Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 00:53:56 -0400 From: shazada@mis.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 1000 PRR F3A's Edward Turner - Atlanta - SSE wrote: > > Greetings, > > I just picked up the two new Proto 1000 PRR F3A Locomotives. I thought I would > share my thoughts on this new line from LifeLike Products, in case anyone is > contemplating adding them to their collection. > Ed, Did they get the windshield shape right or are they square like the Athearn F7? What about nose contour? Thanks for sharing your thoughts. -D -- David Mikulec DT&I Modelers Page http://DTI.Railfan.net The Nostalgia Trip Homepage http://www.users.mis.net/~shazada/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 00:25:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Edward Turner - Atlanta - SSE Subject: [PRR] Proto 1000 PRR F3A's Greetings, I just picked up the two new Proto 1000 PRR F3A Locomotives. I thought I would share my thoughts on this new line from LifeLike Products, in case anyone is contemplating adding them to their collection. Product Information: LifeLike Products 8172 PROTO 1000 F3A PRR #9502 (PRR Class EF15 - Delivererd 1947) DGLE - Single Stripe LifeLike Products 8173 PROTO 1000 F3A PRR #9508 (PRR Class EF15 - Delivererd 1948) DGLE - Single Stripe Features include: Proto2000 magnetic knuckle couplers, constant and drectional lighting, dual mached brass flywheels, Balanced 5 pole skew wound armature, Heavy die cast chassis, RP25 contour blackened metal wheels, 8 wheel drive, 8 wheel pickup. Suggested Retail is $50.00. I am sure discounts vary. My local hobby shop is selling them for $29.95. Walthers listed the item last week as "in stock". They currently list them as NOT in stock with an Unknown for expected delivery. "Pennsy Diesel Years" vol 5 lists these two road number Locomotives as being based in Renova, PA in 1960. Ed's Amature Product Review: The model comes fully assembled, shell already mounted, ready-to-run. Paint Color - The DGLE shade is very close to black. The color is noticeably blacker when compared to a Proto2000 DGLE E7 model. The shade is not as black as the Proto2000 GP9 shade. When put side by side w/ the GP9, a hint of Green is noticeable. Lettering/Striping - the single stripe and road numbers are very crisp. Running - In my brief tests, it runs every bit as well as my Proto2000 GP9's. Smooth and quite, through a range of speeds. Detailing - Of course they had to cut corners somewhere. There is NO external grab rail detailing like on the Proto 2000 E7A. The grab rails are there - they are just molded as part of the body - so not very prototypical. The windshield detail is similar to Proto2000. There is no interior cab detailing. The Chicken-wire detailing on the cab side is surprisingly very good. It is accurately an early model F3 w/ chicken wire down between the two portholes. The detailing clearly shows the cab support struts behind the chicken wire. The portholes are covered w/ the same clear plastic used on the windshield. The roof mounted fans are not shrouded and are not see-through like on the Proto2000 GP9's. The trucks are nicely detailed. The air horns on the roof are accurately and nicely done. The rear of the cab, to include the rear door, leave a bit to be desired. Reviewing photos I have of F3's - it sure looks like they got all the details right, just not as crisp as on their Proto2000 line. Overall, the detailing does not compare w/ a Proto2000, but for the money, I would rate it very good. I am happy I have added these models to my collection. I hope this information has been useful. Regards, Ed -+-+-===-+-+- -+-+-+-+-=====-+-+-+-+- -+-+-===-+-+- | Edward F. Turner, System Support Engineer ed.turner@east.sun.com | + Sun Microsystems, Inc., Enterprise Services Ph 770 360-6466 + | 3655 North Point Parkway, Alpharetta, GA 30005 Fax 770 360-6460 | -+-+-===-+-+- -+-+-+-+-=====-+-+-+-+- -+-+-===-+-+- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] SALE: October Specials from "Merchandise Service" Date: Wed, 30 Sep 98 11:23:43 -0400 From: Jerry The October special from "Merchandise Service" is Athearn. All Athearn rolling stock and locomotives (including mechanisms) are 20% off. The Westerfield special continues thru December: 3 kits for $45 on selected items! For product and ordering information, see http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/ Remember, all proceeds benefit operation of the lists and web sites at PENNSYRR.COM and DSOP.COM...thank you for your support. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 1000 PRR F3A's Date: Thu, 1 Oct 98 05:14:39 -0400 From: Jerry On 10/1/98 12:25 AM, Edward Turner - Atlanta - SSE (Ed.Turner@East.Sun.COM) wrote: >Detailing - Of course they had to cut corners somewhere. There is NO >external >grab rail detailing like on the Proto 2000 E7A. The grab rails are there >- they >are just molded as part of the body - so not very prototypical. The >windshield >detail is similar to Proto2000. There is no interior cab detailing. The >Chicken-wire detailing on the cab side is surprisingly very good. It is >accurately an early model F3 w/ chicken wire down between the two >portholes. >The detailing clearly shows the cab support struts behind the chicken >wire. The >portholes are covered w/ the same clear plastic used on the windshield. The >roof mounted fans are not shrouded and are not see-through like on the >Proto2000 >GP9's. The trucks are nicely detailed. The air horns on the roof are >accurately and nicely done. The rear of the cab, to include the rear door, >leave a bit to be desired. Reviewing photos I have of F3's - it sure >looks like >they got all the details right, just not as crisp as on their Proto2000 >line. >Overall, the detailing does not compare w/ a Proto2000, but for the money, I >would rate it very good. Some good observations. I looked at these at Mainline Hobby and -- through the box window -- was not impressed...though I've been spoiled by P2K. Looks comparable (detail wise, not operation wise) to a Walthers Trainline or an Athearn, though perhaps better than the latter. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 01:38:44 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: [PRR] WCCCo. Dry Transfers Hi All, Checked the Clover House catalog and found no WCCCo. transfers. Did find a #289 in the C-D-S dry transfer catalog for the GLa. I believe it's HO though not sure as most of my ref. materials are N. Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Terry Link" Subject: Re: [PRR] WCCCo. Dry Transfers Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 07:22:54 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: Ron Dugas > >Checked the Clover House catalog and found no WCCCo. transfers. Did find >a #289 in the C-D-S dry transfer catalog for the GLa. I believe it's HO >though not sure as most of my ref. materials are N. > Nearly all CDS dry transfers are available in N,HO,S & O, though they may not be available at all times. If anyone requires any - contact me off list. Some are also available in G scale as well. Terry Link Bramalea, Ontario TRLINK@netcom.ca ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 08:05:39 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] WCCo. Decals >Hi All, > >Checked the Clover House catalog and found no WCCCo. transfers. Did find >a #289 in the C-D-S dry transfer catalog for the GLa. I believe it's HO >though not sure as most of my ref. materials are N. Hi All, FWIW, from the Westerfield catalog (n.b. decals ARE available seperately!): ********************* 2305 GL HOPPER ORIG., WESTMORELAND ERAS: 00s 10s MODELS: GL as built for Westmoreland Coal 1902 and as run into the 'teens. ROADS: WCCO WESTMORELAND The GL class was a 33` version of the PSC hopper first built for PB&LE in 1897. This first all-steel design was delivered to PRR, its subsidiaries and mines PRR serviced between 1898 and 1904, totaling over 20,000 cars. Our kits feature one-piece hopper interiors for easier assembly. Westmoreland received about 200 GL's in 1902. It picked up an additional 200 upon the purchase of Penn Gas Coal Co. in 1905. The company also owned GLA class cars. The GL's were maintained by PRR and improved per the railroad's cars. They were sold to PRR in 1935 or '36. Decal 2305 - Price B ********************* Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great literary works in Braille. ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 09:00:16 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 1000 PRR F3A's In a message dated 10/1/98 5:40:40 AM Central Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << Looks comparable (detail wise, not operation wise) to a Walthers Trainline or an Athearn, though perhaps better than the latter. >> Didn't check nose contour or window shape,but I thought screening detail was superior to anything Walthers or Athearn would do for an F3 prior to now (Athearn's purchase of Highliner tooling makes the future possibilities a lot different) , and I wish my Stewart had as good a striping and lettering job. No separate details like a P2K but not in the same price range, either. I would be interested in the performance--isn't it the same mechanism? If so, then I consider it a bargain,but then I am an operations nut and my bifocals don't focus down to separate grabirons in a dimly lit train room, even though I occasionally add them myself just because "I know they are there". BTW, I saw mine at Termnal Hobby Shop at Walthers, not to be confused with their distributorship . Once it has moved to THS shelves, it is off Walthers online inventory list. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 08:53:08 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: [PRR] Hoss's Dinner: Last Update Greetings to the groups, Sorry about getting this out so late in the week. According to the info I have collected (Again, thanks Carl.) the following have indicated that they will be at hoss's at 7PM Saturday for dinner. I'll provide directions to Hoss's in a separate post. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA Jerry Breon Roy Breon Dan Cupper (unless tied up with museum stuff) Dennis Sautters Drew McGhee Carl Haslett Karen Haslett Thomas Haslett Patricia Haslett Erik Seidelmann Norm Seidelmann Harold McGee Robert Strain David Gnuse Jerry Britton Ashley Britton Rich Ader Jennie Ader Rob Schoenberg Paul Tupaczewski Derrick J Brashear and quest(s) Neal Campbell Mike Wingard David Wingard ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose Date: Thu, 1 Oct 98 08:51:05 -0400 From: Jerry Anyone have a web URL or e-mail address for Red Caboose? I checked the MRIA (Model Railroad Industry Association) site, but their search engine is down. (I have notified their webmaster.) REDCABOOSE.COM is a craft shop (totally unrelated). ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 10:10:45 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] ...more 1904... Bill, A great brain teaser. This is all I can do from memory; will have to look up the rest. BTW, it's interesting that this list contains no CL&N Cincinnati Lebanon & Northern (PRR LW) - probably too small VRR Vandalia RR (cars probably marked PCC&StL/PH by then) NOR Cincinnati Northern (an NYC Lines company still very much alive around 1904) In a message dated 9/30/98 12:17:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRRSignals@aol.com writes: > ***Since you Lines West folks did so great on old road identification, here > are some more: > > The ones that seem obvious, some lasted into 1960's or later, some are parts > of / became under PRR, NYC, etc.: > N & W Norfolk & Western P W & B Philadelphia, Wilmington & Baltimore (a PRR Lines East affiliate) T W V & O Toledo Walhonding Valley & Ohio (PRR Lines West) C A & C Cleveland, Akron & Columbus/Cleveland Akron & Cincinnati (PRR Lines West) C & O Chesapeake & Ohio L & N Louisville & Nashville (sing chorus of "Dixie") N C R Northern Central (a PRR) G T Grand Trunk (the New England one) Heinz Co. H.J.Heinz, Pittsburgh PA A A Ann Arbor M C Michigan Central (New York Central Lines) C B & Q Chicago Burlington & Quincy C M & St P Chicago Milwaukee St. Paul & Pacific G R & I Grand Rapids & Indiana ("The Fishing Line", and a PRR Lines West) G N Great Northern B & O Baltimore & Ohio S AL Seaboard Air Line P M Pere Marquette L S & M S Lake Shore & Michigan Southern (New York Central Lines) N Y C & H R New York Central & Hudson River Railroad (NYC Lines) L V Lehigh Valley M & St L Minneapolis & St.Louis Wabash ex-Toledo, Wabash &?? L & N L&N again L E & W Lake Erie & Western (or, "leave early and walk) D L &W Delaware Lackawanna & Western Big Four Cl, P F W & C=p, E & P=p, > > These are the debatables: ( anywhere there is a dash, it could be an > '&'.........) > C & M Cleveland & Marietta C S Ry Cincinnati Southern (leased by Southern Railway)? I - V ? A - V ? P H probably PCC&StL/Panhandle abbrieviation (PRR LW) E L ? K M Kanawha & Michigan (NYC Lines) P P W & C ? C H & D Cincinnati Hamilton & Dayton (became B&O) F & P M Flint & Pere Marquette C & M V ? & Muskingum Valley M R R R ? C L & W ? P F N W ? O & L K ? B & B C ? B & O S W Baltimore & Ohio Southwestern (former Ohio & Mississippi, ran from Cincinnati to St. Louis and once had 3rd rail for 6-foot Erie trains. B&O controlled P & W ? I&V ? C A & C CA&C again M D T C Probably Merchants Despatch Transportation Company A V R Allegheny Valley Railroad? E C L ? T C S & D ? H V Hocking Valley (to C&O) P T R ? W Va S L ? P & W P&W again, still don't remember it A R Line ? C & P Cleveland & Pittsburgh (PRR Lines West) P Y & A Pittsburgh Youngstown & Ashtabula (NYC Lines?) P F C ? unless abbreviation for Pittsburgh Fort Wayne & Chicago (PRR LW) T F O W Co. ? T O C Toledo & Ohio Central U L ? P B & L E Pittsburgh Bethlehem & Lake Erie (later just B&LE) P Y &A again. > > It ==looks like== C&M and PH were PRR subsidiaries, since those road names > show up on work trains...usually only company cars went out in work > service.... > > To confirm Bary P, the WCCCo cars are only Gons, none other; > so that "Westmoreland Coal" sounds good, no matter how you spell it...... > > all yours, LinesWestFans........Bill*** > Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "tqpj6" Subject: [PRR] 65' G26a Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 08:18:17 -0500 Just received this kit from eastern car works. With all the talk about paints on the list lately, what are your suggestions for painting this kit? ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 09:20:57 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: [PRR] Directions to Hoss's Greetings to the groups, For those planning to attend dinner at Hoss's at 7PM on Saturday during Rail Fest, it is located at the corner of Valley View Blvd and 7th Street in Altoona. There is another Hoss's in the Altoona area. It is located at the Meadows Intersection between Duncansville and Hollidaysburg. DO NOT go there unless you want to eat by yourself. To get to Hoss's from the museum, take 17th Street as you would to get on Interstate 99/US Route 220. Just before getting on I 99/US 220 you will be at the intersections of 17th Street and both Pleasant Valley Blvd (the first one coming from the museum) and Valley View Blvd (the second one). Coming from the museum you want to make a left hand turn onto Valley View Blvd. Since it's one-way, you can only make a left hand turn onto Valley View Blvd coming from the museum on 17th Street. Once on Valley View, just count down the street numbers. Hoss's will be on the right hand side just after Dairy Queen. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 09:40:25 EDT Subject: [PRR] BM-60's I've asked this question before and have gotten many answers...all wrong! I am asking about the RPO cars the Pennsy ran and sold to the N&W. The class was: BM-60 I have a lot of information on the B-60 Baggage cars. The constant referrals to the Morning Sun PRR Equipment books is of no use for the BM-60's. They aren't there! I would really like to get some help on this car series but it seems everyone starts trying to help before they read what I'm actually asking. I'm not trying to be rude but they are completely different cars and B-60 info doesn't help any more than J-1 information when asking about T-1's. I'm sure there has to be something in some deep recess about these cars. They obviously existed and plans had to be available as ALCO Models produced the cars. Since ALCO Models is no longer with us, even that road is a dead end. I ask once again for my fellow Pennsy fans to help me find the information needed to paint and accurately operate these cars. How many? What numbers? When built? Time frame operated? The cars sold to the N&W were purchased in 1937 so maybe that's when the PRR deemed them unnecessary? HELP!!!!!!!! Roger ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 07:30:54 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [prr] antique road names Here are my guesses on Bill's list of antique Lines West reporting marks. I'm assuming they all came from 1904. The references, such as 42:453, refer to ICC Valuation Reports. 42:453 means report volume 42, page 453. I haven't put down the dates of formation, but each company in the PRR and B&O lists was in existance in 1904 under the name given (except the B&BC). PRR subsidiaries, leased lines, etc. CA&C Cleveland Akron and Columbus Ry 23:577 Consolidated with C&MV in 1911 to form Cleveland Akron and Cincinnati RR B&BC Bedford and Blair County (that word again) 22:283 Consolidated with others to form Pennsylvania Midland in 1894 (Maybe it took over 10 years to get around to painting this one?) I&V Indianapolis and Vincennes 23:486 Consolidated with others to form Vandalia RR in 1905 AVR Allegheny Valley Railway 22:282 Merged into PRR in 1910 PTR Pennsylvania Terminal Railway 23:887 Consolidated with Louisville Bridge & Railroad Co. in 1918 to form Louisville Bridge and Terminal Railway Co. C&P Cleveland and Pittsburgh 23:447 conveyed to PFtW&C in 1916 PY&A Pittsburgh Youngstown and Ashtabula RR 23:551 became PY&A Railway in 1906 C&MV Cincinnati and Muskingum Valley RR 23:577 See CA&C above B&O subsidiaries, leased lines, etc. CH&D Cincinnati Hamilton and Dayton 42:453 reorganized as Toledo and Cincinnati in 1917 MR RR Monongahela River RR 42:500 disposed of all common carrier property to B&O in 1912 CL&W Cleveland Lorain and Wheeling 42:548 O&LK Ohio and Little Kanawha 42:407 B&OSW B&O Southwestern that is, "B&O Lines West" 42:464 P&W Pittsburgh and Western 42:416 WVaSL West Virginia Short Line 42:490 Miscellaneous: F&PM Flint and Pere Marquette later, Pere Marquette HV Hocking Valley later, C&O A R Line ? Armour Refrigerator Line ? TOC Toledo and Ohio Central UL Union Line PB&LE Pittsburgh Bessemer and Lake Erie later, Bessemer and Lake Erie === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 11:04:34 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: [PRR] Don't Forget the last of Pennsy's Narrow Gauge Feeders If you're planning to attend RailFest this weekend, you owe it to yourself to make the 1-hour round trip to Orbisonia, PA to visit and ride the East Broad Top. Of course, you'll see more if you return NEXT weekend during the Oct. 10-11 Fall Spectacular, but that is probably too much to ask. If any of you DO plan to come to the latter event, please stop by the Friends of the East Broad Top booth that will be set up on the grass near the roundhouse. Friends of the EBT will also be represented at RailFest. Vagel Keller Industrial Heritage Homepage http://www.usaor.net/users/vagelk ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] BM-60's Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 10:59:31 -0400 Roger, Can't add much except that it was NJ International / Custom Brass that produced the BM-60 models, not Alco Models. I had several and ended up selling them (long time ago) since I could not find any information on them. Dennis mailto:dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 10:56:04 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] BM-60's >I've asked this question before and have gotten many answers...all wrong! I am >asking about the RPO cars the Pennsy ran and sold to the N&W. The class was: > BM-60 Hi Roger, I think you'll find that you are finally asking at the right place! (a quick scan of my short term memory and the archives indicates that you haven't asked on this list before). >Can't add much except that it was NJ International / Custom Brass that >produced the BM-60 models, not Alco Models. I had several and ended up >selling them (long time ago) since I could not find any information on them. I too am familiar with the model Dennis described, as I have a box for one (In that box was a Railworks R-60, that was worth considerable more than the BM-60 price that I paid ) >I have a lot of information on the B-60 Baggage cars. The constant referrals >to the Morning Sun PRR Equipment books is of no use for the BM-60's. They >aren't there! "PRR passenger and freight car diagrams" has diagrams of the BM-60. You are quite correct in stating that there are few published photos and none in the "color guides to the PRR". I do not believe that the car is shown in the PRRT&HS passenger car book either, although the paint diagram on p15? (shooting completely from memory) covers the BM-60. I'll check again tonight >I ask once again for my fellow Pennsy fans to help me find the information >needed to paint and accurately operate these cars. painting: see above (I'll check tonight) - what year are you thinking? operating: The RPO section was only 15' and therefore was very limited. I can only imagine that these cars operated on branch lines, as the M-70 and BM-70 fleet was used for mainline trains. >How many? What numbers? >When built? Time frame operated? >The cars sold to the N&W were purchased in 1937 so maybe that's when the PRR >deemed them unnecessary? HELP!!!!!!!! Okay, here I'm stymied - hope someone else can help! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great literary works in Braille. ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 11:45:30 -0400 (EDT) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 1000 PRR F3A's A friend of mine got a couple of these in LV paint and one of the units had a dead short across one of the axles. Had to press one of the axles thru the wheel a bit more (using a socket that was the same size as the wheel and a small vise) in order to get the short out of the unit. Other than that problem and about 8oz of lead glued to the roof the units are nice running locos. He doesnt know about DCC but the receivers for Rail Command fit nicely as well. On Thu, 1 Oct 1998, Edward Turner - Atlanta - SSE wrote: > Greetings, > > I just picked up the two new Proto 1000 PRR F3A Locomotives. I thought I would > share my thoughts on this new line from LifeLike Products, in case anyone is > contemplating adding them to their collection. > > Product Information: > LifeLike Products 8172 > PROTO 1000 F3A PRR #9502 (PRR Class EF15 - Delivererd 1947) > DGLE - Single Stripe > LifeLike Products 8173 > PROTO 1000 F3A PRR #9508 (PRR Class EF15 - Delivererd 1948) > DGLE - Single Stripe > > Features include: > Proto2000 magnetic knuckle couplers, constant and drectional > lighting, dual mached brass flywheels, Balanced 5 pole skew > wound armature, Heavy die cast chassis, RP25 contour blackened > metal wheels, 8 wheel drive, 8 wheel pickup. > > Suggested Retail is $50.00. I am sure discounts vary. My local hobby > shop is selling them for $29.95. Walthers listed the item last week as > "in stock". They currently list them as NOT in stock with an Unknown for > expected delivery. "Pennsy Diesel Years" vol 5 lists these two road number > Locomotives as being based in Renova, PA in 1960. > > Ed's Amature Product Review: > > The model comes fully assembled, shell already mounted, ready-to-run. > > Paint Color - The DGLE shade is very close to black. The color is noticeably > blacker when compared to a Proto2000 DGLE E7 model. The shade is not as black > as the Proto2000 GP9 shade. When put side by side w/ the GP9, a hint of Green > is noticeable. > > Lettering/Striping - the single stripe and road numbers are very crisp. > > Running - In my brief tests, it runs every bit as well as my Proto2000 GP9's. > Smooth and quite, through a range of speeds. > > Detailing - Of course they had to cut corners somewhere. There is NO external > grab rail detailing like on the Proto 2000 E7A. The grab rails are there - they > are just molded as part of the body - so not very prototypical. The windshield > detail is similar to Proto2000. There is no interior cab detailing. The > Chicken-wire detailing on the cab side is surprisingly very good. It is > accurately an early model F3 w/ chicken wire down between the two portholes. > The detailing clearly shows the cab support struts behind the chicken wire. The > portholes are covered w/ the same clear plastic used on the windshield. The > roof mounted fans are not shrouded and are not see-through like on the Proto2000 > GP9's. The trucks are nicely detailed. The air horns on the roof are > accurately and nicely done. The rear of the cab, to include the rear door, > leave a bit to be desired. Reviewing photos I have of F3's - it sure looks like > they got all the details right, just not as crisp as on their Proto2000 line. > Overall, the detailing does not compare w/ a Proto2000, but for the money, I > would rate it very good. > > I am happy I have added these models to my collection. I hope this information > has been useful. > > Regards, > Ed > -+-+-===-+-+- -+-+-+-+-=====-+-+-+-+- -+-+-===-+-+- > | Edward F. Turner, System Support Engineer ed.turner@east.sun.com | > + Sun Microsystems, Inc., Enterprise Services Ph 770 360-6466 + > | 3655 North Point Parkway, Alpharetta, GA 30005 Fax 770 360-6460 | > -+-+-===-+-+- -+-+-+-+-=====-+-+-+-+- -+-+-===-+-+- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > William J. Enser Co-Network Administrator alcoman@bluemoon.net Technical Support & Validations x2 & V.90 Access net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System http://www.bluemoon.net www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network bbs.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMUD irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] Bowser GS gondolas... Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 12:51:28 -0400 Hi all, Greetings from the Altoona Econolodge! On the way to Railfest today I stopped at the Bowser factory store (English's Model Railway Supply) and got one of the first cases of their new GS gondolas. (They said they would be shipping to shops later in the week) The cars standard issue Bowser. The car itself is nicely executed, the detail is crisp etc even though the details are cast on. They now use polyscale paint so their cars aren't glossy anymore. They're still about the same shade though. The lettering is just ok. The larger lettering and keystones look ok to me but the smaller lettering just uses stock fonts. I still bought a few of each of the shadow and circle keystone cars. The circle keystone cars are in the 860xxx series which agrees with the GS listing on my web site. The shadow keystone cars are in the 390xxx series, these cars are listed as class GSH -- these are rebuilt cars -- I'm not sure if there are any visible differences between the classes... Overall, they're nice cars. I'll probably repaint and decal them eventually but for now they look pretty good! Rob ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] BP20s - It's a Miracle! Date: Fri, 2 Oct 98 19:28:56 -0400 From: Jerry Guess what arrived today? My eval BP20 Shark from Miracle Castings! As I am getting ready to leave for RailFest at 5 a.m., I'm not going to be able to do an in-depth eval before I leave. However, I am taking the unit with me to Altoona for comments from those in attendence. Prefacing my initial comments, let me say that I have seen much better...but not in a BP20 Shark! I'd prefer this unit to be better but, short of brass, it's all we've got. Once painted and dressed up, however, it should satisfy most modelers, including myself. Now, some initial comments: All of the windows require filing. Some are filled in with a narrow layer of resin (on the inside). The detailing is not crisp, like a P2K, but that's to be expected. The curvature of the nose has a "carved" look. It's not real rough, but the gleen of the resin reflects light and you can notice it. However, once painted I don't think this will be a factor. The unit includes its own chassis, to answer a long standing question. Only the power trucks are needed from the Athearn PA mechanism. The unit includes a headlamp casting, but no bulb. It is considered optional, "if the modeler wants it to be lit." Anyone paying this much for a shell would want a working headlight! No decals. This was known up front, but again, they should be included. Even for a few bucks more, this should be an all-in-one (sans trucks, perhaps) kit! There's a detail -- not sure what it is yet -- on both sides of the unit, about where the stripe would pass through. It's about a foot square (scale), and there's one on each side in the front and in the rear. The one's in the rear are at the same place on both sides. However, the one's in the front are off by about 1/16". I'll look into this. All for now. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 15:02:40 EDT Subject: [PRR] 1904 reporting marks solved, well, nearly all Let try my hand at this. This first part is easy. I'lleven give the PRR lineage for subsidiaries where applicaible. N & W,= Norfolk & Western (wholly owned but independently operated PRR subsidiary) P W & B=Pittsburgh, Washington & Baltimore(PRR) T W V & O=Toledo, Walhonding Valley & Ohio(PRR/PO&D and I believe it is properly "Ohio River" TWVORRR is marked on PRR Co. maps) C A & C= Cleveland, Akron & Columbus(PRR/PO&D) C & O=Chesepeake & Ohio L & N=Louisville & Nashiville N C Rw=North Central Railway(PRR) G T =Grand Trunk Heinz Co=H.J.Hienz C0.of 57 flavors ie, the pickle car A A,=Ann Arborr M C=Michigan Central (NYC), C, B & Q=Chicago, Burlington & Quincy C M & St P=Chicago, Milwaukee & St.Paul G R & I =Grand Rapiids & Indiana (PFtW&Co/PRR/P.Co/) G N=Great Northern B & O=Baltimore & Ohio S A L,=Seaboard Air Line P M,=Pere Marquette L S & M S=Lake Shore & Michigan Southern (NYC) N Y C & H R=New York Central & Hudson River (NYC) L V,=Lehigh Valley (PRR controlled, independently operated M & St L,=Minneapolis & St. Louis Wab=Wabash, (PRR controlled, independently operated) L & N=Louisville & Nashville L E & W,=Lake Erie & Western (later a key part of the NIckel Plate Road() D L & W=Delaware, Lackawanna & Western Big Four,aka CCC&StL=Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati & St. Louis (NYC) P F W & C=Pittaburgh, Fort Wayne & Chicaago (PRR/P.Co.) E & P=Erie & Pittsburgh=PRR, These are qa litttle more difficult. I used the Kalmbach 1948 railroadatlas on these C & M=Cleveland & Marietta (PRR/P.Co/PFtW&C) C S Ry=Carolina Southern I - V=Indianapolis & Vincennes A - V=Aroostook Valley P H, aks PCC&StL Panhandle/pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis E L=Erie Lackawwannaa K M= P P W & C,=(probably PIttsburgh,Fort Wayne & Chicago C H & D=Cincinnati, Hamilton & Dayton (B&O) F & P M, C & M V,=Cincinnati & Muskingum Valley (PRR/PO&D)) M R R R=Mineral Range? C L & W=(Cincinnati, Lebanon & Northern?) P F N W,= O & L K= B & B C= B & O S W, P & W=Pittsburgh & Wheeling I & V=Indianspolis & Vincennes (PRR/VRR/PCC&StL) C A & C=Clevelandd, Akrom & Columbus (PRR/PO&D) M D T C,=Merchants Despatch Trans. Co. A V R,=Aroostook Valley E C L= T C S & D= H V,=Hocking Valley RR P T R,= W Va S L,=West Virginia Shortline P & W,=Pittsburgh & Wheeling A R Line=American Refrigerated Transit? C & P=Cleveland & Pittsburgh (PFtW&C/PRR/P.Co.) P Y & A=Pittsburgh, Youngstown & Ashtabuls (PRR/P.Co./PFtW&C) P F C,= T F O W Co.= T O C,= U L=Union T P B & L E= Pittsburgh, Bessemer & Lake Erie . OKaaay, how 'bout: (Some of these are precursors of the PRR, so get out yer Burgess & Kennedy!) CL&N, M&C, DL&CRR&TCo., LMRR, D&W, C&X, CC&IC, R&C. StLC&P, StL&TH, JM&I, TH&P, VRR, I&F, CI,, LA&S, DT&I. P&E, W&WRR, OR&W, VGN, CN&St.L, ACL, B&M, NYNH&H, CIL, TDC&StL, MR&LE, A&GW, CORR ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Date: Fri, 2 Oct 98 13:52:31 -0400 From: Jerry On 10/2/98 1:22 PM, Eric J. Minton (eminton@hula.net) wrote: >Please place me on hold for all of my list's, I will be away from my >computer until Oct. 18,1998. Respectfully, to you, Eric, and to others, I cannot be your personal mailman. If you don't want to receive mail, then unsusbscribe. Subscribe when you return. If you don't know how, send "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". There are 250+ people on the "PRR-Talk" list; 220+ on the "Conrail-Talk" list; 90+ on the "psufootball" list; etc., etc., etc. I cannot handle personal requests like this given this many people. You need to take on this responsibility yourself! Furthermore, such a request should never have been posted to the list. Why do 250 people need to know that you are going away for two weeks and you want me to hold your mail? --Jerry, Listmaster ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 07:22:04 -1000 From: "Eric J. Minton" Subject: [PRR] Aloha Jerry, Please place me on hold for all of my list's, I will be away from my computer until Oct. 18,1998. Thanks, Eric ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Multiple Posts - Listmaster comment Date: Fri, 2 Oct 98 10:04:25 -0400 From: Jerry On 10/2/98 9:29 AM, Huber25@aol.com (Huber25@aol.com) wrote: >I'm sorry that some of you have received multiple posts of my recent plea for >help on the BM-60 RPO cars. I assure you I only sent the request to this >address once. I'm sorry it upset some of you and even though it wasn't my >doing....I apologize for ruining your day. I would think the problem of the >multiple posts is the provider. I can assure you that, under the current setup, there are no dupes coming out of DSOP.COM. The listserv is no longer sending mail directly to the subscribers. There is one strange case, with Brady McQuire, that almost suggests that another list may be rebroadcasting "PRR-Talk" posts to "some" subscribers. Nobody, however, has provided me with complete copies of these e-mails so that I can disect the long headers. When evaluating "dupes" in your mailbox, please be very careful to be sure it is a word-for-word dupe with no new text at the beginning or the end. There were numerous very similar BM60 posts, but different variations -- perhaps cross-posts from other lists. If any subscriber is found to be rebroadcasting -- which can not only cause dupes but also mail loops -- the will be unsubscribed immediately and permanently prevented from resubscribing. --Jerry, Listmeister ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 09:29:49 EDT Subject: [PRR] Multiple Posts I'm sorry that some of you have received multiple posts of my recent plea for help on the BM-60 RPO cars. I assure you I only sent the request to this address once. I'm sorry it upset some of you and even though it wasn't my doing....I apologize for ruining your day. I would think the problem of the multiple posts is the provider. If this one gets sent more than once......tough! I assume no more responsibility and you guys need to get mad at someone else...not me. Roger ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "tqpj6" Subject: [PRR] freight car lettering Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 07:49:10 -0500 Please Help, Im modeling the late steam, early diesel era post WWII to 1950. Im confused by the different lettering options available. Should i use circle keystone, shadow keystone, block letters, or a combination? Please help walt ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP20 Date: Fri, 2 Oct 98 05:23:35 -0400 From: Jerry On 10/2/98 12:42 AM, Bobspf@aol.com (Bobspf@aol.com) wrote: >Any reviews yet on these shells and the kit from list member(s)? I -- "Merchandise Service" -- was made one of their official distributors in the U.S. In fact, we were the first one listed on their web site! However, before placing an order for stock, I ordered one eval unit (which I am paying for). I've been waiting for about a month now, when I was told they would ship within a week. Last word was that they were shipping it out "today", and I think that was last Friday. Still don't have it. Their web site now has more complete photos, and I must say, it looks pretty good. I'll let the list know when (if) I receive the shell and my opinion. If it pans out, I will offer a shell/Athearn mechanism bundle. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 00:42:03 EDT Subject: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP20 Any reviews yet on these shells and the kit from list member(s)? Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 21:18:03 EDT Subject: [PRR] Penna Lines West of..... ***Listen.!!! ..I want to get this out there for you P. Lines West guys.... Can someone coodinate...anyone...= Sweet Old Bob N., Rick T., Barry P., Rick R..............any of you guys.. I can send it out, someone can copy and share / distribute, whatever.... I am also in touch with John Schultz - out near North Judson, involved in their museum, etc....they would probably appreciate a copy.... Pls discuss and get back to me, and I will send it right out........ A nice piece, and, maybe someday someone will find me some ...... ..................PRRSignals = stuff..!!!!!................................Bill****** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 20:59:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Edward Turner - Atlanta - SSE Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 1000 PRR F3A's > Did they get the windshield shape right or are they square like the > Athearn F7? What about nose contour? > Yes, the windshield shape is accurate. Looking straight on from the front, the top of the windshield and frame contours with the top of the cab. The bottom also contours with the nose contour. The only barely noticeable discrepancy on the nose section is the transition underneath the windshield as that body section flows onto the nose. When looking at the model from the side, that transition is a little sharper than one would find on a prototype. Regards, Ed -+-+-===-+-+- -+-+-+-+-=====-+-+-+-+- -+-+-===-+-+- | Edward F. Turner, System Support Engineer ed.turner@east.sun.com | + Sun Microsystems, Inc., Enterprise Services Ph 770 360-6466 + | 3655 North Point Parkway, Alpharetta, GA 30005 Fax 770 360-6460 | -+-+-===-+-+- -+-+-+-+-=====-+-+-+-+- -+-+-===-+-+- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 13:34:35 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 1000 PRR F3A's From: locoshop@juno.com These units have the SAME power drive as the Proto 2000 line of locomotives. The ONLY difference is that the P1K will not have the plug-and-play DCC socket in it. On Thu, 1 Oct 1998 09:00:16 EDT Bobspf@aol.com writes: >In a message dated 10/1/98 5:40:40 AM Central Daylight Time, >jerry@dsop.com >writes: > ><< Looks comparable (detail wise, not operation wise) to a Walthers > Trainline or an Athearn, though perhaps better than the latter. >> > >Didn't check nose contour or window shape,but I thought screening >detail was >superior to anything Walthers or Athearn would do for an F3 prior to >now >(Athearn's purchase of Highliner tooling makes the future >possibilities a lot >different) , and I wish my Stewart had as good a striping and >lettering job. >No separate details like a P2K but not in the same price range, >either. >I would be interested in the performance--isn't it the same mechanism? > If so, >then I consider it a bargain,but then I am an operations nut and my >bifocals >don't focus down to separate grabirons in a dimly lit train room, even >though >I occasionally add them myself just because "I know they are there". > >BTW, I saw mine at Termnal Hobby Shop at Walthers, not to be confused >with >their distributorship . Once it has moved to THS shelves, it is off >Walthers >online inventory list. > >Bob Zoeller > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > Jeremy Helms Conrail & Norfolk Southern Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to use the Internet? Get fast, reliable, affordable Web access >From Juno, the world's second largest online service. Download your free software here. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 18:49:12 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Some BM-60 info Ok i'm back... First of all...for those who don't know... there is a diagram for a BM-60 in the "PRR Passenger and Freight Car Diagrams" book. On page 3. this book is by Robert J. Wayner Wayner Publications 1981 Sometimes you can find these books at train shows. There is also the BM-62..But this is not the same car. This car (BM-62) is a MU car or older trailer. Both types were sold to the N&W. The information i have on the cars sold to the N&W comes from "Norfolk & Western Rwy. Willison Terminal:1953" 1992 Bison Publishing Corp. Some of the cars purchased by the N&W were former PRR BM-62 class cars. N&W class MBj, Nos 330-334 These were bought from the PRR in 1934 and off the N&W Roster by 9-1949. The N&W Roster also lists 5 cars in N&W class BMh Delivered in 1929 Built by Beth Steel...but does'nt list if they were bought from the PRR. Although...their lenth,RPO lenth,baggage lenth,weight(with-in 1,000 Pds) and truck type all match PRR designs.(it even says the truck type was PRR) Nos. were 14-18 Next is N&W class M-1 Delivered in Dec. 1937, Also built by Beth. Steel. again everything is the same except they are slightly heavier. (11 tons heavier) Nos. were 90-98 There were also 10 N&W class BEk cars Delivered in 1929 also built by Beth Steel. again the same dimentions, but 6 tons lighter these cars are listed as straight baggage cars(It possible that they could have been converted to regular baggage cars) Nos. were 125-134. NOTE: Some of these same cars may exist today, These may be some of the same cars used in N&W steam excursion service. Also there are two cars of this type here in Norfolk at the Eastern Shore R.R.s Little Creek yard. It is very likely that at least some of these cars are former PRR class BM-60 cars...I just wish the book had listed if N&W or PRR were the original owner or not. Also the book " Tidewater Triangle" by Robert J. Yanosey 1988 by Morning Sun Books Shows short Baggage Mail cars in three pictures of N&W passenger trains on pages 37,38, and 39. All pictures were taken during the 1960's. There are more pictures of PRR like N&W 60 ft. baggage cars on other pages too. I don't know if this has helped or confused anyone,but thats what i have on them. Til Later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 15:29:25 -0700 Subject: [PRR] Need help for PRR plans From: staffsgtyork@juno.com Hey group... I received the message below on the date given. I NEED said track plans for my research on Delmarva's Pennsy operations. When responding to Steve's Email, my letters are rejected by the software at NASA. His server may not have my server's address on file. If any of you can get through (I'm on Juno and it is sometimes restrictive), advise him that I could use a hard copy of the PRR Little Creek track plans. I can be reached at work--410-549-9169. Thanks, David W. "SSGT" York >>On Sun, 27 Sep 1998 09:21:18 -0400 "Steve Bundick" > writes: >>This is a multi-part message in MIME format. >> >>------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BDE9F8.2EC70CC0 >>Content-Type: text/plain; >> charset="iso-8859-1" >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >>Was looking through some of the mail on J Briton's Keystone Crossings > >>= >>and saw that you were looking for some track plans in the Norfolk >>area. = >>I have a PRR track chart showing Little Creek to St. Julian Ave. It >is >>= >>probably circa late 50's or early 60's. The chart also includes >>Delmarva = >>showing single track. I think the 2nd track was removed around 56. >>I'm = >>from Pocomoke, Md, and have big interest in the Delmarva line. Let me > >>= >>know if you are interested in a copy of the chart. It's only about a >= >>page. >> >>-Steve >> > >--RAAAA10315.907190706/x16.boston.juno.com-- > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 17:26:44 EDT Subject: [PRR] BM60 Pennsy folks, I knew this class designation rang a bell somewhere. I dug out Wayner's 1969 book "Pennsy Car Plans" and sure as heck it has a drawing of this car, on page 6. Gives capy as 25,000 pds baggage end, weight 105,500 pounds, 6 ft bagg door, 2ft-6 in RPO door, 15'-1" RPO section, 44'-7 7/8" bagg section. But it doesn't list the car numbers! Guess I can't help there. But now that you've got my interest up I better run downstairs and check out that old Walther's kit and see how close it might come.I hope it's close, cause I ain't about to start carving and rearranging metal sides at this stage of life. Regards, Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Terry Link" Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 17:57:39 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: Jerry >Anyone have a web URL or e-mail address for Red Caboose? > >I checked the MRIA (Model Railroad Industry Association) site, but their >search engine is down. (I have notified their webmaster.) > >REDCABOOSE.COM is a craft shop (totally unrelated). > >From their dealer information sheet it's www.red-caboose.