Subject: Re: [PRR] X31f interior Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 08:40:49 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 697 On 30 Jun, Andy Cich wrote: > The Spring, 1984 issue of Pennsy Journal has several pages of tracings > of the X31. Some of them show the auto loading mechanism (Autos - not > jeeps). Right; the X31 and X32 were round-roofs, but the X31f had a higher, more rounded roof than the others, and was indeed for Jeep carriage. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 07:14:05 -0700 (PDT) From: andy mulhollen Subject: [PRR] Rockville Bridge Pictures Content-Length: 2095 Greetings All, The Horseshoe Curve Chapter of the NRHS held an Emergency Meeting Sunday. It was decided that we would attempt to obtain the Rockville Bridge Photos on Ebay. Our goal is to publish the photos using the procedes to fund our current and future PRR restoration projects. We are currently restoring the business car Duquesne. We are in the process of obtaining the Solarium car Union League Club and the Bar/Lounge car Nicholas Firestone , for future restoration. I have asked Mr. Greg Stone not to bid against us if you all were just attempting to save the photos. We have no intention of hoarding these photos and not allowing any access to the public. We hope to use them to raise funds however and do intend to keep any copyright privileges so that we may sell the published photos. In the end the original photos will most likely be donated to the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. Where they will have proper archival storage and display. I truly hope this is consistant with the goals you all have for these fine photos. If not then we will have some friendly competition for them. All the details will be finalized at our July Meeting held on the fourth tuesday of the month. At our emergency meeting all of the above ideas were discussed but the emphasis of the meeting was to obtain the photos. If you have any questions feel free to contact me. Thanks again for your time! Yours in Pennsy Preservation, Andy J. Mulhollen D.O. Altoona, PA _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] rockville bridge photos Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 19:08:04 -0700 Content-Length: 1005 Hi Guys, Some advice please. How much do you figure it will cost to copy 65 photos of the Rockville Bridge. Then try to figure how much it will cost to ship them. Some guys are offering to help bid but want their copies included in the cost. So how do I figure how much I have to place on the bid at auction. Time is running out guys...less than 1 and 1/2 days left to bid. I need more support if you guys want to get in on this. If we are going to bid, then we are up against the Horseshoe Curve NRHS at least and there is another bidder also. I need communication from you guys one way or the other what do you want to do? Greg Stone ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Rockville Bridge Photos Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 18:17:52 -0700 Content-Length: 937 Sorry Guys, The bid on the photos is now $950.00 and the auction is not finished. Personally even with everyones help this is too much for me. Personally I am going to see if the Horseshoe Curve NRHS guys need any help. I am not sure who is bidding against them but the HC-NRHS have committed to publishing them and preserving them. Since that is my goal, and I don't know what the other bidders intentions are, I am going to offer them my support. Thanks for all those who offered to help! Greg ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 16:59:23 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Re: Rockville Bridge Photos Content-Length: 730 Greg: Almost forgot to mention . . . Not that it makes much of a difference, but on the Rockville photos, the eBay description was slightly in error. The Kerbaugh construction company was not "the contractor for the bridge," it was the contractor for half the bridge (think it was the west side, but I forget). Drake & Strattan built the other half. Dan Cupper ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:14:29 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Atglen and Susquehanna Preservation Content-Length: 2272 Hi all, Jerry recently sent me an article from the Harrisburg Patriot News (Sunday, May 31, 1998, pp F1-2) on the attempts to turn the A&S right of way into a trail. Unfortunately, it seems that this effort has failed miserably, and the article says that Conrail's sale of the ROW to local townships has mandated the demolition of 10 bridges and effectively mandated the demolition of 15 more. Six bridges will be preserved. The state imposed an 18 month moratorium on rail to trail demolitions last October, but the A&S isn't covered by the moratorium. So, my points are: 1) An idea which bridges are coming down? (It seems pretty clear from the article that the Safe Harbor Bridge is a goner for sure) 2) Get those A&S photos NOW! Happy (?) Rails (to Trails?) Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great literary works in Braille. ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "tqpj6" Subject: [PRR] Renovo division freights Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 14:19:28 -0500 Content-Length: 505 Looking for info on freights W5, W1, EK1, EK2, BEC2, & BEC1 circa 1948. Motive power, schedule, etc. Thanks for your assistance SSG MCWILLIAMS ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 16:52:05 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Re: Rockville Bridge Photos Content-Length: 2300 Hello, Greg . . . . Greg Stone wrote: > > I am a Pennsylvania Railroad Historical Society Member. Me, too. Great magazine PRRTH&S puts out. > May I ask what your intentions are for these photos [Rockville Bridge > construction photos auctioned on the eBay internet site this morning]? > Do you intend to have them published or preserved in any manner so > that general public may benefit from the historic value of these > photos? Greg, I appreciate the fact that you were attempting to get the PRR-Talk group involved in this auction to avoid seeing the collection split up or having it go into a black hole somewhere, never to return. That's my interest and intention, too. To me, the important thing right now is to make sure the sale is completed. Nothing happens, or can happen, until then. You asked about the future -- another person on the list also has inquired about this. For business reasons I don't want to say much until plans are more firm, which may take some time. Hope you'll understand. For now, it's enough to say that I make my livelihood from writing and publishing, and you can draw your own conclusions from that. I've also been deeply involved as a PRR history consultant to the railroad museum and preservation community, and am sensitive to long-term conservation issues. Again, to report what *may* happen would be premature. As noted, the sale isn't even complete, so *everything* is premature at this point. When plans become more certain, I'd be glad to announce them on PRR-Talk, if Jerry would deem that to be appropriate and not a commercial spam-fest. If you have further questions, I'll do my best to answer; sorry to not offer the kind of details that you and possibly many others would like to read, but this is about all I can say for now. In an effort to reduce speculation, I'll post this note to the list as well as to you. Thanks for writing. Dan ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 07:27:06 EDT Subject: [PRR] Why no messages?? Content-Length: 440 It's been at least 2 days since I've recieved any PRR-Talk mail. What's going on? ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 18:35:45 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] H-45 a long way from home! Content-Length: 1832 In a message dated 98-06-30 03:13:41 EDT, TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes: << SNIP You ask how I could tell it was an original PRR car, well I checked the Trucks for the telltale PRR markings cast into them. Yep it was Pennsy all right and the trucks are marked ACF F-99 PRR V13092 3-65, on the A end and the truck on the B end was marked in BARBER S-2 dated 9-65 so at some point the trucks were swapped out, perhaps a wreck? I could see the remnants of the last two number prior to the NRLX markings, they were ----57. I could also see the keystone with layers of paint over them. >> Good find. However, use caution in using the truck casting information to tell a car's history as car owner's (including we at TTX) swap trucks all the time and even buy secondhand truck sideframes and bolsters to add cars to the pool of trucks. The trucks are reconditioned per AAR Rules and then applied to cars at time of program maintenance or even new cars when built. In fact, we have cars in our fleet built in the 1980's and 1990's that have PRR sideframes as well as many other former railroads. Obviously your finding remnents of the keystone verifies it as a PRR car. Most car owners still stamp the car initial and number on the car when built on the center sill, but finding that through 30+ layers of paint and road grime can be difficult. The brake badge plate may also give who the original owner is. Hope this information is helpful. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] We're Back!!! Date: Sat, 4 Jul 98 19:31:52 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1306 We're back!!! We being, me, listmeister, and the four lists. Things don't go as planned, usually, and we had a derailment on Tuesday night, as best I can guess. Based on CNN reports, a pretty bad storm came through. Power must've only "blipped", cause the UPS kept everything running as it should have. However, the telephone line must've been down, and when it came back online, the previously open connection wouldn't terminate and reset. So, the jist of it is that everything was ready, able, and willing to communicate except for some nickel-a-foot piece of wire!!! All back on line now and playing catchup. Looks like 7/2 was last digest. Sorry, but hey, I needed the vacation...good to be back though. 8-) ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "tqpj6" Subject: Re: [PRR] X31f interior Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 06:30:02 -0500 Content-Length: 1601 Speaking of sunshine, does anyone have a current address for them? Thanks, and sorry to digress from the thread. Mac ---------- > From: LINESWEST@aol.com > To: Bobspf@aol.com > Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] X31f interior > Date: Tuesday, June 30, 1998 12:32 PM > > In a message dated 6/28/98 1:06:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bobspf@aol.com > writes: > > << My understanding was that these turtle-backed roundroofs were built to > haul > Willys jeeps. > Anyone know how these jeeps were stacked in these cars and by what mechanism? > > Bob Zoeller >> > Back in 1991 at the NMRA train show in Columbus, I passed up a chance to buy > an HO X-31f resin kit at the Sunshine Models booth. Anybody know if Sunshine > still offers this kit? > What were they used for after the war. Were they still in service in 1952? > > Tom V. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:45:20 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X31f interior Content-Length: 683 In a message dated 98-07-02 08:09:12 EDT, mac writes : << Speaking of sunshine, does anyone have a current address for them? Thanks, and sorry to digress from the thread. Mac >> I thought I posted this to the list in one of my last messages: Sunshine Models Box 4997, Springfield, MO 65808-4997 Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Cullen" Subject: [PRR] Type of Pass cars for PA/PB Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 21:01:35 -0400 Content-Length: 3622 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BDA78E.EE830340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a Life Like N-scale PRR PA & PB engine on order; should arrive = the end of this month. I was wondering what type of passenger cars = would look best (be more typical) to ride behind the PA/PB?. The = choices seem to be "smoothside", "heavyweights" or "corrugated". Also, = did PRR use E or F units for freight service? =20 Jim Cullen (jwcullen@erols.com) Model Railroad: http://members.tripod.com/~JimCullen Railroad Pictures: http://www.geocities.com/heartland/pointe/1433 =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to=20 "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BDA78E.EE830340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 
I have a Life Like N-scale PRR PA = & PB=20 engine on order; should arrive the end of this month.  I was = wondering what=20 type of passenger cars would look best (be more typical) to ride behind = the=20 PA/PB?.  The choices seem to be "smoothside",=20 "heavyweights" or "corrugated".   Also, = did PRR=20 use E or F units for freight service?
 
Jim Cullen (jwcullen@erols.com)
Model = Railroad: http://members.tripod.com/~= JimCullen
Railroad=20 Pictures: http://www.geocit= ies.com/heartland/pointe/1433
 
---------------------------------------------------------= ----------
Join=20 our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.c= om/forms/spf/index.html.
-----------------------------------------= --------------------------
For=20 assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message = "help"=20 to
"listserv@dsop.com". If=20 problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com".
=
 
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BDA78E.EE830340-- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Cullen" Subject: [PRR] Type of Pass cars for PA/PB [N-Scale] Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 22:30:13 -0400 Content-Length: 3510 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BDA53F.D0BFDF00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a Life Like N-scale PRR PA & PB engine on order; should arrive = the end of this month. I was wondering what type of passenger cars = would look best (be more typical) to ride behind the PA/PB?. The = choices seem to be "smoothside", "heavyweights" or "corrugated". Also, = did PRR ever use E or F units for freight service? Jim Cullen (jwcullen@erols.com) Model Railroad: http://members.tripod.com/~JimCullen Railroad Pictures: http://www.geocities.com/heartland/pointe/1433 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to=20 "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BDA53F.D0BFDF00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have a Life Like N-scale PRR PA = & PB=20 engine on order; should arrive the end of this month.  I was = wondering what=20 type of passenger cars would look best (be more typical) to ride behind = the=20 PA/PB?.  The choices seem to be "smoothside",=20 "heavyweights" or "corrugated".   Also, = did PRR=20 ever use E or F units for freight service?
 
Jim Cullen (jwcullen@erols.com)
Model = Railroad: http://members.tripod.com/~= JimCullen
Railroad=20 Pictures: http://www.geocit= ies.com/heartland/pointe/1433
 
---------------------------------------------------------= ----------
Join=20 our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.c= om/forms/spf/index.html.
-----------------------------------------= --------------------------
For=20 assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message = "help"=20 to
"listserv@dsop.com". If=20 problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com".
=
 
------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BDA53F.D0BFDF00-- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 07:30:15 EDT Subject: [PRR] Why no messages?? Content-Length: 440 It's been at least 2 days since I've recieved any PRR-Talk mail. What's going on? ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: staffsgtyork@juno.com Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 19:45:47 -0700 Subject: [PRR] Happy Fourth!!! Content-Length: 422 Just a quick blessing for a safe and happy Holiday!! SGT. York ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 22:02:29 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Hi all Content-Length: 561 Hmmmm Jerry must be back...getting a flood of PRR talk mail.... Welcome back Jerry. Til Later H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Leary" Subject: [PRR] Improving the PRR GG-1's from Precision Scale Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 22:21:02 -0400 Content-Length: 664 The brass PRR GG-1's (HO scale) imported by Precision Scale run very slowly. At best, they will do a scale 45 mph speed. Has anyone ever developed a solution to make these engines run at a faster scale speed (for example, 90 mph scale speed)? Thanks in advance for any comments or thoughts on this. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 22:31:29 EDT Subject: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 1554 Hi Y'all, I am starting to model Horseshoe Curve on my RR and would appreciate your help. I have looked hard to find an elevated picture of the Curve and found one in the soft cover book; RAILROAD COLOR HISTORY PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD by Mike Schafer & Brian Soloman. I am modeling the late 50's and hope the picture on page 21 is close. Can anyone help me with the following questions: 1-Would anyone guess the approx. date of the picture? 2-Has anyone seen a better or similar picture? 3-Was the horseshoe on the hillside cement or stones? 4-What class cabin car was on display? 5-To the right of the building there appears to be round cement area connected by a walkway. What is the black object in the center of the circle? 6-Do the stairs (stones) start up at the right of the cement circle? 7- What path do the stairs take? 8-It appears the steps end at the top just left of the horseshoe? 9-What is the small building 1/4 the way up the hill on the right side? 10-At what date was the horseshoe rendition added to the bottom step Entrance? Thanks for any help you can give. Jerry ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: staffsgtyork@juno.com Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 19:22:36 -0700 Subject: [PRR] PRR X31 Foxtrot............. Content-Length: 727 Greetings, On the topic of the X31F by Sunshine, does anyone have the current price for this model? Thanx SGT. York _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 07:36:36 -0700 (PDT) From: andy mulhollen Subject: [PRR] Rockville Bridge Photos Content-Length: 1189 Greetings to all, Well the Ebay auction of the Rockville Bridge Photos is over and unfortunatly we were not the high bidders. Dan Cupper placed a bid minutes before the auction ended. His final bid was $1725.00. The Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum had pledged support to our attempt as well. I would like to thank all of you who supported us and those who pledged money. I guess we will have to see what Mr Cupper does with these photos. I'm certain he intends to print them in some form. Thanks again!! Yours in Pennsy Preservation Andy J. Mulhollen D.O. Altoona, PA _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 09:14:34 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Web page Content-Length: 442 Finally updated 7/2/98 - perhaps our comments had something to do with it? Dick Ross ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: [PRR] Re: Sunshine Models Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 09:48:45 -0400 Content-Length: 2749 Hi to the List, Here's the info on Sunshine Models: Sunshine Models Box 4997 Springfield, Mo. 65808-4997 (They don't use phone, fax. or e-mail) The PRR X-31f Jeep Autocar is currently listed as a "Close Out" fit and is priced at $25.00 plus $4.00 shipping for up to 5 kits. Jerry Breon -----Original Message----- From: tqpj6 To: LINESWEST@aol.com ; Bobspf@aol.com Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Saturday, July 04, 1998 11:13 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] X31f interior >Speaking of sunshine, does anyone have a current address for them? Thanks, >and sorry to digress from the thread. Mac > >---------- >> From: LINESWEST@aol.com >> To: Bobspf@aol.com >> Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >> Subject: Re: [PRR] X31f interior >> Date: Tuesday, June 30, 1998 12:32 PM >> >> In a message dated 6/28/98 1:06:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >Bobspf@aol.com >> writes: >> >> << My understanding was that these turtle-backed roundroofs were built >to >> haul >> Willys jeeps. >> Anyone know how these jeeps were stacked in these cars and by what >mechanism? >> >> Bob Zoeller >> >> Back in 1991 at the NMRA train show in Columbus, I passed up a chance to >buy >> an HO X-31f resin kit at the Sunshine Models booth. Anybody know if >Sunshine >> still offers this kit? >> What were they used for after the war. Were they still in service in >1952? >> >> Tom V. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 18:57:55 +0100 From: "John H. Wright" Subject: Re: [PRR] We're Back!!! Content-Length: 2056 In message <899606463.1020477.0@cs6-03.pcn.ptd.net>, Jerry writes >We're back!!! We being, me, listmeister, and the four lists. > >Things don't go as planned, usually, and we had a derailment on Tuesday >night, as best I can guess. Based on CNN reports, a pretty bad storm came >through. Power must've only "blipped", cause the UPS kept everything >running as it should have. However, the telephone line must've been down, >and when it came back online, the previously open connection wouldn't >terminate and reset. So, the jist of it is that everything was ready, >able, and willing to communicate except for some nickel-a-foot piece of >wire!!! > >All back on line now and playing catchup. Looks like 7/2 was last digest. >Sorry, but hey, I needed the vacation...good to be back though. This exactly coincided with me making a total b....cks of my mailing software while carrying out some "alterations". You can imagine the fun and games trying to recover mail from this group:-) Murphy and his laws are alive and well and living in N.E. England! Definitely good to be back. Regards, P.S. If any of you are interested in British O Gauge we have just added a new page on our site for one of our member's layouts: http://www.jhwright.demon.co.uk/psmith/waterst.htm -- John H. Wright Washington Tyne & Wear England Visit the Newcastle & District Model Railway Society's web site at: http://www.jhwright/demon/co/uk/index.htm Descriptions and views of our layouts in: Z, N, HO (USA), HO (Continental), OO, P4, O Gauge and On16.5 Plus members' layouts and details of our exhibitions, news and events. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RLA0220@webtv.net (RICHARD ADER) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 16:04:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] General info. Content-Length: 771 To all, I visited Emporium this last Wednesday evening and discovered that PRR flat car #469613 is still there. It has a wooden deck and has a fuel tank mounted on it. Also the Conrail camp cars were in town apparently doing major track work around Keating Summit. Anyone know anything about this? Position light signals still in tact. Does Norfolk Southern have major plans for this route Rich ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 05 Jul 1998 16:25:20 -0700 From: Roger Elliott Subject: [PRR] N-scale T-1 slips Content-Length: 1085 Hi all! Happy 4th! My N-scale T1 is finally negotiating 18 and 19 inch curves very well and can pull 5or 6 Kato smoothside passenger cars pretty well. My layout isn't big enough to really warrant having a full consist of 14 cars, though, but I would like to improve its traction up the grades. I've put in weight where I could and that helped immensely since before it couldn't pull anything! I tried those Vernex traction tires but without the grooves in the drivers, they keep popping off. Is there anyone out there who can groove the wheels for traction tires? I think only one set of drivers need it, really. Any other ideas or tricks of the trade would be appreciated as well. Thanks, Roger Elliott ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: [PRR] PRR NEC operations Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 20:02:32 -0400 Content-Length: 458 How many trains was the PRR running on what is now the NEC during the 50's and 60's? Josh Trower ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 21:50:33 -0400 From: "Michael L. Wingard" <102361.2253@compuserve.com> Subject: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 3711 ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- From: INTERNET:ARRJERRY@aol.com, INTERNET:ARRJERRY@aol.com TO: PRR Talk, INTERNET:prr-talk@dsop.com DATE: 7/5/98 2:25 AM RE: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Received: from [204.186.21.83] (cs6-03.pcn.ptd.net [204.186.21.83]) by arl-img-6.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.12) with SMTP id CAA15811 for <102361.2253@compuserve.com>; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 02:25:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dsop.com by dsop.com with POP3; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 22:33:31 -0400 From: Message-ID: Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 22:31:29 EDT To: prr-talk@dsop.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 170 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.1 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi Y'all, I am starting to model Horseshoe Curve on my RR and would appreciate your help. I have looked hard to find an elevated picture of the Curve and found one in the soft cover book; RAILROAD COLOR HISTORY PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD by Mike Schafer & Brian Soloman. I am modeling the late 50's and hope the picture on page 21 is close. Can anyone help me with the following questions: 1-Would anyone guess the approx. date of the picture? ---It appears that the train is led by two SD45's. If this is so, the earliest date would be Oct 1966. That is the first month that the PRR recieved SD45's. My guess is that it is Fall of 1967, because about half of the SD45 were delivered by then. 2-Has anyone seen a better or similar picture? 3-Was the horseshoe on the hillside cement or stones? 4-What class cabin car was on display? ---I beleive that it is a N6B with offset from center capola 5-To the right of the building there appears to be round cement area connected by a walkway. What is the black object in the center of the circle? 6-Do the stairs (stones) start up at the right of the cement circle? 7- What path do the stairs take? ---I don't remember, but I do remember them being uneven and not evenly spaced or have consistant hieghts. 8-It appears the steps end at the top just left of the horseshoe? 9-What is the small building 1/4 the way up the hill on the right side? 10-At what datte was the horseshoe rendition added to the bottom step Entrance? ---There is a good picture of this horse shoe on page 24 of "Horseshoe Heritage" by Dan Cupper and is dated 1952. Thanks for any help you can give. Jerry Hope this helps a little! Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RLA0220@webtv.net (RICHARD ADER) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 22:17:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] MOW Baggage car Content-Length: 869 I recently picked up a PRR ( yellow MOW) Standard steel baggage car by Athearn. I never saw one in shops that I visited and came across this one at a train meet, and at that there was only one. I only paid a couple bucks (5.50 if I remember correctly) for it and thought it would look neat with other MOW stuff I have on a secluded yard track. Was this a good buy or is the car so out of prototype that this guy was anxious to unload it and I was his sucker? Anybody else see or have one? Rich ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 04:14:10 EDT Subject: [PRR] Assistance needed for Panhandle Pages Content-Length: 848 Pardon for going off topic but I need help rounding the learning curve on my HotDog Pro 5.0 web editor in regards to uploading. If you know this software or a similar text web editor, please e-mail me directly. Since I'm notorious for my whing about the PRRT&HS website, It's frustrating that I can't sucessfully upload "The Panhandle Pages." TIA Tom V. (and Ii've got the PRR Lines West Fan Fest to publicize. Oct. 17, 10 a.m.-4p.m. at the Carriage House Museum in Xenia, Ohio.) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] MOW Baggage car Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 09:35:55 -0400 Content-Length: 1805 Richard, Knowing Athearn, the baggage car is probably an AT&SF prototype. This is a hobby and if the car looks neat with your other MOW equipment and pleases you, that's all that matters! I personally have several models that probably never saw PRR tracks mixed in with all my exact scale, true to prototype stuff and can still sleep at night. Have fun first! Jerry Breon -----Original Message----- From: RICHARD ADER To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Sunday, July 05, 1998 11:04 PM Subject: [PRR] MOW Baggage car I recently picked up a PRR ( yellow MOW) Standard steel baggage car by Athearn. I never saw one in shops that I visited and came across this one at a train meet, and at that there was only one. I only paid a couple bucks (5.50 if I remember correctly) for it and thought it would look neat with other MOW stuff I have on a secluded yard track. Was this a good buy or is the car so out of prototype that this guy was anxious to unload it and I was his sucker? Anybody else see or have one? Rich ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 02:49:00 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS page update Content-Length: 1235 Hey Guys, Maybe the jawboning at the convention had an effect. I just copied the updated links page from the PRRT&HS web site. Any of these names look familiar? Mark Bej's The Broad Way - What's New •Jerry Britton's Keystone Crossings - Stop by Jerry's PRR-Talk at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/prrtalk.html •Christopher Brandt's Pennsylvania Railroad Page •Lorraine B. Diehl, author; "The Late, Great Pennsylvania Station"  http://members.aol.com//Pennsy •George Elwood's Pennsylvania Railroad Photos •Michael Irlam's History of the Pennsylvania Railroad •Robert Schoenberg 's Pennsylvania Railroad Page •Bruce Smith 's Pennsylvania Railroad Page •Allen Underkofler's The Pennsylvania Pages •Tom Vondruska's The Panhandle Pages •Steve Agostini's Train Tracks Home Page Source for Old PRR Advertisements and Calendar Art Tom V. II Timothy 3:9 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 09:02:30 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] MOW Baggage car Content-Length: 3452 Richard, >I recently picked up a PRR ( yellow MOW) >Standard steel baggage car by Athearn. I >never saw one in shops that I visited and >came across this one at a train meet, and at >that there was only one. I only paid a couple bucks (5.50 if I remember >correctly) for it and >thought it would look neat with other MOW >stuff I have on a secluded yard track. Good place for it!...either that, or hidden staging... >Was this a good buy or is the car so out of prototype >that this guy was anxious to unload it and I >was his sucker? Anybody else see or have one? Bottom line - the athearn cars are not PRR prototypes. They can be used as "stand ins" since PRR prototypes will definitely cost more. The Yellow MOW was a recent (re?) release as I recall. Yellow is appropriate for MOW equipment after 1953. In addition, older heavyweight passenger equipment started replacing the converted XL boxcars about that time. BTW, that price was pretty good! My local hobby shop guy just can't understand why I won't buy this stuff from him! He even tried the guilt trip on me by saying "I know you model PRR so I odered this for you"...HorseS&%T! My response was to ask him to carry Red Caboose, Intermountain and LifeLike P2K if he wanted to do me any favors (He won't because apparently, I'm almost the only person in the Montgomery area who will build these "difficult(?)" kits! My advice? If you model up to the 60's, buy Westerfiled's PRR Camp Car set. It is SPECTACULAR! Never built a resin kit? Scared to death of them? I was too, but Westerfield sells a "how to" video which is SUPER! Buy the video, and build a simple boxcar kit. Then, go hog wild! My work train has moved from the back to the front, because some of my very best models are in it! An added advantage to my "space challenged" railroad was that these cas are only 40 footers as opposed to the 70'+ heavyweight equipment. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great literary works in Braille. ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS page update Date: Mon, 6 Jul 98 13:13:08 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 2049 On 7/6/98 2:49 AM, LINESWEST@aol.com (LINESWEST@aol.com) wrote: > Maybe the jawboning at the convention had an effect. I just copied >the updated links page from the PRRT&HS web site. Any of these names >look familiar? > >Mark Bej's The Broad Way - What's New > •Jerry Britton's Keystone Crossings - Stop by Jerry's PRR-Talk >at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/prrtalk.html >•Christopher Brandt's Pennsylvania Railroad Page >•Lorraine B. Diehl, author; "The Late, Great Pennsylvania >Station"  http://members.aol.com//Pennsy >•George Elwood's Pennsylvania Railroad Photos >•Michael Irlam's History of the Pennsylvania Railroad >•Robert Schoenberg 's Pennsylvania Railroad Page >•Bruce Smith 's Pennsylvania Railroad Page >•Allen Underkofler's The Pennsylvania Pages >•Tom Vondruska's The Panhandle Pages >•Steve Agostini's Train Tracks Home Page Source for Old PRR Advertisements >and Calendar Art Yeah, in fact, I called them on it. Initially they had my site last. They acknowledged that they "lifted" my links page and added mine to the bottom of the list. I asked them to at least rearrange it into alpha order, as they have, placing "KC" under Mark's "Broad Way". BTW: They did add a few other links as well, my page was just the "starting point". Gee, maybe the committee to spruce up the PRRT&HS site can dupe all of our stuff if given enough time! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Building the Northern Central Branch of the PRR in HO scale: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Horseshoe curve from space... Date: Mon, 06 Jul 98 11:04:43 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 487 Cool... http://terraserver.microsoft.com/GetPageByXY.asp?XId=4873&YId=12526&SrcId=2&ImgDate=05/31/1990&ImgSize=1&DSize=1 Rob ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] SALE: July Special: Morning Sun Books Date: Mon, 6 Jul 98 14:34:35 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1623 This month's special in support of "PRR-Talk" and "Keystone Crossings" is Morning Sun books...you know, "Pennsy Diesel Years x" and so forth... All Morning Sun Books are 25% off retail price (check the Walther's catalog) for prepaid orders received by July 31. A bulk order will go in at that time. This special applies to all of their books that are still available, so now's a great time and a great price to fill out your collection! Please add $3 shipping for the first book; $2 per book thereafter. If Pennsylvania shipping address, add 6% sales tax. Make checks payable to "Desktop Solutions" and mail to same at P.O. Box 189, #191; Etters PA 17319-0189. Send me an advance e-mail order so I know your order is coming. Thank you for your support. BTW: Still no word from Red Caboose on a new release date for the HO "PRR Railway Express Agency" X-29's. They missed their June 1 ship date and have not provided a new ETA. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Building the Northern Central Branch of the PRR in HO scale: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] SALE: July Special: Morning Sun Books Date: Mon, 6 Jul 98 15:00:47 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1194 On 7/6/98 2:34 PM, Jerry_Britton (jerry@dsop.com) wrote: >BTW: Still no word from Red Caboose on a new release date for the HO "PRR >Railway Express Agency" X-29's. They missed their June 1 ship date and >have not provided a new ETA. Updating my own post, these HAVE now shipped. I'll confirm availability, then get in touch with those of you who had expressed an interest in purchasing these in support of "PRR-Talk" and "Keystone Crossings". Will be buying by the 12-pack, so I will have different numbers available. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Building the Northern Central Branch of the PRR in HO scale: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 15:08:04 -0700 Subject: [PRR] While we're beatin' the dead horse..... From: staffsgtyork@juno.com Content-Length: 2833 About the Athearn MOW car..... I agree with Jerry Breon.... "This is a hobby and if the car looks neat with your other MOW equipment and pleases you, that's all that matters!" True, you can have accurate models in resin and brass, if it is with-in the range you wish to pay for that particular car. And there will be no doubt as to their accuracy in details. Dr. Smith's advise on the Westerfield kit is excellent advise indeed. Especially the video--good point! WARNING: SOAP BOX ALERT!!! I run a hobby shop and model railroad as well. There is a great thirst for accuracy due to the wonderful parts and model selection that has arisen. This has greatly helped the modeler truely "model" a railroad. It has also given birth to a new breed of rivet counters who have placed a black cloud of "imperfection" over the hobby. Heck-- my Proto 2K sells well initially, then after the dust settles I can't push the stuff out the door at shows for cost!! SO what's the point? Life is short, the market is flooded with more great things than most of us can afford, and we live in fear of scoffers who will overly critique our dream pike. So buy what ya want and run it with the biggest grin you can muster. If you like it, its your empire, that's all that counts! If you spend TOO much time worrying about every freight car's absolute accuracy, you'll be dead before you have enough stuff to run (unless, of course, you are a collector!). Even the great Jim Six builds "close enough" cars to serve as filler vehicles until something better comes along. So Richard...run the Athearn and use the savings to build, say, an X31F or Camp Car in resin. Have the best of both worlds, but enjoy the hobby! This editorial is aimed at no person, but merely the view point of a modeler on Both Sides Of The Retail Fence ;-) And no, I don't do drugs!! Semper Fi, SSGT York Jn. 3: 16 PS--what do you do when you get a rivet counter who wants you to add HO scale bumble bees on your layout? Tell him you'll be glad to when he builds an HO scale locomotive with scale weight!! (150 ton prototype loco would weigh approx. 3448.26 lbs in HO ). Yes, it has been a boring day!!! _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: [PRR] While we're beatin' the dead horse..... (fwd) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 16:12:37 EDT Content-Length: 2166 > "This is a hobby and if the car looks neat with your other MOW equipment > and pleases you, that's all that matters!" > Semper Fi, > SSGT York [additional excellent philosophical discussion abridged] Hear, hear. One nit-pick: > PS--what do you do when you get a rivet counter who wants you to add HO > scale bumble bees on your layout? Tell him you'll be glad to when he > builds an HO scale locomotive with scale weight!! (150 ton prototype > loco would weigh approx. 3448.26 lbs in HO ). Yes, it has been a boring > day!!! I won't comment on the relative boringness of days, but want to point out one minor thing. HO scale is 1/87. This is in *one* dimension. If you decide to model a basketball in HO scale, the radius (or diameter; at any rate, a one-dimensional quantity) will shrink by 1/87, but the VOLUME will shrink much faster. Let's not forget this. That locomotive, being basically a glorified rectangular prism (3-D rectangle) will have _all 3_ dimensions shrink by 1/87. Let's now _assume_ that the weight is indeed proportional to the volume. That makes that 150 ton locomotive's weight shrink by a factor of 1/87 * 1/87 * 1/87 = 1/658503. 150 tons is 150 * 2000 pounds is 300,000 pounds. Divide by 658,503, and you get a much more reasonable 0.456 pounds, or about 7.3 ounces. So, if you really want to criticize someone :-), don't pick locomotive weight. Point out that the speed limit on a 6- or 7-degree prototype curve is about 30 MPH, and that those 24-degree curves you see on that model don't exist in real life except in street-trolley and narrow-gauge coal-mine trackage. Then ask if that shale on the hillside is real, or if it's black paint on plaster... Remember to cluck your tongue. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Fwd: [PRR] While we're beatin' the dead horse..... Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 13:18:02 PDT Content-Length: 3929 I would agree whole-heartedly with SSgt. York. It's what originally drove me (and most others in the Private Road Name SIG I would suppose) to develope our "own" roads. When a fellow modeler walks over to a youth at a club to "count rivets" on his prize low buck model, it can leave a bad taste in the kids mouth, or completely drive him/her away from the hobby all together. Even Model Railroader has succomb to the plight of the 90's modeler, in removing the immortal words "Model Railroading is Fun" from their cover. Kevin J. Tully Still remembering that Model Railroading is Fun! About the Athearn MOW car..... I agree with Jerry Breon.... "This is a hobby and if the car looks neat with your other MOW equipment and pleases you, that's all that matters!" True, you can have accurate models in resin and brass, if it is with-in the range you wish to pay for that particular car. And there will be no doubt as to their accuracy in details. Dr. Smith's advise on the Westerfield kit is excellent advise indeed. Especially the video--good point! WARNING: SOAP BOX ALERT!!! I run a hobby shop and model railroad as well. There is a great thirst for accuracy due to the wonderful parts and model selection that has arisen. This has greatly helped the modeler truely "model" a railroad. It has also given birth to a new breed of rivet counters who have placed a black cloud of "imperfection" over the hobby. Heck-- my Proto 2K sells well initially, then after the dust settles I can't push the stuff out the door at shows for cost!! SO what's the point? Life is short, the market is flooded with more great things than most of us can afford, and we live in fear of scoffers who will overly critique our dream pike. So buy what ya want and run it with the biggest grin you can muster. If you like it, its your empire, that's all that counts! If you spend TOO much time worrying about every freight car's absolute accuracy, you'll be dead before you have enough stuff to run (unless, of course, you are a collector!). Even the great Jim Six builds "close enough" cars to serve as filler vehicles until something better comes along. So Richard...run the Athearn and use the savings to build, say, an X31F or Camp Car in resin. Have the best of both worlds, but enjoy the hobby! This editorial is aimed at no person, but merely the view point of a modeler on Both Sides Of The Retail Fence ;-) And no, I don't do drugs!! Semper Fi, SSGT York Jn. 3: 16 PS--what do you do when you get a rivet counter who wants you to add HO scale bumble bees on your layout? Tell him you'll be glad to when he builds an HO scale locomotive with scale weight!! (150 ton prototype loco would weigh approx. 3448.26 lbs in HO ). Yes, it has been a boring day!!! _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Fwd: [PRR] While we're beatin' the dead horse..... Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 17:09:52 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 742 On 6 Jul, "Kevin Tully" wrote: > Even Model Railroader has succomb to the plight of the 90's modeler, in > removing the immortal words "Model Railroading is Fun" from their cover. And I thought that was because they realized they were plugging the competition! Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] While we're beatin' the dead horse..... From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 98 17:08:22 -0400 Content-Length: 1041 SSGT York said: . . . what do you do when you get a rivet counter who wants you to add HO scale bumble bees on your layout? Tell him you'll be glad to when he builds an HO scale locomotive with scale weight!! (150 ton prototype loco would weigh approx. 3448.26 lbs in HO ). Yes, it has been a boring day!!! ========= Its been a slow day for arithmetic also. You divided the weight of the loco by 87. But to get a scale weight you need to divide by 87 cubed. That yields a loco weighing in at a miniscule 7.29 oz. Now tell you rivet counting friend to build his loco with working (hollow) sand pipes - so he can hope to pull something! regards, Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 17:14:26 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] MOW Baggage car Content-Length: 1088 In a message dated 98-07-06 13:31:41 EDT, Bruce writes: << ttom line - the athearn cars are not PRR prototypes. They can be used as "stand ins" since PRR prototypes will definitely cost more. >> Although you are right on the price, I have considered building up one of my Bethlehem Car Works B60's for a work train. Trouble is that they look too good in tuscan in a string on a mail and express train! BTW, last time I checked three years ago Conrail had a B60 in MOW gray at Elkhart, probably being used for storage. I agree with Bruce that the Westerfield camp cars make one feel great to be an HO Pennsy fan! But their assembly comes after I finish my T1 with decoder and Dallee sound system. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 21:16:38 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Atglen and Susquehanna Preservation Content-Length: 7445 --------------392FB5324AA297E4DE6E830B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy all, >From all the local press (Lancaster News Intelligencer Jurnal), the Safe Harbor Dam bridge is not on the endangered list. Some of the "bridges" are the fill tunnels - at Quarryville on US 222 and below Willow Street on 272. other bridges are for roads over the cuts. Some of these will be filled in instead of replaceing the bridges, like on the Reading and Columbia main at Ironville Road outside of Columbia. The bridge at Martic Ford may be on the list. I'll have to check over my clippings and see if the Safe Harbor bridge was included. cos Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. wrote: > Hi all, > > Jerry recently sent me an article from the Harrisburg Patriot News (Sunday, > May 31, 1998, pp F1-2) on the attempts to turn the A&S right of way into a > trail. Unfortunately, it seems that this effort has failed miserably, and > the article says that Conrail's sale of the ROW to local townships has > mandated the demolition of 10 bridges and effectively mandated the > demolition of 15 more. Six bridges will be preserved. The state imposed > an 18 month moratorium on rail to trail demolitions last October, but the > A&S isn't covered by the moratorium. So, my points are: > > 1) An idea which bridges are coming down? (It seems pretty clear from the > article that the Safe Harbor Bridge is a goner for sure) > > 2) Get those A&S photos NOW! > > Happy (?) Rails (to Trails?) > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and > Director, Nucleic Acid Services > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > ******************************************************************************** > If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup > trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number > of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great > literary works in Braille. > ******************************************************************************** > Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com > _ _ > / \ / \ > ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ > |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --------------392FB5324AA297E4DE6E830B Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy all,
From all the local press (Lancaster News Intelligencer Jurnal), the Safe Harbor Dam bridge is not  on the endangered list.  Some of the "bridges" are the fill tunnels - at Quarryville on US 222 and below Willow Street on 272.  other bridges are for roads over the cuts.  Some of these will be filled in instead of replaceing the bridges, like on the Reading and Columbia main at Ironville Road outside of Columbia.   The bridge at Martic Ford may be on the list.  I'll have to check over my clippings and see if the Safe Harbor bridge was included.
cos

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. wrote:

Hi all,

Jerry recently sent me an article from the Harrisburg Patriot News (Sunday,
May 31, 1998, pp F1-2) on the attempts to turn the A&S right of way into a
trail.  Unfortunately, it seems that this effort has failed miserably, and
the article says that Conrail's sale of the ROW to local townships has
mandated the demolition of 10 bridges and effectively mandated the
demolition of 15 more.  Six bridges will be preserved.  The state imposed
an 18 month moratorium on rail to trail demolitions last October, but the
A&S isn't covered by the moratorium.  So, my points are:

1)  An idea which bridges are coming down?  (It seems pretty clear from the
article that the Safe Harbor Bridge is a goner for sure)

2)  Get those A&S photos NOW!

Happy (?) Rails (to Trails?)
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and
Director, Nucleic Acid Services
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/
********************************************************************************
If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup
trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number
of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great
literary works in Braille.
********************************************************************************
Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com
       _               _
      / \             / \
  ____\_/_____________\_/____   ____________________________________
 |- _______/ O     \_______ -| | __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __ |
 | /      PENNSYLVANIA     \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
 |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________|
 | O--O   \0   0   0/   O--O |   0-0-0                        0-0-0

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com".

  --------------392FB5324AA297E4DE6E830B-- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 05:46:02 EDT Subject: [PRR] (PRR) On the Main Line" on eBay Content-Length: 664 Hard back book with dustcover in very good condition.ON THE MAIN LINE The PRR in the 19th Century By Edwin P Alexander with over 367 illustrations.310 pages copy right 1971.Book is full of GREAT photos of the PRR. Item #20246307 Ends 07/13/98 13:54:19 PDT This is really a great book. Harold ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 21:15:48 EDT Subject: [PRR] The Purple Emperor and The Refiller Content-Length: 832 Today I received a PRR document titled "The Limiteds of the Pennsylvania Railroad Freight Service." It contains a list of 60 "Named Freight Trains" what they carried, where they originated and their destination. I have keyed in the list and it is available via E-Mail for those who would like to have a copy. I did not post it to PRR Talk because there are 60 lines of text. However I could post it there if Jerry gives the OK. Harold Modeling the Middle Division ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 06:30:19 EDT Subject: [PRR] The Purple Emperor and The Refiller Content-Length: 4506 The Limiteds of the Pennsylvania Freight Service 01. The Bulldog – Merchandise – Akron to Seaboard Cities 02. Flying Cloud – Merchandise – Buffalo to Pittsburg 03. The Bison – Live Stock-Perishable – Buffalo to Seaboard Cities 04. The Crackerjack – Merchandise - Buffalo to Seaboard Cities 05. Man O'War – Live Stock – Chicago to Seaboard Cities 06. The Packer – Perishable Freight - Chicago to Seaboard Cities 07. The Mercury – Merchandise - Chicago to Seaboard Cities 08. The Salesman – Merchandise – Chicago to Buffalo 09. The Mascot – Merchandise – Chicago to Pittsburg 10. The Reliable – Perishable-Merchandise – Chicago to Columbus 11. The Virginian - Perishable-Merchandise – Chicago to Columbus 12. The Derby - Perishable-Merchandise – Chicago to Indianapolis 13. The Colonial - Perishable-Merchandise – Chicago to Louisville 14. The Invincible - Perishable-Merchandise – Chicago to Cincinnati 15. Spark Plug - Live Stock-Perishable – Cincinnati to Pittsburg and Seaboard Cities 16. The Cincinnatus - Merchandise - Cincinnati to Seaboard Cities 17. The Captivator - Merchandise - Cincinnati to Columbus 18. The Straits - Perishable-Merchandise – Cincinnati to Detroit 19. The Forest City - Perishable-Merchandise – Cincinnati to Cleveland 20. The Eagle - - Perishable-Merchandise – Cleveland to Seaboard Cities 21. The Gas Wagon - Merchandise - Detroit to Seaboard Cities 22. The Greyhound – Live Stock – E. St. Louis to Seaboard Cities 23. Uncle Sam - Perishable Freight - E. St. Louis to Seaboard Cities 24. The Eclipse - Merchandise - E. St. Louis to Seaboard Cities 25. The Trailblazer - Merchandise - E. St. Louis to Pittsburg 26. The Thoroughbred - Live Stock - Indianapoils to Pittsburg and Seaboard Cities 27. The Bullet - Perishable Freight - Indianapolis to Seaboard Cities 28. The Cat Bird - Perishable-Merchandise – Norfolk to New York 29. The Premier - Live Stock - Pittsburg to Seaboard Cities 30. The Iron Master - Merchandise - Pittsburg to New York 31. The Champion - Perishable-Merchandise – Pittsburg to Wilkes-Barre 32. The Oriole - Perishable Freight – (from Southern States) Washington to New York 33. The Remus - Perishable Freight – (from Southern States) Washington to Boston 34. The Accelerator – Merchandise – Toledo to Pittsburg 35. The Rocket - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to Cincinnati 36. The Big Smoke – Merchandise – Columbus to Chicago 37. Lightfoot - Perishable Freight - Columbus to Chicago 38. The Valet - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to Louisville 39. The Miami - Merchandise – Detroit – Cincinnati 40. The Purple Emperor - Perishable Freight - (from Southern States) Washington to Buffalo 41. The North Star - Perishable Freight – Pittsburg to Buffalo 42. The White Moth - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to Ft. Wayne 43. The Peerless - Merchandise – Pittsburg to Chicago 44. The Hummer - Merchandise - Pittsburg to St. Louis 45. The Standard - Merchandise - Pittsburg to Detroit 46. The Home Run - Empty Refrigerator and Tank Cars - Seaboard Cities to Chicago 47. The Refiller - Empty Refrigerator and Tank Cars - Seaboard Cities to E. St. Louis 48. The Dividend - Perishable-Merchandise - Wilkes-Barre to Pittsburg 49. The Excelsior - Merchandise – Buffalo to Chcago 50. The Challenger - Perishable-Merchandise – Cincinnati to Chicago 51. The Vamp – Merchandise - Cincinnati to Chicago 52. The Queen City - Merchandise – Cleveland to Cincinnati 53. The Blue Goose - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to Buffalo 54. The Meteor - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to Cleveland 55. The Arrow - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to Detroit 56. Star Union Line - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to Chicago 57. The Yankee - Perishable-Merchandise – New England to Chicago 58. The Comet - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to St. Louis 59. The Ace - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to Pittsburg 60. The Renown - Perishable-Merchandise – Louisville to Chicago Harold Modeling the Middle Division ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry and Phyllis Morgan" Subject: RE: [PRR] While we're beatin' the dead horse..... (fwd) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 21:42:51 -0400 Content-Length: 3580 If a rivet counter does not like my PRR layout with Lionel type hi-rail and tin plate equipment, they can go build their own and count rivets to their hearts content! My wife and I will build our layout to suit ourselves and anyone who does not like can leave to admire their own layout! I do this for FUN!! My fun! Not to impress someone else. If someone likes it, GREAT!! Some have more money and can build a larger accurate layout. GREAT! We want PLAY VALUE, and like some scenic detail. If someone want a lot of detail and only a little play value, that is their choice. DO WHAT PLEASES YOU! Take from what others do and apply what pleases you. There is a lot of room in this hobby. Have FUN! Directed against nobody. Meant to encourage everyone to follow their own star. Larry and Phyllis Morgan -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Mark D Bej Sent: Monday, July 06, 1998 3:13 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] While we're beatin' the dead horse..... (fwd) > "This is a hobby and if the car looks neat with your other MOW equipment > and pleases you, that's all that matters!" > Semper Fi, > SSGT York [additional excellent philosophical discussion abridged] Hear, hear. One nit-pick: > PS--what do you do when you get a rivet counter who wants you to add HO > scale bumble bees on your layout? Tell him you'll be glad to when he > builds an HO scale locomotive with scale weight!! (150 ton prototype > loco would weigh approx. 3448.26 lbs in HO ). Yes, it has been a boring > day!!! I won't comment on the relative boringness of days, but want to point out one minor thing. HO scale is 1/87. This is in *one* dimension. If you decide to model a basketball in HO scale, the radius (or diameter; at any rate, a one-dimensional quantity) will shrink by 1/87, but the VOLUME will shrink much faster. Let's not forget this. That locomotive, being basically a glorified rectangular prism (3-D rectangle) will have _all 3_ dimensions shrink by 1/87. Let's now _assume_ that the weight is indeed proportional to the volume. That makes that 150 ton locomotive's weight shrink by a factor of 1/87 * 1/87 * 1/87 = 1/658503. 150 tons is 150 * 2000 pounds is 300,000 pounds. Divide by 658,503, and you get a much more reasonable 0.456 pounds, or about 7.3 ounces. So, if you really want to criticize someone :-), don't pick locomotive weight. Point out that the speed limit on a 6- or 7-degree prototype curve is about 30 MPH, and that those 24-degree curves you see on that model don't exist in real life except in street-trolley and narrow-gauge coal-mine trackage. Then ask if that shale on the hillside is real, or if it's black paint on plaster... Remember to cluck your tongue. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Jul 98 7:28:16 EDT From: Subject: re: [PRR] The Purple Emperor and The Refiller Content-Length: 5054 Is (are) there specific time frame(s) indicated for this list, ie. 1944, 1957, 1960s, etc Thanks, kris ------------- Original Text From: , on 7/7/98 6:30 AM: The Limiteds of the Pennsylvania Freight Service 01. The Bulldog ű Merchandise ű Akron to Seaboard Cities 02. Flying Cloud ű Merchandise ű Buffalo to Pittsburg 03. The Bison ű Live Stock-Perishable ű Buffalo to Seaboard Cities 04. The Crackerjack ű Merchandise - Buffalo to Seaboard Cities 05. Man O'War ű Live Stock ű Chicago to Seaboard Cities 06. The Packer ű Perishable Freight - Chicago to Seaboard Cities 07. The Mercury ű Merchandise - Chicago to Seaboard Cities 08. The Salesman ű Merchandise ű Chicago to Buffalo 09. The Mascot ű Merchandise ű Chicago to Pittsburg 10. The Reliable ű Perishable-Merchandise ű Chicago to Columbus 11. The Virginian - Perishable-Merchandise ű Chicago to Columbus 12. The Derby - Perishable-Merchandise ű Chicago to Indianapolis 13. The Colonial - Perishable-Merchandise ű Chicago to Louisville 14. The Invincible - Perishable-Merchandise ű Chicago to Cincinnati 15. Spark Plug - Live Stock-Perishable ű Cincinnati to Pittsburg and Seaboard Cities 16. The Cincinnatus - Merchandise - Cincinnati to Seaboard Cities 17. The Captivator - Merchandise - Cincinnati to Columbus 18. The Straits - Perishable-Merchandise ű Cincinnati to Detroit 19. The Forest City - Perishable-Merchandise ű Cincinnati to Cleveland 20. The Eagle - - Perishable-Merchandise ű Cleveland to Seaboard Cities 21. The Gas Wagon - Merchandise - Detroit to Seaboard Cities 22. The Greyhound ű Live Stock ű E. St. Louis to Seaboard Cities 23. Uncle Sam - Perishable Freight - E. St. Louis to Seaboard Cities 24. The Eclipse - Merchandise - E. St. Louis to Seaboard Cities 25. The Trailblazer - Merchandise - E. St. Louis to Pittsburg 26. The Thoroughbred - Live Stock - Indianapoils to Pittsburg and Seaboard Cities 27. The Bullet - Perishable Freight - Indianapolis to Seaboard Cities 28. The Cat Bird - Perishable-Merchandise ű Norfolk to New York 29. The Premier - Live Stock - Pittsburg to Seaboard Cities 30. The Iron Master - Merchandise - Pittsburg to New York 31. The Champion - Perishable-Merchandise ű Pittsburg to Wilkes-Barre 32. The Oriole - Perishable Freight ű (from Southern States) Washington to New York 33. The Remus - Perishable Freight ű (from Southern States) Washington to Boston 34. The Accelerator ű Merchandise ű Toledo to Pittsburg 35. The Rocket - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to Cincinnati 36. The Big Smoke ű Merchandise ű Columbus to Chicago 37. Lightfoot - Perishable Freight - Columbus to Chicago 38. The Valet - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to Louisville 39. The Miami - Merchandise ű Detroit ű Cincinnati 40. The Purple Emperor - Perishable Freight - (from Southern States) Washington to Buffalo 41. The North Star - Perishable Freight ű Pittsburg to Buffalo 42. The White Moth - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to Ft. Wayne 43. The Peerless - Merchandise ű Pittsburg to Chicago 44. The Hummer - Merchandise - Pittsburg to St. Louis 45. The Standard - Merchandise - Pittsburg to Detroit 46. The Home Run - Empty Refrigerator and Tank Cars - Seaboard Cities to Chicago 47. The Refiller - Empty Refrigerator and Tank Cars - Seaboard Cities to E. St. Louis 48. The Dividend - Perishable-Merchandise - Wilkes-Barre to Pittsburg 49. The Excelsior - Merchandise ű Buffalo to Chcago 50. The Challenger - Perishable-Merchandise ű Cincinnati to Chicago 51. The Vamp ű Merchandise - Cincinnati to Chicago 52. The Queen City - Merchandise ű Cleveland to Cincinnati 53. The Blue Goose - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to Buffalo 54. The Meteor - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to Cleveland 55. The Arrow - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to Detroit 56. Star Union Line - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to Chicago 57. The Yankee - Perishable-Merchandise ű New England to Chicago 58. The Comet - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to St. Louis 59. The Ace - Perishable-Merchandise - Seaboard Cities to Pittsburg 60. The Renown - Perishable-Merchandise ű Louisville to Chicago Harold Modeling the Middle Division ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Paul W. Schopp" Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 07:50:48 +0000 Subject: [PRR] Named PRR Freight Trains Content-Length: 1120 SPF's: I enjoyed seeing the list of named PRR freight trains, but was wondering if there were others. My father, who worked for the Pennsy and grew up in Palmyra, NJ (along the former Camden & Amboy) would often recall a train coming through town at night called "The Speed Witch." If I remember correctly, it was a perishable freight operating between Camden and New York bringing fruit and vegetables from South Jersey to market. Was this just a local name or could this have been a name assigned by the PRR? I would appreciate any thoughts on this subject. Regards, Paul W. Schopp, Executive Director Camden County Historical Society Park Boulevard & Euclid Avenue Camden, New Jersey 08103 (609) 964-3333 spanky@voicenet.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 08:08:20 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] satellite photos Content-Length: 2231 Hi all! Don Ball posted the following address for satellite photos of the US on the LDSIG list: http://www.terraserver.microsoft.com You have to check this out! I typed in Columbia PA, and followed the C&PD/A&S south along the river to Safe Harbor, where I downloaded a view of the bridges, and then followed the A&S ROW (BTW you can see that the tracks are gone...) to the Martic Forge bridge. The photos are 1992-93 vintage, some are US, and some are Russian in origin (yes, you have been watched for more than 30 years) The detail isn't top of the line, but this is very useful for following rails, and finding intersecting roads. I would definitely consult this source before my next railfanning expedition! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great literary works in Braille. ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 09:15:00 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Named PRR Freight Trains Content-Length: 1368 Andrew Pavlucik, in his book _The New Haven Railroad a Fond Look Back_, has a chapter on "The Speed Witch," describing it as NE-1, a NHRR/PRR train from Boston to Baltimore. The train carried cars from all over eastern Massachusetts, and set out at Newark, Trenton, Philadelphia, and Baltimore, with, at times, additional setouts for New Brunswick, Camdenm, and Wilmington. The details of the chapter make very interesting reading, and are too much to post here (Copyright as well). Steve Bartlett Paul W. Schopp wrote: > > ...My father, who worked for the Pennsy and grew up in Palmyra, NJ (along the former Camden & Amboy) would often recall a train coming through town at night called "The Speed Witch." If I remember correctly, it was a perishable freight operating between Camden and New York bringing fruit and vegetables from South Jersey to market. Was this just a local name or could this have been a name assigned by the PRR? I would appreciate any thoughts on this subject. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 07:37:35 -0700 From: Bill Daniels Subject: [PRR] Scale weight Content-Length: 1574 --------------775B77826CB82E9F2413410A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re: SST York's comment about scale weight > Tell him you'll be glad to when he > builds an HO scale locomotive with scale weight!! (150 ton prototype > loco would weigh approx. 3448.26 lbs in HO ). > No, that is not true. Weight, being a volumetric quantity would scale down as the cube of the ratio (87.1^3=660.776.311), therefore a 150 ton locomotive would scale down to 0.454 lb or 7.26 oz. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ --------------775B77826CB82E9F2413410A Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re: SST York's comment about scale weight
Tell him you'll be glad to when he
builds an HO scale locomotive with scale weight!!  (150 ton prototype
loco would weigh approx. 3448.26 lbs in HO ).
No, that is not true. Weight, being a volumetric quantity would scale down as the cube of the ratio (87.1^3=660.776.311), therefore a 150 ton locomotive would scale down to 0.454 lb or 7.26 oz.

