Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:38:41 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Novatach Erie-Builts Content-Length: 967 Mine finally arrived this AM. I did get a chance to take a look at them before coming in to work. The detail isn't fantastic, but it's better than some of the trainset-quality stuff I have. Would I buy them if I could have seen them first? Yes Was it worth the wait? Maybe Will I buy their C-Liners? Well, the quality of the Erie-Builts is better than the AHM/IHC C-Liner shell, but I'm not sure if it's worth the extra $$$. If I do I'll try to find a hobby shop willing to order it for me. I don't want to do it myself again. -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Boxes Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 13:27:50 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 979 I am (or am about to be) in the process of building numerous passenger cars using parts from numerous vendors...sides from USP, core kits from ECW, trucks from MDC, couplers from Kadee, etc., etc., etc. Does anyone know if anyone sells empty cardboard boxes like those that kits (like Athearn's) come in? They'd need to be 12" plus long. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: more on the Florida trains Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:51:39 -0500 Content-Length: 1564 > According to a 1938 ACL Timetable the East Coast Champion originated > in > Boston and traveled to NYC on the NYNH&H, then to Washington on the > PRR > powered by a GG1 I assume, from Washington to Richmond on the RF&P, > and from > Richmond to Miami via the ACL and the FEC via Jacksonville. The > Trains were > diesel powered south of Richmond. > __________________________ > Just one small point that is obvious to most. In fact, all passenger > trains (from all railroads) were diesel powered southbound from Union > Station, Washington, D.C.. The electric overhead continued south to > Potomac Yard where Pennsy (and others) freight trains terminated and > interchanged. Not too long ago, "Pot Yard" was full of Pennsy > traction and an occasional diesel, all in grungy green. The tuscan > stuff was serviced at the Ivy City facility just outside of Union > Station. What a time that was, getting to see Pennsy electrics > pulling long freights on one track, while on a parallel track an RF&P > passenger train whipped by hauled by a Governor class 4-8-4. > Andrew Harmantas, SPF, among others ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Boxes for Completed Kits Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 14:08:48 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1427 On 12/1/97 2:54 PM, Rob Schoenberg (robs@protocol.zycad.com) wrote: >Well, according to the Walthers web site. Athearn does sell the empty boxes. >Don't remember how much they were though... > >>I am (or am about to be) in the process of building numerous passenger >>cars using parts from numerous vendors...sides from USP, core kits from >>ECW, trucks from MDC, couplers from Kadee, etc., etc., etc. >> >>Does anyone know if anyone sells empty cardboard boxes like those that >>kits (like Athearn's) come in? >> >>They'd need to be 12" plus long. Thank you! (Though they are out of stock!) Athearn Inc 140 76300 Kit box 7.5" H 1.00 Y Athearn Inc 140 76301 Kit box 10.5" H 1.25 N 12/07/1997 Athearn Inc 140 76302 Kit box 12.5" H 1.50 N 12/07/1997 --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:16:11 -0500 Subject: Last GG1 run? From: sjfitch@juno.com (Samuel J Fitch) Content-Length: 682 Dear List Members, Could someone help me with a little information as to when the last run of a GG1 occurred? Was it by NJ Transit? The road number, date and route would be appreciated. Thank You, Samuel J. Fitch sjfitch@juno.com 1John 5:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 01 Dec 97 13:48:42 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: more on the Florida trains Content-Length: 6012 --====54485052515755484951===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" >> In fact, all passenger >> trains (from all railroads) were diesel powered southbound from Union >> Station, Washington, D.C. Andrew -- note the year referred to in the original message -- 1938. Unless Coast Line (and Seaboard) were running their diesels through to Washington, Florida trains between DC and Richmond were probably STEAM powered, with those beautiful Governor-class 4-8-4's you refer to. I don't believe RF&P had passenger diesels until after the war, but I could be wrong (I am so often!). Harmantas, Andrew G. wrote: > > > > >> According to a 1938 ACL Timetable the East Coast Champion originated >> in >> Boston and traveled to NYC on the NYNH&H, then to Washington on the >> PRR >> powered by a GG1 I assume, from Washington to Richmond on the RF&P, >> and from >> Richmond to Miami via the ACL and the FEC via Jacksonville. The >> Trains were >> diesel powered south of Richmond. >> __________________________ >> Just one small point that is obvious to most. In fact, all passenger >> trains (from all railroads) were diesel powered southbound from Union >> Station, Washington, D.C.. The electric overhead continued south to >> Potomac Yard where Pennsy (and others) freight trains terminated and >> interchanged. Not too long ago, "Pot Yard" was full of Pennsy >> traction and an occasional diesel, all in grungy green. The tuscan >> stuff was serviced at the Ivy City facility just outside of Union >> Station. What a time that was, getting to see Pennsy electrics >> pulling long freights on one track, while on a parallel track an RF&P >> passenger train whipped by hauled by a Governor class 4-8-4. >> > Andrew Harmantas, SPF, among others > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====54485052515755484951===1 Subject: Re: Boxes Date: Mon, 01 Dec 97 13:54:23 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1017 Well, according to the Walthers web site. Athearn does sell the empty boxes. Don't remember how much they were though... Rob >I am (or am about to be) in the process of building numerous passenger >cars using parts from numerous vendors...sides from USP, core kits from >ECW, trucks from MDC, couplers from Kadee, etc., etc., etc. > >Does anyone know if anyone sells empty cardboard boxes like those that >kits (like Athearn's) come in? > >They'd need to be 12" plus long. > >--------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: more on the Florida trains Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:00:36 -0500 Content-Length: 1843 I must have missed the 1938 time frame. I doubt any of the southern lines were using diesel power on their trains back then, north or south of Richmond. Slightly off topic point: not all passenger runs between D.C. and Richmond were pulled by RF&P power. I did see both Seaboard and ACL diesels operating through Alexandria and by Pot Yard, along with Southern and C&O trains, all of which used Pennsy tracks between Pot Yard and Union Station. I can tell you, around 1950 the place was very colorful and noisy, with fast moving, non-mufflered diesels (don't know why this thing keeps defaulting to Itallics) and equally fast moving steam, with B&O and Southern and C&O 2-8-2's blowing off steam (literally) on the engine track at Pot Yard. All of this was taken in where Glebe Road intersects with Jefferon-Davis Highway (US Route 1) in Arlington . Wish I had a camera back then--I coulda been another Joe Collias, or a C. W. Witback, or somebody.n tell can tell you---------- > Andrew -- note the year referred to in the original message -- 1938. > Unless Coast Line (and Seaboard) were running their diesels through to > Washington, Florida trains between DC and Richmond were probably STEAM > powered, with those beautiful Governor-class 4-8-4's you refer to. I > don't > believe RF&P had passenger diesels until after the war, but I could be > wrong > (I am so often!). > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:37:01 -0500 (EST) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: PRR box cars Content-Length: 1940 In a message dated 97-12-01 09:14:13 EST, asmiller@mail11.mitre.org writes: << It appears as if among C&BT (X29 rebuids and X43's), Red Caboose(X29's) and Bowser (X31's) almost all of the 40-50's era PRR boxcar need may be met with accurate kits. Now for an X37, hmmm. >> Andy, we also need a good plastic version of the X26, X26c, X28a, X37b, X38, X41b and X44 to cover the major early 1950's classes. The X26 is available fro Tichy in a flat resing kit but thus is not easily assembled. The Accurail versionis actually a CN/CP car and is very wrong for the PRR. Below is a list of total cars by class in 1952. CLASS 1952 ARA 1 X23 34 X23A 37 X23B 257 X24 1 X25 153 X25A 103 X25D 6 X26 4221 X26A 1 X26C 3476 X28A 3785 X29 24533 X29A 1 X29B 4404 X29C 4 X29D UNDER CONSTRUCTION X30 1 X31 447 X31A SGL DOOR 6618 X31A DBL DOOR 605 X31B 1182 X31C 802 X31F 688 X32 58 X32A 693 X32B 879 X32C 113 X33 48 X33A 296 X35 1 X36 1 X37 993 X37A 497 X37B 1485 X38 2297 X38A 595 X38B 1 X40 5 X40A 4 X40B 100 X40C 1 X41 288 X41A 199 X41B 1493 X41C 498 X43 500 X43A 1498 X43B 2995 X43C 1499 X44 1248 Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 15:08:01 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: more on the Florida trains Content-Length: 1175 Harmantas, Andrew G. wrote: > > I must have missed the 1938 time frame. I doubt any of the southern > lines were using diesel power on their trains back then, north or south > of Richmond. > It would have been a few years later, but around 1940, '41, or '42 I rode the Southerner from New Orleans to New York & return. I would have been 4, 5, or 6 years old, so I can't pinpoint the year (it was positively not after 1942), but it was definitely pulled by a diesel - I well recall the horn blowing for all the grade crossings, the first I remember after a lifetime (!) of train riding. If anyone can date the streamlining of the Southerner, that would help pin things down on at least one train south of Wash. D. C. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR box cars From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 15:48:41 -0500 Content-Length: 1670 Rich, Sorry, perhaps I should have said MAJOR classes. Eliminating all of the one-of-a-kinds etc. your list looks like this: >CLASS 1952 >X26 4221 >X26C 3476 >X28A 3785 >X29 24533 >X29B 4404 >X31 447 >X31A SGL DOOR 6618 >X31A DBL DOOR 605 >X31B 1182 >X31C 802 >X31F 688 >X32A 693 >X32B 879 >X37 993 >X37A 497 >X37B 1485 >X38 2297 >X38A 595 >X41B 1493 >X41C 498 >X43 500 >X43A 1498 >X43B 2995 >X43C 1499 >X44 1248 > I was thinking just of the 40 footers; but you are right, there were many 50 footers (and 60!!) as well. Tichy makes a PMcK&Y USRA rebuild which I consider a reasonable stand-in for the X26c. It has the right roof, Youngstown doors and ends and the telltale angle construction at the base of the sides where the new wide box was applied to the old narrow frame; but the car is a foot too low. Perhaps this is a measure of my standards more than anything else. Many of these cars have been made in resin, usually by Sunshine, but I was only considering styrene. regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 16:55:34 -0500 (EST) From: VVA249@aol.com Subject: It's amazing what you run into - when you're not really looking Content-Length: 1130 My College - Mount Union of Alliance Ohio - is in the "final four" of the NCAA Division III (small college) playoffs. I went looking for info on our next opponent Simpson College of Indianola Iowa. What I found was a professor named Dick Tinder who in addition to managing the College's computers, their web site and teaching Computer Sciences also teaches a CREDIT COURSE on "Railfanning in Iowa" Humanities 290 complete with "train watching" and museum visits ! This must be a "labor of love" and in addition to all other assigned duties......... Does anyone know of any College doing anything like this ? Dick Ross ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 17:19:53 -0500 From: Brian Brooks Subject: Re: PRR box cars Content-Length: 2123 At 09:04 AM 12/1/97 -0500, you wrote: >Also under "New Product Announcements" they list their PRR rebuilds, the >X29b's and X29d's :-))). They are listed as "special order". I intend to >have my dealer special order it ASAP! > >I already built one of their X43c's and was impressed with the accuracy. They >have abandonded many of their old, terrible castings, and replaced them with >Tichy stuff. > >It appears as if among C&BT (X29 rebuids and X43's), Red Caboose(X29's) and >Bowser (X31's) almost all of the 40-50's era PRR boxcar need may be met with >accurate kits. Now for an X37, hmmm. > >regards >Andy Miller I was under the impression that the X43 series had diagonal panel roofs. The C&BT kits lettered for the PRR X43c that I've seen did not reflect this. Was this an older release or do I have my details wrong? In any case, I'm definetly going to try the new X29b and X29d kits. A freshly painted X29d with the "Don't Stand Me Still!" slogan would be inspiring. Since the Tichy USRA boxcar kit was mentioned in this string, I have another question. I had intended to build up one of these to represent an X26. However, since I model Autumn 1955, I had some reservations. Was the number of X26 still in revenue service large enough to justify it appearing on my layout? Also, even if I used the Youngstown doors and added AB brakes, wouldn't the as-built roof be incorrect for a car this late in its life? Would lettering it for MoW service be an more plausible option. I haven't ran across any photos of X26 in MoW paint, although I haven't really looked that hard. I'd like to have this kit on my PRR roster. Brian Brooks ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Jan 1996 08:24:11 -0800 From: "Linda T. Miedema - Stafford" Subject: Don't want anymore e-mails Content-Length: 553 Please do not sent me anymore of your e-mails. I don't know how my e-mail address got to you, but please drop it. Thank you. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: Cabin Cars Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:07:05 -0600 Content-Length: 883 I don't know if they appear elsewhere on lists, but Terre Haute, IN, has an N6B (I am almost sure) in a park and Shipshawana (sp?), IN (Amish country) has an N8 (?? I am really in memory lock on this one, if someone can confirm the model, please) right across from the combination dry goods store and bed and breakfast. Both in good condition. The Shipshawana cabin was open to walk through a couple years ago, at least. Bob Zoeller Fox Point, WI ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: K-5 Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:23:53 -0600 Content-Length: 2274 H. Mummert wrote: " maybe they could come out with parts to change bachmanns cars... I.E. roofs,doors,window inserts,etc...like the ones you can get to change ahm-rivarossi-ihc cars.would love to have the arch roof on some of my bachmann P-70 cars." You can buy the arch roofs from Bethlehem car works (I think they are long enough --they were for the M70--will check tonight), or you could buy the whole kit with arch roof from Eastern Car Works(P70FAR and P70FBR - one arch, one streamlined roof --forget which). There was a comment questioning how ECW could continue offering these P70's in face of Bachmann. I tend to agree with the niceties of interiors and lights on Bachmann, but ECW are still finer scale kits, IMHO, and since I don't like the colors on Bachmann, I am into painting anyway. I still own a string of 10 of the Bachman's though, since it was a fast way of getting a long string which would run on 24" curves. I previously mentioned repainting and restriping and lettering the D70 diner --try it --looks spectacular correctly painted,striped and lettered! BTW, the Bachman 30's color scheme they put out did have a better Tuscan (again, IMHO) and the olive underbody and roof under room lighting is not far from a grimy black, so I have been using these P70 and PB70s in with my other make cars. Regards to the faithful. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 18:57:26 -0500 From: Chris Brandt Subject: Re: Last GG1 run? Content-Length: 1520 Samuel J Fitch wrote: > > Dear List Members, > > Could someone help me with a little > information as to when the last run > of a GG1 occurred? > > Was it by NJ Transit? > > The road number, date and route > would be appreciated. > > Thank You, > > Samuel J. Fitch > sjfitch@juno.com > 1John 5:12 The last run of a GG1 was on Saturday, October 29, 1983. There were three ceremonial runs between Matawan and Newark featuring No.s 4877(in tuscan red 5-stripe), 4879(NJT black), and 4882(NJT black). The last scheduled revenue run was on Friday, October 28, 1983. No. 4879(NJT black) hauling train No. 3323, the 5:20 p.m. out of Pennsylvania Station, NY to the locomotive change at South Amboy. Yes, it was NJ Transit. Hope this helps. -Chris -- _______ ____________\ /____________ __________\ P /__________ ___________\ R R /___________ ____________\ /____________ _____________\___/_____________ Chris Brandt cobrandt@eclipse.net http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 23:25:52 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: Boxes Content-Length: 1557 Jerry Britton wrote: > > I am (or am about to be) in the process of building numerous passenger > cars using parts from numerous vendors...sides from USP, core kits from > ECW, trucks from MDC, couplers from Kadee, etc., etc., etc. > > Does anyone know if anyone sells empty cardboard boxes like those that > kits (like Athearn's) come in? > > They'd need to be 12" plus long. > > --------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > Progressive Information Technologies > britton@pit-magnus.com > http://www.pit-magnus.com > 1 JPEG = 1K words > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Jerry, Athearn sells their boxes empty. Write or call and ask for prices. Charlie Fox ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: New "Keystone" Is Out Date: Tue, 2 Dec 97 08:43:19 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1239 Yesterday I received the new (Winter 1997) issue of "The Keystone". It features an article on railfanning around Harrisburg, Pa. 8-) The article is similar to the full issue article on Baltimore that ran a few years back. Not quite as extensive, but still quite good. Rather than approaching the topic from a historical perspective, it is a recollection of the author's memories of Harrisburg. Some excellent photos, some notes on operations, some trackage plans and maps, and a history of the passenger station highlight the article. Hmmm. Maybe I ought to volunteer to write about York.... --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Dec 97 8:25:10 EST From: Subject: re: Cabin Cars Content-Length: 2319 Do you know there is a PRR N5c in the courtyard of the Susquenita Middle School in Duncanon, Pa (at last I think it is Duncannon). I believe the scholl students helped to restore it. I've seen it from a distance and it looks pretty good. Don't know the number though, maybe some one else does. K. Kollar ------------- Original Text From: Roger Kirkpatrick , on 11/30/97 9:17 PM: Hody, A couple of questions concerning preserved cabin cars: Felton, DE, PRR # &/or PC #? Lewes, DE, DCLR 1000, PRR #? Wyoming, DE, #?, location? Winslow, NJ. PRR # &/or Amtrak #? East Emporium, PA, #?, location? Lickville, PA, #?, Rt 72, near I-81; Mill Hall, PA, #?, Station Restaurant; Minorville, PA, #?, near Reading Depot; Pecan, PA, #?, Vision Quest; Newport, RI, #?, Old Colony & Newport. Thanks for any help you can give with these question. Cheers, Roger P.S. Lots more questions in places like IN, MI, NY, and OH! _______ S. Roger Kirkpatrick ______|_____| [ ] |___________ 927 Colegate Drive | | | | Marietta, OH 45750 | | [ ] [ ] | | | | | | Fax - 614-376-4777 |__|______________________|__| Home - 614-374-6732 O<=>O O<=>O ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Robert Johnston Subject: RE: PRR-Talk Digest - 12/02/97 Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:27:49 -0500 Content-Length: 536 Is there a list archive ? Is it searchable? Is there interest in having a searchable list archive? TIA rwj ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR box cars From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 97 08:33:38 -0500 Content-Length: 2119 . . . >>It appears as if among C&BT (X29 rebuids and X43's), Red Caboose(X29's) and >>Bowser (X31's) almost all of the 40-50's era PRR boxcar need may be met with >>accurate kits. Now for an X37, hmmm. >> >>regards >>Andy Miller > > >I was under the impression that the X43 series had diagonal panel roofs. >The C&BT kits lettered for the PRR X43c that I've seen did not reflect this. >Was this an older release or do I have my details wrong? In any case, I'm >definetly going to try the new X29b and X29d kits. A freshly painted X29d >with the "Don't Stand Me Still!" slogan would be inspiring. > >Since the Tichy USRA boxcar kit was mentioned in this string, I have another >question. I had intended to build up one of these to represent an X26. >However, since I model Autumn 1955, I had some reservations. Was the number >of X26 still in revenue service large enough to justify it appearing on my >layout? Also, even if I used the Youngstown doors and added AB brakes, >wouldn't the as-built roof be incorrect for a car this late in its life? >Would lettering it for MoW service be an more plausible option. I haven't >ran across any photos of X26 in MoW paint, although I haven't really looked >that hard. I'd like to have this kit on my PRR roster. > >Brian Brooks - ------ Brian, The Tichy car I spoke of was the rebuilt all-steel x26c and some of them were certainly around in 1955. As for the roof of the x43, I'll have to go back to my library and check your assertion that they had a diagonal stamped roof. I thought they were Murphy roofs, like the C&BT kit. Anyone else on line know? (Rich?) regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 08:56:55 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Re: more on the Florida trains Content-Length: 801 Greetings, The "Southerner" was a daily all coach train from New York and New Orleans. Service started in early 1941. Power was EMD E6's. Shooting from memory but think it was "streamlined" from the beginning. Used lightweight coaches with stainless steel bodies. If some one has one look in the 42 or 43 Car Builders Cyclopedia. Sincerely, S.A. McCALL hosam ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:39:40 -0500 (EST) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: PRR box cars Content-Length: 1247 In a message dated 97-12-02 08:58:06 EST, asmiller@mail11.mitre.org writes: << The Tichy car I spoke of was the rebuilt all-steel x26c and some of them were certainly around in 1955. As for the roof of the x43, I'll have to go back to my library and check your assertion that they had a diagonal stamped roof. I thought they were Murphy roofs, like the C&BT kit. Anyone else on line know? (Rich?) >> I am at work and will need to check material at home. Please remember the primary differences among the X43 subclasses was the manufacturer except the X43C which has an 8 foot door instead of the seven on the other cars. Again I don't have the information at hand, but weren't the X43C the cars leased from Chicago car company? This may explain a different roof on the X43C. