC NY-Florida trains. It was a through-car connection, nothing more, nothing less, and certainly not a solid train. That's what I love about this list. The more you think you know about the PRR, the more you discover you don't really know it at all. Dan Dan Cupper dan@cwix.com Psalm 150 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Prr interchange traffic Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 22:22:58 -0800 I recently could not pass up a deal on two O scale box cars manufactured by Precision Scale. They are PSC number 15559, 50 ft , wood outside braced, fishbelly centerseal, 1&1/2 door boxcars. I model the steam era of the 30s and 40s on the Pennsy. I want these cars to fit in. Does anyone know of a prototype for these cars appropriate for a car in interchange with the pennsy? I believe they may be prototypical for southern pacific. Thanks, Greg Stone ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] More LL GP7's in PRR? Date: Sun, 3 Jan 99 08:46:46 -0500 From: Jerry On 1/2/99 1:03 PM, locoshop@juno.com (locoshop@juno.com) wrote: >Here we go all, this is the new list of next run GP7s all non-dynamic. > >These should be available in April, 1999. > >PRR Brunswick Green 2 Road Numbers Please confirm. They just did three numbers in PRR. Are they really doing two more? ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Unloading Some Pennsy Stuff Date: Sun, 3 Jan 99 08:39:40 -0500 From: Jerry On 1/1/99 6:02 PM, BPX29@aol.com (BPX29@aol.com) wrote: >Before placing an add in MR, I thought I might offer some odds and ends to >you >guys first.(Don't worry Jerry, it doesn't include anything Desktop Solutions >sells). Amoung other items there's a couple Atlas Pennsy RS11's, CCS R50 kit, >44-tonner, P2K E8, >Alpha N5 a/f cabin, books, etc all Pennsy decorated or stlye, and a Walthers >MP54 combine/coach set painted and lettered and powered (combine RTR). Also a >Gilbert DL600b as used as a passenger helper on Horseshoe (and the model >actually runs pretty fair, but is still in demo colors. There's more stuff, >too, but I don't want to get too abusive of this list. Please advise offline >if interested. Bruce and others: Posting PRR stuff you want to sell off on this list is appropriate. Merchandise Service does sell PRR stuff, and its proceeds offset costs of running my server and domains. However, I am not trying to corner the market! That little snippet at the bottom of every post is for rent -- when it is not rented it, by default, points folks to my shop. If D&S or any other vendor wants to pay for that snippet space, I'll give it up in a flash. Your use of the list for the above is appropriate. Just the same, thanks for the consideration. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Bachman K4 & varnish From: fredrea@juno.com (Fred G Rea) Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 11:44:55 EST In 1995 I began buying equipment for my new layout, PRR in the late 1940's. One of my first purchases was to mail order a Bachman K-4 and 3 cars (diner, combine & coach). I did not know I had a choice and got the gaudy "multi stripe" K-4. Doesn't look like what I remember at all. To make matters worse it is noisy and will barely pull the 3 cars on level track and not at all on my 2.5% grades. I attribute this to poor pulling power of the K-4 and incredible drag from the otherwise beautiful cars. One of the "What I got from Santa" letters referred to new K-4s. The first hobby shop I checked had not heard of any, the second showed me one! It would appear they have redone the K-4 to the standards of their well known 2-8-0. Great! Then my son gave a set of truck from a Bachman obs and one of the new Pullmans. Both the trucks and the pullman roll great. Virtually no drag yet good electrical pick up. I notice Train World uses a new product number for the new K-4. Same old product number on the cars. Have the cars, particularly the trucks, been re-designed? If so, are the new trucks as good looking and PRR style as the old ones? How can I be sure I am getting better rolling if I order more cars, particularly coaches? Can I get new trucks to retro fit the 3 old cars I have? Any suggestions or warnings as I try to remove the gaudy stripes from the old K-4?. I want to weather it and use it as a "helper" with either my Proto 200 Pa+Pb or a newer K-4. The PA will haul 15 passenger cars (including the 3 drag intensive Bachmans) and the dummy PB on my 2.5% with out hesitating! The "helper" would be pure cosmetics. Maybe the old K-4 should just occupy a piece of track in a park! Unfortunately, not yet done in the late 40's. I would also like to blacken the rods on the K-4, a Rivarossi Y6, and 3 Bowser locos. Any ideas or warnings on this. Paint? Hobby Black? Forget it? Thanks Fred Rea NMRA PRRH&TS ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 11:31:48 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] More LL GP7's in PRR? On Sun, 3 Jan 1999, Jerry wrote: > >These should be available in April, 1999. > > > >PRR Brunswick Green 2 Road Numbers > > Please confirm. They just did three numbers in PRR. Are they really doing > two more? those were dynamic. these are not. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ogarasteam@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 12:58:32 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bachman K4 & varnish I have used gun blueing on Bowser rods and this gives them a nice grimy black look. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ogarasteam@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 12:54:51 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bachman K4 & varnish You could use the Bowser conversion for the Bachman K4. It will pull 17 passenger cars ( Riv) Did you try and replace the wheels with new KD wheels . Every Hobby Shop that sell thier couplers sell the replacement wheels. Paint the engine & tender Brun.green and then add and extra details and weather.Joe O ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 14:01:17 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Middle Division Yes, they're still in business. I bought a PRR blueprint from the owner recently, and asked him the same question. He confirmed that they are still in business. John Keel In a message dated 1/3/99 1:05:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, eedlg@concentric.net writes: << I saw a reference to Middle Division decals in a recent email. Are they still in business??? I ahve purchased some cabin car decals years ago in O scale and like them. Gene Deimling >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 14:18:08 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bachman K4 & varnish In a message dated 1/3/99 10:53:27 AM Central Standard Time, fredrea@juno.com writes: << It would appear they have redone the K-4 to the standards of their well known 2-8-0. >> This is the second or third reference to this. Is this really true and is it DCC socket equipped? Anyone on the list know? BTW, I just used chalks to weather two of the K4s. I used mix of green and ash to give it a used look and at least give it a slight hint of DGLE underneath. Used straight ash on the oxide red cab roof and tender cistern top. Had to work like crazy on the 1375 to darken the glossy silver smokebox and ashpan- even oily chalks don't adhere to the paint used there. Of course, an overall weathering with an airbrush would work a little easier, but I wanted to control it better as I went. 1375 with that shininess removed looks great! Reason I ask about the DCC decoder plug is that I tried to take one of the Bachmann K4s apart to requarter the drivers and install a decoder, but 8 jillion parts flew off in every direction. Guess I'll have to get some 4-year-old Chinese kids to put it back together. If you could reach the bottom motor brush lead to clip it and resolder a new wire without disassembly, the project would work. Bob Zoeller Fox Point, WI ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 16:05:16 -0500 From: Brian Brooks Subject: Re: [PRR] Class GS gons (Bowser) in MW service At 04:56 PM 1/1/99 -0500, you wrote: >Ken McCorry, Paul Backenstose and I have been collaborating on developing an all time list of PRR >non-revenue MW equipment for several years now. The list is incomplete but growing all the time, one of >these days it will be to the point of completion that it can be published. As far as I can determine from a >quick scan of the list there are no class GS gons on the incomplete roster. If there is any information out >there on class GS gons in MW service please advise. Thanx. > Alan, There are many modelers who would benefit from your research. Any chance we can twist your collective arms to get at least some of your data on the web? Brian Brooks ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] PRR weight/scale cars Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 12:45:07 -0800 Does anyone no of a decal or transfer company that produces lettering for a wieght/ scale car? Greg Stone PRRT&HS member interested in any information or photos on the Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 16:48:24 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bachman K4 & varnish Regarding the new K-4. I picked one up at Mitchells last week during their sale and in comparing it to an original Bachman that I have had for a few years here are the differences. The mechanism is completely new , rear driver is sprung , drivers have much thinner spokes the lead truck has a shorter wheelbase and the front pilot is set up for an operating coupler. The drawbar is also new a neat design allowing really close coupling on a straightaway and allows it to open up on a curve. The tender body is the same as before the frame,drawbar attachment coupler mounting and the wiring plugs are new . Tender trucks are now used for elec. pickup there is a decoder plug inside the tender which will allow me to install the SoundTrax K-4 decoder I've got. The engine weights more than the original so it should pull better I haven't tested this as of yet. The one I have seen test run on DC ran quietly and smoothly. As soon as I insatll the decoder I'll let you all know how it runs on DCC. Joe Gotaskie a list member also picked one up at Mitchells when we were there. We both agreed that the new one is a vast improvement over the original. Some of the detail parts used the bell, whistle and generator are a little heavy sided but with these replaced and a paint job it would be hard to tell from a PFM version from years ago. Now I have to build a B-60 with open doors for the railfans to hang out of on the steam fantrips on my Northern Central. Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] RE: K4 and Varnish Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 12:43:14 -0800 To weather the rods on my O scale steam I used walnut stain by one of the model rr paint makers. I can't remember which one. This gives the rods that oily appearance, not black but like oil comming out of a can. You can add varying degrees of stain to make it darker. It looks just like the rods I have seen on steam still in existance..i.e. the strassburg rr. The rods are still steel color but it takes away the shine and gives it that aged look. Greg Stone PRRT&HS member Interested in any information or photos on the Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 19:00:21 EST Subject: Catching Up: was Re: [PRR] fwd: Millstone Branch? [long] Just catching up on the holiday backlog: back last year, Chris Brandt replied to "contact" with: (QUOTE) Subj: Re: [PRR] fwd: Millstone Branch?[long] Date: 98-12-22 22:57:14 EST From: cobrandt@eclipse.net (Chris Brandt) Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com To: contact@nighthawk.nu CC: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Forwarded from misc.transport.rail.americas: > > ------- Forwarded Message > > From: NIGHTHAWK COMMS > Newsgroups: misc.transport.rail.americas > Subject: PRR INFO NEEDED!!!! > Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:32:53 -0500 > > Does anyone know where I can find info on the PRR's Millstone Brach? I > had a huge site site pictures built about it and the damn server caught > fire. Problem is I don't remember who gave me the good info. > This line leaves the NEC 5 miles south of New Brunswick, NJ (NJT's > Jersey Ave station is at the begining) and continued all the way to E > Millstone. CR just replaced all the ties on what is left of the > once-busy branch. Some idiot build his back yard right over the > abandoned section. > Any help would be appriciated!!! > > ------- End of Forwarded Message > Pulled this out from the dusty archive...... (END QUOTE, AND SNIPPED THE REST (MY OLD POSTING)) Gosh, I've been elevated in status from "old farte" to "dusty archive"; glad to see that the stuff we "armatures" post are considered useful enough to save. Right now, I'm saving the matching material recently posted by Doug Hart and Frank Garon on the Reading and PRR in Mercer County, NJ. Best wishes to all for the New Year. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA and Niles IL !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 19:00:21 EST Subject: Catching Up: was Re: [PRR] fwd: Millstone Branch? [long] Just catching up on the holiday backlog: back last year, Chris Brandt replied to "contact" with: (QUOTE) Subj: Re: [PRR] fwd: Millstone Branch?[long] Date: 98-12-22 22:57:14 EST From: cobrandt@eclipse.net (Chris Brandt) Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com To: contact@nighthawk.nu CC: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Forwarded from misc.transport.rail.americas: > > ------- Forwarded Message > > From: NIGHTHAWK COMMS > Newsgroups: misc.transport.rail.americas > Subject: PRR INFO NEEDED!!!! > Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:32:53 -0500 > > Does anyone know where I can find info on the PRR's Millstone Brach? I > had a huge site site pictures built about it and the damn server caught > fire. Problem is I don't remember who gave me the good info. > This line leaves the NEC 5 miles south of New Brunswick, NJ (NJT's > Jersey Ave station is at the begining) and continued all the way to E > Millstone. CR just replaced all the ties on what is left of the > once-busy branch. Some idiot build his back yard right over the > abandoned section. > Any help would be appriciated!!! > > ------- End of Forwarded Message > Pulled this out from the dusty archive...... (END QUOTE, AND SNIPPED THE REST (MY OLD POSTING)) Gosh, I've been elevated in status from "old farte" to "dusty archive"; glad to see that the stuff we "armatures" post are considered useful enough to save. Right now, I'm saving the matching material recently posted by Doug Hart and Frank Garon on the Reading and PRR in Mercer County, NJ. Best wishes to all for the New Year. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA and Niles IL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 20:09:11 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR]Pass Car Survey out come Andy, Jerry and all, Jerry, to answer your question the R-50b was seen coast to coast as a matter of fact the "War Bonnette" a few months back did an article on headend equipment and this was one of those "must have" cars along with the B-60. Andy, doesn't it surprise you that no one in the group mentioned the Pullman Standard Troop Sleeper in the three different doors. Although Pennsy had it's own vrsion of the "troop sleeper" one can not ignore the fact that the BM and NH sent many of these car west over the P Co. I had a Roller Bearing Models cast resin (very brittle) and just sent it to a friend in hte Chicago area to add to his NH or BM fleet with the Cape Line Allied Full Cushion trucks and all. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Class GS gons (Bowser) in MW service Date: Sun, 3 Jan 99 20:07:44 -0500 From: Jerry On 1/3/99 4:05 PM, Brian Brooks (steelfan@ohio.net) wrote: >There are many modelers who would benefit from your research. Any chance we >can twist your collective arms to get at least some of your data on the web? Ken McCorry had shared with me an early version of the MoW roster for use on Keystone Crossings. Once they deem the project complete -- err, near complete because it is never complete -- if they are still willing to share it, I would place in it a database on KC just as I did with the Diesel Roster and the Cabin Car Roster. Would be searchable by class, car type, road number, etc. BTW: There is some one working on data entry of a steam roster for me, and I am working on Lightweight Passenger Cars. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] 1999 Convention & Potential Conflict Date: Sun, 3 Jan 99 20:58:57 -0500 From: Jerry A "heads up" on the 1999 convention in Altoona. It is in late August and was scheduled to coincide with the approximate 150th anniversary of the first revenue run into that town. However, it was also scheduled around Penn State's home football schedule. Since they're less than an hour away, fans book most of the hotel rooms in Altoona on football Saturday's. Being a rabid PSU fan myself -- and listmeister of a "PSUFootball" list -- (you can throw tomatos later!), I tend to keep an eye for PSU-related announcements. Well, there's one in the works that is said will be finalized within two weeks. Many parties -- media, players, etc. -- feel that PSU will have an excellent shot at the MNC (Mythical National Championship) next year. Besides having a strong Big Ten schedule -- the Big Ten went 5-0 in bowls this year -- they also have Miami. Now they are prepared to announce that they will be hosting the 1999 Pigskin Classic vs. Georgia Tech. Normally this game is played over Labor Day weekend. However, LD weekend falls late this year. That means it may be played over the same weekend as the PRRT&HS Convention!!! My suggestion: Book your rooms soon. Anyone up for The Station Inn in Cresson? Then again, let's all stay at Drew's place overlooking Horseshoe Curve! ;-) ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 20:53:24 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR GP-7 8512 On Sun, 3 Jan 1999, Wayne S. Betty wrote: > Correct - no original PRR GP7 had dynamic brakes. If by original, you mean the first batch they got, yes (the 8797-8806 batch); Some of the next batch had them (8503-8508) as well as 8554-8582. Note the photos in PDY-1, 69, 89, 100, PDY-5 p 32, etc... > RamblingReck@postoffice.worldnet.att.net wrote: > > > The info I've been able to find suggests that no PRR GP-7's were built > > with dynamics. Is this correct? Does anyone know if Pennsy added > > dynamics? Are there any photos available? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 20:24:33 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR GP-7 8512 Correct - no original PRR GP7 had dynamic brakes. cos RamblingReck@postoffice.worldnet.att.net wrote: > The info I've been able to find suggests that no PRR GP-7's were built > with dynamics. Is this correct? Does anyone know if Pennsy added > dynamics? Are there any photos available? > > Wayne S. Betty wrote: > > Howdy All: > The best that I can find - 8512 class ES15m, builders number 16767, > built 8.1952. Renumbered to 5892 class ERS15, no dynamic brakes, twin > 36 inch cooling fans, no steam heat, Train phone antenna installed. > Made it to Penn Central, was not included in the GP8 rebuild program - I > have no information on its disposition. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] 1999 Convention & Potential Conflict Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 22:59:18 -0500 Jerry, Of course you will be at the convention, and not watching a bunch of guys running around a field chasing a funny shaped ball! PS: If you go to Penn State......stop a see the work that has been done on the station at Lewistown. Looking good! Bill (at the end of the tracks ) "Till NS comes to town!" ---------- > From: Jerry > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: [PRR] 1999 Convention & Potential Conflict > Date: Sunday, January 03, 1999 8:58 PM > > A "heads up" on the 1999 convention in Altoona. It is in late August and > was scheduled to coincide with the approximate 150th anniversary of the > first revenue run into that town. > > However, it was also scheduled around Penn State's home football > schedule. Since they're less than an hour away, fans book most of the > hotel rooms in Altoona on football Saturday's. > > Being a rabid PSU fan myself -- and listmeister of a "PSUFootball" list > -- (you can throw tomatos later!), I tend to keep an eye for PSU-related > announcements. Well, there's one in the works that is said will be > finalized within two weeks. Many parties -- media, players, etc. -- feel > that PSU will have an excellent shot at the MNC (Mythical National > Championship) next year. Besides having a strong Big Ten schedule -- the > Big Ten went 5-0 in bowls this year -- they also have Miami. Now they are > prepared to announce that they will be hosting the 1999 Pigskin Classic > vs. Georgia Tech. Normally this game is played over Labor Day weekend. > However, LD weekend falls late this year. That means it may be played > over the same weekend as the PRRT&HS Convention!!! > > My suggestion: Book your rooms soon. Anyone up for The Station Inn in > Cresson? Then again, let's all stay at Drew's place overlooking Horseshoe > Curve! ;-) > > ----------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com > "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com > ----------------------------------------------- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 00:18:52 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Stewart RS3( reply correction) In a message dated 1/3/99 5:25:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, wsbcos@cris.com writes: << Howdy All: Sorry I can't answer to the use of dynamic brakes on the WM or LV, but the none of the PRR bought RS1's or RS3's or RSD4's had dynamic brakes. >> Walt and all, Let me clear something up before we all go off thinking that the P Co.'s RS-3's were not equipped with dynamic brakes. Yes, Virginia indeed some were equipped with dynamics and probably the most famous was the 8445 "hammerhead" (delivered 12/53 as a phase 1b) that was not only equipped with dynamics but also with a "Steam heat generator" or Steam generator. Other roads received hammer heads as well. Then there were the following units : 8435 thru 8438 built as phase 1a's 11/53 with dynamic brakes and originally assigned to the Northern Region. 8590 thru 8605 built as phase 3's 12/55 with dynamic brakes and originally assigned to Buckeye Region 8590 & 8591, Lake Region = 8596, Pittsburgh Region =8604 & 8505, Northern Region = 8592, 8593, 8594, 8599, 8600, and 8601, Philadelphia Region = 8597, 8598, 8602 and 8602, Chesapeake Region = 8595 << The RS3's originally had 4 classes: AS16 8914 - 1400 gal fuel AS16m 70 units - 1300 gal fuel AS16ms 43 units - 800 gal fuel and water AS16ms 8837 & 8856 800 gal fuel and 1200 gal water. Later, all non steam equipped units changed to class ARS16 No.'s 5400 to 5471. All steam equipped units changed to class ARS16s No.'s 5537 to 5584. The extra height on the short hood was to accommodate the large Vapor steam heat unit that the PRR ordered. >> Walt and all, the extra room was for the combination of steam heat generator and dynamic brakes. << The RS1 (class AS-10ams & AS-10as). One additional point on the RS3's all but the 8914 delivered with trainphone equipment.>> Walt is this a test or what, check you research there were at least 20 units that never had train phone induction systems (antenna mast). I would recommend that anyone wishing to know more on the PRR's RS units purchase the PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD Diesel Locomotive Pictorial Volume 1 by the late John D. Hahn, Jr. Published by Withers Publishing. I hope this clears up the record. <> Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 23:32:44 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR GP-7 8512 --------------F1781F45DFCA18532DB87826 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy All: Sorry about that - I only checked my Classification and Description of Locomotives and Tenders June 2, 1952. The list includes only the ES-15m and ES-15ms - they are listed without dynamic brakes. PRR continued to order and EMD continued to deliver GP7's into 1953. Just a thought - since the GP7 was not regularly assigned to road duties ( isn't that what all the new F7's where for), would they have been assigned to the same kind of service (yard and locals) or did they get some for helper service - but not assign an additional class, like the F3's of class EF-15 / EH-15. From my information ( the above listed Classification) all F3's & F7's (class EF-15a) had dynamic brakes (including the FP7's). They (the GP7's) all ended in the same classification (ERS15) and so I generalized and didn't think (!) to go any further. I didn't double check all my sources. I'll go stand in the corner now! cos wsbcos.com Derrick J Brashear wrote: > On Sun, 3 Jan 1999, Wayne S. Betty wrote: > > > Correct - no original PRR GP7 had dynamic brakes. > > If by original, you mean the first batch they got, yes (the 8797-8806 > batch); Some of the next batch had them (8503-8508) as well as 8554-8582. > > Note the photos in PDY-1, 69, 89, 100, PDY-5 p 32, etc... > > > RamblingReck@postoffice.worldnet.att.net wrote: > > > > > The info I've been able to find suggests that no PRR GP-7's were built > > > with dynamics. Is this correct? Does anyone know if Pennsy added > > > dynamics? Are there any photos available? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --------------F1781F45DFCA18532DB87826 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy All:
Sorry about that - I only checked my Classification and Description of Locomotives and Tenders June 2, 1952.   The list includes only the ES-15m and ES-15ms - they are listed without dynamic brakes.  PRR continued to order and EMD continued to deliver GP7's into 1953.
Just a thought - since the GP7 was not regularly assigned to road duties ( isn't that  what all the new F7's where for),  would they have been  assigned to the same kind of service (yard and locals) or did they get some for helper service - but not assign an additional class, like the F3's of class EF-15 / EH-15.  From my information ( the above listed Classification) all F3's & F7's (class EF-15a) had dynamic brakes (including the FP7's).  They (the GP7's) all ended in the same classification (ERS15) and so I generalized and didn't think (!) to go any further.
I didn't double check all my sources.   I'll go stand in the corner now!

cos
wsbcos.com
 
Derrick J Brashear wrote:

On Sun, 3 Jan 1999, Wayne S. Betty wrote:

> Correct - no original PRR GP7 had dynamic brakes.

If by original, you mean the first batch they got, yes (the 8797-8806
batch); Some of the next batch had them (8503-8508) as well as 8554-8582.

Note the photos in PDY-1, 69, 89, 100, PDY-5 p 32, etc...

> RamblingReck@postoffice.worldnet.att.net wrote:
>
> > The info I've been able to find suggests that no PRR GP-7's were built
> > with dynamics.  Is this correct?  Does anyone know if Pennsy added
> > dynamics?  Are there any photos available?