Bill Daniels
Tucson, AZ --------------775B77826CB82E9F2413410A-- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 10:49:34 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Rockville photos follow-up Content-Length: 2168 Greetings to Jerry and the list: Thanks to all those who wrote with congratulations on the acquisition of the Rockville Bridge construction photos. The sale has been completed (I picked them up last night) and they are destined for a fireproof storage home after the first steps of conservation are implemented. The owner had bought this album from a PRR engineman 32 years ago and sealed it for long-term storage. The photos have not been viewed since then. They are prints, probably contact prints, from glass-plate negatives, which in all probability don't exist anymore. They do indeed show all that the owner posted in his description on eBay -- the 1877 iron Rockville Bridge (with trains passing), the construction of the piers (with dynamite shots going off in the water), the contractor's narrow-gauge railroad construction bridge extending out into the river, gondolas laden with cut stone, the huge wooden falsework erected at each arch in order to lay the arch rings, the traveling steam derricks that rode along the top of the bridge, workers wrestling to position the huge stone blocks, and so on. The album was, as described, a record of the work of H.S. Kerbaugh of Phila., the contractor for the west half of the bridge. The most valuable aspect of the collection is not the individual photos, although there are some very good ones. The value lies in the story it tells, showing the contractor's work pretty much from start to finish. When you finish looking at them, you understand exactly how that structure went together. Finally, an observation on the rarity of this resource: In more than 20 years of living around Harrisburg, I've never seen more than one or two photos of the bridge's construction. Thanks again to all who wrote. Dan Cupper ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] SpeedWitch (was:Named PRR Freight Trains) From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 98 10:47:16 -0400 Content-Length: 1097 Steve Bartlett wrote: Andrew Pavlucik, in his book _The New Haven Railroad a Fond Look Back_, has a chapter on "The Speed Witch," describing it as NE-1, a NHRR/PRR train from Boston to Baltimore. The train carried cars from all over eastern Massachusetts, and set out at Newark, Trenton, Philadelphia, and Baltimore, with, at times, additional setouts for New Brunswick, Camdenm, and Wilmington. ======== How were the cars moved from the NH to the PRR? Did the SpeedWitch go thru Penn Station? Could a perishable train with the word "speed" in its name be carfloated across the Hudson? Did it take the Poughkipsie Bridge? If so weren't other RRs involved to get the cars south to the PRR (LV, LHR, DL&W, Erie, NYS&W)? ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:48:02 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Signals Content-Length: 1289 I've been attending the annual PRRT&HS meetings for quite a few years and enjoyed the usually excellent lectures given by our fellow members. One subject that has recieved little attention is modeling a working PRR signal system. Would anyone who will be attending the next meeting be interested in a talk outlining the design, building, and cost of a complete installation? This talk would be taylored for the average modeler, no complicated stuff. If anyone would be interested in a talk of this kind, please send me a note. If enough folks express interest, I'll contact the meeting folks with a proposal for the talk. Tha nks for your time Al bert Werner M odeling the Pittsbugh Div. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 22:08:19 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] While we're beatin' the dead horse..... (fwd) From: padraice@juno.com (Patrick M Egan) Content-Length: 3106 When I run into one of the real pain-in-the-backside rivet counters that needs to be cut down, I ask him if his air brakes work. Pat Egan (no web access) On Mon, 06 Jul 1998 16:12:37 EDT Mark D Bej writes: >> "This is a hobby and if the car looks neat with your other MOW >equipment >> and pleases you, that's all that matters!" >> Semper Fi, >> SSGT York > >[additional excellent philosophical discussion abridged] > >Hear, hear. > > >One nit-pick: > >> PS--what do you do when you get a rivet counter who wants you to add >HO >> scale bumble bees on your layout? Tell him you'll be glad to when >he >> builds an HO scale locomotive with scale weight!! (150 ton >prototype >> loco would weigh approx. 3448.26 lbs in HO ). Yes, it has been a >boring >> day!!! > >I won't comment on the relative boringness of days, but want to point >out >one minor thing. HO scale is 1/87. This is in *one* dimension. If >you >decide to model a basketball in HO scale, the radius (or diameter; at >any >rate, a one-dimensional quantity) will shrink by 1/87, but the VOLUME >will >shrink much faster. Let's not forget this. > >That locomotive, being basically a glorified rectangular prism (3-D >rectangle) >will have _all 3_ dimensions shrink by 1/87. Let's now _assume_ that >the >weight is indeed proportional to the volume. That makes that 150 ton >locomotive's weight shrink by a factor of 1/87 * 1/87 * 1/87 = >1/658503. >150 tons is 150 * 2000 pounds is 300,000 pounds. Divide by 658,503, >and >you get a much more reasonable 0.456 pounds, or about 7.3 ounces. > > >So, if you really want to criticize someone :-), don't pick locomotive >weight. >Point out that the speed limit on a 6- or 7-degree prototype curve is >about >30 MPH, and that those 24-degree curves you see on that model don't >exist >in real life except in street-trolley and narrow-gauge coal-mine >trackage. >Then ask if that shale on the hillside is real, or if it's black paint >on >plaster... Remember to cluck your tongue. > >-- >Mark D. Bej >bejm@eeg.ccf.org > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Scale weight Date: Tue, 7 Jul 98 12:02:49 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1221 On 7/7/98 10:37 AM, Bill Daniels (bdaniels@rtd.com) wrote: >Re: SST York's comment about scale weight > >> Tell him you'll be glad to when he >> builds an HO scale locomotive with scale weight!! (150 ton prototype >> loco would weigh approx. 3448.26 lbs in HO ). >> >No, that is not true. Weight, being a volumetric quantity would scale >down as the cube of the ratio (87.1^3=660.776.311), therefore a 150 ton >locomotive would scale down to 0.454 lb or 7.26 oz. Let'see, should we call the new list "PRR-Geeks" or "PRR-Rivet-Counters"? ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Building the Northern Central Branch of the PRR in HO scale: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] RE: Dead Horses & Rivet Counters Date: Tue, 7 Jul 98 12:25:30 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 928 For those of you carrying on this "rivet counter" bashing and "dead horse" stuff, please do not include the full text of previous posts in your replies. You are wasting bandwidth and junking up the digest and our permanent archive. Thank you. Heir Listmeister ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Building the Northern Central Branch of the PRR in HO scale: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 12:13:48 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] While we're beatin' the dead horse..... (fwd) Content-Length: 3263 >When I run into one of the real pain-in-the-backside rivet counters that >needs to be cut down, I ask him if his air brakes work. Well, since I started this "horse abuse" session with what I considered a perfectly reasonable response to a perfectly reasonable question (Q: IS it PRR prototype? A: NO!), and as a dyed-in-the-wool rivet counter, I feel compelled to point out that in IMHO there is a significant amount of difference between modeling the PRR (being as historically accurate as possible) and owning models painted for the PRR. To digress into questions of functionality is to examine only a tiny into a portion of the whole. (perhaps a more appropriate question would be to ask why that 1920's model has AB brakes? ). What we are striving for in most cases is an accurate VISUAL representation, not an accurate MECHANICAL one (for that I refer you to the 1/8 scale live steam Atlantic at the Lancaster PRRT&HS meeting). You complain bitterly about the PRRT&HS not taking modelers seriously, yet wander off into discussions of "hey, its OK if I want to do it" (It is, but don't claim to be an accurate modeler then). Wake up and smell the brake smoke! If you want to be taken seriously be the Historical Society folks, you need to be as historically accurate as possible. After, that is the purpose of the PRRT&HS (counting rivets, that is). None of us is perfect, and I certainly recognize the flaws in my modeling, but I also see that striving to maintain the utmost in historical accuracy (without being too nasty to the other guy) in my own work IS FUN for me. For goodness sakes stop bashing the rivet counters - we're the ones who result in newer and more accurate models being produced every year. Happy River Counting Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great literary works in Braille. ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: [PRR] Named PRR Freight Trains (fwd) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 13:14:15 EDT Content-Length: 1345 > I enjoyed seeing the list of named PRR freight trains, but was > wondering if there were others. My father, who worked for the Pennsy > and grew up in Palmyra, NJ (along the former Camden & Amboy) would > often recall a train coming through town at night called "The Speed > Witch." If I remember correctly, it was a perishable freight > operating between Camden and New York bringing fruit and vegetables > from South Jersey to market. Was this just a local name or could > this have been a name assigned by the PRR? I would appreciate any > thoughts on this subject. See the PRR freight train schedules on my site. They were clearly named by the RR in the original RR document. I've put off till later creating an actual cross-reference list of all the names that existed at the time (1960) of the freight schedules I'm putting up. (That means -- if one of you wants to volunteer and receive credit for your efforts, please step forward.) -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] SALE-P2K Advance Orders Date: Tue, 7 Jul 98 14:24:16 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1437 I am accepting advance reservations for two forthcoming Proto 2000 releases in PRR livery (HO scale). Available will be: SEPTEMBER/OCTOBER: PA1 PRR #5752A Tuscan five stripe PA1 PRR #5753A Tuscan five stripe PB1 PRR #5750B Tuscan five stripe PB1 PRR #5752B Tuscan five stripe OCTOBER/NOVEMBER: GP7 Phase II PRR #8508 GP7 Phase II PRR #8510 GP7 Phase II PRR #8512 I do not have the best pricing, admittedly, but proceeds benefit "PRR-Talk" and "Keystone Crossings". No monies are due at this time, but I would like e-mail commitments from anyone interested. Please respond direct, not to the list. Pricing: $65 for PAs and $30 for PB's. $60 for GP7's. Add $5 for shipping, any quantity. Pennsylvania residents will have 6% sales tax additional. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Building the Northern Central Branch of the PRR in HO scale: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 14:28:30 -0400 From: Bob Zeolla Subject: [PRR] DGLE Nissan F7 Content-Length: 1329 OK, I went ahead and did it....bought a new car based on my interest in anything PRR. Well not really, but the color I picked definitely had the PRR in mind. Nissan offers the Maxima in a very dark green (DGLE?, no they call it Deep Evergreen), and the dealer I happened to shop at had applied gold (dulux?) pinstripes. Its a beauty! Every time someone askes if its green or black, I get a particular satisfaction that I chose the right color! Since I live in PA and we only get one license plate, I am now in search of an appropriate plate for the front of my new car. Does anyone know where I could locate a PRR Keystone front plate??? Do they have them at the museum in Strasburg? I'm not far from there, and would love to make the trip, but would hate to come back empty handed. Anyone know of a website that offers this type of RR stuff? What color was the inside of the cabs on DGLE deisels painted? I hope it was tan..... Bob Zeolla ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] SALE-P2K In Stock Date: Tue, 7 Jul 98 15:01:37 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1595 I have the following Proto 2000 units in stock, out-of-production, brand new in box: PRR Class Road # Type Notes AP20 5754A Alco PA-1 DGLE, five stripe. AP20 5754B Alco PB-1 DGLE, five stripe. AP20 5755A Alco PA-1 DGLE, five stripe. EFS17m 7160 EMD GP9 EFS17m 7206 EMD GP9 EFS17m 7221 EMD GP9 NOTE: The PB must go with one of the two PAs. If the first PA buyer doesn't want it, it will be paired with the second. Prices: PAs $70; PB $40; GP9s $60. Add $5 shipping per order; any quantity. Pennsylvania destinations add 6% sales tax. All orders pre-paid by check or money order payable to "Desktop Solutions" and mailed to same at P.O. Box 189, #191; Etters PA 17319-0189. E-mail orders holds merchandise for up to one week, first-respond, first-serve. PROCEEDS BENEFIT "PRR-Talk". Thank you for your support. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Building the Northern Central Branch of the PRR in HO scale: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] While we're beatin' the dead horse..... (fwd) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 98 15:16:06 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1754 On 7/7/98 1:13 PM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >None of us is perfect, and I certainly recognize the flaws in my modeling, >but I also see that striving to maintain the utmost in historical accuracy >(without being too nasty to the other guy) in my own work IS FUN for me. >For goodness sakes stop bashing the rivet counters - we're the ones who >result in newer and more accurate models being produced every year. Well stated, Bruce. Although I have not yet amassed a large collection of higher quality models (but not brass), I do now consider myself a "rivet counter" of sorts. That is, for my own pleasure and satisfaction, I prefer to purchase accurate models. HOWEVER, when I go to someone elses layout, I am oblivious to whether theirs are accurate or not. To each his own! I also agree with Bruce's point that any support of modeling on the part of the PRRT&HS "needs" to be one of modeling accurately. That is a must, or we'll see Athearn vista domes on the Horseshoe Curve and, worse yet, (barely) under the catenary!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Building the Northern Central Branch of the PRR in HO scale: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Hbg-Washington Passenger Service Date: Tue, 7 Jul 98 15:38:01 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1429 In the 1950s, east-west passenger trains on the Washington-Harrisburg leg were often combined. That is, one train on the Northern Central Branch might carry cars that, when they reached Harrisburg, were rearranged into numerous trains out of New York - Philadelphia for the balance of the trip west. In reviewing schedules for the individual trains, the consist for each might be "coach" and "type 'x' sleeper". Question: When one of these trains contains as many as six "named" trains within it (as was actually the case), did it have multiple coaches blocked with its sleeper(s) so that passengers didn't have to relocate at Harrisburg, or was there actually at least one coach per named train so that passengers could continue uninterrupted? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Building the Northern Central Branch of the PRR in HO scale: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] DGLE Nissan F7 Date: Tue, 7 Jul 98 15:44:48 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1520 On 7/7/98 2:28 PM, Bob Zeolla (zeolla@erols.com) wrote: >Since I live in PA and we only get one license plate, I am now in search >of an appropriate plate for the front of my new car. Are you aware that you can get a (real) K-4 license plate through the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania? They came out with them about a year ago. > >Does anyone know where I could locate a PRR Keystone front plate??? Do >they have them at the museum in Strasburg? I'm not far from there, and >would love to make the trip, but would hate to come back empty handed. >Anyone know of a website that offers this type of RR stuff? Hmmm. Sounds like a job for our buddy Joe at Liberty Model Productions (http://liberty.dsop.com)! > >What color was the inside of the cabs on DGLE deisels painted? I hope >it was tan..... Doubt it. Was "Olive" in steamers. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Building the Northern Central Branch of the PRR in HO scale: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Jul 98 16:11:57 EDT From: Subject: re: [PRR] DGLE Nissan F7 Content-Length: 2020 < What color was the inside of the cabs on DGLE deisels painted? I hope it was tan.....> I believe F7 interiors were painted Suede Gray Enamel except the floor which was Indian Red Enamel. Hopefully no one will tell you re-upholster. ------------- Original Text From: Bob Zeolla , on 7/7/98 2:28 PM: OK, I went ahead and did it....bought a new car based on my interest in anything PRR. Well not really, but the color I picked definitely had the PRR in mind. Nissan offers the Maxima in a very dark green (DGLE?, no they call it Deep Evergreen), and the dealer I happened to shop at had applied gold (dulux?) pinstripes. Its a beauty! Every time someone askes if its green or black, I get a particular satisfaction that I chose the right color! Since I live in PA and we only get one license plate, I am now in search of an appropriate plate for the front of my new car. Does anyone know where I could locate a PRR Keystone front plate??? Do they have them at the museum in Strasburg? I'm not far from there, and would love to make the trip, but would hate to come back empty handed. Anyone know of a website that offers this type of RR stuff? What color was the inside of the cabs on DGLE deisels painted? I hope it was tan..... Bob Zeolla ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 15:32:11 -0500 From: Jeff Olsenholler Subject: [PRR] Re: Satellite Photos Content-Length: 1611 Since the SPF is interested in a time much earlier than the images provided at http://www.terraserver.microsoft.com , a terrific site of historic imagery is: http://edcwww.cr.usgs.gov/webglis. The Declassified Intelligence Satellite Photos and the several aerial photography programs are quite valuable for providing detailed imagery of the Pennsy's operations. For the modeler interested in a detailed historic reconstruction of an area, these images are a terrific resource. > Subject: satellite photos > From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." > Don Ball posted the following address for satellite photos of the US on the > LDSIG list: http://www.terraserver.microsoft.com > > The detail isn't top of the line, but this is very useful for following > rails, and finding intersecting roads. I would definitely consult this > source before my next railfanning expedition! > > Happy Rails > Bruce -- Jeff Olsenholler Manager, Remote Sensing Applications Lab jolsenho@rsal.unomaha.edu Department of Geography and Geology (402) 554-2725 (voice) University Of Nebraska - Omaha (402) 554-3518 (fax) Omaha, NE 68182-0199 http://rsal.unomaha.edu/local.html ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 16:41:59 -0400 From: Chris Brandt Subject: Re: [PRR] While we're beatin' the dead horse..... (fwd) Content-Length: 1121 > I also agree with Bruce's point that any support of modeling on the part > of the PRRT&HS "needs" to be one of modeling accurately. That is a must, > or we'll see Athearn vista domes on the Horseshoe Curve and, worse yet, > (barely) under the catenary!!! Don't look now, but there's a K-4 a-comin' out of the Bergen Hill Tunnel. --Shoot me now. _________ __\ _ /__ --------\ | ) /----------------------------------------------- ---------\ |}/|} /---------Chris Brandt--------------------------- ----------\ |\ |\ /----------mailto:cobrandt@eclipse.net------------ -----------\ | /-----------http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/------ ------------\___/--------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 14:01:24 -0700 From: Bill Daniels Subject: [PRR] Re: Rivet counting Content-Length: 1713 Let'see, should we call the new list "PRR-Geeks" or "PRR-Rivet-Counters"? ;-) Why limit it to PRR? If I recall correctly, the first rivet counter counted the rivets in the tender of the then-new Lionel Scale Hudson. Lionel had advertised that "every rivet on the real engine was on the model", quite an accomplishment for 1940. Unfortunately, their die makers had managed to miss a couple of rivets, and so a new sport was born. Makes me wonder what would have happened if Lionel had chosen the K4s instead of "the other railroad's" J3a... (historical note...tinplaters will already know that at the same time that Lionel produced their scale hudson, they also did a companion scale switcher...a B6sb!) BTW, I note with interest the rather variable values for what 150 tons would work out to in HO scale. I guess that the variation would be accounted for by whatever you choose for the actual ratio of HO scale. Most people use 87:1, while in reality it is 87.1:1...admittedly not a big difference (except when you cube it and then use it to divide into 300,000. Errors then accumulate. As for me...I get this list as a digest and manage to look at it once a day...commenting occasionally to some item or other, and THEN noticing several others had already chimed in. Oh, well...maybe I shouldn't be so quick on the reply button. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:22:14 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Working Signals and Rivet Counting Content-Length: 3403 Hello folks.... I read Bert Werner's post about modeling PRR position signals and it being a meeting topic...Hmmmmm.... Perhaps there could be benefit to some of us here...old PRR modelers and new to have a little discussion about it here...(Lord knows it would help me) Maybe how it could be wired for both DCC and block type systems. Perhaps a little prototype history and background...how the prototype works(ed)...Maybe a list of manufacturers of model signals... and modeling applications....(Gee would like to see how some of the more complicated junction setups in electrified territory could be done)...LOL (one i have in mind was one of only two odd setups on the whole NEC at the time...the one at B&P-N.C. Jct. and the other was off of the Port Road somewhere...only ones of their type on the whole PRR..(at least lines east anyway) Well just a thought. Now on to rivet counting.... here is my two cents worth.. There was a recent article written in Model Railroader about something along the lines of strictly prototype modeling vs. what the writer called representational modeling. I seem to fall between the two.Sometimes i think if we did'nt have rivet counters we would'nt have the excellent models we have today. But..... When i first started out in this hobby i did'nt know as much as i do now about railroads or the PRR for that matter. I did'nt matter as much how accurate i was as long as it looked kinda right and i enjoyed it. Also 20 or so years ago when i first started modeling there were'nt as many choices as we have today. You HAD to make do with what you could get or modify. Today i still kinda follow this path...while i try to get models (for what i can afford) that are as close to the prototype or kitbash others closer i am content with what i have until i can get something better. To me trying to get almost everything 100 % accurate would be like trying to count every railroad tie in the USA. I could never do it in my lifetime. I want my model railroad to be close to representing what the PRR was like in the time period i model and to hopefully give others who never saw the prototype then or experianced that time period to somewhat get a idea of what it was like then. Sometimes modeling is a art..sometimes its capturing a point in time for all to see how it was. To remember where we came from. And to hang on to a somewhat better time in America's past. And to have fun and enjoy it. not to be distracted from that enjoyment. To quote a line from a old Trains magazine..."America (and the PRR) once had it altogether" (this came from the start of the Trains article on the M-1 engines). And this is part of the reason i model the PRR. Well i'll get off my soapbox now... Til Later..Have Fun Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Satellite Photos Date: Tue, 7 Jul 98 18:25:40 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1027 On 7/7/98 4:32 PM, Jeff Olsenholler (jolsenho@rsal1.unomaha.edu) wrote: >Declassified Intelligence Satellite Photos and the >several aerial photography programs are quite valuable for providing >detailed imagery of the Pennsy's operations. >For the modeler interested in a detailed historic reconstruction of an >area, these images are a terrific resource. But can we count the rivets on the lead K-4 underway as she rounds Kittaning Point? ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 19:28:20 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] DGLE Nissan F7 Content-Length: 2231 Howdy all, My 1984 blazer (A title) was in need of some cancer correction and painting, Kato SD40 in DGLE and had the body shop match it. Topped it off with a single (narrow) gold strip. Not to be out done, the other day in Lancaster I saw a van in DGLE with 5 gold strips. Unfortunately I was going the wrong way and did not get a look at the license plate or the driver. As for the plate, the Strasburg Rail Road Shoppe, check out the second floor. cos Bob Zeolla wrote: > OK, I went ahead and did it....bought a new car based on my interest in > anything PRR. > > Well not really, but the color I picked definitely had the PRR in mind. > Nissan offers the Maxima in a very dark green (DGLE?, no they call it > Deep Evergreen), and the dealer I happened to shop at had applied gold > (dulux?) pinstripes. Its a beauty! Every time someone askes if its > green or black, I get a particular satisfaction that I chose the right > color! > > Since I live in PA and we only get one license plate, I am now in search > of an appropriate plate for the front of my new car. > > Does anyone know where I could locate a PRR Keystone front plate??? Do > they have them at the museum in Strasburg? I'm not far from there, and > would love to make the trip, but would hate to come back empty handed. > Anyone know of a website that offers this type of RR stuff? > > What color was the inside of the cabs on DGLE deisels painted? I hope > it was tan..... > > Bob Zeolla > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 07 Jul 98 17:08:03 Central Daylight Time From: Barry X29Peltier Subject: [PRR] Beating that dead horse Content-Length: 1596 Hello folks, Thanks to those of you who have taken the trouble of laying a little scorn on our good friends the rivet counters! More than a few modellers have adopted a private road nane at least partly out of disgust with the rivet/detail/paint fanatics, main men and tin gods who seem to pop up from under any 1:1 scale rocks we stumble across in this hobby. I wish the guys in the mags could get the message, but I think it's gettin' worse. Heck, even going private road doesn't always help, cause then you run into prototype vs.freelance arguments. And I get a little fed up with some of our favorite historical society mags and their obsessive focus on very narrow aspects of our favorite railroads. Some of these guys can argue for days about what color socks engineers wore, but can't print out a trainsheet to tell you what was running where,when and behind what on a typical day in say, 1957. Oh well, just my way of agreeing with some of what I've been reading. And, by the way, I have seen a nice kitbash of Athearn baggage cars into a B70. Lotta work using just the narrow door ends, but the price was right, and it was certainly "good-enough" modelling for me! Regards, Barry Peltier St.Paul, MN ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 20:18:44 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] SpeedWitch (was:Named PRR Freight Trains) Content-Length: 1345 Andrew S. Miller wrote: > > ...How were the cars moved from the NH to the PRR?.......Could a perishable train with the word "speed" in its name be carfloated across the Hudson? ... Going back to Mr. Pavlucik again, he states that the Speed Witch ran to Bay Ridge Yard, Brooklyn, where cars were transferred to car floats and ferried across to the PRR's Greenville, New Jersey, float terminal. Cars moved twenty per float, two floats per tug. NE-2, the eastbound Speed Witch was scheduled to meet NE-1 between Bridgeport and Stamford, with NE-1 arriving Bay Ridge at 1:40 AM. He states the Newark, Camden, Philadelphia, and Wilmington cars were delivered to their terminals, with the New Brunswick, Trenton, and Baltimore cars delivered by Noon. Now we have "Progress." Pavlucik quotes a retired New Haven fireman watching a parade of tractor-trailer rigs passing the New Haven YMCA: "There it all goes, one engine and one driver per boxcar..." Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 22:13:05 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Signals Content-Length: 2735 In a message dated 7/7/98 11:48:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, AJW1957@aol.com writes: > I've been attending the annual PRRT&HS meetings for quite a few years and > enjoyed the usually excellent lectures given by our fellow members. One > subject that has recieved little attention is modeling a working PRR signal > system. Would anyone who will be attending the next meeting be interested in > a > talk outlining the design, building, and cost of a complete installation? > This > talk would be taylored for the average modeler, no complicated stuff. > If anyone would be interested in a talk of this kind, please send me a note. > If enough folks express interest, I'll contact the meeting folks with a > proposal for the talk. > > > Tha > nks for your time > > Al > bert Werner > > M > odeling the Pittsbugh Div. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Gee, Albert -- can't think of more than 200 or so PRRT&HS people who would sit still for a clinic like this. I also think your program notes wouldn't circulate to more than a few hundred others. (Warning - experience tells me that people will be contacting you for materials long after the presentation, so you also might want to plan following up with an article in one of the model magazines. Save you a ton of phone calls) Seriously, one of the reasons that signalling on pikes like mine is put off to the next millenium (oops, going to have to move it farther out soon) is because it is not easy to do justice to prototype signalling. I would think your clinic, accompanied by a good handout, would be widely (and gratefully) received at the PRRT&HS annual meeting. But don't just take my word for it. Mark Bej is a PRR signalling enthusiast. What does Mark think of such a clinic? (Speak up, Mark). Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rail Classics" Subject: [PRR] New PRR Web Site Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 22:14:55 -0400 Content-Length: 685 Hello fellow PRR enthusiast; I would like to introduce myself and my company to you. My name is Eddy Piazza of Rail Classics. We are importers of PRR "HO" Scale Brass. We now have a Web Site at www.railclassics.com. When you have a spare moment visit our site, it will give you an idea what Rail Classics is all about. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 22:28:37 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Signals Content-Length: 1066 Hi, Al - Funny that you should mention this topic of PRR model signalling... I wrote a detailed desciption up for this type of project back in in 1985; Steve Grabowski loved it, and urged me to re-write the article for the Keystone....editor Blardone has had my article for a year or so,,...waiting for 'room'. Possibly a 'nudge' from members would push up the printing schedule..?? I worked for the PRR 1965 to the end, and had built a working four track PRR style, PL signals interlocking on my o scale model RR just as CR took over my former employer ( 4/1/76 ). Several of us belong to both the PRR and the Signal SIG, and would welcome the discussion that you mentioned.......Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 23:06:02 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] SpeedWitch (was:Named PRR Freight Trains) Content-Length: 638 A typo correction: "...He states the Newark, Camden, Philadelphia, and Wilmington cars were delivered to their terminals _soon after dawn_, with the New Brunswick, Trenton, and Baltimore cars delivered by Noon..." Sorry, I left out the "dawn" reference. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 23:25:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Signals Content-Length: 898 > I wrote a detailed desciption up for this type of project back in in 1985; > Steve Grabowski loved it, and urged me to re-write the article for the > Keystone....editor Blardone has had my article for a year or so,,...waiting > for 'room'. Yum, yet another thing to wait for. Perhaps by the time we see itmy attic will be ready for me to start working on a layout... Prototypically accurate signalling information would be welcomed here; I'd even be willing to buy a book on PRR signalling practices if one existed. -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry and Phyllis Morgan" Subject: RE: [PRR] While we're beatin' the dead horse..... (fwd) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 22:28:17 -0400 Content-Length: 1429 I have no problem with a rivet counter who counts rivets on their own layout. I will refuse to buy PRR items I do not believe are accurate or pertinent for the time period I model. Try to find reasonably good representation in O Gauge 3 rail! But I prefer the fun I can have with operating cars and things. Those may not be fun for anyone else. I promise not to criticize a rivet counters layout when I visit it. I would come to admire the work. Nor would I criticize the layout with tinplate track on a bare piece of plywood or just laid on the floor. I would not expect anyone to criticize my layout either. I would hope we can all appreciate the other's point of view and not be rude enough to criticize the person who has opened their home. The rivet counter who tells criticizes me layout will be invited to enjoy their own and let me enjoy mine. I relish the ultra rivet counter who allows me a little latitude. I want to learn from them. Perhaps they will want to learn some electronic techniques from me. Happy Trains!! Larry Morgan ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 01:48:16 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] While we're beatin' the dead horse..... (reply) Content-Length: 3053 Bruce, Bless you my son! But nothing comes without compromise. Realism is as important as counting rivets, that are too big to begin with. But Bruce you are right! We must challenge ourselves to model as "realistic" as possible, or just put it under the tree and put it away after Christmas. Are we modelers or Toy Train enthusiast? I for one want my models to visually represent the actual production piece as closely as I possibly can. But I also write articles and actively promote compromise simply because I feel a need to inspire others with my modeling and not everybody is going to put the kind of work into their modeling that I do, so I offer a plausible compromise. But do not get me wrong I like to push my ability every chance I get. Just running trains doesn't make it for me. Watching from LINES way out WEST Greg Martin Original message from Bruce Smith: >When I run into one of the real pain-in-the-backside rivet counters that >needs to be cut down, I ask him if his air brakes work. Well, since I started this "horse abuse" session with what I considered a perfectly reasonable response to a perfectly reasonable question (Q: IS it PRR prototype? A: NO!), and as a dyed-in-the-wool rivet counter, I feel compelled to point out that in IMHO there is a significant amount of difference between modeling the PRR (being as historically accurate as possible) and owning models painted for the PRR. To digress into questions of functionality is to examine only a tiny into a portion of the whole. (perhaps a more appropriate question would be to ask why that 1920's model has AB brakes? ). What we are striving for in most cases is an accurate VISUAL representation, not an accurate MECHANICAL one (for that I refer you to the 1/8 scale live steam Atlantic at the Lancaster PRRT&HS meeting). You complain bitterly about the PRRT&HS not taking modelers seriously, yet wander off into discussions of "hey, its OK if I want to do it" (It is, but don't claim to be an accurate modeler then). Wake up and smell the brake smoke! If you want to be taken seriously be the Historical Society folks, you need to be as historically accurate as possible. After, that is the purpose of the PRRT&HS (counting rivets, that is). None of us is perfect, and I certainly recognize the flaws in my modeling, but I also see that striving to maintain the utmost in historical accuracy (without being too nasty to the other guy) in my own work IS FUN for me. For goodness sakes stop bashing the rivet counters - we're the ones who result in newer and more accurate models being produced every year. Happy River Counting Bruce ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 01:50:44 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] While we're beatin' the dead horse..... (fwd) Content-Length: 2012 I fall somewhere between good enough and a rivet counter (I won't run an Athearn flatcar lettered for PRR but the underbody detail on my Sunshine FM kits consists of lead sheet to get operating weight). 30 years ago I unembarassedly (is there such a word?) ran SP baywindows and SF cupola cabooses with Pennsy lettering. Still have a Balboa brass SP diner lettered PRR in the attic. I think it is the height of rudeness for a visitor to a layout to criticize the host's approach. I don't expect people to agree with everything I do in model railroading and that is why I prefer my own layout over which I can rule with a benevolent dictatorship. Unfortunately I am now apartment living now so to run mainline trains, I need to belong to a club and that is where I have a problem. I have to walk a fine line between keeping my own sanity and not spoiling another guy's fun. I won't count rivets, but I will point out that those are S gauge tractors on that HO flatcar (as sold by the kajillions at train shows). It is just too disconcerting to me to see something that large which is 50% over scale(we're not talking about handrails here). OTOH I wouldn't say anything if it was a guy's home layout and guys at the club can run their Roco European trains next to my 1948 Broadway without it disturbing me. So everyone has a different threshold of sensitivity. My $.02 worth. To keep my sanity, I am planning a switching layout at home where my Westerfield, Sunshine, Yankee Clipper, Tichy, Funaro & Camerlengo, Red Caboose, Intermountain, and Bowser cars will dominate. Have to have some kingdom to run :-) Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Niche Niche Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 22:29:11 -0700 Content-Length: 1574 I have listened to this type of conversations about rivet counters or not in many forms: Three rail vs. two rail in "o"scale, prototype vs fictional. etc. I recently took some very expensive Fine Art Models Broadway Limited cars to a club layout and a historian pointed out some flaws in my model, some minor some not so minor. Now why should that upset me? Ask yourself that question. Why does it upset you when someone points out an inaccuracy in your model? I listened to his critique interested in what he said. I still like my models and I accept their flaws and thought about the feasibility of correcting them. Everyone has their niche and area of special interest. We all have personal taste. Ones ideal is not the same as another. Don't be upset about it. Enjoy the diversity of human interest. The next time someone critiques your model just take for what it is: their opinion or special interest in your model, not a personal criticism of you and your skills or knowledge. Unless of course that is their intent. If so don't get upset over these type people, just recognize them for what they are: a little insecure. Then get on with enjoying your personal niche and have fun most of all!! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 20:36:10 +0000 From: tmahon@cfnh.com (Tom Mahon) Subject: [PRR] PRR Promo Videos on e-Bay Content-Length: 743 Good Morning, While browsing the "Ending Today" list on Railroad Models on e-Bay came across two videos labeled as promos from PRR one re GG-1 and other on speed control in locomotives. Items #'s are 19619194 and 19619495, respectively and auctions end at 11:43 and 11:46 PDT, respectively. There is a reserve on each. There were no bids when I saw them at 8:30 EDT. Tom Mahon ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Promo Videos on e-Bay Date: Wed, 8 Jul 98 09:07:39 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1610 On 7/8/98 4:36 PM, Tom Mahon (tmahon@cfnh.com) wrote: >While browsing the "Ending Today" list on Railroad Models on e-Bay came >across two videos labeled as promos from PRR one re GG-1 and other on >speed control in locomotives. Items #'s are 19619194 and 19619495, >respectively and auctions end at 11:43 and 11:46 PDT, respectively. >There is a reserve on each. There were no bids when I saw them at 8:30 >EDT. These are reruns from two weeks ago. I was high bidder on both, at $7 each. They offered to sell them at their reserve of $10 each, but I declined. They weren't that big of a deal to me. HOWEVER, if anyone is willing to invest in these and lend them to me, I can convert them to QuickTime format for distribution on the next "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings" CD-ROM. Your reward will be a free copy of the next CD which will include, among other things, all three CT1000's from 1945... Plan to ship this fall. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Building the Northern Central Branch of the PRR in HO scale: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roger P. Hensley" Subject: [PRR] Labelle Woodworking Web Site Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:29:54 -0500 (EST) Content-Length: 1637 Good day all, I am pleased to announce that the New LaBelle Woodworking Company now has a web site available at: http://www.rrhistorical-2.com/labelle Labelle Woodworking manufactures quality wood model railroad kits for some of those hard to find older style HO Passenger & Freight Cars, HOn3 Passenger and Freight Cars, HO Traction kits, O Scale passenger & Freight Cars, O Scale Traction and On3 kits. The Labelle site includes drawings of the various kits as well as price list/order forms for all of their kits, accessories and custom decals. Accessories include HO and O passenger car & freight car trucks, narrow gauge trucks for HO and O passenger and HO freight cars, HO Traction power units and more. Stop by and take a look, and then, spread the word. Please Note: I am not affiliated with LaBelle. I happen to know the owners and believe that their products and efforts are worthy of note. Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org === http://bsuvc.bsu.edu/~00rphensley/cidwelco.html ================ === The Railroads of Madison County, Indiana ======================= ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] PRR GP7's...what phase Date: Wed, 8 Jul 98 09:52:34 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 711 What phase(s) were the GP7's bought by the Pennsy? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Building the Northern Central Branch of the PRR in HO scale: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Dead horses Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 11:02:17 EDT Content-Length: 6209 Mortuequinobattaria ... Latin corrections graciously accepted ... with visions of "Romane eunt domino" in one's head ... > Well, since I started this "horse abuse" session with what I considered a > perfectly reasonable response to a perfectly reasonable question (Q: IS it > PRR prototype? A: NO!), The question and answer itself, as presented, are perfectly reasonable. What is not reasonable, moral, kind, or acceptable per standard rules of etiquette is imposing your opinions on others, particularly when such opinions are not desired. Which I'm NOT saying you [Bruce] did, but all of us know people who do, and feel it is their _duty_ to do, within their (often quite) limited area of expertise. (The most dangerous are those who don't recognize their own limitations -- something true in whatever field you're in.) > and as a dyed-in-the-wool rivet counter, I feel > compelled to point out that in IMHO there is a significant amount of > difference between modeling the PRR (being as historically accurate as > possible) and owning models painted for the PRR. What is "modeling the PRR?" Allow me to be so bold as to say that you are creating (and, to some degree, imposing upon others) your own definition. Is "modeling the PRR" mean having accurate car bodies? Accurate car painting/lettering? Accurate locomotive types and/or painting/lettering? Most people stop here. How about accurate track layouts? Accurate sequences of stations (not skipping stations)? Accurate buildings? Accurate topography for the location? Accurate non-railroad buildings (factories, houses, etc.)? Accurate signals and catenary? Accurate Accurate Form 19s, block sheets, and other operating practices? Accurate rule books? Accurate Employee Timetables and Special Instructions? Accurate freight and passenger train schedules? Accurate consists? Accurate train lengths? Accurate traffic densities? All for the relevant time period, of course. > To digress into questions > of functionality is to examine only a tiny into a portion of the whole. > (perhaps a more appropriate question would be to ask why that 1920's model > has AB brakes? ). What we are striving for in most cases is an accurate > VISUAL representation, not an accurate MECHANICAL one OK, point well taken. But an accurate or good or representative visual representation would, or could, include the specific points I indicated above, too. > If [one wants] to be taken seriously be the Historical Society folks, > you need to be as historically accurate as possible. After, that is the > purpose of the PRRT&HS (counting rivets, that is). I agree. That _is_ indeed the purpose of the PRRT&HS. However ... > None of us is perfect, and I certainly recognize the flaws in my modeling, > but I also see that striving to maintain the utmost in historical accuracy > (without being too nasty to the other guy) in my own work IS FUN for me. > For goodness sakes stop bashing the rivet counters - we're the ones who > result in newer and more accurate models being produced every year. Two points: One, there is such a thing as excessive rivet counting. Such an excess ultimately either 1) drives up the price of the available models or 2) takes them off the market or prevents them from being on the market in the first place, being too much of a "niche" item. The pedants might be happy; on the other hand, one must recognize that PRR may end up being viewed as "elitist", or the common MR may end up thinking that the Santa Fe was as large or important a RR as the PRR. NOTE carefully that I am NOT advocating PRR vista-domes, etc. Simply pointing out that some level of compromise may be necessary. Two. I also agree that being as historically accurate as practical is good. I choose my words carefully here: _as historically accurate as practical_. The level of practicality will necessarily vary with the modeller. All of us have other things to do: work, family, lives to live. None of us has infinite time or money. (Hell, the 1:1 didn't, either - how long did them take to reach New York???) Therefore, we ALL FAIL the "total prototypicality" test. We all must choose to what _degree_ we wish to fail it. I.e., what are we comfortable with? One may decide to go with maximal visual accuracy of train consists, and spend so much time building/modifying/kitbashing cars that he can't devote enough time to accurate topography (scenery) or operational accuracy. (I personally think many fall into this category, and feel that this is the most important "accurate modelling" factor, to the exclusion of others.) Others may concentrate on the visual representation of that bridge or river or hillside (counting bridge rivets, if you will) and decide to wing it with cars and locos. It's _their_ choice, and others have no right to criticize. It is best, of course, if the given modeller _recognizes_ the compromises he has made... Criticism _is_ permitted, yea I would argue expected, necessary, and proper, when the modeller displays excessive pomposity, or makes excessive claims, as to the accuracy of whatever aspect of his pike. But if that modeller humbly says "yes, I was kitbashing that Fort Wayne Bridge for 2 years, and wanted _something_ to run over it" or "I've not had the time yet to repaint those Athearn models but wanted PRR-lettered stuff", ye shall keep a civil tongue in ye head, and ye shall neither sniff nor chortle, but ye shall display appropriate reverence for what that modeller decided to do _well_ -- and if ye be civil, offer thy aid and comfort in those areas that the modeller knoweth less well and where he desireth the aid. I humbly cede the floor to the next speaker. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Signals (fwd) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 11:13:32 EDT Content-Length: 2339 > Seriously, one of the reasons that signalling on pikes like mine is put off to > the next millenium (oops, going to have to move it farther out soon) is > because it is not easy to do justice to prototype signalling. I would think > your clinic, accompanied by a good handout, would be widely (and gratefully) > received at the PRRT&HS annual meeting. I spoke of compromises on model pikes (without using that word too much) in my last post. Signals are as much a compromise as anything else, with cost being a big factor. The issues/questions are: 1) do you want prototype _appearance_ only (non-working signals)? 2) do you want simple stop/go? 3) do you want stop/approach/go? 4) do you want the full thing? Most model railroads are nearly continuous interlockings, when it comes right down to it. Unfortunately, most vendors, if they sell electronics for operating signals, sell electronics not for interlocking signals, but for automatic signals. Finally, most vendors are looking to sell to the mass market. It's easy to sell a bunch of searchlight or tri-light signals with 2 or 3 heads that look good or OK. These will work (be close, in other words) for any US/Can. RR (that used those kinds of signals, of course!) But every railroad _used_ those signals slightly differently, and sometimes, differently on different lines. And I'm not even trying to discuss time periods here! This is tough, really tough, to do in any way, shape, or form _without_ involving computer software. And until quite recently, Dr. Bruce Chubb excepted, the words "computer" and "model railroader" may as well have been "oil" and "water". > But don't just take my word for it. Mark Bej is a PRR signalling enthusiast. > What does Mark think of such a clinic? (Speak up, Mark). I would be willing to work with other willing members on such a clinic, if they are willing to work with me. I'll leave it at that for now. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:18:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Vagel Charles Keller Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/07/98 Content-Length: 1823 Excerpts from mail: 7-Jul-98 PRR-Talk Digest - 07/07/98 by "PRR-Talk"@dsop.com > Seriously, one of the reasons that signalling on pikes like mine is put > off to the next millenium (oops, going to have to move it farther out > soon) is because it is not easy to do justice to prototype signalling. Missed the initial entry on this topic, but would like to point out, if no one else has, that Gary Salzgaber (hope I got the last name spelled right) is a Columbus, OH model railroader with a PRR-based layout that features operating scale position lights ... there is a video on this layout, done by a small-scale production company. Some of you Lines West folks might know (or know of) his layout. BTW, to add fuel to the other brush fire ... Gary's layout is freelance ITO topography and geography, but the equipment is close enough to challenge most rivet counters. The highlights, for me, (in addition to the wonderful signal system) are the trackside power pole line strung with filament-thin elastic thread, the highly detailed and era-correct rolling stock, and the steam-diesel transition fleet of motive power, all nicely detailed and train-phoned. Here is a model railroad that it pleasing to it's owner and pleasing to the visitor precisely because it does not pretend to be other than it is: one man's recollection of his favorite aspects of the Standard Railroad of the World. Vagel Keller Carnegie Mellon University ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 17:56:40 +0100 From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] While we're beatin the dead horse Content-Length: 1957 This thread looks like it might develop into yet another acrimonious waste of space. Surely the main point of any debate along these lines ought to be how we modellers are perceived by others, particularly others that matter (the PRRT&HS in this case). Improving the relationship between modellers and historians is a long term war of attrition....at least it has been in this country. Respect and influence has been won mainly by better, more accurate modelling, backed up by research and many articles both in the model railway press and in society journals. This constant drip-feed of excellence has eventually turned the tide, and many railway societies now have an influential quota of modellers on their committees, but it has taken many years. There is room in this hobby for all persuasions, and we should not seek to detract or criticise through prejudice. Ultimately, though, it is the pursuit of quality that will bring the most positive results and this needs to be recognised, just as rivet counters (hate that phrase) should allow folks to have their "fun". Personally, I think you can have accurate models and still have fun .....that's the reason I model in Amercian (PRR) HO. Regards, -- John H. Wright Washington Tyne & Wear England Visit the Newcastle & District Model Railway Society's web site at: http://www.jhwright.demon.co.uk/index.htm Descriptions and views of our layouts in: Z, N, HO (USA), HO (Continental), OO, P4, O Gauge and On16.5 Plus members' layouts and details of our exhibitions, news and events. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:16:41 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Ain't I ah stinka????? From: staffsgtyork@juno.com (David W. York) Content-Length: 2576 Well, now--I do feel much better. The group was a little slow in responses, and I being bored on a slow sales day, opened the "55 gallon drum of kick butt". As Bugs Bunny would say: "ain't I ah stinka?" But I am pleased with the response--every one proper. ( And what a beautiful column by Mark D.! sniff--couldn't have said it better!). No one can criticize our group now as not accurate in our pursuit of historical preservation, nor as mean spirited in our responses to other's dreams and quests for information. This is a great group we have!! Shame we can't have a big operating session! I certainly don't hold severe criticism over other layouts, but do share what info I have when asked. Besides, my favorite steam engines have propellers(some of your eyes just glazed over!), and I dream of combining the two (Boats and locos) on a WW2 era Delmarva Cape Charles scene. Right now I live with a 1966-today freight/ car float yard as a modular layout. Imagine the compromises I have to make to the yard (tracks stayed roughly the same) to run PRR, Penn Central, Virginia & Maryland RR, and the Eastern Shore RR. Representation of select years of operation becomes more important than exact replication for obvious reasons!! I spend more time in accuracy of freight cars (LOVE ' EM More than Locos!), engine consists, and tug boats!! But this is my personal (space inhibited) dream. And Did I say Penn Central? Yupp! Not a favorite, but the 1st engine I recognized by sight was a SD45 in the Worms in Love logo!! Former Pennsy at that!! Made the day of a little fourth grader and was hooked every since. Besides, PC is to Conrail what AMF is to the history of Harley Davidson: The necessary rough bridge to a better future! AND LETS LEAVE THE LID ON THAT 55 GALLON DRUM (or we will have hoggers writting about Hogs)!! THE DEAD HORSE IS A NOW A GLUE PILE. SSGT York Whaderya expect from a Jarhead Staff NCO!! _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "tqpj6" Subject: [PRR] mail malf Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 12:26:06 -0500 Content-Length: 538 Had a mail malfunction this morning and lost the last two days of PRR-TALK. Could anybody out their relay this to me? Also, any one sending directly would you pls resend. MAC ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 10:28:21 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: [PRR] Dead Horses. Content-Length: 1827 Hi All, Reading all the pros and cons of this thread it is evident that to rivet-count or not is less the question than to be rude or not. Modeling PRR in N-Scale I had to make my peace with compromise long ago. However, at a point in time this was no longer satisfactory. I then adopted the goal of more accuracy. I joined this list because I wanted more accuracy in my fleet/modeling and this was the place to start. I've got to say that people like Bruce S., Mark B., Richard O. and many others will be welcome to come to my future layout and rivet-count to their heart's content; it will only make my modeling better. Non RC's will be welcome also, they see different things than the RC's, their input is often just as useful, and I hope they will enjoy their visit. One funny thing that I've noticed: I may be unusual but as my PRR knowledge grows I'm less inclined to critique others efforts because I've come to realize how little I really know and the exceptions to every rule seems to jump out of the closet every time I open my mouth. It's possible to write reams on this topic but, for me, Bruce and Mark have summed up a lot of the concerns I have THESE DAYS. View rivet counters as a resource and if you don't like their attitude walk away. On our current, non-PRR, HO layout there are only two types of visitors: those you get invited back and those who don't. It's all in their attitude. For what it's worth, Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:39:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/07/98 Content-Length: 952 > Missed the initial entry on this topic, but would like to point out, if > no one else has, that Gary Salzgaber (hope I got the last name spelled > right) is a Columbus, OH model railroader with a PRR-based layout that > features operating scale position lights ... there is a video on this > layout, done by a small-scale production company. Some of you Lines > West folks might know (or know of) his layout. If anyone has a reference to this video I'd love to buy a copy... > Vagel Keller > Carnegie Mellon University Stop by and say hello sometime (CyH 111) -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] mail malf Date: Wed, 8 Jul 98 14:55:50 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1075 On 7/8/98 1:26 PM, tqpj6 (tqpj6@pty.com) wrote: >Had a mail malfunction this morning and lost the last two days of PRR-TALK. > Could anybody out their relay this to me? Also, any one sending directly >would you pls resend. Hey, folks, don't forget that there is an online archive of all of my lists, including "PRR-Talk". Go to http://kc.pennsyrr.com/databases.html Archives are entered on a 24-hour delay. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:56:45 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Lost PRR loco classes? Content-Length: 1731 Hi all, Have you ever wondered... If the P5 was the 4-6-4 (electric), what happened to the P1, P2, P3 and P4? If the L1 was the steam Mikado, and the L5 and L6 were electric mikes, whatever happened to the L2, L3, and L4? Ponderingly, Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great literary works in Braille. ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 17:17:04 -0400 From: bobsin@nac.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Signals Content-Length: 879 Everybody loves signals. I know there have been posts about the various commercial position light signals available; but am I wrong in the assumption that for any reasonably sized RR with interlockings etc we are starting to talk big bucks just for the signal units alone? In the meantime I am struggling with my home-brew DCC system and my fifty or so Bruce Chubb "optimized detectors" that seem to be incompatible with DCC. Ya gotta have track circuits before youse can have automatic signals! John Bobsin ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 19:08:22 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Signals Content-Length: 741 Hi, John... Gee, I thought that with DCC track circuits would be easier....with constant full voltage applied to the track then any current flow would indicate "occupied". Even a lighted car should cause enough diode drop to indicate the track circuit condition; I got away with 1 K ohm resistors on freight car axles / wheels. Please write and explain...thanks, Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RLA0220@webtv.net (RICHARD ADER) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 19:59:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Ore Jennies Content-Length: 836 I'm afraid to ask, however I always was one gluttin for punishment so here goes. What color are/were the PRR ore jennies when new? When I worked on Penn Central they were an orangey red that I blamed on the accumulation of ore dust and road grime. I didnt pay much attention at the time because I thought they would always be there, and alas they are gone. The last ones I saw was on a siding near Pittsburgh when I was at the Convention a couple years ago. Rich ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 20:14:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Vagel Charles Keller Subject: [PRR] PRR Layout w/ Operating Signals Content-Length: 844 In RE: Derrick's question about sources for the video on Gary Salzgaber's PRR Middle Division HO layout w/ working position lights, et al: Clear Block Productions Box 527 Marion, OH 43301-0527 PH: 614-389-6091 This was valid in 1992 ... don't know if still is. Title of video is: "Gary Salzgaber's HO Scale Middle Division of the Pennsylvania Railroad." Note that it is not a geographically correct track plan, but "captures the feel" quite well. Regards, Vagel ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 20:43:14 EDT Subject: [PRR] Tampa Station Restored Content-Length: 872 Tampa Station has been beautifully restored. As you all know this was one of the destinations for the Pennsy Florida Trains in conjunction with the ACL and the SAL. Now if they would restore the covered passenger platforms. I was there today and just had time for a quick walk-thru. Next trip I will photograph and make scans available. The ticket agents even wore uniforms! Guess what they are using the building for? here's a novel idea! "A train station" (Amtrak) Harold Modeling the Middle Division ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 21:13:36 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Signals Content-Length: 917 bobsin@nac.net wrote: > > Everybody loves signals....In the meantime I am struggling with > my home-brew DCC system and my fifty or so Bruce Chubb "optimized > detectors" that seem to be incompatible with DCC. > > John, Don't give up hope. Ignoring the fact, for a minute, of 50 detectors in hand, Bruce has reportedly come up with a new design for a DCC-compatible detector. Also, I am told he is near the completion of a large update book on new aspects of C/MRI use and application, all relating to model railroading. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 22:35:09 -0500 From: Andy Cich Subject: [PRR] Head End Interior Colors Content-Length: 1001 Hello everyone: I'm working on a building a Bethlehem Car Works M-70 RPO, and am trying to decide what colors are appropriate for the interior. I have the PRR Passenger Car Painting and Lettering book published by the PRRT&HS, which has some painting diagrams. One of them mentions aluminum walls and a red floor for baggage interiors. Would this also be appropriate for mail cars? If not, what are the appropriate colors for mail car interiors? A portion of the drawing that is lined out mentions "light buff enamel" for the baggage walls. What is "light buff enamel"? Any help is appreciated. Andy C. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 01:21:10 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Signals and modeling Clinic for Conv. Content-Length: 1819 Regarding the proposed Signal clinic for Altoona, August 1999: I am in frequent contact with over a dozen people that have studied, worked on and really understand the PRR Signal System. ' Enthusiasts ' are fine; but I believe this type of clinic would call for solid knowledge and ' hands-on ' experience. This 'signal group' includes people that: worked for the PRR, are PRRT&HS Members, design signal circuits, have worked on signal wiring, have collected and studied every PRR interlocking diagram, have worked in PRR Towers, and several who have accurately built working PRR signal systems for their model railroads. These are very knowledgable folks, who are willing to share their information readily. I could envision a working display with open and actual wiring examples. At a minimum, participants would gain information on the prototype system. For modelers, that knowledge could also be translated into realistic and accurate working model systems. Our only 'missing piece' is a modeler who could discuss the merits / defects of the various model track circuit / detection systems that are available. My 'PRR Signal Course' articles will be published in the Keystone and / or the Clear Block ( from the Signal SIG of the NMRA) before then. If so, that would provide a good basic 'platform' to begin from. Suggestions for content / depth / etc. of the clinic are welcome. Bill Strassner, PRRSignals@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 04:20:58 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Fwd: [PRR] Lost PRR loco classes? Content-Length: 2128 ---"Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." wrote: > If the P5 was the 4-6-4 (electric), what happened to the P1, P2, P3 and P4? > > If the L1 was the steam Mikado, and the L5 and L6 were electric mikes, > whatever happened to the L2, L3, and L4? I too have pondered the question. I suspect that someone at Altoona was thinking: "Hmmm. Here were are, designing a 2-8-2 electric locomotive. That means it will be class L-something. We have an L1 steam locomotive, so I suppose we could maje it L2. Hmmm. The suppose we desin a new 2-8-2 steam locomotive. Then we would have L1 - steam, L2 - electric, L3 steam. No, too confusing. Let us jump up the line a ways and leave room for a few new steam 2-8-2 classes. L5 it shall be." Similarly, the 4-6-4 electric became P5, to allow for a few 4-6-4 steam types. Why then was the O1 not O5? Perhaps the mechanical engineers were certain they would never design a 4-4-4 steam locomotive. Perhaps the mechanical engineers would have been better off had they not designed the 4-4-4 electric. I claim the foregoing is consistent with prior practice. ALCo built a few samples which I believe were classes J27, J28, K27, and K28 (or some such). That is, they were assigned numbers such that further development of standard types would not cause the odd-balls to disappear into the main sequence. Along similar lines, why was the H21 hopper not H1? Could it be that someone was allowing for all those G-this and G-that gondolas-with-hoppers to be reclassified into new H-something classes? Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 04:49:52 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] e-Bay Watch Content-Length: 571 Item 20509964 CT1000E of 1945 Currently going for $9.75 Bob Netzlof _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 07:16:16 -0500 Subject: [PRR] [rrdiana] PRR Locomotive numbers Content-Length: 1062 ---------------------- Forwarded by Randy Williamson/Marathon on 07/09/98 07:12 AM --------------------------- Harry Bilger on 07/08/98 09:37:04 PM Please respond to hbilger2@airmail.net To: rrdiana@railnet.nshore.org cc: (bcc: Randy Williamson/Marathon) Subject: [rrdiana] PRR Locomotive numbers Attention Pennsy fans. Can anyone help with this request, please. A colleague has two round locomotive number plates which he believes to be from Pennsylvania locomotives. They are numbers 8264 and 8314. If any of you out there can tell me what kind of locomotives these might be from, I would appreciate it. Thanks, Harry Bilger ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Lost PRR loco classes? Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 08:29:28 -0400 Content-Length: 2431 Wasn't the USRA design 2-8-2 designated L-2 on the Pennsy? Jerry Breon -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, July 08, 1998 5:17 PM Subject: [PRR] Lost PRR loco classes? >Hi all, > >Have you ever wondered... > >If the P5 was the 4-6-4 (electric), what happened to the P1, P2, P3 and P4? > >If the L1 was the steam Mikado, and the L5 and L6 were electric mikes, >whatever happened to the L2, L3, and L4? > >Ponderingly, >Bruce > >Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. >Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and >Director, Nucleic Acid Services >Scott-Ritchey Research Center >334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ >*************************************************************************** ***** >If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup >trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number >of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great >literary works in Braille. >*************************************************************************** ***** >Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com > _ _ > / \ / \ > ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ > |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:43:30 EDT Subject: [PRR] T1 decoder (was MOW Baggage car) Content-Length: 4388 Brian Brandt asked the following. I am posting my answer to the list in the event someone else may have suggested improvements to my approach. <> If it was just the decoder it would be one thing. The Dallee sound system is so big even the T1 tender gets cramped. Right now I plan to mount the sound system at the rear floor of the tender, drill a hole and mill it out at the front floor for the speaker (some have suggested mounting speaker in loco) and have the DH105 Wangrow decoder at the front top or front wall of the tender(still trying to figure out how to mount this (or hang in air with lots of insulation around it?) I will run 5 wires back from the locomotive (two motor leads, one RH rail pickup, and two lighting leads). I decided it was too messy to individually control the fog light so I will wire in series with the headlight. I assume The Bowser headlight bulb is a 12 volt bulb which would have a short life in the DCC system so I will run it a little dimmer by wiring the two bulbs in series. Biggest problem in DCC is keeping thngs insulated from each other. I use either electrical tape or .005 styrene between frame and motor mount, use nylon 2-56 screws and Kadee fiber washers plus special nylon 4-10 flathead screws (available on the internet, but I found some at a good hardware store near me) for the back motor mount. I then wired the second motor lead to the two motor brush holders on the right hand side (be careful not to overheat--I delaminated one brush and had to superglue it back, carefuly keeping electrical contact). I looked for flathead 2-56 nylon screws to mount the boiler, but to no avail. I then chose to replace the metal screw and cylindrical spacer holding the boiler mounting bracket on top of the motor with another nylon 2-56 round head screw plus two nylon 2-56 nuts. The 2-56 screw must be trimmed to length so it doesn't lock the armature (I found out the hard way!) You could keep the boiler "hot" but I just don't like that. I then wrapped as much of the nonvisible part of the trailing truck, plus the brass sleeve around its mounting screw in more electrical tape. The Bowser trailing trucks are notorious for shorting to everything in sight. I replace the metal drawbar with the Bowser fiber drawbar (part available from them or you could make one from thick styrene). The T1 has another threaded hole just under the rear edge of the cab which makes the tender spacing the same for the fiber drawbar as the metal drawbar mounted at the forward mounting hole. I will probably hardwire the five wires from the locomotive back to the tender to an NMRA standard socket. Most modelers locally have found miniconnectors between loco and tender to have a short life (two or three connect- disconnects). I did use a miniconnector to connect the lights taped to the boiler in my M1, but I still try not to disconnect when I remove the boiler anyway. I tape the 5 wires to the underside of the fiber drawbar to keep things reasonably neat. The left hand rail connection is wire I solder to the brass sheet wheel retainer on the tender trucks. I haven't decided yet where to connect to the loco frame to get the RH rail power. Haven't debugged yet. Need to pick up some appropriate size MV lenses for the headlights and foglights to do the lights first. Any suggestions for improvements to the above would be appreciated. Of course I will be back to the drawing board when we convince Alco Products to produce a Helix Humper drop-in can motor for the T1:-) ! Also when I decide to use the optical synch switch on the sound system. That reminds me that even if I didn't need the functions for the sound system, I would use a 1.5 amp decoder for the twin power hog motors in the Bowser. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: [PRR] PRR Signals and modeling Clinic for Conv. (fwd) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 12:21:43 EDT Content-Length: 4204 Bill Strassner writes, in part: > At a minimum, participants would gain information on the prototype system. For > modelers, that knowledge could also be translated into realistic and accurate > working model systems. Agreed. This would be step 1. Included would have to be 'typical' aspect sequences. I don't think every eventuality could be covered, and I would expect some models to implement only a 'basic' system. Even models implementing a 'full' system would likely have small errors in terms of things like incorrect signal spacing on downgrades; incorrect implementation of signal aspect sequences that vary from the 'norm'; etc. I'm not sure - I don't think - that all of these are 'fixable' or 'preventable'. (I'm trying not to use judgmental terminology...) > These are very knowledgable folks, who are willing to share their information > readily. I could envision a working display with open and actual wiring > examples. This may be overkill. Some commercial system should be implemented; or else, some addition to some commercial system, to provide the additional aspects for a 'full' system. I think that, in this day and age, if we expect someone to go out and hand-wire relays or hand-wire TTL logic gates (as I have considerable experience in doing), no one will implement anything except 'scenic' (nonworking) signals. (I am excepting those people (I have one person in particular in mind) who _intentionally_ wire one or more interlockings with relays, copying the PRR not only in trackwork and trains, but also duplicating, in miniature, the PRR's signalling practices. This is _highly_ impressive and laudable, but simply not the interest of the average modeller.) > Our only 'missing piece' is a modeler who could discuss the merits / defects > of the various model track circuit / detection systems that are available. I do not have present and current experience in this area, not having owned a basement ..er.. house until recently. But I am willing to gain this experience and to do this portion of the presentation. I would like to request some help from others, however. I would like to hear from both modellers: a) what stuff have they bought? Vendor names. b) experience with available circuits, compatibility problems, wiring ease and from prototype guys: c) signal plans, etc., for comparison with the models. Finally, I've indicated that I would like for my own purposes to design a computer program to implement this sort of stuff. I would need some help from the electronics experts (I'm an advanced novice at electronics) among us and would be willing to work with other people who know how to program. At this point, Visual C++ is probably the way to go, make it Windoze-based, run it on your spare 486... (Scary. Real scary. When 486 came out, it was being touted in _Byte_ and elsewhere as "mainframe power on your desktop". And now they are "spares".) I would envision the program to be FREEWARE, donated to the PRRT&HS solely for licensing, but free to the public, and containing interfaces to those detectors, etc., that are commercially available or home buildable a la Chubb. I would like to make the thing as inexpensive as possible, too, since the hardware -- good model hardware -- is not cheap. > My 'PRR Signal Course' articles will be published in the Keystone and / or the > Clear Block ( from the Signal SIG of the NMRA) before then. If so, that would > provide a good basic 'platform' to begin from. > > Suggestions for content / depth / etc. of the clinic are welcome. Ah! I think I've provided some. :-) > Bill Strassner, PRRSignals@aol.com Bill, I'm willing to work with you on this, but my emails to you keep bouncing back. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: [PRR] close coupling Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 16:48:10 -0400 Content-Length: 779 Hi gang, Doesn't seem to be much chatter on the list today so I'll throw this modeling question out to it: Has anyone worked out a good method of moving the couplers on Proto 2000 E units (and probably the PA's need it too) to allow the units to be coupled closer together? It appears to me that they could stand to be at least 3/16" closer to each other. Lets hear from someone. Thanks. Jerry Breon ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cschlund@sfsu.edu Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 19:44:09 Subject: Re: [PRR] SpeedWitch (was:Named PRR Freight Trains) Content-Length: 2242 Well, the question of how the Speed Witch crossed NY Harbor has been answered at this point. I'll only contribute that before the Hell Gate Bridge, jointly-run NYNH&H/PRR passenger trains were also ferried across NY harbor by carfloat, providing service from PRR NE Corridor cities to Boston. This service goes back at least to the 1890's. In at least one case, a passenger car was lost (fell off the car float and into the ocean!) on one of these passages. No, I don't know if the car was occupied at the time. - Claus Claus Schlund (Shop Foreman, Bernal Heights Car & Foundry) Modeling steam-era PRR in N scale San Francisco, CA Interested in BHC&F products? Check out our no-longer-one-and-only N scale passenger car kit at http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~cschlund/models/pullman.gif > Andrew Pavlucik, in his book _The New Haven Railroad a Fond Look Back_, has a > chapter on "The Speed Witch," describing it as NE-1, a NHRR/PRR train from > Boston to Baltimore. The train carried cars from all over eastern > Massachusetts, and set out at Newark, Trenton, Philadelphia, and Baltimore, > with, at times, additional setouts for New Brunswick, Camdenm, and Wilmington. > ======== > > How were the cars moved from the NH to the PRR? Did the SpeedWitch go thru > Penn Station? Could a perishable train with the word "speed" in its name be > carfloated across the Hudson? Did it take the Poughkipsie Bridge? If so > weren't other RRs involved to get the cars south to the PRR (LV, LHR, DL&W, > Erie, NYS&W)? -------------------------***{}***------------------------- Claus Schlund (Shop Foreman, Bernal Heights Car & Foundry) Modeling steam-era PRR in N scale - San Francisco, CA Interested in BHC&F products? Check out our no-longer-one-and-only N scale passenger car kit at http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~cschlund/models/pullman.gif ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:39:57 -0400 (EDT) From: bobr@tridelta.com (Bob Rothrock) Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore Jennies Content-Length: 992 At 07:59 PM 7/8/98, RICHARD ADER wrote: >I'm afraid to ask, however I always was one gluttin for punishment so >here goes. What >color are/were the PRR ore jennies when new? Rich: The first ones I saw in the Cleveland area (circa '65 and later) were black, which was they color they wore when I worked at PC's Collinwood yard '73-'76. There were times late in the shipping season (on the Great Lakes) when the car sides would be almost completely obscured by the application of a sprayed-on foam to inhibit freezing of the load, and the foam was a reddish-brown color, probably from ore dust. Bob Rothrock ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:51:47 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Lost PRR loco classes? Content-Length: 1002 YES - I'm one of the weird ones who did wonder - APPARENTLY - PRR reserved the first 5 numbers for steam locomotives Which they did in classes L (2-8-2) and P (4-6-4) - But not in Class O (4-4-4) So Pennsy anticipated that it MIGHT have a Steam powered "Baltic" type (aka Hudson) In other words a "Hudson" on the PRR would have been a P1s - any guesses as to what crews might have called them ? Type B-1 Electric switchers were originally semi permantly coupled and were classes BB-1 - when they were seperated all class B-1 steamers (if there were any) had been retired and they were classed B-1 Dick Ross Cleveland ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:28:56 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [prr] Beating a dead horse (but of a different color) Content-Length: 660 Does anyone know when the Purple Emperor went into service under that name? In particular, was it before or after 1894? Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:46:13 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Lost PRR loco classes? Content-Length: 539 In a message dated 98-07-09 08:36:24 EDT, Jerry Breon writes: << Wasn't the USRA design 2-8-2 designated L-2 on the Pennsy? >> Or I guess, to be specific, L-2s. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:58:26 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Head End Interior Colors Content-Length: 2688 Andy, > I'm working on a building a Bethlehem Car Works M-70 RPO, >and am trying to decide what colors are appropriate for the interior. I >have the PRR Passenger Car Painting and Lettering book published by the >PRRT&HS, which has some painting diagrams. One of them mentions >aluminum walls and a red floor for baggage interiors. Would this also >be appropriate for mail cars? If not, what are the appropriate colors >for mail car interiors? A portion of the drawing that is lined out >mentions "light buff enamel" for the baggage walls. What is "light buff >enamel"? I hate doing this off of the top of my head, but...I had found a reference which referred to the insides of mail and baggage cars as grey walls with (grey) linoleum floors (I can't remember where!). I too was interested as I was painting my Bethlehem M70B. I settled on Floquil primer as an excellent color. BTW, the interior diagrams for these cars are available, and I was thinking of fabricating a drop in insaert for mine when I have the time . As for the "light Buff" - I found that Poly Scale Depot Buff was a close match and have used that on the inside of my P70. Happy rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great literary works in Braille. ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 08:50:43 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] NEW PRR loco model! Content-Length: 2267 Hi all, Did y'all happen to notice the advertisement titled "Lets Pretend" on Page 67 of the July NMRA Bulletin? A company called ALPS (Advanced Light, Power and Sound) is selling the AMD 103 ("genisis") locomotives in "what if..." schemes including the "Broadway Limited (P.R.R.). From the photograph (the loco is in the back) it appears to be a Tuscan 5 stripe scheme. The price is $99.98 + $7.98 S&H. This is obviously a repaint of the Athearn model. Other schemes available include NYC (BOOOO), AT&SF, SP, UP and GN! As the add says "What a great conversation piece!" Disclaimer 1: This IS NOT a restart of the PRR 2000 thread Disclaimer 2: This IS NOT meant to restart or in any way continue the recent thread on sticking to PRR prototypes. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great literary works in Braille. ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 18:25:15 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] [rrdiana] PRR Locomotive numbers Content-Length: 896 Greetings to the list: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com wrote: > > > colleague has two round locomotive number plates which he believes to be from Pennsylvania locomotives. They are numbers 8264 and 8314. > If any of you out there can tell me what kind of locomotives these might be from, 8264 = a Lima L1s, blt 11/1917 as 7242, renumbered 11/1918 8314 = a Lima L1s, blt 11/1917 as 7646, renumbered 8/1919 (Only 25 Lima-built L1s existed) Both scrapped 1950. Dan Dan Copper cupper@ibm.net John 14:21 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Product News - IHC Date: Thu, 9 Jul 98 18:36:11 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1866 The "Railroad Telegraph" reports the following on new products: IHC: We have found a letter on the rec.models.railroads new group on the Internet that details the passenger cars. The letter is credited to David Alteneder in the IHC Research and Development group. All cars will be modeled after Pullman Standard prototypes. The PS plan numbers are listed below. IHC has chosen to use the same window arrangements for both the smooth side and corrugated cars. This means that half of the cars will probably NOT have a prototype. The cars will be: Baggage, Plan 7463 - Baggage/Mail/Storage - Southern; Coach, Plan 7457 - 52 seat coach - Southern/PRR; Diner, Plan 7458 - 48 Seat Diner - Southern; Observation, Plan 4115 - 4 Drawing Room, 1 Bedroom, Observation Lounge - Santa Fe; Combine, Plan 7455 - Baggage/Dormatory/22 Seat Coach - Southern; RPO, Plan 7462, Baggage/60' Postal Compartment - Southern; Duplex Sleeper, Plan 4100B - 24 Duplex Bedroom Sleeper - Santa Fe; Vista Dome, Plan 7616, Dome/Bar/Lounge - Santa Fe. C&O, PRR (in five different schemes), GN, ATSF, MP, LV, NJT, ACL, Seaboard, Southern, NP, SP, BN and others. IHC claims that delivery will be October of this year. You didn't REALLY expect accurate cars from IHC, did you? ;-) ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 18:42:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore Jennies Content-Length: 672 Richard Ader wrote:: << RICHARD ADER wrote: >I'm afraid to ask, however I always was one gluttin for punishment so >here goes. What >color are/were the PRR ore jennies when new? >> My understanding (probably from the Keystone) is that the Pennsy ore jennies were painted black when new. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 16:07:32 -0700 From: Roger Elliott Subject: [PRR] N-scale traction tires on locos Content-Length: 711 Hi There, Is there anyone out there who might know where I could get some driver wheels set up for traction tires? I have tried just sticking Virnex traction tires on the loco, but they're so thick they almost lift the other wheels off the track. If a groove could be put in two drivers, this might solve the situation. Thanks, Roger Elliott ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 19:02:52 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Lost PRR loco classes? From: padraice@juno.com (Patrick M Egan) Content-Length: 2854 Don't forget the five USRA light 2-8-2's in class L2 used in southern Indiana. What about the never built K1? It was supposed to look like a long E3, but has anyone ever seen a drawing? Then there was someone's idea for a super Atlantic (E8?) mentioned I believe, in Apex of the Atlantics. Did anyone ever make up drawings or specs? Pat Egan On Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:56:45 -0500 "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." writes: >Hi all, > >Have you ever wondered... > >If the P5 was the 4-6-4 (electric), what happened to the P1, P2, P3 >and P4? > >If the L1 was the steam Mikado, and the L5 and L6 were electric mikes, >whatever happened to the L2, L3, and L4? > >Ponderingly, >Bruce > >Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. >Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and >Director, Nucleic Acid Services >Scott-Ritchey Research Center >334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ >******************************************************************************** >If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of >pickup >trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number >of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great >literary works in Braille. >******************************************************************************** >Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! >http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com > _ _ > / \ / \ > ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ > |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 20:10:20 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore Jennies Content-Length: 719 If the cars you refer to are the Pennsylvania G-38 and G-39 ore "Jennies" then black it is the color. Some G-39s had an insulating foam srpayed on to help prevent the load from freezing. As far as I know this was an experiment. Not all G-39s got the treatment and I believe it was latter discontinued. Ed Martin "a graduate of the Joe Jack school of driving" ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "D. Gabe Gabriel" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Signals and modeling Clinic for Conv. (fwd) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 19:04:25 -0400 Content-Length: 1879 Subject: [PRR] PRR Signals and modeling Clinic for Conv. (fwd) >Finally, I've indicated that I would like for my own purposes to design >a computer program to implement this sort of stuff. I would need some >help from the electronics experts (I'm an advanced novice at electronics) >among us and would be willing to work with other people who know how to >program. At this point, Visual C++ is probably the way to go, make it >Windoze-based, run it on your spare 486... (Scary. Real scary. When >486 came out, it was being touted in _Byte_ and elsewhere as "mainframe >power on your desktop". And now they are "spares".) > >I would envision the program to be FREEWARE, donated to the PRRT&HS >solely for licensing, but free to the public, and containing interfaces >to those detectors, etc., that are commercially available or home >buildable a la Chubb. I would like to make the thing as inexpensive >as possible, too, since the hardware -- good model hardware -- is not >cheap. Just my 2 cents.... The "conventional" microprocessor logic used today could be easily modeled using MS QuickBasic and a 386, using IEEE A/D boards - a low cost investment, easy to dedicate the money for even the average modeller - It is impossible to make a "generic" software system for a railroad (no one has one yet on a working RR), so MSQB is much simpler to model signal logic... but, as for the trackside components, I know nothing of them and would like to learn more from this too... Gabe ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:02:58 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Dead Horses. From: staffsgtyork@juno.com (David W. York) Content-Length: 930 Hear Hear!!!! "Reading all the pros and cons of this thread it is evident that to rivet-count or not is less the question than to be rude or not." "On our current, non-PRR, HO layout there are only two types of visitors: those you get invited back and those who don't. It's all in their attitude." Amen! SSGT York _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 21:52:03 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Double headers Content-Length: 960 Hello Folks... As some of you know i am modeling the PRR's Northern Central from Baltimore to York Pa. I know that K-4s engines were double headed there and that class E-6s engines were used for local trains there too. I know E-6s engines were double headed in other places. What i'm trying to find out was if class E-6s engines were ever double headed there or double headed with K-4s class engines. Thanks to any who can help... Til Later H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 00:08:10 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: [PRR] Highliners F molds to Athearn Content-Length: 855 The buzz on rec.models.railroad dealt with a press release from Athearn saying that they have bought the long-awaited, recently-completed F-unit molds from Highliner, and will release them in their Genesis line, beginning in the Holiday season. Highliners will sell the undecorated shells. Intermountain has announced that they will also be introducing F-unit shells. How 'bout a nice price war so I can get some Pennsy F-3's on the cheap? -- Jerry Shickler e-mail: geshick@velocity.net ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:09:20 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Buff enamel From: staffsgtyork@juno.com (David W. York) Content-Length: 977 Andy C. says " A portion of the drawing that is lined out mentions "light buff enamel" for the baggage walls. What is "light buff enamel"?" Usually buff is approximately the shade of a manilla envelope, give or take a shade. This info comes from my knowledge of ocean bound steamers--the Pennsy may have had a "standardized" shade. Any other input? SSGT York _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 01:15:52 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Head End Interior Colors Content-Length: 626 For what is worth, the RPO at Altoona museum was painted what I would call school house, or light, green on the interior. Have no ideas when or by whom. I will dig out the video I took a few years ago of the interior and see what floor and trim were. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Signals and modeling Clinic for Conv. (fwd) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 2:28:04 EDT Content-Length: 1257 > Just my 2 cents.... The "conventional" microprocessor logic used today > could be easily modeled using MS QuickBasic and a 386, using IEEE > A/D boards - a low cost investment, That much of it, yes. The investment of time to wire from the A/D board(s) to the layout may be prohibitive, though ... > easy to dedicate the money for > even the average modeller - > It is impossible to make a "generic" > software system for a railroad (no one has one yet on a working RR), True. But should not a reasonable approximation for many or most locations/ situations be achievable? I hope you're not proposing that the modeller wishing to implement signals should replicate the signalling logic of each modelled location, are you? The latter would imply the availability and access to original plans for all locations - and what would one do with freelance locations? -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 07:16:51 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Signals and modeling Clinic for Conv. Content-Length: 2308 D. Gabe Gabriel wrote: > > Just my 2 cents.... The "conventional" microprocessor logic used today > could be easily modeled using MS QuickBasic and a 386, using IEEE > A/D boards - a low cost investment, easy to dedicate the money for > even the average modeller - It is impossible to make a "generic" > software system for a railroad (no one has one yet on a working RR), > so MSQB is much simpler to model signal logic... > I am running Chubb's C/MRI system on an IBM PC, 4 MHz, _with a math coprocessor_. It runs faster than on an 8 MHz 286 without the coprocessor. The program loops about 2 times per second, not fast, but quick enough for my railroad. Writing to the screen is the biggest cause of slowdown. Bypassing the screen write when it is not needed keeps the speed at its max, whatever that happens to be. Since the PRR did not have CRT displays on their CTC systems, they would be an anachronism anyway. I have no wayside signals at this point - just cab signals, but the logic is in the software for the wayside signals. At present my system is controlling power blocking in addition to the cab signals. I am in O scale with a number of old, high-current locomotives and don't fancy installing decoders in all of them. I will admit I envy anyone who can have functional Restricting and permissive signals. I am using MS Quickbasic; it is simple (!) and effective, easy to learn. You are right, there is no standard package. However, Chubb's system, while not cheap, is a cookbook procedure, both hard- and software, that is extremely well documented. This makes it ideal for anyone who wants realistic signalling and is not an electronics engineer. Further, he is still in active development, in the final stages of publishing a 300+ page update on model railroad applications. Gabe, please tell us more about the IEEE A/D boards you mentioned. Thank you, Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] LANE Interlocking Date: Fri, 10 Jul 98 08:19:38 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1131 At LANE interlocking, in New Jersey, track 1 rises up and allows turnouts from tracks 2, 3, and 4 to turnout and duckunder it to enter Waverly Yard, labaled as the "Passaic & Harsimus Branch" on the interlocking map on Keystone Crossings. On the opposite site of the four track main, there are turnouts from the main, but they are not labeled. Are these sidings, or does the "Passaic & Harsimus Branch" cross over the mains, or is this another branch? Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] close coupling From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 98 08:26:23 -0400 Content-Length: 1253 Jerry Breon asked: Has anyone worked out a good method of moving the couplers on Proto 2000 E units (and probably the PA's need it too) to allow the units to be coupled closer together? It appears to me that they could stand to be at least 3/16" closer to each other. Lets hear from someone. Thanks. =========== On the rear of the units I use the shortest shank KD available, I forget the number. on the nose I turn the glad hand backward, so that it is concealed behind the pilot. I works over ramps just as well that way. This lets me again use a very short shank so that the coupler does not extend way out in front like some Civil War loco. I also have to cut a small notch in the bottom of the pilot to accommodate the glad hand of the mating car. The PRR did this also, but for a different reason - they had to clear dragging equipment detectors. regards, Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 8:14:01 -0500 From: "Laird, Bill (GWise)" Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore Jennies -Reply Content-Length: 1185 Date: 07/10/1998 02:12 pm (Friday) From: Bill Laird To: INET.MAIL("PRR-Talk@dsop.com") Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore Jennies -Reply There are some good pictures of the ore jennies with the sprayed-on foam in the two Morningside books, PRR Color Equipment Guide, volumes 1 and 2. Bill Laird Houston, Texas >>> PRR-Talk@dsop.com 07/09/98 08:39am >>> >>Rich: >> The first ones I saw in the Cleveland area (circa '65 and later) were black, which was they color they wore when I worked at PC's Collinwood yard '73-'76. There were times late in the shipping season (on the Great Lakes) when the car sides would be almost completely obscured by the application of a sprayed-on foam to inhibit freezing of the load, and the foam was a reddish-brown color, probably from ore dust.<< Bob Rothrock<< ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg Loco Facility - Questions & Photo Request Date: Fri, 10 Jul 98 09:17:56 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 2069 Looking for photos and other info related to the Harrisburg locomotive facilities (steam & diesel) that were built 1937 and after. Note that I have the Rails Northeast issue from 1976 which has an article on the "new" deisel shop. I also have the Pennsy Journal issue that has the article on the "new" steam shop. Am interested in all other photos of the roundhouse, machine shop, coal tower, ash pit, wash pit, inspection pit, and literally all other outbuildings. QUESTIONS: Near the coal tower there was an "ice house" between the coal supply track and the loco tracks. What was its purpose? It obviously was not in a position to ice reefers. There was a stub track near the roundhouse/machine shop that is labeled "depressed" and indicates a "wood crib". Would this likely be for loading scrap into gondolas? The Pennsy Journal map shows the water towers. Anyone know where the locos actually received water? The Pennsy Journal reports the Harrisburg turntable -- at 125' -- to be the largest on the system. Was this true? COMMENTS: There were numerous 50,000 gallon water towers...two by the roundhouse, two by the coal tower. The Walthers kit appears to be a very close match. Any comments? I visited the roundhouse (and was actually given permission to walk the entire steam/diesel facilty) in the 1980s. Only took a few photos. Had I only known! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Product News - IHC From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 98 09:48:59 -0400 Content-Length: 953 Jerry said (in part): You didn't REALLY expect accurate cars from IHC, did you? ;-) ======== At least IHC will letter the cars for the Southern and the ATSF - the roads which had them. Unlike Bachmann and their Pullman which was lettered only for road which never ran any of that car! I for one am thrilled at the though of the Southern (and PRR pool) cars. Now, along with USP's accurate sides for a PS 10-6 and 14-4 and the Crescent Ltd midtrain lounge, I can start assembling some Southern RR connections to run on the rear on my corridor trains. regards, Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:58:18 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] T1 decoder Content-Length: 5164 Bob, First, thanks for the detailed description of what you are doing! >If it was just the decoder it would be one thing. The Dallee sound system is >so big even the T1 tender gets cramped. yes, I agree...which is why I'm pressing ThrottleUp! for a Sountraxx decoder with the T-1 whistle. One problem is that such an item is unliklely due to the lack of digital recordings of that specific whistle. The Dallee sound system, while pretty nice, has several flaws including size, only single sounds allowed, and it is not easy to calibrate chuff to driver spin. That said, I too will probalby resort to Dallee. >Right now I plan to mount the sound system at the rear floor of the tender, >drill a hole and mill it out at the front floor for the speaker (some have >suggested mounting speaker in loco) and have the DH105 Wangrow decoder at the >front top or front wall of the tender(still trying to figure out how to mount >this (or hang in air with lots of insulation around it?) I suggest a PFM edge ported speaker, mounted on the floor of the tender. Basically, this looks like a speaker box pointed at the floor but all the sound comes out the edge - Tony Koester of the AM put me onto these great speakers. I would also consider mounting a speaker under the stack in the shell. >Biggest problem in DCC is keeping thngs insulated from each other. Amen, brother - I've burned a few $$$ by forgetting that adage! >I replace the metal drawbar with the Bowser fiber drawbar (part available from >them or you could make one from thick styrene). The T1 has another threaded >hole just under the rear edge of the cab which makes the tender spacing the >same for the fiber drawbar as the metal drawbar mounted at the forward >mounting hole. I made a styrene drawbar. The Copper drawbar is simply asking for trouble, even on the non-DCC model! >I will probably hardwire the five wires from the locomotive back to the tender >to an NMRA standard socket. Most modelers locally have found miniconnectors >between loco and tender to have a short life (two or three connect- >disconnects). I did use a miniconnector to connect the lights taped to the >boiler in my M1, but I still try not to disconnect when I remove the boiler >anyway. I've toyed with the idea that these wires could be hidden in something that looked like the stoker. The simplest solution for me will be to put all 5 into black shrink tube for the passage between loco and tender. >The left hand rail connection is wire I solder to the brass sheet wheel >retainer on the tender trucks. I haven't decided yet where to connect to the >loco frame to get the RH rail power. frankly, anywhere on the tender will do for LH pickup - the whole darn thing is HOT! and likewise, anywhere on the the frame(s) will do for RH pickup. >Of course I will be back to the drawing board when we convince Alco Products >to produce a Helix Humper drop-in can motor for the T1:-) ! Also when I decide >to use the optical synch switch on the sound system. >That reminds me that even if I didn't need the functions for the sound system, >I would use a 1.5 amp decoder for the twin power hog motors in the Bowser. Joe Zappa of Liberty Models has my single frame for the T-1 for use with Bowser components. My single frame NWSL repower job is about 3/4 done sitting on my workbench. This will of course restrict you to 28" or above radii, but will significantly reduce some of the shorting problems with the boiler and frames. An additional benefit will be extra space in the boiler where those big honking bowser motors used to go! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great literary works in Braille. ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:47:21 -0400 From: bobsin@nac.net Subject: Re: [PRR] LANE Interlocking Content-Length: 1416 I'm pretty sure everything on the N side of the trackage at LANE is industrial sidings. There is presently a derail as the P&H branch goes under Track 1 and prepares to join the middle tracks. BTW between LANE and HUNTER NJ Transit is building the new Newark Airport station; much of the westward platform is in place and this will be an island platform with an additional track N of track 4. I don't think they have started the eastward construction yet. Waverly Yard itself is mostly history. Also, I would love to know how to pronounce "Harsimus;" does it have a long "i"? BTW at Hunter big doin's also, the passenger connection to the LV is being totally rebuilt for faster speeds (45 mph I think I heard), a new switch is already cut in to Track 4 E of the current connection. And overhead the Route 21 bridge is being rebuilt and new ramps are rising. Finally Amtrak's track rebuilding monster train is working its way on Track 4 W from Rahway to Metropark, leaving concrete ties in its wake. John Bobsin Basking Ridge, NJ ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:36:23 -0400 From: bobsin@nac.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Signals Content-Length: 3889 Bill et al, Nice to see lots of signalling discussion. Sorry I'm a bit late in rejoining, but to a good purpose: a RT NJ-DC on the NEC, lots of position lights to look at! There is to my mind very little being published in the major mags on DCC vs the "old technology." For example, the MR articles on build-your-own DCC ("Easy DCC") said absolutely nothing about detection circuit compatibility. Very suspicious! Now, my system is kind of on back burner (mainly because of some strange problems I am having with my North Coast Engineering kit decoders; my expensive DigiTrax decoder works better, but I am a tinkerer!) BUT the first thing I cottoned to on the MR (Gutierrez) DCC sysem is that the booster output HAS NO COMMON GROUND. So unless I miss something all of the conventional track circuit detectors (including Bruce Chubb's Optimized Detector; all of these are direct descendants I would say to Linn Westcott's Twin T of 1958) are incompatible. Can somebody tell me whether commercial boosters have common ground output? Just to be clear, Easy DCC's outputs swing on both rails from zero to positive (alternately, of course). So I saw this coming and designed my own booster with a common ground for one rail, and the other rail swings between plus 12 and minus 12 volts. This is more expensive because you need both polarity power supplies. It may also cause more trouble in terms of radiation of the DCC signals, coupling between wires, etc; the NMRA standards seem to be silent regarding common ground vs symmetric implementations. So, next, as you have commented, detectors ought to work better with DCC: constant power on the rails. My thought exactly, except that the Chubb detectors, and probably others, have a capacitor across the diodes to squelch oscillations. This probably is shorting out the DCC signal so it's not detected. Some fiddling might cure this but I haven't gotten to it. Once the weather ceases to be nice and I get back to this, top priority is figuring out why the North Coast decoders have problems: one behaves erratically (might be getting too many packets addressed to it; DigiTrax doesn't complain), the other keeps blowing output transistors, even after replacing all four (this kind of microsurgery is no fun). For those using the Chubb Computer-MR Interface, another project was a lookalike system based on a completely different philosophy. Instead of reading in the whole RR every two seconds or so, I have micros out with the I/O boards that look for changes in the state of the inputs, and only report back to the PC when changes occur. This in principle would make the whole system run much faster, and breadboards have operated very nicely. The PC code is written in C on an ancient AT&T "Unix PC," and porting this to a modern system is top priority. But BASIC? Never!! Hope some of you resonate to this. For the SPFs, hope this is not too off topic; is there a better place for such discussions? John Bobsin Basking Ridge, NJ unfortunately on the DL&W PRRSignals@aol.com wrote: > > Hi, John... > > Gee, I thought that with DCC track circuits would be easier....with constant > full voltage applied to the track then any current flow would indicate > "occupied". > > Even a lighted car should cause enough diode drop to indicate the track > circuit condition; I got away with 1 K ohm resistors on freight car axles / > wheels. > > Please write and explain...thanks, Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] LANE Interlocking From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 98 10:32:44 -0400 Content-Length: 542 I believe these are sidings. There is a great deal of industry there, including the Studebaker assembly plant and Merck Pharmaceuticals. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:49:59 EDT Subject: [PRR] Ore jennies Content-Length: 795 To the best of my recollection the ore jennies used on the C&P branch in the 1940's and early 50's were freight car color [ almost boxcar red for non-SPF's ]; some had a circle keystone and some had only lettering. Of course they looked more rust colored from all the ore dust. Could someone tell me when the PRR started painting mineral cars, ore and coal, black--I think it was one of the marks of the decline. Jerry Finefrock ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] K4 AT Steamtown Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:34:45 -0400 Content-Length: 1285 Hi I'm Sam Vastano and I never submitted anything to the list. but I would like to ask if anyone knew of the status of the K4 that is in Steamtown. Last year I was on a business trip and stopped by but I was not allowed to take a look, they had a scheduled tour at 1:00 and I was there at 10:00. Any info would be appreciated. I would like to thank all of you that submit information every day. I am, at least I consider myself a baby in terms of the PRR, I was born in '68 and I can not even remember seeing any rolling stock or locos actually running. My grandfather was an employee of the PRR and I have a few items that I cherish that are genuine. His passing has really sparked my interest in tha PRR. I appreciate all the wonderful information that comes to me every day. I am one of those faithful listeners and recieve the huge amount of information posted every day. Thanks Sam svastano@ccia.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:47:53 -0500 From: rboydrrs@mail.inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] beating rivet counters - - Content-Length: 1057 >From: padraice@juno.com (Patrick M Egan) >Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 22:08:19 -0400 > >When I run into one of the real pain-in-the-backside rivet counters that >needs to be cut down, I ask him if his air brakes work. >Pat Egan ===== For those of you who have a sound system, howzabout rigging up an air brake wheeze so that when said rivet counter is forced to reply in the negative, you can push a button and really grind it in? Model railroading is fun, especially when you are twisted enough! Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: Re: [PRR] LANE Interlocking Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:19:13 -0400 Content-Length: 1932 Jerry Britton wrote: >At LANE interlocking, in New Jersey, track 1 rises up and allows turnouts >from tracks 2, 3, and 4 to turnout and duckunder it to enter Waverly >Yard, labaled as the "Passaic & Harsimus Branch" on the interlocking map >on Keystone Crossings. > >On the opposite site of the four track main, there are turnouts from the >main, but they are not labeled. Are these sidings, or does the "Passaic & >Harsimus Branch" cross over the mains, or is this another branch? The two tracks on the north, off of "5 running" are the leads (tracks A & B) to Durant Yard, named for Will Durant, founder of General Motors which has a major major presence in the Linden area. After all, GM had its foundation in NJ, not in Michigan. In Waverly Yard, the PRR's two main routes to the NJ waterfront diverged at WA-3. The Main Line at Lane technically joins the Greenville Branch while the Passaic and Harsimus Cove joins at a location called WA-3, a former block station at Waverly. The Greenville Branch goes due east to the float bridges at Greenville that formed the gateway to New England.The P&H set out northeast, more or less paralleling the main line and passing through and feeding Meadows Yard. It then continued to the Jersey City waterfront where the Harsimus Cove yard fed float bridges and the PRR's massive Harborside Terminal. (NJ Transit's Hudson-Bergen Light Rail system, currently under construction, will immortalize these famous PRR locations with stops at Exchange Place, Harborside and Harsimus Cove.) Dick Makse ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:39:08 -0500 From: "Laird, Bill (GWise)" Subject: [PRR] K4 AT Steamtown -Reply Content-Length: 1394 Date: 07/10/1998 07:37 pm (Friday) From: Bill Laird To: INET.MAIL("PRR-Talk@dsop.com") Subject: [PRR] K4 AT Steamtown -Reply Sam, others may well have more current information, but here is my 2 cents worth. I took the backshop tour last October and the K4 was in the shop and pretty well stripped down. They had removed the backhead, which was dangerously thin in places, and were constructing supporting structure to cradle it for a trip to the foundry to have a replacement cast. They were inspecting the firebox and boiler and I saw several spots which looked as if they had been marked for repair. Bill Laird Houston, Texas >>> PRR-Talk@dsop.com 07/10/98 11:34am >>> Hi I'm Sam Vastano and I never submitted anything to the list. but I would like to ask if anyone knew of the status of the K4 that is in Steamtown. Last year I was on a business trip and stopped by but I was not allowed to take a look, they had a scheduled tour at 1:00 and I was there at 10:00. Any info would be appreciated. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:00:21 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] LANE Interlocking Content-Length: 1276 Ah, memories! I first started railfanning in 1976/77, back when all this stuff was still being used. I remember when freighs still served Harsimus Cove. Of course, I didn't shoot the yard office or anything. duh! I remember Waverly yard when the hump office (wa4?) and WA5 and WA6 were still open. Where there switchtenders at Wa2, etc at one time? I remember GG1's and E44's on the road freights, while RS11's swithched the hump. Shot alot of the motive power, but not alot of the buildings, yard, etc. Double duh! I remember Exchange Place before the area was redeveloped. At Exchange Place, there was still 1 catenary pole left, no other traces at all. Cople of quick questions: where was the exact location of NJ tower on the National Docks? what trains/traffic etc did Harsimus Cove and Greenville serve from 1970 to 1985 or so? Frank (help restore a G to service) Garon Perth Amboy, NJ ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:08:38 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR structures Content-Length: 1422 Working with the Railway Station Historical Society to craete a website listing all remaining structures by RR/State/County, etc. Have shot 90% of all remaining PRR stations/towers, etc that we know of, but need help here, guys! especially with stations, etc that have been relocated. Anyone interested in reviewing/assisting the info? I can e mail or post my list, and you guys can make corrections. Just found out a possible PRR station still extant in New Brunswick, NJ at Suydam St.? It's listed in 1901 tt's. Looks alot like Colonia, NJ did. Any conformation? Visited Midsteel, Pa last month. Block staion still there, boarded up. All position light signals in place and lit, nice! CR Gp's still serving the steel mill in Midland, good to see the heart of the PRR still busy. Does anybody know if Rave in Ravenna, Oh is still standing? What operations etc did Brady Lake, OH control? When was it closed? Finally, is the E44 in Strasburg out in the open and shootable? How about the P5a in St Loius? Thanks! Frank Garon ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Signals and modeling Clinic for Conv. (fwd) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:19:27 -0700 Content-Length: 3938 My take on this is a little different. I see the signal logic as being primarily combinatorial logic - meaning there is very little memory or state involved. Also the logic is very parallel, meaning that similar (but not identical) logic is being replicated over and over. Lastly it is I/O intensive, meaning that there are lots of inputs and outputs. Thus it seems to me that a better solution would be to directly implement the logic equations in hardware using programmable logic devices (PLD), instead of trying to emulate the logic functions with a computer. A PLD is a chip whose insides gets configured by the user. Thus the logic function that it performs is completely customizable. I just checked, and large programmable devices are available in the $30 range. Such devices have over 100 inputs and outputs and 10,000 logic gates - enough to implement loads of logic equations. The logic equations are compiled on a computer using software from the chip manufacturer that is free. With a little thought and engineering, the equations could be loaded into the PLD with just a serial cable. So, I see a large portion (if not all) of the logic implemented in one inexpensive chip that is customizable and maintainable using free software. Seems like it would be simpler to bypass an attempt to generalize the logic in software, and specify the exact equations you need. John > ---------- > From: D. Gabe Gabriel[SMTP:gabe@polymath.com] > Sent: Thursday, July 09, 1998 4:04 PM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Signals and modeling Clinic for Conv. (fwd) > > Subject: [PRR] PRR Signals and modeling Clinic for Conv. (fwd) > > >Finally, I've indicated that I would like for my own purposes to design > >a computer program to implement this sort of stuff. I would need some > >help from the electronics experts (I'm an advanced novice at electronics) > >among us and would be willing to work with other people who know how to > >program. At this point, Visual C++ is probably the way to go, make it > >Windoze-based, run it on your spare 486... (Scary. Real scary. When > >486 came out, it was being touted in _Byte_ and elsewhere as "mainframe > >power on your desktop". And now they are "spares".) > > > >I would envision the program to be FREEWARE, donated to the PRRT&HS > >solely for licensing, but free to the public, and containing interfaces > >to those detectors, etc., that are commercially available or home > >buildable a la Chubb. I would like to make the thing as inexpensive > >as possible, too, since the hardware -- good model hardware -- is not > >cheap. > > Just my 2 cents.... The "conventional" microprocessor logic used today > could be easily modeled using MS QuickBasic and a 386, using IEEE > A/D boards - a low cost investment, easy to dedicate the money for > even the average modeller - It is impossible to make a "generic" > software system for a railroad (no one has one yet on a working RR), > so MSQB is much simpler to model signal logic... > but, as for the trackside components, I know nothing of them > and would like to learn more from this too... > > Gabe > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:59:53 -0700 Subject: [PRR] SIGNALS From: staffsgtyork@juno.com Content-Length: 771 I PERSONALLY WOULD LIKE TO SEE A PRR SIGNAL SESSION ON HOW TO READ SIGNALS, AND GET AN EDUCATION ON THEIR USE AND INTERPRETATION. THIS IS ALL NEW TO ME. SSGT YORK _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:55:17 -0700 Subject: [PRR] SHARKS IN THE POOL... From: staffsgtyork@juno.com Content-Length: 1729 DEAR GROUP, READ THE LATEST BOOK BY THE LATE JOHN D. HAHN, ABOUT THE PRR DIESEL LOCO PICTORIAL VOL. IV "BALDWIN CAB AND TRANSFER UNITS". ACCORDING TO JOHN C. HAYMAN'S "RAILS ALONG THE CHESAPEAKE", SOME OF THE LAST SHARKS IN THE PRR SYSTEM FOUGHT IN OUT ON THE DELMARVA PENINSULA. ONE THAT I HAVE A PHOTO OF IS #9594, A BF-16 ASSIGNED TO THE LAKE REGION. IN MR. HAHN'S BOOK IT WAS PHOTOGRAPHED IN OHIO (P.248), AND WAS ASSIGNED TO THE LAKE REGION AS LATE AS 9-1-60. IT WAS RETIRED IN 1966 (JULY 2ND). SOMEWHERE BETWEEN '60 AND '66 THE UNIT AND AT LEAST ONE OTHER 5 STRIPER SISTER MADE THEIR WAY SOUTH EAST. QUESTION IS: 1. WHERE THERE MAJOR RETIREMENTS LEADING TO THE DISPERSAL OF SHARKS TO SMALLER SYSTEMS IN THE EARLY 1960'S? WHY DID A FEW OF THE ENGINES BECOME ASSIGNED TO A SMALL AREA LIKE WILMINGTON/ DELMARVA (CHESAPEAKE REGION)? 