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out Date: Tue, 2 Dec 97 12:25:19 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1987 On 12/2/97 1:11 PM, LINESWEST@aol.com (LINESWEST@aol.com) wrote: >WEll, its good to know that they've finally have appected that this is is the >1990s and the days of hot lead and zinc half-tones dipped inn acid baths are >long over. I hope this guy has heard about HTML. As a recent new member of the PRRT&HS (1997) and as someone who has worked in the publishing business for ten years, I must comment that "The Keystone" is one of the finest magazines out there. The quality of paper and the inks are first rate! I am not so critical of the photos, as we don't know how good the originals are. Remember, the PRR has been gone for 30 years! The design (layout, fonts, etc.) of "The Keystone" are, overall, well planned and pleasing to the eye. "The Keystone", by itself, is worth the cost of membership in the PRRT&HS. As for you last comment, the PRRT&HS already missed the boat, err loco, on the Internet. There was a time when many of us were willing to help. They didn't want it, so we (myself, Mark, others) created our own shrines to the Pennsy. Short of putting past "Keystone"'s on the net (which they won't do, due to the income they bring in otherwise), I don't think there is ANYTHING the PRRT&HS can do on the net that will truly be a "draw" to those of us who have been surfing for the past year or two. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:38:35 -0500 (EST) From: Roger Kirkpatrick Subject: Cabin Cars Content-Length: 1037 I'll add the Terre Haute car to the list. I THINK the Shipshewana car is PRR 478398/PC 19389, anyone know for certain? Thanks, Roger _______ S. Roger Kirkpatrick ______|_____| [ ] |___________ 927 Colegate Drive | | | | Marietta, OH 45750 | | [ ] [ ] | | | | | | Fax - 614-376-4777 |__|______________________|__| Home - 614-374-6732 O<=>O O<=>O ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:11:11 -0500 (EST) From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out Content-Length: 943 I also got mine yesterday. I found an interesting tidbit of information on pg. 3: "Flash! Addition to Keystone Staff "Mike Coyne has joined our staff ands has begun providing digital imaging services to enhance presentation. More information on Mike will appear in our next issue." WEll, its good to know that they've finally have appected that this is is the 1990s and the days of hot lead and zinc half-tones dipped inn acid baths are long over. I hope this guy has heard about HTML. Tom Vondruska ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 15:26:27 -0500 From: Brian Brooks Subject: Re: PRR box cars Content-Length: 1941 At 09:39 AM 12/2/97 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-12-02 08:58:06 EST, asmiller@mail11.mitre.org writes: > ><< > The Tichy car I spoke of was the rebuilt all-steel x26c and some of them >were > certainly around in 1955. As for the roof of the x43, I'll have to go back > > to my library and check your assertion that they had a diagonal stamped >roof. > I thought they were Murphy roofs, like the C&BT kit. Anyone else on line > know? (Rich?) > >> >I am at work and will need to check material at home. Please remember the >primary differences among the X43 subclasses was the manufacturer except the >X43C which has an 8 foot door instead of the seven on the other cars. Again >I don't have the information at hand, but weren't the X43C the cars leased >from Chicago car company? This may explain a different roof on the X43C. > >Rich Orr Andy and Rich, I went back and checked my references and can definetly vouch for diagonal roofs on the X43a and X43b subclasses. The only photo of an X43c that I have is taken at a low angle, so the roof is anyone's guess. A lettering diagram drawn exclusively for the X43c shows a diagonal roof, but that can't be taken as gospel. I'm sure Rich will have something more definitive. Other than the doors and builders, another visible distinction between the subclasses is that the X43a had 12 panel welded sides while the X43b and c were 10 panel riveted cars. What was the PRR class of trucks? Brian Brooks ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "N Campbell" Subject: Box Cars [X-43] Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:32:31 -0500 Content-Length: 2608 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BCFF37.81C3ACA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all' In following the thread on box cars the question of what type roof the = X43s have came up.From the information I have all of these cars had = diagonal paneled roofs.It appears that all car built or rebuilt after = 1950 had these roofs, except the X48s which were PS1 design cars.My = information also shows that some of the X29b cars were also built with = the newer style roof. My suggestion, if you want to use the C&BT cars the ones with the 4-3-1 = ends and the diagonal paneled roof would be the closest. Travel by Rail Neil Campbell Ncampbell@iname.com ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BCFF37.81C3ACA0 Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 18:48:33 -0500 From: jlevine@mcls.rochester.lib.ny.us Subject: K-Line PRR F7 Content-Length: 698 Does anyone have any experience using K-Line's new A-B-A latch-up O-Scale? It also has heavyweight cars to match. It looks great, and got good reviews from Toy Train Journal but I have not yet seen it run. For $450, I'd like someone's opinion. Thanks. Jeff Levine ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: more on the Florida trains Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 21:36:28 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 1235 On 2 Dec, Doug Drew wrote: > >> In fact, all passenger > >> trains (from all railroads) were diesel powered southbound from Union > >> Station, Washington, D.C> > > Andrew -- note the year referred to in the original message -- 1938. > > Unless Coast Line (and Seaboard) were running their diesels through to > Washington, Florida trains between DC and Richmond were probably STEAM > powered, with those beautiful Governor-class 4-8-4's you refer to. I > don't believe RF&P had passenger diesels until after the war, but I could > be wrong (I am so often!). A quick flip through Welsh shows an ACL E3A in 1939. SAL got E4As in December 1939. Seaboard had an E4A in February 1939. Dennis PS: Welsh: By Streamliner New York to Florida, Andover Junction, 1993. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 20:57:23 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Florida train power at Wash DC Content-Length: 1093 >On 2 Dec, Doug Drew wrote: > >> In fact, all passenger >> trains (from all railroads) were diesel powered southbound from Union >> Station, Washington, D.C> ===== Check me on this, but if I recall correctly, didn't the PRR electrification extend across to Potomac Yard in Alexandria, where the formal transfer took place to RF&P? Bob Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" ____________________________________________ "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com "The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service" ____ooo___ooo__oo_0000_o_o__________________ ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:02:37 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: HTML? Content-Length: 875 >I hope this guy has heard about HTML. > >Tom Vondruska ===== Um; Harrisburg - Toledo Metropolitan Line, right? Traction line back in the 20s? Psycho Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" ____________________________________________ "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com "The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service" ____ooo___ooo__oo_0000_o_o__________________ ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: K-5, now P70's Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 22:14:37 -0500 Content-Length: 1288 Bob Zoeller wrote: BTW, the Bachman 30's color scheme they put out did have a better Tuscan (again, IMHO) and the olive underbody and roof under room lighting is not far from a grimy black, so I have been using these P70 and PB70s in with my other make cars. I have looked over the "older" ones with the olive paint and they do look nice. I have a set of the original Bachmann offerings because I was dumb enough to believe the reports that they were only going to be run once. If I would have waited and it was true, I guess I would have been even dumber! I have at least one of the P70's made when "Alco Models" was offering them before they sold off the models. There is a distinct difference between the Tuscan on the "Alco" and the more "faded Tuscan" on the Bachmann cars. Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 22:48:40 -0500 (EST) From: PRRMAN@aol.com Subject: Toledo Branch questions Content-Length: 1400 1. Prior to the mid-1950's reorganization, on which division was the Toledo Branch? 2. The branch originally ran from Toledo Jct., 6.5 miles west of Mansfield, northwest in almost a straight line to Carrothers, then on to Toledo. A 1956 ETT shows the entire branch to be in service. But the same ETT shows both passenger trains staying on the Chicago main to Colsan (0.3 mile west of Bucyrus), then going north on the Sandusky Branch to Carrothers, at which point they join the Toledo Branch. The next ETT in my possession is 1965, by which time the Toledo Jct.-Carrothers portion was gone. I would say it's safe to assume that the passenger trains ran via Colsan from 1956 until the end of passenger service. But when did they begin running this way? Or did they always run this way? Could it be that the PRR, in 1956, was all ready to abandon Toledo Jct- Carrothers, and had already rerouted the passenger trains off the segment? Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 08:44:33 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: early passenger diesels Content-Length: 1195 Greetings, There has been some discussion concerning dates of dieselization on Florida trains. Here is some information on these trains. With respect to the RF&P operations from Richmond, VA to Washington DC, SAL and ACL diesels were hired by the RF&P for the name trains "Orange Blossom Special", "Silver Meteor" and "Champions". SAl bought their diesels in 1938, ACl bought theirs in 1939. RF&P did not buy any passenger diesels until 1949. The RF&P was at one time owned by 6 railroads equally. These roads were; The Pennsylvania Railroad, Atlantic Coast Railroad, Southern Railway, Chesapeake & Ohio Railway, Seaboard Air Line Railway and the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad. All grand old fallen flags........ Sincerely, S.A. McCALL hosam ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Florida train power at Wash DC From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 97 08:48:07 -0500 Content-Length: 791 >Check me on this, but if I recall correctly, didn't the PRR electrification >extend across to Potomac Yard in Alexandria, where the formal transfer took >place to RF&P? > >Bob Boyd - ------- Bob, I don't know that that is true, but it ,makes sense since it would keep the deisels (and steam) out of the tunnels under the Capitol. regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gene Chase" Subject: MP-54's Again Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:49:25 -0500 Content-Length: 889 I recently saw a picture of a MP-54 with red and white keystones. Is this typical or did Pennsy also use red and gold ones? Also, when Pennsy rebuilt nrs. 409-450, MP-54s in the Wilmington shops in 1950-53, did they replace all the Hyatt trucks with newer equalized trucks? Does anyone make these in HO? In the picture of 411, they sort of look like modified Commonwealth ones. Gene Chase Up pantographs and roll the Owl-Eyes, dreaming again. Prov 3:5-6 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: PRR New Products Date: Wed, 3 Dec 97 09:50:46 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 4906 Below are PRR (and other items of interest) excerpts from "The Railroad Telegraph" (http://www.walston1.com/trains/rrtel.htm): PROTO 2000 HO: Proto-2000 has announced the road names for the fourth run of the E-7A and E-7B locomotives. As far as quantities, we quote from the Life-Like release letter. "Due to component availability these locomotives will be even more Ślimitedą run than normal". E-7A Powered Locomotives * PRR (#5841A & #5848A) - Brunswick Green w/5 Stripes E-7B Dummy Locomotive * PRR (#5844B & #5853B) - Brunswick Green w/5 Stripes Delivery is scheduled for February. Prices will be $90.00 per E-7A and $45.00 per E-7B. Samples of the PA-1/PB-1 Diesel Loco were displayed at the Chicago Hobby Show. INITIAL road names... An Undecorated unit will also be available. Initial road names for the non-powered PB-1... An undecorated PB-1 will also be included. Mars lights and dynamic brakes will be available per the prototype. The A unit number boards will also be either original mount or 45 degree mount depending on the prototype. Price will be $90 for the PA-1 and $45 for the PB-1. The PA-1/PB-1 is scheduled to ship from Baltimore on December 15th. The initial run of Phase III GP-9ąs has been received. We still have most road numbers in stock. The price is $85.00 each. We have received and still have all three numbers of the PRR available. Please check our listing. PROTO 2000 N: Proto-2000 has announced their first release of N Scale SW-9/1200 switchers. Shipment is due in November. The following roads will be part of the first release: * Pennsylvania (#8521 & 8529) Brunswick Green The price is projected to be $65 per unit ATLAS - HO We still have the limited run three pack of PRR PS-2 hoppers in stock. The price is $39.98. The Atlas Classic line will also have reruns of the RS-1, RS-3, RSD4/5, RS-11, RSD-12, C-425, C-424 Phase I and C-424 Phase II. WALTHERS - HO Walthers will be offering a Waterfront scene as their "subscription series" for 1998. A car float and ferry slip are part of this offering. The separate cost is $374.86. If you subscribe for the whole scene, the total cost is $314.86; a savings of $60.00. With the subscription, you pay just $44.98, plus tax, per month for seven months. The following models are part of the subscription. * Railroading Along the Waterfront (book) $49.98 * Pier and Traveling Crane Set $74.98 * Municipal Pier Terminal $59.98 * Carfloat Apron $39.98 * Railroad Carfloat $39.98 * Railroad Tugboat (waterline model) $59.98 * Front Street Warehouse $49.98 In addition, the following items will be offered to compliment the Waterfront. * Pier Add-on Kit $19.98 * SW-1 Powered Locomotive ­ Erie, B&O, SP (tiger stripe),Southern, GN, PRR, CNJ, Undec ­ each $79.98 * Stevadore/Dock Worker Figure Set 10/ $19.99 * Street Track Inserts $11.98 * Tug Boat/Carfloat Crew Figure Set 6/ $14.98 * Idler Car Set ­ 3 Flat Cars w/handrails & steps for crew $21.98 STEWART - HO Stewart will be putting their HO C628 diesel into production later in the year (didnąt say which year tho...). Initial production will be undecorated followed by the PRR and SP. The LV SnowBird scheme has been bumped in favor of the PRR and SP. The LV will be done at a later date. There will be two different pilots, horizontal or vertical headlights and single or dual sand fillers. They will also be doing a Baldwin VO-1000 in HO scale and a 50ą RBL freight car. RED CABOOSE - HO The PRR X-29 40ą boxcar is now stock. The cost is $14.95 per car. The first version is a standard PRR Ball Keystone version with twelve different numbers. Red Caboose is sold out of the first run. They will be producing an additional twelve numbers shortly. We still have a good supply in stock but we no longer have all twelve numbers available. The next variation of the X-29 Boxcar is the PRR Shadow Keystone version. This is now available in twelve different road numbers. This model is now in stock. Two different variations are available in the twelve packs. Four cars have "Calendar" style numbers and eight cars have the "Normal" style numbers. The price is $14.95. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:51:11 -0500 (EST) From: TVPedro@aol.com Subject: Re Trains to Florida Content-Length: 754 I took my first train ride to Wash DC when I was 12 years old in 1940 on the B&O. As we pulled into Union Station I was amazed when I saw Green and Purple Steam locomotives, as they were all black in my world. ACL had to be running over the RF & P to get those purple locomotives into Wash. I don't recall seeing any Deisels. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Toledo Branch questions (fwd) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 9:53:23 EST Content-Length: 1724 > 2. The branch originally ran from Toledo Jct., 6.5 miles west > of Mansfield, northwest in almost a straight line to Carrothers, > then on to Toledo. A 1956 ETT shows the entire branch to > be in service. But the same ETT shows both passenger trains > staying on the Chicago main to Colsan (0.3 mile west of Bucyrus), > then going north on the Sandusky Branch to Carrothers, at which > point they join the Toledo Branch. Speculation. There's a sizable passenger station in Bucyrus (COLSAN). Also there's a quite sizable station in Crestline, which the beeline Toledo main would have bypassed (it comes off between Mansfield and Crestline, and finding the exact spot today is NOT easy). Perhaps the passenger trains took the routing you give so as to stop in Crestline. > The next ETT in my possession is 1965, by which time the > Toledo Jct.-Carrothers portion was gone. I would say it's safe > to assume that the passenger trains ran via Colsan from 1956 > until the end of passenger service. But when did they begin > running this way? Or did they always run this way? Could it > be that the PRR, in 1956, was all ready to abandon Toledo Jct- > Carrothers, and had already rerouted the passenger trains off > the segment? -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: Florida train power at Wash DC Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:04:13 -0500 Content-Length: 1018 > Check me on this, but if I recall correctly, didn't the PRR > electrification > extend across to Potomac Yard in Alexandria, where the formal transfer > took place to RF&P? __________________________________- Yes, it did, for freight traffic going to Pot Yard. Passenger electics changed out for diesels at Union Starion, across the river in Washington, D.C. The passenger power was parked and serviced at Ivy City, just NE of Union Station along New York Avenue, where the B&O and Pennsy mains paralleld for a bit, and was the stage for a few races out of town. Neat stuff. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 97 09:06:07 CST Subject: Forwarded message... Content-Length: 1445 Check me on this, but if I recall correctly, didn't the PRR electrification extend across to Potomac Yard in Alexandria, where the formal transfer took place to RF&P? Bob Boyd ********* Hi, gang, RE the PRR cantenary crossing the Potomac, it most certainly did and freight trains ran through to the RF&P yard at Alexandria. HOWEVER, I am fairly certain that PASSENGER trains had their power changed at Washington's Union Station. Sure, there would have been smoke in the tunnel but not much since they were not that long. I have certainly seen many photos of the Ivy City engine terminal with RF&P, SAL, and ACL power - both diesel and, I think, steam - which would confirm this. Also if I remember rightly (I used to live near Washingtion) the PRR freight line to Pot Yard cut off from the passenger route to Union Station somewhere below New Carrollton. PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR New Products Date: Wed, 03 Dec 97 10:15:47 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1178 >Below are PRR (and other items of interest) excerpts from "The = >Railroad Telegraph" (http://www.walston1.com/trains/rrtel.htm): >Samples of the PA-1/PB-1 Diesel Loco were displayed at the Chicago Hobby >Show. INITIAL road names... An Undecorated unit will also be available. Unfortunately, the undec units for this run only come with the dynamic brake blister on the roof. I'm almost certain that all of the PRR units didn't have this blister. (I finally dug up an Alco builders photo that shows a smooth roof...) Future runs will have undecs without dynamics though. Also, a friend of a friend helped LifeLike out with the Erie PA's and already has a production sample. The model looks great! Can't wait for a PRR one! - Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 97 09:20:47 CST Subject: Answers and Questions... Content-Length: 1786 Hi, gang, RE the Mike Danneman painting in TRAINS Magazine, I got a reply from MIke indicating that he does NOT have prints available. Forgot to bring his address but maybe we should inundate him with polite requrests to make prints available. And now a question: in reading the review in the latest KEYSTONE of the reprint of the ORER from 1952, the reviewer notes the listing of privately owned cars, some of which are milk cars, like the Supplee cars that were used on the Huntingdon & Broad Top, then sent east to Philly on the end of PRR locals. I happen to know that Breyer Ice Cream had a creamery at Port Royal on the Middle Div. I've always assumed that its purpose was to process local milk and send much of the results to their main plant in Philly (this is the same Breyer you can buy today, although I believe their Philly plant was shut down a few years ago). Anyway, did Breyer have their own milk cars, like Supplee? What other private milk companies shipped over the Middle Div.? I've bitten the bullet and created two General American-Pfaudler cars lettered for Breyers for my layout but sure would like to know how close to prototype such an arrangement was. Any ideas? PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: New Freedom Station Date: Wed, 3 Dec 97 11:23:00 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 968 Don't know how I missed it twice, but third time through the new Model Railroader I found an American Model Builder's ad in a lower left corner. (Forget the page number and don't have it with me; check the ad index.) Anyway, there's a photo of the new New Freedom Station model. This station was typical of many built at the time. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out Date: Wed, 3 Dec 97 12:24:53 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1789 On 12/3/97 1:13 PM, SUVCWORR@aol.com (SUVCWORR@aol.com) wrote: >I don't often find fault or diagree with any of your comments. But I must >disagree with your last sentence. The wealth of information in the Archives >at Lewistown begs to be placed on the internet. At a minimum the catalog of >material (currently be developed) should be on the 'net as a searchable >database. I would not expect the material (mechanical drawings, track >charts, painting diagrams, photos, etc to be published on the net because the >society intends on selling this material to maintain the archives and the >station. What has been posted through the efforts of a few pales in >comparison to the material which the Society has. Rich: How correct you are!!! I had totally forgotten about the archives! Yes, a searchable archive on the 'net would be fantastic! And, it would yeild sales for the society that aren't there now because nobody knows what's available! I suspect that if I ever got to see the archives in person I would die at that location...unable to ever leave! (Same goes for the archives at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania.) --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:28:35 -0500 (EST) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: PRR box cars Content-Length: 1269 In a message dated 97-12-02 08:58:06 EST, asmiller@mail11.mitre.org writes: << The Tichy car I spoke of was the rebuilt all-steel x26c and some of them were certainly around in 1955. As for the roof of the x43, I'll have to go back to my library and check your assertion that they had a diagonal stamped roof. I thought they were Murphy roofs, like the C&BT kit. Anyone else on line know? (Rich?) >> Andy: I checked all my photos and C&BT cars. The X43, X43a, X43b, and X43c all have diagonal panel roofs. The X43c has an 8 foot door. The X43a were the cars leased from Chicago Car leasing denoted by the white triangle above the car number. This was done so that any repairs were charged back to the leasing company. Any C&BT X43 with other than a diagonal panel roof is a production error. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:13:26 -0500 (EST) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out Content-Length: 1699 In a message dated 97-12-02 15:06:51 EST, britton@pit-magnus.com writes: << As for you last comment, the PRRT&HS already missed the boat, err loco, on the Internet. There was a time when many of us were willing to help. They didn't want it, so we (myself, Mark, others) created our own shrines to the Pennsy. Short of putting past "Keystone"'s on the net (which they won't do, due to the income they bring in otherwise), I don't think there is ANYTHING the PRRT&HS can do on the net that will truly be a "draw" to those of us who have been surfing for the past year or two. >> Jerry: I don't often find fault or diagree with any of your comments. But I must disagree with your last sentence. The wealth of information in the Archives at Lewistown begs to be placed on the internet. At a minimum the catalog of material (currently be developed) should be on the 'net as a searchable database. I would not expect the material (mechanical drawings, track charts, painting diagrams, photos, etc to be published on the net because the society intends on selling this material to maintain the archives and the station. What has been posted through the efforts of a few pales in comparison to the material which the Society has. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: New Freedom Station Date: Wed, 03 Dec 97 12:30:48 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1241 Local shop didn't have the station yet but they did have the American Model Builders PRR standard tool house kit. It's a nice kit. A bit later than the Kitbits version. This one is a bit more "functional" looking, no fancy gingerbread. Just started building it. Does anyone have a paint mix for the PRR's light & dark building colors (cream/brown)? Rob >Don't know how I missed it twice, but third time through the new Model >Railroader I found an American Model Builder's ad in a lower left corner. >(Forget the page number and don't have it with me; check the ad index.) > >Anyway, there's a photo of the new New Freedom Station model. This >station was typical of many built at the time. > >--------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 03 Dec 97 12:43:31 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: Answers and Questions... Content-Length: 6293 --====48525549495550544854===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" It's too bad Kalmbach chose to print the Horse Shoe Curve painting across the gutter of the magazine, foiling those of us with access to color photocopiers with enlarging capabilities (for our own use ONLY, of course). Danneman is no Howard Fogg (yet) but he certainly captured the power and the glory of the PRR in that image. He's nuts if he doesn't make BIG prints and sell them -- Pennsy fans have to be one of the biggest markets in the railfan universe... George.Pierson wrote: >Hi, gang, > >RE the Mike Danneman painting in TRAINS Magazine, I got a reply from MIke >indicating that he does NOT have prints available. Forgot to bring his >address but maybe we should inundate him with polite requrests to make >prints available. > >And now a question: in reading the review in the latest KEYSTONE of the >reprint of the ORER from 1952, the reviewer notes the listing of privately >owned cars, some of which are milk cars, like the Supplee cars that were >used on the Huntingdon & Broad Top, then sent east to Philly on the end of >PRR locals. I happen to know that Breyer Ice Cream had a creamery at Port >Royal on the Middle Div. I've always assumed that its purpose was to >process local milk and send much of the results to their main plant in >Philly (this is the same Breyer you can buy today, although I believe their >Philly plant was shut down a few years ago). Anyway, did Breyer have their >own milk cars, like Supplee? What other private milk companies shipped >over the Middle Div.? I've bitten the bullet and created two General >American-Pfaudler cars lettered for Breyers for my layout but sure would >like to know how close to prototype such an arrangement was. Any ideas? > >PRR forever! > >Sincerely, > >George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu >Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====48525549495550544854===1 Subject: Re: PRR box cars From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 97 13:02:01 -0500 Content-Length: 996 Rich, My recently purchased C&BT X43 has a Murphy roof. It apparently is a "production error" :-( Thanx for the data. Andy Miller >I checked all my photos and C&BT cars. The X43, X43a, X43b, and X43c all >have diagonal panel roofs. The X43c has an 8 foot door. The X43a were the >cars leased from Chicago Car leasing denoted by the white triangle above the >car number. This was done so that any repairs were charged back to the >leasing company. Any C&BT X43 with other than a diagonal panel roof is a >production error. > >Rich Orr > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:06:46 -0500 (EST) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: Toledo Branch questions (fwd) Content-Length: 991 In a message dated 97-12-03 10:28:19 EST, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: << Perhaps the passenger trains took the routing you give so as to stop in Crestline. >> Let us not forget that Crestline was the division point and crew chage point. Also, any attempt to join Chicago to Detroit trains with the NY - Detroit and Pgh - Detroit trains would have been more easily accomplished at Crestline.than Toledo Jct. Several years ago Jim Lynch did an article on the Toledo branch in the "Keystone" I check it when I get home for further information. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: Forwarded message... Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:22:11 -0500 Content-Length: 1612 > Also if I remember rightly (I used to live near Washingtion) the PRR > freight line to Pot Yard cut off from the passenger route to Union > Station somewhere below New Carrollton. _____________________ Right. The old Pennsy alignment still exists today. The freight line runs along the Anacostia River, around Capital Hill, and the passenger tracks meet up with it again on the elevated tracks around 1st Street and Virginia Avenue, a block or so from the Botanical Garden. The passenger tracks that come south out of Union Station are below ground and emerge from the 1st street Tunnel just prior to rejoining the freight main. "Back in the days", probably as interesting a place to watch trains as nearly anywhere, since between the junction and Pot Yard, one could see B&O, C&O, RF&P, PENNSY (yay!), Southern, Seaboard, Atlantic Coast Line, and I forget what else--all using the same tracks, including ALL the New York to Florida trains. Today, it's Conrail and CSX, with NS and other stuff. A far cry from where I am right now at C&O Milepost FM Zero, where nothing's moving. Must be a maintenance window, or something. PRR forever! Absolutely! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:08:24 -0500 (EST) From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: Toledo Branch questions Content-Length: 2157 1. The 135.6-mileToledo Branch, from Toledo Jct. in Richland County, Ohio, (located between Mansfielld, the Richland Co. seat, and Crestline in Wyandot County) through Toledo (in part on ANN Arbor trackage) and Monroe, Mich. (on Pere Marquette/C&O trackage) to Detroit Union Station on Fort Street was the oledo Division after the 1920 reorganization. The toledo Division also inclded the 110-mile Sandusky branch.that ran the the northern edge of Grogan Yard in Columbus to the lakeside classification and automatic coal loders in Sandusky Co. 2. "The Toledo Division in 1942" (The Keystone. Vol. 17, No. 1, Spring 1964, pp.6-27) states that the Toledo Branch tracks between Toledo Jct. and Tiro (between New Washington and vernon, SE of Carrothers, NE of Bucyrus) were removed in 1956.. An Aug. 14, 1955 Form 1 (sysytemwide passenger T.T.) doesn't show how the two listed trains the Red Arrow and the Pittsburgh Express (down rom three in 1942) get from Tiffin to Mansfield. The system map included in the timetable show the line from Toledo Jct. to Carrothers as being open with mainline status. Lter timetables show the dogleg through Bucyrus to Carrothers. I don't have any from 1956. According to information contained in the Winter 1997 issue of the Keystone, back copies of this issue are still available from the PRRT&HS for $8. Price includes postage It also has a roster ofToledo Division Motive power in 1942 and a story on Sandusky branch operations, one of the Pennsy's last bastions of steam in 1956. Theree is a story called "Toledo Triogy" in Vol. 20 #3 Autumn 1987 issue which is also available for $8. PRRT&HS P.O. Box 384 Upper Darby, Pa.,19082 hope this helps. Tom Vondruska ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR box cars Date: Wed, 03 Dec 97 15:55:07 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 3836 Hi guys, I found this in while cleaning out my mailbox. It's an old post from the freight cars list that answers some of the X43 questions..... ------- Forwarded Message Return-Path: freightcars-request@sunny16.photo.tntech.edu Return-Path: Received: from sunny16.photo.tntech.edu by protocol.zycad.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA25950; Mon, 15 Sep 97 20:28:56 EDT Received: from emin23.mail.aol.com (emout35.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.64]) by sunny16.photo.tntech.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA02567 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 18:36:01 -0500 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emin23.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id TAA20222; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 19:37:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 19:37:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <970915193404_-901430356@emout15.mail.aol.com> To: jeager@visionol.net, nehrij@rpi.edu Cc: freightcars@sunny16.photo.tntech.edu Subject: Re: Pennsy, D&RGW box cars In a message dated 97-09-14 23:07:34 EDT, jeager@visionol.net writes: << >C&BT has kit no. 10205 as a PRR X43, which I believe was lettered no. >602977 (which I believe was actually a X43a). I have that the PRR bought >their X43's from ACF in 1949 (?), but I have no other specs. such as >ends, roof, door, side panels. The series was 603500-603999, with a 7 >foot wide door. >The PRR's X43b were series 600000-601999, built in '50. Diagonal Panel >roof? (Did the first cars have the rectangular panel?) >PRR 70400-71899, X43c, built in '51. Diagonal Panel, right? >Were all the X29d's banana taper end cars? >Was there an X29c? > >C&BT has a double door set for D&RGW, kit no. 10410. I only know of the Rio >Grande's Dreadnaught end DD box cars. - John John, I show: X43 603500-603999 GRNV 12-50 7ft dr X43A 602000-603499 ACF 12-50=2-51 7ft YSD, diag-pan, R+3/4 early IDE (photo of 602000 in '53 Cyce) X43B 85400-86399 PSC 2-51 7ft 7SSD, diag-pan, R+3/4 early IDE 600000-601999 PSC -50=51 7ft dr, diag-pan, R+3/4 early IDE X43C 70400-71899 MtVC 9-51 8ft YSD, diag-pan, R+3/4 early IDE >> Since my memory short circuited again and Jim posted the above, I will build on his response. X43 - height to eaves was 1" taller than the other classes but the height of the running board was the same. At a minimum the pitch of the roof is different and this may indicate a different roof style. I have no pictures of the X43 roof. X43b - width at eaves is 1" greater than the other classes and the height to the extreme width is 3" less. The latter probably because of the superior vs. Youngstown doors. Both 5 and 7 panel Superior doors were used on this class All cars in the 600000 numbers had the 6" white triangle above the car number. This designated the cars for segregated maintenance. The cars were leased from the Chicago Car Co. and all maintenace cost were charged back to Chicago Car Co. X29c originally 6 cars 93650 - 93656 mechanical designation LC The 1963 ORER shows 93655 - 93683 with a total of 27 cars. It should be noted that the same number series 93650 - 93656 are designated X29c and X29d in various ORER issues. Only after the X29d rebuild are they consistent ly referred to as X29c. Rich Orr ------- End of Forwarded Message ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: Re Trains to Florida Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:25:47 -0500 Content-Length: 1645 The Southern green cab units could be seen at Ivy City engine terminal in the District itself. At the time I too thought it was neat to see that difference in color when I was a tadpole. Too bad tadpoles don't have cameras! Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ---------- > From: TVPedro@aol.com > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re Trains to Florida > Date: Wednesday, December 03, 1997 8:51 AM > > I took my first train ride to Wash DC when I was 12 years old in 1940 on the > B&O. > As we pulled into Union Station I was amazed when I saw Green and Purple > Steam locomotives, as they were all black in my world. ACL had to be running > over > the RF & P to get those purple locomotives into Wash. I don't recall seeing > any Deisels. > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: PRR in Wash area Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 17:14:57 EST Content-Length: 1307 > RE the PRR cantenary crossing the Potomac, it most certainly did and > freight trains ran through to the RF&P yard at Alexandria. HOWEVER, I am > fairly certain that PASSENGER trains had their power changed at > Washington's Union Station. Sure, there would have been smoke in the > tunnel but not much since they were not that long. I have certainly seen > many photos of the Ivy City engine terminal with RF&P, SAL, and ACL power - > both diesel and, I think, steam - which would confirm this. Also if I > remember rightly (I used to live near Washingtion) the PRR freight line to > Pot Yard cut off from the passenger route to Union Station somewhere below > New Carrollton. George, please see the ASCII map of the Washington area on my PRR questions page, http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Questions/new.html -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Toledo Branch questions (fwd) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 19:10:25 EST Content-Length: 2234 > << There's a sizable passenger station in Bucyrus (COLSAN). Also there's > a quite sizable station in Crestline, which the beeline Toledo main would > have bypassed >> > But according to my pre-1956 passenger Timetables, as my earlier post states, > show only Tiffin and Mansfield. Thus I must assume that the Detroit-bound > varnish took the "beeline" west from Toledo Jct. for at least as long as thee > my vernable copy of the Aug. 14, 1955 Form 1 was in effect. Tom, a passenger timetable may be insufficient to answer the question. Crestline may have been reached by the train, the crew changed, but there _could_ (in theory) have been no station stop there. (Jerry getting back to your question from a couple of weeks ago on the utility of employee timetables,) this is where the ETT is really needed. ETTs showed station stops with a symbol (I think PRR used "S") next to the time; other times shown are _passing_ times. Toledo Jct. and Crestline are likely to have been shown on the ETT. I don't have one here at work. :-( Anyone have one at home to find out fer sher? Also, anyone have that _Keystone_ with the Toledo Br. article in it (Vol 10, is it?) to find out when the Toledo Jct.--Carrothers section was removed? BTW, I 'fanned this area with Jon Roma this past spring. The RoW is _very_ hard to find anymore, most of it grown up with large trees. IN contrast, the RoW west from Carrothers, abandoned under Conrail in the late 80s, is quite easy to follow (and even drive). Conrail keeps a smidgeon coming out of Toledo to an industry or 2. Still visible from the Ohio Turnpike, just east of Exit 5, are 2 signals whose heads have been turned to the side for going on 10 years -- actually, maybe more like 15. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Washington-area debate Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 19:19:44 EST Content-Length: 2605 > > Also if I remember rightly (I used to live near Washingtion) the PRR > > freight line to Pot Yard cut off from the passenger route to Union > > Station somewhere below New Carrollton. > _____________________ > Right. The old Pennsy alignment still exists today. The > freight line runs along the Anacostia River, around Capital Hill, and > the passenger tracks meet up with it again on the elevated tracks around > 1st Street and Virginia Avenue, a block or so from the Botanical Garden. I'm going to disagree with you in part. Capitol Hill easily ends before reaching the Anacostia (from the west, that is). The freight line is well east of that. In fact, the freight line never leaves the coastal plain, whereas Capitol Hill is the very beginning of the piedmont of the Alleghenies. (I know, details, details.) In DC proper, the freight line spends all or nearly all of its time travelling compass westbound, having done most of its compass southbound travel outside of city limits. It cuts off the NEC at LANDOVER tower in the town of the same name, and quite close to a stop of the Orange Line. (Plus something - Blue? Line.) You can tell where the junction is very easily, since the high tension lines did not follow the passenger main into Union, but rather followed the freight main to the last substation, which was somewhere along that freight line, don't remember where exactly anymore, but across (on the west side of) the Anacostia River Movable Bridge as I recall. > The passenger tracks that come south out of Union Station are below > ground and emerge from the 1st street Tunnel just prior to rejoining the > freight main. Exactly, at VIRGINIA tower. Freight tracks go thru Virginia St. Tunnel in southeast DC. The tracks that bypass the Capitol are the 2-track passenger line to the south. They actually curve to the east, then back west, ??? to avoid the Capitol's foundation, or other foundations??? VIRGINIA still stood last time I was there (1 year ago), easily seen from the VRE station at L'Enfant Plaza, just south of the Smithsonian's Air and Space Museum. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:58:10 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: PRR power in Wash DC Content-Length: 1530 >>Check me on this, but if I recall correctly, didn't the PRR electrification >>extend across to Potomac Yard in Alexandria, where the formal transfer took >>place to RF&P? >> >>Bob Boyd >- ------- > >Bob, >I don't know that that is true, but it ,makes sense since it would keep the >deisels (and steam) out of the tunnels under the Capitol. > > >regards >Andy Miller ====== The thing I find curious is that, if the tunnel clearances at DC were too tight for domes and highliners, how did they get electrics thru there? My guess is they were using the L5s on third rail? Or were the DD-1s assigned there (although I understand the DD-1s were at NYC). If anyone can supply this detail, I am starting to rough in the page on electric power, and it would be useful. Thank you! Bob Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" ____________________________________________ "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com "The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service" ____ooo___ooo__oo_0000_o_o__________________ ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:58:24 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Re Trains to Florida Content-Length: 1394 TVPedro@aol.com writes: >I took my first train ride to Wash DC when I was 12 years old in 1940 on the >B&O. >As we pulled into Union Station I was amazed when I saw Green and Purple >Steam locomotives, as they were all black in my world. ACL had to be running >over >the RF & P to get those purple locomotives into Wash. I don't recall seeing >any Deisels. > ===== I suspect, as a practical matter, that all the Florida participants motive power wound up going back and forth as need dictated, even if it ment crossing territorial boundrys on occasion. Its a shame the RF&P never electrified: we might have seen GG-1 in Broad Street Station, Richmond! Bob Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" ____________________________________________ "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com "The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service" ____ooo___ooo__oo_0000_o_o__________________ ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 20:21:53 -0600 From: Bob Webber Subject: Re: PRR power in Wash DC Content-Length: 1515 Just an FYI: If you can find a book titled "Passenger Terminals and Trains (John A. Droege), a Kalmbach book ($7.50 in 1969), you will see: Track layouts for Penn Station New York, Broad St. Station, Pittsburgh , St. Louis Union Station, Sunnnyside yard, Washington DC, and some other, lesser known stations (Grand Central, North Station,etc. hehehe). Under the PRR: Cafe coach, dining car service, efficiency tests, ferry lines in New York, Jersey City station, lunch counter car, sanitary requirements for dining cars, snow melting car, Washington DC station. There's a lot more information pertaining to the PRR (and other roads as well). Just the throats shots are worth the price of admission. The prose can be tiring, but the photos are good - and the track layout for Pennsylvania station is a foldout that covers 5 pages - and is an interlocking diagram. Also a great diagram of St Louis station is a foldout. Lots of detail on interlocking plants. Check it out - it should be fairly easy to find... Bob Webber http://www.concentric.net/~Rswebber/ ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 21:47:52 -0500 Subject: Request Info-Pine Barrens temporary or narrow rail gauge lines From: carl-vic-vogel@juno.com (Carl K Vogel) Content-Length: 1048 Hello everyone: I could use some historical assistance. Does anyone know of temporary, light rail or narrow gauge rail lines that connected with PRR, PRR Shore lines, or other combinations of Reading, PRR, etc? I understand some sand quarrys or logging outfits used light railed vehicles to move materials. Does anyone have any info to back this up? Was there any of the above rail lines that actually connected with PRR, Seashore lines, Reading, etc. in the New Jersey Pine Barrens. It might be an idea worth modelling. Thanks, Carl K.Vogel Recently Reinstated Chief Engineer Taunton & Tuckerton Railway ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 12/02/97 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 22:33:51 -0500 Content-Length: 46121 I finally found my two books about the demise of the PRR. Most of my books have been in boxes since I moved 10 years ago, but these have been purchased since then. Michael Bezilla is right. One of the books is "No way to run a railroad". There is another one. Both books are out of print. However, I bought mine at a "Cancellation" book store. The first book is: The Wreck of the Penn Central; written by Joseph R. Daughen & Peter Binzen; published by Little, Brown and Company; copywrite in 1971. The second book is: No Way to Run a Railroad; written by Stephen Salsbury; published by McGraw-Hill Book Company; copywrite in 1982. Carl P. Izzo ---------- > From: PRR-Talk > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: PRR-Talk Digest - 12/02/97 > Date: Tuesday, December 02, 1997 12:10 AM > > PRR-Talk Digest - Tuesday, December 2, 1997 > > Selling Stuff on this List > by Jerry Britton > Modified P-70s (was K-5) > by Andrew S. Miller > Re: Have the N scalers among us heard? > by Andrew S. Miller > PRR box cars > by Andrew S. Miller > Re: N6a cabin cars > by Andrew S. Miller > Re: PRR box cars > by Jerry Britton > RE: PRR/PC villains > by Doug Drew > Novatach Erie-Builts > by Derrick J Brashear > RE: more on the Florida trains > by Harmantas, Andrew G. > Last GG1 run? > by Samuel J Fitch > Boxes > by Jerry Britton > RE: more on the Florida trains > by Doug Drew > Re: Boxes > by Rob Schoenberg > RE: more on the Florida trains > by Harmantas, Andrew G. > Re: Boxes for Completed Kits > by Jerry Britton > Re: PRR box cars > by > Re: more on the Florida trains > by Stephen Bartlett > Re: PRR box cars > by Andrew S. Miller > It's amazing what you run into - when you're not really looking > by > Re: PRR box cars > by Brian Brooks > Re: Last GG1 run? > by Chris Brandt > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Selling Stuff on this List > From: "Jerry Britton" > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 08:31:54 -0400 > > Okay, a few people have asked about selling stuff on this list. To date, > we have not had any problems. Let's do this, subject to change at my > discretion at any time: > > Selling "Pennsylvania Railroad" models and railroadiana on the list IS > fair game. However, non-PRR and "generic rr stuff IS NOT. > > The subject line of the post should begin with "SALE". This allows those > that don't want such mail to quickly delete it or even to build a filter > to auto-delete these messages. > > Posts regarding any particular item should be made only once. If it > doesn't sell, don't repost it...try selling it on eBay. > > Communications between seller and potential buyers should take place off > the list. > > If you have multiple items to sell, put them all in one message. DO NOT > send one message per item. This would be abusive to the listserv (and > could bruise it!). > > Let's see how this works out. I know that not everyone will be agreeable, > but I think the majority will have no problem with it. I will monitor its > use. Thanks. > > --------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > Progressive Information Technologies > britton@pit-magnus.com > http://www.pit-magnus.com > 1 JPEG = 1K words > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Modified P-70s (was K-5) > From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 08:44:23 -0500 > > Kit bashing is easier if you start with the ECW kit for the same car. I have > built single vesibuled, arch roofed, P70fr's and a PC70a cafe coach from > these. > > regards > Andy Miller > > >Hello all.. > > Harry...i have also talked to Ivan Frantz of the N.C. chapter about this... > > he thought it a good idea too....just gotta get the parts....LOL > > Also i am sending a letter to Bowser about it...that plus some ideas > > for new engines they could make from parts they have now... > > also maybe they could come out with parts to change bachmanns cars... > > I.E. roofs,doors,window inserts,etc...like the ones you can get to > > change ahm-rivarossi-ihc cars.would love to have the arch roof on some > > of my bachmann P-70 cars. > > > > H.Mummert > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: Have the N scalers among us heard? > From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 08:52:34 -0500 > > >Andrew S. Miller wrote: > > > >> Dennis, > >> I was thinking of you when I read the other day that Red Caboose is > >> entering > >> the N scale market. Their first offering is to be their X29 ! :-)) > >> This news > >> was from Model Railroad News. > >> > >> regards > >> Andy Miller > > > >Hello Andy, > >I am also an N'thusiast. I haven't heard about these new cars. What > >era are they? What are the dimensions and features? > > > >Thanks > >Roger Elliott > >relliott.telis@mail.telis.org > > > - ---- > Roger, > > The x29 was an early 20th century PRR box car. It was 40 ft long and 8 ft 6 > high inside. It will therefore be lower than the classic WWII era box car. > This size was the standard for all box cars up to the 30s. The PRR built > almost 30,000 of them! They appeared almost everywhere as a result. I > believe it was the largest single class of box cars ever built. The ARA > standard box car was very similar (different tuck spacing and a few other > details). Those were built by many other eastern RRs, notably the B&O, RDG, > CRRNJ, LNE. The cars lasted until the early 60s in some cases. > > regards > Andy Miller > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: PRR box cars > From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 09:04:22 -0500 > > Copied from the freight car list: > - ------ > >Under Walthers new product announcements listing on their web page, > >for December, they show "unknown mfr" 193, with dozens of freight > >cars listed. The vendor listing on another page shows 193 as being > >C&BT Shops, but a search on 193 yields zilch. > > > >I always thought you couldn't get C&BT stuff from Walthers. Has it > >(or is it going to) change soon? Most of the listed kits have been > >out for a while. > > > >Happy Turkey day. Now don't you guys fight while I'm gone. :^) > > > > > >Timothy O'Connor > >Chelmsford, Massachusetts > >http://www.avici.com/ > - ------- > Also under "New Product Announcements" they list their PRR rebuilds, the > X29b's and X29d's :-))). They are listed as "special order". I intend to > have my dealer special order it ASAP! > > I already built one of their X43c's and was impressed with the accuracy. They > have abandonded many of their old, terrible castings, and replaced them with > Tichy stuff. > > It appears as if among C&BT (X29 rebuids and X43's), Red Caboose(X29's) and > Bowser (X31's) almost all of the 40-50's era PRR boxcar need may be met with > accurate kits. Now for an X37, hmmm. > > regards > Andy Miller > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: N6a cabin cars > From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 09:25:41 -0500 > > >> Kris, > >> The trucks you descibe are PRR class 2D-F12. They are available from > Bowser > >> > >> who made them for the X31 and X32 kits. The idea was to have springs with > >> different spring constants so as to minimize natural oscillations and > >> produce a smoother ride. > >> > >> I believe that the N6a was the lines West version of the same N6b designed > >> for the east. Clearances in the east required the sloped sides of the > coupola. > >> > >> The sides of the N6a coupola were vertical. Otherwise I believe the cars > >> were the same. > >> > >> regards > >> Andy Miller > > > > > >For a point of information, the trucks under the cabincar are not 2d-f12 > >trucks. > >In Pennsy nomenclature, the 2 describes 2 axles. the d describes the > >journal size > >which in this case is a 5 1/2 x 10 if memory serves me. the f12 > >describes the > >truck which is the 12th in the series of freight trucks. Tender trucks > >have a t, > >passenger have a P. The D size journal is for a 50 ton car which is > >what the x31 > >and x32 are. The cabin cars didnot use a truck this large, as the > >cabincars > >don't weigh near what the 50 ton cars do loaded. The cabincars would > >take a 2a > >series truck. Having just moved, I can't place my fingers on my list to > >find > >which one. > > > >Doug Edwards > > > - ------- > Doug, > > You are quite correct.. The cabin car truck would certainly be a > 2A-Fsomething. > > However if the trucks are as Kris described, then the 2D-F12s which Bowser > makes will look correct in HO. > > > regards, > > Andy Miller > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: PRR box cars > From: "Jerry Britton" > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 09:38:42 -0400 > > On 12/1/97 10:04 AM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mail11.mitre.org) wrote: > > >Copied from the freight car list: > >- ------ > >>Under Walthers new product announcements listing on their web page, > >>for December, they show "unknown mfr" 193, with dozens of freight > >>cars listed. The vendor listing on another page shows 193 as being > >>C&BT Shops, but a search on 193 yields zilch. > >> > >>I always thought you couldn't get C&BT stuff from Walthers. Has it > >>(or is it going to) change soon? Most of the listed kits have been > >>out for a while. > > > >Also under "New Product Announcements" they list their PRR rebuilds, the > >X29b's and X29d's :-))). They are listed as "special order". I intend to > >have my dealer special order it ASAP! > > > >It appears as if among C&BT (X29 rebuids and X43's), Red Caboose(X29's) and > >Bowser (X31's) almost all of the 40-50's era PRR boxcar need may be met with > >accurate kits. Now for an X37, hmmm. > > I can supply C&BT Shops products through "Merchandise Service" > (http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/vendors.html), as well as Red Caboose. > > --------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > Progressive Information Technologies > britton@pit-magnus.com > http://www.pit-magnus.com > 1 JPEG = 1K words > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: RE: PRR/PC villains > From: Doug Drew > Date: 01 Dec 97 10:50:25 -0500 > > --====49544851524853494852===1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" > > I agree with your assessment of Symes. > Unfortunately, I think he was typical of a lot of railroad management of > that day -- up through the ranks, and thinking that their lines were still > operating in the world of the thirties and forties, rather than the "new > age" of the superhighway and commercial jet airliners. > "No Way..." takes your side about Bevan -- as a clever financial man who > modernized much of PRR's accounting practices and kept its head above > water with diversification long enough to obtain the approval for the merger > with its hated rival. Unfortunately, part of his strategy seemed to be to > drain needed cash from the railroad in order to put it into what seemed to > be more profitable investments. > It could be argued that in the merger game, Pennsy held all the trump > cards, yet misplayed every hand. This can be laid at the feet of Symes, and > also at a regulatory environment that still viewed PRR as "the dominant > railroad in the east", rather than the ailing giant that it was. One wonders, > though, even if they were allowed to merge with N&W and Wabash, would > PRR's fundamental problems have been rectified, or just merely delayed, due > to more infusions of cash? > > Mark D Bej wrote: > > > >'ve been thinking about the discussion here about various so-called > villains. > > > >I read _The Wreck_ twice, once quite a while ago, once recently when I > >acquired a copy of the book. I saw _No Way_ once, briefly -- it looked > >terribly dry. > > > >I did not come away with the impression that Bevan was being villainized > >in and of himself. Sure, he was one of the cronies who invested as a > club, > >lent to themselves, sat on each others' boards. > > > >My take (some tincture of time has been added) is that the villains were > >the directors and the board. The former for their lack of interpersonal > >cooperation and relative inactivity until things began to go bad; the > >latter for their total inactivity until things got terrible. > > > >To be perfectly honest, I think Bevan should be commended for keeping > the > >sinking ship afloat as long as he did. Remember that PRR was losing > >money, N&W making money in 1964. PRR diversifications were by and large > >making money, PRR proper still losing money in 1968. For how many years > >(decades?) can a company remain afloat while hemorrhaging? > > > >I'm still curious about those loans that were to come due just before > the > >bankruptcy declaration. Were these the bonds issued at the time of WW > II? > >ANyone know for sure? > > > >Finally, I think one villain gets scant mention in the book. That, > IMHO, > >is Symes. Symes probably would have been a lackluster, interregnum > >type of president had economic (_railroad_ economic, that is) conditions > >been better. As it is, he presided over the beginning of the end of the > >PRR, which started losing money in 1946 or 7, as I recall. It was he > and > >his staff who failed to grasp the scope of the post-war problem, the > totally > >changed marketplace. It was he who had Penn Station destroyed (rather > than, > >e.g., donating it to the city). It was he who wanted to dump a > profitable > >railroad (N&W) for a marginally profitable one (NYC), just to accomplish > >a vision. It was he who hired Saunders and installed him to complete > this > >vision. > > > >Symes, IMHO, is like the President who raises taxes and stalls the > economy, > >then ends his 2nd term. Saunders et al are hardly blameless but are in > the > >unenviable position of being the 1st-term President during whose term > occurs > >a recession started by the policies of the previous President. > > > >-- > >Mark D. Bej, M.D. > >bejm@eeg.ccf.org > > > >Clinical Associate, Section of Epilepsy & Sleep Disorders > >Epilepsy Research Fellow, Section of Neurological Computing > >Department of Neurology Phone (216) 445-2565 > >Cleveland Clinic Foundation S-51 Operator (216) 444-2200 bpr 24095 > >9500 Euclid Ave. Fax (216) 445-6617 (public) > >Cleveland, Ohio 44195 U.S.A. Voice mail (216) 444-0119 > (nonclinical only) > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- > >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > > >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > >------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > --====49544851524853494852===1 > Subject: Novatach Erie-Builts > From: Derrick J Brashear > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:38:41 -0500 (EST) > Subject: RE: more on the Florida trains > From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:51:39 -0500 > Subject: Last GG1 run? > From: sjfitch@juno.com (Samuel J Fitch) > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:16:11 -0500 > Subject: Boxes > From: "Jerry Britton" > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 13:27:50 -0400 > Subject: RE: more on the Florida trains > From: Doug Drew > Date: 01 Dec 97 13:48:42 -0500 > Subject: Re: Boxes > From: Rob Schoenberg > Date: Mon, 01 Dec 97 13:54:23 -0500 > Subject: RE: more on the Florida trains > From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:00:36 -0500 > Subject: Re: Boxes for Completed Kits > From: "Jerry Britton" > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 14:08:48 -0400 > Subject: Re: PRR box cars > From: SUVCWORR@aol.com > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:37:01 -0500 (EST) > Subject: Re: more on the Florida trains > From: Stephen Bartlett > Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 15:08:01 -0500 > Subject: Re: PRR box cars > From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 15:48:41 -0500 > Subject: It's amazing what you run into - when you're not really looking > From: VVA249@aol.com > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 16:55:34 -0500 (EST) > Subject: Re: PRR box cars > From: Brian Brooks > Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 17:19:53 -0500 > Subject: Re: Last GG1 run? > From: Chris Brandt > Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 18:57:26 -0500 From: BowerPRR Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 22:57:37 EST Subject: Re: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out Content-Length: 1750 Regarding Mr. Vondruska's comments about the new winter issue of the PRRT&HS "Keystone" magazine. I hope that he and others on this forum truly learn to appreciate the efforts and production of this publication. The staff of this historic society along with those of the other regional PRRT&HS chapters are unpaid volunteers. They bring their professional and intellectual talents to bear to bring all of us who are members GREAT and accurate historic documents that are first rate reference materials. I don't think it is in anyone's best interest to snipe or throw stones about their efforts. I understand the society has rebuffed several individuals who offered their digital expertise. Perhaps becoming a member, getting involved at meetings, having a say, casting a vote for officers may prove to be the most direct route to making changes. If that fails, then this forum could elevate itself to become the caliber of publication that would rival the "Keystone". That would require responsible unpaid volunteers! The Philadelphia Chapter PRRT&HS has its next meeting 12/6/97 at the Drexel Hill United Methodist Church in Philadelphia. Starts at 11:30 with a modelers forum: PRR Diesels model contest, followed by the regular meeting and presentations at 1 p.m. Get involved; plan to attend. Brad Bower ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 23:25:20 -0500 From: "Dave 'Fresh' Freshwater" Subject: Re: PRR New Products Content-Length: 2151 Jerry Britton wrote: > > Below are PRR (and other items of interest) excerpts from "The Railroad Telegraph" (http://www.walston1.com/trains/rrtel.htm): > > > PROTO 2000 N: > > Proto-2000 has announced their first release of N Scale SW-9/1200 > switchers. Shipment is due in November. The following roads will be part > of the first release: > * Pennsylvania (#8521 & 8529) Brunswick Green > The price is projected to be $65 per unit > Apparently, these units are delayed; the rumor is the container is hung up in the traffic jam on the west coast. M.B. Klein's in Baltimore (which has a close relationship with Lifelike) was still projecting mid-December on Black Friday. > SNIP< > RED CABOOSE - HO > > The PRR X-29 40ą boxcar is now stock. The cost is $14.95 per car. The > first version is a standard PRR Ball Keystone version with twelve > different numbers. Red Caboose is sold out of the first run. They will > be producing an additional twelve numbers shortly. We still have a good > supply in stock but we no longer have all twelve numbers available. > > The next variation of the X-29 Boxcar is the PRR Shadow Keystone > version. This is now available in twelve different road numbers. This > model is now in stock. Two different variations are available in the > twelve packs. Four cars have "Calendar" style numbers and eight cars > have the "Normal" style numbers. The price is $14.95. > In a couple of publications recently, Red Cabbose announced that they were going to also do the X-29s in N-Scale. This has caused lots of drooling among us SPFs in the smaller scale. Expected shipping was early 1998. Dave Freshwater North Potomac, MD ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR power in Wash DC Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 23:28:44 -0500 (EST) From: "Ken Reinert" Content-Length: 1516 Robert A. Boyd wrote: > The thing I find curious is that, if the tunnel clearances at DC were too > tight for domes and highliners, how did they get electrics thru there? My > guess is they were using the L5s on third rail? Or were the DD-1s > assigned there (although I understand the DD-1s were at NYC). They didn't. Passenger trains operating south of Washington changed power from motors to diesels (and vice versa) there. Except for a short part at the north end of the tunnel, they were never equipped to handle any type of electric power. The short stretch of catenary was to allow the motors to cut off of a southbound train so the diesels could couple on without getting a yard crew involved in juggling the train around. Freight trains operating over the "Main Line - Landover to RO" (the *real* main line, as the line into Washington Terminal was called at one time the Magruder Branch, I believe) ran