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  --------------F1781F45DFCA18532DB87826-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 07:08:13 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Class GS gons (Bowser) in MW service In a message dated 1/2/99 10:37:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, abbuchan@familyconnect.net writes: > > Within the past few days somebody posted a message regarding painting a > Bowser class GS gon in yellow w/ black CK logo for MW service. > That was me -- but that was also an inside joke. My operators know that if I've got a model car that's a real clunker, and won't track, I paint it yellow and put it into my track gang train. I wasn't serious about my repaint comment, but we have to question my sanity in acquiring a GS for a 1968 layout anyway. > Be careful here if you want to be perfectly prototypical. Ken McCorry, Paul > Backenstose and I have been collaborating on developing an all time list of > PRR non-revenue MW equipment for several years now. The list is incomplete > but growing all the time, one of these days it will be to the point of > completion that it can be published. As far as I can determine from a quick > scan of the list there are no class GS gons on the incomplete roster. If > there is any information out there on class GS gons in MW service please > advise. Thanx. > Checked my database, and I have no indication of GS's in MW service either. > Most all gons in MW service (1940s to the end) were classes GR, GRA, G-22 > and G-26. The later being modified as panelized turnout carriers. > My material DOES support the fact that G22's went to MW. Also, the panel turnout carriers were G26L. But were these rebuilt from G26C 65' mill gon rebuilds, or (less likely) from other surviving G26 subclasses? Another question -- sometime in the years of PK markings (1961-1968), passenger car conversions went from black roof to silver roof. Was there a coherent pattern here, or is this just some of the wonderful genetic drift characteristic of MoW paint jobs? For example, in my pix, between 492051-492371, all the heavyweight roofs are black. Between 492373-493004, they can be black or silver. From 493087-493963, they're all silver. Is this true in your research, too? Still another question -- some years ago, Bob Reid did a listing of Pullman cars and the MW number that each had assumed when it was converted. Was Bob's list on-target? Are you working with a similar list? Just curious, as heavyweight Pullmans seem to fascinate all -- even in a coat of yellow paint. Many thanks for the info you offered, and good luck with organizing MW data. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] 1999 Convention & Potential Conflict Date: Mon, 4 Jan 99 06:25:24 -0500 From: Jerry On 1/3/99 10:59 PM, Bill Knepper (boxcar46@nfdc.net) wrote: >Of course you will be at the convention, and not watching a bunch of guys >running around a field chasing a funny shaped ball! I WILL be at the convention from the getgo on Friday...and will stay through Sunday. Just not sure how I'm going to handle the afternoon on Saturday. Depends on how well the convention program is AND how Penn State handles ticket sales. (I am a season ticket holder with four seats.) ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 05:41:47 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Clipping the wings of (PRR's) Texas Eagle In a message dated 99-01-03 00:12:02 EST, dan@cwix.com writes: So it appears that this was an extremely short-lived PRR name train name, lasting perhaps four months. It would be interesting to know why the change was made -- perhaps confusion at St. Louis if, for >> < Over the weekend I had the enjoyment of visiting Ken McCorry's layout and receiving a personal tour (thanks again, Ken!). His layout is club-sized and he had modeled the PRR's Buffalo line circa 1962-68. He has now slid the timetable a little later and is modeling both PRR and PC on the line. What has always amazed me was that, besides modeling the Buffalo line from roughly Millersburg (Enola is staging) to just east of Buffalo, he includes many, many branch lines that are operational. So often we need to just stub end our branches as they meet the end of the layout. Ken is a master of design and found ways to keep these lines alive and hidden long enough to reach staging yards -- even visible in some cases. I'll probably miss one or two, but the layout includes the Shamokin Branch, Wilkes-Barre Branch, Elmira Branch, Bald Eagle Branch (currently not operational), and the Driftwood Secondary. His layout is so convoluted at first glance that it was hard for me to follow while visiting during an open house last spring with my two children in tow. Hence the reason for this visit: to unravel the layout and understand how it all fits together. The design makes tons of sense and I'm sure is a real joy for the 20 or so operators that gather once a month to run it. Ken is also on the verge of expansion. His new 24' by 32' addition will allow Keating Summit to rise even higher. Underneath, on the lower level, will be Harrisburg Passenger Station, freight yard, and locomotive facility. The Bald Eagle Branch will become active from the existing layout and will rejoin the main at a new rendering of Tyrone. A 9' Rockville Bridge will also be a highlight in the new area. If you get a chance, visit during an open house. Need more enticement? Watch for the April 1999 Model Railroader. Ken tells me the layout will be featured and should include the cover shot. Way to go Ken --- and the army of folks who help make this a wonderful layout! See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/mccorry.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CBlood59@aol.com Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:42:38 EST Subject: [PRR] How do I get off this list? Hello, I've lost the "welcome to the list" message. Will someone please tell me how to un-subscribe? Curt Blood ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 06:32:53 -0800 From: "Eugene E. Deimling" Subject: [PRR] H6sb Retirement About a month ago I asked a question about when H6sb ended their careers. While I don't have the definitive word, I did find one reference which I though I might share with the forum. According to Bill Caoroso, author of "Pennsylvania Railroads's Elmira Branch", the last two H6sb engines used on this branch operated until 1955. The last two of this class used on the Marion Branch were #3110 and 2846. Gene Deimling ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:21:52 EST Subject: [PRR] January must be PRR month Hey Yuze Gize, January must be Pennsy month in the magazines. I just got my January copy of Mainline Modeler and there is an excellent article on the PRR's Wilmington, DE passenger station by Earl T. Hackett. Some beautiful scale drawings and detail photo's. Then later this month as Model Railroading is late in hitting the news stands there will be another Pennsy article. It will be on the PRR X-45 50' single door box car. We must be in heaven 'cause I'm starting to see Keystones everywhere. 3^) Greg Martin Keep 'um Polished ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] How do I get off this list? Date: Mon, 4 Jan 99 11:14:37 -0500 From: Jerry On 1/4/99 9:42 AM, CBlood59@aol.com (CBlood59@aol.com) wrote: >I've lost the "welcome to the list" message. Will someone please tell me how >to un-subscribe? Send "unsubscribe prr-talk" to "listserv@dsop.com". >... >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". The footer of every message contains the above. The HELP file that results contains the instructions. For advanced users, most e-mail clients allow you to view the "long headers" of a message. Simple systems, like AOL, hide this to make things "easier" for the user. However, the long headers contain the following line: >List-Unsubscribe: I think I have sufficiently covered this subject for today! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Shadowlining From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 99 10:33:54 -0500 Some time ago I recall a conversation (perhaps on this list) in which mention was made of someone manufacturing decals for shadowlining HO passenger cars. Does anyone know who this might be? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Annual Sponsorship Message Date: Mon, 4 Jan 99 10:35:27 -0500 From: Jerry Once a year I send out a message about the services provided by my domains and how it is funded. My business, Desktop Solutions, owns the domains DSOP.COM and PENNSYRR.COM. Through these are served "Keystone Crossings" and a few other PRR-related web sites, and the lists PRR-Talk, PRRMO, PRR2000, Conrail-Talk, and Reading-Talk. My company absorbs a portion of the costs of maintaining a dedicated internet presence and expects to make up the rest (about 80%) from sponsorship opportunities. In 1998, we ran about as near to a break-even basis as is possible...which is all I ask for! Also during 1998, I entered the model railroad business as a division of Desktop Solutions. You know this business as "Merchandise Service". Proceeds through this business go toward online expansion and the like (more hard drives, faster connections, fault-tolerant spares, etc.). Now, how do I make up the other 80%? I have a sponsorship page that provides the nitty gritty at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/support.html 1. I do accept outright donations. Consider an annual donation akin to a magazine subscription. 2. Banner advertising -- For each page served from the PENNSYRR.COM, a random ad is pulled from the pool of ad sponsors and appears at the top of the page. 3. Web hosting -- Any business may be served from the DSOP.COM domain or their own domain, using our server. PRR-related businesses may be served from the PENNSYRR.COM domain and will be included in the banner ad pool at no additional cost. 4. List sponsorship -- Sponsoring a list gets the business the 2-3 line text message that appears in the footer of every message. (Lists that are not sponsored will have a "Merchandise Service" message by default.) There it is. Please contact me direct for more information if you'd like to help out. I appreciate the support. Special thanks to these long-time supporters: Digital Image Works and Union Station Products. Also to those list members who have referred businesses to us for web hosting. Thank you! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:34:38 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] ECW B60 (was MS60 Mail Storage Cars) Sorry to chime in so late, just got back to tacomputerr on which I can actually write answers! >On 12/28/98 1:51 PM, Terry Link (trlink@netcom.ca) wrote: > >>The old Bethlehem Car Works B60 plastic kit is now available from Eastern >>Car Works. Kit #1010. Walthers shows them in stock at $35.00 retail. Jerry asked: >Is that a complete kit? Or sans trucks, wheelsets, couplers, etc.? >Is it painted/lettered or unpainted? as others have said...with trucks, (although I think the casting is drilled lopsided with the axle holes too low on one side of one truck), wheels (which are often very poor quality and should be replaced with kadee or other quality metal wheels) w/o couplers, w/o decals, unpainted. I have both the old BCW and new ECW, and the BCW kit was by far better, in that it included very nice underbody detail and brake rigging which has been left out of the ECW kit. I was annoyed to find that the ECW kit cost more, with less detail and no decals, and flawed trucks. Both kits had seriously warped sides, although it appears the sides are now in styrene. I solved this with interior bracing on my 1st kit. Unlike the BCW M70b, there are no starter divots for the hand rail holes, so you just get to aim wherever. Still, very nice castings and it makes up into a quality car for a lot less than brass. Just add some details and weight and it looks/runs very very nicely! And, as has bween said...you need a FLEET of the suckers! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] RESULTS: Passenger Car Survey Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 13:21:47 -0500 > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry > Sent: Saturday, December 26, 1998 9:08 PM > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: [PRR] RESULTS: Passenger Car Survey > > > The third in our series of surveys on "PRR-Talk" dealt with passenger > cars (including head end equipment). There were 17 respondents of 280+ > subscribers. Here are the results. Where a request was made and a > solution is already available, I have made a notation in ALL CAPS. > > The winner, no contest, was the R50B reefer. Come on, someone make us a > fleet! > > HO SCALE: > > R50b - 6 votes > * Red Caboose quality/price point desired > * need a fleet of these! > * need almost as many as X29's > REA 50 ft steel express reefer -- 1 vote > * either riveted or welded Is this a 6100 series steel reefer? If so, it's on Branchline's list of future kits... (see http://www.branchline-trains.com/feature.htm) > BM85a -- 1 vote snip... > "Other Needs" notes: > * It would be nice if Eastern Car Works did an older heavyweight core it > that would be adaptable to the car sides concept that works so well for > the later pre-war and post-war cars. I can only hope that Branchline will come through with these.... > > * Parts to modify Bachmann P-70 ,PB-70,D-78 cars (for Bachmann cars only) > mostly the P-70 though. Hey Bachmann...sell your trucks separate! ya hear? I'll second this one! Rob > > > ----------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com > "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com > ----------------------------------------------- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on > special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] MO tower Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 13:10:33 -0500 When I was in Cresson during the Altoona Railfest last year ('98) there was a sign on the side of the PRR N5c they have there that showed the status of the towns fund raising efforts. It showed their goal and where they were currently. They showed their ultimate goal as rebuilding MO... Even before Conrail tore down the tower, the locals there said that it was too far gone to move and that they were planning on building a replica in their train watching park whenever they can raise the funds. If someone can find out more about the project (like their current fund raising status and where to send donations,) maybe people on the list can help out! Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of RICHARD > ADER > Sent: Sunday, December 27, 1998 12:43 PM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] MO tower > > > Hey gang, > Just had a wild idea that I shared with a friend > and we feel it worthy of mentioning. > Didn't the town of Cresson install a foundation/slab by the railfan area > in preparation for MO to be relocated for > preservation? Even though MO was structurally poor and had to be > destroyed > what is preventing it from being built anew? > If we as a group each put up 25.00 X 280 > (list members. Is that right Jerry?) would > definately cover materials if not the > entire construction costs. Considering donatins from local > establishments, it is not a far > fetched or unattainable endeavor. All > we would be doing is replacing a rotted > structure with a new one. I'm sure someone got > drawings and measurements for modeling purposes so lets model it 12" to > the foot > scale. (Not guage. haha) > Any takers? > Rich > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Digitrax and Bowser on > special during December. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: PRR Block Limit Stations in the 1920's Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:07:44 -0500 (EST) Al, many thanks for your very extensive email. I'm not ignoring it by not including parts of it ... it simply does not need much commenting on. > department in the field, Operations Planning at System, Employe and Labor > Relations Department at system (Note that PRR in the 1960s spelled Employe > with one "E", acceptable but not common) Yes, I found that most curious myself. I wonder if someone in PRR was trying to emphasize maleness by using this form?! The word is from the French, of course, and has an accent on the last "e" in "employe". Generally (for some reason lost to history), English has accepted French words in their feminine form, which is how the more common "employee" came to be. That form has the accent on the same e as the male form, i.e., on the second-last. > >And as you know, many executives today, particularly it seems on railroads, > >show precious little concern. > I agree again and always have - and that's why in my humble opinion this > country is going to hell in a hand basket. However, I would not just target > the railroads. Just for clarity, neither was I. This is the down side of large companies in general, be it Big Oil, Big Steel, the Big Three [auto], HMOs, Big Banks, or whoever. > As far as I'm concerned the Health Care Industry, especially > Allegheny in Philadelphia has just about topped everyone. What those > executives did in my opinion borders on criminal. Frankly I hope they swing. I have a brother-in-law-in-law living through this quite directly. Given the (generally Federal) research funds that "disappeared" to keep the operation running, these guys may be facing Federal charges real soon. But we're way off topic. :-) > >Anyway, enough polemics for one day. > Your right - enough polemics = debate, discussion, contention, row, > argument, quarrel, altercation, feud or what ever level your at ----ACTUALLY > FOR THE YEAR. [I was being intentionally excessive in choice of words, for purposes of sarcasm. I hope no offense was taken.] -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR weight/scale cars Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:48:21 -0500 I haven't found any PRR scale test car sets yet... I have a friend who runs a small decal business who already makes a few scale test car sets (for Erie-Lackawanna...) who says he'll be glad to produce a set if I can get him some good photos to work from. If anyone on the list has some photos that clearly show the lettering that I can borrow to give to him to work from I'd appreciate it! Thanks, Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Greg > Stone > Sent: Sunday, January 03, 1999 3:45 PM > To: PRR talk > Subject: [PRR] PRR weight/scale cars > > > Does anyone no of a decal or transfer company that produces > lettering for a > wieght/ scale car? > Greg Stone > PRRT&HS member > interested in any information or photos on the Renovo Yards > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] Branchline trains 50' box car kits.... Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 13:31:53 -0500 Hi all, Well the Branchine cars still aren't out yet but their page explains why... Also on their page is a photo of a production PRR painted carbody. (X44) Looks great to me! Hopefully they'll be out soon! http://www.branchline-trains.com/50'aar.htm Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 14:35:06 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR weight/scale cars On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, Robert Schoenberg wrote: > I haven't found any PRR scale test car sets yet... I have a friend who runs > a small decal business who already makes a few scale test car sets (for > Erie-Lackawanna...) who says he'll be glad to produce a set if I can get > him some good photos to work from. If anyone on the list has some photos > that clearly show the lettering that I can borrow to give to him to work > from I'd appreciate it! I assume what's in Color Guide 2 (p117-118) is not complete enough? -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: Re: [PRR] S Cars Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:50:52 -0500 snip. >There was an alternate S-mark on a few covered hoppers -- a black S on a >solid yellow rectangle. I don't know the history of this alternate, but an example is on >H30 498053 (p 113 of PRR Color Guide 2). Rick, Thanks for pointing that out. I'm not sure of this alternate symbol either. I just attribute it to the shennagans of the unstandard practices of the Standard Railroad of the World. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Leonard Avenue Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:46:16 -0500 -Date: Monday, January 04, 1999 3:08 PM Subject: PRR Leonard Avenue >Would you have an idea what role the PRR material facility at Leonard Avenue >in Columbus Ohio might have played in PRR days? This building and yard lay >just east of St. Clair Avenue shops on the north side of the PRR main, and was >switched trailing point west. Sorry Rick I can't help on this one. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] New Columnist at KC: Jim Six Date: Mon, 4 Jan 99 15:44:29 -0500 From: Jerry Following list members' prompting, I have invited recent subscriber Jim Six to become a "columnist" for "Keystone Crossings". Jim will be documenting and photographing his PRR modeling efforts. As each car is done, the text and images will be posted to the Modeling section of "KC" and announced to this list. Stay tuned for the first installment. Welcome aboard, Jim! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:40:18 EST Subject: [PRR] Erik Porch Erik, you signed the Keystone Crossings guest book, but didn't leave an address - are you on here ? Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] MO tower Date: Mon, 4 Jan 99 14:29:42 -0500 From: Jerry On 1/4/99 1:10 PM, Robert Schoenberg (robs@actel.com) wrote: >When I was in Cresson during the Altoona Railfest last year ('98) there was >a sign on the side of the PRR N5c they have there that showed the status of >the towns fund raising efforts. It showed their goal and where they were >currently. They showed their ultimate goal as rebuilding MO... Even >before Conrail tore down the tower, the locals there said that it was too >far gone to move and that they were planning on building a replica in their >train watching park whenever they can raise the funds. If someone can find >out more about the project (like their current fund raising status and where >to send donations,) maybe people on the list can help out! Or maybe PENNSYRR.COM can provide them with an official project status page on the Internet? Rob, if you or anyone tracks them down, point them to me, please! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:08:11 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] S Cars In a message dated 1/2/99 10:37:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, abbuchan@familyconnect.net writes: > Somebody posted a message within the last day asking about PRR cars with the > white "S" inside the white box. > Terry Stuart asked if it wasn't wrong on his Bowser kit. > First of all it was a yellow "S" inside a yellow box. The Bowser printing of > this on their X31A and the Middle Division decal sheet that includes this > symbol in white is incorrect. Also because of fading, light conditions, and > color shift in film, pictures of "S-cars" could give the impression that the > symbol was a dirty or off white. > > The symbol was applied to cars under the control of the material and stores > department that were dedicated to move company material around the system. > The cars included class X-29 and X31A box cars for all sorts of materials, H- > 30 cover hoppers for sand, and F45B flat cars for wheels. The cars were > typically painted freight car red, although some of the sand cars were > painted yellow. Tank cars (gray with black lettering in later years) were > also used to ship oil but they did not display the S symbol. All cars in > these types service were classified as non-revenue and were numbered within > the non-revenue block of car numbers > > Although a lot of material was shipped directly to the point of use by > manufacturers much of it was shipped to central warehouses and distributed > from there as required. The "S-cars" were moved from point to point in > revenue freight trains. In the mid 1950s the PRR had over 175,000 line items, > valued at over $70 million stored in over 130 storehouses, 100 "working > stocks" and 320 material yards and minor storage points. > I second all the above. There was an alternate S-mark on a few covered hoppers -- a black S on a solid yellow rectangle. I don't know the history of this alternate, but an example is on H30 498053 (p 113 of PRR Color Guide 2). The "standard" scheme is well-represented by X29 499668 (P110 of CG1). I believe that these S-car markings are only found on PK cars, so are in the years 1961-1968. Also, I'm shocked that not one individual on this list has stooped to use some version of "see that S-car go." Maybe that's 'cause this isn't snail mail . Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:08:13 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR Leonard Avenue In a message dated 1/2/99 10:37:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, abbuchan@familyconnect.net writes: > Although a lot of material was shipped directly to the point of use by > manufacturers much of it was shipped to central warehouses and distributed > from there as required. The "S-cars" were moved from point to point in > revenue freight trains. In the mid 1950s the PRR had over 175,000 line items, > valued at over $70 million stored in over 130 storehouses, 100 "working > stocks" and 320 material yards and minor storage points. > Al, Would you have an idea what role the PRR material facility at Leonard Avenue in Columbus Ohio might have played in PRR days? This building and yard lay just east of St. Clair Avenue shops on the north side of the PRR main, and was switched trailing point west. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:08:07 EST Subject: [PRR] Monon, PRR, IUS in Indianapolis (corrections) In a previous posting dealing with Indianapolis railroads, I implied that the Monon's terminal facilities were closer to downtown than Belt Junction. Referring to the Dolzalls' book Monon, The Hoosier Line, I can correct that. In 1896 the LNA&C (Louisville New Albany & Chicago, predecessor to the Monon) built new yards, roundhouse, and turntable AT Belt Junction. You can see a color photo of the roundhouse and a Loewy-design passenger-painted Monon F in 1959 on p. 184 of the above book. BTW, the structure color scheme appears to be a medium gray, possibly with white trim (check me on this, Monon fans). The year 1959 is significant because it's the last year Monon varnish ran into Indianapolis. Three more bits of info from Monon, The Hoosier Line: 1) The LNA&C (Monon) was extended from Belt Junction south to Massachusetts Avenue interlocking in 1888. This gave direct interchange to the Lake Erie &Western (Nickel Plate after 1922?) and the Cleveland Cincinnati Chicago & Indianapolis (later part of the Big Four/NYC). 2) The Pennsy's Vincennes Branch was originally a Monon predecessor's project to connect Gosport with Indy. Before W.W.I the PRR operated passenger trains from Indianapolis down to Gosport, and the LNA&C continued them south to Orleans and then down the branch to French Lick. The resort there (French Lick Springs) long featured a casino, which was a major passenger traffic generator for the Monon. 3) The Indianapolis Union Station elevation project was in the 1920's. I believe this makes it slightly later than similar projects in Dayton and elsewhere, but explains the "early art-deco" feel of the NYC-style train shed at IUS. IIRC, the first phase of art deco was set off by archaeological discoveries in Egypt circa 1925-27. This led to a craze (in US definitely. Europe too?) for all things Egyptian according to my late mother. I wish I knew enough about art and architecture to know what I'm talking about here. BTW, the Dolzalls' book includes photos by Louisville railfan photographers Jack Fravert and Tom Smart. Why am I not surprised? Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 16:25:34 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Drew's reply to [PRR] 1999 Convention & Potential Conflict Greetings to Jerry and the group, First off, I can view the main line just west of the brick yard from my home not Horseshoe Curve, which is about two track miles further west of me. Second, I have informed my wife, Debbie, that we'd be taking in borders in August. Third, I'm now looking for a motel room my self! :-) Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 08:58 PM 1/3/99 -0500, Jerry wrote: >A "heads up" on the 1999 convention in Altoona. It is in late August and >was scheduled to coincide with the approximate 150th anniversary of the >first revenue run into that town. Stuff deleted > >My suggestion: Book your rooms soon. Anyone up for The Station Inn in >Cresson? Then again, let's all stay at Drew's place overlooking Horseshoe >Curve! ;-) > >----------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 16:54:22 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Drew's reply to [PRR] 1999 Convention & Potential Conflict Greetings to Jerry and the group, First off, I can view the main line just west of the brick yard from my home not Horseshoe Curve, which is about two track miles further west of me. Second, I have informed my wife, Debbie, that we'd be taking in borders in August. Third, I'm now looking for a motel room my self! :-) Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 08:58 PM 1/3/99 -0500, Jerry wrote: >A "heads up" on the 1999 convention in Altoona. It is in late August and >was scheduled to coincide with the approximate 150th anniversary of the >first revenue run into that town. Stuff deleted > >My suggestion: Book your rooms soon. Anyone up for The Station Inn in >Cresson? Then again, let's all stay at Drew's place overlooking Horseshoe >Curve! ;-) > >----------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Laird, Bill" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR weight/scale cars Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 13:51:50 -0600 If I remember correctly there are a couple of photos of PRR weight/scale cars in one of the Pennsy Freight Car Color books (I don't remember if they were in vol 1 or 2 and I am at work and don't have access to my copies). Bill Laird > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Schoenberg [SMTP:robs@actel.com] > Sent: Monday, January 04, 1999 11:48 AM > To: Greg Stone > Cc: PRR-talk > Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR weight/scale cars > > I haven't found any PRR scale test car sets yet... I have a friend who > runs > a small decal business who already makes a few scale test car sets (for > Erie-Lackawanna...) who says he'll be glad to produce a set if I can get > him some good photos to work from. If anyone on the list has some photos > that clearly show the lettering that I can borrow to give to him to work > from I'd appreciate it! > > Thanks, > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Greg > > Stone > > Sent: Sunday, January 03, 1999 3:45 PM > > To: PRR talk > > Subject: [PRR] PRR weight/scale cars > > > > > > Does anyone no of a decal or transfer company that produces > > lettering for a > > wieght/ scale car? > > Greg Stone > > PRRT&HS member > > interested in any information or photos on the Renovo Yards > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: Re: [PRR] Class GS gons (Bowser) in MW service Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:41:43 -0500 Date: Monday, January 04, 1999 8:16 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Class GS gons (Bowser) in MW service Rick, snip> but we have to question my sanity in acquiring a GS for a 1968 layout >anyway. Not necessarily, I also have a 1968 layout (E&P Branch) and a quick scan of the Jan '68 ORER showed at least two (there may be one or two more) so I purchased two in the SK scheme. Now the probability of one or both of them showing up on the E&P is another story. >My material DOES support the fact that G22's went to MW. Yes several of us have several photos of G22's in MW service painted both grey and yellow. >Another question -- sometime in the years of PK markings (1961-1968), >passenger car conversions went from black roof to silver roof. Was there a >coherent pattern here, or is this just some of the wonderful genetic drift >characteristic of MoW paint jobs? For example, in my pix, between >492051-492371, all the heavyweight roofs are black. Between 492373-493004, >they can be black or silver. From 493087-493963, they're all silver. Is this >true in your research, too? Pretty much Most all if not all camp car converstions came out of the Renovo Shop. The reason for changing the roof color from black to silver after the program was well underway was the black absorbed too much heat and greatly added to the discomfort of the guys occupying the cars. Remember these cars usually sat out on barren sidetracks with the summer sun beating down all day. The silver acted more as a heat reflector. There is also data to substantiate that when the cars were first painted from the grey scheme to "Camp Car Yellow" the roof was painted yellow also, but this changed. On General Arrangement drawings I have for converting P70 coaches to wreck train Cable & Tool cars and Commissary-Riding & Locker cars dated 2-3-50 there is a note that states: "Painting for roof changed from Camp Car Yellow to Black compound asphaltum" dated 10-22-53. Al Westerfield and I had a talk about this yellow roof scheme when he was first putting out the class XL camp cars. Apparently nobody has ever seen a picture of an all yellow car to substantiate that any were actually painted that way. >Still another question -- some years ago, Bob Reid did a listing of Pullman >cars and the MW number that each had assumed when it was converted. Was Bob's >list on-target? >Are you working with a similar list? Just curious, as >heavyweight Pullmans seem to fascinate all -- even in a coat of yellow paint. Yes, we have that list and have incorporated it into the data. However, some people have stated they have found some errors in it. Which is not unusual nor does it bring any discredit to Bob or the overall accuracy of the list. Things happen after lists are made both in the shop before cars are rolled out and after they are on the road. Also newer cars sometimes assume numbers from older blocks of cars after they are retired. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TodEngine@aol.com Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 16:17:20 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] MO tower In a message dated 99-01-04 13:26:53 EST, you write: > When I was in Cresson during the Altoona Railfest last year ('98) there was > a sign on the side of the PRR N5c they have there that showed the status of > the towns fund raising efforts. It showed their goal and where they were > currently. They showed their ultimate goal as rebuilding MO... Even > before Conrail tore down the tower, the locals there said that it was too > far gone to move and that they were planning on building a replica in their > train watching park whenever they can raise the funds. If someone can find > out more about the project (like their current fund raising status and where > to send donations,) maybe people on the list can help out! Does anybody know the real story behind exactly why the tower fell apart? How was the move to be done? Did someone forget to disconnect something inside the builing and when the building was lifted it snagged? Was not enough reinforcing timbers & beams used? Did they bother to remove the interlocking machine beforehand? We dismantled and moved a wooden B&O tower last year, and used one helluva lot of beams, long switch ties, chains, braces, plywood, allthread etc. to hold the building together when we cut it in half. There was no problems with our techniques. I am of the opinion that had the people in charge of this project spent a little more time bracing MO that it would have survived the move. How much did they have raised? We moved UN, including bracing, cutting in half, lifting onto a flatcar and moving the car two miles over the CSX mains for less than $5,000. Rick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Garrett Rea" Subject: [PRR] Union Station Products Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 16:48:03 -0000 Jerry et al: Is Union in business? I have left phone messages regarding wanting to order from them but have not heard. The one car shown on their site looks great- I want to build a few of my own but they have not called back. Garrett Rea ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:57:43 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] ECW B-60 Hi All... Perhaps it would be a good idea if some of us wrote (or e-mailed if they have a site) to Eastern Car Works. To let then not only know what short comings the car has,but to also let them know what you like about it. Sometimes a manufacturer needs the feedback. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ODyard@aol.com Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:09:58 EST Subject: [PRR] The new Bachman K4 I also got a new Bachman K4. It has been redesigned. The center driver is sprung. The driver centers appear to be new with very lacy spokes that look great at low speeds. It does run as good as the Consol. It has the same motor as the consol and a separate fly wheel. It is very quite and drifts nicely when the power is shut off. It runs at least as good as a Proto 2k. The tender has a DCC plug. Installation is a 5 minute job at best. Last night I fit a prewar super structure to the new drive. I screwed up the original mechanism trying to requarter the drivers. Some minor modification was required as the new "frame" is longer in the front and shaped differently in the rear. A new location for the mounting screw into the super structure is also required. It fits after this work. I prefer the prewar look, not the "1361" look with those very out of place smoke box mounted markers. I left the cast pilot on. Don't know if I'll substitute the chicken coop one later. I darken my rods and valve gear with Polly scale engine black airbrushed on. Nothing fancy and it works. Just make sure there's no oil or lube on the rods. Remove it with lacquer thinner and a pipe cleaner. The Bachman cars now have all metal trucks that do roll nicely. If they were sold separately I'd replace the old skidding ones. Overall a big improvement! Don Murphy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWilson823@aol.com Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:39:24 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] 1999 Convention & Potential Conflict Anyone know what Altoona hotel is the convention site? In a message dated 1/3/99 9:23:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << A "heads up" on the 1999 convention in Altoona. It is in late August and was scheduled to coincide with the approximate 150th anniversary of the first revenue run into that town. However, it was also scheduled around Penn State's home football schedule. Since they're less than an hour away, fans book most of the hotel rooms in Altoona on football Saturday's. Being a rabid PSU fan myself -- and listmeister of a "PSUFootball" list -- (you can throw tomatos later!), I tend to keep an eye for PSU-related announcements. Well, there's one in the works that is said will be finalized within two weeks. Many parties -- media, players, etc. -- feel that PSU will have an excellent shot at the MNC (Mythical National Championship) next year. Besides having a strong Big Ten schedule -- the Big Ten went 5-0 in bowls this year -- they also have Miami. Now they are prepared to announce that they will be hosting the 1999 Pigskin Classic vs. Georgia Tech. Normally this game is played over Labor Day weekend. However, LD weekend falls late this year. That means it may be played over the same weekend as the PRRT&HS Convention!!! My suggestion: Book your rooms soon. Anyone up for The Station Inn in Cresson? Then again, let's all stay at Drew's place overlooking Horseshoe Curve! ;-) >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Freight car "RED" Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 18:18:24 -0800 I don't know how to do this exactly so I throw it out for comment. A source for true freight car "red" is right under our noses. I know there are different cars around still in freight car color and most everone will say that is a late pennsy freight car red. However the NX cabin car at the museum in altoona is still in MOW gray. The paint is peeling so that one can see the original "red" under it. Now I can't remember off the top of my head when MOW went from gray to yellow but it was still fairly early. If someone knows how to get a paint chip there analyzed we may have an acurate paint car red. Comments? Please don't jump on the term red. Call it what you will oxide, brown etc.. You know what I mean. Greg Stone PRRT&HS member Interested in any information or photos on Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 00:12:10 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Station Inn From: locoshop@juno.com Hello all, I was wondering if anyone has the number for Station Inn in Cresson? I do not have the phone number and was curious if anyone on the list did have it. Thanks. Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Garrett Rea" Subject: [PRR] Football and number plates Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 23:14:53 -0000 Gents- I come home to find a bunch (50) e-mail messages, some of them regarding of all things, football! This is PRR talk, not some Penn State football chat room!! Now if you were talking about Ohio State.....well- Living in Tennessee where football is not a game, it is a religion, hotel rooms become as rare as running GG1s are today. Working as a contactor for TVA a while back, getting hotel rooms in east Tennessee in the fall could be a chalenge. Good luck to all (camping??) and enjoy the convention. Garrett Rea PS how do non-PA residents get the "dummy" PRR number plates? A co-worker of mine and I want some. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:10:53 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight car "RED" All: I was involved in a project to refurbish hardware from and N6a cabin car for use on a static display of a reconstructed cabin. There were 24 layers of paint on the hardware and no less than 4 distinctly different "red" colors. Unless you can positively identify the paint from when the NX23 was an X23 you may use the wrong paint sample. Remember cabin colors did not alway correspond to freight car colors. During the early 1900's cabins were scarlet red almost identical to toludine red. Even following the "modern" freight car red adoption in 1953 cabins were painted a different shade of red. See Johnson's articles in the Keystone. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] 1999 Convention Hotel Date: Tue, 5 Jan 99 13:44:20 -0500 From: Jerry On 1/5/99 11:56 AM, chaslett@cse.l-3com.com (chaslett@cse.l-3com.com) wrote: >The Ramada Inn on the western outskirts of town is the >host site for the 1999 PRRT&HS convention. I just >called and verified the following info: > >Ramada Inn >Route 220 Plank Road Exit >Altoona, PA 16601 > >814-946-1631 (too bad it doesn't end in 1361 !) Carl: Thanks for providing this info. I'm booked! I had asked Walt Keely, who is organizing this event, where it was. He kept insisting it was at the Radison...which doesn't exist! Guess young Internet guys like me just don't pass muster to get into the "Walt Keely Social Club". In all seriousness, Walt does a great job in organizing these events. They do take a lot of work. However, the older generation that is running the society does need to loosen their collars a bit. As for the convention, in late July or early August I will begin polling for who all is going. Maybe we can arrange a group lunch or outing of some sort. I tentatively will have a table in the dealer room. I will be arriving first thing Friday morning. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 08:43:04 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] Station Inn Phone Number Greetings to Jeremy and the group, The Station Inn Bread and Breakfast's phone number is 814-886-4757. Their address is 827 Front Street, Cresson, PA, 16630 At 12:12 AM 1/5/99 -0600, locoshop@juno.com wrote: >Hello all, > >I was wondering if anyone has the number for Station Inn in Cresson? I >do not have the phone number and was curious if anyone on the list did >have it. Thanks. > >Jeremy Helms >Omaha, Nebraska >locoshop@juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Jan 99 9:49:04 EST From: Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR weight/scale cars I also believe the real thing sits outside the old museum facilty in Altoona. You can get someone to shoots photos of the real thing. Kris ------------- Original Text From: "Laird, Bill" , on 1/4/99 2:51 PM: If I remember correctly there are a couple of photos of PRR weight/scale cars in one of the Pennsy Freight Car Color books (I don't remember if they were in vol 1 or 2 and I am at work and don't have access to my copies). Bill Laird > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Schoenberg [SMTP:robs@actel.com] > Sent: Monday, January 04, 1999 11:48 AM > To: Greg Stone > Cc: PRR-talk > Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR weight/scale cars > > I haven't found any PRR scale test car sets yet... I have a friend who > runs > a small decal business who already makes a few scale test car sets (for > Erie-Lackawanna...) who says he'll be glad to produce a set if I can get > him some good photos to work from. If anyone on the list has some photos > that clearly show the lettering that I can borrow to give to him to work > from I'd appreciate it! > > Thanks, > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Greg > > Stone > > Sent: Sunday, January 03, 1999 3:45 PM > > To: PRR talk > > Subject: [PRR] PRR weight/scale cars > > > > > > Does anyone no of a decal or transfer company that produces > > lettering for a > > wieght/ scale car? > > Greg Stone > > PRRT&HS member > > interested in any information or photos on the Renovo Yards > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] List Dupes Date: Tue, 5 Jan 99 12:03:30 -0500 From: Jerry There may/will be some dupes today. My mail server crashed and I had to restore from a backup from yesterday. RELATED: Subscribers from JUNO.COM are a consistent bouncing problem. My advice: Get a real Internet account! I may actually prevent JUNO.COM addresses from subscribing. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 05 Jan 99 11:08:02 EST From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] The new Bachman K4 Don: Was the improvements to the K-4 just to the mechanism or were there cosmetic improvements to the body shell? I have 3 Bachmann K-4's which were the first runs. Although Bachmann did a very good job in capturing the appearance of the K-4, I noticed that the belpaire boiler was not boxy enough. I do not know if you have noticed this. On the other hand, I might be too picky. I have been known for that! Ted Andrews Indianapolis, IN ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: [PRR] The new Bachman K4 Author: ODyard@aol.com at Internet Date: 1/4/99 9:53 PM I also got a new Bachman K4. It has been redesigned. The center driver is sprung. The driver centers appear to be new with very lacy spokes that look great at low speeds. It does run as good as the Consol. It has the same motor as the consol and a separate fly wheel. It is very quite and drifts nicely when the power is shut off. It runs at least as good as a Proto 2k. The tender has a DCC plug. Installation is a 5 minute job at best. Last night I fit a prewar super structure to the new drive. I screwed up the original mechanism trying to requarter the drivers. Some minor modification was required as the new "frame" is longer in the front and shaped differently in the rear. A new location for the mounting screw into the super structure is also required. It fits after this work. I prefer the prewar look, not the "1361" look with those very out of place smoke box mounted markers. I left the cast pilot on. Don't know if I'll substitute the chicken coop one later. I darken my rods and valve gear with Polly scale engine black airbrushed on. Nothing fancy and it works. Just make sure there's no oil or lube on the rods. Remove it with lacquer thinner and a pipe cleaner. The Bachman cars now have all metal trucks that do roll nicely. If they were sold separately I'd replace the old skidding ones. Overall a big improvement! Don Murphy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose 4/3/1 in PRR livery Date: Tue, 5 Jan 99 12:30:46 -0500 From: Jerry I contacted Red Caboose about the rumor of their doing the 4/3/1 car in PRR livery. Here is their response: >The PRR 4/3/1 40' riveted car is planned for late Feb. I am now in need >of photos (hopefully in the original paint scheme). Would very much like to >see photos of all versions of the car. This is the 1955+ production car. Many >thanks for any help to get it right. If anyone has photos and can scan them, please send them to me at "webmaster@dsop.com". If there are photos in common books, please provide references. Thanks. BTW: What PRR class would this be? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Electrics in Harrisburg Date: Tue, 5 Jan 99 12:26:08 -0500 From: Jerry Been having an offline discussion with Bruce Smith. I'd like to throw one out to the masses: For my 1954 modeling, what power would more prevalent on freight trains Harrisburg heading eastbound: GG-1 P ? (include subclass) or Diesel (which classes -- F3, F7, GP7, etc.) There were very few freights going through Harrisburg; most were on the west side of the river -- Enola, A&S, etc. I'm modeling the east side, area of the passenger station and loco facility -- where the electric to diesel/steam swapouts would've taken place. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: chaslett@cse.l-3com.com Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 11:56:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] 1999 Convention & Potential Conflict Hello to all. The Ramada Inn on the western outskirts of town is the host site for the 1999 PRRT&HS convention. I just called and verified the following info: Ramada Inn Route 220 Plank Road Exit Altoona, PA 16601 814-946-1631 (too bad it doesn't end in 1361 !) Our convention rate for rooms is a flat $70, plus tax (@ 7% total, should be $74.90 per room) no matter if it is a single, double, triple, or quad. Be sure to mention that you are with the PRRT&HS to get this rate when making reservations. The hotel has 220 rooms, 9 meeting rooms, accepts all major cards more info about the hotel at: http://www.ramada.com/ctg/cgi-bin/Ramada/hotel_frame/00007115.0025.0006?city=Altoona&state=PA&country=US For those interested, I can provide info on the other motels in that immediate area or in the greater Altoona area, but it will take a few days to research. Offhand, I can tell you that the Conrail crews stay over at the Motel 6, less than a mile from the Ramada. With so much rail traffic going through, the sign-in sheets are kept right up on the counter! There are also Holiday Inn, Comfort Inn, and others within 2-3 miles distance. Carl Haslett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: chaslett@cse.l-3com.com Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 12:28:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Station Inn Hello to Jeremy and all, The Station Inn phone # is 814-886-9914 . Address: 827 Front Street, Cresson PA Map showing some rail detail for effect: http://www.salesleadsusa.com/cgi-bin/map/mqcustomconnect.cgi?link=map&icontitles=yes&POI1iconid=31&POI1name=STATION+INN&level=9&POI1streetaddress=827+FRONT+ST&POI1city=CRESSON&POI1state=PA Carl Haslett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Follow up on my Bachman k-4 inquiry From: fredrea@juno.com (Fred G Rea) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 14:39:15 EST Thanks to all who responded to my inquiry about the new K-4 and their coaches. Several owners of the new K-4 gave me a lot of info (all praise!). Thanks. Less luck on the passenger cars, particularly the trucks. One suggestion was try KD wheel sets. I have them on my Rivarossi cars so I may try them on the Bachmans. I did not think of that as the existing wheels are metal. Has any one done that? The new pullman trucks run great but lack the side frame detail of the 4 year old Combine Diner and Coach. To try get to the heart of it I called Bachman. Talked to Bob in the customer service Dept. He said they have had at least four runs of the original cars. Each changed a little and he knows the newer ones roll as well as the pullmans. Couldn't say if they have the nice side frames. His advice, check them out carefully at a hobby shop. All the runs are the same stock #s so be careful mail ordering. Fred Rea NMRA PRRH&TS ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Electrics in Harrisburg Date: Tue, 5 Jan 99 15:20:18 -0500 From: Jerry On 1/5/99 3:00 PM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >On the subject of P5 sublasses...there were 139 GG-1s (however, most of the >GG-1s were in passenger service) vs 91 P5 locomotives. Two, #4700 and 4791 >were the prototype P5s but 4791 was scrapped in 1951 and so a P5 sighting >would be very rare. There was only one P5b, #4702, and that loco stuck >very close to Baltimore. Therefore, the P5a would be the most likely >subclass...now as to boxcab vs modified P5a...in 1954 there were 59 boxcabs >and 29 modified including 4770 which was rebuilt from a wrecked boxcab in >1945 as the only welded P5a modified. Thus you should have a ratio of >boxcabs to modifieds of about 2:1, and remember that if paired, the >modified should be in the lead for safety! Excellent response! Any idea how many G's were assigned to freight service so we can build a better ratio...if P5a boxcabs to P5a modifieds is 2:1, what is the ratio of G's in freight service to P5x's? Was a G in freight service a rarity? Any other electrics "common" in through freight service in Harrisburg circa 1954, realizing that elecs would come on at Hbg.? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:00:57 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Electrics in Harrisburg >Been having an offline discussion with Bruce Smith. I'd like to throw one >out to the masses: > >For my 1954 modeling, what power would more prevalent on freight trains >Harrisburg heading eastbound: > GG-1 > P ? (include subclass) > or Diesel (which classes -- F3, F7, GP7, etc.) > On the subject of P5 sublasses...there were 139 GG-1s (however, most of the GG-1s were in passenger service) vs 91 P5 locomotives. Two, #4700 and 4791 were the prototype P5s but 4791 was scrapped in 1951 and so a P5 sighting would be very rare. There was only one P5b, #4702, and that loco stuck very close to Baltimore. Therefore, the P5a would be the most likely subclass...now as to boxcab vs modified P5a...in 1954 there were 59 boxcabs and 29 modified including 4770 which was rebuilt from a wrecked boxcab in 1945 as the only welded P5a modified. Thus you should have a ratio of boxcabs to modifieds of about 2:1, and remember that if paired, the modified should be in the lead for safety! I see from from Rail Classics' web site that they plan on releasing the P5, and the implication is that most/all subclasses will be represented. I wonder when, and in what ratios the locos will be released?! Happy Rails Bruce Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose 4/3/1 in PRR livery From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 99 14:41:30 -0500 Jerry said: I contacted Red Caboose about the rumor of their doing the 4/3/1 car in PRR livery. Here is their response: >The PRR 4/3/1 40' riveted car is planned for late Feb. I am now in need >of photos (hopefully in the original paint scheme). Would very much like to >see photos of all versions of the car. This is the 1955+ production car. Many >thanks for any help to get it right. If anyone has photos and can scan them, please send them to me at "webmaster@dsop.com". If there are photos in common books, please provide references. Thanks. BTW: What PRR class would this be? - ---------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry, Before anyone could answer what PRR class is would be, they would have to know what kind of roof and what kind and size door does it have? regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas Fry" Subject: [PRR] infromation sites Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:27:28 -0500 Hey Gang crews: Here are a few site that may help ans some of the questions or at least a good place to find ans. www.apta.com/info/comps.htm--- this is the master list of anyone who works on trains.... www.microscale.com/decal_sheets -- the decal man www.uprr.com/uprr --- great pictures of rebuild shops, paint shops, equipment... www.plantrailcar.com -- sell and broker of bigboy trains, used www.freightworld.com --- link to cars, loco etc around the world... many of these will ans , questions from all the rivet counters -- at worst its fun.. tom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Follow up on my Bachman k-4 inquiry From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 99 15:58:18 -0500 Fred, You aren't a desendent of Sam Rea (president of the PRR and responsible, when VP of Engineering, for the electrification), are you? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas Fry" Subject: [PRR] Columbia PA railroad history Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:40:40 -0500 Hey Work crews: I'm still digging up the History on the yards etc in Columbia Pa, a little hard , because I;m in SC.. But the columbia Historic Preservation Society has a web page and some old RR people on the staff, and 120 yrs of old newpapers and picture on Microfilm... The Page is www.columbiahistoric.rtide.com/RAILROAD.htm... I belive I have located the person who has all the historic files from the RR, my brother lives in Columbia and will contact him... I 'm willing to fly there and copy any thing they let me and load it to a web site or CD... I will keep you all posted.. tdf ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:03:02 -0500 (EST) From: bobr@tridelta.com (Bob Rothrock) Subject: Re: [PRR] O scale modelers At 06:27 PM 12/24/98 -0800, Greg Stone wrote: >Are there any O scale modelers on this list, besides myself? > >Greg Stone >PRRT&HS member >interested in any photos or info on the Renovo Yards > > Greg: Me, for one...I was away & hence, didn't reply earlier. Bob Rothrock ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:21:17 -0500 (EST) From: bobr@tridelta.com (Bob Rothrock) Subject: Re: [PRR] So What Did Everyone Get? At 09:55 AM 12/25/98 -0500, Jerry wrote: >It's Christmas Day -- with apologies to the non-Christians on the list -- >what did everyone get from Santa (that pertains to our mutual subject >matter)? > - An Atlas 2-rail O scale SW-9. Very impressive looking, a good runner, and a great value for the $. Bob Rothrock ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 20:06:39 EST Subject: [PRR] Bachmann wheel replacement (was Follow up on my Bachman In a message dated 1/5/99 1:56:28 PM Central Standard Time, fredrea@juno.com writes: << Less luck on the passenger cars, particularly the trucks. One suggestion was try KD wheel sets. I have them on my Rivarossi cars so I may try them on the Bachmans. I did not think of that as the existing wheels are metal. >> I can only say that replacing the wheels in a Rivarossi 6-axle Pullman truck with Intermountain 36" metal wheels makes one of the smoothest running trucks I have ever experienced. I've been operating my Bachmann P70s and PB70s as-is. Will have to try the Intermountain wheels as replacements there as well. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:38:56 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose 4/3/1 in PRR livery In a message dated 1/5/99 2:56:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, asmiller@mail11.mitre.org writes: > BTW: What PRR class would this be? > X43C ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight car "RED" Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:04:21 -0500 Greg, Your idea of using a paint sample is good, but how are you going to get one that has not faded? Remember paint back then was not as good as it is today. It chalked and faded fast, just like the auto's did ! Bill ---------- > From: Greg Stone > To: PRR talk > Subject: [PRR] Freight car "RED" > Date: Monday, January 04, 1999 9:18 PM > > I don't know how to do this exactly so I throw it out for comment. A source > for true freight car "red" is right under our noses. I know there are > different cars around still in freight car color and most everone will say > that is a late pennsy freight car red. However the NX cabin car at the > museum in altoona is still in MOW gray. The paint is peeling so that one can > see the original "red" under it. Now I can't remember off the top of my head > when MOW went from gray to yellow but it was still fairly early. If someone > knows how to get a paint chip there analyzed we may have an acurate paint > car red. > Comments? > Please don't jump on the term red. Call it what you will oxide, brown etc.. > You know what I mean. > Greg Stone > PRRT&HS member > Interested in any information or photos on Renovo Yards > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk@aol.com Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 21:56:25 EST Subject: [PRR] Underground Railway Press Catalog of Scale Plans Today I received the catalog from Underground Railway Press. These guys advertise in the modelling magazines and have a catalog of scale plans. I finally gave in to my curiosity and ordered it. Sadly, there is not a whole lot for PRR modellers. The following PRR plans are available from them: PRR WJ&S branch wooden MU car #6723 PRR EMD E8A #5837 PRR EMD E7B #5900 PRR Franckville, PA Freight House PRR 120 Ton High Lift Car Dumper (Sandusky, OH) Other things they have a lot of: narrow gauge (including EBT and Mt. Gretna), trolleys, steel industry drawings (including a Hulett Ore Unloader), boats (car floats, tow boats, steamboats, ferries), B&O buildings, and C&O buildings. Hope this is helpful (or at least interesting) to some of you. John Keel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] RE: RE: Freight car red fading Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 20:48:54 -0800 Since the paint is under the gray paint I don't believe it has faded much. I took a up close photo of it ,and also noted when I was there that the red was surprisingly darker than I expected. It was not so much brown as photos of later years. As far as analyzing, I wonder if a chemist could analyze the content, possibly with gas chromatography or the like. When paint stores analyze a chip the computer calculates what formula is needed to add to the existing primary base white. This varies with base types and oil Vs latex etc. I think it would be great to get this type of analysis. However what would really be interesting would be to get a chemical analysis of what was actually in the original paint formula. With an original formula a paint could be made for restoration of cars that would actually fade the correct colors. This would also be interesting from a historical perspective. Modelers of course will benefit also! Greg Stone PRRT&HS member interested in any information or photos on the RENOVO YARDS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 00:38:35 EST Subject: [PRR] Nice Color Pic of T-1 #6610 Hi Gang, Bud Laws has posted another excellent color photo to "alt.binaries.pictures.rail." It's one of the early T's with the 'Buick Portholes', fresh paint, and recently bathed. A bunch of head-end stuff and many HW's in tow. Photo also includes a ton of telegraph poles, in the background, with cross-members galore....something you rarely see anymore. Anyone have any idea where this photo may have been taken? I've spoken with Bud, and he goes around to all the train shows and buys these photographs and then posts many of them to "alt.binaries.pictures.rail" and others. Someone recently mentioned some of his other stuff, a short time ago, here on PRR-Talk and I too feel they are worth taking a look. Link is provided below: alt.binaries.pictures.rail (unread) (Photo posting date is : 1/5/99, Titled: PRR Steam #6610, from budl@pdq.net) Regards, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 01:20:54 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose 40' AAR Box Car Jerry, Andy and all, I saw a sample of the Red Caboose AAR 40' single door box car in Rosemont (Chicago) in October. It is a retooled version of the old Front Range kit. For those who either was not really into accurate freight car modeling in the late 80's and early 90's then let me explain what they will offer us. We will have fairly accurate 40' foot box car with an 8' door retooled hardware including the underframe. The roof walk was also retooled. The basic car has 4/3/1 dreadnaught end, a Stanray diagonal panel roof, and 10 panel sides. This make it a stand in for the X-43C "as is" out of the box, later variations of the X-43C will need a sill reinforcement under the door opening. With modifications it can make into the X-29d and later variations providing the roof is still separate part as with the Front Range kit. This allows you to "raise" the roof to simulate the overhanging eve on the roof, you will need to fill the space in the end and add a 1x2 styrene for the end eve. The only draw back that I could see to the kit were the shape of the dreadnaught more closely matches the later version that appeared on Pennsy cars with X-46 production. The "rolling pin shape" is less pronounced. Now let's cross our fingers that Red Caboose also has the dies for the 6 foot door so we can reproduce the X-29b and the X-43, 43a, and 43b by adding a 7 foot door to the opening. If the ends torque you a bit, well just hold your breath and wait for the Branchline kit and as for Dick at C&BT Shops well he should quit while he's ahead. The Red Caboose kit is a great resurrection of a good kit. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 02:07:20 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: RE: Freight car red fading Greg, one thing to remember is that under the mow gray or yellow is a faded red paint not a fresh new red paint job. If a car hasn't been sandblasted they were usually washed with an alkaline bath to remove any dead paint and dirt grease etc. rust spots are primed and the car is painted with the new top coat. Chances are the red paint you are seeing is not fresh. Just a thought, Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose 40' AAR Box Car From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 99 08:31:26 -0500 Greg Martin said (in part): ... Now let's cross our fingers that Red Caboose also has the dies for the 6 foot door so we can reproduce the X-29b and the X-43, 43a, and 43b by adding a 7 foot door to the opening. If the ends torque you a bit, well just hold your breath and wait for the Branchline kit and as for Dick at C&BT Shops well he should quit while he's ahead. The Red Caboose kit is a great resurrection of a good kit. Greg Martin =============== Greg, The most outstanding feature of the X29b (and d) was the inverted angle floor. It was a necessary feature to mount the new wide body on the older narrow X-29 frame. The X-43, being an all new car, does not have this. I don't believe that the RC box car would do for an X29b. Dick still has a market for his C&BT X29-b's and d's when they ever appear. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Laird, Bill" Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg electrics Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:49:58 -0600 A couple of days ago Jerry had a post regarding what motors would have been prevlant hauling freight into, outof, and through Harrisburg yard (as opposed to Enola). I believe he also asked what type of freight GG1's would typically haul. Looking through Volkmer's Pennsy Electric Years last night I noted the following: Pg 22, 02-28-60, two P-5a boxcabs with a P-5a modified on the point of a coal extra out of Harrisburg yard. Pg 24, notes that GG1's were good on light weight freight (such as Truc-Train service) but bad on heavy drags. Pg 30, 02-17-60, pair of E-2b's and a P-5a on a freight out of Harrisburg yard. Pg 33, 01-29-61, E-44 on a coal train eastbound out of Harrisburg yard. Pg 39, reference to B-1 assigned to Harrisburg as the station switcher. Pg 45, 01-28-61, two E-44's running light having dropped their freight at Harrisburg yard. Pg 50, reference to Harrisburg yard used by through coal, ore, and Truc-Train freights to avoid congestion at Enola, typically pulled by P-5a's (box and modified) and E-2b's. That was all I found with specific references to Harrisburg yard or type of freight hauled by GG1's. Lots of other pictures on the Hbg to Philly main but without specific reference to Harrisburg yard or Enola as the destination/origination. So Jerry, looks like rules of thumb are P-5a's (boxcab and modified), E-44's, and E-2b's on heavy drags through Harrisburg yard, a B-1 station switcher, and GG1's on the Hbg-Philly main with light freight. Bill Laird ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:41:49 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose 40' AAR Box Car And Andy Replied: =============================================================== Greg, The most outstanding feature of the X29b (and d) was the inverted angle floor. It was a necessary feature to mount the new wide body on the older narrow X-29 frame. The X-43, being an all new car, does not have this. I don't believe that the RC box car would do for an X29b. Dick still has a market for his C&BT X29-b's and d's when they ever appear. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ============================================================== Andy and all, I have already written articles on how to correct the Front Range underframe to match the Pennsy X-29b and the X-29D and you would have to do the same for all the X-29 subclasses. I have seen the test shots of the C&BT Shops kit at Rosemont and I think that if there is a market for this kit is very small. I could understand it if the tooling was on a par with ACCURAIL, but alas, it is not. Plus the sample I saw of the X-29D, it did not have the overhanging eve cut in it. If this is the way that it is going to be released, why buy it. Look it cost the same amount to tool something correctly as it does to tool it wrong and fix it or suffer the consequences. Believe me, the correction to the underframe is much easier than raising the roof. We deserve the best. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas Fry" Subject: [PRR] the big RED problem Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:21:54 -0500 Hey: If anyone knows the manuf. of any PRR cab or cars... I will track down the color mix from the orginal specs... tdf ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] PRR GG1 4930 (fwd) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:22:15 -0500 (EST) Guys: I received a question that, doubtless, one of the crowd should be able to answer off the top of their head ... Oh, and a reply to Bill Strassner's accusation of erronicity is forthcoming... -- Mark Steve Demkin scrivit: > From SDEMKIN@dcccnet.dccc.edu Wed Jan 6 02:46:23 1999 > Message-Id: > X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 > Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 02:44:03 -0500 > From: Steve Demkin > To: bejm@eeg.ccf.org > Subject: PRR GG1 4930 > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain > Content-Disposition: inline > > 4930 was in a wreck somewhere btwn Washington and Boston (duh!), > but where, when, how? Also, what was her fate -- scrapped > immediately or restored to service? Someone told me the wreck may have > been in the Philly area (Frankfort Junction)? Please help. Thanks! - SRD > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:48:45 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Electrics in Harrisburg Jerry, You asked: >Any idea how many G's were assigned to freight service so we can build a >better ratio...if P5a boxcabs to P5a modifieds is 2:1, what is the ratio >of G's in freight service to P5x's? Immediately post WWII, units 4801-4857 were regeared from 100 mph to 90 mph for freight service, although maintaining steam boilers for mail train and occ. passenger use. Thus 57 units were "freight" and 82 units were "passenger", but these are not absolute use restrictions. An approximate answer to your question would be 2 GG-1s for every 3 P5a's. It would not be unreasonable to focus locomotive types on certain trains. For example, the GG-1 would be rare on a coal drag, but more commonly applied to a hotshot perishable or mail train (which in turn would be more likely to use the passenger main instead of the A&S, and might actually appear at Harrisburg ). On the flip side, some P5's retained steam boilers as well, and could be seen on the occaisional passenger run (by 1954, probably restricted to fan trips?). Other locomotives I haven't mentioned before are the eight O-1 class (-,a,b,c) passenger motors which I will have to check on for scrapping dates, but I believe that they may have been in service in '54. These were most often used double headed (very slippery) and could only be paired with their other sub-classmate. I have seen photos of them on the upper level of 30th street station, and so would have to assume that they might have ventured to Harrisburg on occaision. Then, there is the question of the R-1, the PRR's only "northern" wheel arrangement, and the GG-1's competitor in the "great locomotive contest". I have no data to indicate that this locomotive ever traveled to Harrisburg, but it remained in service at this time, and logically could have. Finally (as I mentioned in our private emails) you will need a small fleet of B-1 "rats" to work Harrisburg station and the associated coach yard. >Was a G in freight service a rarity? No >Any other electrics "common" in through freight service in Harrisburg >circa 1954, realizing that elecs would come on at Hbg.? You could also throw in the six E2b (1951, 1953), two (or 3?) E3b (1951) two (or 3?) E3c (1951) motors, the single DD-1 (second type), and the three L6/L6a motors. I'm not sure the L6 or DD-1 motors EVER ventured to Harrisburg, but the E2/E3 motors certainly did. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:25:45 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR GG1 4930 (fwd) >Guys: >I received a question that, doubtless, one of the crowd should be able >to answer off the top of their head ... >> From: Steve Demkin >> 4930 was in a wreck somewhere btwn Washington and Boston (duh!), >> but where, when, how? Is this the (in)famous "jaws" wreck? If so, I believe it happened on the NEC main in N.J. in the early '80s (81 or 82?) when an Amtrak GG-1 "ate" a work train at speed. I believe I have photos of the loco at the Wilmington shops afterwards with a work train car imbedded between the frame and body that I'll have to dig out and verify. Based on the damage and date, I think she was scrapped w/o returning to service. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:11:21 EST Subject: [PRR] Billboard Reefers and Beer In a message dated 1/5/99 7:29:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, wooddale@bellsouth.net writes: > Billboard reefers were outlawed in the late 1930s. I think the date is 1938; this was an ICC action against a situation where one company's product might be shipped in a car advertising his competitor. > Beer cars vanished quickly after the billboards were > outlawed, although Miller and Hamms operated 50' cars in the 60s and early > 70s. A question for all my beer-reefer-loving friends: did beer reefers disappear during prohibition (1922-1933?). If so, then the life of steel-underframe billboard beer reefers must have been short - 1933 through 1938. Of course, if the car is leased to the exclusive use of the brewing company, I don't think billboarding/display advertising is outlawed at all. An allied yarn -- according to my logistics profs, Anheuser-Busch has always been one of the great "railroad" breweries. Before the 1960s, A-B's gigantic old facility in St. Louis shipped its output tonnage to all US points, by rail. Witness the Manufacturers Railway, owned by A-B. MRS's two jobs were to 1. Switch the plant with America's most-waxed Alco switchers (shades of UPS' package cars) and 2. supply insulated box cars (RBL's) for cases of Budweiser, etc. The strategic planners at Busch saw a huge increase in sales coming with the 1960s -- which meant more capacity was needed, but only in the summer. Consequently, A-B designed economical-sized satellite breweries (among them Columbus, OH, New Orleans, and somewhere in New Hampshire IIRC) that had the capacity to handle local consumption for most of the year. The summer increase would come from the old plant in St. Louis. What this means for modelers of the 60s and later is that there was a summer "beer rush." An outsized movement of RBL's would radiate out from Saint Louis, some carrying MRS reporting marks. Note that these carloads PROBABLY go primarily to the satellite breweries for reshipment by truck, but could go directly to large beer distributorships. And these are "hot" cars; they must be delivered before the load warms up. Specifically, the PRR Panhandle line from St. Louis was a major summertime carrier for A-B carloads to eastern states. I frequently saw MRS cars passing through Indianapolis, Dayton, and Columbus. Rick Tipton Who in 1977 publicly stated beer reefers were overrepresented on many model railroads (and has caught grief about it ever since). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:33:37 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: RE: Freight car red fading ***When The ARHS was repainting the BAR F units into CNJ blue and tangerine, my best pal got his uncle at DuPont to research the records, and he came up with the exact formula(e) for re-creating those 4 decade old Imron (?) Paints, so they could be made anew. Possibly try to find records for PRR colors ??? What did BM&R use for their E units ?? came out really good. They ( PRR) must have bought paint from suppliers ???....Bill**** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Electrics in Harrisburg Date: Wed, 6 Jan 99 12:23:15 -0500 From: Jerry On 1/6/99 10:48 AM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >Thus 57 units were "freight" and 82 units were >"passenger", but these are not absolute use restrictions. An approximate >answer to your question would be 2 GG-1s for every 3 P5a's. Give the man a beer! Thanks, Bruce. >It would not >be unreasonable to focus locomotive types on certain trains. For example, >the GG-1 would be rare on a coal drag, but more commonly applied to a >hotshot perishable or mail train (which in turn would be more likely to use >the passenger main instead of the A&S, and might actually appear at >Harrisburg ). Now this IS interesting... a while back I was trying to substantiate early TrucTrain traffic through Harrisburg. We couldn't find any diffinitive answer, and it seemed that most throught it went through Enola and the Atglen & Susquehanna. However, one person was adament that they remembered TT's running by their home in Elizabethtown. Well guess what: E-town is on the passenger main! As for the mail trains...I plan to use my BP20's on them. By 1954 the Sharks were unreliable and an article in Rails Northeast indicates that their use on mail trains was common. Sure, a breakdown en-route would be bad for mail, but the mail itself wouldn't get vocal about it as passengers would! Of course, I could do a loco change at Harrisburg... ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:50:39 EST Subject: [PRR] Frankford Jct Wreck..??? ****I cannot locate the ICC Ax report, but the frankford jct wreck comes to mind. during WW2, 1944-ish..?? No memory of loco #, or Keystone Issue or RNE (?) it wuz in. Anyone with better access to their info..??? Train #18 Edison Wreck was 4861, 1966-ish...I am SURE of that, for reasons.... Also one rolled over at LANE, train # 225 (?), back in 1967-ish ?? I am friends of the fireman who rolled over with that G, I will ask him next month when we get together !!! I have shots of the under=belly of that engine, the loco # does not show on bottom of loco, only " made by Lionel Corp., Irvington, NJ"..... BTW, there is some neat LIRR stuff on da 'Bay, for those of us who like to do Research, Verification and work with Real Factual Material !!!!..Others Need Not Apply !!!!.bill*** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:44:45 -0600 Subject: [PRR] PRR L1 From: locoshop@juno.com Hello all, I am looking for some information on the L1s. With the GHQ kit comes a new tender and a doghouse for this. Is the break down on units equipped with doghouses given in the article in the Keystone? I am not a member of the PRRT&HS right now but am going to join on the 15th of this month and will at that point obtain a copy. What I am specifically wondering is approximately how many of the L1s were "modernized" and which ones had tenders with doghouses on them? The decals included with the kit include numbers 952, 406, 305, 520, 843, 9115, 3276, 1627, 780, 110, 1752, 1695, 4190, 714, and 559. Any information is greatly appreciated. I must say I am rejoining the ranks of the Pennsy fans again. Also, shat numbers have been used by others on this list on these models (I am looking to use numbers that have not been used in case of a get together on a modular layout). Please respond to locoshop@juno.com Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:45:00 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Beer shippers (was Billboard Reefers) Rick, You said: >What this means for modelers of the 60s and later is that there was a summer >"beer rush." An outsized movement of RBL's would radiate out from Saint >Louis, some carrying MRS reporting marks. Note that these carloads PROBABLY >go primarily to the satellite breweries for reshipment by truck, but could go >directly to large beer distributorships. And these are "hot" cars; they must >be delivered before the load warms up. I grew up in Webster NY, an eastern 'burb of Rochester, about a mile from the former NYC Hojack line. In the '70s, the days of PC, they ran MK rebuilt EMD powered RS-3s on the line, and I could railfan on my bike, 'cause I was faster than the train! I clearly remember the old Webster station recieving several mechanical reefers a week (there may have been some insulated boxcars..but I remember the reefers) loaded with kegged beer. My foggy memory says that this was mostly Budweiser (an Anheuser-Busch product). Road names on the cars were exotic (to me!) midwestern roads like Soo Line. Remember that Rochester is the home of Genesee Beer, but that would have been shipped locally by truck. Of course, this was in the summer...because otherwise I would have been in school and not railfanning ;^)...so based on your post, I would assume that this was beer from either St Louis or a satelite brewery going to a local distributor. The beer, plus some lumber, and an occaisional heavy equipment load for the team track accounted for a large amount of the traffic on the line! BTW, for the PRR relevance? The Hojack line interchanged with the PRR's Elmira branch about 20 miles east of Webster in the town of Sodus (just a couple miles south of the lines terminus at the coal dock at Sodus Point). Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 13:37:04 -0500 From: tmahon@cfnh.com (Tom Mahon) Subject: Re: [PRR] Billboard Reefers and Beer RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 1/5/99 7:29:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, > wooddale@bellsouth.net writes: > > > Billboard reefers were outlawed in the late 1930s. > I think the date is 1938; this was an ICC action against a situation where one > company's product might be shipped in a car advertising his competitor. > > > > Beer cars vanished quickly after the billboards were > > outlawed, although Miller and Hamms operated 50' cars in the 60s and early > > 70s. > > A question for all my beer-reefer-loving friends: did beer reefers disappear > during prohibition (1922-1933?). If so, then the life of steel-underframe > billboard beer reefers must have been short - 1933 through 1938. Of course, > if the car is leased to the exclusive use of the brewing company, I don't > think billboarding/display advertising is outlawed at all. > > An allied yarn -- according to my logistics profs, Anheuser-Busch has always > been one of the great "railroad" breweries. Before the 1960s, A-B's gigantic > old facility in St. Louis shipped its output tonnage to all US points, by > rail. Witness the Manufacturers Railway, owned by A-B. MRS's two jobs were > to > 1. Switch the plant with America's most-waxed Alco switchers (shades of UPS' > package cars) and > 2. supply insulated box cars (RBL's) for cases of Budweiser, etc. > > The strategic planners at Busch saw a huge increase in sales coming with the > 1960s -- which meant more capacity was needed, but only in the summer. > Consequently, A-B designed economical-sized satellite breweries (among them > Columbus, OH, New Orleans, and somewhere in New Hampshire IIRC) that had the > capacity to handle local consumption for most of the year. The summer > increase would come from the old plant in St. Louis. > That somewhere in New Hampshire is Merrimack around 1972. It is now serviced by Guilford Trans. which runs grain and tank cars in and out of the plant. Most of the product moves by truck. I met the freight agent for the area and he told me that during the Teamsters strike in the mid-70's the plant ran at 95% capacity as it was the most automated plant at the time and shipped everything by rail to avoid the pickets at the gate. Ironically, it is now the smallest brewery and has been under threat of closure for the last 5 years. I worked for a town in the area and A-B's tax payment to Merrimack in 1978 or 1979 was more than the entire town budget for the town I worked for (Over $900K). There are at least two list members who assist with the annual display of the Bedford (NH) Boomers at the Visitor's Center the third week of June. We meet the 4th Thrusday of the month there and this is the payback. Our display usually draws a big crowd. The first year, several visitors wanted to know how much A-B paid to have the display built. They were incredulous that non-professional model makers could do work that good. We loved it!! So if you're in the area stop on by. Jerry, sorry for the digression. Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas Fry" Subject: [PRR] paint colors Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:25:10 -0500 I have sent off a email to Dupont and to American Rail Car to search for the actual paint mix and formulas for PRR 1940/50/60... These guys at www.americanrailcar.com have a very nice web page and some history from 1873 to the present along with 30,000 pictures specs and drawings etc.... One of these companys said they have OVERLAND MODELS INC , copy their cars for use in the company show rooms etc... tdf ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:05:22 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: RE: Freight car red fading In a message dated 1/6/99 12:57:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRRSignals@aol.com writes: << Possibly try to find records for PRR colors ??? What did BM&R use for their E units ?? came out really good. They ( PRR) must have bought paint from suppliers ???....Bill**** >> The rpoblem is that prior to 1953 and the advent of synthetic pigments, each paintshp bought locally. The only standard was the the pigment be ironsesquioxide. The clays used to formulate the paint ahd varying amounts of the pigment and thus shades of Freight Car Color were different for ever shop. Note synthetic ironsesquioxide does not duplicate the natural pigment well. If a supply of the natural pigment can be obtained, it might be possible to manufacture the correct PRR Freight Car color of pre 1953 era. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Beer shippers (was Billboard Reefers) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 99 15:55:26 -0500 From: Jerry On 1/6/99 1:45 PM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >BTW, for the PRR relevance? The Hojack line interchanged with the PRR's >Elmira branch about 20 miles east of Webster in the town of Sodus (just a >couple miles south of the lines terminus at the coal dock at Sodus Point). BTW, BTW, there was a brewery at Sodus Point, Genessee, I believe. Given the subject matter of this thread, perhaps in the above statement you should have written: "the lines terminus at the brewery at Sodus Point"! Is anyone else getting thirsty? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 15:57:56 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Billboard Reefers and Beer ****We also had a NY Div Anheuser - Busch Facility, which everyone on the PRR Main / NE Corridor could see, just geogr. east of Waverly Yard in Newark, NJ. That did require multiple and daily drills. What a shame, while working as Freight Agent in the Newark area, I stopped in there often, and they had their fresh beer on tap !!!!...Hmmm, Rule G.... Our group all remembers the MILLER 50' Billboard Reefers in the 60's, and we have pix somewheres since we modeled them in O and HO, white with large emblem. During the train-robbing days of the 70's, it was decided NOT to advertise car contents, and they were re-painted and only the rails knew they were Miller cars. The robberies subsided, somewhat...... RR Police were regularly assigned to 'protect' beer cars set out at outlying points, such as Red Bank, etc. So, whomever said that private ownership allowed billboards was *probably* correct. Neat combo for some of us, RR and beer !!!! Anyone else build a Walthers O scale Horseshoe Curve Beer Can Car in O Scale ??? Mine was at the model display PRR Conv 1970's.... And Mark, don't bother....Al already Gotcha !!!!......enough "polemics (?), more PRR stuff !!!..........bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] RE: RE: Freight car red fading Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 15:32:06 -0500 Hi gang, "As far as analyzing, I wonder if a chemist could analyze the content, possibly with gas chromatography or the like. When paint stores analyze a chip the computer calculates what formula is needed to add to the existing primary base white. " As a forensic chemist we analyze paints all the time using various instrumentation. If I could get a sample of the paint (1cmx1cm) I might be able to do something with it. The fading shouldn't affect the chemical analysis. Chris Chany PS got the Hallmark GG1 ornament and Hallmark scale model of the Lionel non-scale model GG1 along with PRR suspenders for xmas. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Terry Link" Subject: [PRR] Re: Red Caboose 40' AAR Box Car Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:33:54 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: Greg Martin Co Founder > I saw a sample of the Red Caboose AAR 40' single door box car in Rosemont >(Chicago) in October. It is a retooled version of the old Front Range kit. The Red Caboose dealer newsletter states that they purchased the Front Range Kit, then tossed it, keeping only the roof and ends. Quoting the newsletter "Old tooling was purchased by Red Caboose and now everything has been thrown out but the ends of roof! That's right - all new sides, details, 7 & 8 rung ladders, doors, roofwalk and more have been replaced - we should have started from scratch on this one!" They will be offering Riveted 6' single door, Riveted 8' single door, Welded 6' single door, Welded 8' single door, Riveted 12'7" double door and Weled Cominbation sliding/plug door. Haven't seen them yet, but they should quite a bit better than the Front Range cars! Terry Link Bramalea, Ontario TRLINK@netcom.ca ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 18:29:50 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Re:Billboard Reefers and Beer Hi All... I don't know about other Anheuser-Busch breweries...but near here in Williamsburg,Va. they ship in their raw materials by rail on the CSX line that runs from Richmond to Newport News. They ship the beer out by both truck and train. Raw material in is shipped by pooled and/or leased cars...boxcars and covered hopper cars. Outbound beer is shipped in pooled boxcars. This is based on what i have seen at the brewery. I remember the National Beer brewery in Baltimore also shipped by rail inbound and trucks and trains outbound. PRR's Canton yard(east Baltimore south of Bay View yard) was near this brewery. There were other breweries in Baltimore that might have shipped the same way as long as they were near a rail line. On a related note.... PRR had on line meat packing plants in Baltimore too. One was on trackage that was not too far from the afore mentioned National brewery. My dad has told me about working one of these local freight jobs (before many of these plants closed and the trains were cut back or taken off). At the meat plant the packing plant employees that dealt with the train crews had a ..er...um...i guess you would call it a working relationship with the local train crew...each time a crew serviced the plant (and the one i'm thinking of was the Eskay plant) they got to get hams or something similar. I remember in the early PC days when dad worked one of these locals, him coming home with all sorts of stuff. Meats,fruits(from a near-by warehouse) even a toaster from a appliance dealer. There was (maybe still is) another meat packing plant in south Baltimore (Mash's ?) near Halethorpe right on the NEC main line. I've heard over the years that theres supposed to be some old passenger cars at this plant that they use for offices. Perhaps someone knows. Well i better go before i you all fall asleep. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 17:00:11 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight car "RED" If you get a chip, get the color from the back side. (Just like a decorated drinking glass that fades from the dishwasher- the color facing the glass is usually still good. Steve Bartlett Bill Knepper wrote: > > Greg, > Your idea of using a paint sample is good, but how are you going to get one > that has not faded? Remember paint back then was not as good as it is > today. It chalked and faded fast, just like the auto's did ! > > Bill > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 18:05:02 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR GG1 4930 (fwd) All I could find was the retirement date for the 4930 "ret. 10/68". Built 2/43 with Westinghouse electircal equipment. cos Mark Bej wrote: > Guys: > I received a question that, doubtless, one of the crowd should be able > to answer off the top of their head ... > > Oh, and a reply to Bill Strassner's accusation of erronicity is forthcoming... > > -- > Mark > > Steve Demkin scrivit: > > From SDEMKIN@dcccnet.dccc.edu Wed Jan 6 02:46:23 1999 > > Message-Id: > > X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 > > Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 02:44:03 -0500 > > From: Steve Demkin > > To: bejm@eeg.ccf.org > > Subject: PRR GG1 4930 > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain > > Content-Disposition: inline > > > > 4930 was in a wreck somewhere btwn Washington and Boston (duh!), > > but where, when, how? Also, what was her fate -- scrapped > > immediately or restored to service? Someone told me the wreck may have > > been in the Philly area (Frankfort Junction)? Please help. Thanks! - SRD > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 19:01:24 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Re: freight colors Hi again... In case anyone is interested....When i took the photos and measurements of the old PRR Truc-Train trailer here in Suffolk (Va.) I also got some paint samples. These were taken from the underside of the trailer where the sun would'nt fade the paint. I also made sure that it was from a area where road dirt and salts would have had a miminal effect on the given area i got it from. One sample i sent to Jerry when i sent him my info and pictures. I still have one or two others here at the house somewhere. What brings this post about is some of you all talking about having a freight car sample analyzed and i thought about the samples from the trailer i have. And before some of you ask....I haven't been back yet to ask if its for sale and how much. But i still think they'ed sell it if the reason and price could be worked out...its kinda a laid back junk yard. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 22:14:16 -0500 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: [PRR] Nice Color Pic of T-1 #6610 Eichhorn@aol.com wrote: > > Hi Gang, > > Bud Laws has posted another excellent color photo to > "alt.binaries.pictures.rail." > It's one of the early T's with the 'Buick Portholes', fresh paint, and > recently bathed. A bunch of head-end stuff and many HW's in tow. Photo also > includes a ton of telegraph poles, in the background, with cross-members > galore....something you rarely see anymore. Anyone have any idea where this > photo may have been taken? > I've spoken with Bud, and he goes around to all the train shows and buys these > photographs and then posts many of them to "alt.binaries.pictures.rail" and > others. > Someone recently mentioned some of his other stuff, a short time ago, here on > PRR-Talk and I too feel they are worth taking a look. Link is provided below: > > alt.binaries.pictures.rail > (unread) > (Photo posting date is : 1/5/99, Titled: PRR Steam #6610, from budl@pdq.net) > > Regards, > George > George, I believe the post stated that the picture was taken near Tyrone, PA in 1942. Bud Laws & Bill Waller have been posting great PRR pictures for quite a while. They are filling my hard disk fast. -- Jerry Shickler e-mail: geshick@velocity.net Visit the PRR P&E/E&P web-site at http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk@aol.com Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:05:30 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Elmira Branch (was Beer shippers (was Billboard In a message dated 1/6/99 1:56:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, Dr. Bruce writes: << BTW, for the PRR relevance? The Hojack line interchanged with the PRR's Elmira branch about 20 miles east of Webster in the town of Sodus (just a couple miles south of the lines terminus at the coal dock at Sodus Point). >> and then Jerry wrote: <> Now wait a minute!!! The Elmira Branch went through Sodus Center on the way to Sodus Point, but it didn't go through the town of Sodus. In New York state, townname Center can be miles away from townname. This particular PRR/NYC interchange was in Wallington, NY. The building at Sodus Point was a malt house. Grain was delivered to it by rail. After processing, the malt was trucked to Genesee's _brewery_ at Rochester. The official terminus of the line was past both the coal pier and the malt house. At one time there was a passenger station on the north side of Fitzhugh Street. John Keel trying to squeeze an O scale layout based on this part of the railroad into a too-small room ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 23:08:15 EST Subject: [PRR] X43, X43A, X43B, X43C (aka the X Files) Gize, Been following the thread on boxcars vs. the elusive PRR X43 "classes." I'm finding very little reference material on these cars. Scarce info is normal, because they are vendor cars instead of "Altoona" designs. But these are weird even for vendor cars. For example: 1. I can't find a builder reference for the X43. ACF for X43A, Pressed Steel for X43B, Mt. Vernon plant of Pressed Steel for X43C, right? 2. Pictures showing the ends (and especially the roofs) are scarce. Did one of these subclasses really have a "Murphy" panel roof? Were all 4 classes built with a "tabbed" side sill? 2. There's a rumor that some of these were cars built for stock (years before their 1950-1951 "built" dates of installation on PRR), and weren't sold until the Pennsy showed up needing boxcars in the worst way. Fact or fiction? 3. There were unusual in-service problems (with the frame?). Judging from the PK paint jobs in my slides, some of these cars were reworked in the 60s with nifty new side sills, and some got the ugliest deep channels added only under the doorway. These measures suggest that the frames must have been giving way (bending?) under load. BTW, a great kitbashing opp -- a nonstandard car with multiple choices of really nonstandard cobbled-up side sills. 4. In the B&O Color Guide, Craig Bossler discusses cars that were sold by PRR? PC? to Chicago Freight Car Company, who refurbished them (1968-1970) and leased them to the B&O and the C&O (class B-19). He identifies these as coming from PRR 600000-603999, which contains X43B, X43A, and X43. Were all 3 classes involved here? 5. To add insult to injury, I believe we've just gone through explanations on PRR-Talk about why all but the X43C are currently unmodelable. All in all, it sounds like the X43 through X43C were a nightmare that only a mother could love. Since this is a pretty good description of the junk that the PRR traditionally used to banish to Lines West (especially to the Cincinnati District), I'm interested in learning more. What info sources have I missed? Rick Tipton On PRR Lines West at Louisville - and it's COLD (for here ). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR L1 Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:46:56 -0600 Jeremy--I do not recall any photos from the 30's, 40's or 50's showing an L1 without a doghouse, but there were two types of doghouses used. Most common was the "one man", but some L1's got the "three man". Both of these were used on both types of tenders, the 90F75 (most common) and the 110F75 (most commonly found behind K4's) which is on 520 at Strasburg. To be accurate try to pick a engine you have a photo for. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL -----Original Message----- From: locoshop@juno.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 1:09 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR L1 >Hello all, > >I am looking for some information on the L1s. With the GHQ kit comes a >new tender and a doghouse for this. Is the break down on units equipped >with doghouses given in the article in the Keystone? I am not a member >of the PRRT&HS right now but am going to join on the 15th of this month >and will at that point obtain a copy. What I am specifically wondering >is approximately how many of the L1s were "modernized" and which ones had >tenders with doghouses on them? The decals included with the kit include >numbers 952, 406, 305, 520, 843, 9115, 3276, 1627, 780, 110, 1752, 1695, >4190, 714, and 559. Any information is greatly appreciated. > >I must say I am rejoining the ranks of the Pennsy fans again. Also, shat >numbers have been used by others on this list on these models (I am >looking to use numbers that have not been used in case of a get together >on a modular layout). Please respond to locoshop@juno.com > >Jeremy Helms >Omaha, Nebraska >locoshop@juno.com > >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on >special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 02:10:15 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 # 4930.... In a message dated 99-01-06 12:59:04 EST, you write: << Also one rolled over at LANE, train # 225 (?), back in 1967-ish ?? I am friends of the fireman who rolled over with that G, I will ask him next month when we get together !!! I have shots of the under=belly of that engine, the loco # does not show on bottom of loco, only " made by Lionel Corp., Irvington, NJ"..... >> ****Well, the 1968-ish date knocks out Frankford Jct, and the GG1 hitting the Tampax at Lincoln was in Amtrak daze, so that is no good. I broke down out of curiousity and called Bobby Jordan, that ' fireboy ' that I mentioned, and he said, " Geeez, Billy, you gave me the pictures of the wreck !!!" He confirmed that 4930 from his very vivid memory of the GG1 truss-bridge - like frame saving his life !!! A deeper dig produced PROOF ( some of us like verifications....), take a peek at: http://members.aol.com/prrsignals/PRR4930W.jpg And my notes show Sept (?) 1968, Train was #221, freight was SWC-1, doubling out of Waverly Yard right near LANE Tower, a hard double jack-knifed the mt tri-levels, out onto track #4 just as #221 approached, no time to do anything but say "cheese". Radio conversations at that time indicated that an over-anxious trainmaster "Hustled UP" the move, told the crew, " come on back, plenty of room!!". Sadly, the unqualified Boss was a "guesser" and speculating type of person, and he "guessed" they were going to a different track. OOOps, they were going against the speedway, and the cars were right up Close !!!! Booom, the sound was heard 'round Neck Lane !!! Then Crash as #221 sideswiped SWC-1. My photo shows trains running on the only track left, #1 on the Flyover, with a rare Westward psgr in the shot ( planned shot ....). A bad day on the PC NY Div !!??!!! BTW, that "guessing" Trainmaster was summarily Fired, and we heard he ended up in the Medical field, although he still attempts to "advise" on RR matters !!??!!!! Enjoy the pic, although you cannot see the " Lionel " from this angle, other Billy Belly Shot later when I find it !!!.......bill****** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 03:42:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] X43, X43A, X43B, X43C (aka the X Files) In a message dated 1/6/99 8:24:58 PM Pacific Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << Gize, Been following the thread on boxcars vs. the elusive PRR X43 "classes." I'm finding very little reference material on these cars. Scarce info is normal, because they are vendor cars instead of "Altoona" designs. But these are weird even for vendor cars. For example: 1. I can't find a builder reference for the X43.> Rick, my records show the X43 was a product of GREENVILLE in 12/50. Sides riveted 10 panels and a diagonal panel roof, with a 7 foot door I believe they are the "lightweight" Youngstown Corrugated doors. < ACF for X43A, Pressed Steel for X43B, Mt. Vernon plant of Pressed Steel for X43C, right? 2. Pictures showing the ends (and especially the roofs) are scarce. Did one of these subclasses really have a "Murphy" panel roof? > Rick, before I would model any car from beyond 1948 with a Stanray "Murphy" panel roof I would certainly get a picture or contact "Dr. Pennsy" himself Richard Burg. < Were all 4 classes built with a "tabbed" side sill? 2. There's a rumor that some of these were cars built for stock (years before their 1950-1951 "built" dates of installation on PRR), and weren't sold until the Pennsy showed up needing boxcars in the worst way. Fact or fiction?> Rick, I have never heard that one but I know one subclass was leased from Chicago Car Company but I do not remember which... I think it was the X43A, the welded cars from ACF. < 3. There were unusual in-service problems (with the frame?). Judging from the PK paint jobs in my slides, some of these cars were reworked in the 60s with nifty new side sills, and some got the ugliest deep channels added only under the doorway. These measures suggest that the frames must have been giving way (bending?) under load.> Rick, this was a fix to the door openings to allow for the extra weight of unloading by forklift. The rough door openings were reinforced with added steel channels beneath the side sills or in some cases a new side sill all together. The best fixes came in the late 60's with the addition of a gusset plate that extended above and attached to the lower portion of the door jamb, then extended below the floor on to the side sill and wrapped beneath the door sill. These were more common on 50 foot cars or 40 foot cars that had been stretched to 50 foot, a common practice starting in the mid 60's. < BTW, a great kitbashing opp -- a nonstandard car with multiple choices of really nonstandard cobbled-up side sills. 4. In the B&O Color Guide, Craig Bossler discusses cars that were sold by PRR? PC? to Chicago Freight Car Company, who refurbished them (1968-1970) and leased them to the B&O and the C&O (class B-19). He identifies these as coming from PRR 600000-603999, which contains X43B, X43A, and X43. Were all 3 classes involved here?> Rick, correct all three classes < 5. To add insult to injury, I believe we've just gone through explanations on PRR-Talk about why all but the X43C are currently unmodelable.> Rick and all, I think that you should be able to model all the X43 and subclasses you just have to start with the right "core" kit and I think we will get as close as you need when the Red Caboose kit hits the market. Then you can customize it until you heart won't have it. If you want to see an awesome photo of a FEW X43A's just look in Pennsy Power 2 page 103 behind the 3 unit set of Baldwin Sharks, ever car the same and not a rivet to count. Also check out the trailing unit on the Shark set, notice the paint, lettering and striping. You don't often see anyone model a shark in this scheme [*slap* get back on track 3^) ] Also, check out page 94 and just scan back and look at how many different shades of "PRR Freight Car Color" appears on these brand new X-29's in 1929... why worry about matching a chip, just ask which chip off which car ... so much for standards. Rich Orr is right, find him the right dirt! 3^) < All in all, it sounds like the X43 through X43C were a nightmare that only a mother could love. Since this is a pretty good description of the junk that the PRR traditionally used to banish to Lines West (especially to the Cincinnati District), I'm interested in learning more. What info sources have I missed?> Rick, I think if you go into Keystone Crossings and go to Rob Schoenberg's(?) site he may have some more info and some pictures and perhaps some drawings. Also some back issues of RMJ and Model Railroading may have some answers but they are usually buried under the Builder more than just Pennsy seeing how the P Co. did not build them. << Rick Tipton On PRR Lines West at Louisville - and it's COLD (for here ). >> Dr. Hendricson what can you add? Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 # 4930.... Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:46:35 -0500 (EST) Bill, I had some trouble following your post. PRRSignals@aol.com scrivit: > And my notes show Sept (?) 1968, Train was #221, freight was SWC-1, doubling > out of Waverly Yard right near LANE Tower, a hard double jack-knifed the mt > tri-levels, out onto track #4 just as #221 approached, no time to do anything > but say "cheese". > Radio conversations at that time indicated that an over-anxious trainmaster > "Hustled UP" the move, told the crew, " come on back, plenty of room!!". > Sadly, the unqualified Boss was a "guesser" and speculating type of person, > and he "guessed" they were going to a different track. OOOps, they were going > against the speedway, and the cars were right up Close !!!! Booom, the sound > was heard 'round Neck Lane !!! Then Crash as #221 sideswiped SWC-1. So the G was on 221? And 221 was coming down which track? SWC-1 was doubling westbound? Onto which track was it supposed to double? "Speedway" is ... #4 track, or which one? -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew Harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:Billboard Reefers and Beer Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 05:35:16 PST > I don't know about other Anheuser-Busch breweries...but near here in > Williamsburg,Va. they ship in their raw materials by rail on the > CSX line that runs from Richmond to Newport News. They ship the beer out by both truck and train _________________________________________ To amplify, grain arrives in covered hoppers. Loads out usually in insulated fifty foot box cars. When you see a string of FGE insulated cars, it isn't always fruit inside. Andrew Harmantas, overlooking what used to be Pennsy ferry facilities from my vantage point near C&O milepost FM Zero ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:51:30 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] HALLMARK GG1 Note that these are "models" of the Lionels - not the real ones. Not only do they say "Lionel" on them but turn the GG-1 over and you'll see the center third rail pick ups ! Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] HALLMARK GG1 Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:31:12 -0500 Steve, Yes Hallmark had two GG1's for sale this Christmas. The first was the ornament (about n-scale size). The other is 1/6 (I believe) the size of the Lionel G. It comes mounted on a piece of 3 rail track in a plexiglass display case. Cost about $100. Hallmark also makes a N&W J class, a 726 Berkshire, and coming this spring a AA set of F3's from some little railroad that also ran NY to Chicago. They have lightning stripes and are grey. Hopefully Hallmark will bring out the S-2 turbine as an ornament since it seems the first 3 ornaments are from the catalog cover that also has four locos on it Santa Fe F3, steam loco(berkshire?), GG1, and S-2. BTW I was at Hudson Shores model railroad shop and he had the GG1 ornament sitting on his n-scale layout and people were asking what the silver loop between the pantographs was! Chris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:29:56 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Elmira Branch (was Beer shippers (was Billboard John, >The Elmira Branch went through Sodus Center on the way to Sodus Point, but it >didn't go through the town of Sodus. In New York state, townname Center can >be miles away from townname. This particular PRR/NYC interchange was in >Wallington, NY. Thanks! I stand corrected. Mapquest also shows the diamond clearly in Wallington, several miles east of Sodus. BTW, Mapquest also clearly shows the pier at Sodus Pt on the map still, even though its been gone for years. I could have sworn that the sign said Sodus on Rt 104...of course I'm working from memory here, and around 20 years ago at that! The worst part of this is that when I lived there, I didn't even know that it had been a PRR branch, and probably wouldn't have cared. My PRR interest came later... >The building at Sodus Point was a malt house. Grain was delivered to it by >rail. After processing, the malt was trucked to Genesee's _brewery_ at >Rochester. >The official terminus of the line was past both the coal pier and the malt >house. At one time there was a passenger station on the north side of >Fitzhugh Street. Ok, now you're being picky! I meant that the line terminated at Sodus Point, and that the main industry there was the coal pier. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:20:37 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] X43, X43A, X43B, X43C (aka the X Files) RickTipton writes: << Gize, Been following the thread on boxcars vs. the elusive PRR X43 "classes." I'm finding very little reference material on these cars. Scarce info is normal, because they are vendor cars instead of "Altoona" designs. But these are weird even for vendor cars. For example: 1. I can't find a builder reference for the X43.> Rick, my records show the X43 was a product of GREENVILLE in 12/50. Sides riveted 10 panels and a diagonal panel roof, with a 7 foot door I believe they are the "lightweight" Youngstown Corrugated doors. < ACF for X43A, Pressed Steel for X43B, Mt. Vernon plant of Pressed Steel for X43C, right? 2. Pictures showing the ends (and especially the roofs) are scarce. Did one of these subclasses really have a "Murphy" panel roof? > Rick, before I would model any car from beyond 1948 with a Stanray "Murphy" panel roof I would certainly get a picture or contact "Dr. Pennsy" himself Richard Burg. < Were all 4 classes built with a "tabbed" side sill? 2. There's a rumor that some of these were cars built for stock (years before their 1950-1951 "built" dates of installation on PRR), and weren't sold until the Pennsy showed up needing boxcars in the worst way. Fact or fiction?> Rick, I have never heard that one but I know one subclass was leased from Chicago Car Company but I do not remember which... I think it was the X43A, the welded cars from ACF. < 3. There were unusual in-service problems (with the frame?). Judging from the PK paint jobs in my slides, some of these cars were reworked in the 60s with nifty new side sills, and some got the ugliest deep channels added only under the doorway. These measures suggest that the frames must have been giving way (bending?) under load.> Rick, this was a fix to the door openings to allow for the extra weight of unloading by forklift. The rough door openings were reinforced with added steel channels beneath the side sills or in some cases a new side sill all together. The best fixes came in the late 60's with the addition of a gusset plate that extended above and attached to the lower portion of the door jamb, then extended below the floor on to the side sill and wrapped beneath the door sill. These were more common on 50 foot cars or 40 foot cars that had been stretched to 50 foot, a common practice starting in the mid 60's. < BTW, a great kitbashing opp -- a nonstandard car with multiple choices of really nonstandard cobbled-up side sills. 4. In the B&O Color Guide, Craig Bossler discusses cars that were sold by PRR? PC? to Chicago Freight Car Company, who refurbished them (1968-1970) and leased them to the B&O and the C&O (class B-19). He identifies these as coming from PRR 600000-603999, which contains X43B, X43A, and X43. Were all 3 classes involved here?> Rick, correct all three classes < 5. To add insult to injury, I believe we've just gone through explanations on PRR-Talk about why all but the X43C are currently unmodelable.> Rick and all, I think that you should be able to model all the X43 and subclasses you just have to start with the right "core" kit and I think we will get as close as you need when the Red Caboose kit hits the market. Then you can customize it until you heart won't have it. If you want to see an awesome photo of a FEW X43A's just look in Pennsy Power 2 page 103 behind the 3 unit set of Baldwin Sharks, ever car the same and not a rivet to count. Also check out the trailing unit on the Shark set, notice the paint, lettering and striping. You don't often see anyone model a shark in this scheme [*slap* get back on track 3^) ] Also, check out page 94 and just scan back and look at how many different shades of "PRR Freight Car Color" appears on these brand new X-29's in 1929... why worry about matching a chip, just ask which chip off which car ... so much for standards. Rich Orr is right, find him the right dirt! 3^) < All in all, it sounds like the X43 through X43C were a nightmare that only a mother could love. Since this is a pretty good description of the junk that the PRR traditionally used to banish to Lines West (especially to the Cincinnati District), I'm interested in learning more. What info sources have I missed?> Rick, I think if you go into Keystone Crossings and go to Rob Schoenberg's(?) site he may have some more info and some pictures and perhaps some drawings. Also some back issues of RMJ and Model Railroading may have some answers but they are usually buried under the Builder more than just Pennsy seeing how the P Co. did not build them. << Rick Tipton On PRR Lines West at Louisville - and it's COLD (for here ). >> Dr. Hendricson what can you add? Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:48:19 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: [OLD FC] X43, X43A, X43B, X43C (aka the X Files) This is off the top of my head as most of my material on these cars is at home. X43, X43a and leased X43b cars had Murphy flat panel roof X43c and purchased X43b had diagonal panel roof. Change in roof occured during production of X43b. X43 X43a and X43b 7' door X43c 8' door All X43 (603500-603999) and all X43a (602000-603499) and some X43b (600000-601999) were leased from the Chicago Freight Car Co and not initially purchased by the PRR. These cars were designated by the presence of a 4" white triangle above the car number. Maintenance cost of the cars was chargeable to CFC Co. So the marking was to assure that the car shops charged the cost to CFC. There is at least one photo of these cars with a 1945 build date. Is this accurate or an lettering error ? How the build date was determined or if the cars were rebuilt before leased to PRR is unknown to me but in either case the cars were not "new" when received by the PRR When the lease expired the PRR purchased and retained those in better condition and returned the others to CFC. CFC refurbished/rebuilt them and leased/sold them to B&O and C&O All X43c (70400-71899) and some X43b (85400-86399) were purchased outright by PRR. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] RE: [FC] [OLD FC] X43, X43A, X43B, X43C (aka the X Files) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:39:00 -0500 My freight car page http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=X43 has some information of the X43's from previous discussions on the PRR & freight car lists along with PRR class diagrams for all the sub classes... Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: The Freightcars List > [mailto:freightcars@sunny16.photo.tntech.edu]On Behalf Of > SUVCWORR@aol.com > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 10:48 AM > To: RickTipton@aol.com; freightcars@sunny16.photo.tntech.edu; > MEMRA@listserv.dartmouth.edu; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [FC] [OLD FC] X43, X43A, X43B, X43C (aka the X Files) > > > This is off the top of my head as most of my material on these cars is at > home. > > X43, X43a and leased X43b cars had Murphy flat panel roof > X43c and purchased X43b had diagonal panel roof. Change in roof occured > during production of X43b. > > X43 X43a and X43b 7' door > X43c 8' door > > All X43 (603500-603999) and all X43a (602000-603499) and some X43b > (600000-601999) were leased from the Chicago Freight Car Co and > not initially > purchased by the PRR. These cars were designated by the presence of a 4" > white triangle above the car number. Maintenance cost of the cars was > chargeable to CFC Co. So the marking was to assure that the car > shops charged > the cost to CFC. > There is at least one photo of these cars with a 1945 build date. Is this > accurate or an lettering error ? How the build date was > determined or if the > cars were rebuilt before leased to PRR is unknown to me but in > either case the > cars were not "new" when received by the PRR > > When the lease expired the PRR purchased and retained those in better > condition and returned the others to CFC. CFC > refurbished/rebuilt them and > leased/sold them to B&O and C&O > > All X43c (70400-71899) and some X43b (85400-86399) were > purchased outright by > PRR. > > Rich Orr > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:Billboard Reefers and Beer Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 11:55:03 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 7 Jan, "Andrew Harmantas" wrote: > > I don't know about other Anheuser-Busch breweries...but near here in > > Williamsburg,Va. they ship in their raw materials by rail on the > > CSX line that runs from Richmond to Newport News. They ship the > > beer out by both truck and train > To amplify, grain arrives in covered hoppers. Loads out usually in > insulated fifty foot box cars. When you see a string of FGE insulated > cars, it isn't always fruit inside. For those of us modelling BCE (Before Current Era), when did covered hoppers start to get used for grain to replace boxcars? Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 16:53:13 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:Billboard Reefers and Beer If it is of any interest, grain arrived at the Shredded Wheat plant in Niagara Falls in box cars...unless you are modeling a specific site, you may have options. Steve Bartlett Andrew Harmantas wrote: > ........ > To amplify, grain arrives in covered hoppers......... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] CSX-NS-CR Matters Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:54:46 -0500 SPF list I don't know how many of you all are interested in real railroading in addition to 4/3/1 box car ends, X43's, FCR, track pans, wrecked GG1s etc. If you are you may find this lengthy message of interest if not just delete it. It deals with the break up of CR and how CSX and NS are progressing. Mostly about CSX. Al - FPE >>On Track to Transformation >>The Conrail Deal May Be the Least of the Changes at CSX. >>A Bigger One Is Remaking an Internal Culture. >> >> By Don Phillips >> Washington Post Staff Writer >> Monday, January 4, 1999 >> >> Sometime in the next few months, Richmond-based CSX >>Corp.'s eastern >> railroad empire will spread into the heavy shipping >>centers and ports of the >> Northeast as the corporation takes over almost half of >>Philadelphia-based >> Conrail. >> >> But a stroll through CSX's rail unit headquarters in >>Jacksonville, Fla., might >> leave one wondering who took over whom. >> >> As CSX prepares to go into battle for freight traffic >>with Norfolk Southern >> Corp., which will get the other half of Conrail, CSX >>operations will be run by >> a Conrail man. Its most service-sensitive business >>unit will be run by a >> Conrail man. Labor relations will be run by a Conrail >>man. Locomotive and >> crew management will be the responsibility of a >>Conrail man. Numerous >> other Conrail executives have been moved into upper- >>and mid-level >> positions. >> >> The mass migration from Philadelphia to Jacksonville >>is but one outcropping >> of a quiet revolution that has swept over the formerly >>staid, plodding CSX. >> >> Railroad officials, industry sources, union officials, >>Wall Street analysts and >> others attribute the CSX transformation to two >>factors: >> >> CSX Chairman John W. Snow became convinced that the >>railroad had >> become so embroiled in the bruising battle for Conrail >>in 1997 that its service >> and revenue were slipping. >> >> There is a fear that failure to do well in the Conrail >>merger would be the last >> straw for Congress and major shippers, already angry >>about the near >> meltdown of service in the West over the last two >>years after the Union >> Pacific merger with Southern Pacific. The whole >>railroad industry, almost >> totally deregulated in 1981, is nervous about the >>possibility of reregulation. >> >> "We're certainly aware of the risk that would fall on >>us if we fail," Snow said >> in an interview. "We in a real sense are the >>custodians of the future of the >> rail industry. We could not tolerate another failed >>rail merger." >> >> As in many industries, Congress and federal regulators >>are asking how big is >> too big. When the Conrail merger is complete -- as >>early as March 1 -- most >> of the country's rail freight will be controlled by >>four huge systems that are >> the product of numerous other mergers: Union Pacific >>and Burlington >> Northern Santa Fe in the West, and Norfolk Southern >>and CSX in the East. >> >> Norfolk Southern and CSX could hardly be more >>different in personality and >> philosophy. Norfolk Southern has a reputation as a >>tightly run, highly >> disciplined company. It's often called the "Nazis of >>Norfolk" by the union >> officials who deal with it. CSX, on the other hand, is >>a loosely run railroad >> that in some ways was never truly consolidated after >>the series of mergers >> that created it in the 1970s and 1980s. >> >> Even though Norfolk Southern is smaller (14,000 miles >>of track versus >> CSX's 18,500), it has consistently outperformed CSX. >>Many railroad experts >> assumed that Norfolk Southern would win the battle for >>the East after the >> Conrail merger, which thrusts both companies into >>head-to-head competition >> in New York, New Jersey and New England for the first >>time. >> >> Now, with so many new CSX managers drawn from Conrail, >>no one is sure. >> >> Conrail had one of the briefest histories of any major >>U.S. railroad. Created >> by Congress from the broken-down Penn Central and >>other bankrupt >> Eastern and Midwestern railroads in 1976, Conrail >>surpassed the wildest >> dreams of its founders. It became so successful that >>CSX and Norfolk >> Southern in 1997 engaged in a savage battle for the >>company, bidding up the >> price to $10.2 billion before they agreed to split it. >> >> Norfolk Southern and CSX then began a bidding war for >>the managers who >> helped produce the Conrail miracle. CSX seems to have >>claimed many of >> the top people, in large part because it needed fresh >>blood at the top. Norfolk >> Southern could offer Conrail executives only mid-level >>positions. >> >> Still, the fight for Conrail is taking its toll at >>Norfolk Southern and CSX. >> "We're hearing that both Norfolk Southern and CSX are >>having trouble >> maintaining the same quality of service as in the >>past," said Edward Emmett, >> president of the National Industrial Transportation >>League, which represents >> all major U.S. shippers. >> >> Snow acknowledged he had become concerned about CSX >>operations. "It >> was one of the areas [in which] we were not as strong >>as we ought to be," >> he said. "I think it's fair to say -- not in a >>reckless way -- that if we're going >> to be successful, we have to become a new company." >> >> Even as the two acquiring railroads have experienced >>service problems, >> Norfolk Southern has maintained control of its bottom >>line while CSX >> Transportation -- the railroad and CSX Corp.'s largest >>subsidiary -- saw its >> earnings drop beginning in 1997, ending a 16-quarter >>string of >> record-breaking profits. >> >> Snow reportedly told colleagues that the railroad >>seemed to have lost its >> momentum at just the wrong time. He became persuaded >>that CSX was >> using the Conrail merger battle as an excuse for >>failure, industry sources >> say, and the railroad needed an emotional jolt to get >>moving again. >> >> Snow delivered two jolts in 1998, one in June and the >>other in October. >> >> The first was the June 10 announcement that Ronald >>Conway, Conrail's >> senior vice president of operations, would be CSX's >>new executive vice >> president of operations, the man who is supposed to >>make the trains run on >> time. He succeeded the retiring Carl N. Taylor. Six >>days later, Conrail >> Senior Vice President Frank H. Nichols became CSX vice >>president for >> employee relations, succeeding the retiring Donald >>Davis. Already at CSX >> from Conrail was Gary M. Spiegel, the new vice >>president for network >> operations, in charge of the customer-service and >>dispatching centers as well >> as locomotive and crew management. Gerald T. Gates, >>who was Conrail's >> vice president in charge of merger consolidation, also >>came to CSX earlier >> as CSX vice president in charge of operations on >>former Conrail lines, and is >> expected to move up in CSX. >> >> Conway swept through the CSX operation like a giant >>broom. In his first five >> days on the job, he sent a powerful signal that he >>would give field managers >> far more responsibility for running the railroad, >>transferring responsibility for >> track maintenance, signals and other engineering and >>mechanical duties to >> local managers. >> >> That lack of local control was a key factor in >>month-long disruptions to >> Virginia Railway Express service after a freight-train >>accident in Arlington in >> July 1997. Promises and reassurances from CSX's >>corridor manager in >> Baltimore were repeatedly thwarted by decisions made >>-- or not made -- in >> Jacksonville. >> >> "We totally embrace Ron Conway's concepts," said David >>Snyder, VRE's >> manager of railroad services. "We saw them at Conrail, >>and we welcome >> them to CSX." >> >> Snyder said Conway is already beginning to produce >>results, although "right >> now it's a straw horse and it needs more meat on the >>bones." For example, >> Snyder said, managers in the Baltimore-Washington area >>should control >> commuter trains running in Virginia and Maryland. Now >>a dispatching center >> in Jacksonville, 800 miles to the south, controls >>operations. >> >> Conway said this power-to-the-field trend is just >>beginning. Among other >> things, he said he is opposed to centralized >>dispatching centers such as the >> Dufford Center in Jacksonville. He also intends to >>give local managers more >> power over their budgets by introducing a new computer >>system that will >> allow them to estimate how much revenue would be >>generated -- as well as >> cost incurred -- by innovations. For instance, adding >>a new local freight train >> might produce more revenue than it would cost. >> >> "It allows us to play what-if games," Conway said. "We >>can ask, 'Did I make >> it better or worse?' " >> >> Industry sources said Conway is likely to be named >>president of CSX within >> a few years. The current president, Alvin R. "Pete" >>Carpenter, whose >> enthusiasm and cheerleading personality have >>engendered strong loyalties on >> the CSX board and among some top CSX managers, is said >>to be >> considering retirement within a couple of years, and >>Snow is said to have >> told him that his presence is important until it is >>clear that the Conrail >> acquisition is running smoothly. >> >> "I'll certainly be around till that's [the Conrail >>transition] done well," >> Carpenter said last week. He said he also is dedicated >>to a new employee >> relations program that involves a cultural shift in >>discipline policies and >> management-employee communication, and "I want to see >>it a long way >> down the road before I leave," he said. >> >> Snow, while declining to discuss future personnel >>moves, said that in the >> Conrail merger, "one of the great pluses for us is Ron >>and his operating >> people. The windfall is, we got so many of them." >> >> Snow's second jolt was a double-barreled October >>surprise. >> >> First, corporate headquarters in Richmond took over >>CSX Transportation's >> financial organization. All finance for both the >>corporation and the railroad >> was consolidated under Paul R. Goodwin, the >>corporation's executive vice >> president and chief financial officer. >> >> In addition, the October announcement heralded the >>return of former CSX >> official Aden Adams as vice president for marketing. >> >> Adams, 59, has already engaged Norfolk Southern in a >>quiet rate war for >> future chemical traffic in the East. That war became >>so bloody that sources >> in both railroads say the cost of the merger in lost >>revenue -- put at $87 >> million in their merger filings -- has already doubled >>and may triple. Sources >> on both railroads said cooler heads prevailed before >>the war spread beyond >> chemicals. >> >> One of the most important battles the new CSX faces is >>for the crucial >> intermodal business -- the transport of truck trailers >>or marine containers >> carried on flatcars. In charge of this business, which >>generated $669 million >> in revenue for the company in 1997, is another Conrail >>veteran, Lester >> Passa. >> >> Arriving in May 1997, Passa helped plan the merger and >>then was given one >> of the toughest jobs at the company -- to persuade a >>railroad built on hauling >> coal and other low-speed bulk products that it must >>provide high-speed, >> on-time service in order to compete with trucks. His >>former company, >> Conrail, is recognized as a leader at this. >> >> "There's a mindset shift that's going on here," Passa >>said. >> >> That difficult shift still pales in comparison to what >>is perhaps the most >> ambitious of CSX's projects -- changing an internal >>culture of intimidation. >> Jim Schultz, a former Federal Railroad Administration >>official, is charged >> with ending 150 years of militaristic railroad >>discipline. Schultz calls his plan >> "the new compact with employees." >> >> Some of the new compact was quickly obvious, such as >>the popular >> company-wide full-time casual dress policy, designed >>to lessen the >> us-versus-them tone of bosses in suits and workers in >>jeans. >> >> But the heart of the compact is far more difficult -- >>changing a punitive >> disciplinary system in which employees are subjected >>to "investigations" for >> rule infractions and sometimes suspended or fired, >>often getting their jobs >> back in union arbitration. >> >> "We've got a culture rooted in the 19th century," >>Schultz said. >> >> In cooperation with the United Transportation Union >>and the Brotherhood of >> Locomotive Engineers, Schultz and CSX management wrote >>a new >> discipline policy that concentrates on non-punitive >>solutions. Minor offenses >> and serious first-time rules violations, even normally >>unforgivable offenses >> such as drinking on the job, are handled by incident >>review committees and >> "time out" sessions during which employees receive >>counseling and usually >> must give speeches to fellow employees about their >>experience. >> >> Only after repeated serious offenses or a particularly >>egregious rules >> violation is an employee brought up on a formal >>investigation. >> >> Federal safety officials are cautiously optimistic >>about the plan while many >> union officials are reacting with borderline >>enthusiasm. >> >> "Overall, what's happening on CSX is a very good >>trend," said Robert Lauby, >> head of the railroad safety division of the National >>Transportation Safety >> Board. But he warned that "if leniency gets in the way >>of safety, then they'll >> need to take a second look." >> >> James Brunkenhoeffer, legislative director of the >>United Transportation >> Union, called the CSX program "exciting." Already, he >>said, he has heard >> reports of train crews making extra efforts to give >>good service to freight >> shippers because they think management may actually >>care about both the >> workers and their customers. >> >> Carpenter, at the top of the railroad, has been an >>enthusiastic supporter. >> >> "I don't think this will be an easy thing to do," said >>Carpenter, a former >> brakeman himself. But he said a cultural change is >>necessary because the >> railroad cannot provide the kind of service it must >>provide with "a dispirited >> work force." >> >> The man running railroad operations, Conway, said the >>new program is a key >> part of the rehabilitation of CSX. >> >> "This is not the flavor of the month," Conway said. >>"It isn't going away." >> >> Officials of other railroads, Wall Street analysts and >>other insiders say they >> are generally encouraged by the changes taking place >>at CSX, although they >> express some skepticism about a railroad that seems to >>undergo a >> reorganization every few years. >> >> "The question is, can they stick with it this time?" >>said a top official at >> another railroad, who did not want to be named. >> >> Most people agreed that this reorganization is >>different from previous ones. >> In fact, in some ways it is a reversal of >>reorganizations in which the >> company tried to stop acting like a railroad and >>instead be a full-service >> world transportation conglomerate with a railroad, a >>ship line, a barge line >> and logistics services. Along the way, some of the >>operating and service >> systems that were layered on the railroad simply >>created confusion. >> >> The nascent changes are impressing some veteran >>railroad watchers. >> Anthony Hatch, a longtime analyst, and Jim Valentine >>of Morgan Stanley >> Dean Witter said in separate interviews that CSX is >>getting back to the >> fundamentals of railroading, when steam locomotives >>and early-century >> technology often produced faster and better service >>than today. >> >> Valentine said the transition will be painful, partly >>because CSX and all >> railroads must stop thinking in terms of cost-cutting, >>and instead concentrate >> on service and long-term growth. >> >> Hatch, calling the new changes "a radical event in >>this corporate history," >> said it is too early to tell if CSX will be >>successful, but it is plain where the >> railroad is headed. >> >> "Clearly they felt the history of this company once >>again would be written as >> a railroad," Hatch said. >> >> "They're trying to get back to the old days," >>Valentine said. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:47:05 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR L1 Jeremy and all, I have the Keystone from Sep 1980 which featured the L1 class. There are many pictures with captions, but NO listing of all engines. >From your list of road numbers to check, I can verify that the following road numbers are authentic from pictures: 952, 305, 3276, 1627, 110, 1752 (the very first L1), 1695, 4190, and 559. Photos in the Keystone verify that some tenders had the one man doghouse, while others had the larger one. There are some photos from 1937 & 1938 which show NO doghouse (yet). Dennis S. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 00:35:38 EST Subject: [PRR] New Bachmann K4 Following up the discussions on the above, can anyone recommend a dealer who has one in stock at a reasonable price? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] New Bachmann K4 Date: Fri, 8 Jan 99 06:11:24 -0500 From: Jerry On 1/8/99 12:35 AM, Bobspf@aol.com (Bobspf@aol.com) wrote: >Following up the discussions on the above, can anyone recommend a dealer who >has one in stock at a reasonable price? "Merchandise Service" has both road numbers in stock for $88 each. That's your call as to whether or not it is a "reasonable price" at 20% off. http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: OnTrackHby@aol.com Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 03:09:15 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] CSX-NS-CR Matters In a message dated 99-01-07 22:10:04 EST, you write: << SPF list I don't know how many of you all are interested in real railroading in addition to 4/3/1 box car ends, X43's, FCR, track pans, wrecked GG1s etc. If you are you may find this lengthy message of interest if not just delete it. It deals with the break up of CR and how CSX and NS are progressing. Mostly about CSX. Al - FPE >> Al; Interesting information. Sounds to me like Penn Central all over again! LOL Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Photos Date: Fri, 8 Jan 99 08:00:07 -0500 From: Jerry I remember a while back someone looking for a photo of Renovo. If you haven't noticed, about three months ago Bowser's web site started a photo library. Here are some notable pics: Renovo: http://www.bowser-trains.com/Photo%20Library/Photos%20100001-200/100068.JPG Loco at Newberry PA engine house: http://www.bowser-trains.com/Photo%20Library/Photos%20100001-200/100091.JPG Aerial shot of PRR passenger station in Williamsport: http://www.bowser-trains.com/Photo%20Library/Photos%20100001-200/100200.JPG Aerial shot of PRR yard in Williamsport: http://www.bowser-trains.com/Photo%20Library/Photos%20100001-200/100202.JPG Renovo freight yard: http://www.bowser-trains.com/Photo%20Library/Photos%20100001-200/100157.JPG PRR gas electric 4661: http://www.bowser-trains.com/Photo%20Library/Photos%20100001-200/100217.JPG All for now... ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew Harmantas" Subject: [PRR] box cars and grain Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 06:02:59 PST Correct, for most of American railraod history, loose grain was carried in box cars. My post about covered hoppers carrying inbound grain was current era stuff, specifically to amplify Hank Mummert's post about the Busch Brewery in Williamsburg, VA. Looking back a few decades, anybody recall the big grain "deal" with the Soviets, where we shipped thousands of trainloads of wheat to sea ports? I saw "grain extras" operating on the =WM= and the B&O during the early 1960's, consisting of 40' boxcars. This was all export grain headed for B'more. These were the common grain carriers back then. They filled them to about two feet from the top, and had a heavy cardboard seal that got stapled to either side of the door. One of the major manufacturers of this grain sealing system was Signode. Andrew Harmantas, Artist, Illustrator, Wold Traveler, Lecturer, and Bum. ____________________________________ >If it is of any interest, grain arrived at the Shredded Wheat plant in >Niagara Falls in box cars...unless you are modeling a specific site, you >may have options. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:19:47 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] box cars and grain ***and, if my memory serves, the PRR was involved in a huge storage project when a grain deal fell thru.....have to look up. BTW, most places where grain / corn was stored, featured Rats as big as dawgs, something to ponder while drilling those facilities..~!!!! Bill*** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] box cars and grain Date: Fri, 8 Jan 99 12:10:06 -0500 From: Jerry On 1/8/99 10:38 AM, Bobspf@aol.com (Bobspf@aol.com) wrote: >In a message dated 1/8/99 8:17:17 AM Central Standard Time, >frisco484@hotmail.com writes: > ><< I saw "grain extras" operating on First it was box cars and beer. Now it's box cars and grain. Next it'll be wine. Is this a Happy Hours list or what? ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] FWD: History of the Belmont-Zoo connection in Philly? From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E Allen) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 12:03:33 EST This was on the Railroad list. Any contributions? MEA --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- From: Ben Russell To: RAILROAD@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU Subject: History of the Belmont-Zoo connection in Philly? Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 15:14:51 -0500 Message-ID: <199901072015.PAAAA25767@mx2.boston.juno.com> Does anyone out there know the history behind the RDG-PRR Belmont-Zoo connection track? Today, this section of track is pretty important to CR operations in Philly. In "yesteryear", did B&O passenger trains operate through this connection? Was this a major freight interchange for PRR(PC) and RDG? What was the connections main use? Who built it? Yadda yadda yadda as they said in Seinfeld land. Tales anyone? ========================================= Ben Russell E-mail: brussell@say.acnatsci.org ========================================= Patrick Center for Environmental Research The Academy of Natural Sciences 1900 Benjamin Franklin Parkway Philadelphia, PA 19103 work phone: 215-299-1087 http://www.acnatsci.org/research/pcer/ ========================================= --------- End forwarded message ---------- ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:38:17 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] box cars and grain In a message dated 1/8/99 8:17:17 AM Central Standard Time, frisco484@hotmail.com writes: << I saw "grain extras" operating on the =WM= and the B&O during the early 1960's, consisting of 40' boxcars. This was all export grain headed for B'more. These were the common grain carriers back then. They filled them to about two feet from the top, and had a heavy cardboard seal that got stapled to either side of the door. One of the major manufacturers of this grain sealing system was Signode. >> Don't remember the year, suspect it was about 1960, but PRR and SOO instituted a new runthrough unit grain train of boxcars about that time. As I recall, the ratio of PRR to SOO in the pool was about 2:1, but could have been the opposite. A SOO fan might be able to date it better because the cars they contributed were 40 footers in boxcar red with billboard SOO lettering. There is a photo in the news section of Trains magazine in an issue in that era. The Signode (and other) grain doors are available from a couple of sources in HO. Another club member and myself have some GN 40 footers so equipped. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 11:56:53 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: box cars and grain There was a detailed modeling article in one of the magazines a few years back. If anyone is interested I'll try to find it. Steve Bartlett Andrew Harmantas wrote: > ..... consisting of 40' boxcars. > ...These were the common > grain carriers back then. They filled them to about two feet from the > top, and had a heavy cardboard seal that got stapled to either side of > the door. One of the major manufacturers of this grain sealing system > was Signode........ > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:03:03 -0500 From: bobp@tsc.com (Bob Poortinga) Subject: Re: [PRR] CSX-NS-CR Matters Reports from various sources tell me that once CSX finished their double tracking project in Indiana, the contractor then went to work on the former PRR (PFW&C) main line from Hobart, IN to Gary, IN. It has apparently been completely rehabed and resurfaced, and has new grade crossing protection. CSX gets the whole PFW&C from Crestline, OH to Gary, IN from NS as part of the Conrail nerger. At this point, I am not sure if the rehab extends from Tolleston to Clarke Jct on the very west end. Anyone know for sure? -- Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) Bloomington, Indiana USA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:40:58 -0500 (EST) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] box cars and grain Heck when I worked at the ConAgra Mill in Buffalo NY for the Buffalo Southern 1995-1996, the mill was STILL loading feed and other things in CR boxcars in this manner. They would use 2x4's and cardboard (came in a kit that was designed specifically for this purpose) and then when the cars were spotted the loader would cut a round hole in the the cardboard at the right height for the pipes alongside the cars and feed would be "blown" into the car under pressure until the car was almost full and then the doors would be closed. When the car arrived at it's destination the customer would either scoop out the materials by hand or use a Bobcat to unload the product....not sure if they are still doing this but in the time circa 1996 they still were On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Andrew Harmantas wrote: > Correct, for most of American railraod history, loose grain was carried > in box cars. My post about covered hoppers carrying inbound grain was > current era stuff, specifically to amplify Hank Mummert's post about the > Busch Brewery in Williamsburg, VA. Looking back a few decades, anybody > recall the big grain "deal" with the Soviets, where we shipped thousands > of trainloads of wheat to sea ports? I saw "grain extras" operating on > the =WM= and the B&O during the early 1960's, consisting of 40' boxcars. > This was all export grain headed for B'more. These were the common > grain carriers back then. They filled them to about two feet from the > top, and had a heavy cardboard seal that got stapled to either side of > the door. One of the major manufacturers of this grain sealing system > was Signode. > > Andrew Harmantas, Artist, Illustrator, Wold Traveler, Lecturer, and Bum. > ____________________________________ > > >If it is of any interest, grain arrived at the Shredded Wheat plant in > >Niagara Falls in box cars...unless you are modeling a specific site, > you > >may have options. > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > William J. Enser Co-Net Admin - Tech Supp & Validations alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Frederick Branch photos needed Date: Fri, 8 Jan 99 14:30:18 -0500 From: Jerry Some of you know, others will be hearing this for the first time. I am writing a book on "The Pennsylvania Railroad in York County, Pennsylvania" which will be published by the PRRT&HS, tentatively as the handout at the 2000 convention. It will be 80% photos, much like the two Pittsburgh books that have been done. I am looking for PRR-era photos of the Frederick Branch from downtown York to the York/Adams county line for use in this book. If you have any photos that may be of use, please contact me for possible inclusion. Full credit will be given for photos used, and I'll only need the photo for a very short period of time for high-resolution scanning. Slides are also acceptable. Thank you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: Re: [PRR] FWD: History of the Belmont-Zoo connection in Philly? Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:31:46 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: Michael E Allen To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Friday, January 08, 1999 1:17 PM Subject: [PRR] FWD: History of the Belmont-Zoo connection in Philly? >Does anyone out there know the history behind the RDG-PRR Belmont-Zoo >connection track? Today, this section of track is pretty important to >CR operations in Philly. > >In "yesteryear", did B&O passenger trains operate through this >connection? >Was this a major freight interchange for PRR(PC) and RDG? What was the >connections main use? Who built it? Yadda yadda yadda as they said in >Seinfeld land. > >Tales anyone? When I was working the Philadelphia Division in the 1960s it was a PRR/RDG interchange track not in very good condition. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Wrightsville Branch Photos Needed Date: Fri, 8 Jan 99 14:29:36 -0500 From: Jerry Some of you know, others will be hearing this for the first time. I am writing a book on "The Pennsylvania Railroad in York County, Pennsylvania" which will be published by the PRRT&HS, tentatively as the handout at the 2000 convention. It will be 80% photos, much like the two Pittsburgh books that have been done. I am looking for PRR-era photos of the Wrightsville Branch (a.k.a. York Secondary) for use in this book. If you have any photos that may be of use, please contact me for possible inclusion. Full credit will be given for photos used, and I'll only need the photo for a very short period of time for high-resolution scanning. Slides are also acceptable. Thank you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: [PRR] FWD: History of the Belmont-Zoo connection in Philly? Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:16:28 -0800 I can't add much to the specific questions. But I can add a small tidbit: I have seen a photograph in which there were two tracks on the Belmont connection right in front of the tower. It must have been a publicity photograph, because it showed a K4 and streamlined K4 deliberately posed right next to each other on these tracks. I couldn't tell the extent of double trackage. I don't know if there is even room for double track underneath the Berry tracks. The photo was taken from the embankment pretty close to the Belmont Branch Subway (?) looking west. The riverline duckunder was clearly visible in the background along with the WB track leading to NY-Broad subway, so there was no mistaking that there really were two tracks. Clearly, the belmont branch must have had more importance in earlier years. John > ---------- > From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com[SMTP:ptrmgtsvc@juno.com] > Sent: Friday, January 08, 1999 9:03 AM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] FWD: History of the Belmont-Zoo connection in Philly? > > This was on the Railroad list. > Any contributions? > MEA > --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- > From: Ben Russell > To: RAILROAD@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU > Subject: History of the Belmont-Zoo connection in Philly? > Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 15:14:51 -0500 > Message-ID: <199901072015.PAAAA25767@mx2.boston.juno.com> > > Does anyone out there know the history behind the RDG-PRR Belmont-Zoo > connection track? Today, this section of track is pretty important to > CR > operations in Philly. > > In "yesteryear", did B&O passenger trains operate through this > connection? > Was this a major freight interchange for PRR(PC) and RDG? What was the > connections main use? Who built it? Yadda yadda yadda as they said in > Seinfeld land. > > Tales anyone? > > > > > ========================================= > Ben Russell > E-mail: brussell@say.acnatsci.org > ========================================= > Patrick Center for Environmental Research > The Academy of Natural Sciences > 1900 Benjamin Franklin Parkway > Philadelphia, PA 19103 > work phone: 215-299-1087 > http://www.acnatsci.org/research/pcer/ > ========================================= > > --------- End forwarded message ---------- > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ken Reinert Subject: Re: [PRR] box cars and grain Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:49:47 -0500 (EST) PRRSignals@aol.com wrote: > BTW, most places where grain / corn was stored, featured Rats as big as > dawgs, Um, weren't they called "trainmasters" or something, some form of management? :-) Ken ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Atglen & Susquehanna Branch photos needed Date: Fri, 8 Jan 99 14:33:17 -0500 From: Jerry Some of you know, others will be hearing this for the first time. I am writing a book on "The Pennsylvania Railroad in York County, Pennsylvania" which will be published by the PRRT&HS, tentatively as the handout at the 2000 convention. It will be 80% photos, much like the two Pittsburgh books that have been done. I am looking for PRR-era photos of the Atglen & Susquehanna Branch from the Shocks Mill Bridge north to the Cumberland/York county line for use in this book. If you have any photos that may be of use, please contact me for possible inclusion. Full credit will be given for photos used, and I'll only need the photo for a very short period of time for high-resolution scanning. Slides are also acceptable. Thank you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Northern Central Branch photos needed Date: Fri, 8 Jan 99 14:33:13 -0500 From: Jerry Some of you know, others will be hearing this for the first time. I am writing a book on "The Pennsylvania Railroad in York County, Pennsylvania" which will be published by the PRRT&HS, tentatively as the handout at the 2000 convention. It will be 80% photos, much like the two Pittsburgh books that have been done. I am looking for PRR-era photos of the Northern Central Branch from downtown York through the Pennsylvania/Maryland state line for use in this book. If you have any photos that may be of use, please contact me for possible inclusion. (I am currently in talks with two major suppliers for the York through Cumerland County line stretch, but if you've got a standout shot, go ahead and contact me anyway.) Full credit will be given for photos used, and I'll only need the photo for a very short period of time for high-resolution scanning. Slides are also acceptable. Thank you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] box cars and grain Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:10:41 -0500 (EST) > ***and, if my memory serves, the PRR was involved in a huge storage project > when a grain deal fell thru.....have to look up. > > BTW, most places where grain / corn was stored, featured Rats as big as dawgs, > something to ponder while drilling those facilities..~!!!! Bill*** And that wonderful rotting grain smell, something I only could *truly* appreciate only after moving to the Midwest. Unfortunately, despite "New Car" scent being available in a can for you to spruce up your '67 Dodge, "Rotting Grain" does not seem to be available for the sprucing up of your model version of the I&F or Joliet branches ... :-) -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: Re: [PRR] box cars and grain Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:11:52 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: Jerry To: PRR-Talk Date: Friday, January 08, 1999 1:51 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] box cars and grain Jerry wrote: >First it was box cars and beer. Now it's box cars and grain. Next it'll >be wine. > Actually now that you mention it there is a wine distributor in the Hainesport Industrial Park (NJ) on the old PRR Mt. Holly branch that receives wine by box car, usually ATSF 50 footers. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] PRR Postcards Date: Fri, 8 Jan 99 14:13:51 -0500 From: Jerry Currently on eBay, there is a guy selling off 61 PRR postcards, each separately. I don't collect much railroadiana, so I'm not interested. Of course, however, I did download all the pics for posting on Keystone Crossings! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Laird, Bill" Subject: RE: [PRR] box cars and grain Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:13:42 -0600 > On 1/8/99 10:38 AM, Bobspf@aol.com (Bobspf@aol.com) wrote: > > > In a message dated 1/8/99 8:17:17 AM Central Standard Time, > >frisco484@hotmail.com writes: > > > ><< I saw "grain extras" operating on > Jerry added: > First it was box cars and beer. Now it's box cars and grain. Next it'll > be wine. > > Is this a Happy Hours list or what? ;-) > A couple of years ago I had a delightful ride and dinner on the Nappa Valley Wine Train in California. Picked up an HO scale boxcar lettered for the train at their gift shop. Guess I could run that along with some of the many Red Caboose tank cars lettered for wines. Bill Laird Houston Area Live Steamers ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:03:38 EST Subject: [PRR] Lumber and Boxcars Hi Gang, Just another boxcar story. During my High School days, many moons ago, I worked for a local lumber company during my summer vacation. Then, one day a boxcar arrived on a siding and three other workers and myself were tasked to go and offload it. When we arrived at the car and discovered that we were unable to open either door, one of the guys went back to the yard office to get some crowbars. About an hour later with one door 'crowed' about two feet open, we discovered what was the matter. The car was full of everything from 2x4s to 2x12s and other sundry variants of wood including multiple splinters of sizable proportions lodged up against the doors and surrounding area. As originally loaded, I suppose, the wood was neatly stacked with the door area left open, and supported in that configuration by sheets of plywood braced by 2x4s between the pieces of plywood. There was also a large placard on the car stating "DO NOT HUMP". If this car wasn't humped somewhere along the route, then it must have been involved in an accident of epic proportion. We finally had to again return to the yard office to get some saws and cut our way into the car because the lumber from each end had interlaced itself so tightly the crowbars were useless. What a waste of what had been some of Weyerhaeuser's finest. It took us two full days to finally complete the offload. I guess some materials are or were better suited, as in grain or beer, to rail travel than others and lumber was not one of them. However, I didn't run out of Weyerhaeuser toothpicks for the entire summer. Regards, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 08 Jan 99 15:27:53 EST From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re[2]: [PRR] box cars and grain I think they were also sometimes called "assistant division engineers" as any track supervisor would testify! ;) Ted ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: [PRR] box cars and grain Author: Ken Reinert at Internet Date: 1/8/99 3:16 PM PRRSignals@aol.com wrote: > BTW, most places where grain / corn was stored, featured Rats as big as > dawgs, Um, weren't they called "trainmasters" or something, some form of management? :-) Ken ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 15:11:35 -0500 From: bobsin@nac.net Subject: Re: [PRR] FWD: History of the Belmont-Zoo connection in Philly? Don't know if any passenger trains ever ran through the freight connection, but the main route for B&O passenger service was across the river; the station was at 24th and Chestnut. Trains through to Jersey City haven't run in over forty years, but there was a steam fantrip on the route several decades ago, starting from Elizabeth NJ (CNJ station). More on topic for PRR fans, after Jersey City CNJ terminal was abandoned, Reading's two RDC trains for Philadelphia departed from Newark Penn Station, sometimes across the platform from the Pennsy's (PC's?) somewhat better known service. You bought your tickets at the CNJ window in Penn Station, at the far east end of all the windows. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Richard Biegaj Subject: [PRR] Englewood Union Station/PRR Chicago Operations Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:33:44 -0600 1. I am looking for information on Englewood Union Station, which was located at 63rd and State Street on the Southside of Chicago. Does anyone know when the station was demolished? I went there recently to find only a Conrail intermodal facility. Can anyone recommend any sources that have any good photos of the passenger station itself and the surrounding depot area. I've seen many photos of famous trains departing Englewood and stories of the Broadway Limited and the 20th Century Limited racing each other out of Englewood are legendary. However, I've never seen an actual photo of the station itself. Any recommendations would be appreciated. 2. Also, are there any good books or magazine articles anyone can suggest which focus on the Chicago Terminal Division operations of the PRR? 3. The PRR had a Chicago based subsidiary named the Western Warehousing Co. It operated a large warehouse called the Polk Street Freight Station at approximately 300 West Polk Street, just a few blocks away from Chicago Union Station. Its visible in many photos of trains departing CUS. Can anyone give me any information on this facility, including when it was demolished. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:38:43 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Atglen & Susquehanna Branch photos needed So why not just ask for all the photos in one message, instead of 10 or whatever that I could have generated by running a replace-string command over the first? -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DZJN21A@prodigy.com (MR CHARLES J CHANDLER II) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:26:30, -0500 Subject: [PRR] Wilmington Train Station Picked up a copy of MAINLINE MODELER yesterday due to someone on the list mentioning an article about the PRR Wilm. DE passenger station. This is right in my hometown so I just had to have it. Very nice article about the station (with scale drawings, pictures and a few modeling hints) and the industrial area located around it. I didn't know that the Reading, B&O and the Pennsy all had tracks in this small area- Amazing! As the author says this area is" just begging to be modeled". Unfortunately, most of the industrial area is now gone so maps and pictures would have to be used. On the plus side, the city is doing a major revitalization of the area around the station. A very nice park is now between the station and the Christina River, with a river walk being started leading to a AAA baseball stadium(Delaware Blue Rocks)and a world class exhibition center (currently featuring Czar of Russia artifacts) that now sits on what I believe was an old turntable and roundhouse area. If anyone has the chance (only about 5 miles from Mitchell's Hobby Shop) check out this well preserved example of a unique Pennsy Passenger station. Charlie C. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Atglen & Susquehanna Branch photos needed Date: Fri, 8 Jan 99 18:07:42 -0500 From: Jerry On 1/8/99 4:38 PM, Derrick J Brashear (shadow@dementia.org) wrote: >So why not just ask for all the photos in one message, instead of 10 or >whatever that I could have generated by running a replace-string command >over the first? So the SUBJECT could contain what was needed, thereby allowing someone to quickly pick it out of their mailbox if they "stored it for later" if they had to dig for photos. I have hundreds of e-mails stored that I need to act on one way or another. A meaningful subject helps retrieve the desired message quicker. 8-) ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: Re: [PRR] box cars and grain Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:53:11 -0500 Al Buchan wrote: > Actually now that you mention it there is a wine distributor in the >Hainesport Industrial Park (NJ) on the old PRR Mt. Holly branch that >receives wine by box car, usually ATSF >50 footers. Does anybody know what kind of wines go to Hainesport? L'park industriale? I'm looking for a '37 Chateau d'Yquem. If they can supply one, it certainly will remove some of the sting from "secondary" track. Does the ATSF/BNSF handle Sauternes? Is Hainesport a recognized appelation? Cuvee de la Rancocas? Dick Makse ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 01:54:43 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Lumber and Boxcars, toothpicks and happy humpers... ***Just to ad to George's neat toothpick tale, I had worked as Freight agent, and freight claims, and we inspected cars and lading for damage...not a pretty sight. Also, just to prove that the Early ConRail was really on the ball...( NOT ), look at the issue of ConRail magazine with Al Fischer ( great guy, wrong RR to work for..) up in the Hump Tower at Conway...nicely posed, huh..??? They even Removed the entire glass window just to eliminate flare / glare during this important CR Photo Shoot...and tied up the yard...!!! Look closely at the Placard on the car going Over The Hump....???? I'll bet Our Gang can guess this in 2 seconds....any others..??? Bill***** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 01:42:43 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] box cars and grain, and the dawgs....deputy and In a message dated 99-01-08 15:20:12 EST, you write: << PRRSignals@aol.com wrote: > BTW, most places where grain / corn was stored, featured Rats as big as > dawgs, Um, weren't they called "trainmasters" or something, some form of management? :-) Ken >> *****OOOh, thx Ken, for, ummmm, picking up the Bait....??!!! hahahha..bill*** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 01:31:42 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] box cars and grain and some whine...??? Turbo-whine ??? In a message dated 99-01-08 14:32:00 EST, you write: << >First it was box cars and beer. Now it's box cars and grain. Next it'll >be wine. > >> ***okay, Jerry, since you asked....Oak Island Jct, NJ saw regular tank cars of wine passing through, interchange between PRR and CNJ.....even triple dome tankers, with hi-test, cooking and Thunderbird separated....hahahha. Da bums used to hang around looking fer leaking cars, and hold cans under the leaks fer a cheap supply. And the "junk yard dawgs' walked funny, I later realized why..!!! AND...the weekend pic is the Pride of Madison Hill, not an EMD SD, but........the Reuben Wells, in a neat shot of the inauguration (?) of the PRR "Loco on Flat Car" shipping mode. ( Did John Kneiling invent this ?? haha) The "Car folks" on this list will probably check out the Flat !!! http://members.aol.com/prrsignals/PRRRUBEN.jpg HaveAGoodWeekendBill**********/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 09:25:00 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] box cars and grain, and the dawgs....deputy and Trainmasters as big as 'dawgs'??? Steve B. PRRSignals@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 99-01-08 15:20:12 EST, you write: > > Um, weren't they called "trainmasters" or something, some form of > management? :-) Ken >> > > PRRSignals@aol.com wrote: > > *****OOOh, thx Ken, for, ummmm, picking up the Bait....??!!! hahahha..bill*** > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: [PRR] Re: [pcl] Rail Classics PRR R-50b Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 09:22:26 -0500 Greetings to the group, I can speak for the factory painted Rail Classics R50b's and they are winners. Eddy even did a "two-tone" black treatment on the roof area to differentiate from painted surfaces and those treated with "roof cement" or tar coating. The Tuscan is right on in my opinion with crisp lettering including test data on the air reservoir and trust data on the carbody. Seems a shame to fire up the airbrush and weather them, but I'm sure I will. The factory painted Precision Scale R50b's look "pink" rather than Tuscan next to the Rail Classics models. These will have to get a new paint job or very heavy weathering now. If Rail Classics continues with this same quality on all of their announced projects there will be some very happy PRR modelers out there. Jerry Breon -----Original Message----- From: Ted Culotta To: pcl@railnet.nshore.org Date: Friday, January 08, 1999 5:55 PM Subject: [pcl] Rail Classics PRR R-50b >I just received one of the Rail Classics R-50b refrigerator cars and >while I haven't had a chance to get out the calipers and check the dims, >the overall appearance and fidelity to detail is quite good. I >purchased an unpainted version so I cannot comment on the quality of the >finished models. Overall, I'm pretty satisified with the model. > >Regards, >Ted > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 10:36:11 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [pcl] Rail Classics PRR R-50b Jerry Breon, Are you sure that the R50b was supposed to be the color "Tuscan". I thought that "Tuscan" was for passenger cars and that "freight car red" was for freight cars. The two colors are very different. Dennis S. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:10:31 -0500 (EST) From: Ed Turner - SE BellSouth District Subject: Re: [PRR] Rail Classics PRR R-50b I've had interest in the Rail Classics R50b's, but have thought I'm not ready to invest in brass just yet. Could someone post the suggested retail price for these cars for my reference. TIA, Ed > From: "jbreon" > To: "Ted Culotta" , > Cc: "PRR Talk" > Subject: [PRR] Re: [pcl] Rail Classics PRR R-50b > Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 09:22:26 -0500 > X-Priority: 3 > X-MSMail-Priority: Normal > X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 > List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.2 by Fog City Software, Inc. > List-Subscribe: > List-Digest: > List-Unsubscribe: > > Greetings to the group, > I can speak for the factory painted Rail Classics R50b's and they are > winners. Eddy even did a "two-tone" black treatment on the roof area to > differentiate from painted surfaces and those treated with "roof cement" or > tar coating. The Tuscan is right on in my opinion with crisp lettering > including test data on the air reservoir and trust data on the carbody. > Seems a shame to fire up the airbrush and weather them, but I'm sure I will. > The factory painted Precision Scale R50b's look "pink" rather than > Tuscan next to the Rail Classics models. These will have to get a new paint > job or very heavy weathering now. > If Rail Classics continues with this same quality on all of their > announced projects there will be some very happy PRR modelers out there. > Jerry Breon > -----Original Message----- > From: Ted Culotta > To: pcl@railnet.nshore.org > Date: Friday, January 08, 1999 5:55 PM > Subject: [pcl] Rail Classics PRR R-50b > > > >I just received one of the Rail Classics R-50b refrigerator cars and > >while I haven't had a chance to get out the calipers and check the dims, > >the overall appearance and fidelity to detail is quite good. I > >purchased an unpainted version so I cannot comment on the quality of the > >finished models. Overall, I'm pretty satisified with the model. > > > >Regards, > >Ted > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > -+-+-===-+-+- -+-+-+-+-=====-+-+-+-+- -+-+-===-+-+- | Edward F. Turner, Systems Engineer ed.turner@east.sun.com | + Sun Microsystems, Inc., Computer Systems Ph 770 360-6466 + | 3655 North Point Parkway, Alpharetta, GA 30005 Fax 770 360-6785 | -+-+-===-+-+- -+-+-+-+-=====-+-+-+-+- -+-+-===-+-+- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:54:29 EST Subject: [PRR] Painting Tips Hi Gang, Just thought I'd pass along a Web page address, I ran across in my wanderings, that might prove useful to those of us who do our own painting. It is written by someone who deals primarily in military modeling, but concerns itself with things most appropriate to the painting of any and all miniatures. It covers not only paints and their application, but also preparation, weathering, stripping, masking, do's, don'ts, etc., as well as many useful tips. The page is well set up and well written. I've always found that it's much easier, on my own mental health and patience, to learn from others and their experiences and mistakes (as I've made enough, mistakes that is, on my own.) ;-)) Site address: http://www.feist.com/~downen/TIPS/painting.html#thinner Regards, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Rail Classics PRR R-50b Date: Sat, 9 Jan 99 13:01:47 -0500 From: Jerry On 1/9/99 12:10 PM, Ed Turner - SE BellSouth District (Ed.Turner@East.Sun.COM) wrote: >Could someone post the suggested retail price for these cars for my >reference. > Around $140, depending on exact model. "Merchandise Service" is awaiting dealer information. They've got quite a few PRR products coming. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [pcl] Rail Classics PRR R-50b Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 14:19:07 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: Prr1187@aol.com To: jbreon@email.msn.com ; tculotta@pacbell.net ; pcl@railnet.nshore.org Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Saturday, January 09, 1999 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [pcl] Rail Classics PRR R-50b >Jerry Breon, >Are you sure that the R50b was supposed to be the color "Tuscan". I thought >that "Tuscan" was for passenger cars and that "freight car red" was for >freight cars. >The two colors are very different. > >Dennis S. Class R50b was used in passenger service, therefore, the tuscan color seems correct. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 16:04:46 EST From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Englewood Union Station/PRR Chicago Operations Richard: I think I can provide you with some information on what you are looking for. Response to item Number 1: I have looked and have not found any "direct" shots of Englewood Station. In Robert P. Olmsted's book "Chicago's Passenger Trains," McMillan Publications, 1982 (out of print?), there are several "partial" shots of the station. The book covers not only PRR action at Englewood, but also NYC and Rock Island action as well. According to Olmsted, the last day that the station was open for business was on April 9, 1969. I believe that it was demolished in the early '70's but I am not sure of that. When I was with Conrailin the mid 1980's, I worked for a short time out of 51st Street. At Englewood, the station was gone but the tower was still up and operating. Both ex-PRR and Rock Island tracks were still being used. The former NYC/NKP tracks that form the "Y" in the northeast quadrant of the junction were being used by Conrail in their 63rd Street intermodal yard. Response to item Number 2: Probably the best source that I can think of right now for the PRR Chicago Terminal Division is in a back issue of the PRRT&HS "Keystone." The late James J.D. Lynch Jr. wrote a very detailed article on this divison which appeared in the September 1982 "Keystone." This article also has some "partial" shots of the Englewood Station. Personal note: Englewood was one of the MOST photographed places on the western end of the Pennsy. Tons of pics with trains in them but it seems that no one bothered to photograph the station! How ironic. I think that someone out there has got photos of the station. Response to item Number 3: The Polk Street Freight Station was still standing in May 1972. This is based on the photogragh that appeared in the above referenced Keystone article. Hovever, I believe that it was raised soon thereafter to make way for the new Amtrak facility which to this day is abuzz with activity. I hope that this info helps! Ted Andrews Indianapolis, Indiana (My interest is in the Ft. Wayne Division, the South Bend Branch, and the Panhandle through Indiana) ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: [PRR] Englewood Union Station/PRR Chicago Operations Author: Richard Biegaj at Internet Date: 1/8/99 5:23 PM 1. I am looking for information on Englewood Union Station, which was located at 63rd and State Street on the Southside of Chicago. Does anyone know when the station was demolished? I went there recently to find only a Conrail intermodal facility. Can anyone recommend any sources that have any good photos of the passenger station itself and the surrounding depot area. I've seen many photos of famous trains departing Englewood and stories of the Broadway Limited and the 20th Century Limited racing each other out of Englewood are legendary. However, I've never seen an actual photo of the station itself. Any recommendations would be appreciated. 2. Also, are there any good books or magazine articles anyone can suggest which focus on the Chicago Terminal Division operations of the PRR? 3. The PRR had a Chicago based subsidiary named the Western Warehousing Co. It operated a large warehouse called the Polk Street Freight Station at approximately 300 West Polk Street, just a few blocks away from Chicago Union Station. Its visible in many photos of trains departing CUS. Can anyone give me any information on this facility, including when it was demolished. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 16:47:36 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [pcl] Rail Classics PRR R-50b In a message dated 1/9/99 9:51:56 AM Central Standard Time, Prr1187@aol.com writes: << Are you sure that the R50b was supposed to be the color "Tuscan". I thought that "Tuscan" was for passenger cars and that "freight car red" was for freight cars. >> The R50b was considered primarily a passenger car, hence the tuscan color. Although the X29s in REA and mail storage service were painted freight car color. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 16:25:47 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [pcl] Rail Classics PRR R-50b In a message dated 1/9/99 8:36:39 AM Central Standard Time, jbreon@email.msn.com writes: << The factory painted Precision Scale R50b's look "pink" rather than Tuscan next to the Rail Classics models. These will have to get a new paint job or very heavy weathering now. >> I've been trying to bite that bullet on my PSC cars, too. Mine is either brown or purple depending on the light, but I am gutless when it comes to weathering something I spent that much money on in a decorated version. But I am a runner, not a collector, and I have more dissonance with it in a crappy paint job than I do in ruining its resale value, if any, so I'm newly inspired to go at it! Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 16:16:10 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [pcl] Rail Classics PRR R-50b All: The R50b was a passenger service express reefer. Use in freight trains was the exception and generally only when no passenger service was provided to the destination. The Rail Classic Cars are the correct color and match the PRR Drift Cards perfectly. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 18:19:57 -0500 From: DjM Subject: [PRR] Saint Paris, Ohio Does anyone on the list have any photographs of PRR action at St. Paris, Ohio that they could share? Information is needed for pending modeling project. Many Thanks, -=D -- David Mikulec President, Ohio Central Lines DT&I / Springfield Southern / IG&E Rwy -- The DT&I Modelers Page http://DTI.Railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 16:45:43 -0600 Subject: [PRR] PRR F7s in N scale From: locoshop@juno.com Hello all, I am wanting to find someone that may have done a set of Kato N-scale F7s in PRR. We have a local shop up here going out of business and I can pick up a new F7A-B set for about $110 so I was going to. They are painted in SOO line colors but they would get a quick stripping and repaint. Need to find out what items should be added for details, thanks!! Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 21:44:15 EST Subject: [PRR] Quiz Time! Its been too quiet tonight on the list! So let's see if a quick quiz can generate any activity. The Pennsy had four cab units with dual headlights. We all know about the BP-20's: #5770 and #5771. What were the other two? Extra credit given (Masters Degree in PRR Diesel Locomotive Power) if you can also provide their road numbers! George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 21:38:54 -0500 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Postcards Jerry wrote: > > Currently on eBay, there is a guy selling off 61 PRR postcards, each > separately. I don't collect much railroadiana, so I'm not interested. Of > course, however, I did download all the pics for posting on Keystone > Crossings! > Jerry, Do you still have the URL of that auction? I can't seem to find it. Thanks! -- Jerry Shickler e-mail: geshick@velocity.net Visit the PRR P&E/E&P web-site at http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Kato Mikado L1 kit Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 19:10:50 -0800 I picked up a Kato n guage mikado rather cheap and wonder where I can get the kit to modify it to an L1. I believe they are sold direct from the importer/maker only. Is this correct or does someone know of a distributor that discounts them. I saw one built up at a retailer and it was nice and also very expensive!! Thanks, Greg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 22:42:09 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Quiz Time! On Sat, 9 Jan 1999 Eichhorn@aol.com wrote: > The Pennsy had four cab units with dual headlights. We all know about the > BP-20's: #5770 and #5771. What were the other two? Extra credit given (Masters > Degree in PRR Diesel Locomotive Power) if you can also provide their road > numbers! The Aerotrain units had cabs with 2 headlights (and 2 taillights!) Were they GM-T1 and GM-T2? I can't remember..... -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 22:49:43 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Quiz Time! On Sat, 9 Jan 1999 Eichhorn@aol.com wrote: > Its been too quiet tonight on the list! So let's see if a quick quiz can > generate any activity. > > The Pennsy had four cab units with dual headlights. We all know about the > BP-20's: #5770 and #5771. What were the other two? Extra credit given (Masters > Degree in PRR Diesel Locomotive Power) if you can also provide their road > numbers! Actually, on second thought, the PRR had only one of the Aerotrains; The NYC had the other, so I guess not those.... -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:43:06 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Lumber and Boxcars, toothpicks and happy humpers... In a message dated 99-01-09 10:58:20 EST, you write: << Hi... Without even seeing the picture...i bet it says..."Do not hump" Til Later Hank Mummert >> *****YUP !!! Hank wins the prize !!!! And the prize is......Dick and I will NOT tie up this chat line with discussions about the French language...!!!!...bill*** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:32:34 EST Subject: [PRR] Trainmasters in Cinncy Howdy all, I am new to the list, but I have heard a lot of good things about it. So without further delay I will jump in with a question. A fellow Pennsy fan (Rick Tipton) and myself have discussed many times whether or not the PRR used H24-66's in Cincinnati. In Pennsy Diesel Years Vol. 1 there are two photos in which the captions say they were shot in Cincinnati. However, neither one of us recognize the locals in the photos as being Cincinnati. It would stand to reason that the PRR would have used a trainmaster or two in Cincinnati due to it's being such a hot spot for PRR FM's. However, neither of us, has ever come up with any proof one way or the other. Can anyone on the list help? Stuart Thayer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Original Formula for Red Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 19:17:33 -0800 If you have followed this thread you may know that a forensic chemist says his lab routinely analyzes paints. He needs a sample about the size of a thumb print. Can anyone get this from the NX23 cabin at Altoona? I know there have been questions about the paint samples integrity. The chemist assures me that any fading or weathering to the surface of the paint is insignificant in the analysis. Therefore the paint sample will be accurate for the period prior to the MOW yellow paint scheme. I believe that puts it in the early 1950s and probably 1940s. Greg Stone PRRT&HS member Interested in any info or photos on the Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 00:15:56 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainmasters in Cinncy..??? Two-legged or twelve In a message dated 99-01-09 23:41:27 EST, you write: << r not the PRR used H24-66's in Cincinnati. In Pennsy Diesel Years Vol. 1 there are two photos in which the captions say they were shot in Cincinnati. However, neither one of us recognize the locals in the photos as being Cincinnati. It would stand to reason that the PRR would have used a tr >> ******Sorry I cannot help you on any Lines west Stuff, but I do offer this general warning: Morning Sun Books are taken by our group as simply " Picture Books", with many errors in each volume, some very gross. Since the publisher had minimal knowledge of his own territory, there is little if any cross-checking. It seems lots of folks are printing things and putting things on web sites with no research and no verification at all !!! Triumph I was very much in this category with the "Zero" track designation and Benny Tower confusion, among other errors spotted quickly by any semi- knowledgeable PRR fan. Caveat Emptor !!! Bill*** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] New Bachman K-4s From: fredrea@juno.com (Fred G Rea) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 00:09:47 EST Is there any difference (style, era etc) other than the cab #s of the new K-4s by Bachman. I may have asked this earlier or even gotten a response, If so I have lost it. If there is a difference what is it? Fred Rea ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 22:47:59 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Kato Mikado L1 kit From: locoshop@juno.com Greg and all, The kit you speak of is from GHQ. They are available either direct of through retailers. Direct price is $99.95 but Action Hobbies in Huntsville, Alabama has them listed for $90--save 10%. Action Hobbies has to order the kit I do believe though so you may want to call. I talked with GHQ recently and they are getting VERY low on these conversion kits and once they are gone, they are gone. Action Hobbies' number is 256-881-2703. I have dealt with these people a lot on my N-scale transactions of recent and have had no problems, I highly recommend them. As a tack on I must also encourage support of your local train shop whenever possible. I just found out today that our all-scale train store in Omaha is closing at the end of the month. It is now going to be a solid two and a half hour drive to a hobby shop that stocks N scale, do not take it for granted because you may lose out. But then again maybe we can talk Jerry into stocking some N scale items (like Life Like PRR GP7s and GP30s when they become available--hint, hint). On Sat, 9 Jan 1999 19:10:50 -0800 "Greg Stone" writes: >I picked up a Kato n guage mikado rather cheap and wonder where I can >get >the kit to modify it to an L1. I believe they are sold direct from >the >importer/maker only. Is this correct or does someone know of a >distributor >that discounts them. I saw one built up at a retailer and it was nice >and >also very expensive!! >Thanks, > Greg Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 00:01:16 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Quiz Time! *****The first E - 8 had dual headlights, # 5800 ....without looking.....Bill*** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 00:33:32 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Quiz Time! Eichhorn@aol.com wrote: > > Its been too quiet tonight on the list! So let's see if a quick quiz can > generate any activity. > > The Pennsy had four cab units with dual headlights. We all know about the > BP-20's: #5770 and #5771. What were the other two? Extra credit given (Masters > Degree in PRR Diesel Locomotive Power) if you can also provide their road > numbers! Greetings to George and the list: One was E8 4300 (its 1960s PC-compatible number). Dan C. Dan Cupper dan@cwix.com Psalm 22 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:37:40 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Quiz Time! From: padraice@juno.com (Patrick M Egan) The first 2 E7s. Pat Egan On Sat, 9 Jan 1999 21:44:15 EST Eichhorn@aol.com writes: >Its been too quiet tonight on the list! So let's see if a quick quiz >can >generate any activity. > >The Pennsy had four cab units with dual headlights. We all know about >the >BP-20's: #5770 and #5771. What were the other two? Extra credit given >(Masters >Degree in PRR Diesel Locomotive Power) if you can also provide their >road >numbers! > >George > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on >special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rail Classics" Subject: [PRR] Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 00:17:07 -0500 Hello PRR Fans; To answer the question regarding the color of the Rail Classics R-50b, we referenced the PRR 1928 Paint & Lettering drawing, the PRR 1943 Paint & Lettering drawing and the PRR 1952 Paint & Lettering drawing for the R-50b. They all stated "Tuscan" for body color. Also, all of these drawings called for "Buff" color for the lettering, not Gold Leaf for this car. As a side note, we have had requests for R-50b's from our web site (www.railclassics.com) Please contact your dealers, as we do not sell direct. If you are interested in our future projects, the X-40's, Z-74's or the E-6s steam locomotives reserve them now at your dealers to avoid disappointment, not getting them. We are sold out of R-50b's and also the extra trucks we imported. EDDY at RAIL CLASSICS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:36:02 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Englewood Union Station/PRR Chicago Operations From: padraice@juno.com (Patrick M Egan) I'm a little fuzzy on this - I haven't seen Englewood since the late '60s when I moved out of the neighborhood, but it seems to me that the station building was hard to photograph because of the umbrella sheds that surrounded the PRR/RI/NYC triangle (sort of ) that it was within. There was a small building under the umbrella sheds on the east end where the Pennsy and the Central came together. The Rock Island seemed to be the primary user of Englewood. The interior decoration had a definite Rock Island flavor. You might check some of the Rock Island books for pictures of the station. A favorite place for pictures of Rock trains was on the west side of the Rock, next to the Pennsy tracks. The station would be in the background. As for photographers, one of the more prolific photographers was Paul Eilenberger, who was a baggageman there. I don't recall seeing any of his pictures showing the station, either. There are a few shots showing parts of the station by Milt Nafus in Locomotive Quarterly, Fall '91, Vol. XV, No. 1. However, the shots are taken in bad weather or at night, and consequently are obscured. They are interesting in their own right, though. Pat Egan On Sat, 09 Jan 99 16:04:46 EST "Ted Andrews" writes: > Richard: > > I think I can provide you with some information on what you are >looking > for. > > Response to item Number 1: I have looked and have not found any >"direct" > shots of Englewood Station. In Robert P. Olmsted's book "Chicago's > Passenger Trains," McMillan Publications, 1982 (out of print?), there >are > several "partial" shots of the station. The book covers not only PRR > action at Englewood, but also NYC and Rock Island action as well. > According to Olmsted, the last day that the station was open for >business > was on April 9, 1969. I believe that it was demolished in the early >'70's > but I am not sure of that. When I was with Conrailin the mid 1980's, >I > worked for a short time out of 51st Street. At Englewood, the station >was > gone but the tower was still up and operating. Both ex-PRR and Rock >Island > tracks were still being used. The former NYC/NKP tracks that form the >"Y" > in the northeast quadrant of the junction were being used by Conrail >in > their 63rd Street intermodal yard. > > Response to item Number 2: Probably the best source that I can think >of > right now for the PRR Chicago Terminal Division is in a back issue of >the > PRRT&HS "Keystone." The late James J.D. Lynch Jr. wrote a very >detailed > article on this divison which appeared in the September 1982 >"Keystone." > This article also has some "partial" shots of the Englewood Station. > > Personal note: Englewood was one of the MOST photographed places on >the > western end of the Pennsy. Tons of pics with trains in them but it >seems > that no one bothered to photograph the station! How ironic. I think >that > someone out there has got photos of the station. > > Response to item Number 3: The Polk Street Freight Station was still > standing in May 1972. This is based on the photogragh that appeared >in the > above referenced Keystone article. Hovever, I believe that it was >raised > soon thereafter to make way for the new Amtrak facility which to this >day > is abuzz with activity. > > I hope that this info helps! > > > Ted Andrews > Indianapolis, Indiana > > (My interest is in the Ft. Wayne Division, the South Bend Branch, and >the > Panhandle through Indiana) > > >______________________________ Reply Separator >_________________________________ >Subject: [PRR] Englewood Union Station/PRR Chicago Operations >Author: Richard Biegaj at Internet >Date: 1/8/99 5:23 PM > > >1. I am looking for information on Englewood Union Station, which was >located at 63rd and State Street on the Southside of Chicago. Does >anyone >know when the station was demolished? I went there recently to find >only a >Conrail intermodal facility. Can anyone recommend any sources that >have any >good photos of the passenger station itself and the surrounding depot >area. >I've seen many photos of famous trains departing Englewood and stories >of >the Broadway Limited and the 20th Century Limited racing each other >out of >Englewood are legendary. However, I've never seen an actual photo of >the >station itself. Any recommendations would be appreciated. > >2. Also, are there any good books or magazine articles anyone can >suggest >which focus on the Chicago Terminal Division operations of the PRR? > >3. The PRR had a Chicago based subsidiary named the Western >Warehousing Co. >It operated a large warehouse called the Polk Street Freight Station >at >approximately 300 West Polk Street, just a few blocks away from >Chicago >Union Station. Its visible in many photos of trains departing CUS. >Can >anyone give me any information on this facility, including when it was > >demolished. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on >special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on >special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 02:04:44 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Quiz Time! In a message dated 1/9/99 9:04:18 PM Central Standard Time, Eichhorn@aol.com writes: << The Pennsy had four cab units with dual headlights. We all know about the BP-20's: #5770 and #5771. What were the other two? Extra credit given (Masters Degree in PRR Diesel Locomotive Power) if you can also provide their road numbers! >> E8s 5700 and 5701. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 02:54:56 EST Subject: [PRR] Englewood Union Station/PRR Chicago Operations There is a photo of Englewood Station on page 31, February 1946 Trains magazine in the article "Raifans' Saturday Night", one of my favorite articles of all time. As Pat Egan indicated the platform sheds block the view from three sides, so shot isn't great. The photo is credited to the Pennsylvania Railroad, so maybe someone could trace it if they had access to company files and get a better quality picture than the reproduction.. Trains gave rather elaborate credits in those days. Other photos in the article besides Company photos were taken by D. W. Yungmeyer, 5116 Dorchester Ave, Chicago (the author of the article), and P. Slager, 104 E. LaRue, Streator, Illinois. 53-year old addresses. Don't know if Kalmbach would have a photo like that available from 53 years ago. Too bad I was too young to take pictures--my dad used to board Rock Island commuter trains at Englewood when we first moved to Chicago in the Park Manor neighborhood 1945-1948. I am more familiar with the "other" Englewood where my grandparents arrived on the Wabash Bluebird from St. Louis. First color photograph I took of a train was the E-unit on the latter at that other Englewood. Probably because the Rock Island crossed the Pennsy and they stabbed each other , I never saw a Pennsy train at Englewood even when I commuted through there in the 50's. Saw the Niagaras and Hudsons and the Nickle Plate Bluebirds (PA's). Sorry for the rambling, but this topic just touched a memory nerve Bob Zoeller Fox Point, WI ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [pcl] Rail Classics PRR R-50b Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 07:59:42 -0500 Bob and all, One painting technique I use regularly is to give the finished model a very light overspray with the base color (after it is decaled and Dullcoated) to tone down the harshness of the fresh lettering. I then proceed with the weathering. This is probably what I will try first with the PSC cars using a color more similar to Rail Classics version. It will either improve their appearance or force me to strip them and start over. Maybe I should try it on only one first, huh? Incidentally, and I don't want to start a long thread on color perception, I mix one part Caboose Red to five parts Tuscan (Floquil solvent based paints) for my PRR passenger equipment. This formula gives my eyes the color that I see in photographs. I have used ModelFlex PRR Maroon just as it comes from the bottle and am pleased with it's appearance. Jerry Breon -----Original Message----- From: Bobspf@aol.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Saturday, January 09, 1999 5:00 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [pcl] Rail Classics PRR R-50b >In a message dated 1/9/99 8:36:39 AM Central Standard Time, >jbreon@email.msn.com writes: > ><< The factory painted Precision Scale R50b's look "pink" rather than > Tuscan next to the Rail Classics models. These will have to get a new paint > job or very heavy weathering now. >> > >I've been trying to bite that bullet on my PSC cars, too. Mine is either >brown or purple depending on the light, but I am gutless when it comes to >weathering something I spent that much money on in a decorated version. But I >am a runner, not a collector, and I have more dissonance with it in a crappy >paint job than I do in ruining its resale value, if any, so I'm newly inspired >to go at it! > >Bob Zoeller > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on >special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] New Bachman K-4s Date: Sun, 10 Jan 99 08:28:43 -0500 From: Jerry On 1/10/99 12:09 AM, Fred G Rea (fredrea@juno.com) wrote: >Is there any difference (style, era etc) other than the cab #s of the new >K-4s by Bachman. I may have asked this earlier or even gotten a >response, If so I have lost it. If there is a difference what is it? > I have both numbers in stock ("Merchandise Service") and have a #1361 open. I have a customer who has reserved a #3750 and I have asked for permission to open his unit. I don't like to do so otherwise. If permitted, I will report to the list. Regarding 1361, I answered many of these questions privately to Bruce Smith: * Red tender deck and cab roof * Per "Pennsy Power", page 167, this unit has the 1947-style front end * Kadee type couplers installed, including the front * DCC-ready with quick-disconnect to tender (nice!) * Sprung trailing truck * Painted engineer and fireman * Marker lamps do not have jewels, but could be easily added * Per previous post, smoke box and firebox are too clean and need "grimed up" * Side rods are painted black; they should be greased bare metal (silver/grey) Overall, very nice job. I'll probably purchase one of each for myself. 8-) Again, in stock at "Merchandise Service", both numbers, for $88 (plus $5 shipping per order, plus 6% tax if in Pa.). See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: "MS" Stocking N Scale (was Re: [PRR] Kato Mikado L1 kit) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 99 08:20:12 -0500 From: Jerry On 1/9/99 11:47 PM, locoshop@juno.com (locoshop@juno.com) wrote: >But then again maybe >we can talk Jerry into stocking some N scale items (like Life Like PRR >GP7s and GP30s when they become available--hint, hint). The track record of "Merchandise Service" is about 90% HO scale, the balance N scale. That's not by my choice or anything, that's just the way it has panned out. Due to the narrow market (10%), it is tough to determine in advance which of the hundreds of popular items I should stock...so, I stock very little. However, one distributor that I work with consistently fills orders (in my hands) within 48 hours. So, that is practically in stock. If you need something in N, give me a shot! Regarding forthcoming products (LL P2K, etc.): I will "always" accept advance reservations for these type of products, regardless of scale. Again, give me a shot. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 08:30:11 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] New Bachman K-4s From: locoshop@juno.com Fred and all, >From what I have heard of these units they are great. There have been many changes done to them. I had had one of their previous releases and it hurked and jurked all over the track and could not pull anything before doing any major work on the running gear. These new K4s run like champs. They are fashioned after the running gear on the ever so popular Spectrum Consolidation. These will , I believe, become a thorn in Bowser's side. They look nice and run very well. Again I do not have one as I am in N scale (part of that decision came from being upset at how the K-4 run and brass steam prices but that is a later story), but have personally heard they are great. On Sun, 10 Jan 1999 00:09:47 EST fredrea@juno.com (Fred G Rea) writes: >Is there any difference (style, era etc) other than the cab #s of the >new K-4s by Bachman. I may have asked this earlier or even gotten a >response, If so I have lost it. If there is a difference what is >it? > >Fred Rea Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ljgurke@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 13:17:06 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR R-50b OK, so the R-50b ran in paseenger trains. What did they carry, primarily (more specific than "refrigerated goods")? For us operators, what industries are appropriate for loading/unloading such a car? Were they set out / dropped off for/from passenger trains then put in a local freight to the final destination, or were they used between passenger terminals only? Thanks, Mike Hagan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DZJN21A@prodigy.com (MR CHARLES J CHANDLER II) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 14:24:03, -0500 Subject: [PRR] Trainstuff LLC I found an advertisement in this month's' Mainline Modeler" from a company called Trainstuff LLC advertising MP-54s & BP-20 sharks. Has anyone dealt with this company before? I am particularly interested in their MP-54 models. Has anyone bought one? If so how are their products? They advertise both HO & S scale lines. Thanks Charlie C. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] New Bachman K-4s Date: Sun, 10 Jan 99 14:24:24 -0500 From: Jerry On 1/10/99 8:28 AM, Jerry (jerry@dsop.com) wrote: >>Is there any difference (style, era etc) other than the cab #s of the new >>K-4s by Bachman. I may have asked this earlier or even gotten a >>response, If so I have lost it. If there is a difference what is it? List member Bob Zoeller has #3750 on reserve with me. He has graciously permitted me to open it to compare it with #1361. Thanks, Bob. I did not pull out #3750's tender. The only difference I could see was with the Keystone on the front end. #1361's has "1361" in it; #3750's has the interlaced "PRR" logo. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 14:57:09 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: GP7 PPR Torpedo GeeP's Hey Yuze Gize, I did a little research for you and found the following. Pennsy bought at least 4 GP-7's (EFS-15Ms) for light passenger service. They may have had more but I need to verify it with photo's. I have verified that the following units were torpedo GeeP's: 8551 to 8553 (inclusive) PRR Class: EFS-15Ms (dual cab controls) EMD Class GP-7 (phase 2) Built: 9/53 EMD B# 18666-18668 Train phone antenna mast went to PC under numbers 5952-5954 A short observation: I have found pictures of both 8551 and 8552 in the excellent book Pennsylvania Railroad's Elmira Branch by Bill Caloroso (this is a "must have" for the SPF and those interested in any Railroad in the North Central New York/Pennsylvania area) at least one is in color and a double headed set "elephant style" short hood forward. These two units appear to have been based out of the DELMARVA area during the early 50's as long as Pennsy was forced to. A typical section near the end was 8552 and one PB-70. In around 1957 or 58 at least the 8551 was reassigned to Chicago to run in the pool for the "Valpo Dummies" Valparaiso Commuters. During the PC years the 5952 and 5954 (ne: 851 and 8553) were assigned to Chicago. In the PC madness of reassignment I cannot track what happened to the 5953 (ne: 8552). As far as what goes into the area developed by the torpedo's to the roof, well my photo's are all 3/4 angle type shot's so I cannot tell. I would leave it open or a signal box until I could verify what it is exactly. The research will start when I decide to build one, for me that might be a long time as they do not appear to have been in the Panhandle to often. Same is true for my Atlas RS-1, had to have it then only to find they were seldom if ever on the Panhandle or Line West for that matter, it was more of a North Central Engine. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Six" Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainstuff LLC Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 14:53:24 -0500 Guys, I too am interested in these models, . . . particularly the BP20 Sharks. Are they worth having? How do they compare to say, . . . the Model Power/E-R BF20 Shark? I want to do a pair of these BP20s if they are worth having. Jim Six -----Original Message----- From: MR CHARLES J CHANDLER II To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Sunday, January 10, 1999 2:28 PM Subject: [PRR] Trainstuff LLC >I found an advertisement in this month's' Mainline Modeler" from a >company called Trainstuff LLC advertising MP-54s & BP-20 sharks. Has >anyone dealt with this company before? I am particularly interested >in their MP-54 models. Has anyone bought one? If so how are their >products? They advertise both HO & S scale lines. Thanks Charlie C. > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on >special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 15:37:48 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainstuff LLC On Sun, 10 Jan 1999, Jim Six wrote: > Derrick, > > I realize that the MP/E-R Shark is 4-axle. I was questioning the quality of > the BP20 compared to these older 4-axle Sharks. Sorry:-) > Tell me more about the Miracle Castings BP20 A and B Shark set. Where do I > see them and buy them? Does Miracle Castings have an e-mail address? What > about US Mail address or phone number? They have a web page http://mc.cyklone.com; They only sell through dealers. Their email address is miracle-castings@on.aibn.com, and their address is on the contact page off the top page. Pictures on their page; Mine are as yet not painted and not entirely finished otherwise, but I've seen a set finished and painted (for a club road, even) and they also looked good. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 15:03:30 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainstuff LLC On Sun, 10 Jan 1999, Jim Six wrote: > Guys, > > I too am interested in these models, . . . particularly the BP20 Sharks. > Are they worth having? How do they compare to say, . . . the Model > Power/E-R BF20 Shark? I want to do a pair of these BP20s if they are worth > having. Model Power/E-R are RF16, (PRR BF16), and are *4* axle (plus a late shark carbody). The BP20 (Baldwin DR-6-4-2000) is *6* axle, an early shark carbody like it's 4 axle cousin DR-4-4-1500. I recommend the Miracle Castings BP20 A and B if you want one; I've heard at least 2 reports that the Trainstuff BP20 is crude, but I have yet to see one. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Miracle Castings (was Re: [PRR] Trainstuff LLC) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 99 16:20:22 -0500 From: Jerry On 1/10/99 3:25 PM, Jim Six (jimsix@ncweb.com) wrote: >Tell me more about the Miracle Castings BP20 A and B Shark set. Where do I >see them and buy them? Does Miracle Castings have an e-mail address? What >about US Mail address or phone number? I am one of the few dealers MC has in the US. I do offer both A and B units. List is $99 but I sell them for $89. However, there is a backlog of orders...demand has drastically passed their ability to supply, but it is improving. I had a backlog of 27 units, but I received six yesterday. I'd estimate delivery of an order placed today to be about 2 months. They do not sell direct. However, there is a link to their web site from my "Merchandise Service" site: http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com I'd appreciate your business if you plan to order. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR R-50b Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 16:16:10 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: Ljgurke@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Sunday, January 10, 1999 1:50 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR R-50b >OK, so the R-50b ran in paseenger trains. What did they carry, primarily >(more specific than "refrigerated goods")? For us operators, what industries >are appropriate for loading/unloading such a car? Were they set out / dropped >off for/from passenger trains then put in a local freight to the final >destination, or were they used between passenger terminals only? Mike, I can remember as a kid growing up in Long Island City, NY in the 1940-50s the PRR spotting class R-50b cars on team tracks east of the big Railway Express Facility, (PXT) for unloading by Silvercup Bread. It was milk in cans and was transferred to Silvercup's red and gold semitrailers and driven to the bakery. That yard was switched by 0-6-0s and later GE 44 tonners. Not related to the R-50b situation but additional local trivia, the US Army had a big APO facility there also which I believed served as the post office for all of the units in Europe. The APO facility was built on the site of the former Madison Square Garden outdoor boxing arena on the corner of Northern Boulevard and 48th St. There was an interesting little yard there, between the APO and the LIRR Main, with six or seven stub end storage tracks. I remember during a strike the PRR stored lots of passenger equipment in that yard. I remember playing in the coaches. Later in the early 1950s they added an industrial lead eastward from 48th Street (parallel to the LIRR main line) to serve Republic Steel, Ronzoni Macaroni and Johnsons Wax warehouses. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: [PRR] active LIRR towers Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 17:12:52 -0500 We may be headed up north during my spring break, the trip will mainly be devoted to getting good footage of active block towers. A couple questions: Which block towers does LIRR still have in operation? How do I get a good look at these towers without trespassing?? TIA -Josh Trower http://xoom.members.com/NEC1/Default.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 16:56:28 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GP7 PPR Torpedo GeeP's I have a little more info to add to the discussion of the Passenger Geeps. See comments interspersed in original post: In a message dated 1/10/99 3:23:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes: << I did a little research for you and found the following. Pennsy bought at least 4 GP-7's (EFS-15Ms) for light passenger service. They may have had more but I need to verify it with photo's. I have verified that the following units were torpedo GeeP's: 8551 to 8553 (inclusive) PRR Class: EFS-15Ms (dual cab controls) EMD Class GP-7 (phase 2) Built: 9/53 EMD B# 18666-18668 Train phone antenna mast went to PC under numbers 5952-5954 A short observation: I have found pictures of both 8551 and 8552 in the excellent book Pennsylvania Railroad's Elmira Branch by Bill Caloroso (this is a "must have" for the SPF and those interested in any Railroad in the North Central New York/Pennsylvania area) at least one is in color and a double headed set "elephant style" short hood forward. These two units appear to have been based out of the DELMARVA area during the early 50's as long as Pennsy was forced to.>> I don't understand this comment. Passenger service lasted on the Pennslvania portion of the Elmira Branch until June 16, 1956. Service in New York State ended January 2, 1956, after which the passenger train made a daily round trip from Williamsport to Southport (Elmira) and back. The train was based at Williamsport, with a layover in Southport between runs. In Delmarva, according to _Rails Along the Chesapeake_, by John Hayman, "Steam generator equipped Alco RS-3's and Baldwin RS-10's and RS-12's were used to close out passenger service." <> A gas electric was also used on the Williamsport to Southport run. << In around 1957 or 58 at least the 8551 was reassigned to Chicago to run in the pool for the "Valpo Dummies" Valparaiso Commuters. During the PC years the 5952 and 5954 (ne: 851 and 8553) were assigned to Chicago. In the PC madness of reassignment I cannot track what happened to the 5953 (ne: 8552). As far as what goes into the area developed by the torpedo's to the roof, well my photo's are all 3/4 angle type shot's so I cannot tell. I would leave it open or a signal box until I could verify what it is exactly. >> The space under the frame was used for water tanks, for the steam generator. Drawings showing these details appeared in the October 1982 issue of Mainline Modeler. <> Northern Central. I suspect this will be a sooner, rather than later, project for me. I already have the Red Caboose GP-9 body kit, a couple pair of trucks, and the castings for the torpedo tubes for the roof. In O scale, of course. Then again, at the speed I get models built, it may be a long time after all. John Keel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Six" Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainstuff LLC Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 15:25:37 -0500 Derrick, I realize that the MP/E-R Shark is 4-axle. I was questioning the quality of the BP20 compared to these older 4-axle Sharks. Tell me more about the Miracle Castings BP20 A and B Shark set. Where do I see them and buy them? Does Miracle Castings have an e-mail address? What about US Mail address or phone number? Thanks, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Derrick J Brashear To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Sunday, January 10, 1999 3:08 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainstuff LLC >On Sun, 10 Jan 1999, Jim Six wrote: > >> Guys, >> >> I too am interested in these models, . . . particularly the BP20 Sharks. >> Are they worth having? How do they compare to say, . . . the Model >> Power/E-R BF20 Shark? I want to do a pair of these BP20s if they are worth >> having. > >Model Power/E-R are RF16, (PRR BF16), and are *4* axle (plus a late shark >carbody). > >The BP20 (Baldwin DR-6-4-2000) is *6* axle, an early shark carbody like >it's 4 axle cousin DR-4-4-1500. I recommend the Miracle Castings BP20 A >and B if you want one; I've heard at least 2 reports that the Trainstuff >BP20 is crude, but I have yet to see one. > >-D > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on >special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 17:44:36 EST Subject: [PRR] [MEMRA] GP7 PPR Torpedo GeeP's In a message dated 1/10/99 1:57:44 PM Central Standard Time, TGREGMRTN@AOL.COM writes: << at least one is in color and a double headed set "elephant style" short hood forward. >> I apologize for double posting my response to the MEMRA thread on this subject, but I wanted to ask Pennsy-talk people a question. Many of the photos of these early GP7s show them running short-hood forward. Were they ordered with controls for running this way or were they double controlled? Possibility occurs to me that Pennsy custom of long hood forward came after these first orders and these units were factory-configured for short-hood forward. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 18:21:56 -0500 From: Chris Brandt Subject: Re: [PRR] active LIRR towers Thomas K. Trower wrote: > We may be headed up north during my spring break, the trip will mainly be devoted to getting good footage of active block towers. > > A couple questions: > > Which block towers does LIRR still have in operation? How do I get a good look at these towers without trespassing?? > Real safe -- Take the LIRR from Penn Station to Jamaica. Sit on the North(left) side of the train and keep your eyes open. You will get a good look at Sunnyside yard, some nicely kept amber position signals and as you approach Jamaica station you will see Jay tower. Like this -- http://webcircle.com/users/cobrandt/jay.jpg btw, you need to change your URL as it appears in your .sig Cheers! -- Chris Brandt http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ogarasteam@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 20:10:50 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainstuff LLC i don't know why my message did not include the PS. They also sell the Sharknose passenger diesel with the Hobbytwon sdrive. JoeO ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ogarasteam@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 20:07:01 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainstuff LLC I recently purchase a Lima Baldwin Center cab from Hobbytown of Boston ( their ad is in MR). The shell was trainstuff and the power was a hobbytwon with a can motor. It looks great and runs good like HT has for years. I am not a rivet counter and if i was i wouldn't because i like iyt. JoeO ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 18:23:50 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] GP7 PPR Torpedo GeeP's ***per Bob Z's comments re: long / short hood being fwd, EMD built geeps as all Short hood fwd, and rr had to specify for the long hood fwd as a "difference".... All wiring, traction motor numbers etc are based on Short hood forward. Kind of confusing to the shop folks..... Consensus won out later for long hood fwd, but emd never changed. Thinking that the Psgr geeps were dual control, have to look that up...??? Bill*** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 18:14:49 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GP7 PPR Torpedo GeeP's In a message dated 99-01-10 17:03:44 EST, you write: << << In around 1957 or 58 at least the 8551 was reassigned to Chicago to run in the pool for the "Valpo Dummies" Valparaiso Commuters. During the PC years the 5952 and 5954 (ne: 851 and 8553) were assigned to Chicago. In the PC madness of reassignment I cannot track what happened to the 5953 (ne: 8552). As far a >> *****my old records show the PRR GP7 8553 being utilized on the Nellie Bly and other NY-Atl City runs when almost new in the mid 1950's to the early 1960' s demise of that service....the PRR also used the semi-rare FP7s over the P- RSL.....bill**** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WSpald3557@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 20:12:32 EST Subject: [PRR] Greensburg, Pa RR Station Does anyone have information on the present status of the Greensburg Pa Railroad Station. It was renovated and supposed to have an operating restaurant. Willar d Spalding ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] FW: prr maps Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 21:39:08 -0500 Hi all, I got this on my web page. Can anyone help Jerry out? Thanks! Rob http://prr.railfan.net -----Original Message----- From: JDodge25@aol.com [mailto:JDodge25@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 3:37 AM To: robs@railfan.net Subject: prr maps Rob, let me ask you, how can I fine a map/ layout of the PRR yard in Sodus Point,NY .My grandfather moved from Elmira to SodusPoint and worked on the railroad and My father and I still live here. thing don't look the same as they did, the old round house is still here and a yard light is still standing .I want to know what it look like when my grandfather work there . tha nks, Jerry Dodge ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] 30th Street Station photos Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 21:39:16 -0500 Hi all, I got this question on my web site... Can anyone help John out? Thanks! Rob -----Original Message----- From: John P. Cupp, Jr. [mailto:jcupp@erols.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 1998 12:14 AM To: robs@railfan.net Subject: 30th street station photos Dear Rob, You have a wounderfull web site! You must be the man to ask about any photographs available from the air of the 30th Street Station in Philadelphia. I am begining to plan an "N" scale model of the areajaround the historic train station. Photo's of the station itself are abundent, however, to design the platform around the station I need acces to detaled aerial photos of the area. Perhaps you could help me out? Thank you, John P. Cupp, Jr. jcupp@erols.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 21:21:12 -0500 From: Elliot Fishbein and/or Eileen Kolbasuk Subject: [PRR] active LIRR towers Josh and all, Before heading to the LIRR you might want to check out http://www.pipeline.com/~robertwa/lirr.html It could help you plan your trip. Elliot Fishbein ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] PRR Rubber Tired Switchers Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 22:50:36 -0500 Hi all, Is anyone else on the list interested in the PRR's Rubber tired switchers? I've always thought that they're some of the most intersting PRR switchers! I found a few great black and white photos of them and started a section on my web site devoted to them. It's at http://prr.railfan.net/RubberTiredSwitchers.html Does anyone have any information about them? A few things I'm trying to find out about them are... When were they built? When were they scrapped? How many were there? I've seen photos of the #1, #444, #445, #446, #14380, and modern units #89294, #89240 were there any others? Were any of them assigned a PRR class? Any other info is also appreciated! Has anyone ever tried modeling one? Thanks! Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 21:46:08 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Greensburg, Pa RR Station On Sun, 10 Jan 1999 WSpald3557@aol.com wrote: > Does anyone have information on the present status of the Greensburg Pa > Railroad Station. It was renovated and supposed to have an operating > restaurant. It does. Also a microbrewery, the only one in PA between Monroeville and Harrisburg. They enclosed the space between the passenger and freight stations with a glassed in area; The whole place has been nicely renovated. The biggest outdoor change is the red neon "Red Star Restaurant" sign on the building, but in all it's pretty tasteful. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Laird, Bill" Subject: RE: [PRR] Quiz Time! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 08:48:39 -0600 On Sat, Jan 9, 1999 Derrick J. Brashear wrote: >The Aerotrain units had cabs with 2 headlights (and 2 taillights!) > Were they GM-T1 and GM-T2? I can't remember..... > > - D < > Actually, the Aerotrain power unit (locomotive?) had five "headlights" arranged horizontally in a single row like this: ooOoo The center one was red in color, the other four white. The PRR unit was numbered 1000. Bill Laird Houston Area Live Steamers ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Six" Subject: [PRR] Fw: [MEMRA] PRR U25B Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:29:23 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: Jeremy Helms (SOU) To: MEMRA@LISTSERV.DARTMOUTH.EDU Date: Monday, January 11, 1999 9:16 AM Subject: [MEMRA] PRR U25B >Hello all, > >I am needing any information on which phases the PRR U25Bs were. Most >recently Atlas has redone their U25B Phase 2A and 2B. I can get some >undecorated units but only from one of these 2 phases so I was wondering >if Pennsy had any of this style. Thanks for the information on this. > >Jeremy Helms >Omaha, Nebraska >locoshop@juno.com > > ____________________________________________________________ >End of MEMRA message. >Postings: MEMRA@LISTSERV.DARTMOUTH.EDU >Commands: LISTSERV@LISTSERV.DARTMOUTH.EDU >Online Help: http://www.dartmouth.edu/~dbott/mra_faq.html >Web Search: http://listserv.dartmouth.edu/Archives/memra.html >Report problems to: MEMRA-Request@LISTSERV.DARTMOUTH.EDU > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Rubber Tired Switchers Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 07:09:54 -0500 Rob, The Clear Block Productions video "Vignettes of the PRR Vol. 1" has some coverage of one operating in the Baltimore area. Don't know what number it is. Yes, it would make an interesting model and certainly a challenge to make it operational on a layout. Jerry Breon -----Original Message----- From: Robert Schoenberg To: PRR-talk Date: Sunday, January 10, 1999 11:17 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR Rubber Tired Switchers >Hi all, > >Is anyone else on the list interested in the PRR's Rubber tired switchers? >I've always thought that they're some of the most intersting PRR switchers! >I found a few great black and white photos of them and started a section on >my web site devoted to them. It's at >http://prr.railfan.net/RubberTiredSwitchers.html Does anyone have any >information about them? >A few things I'm trying to find out about them are... >When were they built? When were they scrapped? How many were there? I've >seen photos of the #1, #444, #445, #446, #14380, and modern units #89294, >#89240 were there any others? Were any of them assigned a PRR class? Any >other info is also appreciated! > >Has anyone ever tried modeling one? > >Thanks! > >Rob > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on >special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 08:22:52 -0600 Subject: [PRR] PRR U25B From: locoshop@juno.com Hello all, I am needing any information on which phases the PRR U25Bs were. Most recently Atlas has redone their U25B Phase 2A and 2B. I can get some undecorated units but only from one of these 2 phases so I was wondering if Pennsy had any of this style. Thanks for the information on this. Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:32:38 -0500 From: tmahon@cfnh.com (Tom Mahon) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Rubber Tired Switchers jbreon wrote: > > Rob, > The Clear Block Productions video "Vignettes of the PRR Vol. 1" has > some coverage of one operating in the Baltimore area. Don't know what number > it is. Yes, it would make an interesting model and certainly a challenge to > make it operational on a layout. > Jerry Breon Good Morning All, Ever think about using a "slot car" mechanism?? There was a semi-truck set-up out a few years ago, but no flanged wheels ala the Bachmann track insector vehicles (another possible source of a power unit). You'd have to think about gearing it down or in some way improving slow speed performance since the slot car pieces were set up to race. Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:02:28 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: prr maps The Elmira Branch of the Pennsylvania Railroad book has the genreal layout of the sodus point yards. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:45:36 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Quiz Time! << The Pennsy had four cab units with dual headlights. We all know about the BP-20's: #5770 and #5771. What were the other two? Extra credit given (Masters Degree in PRR Diesel Locomotive Power) if you can also provide their road numbers! >> And the MASTER's are: Bob Zoeller and Ken McCorry with Dan Cupper (Honorable Mention) Bob and Ken identified them both correctly as E-8s, numbered 5700 and 5701. A photo of one of the units can be seen on page 110 of "Pennsy Diesel Years, Vol. 5." Dan identified one of them, as it later appeared in PC livery as E-8 # 4300. As a side note: One of the dual head-lighted BP-20's was involved in an accident sustaining front-end damage; and when repaired, it was converted back to a single headlight unit. That being the case, we end up with one oddball having a single headlight with side vents different from all of the rest of the single head-lighted versions. Anyone ever seen a photo of that one? Regards, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Postcards on eBay Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 14:42:23 -0500 From: Jerry Last week I mentioned the 60+ post cards someone was selling on eBay. Everyone has had some difficulty in finding them. Turns out, he only listed 2 under Railroadiana and the rest are under another category! I relocated the two under Railroadiana and did a "search for seller's other auctions" which brings up all of them. Try this URL: http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=bturk@spri ntmail.com That ought to help! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 15:08:21 -0500 From: tmahon@cfnh.com (Tom Mahon) Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GP7 PPR Torpedo GeeP's PRRSignals@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 99-01-10 17:03:44 EST, you write: > > << > << In around 1957 or 58 at least the 8551 was reassigned to Chicago to run in > the > pool for the "Valpo Dummies" Valparaiso Commuters. During the PC years the > 5952 and 5954 (ne: 851 and 8553) were assigned to Chicago. In the PC > madness > of reassignment I cannot track what happened to the 5953 (ne: 8552). As far > a >> > *****my old records show the PRR GP7 8553 being utilized on the Nellie Bly and > other NY-Atl City runs when almost new in the mid 1950's to the early 1960' s > demise of that service....the PRR also used the semi-rare FP7s over the P- > RSL.....bill**** Bill, Out of curiosity on the semi-rare FP-7 on the P-RSL, do you know of any photos or numbers?? I'm making an attempt to develop a layout based on the P-RSL (I grew up in Mt. Ephraim on the Grenloch branch) and I have an Atlas FP-7. I painted it in DGLE probably based on something I read somewhere or because I figured to use it in freight service. In any event, any info would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. Tom Mahon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 15:08:23 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainmasters in Cinncy In a message dated 1/9/99 11:41:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, Stuthayer@aol.com writes: > A fellow Pennsy fan (Rick Tipton) and myself have discussed many times > whether > or not the PRR used H24-66's in Cincinnati. In Pennsy Diesel Years Vol. 1 > there are two photos in which the captions say they were shot in Cincinnati. > However, neither one of us recognize the locals in the photos as being > Cincinnati. It would stand to reason that the PRR would have used a > trainmaster or two in Cincinnati due to it's being such a hot spot for PRR > FM's. However, neither of us, has ever come up with any proof one way or > the > other. Can anyone on the list help? > Much as Stuart and I would like to locate FM Trainmasters in Cincinnati, we come short on proof. The cited photos (Pennsy Diesel Years Vol. 1) have distinctive structures that don't look like any Cincy location we know, although I'd love to be wrong. I can still (almost) get away with Trainmasters on my pike, because they were known denizens of Columbus. But this leaves Stuart's Trainmaster model all dressed up with nowhere to go :^(. Rick Tipton Modeling the Panhandle west of Columbus to Dayton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:57:45 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Rubber tired switchers Hi all...and to Rob and Jerry Breon... I might not be able to add anything new to this thread but...Growing up in Baltimore i remember one of the newer switchers that worked the old former P.W. & B trackage in east Baltimore...mainly Central Ave., trackage off of Boston St. and the trackage near Fells Point. The Fells Point trackage was some of the last worked by the switchers in Baltimore as i can remember them in service in the early to mid 1980's for Conrail. These were the newer ones inherted from PRR/PC. I remember a grain elevator off of Fells Point that you would see one at on the weekends when it was'nt being used. My dad can remember the older ones that had the spoked wheels...they had a steering wheel not unlike a SHIPS wheel..I guess it made it easier to turn. Somewhere around the house i have some pictures in a magazine or book of one of the older ones in service in Baltimore. PRR and PC used a regular locomotive such as a A-5s in steam days and later Baldwin switchers such as the VO1000 and S-12 for most of this trackage..but there were many places that because of the curve restictions they could'nt go...hence the use of the rubber tired switchers. Some of these curves (especially into a building ) would as an example for a right hand curve...branch off to the left first, then cross over the main track and go off to the right. This was so in could gain a greater turning radius. It was more like trackage used in street railway layouts. Today even though much of this trackage in Baltimore is'nt used anymore you can still see much of it. If anyone wants to go see this trackage in Baltimore keep in mind that along with this trackage some of the old Baltimore trolley trackage is still in place in some places. One way to tell the difference between RR trackage and trolley trackage in Baltimore is that Baltimore's trolley trackage was laid to a wide gauge. Being 5' 4" wide. It was laid to this gauge in early years so as to provide a smooth path for carriages that shared the street with the trolley's back then. Baltimore streets (even today in some places) were paved with Belgium (sp?) blocks. Before the rubber tired switchers came into being horses were used in this service. Baltimore City also had restrictions at one time for the use locomotives in the street. One of the better known examples of this was the line on Pratt St. that ran between the old P.B. & W. President St. station and B & O's Camdem station. These restrictions were lifted sometime after the turn of the century and 1920. Although i've never seen the rail operations there...Delaware Ave. in Philadelphia was another place these switchers were used..I think this is near the present day Packer Ave. Marine Terminal in south Philly ,which i think the PRR owned at one time. The old ore dock is right next door. I got to see it about three years ago while working up there. You could see the trackage in the street there too. Not a nice area to visit. many abandoned buildings... Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:18:32 -0600 From: Dick Taylor Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRSL Grenloch Branch > Bill, > Out of curiosity on the semi-rare FP-7 on the P-RSL, do you know of any > photos or numbers?? I'm making an attempt to develop a layout based on > the P-RSL (I grew up in Mt. Ephraim on the Grenloch branch) and I have > an Atlas FP-7. I painted it in DGLE probably based on something I read > somewhere or because I figured to use it in freight service. In any > event, any info would be greatly appreciated. > > Thank you. > > Tom Mahon Tom et al Maybe over on the "mainline" through Atco they saw FP7's, but on the Grenloch branch, it was all light stuff. I grew up in Turnersville (that was before they paved over the township) and went to school in Blackwood. All I can remember going through Blackwood was BS-10' s: and 0-6-0's or 2-8-0's during the steam days. (Yes, I'm an old duffer) Here's a bit of unknown trivia re the Grenloch branch. It ended at Grenloch, but at one time there were apparently plans to extend the Grenloch branch to Bell's Lake (there was a water powered Ceresota flour mill there,) and possibly on to Williamstown. When I was a kid I could still see where the roadbed was graded and partially ballasted back in the woods . Anybody have any info on this one? I'm drawing blanks as far as when this occurred but it had to be quite a while ago. The trees growing on the right of way were of goodly size.. Regards, Dick Taylor ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:06:13 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] Current doings on "The Limited" Hello everyone, Just a quick note to let you know that I have just completed a major overhaul of "The Limited" which includes several new chapters for future development, some additional materials and further work on existing materials. All in all, the site has been cleaned up quite a bit, with a lot of loose ends tidied up, the link tree simplified and several links that have not yet been filled in being closed off. There is also a new consumer survey which has just been posted. I hope you will all drop by to see the results of the last survey (thank you again for your input) and to voice your opinion on this new one. Work on Pennsy material is still in its early stages. However, with this reorganization, PRR now covers no less than 10 separate Topics. Some of the existing material has been reorganized, but there is still a lot to do. However, with the new site structure, the last major bottlenecks have been cleared up and we can start filling in the blanks. My best to all, and remember that "The Limited" is here to tell the story of your favorite railroad, so feel free to contribute ideas, corrections, additions or materials. Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:29:14 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Drawings list Hi you all...ok As some of you know, i'm working on a master list of drawings of PRR equipment that are in various magazines. I wanted to be done with this last week , but have hit a snag. While looking at Accurail's site i noticed that some (especially older ones) don't give a given class. Anyone here have some of these that can look them up and find out what classes these are ? Below is a description of what i found. Hopefully someone here in the group has some old back issues. Even if i don't end up getting a given class for them,i'll still list them in a separate section. Remember i need a given class letter or number. PRR 4-6-0 (no class given) in Railroad Model Craftsmen 7/49 PRR Gon(no class given)Model Railroader 1/48 old PRR box car(no class given) Railroad Model Craftsmen 1/47 PRR express reefer (R-50b ?) Model Railroader 3/45 wood hopper Model Railroader 4/45 (H-31 war baby?) 2-8-0 (no class given)Model Railroader 2/44 old passenger cars (no class given)Model Railroader 7/44 old cabin car(no class given) Model Railroader 12/42 double sheathed 50 ton steel box car(X-?) Model Railroader 1/41 PRR Atlantic (no class given) E-6 or older ? Model Railroader 3/41 New Pullmans of 1938 (New Broadway of 1938 ?) Model Railroader 7/38 PRR 4-4-0 (D-?) Model Railroader 9/40 open platform coach of 1880 (i suspect PG class) Model Railroader 1/53 postal car and 44'radial roof coach (no classes given) Railroad Model Craftsmen 5/53 head end cars (no classes given) Model Railroader 10/51 PRR Gon (no class given ) Model Railroader 4/50 standard PRR diner (D-70 or D-78 ?) Model Railroader 8/49 cinder car (class ?) Railroad Model Craftsmen 6/56 1909 stock car (K-? suspect K-7) Model Railroader 3/57 1872 cabin car (no class given) Railroad Model Craftsmen 3/56 old C class 4-4-0 (what was it later) Railroad Model Craftsmen 2/64 80' coach (no class given) Railroad Model Craftsmen 7/55 1893 american (i suspect a D-13) Model Railroader 3/56 50' steel container car (G ? F ?) Railroad Model Craftsmen 5/55 0-6-0 switcher(B-?) Railroad Model Craftsmen 2/59 old time tool car (?)Model Railroader 10/59 (i have this,but still don't know the class) steel frame box car (X-?) Railroad Model Craftsmen 10/60 4-wheel bobber (N-?) Model Railroader 9/60 postal car of 1863 (was there a class for this then ?) RMC 12/61 heater car (say what?) Model Railroader 6/84 1892 baggage mail car (class ?) Model Railroader 3/87 sleeper-lounge-obs (class ?) Railroad Model Craftsmen 8/68 56 seat coach (class ?) Railroad Model Craftsmen 10/68 60' boxcar (no class given) Model Railroader 6/70 SL-parlor-obs (class ?) Railroad Model Craftsmen 8/70 Broadway plans (what cars and what year ?) NMRA Bulletin 12/77 12 roomette sleeper (class ?) Railroad Model Craftsmen 2/66 1890 coach (PG ?) Model Railroader 8/65 sleeping car (class or type ?) Mainline Modeler 5/95 PRR Gon (is this a GS class ?) Mainline Modeler 1/91 Quad hoppers (H ?) Model Railroader 8/89 ACF centerflows (what classes) Railroad Model Craftsmen 7/97 Like i said...any help will be appreciated. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:20:25 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: [PRR] Electric Questions and class clean up? Looking for some information on a PRR Class B6 number 5687? BB1 3900 - 3901 A/C built Altoona 11/1926 later B1 when separated - builder # 4080-1,4080-2 BB2 3910 to 3921 D/C built Altoona 1926 Small pantograph and third rail shoes, later rebuilt to A/C class B1. Builder # 4031-1, 4031-2 to 4036-1, 4036-2. BB3 Long Island 324 to 337 A/C built Altoona 1926 later B3. Builder # ? B1 5684 to 5697 A/C built Altoona 1934. Builder # 4257-4266, 4268, 4270, 4271 & 4273 Was the B6 a super B1? Was this a mis-print? The 1 and the 6 are not really close on the keyboard - and the list is very good with the Diesel assignments AA5, AA5a, AA5b to AA10b and so on... I got the B6 class from the 1944 MP 229. A picture of this unit is in the Penn Central Bi-Annual (was there ever a second book?) It does not look any different from the other B1s. and is classed the same in all other publications that I can find. just curious cos wsbcos.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. 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Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:48:11 -0500 From: tmahon@cfnh.com (Tom Mahon) Subject: Re: [PRR] Rubber tired switchers bubbles@visi.net wrote: > > Hi all...and to Rob and Jerry Breon... > > I might not be able to add anything new to this thread but...Growing up > in Baltimore i remember one of the newer switchers that worked the > old former P.W. & B trackage in east Baltimore...mainly Central Ave., > trackage off of Boston St. and the trackage near Fells Point. > The Fells Point trackage was some of the last worked by the switchers > in Baltimore as i can remember them in service in the early to mid > 1980's for Conrail. These were the newer ones inherted from PRR/PC. > I remember a grain elevator off of Fells Point that you would see > one at on the weekends when it was'nt being used. > I seem to recall an article in one of the model mags on this two or so years ago. RMC?? That's when I started thinking a slot car mechanism might do the trick for power. How you would control it would be a horse of a different fir department. Tom Mahon Tom Mahon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:13:46 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Electric Questions and class clean up? >Looking for some information on a PRR Class B6 number 5687? >B1 5684 to 5697 A/C built Altoona 1934. Builder # 4257-4266, 4268, 4270, >4271 & 4273 > >Was the B6 a super B1? Was this a mis-print? Wayne, No, Yes...the B-1 was the only PRR electric "switcher" The B-6 was a steamer. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] SD40/45 Horns From: fredrea@juno.com (Fred G Rea) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:33:53 EST Can anyone let me know what kind of horns were on PRR SD40/45s? Fred Rea ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Six" Subject: [PRR] model scans Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:31:22 -0500 Y'all, I am scanning each model freight car as I build it. If you would like to be included on the distribution list for scans of these completed models, let me know. A scan of each finished model will be distributed when the model is complete. Scans of the construction photos can be had upon request following receipt of the scan of the finished model. WARNING: Each scan is either 300 dpi or 400 dpi and ranges between 100K and 500K memory and can take several minutes to download, depending upon your system. You will also need imaging software to fully view them. Though Windows 95/98 includes such a program under PROGRAMS > ACCESSORIES > IMAGING, . . . I prefer to use "VuePro 32." The advantage of these scans is that they allow you to zoom-in and scroll around and see all the good and the bad of the models. I currently have scans of the following freight cars. If you would like to see any of them (if you have not already) let me know which ones. PRR F30-A flatcar PRR GS gondola car PRR H21a hopper car ACL G-7 gondola car SAL B-6 boxcar FEC AAR boxcar N&W HL hopper car All that I ask in return is your critique comments. In an on-going effort to improve the accuracy and quality of my models, I incorporate any and all reasonable (to me!) suggestions that you offer. Jim Six ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Six" Subject: [PRR] PRR X29 boxcars Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:32:02 -0500 Would someone send me the roster numbers for Pennsy X29 boxcars. I am preparing an article for Model Railroader and need this information. You will be credited for your assistance. Also, which X29s had the Merchandise Services band? If anybody has picture scans that they would e-mail to me, I would appreciate that as well. If I ask too much, just tell me to get lost. No need to flame. Thanks, Jim Six ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:26:17 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Electric Questions and class clean up? Howdy All: I should have clarified my statement: In the MP 229; steam locomotives are listed separate and electric's and diesel electric's are listed as electric locomotives. The PRR listed early diesel as AAAxxx or AAxx, like A6 - PRR built - 3905 and 3906 (gasoline - electric) A6b - PRR built - 3907 (gasoline electric) AA5 - EMD SW1 first class AAA5, then AA5, to (B-B) 6E, last class ES6 AA5a - Baldwin VO660 then (B-B) 6B, last class BS6 AA6 - EMD NW2 some also AA10B, then (B-B) 10E, last class ES10 AA10B - Baldwin VO1000, then (B-B) 10B last class BS10 The B6 that I am referring to is an electric locomotive (listed in the electric section) not to be confused with a B6sb and so on... The unit number is 5687 built Altoona 1937, builders number 4260 later PC number 4757. It was part of the last B1 batch numbers 5684 to 5697. still curious cos wsbcos.com Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. wrote: > >Looking for some information on a PRR Class B6 number 5687? > > >B1 5684 to 5697 A/C built Altoona 1934. Builder # 4257-4266, 4268, 4270, > >4271 & 4273 > > > >Was the B6 a super B1? Was this a mis-print? > > Wayne, > > No, Yes...the B-1 was the only PRR electric "switcher" The B-6 was a steamer. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry > > PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com > _ _ > / \ / \ > ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ > |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR X29 boxcars Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:51:25 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 12 Jan, "Jim Six" wrote: > Would someone send me the roster numbers for Pennsy X29 boxcars. I am > preparing an article for Model Railroader and need this information. You > will be credited for your assistance. Jim, that information can be had from Rob Schoenberg's X29 web page at http://PRR.Railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=X29 Number ranges are given, but gaps in the sequence are not (they're not in the source ORERs, either). > Also, which X29s had the Merchandise Services band? Excellent question! Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:30:28 -0500 (EST) From: bobr@tridelta.com (Bob Rothrock) Subject: [PRR] GG1 Restoration Hello everyone: FYI, the following is copied from the O scale list. Bob Rothrock > >At last week's meeting of the Board of Directors of >Illinois Railway Museum it was decided to do an >exterior restoration of PRR GG1 4927 (Amtrak 4939), >built in 1942. This locomotive was always in Brunswick >Green and still has its original grills. > >About a dozen years ago a member started this >restoration and filled the dings and holes with body >filler and then primed those places. Unfortunately, he >died before he could complete the job. No othersd have >volunteed to finish the task and the BOD decided to >have an outside firm do the job. > >It is anticipated the cost will be just under $17,000 and >donations are being solicited for this purpose. Donations >should be made to the GG1 Restricted Fund, % Illinois >Railway Museum, PO Box 427, Union, IL 60180. > >We would appreciate it if you would copy this message and >post it (with your signature) to any other RR or model >railroad news groups you might be a member of. > >See our web page at http://www.irm.org > >Sent by Joy Forsberg > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:55:13 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Electric Questions and class clean up? > Howdy All: > > I should have clarified my statement: In the MP 229; steam locomotives are listed > separate and electric's and diesel electric's are listed as electric locomotives. > The PRR listed early diesel as AAAxxx or AAxx, like > A6 - PRR built - 3905 and 3906 (gasoline - electric) > A6b - PRR built - 3907 (gasoline electric) It was built gas-electric, and was an A6. When it got the diesel, it became A6b. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: [PRR] thanks Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:47:17 -0500 Thanks to all those who gave me LIRR tower info, I hope to get some good footage on our camcorder, always nice to document such historical items. -Josh Trower P.S. if http://xoom.members.com/NEC1/htm isnt working, try www.... or members.xoom...... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:30:25 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR X29 boxcars Jim: The following are the numbers for the X29. These are taken from April 1944 ORER. X29 49314-57641 90633-92500 93995-96126 97949-103324 502000-505948 566091-574090 Some of these groups may have been larger while others have surrounding numbers assigned to other classes. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:37:50 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] B-6 or B-1 inquiring minds what to know Hi... From the Penn Central number given for this unit i would suspect that the B-6 classification is a misprint. Pennsy Power II lists various electric units in the Penn Central 4700-4791 number series both of PRR and NYC heritage. Staufer also states in the electric section of the book that there were still 5 B-1 switchers on the roster (as of 1968 ,I have a first edition of this book) 5687 (aka 4757) was probably one of them. Then as further proof ..at the end of the introduction of the electric section he lists PRR electric engines on the roster as of 4-1-66. It shows 8 B-1 engines ,No. 5687 is one of them. Pennsy Power I lists this... PRR Class B-1 Nos. 5684-5697 Altoona built 1934-35 A.C. Hope this helps end the mystery. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:38:05 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] B-6 or B-1 inquiring minds what to know Hi... From the Penn Central number given for this unit i would suspect that the B-6 classification is a misprint. Pennsy Power II lists various electric units in the Penn Central 4700-4791 number series both of PRR and NYC heritage. Staufer also states in the electric section of the book that there were still 5 B-1 switchers on the roster (as of 1968 ,I have a first edition of this book) 5687 (aka 4757) was probably one of them. Then as further proof ..at the end of the introduction of the electric section he lists PRR electric engines on the roster as of 4-1-66. It shows 8 B-1 engines ,No. 5687 is one of them. Pennsy Power I lists this... PRR Class B-1 Nos. 5684-5697 Altoona built 1934-35 A.C. Hope this helps end the mystery. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:13:05 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: [PRR] Re: B-6 or B-1 inquiring minds what to know Howdy All: Thanks for all the input, however, I was hopeing for something other than out of the Pennsy Power books (I did check all of them and more). What I was looking for is something beyoned the typical reference books. I have not found any mis-prints in the MP 229. All the other information checks out against the typical reference material. The MP 229 was apparently issued monthly ( form when to when I do not know) and it replaced the Locomotive Register ( which was discontinued in 1917?). It was apparently issued by the Motive Power department, Mr E. L. Bachman, General Superintendent Motive Power. My copy comes from Mr. W. Paul Sweet, Chairman, The Railroad Enthusiasts, Inc. in exchange for a photo of locomotive 1070. I ask the question in the hopes that someone (maybe one of the silent monitors on this list) may have a later issue of the MP 229 or the Classification and Description of Locomotives and Tenders No. 109-J issued May 15th, 1948. If not a trip to the RRMofPA or the Hagley Library may be needed. Not willing to give up yet and thank you all for your input! cos wsbcos.com bubbles@visi.net wrote: > Hi... > > From the Penn Central number given for this unit i would suspect that the B-6 > classification is a misprint. Pennsy Power II lists various electric > units in the Penn Central 4700-4791 number series both of PRR and NYC > heritage. > > Staufer also states in the electric section of the book that there were > still 5 B-1 switchers on the roster (as of 1968 ,I have a first edition > of this book) 5687 (aka 4757) was probably one of them. > Then as further proof ..at the end of the introduction of the electric > section he lists PRR electric engines on the roster as of 4-1-66. > It shows 8 B-1 engines ,No. 5687 is one of them. > > Pennsy Power I lists this... > PRR Class B-1 Nos. 5684-5697 Altoona built 1934-35 A.C. > > Hope this helps end the mystery. > > Til Later > Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:28:17 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Electric Questions and class clean up? --------------C89B16D05DDAC75EAAC23FA6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy All: Thank you Derrick for the input, however, Pennsy Power II list the conversion to diesel as taking place in 1947. My MP 229 list the unit as an A6b in 1944. I would suspect that the difference in horsepower 450 vs 400 for the A6 was enough for the PRR to assign a sub-class. This is just another of those little things that is so fascinating about railroad history in general and the PRR in particular. Still checking the MP 229 cos wsbcos.com Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > Howdy All: > > > > I should have clarified my statement: In the MP 229; steam locomotives are > listed > > separate and electric's and diesel electric's are listed as electric > locomotives. > > The PRR listed early diesel as AAAxxx or AAxx, like > > A6 - PRR built - 3905 and 3906 (gasoline - electric) > > A6b - PRR built - 3907 (gasoline electric) > > It was built gas-electric, and was an A6. When it got the diesel, it became > A6b. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --------------C89B16D05DDAC75EAAC23FA6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy All:
Thank you Derrick for the input, however, Pennsy Power II list the conversion to diesel as taking place in 1947.  My MP 229 list the unit as an A6b in 1944.  I would suspect that the difference in horsepower 450 vs 400 for the A6 was enough for the PRR to assign a sub-class.  This is just another of those little things that is so fascinating about railroad history in general and the PRR in particular.