2. ANY ONE FROM THE LAKE OR CHESAPEAKE REGIONS KNOW WHEN THESE UNITS MIGRATED? I KNOW DELMARVA HAD A BOAT LOAD OF BLW SWITCHERS, SO HAD THE MECHANICS TO KEEP THE SHARKS SWIMMING. BUT HOW MANY ENDED UP HERE IS ALSO UNKNOWN TO ME. MANY THANKS, SSGT YORK _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:51:19 -0500 (CDT) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: [PRR] PRR: Burgettstown Station Content-Length: 1081 I received my copy of "The Pennsylvania Railroad's Golden Triangle. Main Line Panorama in the PIttsburgh Area" from the PRRT&HS. It covers the main east of Pittsburgh, the PCC&SL, and the Ft. Wayne lines. On page 42-43 is a photo of the Burgettstown Station on the Pan Handle line. The building was still standing and in good shape, newly painted and for sale, last summer. Mark, you asked if it was a freight, passenger or mixed use station. I saw no signs of a freight door, and there is none in the photo, so I would say it was passenger. Anyone know otherwise? Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551-5926 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 18:35:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] T1 decoder Content-Length: 729 In a message dated 98-07-10 10:51:03 EDT, Bruce Smith writes: << I suggest a PFM edge ported speaker, mounted on the floor of the tender. >> Used to work for the company which made those (when I was a child :-)). PFMs may have been a Far East version. I may even havea sample lying around , though whether it would work after 28 years is debatable. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 18:50:17 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Signals Content-Length: 1269 In a message dated 98-07-10 12:06:02 EDT, John Bobsin writes: << Hope some of you resonate to this. For the SPFs, hope this is not too off topic; is there a better place for such discussions? >> I have a wide tolerance for what appears on lists, as long as it is polite. The signal discussion may fall into at least two subsets: what signals to place where in accordance with Pennsy practice (historical) and how to wire them (geekdom). My personal opinion is the first is very much on topic. If the second got too involved,I'd just use my delete button. If it got too deep into DCC, it might be moved to that talk list, although I have unsubscribed to that list because I felt the culture was too confrontational (my compliments to the PRR-talk list which, with the LD-SIG list and a few others, seems to have a high ratio of gentlemen and ladies to yahoos). Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 16:15:03 -0700 Subject: [PRR] ARCH BARS 'N' HI CUBES From: staffsgtyork@juno.com Content-Length: 868 >I never tell a host that they are wrong - but sometimes I do ask questions >"what made you decide to use arch bar trucks under your hi cube box cars?" >Dick Ross I need one of those to go with my Candy Apple Green metal flake Pennsy RS36 ALCo. SSGT York _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 19:40:21 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Signals Content-Length: 963 bobsin@nac.net wrote: > > ...Hope some of you resonate to this. For the SPFs, hope this is not > too off topic; is there a better place for such discussions? > John, There is a web group known as RRSim (Model Railway Control Concepts Exchange), which gets very much into the nitty-gritty of this and more. They have been quite dormant lately, or else I have been dropped off the list. The URL to find them is: http://www.total.net/~prodyn/index.html This URL still works; however, I would be happy for the discussion to stay on PRR-Talk. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 21:14:52 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Signal Talk Proposal Content-Length: 1513 Many thanks for the many positive notes on my proposal for a talk about modeling a PRR signal system. A few thoughts might be in order concerning the subject. The design, operation and modeling of a signal system can be a hobby within a hobby. I have no problem with that, after all we all have parts of this great pastime that we enjoy more than others. Some folks even pursue these parts to the the exclusion of everything else, and more power to them. In my case I sort of stumbled into the issue of signals as I was completing the track on the Altoona-Gallitzin part of my railroad. I had to have signals if this thing was to look and act right. I eventually completed the task and the results are truly worth it. What I hope to pass along to my fellow modelers is what I have learned by trial and error. I will leave the complicated aspects to the the great folks who exchange ideas in the Signal SIG. The high tech electronics guys have my admiration but I will design this presentation for the guy who wants to keep it simple (and not expensive). Will keep you up to date on my progress. Thanks for your time. Al Werner ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] PRR station sign maker.. Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 13:04:32 -0400 Content-Length: 582 Hi all, Just thought I'd let everyone know that there's an updated version of my PRR station sign maker at http://prr.railfan.net/makesign.html . Now it makes signs with keystone shaped borders too! Enjoy! Rob ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Signals and modeling Clinic for Conv. Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 08:37:23 -0400 Content-Length: 2880 Bill, Sounds like you have put a lot of effort into this. My personal preference would lean more toward the actual modeling of PRR signals and ways to control them. Obviously, an introduction would include prototype practices, but it would be more interesting and helpful to me if the majority of the clinic was aimed at modeling. Is there anyone out there now that supplies accurate and working PRR signals? Jerry Breon -----Original Message----- From: PRRSignals@aol.com To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com Date: Thursday, July 09, 1998 1:30 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR Signals and modeling Clinic for Conv. >Regarding the proposed Signal clinic for Altoona, August 1999: > >I am in frequent contact with over a dozen people that have studied, worked on >and really understand the PRR Signal System. ' Enthusiasts ' are fine; but I >believe this type of clinic would call for solid knowledge and ' hands-on ' >experience. > >This 'signal group' includes people that: worked for the PRR, are PRRT&HS >Members, design signal circuits, have worked on signal wiring, have collected >and studied every PRR interlocking diagram, have worked in PRR Towers, and >several who have accurately built working PRR signal systems for their model >railroads. > >These are very knowledgable folks, who are willing to share their information >readily. I could envision a working display with open and actual wiring >examples. > >At a minimum, participants would gain information on the prototype system. For >modelers, that knowledge could also be translated into realistic and accurate >working model systems. > >Our only 'missing piece' is a modeler who could discuss the merits / defects >of the various model track circuit / detection systems that are available. > >My 'PRR Signal Course' articles will be published in the Keystone and / or the >Clear Block ( from the Signal SIG of the NMRA) before then. If so, that would >provide a good basic 'platform' to begin from. > >Suggestions for content / depth / etc. of the clinic are welcome. > >Bill Strassner, PRRSignals@aol.com > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry and Phyllis Morgan" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Signal Talk Proposal Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 10:16:24 -0400 Content-Length: 2537 Some of us in the hinterlands will not be able to make your presentation. Will you put the information on Jerry's Keystone Crossing to help us out? I am interested in the uniqueness of the PRR signal system and how to read it. If anyone know a location for PRR type signals in "O scale" I would love to learn about that. My pike is not yet ready for signals, but I WILL get there. My time period is late 1930's. Thanks, Larry Morgan and Phyllis -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of AJW1957@aol.com Sent: Friday, July 10, 1998 8:15 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR Signal Talk Proposal Many thanks for the many positive notes on my proposal for a talk about modeling a PRR signal system. A few thoughts might be in order concerning the subject. The design, operation and modeling of a signal system can be a hobby within a hobby. I have no problem with that, after all we all have parts of this great pastime that we enjoy more than others. Some folks even pursue these parts to the the exclusion of everything else, and more power to them. In my case I sort of stumbled into the issue of signals as I was completing the track on the Altoona-Gallitzin part of my railroad. I had to have signals if this thing was to look and act right. I eventually completed the task and the results are truly worth it. What I hope to pass along to my fellow modelers is what I have learned by trial and error. I will leave the complicated aspects to the the great folks who exchange ideas in the Signal SIG. The high tech electronics guys have my admiration but I will design this presentation for the guy who wants to keep it simple (and not expensive). Will keep you up to date on my progress. Thanks for your time. Al Werner ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 11 Jul 98 15:53:00 EDT From: Subject: [PRR] F-7 pilots Content-Length: 725 It seems to me that the PRR equipped all of its F-7s (maybe F-3s for that matter) with passenger pilots. Was there a specific reason for this? Or was it just one of the 'things' that the PRR did? And are there any kit manufactures that provide this pilot with there locomotives or does it always have to be an after market add-on? thanks, Kris Kollar ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] F-7 pilots Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 16:22:57 -0400 Content-Length: 1627 Kris, To my knowledge, only the Proto 2000 E7 and E8 models come with alternate pilots (freight and passenger). These are very accurate and detailed parts which are available separately. I've used a bunch of 'em. Detail Associates #2214 and Cal-Scale #442 are the other pilots available that I know of. Jerry Breon -----Original Message----- From: kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Saturday, July 11, 1998 4:01 PM Subject: [PRR] F-7 pilots >It seems to me that the PRR equipped all of its F-7s (maybe F-3s for that >matter) with passenger pilots. Was there a specific reason for this? Or >was it just one of the 'things' that the PRR did? And are there any kit >manufactures that provide this pilot with there locomotives or does it >always have to be an after market add-on? > >thanks, > >Kris Kollar > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 20:11:54 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR structures Content-Length: 1650 In a message dated 98-07-10 16:08:38 EDT, you write: << Just found out a possible PRR station still extant in New Brunswick, NJ at Suydam St.? It's listed in 1901 tt's. Looks alot like Colonia, NJ did. Any conformation? >> Last elevation in City of New Brunswick fits into 1901 period; drove under viaduct bridge at Suydam Street c. 1963-1974, don't recall any station structure, or any steps which might have lead up a station. Perhaps, such a station did exist, and was removed in the 1901 elevation/grade separation work??? the ROW of the PRR in New Brunswick was not then (1960's) nor now (1990's) a place to do casual walks for industrial history research...being passed by a train doing 100mph sucks the inquisitional spirit out of one....there is a different feeeling in the more "protected" zones...it was o.k. to be five feet away from a GG1 with a train going c. 105mph through the New Brunswick station, 'cause there was a warning bell; likewise, nearly thirty years later at Marcus Hook PA, letting 125mph Metroliners go by on the "Lindbergh Special" stretch through the Sun refinery, 'cause there was some warning. FYI: locally in NB, Suydam is pronounced "SOOdam"; my northern NJ Dutch friends would more than likely said "Sue-EY-dem". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] F-7 pilots Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 22:03:27 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 825 On 11 Jul, "jbreon" wrote: > To my knowledge, only the Proto 2000 E7 and E8 models come with > alternate pilots (freight and passenger). These are very accurate and > detailed parts which are available separately. I've used a bunch of 'em. > Detail Associates #2214 and Cal-Scale #442 are the other pilots available > that I know of. Does anybody know of an E/F-unit pilot detail part in N Scale? I haven't been able to find one. Thanks! Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 23:39:03 -0400 From: Kent Loudon Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/10/98 Content-Length: 810 bobsin@nac.net wrote Fri, 10 Jul 1998 >> I would love to know how to pronounce "Harsimus;" does it have a long "i"? << Back when I worked in PRR's New York Freight Traffic Dept in the mid 60's, I recall the preferred pronunciation among the Operating people was "Har-SI-mus", but we car trace clerks used "HAR-s'mus" when talking to customers because it was easier to say ! - Kent Loudon, Somerville, NJ 20:19 11-Jul-98 via OzWin 2.20 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:35:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR structures Content-Length: 619 Hi Frank..!! and gang... Frank, I can't find my New Brunswick Street map, but when I started PRR 1965, there was a frt station at the east end of Baldwin St. Yard, for REA..!! The tracks stopped at that street......more later, old buddy, take care...Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 11:59:52 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Signals, Modeling, C/MRI Content-Length: 967 ....not so unfortunate, living in Basking Ridge.... especially if you remember DL&W MU's passing by....new junk..?? eh !! I only liked running red (prr) and green (dl&w) mu's...not silver...but the P&D (Gladstone Branch) is a great RR to run on !! Your C/MRI signal adaptation sounds great..i like the idea of only looking for / reacting to changes....this is how the prototype works...in US&S coded systems. Code starts only when a change in status shows, on the field end; or when actuated on the control end. I need help in this 'modern, high-tech' area...are you available / willing ..??..bill ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "D. Gabe Gabriel" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Signals and modeling Clinic for Conv. Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 15:36:58 -0400 Content-Length: 2280 >D. Gabe Gabriel wrote: >> >> Just my 2 cents.... The "conventional" microprocessor logic used today >> could be easily modeled using MS QuickBasic and a 386, using IEEE >> A/D boards - a low cost investment, easy to dedicate the money for >> even the average modeller - It is impossible to make a "generic" >> software system for a railroad (no one has one yet on a working RR), >> so MSQB is much simpler to model signal logic... >Stephen Bartlett wrote: > I am running Chubb's C/MRI system on an IBM PC, 4 MHz, _with a math >coprocessor_. It runs faster than on an 8 MHz 286 without the >coprocessor. The program loops about 2 times per second, not fast, but >quick enough for my railroad. Writing to the screen is the biggest >cause of slowdown. Bypassing the screen write when it is not needed >keeps the speed at its max, whatever that happens to be. Since the PRR >did not have CRT displays on their CTC systems, they would be an >anachronism anyway. >I am using MS Quickbasic; it is simple (!) and effective, easy to learn. >You are right, there is no standard package. However, Chubb's system, >while not cheap, is a cookbook procedure, both hard- and software, that >is extremely well documented. This makes it ideal for anyone who wants >Gabe, please tell us more about the IEEE A/D boards you mentioned. The "IEEE A/D" boards I mentioned are merely analog-to-digital and digital-to-analog boards that can be found new & used for ISA slots for interfacing with something other than the joystick port to the real world in real time. They can be found with 8 or 16 relay outputs, and 8 or 16 inputs - also as combinations input-output. Plugged in to an "old" 386 (more powerful than typical cpus used today for signaling) pretty straightforward to control a small interlocking. The best source I know of for these things is Nuts & Volts magazine. Gabe ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 19:01:53 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore jennies Content-Length: 687 Which ore jennies of the 40's and 50's are you referencing? The only one's I know of were PRR class G38, which were built in 1960, followed by G39 built in 1961 and G39 built in 1964. These were painted black. The last class of open top hoppers to be painted red were class H35, which were built in 1955. Dennis Sautters ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 20:46:12 -0400 From: bobsin@nac.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Signals, Modeling, C/MRI Content-Length: 4746 Hi guys, Rob Shoenberg asked me what kind of micros I am using, so I sent him the response below; let me share it with you-all also. But lest any of you start slobbering, this is all experimental, breadboards, I have no intent of trying to commercialize it . . . and it's summer, so who's got time? John Bobsin (in Basking Ridge, where for some reason today the MUs have been replaced by earthshattering diesels . . .) +++++++++++++++++= Hi Rob, A few years ago I bought a simple interface board and MS-DOS software that could be used to program Intel 8748/9 embedded microcontrollers. This is what I have been using. These are not the latest technology! but I think they remain popular, with a goodly assortment of peripheral chips. These are 8-bit machines. The 8749 has I believe 256 bytes of onboard RAM and 2048 bytes of onboard EPROM program memory. I think they cost about $15 each; price has been slowly rising, strangely enough. A "base" 8749 communicates with a PC over an RS-232 link; Intel publishes code to generate the serial link on the micro, without an external UART (they have a few bugs in their code, believe it or not!). For the Chubb CMRI look-alike system, the Base uP has the function of polling other "remote" 8749s around the layout, connected via a bidirectional, differential serial link (I'd have to check, but this is RS-449 or some similar number -- you can go a lot further than on an RS-232 link with this). The Base uP controls the daisy-chain serial link, addressing commands to any of the "remotes," which have to acknowledge responses. To look for changes out on the layout, where Chubb read in all the input leads and recomputed everything, the controlling PC asks the Base to poll the remotes; each remote has an image of what the PC thinks its input leads are and, of course, also knows what they really are. Each remote is polled in turn, and if nothing has changed, it sends back a very short acknowlegement that nothing is new. If something has changed, it sends back the port that has changed, and the correct data; the Base uP passes this to the PC, which then has to go out and rewrite the image in that remote, which is does by commands which basically pass right through the Base uP. This way you can poll many times a second; most of the time, nothing has changed, and if something has changed, almost all the time only one event has occured out on the layout. On the Remotes, interface to the layout is via I/O expander chips which are part of the 87xx family, and are very economical. The drivers and receiver circuits are very similar to Bruce's, but the similarity ends once you hit the next chip in, which are the I/O expanders and then the Remote 8749. The DCC stuff has been a pleasant diversion from the computer to railroad interface. First, I hooked another 8749 via a parallel interface to the Base 8749, and programmed the Base to talk to it in response to particular commands from the PC. I called this new 8749 DCC, and it is programmed to generate the DCC track signal. It also stores a number of DCC channel speed and direction states, so once set by the PC (via Base uP), it continues to generate speed and direction packets. It also has a DCC Ack input so it can be used to program decoders. It is a lot of fun working with the raw bits and bytes and talking to a commercial decoder! The first time I tried it and actually saw the Ack pulse from a decoder, I knew it was all going to work eventually. I am nervous about depending on a PC to run the railroad, so I have also built a standalone 8749 (I call this DCC Solo) which is hardwired (in microcode, that is) to produce DCC signals for locomotive addresses 100, 101, etc. The idea is to program each train to run on a consist address 100, 101, . . . The locomotive programming can be done offline via the "DCC" 8749 and using the PC to program CVs. Walkaround plug-in controls then are hardwired to ports on the DCC Solo 8749 controlling consist address 100, . . . This does not have the full flexibility of a commercial DCC system, but should work OK for my testing purposes anyway. All of this is kind of on the back burner during the summer. Did I answer your question, or was it something different entirely? John Bobsin Basking Ridge, NJ ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 AT Steamtown -Reply Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 21:03:04 -0500 Content-Length: 2181 For current(?) info on "our" K4 try Steamtown's website at http//www.microserve.net/~magicusa/steamtown.html. Recently there was a photo of the new backhead. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL -----Original Message----- From: Laird, Bill (GWise) To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Friday, July 10, 1998 2:46 PM Subject: [PRR] K4 AT Steamtown -Reply >Date: 07/10/1998 07:37 pm (Friday) >From: Bill Laird >To: INET.MAIL("PRR-Talk@dsop.com") >Subject: [PRR] K4 AT Steamtown -Reply > >Sam, others may well have more current information, but here is my 2 >cents worth. I took the backshop tour last October and the K4 was in >the shop and pretty well stripped down. They had removed the >backhead, which was dangerously thin in places, and were constructing >supporting structure to cradle it for a trip to the foundry to have a >replacement cast. They were inspecting the firebox and boiler and I saw >several spots which looked as if they had been marked for repair. > >Bill Laird >Houston, Texas > >>>> PRR-Talk@dsop.com 07/10/98 11:34am >>> >Hi I'm Sam Vastano and I never submitted anything to the list. but I would >like to ask if anyone knew of the status of the K4 that is in Steamtown. >Last year I was on a business trip and stopped by but I was not allowed >to take a look, they had a scheduled tour at 1:00 and I was there at >10:00. Any info would be appreciated. > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg Loco Facility - Questions & Photo Request Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 21:07:59 -0500 Content-Length: 3018 Jerry: Sorry I can't help any more on your other questions, but the ice house was probably used to provide ice to the engine crews. I think that usually the fireman carried it on board and stored it in one of the rounded tank ends on either side of the coal pile. Even with stokers firing was hot dirty work. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL -----Original Message----- From: Jerry_Britton To: PRR-Talk Date: Friday, July 10, 1998 9:16 AM Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg Loco Facility - Questions & Photo Request >Looking for photos and other info related to the Harrisburg locomotive >facilities (steam & diesel) that were built 1937 and after. > >Note that I have the Rails Northeast issue from 1976 which has an article >on the "new" deisel shop. I also have the Pennsy Journal issue that has >the article on the "new" steam shop. > >Am interested in all other photos of the roundhouse, machine shop, coal >tower, ash pit, wash pit, inspection pit, and literally all other >outbuildings. > >QUESTIONS: > >Near the coal tower there was an "ice house" between the coal supply >track and the loco tracks. What was its purpose? It obviously was not in >a position to ice reefers. > >There was a stub track near the roundhouse/machine shop that is labeled >"depressed" and indicates a "wood crib". Would this likely be for loading >scrap into gondolas? > >The Pennsy Journal map shows the water towers. Anyone know where the >locos actually received water? > >The Pennsy Journal reports the Harrisburg turntable -- at 125' -- to be >the largest on the system. Was this true? > >COMMENTS: > >There were numerous 50,000 gallon water towers...two by the roundhouse, >two by the coal tower. The Walthers kit appears to be a very close match. >Any comments? > >I visited the roundhouse (and was actually given permission to walk the >entire steam/diesel facilty) in the 1980s. Only took a few photos. Had I >only known! > >------------------------------------------------------------------ >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com >Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com >Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > >Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com >The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 00:13:14 EDT Subject: [PRR] 1940'S ore jennies Content-Length: 1024 Re: Dennis Sauters's query on 1940's ore jennies; I am going on recollection but remember in 1945-9 the use of some short low sided ore cars on PRR trains coming through Alliance on the C&P with a routing Whiskey Island to Pitt. These cars were old at the time and may have been Lines West conversions of 2-bay hoppers in the mid 20's. These moves differed from the practice of loading standard hoppers with 2 scoops of heavy iron ore over the wheelsets where the ore was not visible from trackside; on these moves the ore was visible. When the hoppers were used it looked like 3 engines [ N1s doubleheaded with a snapper] moving 100 empties. Jerry Finefrock ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] F-7 pilots From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 08:32:21 -0400 Content-Length: 1662 It seems to me that the PRR equipped all of its F-7s (maybe F-3s for that matter) with passenger pilots. Was there a specific reason for this? Or was it just one of the 'things' that the PRR did? And are there any kit manufactures that provide this pilot with there locomotives or does it always have to be an after market add-on? thanks, Kris Kollar ------------------------------------------------------------ Kris, Only the first set of 4 F-3s did not have the passenger pilot. All other F units had them. I believe the PRR did this because they wanted the doors which cover the coupler. These door only were available of the passenger pilot. They were the reason for the passenger pilots existence. Covering the coupler was considered a safety feature in case of a grade crossing accident. The errant motor vehicle could better be "deflected" if the coupler was not there to skewer the intruder. As for how to make them; I have had good success just wrapping some .015 sheet plastic over the freight pilot below the anticlimber and then trimming the bottom to shape. You lose the line of rivets which should be just below the anticlimber, but this make life easier on true rivet counters - they only have to count to zero. regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 10:18:02 CST Subject: [PRR] RE: my poor filing habits... Content-Length: 875 Hi, all, Some months ago I inquired about how to access PRR photos that at one time were credited to the Altoona Assoc. of Model Railroaders (I may have the name wrong). Specifically I need to obtain prints of the Denholm coal wharf when new that accompanied the article in the early 1980's on the wharf in the KEYSTONE. I got a reply but have managed to loose it. Help!! PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Drye, John" Subject: [PRR] N-Scale Trix Decapods Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:51:05 -0400 Content-Length: 1046 I recently purchased a pair of N-Scale Trix Decapods, with the thought of modifying them into I-1's. I found the old MRR article on making them into 2-10-2's but wondered if anyone had ever tried the 2-10-0 modification. Looks like what needs to be done includes the following: 1. Move the front of the boiler back about two scale feet. 2. Replace the pilot, maybe with one from an 0-8-0. 3. Modify the cylinders and steam pipe so they match up. Again, maybe the cylinders from an 0-8-0 would work. 4. Modify the piping, bell, headlight, and other boiler details to match the I-1. Well, at least, it's already got a Belpaire boiler. Thanks, John Drye ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:16:34 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] LANE Interlocking Content-Length: 1497 One minor addition to Dick's accurate discussion of Waverly Yard... A 1923 (?) aerial photo shows Durant Motor Works at that site, so the sidings served the fore-runner of GM. In latter years, the Atk Wire Train was parked there. The previous location, 'under Route 21 bridge' behind Hunter Tower resulted in too much vandalism. Near the Durant Plant are.....mostly fields....hardly recognizable from today. Especially for Frank G: in 1965, WA2, WA3, WA5 and WA6 were all manned Block Stations, and I got to work / post them all. WA4 - as you mentioned - was the general yardmaster's office, etc. WA5 also had a yardmaster, and switch-tenders to do the operators bidding. A dual crossover known as 'The Frog' was the major challenge to new switch- tenders. And.....WA7 was the RR name 'given' to the nearby bar...... I have recently assisted Walter Berko in identifying PRR People in various pictures that he took back then. He is planning a new work of 'PRR People' - if anyone can contribute. Pictures fine; with identification of the people, even better....Dick..?? Thanks for reviving nice memories....Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:31:52 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] LANE Interlocking Content-Length: 1347 In a message dated 98-07-10 15:45:13 EDT, you write: << Cople of quick questions: where was the exact location of NJ tower on the National Docks? what trains/traffic etc did Harsimus Cove and Greenville serve from 1970 to 1985 or so? >> This is hard to belive, but my old (1967) KARNY Tower sheets show: ( Most: power and cabin off the Meadows to the various yards to pick up their trains) WWD; from 'The Cove': SWC-1, TT-3, PR-7, and P-5. WWD; from Greenville: P-3, NWC-1, MD-13, N-13, N-3 AND MD-7. EWD; To 'The Cove': TT-6, DJ-2, and MD-18. EWD; To Greenville; CG-2, BNY-16, N-12, MD-16, CG-8, N-28, MD-6, and CS-8. The importance of the float operations are seen through the amount of Greenville Traffic. In later years, the various 'Runners' - some with Alco RS-1's...shifted inter-yard traffic to the Meadows and / or Waverly, and the road freights left directly from the Meadows Yard, picking up at Waverly on their way west. Great times !!.Bill. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:36:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] US&S Main Man.... Content-Length: 673 Hi, George - Thanks, nice thinking of me......Bob Fredland and I go back....ummmm...aways !! Seems like yesterday, more like twenty years. He has been absolutely great on sharing stuff with our signal group. We are both scrounging for interlocking parts, if you - or anyone else - can assist. Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:39:45 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Signal Clinic Topics Content-Length: 596 Hi, Bob - In my proposed 'outline', start with protoype practice and aspects, and logic behind same. Then move into 'how to reasonably' replicate same on a model RR. Wiring can be very basic, up to the full high-tech realm.....Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cschlund@sfsu.edu Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 15:38:31 Subject: [PRR] N-scale traction tires on locos Content-Length: 1537 Hi Roger & list members, Some years back, someone wrote an article in "N Scale" mag, where they illustrated the technique of painting a traction tire onto a metal driver. They suggested flat paint, and a small brush. With the motor on & the drivers turning slowly, touch the paint on with the brush. I've not tried this myself, and I don't remember which issue either (sorry!), so your basically on your own. The author suggested that when the paint wears off, just do it all over again. - Claus > Is there anyone out there who might know where I could get some driver > wheels set up for traction tires? I have tried just sticking Virnex > traction tires on the loco, but they're so thick they almost lift the > other wheels off the track. If a groove could be put in two drivers, > this might solve the situation. -------------------------***{}***------------------------- Claus Schlund (Shop Foreman, Bernal Heights Car & Foundry) Modeling steam-era PRR in N scale - San Francisco, CA Interested in BHC&F products? Check out our no-longer-one-and-only N scale passenger car kit at http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~cschlund/models/pullman.gif ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:53:41 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Signal models.. Content-Length: 742 Hi, Jerry - Thanks again for the 'talk'.. Suppliers of Model Signals; Custom Brass did ( still does?) offer O Scale. House of Duddy made pot signals - yellow lights vs. correct white. Currently, Shiloh Signals and Oregon offer multi-scale products. I have a Shiloh bracket mast pair that look very good ( in G gauge, no less). Help ! ...requested for other sources....Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 00:19:54 +0000 From: tmahon@cfnh.com (Tom Mahon) Subject: [PRR] Advice re N6-a Kit Content-Length: 809 Greetings, Purchase a Quality Craft (Sic) kit for an N6a. Instructions call for sanding sealer on some of the wood parts. Have not worked with this stuff before and would appreciate guidance/counsel on best method(s) for application and knowing when you've got it the way you need it. I do have the steel wool. I am concerned about using too much and clogging the scribed siding. Looking forward to the replies. Thanks in advance. Tom Mahon ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] LANE Interlocking (fwd) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:19:40 EDT Content-Length: 1291 > Especially for Frank G: in 1965, WA2, WA3, WA5 and WA6 were all manned Block > Stations, and I got to work / post them all. WA4 - as you mentioned - was the > general yardmaster's office, etc. > > WA5 also had a yardmaster, and switch-tenders to do the operators bidding. > A dual crossover known as 'The Frog' was the major challenge to new switch- > tenders. And.....WA7 was the RR name 'given' to the nearby bar...... Bill, could you summarize the function of each? Why were there 4 Block Stations, rather than the 2 towers, one on either end of the yard, seen at many yards? (E.g., East and West Conway; Day and Banks/Rockville; Adams and Mike) Why use switchtenders rather than power-operated switches? Also, any idea why Waverly has gone away? Was there particular traffic that Waverly, Meadows, and Karny typically handled? Was Greenville exclusively (or almost exclusively) float traffic? -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:59:41 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Harsimus Cove... Content-Length: 903 Frank, put that on the prr-talk, also....get dick makse in here ..!! Harsimus Cove had a large refrigerated warehouse facility for storage / trans- shipment of produce, etc. Plus the many Jersey City businesses nearby, Colgate, etc., and those near Waldo Ave. Yard. JC had the rubber tired 'locos' for switching street locations... "JH" Tower, manned by switchtenders, handled the throat into the 'Cove.... I will need my NY Terminal book for a complete list and ct1000E book; these thoughts just off 'top of head'.........Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 16:28:41 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Harsimus Cove... Content-Length: 608 Was JH tower in Harsimus Cove the yard office type building on the north side? It's hard to tell there was ever a yard here. I was there in 78 or 79 and the yard and yard office was still there. Of course, I didn't shoot it. DUH!!!! Frank Garon ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:31:41 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] N-scale traction tires on locos Content-Length: 926 Hi All, Claus' tip on "Painting on traction tires" sounds excellent. It caused me to flash on the electrical conductive paints that some modelers use for "wiring" difficult locations like signal masts, etc. Could these by some great stroke of fortune have a high co-efficient of friction and also come in silver? Anyone who's used these paints have any input? Also, how about roughing up the surface of the tire with some extremely fine grit paper and very light pressure before, or instead of painting? Ron. PRR-Altoona to Johnstown, '39-'59 in N-Scale. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 16:14:35 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Advice re N6-a Kit From: staffsgtyork@juno.com Content-Length: 1787 Dear Tom, Most sanding sealer (we sell Pactra Aerogloss at our store) is applied by brush like clear lacquer. You should be able to thin most brands for airbrushing. I would brush on a light coat and allow to thoroughly dry. Most of it will soak in the the wood's pores. Afterwards, sand with 400 grit paper. After 2nd coat I would use 600 or 800 to keep the finish smooth. Personally I would not use steel wool due to the small hair like pieces having the ability to hide in the wood with out showing(at least until the final painting is done!). As for sand paper, use "wet or dry type" dipped into a bowl of water and applied to the finish. I wouldn't soak the model itself in the bowl. This method allows you to gain a smoother finish than dry sanding. As far as the scribbed siding, apply a thin coat at a time. Since it soaks in, you will have an opportunity to judge how much more will be need to finish the job before the second coat is applied. Use very little pressure on the sand paper. The water will wash the debris away from the sanding grit so that it can do the work will little pressure, leaving the details on the car sides. SSGT York _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 16:38:48 -0700 Subject: [PRR] PRR colors.. From: staffsgtyork@juno.com Content-Length: 2063 Only dumb question is one never asked, and I don't have color chips, so here goes. In "Pennsy Steam Years Vol. 1", page 106 is a picture of Mingo Junction, 1950. Behind the I1 is a PRR X31 coupled to a X 26. I know accuracy of film has limits, but the color of the X31 is lighter (and faded) than the CNR box nearby, and CNR cars are not that dark. The Bowser models of the X31 are very dark compared to the one in the photo. Plus ALL photos of PRR freight cars not saturated in soot appear to be close to the red color used by the Western Maryland on their boxcars. Detailing freight cars is my joy in HO modeling. What brand paint is the best match for pre 60's PRR freight? I would like to use an acrylic paint as to avoid barriers and fumes (am I out of luck?). What do youse guys use? And there is so much debate on Engine colors. Who makes the closest match to the PRR's DGLE (Dark Green Locomotive Enamel, so I found out today in the Model Railroading Editorial page--yes, I am a novice in Pennsy turf!). How about Model Flex's Brunswick Green? Would I use this on all Pennsy freight engines? What about steamers--both Freight and Passenger? I appreciate anyones expertise on this. Regards, SSGT York PS--Mr. Dixon: If you are out there--were Penn Central units a true Black color? Is Conrail's Executive set a matching shade of Pullman green to match the business cars? They seem to be the same shade. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Michael DiMaio" Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 16:48:22 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Advice re N6-a Kit Content-Length: 1570 any foot notes from quinn? none in essay that i can see Date sent: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 00:19:54 +0000 From: tmahon@cfnh.com (Tom Mahon) Organization: CFNH To: PRR Talk Subject: [PRR] Advice re N6-a Kit > Greetings, > Purchase a Quality Craft (Sic) kit for an N6a. Instructions call for > sanding sealer on some of the wood parts. Have not worked with this > stuff before and would appreciate guidance/counsel on best method(s) for > application and knowing when you've got it the way you need it. I do > have the steel wool. I am concerned about using too much and clogging > the scribed siding. > > Looking forward to the replies. Thanks in advance. > > Tom Mahon > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > Michael DiMaio, Ph.D. Department of Philosophy Salve Regina University Newport, RI 02920 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Michael DiMaio" Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:03:40 -0500 Subject: [PRR] letter misaddressed Content-Length: 507 I am sorry for misdirecting a piece of email to the list. Michael DiMaio, Ph.D. Department of Philosophy Salve Regina University Newport, RI 02920 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Advice re N6-a Kit Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:18:07 -0400 Content-Length: 2148 Tom, Don't be afraid to try sanding sealer. Its a great aid in building wood kits in that it reduces the oversize grain pattern in the wood and helps get rid of all those fuzzies that never seem to disappear. Sanding sealer is particularly necessary when the wood is actually representing a steel surface as in Quality Crafts steel hopper kits. You can purchase sanding sealer at shops that cater to model airplane folks or you can use white shellac. Either way, thin it with denatured alcohol and allow the first coat to dry thoroughly before sanding. Successive coats can be applied and sanded with very fine paper then 0000 steel wool to get a glass smooth finish. Try it. I think you will be pleased with the results it produces on your models. Jerry Breon -----Original Message----- From: Tom Mahon To: PRR Talk Date: Monday, July 13, 1998 12:56 PM Subject: [PRR] Advice re N6-a Kit >Greetings, >Purchase a Quality Craft (Sic) kit for an N6a. Instructions call for >sanding sealer on some of the wood parts. Have not worked with this >stuff before and would appreciate guidance/counsel on best method(s) for >application and knowing when you've got it the way you need it. I do >have the steel wool. I am concerned about using too much and clogging >the scribed siding. > >Looking forward to the replies. Thanks in advance. > >Tom Mahon > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Stephen R. Sejda" Subject: [PRR] eBay Heads Up: PRR Passenger Equipment Roster - 10/1/54 Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 18:08:05 -0400 Content-Length: 745 Greetings to the group. If anyone wants a copy of the 1954 Passenger Equipment Roster "reprint" there are 7 available at Dutch Auction on eBay. Here's the link: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=21146616 This is a great publication because this reprint includes truck class information that was not found in the original. Happy Shopping! Steve Sejda ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] eBay Heads Up: PRR Passenger Equipment Roster - 10/1/54 Date: Mon, 13 Jul 98 20:08:33 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1032 On 7/13/98 6:08 PM, Stephen R. Sejda (srsejda@jaguarsystems.com) wrote: >If anyone wants a copy of the 1954 Passenger Equipment Roster "reprint" >there are 7 available at Dutch Auction on eBay. Here's the link: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=21146616 > >This is a great publication because this reprint includes truck class >information that was not found in the original. However, this is not an "all inclusive" roster. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR colors.. Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 23:03:11 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 3489 On 13 Jul, staffsgtyork@juno.com wrote: > In "Pennsy Steam Years Vol. 1", page 106 is a picture of Mingo Junction, > 1950. Behind the I1 is a PRR X31 coupled to a X 26. I know accuracy of > film has limits, but the color of the X31 is lighter (and faded) than the > CNR box nearby, and CNR cars are not that dark. The Bowser models of the > X31 are very dark compared to the one in the photo. Almost all early PRR models are too brown and dark, but as you see in the photo, the colors weathered dramatically over time. This is always a fun topic, mostly becasue everybody has their own opinion and tolerances. > Plus ALL photos of > PRR freight cars not saturated in soot appear to be close to the red > color used by the Western Maryland on their boxcars. In early paints, iron oxide pigments were the cheapest, so lots of roads wound up with colors that were close to each other (B&O, PRR, WM; I'm sure there are more). > Detailing freight cars is my joy in HO modeling. What brand paint is the > best match for pre 60's PRR freight? I would like to use an acrylic > paint as to avoid barriers and fumes (am I out of luck?). What do youse > guys use? I also much prefer acrylics because they clean up easier and (reportedly) don't rot your brain (probably too late anyway). Accuflex/Modelflex Light Tuscan Oxide Red up to 1952, Dark Tuscan Oxide Red after that. Some add a few drops per bottle of orange to the former, and some more brown to the latter; varying the mix is a good way to simulate the variations. Both of these colors weathered rapidly, and the cars got *very* dirty, so the cars themselves are all sorts of colors. Rich Orr tells me that the best reproduction of pre-1952 color is on PRR Color Guide, Vol 1, the gon on top of page 55. > And there is so much debate on Engine colors. Who makes the closest > match to the PRR's DGLE (Dark Green Locomotive Enamel, so I found out > today in the Model Railroading Editorial page--yes, I am a novice in > Pennsy turf!). How about Model Flex's Brunswick Green? Would I use this > on all Pennsy freight engines? What about steamers--both Freight and > Passenger? Modelflex/Accuflex Brunswick Green is very close, certainly close enough for me. It's a bit different than the DGLE that Life-Like is using, but not so much that it's noticeable on the MT pilot on my LL F7. As far as I know, steamers were DGLE above the frame line, black below. However, I haven't found a real good match for Tuscan in acrylics; I've been using Accuflex PRR Maroon, but I suspect that it isn't close enough; it's reportedly the color *inside* the "Fleet of Modernism" oval. It's OK for touching up Rivarossi passenger cars after I scrub off the name or number; the new decal helps hide any color mismatch. Well, everybody? What do *you* think? Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] F-7 pilots Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 22:54:00 -0500 Content-Length: 3511 Interesting stream on F unit pilots. I have also used Andy's technique of a sheet styrene "wrapper", even had it published as a tip a few years ago in Rail Model Journal. I have also used it successfully on P2K E units, since the P2K passenger pilot is a good replica of what EMD put on the E6, but for my taste it protrudes too much for use on PRR E's and F's. The Details Associates 2214 also suffers from this malady. I have not tried the Cal Scale 442 because of the price and the styrene wrapper works. I currently have in work a modification to a P2K passenger pilot to improve its appearance; mostly it involves filing away much of the lower portion and fabricating a wrapper. Note the sale by Highliners of their stuff to Athearn. Their B units can be made into exquisite models of any phase PRR F unit. Over the many years of awaiting the A units, available information has shown that the pilot would be a separate piece, both freight and passenger. Judging from their accomplishments with the B units, they will probably get the pilots right on for us SPF's. I am looking for a couple of Stewart/Kato power units... Hope this helps, Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL -----Original Message----- From: Andrew S. Miller To: kkollar@pamdt.ang.af.mil ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, July 13, 1998 7:47 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] F-7 pilots > >It seems to me that the PRR equipped all of its F-7s (maybe F-3s for that >matter) with passenger pilots. Was there a specific reason for this? Or was >it just one of the 'things' that the PRR did? And are there any kit >manufactures that provide this pilot with there locomotives or does it always >have to be an after market add-on? > >thanks, > >Kris Kollar > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > >Kris, > > Only the first set of 4 F-3s did not have the passenger pilot. All other F >units had them. I believe the PRR did this because they wanted the doors >which cover the coupler. These door only were available of the passenger >pilot. They were the reason for the passenger pilots existence. Covering the >coupler was considered a safety feature in case of a grade crossing accident. >The errant motor vehicle could better be "deflected" if the coupler was not >there to skewer the intruder. > >As for how to make them; I have had good success just wrapping some .015 sheet >plastic over the freight pilot below the anticlimber and then trimming the >bottom to shape. You lose the line of rivets which should be just below the >anticlimber, but this make life easier on true rivet counters - they only have >to count to zero. > >regards >Andy Miller > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 01:23:08 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR colors.. Content-Length: 1119 Quotes from recent posts received secondhand: << The Bowser models of the > X31 are very dark compared to the one in the photo. >> That is why I bought an undec. > Plus ALL photos of > PRR freight cars not saturated in soot appear to be close to the red > color used by the Western Maryland on their boxcars. I actually standardized on Procolor Western Maryland oxide red at one time, but have run out of my supply and I don't know if they are still around. If there are 250 SPFs in a room there will be 250 formulas for freight car color, but my latest is 50:50 PollyScale Zinc Chromate Primer and Special Oxide Red . Goes on a frightening shade of orange but darkens slightly as it dries to get (my) desired effect. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Jul 98 7:17:23 EDT From: Subject: re: [PRR] N-scale traction tires on locos Content-Length: 2906 This suggestion lead me to think of another alternative along the same lines. I've never tried this but in theory if the paint idea works so may this. There is a material (its like liquid rubber/vinyl -- Don't remember the brand name) that you dip the handles of pliers, wrenches, etc into. What it does is coat the handle to provide electrical insulation, more comfort for your hand, chip/scratch protection, etc. Now my theroy is to 'paint ' this stuff onto the driver. Its fairly viscous so you'd have to take care not to get to much on the wheel. But if you did you could probably shave/sand off the excess with a sharp X-acto knife. Lastly, it comes in several different colors like red, blue, yellow and black. Its available at electrician's supply warehouses or possibly well stocked automotive supply stores. Again, I never tried this but it sounds like it might work. Kris Kollar ------------- Original Text From: , on 7/11/98 11:38 AM: Hi Roger & list members, Some years back, someone wrote an article in "N Scale" mag, where they illustrated the technique of painting a traction tire onto a metal driver. They suggested flat paint, and a small brush. With the motor on & the drivers turning slowly, touch the paint on with the brush. I've not tried this myself, and I don't remember which issue either (sorry!), so your basically on your own. The author suggested that when the paint wears off, just do it all over again. - Claus > Is there anyone out there who might know where I could get some driver > wheels set up for traction tires? I have tried just sticking Virnex > traction tires on the loco, but they're so thick they almost lift the > other wheels off the track. If a groove could be put in two drivers, > this might solve the situation. -------------------------***{}***------------------------- Claus Schlund (Shop Foreman, Bernal Heights Car & Foundry) Modeling steam-era PRR in N scale - San Francisco, CA Interested in BHC&F products? Check out our no-longer-one-and-only N scale passenger car kit at http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~cschlund/models/pullman.gif ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Jul 98 7:33:08 EDT From: Subject: re: [PRR] Advice re N6-a Kit Content-Length: 3134 I built a Gloorcraft N6a about a year ago. Without a doubt you must use some kind of sealer on the wood before you paint it otherwise the paint will sink in unevenly, you'll get areas where the grain raised and the your paint job will look terrible. Sanding sealer will work (I routinely use Carver Tripp, available at K-mart & Home Depot on my projects). But when I built my N6a I used regular polyurethane. The key is to cut it 50% with paint thinner. If you don't it's too thick and it will cover up some of the wood grain and possibly fill in the scribed siding. I applied three coats of it to every side of every piece of wood. Lightly sand between every coat you apply. Just enough to smooth the wood and take off any "fuzz" (raised grain). To sand the scribed grooves, fold a sharp crease into an 1 1/2" piece of the sand paper you used. Then lightly sand each groove of the sheet siding and use a soft paint brush to clean out the grooves. You can use 000 or 0000 steel wool or like I used an old piece of 400 grit wet/dry sand paper (it was more like 500 or 600 grit). You only want to lightly sand. Keep in mind, since you've sealed the wood regular wood glue won't work since you've prevented the wood glue from penetrating the pores of the wood. You'll now have to use super glue or expoxy to build the kit. You could build the whole kit first with wood glue then apply your sanding sealer/polyurethane later but from my experience it will be MUCH more difficult to sand every side of visible wood. Inevitably you'll miss a spot and won't see it until after you've applied the final coat of paint. One last tip if you use high gloss polyurethane make sure you lightly sand the last coat. Otherwise your top coat of paint may not adhere well to the high gloss surface. Hope this helps. Kris Kollar ------------- Original Text From: Tom Mahon , on 7/13/98 8:19 PM: Greetings, Purchase a Quality Craft (Sic) kit for an N6a. Instructions call for sanding sealer on some of the wood parts. Have not worked with this stuff before and would appreciate guidance/counsel on best method(s) for application and knowing when you've got it the way you need it. I do have the steel wool. I am concerned about using too much and clogging the scribed siding. Looking forward to the replies. Thanks in advance. Tom Mahon ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 04:49:40 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] eBay Watch Content-Length: 666 Item 21202637 PRR? freight car diagrams 1940 Item 21201704 PRR? passenger car diagrams 1940 Each asking $50, each had no bids when I looked. Bob Netzlof _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Jul 98 8:05:48 EDT From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Advice re N6-a Kit Content-Length: 2379 Observation, If you use water when sanding the the final coats suggest you seal every side to prevent the wood from warping or swelling. Kris K ------------- Original Text From: , on 7/13/98 7:14 PM: Dear Tom, Most sanding sealer (we sell Pactra Aerogloss at our store) is applied by brush like clear lacquer. You should be able to thin most brands for airbrushing. I would brush on a light coat and allow to thoroughly dry. Most of it will soak in the the wood's pores. Afterwards, sand with 400 grit paper. After 2nd coat I would use 600 or 800 to keep the finish smooth. Personally I would not use steel wool due to the small hair like pieces having the ability to hide in the wood with out showing(at least until the final painting is done!). As for sand paper, use "wet or dry type" dipped into a bowl of water and applied to the finish. I wouldn't soak the model itself in the bowl. This method allows you to gain a smoother finish than dry sanding. As far as the scribbed siding, apply a thin coat at a time. Since it soaks in, you will have an opportunity to judge how much more will be need to finish the job before the second coat is applied. Use very little pressure on the sand paper. The water will wash the debris away from the sanding grit so that it can do the work will little pressure, leaving the details on the car sides. SSGT York _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Stephen R. Sejda" Subject: Re: [PRR] eBay Heads Up: PRR Passenger Equipment Roster - Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:44:13 -0400 Content-Length: 981 What's missing in the "reprint"? Steve ---------- > From: Jerry > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] eBay Heads Up: PRR Passenger Equipment Roster - 10/1/54Item #21146616 > >This is a great publication because this reprint includes truck class > >information that was not found in the original. > > However, this is not an "all inclusive" roster. > > ----------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton > "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cschlund@sfsu.edu Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 22:52:08 Subject: Re: [PRR] N-Scale Trix Decapods Content-Length: 2708 Hi John, You ahve the correct basic idea. here is some info on the Trix N-scale 2-10-0 in the NTRAK Steam Resource book, but it seems you basically already have all the ideas that you would gain from it anyway. BTW, the book documents several N-scale PRR steam kitbashes - H-class locos, F-class locos, the M1, the G5, all these classes are covered with others experiences in terms of kitbashing them. Not bad, all this in one book! A few years ago, a company named Camden & Amboy made a Trix 2-10-0 upgrade kit. It included a new loco shell casting with some added detail parts, a coast-to-coast tender, and trucks for the tender. Alas, they are out of business, and I lacked the forethought to buy more than one of these kits back then. Proves once more, with respect to model railroad equipment, that if you see it and you want it you should buy it NOW! Who knows if it will be there tomorrow. PS: I plan on trying the Model Railroader 2-10-2 conversion some day as well. - Claus Claus Schlund (Shop Foreman, Bernal Heights Car & Foundry) Modeling steam-era PRR in N scale San Francisco, CA Interested in BHC&F products? Check out our no-longer-one-and-only N scale passenger car kit at http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~cschlund/models/pullman.gif > I recently purchased a pair of N-Scale Trix Decapods, with the thought > of modifying them into I-1's. I found the old MRR article on making > them into 2-10-2's but wondered if anyone had ever tried the 2-10-0 > modification. > > Looks like what needs to be done includes the following: > > 1. Move the front of the boiler back about two scale feet. > > 2. Replace the pilot, maybe with one from an 0-8-0. > > 3. Modify the cylinders and steam pipe so they match up. Again, maybe > the cylinders from an 0-8-0 would work. > > 4. Modify the piping, bell, headlight, and other boiler details to > match the I-1. > > Well, at least, it's already got a Belpaire boiler. > > Thanks, > > John Drye -------------------------***{}***------------------------- Claus Schlund (Shop Foreman, Bernal Heights Car & Foundry) Modeling steam-era PRR in N scale - San Francisco, CA Interested in BHC&F products? Check out our no-longer-one-and-only N scale passenger car kit at http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~cschlund/models/pullman.gif ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Altoona Photos Date: Tue, 14 Jul 98 11:29:56 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 724 Any photos online of the old Altoona passenger station and trianshed? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Stephen R. Sejda" Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg GG-1 Photo Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:04:00 -0400 Content-Length: 607 Greetings to the Group, Here's an online photo of GG-1 #4859 for those of you who couldn't make it down to platform level at Harrisburg Station. Follow this link: http://www.railfan.net/railpix/ABPR/july98/07-02-98/gg-1.jpg Enjoy! Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:19:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Vagel Charles Keller Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Pass. Pilots on Scale F's Content-Length: 1019 Excerpts from mail: 14-Jul-98 PRR-Talk Digest - 07/14/98 by "PRR-Talk"@dsop.com Kris Kollar asked about passenger pilots on F's: > .. just one of the 'things' that the PRR did? And are there any kit > manufactures that provide this pilot with there locomotives or does it > always have to be an after market add-on? > Kris, I have never seen a F-unit model that came w/ the passenger pilot out of the box. I used a Details West casting in converting my Athearn shell. It's a soft metal casting that can be easily "adjusted" to conform to whatever irregularities exist between manufacturer's shells. Regards, Vagel Keller CMU ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:27:00 -0400 From: Stan Feldman Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg GG-1 Photo Content-Length: 1198 Stephen R. Sejda wrote: > > Greetings to the Group, > > Here's an online photo of GG-1 #4859 for those of you who couldn't make it > down to platform level at Harrisburg Station. Follow this link: > > http://www.railfan.net/railpix/ABPR/july98/07-02-98/gg-1.jpg > > Enjoy! > > Steve > Steve; Nice picture. Another image of thr GG-1 from 1994 can be seen at, http://www.trainweb.com/railpix/g4859a.jpg Stan *********************************************************** STAN'S RAILPIX-- Railroad Photo Gallery ! http://www.trainweb.com/railpix ****************************************************** Visit my * NEW * What's New page, http://www.trainweb.com/railpix/new.html *********************************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Jul 98 20:51:20 Central Daylight Time From: Barry X29Peltier Subject: [PRR] PRR COLORS Content-Length: 1317 Pennsy folks, I've been watching the input for painting suggestions for using acrylic paints. I also like them a lot for the greater safety factor and their excellant coverage. Maybe it was a fluke, but I was able to get a reasonably close match to the photo of the parlor car Mask and Wig Club (page 20 Pennst Color Guide I) using Accuflex?Modelflex Light Oxide and Soo Maroon. As luck would have it I lost my note on the ratio of mix, but as no two Pennsy cars seemed the same color in these photos I guess it's something to try again, hit and miss. Maybe my eye isn't all that good at judging tones and hues, but I'm having an awful time trying to match the freshly painted X29 on page 72 of the color guide. Oh well, keep at it I guess. By the way, I haven't used Polyscale to any great extent yet, but they seem to offer some excellant colors. But what's the best thinner for airbrushing with this brand? thanks, Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 00:55:02 EDT Subject: [PRR] Geometry car on AC Line.. Content-Length: 704 As Steve a.k.a. ZOO Tower sez: 'Heads Up !!' For those interested, the Geometry Car is **programmed** to run over the AC Line on this Thursday.....the plan is for it to 'ride' on trains #4605 to AC, and be drilled over to 'ride' back on train #4612. This move was delayed once before, so no whining if they change it again, please. Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 01:26:27 EDT Subject: [PRR] roof antenna Content-Length: 650 Greetings everyone, Question :In the July photo of "Great American RR Calendar" they show a pair of PRR E8's on Horseshoe curve in mid sixties. I noticed neither unit has roof antenna. Did PRR do away with them before this photo was taken or is there another explanation. Thanks!!! Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] roof antenna Date: Wed, 15 Jul 98 05:53:34 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1506 On 7/15/98 1:26 AM, STEVEGG1@aol.com (STEVEGG1@aol.com) wrote: >Question :In the July photo of "Great American RR Calendar" they show a pair >of PRR E8's on Horseshoe curve in mid sixties. I noticed neither unit has >roof >antenna. Did PRR do away with them before this photo was taken or is there >another explanation. Thanks!!! While removal is one possibility, another is that they never had them! I know for a fact that only half of the BP60 "Centipedes" had trainphones installed. This is because they typically were semi-permanently lashed as A-A consists. Only the lead unit would need the trainphone. A trainphone in the second would be redundant. Once trainphone was replaced, these BP60's could occassionaly be seen as a pair of A's with no trainphones or a pair with two trainphones...however maintenance had relashed them! It is possible that the same happened on the E8's you see in the photo. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:48:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] roof antenna Content-Length: 899 In a message dated 98-07-15 01:42:30 EDT, Steve writes: << Question :In the July photo of "Great American RR Calendar" they show a pair of PRR E8's on Horseshoe curve in mid sixties. I noticed neither unit has roof antenna. Did PRR do away with them before this photo was taken or is there another explanation >> By the time of the photo they would not have been of any use. They appear to be removed and it looks like (although not a good camera angle) at least some of the antenna brackets are still there. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 07:43:58 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] thinning Poly scale (was PRR COLORS) Content-Length: 1998 >By the way, I haven't used Polyscale to any great extent yet, but they >seem to offer some excellant colors. But >what's the best thinner for airbrushing with this brand? >thanks Barry, I thin Polly Scale with Poly S thinner. Apparently you can use distilled water, but the Polly S thinner has some other ingredients (I think there might be some alcohol, and a wetting agent of some kind. If you do thin paints with water, adding a drop of PhotoFlo or dish soap is often reccomended. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great literary works in Braille. ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "N Campbell" Subject: Re: [PRR] roof antenna Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:24:48 -0400 Content-Length: 751 Jerry and Steve, All of the E8s were delivered with the trainphone installed. In the early to mid 60s the PRR changed to high band radios and the traimphones were removed then. The BH60s always ran in pairs so there was only the need for one unit to have them. For evindence of trainphone removal on PRR engines in the 60s check out the brackets on the EF 30 at Strasburg. Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] fwd: Ft. Wayne coaling tower Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:13:34 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 997 Picked out of rec.models.railroad. ------- Forwarded Message From: "Charles R. Beebe" Newsgroups: rec.models.railroad Subject: Need Picturues of Pennsyl coaling station in Fort Wayne Indiana Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:43:40 -0700 A friend of mine is modeling the Fort Wanye Indiana area in HO scale. There use to be a coaling station over the Pennsy tracks. We can not find any pictures of it to use for modeling it. Does anyone knows who I can contact by mail or by internet to get pictures. Please respond by e-mail to cbeebe@netnitco.net Thanks in advance ------- End of Forwarded Message ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Sep 1956 01:37:49 +0000 From: jerry@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Interesting item on eBay web site item#21374884: The Content-Length: 1258 I saw this item for sale at eBay, the world's largest personal trading community, and thought that you might be interested. Title of item: The Official PULLMAN-STANDARD Library v.4 PRR Seller: ronaldgp@onlinemac.com Starts: 07/14/98 21:13:37 PDT Ends: 07/21/98 21:13:37 PDT Price: Currently $10.50 To bid the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=21374884 Item Description: The Official PULLMAN-STANDARD Library v.4 PRR by W. David Randall & William M. Ross. 165 pages of drawings and photos of the lightweight passenger car fleet built by Pullman for the Standard Railroad of the World. Successful bidder to pay $5 shipping to US addresses, actual for foreign. Check or money order in US funds only. Please allow time for checks to clear. Thanks for bidding! Visit eBay, the world's largest Personal Trading Community at http://www.ebay.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 17:19:02 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Enola area information Content-Length: 900 At the time of the 1985 O Scale National meet in Hershey, Pa., I stayed at a motel in Marysville, overlooking the Enola engine terminal. The attached restaurant had a railroad motif which included an O scale diorama of an 19th century scene credited to Ed Alexander. I have been told the motel and restaurant are no longer there. Does anyone know if this is so, and what happened to the diorama? The editor of the magazine O Scale News - 48/Ft is looking for information on this or a related aspect of Ed's work. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 19:05:08 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Enola area information Content-Length: 1947 Stephen Bartlett wrote: > > The > attached restaurant had a railroad motif which included an O scale > diorama of an 19th century scene credited to Ed Alexander. I have been told the motel and restaurant are no longer there. Does anyone know if this is so, and what happened to the diorama? There's still a hotel -- the Quality Inn Enola -- but indeed, it's correct that the adjacent Summerdale Junction restaurant burned down. The small saddletank steam locomotive next to it was sold off and trucked away. The facility was replaced by a fast-food place (Roy Rogers at first, maybe it's something else by now). Story is that many of the railroad items inside were removed prior to the fire for (perhaps) cleaning/restoration; can't vouch for the accuracy of that. These included Don Wood photos and Grif Teller PRR calendars, among other items. Also, the owner who had overseen the furnishing of the restaurant with a railroad theme died of a heart attack about the same time, perhaps even sometime before the fire. The Harrisburg NRHS chapter used to meet there but after awhile the group grew too large and the setting became too noisy with other patrons -- especially when it came time for the program of the evening. Food was reasonable but service, at least for groups, was notoriously slow. Sorry, I was in there many times for both NRHS business and on personal visits and I don't remember any diorama. Somewhere I'm sure I still have a menu with the restaurant's logo, which featured a K4. Dan Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Galatians 2:20 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Enola area information Date: Thu, 16 Jul 98 19:06:05 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1280 On 7/16/98 5:19 PM, Stephen Bartlett (sbartlet@capecod.net) wrote: >At the time of the 1985 O Scale National meet in Hershey, Pa., I stayed >at a motel in Marysville, overlooking the Enola engine terminal. The >attached restaurant had a railroad motif which included an O scale >diorama of an 19th century scene credited to Ed Alexander. I have been >told the motel and restaurant are no longer there. Does anyone know if >this is so, and what happened to the diorama? The editor of the >magazine O Scale News - 48/Ft is looking for information on this or a >related aspect of Ed's work. Hotel still there, I believe, but restaurant burned down some time ago. Was in Enola, not Marysville. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: David Carey Subject: [PRR] CT1000E Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 18:11:36 -0600 Content-Length: 662 For the few people on this list that don't already have one, a CT1000E is listed for sale as eBay # 21085638, bid ending 7/19/98 @ 20:04. I put in a bid on this item and almost immediately afterwards was declared high bidder on another CT1000E, so I'll be very happy if someone outbids me. GDC ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 21:09:39 +0000 From: "R. Vogel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Geometry car on AC Line.. Content-Length: 1329 What is the geometry car? Is this the same car that is in the color guide to freight and passenger equipment (page 127), a modern variation, or something else entirely? Antrak I presume. - Bob Vogel PRRSignals@aol.com wrote: > As Steve a.k.a. ZOO Tower sez: 'Heads Up !!' > > For those interested, the Geometry Car is **programmed** to run over the AC > Line on this Thursday.....the plan is for it to 'ride' on trains #4605 to AC, > and be drilled over to 'ride' back on train #4612. > > This move was delayed once before, so no whining if they change it again, > please. > Bill > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] KC Site Search Date: Fri, 17 Jul 98 08:38:51 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1572 I've added an exciting (IMHO) feature to "Keystone Crossings": Each page now has a "Site Search" entry box and button at the top. Every page on the site is text-indexed for quick search and retrieval. The "search results" page looks very much as you would get via Yahoo, Alta Vista, or another Internet search engine. All my pages previously had the same title ("Jerry Britton's PRR Pages") but I am in the process of changing them all -- about 50 to go -- so they are unique when they show up in the search results. The initial text of the page, as well as the date modified and file size are also provided. Let me know what you think. This same functionality is available for anyone who opts to have my server serve their web site. UNRELATED: Last night I upgraded the router/gateway software for my domain. Reliability seems to have been improved, and throughput seems greater. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Anyone Out Here? Date: Fri, 17 Jul 98 11:06:26 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1006 Sniff, sniff... Do you guys all leave me in here alone? Is everyone on vacation? Dag, 250+ subscribers and only five posts yesterday and one today (mine!). Okay, did you hear about Norfolk Southern's plan to "daylight" the Allegheny Mountains and bypass Horseshoe Curve? That oughta get a rise out of y'all, and it's not even April! ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:36:43 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Anyone Out Here? Content-Length: 650 Gee, Jerry, if it's e-mail you want . . . We can all get out our Official Railway Equipment Registers and start typing in messages made up of PRR freight car rosters -- by the number -- to send you. I'll take X31. H25, anyone? :-) Dan Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Galatians 2:20 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 10:55:19 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Anyone Out Here? Content-Length: 748 Do you guys all leave me in here alone? Is everyone on vacation? Well tomorrow I leave for the NMRA National Convention in Kansas City. I was wondering myself if there were problems and nothing was coming through. I see on Withers Publication website under future projects for books there is a listing for Pennsy Electrics. Maybe Dan Cupper could tell us a little more. Randy ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:38:49 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Anyone Out Here? Content-Length: 845 By the way, I hope I can put a plug in for myself. If anyone is going to be at the NMRA National Convention I will be there at the show selling items. We do have the new Pennsy video from Clear Block Video. I think all SPF's will enjoy the video. I myself found out something new about the Pennsy like did anybody know they had leased WABASH Trainmasters. There is quite a bit of steam on the video also. So look me up at the show my booth is R&S RAIL STUFF. Randy ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] 1954 Philly Division Employee Timetable Date: Fri, 17 Jul 98 12:37:46 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 870 Does anyone have a 1954 (Sept. 26 issue prefered) employee timetable for the Philadelphia Division that I could borrow for scanning purposes? Same for Middle Division also sought, but a lesser priority. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 15:35:07 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Withers electric book Content-Length: 1062 Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com wrote: > > I see on Withers Publication website under future projects for books there is a listing for Pennsy Electrics. Maybe Dan Cupper could tell us a little more. > Randy Well, *a little* is about all there is to share at the moment. The book is in the pipeline along with several others, some of them *much* closer to release. Not that it'll mean much to PRR fans, but the closest is a GP20/SD24 book (these were the first EMD turbocharged four-axle and six-axle models). On the PRR electric book, we are gathering material, so if anyone has something that he thinks is particularly publication-worthy, feel free to contact me or Paul Withers. Dan ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Stephen R. Sejda" Subject: [PRR] Withers Publications Website Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:29:33 -0400 Content-Length: 828 Hi Randy, Do you happen to have the web address for Withers? Thanks in advance. Steve Sejda ---------- > From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com > To: Jerry ; prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Anyone Out Here? > Date: Friday, July 17, 1998 11:55 AM > > I see on Withers Publication website under future projects for books there > is a listing for Pennsy Electrics. Maybe Dan Cupper could tell us a little > more. > > Randy ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:39:44 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Daylight...Yeah right!LOL Content-Length: 907 Hi Jerry... I've been to KS crossings and i like the find boxes you've put there. there a big help. As for daylighting the mountains....Yeah right and there gonna daylight the B&P tunnels in Baltimore too. heheheh Would that be in the same category as a tunnel under the Chesapeake Bay for Delmarva trains? It could have happened...For those who want to know more i'll say something later. Til Later H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:22:42 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Withers Publications Website Content-Length: 409 Steve: It's www.witherspub.com. Dan Cupper ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Employee Timetables Date: Fri, 17 Jul 98 20:15:20 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1218 I didn't receive any responses regarding my request for a 1954 ETT for either the Philadelphia or Middle Divisions. That leads me to a hypothesis that not all divisions updated their ETTs at the same time. For instance: I have a Maryland Division ETT #7 dated Sept. 26, 1954. I have a Philadelphia Terminal Division ETT #8 dated Sept. 26, 1954. Perhaps by using the numbers (versions) of the ETT's, we can find out which ETT's were in effect when. So, if you have any ETT's for the Philadelphia or Middle Divisions after 1940, please send me their date and #. I'll collate the responses and report back to the list. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J. Brandon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Anyone Out Here? Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 20:25:58 -0400 Content-Length: 1691 Jerry, Do you know when construction is to start? I'll have to get up there to see that. Should be some engineering feat!! JB -----Original Message----- From: Jerry To: PRR-Talk Date: Friday, July 17, 1998 11:20 AM Subject: [PRR] Anyone Out Here? >Sniff, sniff... > >Do you guys all leave me in here alone? Is everyone on vacation? > >Dag, 250+ subscribers and only five posts yesterday and one today (mine!). > >Okay, did you hear about Norfolk Southern's plan to "daylight" the >Allegheny Mountains and bypass Horseshoe Curve? > >That oughta get a rise out of y'all, and it's not even April! ;-) > >------------------------------------------------------------------ >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com >Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com >Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > >Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com >The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: [PRR] Employee Timetables (fwd) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 20:54:25 EDT Content-Length: 1302 > I didn't receive any responses regarding my request for a 1954 ETT for > either the Philadelphia or Middle Divisions. That leads me to a > hypothesis that not all divisions updated their ETTs at the same time. You are correct, not all divisions updated at the same time. My own incomplete experience suggests that Lines West in particular often updated separately. > For instance: > I have a Maryland Division ETT #7 dated Sept. 26, 1954. > I have a Philadelphia Terminal Division ETT #8 dated Sept. 26, 1954. > Perhaps by using the numbers (versions) of the ETT's, we can find out > which ETT's were in effect when. So, if you have any ETT's for the > Philadelphia or Middle Divisions after 1940, please send me their date > and #. I'll collate the responses and report back to the list. The numbering will lead you astray. On "several" occasions they gave up the numbering and started again at ETT #1. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 10:13:49 +0100 From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] PRR colour matching Content-Length: 2623 The recent postings about matching PRR liveries has set the old brain cells into action again with another query. Has anyone matched the various PRR colours for rolling stock, buildings etc., to a set of universal colour standards? In the UK we used to have a series of British Colour Standards and a number of railway societies were able to quote their particular railway's schemes in terms of these. The British Colour Standards seems to have been out of use for a number of years, but the priciple should still apply. I am thinking of something like the colour tint charts which are used in the printing industry. The charts define over 1500 colours in terms of their yellow, cyan and magenta content and, I presume, have world- wide application. Looking, for instance, at the colour patch for PRR Tuscan Red in Pennsylvania Railroad...Passenger Car Painting and Lettering, the colour tint chart matches it atc 70% Yellow + 90% Magenta + 80% Cyan to my eyes. If anyone has matched up PRR colours and would care to list them in these terms it would be a great help to us over here. Though all info would be valuable I am thinking particularly of the paint schemes used on buildings and structures as we have to rely on the vagaries of colour photography where, invariably, the photographer has concentrated on the loco or train, and buildings etc. appear in the background. Regards, JHW P.S. One of our members from the Newcastle MRS has taken himself off to the NMRA Convention in Kansas City. As he has trouble looking after himself in his own country at times :-) I wonder if anyone would look out for him. He answers to the name Philip Dove, dark hair, glasses, immediately recognisable by his accent.....he's still undecided which railroad to model so is open to a bit of "persuasion". America's loss is our gain (for a week or so)! -- John H. Wright Washington Tyne & Wear England Visit the Newcastle & District Model Railway Society's web site at: http://www.jhwright.demon.co.uk/index.htm Descriptions and views of our layouts in: Z, N, HO (USA), HO (Continental), OO, P4, O Gauge and On16.5 Plus members' layouts and details of our exhibitions, news and events. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 18:02:40 EDT Subject: [PRR] 57 Plans Book Content-Length: 614 I have seen the above book on MOW and other structures in stores and at swap meets and on lists for years. Now when I would like one, haven't seen one. I tried a few used book stores. Any other suggestions as to a source for this book? Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 18:18:39 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] 57 Plans Book Content-Length: 502 Bob, I bought mine through a rec.models.railroad posting. You might keep an eye on Ebay auction. Ebay has an items wanted listing. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 21:55:55 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Enola restaurant Content-Length: 1894 Hello folks... I saw the posts about the restaurant and wanted to comment on what i remember.... I went to the same restaurant back in the mid-seventies...My dad took us on a railroad sight seeing trip and that evening we were in Enola so he took us to the restaurant there. Apparently the railroad crews liked to eat there. For one the old man knew about the place (and he was a PC brakeman at the time) and i remember seeing crews come in while we were there...I knew some were railroad crews because some had their ETT's,electric lanterns and road bags with them. Some even got extra coffee while there (i guess either for the long ride home or for work.) I rememeber a train that was up on the wall, although it was'nt running while we were there. I also remember all the railroad stuff that was all over the place...I thought it was the neatest restaurant i had ever been to. I don't remember the food though. I guess all the railroadana took my mind off of it. I also remember that the restuarant was'nt too brightly lit inside..Then again it was just getting dark outside right after we got there. We had a table that kinda overlooked the yard...you could see it through the windows... One other thing i remember was that the place was on the west side of the road that ran next to the yard. Well this is about all i remember. Til Later H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 22:32:28 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] ETT's Content-Length: 2522 Hello You All.... Here's what i have in the way of ETT's PRR ETT Philadelphia Region No.3 of April 28th 1957 with updates through Oct. 1957 PC ETT Eastern Region No.2 of Dec.1st 1968 I mentioned it to Jerry that if anyone can contact Ivan Frantz from the N.C. Chapter PRRT&HS he might be able to give more info for timetables. A while back i had wrote him about info for the Northern Central and he made copies from pages of a old Maryland Div. ETT of 1947. He also has other PRR ETT's. On a similar note.... I have managed to find a Engineers timebook. this was for a engineer either on the Pittsburg Div. or Middle Div. It even has his PRR pay stubs for the entire year of 1947. He must have worked between Altoona and Pittsburg as it lists places he started and stopped working from. It lists the train numbers,engine numbers(both steam and diesel) some of the names of conductors he worked with,the time he started work and the time he got off,what he made for the trip,dates worked, deadheading,even mentions when he bought a new car! As a example i give one of the entries below..... June 24th Train ED4 engines no's 4543 and 6958 went on duty at CW (?) at 8:55 am ,relieved at A (Altoona ?) at 6:10 pm miles 156 ,amount earned $13.42 then.....a return trip? June 25th Train NL1 engine no. 6939 went on duty at A (Altoona ?) at 2:40 pm,relieved at CW (?) at 10:30pm miles 158, amount earned $13.59 If nothing else it gives you a idea of what engines were used on a given train and at what time it ran that day on that division in 1947 Not all of these are for freight trains either...there are some passenger trains too(but not many) This is something he would have carried in his road bag on the engine, and back and forth to work. Let me know if anyone of you are interested...It gives the entire year of one PRR engineman for 1947. Til Later H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 11:45:20 -0500 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] Re: Daylighting Horseshoe Curve? Content-Length: 1032 So Jerry writes: >Okay, did you hear about Norfolk Southern's plan to "daylight" the >Allegheny Mountains and bypass Horseshoe Curve? > >That oughta get a rise out of y'all, and it's not even April! ;-) ===== Don't be so sure about that, Jerry. I recall a scheme back in the 50s to dig a deepwater channel from Atlantic to Pacific in place of the Panama Canal by using multiple hydrogen bombs. They do have all those surplus Titan 2s - - - - - - Sweet dreams, Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ======== ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 14:17:42 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Re: Daylighting Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 1497 Greetings to Jerry & the list: Sorry, Jerry, you're 98 years behind the times. The New York Times, that is. Front-page headline of Thursday, April 19, 1900: TO ABOLISH HORSESHOE CURVE -------------------------- President Cassatt Plans a Straight Line Down the Mountains at Enormous Cost ALTOONA, Penn., April 18.--President A.J. Cassatt of the Pennsylvania Railroad has planned to build a straight line of railway between Gallitzin, at the top of the Allegheny Mountain, to Altoona, the base, cutting the distance from 12 miles to seven. These plans, which are very extensive, do away with the famous horse shoe curve. Tremendous engines of great power could be used on the line without curves, and great speed would be the rule. The improvement will be one of the most prodigious works ever undertaken in the railroad world, and will cost millions of dollars. # # # Dan Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Galatians 2:20 followed by a story about digging a several-mile-long tunnel, which was of course denied by the railroad, which had just finished four-tracking the mountain. True story. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 14:43:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] MARC heritage fleet Content-Length: 1361 Hi, While passing south along the Corridor toward and into DC on Friday, I noticed a number of MARC cars marked at the left end of the letterboard with a small PRR keystone, "MARC Heritage Fleet", and what was presumably the PRR name of the car. The one I remember is "Hamilton Inn". Anyone know anything about this series, what other ex-PRR cars they have, and if any other railroad's cars are so marked in the MARC fleet? Other tidbits from my trip: -North Philadelphia station looks really bad these days, far worse than I remembered. -Saw concrete tie work in progress in mid-Jersey, as well as an Amtrak work train with about a dozen cars of new ties... -Somewhere, I think Philly, I saw a lot along the tracks with a bunch of run-down sheds, and a PRR-painted caboose, i think N5C, but I don't recall. Anyone know details? -Is the ex-Budd plant visible from the corridor? I looked for something which looked right to be it, and saw nothing which jumped out at me... -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 18:48:53 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] MARC heritage fleet Content-Length: 817 Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > -Is the ex-Budd plant visible from the corridor? I looked for something which looked right to be it, and saw nothing which jumped out at me... Hello, Derrick: The former Budd plant is on an ex-Reading line, not the former PRR. Which is why in some early (i.e., PRR) Metroliner publicity photos, you can see Reading-style catenary towers in the background. Dan Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Galatians 2:20 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] MARC heritage fleet Date: Sun, 19 Jul 98 19:18:48 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1303 On 7/19/98 2:43 PM, Derrick J Brashear (shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG) wrote: >While passing south along the Corridor toward and into DC on Friday, I >noticed a number of MARC cars marked at the left end of the letterboard >with a small PRR keystone, "MARC Heritage Fleet", and what was presumably >the PRR name of the car. The one I remember is "Hamilton Inn". Anyone know >anything about this series, what other ex-PRR cars they have, and if any >other railroad's cars are so marked in the MARC fleet? See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/photos/railfest97.html At last year's RailFest in Altoona, the excursion train was all MARC equipment. The Downingtown Inn was there, and the PRR-Talk group was seated in the New Castle Inn. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 20:37:36 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] MARC fleet Content-Length: 886 Hi All... Look in the Spring 1995 issue of the "Keystone" (Vol.28,No.1) it gives some info on the Marc cars. It goes on to say that three of them were.... Braddock Inn (PRR No.8246),Collinsville Inn (PRR No.8254) and Norristown Inn (PRR No.8275). These cars were former 21 roomette sleepers converted to coaches during the sixties. These cars are probably former New Jersey Transit cars. Til Later H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 20:43:11 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] early diesel service Content-Length: 1033 Hi again Folks.... Heres a question for the group..... In the PRR's early diesel days...say about 1946....how were their early diesel facilities set up? Were they just a tank car for diesel fuel and a pump to pump it into the fuel tank of the engines... or did they have something already inplace when they began to arrive in mass. I recall reading a article in a old Trains magazine (perhaps the one featuring the E-7 ?) That they used a tank car at Detroit and Harrisburg. Anyone know what was what? Til Later H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 20:41:17 -0400 From: "David J. Wartell" Subject: Re: [PRR] 1954 Philly Division Employee Timetable Content-Length: 788 Gee, you can't even take a vacation around here. I don't have 1954 ETT's, but I have 1953 for Philadelphia & Middle Divisions. The date is Sept. 27, 1953 on both. >Does anyone have a 1954 (Sept. 26 issue prefered) employee timetable for >the Philadelphia Division that I could borrow for scanning purposes? > >Same for Middle Division also sought, but a lesser priority. Thanks. Dave Wartell djwartel@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:17:05 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Geometry car on AC Line.. Content-Length: 1458 In a message dated 98-07-16 21:25:23 EDT, you write: << What is the geometry car? Is this the same car that is in the color guide to freight and passenger equipment (page 127), a modern variation, or something else entirely? Antrak I presume. - Bob Vogel >> ***sorry for the delay...busy weekends in summer..this particular car is Amtrak #10002 (?) and is a rebuilt amfleet coach ( from a wreck ), with full viewing windows on one end, and instrumentation for determining track structure / alignment / cross-elevation, etc. Can anyone assist with car # verification and details..?? The pictures in that I saw in "Color Guide" show a PRR Clearance car ( with the extendable fingers ) which was utilized to determine physical clearances along the right of way. They 'mapped' the system in order to determine routings for "bay-o-bab" or high & wide shipments. I do not know of a modern equivalent of the 'finger car'. The move got botched as the deadhead train early in the AM brought the car to AC, but it appeared that the car was facing the wrong way......bill*** bill* ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 22:06:45 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] 1954 Philly Division Employee Timetable Content-Length: 423 ***I have April edition, if you cannot find the fall one...bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 22:13:57 EDT Subject: [PRR] Any other CNJ / Steam fans..?? Content-Length: 799 **There is a meet / picnic for the "Veterans of the CNJ", and for members of the CNJ Historical Society on Sunday, August 9. It will be held at NJ Live Steamers, with many operating engines - from camelbacks to pacifics...and even some PRR. Enjoy riding behind coal fired locos in 1998 !!! And - for my signal group - a working signal sytem..!! ( albeit cl type....) Please contact me for further info, if interested......Bill**** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 01:15:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] MARC heritage fleet Content-Length: 747 On Sun, 19 Jul 1998, Jerry wrote: > See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/photos/railfest97.html > > At last year's RailFest in Altoona, the excursion train was all MARC > equipment. The Downingtown Inn was there, and the PRR-Talk group was > seated in the New Castle Inn. I didn't care for the MARC equipment since every other seat was not well-sitauted relative to windows... -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Steam Loco Servicing Date: Mon, 20 Jul 98 09:55:39 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1185 I'm designing an engine terminal based on the Harrisburg, Pa. On the plans published in Rails Northeast, the machine shop attached to the roundhouse has a track servicing it. It is likely that flats and box cars brought in and removed parts via this spur. However, the diagram also shows a "lye vat". Perhaps you older folks can shed some light on this, as I'm only 35...wasn't lye used as a degreaser or something? If so, would "clean lye" be delivered by rail and "dirty lye" removed? If so, by what type of car? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 09:24:45 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam Loco Servicing Content-Length: 2027 >However, the diagram also shows a "lye vat". Perhaps you older folks can >shed some light on this, as I'm only 35...wasn't lye used as a degreaser >or something? If so, would "clean lye" be delivered by rail and "dirty >lye" removed? If so, by what type of car? Jerry, Entire locomotives would be lifted up and dipped into the lye vat! What a neat feature to model! There are some photos in not to recently past issues of the Keystone of such operations occuring. I'll try to rmember to look up the issue tonight Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great literary works in Braille. ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam Loco Servicing Date: Mon, 20 Jul 98 11:00:18 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1730 On 7/20/98 10:24 AM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >Entire locomotives would be lifted up and dipped into the lye vat! What a >neat feature to model! There are some photos in not to recently past >issues of the Keystone of such operations occuring. I'll try to rmember to >look up the issue tonight The one at Harrisburg was definitely not that large. Based on the drawing vs. relative objects of known sizes, I'd say maybe 8' square...maybe a little larger. Don't have any vertical dimensions nor any idea what it looked like. All I know is that it was attached to the "loading dock" on the "machine shop" attached to the roundhouse. Assume the loading dock was flat car/box car height. Probably had a small crane to raise lower things into the vat. Yes, interesting thing to model! Anyone have photos of the machine shop area at Harrisburg? For that matter, the entire facility? (I have the Rails Northeast issue on shop improvements [steam] and the Pennsy Journal issue on shop improvements [diesel].) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Bowser H9 Date: Mon, 20 Jul 98 11:18:03 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 757 Which subclass of the H9 does the Bowser model best portray? Is it and its tender accurate overall? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:24:43 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam Loco Servicing Content-Length: 2226 Jerry, Here at Altoona, they lifted the entire locomotive and set it in the heated lye vat. You are correct, as to its use to remove grease from the running gear. I'm guessing big time here but I would think that lye in a dry form would be mixed with hot water to the desired concentration as opposed to brining it in already mixed in a tank car. As to disposal, considering the problems here, around both the car shops and Juniata Works, they probably just dumped it in a pit somewhere. Several of those pits have been discovered in the past decade. In fact, American Premier Underwriters Inc (what's left of the PC) agreed to pay the cleanup costs of one of them between Altoona and Bellwood. They had been fighting it saying they shouldn't be held responsible for what the PRR did. They agreed to pay the clean costs now the that it costs less to do the cleanup than a court fight would cost. It seems the costs have significantly gotten cheaper to do the clean up work. So to be true to the prototype, just poke a hole in your scenery, dump in some Draino and cover with some ground foam. Sounds like a good MR article to me. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 09:55 AM 7/20/98 -0400, you wrote: I'm designing an engine terminal based on the Harrisburg, Pa. On the plans published in Rails Northeast, the machine shop attached to the roundhouse has a track servicing it. It is likely that flats and box cars brought in and removed parts via this spur. However, the diagram also shows a "lye vat". Perhaps you older folks can shed some light on this, as I'm only 35...wasn't lye used as a degreaser or something? If so, would "clean lye" be delivered by rail and "dirty lye" removed? If so, by what type of car? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:26:55 EDT Subject: [PRR] "Aleck" Johnston Cassatt... Content-Length: 1176 ***Since Dan mentioned A.J. in reference to daylighting the 'Curve, I thought that I would mention an excellent book...."End of the Line; Alexander J. Cassatt and The Pennsylvania Railroad" by Patricia J. Davis, Publ: Neale Watson Academic Publications, Inc. NY, 1978, 208 pages, hardbound. An old PRR pal helped me find a copy, after I commented upon A.J.'s sister Mary Cassatt getting her own postage stamp ( 23 cents, 2nd etc.oz. ) for her artistic works, while A.J. received much less acclaim for running / building / expanding our favorite RR. He was the only RR exec. to have his RR conquer the Hudson River 'barrier' with the tunnels into NYC. A fantastic historical read for PRR fans. << Harold, are you ready for a new book..??>>> To obtain, try Amazon Books, mxbf, etc.......Bill*** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:04:48 -0400 From: Stan Feldman Subject: [PRR] TV-Tonight:Trains-Unlimited Content-Length: 1215 Hello All: On tonight at 10:00 PM EDT on The History Channel Trains Unlimited--The American Streamliner. Even today, streamliners look like futuristic machines. Yet they came out of Depression-era America when passenger defection to cars and planes pushed railroads to the brink of bankruptcy. Catch a ride on a Zephyr, Champion, or Super Chief; eat a five-course meal; and dream of the days when the rail's beauty united with the ultimate in speed. *********************************************************** STAN'S RAILPIX-- Railroad Photo Gallery ! http://www.trainweb.com/railpix ****************************************************** Visit my * NEW * What's New page, http://www.trainweb.com/railpix/new.html *********************************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Stephen R. Sejda" Subject: [PRR] I Will Not Repeat My Messages Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:02:02 -0400 Content-Length: 541 Is anybody else having their mailbox filled with repeat PRR-Talk messages? My "Delete" button is getting a workout! Steve Sejda P.S. - I only sent this message once..... Honest. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Listmaster Report (was Re: [PRR] I Will Not Repeat My Messages) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 98 13:34:11 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1656 On 7/20/98 12:02 PM, Stephen R. Sejda (srsejda@jaguarsystems.com) wrote: >Is anybody else having their mailbox filled with repeat PRR-Talk messages? >My "Delete" button is getting a workout! I did get a repeating messages report several days ago, from an AOL user. This report was discounted, as AOL is a frequent headache to listmasters. However, today I began receiving reports from others. Clearly something is amiss, but it is very hard to determine the source. * The listserver log is not indicating repeat sends * The digest is not seeing duplicate posts * My account (jerry@dsop.com) is not seeing duplicate posts * My account at work (another domain) is not seeing duplicate posts * There are very few bounces occuring these days, and those are from full mailboxes Regarding the latter...These shouldn't get back through to the list, and if they did, then everyone would see them, as well as the digest. Please be patient. I'll look into it further this evening. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Pottstown PA Area This Saturday Date: Mon, 20 Jul 98 14:04:28 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 916 This Saturday (7/25), I may be stranded in the Pottstown, Pa., area for a few hours. Will actually be in Royersford, halfway between Pottstown and King of Prussia. Anyone know of any train shows, open houses, or good hobby shops that I could check out? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: [PRR] PRR web page Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 14:27:17 -0400 Content-Length: 1166 I am about to proceed with the construction of a PRR realated webpage. I seek contributors, cause at the moment I have NOTHING!!!! I will be greatly appreciative if you could help me with the following: Photos, if you have any PRR photos scanned, please send me some. With the photos, can you tell me the year the photo was taken and the location? Along with a breif description? Stories, if you are an ex-PRR employee, or were a regular PRR passenger, I would love it if you could e-mail me storys. Dosent have to be big, memorable experiences, a short description of your job with the RR........ Info, if you have general info on PRR divisions please mail me, I am not at all knowedgeble on PRR operations west of Pittsburg either. Thanks in advance!! Josh Trower tktrower@earthlink.net ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Coach Yard Location at Harrisburg Date: Mon, 20 Jul 98 14:45:16 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1978 Trying to establish exact location of the coach yard tracks at Harrisburg, Pa. I know they were east of the station. I also know that tracks 1 & 2 turned west to the Cumberland Valley Bridge to send/receive trains on the Northern Central Branch. Station tracks 3 & 4 had a crossover at their east end that could also access this route, which is how the Railway Express Agency was accessed (I believe). If I am correct, this westerly route had a facing point turnout into the REA building fairly quickly, and I believe it had two tracks. Anyone know more about this REA facility...or have photos? Anyway, I have a track chart that shows the convergence of the many passenger tracks into the two mains. To the north of these are the two freight mains (Columbia Branch from ROY). To the south is a siding labeled "0" which I'm guessing is an alternate passenger main. Feeding off the passenger mains, and sitting to the north of them between them and the freight mains, are three sidings. Would have been roughly behind where the old "Gables" building was on Second Street and south of the wye added by the Penn Central. Was this the coach yard? Or was it further south, below Paxton Street, above I-83, in the area of the electric substation where there are (were) some storage tracks? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR web page Date: Mon, 20 Jul 98 15:24:14 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 3369 Thomas, and the list: On 7/20/98 2:27 PM, Thomas K. Trower (tktrower@earthlink.net) wrote: >I am about to proceed with the construction of a PRR realated webpage. I >seek contributors, cause at the moment I have NOTHING!!!! Before beginning a a web site on any topic, you should define what you want it to be. To simply say you want to have a site, but don't have anything to place on it, is a mistake. Define a goal, collect initial material, then go online. To go online with little, people will visit and not come back. Then, you must constantly add or change, or again people will not come back (e.g. PRRT&HS web site until recently). While I bid you success with your own site, if you so elect, perhaps you should consider just being a contributor to one of the existing mega-PRR sites on the net. I consider my "Keystone Crossings" to be a general repository of just about everything, with online searchable rosters; Mark Bej's "Broad Way" emphasizes interlocking diagrams, the Book of Rules, and signalling; Rob Schoenburg's site emphasizes freight operations; and a large site is soon to appear on the Middle Division (I'll let the owner have the glory of introducing it!). While these are all freely accessible sites, you need to ask yourself: Do you want to compete? Can you compete? > >Photos, if you have any PRR photos scanned, please send me some. With the >photos, can you tell me the year the photo was taken and the location? >Along with a breif description? Please do myself and other PRR webmasters a favor: Don't pull images off our site and simply add them to yours. Over time you will offend many folks this way. > >Stories, if you are an ex-PRR employee, or were a regular PRR passenger, I >would love it if you could e-mail me storys. Dosent have to be big, >memorable experiences, a short description of your job with the RR........ Now here could be the emphasis of your site!!! Nobody is doing this, and it could be a whole site, complete with photos of the employees at work! > >Info, if you have general info on PRR divisions please mail me, I am not >at all knowedgeble on PRR operations west of Pittsburg either. "Keystone Crossings" is amassing a lot of Division Employee Timetables. Tom Vondruska is working on a "Lines West" site (How's that coming, Tom?). And, as I said, a Middle Division site is forthcoming. My advice to you and others: If you have something unique to offer, do it, and keep up with it. But don't set up a "me too" site just for the sake of being there. If you don't have a lot of material, work as a contributing author for one of the existing sites. My two cinders. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Reading Terminal in Harrisburg Date: Mon, 20 Jul 98 15:53:18 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 892 Anyone know when the Reading station in Harrisburg was razed? This was located where the current post office is located, on Market Street, and had a pedestrial overpass to the PRR station. Need to know for 1954 modeling purposes. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Coach Yard Location at Harrisburg Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 16:34:47 EDT Content-Length: 648 > Trying to establish exact location of the coach yard tracks at > Harrisburg, Pa. I know they were east of the station. Jerry, some of your questions may be answered by http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/itlk_phl_har_main.html Pick up the map of STATE. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas K. Trower" Subject: [PRR] Employess Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 16:43:46 -0400 Content-Length: 696 Alright: I would like to create a PRR page devoted to those who worked on it. I would like it to contain stories from those who worked for the PRR[and also the PC], your story could just be a paragraph or several pages. If any of you are interested in contributing to such a page please mail me. Josh Trower tktrower@earthlink.net ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 21:02:23 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reading Terminal in Harrisburg Content-Length: 1481 Jerry, I'm not real certian, but didn't one of the Pennsy Journal's have an article on the HBG area, that included the stations. Mine are all boxed and ready for my move. cos Jerry wrote: > Anyone know when the Reading station in Harrisburg was razed? > > This was located where the current post office is located, on Market > Street, and had a pedestrial overpass to the PRR station. > > Need to know for 1954 modeling purposes. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com > Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com > The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 23:50:53 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Reading passenger station in Harrisburg Content-Length: 2037 Jerry wrote: > > Anyone know when the Reading station in Harrisburg was razed? Greetings to Jerry and the List! It was removed about 1960, when -- as you said -- the then-main post office was built. By this time, passenger service was down to a single train a day each way to Lebanon-Reading-Phila./Allentown-NY. RDG built a small joint passenger-freight station in back. It was still standing and functioning as a RDG freight office when I moved to Harrisburg in 1974. It came down shortly after the building was vacated with the coming of Conrail in 1976. Its location is now a parking lot, but you can get an idea of where it stood by looking at the tracks in the pavement where a RDG siding crossed 10th Street -- it was between that point and the post office. > This was located where the current post office is located, on Market > Street, and had a pedestrial overpass to the PRR station. It was an *underpass* and the remnants are still visible in the PRR/Amtrak station. If you go down to platform level and look under some of the the staircases, you can see stairways that go underground. They went down to a pedestrian tunnel that ran perpendicular to the PRR and RDG tracks. So you could arrive in Harrisburg on the Reading from, say, Hershey or Myerstown, then without ever going out onto the street, walk over to catch a train for, say, Chicago, Buffalo, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, etc. If you're thinking that the structural steel skeleton that still stands was once an overpass, it was -- but it was for a mail conveyor, not for pedestrian use. Hope this helps. Dan Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Galatians 2:20 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 04:01:11 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] A Sunbury Division question Content-Length: 2087 Looking at the 1923 CT1000: What appears to be the Main Line of the division departs Sunbury and passes through Catawissa, Nescopeck, Walwallopen, and other places on it's way to Wilkes-Barre. (I think its the main because it has no name in the CT1000.) Q 1: Is that in fact the Main Line of the Sunbury Division? At Nescopeck, the Nescopeck Branch leaves the main and goes through Zenith, Bond, and Tank on it's way to Rock Glen, which is apparently the end of the Nescopeck Branch. At Catawissa, a track departs from the main and passes through Mainville, Scotch Valley, and Mountain Grove on it's way to Rock Glen. (Or is this the main line, and if not, why isn't Mainville called Branchville?) Q 2: What was the name of that track? At Rock Glen the Necopeck Branch and the mystery track join. The track then passes through Gowen, Fern Glen, Derringer, and Gum Run on the way to Tomhicken, where the PRR meets and runs on tracks of the Lehigh Valley. Q 3: Given that the mystery track has a name between Catawissa and Rock Glen, does it keep that name between Rock Glen and Tomhicken, or did it become something else at Rock Glen? Eventually, PRR trains leave the LV, at or near New Boston. The mystery track runs on for some miles, meeting the Schuylkill Division someplace or other (I forget where). Q 4: Whatever name(s) the mystery track had between Catawissa and Tomhicken, is it still called that beyond New Boston, or is it called yet another name? Inquiring minds want to know. Remember, this is all circa 1923. Bob Netzlof _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TAN: G&D Interchange Car Date: Tue, 21 Jul 98 09:58:02 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1208 How many of ya'll HO scalers would be interested in a wooden boxcar kit painted "Gorre & Dephatid" as an interchange car for $14.95? The "G&D", if it doesn't ring a bell immediately, was the late John Allen's masterpiece layout. Putting one of these cars on your layout would be a tribute. By the way, it's pronounced "gorry and defeated"!!! I have an opportunity to purchase these cars at wholesale -- by the dozen. Proceeds would offset list operating costs. There would be three different road numbers available. Anyone interested? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 11:27:33 -0400 Subject: [PRR] I'm back & virus warning! From: staffsgtyork@juno.com (David W. York) Content-Length: 1424 Greetings Earthlings!! Don't take this as bad, but I'm glad the list slowed down this past weekend. Just got back from Chicago where my younger brother graduated from Great Lakes Naval Recruit Training Command. ( Imagine wearing Marine Corps Dress Blues in 90 degree weather for "family pictures"!!!). When I checked the Email, their was only 41 messages instead of the 200 plus I expected. whew! Got information on a new virus out on the web. Don't download a screen saver for the Budweiser Frogs. It is said to wipe out your hard drive or give your password to the down-loadee. Concerning the PRR--Any one in PA know if the D16sb from Delmarva is at the RR Museum of PA or at the Straussburg RR? Wanna go check it out next week before vacation expires. Thanx. Staff Sergeant York USMCR, IRR _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: Re: [PRR] A Sunbury Division question Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:32:41 -0400 Content-Length: 2330 Robert Netzlof wrote: >Looking at the 1923 CT1000: > >What appears to be the Main Line of the division >departs Sunbury and passes through Catawissa, >Nescopeck, Walwallopen, and other places on it's way >to Wilkes-Barre. (I think its the main because it has >no name in the CT1000.) Yes, that's the Main > >Q 1: Is that in fact the Main Line of the Sunbury >Division? > >At Nescopeck, the Nescopeck Branch leaves the main >and goes through Zenith, Bond, and Tank on it's way >to Rock Glen, which is apparently the end of the >Nescopeck Branch. Rock Glen Junction to Nescopeck (7738A in CT1000) is Nescopeck Branch. >At Catawissa, a track departs from the main and >passes through Mainville, Scotch Valley, and Mountain >Grove on it's way to Rock Glen. (Or is this the main >line, and if not, why isn't Mainville called >Branchville?) This is also "Main Line". Sunbury Division had two "mains". This answers Q2,3 and 4 below. The track between Catawissa and Tomhicken and New Boston Junction and the Division Post at Pottsville was also the "Main Line", with trackage rights over the Valley Tomhicken to New Boston Junction. At Pottsville, the Schuylkill Division begins. When the track was cut between a point west of Scotch Valley (Scotch Valley Colliery) and Catawissa, the Rock Glen Junction/Scotch Valley Colliery piece was referred to as the Catawissa Branch. This happened sometime in the 30's and I suspect that the Rock Glen/Catawissa piece (when it was intact) had already been degraded to the "Catawissa Branch". >Q 2: What was the name of that track? > >Q 3: Given that the mystery track has a name between >Catawissa and Rock Glen, does it keep that name >between Rock Glen and Tomhicken, or did it become >something else at Rock Glen? > >Q 4: Whatever name(s) the mystery track had between >Catawissa and Tomhicken, is it still called that >beyond New Boston, or is it called yet another name? ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Jul 98 9:56:29 EDT From: Subject: [PRR] Streamlined K-4 Content-Length: 1692 In the book American Steam Locomotives by Paul North, on page 71 there is a picture of a streamlined K-4s, (seems to be a builder's or promotional photo), #1120, that has an extremely attractive paint job. On the bottom half of the tender there are 4 stripes, followed by Pennsylvania in the futura? style lettering, then two additional stripes above that. It also has a keystone with PRR in the top right corner on the tender. I've seen photos of other streamlined engines that have what looks like a decorative badge, shaped like wings, above the head light. It's difficult to tell but I don't think this particular locomotive has that feature. The loco & tender are definitely paired for each other since the striping continues on to the engine. There is a diaphragm between the two and there looks to be a canvas tarp that extends from the top of the cab roof back on to the tender. Can any tell tell me if this was the standard paint scheme applied to new streamlined K-4s or was this something special? Would the time period be the '30s? Would this locomotive be reserved for the more prestigious pasenger trains? Any additional info regarding this would be appreciated. Any guess as to how long this paint job would have been seen? Maybe as late as 1955 regards, Kris Kollar ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Streamlined K-4 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 98 11:24:23 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1832 On 7/21/98 9:56 AM, kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL (kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL) wrote: >Can any tell tell me if this was the standard paint scheme applied to new >streamlined K-4s or was this something special? Would the time period be >the '30s? Would this locomotive be reserved for the more prestigious >pasenger trains? I don't have that book to look at, but here's some info: It was either in 1936 or 38 that the K4s was first streamlined. Only a few received this "Buck Rogers" treatment, which included the "wings" you described on the front. These were used in passenger service. In 1939-40, the Leowy streamlining took place, in conjunction with the "Fleet of Modernism" scheme applied to new and some existing passenger cars. This look did not have the "wings" on the front, but the entire engine was still streamlined. Just in a different way. Again, passenger service, but no all units. Mainly the "Blue Ribbon" fleet, which was also powered by GG-1's east of Harrisburg and T-1's west of Harrisburg. Most of the K4 streamlining was removed during the mid-40's. See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/faqs/fleet.html for more info on the "FoM". ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:27:20 -0500 From: "Laird, Bill (GWise)" Subject: [PRR] Altoona Railfest '98 Content-Length: 645 Date: 07/21/1998 04:25 pm (Tuesday) From: Bill Laird To: INET.MAIL("PRR-Talk@dsop.com") Subject: Altoona Railfest '98 Does anyone have any information on this years Railfest in Altoona? Dates Events Excursions Thanks for any info. Bill Laird Houston, Texas ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:48:04 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] A Sunbury Division question Content-Length: 3078 ---"Richard F. Makse" wrote: and Bob Netzlof thanks him for it. > > Robert Netzlof wrote: > > >Looking at the 1923 CT1000: > > > >What appears to be the Main Line of the division > >departs Sunbury and passes through Catawissa, > >Nescopeck, Walwallopen, and other places on it's way > >to Wilkes-Barre. (I think its the main because it has > >no name in the CT1000.) > > Yes, that's the Main > > > >Q 1: Is that in fact the Main Line of the Sunbury > >Division? > > > >At Nescopeck, the Nescopeck Branch leaves the main > >and goes through Zenith, Bond, and Tank on it's way > >to Rock Glen, which is apparently the end of the > >Nescopeck Branch. > > > Rock Glen Junction to Nescopeck (7738A in CT1000) is Nescopeck Branch. > > >At Catawissa, a track departs from the main and > >passes through Mainville, Scotch Valley, and Mountain > >Grove on it's way to Rock Glen. (Or is this the main > >line, and if not, why isn't Mainville called > >Branchville?) > > > This is also "Main Line". Sunbury Division had two "mains". > > This answers Q2,3 and 4 below. The track between Catawissa and Tomhicken and > New Boston Junction and the Division Post at Pottsville was also the "Main > Line", with trackage rights over the Valley Tomhicken to New Boston > Junction. At Pottsville, the Schuylkill Division begins. > > When the track was cut between a point west of Scotch Valley (Scotch Valley > Colliery) and Catawissa, the Rock Glen Junction/Scotch Valley Colliery piece > was referred to as the Catawissa Branch. This happened sometime in the 30's > and I suspect that the Rock Glen/Catawissa piece (when it was intact) had > already been degraded to the "Catawissa Branch". > > >Q 2: What was the name of that track? > > > >Q 3: Given that the mystery track has a name between > >Catawissa and Rock Glen, does it keep that name > >between Rock Glen and Tomhicken, or did it become > >something else at Rock Glen? > > > >Q 4: Whatever name(s) the mystery track had between > >Catawissa and Tomhicken, is it still called that > >beyond New Boston, or is it called yet another name? > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER ALERT Date: Tue, 21 Jul 98 11:11:35 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1159 To try to rectify the duplicate messages problem plaguing some subscribers, at approximately 5 p.m. this evening I will flush the "outbound" messages queue on the server. This means that any messages in the process of distributing will not get to all recipients. They should all make it into the Digest and archive, however. I'm not sure what triggered the problem, nor exactly what is happening. The log files do not show evidence of any problem. This should clean things out, however. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:41:55 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] A Sunbury Division question Content-Length: 3078 ---"Richard F. Makse" wrote: and Bob Netzlof thanks him for it. > > Robert Netzlof wrote: > > >Looking at the 1923 CT1000: > > > >What appears to be the Main Line of the division > >departs Sunbury and passes through Catawissa, > >Nescopeck, Walwallopen, and other places on it's way > >to Wilkes-Barre. (I think its the main because it has > >no name in the CT1000.) > > Yes, that's the Main > > > >Q 1: Is that in fact the Main Line of the Sunbury > >Division? > > > >At Nescopeck, the Nescopeck Branch leaves the main > >and goes through Zenith, Bond, and Tank on it's way > >to Rock Glen, which is apparently the end of the > >Nescopeck Branch. > > > Rock Glen Junction to Nescopeck (7738A in CT1000) is Nescopeck Branch. > > >At Catawissa, a track departs from the main and > >passes through Mainville, Scotch Valley, and Mountain > >Grove on it's way to Rock Glen. (Or is this the main > >line, and if not, why isn't Mainville called > >Branchville?) > > > This is also "Main Line". Sunbury Division had two "mains". > > This answers Q2,3 and 4 below. The track between Catawissa and Tomhicken and > New Boston Junction and the Division Post at Pottsville was also the "Main > Line", with trackage rights over the Valley Tomhicken to New Boston > Junction. At Pottsville, the Schuylkill Division begins. > > When the track was cut between a point west of Scotch Valley (Scotch Valley > Colliery) and Catawissa, the Rock Glen Junction/Scotch Valley Colliery piece > was referred to as the Catawissa Branch. This happened sometime in the 30's > and I suspect that the Rock Glen/Catawissa piece (when it was intact) had > already been degraded to the "Catawissa Branch". > > >Q 2: What was the name of that track? > > > >Q 3: Given that the mystery track has a name between > >Catawissa and Rock Glen, does it keep that name > >between Rock Glen and Tomhicken, or did it become > >something else at Rock Glen? > > > >Q 4: Whatever name(s) the mystery track had between > >Catawissa and Tomhicken, is it still called that > >beyond New Boston, or is it called yet another name? > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 12:10:24 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Streamlined K-4 Content-Length: 3221 kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL wrote: > > In the book American Steam Locomotives by Paul North, on page 71 there is a picture of . . . K4 #1120, that has an extremely attractive paint job. I've seen photos of other streamlined engines that have what looks like a decorative badge, shaped like wings, above the head light. It's difficult to tell but I don't think this particular locomotive has that feature. Can any tell tell me if this was the standard paint scheme applied to new streamlined K-4s or was this something special? Would the time period be the '30s? Would this locomotive be reserved for the more prestigious pasenger trains? Any guess as to how long this paint job would have been seen? Maybe as late as 1955? Greetings to Kris and the list: PRR had five streamlined K4s, all retrofitted with sheet-metal skirting, none built new with streamlining. No. 3768 was the first, converted in 1936, and this is the classic Loewy design with the fat fairing over the pilot area. Loewy used a similar design with the S1, which was completed in early 1939 as a built-new streamlined engine. The others, which wore the design you cited, were converted 1940-41 and they were 1120, 2665, 3678, and 5338. They did not have a winged keystone on the front, but a cast keystone numberplate that was shaped to match the spherical outline of the nose-cone fairing. Actually, the 3768 was streamlined without any keystone markings at all on the tender, only lettering. On the front, the PRR logo was high up on the front of the skyline casing, but later was moved down to just above the headline, probably to satisfy image-conscious PRR officials who may have felt that Loewy's subtle treatment of the keystone was not prominent enough. All five K4s were destreamlined shortly after WWII; doubtful that any of the skirting lasted to 1950. As for assignments, they seemed to bounce around. 3768 was assigned to The Governor for awhile, a morning Phila.-Harrisburg run, prior to electrification in 1938, but -- perhaps for maximum public exposure -- it and the other four also worked the top trains on the western lines because they ran in daylight (i.e., Fort-Wayne-Chicago leg). (Many promotional photos were taken with the name-train nameplate, which was a western-lines custom, hung on the front of any of the five K4s.) The daylight segment of the same trains (either east- or westbound) in the east was hauled by electrics. That doesn't mean that the streamlined K4s were limited to the western area -- one of the latter four ran at least once in revenue service on the Harrisburg-Buffalo line. The 3768 also was used for ceremonial trips, promotional equipment displays, and other such ribbon-cutting stuff. Hope this is what you're looking for. Dan Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Galatians 2:20 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] New HO Products Announced Date: Tue, 21 Jul 98 12:26:28 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 3251 Newly announced products in HO Scale: WALTHERS: Walthers will be offering an HO Scale DC-3 Airplane Kit. The kit will be available with decals for US Army Air Force, US Air Force, North Central, Delta, Eastern Airlines, Pacific Southwest Airlines, Ozark, North West Airlines and Canadian Pacific. The kit is scheduled to be released in November and the price is $24.98. In the HO Cornerstone Series there are five new kits. The first is Al's Victory Service Station. This models a "porcelain" type service station that started appearing during the '30's. It comes with three different style pumps and two optional detail kits. Scheduled delivery is August and the price is $21.98. Vintage detail kit is $20.98 and modern detail kit is $20.98. The next is a Trestle with Deck Girder Bridge. This kit contains two trestle kits approximately 14" in length. May be built with or without the deck girder bridge sections. Scheduled delivery is September and the price is $29.98. The Tri-State Power Authority is next on the schedule. This kit simulates modern steel corrugated structures. The Smoke stack is approximately 13" tall. Delivery is scheduled for October and the price is $39.98 The Milwaukee Beer and Ale will be the fourth new kit. This is a large brick structure with a loading dock. This will be available in November and the price is $69.98. The final new kit is the Midstate Marble Products stone finishing plant. Included with the main wooden structure is an outside traveling crane and a large jib crane. Delivery is scheduled for December and the price is $39.98. Walthers has announced a model of the American Locomotive Crane in either powered or dummy versions. Road names will be ... PRR. The price will be $54.98 for the powered version and $29.98 for the dummy version. Delivery is scheduled for September. LIFE LIKE PROTO 1000 Life Like announced their New Proto-1000 Line. To quote, " This exciting new series offers hobbyists fantastic value: high-quality locomotives and freight cars at an affordable price! Proto-1000 features some of the best qualities of Proto 2000, but with a price than enables hobbyists to collect them all!" The first loco in the series will be an EMD F-3A Phase II Diesel Locomotive. Road names will include two different numbers for each of the following: ... PRR (#9502 & 9508 - Brunswick Green Freight Scheme) . These will be available year round (NOT limited run) and are scheduled to be available starting in September. Price will be $50.00. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:17:03 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railfest '98 Content-Length: 720 Greetings to Bill and the group, October 3 and 4 are the dates. Keep an eye on http://www.railroadcity.com/ for details. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA >Subject: Altoona Railfest '98 > >Does anyone have any information on this years Railfest in Altoona? > >Dates > >Events > >Excursions > >Thanks for any info. > >Bill Laird >Houston, Texas ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railfest '98 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 98 13:23:17 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1244 On 7/21/98 11:27 AM, Laird, Bill (GWise) (William.Laird@coastalcorp.com) wrote: >Does anyone have any information on this years Railfest in Altoona? > >Dates > >Events > >Excursions October 3-4. Carl Haslett, list member extraordinaire, will be emcee-ing this year's "PRR-Talk" delegation, as I probably will not make it unless it is a last minute decision. Last year we had a group dinner at Hoss's, which I think is also in the works for this year. I left Harrisburg with a group at 5 a.m. and we were in Cresson by 7:30. Makes for a good start for the day!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:39:36 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] I'm back & virus warning! Content-Length: 1315 The 1223 is over at the Railroad Museum. cos David W. York wrote: > Greetings Earthlings!! > > Concerning the PRR--Any one in PA know if the D16sb from Delmarva is at > the RR Museum of PA or at the Straussburg RR? Wanna go check it out next > week before vacation expires. Thanx. > > Staff Sergeant York > USMCR, IRR > > _____________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:57:03 -0700 (PDT) From: "R. P. Hensley" Subject: Re: [PRR] New HO Products Announced Content-Length: 1440 >Subject: [PRR] New HO Products Announced >Date: Tue, 21 Jul 98 12:26:28 -0400 >From: Jerry >To: "PRR-Talk" >LIFE LIKE PROTO 1000 >The first loco in the series will be an EMD F-3A Phase II Diesel >Locomotive. Road names will include two different numbers for each of >the following: ... PRR (#9502 & 9508 - Brunswick Green Freight Scheme) . >These will be available year round (NOT limited run) and >are scheduled to be available starting in September. Price will be >$50.00. And I suppose that they will bring out a nice looking inexpensive B unit as well now that I have modified a Varney B Unit Shell on an Athearn chassis to match my A. It's my private roadname, but a good looking PRR F3B would fit right in. :-) Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org === http://bsuvc.bsu.edu/~00rphensley/cidwelco.html ================ === The Railroads of Madison County, Indiana ======================= ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 16:35:41 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] New HO Products Announced Content-Length: 1611 Even though I am not in HO, and therefore not able to use one on my railroad (on 2d thought I could put one in the distance) I would make the serious suggestion that Walthers also set up decals for Provincetown-Boston Airlines, which had quite a fleet in schedule service into the 1980's. I think they were the last in scheduled service. It was like listening to the sound track from a WW II movie when they took off from Hyannis. Not only off thread but off-railroading entirely, I was passing the airport Monday as the B-29 "Fifi,", last operable B-29 from WW II, the type which dropped the A bombs on Japan, was taxiing for takeoff. Stopped to watch - she came off right over my head at about 100 feet, full throttle, was not much higher when she went out of sight to the South. That was as great a prime mover sound as listening to a set of GP-7's working a load. Jerry wrote: > > Walthers will be offering an HO Scale DC-3 Airplane Kit. The kit will be > available with decals for US Army Air Force, US Air Force, North > Central, Delta, Eastern Airlines, Pacific Southwest Airlines, Ozark, > North West Airlines and Canadian Pacific. The kit is scheduled to be > released in November and the price is $24.98. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RLA0220@webtv.net (RICHARD ADER) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:39:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Re: PC: Fwd: [dandh] Fw: NS Is Stepping Up Content-Length: 1467 I just have to reply to the statement "a good lawyer". Don't the railroads have "good lawyers"? I cant stand lawyers. Never did never will. An incodent just occured in our community where a known felon drove by the Wal-Mart and took a couple shots at something or someone. A police pursuit resulted in the suspect running into a MCTA bus and jumping from the car ran on foot, shot at police who returned fire wounding the guy. When was all said and done our wonderful DA wanted to charge him with simple assault, and reckless endangerment. Whatever happened to the statute old Slick Willy (Clinton) boasted about where if you commit a felony crime with a handgun its automatic prison for 10 years I believe? Lawyers are just like bankers charging service charges for checking accounts. LEGAL THIEVES. I'm sorry this got me started. Point being Why didn't the railroad sue the parents for raising a bag of sh.. And the judges who presided over the case is giving the message it is ok to brake the law and if you get hurt we'll compensate you for it. Classic USA Liberalism. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:58:01 EDT Subject: [PRR] Greg Martin in Mainline Modeler Content-Length: 874 It never amazes me that Greg Martn can find DGLE on Linrs (way out ) West. On page 46 of the July Mainline Modeler, Greg does a good job of telling m that I should have picked up those MDC and Atlas HO 2-bay covered hopper kits at GATS in Dayton on Sunday now he's told me how to make it into a PRR H34s. He even tells where to find an article on turning the Eastern Car Works 2-bay hopper into an H-33 (the October 1993 Mainline Modeler I never got around to modeling). Greg, Keep up the good work. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Jul 98 21:13:10 Central Daylight Time From: Barry X29Peltier Subject: [PRR] Reading's Harrisburg Depot Content-Length: 582 Jerry, just got the morning sun book Reading Co I and it states the post office bought RDG's station in 1956. Should be safe enough in 1954, though there was only one pair of trains using it at the time. Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Jul 98 7:34:44 EDT From: Subject: re: [PRR] Re: PC: Fwd: [dandh] Fw: NS Is Stepping Up Tresspa... Content-Length: 2727 If this message was intentionally sent to the list I believe Mr. Ader should think twice before sending about such comments in the future. I'm not a legal professional, nor are any of my friends or family so my response is not made in defense of personal pride or the like. With that said, IMHO these comments are way out of line for this group. If you need a reminder we talk about the PRR, its locomotives, rollingstock, practices and the various methods we practice to recreate it in miniature. Believe it or not, like you I'm a conservative. I wave the flag, want to do way with the bad guys and believe the 'felon' should have been charged with much more than simple assault. Never-the-less, I'll reserve my comments for a more appropriate forum as you should too. Kris Kollar ------------- Original Text From: RICHARD ADER , on 7/21/98 9:39 PM: I just have to reply to the statement "a good lawyer". Don't the railroads have "good lawyers"? I cant stand lawyers. Never did never will. An incodent just occured in our community where a known felon drove by the Wal-Mart and took a couple shots at something or someone. A police pursuit resulted in the suspect running into a MCTA bus and jumping from the car ran on foot, shot at police who returned fire wounding the guy. When was all said and done our wonderful DA wanted to charge him with simple assault, and reckless endangerment. Whatever happened to the statute old Slick Willy (Clinton) boasted about where if you commit a felony crime with a handgun its automatic prison for 10 years I believe? Lawyers are just like bankers charging service charges for checking accounts. LEGAL THIEVES. I'm sorry this got me started. Point being Why didn't the railroad sue the parents for raising a bag of sh.. And the judges who presided over the case is giving the message it is ok to brake the law and if you get hurt we'll compensate you for it. Classic USA Liberalism. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TAN: LISTMASTER QUERY Date: Wed, 22 Jul 98 08:43:08 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 817 Has anyone received duplicate posts that were sent out by the server AFTER 5 p.m. yesterday (7/21)? Respond direct only, please, and not to the list. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Jul 98 9:34:40 EDT From: Subject: re: [PRR] TAN: LISTMASTER QUERY Content-Length: 1309 Yes, I received a duplicate messgae from Dan Cupper ------------- Original Text From: Jerry , on 7/22/98 8:43 AM: Has anyone received duplicate posts that were sent out by the server AFTER 5 p.m. yesterday (7/21)? Respond direct only, please, and not to the list. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Station Names - Harrisburg Date: Wed, 22 Jul 98 09:52:53 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1154 PRR stations in Baltimore and New York (and probably other locales) were formally called "Penn Station". Was the station in Harrisburg known as "Penn Station", some other name, or just "Harrisburg"? Harrisburg certainly was sizable...10 station tracks including the junction tracks with the Northern Central Branch and Cumberland Valley Branch...plus the pedestrian walkway/interchange to the Reading Co. passenger station. Actually more station tracks than Penn Station in Baltimore! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 11:08:30 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] New HO Products Announced Content-Length: 1977 Jerry - this is NOT a repeat (I sent back only to Jerry and not the group as intended) >Walthers will be offering an HO Scale DC-3 Airplane Kit. The kit will be >available with decals for US Army Air Force, US Air Force and the price is >$24.98. I saw the add this weekend at my dealer...VERY neat! Does anyone know if these airplanes were ever shipped by rail? It would be a pretty big load! I think most of them were flown to their destinations, often by WACs. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great literary works in Braille. ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:26:14 EDT Subject: [PRR] PARK Tower, Parkesburg, PA. Content-Length: 571 Part of our "Eastern PRR / Signal Group" ( 6 ) had the pleasure of visiting PARK Tower recently.....If anyone is interested in current information regarding PARK, please write and I may be able to help.......Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:24:17 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR 2000 ? Content-Length: 1037 Since last report I have seen Quite a few Conrail Triple Hoppers in the 500,000 to 520,000 series and Hi cube Boxcars in 290,000 number series remarked "NYC" with a black rectangle and white letters - from reports these would be equipment going to C & O ownership Has anyone seen any cars remarked "PRR" yet or will N & S owned cars just remain "CR" ? Any idea of where cars are being restenciled and by whom ? Anyone seen any NEW or completely repainted equipment for PRR or NYC ? How ironic for those guys who were talking about "PRR 2000" it may be already here - and all you need to do is remark Conrail equipment ! Dick Ross Cleveland ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:27:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 2000 ? From: staffsgtyork@juno.com (David W. York) Content-Length: 1367 Dick Ross writes: " Has anyone seen any cars remarked "PRR" yet or will N & S owned cars just remain "CR" ?" " Any idea of where cars are being restenciled and by whom ? Anyone seen any NEW or completely repainted equipment for PRR or NYC ?" Dick, According to one of my recent magazines, the cars restenciled PRR will go to NS. Haven't seen any yet, but since Delmarva is going to the prancing horse, I'll check next visit. According to the article, the cars are marked as shopped, but someone else will have to verify this. The picture I saw was in Trains Magazine I believe, and the box car was completely covered in new paint. They are marked PRR as well according to the report, so lets keep our eyes peeled. SSGT York _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 20:57:00 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 2000 ? Content-Length: 741 Sir, I have seen a few PRR hoppers and gons go by my office at about milepost 86 on the Chicago line. I see many more NYC hoppers, gons and box cars. While I am writing, has anyone heard of plans by NS or A&E to expand the soon to be X-Conrail OD yard at Erie? This is a former PRR facility at the western end of the old Renovo Division. Don Murphy The Renovo Dispatcher ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J. Brandon" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 2000 ? Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 21:01:23 -0400 Content-Length: 2300 I saw numerous examples of both PRR and NYC reporting marks in Altoona two weeks ago. Most were just "re-marked" with a small stencil box, and the work could easily have been done in a yard during a crew stop. I saw a few boxcars that were newly painted and marked. The only change seems to be the reporting marks. The old numbers remain. JB -----Original Message----- From: David W. York To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, July 22, 1998 5:58 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 2000 ? > Dick Ross writes: > >" Has anyone seen any cars remarked "PRR" yet or will N & S owned cars >just remain "CR" ?" > >" Any idea of where cars are being restenciled and by whom ? > Anyone seen any NEW or completely repainted equipment for PRR or >NYC ?" > >Dick, > >According to one of my recent magazines, the cars restenciled PRR will >go to NS. Haven't seen any yet, but since Delmarva is going to the >prancing horse, I'll check next visit. According to the article, the >cars are marked as shopped, but someone else will have to verify this. >The picture I saw was in Trains Magazine I believe, and the box car was >completely covered in new paint. They are marked PRR as well according >to the report, so lets keep our eyes peeled. > >SSGT York > >_____________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com >Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:13:42 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Greg Martin in Mainline Modeler Content-Length: 1299 In reference to Greg Martin's use of the Eastern Car Works kit as a starting point for the H-33 in his October '93 Mainline Modeler article (thanks for the reference in the July '98 issue); has anyone used the Bowser or the Kato 70 Ton covered hopper as the basis for an H-33? Both the Kato and the Bowser kits have their good and bad points, but I have not seen an Eastern Car Works kit to make a comparison. From the "Color Guide" photos the basic layout of the Kato and Bowser kits look close to the H-33, but I have not located any end detail pictures to see how things match. Greg's article provides excellent information on building and locating the hatches for the H-33, as well as the other details. Rick Siller << LINESWEST@aol.com writes: He even tells where to find an article on turning the Eastern Car Works 2-bay hopper into an H-33 (the October 1993 Mainline Modeler I never got around to modeling). >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 01:53:44 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Station Names - Harrisburg Content-Length: 1276 Greetings to Jerry and the List: This could be the subject of an article, if someone ever had the time to do the research. Many stations changed names over the years . . . one was Union Station in Pittsburgh. Why Union? PRR, PFtW&C, PCC&StL all ran in there as somewhat-separate entities before the 1920 "merger." But then, it wasn't a true union station anyway, just in PRR's mind; it then became just Pennsylvania Station. Likewise, Harrisburg has been named in some references as a union station (built in 1887, it served PRR, NCRy and CVRR, not to mention the leased HPMtJ&L), but it's unclear if it ever carried the name Union Station. One distinctive of Harrisburg station is that it seems never to have had any form of trackside station sign. Guess if you missed the conductor's call you were just supposed to know where you were. Dan Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Galatians 2:20 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Where is Charlie Corangie? Date: Thu, 23 Jul 98 06:15:52 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1273 Please excuse the spelling of the last name. Last night I was in touch with Bill Lewis, president of the Northern Central Chapter of the PRRT&HS. Bill lives about 20 minutes from me and is my "library" of PRR stuff. I called him, asking for info and photos about Harrisburg, Pa. He pointed me to Charlie Corangie, from the Philly area, as a Harrisburg expert, and as someone who models some of the same areas that I want to do. Does anyone have a phone number for Charlie? I'd like to reach him before this Friday evening (7/24). E-mail would be better, but I don't think he's online. He's from the Philly area, and is surely a member of the Philly chapter PRRT&HS. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: [PRR] fast freight trains Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:02:39 EDT Content-Length: 564 After seeing some incredibly slow freight train schedules, it was refreshing to see that a freight could get from Chicago to Joizee in just over 24 hrs! See the TT schedules on my site ... -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:40:22 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Station Names - Harrisburg Content-Length: 957 In a message dated 98-07-23 07:20:29 EDT, cupper@ibm.net writes: << One distinctive of Harrisburg station is that it seems never to have had any form of trackside station sign. Guess if you missed the conductor's call you were just supposed to know where you were. >> A thought: when the first "union" station in Harrisburg was built, did any trains run through it? If everything terminated or originated there, even for a brief period of time after opening, the expense of signage might have been deemed unnecessary, thus starting another 'permanent PRR tradition". Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: [PRR] Philly-area question Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 23:18:37 EDT Content-Length: 802 Just recently put up schedules for train TP-1/TP-2. Was wondering if a Philly-area expert could clarify some stuff for me. 1) Where is Thurlow? Near Chester, clearly, but where exactly? 2) One of the trains, TP-2 I believe, sets off a block of cars at Grays Ferry. Where exactly would it have left these cars? The page is at http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Frtsched/tp2_1960.html -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER ALERT Date: Fri, 24 Jul 98 06:32:59 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1954 Yesterday was a mess...my new Web server version ( a beta) kept locking up the machine. When so locked, the listserv was frozen. That's why you received very few posts yesterday. Last night I downgraded the web server and all appears well again. On the listserv front, in an attempt to stop the duplicate messages to some subscribers -- which is hard to troubleshoot because it appears random -- I am getting more aggressive with "bounce backs" from subscriber accounts. When a destination mail server kicks back a "user unknown", "host unknown", "fatal account error", or the like, I am immediately unsubscribing that subscriber. Such errors require the listserv to wait for a timeout each time it tries to send a single post to that person, which is every hour for 24 hours until it considers it a failure. While it is waiting for a timeout, it "may" be interferring with other list traffic, I theorize, and thus causing the dupes. If an account returns a "mailbox full" type error, I note the account and watch it for a few days. If the problem persists, the subscriber will be unsubscribed. Sorry for any inconvenience, but to quote Mr. Spock, "The needs of the many outweight the needs of the few". Please keep the duplicate alerts coming...I need to know the sender, recipient (you), and the subject line of the message. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Passenger Power / Harrisburg Date: Fri, 24 Jul 98 08:36:32 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1048 Era is 1954. Did all through passenger trains change power at Harrisburg? Obviously electrics changed for diesels or steam, and trains off the Northern Central Branch were likely upgraded, but did power change just for the sake of keeping the unit near its "home shop"? Were all passenger trains out of Philly to Harrisburg electric powered (GG1) or did some run with diesel/steam? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Turnaround time From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 98 08:49:00 -0400 Content-Length: 827 I was looking the other night at a 1950 Form 1 (System Public Timetable). Most NY-Chicago and NY-StL trains show zero time stopped at Harrisburg (arr time = dep time) This even includes those trains adding or dropping a Washington section! I know the NH, and now Amtrak, allowed 20 minutes for an engine change at the end of wire in New Haven. How did the PRR do it so fast? Or did they just lie to the public? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Turnaround time Date: Fri, 24 Jul 98 09:40:43 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1931 On 7/24/98 8:49 AM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mail11.mitre.org) wrote: >I was looking the other night at a 1950 Form 1 (System Public Timetable). >Most >NY-Chicago and NY-StL trains show zero time stopped at Harrisburg (arr time = >dep time) This even includes those trains adding or dropping a Washington >section! I know the NH, and now Amtrak, allowed 20 minutes for an engine >change at the end of wire in New Haven. How did the PRR do it so fast? >Or did >they just lie to the public? I don't have the 1950 Form 1, but I do have a 1954 Form 1, 1954 Form 4, and the same for a few other years. All but a couple do show a 20-30 minute layover. You do have to read the timetable inconsecutively, because there are a couple of lines inserted for the Northern Central Branch. Example: Philly .. Harrisburg (Arr) --------- Baltimore <- York <-This is the NCRy segment Harrisburg (Arr) <- --------- Harrisburg (Dep) ... Pittsburgh I'm sure you already know this, Andrew, no insult intended, but I share it for others. Perhaps the 1950 was a fluke, misprint, or something else. Harrisburg often saw car shuffling from the NCRy Branch, as well as power changes (AC to diesel/steam, etc.). ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Online Connections Date: Fri, 24 Jul 98 10:05:30 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1395 How many of you HO scalers have layouts with connections very close to or including Harrisburg, Pa.? I've included the names of those I know: Main line from Philadelphia: none known Main line from Pittsburgh: none known Former NCRy line north along Susquehanna to Sunbury: Ken McCorry Northern Central Branch south to Baltimore: Hank Mummert (Baltimore to York) Cumberland Valley Branch: none known Columbia Branch: Bruce Smith (Columbia, Pa.) Enola (west side of the river): none known Anyone know of any Reading Co. modelers who are online that model into or through the Rutherford Yards at Hummelstown? Thanks. This is for virtual connections to my planned layout. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:15:37 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Turnaround time Content-Length: 1439 Andrew S. Miller wrote: > > I was looking the other night at a 1950 Form 1 (System Public Timetable). Most > NY-Chicago and NY-StL trains show zero time stopped at Harrisburg (arr time = > dep time) This even includes those trains adding or dropping a Washington >section! Allowing for the fact that you are referring to a public timetable, and inferring that the employee timetable "probably" shows the same times, it may be because a train is not allowed to leave a station in advance of its scheduled departure time. There may have been sufficient running time in the schedule to the next station for the train to arrive there on time even if leaving Harrisburg after the scheduled departure time (up to a point), the actual departure varying according to the work to be done at the station. This would allow the train to leave as soon as ready; the early published departure time would also serve to get passengers boarded on time. This practice of identical arrival and departure times is frequent, and not limited to the PRR. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:19:40 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Online Connections Content-Length: 875 Jerry wrote: > > How many of you HO scalers have layouts with connections very close to or > including Harrisburg, Pa.? I've included the names of those I know: > Since they are to be virtual connections, do they have to be HO? If I can decide upon a locale for my O scale PRR efforts, I would be happy to incorporate some interchange. I have a major branch that dead ends at a holding yard out of sight; that could be at a point on your railroad. It's been done across scales before. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Jul 98 11:36:41 EDT From: Subject: [PRR] SPF Christmas gift Content-Length: 840 First, I'll make it clear that I nor my family work for Hallmark. With that said, I just came back from the local Hallmark gift shop were the 1998 Christmas ornaments were on display (sacrilegious if you ask me, but I'll leave that to a different forum). I did see something of interest to every SPFer out there. The 3rd in the locomotive series was........the GG-1 sporting the single stripe DGLE paint scheme. Priced at $18.95 it's a must for your Christmas tree. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Online Connections Date: Fri, 24 Jul 98 11:54:21 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1480 On 7/24/98 11:19 AM, Stephen Bartlett (sbartlet@capecod.net) wrote: >> How many of you HO scalers have layouts with connections very close to or >> including Harrisburg, Pa.? I've included the names of those I know: >> > >Since they are to be virtual connections, do they have to be HO? If I >can decide upon a locale for my O scale PRR efforts, I would be happy to >incorporate some interchange. I have a major branch that dead ends at a >holding yard out of sight; that could be at a point on your railroad. >It's been done across scales before. For some aspects of virtual connections, yes, that will work and is acceptable. Let me know. On the other hand, I will be looking to do some joint photo/video work that follows specific trains across multiple layouts. That will require staying in HO. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:01:30 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg dwell times, 1950 Content-Length: 932 Regarding Andy and Steve's discussion of Harrisburg dwell times, the PRR Employee Timetable #16, of April 30, 1950 shows arrive and leave times for all thru trains...as little as 5 minutes for #29 and the other ' flyers ', up to 40 minutes for the lesser trains. The engine change needed the minimum, more for station drilling, etc.. Public TTs often seem to omit these arrival times, especially if the train cannot carry passengers that might arrive. For example, #29 only received passengers for destinations west of Pittsburgh, etc......Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] SPF Christmas gift Date: Fri, 24 Jul 98 13:09:43 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1462 On 7/24/98 11:36 AM, kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL (kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL) wrote: >First, I'll make it clear that I nor my family work for Hallmark. With >that said, I just came back from the local Hallmark gift shop were the 1998 >Christmas ornaments were on display (sacrilegious if you ask me, but I'll >leave that to a different forum). I did see something of interest to every >SPFer out there. The 3rd in the locomotive series was........the GG-1 >sporting the single stripe DGLE paint scheme. Priced at $18.95 it's a must >for your Christmas tree. A few years back a group in Harrisburg -- American Legion maybe -- did an ornament of the Rockville Bridge. Even came with a stand so you can leave it out year round. It's clear and the bridge is printed in gold. I have one. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg dwell times, 1950 Date: Fri, 24 Jul 98 13:12:13 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1435 On 7/24/98 12:01 PM, PRRSignals@aol.com (PRRSignals@aol.com) wrote: > Employee Timetable #16, of April 30, 1950 shows arrive and leave times for >all thru > trains...as little as 5 minutes for #29 and the other ' flyers ', up to 40 >minutes for the > lesser trains. The engine change needed the minimum, more for station >drilling, etc.. >Public TTs often seem to omit these arrival times, especially if the train >cannot carry >passengers that might arrive. For example, #29 only received passengers >for >destinations west of Pittsburgh, etc......Bill Maybe to improve efficiency they hung oncoming passengers onto a "passenger crane" (like a mail crane) and picked 'em up on the fly...that, of course, after "passenger pans" proved too messy! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:54:19 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg online connection Content-Length: 1559 Hello folks... While i model in H.O. and my Northern Central ends with the north end of York,Pa. it does go north towards Harrisburg though(the tunnel that takes trains back to Baltimore for continuous running). If someone wants to do a video though that is probably out of the question,as for one i still don't have much scenery up and two the line between Glen ,Pa. and Cockeysville is'nt in yet. During the planning stages of my layout i had originally wanted to include Harrisburg passenger station and Enola yard...but due to reallity i can't (well at least not until one or two of the kids move out) I'll probably do a rebuild of some of the original layout with most of the important parts of the line between York and Harrisburg station taking up the new space. Til Later H.Mummert P.S. Hmmmmm perhaps since there are others modeling different parts of the Pennsy, You could show a train...say a LCL or something like PG-5 on different parts of the Pennsy..you would'nt have to show all the connecting parts...just locations.... ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Works in Progress Date: Fri, 24 Jul 98 15:04:46 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1587 Just a reminder to all who maintain PRR web sites and to those who aspire to do the same... I maintain a "Work In Progress" page (http://kc.pennsyrr.com/working.thml) that lists all of the projects currently underway at my site and at others. Its purpose is to avoid duplication of effort!!! The neat thing is that other sites that I include in this list may be updated by the operator of that site on their site. That is, they maintain a text file on their site listing what they are working on. My "Work In Progress" page, each time it is served, will go out and read these files and present one consolidated page to the requestor. It's a really neat feature, and I'm sure there are other applications of the technique (just speak up!). Currently Rob Schoenburg is the only participant other than myself. If you wish to participate, e-mail me and I'll provide the very brief instructions. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 98 15:19:53 CST Subject: [PRR] Danneman print... Content-Length: 1054 Hi, all, As some of you recall, there was a wonderful painting of Horseshoe Curve, 1952 in an issue of TRAINS last year. I contacted Mike Danneman, the artist, to inquire about prints. Well, now they are available. The print is 10 1/2 x 14" on 12 x 16" 80 lb stock. Cost is: Unsigned $20.00 Signed $25.00 S&H $ 4.95 IL residents add 8.25% sales tax Contact: Sandcastle Arts, PO Box 1998, Palatine, IL 60078 Phone: (847) 359-6605 FAX: (847) 359-6612 Payment is by check; they don't take plastic. My order's in the mail. PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:17:17 -0500 From: "Laird, Bill (GWise)" Subject: [PRR] Lenz Decoder Announcement Content-Length: 2225 Date: 07/24/1998 08:15 pm (Friday) From: Bill Laird To: INET.MAIL("PRR-Talk@dsop.com") Subject: Lenz Decoder Announcement As I am sure many of you DCC users know, a couple of years ago Lenz brought to market a low end decoder, the LE103. It had forward and reverse, 28 speed steps, and a couple of output functions at originally an MSRP of $ 29.95. Lenz billed it as a "fleet decoder" with the idea that for a lot of locomotives a basic decoder that provided directional control, and a forward and reverse headlight at a low price was all that was needed. Not all locomotives needed strobes, beacons, Mars lights, interior lights, and flashing ditch lights. After all how many extra functions do you need for a steam engine with a single headlight or for that matter a diesel B unit. The idea was a good one. A low priced decoder for most of the locomotives on your layout. You could always buy a couple of high end decoders for your locomotives with the fancy lighting setups, but the LE103 would serve most of the "fleet". The flaw was the LE103 only had 28 speed steps. I put a couple of them in LL P2K SD9's and although they ran okay, the speed range was not nearly as fine as 128 steps and abrupt speed changes were quite obvious. My 128 step NCE and Digitrax equipped locomotives have much better speed control, especially at low speeds. Well, Lenz has fixed the 28 step flaw and added functionality. They have announced the LE103XF decoder. The decoder is similar in appearance to the standard LE103 but has 128 speed steps, user loadable speed tables, a dimmable headlight function, acceleration and deceleration trim, and 4-digit addressing. Best of all the MSRP is $24.95. At normal discounted prices it appears we finally have a true "fleet decoder" for 20 bucks. Bill Laird Houston, Texas ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Lenz Decoder Announcement Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 17:00:14 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 1456 On 24 Jul, "Laird, Bill (GWise)" wrote: > Well, Lenz has fixed the 28 step flaw and added functionality. They > have announced the LE103XF decoder. The decoder is similar in > appearance to the standard LE103 but has 128 speed steps, user > loadable speed tables, a dimmable headlight function, acceleration and > deceleration trim, and 4-digit addressing. Best of all the MSRP is $24.95. > At normal discounted prices it appears we finally have a true "fleet > decoder" for 20 bucks. What are the dimensions of this new item? I'm in N scale, and I'm drooling over a prospect like this. Even if it's HO-sized, it can probably fit inside a B-unit dummy and power the whole consist. The dimensions on the LE103 are: L 1.52" x W .67" x H .13". Since most of these features appear to be software upgrades (with the possible exception of the dimmable headlight), I would think that it'll be the same size. IMHO, they picked the right set of features! Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 16:37:21 -0500 From: "Laird, Bill (GWise)" Subject: Re: [PRR] Lenz Decoder Announcement -Reply Content-Length: 2509 Date: 07/24/1998 10:35 pm (Friday) From: Bill Laird To: INET.MAIL("PRR-Talk@dsop.com") CC: INET.MAIL:"dennis@bbn.com" Subject: Re: [PRR] Lenz Decoder Announcement -Reply Dennis, Can't answer your question of physical size of the newly announced Lenz 103XF decoder. The information I posted was all I have. It came from a post on a DCC-SIG posted by Larry Puckett, contributing editor of Model Railroading Magazine. He stated that he got the information from Debbie Ames at Tried and True Trains (Debbie is the USA distributor for Lenz). I have been unable to find an announcement on the internet at either the Lenz site or at Tried and True Trains site. Maybe there will be more information after the NMRA convention currently underway. Bill Laird Houston, Texas bill.laird@coastalcorp.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Dennis Rockwell at 07/24/98 04:00pm wrote>>> On 24 Jul, "Laird, Bill (GWise)" wrote: > Well, Lenz has fixed the 28 step flaw and added functionality. They > have announced the LE103XF decoder. The decoder is similar in > appearance to the standard LE103 but has 128 speed steps, user > loadable speed tables, a dimmable headlight function, acceleration and > deceleration trim, and 4-digit addressing. Best of all the MSRP is $24.95. > At normal discounted prices it appears we finally have a true "fleet > decoder" for 20 bucks. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What are the dimensions of this new item? I'm in N scale, and I'm drooling over a prospect like this. Even if it's HO-sized, it can probably fit inside a B-unit dummy and power the whole consist. The dimensions on the LE103 are: L 1.52" x W .67" x H .13". Since most of these features appear to be software upgrades (with the possible exception of the dimmable headlight), I would think that it'll be the same size. IMHO, they picked the right set of features! Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RLA0220@webtv.net (RICHARD ADER) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:50:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] SD40 SD40-2 Content-Length: 641 Can someone tell me the difference between these engines. It is my understanding the PRR had SD40s and PENN CENTRAL SD40-2s. The PRR did not have the -2s. Were they a newer version with no exterrior differences? Does the Athearn SD40-2 fit the PC prototype? Thank you Rich ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:15:20 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Online Connections Content-Length: 1193 Jerry wrote: > > ...On the other hand, I will be looking to do some joint photo/video work > that follows specific trains across multiple layouts. That will require > staying in HO. > There is an old trick of photographing an item against a reference item - such as a ruler, coin, or match box, By using a reference sized precisely at 87/48 normal size, could we not fool the masses? Assuming, of course, that specifically scale referenced items are not in the picture. Or, with computers, anything is possible. I assume we do not actually intend to UPS cars from railroad to railroad. If beaming from location to location were possible (Star Trek stuff) then size adjustment in flight might also be feasible. Steve Bartlett After 1 lobster, 1 Beefeater, and awaiting 11 PM for a knee MRI Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:23:44 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg dwell times, 1950 Content-Length: 1059 Jerry wrote: > > > Maybe to improve efficiency they hung oncoming passengers onto a > "passenger crane" (like a mail crane) and picked 'em up on the > fly...that, of course, after "passenger pans" proved too messy! > Seriously, one of my fellow NYCS employees told me this was actually done for a "little old lady" type who needed to catch the Century at a major station where it was not scheduled to stop. The train slowed to around 5 mph and the doors and trap were open. One employee tossed her luggage through a door, then a few feet farther down the platform, two large, burly employees picked her up and gently tossed her onto the train as it passed. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Tully" Subject: Re: [PRR] SD40 SD40-2 Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 17:59:05 PDT Content-Length: 2332 >Can someone tell me the difference between these engines. It is my understanding the PRR had SD40s and PENN CENTRAL SD40-2s. The PRR did not have the -2s. Were they a newer version with no exterrior differences? Does the Athearn SD40-2 fit the PC prototype?< Rich, To answer your question(s): Yes, the PRR did have SD40's. Yes, the PC did have SD40-2's. No, they are not the same on the out side, the most noticable of the differances would be the SD40-2 has a "back porch", whereas the straight 40 does not. The -2 upgrade is mostly electronics, but some exterior differences are there, the -2 is also longer. Rail Power Products does the SD40, for the PRR fan. The Athearn SD40-2 is a "good place to start", but it is not correct for the PC SD40-2, if your modeling one from the original batch (1972-1975). The major differences being that the ones the PC would have purchased had the 81" nose and the older radiator inlet screens. I believe they also had the ratchet style brake lever, instead of the wheel. The Athearn model is of the "most common" SD40-2, the second "Phase" with the 88" nose, brake wheel and "Phase II" radiator inlet screens. I say "good place to start" because by way of Cannon & Company, you can build vertually any SD40-2 you want. They have the 81" nose, complete with three versions of brake gear, and you can purchase seperatly a fourth, and the radiator inlet screens. While your at it, get one of their cab kits and put a Precision Scale Co. brass number board/headlight set on it (they don't melt for those who use light bulbs still). And if you want to go all out, get an Ernst Gear Co. gear reduction set and NWSL nickel wheels (40" of course) and run at prototype speeds, with a cooler motor, and lots more GRUNT! Hope this helps. Kevin Tully ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 21:27:45 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] SD40 SD40-2 Content-Length: 5034 --------------C86B7217EA8EB9F160D252F6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The PRR took delivery of 65 SD40s in Febuary/March 1966, they were numbers 6040 to 6104. In standard PRR fashion they followed the SD35 and preceded the SD45s. The PC took delivery of 45 more SD40s in December 70 and January 71, numbered 6240 - 6284. Conrail renumbered the whole set into the 6240 to 6357 series to make room for all the SD45s in the 6066 - 6239. The SD40-2s, introduced by EMD in 1972, major spotting difference is the extended range dynamic brakes. Major internal changes included solid state plug in modules and an improved AC alternator. The Conrail SD40-2s numbers are 6358-6525. All SD40s, either straight or dash 2s, have 4000 gal fuel tanks, 645E3/F3 prime movers and used the same frame as the SD45(-2). I put a picture of PC 6244 and SD40 and one of Conrail SD40-2 6418 on my web page. See them at http://www.concentric.net/~wsbcos/conrail.htm. If you look at the dynamic brake blister, located behind the air intake grill, directly in back of the cab. You can see on the CR unit that the brake housing touches the air intake, while on the PC unit the housing stops several inches in back of the air intake. I'd have to check my back issues of X2200 South for the desposition for some of the original PRR SD40s. I think I read that some had been converted to SD40-3s by Boise for the ?. cos RICHARD ADER wrote: > Can someone tell me the difference between > these engines. It is my understanding the PRR had SD40s and PENN > CENTRAL SD40-2s. > The PRR did not have the -2s. Were they a newer version with no > exterrior differences? > Does the Athearn SD40-2 fit the PC prototype? > Thank you > Rich > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --------------C86B7217EA8EB9F160D252F6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The PRR took delivery of 65 SD40s in Febuary/March 1966, they were numbers 6040 to 6104.  In standard PRR fashion they followed the SD35 and preceded the SD45s.  The PC took delivery of 45 more SD40s in December 70 and January 71, numbered 6240 - 6284.  Conrail renumbered the whole set into the 6240 to 6357 series to make room for all the SD45s in the 6066 - 6239.