with motors into Potomac Yard. A good portion of the north end of the yard was electrified -- but no wires were to be found on the south end. Ken ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 00:05:27 -0500 From: "Dave 'Fresh' Freshwater" Subject: Re: PRR power in Wash DC Content-Length: 1766 Robert A. Boyd wrote: > > >>Check me on this, but if I recall correctly, didn't the PRR electrification > >>extend across to Potomac Yard in Alexandria, where the formal transfer took > >>place to RF&P? > >> > >>Bob Boyd > >- ------- > > > >Bob, > >I don't know that that is true, but it ,makes sense since it would keep the > >deisels (and steam) out of the tunnels under the Capitol. > > > > > >regards > >Andy Miller > > ====== > > The thing I find curious is that, if the tunnel clearances at DC were too > tight for domes and highliners, how did they get electrics thru there? My > guess is they were using the L5s on third rail? Or were the DD-1s > assigned there (although I understand the DD-1s were at NYC). > > If anyone can supply this detail, I am starting to rough in the page on > electric power, and it would be useful. > > Thank you! > > Bob Boyd Bob, I know they ran GG-1s into Union Station here in DC. Just before Eisenhower's Inagruation, the brakes failed on one that crashed into the station and then through the floor into the basement. While I am not old enough to have been here then, Monday's "Trains Unlimited" episode had a segment at the very end about this accident. (Subject of the episode was train accidents and safety.) Dave Freshwater North Potomac, MD ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 21:10:34 -0800 From: Claus Schlund Subject: P54 cars on other roads Content-Length: 1239 To list members at PRR-TALK@dsop.com A while back, there was some discussion of P54 coaches on the list. My memory was that somebody mentioned that P54's were used by at least seven different railroads, but as far as I could tell, never did mention which seven roads these were. So, which seven roads were they? I will take a guess, but this is all it is: just a guess! (1) PRR (obvious) (2) LIRR (likely, since it was a subsidiary) (3) PRSL (same as above) (4) Erie (I have seen a photo of an ex-PRR PB54 w/Erie lettering, so a P54 isn't too much of a strech) (5) Susquehanna (same as Erie above) At this point, I give up! So if someone has the real answer, I for one would like to know... Till later... Claus Schlund (modeling steam-era PRR in N scale) San Francisco, CA ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 00:13:53 -0500 From: "Dave 'Fresh' Freshwater" Subject: Re: Answers and Questions... Content-Length: 2052 George Pierson wrote: > > Hi, gang, > > RE the Mike Danneman painting in TRAINS Magazine, I got a reply from MIke > indicating that he does NOT have prints available. Forgot to bring his > address but maybe we should inundate him with polite requrests to make > prints available. > > And now a question: in reading the review in the latest KEYSTONE of the > reprint of the ORER from 1952, the reviewer notes the listing of privately > owned cars, some of which are milk cars, like the Supplee cars that were > used on the Huntingdon & Broad Top, then sent east to Philly on the end of > PRR locals. I happen to know that Breyer Ice Cream had a creamery at Port > Royal on the Middle Div. I've always assumed that its purpose was to > process local milk and send much of the results to their main plant in > Philly (this is the same Breyer you can buy today, although I believe their > Philly plant was shut down a few years ago). Anyway, did Breyer have their > own milk cars, like Supplee? What other private milk companies shipped > over the Middle Div.? I've bitten the bullet and created two General > American-Pfaudler cars lettered for Breyers for my layout but sure would > like to know how close to prototype such an arrangement was. Any ideas? > > PRR forever! > > Sincerely, > > George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu > Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College > George, I've got a copy of the Jan. 1953 NMRA reprint of the ORER. I don't find any listing in it for Breyers as a private car owner, unlike Supplee. Dave Freshwater North Potomac, MD ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Dec 97 7:28:13 EST From: Subject: Trainphone Content-Length: 2571 Greetings everyone, I hope this subject hasn't been discussed recently since I don't like boring all of you with redundant questions. Can anyone explain a little about the PRR's Trainphone (or Train Phone?) communication system? Or suggest some good reference material? When did the system come into use? I've seen some photos of tenders with what looks like antennas on them. Was it used on both freight and passenger trains. Speaking of passenger trains I've seen brass models of PRR and other railroads with the antenna on passenger car roofs but I have never seen photos of other railroad locomotives with the antenna's on them. Are the models wrong or haven't I been looking hard enough at the other railroads. Bottomline, were they unique to the PRR and if so why? Recently someone mentioned that either train stations or interlocking towers were equipped with the trainphone as well. What would a typical antenna look like on a structure like this...the small round disks you see on some cabin cars or the long tubular antenna found on locomotives. And where would it be located..on the roof, on the exterior wall, on a pole??? Some photos show the antennas going through the roof on some locomotives but on others they seem to travel down along either the nose of the loco or down the rear of the unit. Was there a standard or did the interior plumbing of the locomotives require variations? In the cab what did the unit look like? A regular telephone handset with a button to push to either talk or listen? If noticed that the portion of the antenna that runs parallel to the loco roof is a different diameter than the vertical segment, the part that goes through the roof/nose. Why is that? Was the horizontal segment a hollow tube with a smaller diameter wire running through it? Was the Trainphone used system wide or limited to certain regions? Was a certain train assigned a specific frequency and could different trains speak to each other? I hope I didn't ask to many questions. Any info you can provide would be greatly appreciated. Kris Kollar ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: P54 cars on other roads From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 97 08:51:49 -0500 Content-Length: 1859 I was unaware of the Erie and SQH. The other raos I knew of was the Boston & Maine. They bought quite a few for commuter service. regards Andy Miller >To list members at PRR-TALK@dsop.com > >A while back, there was some discussion of P54 coaches >on the list. My memory was that somebody mentioned >that P54's were used by at least seven different railroads, >but as far as I could tell, never did mention >which seven roads these were. > >So, which seven roads were they? I will take a guess, >but this is all it is: just a guess! > >(1) PRR (obvious) >(2) LIRR (likely, since it was a subsidiary) >(3) PRSL (same as above) >(4) Erie (I have seen a photo of an ex-PRR PB54 w/Erie > lettering, so a P54 isn't too much of a strech) >(5) Susquehanna (same as Erie above) > >At this point, I give up! So if someone has the >real answer, I for one would like to know... > >Till later... > > Claus Schlund (modeling steam-era PRR in N scale) > San Francisco, CA > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: PRR power in Wash DC Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:09:06 -0500 Content-Length: 2080 > ---------- > From: rboydrrs@inlink.com[SMTP:rboydrrs@inlink.com] > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 1997 7:58 PM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: PRR power in Wash DC > > > The thing I find curious is that, if the tunnel clearances at DC were > too > tight for domes and highliners, how did they get electrics thru there? > > ________________________ > They didn't. Overhead stopped at at Union Station, almost up to the > mouth of the tunnel. Not through the tunnel. The overhead DID run > through on the freight tracks (which bypassed much of the passenger > train complex) along the Anacostia River, rejoining the southbound > main near 2nd St And Virginia Ave, and then the double track with > overhead went over the Long Bridge (that's the bridge's actual name) > into Arlington, and on to Pot Yard. > > And now, for those who aren't exatly fascinated by the Pennsy in and > around D.C., for those of us who were there, who rode the PRR and > other roads into and out of D.C, who saw steam and diesel, and > witnessed it all including the onset of Conrail, we think that the > Washington area railroad scene was perhaps the most diverse, ecclectic > (OK, and electric), colorful, streamline and limited dimintated, laid > back, and memorable as any. Sure, it wasn't as Pennsy intensive as > Philly, but there was still plenty enough to see. It's always such > fun when a thread starts and some of us can rant with at least a small > element of truth on our posts. And now, back to boxcars. > > Andrew h, kitbashing his own Pennsy E8's and E7's as we speak. To hell > with the ready-to-run stuff. > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Trainphone Date: Thu, 4 Dec 97 10:26:15 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 911 On 12/4/97 8:28 AM, kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL (kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL) wrote: >Can anyone explain a little about the PRR's Trainphone (or Train Phone?) >communication system? If someone wants to do a nice write-up on this, I'll post it as a FAQ at "Keystone Crossings". --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 97 08:49:37 CST Subject: Trainphone Content-Length: 1491 Hi, everyone, RE the question on the trainphone, sometime in this past year (I've got it at home) TRAINS magazine did an article on early radio communication on the railroads which included a very nice section on the PRR's trainphone. In general, it appears from what I can remember that the trainphone was mostly used on the busier mainline segments of the PRR. For example, in the recent color book on the line to Sodus Point you see almost no trainphone equipment. Trainphone allowed loco to caboose communication or either one to towers. Its range was limited because it was not true radio. Even within its range the transmission quality was not always good. By the early 1960s it was being phased out - I seem to recall that some GP 30's were delivered with trainphone. There's also an entertaining treatment of trainphone in that PRR b&w promo film from the 1940s which is widely available in video. PRR Forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:04:12 -0600 (CST) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: Re: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out Content-Length: 1520 In message <16b68b47.34862a46@aol.com> BowerPRR writes: > Regarding Mr. Vondruska's comments about the new winter issue of the PRRT&HS > "Keystone" magazine. I hope that he and others on this forum truly learn to > appreciate the efforts and production of this publication. The staff of this > historic society along with those of the other regional PRRT&HS chapters are > unpaid volunteers. They bring their professional and intellectual talents to > bear to bring all of us who are members GREAT and accurate historic documents > that are first rate reference materials. I don't think it is in anyone's best > interest to snipe or throw stones about their efforts. Well said Brad. Having published a quarterly organizational newsletter - one that never came close to the quality of the Keystone - for 10 years, I can attest to the work that goes into such a publication. The Keystone staff is to be highly commended for their efforts. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:04:16 EST Subject: Re: Answers and Questions... Content-Length: 1283 In a message dated 97-12-04 09:16:25 EST, dfresh20@erols.com writes: << I've got a copy of the Jan. 1953 NMRA reprint of the ORER. I don't find any listing in it for Breyers as a private car owner, unlike Supplee. >> Unfortunately, this does not mean that Breyer's did not have cars lettered for there products etc. As with tank cars, they may have leased GPEX milk cars and placed their own name but not reporting marks on the car. The ORER is only shows the owner of the reporting marks as the owner. Leasees are not shown. However, without photographic evidence, I would not create such a car. George, you might want to contact Breyer's for information and any photos which they may have in their corporate archives. Other companies have been willing to share such onformation and give permission to print the photos. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bill.laird@coastalcorp.com Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:04:19 -0600 Subject: Trainphone -Reply Content-Length: 4853 Kris, While not an expert in the RR Trainphone system, I have always been interested in it. I will try to answer some of your questions. >>> "kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL" 12/4/97, 08:17am wrote>>> >Greetings everyone, >I hope this subject hasn't been discussed recently since >I don't like boring all of you with redundant questions. It has, but I don't believe anyone minds a rehash for the sake of knowledge transfer. >Can anyone explain a little about the PRR's Trainphone >(or Train Phone?) communication system? The PRR Trainphone system was a low frequency, inductance communications system. Voice communications were transmitted via inductance by the long horizontal antennas on locomotives and cabin cars and received by antennas within a few yards of the track. Range was very limited. Not really a radio system, it was based on the electrical principal of inductance, that is the ability of an electrical conductor to pick up the current from another conductor close by. >Or suggest some good reference material? When did the system >come into use? I've seen some photos of tenders with what >looks like antennas on them. Was it used on both freight and >passenger trains. I am currently on a business trip to London and do not have access to my "library" so can't give a specific reference, but one of the RR magazines had an article in the last several months on early railroad communications systems. It covered the PRR Trainphone is some detail with some photographs. If you are unable to track it down, I would be glad to mail or FAX it to you upon my return home (mid Dec). >Speaking of passenger trains I've seen brass models of PRR >and other railroads with the antenna on passenger car roofs >but I have never seen photos of other railroad locomotives >with the antenna's on them. Are the models wrong or haven't >I been looking hard enough at the other railroads. >Bottomline, were they unique to the PRR and if so why? Some passenger cars (PRR and other RR's) had long horizontal antennas mounted on the roof for reception of standard AM radio broadcasts. Radio sets for "entertainment" were installed in some observation and lounge cars. However, the PRR was not the only RR to experiment with early communications systems, I believe UP was another. >Recently someone mentioned that either train stations or >interlocking towers were equipped with the trainphone as well. >What would a typical antenna look like on a structure like >this...the small round disks you see on some cabin cars or >the long tubular antenna found on locomotives. And where >would it be located..on the roof, on the exterior wall, >on a pole??? I don't know much about the trackside antennas, except that any facility that wanted to use the Trainphone (stations, towers, etc.) had to have an antenna. >Some photos show the antennas going through the roof on some >locomotives but on others they seem to travel down along either >the nose of the loco or down the rear of the unit. Was there a >standard or did the interior plumbing of the locomotives require >variations? In the cab what did the unit look like? A regular >telephone handset with a button to push to either talk or listen? >If noticed that the portion of the antenna that runs parallel >to the loco roof is a different diameter than the vertical >segment, the part that goes through the roof/nose. Why is that? >Was the horizontal segment a hollow tube with a smaller >diameter wire running through it? Only thing I can help you with here is that the smaller diameter segment of the antenna was the feedwire which carried the signals to and from the horizontal radiating element of the antenna. >Was the Trainphone used system wide or limited to certain regions? I believe it was more common in Lines East territory. >Was a certain train assigned a specific frequency and >could different trains speak to each other? There was only one "frequency" or channel, it was a party line affair. Different trains could communicate with one another if they were within the limited system range of one another (for example while passing one another). >I hope I didn't ask to many questions. Any info you can provide >would be greatly appreciated. >Kris Kollar Never too many questions, just not enough answers. Bill Laird ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 04 Dec 97 11:09:16 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: Trainphone (LONG!!!) Content-Length: 14323 --====48545051495456505353===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" OK, here's my understanding of how PRR's trainphone system came about, and worked: Trainphone was adopted by PRR as a result of the railroad industry in general losing the rights to 'service' radio bandwidth frequencies early in the century, due to apparent lack of interest, or the inability to find tube equipment durable enough to survive any length of time in on a jolting steam locomotive. Due to Pennsy's huge traffic, it found itself with the need for voice communication between trains and block stations, and between trains themselves. Train orders, telegraphy and the like weren't cutting it on PRR, yet it couldn't use radio for communication with trains. Trainphone used the track and/or lineside telegraph wires to convey voice messages between loco and cabin car, between trains, or between trains and block stations. It accomplished this by inducing a varying current into rail or wires via an energized coil -- something akin to a radio signal -- essentially turning rail or telegraph wire into a broadcasting antenna. The message broadcast could then be picked up by antenna-equipped trains or block stations -- the pickup antennae on moving equipment were the large 'handrail' structures on the tenders of steam locomotives, atop diesel locomotives, and virtually surrounding the longitude of a cabin car. Application of trainphone antennae had to vary, of course, with the application. Pennsy Power 1 showed some of the original oddball trial applications -- including atop the boilers of steam locomotives. I really don't know why diameters of the receiving antennae might have varied -- I assume regular pipe stock was used for receivers, and the smaller diameter "pipes" may have been solid rods. The current-inducers were small semicircular devices -- usually in pairs -- mounted on the underframes of the tender, diesel or cabin car. I'm not sure what block stations used for inducers or receiving antenna, or if they simply had their Inductive Train Telephone equipment (the formal name for it) connected to lineside wires or to the rail itself, as the antennae would have only been needed for moving equipment. The 'user-interface' was a typical telephone handset, hung on a box-like instrument next to the engineer's seat on locomotives -- I assume it would be above the conductor's desk in a cabin car. There was a speaker to get the user's attention (i.e. "MG tower to engineer LCL-1") and the handset was used to allow easier hearing and speaking on a noisy locomotive. I believe there were two "channels" or frequencies used, one for engine-to-cabin (or vice versa) communication, and one for train-to- train or train-to-block cabin communications. Trainphone was originally used on PRR's busiest lines, such as the Pittsburgh division, as enhancing the ability to move trains in dense traffic was its reason for being. I assume it probably was eventually used system-wide, but I don't know for sure. Does anyone know if it was used in the electrified zone, and if so, how did electric engines pick up the signal? I also don't know how on-train telephones used in some passenger trains fit into this system, or if they used another system altogether. The antennae seen on the roofs of some passenger cars would be for the on-train telephone. Trainphone equipment is one of the things that made Pennsy equipment distinctive, and is indicative of how the railroad coped with the huge traffic it carried. Looking forward to any corrections to the above. -- Doug Drew kkollar wrote: >Greetings everyone, > >I hope this subject hasn't been discussed recently since I don't like >boring all of you with redundant questions. > >Can anyone explain a little about the PRR's Trainphone (or Train Phone?) >communication system? Or suggest some good reference material? When did >the system come into use? I've seen some photos of tenders with what looks >like antennas on them. Was it used on both freight and passenger trains. >Speaking of passenger trains I've seen brass models of PRR and other >railroads with the antenna on passenger car roofs but I have never seen >photos of other railroad locomotives with the antenna's on them. Are the >models wrong or haven't I been looking hard enough at the other railroads. >Bottomline, were they unique to the PRR and if so why? Recently someone >mentioned that either train stations or interlocking towers were equipped >with the trainphone as well. What would a typical antenna look like on a >structure like this...the small round disks you see on some cabin cars or >the long tubular antenna found on locomotives. And where would it be >located..on the roof, on the exterior wall, on a pole??? Some photos show >the antennas going through the roof on some locomotives but on others they >seem to travel down along either the nose of the loco or down the rear of >the unit. Was there a standard or did the interior plumbing of the >locomotives require variations? In the cab what did the unit look like? A >regular telephone handset with a button to push to either talk or listen? >If noticed that the portion of the antenna that runs parallel to the loco >roof is a different diameter than the vertical segment, the part that goes >through the roof/nose. Why is that? Was the horizontal segment a hollow >tube with a smaller diameter wire running through it? > >Was the Trainphone used system wide or limited to certain regions? Was a >certain train assigned a specific frequency and could different trains >speak to each other? > >I hope I didn't ask to many questions. Any info you can provide would be >greatly appreciated. > >Kris Kollar > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====48545051495456505353===1 Subject: Trainphone FAQ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 97 13:15:29 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 737 Posted Doug Drew's explanation of the TrainPhone to "Keystone Crossings" as a FAQ. Thanks Doug! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Robert Johnston Subject: Re: PRR electrification at DC; Was Florida train power at Wash DC Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:22:00 -0500 Content-Length: 678 >Check me on this, but if I recall correctly, didn't the PRR electrification >extend across to Potomac Yard in Alexandria, [Robert Johnston] ... Yes, the Centenary frames are still in place3 from Union Station across the river into Alexandira. rwj ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out (fwd) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 12:50:38 EST Content-Length: 2493 > Regarding Mr. Vondruska's comments about the new winter issue of the PRRT&HS > "Keystone" magazine. I hope that he and others on this forum truly learn to > appreciate the efforts and production of this publication. The staff of this > historic society along with those of the other regional PRRT&HS chapters are > unpaid volunteers. They bring their professional and intellectual talents to > bear to bring all of us who are members GREAT and accurate historic documents > that are first rate reference materials. I don't think it is in anyone's best > interest to snipe or throw stones about their efforts. Brad, you may not have chatted over the Internet with Tom Vondruska much yet (are you a recent member of prr-talk?), but from my observations, Tom is not one to disparage anyone's good efforts. He (and others of us) _are_ discouraged sometimes at the "Philly, Horse Shoe, Pittsburgh, and something- or-other out west somewhere" attitudes of many PRR fans, but this sort of thing is reflected in PRR books as well, not just the _Keystone_. > I understand the > society has rebuffed several individuals who offered their digital expertise. > Perhaps becoming a member, getting involved at meetings, having a say, casting > a vote for officers may prove to be the most direct route to making changes. I was one of those that felt rebuffed. (Actually, more like ignored. I don't know if this ignoring is active or passive. I may be overinterpreting.) But as to your comments. We are members. Personally, I'm a member of 2 chapters plus national. I vote. I attended meetings when I lived in Philly. I maintain connections with some 'higher-up' members whom I know. I don't know everyone. Sorry to say, it hasn't helped. > The Philadelphia Chapter PRRT&HS has its next meeting 12/6/97 at the Drexel > Hill United Methodist Church in Philadelphia. Starts at 11:30 with a modelers > forum: PRR Diesels model contest, followed by the regular meeting and > presentations at 1 p.m. Get involved; plan to attend. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Trainphone (fwd) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 12:57:45 EST Content-Length: 759 > >Can anyone explain a little about the PRR's Trainphone (or Train Phone?) > >communication system? > > If someone wants to do a nice write-up on this, I'll post it as a FAQ at > "Keystone Crossings". I have 2-3 snippets, not formally written up, already on http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/trainphone.html -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: K-5, now P70's Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:57:47 -0600 Content-Length: 974 Harry Fitch wrote: "I have a set of the original Bachmann offerings because I was dumb enough to believe the reports that they were only going to be run once. If I would have waited and it was true, I guess I would have been even dumber!" Harry, I had some "collector" who wanted to sell me his original offerings of $15 P70s at $30 apiece. Fortunately, I hesitated just long enough for Bachmann's rerun to occur. The last three or four I obtained were throw-ins with a Bachmann K4 for about $60 at a swap meet. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: MP-54's Again Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:04:42 -0600 Content-Length: 948 Gene Chase wrote: " when Pennsy rebuilt nrs. 409-450, MP-54s in the Wilmington shops in 1950-53, did they replace all the Hyatt trucks with newer equalized trucks? Does anyone make these in HO? In the picture of 411, they sort of look like modified Commonwealth ones." I am not at home so I apologize for incomplete answers like this, but Pennsy Power III has a photo of MP54's with the newer trucks with an explanation--can't remember what it was, but at least it is a direction to go for info. Bob Zoeller. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: New Freedom Station Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:18:19 -0600 Content-Length: 2018 My post on the Milwaukee train show got lost in cyberspace,but I mentioned there was a sample of the kit there and it is beautiful, as are most of AMB's kits. In that lost message, I mentioned that it was painted in depot buff and asked if that was the true color, out of curiosity. I have standardized on "light building color" for a family appearance. I am also reasking if anyone on the list knows if PRR standardized on building paint schemes by division or region. Bob Zoeller ---------- From: Jerry Britton Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 1997 9:23 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: New Freedom Station Don't know how I missed it twice, but third time through the new Model Railroader I found an American Model Builder's ad in a lower left corner. (Forget the page number and don't have it with me; check the ad index.) Anyway, there's a photo of the new New Freedom Station model. This station was typical of many built at the time. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 13:39:21 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: Trainphone Content-Length: 2440 Greetings to Kris and the group, To answer your first question, the PRR promotional film _Progress on the Rails_ has a segement on the train phone system with some animated graphics that explains how it works and what the PRR used it for. I've seen video tapes with this film as part of a group of PRR films on them. Bill and Doug gave a pretty good description. However, it needs to be emphasised that it was an inductive system and not radio. Sort of like the inductive intercom and remote stereo speaker systems that were popular in the 60s and 70s where the signal was imposed on your house wiring. The train phone voice signal (down in the hundreds of kilohertz range i.e. very low freguency) from the towers was imposed on one of the line side wires. This induced a signal of the same frequency on the 'antenna' on the engine or cabin car (more like a signal probe than an antenna). The coil looking device tuned the 'antenna' to the low frequency signal. The coil allowed the 'antenna' to be shorter than really needed for the frequency. The same worked in reverse. The trains inductive 'antenna' induced the signal on the line side wires. Since the wires were long enough, tuning coils would not necessarily be needed in the towers. However I'm not sure how the PRR exactly had the towers set up. Equipment in the tower would have included an isolation transformer to separate the voice signal from whatever else the wire was being used for. I have even seen photos of portable train phone equipment. It was rather large and used a loop 'antenna'. The train phone system used two channels. They were designated 'H' and 'L'. This system should have been able to work perfectly fine in the electrified portions. The difference in frequency between the voice signal and AC overhead should have allowed the separation of the voice signal without undue hum. However, I can't remember ever seeing a photo of a GG I with train phone equipment. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 13:40:36 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Trainphone -Reply Content-Length: 952 bill.laird@coastalcorp.com wrote: > >..... However, the PRR was not the only RR to experiment with > early communications systems, I believe UP was another.... Bill, and the Group: In the late 1940's and early '50's, KCS locomotives had a communications system which made use of a long, horizontal rooftop antenna very similar to the PRR's. I do not know whether it was radio or an inductive system. About the same time the MP had what I thought was radio, but I never saw any visible antennas. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: George Pierson's Tuscarora Valley RR Date: Thu, 4 Dec 97 16:04:54 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 974 I have just posted on "Keystone Crossings" a description and plan of George Pierson's HO Tuscarora Valley RR...which features the Middle Division and includes the coal wharf at Denholm. You've gotta see this!!! See http://prr.dsop.com/layouts/index.html . Remember, I can give your layout a home on the web too...and it's free! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 12/02/97 Date: Thu, 04 Dec 97 16:02:01 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1345 There's also a third book: Sobel, Robert. Fallen Colossus, The Great Crash of the Penn Central. Weybright and Talley. 1977. I think it's also out of print but offers yet another angle on the demise... Rob ------------------ I finally found my two books about the demise of the PRR. Most of my books have been in boxes since I moved 10 years ago, but these have been purchased since then. Michael Bezilla is right. One of the books is "No way to run a railroad". There is another one. Both books are out of print. However, I bought mine at a "Cancellation" book store. The first book is: The Wreck of the Penn Central; written by Joseph R. Daughen & Peter Binzen; published by Little, Brown and Company; copywrite in 1971. The second book is: No Way to Run a Railroad; written by Stephen Salsbury; published by McGraw-Hill Book Company; copywrite in 1982. Carl P. Izzo ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 16:59:52 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Trainphone Content-Length: 949 George Pierson wrote: > > RE the question on the trainphone, sometime in this past year (I've got it > at home) TRAINS magazine did an article on early radio communication on the > railroads which included a very nice section on the PRR's trainphone. You can read the article in the Trains Magazine Online page at http://www.kalmbach.com/trains/ >From there I clicked on Search, then entered "communications" and got several choices. Enjoy. The article was in the August, 1997, Trains Magazine. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 17:20:44 -0500 From: Chris Brandt Subject: Re: Trainphone Content-Length: 1208 Doug Drew wrote: > Does anyone know if it was used in the electrified zone, and if so, > how did electric engines pick up the signal? I don't know for sure, but such an inductive system would invariably encounter interference in the presence of 11,000 volts at 25 cps. (Especially since the trainphone 'antenna' looks to be oriented in the same direction as the catenary wire.) At the very least one might hear a quaint hum similar to an AM car radio travelling under high tension lines. Just a thought. -Chris -- _______ ____________\ /____________ __________\ P /__________ ___________\ R R /___________ ____________\ /____________ _____________\___/_____________ Chris Brandt cobrandt@eclipse.net http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: New Freedom Station Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 16:37:12 -0600 Content-Length: 1085 Rob Schoenberg wrote: "Does anyone have a paint mix for the PRR's light & dark building colors (cream/brown)?" I use Polly S military colors. It may be off slightly, but closest for brown I have come is Nato Tricolor Brown. Purists might try and mix it with something to come a little closer. Or I would welcome a better suggestion, myself. For the light building color (not buff), I use Khaki mixed 50/50 with Polly S reefer white. Watch which khaki though. There are two and one is not correct. I always forget to follow up on these promises (sorry, lots on my plate) but I will try and get the exact number when I am home. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963 Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 18:40:24 EST Subject: Re: more on the Florida trains Content-Length: 560 My 1938 ACL Timetable does definately say Diesel south of Washington! Sorry I did not respond sooner, had a computer problem. Harold ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 21:03:16 EST Subject: Re: Re Trains to Florida Content-Length: 732 In a message dated 97-12-04 10:32:55 EST, rboydrrs@inlink.com writes: >Its a shame the RF&P never electrified: we might have seen GG-1 in Broad Street Station, Richmond! We may yet live to see catenary to Richmond. But I'm afraid the ceremonial first train won't be hauled by a GG-1 ! Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 21:03:17 EST Subject: Re: PRR in Wash area Content-Length: 898 In a message dated 97-12-04 10:33:08 EST, you write: > Sure, there would have been smoke in the >> tunnel but not much since they were not that long. Another factor here is that the tunnel is on a steep southward downgrade. Trains leaving Washington could just release brakes and get moving with virtually no smoke. Trains arriving, if in the hands of a capable engineman, could drift most of the way through the tunnel on their own momentum. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GLD 828 Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 23:03:35 EST Subject: Attn: N-Scalers Content-Length: 638 As a fellow Pennsy N-Scaler, I'm looking for a pair of Atlas Gp30's #4734 & 4735. If you have these and are willing to sell or trade these for something Please e-mail $/ trade and condition to gld828@aol.com Thanx ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 23:09:42 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out Content-Length: 3450 Many of us would like to have the opportuninity to attend such meetings. When they hold one close enough for me to drive, I will certainly try. The furthest east would be Columbus Ohio. What, inconvenient for founding members to head West? Hmm. Do they really want my participation. I know. It would be nice, but . . . This is no slam. It is a recognition of fact. I live outside of the envisioned active area of the Society, and do not have the finances to just travel for such a meeting. Maybe it would be etter would be to hold the meetings & voting electronically for those who cannot come in person. I joined the Society this year. The KEYSTONE is my only tangible benefit. It is certainly first rate. The Society will need to grow in new directions, or it will atrophy. It has the potential to be one of the Web areas that just pulls people in. Look at the quality of the KEYSTONE. It will require thinking "outside the box" to make it happen. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS BowerPRR wrote: > > Regarding Mr. Vondruska's comments about the new winter issue of the > PRRT&HS > "Keystone" magazine. I hope that he and others on this forum truly > learn to > appreciate the efforts and production of this publication. The staff > of this > historic society along with those of the other regional PRRT&HS > chapters are > unpaid volunteers. They bring their professional and intellectual > talents to > bear to bring all of us who are members GREAT and accurate historic > documents > that are first rate reference materials. I don't think it is in > anyone's best > interest to snipe or throw stones about their efforts. I understand > the > society has rebuffed several individuals who offered their digital > expertise. > Perhaps becoming a member, getting involved at meetings, having a say, > casting > a vote for officers may prove to be the most direct route to making > changes. > If that fails, then this forum could elevate itself to become the > caliber of > publication that would rival the "Keystone". That would require > responsible > unpaid volunteers! > > The Philadelphia Chapter PRRT&HS has its next meeting 12/6/97 at the > Drexel > Hill United Methodist Church in Philadelphia. Starts at 11:30 with a > modelers > forum: PRR Diesels model contest, followed by the regular meeting and > presentations at 1 p.m. Get involved; plan to attend. > > Brad Bower > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", > a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html > . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 23:31:26 EST Subject: Re: Trainphone (LONG!!!) Content-Length: 1258 One important fact about the 1'' piping used as antenna. It was 1'' conduit that was insulated from the carbody. Inside was the actual antenna wire. The piping was protection from the elements to preserve the antenna. To see what trainphones look like without the piping look at pictures of some early Kansas City Southern E units. They were also equipted with trainphones but without the protective piping. I found out about trainphone construction from some PRR diagrams while considering installing them on my 1 to 1 PRR N-5C. By the way for post trainphone modelers not all of the posts were cut off when removed. My N-5C ex PRR 477822 /CR 23145 still has the bases of both the pipe supports and receiver discs still on the roof. Ken McCorry ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Trainphone From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 97 08:32:12 -0500 Content-Length: 1015 Drew McGheesaid (in part): . . . > >This system (train phone) should have been able to work perfectly fine in the electrified >portions. The difference in frequency between the voice signal and AC >overhead should have allowed the separation of the voice signal without >undue hum. However, I can't remember ever seeing a photo of a GG I with >train phone equipment. > >Drew R. McGhee - ------- Would an antenna have been neceessary on a GG-1 if the signal had been induced in the catenary. I GG-1 was in direct contact with the catenary! reggards Andy MIller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [Pass.] Fw: Eventide and Noctrune color scheme? From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 97 08:52:10 -0500 Content-Length: 1240 . . . > Were they relettered when Pennsy took ownership, with "Pennsylvania" >replacing "Pullman" on the letterboards, and the numbers added on the sides >towards both ends? > And, were the cars actually scrapped (or set aside for scrapping) when >they were withdrawn from lease, or did the Pennsy operate them for a while? > >Tom Madden > - ----- As I recall, all of the Pullmans becsame RR property and were leased back to Pullman as a result of the 1948 break-up of the Pullman monopoly. So the cars would have gottne the PENNSYLVANIA letterboard shortly after 1948, if ever. The PRR did not assign numbers to pullmans until som e time arou 1955. So E and N would only have had numbers on their sides for the last few months of their life, if ever. regars Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 05 Dec 97 08:53:50 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: New Keystone Is Out Content-Length: 11680 --====55544951534948545556===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Given the size and influence of the PRR, having a society with a single meeting location in the far-eastern part of the system doesn't seem like a good approach, even if Philly was the Company HQ. This type of situation leads to the 'chauvinism' toward certain areas of the railroad, specifically, those that the frequent meeting attendees are closest to. It seems the PRRT&HS could follow the NMRA model, with branches set up by divisions or regions, i.e. the Fort Wayne, the Panhandle, Pittsburgh, etc. and having regional society meetings in locations central to those divisions or regions. I suspect the 'guiding lights' of the organization would prefer to keep "control" centralized in the Philadelphia area, but members from the outer reaches of the railroad (or beyond) do not get to benefit from the fellowship aspect of the group meetings. Larry P. Morgan wrote: >Many of us would like to have the opportuninity to attend such meetings. >When they hold one close enough for me to drive, I will certainly try. >The furthest east would be Columbus Ohio. >What, inconvenient for founding members to head West? >Hmm. Do they really want my participation. >I know. It would be nice, but . . . >This is no slam. It is a recognition of fact. I live outside of the >envisioned active area of the Society, and do not have the finances to >just travel for such a meeting. > >Maybe it would be etter would be to hold the meetings & voting >electronically for those who cannot come in person. > >I joined the Society this year. >The KEYSTONE is my only tangible benefit. >It is certainly first rate. > >The Society will need to grow in new directions, or it will atrophy. >It has the potential to be one of the Web areas that just pulls people >in. Look at the quality of the KEYSTONE. It will require thinking >"outside the box" to make it happen. >-- >Larry Morgan >lpmorgan@iquest.net >Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) >TCA/TTOS > >BowerPRR wrote: >> >> Regarding Mr. Vondruska's comments about the new winter issue of the >> PRRT&HS >> "Keystone" magazine. I hope that he and others on this forum truly >> learn to >> appreciate the efforts and production of this publication. The staff >> of this >> historic society along with those of the other regional PRRT&HS >> chapters are >> unpaid volunteers. They bring their professional and intellectual >> talents to >> bear to bring all of us who are members GREAT and accurate historic >> documents >> that are first rate reference materials. I don't think it is in >> anyone's best >> interest to snipe or throw stones about their efforts. I understand >> the >> society has rebuffed several individuals who offered their digital >> expertise. >> Perhaps becoming a member, getting involved at meetings, having a say, >> casting >> a vote for officers may prove to be the most direct route to making >> changes. >> If that fails, then this forum could elevate itself to become the >> caliber of >> publication that would rival the "Keystone". That would