Subject: [PRR] Liberty Model Productions - Financial Default Date: Sun, 1 Nov 98 15:29:34 -0500 From: Jerry This is to serve notice to "PRR-Talk" subscribers who might have current interests in, or future interests in Liberty Model Productions. Liberty Model Productions and Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania had an agreement whereby Desktop Solutions traded their services (web site editing) for Liberty Model Productions products (K5, streamlined K4, etc.). It was also agreed on that if LMP did not bring products to market in a timely manner that DS could call in the debt in cash. As you all know, LMP has done very little towards bringing any of these products to market. In August, we offered to allow LMP to fulfill a portion of the obligation to us by sending us a Bowser T1 kit. The claimed to have ordered it, but it has never shown. I even brought it to Mr. Zappa's attention that he could have purchased one via mail order for under $150 and sent it to us to fulfill $200 worth of debt (list price). He still failed to do so. Mr. Zappa was given the deadline of Oct. 31 to meet his obligation, in full, or face legal consequence. He was again reminded last week. Here was his response: ---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ---------------- Date: 10/26 5:03 PM Received: 10/27 6:17 AM From: Liberty, liberty@infonline.net To: jbritton@dsop.com Jerry, No problem. I will ensure that we get payment in full to you before the 31st. Thanks, Joe Z. ---------- > From: Jerry Britton > To: Joe Zappa > Cc: jbritton@dsop.com > Subject: End of Month Nears > Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 4:02 PM > > Joe: > > Just a friendly reminder that the end of the month nears. To avoid any > hassles, legal and otherwise, please mail your full payment to arrive to > me by October 31, using overnight mail, if necessary. > > I am hopefull that your business will recover from your current situation > and will allow you to promote your products successfully at future > PRRT&HS conventions. ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- No form of payment has arrived through and including Oct. 31. All papers concerning the matter have been forwarded to our attorney. Every piece of e-mail ever sent to us by LMP is included, including the entire financial arrangement. Because the total amount is just under $500, it qualifies for small claims court. Mr. Zappa will be summoned to appear in York County Court. If he does not show, he will lose the case (although I fully expect him to lose anyway). If he then does not pay, he will be found in contempt of court and a warrant issued for his arrest. (This information was provided by my attorney.) I have given Mr. Zappa more than enough leeway. However, he's going to learn that once I start a battle, I take no prisoners! Since he offers detail products to many types of hobbies, I will be forwarding an accounting of his business practices to all major modeling periodicals. I will also be notifying the Pennsylvania Fish and Game Commission, for whom he (supposedly) has a major contract with to produce a "fish stocking" car. Although I suspect that this contract has already met with problems. Okay, enough of my rant, now others (and I know you are out there) can share your exciting experiences with LMP. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Liberty Model Productions - Financial Default Date: Sun, 1 Nov 98 18:15:15 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/1/98 3:29 PM, Jerry (jerry@dsop.com) wrote: >This is to serve notice to "PRR-Talk" subscribers who might have current >interests in, or future interests in Liberty Model Productions. Forgot to mention, I took the liberty of updating his former web site to reflect that he is "in default of his financial obligations". http://liberty.dsop.com ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 17:40:18 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] 1941 Equipment Registry Hello everyone, I would like to ask the list for a bit of help if I may. I just received this message from Stanley W. Johnson, the noted author on the Milwaukee road: >Do you have access a roster of Milwaukee Olympian sleeping cars (both their >home-made tourist sleepers and their Pullman-made Standard sleeping cars) by >name circa 1941? Or, perhaps, a copy of the 1941 Equipment Registry from which >the relevant pages might be copied? > >Also I desperately need the inside pages of a Milwaukee Road Diner evening >menu from the period of 1939 to 1941. Any of the three years will do but >1941 would be my preference. I have the breakfast and the luncheon menues, >but not the dinner one. Just the data, not the menu itself is what I need. >Stan Johnson > >swjohnson@silverlink.net ===== I doubt if we can help with the Milwaukee menu, but does anyone have a 1941 Equipment Registry that they would be willing to make xeroxi of? Thanks for your help. Please contact me or Stan Johnson if you have anything. Regards, Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Renovo Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 15:52:40 -0800 Just got back from my trip to PA. I promised to get to the facts about the Renovo yards and the coaling tower there. Here they are. According to the Clinton County Economic Partnership (CCEP), they now own the entire yard. As of approximately 15 months ago they bought the east end of the yards from the man who owns the cabooses. The CCEP has signed a 10 year lease-purchase agreement with a company out of Georgia known there as Fitzgeralds Rail Company. The name will probably be different in Pa once operations begin. This company has been building cars for many railroads not strictly for Norfolk Southern who is a customer and not an affilliation. The coaling tower is in a 2-4 acre parcel slated to become a Heritage Park. This is part of the agreement. It is the intention of the CCEP to have this area preserved along with the tower. The CCEP is disappointed with the response of the local turnout at a meeting to set up this park and preserve the tower. I spoke with Wes Grand the Chief Operating Officer for the CCEP. He was concerned that I was from a historical group that might try to interfere with their plans for the yards; but, once I allieviated that fear, he was quite forthcomming with information. In the same breath he said, " if its jobs or historical preservation, jobs come first" then he told me the intentions with the tower and the Heritage Park. He went on to describe a plan to move the old hump weight house to the tower area in the Heritage Park. "It shouldn't cost much, around $30-35,000" he said. Sounds like a commitment to preservation to me! The X29 boxcar is now owned by the CCEP and is to eventually be preserved in the park also. The cabooses, approximately 20-30, that are still there are to be removed by the owner. He had 30 months from the signing to remove them. That gives him about 15 months. I heard he was taking them out by truck. Possibly last chance for anyone interested. I know some are Lehigh Valley, possibly a Reading, many seem to be New Haven. There are others I have doubts about posssibly Erie/Lackawanna vintage. There are three PRR N5s left. Also there is a heavyweight PRR in MOW yellow still on the grounds, as well as a NYC heavyweight. I believe an old pullman car. Don't quote me on that. That is enough for now. Greg Stone member PRRT&HS Interest in Renovo ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 19:35:38 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Liberty Models Hello guys.... I'm sorry to hear what is going on with Joe Zappa..... I had hoped that this would'nt go the way of "Nova Tech" in its turn out..... Joe still can do something about all of this ...but its mainly up to him.... Joe has some models of mine that i would like to get back.... Some samples i sent him. I had made the K-5 prototype and finished it and the N-8 as well....Like i've said before...I still hope something gets worked out either way. I can only hope i get them back. The K-5 and N-8 are his property and he can do with them as he wishes. Joe if you get to read this...there are many who are upset with you. Please...if you can't produce these models....give Miracle a shot... It might help you out.... I can only hope all the best for all concerned...I really hate to see things like this happen....but Joe has said many things and made many promises...I feel his biggest short coming was not keeping us all up to date on what is happening and why...this is not to say that he has to tell us what is going on with him in his personal life... But it does look bad when you keep quiet about things and keep folks hanging.... Well all thats my two cents on this....I don't want to discredit Joe on any honest effort he still might be tring to make. But as i said the ball is in his court. Til Later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Liberty Models Date: Sun, 1 Nov 98 20:38:59 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/1/98 7:35 PM, Hank Mummert (bubbles@visi.net) wrote: > Joe still can do something about all of this ...but its mainly > up to him.... > Joe has some models of mine that i would like to get back.... > Some samples i sent him. I had made the K-5 prototype and finished it > and the N-8 as well....Like i've said before...I still hope something > gets worked out either way. I can only hope i get them back. > The K-5 and N-8 are his property and he can do with them as he wishes. Hank, if you made the prototypes, would they not be your "intellectual property"? Or did Joe pay you for the work? ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Liberty's Web Site Date: Sun, 1 Nov 98 20:44:16 -0500 From: Jerry It was brought to my attention tonight that Liberty Model Productions already has a new web site up and running, via Kevin Tulley's server. Actually, this I knew. It was brought to my attention over two months ago while it was under development. I asked Joe about it, and he said he would be switching to his new site after a while, he had an "inside person" that wanted to maintain it. We agreed on October 31 as his cutoff date. This was close enough to our contracted "60 day notice" so I was happy, and his web hosting fees are paid up. So, in this one respect, Joe Zappa HAS met his financial obligations. I chose to leave his old site up after Oct. 31, free of charge, because the world is bookmarked to it as are all of the search engines and I can now use it as a conduit to spread the good word about Mr. Zappa's venture. ;-) http://liberty.dsop.com Kevin Tulley's web site, I think you will find, is excrutiatingly slow...even by my standards! I believe Kevin got involved with Joe by supplying masters for the American Steel series (one car!) that Liberty is hawking. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 22:22:43 EST Subject: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 Has anyone laid eyes on this yet? I'm curious as to what drive, trucks, etc are they using? Will they be correct or are they using a modified commercial drive system? What about the body casting? Maybe someone can give us a product review. Also has anyone had any trouble contacting Jerry's web site? I can't seem to get it come up. Todd Horton ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Re: [PRR] Liberty's Web Site Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 20:00:10 PST To all on the PRR-Talk list, I have recieved several posts on Joe Zappa's site and business via this mailing list. Being good friends with Joe, and as most of you are on at least speaking terms with Joe, I would like to make a few comments, and will include exerpts from this letter: >It was brought to my attention tonight that Liberty Model Productions already has a new web site up and running, via Kevin Tulley's server.< Yes, this is true. Joe and I have been working on the site for about two months now. And since we are "laying it all out", the request came not just from Joe, but from SEVERAL emails sent to Joe reguarding the consistancy of NOT BEING ABLE TO ACCESS LMP'S WEB SITE. As Joe new that my site was tied into Aims Inc., a LARGE internet provider and company specializing in Web Design and systems (which also has a DIRECT FEED to a fiber optic system), and the FACT that people can ALWAYS access my site with a SHORT DURATION download time, he felt this was the best way to go. >It was brought to my attention over two months ago while it was under development. I asked Joe about it, and he said he would be switching to his new site after a while, he had an "inside person" that wanted to maintain it. We agreed on October 31 as his cutoff date. This was close enough to our contracted "60 day notice" so I was happy, and his web hosting fees are paid up. So, in this one respect, Joe Zappa HAS met his financial obligations.< This is also true. I am the "inside person", as I now work directly for LMP as their Model Railroad Project and Selection Manager. Why not have someone that works for the company also maintain the web site? Why subcontract if you don't have to? >I chose to leave his old site up after Oct. 31, free of charge, because the world is bookmarked to it as are all of the search engines and I can now use it as a conduit to spread the good word about Mr. Zappa's venture. ;-) http://liberty.dsop.com< >Kevin Tulley's web site, I think you will find, is excrutiatingly slow...even by my standards! I believe Kevin got involved with Joe by supplying masters for the American Steel series (one car!) that Liberty is hawking.< I find the statement above to be in poor taste. As far as my site being slow, I've had several people around the country time how long it takes to download the main page. One of which was in Rockhill Furnace, PA and one in Anchorage, AK. Both said less than 45 seconds. I have timed Mr. Bretons site at 1.50 minutes. Given that the PRR site has many advertisements and graphics, I don't think this is "excrutiatingly slow", but it could be a little quicker. As for the American Steel series, true, only one car has been released and is in production, but two more are in the molds now. We (LMP and myself) aren't Athearn or Accurail, but if you talk to anyone who knows anything about those companies, they'll tell you that any item to be released doesn't just happen over night. We went from idea to production on the Ingot Mold Car in three months. Not bad for a "cottage industry". As for the comment about the N8, it's in line for molding, and should be on the shelves in the spring. As many of you may know, Joe is going through a divorce. I'm sure there are more than just a few of you on this group who have been through one, myself included. I'd like you all to think about what goes on during a divorce, and give Joe a break. He could use our support about now, rather than our grief. I know Joe very well, and if he told Jerry that the check was in the mail, it damn well was. With a popular page like the Keystone Crossings, I would think Jerry would have a little more couth than to "jump the gun" and start talking about winning a case and Joe getting arrested. "Barracks lawyers" comments are not needed or do they belong on this mailing list. One last thing, and this is for Jerry, IF YOU HAVE ANY PROBLEMS WITH ME, CALL ME AND WE'LL MEET SOMEWHERE AND SOLVE THEM LIKE MEN. EATHER THROUGH CONVERSATION LIKE MATURE ADULTS, OR BY WHATEVER MEANS YOU DEEM NECESSARY. 'Nuff said. Lets all remember that this is a hobby or past time for us, and we're supposed to be having fun and fellowship, not knifing eachother in the back. Kevin Tully Model Railroader. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 Date: Mon, 2 Nov 98 06:18:25 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/1/98 10:22 PM, CENTGA@aol.com (CENTGA@aol.com) wrote: >Has anyone laid eyes on this yet? I'm curious as to what drive, trucks, etc >are they using? Will they be correct or are they using a modified commercial >drive system? >What about the body casting? Maybe someone can give us a product review. Also >has anyone had any trouble contacting Jerry's web site? I can't seem to >get it >come up. Todd Horton 1. Yes, I've laid eyes on one and still have it. A review of the work was done on the list a month ago. Check the archives. 2. They don't use any drive, trucks, etc., because it is a "shell" product. Although they recommend an Athearn PA mechanism, several folks plan to use P2K mechanisms. 3. My web site had trouble between 10/28-31. I installed a new rev (beta) of the server software and it caused lockups. On the 31st I installed a new beta rev. Problem persisted. Late on the 31st I downgraded to the previous final release. Should be working fine now. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 06:48:10 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 On Sun, 1 Nov 1998 CENTGA@aol.com wrote: > Has anyone laid eyes on this yet? I'm curious as to what drive, trucks, etc > are they using? Will they be correct or are they using a modified commercial > drive system? > What about the body casting? Maybe someone can give us a product review. Also > has anyone had any trouble contacting Jerry's web site? I can't seem to get it > come up. Todd Horton Hit the archives; Both Jerry and i already reviewed it -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: TAN Re: [PRR] Liberty's Web Site Date: Mon, 2 Nov 98 06:27:31 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/1/98 11:00 PM, Kevin Tully (t1duplex@hotmail.com) wrote: > I'd like you all to think about what goes >on during a divorce, and give Joe a break. He could use our support >about now, rather than our grief. I know Joe very well, and if he told >Jerry that the check was in the mail, it damn well was. I've given Joe a break since August. He owes me close to $500. I gave him options. He said he would take them (meet part of balance via T1 which he buys at wholesale). I gave him time, time, and more time. He was warned of legal action a month ago. So don't tell me I shouldn't "jump the gun", as I actually restrained others from attacking his character and business earlier in the month. I told them Joe had a 10/31 deadline with me and asked them to await that outcome. That date came and went, and this thread is the result. Let's just say, he won't work in this town (PRR) any more! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: TAN: Re: [PRR] Liberty's Web Site Date: Mon, 2 Nov 98 06:23:55 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/1/98 11:00 PM, Kevin Tully (t1duplex@hotmail.com) wrote: > One last thing, and this is for Jerry, IF YOU HAVE ANY PROBLEMS WITH >ME, CALL ME AND WE'LL MEET SOMEWHERE AND SOLVE THEM LIKE MEN. EATHER >THROUGH CONVERSATION LIKE MATURE ADULTS, OR BY WHATEVER MEANS YOU DEEM >NECESSARY. 'Nuff said. I don't have any beef with you. After all, I provided you with the PRR2000 list at no cost. I wouldn't have done that otherwise. My server is slower than desired due to my 56K connection. Your server, and others have timed it, takes over 2 minutes to load LMP page, your RR page, or the PRR2000 project page. This is true when using Navigator 4.x, IE 3x or 4x. The site I am sitting at when I try this has a 384K connection. Only thing I can think of is that I sit behind a firewall and your system doesn't like that. I do not have this problem elsewhere. In fact, my entire page with graphics fully loads faster than yours do, and yours are light on graphics! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:36:39 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: TAN: Re: [PRR] Liberty's Web Site So I have no right to ask it, but can the whole mess be taken elsewhere? If PRR-2000 has nothing to do with PRR, then certainly LMP's troubles do not. I, for one, don't care, and would rather not see any of it... -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 10:21:21 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: getting singed by the flames.... In a message dated 98-11-02 09:02:57 EST, you write: << ubj: Re: TAN: Re: [PRR] Liberty's Web Site Date: 98-11-02 09:02:57 EST From: shadow@dementia.org (Derrick J Brashear) Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com So I have no right to ask it, but can the whole mess be taken elsewhere? If PRR-2000 has nothing to do with PRR, then certainly LMP's troubles do not. I, for one, don't care, and would rather not see any of it... -D >> *****Thanks Derrick - I strongly second this...!!!! Bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Fwd: Re: [PRR] Liberty's Web Site Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 08:51:29 PST Received: from [198.81.17.1] by hotmail.com (1.0) with SMTP id MHotMail30874698002723506532495332720153714205; Mon Nov 02 06:30:07 1998 Received: from PRRSignals@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id RKVCa10440 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:28:41 -0500 (EST) From: PRRSignals@aol.com Message-ID: <8eb997e2.363dc199@aol.com> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:28:41 EST To: t1duplex@hotmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [PRR] Liberty's Web Site Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 18 *********whew....Hi, Kevin - Listen, I am an old blacksmith O scaler, now in G, so the turmoil I am forced to read about is of little interest to me, product-wise.....glad for anything that makes folks happy, whatever scale.... BUTT, I was very glad you, ummm, corrected that situation, and gave jerry a well-deserved shot. Again, don't mean no never-moind to me, butt....wrong is wrong. While I am not divorced ( yet..?? hahhaha)...I have walked several pals thru it, and I would not want to be held responsible for any petty BS I did while going thru Hell. Thanks for your moderate and fair stance......to me, lawyers are my LAST RESORT. Geesh, no patience, jump right to legal rather than human methods of working things out..... Anyway, thanks, he needed that smacking..!!!! HAHHAHAH. pLEASE HELP jz ALL YOU CAN, AS i KNOW YOU WILL (OOoops, caps lock, me pissed)... anyway, good of you....I appreciate......just to let you know you are on target with me, just another guy......Bill*** ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mdimaio@ids.net Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:04:01 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Need phone number Does any one have Kevin Tully's phone number? Michael DiMaio, Ph.D. Managing Editor, De Imperatoribus Romanis Professor of Philosophy Department of Philosophy Salve Regina University Newport, RI 02920 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jcfmmf@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:21:49 EST Subject: [PRR] Civility I have always enjoyed prr-talk because of the civility that always accompnied our disputes, and being opinionated SPF's these are inevitable. Lately the problems around Liberty have generated an unprecedented degree of acrimony. Enough, we don't need this. In addition, as an attorney, with nearly 30 years at the bar, I advise all to remember 2 things 1. Making statements that relate to another persons character and disparage him in his trade or business may be actionable, even if true, when then show him in a false light. 2. This is even more dangerous where the statement-maker is in business himself and the statement might be trade disparagement. Lets keep this to PRR items. Jerry Finefrock ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 14:08:41 EST Subject: [PRR] Questions about Panhandle in Chicago Guys, Paul Kossart asks the below question about Panhandle trackage in Chicago. Can anyone who knew Chicago well verify the Campbell's plant and other details of trackage between Ash Street Junction and Brighton Park Junction? Thanks, Rick Tipton PCC&StL/PRR Lines West Louisville, KY In a message dated 11/2/98 1:21:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, kozys@theramp.net writes: > Hi Rick, > > I > was wondering if you had any info. or sources of same on the Pensy > Panhandle Route in Chicago, specifically going past and serving Campbell > Soup's plant on 35th Street on the South side. The reason I ask is that I > grew up railfanning switching and mainline traffic behind the plant in the > middle sixties. Somebody told me once or I read that the tracks there were > the Pensy Panhandle Line but I never had any definite info on if it was or > not. I recall seeing Pensy, B&O & C&O but there were MANY tracks up there. > I was around ten to twelve years old at the time. If you could help at > all would be much appreciated if for no other reason than nostalgic. If it > helps at all, the location was between Ash Street Junction and Brighton > Park(?) Junction. > > THX . . . > Paul Kossart > kozys@theramp.net > NMRA, LDSIG, OPSIG, SigSIG, BRHS, TP&W-HS > LaSalle & Bureau County Model R.R. Club > Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Model R.R. (HO) > Illiniwek River Branch - 1969 > THINK GLOBALLY, ACT LOCALLY, DRESS CASUALLY! > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:18:17 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Liberty's Web Site From: staffsgtyork@juno.com On Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:36:39 -0500 (EST) Derrick J Brashear writes: >So I have no right to ask it, but can the whole mess be taken >elsewhere? >If PRR-2000 has nothing to do with PRR, then certainly LMP's troubles >do >not. I, for one, don't care, and would rather not see any of it... > >-D I must agree. Sincerely, David W. "SGT" York ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:51:58 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Diesel Locomotives On Sat, 24 Oct 1998, Patrick M Egan wrote: > Among other things are C-Liners and Lima Transfer Locomotives. These are > indicated as having "Trainstuff Mfg." shells and Hobbytown drive > components. > > There are a lot of questions that come to mind, but the first ones are, > who is Trainstuff, and what's the quality? > > Any body have any knowledge of this "stuff"? Word from someone whose opinion I trust is the Lima Centercab is crude; Only the rounded cab windows give it the Lima "look". That said, I have no yet seen one myself. -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TAN: LMP's New Web Address Date: Mon, 2 Nov 98 15:32:28 -0500 From: Jerry Okay, here's one more "good thing" I am doing for Joe...here's his NEW web address for those who have been asking: http://www.aimsinc.com/fm&c/Libertymodels.htm Also, I commented earlier about the slowness of the site, while admitting the slowness of my own site...the slowness seems related to the new site not dealing politely with firewalls and proxy servers. In "sniffing" packets, it seems to be trying to determine the IP of the client and/or place cookies, which the firewall is blocking. In accessing the same page from a non-protected system, the page loads in about 45 seconds. However, many graphics are missing. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:45:42 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 While I have not personally seen these a good friend of mine has. He states that they are providing side frames to fit the Athearn PA trucks which the cast frame is designed to accept. I have not checked the wheel spacing to determine if the PA is correct for the BP-20. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Re: [PRR] TAN: LMP's New Web Address Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 14:45:09 PST To everyone, To the best of my knowledge, neither my site or Aims Inc. approves of "cookies" and "spam". And, to the best of my knowledge, these types of programs are not in place concerning my site. Kevin Tully Received: from [199.224.69.130] by hotmail.com (1.0) with SMTP id MHotMail30874941023823506532501335336384286331; Mon Nov 02 13:15:53 1998 Received: from dsop.com by dsop.com (AppleShare IP Mail Server 5.0.2) id 449493 via TCP with SMTP; Mon, 02 Nov 1998 16:45:07 +0000 Received: from dsop.com by dsop.com with POP3; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:36:36 -0500 Subject: [PRR] TAN: LMP's New Web Address Date: Mon, 2 Nov 98 15:32:28 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Jerry To: "PRR-Talk" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.2 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Okay, here's one more "good thing" I am doing for Joe...here's his NEW web address for those who have been asking: http://www.aimsinc.com/fm&c/Libertymodels.htm Also, I commented earlier about the slowness of the site, while admitting the slowness of my own site...the slowness seems related to the new site not dealing politely with firewalls and proxy servers. In "sniffing" packets, it seems to be trying to determine the IP of the client and/or place cookies, which the firewall is blocking. In accessing the same page from a non-protected system, the page loads in about 45 seconds. However, many graphics are missing. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Re: [PRR] Liberty's Web Site Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 14:33:59 PST The New site address is: http://www.aimsinc.com/fm&c/Libertymodels.htm Please remember that the site is under construction, and that I am open to suggestions on making the site better. I'd also like to hear some download times, if any of you don't mind taking the time to do that. Kevin Tully Hi all, Dumb question... What's Liberty's new web address? With all the mud slung around here no one thought to mention what it was! I went to the old page, expecting maybe a link but all that's there is a broken image link and more mud.... Gotta love the professional way this whole thing is being handled! Rob To all on the PRR-Talk list, I have recieved several posts on Joe Zappa's site and business via this mailing list. Being good friends with Joe, and as most of you are on at least speaking terms with Joe, I would like to make a few comments, and will include exerpts from this letter: >It was brought to my attention tonight that Liberty Model Productions already has a new web site up and running, via Kevin Tulley's server.< Yes, this is true. Joe and I have been working on the site for about two months now. And since we are "laying it all out", the request came not just from Joe, but from SEVERAL emails sent to Joe reguarding the consistancy of NOT BEING ABLE TO ACCESS LMP'S WEB SITE. As Joe new that my site was tied into Aims Inc., a LARGE internet provider and company specializing in Web Design and systems (which also has a DIRECT FEED to a fiber optic system), and the FACT that people can ALWAYS access my site with a SHORT DURATION download time, he felt this was the best way to go. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:01:02 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Questions about Panhandle in Chicago How does the Panhandle get to Chicago? The Panhandle left Pittsburgh traversed southern Ohio, Indiana, Illinois and terminated in East St. Louis. The Fort Wayne left Pittsburgh traversed northern Ohio, Indiana, Illinois and terminated in Chicago. The north south lines in and out of Chicago where not part of the Panhandle but their own distinctive routes. All Lines west are not part of the Panhandle. INfact the Panhandle actually refers to the lines traversing the panhandle of West Virginia only, i.e., the Panhandle Division. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 19:22:38 -0500 (EST) From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Questions about Panhandle in Chicago On Mon, 2 Nov 1998 SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > How does the Panhandle get to Chicago? The Panhandle left Pittsburgh > traversed southern Ohio, Indiana, Illinois and terminated in East St. Louis. True. (Via the Vandalia Lines ...) > The Fort Wayne left Pittsburgh traversed northern Ohio, Indiana, Illinois and > terminated in Chicago. True. > The north south lines in and out of Chicago where not > part of the Panhandle but their own distinctive routes. Sorry, an overgeneralization. The lines from Columbus, Richmond, and Indianapolis, converging at Logansport, and proceeding via North Judson to Chicago were called "Panhandle" and were part of the PCC&StL, which was nicknamed "the Panhandle". > All Lines west are not part of the Panhandle. True. > INfact the Panhandle actually > refers to the lines traversing the panhandle of West Virginia Yes. > only, i.e., the Panhandle Division. No, too restrictive a definition. See above. In case there is any doubt, the _Centennial History_, p. 825 [Index], lists as an entry: PANHANDLE LINE, trade name of Pitts., Cin. & St. Louis Ry. Co. _and successors_ (italics mine). Under the latter name, a line item lists ...; consolidated to form P.C.C.&St.L. Ry. Co. (1890), 380, 509; -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 21:44:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 In a message dated 11/2/98 6:11:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, SUVCWORR@aol.com writes in part: << I have not checked the wheel spacing to determine if the PA is correct for the BP-20. >> Hi Guys, According to the "Model Railroader, Cyclopedia-Vol. 2, Diesel Locomotives" the wheel spacing (on the trucks) is the same for the PA and the BP-20 at 7' 9". They do however, have different diameter wheels. 40 inches on the PA, and 42 inches on the BP-20. (While I'm here and lookin) the wheelbase (measured from center wheel to center wheel) is 34' 2" on the PA, and 46' 3 1/2" on the BP-20. George ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 Date: Mon, 2 Nov 98 20:15:26 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/2/98 5:45 PM, SUVCWORR@aol.com (SUVCWORR@aol.com) wrote: >While I have not personally seen these a good friend of mine has. He states >that they are providing side frames to fit the Athearn PA trucks which the >cast frame is designed to accept. I have not checked the wheel spacing to >determine if the PA is correct for the BP-20. A few weeks back on the list, maybe six, someone researched and found that the trucks themselves were identical, from the same OEM. So, PA trucks on a BP20 works. Miracle provides a chassis, so all you are mounting is the power trucks, not the entire PA chassis. That takes care of the truck spacing. When discussing BP20's, please be very sure to specify Miracle Castings (if that is what you are referring to) as there are also the apparently much lower quality Sharks from Hobbytown (or whatever it was) in Boston. I don't want to see MC get a bad rep for another's work! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 22:08:22 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Questions about Panhandle in Chicago In a message dated 11/2/98 6:01:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, SUVCW ORR writes: > How does the Panhandle get to Chicago? The Panhandle left Pittsburgh > traversed southern Ohio, Indiana, Illinois and terminated in East St. Louis. > > The Fort Wayne left Pittsburgh traversed northern Ohio, Indiana, Illinois > and terminated in Chicago. The north south lines in and out of Chicago where > not part of the Panhandle but their own distinctive routes. > > All Lines west are not part of the Panhandle. INfact the Panhandle actually > refers to the lines traversing the panhandle of West Virginia only, i.e., the > Panhandle Division. > Rich, No one should argue with your observation that all Lines West are not part of the Panhandle. Certainly the Fort Wayne and the Cleveland & Pittsburgh are Lines West, but not "Lines Southwest". And I am usually the first to point out that the Panhandle's principal trains ran the route between Pittsburgh and St. Louis, as this is the routing I model. But the rest -- OUCH! I'm sorry but I don't agree -- my research says the Panhandle went to Chicago. You may not have seen a large number of previous postings on PRR-Talk and MEMRA about this subject, concerning the Panhandle in Chicago and Logansport, Chicago interlockings and surviving physical plant, and other goodies. To summarize: PRR's CHICAGO APPROACHES The Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne, and Chicago, nicknamed "The Fort Wayne", was Pennsy's most famous way into Chicago. Route of the Broadway and a host of other name trains and first class mail schedules, the Fort Wayne went into Chicago via Crestline OH, Lima, Van Wert, Fort Wayne IN, Plymouth, and Gary. It ran near the lakeshore, passed through Englewood Union Station, and headed straight north for the south end of Chicago Union Station. Less celebrated and certainly ignored by the railfan press, there was a spider's web of lines in Ohio/Indiana that were operated as part of Lines Southwest, and thus shared the nickname "the Panhandle". These lines brought PRR freight and passenger traffic to Chicago from Columbus, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Louisville, and at one time even from St. Louis. All these routes came together at a major complex of yards and shops and interlocking plants in Logansport Indiana, where the Pennsy and the Wabash crossed the Wabash River and each other. The "second" PRR mainline into Chicago left VAN tower in Logansport IN, passing through North Judson IN, crossing diamonds at Dolton IL and at least a dozen other suburban places in the Chicago area, to pass west of downtown and ultimately approach Chicago Union Station from the north, paralleling the Milwaukee Road's approach. LOGANSPORT AS PANHANDLE TRAFFIC HUB All the 7 lines out of Logansport were PCC&StL, and are so marked on various maps. As posted before, they went (naming clockwise from the north) to 1. South Bend via Plymouth IN (South Bend Branch) 2. Butler IN (Wabash connection) via Columbia City (Eel River Line) 3. Columbus OH via Bradford OH (Columbus & Indiana Central) 4. Cincinnati OH via Richmond IN (Richmond Branch) 5. Louisville KY via Frankfort and Indianapolis (I&F Branch) 6. TP&W at Effner IN (Effner Branch) 7. Chicago via North Judson, Dolton, 59th Street, Western Ave Logansport itself was once a hot spot of Pennsy activity, with 4 separate freight yards, a car shop, and (at least in the 1880s) manufacture of new locomotives for the PCC&StL. Significantly, it had a freight house much larger than usual for the size of the town. I've found very little written about Logansport, but we did some postings a while back on our onsite archaeology and some maps found; this really begs an article by someone who knows the area's history intimately. But from size of facilities, Logansport really handled some freight traffic. PANHANDLE FREIGHT AND PASSENGER SERVICE TO/FROM CHICAGO In later years, PRR passenger trains to Louisville, Cincinnati, and Columbus left CUS to the south (on the Fort Wayne main), and gained rails to Logansport via a cutoff somewhere down near Colehour Yard. This would have included the South Wind, the Kentuckian, and the Union But presumably freights on the Panhandle came out of 59th Street Yard, which previous postings have established was north and west of Englewood by some distance. WHAT'S IN A (NICK)NAME? It would be easy to become careless and apply a nickname where it doesn't belong; it is certainly worth stopping to ask if that might have happened here. It's certainly true that the original Panhandle Railroad was just a piece of the PRR-controlled line getting to the Ohio River across West Virginia. It's true that the Pittsburgh-Columbus-Indianapolis-St.Louis line (organized as the Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, and St. Louis around the time of the Civil War) was nicknamed the "Panhandle Route". And its' true that the first division on the Panhandle west of Pittsburgh was officially named the "Panhandle Division", possibly at least as far back as World War One. But when the PC&StL absorbed more companies in OH, IL, and IN, it became the Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, CHICAGO, and St. Louis, and continued to be referred to as the Panhandle. Was this true in Chicago? Yes -- I've heard and read too many resources refer to "the Panhandle" line in Chicago to believe anything else. It seems clear that people all over the former PCC&StL continued to use the nickname Panhandle ever since, and into very recent times. Therefore, when we talk about Lines West and Chicagoland, we must talk about both the "Fort Wayne" and the "Panhandle" lines into and inside the Chicago metro area. Hope this is a satisfactory explanation of our usage of "the Panhandle". As always, I welcome input on things Pennsy, especially Lines West. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 00:47:05 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Questions about Panhandle in Chicago In a message dated 11/2/98 10:38:13 PM Central Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << But when the PC&StL absorbed more companies in OH, IL, and IN, it became the Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, CHICAGO, and St. Louis, and continued to be referred to as the Panhandle. Was this true in Chicago? Yes -- I've heard and read too many resources refer to "the Panhandle" line in Chicago to believe anything else. It seems clear that people all over the former PCC&StL continued to use the nickname Panhandle ever since, and into very recent times. >> The September 1982 Keystone article on the Chicago Terminal Division referred throughout to the "Panhandle" mainline and FWIW I have frequently seen it referred to it that way in other references. The passenger trains Rick referred to left the Fort Wayne Line at Colehour Junction just West of Colehour Yard and connected to the "Panhandle" line at Bernice, Illinois, via the former South Chicago and Southern Railroad Company (SC&S), passing through Hegewisch and Calumet Park, Illinois. I believe the Pennsy's SC&S line still exists in part on Conrail, but would have to check my Conrail maps for that (wherever they might be). I wonder if that is the trackage the "bottle" train (hot metal cars) uses in part. One variance from the passenger routing, at least until a few years after WWII, was The Southland which went to Ft. Wayne before heading South through Richmond, Indiana. Thanks to Rick for a good overall description of the "other" lines around Chicago. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 00:40:19 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Liberty... Jerry, Kevin and all, Please, before you tear at each others character anymore than we have and say things that honestly I do not think that "WE PRR-Talk SPF'ers" need to hear (or read) ca you take this off-line? I realize that there may be problems in the Liberty Models Camp at the present time, but I hope you well Joe and as you get caught up with your other projects, remember I have committed some masters to you and intend on fulfilling my end. If you want me to pass them off to another source I need to hear it from you. Jerry, I realize you are upset, rightfully so. You are both business men and I think that there is an equitable compromise in the wings. And Jerry I hope you do not mean anything by the statement below. Greg Martin In a message dated 11/2/98 5:13:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << Let's just say, he won't work in this town (PRR) any more! >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Leary" Subject: RE: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 23:40:14 -0500 Hello to all, Does Miracle Castings have a web site (and if so,what is it)? If not, is their product line anywhere to be found on the web? Thank you in advance. Sincerely, Greg Leary (electronically signed) > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry > Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 8:15 PM > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 > > > On 11/2/98 5:45 PM, SUVCWORR@aol.com (SUVCWORR@aol.com) wrote: > > >While I have not personally seen these a good friend of mine > has. He states > >that they are providing side frames to fit the Athearn PA trucks > which the > >cast frame is designed to accept. I have not checked the wheel > spacing to > >determine if the PA is correct for the BP-20. > > A few weeks back on the list, maybe six, someone researched and found > that the trucks themselves were identical, from the same OEM. So, PA > trucks on a BP20 works. > > Miracle provides a chassis, so all you are mounting is the power trucks, > not the entire PA chassis. That takes care of the truck spacing. > > When discussing BP20's, please be very sure to specify Miracle Castings > (if that is what you are referring to) as there are also the apparently > much lower quality Sharks from Hobbytown (or whatever it was) in Boston. > I don't want to see MC get a bad rep for another's work! > > ----------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com > "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com > ----------------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 21:20:55 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] cloth patches Hello all, Need to ask a small favor: does someone out there have a Pennsy keystone cloth logo patch they could spare? I promised a certain 5 year old boy a choo-choo hat for Xmas, and cloth patches can't be had for love nor money here in St. Loser. (This kid lives in Pittsburg, watches Conrail go by out his bedroom window and is well and truly gaa-gaa about trains, which ought to make the Lines Westerners day) Please let me know what it will cost and I will get out to you directly. Thank you! Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Boilerbob7@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 06:00:43 EST Subject: [PRR] Re:Chicago panhandle It is difficult to explain to those not familiar with Chicago. An easily obtained publication "Carstens Great Lakes West" and "Carstens Great Lakes East" clearly shows how the passenger and freight operations were interchangend between the two lines on the south side of Chicago. Freight trains from 59th St. ran east to the "Ft Wayne" line along 59th St. It is indicated as abandanded but is still mostly intact with track. The 59th St. yard has been recently rebuilt and reopened. The line from Colehour to the panhandle was ripped up except for a short segment through the Hegewisch area which is used by "bottle trains" on the IHB. The Amtrak trains using that section have been rerouted over the UP to a new interchange installed a few years ago Bob Leffingwell, Hegewisch, Il ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 03:13:08 EST Subject: [PRR] Chicago and Naperville Hey yuze gize, I wanted to get an opportunity to fill you in on what went on last week in the Chicago area with the Hobby Show in Rosemont and the Prototype Modelers meet in Naperville tonight but I just cleared my mail and I will come back to do it tomorrow night. I will fill you all in on the "new Toys" to expect in the near future for the manufactures that make it all possible. There is some great stuff coming from us at all sides. We are truly in the "glory days" of this hobby. I also attended the Prototype Modelers meet in Naperville and I will fill you all in on that. I saw some beautiful models on display, I will tell you who is out there doing what. I also picked up some photo's from Richard Burg and I saw some new parts and "toys" from guys who did not attend MRIA/RCHTA Show. I am also a member of the RPM (Railroad Prototype Modelers) steering committee and I will fill you in on what we are doing to encourage more accurate and realistic modeling. And guess what, I never saw one guy pick up a model or have/use a scale ruler or even count a set of rivets. Something to think of. Jim Six was planning on making it but with his work schedule and the SEMRA Convention coming up in a few weeks he was excused. Jim, Mike Bradley says hi, those guys all got in late Thursday I think. I stayed up doing slides until 2 in the morning every night but Saturday. Next year I think they will need more display tables for the models. Also I met some of the local Modelers from around the Chicago area through a great friend of mine, Mike Smeltzer, most of them deeply involved in the CB&Q (or as they refer to it -Q-shit) very, very good modelers. I will post them in 3 separate post so you can "reply to all" and keep them on topic. Greg Martin coming home with a big smile on my face! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Liberty... Date: Tue, 3 Nov 98 06:12:28 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/3/98 12:40 AM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com (TGREGMRTN@aol.com) wrote: > Please, before you tear at each others character anymore than we have and >say things that honestly I do not think that "WE PRR-Talk SPF'ers" need to >hear (or read) ca you take this off-line? I realize that there may be >problems in the Liberty Models Camp at the present time, but I hope you well >Joe and as you get caught up with your other projects, remember I have >committed some masters to you and intend on fulfilling my end. If you >want me >to pass them off to another source I need to hear it from you. Jerry, I >realize you are upset, rightfully so. You are both business men and I think >that there is an equitable compromise in the wings. I think this thread will die off momentarily. The only reason I started it on the list is because there were several (short of a dozen) who were already voicing complaints about LMP. I did want to get a warning out about their situation, not unlike what went on about Nova Tech some time back. At that time, many individuals voiced their thanks for the posts as they otherwise would have placed orders. The post to the list also seems to have accomplished something that otherwise was unattainable: It got LMP refocused (at least momentarily) on customer service and accounts payable. I have been notified that my funds are on their way via registered mail. Mike has been provided a UPS tracking number for his T1. Etc. I believe these two statements from Joe Zappa because if it were not true, why would he dig his hole deeper? I anticipate making only one more post to the list regarding this matter, unless something comes up. That post would be to say that I have received payment. I believe Mike will do likewise when he receives his T1. That would only be fair. Joe was/is a nice guy. He's just a victim of circumstance, which is unfortunate. I sympathize with his plight, thus provided him with lots of time and many opportunities to make it right. However, I (and others) should not be victimized in the process. Though he may have some bitterness about all of this, if he removes himself and looks at the situation from afar, I am sure that he will agree that this was not handled in the customer's best interest. Enough said. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Boilerbob7@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 06:20:59 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 11/03/98 The "bottle trains" still operate daily through Hegewisch. Bob Leffingwell, Hegewisch ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 Date: Tue, 3 Nov 98 06:04:16 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/2/98 11:40 PM, Greg Leary (greglear@bellsouth.net) wrote: > Does Miracle Castings have a web site (and if so,what is it)? If not, is >their product line anywhere to be found on the web? Thank you in advance. I don't have it memorized, and don't have a browser available at the moment, but there is a link to it from "Merchandise Service" http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:36:17 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago and Naperville On Tue, 3 Nov 1998 TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > Hey yuze gize, > I wanted to get an opportunity to fill you in on what went on last week in > the Chicago area with the Hobby Show in Rosemont and the Prototype Modelers > meet in Naperville tonight but I just cleared my mail and I will come back to I wasn't there (wish I could have been)... > do it tomorrow night. I will fill you all in on the "new Toys" to expect in > the near future for the manufactures that make it all possible. There is some but I did hear about some of the toys (these are the ones Pennsy fans might want): Atlas will next be doing the RS-1 in the Classic line (HO and N). Stewart C-628 is running behind but undec should ship by the end of the year. (which means if PRR comes out in February it will be a year late:-). Walthers "industry" is automotive manufacturing, which mostly only helps those doing Newark, DE or northeast Jersey... ;-) (but it's a Ford plant, not Chrysler or Chevy) Intermountain's F unit shell is well underway, and is very nice, but the nose is not yet polished out nicely. The fan detail on the new Life-Like P2K GP7 is supposed to be much better than on previous units; less of a "delrin" appearance But I wasn't even there, so I should shut up and let Greg tell it.... -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:30:19 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Jerry wrote: > On 11/2/98 11:40 PM, Greg Leary (greglear@bellsouth.net) wrote: > > > Does Miracle Castings have a web site (and if so,what is it)? If not, is > >their product line anywhere to be found on the web? Thank you in advance. > > I don't have it memorized, and don't have a browser available at the > moment, but there is a link to it from "Merchandise Service" > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com iirc http://mc.cyklone.com -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Henrik Thomsen" Subject: [PRR] Monogahela division Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 15:05:56 +0100 Hi, just to say thank for the mails I'd recieved. I will off course still be interested, if someone should know a thing or two about the Monongahela division. Regards, Henrik Thomsen ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Fwd: Re: [PRR] Civility Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 05:09:06 PST I am forwarding this to the group at the request of Joe Zappa. Let's hope this puts and end to all of this. Kevin Tully, Liberty Model Productions PRR- Talk list members, Whatever side of the fence you're on, I'm sorry that you had to be forced to be in on it all. I sincerely hope that this will be the last post regarding any of this. Since I have not been on the list for several weeks, I did not know all of the petty BS being spread about, and obviously could not reply. I will tell you that Jerry has been paid ( payment sent via registered mail ), but probably has not received it yet. I have been totally swamped, and am keeping on, but Liberty Model Productions has indeed put most all projects on the back burner for the moment. I cannot say at this time what the future holds for certain, but I will not go down easy ! It is likely that you will see several new models, but not until next year sometime. Depending on the outcome of things, you may see nothing at all. For Jerry, We do not 'Hawk' kits, we make them. You make nothing, but you do "Hawk" other peoples products. Additionally, any of my dealings in any other markets, is nobody's business but mine and the folks involved. Keep your nose out. I thank those of you who have offered words of encouragement, as they do help ! Now for the sake of everyone, if there is anything further to be 'discussed' please 'e' me DIRECTLY. Thanks you all, Joe Zappa, Liberty Model Productions ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 09:44:06 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] cloth patches Howdy Mr Boyd: I need to go to the Strasburg area on Wednesday for some work stuff. Just a short trip to hit the Train Store at Strasburg - they have just about any railroad patch ever made. Or you could call Schrader's at 1800.842.4828 and see if they have patches, I know they have hats and shirts - don't know if they still carry patches. Anyway if I can be of any service let me know. cos Robert A. Boyd wrote: > Hello all, > > Need to ask a small favor: does someone out there have a Pennsy keystone > cloth logo patch they could spare? I promised a certain 5 year old boy a > choo-choo hat for Xmas, and cloth patches can't be had for love nor money > here in St. Loser. (This kid lives in Pittsburg, watches Conrail go by > out his bedroom window and is well and truly gaa-gaa about trains, which > ought to make the Lines Westerners day) > > Please let me know what it will cost and I will get out to you directly. > > Thank you! > > Bob > > Robert A. Boyd > > ======== > Those Classic Trains > "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" > > "The Limited" On Line > http://www.thoseclassictrains.com > ======== > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20's, Liberty Models, etc. Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:26:07 -0500 Hi Everybody! I've noticed some confusion about the drive train on our BP-20 model, so here's the dirt on it. The model we sell comes with a RESIN chassis / fuel tank combination, that is designed to fit Athearn PA power trucks and Athearn motor. Our chassis has the accurate wheelbase for the Shark model (unlike the PA, which is much shorter). We don't supply the Athearn trucks or motor, as it makes little sense for a Canadian company to import U.S. goods, only to re-export them right back to the U.S., especially when our dollar is worth about as much as Monopoly money. We provide a couple of parts to extend the front drive shaft far enough to reach the front truck (the PA driveshaft is too short for the distance to the front truck). The kit is unassembled and unpainted, but needs very little finishing work compared to most craftsman kits. We've tried to obtain the highest possible surface detail and quality, and I think Jerry will agree that the shell is one of the better resin kits out there in that regard. We also have a B-unit available. If anyone has any questions, they can either ask Jerry, check out our web site, ( http://mc.cyklone.com ) or call us at (519)757-0625, or e-mail us at miracle-castings@on.aibn.com As for the Liberty Models situation, I realize that promises have not been kept, and tensions are high at the moment. Hopefully a solution can be found to this unpleasantness, for everybody's sake. HOWEVER, I do have one request of the people involved. On several occasions, Miracle Castings has been mentioned as a possible producer of kits that have been submitted to Liberty Models as masters, but which have not yet been produced. I understand the concern of the people who produced these masters, that their hard work not be wasted, and that people have access to these models. But I would like to respectfully ask that we be left out of the debate on this topic. Once the dust has settled, if someone wants us to produce a model for them, obviously we would be more than happy to talk to them about it, but we don't wish to be embroiled in the middle of a dispute over ownership or breach of contract. We have nothing to do with this situation, and would be happy to keep it that way. As for the Hobbytown / Trainstuff Mfg., I'm very familiar with Hal Kirschner of Hobbytown (he's a nice guy, and a good business man), but I've never heard of Trainstuff Mfg., and have never seen the quality of their products. We don't intend to change anything about the way we are conducting our business in reaction to this news (not at this point, at least). We would, however, suggest that people try to get a look at actual product before making a decision about which unit to buy, or at least talk to a trusted person who HAS seen the products. We're in this for the long haul, and personally I've seen too many resin producers come and go to get too worked up about any particular one. If their product is dynamite, well then I guess we'll have to react in some way! The way I feel about it, there's lots of products that need to be done, and competition is good for the hobby! Regards, Pat Lawless Miracle Castings ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 10:08:55 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago and Naperville Walthers "industry" is automotive manufacturing, which mostly only helps those doing Newark, DE or northeast Jersey... ;-) (but it's a Ford plant, not Chrysler or Chevy) the Cleveland area has a few auto plants that the Pennsy served. Living in Wisconsin I had that rumor flying around last year and now with AccuRail making the Auto Racks and Walthers making the Auto Plant . It is looking good for my future model railroad layout. Derrick J Brashear on 11/03/98 07:36:17 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com cc: (bcc: Randy Williamson/Marathon) Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago and Naperville On Tue, 3 Nov 1998 TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > Hey yuze gize, > I wanted to get an opportunity to fill you in on what went on last week in > the Chicago area with the Hobby Show in Rosemont and the Prototype Modelers > meet in Naperville tonight but I just cleared my mail and I will come back to I wasn't there (wish I could have been)... > do it tomorrow night. I will fill you all in on the "new Toys" to expect in > the near future for the manufactures that make it all possible. There is some but I did hear about some of the toys (these are the ones Pennsy fans might want): Atlas will next be doing the RS-1 in the Classic line (HO and N). Stewart C-628 is running behind but undec should ship by the end of the year. (which means if PRR comes out in February it will be a year late:-). Walthers "industry" is automotive manufacturing, which mostly only helps those doing Newark, DE or northeast Jersey... ;-) (but it's a Ford plant, not Chrysler or Chevy) Intermountain's F unit shell is well underway, and is very nice, but the nose is not yet polished out nicely. The fan detail on the new Life-Like P2K GP7 is supposed to be much better than on previous units; less of a "delrin" appearance But I wasn't even there, so I should shut up and let Greg tell it.... -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 22:19:16 -0500 From: Bob Poortinga Subject: Re: [PRR] Questions about Panhandle in Chicago > I believe the Pennsy's SC&S line still exists in part on Conrail, but would > have to check my Conrail maps for that (wherever they might be). I wonder if > that is the trackage the "bottle" train (hot metal cars) uses in part. (In my best Ed McMahon voice) You are correct, sir! The "bottle" train (officially called the "hot metal" train) transports molten iron from blast furnaces located on the "Calumet River line" through Hegewisch Junction onto the SC&S to Calumet Park interlocking where it crosses over to the IHB to Dolton, IL. At Dolton, it connects with a short segment of the original Panhandle which takes it to Riverdale, IL through a connection to Interlake Steel. The original routing of the bottle train took it to Bernice Junction and west on the Panhandle to Riverdale. It will be interesting to see if because of the Conrail/CSX/NS merger, the routing will be changed to the B&OCT between Calumet Park and Riverdale. This is a more direct route and will make that short segment of the Panhandle unnecessary and therefore probably slated for abandonment. -- Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) Bloomington, Indiana USA ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 01:16:34 -0500 From: shazada@mis.net Subject: Re: [PRR] ChicagoHobby Show Loco's (long) TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > > Gize, > Where to start. We, My brother Ed, my close friend Mike Smeltzer and I > arrived at the Rosemont Hobby show as a guest to Randy Lee at Model > Railroading. We hit the floor running and here's what we found. SNIPAGE occurred here > PS. Tomorrow I will start a thread on Passenger cars and freight cars from > the show and my results of putting a Micrometer to the Bachmann 10-2-1 sleep, > you will be pleasantly surprised. Then let's talk about the Prototype > Modelers meet. Any news on the N-Scale front? -- David Mikulec The DT&I Modelers Page http://DTI.Railfan.net ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 00:39:08 EST Subject: [PRR] ChicagoHobby Show Loco's (long) Gize, Where to start. We, My brother Ed, my close friend Mike Smeltzer and I arrived at the Rosemont Hobby show as a guest to Randy Lee at Model Railroading. We hit the floor running and here's what we found. Athearn: We saw the new SD-70 MAC and the detail is some of the best tooling they have done to date. The stanchions will be produced in a form of Delrin. There are draw backs with this type of plastic because it has such a low adhesion for paint. The upside is that because of the type of plastic it can be forced into a mould at higher pressure and allows it to be cast finer. Details are finer as a result. We took a look at the Athearn/Lubeliner F-unit shells up close. They appear to be nearly complete with only work left to be done seemed to be the pilot. They are beautiful but trying to do a make "one shell does all" has it's compromises. One I was made aware of was the exposed truss webbing across from the dynamics is different from the F-3 to the F-7. It has is upside in that the detail is so fine you will want to run it without paint. It is IMHO the most detailed locomotive I have seen in HO scale yet, including brass. Atlas: The only locomotive I saw on display that was "new" (re-release) was the RS-1. A good locomotive. Nuff said. Bachmann: I got a close up look of the Consolidation for the first time at the show. I was amazed at how well the darn thing ran and at the beautiful tooling. To my surprise I found that they are tooling and near completion of a Mountain (4-8-2). The frame and most of the boiler parts are done. It will sport the same drive system as the Consolidation. I guess this is an insight to things to come. As a matter of fact they will retool the K-4 in the future. I wonder what the brass guys are going to do? "the times they are a changin'..." Life Like: I saw the new GP-7 and it was a great effort. I cannot say if it was their best effort ... perhaps their best effort yet. Just discussing the locomotive with Randy Lee at diner brought up a question ... which type of tread was used on the walkway? Or was there? They had their F-3 onhand and what can I say I liked it and bought it 2 weeks ago. They were very tight mouthed at the show itself and did not have a sample of the GP-30 onhand or want to talk about it. However; Larry Grub showed up at the display room in Naperville sporting a sample of the GP-30 and as he walked past the table that Mark Kerlick, my brother Ed and I shared he saw Mark's new brass FM CFA/B -16-44 I made a comment on how beautiful they were and he said "we're going to do them". So something to look forward too. Nothing was said about their 0-8-0 or 2-8-2. I guess we will just have to wait and see. When Mark Kerlick ask about an SD-35 he got a flat NO. This company has had a tremendous run and are rolling the industry forward. What a success story. Kato: Kato had samples of their new RS-2 and RSC-2's. They are very nice locomotives and close examination showed they corrected the cab roof contour and the fireman's window corner post. This has been a problem with the Atlas RS-3 that has not been corrected to date. Sorry, no bad mouthing a competitor. Mike Smeltzer and I ask the rep straight up if they planned more paint scheme like Boston and Maine in one of the 3 paint schemes or New Haven they said that no paint schemes have been ruled out. Very diplomatic. We need to let them know that there is a demand for them to take the first step. EMAIL THEM! Intermountain: Well, we saw the samples of the test shots of the F-7 shell. We saw the fist sample at DesPlaines Hobbies. Then at the show we saw an additional progressive test shots. You could actually tell that each progressive test had some corrections made to the dies ... interesting! Talking with Frank he told us that the first shells should hit the market around but likely right after Christmas, this year . They will be made available as a shell only that you can apply to whichever power frame you wish, Proto-Power, Life Like, Stewart, Athearn, Overland, Hobbytown, or Bachmann. They said the frame is being engineered now and they are looking at all power frames that are available to date and then will pick their spot. Look for the complete frame and shell to be offered around May or June. I included all the frames that came to mind just to show you how many offerings have made their way into the market. They will tool a seperate shell for the F-3, F-2, and F-9 as there are differences in the bodies. The detail was not as tight as the Lubeliner shell but I am not so sure that I need to see the slots in the batten screws, great up very close but at 12 inches away will it be noticeable under paint? Stewart: Steve showed up with his line of F-units from FT's to F-9's and said he would have them back on the market soon. How soon he would not say. I think that he has learned what happens when he makes personal goals public. He also brought running samples of his ALCo C-628's. They are incredible! Then explained that he has left little to chance for the hobby shop owner. Here's the deal you pick shell that has either one sand filler or two sand fillers. The rest of the options are in the kit, both cabs for horizontal or vertical lights and a snow plow. The tooling is incredible! I understood him to say that the Undecs are ready to ship, Mike Smeltzer said he did not pick up on that. They also brought an AS-6-16 and he explained that the new drive will be made in house and engineered like the ALCo C-628. Again no word on how soon, Steve, I wouldn't either and I for one am willing to wait and in the meantime I will run my Athearn/Stewart drive units. Well, what have I forgot? Fire away gize! I will answer what I can. We need to talk this thread through. I could think of another engine that I would have like to see offered by someone would be the FM ERIE Builts. If you are a Pennsy fan remember there were more of these than passenger Sharks and PA/B's combined. Greg Martin PS. Tomorrow I will start a thread on Passenger cars and freight cars from the show and my results of putting a Micrometer to the Bachmann 10-2-1 sleep, you will be pleasantly surprised. Then let's talk about the Prototype Modelers meet. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Leary" Subject: RE: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 02:13:06 -0500 Derrick, Thank you for providing the Miracle address site. \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ Sincerely, Greg Leary (electronically signed) > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Derrick J > Brashear > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 8:30 AM > To: PRR - Talk Group > Subject: RE: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20 > > > On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Jerry wrote: > > > On 11/2/98 11:40 PM, Greg Leary (greglear@bellsouth.net) wrote: > > > > > Does Miracle Castings have a web site (and if so,what is > it)? If not, is > > >their product line anywhere to be found on the web? Thank you > in advance. > > > > I don't have it memorized, and don't have a browser available at the > > moment, but there is a link to it from "Merchandise Service" > > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > iirc http://mc.cyklone.com > > -D > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mdimaio@ids.net Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 03:27:51 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Liberty... Unitl now I have nothing to say about Joe Zappa and customer service. Jerry's comments make sense to me and may well have had some impact on the fact that my T-1 may be en route back to R.I. For that reason, I am glad he said what he said. I must stress that Joe has dealt with me in a fair fashion and seems to be getting his business back on its feet and I wish for its success. Subject: Re: [PRR] Liberty... Date sent: Tue, 3 Nov 98 06:12:28 -0500 From: Jerry To: "PRR-Talk" > On 11/3/98 12:40 AM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com (TGREGMRTN@aol.com) wrote: > > > Please, before you tear at each others character anymore than we have and > >say things that honestly I do not think that "WE PRR-Talk SPF'ers" need to > >hear (or read) ca you take this off-line? I realize that there may be > >problems in the Liberty Models Camp at the present time, but I hope you well > >Joe and as you get caught up with your other projects, remember I have > >committed some masters to you and intend on fulfilling my end. If you > >want me > >to pass them off to another source I need to hear it from you. Jerry, I > >realize you are upset, rightfully so. You are both business men and I think > >that there is an equitable compromise in the wings. > > I think this thread will die off momentarily. The only reason I started > it on the list is because there were several (short of a dozen) who were > already voicing complaints about LMP. I did want to get a warning out > about their situation, not unlike what went on about Nova Tech some time > back. At that time, many individuals voiced their thanks for the posts as > they otherwise would have placed orders. > > The post to the list also seems to have accomplished something that > otherwise was unattainable: It got LMP refocused (at least momentarily) > on customer service and accounts payable. I have been notified that my > funds are on their way via registered mail. Mike has been provided a UPS > tracking number for his T1. Etc. I believe these two statements from Joe > Zappa because if it were not true, why would he dig his hole deeper? > > I anticipate making only one more post to the list regarding this matter, > unless something comes up. That post would be to say that I have received > payment. I believe Mike will do likewise when he receives his T1. That > would only be fair. > > Joe was/is a nice guy. He's just a victim of circumstance, which is > unfortunate. I sympathize with his plight, thus provided him with lots of > time and many opportunities to make it right. However, I (and others) > should not be victimized in the process. Though he may have some > bitterness about all of this, if he removes himself and looks at the > situation from afar, I am sure that he will agree that this was not > handled in the customer's best interest. > > Enough said. > > ----------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com > "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com > ----------------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > Michael DiMaio, Ph.D. Managing Editor, De Imperatoribus Romanis Professor of Philosophy Department of Philosophy Salve Regina University Newport, RI 02920 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 08:45:14 -0500 From: Doug Hunt Subject: [PRR] Bel Del ?s (K-6 class???) I just received a copy of Down Along the Old Bel-Del by Warren Lee through interlibrary loan. It is very interesting, and is offering insights I was never aware of. It's like taking a trip back home and through time, without the 12 hour drive from Indiana. In the Epilogue, he mentions E-6 atlantics and K-6 pacifics? Was there a K-6 class? I know of the K-2, K-3, and some of the experimental double digit K-xx class engines. Might these have run along the branch? (One double digit K-xx class pacific looks exactly like the B&O class P-3 pacific, from Baldwin, 1913... I can't remember the class number) A K-4 is shown to be at Trenton in 1959. What piece of railroad would it have been running on at this time? (it looked to be fired up) The Bel-Del dieselized in 1955. Also, L-1s ran on the branch hauling coal. That was one question I wanted to know about. Who was the person who helped colloborate on the book that lived in Titusville, NJ? Was it George M. Hart? The name rings a bell, and there are many photos credited to him in the book. Thanks for the help, DOUG ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 10:08:25 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Questions about Panhandle in Chicago In a message dated 11/3/98 10:59:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobp@tsc.com writes: > The "bottle" train (officially called the "hot metal" train) transports > molten > iron from blast furnaces located on the "Calumet River line" through > Hegewisch > Junction onto the SC&S to Calumet Park interlocking where it crosses over to > the > IHB to Dolton, IL. At Dolton, it connects with a short segment of the > original > Panhandle which takes it to Riverdale, IL through a connection to Interlake > Steel. > > The original routing of the bottle train took it to Bernice Junction and > west on the Panhandle to Riverdale. > > It will be interesting to see if because of the Conrail/CSX/NS merger, the > routing will be changed to the B&OCT between Calumet Park and Riverdale. > This > is a more direct route and will make that short segment of the Panhandle > unnecessary and therefore probably slated for abandonment. > > -- > Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) > Bloomington, Indiana USA > Thanks, Bob, for this info. I used to go to Burnham Crossing, where the SC&S crosses a bundle of rail lines (South Shore, NKP?, Chicago & Western Indiana?) just northwest of State Line Tower. For some reason I never caught the bottle train, but it was a great show otherwise. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 17:17:41 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bel Del ?s (K-6 class???) ***Hi, Doug and all - Glad you got Lee's book on the Bel-Del....just remeber, he is not a true railraod historian, as we know of them..... His RR knowledge was gleaned from other sources, so do not take anything literally. Treat it as a pleasant work of remeberances, not always accurate, but interesting. I will have a KEYSTONE article on the Bel-Del soon......the first PRR Branch Line I worked on.......Bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TAN: Update on Liberty Date: Wed, 4 Nov 98 16:56:35 -0500 From: Jerry Just wanted to pass along that I received full payment today from Liberty Model Productions. Hopefully others will recieve the satisfaction that they were promised from earlier in the week. It's a shame that it took a "concurrent" public barage to get things going, but hopefully this "refocusing" will get LMP back on track with their future endeavors. Thanks for coming through, Joe. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg Info Date: Wed, 4 Nov 98 19:15:26 -0500 From: Jerry The "Milepost", the newsletter of the Friends of the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, arrived today. It has many answers to questions posed on this list over the past year or so. The article was written as of 1948. 1) It has a photo of the PRR freight house next to the coach yards south of the passenger station. It features a B6sb switching and was taken in 1920. The Harrisburg Gas Company clearly has those real large gas tanks....not a small facility as I had thought; 2) A photo of the front facade of the Reading Railroad station. It opened in 1904 and was razed in 1956. Frontage of 150' and depth of 83'; 3) Most passenger power west of Harrisburg was K4 and T1; 4) The daily interchange jaunt between the PRR's Enola Yard and the Reading's Rutherford Yard was typically powered by an L1s; 5) A-B-B-A sets of F3's seen at Enola; strings of M1's with 110P75 tenders on storage tracks at Enola; 6) Turntable at passenger facility was longest on the line, at 125', and built specifically to handle the 123'9-1/4" wheelbase of the S1 #6100 which never actually made it to the city. Indicates that the "standard" turntable on the system was 110'. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 00:29:27 EST Subject: [PRR] Chicago/Rosemont Freight & Passenger cars Hey Yuze Gize, Let talk about the new Freight cars we saw at the MRIA show. Athearn: Same old molds just new "collectors" paints :^0 Ho Hum! ACCURAIL: We talked to Dennis at length and he showed us his up coming doubled deck autorack circa 1968, but with a little swapin' and jivin' you can come up with an early 60's autorack too. He had samples of the entire line and the newly released retool ex-FrontRange/McKeen-Skylim 50' semi modern exterior post boxcar. It comes in a 10' plug door and sliding door option. Nice work for the market Denis is trying to reach. I like his products and attitude about the hobby and modelers. He warned me not to take my ACCURAIL cars to the Prototype Modelers Display for fear I may be arrested by the FreightCar Police, I did and I was not and BTW I got quite a few compliments on them. I had ask him about the tooling for the Front Range 40' boxcar that had 4/4 dreadnaught ends that had the ladders tooled on the car he said that they went to Red Caboose, but they claimed they did not have them. ;^( ??? I would love to see this kit retooled with separate ladders and details. Bachmann: Nothing new but I did have an opportunity to put a Micrometer to the 10-2-1 at my friend Mike Smeltzer's basement before flying out on Sunday. What I found was, base on the RIVEROSSI cars (given they are correct), the windows that Tom Madden of the PCL had mention that they appeared too big are slightly shorter, about 1 scale inch, and 15 thousandths of an inch wider than the RIVEROSSI car. Andy Harmon had posted what RR's he felt that the car covered in its window arrangement, to that I will add at least one Pennsy car. Red Caboose: They had their samples ready of the former Front Range 40' box car that they had invested some retooling in. Someone said that the ends were retooled if they were they made them look the same to me. The side were definitely retooled and the doors and ladders were all new tooling as well as the grabs and the tack boards. They looked very clean! I can't wait to get my hands on them. They are going to be offered in 6' and 8' doors and later 7' doors. They also exhibited a draft for the tooling of the ART reefer that is on the drawing table. Good stuff! But still looking for the 4/4 dreadnaught end tooling? Life Like: The only cars Life Like had at the show was the P1K PC/WP National Steel Car Co. car produced as the PC X-72 and X-72A car. They were in the road specific paint for WP and PC but I can see no reason for not painting the car in CR and CNA as these road had them too. Food for thought. Later at the Naperville Larry Grub was sporting the newest car for the Proto 2000 series which will be the ARR 50 ton 52'6'' flat car. Excellent detail they even tooled the hole for the spikes in the side stake pockets. Off the top of my head this car is good for UP, NKP, ERIE, ACL, D&RGW, C&O and more. I only wished it was the 70 ton car, there was far more examples. Branchline: They were displaying samples of their soon to be released 50' 8' single door boxcar. They had some of the tooling for the 40' car onhand also. I had a conversation with Bill Schneider and met the die cutter working on the passenger cars. The first to be released will be the 12-1 in plan 2410 and then the 10-1-2 at some time in the future. He thanked me for the use of the 8X10 B&W heavyweight photo's I had sent him to use as reference, my pleasure Bill if you are out there. We should see some beautiful stuff from him in the future. Challenger: They had samples of their PRR Congo cars and Senator cars. Nice, expensive but very, very nice. Coach Yard; I saw their Santa FE cars and again nice, spendy, but very very nice. Walthers: Nuttin' new that I saw. Con-Cor: They may have had something new but I did not stop in as I am not in their market. Bethlehem Car Works: The one thing that stands out the most is a 40' PRR Trailer in cast resin! Can't wait! Well, what did I miss, sure I forgot something. Greg Martin PS Tomorrow I will have a commentary on Naperville, f you have never been plan too. I only hope that Martin Loftin is ready to expand, this show is a must and next year Jim Six will make it if I have to have him kidnapped! Lots of folks were looking forward to seeing him, although I understand with his work schedule and the SEMRA Convention he is up to his.... ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 09:32:36 EST Subject: [PRR] modern news... ***CSX announce that their "new" double track, reversible traffic line between Greenwich, OH and Chicago is open and in service as of today. ( Nice to see some new construction versus destruction....) The line represents a $220 million investment for the 270 mile route. Including 100 route miles of new track....250 miles upgraded...Rev. traffic, crossovers, and some new interchange links to other RRs. School programs and operation lifesaver specials to be roaming the area to re- acquaint the local folks about what rail traffic used to be ( busy ) before the line's traffic is to be significantly increased.....allowing for an adjustment period..... = CSX News release.. In udder noooze....USX announced a 70% curtailment of production at the Fairless Works ( near former PRR Morrisville yard, PA )....claimed that illegal foreign steel dumping / imports was affecting their sales... It wasn't that long ago ( decades...?) that I could remember Mo'ville CHOKED with traffic for Fairless, with the Reading line busy, also.........bill** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago/Rosemont Freight & Passenger cars Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 12:50:54 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 5 Nov, TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > Nothing new but I did have an opportunity to put a Micrometer to the > 10-2-1 at my friend Mike Smeltzer's basement before flying out on Sunday. > What I found was, base on the RIVEROSSI cars (given they are correct), the > windows that Tom Madden of the PCL had mention that they appeared too big are > slightly shorter, about 1 scale inch, and 15 thousandths of an inch wider than > the RIVEROSSI car. If the N Rivarossi models are scaled down directly from the HO, the area above the windows is about half as tall as it should be. I've been investigating adding the postwar gold stripes to some of my PRR Rivarossi heavyweights, and the PENNSYLVANIA takes up the entire height above the windows, leaving no room for a properly aligned stripe. *sigh* Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:17:18 EST Subject: [PRR] Pennsy B62 BE Folks, I was just looking through the latest catalog sheets from Bethlehem Car Works, and I was reminded to find out if anyone can tell me what the Pennsy "B62" car is. It's obviously a baggage car, but the 62 is throwing me off. B60, B70 or B74 is fine, but a B62? Anyone that can fill me in? Thanks, Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TAN: Reading-Talk List Date: Thu, 5 Nov 98 17:33:18 -0500 From: Jerry If anyone cares, my server is now serving a Reading Railroad list, "Reading-Talk". For more info, see http://kc.pennsyrr.com/readingtalk.html Other than the list, I will not be getting into Reading stuff. This serves a need, but my emphasis will remain "PRR Forever"! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy B62 BE Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:19:21 -0500 Barry, The PRR B62 baggage express cars were ex-Reading cars. Quoting from the instruction sheet in my kit: Car #7940 & #7941 are ex-Reading class Bau Car # 7942 was ex-Reading class MBr Car #7943 was ex-Reading class MBe Car #7944-7953 are ex-Reading class Bau There is a photograph of a PRR B62 in Morning Sun's PRR Color Guide Volume 2 at the bottom of page 31. The caption says the PRR acquired 14 of these cars from the Reading in May, 1964. Jerry Breon -----Original Message----- From: BPX29@aol.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com ; pcl@railnet.nshore.org Date: Thursday, November 05, 1998 7:32 PM Subject: [PRR] Pennsy B62 BE >Folks, >I was just looking through the latest catalog sheets from Bethlehem Car Works, >and I was reminded to find out if anyone can tell me what the Pennsy "B62" car >is. It's obviously a baggage car, but the 62 is throwing me off. B60, B70 or >B74 is fine, but a B62? Anyone that can fill me in? Thanks, >Barry Peltier > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago/Rosemont Freight & Passenger cars From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 98 11:27:07 -0500 Greg, You said (in part): " Bachmann: . . . Andy Harmon had posted what RR's he felt that the car covered in its window arrangement, to that I will add at least one Pennsy car." I don't know if you have your "Andys" confused or if Andy Harmon also wrote a posting about the prototypes for the Bachmann Pullman which I did not see. I wrote one some time ago in which I identified some 20+ instances of the car. Most were C&O. I could not find a PRR instance. What is the car you discovered? BTW I painted my Bachmann 10-2-1 for SOUTHERN ("Thomas Ruffin") as this car was in thru service on the Birmingham Special as the drop car from NY Penn Station to Knoxville TN, and therefore appeared on PRR tracks. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Laird, Bill" Subject: RE: [PRR] Bottle Trains (was ? about Panhandle in Chicago) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 09:23:42 -0600 Anyone know just how long the metal will stay molten in a "bottle car"? This would seem to be the limiting factor on a route for a "bottle train". Bill Laird > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Poortinga [SMTP:bobp@tsc.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 9:19 PM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Questions about Panhandle in Chicago > > The "bottle" train (officially called the "hot metal" train) transports > molten > iron from blast furnaces located on the "Calumet River line" through > Hegewisch > Junction onto the SC&S to Calumet Park interlocking where it crosses over > to the > IHB to Dolton, IL. At Dolton, it connects with a short segment of the > original > Panhandle which takes it to Riverdale, IL through a connection to > Interlake > Steel. > > The original routing of the bottle train took it to Bernice Junction and > west on the Panhandle to Riverdale. > > It will be interesting to see if because of the Conrail/CSX/NS merger, the > routing will be changed to the B&OCT between Calumet Park and Riverdale. > This > is a more direct route and will make that short segment of the Panhandle > unnecessary and therefore probably slated for abandonment. > > -- > Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) > Bloomington, Indiana USA > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] LCL Shipping (Freight House vs. REA) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 98 15:58:52 -0500 From: Jerry Can anyone provide a somewhat brief dissertation on LCL (less than car load) shipping on the PRR. For instance: At Harrisburg there was both the REA station & a very large freight station. What went where? Was all REA traffic transported by passenger trains? Were the cars destined for the freight station transferred by freight trains? And were the latter of the "Merchandise Service" variety, as an example? My thought is that REA was probably very small items, directed towards the consumer. Whereas the freight station was probably more sizable items, typically business customers, who did not have enough to warrant a full car, or who were not rail-served directly. Is this train of thought somewhat correct? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TodEngine@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:29:19 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bottle Trains (was ? about Panhandle in Chicago) In a message dated 98-11-06 11:11:04 EST, you write: > Anyone know just how long the metal will stay molten in a "bottle > car"? This would seem to be the limiting factor on a route for a "bottle > train". You know, I move hot metal cars around several times a week, watch them pour every morning etc. but never wondered about the length of time the iron will stay molten. I have quite a bit of info. regarding the mixer type cars, as they are correctly called, so I'll have to look it up. Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 18:48:46 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] LCL Shipping (Freight House vs. REA) Jerry, Only have time for a short reply, but there are some really good articles on this subject which I hope I can list out a bit later.But it sounds like you're on the right track as far as shipments, at least to a degree. REA was more or less a direct competitor to the post office and was something of a forerunner to UPS and etc. Both business and privite parties used their services. Those green REA trucks used to be as common as UPS is today, making deliveries and pick ups. Pennsy used to run trains dedicated entirely to REA, though most passenger trains carried express in their 'baggage' cars. LCL was largely business-related, but it was by no means unusual for a citizen to make a shipment this way. Up here in the Twin Cities the NP and GN continued LCL service long after most roads gave it up because the highway systems were so bad in the Dakotas and Montana. The big difference with REA was the lower rates and much slower service. But a farmer could ship a tractor part, say, to Minneapolis Moline for an exchange if it was winter and he was in no big hurry for the new part. If it took three days each way via freight rather than 1 day via REA. it was no big deal. But I gotta run and I'm sure this subject will be a good one. Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 21:02:06 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: [OPSIG] Re: adding the caboose In a message dated 11/6/98 4:56:49 PM Central Standard Time, dgeiger@oneimage.com writes: << Got a question for all you operator types: It's always been my understanding that a cut of cars should never be backed into a caboose whenever possible. Stated another way, the caboose was usually tacked onto the rear of the train. Assume there was no one in the caboose during the process. Was this prototype, or just my dumb thinking? I've admonished many a yardmaster for putting the caboose out on the departure track and then pushing the whole train down onto that lonely caboose. Just interested. >> I had the same impression you did, Doug,but haven't heard this mentioned in some time and I don't seem to meet many people in model railroading who make a big deal about this detail of operation (or did I imagine the same understanding you did?). I am also interested in the opinions and practices of the people on the list. It is a practice I try and follow myself. I have been trying to get the guys at the club to operate switchers at both ends of our yard for this and other reasons. Actually, the Pennsy made it a little more complicated to model . At Enola (and some other locations, I believe) , the cabin track was on a grade and the cabin was "rolled downgrade onto the end of the train, sans benefit of switcher. Also the cabin was switched off by flying switches in some cases, also difficult to model. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 20:20:46 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago/Rosemont Freight & Passenger cars In noting that Branchline plans to do an 8-2-1, I am a little confused. The Southland lists an 8-2-1 in its consist in the 1945-7 consists. But the Keystone in 1982 says that some of the classic 8 section buffet lounge cars (with solariium) were assigned to the Southland. Since the Southland also listed a 10 section lounge observation in the Mount series in its consist, I have a question: What the heck did the Southland include (and when) in its consist among four configurations: a. 8-2-1 b. 8 section lounge solarium c. 10 section lounge observation d. 10 section lounge solarium (later, enclosed version of the Mount series). Thanks in advance for any input from this astute list. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 20:56:17 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] What is it? Hi Chris, All, Pic matches pic of PRR "Clearance Car" #497125 in Sweetland and Yanosey's "Color Guide". These were used to determine clearances on various routes by use of the "fingers" attached to the car which could be extended outward. Ron. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 17:48:21 -0500 (EST) From: Mark D Bej Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg-York area For the interested (that's you, Jerry!), train CE-2 http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Frtsched/ce2_1960.html specifically lists many Harrisburg-area spots for which it carries local traffic from the west. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 00:42:16 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: adding the caboose = the WHAT.!? we didn't have no In a message dated 98-11-06 21:14:30 EST, you write: << the people on the list. It is a practice I try and follow myself. I have been trying to get the guys at the club to operate switchers at both ends of our yard for this and other reasons. Actually, the Pennsy made it a little more complicated to model . At Enola (and some other locations, I believe) , the cabin track was on a grade and the cabin was "rolled downgrade onto the end of the train, sans benefit of switcher. Also the cabin was switched off by flying switches in some cases, also difficult to model. Bob Zoeller >> ***thanks, Bob....that thing at Enola was appropriately called the Pimple (Track), at least the one on the east end of the yard...since it looked like a pimple sticking up op on an otherwise flat landscape. I gotta check for the west end nickname, if different.....I think it was the same. The recently discussed pool CABIN CARS made this possible, as opposed to drilling out the previously assigned cabins....I.E., " Joe's Cabin " for his train. Handbrake released, and roll down the ramp, line switch and onto yer train. The Meadows yard was downgrade ewd, so unable to do this, needed drill to tack on, but more likely drill tacked cabin car onto made up train, power coupled on, air test and go. So yer drill could make up the train, and then run down to the hind end and tack cabin on before departure, one drill could do all make-up moves, or two. I have many vivid memories of flying the cabin into the Meadows cabin track. Had to cut off on the fly, butt advantage was the descending grade. So you could almost roll to a stop to throw the switch, then release brake and roll in, close switch, and keep going. Poetry to watch experienced men perform this maneuver..!!! ......and totally embarrassing if you rolled past the switch without throwing in time..!!! Now the yardie had to pull a drill off work to correct your error...ooopppss..!!! Butt that was still preferable to splitting the switch..!!!!!!...Thx fer memory jog..Bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 23:35:09 -0500 From: Chris Brandt Subject: [PRR] What is it? Greetings to the Group, An image was recently posted to A.B.P.R. by Bill Waller. Picture was taken in Perryville, MD sometime in the late 50's. Perhaps someone in this group can identify this tail end car. I have no clue. http://webcircle.com/users/cobrandt/prr8278n.jpg -- Chris Brandt http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: [PRR] shock jocks Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 21:55:27 -0500 There is now a discussion list for all us "shock-jocks", this list isnt just for PRR electric fans, also: NH, ICRR, NYC,South Shore,LIRR,PC, CR, etc...... Anyone want to join?? www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/shock-jocks -Josh Trower ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] What is it? Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 19:55:28 -0500 The car is a clearance car, for checking the tunnels along the port road, and other places. It was kept in Baltimore for awhile, beside the old round house. There is also a shot of it on the NCR at the tunnel, in the early 50's. Check page 39 of "The cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad" Wayner Publications ( mine was from 1988?) Bill ---------- > From: Chris Brandt > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] What is it? > Date: Friday, November 06, 1998 11:35 PM > > Greetings to the Group, > > An image was recently posted to A.B.P.R. by Bill Waller. Picture was > taken in Perryville, MD sometime in the late 50's. Perhaps someone in > this group can identify this tail end car. I have no clue. > > http://webcircle.com/users/cobrandt/prr8278n.jpg > > -- > Chris Brandt > http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] What is it? Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 19:55:28 -0500 The car is a clearance car, for checking the tunnels along the port road, and other places. It was kept in Baltimore for awhile, beside the old round house. There is also a shot of it on the NCR at the tunnel, in the early 50's. Check page 39 of "The cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad" Wayner Publications ( mine was from 1988?) Bill ---------- > From: Chris Brandt > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] What is it? > Date: Friday, November 06, 1998 11:35 PM > > Greetings to the Group, > > An image was recently posted to A.B.P.R. by Bill Waller. Picture was > taken in Perryville, MD sometime in the late 50's. Perhaps someone in > this group can identify this tail end car. I have no clue. > > http://webcircle.com/users/cobrandt/prr8278n.jpg > > -- > Chris Brandt > http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20's, Liberty Models, etc. Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:50:14 -0500 Hello Pat, Met up with Derrick Brashear today in Youngstown, Pa. Which is south-east of Pittsburgh on the old PRR line. I saw your casting of the BP-20, and I will state that is great. I will be placing an order sometime before Christmas for an A/B set. Guys this relay did look great. And is in no way what I saw at the train show in Timonium, MD ! ( Now can you make it except the Hobbytown mech. ?) wishful thought ! And thanks to Derrick for meeting me in Youngwood today, with that kit. Bill Knepper ( boxcar46@nfdc.net) ---------- > From: Miracle Castings Inc. > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP-20's, Liberty Models, etc. > Date: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 11:26 AM > > Hi Everybody! I've noticed some confusion about the drive train on our > BP-20 model, so here's the dirt on it. The model we sell comes with a RESIN > chassis / fuel tank combination, that is designed to fit Athearn PA power > trucks and Athearn motor. Our chassis has the accurate wheelbase for the > Shark model (unlike the PA, which is much shorter). We don't supply the > Athearn trucks or motor, as it makes little sense for a Canadian company to > import U.S. goods, only to re-export them right back to the U.S., especially > when our dollar is worth about as much as Monopoly money. We provide a > couple of parts to extend the front drive shaft far enough to reach the > front truck (the PA driveshaft is too short for the distance to the front > truck). The kit is unassembled and unpainted, but needs very little > finishing work compared to most craftsman kits. We've tried to obtain the > highest possible surface detail and quality, and I think Jerry will agree > that the shell is one of the better resin kits out there in that regard. We > also have a B-unit available. If anyone has any questions, they can either > ask Jerry, check out our web site, ( http://mc.cyklone.com ) or call us at > (519)757-0625, or e-mail us at miracle-castings@on.aibn.com > > As for the Liberty Models situation, I realize that promises have not been > kept, and tensions are high at the moment. Hopefully a solution can be > found to this unpleasantness, for everybody's sake. HOWEVER, I do have one > request of the people involved. On several occasions, Miracle Castings has > been mentioned as a possible producer of kits that have been submitted to > Liberty Models as masters, but which have not yet been produced. I > understand the concern of the people who produced these masters, that their > hard work not be wasted, and that people have access to these models. But I > would like to respectfully ask that we be left out of the debate on this > topic. Once the dust has settled, if someone wants us to produce a model > for them, obviously we would be more than happy to talk to them about it, > but we don't wish to be embroiled in the middle of a dispute over ownership > or breach of contract. We have nothing to do with this situation, and would > be happy to keep it that way. > > As for the Hobbytown / Trainstuff Mfg., I'm very familiar with Hal Kirschner > of Hobbytown (he's a nice guy, and a good business man), but I've never > heard of Trainstuff Mfg., and have never seen the quality of their products. > We don't intend to change anything about the way we are conducting our > business in reaction to this news (not at this point, at least). We would, > however, suggest that people try to get a look at actual product before > making a decision about which unit to buy, or at least talk to a trusted > person who HAS seen the products. We're in this for the long haul, and > personally I've seen too many resin producers come and go to get too worked > up about any particular one. If their product is dynamite, well then I > guess we'll have to react in some way! The way I feel about it, there's lots > of products that need to be done, and competition is good for the hobby! > Regards, > > Pat Lawless > Miracle Castings > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 20:56:17 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] What is it? Hi Chris, All, Pic matches pic of PRR "Clearance Car" #497125 in Sweetland and Yanosey's "Color Guide". These were used to determine clearances on various routes by use of the "fingers" attached to the car which could be extended outward. Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 22:03:26 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] adding the cabin Hi Doug, Bob, All, I agree with you on tacking on the cabins using a switcher instead of backing the train onto it. Two things make this difficult. First, like you guys, I can't convince the rest of the group to follow this practice; they say it takes too much time. Duh? Railroading took time in those days. If we ran our railroads eliminating all the "time-consuming" operations we would eventually end up with the circle around the Christmas tree. Second, and more important from a modeling persective: Our yards, like most model yards, are single-ended due to space constraints. This makes it impossible to "tack on" the cabin without pulling the train out onto the main and stopping it to add the cabin. One yard does have a run-a-round to the back of the ladder and the cabin track and when I worked that yard I would use the goat to add the cabin. The third yard, in the planning stages, will be designed to allow ops from both ends, at least on the arrival and departure tracks, as proto-operations are very important to me. I've already bid in as YM at this yard and it will keep me happy. I don't harp on the guys; just try to show them by example. Now if I can just get them to observe the rulebook re: overweight trains, blocking empties at the rear, loco TE ratings, etc... Later, Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 08:32:10 EST Subject: [PRR] Adding the CABIN CAR/ Caboose Folks, Seems there's a number of ways to add the way car to a freight, but the preferred method is tacking the caboose to the train. Railroads have never been fond of wasting money, and moving a whole train costs a lot more than moving one car. At least in originating yards, this would be the preferred approach. Of course there's about a million variables when the train hits the road (not counting rr's like the B&O that used two cabooses on way freights). But a good example would be the AT&SF operation one of the fellas is doing at the San Bernidino (?) division point, where trains switch cabooses and crews. There was a thread on assigned cabooses a while back, it seems. I'd make a sizable bet old John Santa Fe wasn't pushing trains onto their new cabooses and pulling whole trains off the old one. As I mentioned once before, figuring in costs on a prototype basis would put a whole new light on our operations. Barry Peltier St. Paul (home of Jesse the Body Ventura), MN ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 09:29:33 -0500 From: bobsin@nac.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Bottle Trains Just a little bit of lore about hot metal trains, a railroad civil engineer I know once remarked that when those things derail and the hot metal spills, the rails . . . melt! John Bobsin ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 12:14:48 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [OPSIG] Re: adding the caboose In fact, there was a trestle-like thing with a very noticable slope to it. Kind of looked like a string of cabin cars on a coal delivery trestle! According to first-person accounts I've read, the crew would be in the cabin car as it would roll down the slope and couple onto the train. I wonder how many times they missed. Now for my question: how did they connect the brake hoses when they did this? It seems that reaching down from the platform to do this would be dangerous. John Keel In a message dated 11/6/98 9:14:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bobspf@aol.com writes: << Actually, the Pennsy made it a little more complicated to model . At Enola (and some other locations, I believe) , the cabin track was on a grade and the cabin was "rolled downgrade onto the end of the train, sans benefit of switcher. Also the cabin was switched off by flying switches in some cases, also difficult to model. Bob Zoeller >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 23:48:26 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Cabin Cars Hi Folks.... While were on this cabin car thread..... Anyone out there know what track was the cabin track at Bay View yard in Baltimore Md ? I've always hazily remembered it as being in the receiving (south end ?)part of the yard. Not next to , but away from the main tracks , just north of Orangeville's engine ready tracks (employees called this track "the pit" probably for inspection pits) Also...while i'm talking about Bay View yard...Near North Point road which ran under the center of the yard was where the " hump was ...cars came from the south yard...then to the hump and rolled down to the north yards bowl tracks.That much i remember. This hump is gone now. Disappeared during early Conrail years. I've also wondered if this hump was bi-directional. Anyone know ? The reason i mention the hump in this yard...is that it would be easy to just push a cabin over the hump and let it drift down to the train it would go onto. As a side note here....A small car repair shop was just to the east of the north part of the yard...A steam wrecking crane was kept there next to the repair building during PC years...probably during PRR years too. The repair shop was a metal building...with doors at both ends.... It was still there the last time i was up in Baltimore. At Orangeville....the roundhouse,turntable,engine shop, storage tracks, crew bunk building ,coaling tower and crew dispatcher's office are all gone. Taken out during the constuction of the newer I-95 Harbor tunnel through Baltimore. From what i've been told the turntable was filled in and is still there. One or two of the older storage tracks next to the main might be still there....these were the ones which went to a cold storage company building. Oh before i forget...At the small Mt. Vernon yard which was near Baltimore's Penn station and is now a MTA light rail yard.....This was a single ended yard more or less....for local trains....the train would be made up on ajacent tracks...then it would couple onto the cabin which would be on another track and then the train would leave. Blocks of cars were shuttled back and forth between Mt. Vernon and Bay View depending on use and traffic. I.E......a through train would arrive at Bay View....any cars for a local train on the N.C. branch would be cut out and shuttled over to Mt. Vernon...the next day the local train's engine would arrange the cars for set outs...and then when ready...go from there..... In bound cars were the reverse. The locals engine and cabin were probably also used for the shuttle movements. In Conrail years this local worked out of Bay View and might still do so. Getting long winded here...better go... Til Later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 00:25:25 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] What is it? Another amazing thing about this car is it still exists. It's located in Geigertown Pa . Has been repainted in a PRR style the last time I saw it. Ken McCorry ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "N Campbell" Subject: Re: [PRR] What is it? Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 10:05:09 -0500 That car is a clearence car -----Original Message----- > >An image was recently posted to A.B.P.R. by Bill Waller. Picture was >taken in Perryville, MD sometime in the late 50's. Perhaps someone in >this group can identify this tail end car. I have no clue. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 11:45:15 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [OPSIG] Re: adding the CABIN.. In a message dated 98-11-07 21:54:01 EST, you write: << According to first-person accounts I've read, the crew would be in the cabin car as it would roll down the slope and couple onto the train. I wonder how many times they missed. Now for my question: how did they connect the brake hoses when they did this? It seems that reaching down from the platform to do this would be dangerous. John Keel >> ***Yes, crew had to be on the cabin, release handbrake, roll down. Try to couple to standing train semi-gently, so as not to spill the coffee..!! Can wind up handbrake again for control and tighten as need be. Release after coupling, climb down, make hoses, make air test, and go. Prototype cars - unlike models - will roll VERY easily. .like model ball bearing axles that are coming out now........Bill***** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "N Campbell" Subject: Re: [PRR] What is it? Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 10:05:09 -0500 That car is a clearence car -----Original Message----- > >An image was recently posted to A.B.P.R. by Bill Waller. Picture was >taken in Perryville, MD sometime in the late 50's. Perhaps someone in >this group can identify this tail end car. I have no clue. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 16:43:47 -0800 Subject: [PRR] PRR cars to the VGN From: staffsgtyork@juno.com Howzit? Greetings from Eldersburg Maryland. Wanna ask if any of you boxcar gurus out there can answer this question for me. Bowser has a lot of PRR round top boxes painted for the Pennsy, and a few for roads that they sold the round tops to later on. My question is: Did the Pennsy sell any round tops to the Virginian Railway? I would love to model this car if it exists. I know the VGN had PS1 boxes, and that is all I know. And on second thought--has anyone tried any of Walthers VGN and PRR decals lately? The newer ones are supposed to be thin and nicely done. I did see the Penn Central (no hissing) ones--the art work and quality was good. Thanks, SGT York ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 19:30:59 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bottle Trains - how hot...???? In a message dated 98-11-07 21:49:27 EST, you write: << Just a little bit of lore about hot metal trains, a railroad civil engineer I know once remarked that when those things derail and the hot metal spills, the rails . . . melt! John Bobsin >> *****Hi, John... When I did my 1986 "Chicagoland trip" ( thanks to John Swjakart's maps and info..), I got set up to catch a bottle train at Calumet. I set up to get a good near shot as it went northward (geogr) around a curve toward the interlocking. I was pretty close to the tracks.... How hot was it....?? When I got back for dinner, my wife wanted to know where I got a tan in Chicago..!!!...bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 19:31:18 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Cabins part II Hello again folks.... I just got finished talking to my dad..He started working for PC right after the merger....PC did things like the PRR did just after the merger (at least on the eastern region anyway).... So...he told me this.... At Bay View yard in Baltimore....there were two cabin car tracks.... One was near the pit tracks (engine ready tracks) and the other was near the hump office. Cabins near the pit tracks were for trains that were to go out....road engines for a given train would pull the cabin for that train and couple it onto the train, then the engines would run around the train and couple on, pump air and test and off they went. Cabins near the hump office were added to trains with a switch engine...probably one of the hump engines. He told me that at Enola...cabins were sometimes arranged by their regional assignments...and spotted so on the "pimple track" then just before your train was to leave your cabin would be let loose and rolled down to the train...Dad said that Enola had switch tenders working there when he was in freight service...so a road crew did'nt have to do the switching....Also he made mention of a light signal system that was used for road crews to let them know what was going on at the back of the train....In the days before radio if a train was too long to see the back end of it they needed some way of knowing what was going on...so this signal system was used.... somehow he said that you could run your cabin to more than one track... and that the signal system could also be used to designate which track you were to drift to. He also made mention of the way they used to cut cars out of a long train on the Port road...Not having radios and since the cabins little whistle was too hard to hear from the head end...the engineer could tell from the train air if a car was cut out...in...or when to push the car off on a siding. Naturally you would know sometimes as the train would go into emergency. I really need to get him on this list.... Til Later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Leary" Subject: [PRR] Kato's RS-2 Diesel Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 20:41:06 -0500 Hello, My apologies if the following questions have already been addressed; regarding Kato's RS-2 Diesel can you please answer the following: 1) would the undecorated RS-2 serve as a "very accurate model" for Pennsy's RS-2 engine? 2) Kato's RS-2 comes decorated for the Delaware & Hudson RR; according to John D. Hahn, Jr's book the "PRR - Diesel Locomotive Pictorial - Volume 1 - ALCo RS series", Pennsy's RS-1's were all purchased from D&H. So, it appears that this model would be best for repainting into a Pennsy RS-2 -- is this a correct assumptions? 3) any thoughts on why Kato did not produce a PRR lettered model? Thank you in advance for your comments. Sincerely, Greg Leary (electronically signed) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 20:33:12 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: adding the CABIN.. It has been prohibited for years (and unnecessary) but according to accounts of pre-electric Grand Central Depot, inbound locomotives would drop their trains and run ahead out of the way, whereon the cars full of passengers would roll into the station, to be stopped by the crews using just the hand brakes. Steve Bartlett > << According to first-person accounts I've read, the crew would be in the > cabin > car as it would roll down the slope and couple onto the train. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 21:22:16 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bottle Trains - how hot...???? Regarding the question on how long a loaded car could be left standing and still be able to pour it's contents I've been told depending on how thick the refractory brick is ( it gets thinner per load ) 24 hours is the general time allotted. This from Jim Kerner who helped with the Steel Series book written by Dean Freytag. Ken McCorry ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TodEngine@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 20:48:35 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bottle Trains - how hot...???? In a message dated 98-11-08 19:52:14 EST, you write: > Just a little bit of lore about hot metal trains, a railroad > civil engineer I know once remarked that when those things derail > and the hot metal spills, the rails . . . melt! John Bobsin >> > > *****Hi, John... > When I did my 1986 "Chicagoland trip" ( thanks to John Swjakart's maps and > info..), I got set up to catch a bottle train at Calumet. I set up to get a > good near shot as it went northward (geogr) around a curve toward the > interlocking. > > I was pretty close to the tracks.... > > How hot was it....?? Close to 2300 to 2500 degrees. Just the other day it was rather cold and I was leaning on the side of one of our empty bottles to get warm. After a few seconds I could feel the heat through my coat. I remember aa story about a ladle car that broke out while being filled at the number two blast furnace at the Republic Steel plant in Youngstown. The iron ran all around the car and in effect welded the hot metal car to the rails and to the building columns. It took quite a while to lance through all that iron to clean up the mess. I also remember seeing an 80 ton Pollock HM car with a full load of solidified iron. Somehow they lanced it out because I looked inside the other day and it was empty. Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 21:43:45 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Kato's RS-2 Diesel On Sun, 8 Nov 1998, Greg Leary wrote: > 1) would the undecorated RS-2 serve as a "very accurate model" for Pennsy's > RS-2 engine? Presumably. If it's not the most accurate then the Stewart RS-3 ph1 would be closer (not right, certainly), and it wasn't available last I checked. > 2) Kato's RS-2 comes decorated for the Delaware & Hudson RR; according to > John D. Hahn, Jr's book the "PRR - Diesel Locomotive Pictorial - Volume 1 - > ALCo RS series", Pennsy's RS-1's were all purchased from D&H. So, it appears > that this model would be best for repainting into a Pennsy RS-2 -- is this a > correct assumptions? The D&H RS-2s were late-production RS-2s and I've seen reports that they were actually closer to RS-3s. I'll see if I can dig up the data. > 3) any thoughts on why Kato did not produce a PRR lettered model? PRR had very few RS-2s, though Kato's supposed to be doing another run of RS-2s (as well as SD-45s) at some point, perhaps PRR will be included. -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 00:14:36 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Kato's RS-2- AIN'T RIGHT Greg and all, ALCo's my specialty. I had posted information to Jerry sometime back, but I will share it with all. The PRR leased the units from the D&H in 1955 and bought the units (6) outright in 1958. They were built by ALCo under two different order numbers just as ALCo was transitioning from the RS-2 program to the RS-3 program (along with some Great Northern units) and carried the "new" characteristics of the RS-3. The most obvious is the battery boxes on the side of the short hood that had the horizontal louvers. This would become the signature for the Phase 1A RS-3. So far no one has produced this louver set to model the early type units. The units were delivered with 1500hp prime movers and RS-2 electrical components but mounted in the RS-3 cabinet, forcing the battery boxes to the rear of the unit. I have seen these and the GN units listed as both RS-2 and early RS-3 but ALCo considered them RS-2's and sold them to both companies under that agreement so... The units had primemover problems and were retro fitted with new blocks and upgraded but the horsepower remained at 1500, at least as long as they were on the PRR. If you are looking to build a "traditional" PRR RS-3 the ATLAS (good drive, cab and shell so so), STEWART (Athearn power frame for now, shell OK cab still wrong, but better than the ATLAS) or the MDC (currently P2K powered, best shell available), or Hobbytown (noisy, pulls great shell good) can be used to model this unit accurately. One of these models will accurately work for you, but the KATO AIN'T RIGHT! Leave it be it doesn't work at all for the PRR! Greg Martin ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Leary" Subject: RE: [PRR] Kato's RS-2 Diesel Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 01:12:43 -0500 Derrick, Thanks for your insight. Maybe it is best to wait for the second Kato run and see if they do a Pennsy RS-2. Thanks again. Sincerely, Greg Leary (electronically signed) > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Derrick J > Brashear > Sent: Sunday, November 08, 1998 9:44 PM > To: PRR - Talk Group > Subject: Re: [PRR] Kato's RS-2 Diesel > > > On Sun, 8 Nov 1998, Greg Leary wrote: > > > 1) would the undecorated RS-2 serve as a "very accurate model" > for Pennsy's > > RS-2 engine? > > Presumably. If it's not the most accurate then the Stewart RS-3 ph1 would > be closer (not right, certainly), and it wasn't available last I checked. > > > 2) Kato's RS-2 comes decorated for the Delaware & Hudson RR; > according to > > John D. Hahn, Jr's book the "PRR - Diesel Locomotive Pictorial > - Volume 1 - > > ALCo RS series", Pennsy's RS-1's were all purchased from D&H. > So, it appears > > that this model would be best for repainting into a Pennsy RS-2 > -- is this a > > correct assumptions? > > The D&H RS-2s were late-production RS-2s and I've seen reports that they > were actually closer to RS-3s. I'll see if I can dig up the data. > > > 3) any thoughts on why Kato did not produce a PRR lettered model? > > PRR had very few RS-2s, though Kato's supposed to be doing another run of > RS-2s (as well as SD-45s) at some point, perhaps PRR will be included. > > -D > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Leary" Subject: RE: [PRR] Kato's RS-2- AIN'T RIGHT Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 01:12:36 -0500 Greg, Thanks for your response. However, I still have a question (and my apology if you addressed this in your email below): what is wrong with the Delaware & Hudson Kato unit that makes it an incorrect model for using it as a Pennsy model? Are you saying part of the problem is with the battery boxes on the engine? Sorry if I am being "dense" but, I don't understand from your writing what is wrong with the Kato D&H/Pennsy model. Can you please clarify? Thanks. (P.S. Great name! (8>) ) Sincerely, Greg Leary (electronically signed) > -----Original Message----- > From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com [mailto:TGREGMRTN@aol.com] > Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 12:15 AM > To: greglear@bellsouth.net > Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; MEMRA@LISTSERV.DARTMOUTH.EDU; > NEMRA@LISTSERV.DARTMOUTH.EDU > Subject: Re: [PRR] Kato's RS-2- AIN'T RIGHT > > > Greg and all, > ALCo's my specialty. I had posted information to Jerry > sometime back, but I > will share it with all. > The PRR leased the units from the D&H in 1955 and bought the units (6) > outright in 1958. They were built by ALCo under two different > order numbers > just as ALCo was transitioning from the RS-2 program to the RS-3 program > (along with some Great Northern units) and carried the "new" > characteristics > of the RS-3. The most obvious is the battery boxes on the side > of the short > hood that had the horizontal louvers. This would become the > signature for the > Phase 1A RS-3. So far no one has produced this louver set to > model the early > type units. The units were delivered with 1500hp prime movers and RS-2 > electrical components but mounted in the RS-3 cabinet, forcing the battery > boxes to the rear of the unit. I have seen these and the GN > units listed as > both RS-2 and early RS-3 but ALCo considered them RS-2's and sold > them to both > companies under that agreement so... The units had primemover > problems and > were retro fitted with new blocks and upgraded but the horsepower > remained at > 1500, at least as long as they were on the PRR. > If you are looking to build a "traditional" PRR RS-3 the ATLAS (good > drive, cab and shell so so), STEWART (Athearn power frame for > now, shell OK > cab still wrong, but better than the ATLAS) or the MDC (currently > P2K powered, > best shell available), or Hobbytown (noisy, pulls great shell good) can be > used to model this unit accurately. One of these models will > accurately work > for you, but the KATO AIN'T RIGHT! Leave it be it doesn't work > at all for the > PRR! > Greg Martin > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 01:34:59 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Adding the CABIN CAR/ Caboose In a message dated 11/8/98 6:02:08 PM Central Standard Time, BPX29@aol.com writes: << Of course there's about a million variables when the train hits the road (not counting rr's like the B&O that used two cabooses on way freights). >> Didn't Indiana have a law requiring a caboose at front and back of a train? Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TodEngine@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 21:46:29 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bottle Trains - how hot...???? In a message dated 98-11-08 21:22:16 EST, you write: > Regarding the question on how long a loaded car could be left standing and > still be able to pour it's contents I've been told depending on how thick the > refractory brick is ( it gets thinner per load ) 24 hours is the general time > allotted. This from Jim Kerner who helped with the Steel Series book written > by Dean Freytag. > > Ken McCorry It varies depending upon, as you say, lining thickness and also metal temperature and how well the spout is covered. The linings are usually good for around 200 fillings, and a car with a 150 ton capacity with a new linging gradually increases in capacity to around 180 tons by the time the lining is replaced. The Mahoning Valley Railroad Heritage Assoc. in Youngstown, OH has two 125 ton capy. Treadwell hot metal cars as well as an open top hot metal car in our collection, in case anyone would like to crawl inside and see what the interior of a bottle car looks like. Just let me know and I'll arrange it. Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 01:53:13 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Kato's RS-2- AIN'T RIGHT Greg Leary and all, The RS-2 as designed by Ray... ( his last name escapes me right now) from GE had designed the RS-2 to have the cab somewhat level with the frame, thus, the top of the cab height was the same for the RS-3 and the RS-2's windows were taller. With the electrical control panel going below the cab floor the batteries were moved to the boxes behind the cab making the windows shorter on the RS-3. The RS-2 had taller windows in the cab and the floor height was lower. So, PRR's ex-D&H units looked like an RS-3 not the same as the KATO RS-2. I could go on about the PRR RS-3 having the extra box in front of the fireman's side of the cab, but we talking about the RS-2 and you can fall back and read my article on the PRR RS-3 in MAINLINE MODELER. Unlike Jim Six's article, I used the MDC which was an easier conversion then using the ATLAS as JIM did. Kato's RS-2 is beautiful and is worthy of a look, but better for the B&M or the NH (which was freight geared) or perhaps the GM&O. Remember the RS-2 was the Locomotive that forced EMD's hand to produce the GP-7. Greg Martin ALCo Lives! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Nov 98 7:18:35 EST From: Subject: [PRR] Cabin whistles? Hank Mummert, quoting his dad, wrote, "Not having radios and since the cabins little whistle was too hard to hear from the head end...the engineer could tell from the train air if a car was cut out..." Could some one please elaborate on this whistle in the cabins thing. Was this a feature on all cabins or specific types only. When/where did this feature originate? Where was this whistle located? Thanks in advance, Kris ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 08:09:51 -0500 From: Doug Hunt Subject: [PRR] replacement drive for Tyco RF-16 To all, 1) Yes, I know that there are better models of RF-16's to be had. 2) Yes, I know that the Tyco shells are not proportioned quite right and the detail is lacking. 3) Having said this, I would like to know, is there a suitable drive that could be used to replace the awful Tyco power-truck? I am wondering about Model Power, or possibly Athearn. I am not interested in shortening or lengthening frames/wheelbases. In the event of an Athearn substitution, what about truck sideframes? Tyco's are too long. One of my sharks has Blomberg truck sideframes. What were they thinking????? Thanks for the help, DOUG ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cschlund@sfsu.edu Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 09:31:00 Subject: [PRR] Obs car on Jeffersonian in sunnyside yard Hi list members, While looking for something completely different, I came across this Library of Congress photo showing the (streamlined) obs car on the Jeffersonian at sunnyside yard. http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pnp/gsc/5a18000/5a18800/5a18824r.jpg It's outside my era of expertise, so I can't really add any useful info, but I thought you all might like to see the image. - Claus -------------------------***{}***------------------------- Claus Schlund (Shop Foreman, Bernal Heights Car & Foundry) Modeling steam-era PRR in N scale - San Francisco, CA Interested in BHC&F products? Check out our no-longer-one-and-only N scale passenger car kit at http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~cschlund/models/pullman.gif ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] replacement drive for Tyco RF-16 From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 98 09:39:08 -0500 Tyco Thinking? Isn't that an oxymoron? For the correct sideframes you might try a GE U25B. I dont know about the frame length, but Baldwin, Alco, and GE all used the same General Steel Castings trucks. To all, 1) Yes, I know that there are better models of RF-16's to be had. 2) Yes, I know that the Tyco shells are not proportioned quite right and the detail is lacking. 3) Having said this, I would like to know, is there a suitable drive that could be used to replace the awful Tyco power-truck? I am wondering about Model Power, or possibly Athearn. I am not interested in shortening or lengthening frames/wheelbases. In the event of an Athearn substitution, what about truck sideframes? Tyco's are too long. One of my sharks has Blomberg truck sideframes. What were they thinking????? Thanks for the help, DOUG - ----------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. - ----------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:08:47 EST Subject: [PRR] Indianapolis, Hawthorne Yard, Lines West, etc Mark Bej sent me a series of notes about PRR facilities he visited while on a quick trip to Chicago. One he didn't find was Hawthorne Yard, Indianapolis: In a message dated 11/8/98 11:04:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: > I started paralleling the PRR from the beltway on in, every so many blocks > turning south to cross the PRR and B&O. But I must have missed it. Of > course, > it stands to reason that no "major" streets would cross the middle of the > yard > (too expensive to build a long bridge), so maybe that's why I did not find > it. I'm assuming the beltway you refer to is the eastern side of I-265, which is Indianapolis' "outer loop bypass" around town. Emerson Avenue south passes right throough the middle of Hawthorne (at the hump). The tricky part is that Hawthorne is quite a few blocks south of the PRR main, and still a distance south from the B&O/Amtrak main, so your "sampling" of streets didn't work. If it makes you feel any better, I haven't been there in years. When I get to Indy, I'm normally tied up downtown, or way north of town. And if I can get time, I usually head west to Avon (traitor!) to catch all the cars and interchange power. Speculation - I'd guess that somewhere around World War I, the Pennsy/Panhandle's traffic was overflowing its old yards closer to downtown. (Note: my rail archaology in the 70s dug up nothing about these older facilities). So the PRR would have liked to build a new freight yard along the main line. The desirable place to do this would have been from Panhandle Junction (overhead crossing of IURy's freight bypass line) out east. But this neighborhood, being in the US 40 East/Washington Street corridor, was already filled with residential neighborhoods. Thus, logical guesswork says that Hawthorne Yard was built in a greenfield site offset south a mile or more off the PRR main (and south of the B&O/onetime ERIE main from Hamilton OH). Hawthorne's eastern end connection angled down southwest from Thorne tower on the Panhandle main east. So this is where trains from Pittsburgh, Columbus, Cincinnati, Bradford, Dayton et al would enter the yard. Thorne's site is immediately east of I-265, south of Washington Street. The connection passes under the B&O, according to the Steam Powered Video map I'm looking at. At its western end, Hawthorne wyed into the aforementioned Indianapolis Union Railway freight bypass line at Hamilton Junction, south of Panhandle Jct and south of Pine Jct (B&O/Amtrak, still in existence). Thus, it did not even contribute a line running into IU's Union Station trackage downtown, as traffic to and from the west should have been going around downtown on the IURy's bypass line. West end traffic would have been St Louis, Peoria, Chicago/Logansport, Louisville, a coal branch to Vincennes, and transfer traffic to all other Indy yards. I believe Hawthorne's "add-on" nature is what made it hard for you to find by normal "railfan search" techniques. BTW, I need to know more about steam era Hawthorne, but if there were pictures of the engine facilities, they should show Lines West Consolidations, L-1s, and possibly J-1s. Later, pictures show Hawthorne was home to 2400 hp transfer diesels (the Lima ones?), sometimes shown working the hump at Emerson Ave. By the time I got there, it was all PC EMD geeps and switchers. > > BTW, the freight schedules mention a Transfer Yard. Where was that? This sounds familiar, but I can't find it on my maps. I'll keep looking. Rick Tipton PRRLWF (PRR Lines West Fanatic) Louisville KY ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:51:12 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Schoenberg Subject: [PRR] Found Train (fwd) Hi all, I got this e-mail and don't have an answer... Can anyone on the list help out? Please copy Tine at busyyears@aol.com on any responses! Rob ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 20:46:21 EST From: BusyYears@aol.com To: robs@railfan.net Subject: Found Train Hello, Hi My name is Tina and I am writing for my son who found doing a school project a model of an old Lionel Train with the numbers 238E on the side of it. I found out that it was a replica of a PRR Torpedo Train. Lionel I believed made it between 1936-1938. I was wondering if you could give us any information on the train that it modeled. For example, what kind where it went was it a passenger train, the fares it would cost to ride it etc. Anything at all would be helpful. He has to write a paper on the train he found and we thought it would be interesting if he could also write what it represented. Thanks for all your help. Tina. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:43:51 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Adding the CABIN CAR/ Caboose I remember reading in Nickel Plate Story about that Indiana law requiring a 6th brakeman on trains larger the 69 cars. RickTipton@aol.com on 11/09/98 09:08:43 AM To: Bobspf@aol.com, PRR-Talk@dsop.com, MEMRA@LISTSERV.DARTMOUTH.EDU cc: charles_castner.parti@pcusa.org, klusk@cube3.net (bcc: Randy Williamson/Marathon) Subject: Re: [PRR] Adding the CABIN CAR/ Caboose In a message dated 11/9/98 5:55:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bobspf@aol.com writes: > Didn't Indiana have a law requiring a caboose at front and back of a train? > > Bob Zoeller > Or was Indiana the state requiring a 6th brakeman on trains of more than 69 cars? Such a law (if true) would logically lead to those distinctive rider cars on the Monon, cabooses on both ends of trains on the B&O, and probably other interesting approaches to getting one more seat up front. Anybody know the truth? What I've written is no more than secondhand talk. Rick Tipton Louisville, KY (Gateway to what's left of Hoosier railroading). ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:08:43 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Adding the CABIN CAR/ Caboose In a message dated 11/9/98 5:55:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bobspf@aol.com writes: > Didn't Indiana have a law requiring a caboose at front and back of a train? > > Bob Zoeller > Or was Indiana the state requiring a 6th brakeman on trains of more than 69 cars? Such a law (if true) would logically lead to those distinctive rider cars on the Monon, cabooses on both ends of trains on the B&O, and probably other interesting approaches to getting one more seat up front. Anybody know the truth? What I've written is no more than secondhand talk. Rick Tipton Louisville, KY (Gateway to what's left of Hoosier railroading). ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:28:31 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin whistles? ---kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL wrote: > > Hank Mummert, quoting his dad, wrote, > > "Not having radios and since the cabins little whistle > was too hard to hear from the head end...the engineer could tell from > the train air if a car was cut out..." > > Could some one please elaborate on this whistle in the cabins thing. Was > this a feature on all cabins or specific types only. When/where did this > feature originate? Where was this whistle located? Don't know what Hank's dad is referring to, but I do know that PRR used a portable whistle arrangement on cabooses and passenger cars which were involved in reverse movements in stations and across public grade crossings. The basic idea was an air hose that attached to the train line on the rear of the caboose or lasy passenger car. The hose was long enough to allow the whistle and its control valve to be hung on the rear handrail of the caboose, or on the gate or safety chains across the rear vestibule of the passenger car. I suppose the engineer could tell what the whistle was doing by watching the air gauge. I believe I saw these on the rear car of passenger trains which had backed into the Union Station in Pittsburgh. I know I've seen them deployed on cabooses, but I can't think where. This dates back into the '40s and maybe very early '50s. I believe there is something in the rulebook regarding when and where the air whistles were to be used. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 13:09:49 -0500 From: "R. Vogel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bottle Trains - how hot...???? How does that lancing operation work? What sort of lances are used? TodEngine@aol.com wrote: > I remember aa story about a ladle car that broke out while being filled at the > number two blast furnace at the Republic Steel plant in Youngstown. The iron > ran all around the car and in effect welded the hot metal car to the rails and > to the building columns. It took quite a while to lance through all that iron > to clean up the mess. > > I also remember seeing an 80 ton Pollock HM car with a full load of solidified > iron. Somehow they lanced it out because I looked inside the other day and it > was empty. > > Rick > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 13:10:19 -0500 From: "R. Vogel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bottle Trains - how hot...???? How does that lancing operation work? What sort of lances are used? TodEngine@aol.com wrote: > > > I remember aa story about a ladle car that broke out while being filled at the > number two blast furnace at the Republic Steel plant in Youngstown. The iron > ran all around the car and in effect welded the hot metal car to the rails and > to the building columns. It took quite a while to lance through all that iron > to clean up the mess. > > I also remember seeing an 80 ton Pollock HM car with a full load of solidified > iron. Somehow they lanced it out because I looked inside the other day and it > was empty. > > Rick > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 12:43:16 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Indianapolis, Hawthorne Yard, Lines West, etc From: caylorman@juno.com (asdf a asdf) I believe Transfer Yard is right behind the GM Bus Factory. You can see the approach to it from I-70 West, starting under the bridge for Holt Rd. (CP Holt) and going toward the east. I have never seen the yard completely, but have caught glimpses of it from I-70 between trailers in a parking lot along the north side of the Interstate. BTW, what were all of the yards that once existed in Indy? I am aware of Hawthorne & Transfer for PRR, and Moorefield for the B&O. Avon was for NYC, but wasn't Middle Hill near Beech Grove theirs as well? Who owned Westside yard too? I know it was their at one time, because I have a NYC (sorry) ETT for Indianapolis Terminal & it names it. I also read something in one of my PRR ETTs about Caven Yard District. Does anyone know where this is? Anyway, sorry for being so long-winded, but I live about 20 minutes from downtown Indy & I have wanted to do a little research myself there. Thanks, E.J. Caylor ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 12:47:24 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Adding the CABIN CAR/ Caboose From: caylorman@juno.com (asdf a asdf) I believe it was Indiana that had the rider car law for trains with over 70 cars. E.J. Caylor ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 15:51:58 -0500 From: tmahon@cfnh.com (Tom Mahon) Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin whistles? robert netzlof wrote: > > ---kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL wrote: > > > > Hank Mummert, quoting his dad, wrote, > > > > "Not having radios and since the cabins little > whistle > > was too hard to hear from the head end...the > engineer could tell from > > the train air if a car was cut out..." > > > > Could some one please elaborate on this whistle in > the cabins thing. Was > > this a feature on all cabins or specific types > only. When/where did this > > feature originate? Where was this whistle located? > > Don't know what Hank's dad is referring to, but I do > know that PRR used a portable whistle arrangement on > cabooses and passenger cars which were involved in > reverse movements in stations and across public grade > crossings. > > The basic idea was an air hose that attached to the > train line on the rear of the caboose or lasy > passenger car. The hose was long enough to allow the > whistle and its control valve to be hung on the rear > handrail of the caboose, or on the gate or safety > chains across the rear vestibule of the passenger car. > > I suppose the engineer could tell what the whistle > was doing by watching the air gauge. > > I believe I saw these on the rear car of passenger > trains which had backed into the Union Station in > Pittsburgh. I know I've seen them deployed on > cabooses, but I can't think where. This dates back > into the '40s and maybe very early '50s. > > I believe there is something in the rulebook > regarding when and where the air whistles were to be > used. > > === > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > I think Bob is on target here. I saw these whistles used on the PRS-L Grenloch Branch when the train was returning to Camden. The whistle was used to warn the grade crossing and assorted pesky kids putting pennies on the track to clear off. They appeared to be permanently attached on the rail of the cabin, but I was younger then and not really paying attention to those details. Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TodEngine@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 16:59:39 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin whistles? In a message dated 98-11-09 08:42:37 EST, you write: > Hank Mummert, quoting his dad, wrote, > > "Not having radios and since the cabins little whistle > was too hard to hear from the head end...the engineer could tell from > the train air if a car was cut out..." > > Could some one please elaborate on this whistle in the cabins thing. Was > this a feature on all cabins or specific types only. When/where did this > feature originate? Where was this whistle located? > > Thanks in advance, > Are we talking about the backup whistles or the brake release valve whistles that were on the AB valves? Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 16:30:34 EST Subject: [PRR] LCL Shipping - early container cars When talking PRR and LCL - don't forget those early - pre WW 2 - prr cars with lift off containers Believe Red Ball made HO models years ago - have seen "O" scale models which, I believe were from 1939 World's Fair layout Dick Ross Cleveland ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TodEngine@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 17:00:55 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bottle Trains (was ? about Panhandle in Chicago) 36 hours is about as long as you would want to keep hot metal in a mixer car. After that you start getting severe skulling on the opening. Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TodEngine@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 17:32:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] LCL Shipping - early container cars In a message dated 98-11-09 17:22:04 EST, you write: > When talking PRR and LCL - don't forget those early - pre WW 2 - prr cars > with > lift off containers Believe Red Ball made HO models years ago - have seen "O" > > scale models which, I believe were from 1939 World's Fair layout > Dick Ross > Cleveland Youngstown Steel Door manufactured LCL containers in several sizes and types. They were placed in gondola cars for transport. A couple of years ago I found an unused LCL container in YSD's back lot. With a little work that container is now in our organization's collection, an example of an early method of containerization. How many other LCL containers are preserved? Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 18:28:05 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Cabin car whistles Hi You All.... Gee i though a lot of you guys would know that cabin cars had whistles. Here are some references for pictures that show them..... I think PRR cars had them on only one platform though.....other roads cars sometimes had two. PRR color guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment Vol. 2 on page 96...top picture of cabin no. 477076 you will see a little pipe sticking up between the crash post and the side post...thats the cabin whistle.... also on page 98 top picture of no. 477381, bottom picture same page of no. 477730 on the right side. page 99 middle picture of no. 477746 on the left between the crash post and side post. This one shows up well. page 101 of N-5c no.477865 and no.477886 both on same page. page 107 of N-8 no. 478159 bottom picture...just below brakeman's hand. page 110 of N-6b no. 492401 in M of W service ...between the door and the left window... PRR color guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment Vol. 1 page 96....NDa 479815...left hand platform...near brake wheel same page...bottom picture of N-5 no. 477144...lefthand platform page 99...N-5c no. 477947....shows well in this picture..again between crash post and side post. next page no.100 of N-5c no. 477982...same area page 102...middle picture of N-6b no. 980184....on the right platform just to the right of the brake wheel...where the trees are in the back ground...hard to see. Now on page 103 in the top picture of N-8 no. 478134 it looks as though it has been mounted on the end wall just to the left of the door. You can see the pipe coming out of the floor. On page 118 of PRR's rare N-4 no. 492415 (M of W no.) its located on the platform just to the right of the brake wheel...above the red marker flag and near the right window. I hope this helps with cabin whistle locations. Also once when i rode with dad on a extra passenger train that was used to go from 30th st. station Philly to Delaware Park race track, this train had a back up air hose with a whistle on it on the last car. When going into Delaware Park...the train headed south on the NEC main. To keep the GG-1 from being trapped on the wrong end of the train for departure back-up movements had to be made....usually after the passengers had gotten off the train and were at the park. But sometimes this was done on departure with the train full of passengers. I do remember that one switch to Delaware Park was a southward facing trailing point switch...maybe part of a wye that was run off the main... I also recall Business cars standing in 30th st. station that would have the same type of hose set up on the rear platform. hope this clears things up. Til Later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 17:53:16 -0500 (EST) From: bobr@tridelta.com (Bob Rothrock) Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin whistles? At 10:28 AM 11/9/98 -0800, robert netzlof wrote: > > >The basic idea was an air hose that attached to the >train line on the rear of the caboose or lasy >passenger car. The hose was long enough to allow the >whistle and its control valve to be hung on the rear >handrail of the caboose, or on the gate or safety >chains across the rear vestibule of the passenger car. > >Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > Bob: I also recall seeing a whistle plumbed into the air lines on an N-6 cabin car that I used to bum rides on as a kid. The pipe ran up the outside of the back wall and the whistle could be operated by train service personnel standing on the platform. I don't know if the cars were originally built that way or if someone suggested modifying them...but my recollection is that the whistle was a permanent fixture, at least on that car. Bob Rothrock ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Cullen" Subject: [PRR] Hi: New to List Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 18:54:02 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01BE0C12.5163EB40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Guys, Just joined the list and wanted to say hello. By way of introduction, my = name is Jim Cullen from Frederick, Maryland(I was born and raised in = Philadelphia). I just got back into n-scale model railroading last year = and of course I choose to represent the PRR. I freelance model two = fictitious divisions of the great PRR. Quite an enjoyable hobby. I'm = still learning a lot as I go along. Thanks. Jim Cullen Elizabeth and Austin Divisions of the PRR: http://members.tripod.com/~JimCullen =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01BE0C12.5163EB40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Guys,
Just joined the list and wanted to say hello. By way = of=20 introduction, my name is Jim Cullen from Frederick, Maryland(I was born = and=20 raised in Philadelphia).  I just got back into n-scale model = railroading=20 last year and of course I choose to represent the PRR.  I freelance = model=20 two fictitious divisions of the great PRR.  Quite an enjoyable = hobby. =20 I'm still learning a lot as I go along.  Thanks.  Jim=20 Cullen
Elizabeth and Austin = Divisions of the=20 PRR:
  http://members.trip= od.com/~JimCullen

 
------=_NextPart_000_0048_01BE0C12.5163EB40-- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 12:52:52 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Indianapolis, Hawthorne Yard, Lines West, etc From: caylorman@juno.com (asdf a asdf) One more question...Where was Panhandle Jct.? What is it's name now? E.J. Caylor ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TodEngine@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 20:24:46 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin car whistles Apparently many of the members of this list have never been on, or paid much attention to the platform of a caboose, for on 90% of the cabs I have been on, they either had whistles or provisions for whistles on both ends. Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry and Phyllis Morgan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Found Train (fwd) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 20:17:27 -0500 If I understand it, the Streamlined K-4 described was designed to pull the BROADWAY LIMITED from New York City to Chicago in the late 1930's. It may have occurred along with the Fleet of Modernism, lightweight passenger cars. I will leave ticket prices to others. Larry Morgan Greenfield IN -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Robert Schoenberg Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 11:51 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Found Train (fwd) Hi all, I got this e-mail and don't have an answer... Can anyone on the list help out? Please copy Tine at busyyears@aol.com on any responses! Rob ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 20:46:21 EST From: BusyYears@aol.com To: robs@railfan.net Subject: Found Train Hello, Hi My name is Tina and I am writing for my son who found doing a school project a model of an old Lionel Train with the numbers 238E on the side of it. I found out that it was a replica of a PRR Torpedo Train. Lionel I believed made it between 1936-1938. I was wondering if you could give us any information on the train that it modeled. For example, what kind where it went was it a passenger train, the fares it would cost to ride it etc. Anything at all would be helpful. He has to write a paper on the train he found and we thought it would be interesting if he could also write what it represented. Thanks for all your help. Tina. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 21:07:52 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: LCL Shipping - early container cars In a message dated 11/9/98 4:22:04 PM Central Standard Time, VVA249@aol.com writes: << Believe Red Ball made HO models years ago >> Those were NYC models, I believe. Now that Sunshine has the FM flatcar, they would seem to be a candidate to produce the PRR container car variant. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TodEngine@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 20:32:12 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bottle Trains - how hot...???? BTW, while on the subject of hot metal cars, anyone remember the 80 ton Precision Scale Pollock hot metal cars that came out a few years ago in HO scale? These were the ones that rode on four wheel trucks. The prototypes for these cars are at the place I work at, and although not used much we just moved one off the storage track and into the melt shop. I guess I'll watch them pour iron from it tomorrow morning. There is just something fascinating about bottle cars... Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 21:06:19 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin whistles? Real name =Back-up Hoses... In a message dated 98-11-09 14:06:27 EST, you write: << ittsburgh. I know I've seen them deployed on cabooses, but I can't think where. This dates back into the '40s and maybe very early '50s. I believe there is something in the rulebook regarding when and where the air whistles were to be used. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob >> ***Hi, Bob...Proper name is Back-up Hose, as you described, used into 1980's.. Portables Radios for all replaced them since. Neat device....push in button, get shrill to raucaus whistle ...for warning co-workers, grade crossings, etc. Start moving lever, and actually opened a valve, letting brake pipe air escape....engr could see the B.P. reduction being made by you, and know what to do by pre-arranged discussion. Back-up Bill***** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 20:07:31 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] More whistle info Hi again... In Bowser's H.O. reference manual,15th edition is a picture of N-5c no. 477989...the whistle and air pipe are on the left platform next to the crash post...you can see it just above the step. Later Guyz Hank M. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 21:09:28 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] LCL Shipping - early container cars In a message dated 11/9/98 5:30:05 PM Central Standard Time, TodEngine@aol.com writes: << Youngstown Steel Door manufactured LCL containers in several sizes and types. >> One type is made by Westerfield for use in the G22 gon. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TAN: "Merchandise Service" Update Date: Mon, 9 Nov 98 21:57:35 -0500 From: Jerry An update on "Merchandise Service": To be fair to the many other resellers on the lists, I am going to discontinue (for the most part) posting "sale" information to the lists. I do wish to remind everyone, one last time, that your purchases from "Merchandise Service" do pay for the operation of all of the lists and the "Keystone Crossings" web site. So, there is a return on your investment. There is (and has been) a "Merchandise Announce" list. It has been seldom used, until now. I now plan to make one post a week updating the subscribers about new items arriving in stock, monthly specials, etc. I urge all of you to subscribe. For subscription information, see the company site. The company site has been greatly revamped, with a new listing of vendors. We will soon offer an online searchable database of our stock. The site is at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com One final update via the list: Life Like P2K GP7's in PRR are due anyday Red Caboose X29's in PRR "REA" are in stock at $13.50 each; 12 numbers (all backorders shipped today) Red Caboose X29's in PRR "Circle Keystone" are due anyday at $13.50 each; 12 numbers We are now a Digitrax dealer (more info coming) Miracle Castings BP20's still selling like hotcakes; pre-order required! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 20:46:50 EST Subject: [PRR] Cabin Car Whistles/ Deleware Park trains Hank M. wrote: I hope this helps with cabin whistle locations. Also once when i rode with dad on a extra passenger train that was used to go from 30th st. station Philly to Delaware Park race track, this train had a back up air hose with a whistle on it on the last car. When going into Delaware Park...the train headed south on the NEC main. To keep the GG-1 from being trapped on the wrong end of the train for departure back-up movements had to be made....usually after the passengers had gotten off the train and were at the park. But sometimes this was done on departure with the train full of passengers. I do remember that one switch to Delaware Park was a southward facing trailing point switch...maybe part of a wye that was run off the main... Well, my question's not related to the whistles but to the Deleware Park trains. My uncle was a great track fan and often took me along to the park using these trains.We could catch the el at Berks St in Kensington and get to 30th St in short order, and even 35 years later I recall that service fondly. Couple of questions, though. Weren't there two trains on saturdays, each of which arrived well before the first race? And also, was there any freight traffic on the branch from the main to the track, and just how long was that line? It wasn't far from what's now called the NEC, and I can recall seeing GG1's on the main whipping along behind the back stretch. But the branch was very slow and the years have gone very fast and I don't remember that exactly. Next time I'm back east I've just got to get back to Deleware Park for old times sake. Regards, Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 22:56:40 EST Subject: [PRR] Changes in Cleveland....an award for CR's Hagen... ***The Short Line In Cleveland, OH has been re-configured. A new CP-3 installed, signals moo-ved, changed, etc....details from the ConRail Technical Society.... AND, also reported......The RPI ( Rwy Progress Institute) has bestowed its first ever lifetime achievement award upon Jim Hagen of CR..... Ummm, if CR was / did so good, how come........ the 'New" owners are now Promising / planning / rebuilding / restoring / revitalizing some of the exact same physical plant and local service that CR so readily and willfully destroyed..... Back-to-real-railroading Bill, Modeling the Bonhamtown Branch East of the US Route #1 Crossing in G Gauge, outdoors with actual and prototypical weeds, old tires, stray cats, rusted PL signals, etc......**** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 22:48:30 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: LCL Shipping - early container cars Folks, At least the one I picked up a few years ago is an NYC version, though I think there was also a Pennsy version. It's a very heavy car, using metal castings and wood blocks, and it definitely needs plastic trucks to hold the weight down a mite. The instructions say it was a passenger service car and should be painted Pullman green, but I don't know enough about the Central to verify that, if anyone cares. Barry P ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 22:47:34 -0500 From: steve long Subject: [PRR] Indianapolis Towers Here's a Jpeg of a sketch I did of the towers that were in Indianapolis. Hawthorne is off the map to the right. I hope it helps Steve Long ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 19:20:57 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Adding the CABIN CAR/ Caboose From: padraice@JUNO.COM (Patrick M Egan) A job to be filled on model railroads is thus announced - bean counters. Come to think of it, don't wives normally hold that job? Congratulations on electing a classy governor in Minnesota! I wish we had one of those in Illinois. They should have run Dennis Rodman... Pat Egan (no web access) On Sat, 7 Nov 1998 08:32:10 EST BPX29@aol.com writes: >Folks, >Seems there's a number of ways to add the way car to a freight, but >the >preferred method is tacking the caboose to the train. Railroads have >never >been fond of wasting money, and moving a whole train costs a lot more >than >moving one car. At least in originating yards, this would be the >preferred >approach. Of course there's about a million variables when the train >hits the >road (not counting rr's like the B&O that used two cabooses on way >freights). >But a good example would be the AT&SF operation one of the fellas is >doing at >the San Bernidino (?) division point, where trains switch cabooses and >crews. >There was a thread on assigned cabooses a while back, it seems. I'd >make a >sizable bet old John Santa Fe wasn't pushing trains onto their new >cabooses >and pulling whole trains off the old one. >As I mentioned once before, figuring in costs on a prototype basis >would put a >whole new light on our operations. >Barry Peltier >St. Paul (home of Jesse the Body Ventura), MN > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 7:22:35 EST From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin car whistles Unfortuantely for me I am not as lucky as you have been to ride or stand on many cabin cars. And even the times I have stood on one I never knew they existed so please pardon me and probably several others for our shear ignorance and stupidity (or maybe I was just looking at or standing on the 10% of cabins that weren't equipped with whistle piping). I am a detail fanatic and from now on out I will make it a point to 'pay attention' to look for such details. Thanks to certain people on the list they have not only made me aware of my inattention to detail but they also gave a good list of references so I can research and educate myself. Kris ------------- Original Text From: , on 11/9/98 8:24 PM: Apparently many of the members of this list have never been on, or paid much attention to the platform of a caboose, for on 90% of the cabs I have been on, they either had whistles or provisions for whistles on both ends. Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:34:40 -0500 (EST) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin whistles? Real name =Back-up Hoses... On Mon, 9 Nov 1998 PRRSignals@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 98-11-09 14:06:27 EST, you write: > > << ittsburgh. I know I've seen them deployed on > cabooses, but I can't think where. This dates back > into the '40s and maybe very early '50s. > > I believe there is something in the rulebook > regarding when and where the air whistles were to be > used. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob >> > > ***Hi, Bob...Proper name is Back-up Hose, as you described, used into 1980's.. > Portables Radios for all replaced them since. Neat device....push in button, > get shrill to raucaus whistle ...for warning co-workers, grade crossings, etc. > Start moving lever, and actually opened a valve, letting brake pipe air > escape....engr could see the B.P. reduction being made by you, and know what > to do by pre-arranged discussion. > Back-up Bill***** Conrail Local FY14 - Works the Walden Industrial and customers to the East of Frontier Yard in Buffalo NY still uses the back-up hose when returning to the yard (usually backs down the Main) from the A Industrial Track in Depew NY (Approx MP 428 to MP 435). Just saw it in operation last week. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > William J. Enser Co-Net Admin - Tech Supp & Validations alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:57:09 -0500 From: Charles Ring Subject: Re: [PRR] Bottle Trains (was ? about Panhandle in Chicago) TodEngine@aol.com wrote: > > 36 hours is about as long as you would want to keep hot metal in a mixer car. > After that you start getting severe skulling on the opening. > > Rick > I'm surprised that long is OK. As a teenager in Niles (60's) I often saw the hot bottle (what my PRR parents called them) cars go by behind my home at the corner of Main and Maple St. Can't recall whether they were on the Erie or the B&O tracks, but if I recall rightly they were headed southeast. I don't know whether or not the PRR carried them through Niles. I wonder what length of time it was intended to take from pouring hot metal into the car at one site (always a blast furnace?) to draining at the destination, and at what length of time, due to whatever problem, people got worried. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Altoona Museum Gets The Shaft Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 12:22:42 -0500 From: Jerry The Harrisburg Patriot News, this past Sunday, had an article about goings-on at the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. The new $4 million pedestrian bridge linking the museum directly to the passenger station is not yet completed, but last month Amtrak changed their schedules, adversely affecting the museum. The museum was counting on the afternoon Amtrak train (don't recall which one) to carry passengers one-way westbound over the curve. They would then get off at Johnstown and be bussed back. The new schedule pushes all of these trains into the night hours, when a ride around the curve would be scenicly worthless. The article quoted that dozens of bus tours to the museum have cancelled...due to the change in train schedule. The article also stated that Amtrak will not consider special excursion trains just for the museum. IMHO, this is perhaps both a good thing and a bad thing for the museum. While immediately bad, it may prompt them to pursue what I think is their best avenue in the long run: getting into the excursion business themselves! True, it would require the cooperation of the Norfolk Southern, but I can't image that one excursion train a day would break their backs. They could set it up like RailFest: a one hour ride up, turn on the Gallitzin Loop, and back down. Now they just need working motive power and rolling stock! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:13:22 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: LCL Shipping - early container cars PRR version was tuscan red. If someone made the container casting it would be good for all eras up to now - Many containers ented up as relay boxes lineside shanties and handcar sheds Dick ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:10:43 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: [READING] Red Caboose X29's Jerry, I'll have to check down in the basement for imfo on the CNJ car, but the Reading cars were based on the very similar (at least above the side sill) USRA steel box car adopted by the NYC. The Westerfield kit is right on, even to the underframe. These cars had corrigated ends, I think the 5/5/5 USRA, though without looking I can't say they weren't Dreadnaughts. Can supply more info a bit later if you don't get a definitive answer. Aside from the NEB&W book, RMJ had a really good article. (And I even know where my copy is, for once!) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:36:34 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Adding the CABIN CAR/ Caboose Pat, If Dennis Rodman's the best Illinois can come up with, ya maybe better stick to the politicians. The adding caboose angle was more for the LDSIG folks, who like to put everything under a microscope but forget the object of a railraod is to make money. Any operating procedures that waste money will soon be reevalutated, so if a guy wants to operate with any sense of realism he can't avoid the economics of his methods. But since these guys don't know a whole lot about that angle, they pretend it's not a factor. Just seems ironic to not consider the very reason a railroad is in business while nit-picking every spike and tie to death. I try to avoid postings to that list unless they get carried away to the point I can't stand it anymore, and my hand's too numb from hitting the delete key. B.P. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:03:07 -0500 Subject: [PRR] THI&E From: caylorman@juno.com (E.J. Caylor) Can anyone tell me where the THI&E Interurban line ran through Greencastle? I was wondering if the old station is still in existence. E.J. Caylor ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:08:39 EST Subject: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) Mark Bej and E.J. Caylor have been asking some good questions about Indianapolis-area yards and some of the relevant towers. As you all know by now, I'm very fond of Mike Walker's railfan atlases of the US, published in Britain by Steam Powered Video. So IMHO the map to start with is Mike's IN-12a on page 17 of the GLE (Great Lakes East) volume. What I'm going to do is to walk us clockwise around the Indianapolis Union Railway's freight belt line, listing junctions, connecting railroads, and where various roads' yards are located. Since I don't know everything there is to know about Indy and its railroads, there may be some errors, which I expect to get corrections on. So be forewarned, this is a work in progress- ABOUT THE IU Ry. The Indianapolis Union Railway was a terminal company put together to build a Union Station at Indianapolis. It was owned by PRR and NYC predecessors, and so presents an interesting blend of their practices. A sample: - Union Station headhouse a red PRR-style Richardsonian Romanesque castle - Union Station trainshed a green-copper shed very similar to NYC Erie PA station - Elevation concretework like other PRR Lines West elevation projects at Dayton and Columbus - Diesel switchers in an NYC-inspired paint. For example, black SW1500's with a white frame stripe. - PRR position-light signals and signal bridges, painted black. Presumably the whole signal plant is PRR-standard US&S. The IU operated three facilities of note: 1. The Union Station itself. 2. A right-of-way (2 tracks or more) that collected passenger trains from the north, east, and south sides of downtown, ran them into the station (via a huge interlocking named IU Jct., what else), crossed the White River, and distributed them back to their various home lines west of the river. 3. To avoid congestion in the station area, a freight bypass line that connected all the same railroads, but carried their freight traffic around Union Station on a right of way that ran perhaps 1.5 miles south of the Union Station. This bypass line seems to be referred to as "The Belt Line" or "The IU Belt Railway". It was mostly double track, grade separated from the street grid, and highly industrialized over its length. TRACING THE INDIANAPOLIS UNION's BELT RAILWAY BELT JUNCTION (MON/CIL from Chicago, N&W/NKP/LE&W from Tipton) We can start on Indy's north side, where the bypass started at BELT JUNCTION. Here, the Monon came in from Chicago, Monon, and Carmel, along the west side of the Indiana State Fairgrounds and straight south to BELT JCT. The Monon once continued south to a downtown yard that supported black-and-gold RS-3's (RS-2's ?) that sounded like they would die any minute. I don't know the name of this yard and enginehouse, but it disappeared under I-65 construction sometime post-1970, after becoming part of the L&N. Remember that until 1956(?) the Monon was the Chicago, Indianapolis, and Louisville Railroad, with reporting marks CIL. Again at BELT JCT, we would pick up the Nickel Plate. Originally a Lake Erie & Western branch ("Leave Early and Walk", the newspapers jeered), this line came from Michigan City, via Plymouth, Peru, Kokomo, Tipton, and Noblesville, following the White River south into Indy. The Nickel Plate also once had a downtown yard southward alongside the Monon's, but that site too is lost to freeway construction. In more recent times, the NKP/N&W operated into a yard on the eastern boundary of the state fairgrounds. This may or may not be called FAIRGROUNDS YARD. DX or CP280 (CCC&StL from Cleveland) Running almost east from BELT JUNCTION, the Belt crosses the Big Four Main at CP280. This major NYC line comes from Cleveland/Berea, across Ohio through Marion, into Indiana at Union City, and approaches Indy from the northwest on a high speed double track alignment. The map suggests there used to be a yard outside the Belt at Brightwood. EASTSIDE (P&E from New Castle IN) The Belt continues east until it meets the Peoria and Eastern (P&E) at EASTSIDE. The P&E comes into Indy from the east, having missed every town of size between there and its starting point in Springfield OH. Nowadays, of course, the P&E's grain elevator business is history, and there is only a line segment left here that goes out to the suburbs to serve several factories. Beyond HUNTER IN, it's abandoned. Note that on Mike's map, it's shown as a CCC&StL (Big Four) line. But although P&E was in the NYC family, it wasn't 100% owned. Therefore I reason it probably wasn't part of the Big Four. Most maps show it as distinctly separate P&E, does anybody know the truth here? PANHANDLE JUNCTION (PRR/PCC&StL from Richmond IN) >From EASTSIDE, the Belt heads south. There it crosses US 40, and then on an overpass across the late PRR "passenger main". This line came into town straight from the east, bringing Panhandle name trains from New York, Pittsburgh, Columbus, and Dayton. Standing on the IU Belt's viaduct, you could see yard trackage west along the PRR passenger main; this must have been PINE YARD. But you could also see the interchange tracks coming up to PANHANDLE JUNCTION on the north side of the overpass over the Pennsy. The 1966 Western Region ETT restricts the track speed between PINE and PANHANDLE JUNCTION to 5 mph. Apparently PINE was a block station on the Pennsy main, possibly at the west end of PINE YARD. To add to the confusion, we will find a PINE JUNCTION nearby on the B&O (described below). In PC's Timetable No. 7 (1975), a time is given for 30 and 31 (Amtrak's National Limited by then) by PINE, but working times of 60 minutes and 35 minutes are shown for 10 and 11 (Mail). PINE YARD office is mentioned in a PRR 1966 ETT, so it probably was Pennsy's passenger yard for the Indy area. Note : Mike's map shows another named location west of here named STATE STREET. I don't remember anything about it. OTOH, I think I remember another location around here on the PRR passenger main, SPRUCE STREET. In any case, I never saw anything of this facility, except after it was a weedy lot. To finish up with PANHANDLE JUNCTION, there was also an Indianapolis Power & Light coal-fired plant somewhere close here, and its hoppers were switched off the IU Belt. PINE JUNCTION (B&O/CI&W/ERIE, Amtrak) Going on south, the IU Belt crosses the B&O main at PINE JUNCTION. This line, nowadays carrying Amtrak's Cardinal, comes from Cincinnati via Hamilton OH and Cottage Grove OH/IN. Originally belonging to an ERIE predecessor, this line is remembered as the Cincinnati & Indiana Western by steam historians, and became B&O well before dieselization. Mike's map shows no B&O yard facilities on this side of town, but there was probably once a passenger yard on this B&O line close in to the IU station trackage. I can remember a fantrip from Cincinnati that was serviced there and then went on downtown to wye at IU Junction. HAMILTON JUNCTION (PRR to HAWTHORNE YARD) Continuing south, the Belt comes to HAMILTON JUNCTION, a wye connection to the east-southeast that is the western approach to PRR's HAWTHORNE YARD. PRR's easterly freights passed into or through HAWTHORNE YARD and regained the Panhandle main via a 2 mile line to what was then the east edge of town at THORNE tower. BELT CROSSING (NYC/CCC&StL/CIC&StL to Cincinnati) Running southwest from HAMILTON, the Belt crosses the Big Four at BELT CROSSING. Just outside the Belt's line is HILL YARD, but farther out in the suburb of Beech Grove is the Big Four's BEECH GROVE SHOPS. This onetime home of NYC freight and passenger car building and program repairs had a sizeable yard on its north end for cars awaiting repairs and repainting. The Big Four line goes southeast to Cincinnati, and was double track main into PC years. We should remember that there were actually a series of "Big Fours", including the familiar Cleveland, Chicago, Cincinnati, and St. Louis, and its predecessor the Cleveland Indianapolis Cincinnati and St. Louis. Nowadays, there are no passenger trains on this line, but BEECH GROVE SHOPS is the main passenger car heavy repair facility. And in the recent past BEECH GROVE has built or finished out new cars for Amtrak and other customers. DALE (PRR/PCC&StL/JM&I/M&I to Louisville) Running on around the south side of downtown, the Belt Line comes to the PRR's Louisville Branch, former Louisville Division. This PRR line came out of Louisville KY, crossed the Ohio River into Jeffersonville, IN, and ran almost straight north through Seymour, Columbus, and Greenfield. This Louisville line had much industry north of DALE, but approached from the south through a city park. Where this single track main crossed the Belt's double track, there was a solid line of industry east and west on the Belt. In the southeast quadrant of the crossing stood a brick multistory Stokely-Van Camp canning plant with just "Van Camp" worked into the brick smokestack. Visible up and down the Belt (when I visited DALE in the 70s) there were cuts of auto high cubes parked. In the northeast quadrant of the crossing stood a one-story, basically concrete block structure, typical of PRR Lines West replacement structures of the 40s and 50s. Working DALE when I visited was one of PC's remaining female operators hired on by PRR during WWII. The Louisville Branch had no yard in the Indianapolis area. I'd bet there was once a yard near the freight house (McCarty Street?), but all signs of it were gone. The Branch ended as the tail of the IU Junction wye just east of Union Station, and must have sent its freight trains over the Belt from DALE to HAMILTON JUNCTION to HAWTHORNE for many years. SENATE AVENUE (IC to Sullivan IN) Running west from DALE, the Belt had an overpass over the south end of SENATE AVENUE YARD. Don't know the name of the three track connections here. The IC came into Indy from the south and southwest, via the southwest Indiana coal fields around Sullivan, Linton, and Switz City. IU SHOPS Running northwest, the Belt was once crossed here by the PRR Vincennes Branch. But this line received a new entry to Indy via CP HOLT just beyond KRAFT on the Panhandle main from St. Louis, and the diamond is out here. From the name, one wonders if the Indianapolis Union has/once had shops at this place. WOODS (PRR/PCC&StL/Vandalia RR to St. Louis) Northwest on the Belt, this frame tower guarded the crossing with the double track PRR to St. Louis. Inside the Belt lay what Mike's map calls WESTSIDE YARD, although my ETT calls it WEST STREET. It had become an IU yard when I fanned it. For some reason, I am under the impression that it had originally been someone else's (PRR?). In any case, Mike's map shows the yard as abandoned. And last time I visited WOODS, the building had been bulldozed away in favor of CTC. Outside the Belt was TRANSFER YARD, extending west to KRAFT. TRANSFER was always full of auto parts cars, although to my shame I don't know whose auto plant lies nearby. Note: E.J. Caylor says, "I believe Transfer Yard is right behind the GM Bus Factory. You can see the approach to it from I-70 West, starting under the bridge for Holt Rd. (CP Holt) and going toward the east." Mike's map doesn't show this, but a 1975 PC timetable has a running track of 1.4 miles, probably down the south side of TRANSFER YARD and possibly serving that auto/bus plant. It looks like this running track came off the IU belt just south of WOODS at VAN JUNCTION, and ran west to KRAFT on the PRR's St. Louis main. Veterans of our postings on Logansport will again notice that VAN JUNCTION is another place named after the Vandalia Railroad, a PCC&StL predecessor that ran from St. Louis to Indanapolis, also from Terre Haute to Logansport and on to Butler IN, where it met a Wabash predecessor. CP1 (NYC/CCC&StL to St. Louis) Straight north a short distance from WOOD tower is CP1, the crossing of the Big Four lying straight west of Union Station. Well west of the city (in fact, in the next county) lies one of the former NYC's pushbutton hump yards. This facility is near the village of Avon IN and has at times been officially called AVON YARD, but 1975 timetables and current (1998) signage at the gate both say BIG FOUR YARD. This could change again when CSX moves in. KD (B&O to Decatur, P&E to Peoria) Running north a few more blocks, the Belt crossed B&O track at the east end of B&O's MOOREFIELD YARD. The B&O line went west to Decatur IL, but CSXT has now lifted the line and the yard. Immediately, the Belt also crosses the P&E track, which used to pass through Speedway on its way out of town. But this segment also used to host the Big Four's passenger trains toward Lafayette and Chicago. The P&E line is still in only to BRANT, from which a stub of the Big Four is still worked north, but no longer reaches Lebanon IN. EDGEMONT AVENUE (CCC&StL?) >From KD, the Belt wanders north through Indianapolis' West Side; I've never been on this segment. One would assume that serving of industrial firms account for the line's survival. At a location identified on Mike's map as EDGEMONT AVENUE, it appears the Belt ended and joined with another right-of-way that used to depart IUS at its immediate west end. This mystery line ran north through the city just a couple of blocks west of the Indiana State Capitol, in the same neighborhood that was built around a canal. My guess (and that's just what it is) is that this mystery line was the original Big Four line northwest to Lebanon, Lafayette and Chicago. Something long ago cut off this line's access to Union Station, and later civic developments (the RCA dome, the Convention Center) were built on top of it. Now just in the last 5 years or less, redevelopment up the canal alignment, with snazzy apartments and new hotel space, has obliterated the rest of this right of way in the downtown area. NOT QUITE A FULL CIRCLE It is interesting that the IU Belt Line was built seven eighths of the way around Indianapolis, but never needed to close the loop. Oddly, no railroads entered Indianapolis from the north-northwest. I don't know why, but there must be another story here somewhere! SOME REMAINING MYSTERIES The 1966 PRR Timetable states standard clocks and bulletin boards were maintained at - HAWTHORNE YARD OFFICE - UNION STATION CONCOURSE - PINE YARD OFFICE and - TRANSFER YARD OFFICE But also names - ARLINGTON AVE. - 400 YARD - ENGINEHOUSE - FOREMAN'S OFFICE - EMERSON AVE - YARD OFFICE and - CAVEN - YARD OFFICE I can assume the enginehouse and the Emerson Avenue yard office are at Hawthorne Yard. But where was Arlington Avenue? Where (as has been asked before) was Caven? Elsewhere in the 1966 ETT, there is a reference to the "West Street Transfer Yard and Caven District", naming a long list of industrial tracks including "Allison Plant No. 8". So Caven must be on or around the PRR St. Louis main. On the other hand, another list "Irvington and Lasalle Street District", mentions a Lasalle Street Yard, so we also need a location for that facility. I'm hoping some of the really hardcore Indy experts will come out and help us fill in these blanks. All help will be very much appreciated. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John \"John\" Bruce" Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:23:08 -0800 Subject: [PRR] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE0CCE.C8CE1D60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable unsubscribe PRR-talk ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE0CCE.C8CE1D60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