The SD40-2s, introduced by EMD in 1972,  major spotting difference is the extended range dynamic brakes.  Major internal changes included solid state plug in modules and an improved AC alternator.

The Conrail SD40-2s numbers are 6358-6525.

All SD40s, either straight or dash 2s, have 4000 gal fuel tanks, 645E3/F3 prime movers and used the same frame as the SD45(-2).

I put a picture of PC 6244 and SD40 and one of Conrail SD40-2 6418 on my web page.  See them at http://www.concentric.net/~wsbcos/conrail.htm.  If you look at the dynamic brake blister, located behind the air intake grill, directly in back of the cab.  You can see on the CR unit that the brake housing touches the air intake, while on the PC unit the housing stops several inches in back of the air intake.

I'd have to check my back issues of X2200 South for the desposition for some of the original PRR SD40s.   I think I read that some had been converted to SD40-3s by Boise for the ?.
cos

RICHARD ADER wrote:

Can someone tell me the difference between
these engines.  It is my understanding the PRR had SD40s and PENN
CENTRAL SD40-2s.
The PRR did not have the -2s.  Were they a newer version with no
exterrior differences?
Does the Athearn  SD40-2 fit the PC prototype?
Thank you
Rich

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com".

  --------------C86B7217EA8EB9F160D252F6-- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 22:01:39 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Turnaround time Content-Length: 824 Many of my PRR ETT's show a scheduled departure time which is 3-4 minutes later than the publicly advertised one. A reference mark next to same says "Train may depart at .....(the publicly shown time) if station work is completed". The Broadway's public time at North Phila. was 7:21pm, the ETT time was 7:24pm. I never saw it leave at any time other than 7:21, which basically gave No.29 three extra minutes to get to Paoli, just in case. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 22:17:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] SD40 SD40-2 Content-Length: 662 On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Kevin Tully wrote: > Rail Power Products does the SD40, for the PRR fan. So did Kato, factory painted even, but: a) the paint is too "green" b) the style of the numbers is wrong (Microscale gets it right, but why get factory paint, then?) c) their frame is "goofy" -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 23:24:03 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Altoona Content-Length: 1260 Hello Folks... I wondered if anyone here could tell me about Altoona..... I've never been up to Altoona and want to get up there sometime in the future,but something i've been thinking about is this. Over the years i've read articles and looked at pictures of PRR trackage and facilities in Altoona. Compared to say 40 years ago what is gone and what is still there for the railfan to still find and see? This would include the shops,all yards,main trackage,storage yards, towers and stations. I know the old Altoona station is and has been gone for a long time. And that some of the shops have been sold off and are gone. But compared to 40 years ago what is left? this might not only benefit me but others who have never been there. Til Later H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg dwell times, 1950 Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 23:58:39 -0400 Content-Length: 1190 Steve Bartlett wrote: > Seriously, one of my fellow NYCS employees told me this was actually >done for a "little old lady" type who needed to catch the Century at a >major station where it was not scheduled to stop. The train slowed to >around 5 mph and the doors and trap were open. One employee tossed her >luggage through a door, then a few feet farther down the platform, two >large, burly employees picked her up and gently tossed her onto the >train as it passed. Now, this story actually appeared in TRAINS about 30 years ago under the title of (forgive my approximate reach into memory) "Boarding the Century at Utica" (or was it Syracuse?). "And Mr. Bartlett and I do not want to hear snide remarks from anyone on this list who doesn't like gray-colored diesels", he remarked diffidently. Dick Makse ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 08:23:29 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg dwell times, 1950 Content-Length: 1134 Richard F. Makse wrote: > > > Now, this story actually appeared in TRAINS about 30 years ago under the > title of (forgive my approximate reach into memory) "Boarding the Century at > Utica" (or was it Syracuse?). "And Mr. Bartlett and I do not want to hear > snide remarks from anyone on this list who doesn't like gray-colored > diesels", he remarked diffidently. > Dick, Thanks for the support: I must admit to riding many more miles behind gray diesels (and _black_ steamers) than Tuscan and DGLE, respectively. Besides, ANY locomotive with coat hangers on the roof or little shoes on the bottom can't be all bad. :-) Thank you also for remembering the correct source for the Century story. That does ring a bell with me as well. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 09:48:05 EDT Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg dwell times Content-Length: 1661 Hi folks, I've noted with some interest the comments on Pennsy's use of identical arrival and departure times shown for Harrisburg in public timetables. I had posed a similar question a few weeks ago to the OPSIG/LDSIG email list. In particular, I was wondering why the B&O used this practice at Akron, Ohio, but not any other major stop. I footnoted my inquiry with a mention of Pennsy's tendency to do the same at such stations as Harrisburg, Pittsburgh, Columbus, Dayton, Fort Wayne and other major points. It depends to some degree at which year's Official Guides a person looks over, and the practice varied somewhat even within the Pennsy listings. Indy, for example, usually showed identical times for east-west trains, but not for Chicago-Louisville trains. I received a few educated guesses from other members, but nothing that really explained this policy. I've been addicted to public timetables for many a year, and can verify that this was most certainly not a common practice amoung railroads in general. Only a very few listed identical arr/lv times for other than their top trains, and none to the extent the Pennsy did. Always been curious about this subject, but maybe the secret is buried simewhere in the archieves of the PRR passenger department. Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg dwell times, 1950 From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 12:29:10 EDT Content-Length: 2031 I think you can confirm that in an article from "TRAINS" in the mid 60s. MEA ______________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com Management Services Telephone 609-683-0356 On Fri, 24 Jul 1998 20:23:44 -0400 Stephen Bartlett writes: >Jerry wrote: >> >> >> Maybe to improve efficiency they hung oncoming passengers onto a >> "passenger crane" (like a mail crane) and picked 'em up on the >> fly...that, of course, after "passenger pans" proved too messy! > >> > Seriously, one of my fellow NYCS employees told me this was >actually >done for a "little old lady" type who needed to catch the Century at a >major station where it was not scheduled to stop. The train slowed to >around 5 mph and the doors and trap were open. One employee tossed >her >luggage through a door, then a few feet farther down the platform, two >large, burly employees picked her up and gently tossed her onto the >train as it passed. > >Steve Bartlett > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 15:26:33 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg dwell times, 1950 Content-Length: 1007 In a message dated 98-07-24 21:02:26 EDT, sbartlet@capecod.net writes: << Seriously, one of my fellow NYCS employees told me this was actually done for a "little old lady" type who needed to catch the Century at a major station where it was not scheduled to stop. The train slowed to >> There was an article called "Boarding the Century at Utica" in TRAINS way,way back--probably 30 years ago--which described this routine exactly. Of course, OUR railroad wouldn't think of slowing the Broadway down to 5 mph at, say, Trenton. Even though it would be easy to toss the old lady into a vestibule from the high platform! Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RLA0220@webtv.net (RICHARD ADER) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 21:39:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Red Arrow Content-Length: 497 Anybody have any infomation on the wreck of the Red Arrow other than that which is printed in Triumph 1, that I may copy? Thanks Rich ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Arrow Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 07:34:38 -0400 Content-Length: 1177 Richard, Railroad Video Productions Tape No. 90 "PRR Power Volume 4" has some coverage of the Red Arrow wreck in 1947. Jerry Breon -----Original Message----- From: RICHARD ADER To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Saturday, July 25, 1998 9:47 PM Subject: [PRR] Red Arrow Anybody have any infomation on the wreck of the Red Arrow other than that which is printed in Triumph 1, that I may copy? Thanks Rich ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Arrow Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 20:25:01 -0500 Content-Length: 1300 Rich, There is a whole story with pictures in the "Keystone" 1984 issue, Vol.1, page 36 on....... I'll be glade to copy it for you, if your not in a big rush.....Give me a week and you'll have it. Send me your address or fax number, for the artical. Bill Knepper ---------- > From: RICHARD ADER > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Red Arrow > Date: Saturday, July 25, 1998 8:39 PM > > Anybody have any infomation on the wreck of > the Red Arrow other than that which is printed > in Triumph 1, that I may copy? > Thanks > Rich > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Freight Schedules / Harrisburg PA Date: Mon, 27 Jul 98 08:55:00 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1686 Just picked up a brochure from when the Pennsy introduced TrucTrain service, June 1954. There were initially three trains: 2 westbound and 1 eastbound, designated LCL-1, LCL-7, and LCL-2 respectively. The brochure includes departure and arrival times for origination and destination points. Does anyone have a schedule which would indicate approximately when these trains would pass through Harrisburg, Pa.? (These trains were introduced after the date -- 1952 -- of the freight schedule on Keystone Crossings.) Also, anyone have a quick way to tell me the symbols of all freights that would have passed THROUGH Harrisburg circa 1954? (NOTE: Not Enola, but Harrisburg, as in the Columbia Branch.) Am developing a grid of all traffic passing through the Harrisburg passenger station area for September, 1954. Already have all westbound and northbound passenger trains entered. Includes movements of cars between Washington sections to mainline sections. Excludes movements of REA and engine changes. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TrucTrain Routing Date: Mon, 27 Jul 98 10:39:04 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1359 Apending my earlier post regarding the initiation of TrucTrain service in 1954... I'm used to the Conrail era, where TrucTrains come into Harrisburg via the ex-Reading RoW, then proceed north to Rockville and westward on the PRR main... In 1954, how were TrucTrains routed west from New York and Philly? Did they go via Columbia Branch and up through Harrisburg? Or did they take the Atglen & Susquehanna from Parkesburg to Enola? Or did they head towards Baltimore and come up the Columbia & Port Deposit and changeover to the A&S and on up to Enola? Being only 35, I've rarely seen TrucTrains in Enola, hence my hastey assumption that they passed through Harrisburg in '54. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:38:01 EDT Subject: [PRR] Decals Content-Length: 711 Hi all, I just bought an ALPS 1000 printer that looks like an answer to color and white decals. It prints dry, metallic, white, etc. See: http://www.alpsusa.com/cgibin/var/alpsusa/index.html Can anyone tell me where to get PRR fonts? Is Times New Roman close for PRR bridges, etc.? Thanks, Jerry ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:26:00 -0700 From: Bob Jones Subject: [PRR] Brill cars Content-Length: 1052 Hi all; I've been lurking here on the side enjoying the conversations and have a request. I would like to build a model of a 1920-1940 Brill Car as depicted in the July Model Railroader but need more info, scale drawings etc. As I understand it, the PRR had quite a few of these in different lengths and engine configurations which only helps to confuse things. The one I am most interested in is the 65 footer. If anyone can assist me in this endeavour, I would be most appreciative. Feel free to contact me off the group at bocynjo@direct.ca if you prefer not to clutter up the band with "trolley talk". cheers; Bob Jones ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roger P. Hensley" Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:16:42 +0000 Subject: Re: [PRR] Decals Content-Length: 1039 > From: > Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:38:01 EDT > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Decals > Can anyone tell me where to get PRR fonts? Is Times New Roman close for PRR > bridges, etc.? > Thanks, > Jerry Try Railroad Roman from the Cyberspace World Railroad http://www.mcs.net/~dsdawdy/Fonts/products.html Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org === http://ecicnet.org/~rhensley/cidwelco.html ===================== === Homepage of the Central Indiana Division, Midwest Region NMRA == ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Decals Date: Mon, 27 Jul 98 11:25:20 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1554 On 7/27/98 10:38 AM, ARRJERRY@aol.com (ARRJERRY@aol.com) wrote: >Can anyone tell me where to get PRR fonts? Let us all know, if you find out! The PRR modified many fonts; they don't exactly match any current-day PostScript typefaces that I am aware of. For instance, the PRR's Craw Clarendon is not Adobe's Clarendon. Nor does Futura match Adobe Futura. Pay particular attention to the serifs. Your satisfaction using these readily available fonts must be tempered against to your personal level of "rivet counting". I work in a PostScript pre-press shop. Of the 5,000+ fonts at my disposal, none are exact matches. With a good set of printed samples, however, I can have it created. Problem is, I've never seen large, truly "clean" originals from which to work from. >Is Times New Roman close for PRR >bridges, etc.? I've never seen the type specs for bridges. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:21:39 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Decals Content-Length: 1157 There's a Cadrail font for PRR lettering at the Sandia Software site: http://www.sandiasoftware.com/signs.htm This is the font in the "Builder's Compendium: Pennsylvania Railroad Standard Maintenance of Way Plans" This was the font used on signs--probably bridges as well. This web page also describes how to make signs using Cadrail. John Keel In a message dated 98-07-27 11:02:26 EDT, ARRJERRY@aol.com writes: << Hi all, I just bought an ALPS 1000 printer that looks like an answer to color and white decals. It prints dry, metallic, white, etc. See: http://www.alpsusa.com/cgibin/var/alpsusa/index.html Can anyone tell me where to get PRR fonts? Is Times New Roman close for PRR bridges, etc.? Thanks, Jerry >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:01:15 -0400 (EDT) From: alcoman Subject: Re: [PRR] Decals Content-Length: 1829 Well here at railfan.net we just got an ALPS-1300 and it is great. As far as PRR fonts go the main font was called Craw Clarendon, Railroad Roman is close but not quite. We are working on building a True Type PRR font now. When we have it done we will release it to the world! On Mon, 27 Jul 1998 ARRJERRY@aol.com wrote: > Hi all, > I just bought an ALPS 1000 printer that looks like an answer to color and > white decals. It prints dry, metallic, white, etc. See: > http://www.alpsusa.com/cgibin/var/alpsusa/index.html > Can anyone tell me where to get PRR fonts? Is Times New Roman close for PRR > bridges, etc.? > Thanks, > Jerry > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > William J. Enser Co-Network Administrator Technical Support & Validations alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System X2 & K56flex Access www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMUD bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net - ZUHnet Buffalo, NY IRC Server ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Stephen R. Sejda" Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Schedules / Harrisburg PA Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 16:40:04 -0400 Content-Length: 2897 Hi Jerry, According to my 1959 Freight Schedule Book it looks like LCL-7 (Frankford Jct., Phila. to Crestline) was the only one of the 3 that stopped at Harrisburg. (LCL 1&2 were via Enola). LCL-7 arrived at Harrisburg (State) @ 2:00 AM with instructions to "Pick up TrucTrain cars and merchandise and forwarder cars for Crestline and beyond, including Toledo and Detroit". The departure time was Harrisburg (Banks) @ 3:00 AM. The 1959 book also shows LCL-9 stopping there. I'm not sure if this train existed in your time period or not but if you want info on this train let me know. Steve Sejda ---------- > From: Jerry > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: [PRR] Freight Schedules / Harrisburg PA > Date: Monday, July 27, 1998 8:55 AM > > Just picked up a brochure from when the Pennsy introduced TrucTrain > service, June 1954. There were initially three trains: 2 westbound and 1 > eastbound, designated LCL-1, LCL-7, and LCL-2 respectively. > > The brochure includes departure and arrival times for origination and > destination points. Does anyone have a schedule which would indicate > approximately when these trains would pass through Harrisburg, Pa.? > (These trains were introduced after the date -- 1952 -- of the freight > schedule on Keystone Crossings.) > > Also, anyone have a quick way to tell me the symbols of all freights that > would have passed THROUGH Harrisburg circa 1954? (NOTE: Not Enola, but > Harrisburg, as in the Columbia Branch.) > > Am developing a grid of all traffic passing through the Harrisburg > passenger station area for September, 1954. Already have all westbound > and northbound passenger trains entered. Includes movements of cars > between Washington sections to mainline sections. Excludes movements of > REA and engine changes. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com > Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com > The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry and Phyllis Morgan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Anyone Out Here? Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 15:36:19 -0400 Content-Length: 1918 Actually, Jerry, I just got back from Singapore. I was there on company business. I accidentally learned a little about Shipping Containers -- the ones that go from ship to train to semi truck, and the cranes that handle them. The cranes at least were developed for the harbor at Singapore. Quite a place Singapore, but not enough trains. Larry Morgan -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Sent: Friday, July 17, 1998 10:06 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Anyone Out Here? Sniff, sniff... Do you guys all leave me in here alone? Is everyone on vacation? Dag, 250+ subscribers and only five posts yesterday and one today (mine!). Okay, did you hear about Norfolk Southern's plan to "daylight" the Allegheny Mountains and bypass Horseshoe Curve? That oughta get a rise out of y'all, and it's not even April! ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 16:29:35 -0500 From: "Laird, Bill (GWise)" Subject: [PRR] NMRA Reports? Content-Length: 675 Date: 07/27/1998 10:27 pm (Monday) From: Bill Laird To: INET.MAIL:"PRR-Talk@dsop.com" Subject: NMRA Reports? Anyone on the list attend the NMRA convention and show last week? How about a report. What new products were announced and/or shown? Bill Laird Houston, Texas bill.laird@coastalcorp.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Stephen R. Sejda" Subject: [PRR] eBay "Heads Up"... Bowser K4 Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 17:41:07 -0400 Content-Length: 525 Anybody looking for a Bowser K4? I found one on eBay at this link: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=22189806 Happy Shopping! Steve Sejda ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 19:12:42 EDT Subject: [PRR] Kansas City Content-Length: 3850 Been gone, so don't know if anyone else posted their findings at the national. Here are mine: Diesels: Stewart VO-1000 will be December earliest in undec. Roco BF-16 same schedule. Will follow the FP7 this fall. The frame looks the same as the old Model Power, but motor is a 5-pole skew-wound armature version. Smaller, so it allows for a PC board with DCC socket and light mounting. Only minor changes to the shell. Cleaned up parting lines, punched out the number board openings, grillwork looks a little better. Wheels actually look like they resemble a prototype or RP25 contour versus the stamped out pie tins on the earlier versions. First run will include PRR DGLE in single stripe scheme. If successful, they hope to do another run with 5-stripe. When I asked about the green, the guy said, "Yeah, I know, almost black" Looks promising:-). Steam: Rumor is that ALCO will produce helix humper for T1 (any of you guys who know ALCO confirm?). Bowser feels those motors are not rugged enough to last,but the DC71 has a 1.5 amp stall current and I really don't want to fit 2 decoders plus a sound system in theT1 (Yeah, I know I could use Soundtraxx, but I already have the Dallee T1 version). Speaking of sound, bought a Soundtraxx EBT K37 decoder for my M1--sounds good enough to me rather than waiting another 5 years, if ever, for the genuine article. Will use the D&RGW unit for my K4 when I can afford another sound unit. Again, close enough while we wait (Soundtraxx is just easier than Dallee to install and allows all functions to operate simultaneously). Passenger cars. IHC new cars were on display. No Pennsy prototypes, but nothing exciting otherwise, either. Probably will make some other RR modelers happy, but seem to be rather obscure prototypes to me. It may be my imagination, but the fluting seems a little shallow, but I hesitate to criticize --maybe it is scale and others have been overscale. I was a little intrigued by the fluted version in UP for the run-through Pullman in the 1950 era. Freight cars: Bowser F31a and GSH were on display. Look good for mass production models. Bought a Stewart X37B. Of course, usual great work there. Same for Westerfield GLE (already bought from Liberty). Not to start rumors, but he had beautiful SF and UP stockcars. Says K7 is next. Just starting and no promises, but dare we hope for next year's PRRT&HS convention? Westerfield still has two modelrs (on this list?) working on master for an X23. Difficult car and long way off, but one of my favorites. Would love to replace my Ambroid kit with a state of the art version. Yours truly bought an older 1-in-1000 X41b kit at silent auction for $5. Sorry to ramble,but can't sign off without a rave about being fortunate to operate on Doug Taylor's PRR layout with the Operations SIG for 4 hours. A John Armstrong plan. He has really nailed the PRR from Harrisburg (hidden) to Crestline (hidden). What a thrill to take pull into Altoona with an 18 car passenger train, add the steam helper and go up the curve, following a full-working position-light signal system! Meet another train downgrade as well as a snapper set of centipedes returning light (long sigh). Only thrill bigger was runing a 12 inch to the foot ex-B&O GP9 on the Belton, Grandview, and Kansas City RR. 20 minutes in the engineers seat on a mile of track back and forth at 10 mph. Now I will have to scrap my HO :-). Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 19:47:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Kansas City Content-Length: 1228 On Mon, 27 Jul 1998 Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > Stewart VO-1000 will be December earliest in undec. This is good news, but I doubt they'll be that early; The C628 probably won't be in stores til September. > Roco BF-16 same schedule. Will follow the FP7 this fall. The frame looks the > same as the old Model Power, but motor is a 5-pole skew-wound armature > version. Smaller, so it allows for a PC board with DCC socket and light > mounting. ... > First run will include PRR DGLE in single stripe scheme. If successful, they > hope to do another run with 5-stripe. When I asked about the green, the guy > said, "Yeah, I know, almost black" Looks promising:-). Disappointing. I was hoping they'd do the 5 stripe first, since that's what I really want. > Bought a Stewart X37B. Of course, usual great work there. Gotta get some... -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 21:04:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Kansas City Content-Length: 1010 In a message dated 98-07-27 19:37:22 EDT, I wrote: << Rumor is that ALCO will produce helix humper for T1 (any of you guys who know ALCO confirm?). Bowser feels those motors are not rugged enough to last,but the DC71 has a 1.5 amp stall current and I really don't want to fit 2 decoders plus a sound system in theT1 (Yeah, I know I could use Soundtraxx, but I already have the Dallee T1 version). >> So there is no misunderstanding, I personally have found the two heliix humpers I own to run fine and have had no problems with them. I will buy another for my K4 and will buy two for the T1 if they become available. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Where are the Panhandle Pages? Date: Tue, 28 Jul 98 09:01:37 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 794 Anyone have the URL for Tom V.'s "Panhandle Page"? I have it as http://members.aol.com/lineswest/index.html, but AOL returns an error. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] WinLok Date: Tue, 28 Jul 98 11:02:40 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 984 Anyone on the list running WinLok software to control DCC? Out of those, anyone running it under Virtual PC emulation on a Macintosh? For those who don't know, this is Windoze software to control locos & routes and monitor block detection. Pretty cool stuff. Provides on-screen display that looks like a real CTC board. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:05:13 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] N4 cabin kit - HO Content-Length: 2413 Hi all, I recently discovered that a gentleman in Tuskeegee Alabama has purchased a laser cutting machine and WOW does he do nice work...first "kit" is an N-scale structure - windows come in 3 parts!. He will do "custom" work, and I was wondering if there was any interest in an offering of the one and only N4 cabin car? One suggestion was a "club" sponsored kit (eg PRRT&HS, York Chapter etc...) - think there's any interest there? It will cost $500 to set up the masters, and the estimated cost is about $30/kit (no trucks and couplers). Alternatively, I'm happily scratchbuilding an N4 (well, contemplating the first cut anyway)...after all - you'll only need ONE! Also, I think we can work off the plans in MR from a few years ago, but blueprints would be better. Do they exist for the N4? Where can I find them? How can I find out if they are in the PRRT&HS archives, or at Strasburg? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great literary works in Braille. ******************************************************************************** Announcing PRRMO The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry and Phyllis Morgan" Subject: [PRR] St. Louis Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:37:17 -0400 Content-Length: 1038 I am planning a short trip with my wife to St. Louis in late August. Any suggestion for PRR related activities. We would like information about: former PRR sites, especially those that are still standing, good places to watch trains, especially former PRR locations, museums with former PRR equipment - the national transportation museum is not mentioned in tourists guides and any information would be useful, railroad bridges across the Mississippi or Missouri, especially former PRR bridges, Alton, Illinois, where we will actually stay, and PRR connections if there are any, anything else this group might suggest. Thanks in advance, Larry Morgan ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:23:18 EDT Subject: [PRR] Any Help At All Content-Length: 1876 Hi PRR Fans, I realize I have repeated this request but hoped someone that could help missed it the first time. I have been unable to find more pictures that help and I would like to model the Curve reasonably correct. I am now "hard shelling" Horseshoe Curve on my RR and would appreciate any help you can give me. I have looked hard to find an elevated picture of the Curve and found one in the soft cover book; RAILROAD COLOR HISTORY PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD by Mike Schafer & Brian Soloman. I am modeling the late 50's and hope the picture on page 21 is close. Following are my main questions: 1-Would anyone guess the approx. date of the picture? 2-Has anyone seen a better or similar picture? 3-Was the horseshoe on the hillside cement or stones? 4-What class cabin car was on display? 5-To the right of the "gift shop" building there appears to be round cement area connected by a walkway. What is the black object in the center of the circle? 6-Do the stairs (stones) start up at the right of the cement circle? 7- What path do the stairs take? It looks like their may be several landings connected by paths? 8-It appears the steps end at the top just left of the horseshoe? 9-What is the small building 1/4 the way up the hill on the right side? Was it a rest stop? 10-At what date was the horseshoe rendition added to the bottom step Entrance? Thanks for any help you can give. Jerry ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TAN: LISTMASTER QUERY (again) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 98 14:40:43 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 922 Tried another shot in the dark this morning... Has anyone received dupes of any messages that were SENT AFTER 7:30 a.m. TODAY (7/28)? Be sure to check the SENT date and time, not the date and time you received it. Respond direct, not to the list. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 98 15:05:27 CST Subject: [PRR] New PRR video Content-Length: 705 Hi, gang, I recently noticed an ad from Mark I Video for two new PRR tapes. Vol. I was eastern and electric; Vol. II had Horseshoe and steam. Anyone seen these? How are they? Inquiring minds want to know. PRR Forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TAN: Web Hosting Date: Tue, 28 Jul 98 15:00:58 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1545 I've updated my web hosting programs. What I've been promoting is now "Deluxe Service". It costs $20 per month but now offers access to Site Search indexing, Database Publishing, and many other bells and whistles. I'm adding a Basic Service which is only $5 per month but doesn't offer as much and only 5MB of space (vs. 50MB). This is ideal for someone who already has a local access account but their ISP doesn't quite offer enough web space to meet their needs (many only provide 1-2MB). This service is designed to be a low-cost intermediate step until a site grows large enough to warrant a higher cost. Either are available as a subdomain of PENNSYRR.COM if Pennsy-related; otherwise via DSOP.COM. Complete details available at http://www.dsop.com/webhosting.html. Proceeds help offset operating costs of "PRR-Talk" and "Keystone Crossings". Thank you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:30:02 -0400 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] TrucTrain Routing Content-Length: 3338 Jerry and the List, I remember lots of TV traffic through Mount Joy. We moved to Mount Joy in 1969. One of my favorite places in Mount Joy was the crossing at the Florin Feeds plant. I spent many a wonderful hour there watching what was left of The Fleet and the TVs roll by. This was on the passenger main (Amtrak) We now live in what's called Shoe Factory Row, my back yard is up against the Amtrak main. The old timers here, tell me of long trains all night long. When we first moved in (1988) Conrail was still using the Trenton Cut off and sending most of the west bound stuff via the old PRR routing. When the current RDG route was completed in late 88 early 89, the traffic dried up over night and the A&S was torn up shortly thereafter. We (my wife and I) spent many Saturdays and Sundays at what is called Turkey Point on the Susquehanna, right around what was CP Port on Conrail. This area hadn't changed much since the PRR put it in. I don't recall seeing any TVs on either the A&S or Port Deposit branch. Most of the Sat and Sunday traffic was general stuff with an occasional coal train. I would guess that early Conrail, and PC practice followed that of the PRR in that they ran the TVs up the Passenger main. Since they always had plenty of power, I don't think this was a problem. Just another little side trip, I do remember a TV slamming through the Lancaster station in PC days. I always wondered why the two through tracks in the middle of the station, I knew real fast what they were for. cos Jerry wrote: > Apending my earlier post regarding the initiation of TrucTrain service in > 1954... > > I'm used to the Conrail era, where TrucTrains come into Harrisburg via > the ex-Reading RoW, then proceed north to Rockville and westward on the > PRR main... > > In 1954, how were TrucTrains routed west from New York and Philly? > > Did they go via Columbia Branch and up through Harrisburg? > > Or did they take the Atglen & Susquehanna from Parkesburg to Enola? > > Or did they head towards Baltimore and come up the Columbia & Port > Deposit and changeover to the A&S and on up to Enola? > > Being only 35, I've rarely seen TrucTrains in Enola, hence my hastey > assumption that they passed through Harrisburg in '54. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com > Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com > The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] TrucTrain Routing Date: Tue, 28 Jul 98 20:07:02 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1469 On 7/28/98 6:30 PM, Wayne S. Betty (wsbcos@cris.com) wrote: >I remember lots of TV traffic through Mount Joy. We moved to Mount Joy in >1969. One of my favorite places in Mount Joy was the crossing at the Florin Give the man the gold medal!!! Finally, someone that can substantiate TrucTrain traffic on the passenger main prior to the Conrail merger!!! Okay, we've got it set in 1969...now if we can just back it up. I need 1954. Since nobody has been able to find an ETT for 1954 for the Philly Division, maybe those with ETT's for the Philly Division later in the 1950's can take a look at the schedule for any of the TrucTrains. At introduction, the symbols were LCL-x. Later someone mentioned them as TT-x. Follow the route: do STATE or ROY appear? If so, they went the passenger main through Harrisburg. Do COLA or CLY appear? If so, they went the A&S. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] More on Truc Train Routing Date: Tue, 28 Jul 98 20:20:51 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1503 Don't have the Philly Division ETT as noted in an earlier post, but since I do have the Philadelphia Terminal Division ETT from 9/26/54, I thought I'd take gander. LCL-3 is shown on the westward/sothward table on page 168, with times at Holmes, Overbrook, and Paoli. LCL-2 is shown on the eastward/northward table on page 169, with times at Paoli, Frankford Junction, and Holmes. I don't know where the other locations are specifically, but the Paoli reference DEFINITELY places the TrucTrains on the passenger line in the Philly Terminal Division. As for Harrisburg? Still could've cut off onto the A&S at PARK, or onto the Columbia Branch at Lancaster, but I'd bet it stayed on the passenger main at this point. Another observation: The announcement of TT service in June 1954 shows two westbounds: LCL-1 and LCL-7. Looks like maybe service didn't take off and the two were combined into LCL-3. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:49:24 EDT Subject: [PRR] Brunswick Green Content-Length: 1305 Pennsy folks, Could anyone fill me in as to the origin of the good old term "Brunswick green"? (Yeah, yeah, I know about DGLE. Never touch the stuff.) For a long time I've been nagged by the notion that there's some connection, however tenuous to Friedrich Wilhelm's Schwarze Schar. Who can fill a guy in on the early history of the color? Also, I and many others have often noticed a consistent contrast in the color on different Pennsy units. I remember switchers and road switchers as always looking black. Photos seem to bear this out. Ditto with EMD freight cabs. But photos of some Alco cabs and all Sharks in original paint always look much greener. Is this a slight difference in the paint mixes or what? Same with GG1's. Cam anyone help out? Thanks, Barry Peltier PS--I'm sending this again cause my email is acting kinda strange and I don't know if my earlier try is gonna git picked up. Sorry for the complication. BP ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 00:10:27 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] MP-54 kits Content-Length: 2642 Hello folks.... I'm passing along this info in case any of you all are interested in this. Mr Eugene Chase of Middletown N.J. used to be on this list a while back but got off of it due to the huge amount of e-mail he got. Before he did he sent me a e-mail one night asking me if i would be interested in a kit he was making. He sent me one free on the condition that i keep him updated and evaluate it for him. This i did. He sent me a kit for a PRR MP-54 class suburban coach. I back dated it a bit to build the P-54 steam hauled version of the class. The first kit had some faults,i let him know and he has improved his kit. These kits are based on the old Walthers kits for these cars. He uses some type of resin castings instead of the old cast metal the Walthers cars were made from. Everything is included in the kits except for the trucks and couplers(although he has reproduced the roller bearing type sideframes for the trucks) He has told me that on his MP-54 powered cars he has used a old AHM RS-2 power truck. The castings are very clean and neat(at least on the last one i got.) He next sent me a improved kit for the (MPB) PB-54 B car.(PB-54 C has the longer seating section up to the baggage door). this is the combine car. He is also...(if i'm correct) working on the straight baggage version. This would be a MB 62 class. You can build either the MP-54 coach,P-54 coach,MPB-54 combine or the PB-54 combine from the kits he has now. I don't know how many he plans on making,but i thought if anyone wants to have a model of this class of car you could contact him about it. I myself plan on getting four more of the MP-54 coaches.(one more for a P-54 for a three car steam hauled local and three electric MP-54 cars for a Baltimore- Washington local train.) To me this is a good alternative to buying brass or kit bashing. If anyone is interested i'll pass along his e-mail address and snail mail address so you can contact him about them. Just e-mail me at the below. Hank Mummert bubbles@visi.net Til Later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 02:10:45 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Brunswick Green Content-Length: 2045 Barry, The reason that a lot (or nearly all) of us on PRR-talk refer to the color which all Pennsy engines were painted until 1952 and freight units after 1952 Dark Green Locomotive Enamel or DGLE is that is what the color is called in official PRR documents, mixed in its paint shops and applied to its locomotives. Many of us enjoy the research involved in accurately modeling a historical prototype, viewing ourselves as historians as modeler. We use DGLE instead of Brunswick Green, shifter instead of switcher, cabin car instead of caboose because these were the terms used by the prototype railroad we choose to model. Yes, there's a bit of snobbery involved. The use of jargon is one in which people sharing similar interests can set themselves apart from the rest. Any railroad could have a Brunswick Green switcher pulling a caboose but if you hear some talking about a DGLE shifter running light pulling a cabin car, you have no doubt that you're in the presence of a SPF, a serious Pennsy fan. Likewise, most SPFs would quickly point out that Pennsy engines were painted black only after the merger when the NYC color scheme was ascendant. For much of it history the paints used on PRR were mixed locally allowing variations in color. I believe that Brunswick Green was a commercial paint that was British in origin and was used by the Atlantic Great Eastern Railway, a British railroad with close corporate ties to the Pennsylvania RR management in the late 19th Century. Given the close ties between the British monarchy and Germany from the early 1700s to the First World It is likely that there is a Teutonic link with the color. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 03:16:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Brunswick Green/ DGLE Content-Length: 834 Tom, thanks for a nice, polite discussion....now if I could only convinvce the non-PRR people that this was really true..!!!....I watched PRR units next to PC units...and PC / NYC units were pure BLACK, and the difference could be discerned. Pre-merger re-paints with the the new, larger numbers also came through in BLACK . An Alco switcher...ooops, shifter....i think 9476 (?) came out of the Meadows in 1967 in the 'new' scheme. I have pictures, somewhere....Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Stephen R. Sejda" Subject: Re: [PRR] TrucTrain Routing Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 07:00:53 -0400 Content-Length: 1761 ---------- > From: Jerry > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] TrucTrain Routing > Date: Tuesday, July 28, 1998 8:07 PM > I've got a 1959 Freight Schedule Book that shows LCL-7 & LCL-9 Passing STATE, stopping in Harrisburg, and passing BANKS. If you want more info on these trains let me know. > Since nobody has been able to find an ETT for 1954 for the Philly > Division, maybe those with ETT's for the Philly Division later in the > 1950's can take a look at the schedule for any of the TrucTrains. > > At introduction, the symbols were LCL-x. Later someone mentioned them as > TT-x. > > Follow the route: do STATE or ROY appear? If so, they went the passenger > main through Harrisburg. Do COLA or CLY appear? If so, they went the A&S. > > ----------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton > "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > ----------------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TAN: LISTMASTER UPDATE Date: Wed, 29 Jul 98 08:17:46 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1287 The problem of random duplication of messages has been tracked down. It is a complex issue which involves the coexistence of two different types of Internet servers within one domain. It is not a "bug", but an "anomoly". I am now working with the programmers at both software publishers to resolve the problem. You may discontinue sending in duplication reports as we are now able to monitor their occurance. The duplication should now be reduced, though not gone. It especially effects subscribers at domains that have multiple mail servers (e.g. America Online, msn.com, etc.). Thank you for your patience. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 8:12:46 -0500 From: "Laird, Bill (GWise)" Subject: [PRR] TAN: LISTMASTER UPDATE -Reply Content-Length: 857 Date: 07/29/1998 02:11 pm (Wednesday) From: Bill Laird To: INET.MAIL("PRR-Talk@dsop.com") Subject: [PRR] TAN: LISTMASTER UPDATE -Reply In the software business we sometimes try to pass these off as "features". >>> PRR-Talk@dsop.com 07/29/98 07:17am >>> The problem of random duplication of messages has been tracked down. It is a complex issue which involves the coexistence of two different types of Internet servers within one domain. It is not a "bug", but an "anomoly". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:26:32 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: X37b/ KC Content-Length: 1425 In a message dated 98-07-29 08:31:55 EDT, Barry Peltier writes: << Sorry to bother you on this list, but I don,t have your email address handy. Anyway, seems like your KC posting over on prr-talk made mention of some of the new products displayed at the convention, and one of them was (if I remember right) a Stewart Pennsy X37 (B?). I haven't been keeping up on the hobby mags like I used to, but I was thinking that Stewart basiclly made hoppers.Are they producing box cars now? If so, can you tell me a bit about this car? My sometimes moribund curiosity always perks up at the mention of Pennsy stuff, particularly from an unexpected source. >> Sorry to post to two lists, but need to clear up my typographical error which you found before it gets perpetuated, . Got my S's mixed up. The beautiful X37b (and X37a) kits are by Sunshine Models, not Stewart, and are their usual flat resin kits. Built in 1938-40, there were still 2946 in the X-37series in revenue service in 1960. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] MP-54 kits From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 98 11:23:35 -0400 Content-Length: 960 Hank, I would be interested. However, I would like a little more info on these kits. The original(second version) Walthers had stamped metal sides. Is he doing that, or are all the parts resin castings? The Walthers car was several feet too long, not as bad as the first version, but still not right. The Walthers headlight was way too small. Has he corrected this? Do you or he have any more details to tell about this interesting project. Are you aware of Funero & Camerlengo's plans to re-introduce the LIRR version of these cars? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:11:46 -0500 From: Dave Pfeiffer Subject: Re: [PRR] TrucTrain Routing Content-Length: 1307 Jerry, I don't claim to be an expert on the PRR anywhere including Harrisburg, but looking at many PRR diesel era photos over the years (Morning Sun diesel series for example), it seems to me that there are always pictures of TrucTrains on Rockville. Except for maybe some going to/from Buffalo, that means they went through Harrisburg. Yet, even if they went through Harrisburg and past STATE and ROY (if I have a correct understanding of the location of ROY), they could still have traveled the A&S freight line. My gut feel is that they went the passenger line, and I believe there are pictures in 1 or more Morning Sun diesel books of TrucTrains on the passenger main west of Parkesburg. I will have to look again to verify that. Dave >Follow the route: do STATE or ROY appear? If so, they went the passenger >main through Harrisburg. Do COLA or CLY appear? If so, they went the A&S. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] TrucTrain Routing Date: Wed, 29 Jul 98 13:10:49 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 2512 On 7/29/98 11:11 AM, Dave Pfeiffer (dpfeiffr@popmail.voicenet.com) wrote: > I don't claim to be an expert on the PRR anywhere including >Harrisburg, but looking at many PRR diesel era photos over the years >(Morning Sun diesel series for example), it seems to me that there are >always pictures of TrucTrains on Rockville. Except for maybe some going >to/from Buffalo, that means they went through Harrisburg. Present day, yes, they always go over Rockville. The question was what the routing was in 1954, before there was even a TT terminal in Harrisburg. There was initially only TT service in New York, Philly, Pittsburgh, and Chicago. > > Yet, even if they went through Harrisburg and past STATE and ROY (if >I have a correct understanding of the location of ROY), they could still >have traveled the A&S freight line. My gut feel is that they went the >passenger line, and I believe there are pictures in 1 or more Morning Sun >diesel books of TrucTrains on the passenger main west of Parkesburg. I will >have to look again to verify that. The 1959 Freight Schedules on Mark Bej's site do show STATE. So as of that date, they did go through Harrisburg. Another response placed them in Mount Joy (between Lancaster and Middletown) which is also on the passenger line. I believe that, since they were limited stop and expedited cargos, that they always took the passenger line. Unless I hear otherwise, that is how I will model. The initial trains held one trailer per car...and I believe they were only 25' trailers. A photo in the intro booklet I just bought shows one of the cars/trailers close up. The flat is a Class F30. In fact, there is a photo on Rob Schoenburg's site of an F30 with a trailer. See http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=PR475462.JPG&fr=cl ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:39:29 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Truc Trains Content-Length: 1616 Hello Folks... Here is the information i have from my April 28th,1957 PRR ETT from the arranged freight train service listings..... westward-southward.... TT-1 (4) at Holmes 1:00am Frankford Jct. 1:25 am Paoli 2:20 am Day 4:25 am Banks 5:25 am TT-3(12) at MA 11:01 pm State 2:45 am Banks 4:00 am Note: handwritten note in timetable noted TT-3 did'nt run on mondays or saturdays eastward-northward.... TT-2(19) at Banks 7:45 pm Day 8:45 pm Paoli 10:50 pm Frankford Jct.11:45 pm Holmes 12:10 am TT-4(1) at Banks 10:15 pm Enola 11:15 pm Paoli 1:45 am Frankford Jct. 2:40 am Holmes 3:05 am Note this train had one of those pasted changes in the timetable and the times given above were the last shown...It showed a time of 12:15 am at Day with the rest of the times the same under the pasting. And incase anyone wants to know....the same ETT lists these LCL trains...LCL-7,LCL-9,LCL-5 twice? ,LCL-3, then LCL-2 Til Later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: David Carey Subject: [PRR] Brunswick green Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:50:40 -0600 Content-Length: 1950 Barry Peltier asked about the origin of "Brunswick green." Arthur Dubin's recent book Pullman Paint and Lettering Notebook (Kalmbach 1997), suggests that the term "Brunswick green" may not have been the product of a train enthusiast's fevered imagination. He says: A [Pullman] memo dated June 5, 1940, indicates that Caryl, a 12-1, was to be repainted with Glidden's locomotive dark green enamel, enhanced by four gold-leaf stripes. No reason is given, but the photo, taken September 1, 1942, carries the note "Painted Brunswick green for test." Pullman's Descriptive List of Cars of Sept. 1, 1942, notes that Caryl and three other cars of the same configuration, Birchwood, Calhoun, and Delaware, were also painted Brunswick green. The other three were repainted in 1942, and Delaware and Calhoun returned to Pullman's standard color in 1945 and 1946. Brunswick green is a green pigment consisting of a copper salt; in the railroad spectrum it is black, for all practical purposes. Pullman Paint and Lettering Notebook, at 44. The accompanying painting diagram, prepared contemporaneously by Pullman mechanical inspector Peter Falles, refers to the color variously as "Penna Locomotive Dark Green", "Locomotive Dark Green Mfg. by Glidden", "Loco Dark Green", and "Dark Green." Based on Pullman records, therefore, one rationally may infer that DGLE was commonly referred to as "Brunswick green" by professional railroaders as early as 1940, even though the term may never have appeared in Pennsylvania Railroad company literature. GDC ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:51:48 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] more Truc Train info Content-Length: 995 OK... I guessed the routing of these trains would'nt change much over the years. so on a hunch i looked the Truc Trains up in my 1968 PC ETT... It shows the then TT-6 at state 2:15 am,at cork 3:00 am,at park (parkersburg?) at 4:05 am ,Frankford Jct. at 6:15 am and at Millham at 7:25 am Hmmmm shows TT-8 at Banks 6:45 pm,at state 12:30 am,Cly at 1:50 am and strangely York at 2:30 am (Hmmm .Well dad did say that for a time they did run them on the N.C. because of clearances on the Port Road) Til Later H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Brunswick green Date: Wed, 29 Jul 98 14:36:29 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1507 On 7/29/98 1:50 PM, David Carey (dccareyd@ac1.co.ada.id.us) wrote: > The accompanying painting diagram, prepared contemporaneously by >Pullman mechanical inspector Peter Falles, refers to the color variously >as "Penna Locomotive Dark Green", "Locomotive Dark Green Mfg. by >Glidden", "Loco Dark Green", and "Dark Green." Let me go out on a limb here...if Glidden is the manufacturer, any chance they had a plant in a town called Brunswick? Or New Brunswick perhaps? Just wondering if, during field tests, it was referred to as "Brunswick Green" as in "that green from Brunswick". Or perhaps the guy's name who mixed it? Who knows, but it seems to have gotten an official -- though not Pennsy -- name. FWIW: I just checked www.glidden.com but did not get the paint company. Wanted to see if they had any "Brunswick" sites. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:38:48 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] LCL trains Content-Length: 1811 Ok here are the LCL times i have from my 1957 PRR ETT (Phila Region) arranged freight train service-westward-southward LCL-7(11) Jersey at 8:00 pm,Frankford Jct. at 8:30 pm,Overbrook at 9:40 pm, Paoli at 10:45 pm,Parkersburg at 11:05 pm,Cola at 12:05 am, Day at 1:00 am,Banks at 2:00 am. LCL-9(4) Holmes at 9:00 pm,Frankford Jct. at 9:45 pm,Overbrook at 10:45 pm, Paoli at 11:20 pm, State at 2:00 am,Banks at 3:15 am. LCL-5(4) Cres at 9:15 pm,Cola at 9:30 pm,Day at 10:30 pm (these are the only times shown for LCL-5 arranged freight train service-eastward-northward LCL-2(19) Banks at 9:15 pm,Day at 10:45 pm,Cola at 11:45,Parkersburg at 1:00 am,Paoli at 1:30 am,Frankford Jct. at 2:30 am, Holmes at 2:50 am. Note: Jerry...perhaps this would be a good time to place something to the effect what the Pennsy train symbols mean at the KC site... newbies don't know what some things mean...I know TT=Truc Train and LCL was the less than carload merchandise trains....but some (such as myself need to know what...say PG-5 was or MD-6 or BB-3...or BY-7 and so on...I know it had to do with the type of train and where it went and came from.(PE-5 would have been maybe a Pot Yard to Enola train) Til Later Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Michael DiMaio" Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:43:53 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Brunswick green Content-Length: 2820 Some much for DGLE. That and BG can be used for the name of the paint. I prefer the latter (BG). Flame away. From: David Carey To: "'Railroads - Pennsylvania'" Subject: [PRR] Brunswick green Date sent: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 11:50:40 -0600 > Barry Peltier asked about the origin of "Brunswick green." > > Arthur Dubin's recent book Pullman Paint and Lettering Notebook > (Kalmbach 1997), suggests that the term "Brunswick green" may not have > been the product of a train enthusiast's fevered imagination. He says: > > A [Pullman] memo dated June 5, 1940, indicates that Caryl, a > 12-1, was to be repainted with Glidden's locomotive dark green enamel, > enhanced by four gold-leaf stripes. No reason is given, but the > photo, taken September 1, 1942, carries the note "Painted Brunswick > green for test." Pullman's Descriptive List of Cars of Sept. 1, > 1942, notes that Caryl and three other cars of the same > configuration, Birchwood, Calhoun, and Delaware, were also painted > Brunswick green. The other three were repainted in 1942, and Delaware > and Calhoun returned to Pullman's standard color in 1945 and > 1946. Brunswick green is a green pigment consisting of a copper salt; in > the railroad spectrum it is black, for all practical purposes. > > Pullman Paint and Lettering Notebook, at 44. > > The accompanying painting diagram, prepared contemporaneously by > Pullman mechanical inspector Peter Falles, refers to the color variously > as "Penna Locomotive Dark Green", "Locomotive Dark Green Mfg. by > Glidden", "Loco Dark Green", and "Dark Green." > > Based on Pullman records, therefore, one rationally may infer > that DGLE was commonly referred to as "Brunswick green" by professional > railroaders as early as 1940, even though the term may never have > appeared in Pennsylvania Railroad company literature. > > GDC > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > Michael DiMaio, Ph.D. Department of Philosophy Salve Regina University Newport, RI 02920 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bud Kaiser Subject: [PRR] NMRA Convention Highlights Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:53:40 -0400 Content-Length: 6612 The convention was held in Kansas City this year and I thought that the event was one of the best conventions I have attended. For railfanning, it would be hard to beat KC for all around rail activity. We hardly ever saw rails that didn't have trains on them and most times you could look around whatever spot you were standing at and find three or four trains. I took a tour of the BNSF Argentine Yard and had a chance to see this massive yard up close. BTW, the BNSF guys call the UP the Great Yellow Peril, and the UP designation really stands for Unlimited Parking. Here are some PRR related highlights: Athearn/Highliner Athearn has bought the Highliner shells (or rights) and will be selling decorated F A and B units. They had both the A and B units there and they are beautiful. One exciting detail that should appeal to all SPFs is the separate pilots that are available in both freight and passenger styles for the A units. The developer of the Highliner shells will still sell undecorated versions of these models. He had a booth there and was anxious to talk about the models. He had shells and other parts there along with reworked Athearn power chassis. The overall details on all parts are outstanding. Who knows, this may be the year of the Highliner - either from Athearn or Highliner. C&BT Shops: Dick Schweiger had early mold samples of the X29b that looked fine although he had some problem in the molding process with the side sills. These units should be out by the end of the year if he gets the problem corrected. Unfortunately, IMHO, he is bringing the units to the market with molded-on ladders and grabs. We questioned him and he said that there is a bigger market for this version than with separate ladders and grabs - hard to believe that one. They will come undecorated, Circle and Shadow Keystone, Merchandise Service in 1947 and 1950 styles, and Keystone. He will also have the X29d models both shadowed and regular Keystone. He will also issue the "Don't Stand Me Still" version (August, 1955). All versions will come in six numbers. E-B Products: This company is marketing the old Lindberg sprung freight trucks in Andrews, Bettendorf, and Vulcan versions. These will be available with and without wheels, steel or brass axles, or just the side frame for those who want to put in your own wheels. The trucks also come regular black or weathered. The frame only style cost $20 for twelve pair sets. Bowser: They had both the F30 flat and the GS gon on display undecorated. EOY or sooner is forecast for these models. The work is typical Bowser freight car details and should fill a nice gap. Get the shot ready to fill the underframe of the flat car as it is really light. They claim that the new PRR tender is released although they didn't have one there as the did last year at the Madison convention. The T1 with all the extra detail they had sitting on a turntable was quite a picture. Kinda makes me sad to sell off my brass steamers. Model Railroad Stone Works: Bob Jans showed his previously released HO PRR stone arch bridges along with his new N scale 30 degree skewed, 4 arch, 2 3, and 4 track models. Alert! Alert! Jans will be releasing his modular sectoned kits for the Rockville Bridge in October. This kit will be for a 90 degree segmented arch 4 track model. Make it as long as you can/want! InterMountain: They had a flyer with an update on their F Unit project for F2 - F9. They reaffirmed their previous release date for the EOY. They haven't selected a drive unit yet but stay tuned. They have released a 60' wood deck flat in Trailer Train colors with a real wood deck cut from their new laser cutter. Looks like they will have 12 car numbers. BTW, they showed a model of the International Space Station that they are selling to industry. Fully detailed built-up models are available for $1000 (Boeing bought 100) You can also buy a scaled down (details) kit version for about $150. Hope this product will allow them to continue their high quality model RR business. LifeLike: They have announced the Proto 1000 line of cars and engines. The F3 A units announced have the same drive chassis as the Proto 2000 engines but are lower in price because the shells are all one piece with all molded-on details. I doubt that these will steal much business away from the 2000 series. They had the GP 20 and GP 7 models on display and they are typical P2K quality releases. The PRR GP7 will be issued in two numbers in DGLE. There is also a new line of P2K buildings. The first release is Moore & Co Warehouse which is a 18" x 5.75" two unit building. Looks like this line of buildings will be coming pre-painted and weathered. The first one is $60. Stewart Hobbies: Steve Stewart had two of the C-628 models running back and forth on a test track. This one will be another big seller and is anxiously awaited by many. The drive assembly will be the same as the FT units and will come with a DCC compatible board. Undecs will come in September with both single and dual sand fillers. October will bring the PRR and SP. BTW, the F will be returning. The Kato shells have now been released to Steve and he will be producing them in his factory. Tooling is progressing on the 50' plug door box for delivery in October or November. Undec VO 1000s are expected in December. It also looks like Stewart will be upgrading all his previously released models with the FT drive. PBL: I bought a couple of PBL's cutters for removing parts from sprues. They are the best you can buy. You can get one of these from other sources for about $12 but the really good ones are specially ground by PBL to various thicknesses. The thinnest one goes for $21, pricey, but good. Branchline; They showed their new tooling for the 50' Box cars in both single and double door versions. These come with three styles of ends and roofs. Nice looking cars. BTW, they claim the passenger cars to be released are their own tooling - I thought that they painted ConCor cars. They also have plans for a 40' AAR Box. Sorry for the length of this but there were a lot of new releases the PRR folks would be interested in. Bud Kaiser bkaiser@voicenet.