Still checking the MP 229
cos
wsbcos.com
 

Derrick J Brashear wrote:

>  Howdy All:
>
>  I should have clarified my statement: In the MP 229; steam locomotives are
listed
>  separate and electric's and diesel electric's are listed as electric
locomotives.
>  The PRR listed early diesel as AAAxxx or AAxx, like
>  A6 - PRR built  - 3905 and 3906 (gasoline - electric)
>  A6b - PRR built - 3907  (gasoline electric)

It was built gas-electric, and was an A6. When it got the diesel, it became
A6b.

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  --------------C89B16D05DDAC75EAAC23FA6-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:06:23 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Electric Questions and class clean up? On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Wayne S. Betty wrote: > Howdy All: > Thank you Derrick for the input, however, Pennsy Power II list the conversion to > diesel as taking place in 1947. My MP 229 list the unit as an A6b in 1944. I > would suspect that the difference in horsepower 450 vs 400 for the A6 was enough > for the PRR to assign a sub-class. This is just another of those little things > that is so fascinating about railroad history in general and the PRR in > particular. PDY-1 claims (on pgae 9) it was redesignated A6b at the time of dieseling, so at any rate I didn't make it up; Obviously they were wrong, but I didn't pull it from thin air either:-) -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 00:54:47 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: B-6 or B-1 inquiring minds what to know In a message dated 99-01-12 21:27:54 EST, you write: << his list) may have a later issue of the MP 229 or the Classification and Description of Locomotives and Tenders No. 109-J issued May 15th, 1948. If not a trip to the RRMofPA or the Hagley Library may be needed. >> ***Hi, Wayne- Only thing I can find quickly is: >From the the PRR, No. 109-M, dated July 1, 1960, Classification and Description of Locomotives: Electric Loco Classes only list B 1, next line is DD 1. Same is true in the rear columnar listing. This agrees with the ETT special instructions , also.....B1 only ( after steam was gone...) Bill**** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 01:23:39 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR EMD FP7's in P-RSL Service photos... ***Okay, Tom- A quick look thru my P-RSL Library shows..... Here is a neat one for you non-FP7 folks, in 1949 they ran newly-delivered PRR F3 # 9557 ( which had front coupler covers...) in road tests towing P70's during the summer of 1949...a prototype for everything !!! PRR FP7 #4357 plus 1 on an AC Race Train....sep 1967... PRR# 4354 and it says 4368, double on ac race train, 1967.. PRR # 4367 and it says 4347, double ac on race train, 1967.. So, Tom, there are a couple of "good numbers" for you !!! Bill*** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:02:29 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] oddities from the drawings list Hi Folks... Ok...thanks to Bob and Dennis and some digging on my own i've found out what some of these are.... head end cars (no classes given) Model Railroader 10/51... classes B-60 and BM70 PRR Gon (is this a GS class ?) Mainline Modeler 1/91 class GSh 1892 Baggage -Mail car Model Railroader 3/87 class BC Quad hoppers Model Railroader 8/89 Class H-21 with clam shell doors heater car (say what?) Model Railroader 6/84 class XD 1893 american (i suspect a D-13) Model Railroader 3/56 class D-13c PRR Atlantic (no class given) E-6 or older ? Model Railroader 3/41 class E-3 PRR 4-4-0 (D-?) Model Railroader 9/40 class D-16sb old cabin car(no class given) Model Railroader 12/42 class N-6b 2-8-0 (no class given)Model Railroader 2/44 class H-3 PRR 4-6-0 (no class given) in Railroad Model Craftsmen 7/49 class G-4 1890 coach (PG ?) Model Railroader 8/65 class PF sleeper-lounge-obs (class ?) Railroad Model Craftsmen 8/68 class POS21 12 roomette sleeper (class ?) Railroad Model Craftsmen 2/66 pullman 12-1 sleeper 56 seat coach (class ?) Railroad Model Craftsmen 10/68 class P-70 modernized No.s 4244-4309 old C class 4-4-0 (what was it later) Railroad Model Craftsmen 2/64 class D-3 later ================================================================================ Now the rest of these i'm still trying to find out what classes they are...remember this list will be for all of us to use. As i've said before...even if i don't find out what classes they are i'll still list them in each catagory at the end of each listing. PRR Gon(no class given)Model Railroader 1/48 old PRR box car(no class given) Railroad Model Craftsmen 1/47 PRR express reefer (R-50b ?) Model Railroader 3/45 wood hopper Model Railroader 4/45 (H-31 war baby?) old passenger cars (no class given)Model Railroader 7/44 double sheathed 50 ton steel box car(X-?) Model Railroader 1/41 New Pullmans of 1938 (New Broadway of 1938 ?) Model Railroader 7/38 open platform coach of 1880 (i suspect PG class) Model Railroader 1/53 postal car and 44'radial roof coach (no classes given) Railroad Model Craftsmen 5/53 PRR Gon (no class given ) Model Railroader 4/50 standard PRR diner (D-70 or D-78 ?) Model Railroader 8/49 cinder car (class ?) Railroad Model Craftsmen 6/56 1909 stock car (K-? suspect K-7) Model Railroader 3/57 1872 cabin car (no class given) Railroad Model Craftsmen 3/56 80' coach (no class given) Railroad Model Craftsmen 7/55 50' steel container car (G ? F ?) Railroad Model Craftsmen 5/55 0-6-0 switcher(B-?) Railroad Model Craftsmen 2/59 old time tool car (?)Model Railroader 10/59 (i have this,but still don't know the class) steel frame box car (X-?) Railroad Model Craftsmen 10/60 4-wheel bobber (N-?) Model Railroader 9/60 postal car of 1863 (was there a class for this then ?) RMC 12/61 60' boxcar (no class given) Model Railroader 6/70 SL-parlor-obs (class ?) Railroad Model Craftsmen 8/70 Broadway plans (what cars and what year ?) NMRA Bulletin 12/77 sleeping car (class or type ?) Mainline Modeler 5/95 ACF centerflows (what classes) Railroad Model Craftsmen 7/97 are these class H-42 or H-45 type cars? If anyone knows of any plans published in the "Keystone" please let me know what class and issue/vol. Thanks...See you guys later Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 00:28:58 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] SD40/45 Horns **a real quick answer, without looking...Leslie Super -Typhon 3 chimes... Hahn's book should show them clearer... I have a down-on photo at the cliffs below Benny, have to find it..good roof detail ! That was one reason we started chasing WM Alco FA's, just to hear a GOOD Horn, the Nathan 5 chimes !!! bill**** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:31:48 -0500 From: Eric Lauterbach Subject: [PRR] Brassengine Please help me. If you have any information on The Brass Caboose, please email me personally. It would help a lot. Thanks, Eric lauterbach@peachnet.campus.mci.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: Re: [PRR] box cars and grain Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:47:07 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: Richard F. Makse To: Alan Buchan ; Jerry ; PRR-Talk Date: Friday, January 08, 1999 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] box cars and grain Dick Stated> >Does anybody know what kind of wines go to Hainesport? L'park industriale? >I'm looking for a '37 Chateau d'Yquem. If they can supply one, it certainly >will remove some of the sting from "secondary" track. Does the ATSF/BNSF >handle Sauternes? Is Hainesport a recognized appelation? Cuvee de la >Rancocas? One would hope that such an upscale "winery" as would be found in the Hainesport Industrial Park would at least have Rancocas Red, Moorestown Merlot, Pemberton Branch Port, or Burlington County Bola not to mention Hainesport HAUT Sauterne. But alas the establishment carries only a Marne Highway Manischewitz. Sorry to disappoint. By the way the tapes arrived, thanx. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cschlund@sfsu.edu Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:25:34 Subject: Re: [PRR] CDS Pennsy hopper lettering sets Hi Ron & list members, A while back, Ron wrote: > CDS has three other sets in the Pennsy section that I am curious about: > > CDS# company/class road # on diagram era > > 287 Baker-Whitely Coal Co./GLa 8101 1905 > 288 Jamison Coal & Coke Co./GLa 109 1905 > 289 Westmoreland Coal Co.GLa 2132 1914 > > Westmoreland I've read a little about. Anyone have info on the other > two? I thought I'd pass along a recent find which is slightly related to the above. An excellent photo of a PRR class GL design car used by Westmoreland Coal Company (numbered W.C.Co. 1570) appears in Freight Cars Journal Jan 1986 pg 6. Note that this is a class GL design car, NOT a class GLa, so the dry transfers may or may not be applicable. These Westmoreland cars were built to PRR designs but owned by the coal company, not the railroad. Car side is marked "RETURN TO IRWIN PENNA R.R.". Article is by Al Westerfield. - Claus -------------------------***{}***------------------------- Claus Schlund (Shop Foreman, Bernal Heights Car & Foundry) Modeling steam-era PRR in N scale - San Francisco, CA Interested in BHC&F products? Check out our no-longer-one-and-only N scale passenger car kit at http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~cschlund/models/pullman.gif ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cschlund@sfsu.edu Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:37:51 Subject: Re: [PRR] Drawings list Hi, > cinder car (class ?) Railroad Model Craftsmen 6/56 This one is a class GP or GPa cinder car. I have a copy of this issue. - Claus -------------------------***{}***------------------------- Claus Schlund (Shop Foreman, Bernal Heights Car & Foundry) Modeling steam-era PRR in N scale - San Francisco, CA Interested in BHC&F products? Check out our no-longer-one-and-only N scale passenger car kit at http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~cschlund/models/pullman.gif ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rail Classics" Subject: [PRR] Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 19:04:28 -0500 Hello PRR Fans; I have received few inquiries from people that our web site www.railclassics.com doesn't display the dealer/link page properly. Well we have found out that if you are using IE3.0 you may have a problem for some odd reason. There doesn't appear to be a problem if you are using IE4.0 or Netscape. EDDY at RAIL CLASSICS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 21:45:14 EST Subject: [PRR] Railfan Email Lists Folks, Does anyone know the address for the listing of the various railfan email lists? I'm specificlly looking for the B&O list. Thanks much, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Railfan Email Lists Date: Thu, 14 Jan 99 06:10:49 -0500 From: Jerry On 1/13/99 9:45 PM, BPX29@aol.com (BPX29@aol.com) wrote: >Does anyone know the address for the listing of the various railfan email >lists? I'm specificlly looking for the B&O list. Thanks much, >Barry Peltier List of lists... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/lists.html ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:59:11 -0500 From: tmahon@cfnh.com (Tom Mahon) Subject: Re: [PRR] box cars and grain Alan Buchan wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard F. Makse > To: Alan Buchan ; Jerry ; > PRR-Talk > Date: Friday, January 08, 1999 7:13 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] box cars and grain > > Dick Stated> > > >Does anybody know what kind of wines go to Hainesport? L'park industriale? > >I'm looking for a '37 Chateau d'Yquem. If they can supply one, it certainly > >will remove some of the sting from "secondary" track. Does the ATSF/BNSF > >handle Sauternes? Is Hainesport a recognized appelation? Cuvee de la > >Rancocas? > > One would hope that such an upscale "winery" as would be found in the > Hainesport Industrial Park would at least have Rancocas Red, Moorestown > Merlot, Pemberton Branch Port, or Burlington County Bola not to mention > Hainesport HAUT Sauterne. But alas the establishment carries only a Marne > Highway Manischewitz. Sorry to disappoint. > > By the way the tapes arrived, thanx. > > Al Surely, the up-scale Moorestown folk would have something more pretigious than the fav of the great unwashed Merlot. Perhaps a little Florence Beaujolais, or a headdy Palmyra Cabernet, or a Riverton Zinfandel (the sight of a rather large dairy and milk producer in my day. The milk from Golden Guernsey cows.). Sorry, Jerry, couldn't resist. Used to deliver papers in the area while I was an undergrad at LaSalle. Tom Mahon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:18:17 -0500 From: tmahon@cfnh.com (Tom Mahon) Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRSL Grenloch Branch Dick Taylor wrote: > > Back on railroads for a second. When did they rip up the Grenloch branch? I left > Jersey in 60 and I think it was still there- not used but still there.Any idea? > > Regards, > Dick Taylor > Frostbyte Falls, MN Dick, Still there, as far as I know. I think they shrunk the Grenloch end, but that too was after I departed the area (1968). I thought I saw something on the list a few months ago about it. I have crossed the route on several occasions when I have returned to area to visit and the track is still there. They have really spiffed up the area around the old mill in Glouster. Somebody paid a lot for landscaping and maintenance. I think Trap Rock Industires in Runnemede (hard by the NJ Turnpike) might still be around (interesting side light, a former owner was gunned down in an office building in Cherry Hill sometime in 1970. An alleged mob hit.). They were a fairly regular customer for specialty sand. The only customer in Mt. Ephraim was a lumber yard on Kings Highway. If I get some time, I'll try to trace the route the next time I'm down there. Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: [PRR] HO N6a Cabin Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:00:18 -0600 F. S. Built up HO Quality Craft N6a cabin, number 980751, lettered for Cleveland Division. KD couplers, Central Valley sprung arch bar trucks. $25. Susquehanna Division Superintendent sez it has to go! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Richard Biegaj Subject: [PRR] September 1982 Issue of Keystone Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 15:25:25 -0600 I'm trying to obtain a copy of the September 1982 issue of the Keystone, which is not available for ordering as a back issue from the PRRT&HS. It has an article on the Pennsy's Chicago Terminal Division, which is of great interest to me. If anyone has a copy which they can photocopy and send me via US mail, I would greatly appreciate it. I will be happy to reimburse any copying and/or postage costs. If anyone can accomodate me on this, please e-mail me and I'll give you my mailing address. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: [PRR] Fw: Greensburg Station Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:21:24 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007F_01BE400C.387F3AC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The following reply was sent to WSpald3557. Since it may be of general = interest, I sent it to all. -----Original Message----- From: Carl Izzo To: WSpald3557@aol.com Date: Thursday, January 14, 1999 9:13 PM Subject: Greensburg Station =20 =20 "You had to ask!" =20 The Greensburg PRR Station has been renovated. In addition to the = restaurant, there is a microbrewery operating in the station. =20 I worked with the architect to provide the correct color scheme for = the exterior painted surfaces. Then he used my PRR Color Drift Control = cards to color match the paints at Sherwin-Williams. The tower clock = was repaired and installed. The Village of Greensburg was a wonderful = place to be. =20 All of a sudden, the beautifully restored station became an = abomination. High on the clock tower appeared a sign spelling out in = garish neon letters, "Red Star". Now I know the true meaning of = commercialism. =20 I really sorry I got involved. I should have just let them paint it = Penn Central Green, as they intended. =20 Carl P. Izzo Industrial Paint Consultant=20 ------=_NextPart_000_007F_01BE400C.387F3AC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
The following reply was sent to=20 WSpald3557.  Since it may be of general interest, I sent it to=20 all.
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Carl Izzo <CPIZZO@worldnet.att.net>To:=20 WSpald3557@aol.com = <WSpald3557@aol.com>
Date:= =20 Thursday, January 14, 1999 9:13 PM
Subject: Greensburg = Station

"You had to = ask!"
 
The Greensburg PRR Station has = been=20 renovated. In addition to the = restaurant, there=20 is a microbrewery operating in the station.
 
I worked with the architect to = provide the=20 correct color scheme for the exterior painted surfaces.  Then = he used=20 my PRR Color Drift Control cards to color match the paints at=20 Sherwin-Williams.  The tower clock was repaired and = installed. =20 The Village of Greensburg was a wonderful place to be.
 
All of a sudden, the beautifully restored = station became=20 an abomination.  High on the clock tower appeared a sign = spelling out=20 in garish neon letters, "Red Star".  Now I know the = true=20 meaning of commercialism.
 
I really sorry I got involved.  I should = have just=20 let them paint it Penn Central Green, as they intended.
 
Carl P. = Izzo
Industrial Paint=20 Consultant 
------=_NextPart_000_007F_01BE400C.387F3AC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] PSU Football and PRRT&HS Convention Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 09:02:06 -0500 From: Jerry More talk on the local news last night (WHTM TV-27, Harrisburg) indicating that Penn State will indeed host the 1999 Pigskin Classic to kick off the football season. Now the opponent is slated to be Arizona, not Georgia Tech as previously mentioned. "Why is this posted to this list?" you may ask. The game IS scheduled for the afternoon of August 28th in the early afternoon. The venue is Beaver Stadium, State College, Pa., just 45 minutes away from Altoona, where the 1999 national convention of the PRRT&HS will be taking place. There will be a run on hotel rooms... so reserve now!!! I have some hotel information on my "Timetable" page. See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/timetable.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] Future bowser cars... Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:56:09 -0500 The Bowser web page lists the following as "items at the moldmaker." No indication of timeframe for delivery is given... Looks like they're mainly just rework of existing cars... PRR K-9 50' Stock Car PRR X-31F 'Turtle Roof Box Car" PRR X-33 Automoble Box Car with end doors H-21 Hopper with clam shell hopper doors H-22 Hopper with clam shell Hopper Doors - "Coke Car" Rob http://prr.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] oddities from the drawings list From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 12:28:09 -0500 . . . 56 seat coach (class ?) Railroad Model Craftsmen 10/68 class P-70 modernized No.s 4244-4309 ====== This was a P70K built in the late 30s for overnite service on the Jeffersonian and Trailblazer. They were replaced after the war by the P85B's. They were then downgraded to the lesser long distance trains. regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:23:16 EST Subject: [PRR] Passenger Car/ Pennsy Goods Sold Folks, Thanks to everyone who made an inquiry or order. Everything is either delivered or on the way, and I hope I have answered everyone's questions. If not, it's not intentional, but I was really flooded with email for a while and may have accidently deleted something I shouldn't have. If so, please let me know and I'll get right back with ya. Again, thanks to everyone. Best regards, Barry Peltier ST. Paul, MN ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:57:41 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] Future bowser cars... --On Fre, 15. Jan 1999 10:56 -0500 "Robert Schoenberg" wrote: > The Bowser web page lists the following as "items at the moldmaker." No > indication of timeframe for delivery is given... Looks like they're mainly > just rework of existing cars... > > PRR K-9 50' Stock Car > PRR X-31F 'Turtle Roof Box Car" > PRR X-33 Automoble Box Car with end doors > H-21 Hopper with clam shell hopper doors > H-22 Hopper with clam shell Hopper Doors - "Coke Car" Perhaps the above are 'just reworks' but WHAT IMPORTANT REWORKS THEY ARE! The H-21 as-builts lead me to ask, is there a source for the flat stamped or forged bar metal, top-mounted coupler cut levers that predominated on PRR equipment before the advent of bottom-mounted rods. Pre-war freight trains with unmodernized cars, especially, should feature the former and, aside from the brass levers the Bill Hoffman makes for EBT modelers (HOn3) and the plastic versions included with the C&BT shops EBT hoppers, I have not seen these available. If we're going to run Accurail X26's, Sunshine X28's, Red Caboose X29's, Bowser H21's, and Athearn H31 1/2's in the '30's, the older cut levers would be a welcome addition to the detail parts market. Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Coupler Bars Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:32:38 -0800 I would be interested in brass coupler cut bars....in "O" scale! Greg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: [PRR] Abominations Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 00:13:34 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01BE40E5.0E721AC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Apologies to all! Not only was the Greensburg Station an abomination because of the "Red = Star" neon sign on the clock tower, so was my message. I resurrected = the message from my "Deleted Items" file. Consequently, what I saw in = not what you got. Carl P. Izzo ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01BE40E5.0E721AC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Apologies to all!
 
Not only was the Greensburg Station = an=20 abomination because of the "Red Star" neon sign on the clock = tower, so=20 was my message.  I resurrected the message from my "Deleted=20 Items" file.  Consequently, what I saw in not what you=20 got.
 
Carl P. = Izzo
------=_NextPart_000_003E_01BE40E5.0E721AC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 08:59:55 EST Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention I just made reservations an the Station Inn in Cresson. I was just wondering if anyone on the list has stayed there before? If so, how are the accommodations? Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention Date: Sat, 16 Jan 99 11:17:50 -0500 From: Jerry On 1/16/99 8:59 AM, CENTGA@aol.com (CENTGA@aol.com) wrote: >I just made reservations an the Station Inn in Cresson. I was just wondering >if anyone on the list has stayed there before? If so, how are the >accommodations? I haven't stayed there, but I've stopped in. It has a very nice porch -- at track level -- filled with rockers from which to watch the main line across the street. There's a lounge inside with tons of rr stuff. However, I believe the rooms are not air conditioned and it will be August! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: Re: [PRR] Abominations Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 13:37:53 -0500 Dear William: Thank you for pointing out the error and solution. Just because I've had a computer at home for 15 years, am 66 years old and am an internationally known paint consultant doesn't mean I'm smart. I just got my newest computer at year-end and transferred my ATT account. Since I didn't change anything to intentionally send in HTML format it must have been set up that way. The abominable message was the first sent to PRR-Talk with the new system. Fortunately, I have not sent very many E-mail messages in 1999. Thank you again for setting me straight. Carl P. Izzo -----Original Message----- From: alcoman To: Carl Izzo Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 8:54 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Abominations >Dear Carl, > >A request please, could you please turn off sending HTML encoded mail to >the list. > >I see you used Outlook Express to send your mail > >If you go to Outlook Express and click on Tools, then go down to options, >then click on the send tab at the top and choose plain text for Mail >Sending format. Those of us who dont use M$ or Netscape to read our mail >only see the raw html and renders your message just about unreadable! > >Thanks! ;-) > > > >On Sat, 16 Jan 1999, Carl Izzo wrote: > >> Apologies to all! >> >> Not only was the Greensburg Station an abomination because of the "Red >> Star" neon sign on the clock tower, so was my message. I resurrected >> the message from my "Deleted Items" file. Consequently, what I saw in >> not what you got. >> >> Carl P. Izzo >> > >William J. Enser Co-Net Admin - Tech Supp & Validations >alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System >x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network >http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud >bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server > >Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 16 Jan 99 21:42:41 EST From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re[2]: [PRR] oddities from the drawings list Thank you for this information regarding the pre-war Jeffersonian and Trailblaser trains. Which reminds me... Around 1994, the Middle Division of the PRRT&HS announced plans of producing an HO scale P85 coach kit. I submitted an order for 5-6 of these coaches. The Middle Division gave status reports on the production the these kits which were soon to come out. Unfortunately, they did not. Apparently, there was a dispute over costs between the Middle Division and the mold manufacturer. I did get a refund from the Middle Division around 1995 or so. But I have not heard a thing about the pending litigation, it's results, and the availability of the P85 coaches. Does anyone know what has happened?? Ted ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: [PRR] oddities from the drawings list Author: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) at Internet Date: 1/15/99 12:28 PM . . . 56 seat coach (class ?) Railroad Model Craftsmen 10/68 class P-70 modernized No.s 4244-4309 ====== This was a P70K built in the late 30s for overnite service on the Jeffersonian and Trailblazer. They were replaced after the war by the P85B's. They were then downgraded to the lesser long distance trains. regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Michael Capone" Subject: [PRR] Atlas RS-1 Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 22:29:24 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BE419F.ABD94120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Listers, Has anyone seen the LIRR painted RS-1's? What scheme are they using and = any change to the die work? Thanks. Mike ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BE419F.ABD94120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Listers,
 
Has anyone seen the LIRR painted = RS-1's? What=20 scheme are they using and any change to the die work? = Thanks.
 