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 16:51:16 EDT Subject: Re: [prr] antique road names ***wow, sweet old bob, I am in awe. Thanks; I well appreciate the Sincere and factual research that had to be done for that compilation..!!!!!....More P-L-W stuff whenever I can share it .....Bill*/**** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 17:53:55 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] BM-60 cars Hi Guys... I have some info on the BM-60 cars (and the cars sold to N&W) I'll get back to you all a little later tonight with it. Til Later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] SALE: P2K PA's Date: Thu, 1 Oct 98 15:53:50 -0400 From: Jerry "Merchandise Service" has received in its shipment of the new Tuscan PA's and PB's. Wow!!! All who have placed advance orders will ship out tomorrow. Thank you. After filling all orders, we'll have a few PA's left and one PB. Prices are $70 and $35 respectively...yes, they were less expensive if you pre-ordered! Add $5 shipping. Remember: Proceeds benefit operation of the lists and "Keystone Crossings". Thank you for your support. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AJSNGS@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 17:01:40 EDT Subject: [PRR] 1926 Railway Engineering & Maintenance Cyclopedia FS I have on Ebay a 1926 Railway Engineering & Maintenance Cyclopedia for sale. It is over 1000 pages with thousands of photos and diagrams. Covers every aspect of track, bridges, buildings, motor cars, water for locos and signals (semaphore and electric). The Track Section was written by W.F. Rench supervisor PRR Ebay # 33133705 See listing for more details ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 16:34:17 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] ...more 1904... In a message dated 10/1/98 7:10:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time, RickTipton writes: << Subj: Re: [PRR] ...more 1904... Date: 10/1/98 7:10:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time From: RickTipton To: PRRSignals, PRR-Talk@dsop.com CC: Stuthayer, LINESWEST, rmweinheimer@newwave.net Bill, A great brain teaser. This is all I can do from memory; will have to look up the rest. BTW, it's interesting that this list contains no CL&N Cincinnati Lebanon & Northern (PRR LW) - probably too small VRR Vandalia RR (cars probably marked PCC&StL/PH by then) NOR Cincinnati Northern (an NYC Lines company still very much alive around 1904) >> ***OOOhhh, okay...me slow, coming along, kinda modern dude ( 1950's up) , weak on history, pls forgive.. ..PCC&StL = PH....aha.!!!!....that last bunch was all i could find that were not repetitions. I would love to have more like that, a record of exactly what it was.....my kinda facts, versus speculations / guesses / discussions about english land divisions ( ahem.. .) neat...I will throw anything that i get P L W on here for you guys, are you are also dedicated researchers, and real enthusiasts.!!!!..............Bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] head end videos Date: Thu, 1 Oct 98 15:41:26 -0400 From: Jerry On 10/1/98 2:22 PM, Thomas K. Trower (tktrower@earthlink.net) wrote: >What do you guys think of Railroad Video Productions videos?? I have their >Philly-New York cab ride video, excellent. I've wondered how good these "cab ride" videos are. Their "Pennsylvania Limited" series -- four, I believe -- covers the main from Philly to Pittsburgh. There is a two-tape series covering the "Port Road" that also interested me. Is there a lot of voice annotation pointing things out? Or is it mostly background music to sit back and enjoy the ride? Too bad it's all modern stuff. Hmmm. Maybe when K4s 1361 is restored they can reshoot the Middle Division...sending some restored equipment the other way for meets and all! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: [PRR] head end videos Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 14:22:52 -0400 What do you guys think of Railroad Video Productions videos?? I have their Philly-New York cab ride video, excellent. Anyone have their New York-New Haven and New Haven-Providence cab ride videos? I'm thinkin of gettin these and wonder if their any good. Josh Trower ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] X29 Variants Date: Thu, 1 Oct 98 13:18:29 -0400 From: Jerry In reviewing the many variants of the X-29 that Red Caboose offers, I'd like to know the eras applicable to each scheme. Obviously, any scheme could last to eternity, but when did the following first appear: "Merchandise Service" "Buy War Bonds" <----suspect this was WWII @ 1941 "Railway Express Agency" "Shadow Keystone" Though not showing on the Red Caboose web site at present, I have seen these in hobby shops: "Calendar Numbers" "Don't Stand Me Still" <---I think I saw a post-WWII reference for this one. Are/were there any others offered by Red Caboose? Are/were there other prototype schemes? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 1000 PRR F3A's Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 12:50:34 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell On 1 Oct, Edward Turner - Atlanta - SSE wrote: > Detailing - Of course they had to cut corners somewhere. There is NO external > grab rail detailing like on the Proto 2000 E7A. The grab rails are there - they > are just molded as part of the body - so not very prototypical. It's very interesting that in making the shell as cheap to produce as possible (ie, no by-hand assembly) they managed to cut the price by that much. Of course, that's all we've had in N scale so far anyway... Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 13:33:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] HO PRR items for trade (sale?) I have some duplicate items I'd like to get something interesting for, and with RailFest Saturday I figure this would be the best time for trades. I have: Atlas 3 bay Cylindrical Hopper PRR #260022 (Atlas no 1935-4) Proto 2000 DGLE E7B #5853 Ideally I'd like to trade each for another number (the Atlas for a 1935-2 or 1935-3, the P2K for the other DGLE E7B number) but I'll entertain any interesting offer... by personal email of course! I have some other duplicates around, but these are the most interesting ones. The rest are on the order of $4-$7 freight cars. -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 98 12:47:13 CST Subject: [PRR] Unloading some stuff... Hi, all, This is a bit off-topic, but in a recent much-needed clean-up of my rr stuff, I ran across two Howard Fogg color prints (def. not originals) which I've decided I can do without. If anyone is interested, they're yours for $ 9 each including postage. Each image is 14x20". One shows two Lackawanna RS-3's on single track in a fall setting. The other shows some train being pulled by some steam engine called a HUDSON. I think the train was called the 20th Century Limited? Yeh, it's an NYC scene. All I can say in my defense for mentioning the Enemy on this list is that it was a gift. BTW the NYC scene has a white border; the DL&W one does not. Anyone interested? PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] BM-60's From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 98 12:06:31 -0400 Roger, I do know that they ran on the LIRR as well. I think I have a photo of one on the LI in the 50s. I have never found any record of their presence on the PRR in any era I am interested in. The PRR either sold them all early or only built them for its affiliates. regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 09:42:53 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] head end videos Thomas K. Trower wrote: > > What do you guys think of Railroad Video Productions videos?? I have their Philly-New York cab ride video, excellent. > > Anyone have their New York-New Haven and New Haven-Providence cab ride videos? I'm thinkin of gettin these and wonder if their any good. > > Here's one opinion of RR Video tapes that seems to apply to at least MOST of the ones I have bought/seen: They are technically good, NO background music :-)) BUT: On the ride from NY to New Haven, I was looking forward to the view coming around the curve into Stamford. Walt Berko, the owner/cameraman of RR Video, chose that moment to pan left and look at the Stamford skyline until the train was well into the station. So much for that scene. One the Phila-NY tape, as we were about to get a great vies of the massive Passaic River drawbridge leaving Newark, he turned the camera down to study oil storage tanks along the riverbank. On the Altoona-Johnstown portion of the tape covering that area, he was on an outer track going around Horseshoe. No view of Horseshoe Curve, as a freight was blocking the view on the inside track. Although it is not his fault, and he did try to make up for this by adding on footage of another trip over the Curve, he couldn't decide whether to keep the camera on the curve or go back and look at the railfans lining the fence. We were thereby treated to the back-and-forth weaving of the camera. Finally out of the curve, I anticipated at least a look up the hill to the next curve at the top of the Horseshoe area---end of tape, no such luck. In addition, Walt sometimes makes excessive use of the lens zooming feature, quite disconcerting when the train is moving, and only slightly less so just after a station stop. No music, as I said, but Walt does keep up an intermittent dialogue with the engine crew, often on items unrelated to the tape, and definitely dated with regard to the subject. On one NE Corridor tape he comments at almost every closed interlocking tower, "No longer in service," a true statement, but overall cumulatively depressing. A rundown at the end on closed towers would have served the purpose with less distraction. Final frustration: On the cab ride into Grand Central, after the long ride through the Park Avenue Tunnel, with little more to see than featureless tunnel walls somewhat dimly lit by the headlight, he shut off the tape just before the final arrival and station stop. On a positive note, the annoyances aside, these are an excellent source of scenery information, and great train rides. As a retired engineman, I never get tired of the view out the front. Signals are hard to read, but that is a characteristic of the video lighting conditions and the limitations of the TV display. At a train meet a few years ago I described my frustration with the tapes to Walt's son, who was in charge of the Railroad Video booth; the tapes I mentioned had already been produced...I do not know if the word ever got back to Walt or had any effect. My inflated $0.02. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 09:42:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] [D] Miracle Castings DR-6-4-2000 shark A unit (fwd) A repost of my review of the BP20's.... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Mine arrived today (along with a letter indicating that I was apparently customer #1:-) I just opened it and gave it the once-over. Looks good. Notably: a) the roof detail appears to match the photos I have, which admittedly I can't make out very well. b) lacking shots of the rear of the units, I can't comment on the accuracy of that portion, but it compares well with the Roco/Model Power/soon-to-be E-R units c) the rivet detail and the batten strips are at least as good as I've seen on any other resin model d) the nose contours appear correct In the way of compromise, I see: e) the back doors on the unit aren't recessed as they should be; It appears that because of the space needed inside the frame for the trucks that this was necessary f) the number of vent slats along the vents just below the roof line on the sides is too few. g) a few wavy spots in the body. nothing that looks like it will be a real problem to deal with In all, looks like it will be a worthy addition to my Pennsy diesel fleet. I'll be digging out my spare Athearn PA units so I can scrap one for a drive for this, so I can get to work on it. (I've thus far failed to do this. djb 10/3/98) -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 09:33:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Miracle Castings BP20 On Fri, 2 Oct 1998 Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > Any reviews yet on these shells and the kit from list member(s)? I thought I CC'd my review here; I will find it and resend. -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 10:26:06 -0500 Subject: [PRR] X-29s From: locoshop@juno.com Hello all, Hope you are enjoying your day at Railfest. I want to tag on a question about the X-29s to Jerry's. How accurate are the Circle Keysone cars for printed lettering? Thanks. Jeremy Helms Omaha, Nebraska locoshop@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gripp, William [NCSUS]" Subject: RE: [PRR] Proto 1000 PRR F3A's Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 12:26:05 -0400 Actually as I understand it, P1K uses pre-existing shells on P2K quality drives. The F3 shell is supposedly the same one that has been around for years. > ---------- > From: Dennis Rockwell[SMTP:dennis@bbn.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 01, 1998 12:50 PM > To: Pennsy Fans > Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 1000 PRR F3A's > > On 1 Oct, Edward Turner - Atlanta - SSE wrote: > > > Detailing - Of course they had to cut corners somewhere. There is NO > external > > grab rail detailing like on the Proto 2000 E7A. The grab rails are > there - they > > are just molded as part of the body - so not very prototypical. > > It's very interesting that in making the shell as cheap to > produce as possible (ie, no by-hand assembly) they managed > to cut the price by that much. > > Of course, that's all we've had in N scale so far anyway... > > Dennis > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Greg Johnson Subject: RE: [PRR] head end videos Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 13:20:33 -0500 Jerry, I have four of the RVP tapes and I really enjoy them. My personal interest was for views of the trackside industrial sites. As for narration, it depends upon the tape. Generally there is nothing but live in-cab audio. There is of course the backgraound engine noise with the conversation between the engineer and videographer being heard as well. The "narrator" (videographer) on some of the tapes does call off CP's, rivers and station sites. Since he used to railroad in the Northeast, he is pretty knowledgable with the areas he films. The only drawback to the tapes is the're hypnotic. You find yourself transfixed at the scenery coming up and around you, and you just gotta see what's around the next bend! Regards Greg Johnson Modeling Pittsburg steel in the 60's in Houston in the 90's -----Original Message----- From: Jerry [SMTP:jerry@dsop.com] Sent: Thursday, October 01, 1998 2:41 PM To: 'prr-talk@dsop.com' Subject: Re: [PRR] head end videos On 10/1/98 2:22 PM, Thomas K. Trower (tktrower@earthlink.net) wrote: >What do you guys think of Railroad Video Productions videos?? I have their >Philly-New York cab ride video, excellent. I've wondered how good these "cab ride" videos are. Their "Pennsylvania Limited" series -- four, I believe -- covers the main from Philly to Pittsburgh. There is a two-tape series covering the "Port Road" that also interested me. Is there a lot of voice annotation pointing things out? Or is it mostly background music to sit back and enjoy the ride? Too bad it's all modern stuff. Hmmm. Maybe when K4s 1361 is restored they can reshoot the Middle Division...sending some restored equipment the other way for meets and all! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FRANKGARON@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 15:28:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] head end videos I have about 10 of these head end videos. They are worth the $20, IMHO. Don't expect too much in the way of information, though. Most of the time it's just the camera rolling and what ever it sees is what you get. I did use it to find several good photo spots and structures that I didn't know existed. I have dealt directly with Walter Berko and he seems to be a real decent guy. I can only say order one, I think you'll be happy (for the price). Frank Garon Perth Amboy 10/98: 15 years since the last GG1! (I'm still in mourning!!!) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 16:09:59 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X29 Variants In a message dated 10/3/98 8:16:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: > "Merchandise Service" 9/47-9/57 > "Buy War Bonds" <----suspect this was WWII @ 1941 > "Railway Express Agency" 1930-1954 > "Shadow Keystone" 2/54 -1961 Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRSignals@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 18:49:40 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] head end videos In a message dated 10/3/98 5:14:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << Subj: Re: [PRR] head end videos Date: 10/3/98 5:14:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time From: jerry@dsop.com (Jerry) Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com ('prr-talk@dsop.com') On 10/1/98 2:22 PM, Thomas K. Trower (tktrower@earthlink.net) wrote: >What do you guys think of Railroad Video Productions videos?? I have their >Philly-New York cab ride video, excellent. I've wondered how good these "cab ride" videos are. Their "Pennsylvania Limited" series -- four, I believe -- covers the main from Philly to Pittsburgh. There is a two-tape series covering the "Port Road" that also interested me. Is there a lot of voice annotation pointing things out? Or is it mostly background music to sit back and enjoy the ride? Too bad it's all modern stuff. Hmmm. Maybe when K4s 1361 is restored they can reshoot the Middle Division...sending some restored equipment the other way for meets and all! >> **Great stuff, especially GG1 4877 cab ride with benny eckman (?) So Amboy to NYCity.. necessary narration only included as information, very well done..Bill**** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 17:21:02 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X29 Variants In a message dated 10/3/98 8:16:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << "Merchandise Service" "Buy War Bonds" <----suspect this was WWII @ 1941 "Railway Express Agency" "Shadow Keystone" >> Jerry, Some of these may be more applicable to the X-29B rebuilds (with new 10' high steel bodies between 1948 and 1954 that updated these boxes to the 1944 AAR standards. Greg Martin has a story in the November 1992 Mainline Modeler about using the McKean kit for an X-29B but also notes that there was a Sunshine resin kit offered. In the December 1992 MM is a prototype story on the X-29B with a drawing of the original Merchandise Service scheme, Circle Keystone with Aluminum stripe outlined in white by Robert Hundsman "Railway Express Agency,": "Buy War Bonds" and the simple Roadname only steam- era scheme definitely. The war didn't start until December 1941 so any wartime propaganda would be 1942 or later. 1942 and early 1943 would be the time for this scheme to be shiny. There were three Merchandise Service schemes. The aforementioned "Circle Keystone with Aluminum stripe began in 1948. This was later simplified by painting the stripe all white. In 1954 when the Shadow Keystone was adopted, the stripe became all white and was broken for the shadow keystone with the break in the stripe matching the sides of the keystone. The PRR Compendium shows this scheme for the X26C, X29, X-29B, X40B and X41B and for the X29. This lasted from 1954 until the service fizzled out sometime about 1958. Roadname only pre-1927 Roadname underline 1927-1947 Circle Keystone in effect (generally) 1947-1954. Shadow Keystone in effect (generally) 1954-1961 1954-1960 Roadname spelled out on car side at opposite end from herald and Pennsy-style car data 1960-1961 Reporting marks on car side at opposite end from herald, AAR-style car data. Railway Express Agency, according to PRR Color Guide Vol. 1 were more than 1,200 X29 and X29A boxes rebuilt for headend service between 1924-1934. 1924-1947 Steam-era scheme, ; lettering of roadname and REA name only. 1947-1954 Circle Keystone painted above REA name PRR compendium shows no post 1954 REA scheme. Lines West Forever! Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 19:34:05 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] head end videos In a message dated 10/3/98 9:15:21 AM Central Daylight Time, sbartlet@capecod.net writes: << In addition, Walt sometimes makes excessive use of the lens zooming feature, >> Violating rule 1 of Videotaping 101. Biggest mistake of beginning videotapers(including yours truly when I got my new toy about 6 years ago). Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 19:45:33 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X29 Variants In a message dated 10/3/98 3:32:06 PM Central Daylight Time, SUVCWORR@aol.com writes: << Buy War Bonds" <----suspect this was WWII @ 1941 >> Might be later in the war. Only because War Bonds had nothing to do with fighting the war. They were needed to fight inflation as the war dragged on (that level of military spending has usually resulted in very high inflation) Whole Buy War Bonds effort was a BIg Lie in that respect (convincing people it would save Johnny's life) , but the motives and the ends were good. Bob (not a political statement , but an economics one) Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 21:16:59 EDT Subject: [PRR] X29 Variants Jerry & Pennsy Folks, As regards the circle keystone paint scheme, it was introduced , it seems, on cars painted in 1930. 1928 Car Builders Cyclopedia didn't show this herald , but the 1931 edition showed cars painted the previous year to be carrying the famous circle on box cars, gons and hoppers. Perhaps someone has more precise info as to exact dates, but there's little doubt this scheme saw about a quarter century of use. What makes it tough for the modeler is deciding between applying the circle or the equally appealing shadow version on some of those favorite cars. Decisions, decisions! By the way, I talked earlier today to the fella who produces Brass Car Sides, at a railraod flea market. He says that his sides have been sized to fit the AHM/IHC cars without any surgery on their lengths, which could be a real break. That P85 does look good. Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 23:04:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] freight car lettering Walt, If you are modeling WW II to 1950 then you are limited to lettering with the "Keystone on the Ball" (circle Keystone) paint scheme (I always considered the Sharknose paint scheme to be the "circled Keystone"). Somewhat limiting and in my next article in Model Railroading I will do a recap on PRR Lettering and Paint Guide. It is a simple side bar but it covers the basics, it should publish in DEC or Jan. Greg Martin ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 23:38:05 EDT Subject: [PRR] Thanks I would like to thank all of you that responded to my question about the Pennsy BM-60 RPO cars. While the question still exists about their numbering, heritage and use I did get a little more information on the cars and had some good "conversations" with you guys. Thanks for the help. If any one digs up the info on them please let me know. Roger ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] freight car lettering Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 12:42:49 -0400 Circle Keystone is the way to go. Shadow keystone was introduced in 1954. Block letters (plain keystone) was even later. Rob S. from the parking lot of the Station Mall... ---------------------- http://prr.railfan.net > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of tqpj6 > Sent: Friday, October 02, 1998 8:49 AM > To: PRR-TALK > Subject: [PRR] freight car lettering > > > Please Help, > Im modeling the late steam, early diesel era post WWII to 1950. > Im confused > by the different lettering options available. Should i use circle > keystone, shadow keystone, block letters, or a combination? > > Please help > > walt > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] X29 Variants Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 12:42:43 -0400 My answers are interspersed below after the <======= Rob http://prr.railfan.net > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry > Sent: Thursday, October 01, 1998 1:18 PM > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: [PRR] X29 Variants > > > In reviewing the many variants of the X-29 that Red Caboose offers, I'd > like to know the eras applicable to each scheme. > > Obviously, any scheme could last to eternity, but when did the following > first appear: > > "Merchandise Service" > "Buy War Bonds" <----suspect this was WWII @ 1941 > "Railway Express Agency" > "Shadow Keystone" <====== 1954 > > Though not showing on the Red Caboose web site at present, I have seen > these in hobby shops: > > "Calendar Numbers" <====== This was the original shadow keysone scheme. Red caboose makes these. I think 4 out of the 12 shadow keystone cars have calander numbers. > "Don't Stand Me Still" <---I think I saw a post-WWII reference for > this one. <====== This was only on the X29D rebuilds. Supposedly coming soon from CB&T shops. > > Are/were there any others offered by Red Caboose? <==== don't think so. They are supposed to do the dreadnaught end version of the car eventually though. > > Are/were there other prototype schemes? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com > Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. > Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com > The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 00:38:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] Proto 1000 PRR F3A's On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Gripp, William [NCSUS] wrote: > Actually as I understand it, P1K uses pre-existing shells on P2K quality > drives. The F3 shell is supposedly the same one that has been around for > years. Several reviews have stated that it's a high caliber of mold-work, and the only complaint I've seen is it has molded-on grabs instead of none at all. The chicken wire (and the rest of the unit) are supposed to be at least as good as Stewart -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 00:52:40 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X29 Variants (reply) Jerry, My oh my we must bring you up to speed! In a message dated 10/3/98 5:16:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << In reviewing the many variants of the X-29 that Red Caboose offers, I'd like to know the eras applicable to each scheme. Obviously, any scheme could last to eternity, but when did the following first appear: <"Merchandise Service"> There were three Merchandise Service schemes I have seen photo evidence of "basic" X-29's in 2 of three. < "Buy War Bonds" <----suspect this was W.W.II @ 1941> I think that they lost the slogan after W.W.II but when exactly is a good question. <"Railway Express Agency"> The scheme hit around 1940 and lasted until it was repainted or wore off. < "Shadow Keystone"> This scheme was introduced in Feb. 1954 wit the "stylized calendar lettering" and was modified in July to return to the serif lettering and numerals. Then it continued to evolve until 1962 with the introduction of the "bare bones" Keystone. < Though not showing on the Red Caboose web site at present, I have seen these in hobby shops:> < "Calendar Numbers"> That works! < "Don't Stand Me Still" <---I think I saw a post-WWII reference for this one.> If they did this slogan on a standard X-29 then I would love to see photo evidence of it as this was introduced on the X-29D rebuild program in 1954 (see my Mainline Modeler article) so how it would end up on a Red Caboose X-29? SHOW ME THE PHOTO's! BTW I understand that the old Front Range dies are being reworked by Red Caboose and the underframe is to be corrected as well as other things and I trying to get hem to add the post 1952 Murphy diagonal panel roof with the overhang on the sides and end. RC has covered most and the different side sheathing too. My brother Ed is doing very comprehensive research on the X-29 that will likely dwarf my past efforts in Mainline. I have identified 3 different underframe drawings and I think his research has found evidence of more based on a few different X-29's that he and Mark Kirlick and Mike Bradley have found and are photoing now. They have taken several rolls of film on just the underframe. It is a couple of ex--mail service/passenger X-29's now in work service. Now if we preserve anything we need to preserve these 2 cars. 2 of over 21,000! Are/were there other prototype schemes? Jerry, just scan through the Morning Sun books and you will be surprised at was is out there. Greg Martin Watching from LINES way out WEST ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 23:45:23 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 1000 PRR F3A's Hey yuze gize, I got my first look at the F-3A by our favorite, Life Like. I cannot believe the level of detail available in that price range (I found them at $39.95 -- no tax in Oregon). The detail was very nice not overstated and the chicken wire is tops. I hate the pilot and number boards they are wrong and no one has mentioned it. But, the good news for us SPF's they need to be changed out anyway. Beside that the truck journal may appear to be wrong but there is a good picture by the late Jack Hahn Jr. in NOV/DEC `93 issue of Diesel Era of 9500A & 9507A that gives us a good excuse to have a pair. The upgrades are simple, the cost is reasonable, the question is what is the best price? Anyone know what M. B. Klein selling them for? Well, I think I talked myself into a set knowing that it may be a variation to difficult to duplicate even with the new INTERMOUNTAIN and ATHEARN / HIGHLINER coming out. And I have heard that Stewart is talking of rerunning his, no that I do not understand, the KATO drive is not that good! Remember to that most of these early F-3's were of the road as trade-in's in 1962. Greg Martin ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 01:25:41 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X29 Variants Tom and all, A couple of corrections. In a message dated 10/3/98 3:29:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time, LINESWEST@aol.com writes: << Some of these may be more applicable to the X-29B rebuilds (with new 10' high steel bodies between 1948 and 1954 that updated these boxes to the 1944 AAR standards.>> The interior heights were 10' 6". << Greg Martin has a story in the November 1992 Mainline Modeler about using the McKean kit for an X-29B but also notes that there was a Sunshine resin kit offered. In the December 1992 MM is a prototype story on the X-29B with a drawing of the original Merchandise Service scheme, Circle Keystone with Aluminum stripe outlined in white by Robert Hundman>> I think that the underframe drawings are wrong ( I need to recheck them) as they show the "UN-rebuilt" underframe and my directions for the underframe are correct, but I have never examined the Sunshine underframe so I dare not comment but it may be wrong. Also Martin Loftin and I disagree on the roof (at least in the beginning of the production) but my efforts were supported by Richard Burg, these cars went into production at the same time as the X-26C. << "Railway Express Agency,": "Buy War Bonds" and the simple Roadname only steam- era scheme definitely. The war didn't start until December 1941 so any wartime propaganda would be 1942 or later. 1942 and early 1943 would be the time for this scheme to be shiny.>> There were three Merchandise Service schemes. The aforementioned "Circle Keystone with Aluminum stripe began in 1948. This was later simplified by painting the stripe all white. In 1954 when the Shadow Keystone was adopted, the stripe became all white and was broken for the shadow keystone with the break in the stripe matching the sides of the keystone. The PRR Compendium shows this scheme for the X-26C, X29, X-29B, X40B and X41B and for the X29. This lasted from 1954 until the service fizzled out sometime about 1958. Roadname only pre-1927 Roadname underline 1927-1947 Circle Keystone in effect (generally) 1947-1954.>> The "Keystone on/in the Ball" (circle keystone? Were is the circle, it is a white ball!) emblem/herald appeared in May of 1931. << Shadow Keystone in effect (generally) 1954-1961 1954-1960 Roadname spelled out on car side at opposite end from herald and Pennsy-style car data 1960-1961 Reporting marks on car side at opposite end from herald, AAR-style car data. Railway Express Agency, according to PRR Color Guide Vol. 1 were more than 1,200 X29 and X29A boxes rebuilt for headend service between 1924-1934. 1924-1947 Steam-era scheme, lettering of roadname and REA name only. 1947-1954 Circle Keystone painted above REA name PRR compendium shows no post 1954 REA scheme. Lines West Forever! Tom V. >> Greg Martin Watching from LINES way out WEST forever too! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] RailFest & BP20's Date: Sun, 4 Oct 98 10:33:15 -0400 From: Jerry RailFest report: Seemed like lower attendence than last year. Was colder...high 50's. Rained lightly most of the afternoon. PSU lost. More rail traffic than last year...tons of it! Nice to have 22 for dinner at Hoss's...and Carl arranged a birthday cake for my daughter Ashley...many thanks. I had the Miracle Castings BP20 shell on hand for review. I'll comment on details vs. photos in a later post, but I'd appreciate it if those who handled it yesterday would chime in with their impressions. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cschlund@sfsu.edu Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 19:40:05 Subject: Re: [PRR] BM-60's Hi everyone, With respect to the BM-60 class, Andy wrote: > I do know that they ran on the LIRR as well. I think > I have a photo of one on > the LI in the 50s. I have never found any > record of their presence on the PRR > in any era I am interested in. The PRR > either sold them all early or only built > them for its affiliates. This topic was discussed some time back on the Passenger Car List. Here is what I wrote at the time - basically, I agree with Andy's statement. I'll add that I do know that two BM-60 cars were built for the LIRR. There was a photo of one of these cars (in MTA paint, in work service) in a back issue of MR. Sorry, I don't recall which issue. > Hi Jim & PCL list members, > > Jim wrote: > > > > I model N&W. Most of their early steel cars were > > built by Bethlehem. Some > > of these designs were similar and/or shared with PRR. The backbone of > > their coach fleet was the Pg coaches, several of which were sold to PRR > > prior to the 1964(?) World's Fair. > > > > So I would be interested in any N&W models that might be produced. > > > > Jim Brewer > You are absolutely correct on this "cross-polination" > which occured with the PRR and the N&W. One odd example which > comes to my mind right off is the PRR class MB-60. This was a 60-foot > head-end car with a 15-foot mail section, the > remainder was a baggage/express section. It was basically > a small modification on the PRR class B60 > design, adding a mail section to what was PRR's standard > baggage/express car. Odd part is, although the BM60 was a > PRR design, seemingly none were ever built for the PRR. Instead, > two were built for subsidiary LIRR and an unknown number were > built by or for the N&W! The "N&W Handbook" by Wiley > shows a photo of N&W 1429, class MS3, which was probably > one of these cars. - Claus -------------------------***{}***------------------------- Claus Schlund (Shop Foreman, Bernal Heights Car & Foundry) Modeling steam-era PRR in N scale - San Francisco, CA Interested in BHC&F products? Check out our no-longer-one-and-only N scale passenger car kit at http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~cschlund/models/pullman.gif ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Subscription Cleanup Date: Sun, 4 Oct 98 10:26:45 -0400 From: Jerry On 10/3/98 1:44 PM, Hank Mummert (bubbles@visi.net) wrote: >Could not deliver message (ID=223577) to remote account >'Richard.Tower@ibm.net'. >Remote server returned error: 550 Mailbox not found (user unknown). Richard Tower has been removed from the list subscription database. His (prior) server may have been reposting his messages to the senders or CC'ers. Stan (of RailPix) has also been removed. His server is now returning "user unknown". I have removed a few other subscribers who are constantly returning "mailbox full" messages. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 15:08:54 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X 29 paint and lettering The Circle Keystone logo was used from Jan. 1. 1930 through Jan. 1, 1954 when it was replaced with the shadow Keystone. The shadow Keystone was used until Sept. 1961 when it was replaced by the plain Keystone. For a complete history of PRR freight car painting schemes and variations of the major schemes see the Summer 1988 edition of The Keystone. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] X 29 paint and lettering Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 09:15:00 -0700 I am not an expert but I would like to question the dates of 1947-1954 for the ball (circle) keystone on X 29 boxcars. Are you speaking of just X-29 cars or all cars. If memory serves I have read literature and viewed videos of cars as early as the 1930s with the ball keystone. Could you please clarify and possibly support your statement with your sources. Certainly by the early 1940s the ball keystone was very common. In fact so common you rarely see a car without it. Thanks, Greg Stone PRRTHS member interest in the P&E/PRR Renovo Yards ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 18:08:57 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Boxcar Lettering Greg, Tom, and others, Can you help me out. I see some dates that I think are different from Brady McGuire's Keystone article on PRR boxcar lettering (Vol. 21 no. 2, Summer 1988). Any research that alters these application dates interests me for three reasons: 1. I use that article for general reference constantly, and have assumed it's correct. 2. Some of the photos used as database for that article are mine, and I'm interested in any errors we may have introduced, and 3. I'm currently trying to write a similar article on phases as applied to the PRR covered hopper. For all those reasons, I'm vitally interested in correcting/extending this info. And one of the things that Brady points out in his article is that the dates offered were based on a finite group of pictures he had studied, so they are subject to change based on new info. > << "Railway Express Agency," Brady shows 1930-1954, in other words, the whole circle keystone era. I can add that what pictures I've seen were always the same Roman typeface, as an obvious addition to the CK scheme. > There were three Merchandise Service schemes. The aforementioned "Circle > Keystone with Aluminum stripe" began in 1948. Brady dates MS1 9/1947 to 1/1950, but qualifies the 1/1951 enddate with a question mark. >This was later simplified by > painting the stripe all white. Brady dates MS2 1/50 to 5/1954. >In 1954 when the Shadow Keystone was > adopted, > the stripe became all white and was broken for the shadow keystone with the > break in the stripe matching the sides of the keystone. The PRR Compendium > shows this scheme for the X-26C, X29, X-29B, X40B and X41B and for the X29. > This lasted from 1954 until the service fizzled out sometime about 1958. Agrees with Brady's 5/1954-11/57? > Now I believe you move to the regular lettering schemes. Brady's observations start with four different lettering layouts which preceded standard use of the circle keystone (CK) in 1930. These "No Keystone" phases were: NK1 1875-1896 P.R.R. with periods NK2 1898-1906 P.R.R. and PENNSYLVANIA (the latter underlined with a bar) NK3 4/1906-4/1926 PENNSYLVANIA over bar over number NK4 4/1926-1/1930 bar over PENNSYLVANIA over number over bar CK 1/1930-1/1954 just add a circle keystone to NK4 Maybe it's an obvious point, but the lettering style in the CK scheme is exactly the same as NK2 through NK4 (I'm not positive about NK1). Thus, decals for CK can be used for most earlier paint schemes, too. Talk about tradition - much of the lettering on a 1953 car could have used 1906 stencils! So: > Roadname only pre-1927 ?? > Roadname underline 1927-1947 really, underlined in NK2 and NK3 thus 1906-1926 > Circle Keystone in effect (generally) 1947-1954.>> CK starts 1930, goes unchanged at least through 1953 > The "Keystone on/in the Ball" (circle keystone? Were is the circle, it is > a white ball!) emblem/herald appeared in May of 1931. CK starts 1930, goes unchanged to 1954 > > << Shadow Keystone in effect (generally) 1954-1961 > 1954-1960 Roadname spelled out on car side at opposite end from herald and > Pennsy-style car data Yes. Used in SK1a, SK1b, SK2a, and SK2b from 2/1954 to 6/1961. Note that SK1a (2/1954-6/1954) used the "calendar script" style numbers. The tiny order of X48's (only PS-1's the Pennsy bought) came in SK1a. SK1b (used a more familiar serifed number. Both SK1a and SK1b distributed data in horizontal lines along the lower side of the car. BTW, this was about as far away from recommended AAR practice as you could get, but the Pennsy got away with it for almost 4 years, and in a period when masses of new cars and rebuilds joined the fleet. > 1960-1961 Reporting marks on car side at opposite end from herald, AAR- > style car data. SK2a 11/1957-6/1960 serif-style PRR & numbers SK2b 6/1960-6/1961 plain-style PRR & numbers (actually, these look like a reprise of Futura lettering to me). Besides (for the first time in many years) using "PRR" for the reporting mark on the side of the car, the SK2a and SK2b stack data vertically again. > > Railway Express Agency, according to PRR Color Guide Vol. 1 were more than > 1,200 X29 and X29A boxes rebuilt for headend service between 1924-1934. > 1924-1947 Steam-era scheme, lettering of roadname and REA name only. Suggests that "Railway Express Agency" markings preceded the 1930 advent of CK. Can we verify? The color guide caption says only that this is a pre-1954 marking. > 1947-1954 Circle Keystone painted above REA name Seems strange that circle keystone joined the REA name 17 years after its application to other equipment. OTOH, this is passenger equipment, so practice may vary from freight equipment. Can we verify? > PRR compendium shows no post 1954 REA scheme. >From what I've observed, the post-1954 paint was the same as for freight cars, except that the car number continued to be 4-digit. For boxcars OR cabooses, this is still a dead giveaway that the bearer is in REA/express/passenger service. One interesting exception to the "same as" rule is that this "passenger" scheme often omitted some or all of the dimensional data. And in at least one case (PRR 4892, shown on p75 of PRR Color Guide Vol. 1), the car is obviously painted with an SK2b stencil (futura PRR and 4892), but omits not only the dimensional data under the shaded keystone, but also the large PENNSYLVANIA that normally appears to the left of the door. > > Lines West Forever! > Tom V. >> > > Greg Martin Watching from LINES way out WEST forever too! > And one more question -- What the hell are us three LWFs (Lines West Fans) doing hashing this out:? May your cars always be accurately lettered, and may the SOBs that know the difference keep quiet when they visit. Rick Tipton - hiding out from the prototype police in Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 18:08:52 EDT Subject: [PRR] Don't Stand Me Still in white? In a message dated 10/4/98 1:01:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes: > > < "Don't Stand Me Still" <---I think I saw a post-WWII reference for > this one.