unsubscribe = PRR-talk
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE0CCE.C8CE1D60-- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:59:53 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] One more whistle reference hi again folks.... Here's one more reference for cabin car whistles....and then i'm gonna get off this thread.... In the november 1968 issue of Model Railroader...the drawings of the N-5b show the whistle in the end view of the car...just to the right of the right crash post. Til Later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:49:33 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] One more whistle reference Hi Guys, I was paging thru the Walthers catalog this afternoon looking for some early number boards to convert a LL P1k, F3 and what did I find but a "Caboose Handrail Mount Whistle with bracket" by Precision Scale. I'll have to admit I never knew such a thing existed until the discussion by the group. Thanks, my education continues! Regards, George. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 22:08:15 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Kato's RS-2- AIN'T RIGHT Scott and all, Without getting to technical and drifting to far away from the original question let address your post briefly: sjwhitney@TURBONT.NET writes: << Greg: You seem to have some info here. One question... Were the units riding on the old short RS-2 frame or the new longer RS-3 frame?>> PRR's RS-2's (ex-D&H) were in effect RS-2 components left from the end of the RS-2 production run added to the RS-3 carbodies. Yes, the frame length was 6 inches longer that the RS-2 frame. The added length was in the area between the center of the rear truck (short hood) to the end of the pilot. << Also. moving the battery boxes had nothing to do with the electrical cabinet. Actually it was MORE difficult as now the cables had to be routed down under the frame and back up into the cabinet because the fuel tank was still under the cab floor. It also required relocating all the air brake equipment formerly located on the running board behind the cab on the fireman's side, another pain in the ***.>> The fuel tanks for the RS-2 and RS-3 are on the centerline of the frame between the trucks. The fuel filler on the RS-2 was mounted on the cab side, not so with the ex-D&H units. The battery boxes on the "typical" RS-2 was ahead of the rear truck on both sides of the fuel tank "like" the switchers. If I miss lead someone I did not mean to. <> The unit pictured in John D. Hahn, Jr.'s book #4041 had friction bearing journals, at least in 1961, but it is difficult to tell if the units bearing were converted to rolling bearings in the old covers. It would make a great modeling feature. I hope everyone understand that if you are modeling Pennsy's RS-2 then think RS-3. Greg Martin PS for you PRR-Talk gize you might consider adding MEMRA (LINES WEST) or NEMRA (LINE EAST) to you info list. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SmartAlecA@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 20:07:35 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Gets The Shaft In a message dated 11/10/98 12:40:41 PM, you wrote: >The museum was counting on the afternoon Amtrak train (don't recall which >one) to carry passengers one-way westbound over the curve. They would >then get off at Johnstown and be bussed back. > >The new schedule pushes all of these trains into the night hours, when a >ride around the curve would be scenicly worthless. The article quoted >that dozens of bus tours to the museum have cancelled...due to the change >in train schedule. Amtrak's Northeast Timetable (effective 10/25/98) shows the westbound times for train #43, the "Pennsylvanian," on Page 20. An excerpt: Altoona..............11:20AM Johnstown........12:21PM This is the result of train #'s 43 & 44 being extended from Pittsburgh to Chicago. Despite this revision, I'd be hard pressed to see how these times can be considered as "night hours." These times should still be usable for the purpose of combined rail-bus trips around The Mother Of All Curves. (The times for train #'s 40 & 41, the "Three Rivers," are unchanged.) It seems that you were accidentally given incorrect data regarding the extension of the "Pennsylvanian;" it now runs 3 hours earlier westbound. Albert Alecknavage II (SmartAlecA@aol.com) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:09:23 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] One more whistle reference On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 Eichhorn@aol.com wrote: > Hi Guys, > > I was paging thru the Walthers catalog this afternoon looking for some early > number boards to convert a LL P1k, F3 I wasn't aware anyone made such a thing. Do they? It would be useful.... -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:53:10 EST Subject: [PRR] LCL Shipping - early container cars In a message dated 11/10/98 3:43:43 PM Central Standard Time, VVA249@aol.com writes: << PRR version was tuscan red. >> I believe both the containers and the flatcar were freight car color, not tuscan red. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:46:54 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) From: caylorman@juno.com (E.J. Caylor) E.J. "I want to see from within; I want to be where I've been; I want the truth, not a lie; I want to live before I die..." ---- Gene Simmons, "Within" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TodEngine@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:32:43 EST Subject: [PRR] List members in Scranton, NEPA area? I've been looking without much luck for a rigging or rane rental company in the northeast Pennsylvania area for a project in Scranton. I have a 100,000 locomotive to lift and place on a railroad flatcar and need to find a rigging company that can do this type of work, and what it would cost. If anyone who lives in the area and could look in their local yellow pages and give me any listings under "crane rental" or "rigging comapnies" I would greatly appreciate it. Rick Rowlands ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Gets The Shaft Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 21:23:20 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/10/98 8:07 PM, SmartAlecA@aol.com (SmartAlecA@aol.com) wrote: >>The museum was counting on the afternoon Amtrak train (don't recall which >>one) to carry passengers one-way westbound over the curve. They would >>then get off at Johnstown and be bussed back. >> >>The new schedule pushes all of these trains into the night hours, when a >>ride around the curve would be scenicly worthless. The article quoted >>that dozens of bus tours to the museum have cancelled...due to the change >>in train schedule. > >Amtrak's Northeast Timetable (effective 10/25/98) shows the westbound >times for train #43, the "Pennsylvanian," on Page 20. An excerpt: > >Altoona..............11:20AM >Johnstown........12:21PM > >This is the result of train #'s 43 & 44 being extended from Pittsburgh to >Chicago. Despite this revision, I'd be hard pressed to see how these times >can be considered as "night hours." These times should still be usable for >the purpose of combined rail-bus trips around The Mother Of All Curves. >(The times for train #'s 40 & 41, the "Three Rivers," are unchanged.) >It seems that you were accidentally given incorrect data regarding the >extension of the "Pennsylvanian;" it now runs 3 hours earlier westbound. I'm just repeating what was in the newspaper. Does "The Pennsylvanian" allow short trip boarding at Altoona (Altoona-Johnstown)? I know the PRR often did not allow short trips on their "Blue Ribbon" trains, but I bet Amtrak wants all the riders they can get. Maybe there was a change after 10/25? Article was published 11/1. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:46:27 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) From: caylorman@juno.com (E.J. Caylor) A few notes on that great description of Indy: There is a State St. Yard for the B&O. The yard office is listed in the CSX ETT for 1995, and i've seen pictures of it on Terraserver (sorry, I don't have the URL). I do have the URL at Terraserver for Hawthorne Yard. It's http://www.terraserver.microsoft.com/GetTilesByXY.asp?XId=8513&YId=3668&T ileX=3&TileY=3&SrcId=1&ImgDate=03/01/1992&DSize=2 (It overlooks the remains of the roundhouse) Just to add on something, directly west of CP1, about a mile or so before reaching Big Four yard, are South and North Hunt. These are both the approach tracks to the PRR I&F Branch. According to the Conrail ETT for 1979, the approach for B&O's Moorefield Yard was called Moorefield Jct. Also, I went past there about a year ago, & I think I remember seeing a few overgrown tracks still in the ground at the yard. A quick question that really doesn't have anything to do with Indy, but just popped into my head: In 1979, there was a Conrail section of track in Lebanon called the Gadsden Secondary. I believe in my PRR ETT, the same track was called the Central Indiana Railroad. Were there any PRR operations on this track? I remember seeing something about an enginehouse in Lebanon for this track as well. Does anyone have any other info? Rick, I have seen those same sections about LaSalle St. Yard and Caven District. The Allison Plant 8 may be on the west side, if I am thinking correctly. Allison Transmission has their plants on the west side near 10th street. There used to be some tracks which entered the facility, but they are now gone. If anyone has any other info, that would be great as well. Another question: My PRR 1952 ETT states in Plainfield the existence of a Hobbs Nursery Track. The weird thing is that Hobbs Nursery is on the other side of US 40 from the track, & I don't see any remenents or grades from the track left. Does anyone have any info? Rick, thanks for a great batch of info. It has helped out a lot. E.J. Caylor Trying to gather info on ever railroad in Indy & west to Terre Haute. ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rail Classics" Subject: [PRR] Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:35:22 -0500 Hello Pennsy Fans; To keep you up to date on the R-50b project, it will be in the USA on November 25. Also we have updated our web site (www.railclassics.com) with info on two new projects, the Z-74 Business Cars in 7 versions and the E-6s Steam Locomotives in 5 versions. The work on our next project the X-40 series of boxcars is also listed. Take a look !!! EDDY at RAIL CLASSICS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:29:47 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin whistles? Real name =Back-up Hoses... I remember Santa Fe transfer drafts in Beaumont, Texas, in the 1940's, made with small Stephenson Valve Gear locomotives, shoving long strings of cars toward the SP yard - the rider on the lead box car was on the roof with a backup hose that reached all the way up. Also, you can expect to find a built-in air valve and whistle on the rear platform of open-platform business and observation cars. Steve Bartlett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:07:46 -0500 From: bobp@tsc.com (Bob Poortinga) Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) My reply to Rick's excellent article is based on track maps, personal observations, anecdotal evidence, and some pure speculation. On Tue, Nov 10, 1998 at 06:08:39PM -0500, RickTipton@aol.com reports: > The Indianapolis Union Railway was a terminal company put together to build a > Union Station at Indianapolis. It was owned by PRR and NYC predecessors, and > so presents an interesting blend of their practices. A sample: > - PRR position-light signals and signal bridges, painted black. Presumably > the whole signal plant is PRR-standard US&S. I visited IU tower around 1981. It had pneumatically operated switches and derails and, IIRC, was a GRS (General Railway Signal) plant. > This bypass line seems to be referred to as "The Belt Line" or "The > IU Belt Railway". It was mostly double track, grade separated from the street > grid, and highly industrialized over its length. The "Conrail-ization" of the Beltline is thus: ALL single track, all connections are now hand throw switches, and diamonds use stop boards. > We can start on Indy's north side, where the bypass started at BELT JUNCTION. > Here, the Monon came in from Chicago, Monon, and Carmel, along the west side > of the Indiana State Fairgrounds and straight south to BELT JCT. The Monon > once continued south to a downtown yard that supported black-and-gold RS-3's > (RS-2's ?) that sounded like they would die any minute. I don't know the name > of this yard and enginehouse, but it disappeared under I-65 construction > sometime post-1970, after becoming part of the L&N. Most of this yard was just north of the I-65/I-70 split NE of downtown. The land is now vacant. > EASTSIDE (P&E from New Castle IN) > The Belt continues east until it meets the Peoria and Eastern (P&E) at > EASTSIDE. The P&E comes into Indy from the east, having missed every town of > size between there and its starting point in Springfield OH. At Eastside Jct, the Beltline forked from the south into 3 directions, east to the P&E, north/northeast to a connection with the CCC&StL at Brightwood and west to DX. The P&E at one time did not end here but continued west, crossing the Belt at Eastside, paralleling 21st Street, and connecting with the CCC&StL at Massachusetts Ave. South from Eastside Junction, the beltline was two tracks to 10th St. (MP 10.5) where each track diverged into a main and passing track. It was then FOUR tracks from there south to Hamilton Jct (MP 8.8), then reduced to 3 tracks to Cincinnati Jct (MP 8.0). > PANHANDLE JUNCTION (PRR/PCC&StL from Richmond IN) > >From EASTSIDE, the Belt heads south. There it crosses US 40, and then on an > overpass across the late PRR "passenger main". This line came into town > straight from the east, bringing Panhandle name trains from New York, > Pittsburgh, Columbus, and Dayton. According to the track map, Panhandle Jct. was located directly above US 40 (Washington St.). There were also two transfer tracks on the west side of the Beltline just north of Panhandle Jct. The CI&W (Erie/B&O) mainline ran parallel to the PCC&StL here and did not split away until further east. > To finish up with PANHANDLE JUNCTION, there was also an Indianapolis Power & > Light coal-fired plant somewhere close here, and its hoppers were switched off > the IU Belt. I don't see any mention of this on the track map. I do find spurs for Johnson Coal Co. and Producer's Oil at Panhandle. > PINE JUNCTION (B&O/CI&W/ERIE, Amtrak) > Going on south, the IU Belt crosses the B&O main at PINE JUNCTION. I can find no mention of this on the Beltline track map. > HAMILTON JUNCTION (PRR to HAWTHORNE YARD) > Continuing south, the Belt comes to HAMILTON JUNCTION, a wye connection to the > east-southeast that is the western approach to PRR's HAWTHORNE YARD. Hamilton Jct. also had a connection that came from the west off of the CI&W. Trains from the CI&W could cross over the Beltline to the Hawthorne lead. The lead for the Citizen's Coke and Gas plant was just south of Hamilton Jct. > BELT CROSSING (NYC/CCC&StL/CIC&StL to Cincinnati) > Running southwest from HAMILTON, the Belt crosses the Big Four at BELT > CROSSING. This is called Cincinnati Jct. on the Beltline map. There appears to have been a small transfer yard on the east side of the Beltline just south of Cincinnati Jct. > DALE (PRR/PCC&StL/JM&I/M&I to Louisville) > Running on around the south side of downtown, the Belt Line comes to the PRR's > Louisville Branch, former Louisville Division. Just east of Dale is East St. Jct, probably the site of of a switch tender job or it was remote controlled from Dale. This is where the wye's off the Louisville Branch converged on the Beltline. This branch is now a shortline called the Louisville and Indiana which is owned by Anacostia and Pacific. Rumor has it the CSX is very interested in acquiring this line once it has control of Conrail in Indianapolis. > IU SHOPS > Running northwest, the Belt was once crossed here by the PRR Vincennes Branch. There may have been a crossing here at one time, but not for a long while. The Vincennes branch now curves to the southeast and connects with the Beltline just west of what were the Union Stock yards. The Union Stock yards were located just east of Kentucky Ave. and south of the Beltline. The site is now a large Eli Lilly plant. There was quite of bit of street level industrial trackage between here and downtown, much of it paralleled Kentucky Ave. > From the name, one wonders if the Indianapolis Union once had shops at this place. Probably. > WOODS (PRR/PCC&StL/Vandalia RR to St. Louis) > Northwest on the Belt, this frame tower guarded the crossing with the double > track PRR to St. Louis. Inside the Belt lay what Mike's map calls WESTSIDE > YARD, although my ETT calls it WEST STREET. Just south of Woods was Vandalia Jct. where the connecting track came off the PCC&StL. West St. is east over the White River from here. It is the location of the coal yard for the IP&L steam plant. > Outside the Belt was TRANSFER YARD, extending west to KRAFT. TRANSFER was > always full of auto parts cars, although to my shame I don't know whose auto > plant lies nearby. Note: E.J. Caylor says, "I believe Transfer Yard is right > behind the GM Bus Factory. I believe this is the Detroit Diesel - Allison plant. > Mike's map doesn't show this, but a 1975 PC timetable has a running track of > 1.4 miles, probably down the south side of TRANSFER YARD and possibly serving > that auto/bus plant. It looks like this running track came off the IU belt > just south of WOODS at VAN JUNCTION, and ran west to KRAFT on the PRR's St. > Louis main. This sounds correct. Trains off the Vincennes branch would use this running track to Woods. > CP1 (NYC/CCC&StL to St. Louis) > Straight north a short distance from WOOD tower is CP1, the crossing of the > Big Four lying straight west of Union Station. This is listed as "BX" tower on the track map. > KD (B&O to Decatur, P&E to Peoria) > Running north a few more blocks, the Belt crossed B&O track at the east end of > B&O's MOOREFIELD YARD. The B&O line went west to Decatur IL, but CSXT has now > lifted the line and the yard. This is listed as Moorefield Jct on the the map. > Immediately, the Belt also crosses the P&E track, which used to pass through > Speedway on its way out of town. But this segment also used to host the Big > Four's passenger trains toward Lafayette and Chicago. The P&E line is still > in only to BRANT, from which a stub of the Big Four is still worked north, but > no longer reaches Lebanon IN. It goes as far as Rock Island refinery on the north side of Indy. > EDGEMONT AVENUE (CCC&StL?) > >From KD, the Belt wanders north through Indianapolis' West Side; I've never > been on this segment. One would assume that serving of industrial firms > account for the line's survival. Some the the larger customers were Central Soya and Central Milling along with H.J. Heinz, Caron Pirie Scott, Goodyear Tire, Maytag, Westinghouse, General Electric and Western Electric. > At a location identified on Mike's map as EDGEMONT AVENUE, it appears the Belt > ended and joined with another right-of-way that used to depart IUS at its > immediate west end. This mystery line ran north through the city just a > couple of blocks west of the Indiana State Capitol, in the same neighborhood > that was built around a canal. > > My guess (and that's just what it is) is that this mystery line was the > original Big Four line northwest to Lebanon, Lafayette and Chicago. Ring the bell and give the man a cigar. My track map says "CCC&StL Railway (Old Chicago Division). > NOT QUITE A FULL CIRCLE > It is interesting that the IU Belt Line was built seven eighths of the way > around Indianapolis, but never needed to close the loop. Oddly, no railroads > entered Indianapolis from the north-northwest. I don't know why, but there > must be another story here somewhere! There are some significant valleys to cross in that area, in particular the Eagle Creek valley. > SOME REMAINING MYSTERIES > - ARLINGTON AVE. - 400 YARD > - ENGINEHOUSE - FOREMAN'S OFFICE > - EMERSON AVE - YARD OFFICE and > - CAVEN - YARD OFFICE > I can assume the enginehouse and the Emerson Avenue yard office are at > Hawthorne Yard. But where was Arlington Avenue? Where (as has been asked > before) was Caven? AFAIK, Arlington Ave is the west end of Hawthorne yard. > Elsewhere in the 1966 ETT, there is a reference to the "West Street Transfer > Yard and Caven District", naming a long list of industrial tracks including > "Allison Plant No. 8". So Caven must be on or around the PRR St. Louis main. This is probably the industrial trackage I mentioned earlier along Kentucky Ave and West Street on the southwest side of downtown. This is north of the Beltline and southwest of Union Station. This area used to include a large number of meat packing houses. > On the other hand, another list "Irvington and Lasalle Street District", > mentions a Lasalle Street Yard, so we also need a location for that facility. Not sure about this. Corrections, additions, and comments are, as always, welcome. -- Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) Bloomington, Indiana USA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:49:18 -0500 From: Dave Freshwater Subject: [PRR] Re: {PRR} Altoona Museum Gets the Shaft Jerry wrote: > > > I'm just repeating what was in the newspaper. Does "The Pennsylvanian" > allow short trip boarding at Altoona (Altoona-Johnstown)? I know the PRR > often did not allow short trips on their "Blue Ribbon" trains, but I bet > Amtrak wants all the riders they can get. > > Maybe there was a change after 10/25? Article was published 11/1. > I picked up a copy of the Fall/Winter 1998 AMTRAK timetables this past weekend, courtesy of the AMTRAK Manager of Passenger Safety and Operation Lifesaver. Amtrak provide copies of the timetables along with materials we handed out at an Operation Lifesaver table at Train Day at one of the local libraries. The timetable was effective Oct. 25, 1998. The cover states that "AMTRAK Schedules will change in the Spring of 1999." It shows daily service on the Pennsylvanian (Train 43) departing Altoona at 11:20 a.m. Next stop is Johnstown, departing 12:21 p.m. Daily service on the Three Rivers (Train 41) as well, but departing Altoona at 7:53 p.m., departing Johnstown at 8:57 p.m. (As stated, not very good for checking out the views.) But, since you may not be able to trust the Timetables any more than you can trust a newspaper, just to check even more, I checked the AMTRAK web page. http://reservations.amtrak.com/ then pick the train schedules button. Departure point Altoona. Destination Johnstown. And the web page provides the same options (trains 43 and 41) with the same departure times. Dave Freshwater North Potomac, MD Operation Lifesaver Presenter ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry and Phyllis Morgan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona Museum Gets The Shaft Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:07:40 -0500 My wife and I took Johnstown to Huntingdon on the Broadway and back on the Pennsylvanian a few years ago when we were first getting "hooked" on the PRR. Larry Morgan -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 9:23 PM To: SmartAlecA@aol.com; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Gets The Shaft On 11/10/98 8:07 PM, SmartAlecA@aol.com (SmartAlecA@aol.com) wrote: >>The museum was counting on the afternoon Amtrak train (don't recall which >>one) to carry passengers one-way westbound over the curve. They would >>then get off at Johnstown and be bussed back. >> >>The new schedule pushes all of these trains into the night hours, when a >>ride around the curve would be scenicly worthless. The article quoted >>that dozens of bus tours to the museum have cancelled...due to the change >>in train schedule. > >Amtrak's Northeast Timetable (effective 10/25/98) shows the westbound >times for train #43, the "Pennsylvanian," on Page 20. An excerpt: > >Altoona..............11:20AM >Johnstown........12:21PM > >This is the result of train #'s 43 & 44 being extended from Pittsburgh to >Chicago. Despite this revision, I'd be hard pressed to see how these times >can be considered as "night hours." These times should still be usable for >the purpose of combined rail-bus trips around The Mother Of All Curves. >(The times for train #'s 40 & 41, the "Three Rivers," are unchanged.) >It seems that you were accidentally given incorrect data regarding the >extension of the "Pennsylvanian;" it now runs 3 hours earlier westbound. I'm just repeating what was in the newspaper. Does "The Pennsylvanian" allow short trip boarding at Altoona (Altoona-Johnstown)? I know the PRR often did not allow short trips on their "Blue Ribbon" trains, but I bet Amtrak wants all the riders they can get. Maybe there was a change after 10/25? Article was published 11/1. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 00:14:39 -0500 From: Dave Freshwater Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Gets The Shaft Stephen Bartlett wrote: > > They did in 1985. My wife and I rode from Johnstown to Altoona, finally found > a place a block away for microwaved hamburgers (!), then after another hour or > so, rode back to Johnstown. Daylight trips. > > The current schedule shows the east bound trains depart Johnstown at 10:19 am, arriving Altoona at 11:25 a.m. (Three Rivers - Train 40) and 6:28 p.m./7:28 p.m. (Train 44 (Pennsylvanian). Guess you can always do a long layover in Johnstown. Dave Freshwater ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:15:40 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Gets The Shaft They did in 1985. My wife and I rode from Johnstown to Altoona, finally found a place a block away for microwaved hamburgers (!), then after another hour or so, rode back to Johnstown. Daylight trips. Jerry wrote: > ...... Does "The Pennsylvanian" allow short trip boarding at Altoona > (Altoona-Johnstown)? I know the PRR often did not allow short trips on their > "Blue Ribbon" trains, but I bet Amtrak wants all the riders they can > get............... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 06:08:49 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Alco RS possibilities? In a message dated 11/10/98 7:49:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, jimsix@ncweb.com writes: > Now I am really upset! :-( I thought that my ALCo RS3s has Westinghouse > traction motors, but they are too short (9"-4" = 114"). Must be that they > have GE traction motors. Now this changes everything. . . > > Anybody want to buy some RS3s with GE traction motors? > > Jim 6 ;^)) > Wow... Alco units with GE traction motors. What a concept! Wait 'til Jerry (Pinkepank) and Louis (Marre) hear about this... :^) Rick Tipton Tongue firmly in cheek ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roger P. Hensley" Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:21:36 +0000 Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) > To: RickTipton@aol.com, prr-talk@dsop.com > Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:46:27 -0500 > Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) > From: caylorman@juno.com (E.J. Caylor) > A few notes on that great description of Indy: > A quick question that really doesn't have anything to do with Indy, but > just popped into my head: In 1979, there was a Conrail section of track > in Lebanon called the Gadsden Secondary. I believe in my PRR ETT, the > same track was called the Central Indiana Railroad. Were there any PRR > operations on this track? I remember seeing something about an > enginehouse in Lebanon for this track as well. Does anyone have any > other info? The Central Indiana Railway was a joint property of the NYC and the PRR after it was purchased in 1902 at a foreclosure sale by the Big Four (CCC&StL) and the Panhandle (PCC&StL). It was renamed the Central Indiana Rwy in 1903. About 1927, the joint owners began reducing operations until, in 1943, the line only ran from Anderson to Lebanon. At it's best, it ran from Muncie Indiana to Brazil Indiana. A remanent remains as the Central Indiana and Western. The engine house in Lebanon was the CI and, no, the Pennsy had very little to do with that part of the CI. Ownership passed to PC who began to dismantle it and then to CR and the scrappers. You can read more about this little short line on the 'Railroads of Madision County (Indiana)] pages if you are interested. It was a part of the PRR history. Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org === http://bsuvc.bsu.edu/~00rphensley/cidwelco.html ================ === The Railroads of Madison County, Indiana ======================= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:37:00 +0000 From: jerry@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Interesting item on eBay web site item#41358426: HO Thought someone on the list would be interested in these...there is a $100 reserve. I already have an A-B set, or I would've bid. Title of item: HO LOCOMOTIVE-PROTO 2000 A-B-A SET Seller: rbm@r-mac.com Starts: 11/10/98 19:20:28 PST Ends: 11/17/98 19:20:28 PST Price: Currently $7.00 To bid the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=41358426 Item Description: HO LOCOMOTIVE BY PROTO 2000. This is the long out-of-stock FA2, FB2, FA2 set of three engines. They are Pennsylvania which makes them all the more desirable. Both of the A units are powered the B is a dummy. These are the locomotives with the operating fans. They run very strong and these have just been on the demonstration layout but otherwise they are like new. Kadee couplers have been installed and they are ready to go. When available they sold for $200.00. $100.00 RESERVE. Please add $6.00 for shipping and insurance in the U.S. Overseas Shipping is on an individual basis. Credit cards are ok. Visa, MC, Discover, and AMEX. To send your credit card number send two E-Mail messages each with half your credit card number. Identify the auction by its number on your E-Mail and don't forget to include the expiration date. IN ALL COMMUNICATIONS WITH US, ESPECIALLY AFTER THE AUCTION CLOSES, PLEASE QUOTE THE EBAY AUCTION NUMBER. Please deal with us as we will deal with you. Please don't bid unless you can pay promptly (we expect that will be no more than 14 days). If you bid and don't pay we still have to pay E-Bay ao please abide by the golden rule.IF YOU LIKE TRAINS AND WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE R-MAC HO LAYOUT please click here for a special Index page: SPECIAL EBAY WEB PAGE! FROM THERE CLICK ON THE TRAIN LINK. All of the E-Bay numbered items either are or will be listed in our auctions. Have a nice day. Visit eBay, the world's largest Personal Trading Community at http://www.ebay.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:01:17 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Gets The Shaft Greetings to the group, Not only did they allow it but encouraged it. During the summer months in recent years, a US Parks Service ranger would ride the train and describe the journey to the folks who just got on to ride between Johnstown and Altoona. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA >I'm just repeating what was in the newspaper. Does "The Pennsylvanian" >allow short trip boarding at Altoona (Altoona-Johnstown)? I know the PRR >often did not allow short trips on their "Blue Ribbon" trains, but I bet >Amtrak wants all the riders they can get. > >Maybe there was a change after 10/25? Article was published 11/1. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Web Cam in HARRIS Tower!!! Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 11:10:26 -0500 From: Jerry What a come on!!! No, not the real HARRIS tower... I just finished testing web cam software with my server. Works great! And for only $20! (I already had video input capability.) Now I can't wait to start construction of my layout. Integral with the plan will be the ability to mount a camera behind (north of) HARRIS tower. During operating sessions, those on the internet will be able to look eastbound past HARRIS and into my Harrisburg Passenger Station complex. Alternate locations on the layout would be the Harrisburg Locomotive Facility and ROCKVILLE junction (the Sunbury Branch goes out of sight and is the lead to my staging area). Cool! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona Museum Gets The Shaft Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:33:35 -0800 I beleive they do. What you cannot do, however, is ride only between New Haven and New York on Amtrak. As part of trackage rights over the Metro North Commuter Railroad (New Rochelle to New Haven), Amtrak agreed not compete for customers. So if you really want to travel Amtrak between New York, Stamford, Bridgeport, or New Haven, you must buy a ticket one station outside of that range, either to Newark or Old Saybrook CT. John > ---------- > Jerry wrote: > > > ...... Does "The Pennsylvanian" allow short trip boarding at Altoona > > (Altoona-Johnstown)? I know the PRR often did not allow short trips on > their > > "Blue Ribbon" trains, but I bet Amtrak wants all the riders they can > > get............... > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad > products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Changes in Cleveland....an award for CR's Hagen... Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 13:06:55 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 9 Nov, PRRSignals@aol.com wrote: > Ummm, if CR was / did so good, how come........ > the 'New" owners are now Promising / planning / rebuilding / restoring / > revitalizing some of the exact same physical plant and local service that CR > so readily and willfully destroyed..... As the Rev. on the Railroad list said, "NS is spending millions to upgrade Conrail to its standards, and CSX is spending millions to upgrade itself to Conrail standards..." Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Gets The Shaft Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 13:04:36 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/11/98 12:52 PM, PRRMAN@aol.com (PRRMAN@aol.com) wrote: >On the previous schedule, No. 43 left Altoona at 2:01pm. >Now, it's 11:20am -- broad daylight. You still have to return >from Johnstown by bus, unless you're willing to spend 6-7 >hours riding the incline, etc. Seems like the problem here >is something other than Amtrak. In providing info to the newspaper, the museum may be offering "selected information". That is, perhaps a person previously arrived at the museum and stayed a few hours, then took the 2:01 train westbound. They would arrive back by bus in the evening. With an 11:20 train, the visitor would have very little time for the museum prior to boarding, and they would return very late in the afternoon, perhaps after the museum closed. My guess is that the museum is whining that their hours are not conducive to the 11:20 train. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:52:09 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Gets The Shaft In a message dated 98-11-10 12:40:41 EST, jerry@dsop.com writes: << The new schedule pushes all of these trains into the night hours, >> On the previous schedule, No. 43 left Altoona at 2:01pm. Now, it's 11:20am -- broad daylight. You still have to return from Johnstown by bus, unless you're willing to spend 6-7 hours riding the incline, etc. Seems like the problem here is something other than Amtrak. Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] UPDATE: Model Power Freight Sharks Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 15:55:49 -0500 From: Jerry Duh! Sorry, my first post had the model # of the passenger sharks. Here's what I meant to ask: Were the Model Power freight sharks of the DR 4-4-15A variety, or the later RF-16? (I probably should already know this!) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:16:34 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Changes in Cleveland....an award for CR's Hagen... Pennsy folks, "NS standards"? This could be interesting. I don't make any effort to keep up on modern railraoding other than causual railfanning and history-seeking outings, but I have caught a few tidbits on the big Conrail breakup. Seems I've read that NS is going to use Pennsy's old Sandusky Line to feed trains onto the Water Level Route toward Cleveland, at least between Bellevue and Sandusky. Now my wife is from Sandusky and I've seen this piece of "high capacity main to-be" up close, position lights and all. There's a couple spots where a person mowing their lawn would have to cut on both sides of this "main". In Sandusky the line presently crosses the old NYC main at grade, enroute to the docks. This diamond is quite close to Sandusky's main drag (and the location of Pennsy's old yard office) and is hemmed in by this street to the south, Lake Erie to the north and a foundry, if I recall , to the east, along with other industrial structures. Haven't been there in a few years and my bearings could be a little off, but I think this tie-in is going to need some Atlas 15"radius sectional track to fit, unless some real changes are being made. I'm really looking forward to my next visit to that site. Should prove to be quite interesting to see what they work out. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FRANKGARON@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:05:24 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) Found the Indy info very helpful. Once you get past Pittsburgh, info about the PRR is hard to come by. Don't know if everyone is aware of it, but I believe Union tower in Terre Haute is still standing. This tower had a CTC machine that controlled quite a stretch of the St. Louis line. Once you get past Indy, there aren't too many structures to see. The last time I followed the Pandhandle was in 1988. I followed it all the way from Pitt to St. Louis. Some parts of the line west of Dayton looked like they were ripped up yesterday, and other parts were plowed under -- no trace! Has anybody really followed the Panhandle west of Dayton or the Col- Chi line lately? I'm wondering how much of the ROW is still visible. As webmaster for the Railroad Station Historical Society, our site at www.RSHS.org will be up and running by this weekend. We will have a section listing all the remaining PRR structures still standing. Anybody on this list is welcome to check it out and contribute. Frank Garon Perth Amboy, NJ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:39:03 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] UPDATE: Model Power Freight Sharks > Duh! > > Sorry, my first post had the model # of the passenger sharks. Here's what > I meant to ask: > > Were the Model Power freight sharks of the DR 4-4-15A variety, or the > later RF-16? RF16. Note the lack of the slatted vents, the deeper "frame" along the side, the longer nose... -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:45:46 -0500 (EST) FRANKGARON@aol.com scrivit: > > Don't know if everyone is aware of it, but I believe Union tower in Terre > Haute is still standing. This tower had a CTC machine that controlled quite a > stretch of the St. Louis line. Once you get past Indy, there aren't too many > structures to see. Interesting. I did not know that when I was out there in 1986. > The last time I followed the Pandhandle was in 1988. I followed it all the > way from Pitt to St. Louis. Some parts of the line west of Dayton looked like > they were ripped up yesterday, and other parts were plowed under -- no trace! Well, don't forget that the whole thing is still in from Terre Haute to E. St. Louis -- one of the parts of the PRR that will become CSX. (The other being Crestline to Chicago, and somewhere-short-of-Carrothers to Toledo.) > Has anybody really followed the Panhandle west of Dayton or the Col- Chi line > lately? I'm wondering how much of the ROW is still visible. This bunch of posts about Indiana actually was started by me. In October I travelled out to Chicago to pick up some RR hardware. I made a trip of it, and having seen little of the Panhandle, paralleled it in many areas. The post should be in the PRR-Talk archives, but I can summarize. Pittsburgh to Weirton I believe is cut in two. Uncertain. Weirton to Columbus (Newark) is in, now operated by the Ohio Central. Columbus to London is in. From there to Cincinnati much is out, with some stuff near Cincinnati proper still in, operated by I&O. Tom Vondruska would be the best person to comment on this. Dayton proper is in. The freight main out of Columbus toward Chicago and Indi is gone and, in many areas, hard to recognize as gone. Bradford was the big junction point, where the shortcut to Chicago and the (?older) freight main to Richmond split; all tracks gone. Tower stands. Freight cutoff from Bradford to New Paris (joining Cinci. to Richmond line) is gone. Yard in Richmond is gone. Line in Richmond is still in, having been bought by N&W (?NS). Without good maps, which I don't have, I can't tell you what they managed to connect to what with this bit of the PRR. >From Richmond to almost downtown Indy is gone. In Indi, branch to Louisville still there, and I believe this is still in all the way. >From Indy to Big Four Yard, PRR is in and signalled, partially even position-light. >From here I went up the I&F branch toward Logansport. This is in almost all the way, operated by CR to Frankford (at least, I saw a CR engine); operated by a local authority (Eel Creek RR, I believe) on the northern end. Logansport, lots of PRR still in, in various goodnesses of shape. The WAB is clearly the dominant partner in Logansport these days, though. PRR to Effner is in, branches toward South Bend and Plymouth appear to be in at least partially; I did not follow these. On the east side of town, found location of ANOKA, radio tower still standing. This is where the aforementioned freight shortcut from Columbus came in. This is gone, but the line to ... Marion, is it? ... is in. >From Logansport, the Chicago main is gone, gone, gone almost as soon as you leave Logansport, and remains gone until you get to Dolton tower. There, an extremely short stretch of it is in, paralleling the B&OCT. Then it's gone again, crossing the RI, etc., until somewhere near 59th St. Yard (which CSX has appropriated and rebuilt). From here north, PRR, B&OCT, and CJ parallel each other for a bit. [CJ = Chicago Junction, a NYC property serving the former Stock Yards and environs). >From here on in Panhandle is more in than not, but it is not in on the south side of Western Ave.; it _is_ in from there east. Basically, the entire property has been trashed. The only places where the PH approaches its former glory is the stretch in Chicago coming into the north side of Union Station, and the Terre Haute-St. L. segment. Blame Hasselman? Certainly a fair chunk of the blame lies here. Blame the PRR? Quite possibly. It was largely the NYC properties that had the CTC and rebuilt yards -- at least, more so than PRR did. On the other hand, PRR had coal trains and more passenger trains, rather than fast freight and fast freight and fewer passenger trains ... so perhaps PRR really _needed_ all those extra tracks. Clearly a topic for a dissertation, not something that can be determined with any sort of accuracy in an email paragraph. > As webmaster for the Railroad Station Historical Society, our site at > www.RSHS.org will be up and running by this weekend. We will have a section > listing all the remaining PRR structures still standing. Anybody on this list > is welcome to check it out and contribute. Frank, my previous post listed the stations and towers that I found. I did NOT stop at EVERY town, certainly, but I did stop at a lot. If you can't find it, I'll pull out my notes and list them specifically - email me. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Model Power Freight Sharks Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 15:54:27 -0500 From: Jerry Were the Model Power freight sharks of the DR 6-4-20 variety, or the later RF-16? (I probably should already know this!) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 98 13:31:09 CST Subject: [PRR] Help!!! Hi, all, Have you heard the one about the absent-minded professor? Seems he started working on two of the Quality Craft PRR Jacks Tower kits (HO) about six months ago, went to some other things on his workbench, and now cannot find the TWO sets of plans he had for this kit. Of course I'm not referring to myself - it's a good friend of mine. I'd NEVER be that absent-minded. So if any of you can offer my friend copies of the plans and kit instructions, I know he's appreciate it. Just let me know off-list. My friend say thanks! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:23:33 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Altamont Tower From: caylorman@juno.com (E.J. Caylor) Anyone happen to know how to get to Altamont Tower (or where it used to be) from Purdue university? Thanks for the info. E.J. Caylor ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:21:49 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) From: caylorman@juno.com (E.J. Caylor) The I&F Branch is also in use by Central of Indianapolis too. I've seen a couple of their trains on the line as well. Conrail was just repairing track & replacing ballast up around Lebanon, as I had seen the hoppers on my drive home from Purdue. The portion of the Panhandle that I live the nearest to, Indy to Limedale, doesn't have much of anything. The most I have seen are a few bridge abutments and an intact deck-girder bridge between Clayton & Amo (they're in the ETT), and a few small concrete rectangular buildings that look like they might have once housed some sort of switch machine (If I remember correctly from my ETTs, they are located at opposite ends of a passing siding) Frank, come to think of it, there is at least one old PRR station still standing on the Panhandle. In the town of Amo, west of Indianapolis, the PRR station is now the office for the Amo Feed & Grain. It is constructed of dark red brick with dark green window trim. It looks alot like the same style of building as the Pennsy's Johnstown station when I went to see it a few years ago. Also, in Greencastle, the old PRR Freight station is still standing. It doesn't look as if it is being used, but I took some pictures of it and some pictures around where Limedale Tower used to be one day. if you want, I can try to find them & scan them for you. Other than that, I cannot think of any other surviving structures around my area. E.J. Caylor ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "N Campbell" Subject: Re: [PRR] UPDATE: Model Power Freight Sharks Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:23:23 -0500 Jerry The Model Power Sharks are the RF16s Neil >Were the Model Power freight sharks of the DR 4-4-15A variety, or the >later RF-16? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:09:44 EST Subject: [PRR] Remaining track at Richmond IN In a message dated 11/11/98 5:58:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: > Yard in Richmond is gone. Line in Richmond is still in, having been > bought by N&W (?NS). Without good maps, which I don't have, I can't > tell you what they managed to connect to what with this bit of the PRR. Mark, I think you'll find that the logic here is that the N&W acquired PRR's Richmond Branch. It came up from Cincinnati and joined the Panhandle main at GLEN interlocking at the east end of the Richmond yard. Once through Richmond and past the depot and NEWMAN, the Richmond Branch crossed a bridge (over the ? River and the C&O of Indiana), departed the Indianapolis main, and headed northwest for New Castle and a NKP/LE&W branch north to the NKP main at Fort Wayne. Thus, the only part of the Columbus-to-St. Louis main still in around here is the short distance through Richmond between GLEN and NEWMAN. Regards, Rick T. LWF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 21:53:17 -0500 From: DjM Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) Mark Bej wrote: > > In Indi, branch to Louisville still there, and I believe this is still > in all the way. This line was sold by Conrail to a shortline operator several years ago and the railroad's new name is (was) the Louisville and Indiana. They even had a Tuscan colored keystone logo with their initials inside ... though not sure if they still use it, haven't been around that area (Jeffersonville, IN) for several years. -D -- David Mikulec The DT&I Modelers Page http://DTI.Railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PDB1854@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:07:40 EST Subject: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum/Amtrak (long) Greetings to all. For the last day or so I have watched and read the postings regarding a recent article in the Harrisburg Patriot News regarding Amtrak's new service and schedule across Western Pennsylvania. And normally I am a "silent" list- subscriber, choosing to respond directly rather than to the list. Because this is potentially a very volatile issue, I am now going, as Paul Harvey would say, to tell the "rest of the story." First and perhaps foremost, this was not an article we sought. We did not contact the media "whining" or with an "axe to grind" with Amtrak. We were contacted by the reporter after an editor heard from several Tourist Promotion Agencies (TPA's) that the new Amtrak schedule was contrary to growing the casual tourist market in Western Pennsylvania (a significant "plank" in Governor Ridge's 1994 campaign). However, given the opportunity to comment on recent trends at Amtrak that do impact Museum operations, I responded. Since 1996 the Museum has seen the composition of its visitors change in a troubling way. In 1996, 28% of all Museum visitors came in "groups." Groups accounted for 24% of all visits in 1997 and we predict will do no better than 20 or 21% this year. "Why," we asked the motorcoach industry and group leaders. The overwhelming response we heard, and continue to hear, is that Amtrak is "uncooperative toward booking groups, unreliable and inconvenient in terms of schedule." And comments such as these, directed to a public or quasi-public agency, gets my attention. Beginning 11 years ago, the National Park Service at the Johnstown Flood National Memorial, began a program called "Tracks Through Time." On Thursday, Friday and Saturday from May through October the Park Service would board a ranger on Amtrak #42 (at the time) in Johnstown and give an interpretive program over the train PA en route to Altoona. After a layover that at first was three hours, the ranger would board #43 for the trip back to Johnstown. It was promoted in Amtrak's timetables and through regional TPA's. By 1992 over 12,000 persons a year were riding Amtrak because of this program. Not a major impact I admit, but we were creating business for Amtrak at absolutely no additional cost to the carrier. In 1994, I commissioned a major study, "Ridge Rail Excursions." We spent $30,000 of our money studying ridership on the Amtrak western Pennsylvania service. We published the 85 page document in early 1995 and went to Amtrak and elected officials at the State and Federal level to garner support. What we said to Amtrak was simple: ridership was in decline on the Pennsylvanian. Let the Museum be a ticket agent for the unreserved trains, selling space daily, over the phone, in person, however it might occur. Let us keep the 15% travel agency commission and we promised to use the revenue generated to further market the Amtrak service between Pittsburgh and Altoona. We predicted we could increase Amtrak revenues by $1-2 million per year with no added cost to Amtrak. As you might expect, not one senior Amtrak official chose even the courtesy of a response -- negative or otherwise. Almost immediately after publishing the report Amtrak began "tinkering" with the schedule of #42 and #43. The window of time in Altoona shrunk from 3 hours to less than an hour. No longer was it feasible to market this as a heritage experience that would include the Museum (or any other business in Altoona). Overnight we lost 8,000 individual visitors. Scheduling was so ridiculous this year that the NPS, exasperated, gave up. So in 1996 we shifted focus to the motorcoach component of our business. This is mostly a senior citizen market and they want an on-train, around Horseshoe Curve experience. Fine, worked OK for buses. Coaches traveled inbound from wherever, arrived in the late morning, toured the Museum, perhaps the Curve, had lunch (typically at Hoss's by the way), and took #43 west to Johnstown. At Johnstown they were met by their bus, they visited the Flood Museum, the Incline and went on their way. A relatively good business climate. And now we can't even do that and yes, I fear the loss of business -- anyone in business would. Its simply impractical for group operators to get to Altoona from say Pittsburgh or Lancaster or Washington by 9am to tour the Museum before boarding an 11:20 am train to Johnstown. They can't successfully market tours where the bus has to roll at 6am! The alternative, east from Johnstown on The Three Rivers, is laughable. If that train makes it to Altoona less than 90 minutes late we consider it a good day. But again, ask a bus of 45 senior citizens to twiddle their thumbs in an unfamiliar train station for an hour-and-a-half. Not likely. Buses cancelled every single day because the service reliability was zero. And curiously, while all this is going on, I watch out my window in the Master Mechanics Building and see The Three Rivers growing and growing. But not with passenger services and amenities; no sir, with freight cars. My biggest beef is that Amtrak has lost sight of the customer -- totally. They were chartered as an intercity passenger rail service; not a freight, mail or express service. I hate to say it but in my recent dealings with Amtrak the passenger is nothing short of an invconvenience. And yes, Mr. Black, of course you can't serve every imtermediate market with a high level of service; certainly there are sacrifices. But this new schedule clearly doesn't accommodate the "end-point" traveler. If you want to argue that point, look first at the schedule for the "new" Pennsylvanian. It arrives in Chicago at 11:59 pm and the opposite train arrives in Philadelphia at 12:25am. I don't know how the rest of the you might feel but I sure as heck don't want to arrive in either of those points at Midnight. Restaurants are closed and add an hour to get to a hotel -- boy you'll be fresh for that 9am business appointment! And all that after traveling for 18 hours with only a snack car. No the train now serves the US Postal Service -- it was designed for and perhaps by the Postal Service for efficient and less costly movement of mail between those points. And I like low cost mail service; I'll bet we all do. But don't tell me we have a reasonable alternative to the airplane or automobile in passenger rail service with scheduling that blatently inconvenient. So in the end who wins? Certainly we as a museum don't. Businesses in Altoona and Johnstown don't. The person considering Amtrak for business or pleasure travel doesn't. Sure you can see Horseshoe Curve from an Amtrak train in daylight -- that isn't the issue. How much one can sacrifice for the ability to do so is. I' m convinced Amtrak will die by their own hand. Perhaps the sooner, the better. Sorry for the bandwidth. Peter Barton Executive Director Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum Horseshoe Curve NHL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: RE: [PRR] Web Cam in HARRIS Tower!!! Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 21:51:30 -0500 DON'T EVER GET MY HOPES UP LIKE THAT AGAIN!! LOL So, will the train frequency be the same as by the original? Josh Trower ---------- From: Jerry[SMTP:jerry@dsop.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 11:10 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Web Cam in HARRIS Tower!!! What a come on!!! No, not the real HARRIS tower... I just finished testing web cam software with my server. Works great! And for only $20! (I already had video input capability.) Now I can't wait to start construction of my layout. Integral with the plan will be the ability to mount a camera behind (north of) HARRIS tower. During operating sessions, those on the internet will be able to look eastbound past HARRIS and into my Harrisburg Passenger Station complex. Alternate locations on the layout would be the Harrisburg Locomotive Facility and ROCKVILLE junction (the Sunbury Branch goes out of sight and is the lead to my staging area). Cool! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:42:44 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) From: caylorman@juno.com (E.J. Caylor) Steve, I've got some pics from Limedale that I'm thinking about scanning. When I find them & get them scanned, I could send them to you if you want. E.J. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:26:25 -0500 From: steve long Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) Hey guys, you won't believe it but I have a complete set of the original prints of the I&F branch in it's entireity. It shows all property lines and track layout as well as overpasses. It's really too fragile to ship anywhere since it's on onion paper. It was built in 1916, same year when the Vandalia went under the PCC&STL flag. I also have the CTC signal prints to Limedale showing all trackwork from Bridgeport to Limedale plus the interlocking with the Monon. I just wish I had some good shots of Limedale that included the depot Steve Long. E.J. Caylor wrote: > The I&F Branch is also in use by Central of Indianapolis too. I've seen > a couple of their trains on the line as well. Conrail was just repairing > track & replacing ballast up around Lebanon, as I had seen the hoppers on > my drive home from Purdue. The portion of the Panhandle that I live the > nearest to, Indy to Limedale, doesn't have much of anything. The most I > have seen are a few bridge abutments and an intact deck-girder bridge > between Clayton & Amo (they're in the ETT), and a few small concrete > rectangular buildings that look like they might have once housed some > sort of switch machine (If I remember correctly from my ETTs, they are > located at opposite ends of a passing siding) > > Frank, come to think of it, there is at least one old PRR station still > standing on the Panhandle. In the town of Amo, west of Indianapolis, the > PRR station is now the office for the Amo Feed & Grain. It is > constructed of dark red brick with dark green window trim. It looks alot > like the same style of building as the Pennsy's Johnstown station when I > went to see it a few years ago. Also, in Greencastle, the old PRR > Freight station is still standing. It doesn't look as if it is being > used, but I took some pictures of it and some pictures around where > Limedale Tower used to be one day. if you want, I can try to find them & > scan them for you. Other than that, I cannot think of any other > surviving structures around my area. > > E.J. Caylor > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad > products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark T. Evans" Subject: [PRR] Custom Railway Supply Trust Plates Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:29:08 -0800 I'm looking for HO scale etched brass equipment trust plate sets produced at one time by Custom Railway Supply. Specifically, I would like to find (Walthers) Part No. 212-275, Passenger and Freight Cars. Please contact me at mtevans@jps.net if you can help. Thanks! Mark T. Evans ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 21:56:10 -0500 From: Edward Long Subject: Re: [PRR] Remaining track at Richmond IN RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/11/98 5:58:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, bejm@eeg.ccf.org > writes: > > > Yard in Richmond is gone. Line in Richmond is still in, having been > > bought by N&W (?NS). Without good maps, which I don't have, I can't > > tell you what they managed to connect to what with this bit of the PRR. > Mark, > I think you'll find that the logic here is that the N&W acquired PRR's > Richmond Branch. It came up from Cincinnati and joined the Panhandle main at > GLEN interlocking at the east end of the Richmond yard. Once through Richmond > and past the depot and NEWMAN, the Richmond Branch crossed a bridge (over the > ? River and the C&O of Indiana) ( West Fork of the Whitewater River ) Indy line > intatct out to old state hospital abandoned West of that point to > Indianapolis. Ed Long > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Passenger Cars at Altoona Museum Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:51:29 -0800 On my recent visit to PA I saw three passenger cars sitting just outside of the museum yard just under the overpass walkway. One is in Penn Central livery, one in Pennsy MOW yellow, and one appears to be a tuscan "streamlined" Pennsy car. I was told by someone at the museum that these cars were donated to NRHS for restoration purposes. Does anyone know about these cars? Thanks, Greg Stone PRRTHS member always interested in info or photos of Renovo Yards GAS@fastinet.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] M1 on the broadway Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:42:36 -0800 If the M1 was developed for pulling heavy passenger trains over the mountains, did it ever see service on the broadway? Greg Stone PRRT&HS member always seeking info and photos on the Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:39:55 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) From: caylorman@juno.com (E.J. Caylor) According to Conrail ETT's, Louisville & Indiana (LIRC) starts about a mile south of DALE on the Indianapolis Belt. It runs south & has a in Jeffersonville right next to I-65. I assume it is an old PRR yard, and about a mile or so north there stands a tower (I have pictures of both the tower & the yard). Also, to the south, I have a picture of a railroad bridge over the ohio, but there are no approaches to it. Does anyone know who this belongs to? E.J. Caylor PS: The engines I have pictures of are rebuilt GP16's in Family Lines paint. They were rebuilt in Waycross I believe sometime in the 70's. ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] 1938 Broadway Cars Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:46:44 -0800 When the pennsy put the 1948 broadway cars in service what happened specifically to the 1938 broadway cars. Does anyone know where they were used? Were they broken up to use amoung many other trains or sent as a group to another assignment? Greg Stone PRRT&HS member Always interested in info. and photos of Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:30:10 -0500 From: DjM Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) "E.J. Caylor" wrote: > According to Conrail ETT's, Louisville & Indiana (LIRC) starts about a > mile south of DALE on the Indianapolis Belt. It runs south & has a in > Jeffersonville right next to I-65. I assume it is an old PRR yard, and > about a mile or so north there stands a tower (I have pictures of both > the tower & the yard). Don't know how long the yard has been there, all the buildings look to be of newer design tho. The tower you mention may be the abandoned B&O tower. The only one left standing in the area, that I know of. > Also, to the south, I have a picture of a > railroad bridge over the ohio, but there are no approaches to it. Does > anyone know who this belongs to? > That would be the old Big Four bridge. The L&I uses and is responsible for the old PRR lift bridge that crosses the Ohio. I'd like to know what the maintenance costs on that are! > > E.J. Caylor > > PS: The engines I have pictures of are rebuilt GP16's in Family Lines > paint. They were rebuilt in Waycross I believe sometime in the 70's. > I've got a video I shot back in 95, in their first days of operation ... caught a southbound local with no less than 6 GP16s, running in at least notch 6, on old jointed rail ... boy the racket it made ... music to my ears. :-) The track was in horrible shape when L&I got it, and I'm glad they never suffered any derailments. Many sections I saw were that bad. Shame on Conrail. Anyone have any updated info on the L&I and their operations ? -D -- David Mikulec The DT&I Modelers Page http://DTI.Railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:23:18 -0500 From: steve long Subject: [PRR] signal layouts for specific interlockings and crossings I just dug thru one of my boxes of goodies and found something for everyone, see what you think. I will list below which layouts I have. The last time I sent a Jpeg as an attachment to the PRR- talk, it got stripped from the message. If you want a Jpeg of a certain interlocking listed let me know. Most are on blueprint. I have made positives of a few but it takes a lot of time. A few has nothing but stop boards for protection. Here's the list : PRR interlockings Burnham, Ill Calumet Park,Ill Ford Street, Chicago, Ill Western Avenue, Chicago 49th St Chicago 75th St. Chicago Beverly Junction, Chicago Washington Heights, Ill. West Pullman, Ill Riverdale, Ill Dolton, Ill Bernice, Ill South Branch Bridge, Chicago Alton Jct., Ill, Chicago (40th)Root Street ,Chicago, Ill Englewood, Ill River Branch Jct., Ill Colehour Jct. Chicago Whiting, Indiana Indiana Harbor, Indiana (ship canal) "" " " " " " PFW&C crossing NYC RR Clarke Jct., Indiana Tollestone, Indiana Liverpool, Indiana Hobart, Indiana Brighton Park-Cabin A-Cabin B This one is a dandy, double track Chicago&Alton crossing the following: Chicago Junction,3 track + B&O double track +Panhandle 3 track Ash Street, Chicago looks like a operator's nightmare, non-interlocked 4 parallel track crossing 9 others. 26th street, Chicago non-interlocked 12th street, Chicago non " " 106th street & Calumet Railway non " '" Hammond junction-Wolf lake branch non " " East Chicago right-of way crossing No.1 non " " "" " " " " " No. 3 non Calumet, Indiana Republic,Indiana Hegewisch, Ill Maynard, Indiana Airline, Indiana Lapaz Jct. Indiana Plymouth, Indiana Hibbard, Indiana Delong, Indiana Kewanna, Indiana Remington, Indiana Reynolds, Indiana Bunker Hill, Indiana Redkey, Indiana Union City, Indiana Monticello, Indiana Stateline Tower, Indiana Big Four Lafayette Junction, Indiana Well that's it for now. Steve Long ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:17:09 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Amtrak and the curve Hello you all.... I add a amen to Peter Barton's post....While Amtrak is America's last best hope for intercity rail passenger service...It not what it started out to be...My dad makes a run on the NEC and hes seen it all over the years....In a recent conversation with him he was telling me how Amtrak is trying to cut costs with the train crews too...been doing it for years. I'll give you two examples.... One is the railroader cars that are tacked onto the back of trains. To me this type of car should'nt be on a passenger train...sure Amtrak needs a positive cash flow to get off the Government dole...but they should run those cars on a separate train. Dad says the cars could be unsafe at the high speeds Amtrak wants to evenually run them up to. And some of the members of crews don't even know how to cut them in and out of a train if there was a emergency.Not enough old hands to show them how anymore...And Amtrak is'nt too worried about giving them enough proper training for them right now. Another Amtrak guffaw is the new high-speed trains that they are coming out with for the NEC....Sure the trains will be nice...and fast.... but theres one thing they did'nt concider...the Hudson tunnel width. the new cars will fit in the southbound tunnel...but not the northbound one the cars are too wide. Too bad that they finally realized this after they started to build them.... And what about all the large towns that don't have Amtrak service,but all the little backwater one stoplight towns that do... SEE what i mean...Too many chiefs and not enough indians..... Dad even told me that there is this guy...At first he did'nt know what his job was....Then he found out that all the guy is supposed to do all day 5 days a week is make sure the clocks at the station are working and correct....gee that could be done once a week.Sheesh....what a waste of money....Dad says that Amtrak now has bosses on top of bosses on top of bosses.....Thats where the waste of Amtrak money is.... Cut some of the unneeded management out...get some folks who know how to run trains and make money....and put that money in services that need it. "Still thinking that i gotta get dad on this list"...sheesh. Dad said it right one time about the old way railroads were ran once...The folks back them knew what they were doing and how to do it...Now Amtrak thinks anyone can run one...I feel you still need to know how. I wish the Claytors were still around. Sure they cut trains off of the Southern...but at least they knew that either you made money... or at least covered the losses with freight income or cut the losses completely. You all would'nt believe the waste there is in Amtrak. It was also said best years ago....either properly fund Amtrak or do away with it....Amtrak has been strung along for years....and now we have this wasteful bunch running it.... Well this is where i'm gonna leave this...I've probably said too much already.... Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 01:02:20 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] 1938 Broadway Cars In a message dated 11/11/98 11:19:42 PM Central Standard Time, gas@fastinet.net writes: << When the pennsy put the 1948 broadway cars in service what happened specifically to the 1938 broadway cars. Does anyone know where they were used? Were they broken up to use amoung many other trains or sent as a group to another assignment? >> The observation was assigned to the General, which up til that time had not had a tailend car. Painted in the 1948 scheme, retaining its full-length skirting (and napoleon hat triple bolster trucks). Eventually wound up on the Mexican Railway. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 00:21:50 -0800 (PST) From: andy mulhollen Subject: [PRR] Passenger cars at Altoona Railroaders Mem. Museum In answer to Greg Stone's question, The cars now belong to the Horseshoe Curve Chapter of the NRHS. Well two of them do. The car painted in MOW yellow is a heavyweight Pullman solarium car the Union League Club. The Streamlined car is the Bar/Lounge car the Nicholas Firestone. These cars are both in fairly good shape. We hope to eventually restore these cars at least cosmetically. We are currently in negotiations to lease a siding in Altoona in which to store them for now. We also want to get the roofs coated and such to stablize them for the time being. We are currently cosmetically restoring the Buisness car Duquesne. It is currently sandblasted and stored at Union Tank Car in Altoona. We are working on replacing some of the sheet metal around the windows. Work on it has been on hold for some time because of the large amount of tank cars being refurbished there has left them little time to work on the Duquesne. Finally the Penn Central car is a P70 coach that is in pretty poor condition and is I believe going to be scrapped. If you wish any further info on this or our chapter feel free to email me. Andy J. Mulhollen Member Horseshoe Curve NRHS _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 02:21:31 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] M1 on the broadway >If the M1 was developed for pulling heavy passenger trains over the >mountains, did it ever see service on the Broadway? Greetings to Greg and the list: The key rule to remember about the PRR is "never say never." So while I'd be foolish to say flatly that no M1 ever pulled the Broadway, it's unlikely that this was ever a regular assignment. A couple of reasons: The Broadway was not a "heavy passenger train," at least by PRR mainline standards. An RPO, five to 10 sleepers (some with configurations that included the lounge and the observation), and a diner. (And not even a diner always in earlier years, when it was cut out in the overnight, non-meal-hour portions of the run). So 28/29 could run as few as seven cars plus the RPO. The heaviest PRR passenger trains were twice, even three times that length, had lots of baggage/head-end cars, etc. But the Broadway's normal consist was fully capable of being handled at 75-80 mph by a single K4 on almost everything [on the Broadway route] but the Pittsburgh Division, where of course the PRR dealt with the problem the way it dealt with all problems -- by throwing money at them (another K4, another crew). Another reason: In the era you're citing, it was PRR practice to keep the same steam engine on its passenger trains from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh. Why couple an M1 on at Harris Tower to run all the way through to Pittsburgh -- almost 250 miles -- when its greater power would be of substantial use only between Altoona and Gallitzin, 12 miles, or eastbound, going up the West Slope from Johnstown to Gallitzin? Much simpler to just doublehead where it was needed on a spot-application basis, a logical extension of the 1840s operating philosophy of J. Edgar Thomson in surveying/locating the right-of-way. Also, the M1, limited by the physics of its 72-inch drivers, would have been unlikely to be able to furnish the kind of speed-in-reserve necessary to not only maintain the published schedule, but also recover when the schedule got stabbed. On the Middle Division, the best steam-era published nonstop Harrisburg-Altoona running times were about 2:20 for 130.8 miles, or close to 57 mph average, remember, that includes slowing to 30 or so for places like Rockville and all the curves between Huntingdon & Tyrone. So for the Broadway, speed was needed more than power. The one place I *have* seen more than an occasional photo of M1s in passenger service was on the Buffalo main, at least between Harrisburg and Williamsport. Hope this helps. Dan Dan Cupper Dan@cwix.com 1 Corinthians 15:58 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 05:41:51 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Gets The Shaft In a message dated 98-11-11 13:48:36 EST, johncoop@microsoft.com writes: << What you cannot do, however, is ride only between New Haven and New York on Amtrak. As part of trackage rights over the Metro North Commuter Railroad (New Rochelle to New Haven), Amtrak agreed not compete for customers. So if >> This was true for most of Amtrak's history. But several years back the agreement was amended (I think it was at the time that Amtrak abandoned Grand Central.) Now you can buy Amtrak tickets to, from, or between, all points in MetroNorth territory that Amtrak serves. Prices are 3-4 times higher on Amtrak, so very few tickets are sold for the short trips, i.e. New Haven-Stamford. But quite a few people pay for the speed advantage on the New Haven-New York route. During the original agreement John speaks of, the Amtrak fare from NY to Wallingford,Ct. (1 stop beyond New Haven) was the same as their fare to New Haven itself. Many customers circumvented the rules by purchasing a Wallingford ticket and just hopping off at New Haven. Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Cars at Altoona Museum Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 06:24:24 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/11/98 10:51 PM, Greg Stone (gas@fastinet.net) wrote: >On my recent visit to PA I saw three passenger cars sitting just outside of >the museum yard just under the overpass walkway. One is in Penn Central >livery, one in Pennsy MOW yellow, and one appears to be a tuscan >"streamlined" Pennsy car. I was told by someone at the museum that these >cars were donated to NRHS for restoration purposes. Does anyone know about >these cars? One is the "Nicholas Firestone". I took a picture of it at RailFest. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 07:05:31 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: [PRR] RF16's for sale Greetings, This was posted on the Backshop List, maybe some of you would be intyerested in the 2 RF16's in the list.... From: "BKulik" I'm thinning my collection to better focus on my prototype and era. My loss is your gain. All are custom finished and come with KD's, details added. Price plus shipping via UPS. 2 engines, I'll split the shipping. 3 or more, shipping's on me. Some "what if" models: PA-1 Athearn. BAR tri-color. Detailed with grab irons, windsheild wipers, etc. Can motor. $45 H24-66. Athearn. B&M McGinnis blue. Dummy unit. $15 Prototype models: GP-35 Rail Power body/Cannon high hood on Athearn chassis. Springfield Terminal $50 SD-26. Kitbashed from Atlas body/low nose from a Mantua GP-20. Springfield Terminal. SHELL ONLY; will fit either an Athearn SD-9 or Atlas SD-24 chassis. $25. GP-35. Bachmann. Reading. Missing black diamond herald on fireman's side. Otherwise OK. $15. PRR RF-16 a &b. ALCO Models. Both powered. Brunswick green with single stripe. $160. GP-7. Front Range. Maine Central #576 in harvest yellow. Brandon Kulik kulik01@mint.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] 1938 Broadway Cars From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 08:36:44 -0500 In a message dated 11/11/98 11:19:42 PM Central Standard Time, gas@fastinet.net writes: << When the pennsy put the 1948 broadway cars in service what happened specifically to the 1938 broadway cars. Does anyone know where they were used? Were they broken up to use amoung many other trains or sent as a group to another assignment? >> The observation was assigned to the General, which up til that time had not had a tailend car. Painted in the 1948 scheme, retaining its full-length skirting (and napoleon hat triple bolster trucks). Eventually wound up on the Mexican Railway. Bob Zoeller - ----------------- And I believe that may of the 10-5s were repainted in MP colors for thru service on the Penn Texas. All of the sleepers found their way to "lesser" trains. 18 roomette cars were a regular on the Federal. I think only the D70 diners were retired early. regards Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:34:04 +0000 From: "Roger P. Hensley" Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 21:53:17 -0500 > From: DjM > To: Mark Bej > Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) > This line was sold by Conrail to a shortline operator several years ago and the > railroad's new name is (was) the Louisville and Indiana. They even had a Tuscan > colored keystone logo with their initials inside ... though not sure if they still > use it, haven't been around that area (Jeffersonville, IN) for several years. Still do. They generally have a loco hanging out around Columbus Indiana. Fairly busy durint the week. Very quiet on the weekends. Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org == http://bsuvc.bsu.edu/~00rphensley/cidwelco.html ========= == Railroads of Madison County (Indiana) =================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVPedro@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:23:57 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum Gets The Shaft There are other places where you cnnot take Amtrak on certain trains, such as NYP or PHL to Paoli or Harrisburg on train 41. Or in the other direction on train 40. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Shawn O'Day" Subject: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 11:54:34 -0800 Time for me to jump in.... >>The other being >>Crestline to Chicago, and somewhere-short-of-Carrothers to Toledo.) Actually the Northern Ohio & Western operates the PRR north from Tiffin to Woodville...from here CR operates into Walbridge and Toledo...This line has/had several large quarry operations located along it. Tiffin is the site of the American Standard Company (toilet fame) and still gets plenty of clay slurry tankcars....Some position light signals still stand but I think all are deactivated.... >>Pittsburgh to Weirton I believe is cut in two. Uncertain. A recent trip to this area and Mingo Jct confirms that the line to Pittsbugh is indeed severed...we crossed over it in Weirton and noticed a nice sweepin ROW minus tracks that would of been the PRR (see a previous trip report on CR-Talk, or I'll send it to ya). Basically the PRR main is just a long tail track used to serve Weirton Steel CO. >>Weirton to Columbus (Newark) is in, now operated by the Ohio Central. >>Columbus to London is in. From there to Cincinnati much is out, >> with some stuff near Cincinnati proper still in, operated by I&O. >> Tom Vondruska would be the best person to comment on this. The section near Coshocton is very scenic also.... Lots of good info on this subject being posted recently...Is anyone putting this all together in a webpage/database or something for future records and/or updating....History is great!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FRANKGARON@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 11:49:33 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) That tower in Jeffersonville is probably Boyd, IIRC. It's at the PRR/B&O diamond and has been closed since al least the mid 80's. The B&O line also may still have WI tower in Watson, IN still standing. Combine those 2 with the B&O tower in Seymour, IN PRR crosses the B&O ML to St. Louis and Clagg in Louisville proper, and you have a nice little concentration of towers in a small area. Frank Garon Perth Amboy, NJ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:29:53 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak and the curve From: locoshop@juno.com Hello all, On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:17:09 -0500 (EST) bubbles@visi.net writes: > One is the railroader cars that are tacked onto the back of trains. > To me this type of car should'nt be on a passenger train...sure Amtrak > needs a positive cash flow to get off the Government dole...but they > should run those cars on a separate train. Dad says the cars could be > unsafe at the high speeds Amtrak wants to evenually run them up to. > And some of the members of crews don't even know how to cut them in and > out of a train if there was a emergency.Not enough old hands to show them > how anymore...And Amtrak is'nt too worried about giving them enough > proper training for them right now. I wanted to put in a quick response to this one. Amtrak will not and cannot run the cars as a seperate train. The railroads would throw them off, quickly. Remember Amtrak is on trackage rights deal that allows them to run passenger trains, not freight trains. They are tagging these cars onto the passenger trains because of their faster schedule to get the cars across the country. Amtrak had a hard time getting Conrail to sign the new contract for a five-year extension of services because they are already running certain areas at capacity, and if more trains need to run then they need to add track and Amtrak does not pick up this expense, Conrail does. Conrail runs freight, Amtrak runs passengers. The add on cars hail back to the lcl business that was carried by railroads earlier this century so Amtrak feels a right to do this. Just some thought of mine (definitely not all of them on Amtrak). Jeremy Helms Conrail & Norfolk Southern Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:48:38 EST Subject: [PRR] Locating Towers in Greencastle IN In a message dated 11/12/98 12:21:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, caylorman@juno.com writes: > Steve, > I've got some pics from Limedale that I'm thinking about scanning. > When I find them & get them scanned, I could send them to you if you > want. > > E.J. E.J., I'd be interested too. Bet I'm not alone. Rick Tipton LWF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 12:15:06 -0500 From: DjM Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers in Indianapolis (long) FRANKGARON@aol.com wrote: > That tower in Jeffersonville is probably Boyd, IIRC. It's at the PRR/B&O > diamond and has > been closed since al least the mid 80's. Yup, that's the one. Was still there as of 3 years ago ... got photos from inside and out, as it had been long abandoned and gutted by vandals. > The B&O line also may still have WI > tower in Watson, IN still standing. Combine those 2 with the B&O tower in > Seymour, IN PRR crosses the B&O ML to St. Louis and Clagg in Louisville > proper, and you have a nice little concentration of towers in a small area. > Don't know about the others, but the B&O/PRR tower at Seymour came down, courtesy of CSX, in '94, a year before I got there to video the L&I.. A relay case now takes it's place. -D -- David Mikulec The DT&I Modelers Page http://DTI.Railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:48:37 EST Subject: [PRR] Locating Yards and Towers north of Louisville In a message dated 11/12/98 12:22:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, caylorman@juno.com writes: > According to Conrail ETT's, Louisville & Indiana (LIRC) starts about a > mile south of DALE on the Indianapolis Belt. It runs south & has a yard in > Jeffersonville right next to I-65. I assume it is an old PRR yard, Yes, JEFF YARD is still fully active for LIRC > and > about a mile or so north there stands a tower Called BOYD by the PRR and X by the B&O. The two story brick and concrete structure is now a wrecked shell, but still stands guarding the B&O's branch from WATSON to NEW ALBANY. The B&O is headed for the Ohio River, where it crosses the K&IT BRIDGE and enters YOUNGTOWN YARD (Norfolk Southern, formerly Kentucky and Indiana Terminal Railway). The LIRC/PRR runs south out of Jeffersonville Yard, past a large Colgate Palmolive plant and an ancient brick factory complex that used to be American Car & Foundry/Ohio Falls Car Co., and crosses the Ohio River at the Falls of the Ohio on a mile-long formerly double track bridge (locally known as the Pennsy bridge or the Panhandle bridge). At the south end of the bridge is a drawbridge, controlled by a brick tower named CLAGG. >Also, to the south, I have a picture of a > railroad bridge over the ohio, but there are no approaches to it. Does > anyone know who this belongs to? > This third bridge is just upstream from downtown, and despite being built with "Pennsylvania trusses", a curved-chord Warren truss variant, is called "the Big Four bridge". Technically operated as part of the Louisville & Jeffersonville Bridge & Terminal Company (controlled by NYC), it formed a link from Jeffersonville to Louisville's Central Station, on the waterfront at 7th Street. NYC and B&O passenger trains came to Louisville via the B&O branch from the north through North Vernon IN. Once Central Station closed, the Big Four bridge was redundant. Its approaches were cut up, but scrapping the part over water is awkward; the Ohio has heavy towboat traffic, and nobody wants to close the river to demolish the bridge. In the meantime, it serves two civic purposes: 1) at Christmas, it's lit up with strings of lights. 2) whenever a new broadcaster comes to Louisville, they are quickly passed a traffic advisory that a traffic accident has "closed the Big Four bridge", and everybody has a good laugh. Apparently few radio and TV personalities are railfans, and it gets 'em every time. THE CURIOUS CASE OF THE NORTH-SOUTH ROUTES BTW, as mentioned elsewhere, the CSX is very interested in acquiring the LIRC as a direct route from Louisville to Indy/BIG FOUR YARD. This could be really helpful in breaking the traffic jam at Cincinnati; traffic from south of Louisville could go north to BIG FOUR, and be routed onto the NYC/Big Four's "Bee Line" to Cleveland. This would give some relief to Cincinnati's QUEENSGATE YARD, which although remodeled in the 80s now has nowhere to expand. The above from a source on CSX; while not official, it's something that may be in the works. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Michael Capone" Subject: [PRR] PRR East Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 12:48:25 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE0E3A.BD705420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Great to hear all the interest in the PRR out there, but how about some = news,info,etc for the area New Jersey and New York and the old = "stepchild" the Long Island Railroad? Still see some old PRR freight = cars running around Long Island and in Oak Island yard in NJ. Hope to = hear from anyone! Mike Long Island, NY ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE0E3A.BD705420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Great to hear all the interest in = the PRR out=20 there, but how about some news,info,etc for the area New Jersey and New = York and=20 the old "stepchild" the Long Island Railroad? Still see some = old PRR=20 freight cars running around Long Island and in Oak Island yard in NJ. = Hope to=20 hear from anyone!
 