Mike
------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BE419F.ABD94120-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 01:19:06 EST Subject: [PRR] Coming up Hey Yuze Gize, I have sent Jim Six and Steve Smith the first of several photo's for the MEMRA web page. Included in the first group were a couple of shots of the X45 that I did for the upcoming article for Model Railroading. If you want copies of the photo's contact Jim and he will send them to you. They are the out takes that Randy chose not to print. It is just a little preview of good Pennsy stuff. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: [PRR] Middle Division P85BR Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 09:13:56 -0500 Greetings to the list, Ted Andrews brought up the subject of the Middle Division HO scale P85BR kits. By the way Ted, I don't believe Middle Division was or is in any way connected with the PRRT&HS. Anyway, I had also sent a reservation deposit for several of these kits back in 1993. Middle Division would send out postcards and letters updating the "status" of this project, each time pushing it further off. I finally wrote a letter to them in December of 1994 to which they promptly replied and returned my deposit monies along with a complimentary set of their very fine decals. They said that they would contact me when the kits would be ready, and that is the last time that I ever heard from them. Its a shame that these guys aren't in a position to produce more goods because the items that I have purchased from them are of excellent quality. Jerry Breon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Re[2]: [PRR] oddities from the drawings list Date: Sun, 17 Jan 99 09:08:57 -0500 From: Jerry On 1/16/99 9:42 PM, Ted Andrews (ted.andrews@woolpert.com) wrote: > Around 1994, the Middle Division of the PRRT&HS announced plans of > producing an HO scale P85 coach kit. I submitted an order for 5-6 of these > coaches. The Middle Division gave status reports on the production the > these kits which were soon to come out. Unfortunately, they did not. > Apparently, there was a dispute over costs between the Middle Division and > the mold manufacturer. I did get a refund from the Middle Division around > 1995 or so. But I have not heard a thing about the pending litigation, > it's results, and the availability of the P85 coaches. > > Does anyone know what has happened?? This all took place before I returned to the hobby. However, there is now another solution: Union Station Products makes P85 car sides which fit right on to a Eastern Car Works core kit. You can easily build up this car. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] "Triumph" Series Date: Sun, 17 Jan 99 09:06:45 -0500 From: Jerry An update from Roberts Publishing, via one of their editors: "Triumph II", as reported, is taking advance orders. It features the Philadelphia Division and will ship this spring. "Triumph III", on the Philadelphia Terminal Division, is slated for release in time for Christmas 1999. "Triumph IV" will be on the Middle Division. "Triumph V" will be on the New York Division, not the Maryland Division as previously thought. "Triumph VI" and "Triumph VII" -- not commitments on time frames or subject matter -- I can only hope they follow through with a Maryland Division book! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:54:36 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] A tale of two trains Hi Folks.... Yesterday i had a visit from my dad...while he was here we got to talking about the railroad in years past.... It was the best of times...it was the worst of times...well so to speak. Dad told me that one of the old former PRR conductors he worked with used to work the Delmarva branch. This must have happened in the 1940's or 1950's as this man was still around to tell dad later so it could'nt have happened too much earlier and since Delmarva trains were gone by 1961. This guy happened to be the conductor of one of the trains running between Wilmington,Del. and Cape Charles, Va. This was probably the "Sailor" or the "Mariner". Anyway...on this particular train were many-many rowdy sailors...there were many that were drunk and carrying on. It was so bad that there were a couple that were fighting near the rear of the train. There was a small town (Delmar,Del. ?)that the train had to pass through were the station was dead in the middle of town with houses and businesses on either side of the tracks. The conductor when the train was stopped in this town,got off and had the local sheriff called. He shortly showed up along with his Deputy. Now picture this ....He was a very short stocky man (Danny DeVito or Joe Peshsie(sp?) comes to mind. His Deputy was more like the butler from the old Adams family show...a very large tall guy. The Sheriff also carried a 2x4 with him. Keep in mind the sailors on this train...all rowdy and drunk..and fighting. The sheriff must have had quite a reputation, for as he entered the car the sailors parted like the parting of the Red Sea...The Sheriff made his way back to the end of the car where the two sailors were fighting... They stopped momentarily to look at the Sheriff and his Deputy...then the Sheriff told them all..."Its a long walk to the next station if anyone wants to give us any trouble". The two fighting sailors promtly sat down in there seats and kept quite...the others sailors did'nt say a word. The Sheriff and Deputy talked to the Conductor for a moment or two, got off and then the train continued on its way. There was'nt a peep from the sailors anymore until the train got to Cape Charles. True Story. Dad also told me about a train he worked in the late days of Penn Central and the early days of Amtrak. After Amtrak had taken over in May of 1971 the one car trains which used to run from Baltimore to Harrisburg on the old Northern Central were taken off. this train had consisted of one old E-8 unit and a single stanless steel coach. Later Amtrak used to run a train called the National Limited from New York to Kansas City with a connection from Washington that was cut into the train at Harrisburg. This was a single car train such as the old PC run Northern Central train had been. One E unit and a single coach. But instead of running on the NC this train went from Washington,up the main line to Perryville ,Md. where it went on the Port Road trackage. (It had to after Hurricane Agnes in 1972) Anyway....this was a very boring train to work. You worked this train up to Harrisburg and had to ride Greyhound back to either Washington or Baltimore to get home as there was'nt another train back south or north after it ran. The same applied if you had to work it from Harrisburg to Washington. Now why they used a E unit instead of a GG-1 i don't know...i guess Amtrak thought it a waste of power and since this happened in 1974-75 Conrail had'nt happened yet and PC still owned them. This train made no stops between Baltimore and Harrisburg. After coming off the main at Perryville the Port Road at the time as it probably is now is a single track railroad that runs along the hills and cliffs next to the Susquehanna river. There are very few grade crossings and stations between Perryville and Harrisburg. You don't see much After leaving Perryville until you get near Steelton near Harrisburg except the river,woods and the hills next to the river. There were also speed restrictions on the Port Road then so you had to run 35 MPH or so. Dad said that his Engineer for this train was a bit crazy...often he did'nt pay attention to rules and had a reputation for such. What i'm about to relate happened on the section between Perryville and Harrisburg. Dad for some reason went up to see the engineer and fireman in the engine. You could do this without much trouble as they had a E unit on this train. Any way when he got up to the cab he found both the engineer and the fireman playing cards...both of them turned away from the road...paying attention only to their cards. They must have been playing for a while as Dad knew they had gone by a signal a while back and by they layout of their cards. Dad said that if the engineer had gotten a stop signal he would have missed it...and that he would have never had seen a car or people on the tracks if it had happened. This all goes to show how bad the moral was back in those days. The engineer was'nt around much after that...I don't think dad ratted on him...but he did say something to him about it. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Middle Division P85BR Date: Sun, 17 Jan 99 15:30:30 -0500 From: Jerry On 1/17/99 9:13 AM, jbreon (jbreon@email.msn.com) wrote: > Ted Andrews brought up the subject of the Middle Division HO scale >P85BR kits. By the way Ted, I don't believe Middle Division was or is in any >way connected with the PRRT&HS. Anyway, I had also sent a reservation >deposit for several of these kits back in 1993. Middle Division would send >out postcards and letters updating the "status" of this project, each time >pushing it further off. I finally wrote a letter to them in December of 1994 >to which they promptly replied and returned my deposit monies along with a >complimentary set of their very fine decals. They said that they would >contact me when the kits would be ready, and that is the last time that I >ever heard from them. > Its a shame that these guys aren't in a position to produce more goods >because the items that I have purchased from them are of excellent quality. I didn't make the connection, but now it looks like the company "Middle Division" is one and the same as "Middle Division Decals". I asked Nick Semen, who is MDD, many times for wholesale/ordering info. He doesn't return calls and is very discourteous. He deserves to be out of business!!! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Re[4]: [PRR] oddities from the drawings list Date: Sun, 17 Jan 99 19:48:45 -0500 From: Jerry On 1/17/99 7:22 PM, Ted Andrews (ted.andrews@woolpert.com) wrote: > Thank you for this information. Have you purchased any of these car sides > from Union Station? Are they good in quality? Are they made of plastic or > brass or resin? I've done a half dozen or so, including two P85BR's. I have sides for another dozen waiting to be worked on. There are others on the list who have also used USP sides. They are styrene. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 17 Jan 99 19:22:35 EST From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re[4]: [PRR] oddities from the drawings list Jerry: Thank you for this information. Have you purchased any of these car sides from Union Station? Are they good in quality? Are they made of plastic or brass or resin? Ted ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Re[2]: [PRR] oddities from the drawings list Author: Jerry at Internet Date: 1/17/99 9:08 AM On 1/16/99 9:42 PM, Ted Andrews (ted.andrews@woolpert.com) wrote: > Around 1994, the Middle Division of the PRRT&HS announced plans of > producing an HO scale P85 coach kit. I submitted an order for 5-6 of these > coaches. The Middle Division gave status reports on the production the > these kits which were soon to come out. Unfortunately, they did not. > Apparently, there was a dispute over costs between the Middle Division and > the mold manufacturer. I did get a refund from the Middle Division around > 1995 or so. But I have not heard a thing about the pending litigation, > it's results, and the availability of the P85 coaches. > > Does anyone know what has happened?? This all took place before I returned to the hobby. However, there is now another solution: Union Station Products makes P85 car sides which fit right on to a Eastern Car Works core kit. You can easily build up this car. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:20:26 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: [PRR] Alco Products remotor kit for Boswer T-1 Hi Folks! Say, has anyone tried the Alco Products remotoring kit for the Bowser T-1? What does it cost? How well does it work? Also in n-scale, has anyone seen any Nc-5 cabooses out there? I understand fine-n-scale is supposed to make one, but I haven't seen it yet........ Thanks, Roger Elliott ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 06:11:27 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] "Triumph" Series To those of you (apparently many of you) who hated "Triumph I": Does anyone have a used copy he is willing to sell? Please respond privately. Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 04:38:56 EST Subject: [PRR] Big CR Multi-train crash.... * ***I guess the "Lines Northwest" Folks are enjoying the Detour traffic thru Detroit after that 3 train CR Chic Line pile-up near Stryker, OH ..??? Always a silver lining....**** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] "Triumph" Series Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:39:26 -0500 (EST) > An update from Roberts Publishing, via one of their editors: > "Triumph VI" and "Triumph VII" -- not commitments on time frames or > subject matter -- I can only hope they follow through with a Maryland > Division book! If they are devoting an entire book to the Philadelphia Terminal (not that it is not deserving), are they planning Triumph VIII for the Pittsburgh area alone, plus IX through XIX for Lines West? (Huh? You mean the Pennsy went west of Conway Yard? It didn't just magically leave Conway and suddenly appear at Englewood Station in Chicago??) -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ogarasteam@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 06:40:21 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco Products remotor kit for Boswer T-1 I have used the remotor kits in I1,M1a, K4 and they are excellent. The remotor kit from Bowser for a Bachman K4 converted with the Alco product is a good looking running engine. oe O ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 18 Jan 99 08:38:54 EST From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Big CR Multi-train crash.... In regards to traffic rerouting, is the Michigan Line being exclusively used or is CR using the former PRR Fort Wayne line for some of the traffic? Although NS owns it from Crestline, OH to Gary, IN, I think CR does still have trackage rights over it. The former PRR line currently is a ghost of itself being single tracked with no passing sidings and no CTC. That will change, to some extent when CSX assumes control of this line sometime this spring. I have heard that CSX has already begun work on the line near Gary. NS currently uses the PRR line between Fort Wayne and the Hobart (east of Gary) as a passing siding for westbound traffic only. This helps relieve traffic congestion on NS's principal line, the former NKP Ft. Wayne line which is single tracked with passing sidings but experiences up to 35-40 trains a day (Yikes!!) Ted ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: [PRR] Big CR Multi-train crash.... Author: PRRSignals@aol.com at Internet Date: 1/18/99 8:03 AM * ***I guess the "Lines Northwest" Folks are enjoying the Detour traffic thru Detroit after that 3 train CR Chic Line pile-up near Stryker, OH ..??? Always a silver lining....**** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] "Triumph" Series Date: Mon, 18 Jan 99 08:47:58 -0500 From: Jerry On 1/18/99 8:39 AM, Mark Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote: >If they are devoting an entire book to the Philadelphia Terminal (not that >it is not deserving), are they planning Triumph VIII for the Pittsburgh area >alone, plus IX through XIX for Lines West? > >(Huh? You mean the Pennsy went west of Conway Yard? It didn't just >magically leave Conway and suddenly appear at Englewood Station in Chicago??) Bad news for Lines Westerners...unless plans have changed, there were only seven volumes planned. Of course, they don't read "Volume x of y" so they could always add more! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 18 Jan 99 11:29:13 EST From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re[2]: [PRR] Big CR Multi-train crash.... ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: [PRR] Big CR Multi-train crash.... Author: Mark Bej at Internet Date: 1/18/99 10:46 AM > In regards to traffic rerouting, is the Michigan Line being exclusively > used or is CR using the former PRR Fort Wayne line for some of the > traffic? Although NS owns it from Crestline, OH to Gary, IN, I think CR > does still have trackage rights over it. The former PRR line currently is > a ghost of itself being single tracked with no passing sidings and no CTC. > That will change, to some extent when CSX assumes control of this line > sometime this spring. I have heard that CSX has already begun work on the > line near Gary. NS currently uses the PRR line between Fort Wayne and the > Hobart (east of Gary) as a passing siding for westbound traffic only. This > helps relieve traffic congestion on NS's principal line, the former NKP > Ft. Wayne line which is single tracked with passing sidings but > experiences up to 35-40 trains a day (Yikes!!) Unless the line's been changed much quite recently, CR would have some difficulty using it as a bypass route, as there had been a complete disconnection in Gary when NS bought and resignalled the line. This was circa 1993-94. I do not know the _current_ status: has the Hobart-Gary segment been put back in place?? I have heard, but not confirmed, that CSX has a contractor working on this segment of the Pennsy right now. I believe that the work is from Hobart (where the NS gets of the PRR and back onto the NKP) to Tolleston which is southeast of Gary and is a junction with the IHB. I don't think that they will use the portion that goes through downtown Gary and connects with the B&OCT at Clark Junction. Of course, CR could have travelled the Lake Shore to the Goshen Secondary, gone south on the Goshen to the Fort Wayne (at Warsaw, if memory serves), then east on the Fort Wayne as far as Crestline. In 1993-4, and possibly now, a CR local used this routing out of Elkhart to serve customers on the Fort Wayne line. The crew had told me then that they were expecting to continue to do so (serve on-line customers) even when the Valparaiso--Fort Wayne section of the line became NS's. Warwaw sure wouldn't make a good connection for mainline freight; I don't know how good the Goshen Secondary's connection with the Lake Shore line is. There are presumably other, foreign-railroad north-south connections that could be used, too. This would certainly have worked for traffic bound via the PRR main. But what about traffic bound via the NYC main. Is there presently a connection in the NW quadrant from the Fort Wayne to the Big Four in Crestline? I believe there is not. The connection at Goshen is a wye in southwest quadrant so eastbound to southbound movements (and vice versa) are easy. The connections at Warsaw, however, are awkward. The wye track is in the southeast quadrant which requires a reverse movement for southbound to eastbound trains (and vice versa). At Crestline, CSX did put in a wye track in the northwest quadrant last year to accommodate westbound traffic on the Big Four to turn west onto the PRR line. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Big CR Multi-train crash.... Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:43:04 -0500 (EST) > In regards to traffic rerouting, is the Michigan Line being exclusively > used or is CR using the former PRR Fort Wayne line for some of the > traffic? Although NS owns it from Crestline, OH to Gary, IN, I think CR > does still have trackage rights over it. The former PRR line currently is > a ghost of itself being single tracked with no passing sidings and no CTC. > That will change, to some extent when CSX assumes control of this line > sometime this spring. I have heard that CSX has already begun work on the > line near Gary. NS currently uses the PRR line between Fort Wayne and the > Hobart (east of Gary) as a passing siding for westbound traffic only. This > helps relieve traffic congestion on NS's principal line, the former NKP > Ft. Wayne line which is single tracked with passing sidings but > experiences up to 35-40 trains a day (Yikes!!) Unless the line's been changed much quite recently, CR would have some difficulty using it as a bypass route, as there had been a complete disconnection in Gary when NS bought and resignalled the line. This was circa 1993-94. I do not know the _current_ status: has the Hobart-Gary segment been put back in place?? Of course, CR could have travelled the Lake Shore to the Goshen Secondary, gone south on the Goshen to the Fort Wayne (at Warsaw, if memory serves), then east on the Fort Wayne as far as Crestline. In 1993-4, and possibly now, a CR local used this routing out of Elkhart to serve customers on the Fort Wayne line. The crew had told me then that they were expecting to continue to do so (serve on-line customers) even when the Valparaiso--Fort Wayne section of the line became NS's. Warwaw sure wouldn't make a good connection for mainline freight; I don't know how good the Goshen Secondary's connection with the Lake Shore line is. There are presumably other, foreign-railroad north-south connections that could be used, too. This would certainly have worked for traffic bound via the PRR main. But what about traffic bound via the NYC main. Is there presently a connection in the NW quadrant from the Fort Wayne to the Big Four in Crestline? I believe there is not. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 16:32:54 -0500 From: "Marvin E. Crim" Subject: [PRR] Enola...? Conway...? You "must" be kidding...here in PRR country, Enola and Conway were folks we said "Howdy" to...but now...Ft. Wayne, Columbus, Cincinnati, Logansport, Indianapolis, Chicago, and St. Louis...places where we could find "The PRR." There was no need to wire these babies up 'round here...steam and a couple ol' diesels did it all. We used wirin' in the house. -- "I live with 'FEAR' every day, but sometimes she lets me watch old PRR tapes." Until Later, Marvin 'n Ellen 'n Misty too mcrim1361@worldnet.att.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:55:02 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] "Triumph" Series > > (Huh? You mean the Pennsy went west of Conway Yard? It didn't just > magically leave Conway and suddenly appear at Englewood Station in Chicago??) > Gee! I was unaware that the Pennsy went west of Enola. When did they string catenary across the Alleghenies? Vagel Keller "tongue-in-cheek-in-Pittsburgh" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:54:50 -0500 From: Elliot Fishbein and/or Eileen Kolbasuk Subject: [PRR] Atlas RS-1 Hi, The Atlas rs-1 in LIRR paint is shown on the atlas web page, http://www.atlasrr.com/highlights/images/8855.gif Elliot ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:33:57 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] B-1 or B-6 Hi you all... I don't know if this will put anymore light on the subject.... But this is from Penn Central time table No.2 of Dec.1srt 1968 Eastern Region Class B-1 speed limit 25 MPH Class DD-1 speed limit 50 MPH (what the heck is it doing out of NY anyway?) I would guess this was at the very,very end of their useful careers. Also it lists a class Bs6 which i take to be a Baldwin 600 HP switcher under track restrictions. Have fun... Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:20:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Big CR Multi-train crash.... ***Hi, Ted- the CR notice just included that sketch....Chic line totally out, so detouring via detroit. Wasn't that a famous Bus Route ??? Deee-troit via Lansing..???..haha, bill** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:11:48 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] final drawings list part one Hi... Ok you all this is what i have been able to come up with...Its rather long and is broken down into sections...Also i'm listing some of the books for folks to find drawings in also. My aim is for this to be as complete a list as possible given the resources i have at hand. As i've said before there were some drawings that did'nt give a class and i will list them at the end of each section they are related to. Some abbreviations are in order for there are many,many books and magazines...some with rather long names. Car Builders Cyclopedia = CBC HO Monthly/HO Model Trains = HO M Keystone = Keys Mainline Modeler = MM Model Railroader = MR Model Railroading = M Ring Model Railroader Cyclopedia Vol 1 or 2 = MR CYC 1 or MR CYC 2 N.C. Chapter PRR T & HS Signal Bridge = NC SIG B NMRA Bulletin = NMRA B 1/48 O Scale News = OSN Prototype Modeler = PM Railroad Modeler = RM Railroad Model Craftsmen = RMC Underground Railway Press = URP The list will work like this....using a class X40 boxcar as an example X40 No(s) 36990(if nos are listed) MR 6/70 At the end of this list i will give a short list of books that you can also find drawings in too and the link for Accurail's list site. This list includes many drawings that are not listed at the Accurail site. Note: Some drawings are in some cases part of modeling articles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Steam Locomotives A3 No(s) ? MR CYC 1 ,MR 12/52 A3a " MR CYC 1 ,MR 12/53 A4 " MR 6/94 A5s " MR 10/73,1/74 B4a " MR 7/68 B5 " MR CYC 1 B6 " MR CYC 1 C1 " MR 1/35 D3 " MR 9/44 D8a " OSN 1/84,OSN 2/84 D10 " MR 3/90, (D10a) OSN 1/83,OSN 2/83 D12 " MR CYC 1 D13c " MR 3/56,MR CYC 1 D16 (and sb) MR 9/40,OSN 1/80,OSN 2/80,OSN 9/80,OSN 10/80,RMC 6/55 E3 " MR 3/41 E6s " MR 3/34,MR 9/62,MR 9/78,MR CYC 1 F3 " MR 11/44,MR CYC 1 G4 " RMC 7/49 ?,RMC 6/59 G5 " MR 6/39,MR 11/52,HO M 12/53,RMC 12/62,MR CYC 1 H1 " MR 2/59,MR 11/86,MR CYC 1 H3 " (as class R) MR 2/44,MR 11/86,(H3b) OSN 1/85,OSN 2/85 H6sb " MR 2/61,MR 1/74 H8&9 " (H9)MR 12/45,(H9s)MR 9/48,(H8,9)MR CYC 1 H10 " MR CYC 1,OSN 7/84,OSN 8/84 I1s " MR 2/53,MR CYC 1 J1 " RMC 5/58,RMC 7/60 K4s " MR 7/36,MR 7/43,HO M 11/50,MR CYC 1 L1s " RMC 7/47,HO M 5/49,MR 6/52,MR CYC 1 M1 " MR 5/35,HO M 1/54,MM 2/87,MR CYC 1 M1a " MR 9/38,HO M 1/54,MR 3/68,MR CYC 1 N1s " RMC 7/59,MR 11/69 S2 6200 MR 3/48 T1 " MR 10/46,RMC 9/49,MM 4/82,MR CYC 1 1891 4-4-0 (D10 ?) MR 4/90 ? USRA 0-6-0 (B28) MR CYC 1 USRA 2-8-2 (L2s) MR 2/53 0-6-0 RMC 2/59 Electric Locomotives DD1 " MR 3/71 E classes 4939-4944 MR 10/68 E44 4400-4465 RMC 12/61 ? GG1 4800-4938 MR 10/35,MR 9/54,RMC 1/76,MR 10/94(part of Broadway article) L5 " RMC 6/53 O1a MR 1/34,MR 5/54 P5 4700 MR 1/34 P5a " MR 5/54,RMC 4/61 Diesel Locomotives SW1 " RM 10/76 NW2 " HO M 12/53 GP30 " RM 5/76 GP35 " M Ring 4/93 SD9 " MM 11/89 SD40 " M Ring 9/93 U25b " MM 5/96 Lima-Hamilton Transfer Units MR 10/56,RMC 5/64 1500 HP Baldwin Sharks MR 10/66 FA2 " MM 8/92 FP7 " RMC 11/78 PA1 " RM 6/72 E7a " PM 11/88,PM 12/88,RMC 1/72 E7b " URP (year ?) E8a " PM 11/88,PM 12/88,URP (year ?) BP60 " RMC 2/67 Note: Some diesels are not listed as they were commonly known produced types or classes. Cabin Cars NA " OSN 7/85,OSN 8/85,(No 201) RMC 10/96 NB " OSN 7/85,OSN 8/85 NC " OSN 7/85,OSN 8/85 ND " MR 7/52 NDA " MR 7/52 NE " OSN 7/85,OSN 8/85 NEa " OSN 7/85,OSN 8/85 N4 " MR 12/95 N5 (both a & b) MR 1/36,RMC 3/57,MR 11/68,CBC N5c " MR 4/82 N6b " MR 12/42,HO M 12/53 N8 " RMC 10/59,MR 10/61,MR 4/82 ? 1872 wood cabin car RMC 3/56 M of W Yb or Y4 ? MR 11/37 GP or GPa RMC 6/56 OG 3507 60' wood paycar of 1914 MR 3/74 XD heater car of 1893 MR 6/84 XL camp car MR 9/66 Gas Electric Tower car (from gas electric) RMC 2/59 34' 2256 wood inspection car of 1870's MR 7/58 tool car (no class given) MR 10/59 Flat Cars FM 947580,473567 MR 1/62,MR 8/63,MR 10/77 F30 " M Ring 3/89 F30a " MM 7/90 F30e " MR 11/86 F33 " RMC 4/55 F39a " MM 7/90 125 ton semi well (F37,FN or FNA ?) RMC 4/55 Gondola Cars GA ? 26' hopper bottom ? No.28502 MR 4/55 GB No.8397 RMC 10/96 GLe Nos.253248-253497 covered hopper? RMC 2/85 GRA ? 38' No. 274836 MR 1/48 GR-GRA " MM 2/90,MM 3/90 GS,GSa,GSc MM 1/91 GSd,GSh MM 12/90 G22b " MR 4/50 G27 " RMC 10/98 G32c " RMC 2/83 G 38,39 and 39a ore cars RMC 12/67 Stock Cars KA No.4733 RMC 10/96 K7a " MM 3/89 open top car ? No.9011 MR 5/73 1909 stock car No.647838 (K7 ?) 36' MR 3/57 Refrigirator Cars R-7 No.5342 MR 4/58 Hopper Cars H2a (N&W class H-10)Nos. 10000-11999 MR 6/65 GLe (See Gondolas) H21 (clam shell doors) Nos. 731001-736000 MR 8/89 H21a " MR 7/78 H24 No.180002 MR 7/78 H25 No.677216 MR 1/65 H30a Nos.255576-255825 covered hopper MR 10/81 H31 MM 7/87 H32 Nos.253500-253799 RMC 2/68 H40 Nos.261370-261419,261420-261470 RMC 7/85 ACF Center Flows (class ?) RMC 7/97 AAR Alternative Standard Hopper (12 panel) RMC 7/86 wood hopper No.10924(H31a ?) MR 4/45 Box Cars XA No.10864 RMC 10/96 XA ? Union Line No.1586 28' wood of 1875 MR 3/46 Class X? 36' wood No.26598 MR 7/47 XD (See M of W) XL Empire Line No.76182 MR 8/57 (Also see XL at M of W) X23 " MR 4/71,MR 1/86 X26c " MM 7/88 X28 " Keys Vol.9 no.4,NC SIG B Vol.17 of 10/97 X29 " Keys Vol.9 no.4,NC SIG B Vol.17 No.3 of 8/97 MR 1/41,MR 1/55,MR 4/63 X29b " MM 12/92 X31 " MM 4/90 X31b " MR 6/66 X32 " MM 4/90,MM 10/90 X33 " MM ? 4/90 X40 No.36990 MR 6/70 X40b No.37007 MR 6/70 X51 " MM 10/97 X58 " RMC 5/80 old box car RMC 1/47 50' steel container car RMC 5/55 Ok guys...being its so late for me and this is a rather long list i'm going to stop for tonight and begin again with the passenger cars tomorrow. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco Products remotor kit for Boswer T-1 Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:11:14 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 17 Jan, Roger Elliott wrote: > Also in n-scale, has anyone seen any Nc-5 cabooses out there? I > understand fine-n-scale is supposed to make one, but I haven't seen it > yet........ There was a brass version years ago. The FNS resin model is said to be imminent. However, Dick is a perfectionist. That's OK, I can wait. Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:30:05 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco Products remotor kit for Boswer T-1 Greetings, Key Imports did a brass N scale N5c about 5 years ago. Chuck Friedlein Dennis Rockwell wrote: > > On 17 Jan, Roger Elliott wrote: > > > Also in n-scale, has anyone seen any Nc-5 cabooses out there? I > > understand fine-n-scale is supposed to make one, but I haven't seen it > > yet........ > > There was a brass version years ago. The FNS resin model is > said to be imminent. However, Dick is a perfectionist. > That's OK, I can wait. > > Dennis > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:14:27 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] "Triumph" Series...not hatred !!!??/ In a message dated 99-01-18 07:42:38 EST, you write: << To those of you (apparently many of you) who hated "Triumph I": >> ***Rich, I feel that you might have misunderstood that discussion.... NO one that I know "hated" the book, as every PRR book has something to offer, even the Morning Sun 'picture books'. Remember, inquiries and questions and corrections to Mr. Roberts in a nice businesslike manner were responded to with ridicule and derision By Him !!! Only after many of us got hit with brickbats did the sentiments go against his attitude, and his claims of "meticulous research" are a bit humorous when he never studied his own diagrams, and the written words contradict his Own Material ??!!! And, how many folks wrote in ( politely ) questioning his use of "zero" for the ought / naught track ( #0 ), and were told, "z-e-r-o is to 0 as f-i-v-e is to 5 ( dummy )". Reread the two reviews in the Keystone...I know you won't find 'hatred' in mine, nor the other one. More of a disappointment.......bill**** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] "Triumph" Series...not hatred !!!??/ Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 06:01:33 -0500 From: Jerry On 1/18/99 11:14 PM, PRRSignals@aol.com (PRRSignals@aol.com) wrote: >Remember, inquiries and questions and corrections to Mr. Roberts in a nice >businesslike manner were responded to with ridicule and derision By Him !!! Or more often ignored. I wrote to him many months ago, politely pointing out that there were inconsistencies and offered to proofread future works free of charge, just to get an extra set of eyes across them. I also mentioned some unique materials that I felt might be useful for future volumes. I received absolutely no acknowledgement. When I placed a phone message to advance reserve a copy of Volume II, I also mentioned that I had this material for future use. They called me back about not understanding my address, but made no mention of the material. Guess they only want my money!!! I brought it up again and they said they would look into it. Finally, they did forward my name to David Messer, one of the editors. He wrote me a nice letter and included his e-mail address. We have conversed several times electronically. He doesn't need my "material". That's fine. At least I made it available for consideration. I brought up banner advertising on "KC", suggesting a three month trade of advertising for a copy of the book (which they give away anyway to anyone who provides material). They turned it down saying "nobody is making any money in this business". Well, though I am glad they are bringing these books out, with an attitude that they have, they shouldn't be in this business!!! > >Reread the two reviews in the Keystone...I know you won't find 'hatred' in >mine, nor the other one. More of a disappointment.......bill**** I also agree with this statement. Many of the photos/diagrams are unique and wonderful and make the book worth owning, even if there is some problem with the text. If someone forwards a list of errata to me, I'll post it on "KC" under the Library section. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 08:06:06 EST From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re[2]: [PRR] Big CR Multi-train crash.... Ahhh... good old US 12. What fond memories..... ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: [PRR] Big CR Multi-train crash.... Author: PRRSignals@aol.com at Internet Date: 1/19/99 12:41 AM ***Hi, Ted- the CR notice just included that sketch....Chic line totally out, so detouring via detroit. Wasn't that a famous Bus Route ??? Deee-troit via Lansing..???..haha, bill** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:51:00 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] "Triumph" Series...just trying to constructively ***wow. Jerry....I could not have had a better "Second", and I definitely could not have written that as well !!! My Recent conversations with Dave Messer indicated that Charles....was offerred our help, and was not "interested".....Okay, Fine. After all, Dave Brubaker is our regular Keystone literary critic..??!!! and I can stick to PRRSignals and Crossword puzzles !!! BTW, You have my complete permission to post my "errata" from my review.... That is exactly what I asked ( in print ) of the Roberts Group = an Errata Sheet correcting the Gross Errors to accompany the Triumph I Volume !!! That would make it darn near great !!! Even little obvious things, like "guessing and speculating" that a CR Tie car train was a "cabooseless hopper train"....ummm, NOT !!!! It would not be so bad, except a decade from now some new fan will look at that as "Factual" and spread the mis-information !!! Geesh !! Like the late great Don Ball, a truly great photographer....Butt..... he Eroneously stated that PRR Engine changes were NOT made at Union Tower / Rahway, NJ !! Recently Several new fans watched Walter Berko's neat GG1 Tape ( SA to NYC on Big Red = 4877) , and Walt stated the History accurately. ( Heck, he should know, as both Walter and I worked PRR Union and worked the levers that Made these engines changes daily !!! ) The new fan wrote in to Walt Chastising him !!!! Telling Walt that "Walt does not know what he is talking about " ..all because of a railfan photographer "guessing" at some data !!!! The power of print...... And Doktor Mark wonders why I get so upset with him "Inventing" ( and never verifying...) information ???!!!! This erroneous garbage gets accepted by the unknowing new folks as "facts" , and it is so much harder to correct later on !! Funny, as my old dictionary defines 'erroneous' as "MARKed by error"...haha. Apparently, the Roberts Group does not wish to have corrections either (?) , so....... And I doubt if Brady, Ben, Rick, ( too many !!) .... and many others I conversed with (including myself) will ever bother writing to CSR again !!!!!!I Thanks, Bill***** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Lines West & Triumph Series From: fredrea@juno.com (Fred G Rea) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:17:24 EST I was an advance purchaser of Triumph I. I got it and have enjoyed it. I have written many large technical report during my career so I will not criticize the effort that has been put into the book. However, I was taken back by much of self grandization and bragging in the promotion of ther book. I am surprised at the rejection of an offer to proofread. I accept that offer on any thing I write. The need for it is probably obvious in just this E-mail message. Also I have been hoping later volumes would cover Lines West. Has anyone ever tried to document with photos and text the extensive network that existed in Ohio, Indiana and Illinois. Most of this is now gone. I would think there is both material and interest waiting for an author and publisher. Fred Rea Columbus Ohio ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:03:07 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] "Triumph" Series" Mr. Roberts claims to be an historian, but falls far short of meeting that standard. Historians cite their sources and ensure each sentence is supported by evidence that they, themselves, have seen and analyzed. CSR is a journalist ... and, as such, he does not reveal his sources. We're supposed to trust him, I suppose. Thus, his books lack any kind of credible verification (ie, footnotes) and will never be of value beyond the category of entertainment. A recent converstation with a respected professional historian who has published several railroad history books and whose main interest railfanning interest has always been the B&O yielded the same reaction to CSR's B&O books that this list has had to "Harrumph I" ... he has reviewed the man's work and has no use for it in his library due to its anecdotal, erroneous information. So, it would seem, that the real value of CSR's "stuff" is as a repository of old photos and rambling, opinionated "holding forth", both of which I find highly entertaining ... and the photo's are valuable iconographic information, if we ignor CSR's captions. But, as an historian ... well, he's not. He's a journalist and therein lies the rub. Of course, many journalists are also respected historians ... CSR would do well to study their work before making his claim in Harrumph Deux. As professional or amateur historians, we owe it to future serious (or current casual) "fans" of the PRR to broadcast the flaws of CSR's work, which, as I read the responses of those more informed than I, are so bad that they misrepresent the very culture of the PRR. And culture, afterall, is what lies at the root of such a passionate bunch such as ourselves. A review in _The Keystone_, while a good start, is decidedly NOT a broadcast. I wonder if the review of CSR's work might not be submitted to _TRAINS_. Also, those of you who have the historical knowledge to locate and point out the more egregious errors in his work and who live in metropolitan areas, should submit critical reviews to the book editor of your regional "big city" newspaper. For myself, lacking the factual basis upon which to critically review his work, I nevertheless do not let pass an opportunity to point out that many knowledgable people have serious criticisms of CSR's seemingly willful lack of concern for historical accuracy, even though his works are generally considered to be valuable sources for their graphic and photographic content, alone. Hope this inspires some folks to make the leap from electronic to print media, Vagel Keller CMU Dept. of History Pittsburgh ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:28:52 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Enola...? Conway...? In a message dated 1/18/99 17:01:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, mcrim1361@worldnet.att.net writes: << You "must" be kidding...here in PRR country, Enola and Conway were folks we said "Howdy" to...but now...Ft. Wayne, Columbus, Cincinnati, Logansport, Indianapolis, Chicago, and St. Louis...places where we could find "The PRR." There was no need to wire these babies up 'round here...steam and a couple ol' diesels did it all. We used wirin' in the house. >> Ummm no wires west of Harrisburg so what is your point? Lines west was just a means of connecting the real PRR to Chicago . Now that I have stoked the fires ... to warm a cold winter day Till next time. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Big CR Multi-train crash.... Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:03:07 -0500 (EST) > ***Hi, Ted- > > the CR notice just included that sketch....Chic line totally out, so detouring > via detroit. Wasn't that a famous Bus Route ??? Deee-troit via > Lansing..???..haha, bill** 'cept that [Chicago to] Detroit via Lansing would not be Conrail, but GTW and (I believe) Pere Marquette. Conrail/Michigan Central was via Niles, Kalamazoo (the "famous" BO tower, still open, reference available upon request :-), Jackson, Ann Arbor, Ypsilanti, Dearborn. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: Re: [PRR] "Triumph" Series" Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:41:58 -0500 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight. Isaiah 5:21 Al <>< ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 16:40:03 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West & Triumph Series In a message dated 1/19/99 10:56:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, fredrea@juno.com writes: > Also I have been hoping later volumes would cover Lines West. Has > anyone ever tried to document with photos and text the extensive network > that existed in Ohio, Indiana and Illinois. Most of this is now gone. I > would think there is both material and interest waiting for an author and > publisher. > One of the reasons there is little published on the Lines West is the lack or at least apparent lack of material on the Lines West. The other being those living in Lines East areas tend to write about that which is/was close at hand. There have been few authors come forth from Lines West territory. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West & Triumph Series Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 18:08:59 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 93fafe8c61c34434792c3b6d2451edc2 -----Original Message----- From: SUVCWORR@aol.com To: fredrea@juno.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; glrea@earthlink.net Date: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 5:19 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West & Triumph Series >In a message dated 1/19/99 10:56:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, fredrea@juno.com >writes: > >One of the reasons there is little published on the Lines West is the lack or >at least apparent lack of material on the Lines West. The other being those >living in Lines East areas tend to write about that which is/was close at >hand. There have been few authors come forth from Lines West territory. Actually there is quite a bit of material out there on Lines West but you must dig. 1. The entire Volume III of "The Pennsylvania Railroad - Corporate, Financial and Construction History of Lines Owned, Operated and Controlled to December 31, 1945" which is dedicated to Lines West. It is 764 pages not including a 19 page index. FYI, Volume I = The PRR Proper (682+ pages), Volume II = Lines East (756+ pages) and Volume IV = Affiliated Lines, Miscellaneous Companies, and General Index (644 pages) prepared by Coverdale & Colpitts - Consulting Engineers. 2. A summary of those four volumes in " Centennial History of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company 1846-1945" by Burgess and Kennedy of Coverdale & Colpitts. 3. The PRR archives at the Hagley Library and Museum in Wilmington has a lot of Lines West "stuff." Including annual reports, betterment and abandonment records, etc. of many of the leased lines 4. Also remember that Lines West (a.k.a. The Pennsylvania Company [P. Co.]) existed only from 1870 - 1920 and was formed to manage the massive amount of rail lines (over 3,000 miles in 1870) being acquired (mostly leased) by the PRR west of Erie and Pittsburgh. It was dissolved after the railroad was returned to PRR management control after USRA (government control) during WW I. Because it just didn't work well. 5. Lines West was really two entities the Northwestern System and the Southwestern System. The Southwestern System was essentially the Pan Handle and really didn't come under the management of Lines West they sort of managed themselves. Therefore the PRR had three separate railroads (if you will) come together at Pittsburgh - Lines East, the Northwestern System (of Lines West) and the Southwestern System (of Line West). I am hoping to break the Lines East trend with the story of the Erie & Pittsburgh Railroad (Branch) that is scheduled as of now for publication in mid 2000. It is planned as a 150+ page book w/ 30% text and 70% pictures and will cover the period 1858-1999. The text is about 50% written, and will be proof read by at least three real railroad people, the pictures are about 25% gathered and the captions will be read by three real railroad people. Even though I worked for the PRR and spent time on the E&P in the 1960s as track supervisor, I realize I don't know everything about it. If you are interested in the draft table of contents contact me on the side I will attach it to a message. A couple of people on this list have offered to contribute pictures for which I am very grateful. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 18:06:23 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West & Triumph Series X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: fdd7fe586a0aec000f71e0ac56dd3c80 Folks, That Triumph book sure has raised some eyebrows, to be sure. Personaly, I'm always trying to figure out whether the Pennsy or the B&O is my first love amoung railroads, so I was familar with some of roberts' work over on the B&O side before he did any Pennsy "coverage".I passed on Triumph because I thought it was overpriced for the content, though if he does a volumn on the Philley terminal I'll have to break down and get it.It seems Roberts lets his affection for the Beans N Oinions sour his veiw of the Pennsy a bit, kinda the old "I love dogs so I hate cats" syndrome. Too bad, because that reflects in his work and diminishs it's value, even as a narrative effort. Lines West? Fat chance 'a that I fear. More's the pity, too, cause a Pennsy mainliner lurking in Chicago Union Station was a wonderful thing, a passport to the home country in Philley, and the flaming mills of Pittsburgh in the wee hours, when the furnaces cast a half light across your coach's interior , and made you glad you stayed awake for this! How many diamonds did your P85 or 10-6 clatter and smash over in getting across Indiana and Ohio? And how many freights growled past your window all night, the best wakeup call you ever got, even if it was fifteen times a night! Too bad all right, when a guy thinks of seeing a pair of Pennsy geeps rolling toward Peoria with a nice cut for the M&Saint L, and who knows who else. Ever been over in western michagan and saw the track that the Northern Arrow somehow averaged about 40 on, getting up to Mackinaw? Yeah, I wouldn't mind a little Lines West myself. See ya's later, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 20:23:17 -0500 From: Charles Ring Subject: [PRR] Dover and Cambridge, Ohio X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 48eb391eb551267f57a1bb0de5662727 RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/19/99 10:56:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, fredrea@juno.com > writes: > > > Also I have been hoping later volumes would cover Lines West. Has > > anyone ever tried to document with photos and text the extensive network > > that existed in Ohio, Indiana and Illinois. Most of this is now gone. I > > would think there is both material and interest waiting for an author and > > publisher. > > > > Fred Rea > > Columbus Ohio > > > C'mon, Fred, we both know a publisher will do a book on PRR Lines West when > the Caribbean freezes over -- and even then, the captions will be wrong . > > Til the next train out, > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) > Operating the Panhandle Route > And Remembering PRR Lines West > This Sunday I will be in Dover, Ohio, one of the places my father had to commute to until he got enough seniority as a yardmaster to stay close to home. I wonder, is there anything left there of PRR installations to see today? Also, I recently came across some photos taken only days before I was born in 1951 in Cambridge, Ohio, showing "the last B&O engines" (steamers) at the PRR facilities there. The names on the pictures are Ross Bricker (whom I remember), Reed Bamfield, and Ross Henderson. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 19:07:55 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West & Triumph Series X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 44b701f40648f83741fb116df52edfef In a message dated 1/19/99 10:56:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, fredrea@juno.com writes: > Also I have been hoping later volumes would cover Lines West. Has > anyone ever tried to document with photos and text the extensive network > that existed in Ohio, Indiana and Illinois. Most of this is now gone. I > would think there is both material and interest waiting for an author and > publisher. > > Fred Rea > Columbus Ohio > C'mon, Fred, we both know a publisher will do a book on PRR Lines West when the Caribbean freezes over -- and even then, the captions will be wrong . Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:17:02 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] final drawings list part two X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: bd89bd150819d75c08dbf6bdfc662d6c Hello again folks.. Here is the rest of the drawings list...I'd like to take this opportunity to thank all of you who helped with references for the list and information i might not have found out about soon otherwise. Passenger Cars -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Express Refrigirator Cars R-50b ? " MR 3/45 notes 50' car Business Cars Z74 100 MR 10/71 64'wood No.7501 MR 12/59 Baggage Cars BC 5403 MR 3/67,MR 3/87 B60 " MR 10/51,OSN 1/86,OSN 2/86 B70 " RMC 7/67 theater baggage,includes names BM70 " MR 10/51 Ea 482 MR 4/69 (baggage car of 1862) 40' wood open plat. of 1870 MR 11/48 Mail Cars M70 " MR 1/78 MPB70 " See Combines BM70 " See Baggage cars 40' No.9 mail car of 1880 MR 7/44 Postal car RMC 5/53 Combines MPB70 " MR 8/63 PB54 " MR 10/69 Also see MU Section Pullman combine "Liberty series" MR 11/89 46' baggage-coach of 1870's MR 11/48 Coaches PF " MR 8/65 P54 " See MU Section P58 " MR 3/77 P70 " MR 8/63 P70k No.s 4244-4309 RMC 10/68 P70r " OSN 3/86,OSN 4/86 P70far " OSN 3/86,OSN 4/86 P85b " MR 10/95 44' radial roof coach RMC 5/53 46' wood coach of the 1860's MR 12/53 53' wood coach of the 1880's MR 1/53 60' wood coach of 1895 No.4639 MR 11/73 Class PG ? 80' coach RMC 7/55 Diners D70 " RMC 1/55 D78 " MR 8/49,MR 11/74 (D78c) 1949 Twin Unit See Broadway article MR 10/94 Parlor,Sleeper and Observation Cars PS18 "City of cars" RMC 8/67 PS106 eagle-rapids cars MM 7/95,MR 7/96 acf lots 3079,3200,3212 PS6L falls cars MM 8/93 pullman plan 4131,lot 6792 POS21 (1949) RMC 8/68 pullman plan 4134 POS21a (1938) RMC 8/67 SL-Parlor-Obs RMC 8/70 Also See.... New Pullmans of 1938 MR 7/38 Broadway Plans NMRA B 12/77 1949 Broadway Lmt. MR 10/94 Heavyweight Pullmans 12-1 " MR 2/66 12-1 plan 2410-1 RMC 12/67 8-1-1 plan 2585d RMC 8/68 8-1-2 plan 3979a RMC 12/67 8-3-1 plan 4090 RMC 8/68 parlor Corageous MR 9/66 MU Cars W.J.& S.No.6723 wood MU URP (year ?) MP54e " MR 1/35 MP54e5 505 MR 10/69 PB54 MR 10/69 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PRR Structures Media station RMC 5/53 Collingswood station RMC 11/60 Strafford station MR 12/77 Edmonson Ave station (Baltimore,Md.) Keys Vol.28 No.2 1995 Penn station Baltimore Keys Vol.28 No.2 1995 Wilmington Del. station MM 1/99 or 2/99 ? Scale and scale track MR 9/66,MR 12/85 Underpass at Creston, Pa. NMRA B 4/75 Franckville, Pa. freight house URP (year ?) 120 ton highlift car dumper ,Sandusky,Oh. URP (year ?) J (Lemo) tower MR 10/95 GK tower RMC 1/77 B & P and Union (Baltimore) twin towers Key Vol.31 No.4 1998 Lewisburg tower MR 2/69 Kearney Jct. tower NMRA B 7/75 Standard single position light signal and mast NC SIG B Vol.16 No.4 10/96 ================================================================================ Here are some books that you can find PRR Equipment and Structure drawings in. Car Builders Cyclopedia Model Railroaders Locomotive Cyclopedia Vol's 1 and 2 57 Plans M of W for the PRR Boynton & Assoc. 1967 ICC /Div. of Valuation/Eastern District PRR Company/ Lines East of Pittsburgh Type Book for Buildings c.1920 C/o Trains Stuff,Ltd.611 Brookwood Rd. Baltimore Md.21229/1995 or to Gary Schlenf (same address) but zip as 21229/1402 PRR Passenger & Freight Car Diagrams by Robert J. Wayner Wayner Publications Box 871 Ansonia station New York,N.Y. 10023 (as of 1981) Some of these are out of print,but can sometimes be found at trains meets and shows and thru bookstores that do searches for books. Here is the address for Accurails reference lists. http://www.accurail.com/tm.exe Have fun everyone Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:48:20 -0500 From: DjM Subject: Re: [PRR] Dover and Cambridge, Ohio X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 55ea6764a129b56805a4fbce10d01746 > > In a message dated 1/19/99 10:56:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, fredrea@juno.com > > writes: > > > > Also I have been hoping later volumes would cover Lines West. Has > > anyone ever tried to document with photos and text the extensive network > > that existed in Ohio, Indiana and Illinois. Most of this is now gone. I > > would think there is both material and interest waiting for an author and > > publisher. I know what you mean. I can't even find a decent photo or a layout of the trackage at Saint Paris, the PRR's interchange with the DT&I. :o) -=D -- David Mikulec President, Ohio Central Lines DT&I / Springfield Southern / IG&E Rwy -- The DT&I Modelers Page http://DTI.Railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Six" Subject: [PRR] color of PRR gons, hoppers and boxcars Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:48:48 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5e39c9829eca6362723ddb136c6bbb29 Y'all, I am sure that this topic has been hashed over and over again on this and other lists, but since I am relatively new to this list, here goes again. I have completed several pre-painted Pennsy freight cars and they are coming out a different shade of "red" when complete and weathered. My Bowser H21a hoppers, Bowser GS gondola, and Bowser F30A flatcar are painted by Bowser in the circle keystone paint scheme and are all of approximately the same shade of PRR freight car red. However, my Red Caboose PR X29 boxcar in this same scheme is much more "orange" in color. Here are my questions. Which is right? Are they all right? Are none right? Studying the many PRR color books it appears that all are right as the color of PRR freight cars in this scheme is not consistent. I realize that color reproduction on photos reprinted in books can have a wide variation and not accurately reflect the "real thing." Complicating matters is that my Dad's old friend that worked in the Holidaysburg car shops told me long ago that boxcars were a darker, more red color while hoppers and gons were more orange. The color photos in the PRR books seem to bear this out. My models are just opposite of this! Hmmm . . . Jim Six :~( ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 00:06:23 EST Subject: [PRR] color of PRR gons, hoppers and boxcars X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 1a9709b3ff726a4ffc9a7b6d0facdd04 In a message dated 1/19/99 10:16:32 PM Central Standard Time, jimsix@ncweb.com writes: << Complicating matters is that my Dad's old friend that worked in the Holidaysburg car shops told me long ago that boxcars were a darker, more red color while hoppers and gons were more orange. The color photos in the PRR books seem to bear this out. My models are just opposite of this! Hmmm >> A lot of it is personal preference (and weathering in the case of the prototype) , but I prefer the Red Caboose red as more accurate. To the extent that I bought my X32 round roof undec and painted it myself rather than accepting Bowser's colors. OTOH, I am not as interested in painting and decorating a string of H21s. However, the Accurail USRA hopper (Pennsy had a few) has a color more like Red Caboose's approach and I have painted one GLCA and will paint four brass H21 or H25s in that shade. Your comment about hopper colors is interesting because one of my videos showing color film of about 60 years ago has a newly painted GLCA in the middle of a train which does have a decidedly more orange cast,but who can tell about the film that old? BTW, the truck frames were painted bright freight car color. What I found about the Red Caboose shade is that I had better luck starting with that lighter more orange shade and weathering with soot, etc, than trying to lighten up (fading?)Bowser H21s. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 23:08:12 EST Subject: [PRR] USRA Roundhouses X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5315822a9c6b7e752f4000c5c267895f On page 50 of the Q2 book Classic Power 5, it's mentioned that Crestline's roundhouse is a "USRA" type. I've heard of USRA engines and cars, but this is my first hint that there were also USRA buildings. I'll admit that it's occurred to me before that the PRR appears to have built a lot of roundhouses or roundhouse additions in the years around W.W.I. But which of these were "USRA" designs? Thinking about brick curtainwall roundhouses, I suppose the suspects could include: - Conway roundhouse - addition to Mingo Junction roundhouse - Fort Wayne house - Crestline - Columbus OH (I'm weak on pics of this one) - Cincinnati? Indy Hawthorne? Rose Lake? Can anyone comment on the family resemblances here? Were any of these really "USRA" designed? Were there other buildings of USRA design? Thanks. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 23:08:11 EST Subject: [PRR] Fort Wayne Yards X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 0af94605f7facb8ef247dca641176755 Gentlemen, I'm sure Classic Power 5, the Custom NJ book on the PRR Q2 class duplex, has been discussed on PRR-Talk before, but I recently got to read it. Have a question... E.T. Harley's text starts out with a description of a Q2-powered train "getting out of town" from Fort Wayne, headed for Chicago. He mentions this westbound departing "Junction Yard" and heading west past the passenger station. This puzzles me, as I know Junction Tower was on the west side of town. IIRC from living there in the early 80's, the PRR would read east to west as follows: - approach from Van Wert Ohio via Monroeville - ADAMS Tower (line from Richmond IN comes north from Decatur IN and joins the main westbound) - Fort Wayne Yard (or whatever the name). International Truck Plant here somewhere - another small yard - PRR roundhouse, Wabash main on northern boundary - MIKE Tower, double track Wabash crosses double track PRR main - site of Fort Wayne Shops along north side - Wabash main paralleling on south side, with site of Wabash station - Fort Wayne passenger station on north side (interior features PL heralds for Pennsylvania Lines) - General Electric Fort Wayne Works (Electric Motor Business) on north side - Junction Tower. Crossing of an NYC line? Also, departure point of Grand Rapids & Indiana line heading north to Grand Rapids and ultimately Mackinaw City. - Double track PRR raceway headed west to Columbia City, Warsaw In, Plymouth IN, and ultimately Chicago. Assuming this is about right, what name did the railroad call its yard in Ft. Wayne? I never heard it referred to as anything but "Fort Wayne." BTW, Fort Wayne was the home of FW-30, the speediest local turn in captivity. These guys worked east from FW, working whatever industries across northern Ohio survived, and some days might go as far east as Crestline before they turned around. I learned from bitter experience that this was one local you couldn't pace -- once they turned westbound, their pace was passenger-train- like, to get home. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 01:02:48 -0500 From: John W Rosenbauer Subject: Re: [PRR] color of PRR gons, hoppers and boxcars X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5bbbd7a4d3db6b69b2f9d5af7c0ba24b Jim, I suggest you go to the news group: alt.binaries.pictures.rail There is a gentleman posting absolutely gorgeous color PRR pics from the 50's. One pic today, 20-Jan-99, is of an M-1 on the curve. The first two cars are hoppers, the second two are boxes and the color difference is amazing. Have fun, J.W.Rosenbauer Jim Six wrote: > > Y'all, > > I am sure that this topic has been hashed over and over again on this and > other lists, but since I am relatively new to this list, here goes again. > > I have completed several pre-painted Pennsy freight cars and they are coming > out a different shade of "red" when complete and weathered. My Bowser H21a > hoppers, Bowser GS gondola, and Bowser F30A flatcar are painted by Bowser in > the circle keystone paint scheme and are all of approximately the same shade > of PRR freight car red. However, my Red Caboose PR X29 boxcar in this same > scheme is much more "orange" in color. > > Here are my questions. Which is right? Are they all right? Are none > right? > > Studying the many PRR color books it appears that all are right as the color > of PRR freight cars in this scheme is not consistent. I realize that color > reproduction on photos reprinted in books can have a wide variation and not > accurately reflect the "real thing." > > Complicating matters is that my Dad's old friend that worked in the > Holidaysburg car shops told me long ago that boxcars were a darker, more red > color while hoppers and gons were more orange. The color photos in the PRR > books seem to bear this out. My models are just opposite of this! Hmmm . . > . > > Jim Six :~( > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 03:04:35 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Big CR Multi-train crash.... X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 3382f29abdfac4b8531c4021fc7eaa07 In a message dated 99-01-19 13:03:18 EST, you write: << Wasn't that a famous Bus Route ??? Deee-troit via > Lansing..???..haha, bill** >> ***ummm, the operative word here was " BUS ", which Ted understood, and Correctly listed the route ( highway ...) as Rte # 12. As far as I remember, the last experiment with a GM bus equipped with rr wheels was on the Jersey Central ( not pere marquette...) near Newark Airport, 1970's.... bill**** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 02:13:17 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] color of PRR gons, hoppers and boxcars X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 03fe1c2d3c36e1f5ae521e7d35f7f625 Jim, I think the general feel from us is that you should use what makes you happy as I don't think you can be too far off as long as you stick to a RED/ORANGE IRON OXIDE color for equipment painted up through say the later part of the 50's. After that the color became much browner. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 06:01:07 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: [PRR] Color of PRR gons, hoppers and box cars X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 32812ae8a41780628091dc43399e704f Greetings, I've been following this thread regarding color for a little while and figured it might be time to put my 2 cents' worth in. When I was looking for color information for Merchandise Service cars I got the following as a general consensus, because there aparently isn't any hard-and fast proof otherwise--and it seems the most logical, too. Up until around 1952, the standard color specified by the PRR was "iron sesquioxide" (I think I spelled that right), which is a natural pigmentation. Since it is natural, it varies in shade depending upon where it is obtained. In the earlier days of smaller manufacturers dotted around the Pennsy system area and it's shops, the shop folks ordered it locally. Therefore, even though there was a standard mix formula (don't have info. on the formula), it would turn out a little different each time and in each different area of manufacture. It was decidedly a lot more orange in hue than the post 1952 era, with it's synthesized pigments in the later formula that pretty much came out the same shade, no matter who made it or where it was made. The Red Caboose HO and N scale X29 cars are dead on one of the earlier shades on the iron sesquioxide paint era, as I'm told by a PRRT&HS member who's done a reasonable amount of color research. So-o-o-o, I'd say look to that color as a starting point and, if mixing your own paints, add a very lttle brown in varying amounts for darker shades, and when decalling the car use the same shop code for each shade; conversely, use a different shop code for each different shade you mix up. That way you separate the paint color by different geographical locations. As to which shade would be correct for what geographical area??? -- I don't have any information on that, and would hazard a guess that nobody else does, either. However, if someone does have something to add, please let's all hear about it so we can learn. Chuck Friedlein ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] New Bachman K-4 From: Fred G Rea Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:08:28 EST X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: e324c9c94f94aa69f079d7a91b3d8de4 Well I got my new Bachman K-4 and it is great. I have a question or two for you guys. 1. Is the justification for the red roof and tan tender top for the Panhandle in 1948? I know I want to subdue the fire box and smoke box. I don't recall red on the tops but as 10 year old I probably never looked down on one. 2. Any problems with the tender? Mine derails on #6 turnouts. Suspect I need to re position the multi-conductor cables and/or add weight to the tender. Any comments? Looks too good but runs great. Won't pull like a Bowser but runs like my Life Like Proto 2000 Pa+PB. Fred ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:08:13 EST Subject: [PRR] The Logic of Model Railroad Marketing X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 435cce4c514868f90d90fe06886c4d27 In a message dated 1/20/99 12:16:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, hendricr@SONOMA.EDU writes: > One problem is > that some railroads which you might think would have a strong following on > the basis of their physical size and importance in the overall scheme of > things in fact attract very few modelers (e.g., the L&N) while much > smaller and less geographically diverse lines have a host of loyal fans > (e.g., WM). As sales reps for several kit manufacturers have said to me > (in exasperation, and more than once), "go figure." > > Richard Hendrickson. > Obviously, what sells is a complex question. We can always assume modeling the "home place" road is a strong draw, and places of large population will make their home roads popular. However, over the years I've also seen a very strong tendency to model the railroads in one's vacation area. At least this explains the very strong draw of Western Maryland (vacationing up the Potomac if you live in the Baltimore/Washington area), and the tendency of PRR modelers to fixate on the Middle Division. In Dayton Ohio, there were once a large handful of layouts dedicated to western Appalachia, especially the Clinchfield and C&O. Allen McClelland's beautiful Virginian & Ohio is a surviving example of these. Lots of Ohioans tend to drive southeast for weekends... I find that Louisvillians' idea of vacation is to go to the Gulf shore (by August, it isn't any hotter than humid sticky Looavull). On the way, they have their choice of L&N, L&N, or L&N to watch. And of course shorter trips to eastern Kentucky yield more L&N... A mark of the rebellious mind in Louisville is to model Southern, the "other" hometown road. Of course, Louisville is a small metro area compared to the eastern giants, so you can't even see either of these blips in a national market. True, the above is not a marketing plan (far from it). But there IS a tendency to model something in one's vacation area. The experiences are pleasant, and the modeling helps reprise the feeling of "getting away." Certainly that could help explain why so many of us (but especially the Texans) have a latent itch to build Colorado narrow gauge models. As every model railroad marketeer understands, the huge concentrations of modelers in the Northeast corridor and in California are the 800 pound gorillas in the business. This is still where America's population is really concentrated. That's why (at least until recently) so many models appeared in PRR, Santa Fe, and Union Pacific livery, whether appropriate or not. These road names were (and are) as close to a mass market as model railroading will ever see. Rick Tipton Louisville KY where the Ohio River is high and muddy this week, and people still await a PS-3 3-bay hopper car in L&N livery . ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] New Bachman K-4 Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 11:25:38 -0500 From: Jerry X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 9c26b11ebc20da7f05fc3a4d004f812c On 1/20/99 11:08 AM, Fred G Rea (fredrea@juno.com) wrote: >Well I got my new Bachman K-4 and it is great. I have a question or two >for you guys. > >1. Is the justification for the red roof and tan tender top for the >Panhandle in 1948? I know I want to subdue the fire box and smoke box. >I don't recall red on the tops but as 10 year old I probably never looked >down on one. Seem to recall (from distant PRR-Talk posts) that Lines West always favored the red roofs...with Lines East doing it "sometimes". Interestingly, most, if not all, of the locos preserved at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania were done with red roofs and tender decks. > >2. Any problems with the tender? Mine derails on #6 turnouts. Suspect I >need to re position the multi-conductor cables and/or add weight to the >tender. Any comments? Yes, reposition the cables. They tend to stay in place once positioned. Weight in the tender wouldn't hurt either, and there is plenty of room. Of course, isn't that where you want to place your decoder and sound system? 8-) > >Looks too good but runs great. Won't pull like a Bowser but runs like my >Life Like Proto 2000 Pa+PB. Yes, the new sprung trailing truck really helps. Won't wimp out on three cars like the previous K4. BTW: I have an "official" request -- via "Merchandise Service" -- to purchase a lot of the K4 tenders. I know they have declined in the past, but I am seeking them 1) as a lot; 2) without the DCC-Ready circuitry; and 3) without custom packaging. We'll have to wait and see what they say. I know many Penn Line/Bowser owners on this list would love to get their hands on the Bachmann K4 tender should it be sold separately. 8-) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:45:01 +0000 From: tqpj6@pty.com Subject: [PRR] (no subject) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 91b8e11c2409f27ac1ddd6e2b642c162 Modeling the Erie Philidelphaia main line from Erie to Kane. Looking for photos/information of the coaling facilities at Warren PA. I believe the coal tower was actual located at Starbrick PA. Also, any one know if their are consists listed for the freights that ran along the Erie/Philedelphia. W2,W5 or other trains that ran along this seemingly forgotten main. I'm pretty sure their were some unit trains of coal in H-21's leaving the Erie docks headed to Philly. Im told some were pulled by double headed I1's. Thanks mac ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:36:23 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Fort Wayne Yards X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 8d065651e2ef412a7082f36031c8f39b Since I am at work I cannot cite the issue but as I recall there was an article on the Fort Wayne Division published in the Keystone a number of years ago. This may answer your questions. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] New Bachman K-4 From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 12:29:07 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 98026748f214418b39528ed65778de79 Jerry Britton said (in part): BTW: I have an "official" request -- via "Merchandise Service" -- to purchase a lot of the K4 tenders. I know they have declined in the past, but I am seeking them 1) as a lot; 2) without the DCC-Ready circuitry; and 3) without custom packaging. We'll have to wait and see what they say. I know many Penn Line/Bowser owners on this list would love to get their hands on the Bachmann K4 tender should it be sold separately. 8-) - ------------- Jerry, The latest reincarnation of the Bowser K4 has a new casting of a correct 130-P?? tender. This is the same as the Bachmann. They finally replaced the old L1 tender that they had been providing on K4s forever. The irony is that the replacement occurred when Bowser wore out the dies for the L1 tender. Now the new L1 kits come with a K4 tender!! BTW since I upgraded my Bowser K4s with 130-P?? tenders kitbashed from I1 tenders (210-F??) years ago, I have a few of the old L1 tenders left over if any new L1 buyers want to swap for something. regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] New Bachman K-4 Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 12:50:41 -0500 From: Jerry X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 55032c87168927eb23d51116e3d714f8 On 1/20/99 12:29 PM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mail11.mitre.org) wrote: >BTW since I upgraded my Bowser K4s with 130-P?? tenders kitbashed from I1 >tenders (210-F??) years ago, I have a few of the old L1 tenders left over if >any new L1 buyers want to swap for something. So leave the ass-ends of these tenders sticking out of your roundhouse so it looks like you have more locos than you do! 8-) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] PRR Rubber Tired Switchers... Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:24:09 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 1c3aa1d78483d3d3c9b79a490499b966 Hi all, Does anyone have the 12/56 issue of Rail Model Craftsman? According to the magazine index I have there's some info on the switchers on page 32... I'd like to know if whatever's there is useful before trying to acquire a copy... Thanks! Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:25:11 -0500 From: Frank Brua Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Rubber Tired Switchers... X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 2d3272869a85897d924225ceb98f9d88 Took a minute to look thru the 12/56 issue of RMC and can find nothing on rubber tired switchers. Page 32 actually starts an article on making loads for flat cars. As additional information, I have seen a PR video from Clear Block Productions which contains some color footage of the animals working around the Baltimore docks I believe. Robert Schoenberg wrote: > Hi all, > > Does anyone have the 12/56 issue of Rail Model Craftsman? According to the > magazine index I have there's some info on the switchers on page 32... I'd > like to know if whatever's there is useful before trying to acquire a > copy... > > Thanks! > > Rob > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:10:44 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] New Bachman K-4 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 9fd9010aa6587969af5805ccc5805605 Jerry, >BTW: I have an "official" request -- via "Merchandise Service" -- to >purchase a lot of the K4 tenders. I know they have declined in the past, >but I am seeking them 1) as a lot; 2) without the DCC-Ready circuitry; >and 3) without custom packaging. We'll have to wait and see what they >say. I know many Penn Line/Bowser owners on this list would love to get >their hands on the Bachmann K4 tender should it be sold separately. 8-) Someone else brought up the fact that the Botch-man heavyweight cars are sold with correct PRR trucks when painted PRR, but that these trucks are not available seperately. Mind adding that to your enquiry? How about availablity as replacement parts? "Hello Bachman? Yes, I somehow broke the trucks on 20 PRR passenger cars, and 20 K4 tenders fell on the floor and shattered...no the locos are OK...I need to order replacements for all of them..." Sounds like a perfect call to make on 4/1/99! I also just sent Botch-man an email (bach-man@bachmanntrains.com ) enquiry on the same subject. Perhaps if PRR-talk flooded them with the same questions... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] New Bachman K-4 Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 12:55:49 -0500 From: Jerry X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: d2d75631974f4e709bb9a9bcc1d42d35 On 1/20/99 12:29 PM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mail11.mitre.org) wrote: >The latest reincarnation of the Bowser K4 has a new casting of a correct >130-P?? tender. This is the same as the Bachmann. Andy, yes, you are correct. It is available. Bowser part #150635 "PRR 13,000 Gallon Tender Kit" $24.95. In fact, I have these units in stock (http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com). The attraction of the Bachmann tender would be that it is ready-to-run and has the added detail of the water scoop which the Bowser lacks. Sure, the Bowser tender is very (extremely) easy to assemble, but you do have to clean the castings prior to assembly, paint, and decal the unit. That leaves room for the Bachmann unit at a $20-25 price point. IMHO. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West & Triumph Series Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:51:21 -0500 (EST) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: ca7904e3c2fc1d690fe51d241a9d1754 SUVCWORR@aol.com scrivit: > One of the reasons there is little published on the Lines West is the lack or > at least apparent lack of material on the Lines West. The other being those > living in Lines East areas tend to write about that which is/was close at > hand. There have been few authors come forth from Lines West territory. > Rich Orr Rich, I think there is a third problem, basically one of "concentration". There is more "critical mass", if you will, in the Philadelphia area, both in terms of archives and in terms of people. West of Pittsburgh, everything is much more spread out. Where did Lines West documents go? Did they end up in Hagley? Or elsewhere? -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:45:17 +0000 From: tqpj6@pty.com Subject: [PRR] Philly/Erie main line X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 6303dfa40e4c3212df6c1b2913cf9571 Modeling the Erie Philidelphaia main line from Erie to Kane. Looking for photos/information of the coaling facilities at Warren PA. I believe the coal tower was actual located at Starbrick PA. Also, any one know if their are consists listed for the freights that ran along the Erie/Philedelphia. W2,W5 or other trains that ran along this seemingly forgotten main. I'm pretty sure their were some unit trains of coal in H-21's leaving the Erie docks headed to Philly. Im told some were pulled by double headed I1's. Thanks mac ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Logic of Model Railroad Marketing: Much the same holds Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 14:40:50 -0500 From: Jerry X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: ddfa53901a36c0bad01bba6c1d47ebc7 On 1/20/99 2:22 PM, Dan Cupper (dan@cwix.com) wrote: >What I still find weird -- and unchanging -- is that while in the >post-CR age we're still seeing intense interest in the PRR, its faithful >opposition, the New York Central, has not fared nearly so well. This And what of Penn Central? That seems to be 8 years that everyone wants to forget! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser 130p tender was New Bachman K-4 Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 15:34:56 -0500 From: Jerry X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 339098c4f1ccffbb69f63ac16f873500 On 1/20/99 2:12 PM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >As we discussed when it was announced, the Bowser 13,000 gallon tender >supposedly represents a PRR 130P75, however on the model pictured on their >web site, the rivet lines and coal bunker are not correctly placed (I refer >you to my messages of August 11&12, 1998, PRR-Talk archives for details). >Some have argued that this tender represents one of the two seen behind K5 >locos, but after extensive review of photographs, I still think that the >Bowser tender is not a model of any PRR prototype (it is , however, WORLDS >better than their "high side" 110P75 tender where the rivets are the size >of prototype Big Macs!) I am awaiting a Botch-man K4 from Jerry (its in the >mail, right Jerry?), and I will be sure to comment on the accuracy of that >tender when I see it ! The Bachmann tender is high on details and much more refined, although much lighter as well. I'm not sure how my flatbed scanner will handle 3D objects, but I'll get the new Bowser tender out and scan it alongside the Bachmann unit. If I can get a decent scan, I'll post to the list and you'll be able to view via my web server. Of course, the Bowser would be bare metal, but at least you'll shape and perhaps rivet lines. Okay, Bruce, so the new Bowser is 130P75? And the former K4 tender was 110P75? I've never been offered these class identifications before and it was something I wanted to know. (BTW: Your order is en route, Priority Mail. Thanks!) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West & Triumph Series Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:25:00 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 8f9b82931ee2f43e76d43ed09059e662 -----Original Message----- From: Mark Bej To: SUVCWORR@aol.com Cc: fredrea@juno.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; glrea@earthlink.net Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 1:08 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West & Triumph Series > >Where did Lines West documents go? Did they end up in Hagley? Or elsewhere? As I stated in my earlier message, Yes a lot are at the Hagley. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:22:17 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Logic of Model Railroad Marketing: Much the same holds true X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 4b56493de15e6a163ed84946623b0809 RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > >>> Obviously, what sells is a complex question. We can always assume modeling the "home place" road is a strong draw, and places of large population will make their home roads popular. >>> As every model railroad marketeer understands, the huge concentrations of modelers in the Northeast corridor and in California are the 800 pound gorillas in the business. This is still where America's population is really concentrated. That's why (at least until recently) so many models appeared in PRR, Santa Fe, and Union Pacific livery, whether appropriate or not. These road names were (and are) as close to a mass market as model railroading will ever see. Greetings to Rick and the list! Much the same holds true for railroad books, which at least in part explains why so few of them have been written on PRR Lines West components. If you look at the population concentration in PRR-land west of Pittsburgh, it's pretty scattered and where you do find large cities (Chicago, St. Louis), PRR is just one of dozens of railroads. By contrast, NY, Newark, Trenton, Phila., Wilmington, Baltimore, Washington, and Harrisburg all fall within a relatively small circle and in each place, PRR was either alone, or (usually) dominant among a very small number of carriers. What you've said holds true for books, and even magazines: it's hard to go wrong with the big three you mentioned: PRR, ATSF, UP. When TRAINS puts a Santa Fe warbonnet on the cover, sales go up. What I still find weird -- and unchanging -- is that while in the post-CR age we're still seeing intense interest in the PRR, its faithful opposition, the New York Central, has not fared nearly so well. This seems to hold true even in general society -- yesterday, Pennsylvania Governor Tom Ridge was inaugurated for a second term; inaugural balls were held last night in three locations, and one of them was decorated in a PRR theme, with high-school kids dressed in PRR conductor's uniforms as hosts/guides. During the heyday of both railroads, NYC's 20th Century enjoyed a greater renown for its clientele of stars and politicians, far more so than PRR's Broadway. Yet today, the culture, the icons, the preserved stations and rolling stock, and the recorded history of NYC seem to have shriveled to less than those of similarly-departed but much-smaller regional roads that attract great loyalty, such as Western Maryland and Western Pacific. With the singular exception of Grand Central Terminal's survival and restoration, as compared to the annihiliation of PRR's Pennsylvania Station, the NYC seems to have quietly slipped out the stage door of history. Getting back to the point, population is a strong determinant, but there are aberrations such as the NYC. Nobody is writing new NYC history, and we are the poorer without it. Dan Cupper dan@cwix.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:12:44 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Bowser 130p tender was New Bachman K-4 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 83b620451fb3b0c3b94572f08fdaed2f >On 1/20/99 12:29 PM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mail11.mitre.org) wrote: > >>The latest reincarnation of the Bowser K4 has a new casting of a correct >>130-P?? tender. This is the same as the Bachmann. > >Andy, yes, you are correct. It is available. Bowser part #150635 "PRR >13,000 Gallon Tender Kit" $24.95. In fact, I have these units in stock >(http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com). > >The attraction of the Bachmann tender would be that it is ready-to-run >and has the added detail of the water scoop which the Bowser lacks. > >Sure, the Bowser tender is very (extremely) easy to assemble, but you do >have to clean the castings prior to assembly, paint, and decal the unit. >That leaves room for the Bachmann unit at a $20-25 price point. IMHO. As we discussed when it was announced, the Bowser 13,000 gallon tender supposedly represents a PRR 130P75, however on the model pictured on their web site, the rivet lines and coal bunker are not correctly placed (I refer you to my messages of August 11&12, 1998, PRR-Talk archives for details). Some have argued that this tender represents one of the two seen behind K5 locos, but after extensive review of photographs, I still think that the Bowser tender is not a model of any PRR prototype (it is , however, WORLDS better than their "high side" 110P75 tender where the rivets are the size of prototype Big Macs!) I am awaiting a Botch-man K4 from Jerry (its in the mail, right Jerry?), and I will be sure to comment on the accuracy of that tender when I see it ! A riveting tale, no? Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:43:36 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West & Triumph Series X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: b892f1c9073bdbe4a0cca39870da40c9 In a message dated 1/20/99 12:51:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: << Where did Lines West documents go? Did they end up in Hagley? Or elsewhere? >> Mark: This is an excellent question. Some Lines West material which was at Philly went to Hagley. Some PRR corporate records are in the PA state archives. There are some photos in the Carneigie Library, Pittsburgh of the Lines West in the Pittsburgh area. Probably a survey of the libraries, historical societies and state archives in West Virginia, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois. Michigan and Missouri is warranted. Rich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:41:08 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] New Bachman K-4 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: bf8f484c61e6567fd64478900a6b5dc1 Under the heading of "where the heck have I been for the past month", may I ask what type of pilot do these new engines have? Thanks, Vagel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser 130p tender was New Bachman K-4 Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:23:48 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 701f2e085022776d7390bb26ba8834a9 On 20 Jan, Jerry wrote: > I'm not sure how my flatbed scanner will handle 3D objects, but I'll get > the new Bowser tender out and scan it alongside the Bachmann unit. For an interesting sample of such, take a peek at Jim Six's work at http://semra.railfan.net/SEMRA/Model/J6/J6.html and look at any of the shots with a neutral background; these are scanned models... Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:47:56 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] (no subject) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 3e63d899f9baaa699d12a32ffc8591b6 There were unit trains of iron ore from the great lakes to Bethlehem/Allentown steel mills and other eastern PA mills. Don't have the train numbers handy. Also remember the iron ore was moved in H21's and is much heavier than coal. So 1/3 load to 1/2 load is actually a full load of iron ore. The weight of these trains would require double and triple I1s locos on the Phila-Erie main. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: Re: [PRR] (no subject) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:22:40 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: edb7041b581fd4ff419655674ac205d1 -----Original Message----- From: tqpj6@pty.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 1:09 PM Subject: [PRR] (no subject) >Modeling the Erie Philidelphaia main line from Erie to Kane. Looking >for photos/information of the coaling facilities at Warren PA. I >believe the coal tower was actual located at Starbrick PA. Also, any >one know if their are consists listed for the freights that ran along >the Erie/Philedelphia. W2,W5 or other trains that ran along this >seemingly forgotten main. I'm pretty sure their were some unit trains >of coal in H-21's leaving the Erie docks headed to Philly. Im told >some were pulled by double headed I1's. Mac, This was mainly the Erie & Philadelphia RR which PRR leased for 999 years. Yes there were "unit trains" (not actually called that at the time) but they were iron ore not coal for Beth Steel via the Shamokin Branch for interchange to the LV. See Penn Valley Pictures video series especially Vol 1 the "Ore Train" , Vol 2 "The S&L Story" and Vol 5 " The Susquehanna Division." Coal moved in the other direction from eastern and central PA to Erie for loading on the lake boats. Ore off/coal on was a typical Great Lakes operation in many places including Erie. The P&E coal dock originally handled mostly anthracite from the coal fields of NE PA until it started to peter out, then they handled a lot of western PA coal that arrived via the Erie & Pittsburgh RR, also leased by the PRR for 999 years, when the E&P consolidated their ore and coal docks with the P&E.. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser 130p tender was New Bachman K-4 From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 17:02:24 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 75c0146d8624b229f8aa199cd49bfda3 Jerry said Okay, Bruce, so the new Bowser is 130P75? And the former K4 tender was 110P75? I've never been offered these class identifications before and it was something I wanted to know. (BTW: Your order is en route, Priority Mail. Thanks!) The old Bowser "high side" tender was not a 110-P75. It was a freight tender with the doghouse removed! I don't recall the class but it was a common tender for the L1. The 110-P-75 and the 130-P-75 were very similar except for the length. The older tender had deep, visible, side sills, which the P75s lacked. BTW I am taking Bruce's word that the deck height was 75". You may recall in my previous post on the subject I had referred to the tender as a 130-P??. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:42:30 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Rubber Tired Switchers... X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 669c7eb42e2c0e8025592843cd5f2c6f There are some excellent photos of the old rubber tired switchers working in Baltimore in the book TRACKSIDE MARYLAND. There are even shots showing the huge ship-type steering wheels. Roger ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:57:08 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser 130p tender was New Bachman K-4 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: b4dee22c847b6a2cb785a625ff358533 Howdy: I have not been able to double check this entire Classification, and steam isn't one of my strong points - However the Classification and Description of Locomotives and Tenders June 2, 1952 lists 3 class K4s and 1 class K4sa ( the major difference being the Heating Surface of the Firebox in sq. ft 305 vs 347 ) as using the 110P75a tender. I don't think that it is meant as a rule, just a standard for the vast majority of the class. The two K5 (s) had 130P75 tenders. cos wsbcos.com > Jerry said > > Okay, Bruce, so the new Bowser is 130P75? And the former K4 tender was > 110P75? I've never been offered these class identifications before and it > was something I wanted to know. (BTW: Your order is en route, Priority > Mail. Thanks!) > > The old Bowser "high side" tender was not a 110-P75. It was a freight tender > with the doghouse removed! I don't recall the class but it was a common tender > for the L1. > > The 110-P-75 and the 130-P-75 were very similar except for the length. The > older tender had deep, visible, side sills, which the P75s lacked. > > BTW I am taking Bruce's word that the deck height was 75". You may recall in > my previous post on the subject I had referred to the tender as a 130-P??. > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:29:48 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West & Triumph Series X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: a3e311d86e296c79d3d4886abca61dd4 On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Mark Bej wrote: > This being the case, how indeed would one expect a PRR historian from > Peoria or Bloomington or Lansing or Evansville to be able to write a > book with any ease. The "stuff" is sitting in a place far away from > the people most interested in it. Forget the quick evening jaunt > down to Wilmington for 3-4 hours with reference material -- you have > to take a week's vacation, 2 days of which for travel alone. Indeed even finding the time to get down there from Pgh has been elusive thus far; A shame, as I would love to just periodically stop in and read, I'm sure there's a wealth of interesting material, even if you're not looking for something specific. If anyone decides to go and is coming through Pittsburgh, give me a holler, maybe I can weasel my way out of work and classes for a bit... (having only Tuesday/Thursday classes this semester is nice, but it'll be nicer come spring, when I'm finally done, only 4 years late:-) -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West & Triumph Series Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 17:56:35 -0500 (EST) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 79b2eccf8f634e6341d58602bdb5ab41 Alan Buchan scrivit: > >Where did Lines West documents go? Did they end up in Hagley? Or > elsewhere? > > As I stated in my earlier message, Yes a lot are at the Hagley. > Al Yes, our emails crossed in the aether. :-) This being the case, how indeed would one expect a PRR historian from Peoria or Bloomington or Lansing or Evansville to be able to write a book with any ease. The "stuff" is sitting in a place far away from the people most interested in it. Forget the quick evening jaunt down to Wilmington for 3-4 hours with reference material -- you have to take a week's vacation, 2 days of which for travel alone. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Attention K4 Tender Shoppers! Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 20:08:23 -0500 From: Jerry X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 614a551bc53d777f99f4d9ca53320e6e Gee, bet you thought I was going to announce that you could buy a Bachmann K4 tender by itself, huh? Sorry! What I did do was scan in the Bowser 13,000 gallon tender, the new Bachmann K4 tender, and a PRR builder's photo of a 110-P-75 tender. You can view them all side by side. I also took some measurements, made comparisons to the PRR Form 109-K, and made some observations of the models vs. prototype. Take a look at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/k4_tenders.html Summary: The Bowser appears to be a 130-P-75 with poor detailing and perhaps too short a coal bin. The Bachmann appears to be a 110-P-75 with too short a coal bin but excellent details. Both classes are appropriate for the K4 following 1930, according to Staufer's "Pennsy Power". ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 08:42:36 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] P&E Traffic... X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: a51df8b97b097b1938d13523e83b993d In a message dated 99-01-20 15:04:27 EST, you write: << uch heavier than coal. So 1/3 load to 1/2 load is actually a full load of iron ore. The weight of these trains would require double and triple I1s locos on the Phila-Erie main. >> **before I dig too much thru my stuff, a year / decade / period would be really helpful, mac...!!! The ore traffic Rich describes dried up severely in the 1960's....bill*** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West & Triumph Series Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 08:36:25 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 4ef447dcb4ace4a37d0b9f00244546e5 Mark Bej wrote: >This being the case, how indeed would one expect a PRR historian from >Peoria or Bloomington or Lansing or Evansville to be able to write a >book with any ease. The "stuff" is sitting in a place far away from >the people most interested in it. Forget the quick evening jaunt >down to Wilmington for 3-4 hours with reference material -- you have >to take a week's vacation, 2 days of which for travel alone. I know exactly what you mean. While neither time nor distance has ever deterred _serious_ Pennsy historians, I'm sure many have sighed in relief that _really_ valuable archives didn't get buried in Purdue or Case Western. I suppose, however, that proximity to the _heart_ of the Pennsylvania Railroad (with no offense to those living west of the Maginot Line at Pittsburgh), had a lot to do with donations to a museum in the First State. But I am sure there are those that appreciate the fact that it's a puddle jump from small town Wilmington to other corridor resources. But if you live in Topeka, go write about _Chiefs_ not _Arrows_, he grin-ned. Dick Makse ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 00:54:14 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] New Bachman K-4 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: b45c242c1643a96ed41a3b136e2652cb In a message dated 1/20/99 12:17:16 PM Central Standard Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << So leave the ass-ends of these tenders sticking out of your roundhouse so it looks like you have more locos than you do! 8-) >> Good idea. I'm also using appropriate extra tenders for my wreck cranes. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 07:56:04 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser 130p tender was New Bachman K-4 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 94c4086fa16036bc48b23791f1bdab43 >The old Bowser "high side" tender was not a 110-P75. It was a freight tender >with the doghouse removed! I don't recall the class but it was a common >tender >for the L1. Your right! The "high side" Bowser looks to be some version of a 110F82. It is not a Kiesel (sometimes called Baldwin) tender. It was labeled in a 1989 Bowser catalog as 110P75, hence my classification as such. I should know better than to believe Bowser by now! >BTW I am taking Bruce's word that the deck height was 75". You may recall in >my previous post on the subject I had referred to the tender as a 130-P??. Yikes, that is a big assumption I made, not having measured the tender...Jerry, can you check the Bowser 13,000 gal tender for deck height? Of course, I'm willing to bet that a quick check will show all Bowser locos to have a deck height of 82" so that they can interchange tenders! Happy Rails, Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser 130p tender was New Bachman K-4 Date: Thu, 21 Jan 99 10:20:52 -0500 From: Jerry X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: a6c73d8beb2f384d58df783a3e4f359d On 1/21/99 8:56 AM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >Yikes, that is a big assumption I made, not having measured the >tender...Jerry, can you check the Bowser 13,000 gal tender for deck height? >Of course, I'm willing to bet that a quick check will show all Bowser locos >to have a deck height of 82" so that they can interchange tenders! I'm at work now, but I commented on my K4_tenders page that the PRR builders photo of the 110-P-75 tender was damned near HO scale. When I laid either the Bachmann or the Bowser 13,000 gallon tender over it, the wheel locations and deck height matched exactly. I do believe these to be x-P-75 tenders. Both tenders also matched the photo in overall height. It was the length overall (13,000 gallon tender was naturally longer) and the location of the back of the coal bin that differed. Bachmann was too short for 110-P-75 and the Bowser matched the 110-P-75 which I felt it shouldn't since the 130-P-75 is supposed to hold more coal. I suspect Bowser made the new tender by using the same master as the former and just added some extra space in the water tank area. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:39:16 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West & Triumph Series (long) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 487024eddced4f987ac29380c9446c2b To Rick, Mark, and all The wife is out of the hospital, the snow and ice have melted and the boys are back in school. I'm coming backup for air. Since I started publicizing the Lines West meet, I've discovered a lot of Lines West fans out here. They all seem to think they are the only ones modeling Lines West while everyone else is modeling four-tracked mains and catenary. The problem may be one of concentration but remember that as late as 1960 the PRR was the largest private employer in Greene County (Xenia), Ohio. The more I learn about Pennsy and Panhandle facilities in Columbus and Cincinnati, the more I realize how much of a major player the Pennsy was in the Buckeye State. A review of magazine articles before and after the Merger reveals something interesting. As long as there was active railfanning of a live Pennsylvania railroad, there were plenty of stories about Lines West. John Armstrong's "!8 Tailor-made Track Plans" contains a design for a PRR passenger operations- focused layout based upon the PRR tracks and facilities in Richmond, Ind., where six PRR liens came together, five of which carried named trains, is just one example. Lines West virtually disappears from the radar screen as an article focus after 1968. Part of the problem is the concentration of corporate records on the eastern slope of the Alleghenies, in that station in eastern Pennsylvania whose name I currently can't recall and at the Hagley Museum Those with easiest access tend to write about what they are familiar with. While the best and most consistent source of information about Lines West has been the Keystone, the resulting dynamic is that many Lines West modelers have dropped their PRRT&HS memberships because of a perceived Lines East bias. What is particularly frustrating is the way many of the authors treat Lines West as a corporate Siberia or an excuse for sloppy research? The great PRR cliche is that whenever a Lines East writer is unable to find out information about some block of cars or engines, instead of working a little harder to complete the story, they just insert the line: "We assume the others were somewhere out on Lines West." Okay, please tell us just where on Lines West they were. The other cliche is that Lines West consisted solely of the Fort Wayne System mainline to Chicago and that the only facility of any import between Pittsburgh and the Windy City is Crestline. I remember the reception I received two year ago in this online community when I popped up out of cyberspace babbling about the Panhandle, trackage rights, single-tracked PRR mainlines and Fairbanks Morse and LH motive power. I lot of ya'll didn't quite know what to make of me. Such regional specialization is not unique to the Pennsy. Modelers of the eastern liens of the eSPee feel equally neglected. I see the Lines West Fans Fest as a baby step to correcting the situation. I also am preparing stories for publication from a Lines West point of view. A long term goal of mine is to develop a data base of available Lines West research materials available from libraries, museums and historical societies in Kentucky, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Missouri, Ohio, Pennsylvania and West Virginia (Gee, Lines east is only in Delaware, Maryland, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, Virginia and West Virginia, fewer states than served by Lines West). The current situation did not occur overnight and it will not correct itself quickly. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 15:17:53 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Lines West X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: dd9e8baeb4ec4aa9ff3fd64c09c7c797 In a message dated 1/21/99 12:29:56 PM SA Pacific Standard Time, dan@cwix.com writes: << There had to be some tax or financial reason behind all of this, but what was it? I suspect the PO&D/Connecting Ry. swap may have had something to do with the sale of the Columbus-Sandusky line to N&W. but it's pure speculation. >> Dan. On a number of occasions I've said that I thought that the Merger was a poison pill Broad Street fed the NYC. By the time it was finalized, most of the PRR profit centers had been spun off into freestanding corporations -- TrucTrain, N&W, Greyhound. All the NYC got was a bunch of duplicative lines paralleling its own. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:01:26 EST Subject: [PRR] Springfield Branch stuff X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 79b81e91c37eb8857e38fad3cbdc04ef I covered the decline for the Xenia Daily Gazette and am in the process of building a 10" representation of the Springfield branch from Oldtown (four miles north of Xenia through Yellow Springs to some point further north. My Grand plan is to Model the Panhandle Main through South Charleston and Cedarville to Xenia with the Springfield branch an DT&I as an out and back peninsula. Springfield branch dates: Last passenger run (doodlebug run out and back to Cincy once each day) September 1953, two sections (sleepers) of the Cinci-Dayton to Chicago The Union Crowles-Colliers' printing plant in Springfield closed March 1955 Shipping Colliers Magazine's weekly editions was the major revenue source of this line. Line abandoned from Xenia to Yellow Springs, 1964. With merger, Penn Central designates Columbus-Xenia-Cinci mainline the Columbus-Xenia Branch, through traffic shifted to Columbus-Springfield-Dayton NYC/Big Four line. C&X Branch (Little Miami RR) abandoned from Spring Valley to Rendcomb Junction 1976 Springfield branch abandoned between Yellow Springs and Beatty 1981 Springfield branch abandoned from Beatty to Springfield, 1984 Panhandle Main abandoned between London and Clement (CL&N'Hempstead Industrial junction on Dayton's eastern edge) 1986 Last through freight on the Little Miami Railroad, Jan, 10, 1987. The Dayton & Western, the LMRR's connection to New Paris was taken abandoned between Dodson and New Paris in the early 1980s but CSX kept the line open through Trotwood and Brookville until the early 1990s. The Panhandle main from London to Clement and the LMRR from Springfield to Milford live on as paved all-weather bikepaths, rails-to- trails conversions. I'd love to have your friend's address. I'm looking for sources of photos for an exhibit during the Lines West Fans Fest April 10 and 11 in Xenia. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TAN: eBay tip Date: Thu, 21 Jan 99 16:02:22 -0500 From: Jerry X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 6c0ce3d48dea75299ea9005001d75f8e For those of you who use eBay (online auction), they introduced a new feature several months ago but kept it very "hush, hush" for some reason. I found it about two months ago via the Site Map. There doesn't seem to be any links to it from most pages. It is called "My eBay". See http://pages.ebay.com/aw/myebay.html When you go to this page, you enter your eBay name and password, select a few favorite categories, then bounce to a page (which you can bookmark) which provides: * Quick links to all your favorite categories * A summary of your current feedback rating * A summary of all items you are selling * A summary of all items you are bidding on This all appears on one page. It's great! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 15:40:13 -0500 From: thompson@ridgeback.East.Sun.COM (Keith B. Thompson - Sun) Subject: [PRR] Passenger & MU car interiors X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 8449042c508031e51a854cd4a7a8d5e7 Hello, I am working on some (S scale) PRR passenger cars and MU cars and would like to find details on what the interiors looked like. I do have floor plans so I know generally where things were (from the great pages at http://PRR.Railfan.net/diagrams/). What I am looking for are things like: Materials used for seats, floors, etc.. Colors of walls, floors, seats, etc... Window dressings, lights,... Texture, Color and Detail (you can do a lot in S!) I've never seen a color photo of an interior so i'm pretty lost in that respect. I am modeling around 1949 and so far i have several heavyweight cars (coaches, baggage...) and an MU coach. I hope to do some lightweight cars in the future. Any recomendations and/or references will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, kbt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:29:46 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] P&E Traffic... X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: ed35b7bb83e756bfd85a47b3569fcfe2 Yes - Ore traffic "dried up" or was actually "watered down" as most was diverted to the "new" St. Lawrence seaway PRR had planned to keep I-1s and or J-1s operating indefinitely on the "Mount Carmel" line - but the Seaway did away with that Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 18:34:19 EST Subject: [PRR] LINES WEST (And in Other Directions) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 7ea1c959371387a0f3979a72a770f77e Folks, I realize we're a Pennsy talk group, but I'm glad to see the geographical emphasis situaton is not limited to hte P company (witness the NYC notes). Personally I'd like to see a convention of the PRRT&HS located somewhere more than an hour's drive from Lancaster once in a decade or so. I know about Pittsburgh a couple years ago, but the convention hotel was full before most of us got the registration forms. How about trying Chicago, Indy or maybe Columbus once in a while? As for the reletive lack of west-of-Pittsburgh coverage, well, I'd sure like to see more. But that's a phenonena by no means unusual. Some very interesting railroads ran long in nearly absolute solitude for their entire histories. Take the M&StL, CGW, and many other under-remarked lines like the Wabash, GTW, BAR, ACL and C&EI. How could they get overlooked while nearby (and often over exposed) operations like NKP, Monon and D&RGW were always in the hobby press? Beats me. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 18:04:36 EST Subject: [PRR] Lines West - PRR & NYC X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 29d96fc7e4a858aac920abb7e5ae0b54 Several list members have noted the lack of NYC material, compared to the PRR and the lack of Lines West material for the PRR. Although I am a "westerner" who grew up believing the real PRR was a Pittsburgh to Chicago line and that those electrics, etc., might as well have been in Europe I still think that it is "altogether fitting and proper" that the PRRT&HS is in Philly and that research and other material is as far west as Lewistown. Oddly, the NYC Society is headquartered here in Cleveland and though they wax eloquent about Hudsons on the Hudson their group seems to have a "Lines" focus - on the Railroad west of Buffalo....... For one reason or another the NYC never captured the "hearts and minds" of New York the way PRR did in Pa. Was it the Vanderbilts? Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 19:34:21 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West - PRR & NYC X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: c9fcdcf57075168ed2a550bbae36fa62 In a message dated 1/21/99 5:17:53 PM Central Standard Time, VVA249@aol.com writes: << or one reason or another the NYC never captured the "hearts and minds" of New York the way PRR did in Pa. Was it the Vanderbilts? >> Somewhere(might have been the Wreck of the Penn Central) I read that the focus of the Pennsy was in Philadelphia and that, oddly, the focus of the NYC was LaSalle St. in Chicago. Though this might have been mainly an organization rather than railfan thing, it might explain some of the thing that have happened to the NYC. If the focus was in Chicago, then it is easy to see why NYC got lost--Chicago never had a dominant railroad, IMHO, although you could say that grainger railroads in general won a lot of the hearts of the residents. I personally grew up with the B&OCT, Rock Island, and to a lesser extent, the Grand Trunk. Don't ask me how I came to be a Pennsy fan. It may have been a combination of the PennLine locos and the 1950 era timetable cover showing the J1 with H21s, M1 with X40b Mdse boxcars, and a Blue Ribbon Limited with E7s at Rockville in the winter. My mom and dad gave it to me after their trip to Florida on the Southland. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 20:48:00 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] TAN: eBay tip X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 8276cf72a51c26efb0c1bcb2c1e35b38 Jerry: If you click on BUYERS on the top bar you will go to another page the second item is the link to MYEBAY. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] Fw: NS and CSX Announce Readiness for June 1 Closing Date Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 20:37:36 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: e77963a45cac539067170abd308bf1cd >-----Original Message----- >From: NSINFO@nscorp.com >To: BLJQ31A@prodigy.com >Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 2:39 PM >Subject: NS and CSX Announce Readiness for June 1 Closing Date > > >>January 20, 1999 >> >>Contacts: Robert Fort >>Norfolk Southern Corporation >>(757) 629-2710 >> >>Elisabeth Gabrynowicz >>CSX Corporation >>(804) 782-1449 >> >>Norfolk Southern and CSX Announce Readiness for June 1 Conrail >>Transaction Closing Date >> >>NORFOLK and RICHMOND, VA -- Norfolk Southern Corporation (NYSE: NSC) >>and CSX Corporation (NYSE: CSX) jointly announced today that they will >>close the Conrail transaction on June 1, 1999, and begin operating >>their respective portions of Conrail's routes and assets. >> With the necessary customer service planning, capital improvement >>projects, employee training and labor implementing agreements now >>largely complete, and with computer systems integration testing under >>way, the June 1 date provides ample time for ensuring that post-Closing >>operations are seamless for rail customers and safe for employees and >>the communities that the railroads serve. >> "Our heightened readiness will give customers, stockholders, >>employees and communities a high degree of confidence that our expanded >>system will meet their expectations for safe, reliable rail service," >>said David R. Goode, Norfolk Southern chairman, president and chief >>executive officer. "We will avoid problems of the kind that could cause >>inconvenience to the public and thereby compromise expected operating >>and financial synergies. We want to get things right - from the start." >> John W. Snow, CSX chairman and chief executive officer, said, "We >>have been consistent in our definition of a successful integration, and >>we have gone to extraordinary lengths over the past 15 months to assure >>success. Any other approach would have been shortsighted. We are now >>within a few months of beginning the new era of railroading in the >>East, and we look forward to the high prospects it brings our >>customers, shareholders, employees and the public." >> After Closing, Norfolk Southern will operate about 7,200 miles of >>Conrail routes, creating a 21,600-mile rail system serving 22 states in >>the East, as well as in the District of Columbia and the Province of >>Ontario, Canada. CSX will operate approximately 4,000 miles of Conrail >>routes, resulting in a 22,300-mile rail system serving 23 states east >>of the Mississippi, the District of Columbia and Montreal and Ontario, >>Canada. >> Norfolk Southern Corporation, a Virginia-based holding company >>with headquarters in Norfolk, owns a major freight railroad, Norfolk >>Southern Railway, which will operate its portion of the Conrail >>properties. >> CSX Corporation, based in Richmond, Va., is an international >>transportation company providing rail, intermodal, container-shipping >>and contract logistics services worldwide. >> >> # # # >> >>------------- >>Norfolk Southern Corporation >>http://www.nscorp.com >> >>CSX Corporation >>http://www.csx.com >> >> >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 21:26:53 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West & Triumph Series (long) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: b2ee60343305f63042022d17d5d078cd In a message dated 1/21/99 7:58:34 AM Mountain Standard Time, LINESWEST@aol.com writes: << A long term goal of mine is to develop a data base of available Lines West research materials available from libraries, museums and historical societies in Kentucky, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Missouri, Ohio, Pennsylvania and West Virginia (Gee, Lines east is only in Delaware, Maryland, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, Virginia and West Virginia, fewer states than served by Lines West). The current situation did not occur overnight and it will not correct itself quickly. Tom V. >> I like this guy. For years I relied on my good freind Rick Tipton to instruct me on the specifics of Lines West stuff. Specifically, Cincinnati and the Panhandle. I only wish I could get to this Lines West fest being referred to. I guess I will have to rely on Rick to take good notes for me. Oh BTW, for those of us Lines far West guys, the PRR still lives. Recently, I shot pictures of an EMD lease unit here in the Colorado Springs yard. It was an ex-CR SD40, and believe it or not you could see Keystones under the paint. A true survivor. Stuart Thayer Dreamin' of Lines West while watching the Joint Line. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser 130p tender was New Bachman K-4 Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 22:33:34 -0600 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: cf8a10707229b10649f176e210a0923b Bruce, Jerry and the List--Nothing like a new PRR steam model to get the tender discussions going. Using the Keystone of Spring 1988 as the best available source of information on 110 series and 130 series tenders, we can take a look at what the HO manufacturers are doing (or not doing!) Bowser High Side, the "old K4 tender"--This was a poor model of the 90F75, the tender found most commonly behind L1's. A word about the F and P used in tender classifications: I am not certain why some tenders had a P and others seemingly identical had an F, but it was probably determined by whether the tender was equipped with steam heat piping for passenger trains. I am sure that it had nothing to do with whether it had a doghouse, witness the 110P75 class delivered with all the M1's when new. Many of these received doghouses but retained the P classification. Bowser "13,000 Gallon Tender"--The latest and greatest, but still not as good as it could be. The main defect is that it was apparently made too short to model the 130 series, which in turn distorts the locations of the rivet rows on the sides. Too bad; it would not have taken much more to get it right. Bowser did not see fit to incude details like markers, water scoop, or handrails, but the scoop and markers can be bought from CalScale/Bowser. In HO we could have used it for 130P75, 130F75, or 130F82. Bachmann K4 tender--I haven't seen it yet, but Jerry says there is a line of rivets where the slope sheet attaches to the sides, which makes it at least similar to Bachmann's first release. This marks the tender as not equipped with a stoker screw. Not what you would find behind a K4 with the "modernized" front end. However, it would be appropriate for a 1930's K4 as class 110P70 or with a Long Island Railroad G5 as class 110P82a. About the deck height: in HO it is not that big a deal. For stoker equipped tenders, it is either 75 (K4, L1, M1) or 82 (G5, I1). That is a difference of only 7 inches, and we have other more serious defects to overcome. The bottom line: still no accurate stoker equipped 110 series and no accurate 130 series, two very common tenders. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TAN: Withers Publishing Date: Fri, 22 Jan 99 08:05:50 -0500 From: Jerry X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 1589814e7705b1e1e85bb4f9a34bf90b Someone on the list e-mailed me about a week ago to see if I -- through "Merchandise Service" -- sold books from Withers Publishing. (They have the multi-volume Jack Hahn series on PRR motive power.) I erroneously deleted this e-mail message. If you're out there, please contact me again. I am now a Withers dealer if you still wish to make a purchase. For the record, I have added lots of new manufacturers lately, including Digital Image Works ("Conrail Horseshoe Curve Helpers" videois their latest) and Penn Valley Pictures (7 video collection of PRR including "The Ore Train"). If you haven't been by lately (http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com), please stop by. We now accept credit cards and will soon have online shopping capability. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose 4/3/1 Date: Fri, 22 Jan 99 08:44:47 -0500 From: Jerry X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5e4b2bf7591522ce70661cd3ce928d8c A few weeks ago I mentioned on the list that Red Caboose was planning to do a 4/3/1 in PRR. Knowing that there were more differences in subclasses of this unit than in the excellent X29 that they do, I solicited your input and found that this would be an X43 and the subclasses had various door sizes and roof types. I forwarded a summary of this info to RC, and here is part of their response (the original quote is mine): >> Dave told me about the 4/3/1 car being done in PRR for tentative release >> in February. Can you tell me about the door on that unit -- size, >> welded/riveted, etc.? > >The straight sidesill, X-46A, has not been done yet. This tooling will be >done, but release will be later this year. > >> The PRR's 4/3/1's were class X43. However, depending on the door type and >> arrangement, it would be one of a variety of subclasses. I just want to >> be sure your model matches the lettering job (they usually do!). Here is >> some data I would like to share on the X43 (source: posts from the >> "PRR-Talk" mailing list): > >I am pretty sure that the X-43 is an older car than we have. Correct me if I >am wrong. They are calling this car an X-46a. Comments? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 10:41:29 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser 130p tender was New Bachman K-4 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 520d0c1fe2ebfa73cf71dcc3320f88c7 Steven, Nice job summarizing for us! >A word about the F and P used >in tender classifications: I am not certain why some tenders had a P and >others seemingly identical had an F, but it was probably determined by >whether the tender was equipped with steam heat piping for passenger trains. You are 100% correct! A lengthy look at Pennsy Power (volume 1) gives a lot of very good information on tender classes associated with various locomotives. The P denotes "passenger" and means steam line equipped. These could obviously be used on freight engines, but the "F" tenders could not really be used for passenger work (Note that they could be used as helpers, so long as a "P" tender equipped loco was coupled directly to the passenger train). As you noted in your message, the M1 was equipped with "P" tenders, giving away their passenger hauling heritage. >Bowser High Side, the "old K4 tender"--This was a poor model of the 90F75, >the tender found most commonly behind L1's. Actually, you are talking about 2 different models! The K4 used to be shipped with the "low sided tender" (same as the Atlantic etc...) The High Side tender is indeed a 90F75/82. This tender should NOT be equipped with Keisel trucks...mine is :^< This tender is not a great model, as has been noted before, but is acceptable to run behind the L1 (75" deck) and I1 (82" deck) classes throughout their histories. A re-relaease of this tender with scale rivets would make it a pretty nice model! >The bottom line: still no accurate stoker equipped 110 series and no >accurate 130 series, two very common tenders. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 10:23:40 -0500 (EST) From: bobr@tridelta.com (Bob Rothrock) Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West - PRR & NYC X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 3a14f925cd5da24eb42d94cd77e555e4 At 06:04 PM 1/21/99 EST, VVA249@aol.com wrote: > Oddly, the NYC Society is headquartered here in Cleveland and though they wax >eloquent about Hudsons on the Hudson their group seems to have a "Lines" focus >- on the Railroad west of Buffalo....... For one reason or another the NYC >never captured the "hearts and minds" of New York the way PRR did in Pa. Was >it the Vanderbilts? >Dick Ross > Great question, and one I've wondered about for a long time. Something that comes to mind is an old "Professional Iconoclast" column in Trains magazine, wherein John Kneiling was comparing the differences in attitudes toward railfan groups in the New York/Philly/Jersey area during the 40's and 50's. Kneiling was reknown for avoiding anything bordering on nostalgia (i.e., this was in the 70's, and he was being paid to comment on the railroad business) but his recollections were clearly that the Pennsy always gave the added effort (extra coaches, extra photo stops, etc.) to accomodate the enthusiasts, while the NYC generally provided equipment that was one jump away from the R.I.P. track, staffed with employees oozing contempt, or at best, indifference toward camera-toting types of that day. Given enough of these occurrences (if accurate), it's not hard to imagine people aiming their lenses in other directions. Bob Rothrock ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 10:48:13 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] P&E Traffic...Shamokin Steam, etc... X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 3673af189572dc475a05043805e2d251 In a message dated 99-01-21 16:29:46 EST, you write: << Subj: Re: [PRR] P&E Traffic... Date: 99-01-21 16:29:46 EST From: VVA249 To: PRRSignals, prr-talk@dsop.com Yes - Ore traffic "dried up" or was actually "watered down" as most was diverted to the "new" St. Lawrence seaway PRR had planned to keep I-1s and or J-1s operating indefinitely on the "Mount Carmel" line - but the Seaway did away with that D >> ******hahahha, well put !!! A shame, as the / our government kind of destroyed that service....AND imported ore started showing up in the other direction from Eastern Seaboard ports....but, no more Mount Carmel Ore Trains !!!....bill*** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: Re: [PRR] P&E Traffic...Shamokin Steam, etc... Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:04:12 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: c46c19ae41a22dfa082700a4474d8442 -----Original Message----- From: PRRSignals@aol.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 12:36 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] P&E Traffic...Shamokin Steam, etc... >In a message dated 99-01-21 16:29:46 EST, you write: > ><< Subj: Re: [PRR] P&E Traffic... > Date: 99-01-21 16:29:46 EST > From: VVA249 > To: PRRSignals, prr-talk@dsop.com > > Yes - Ore traffic "dried up" or was actually "watered down" as most was >diverted to the "new" St. Lawrence seaway > PRR had planned to keep I-1s and or J-1s operating indefinitely on the >"Mount Carmel" line - but the Seaway did away with that > D >> >******hahahha, well put !!! A shame, as the / our government kind of destroyed >that service....AND imported ore started showing up in the other direction >from Eastern Seaboard ports....but, no more Mount Carmel Ore Trains >!!!....bill*** Question. I was always under the impression that the ore arriving at the east coast was mostly foreign ore (Venezuelan, etc) and the ex-lake ore that was going to the P&E docks at Erie and therefore the reason for the Mt. Carmel trains was diverted to the better C&P docks at Whiskey Island thus consolidating the PRR's lake ore operations. Are you saying that the lake ore boats (at that time probably mostly carrying taconite pellets) bypassed all of the railroad ore docks on Lake Erie (B&O, EL, PRR, NYC, B&LE, etc) and went down the St. Lawrence Seaway out to the ocean and down the coast to unload at east coast ports? I find this very interesting. Was their back haul still coal? Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Lancaster, Pa. Date: Fri, 22 Jan 99 14:52:19 -0500 From: Jerry X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 174bd9e801281f0f12a679832c170713 Looking for photos of CORK tower, Lancaster, Pa., and any other drawings or photos of the area. Anyone know of any accessible sources? I see that Vol. 13 #3 of The Keystone has an article entitled "Passenger Train Watching, Lancaster, 1930's". Anyone have this? No, don't send it, I can order it. I just want to know if it offers a good overview of Lancaster structures and operations. This is to help me model CORK interlocking in HO. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 15:08:12 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Bachman K4 tender-last word? X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 1b26d5cc9388fc00da860ab1d06492dd Hi all, My K4 arrived at lunch today from Jerry (Thanks Jerry!) and I spent 30 min or so going over it with a fine tooth comb. Here is my fist impression: Tender: This is an accurate model of a 7 brace 110P70 (Type 2). This tender was in service from 1926 to 1938, and as has been mentioned, was not stoker equipped. The rivet lines along the slope sheets, and the coal spaces are accurate. I have no top views to tell if the hatches are accurate or not. There is even the correct set of very short rivet lines over the rear truck center line, top and bottom of the tank (missing on every Bowser Keisel tender). This model cannot be easily modified to later 110P75 models as the coal bunker is too small. I would suggest scratch building new sides, and the cutting the existing sides free of the deck, bunker and ends. Then, cut the slope sheet free of the deck, shorten the deck (or replace it), glue the sides and slope sheet back on and fabricate the rest of the coal bunker (actually a shallow deck to hold real coal and allow Sountraxx decoder space below would be good!). Locomotive: The model has the complete "modern" front end as I expected. That is to say, cast pilot, generator in front of the headlight and platform on the smokebox front. The paint is okay, although the edges of the "red" on the roof and tender are a little ragged, and the smokebox is too silver for my taste. The roof and tender deck are close to Freight car color as opposed to a real "red". The lettering is buff enamel, so it represents a mid to late 50's scheme. The coal load is plastic, and should be dullcoted or better yet, replaced with a more realistic load. The trailing truck is not "sprung" as I believe some have said, but does have a spring at the attachment point with the body. The center driver is sprung, the wheels are blackened (and the valve gear and rods too, I recall). The cab contains 2 crew and backhead detail, including a stoker (hmmmm). Overall, sitting next to my $400 brass K4, it looks pretty darn good. At 1/4 the cost, it looks REALLY GOOD! Some weathering to dull down the highlights, an added detail or two, and you've got one very nice model. My plans for my model? Well, I can't leave well enough alone...Initially, I'll just weather it, but then... 1) change the front back to original config (can't decide if the pilot has to go yet) 2) repaint w/o red roof/deck (while debated by some, my info says that this is really a '50s thing) and decal w/ gold lettering 3) use my new NWSL riveter tool to make 110P75A tender sides, and modify the tender accordingly ( I can confidently say that the likely hood of this happening in this century is pretty low ). 'nuff said, I'm off to play with my new train! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] Lancaster, Pa. Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 15:56:25 -0600 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 45b9b7e6f79ed820c09ae2af5a379e3b Jerry--Order it. It is one of the better issues with articles on L1's and G22 gons as well as "Passenger Train watching in the 1940's". Photos won't help much in modeling specific buildings, but some of those still may exist. There is a track diagram. Enjoy. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL -----Original Message----- From: Jerry To: PRR-Talk Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 3:41 PM Subject: [PRR] Lancaster, Pa. >Looking for photos of CORK tower, Lancaster, Pa., and any other drawings >or photos of the area. Anyone know of any accessible sources? > >I see that Vol. 13 #3 of The Keystone has an article entitled "Passenger >Train Watching, Lancaster, 1930's". Anyone have this? No, don't send it, >I can order it. I just want to know if it offers a good overview of >Lancaster structures and operations. > >This is to help me model CORK interlocking in HO. Thanks. > >------------------------------------------------------------------ >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS > Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. >Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! >WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! > The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on >special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Timonium Next Weekend Date: Fri, 22 Jan 99 15:38:56 -0500 From: Jerry X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: afe5ba17906f539b74bebd4b90451c04 Anyone going to the Timonium (Md.) show next weekend (Jan. 30-31)? I plan to go on Saturday...will probably be there when it opens. Perhaps we can arrange a meet? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TAN: Format announcement of PSU game during convention Date: Fri, 22 Jan 99 15:24:07 -0500 From: Jerry X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 10b780b1013bdd98b05d6f6aede52847 Penn State made the formal announcement today that it will host the Pigskin Classic in State College at 1 p.m. on Saturday, August 28th. It IS considered an extra home game with season ticket holders receiving their normal seats, I have been informed. This means that it WILL impact hotel availability in Altoona, just 45 minutes away, which will be the site of the PRRT&HS Convention that same weekend. So make your reservations NOW if you haven't already done so. For hotel info, see http://kc.pennsyrr.com/timetable.html For PSU announcement, see http://www.psu.edu/sports/football/012299pigskin.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:29:18 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] P&E Traffic...Shamokin Steam, etc... X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: feca91c8f7f9736bfaa7bf61f6fafbd0 Al as far as the Bethlehem ore trains were concerned the opening of the seaway had nothing to do with the end of the Erie-Bethlehem ore traffic. What killed off this traffic was the opening of the Grace mine on the Readings Wilmington and Northern Branch in Johanna Pa. Beth Steel opened this mine in 59 or 60 . It was a deep mine and above ground looked like an industrial building and not a mine. It had the capability to mine and process the ore with the result being a higher grade product than what was coming from the Missabe. As far as I have found out the last ore trains on the Shamokin Br ran in 1959 so the lets keep some I-1 and J-1 in steam until they drop doesn't seem to be the case as the traffic outlasted the locos. Maybe if the Missabe had started taconite processing earlier Beth Steel may not have opened the Grace facility. Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 18:19:15 EST Subject: [PRR] Bachman K4 and roof/deck color (was Bachman K4 tender-last X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: ddf3ba089c3f76b568705dbed031c891 In a message dated 1/22/99 3:48:31 PM Central Standard Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << repaint w/o red roof/deck (while debated by some, my info says that this is really a '50s thing) and decal w/ gold lettering >> Roof/deck got so dirty so fast it was hard to tell. However, it might have been around in the 50s but it dates from before WWII. I have some video in that era or just a little later which shows it clearly (Pennsy locos were cleaner in those days, especially passenger). I weather the heck out of the deck/roof and the shiny smokeboxes, too. And sprinkle some realistic coal on top of the plastic load. To take the easy route (rather than repaint) I apply an even coating of a soot-black-green chalk mix to get at least a semblance of DGLE to the finish. My comment on the Bachman K4 is as follows: Negative: details are a little delicate (i.e., old Thumbs Zoeller knocks them off easily, especially the front step) I prefer a less modern version (though modernization started in 1947, so it is still compatible with my era). Dare we hope Bachman backdates the next production model. No more comment needed on the tender. Positive (and predominantly so): Runs smoothly, no lope. Not as quiet as my Bowser mountain with Helix humper, but quite acceptable. Haven't tested the pulling power yet. It is DCC ready !!! I love the close-coupling arrangement. I love the blackened drivers and weathered appearance of the rods. Combination of these last two makes this an exceptional loco in realistic appearance. It comes with a front coupler, McHenry I guess. A little difficult to fit a Kadee, but the McHenry is acceptable. Did I mention it was DCC ready ?! :-) Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FarbLand@aol.com Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 18:13:10 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR H30a X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 03aec9ec16b6eb80e08f471eed030186 Ok I finally got my decals from overland to finish my Brass H30a covered hopper, and much to my suprise in addition to the normal data I expected they carried some different return to locations. One of them being Buffalo NY. Being a Buffalo area native I was wondering if anyone on the list has a roster of these cars and service info since I'd like to use the return to Buffalo if possible. If I had to guess they probably serviced "Concrete Central" or the former "Independant Cement" plant near Bethleham Steel. and also near Seneca yard. Thanks Brian J Carlson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] Catenary question Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:52:55 -0500 (EST) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 2699db36f2990cfab00a9a4b9be16c36 Guys: A question came up in private email. Anyone know the answer to this? The answer may be in the catenary issues of the _Keystone_. If so, please just say so. I'm at work, not at home, and therefore, the _Keystones_ are not immediately available to me. The catenary pole construction on the Paoli line is notably different from the NEC and the remainder of the system. This of course reflects the earlier construction and the lack of plans, at least at that time, of extending the wires farther. Questions: Does the Paoli line have substations? (Its shortness could allow it to be fed from each end, and possibly from one location.) The shortness of the segment is presumably why it has no high-tension lines, yes? Can it get power from the other segments, or is it an entirely separate system? Does it have the ancillary power lines found on the NEC, specifically, the signal line? (The Electrical Operating Instructions for both PRR and AMTK had diagrams, but these always show a typical NEC arrangement.) And while I'm throwing out trivia questions, here's another: Vertical pole design. There were: * the most common, 'standard', I-beam variety; * round poles (near Wilmington, as I recall; ??also near Newark Itlk Airport) * wooden poles (Enola, elsewhere) * the special Paoli variety. * the humongous bridge-style with 2 legs per side Any other kinds? I'm thinking only of pole construction (appearence, cross-section, etc.), not height, etc.; there were the "catenary only" variety as on the High Line, and the "no high-tension line" variety, as in Washington DC and elsewhere; and of course, a large variety of horizontal cross-pieces, but these I was ignoring for the purposes of these questions. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] PRR operations on the Panhandle in the 40's. From: Fred G Rea Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:51:52 EST X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 370e3bc723ed77e4781e03eb430d416d Can any one fill me in on what locos would be prototypical for modeling a portion of the Panhandle near Dennison Ohio. I remember a lot of steam and a lot of double headers. I was born in 1938 so you can gauge the accuracy of these memories. One phenomena I remember is that the water plugs were spaced for double headed short locos, probably K-4s. Then when longer locos (M1 or T1) the train would stop, take water, move a bit and take water again, or stop short of the plugs and cut on or both engines off. Also,in my memories Dennison had minimal engine facilities and double headers seemed to be long distance deals, not a helper that goes up the hill and drifts back. I am particularly interested in the transition with mixed steam and diesel assignment. For the record, my HO version of this now has 2 K-4's, a T-1 and a PA+PB set. I have multi-track balloons at each end of a double track main and want to give a typical but not nit pick proof representation. Want to, eventually, have a general passenger (coaches,diner,pullmans) and a mail train (many head end and a rider coach or caboose). Maybe, way in the future, an all pullman train that does not stop or stops very briefly. During an operating session a set of equipment can make several passes in either direction, each as a different train name or #. I am aiming for 1948 but could move earlier to get more steam in the picture. Any help from any of you? What loco's do I need? or, heaven forbid, get rid of? Fred Rea ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:15:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR operations on the Panhandle in the 40's. X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 2cc810c15ad67833e3d614973f371d5f Cecil G. Howell in his book "The Building of the Pan Handle Division of the Pennsylvania Railroad" lists those steam locomotives which he personally observed on the Panhandle. These include I-1 (the most predominant), J-1, M-1, T-1, K-4, B-6, H-9, G-5, L-1, and H-10. He also notes that all of the T-1, some J-1 and a few M-1 had trainphones. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 20:17:18 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] LINES WEST (And in Other Directions) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5cedd03949f8feb977cc156a95d10fe9 Yor're quite correct, Camp Hill is a suburb of Harrisburg, on the west side of the river. I was at the convention there about, what was it, four years ago? I thought the location was very attractive and quite enjoyable, and the facilities were also very nice. I don't recall the nane of the hotel/convemtion center and I think it's been changed since then, but is probably the same place. (there's a McDonalds right across the street if it is). I guess my general complaint is the disregard for folks who live further west than the Main Line by the powers that be. Now I can't argue that Lancaster, harrisburg, Altoona and Wilmington are not great places to hold Pennsy conventions, because they all are. But it would be nice to throw the net a little wider once in a while and use a town where the Pennsy may have been only one of many railroabut still a major player. And I gotta beleive that Indy or Chicago has more model railroading going on than Harrisburg, where there wasn't a single layout tour the year I was there. Maybe a possible solution would be to hold an alternate or mini-convention once a year, rather like the B&O group was doing. Possibly there would be a good turnout of Lines West types and the diehards from further east. After all, large as it was the Pennsy covered a smaller area than many other railroads with a large following. I have to think of societies like the Milwaukee Road's where the lines spanned 2200 miles.Even the Soo ran something like 1300 miles east to west. If these folks can do it, maybe we could too. But maybe that's too much wishful thinking. That much cooperation might be too much for the old masters to comtemplat, or they'd think it was some kind of competition issue. Oh well. Best regards, Barry Peltier St. Paul, MN ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:20:26 -0500 From: DDembinski Subject: Re: [PRR] LINES WEST (And in Other Directions) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 63af593d39caa78d852ce3924a9af31b Regarding the location of the PRRT&HS annual meeting, the Autumn 1998 issue of THE KEYSTONE has an article giving an overview of the annual meeting held in May of 1998 in Lancaster, PA. After discussion of the arrangements being made for the upcoming Altoona convention, the topic of finding a "relatively permanent" location for future meetings was discussed. It was determined that the "centrally-located" Radisson Hotel located in Camp Hill, PA would best fit the needs of the society. "The majority of the business meeting attendees were in concurrence" concluded the paragraph on this subject. Using my DELORME Streetfinder software, Camp Hill appears to be a suburb of Harrisburg, PA. Looks like 1999 is THE YEAR if any of the Lines West'ers want to travel any relatively reduced distance to enjoy the convention. In the defense of the society, there's probably more members in the Harrisburg/Philadelphia area than west of Pittsburgh. (But those would be interesting figures to see!) Another good assumption would be that the "majority of the business meeting attendees" were also from the Harrisburg/Philadelphia area. BPX29@aol.com wrote: > Folks, > I realize we're a Pennsy talk group, but I'm glad to see the geographical > emphasis situaton is not limited to hte P company (witness the NYC notes). > Personally I'd like to see a convention of the PRRT&HS located somewhere more > than an hour's drive from Lancaster once in a decade or so. I know about > Pittsburgh a couple years ago, but the convention hotel was full before most > of us got the registration forms. How about trying Chicago, Indy or maybe > Columbus once in a while? > As for the reletive lack of west-of-Pittsburgh coverage, well, I'd sure like > to see more. But that's a phenonena by no means unusual. Some very interesting > railroads ran long in nearly absolute solitude for their entire histories. > Take the M&StL, CGW, and many other under-remarked lines like the Wabash, GTW, > BAR, ACL and C&EI. How could they get overlooked while nearby (and often over > exposed) operations like NKP, Monon and D&RGW were always in the hobby press? > Beats me. > Barry Peltier > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ODyard@aol.com Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 20:47:10 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] P&E Traffic...Shamokin Steam, etc... X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 9d911260a2963bf481ee5c57432d1f2c I've lost track of the original writer but here's my input on traffic on the old Renovo Division circa 1946-the year I model it. BEC2 and BEC 3- ran from Buffalo to Erie via Corry and the Renovo Division and then to Crestline. EK1 and EK2-the Erie-Kane Local. Connected with the EP1 and EP2- Erie to Conway via the E&P Branch of the E&A Division EW1 and EW2- I noted a reference to this train in an old time book from 1948 and, I think, on the searchable data base for cabin cars-search on Northern Division or Renovo Division and click on the car #s for train assignments of the individual cars. The aforementioned W5 and W2. My operating sessions run these in a fast clock driven session based on the actual schedule of times. Don Murphy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Timonium Next Weekend Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:40:47 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5850f995e8c44ce2eff477641f1f38e5 Jerry, Look me up I'll be there at "Mikes Trains" working ( well at least drinking coffee !) Bill ---------- > From: Jerry > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: [PRR] Timonium Next Weekend > Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 3:38 PM > > Anyone going to the Timonium (Md.) show next weekend (Jan. 30-31)? > > I plan to go on Saturday...will probably be there when it opens. Perhaps > we can arrange a meet? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS > Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. > Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! > The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Re: Future PRRT&HS Conventions Date: Fri, 22 Jan 99 19:33:22 -0500 From: Jerry X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: a0de7e2fcfb60ecebfc2b7bf9d8fc131 On 1/22/99 7:20 PM, DDembinski (DDembinski@Centuryinter.net) wrote: >the topic of finding a "relatively permanent" location for future meetings >was >discussed. It was determined that the "centrally-located" Radisson Hotel >located in Camp >Hill, PA would best fit the needs of the society. "The majority of the >business meeting >attendees were in concurrence" concluded the paragraph on this subject. I am quite happy with that as a permanent location, as it is only 15 minutes from my home! However, many will agree, and I concur, that the vote was a sham. The "majority" was determined by a show of hands that, in the opinion of many, was dead even. But the "management" announced that they had overwhelming support! There were immediate moans and groans. I'm sure 2000 will be in Camp Hill, but I doubt the subject is closed. >Using my DELORME >Streetfinder software, Camp Hill appears to be a suburb of Harrisburg, PA. You are quite correct. Harrisburg was laid out in the ???'s...suffice it to say, long ago. Its western edge was the (then) great Susquehanna River. The settlement grew north, east, and south, but kept its original western edge on the bank. A ferry carried folks to the other side. At some point the settlements of Wormleysburg, Bridgeport (now Lemoyne), New Market (now New Cumberland) and Camp Hill took place. Over the past century, they have grown so much together that it is impossible for the visitor to know when they exit one town and enter the next! The only difference between Camp Hill and Harrisburg is the one mile wide river between them and the seven bridges (two railroad) that cross there. The entire area is considered "greater Harrisburg". For conventions, fly into Harrisburg International (HIA), take the train or bus into Harrisburg, drive e/w via I-76 (Turnpike), drive ssw to nne via I-81/78, or drive nnw to sse via Rt. 322/22. Very good access from all directions. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Future PRRT&HS Conventions Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 22:02:50 -0500 (EST) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 04b1eb576a88caf520dcfbd413e5dcbb > some point the settlements of Wormleysburg, Bridgeport (now Lemoyne), New > Market (now New Cumberland) and Camp Hill took place. Over the past Jerry, you were doing so well! Camp Hill used to be White Hill. > century, they have grown so much together that it is impossible for the > visitor to know when they exit one town and enter the next! Different color cop car watching for speeders? :-) > The only difference between Camp Hill and Harrisburg is the one mile wide > river between them and the seven bridges (two railroad) that cross there. > The entire area is considered "greater Harrisburg". 2.5 bridges? 3.5 bridges if you throw in Rockville? Flying in from Minneapolis may not be terribly easy; Might be easier to fly to Pittsburgh, then ride the train; or to Cleveland, take the train (RTA Airport line) to the train (Amtrak station), then take either the Three Rivers or the Pennsylvanian to Harrisburg. Or to Philadelphia, take the R1 from the Airport to 30th St, thence the train west. Or BWI or Newark, thence the train ... Or ... :-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: RE: [PRR] Lancaster, Pa. Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 21:38:09 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: a18acad046781bf4f6be8d606dadc72c If you want to get a view from the cab, try Railroad Video Productions Pennsylvanian cabride number one, Philly-Harrisburg. -Josh Trower ---------- From: Jerry[SMTP:jerry@dsop.com] Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 2:52 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Lancaster, Pa. Looking for photos of CORK tower, Lancaster, Pa., and any other drawings or photos of the area. Anyone know of any accessible sources? I see that Vol. 13 #3 of The Keystone has an article entitled "Passenger Train Watching, Lancaster, 1930's". Anyone have this? No, don't send it, I can order it. I just want to know if it offers a good overview of Lancaster structures and operations. This is to help me model CORK interlocking in HO. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 21:59:59 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] USRA Roundhouses X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 3f8fb5a864d726e17607bc80bf0c4c3b The Canton, OH area (Fairhope) roundhouse can be added to the list of similarly designed W.W.I era roundhouses. The roundhouse was part of a completely new yard including other buildings, which were to replace the aging and smaller ones in Alliance, OH. The roundhouse was about 500 feet in outside diameter, slightly greater than 180 degrees around, had 30 stalls, and a turntable of 110 feet in length. The first work began on the yard on August 8, 1917. Construction continued through 1920 and included a machine shops with a transfer table and a RR YMCA. The roundhouse was razed circa 1960, and definitely prior to August, 1962. The machine/repair shop, transfer table and old YMCA structures still stand. I would imagine that since the yard work was underway prior to the USRA takeover, probably the roundhouse was at least on the drawing board, if not completed. The design was probably used a standard for their other roundhouses as well. I have a nice old postcard picture of the roundhouse, and there are some photos in the Keystone Vol. 17 #4, although you only see glimpses of the roundhouse from around the locomotives since they were the main reason for the pictures being taken. My postcard is better. Regards, Dennis Sautters Canton, OH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 00:20:04 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] P&E Traffic...Shamokin Steam, Venezuela takes over, X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 6816f40f4fc85ad985947e6620304ccc In a message dated 99-01-22 13:04:26 EST, you write: << Subj: Re: [PRR] P&E Traffic...Shamokin Steam, etc... Date: 99-01-22 13:04:26 EST From: abbuchan@familyconnect.net (Alan Buchan) To: PRRSignals@aol.com, prr-talk@dsop.com -----Original Message----- From: PRRSignals@aol.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 12:36 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] P&E Traffic...Shamokin Steam, etc... >In a message dated 99-01-21 16:29:46 EST, you write: > ><< Subj: Re: [PRR] P&E Traffic... > Date: 99-01-21 16:29:46 EST > From: VVA249 > To: PRRSignals, prr-talk@dsop.com > > Yes - Ore traffic "dried up" or was actually "watered down" as most was >diverted to the "new" St. Lawrence seaway > PRR had planned to keep I-1s and or J-1s operating indefinitely on the >"Mount Carmel" line - but the Seaway did away with that > D >> >******hahahha, well put !!! A shame, as the / our government kind of destroyed >that service....AND imported ore started showing up in the other direction >from Eastern Seaboard ports....but, no more Mount Carmel Ore Trains >!!!....bill*** Question. I was always under the impression that the ore arriving at the east coast was mostly foreign ore (Venezuelan, etc) and the ex-lake ore that was going to the P&E docks at Erie and therefore the reason for the Mt. Carmel trains was diverted to the better C&P docks at Whiskey Island thus consolidating the PRR's lake ore operations. Are you saying that the lake ore boats (at that time probably mostly carrying taconite pellets) bypassed all of the railroad ore docks on Lake Erie (B&O, EL, PRR, NYC, B&LE, etc) and went down the St. Lawrence Seaway out to the ocean and down the coast to unload at east coast ports? I find this very interesting. Was their back haul still coal? Al >> **** ***I had questioned the Lake Ore Boats travelling thru the St. Lawrence, as Lake Boats were virtually "powered barges" and I would not consider them seaworthy at all.They had enough problems ( Edmund Fitzgerald, etc. ) on the lakes without challenging Ocean currents. My history on the ore traffic as follows: Beginning in 1954, foreign ore started showing up, as North American Hematite was dwindling, and taconite recovery costs were climbing. >From high school chemistry, Magnetite =~ 60%, Hematite =~ 40 %, and taconite =~20%, approx. Tac had to be sintered, broken up, crushed and melted to retrieve the iron ore, an additional and expensive process. Memory of a sintering plant at Saxonburg...??? The Sparrows Point plant also did use magnetite imported from Norway. Bethlehem started mining operations on a smaller scale in Venezuela, Elpao was one of their mines ( forget others...). Their ore went mostly to Sparrows Point, Bethlehem and Steelton plants, Eastern easy access. Their Lackawanna, Burns Harbor and Johnstown plants were still fed Lake Ore. When USSteel set up their Orinoco Mining operation in Venezuela, it went to a much larger scale than competitor Bethlehem, and they enjoyed the 'beauty' of strip mining rich hematite ore, really close to the surface !! I recall Sierra Bolivar, and there were 2 other 'mines'. AND, their loaded ore travelled Down grade to port !!! A Day Off !!! "Snap-" or panel track was laid right on the surface for mine area trackage, and 'bumped" by loaders into new alignments !! Six axle Baldwins were used, and EMDs, but the Baldwins were the preferred luggers !!! With 26 schedule brakes, no less, far ahead of USA !! ( Geesh, still riding Erie RS3's with 6 schedule brakes...) Circa 1958, the B&LE was receiving reverse flow ore from the PRR at Butler, a miserable and hard climb for both RR';s. Break-in-twos, etc. were common operating troubles. That was when you saw pix of Westbound Ore along the PRR, as the flow pattern was reversed from earlier times. We well remembered seeing westward ore loads and eastward coal loads going by our Benny "Cliffs" camp=out location. That Shamokin-Mount Carmel route was also a nut-buster, with miserable curves and grades, especially on the Lehigh Valley Portion. The Ore Train Movie by C. Weaver "Jokes" about the LV New F units only taking "half of the train", but if he had studied the LV track chart a bit, there was no way the Great PRR I1s could handle that tonnage on the LV either. Another snake-path RR Branch, as the map well shows. 1960 was a record shipping year for Orinoco, as the USA market had been captured extensively. Later on, more native help was trained, and USA personnel were relieved of their duties. One wag remarked that of the foreign workers at the Orinoco Operations in Venezuela = The Americans were sharp, the Brazilians were good, and the Germans, well, were perfect !!!! Once the natives took over, the operations more resembled the old rhyme: "Up hill Slow / Down hill fast / Tonnage first / Safety Last !!!!!" I am gonna check with ( famous author / NKP, etc ) Eric Hirsimaki about Lake Boats traveling farther, let alone out to Sea. He would know definitively, as he had time with the Lake ( Boat ) Carriers Association. Mostly from a fading memory, butt......Hope this helps explain more, Bill********* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 01:07:26 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR Ore = RDG Johanna Mine X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 75f91cceca9b633756a21e6c63e59dfc ***Thanks fer that reminder, Ken - As we enjoyed chasing those apple green brand new RDG GP40s on that turn !! Correct me if I am Wrong, but I ASSumed Johanna traffic was only dedicated to Beth's Bethlehem plant, and nowhere else. Thx, bill***** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 00:48:46 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Catenary question X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5245de14ffc17256be17d15321a08e9f In a message dated 99-01-22 18:04:11 EST, you write: << Guys: A question came up in private email. Anyone know the answer to this? >> ****If you send me the mail, and I will answer it directly. bill*** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 00:52:31 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Catenary question X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 7b1b6c09ebbd2843a0a53b9cc0573f83 Howdy All: The Paoli (as built) electrification included a step down substation at Paoli, Bryn Mawr, West Philadelphia and Chestnut Hill (Allen Lane). A condenser station was built at Radnor. The step-down stations at Paoli, Bryn Mawr and Allen Lane used voltage at 44 Kilovolts. The Allen Lane substation was rated at 6000KVA, the Paoli station was rated at 10,000 Kilovolt amps while the Bryn Mawr station had a capacity of 14,000 KVA. These stations where more than likely enclosed and looked like a two to three story brick tower with no windows. Comparing these small substations to the usual PRR step-down substations that used a primary transmission voltage of 132Kilovolts and a typical KVA rating of 18000 KVA. The catenary system consisted of a simple tube steel pole with cross-catenary between the poles supporting the messenger cable which in turn supported the trolley wire. Spaced about 300 feet apart The power was delivered by Philadelphia Electric at 13.2KV 25 cycles (Hz) to the Arsenal Bridge substation, where it was stepped up to 44 KV for transmission to the various substations. This next paragraph is just my opinion based on photographic evidence and current medium voltage (25 to 100 Kilovolt) transmission theory. Due to the lower voltage of the Paoli electrification the need for extensive towers and insulation was not required, 44KV vs 132KV of the later electrification. The views that I have of the structure of the original Paoli electrification show that the towers support a cross member with 4 cables on them. The spacing and smaller insulator would be consistent for a 44KV dual single phase circuit transmission scheme. Since the PRR was just learning how to do it, the 44KV was probably also used to supply signal voltage - just a guess on my part - And the only other kind of poles that I can think of are some lattice style that I think they used in the Broad Street Station area and the Faimount Park area Cos wsbcos.com Mark Bej wrote: > Guys: > > A question came up in private email. Anyone know the answer > to this? > > The answer may be in the catenary issues of the _Keystone_. If so, > please just say so. I'm at work, not at home, and therefore, the > _Keystones_ are not immediately available to me. > > The catenary pole construction on the Paoli line is notably different > from the NEC and the remainder of the system. This of course > reflects the earlier construction and the lack of plans, at least at > that time, of extending the wires farther. > > Questions: > > Does the Paoli line have substations? (Its shortness could allow it > to be fed from each end, and possibly from one location.) > > The shortness of the segment is presumably why it has no high-tension > lines, yes? > > Can it get power from the other segments, or is it an entirely separate > system? > > Does it have the ancillary power lines found on the NEC, specifically, > the signal line? > > (The Electrical Operating Instructions for both PRR and AMTK had diagrams, > but these always show a typical NEC arrangement.) > > And while I'm throwing out trivia questions, here's another: Vertical pole > design. There were: > * the most common, 'standard', I-beam variety; > * round poles (near Wilmington, as I recall; ??also near Newark Itlk Airport) > * wooden poles (Enola, elsewhere) > * the special Paoli variety. > * the humongous bridge-style with 2 legs per side > > Any other kinds? I'm thinking only of pole construction (appearence, > cross-section, etc.), not height, etc.; there were the "catenary only" > variety as on the High Line, and the "no high-tension line" variety, > as in Washington DC and elsewhere; and of course, a large variety of > horizontal cross-pieces, but these I was ignoring for the purposes of > these questions. > > -- > Mark > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 01:21:04 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR ore = Bethlehem... X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5140bc68f37967c07dbdad8d10a73e57 ***Re: Ken's note about Johanna Mine runs... I just looked up my notes, and apparently the Johanna Mine was not enough for the hungry furnaces at Bethlehem, as in 1968, working PU Tower / Phillipsburg ( map posted previously ) I handled the Ore Interchange traffic off of the PRR Bel-Del Line up the steep grade to the LV-CNJ track level. Whatta sound during third trick !!! The entire town had to know we were making that move !!! Power was multiple F units, or multiple flame-throwing Alco RS3's. That was the imported ore that I mentioned in my post, feeding the Beth Steel Eastern Plants, including Bethlehem. Rich A. - do you remember that Ore Traffic ???? ......bill**** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 08:15:46 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] P&E Traffic...Shamokin Steam, Venezuela takes over, X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: d0f4bdafd942dfaf097edf54c5bb323d Howdy All: How did the Bethlehem Cornwall ore fit into this picture? If I remember correctly the pit and the concentrator were open till the mid 60's? Or is this a better question for the Reading List? Cos wsbcos.com PRRSignals@aol.com wrote: > > Yes - Ore traffic "dried up" or was actually "watered down" as most was > >diverted to the "new" St. Lawrence seaway > > PRR had planned to keep I-1s and or J-1s operating indefinitely on the > >"Mount Carmel" line - but the Seaway did away with that > > D >> > >******hahahha, well put !!! A shame, as the / our government kind of > destroyed > >that service....AND imported ore started showing up in the other direction > >from Eastern Seaboard ports....but, no more Mount Carmel Ore Trains > >!!!....bill*** > > > Question. I was always under the impression that the ore arriving at the > east coast was mostly foreign ore (Venezuelan, etc) and the ex-lake ore that > was going to the P&E docks at Erie and therefore the reason for the Mt. > Carmel trains was diverted to the better C&P docks at Whiskey Island thus > consolidating the PRR's lake ore operations. Are you saying that the lake > ore boats (at that time probably mostly carrying taconite pellets) bypassed > all of the railroad ore docks on Lake Erie (B&O, EL, PRR, NYC, B&LE, etc) > and went down the St. Lawrence Seaway out to the ocean and down the coast to > unload at east coast ports? I find this very interesting. Was their back > haul still coal? Al >> > **** > ***I had questioned the Lake Ore Boats travelling thru the St. Lawrence, as > Lake Boats were virtually "powered barges" and I would not consider them > seaworthy at all.They had enough problems ( Edmund Fitzgerald, etc. ) on the > lakes without challenging Ocean currents. > My history on the ore traffic as follows: > Beginning in 1954, foreign ore started showing up, as North American Hematite > was dwindling, and taconite recovery costs were climbing. > > >From high school chemistry, Magnetite =~ 60%, Hematite =~ 40 %, and taconite > =~20%, approx. Tac had to be sintered, broken up, crushed and melted to > retrieve the iron ore, an additional and expensive process. Memory of a > sintering plant at Saxonburg...??? > > The Sparrows Point plant also did use magnetite imported from Norway. > > Bethlehem started mining operations on a smaller scale in Venezuela, Elpao was > one of their mines ( forget others...). Their ore went mostly to Sparrows > Point, Bethlehem and Steelton plants, Eastern easy access. > > Their Lackawanna, Burns Harbor and Johnstown plants were still fed Lake Ore. > > Circa 1958, the B&LE was receiving reverse flow ore from the PRR at Butler, a > miserable and hard climb for both RR';s. Break-in-twos, etc. were common > operating troubles. > > That was when you saw pix of Westbound Ore along the PRR, as the flow pattern > was reversed from earlier times. We well remembered seeing westward ore loads > and eastward coal loads going by our Benny "Cliffs" camp=out location. > > That Shamokin-Mount Carmel route was also a nut-buster, with miserable curves > and grades, especially on the Lehigh Valley Portion. The Ore Train Movie by C. > Weaver "Jokes" about the LV New F units only taking "half of the train", but > if he had studied the LV track chart a bit, there was no way the Great PRR I1s > could handle that tonnage on the LV either. Another snake-path RR Branch, as > the map well shows. > > > > Mostly from a fading memory, butt......Hope this helps explain more, > Bill********* > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 09:50:53 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose 4/3/1 Post WWII 40 ft box cars X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 4295538da340ee5277d290f4c6d3ff68 The X46 is a 4-3-1 end, straight sidesill, 8'door, 10 panel riveted side with a diagonal overhanging roof. The X46 had Youngstown doors. The X46A superior 6 panel doors and a modified underframe. X46 built 1953 X46A built 1955 The X43 is a 4-3-1 end tab sides at bolster ends and partial sidesill, 7' or 8' door depending on subclass, 10 panel riveted or welded side depending on subclass, diagonal panel non-overhanging roof The X48 is a PS-1 The X54 is a 4-3-1 end, 12 panel riveted, plug door full length channel sidesill. The X54 was built in 1959 and the X54A in 1960. The X54A were equipped with PS Compartmentizer loading devices and the X54 with Evan's Quick Loader. The loading devices are the only differences in the subclasses. Except for rebuilds of X29, X37, X38 cars these consitute the post WWII PRR 40' box cars. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 09:55:18 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] LINES WEST (And in Other Directions) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: c49c2212f34c83bafcdcdb92064bc294 In a message dated 1/22/99 7:37:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, DDembinski@Centuryinter.net writes: > Regarding the location of the PRRT&HS annual meeting, the Autumn 1998 issue > of THE > KEYSTONE has an article giving an overview of the annual meeting held in May > of 1998 in > Lancaster, PA. After discussion of the arrangements being made for the > upcoming Altoona > convention, the topic of finding a "relatively permanent" location for > future meetings was > discussed. It was determined that the "centrally-located" Radisson Hotel > located in Camp > Hill, PA would best fit the needs of the society. "The majority of the > business meeting > attendees were in concurrence" concluded the paragraph on this subject. > Using my DELORME > Streetfinder software, Camp Hill appears to be a suburb of Harrisburg, PA. > Looks like 1999 > is THE YEAR if any of the Lines West'ers want to travel any relatively > reduced distance to > enjoy the convention. > I believe that the "final" decision was to hold every other year's convention in Camp Hill. And yes Camp Hill is a western suburb of Harrisburg. It would also seem that this is subject to change by the membership. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 11:36:50 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] LINES WEST (And in Other Directions) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 1fd6ae95b4377e1a9f472751afae8ccb Tom & folks, I'd love to see a convention in Columbus, as my wife's from Sandusky and would love an extra opportunity to visit home once in a while. And if we could get the convention date changed from May 1st (or thereabouts) to a better summer date (which would make it easier for those of us with kids in school), this would help too. We know the dates can be changed, as witness the Altoona convention this year. Every time I've ever suggested thie possibilty of a date change to "anyone" at the PRRT&HS I've either been looked at like a green-hued Martian or , more often, ignored. Rather as if I hadn't said anything. The B&O folks have held conventions in Chicago, Toledo and Akron/Cleveland within the last 6-8 years, as well as those further east, so it can be done. But obviously the main men don't want to do it judging from past experince and the "final" decision to always meet within an hour's drive of Lancaster. Self- fulfilling is a good term to use for their foresight, and I understand what conventions have been held in the hinterlands , such as Pittsburgh, are going to pretty much be a thing of the past. Oh well, I haven't sent in my 1999 dues yet. I'll have to debate that one. Barry Peltier St. Paul, MN ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 11:08:43 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] LINES WEST (And in Other Directions) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 6896c762d657cb227d4be44593170fbe Barry and all, That Columbus is only 50 miles from my home is only one reason that I suggest it as a location for a PRRT&HS convention. As I said ion my earlier post, there are a lot of lonewolf SPFs out here who've been put off by the Lines East bias of PRRT&HS. I, for one, have a medical condition that makes solo driving of distances as far as Pittsburgh extremely difficult, if not dangerous, and an economic condition which makes air travel out of the question. It is highly unlikely that any time in the near future that I will be able to make my case in person. Ohio''s PRR track mileage is second only to Pennsylvania. All westbound PRR traffic had to got through Pittsburgh. All Panhandle traffic had to go through Columbus. It was a major center of PRR operations, as the N&W was a major albeit independent subsidiary. That is why a convention should be held in Columbus, and to the end the self-fulfilling prophecy that only those interested in Lines East attend the conventions. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Steam Power, Harrisburg, 1950s Date: Sat, 23 Jan 99 10:15:32 -0500 From: Jerry X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 8799b02ecb47bd0933061ced5a89f94b Unless you've been under a rock, most of you know that I am modeling Harrisburg in 1954. I know that several others on the list are also modeling Harrisburg or its vicinity. I just picked up (off eBay) a copy of Don Wood's "I Remember Pennsy". It has a good photo of the 750 ton coal tower at Harrisburg, and confirms that the Tichey 400 ton model that I plan to use will be a good choice. It also details what steam power ran in the area (p.79) in the 1950s. I will likely be using more steam in passenger service than was actually present (an E6, several K4s, two T1s, a K5, etc.), but my fleet will be predominantly diesel as was the prototype (apparently) by that year. The following are some quotes: "K4's and T1's powered their last trains in 1952, with only a standby 4-6-2 available in a pinch at the beginning of 1953. So, while there was much activity with EMD E7's and E8's, and to a much lesser extent Alco PA's and Baldwin Sharknose power, the transient photographer could not tarry for long, since heaven lay almost directly across the Susquehanna." Of Enola: "GG1's and P5's moved most of the tonnage to the east and south while steam and diesel shared the duties to the north and west." "Big barelled 2-10-0's, some with tanks longer than the engine, shoved long lines of cars over the east and westbound hump leads, while spunky H9 2-8-0's scurried about making up trains and diggin out incorrectly classified cars. Over on the westbound ready tracks were clusters of the beloved, keystone festooned, Belpaire-boilered 4-8-2 M1's awaiting the call to duty, along with an occasional I1 2-10-0 or L1 Mike. In 1955, when 50% of the trains dispatched from Enola to the Middle and Susquehanna Divisions were steam powered, the balance of the assignments were shared by EMD F3's abd 7's, FP7's, and early GP7's while Alco FA's and Baldwin Sharks picked up the slack. GP and SD9's began arriving in 1956 and along with Alco RSD15's started cutting into both steam and cab unit operations. Throw in the leasing in 1956 of a dozen or so Reading T1' 4-8-4's and you had a melting pot of power unrivaled anywhere...why, they even let L1 2-8-2's out over the Rockville Bridge in Enola-Harrisburg transfer service!" Hope this helps you'all! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Future PRRT&HS Conventions Date: Sat, 23 Jan 99 09:57:26 -0500 From: Jerry X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: e7f802a3ff3604d39cbf5ee1ccab31b5 On 1/22/99 10:02 PM, Mark Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote: >> some point the settlements of Wormleysburg, Bridgeport (now Lemoyne), New >> Market (now New Cumberland) and Camp Hill took place. Over the past > >Jerry, >you were doing so well! >Camp Hill used to be White Hill. First I've heard that reference. > >> century, they have grown so much together that it is impossible for the >> visitor to know when they exit one town and enter the next! > >Different color cop car watching for speeders? :-) Actually, no, they went to a regional force a few years ago. > >> The only difference between Camp Hill and Harrisburg is the one mile wide >> river between them and the seven bridges (two railroad) that cross there. >> The entire area is considered "greater Harrisburg". > >2.5 bridges? 3.5 bridges if you throw in Rockville? I did not count Rockville (rr), I-81, or I-76; only those that are right down in the city. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 13:30:37 -0500 From: "Marvin E. Crim" Subject: Re: [PRR] LINES WEST (And in Other Directions) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5be82d1b2534e97873072abc1b81ff55 Thanx Tom, From West of Ohio...thanx so very much. And any "defense" of the society that draws on "probably" and "assumptions" recalls a first rule of thumb: Be skeptical of all data. LINESWEST@aol.com wrote: > > Barry and all, > > That Columbus is only 50 miles from my home is only one reason that I suggest > it as a location for a PRRT&HS convention. As I said ion my earlier post, > there are a lot of lonewolf SPFs out here who've been put off by the Lines > East bias of PRRT&HS. I, for one, have a medical condition that makes solo > driving of distances as far as Pittsburgh extremely difficult, if not > dangerous, and an economic condition which makes air travel out of the > question. It is highly unlikely that any time in the near future that I will > be able to make my case in person. > Ohio''s PRR track mileage is second only to Pennsylvania. All westbound PRR > traffic had to got through Pittsburgh. All Panhandle traffic had to go through > Columbus. It was a major center of PRR operations, as the N&W was a major > albeit independent subsidiary. That is why a convention should be held in > Columbus, and to the end the self-fulfilling prophecy that only those > interested in Lines East attend the conventions. > > Tom V. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". -- "I live with 'FEAR' every day, but sometimes she lets me watch Star Trek." Until Later, Marvin 'n Ellen 'n Misty too mcrim1361@worldnet.att.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 13:54:55 -0500 From: "David J. Wartell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Timonium Next Weekend X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 7dc942031c4706dbf1b87ebe7e4d9809 I will be there on Saturday. I am not sure what time I will be going down, probably near the opening. Jerry, we should have PRR-Talk buttons to wear so that we can identify fellow PRR-Talkers at meets like this. I know you, :-) but I am not sure if I would recognize too many others. Hey, there is another product for the Merchandise Service to carry! At 3:38 PM -0500 1/22/99, Jerry wrote: >Anyone going to the Timonium (Md.) show next weekend (Jan. 30-31)? > >I plan to go on Saturday...will probably be there when it opens. Perhaps >we can arrange a meet? > >------------------------------------------------------------------ >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS > Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. >Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! >WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! > The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on >special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Dave Wartell djwartel@ix.netcom.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: Re: [PRR] USRA Roundhouses Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 15:35:08 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 2119a06885dfc5c98dd06ea7d1b75010 -----Original Message----- From: Prr1187@aol.com To: RickTipton@aol.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; MEMRA@LISTSERV.DARTMOUTH.EDU Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 10:59 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] USRA Roundhouses We know the USRA had actual design standards for equipment. However, prior to this thread of discussion I had never heard of standard USRA structures on the PRR, but of course that doesn't mean they didn't have them. I am wondering if the reference to USRA roundhouses just indicates that it was constructed during the USRA period of control, 1917-1920? Each railroad wanting to make improvements during that period had to justify the improvement and get approval from the government before implementing. I have examples of the paper work submitted for improvements in New Castle, PA called "Application for Priority Assistance" answering 12 questions on a "Form PD-200" (I don't have the form just the answers). The particular project in New Castle is to improve a connection to No. 1 yard track which included constructing 150' of track, one No. 10 turnout and a dwarf signal within the limits of Lawrence Jct interlocking (later Castle). Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: [PRR] Fw: [D] Re: Baldwin Centipede Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 15:22:33 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 77eb293d293d7bf370a70a047109da22 Check it out guys. May turn out to be a good buy for someone. Antennas are easy to add. Jerry -----Original Message----- From: Walt Gay To: Diesel Modelers Mailing List Date: Saturday, January 23, 1999 11:21 AM Subject: [D] Re: Baldwin Centipede >I've got a Hallmark SAL version(4501-4513) that I painted years ago but >never re- assembled, that I may be pursuaded to part with. > > >Walt >-----Original Message----- >From: DBohannon2@aol.com >To: Diesel Modelers Mailing List >Date: Saturday, January 23, 1999 1:24 AM >Subject: [D] Baldwin Centipede > > >>To all, >> A while back, there was some mention of Baldwin centipedes. I was >thinking >>that someone was looking for one. If you are, Tinker Town, St. Louis has >one >>in their consignment case. It's a Hallmark, unpainted and appears to be in >>good condition (through the glass). I didn't ask price, figured if someone >is >>interested they could call and get the info. 314-991-4311 >> While I was there, I picked up a copy of UP Modeler Vol. 4. Steve Orth's >>article on UP F-units is worth the price of the book! >> Dan B. >> >> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 16:51:26 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: [D] Re: Baldwin Centipede X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: c68d703cd6b42c96bed5d516992e5e56 On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, jbreon wrote: > Check it out guys. May turn out to be a good buy for someone. Antennas are > easy to add. Incidentally, this is the Overland one, not the Hallmark one as he initially thought (Walt's). And I bought the one at the shop in St. Louis already, so I'll save anyone a call:-) -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] P&E Traffic...Shamokin Steam, Venezuela takes over, Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 16:48:58 -0500 (EST) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 1448139c253d30648a53e5189d5d609e Bill Strassner writes: > ***I had questioned the Lake Ore Boats travelling thru the St. Lawrence, as > Lake Boats were virtually "powered barges" and I would not consider them > seaworthy at all.They had enough problems ( Edmund Fitzgerald, etc. ) on the > lakes without challenging Ocean currents. The Great Lakes pose challenges that are quite unique, actually, and an *assumption* that lakes boats are not seaworthy is a bit too quick and long of a leap. To be *very* brief about it, as I am not expert, but have read some on the topic, the lakes are large enough to have tides, and their quantity of water and size make them particularly prone to closely spaced but relatively tall waves, a deadly combination; ocean waves tend, as I understand it, to be considerably farther apart. > I am gonna check with ( famous author / NKP, etc ) Eric Hirsimaki about Lake > Boats traveling farther, let alone out to Sea. He would know definitively, as > he had time with the Lake ( Boat ) Carriers Association. Just saw this at the end of the message. I will of course defer to Hirsimaki. At any rate, a number of good books are available on the topic. One can start with the eminently readable _The Late Great Lakes_, which is a bit polemical, but provides a most interesting mix of geology, history (human), economics, ecology, and sundry other stuff. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Future PRRT&HS Conventions Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 16:55:13 -0500 (EST) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 058e340f56d46099df5773558c5312de > >> some point the settlements of Wormleysburg, Bridgeport (now Lemoyne), New > >> Market (now New Cumberland) and Camp Hill took place. Over the past > >Jerry, > >you were doing so well! > >Camp Hill used to be White Hill. > > First I've heard that reference. Check out Westhaffer's book on the Cumberland Valley RR. Don't remember when the name changed. > I did not count Rockville (rr), I-81, or I-76; only those that are right > down in the city. I thought that might be the case. 2.5, regardless, the ".5" being the piers left by the South Penn ... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] FP-7's From: Fred G Rea Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 17:26:57 EST X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 55ecad7fd0c10bcbbbb3c1e892a2b0a6 Can any of you fill me in on the when, where and what for, of FP-7's on the PRR and or (pardon me) the PC? I am the PRR fan, my son is a PC fan, and any late PRR use would reflect on PC use. Thanks Fred Rea ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] Another question: semaphores Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 17:12:34 -0500 (EST) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 7a0bb0da85a94e266db40dd74da97944 Does anyone on this list know semaphore diagramming well enough to write up a set of rules as to how the diagrams are done? By "diagrams", I mean the drawings, depicting the signal, used to indicate the types of aspects the semaphores can display, as used, e.g., on interlocking diagrams and track charts. The simple stuff is easy to figure out, e.g., that blade shape is shown diagrammatically. Simple aspects (single horizontal or vertical line, etc.) are also reasonably obvious. But what about stuff like: Vertical solid rectangle as part of the blade? Dot to left of mast, even with top of blade? If anyone wants specific maps to review to answer, you can start with the map for Bay Junction, see http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/bay_jct.gif -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RLA0220@webtv.net (RICHARD ADER) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 10:55:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] PRR ore-Beth X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: efb0a012423d437135a2d0d0954240fb Sure do remember. Used to work the ore jobs from GW to P'burg. The Valley guys would come in at night throught the upper yard and take the ore trains from Kent to Bethlehem. Rich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] More on the Bachman K-4 From: Fred G Rea Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 17:26:57 EST X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 9dc6dfa86aff5ea8423db7ffcfbe0d79 After hearing all the red roof discussions I've have decided mine will go when I darken the smoke and fire boxes. Wonderful locomotive, especially at the price. A warning. Look at the backs of the drivers. There are pick up wipers on the backs of all the drivers. An excellent idea but be careful. One surprise! After trying some strings of varnish on my steepest main line hill I got a surprise. It was not pulling as well as I thought. So a test. My old and new Bachman K-4's coupled back to back in adjacent blocks fora tug of war! The old one wins easily! The old one spins but drags the stalled new one, dead, backwards. The other way around the new one won't budge the old one. So, I'll need to double head. No problem. I think we should praise Bachman for making such a nicely detailed and excellent running locomotive for the price. It is a bit frustrating for some of us that things like the tender aren't more protypical. The darkened rods are great and those of us who think red roof and silver smoke boxes are a bit much, can easily repaint them. I am sure the bright colors sell to a significant market who see that as a beautiful engine! I hope it is successful enough to encourage them to do more vintage steam, even if not PRR. Fred Rea ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Timonium Next Weekend Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 17:12:17 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 7e55e9676c496b786acea6ed736eed30 To all, I'll be easy to find.......Look for the " Northern Central RR" cap in green (i know..i didn't pick the color!) The ball caps are the same ones the that sell for 10-12 dollars on the NCR Trail in Maryland........WE WILL BE SELLING THEM FOR $8.00, and ALL monies go to the New Freedom Station Restoration.. At least stop by and say Hi! Bill ---------- > From: David J. Wartell > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] Timonium Next Weekend > Date: Saturday, January 23, 1999 1:54 PM > > I will be there on Saturday. I am not sure what time I will be going down, > probably near the opening. > > Jerry, we should have PRR-Talk buttons to wear so that we can identify > fellow PRR-Talkers at meets like this. I know you, :-) but I am not sure if > I would recognize too many others. Hey, there is another product for the > Merchandise Service to carry! > > At 3:38 PM -0500 1/22/99, Jerry wrote: > >Anyone going to the Timonium (Md.) show next weekend (Jan. 30-31)? > > > >I plan to go on Saturday...will probably be there when it opens. Perhaps > >we can arrange a meet? > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS > > Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. > >Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com > > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > >WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! > > The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > >special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > Dave Wartell > djwartel@ix.netcom.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 18:42:06 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] LINES WEST (And in Other Directions) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 1c66c01ef37ee392c9401c9b6fbec2c4 A suggestion: If you want to have a convention in the "west", get prices and a proposed program (i.e., former PRR facilities to visit, current RR facilities to visit etc. and present it at the convention. One of the reasons for the proposal to "centralize" the meeting site is the lack of chapters willing to host the convention. The Northern Central Chapter ends up hosting the meeting every other year. Even the Philly Chapter has hosted few meetings. The Middle Division Chapter hosted one in the past few years as has Pittsburgh. The BOD basically begged Pittsburgh to host the convention and the chapter resisted for a number of years. Finally when a few chapter members committed to doing the bulk of the work, the invitation to come to Pittsburgh was made. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Timonium Next Weekend Date: Sat, 23 Jan 99 19:10:40 -0500 From: Jerry X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: b5c9056bfe3d8d6ca04fd08939b9f710 On 1/23/99 1:54 PM, David J. Wartell (djwartel@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >I will be there on Saturday. I am not sure what time I will be going down, >probably near the opening. Probably will see you then. Expect to be there from 9:30 - 3 or so. > >Jerry, we should have PRR-Talk buttons to wear so that we can identify >fellow PRR-Talkers at meets like this. I know you, :-) but I am not sure if >I would recognize too many others. Hey, there is another product for the >Merchandise Service to carry! Maybe when I have some operating capital. I'm installing eCommerce on my web site and it is a somewhat costly proposition. "Merchandise Service" just started accepting credit cards and will soon offer an online Shopping Cart system. Buttons are a good idea, but I'd have to bankroll the thing, not knowing how good sales would be. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Timonium Next Weekend ( ON THE NCR ! ) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 21:02:40 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 162d08ea70da519f6e962c846f29c900 Jerry, you can get a button maker cheap out of the back of some magazines, and you can print what you want on it on your printer....not that costly, and write it off to advertising ! Just a thought.....Then you can make NCR buttons !!! Bill ---------- > From: Jerry > To: David J. Wartell ; PRR-Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] Timonium Next Weekend > Date: Saturday, January 23, 1999 7:10 PM > > On 1/23/99 1:54 PM, David J. Wartell (djwartel@ix.netcom.com) wrote: > > >I will be there on Saturday. I am not sure what time I will be going down, > >probably near the opening. > > Probably will see you then. Expect to be there from 9:30 - 3 or so. > > > >Jerry, we should have PRR-Talk buttons to wear so that we can identify > >fellow PRR-Talkers at meets like this. I know you, :-) but I am not sure if > >I would recognize too many others. Hey, there is another product for the > >Merchandise Service to carry! > > Maybe when I have some operating capital. I'm installing eCommerce on my > web site and it is a somewhat costly proposition. "Merchandise Service" > just started accepting credit cards and will soon offer an online > Shopping Cart system. Buttons are a good idea, but I'd have to bankroll > the thing, not knowing how good sales would be. > > ----------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com > "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com > ----------------------------------------------- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 20:19:54 EST Subject: [PRR] Trains Classics & T-1's and Lines West X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 97b8170a7000528e4e34e4842277660a Folks, I just picked up a copy of Kalmbach's new annual mag today, and it has a nifty little article about working as a passenger fireman on the Fort Wayne- Crestline haul. It's short but good, and the Gil Reid painting of a T1 and K4 more than cover the price of the mag. (And a nice article about B&O 4-8-2's doesn't hurt a thing either.) regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 20:07:30 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] LINES WEST (And in Other Directions) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: e6b2c9b60e7c499186b0eb018e25208e Rich, Some have called the Lines West Fans Fest a convention but until one is under my belt and there's more people than just me working on it, I will discourage it. I do hope, however, it is the beginning of something. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 00:17:25 EST Subject: [PRR] Pic for the Weekend....Jaws !!!!! X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: d0154b89ccffcb168a8f000a6cbba88f ****This weekend's PRR Pic is the First Two PRR Passenger Sharknoses, # 5770 & 5771, Brandy New at Baldwin, actually on Display, with walkways and ramps to look thru the 5771 unit !!! View it at: http://members.aol.com/PRRSignals/SHARKPDH.jpg The #5770 A and 5770 B ( B unit ) is coupled to 5771, the first "Power Set" as they began selling multiple unit diesels as 'one' locomotive. The Photos are from the wonderful H. L. Broadbelt Baldwin collection. These first two, like their first two EMD E8 cousins # 5700+01, had the only Dual Headlights of their class, presumably altered for later orders by the PRR. >From distant memory, the 5770 was involved in a Korean War Troop Train Wreck near Coshocton, OH circa 1950-51 ( cannot locate Ax report...) and that was the one rebuilt as a single headlight unit. I cannot find my Bud Rothaar pic of it, but it shows up in picture books, think it was a Bay Head Loco Line-Up type of photo, circa 1959, with both the 5770 and 5771 in it, with the 5771 as the only surviving dual headlight Sharknose unit, confirming the above note. Of course, passenger service never put the load on these neat sounding Baldwins that the CNJ 'ore train' service did, upon their blue and tangerine freight 'Baby Face' units !!! HaveAGoodWeekend, Bill****** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 23:04:52 -0500 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: [PRR] Former PRR employee info? X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 7d7f666c18678b6c28e8d8f44774cf0b I received the following e-mail -- hopefully someone can help out. Thanks. ------------------------------------ Dear Jerry, I was wondering if you know if personnel records are available for past employees of the PRR. My Uncle James Behney worked for the PRR until his death in the early 60's as a Conductor in the Pittsburgh area. I have all his pins, etc., but would like to know dates of service, etc., for him. All family members are now deceased and would like to have the history to go along with the memorabilia for future generation's of Tecklenburg's. Thanks for any help in this matter. Dean W. Tecklenburg Dean_tecklenburg@prodigy.net -- Jerry Shickler e-mail: geshick@velocity.net Visit the PRR P&E/E&P web-site at http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 01:17:59 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] FP-7's..on the P-RSL, and PRR usage... X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 04940a844d75630ae7c11dbffa58c6d4 In a message dated 99-01-23 18:22:12 EST, you write: << Can any of you fill me in on the when, where and what for, of FP-7's on the PRR and or (pardon me) the PC? I am the PRR fan, my son is a PC fan, and any late PRR use would reflect on PC use. >> ***Fred, I just posted that a few weeks ago with Good Loco Numbers, already deleted it here....anyone save that ??? Thanks, Bill*** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 01:45:54 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] P&E Traffic...Shamokin Steam, Venezuela takes over, X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 287ae83f8d8beeae453d5126fdb9b124 In a message dated 99-01-23 16:49:02 EST, you write: << Just saw this at the end of the message. I will of course defer to Hirsimaki. >> ***Welll, that is very sporting of you !!! Another of the "470" group came forward with a note that the ore boats length exceed the locks capacity, therefore a 'natural' elimination right there. Bill*** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 01:14:48 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Another question: semaphores X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 6199ca5e2c5892bda6d16923b57c6d74 In a message dated 99-01-23 17:34:11 EST, you write: << Does anyone on this list know semaphore diagramming well enough to write up a set of rules as to how the diagrams are done? By "diagrams", I mean the drawings, depicting the signal, used to indicate the types of aspects the semaphores can display, as used, e.g., on interlocking diagrams and track charts. >> ***Yes, that will be in my Third Installment on PRRSignals....probably posted on our "Blades" Website before then.....Bill**** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 01:09:54 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore-Beth X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 690ef6dce7a93eb125180548898bf514 In a message dated 99-01-23 16:46:02 EST, you write: << To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Sure do remember. Used to work the ore jobs from GW to P'burg. The Valley guys would come in at night throught the upper yard and take the ore trains from Kent to Bethlehem. Rich >> *********Thx, pal.... we got this narrowed down to years.....196? to 1972, CNJ P'burg Drill and the GRAB, or the CNJ Birdie aka Bethlehem Road Drill would handle the ore to CNJ / JU / Betlehem or XN / Allentown then RDG / Saucon Yard / PB&NE. After CNJ dumped CRP Div...4/1/72...?....THEN only thing left was LV crews to handle to Their Florence yard for further movement... Thanks to you and an old Rdg Trainmaster and LV STO.....!!!!...Bill*** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:14:21 EST Subject: [PRR] Pic for the Weekend....Jaws !!!!! X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: e95dbd9c76fe403d3a93dff5312c7235 In a message dated 1/23/99 11:35:00 PM Central Standard Time, PRRSignals@aol.com writes: << From distant memory, the 5770 was involved in a Korean War Troop Train Wreck near Coshocton, OH circa 1950-51 ( cannot locate Ax report...) and that was the one rebuilt as a single headlight unit. >> Just for the record, 5774 led the 5776 and the Spirit of St. Louis into the rear of a troop train on September 11, 1950 at West Lafayette, Ohio (7.5 miles from Coshocton). 5774 was rebuilt after the wreck but had one headlight before and after the wreck, as far as I know. 5770 lost its extra headlight in a rebuild after another wreck. BTW, I believe the extra headlight on the E8s was a Mars light. Seems to me the extra light on the BP20s was a fog light (or just an extra light). Can anyone confirm ? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:26:49 +0000 From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] K4 5038 Photo of the Week X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: ab3245fc3e1a905e49d015471aaae072 Been looking at a nice photo of K4 5038, the one with the huge smoke deflectors, on the PRRTHS web site (photo of the week). http://www.prrths.com/PRR_PhotoWeek.html I have a query about this particular engine that's been in the back of my mind for some time. I've seen a number of photos of this loco including ones with the skyline casing extended further along the boiler top but ALL photos have been of the Right Hand Side. Am I right in thinking that the large lubricator would have been fitted on the LHS around the same time 5038 was sporting these defectors? If so, how was this accommodated in the shape of these deflectors? Has anyone in the group ever seen a photo showing the LHS of this loco? I need to add I don't have plans to model 5038, having got one K4 with deflectors already (pic on website), but it's just one of those niggling questions that keep cropping up regularly. Regards, -- John H. Wright Visit the Newcastle & District Model Railway Society's web site at: http://www.jhwright.demon.co.uk/index.htm Descriptions and views of our layouts in: Z, N, HO (USA), HO (Continental), OO, P4, and O Gauge Plus members' layouts, exhibitions, fun stuff, building techniques, model railway & railroad links, stories, news and events. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 10:22:55 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Timonium show X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: ccfaef679e927ed88fc45b14daadb752 Hi you all.... Um....this is a strange request..but here goes.... Can anyone going to the Timonium show keep a eye out for some parts for me....I can re-imburse you for the parts and shipping. I just can't be there for the show. now if shipping is a problem.....I have two brothers that live in Timonium and they could take it for you and ship it to me. The reason i ask this is that i'm looking for some parts for my engines.... I need a valve gear kit that was made for the English A-5 (not Bowser) by Central Valley i think. If you find one for a Dock sider i can use that...even if it does'nt work on the A-5. I need other stuff...but that is one of the things i'm after the most. Thanks for any help. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DZJN21A@prodigy.com (MR CHARLES J CHANDLER II) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:59:23, -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRRH&TS / Phila. Chp. Meeting X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 860642ea58fe6029c45f41b35fad368a Gentleman, I was able to attend the Phila. Chp. of the PRRH&TS yesterday and thought I would share some things. First, they have a modelers meeting before which is 1st rate, yesterday's dealt with modeling X-29 boxcars. Joe Gotaskie gave an excellent presentation on upgrading Red Caboose and Train Miniature/Walthers kits. He explained how these two models represented different types of side construction of the prototypes. Didn't know that. Second, Jim Kelly gave a nice slide presentation on the Cape May branch of the PRR/Seashore line. By the way, this branch is again in operation with plans to connect eventually at Winslow Jnct. The owner was there and said that all of the equipment was original PRR/Seashore equipment. He is trying to keep the line as authentic as possible. Swing bridge is back in operation and two stations have been restored. He even has several P70's waiting restoration and a restored GP9 in PRR paint! This could be a great vacation plan next summer! Now to convince the family we should take the train to the seashore! Til later, Charlie C. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:23:25 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains Classics & T-1's and Lines West X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: add5d63074fab56c29f6e1982b41cc65 To Barry & all, At the Buckeye Railroadiana Show at the Ohio State Fairgrounds in Columbus in December, I met Gary Koss, former Conrail track supervisor for what was once the PRR Columbus Division who began his railroad career at 18 working for the Pennsylvania Railroad in Xenia back in 1967. Gary answered my question about the lack of pictures of T1 4-4-4-4s in Cincinnati. The problem, as Rick Tipton has suspected, was the length of the turntable at the Pendleton enginehouse facility on the old Little Miami RR was not long enough to handle both the huge engine and its tender, all 130+ feet of it. The T! could be turned there but it required unhitching the tender and turning both engine and tender separately. "It wasn't that they couldn't turn the T1. It's just that they didn't like doing it very often," Gary said. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 16:16:59 EST Subject: [PRR] THE BIG RED SUBWAY - long X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 0893e16127baaab928f0b13cee8242ca In a message dated 1/22/99 11:10:59 AM EST, bobr@tridelta.com writes: << Great question, and one I've wondered about for a long time. Something that comes to mind is an old "Professional Iconoclast" column in Trains magazine, wherein John Kneiling >> I think I remember the article "THE BIG RED SUBWAY" Kneiling talked about the WW2 years and how Pennsy trains would arrive and depart and the mass of people on the platform would remain unchanged - but on the PRR there was always another section following. It might have been old parlor cars, WW 1 day coaches or box cars with seats but PRR rarely left anyone behind. NYC, on the other hand ran their scheduled trains and told people "come back tomorrow" My Dad told the story of the story of coming home on leave on the PRR during the winter of 1943 - sick and tired after 2-3 days worth of travel and realizing that the train he was on wasn't scheduled to stop in his destination of Alliance Ohio. He was faced with the prospect of getting off in Canton and making his own way the last 20 miles. He spoke with the Conductor who shook his head - but came back after the next stop and said "I can't STOP this train for anybody - but the Engineman and I have a feeling that we'll have a slow block in Alliance and we'll slow down to a walk" He noted the 82nd Airborne patch on Dad's uniform and said "any man who can jump out of an airplane ought to be able to get off a slow moving train without getting hurt!" "Meet me in the vestibule, I'll pop the trap we'll kick off your bag - and you'd better follow it - quickly" which he did and always was partial to the PRR because of it. In the January of 1966, I was headed back to Mount Union College in Alliance from the West, following Christmas break. One of those storms hit that closed all the airports from Chicago to New York. The Chicago Station was jammed and I was not confident of making my train even though I had a through ticket. I got my car assignment and after a walk which seemed like it was almost to Ohio, boarded an old MoPac sleeper which smelled like it had been stored for a long time. All of us on the car were college students. My seatmates started to "beef" about the lack of overhead luggage racks and the awkward kneebumping seating arrangements. I pointed out the "sleeper" features of the car and soon after the train was moving, borrowed a tool from a girl who was a skier and dropped the upper berth. The curtains and linens were long gone - but the mattresses were still there. The entire car was "converted" in short order and we all managed to sleep semi comfortably through the night two and three to a bunk. The Pennsy Conductor who took our tickets smiled and joked about our "deluxe" accommodations. I've long since lost the name of the girl who shared my bunk - and got off in Ada, home of Ohio Northern University, but it was certainly a night to remember. Once again, as in WW2, the PRR didn't leave anyone behind. Dick Ross Cleveland, Ohio ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DZJN21A@prodigy.com (MR CHARLES J CHANDLER II) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 18:32:09, -0500 Subject: [PRR] Trainstuff LLC MP-54 & BP-20 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 1fa70e7bbe14db6f82bc3f7a94e13292 Earlier this month I inquired about Trainstuff LLC products- specificly their MP-54s. Well yesterday I saw an example of both their MP-54 & BP-20. I was not impressed. I was told the MP-54 is sold only in a powered built-up form. If the example I saw was typical of their workmanship they have a tough sell on their hands. The detail was crude and the gluing together of the 5 panels was poor. Wrong style pantograph also. Their BP-20 was just as bad- a stretched out Tyco or Model Power freight unit with warped sides. This unit had a Hobbytown drive installed which slid around inside. There was a Miracle Casting example next to it and the difference was amazing! I strongly recommend seeing Trainstuff LLC's products in person before deciding to buy them. Almost forgot, I found a source again for HO plastic PRR safety railing stanchions if anybody is interested. Charlie C. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainstuff LLC MP-54 & BP-20 Date: Sun, 24 Jan 99 19:24:25 -0500 From: Jerry X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 678990ad7ce94cce72dee2d4c1d33867 On 1/24/99 6:33 PM, MR CHARLES J CHANDLER II (DZJN21A@prodigy.com) wrote: >Their BP-20 was just as bad- a >stretched out Tyco or Model Power freight unit with warped sides. >This unit had a Hobbytown drive installed which slid around inside. >There was a Miracle Casting example next to it and the difference was >amazing! For the most part I had promised not to plug "Merchandise Service" product announcements on "PRR-Talk", since I do offer a private announcement list for such things. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com I thought, however, that it was worth mentioning in this venue that Miracle Castings is catching up on production. I recently went from a backorder of 27 units to only 12. Things are looking up and I have received nothing but positive comments from my customers. If you were waiting on the Trainstuff product and are disappointed, please keep me in mind for the Miracle Castings product...they don't sell direct and I am one of only three (maybe four) dealers in the US and I'd appreciate the business! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:06:26 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West - PRR & NYC From: Patrick M Egan X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 06917e30f05efb220afed29550602b70 Interesting about the railfan aspect - if the NYC ever ran a fan trip out of LaSalle Street - or Central Station, for that matter - it thoroughly escaped my notice. The closest that I have heard is at least one trip on the Harbor (NMRA convention, 1954) which did use LaSalle Street as the terminal. The Pennsy, on the other hand, ran a bunch of trips out of Chicago in the 1930s to as far east as Altoona. They were before my time, but I heard that the prices were incredibly low, and the company was most accomodating. Maybe the problem did originate with the Vanderbilts. William Vanderbilt gave the world the classic "The public be damned!" I doubt this was a casual utterance. Pat Egan (no web access) On Fri, 22 Jan 1999 10:23:40 -0500 (EST) bobr@tridelta.com (Bob Rothrock) writes: >At 06:04 PM 1/21/99 EST, VVA249@aol.com wrote: > >> Oddly, the NYC Society is headquartered here in Cleveland and >though they wax >>eloquent about Hudsons on the Hudson their group seems to have a >"Lines" focus >>- on the Railroad west of Buffalo....... For one reason or another >the NYC >>never captured the "hearts and minds" of New York the way PRR did in >Pa. Was >>it the Vanderbilts? >>Dick Ross >> > > Great question, and one I've wondered about for a long time. >Something >that comes to mind is an old "Professional Iconoclast" column in >Trains >magazine, wherein John Kneiling was comparing the differences in >attitudes >toward railfan groups in the New York/Philly/Jersey area during the >40's and >50's. Kneiling was reknown for avoiding anything bordering on >nostalgia >(i.e., this was in the 70's, and he was being paid to comment on the >railroad business) but his recollections were clearly that the Pennsy >always >gave the added effort (extra coaches, extra photo stops, etc.) to >accomodate >the enthusiasts, while the NYC generally provided equipment that was >one >jump away from the R.I.P. track, staffed with employees oozing >contempt, or >at best, indifference toward camera-toting types of that day. > > Given enough of these occurrences (if accurate), it's not hard to >imagine >people aiming their lenses in other directions. > >Bob Rothrock > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on >special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re:[PRR] FP7's Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:14:32 -0600 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 4500035ff90afa85129b3e1aa87915a5 Fred--Below is some info for you, but first some data from when the Pennsy was still the Pennsy. In the 50's the four Tuscan Red FP7's were used out of Enola on freights headed up the Susquehanna Division at least some of the time. The DGLE FP7's are harder to find because their appearance is so close to normal F's. For photos see: Don Ball's "The Pennsylvania Railroad 1940's - 1950's", page 106, Don Wood's "I Remember Pennsy", page 110, and Staufer's "Pennsy Power II", page 319. All four of the Tuscan units are on that page. I believe photos of FP7's in passenger service are rare. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL -----Original Message----- From: PRRSignals@aol.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 12:32 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR EMD FP7's in P-RSL Service photos... >***Okay, Tom- > >A quick look thru my P-RSL Library shows..... > >Here is a neat one for you non-FP7 folks, in 1949 they ran newly-delivered PRR >F3 # 9557 ( which had front coupler covers...) in road tests towing P70's >during the summer of 1949...a prototype for everything !!! > >PRR FP7 #4357 plus 1 on an AC Race Train....sep 1967... > >PRR# 4354 and it says 4368, double on ac race train, 1967.. > >PRR # 4367 and it says 4347, double ac on race train, 1967.. > >So, Tom, there are a couple of "good numbers" for you !!! Bill*** > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 01:08:02 EST Subject: [PRR] Dual Headlight Sharks.. X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: af0a2909553defe3c69751496f10844f ***Back on the quiz, that was one of the questions, " which wreck and which engine became single headlight". OK, I narrowed down the unit number, but now the wreck ????? BTW, The BLH Operators manual for the Psgr sharks shows that definitely as a MARS Light ( top one ).....bill*******. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 01:02:58 EST Subject: [PRR] FP7's on the PRR / PC... X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 57c874ff300136e227ec044abfe2917e ***Fred, if you will write me, I will provide that info.....thanks, Bill**** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Another question: semaphores Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:40:27 -0500 (EST) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: a1e080f1bb4e0381fd91d7bd2f8b74f0 > << Does anyone on this list know semaphore diagramming well enough > to write up a set of rules as to how the diagrams are done? > By "diagrams", I mean the drawings, depicting the signal, used to > indicate the types of aspects the semaphores can display, as used, > e.g., on interlocking diagrams and track charts. > >> > ***Yes, that will be in my Third Installment on PRRSignals....probably posted > on our "Blades" Website before then.....Bill**** Does the website exist already? If so, what's the address? -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] P&E Traffic...Shamokin Steam, Venezuela takes over, Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:39:39 -0500 (EST) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 8d60643aab81bcd4288a694f7e72cefb > << > Just saw this at the end of the message. I will of course defer to Hirsimaki. > >> > ***Welll, that is very sporting of you !!! > Another of the "470" group came forward with a note that the ore boats length > exceed the locks capacity, therefore a 'natural' elimination right there. I did not want to mention this, as it did not seem relevant to the general discussion at the time, that [Great] Lake boats are nowadays quite small compared with most other boats, the reason for this being the sizes of the canal locks. All the sources I've read stated it simply as I said above: that their "size" was small. I never knew it was length that was the issue; I had assumed ['till proven one way or the other] that it was width, as width is the major issue that makes lock (re)construction either feasible or too expensive to consider. Thanks, though, for reminding me that there is also a (small) 'captive' fleet on the Lakes: boats built on the spot, too big to fit through the locks, that as a result are captive to their native lake or lakes. Just FYI, locks exist at the following places: St. Mary River, between Lake Superior and Lake Huron. Welland Canal, between Lake Erie and Lake Ontario (this is the bypass of Niagara Falls; the single tall bridge on the QEW, when you're travelling to Toronto or to (!) Hamilton Jct., takes you over this canal). St. Lawrence Seaway, between Lake Ontario and the ocean; mostly in the vicinity of Montreal. Lake Michigan and Lake Huron are hydrologically one lake, being connected by the relatively deep Straits of Mackinac. [pronounced "MAKinaw"] From Lake Huron to Lake Erie, (via the St. Clair River, Lake St. Clair, and Detroit River), there is a small drop in elevation, on the order of teens of feet; no canal is required. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 07:34:02 +0000 From: tqpj6@pty.com Subject: [PRR] 10th steet branch, Erie X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 923c288121b3f50a4d9057be6b989924 Was looking at my 1948 Renovo division time table and saw a reference under Erie to a 10th steet branch. Does anyone have any info on this? thanks mac ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:54:50 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] FP7's X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 792e08b351852c38d4d29359fb10e9f4 In a message dated 99-01-25 01:22:56 EST, you write: << Staufer's "Pennsy Power II", page 319. All four of the Tuscan units are on that page. I believe photos of FP7's in passenger service are rare. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL -- >>** ***Thanks, Steve- You saved me from a lot of digging !!! Enjoyable, but I do have other agendas in my life ( work / food /etc....hahaha.) All of the FP7 numbers I listed WERE in pasgr service !!......Bill***** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas Fry" Subject: [PRR] FW: Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:05:40 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: bcddf950a03b5ab79b48ec129505a377 This is the response I received from American Rail Car(paint division) on color matching... I was at a Computer Show in NY last week and had the retina pull loose on my right eye.. so I'm in hunt and peck mode for now... Enjoying all the chatter with one eye for now... Thomas D Fry -----Original Message----- From: rarmbruster@americanrailcar.com [mailto:rarmbruster@americanrailcar.com] Sent: Monday, January 18, 1999 10:22 AM To: 'blackhawk@csi.com' Subject: Tom, Your e-mail from 1/6/99 was forwarded to me for response. I am the coatings manager and can suggest a few things that may help you make a color match. 1) Get a physical sample to be computer matched. If you can get a sample, and it can be as small as a ½" X ½", a paint manufacturer can do a computer color analysis and match it to modern formulas. If it has been weathered and is chalky, rub it back to the original color by using rubbing compound and clean white cloth before removing the sample. Any reputable retail paint store should be able to make a match using whats called a "Macbeth" color analyzer. 2) Find a color reference for the original color i.e. Munsell, Federal color series or other reference that could be used by a current paint manufacturers. This could be old archived information from the rail car owner or railcar manufacturer. A long shot would be reference to the manufacturer and paint code which would make sense to a modern paint manufacturer. Good luck, Rich Armbruster ARI Manager-Coating Operations ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: Re: [PRR] 10th steet branch, Erie Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:59:44 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 6095ed9e904296c7b23573d5d48d003f -----Original Message----- From: tqpj6@pty.com To: prr-lisst Date: Monday, January 25, 1999 8:23 AM Subject: [PRR] 10th steet branch, Erie >Was looking at my 1948 Renovo division time table and saw a reference >under Erie to a 10th steet branch. Does anyone have any info on this? > The 10th Street Branch left the P&E at 10th Street and went east down 10th Street to around Dowing Road where it veered south to run parallel to the NYC and connected with the East Erie Commercial RR (GE). There were several industries along the branch besides GE including Hammermill Paper Co. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:47:03 EST Subject: [PRR] Bethlehem Steel ore traffic X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 0770f7dab7defc40bd34c341d06d0ddc After reading the messages on the lake ore and the opening of the seaway I decided to try and find out why the traffic moved off the PRR's Erie to Mt Carmel routing. Since I model part of this route and operate the traffic the infois important to me. This is what I have found out courtesy of good friend Jim Kerner. During the mid fifties the Cornwall mine in Cornwall Pa. was running out of reserves and the FE (iron ) content was not as rich as Grace' Mines ( in Johanna Pa. ) even tho they had a concentrator. The LV MT. Carmel connection was ceased in '61 , maybe early '62 due to the cost of transporting the Hibernia, Minn. ore that way, and the higher concentration of Grace ore. The LV last used pups ( SW-8's ) on the eastbound ore the last contract was for 85 cars. The ore that came up the RDG Bethlehem branch was off loaded at RDG pier 14 in Phila. , which was old and obsolete. As soon as Conrail could ,it switched the boats over to the ex PRR pier 122, which is from where all the Bel-Del ore came from, and then routed thru Reading/Allentown via PRR/LV or CNJ then to the Reading to Saucon Yard. Bethlehem had long term contracts/ownership for Venezuelian ore, hence most came through on ocean going freighters, hence the capacity was less than that of the "lakers" which could not fit the locks in the seaway. Economics was the bottom line. Grace still has a huge reserve, but underground mining is not cost effective. Jim's info is from Bud Chase who handled the ore shipments for the Betlehem Steel Corporation. The PRR's ore pier handled the imported ore from Labrador and Venezuela starting in the late fifties. The G-38 and G-39 jennies were built for this traffic. The majority of ore that came thru Phila was either for Beth Steel's Bethlehem plant via the Bel-Del to Phillipsburg then LV or CNJ to Allentown then Reading to the plant. Later on when the CNJ pulled out of Pa (1972 ) the LV handled all on their end. The other ore was the Orinoco Mines for US Steel's sintering plant in Saxonburg Pa. This was handled PRR-Phila. To Butler Jct. to the B&LE to Saxonburg. The trains of B&LE jennies that you saw on the east end of the PRR were in this service. This traffic lasted until 1986 into Conrail. The plant was closed as Taconite had supplanted sintered ore. Hope this info helps. Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 16:59:47 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] The Monopoly roads? X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 8a12ca970985ae329a86459d24c2cb06 Hello all, Here is a question that came over "The Limited" e-mail, and the rather tentative answer I gave. Anyone care to follow up on this? Thanks to all, B ===== >message:the monopoly game has 4 railroads;penn,b&o,reading and >shortlines. who >was shortline? > >hogjaws@tiptontel.com ===== Howdy, I am going to hazard a guess and say that it was the Central RR of New Jersey. All the roads named provide service to Atlantic City, home of the Monopoly game, and the CNJ is a "short line" that also goes there. Hope this helps, Regards, Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:02:15 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] FP7's X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 481e469f24311767991ed93d620cdb02 Steve and folks, I always enjoy picking up info on the FP7's as they're one of my favorite engine models, at least short of pure passenger engines. Reminds me of tales a real old Pennsy hand used to tell us at the local pub after club meetings. (Anyone kept up on Don Hess, by the way? last I heard he was down in Cinncy). Seems Don started out back in the 50's with a Pennsy job he should have had to pay them for: noting engine and consists numbers at the Pittsburgh depot. He used to make special mention of some of the big St. Louis trains coming in behind four unit sets of FP7's, with F7B's, all in the correct order. These weren't the second rank jobs either, but the nane trains. He had a wealth of info ( "ya couldn't run 'short cars' {X29's} on that train...too bumpy for the Pullmans.." and etc) and we always hated to hear the bartender hollering Last Call. Some of that stuff really was the good old days, in a lotta ways. Later, guys, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Jan 99 19:01:11 EST From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] SD-9's X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: f19d41e76f73ea5043b6e14a673afd57 Of all the SD-9's that the Pennsy had, which ones had Trainphone Antennas? Nearly every photo I have seen of the PRR SD-9's indicated that most of them did not have them. However, I have seen one or two photos of SD-9's with the inductive antennas. Does anyone know which SD-9's had them and during what time period? Ted ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:12:16 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West & Triumph Series (long) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: a89dae1eee16b8e6e8fc24f6547c9750 In a message dated 99-01-21 09:58:29 EST, LINESWEST@aol.com writes: << in that station in eastern Pennsylvania whose name I currently can't recall I think you mean Lewistown, which is somewhere out beyond the end of catenary. Hardly "eastern Pennsylvania". (Just kidding, Tom!!!) Seriously, now....I thought that I recently saw, on this list, a posting which described all of the planned "Triumph" volumes, and I thought this post included Lines West (possibly even two volumes of Lines West). Am I mistaken?? Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: [PRR] Model related Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:20:14 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: bf31de9e6f5e0e5e6e08127cc40e57d1 To all: There was a model company called " Winchester Station" from the town of Canal Winchester, Ohio south of Columbus I think. Are they still in business? They produced a model of the Royalty Coal & Coke Co., and various Coal docks & towers. I am looking for an address and phone number, if they are still in business. Come on now.....It's " Lines West" Bill ( at the end of the NCR) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 00:55:28 -0500 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: [PRR] P&E Traffic...Shamokin Steam, Venezuela takes over, X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: fbee48699ad9cba3667ae77ef7d39eaf Mark Bej wrote: > I did not want to mention this, as it did not seem relevant to the general > discussion at the time, that [Great] Lake boats are nowadays quite small compared > with most other boats, the reason for this being the sizes of the canal locks. > Within the last year or two, GE sent a shipment of locomotives to South America or somewhere by ship through the port of Erie -- the first such shipment in x-number of years. When asked why they didn't more often, the GE spokesperson said something to the effect "Only about 8% of ocean -going ships now fit through the St. Lawrence Seaway." -- Jerry Shickler e-mail: geshick@velocity.net Visit the PRR P&E/E&P web-site at http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 00:47:56 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bethlehem Steel ore traffic = both sides covered !! X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 0334c83e8e4de88ecc45fb3ebfbfaf1a *****Thanks, Ken- The Small world theory surfaces again, as Jim K. and I go back..!!! Your info via Jim exactly agrees with my info, which came from the 'other side', the USSteel / Orinoco connection !! Those LV Pups were a rarity in that they were MU-able, set up especially for the LV Hazelton Job, and others, etc., and it was a trip to see five LV Pups Roaring along at full throttle at, ummm, jogging speeds. Pix of this job are around, ARHS, etc. There is one more Beth Steel contact I am awaiting a reply from, and I''ll see if I can get any more data !!! Bill******** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:32:05 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] The Monopoly roads? From: Patrick M Egan X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 985d6bf634f3dcfd17a7ab7eb708e7ca I recall reading that there was a railroad locally known in Atlantic City many years ago as the Short Line, which provided the name for the game. I seem to recall that it was either a real Short Line, rather than the CNJ, or an electric interurban. It might show up in Hilton and Due's The Electric Interurban Railway in North America. My copy is not handy. Pat Egan (no web access) On Mon, 25 Jan 1999 16:59:47 -0600 (CST) rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) writes: >Hello all, > >Here is a question that came over "The Limited" e-mail, and the rather >tentative answer I gave. Anyone care to follow up on this? > >Thanks to all, > >B > >===== > >>message:the monopoly game has 4 railroads;penn,b&o,reading and >>shortlines. who >>was shortline? >> >>hogjaws@tiptontel.com > >===== > >Howdy, > >I am going to hazard a guess and say that it was the Central RR of New >Jersey. All the roads named provide service to Atlantic City, home >of the >Monopoly game, and the CNJ is a "short line" that also goes there. > >Hope this helps, > >Regards, > >Bob > >Robert A. Boyd > >======== >Those Classic Trains >"Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" > >"The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service >http://www.thoseclassictrains.com >======== > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on >special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVPedro@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 01:27:41 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] The Monopoly roads? X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: b5e510c4aca14fae1e66ba22975e8e0c The B&O was on the monopoly board, but it never went to Atlantic City to the best of my knowledge. The CNJ did run trains from NY into AC via the PRR or Reading. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 00:56:29 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] The Monopoly roads? X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 9e91bc0dc7a9c6e010def0432bc3eb12 ****A-HEM.... to call my beloved CNJ a 'short line' is a bit of a stretch for several hundred miles of Main Line multiple track multi-state (3) railroad !!! And, there do not seem to be any photos of **B&O** trains in AC.....haha. Seems like the game author's license.... How about the Shore Fast Line, used as an abbreviation ????... The Monopoly crowd has disserttations on this subject, but I will never find them here ......not this week, as publishing deadlines loom, ......bill*** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:24:48 +0000 From: "Roger P. Hensley" Subject: Re: [PRR] The Monopoly roads? X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: eca3b374031625a6d08529915604dc92 > From: PRRSignals@aol.com > Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 00:56:29 EST > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] The Monopoly roads? Short Line? > Seems like the game author's license.... No, if I recall, there was a Short Line and it served a resort area along the NJ (?) coast about the turn of the last century. I read a short article on it about 6 months ago, but I returned the magazine to the owner. I was interested in another article in the magazine. Roger Roger Hensley 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com == http://bsuvc.bsu.edu/~00rphensley/cidwelco.html ========= == Railroads of Madison County (Indiana) =================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ODyard@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 06:16:21 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] 10th steet branch, Erie X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 3a4512b11a81c5856d3fe8c0d426bb2e Re:>Was looking at my 1948 Renovo division time table and saw a reference >under Erie to a 10th street branch. Does anyone have any info on this? > The 10th Street Branch left the P&E at 10th Street and went east down 10th Street to around Dowing Road where it veered south to run parallel to the NYC and connected with the East Erie Commercial RR (GE). There were several industries along the branch besides GE including Hammermill Paper Co. The 10th St branch ran past Downing all the way to GE. At 10th and Bacon it serviced a large coal yard. As recently as a few years ago the PRR concrete bumpers, a least six of them, were still there. The track across Franklin Ave was in until just last year. At 10th and Brandes, the spur to American Meter can still be seen in the parking lot of a bar. Every now and then you can see pieces of the rail when the pavement of East 10th Street wears away. Conrail still uses about 100 yards of the branch around 10th and Downing. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ODyard@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 06:09:21 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/26/99 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 6e50f5ce7c16b5b51fbee32deaf0f809 In a message dated 1/26/99 3:05:45 AM EST, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Re: [PRR] 10th steet branch, Erie ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:49:58 -0500 From: tmahon@cfnh.com (Tom Mahon) Subject: Re: [PRR] The Monopoly roads? X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: fa009f03633e3a28e7942af7eb1aec00 PRRSignals@aol.com wrote: > > Seems like the game author's license.... > How about the Shore Fast Line, used as an abbreviation ????... The Shore Fast Line was really the Atlantic City Railroad an interurban that covered a some of the territory south and west (Pleasantville) of AC. Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gripp, William [NCSUS]" Subject: RE: [PRR] Bethlehem Steel ore traffic = both sides covered !! Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:00:22 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: f6f13fa79e6802607c510c8b1e4c7eeb > Those LV Pups were a rarity in that they were MU-able, set up especially > for > the LV Hazelton Job, and others, etc., and it was a trip to see five LV > Pups > Roaring along at full throttle at, ummm, jogging speeds. > Actually what made the pups a rarity more than the MU was the d/bs! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:16:31 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] The Monopoly roads? X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 3fae02db8a941e429cea543a539a5d5e On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Patrick M Egan wrote: > I recall reading that there was a railroad locally known in Atlantic City > many years ago as the Short Line, which provided the name for the game. > I seem to recall that it was either a real Short Line, rather than the > CNJ, or an electric interurban. It might show up in Hilton and Due's The > Electric Interurban Railway in North America. My copy is not handy. Atlantic City's street railway service and interurban service were at one time owned by the same company; Later, the PRR owned the street railway system (whose cars, in later years including Brilliner PCC-almost-lookalikes, were numbered into the ranks of the PRR passenger fleet, apparently); The name of that system fails me now, but the interurban line, which crossed what's now the intercoastal waterway before running south along the shore, was most definitely the "Shore Fast Line". (electric/street/interurban railways are another interest of mine, and locally there's a good degree of crossover when out railfanning branches that are out of service or have been lifted) -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:39:09 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] orderng drawings from PRRT&HS X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: ef9017e69294381987b021cc77fa7498 Tom: First you order the list of drawings for wach class of car. When that is received, you then order the drawings but drawing number. For example, if you want to model a X35. You order the list of drawings for the X35. This list will include detail drawings of everything that went into the construction of the car. To model the car you may only want the general erection drawings for the side, end, roof and underframe. If you want to detail the underframe then you will need the brake line drawings etc. But you don't need the cross section of the bolsters and the drawings of the internal parts of the triple valve etc. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: Re: [PRR] The Monopoly roads? Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:11:49 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: a5ab9ea6673f044117dd39af1444673b PRRSignals@aol.com wrote: >> Seems like the game author's license.... >> How about the Shore Fast Line, used as an abbreviation ????... and Tom Mahon added: >The Shore Fast Line was really the Atlantic City Railroad an interurban >that covered a some of the territory south and west (Pleasantville) of >AC. I have to correct Tom's note. The Shore Fast Line was not affiliated with the Atlantic City RR (RDG). There were three rail routes in and out of Atlantic City. The first was the Camden & Atlantic (PRR); second was the Atlantic City RR (RDG) and the third was the West Jersey & Atlantic (PRR via Newfield and Woodbury). The Shore Fast Line, i.e. the Atlantic City and Shore RR, had trackage rights over the PRR's West Jersey & Atlantic between Atlantic City and Pleasantville (actually it also used the West Jersey's Somers Point Branch). The West Jersey & Atlantic was third rail electric its entire length between Camden and Atlantic City until 1931. The CNJ also came into Atlantic City via its New Jersey Southern Division and a connection to the Atlantic City Railroad at Winslow Junction, The B&O never operated to Atlantic City. The subject of what the Short Line was on the Monopoly board has been argued to death on the Railroad List and since no one really knows what the author had in mind I won't venture further opinions. Dick Makse ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Jan 99 08:55:38 EST From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re[2]: [PRR] FP7's X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: be9c01cade3efed0a395ac8eb5ab862d FP-7's were being used on the point on several trains on the Fort Wayne line in the mid-60's. I gained possession of PRR trainsheets of Warsaw Tower (protected the crossing of the NYC Goshen to Anderson line) in Warsaw, Indiana just before the tower was raised in the mid-80's. The timesheets that I have are all of 1965 and all but two months of 1966. Based on my research of the timesheets which included the train symbols and the lead engine numbers, FP-7's were quite frequent in pulling trains such as FW-8, CS-8, CG-2, LCL-1/7, and GREX-2. I don't remember them pulling any of the TruckTrains; those were typically pulled by second generation EMD, Alco, and GE power (but sometimes GP-9's had the honor to being on the point) By 1965, a number of the FP-7's were painted brunswick green with a handfull of keystones on them. However, there probably were still some painted the classic freight version with the solid stripe and "pennsylvania" on the side. Incidently, I am in the process of compiling these timesheets into a spreadsheet for using the data for an upcoming article(s) for the "Keystone." Information such as train symbols, average train speeds between adjacent block stations, and typical power on the point will be covered. Another interesting thing is to find out what were the types of engines that appeared the most on the points of trains (or certain trains). Also, what were the most common engine numbers that appeared in a given class. For example, the most common GP-35 that appeared on the point of trains past Warsaw Tower in 1965 was number 2299. Hence, I modeled that engine since I am modeling the Fort Wayne line in northern Indiana. Another interesting find was that number 2415, Pennsy's lone C-424, was found on the point almost a dozen times past Warsaw in 1965. Ted ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re:[PRR] FP7's Author: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) at Internet Date: 1/25/99 1:24 AM Fred--Below is some info for you, but first some data from when the Pennsy was still the Pennsy. In the 50's the four Tuscan Red FP7's were used out of Enola on freights headed up the Susquehanna Division at least some of the time. The DGLE FP7's are harder to find because their appearance is so close to normal F's. For photos see: Don Ball's "The Pennsylvania Railroad 1940's - 1950's", page 106, Don Wood's "I Remember Pennsy", page 110, and Staufer's "Pennsy Power II", page 319. All four of the Tuscan units are on that page. I believe photos of FP7's in passenger service are rare. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL -----Original Message----- From: PRRSignals@aol.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 12:32 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR EMD FP7's in P-RSL Service photos... >***Okay, Tom- > >A quick look thru my P-RSL Library shows..... > >Here is a neat one for you non-FP7 folks, in 1949 they ran newly-delivered PRR >F3 # 9557 ( which had front coupler covers...) in road tests towing P70's >during the summer of 1949...a prototype for everything !!! > >PRR FP7 #4357 plus 1 on an AC Race Train....sep 1967... > >PRR# 4354 and it says 4368, double on ac race train, 1967.. > >PRR # 4367 and it says 4347, double ac on race train, 1967.. > >So, Tom, there are a couple of "good numbers" for you !!! Bill*** > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:47:18 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] The Monopoly roads? X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: df7450e6abca1a6dcbd6139160f487f7 In a message dated 99-01-26 09:21:05 EST, you write: << The Shore Fast Line was really the Atlantic City Railroad an interurban that covered a some of the territory south and west (Pleasantville) of AC. >>***Tom, you may have these complex histories crossed, as the "Atlantic City Railroad" was the P&R predecessor 'real' Steam Road. The Shore Fast Line was formally the " Atlantic City & Shore RR Co.", and was aligned heavily with the WJ&S ( C&A, PRR interests...) , by connections, trackage rights, shared usage, propulsion current supply, etc. ...Bill***** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:23:17 EST Subject: [PRR] orderng drawings from PRRT&HS X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 00d67932de3e050e872895a653435015 Hey, can anybody out there explain how to order drawings using the PRRT&HS order form? Tom V/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:12:17 +0000 From: tqpj6@pty.com Subject: Re: [PRR] P&E Traffic...Shamokin Steam, Venezuela takes over, X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 8b42d92b32ecb09062543de78669b8ec Here in Panama, the engines (known as Mules) that help the vessels through each of the three locks are made by GE in erie. When I get homesick I go look at the static model of one of the originals and read where it was made. MAC Jerry Shickler wrote: > Mark Bej wrote: > > > I did not want to mention this, as it did not seem relevant to the general > > discussion at the time, that [Great] Lake boats are nowadays quite small compared > > with most other boats, the reason for this being the sizes of the canal locks. > > > > Within the last year or two, GE sent a shipment of locomotives to South > America or somewhere by ship through the port of Erie -- the first such > shipment in x-number of years. When asked why they didn't more often, > the GE spokesperson said something to the effect "Only about 8% of ocean > -going ships now fit through the St. Lawrence Seaway." > -- > Jerry Shickler > e-mail: geshick@velocity.net > Visit the PRR P&E/E&P web-site at > http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWSNRHS@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:43:13 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] The Monopoly roads? X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 0270bdccd2410a24260173547773bf62 In case anyone is a member of the National Railway Historical Society, their National Railway Bulletin, Volume 63, Number 4 (1998) appears to detail the history of this service to Atlantic City. Hope this is of some help in your research. Dave Seidel Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS Altoona, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Looking for Bob Strong Date: Tue, 26 Jan 99 15:48:40 -0500 From: Jerry X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 7db4a91e2aefea34130edbb4490feb5d On 12/31/98 4:17 PM, Chris Brandt (cobrandt@eclipse.net) wrote: >Jerry wrote: > >> Anyway, his phone number as of May was 609-723-5463. I just tried it and >> it "has been disconnected with no additional information." >> >> Does anyone know where this guy has gone? I want to place an order for >> HARRIS tower! >> > >Address is listed as > > R W Strong > 4240 N Falcon Court > Trenton, NJ 08641 Tried directory assistance in Trenton. No such listing. If anyone tracks this guy down, please let me know. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Re: Bachmann Response on K4 Tenders & More Date: Wed, 27 Jan 99 14:54:28 -0500 From: Jerry X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: de714acffd403328006d72f0d16377ef I am once again breaking my own rule (okay, "rule" is too strong a word) about posting "Merchandise Service" announcements to the full list...but this one seemed pretty important. I have been in private (electronic) talks with Bachmann about the individual sale of their K4 tenders...even offering to make one bulk purchase without separate packaging to make it easier for them. I just received this response: On 1/27/99 2:14 PM, xxx@xxx.xxx (xxx@xxx.xxx) wrote: >I checked with some of our people, and unfortunately, we will not be able to >provide separate sale PRR tenders to you. Although we will certainly be >making >this locomotive again in the future, the current production run is >complete in >China, and no additional parts to make tenders are available. Did you comprehend that... "the current production run is complete." That means that the supply of Bachmann Spectrum PRR K4's will dry up. What is in the wholesale distribution channel to hobby stores is it. They will not be able to reorder! I still have a few of these units in stock (#1361 and #3750) for $88 each (20% off list of $110). If anyone is interested, visit http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com and place an order. Credit cards are now accepted. Disclaimer: Availability subject to change without notice! > >I can't give you even a guess as to when we might rerun the K4. I suspect >with >the way it is selling, that it will probably be sooner rather than later. Okay, that's at least comforting news. >However, even with another run, we would probably be unwilling to run extra >tenders in the amount you require. I know it sounds short-sighted on our >part, >but since it would have to be handled as a special order with modified >packaging (even a bulk shipment) it would create all kinds of questions that >would have to be answered as well as a blizzard of faxes from here to Hong >Kong. Unfortunately, with many other projects underway, it's more a matter of >time and energy than $ or customer service. I wish I could be more helpful. So we're still hosed as far as the initial request for separate tenders. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:20:03 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Tender subject ;^) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: a18bbb5f7424001bc5da808392ac36ea Hi All, I have often wonder where the complete reference for PRR tenders their eras and assignments was. I have resolved to begin what may end up being an impossible task, unless someone already has this data... I will over the next few weeks solicited your learned input, and as a trial run here goes some information. Please add to it or correct as you see fit (photographic evidence exists for each, so don't tell me it never happened!). I-1 Tenders: 90F82 (original class tender?) 130F82 (modified from 130P75, later modified back to 130P75) 180F82 (one tender, built as 180F82, then 180P75, then 180F82 again!) 180F84 (ex Q-2 tender, 16 wheel, welded) 210F82A (16 wheel, welded?) 210F82B (12 wheel, built for the class in the early '40s, welded) K-4 Tenders 70P75 (as built?) 90P75 110P75 130P75 (early and late versions) 210P75 (late '30s coast to coast experiment, later used with M1?) 250P75 (late '30s coast to coast experiment, later used with M1?) M-1 Tenders 130P75 (early and late versions) 210F75 (12 wheel, riveted) 210F75B (16 wheel, welded?) 250P75 (16 wheel?, riveted?) Happy Rails, Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FarbLand@aol.com Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:01:53 EST Subject: [PRR] H30a X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 06c3445b3a1ee2ac4a1251863b28cd76 I originally sent this message about 2 weeks ago but only got a single reply. Which was helpful. However Robs Prr page couldn't answer the question so I'll ask again. Does anyone know which H30a Covered hoppers carried the return to Buffalo NY information. If an era is known then that would be helpful. Even a photo with one in a Buffalo bound train would probably answer the question. Thanks Brian C ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:08:33 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] H30a In a message dated 1/27/99 6:38:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, FarbLand@aol.com writes: > I originally sent this message about 2 weeks ago but only got a single reply. > Which was helpful. However Robs Prr page couldn't answer the question so I' > ll > ask again. Does anyone know which H30a Covered hoppers carried the return to > Buffalo NY information. If an era is known then that would be helpful. Even > a > photo with one in a Buffalo bound train would probably answer the question. > Thanks Brian C > Brian, As far as I know, the only way anyone could POSSIBLY answer this question is if they happened to have a photograph. For example, ( I happen to be preparing an article), 250 came out of Altoona in 1951-1952. Of those 250, I have found only 7 photos of H30A's, (including my own slides and not counting the one that has appeared twice). Of those photos, only two cars have legible "return empties": Mapleton PA and CMStP&P RR Portage Wisconsin. I wouldn't have these if Rich Burg hadn't shared them with me. The odds of a hit are against us, for several reasons, including: 1. records on what cars were assigned to whom were usually top secret, to keep shippers' competitors from comparing notes on the cars pools they were assigned. Yes, I know that this info HAS been found for certain classes of 50' UP cars in early auto parts service -- but that's the only case I know. 2. photographs would only be possible on the routes an assigned car runs. To railfans, this means that, depending on where you live, you see a car ALL the time (repetitively), or you don't see it at all. Some car nut would have to live on a route outbound from Buffalo to be able to photograph the car. 3. "Return to" markings were still a staple of railroading in the 60s. But sometime in the 70s, as assigned car pools were computerized (which meant they could be redeployed at a few keystrokes), assignment markings were dropped from most freight cars. Old markings might survive until a repaint, but some were blotted out as a matter of course. Bottom line, the gentlemen of PRR-Talk didn't ignore your request because they are not generous, or are not willing to take the time to help. This group is unfailingly helpful when they have the data.They didn't answer because they don't have the answer. Sorry for our collective ignorance, Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:48:54 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender subject ;^) Howdy All: Thanks Bruce, I have now started another project, which I don't have time to finish. I listed all the tenders in my 1952 Classification book (just the listing not the specs). I put them on my web site instead of just posting them to the list, in hopes that it will spur me on to complete at least one project! You'll find them at http://www.concentric.net/~wsbcos/tenders.htm . Jerry, I put the kc start and end string in, in case this is something that you would want to use on your PRR site. Would the ocean(s) be deeper without sponges? cos wsbcos.com Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. wrote: > Hi All, > > I have often wonder where the complete reference for PRR tenders their eras > and assignments was. I have resolved to begin what may end up being an > impossible task, unless someone already has this data... I will over the > next few weeks solicited your learned input, and as a trial run here goes > some information. Please add to it or correct as you see fit (photographic > evidence exists for each, so don't tell me it never happened!). > > I-1 Tenders: > 90F82 (original class tender?) > 130F82 (modified from 130P75, later modified back to 130P75) > 180F82 (one tender, built as 180F82, then 180P75, then 180F82 again!) > 180F84 (ex Q-2 tender, 16 wheel, welded) > 210F82A (16 wheel, welded?) > 210F82B (12 wheel, built for the class in the early '40s, welded) > > K-4 Tenders > 70P75 (as built?) > 90P75 > 110P75 > 130P75 (early and late versions) > 210P75 (late '30s coast to coast experiment, later used with M1?) > 250P75 (late '30s coast to coast experiment, later used with M1?) > > M-1 Tenders > 130P75 (early and late versions) > 210F75 (12 wheel, riveted) > 210F75B (16 wheel, welded?) > 250P75 (16 wheel?, riveted?) > > Happy Rails, > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry > > PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com > _ _ > / \ / \ > ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ > |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender subject ;^) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:22:46 -0600 Bruce and the List--One tender resource would be wonderful. I will make my inputs on your list. > >I-1 Tenders: >90F82 (original class tender?) Yes, as built 110F82A >130F82 (modified from 130P75, later modified back to 130P75) >180F82 (one tender, built as 180F82, then 180P75, then 180F82 again!) >180F84 (ex Q-2 tender, 16 wheel, welded) 210F82 (12 wheel, riveted) >210F82A (16 wheel, welded?) Yes, welded, stoker motor on locomotive >210F82B (12 wheel, built for the class in the early '40s, welded) 16 wheel, welded, converted from A above, stoker motor on tender. 250F82 > >K-4 Tenders >70P75 (as built?) 70P70 as built (w/o stokers) except Baldwins >90P75 90P70 as built for Lines West 90P70 modified from 90F82, no stokers 110P70 as built at Baldwin (w/o stokers) >110P75 at least 4 versions >130P75 (early and late versions) >210P75 (late '30s coast to coast experiment, later used with M1?) >250P75 (late '30s coast to coast experiment, later used with M1?) > >M-1 Tenders 110P75 (M1 as built) >130P75 (early and late versions) >210F75 (12 wheel, riveted) on M1A as built 210F75A (16 wheel, welded, stoker motor on locomotive) >210F75B (16 wheel, welded?) Yes welded and 16 wheels, stoker motor on tender, converted from A above. >250P75 (16 wheel?, riveted?) 12 wheel and riveted, P or F versions > >Happy Rails, >Bruce > Anybody else jump in! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eugene Deimling" Subject: [PRR] H-30 CVH Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:31:26 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BE4A44.C6B5FE40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I noticed a reference to H-30 covered hoppers in a recent email. Did = the H-30 use the 2E-F2 Crown truck. I have seen it listed for the = H-21, H-22, H-25 and G-22 but not the H-30 or H-30a. Gene Deimling=20 ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BE4A44.C6B5FE40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I noticed a reference to H-30 = covered hoppers in=20 a recent email.   Did the H-30 use the 2E-F2 Crown = truck.  =20 I have seen it listed for the H-21, H-22, H-25 and G-22 but not the H-30 = or=20 H-30a.
Gene = Deimling 
------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BE4A44.C6B5FE40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:21:53 -0600 (CST) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: [PRR] PRR: Garbled message This in from Eugene Deimling. Why is the message repeated with all the character controls after the original message. Is it just my computer or is everyone experiencing this? From: "Eugene Deimling" Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:31:26 -0800 To: "PRR Forum" Subject: [PRR] H-30 CVH This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BE4A44.C6B5FE40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I noticed a reference to H-30 covered hoppers in a recent email. Did = the H-30 use the 2E-F2 Crown truck. I have seen it listed for the = H-21, H-22, H-25 and G-22 but not the H-30 or H-30a. Gene Deimling=20 ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BE4A44.C6B5FE40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I noticed a reference to H-30 = covered hoppers in=20 a recent email.   Did the H-30 use the 2E-F2 Crown = truck.  =20 I have seen it listed for the H-21, H-22, H-25 and G-22 but not the H-30 = or=20 H-30a.
Gene = Deimling 
------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BE4A44.C6B5FE40-- Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551-5926 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Bachmann Response on K4 Tenders & More Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 11:36:20 -0500 From: Jerry On 1/28/99 10:56 AM, Ted Andrews (ted.andrews@woolpert.com) wrote: > Thank you for relating this information about Bachmann. Did they give you > a "peek" at their future projects? Hobbyland, located in northern Indiana > and advertises in MR, annouced that Bachmann will be coming with a USRA > Light Mountain in the fall of '99. I would imagine that it would be > similar to the Consolidation as far as the drive train and detail go. I didn't inquire as to their future projects and they didn't offer. Yes, a Bachmann Spectrum PRR M1/M1a would be nice. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 10:56:50 EST From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Bachmann Response on K4 Tenders & More Jerry: Thank you for relating this information about Bachmann. Did they give you a "peek" at their future projects? Hobbyland, located in northern Indiana and advertises in MR, annouced that Bachmann will be coming with a USRA Light Mountain in the fall of '99. I would imagine that it would be similar to the Consolidation as far as the drive train and detail go. This is probably presumptuous on my behalf, but this might mean that Bachmann will come out with the Pennsy M-1. Bachmann will have a drive train for the mountain type steam locomotive. They can simply do plastic molds for the different boiler designs. Bachmann has done this for their "Northern" series (the NYC Niagra, the N&W J Class, and SP Daylight and War baby 4-8-4's, etc.). As everybody knows, Bachmann has enjoyed success making PRR diesel-electrics, passenger cars, doodlebugs, and steam locomotives (even though the tenders don't match the prototypes). So a PRR M-1 Mountain is not out of the question. Also, recent brass releases adds credence to this arguement. The M-1 is perhaps the most modeled PRR steam locomotive over the last 10-15 years. CIL is coming out with a Samhongsa run this summer. Key Imports produced another Sam. run in the early '90's. Oriental Limited produced a M-1 and M-1a in the mid-80's by Samhongsa. Lastly, Sunset Models came out with the "Prestige Series" in the late '80's. All of these models, regardless of the price, sold fast. Even today, it is hard to find any of the these units in model shops. (Let's not forget about Bowser and their M-1 that came out in 1990) Based on all this, I think that the market is very good for a plastic PRR M-1. If Bachmann came out with one with the same type of quality as their Consolidation ---- it would be a gold mine for them. They could produce both the pre-war and post-war versions; maybe they could make tenders with the correct dimensions :) Now, I think we can help this along by "diplomatically" whining to Bachmann. Let the whining begin!! Ted Andrews Indianapolis Indiana (Modeling the Ft. Wayne Division in northern Indiana and where the PRR ran the M-1 in fleets) ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: [PRR] Re: Bachmann Response on K4 Tenders & More Author: Jerry at Internet Date: 1/27/99 2:54 PM I am once again breaking my own rule (okay, "rule" is too strong a word) about posting "Merchandise Service" announcements to the full list...but this one seemed pretty important. I have been in private (electronic) talks with Bachmann about the individual sale of their K4 tenders...even offering to make one bulk purchase without separate packaging to make it easier for them. I just received this response: On 1/27/99 2:14 PM, xxx@xxx.xxx (xxx@xxx.xxx) wrote: >I checked with some of our people, and unfortunately, we will not be able to >provide separate sale PRR tenders to you. Although we will certainly be >making >this locomotive again in the future, the current production run is >complete in >China, and no additional parts to make tenders are available. Did you comprehend that... "the current production run is complete." That means that the supply of Bachmann Spectrum PRR K4's will dry up. What is in the wholesale distribution channel to hobby stores is it. They will not be able to reorder! I still have a few of these units in stock (#1361 and #3750) for $88 each (20% off list of $110). If anyone is interested, visit http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com and place an order. Credit cards are now accepted. Disclaimer: Availability subject to change without notice! > >I can't give you even a guess as to when we might rerun the K4. I suspect >with >the way it is selling, that it will probably be sooner rather than later. Okay, that's at least comforting news. >However, even with another run, we would probably be unwilling to run extra >tenders in the amount you require. I know it sounds short-sighted on our >part, >but since it would have to be handled as a special order with modified >packaging (even a bulk shipment) it would create all kinds of questions that >would have to be answered as well as a blizzard of faxes from here to Hong >Kong. Unfortunately, with many other projects underway, it's more a matter of >time and energy than $ or customer service. I wish I could be more helpful. So we're still hosed as far as the initial request for separate tenders. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Garbled message Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 11:12:37 -0500 From: Jerry On 1/28/99 9:21 AM, Donald E. Harper, Jr. (harperd@tamug.tamu.edu) wrote: >This in from Eugene Deimling. Why is the message repeated with all the >character controls after the original message. Is it just my computer or is >everyone experiencing this? Many folks who post to the list are doing this. It's because they have their e-mail software to send in "cutesy" MIME format which produces, essentially, an HTML format message so it can produce headlines, bold, etc. At the recipient end, if your client is set to support this format, you'll get a nice "pretty" version. Otherwise, you'll either get a second part of the message that appears garbled (the case in question) or it'll split as a worthless attachement. Most users don't know they are sending this format when they do. If you tell them about it, they usually have absolutely no idea what you are talking about or how to change it -- even if you tell them how. One subscriber was forced to leave the setting turned on while using his work account. Yes, it's trashy, but there could be worse problems on a list of over 300 people. When you see this stuff, just ignore the second part and move on. -JB, Listmaster ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Jim Six Is a New Columnist Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 13:26:02 -0500 From: Jerry Published modeler Jim Six has agreed to be a regular columnist at PENNSYRR.COM. His first article explains how he detailed a Bowser GS gondola. See http://www.pennsyrr.com Or on "Keystone Crossings" in the modeling section: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/ Thanks, Jim, and we look forward to future columns! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:12:22 -0500 (EST) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Garbled message It is Microsoft's way of saying HEY WE HAVE DECIDED BY DEFAULT THAT ALL MAIL SENT WITH Outlook Express WILL BY DEFAULT BE IN HTML FORMAT!! ;-) I sent the fix for this to Eugene directly....I deal with this sort of thing everyday as I work for an ISP and even have a canned response that I send out (that some of you may have recieved from me) Here is the text of the text file that I send out to everyone I can regarding Outlook Express: A request please, could you please turn off sending HTML encoded mail to the list. I see you used Outlook Express to send your mail If you go to Outlook Express and click on Tools, then go down to options, then click on the send tab at the top and choose plain text for Mail Sending format. Those of us who dont use M$ or Netscape to read our mail only see the raw html and renders your message just about unreadable! Thanks! ;-) The UGLY thing is that now even NETSCAPE 4.5's built in mailer is also set by default to send all mail out in HTML format as well. If anyone is using Netscape 4.5 and wish to not have this happen email me off list and I will be happy to go over the settings to get this shut off for them as well. On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Donald E. Harper, Jr. wrote: > This in from Eugene Deimling. Why is the message repeated with all the > character controls after the original message. Is it just my computer or is > everyone experiencing this? > > > > From: "Eugene Deimling" > Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:31:26 -0800 > To: "PRR Forum" > Subject: [PRR] H-30 CVH > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BE4A44.C6B5FE40 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > I noticed a reference to H-30 covered hoppers in a recent email. Did = > the H-30 use the 2E-F2 Crown truck. I have seen it listed for the = > H-21, H-22, H-25 and G-22 but not the H-30 or H-30a. > Gene Deimling=20 > > ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BE4A44.C6B5FE40 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > > http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > > > >
I noticed a reference to H-30 = > covered hoppers in=20 > a recent email.   Did the H-30 use the 2E-F2 Crown = > truck.  =20 > I have seen it listed for the H-21, H-22, H-25 and G-22 but not the H-30 = > or=20 > H-30a.
>
Gene = > Deimling 
> > ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BE4A44.C6B5FE40-- > > > > Don Harper > Texas A&M Marine Lab > 5007 Avenue U > Galveston, TX 77551-5926 > 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 > harperd@tamug.tamu.edu > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > William J. Enser Co-Net Admin - Tech Supp & Validations alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:44:17 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Bachmann USRA Mountain From: locoshop@juno.com Hello all, Yes Bachmann is doing a light USRA Mountain engine for release later this year. What is the difference in driver height between these and the M1/M1a? I had contacted Bachmann about this myself and they had basically said no way. It would require and whole new body and a new tender and would be a product for a very defined market according to them. The K4 is, according to them, a much more familiar locomotive even though it was only on PRR also just like the M1. They are stating that they have seen purchases of the K4 just to have them by modelers of other railroads. The M1, since not being as widely known, would only be used by PRR aficionados. On Thu, 28 Jan 99 11:36:20 -0500 Jerry writes: >On 1/28/99 10:56 AM, Ted Andrews (ted.andrews@woolpert.com) wrote: > >> Thank you for relating this information about Bachmann. Did they >give you >> a "peek" at their future projects? Hobbyland, located in northern >Indiana >> and advertises in MR, annouced that Bachmann will be coming with a >USRA >> Light Mountain in the fall of '99. I would imagine that it would be > >> similar to the Consolidation as far as the drive train and detail >go. > >I didn't inquire as to their future projects and they didn't offer. >Yes, >a Bachmann Spectrum PRR M1/M1a would be nice. > >------------------------------------------------------------------ >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS > Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. >Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! >WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! > The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:52:39 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: HELP!...was [PRR] Tender subject ;^) Hi all, Wayne said: >Thanks Bruce, I have now started another project, which I don't have time to >finish. I listed all the tenders in my 1952 Classification book (just the >listing not the specs). Excellent - this is the Classification and Description of Locomotives and Tenders No 109-J, Dated 1952. BTW, this is available via Jerry on the Keystone Crossings CD! Now my request: Does anyone out there have any earlier versions of booklet No 109-J? PLEASE?!!! I know that there is one dated May 15th, 1948. I will, of course, also check the usual sources such as Hagley, Altoona and Strasburg. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 15:10:55 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] H-30 CVH H-30 & H30a were built much later (Post WW 2) and used "Bettendorf" or "AAR" style trucks - not sure of PRR designation. Remember that the Crown trucks - like Andrews - reused journals from old Arch Bar Trucks Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: HELP!...was [PRR] Tender subject ;^) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 15:05:28 -0500 From: Jerry On 1/28/99 1:52 PM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >Does anyone out there have any earlier versions of booklet No 109-J? For the benefit of Bruce and the others...earlier versions would not have the "J" suffix. This suffix incremented for each release/update of the book, simply called "Form 109". The suffix is another reference to the release date. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:09:36 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] H-30 CV i9nfo and Buffalo "SWAG" (long) In a message dated 1/28/99 4:16:07 PM SA Pacific Standard Time, VVA249@aol.com writes: << H-30 & H30A were built much later (Post WW 2) and used "Bettendorf" or "AAR" style trucks -- not sure of PRR designation. Remember that the Crown trucks - like Andrews - reused journals from old Arch Bar Trucks Dick Ross Cleveland >> Dick, The H32 programme was 1947-1949 However, the H30 programme began in 1935 and lasted until 1949. Still too late for Crown or Andrews trucks which were barred from interchange in the 1920s but a decade earlier than your answer states. What follows is some background info on development of covered hoppers I made in response to the Buffalo return address question that sparked the H30 discussion. << I don't have any specific knowledge of Pennsy plant or operations in the Buffalo area but please consider my SWAG (Scientific Wild A-- Guess) based upon my knowledge of covered hoppers and Buffalo geology. << Covered hoppers were developed in the early to mid 1930s specifically for hauling Portland cement. Up until that time bulk was shipped in box cars either in bags or loose with wood blocking the doors. Boxcars in regular cement service usually had hatches in the roof to speed loading and more effectively use all the available space in the car. But shopping cement either in bulk or in bags in boxcars was expensive because laborers had be hired to either shovel the cement out or to unload the bags. << In the late teens and early 1920s both the PRR and NYC experimented with shipping bulk cement in containers. While an improvement over the boxcar, it still did not achieve the saving that had occurred around 1900 when the self- clearing twin bay hopper car had come into wide use. << Spontaneously across the nation in the late 1920s and early 1930s, railroads began experimenting with building roofs on open-top hopper cars. I believe the first such project wearing the keystone was a variant of the GL twin-bay hopper family (My memory says it was designated the GLH class but I'm taking this off the top of my head so this information needs verified.) << The H30 class was the Pennsylvania Railroad's first original design of a covered hopper. << "Between 1935 and 1949 the Pennsylvania RR built 1,325 of these uniquely designed, 70-ton capacity, H30 covered hoppers for cement service," was the opening paragraph of the story accompanying Chuck Yungurth's H30A and H30B drawings on pages 66 and 67 of the October 1981 Model Railroader. << As it is a widely know fact that the Niagara Falls is at the head of a limestone gorge, I would assume that the Buffalo area, like southwestern Ohio is underlain with limestone having the right chemical makeup (I think high levels of magnesium and other metallic elements is important) for Portland cement. If the car calls for a return to Buffalo, I assume that it would be to a yard with storage bunkers and a cement kiln nearby. << Originally the cars were painted Freight Car Color with the circle keystone herald in white. The powdered cement quickly turned the red cars gray and that was the color they were painted when the switch to the shadow keystone occurred in 1954 with black lettering. << The H30, with its memorable bridge truss design, was only 37 feet between strikers. The 52-foot H32 was introduced in 1947. Drawings of it are in the February 1968 Railroad Model Craftsman. tracings of all three classes can be downloaded from Rob Schoenberg's Pennsylvania Railroad Pages at "http://prr.railfan.net/index.html." << I hope this satisfies your curiosity. You'll need to talk with someone familiar with Pennsy operations in Buffalo or with the cement trade in that area to be more specific. If your interested in operations, the car could be spotted at an interchange track or holding track for spotting at an imaginary cement plant beyond the layout.>> Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 18:22:03 EST Subject: [PRR] Ore Shipping? Great Lakes Folks, This isn't terribly related to Pennsy ore traffic, but the Discovery channel is having one of their "investigations" on the sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald tonight. It's at 8 pm central. Besides the Fitz it appears they cover the weather and shipping conditons of the Great Lakes as well. Also, the history channel has a show about, I think, the robbery of Milwaukee Road's Fast Mail back in the late twenties. This is on an hour earlier. And as a nightcap, the history channel covers the Santa Fe railway at 10 pm central. Not related at all, but who doesn't love that war bonnet paint scheme? (And Pennsy transcon sleepers via Chicago to the Santa Fe)? Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 19:08:10 EST Subject: [PRR] X29F and G (Was New Pennsy Cars) Makes sense that the X29F rumor was a garble. I'll be totally amazed if any manufacturer ever favors us with models of an X-29F or X29G rebuild. These 1959 rebuilds of the X29 were created to quiet a few customers who wanted: - a car that didn't leak (water in or material out) - an 8' wide door for lift truck loading - full-width, full (10'-6) ceiling height for more appliances loaded in each row. A big chunk of the X29F output (400 cars) was assigned to GE Appliance Louisville (both L&N and Southern originated outbound moves). Another group out of the X29G's (900 cars) were assigned to the Hotpoint Plant in Cicero IL (another GE Appliance operation), switched by B&OCT. Both classes' rebuildings appeared to use similar sides, ends, (Youngstown) doors, and (horizontal zee bar) side sills. And both were painted in "SK2a" lettering, standard for 1957-1960. Best clue of their differences was that the Louisville-assigned X29's had "Spartan TriBest" loading bars installed, therefore there was a plate on the corrugated door that carried a yellow "STB" logo. Or you could look for the class stencil on the lower right outside. Richard Burg discusses the 1959 rebuild program in "1959 Box Car Rebuilds" in the June 1979 Keystone. It's surprising to realize that more than 1 out of 10 X29's ever built were converted in this one rebuild program. I don't believe there's ever been any other published article on these classes nor any published photos other than X29G 605413 that Rich showed. Anyone have more info? BTW, I probably have the world's largest collection of improperly exposed X29F slides :^). Rick Tipton Who considers an X29F model in plastic more unlikely (even) than the fabled and long-awaited coming of the R-40-10 refrigerator car. On the other hand, there will someday be an X29D, because the mass marketers have already issued "Don't Stand Me Still" on the wrong car 3 times (LOL). Four would be unthinkable. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ODyard@aol.com Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 22:14:28 EST Subject: [PRR] Bowser M1 and M1a Greetings to the group! In the posting on the Bachman USRA Lt. Mountain I noted a reference to the Bowser Mountain kits as a resource for modeling the M's. I have built about 8 of them in the last 3 years in my custom painting business. I have just climbed out of the basement where I am building another two right now. In my opinion they are in dire need of a retooling. The firebox is too fat where it meets the cab. All PRR fireboxes taper toward the cab. The Bowser M does not. It is very apparent when looking down from above. The brass running boards do not line up with the holes for the retaining screws. The white metal castings-such as the steam dome. smokebox front and others have excessive flash or poor detail. The cab floor arrangement is a joke. In the super detail kit, many of the castings are poorly formed and of inferior quality. I will admit that when built properly, at least 20 hours for one who has built them before, and properly painted and weathered, they do look good if you ignore the firebox problem. Bowser's recently reworked L1, K4 and I1s are excellent in all ways, except for the plastic trailing truck wheels on the L1. The M1 and M1a should be as nice and would be if he junked the molds and had new tooling made. I am sure that increased sales would make up for the expense. I understand that the M's are Bowser's slowest selling kits. I understand why. Don Murphy Westside Locomotive Works ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 19:08:06 EST Subject: Re: HELP!...was [PRR] Tender subject ;^) In a message dated 1/28/99 2:04:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: > Now my request: > > Does anyone out there have any earlier versions of booklet No 109-J? > PLEASE?!!! > I know that there is one dated May 15th, 1948. I will, of course, also > check the usual sources such as Hagley, Altoona and Strasburg. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > Bruce, No sympathy, it's tough for me to get farther than the local Free Public Library. However -- was this document the same one reproduced by Owen Davies, Bookseller in 1972? Their title for this reprint was "Descriptive List of Locomotives and Tenders The Pennsylvania Railroad (and Long Island Railroad) subheaded Steam- Electric - Diesel Electric and Gasoline-Electric Locomotives May 1948. The document reproduces 49 pages of a document dated May 15, 1948 at the bottom of each sheet. Pp1-2 are text, pp3-4 a list of locomotive classes, and pp5-33 tabular forms (52 lines long) with specs on the locomotive classes listed. PP 34-35 list tender classes (with numerous references to Lines East and some to Lines West types), and pp 36-49 are forms 25 lines long that cover specs on the tender classes. On page 1 it states "superseding Classification and Description of Locomotives and Tenders No. 109-I, Dated Dec. 20th, 1933." Does this tell you anything new, or is this what you already knew? Interesting that the issued document ran from 1933 to 1948, but a reissue in 1953 makes sense in terms of the radical changes in motive power (new classes, old classes gone). Some obvious motive power observations in the 1948 document: 1. still listed/spec'd some oldies: E3sd, E5s, K2s, K2sa, K3s, CC2s, HH1 (ex- N&W Y3 and Y3a). 2. included newest steam: the Q1, Q2, S1, S2, T1 (6100 and 6111), and T1 (post 1-1-45, as it is put). Also both bar frame J1 and cast bed J1, plus the J1a, of course. 3. included Lines West classes -- B28s, L2s (USRA 2-8-2), N2sa (USRA 2-10-2 rebuilt with Belpaire). 4. only passenger diesels included: class BP-1, 2-D-D-2+@-D-D-2, 6000 hp, obviously the Centipedes. class EP-3, three unit 6000 hp, the 1946 E-7 order? class AP-3, three A1A-A1A, 6000 hp, the PA's class BP-3, three A1A-A1A, 6000 hp, later the BP-20 sharks class FF-2, two A1A-A-1-A, 4000 hp, FM Erie builts (I'd guess) 5. freight diesels likewise don't use the classes we've normally used to ID PRR diesels. 6. unsurprisingly, the prime mover in each diesel is only identified by maker and horsepower. Can't peek to see if any 567A's were delivered inside the newest EMD freight units, so it would be only a guess that 4 unit 6000 hp EF-4's were probably F3's with chicken wire. 7. being a book of specifications, the issuing authority scrupulously avoided any references to road numbers or construction numbers or actual construction dates or manufacture site/shop. Logical, but of course annoying to the fan, who tends to identify strongly with that data. I never cease to be amazed at what the Pennsy's historical documents will reveal (and what they won't)! Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West I ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 22:45:05 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] H-30 Trucks In a message dated 1/28/99 5:28:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, LINESWEST@aol.com writes: > Still too late for Crown or Andrews trucks which were > barred from interchange in the 1920s but a decade earlier than your answer > states. Contrary to this statement, the PRR used Crown trucks from scraped H21 hoppers under the H39A hoppers built in 1960-61. Photos of the H30 in the 2 volumes of the PRR Color Guide show a variety of trucks on these cars including the PRR version of the Crown Truck, 2EF8 (70t version of the 2DF8), Taylor, and roller bearing trucks depending on the time frame. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 23:11:53 -0600 From: Andy Cich Subject: [PRR] X-29 Model Images I recently had access to a scanner and I created a few JPG images of some HO X-29 boxcars. My models feature pastel chalk weathering, restenciled weight data, restenciled repack data, and chalk marks. The scans turned out very well. If you would like to see these images, send me an e-mail, and I will send them to you. I have two PRR X-29's available. I also have available some P&LE gondolas featuring dings and dents created by heating the plastic and poking around with a screwdriver and other objects. File size is ~350K for the X-29's and ~450K for the gons. I also would like to see scans of other peoples models, so if anybody has some, let me know. What I found in experimenting with the scanner is you need to go at least 300 dpi and you really need to crank up the brightness. Andy C. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:54:21 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Bachmann Response on K4 Tenders & More Greetings to the List, Correct, Bachmann did show a partially complete USRA Light Mountain at Chicago in OCTOBER. I will be powered in the same manner as the Consolidation. Greg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 11:58:37 -0500 From: Vincent Troia Subject: [PRR] Alco DL109 Which RR's purchase the Alco DL109 and what years were they utilized? I understand that only about 76 were produced and that the engine was an early predecessor of the PA-1's ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:20:26 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] H-30 Trucks Mea culpa, Mea culpa, Mea culpa, Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:33:39 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco DL109 ***funny, some of us were just discussing this unique Alco in the Signal Chat Group, so it is fresh: DL-109, 74 made, DL-110 Booster, 4 made. Correct, the lion's share to the NYNH&HRR = 60, noted by JP as successful in dual mode service. Also: ATSF, MILW,CNW,CRI&PRR,GM&O, SOU. Boosters only to: ATSF(1),and Southern(3). Our discussion started over a photo of one decorated in Deep Red / tuscan (?) named for The Cranberry ??!!!! NY,NH & H RR Train circa 1950's...... Ref: 2nd DSGuide, NH T&HSociety. HaveAGoodWeekendBill************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:13:34 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco DL109 In a message dated 1/29/99 1:54:11 PM SA Pacific Standard Time, WGRIPP@NCSUS.JNJ.COM writes: << If my memory is correct, something like 60 of them were purchased by the New Haven. The rest were bought in small quantities by a handful of other roads. The GM&O comes to mind, can't remember who else. >> I believe I've seen shots of them in a classic Santa Fe war bonnet and in Rock Island livery. I have a model Railroader with a story about the DL-109 but I can''t find it. Its a pretty engine, not as pretty as a T1 but close. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gripp, William [NCSUS]" Subject: RE: [PRR] Alco DL109 Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:50:05 -0500 If my memory is correct, something like 60 of them were purchased by the New Haven. The rest were bought in small quantities by a handfull of other roads. The GM&O comes to mind, can't remember who else. Bill Gripp wgripp@ncsus.jnj.com wgripp@prius.jnj.com > ---------- > From: Vincent Troia[SMTP:troiaeye@geocities.com] > Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 11:58 AM > To: n@onelist.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com; penn-central@smellycat.com; > n_scale_stuff@onelist.com > Subject: [PRR] Alco DL109 > > Which RR's purchase the Alco DL109 and what years were they utilized? I > understand that only about 76 were produced and that the engine was an > early predecessor of the PA-1's > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Richard Biegaj Subject: RE: [PRR] Alco DL109 Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:53:30 -0600 For anyone interested in info. on the DL-109, please review the attached file. I realize it was not a model used by the PRR, but I am responding to the request for info. > -----Original Message----- > From: Gripp, William [NCSUS] [SMTP:WGRIPP@NCSUS.JNJ.COM] > Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 11:50 AM > To: n@onelist.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com; penn-central@smellycat.com; > n_scale_stuff@onelist.com; 'Vincent Troia' > Subject: RE: [PRR] Alco DL109 > > If my memory is correct, something like 60 of them were purchased by the > New > Haven. The rest were bought in small quantities by a handfull of other > roads. The GM&O comes to mind, can't remember who else. > > Bill Gripp > wgripp@ncsus.jnj.com > wgripp@prius.jnj.com > > > ---------- > > From: Vincent Troia[SMTP:troiaeye@geocities.com] > > Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 11:58 AM > > To: n@onelist.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com; > penn-central@smellycat.com; > > n_scale_stuff@onelist.com > > Subject: [PRR] Alco DL109 > > > > Which RR's purchase the Alco DL109 and what years were they utilized? I > > understand that only about 76 were produced and that the engine was an > > early predecessor of the PA-1's > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Semi-TAN: HUGE Photo Enlargement Capabilty Date: Fri, 29 Jan 99 15:31:46 -0500 From: Jerry My laser printer died and, at nine years old, isn't really worth fixing (due to price vs. new technology). Sooo, I had to order a new printer of some sort. The price kept rising as I added options that I needed...ethernet networking, true Adobe PostScript, etc. Before I knew it, I was already at $1K. Then I took a close look at color inkjets. I finally decided upon an Epson Stylus 3000. My investment is roughly $1300. (I looked at ALPS, but they didn't support large formats and are hard to cross-platform network. But they do print in white!) The Epson unit prints photo-quality images at up to 1440dpi by 720dpi to plain paper as well as glossy photo paper. The output is amazing. A big plus is that it is large format, meaning that it can take well larger than 11" by 17" spreads commonly used in desktop publishing. In fact, I can print up to 17" by 196"!!! (Of course, that takes a huge hard drive, but I've got that.) If you can think of any uses for this output that relate to railroading, let me know. I will be looking for ways to recoup my investment! My one use will be for backdrops for model railroads. You can take a photo (new or historical) and scan it in, size and crop it as needed, perhaps edit things in or out, perform color correction, print it out, and tape it up behind your layout: voila, a custom backdrop! Taken from a snapshot, the enlargement would cause graininess in the output, but I think that would actually be desired, so viewers enjoy the backdrop but don't concentrate on it. Another thing I may do would be to scan in a lot of the PRR ads from the 1940's and 50's and reduce them, in hi-res, to HO scale billboards and posters for use on layouts. Do you think there is a market for this sort of thing? The unit should arrive early next week. Suppose the possibilities are endless. What are your ideas? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: [PRR] SEPTA towers-again Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:30:46 -0500 What NON-active towers does SEPTA have that are still in good looking condition and in easy reach? Am I correct in assuming CHESTNUT HILL(WEST), MARK, BROAD, WAYNE, and "A" are still active? What non active PRR towers do they still have standing?? Thanks in advance guys. -Josh Trower http://members.xoom.com/NEC1/Default.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Tower Razing Status? Date: Fri, 29 Jan 99 15:13:43 -0500 From: Jerry Anyone know if the wrecking ball has reached AR and MG towers yet? Last the subject was discussed, Conrail was to have these two down by March. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Laird, Bill" Subject: RE: [PRR] Semi-TAN: HUGE Photo Enlargement Capabilty Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 15:50:16 -0600 Jerry wrote: >> My laser printer died and, at nine years old, isn't really worth fixing (due to price vs. new technology). Sooo, I had to order a new printer of some sort. > The unit should arrive early next week. Suppose the possibilities are > endless. What are your ideas? << > Check out Evans Designs at www.modelgraphics.com They offer two software products aimed at model railroading and color printers. "Transfer Station" lets you size to scale and print road signs, vintage billboards, service station signs, full sheets of stone work, bricks (with or without window frames) and more. "Graphics Depot" creates window treatments (signs, logos, curtains, shades, silhouettes, etc.) printed on clear acetate to fill structure windows or passenger car or trolley windows. BTW if they offer dealer pricing, these would be good additions to the "Merchandise Service" product line. Bill Laird > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 18:17:34 -0500 From: DDembinski Subject: Re: [PRR] Semi-TAN: HUGE Photo Enlargement Capabilty How about near-full-size reproductions of some of the large ads that used to hang in depots? A 17" x 28"(?) PRR ad could be quite impressive. I suspect that you don't have a scanner this big, but a number of image editing applications let you "stitch" scanned images together. Or, you could get a roll of decal paper and print decals for full-size equipment. : ) Jerry wrote: > My laser printer died and, at nine years old, isn't really worth fixing > (due to price vs. new technology). Sooo, I had to order a new printer of > some sort. The price kept rising as I added options that I > needed...ethernet networking, true Adobe PostScript, etc. Before I knew > it, I was already at $1K. Then I took a close look at color inkjets. I > finally decided upon an Epson Stylus 3000. My investment is roughly > $1300. (I looked at ALPS, but they didn't support large formats and are > hard to cross-platform network. But they do print in white!) > > The Epson unit prints photo-quality images at up to 1440dpi by 720dpi to > plain paper as well as glossy photo paper. The output is amazing. A big > plus is that it is large format, meaning that it can take well larger > than 11" by 17" spreads commonly used in desktop publishing. In fact, I > can print up to 17" by 196"!!! (Of course, that takes a huge hard drive, > but I've got that.) > > If you can think of any uses for this output that relate to railroading, > let me know. I will be looking for ways to recoup my investment! > > My one use will be for backdrops for model railroads. You can take a > photo (new or historical) and scan it in, size and crop it as needed, > perhaps edit things in or out, perform color correction, print it out, > and tape it up behind your layout: voila, a custom backdrop! > > Taken from a snapshot, the enlargement would cause graininess in the > output, but I think that would actually be desired, so viewers enjoy the > backdrop but don't concentrate on it. > > Another thing I may do would be to scan in a lot of the PRR ads from the > 1940's and 50's and reduce them, in hi-res, to HO scale billboards and > posters for use on layouts. Do you think there is a market for this sort > of thing? > > The unit should arrive early next week. Suppose the possibilities are > endless. What are your ideas? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Member, PRRT&HS > Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. > Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! > The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:57:48 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco DL109 Bill and folks, Non-Pennsy or not, the DL109 was a classic of the early diesil era. I'm not sure but what the Rock Island units were actually DL105 (?) models, but I sure can't tell the difference. I used to see one such unit in Minneapolis very frequently, idling at the Milwaukee road depot. Washington Avenue, a main drag, was right along track one, and only an iron fence separated the sidewalk from the trains. That big Alco was often mu'ed with e units (once in a while with an E6-there was a sight!) and sometimes even with a BL2. Nice engines, to be sure. By the way, wasn't the New Haven's "cranberry" used on Cape Cod trains? Another sight to have seen. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 29 Jan 99 16:24:37 EST From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re[2]: [PRR] Alco DL109 Wasn't a Demo DL109 on the NYC and the PRR for a short, short time? Note: I am not confusing this with the EMD Talgo train of the 1950's. I remember seeing a photo of DL109 at least on the NYC in the early '40's. Ted Andrews ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco DL109 Author: LINESWEST@aol.com at Internet Date: 1/29/99 3:40 PM In a message dated 1/29/99 1:54:11 PM SA Pacific Standard Time, WGRIPP@NCSUS.JNJ.COM writes: << If my memory is correct, something like 60 of them were purchased by the New Haven. The rest were bought in small quantities by a handful of other roads. The GM&O comes to mind, can't remember who else. >> I believe I've seen shots of them in a classic Santa Fe war bonnet and in Rock Island livery. I have a model Railroader with a story about the DL-109 but I can''t find it. Its a pretty engine, not as pretty as a T1 but close. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:59:02 EST Subject: [PRR] The PRR Lines West Fans Fest April 10 & 11, Xenia Ohio Its called the Pennsylvania RR Lines West Fans Fest and its set for April 10 at the Greene County Historical Society's Carriage House Museum in Xenia on the Columbus and Xenia branch for you Peers There will be presentations on the Panhandle, the Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis RR, the Erie and Pittsburgh branch, historically accurate modeling. The Carriage House Museum's most popular attraction is the Operating Diorama of Xenia's Railroads, 1920s to 1950s, an operating HO layout showing a historically accurate but spatially compressed representation of the Pennsylvania tracks, depots, towers, and service facilities in Xenia and its crossing and interchange with the Baltimore & Ohio RR's Wellston subdivision which is also fully operational. I've been told there will be displays by the Cincinnati Division PRR Modelers and by the Grand Rapids & Indiana Historical Society. I'll be putting together a photo display of historical Pennsy photos focused on Southwest Ohio, the preservation of an NX23 cabin car in Urbana, Ohio, and on the extensive network of bike paths now serving Southwest Ohio utilizing Conrail-abandoned PRR right of ways. Jerry Jordak's giving a presentation on the PC in Cleveland on the ninth. If it can be tailored to the PRR minded, I'm encouraging him to give it in Xenia on the 10th. There will a special run of the Turtle Creek Valley Railway passenger excursion April 1 over the Cincinnati, Lebanon & Northern, the PRR's Lebanon & Middletown branches. It will depart from the TCVRW depot at 3 p.m. Sunday, April 11. Fare of $10 a head is not included with the $10 admission to the Saturday session. I'm hoping to be able to offer a premium packed of a PRR Lines West hat and patch and one or two books on the PRR or railroads in Greene County. I'm in the process of compiling a simple text guide to spots of PRR Interest in the Central Ohio and South West Ohio. I'm expecting final word on special lodging rates early next week, stay tuned. I'm also planning to contact vendors with special intrusit in PRR to attend. I hope you can make it. Xenia is 16 miles SE of Dayton on the Dayton, Xenia & Belpre RR, now the Creeksaide Trail pike path linking Dayton & Xenia. Take US 35 east from Interstate 75 in Dayton or US 35 West from Interstate 71 in Jeffersonville, US 68 south from Interstate 70 in Springfield, US 68 north from Interstate 71 in Clinton County or US 42 north from Lebanon in Warren County (US 42 is mostly four-lane divided Highway for the 25 miles from Lebanon to Xenia. It's a shorter drive than US 68 for those coming from the south and an easier drive than the narrow two-lane on US 68. Take the Ohio 48 north exit off of I-71 and follow the Lebanon bypass until it deadends into US 42 north of Lebanon, turn right.) The carriage House Museum is on block west of US 68 two block north of its intersection with the US 35 business loop in front of the Greene County Court House. Sorry, got a little carried away but I had to write these directions sometime. If they're incomprehensible, please let me know. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:43:58 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] The Cranberry The Cranberry was the name given to a pair of NH express commuter trains running between Hyannis and Boston (No 760 northbound and No 769 southbound). The Woods Hole connections were Nos 790 and 799. The train did not stop between Boston and Wareham, and was the first to skip the stop in Barnstable. FWIW, two other named Boston-Cape Cod trains were "The Sand Dune," a Saturday afternoon southbound and Sunday night northbound train, and "The Buttermilk Bay," an RDC set that came down late morning, arriving Hyannis about 11:40 AM and leaving again at about 12:20 PM. While the latter train did not begin operation until the advent of the RDC cars, all three were still in the timetable in 1954. Only one engine, 0722, received the Cranberry paint scheme. Not only was it a sight to see, the turbocharger whistle of all the 109's was unforgettable. Steve Bartlett BPX29@aol.com wrote: > .............. > By the way, wasn't the New Haven's "cranberry" used on Cape Cod trains? > Another sight to have seen. Regards, > Barry Peltier > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 00:13:02 EST Subject: [PRR] Alco DL109 In a message dated 1/29/99 12:54:11 PM Central Standard Time, WGRIPP@NCSUS.JNJ.COM writes: << If my memory is correct, something like 60 of them were purchased by the New Haven. The rest were bought in small quantities by a handfull of other roads. The GM&O comes to mind, can't remember who else. >> Add Sante Fe, Milwaukee Road, Rock Island, and C&NW (one). May still be missing another railroad, but can't think of one now. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 00:20:38 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Semi-TAN: HUGE Photo Enlargement Capabilty In a message dated 1/29/99 2:44:13 PM Central Standard Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << Another thing I may do would be to scan in a lot of the PRR ads from the 1940's and 50's and reduce them, in hi-res, to HO scale billboards and posters for use on layouts. Do you think there is a market for this sort of thing? >> One of the JL Innovative Designbillboards features a Pennsy passenger train ad of about 1950. In my box of things to build. I might pop for another one for a building ad. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 00:57:05 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] Re: DL109s - 01/30/99 >If my memory is correct, something like 60 of them were purchased by the New >Haven. The rest were bought in small quantities by a handfull of other >roads. The GM&O comes to mind, can't remember who else. > > Bill Gripp ===== Milwaukee had a pair, Southern had a few, as did Seaboard (I think). Santa Fe had one "Fast 15" which proved unsuccessful. I think UP may have had a few, or at least looked at the demonstrators. Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 00:57:05 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] Re: DL109s - 01/30/99 >If my memory is correct, something like 60 of them were purchased by the New >Haven. The rest were bought in small quantities by a handfull of other >roads. The GM&O comes to mind, can't remember who else. > > Bill Gripp ===== Milwaukee had a pair, Southern had a few, as did Seaboard (I think). Santa Fe had one "Fast 15" which proved unsuccessful. I think UP may have had a few, or at least looked at the demonstrators. Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: [PRR] hudson, dock, and fair Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 15:30:04 -0500 Are HUDSON, DOCK, and FAIR towers still active/manned? -Josh http://members.xoom.com/NEC1/Default.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Homesignal@aol.com Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 15:13:12 EST Subject: [PRR] "Holmes" or "HG" and Bustleton Branch Some questions for the group, if anybody knows.... Where might one find information on the PRR Bustleton Branch? I understand it once had passenger service, but can't determine if such service began and ended at Holmesburg Junction or went through to Broad Street Station. Additionally, I'm looking for information on "HG" or "Holmes", the tower that was there until 1947 or so when it was rebuilt and moved to the other side of the tracks, surviving as a block station until being absorbed into CETC in 11/92. The post-1947 "Holmes" had a US&S Model 14 31 or 32 lever frame. I can find nothing on the pre-1947 installation. I'm curious to find out why they relocated the block station, and if they used the same machine. Thanks, gang! Chris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 15:41:42 EST Subject: [PRR] Official guide content question Hey gize, I got my steal of the year of 1999 when I found a copy of a 1943 Official Guide to the Railways in a used book store for $7.50. As I'm finally building the Panhandle Springfield branch, I'm beginning to research Pennsylvania Railroad operations along it. But the guide contains no information about the one daily train each way doodlebug service from Springfield to Cincinnati. Local newspapers and my collection of PRR ETTs shows that daily Springfield- Cincinnati passenger continued until September 1953. The guide does show a schedule for the two sections (sleepers) of the Cinci/Dayton/Sproingfield to Chicago varnish, The Union, which originated in Springfield and were taken nightly to Xenia where they joined two sections from Dayton for the jaunt down to Cincinnati to join the rest of the train. This service, too, was terminated in September 1853 and was replaced with a Greyhound bus which took Springfield passengers the 10 miles to the brick Pennsy depot in South Charleston. Any thoughts as to why the local daily ride isn't in the guide but The Union is? Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 10:20:39 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco DL109 From: Patrick M Egan DL109 is a term Railfans use for engines with actual model numbers from DL103 to DL110. The even numbers were B units which were owned by Santa Fe (1)and Southern (3), and may have been all DL110s. The 2 engines the same 539s used in the older Alco swithchers. The first one was CRI&P 624, which was very different in exterior details from the rest. The Hallmark set imported a lot of years ago was a model of the Santa Fe set - a window is missing on the side where the red paint would have covered it. UP / PRR / NYC had none, but I'm sure units were demonstrated, although I never heard of a DL109 demo engine unless it was what became the RI 624, which seemed to be a test bed. If the Black Gold / Black Diamonds book is right about the PRR attitude on diesels at the time, Alco probably didn't bother trying to get the Pennsy to sample one. No Dl109s were saved, although RI 623, AKA Christine (EMD repowered) was the subject of some efforts. Pat Egan (no web access) On Sat, 30 Jan 1999 00:13:02 EST Bobspf@aol.com writes: >In a message dated 1/29/99 12:54:11 PM Central Standard Time, >WGRIPP@NCSUS.JNJ.COM writes: > ><< If my memory is correct, something like 60 of them were purchased >by the >New > Haven. The rest were bought in small quantities by a handfull of >other > roads. The GM&O comes to mind, can't remember who else. > >> >Add Sante Fe, Milwaukee Road, Rock Island, and C&NW (one). May still >be >missing another railroad, but can't think of one now. > >Bob Zoeller > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on >special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ARRJERRY@aol.com Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 16:34:43 EST Subject: [PRR] Steel Mill Hi all, I realize this is slightly off topic but: I am building a Walthers Steel Mill on my Allegheny RR and would like to add "teaming ladels." Walthers kit #933-3151 is not available. Anyone have an idea where to look? Will pay up to 3 times value. Thanks, Jerry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 17:10:25 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR GP-7's My PDY-1 lists #'s 8510 & 8512 as non dynamic brake geeps. Is this correct or did P2K make a mistake on their first run of geeps? Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR GP-7's Date: Sat, 30 Jan 99 19:20:47 -0500 From: Jerry On 1/30/99 5:10 PM, CENTGA@aol.com (CENTGA@aol.com) wrote: >My PDY-1 lists #'s 8510 & 8512 as non dynamic brake geeps. Is this correct or >did P2K make a mistake on their first run of geeps? Todd Horton P2K's first release was 8508, 8510, and 8512 with dynamic brakes. In reality, only 8508 had dynamics. P2K's second release is with non-dynamic brakes. I don't have the data handy, but I don't think these are both right either. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 19:08:17 EST Subject: [PRR] Lines West engines, Crestline, 1924 I've been studying an old time book, apparently belonging to an engineer at Crestline OH named R. Cowell. Thought you might be entertained by the engines he ran between January and March of 1924: Engine number, Class 2621 L1 4259 I1 4292 I1 4303 I1 4317 I1 4385 I1 4394 I1 4399 I1 4509 I1 4510 I1 4656 I1 4657 I1 4676 I1 4685 I1 4689 I1 7095 K2 7125 H4 7127 H4 7180 H4 7233 H4 7341 B29 7405 H6A 7623 H4 7653 H4 7656 H4 7687 H4 7716 H6A 7931 N2 8196 H10 8438 H10 8476 H6A 8523 H10 8688 H10 9026 H6A 9067 H6A 9333 H4 9373 H6B 9713 L1 9721 H10 9729 H10 It appears that H10 8688 was the yard switcher at Crestline during part of this period. Mr. Cowell alsomade many trips to Mansfield, Canton, and Orrville and at least a few times to Pitcairn and to a destination abbrieviated "Sharps." Is it obvious to anyone why his destination was never Fort Wayne in this period? Wrong division? Rick Tipton Lines West of Pittsburgh ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 18:47:26 EST Subject: [PRR] NY Div Towers... ****Hudson, Dock and Union....Fair went quite awhile ago....bill**** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Timonium Show Report Date: Sat, 30 Jan 99 19:18:35 -0500 From: Jerry Timonium Show Report (cross posted to PRR-Talk and MerchandiseAnnounce) Was in Timonium today, ran into Neil Campbell and Dave Wartell. Saw the "Paoli Local" NTrak module which belongs to one of our subscribers. More layouts than ever before! Was nice! MODEL RAILROAD STONEWORKS -- Saw their high arch bridge. Decent, but not as "glorious" as their skewed arch bridge...even though the arch portion is largely the same...just higher piers to raise it. Part of the negative reaction was bad joints in the arches on their module display. Anyway, it's still probably the best out there...and the skewed arch bridge can't be beat. They are working on a Rockville Bridge arch, largely to meet the demand of our list's own Ken McCorry, whose huge five-level layout will be featured in MR next month. EASTERN CAR WORKS -- B60's on hand. Nice. WESTERFIELD -- Met with Al Westerfield and "Merchandise Service" is now working directly with them so we can once again supply their product. Our primary distributor doesn't carry them, and our secondary did carry them, but so poorly that they quit. So, we went several months without a supply. Now that we are dealing direct, look for a monthly special featuring Westerfield in the coming months. They have a beautiful 1898 "Pennsylvania Limited" passenger car set that is wonderful! ROBERT STRONG -- This is the guy from the PRRT&HS conventions that builds phenomenal PRR towers. We discussed him several weeks ago, but nobody has known where he went after leaving the Air Force. No, he wasn't there, but I got a very hot lead. Stay tuned for contact! All for now. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:40:14 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West engines, Crestline, 1924 Rick: It appears he was working the Eastern Division. SHARPS may be the Sharpsburg yard on the Connemaugh Division about 7 miles east of Fort Wayne Station in Pittsburgh. But it would be strange that he has no runs to Conway if he was running to SHARP. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:31:52 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR GP-7's The non-DB GP-7 are 8500-8512, 8545-8553, 8797-8806. Only 8554-8582 were delivered with DB. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR GP-7's Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:20:25 -0600 Jerry--I think P2K is getting it right with the non-dynamic GP-7's. You told us they are doing 8546 and 8549. In Pennsy Steam Years Vol. 2 on p. 44 is a photo in Wilkes Barre of 8549 and two others in 1953. On of the others is 85__; that one and 8549 clearly do not have dynamic brakes and not a torpedo tube in sight. This agrees with info in PDY-1. Based on the built dates, these are probably fresh from EMD. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:58:17 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR GP-7's In a message dated 1/30/99 8:35:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: > P2K's first release was 8508, 8510, and 8512 with dynamic brakes. In > reality, only 8508 had dynamics. > Jerry: You are correct and my previous post failed to separate out 8503-8508 with DB from the remainder of the order. Also, 8503-8507 had speed control installed. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 22:16:59 EST Subject: [PRR] NYC DL109 On 99-01-29 18:10:48 EST, Ted Andrews wrote: > Wasn't a Demo DL109 on the NYC and the PRR for a short, short time? >Note: I am not confusing this with the EMD Talgo train of the 1950's. I >remember seeing a photo of DL109 at least on the NYC in the early '40's. Possible a DL109 demo on NYC, however, none were on the NYC roster, according to William Edson's <>. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA and Niles IL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 00:13:15 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco DL109 BPX29@aol.com writes: << I'm not sure but what the Rock Island units were actually DL105 (?) models, but I sure can't tell the difference. >> Barry, I can't believe that you are the only one who realizes that the ALCO Passenger series DL were not all DL-109's and DL-110's. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 23:54:55 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: [MEMRA] Clear Coating Tips Needed (Reply) An old friend Steve Connolly wrote: ========================================================= Greg What do you mean by "scale down" ? TNX Steve Connolly ========================================================================== Steve and all, Here's one for the Moduletter. (my old clubs monthly newsletter) As we work on our models in any scale everything must "SCALE DOWN." Light hits a smaller subject differently but we must make the subject look larger but scaling down color. Bright colors need to be toned down. What is in real life dark must now be darker and what is light must seem to be lighter. It is the theatrical effect used by stage hands when they create a set. It is the basis for the shadowing and highlighting I use on my equipment. Shinny things must become duller as you need to simulate the effect of looking through more atmosphere, just as the song says "and purple mountains majesty," mountains are not purple it is the atmosphere that make then appear so. Scaling down the paint and gloss on our models is necessary, just look at the cover photo to November 1998 issue of MAINLINE MODELER. The scene fits but what does not fit are Ken Patterson's locomotives. I love SANTA FE equipment, and the DL-600 "gator's" are a particular favorite, but his units are to shinny, too clean, too static in color, too flat toned and they need more artificial color shifts and contrasting color to highlight the details. Ken's a good modeler but he does this often with his models and it shows in his photography. His details are lost in the intense light and strong natural shadows. The outside light is the best for the photograph but it hits a smaller surface differently. I'm not really trying to make this an art lesson but... Try the techniques, I have only been preaching them since 1989. Just a little sharing! Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:08:17 EST Subject: [PRR] (no subject) Can any of you gentlemen help me? I'm trying to identify locomotive numbers, construction numbers, and classes for the following: Juniata Shops 3458 K4s 4-1918 (oval builder plate) BLW K.4.s. 2-1927 59794 (PRR K4s oval builder plate) 190 keystone number plate Thanks, Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West engines, Crestline, 1924 Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:00:03 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: SUVCWORR@aol.com To: RickTipton@aol.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; MEMRA@LISTSERV.DARTMOUTH.EDU Date: Saturday, January 30, 1999 10:08 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West engines, Crestline, 1924 >Rick: > >It appears he was working the Eastern Division. SHARPS may be the Sharpsburg >yard on the Connemaugh Division about 7 miles east of Fort Wayne Station in >Pittsburgh. But it would be strange that he has no runs to Conway if he was >running to SHARP. I agree, the most logical conclusion is that Sharps = Sharpsburgh, on the Conemaugh Division Main Line.There were a fair amount of trains that originated and terminated at Sharpsburg yard which was located between Sharpsburg and Aspenwall. Many of those trains did not pick up and set off at Conway but did work at Island Avenue. But your right if he was working the Eastern Division you would have thought some trips would have been to Conway. In the 1930s Conway was a terminal for trains operating to and from: Akron, Mingo Jct., Cleveland, Canton, Erie, Orville, Niles and Crestline as well as the other yards around Pittsburgh ( Scully, 43rd St., Pitcarin and Shire Oaks) Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:40:48 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: ATSF - Modeling stainless steel To All, Jim Fuhrman forward this to me from the ATSF list. I agree that foil is really not a very realistic option when trying to duplicate stainless steal. But if you look at stainless steal and the model paints available, you will find a color called Stainless steal from Testors at the Model Master "Military" colors and in the "baby" bottles a color called steal. I encourage you all to compare what metallic colors available. Try these when you are simulating stainless steal. Stainless steal is a funny color, it does not shine like chrome, it refracts light and does not create a mirror like finish. It also has no "blue tint" it actually has a "brown tint" when compared to Aluminum or chrome. If you wish to use a true "sliver" or "chrome" or even "aluminum" as a top coat for simulating stainless steal, then try an undercoat of brown or dark red oxide and spray the top coat over the undercoat a little lighter and a bit transparent, if you will, allowing the undercoat to effect the top coats color. If you are fortunate enough to have a stainless steal sink, go look at the color, there is no mirror like finish and it has a brown tint not blue. Color and shine has to scale down in any Scale, what works in real life is not true to form in scale. Try this on your next passenger car or locomotive. Greg Martin < Thompson, John A wrote: > > I've been interested to hear how modelers are trying to achieve the look of stainless steel that some (but not all) Santa Fe passenger diesels had. I've been so used to plastic diesels and passenger cars being factory-painted with silver paint that I've never worried too much about it before now. > > I'm wondering if there are any simpler methods than applying Bare Metal Foil and then having to re-decal the sides of a factory-painted engine. Could it be that some sort of glossy overspray (maybe with a tint of blue) on top of the silver paint would serve to achieve some appearance of a more reflective, stainless steel-like surface, at least when compared to regular silver paint? I haven't tried this, I'm just wondering if anyone has. > > John Thompson >>Hi John, We have a custom painter in Ft Worth (Chuck Brown) doing exactly that -- he mixes satin finish with just enough blue to create a tint, and then masks the side to shoot just the parts that would have been stainless. The effect is quite good, and a lot less challenging than using foil! He recently did a set of ATSF warbonnet FT's, and they look good. Norm Bruce Fort Worth >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 12:19:41 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Back issues of Keystone From: locoshop@juno.com Hello all, I was wondering if your can order backissues of the Keystone without being a member of PRRT&HS? Just curious, I am thinking of joining but will not be able to for a month or so and I really need to get a copy of the old issue with the review article on the GHQ L1 conversion kit ASAP. Thanks for any help. Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:10:36 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] (no subject) In a message dated 1/31/99 11:58:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: > > Juanita Shops 3458 K4s 4-1918 (oval builder plate) > BLW K.4.s. 2-1927 59794 (PRR K4s oval builder plate) > 190 keystone number plate > Rick 190 is a N1s K4s construction # 59794 is road number 5412 constructed 2/1927 by BLW dropped from roster 2/56 K4s construction # 3458 blt Juniata shops 4/1918 is road # 1551 dropped from roster 2/54 Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:45:25 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: ATSF - Modeling stainless steel From: Patrick M Egan Careful here: Stainless Steel cars can have a mirror finish and often did, especially on the Santa Fe and the Burlington. It was the practice on those roads to regularly buff the surface of the cars, which maintained the original mirror finish. I think the blue tint is an attempt to give the effect of sky reflection. The brownish color you refer to occurs when the buffing is not done, and is generally referred to as rust. Stainless rusts, but very slowly. I have seen some Penn Central cars that by the arrival of Amtrak had achieved a color about three quarters of the way to rust brown. Your stainless sink, if you got good advice when you ordered it, has a brushed finish, as do most new stainless passenger cars. The brushed finish does not readily show surface flaws, and can be refinished. If your sink has a mirror finish, it will show every dent and scratch. Your wife will remind you of it every time she looks at it, and eventually tell you to have it replaced. Pat Egan On Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:40:48 EST TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes: >To All, >Jim Fuhrman forward this to me from the ATSF list. I agree that foil >is >really not a very realistic option when trying to duplicate stainless >steal. >But if you look at stainless steal and the model paints available, you >will >find a color called Stainless steal from Testors at the Model Master >"Military" colors and in the "baby" bottles a color called steal. I >encourage >you all to compare what metallic colors available. Try these when you >are >simulating stainless steal. Stainless steal is a funny color, it does >not >shine like chrome, it refracts light and does not create a mirror like >finish. >It also has no "blue tint" it actually has a "brown tint" when >compared to >Aluminum or chrome. If you wish to use a true "sliver" or "chrome" or >even >"aluminum" as a top coat for simulating stainless steal, then try an >undercoat >of brown or dark red oxide and spray the top coat over the undercoat a >little >lighter and a bit transparent, if you will, allowing the undercoat to >effect >the top coats color. If you are fortunate enough to have a stainless >steal >sink, go look at the color, there is no mirror like finish and it has >a brown >tint not blue. Color and shine has to scale down in any Scale, what >works in >real life is not true to form in scale. Try this on your next >passenger car >or locomotive. > >Greg Martin > >< Thompson, John A wrote: > > > > I've been interested to hear how modelers are trying to achieve the >look of >stainless steel that some (but not all) Santa Fe passenger diesels >had. I've >been so used to plastic diesels and passenger cars being >factory-painted with >silver paint that I've never worried too much about it before now. > > > > I'm wondering if there are any simpler methods than applying Bare >Metal >Foil and then having to re-decal the sides of a factory-painted >engine. Could >it be that some sort of glossy overspray (maybe with a tint of blue) >on top of >the silver paint would serve to achieve some appearance of a more >reflective, >stainless steel-like surface, at least when compared to regular silver >paint? >I haven't tried this, I'm just wondering if anyone has. > > > > John Thompson > > >>Hi John, > > We have a custom painter in Ft Worth (Chuck Brown) doing exactly that > -- > he mixes satin finish with just enough blue to create a tint, and >then > masks the side to shoot just the parts that would have been >stainless. > The effect is quite good, and a lot less challenging than using foil! > He > recently did a set of ATSF warbonnet FT's, and they look good. > > Norm Bruce > Fort Worth > >> > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on >special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:58:15 EST Subject: [PRR] ID'ing PRR #7133 Hi Gang, Can someone identify PRR Steam # 7133. Two photos that I have by Al Staufer both indicate that 7133 is a K4. However, if it is, it is the first K4 that I have ever seen with the positions of the bell and sand dome reversed (as they are on the K3). Any other particulars anyone might possess on this engine would greatly appreciated. Thanks, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Back issues of Keystone Date: Sun, 31 Jan 99 16:47:27 -0500 From: Jerry On 1/31/99 1:19 PM, locoshop@juno.com (locoshop@juno.com) wrote: >I was wondering if your can order backissues of the Keystone without >being a member of PRRT&HS? Just curious, I am thinking of joining but >will not be able to for a month or so and I really need to get a copy of >the old issue with the review article on the GHQ L1 conversion kit ASAP. >Thanks for any help. Yes, you can. I did so before joining. I was so impressed, I joined immediately! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] ID'ing PRR #7133 Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:15:14 -0600 George--7133 is definitely a K4. See Pennsy Steam Years Vol 2, pp. 23 and 35, but I can't tell you why or when the sand dome and bell positions were reversed. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL -----Original Message----- From: Eichhorn@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Sunday, January 31, 1999 7:10 PM Subject: [PRR] ID'ing PRR #7133 >Hi Gang, > >Can someone identify PRR Steam # 7133. Two photos that I have by Al Staufer >both indicate that 7133 is a K4. However, if it is, it is the first K4 that I >have ever seen with the positions of the bell and sand dome reversed (as they >are on the K3). Any other particulars anyone might possess on this engine >would greatly appreciated. > >Thanks, > >George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:24:39 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] ID'ing PRR #7133 Howdy All: According to the MP 229 of 11/1/44 the 7133 was a K4s with whistle and acknowledger, assigned to the Central Region, Eastern Ohio Division, Eastern Division. cos Eichhorn@aol.com wrote: > Hi Gang, > > Can someone identify PRR Steam # 7133. Two photos that I have by Al Staufer > both indicate that 7133 is a K4. However, if it is, it is the first K4 that I > have ever seen with the positions of the bell and sand dome reversed (as they > are on the K3). Any other particulars anyone might possess on this engine > would greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > > George > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on > special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:27:41 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: ATSF - Modeling stainless steel In a message dated 1/31/99 3:56:15 PM SA Pacific Standard Time, TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes: << Stainless steal is a funny color, >> Ahem, Greg, you've awakened the grammar police. Stainless steal is the goal of a fastidious thief. Stainless steell is something you can model. What about the systems using metal foil? Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:07:03 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: [PRR] Old HO F3 by Globe I have for bid at e-bay an old HO F3 loco by Globe with the original front trucks gear driven by the original motor. Molded in Tuscan with the cat's whiskers. Might be an interesting piece of model railroading history for somebody. There are two more day to bid and I haven't had any bids yet...... Cheers, Roger Elliott ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" has Red Caboose on special during January. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!!