> > > If they did this slogan on a standard X-29 then I would love to see photo > evidence of it as this was introduced on the X-29D rebuild program in 1954 > (see my Mainline Modeler article) so how it would end up on a Red Caboose > X-29? SHOW ME THE PHOTO's! "Don't Stand Me Still" as I understand was used ONLY on 500 X29D's rebuilt in August 1955. The slogan was an addition to the standard SK1b lettering in use then. The way Brady McGuire's boxcar lettering article (Summer 1988 Keystone) puts this, there is an implication that this may not have been all the X29D's rebuilt that month. Any materials I might have buried away (especially slides) will be in agreement with this, as they were part of Brady's research for the article. One question it would be nice to bury: what color was this slogan? My slides all look white, but these are pictures taken after 20 years of weathering. Color Guide Vol.1 shows white on 24270 (p73). Varney and Bev Bel chose to render it in white. But MDC's #1042 boxcar has it in yellow, and I've heard people argue it both ways. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Pennsy E unit? Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 20:34:08 -0700 I just read in Railpace that the restored Lackawanna E units are from Pennsy origin. What is the original road of the E units that head the Conrail "inspection" train? Greg Stone PRRTHS member interest in Renovo Yards ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 21:13:53 -0500 From: Bob Poortinga Subject: Re: [PRR] Subscription Cleanup On Sun, Oct 04, 1998 at 10:26:45AM -0400, Jerry wrote: > Return-Path: > From: Jerry > To: "PRR-Talk" > Sender: > Richard Tower has been removed from the list subscription database. His > (prior) server may have been reposting his messages to the senders or > CC'ers. Jerry, Many mail systems will bounce undeliverable messages back to the address in the Return-Path: header. Since you have configured your listserv software to use PRR-Talk@dsop.com as the Return-Path, bounces will be sent to the list. Use an address like for the return path. If this is not a configuration option, get better listserv software. There are MANY things that LetterRip does that do NOT comply with the applicable RFCs. -- Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) Network Admin Technology Service Corp. Bloomington, Indiana USA ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 23:12:45 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Box Car Lettering Schemes To All, The very best single source for P.R.R. Box Car Lettering schemes is without a doubt the article written by Mr. Brady McGuire for the Summer 1988 KEYSTONE Volume 21 Number 2. The article's title is Lettering Schemes for PRR Boxcars 1876 to 1968. Thirty-five very readable pages. This article is most certainly a "must have" for all serious Pennsylvania Railroad fans. I don't believe this issue is currently available through PRRT&HS , but it should be. This is the kind of stuff people join the PRRT&HS for. We all might invite Mr. McGuire to write a condensed overview of PRR Box Car Lettering Schemes that could be placed on line. This then would allow access to anyone who might be interested. This is what internet users are looking for! If Mr. McGuire agrees then we will all get closer to our goal of sharing and learning from one another here on PRR-Talk. (My own two cents worth) Ed Martin "a graduate of the Joe Jack school of driving" ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Pennsygg1@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 21:49:06 EDT Subject: [PRR] LIRR Any Long Island Island Railroad fans out there? Would love to hear from anyone. Though the PRR is still the best! Thanks, Michael Capone ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 23:03:15 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Attention Lines West Fans I was at a swap meet over the weekend in cheese head state and I made what I thought was a very interesting purchase. It was a book titled `THE PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD CLEVELAND DOCKS'. The book was published in 1946 in connection with the PRR Centennial and the city of Cleveland Sesquicentennial. It is a thirty one page book describing the history of the docks in Cleveland and has some pretty good pictures in it. It has a centerspread overall of the docks and talks about the docks in general. I find it amazing that there seems to be so much information on the PRR and the places you can find it even up here in cheesehead territory. Randy (BTW Ohio State 28 Penn St. 9) Still a Buckeye at heart ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Buy War Bonds Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 20:37:27 -0700 Has anyone ever seen a photo of the BUY WAR BONDS slogan painted on H21 or H25 Hoppers? Did it occur. Does anyone know all the different cars this slogan was painted on. I can think of N5 cabin cars and H31 hoppers. Greg Stone PRRTHS member interest in Renovo Yards ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 02:18:03 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Boxcar Lettering Hey yuze gize, This is all very technical, and interesting. Here's some thoughts; >CK starts 1930, goes unchanged at least through 1953 >> The "Keystone on/in the Ball" (circle keystone? Were is the circle, it is >> a white ball!) emblem/herald appeared in May of 1931. >CK starts 1930, goes unchanged to 1954< I suppose that I should have been more specific and said the Final Keystone on/in the Ball as we recognize it appeared in May of 1931. (a 28" white ball with a 21" keystone in it) The emblems prior were of a different size and rendered unusable per Brady's article. I must say that I think that Brady McGuire's article is the standard we model by, and has got to be the most comprehensive study to date. I have two complaints: 1) I wish the article was more public, and more available to more modelers in all scales. It would certainly make my job easier in persuading Micro Scale to produce a complete series of Pennsy decals in all scales and there by reaching more modelers. 2) Brady, I wished you would not have coined the White Ball with the keystone inside the "Circle keystone or CK scheme." It might have been for simplicity and a silly thing but I will always reserve the "Circle keystone" for the Sharknose diesels. So I will continue to refer to it as the "Keystone on the Ball" because by God I feel this railroad was certainly "on the BALL" Greg Martin Watching from LINES way out WEST! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Box Car Lettering Schemes Date: Mon, 5 Oct 98 05:11:56 -0400 From: Jerry On 10/4/98 11:12 PM, ELM2@aol.com (ELM2@aol.com) wrote: > I don't believe this issue is currently available through PRRT&HS , >but it should be. This is the kind of stuff people join the PRRT&HS for. > We all might invite Mr. McGuire to write a condensed overview of >PRR >Box Car Lettering Schemes that could be placed on line. This then would allow >access to anyone who might be interested. This is what internet users are >looking for! If Mr. McGuire agrees then we will all get closer to our goal of >sharing and learning from one another here on PRR-Talk. (My own two cents >worth) Brady is on this list. As with a China article I am doing so with, with his permission, we could post the article on "Keystone Crossings". What do you say, Brady? ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Subscription Cleanup Date: Mon, 5 Oct 98 05:10:24 -0400 From: Jerry On 10/4/98 10:13 PM, Bob Poortinga (bobp@tsc.com) wrote: >Many mail systems will bounce undeliverable messages back to the address >in the Return-Path: header. Since you have configured your listserv software >to use PRR-Talk@dsop.com as the Return-Path, bounces will be sent to the >list. > >Use an address like for the return path. If this >is not a configuration option, get better listserv software. There are MANY >things that LetterRip does that do NOT comply with the applicable RFCs. You are correct about how the return path of the list mail "appears". It is programmed to determine if an incoming post is a bounce, or even a list command. It normally weeds them out just fine. Something about this particular post made it appear legit. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 06:26:09 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] More antique reporting marks My guesses on the new list of reporting marks. This time, I'm not assuming 1904. As before XX:YYY means Valuation Report Vol. XX, pg YYY CL&N Cincinnati Lebanon & Northern 23:799 Incorporated 1885 (PRR sub) M&C Middletown & Cincinnati Railway 23:799 Incorporated 1890 Reorganized 1894 as Middletown & Cincinnati Railroad Sold to CL&N 1902 ** OR ** Moshannon & Clearfield 22:283 Incorporated 1880 Merged into Tyrone & Clearfield 1884 ** OR ** Marietta & Cincinnati (B&O sub) 42:465 Incorporated 1845 as Belpre & Cincinnati Renamed Marietta & Cincinnati 1851 Entered receivership 1858 Reorganizd 1860 Sold to: Cincinnati Washington & Baltimore 1882 DL&CRR&T Dayton Lebanon & Cincinnati RR and Terminal Co. 23:799 Incorporated 1907 Sold to CL&N 1915 LMRR ? Little Miami RR ? (? Narrow Gauge ?) D&W ? Defiance & Western ? C&X ? Cincinnati & Xenia ? CC&IC R&C Ridgway & Clearfield 22:281 Incorporated 1882 merged into PRR 1911 StLC&P StL&TH ? St Louis & Terre Haute ? JM&I ? Jeffersonville Madison & Indianapolis ? TH&P ? Terre Haute & Princeton ? VRR Vandalia RR I&F ? Indianapolis & Frankfort ? CI LA&S Lorain Ashland & Southern 23:840 Incorporated 1910 Consolidated 1913 with Ashland & Western to form a new Lorain Ashland & Southern DT&I Detroit Toldeo & Ironton P&E Philadelphia & Erie 22:282 Incorporated 1837 as Sunbury & Erie Name changed to P&E 1861 Merged into PRR 1907 W&WRR Washington & Waynesburg (narrow gauge) OR&W Ohio River & Western (? narrow gauge ?) VGN Virginian Railway CN&StL ACL Atlantic Coast Line B&M Boston & Maine ** AND ** (briefly) Brookville and Mahoning Re-named Pittsburg & Shawmut (to avoid conflict) NYNH&H New York, New Haven & Hartford (the New Haven) CIL Chicago, Indianapolis & Louisville (the Monon) TDC&StL ? Toledo Delphos Cincinnati & St Louis ? (? narrow Gauge ?) MR&LE ? Miami River & Lake Erie ? A&GW Atlantic & Great Western (Erie) CORR Central Ohio RR 42:270 Incorporated 1847 Reorganized 1865 Conveyed to B&O 1915 === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Old Keystone Articles Date: Mon, 5 Oct 98 10:33:40 -0400 From: Jerry I have a query in to Chuck Blardone regarding articles contained within out-of-print issues of The Keystone. (Obviously, the PRRT&HS needs to maintain its source of income from back issues it can still sell.) My question was, on a case-by-case basis, if "Keystone Crossings" can reprint articles in their entirety if a) The PRRT&HS approves; b) the original author approves; and c) proper credit is given. This sounds like a reasonable request. We'll have to wait and see what their response is. I believe that "a" will be the hardest to attain. Obviously "c" is a no-brainer! BTW: I've BCC'd this to Chuck so he realizes there is a widesread discussion on the matter. Chuck: The immediate need is an article on freight car lettering by Brady McQuire that appeared in an out-of-print issue. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy E unit? Date: Mon, 05 Oct 98 10:22:18 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Two of the CR executive units are PRR and one is Erie Lackawanna. Also, one of the two restored "Erie" E8's here in NJ is also a PRR unit! (The other is a NYC unit) Somewhere I have the PRR number for the one that's painted up Erie. Does anyone know the PRR numbers for the CR units and the Lackawanna ones? There's at least 5 PRR E8's still running around and not one in PRR paint! (The PRR painted pair isn't running right now and I hear that one of the units may be repainted out of the PRR scheme :( ) Thanks, Rob I just read in Railpace that the restored Lackawanna E units are from Pennsy origin. What is the original road of the E units that head the Conrail "inspection" train? Greg Stone PRRTHS member interest in Renovo Yards ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 10:49:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Old Keystone Articles > My question was, on a case-by-case basis, if "Keystone Crossings" can > reprint articles in their entirety if > a) The PRRT&HS approves; > b) the original author approves; and > c) proper credit is given. > > This sounds like a reasonable request. We'll have to wait and see what > their response is. I believe that "a" will be the hardest to attain. > Obviously "c" is a no-brainer! Well, here's the question: PRRTHS does not pay for submissions; Is there any provision which requires authors to relinquish copyright to PRRTHS for items to be published in the Keystone? I don't know, but the answer is likely "no", in which case if you get the article from the author as opposed to copying it from the Keystone, a becomes irrelevant; At that point you need permission only from the holder of the copyright on the material itself, that being the author (and anyone whose photographs or whatever he may have used, but in the case of paint schemes most likely if you can't get that or if PRRTHS photos were used they can presumably be replaced). Don't get me wrong, a) I love the Keystone and b) I'm not out to kill PRRTHS by any means but acquiring back issues of any sizeable number of Keystones direct from PRRTHS is out of my price range, at least for now. In some cases reproduced material will likely by my only option at least for the near future; If not that, nothing, I suppose. -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 10:08:40 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Box Car Lettering Schemes In a message dated 10/4/98 11:57:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ELM2@aol.com writes: > To All, > The very best single source for P.R.R. Box Car Lettering schemes is > without a doubt the article written by Mr. Brady McGuire for the Summer 1988 > KEYSTONE Volume 21 Number 2. The article's title is Lettering Schemes for > PRR > Boxcars 1876 to 1968. Thirty-five very readable pages. This article is most > certainly a "must have" for all serious Pennsylvania Railroad fans. > I don't believe this issue is currently available through PRRT&HS , > > but it should be. This is the kind of stuff people join the PRRT&HS for. > We all might invite Mr. McGuire to write a condensed overview of > PRR > Box Car Lettering Schemes that could be placed on line. This then would > allow > access to anyone who might be interested. This is what internet users are > looking for! If Mr. McGuire agrees then we will all get closer to our goal > of > sharing and learning from one another here on PRR-Talk. (My own two cents > worth) > Ed Martin "a graduate of the Joe Jack school of driving" Ed, I've sent this message along to Brady. Ideally, the article itself is best because of all the pictures and additional info it contains. But a digest for PRR-Talk or posted on Keystone Crossings or Rob Schoenberg's freight car site is a good idea. Until that happens, I tried to be accurate when quoting Brady's article in my message of yesterday. Do I need to re-edit that as a stopgap? Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings" Vol. III Date: Mon, 5 Oct 98 11:08:06 -0400 From: Jerry The third volume of "Excerpts from 'Keystone Crossings'" will ship November 1. For those unfamiliar, this is a multi-platform CD-ROM containing many of the larger files from "Keystone Crossings". By having it on CD, you'll eliminate long download times AND solve long-term storage problems for these sizable files. Unless otherwise specified, the only software needed to use these files are your normal Internet browser or Adobe Acrobat Reader (included). The price is $30, inclusive of shipping. You may order Volume II with Volume III for only $25 more. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/ for complete ordering information. Proceeds benefit operation of the DSOP.COM lists and the PENNSYRR.COM web sites. The "highlight" of this release is that it includes a complete set of CT1000's for 1945!!! Here is the complete index: * Form CT1000E, List of Stations and Sidings and Instructions for Making Reports to the Superintendent Car Service (11.2MB, PDF), Nov. 1, 1945. * Form CT1000C, List of Stations and Sidings and Instructions for Making Reports to the Superintendent Car Service, May 1, 1945. (9.8MB, PDF) * Form CT1000W, List of Stations and Sidings and Instructions for Making Reports to the Superintendent Car Service, May 1, 1945. (6.2MB, PDF) * Annual Report, 1950. (2.6MB, PDF). * Annual Report, 1954. (9.2MB, PDF). * Employee Timetable, Philadelphia Division (3.3MB, PDF), April 25, 1954. * 1936, Nov. 29: Form 19 Timetable (2.6MB, PDF) - (South and West) New England, New York and The West -- Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington, Richmond. * 1938, Sept. 25: Form 55 Timetable (381K, PDF) - (Express Trains) New York, Philadelphia, Harrisburg, Altoona, Johnstown, Pittsburgh. * 1954, Dec. 17: Form 1 Timetable (6.4MB, PDF) - (Main east-west timetable.) * Excerpts from 1953, Jan.: Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment (873K, PDF) - Lists all equipment in PRR passenger service as of date. * Map: Harrisburg, Pa.: Retirement of 14,400 Lin. Ft. of Track Including 37 Turnouts and Two Crossing Frog at "Harris" and "State" Interlockings (673K). Nov. 1964; revised to Nov. 1965. Similar to "valuation" style maps, this highly detailed map -- in 1" = 200' scale -- shows all original trackage and structures as of the 1937 electrification (I beleive) and indicates the first trackage to be removed in the mid-1960's. Extends from Dock Street to the south, through the coach yards, freight houses, REA area, the station, to the throat of the locomotive terminal to the north. A "must have" for the Harrisburg modeler! Original for scanning provided by the Harrisburg Chapter of the NRHS. Also includes a hi-res, 300-dpi, version (141MB, EPS). * Traffic Density Map, June 1948, showing average daily loads between principal points for Philadelphia to Altoona (547K, JPEG) and Altoona to Columbus/Toledo (674K, JPEG). * Plan 7513, Eastern Region, Eastern Penna. Division, Philadelphia Division Detour Map (639K, JPEG), Nov 24, 1948. This 22" by 36" map shows the "Detour Routes in Case of Emergency" dispatchers would use. It also indicates engine restrictions on these routes based on curvature, weight, and clearance. Detail of numerous junctions is provided, as are connections with other railroads. * Map illustrating General Order No. 805, Zone C (255K, JPEG). Army and Navy Football Game Facilities, Municipal Stadium, Philadelphia, Pa., Saturday Only Nov. 27 1954. Diagram showing switches, signals & information for one time event. This is the temporary setup that inspired the famous Grif Teller calendar painting. * Track Chart, Northern Central Railway, York to Parkton (689K, JPEG), Nov. 1954. Just after mainline was reduced to single track. Includes signals, but does not include grades or curvatures. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Old Keystone Articles Date: Mon, 05 Oct 98 10:57:20 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Hey, what about the PRRT&HS web site?! Seems to me that it would be the logical place for Keystone article reprints! Actually I wish the society would release a collection of out of print Keystones on CD-Rom. The Philla chapter is working on this for its magazine! Rob I have a query in to Chuck Blardone regarding articles contained within out-of-print issues of The Keystone. (Obviously, the PRRT&HS needs to maintain its source of income from back issues it can still sell.) My question was, on a case-by-case basis, if "Keystone Crossings" can reprint articles in their entirety if a) The PRRT&HS approves; b) the original author approves; and c) proper credit is given. This sounds like a reasonable request. We'll have to wait and see what their response is. I believe that "a" will be the hardest to attain. Obviously "c" is a no-brainer! BTW: I've BCC'd this to Chuck so he realizes there is a widesread discussion on the matter. Chuck: The immediate need is an article on freight car lettering by Brady McQuire that appeared in an out-of-print issue. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 23:43:53 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Old Keystone Articles WAIT! Derrick and all, If any article was published in the KEYSTONE it is off limits to republish anywhere without the written permission of the PRRT&HS. That only means that it needs their permission no that it has not or cannot be done in the past or in the future, but what is the point of reprinting what is already been done. The point is that the article could be done again by another or the original author as long as it is different from the first. Perhaps there is more information available today then in 1988 to update or correct any part of the article. Maybe the amount of information could make the "next" article more in-depth than the last, more picture, more discussion, corrections to dates, or anything that would make it sufficiently different from the first. I think it could be rewritten in a more "public" forum that hold the respect of the first. We need to explore that possibility, not to mirror the first but to expand it with more examples in photographs and perhaps drawings. This information should not be for the members of the THS only we need to provide this information to anyone interest in the "Standard Railroad of the World." And what a better man to do this than the man that did it in the first place. Greg Martin Watching from LINES way out WEST ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Re: Old Keystone Articles Date: Mon, 5 Oct 98 21:23:07 -0400 From: Jerry The answer we expected.... On 10/5/98 9:16 PM, Charles Blardone, Jr. (xxxxxxxxxxxxxx) wrote: >I'll bring up your reprint question at the PRRT&HS Board meeting on >October 17 and will pass along the decision to you shortly thereafter. I >doubt that the answer will be in the affirmative. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 19:33:21 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Old Keystone Articles In a message dated 10/5/98 10:28:14 AM Central Daylight Time, robs@gatefield.com writes: << Actually I wish the society would release a collection of out of print Keystones on CD-Rom. >> Yeah, I had suggested this to Trains magazine as well--it is a major undertaking, but I think it would be a good idea. Danger is the obsolescence of the storage medium. Wanna buy any 5" floppies or 8-tracks? Problem with print medium is mainly mildew, from my observation. And I read somewhere that VHS videotapes have a life of 18 years,so better figure on copying sometime to preserve old memories. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 98 17:54:32 CST Subject: [PRR] Going to the EBT Fall Reunion? Hi, gang, The better to spot fellow SPFers at Orbisonia this coming weekend, I have cobbled together a simple name tag (given my lack of computer skills, I'm surprised it came out at all) which reads "PRR.TALKer." I'll leave them at the registration table at the Lion's Hall. Peel one off and wear it proudly. See you there! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy E unit? Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 17:25:03 -0400 Greg, Here's the lineage of the Conrail E8s as I know it: Locomotive No. 4020 Model E8 built by EMD in 1951 for the PRR and numbered PRR 5809. Locomotive No. 4021 Model E8 built by EMD in 1952 for the PRR and numbered PRR 5711. Locomotive No. 4022 Model E8 built by EMD in 1951 for the Erie Railroad and numbered 833. Jerry Breon -----Original Message----- From: Greg Stone To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, October 05, 1998 1:04 AM Subject: [PRR] Pennsy E unit? >I just read in Railpace that the restored Lackawanna E units are from Pennsy >origin. What is the original road of the E units that head the Conrail >"inspection" train? >Greg Stone >PRRTHS member >interest in Renovo Yards > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] UPDATE: Westerfield Sale Date: Mon, 5 Oct 98 15:57:17 -0400 From: Jerry The "3 for $45" Westerfield sale has caused numerous items to sell out. This is an updated listing of available kits. Please order by part number and confirm description in Walthers catalog (I have some doubts!). The part number will be used in the case of inconsitencies. To recap, now through December 31 (1998), while supplies last, Westerfield kits are available at the unheard of price of "3 for $45". Add $5 per order for shipping. Pa. residents must also add 6% sales tax. Send check payable to "Desktop Solutions" to same at P.O. Box 189, #191; Etters PA 17319-0189. Proceeds benefit operation of the DSOP.COM and PENNSYRR.COM mailing lists and web sites. Thank you for your support 1104 50' A-50-40 Autocar Undec 1250 46' Gondola Undec 1304 36' XL Box PRR/PL <------------------- 1350 36' XL Modern Box Undec 1400 36' BXZ Box Undec 1401 36' Composite Box ATSF 1402 36' Composite Box Undec 1700 B-50-1 Box Car Undec 1703 B-50-1 Box Car Mont&Atl 1704 B-50-1 Box Car CentPac 1705 B-50-1 Box Car Ore&Cal 1706 B-50-1 Box Car Hous&TxCent 1802 40' Harr. R-30 1/2 Rfr PFE Exp Letter 2100 USRA 70T Hopper Undec 2150 Modern 70T Hp Undec 2300 GL Hpper Car Undec 2350 33' GL/GLC Twin Hop GLC Undec 2500 Composite Gondola Undec 2750 Modern RF Reefer Undec 2800 50' SS Auto Car Box Undec 2850 GN 50' SS Box Undec 3000 USRA Steel Autocar Undec 3150 WI - Hopper Undec 3200 H21A - Hopper Undec 3201 H21A - Hopper Pennsylvania <------------------- 3202 H21A - Hopper PRR Clamshell <------------------- 3250 H21A - Hopper Undec 3301 USRA SS Box Car GET data 3308 USRA SS Box Car B&O 3313 USRA SS Box Car GR&I/NYP&N 3450 22' Steel Ore Car Undec 3451 22' Steel Ore Car GN 3452 22' Steel Ore Car YsmtVly&Sierra 3600 BX-3 Box Original Undec 3650 BX-3 Box Modern Undec 3700 IE-X Reefer Undec 3702 40' Composite IE-X ATSF Salt 3803 40' USRA PS Box Boston&Maine 3818 40' USRA Dbl Sheath Box NW Pac 3820 40' USRA Dbl Sheath Box Wabash 4000 Bx-W Box Car Undec 4100 36' Composite Box SU Hutchins 4150 36' Composite Box SU T-Brace Undec 4154 36' Composite Box SU T-Brace M&O 4304 36' Fowler Patent Box GT US Assign 4600 Bx-11 Box Car Undec 4601 40' Bx-11 Box Car ATSF 5201 36' Harriman Stock S-40-4 SP 5300 36' Harriman Stock S-40-5 Undec 6001 40' AC&F reefer Union Refr Trans 6003 40' AC&F reefer Amer Refr Trans 6201 40' X25 steel Auto car PRR <------------------- 6251 40' X25A steel Auto car PRR <------------------- 6401 40' Fowler clone box RI 1913 WSC&F 6403 40' Fowler clone box DRG&W 6463 40' Fowler cln bx DRG&W AB brakes 6501 40' AC&F reefer Amer Refr Trans 6605 40' AC&F reefer type II BPDX Bordens 6609 40' AC&F reefer type II Miller Hi Life 6610 40' AC&F reefer type II Pabst Blue ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Old Keystone Articles Date: Mon, 5 Oct 98 15:47:33 -0400 From: Jerry On 10/5/98 4:43 PM, LINESWEST@aol.com (LINESWEST@aol.com) wrote: > This is where a well-maintained website can be an inducement to join. Key >stories like this could be made available for download by members only >through >a secure FTP site whjch had access limmited to members in good standing. I can do that! But is my site considered "well-maintained"? What would put members in "good standing"? Dues? Dues, perhaps, could be used to purchase archival stuff via eBay for scanning and distribution as well. Sounds like the "cyber chapter" again! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:43:26 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Old Keystone Articles Jerry, This is where a well-maintained website can be an inducement to join. Key stories like this could be made available for download by members only through a secure FTP site whjch had access limmited to members in good standing. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] X29 Variants Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 13:45:25 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell On 3 Oct, LINESWEST@aol.com wrote: > There were three Merchandise Service schemes. The aforementioned "Circle > Keystone with Aluminum stripe began in 1948. The Brady McGuire article states that this scheme was never applied to unrebuilt X29s, so isn't valid for the RC model. > This was later simplified by > painting the stripe all white. In 1954 when the Shadow Keystone was adopted, > the stripe became all white and was broken for the shadow keystone with the > break in the stripe matching the sides of the keystone. The PRR Compendium > shows this scheme for the X26C, X29, X-29B, X40B and X41B and for the X29. > This lasted from 1954 until the service fizzled out sometime about 1958. And then lasted until repaint; some of the photos in PRR Color Guide are later than that, and quite decripit. Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] P1K F3s From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 98 12:29:12 -0400 I saw the P1K F3s Friday. I notice that the PRR units do NOT have the "passenger" pilot. This was a distinctive feature, along with the roof antenna and "nose rings", of almost all PRR F units. Only the first 2 F3s had the freight pilot. Does anyone know if the Highliner dummy shells will come with the correct pilot, and if it will fit on a P1k mechanism? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] P1K F3s Date: Mon, 05 Oct 98 12:40:43 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg The highliner shells will come with the correct pilot! I can't wait! The magazine photos of the Athearn units at the MRIA show show one of the units with the passenger pilot! Hopefully Athearn will even do the PRR units with the correct pilot. I'd guess that it'll probably fit the mechanism. Rob I saw the P1K F3s Friday. I notice that the PRR units do NOT have the "passenger" pilot. This was a distinctive feature, along with the roof antenna and "nose rings", of almost all PRR F units. Only the first 2 F3s had the freight pilot. Does anyone know if the Highliner dummy shells will come with the correct pilot, and if it will fit on a P1k mechanism? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Old Keystone Articles WAIT! Date: Tue, 6 Oct 98 06:17:16 -0400 From: Jerry On 10/5/98 11:43 PM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com (TGREGMRTN@aol.com) wrote: > If any article was published in the KEYSTONE it is off limits to republish >anywhere without the written permission of the PRRT&HS. That only means that >it needs their permission no that it has not or cannot be done in the past or >in the future, but what is the point of reprinting what is already been done. >The point is that the article could be done again by another or the original >author as long as it is different from the first. Perhaps there is more >information available today then in 1988 to update or correct any part of the >article. Maybe the amount of information could make the "next" article more >in-depth than the last, more picture, more discussion, corrections to dates, >or anything that would make it sufficiently different from the first. I >think >it could be rewritten in a more "public" forum that hold the respect of the >first. We need to explore that possibility, not to mirror the first but to >expand it with more examples in photographs and perhaps drawings. This >information should not be for the members of the THS only we need to provide >this information to anyone interest in the "Standard Railroad of the World." >And what a better man to do this than the man that did it in the first place. Greg is correct. The author DOES give the PRRT&HS rights to any material published. I am working on a piece for them and was told so. Here's the loophole: local chapters are always reprinting articles in their newsletters. Just bring up the old idea of a "cyber chapter" and we're in!!! Mark: Did you ever get a copy of the by-laws to see what we need to do to become a chapter? ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 07:45:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Old Keystone Articles WAIT! On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Jerry wrote: > Greg is correct. The author DOES give the PRRT&HS rights to any material > published. I am working on a piece for them and was told so. Well, that covers that. > Here's the loophole: local chapters are always reprinting articles in > their newsletters. Just bring up the old idea of a "cyber chapter" and > we're in!!! Only those of us who are PRRTHS members. Incidentally, I picked up part 2 of the Philadelphia Improvements at the Museum store in Altoona (a reprint, but you get the idea. part 2 is 30th street station) 2 questions: how many parts, and is part 1, or for that matter, any of the rest of the parts, floating around out there for sale? -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 10:16:24 EDT Subject: [PRR] Lettering article solution! Hey yuze Gize, The solution is out there and simple. Write a new article or better yet a book on the subject. I think a book like the type that Withers Publication did on the switcher, ect. would be a good format. The prior books have been in B&W and the original article was in B&W. It might be nice to have some center pages in color. I wouldn't be disappointed if it were done like normal DIESEL ERA, from a paper weight and so forth. What do you say Dan, what would Paul say? Greg Martin ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "tqpj6" Subject: [PRR] empire/union line Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 10:55:30 -0500 What is the differance, era for these designations? thanks walt ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 6 Oct 98 11:54:22 EDT From: Subject: re: [PRR] Lettering article solution! I think this idea has merit. Since you're not limiting yourself to all color (like Vol I & II of PRR Color Guide) you have a lot more material that can be used. Especially to cover the 1930s & 40s. Like Greg said, it could be done in a soft cover format so printing costs (I assume) would be much lower than for a hard bound book. Kris ------------- Original Text From: , on 10/6/98 10:16 AM: Hey yuze Gize, The solution is out there and simple. Write a new article or better yet a book on the subject. I think a book like the type that Withers Publication did on the switcher, ect. would be a good format. The prior books have been in B&W and the original article was in B&W. It might be nice to have some center pages in color. I wouldn't be disappointed if it were done like normal DIESEL ERA, from a paper weight and so forth. What do you say Dan, what would Paul say? Greg Martin ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2098 12:24:08 -0400 From: "dan.cupper" Subject: [PRR] Re: Lettering article solution: a reply [somewhat long] -----Original Message----- From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 11:29 AM Subject: [PRR] Lettering article solution! > The solution is out there and simple. Write a new article or better yet a book on the subject. I think a book like the type that Withers Publication did on the switcher, ect. would be a good format. The prior books have been >in B&W and the original article was in B&W. It might be nice to have some >center pages in color. I wouldn't be disappointed if it were done like normal >DIESEL ERA, from a paper weight and so forth. What do you say Dan, what would >Paul say? > Greg Martin Greetings to Greg and the list: Yes, we'd be interested in looking at any prospective manuscripts, including revised magazine pieces, but the length would have to be there. In other words, to make it worthwhile to go to the expense and effort to publish, it would have to be more than a 12-page or even 32-page piece. As you suggest, an updated, expanded article can turn into a book manuscript - - - we do it all the time at Diesel Era/Withers Publishing. As an aside, it can work both ways: Sometimes an article appears in the magazine and that leads to more information or photos being uncovered, with the result that Paul (Withers) will decide to expand, revise, or correct the copy and repackage it as a book. In other cases, a book-length manuscript will yield enough material that one chapter can be excerpted as a magazine article. A publisher, in order to stay in business, also has to consider how quickly any book might return the cash invested into it, and I'm sure Paul will quickly ask: How many people would buy (fill in the blank with whatever title you might be considering)? He does sell to a lot of hobby shops, so a book on PRR lettering might have some chance of flying. Both Paul and I are PRRT&HS members and have done work for the Society (150th anniversary resource book/bibliography) so we wouldn't want to get into an adversarial position with the organization. But it is correspondingly true that federal copyright law gives ownership of a created work to the author, composer, photographer, or artist at the moment of creation. Unless that person explicitly signs away his or her copyright ownership (or unless he or she is employed to produce such work, in which case the work is understood to be owned by the employer and is called "work made for hire" -- i.e., a newspaper reporter's work belongs to the newspaper as a condition of employment), that ownership remains with him or her. The production forecast for the immediate future at Withers Publishing is extremely heavy, so any new proposals would have to be fairly complete in order to get consideration -- a publisher just doesn't have time to chase down information or photos to fill out a partially completed manuscript, when many others are on the shelf or ready to go in complete form. Coming up soon are several non-PRR works, as well as some PRR books. A book on the GP20/SD24 is about ready to come out, as is a Norfolk Southern roster handbook, and Paul has just placed a hard-cover book manuscript on Kansas City Southern in my lap to edit. More PRR diesel books are in the pipeline (continuing the series begun by the late Jack Hahn), and other PRR titles are under way (think 11kv, for starters) as well. Bottom line to your proposal: the author would have to want to do this, a publisher would have to want to do this. Right now, neither appears to be directly in the loop, but you've made a first step by posting the question. I'll talk to Paul W. and see if there's any interest. Dan managing editor Diesel Era magazine and Withers Publishing Dan Cupper dan@mci2000.com Psalm 84:5 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] RE: Cupper's Comments on a Book Date: Tue, 6 Oct 98 14:48:37 -0400 From: Jerry Dan's remarks on the creation of a new softcover book through Withers makes...dare I say it...tons of sense!!! Personally, the research and writing part of creating a book requires the most time. Time that I do not have. However, if someone (or a committee) can do the research and writing, I would be more than happy to offer production services. That is, the scanning of photos, formatting of text, and layout of text with graphics onto pages. The final product from me would be film negatives of PostScript files, whichever the publisher (Withers) prefers. My time would be free, but the film would have a cost...probably born by the publisher. My current role is as Systems Administrator in a 100-user desktop publishing environment. Just prior to that, I was Director of Publications at a regional, liberal arts college for five and a half years. Food for thought. BTW: WITHOUT a publisher would could create an electronic book in PDF format. More food for thought. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 18:09:03 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] empire/union line In a message dated 10/6/98 12:23:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tqpj6@pty.com writes: > What is the differance, era for these designations? > thanks walt Walt, I think both Empire and Union lines were operating at the same time. I believe the rail historians will tell us these were simply the most visible two of a number of "Fast Freight Lines" who managed carload freight movement across multiple rail lines and sometimes through gage changes even transloading to watercraft. Fast freight lines (FFL's) started up in an era when normal "railroad interchange" often meant loading from car to car (then and now a great way to louse up a shipment). Each fast freight line probably connected a different set of cities, via a different set of railroads. All I know for sure is that both Empire and Union were highly visible FFL's, were associated with the PRR, and had their markings on some PRR standard class box cars in the wood underframe era. But these cars still had PENNSYLVANIA or PRR or P.R.R. reporting marks. Hope somebody in the know bails me out here. Rick Tipton ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:48:19 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Old Keystone Articles WAIT! In a message dated 98-10-06 07:59:22 EDT, shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG writes: << 2 questions: how many parts, and is part 1, or for that matter, any of the rest of the parts, floating around out there for sale? >> Only 2 parts. You can occasionally find them at shows or places like the Museum store. I think they might be available for sale through the PRRT&HS also. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 18:43:23 EDT Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Thoughts Pennsy folks, Just today I got a letter from the folks back in Philley, and that always gets me to thinking about some of those truly good ol' days. The weather here is chilley and cloudy...early October in Minnesota is like Thanksgiving back east, and that doesn't hurt the memory banks either. Most of us can look fondly back on our early lives, and having Pennsy as an intregal part of those memories is something I'll always be grateful for. Getting off the Frankford EL at Berks St. put a guy into a nice veiw of the Pennsy freight house at Front and Berks Streets, and that gritty little yard often had an equally gritty Baldwin burbling around, wrestling X29's about. When I had the time I'd hang around and watch 'em put together a train for Frankford Jct, and that Baldwin would put on a great show running up the viaduct as it headed back toward Airamingo Avenue. Those folks along Trenton Ave had it made, but then ya gotta wonder if most people liked looking out their second floor bedroom window at a freight rumbling by 20 feet away? I sure woulda! On Thanksgiving Day, 1965, my Uncle Joe had to get to the races down at Baltimore. Can't recall which of their tracks was running that time of the year (we'd been to all of 'em that year). He innocently asked if I'd care to come along with him to 30th Street and catch the Congo. He didn't have to ask twice, I'll gurantee! We joined a thronging mob in the huge waiting room, gathered at the top of one of the stairways, and when the train was called there was a semi-stampede down the steps. My uncle was a knowing Pennsy rider, so we disregarded the location signs and headed up the platform toward Zoo. What a mob they had that day. In a couple minutes the headlight showed up...those lovely GG1's were quiet but somehow always rolled in at a speed that made you wonder if he really did plan a Philley stop. But here she came, the G and about 15 fluted cars, with three P70's on the tail. Uncle Joe's instincts were right again and we headed for the tuscan cars at the rear. There was another pushing match to get on (corridor crewmen always seemed scarce at these times), and luckily only a few people tried getting off. I got a seat in the last car, my uncle was a car ahead , but that was Pennsy on a busy day. Made our time perfect, too, and it seemed those GG1's could roll absolutely anything on wheels, and at a lotta speed, too. Baltimore was always a good Pennsy destination, what with an especially classey station and the Chesapeake Resturant just around the corner. And to enjoy something really different, a person could ride the Delaware Park race track trains, with a slug of P70's trailing a G along a branch south of Wilmington that couldn't have seen a whole lotta freight traffic. The train would pull right up to the grandstand, usually right alongside a B&O train from Baltimore, idling behind passenger geeps. Once inside you'd see the passenger crew placing their bets like anyone else, and often as not ready to talk Pennsy between races. Oh man, hand me an Ortliebs and let's do it all over again! But I gotta run for now, hell hardly enough time to work on the layout anymore. But I'm getting warmed up on Pennsy memories now that summer is finally over and I got lots of "em. Talk to ya's later, Pennsy guys. Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 19:23:27 -0400 From: Elliot Fishbein and/or Eileen Kolbasuk Subject: [PRR] LIRR You've found at least one LIRR fan out here, but I will admit it gets kinda lonely. Elliot Fishbein ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: [PRR] PRR Lettering Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 19:28:51 -0500 To all, There was a spiral bound book on the market in 1989 by "The Middle Division" on PRR Freight Car Lettering Arrangements 1954 - 1968. It was a blue book about 10.5 X 17 inches, with a sketch of a X-29 boxcar on the cover. The title of the book is " PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD COMPENDIUM" by George S. Kusner and Nicholas Seman. It is marked vol.1, there is no vol 2 at this time. When vol. 2 is produced it will be for years before 1954, but no date on when that will be a reality. The book consist of actual drawings from the PRR on lettering of there equipment. The tracing number with revision letter, car class, date drawn, and issued date. Bill Knepper boxcar46@nfdc.net ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 20:16:27 -0500 From: "J. R. N. Witmer" Subject: [PRR] Buy War Bonds The PRR applied "Buy War Bonds" slogans to a fair number of X29s. This would not have been a 1941 addition, as we didn't get into the war until December of that year. They did add the slogan to repainted cars in 1942, attested to by a photograph in my collection. I don't know for a fact that the slogan appeared on any other classes except for N5c cabins, but I do have a picture of that, also. Some hopper cars got the "Coal Goes to War" slogan, but not H31s. The PRR built only about 300 of them before wartime steel allocations ended the program. Since the cars that were built were new when the war started and didn't get a repaint until much later, they didn't get "Coal Goes to War." Some of the earlier twin hoppers, such as GLca, as well as some H21s, did receive the coal slogan, but it was not a large-scale, every car repainted program--in 1943, there were something like 38,383 cars in class H21 and 25,551 in class GLa. This points up a fact that we should note when discussing which marking scheme applied to what calendar period--with so many cars to paint, it took years to repaint each car in a class with a changed scheme. As of a certain date in whenever, all the X29s did not get the latest m and confounding those of us who want everything to have a tidy start and finish time. CDS dry transfers, from Canada, has a hopper car set that includes the coal slogan. Captain Jack ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 21:34:47 -0400 From: shazada@mis.net Subject: Re: [PRR] LIRR Elliot Fishbein and/or Eileen Kolbasuk wrote: > > You've found at least one LIRR fan out here, but I will admit it gets kinda > lonely. > > Elliot Fishbein I love and appreciate all things Pennsy (including the DT&I!), and your response got me to thinking. Several years ago I bought some LP's and 45's of steam sounds and one of the 45's is titled "Steel Rails To The Sunrise", the sounds of steam locomotives of the Long Island Railroad. Quite beautiful to listen to. :-) -D -- David Mikulec The DT&I Modelers Page http://DTI.Railfan.net ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 20:55:36 -0500 From: Bob Poortinga Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Lettering article solution: a reply [somewhat long] > From: "dan.cupper" > Subject: [PRR] Re: Lettering article solution: a reply [somewhat long] > Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2098 12:24:08 -0400 ^^^^ I guess Dan must be involved in Y2K testing. -- Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) Bloomington, Indiana USA ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 23:06:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Edward Turner - Atlanta - SSE Subject: Re: [PRR] Old Keystone Articles I have been following this thread throughout the day with great interest. I guess its time to throw in my 2 cents worth - So here goes . . . I see a bigger issue in all of this. I see opportunity. I see the opportunity for the PRRT&HS to more fully expand its appeal. I see the opportunity for the organization to grow its active member roles significantly. And finally, I see the opportunity for the PRRT&HS to secure its future. Where does this opportunity lie - - in Information. Information about freight car lettering, information about P2K F3's, and information about fond memories of Pennsy days gone past. The kind of information that gets passed around via PRR-Talk every day. This information and much, much more is where the opportunities for the future lie. It can get awful lonely when you are trapped below the Mason-Dixon line and you are waiting on your quarterly copy of Keystone to hit the mailbox. There are so many ways that the excellent information presented in past and present Keystone's can be shared. And of course the information does not have to be limited to Keystone articles. Where are the rest of the Society archives? One doesn't have to decide on one method or another - use them all. Let's get some articles reprinted at Kinko's (within copyright laws of course). Let's get that information on the Web and/or on CDs. Get it out there and maybe it will grow. Let folks ponder it, add to it and clarify it for the benefit of all. If the topic grows big enough - publish it. Just get the information out. If the PRRT&HS can make that happen, it will benefit all its members, both near and far, now and in the future. Us folks who are too far away to RailFan old Pennsy haunts in person can still get there from here. The opportunity is there -- will the PRRT&HS take advantage of it? PRRT&HS Member #6408 Regards, Ed -+-+-===-+-+- -+-+-+-+-=====-+-+-+-+- -+-+-===-+-+- | Edward F. Turner, System Support Engineer ed.turner@east.sun.com | + Sun Microsystems, Inc., Enterprise Services Ph 770 360-6466 + | 3655 North Point Parkway, Alpharetta, GA 30005 Fax 770 360-6460 | -+-+-===-+-+- -+-+-+-+-=====-+-+-+-+- -+-+-===-+-+- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 23:31:51 -0400 Subject: [PRR] New Member From: rbreon@juno.com I just returned from Railfest 98 at Altoona as a guest of my brother. Enjoyed the 'Fest and meeting several of the list members. Thought I'd sign up and learn a few things but I don't think I can contribute much. . Roy Breon Pittsford, NY ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 00:26:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Old Keystone Articles Jerry and All, A well maintained site is a must. I'm still not for a cyber chapter. I am and always will be for a free exchange of information and ideas. When I start paying it had better be worth it! Why is it someone is always trying to make a buck off the Pennsylvania Railroad? If we pay to learn what others know or have collected then shouldn't they in turn expect to paid also? (Two more cents worth) ED MARTIN ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 00:10:45 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: [PRR] CDS Pennsy hopper lettering sets Hi All, For those interested the CDS sets for Pennsy hoppers are as follows: CDS# Pennsy Class road # on diagram era 282(a) H21a 677063 '27-late '50s 282(b) H25 727415 '27-early '50s 290 GLa 703452 '27-late '50s 240(a) GLca 250391 circa '42 240(b) GLca 150900 '27-early '50s 665(a) H31b 220873 '42-'60 665(b) H31c 220873 early '50s-late '60s "Coal goes to War" slogan comes with #240(a). "Buy War Bonds" slogan comes with #665(a). I'm assuming, and you know what a risk that is, that more than the illustrated road numbers are available in the transfer sets. CDS has three other sets in the Pennsy section that I am curious about: CDS# company/class road # on diagram era 287 Baker-Whitely Coal Co./GLa 8101 1905 288 Jamison Coal & Coke Co./GLa 109 1905 289 Westmoreland Coal Co.GLa 2132 1914 Westmoreland I've read a little about. Anyone have info on the other two? Disclaimer: The info above is meant to infer no prototype practice but rather is a description of available Pennsy lettering sets, right or wrong, by one supplier. Thanks in advance, Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 04:13:16 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] empire/union line ---RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 10/6/98 12:23:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tqpj6@pty.com > writes: > > > What is the differance, era for these designations? > > thanks walt > Walt, > I think both Empire and Union lines were operating at the same time. > > I believe the rail historians will tell us these were simply the most visible > two of a number of "Fast Freight Lines" who managed carload freight movement > across multiple rail lines and sometimes through gage changes even > transloading to watercraft. Fast freight lines (FFL's) started up in an era > when normal "railroad interchange" often meant loading from car to car (then > and now a great way to louse up a shipment). > > Each fast freight line probably connected a different set of cities, via a > different set of railroads. All I know for sure is that both Empire and Union > were highly visible FFL's, were associated with the PRR, and had their > markings on some PRR standard class box cars in the wood underframe era. But > these cars still had PENNSYLVANIA or PRR or P.R.R. reporting marks. > > Hope somebody in the know bails me out here. > > Rick Tipton > > I believe (and could be quite wromg) that the Union Line was founded in Pittsburg to alleviate the problems caused by the gauge break between the Ohio lines (4' 10") and PRR (4' 8 1/2" (or was it 4' 9"?)). Freight was being unloaded from one set of cars in Allegheny, drayed across the river, loaded into other cars in Pittsburg as it moved from the western lines to the eastern (and similarly going the other way). As you might imagine, that added a considerable delay to transit through Pittsburg. Further, it gave a lot of opporunity for breakage, pilferage, getting rained on, and was a general pain in the behind for shippers. Union Line set out to build and operate cars with so-called "compromise" wheel sets which could operate straight through, without the need to unload\reload at Pittsburg. That may have been the reason for the name "Union", i.e., it unified the previously separated western and eastern lines. Later, when the gauge break was eliminated, the service continued as a "premium" freight line, with presumably closer oversight of shipments, better quality of cars, smarter freight agents, whatever. I believe, but with less certainty, that the Empire Line was associated originally with the Philadelphia and Erie. It differed from the Union Line in that there was no question of dealing with a gauge break. On the other hand, in pre-Union Tank Line days, the Empire Line was pretty heavily into tank cars for petroleum from the oil fields in north-western Pennsylvania rather than general box car traffic. I think John White has this written up in his book on freight cars, but my copy is about 100 miles from here, so I'm going by (shaky) memory. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Shark BP20 Update Date: Wed, 7 Oct 98 08:08:24 -0400 From: Jerry I brought up a few issues with Miracle Castings about their new Shark shells... The decals are not included for two reasons: 1) A true custom decal would be too costly to produce. 2) They used Microscale decals on their own built model, but to import them into Canada cost them over $10 per set! The headlamp bulb is not included. Their comment to my feedback was "As for the light bulb, I think we may be able to do that." Here are their comments on third party details they added: "The model on the web site used Athearn stanchions and ordinary brass wire for the trainphone antennas (we couldn't get commercial ones on time), although we now have Cal-Scale antenna brackets for the next ones we assemble. They are part # 190-412, and are intended for E-Units. You need two packs to do one unit, but three packs will do two units with some left over. The horn was a Grandt Line one, I think. If the customer wants to install the special ugly ladder that was found on the units later in their life, Cal-Scale makes it; part # 190-418 "Ladder Shark Nose". Windshield wipers were from A-Line, part # 29201. As for the chassis, I had a couple of Athearn PA's lying around here, so I cannibalized them for the parts. I have had success ordering PA trucks and parts separately in the past though. I haven't had a look at the Proto 2000 unit yet to see if it can be made compatible. It may require a modified frame, which really wouldn't be that big of a deal. We chose to base it on the Athearn product because there are millions of them out there." On the "B" units: "The master will be done in the next 2 days, and hopefully the mold will be complete by the weekend." "Merchandise Service" will soon be stocking these units, all well as Athearn PA mechanisms. Watch for an announcment. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 04:38:35 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] CDS Pennsy hopper lettering sets ---Ron Dugas wrote: > CDS has three other sets in the Pennsy section that I am curious about: > > CDS# company/class road # on diagram era > > 287 Baker-Whitely Coal Co./GLa 8101 1905 > 288 Jamison Coal & Coke Co./GLa 109 1905 > 289 Westmoreland Coal Co.GLa 2132 1914 > > Westmoreland I've read a little about. Anyone have info on the other > two? Don't know about Barker-Whitely. Jamison was a fairly large operator in Westmoreland (that word again) County Pennsylvania into post-WW 2 days. I'm told the company still exists, but as a real estate broker. (Got that way as the old mine properties, company houses, etc. were being sold off, and stayed as general buyers and sellers of real estate.) The current office is in Greensburg. I think their activities were primarily in the area around there, in Unity and Hempfield townships, in the very northeastern end of the Connellsville-Latrobe coal fields. The "& Coke" may have been more a fond hope than a reflection of their business. They were a bit out of the prime coking coal area. They had a number of hopper cars of the 50 ton two-bay sort. The Greensburg newspaper had an article on the remains of the Jamison interests a few years ago, in which they reproduced a photo of a Jamison car which hangs in the real estate office. Looked a lot like the Westerfield kit, as I recall. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:51:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Old Keystone Articles WAIT! On Mon, 5 Oct 1998 TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > Derrick and all, > If any article was published in the KEYSTONE it is off limits to republish > anywhere without the written permission of the PRRT&HS. That only means that > it needs their permission no that it has not or cannot be done in the past or > in the future, but what is the point of reprinting what is already been done. Guys, my discussion with at least 1 PRRTHS officer indicates that PRRTHS does not take copyright of the articles, but rather leaves that with the authors. But substituting this one minor correction, the remainder of the statement remains true. PErsonally, I think that if the _Keystone_ is reprinted on paper or on CDROM, it should be done by the SOciety directly, and the revenues plowed back thereto. -- Mark D. Bej ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:58:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Old Keystone Articles > Yeah, I had suggested this to Trains magazine as well--it is a major > undertaking, but I think it would be a good idea. Danger is the obsolescence > of the storage medium. Wanna buy any 5" floppies or 8-tracks? Problem with > print medium is mainly mildew, from my observation. And I read somewhere that > VHS videotapes have a life of 18 years,so better figure on copying sometime to > preserve old memories. > > Bob Zoeller Bob's point is well taken. But y'all forget, too, that there are CDs and there are CDs. Everyone out there seems to have this misconception that CDs are indestructible. They _do_ come close, admittedly. The second misconception is that computer CDs last forever. Here they DEFINITELY do not. The misconception probably stems from everyone's experience with _music_ CDs, which are _pressed_ in large quantities. These things are quite permanent. _Some_ computer CDs may be done in this fashion, and here I speak primarily of software titles that are mass produced. Any 'writable' CD, anything you can do at home, is created by a different process. Estimates of readable data life range from 10 to 30 years. (And that assumes that your hardware still works -- and your controller -- and your driver software -- and your operating system -- etc.) This is right now a major issue in the medical device field, where some people with an interest are contending that the statute of limitations "clock" for children does not start until they reach 18 (and usually runs 7 years), meaning that any data obtained must be kept 25 years ... -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:10:40 -0400 (EDT) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] Old Keystone Articles Just a short one! Rob has a point here, but using the beloved PRR as a DIRECT example of this I was watching a documentary about data storage and archival science and they showed a HUGE room filled with computer tapes that had the "corporate records" of the Pennsylvania Railroad on them and NO ONE is able to retreive the data due to the fact that the format and the technology used to create the records is no longer available. This was because the PRR used an proprietary system to make the records that no longer exists. The current forms of electronic archiving are only good until someone comes up with a new technology that renders the archives obsolete. On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Rob Schoenberg wrote: > > Obsolecense and shelf life of the storage medium is a problem with reproducing almost anything. > While paper doesn't become obsolete, most of it does self destruct over time. > With a digital format like CD, you can at least recopy the information to > a newer disk or even a new storage technology without degrading the information. > (This of course assumes that you make the copy before the disk or hardware dies!) > With old books or videotapes every time you make a next generation copy, you > lose quality. Anyway, scanning the information is the hard and time consuming part. > If at some point techology changes, copying the information to the new technology > is (usually) relatively simple. > > Rob > http://prr.railfan.net > > > > > > > >> Yeah, I had suggested this to Trains magazine as well--it is a major > >> undertaking, but I think it would be a good idea. Danger is the obsolescence > >> of the storage medium. Wanna buy any 5" floppies or 8-tracks? Problem with > >> print medium is mainly mildew, from my observation. And I read somewhere that > >> VHS videotapes have a life of 18 years,so better figure on copying sometime to > >> preserve old memories. > >> > >> Bob Zoeller > > > > > >Bob's point is well taken. But y'all forget, too, that there are CDs and > >there are CDs. > > > >Everyone out there seems to have this misconception that CDs are > >indestructible. They _do_ come close, admittedly. > > > >The second misconception is that computer CDs last forever. Here they > >DEFINITELY do not. The misconception probably stems from everyone's > >experience with _music_ CDs, which are _pressed_ in large quantities. > >These things are quite permanent. _Some_ computer CDs may be done in > >this fashion, and here I speak primarily of software titles that are > >mass produced. > > > >Any 'writable' CD, anything you can do at home, is created by a different > >process. Estimates of readable data life range from 10 to 30 years. > >(And that assumes that your hardware still works -- and your controller -- > >and your driver software -- and your operating system -- etc.) This is > >right now a major issue in the medical device field, where some people > >with an interest are contending that the statute of limitations "clock" > >for children does not start until they reach 18 (and usually runs 7 > >years), meaning that any data obtained must be kept 25 years ... > > > >-- > >Mark > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > William J. Enser Co-Network Administrator alcoman@bluemoon.net Technical Support & Validations x2 & V.90 Access net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System http://www.bluemoon.net www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network bbs.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMUD irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo,NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Old Keystone Articles Date: Wed, 07 Oct 98 11:53:25 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Obsolecense and shelf life of the storage medium is a problem with reproducing almost anything. While paper doesn't become obsolete, most of it does self destruct over time. With a digital format like CD, you can at least recopy the information to a newer disk or even a new storage technology without degrading the information. (This of course assumes that you make the copy before the disk or hardware dies!) With old books or videotapes every time you make a next generation copy, you lose quality. Anyway, scanning the information is the hard and time consuming part. If at some point techology changes, copying the information to the new technology is (usually) relatively simple. Rob http://prr.railfan.net >> Yeah, I had suggested this to Trains magazine as well--it is a major >> undertaking, but I think it would be a good idea. Danger is the obsolescence >> of the storage medium. Wanna buy any 5" floppies or 8-tracks? Problem with >> print medium is mainly mildew, from my observation. And I read somewhere that >> VHS videotapes have a life of 18 years,so better figure on copying sometime to >> preserve old memories. >> >> Bob Zoeller > > >Bob's point is well taken. But y'all forget, too, that there are CDs and >there are CDs. > >Everyone out there seems to have this misconception that CDs are >indestructible. They _do_ come close, admittedly. > >The second misconception is that computer CDs last forever. Here they >DEFINITELY do not. The misconception probably stems from everyone's >experience with _music_ CDs, which are _pressed_ in large quantities. >These things are quite permanent. _Some_ computer CDs may be done in >this fashion, and here I speak primarily of software titles that are >mass produced. > >Any 'writable' CD, anything you can do at home, is created by a different >process. Estimates of readable data life range from 10 to 30 years. >(And that assumes that your hardware still works -- and your controller -- >and your driver software -- and your operating system -- etc.) This is >right now a major issue in the medical device field, where some people >with an interest are contending that the statute of limitations "clock" >for children does not start until they reach 18 (and usually runs 7 >years), meaning that any data obtained must be kept 25 years ... > >-- >Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Old Keystone Articles WAIT! Date: Wed, 7 Oct 98 11:48:01 -0400 From: Jerry On 10/7/98 10:51 AM, Mark D Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote: >my discussion with at least 1 PRRTHS officer indicates that PRRTHS does not >take copyright of the articles, but rather leaves that with the authors. >But substituting this one minor correction, the remainder of the statement >remains true. This is something we really need to confirm. Is there anything on the inside cover? (I don't have one with me.) Does any former author out there being asked to relinquish copyright? If Mark's statement holds, then all we'd need is permission of the author. Due to the overwhelming demand, I'd be willing to bet Brady McQuire would let us offer his article. Brady? > >PErsonally, I think that if the _Keystone_ is reprinted on paper or on CDROM, >it should be done by the SOciety directly, and the revenues plowed back >thereto. Agreed. But we'll all be dead before they ever move the Keystone into the 20th Century! One thing we oughtta push for: Do The Keystone electronically now, and save the files for future "repurposing". That way the PRRT&HS wouldn't have to re-key/scan later. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ODyard@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:18:15 EDT Subject: [PRR] New Screen name I have created a new screen name for my non-business mail: ODyard@aol.com. The old paintloco@aol.com is now Westside Locomotive Works only. Incidentally, OD yard was the western end of the Renovo Division in Erie and still exists as x- Conrail. I think Chessi gets it. Don Murphy The Renovo Dispatcher ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy E unit? Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 13:54:21 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell On 5 Oct, "jbreon" wrote: > Greg, > Here's the lineage of the Conrail E8s as I know it: > > Locomotive No. 4020 Model E8 built by EMD in 1951 for the PRR and numbered > PRR 5809. > > Locomotive No. 4021 Model E8 built by EMD in 1952 for the PRR and numbered > PRR 5711. Also note that these two units were HEPped while owned by Amtrak, so the "steam generator" roof detail has been replaced by a large fan and four mufflers, and the portholes were filled in. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Old Keystone Articles Date: Wed, 7 Oct 98 13:39:07 -0400 From: Jerry On 10/7/98 1:10 PM, alcoman (alcoman@net.bluemoon.net) wrote: >Rob has a point here, but using the beloved PRR as a DIRECT example of >this I was watching a documentary about data storage and archival science >and they showed a HUGE room filled with computer tapes that had the >"corporate records" of the Pennsylvania Railroad on them and NO ONE is >able to retreive the data due to the fact that the format and the >technology used to create the records is no longer available. This was >because the PRR used an proprietary system to make the records that no >longer exists. > >The current forms of electronic archiving are only good until someone >comes up with a new technology that renders the archives obsolete. The Federal Government, in their infinitie wisdom, scrapped a lot of old hardware. One of the pieces pitched was the last device capable of reading one particular year's IRS records. I forget which year, seems like mid 60s. Oh well! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Building Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TodEngine@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 17:22:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy E unit? In a message dated 98-10-07 14:10:44 EDT, you write: > > Greg, > > Here's the lineage of the Conrail E8s as I know it: > > > > Locomotive No. 4020 Model E8 built by EMD in 1951 for the PRR and numbered > > PRR 5809. > > > > Locomotive No. 4021 Model E8 built by EMD in 1952 for the PRR and numbered > > PRR 5711. > Heck, everybody knows that the real GEM of the three is the 4022, ex ERIE 833! :-) Rick Youngstown, OH Deep in Erie Country ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry and Phyllis Morgan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Old Keystone Articles WAIT! Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 20:18:27 -0400 While I agree with Mark on this, I have waited a LONG TIME for the PRRT&HS to do ANYTHING with computers except put up a WEB site that is maintained annually, kind of like Railroad ROW. I do NOT expect the PRRT&HS to reprint interesting articles or to publish a CD or to publish a meaningful WEB site. I am a member and will continue to be an ignored Lines West member -- ignored except when my magazine arrives and when it is time to renew. PRRT&HS "national" interest does not appear to be great west of Pittsburgh. I would still support a Cyber Chapter. At least someone would represent me in the annual meetings back in the home state. Larry Morgan Indiana -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Mark D Bej Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 9:51 AM To: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Cc: shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Old Keystone Articles WAIT! On Mon, 5 Oct 1998 TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > Derrick and all, > If any article was published in the KEYSTONE it is off limits to republish > anywhere without the written permission of the PRRT&HS. That only means that > it needs their permission no that it has not or cannot be done in the past or > in the future, but what is the point of reprinting what is already been done. Guys, my discussion with at least 1 PRRTHS officer indicates that PRRTHS does not take copyright of the articles, but rather leaves that with the authors. But substituting this one minor correction, the remainder of the statement remains true. PErsonally, I think that if the _Keystone_ is reprinted on paper or on CDROM, it should be done by the SOciety directly, and the revenues plowed back thereto. -- Mark D. Bej ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TAN: "KC" Makeover Date: Wed, 7 Oct 98 20:59:52 -0400 From: Jerry I'm dabbling with DHTML and CSS (Cascading Style Sheets). Those of you with Microsoft 3.x or higher, or Netscape 4.x or higher browsers will be in for a treat next time you visit "Keystone Crossings". Heading font sizes are specified. Paragraphs have indents. The Headings print in Clarendon font!!! (If you have Clarendon font, it will use it. If not, and your browser supports it, it will download it. Otherwise, you'll get Futura, Arial, Helvetica, in that order, until you have one.) Let me know if anything looks amiss, or if you have any other ideas for formatting. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] lettering box car X 42 Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 20:53:21 -0700 The X 42 four door mail box cars: Is anyone familiar with the paint and lettering of this car. If memory serves these cars were built about 1950, prior to 1954 shadow keystone era. They were used as head end mail cars. I have seen one black and white Xerox copy of this car in the ball keystone scheme. There are several color photos of it in the shadow keystone paint in print. I am told that the ends and roof were painted black in the ball keystone era. Can anyone confirm this. Were the sides painted the frieght car oxide red or tuscan red to match the passenger cars? Does anyone have a color photo or any photo of this car in the ball keystone paint scheme? Since the car came on the scene around 1950 would it have seen service behind steam at that time? Or do you think it would have been behind mainline passenger engines by that time mostly diesels? Thanks, Greg Stone PRRTHS member interest in Renovo Yards ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 00:25:32 -0500 From: Andy Cich Subject: Re: [PRR] lettering box car X 42 Greg Stone wrote: > > The X 42 four door mail box cars: Is anyone familiar with the paint and > lettering of this car. Pennsy Power III has a B/W photo of one of these cars. It says there were ten, numbered 2540-2549. The photo is of 2542, and says that it was built in 1950, but the photo is not dated. It looks like a shop photo, in that it is at an angle with the side and end visible and a blank background. There is a stencil on the end that says BUILT 10 50, and another that says PAINT ALT**E 451. As for the paint & lettering, there is no keystone. The word Pennsylvania is centered between the doors, fairly near the top of the car. Two thin stripes run the length of the car, about 1/4 the way up the side from the bottom. The car number appears twice on each side: below the stripes and between the a door and car end. Being black and white, its hard to tell, but the end appears to be the same color as the side. Could it be that the stripes, Pennsylvania, and car numbers were painted bronze gold on a tuscan body? It's interesting that you mention this car. I bought Pennsy Power III about two weeks ago, and that photo is one that stood out. For those that don't own it, I highly suggest buying Pennsy Power III. In addition to the sections on Steam, Electric, and Diesel motive power, the are sections on head end cars, PRR Passenger cars, Pullmans, freight cars, PRR trucks (several variations of Truc Trains are shown), PRR boats/ships, and even PRR airplanes! Andy C. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 01:44:39 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Greg Martin's proposal regarding a PRR article recycled Greetings to Greg and the list: Spoke to Paul Withers today about the discussions that have been flowing around regarding an expanded, recycled Keystone article (PRR boxcar lettering) that some have envisioned as a Withers Publishing project. As expected, he asked the questions I posed here earlier. How many people would buy it? Who would assemble it? How complete is it at the moment, i.e., right now? He did voice some interest in the topic (the immutable law of railroad publishing is that PRR sells) but you should know that he's got more book projects on his desk right now than he's ever had in the eight years I've worked with him. Many of them are complete and ready to go, or are nearly so. The result? There's really no incentive for him to dive into any project that isn't already complete. Dan Dan Cupper managing editor, Diesel Era magazine and Withers Publishing dan@mci2000.com Psalm 27:8 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 02:04:26 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] lettering box car X 42 In a message dated 10/7/98 11:20:18 PM Central Daylight Time, gas@fastinet.net writes: << Were the sides painted the frieght car oxide red or tuscan red to match the passenger cars? >> Wayner's book (and a few other places) shows a photo (unfortunately black and white) of this car with a gold stripe and passenger lettering and claims it is in tuscan red,but also laments that no color photos existed. Don't know how long this scheme lasted, since the only photos I have seen of the car in a train (in Cincinnatti, I think) show the ball keystone freight scheme. I picked one up at a bargain in brass in California years ago, but haven't gotten around to painting it. When I do, I will probably do the stripe scheme and live with any resulting anachronisms. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Greg Martin's proposal regarding a PRR article recycled Date: Thu, 8 Oct 98 06:25:53 -0400 From: Jerry On 10/8/98 1:44 AM, Dan Cupper (dan@mci2000.com) wrote: >As expected, he asked the questions I posed here earlier. How many people >would buy it? Who would assemble it? How complete is it at the moment, >i.e., right now? I can do the assembly, as previously stated. How many do you need to sell? How many are in a small run for Withers? ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Old Keystone Articles WAIT! Date: Thu, 08 Oct 98 11:24:05 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Hi all, Have you looked at the PRRT&HS web site lately? The new folks working on it are much more responsive than the post and forget team of old. I sent a message to one of the webmasters suggesting that this article should be one to be posted on the site. Rob prr.railfan.net While I agree with Mark on this, I have waited a LONG TIME for the PRRT&HS to do ANYTHING with computers except put up a WEB site that is maintained annually, kind of like Railroad ROW. I do NOT expect the PRRT&HS to reprint interesting articles or to publish a CD or to publish a meaningful WEB site. I am a member and will continue to be an ignored Lines West member -- ignored except when my magazine arrives and when it is time to renew. PRRT&HS "national" interest does not appear to be great west of Pittsburgh. I would still support a Cyber Chapter. At least someone would represent me in the annual meetings back in the home state. Larry Morgan ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] lettering box car X 42 Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:00:24 -0400 I have painted my X-42 in the Tuscan and Bronze stripe scheme described by Andy. It looks "right" to me, but I have no further documentation to add to the discussion. I tend to weather my head-end equipment a little heavier than many people do so the base colors are not as pronounced as they would be if not weathered. Jerry Breon -----Original Message----- From: Greg Stone To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, October 08, 1998 12:12 AM Subject: [PRR] lettering box car X 42 > The X 42 four door mail box cars: Is anyone familiar with the paint and >lettering of this car. If memory serves these cars were built about 1950, >prior to 1954 shadow keystone era. They were used as head end mail cars. I >have seen one black and white Xerox copy of this car in the ball keystone >scheme. There are several color photos of it in the shadow keystone paint in >print. I am told that the ends and roof were painted black in the ball >keystone era. Can anyone confirm this. Were the sides painted the frieght >car oxide red or tuscan red to match the passenger cars? Does anyone have a >color photo or any photo of this car in the ball keystone paint scheme? > Since the car came on the scene around 1950 would it have seen service >behind steam at that time? Or do you think it would have been behind >mainline passenger engines by that time mostly diesels? >Thanks, > Greg Stone > PRRTHS member > interest in Renovo Yards > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cschlund@sfsu.edu Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 20:17:27 Subject: Re: [PRR] CDS Pennsy hopper lettering sets Hi Ron & list members, > CDS has three other sets in the Pennsy section that I am curious about: > > CDS# company/class road # on diagram era > > 287 Baker-Whitely Coal Co./GLa 8101 1905 > 288 Jamison Coal & Coke Co./GLa 109 1905 > 289 Westmoreland Coal Co.GLa 2132 1914 > > Westmoreland I've read a little about. Anyone have info on the other > two? Jamison and Westmoreland both owned some PRR-design hoppers, as did Berwind-White. I believe all these fleets were eventually sold to the PRR over the course of time. - Claus -------------------------***{}***------------------------- Claus Schlund (Shop Foreman, Bernal Heights Car & Foundry) Modeling steam-era PRR in N scale - San Francisco, CA Interested in BHC&F products? Check out our no-longer-one-and-only N scale passenger car kit at http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~cschlund/models/pullman.gif ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 12:20:17 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Greg Martin's proposal regarding a PRR article recycled -----Original Message----- From: Jerry >I can do the assembly, as previously stated. > >How many do you need to sell? How many are in a small run for Withers? Answer: 2,000. Dan Dan Cupper dan@cwix.com 1 John 1:9 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:14:45 EDT Subject: [PRR] X42 Folks, There's a color picture of an X42 in Morning Sun's Pennsy color Guide, but it's got the shadow keystone. The Pennsylvania is still spelled out between the doors, but it no longer has the stripes. Seems the Keystone once had a kit bashing article on this car...perhaps that says something about the original paint? Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 21:47:15 EDT Subject: [PRR] WESTERFIELD SALE Jerry, I was looking over your latest listing of Westerfields and have a question about your "3 for$45" sale. Do you have to buy them in threes ( 3/ $45, 6/ $90, etc), or can you get 4 for $60? Please advise. Thanks. Barry ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry and Phyllis Morgan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Greg Martin's proposal regarding a PRR article Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 21:35:10 -0400 I would certainly buy one! I would put in cash up front! Larry Morgan -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Dan Cupper Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 12:45 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Greg Martin's proposal regarding a PRR article recycledinto a Withers book Greetings to Greg and the list: Spoke to Paul Withers today about the discussions that have been flowing around regarding an expanded, recycled Keystone article (PRR boxcar lettering) that some have envisioned as a Withers Publishing project. As expected, he asked the questions I posed here earlier. How many people would buy it? Who would assemble it? How complete is it at the moment, i.e., right now? He did voice some interest in the topic (the immutable law of railroad publishing is that PRR sells) but you should know that he's got more book projects on his desk right now than he's ever had in the eight years I've worked with him. Many of them are complete and ready to go, or are nearly so. The result? There's really no incentive for him to dive into any project that isn't already complete. Dan Dan Cupper managing editor, Diesel Era magazine and Withers Publishing dan@mci2000.com Psalm 27:8 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 19:49:55 -0700 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: [PRR] lettering box car X 42 Greg, There is a B/W photo of the X42 as built in the 1953 CBC on page 95. I think the car was painted in Pennsy's version of freight car red--not tuscan & not oxide, and I don't believe any X class cars were ever painted anything but this color. The ends and roof are definitely the same color as the sides. BTW, there were only 20 box cars (40 footers) ever to have black ends (not the roof) that were built by Pullman-Standard. From what I understand, the PRR didn't specify the black, P-S just took it upon themselves to do it 'cause that's how they painted just about everybody elses. Anyhow, back to the X42. The cars had wrap-around 3-4 interim improved dreadnaught ends with a small short straight rib at the top, above the small stiffener rib, and rode on General Steel Castings 5' 10" BX express trucks with clasp brakes and snubber. PENNSYLVANIA in passenger car extended Roman lettering font is centered between the two doors, reaching from door edge to door edge, and there are two 1" stripes (presumably imitation gold) along the side of the car about 1/3 of the way up the side of the car, coinsiding with the second small stiffener rib of the lower end sheets. The stripes begin/end at the edge of the wrap-around end sheets and are discontinuous (they're not painted on the doors--same way as on passenger cars). The road numbers appear at each end of the car in the 4" notched font (one of the Clarendons?) centered over the trucks about 6" below the lower stripe. The end number and other stencilling is just that--stencil. There is no keystone of any description on the car. Hope this helps answer your questions. Chuck Friedlein PRRT&HS member, Natn'l & Phila. Chapt. (existing in Oregon--ex-SP land) Greg Stone wrote: > > The X 42 four door mail box cars: Is anyone familiar with the paint and > lettering of this car. If memory serves these cars were built about 1950, > prior to 1954 shadow keystone era. They were used as head end mail cars. I > have seen one black and white Xerox copy of this car in the ball keystone > scheme. There are several color photos of it in the shadow keystone paint in > print. I am told that the ends and roof were painted black in the ball > keystone era. Can anyone confirm this. Were the sides painted the frieght > car oxide red or tuscan red to match the passenger cars? Does anyone have a > color photo or any photo of this car in the ball keystone paint scheme? > Since the car came on the scene around 1950 would it have seen service > behind steam at that time? Or do you think it would have been behind > mainline passenger engines by that time mostly diesels? > Thanks, > Greg Stone > PRRTHS member > interest in Renovo Yards > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] X 42 paint and lettering Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 20:47:54 -0700 Thanks to all that have responded so far. There seems to have been several paint schemes for these cars. A friend of mine imported these cars in brass through a company. He gave me a Xerox copy of the "original " paint and lettering scheme supposedly of 1950. Being black and white it is tough to tell with any real accuracy what the paint colors are. However the ends do look distinctly darker than the sides in this picture and the lettering looks bright as though it is white. There is a ball keystone on the one side as I recall though I don't have the picture in hand. I just thought this might stir some brain cells of those guys who may have seen them or maybe someone has a color photo of this scheme. I model in O-scale and the latest I want to model is 1950 so I am interested in the original scheme of 1950. The second part of my question has not received a response. In the year 1950 what do you think is the probability of seeing this car behind a steamer as opposed to a diesel ? Thanks, Greg Stone member PRRTHS Interest in Renovo Yards ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Laird, Bill" Subject: RE: [PRR] Greg Martin's proposal regarding a PRR article recycled Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 02:05:45 -0500 > -----Original Message----- > From: Jerry > > >How many do you need to sell? How many are in a small run for Withers? > ---------- Dan's Reply ------------- > Answer: 2,000. > > Dan Cupper > dan@cwix.com > 1 John 1:9 > --------- My Questions ----------- How many members are there in the PRRT&HS? Although not all would buy everything published about the PRR, it would give some indication of the size of the "hard core" SPF's. How many copies of the three volume locomotive series has Withers sold to date? Another indicator. How many volumes of some of the publications of the PRRT&HS and their chapters have been sold in recent years? I think the answers to these questions would determine fairly accurately the market. Want to really answer how marketable it would be? Offer a pre-publication price somewhat lower than the retail price and see how many send in the $$$$$. Bill Laird ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Laird, Bill" Subject: [PRR] More on old Keystone articles. Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 02:30:58 -0500 I have been a member of the PRRT&HS for about five years and the Keystone issues I receive form a valuable part of my SPF library. Since joining, I have purchased some of the older Keystone issues that contained articles of particular interest. However, I could not hope to be able to afford all previous issues, even if they were available, and where would I store them! I really would like to see the society publish all past issues on CD. I would gladly pay $ 100 for the collection. Is there other similar demand? If so, how can we make the desire known to the society management in a way that they will respond? Some thoughts: Collect via PRR-Talk a list of members who indicate an interest in purchasing and forward to the society. Have interested members send individual e-mails to the society. Someone, and I don't know who this would be, with the knowledge of how to do this make a formal proposal to the society complete with a business plan showing how it would be accomplished, what it would cost, timeframe for production, prospective market, and anticipated revenues. The 250+ members of PRR-Talk should be able to somehow act as a unified voice and yield some form of influence. Maybe we need a lobbyist. Anyone care to comment? Bill Laird ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] WESTERFIELD SALE Date: Fri, 9 Oct 98 06:18:34 -0400 From: Jerry On 10/8/98 9:47 PM, BPX29@aol.com (BPX29@aol.com) wrote: >I was looking over your latest listing of Westerfields and have a question >about your "3 for$45" sale. Do you have to buy them in threes ( 3/ $45, 6/ >$90, etc), or can you get 4 for $60? Please advise. Thanks. I have to buy them in threes...while supplies last. My distributor is discontinuing handling Westerfield. (I am working on purchasing direct.) If you want an odd quantity, I will consider buying the extras for my stock, depending on what units are still available. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] SALE: BP20's Intro Special Date: Fri, 9 Oct 98 08:44:29 -0400 From: Jerry Having become satisfied with the BP20 Passenger Sharks from Miracle Castings, "Merchandise Service" is now bringing them on board as a product for resale. I've got numerous units on order and am now accepting advance reservations. The retail price is $99.99. Between now and November 30, 1998, I am offering the kit for $89...or two for $85 each. (The PRR ran these in A-B-A configurations.) The B units will ship shortly. You'll also need an Athearn PA mechanism. I can supply an Athearn PA1 in PRR for $35.99. (Athearn is on sale this month at 20% off.) See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/ for ordering and product information. REMEMBER: Your purchases from "Merchandise Service" support the lists of DSOP.COM and the web sites of PENNSYRR.COM. Thank you for your support. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:23:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] Greg Martin's proposal regarding a PRR article recycled On Fri, 9 Oct 1998, Laird, Bill wrote: > How many members are there in the PRRT&HS? Although not all would > buy everything published about the PRR, it would give some indication of the > size of the "hard core" SPF's. How many copies of the three volume > locomotive series has Withers sold to date? Another indicator. How many 4 volumes. I did finally see (and buy) the 4th at the museum last Saturday. -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:30:28 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] steam or diesel?(was X 42 paint and lettering) > The second part of my question has not received a response. In the year >1950 what do you think is the probability of seeing this car behind a >steamer as opposed to a diesel ? Greg, How about both? PRR steam power ran until the late 50's, and while the PRR was late getting into diesels, there were plenty of freight units around by 1950. In fact, in the early to mid 50's it would not have been unusual to see diesel power coupled to steam helpers, for example. Also, steam lasted longer on some of the branch lines than it did on the mainline, in terms of regular service. If you leaf through an edition of Pennsy Power, you can quickly identify when the makes/models of diesel were purchased, and the number of units. If you are asking, was the make up of power on trains 50:50, 30:70 or some other combo, it would require a little more digging, and would likely be very location specific. In 1950, steam still predominated everywhere, so most likely steamers would outnumber diesels by a significant margin, except of course on the A&S, C&PD, etc where electrics ran with steamers! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great literary works in Braille. ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 09:04:49 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Greg Martin's proposal regarding a PRR article In a message dated 10/9/98 3:12:09 AM Central Daylight Time, Bill.Laird@COASTALCORP.COM writes: << How many members are there in the PRRT&HS? >> Don't forget some of the members have the original issues,so the market for repritnts would be smaller than that for newly published information. OTOH, I might go for a CD-ROM of all back issues with some built-in search capabilities. Bob (still looking for BLH covered wagon book by Withers in the Great Midwest). Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 11:11:31 -0400 From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] Mind your P's ... The "P" freight train schedules are all completed. See http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Frtsched/ -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone on CD? Date: Fri, 9 Oct 98 09:55:08 -0400 From: Jerry On 10/9/98 9:04 AM, Bobspf@aol.com (Bobspf@aol.com) wrote: >Don't forget some of the members have the original issues,so the market for >repritnts would be smaller than that for newly published information. OTOH, I >might go for a CD-ROM of all back issues with some built-in search >capabilities. Built-in search capabilities would only apply to issues supplied to the CD electronically. All new issues "should" be electronic, though Chuck may be leaving "holes" for the printer to drop in the photos. This is quite common. To go to CD effectively, even the scans should reside within the publishing software's file. Then "yes", going to CD would be easy and would provide search capabilities. If The Keystone is leaving holes for photos, then you've got a problem. Another question is, is the society bothering to save electronic files of past issues. Knowing their approach to technology, probably not. At least not that far back. As for pre-electronic issues, they either need scanned and presented as graphics (non-searchable) or the photos need scanned AND the text rekeyed/OCR'd and a new electronic pagination document created for the sole purpose of going to CD. This is a VERY time consuming process. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 12:11:05 -0400 From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] tomato paste for Salem, N.J. In typing in these freight train schedules, the extreme specificity of some of the shipments never ceases to amaze me. Yes, Virginia, there is a specific shipment of tomato paste to Salem, N.J. I'm wondering if any of the New Jerseyites on this list can tell us what's in Salem that would use it?? This train is _also_ very strange in that it can be a Panhandle train -- or it can be a Fort Wayne train!! See http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Frtsched/nw88_1960.html -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone on CD? Date: Fri, 09 Oct 98 12:02:48 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Hi. Even if the current magazines are in electronic form, the ones that I'm sure most people would like to see on CD are the earlier ones which probably aren't. If the society can be convinced to try the CD project, they should be able to find enough volunteers to do the scanning and OCR'ing! If it wasn't for that sticky copyright problem, we'd would probably have most of the issues online! Rob On 10/9/98 9:04 AM, Bobspf@aol.com (Bobspf@aol.com) wrote: >Don't forget some of the members have the original issues,so the market for >repritnts would be smaller than that for newly published information. OTOH, I >might go for a CD-ROM of all back issues with some built-in search >capabilities. Built-in search capabilities would only apply to issues supplied to the CD electronically. All new issues "should" be electronic, though Chuck may be leaving "holes" for the printer to drop in the photos. This is quite common. To go to CD effectively, even the scans should reside within the publishing software's file. Then "yes", going to CD would be easy and would provide search capabilities. If The Keystone is leaving holes for photos, then you've got a problem. Another question is, is the society bothering to save electronic files of past issues. Knowing their approach to technology, probably not. At least not that far back. As for pre-electronic issues, they either need scanned and presented as graphics (non-searchable) or the photos need scanned AND the text rekeyed/OCR'd and a new electronic pagination document created for the sole purpose of going to CD. This is a VERY time consuming process. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Freight Sharks - Learned Something New Date: Fri, 9 Oct 98 06:22:22 -0400 From: Jerry Last night I was poring over my newly purchased copy of Volume Four of the "PRR Loco Series" from Withers Publishing. This edition deals with Baldwin cab units. I was mainly looking for shots of BP20's to compare with the Miracle Castings model...which is very accurate, I might add! Anyway, there are several shots of Freight Sharks in DGLE five stripe!!! The text explains that the freight sharks were an exception to the rule about the traditionally passenger scheme. They didn't wear them long, but you could repaint a Model Power freight shark in DGLE 5-stripe and be correct! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] tomato paste for Salem, N.J. Date: Fri, 9 Oct 98 12:50:41 -0400 From: Jerry On 10/9/98 12:11 PM, Mark Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote: >In typing in these freight train schedules, the extreme specificity of >some of >the shipments never ceases to amaze me. Yes, Virginia, there is a >specific >shipment of tomato paste to Salem, N.J. I'm wondering if any of the New In entering data for my "24 Hours at Harrisburg" study, one of the freights contained a block labeled "Cyanide, Niagra Falls to Harsimus Cove". Hmmm. Wonder how it was shipped? Perhaps containers inside gons? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 13:27:44 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Sharks - Learned Something New Jerry, did you notice on the builders photos that the stripes did not go past the ladder. Looks kind of naked. Jerry on 10/09/98 05:22:22 AM To: "PRR-Talk" cc: (bcc: Randy Williamson/Marathon) Subject: [PRR] Freight Sharks - Learned Something New Last night I was poring over my newly purchased copy of Volume Four of the "PRR Loco Series" from Withers Publishing. This edition deals with Baldwin cab units. I was mainly looking for shots of BP20's to compare with the Miracle Castings model...which is very accurate, I might add! Anyway, there are several shots of Freight Sharks in DGLE five stripe!!! The text explains that the freight sharks were an exception to the rule about the traditionally passenger scheme. They didn't wear them long, but you could repaint a Model Power freight shark in DGLE 5-stripe and be correct! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Sharks - Learned Something New From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 98 14:19:28 -0400 Jerry, Don't forget the encircled keystone behind the cab door! That was a unique feature of 5-stripe sharks whether freight or passenger. While the PRR started painting freight sharks with the single stripe in the early 50's (I don't recall exactly when), 5-stripe sharks survived on the property for almost another decade. One other freight unit wore the 5-stripe, some of the EMD FP7s. A few of them were that way, but they were Tuscan! regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org BTW The (Westerfield) check is in the mail. Now I have to start saving my lunch money again before the November deadline ;-) ============== Last night I was poring over my newly purchased copy of Volume Four of the "PRR Loco Series" from Withers Publishing. This edition deals with Baldwin cab units. I was mainly looking for shots of BP20's to compare with the Miracle Castings model...which is very accurate, I might add! Anyway, there are several shots of Freight Sharks in DGLE five stripe!!! The text explains that the freight sharks were an exception to the rule about the traditionally passenger scheme. They didn't wear them long, but you could repaint a Model Power freight shark in DGLE 5-stripe and be correct! - ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com - ----------------------------------------------- - ---------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. - ---------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 14:08:41 EDT Subject: [PRR] Express cars, X42 and others In a message dated 10/9/98 9:57:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: > > The second part of my question has not received a response. In the year > >1950 what do you think is the probability of seeing this car behind a > >steamer as opposed to a diesel ? A slightly different question for those of us who don't own an X42 model might be "what is the probability of seeing this car at all? For the sake of argument, there were a lot more B60 and X29 express cars than X42's (ratios like 400 to one?). In reality, I don't know if the ten X42s ran on any particular routes. The 1962 Paul Winters picture of #2545 in Columbus that appears in Color Guide Vol 2 is the first indication I'd ever seen of one operating west of Pittsburgh (obligatory Lines West content ). To repeat myself, 1. now that we have good X29s easily detailed for express service, and 2. we (hopefully still) have the B60 model with round windowed doors, 3. I'm looking forward to the arrival of an REX steel reefer IN QUANTITY. Once that arrives, 4. would we dare start talking about another RPO? I like Bethlehem Car Works' M70b, although it represents the 1920s-1930s look with its pair of vertical windows in each door. Fortunately, the BCW kit is readily updated to an M70ba with round windows in the door and some rectangular body windows blanked off. However, I wonder if we could support another rebuild, probably BM70m or BM70ma? Although these cars are predecessors of the AHM/IHC/Rivarossi BM70nb, few people will do the heavy kitbashing necessary to backdate a Rivarossi shell to have rectangular body windows, round door windows, and 6-wheel trucks. And yet until the end of RPO service, the BM70m, BM70ma, and M70ba far outnumbered the few BM70n/BM70nb in service. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: re: [PRR] Freight Sharks - Learned Something New Date: Fri, 9 Oct 98 14:09:42 -0400 From: Jerry On 10/9/98 1:51 PM, kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL (kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL) wrote: >You've got me a little confused. Are you saying that there was another 5 >stripe paint scheme for the Sharks? One without the circle keystone and >one with? If I'm not mistaken they came from Baldwin in DGLE w/ the 5 >stripe/circle keystone scheme. Then about 1952 or so they were either >delivered or repainted with the single stripe scheme. There are several >pictures of Sharks on the dead tracks awaiting the torch still in the 5 >stripe scheme and that was about 1964/65. > >>From: Jerry , on 10/9/98 6:22 AM: > >Anyway, there are several shots of Freight Sharks in DGLE five stripe!!! > >The text explains that the freight sharks were an exception to the rule > >about the traditionally passenger scheme. They didn't wear them long, but > >you could repaint a Model Power freight shark in DGLE 5-stripe and be > >correct! Not sure if you are referring to the freight sharks or the passenger sharks or both. I don't know what all incarnations of the freight shark there were, but my point was that the five stripe scheme -- any five stripe scheme -- was traditionally only used on passenger units. However, there was an exception in that some of the Baldwin freight sharks wore DGLE five-stripe for a short while, thereafter painted with DGLE single narrow stripe. As for the passenger sharks, there were four schemes: 1) As delivered, five stripes in DGLE with a circle keystone. However, the stripes DID NOT extend past the cab door down to the nose. 2) DGLE five stripe, as above, but stripes extended through the door onto the nose. A 'b' revision of this scheme was the same, but with a Tuscan base. 3) Tuscan single wide stripe. 4) The regeared-for-freight BP20's, now BF16z, were repained in DGLE single narrow stripe. A fuller explanation and painting diagrams has been available on "Keystone Crossings" for some time, under the "Motive Power Operations" section. Enjoy. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Sharks - Learned Something New Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 14:06:45 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell On 9 Oct, Jerry wrote: > Anyway, there are several shots of Freight Sharks in DGLE five stripe!!! There are also a couple of shots of these in Solomon & Shafer's PRR Color History (or whatever the title is), dated 1955 and 1958. Apparently they were delivered that way, and repainted only slowly (or regionally?), starting in 1952 as far as I know. > The text explains that the freight sharks were an exception to the rule > about the traditionally passenger scheme. They didn't wear them long, but > you could repaint a Model Power freight shark in DGLE 5-stripe and be > correct! Yep, I'm planning to do so with my N Scale deLuxe Innovations freight sharks. In fact, I've been trying to find the photos I *know* I have showing freight sharks in one narrow stripe, but I haven't been able to. Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 9 Oct 98 13:51:03 EDT From: Subject: re: [PRR] Freight Sharks - Learned Something New You've got me a little confused. Are you saying that there was another 5 stripe paint scheme for the Sharks? One without the circle keystone and one with? If I'm not mistaken they came from Baldwin in DGLE w/ the 5 stripe/circle keystone scheme. Then about 1952 or so they were either delivered or repainted with the single stripe scheme. There are several pictures of Sharks on the dead tracks awaiting the torch still in the 5 stripe scheme and that was about 1964/65. Kris ------------- Original Text From: Jerry , on 10/9/98 6:22 AM: Last night I was poring over my newly purchased copy of Volume Four of the "PRR Loco Series" from Withers Publishing. This edition deals with Baldwin cab units. I was mainly looking for shots of BP20's to compare with the Miracle Castings model...which is very accurate, I might add! Anyway, there are several shots of Freight Sharks in DGLE five stripe!!! The text explains that the freight sharks were an exception to the rule about the traditionally passenger scheme. They didn't wear them long, but you could repaint a Model Power freight shark in DGLE 5-stripe and be correct! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 13:34:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Sharks - Learned Something New > Anyway, there are several shots of Freight Sharks in DGLE five stripe!!! Old news; Plenty of such pictures in the Morning Sun books. > The text explains that the freight sharks were an exception to the rule > about the traditionally passenger scheme. They didn't wear them long, but > you could repaint a Model Power freight shark in DGLE 5-stripe and be > correct! And have classy units to boot. I intend to. -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 17:43:32 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Sharks - Learned Something New Hold on, now. AFter blowing it on the freight car quiz last week, I'm little charry about voicing any op inion on paint schemes. But the one I do know is that by modeling 1950, all my motive power will be DGLE and I'm fairly sure the BP-20 and BF-16 were in service in 1950. Or am I wrong again? Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 18:07:52 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Sharks - Learned Something New In a message dated 10/9/98 12:34:07 PM Central Daylight Time, jerry@dsop.com writes: << They didn't wear them long, but you could repaint a Model Power freight shark in DGLE 5-stripe and be correct! >> I thought everybody did that. :-). Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 18:06:34 EDT Subject: [PRR] P1K F3 Pennsy folks, Well I got my first glimpse today of the much talked about PK F3, and how should I put this? Put it this way: the good news is Athearn is going to put out a Genesis version of the F3 using the Highliner shell. The bad news is the P1K F3. But then again, the chicken wire and fans are well done, and the cab didn't look that bad from the side, at least at a glance. Other than that, the detail on the roof could benefit from the old Varney F3 dies, the grab irons and handrails are a major negative, the back of the unit featured shallow detail and the paint job, in this case GN, was a notch or two below hideous. I was afraid to compare the head-on look to a photo of the real thing, but it didn't look right to me. Other than that, perhaps when the discounters have dropped the price to $19.88, the drive may be usable (under a Genesis shell, maybe?). Naw. Come on, Athearn! Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Production of The Keystone Date: Fri, 9 Oct 98 20:35:10 -0400 From: Jerry E-mailed Chuck Blardone about how The Keystone is produced. Asked him to overlook whether or not he supported our CD-ROM ideas, but to just answer some questions about how the piece is done so we could "size up" the process of potentially releasing it electronically. It's all pretty much bad news. Despite the fact that this is one of the best topical magazines out there, it's still produced pretty much traditionally. Chuck does do the editing on a computer and ship a disk to the printer, but it's just in manuscript format, with directions to the printer to lay it out with "this photo here" and "this photo there". Chuck is not doing the layout. That also means that there are no back issues archived electronically. As for going forward, into the electronic design era, Chuck had this to say, "I don't have the time to do all of this work; if it was a job requirement, you'd have another editor." That says a lot, cause Chuck does a great job at it. The society cannot afford to lose him. On 10/9/98 8:12 PM, Charles Blardone, Jr. (xxxxxxxxx) wrote: >The Directors of the PRRT&HS are holding their semiannual meeting next >Saturday. I attend and give a "State of "The Keystone"" report. I will >also bring up this question concerning CD-ROM versions. You're not the >first person to ask about the possibility. However, finding dependable >manpower to handle such projects has doomed other ideas to oblivion. I have volunteered myself to assist. However, the board must first overcome its fear of electronic medium. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 20:30:08 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Sharks - Learned Something New To Jerry and All, Yes they did! God love 'em. But check your photos when lettering your Sharks. Yes Virginia, there is a differance. The location of the fuel tank. Forward on the BF-15, aft on the BF-16. An air vent or car body filter is behind the 2nd axle on the BF-16. It is absent on the BF-15. I believe Pennsy Power 2 has a photo of a BF-15 "B" unit in the DGLE w/5-stripe scheme dated 1965. So some may have survived much longer. The Gods of the High Iron love a hard working dirty Shark set! Ed Martin "Without a Shark book out West!" ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 19:47:55 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Cabooses at Renovo From: rbreon@juno.com This message is really for Greg Stone as he signs his postings showing "an interest in Renovo Yards". However, anyone can answer. About three years ago I was touring in the Renovo area and noticed a large quantity of cabooses stored in the Renovo Yards. I don't remember what livery that had on them. Why were they there and are they still there? Roy Breon ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TodEngine@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 21:30:38 EDT Subject: [PRR] Cabooses at Renovo Could someone repost that post, as I accidentally deleted it before reading. I was at Renovo a few months ago looking at those cabins. Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Sharks - Learned Something New Date: Fri, 9 Oct 98 20:29:02 -0400 From: Jerry On 10/9/98 5:43 PM, LINESWEST@aol.com (LINESWEST@aol.com) wrote: > Hold on, now. AFter blowing it on the freight car quiz last week, I'm little >charry about voicing any op inion on paint schemes. But the one I do know is >that by modeling 1950, all my motive power will be DGLE and I'm fairly sure >the BP-20 and BF-16 were in service in 1950. > > Or am I wrong again? Both units were indeed in service in 1950. I believe the Tuscan split started in 1952. The change from five stripe to single wide stripe for passenger units -- due to cost -- began in 1954. However, any scheme could've lasted for years until a particular unit's time came for repainting. So, I can have all three in 1954! 8-) ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 21:02:12 -0400 Subject: [PRR] NSINFO@nscorp.com: [railroad] Implementation Update, From: rbreon@juno.com FYI. Roy Breon --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- From: NSINFO@nscorp.com To: Subject: [railroad] Implementation Update, 10/9/1998 Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 16:21:13 -0400 Message-ID: <199810092021.QAA14499@webserver2.nscorp.com> Implementation Update (Available on the World Wide Web at http://www.nscorp.com/nscorp/html/update/) October 9, 1998 Norfolk Southern Public Relations Headline Conrail freight car restenciling project under way. To minimize disruptions for customers and field operating personnel, NS, CSX and Conrail have implemented plans to restencil 12,000 of the 16,000 freight cars allocated to New York Central Lines LLC, a wholly owned subsidiary of Conrail, with NYC reporting marks. The NYC reporting marks will be assigned to CSX effective the Closing Date. Freight cars allocated to Pennsylvania Lines LLC, also a wholly owned subsidiary of Conrail, will retain their existing marks and paint schemes. All reporting marks other than NYC will be assigned to NS effective the Closing Date. "Proper equipment identification is essential to a smooth and successful transition, as reporting marks drive several key railroad functions," said Osby Harvey, system manager Car Compensation, Equipment Marketing, Roanoke. "Car hire rate negotiations, car hire settlements, car distribution practices and car repair billing are all based on mark ownership. So, it's important that Conrail cars allocated for use by CSX and NS be easily recognized by field operating personnel as well as by internal and other industry electronic systems." As of this week, a total 8,636 cars were restenciled with NYC marks at the 26 different Conrail locations taking part in the restenciling effort. This represents 72 percent of the cars expected to be restenciled before Closing Date. Based on the current rate of production, Conrail expects to have a total 10,500 cars restenciled by year's end. Notable Altoona welcomed Norfolk Southern as its newest citizen during the fourth annual Railfest celebration October 3. Congressman Bud Shuster presented Senior Vice President Operations Jon Manetta with a painting of a westbound NS intermodal train on Horseshoe Curve. The painting, by local artist Robert L. Hunt, had been commissioned by the community's new Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. Among those present for the ceremony were Peter Barton, museum executive director; Rudy Husband, museum board member and NS director Public Relations; Dan Mazur, NS assistant vice president Strategic Planning; Bill Schafer, NS director Strategic Planning; Richard Timmons, NS resident vice president for Pennsylvania; and Chuck Medovich, Conrail's general manager Manufacturing Assets. "Altoona can count on Norfolk Southern to be a safe, dependable partner in the years ahead," Manetta told Railfest visitors. "This painting will serve as a reminder of our partnership and of the great things we will do together." Our Joint Heritage Norfolk Southern and Conrail share many historical ties, among them a connection to Raymond Loewy, who early in the century practically invented the field of industrial design and went on to become its most widely recognized practitioner. Loewy created designs for transportation concerns, appliances, trademarks, packaging, retail stores and government agencies. Among his clients were Greyhound, Studebaker, Exxon, Lockheed, United Airlines, Shell Oil, Sears, Lord and Taylor, Nabisco, Kroger, Canada Dry, Ritz Crackers, Lucky Strike cigarettes and Pepsodent toothpaste. His designs have appeared on everything from U.S. mail to the furnishings and equipment on board Air Force One and the Skylab space station, and many are still in use today. As a boy, Loewy enjoyed sketching trains - good practice for the day when he would design the Class S-1, T-1 and GG-1 locomotives for the Pennsylvania Railroad, a Conrail predecessor. The streamlined Class GG-1s were particularly well-known, as they pulled passenger and freight trains from Washington and Harrisburg to New York via Philadelphia. The Broadway Limited, Senator, Federal, Morning Congressional and Afternoon Congressional were some of the prestigious trains towed by these reliable, bi-directional electric units. A curious trademark of the GG-1 was its horn, which some said sounded like those on large oceangoing vessels. Impressed with the style of these locomotives, officials of the Norfolk and Western Railway, a Norfolk Southern predecessor, asked Loewy if he could improve upon their passenger station at the company's headquarters in Roanoke, Va. By 1950, Loewy and his staff had given the 1905-vintage station a complete make-over in a cosmopolitan style that bespoke modernity and efficiency. Highlights included a walnut ticket desk, a deep-red map of the U.S. with gilded N&W routes, marble edging around doors, and what was probably Roanoke's first escalator, which reversed directions depending on whether passengers were arriving or departing. Today the historic passenger station is owned by a foundation working to preserve its architectural heritage. Ironically, just down the street, visitors can find one of Loewy's famous Pennsylvania locomotives, a GG-1 preserved for visitors of the Virginia Museum of Transportation. ------------------ Norfolk Southern Corporation http://www.nscorp.com --------- End forwarded message ---------- ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TodEngine@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 22:03:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] renovo cabooses In a message dated 98-10-09 21:55:57 EDT, you write: > Rumor has it that some wealthy individual was planning a caboose motel > type thing with them. He owned the yard also and has since sold half of it > to a Clinton County businesses association who wanted to keep him from > selling off the large cranes in the shops there. These are reported to be > the largest overhead shop cranes east of the mississippi. He intended to > sell the other half of the yard to the same association but I don't know if > that went through. I will be visiting Renovo the last two weeks of October > will let you know what is up after that. Those are nice cranes, but are not the largest by any means. Perhaps the largest of their age. I think they are 80 ton each. Been a few months since I saw them last. > The coaling tower still stands. Efforts have been made to donate it to > someone willing to take care of it,but Renovo is a very poor town. I don't > know what will become of it. I have told individuals in the historical > society that this may be one of the last of its kind in PA, possibly a > tourist attraction and it should be preserved somehow. Preserving that coaling tower should not be a huge project, as it was designed to hold a full load of coal, and thus is way overdesigned for just supporting its own weight. Chutes and appendages may deteriorate and fall, but that can be remedied. I was fascinated by the Renovo complex, when I saw it for the first time last year I never thought I would find a railroad shop in as complete condition as this one is in still existing- and accessible. I went to look at the 44 tonner that was (is) for sale by Track One International, but actually became more interested in the site itself. Anyone seriously interested in looking into saving the Renovo coaling tower? Sounds like a worthwhile thing to do and I would be willing to help in any way I can. Rick Rowlands ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] renovo cabooses Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 18:46:12 -0700 Cabooses are ex conrail. Better than half have been sold off. I spoke with owner about a year or two ago and he stated they are for sale at scrap value about $4,000. As of last year there were about 20 or so left. Two or three are N5 cabin cars. There were some N8 s but they are gone. I never saw an N5c. Most of what I saw last year I believe were New Haven cars originally. Rumor has it that some wealthy individual was planning a caboose motel type thing with them. He owned the yard also and has since sold half of it to a Clinton County businesses association who wanted to keep him from selling off the large cranes in the shops there. These are reported to be the largest overhead shop cranes east of the mississippi. He intended to sell the other half of the yard to the same association but I don't know if that went through. I will be visiting Renovo the last two weeks of October will let you know what is up after that. The coaling tower still stands. Efforts have been made to donate it to someone willing to take care of it,but Renovo is a very poor town. I don't know what will become of it. I have told individuals in the historical society that this may be one of the last of its kind in PA, possibly a tourist attraction and it should be preserved somehow. --Greg Stone member PRRTHS interest in Renovo Yards ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 22:15:13 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabooses at Renovo From: rbreon@juno.com "Rick" requested this be reposted. Here is my question and Greg's reply. Roy Breon --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- From: "Greg Stone" To: Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabooses at Renovo Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 18:13:08 -0700 Message-ID: <00ac01bdf3eb$24defea0$1f61efd1@default> The cabooses were owned by some wealthy individual who purchased the yard there. They were all ex- conrail livery. The rumor was that they were to be used as homes or rentals for hunters and fisherman or something on that order. They were sold off at scrap value to individuals who wanted to buy them. As of last year there were still several around. Only two or three were X- pennsy N5 cabin cars as in N5a or N5b. Was reported to be one of the earliest N5s built and was still available for around $4-5,000. Most that are left I think are ex New Haven cars but I am not certain on this. Several cars there were ex- Lehigh Valley but I believe these are all gone. If you are interested maybe I can find the owners address or phone number for you. Greg Stone GAS@fastinet.net -----Original Message----- From: rbreon@juno.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Friday, October 09, 1998 5:36 PM Subject: [PRR] Cabooses at Renovo >This message is really for Greg Stone as he signs his postings showing >"an interest in Renovo Yards". However, anyone can answer. > >About three years ago I was touring in the Renovo area and noticed a >large quantity of cabooses stored in the Renovo Yards. I don't remember >what livery that had on them. Why were they there and are they still >there? > >Roy Breon > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Sharks - Learned Something New Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 23:39:19 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell On 9 Oct, Jerry wrote: > [ ... ] The change from five stripe to single wide stripe for > passenger units -- due to cost -- began in 1954. [ ... ] Ah, but what month? We both model September 1954, I believe... Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 01:20:11 -0500 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] surviving GG-1s Hello all, Read a post in the 10/10 PRR-talk digest which mentioned in passing about a GG-1 in a museum in Virginia. As a matter of curiosity, how many surviving PRR electrics are there? We have a GG-1 and one of the original P5s here at the National Museum of Transport in St. Louis. Anyone? Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 00:37:18 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] renovo cabooses Forget about saving the coaling tower at Renovo. The site has been sold to a rr car rebuilder from Va. I believe. They intend to use the old shop facilities to rebuild cars for NS. I think NS was instrumental in getting them to relocate there. They have stated that they will provide 200-300 jobs for the area something that Renovo needs. It will be good to see the facility working again. Ken McCorry ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Sean121982@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 02:31:44 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] surviving GG-1s the first GG1 ever built is located at the railroad museum of PA in strasburg, PA. there is also another GG1 at the railroaders memorial museum in altoona, PA; albeit in much worse condition. i remember hearing talk of another GG1 which is privately owned in hoboken, NJ. together with the one in st louis, that makes at least 4 survivors. sean mcd ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 05:55:03 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] surviving GG-1s In a message dated 10/10/98 3:25:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Sean121982@aol.com writes: > the first GG1 ever built is located at the railroad museum of PA in strasburg, > > PA. there is also another GG1 at the railroaders memorial museum in altoona, > PA; albeit in much worse condition. i remember hearing talk of another GG1 > which is privately owned in hoboken, NJ. together with the one in st louis, > that makes at least 4 survivors. There is two GG1s at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, one inside andd one outside in the yard. Harold Modeling the Middle Division ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis F. Cramer" Subject: [PRR] Coal Tower Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 06:48:47 -0400 For those of you interested in saving a coal tower, there is one on the Allegheny Valley Branch jsut north of Redbank Creek along side the Allegheny River. The Rails to Trails group from Armstrong County, PA is interested in preserving the tower and nearby tunnel. You can view the tower at: http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/6652/coaltower.jpg DFCramer--Teacher,Trombonist, Historian, Conductor dfc1@alltel.net Come Play With Us, Come Hear Us Play http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/6652 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 08:54:59 -0400 From: DDembinski Subject: Re: [PRR] Production of The Keystone To minimize the size/expense of this project, the society could just do part of the back issues: maybe something like "The First Five Years". Regarding the manpower issue, everything can be outsourced. There are several companies local to me that do this sort of thing on a commercial basis, and I'm sure that there must be lots of them in the Philadelphia area. Sure this costs money, but it's cheaper than you would think and the PRRT&HS just prices the CD to cover their costs plus a profit for the organization. The society could contract to have the pages scanned as Acrobat files. Then, someone with a CD-R writer (around $300, but lots of people already have one) makes duplicate CDs as necessary to fill orders. That way the society doesn't have 350 CDs on the shelf waiting to be sold, with their capital tied up in it. To further minimize expenses, the pages can just be scanned as images, without rekeying or OCR (optical character recognition). Sure, a search feature wouldn't be possible then, but we've still have the pages and be able to view and print them. The only wrinkle in this is that CD-Rs are only good for about ten years, as opposed to CDs you buy in the stores; they're made using a different process. You'll want to print out a paper copy for long term use. Dale Jerry wrote: > E-mailed Chuck Blardone about how The Keystone is produced. Asked him to > overlook whether or not he supported our CD-ROM ideas, but to just answer > some questions about how the piece is done so we could "size up" the > process of potentially releasing it electronically. > > It's all pretty much bad news. Despite the fact that this is one of the > best topical magazines out there, it's still produced pretty much > traditionally. Chuck does do the editing on a computer and ship a disk to > the printer, but it's just in manuscript format, with directions to the > printer to lay it out with "this photo here" and "this photo there". > Chuck is not doing the layout. > > That also means that there are no back issues archived electronically. > > As for going forward, into the electronic design era, Chuck had this to > say, "I don't have the time to do all of this work; if it was a job > requirement, you'd have another editor." That says a lot, cause Chuck > does a great job at it. The society cannot afford to lose him. > > On 10/9/98 8:12 PM, Charles Blardone, Jr. (xxxxxxxxx) wrote: > > >The Directors of the PRRT&HS are holding their semiannual meeting next > >Saturday. I attend and give a "State of "The Keystone"" report. I will > >also bring up this question concerning CD-ROM versions. You're not the > >first person to ask about the possibility. However, finding dependable > >manpower to handle such projects has doomed other ideas to oblivion. > > I have volunteered myself to assist. However, the board must first > overcome its fear of electronic medium. > > ----------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com > "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com > ----------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "N Campbell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Sharks - Learned Something New Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 09:48:41 -0400 Tom, Hate to say it but the BF-16s weren't there yet, but the RF15s were. All of these engines had the 5 stripe on DGLE, with some lasting until the early 60s. Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 10:20:41 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] surviving GG-1s For complete GG1 information, and what is left and where, check out the GG1 homepage - http://www.spikesys.com/gg1.html . cos Sean121982@aol.com wrote: > the first GG1 ever built is located at the railroad museum of PA in strasburg, > PA. there is also another GG1 at the railroaders memorial museum in altoona, > PA; albeit in much worse condition. i remember hearing talk of another GG1 > which is privately owned in hoboken, NJ. together with the one in st louis, > that makes at least 4 survivors. > > sean mcd > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FRANKGARON@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 10:15:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] surviving GG-1s As we speak, Rick Rowlands and I are forming a non profit organization to lease/purchase 4932/4934 up in Cooperstown Jct, NY, with the eye to restore 4934 to running order and use 4932 for parts. This month marks 15 years since 4877 & company lowered their pans that last day in South Amboy. We are working hard to make 4934 run again by October, 2003 - the 20 year anniversary. We are laying the ground work for a credible, organized restoration effort. They did it with FOGG and 4935 back in 1977. WE CAN do it agian, but we need YOUR help! research, labor, donations, etc. If they can restore 2!!! Soo Line steam engines, we should be able to get at least 1 G running. It's a shame we don't have one yet. PRR fans unite! We will be forming a website and mailing list for this project very shortly. If anyone is interested, please contact me off list. Comments welcome! Respectfully, Frank Garon Perth Amboy, NJ ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry and Phyllis Morgan" Subject: RE: [PRR] surviving GG-1s Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 09:07:18 -0400 I have a link to a WEB page devoted to this topic. http://www.arc.umn.edu/~wes/misc/GG1.html I could not open it today, so it may no longer be active. Jerry may already have a link to the site. Larry Morgan -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Sean121982@aol.com Sent: Saturday, October 10, 1998 1:32 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] surviving GG-1s the first GG1 ever built is located at the railroad museum of PA in strasburg, PA. there is also another GG1 at the railroaders memorial museum in altoona, PA; albeit in much worse condition. i remember hearing talk of another GG1 which is privately owned in hoboken, NJ. together with the one in st louis, that makes at least 4 survivors. sean mcd ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 10:33:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] surviving GG-1s On Sat, 10 Oct 1998, Larry and Phyllis Morgan wrote: > I have a link to a WEB page devoted to this topic. > http://www.arc.umn.edu/~wes/misc/GG1.html > > I could not open it today, so it may no longer be active. Looks like the machine just isn't servicing requests; It's probably still there. -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVPedro@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 10:50:04 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] surviving GG-1s The Following is a list of Surviving GG-1 s and their owners No Builder Location 4800 BLW/GE, 8/34, CN 11646 RR Museum of Pennsylvania in Strasburg, PA. Owned by the Lancaster Chapter of NRHS 4859 1937 Harrisburg Railroad Station, Harrisburg, PA. 4876 1940 B&O Transportation Musuem, Baltimore, MD. (ex NJ Transit Collection) (this is the GG-1 that crashed into the main concourse of the Washington Union Station in 1953) 4877 United Railroad Historical Society of NJ (stored at Hoboken by NJ Transit) 4879 United Railroad Historical Society of NJ (stored at Hoboken by NJ Transit) 4882 1939 National New York Central Railroad Museum, Elkhart, IN. (Acquired from NJ Transit) 4890 1940 National Railroad Museum in Green Bay, WI (ex B&O Transportation Musuem, Baltimore, MD.) 4903 1940 Age of Steam Museum, Dallas, TX. Ex PRR 4903, ex Amtrak 906, ex Amtrak 4906 (Acquired via a trade with the Lakeshore R. R. Club of Elkhart, IN.) (this is the GG-1 that pulled the Robert Kennedy funeral train from New York to Washington, DC) 4913 1942 Railroaders Memorial Musuem in Altoona, PA 4916 1942 National Transportation Museum at St. Louis, MO Ex PRR 4918, ex Amtrak 916 4919 1942 Roanoke Virgina Museum of Transportation, Roanoke, VA Owned by the Roanoke Chapter of NRHS Ex PRR 4917, then 4934, then 4919 4926 1943 NY State Fair Grounds, Syracuse, NY Ex PRR 4933, ex Amtrak 926 Owned by the Central NY Chapter of NRHS 4932 1942 Leatherstocking Ry. Museum, Cooperstown Jct, NY Ex PRR 4909 4935 Juniata, 3/43, CN 4434 RR Museum of Pennsylvania in Strasburg, PA. 4939 1942 Illinois Railway Musuem in Union, IL Ex PRR 4927 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 00:23:09 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Sharks - Learned Something New Hi All, "the BP-20 and BF-16 were in service in 1950." Correct for all BP20s (shipped 6/48-12/48) and BF16s #9708A-9708B-9709A (shipped 12/50). Other sharks extant in 1950 were BF15 and BF15a (shipped 2/49-6/50). Source: Diesels from Eddystone:The Story of Baldwin Diesel Locomotives by Dolzall and Dolzall. Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 13:30:42 -0400 From: Jeff Levine Subject: Re: [PRR] surviving GG-1s Hal6963@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 10/10/98 3:25:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > Sean121982@aol.com writes: > > > the first GG1 ever built is located at the railroad museum of PA in > strasburg, > > > > PA. there is also another GG1 at the railroaders memorial museum in > altoona, > > PA; albeit in much worse condition. i remember hearing talk of another GG1 > > which is privately owned in hoboken, NJ. together with the one in st louis, > > that makes at least 4 survivors. > > There is two GG1s at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, one inside andd one > outside in the yard. > > Harold > Modeling the Middle Division > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Oh yeah, Elkhart Indiana too. See it every time I take the Lake Shore LTD to Chicago. Jeff Levine ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 13:29:33 -0400 From: Jeff Levine Subject: Re: [PRR] surviving GG-1s Sean121982@aol.com wrote: > > the first GG1 ever built is located at the railroad museum of PA in strasburg, > PA. there is also another GG1 at the railroaders memorial museum in altoona, > PA; albeit in much worse condition. i remember hearing talk of another GG1 > which is privately owned in hoboken, NJ. together with the one in st louis, > that makes at least 4 survivors. > > sean mcd > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". There is a GG1 in Syracuse New York owned by the NRHS local chapter I believe. The public gets to see it each year if they come to the New York State Fair. Jeff Levine ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 12:51:47 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Sharks - Learned Something New Tom, BP-20's were delivered between June and December 1948 BF-16's were delivered between December 1950 and June 1952. Randy LINESWEST@aol.com on 10/09/98 04:43:32 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com cc: (bcc: Randy Williamson/Marathon) Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Sharks - Learned Something New Hold on, now. AFter blowing it on the freight car quiz last week, I'm little charry about voicing any op inion on paint schemes. But the one I do know is that by modeling 1950, all my motive power will be DGLE and I'm fairly sure the BP-20 and BF-16 were in service in 1950. Or am I wrong again? Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 14:12:43 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] GG-1 4935&4876 Hello you all.... In looking at the GG-1 list i noticed both 4935 and 4876. I have seen both of these engines in person. About three years ago while visiting my relatives up in Baltimore i saw 4876 sitting under the I-95 bridge in western Baltimore.This is at a site the B&O museum uses for storage of museum equipment.Some where near Edmonson Ave. near a dead end street along the CSX tracks. It looked worse for wear,but still basically intact (except for pans,which i guess they had stored somewhere.)It is (or was if they moved it)behind a high fence along with a caboose and a old baggage car. It was still painted in black and hed its number on it. If anyone can give me a update on it please let me know as this engine has always been one of my favorite G's. Also i might be able to get one of my brothers to check on it and give me a report.Hopefully when the B&O museum gets around to restoring 4876 they will give it the Tuscan five stripe paint job it got after the crash. Now back in the mid seventies i was on hand at Penn Station Baltimore for the arrival of the last RPO train run in the states. At the headend of this train was 4935..all in DGLE and five stripes then... This being the last run of trains 3 and 4 would mean that 4935 was the last engine (let alone GG-1) to pull a RPO train. I still have a cancelled letter from that train. Years later i got to see 4935 at Strasburg in the museum,Still great looking on its five stripe paint job. Til Later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Cabin Car color post-1954 Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 14:19:32 -0700 In an issue of the keystone the color of cabin cars is discussed at length. Prior to the premerger orange during the shadow keystone era, post-1954, cabin cars seem to be more than just frieght car color with black roofs. I wasn't born untill 1959, but it seems to me the cars were more red than freight car brownish red. Many photos seem to support this. Heck even the museum at strassburg painted their N5c red. So what is the story here ? Can anyone recommend a model paint for this color? Greg ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 18:29:45 EDT Subject: [PRR] surviving GG-1s In a message dated 10/10/98 1:28:34 AM Central Daylight Time, rboydrrs@inlink.com writes: << As a matter of curiosity, how many surviving PRR electrics are there? We have a GG-1 and one of the original P5s here at the National Museum of Transport in St. Louis. Anyone? >> GG1s at Green Bay, Wisconsin and Union, Illinois. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TodEngine@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 19:55:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] surviving GG-1s In a message dated 98-10-10 10:34:11 EDT, you write: > As we speak, Rick Rowlands and I are forming a non profit organization to > lease/purchase 4932/4934 up in Cooperstown Jct, NY, with the eye to restore > 4934 to running order and use 4932 for parts. > Yes it is true, we have plans in the works for restoring a GG-1. I have already been in touch with a company that can build us a new transformer, and we are looking into the possibility of replacing some of the questionable compnents with more modern equipment. Our goal is to produce a GG-1 of extremely high reliability and able to meet all criteria for high speed NEC operation. Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TodEngine@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 20:07:17 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] surviving GG-1s In a message dated 98-10-10 18:51:59 EDT, you write: > We have a GG-1 and one of the original P5s here at the National Museum of > Transport in St. Louis. > I know this may ruffle a few feathers, but shouldn't that P5 be in Strasburg with the GG1, B5 and DD1 so that visitors could see the entire development of electric motive power on the PRR? For visitors, they see the 1910 side rod DD1 and then the next example is the GG1. People wonder about what came in between. Sure would be a great educational experience if they could show the P5 as the "missing link". Of course this IS St. Louis, the home of the DL&W camelback! Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 20:02:34 EDT Subject: [PRR] Hammerhead RS3/ Emporium Pennsy Folks, The November RMC has an article about kitbashing Pennsy's high hood RS3, which was stationed at Emporium. There's a couple photos taken at Renovo, in it's later days, repainted in preparation for the Great Atrocity PC. The author states that the unit was bought for a tripple purpose: local freight duty, to protect the "local passenger train" (by this I assume the Erie train), and to serve as a helper. What I'm wondering is whether the unit ever actually worked the intended passenger service, and if the local freight service was performed on both the Erie line and over Keating Summit on the Buffalo line. I know a lot of you folks are interested in this part of the Pennsy and probably have a good idea of what went on up there in the wilderness. As the area is pretty isolated today, I can imagine what it was like in the 50's. A great region of our favorite railroad. Thanks in advance. Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TodEngine@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 19:50:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal Tower In a message dated 98-10-10 07:16:20 EDT, you write: > For those of you interested in saving a coal tower, there is one on the > Allegheny Valley Branch jsut north of Redbank Creek along side the > Allegheny River. The Rails to Trails group from Armstrong County, PA is > interested in preserving the tower and nearby tunnel. You can view the > tower at: http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/6652/coaltower.jpg I suppose the rails will be torn up soon? But that is a beautiful tower and worthy of preservation. What's their plans? Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TodEngine@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 19:42:48 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] renovo cabooses In a message dated 98-10-10 00:50:06 EDT, you write: > Forget about saving the coaling tower at Renovo. The site has been sold to a > rr car rebuilder from Va. I believe. They intend to use the old shop > facilities to rebuild cars for NS. I think NS was instrumental in getting > them > to relocate there. They have stated that they will provide 200-300 jobs for > the area something that Renovo needs. It will be good to see the facility > working again. Ken McCorry Darn!!! :-) Oh well, I guess the owner of those cabooses is going to be looking to move them out of there rather quickly, or we may lose them. I would love to get that Erie cab sitting inside one of the buildings. Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RLA0220@webtv.net (RICHARD ADER) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 21:04:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Hammerhead RS3 Hi, Can anyone tell me what is meant by: "Protect" local passenger train (mentioned in the Nov. RMC) What is meant by protect? Thanks Rich ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 21:49:46 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: [PRR] renovo cabooses Greg Stone wrote: >... > I will be visiting Renovo the last two weeks of October will let > you know what is up after that. > The coaling tower still stands. Efforts have been made to donate > it to someone willing to take care of it,but Renovo is a very poor > town. I don't know what will become of it. I have told individuals in > the historical society that this may be one of the last of its kind in > PA, possibly a tourist attraction and it should be preserved somehow. > FYI, I have picture of the Renovo shop, coal tower & walkway on my site: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/renovo.htm -- Jerry Shickler e-mail: geshick@velocity.net ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 23:03:57 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Slim gaauge book on eBay Hey Guys Ebay item #34050980 is a copy of "Bent, Crooked & Zig-zagged" on the narrow gauge Bellaire, Caldwell & Zanesville RR, original name of the PRR's Ohio River & Western, Ohio's last NG line. Auction ends 8:50 a.m. EST Monday. Bidding's already outta my league at $51.50. And yeah, those are my kits listed in Model Railroad Scale: HO, OO, TT. For a full list, punch in lineswest@aol.com into the sellers' search window on the main eBay search. I''ll save ya' some time. Anything remotely Pennsy I keep. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: [PRR] Re: "Protect" Locals Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 22:49:16 -0400 Believe that this term indicates that the loco was an extra that staged and was to be used as a back up if the regular locomotive for the local were to fail. Passenger schedules were sacred in days past..... Dennis Mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES (732) 271-0800 Voice http://www.onerrave.com (732) 271-0805 FAX 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Renovo Coaling Tower Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 20:22:01 -0700 Hold on just a second guys. Lets not just "forget" the Renovo coaling tower. I am not so certain that the yard was "sold". More likely it is being leased. As I wrote before half the yard, that portion including the shops with cranes and coaling tower, is owned by a Clinton County Business Association. Their purpose in purchasing the shops and half the yard was to prevent the shops and cranes from being lost so that jobs could be retained or made in Renovo. They intended to donate the tower for preservation. Even if the shops were sold I am not certain the tower was included. As for the cabooses they are in the other half of the yard which as of last I heard were still owned seperately. Some of the shop buildings from, I believe, the transfer table to the east is still owned by the man who owned the cabooses. I will be in Renovo October 18th for two weeks. I will look into this. For now, I have an E-mail into my family who still lives back there. Let's not give up so easily! Greg Stone Member PRRTHS Interest in Renovo Yards ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 22:23:29 -0700 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: [PRR] GG-1 4935&4876 Greetings, As of about five years ago, the B&O RR Museum's intentions regarding the paint scheme to be used on #4876 was to restore it to be the same as the day it crashed through the station. I was the one who gave them the information at the time. Their problem, like many other museums, is lack of sufficient funds and volunteers to do all that needs to be done soon enough to prevent major deterioration beyond what is already present. That's why it's still in storage. When I was there, it was right in back of one of the shop buildings. Chuck Friedlein bubbles@visi.net wrote: > > Hello you all.... > > In looking at the GG-1 list i noticed both 4935 and 4876. > > I have seen both of these engines in person. About three years ago > while visiting my relatives up in Baltimore i saw 4876 sitting under > the I-95 bridge in western Baltimore.This is at a site the B&O > museum uses for storage of museum equipment.Some where near > Edmonson Ave. near a dead end street along the CSX tracks. > It looked worse for wear,but still basically intact (except for pans,which > i guess they had stored somewhere.)It is (or was if they moved it)behind > a high fence along with a caboose and a old baggage car. It was still > painted in black and hed its number on it. If anyone can give me a update > on it please let me know as this engine has always been one of my > favorite G's. Also i might be able to get one of my brothers to > check on it and give me a report.Hopefully when the B&O museum gets > around to restoring 4876 they will give it the Tuscan five stripe > paint job it got after the crash. > > Now back in the mid seventies i was on hand at Penn Station Baltimore > for the arrival of the last RPO train run in the states. At the headend > of this train was 4935..all in DGLE and five stripes then... > This being the last run of trains 3 and 4 would mean that 4935 > was the last engine (let alone GG-1) to pull a RPO train. I still have > a cancelled letter from that train. Years later i got to see 4935 > at Strasburg in the museum,Still great looking on its five stripe > paint job. > > Til Later > Hank Mummert > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 00:26:26 -0500 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] Tom V's roster? >From: LINESWEST@aol.com >- - punch in lineswest@aol.com into the sellers' search window on the >main eBay search. I''ll save ya' some time. Anything remotely Pennsy I keep. > > Tom V. ===== Well, gee, Tom, does this mean you run Con-cor highliners and dome cars painted tuscan red? Inquiring minds want to know. Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 01:14:10 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: [PRR] Shark Dates (Long) Hi All, For those interested I've compiled this list from one of my favorite books, Dolzall & Dolzall's "Diesels from Eddystone:The Story of Baldwin Diesel Locomotives" for some Baldwin web pages I'm working on. Note: I've re-arranged the list to reflect the order the units arrived on the property: Streamlined Passenger-Service Units DR-6-4-2000 (606SC Powered) Pennsylvania (A Units) 18 Pennsy # Baldwin # Delivered 5770A-5771A 73505-73506 6/48 5772A-5773A 73507-73508 8/48 5774A-5775A 73509-73510 9/48 5776A-5777A 73511-73512 10/48 5778A-5779A 73513-73514 10/48 5780A-5781A 73515-73516 10/48 5782A-5783A 73517-73518 11/48 5784A-5785A 73519-73520 11/48 5786A-5787A 73521-73522 12/48 Pennsylvania (B Units) 9 5770B 73523 6/48 5772B 73524 8/48 5774B 73525 9/48 5776B 73526 10/48 5778B 73527 10/48 5780B 73528 10/48 5782B 73529 11/48 5784B 73530 11/48 5786B 73531 12/48 Streamlined Freight-Service Units DR-4-4-1500 Sharknose Pennsylvania (A Units) 34 9568A-9569A 73697,73700 2/49 9570A-9571A 73701,73704 3/49 9572A-9573A 73705,73996 3/49 9574A 73985 3/49 9575A 74142 3/49 9576A 74143 4/49 95778A-9578A 74146-74147 4/49 9579A 74150 4/49 9580A 74151 5/49 9581A-9582A 74154-74155 5/49 9583A-9584A 74158-74159 5/49 9585A 74162 5/49 9586A 74163 6/49 9587A-9588A 74166-74167 6/49 9589A 74170 6/49 9590A 74171 7/49 9591A-9592A 74174-74175 7/49 9593A 74177 7/49 9700A-9701A 74441-74442 4/50 9702A-9703A 74444-74445 5/50 9704A-9705A 74439,74447 5/50 9706A-9707A 74448,74450 6/50 Pennsylvania (B Units) 34 9568B-9569B 73698-73699 2/49 9570B-9571B 73702-73703 3/49 9572B-9573B 73964-73965 3/49 9574B-9575B 73986-73987 3/49 9576B-9577B 74144-74145 3/49 9578B-9579B 74148-74149 4/49 9580B-9581B 74152-74153 5/49 9582B-9583B 74156-74157 5/49 9584B-9585B 74160-74161 5/49 9586B-9587B 74164-74165 6/49 9588B-9589B 74168-74169 6/49 9590B-9591B 74172-74173 7/49 9592B-9593B 74176,74178 7/49 9700B 74440 4/50 9701B 74443 4/50 9702B 74446 5/50 9703B 74449 5/50 9704B 74748 5/50 9705B 74749 5/50 9706B 74750 6/50 9707B 74751 6/50 RF16 Sharknose Pennsylvania (A Units) 72 9708A-9709A 74819-74820 12/50 9710A-9715A 74821-74826 1/51 9740A-9743A 74827-74830 2/51 9744A-9745A 74989-74990 2/51 9728A-9731A 74991-74994 2/51 9716A-9727A 74995-75006 3/51 9732A-9733A 74847-74848 4/51 9594A-9599A 74849-74854 4/51 9734A-9735A 74855-74856 5/51 9736A-9739A 75112-75115 5/51 2000A-2003A 75197-75200 6/51 2004A-2005A 75201-75202 7/51 2006A-2007A 75203-75204 9/51 2008A-2009A 75205-75206 10/51 2010A-2015A 75207-75212 2/52 2016A-2017A 75213-75214 3/52 2018A-2019A 75358-75359 3/52 2020A-2021A 75378-75379 3/52 2022A-2027A 75380-75385 4/52 Pennsylvania (B Units) 30 9708B 74831 12/50 9710B,9712B, 9714B 74832-74834 1/51 9740B,9742B, 9744B 74835-74837 2/51 9728B,9730B 74838-74839 2/51 9732B 74840 4/51 9594B,9596B, 9598B 74841-74843 4/51 9734B,9736B, 9738B 74844-74846 5/51 2000B-2002B 75215-75216 6/51 2004B 75217 7/51 2006B 75218 9/51 2008B 75219 10/51 2010B,2012B, 2014B 75220-75222 2/52 2016B 75223 3/52 2018B 75400 3/52 2020B 75409 3/52 2022B,2024B, 2026B 75410-75412 4/52 My BP20's are numbered 5776A-5776B-5777A and are painted in the "as delivered" DGLE w/o nose stripes. My freight sharks numbers are undecided as yet, but the paint schemes will be: 2 A's in 5-stripe w/o nose stripes 2 A's in 5-stripe w/ nose stripes 2 A's in single-stripe 2 B's in 5-stripe 2 B's in single stripe ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis F. Cramer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal Tower Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 08:52:47 -0400 . > > I suppose the rails will be torn up soon? But that is a beautiful tower and > worthy of preservation. What's their plans? > > Rick The rails are gone, the photo is several years old, but the tower is still there. The local Rails to Trails would like to save the tower but as of right now they have no game plan. They have had a difficult time with the locals and the idea of "outsiders" walking the trail. If persons are interested, write to me off the list and I will provide an e-mail address to an active member of the Rails to Trails group here in Armstrong County. DFCramer--Teacher,Trombonist, Historian, Conductor dfc1@alltel.net Come Play With Us, Come Hear Us Play http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/6652 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 10:35:38 -0500 From: Bob Poortinga Subject: Re: [PRR] GG-1 4876 Chuck Friedlein reports: > As of about five years ago, the B&O RR Museum's intentions regarding the > paint scheme to be used on #4876 was to restore it to be the same as the > day it crashed through the station. I was the one who gave them the > information at the time. > > Their problem, like many other museums, is lack of sufficient funds and > volunteers to do all that needs to be done soon enough to prevent major > deterioration beyond what is already present. That's why it's still in > storage. When I was there, it was right in back of one of the shop > buildings. I spent a few days at the B&O museum in the summer of '97 helping move a CSS&SB interurban car from Baltimore to Michigan City, IN. I got a chance to talk to the person (Dennis Fulton? damn, I'm bad with names) who is in charge of acquistions and got the distinct impression that in the future ONLY B&O/C&O equipment will be restored. Equipment from other roads will be held in reserve for sale or trade in exchange for B&O equipment. The CSS&SB car that we moved was acquired from them in exchange for an ex-B&O coach (Slumberland?). I would that the chances of the B&O museum restoring a GG-1 are nil. Anyone care to make them an offer? -- Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) Bloomington, Indiana USA ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 08:57:00 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabooses at Renovo ---rbreon@juno.com wrote: > > This message is really for Greg Stone as he signs his postings showing > "an interest in Renovo Yards". However, anyone can answer. > > About three years ago I was touring in the Renovo area and noticed a > large quantity of cabooses stored in the Renovo Yards. I don't remember > what livery that had on them. Why were they there and are they still > there? > > Roy Breon > > Longer ago than that, I saw a large number (50? 60?) of cabooses stored in the east end of the old yard. All were blue with various varieties of Conrail markings. Near one of the buildings was one in new bright red paint with lettering and some sort of herald which I couldn't make out at the distance. I was told that someone had bought a pile of Conrail cabooses and was hoping to make his fortune reconditioning them and selling them to whomever. A while later (maybe two years ago), I went by there and saw the field of cabooses, looking little different from on the earlier visit. I suspect the caboose rebuilding business turned out less brisk than had been hoped. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 08:10:45 -0700 From: Frank Bagrash Subject: [PRR] number help Hi, Unfortunately, my books with PRR electrics numbering series are in storage, so I need some help. What were the number series for the E3b's and the R1d's.? Thanks. Were there any major repaintings of these during their careers, or what scheme was used for them? Frank ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 18:09:13 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Boxcar, Gondola, Covered hopper schemes As some of you know, for the past year-and-a-half I've been extending the classification of PRR standard paint schemes from Brady McGuire's boxcar article to other car types. This is done by classifying a large population of photographs from either paint dates shown or known date of the photo. At this time, I've classified 850 slides and published photos, including 303 freight cars pictured in the Keystone. The table shown below suggests there was great stability in PRR's application of a paint scheme version; as we'd expect, observed start dates are consistent across car types. The table shows: 1. Phase abbreviation. UK (unshaded keystone) is exactly the same as Brady's PK (plain keystone) phase. 2. Brady's start and end dates for boxcars 3. Earliest date in boxcar photos I've indexed. 4. Earliest date in gondola photos I've indexed. 5. Earliest date in covered hopper photos I've indexed. Phase McGuire Boxcar Boxcar Gondola Covered hopper NK1 1875-1896 1876 1874* none NK2 1898-1906 1898 1896 none NK3 1906-1926 1909 1915 none NK4 1926-1930 1929 1930 none CK 1930-1954 1932 1930 1931 SK1a 1954-1954 1954 none 1954 SK1b 1954-1957 1954 1958** 1955 SK2a 1957-1960 1957 1957 1957 SK2a1 none*** 1960 none none SK2b 1960-1961 1960 1961 1961 UK 1961-1968 1961 1962 1961 * one gondola photo found in two different publications appears to conform to NK1, but appears in 1874, a year earlier than Brady's earliest boxcar pic, and two years earlier than my earliest box pic. ** earliest pic found is dated 1958, but paint date is not readable *** sub-version of SK2a identified, but only 2 examples found (both insulated boxcars) Data for hoppers also run similarly. Data for flat cars is consistent, but flat car phases are difficult to classify because the car carries less lettering and often no keystone. Data for cabin cars is also consistent, but with one real curiosity. Excepting N8 construction, few cabin cars carried the keystone in the CK era. As a result, most of these cabins were painted identically to the NK4 marking scheme. Further, since no known cabins appeared in the short-lived SK1a scheme, the bulk of Pennsy cabins stayed NK4 until painted SK1b or a later standard scheme. As we know, cabin color changed to Focal Orange in 1965, but the white UK lettering stencils stayed the same from 1961 to the merger in 1968. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Fw: [PRR] number help Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 18:35:19 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: jbreon To: Frank Bagrash Date: Sunday, October 11, 1998 6:33 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] number help >Hi Frank, > According to Staufer's Pennsy Power III there were two E3b units >built in 1951 by Baldwin Westinghouse and were numbered 4995 and 4996. These >wore the single narrow stripe on a DGLE body. > Not sure what an R1d is, but the one and only R1 was built in 1933 >again by Baldwin Westinghouse and was originally numbered 4800 when built. >It was changed to 4899 in November, 1934 and then changed to 4999 in March, >1940. It wore a handsome multi-striped (not the traditional 5 stripe) scheme >on a DGLE body. A similar scheme was used on the streamlined (modified) >P5a's built after May 1, 1934. >Jerry Breon >-----Original Message----- >From: Frank Bagrash >To: PRR-Talk >Date: Sunday, October 11, 1998 11:52 AM >Subject: [PRR] number help > > >>Hi, >> >>Unfortunately, my books with PRR electrics numbering series are in >>storage, so I need some help. What were the number series for the E3b's >>and the R1d's.? Thanks. Were there any major repaintings of these during >>their careers, or what scheme was used for them? >> >>Frank >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >>------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 23:10:09 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: NSINFO@nscorp.com: [railroad] Implementation Update, From: rbreon@juno.com Might be to avoid any conflict with CSX cars that may have the same numbers? Anyone know?? Roy Breon On Sun, 11 Oct 1998 22:19:17 -0000 "Tom Breon" writes: > >This explains why I haven't seen any PRR reporting marks. > >The bigger question is why restencil any cars for NYC? Why noy just >change >them diectely to CSX? > > >-----Original Message----- >From: rbreon@juno.com >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; jbreon@email.msn.com >; breon_ts@msn.com >Date: Saturday, October 10, 1998 1:07 AM >Subject: NSINFO@nscorp.com: [railroad] Implementation Update, >10/9/1998 > > >>FYI. >> >>Roy Breon >> >> >>--------- Begin forwarded message ---------- >>From: NSINFO@nscorp.com >>To: >>Subject: [railroad] Implementation Update, 10/9/1998 >>Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 16:21:13 -0400 >>Message-ID: <199810092021.QAA14499@webserver2.nscorp.com> >> >>Implementation Update >>(Available on the World Wide Web at >>http://www.nscorp.com/nscorp/html/update/) >> >>October 9, 1998 >>Norfolk Southern Public Relations >>Headline >> Conrail freight car restenciling project under way. To minimize >>disruptions for customers and field operating personnel, NS, CSX and >>Conrail have implemented plans to restencil 12,000 of the 16,000 >>freight cars allocated to New York Central Lines LLC, a wholly owned >>subsidiary of Conrail, with NYC reporting marks. The NYC reporting >>marks will be assigned to CSX effective the Closing Date. Freight >cars >>allocated to Pennsylvania Lines LLC, also a wholly owned subsidiary >of >>Conrail, will retain their existing marks and paint schemes. All >>reporting marks other than NYC will be assigned to NS effective the >>Closing Date. > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 08:57:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark D Bej Subject: RE: [PRR] surviving GG-1s On Sat, 10 Oct 1998, Larry and Phyllis Morgan wrote: > > I have a link to a WEB page devoted to this topic. > http://www.arc.umn.edu/~wes/misc/GG1.html > I could not open it today, so it may no longer be active. > Jerry may already have a link to the site. > Larry Morgan You may wish to see http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Fan/locomotives.html -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 09:51:31 -0700 (PDT) From: "R. P. Hensley" Subject: [PRR] Indiana NMRA Meet & Show NMRA Meet and Train Show In the heart of Monon (CSX) - Bedford Stone Country... November 7, 1998 (Saturday) - Bedford, Indiana Bedford National Guard Armory - 11 AM to 4 PM Dealers, Layouts, Clinics and Contests Located about 6 blocks from the Jr. High Gym. This location has better parking facilities, a kitchen, separate classrooms for clinics and a roll up door to give the dealers and layouts better access. Scheduled Clinics: Bill Jenkins, who has had his own experience in managing a private passenger car will provide a slide show of Amtrak equipment titled, "Rainbow to Genesis." Frank Hermaneck, award winning modeler, will do a clinic on adding detail parts to kits. For more information call: Bill Litkenhous at 812-275-3634 Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org === http://ecicnet.org/~rhensley/cidwelco.html ===================== === Homepage of the Central Indiana Division, Midwest Region NMRA == ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 98 12:03:11 CST Subject: [PRR] South Penn RR remains... Hi, all, Just got back from a four-day sojourn to the Keystone state, mostly for the EBT, but also for seeing some South Penn remains. I was impressed and amazed at what is out there. My first stop was the only remaining complete piece of stone arch construction on the line - the crossing over the B&O tracks just north of Somerset. The weather was crummy so I didn't do more than look from the car but that was pretty good. You drive north-northeast from Somerset on Rt. 333 (?? - may be wrong on this), roughly parallel to the B&O tracks heading toward Johnstown. The first left after you go under the new highway to Johnstown (Rt. 220, I think) takes you about 100 yds to a road bridge over the B&O. Just to the left you get a great view of the stone arch. The high fill on top is tree-covered but clearly a railroad grade. I'll have to go back in dry weather and get some photos. Coming back on Sunday, I made two stops westbound on the Tpk. At the east end of the west-bound Allegheny Mtn tunnel, I located the un-used portal of the SP tunnel. You have to hike up the road that circles up over the hwy tunnel and comes down on the eastbound side. At the top is a cleft in the mountain. You look over the mound of earth put there by the Tpk people and below is the original tunnel entrance. I was expecting it to be mostly filled with debris but it looks like many of the photos taken just before the Tpk construction started. The sun was still at an angle that illuminated the tunnel floor - it was incredible! I had no idea that ANY of the original tunnel entrances still looked so undisturbed. But the best was yet to come. BTW, the guy manning the Tpk facilities at the east portal was watching us pretty closely and the road to the tunnel mouth was posted no trespassing so my quick in and out was probably pushing the envelope of legality. If you want to see this for yourself, you may want to do it soon. At a later stop at a Tpk plaza, I happened upon a Tpk "newspaper" for the public which indicates that there is serious consideration being given to completely by-passing the existing Allegheny tunnels. The older of the two is in need of repairs and it may be easier to build a new Allegheny Mtn crossing. The paper showed five options, two of which involved new tunnels; the other three would be by-passes like the one at Laurel Hill. Public hearings have already been held in the area and target dates for construction are only a few years away. The point - if the existing Allegheny Mtn tunnels are abandoned, it will be much more difficult to see the SP tunnel. Next stop was at about MP 106.4, west of Somerset. As per Dan Cupper's instructions, literally right off the highway is another mound of earth. Standing on it and looking down, there was the east entrance to the Quemahoning tunnel, the one completed by the PW&S. Again I was blown away - I was expecting to just see the top of the arch, with the rest buried. But the whole portal is there, all the way to the tunnel floor. Moreover, I could easily see the wooden arch supports installed there by the PW&S! The visible ones appeared intact, the sun was at a good angle and I fired off some photos, which I will have back later today. I was just amazed that such visible remnants of the old South Penn could still be seen in such original condition. WARNING: DO NOT try to enter these tunnels! Most of you don't need to be told that but even if you tried, it would difficult to get down the earth mounds left by the Tpk crews and back up again. Second, both tunnels have water on their floors. Third, it's extremely dangerous to enter old tunnels like this anyway. Finally, if some fool tries this and gets into trouble, be sure that the Tpk will seal these tunnels off forever to prevent future accidents, thus also preventing the rest of us the pleasure of seeing the tunnels. Use common sense and care. I didn't have time to see anything else, although there are significant stretchs of SP grading that can be found - the area north of Somerset, the east side approaches to the Allegheny tunnels, the east side approaches to the now-abandoned Sideling Hill tunnel, some big fills between the now= abandoned Sideling Hill and Rays Hill tunnels, and the west side approaches to the Tuscarora Tunnels, which are south of Ft. Littleton. Most of these features are visible on the USGS topo maps. If you like seeing what the Commodore's people were planning to do to the PRR in the 1880's check out these sites - seeing tunnels abandoned since 1884 is an amazing experience. PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 98 12:14:32 CST Subject: [PRR] Visit to some PRR sites... Hi, all, On my way to the EBT Fall Spectacular (and it was!!), I managed to make a few PRR-related stops. First was the new RR Memorial Museum in Altoona. WOW!! Talk about a great experience - even the orientation video, with lots of footage of the shops was neat - the surround-sound during the hammer forging of siderods made the floor shake. This museum is a MUST SEE for the true-blue SPFer. Next was Huntingdon station and tower. The tower wasn't open but pretty neat anyway. Also the passenger shelter on the eastbound side of the station was original PRR wooden architecture - that's getting pretty rare along the Middle Div. The outside of the station was in fresh paint but the inside looks unused. Next was Lewistown - the station looks better and better. Also noticed that there are some old PRR pieces in the yard - an R50 (?) reefer body and what looks like an X29. Next was Denholm, site of the big coal wharf. The stone abutment on the south side was right next to the road. I'll have to go back and investigate further when the leaves are down, but it's hard to guess that this was once an extensive facility. BTW anyone know where the Vincent Logging rr and sawmill were located at Denholm - east or west of the coaling wharf? I'm guessing west but further info would help. Finally we paid a quick visit to Mifflin, where the brick station still stands. The down side? More and more position lights are gone, and the familiar PRR electro-pneumatic switch machines are also being phased out. While at the EBT, the folks who take care of the Huntingdon tower were there and had some nice PRR vintage photos of the area for sale. I'll post their address later - some of you might want to contact them. PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:52:38 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Re: [CR] Pittsburgh ---"J. Alex Lang" wrote: > > On Mon, 12 Oct 1998, Mark & Cynthia Du Vall wrote: > > > Hello All, > > Also at Cp Home we > > noticed what appeared to be a fly over of some kind. What was this line > > and is it still in service? > > Subdivision (used by the Capitol Ltd). That might be the flyover you saw; > I'm not sure on that one. > Regards, > -Alex > > > > Mark > > > > > > Once upon a time when the world was young and PRR was still in the passenger train business, there was a flyover near East Liberty station for eastbound passenger trains to cross over the main to get to the Brilliant Branch. As I recall, it was used chiefly by trains which went across to the west bank of the Allegheny. I think passenger trains running the east bank used a connection closer in to the Union Station, somewhere in the Strip District. But maybe not. The tracks were there to get from the Brilliant Branch down to the Conemaugh Division line on the east side of the river. Whether that flyover survived Penn Central, the Martin Luther King Busway, the new connection from Skunk Hollow up to the main line, I know not. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Centipedes Date: Mon, 12 Oct 98 16:01:08 -0400 From: Jerry I think many were surprised at how Miracle Castings did the BP20 Passenger Shark: supplying a resin chassis for mounting power trucks...rather than just slipping a shell over an existing powered chassis. With this approach being the case, are there comparable power trucks out there that could be paired up to create a BP60 Centipede? That's another unit that we're not likely to find in non-brass any time soon. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Request for Virtual Connections - Harrisburg, Pa. Date: Mon, 12 Oct 98 14:56:42 -0400 From: Jerry Looking for "virtual connections" for my "PRR at Harrisburg" layout in HO, set in 1954. I've already noted: * Ken McCorry - Rockville Bridge to Williamsport and beyond, 1962-68. * Hank Mummert - NCRy from York to Baltimore, 1946-56. * George Pierson - Mainline scenes of Port Royal and Denholm, 1950. * Bruce Smith - Columbia, Pa., 1944-45. (inc. Columbia Branch, Atglen & Susquehanna Branch, Columbia & Port Deposit Branch, Wrightsville Branch) Looking for any others modeling near Harrisburg, particularly main line just east of Harrisburg, main line just west of Harrisburg, Cumberland Valley Branch, etc. Also would like to find all others modeling the Harrisburg Station area, and what timeframe. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: HGordon552@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 16:38:58 EDT Subject: [PRR] test plant I am interested in information on the Altoona test plant, as shown on page 199 and page 219 of Pennsy Power. Do the blue prints exist for this test station and or any further photographs or written information. I am planing on building a display base using the idea of this test plant, has anyone done this before as a working or static model? Thanks, Harold Gordon ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 16:10:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Centipedes On Mon, 12 Oct 1998, Jerry wrote: > With this approach being the case, are there comparable power trucks out > there that could be paired up to create a BP60 Centipede? That's another > unit that we're not likely to find in non-brass any time soon. Read the archives of the list; I know we discussed it some time back; One possibility was the Athearn DD40 trucks, but it would almost seem the right way would actually be to build a drive train somehow. An inboard truck frame like newer Athearn trucks and sideframes would be best -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 16:15:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [CR] Pittsburgh > Once upon a time when the world was young and PRR was > still in the passenger train business, there was a > flyover near East Liberty station for eastbound > passenger trains to cross over the main to get to the > Brilliant Branch. As I recall, it was used chiefly by > trains which went across to the west bank of the > Allegheny. Maps of this location (CM) are available on my site. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DFC2211@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 16:42:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] surviving GG-1s This may be a better site for you to look at. I was in it yesterday. Foe AOL users...... The GG1 Homepage For all others.....http://www.spikesys.com/gg1.html ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Nixon" Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 07:01:24 +0000 Subject: Re: [PRR] test plant Harold Gordon wrote: Subject: [PRR] test plant I am interested in information on the Altoona test plant, as shown on page 199 and page 219 of Pennsy Power. Do the blue prints exist for this test station and or any further photographs or written information. I am planing on building a display base using the idea of this test plant, has anyone done this before as a working or static model? Thanks, Harold Gordon A video put of by Penn State shows a loco running on this test bed. Wheels are turning and the loco is staying put. The video is less than a minute long on this section, but about an hour long if I remember correctly. I can't think of the name of it, but is is one of the couple they put out about PRR and Altoona. Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] surviving GG-1s Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 17:50:50 -0500 Mark, Great page about the surviving PRR power. The Reuben Wells is in fact in the basement of the Children's Museum. I saw and took some pictures, but they are dark due to the lighting. Only the side facing the public has been restored. ( don't ask how I know that !) Also # 9251 ( sw7 ?) restored and was used in York, Pa to pull the K4 trips back into town. Another also... the 44 ton engine at the Strasbourg Railroad is from the PRR ( so I am told ) Bill ---------- > From: Mark D Bej > To: Larry and Phyllis Morgan > Cc: Sean121982@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: RE: [PRR] surviving GG-1s > Date: Monday, October 12, 1998 7:57 AM > > On Sat, 10 Oct 1998, Larry and Phyllis Morgan wrote: > > > > > I have a link to a WEB page devoted to this topic. > > http://www.arc.umn.edu/~wes/misc/GG1.html > > I could not open it today, so it may no longer be active. > > Jerry may already have a link to the site. > > Larry Morgan > > You may wish to see > http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Fan/locomotives.html > > -- > Mark > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 03:55:52 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: NSINFO@nscorp.com: [railroad] Implementation ---rbreon@juno.com wrote: > > > >The bigger question is why restencil any cars for NYC? Why noy just > >change > >them diectely to CSX? The re-stencilling began at a time when STB was still debating whether or not to approve the deal. Had cars been marked CSX or NS, it would have suggested that the railroads were going ahead with the deal, even though not approved. That might have ruffled feathers at STB. However, NYC was a reporting mark owned by Conrail, as was PRR and a few others, so they were just using an alternative Conrail mark. Further, had the deal not gone through, there would have been no need to back up and re-re-stencil. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 20:23:23 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Centipedes,Liberty Models and Miracle Castings Hello to the group... I have some somber news for some of you who are'nt in the know about some of the goings out here in the PRR modelings world. Before i get going on this let me put my thoughts out on the table about a Centipede model. First of all what i think is the closest thing out there as to a Centipede drive would be a drive from one of the AHM/Rivarossi,IHC GG-1 engine. The pilot and power truck arrangement is similar,but different. The truck side frames are somewhat similar but different also. I think it would be more practical for Miracle (if they were to come out with this model) to either buy or borrow one of the Brass models of this engine and use one to produce a master for a resin model. This would ensure that the body and trucks would be accurate. Any one have one they trust Miracle to use? Now As to Liberty Models... It seems Joe Zappa is having troubles in his personal life. Un fortunately this is probably going to kill any chances of us Pennsy modelers of ever getting the N-8 cabin cars or K-5 engines from him. I have built both masters for these so i know he has at least a master for them. If Joe will come on the list and let us know what is up,and perhaps if he were willing he could contact Miracle Castings about working out something to produce these models if he can't. It is a shame that it has come to this point. I have suspected that something was'nt right for a while now, but did'nt want to bring it out in public with respect to Joe Zappa. Joe if you read this...i hope you can get your problems back on track and that if you don't produce the models...at least give Miracle a try. I'd like to hear from you all on what i have suggested about this. Til Later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JDPanza@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 20:39:24 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [CR] Pittsburgh In a message dated 10/12/98 2:04:17 PM Central Daylight Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: I think passenger trains running the East bank used a connection closer in to the Union Station, somewhere in the Strip District. But maybe not. The tracks were there to get from the Brilliant Branch down to the Conemaugh Division line on the east side of the river. Whether that flyover survived Penn Central, the Martin Luther King Busway, the new connection from Skunk Hollow up to the main line, I know not. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob >> The fly-over was gone by 1964 when commuter service stopped running. I remember riding the one to Verona and we always seemed to get stopped by eastbound freights. I am not sure how the Pittsburgh-Buffalo passenger trains were routed but I suspect it was via this fly-over. The line through the Strip District would have been slow and the trains would have missed what was then an important passenger stop at East Liberty. Just a guess, I'm sure others out there know more about it than I. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 20:26:47 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [CR] Pittsburgh In a message dated 10/12/98 3:04:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > Once upon a time when the world was young and PRR was > still in the passenger train business, there was a > flyover near East Liberty station for eastbound > passenger trains to cross over the main to get to the > Brilliant Branch. As I recall, it was used chiefly by > trains which went across to the west bank of the > Allegheny. > > I think passenger trains running the east bank used a > connection closer in to the Union Station, somewhere > in the Strip District. But maybe not. The tracks were > there to get from the Brilliant Branch down to the > Conemaugh Division line on the east side of the river. > > Whether that flyover survived Penn Central, the > Martin Luther King Busway, the new connection from > Skunk Hollow up to the main line, I know not. > === > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > Actually the flyover was used by freights to avoid the terminal in Pittsburgh. This allowed freights to use the Brilliant Branch, Connemaugh and Eastern Divisions to avoid the congested terminal area. Allegheny Valley passenger trains left Union Station crossed Liberty Avenue, Penn Avenue, and several other streets to AVRR Street. They followed the Allegheny Valley to Kiski Jct. and then depending on destination continues up the Allegheny or followed the Connemaugh Division. West Penn Passenger trains crossed the Fort Wayne Bridge to Fort Wayne Station if they originated at Union Station and then went up the West Penn to Kiski Jct. Many West Penn Passenger trains originated at Fort Wayne Station. The flyover was still in existence about 4 months ago as the Allegheny Valley Railroad (now operating the Allegheny Valley line from Pittsburgh to New Kensington) uses the flyover to access CR and interchange at Island Ave. Yd. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 09:02:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [CR] Pittsburgh On Mon, 12 Oct 1998 SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/12/98 3:04:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > > > Once upon a time when the world was young and PRR was > > still in the passenger train business, there was a > > flyover near East Liberty station for eastbound > > passenger trains to cross over the main to get to the > > Brilliant Branch. As I recall, it was used chiefly by > > trains which went across to the west bank of the > > Allegheny. > > > > Whether that flyover survived Penn Central, the > > Martin Luther King Busway, the new connection from ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Skunk Hollow up to the main line, I know not. > > === > > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > > > Actually the flyover was used by freights to avoid the terminal in Pittsburgh. > This allowed freights to use the Brilliant Branch, Connemaugh and Eastern > Divisions to avoid the congested terminal area. Allegheny Valley passenger > trains left Union Station crossed Liberty Avenue, Penn Avenue, and several > other streets to AVRR Street. They followed the Allegheny Valley to Kiski > Jct. and then depending on destination continues up the Allegheny or followed > the Connemaugh Division. West Penn Passenger trains crossed the Fort Wayne > Bridge to Fort Wayne Station if they originated at Union Station and then went > up the West Penn to Kiski Jct. Many West Penn Passenger trains originated at > Fort Wayne Station. > > The flyover was still in existence about 4 months ago as the Allegheny Valley > Railroad (now operating the Allegheny Valley line from Pittsburgh to New > Kensington) uses the flyover to access CR and interchange at Island Ave. Yd. Now wait a minute; If he's talking about the flyover along the busway it was the one which has been gone at least since I was in high school, and presumably as someone else said much longer than that. It went from the south side of the mainline to the Brilliant Branch just behind where the East Liberty bas garage is now. The important thing is, I don't see how that flyover could help anything miss the terminal area, so what flyover do you mean? Or have I totally misread something above? -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 10:11:09 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Brilliant Branch Flyover (was: [PRR] Re: [CR] Pittsburgh) --On Tuesday, October 13, 1998, 9:02 AM -0400 "Derrick J Brashear" wrote: > Now wait a minute; If he's talking about the flyover along the busway it > was the one which has been gone at least since I was in high school, and > presumably as someone else said much longer than that. It went from the > south side of the mainline to the Brilliant Branch just behind where the > East Liberty bas garage Yes, the flyover is long gone. However, the abutment for it is still intact. Allegheny Valley RR accesses the branch which still leads to the Lawrenceville/Strip District industrial trackage, at grade at the Wye which is still in place. AMTRAK freight, er, passenger trains turn there, as well. The jct. is now called CP HOME ... which I like because MY home is just four blocks up the hill in N. Point Breeze. At the foot of N. Linden Avenue, the tracks that led to the E. Liberty coach yard are still in place, although cnxn to the CR two track main has been cut. It's a non-photogenic place to watch trains, but like I said, "It's HOME." heh, heh. Right after we moved in, an acquaintence who was innocent of my passion for trains, noted the noise of a freight struggling up grade thru E. Liberty and approaching the foot of our street (the trees obscure the tracks), and asked, in a disgruntled manner, "Did you know about those tracks being so close when you signed the contract?" To which I retorted, "No, but I won't tell them if you don't. They might want to renegotiate for more money." Vagel Keller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Free PRR Web Hosting Date: Tue, 13 Oct 98 14:25:37 -0400 From: Jerry In order to expand the PENNSYRR.COM community, I am offering to host, free of charge, up to three PRR-related web sites. The sites would have their own prefix, such as "lineswest.pennsyrr.com". Here's the fine print: * Prospective webmaster must submit to me an outline of their intentions for the site, as well as initial pages. I don't want to reserve online space for someone who is not going to actively develop it. * Site must not duplicate content from "Keystone Crossings". In return, "Keystone Crossings" will not duplicate new material posted to the new site unless work on said material was alreay announced via "KC"'s "Work In Progress" page. * Site will be free for life (my life, not yours!) * Site limited to 50MB of space (a lot in web site terms!) * Site must display rotating banner ad from PENNSYRR.COM sponsors (currently Digital Image Works, Liberty Model Productions, Union Station Products). This will only be one line of code which I will provide. The rest will be done automatically by the server. * Webmaster will have private FTP account to access and change their site at will. * Access to my CGI's and Server Side Includes. * Any other limitations I choose to impose at a later date. (Hey, all contracts say that!) I want to attract good content for specific areas. Harold McGee has expressed an interest in doing the Middle Division -- here's your chance to do it for free, Harold!!! Other ideas might be a PRR Lettering Site, Lines West, Philly Terminal, etc. Just write up a proposal and follow it up with initial content for evaluation. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: STEVEGG1@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 14:21:55 EDT Subject: [PRR] Mt. Union bridge Greetings, I have a question about the Mt. Union, PA area. Last weekend while driving from EBT to Huntington I noticed old bridge piers crossing the river which appeared to be coming from PRR mainline about 1-2 miles north west of Mt.Union and can be seen from Rt. 522. Can someone shed some light on this? Was this PRR or another line? Also, what did it do east of 522? Thanks Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] NRHS Harrisburg Chapter Show Date: Tue, 13 Oct 98 14:06:41 -0400 From: Jerry The Harrisburg Chapter of the NRHS has an annual show over the winter at the Zembo Temple in Harrisburg. Last year's show was almost cancelled. Does anyone know if there is one planned for this year? If so, who can I contact about getting a vendor's table? The closest thing the chapter has to a web site is on Mark Bej's site at http://ccfadm.eeg.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/nrhs_hbg_show98.html but it hasn't been updated in -- I'm guessing -- over a year. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Greg Johnson Subject: [PRR] Monongahela Branch Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 21:38:25 -0500 Does anyone have duplicate slides or photos of the PRR/PC Monongahela Branch in the Mesta - Dravosburg area? I will pay for all slides or photos. Living in Houston and modeling Pittsburgh makes it a little tough for field trips. Thanks, Greg Johnson gjohn195@swbell.net ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] DigiTrax Date: Tue, 13 Oct 98 14:01:58 -0400 From: Jerry Wondering a) How many DCC users there are out there; and b) Of those, how many use DigiTrax. I was all set to go Wangrow, but I think Bruce Smith, our respected instigator from the deep south, has convinced me to go with DigiTrax. Being a computer buff, I think there are many more opportunities to tie computers in with DigiTrax's LocoNet. I also do some custom programming and have a "shell" of a Macintosh DCC control program in the works. I'd like to hear from both sides of this issue. Secondarily, I am evaluating becoming a DigiTrax dealer. Would any of you existing users consider purchasing through my "Merchandise Service" business? What would I have to do to sway your business from your current supplier? Is there anyone out there preparing to buy a new DigiTrax system that perhaps I could quote on? As always, thank you very much...it pays the bills for the lists and web sites. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 13:05:42 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Mt. Union bridge I don't know a whole lot about this, but the 1923 CT1000 refers to "Old Main Line" in a couple of places in or near Mt. Union. I'm pretty sure that what you're seeing as "another line" is the old main. Nothing to do with Mt. Union, but to show what can happen, there was a considerable campaign of easing curves, building embankments across valleys and generally re-doing the Main Line in the stretch between Greensburg and Derry in the years around 1900. In the 50's there were yet tracks on many of the old locations, making one wonder why the railroad went so far out of its way just to build a storage siding or whatever. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob ---STEVEGG1@aol.com wrote: > > Greetings, > I have a question about the Mt. Union, PA area. Last weekend while driving > from EBT to Huntington I noticed old bridge piers crossing the river which > appeared to be coming from PRR mainline about 1-2 miles north west of Mt.Union > and can be seen from Rt. 522. Can someone shed some light on this? Was this > PRR or another line? Also, what did it do east of 522? > Thanks > Steve > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 16:38:06 -0400 From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [CR] Pittsburgh > > > The flyover was still in existence about 4 months ago as the Allegheny Valley > > Railroad (now operating the Allegheny Valley line from Pittsburgh to New > > Kensington) uses the flyover to access CR and interchange at Island Ave. Yd. > > Now wait a minute; If he's talking about the flyover along the busway it > was the one which has been gone at least since I was in high school, and > presumably as someone else said much longer than that. It went from the > south side of the mainline to the Brilliant Branch just behind where the > East Liberty bas garage is now. The important thing is, I don't see how > that flyover could help anything miss the terminal area, so what flyover > do you mean? I agree. I think you guys are talking about 2 different flyovers. I do believe that the original poster was speaking about the former flyover at CM, East Liberty, CP Home. Not the one on the north side of the Allegheny R. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 17:09:00 -0400 From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] NRHS Harrisburg Chapter Show Jerry wrote: > The Harrisburg Chapter of the NRHS has an annual show over the winter at > the Zembo Temple in Harrisburg. Last year's show was almost cancelled. > Does anyone know if there is one planned for this year? If so, who can I > contact about getting a vendor's table? > > The closest thing the chapter has to a web site is on Mark Bej's site at > http://ccfadm.eeg.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/nrhs_hbg_show98.html > but it hasn't been updated in -- I'm guessing -- over a year. Um ... exCUSE me???? Seems you've linked to a subpage which is, yes, still around. I suggest linking to the main page, which is http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/nrhs_hbg.html and from which you can proceed to the *** 1999 *** Harrisburg show page, which is specifically http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/nrhs_hbg_show99.html Please don't accuse me of acting like the old PRRTHS site without first making sure of it. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 17:07:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Mt. Union bridge > I don't know a whole lot about this, but the 1923 > CT1000 refers to "Old Main Line" in a couple of > places in or near Mt. Union. I'm pretty sure that > what you're seeing as "another line" is the old main. I took this to be about the piers crossing the river just south of US22, just west of Mt. Union. Clearly not part of the main line because of their alignment, probably part of a lumbering or mining operation. Potentially the source of the "low clearance on US22 near Mt. Union" which caused it to not be useful as a long-haul truck route. I also would like to know what they were for. -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] NRHS Harrisburg Chapter Show Date: Tue, 13 Oct 98 20:36:00 -0400 From: Jerry On 10/13/98 5:09 PM, Mark Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote: >Um ... exCUSE me???? > >Seems you've linked to a subpage which is, yes, still around. >I suggest linking to the main page, which is > >http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/nrhs_hbg.html > >and from which you can proceed to the *** 1999 *** Harrisburg show page, >which >is specifically > >http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/nrhs_hbg_show99.html > > >Please don't accuse me of acting like the old PRRTHS site without first >making sure >of it. Well...glad to hear that Mark is still with us!!! Actually, I went to Mark's "Broad Way" page, hit the link to "Mark's RR Stuff" (or whatever it says), and clicked on the second link for the NRHS which was for the show. Did that this afternoon and got the year old stuff!!! Soooo, back to you! ;-) ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space available at http://www.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 22:01:54 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] DigiTrax Our club uses System One (selected while I was electrical chairman) and I will receive the equivalent (a North Coast starter pack) for Christmas. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 19:28:33 -0700 From: Roger Elliott Subject: Re: [PRR] Centipedes,Liberty Models and Miracle Castings Hi folks, I'm sorry to hear that Liberty Models may be having problems. I hope they are resolved soon. Anyway, just a comment about making masters from previous brass models. I know of at least one company that has done such a thing and what I have heard is that it is a rather dubious practise, sort of like violating copyright. I suppose you could use it as a means of taking measurements off the thing and then transferring. I'm doing that with an HO S-2 Steam Turbine that I want to reproduce in N-scale ( hoping maybe Liberty could do the castings). But I think to take the actual brass model and make a mold off of it may be questionable practise........ Cheers, Roger Elliott ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] DigiTrax Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 22:41:44 -0500 Jerry--I use a Digitrax Chief on my Susquehanna Division, and I am thoroughly pleased with it. There is nothing like getting an ore train underway out of Northumberland with Decs on the front and back and not having to worry about scattering hoppers all over. Now if only the folks at Soundtrax would get us a good sounding PRR freight whistle on a decoder..... Can you imagine the racket that four Decs can make, even in HO? No local dealers here so I would be happy to use Merchandise Service. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL -----Original Message----- From: Jerry To: PRR-Talk Date: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 1:38 PM Subject: [PRR] DigiTrax >Wondering > >a) How many DCC users there are out there; and > >b) Of those, how many use DigiTrax. > >I was all set to go Wangrow, but I think Bruce Smith, our respected >instigator from the deep south, has convinced me to go with DigiTrax. >Being a computer buff, I think there are many more opportunities to tie >computers in with DigiTrax's LocoNet. I also do some custom programming >and have a "shell" of a Macintosh DCC control program in the works. > >I'd like to hear from both sides of this issue. > >Secondarily, I am evaluating becoming a DigiTrax dealer. Would any of you >existing users consider purchasing through my "Merchandise Service" >business? What would I have to do to sway your business from your current >supplier? Is there anyone out there preparing to buy a new DigiTrax >system that perhaps I could quote on? > >As always, thank you very much...it pays the bills for the lists and web >sites. > >------------------------------------------------------------------ >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com >Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. >Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com >Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > >WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! >The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 11:18:30 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Mt. Union, bridges, what?, where?, when? This may not have any bearing on the original question, but I found it interesting in it's own right. Go to lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/pmmapquery.html That's a search form for a collection of panoramic maps at Library of Congress. Put Mt. Union in the box, click on SEARCH (or START or...) You'll get a thumbnail of a pictorial map of Mt. Union, PA, dated 1906. Click on that to get a bigger image, which has zoom controls. Zoom in on the upper center portion of the map, see what's going on there. I claim that, based on this, the PRR originally came in from the east on the south side of the Juniata. Sometime before 1906, they relocated to the north side and built a bridge across the river to connect with the old main on the east side of Mt. Union. This bridge sat at an angle of about 45 degrees to the old and new main lines. During 1906, they began to build a permanent bridge just upstream from the bridge noted above, and roughly parallel to the old main. At the same time they started building arches over several streets in Mt. Union, and building embankments from the new bridge through town. As I said, don't know if this explains the bridge piers which started the thread, but the map/picture is interesting in itself. === Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 12:07:47 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] Mt. Union bridge --On Tue, Oct 13, 1998 2:21 PM +0000 STEVEGG1@aol.com wrote: > Last weekend while driving > from EBT to Huntington I noticed old bridge piers crossing the river which > appeared to be coming from PRR mainline about 1-2 miles north west of Mt.Union > and can be seen from Rt. 522. Steve and "the group," >From the location described, what you saw were the piers to a bridge for the tram leading from a gannister rock quarry on the mountain above 522 to one of the refractory brick plants (there were three) in Mt. Union. The quarry was high up on the side of the mountain and was connected to the tram by an incline. I'm fairly sure that the tram, on the Mt. Union side passed OVER the PRR before heading into the brick yard. Hope you enjoyed the EBT's Fall Spectacular. Vagel Keller, CMU Industrial Heritage Homepage http://www.usaor.net/users/vagelk ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] Pirating of Brass Models Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:56:18 -0400 Hi All! There's been a couple of posts regarding the practice of making molds off of brass models, and here's our policy on it: 1.) You can copy anything you want for personal use. 2.) You can copy with permission. I've heard of one company doing that with some N-Scale engines. 3.) Once you start selling a copy of someone elses work, that's "Piracy", and we agree that it is unethical. The only exception might be if the company that made it is defunct, and no one is picking up the rights to it. In the case of brass models, they are usually limited runs anyway. I think there would be no contest in court if it could be shown that your model is a direct copy of someone elses. They would have you over a barrel. I don't think this rule applies to using parts made by someone else, assembling them (along with your own work) into a unit, and then copying and selling it. The logic being, no one is going to buy your entire unit just to cut off one part to use; therefore you really aren't competing with the manufacturer of the part. The other thing is, they're selling parts; the only use for parts is to create something that didn't exist before. Companies like Model Builder's Supply in Aurora, Ont. sell a large variety of architectural parts, which they know may be reproduced as part of an architectural model. That's what the parts are for! Making a substantial change in an item also usually satisfies the legal eagles, in that it is no longer an identical item. This, however, isn't possible if the original model is accurate! You would have to change something to make it innacurate, and no one would want it. Anyway, that's my thoughts on this subject. Pat Lawless Miracle Castings P.S. Best wishes to Joe, if he's reading this. I wondered why you hadn't posted on the Casting List lately. I was a little perturbed to read about your personal life on this mailing list though....... ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 09:50:46 -0400 From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] NRHS Harrisburg Chapter Show > > Actually, I went to Mark's "Broad Way" page, hit the link to "Mark's RR > Stuff" (or whatever it says), and clicked on the second link for the NRHS > which was for the show. Did that this afternoon and got the year old > stuff!!! > > Soooo, back to you! ;-) Oooo, bad news. Bad technique on my part. Sorry. I'll remove that (duplicate) link (now to old material) and simply advertise on the higher-level page. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] NRHS Harrisburg Chapter Show Date: Wed, 14 Oct 98 10:23:42 -0400 From: Jerry On 10/14/98 9:50 AM, Mark Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote: >Oooo, bad news. Bad technique on my part. >Sorry. > >I'll remove that (duplicate) link (now to old material) and simply advertise >on >the higher-level page. Thanks. You must be spanked! Damn, there's that Monty Python stuff again! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] New URL - "Merchandise Service" Date: Wed, 14 Oct 98 08:34:12 -0400 From: Jerry To make things a bit easier to remember, "Merchandise Service" now answers to: http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com as well as the old URL of: http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/ A link has also been placed from the master page of PENNSYRR.COM, so when you are on the road, you only need to remember: http://www.pennsyrr.com Look for additional sites via this domain over the next few weeks! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Centipedes,Liberty Models and Miracle Castings Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 07:47:05 -0400 Hello Hank and the rest of you SPF's , Please relax, and don't panic. Let me say this again, " Please relax, and don't panic". While it is certainly true that I am now in the middle of a divorce, and I have been troubled and slowed down by this, I can tell you that we DO intend to produce the N8 cabin, and several other items on our list. Liberty Model Productions, as a business, will NOT be affected by my divorce. My wife and I are parting on as good of terms as can be expected, and is not seeking any part of Liberty, nor any connections to it, financially or otherwise. Now, we have had numerous technical difficulties with our 'Fish Car' project, but it is progressing, and looking quite nice. It has just really impacted our timelines, as this is a PRIORITY job ! I expect that somewhere shortly after the new year, we wi;ll be able to begin making headway on our own projects like the K5 and N8, along with the 'American Steel Series', and our N scale shells from Jim S. Lastly, this is not really the correct forum for this discussion, so if you need a question answered, and wish to discuss my personal life any further, please e-mail me privately. Respectfully, J. Zappa Liberty Model Productions ---------- > From: Roger Elliott > To: bubbles@visi.net; prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Centipedes,Liberty Models and Miracle Castings > Date: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 10:28 PM > > Hi folks, > I'm sorry to hear that Liberty Models may be having problems. I hope > they are resolved soon. > Anyway, just a comment about making masters from previous brass models. > I know of at least one company that has done such a thing and what I > have heard is that it is a rather dubious practise, sort of like > violating copyright. I suppose you could use it as a means of taking > measurements off the thing and then transferring. I'm doing that with > an HO S-2 Steam Turbine that I want to reproduce in N-scale ( hoping > maybe Liberty could do the castings). But I think to take the actual > brass model and make a mold off of it may be questionable > practise........ > > Cheers, > Roger Elliott > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 01:44:31 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] Mt. Union bridge Hi All, "East Broad Top: To The Mines And Back" by Grenard and Kramer has these tidbits: On pg.23 a map, circa 1918 shows an abandoned bridge labeled "Old PRR Bridge" just north of where the North American Refractories Co. plant was (is?). Originally Mt.Union Refractories. The tracks leading to it pass on the other side of the plant from where the EBT yards are (were?). It appears to be on a line due north from where the coal prep plant in Mt.Union was (is?). This all, according to the text, is east of Mt.Union the town. The line west from the "old bridge appears to join the EBT yard opposite their freight transfer shed. On page 33 a picture of the EBT's station has this caption: "The EBT's Mt.Union station was originally built by the Pennsylvania RR. In fact, all of the adjacent trackage at this point was the Pennsy's main line until an improvement program relocated the Middle Divisions right-of-way to the north, expanded the line to four tracks, and elevated the roadbed." On page 34 a picture of PRR #1795 and EBT #16 in a MT.Union streetside setting has this caption: "PRR No. 1795 rolls past No. 16's engine crew on what Pennsy men refer to as the "Old Main". The H-9 is enroute to the main line junction a mile west at Jacks Tower." A map I have of the EBT shows the "old bridge" to be about a quarter mile downstream from the present PRR crossing of the Juniata. A note in an inset on the map inconclusively hints that EBT may have used this bridge to interchange with the Pennsy after the PRR line relocation? Since Steve stated that the piers he saw were 1-2 miles NW of Mt. Union I'd agree that they must be something else since the book and map both show the old bridge to be almost due east of the town and east of 522. However I could be totally wrong on all these interpretations since I've never been there in person to check this data. Hope this is helpful, Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Laird, Bill" Subject: RE: [PRR] Digitrax Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 02:01:36 -0500 Jerry, The club I belong to (Houston Society of Model Engineers) has a large (700+ ft mainline) that was constructed over a period of several years with the traditional DC power packs and block wiring using common rail. About 2 years ago we added Digitrax (four boosters). Because of the common rail wiring many said it could not be done. A.J. from Digitrax was a great help in getting us going and built four special optoisolated boosters for us to get around the the common rail problem (I understand that these are now part of their product line). The Digitrax DCC system was installed in place of one of the existing DC power packs, switch selectable by block. Result is that we can run the entire layout DCC by setting each block to DCC or run mixed DCC and conventional DC power by selecting some blocks to DCC and others to conventional DC power. We put automobile brake light bulbs accross the gaps between blocks to absorb any shorts caused by someone running a loco across a DCC to DC gap. Not everyone in the club had wanted to go DCC because of the expense and trouble of installing decoders in their locomotives. A large segment of the club wanted DCC. Now everyone is happy as the layout can be run either way or mixed. The Digitrax system has run without problems. We use a wide assortment of decoders from many manufacturers, including about a dozen of the North Coast Kit Decoders, which I built. These, while about twice as long as other similar featured decoders, only cost $15 each and after building a couple the construction time became about one hour each. Price is my main consideration on DCC. My current vendor sells at 20% discount below retail. On top of that I pay 8 1/4% sales tax so I only get about a 12% discount. I would switch vendors only if it saved me money. Bill Laird ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 00:36:44 -0500 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/14/98 >Anyway, just a comment about making masters from previous brass models. >I know of at least one company that has done such a thing and what I >have heard is that it is a rather dubious practise, sort of like >violating copyright. I suppose you could use it as a means of taking >measurements - But I think to take the actual brass model and make a mold off >of it may be questionable practise........ > >Cheers, >Roger Elliott ===== There was a situation like this several years ago: a company offering a wide selection of brass cast locomotive detail parts. Turns out they were copy casting the existing lines. When word of this got out, they were buried alive by public reaction. Would we really want an established potential producer like Liberty or Miracle Castings to commit suicide in such a messy fashion? BTW: copy casting produces very poor parts: double parting lines, double shrink (thus undersized),loss of detail and erratic shape due to making rubber molds of a rubber molded product. If someone did create a PRR product with this sort of workmanship, you'd all howl. Regards, Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: [PRR] new page Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 16:11:54 -0400 I've got a new web page, check it out when you have the chance. -Josh Trower www.members.xoom.com/NEC1/Default.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 98 10:19:19 CST Subject: Re: [PRR] Mt. Union bridge Hi, all, >I took this to be about the piers crossing the river just south of US22, just >west of Mt. Union. Clearly not part of the main line because of their >alignment, probably part of a lumbering or mining operation. Potentially the >source of the "low clearance on US22 near Mt. Union" which caused it to not be >useful as a long-haul truck route. I also would like to know what they were >for. These piers were used for a tall railroad bridge that carried the n.g. (3 ft., I think) tramway of one of the Mt. Union refractory works (was it General Refractories?) across to the north side of the Juniata, where there were extensive ganister quarrying operations. If I remember right, this bridge lasted into the early 1950's and in its day was quite spectacular. It was so tall that I doubt it caused any clearance problems on Rt. 22. As Bob Netzlof has pointed out, significant realignments were done all along the Middle Division in the period roughly between c.1898 and 1910. The TRIUMPH I book covers a number of these on the west slope. But the re- routing north of Mt. Union also occured at this time. The same sort of re- routing took place in Newport, where the original PRR alignment ran right through the center of town but has now been moved north. These changes were designed to: ease curves; increase the whole Middle Div to four tracks; and eliminate grade crossings. If you get out topographic maps (both the older and the newer ones) you can often see the footprint of the earlier and original PRR alignments. PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 17:50:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] NRHS Harrisburg Chapter Show On Wed, 14 Oct 1998, Jerry wrote: > You must be spanked! Damn, there's that Monty Python stuff again! I was recently (electronoverbally) spanked for posting non-PRR stuff to this list, and here the Listmaster himself is sinning! I actually wanted to reply with some tart remark, something about the stuff that, in the Monty Python movie, was mentioned _after_ the spanking. However, given that we've all had our fill of _that_ (the former aforementioned) activity, I'll desist. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 18:29:13 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Brass Copies Hello folks.... The other night when i posted about making mass produced parts from a brass engine....i did'nt intend it to be any type of copy right infringement idea....I was just thinking that one could be used to give a master modeler the measurements and ideas and help for making new masters so a new version could be made. Since there are only Brass versions of the Centipedes out there i thought it would be a place to start from. I will say one thing....I wish someone would get the old A.C. Gilbert molds or some of the models for the B-6sb they used to make years ago and update it so us poorer modelers could have one of those engines.... I don't even know if A.C. Gilbert is even in business anymore...but if so that would be a place to start for that engine. I myself would be willing to make a Centipede master if i knew there to get power truck sideframes to go with the body. I could make my own masters from drawings and measurements from such frames. I guess a lot of machining would have to be done as those sideframes are quite complex. Well i just wanted to clear the air on what i intended about my post and hope all understand what i meant. Til Later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 18:51:43 -0700 From: Roger Elliott Subject: [PRR] Good N-scale signals Hello, I have a bunch of signals on my layout that work OK but I'd like something a little better. I tried to order the NJ International signals but Walther's couldn't get 'em (that was about 6 months ago....). I've got the Model Power jobs which are pretty clunky with the oversized bulbs. The one thing I was able to do was to wire them directly to my Peco switches so that when I throw the switch the light changes as well. Are there any other better lights that would work the same way? I saw the BL Hobby Products lights but those require putting in big holes which I'd prefer to avoid...... How are the Tomar signals? Can they be wired to the switch as well as to a constant power supply? Thanks in Advance, Roger Elliott ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DFC2211@aol.com Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 22:38:09 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] new page Unable to access this site through AOL. Dan ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Good N-scale signals Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 23:43:49 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell On 14 Oct, Roger Elliott wrote: > I have a bunch of signals on my layout that work OK but I'd like > something a little better. I tried to order the NJ International > signals but Walther's couldn't get 'em (that was about 6 months > ago....). I've got the Model Power jobs which are pretty clunky with > the oversized bulbs. [ ... ] Burt Industries used to make good-looking N Scale PRR signals, single-head and dwarf. I bought a couple of samples and only later discovered that they didn't make them anymore. Nuts. Maybe a mass mailing campaign. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 01:11:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/14/98 In a message dated 10/14/98 2:52:38 PM Central Daylight Time, rboydrrs@inlink.com writes: << BTW: copy casting produces very poor parts: double parting lines, double shrink (thus undersized),loss of detail and erratic shape due to making rubber molds of a rubber molded product. >> When I ran an electronics business, it wasn't necessary for me to legally pursue Korean pirated copies of our relays because U.S. customer wound up with 1 million failures: copycat molded covers bound up armatures and locked up relays. Didn't correctly account for the shrink factor. Rest assured otherwise we would have pursued it legally (U.S. government has worked with overseas governments to try and end the problem, with mixed success) . In the case of a situation like the above, we had three lines of defense: 1. Cooperation of the foreign government, in negotiations with U.S. government. 2. Siezure in customs. 3. Legal recourse against the U.S. OEM customer, in this case a large one which would have settled and cooperated out of court, most likely. In the case of basement operators in the model railroad business, a lot sell direct but otherwise pressure against distributors or large dealers would seem to be a good recourse. Since I never was in the position to act against someone that small, I don't know if there might be some recourse via the post office against mail-order sales. On the philosophical side, I guess I am old-fashioned in my disgust at the decline in respect for intellectual property (software, copyrights, or tool design) and I am pleased to see the attitude of people like Miracle Castings and Liberty Model Productions and will certainly patronize them whenever possible. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 08:01:51 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Bootleg Castings If you want a good look at a complete line of castings all previously made by others, just take a peek at an old Selley catalog from the '40s or early 50s: All the pictures are of parts made by Walthers, J-C, Staples, Westbrook, and more!! The #1 model railroad magazine used to editorialize against bootleggers, but still ran the ads. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cschlund@sfsu.edu Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 09:42:58 Subject: Re: [PRR] Centipedes,Liberty Models and Miracle Castings Hi Roger, > I'm sorry to hear that Liberty Models may be having problems. I hope > they are resolved soon. Me too, I was hoping he and you might come up with some nice N scale items for others to use. > Anyway, just a comment about making masters from previous brass models. > I know of at least one company that has done such a thing and what I > have heard is that it is a rather dubious practise, sort of like > violating copyright. I'm glad you replied on this issue. I was going to, but then decided to bite my tongue instead! Well said on your part. I know I'd have steam coming out of my ears if someone took one on the kits I sell, made a mold, and started selling them! - Claus -------------------------***{}***------------------------- Claus Schlund (Shop Foreman, Bernal Heights Car & Foundry) Modeling steam-era PRR in N scale - San Francisco, CA Interested in BHC&F products? Check out our no-longer-one-and-only N scale passenger car kit at http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~cschlund/models/pullman.gif ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jcfmmf@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 10:49:51 EDT Subject: [PRR] South Penn Model RR Horseshoe Curve Sorry I fouled up the attempted posting, here it is again. Status: All benchwork is completed; track is in up to the notch, will be completed by the end of October; DCC will also be completed at same time; scenery is doubtful for this show season as we need to get trains running; arrival & derarture yard is done. Next years projects, Gallitizin with loop track, engine facilities, classification yard, coach yard, scenery of present section, and rough-in of west slope--all it takes is time and money. Club: South Penn Model RR, Inc. 540 Charlotte St Lancaster, PA Show: Saturdays & Sundays 1-4:30pm Nov 28 & 29, Dec 5,6,12,13,19,20,26,27 Jan 2 & 3 36th annual show Directions: US 30 in Lancaster, off at Harrisburg Pike, East on pike toward Lancaster and Franklin & Marshall about 2 miles, at Conrail engine terminal on left, right on Charlotte, club is on the right in basement of old tobbaco warehouse across from Snavely's Lumber, use the white door. Hope to see all of you; Jerry Finefrock Superintendant, South Penn RR ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:48:27 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] Mt. Union, bridges, what?, where?, when? > a thumbnail of a pictorial map of Mt. > Union, PA, dated 1906. Is everyone starting to get the picture that, as George Pierson (one of America's noted philosophers) and I know, Mt. Union is a VERY interesting place?? Not least of all because of its connection to the EAST BROAD TOP. Bob's assessment from the Foster Birds Eye View map of Mt. Union, 1906, is correct. George has explained the reason this was done system-wide during the last years of the 19th and first two of the 20th Centuries. A look at the Foster view of Mt. Union will show you that the new alignment not only eliminated street level running through the middle of an increasingly industrialized little town, but straightened out a sharp S-Curve where the original bridge crossed the Juniata. (eventually there were three, count 'em, three refractory silica brick plants there, plus a gun power mill nearby, a PRR tie creosoting plant and, of course, there was also the EBT's coal transfer yard). Vagel ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:17:17 -0400 From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] RR abbrev? What would be the PMCK&Y railroad? (MCK may be McK, McKeesport). Pittsburgh, McKeesport & Youngstown???? Was there ever such an animal?? (See http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Frtsched/mrr1_1960.html) -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] MG & MO Date: Thu, 15 Oct 98 13:15:47 -0400 From: Jerry On 10/15/98 12:47 PM, Rob Schoenberg (robs@gatefield.com) wrote: > MG tower is supposedly slated for demolition sometime in the near >future... possible February. Sad news. It's such a neat and active spot. Too bad it's so hard to get to. Would be an ideal railfanning area if not for the fact that you must hike a private road, climb a very steep grade, and cross the tracks to get there. Anyone got an extra few mil to buy a ski lift and the property to turn it into, uh, something? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Modeling Harrisburg, Pa., in HO scale, circa 1954. Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! WWW.PENNSYRR.COM - See what's new in PRR all over the net! The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] MG & MO Date: Thu, 15 Oct 98 12:47:35 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Hi all, Two items of note from the altoona area that I forgot to mention after railfest. 1. MG tower is supposedly slated for demolition sometime in the near future... possible February. 2. the group in Cresson is still trying to get an MO tower for their observation area. I was told by some of the folks rasins money for the project that due to the problems encountered in moving the original tower, a new MO will probably be constructed using some parts of the old tower. They have an orange primered N5c next to their proposed tower site with a board showing their fund raising progress attached to the side... Rob http://prr.railfan.net ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 15:18:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] RR abbrev? A dusty corner of my memory is telling me that PMcK & Y is Pittsburgh McKees Rocks & Youghiogheny, although McKeesport makes more sense in both the routing (Southeasterly) and the fact that McKees Rocks is two words and would be PMcKR & Y Dick Ross ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BowerPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 16:10:09 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] MG & MO A side bar note about the MO tower: Data coming first hand from Conrail/NS public affairs staff. MO is an environmental issue besides a structural failure. Asbestos abounds within the structure and that is the major problem being faced with any preservation efforts. Pieces of the structure may be salvaged but the rest will be scrapped. MG's model board will end up in the Altoona Railroaders Museum. There are angels within CR/NS's corporate staff that do have history's best interest in mind. They like to work behind the scenes. Brad Bower Digital Image Works ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Nixon" Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 08:50:38 EST5EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] RR abbrev? Mark wrote: >Subject: [PRR] RR abbrev? >What would be thePMCK&Y railroad? >(MCK may be McK, McKeesport). >Pittsburgh, McKeesport & Youngstown???? >Was there ever such an animal?? It is: Pittsburgh, McKeesport & Youghiogheny ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 18:09:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] RR abbrev? In a message dated 10/15/98 1:44:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: > What would be the > > PMCK&Y railroad? > > (MCK may be McK, McKeesport). > > Pittsburgh, McKeesport & Youngstown???? > > Was there ever such an animal?? > > (See http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Frtsched/mrr1_1960.html) > > -- > Mark > Pittsburgh, McKeesport, and Youghigheny, apparently nicknamed the P-Mickey. I think the local pronunciation is "Yock-ih-hay'-ney", but I'm not even sure my spelling is correct. PMcK&Y was one of Pittsburgh's local NYC dependencies; received/built cars to NYC standard lot # designs; marked its rolling stock with New York Central Lines-style gooseegg and lettering. So far as I know, the name/reporting marks appeared on no equipment in late schemes like those using Century Gothic (beginning circa 1955). Rick Tipton ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 18:09:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Mt. Union, bridges, what?, where?, when? In a message dated 10/15/98 12:22:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vck@andrew.cmu.edu writes: > Is everyone starting to get the picture that, as George Pierson (one of > America's noted philosophers) and I know, Mt. Union is a VERY interesting > place?? Yes, interesting for its current traffic, interesting for its EBT archaeology, and interesting for the fossil PRR right of way. One of the railfan thrills of my life was watching a PC SW heading toward street running in Mount Union on DUAL GAUGE TRACK. Another was locating standard-gauge switcher EBT #3 locked away in an engine house. I know, this sounds like a ghost story, but sometime in the 70s I stumbled across it and actually got a shot of the tender markings through a crack in the boards covering the windows. Obligatory Lines West content, almost: We were aware of these standard-gauge 0-6-0's of the EBT because #6 had been sold to the Whitewater Valley Railroad tourist operation in Connorsville Indiana. So I've had the privelege of riding behind EBT steam in Pennsylvania and in Indiana. BTW, I'm not positive #3 and #6 are identical locomotives. But they both do/did have very similar slopeback tenders. Rick Tipton ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 19:17:24 -0400 From: Brian Brooks Subject: Re: [PRR] RR abbrev? At 08:50 AM 10/15/98 EST5EDT, you wrote: >Mark wrote: >>Subject: [PRR] RR abbrev? >>What would be thePMCK&Y railroad? >>(MCK may be McK, McKeesport). >>Pittsburgh, McKeesport & Youngstown???? >>Was there ever such an animal?? > >It is: >Pittsburgh, McKeesport & Youghiogheny Yep! And a NYC subsidiary, no less. Brian ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 21:00:23 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Car color post-1954 Greg and All, Pictures are certainly worth a thousand words. Now having said that, don't believe everything you see. Cabins were painted "freight car color" whatever you all agree that to be. I don't believe Pennsylvania Railroad cabin cars were ever painted "red". I have seen photos of cabin cars where the color appears red. Note I said appears red. Many of the photos we all see in books and magazines are color corrected. Many of the same are 2nd and 3rd generation copies. Add to all of this the type of film used, when the film was shot, dyes used in printing and how it may have been handled during developing and you have variables. It has been noted that the hue or color of the "freight color color" changed during the 1950s. It took on a darker shade or cast. This is said to be caused by the use of synthic paints. Synthic paints hold their color better and wear longer. Unlike others I don't believe the color changed when synthics came along but rather they looked new longer then weathered or broke down slower. Newer paint jobs appear to this modeler to be more dirty and less faded than equipment painted before synthics. Want a post 1954 shade of freight car color? Try a 50/50 mix of boxcar red and caboose red (floquil). I use this myself. Don't get stuck on one shade. Freight equipment and locomotives come in many shades. If you want to do a better job alter your color from car to car( slightly don't get carried away). Remember too if you view your favorite X-29 in 1/87.1 scale at a distance of twelve inches that would be 87' of atmosphere between you and the car. That too will change the color you see. Ed Martin (one modelers opinion) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 00:04:26 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] RR abbrev? Hey yuze Gize, I think Rick has came closest to what my relatives always referred to the nickname "Pee Mickey Wye Railroad." It was a real New York Central "stepchild" but was the focus for Tichy's rebuilt USRA boxcar. The correct spelling is Youghiogheny (I cheated I looked it up). It was one of those wonderful little railroads that existed around Pittsburgh. She had another step sister road the P&LE and a real have sister road jointly owned by the Pennsy the Pittsburgh, Cartiers & Youghiogheny -- P. C. & Y. Ry-- or as my Grandfather called it the "Pcy little railway" you sound it out. Greg Martin Watching from LINES way out WEST In a message dated 10/15/98 3:33:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << n a message dated 10/15/98 1:44:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: > What would be the > > PMCK&Y railroad? > > (MCK may be McK, McKeesport). > > Pittsburgh, McKeesport & Youngstown???? > > Was there ever such an animal?? > > (See http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Frtsched/mrr1_1960.html) > > -- > Mark > Pittsburgh, McKeesport, and Youghigheny, apparently nicknamed the P-Mickey. I think the local pronunciation is "Yock-ih-hay'-ney", but I'm not even sure my spelling is correct. PMcK&Y was one of Pittsburgh's local NYC dependencies; received/built cars to NYC standard lot # designs; marked its rolling stock with New York Central Lines-style gooseegg and lettering. So far as I know, the name/reporting marks appeared on no equipment in late schemes like those using Century Gothic (beginning circa 1955). Rick Tipton >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 20:48:49 -0700 From: Roger Elliott Subject: [PRR] N-scale signals Hello, Now that I think about it that last post of mine was rather long, so I'll try something a little shorter. What are the best n-scale signals out there that will work with Peco switches? What abou the Tomar signals? Thanks, Roger Elliott ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 02:14:17 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: GP7 detail Jim and All, Let's examine the GP-7 a little closer and see if we can add some dates. I made some comments as I read through your post and I ain't being a model Nazi either! In a message dated 10/13/98 7:14:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jimsix@ncweb.com writes: < {Phase 1 -- who cares what EMD says I read Extra 2200 SOUTH} Production begins in 1949 and ends in the Late Summer of 1952 . Dropped in the Late Summer of 1952 . It did appear on early production Phase 2's. It is not a spotting feature because of the overlap. < b) small slope panel pilots> Dropped about 2/3 the way through Phase 1 production Spring of 1951 approx. < c) no :slots: in the fuel tank skirts> Dropped in Phase 2 Production introduced in March of 1952, yes this means that Phase 1 and Phase 2 overlapped. This and the engine door height change denotes the change from Phase 1 to Phase 2, the 36" dynamic brake fan Vs 48" dynamic brake fan was not a spotting feature. < d) 56" hood doors non DB, one 56" hood door cab side of DB blister and others 52" doors> Jim, I think you mean 86" doors and 82" doors? The change to Phase 2 was March of 1952, and again until end of the Summer of 1952 the Phase 1 units were still rolling off the assembly line. << (2) first change: slots added to fuel tank skirts, date = ?>> {Phase 2} March 1952 until early 1954} First and easiest spotting feature of a Phase 2. -- MARCH 1952 -- <(3) 48" dynamic brake fan, date = ?> After Late August 1952, but it is not clear whose units were the first to receive them as there were several roads receiving units that month. < (4) mu-hose pocket pilots, date = ?> My data shows them to be gone by April 1951. Check it out in the Extra 2200 South 4th quarter of 1971 and then again in Jan/Feb 1972 issue of Extra 2200 South I think they had a roster in one of the 2 months. Al Stump, can you verify this and do you have these issues in your collection? <(5) all hood doors 52" ???, date = ?> 82" doors and this was the second spotting feature of the Phase 2 . -- March 1952-- Please correct and/or add to this information as obviously, my chart is NOT complete. Also, let's list the railroads that had locos that match these variations. For instance, I have photo evidence that . . . NYC (phs1) 5600 to 5609 & 5611 (8/50) then 5626 to 5675 (7-11/51) then 5818 to 5827 (3-5/51) ADD PRR (phs1) 8797 to 8806 (1/52) P&LE (phs1) 5612 to 5625 (11-12/50) then 5676 to 5685 (9/51) I'm not going to do the complete rosters on the NYC, PRR and P&LE roster unless you gize really feel it is necessary, then you might convince me... ADD PRR and P&LE version (3): CRR, CofG, PRR Jim Pennsy's last GP-7's were delivered in September of 1953 to early to be considered a Phase 3 GP-7 Hope this helps you all a bit and jump in here and add your favorite MEMRA or NEMRA roads unit numbers, how about you C&O/B&O gizes? etc., etc. . . . Jim Six ___________________________________ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Oct 98 7:58:52 EDT From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Mt. Union, bridges, what?, where?, when? The switcher is still there. Find the Mcdonald's in Mount Union. Right behind it is the engine house. The windows are covered with louvers but you can see the engine inside. I particularly like the abandoned freight cars with the trees growing up through them. I believe they're located on a siding near the location of the where the refractories once stood. Kris ------------- Original Text From: , on 10/15/98 6:09 PM: In a message dated 10/15/98 12:22:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vck@andrew.cmu.edu writes: > Is everyone starting to get the picture that, as George Pierson (one of > America's noted philosophers) and I know, Mt. Union is a VERY interesting > place?? Yes, interesting for its current traffic, interesting for its EBT archaeology, and interesting for the fossil PRR right of way. One of the railfan thrills of my life was watching a PC SW heading toward street running in Mount Union on DUAL GAUGE TRACK. Another was locating standard-gauge switcher EBT #3 locked away in an engine house. I know, this sounds like a ghost story, but sometime in the 70s I stumbled across it and actually got a shot of the tender markings through a crack in the boards covering the windows. Obligatory Lines West content, almost: We were aware of these standard-gauge 0-6-0's of the EBT because #6 had been sold to the Whitewater Valley Railroad tourist operation in Connorsville Indiana. So I've had the privelege of riding behind EBT steam in Pennsylvania and in Indiana. BTW, I'm not positive #3 and #6 are identical locomotives. But they both do/did have very similar slopeback tenders. Rick Tipton ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 08:53:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Mt. Union, bridges, what?, where?, when? On Fri, 16 Oct 1998 kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL wrote: > you can see the engine inside. I particularly like the abandoned freight > cars with the trees growing up through them. I believe they're located on > a siding near the location of the where the refractories once stood. I got pix in '79 and later of wood-floored flatcars on a siding track south of the main complex in Orbisonia, on a bit of a fill as I recall, with good-sized trees growing through them already then. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 08:48:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Mt. Union, bridges, what?, where?, when? On Thu, 15 Oct 1998 RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > Yes, interesting for its current traffic, interesting for its EBT archaeology, > and interesting for the fossil PRR right of way. One of the railfan thrills > of my life was watching a PC SW heading toward street running in Mount Union > on DUAL GAUGE TRACK. Another was locating standard-gauge switcher EBT #3 > locked away in an engine house. I know, this sounds like a ghost story, but > sometime in the 70s I stumbled across it and actually got a shot of the tender > markings through a crack in the boards covering the windows. That switcher was still there in 1979. Don't know about now. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KTrick45@aol.com Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 08:44:34 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] RR abbrev? In a message dated 98-10-16 02:43:19 EDT, TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes: << It was one of those wonderful little railroads that existed around Pittsburgh. She had another step sister road the P&LE and a real have sister road jointly owned by the Pennsy the Pittsburgh, Cartiers & Youghiogheny -- P. C. & Y. Ry-- or as my Grandfather called it the "Pcy little railway" you sound it out. >> Your grandfather musta been from "the Rocks." Here in the heart of the Chartiers Valley, Pittsburgh, Chartiers & Youghiogheny Ry. was called "The Peachy Wye (Why?)." We'd never use that Rocks language. ;-) Not only was the PC&Y partly owned by PRR, they shared ROW from just (RR) east of Scully Yard on the Panhandle to Woodville on the Chartiers Branch (later, Washington Secondary). The PC&Y outlived the PRR. It was merged into Conrail about 1995, then sold to Railtex with the remnants of the Panhandle to Carnegie and the Chartiers Branch to Arden. It's operated today as the Pittsburgh Industrial RR (PIR). Peace Kevin Still trying to railfan what's left of the PRR Chartiers Branch, PC&Y, and P&WV from obscurely historic Bower Hill, PA ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KTrick45@aol.com Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 08:07:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] RR abbrev? In a message dated 98-10-15 13:44:29 EDT, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: << What would be the PMCK&Y railroad? (MCK may be McK, McKeesport). Pittsburgh, McKeesport & Youngstown???? Was there ever such an animal?? >> The Pittsburgh, McKessport & Youghigheny was an NYC affiliate, operated integrally with the Pittsburgh & Lake Erie. It ran from roughly McKeesport, PA to Connellsville, PA, where it connected with the Western Maryland. It was fully absorbed into the P&LE (I don't remember whether by lease or merger) sometime prior to WWII. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 11:25:25 -0400 From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] where is ...? Where is the Magruder Branch? See freight schedule for MD-117 under http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Frtsched/ -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 10:08:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "R. P. Hensley" Subject: [PRR] RR of Madison County Greetings, It has come to my attention that people were unable to determine when I had changed something on my 'Railroads of Madison County (Indiana) website. Yes, it tends to be a rather static site, but I do add pictures and additional information from time to time as new information becomes available. :-) Rather than add a 'What's New' page (I really hate wading through those), I have simply put the revision date on the main index page at the end of the link. This won't necessarily solve the problem for pages two or three levels down, but it should help anyone making a quick check on whether or not I have added new items recently. http://bsuvc.bsu.edu/~00rphensley/cidwelco.html For those who do not know, this site covers one county in Indiana with it's history of rail lines: Bee Line, CCC&StL (Big Four)], NYC PCC&StL (Pan Handle Route), PRR, CIRy, PC, CR, NKP, N&W, NS and soon CSX (the engines are beginning to show up now). There was also a rich Interurban history as well, but I have not been able to assemble as much information on that as I would like. Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org === http://bsuvc.bsu.edu/~00rphensley/cidwelco.html ============== === The Railroads of Madison County, Indiana ===================== ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 14:09:57 -0700 (PDT) From: "R. P. Hensley" Subject: Re: [PRR] RR of Madison County >Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 13:56:04 EDT >To: rhensley@ecicnet.org >Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] RR of Madison County > > In most Pennsy uses, Panmhandle is one word. It should not be confused >with the Pan Handle Railroad Co., an immediate predecessor of the Pittsburgh, >Cincinnati & St. Louuis (Chicago was added in 1890 with the merger of the St. >Louis, Chicago & Pittsburgh, formerly the Columbus, Chicago & Indiana >Central whose line went through Madison, I believe.) I stand corrected. Let's call it a typo. I didn't consult my own work. :-) Cincinnati & Chicago Air Line Chicago Great Eastern PC&StL (Nickname: the Panhandle Route) PCC&StL (Columbus Div.) Pennsylvania Lines Southwest Pennsylvania Railroad, Cincinnati Division (Richmond Branch) Penn Central Conrail (Southwest Division) [The Honey Creek (now removed) & Indian Creek] There is only about 5 or 6 miles of the Pennsy left in the county. The route through Anderson was Cincinatti, Richmond, Anderson, Logansport and on to Chicago. Roger ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 13:56:04 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] RR of Madison County In a message dated 10/16/98 12:02:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rhensley@ecicnet.org writes: << PCC&StL (Pan Handle Route) >> Roger, In most Pennsy uses, Panmhandle is one word. It should not be confused with the Pan Handle Railroad Co., an immediate predecessor of the Pittsburgh, Cincinnati & St. Louuis (Chicago was added in 1890 with the merger of the St. Louis, Chicago & Pittsburgh, formerly the Columbus, Chicago & Indiana Central whose line went through Madison, I believe.) Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 16:03:58 EDT Subject: [PRR] THE PANHANDLE Most of you on this list may know this, but for those who don't "The Panhandle" refered to the portion of Virginia (West Virginia) that rises North between Pennsylvania and the Ohio River. Prior to the Civil War, Pennsylvania interests trying to secure a direct route West from Pittsburg (no H in those days) were denied by B & O interests in the Virginia State Legislature. One of the first acts of the new West Virginia Legislature was the granting of a Railroad Charter to cross the "Panhandle" - there are some reports that Pennsylvania interests ( or PRR ) gave the W Va legislators considerable financial help in reaching their decision - some things don't change. Dick Ross Cleveland ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] REA wood reefers Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 19:05:43 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Awhile back, I asked on this forum about the dates that REA wood reefers were in service on the Pennsy. I finally answered my own question! In the book "Trains of the Northeast Corridor" (Nelligan and Hartley, Quadrant Press, 1982), in the middle of page 55, there's a shot of a single-wide-stripe GG1 pulling what is "probably" the southbound Senator in "the early 50s". Coupled to the G is an REA wood reefer; immediately behind is an REA steel reefer, then two heavyweight cars (protect cars?), then the usual Congo corrugated rolling stock. The GG1 paint scheme puts it no earlier than 1954 (right?). So, I can run Fine N Scale REA wood reefers behind a five-stripe GG1 in late 1954 without worrying. Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 18:52:38 -0400 From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] Holmes, Brill, Acre, Esplen, etc.... Brill, Holmes, Acre, Esplen, Federal St., Creswell, MA, Bart, Wood, Paoli, Hartsdale What do all of these have in common? They all appear consistently in the freight schedules with a "Ps." (pass) and a time. Curious... why both with this? Accounting? -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 19:20:30 -0400 From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] THE PANHANDLE VVA249@aol.com wrote: > Most of you on this list may know this, but for those who don't "The > Panhandle" refered to the portion of Virginia (West Virginia) that rises North > between Pennsylvania and the Ohio River. > Prior to the Civil War, Pennsylvania interests trying to secure a direct > route West from Pittsburg (no H in those days) were denied by B & O interests > in the Virginia State Legislature. No doubt Virginia and the B&O had a long memory, specifically, of Pennsylvania's denial of a charter to the B&O to build to Pittsburg[h]. > One of the first acts of the new West > Virginia Legislature (which, along with its state, was almost certainly illegally created) > was the granting of a Railroad Charter to cross the > "Panhandle" - there are some reports that Pennsylvania interests ( or PRR ) > gave the W Va legislators considerable financial help in reaching their > decision - some things don't change. > In my view, the Civil War is the most underrated event in the history of the PRR. The B&O never knew whose hands its line was in, save maybe for West Virginia west of Hancock, which remained firmly in Union hands. The PRR had the first _intact_ main line north of the fighting. Though the war was a major strain, the PRR must have profited immensely, both monetarily and strategically, from it. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 20:21:40 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] RR of Madison County In a message dated 10/16/98 3:28:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rhensley@ecicnet.org writes: << Cincinnati & Chicago Air Line Chicago Great Eastern PC&StL (Nickname: the Panhandle Route) PCC&StL (Columbus Div.) >> You're still missing the CC&IC, the Columbus, Chicago & Indiana Central and its successor, the , Chicago, St. Louis & Pittsburg.. BRADFORD, a Pennsylvania Railroad Town,, The CC&IC was formed in 1868 via merger of the Columbus & Indiana Central with the Chicago & Great Eastern and the Chicago Ait Line which gave it connections from Richmond North through Anderson as well as from Union City to Logansport via the line was buildig. Burgess & Kennedy i unclear about how independent operations were of the CC&IC from 1869-1884 other than saying it was perpetually in financial trouble until it defaulted and was reorganizedd as tthe Chicago, St. Louis & Pittsburgh. The financial troubles were eliminated in 1890 when the CStL&P was merged with the PC&StL in 1890 with only the second C in PCC&StL to remind us that it had ever been here. Panhandle was the nearly universal name used for the PCC&StL in newspapers in Dayton, Ohio and Xenia, Ohio, until phasing out of Lines West was complete in 1923. Pennsy Lines West Forever! Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 20:12:59 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Heavyweights and the Civil War Hello folks.... Ok first off...for Dennis Rockwell...One of the heavyweights behind that G you saw most likely perhaps was a Pullman parlor car that might regulary been added to the Senator for added accomdations. Many PRR corridor trains had them,especially at the headend of the trains for the Pullman patrons who wanted to pay more for the better seats. You see a lot of them on the better corridor trains (and some going to Harrisburg and then west). Now for Marks post... Mark..if you can get a copy of the Northern Central book it tells what happened to the Northern Central during the civil war. Many PRR Big Wigs had ties to the U.S. War Department during the war. (Simon Cameron who was president of the NCR and a close freind of Mr. Scott was secretary of War at one point during the war.) They DID make a profit on the war. I mention the Northern Central book as it tells what the CSA did to one of the lines in the Pennsy camp and also tells of the relationship (in a way) between the U.S. Government and the PRR (or PRR associates). Well i gotta run.... Til Later ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roger P. Hensley" Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 20:40:38 +0000 Subject: Re: [PRR] RR of Madison County > From: LINESWEST@aol.com > Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 20:21:40 EDT > To: rhensley@ecicnet.org > Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] RR of Madison County > In a message dated 10/16/98 3:28:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > rhensley@ecicnet.org writes: > > << Cincinnati & Chicago Air Line > Chicago Great Eastern > PC&StL (Nickname: the Panhandle Route) > PCC&StL (Columbus Div.) > >> > > You're still missing the CC&IC, the Columbus, Chicago & Indiana Central and > its successor, the , Chicago, St. Louis & Pittsburg.. No. I'm not missing it. I have never seen any supporting evidence that it ever controlled the trackage through here. It went to Indy and it went to Logansport, but until the Panhandle actually took control of it, and absorbed it, there is no record of it controlling this line from Richmond to Logansport. What is the following quoted from? It certainly doesn't match the local records that I have seen. That doesn't make it wrong, and I'll be happy to add the CC&IC to the list if it is actually the case. :-) > BRADFORD, a Pennsylvania Railroad Town,, The CC&IC was formed in 1868 via > merger of the Columbus & Indiana Central with the Chicago & Great Eastern and > the Chicago Ait Line which gave it connections from Richmond North through > Anderson as well as from Union City to Logansport via the line was buildig. > Burgess & Kennedy i unclear about how independent operations were of the CC&IC > from 1869-1884 other than saying it was perpetually in financial trouble until > it defaulted and was reorganizedd as tthe Chicago, St. Louis & Pittsburgh. The > financial troubles were eliminated in 1890 when the CStL&P was merged with the > PC&StL in 1890 with only the second C in PCC&StL to remind us that it had ever > been here. Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org === http://ecicnet.org/~rhensley/cidwelco.html ===================== === Homepage of the Central Indiana Division, Midwest Region NMRA == ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 21:52:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Heavyweights and the Civil War > They DID make a profit on the war. I mention the Northern Central > book as it tells what the CSA did to one of the lines in the Pennsy > camp and also tells of the relationship (in a way) between the U.S. > Government and the PRR (or PRR associates). I am a CVRR fan and am quite familiar what the Army of Northern Virginia did to local RRs. But CVRR and NCRwy and some others were unique, among PRR properties, in being right in the middle of some of the fighting. But the PRR main line surely was not. Whereas B&O's main was frequently cut in various places in Maryland and W.Va./Va. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 21:46:02 EDT Subject: [PRR] REA wooden reefers Dennis, I just noticed your question regarding wood express reefers, and it got me to thinking. You were taolking 1954, I think? Well, you'd be more accurate using wood than steel reefers at that time, as REA only got their first steel reefers in 1947. There were a lot of leased steel cars (eg Pennsy R50's , GN, AT&SF, etc) but none owned before that time. Even in 1960 there were still 566 wooden reefers in REA service, but by 1965 it was down to four. We're somewhat better off, at least in HO, because the only plastic and low-priced kits are of wooden cars. Can't remember right off if MDC or Atheran makes the round roof car, but I understand that's the "reasonably"correct car. Now if only someone would make those steel 50' cars in a kit needing only moderatre assembly, they could make a few bucks, I expect. There's quite a few 40' steel cars lettered REA, but all the prototypes were 50', or at least so I've read. Regards, Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 00:56:47 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] REA wooden reefers In a message dated 10/16/98 9:19:14 PM Central Daylight Time, BPX29@aol.com writes: << Can't remember right off if MDC or Atheran makes the round roof car, but I understand that's the "reasonably"correct car. Now if only someone would make those steel 50' cars in a kit needing only moderatre assembly, they could make a few bucks, I expect. There's quite a few 40' steel cars lettered REA, but all the prototypes were 50', or at least so I've read. >> Neither MDC or Athearn is correct, but Athearn comes close enough for some people. I believe the MDC car is more like a milk car (except with ice hatches) than an express reefer. And yes all the steel REA cars were 50-plus feet. PFE had some 40 foot steel express reefers. Intermountain has painted and lettered their steel 40 foot reefer reasonably accurately, but don't know how close the actual car comes. I understand someone is going to come out with a steel REA car --don't know whether 1947 or 1955-7 cars. Hopefully, 1955-57, since, despite resistance of a lot of people to craftsman kits, at least the 1947 car and wood REA car are already accurately modeled by Sunshine. Actually, the most time it took me on the 1947 car was the underbody detail. Could be minimized, but the car sides are relatively high so the detail really does add something. I thought it might impress the locals, but didn't realize how few had a clue as to what the car was. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 11:24:28 EDT Subject: [PRR] REA Reefers Hi Bob and Pennsy Folks, Bob Z writes: "Neither MDC or Athearn is correct, but Athearn comes close enough for some people. I believe the MDC car is more like a milk car (except with ice hatches) than an express reefer. And yes all the steel REA cars were 50-plus feet. PFE had some 40 foot steel express reefers. Intermountain has painted and lettered their steel 40 foot reefer reasonably accurately, but don't know how close the actual car comes. I understand someone is going to come out with a steel REA car --don't know whether 1947 or 1955-7 cars. Hopefully, 1955-57, since, despite resistance of a lot of people to craftsman kits, at least the 1947 car and wood REA car are already accurately modeled by Sunshine. Actually, the most time it took me on the 1947 car was the underbody detail. Could be minimized, but the car sides are relatively high so the detail really does add something. I thought it might impress the locals, but didn't realize how few had a clue as to what the car was. " And I write: This is good imfo, but like most it puts us back into the old modeling quandries. While the flat roof MDC car does indeed lend itself to milk car usage, the big,big majority of milk cars with flat roofs were 40' cars. There are of course quite a few exceptions, and some 50' flat roofers did run, but without ice hatchs and with usually very narrow doors and loading ports.Course I don't worry a lot about some of this and for the time being I use tham close to stock condition. Makes a good future retirement project: several hours of fun kitbashing for about another $1.25 in parts. As regards the Sunshine kits, well, they're good for folks without sizable layouts or who are largely model builders. I sure like Westerfield's kits, which are very similar, but there's that slight quandry again.The first Westerfield I built cost me more time than it took to rebuild 20-odd feet of benchwork, 40-some feet of roadbed and laying in about ninety feet of flextrack. At this point in my life the actual layout is taking priority over 20-hour exress reefers, and Athearn doesn't look so bad from that angle. Now I've heard rumblings on the passenger car list about a 50' steel car, but I don't know if it's the welded 1947 car or the rivited 1958 car (#6900-7899, 999 cars). Seems to me the 1947 car would make more sense as it could be used over a larger span of time. I discount the resin kits as being mass market viable because a lot of folks don't want to or don't know how to work on these types of kits. And much as we like to bash them, Athearn and MDC bring a lot more people into the hobby than Sunshine or Westerfield. Having said that , I just send a Westerfield order into Jerry's merchandise service for some more of thoses "retirement projects", cause those cars are soooo beautiful when you slip one onto the layout. Rates just behind a scratchbuilt car for accomplishment. Well, we'll see what turns up, but at least we know a guy can run a wood REA in 1954. Regards, Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roger P. Hensley" Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 12:03:06 +0000 Subject: Re: [PRR] RR of Madison County LINESWEST - Tom V said... > > You're still missing the CC&IC, the Columbus, Chicago & Indiana > > Central and its successor, the , Chicago, St. Louis & Pittsburg.. and I replied... > No. I'm not missing it. I have never seen any supporting > evidence that it ever controlled the trackage through here. and Dan Cupper was kind enough to send me some quotes from the... >The Pennsylvania Railroad Company, Corporate, Financial and >Construction History of Lines Owned, Operated and Controlled to >December 31, 1945. Volume 3, Lines West of Pittsburgh, Prepared >by Coverdale & Colpitts, Consulting Engineers, New York, N.Y. >Printed in U.S.A. by Allen, Lane & Scott. !! Wow, what a title !! ... that spelled out ownership of the line right up to the 1930s. I will be doing a revision of my timeline and owner- ship information to incorporate this info and include appropriate RR names where I had missed them. Gee, isn't it amazing what a typo can do? :-) I want to thank you both for adding to my knowledge of the line that I used to ride to and from Chicago! Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org === http://ecicnet.org/~rhensley/cidwelco.html ===================== === Homepage of the Central Indiana Division, Midwest Region NMRA == ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Heavyweights and the Civil War Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 17:14:15 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell On 16 Oct, bubbles@visi.net wrote: > [ ... ] One of the he