Mike
Long Island, = NY
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE0E3A.BD705420-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 11:24:42 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Custom Railway Supply Trust Plates Mark: Unless you find someone who is willing to part with sets of the trust plates, they cannot be had. When the owner of Custom Railway Supply passed away, I contacted his daughter who was selling off the remaining inventory. I asked about buying the art work to do the etchings. She was willing to sell them to me but after searching all her father's items she informed me that the art work had been damaged and was not usable. So without new art work there are no items to be had. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FRANKGARON@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 12:50:50 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Locating Towers in Greencastle IN I have an old B&W print of Limedale before it was resided, it was a nice looking tower! I also have a cool shot of a L&N train going past it in PC days. I will try to scan these in soon to the RSHS.org site, and will swap JPEGs with anyone interested, but my scanner is acting up right now! I am an avid tower and depot nut, so anybody that wants to do some trading, contact me offline. Frank Garon Perth Amboy, NJ (raised on GG1's) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 13:47:24 +0000 From: "Roger P. Hensley" Subject: Re: [PRR] Remaining track at Richmond IN > From: FRANKGARON@aol.com > Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 11:39:11 EST > To: RickTipton@aol.com > Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Remaining track at Richmond IN > I might be wrong, but doesn't a few miles of the St. Louis still exist west of > Richmond? I believe it went to Centerville? Didn't Conrail have trackage > rights on the N&W from somewhere to get to this trackage? > > Frank Garon There's a little piece of the Richmond Branch left at New Castle that was accessed by CR from Anderson and Muncie and then to New Castle via the NS. The remainder of the line from New Castle to Anderson became inactive in 1993 and went to the scrapper in November of 1994. Is that what you were thinking of? Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org == http://bsuvc.bsu.edu/~00rphensley/cidwelco.html ========= == Railroads of Madison County (Indiana) =================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Station Master Job Duties Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 11:44:07 -0500 From: Jerry A few weeks ago I asked about the title of the person in charge of the passenger station and related facilities at Harrisburg, circa 1954. The inside back cover of "The Pennsy" usually lists promotions. I noticed one in a December 1953 issue that announced the promotion of someone to "Station Master, Harrisburg". Sounds like this title would be the top man within the station. What I wonder is, would he control all that relates to passenger operations between STATE and HARRIS, would he be in charge of REA movements south of the station, and would he "perhaps" be in charge of locomotive transfers north to the locomotive facility (which serviced passenger power; freight power was at Enola). Anyone know? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FRANKGARON@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 11:39:11 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Remaining track at Richmond IN I might be wrong, but doesn't a few miles of the St. Louis still exist west of Richmond? I believe it went to Centerville? Didn't Conrail have trackage rights on the N&W from somewhere to get to this trackage? Frank Garon Perth Amboy, NJ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Plywood Benchwork Opinion Sought Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 15:00:14 -0500 From: Jerry I have an opinion question about plywood benchwork. I know Ken McCorry has used it, and there is an article about it in the last issue of MR. I plan to have three levels. The lowest will be hidden staging. Just above that will be my middle level, the lowest visible to guests. This will be a locomotive facility and will be about 4' deep by 23' long. Besides being supported by the 23' wall behind it and the two end walls, it can have support from the floor along the front edge. The problem is the upper level. It will be my passenger station, also about 4' deep. I don't want to suspend it from the ceiling, nor do I want to support it from the middle level, as both would cause 2-3 view blocks along the viewing aisle. It will be supported along the 23' back wall and both ends, just like the middle level. Now, plywood is very strong, and I could use the 3/4" variety. Suppose that, before I drywall the room, I attack the "joists" of the upper level to the studs themselves. They would be in the shape of a giant "T", turned 90 degrees, with the top edge fastened securely along the stud. I would then just drywall around these supports, add a few cross braces, and of course the front edge linking them all together. The "T" would protrude 4' into the room, and the two legs connected to the stud would be 3.5" wide. I could, on the underside, create a slight easement onto the support, rather than a 90 degree cut. Also, during construction -- to support my weight, I could have temporary frontal supports. Okay, for you engineers out there: Does this sound doable and reliable? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FRANKGARON@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 14:50:15 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Remaining track at Richmond IN Hi Roger & list: The piece I am thinking of is the St. Louis line that heads west to Centerville after crossing the Whitewater River in Richmond, In. It is weird when you look at it there, the St. Louis line looks like a branch, and the New Castle line looks like it was the main. Frank Garon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:00:52 EST Subject: [PRR] Roadrailers on Conrail On Wednesday Nov 11th high winds from the Southwest caused a derailment to a Westbound Conrail Roadrailer train on the Sandusky Bay Causeway and Bridge on the old NYC "Lake Shore" line. According to newspaper accounts more than half of the 122 car train derailed, up to 15 of the "Triple Crown" cars, many empty, landed in Sandusky Bay. The high winds also caused Lake Erie water levels to sink by up to 6.5' and prevented waterborne relief equipment from reaching the scene. Conrail crews then "kicked" up to a dozen more cars into the Bay, in order to clear the line, which handles between 60 and 100 trains per day. This is totally "off topic" - except as it relates to the recent thread about similar equipment on Amtrak - which also uses this line. Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 16:32:19 +0000 From: "Roger P. Hensley" Subject: Re: [PRR] Plywood Benchwork Opinion Sought > Subject: [PRR] Plywood Benchwork Opinion Sought > Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 15:00:14 -0500 > From: Jerry > To: "PRR-Talk" , "MODELRR" > > The problem is the upper level. It will be my passenger station, also > about 4' deep. I don't want to suspend it from the ceiling, nor do I want > to support it from the middle level, as both would cause 2-3 view blocks > along the viewing aisle. It will be supported along the 23' back wall and > both ends, just like the middle level. This is the part that bothers me, Jerry, the 4 foot distance. I am sure that you could use a sutble angled support back in the back, but 4 feet is a looonnng way to expect anything to hold up for very long without sags. I think that you would do better with less distance.... say 30 inches or even 36 inches. Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org == http://cid.railfan.net ====================================== == Central Indiana Division, Midwest Region, NMRA ============== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:18:20 -0600 (CST) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: [PRR] PRR: Another I-1 question On all the I-1 engine photos I've seen, except the photo of the first I-1 in the Cyclopedia, the the bracket on which the reverse link is mounted is almost semi-circular. No other class of engine seems to have had that style. Anyone know why only the I-1? I did not like the Bowser mechanism as purchased - it looks like the Cyclopedia photo mentioned above - so I've spent a lot of time making measurements and a pattern, and finally have produced a bracket that looks about right. Then I got to wondering -- do any of the commercial outfits make such a bracket integrated into the boiler support that could replace Bowser's part? Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551-5926 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Plywood Benchwork Opinion Sought From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 16:06:20 -0500 Jerry, Plywood is not as strong as ordinary lumber of the same dimension, since half of its plys are alway in a useless orientation. That said, it probably will work given a few caveats. First is the 4' span. I don't know about you, but Micheal Jordan can not reach four feet! If the trains are constrained to the front 2 feet, and the back is just scenery, then it might work. Otherwise people are going to lean (hard) on the edge of the benchwork to reach trains in the back. On a multi-level RR, access holes are out of the question. Everything must be reachable from the front. The most obvious mode of failure for your plywood cantilevers, is to flop over to the side if there is no benchtop to stiffen them. If you are using open top benchwork, consider dialgonal bracing to stiffen the plywood cantilevers. You might even consider steel wire "truss rods"!! Don't forget the turnbuckles, since wire stretchs over time. One solution to the 4 foot problem is to build a new wall in the middle of the room and run 2 foot benchtops on each side. Put your helix at the end of the "table" and achor the whole thing to the ceiling. Alternately consider putting the helix in the middle and running the decks on one side half way up from the decks on the other side of the helix - sort of like a split-level house. That way you halve the time that the train is out of sight in the helix. regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ========= I have an opinion question about plywood benchwork. I know Ken McCorry has used it, and there is an article about it in the last issue of MR. I plan to have three levels. The lowest will be hidden staging. Just above that will be my middle level, the lowest visible to guests. This will be a locomotive facility and will be about 4' deep by 23' long. Besides being supported by the 23' wall behind it and the two end walls, it can have support from the floor along the front edge. The problem is the upper level. It will be my passenger station, also about 4' deep. I don't want to suspend it from the ceiling, nor do I want to support it from the middle level, as both would cause 2-3 view blocks along the viewing aisle. It will be supported along the 23' back wall and both ends, just like the middle level. Now, plywood is very strong, and I could use the 3/4" variety. Suppose that, before I drywall the room, I attack the "joists" of the upper level to the studs themselves. They would be in the shape of a giant "T", turned 90 degrees, with the top edge fastened securely along the stud. I would then just drywall around these supports, add a few cross braces, and of course the front edge linking them all together. The "T" would protrude 4' into the room, and the two legs connected to the stud would be 3.5" wide. I could, on the underside, create a slight easement onto the support, rather than a 90 degree cut. Also, during construction -- to support my weight, I could have temporary frontal supports. Okay, for you engineers out there: Does this sound doable and reliable? - ---------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! - --------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. - --------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 16:14:26 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum/Amtrak (long) ******Excellent , Peter...BUTT...try writing to George Warrington personnally... He was an excellent person to deal with in these situations, and implemented several tie-in deals when he was with his previous RR....This is too important to fade away....Bill *** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 17:28:03 EST Subject: [PRR] Modern stuff.... ***Just some quickies...Nov 11...( teletype background sounds, pls.....) LTV announced it would perm. close the Cleveland Works Finishing Operations... CR train RR281 derailed near Sandusky ( just mentioned on prrr-talk...a coincidence or what ????...jinx..???) 15 cars went into Sandusky Bay, Coast Guard alerted for unmanned floating objects, etc....Shut down the Chi Line Toledo to Cleve... On ebay, i saw a PRR Chic map 1958, and a Toledo LCL booklet, among other prr stuff. ....it fer now, bill*** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jed Hopewell" Subject: Re: [PRR] M1 on the broadway Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 14:13:43 PST > >>If the M1 was developed for pulling heavy passenger trains over the >>mountains, did it ever see service on the Broadway? >Broadway, speed was needed more than power. The one place I *have* seen more >than an occasional photo of M1s in passenger service was on the Buffalo >main, at least between Harrisburg and Williamsport. > >Hope this helps. >Dan > > >Dan Cupper >Dan@cwix.com >1 Corinthians 15:58 > > I second your statement on the use of M1's on the Buffalo Line. I saw the Penn Valley Pictures Susquehanna Division Film, which shows action around Northumberland and Sunbury, and many M1's were shown on the film. If I remember correctly, they were shown on freights as well. Jed ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 18:10:50 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR East and West In a message dated 11/12/98 1:36:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, pennsymike@worldnet.att.net writes: > Great to hear all the interest in the PRR out there, but how about some news, > info,etc for the area New Jersey and New York and the old "stepchild" the > Long Island Railroad? Still see some old PRR freight cars running around Long > Island and in Oak Island yard in NJ. Hope to hear from anyone! > > Mike > Long Island, NY > Mike, I like your turn of phrase, "all the interest in the PRR out there". As the X-files keeps reminding us, "the truth is out there somewhere". I too would like to see more postings on Lines East, even though my personal exposure to your end of the Pennsy pretty much stopped at Harrisburg. I did once get to Jersey City for one of those notorious harbor tours where the NRHS hijacks a Circle Line boat and spends the day touring rail-marine facilities. It was outrageous -- we got as far upriver (Passaic or ?,) at DOCK at Newark Penn Station. I apologize to you and all the Lines East folks for the wave of "cornfield Pennsy" that you are currently enduring. Please bear with us. Remember, in the East 30 years ago there were enough fan/historians to constitute a critical mass for gathering and conserving information on the PRR. Sheer concentrated numbers insured this worked by word of mouth, slide show, mag articles, books (lots of books), the PRRT&HS, and the Chapters. Meanwhile, Lines West, with equal or greater mileage, and its own unique historical peccadillos, has fans, but we're really spread out. For example, if I want to talk to another active PRRT&HS member, I drive 120 miles to Cincinnati or 120 miles to Indianapolis. Email and PRR-Talk has made all the difference to connect up Pennsy fans beyond Pittsburgh. It is enabling us to pick each other's brains, and conserve the knowledge of folks who were on parts of the railroad long before we saw them. Please bear with us, because we're bound to slow down. One of the things that makes me sad is that I never got to thank the late Jim Lynch for including western divisions in his Keystone articles on towers and facilities. An awareness that this kind of info must be preserved and documented encouraged me to read timetables and take physical plant photos, even when no train was in sight. So let's have more Pennsy, period! BTW, does anybody on the Long Island know about the BM-60 that Pennsy built for LI and N&W, but apparently never used itself? What LI numbers did they run under? Was the RPO compartment 15 foot or 30 foot? How late were they used? Best wishes, Rick Tipton Salivating Pennsy Fan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 16:53:10 -0500 (EST) From: Edward Turner - Atlanta - SSE Subject: Re: [PRR] Plywood Benchwork Opinion Sought Jerry, My take on this is - - the stress at the wall mount would be extreme. Four feet is an awful lot of free span when the attachment point is only 3 1/2 inches wide (assuming 2 x 4 stud walls). I would be particularly concerned about support during the construction phase. I have a simple 3/4" plywood 4' x 8' double loop layout about 20 % done. I can't tell you how many times I "lean" on the benchwork while I build scenery and structures. And I can get at it from all sides - so I only have to lean in 2 feet. I think your structure should be able to hold most of your weight to accomodate the construction phase. Four feet is a long way to reach :) Since you are building in your basement - I would suggest you re-look at using the ceiling (1st floor floor joists) as support for the end not attached to the wall. If you use a high strength braided wire cable, which can be quite small, I think you could make them almost invisible. The wire would alleviate veiwer blocking that would be created by wood supports. You could also get creative with their placement and plan them into the scenery to minimize the visual impact. Sounds like you are getting closer to breaking ground ? Regards, Ed > Subject: [PRR] Plywood Benchwork Opinion Sought > Date: Thu, 12 Nov 98 15:00:14 -0500 > From: Jerry > To: "PRR-Talk" , "MODELRR" > Mime-Version: 1.0 > List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.2 by Fog City Software, Inc. > List-Subscribe: > List-Digest: > List-Unsubscribe: > > I have an opinion question about plywood benchwork. I know Ken McCorry > has used it, and there is an article about it in the last issue of MR. > > I plan to have three levels. The lowest will be hidden staging. Just > above that will be my middle level, the lowest visible to guests. This > will be a locomotive facility and will be about 4' deep by 23' long. > Besides being supported by the 23' wall behind it and the two end walls, > it can have support from the floor along the front edge. > > The problem is the upper level. It will be my passenger station, also > about 4' deep. I don't want to suspend it from the ceiling, nor do I want > to support it from the middle level, as both would cause 2-3 view blocks > along the viewing aisle. It will be supported along the 23' back wall and > both ends, just like the middle level. > > Now, plywood is very strong, and I could use the 3/4" variety. Suppose > that, before I drywall the room, I attack the "joists" of the upper level > to the studs themselves. They would be in the shape of a giant "T", > turned 90 degrees, with the top edge fastened securely along the stud. I > would then just drywall around these supports, add a few cross braces, > and of course the front edge linking them all together. The "T" would > protrude 4' into the room, and the two legs connected to the stud would > be 3.5" wide. I could, on the underside, create a slight easement onto > the support, rather than a 90 degree cut. > > Also, during construction -- to support my weight, I could have temporary > frontal supports. > > Okay, for you engineers out there: Does this sound doable and reliable? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com > Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. > Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! > The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad > products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > -+-+-===-+-+- -+-+-+-+-=====-+-+-+-+- -+-+-===-+-+- | Edward F. Turner, Systems Engineer ed.turner@east.sun.com | + Sun Microsystems, Inc., Computer Systems Ph 770 360-6466 + | 3655 North Point Parkway, Alpharetta, GA 30005 Fax 770 360-6785 | -+-+-===-+-+- -+-+-+-+-=====-+-+-+-+- -+-+-===-+-+- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 17:59:03 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Plywood Benchwork Opinion Sought Jerry, While I am working with less length than your 23 ft long wall, I just built an upper level about 11 ft long which is to be considered visually separate from the level below. After worrying for a while over structural ideas that made me uncomfortable, I ran another 11 foot long set of L-girders for the upper level, supported near the ends. The length of the cross joists is about 30 inches maximum - the L girders about 16 inches apart As to your specific question of attaching support brackets directly to the exposed wall studs, neglecting any possible building code conflicts, is sounds structurally ideal to me. Just consider any problems if/when you move and want to sell... Jerry wrote: > ... Suppose that, before I drywall the room, I attack the "joists" of the > upper level > to the studs themselves. .......... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 16:46:07 -0500 From: Edward Long Subject: Re: [PRR] Remaining track at Richmond IN The Pennsy St Louis Line I always called it the Indianpolis main does not run past the State Hospital at Richmond and track is removed all the way to Thorne Jct East of Indy. I understand even the high fills at Cambridge City,Indiana are now gone. Also the Indy line and all local industries at Richmond for a time were served by a Conrail local out of Muncie and then Anderson,Indiana with trackage rights via the NS from Muncie. I think Conrail gave this up in 1991 ? ? And now all industry switching at Richmond is handled by NS. Also the C & O Of Indiana runs right up under the NS and ends and is in to Fernald,Ohio. But crossing the B &O Indy line at Cottage Grove,Indiana. Which is were they tie up on Friday and start on Monday. Ed Long ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:37:29 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [READING] Red Caboose X29's From: staffsgtyork@juno.com Hey all: Do you know how I can get a copy of the NEB&W book? Would love to do research with one. Have to find info on boxcars for Mississippi Central, Birmingham Southern, and Columbus & Greenville. SGT York ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 19:37:22 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Logansport From: caylorman@juno.com (E.J. Caylor) Quick question. What railroad lines and how much trackage makes up the Logansport & Eel River Railway? I see a station of theirs on the way to my girlfriends house in Souh Bend. Also, there looks like a renovated PRR station in downtown Logansport. Was this a freight station, or is there some other story? E.J. Caylor ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 19:58:13 EST Subject: [PRR] The Famous BM60 Folks, Since mention of the elusive BM60 has again been made, I'll repost the somewhat limited info from Wayner's Pennsy Car Plans. On page 6 of this 1969 publication is a drawing of this car, but surprisingly (maybe) no car numbers are shown. What is shown is a 15'-1" RPO section and a 44'-8' baggage section. 30" rpo door on each side and a 6'-0" baggage door centered ten feet off center of the car. 8ft wheelbase four wheel trucks on 44ft spacing.Mailcase is built against bulkhead that divides the car. No gold star status in this baggage section. Wt 105,500 ;capy baggage end 25,000 pounds. Any chance the Carstens Long Island book has a photo of this car, if it was indeed the type they used? Any chance this was used on a Pennsy secondary route somewhere? No date shown, but the B60-type cars were built way before the N&W purchase dates folks have mentioned on this list. I have to wonder if such a car was ever used on something like a PRSL run, or the BEL-Del or possibly one of the rather far-reaching Pittsburgh commuter runs, maybe back in the 20's or 30's? If anyone ever turns up a postal service contract for a 15 ft RPO, we may be on to something. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 20:06:50 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Remaining track at Richmond IN In a message dated 98-11-11 22:46:55 EST, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << short distance through Richmond between GLEN and NEWMAN. >> My last time through Richmond was on a NS steam excursion coming up from Cincinnati. When we came to what used to be Glen, I was shocked to see only a 4-track-wide expanse of grass east of the station. Fortunately I rode through there on Amtrak several times before Conrail got "down to business". Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 21:42:17 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR East and West In a message dated 98-11-12 18:58:41 EST, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << One of the things that makes me sad is that I never got to thank the late Jim Lynch for including western divisions in his Keystone articles on towers and >> Yes, we should all be glad that Jim consciously decided to work from west to east. I believe he was working on the PIttsburgh or Middle Divisions when he died. Hopefully somebody will finish the job. Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] Subject: Plywood Benchwork Opinion Sought Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 21:36:13 -0500 Hi Jerry! At the club I belong to, we are doing something very similar to what you are saying. The main difference is that we are cutting "L" shaped supports out of the 3/4" plywood, which will then be bolted (not screwed) to the wall studs. One leg of the "L" extends about 12" down the side of the stud, for added strength. The table depth is much less than you're talking though, only about 16". This is a fairly strong arrangement. Regards! Pat Lawless ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 21:34:48 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [READING] Red Caboose X29's/ NEB&W Book Sarge, By all means, if you can get NEB&W's "Guide to Steam Era Freight Car Modeling" do so. Be aware that there are two versions of this book: the first one runs about 400 pages and the later one about 650. Either is worth getting, but the second one (NGB-BOOK95.2) has obviously more material. List price is $49.95, but well worth it. There's also a painting guide update for $19.95, but most of it's material is in the main book. They also offer a book that covers all aspects of a railroads envirorment right down to what color paints were made when, auto production, street sign and mailbox colors, fashions, you nane it. I recently aquired yet another of their books, NEB&W Guide II- Prototype information for modellers, which covers car kits introduced since the big guide was published. Also included is a section on passenger cars (though the author, John Nehrich admiditly knows them less well than freight cars), buildings, industrial production, more painting, freight car loads, etc. All these books are readily available direct from Renssaeler railroad shop, except for the big 650 page freight car guide. They only printed about 300 copies, but they may have one still available. I originally got mine from Ron's books, but since he only discounts them 10%, I've got the other direct. I'll readily admit that I've learned more from the Steam Era Guide than I have from 30 years of magizine articles, and the book is endlessly facsinating. Example: ya want Miss. Central? In 1949 they owned 22 36 ft box cars and 100 40' box cars all PS-1's built in 1949, #5000-5099, 6 ft doors, 12-panel sides.Reporting marks had lines and no periods.Another odd ball fact that's good to fool you're modeling friends: the MDC 26 ft "old time" tank car is still usable in 1953, as is the old Ambroid "butterdish" tank car. The only common carrier having "pickel cars" at that time was the Soo. with four cars. And on and on for 650 pages. Check the RPI ads in MR, back with all the little ads by the classified. Give them a call direct (they list their phone). If they ran out, check Ron's books or the internet and I expect you'll turn up a copy. Only problem is, once you get your hands on it, no one will be able to find you for a few days while you dig into it. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 02:23:51 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR East,.... and, in other News.....And Great PRR PIC **Hi, Mike - Iam also a PRR-East person, and we had stuff going previously. The Lines West guys just did some great stuff, all interesting to us all. We will have a separate web-site cooking shortly, specializing in PRR NY Div, and L I R R, among other roads. so saty tuned, more to come. Some more Short Notes ( Eastern Stuff...) Washington Union Station = 90 yrs old, ten yrs restored in Sept... Capital Ltd ( former B&O) 75th anniversary... Sunnyside Yard now sports an "On Time Performance Clock; Starts Here"..... The recent Interlocking restructuring / cutover at ZOO Tower ( Philly) was: completed in 18 months completed on time.....as in a safe team...??? accomplished without any injuries and minimal delays to train service...unless you were on Septa or Njt those weekends..... I had the revised ZOO diagram scanned, and is on my site if anyone is interested. AND, for a trip back....http://members.aol.com/prrsignals/prrstluj.jpg ...as in when did you last see E units in DG/ 5 stripe..???..........Bill**** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 00:18:46 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Plywood Benchwork Opinion Sought Jerry, Having filled a 3000 sq. ft barn with plywood benchwork here is what I would recommend. If you want to have 48'' wide benchwork you should have a L bracket with a 48'' leg for wall mounting. The leg tied into the stud should be down compared to the benchwork. Use a hole saw to make the inside corner of the L a radius rather than a 90 degree angle it will be alot stronger and less prone to failure. I have a good bit of 4' wide upper level benchwork and it will hold me sitting on it without failure. Make sure you use 3/4'' BC exterior as it has 5 plys all set at 45 degrees to each other and is the stongest. By the way on a test before we started we found that a 3'' wide 4' long plywood L bracket is about twice as strong as a 4' long 1by4 with a plywood bracket, plywood is stronger than standard dimensional lumber of the same size . With your 4' width you'll need a front plate to tie into as well as a stiffener about 2' back. Don't skimp on drywall screws tieing into the studs. Use a good glue like Titebond and your joints will be stronger than the wood. Have fun, Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 22:10:59 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Logansport In a message dated 11/11/98 7:22:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: > > OK, kids, check this out: > > Go to http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Other/logansport.gif > > This is based on my last visit there. > > -- > Mark > Mark, Nice map-making, I like it. Rather than pick nits, I think I should fax you a 1941 PRR map of Logansport's center. That's the easiest way to refine the location and orientation of: - X Yard north of VAN - FERN, where the South Bend Branch leaves the Eel River line. - Yard B up against the Wabash I like your "area" view, which makes overall sense of the seven Panhandle routes coming in. BTW, I'm now counting NINE routes that fed into Logansport, but I'm including junctions at Frankfort (I&F joins Terre Haute line) and Converse (ancient Muncie line joins Columbus main). Fax number? Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Plywood Benchwork Opinion Sought Date: Fri, 13 Nov 98 09:27:17 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/13/98 8:58 AM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >BTW Jerry, HTH are you going to reach the back of a 40" deep deck? The >ABSOLUTE MAX that seems to come up in the LDSIG is 24-28". I mean, I've >met you and it didn't seem like it was 40" from you fingers to your arm pit! Yeah, but you should see me after I eats me spinach! (Actually, I hate spinach.) My room is only 9' wide. To have a decent radius, I must reserve 1' on one wall for return tracks. That, minus an aisle (of no less than) 3', leaves 5' usable. I "want" to do the Harrisburg train station. Ten passenger tracks plus two freight tracks times 2" each = 24". Add to that five 4"+/- wide station platforms adds another 20". Add the extra 2" for the front clearance and we're up to 46". The good news is that the entire area is flat, structures can be easily removed, and I "could" lay on the layout to work in the back. Suppose I could leave a 1' access on the back side of the layout. But that would really be a squeeze. If I reduce the aisle to 2.5', that would allow a 1.5' access from the back side, though it would require a tighter radius at the end of the room. RECAP: The room is 23' by 9'. Plus, off one end is a 9' by 8' extension. That's were I plan to have my helix and out-of-sight fiddle area (inside a reverted loop). See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/givens.html I'm open to suggestions. Suppose I could forgo the loco terminal and only do one level, but that would be a great loss. The passenger station will be the focal point, as all kinds of moves are made between trains and with the REA. Not to mention loco moves. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR East and West From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 98 09:00:38 -0500 In a message dated 11/12/98 1:36:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, pennsymike@worldnet.att.net writes: (in part) . . . BTW, does anybody on the Long Island know about the BM-60 that Pennsy built for LI and N&W, but apparently never used itself? What LI numbers did they run under? Was the RPO compartment 15 foot or 30 foot? How late were they used? Best wishes, Rick Tipton Salivating Pennsy Fan ======= I have a foto of a LIRR BM60. I believe I took it from the Jamaica platform many may years ago. I will see if it is good enough to see the number. regards Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR East and West From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 98 09:00:38 -0500 In a message dated 11/12/98 1:36:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, pennsymike@worldnet.att.net writes: (in part) . . . BTW, does anybody on the Long Island know about the BM-60 that Pennsy built for LI and N&W, but apparently never used itself? What LI numbers did they run under? Was the RPO compartment 15 foot or 30 foot? How late were they used? Best wishes, Rick Tipton Salivating Pennsy Fan ======= I have a foto of a LIRR BM60. I believe I took it from the Jamaica platform many may years ago. I will see if it is good enough to see the number. regards Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 07:58:14 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Plywood Benchwork Opinion Sought Jerry said: >> The problem is the upper level. It will be my passenger station, also >> about 4' deep. I don't want to suspend it from the ceiling, nor do I want >> to support it from the middle level, as both would cause 2-3 view blocks >> along the viewing aisle. It will be supported along the 23' back wall and >> both ends, just like the middle level. > Roger replied: This is the part that bothers me, Jerry, the 4 foot distance. > I am sure that you could use a sutble angled support back > in the back, but 4 feet is a looonnng way to expect anything > to hold up for very long without sags. I think that you > would do better with less distance.... say 30 inches or even 36 > inches. I second the motion...and here are a few other solutions from the Layout Design SIG of the NMRA (which BTW has an excellent chat list with the likes of Tony Koester and Andy Sperandeo on it). I would also like point out that, due to the laminations, plywood is in fact STRONGER than the same size dimensional lumber and far more STABLE. This is true even though 1/2 the laminations run the "wrong way" as the laminations provide additional strength. OK, now the solutions 1) Suspend it from the ceiling in only 1 or 2 locations, use wire, and don't put the wire at the front edge - it can be set back creating a cantilever. Hide the wire in a smoke stack 2) Angel your brackets as Roger suggests - I would go to at least 6" at the rear and preferable 8". Use a curve, and cove to the backdrop. With either #1 or #2, reinforce the front edge with a piece of angled steel bracket (this will still sag if unsupported) 3) Truss rods...This is my favorite - I've never seen it actually done, but this is how the railroads first solved the problem. Install a series of overlapping truss rods parallel to the front edge of the deck. These would support it end to end. Truss rods may also be used to support front to back and therefor use thinner joists. Deck construction also becomes very importatn and lighter is better! Faom, foam, foam... BTW Jerry, HTH are you going to reach the back of a 40" deep deck? The ABSOLUTE MAX that seems to come up in the LDSIG is 24-28". I mean, I've met you and it didn't seem like it was 40" from you fingers to your arm pit! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great literary works in Braille. ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:17:28 EST Subject: [PRR] Logansport, Muncie, and Richmond I wrote: BTW, I'm now counting NINE routes that fed into Logansport, In a message dated 11/12/98 10:44:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: > I stopped at 7, recognizing that ANOKA was already not really Logansport, > you know. > Frankfort and Converse are both a stretch, in my mind. No real argument here. I was just thinking about Logansport's strategic significance to the Panhandle. Everything seemed to funnel in here from all directions. Really don't understand whether LogansPORT :^) was originally such a traffic magnet because of being at the head of Wabash River navigation, or what. I can live with a 7-count . > Tell me about that ancient Muncie line. Why is it part of PRR? Wish I knew anything concrete. One thing I know for sure is that back when the gas fields at Muncie were new, it was an 800-pound gorilla for traffic. The glassmaking generated carloads of business for the LE&W (see Rehor's Nickel Plate book), and the Big Four and C&O of Indiana were the other through lines at Muncie. Whatever the draw, before 1941 this line was abandoned except for a stub at the Muncie end, going north to Matthews. This stub was accessed over Big Four trackage rights from the Richmond Branch at Anderson. Now even the stub is gone. > Also, about Richmond being switched by Conrail from Muncie? What gives? A matter of access. There's so little Conrail predecessor trackage left in the area, CR has to come down from the Bee Line (Big Four). They'd use retained trackage rights on the ex-PRR Richmond Branch all the way, but the NS has abandoned some Richmond Branch mileage at the Anderson end. So (I believe), NS had to grant them trackage rights on the ex-LE&W branch from Muncie to New Castle, so CR could exercise their ex-PRR trackage rights New Castle to Richmond. Byzantine, isn't it? Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Laird, Bill" Subject: RE: [PRR] Plywood Benchwork Opinion Sought Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:26:37 -0600 > Jerry said: > >> The problem is the upper level. It will be my passenger station, also > >> about 4' deep. I don't want to suspend it from the ceiling, nor do I > want > >> to support it from the middle level, as both would cause 2-3 view > blocks > >> along the viewing aisle. It will be supported along the 23' back wall > and > >> both ends, just like the middle level. > > > Roger replied: This is the part that bothers me, Jerry, the 4 foot > distance. > > I am sure that you could use a sutble angled support back > > in the back, but 4 feet is a looonnng way to expect anything > > to hold up for very long without sags. I think that you > > would do better with less distance.... say 30 inches or even 36 > > inches. > And Bruce said: > I second the motion...and here are a few other solutions from the Layout > Design SIG of the NMRA (which BTW has an excellent chat list with the likes Although Roger and Bruce make excellent points about the difficulty of reaching to the rear of a 4' deep second level, no one has mentioned that a second level 4' deep directly over a 4' deep first level will result in difficulty in viewing the first level, it will be like looking into a box! Jerry, if you can set back the second level somewhat (the more the better), you will showcase your first level much more. On the second level model only one half of the passenger station and tracks and put a mirror as a backdrop so it looks twice as big. Bill Laird Houston, Texas ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] Request for info on E&P Branch Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:10:21 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BE0EED.D2D401A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am currently writing a book on the Erie and Pittsburgh Railroad, = subsequently PRR's E&P Branch. Looking for pictures as follows: 1. PRR trains, stations and other facilities on E&P branch, including = Mahoningtown, PA (on the PY&A) and Erie, PA on both the E&P and P&E = (Philadelphia and Erie). 2. EL trains on their Sharon,PA (Ferrona Yard)) to New Castle, PA = branch. 3. P&LE trains on same EL branch, as they had trackage rights. 4. B&LE trains @ PRR/B&LE interchange Shenango, PA. 5. PRR's New Castle wreck train. Book is planned to be 20-25% text (of which 30% is already written) and = 80-75% pictures. Overall will be 150+ pages. Thanx for the assistance. Al ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BE0EED.D2D401A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am currently writing a book on the = Erie and=20 Pittsburgh Railroad, subsequently  PRR's E&P Branch. Looking = for=20 pictures as follows:
1. PRR trains, stations and other = facilities on=20 E&P branch, including Mahoningtown, PA (on the PY&A) and Erie, = PA on=20 both the E&P and P&E (Philadelphia and Erie).