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] fwd: Photos of PRR 2-10-4? Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:59:50 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 1217 Picked off the railroad list. Can anybody here help this guy out? Please reply to him, not to me. Dennis ------- Forwarded Message Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:10:35 EDT From: Jeff Jones Subject: Pennsylvania 2-10-4 Hi, I just signed on to the list and I was wondering if anyone had any information on Pennsylvania 2-10-4 borrowing from the Chesapeake and Ohio 2-10-4. There's plenty of pics and info on the C & O, but I'm having a hard time finding anything especially pics of the Penn version to compare the two. I'm building an O scale railroad using Pennsylvania as a mainline. Thanks in advance for any help you can give me. I am also seeking info and pics of very early EMDs E units and F units not E7s or E8s but the earlier ones (late 1930s). Thanks again, Jeff ------- End of Forwarded Message ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 18:05:52 -0400 From: "Robert L. Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] TrucTrain Routing Content-Length: 1610 Philadelphia Region ETT No. 1 for April 29, 1956 shows the following Arranged Freight Train Service having the symbol-types LCL-x or TT-x: LCL-1, LCL-2, LCL-3, LCL-5, LCL-7, TT-1, and TT-2. All the LCL's are shown operating via Cola (on the A&S) and Day (at the East End of Enola Yard). The listings for TT-1 and TT-2 do not mention Cola, but jump from Paoli to Day. Not sure what this implies. The PRR Through Freight Train Schedules as revised December 23, 1954 show the following trains of the above types: LCL-1, LCL-2, LCL-3, LCL-4, LCL-5, and LCL-7. There are no trains having the symbol-type TT-x. LCL-5 doesn't handle trailers and LCL-4 runs from East St. Louis to Pitcairn. The other four all operate via Day and have work at Enola, so it doesn't look like TrucTrains ran on the passenger main through Harrisburg in late 1954. All four include LCL Merchandise and Forwarder cars in their consists as well as trailers. Photocopies of the PRR 1954 through freight train schedules can be obtained from Dave Cramer, 2114 Sheridan Drive, Madison, WI 53704. Photocopies of the PRR 1936/7 through freight train schedules can be obtained from Chuck Blardone, 2886 Wimbledon Lane, Lancaster, PA 17601-1454. Bob Johnson ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:20:31 -0500 From: bobp@tsc.com (Bob Poortinga) Subject: Re: [PRR] Brunswick Green/ DGLE Content-Length: 610 I recently saw a picture of the Conrail OCS in Trains magazine. The locos are painted a very dark olive. Is this indeed DGLE? If not, how close is it? -- Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) Technology Service Corp. Bloomington, Indiana USA ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:35:35 +0100 From: "John H. Wright" Subject: Re: [PRR] Brunswick Green Content-Length: 3474 In message <4c55651a.35bebce7@aol.com>, LINESWEST@aol.com writes >I believe that Brunswick Green was a commercial paint that was British in >origin and was used by the Atlantic Great Eastern Railway, a British railroad >with close corporate ties to the Pennsylvania RR management in the late 19th >Century. Given the close ties between the British monarchy and Germany from >the early 1700s to the First World It is likely that there is a Teutonic link >with the color. Tom and all, Researching colours is a complicated part of the hobby and tends to get more complicated the more research one does. For twenty years or so I modelled the North Eastern Railway which existed as a seperate entity in North East England from 1854 to the grouping of 1923. The painting and lining of locos, carriages and wagons was extremely diverse in those far off days and for my sins, I had to carry out a fair amount of research into early paints and pigments. I'm writing here from my notes taken several years ago from a book on paints written around the turn of the century...... You are right with the German connection for the origin of Brunswick Green, both Brunswick and the similar green "Saxony" are linked to those areas of Germany where the minerals were extracted to make the constituent pigments. Brunswick Green (also known as chrome green or Prussian green) was made by mixing about 75% white (barytes or gypsum) with between 1 to 6% Prussian blue and 14 to 18% chrome yellow. It could be purchased in 4 shades....pale/medium/deep/extra deep....the lighter the green the better the quality of Prussian blue needed to be used. Although I may have shed some light on the origin of the term "Brunswick green", whether this has anything to do with Pennsylvania RR DGLE or not, I cannot say. Does any modeller this side of an assylum mix DGLE from white, yellow and blue? I mix a few drops of green in with black, but not much. On a grander scale did the PRR do the same? My photographs and books show hardly a hint of green on any PRR steam loco and as far as I'm concerned my models will reflect what I see rather than what I read. You've got me puzzled with the Atlantic Great Eastern Railway. We had a Great Eastern Railway that ran mainly from London (Liverpool St.) to Cambridge and Norwich and the East End of London, but its locos were dark blue. Perhaps you are refering to an earlier period, in mid- Victorian times when there were many tiny companies that eventually formed the major pre-grouping railways prior to 1923. The best known user of Brunswick green in the UK was the Great Western Railway but its shade was a medium green and much lighter than the PRR's DGLE. Regards, -- John H. Wright Washington Tyne & Wear England Visit the Newcastle & District Model Railway Society's web site at: http://www.jhwright.demon.co.uk/index.htm Descriptions and views of our layouts in: Z, N, HO (USA), HO (Continental), OO, P4, O Gauge and On16.5 Plus members' layouts and details of our exhibitions, news and events. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:17:18 EDT Subject: [PRR] BRUNSWICK GREEN Content-Length: 2447 Tom, Thanks for the input, and it's polite manner of delivery. But I'm afraid we're coming at the Pennsy from different directions. There is indeed a snobbery in using railfan terminology to describe things Pennsy, but that particular approach I personally disdain. Not that I'm not guilty of snobbery myself on the matter of the Pennsy. But mine is based on having come to love the P Company from first-hand experience, rather than on second hand methods. My dad was a fireman on the Pennsy, and I rode Chicago to Philley probably 60 times in the last 20 years before the PC disaster. And how about those Deleware Park trains outa 30th Street? Or thanksgiving, 1965, when the Morning Congo (or would a true afficinado say Congressional ?) headed down to Baltimore with 18 fluted cars and 3 dusty P70's hung on the tail for us Philley riders? And those Baldwins kicking around the Berks St freight house sure looked black. (I didn't say they were black. I said they looked black.) When a person has been around some one or something enough to feel some affection, there seems to me less need for formalities, and that's where my feelings for the Pennsy lay. Research is good, and a lot of fun too, but that's merely knowledge of the head and not of the heart. Kinda like the difference between reading war books and having been in the army. And that's something no amount of jargon can replace. By the way...Atlantic Great Eastern? Musta become part of the London & Northeastern (or would it be london Midland & Scottish?) I knew T.W. Powell became the Pennsy's London representative at London, Asiatic and American Co in the 1880's but not much more. lotta American stock bought and sold there because the English were the first to raise large public stock. Robert Fleming of Dundee, Scotland handled $2 million in Pennsy shares in 1 year about that time. Oh well, that gets back to my original question of the origin of Brunswick Green.(Which ironically originally came about from weathered black because of poor dyes, or so I'm told). I wonder. Barry P ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 18:54:56 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Steam for sale, or the long and short of it. From: padraice@juno.com (Patrick M Egan) Content-Length: 904 The following is for sale. If you are interested, email me. An old Bowser T1 kit with a genuine lead boiler for real pulling power is for sale. Kit price is $100.00. Has two motors, original tender kit, no superdetail kit. Also a Sunset A5 0-4-0 mint for $200.00. Pat Egan (no web access) _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:04:10 -0400 From: Chris Brandt Subject: Re: [PRR] Brunswick Green Content-Length: 662 John H. Wright wrote: The best known > user of Brunswick green in the UK was the Great Western Railway but its > shade was a medium green and much lighter than the PRR's DGLE. Didn't the Great Western Railway also use the Belpaire firebox ? -- Chris Brandt http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roger P. Hensley" Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:43:30 +0000 Subject: Re: [PRR] Brunswick Green/ DGLE Content-Length: 1312 > Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:20:31 -0500 > From: bobp@tsc.com (Bob Poortinga) > To: PRR-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Brunswick Green/ DGLE > Reply-to: bobp@tsc.com > I recently saw a picture of the Conrail OCS in Trains magazine. The locos > are painted a very dark olive. Is this indeed DGLE? If not, how close is > it? Long way away as I remember. :-) As it has been said Brunswick Green was almost black. What was the formula, 2 pints of medium green to 100 gallons of Black? (A joke, I say, that's a joke.) If I had to use a term, I would call it a dark Pullman Green. Now THAT ought to get a rise out of somebody. :-) :-) Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org === http://bsuvc.bsu.edu/~00rphensley/cidwelco.html ================ === The Railroads of Madison County, Indiana ======================= ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:41:51 -0700 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Brunswick Green Content-Length: 4549 Greetings, Sorry to take up so much bandwidth by repeating John's entire message, but it's for reference. When I was living in the UK about 16 years ago I purchased some Humbrol brand Brunswick Green to paint a loco I'd bought through the mail from the USofA--wrong move!! It turned out to be VERY MUCH LIGHTER--almost a light Pullman Green color [colour :-) ]. Now, I don't know if we're talking about the same stuff here, but I'd try to get a color sample before buying BG from a UK manufacturer, if at all possible, just to be sure. Charlie Fox John H. Wright wrote: > > In message <4c55651a.35bebce7@aol.com>, LINESWEST@aol.com writes > >I believe that Brunswick Green was a commercial paint that was British in > >origin and was used by the Atlantic Great Eastern Railway, a British railroad > >with close corporate ties to the Pennsylvania RR management in the late 19th > >Century. Given the close ties between the British monarchy and Germany from > >the early 1700s to the First World It is likely that there is a Teutonic link > >with the color. > Tom and all, > > Researching colours is a complicated part of the hobby and tends to get > more complicated the more research one does. For twenty years or so I > modelled the North Eastern Railway which existed as a seperate entity in > North East England from 1854 to the grouping of 1923. The painting and > lining of locos, carriages and wagons was extremely diverse in those far > off days and for my sins, I had to carry out a fair amount of research > into early paints and pigments. > > I'm writing here from my notes taken several years ago from a book on > paints written around the turn of the century...... > > You are right with the German connection for the origin of Brunswick > Green, both Brunswick and the similar green "Saxony" are linked to those > areas of Germany where the minerals were extracted to make the > constituent pigments. Brunswick Green (also known as chrome green or > Prussian green) was made by mixing about 75% white (barytes or gypsum) > with between 1 to 6% Prussian blue and 14 to 18% chrome yellow. It could > be purchased in 4 shades....pale/medium/deep/extra deep....the lighter > the green the better the quality of Prussian blue needed to be used. > > Although I may have shed some light on the origin of the term "Brunswick > green", whether this has anything to do with Pennsylvania RR DGLE or > not, I cannot say. Does any modeller this side of an assylum mix DGLE > from white, yellow and blue? > I mix a few drops of green in with black, but not much. On a grander > scale did the PRR do the same? My photographs and books show hardly a > hint of green on any PRR steam loco and as far as I'm concerned my > models will reflect what I see rather than what I read. > > You've got me puzzled with the Atlantic Great Eastern Railway. We had a > Great Eastern Railway that ran mainly from London (Liverpool St.) to > Cambridge and Norwich and the East End of London, but its locos were > dark blue. Perhaps you are refering to an earlier period, in mid- > Victorian times when there were many tiny companies that eventually > formed the major pre-grouping railways prior to 1923. The best known > user of Brunswick green in the UK was the Great Western Railway but its > shade was a medium green and much lighter than the PRR's DGLE. > > Regards, > -- > John H. Wright > Washington > Tyne & Wear > England > Visit the Newcastle & District Model Railway Society's web site at: > > http://www.jhwright.demon.co.uk/index.htm > > Descriptions and views of our layouts in: > Z, N, HO (USA), HO (Continental), OO, P4, O Gauge and On16.5 > Plus members' layouts and details of our exhibitions, news and events. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Newport & Sherman's Valley From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 02:11:26 EDT Content-Length: 758 I just picked up the new RMC.If I didn't know better I would have assumed that you were a grad assistant in the School of Economics at UCLA. Mike Allen _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TAN: LISTMASTER 7/30 8:40am Date: Thu, 30 Jul 98 08:41:24 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1285 Made some "tweaks" last night, around 8 p.m. It "appears" that the duplicates have subsided, but are not completely gone. This is a subjective question, but are those who were getting lots of dupes now getting fewer (or none)? (Those who were only getting a few may not notice as much of a difference.) If you are becoming frustrated and your mailbox is overflowing, please subscribe to the digest -- which doesn't contain the dupes -- until everything clears up. (Send "subscribe digest prr-talk" to "listserv@dsop.com". It will convert your subscription to digest mode.) Thanks for your ongoing patience. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:51:16 EDT Subject: [PRR] Brunswick Green Content-Length: 1761 In a message dated 98-07-29 19:29:49 EDT, John Wright writes: < My photographs and books show hardly a hint of green on any PRR steam loco and as far as I'm concerned my models will reflect what I see rather than what I read. > Here we go again! :-) Apparently DGLE is in the eyes of the beholder. All you have to do is see a Pennsy loco next to another RR's to tell you they are not black. When the Sante Fe 2-10-4's doubleheaded with the J1, the difference tended to show up. OTOH, I agree I have seen photos and videos when a unit was freshly shopped where it did sure look black when standing alone. But film and sky variations account for a lot of the differences. On a previous post, I observed that I thought the GP9 at Horseshoe Curve looked blueish, but someone correctly pointed out that the reflection of the "bluebird" sky of that day probably accounted for that. As previously discussed, my preference for weathered freight locos is about 60% grimy or weathered black and 40% DGLE (or Brunswick green as labelled). Can't find it now, but the photo of the new T1 with the first E7 combo in several books (I just had a chance to buy the original from a vendor at Kansas City) definitely shows them both to be dark green. But you are correct. Paint them the way YOU see them. My version of freight car color is decidedly on the red-orange side! Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:57:52 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Brunswick Green/ DGLE Content-Length: 790 In a message dated 98-07-30 05:12:27 EDT, Roger writes: << If I had to use a term, I would call it a dark Pullman Green. Now THAT ought to get a rise out of somebody. :-) :-) >> If you are referring to the Conrail E units, you probably are pretty close, but didn't one of the other railroads actually use a sort of dark olive green (the Reading or New Haven?) which was just a shade off of Pullman Green? Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Bowser F30 Date: Thu, 30 Jul 98 09:19:07 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1144 Has anyone taken a close look at the new Bowser F30a flat car? I'm looking to develop a Trailer Train for 1954. They ran on F30's, but I'm not sure what subclass. I don't believe their was a subclass specifically developed for TrucTrain until 1958. The Bowser F30a may suffice, and at $10 each is a deal. They also are offering a 12 car package which, if they do as other vendors do, will include 12 different road numbers. Now if someone would just make the PRR trailers! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 07:16:55 -0700 From: frank bagrash Subject: [PRR] Re: Brunswick Green Content-Length: 957 Hi, Charlie Fox wrote in a recent post about buying some Brunswick Green paint in the UK and finding that it was much too light. In the Loco Profile series (published in the UK) there is one issue in which the centerfold is a color rendition of a T-1. The color of the locomotive is rendered as almost lime green. I wonder if they used the UK version of Brunswick Green as the color model to copy rather than looking at some photos of the prototype for the correct paint color. Oh well, the picture surely shows the elegant T-1 in a different light. Actuially, I kind of liked it. Frank ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:52:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Vagel Charles Keller Subject: [PRR] Re: Origin of Terms - Brunswick Green Content-Length: 1252 Excerpts from mail: 29-Jul-98 PRR-Talk Digest - 07/29/98 by "PRR-Talk"@dsop.com Tom V. wrote: > I believe that Brunswick Green was a commercial paint that was >British in origin and was used by the Atlantic Great Eastern Railway, a >British railroad with close corporate ties to the Pennsylvania RR management >in the late 19th Century. Given the close ties between the British monarchy >and Germany from the early 1700s to the First World It is likely that there >is a Teutonic link with the color. This is very plausible ... I recall from a previous life as a Napoleanics military miniatures enthusiast that the shakos and uniform jackets or trousers/coveralls of the Brunswickers (German infantry troops under British Command) at Waterloo were dark green, nearly black. That may in fact be the introduction of the color into the British lexicon. Vagel Keller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew Harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] Brunswick Green/ DGLE Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:20:27 PDT Content-Length: 2033 >but didn't one of the other railroads actually use a sort of dark olive green >(the Reading or New Haven?) which was just a shade off of Pullman Green? ______________________________ This is just one person's opinion (mine)-- Erie dark green differed from New Haven Hunter Green which differed big time from Pennsy green. While each may be close to CONRAIL's E unit green, based on my observation, CONRAIL's E unit dark green is a bit lighter than Pennsy DGLE. Short answer: each are different colors. If you want to see a good representation (maybe a duplication) of Pennsy DGLE, make the trip to Strasburg to the Pennsy Musuem and check out the paint on the GG1. Once your eyes adjust to the light in the place, you will see that the paint is ALMOST, but not quite, black. Since many of us want to put some kind of paint on a model that's close, my take on the paint I use: Floquil's Brunswick Green is too light, even for a weathered unit. My mix here is to add equal parts of Engine Black and Dark Blue to Floq. BG to get a good approximation of DGLE, so I can spray Floquil, which I like better than most. The other solution is to use Scalecoat's Brunswick Green, which looks like a brand newly painted unit--close to black. Got no experiece using other paints. Some might be closer still, but it's what looks good to you that counts. Andrew Harmantas, a displaced SPF waiting to see the trains at C&O Milepost FM Zero. Nothing moving today. Must be a maintenance window--or something. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Brunswick Green Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:24:01 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 1135 Come on, guys, DGLE is what the Pennsy called it; Brunswick Green is what everybody else on this side of the Atlantic called it. How many of you insist that an early EMD diesel is an EF15 when everybody else calls it an F3? It seems like the easier nomenclature gets taken up for its cliquish snob appeal (cabins), some of the more obscure gets used occasionally (snappers), and the rest gets argued about or ignored. All is compromise, and those who draw their compromise lines in different places will argue over the subtlest shades of gray imaginable. Big deal. We all know what we're talking about, although I still get confused when I read about an F3 in full steam! Dennis "Academic infighting is so vicious simply because the stakes are so low." ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Forwarder? (was: TrucTrain Routing) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:35:44 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 837 On 29 Jul, "Robert L. Johnson" wrote: > [ ... ] All four include LCL Merchandise and Forwarder > cars in their consists as well as trailers. [ ... ] I know about the Merchandise Service, but what's a Forwarder car? Was it off-line LCL service? Speaking of which, did Merchandise Service boxcars go offline while M/S was still a going concern? Did PRR offer the service to offline destinations? Did other LCL services get to PRR points (B&O, NYC, etc)? Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Brunswick Green/ DGLE Date: Thu, 30 Jul 98 12:48:23 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 907 All this talk about Brunswick Green/DGLE has me thinking... ...is the listserv now duping messages from months ago...and months before that...or are we once again hashing an old subject? Oy...guess it's just part of the newbie discussion cycle! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:42:58 -0500 From: "Laird, Bill (GWise)" Subject: [PRR] PRR Trailers (was Bowser F30) Content-Length: 1208 Date: 07/30/1998 07:40 pm (Thursday) From: Bill Laird To: INET.MAIL("PRR-Talk@dsop.com") Subject: [PRR] PRR Trailers (was Bowser F30) Walthers HO scale 32' Van Trailer PRR, stock# 933-1602, MSRP $ 3.49. Currently shown in stock in the Walthers on-line catalog. Bill Laird Houston, Texas >>> PRR-Talk@dsop.com 07/30/98 08:19am wrote>>> Has anyone taken a close look at the new Bowser F30a flat car? I'm looking to develop a Trailer Train for 1954. They ran on F30's, but I'm not sure what subclass. I don't believe their was a subclass specifically developed for TrucTrain until 1958. The Bowser F30a may suffice, and at $10 each is a deal. They also are offering a 12 car package which, if they do as other vendors do, will include 12 different road numbers. Now if someone would just make the PRR trailers! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: chaslett@cse.l-3com.com Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:50:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Altoona Railfest '98 Content-Length: 2178 Hello to all. As Jerry mentioned a few weeks ago, I have volunteered to coordinate activities for the PRR-Talkers and the Conrail-Talkers at Railfest '98 this year in Altoona. The dates are Oct. 3rd and 4th. Initial plans are essentially to duplicate and expand a little on last year's activities, which included arrangements to ride together on an excursion around the Horseshoe Curve and through the tunnels at Gallitzin, a get-together for a family-style dinner at the end of the day in Hoss's restaurant's "PRR Room", maps to other PRR/PC/CR related sites or attractions in the area, PRR-Talk nametags for all, and PRR-Talk / Conrail-Talk flyers. If there is sufficient interest, we can coordinate to tour the Juniata shops together also. In that case, I can probably convince my father, a former PRR-PC-CR employee of that facility, to serve as our guide during the tour. To date, there have been no announcements as to tours, excursions, etc, but it is a bit early yet, as it was about mid August last year when these details were finalized for Railfest '97. What I'd like now is an early indication from list members who are planning to attend the Railfest that would be interested in getting together for some or all of these activities. Please contact me DIRECTLY at: chaslett@cse.l-3com.com (yes, it really ends in com.com) and let me know what day / days you are planning to attend, and what activities you'd like to be included in: excursion, shop tour, dinner, maps. I will contact you directly to confirm, with details as they become available, and will post periodic or significant developments to the lists, in case others can make it at the last minute. Carl Haslett ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:12:11 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: [PRR] Brunswick Green Content-Length: 1424 Hi All, To add some fuel to the DGLE vs. BG thread here are some of the results of a websearch I've been running: For examples of what British modelers, Railfans, etc... refer to as Brunswick Green- http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~samuel/pages/liveries.htm 3rd and 4th British Railway paint schemes labeled "Brunswick Green". http://members.aol.com/fauconberg/ Not labeled but I believe that some locos, as well as background color on his page, are "BG". These locos are colored very close to the T1 in the "Loco Profile 24". Another, very oblique, reference is this- http://www.maidenheadrc.demon.co.uk/colours.htm The club colors of this Crew team are described as "Brunswick Green with a reversed White Star". This color seems the same as the colors on the loco pages referenced. Lastly I found a color site that may be of interest- http://www.telerama.com/~mundie/Colors/NBS.html Refers to three different BG's; Light, Middle and Deep. Will post more references if/when I find more on the history of BG. Thanks, Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:49:07 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] BRUNSWICK GREEN Content-Length: 2911 In a message dated 7/29/98 7:47:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, BPX29@aol.com writes: << When a person has been around some one or something enough to feel some affection, there seems to me less need for formalities, and that's where my feelings for the Pennsy lay. Research is good, and a lot of fun too, but that's merely knowledge of the head and not of the heart. Kinda like the difference between reading war books and having been in the army. And that's something no amount of jargon can replace. >> Barry, I'm 42. I was 12 when the merger became official in 1968. I developed an interest in model railroading and the Pennsylvania Railroad in the mid 1980s when as a reporter for the Xenia Daily Gazette I wrote a large number of stories about the abandonment of the Panhandle Columbus and Cincinnati main lines running through Greene County. Research is how I take my fan trips. I feel that preserving the terminology is important because we're coming close to being three full generations removed from personal knowledge of the Pennsylvania Railroad. The youngest former full time employee for the Pennsylvania railraod cannot be any younger than 48 today (DOB in 1950, hired ion at 18 in 1968). For nearly 100 years the Pennsylvania Railroadf the largest employeer in Greene County, Ohio, but when I started miodeling in 1987 I couldn't find anyone locally who could tell why the old newspapers in XEnia called the PRR the Panhandle. What's old hat to you is olften an ephi any to us younger folk. My response to your original post was in reaction to what I considered a bit of a swipe at us self-admitted rrivet-counters. It matters to me that I model a PRR N8 cabin car painted Freight Car Color not an AT&SF or NYC caboose painted boxcar red because I grew up building flying and non-flying palstic models which were alawys represenmting a specific prototype. The concept of just good enough was foriegn to me (yes, I'm a bit compulsive). But right know you're talking to the newly converted so everything is still new and exciting. Please bear with me as my ardor cools over the years. However, I'll stand my my statement that if a steam or diesel locomotive was painted black, it wasn't owned by the Pennslvanis Railroad whose locomotives were painted Dark Green Locomotive Enamel commonly called Brunswick Green, also known as Saxony Green which was a prussian blue, chrome yellow and white mixture. If the Pennsy engines looked black its was becuase of lighting and road grime. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Trailers (was Bowser F30) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 98 15:26:47 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1105 On 7/30/98 2:42 PM, Laird, Bill (GWise) (William.Laird@coastalcorp.com) wrote: >Walthers HO scale 32' Van Trailer PRR, stock# 933-1602, MSRP $ 3.49. >Currently shown in stock in the Walthers on-line catalog. At the PRRT&HS Convention in April, the Cincinnati Modeling Group did a presentation on modeling PRR trailers. They provided handouts with elevations and such. The Walthers "PRR" trailer isn't even close the the PRR prototype. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:48:12 EDT Subject: [PRR] Scalecoat freight car color Content-Length: 602 Local hobby shop says Scalecoat has PRR freight car color in production in both Scalecoat I and II. Also that they will be coming out with spray cans. Anyone on the list or from the Society a consultant on this? Anyone seen it? Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:24:10 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Brunswick Green Content-Length: 1064 My mistake. A predecessor of the Erie Railroad in Ohio was the the Altantic & Great Western Railway. Its purchase by railraod baron Jay Gould in the late 1860s and Gould's attempts to arrange an outlet west on serveral railaroads in which the Pennsylvania Railroad had invested heavily directly led to the PRR take over of all three railroads, the Pi9tssburgh, Fort Wayne & Chicago, the Little MIami Ralroad and the Columbus, Chicago & Indiana Central in 1868, and 1869. IN 1871, the PRR board in Philadelphia formed the Pennsylvania Co. to operate this system known as Pennsylvania Raillroad Lines West of Pittsburgh & Erie, Pa.; Pennsylvania Lines or PRR Lines West for short. Tom Vondruska ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:56:52 -0700 Subject: [PRR] Yasaywhat? From: staffsgtyork@juno.com Content-Length: 1214 Greetings, Earthlings! Came back last night after vacating in Greenville, South Carolina for a week. Somewhere in my 115 awaiting messages, I remember seeing the mention of a forthcoming kit for Pennsy X29 Golf and Charlie models (that's X29G or X29C for youse civilian dudes). In my tired state, I deleted the file w/o marking the who what when and where. Who's gonna make 'em and when, and what will they be when they get here? Heck--I'll even take an X29F--been waiting for this kit!!!! Thanx, SSGT York Don't have Internet to look up transcripts or minutes, or what ever they are called. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:09:02 EDT Subject: [PRR] BRUNSWICK GREEN/DGLE Content-Length: 1634 Hi Tom (Lines West) V. Thanks for the well considered reply to last night's exchange. Please note that I never disputed that Pennsy engines where green. I only said that often looked black. The only real issue I have is having to use that rather ungainly term DGLE. If you like it, by all means, use it freely. As for your ardor, by all means, don't let it cool. This hobby, and the dear old Pennsy's memory need such spirit. I hope you can add to our store of knowledge of the PRR, and the more the better. Your dedication to the railraod has an interlectual quality that far exceeds mine, and will probably be reflected in your modelling far better than my more emotional attachments will.But neither attraction, or combination of them, is better or worse than the other. Keep up the good work, and try to pardon those of us who nitpick the nitpickers! Incidentily, wasn't the German connection to the British throne through Hanover, rather than Brunswick? There were troops from both German states, as well as others, with Wellington in both the Penninsula and Waterloo. Far as I'm aware, all German Jagers wore dark green, except for a bothersome few which wore grey, which I sure hop doesn't turn out to be the orgin of B&O grey! Later, Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:34:13 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Forwarder? (was: TrucTrain Routing) Content-Length: 979 In a message dated 98-07-30 13:12:23 EDT, Dennis writes: << I know about the Merchandise Service, but what's a Forwarder car? Was it off-line LCL service? >> My understanding is that it was a car picked up from one of the freight forwarding companies. LCL-2 lists closing hours at Chicago for Lipschultz Fast Freight (from the Erie), Clipper Carloading, Acme Fast Freight, National Carloading(from C& NW), Ranger Terminal Co., Expressway Terminals at Halsted St., etc. I assume it could have been any car in interchange service, but suspect those with loading devices would be preferred. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:25:50 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR frog War Content-Length: 484 There's a magazine on E-Bay that has an article about the "PRR Frog War". Anyone know anything about this? Thanks Todd Horton ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Yasaywhat? Date: Thu, 30 Jul 98 20:42:19 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1287 On 7/30/98 8:56 PM, staffsgtyork@juno.com (staffsgtyork@juno.com) wrote: >Came back last night after vacating in Greenville, South Carolina for a >week. Somewhere in my 115 awaiting messages, I remember seeing the >mention of a forthcoming kit for Pennsy X29 Golf and Charlie models >(that's X29G or X29C for youse civilian dudes). In my tired state, I >deleted the file w/o marking the who what when and where. Who's gonna >make 'em and when, and what will they be when they get here? Heck--I'll >even take an X29F--been waiting for this kit!!!! I don't remember the post specifically, but remember that there is an online searchable archive of PRR-Talk at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/databases.html ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Leary" Subject: RE: [PRR] BRUNSWICK GREEN/DGLE Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 23:36:35 -0400 Content-Length: 2775 Barry, Your comments are extremely well written in my humble, and still learning, opinion. I, and I'm sure everyone else, respect the fact that you know the Pennsy "first hand." "Researchers" now attempting to learn and preserve the Pennsy are to be admired. But, without a doubt, we owe so much to those who know the Pennsy first hand, and, are willing to share their Pennsy knowledge with us. Thank you Barry. Sincerely, Greg Leary (electronically signed) > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of > BPX29@aol.com > Sent: Thursday, July 30, 1998 5:09 PM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] BRUNSWICK GREEN/DGLE > > > Hi Tom (Lines West) V. > Thanks for the well considered reply to last night's > exchange. Please note > that I never disputed that Pennsy engines where green. I only > said that often > looked black. The only real issue I have is having to use that > rather ungainly > term DGLE. If you like it, by all means, use it freely. As for > your ardor, by > all means, don't let it cool. This hobby, and the dear old Pennsy's memory > need such spirit. I hope you can add to our store of knowledge of > the PRR, and > the more the better. Your dedication to the railraod has an interlectual > quality that far exceeds mine, and will probably be reflected in your > modelling far better than my more emotional attachments will.But neither > attraction, or combination of them, is better or worse than the > other. Keep up > the good work, and try to pardon those of us who nitpick the nitpickers! > Incidentily, wasn't the German connection to the British > throne through > Hanover, rather than Brunswick? There were troops from both > German states, as > well as others, with Wellington in both the Penninsula and > Waterloo. Far as > I'm aware, all German Jagers wore dark green, except for a bothersome few > which wore grey, which I sure hop doesn't turn out to be the orgin of B&O > grey! > Later, > Barry Peltier > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Yasaywhat? From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 08:48:24 -0400 Content-Length: 1952 Yo York, I have heard nada re X29 Golf and Charlie, however C&BT has been threatening Bravo and Delta for over a year. I have spoken with him more than once. He claims the usual production problems and it now seem like the end of the year (calendar year for you military types). He had once promised KC, but obviously missed. regards, Andy Miller ================ Greetings, Earthlings! Came back last night after vacating in Greenville, South Carolina for a week. Somewhere in my 115 awaiting messages, I remember seeing the mention of a forthcoming kit for Pennsy X29 Golf and Charlie models (that's X29G or X29C for youse civilian dudes). In my tired state, I deleted the file w/o marking the who what when and where. Who's gonna make 'em and when, and what will they be when they get here? Heck--I'll even take an X29F--been waiting for this kit!!!! Thanx, SSGT York Don't have Internet to look up transcripts or minutes, or what ever they are called. ____________________________________________________________ _________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - ----------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. - ----------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Trailers (was Bowser F30) From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 09:10:35 -0400 Content-Length: 955 On 7/30/98 2:42 PM, Laird, Bill (GWise) (William.Laird@coastalcorp.com) wrote: >Walthers HO scale 32' Van Trailer PRR, stock# 933-1602, MSRP $ 3.49. >Currently shown in stock in the Walthers on-line catalog. At the PRRT&HS Convention in April, the Cincinnati Modeling Group did a presentation on modeling PRR trailers. They provided handouts with elevations and such. The Walthers "PRR" trailer isn't even close the the PRR prototype. Jerry Britton, SPF =========== Al right Jerry - don't keep us guessing. What is close? regards Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 8:26:33 -0500 From: "Laird, Bill (GWise)" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Trailers (was Bowser F30) -Reply Content-Length: 1134 Date: 07/31/1998 02:24 pm (Friday) From: Bill Laird To: INET.MAIL("PRR-Talk@dsop.com") Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Trailers (was Bowser F30) -Reply >>> Jerry at PRR-Talk@dsop.com 07/30/98 02:26pm wrote >>> >>The Walthers "PRR" trailer isn't even close the PRR prototype. As often happens in this hobby, the hobbyist has to make choices, in this case: 1. Scratch build. 2. Wait until some manufacture produces an "accurate model", if ever. 3. Use what is available until you decide to do option 1 or 2. As I am not a rivet counter but attempt to achieve the "look and feel of the PRR", and get something running on the rails today as opposed to armchair modeling, I am content with option 3. To each his own. Bill Laird Houston, Texas ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Trailers Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 09:33:44 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 2424 On 7/31/98 9:10 AM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mail11.mitre.org) wrote: > >At the PRRT&HS Convention in April, the Cincinnati Modeling Group did a > >presentation on modeling PRR trailers. They provided handouts with > >elevations > >and such. > > > >The Walthers "PRR" trailer isn't even close the the PRR prototype. > >Al right Jerry - don't keep us guessing. What is close? None, actually. I have the docs at home, but if I recall correctly, they actually used an Athearn longer trailer as the basis. The Athearn wheels were correct -- and the only on the market that is correct -- as the Pennsy used a very different wheel. That being said, they took the underframe of the Athearn and cut it down to size (needed shortened and I forget how long the Athearn is). As for the trailer body, I think the Athearn was a smooth side, while the PRR had a very tight rib pattern. Plus, there was a large door on the curb side. Plus, the front end had a large radius rounded corner (maybe 24"). Commercially available trailers have a tight radius. Then there's decals. On both sides of the trailer, a large "PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD" ran diagonal from lower left to upper right. But the letters remained parallel to the ground -- not diagonal -- so you have to place each one individually. Plus, in the upper left and lower right corners on each side, plus at the top of the front, were keystone decals that read "KEYSTONE MERCHANDISE SERVICE". Later the text was changed to "DOOR TO DOOR SERVICE". There were also unit (road) numbers on the front and the back. This all entails a lot of custom work. If someone would make a kit with the appropriate parts and supply a decal sheet...I'd bet they'd sell by the dozen! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 8:34:21 -0500 From: "Laird, Bill (GWise)" Subject: [PRR] Altoona Railfest '98 -Reply Content-Length: 2879 Date: 07/31/1998 02:32 pm (Friday) From: Bill Laird To: INET.MAIL("PRR-Talk@dsop.com") Subject: [PRR] Altoona Railfest '98 -Reply My appologies for replying to the list and not directly to Carl as he requested in his message (see below). Carl, I have tried to reply to chaslett@cse.I-3com.com as you requested in your message and to chaslett@camden.Imco.com, the address in the header of your original message, and both times my message was returned undeliverable with the error "No Such Host". Are others experiencing problems replying directly to Carl, or is it only me? Bill Laird Houston, Texas >>> Carl Haslett at PRR-Talk@dsop.com 07/30/98 01:50pm wrote >>> Hello to all. As Jerry mentioned a few weeks ago, I have volunteered to coordinate activities for the PRR-Talkers and the Conrail-Talkers at Railfest '98 this year in Altoona. The dates are Oct. 3rd and 4th. Initial plans are essentially to duplicate and expand a little on last year's activities, which included arrangements to ride together on an excursion around the Horseshoe Curve and through the tunnels at Gallitzin, a get-together for a family-style dinner at the end of the day in Hoss's restaurant's "PRR Room", maps to other PRR/PC/CR related sites or attractions in the area, PRR-Talk nametags for all, and PRR-Talk / Conrail-Talk flyers. If there is sufficient interest, we can coordinate to tour the Juniata shops together also. In that case, I can probably convince my father, a former PRR-PC-CR employee of that facility, to serve as our guide during the tour. To date, there have been no announcements as to tours, excursions, etc, but it is a bit early yet, as it was about mid August last year when these details were finalized for Railfest '97. What I'd like now is an early indication from list members who are planning to attend the Railfest that would be interested in getting together for some or all of these activities. Please contact me DIRECTLY at: chaslett@cse.l-3com.com (yes, it really ends in com.com) and let me know what day / days you are planning to attend, and what activities you'd like to be included in: excursion, shop tour, dinner, maps. I will contact you directly to confirm, with details as they become available, and will post periodic or significant developments to the lists, in case others can make it at the last minute. Carl Haslett ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Trailers Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 09:42:28 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1028 On 7/31/98 9:10 AM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mail11.mitre.org) wrote: >At the PRRT&HS Convention in April, the Cincinnati Modeling Group did a >presentation on modeling PRR trailers. They provided handouts with >elevations >and such. I just began an effort to get in touch with this group. I'll see if I can scan in the handouts and publish them on the web. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:36:05 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR frog War Content-Length: 686 Hi - The only Frog War that I vaguely remember was between the PRR , possibly the <> and the Reading << Philadelphia and Reading >>. .out in western central NJ, near Pennington....Frog was put in place for RRs to cross, ripped out by other company at night, etc....neat story. ...Bill. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: chaslett@cse.l-3com.com Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:38:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railfest '98 -Reply Content-Length: 884 Hello to all from Carl, A quick explanation / clarification in my e-mail address, chaslett@cse.l-3com.com : The symbol after the first period is the lower-case letter L, ie: l. If you tried to reply, but hand-typed instead of using a reply button option or a cut-and-paste from my Railfest '98 posting, you may have easily misread that symbol as the number 1 or an uppercase I. Also, as I mentioned before, the com.com part is correct, I guess from our department of redundancy department. Carl ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:44:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR frog War Content-Length: 1199 On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 PRRSignals@aol.com wrote: > Hi - > > The only Frog War that I vaguely remember was between the PRR , possibly the > <> and the Reading << Philadelphia and > Reading >>. .out in western central NJ, near Pennington....Frog was put in > place for RRs to cross, ripped out by other company at night, etc....neat > story. ...Bill. The Ron DeGraw "Red Arrow" book (on the company which owned the trolley lines which run from 69th St. Phila to West Chester, Ardmore, Sharon Hill and Media) details the "Battle of Llanerch" when the West Chester Pike trolley line was attempting to cross the Pennsy's Newtown Square branch. The "Valley Railways" book about trolley service on the west shore across from Harrisburg details something similar. I don't recall details -D ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew Harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] Brunswick Green/ DGLE Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 07:51:35 PDT Content-Length: 2033 >but didn't one of the other railroads actually use a sort of dark olive green >(the Reading or New Haven?) which was just a shade off of Pullman Green? ______________________________ This is just one person's opinion (mine)-- Erie dark green differed from New Haven Hunter Green which differed big time from Pennsy green. While each may be close to CONRAIL's E unit green, based on my observation, CONRAIL's E unit dark green is a bit lighter than Pennsy DGLE. Short answer: each are different colors. If you want to see a good representation (maybe a duplication) of Pennsy DGLE, make the trip to Strasburg to the Pennsy Musuem and check out the paint on the GG1. Once your eyes adjust to the light in the place, you will see that the paint is ALMOST, but not quite, black. Since many of us want to put some kind of paint on a model that's close, my take on the paint I use: Floquil's Brunswick Green is too light, even for a weathered unit. My mix here is to add equal parts of Engine Black and Dark Blue to Floq. BG to get a good approximation of DGLE, so I can spray Floquil, which I like better than most. The other solution is to use Scalecoat's Brunswick Green, which looks like a brand newly painted unit--close to black. Got no experiece using other paints. Some might be closer still, but it's what looks good to you that counts. Andrew Harmantas, a displaced SPF waiting to see the trains at C&O Milepost FM Zero. Nothing moving today. Must be a maintenance window--or something. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:17:23 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] BG / DGLE / whatever... Content-Length: 1324 Hi, Barry...I appreciated what Tom was saying. Yes, I too correct the non-PRR fans with " not caboose, cabin car."...it is an on-going joke in my group..!!! We have fun, bust chops. Our 'group' was mostly baby boomers, started on RRs 1963-68 era. Most worked with me on PRR, other pals EL, etc., and we cross visited. I guess that I am much more on your end of the scale....love PRR memories, but dropped the rivet counting O scale stuff for G gauge stuff....now there is a real GREEN version of BG...!!!! way too green, but...they come out of box and run. My three U25B's remind me of when we first saw them arrive..!!! And I have an ABBA set of Alco units, incorrectly in 5 stripe green, but look neat. I do truly appreciate others properly accurate models; mine were exact, from photos, etc. At this time in my life, I just pass on doing them, rather enjoy others fine works. Thanks to Tom and Barry for an interesting discussion !!...Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:48:42 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] A Corry, PA Question (long) Content-Length: 2073 I've been reading and re-reading the 1923 CT1000, trying to figure out how the Renovo and Allegheny divisions interconnected at Corry. The description of the Renovo Division is pretty straight-forward. The track enters from the east, marches past several businesses, has a junction, more businesses, two more junctions, and then on to the passing siding at Lovell and points beyond. The description of the Allegheny Division (Chautauqua Branch) is the hard part. Apparently the Allegheny Division joined the Renovo Division 42.3 miles from Oil City and used the track of the Renovo Division from Lovell to Corry. But at Corry, the list of locations gets troubled. There are 3 breaks in the mileages listed, which suggests that there were multiple tracks running off in various directions. Not having a map which shows those tracks, I'm having a hard time figuring out how they all fit together. To make matters worse, the junctions between the two divisions appear to be on these mystery tracks. Perhaps the Renovo Division simply passed through Corry, with all the local spurs and long sidings belonging to the Allegheny Division? If so, some of those "junctions" may be "junction of the siding to Krelvny's Store (Allegheny Div.) with Main Line (Renovo Div.)" Can anyone clarify what there was at Corry (in 1923) and how it was laid out? This is probably long enough now to get Jerry worked up, so I'll refrain from listing the CT1000 data. If anyone would like to see that, I could type it up and send it. Thanks _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] TAN: MIME Format and AOL Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 12:08:52 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 917 Sorry to send this to the PRR-Talk list, but I need responses from people I can trust (that's you guys) rather than a bunch of garbage from the world at large... Do America Online subscribers have problems with MIME format e-mail attachments? Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! Web space for rent at http://www.pennsyrr.com The Standard Pennsy Web Site of the World! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:40:03 -0400 From: bobsin@nac.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR frog War Content-Length: 1400 In New Jersey, the term "Frog War" is familiarly used to refer to the fisticuffs that took place especially 5-7 January 1876 when the Belaware and Bound Brook Railroad, a Reading Company affiliate, attempted to force their new line across the track of the Mercer and Somerset Railway, a United Companies affiliate and therefore an antecedent of the PRR. They tried to place the crossing, or "frogs," in place by force. The PRR attempted to blockade the attempt, but the Reading side established their own blockade -- a blockade apparently refers to placing the crossing frogs in place and then placing a locomotive on them. By January 7 the state had stepped in with the National Guard and then an injunction against the PRR forces. The Mercer & Somerset seems to have been constructed only to stop the Reading anyway, and its line from the Bel-Del on the Delaware to Millstone was abandoned soon thereafter. These details come from Warren Lee's "Down Along the Old Bel-Del," p. 11. John Bobsin Basking Ridge, NJ ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 14:35:07 -0400 From: "David J. Wartell" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR frog War Content-Length: 924 Just a minor comment on the quote below. The 69th Street Terminal is still located in Upper Darby, we haven't ceded it to Philly yet. > >The Ron DeGraw "Red Arrow" book (on the company which owned the trolley >lines which run from 69th St. Phila to West Chester, Ardmore, Sharon Hill >and Media) details the "Battle of Llanerch" when the West Chester Pike >trolley line was attempting to cross the Pennsy's Newtown Square branch. > David J. Wartell Upper Darby High School Class of '68 djwartel@ix.netcom.com Dave Wartell djwartel@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:12:45 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR frog War Content-Length: 1270 I'm sure it's not the one which started this thread, but there was a "frog war" of sorts as recently as the late 1950's between the NYC and PRR. In Clearfield county, PA, there were miles of track which were used jointly by the two. On one such track, owned by PRR, NYC solicited a customer and set out to install a siding to that customer. PRR objected, saying that NYC had a right to use the track, not a right to alter the track. NYC brought in a work train, dropped off switch parts. PRR brought in a work train, picked up frog, points, switch ties, etc. Switch parts went to Cresson. NYC called the cops, claiming theft. PRR sent NYC a bill for storage of switch parts. Whole thing went to court in Clearfield, judge ruled in favor of PRR. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: [PRR] HO wish list Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:41:28 -0400 Content-Length: 946 Hello group, In addition to the need for accurate PRR TrucTrain trailer models there is also a market for trailer decals from the 1950s era. Pennsy customers included carriers such as Riss, Chicago Express, Eastern Express, Yale, etc. To my knowledge, no decals exist for any of these. I would also love to see Proto 2000 heavyweight passenger car models of Pullman and Pennsy prototypes. I'm talking about cars like solarium lounges, parlors, betterment sleepers and the like. Anyone agree? Lets see, what else would I like to see.............? Jerry Breon ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:51:33 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] HO wish list From: staffsgtyork@juno.com Content-Length: 1637 On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:41:28 -0400 "jbreon" writes: >Hello group, > > I would also love to see Proto 2000 heavyweight passenger car >models >of Pullman and Pennsy prototypes. I'm talking about cars like solarium >lounges, parlors, betterment sleepers and the like. Anyone >agree? Lets see, what else would I like to see.............? > >Jerry Breon I would like to see someone build a "Cannon and Co" style modular boxcar component system. You buy a 40' or 50' underframe by specific manufacturer (including Duryea, Evans, PS, etc.). Select a car side set for the specific railroad (Milwaukee horizontal rib or X37) or generic design (i.e. 1937 AAR). Add a roof by Viking, PS; riveted or welded, etc. Pick your ends, add ladders, trucks and running boards--and WOW! Accurate car from a parts box. Willing to help with this research and design--any investors? I know the men who did the CAD for the Proto 2k Line--could make this a profit outlet for PRR projects. SSGT York _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Stephen R. Sejda" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Trailers (was Bowser F30) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 17:23:29 -0400 Content-Length: 725 Hey Liberty.... here's a good project for you. ---------- > >>> PRR-Talk@dsop.com 07/30/98 08:19am wrote>>> > I'm looking to develop a Trailer Train for 1954. They ran on F30's, but > I'm not sure what subclass. I don't believe their was a subclass > specifically developed for TrucTrain until 1958. > > Now if someone would just make the PRR trailers! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 17:39:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] BRUNSWICK GREEN/DGLE Content-Length: 991 Greg, Thank you very much for your kindly remarks. Sometimes I kick myself for shooting off my keybaord too much....I'm no writer and it's easy for me to send the wrong impression. I agree with your opinions, as well. This fraternity has room for all of us, and we've much more in common than otherwise. Most of what I know of the Pennsy has come about due to dumb luck, and it sure does me no serious injury to dig into the records now and again. the matter of a few semantics certainly isn't worth disruting the interchange of ideas, and I for one learn something every time I tune in. Thanks again, sir. Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 17:47:23 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re:Historical Society Content-Length: 524 Is anyone from the list going to make an attempt to run for the Board of Directors of the PRR Society? Bud Brock ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] SALE: August Special: Tichy Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 19:34:34 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1587 The "Merchandise Service" special for the month of August is Tichy. All Tichy products are 20% off, plus $5 per order shipping. Pennsylvania residents need to add 6% state sales tax. REMEMBER: All proceeds benefit the operation of "PRR-Talk" and "Conrail-Talk" Highlighting the line is their 400 Ton Concrete Coaling Tower, found on page 561 of the 1998 Walthers catalog. This tower is very similar to many along the Pennsy right-of-way and would be ideal for a mid- to large-size locomotive terminal. It serves two tracks underneath plus one out front. A fourth track feeds the included coal shed. Included is a sand drying house and equipment shed. The retail price is $135. Here's your chance to snag one for only $108! Tichy also makes a line of freight cars which you'll find on pages 188-189 in the Walthers catalog. Thanks to everyone who supported the July special, Morning Sun books. The Red Caboose "REA" X-29's are in fact en route to us, so please be patient. Thank you! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 20:07:07 EDT Subject: [PRR] DGLE/HISTORY Content-Length: 864 Tom (Lines West)V, Don't worry, Tom, about the Prussian nobility mistaken ID. My maternal grandfather served in the Austrian-Hungarian army in WW1, and he was always mad at the Prussians for a lot of things, including 1867 (and 1740 and 1756 and etc). And his wife, my grandmother, who was from Wurtemburg , was always remarking that "dem Prooshins are not at all like us Germans! Too serious all da time". Now I know the B&O didn't use Prussian blue, nice as the color is. Later Barry Peltier ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Re: Employee Timetables Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 20:24:01 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1963 About two weeks ago I made a post to try to find out the issue number of the Philadelphia Division ETT that was in effect for my modeling time: September 26, 1954. I found out that issue numbers were frequently re-used. I have found out the folliwing issue dates for the Philly Division: >Philadelphia Division No. 8 4/28/46 >Philadelphia Division No. 4 4/26/53 >Philadelphia Division No. ? 9/27/53 >Philadelphia Division No. ? (spring) /54 >Philadelphia Division No. 8 4/24/55 >Philadelphia Region No.3 4/28/57 "Bill" (prrsignals@aol.com) stated that he has a spring 1954 issue, but didn't provide the exact date. It was probably April, which was typical for updates...probably due to the clock change. Does anyone know of one in 1954 that was issued later than in the spring? Other Division ETT issue numbers and dates: > >Middle Division No. 3 12/6/42 >Middle Division No. 7 4/28/46 >Middle Division No. ? 9/27/46 >Phila. Terminal No. 14 6/22/47 >Phila. Terminal No. 22 4/29/51 >Pittsburgh Division No. 3 12/6/42 >Pittsburgh Division No. 7 9/29/46 >Pittsburgh Region No. 7 4/26/59 >Pittsburgh Region No. 8 10/25/59 >Pittsburgh Region No. 11 10/29/61 >Pittsburgh Region No. 13 10/27/63 (G.O. revises it to Allegheny >DIVISION/Pittsburgh DIVISION No. 13, effective same date.) Thanks to Dan Cupper, Dave Wartell, Hank Mummert, and > ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!!