2. EL trains on their Sharon,PA = (Ferrona Yard))=20 to New Castle, PA branch.
3. P&LE trains on same EL = branch, as they=20 had trackage rights.
4. B&LE trains @ PRR/B&LE = interchange=20 Shenango, PA.
5. PRR's New Castle wreck = train.
 
Book is planned to be 20-25% text = (of which 30%=20 is already written) and 80-75% pictures. Overall will be 150+=20 pages.
 
Thanx for the assistance.=20 Al
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BE0EED.D2D401A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] RE: Plywood Construction Date: Fri, 13 Nov 98 10:51:56 -0500 From: Jerry Appending my prior discussion about plywood framing, suspending a top level, etc. I quoted a room 9' wide. Actually, the wall that makes it 9' isn't built yet. But that was the extent of my negotiations with "my other half". If I could keep her out of the basement for a week or so, I suppose I could "err" in my measurements and make it 10'!!! With 10' to work with, I could have: 1.5' access from back, removable backdrops (good photo opps, too) 4.0' layout 3.0' aisle 1.0' return tracks 0.5' negotiable, use where needed The tightest radii on the return curve at the one end would be 24", but the inner two tracks would be freight only. Furthermore, the two passenger tracks wouldn't butt directly against the freight tracks on the one side of the curve, thus creating an even larger radii, probably exceeding 30"...acceptable, especially since the curve will be hidden. The new obstacle is that now there's a 4' by 23' multilevel layout only meeting the walls at its two ends. The lower level can be adequately supported from below. The upper level can be supported by legs on the backside, or from the ceiling, or both. Plywood "T" supports fastened to the studs are now out of the question. Steel rods and truss wires have been suggested. In any case, the "reach" access problem would be resolved under this scenario. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:06:55 -0500 (EST) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR East and West Lines West and East are great subjects for me too, but up here in the Western part of New York State the Pennsy was always a factor and to this day I can see trains running by PRR style signals on the Buffalo Line between Buffalo and Olean. Some folks do need to remember that the PRR extended NORTH of Renovo, would this be considered Lines North ;-) On Thu, 12 Nov 1998 RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/12/98 1:36:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, > pennsymike@worldnet.att.net writes: > > > Great to hear all the interest in the PRR out there, but how about some > news, > > info,etc for the area New Jersey and New York and the old "stepchild" the > > Long Island Railroad? Still see some old PRR freight cars running around > Long > > Island and in Oak Island yard in NJ. Hope to hear from anyone! > > > > Mike > > Long Island, NY > > > Mike, > > I like your turn of phrase, "all the interest in the PRR out there". As the > X-files keeps reminding us, "the truth is out there somewhere". > > I too would like to see more postings on Lines East, even though my personal > exposure to your end of the Pennsy pretty much stopped at Harrisburg. I did > once get to Jersey City for one of those notorious harbor tours where the NRHS > hijacks a Circle Line boat and spends the day touring rail-marine facilities. > It was outrageous -- we got as far upriver (Passaic or ?,) at DOCK at Newark > Penn Station. > > I apologize to you and all the Lines East folks for the wave of "cornfield > Pennsy" that you are currently enduring. Please bear with us. Remember, in > the East 30 years ago there were enough fan/historians to constitute a > critical mass for gathering and conserving information on the PRR. Sheer > concentrated numbers insured this worked by word of mouth, slide show, mag > articles, books (lots of books), the PRRT&HS, and the Chapters. > > Meanwhile, Lines West, with equal or greater mileage, and its own unique > historical peccadillos, has fans, but we're really spread out. For example, > if I want to talk to another active PRRT&HS member, I drive 120 miles to > Cincinnati or 120 miles to Indianapolis. > > Email and PRR-Talk has made all the difference to connect up Pennsy fans > beyond Pittsburgh. It is enabling us to pick each other's brains, and > conserve the knowledge of folks who were on parts of the railroad long before > we saw them. Please bear with us, because we're bound to slow down. > > One of the things that makes me sad is that I never got to thank the late Jim > Lynch for including western divisions in his Keystone articles on towers and > facilities. An awareness that this kind of info must be preserved and > documented encouraged me to read timetables and take physical plant photos, > even when no train was in sight. > > So let's have more Pennsy, period! BTW, does anybody on the Long Island know > about the BM-60 that Pennsy built for LI and N&W, but apparently never used > itself? What LI numbers did they run under? Was the RPO compartment 15 foot > or 30 foot? How late were they used? > > Best wishes, > Rick Tipton > Salivating Pennsy Fan > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad > products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > William J. Enser Co-Net Admin - Tech Supp & Validations alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System x2 & K56flex/V.90 Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Plywood Benchwork Opinion Sought Date: Fri, 13 Nov 98 12:04:59 -0500 From: Jerry On 11/13/98 6:47 AM, Roger P. Hensley (rhensley@ecicnet.org) wrote: > I like the idea Jerry. I just looked at your page and the > sketch. I think that what you want is doable, but I'm not > sure that you have hit the answer yet. :-) Thanks. > > Consider moving things around. Does it have to be where you > are planning? Can it be on the other level? Is this the best use > of space and track? The two levels could be swapped. However, the lower level will only have the benefit of the 4' by 23' table with the 1' wide return. The upper level will have the same, plus the area over the helix. My thought was to place the passenger station on the upper level so the REA and freight facilities south/east of the station would extend over the helix (after making a non-prototypical 90-degree turn). > > I presume that you have made drawings or sketches? If not, > do it. If you don't want to use the computer, then get some > graph paper and pencils. Draw it out and then move the pieces > and parts around to see if they'd work elsewhere. You wanna > put the passenger station on top of the helix? I have a scale map of the passenger station. I figured out the conversion factors and, surprisingly, the full station area (not inclusive of REA or beyond HARRIS) fits into about 25'. That's only 2' longer than I have. Surely I can fudge! May involve some custom turnouts, etc., but should be doable. As for the loco facility: Need to use 90' turntable and roundhouse to keep the table down to 4' wide. As for length, the prototype had a very long arrive/depart yard. If I need to scale things down, this is the place to shorten. Craig Bowman (on this list) has scale plans for the loco facility that I plan to scan. The neat thing about these plans is that I can use PhotoShop to create an object the length of my modeling area and move it around the scanned plans and see what will fit and what won't. For instance, my 23' available space translates to 2001' in HO. The plans are 200' to the inch. Do the math and I can include what fits on 10" of the plan. Works for me! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 11:47:58 +0000 From: "Roger P. Hensley" Subject: Re: [PRR] Plywood Benchwork Opinion Sought > Subject: Re: [PRR] Plywood Benchwork Opinion Sought > Date: Fri, 13 Nov 98 09:27:17 -0500 > From: Jerry > To: "PRR-Talk" > I "want" to do the Harrisburg train station. Ten passenger tracks plus > two freight tracks times 2" each = 24". Add to that five 4"+/- wide > station platforms adds another 20". Add the extra 2" for the front > clearance and we're up to 46". *** set out *** > I'm open to suggestions. Suppose I could forgo the loco terminal and only > do one level, but that would be a great loss. The passenger station will > be the focal point, as all kinds of moves are made between trains and > with the REA. Not to mention loco moves. I like the idea Jerry. I just looked at your page and the sketch. I think that what you want is doable, but I'm not sure that you have hit the answer yet. :-) As an aside, a friend of mine did a large passenger terminal in HO complete with necessary switching, REA and a large nearby freight yards. Very impressive even with selective compression! The layout is gone now, but the memory of the passenger operation lingers on. Consider moving things around. Does it have to be where you are planning? Can it be on the other level? Is this the best use of space and track? I presume that you have made drawings or sketches? If not, do it. If you don't want to use the computer, then get some graph paper and pencils. Draw it out and then move the pieces and parts around to see if they'd work elsewhere. You wanna put the passenger station on top of the helix? Just some thoughts. Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org == http://cid.railfan.net ====================================== == Central Indiana Division, Midwest Region, NMRA ============== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:39:10 +0000 From: "Roger P. Hensley" Subject: RE: [PRR] Plywood Benchwork Opinion Sought > From: "Laird, Bill" > To: "'PRR-Talk@dsop.com'" > Subject: RE: [PRR] Plywood Benchwork Opinion Sought > Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:26:37 -0600 > Although Roger and Bruce make excellent points about the difficulty > of reaching to the rear of a 4' deep second level, no one has mentioned that > a second level 4' deep directly over a 4' deep first level will result in > difficulty in viewing the first level, it will be like looking into a box! > Jerry, if you can set back the second level somewhat (the more the better), > you will showcase your first level much more. On the second level model > only one half of the passenger station and tracks and put a mirror as a > backdrop so it looks twice as big. > > Bill Laird Mirrors can work well as long as you don't see yourself in them. I use one on my HO railroad. :-) Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org == http://cid.railfan.net ====================================== == Central Indiana Division, Midwest Region, NMRA ============== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 23:16:59 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] The Famous BM60 --------------B441805CFC82E11913336083 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy All: According to The Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment (January 1952) The PRR had 6 cars that would almost meet the drawing specifications as outlined by Barry below. The Register does not list the PRR car type only the AAR mechanical designation. AAR type MBe (Baggage, Mail, electric lights) Car Numbers - 5403, 5406, 5407, 5412. Baggage section 43 feet, Mail section 15 feet, inside 61, over buffers 64.6. Also listed are the 5438 and 5439 with the same specs. The 1953 Register, still has the 5403, 5407, 5412 & 5439 listed. They are not listed in the 1954 Register. The Norfolk and Western lists car numbers 10 to 18 with the following specs. Baggage 45 ft, Mail 15 ft, Inside 60.1ft and over buffers 64.5 ft. These cars are listed in the '52 to '55 editions. 10 to 12 are listed to '56. 10 and 11 make it to 1960 - they are gone by 1964. The 1940 Car Builders Cyclopedia has a picture of number 16 on page 666. The cars where built by the Bethlehem Steel Company with a weight of 104,400. I found no other listing (1952 to 1969) for a 15 foot mail car under N&W. The Long Island Railroad has 2 cars ( numbers 737 and 738)listed in 1952 with 45 ft baggage section and a 15 foot mail section, inside length is 59.9 ft outside is listed at 63.7 ft. These cars are listed through 56. The 737 continues till the '60 issue. It isn't listed in '64 (my next Register ). In 1956, a 717 is listed with a 60 inside length - and an electric generator. This car is not listed in 1960. Starting in the 1960 Register is car number 7738. This car is originally listed as a baggage express car. It is joined by car number 7737 in 1964 - this car is listed as a mail baggage with a mail section of 15' and a baggage section of 43 feet, overall length is 63' 7". By '66 the 7737 is gone and the 7738 is now a MB classification and the only mail car left. It is still there in my last issue - 1969. Sorry I don't have that much on the Long Island - so I don't have a picture reference. The Register listed the PRR cars (5403, 5406, 5407, 5412 ) as steel cars. However, In "The Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad" (Wayner Publications - no date or copyright notice - page 2 has a picture of 5403. It looks to me to be a wooden combine, complete with 6 wheel trucks and truss rods. The PRR listed one other class with a 15 foot mail section and a 43 foot baggage section overall length of 64' 6", AAR designation ETe or Electric Trailer - PRR numbers 5416 to 5419. These cars make it to the 1964 edition. A picture of 5416 is on page 229 of Paul Carleton's "Under Pennsy Wires". There is also one mixed in with other MP sorts on page 228. Sorry but this car looks very much like its MP54 sisters. The next car up would be a MBe with a 56 foot baggage section and a 15 foot mail section. Overall length on this car is 74'10" making it a BM70 something. Given the above information: did the PRR ever have a steel BM60 with a 15 foot mail section? are the electric cars going to be the BM60's? is the Long Island #7738 the missing link? picture proof? is three fun hours of research enough - for tonight maybe? cos BPX29@aol.com wrote: > Folks, > Since mention of the elusive BM60 has again been made, I'll repost the > somewhat limited info from Wayner's Pennsy Car Plans. On page 6 of this 1969 > publication is a drawing of this car, but surprisingly (maybe) no car numbers > are shown. What is shown is a 15'-1" RPO section and a 44'-8' baggage section. > 30" rpo door on each side and a 6'-0" baggage door centered ten feet off > center of the car. 8ft wheelbase four wheel trucks on 44ft spacing.Mailcase is > built against bulkhead that divides the car. No gold star status in this > baggage section. Wt 105,500 ;capy baggage end 25,000 pounds. Any chance the > Carstens Long Island book has a photo of this car, if it was indeed the type > they used? Any chance this was used on a Pennsy secondary route somewhere? No > date shown, but the B60-type cars were built way before the N&W purchase dates > folks have mentioned on this list. I have to wonder if such a car was ever > used on something like a PRSL run, or the BEL-Del or possibly one of the > rather far-reaching Pittsburgh commuter runs, maybe back in the 20's or 30's? > If anyone ever turns up a postal service contract for a 15 ft RPO, we may be > on to something. > Regards, > Barry Peltier > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad > products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --------------B441805CFC82E11913336083 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy All:
According to The Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment  (January 1952)
The PRR had 6 cars that would  almost meet the drawing specifications as outlined by Barry below.   The Register does not list the PRR car type only the AAR mechanical designation.

AAR type MBe (Baggage, Mail, electric lights) Car Numbers - 5403, 5406, 5407, 5412.  Baggage section 43 feet, Mail section 15 feet, inside 61, over buffers 64.6.
Also listed are the 5438 and 5439 with the same specs.
The 1953 Register, still has the 5403, 5407, 5412 & 5439 listed.
They are not listed in the 1954 Register.

The Norfolk and Western lists car numbers 10 to 18 with the following specs.
Baggage 45 ft, Mail 15 ft, Inside 60.1ft and over buffers 64.5 ft. These cars are listed in the '52  to  '55 editions.  10 to 12 are listed to '56.  10 and 11 make it to 1960 - they are gone by 1964.  The 1940 Car Builders Cyclopedia has a picture of number 16 on page 666.  The cars where built by the Bethlehem Steel Company with a weight of 104,400.  I found no other listing (1952 to 1969) for a 15 foot mail car under N&W.

The Long Island Railroad has 2 cars ( numbers 737 and 738)listed in 1952 with 45 ft baggage section and a 15 foot mail section, inside length is 59.9 ft outside is listed at 63.7 ft.  These cars are listed through 56. The 737 continues till the '60 issue.  It isn't listed in '64 (my next Register ).  In 1956, a 717 is listed with a 60 inside length - and an electric generator.  This car is not listed in 1960.  Starting in the 1960 Register is car number 7738.  This car is originally listed as a baggage express car.  It is joined by car number 7737 in 1964 - this car is listed as a mail baggage with a mail section of 15' and a baggage section of 43 feet, overall length is 63' 7".
By '66 the 7737 is gone and the 7738 is now a MB classification and the only mail car left.  It is still there in my last issue - 1969.  Sorry I don't have that much on the Long Island - so I don't have a picture reference.

The Register listed the PRR cars (5403, 5406, 5407, 5412 ) as steel cars.  However, In "The Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad" (Wayner Publications - no date or copyright notice - page 2 has a picture of 5403.  It looks to me to be a wooden combine, complete with 6 wheel trucks and truss rods.  The PRR listed one other class with a 15 foot mail section and a 43 foot baggage section overall length of 64' 6", AAR designation ETe or Electric Trailer - PRR numbers 5416 to 5419.  These cars make it to the 1964 edition.   A picture of 5416 is on page 229 of Paul Carleton's "Under Pennsy Wires".   There is also one mixed in with other MP sorts on page 228.  Sorry but this car looks very much like its MP54 sisters.
The next car up would be a MBe with a 56 foot baggage section and a 15 foot mail section.  Overall length on this car is 74'10" making it a BM70 something.

Given the above information:
    did the PRR ever have a steel BM60 with a 15 foot mail section?
    are the electric cars going to be the BM60's?
    is the Long Island #7738 the missing link? picture proof?
    is three fun hours of research enough - for tonight maybe?

cos
 

BPX29@aol.com wrote:

Folks,
Since mention of the elusive BM60 has again been made, I'll repost the
somewhat limited info from Wayner's Pennsy Car Plans. On page 6 of this 1969
publication is a drawing of this car, but surprisingly (maybe) no car numbers
are shown. What is shown is a 15'-1" RPO section and a 44'-8' baggage section.
30" rpo door on each side and a 6'-0" baggage door centered ten feet off
center of the car. 8ft wheelbase four wheel trucks on 44ft spacing.Mailcase is
built against bulkhead that divides the car. No gold star status in this
baggage section. Wt 105,500 ;capy baggage end 25,000 pounds.  Any chance the
Carstens Long Island book has a photo of this car, if it was indeed the type
they used? Any chance this was used on a Pennsy secondary route somewhere? No
date shown, but the B60-type cars were built way before the N&W purchase dates
folks have mentioned on this list. I have to wonder if such a car was ever
used on something like a PRSL run, or the BEL-Del or possibly one of the
rather far-reaching Pittsburgh commuter runs, maybe back in the 20's or 30's?
If anyone ever turns up a postal service contract for a 15 ft RPO, we may be
on to something.
Regards,
Barry Peltier

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  --------------B441805CFC82E11913336083-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 18:40:21 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Another I-1 question From: padraice@juno.com (Patrick M Egan) This isn't much help, but once upon a time you could get parts from PFM. Maybe you still can - write to them to find out. They would sell extra parts, and yes, the I1 valve gear hanger was one of them. I don't think any of the current crop of importers do it, although there is certainly is a market for things like that. Yes, I have one, and it's one less than I need, so if you talk somebody into making copies of yours, let me know. Pat Egan (no web access) On Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:18:20 -0600 (CST) "Donald E. Harper, Jr." writes: >On all the I-1 engine photos I've seen, except the photo of the first >I-1 in the >Cyclopedia, the the bracket on which the reverse link is mounted is >almost >semi-circular. No other class of engine seems to have had that style. > Anyone >know why only the I-1? > >I did not like the Bowser mechanism as purchased - it looks like the >Cyclopedia >photo mentioned above - so I've spent a lot of time making >measurements and a >pattern, and finally have produced a bracket that looks about right. >Then I got >to wondering -- do any of the commercial outfits make such a bracket >integrated >into the boiler support that could replace Bowser's part? > >Don Harper >Texas A&M Marine Lab >5007 Avenue U >Galveston, TX 77551-5926 >409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 >harperd@tamug.tamu.edu > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad >products, specializing in the PRR. See >http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 01:58:30 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] railroaders on Amtrak Ok...this is a little off topic...but i thought some of you would like to know. I mentioned the other night that my dad had said that the railroaders that Amtrak uses were unsafe....I did know how much.... He told me tonight that these cars (trailers) have NO hand brakes. So that means that if one of them has to be cut out of a train...and lets say that the air leaks off of the car....there will be no brakes on it. Couple that with the fact that some of the newer guys working the NEC don't have enough training for them....well put another way.... How do YOU spell accident? Til Later Hank M. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] Mind your inputs and outputs Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 02:38:36 -0500 (EST) I've worked on a graphical schedule for Logansport, just for starters. I am planning on ultimately similarly graphing out other cities/yards. Enjoy. The graph is at http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Frtsched/logansport_schedule.gif -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 08:28:39 -0500 From: DDembinski Subject: Re: [PRR] railroaders on Amtrak I always thought that the air was applied to RELEASE the brakes. The hand brakes could be used to manually release/apply the brakes and move a car even if it wasn't attached to a source of air (like an engine). However, I could be wrong about this. Dale bubbles@visi.net wrote: > Ok...this is a little off topic...but i thought some of you would like to > know. I mentioned the other night that my dad had said that the railroaders > that Amtrak uses were unsafe....I did know how much.... > He told me tonight that these cars (trailers) have NO hand brakes. > So that means that if one of them has to be cut out of a train...and > lets say that the air leaks off of the car....there will be no brakes > on it. Couple that with the fact that some of the newer guys working the > NEC don't have enough training for them....well put another way.... > How do YOU spell accident? > > Til Later > Hank M. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad > products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:33:20 EST Subject: [PRR] 1999 PRRT&HS CONVENTION Folks, Does anyone recall offhand what the dates of next year's convention are going to be?I seem to recall that the dates have been changed from the normal May 1st to late August. The location it seems is going to be Altoona. One of my complaints has always been that May date (can't do much with the kids while school's still going), and the fact that nearly all the sites are on the east end of the Pennsy map.(sorry, guess that's two complaints). I know that once in a while a convention is set west of Pittsburgh, but not very often. Another gripe is that the convention hotel is usually sold out to certain folks before the rest of us find out what hotel they're using.(Recall Pittsburgh a couple years ago?). This might not be so serious if you're driving, but if you take Amtrak this can be a major pain. At Pittsburgh the hotels were quite a distance apart. I'm halfway thinking of having the family visit the inlaws in Sandusky and taking Amtrak's new "day" train from there to the convention in Altoona, but I better get a few things lined up. But maybe for once Amtrak has done something in my favor, even if the museam is taking a beating. Talk to ya's later folks, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Another I-1 question Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 10:22:51 -0500 In regards to PFM brass parts, I believe that Bowser has acquired the rights to custom parts made for the various importers. I believe that their catalog features several pages of custom brass parts. Hope this helps. Dennis mailto:dennis@onerrave.com http://www.onerrave.com Over 7000 in stock items & the Railroad Telegraph -----Original Message----- From: Patrick M Egan To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Saturday, November 14, 1998 3:25 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Another I-1 question >This isn't much help, but once upon a time you could get parts from PFM. >Maybe you still can - write to them to find out. They would sell extra >parts, and yes, the I1 valve gear hanger was one of them. I don't think >any of the current crop of importers do it, although there is certainly >is a market for things like that. > >Yes, I have one, and it's one less than I need, so if you talk somebody >into making copies of yours, let me know. >Pat Egan >(no web access) > >On Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:18:20 -0600 (CST) "Donald E. Harper, Jr." > writes: >>On all the I-1 engine photos I've seen, except the photo of the first >>I-1 in the >>Cyclopedia, the the bracket on which the reverse link is mounted is >>almost >>semi-circular. No other class of engine seems to have had that style. >> Anyone >>know why only the I-1? >> >>I did not like the Bowser mechanism as purchased - it looks like the >>Cyclopedia >>photo mentioned above - so I've spent a lot of time making >>measurements and a >>pattern, and finally have produced a bracket that looks about right. >>Then I got >>to wondering -- do any of the commercial outfits make such a bracket >>integrated >>into the boiler support that could replace Bowser's part? >> >>Don Harper >>Texas A&M Marine Lab >>5007 Avenue U >>Galveston, TX 77551-5926 >>409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 >>harperd@tamug.tamu.edu >> >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad >>products, specializing in the PRR. See >>http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >>"listmaster@dsop.com". >> >> > >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad >products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:40:47 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] 1999 PRRT&HS CONVENTION ***Hi, Barry & list...I have August 26-27-28 circled ( circle Keystone ??) on my calendar. Friday afternoon should be my afternoon PRRSignals Show & Tell....Bill** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak restrictions, was Altoona Museum Gets The Shaft From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 13:44:31 EST The below is not true. No such restriction is in the current Northeast TT and I frequently use a midday Amtrak run from NYP to Stamford to visit a client.[Rather than go crosstown to GCT for Metro North.] Amtk's computer just quoted me $11.00 for Stamford=>Bridgeport; $22.00 for NYP=>Stamford and for $23.00 NYP=>Bridgeport. Before Amtrak consolidated at NYP there was an agreement not to haul locals into GCT but this does not apply to NYP. There is an agreement not to haul locals between Yonkers, Poughkeepsie and Croton Harmon on Empire service trains however they may haul between these stations and NYP. MEA ______________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com Management Services Telephone 609-683-0356 On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:33:35 -0800 John Cooper writes: >I beleive they do. > >What you cannot do, however, is ride only between New Haven and New >York on >Amtrak. As part of trackage rights over the Metro North Commuter >Railroad >(New Rochelle to New Haven), Amtrak agreed not compete for customers. >So if >you really want to travel Amtrak between New York, Stamford, >Bridgeport, or >New Haven, you must buy a ticket one station outside of that range, >either >to Newark or Old Saybrook CT. > >John > >> ---------- >> Jerry wrote: >> >> > ...... Does "The Pennsylvanian" allow short trip boarding at >Altoona >> > (Altoona-Johnstown)? I know the PRR often did not allow short >trips on >> their >> > "Blue Ribbon" trains, but I bet Amtrak wants all the riders they >can >> > get............... >> >> >> >> >> >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad >> products, specializing in the PRR. See >http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Join our SPF database at >http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". >> > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad >products, specializing in the PRR. See >http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 15:22:23 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] railroaders on Amtrak In a message dated 11/14/98 8:41:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, DDembinski@Centuryinter.net writes: << I always thought that the air was applied to RELEASE the brakes.>> after bubbles@visi.net wrote: about Amtrak Railroaders: > He told me tonight that these cars (trailers) have NO hand brakes. > So that means that if one of them has to be cut out of a train...and > lets say that the air leaks off of the car....there will be no brakes > on it. It depends where the air leaks from. Air leaking from the airline would reduce the pressure there, and the valve would open allowing air to flow from the air tank to the cylinder, thus setting the brakes. On the other hand, if the _air tank_ had the leak, there would be no force to apply the brakes. John Keel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS MONTH'S SPONSOR: "Merchandise Service" offers model railroad products, specializing in the PRR. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 15:22:53 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] 1999 PRRT&HS CONVENTION From: locoshop@juno.com Yes, this year's convention is the last weekend of August and it is in Altoona. The other items I do not know about. I agree that the early may date is a bummer because the kids are still in school, but so is the late August date. Out here kids start school late August and end mid to late May depending on how many snow days they have had that year, so neither works for myself in Omaha, Nebraska, unfortunately because I would love to come to the Altoona convention (grew up in Bedford, PA so it is close to the old home area). On Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:33:20 EST BPX29@aol.com writes: >Folks, >Does anyone recall offhand what the dates of next year's convention >are going >to be?I seem to recall that the dates have been changed from the >normal May >1st to late August. The location it seems is going to be Altoona. >One of my complaints has always been that May date (can't do much with >the >kids while school's still going), and the fact that nearly all the >sites are >on the east end of the Pennsy map.(sorry, guess that's two >complaints). I know >that once in a while a convention is set west of Pittsburgh, but not >very >often. Another gripe is that the convention hotel is usually sold out >to >certain folks before the rest of us find out what hotel they're >using.(Recall >Pittsburgh a couple years ago?). This might not be so serious if >you're >driving, but if you take Amtrak this can be a major pain. At >Pittsburgh the >hotels were quite a distance apart. I'm halfway thinking of having the >