require >> responsible >> unpaid volunteers! >> >> The Philadelphia Chapter PRRT&HS has its next meeting 12/6/97 at the >> Drexel >> Hill United Methodist Church in Philadelphia. Starts at 11:30 with a >> modelers >> forum: PRR Diesels model contest, followed by the regular meeting and >> presentations at 1 p.m. Get involved; plan to attend. >> >> Brad Bower >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------- >> Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", >> a >> cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html >> . >> ------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >> "listmaster@dsop.com". > >-- >Larry Morgan >lpmorgan@iquest.net >Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) >TCA/TTOS > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====55544951534948545556===1 Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 08:27:45 -0600 From: Bob Webber Subject: Re: New Keystone Is Out Content-Length: 2252 Regarding the Philly-centric view of the society: Several of the societies/clubs I belong to are centralized in Colorado. Some of the most active members are in the New Jersey/Northeast area. What they did is to "create" their own "division" to have informal get-togethers to keep the fires stoked. Some other societies have similar chauvenistic views. The SP society has a lot of members in the east Texas/Arkansas/Louisiana area that have felt left out because everyone looks at the coast lines as the "real" SP. The Santa Fe is a little different - they have several "core" areas - but there are some areas that feel left out as well - and remember, a trip from Chicago to Philly is a lot less miles than from, say Amarillo to LA or Chicago. Hell, the miles from Texarkana to El Paso is more than from Philly to Chicago - and that's all in the same state. I think if there are real foamers out there for the PRR in, say the Chicago area, that they should get together and have a mini-convention or a informal meeting at peoples houses. You are not going to get the "brass" in Philly to look at a Lines West convention or meeting until some organization is shown. Having said all that, my 2 cents worth regarding the Keystone: It is probably the best (or in the top 5) of railroad realted historical societies publications. The C&O society is pretty close. I don't recall anybody complaining about the Keystone. The complaint that started this whole thread related to the web site, the refusal of help for that site, the static nature of the site, and the recent calls for help for that site. Given the quality of the Keystone, there should be no reason not to have a first rate web site - especially given the talent for creating such in just this group of PRR fans. Bob Webber ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:59:03 -0500 (EST) From: Roger Kirkpatrick Subject: Re: New Keystone Is Out Content-Length: 1053 The problem of central power/meeting place is a sore point in the ACL/SAL Hist.Soc. which some call the Florida Folks Historical Club. Cheers, Roger _______ S. Roger Kirkpatrick ______|_____| [ ] |___________ 927 Colegate Drive | | | | Marietta, OH 45750 | | [ ] [ ] | | | | | | Fax - 614-376-4777 |__|______________________|__| Home - 614-374-6732 O<=>O O<=>O ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 05 Dec 97 11:37:52 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: Trainphone Content-Length: 8181 --====50555048485354545054===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Last night I went home and found the Trains article on this subject. I will be changing the writeup about TrainPhone I posted that Jerry put up on his site, as a few of the major details were wrong -- such is the hazard of writing from memory. The Trains article was written by one of the people from the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, so I believe it's accurate. According to the article, the large "handrail" antennae were used to *induce* the current into the lineside wires, or rails (wires carried the induced current farther). The small disc devices *received* the signals, and they were in pairs so one could receive the high band frequency, and one for the low band frequency. This general setup is the opposite of what I had stated. Block cabins and other lineside structures simply had their trainphone devices attached to the lineside wires or rails, and received the signal that way. The wires and rails were the "receiving and broadcasting antennae' for fixed structures, and so there was no need for a separate inducer/receivers as appeared on moveable equipment. The alerting speakers were separate from the TrainPhone handset box itself. TrainPhone was not used in the electrified zone, due to interference from the 25 cycle overhead current, and 'noise' from the locomotives' internal electrical equipment and traction motors. This was unfortunate, as the New York Zone had PRR's highest train density, and one assumes, could have used TrainPhone the most. I was also in error by implying this system was exclusively used by PRR. As Steven Bartlett and other people have already stated, Kansas City Southern had a substantial installation, and other roads such as B&LE had much more modest installations for specific purposes. Pennsy certainly was the largest user of Inductive Train Telephone technology in terms of applications to equipment and stations, and stuck with it long after railroad service band frequencies become available again after the war. It *did* have advantages over radio, particularly in the deep valleys, cuts and tunnels PRR often traveled through. My apologies for any confusion that may have arisen from my original post. asmiller wrote: >Drew McGheesaid (in part): >. > . > . >> >>This system (train phone) should have been able to work perfectly fine in the >electrified >>portions. The difference in frequency between the voice signal and AC >>overhead should have allowed the separation of the voice signal without >>undue hum. However, I can't remember ever seeing a photo of a GG I with >>train phone equipment. >> >>Drew R. McGhee >- ------- > >Would an antenna have been neceessary on a GG-1 if the signal had been induced >in the catenary. I GG-1 was in direct contact with the catenary! > > >reggards >Andy MIller > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====50555048485354545054===1 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 16:38:24 +0000 Subject: Re: Attn: N-Scalers From: locoshop@juno.com (Jeremy C Helms) Content-Length: 564 Hello all, Just a word on the N-scale Atlas PRR GP30 should be re released by Atlas later in their classics line of locos. Jeremy Helms ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: new PRR parts. Date: Fri, 05 Dec 97 12:44:20 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1270 HEre's some interesting new PRR detail parts coming out.... Looks like time to get some more GP9's.... Rob 331 - Hi-Tech Details Manu Item Description Scale Price Expected 331- 5011 B Unit Conversion Kit -- For Proto 2000 H $ 6.95 12/31/1997 GP-9 Locomotives UP/PRR 190 - Cal Scale Manu Item Description Scale Price Expected 190- 488 PRR RS Reciever Box -- Mounts On the H $ 2.50 12/31/1997 Short Hood 190- 489 Slack Adjuster -- PRR RS Locomotives H $ 2.50 12/31/1997 190- 490 Passenger Car Marker Lights -- PRR H $ 2.50 12/31/1997 190- 493 Tender Water Scoop Controls -- PRR H $ 2.50 12/31/1997 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Keystone on the net Date: Fri, 5 Dec 97 15:05:19 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 2166 On 12/5/97 3:29 PM, Robert A. Boyd (rboydrrs@inlink.com) wrote: >The worrysome thing is that the Keystones (which ARE truly outstanding) are >the work of one man. When he folds up, what then? I wasn't aware that any single person was doing The Keystone. How long has this been the case? Is this a volunteer thing, or is this a paid venture? I ask this as I definitely have the background to produce this magazine, in its present form. Although I am currently a "Systems Administrator", that's because I like tinkering with computers and networks. My current employer does pre-press work for the college textbook industry. I manage the hardware, software, and massive server array of 180 gigabytes of storage! Prior to that, I was "Director of Publications" for a college and personally produced the alumni magazine, annual reports, and hundreds of other documents annually. I got into the publishing industry after several years of selling desktop publishing equipment to firms that swore electronic publishing would never take off!!! Anyway, my allotment of volunteer hours is filled beyond capacity with my Web site. However, there's always time for paid ventures -- even at below market value -- as it offsets the cost of my Internet connection. As an added bonus, my experience would allow post-production of The Keystone directly to Acrobat PDF format for potential paid distribution via the Internet or CD-ROM. Food for thought....for when the current "single person" retires! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:28:19 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Re Trains to Florida Content-Length: 1301 So Rich Copeland adds: >>Its a shame the RF&P never electrified: we might have seen GG-1 in Broad >Street Station, Richmond! > >We may yet live to see catenary to Richmond. But I'm afraid the >ceremonial first train won't be hauled by a GG-1 ! ===== Well now, seeing that the GG-1 is, in many ways, the essence of US heavy electrification, and seeing that there are a goodly number of them in various museums (many of which are likely servicable or could be made so) a ceremonial first train hauled by a GG-1 as a salute to tradition is not all that unlikely! Bob Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" ____________________________________________ "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com "The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service" ____ooo___ooo__oo_0000_o_o__________________ ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:29:25 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Keystone on the net Content-Length: 1643 >Maybe it would be better would be to hold the meetings & voting >electronically for those who cannot come in person. > >I joined the Society this year. >The KEYSTONE is my only tangible benefit. >It is certainly first rate. > >The Society will need to grow in new directions, or it will atrophy. >It has the potential to be one of the Web areas that just pulls people >in. Look at the quality of the KEYSTONE. It will require thinking >"outside the box" to make it happen. ====== The worrysome thing is that the Keystones (which ARE truly outstanding) are the work of one man. When he folds up, what then? As to electronic access: this might happen in another decade, but right now not everyone has access to the net. There are a lot of folks back east who are "outside" of that territory. I really like the idea of a posted index of archives- I will pass that along to other SIGs I know! Bob Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" ____________________________________________ "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com "The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service" ____ooo___ooo__oo_0000_o_o__________________ ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 14:53:40 -0500 From: Charles Ring Subject: Re: Re Trains to Florida Content-Length: 1312 Robert A. Boyd wrote: > > So Rich Copeland adds: > > >>Its a shame the RF&P never electrified: we might have seen GG-1 in Broad > >Street Station, Richmond! > > > >We may yet live to see catenary to Richmond. But I'm afraid the > >ceremonial first train won't be hauled by a GG-1 ! > > ===== > > Well now, seeing that the GG-1 is, in many ways, the essence of US heavy > electrification, and seeing that there are a goodly number of them in > various museums (many of which are likely servicable or could be made so) a > ceremonial first train hauled by a GG-1 as a salute to tradition is not all > that unlikely! > Would any new catenary supply the 10KV at 25 cps the GG-1 needs? A while back on the Fidonet Railroad echo someone said there was a chance one GG-1 would be adapted to use modern 60 cps power. Does anyone here know if that plan is still viable? ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Keystone on the net (fwd) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 16:29:42 EST Content-Length: 693 > I wasn't aware that any single person was doing The Keystone. How long > has this been the case? Is this a volunteer thing, or is this a paid > venture? Volunteer. _Editing_ is a single person. (Chuck Blardone). _Articles_ are the work of many. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 17:51:03 EST Subject: Singed LINESWEST responds (was: re;new Keystone is out) Content-Length: 1621 To all: The flaming which has left the aroma of singed beard was deserved if I insulted those who work hard on getting the Keystone out. I can quibble detailsover page design but the content and intent is first rate. On the issue of getting involved, I have to agree with Larry Morgan. I am now beginning planning how to geet to the '98 meet. I'll tll you convincing my wifethat I should go 600 miles for three days to talk trains ain't going to be easy. I guess my frustration is that the PRRT&HS has been taking the name of the Pennsylvania Railroad too literally. In my western meeting thread last summer, all the meetings mentioned were in the Keystone State. The name may have been Pennsylvania but therailroad served 13 states, eight of which were served by PRR Lines West (Penn, Ohio, Mich., W.Va, Ky.,Ind, Ill., Mo. and Iowa (from 189-1927). Lines East Served only 6 Penn, N.J., N.Y., Del., Md., Va. Ohio was second only yo Pennsylvania in the amount of PRR right of way within its bordera and I'll arguethatIndiana in the 1940s, before the first wave of abandonments., was a clear thirds, again in solely track mileage. In a side conversation a comment ws ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: Re Trains to Florida Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:09:34 -0500 Content-Length: 2275 I love the GG1's but the fly in the ointment is who would want to deal with the hazmat of a 60 year old locomotive and also who would want to supply 11,000 volt- 25 Hertz electrical catenary? (Hazmat, I wonder what was in those GG1 transformers?) Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ---------- > From: Robert A. Boyd > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: Re Trains to Florida > Date: Friday, December 05, 1997 2:28 PM > > So Rich Copeland adds: > > >>Its a shame the RF&P never electrified: we might have seen GG-1 in Broad > >Street Station, Richmond! > > > >We may yet live to see catenary to Richmond. But I'm afraid the > >ceremonial first train won't be hauled by a GG-1 ! > > ===== > > Well now, seeing that the GG-1 is, in many ways, the essence of US heavy > electrification, and seeing that there are a goodly number of them in > various museums (many of which are likely servicable or could be made so) a > ceremonial first train hauled by a GG-1 as a salute to tradition is not all > that unlikely! > > Bob Boyd > Those Classic Trains > "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" > ____________________________________________ > > "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com > "The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service" > > ____ooo___ooo__oo_0000_o_o__________________ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:54:04 EST Subject: Re: Trainphone Content-Length: 907 In a message dated 97-12-05 13:34:38 EST, George.Pierson@trnty.edu writes: << By the early 1960s it was being phased out - I seem to recall that some GP 30's were delivered with trainphone. There's also an entertaining treatment of trainphone in that PRR b&w promo film from the 1940s which is widely available in video. >> All of the GP30's were delivered with trainphones. The last trainphones were installed in U25B's in late 1962 to early1963. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 19:33:31 EST Subject: Re: Singed LINESWEST responds (was: re;new Keystone is out) Content-Length: 1470 In a message dated 97-12-05 18:06:49 EST, LINESWEST@aol.com writes: << On the issue of getting involved, I have to agree with Larry Morgan. I am now beginning planning how to geet to the '98 meet. I'll tll you convincing my wifethat I should go 600 miles for three days to talk trains ain't going to be easy >> The 1998 convention is litteraly across the tracks from the Lancaster station. You just need to climb the fence on each side including 5 stands of barb wire. Don't drive take the train. If I recall properly the hotel has van service to the station. Alternatively, bring your wife along and rent a car for her. There are special tours for spouses also all the Lancaster outlet shops and the Amish country is near by. If you bring the little ones, you are only about 1 1/4 hour drive from Hershey Park and Chocolate Town USA. You get to 1) ride the train, 2) talk trains, 3) take them on vacation at the same time. Only drawback is the timing. Kids would need to miss a few days of school depending on age. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 00:38:02 +0000 Subject: FOR SALE: Pennsy items for sale(LONG) From: locoshop@juno.com (Jeremy C Helms) Content-Length: 5007 Hello all, I am going to be the first to attempt this sale thing. The following list is LONG. I am NOT a dealer, just a youngster (27) working on nailing down a modeling era that I like and fits my desires. I will post this once and only once. Feel free to email me at LocoShop@Juno.com. (Do not let the screen name fool you--I tried to start a custom diesel detailing business that failed.) I can take money order, check, or credit card (thanks to a great local hobby shop owner). Items go first come, first serve. No items on this list have over 5 hours of running time on them and most have none due to the fact that I have no layout to run them on. All details listed under the item are included in the deal. Thanks for putting up with this. Kato EMD NW2 PRR #3909 $30.00 Proto 2000 EMD GP9 #7221 $60.00 New in box w/ Cal Scale #408 Antenna Support System un installed Proto 2000 EMD GP9 #7206 $60.00 New in box w/ Cal Scale #408 Antenna Support System un installed Proto 2000 EMD GP9 #7206 $53.00 New in box Proto 2000 EMD SD7 #8588 $25.00 Assembled with little running time (under 5 hours) Proto 2000 EMD SW9 #8529 $25.00 Assembled with little running time (under 5 hours) Proto 2000 EMD SW9 #8521 $25.00 Assembled with little running time (under 5 hours) Proto 2000 EMD E8A #5797 $45.00 Assembled with no running time w/single stripe Proto 2000 EMD E8A #5713 $45.00 Assembled with no running time w/single stripe Proto 2000 ALCo FA2 #9620 $60.00 Assembled with little running time (under 5 hours) & includes un installed Cal Scale #461 Dynamic Brake and #459 Antenna Support Set Proto 2000 ALCo FA2 No# $40.00 Unit has less than 5 hours running time and is in the middle of being repainted & has installed a Cal Scale #461 Dynamic brake and #459 Antenna Support Set along with appropriate Detail Associates grab irons on the sid of the nose Proto 2000 ALCo FB2 No# $20.00 Unit is un powered with a Cal Scale #461 Dynamic Brake installed ready for paint and decals Proto 2000 EMD E7A #5863 $60.00 New in box w/ Cal Scale #412 Antenna Support System un installed Proto 2000 EMD E7A #5860 $60.00 New in box w/ Cal Scale #412 Antenna Support System un installed Proto 2000 EMD E7B #5856B $35.00 New in box Proto 2000 EMD E7B #5862B $35.00 New in box Stewart F3A Phase 4 PRR $90.00 Assembled in box no running time with Kadee conversion kit already installed and includes Detail Associates detail kit #701 for F units, Cal Scale #402 Antenna Support Set, and American Limited #9910 Operating Diaphragms un installed Stewart F3A Phase 4 PRR $90.00 Assembled in box no running time with Kadee conversion kit already installed and includes Detail Associates detail kit #701 for F units, Cal Scale #402 Antenna Support Set, and American Limited #9910 Operating Diaphragms un installed Stewart F3A Phase 2 PRR $90.00 Assembled in box no running time with Kadee conversion kit already installed and includes Detail Associates detail kit #701 for F units, Cal Scale #402 Antenna Support Set, and American Limited #9910 Operating Diaphragms un installed Bachmann GP30s PRR $35.00 Pair of Bachmann Spectrum GP30s that include un installed Cal Scale Antenna Set Rivarossi 1930's PRR Set A $60.00 This set includes Baggage, Coach, and Diner with the Vista Dome removed All have body mounted Kadee #5 couplers and are new, never run cars Rivarossi 1930's PRR Set B $80.00 This set includes R.P.O., Roomette, Duplex Sleeper, and Trail Car All have body mounted Kadee #5 couplers and are new, never run cars Bowser #54097 PRR H21A $108.00 This is a set of 12 car numbers that have been assembled with Kadee wheels and Kadee #5 couplers, only sold as set, never run (Circle Keystone) Red Caboose PRR X29 $65.00 These cars are in Circle Keystone and contains 6 different car numbers all assembled with Kadee wheels and couplers Bowser #477863 N-5c PRR $15.00 N-5c cabin car in Shadow Keystone for the Eastern region with Cal Scale brass caboose antenna, Kadee wheels, and couplers installed Bowser #477110 N-5 PRR $20.00 N-5 cabin car old style Pittsburgh Division with Cal Scale brass caboose antenna, Run 8 windows, Kadee wheels, and couplers installed Precision Scale Co. 16240-2 $125.00 N-8 Cabin Car with antenna installed, factory painted Jeremy Helms ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 00:44:40 +0000 Subject: Questions?? From: locoshop@juno.com (Jeremy C Helms) Content-Length: 1201 Good evening to all, I had a couple of questions I was wondering if anyone could answer. First I was wondering when the Pennsylvania Railroad changed their lettering on cars from the old way of spelling out Pennsylvania and went to the Circle Keystone emblem? Also when was the change from Circle Keystone to Shadow Keystone? When did PRR change their passenger locos from DGLE 5 stripe to Tuscan 5 stripe and then to single stripe with shadow keystone? Also a tag onto the string on the trainphone--when did PRR start to use this system by installing it on their locos? I seemed to have missed it on the string currently going on this topic and do not have access right now to the internet to get to Jerry's fine page. Thanks for any answers. Jeremy Helms ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:52:21 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: hazmats in the GG 1s Content-Length: 1931 >>I love the GG1's but the fly in the ointment is who would >>want to deal with the hazmat of a 60 year old locomotive >>and also who would want to supply 11,000 volt- 25 Hertz >>electrical catenary? > >(Hazmat, I wonder what was in those GG1 transformers?) > >Harry W. Fitch >hfitch@maranatha.net ===== I understand that the cooling oil in the main transformers had PCB in it: a preservative that is believed to cause cancer. As I recall, when the GG 1s were first retired, there was a big hassle over sending them to museums because the EPA wanted the transmissions removed and stored - oil and all - at a cost of some $5000 each. Evidently they solved that problem, seeing all the G motors that went to museums in the last few years. However, I wonder if they have transformers in them, or was the oil finally drained and legally disposed of? Would anyone with access to a GG 1 know what the story is? BTW: one wonders, had these environmental regs been around in 1950, how many old steamers would exist today with all that asbestos insulation? Still, it is necessary: its just a shame that some provision can't seem to be made for preserving contaminated antiques. Bob Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" ____________________________________________ "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com "The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service" ____ooo___ooo__oo_0000_o_o__________________ ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W.C. Knepper" Subject: Re: New Freedom Station-----Again! Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 22:24:50 -0500 Content-Length: 5129 Hello Bob, I have an advanced copy of the New Freedom Station kit.......It is beautiful.....The correct colors for the station varies with the time that you model the building. The kit models the station from 1890's to 1925-30 range. ( I have pictures of the station in the 1890's to 1925-30 time frame and 1940 to 1997) In the 1930-35 to present ...the station had horizontal German Wainscoting (fancy horizontal siding)the colors for board and batten siding - yellow okra (a natural pigment), the trim (around windows,doors,roof brace trim, etc.) - a chocolate brown (dark), the windows were a burgundy color. In the 30's the station was painted a light building buff, with chocolate trim, and burgundy windows. I have a picture (in Color) of the 1953 color scheme which was - siding - medium gray, trim - dark gary, windows - burgundy, and to end it all.......in 1979 a boy scout painted the station (Conrail blue with white trim) for his Eagle project.........Today it is falling down! The station is now starting ----RESTORATION ........Yes , it will come down to the ground and be rebuilt, using as much of the original material as possible...... The York County Rail / Trail Authority has signed the contract to do the work, starting December 3td, 1997. (IF YOU ARE IN NEW FREEDOM......STAY AWAY FROM THE STATION)......I'll get Jerry to put some of my pictures of the inside of the station if he wants to.....(Jerry you have my number) This is a project that I have been working towards sense 1979 when I moved into New Freedom. The AMB kit for the station, was brought about by some members of the "Northern Central Chapter of the PRRT&HS" we meet in York, Pa. 4 times a year.....( for info contact me on e-mail) Dutch Boy paints that are real close are : Bullion 2-Y-4 (WALLS), WOODRIDGE 1-O-5 (TRIM), PASSION 2-R-5 (WINDOWS) for the early years. Hope that this is of some intrest to some of you......................................................................... ........At least it's not downing some one, or the PRRT&HS...................If it weren't for the PRRT&HS you would probably be modeling the PB&R (Push,Bump & Ram) and thats really exciting !!!!!!!!!!! Bill Knepper Planning Committee New Freedom Station Project (I do believe the the Summit of the line at 851.3 feet above sea level) another SPF... ---------- > From: Bob Zoeller > To: PRR-Talk ; 'Jerry Britton' > Subject: RE: New Freedom Station > Date: Thursday, December 04, 1997 1:18 PM > > My post on the Milwaukee train show got lost in cyberspace,but I mentioned there was a sample of the kit there and it is beautiful, as are most of AMB's kits. In that lost message, I mentioned that it was painted in depot buff and asked if that was the true color, out of curiosity. I have standardized on "light building color" for a family appearance. I am also reasking if anyone on the list knows if PRR standardized on building paint schemes by division or region. > > Bob Zoeller > > ---------- > From: Jerry Britton > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 1997 9:23 AM > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: New Freedom Station > > Don't know how I missed it twice, but third time through the new Model > Railroader I found an American Model Builder's ad in a lower left corner. > (Forget the page number and don't have it with me; check the ad index.) > > Anyway, there's a photo of the new New Freedom Station model. This > station was typical of many built at the time. > > --------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > Progressive Information Technologies > britton@pit-magnus.com > http://www.pit-magnus.com > 1 JPEG = 1K words > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W.C. Knepper" Subject: Re: New Freedom Station Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 22:43:31 -0500 Content-Length: 2320 Hi Rob, The kit is out......mine is an advance copy and it is great..........After this kit has had some time for AMB to make some money off of it, I'll get hold of them again and see if they would like to do a Northern Central tower ???? I have a copy of the plans for the one that stood in New Freedom, Pa. It had a square base and a hexagon top......building colors changed during the years........ Bill Knepper ---------- > From: Rob Schoenberg > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: New Freedom Station > Date: Wednesday, December 03, 1997 12:30 PM > > > Local shop didn't have the station yet but they did have the American Model Builders > PRR standard tool house kit. It's a nice kit. A bit later than the Kitbits version. > This one is a bit more "functional" looking, no fancy gingerbread. Just started building it. > > Does anyone have a paint mix for the PRR's light & dark building colors (cream/brown)? > > Rob > > > >Don't know how I missed it twice, but third time through the new Model > >Railroader I found an American Model Builder's ad in a lower left corner. > >(Forget the page number and don't have it with me; check the ad index.) > > > >Anyway, there's a photo of the new New Freedom Station model. This > >station was typical of many built at the time. > > > >--------------------------------------------- > >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:49:47 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Lines West activities? Content-Length: 2376 And Bob Weber writes: >Regarding the Philly-centric view of the society: > >Several of the societies/clubs I belong to are centralized in Colorado. >Some of the most active members are in the New Jersey/Northeast area. What >they did is to "create" their own "division" to have informal get-togethers >to keep the fires stoked. > >Some other societies have similar chauvenistic views. > >I think if there are real foamers out there for the PRR in, say the Chicago >area, that they should get together and have a mini-convention or a >informal meeting at peoples houses. You are not going to get the "brass" >in Philly to look at a Lines West convention or meeting until some >organization is shown. ====== The more I dig into the PRR phenom (and I must admit I was a typical "GG-1 SPF" when I joined the list) the more I am learning how much the Lines West has to offer. I am concerned that any sort of "Lines West" interest should not cause a split in the PRR community (a "Lines West SIG?") but if some sort of western regional thing can be put together and work to support the common cause, it would be a good thing. It would be essential that the "Lines West" make it plain that they are not a separatist movement (and that charge will be made by the Grand Dragons of the Old Guard), but within a loyalist context, there is no reason why all these nice things can't be done. It may well be that, if "Lines West" can start doing some dynamic things with web sites, regional meets and indexing the archives, it may goad the "Lines East" into being more active. A thought: why not call it "The P Company"? Bob Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" ____________________________________________ "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com "The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service" ____ooo___ooo__oo_0000_o_o__________________ ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 16:55:42 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: GG-1s,P.R.R.T&HS, PB&R Content-Length: 1633 Hello folks... Hmmm...as for the GG-1....maybe someone or corporation could adapt a sort of HEP car so the G could run...step down the voltage on a special car.? It would be nice if we had more local chapters for the P.R.R.t&hs...I belong to the Northern Central chapter.Now most of the folks in it are in Pa. But i live in southern Virginia...not really Pennsy country here... well there is whats left of the old N.Y.P&N down here...the old Pennsy orphan beach head in Norfolk ... I am from Baltimore and grew up next to the N.C.(really!)my dad used to rent the old freight station in Cockesville. Anyway it would help us lone P. men(and ladies) if there were some local group...I know there are P.R.R. modelers here some where. I saw Harry's (PB&R) Push,Bump&Ram thing...LOL The Pennsy used to(and conrail still does)had/have a connection to a little railroad called the Patapsco&Back River(s)(neck)(not sure about the spelling)It ran toward the Beth steel plant in Dundalk Md..from off of a spur near the Bayview yard in Baltimore.... There is a Prototype for everything...! LOL H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 19:23:24 EST Subject: Once-Singed LINESWEST responds once again Content-Length: 4925 Everything you're saying aboutt the convention soiund good but you're forgetting one thiing. Geography. According to the mileposts on I-70, Ohio is 221 miles wide. The I-70 entrance tramps nearest to Yellow Springs is at milepolst 51 (U.S. 68).My corner of Panhandleland is10 miles south of Springfield, Ohio, 10 miles north of Xenia, 20 miles east of Dayton and 50 miles west of Columbus. Its a four- five hour drive to Pittsburgh from here. I've been through Penn. several. It's like driving through Kansas. The statte seems to never end. Its three days of talking trains sandwiched between up to 8-hour drives, a task I may not be physically up to. I haven't the occasion to try since I was diagnosed with early Parkinson's in March 1996. My point is that the PRRT&HS needs to broaden its base. It needs to open itself to the vast number of modelers. It needs to realize that from the 1840s to 1960, the Pennsylvania Railraod Co. and its subsidiaries was the largest private employer and taxpayer in places like Xenia/Greene County, Ohio; Logansport/Cass Co., Ind.; Crestline/Wyandot Co., Ohio. I find it amazing that the majority of PRR modelers I talk to have only the faintest notion that the N6b was the most numerous class of cabin car in the late 1950s. Most of these modelers believe that the PRRT&HS is devoted to the PRR back east despite my protestations otherwidse. People back east seem to forget that places like Richmond, Ind., or Lima, Ohio, or Fort Wayne, Ind., had as many as 10 name trains stopping at their stations every day. One of the biggest mistakes of any volunteer organization is the failure to agressively recruit new members. Recruitment is one of the most important tasks for any organization counting on some other than wages or monetary reward to energize its membership. Often the old guard constantly complains that they are being taken forgranted, that no one else wants to the nasty work. What many don't realize is that they have rebuffed, or worse, ignored new people interestedn in getting involved. Busy people, such as Jerry Britton or Mark Bej, will mkeep an offer open only so long before moving on, angry that their generous offer was ignored. I haven't offered because I've seen very little indication that the PRR leadership is interested in working with anyone outside of Pennsylvania. It's easy to say that the PRRT&HS won't be interested in activities outside of Pennsylvania. I am forced to respond, what indication has the Society leadership given that it is interested in cultivating an active PRR membership in, lets says, the the seven states served by Lines West west of the PA-OH/PA-WVa stateline. I live out here. I know a number of Pennsylvania modelers. Mnay of them have been a member at one time or another but dropped out because the society wasn't addressing their needs--as a modeler or as a fan on PRR Lines West. If it is true that The Keystone primarily the labor of one person, the Society is risking much by placing its eggs in one basket. If for any number of reasons that single person is unable to continue contributing at the level current members are used to, any slippage in quality could have a disasterous effect on membershiip. KC'ers like Jerry and Myself and a number of others have profession experience in journalism, public relations, publishing and related fields. In this age of comupters and high speed modems, it doesn't really matter where any of live live as long as we keep the Phone Co. happy. I'm currently helping a fellow in Kent, Ohio, about 220 miles NE of Yellow Springs, on his Ohio Existing Railraod Depots website (fotos of anumber of PRR depots in SW Ohio are to be posted on the site shortly at: w3.gwis.com/~west/exist.htm). Okay, its time to stop talking and start acting. A whilke back Larry Morgan and I engaged in a thread about The Hill at Madison, Ind. As a result of that thread, Larry and I are planning to visit Madison, Ind., Tuesday Dec.30 to walk The Hill between M Subject: Re: Lines West activities? Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 19:45:03 -0500 Content-Length: 4016 Amen brother....... Lets quit complaining about lines east / lines west.....It's all PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD, isn't it? And who cares where the seat of power is anyway ? There are ATSF chapters on the east coast, why can't there be chapters of the PRRT&HS were ever you want to have one ? And if your feelings got hurt because you didn't get picked for a job that you wanted........well you must not have went about it the right way.......quit complaining and make a stand to improve the PRRT&HS. The best publication for a Historical Society around.........and you all agree.......So how can you add to that and make it better ? Don't try and tear down the best group that I've ever known.........So you want a convention in your area........GREAT>>>>GET ORGANIZED and have it.......I'll come. Just quit trying to derail a good thing. Bill Knepper ....for the real PRR fans, (ticked off) at the rest. ---------- > From: Robert A. Boyd > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Lines West activities? > Date: Friday, December 05, 1997 10:49 PM > > And Bob Weber writes: > > >Regarding the Philly-centric view of the society: > > > >Several of the societies/clubs I belong to are centralized in Colorado. > >Some of the most active members are in the New Jersey/Northeast area. What > >they did is to "create" their own "division" to have informal get-togethers > >to keep the fires stoked. > > > >Some other societies have similar chauvenistic views. > > > >I think if there are real foamers out there for the PRR in, say the Chicago > >area, that they should get together and have a mini-convention or a > >informal meeting at peoples houses. You are not going to get the "brass" > >in Philly to look at a Lines West convention or meeting until some > >organization is shown. > > ====== > > The more I dig into the PRR phenom (and I must admit I was a typical "GG-1 > SPF" when I joined the list) the more I am learning how much the Lines West > has to offer. > > I am concerned that any sort of "Lines West" interest should not cause a > split in the PRR community (a "Lines West SIG?") but if some sort of > western regional thing can be put together and work to support the common > cause, it would be a good thing. > > It would be essential that the "Lines West" make it plain that they are not > a separatist movement (and that charge will be made by the Grand Dragons of > the Old Guard), but within a loyalist context, there is no reason why all > these nice things can't be done. > > It may well be that, if "Lines West" can start doing some dynamic things > with web sites, regional meets and indexing the archives, it may goad the > "Lines East" into being more active. > > A thought: why not call it "The P Company"? > > Bob Boyd > Those Classic Trains > "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" > ____________________________________________ > > "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com > "The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service" > > ____ooo___ooo__oo_0000_o_o__________________ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: hazmats in the GG 1s Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 19:56:56 -0500 Content-Length: 3693 The real shame about the asbestos thing is that unless you make it freyable it is not any danger whatsoever. You must be able to breath it in to have it stick in your lung tissue. The public thinks that it has some sort of magic action like radioactive isotopes and is going to GET YOU if you stand too close to it. Removal is a sticky issue and one that has caused pains in preservation efforts I'm sure. The alternative of placing fiberglass wool insulation under the jacketing may one day backfire because the States and Feds want their two cents with that now too. The WM steam locomotive that has been preserved in steamable condition in Hagerstown MD was fitted this way and with aluminum jacketing. The aluminum will not rust, but I wonder about the interaction with other metals and chemicals. BTW, I new when I posted that note about the GG1's "hazmat" that they had PCB's in the transformers. I wanted to know what they did with it without causing people to overreact. Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ---------- > From: Robert A. Boyd > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: hazmats in the GG 1s > Date: Friday, December 05, 1997 7:52 PM > > >>I love the GG1's but the fly in the ointment is who would > >>want to deal with the hazmat of a 60 year old locomotive > >>and also who would want to supply 11,000 volt- 25 Hertz > >>electrical catenary? > > > >(Hazmat, I wonder what was in those GG1 transformers?) > > > >Harry W. Fitch > >hfitch@maranatha.net > > ===== > > I understand that the cooling oil in the main transformers had PCB in it: a > preservative that is believed to cause cancer. As I recall, when the GG > 1s were first retired, there was a big hassle over sending them to museums > because the EPA wanted the transmissions removed and stored - oil and all - > at a cost of some $5000 each. > > Evidently they solved that problem, seeing all the G motors that went to > museums in the last few years. However, I wonder if they have > transformers in them, or was the oil finally drained and legally disposed > of? > > Would anyone with access to a GG 1 know what the story is? > > BTW: one wonders, had these environmental regs been around in 1950, how > many old steamers would exist today with all that asbestos insulation? > Still, it is necessary: its just a shame that some provision can't seem to > be made for preserving contaminated antiques. > > > Bob Boyd > Those Classic Trains > "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" > ____________________________________________ > > "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com > "The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service" > > ____ooo___ooo__oo_0000_o_o__________________ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 22:08:50 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: PRRT&HS Convention (Was many things Content-Length: 1741 SUVCW ORR wrote: > The 1998 convention is litteraly across the tracks from the Lancaster > station. > You just need to climb the fence on each side including 5 stands of > barb wire. > Don't drive take the train. If I recall properly the hotel has van > service to > the station. Alternatively, bring your wife along and rent a car for > her. > There are special tours for spouses also all the Lancaster outlet > shops and > the Amish country is near by. If you bring the little ones, you are > only > about 1 1/4 hour drive from Hershey Park and Chocolate Town USA. You > get to > 1) ride the train, 2) talk trains, 3) take them on vacation at the > same time. > Only drawback is the timing. Kids would need to miss a few days of > school > depending on age. Why not repost your excellent message with dates and related items. The PRRTHS might even gain some new members. Personally, I have afraid I have overlooked such information or never received it. I have been looking for an excuse to go back to Strasburg, I mean Lancaster county Sadly. rail service from Indianapolis is down to almost nothing. The last I heard there was a weekly train to Chicago and nothing else. I will check. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 23:30:12 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: hazmats in the GG 1s Content-Length: 5383 Harry W. Fitch IV wrote: > BTW, I new when I posted that note about the GG1's "hazmat" that they had > PCB's > in the transformers. I wanted to know what they did with it without > causing people > to overreact. > Robert A. Boyd wrote: > > > > I understand that the cooling oil in the main transformers had PCB in it: > a > > preservative that is believed to cause cancer. As I recall, when the GG > > 1s were first retired, there was a big hassle over sending them to > museums > > because the EPA wanted the transmissions removed and stored - oil and all > - > > at a cost of some $5000 each. > > > > Evidently they solved that problem, seeing all the G motors that went to > > museums in the last few years. However, I wonder if they have > > transformers in them, or was the oil finally drained and legally disposed > > of? > > > > Would anyone with access to a GG 1 know what the story is? Please allow me to add the following concerning PCB liquids: A disclaimer first, I have not been directly involved with the refurbishing of PCB transformers for twelve years and am not familiar with any regulations more recent than 1985. Transformer liquids serve two purposes: cooling and electrical insulation. Transformer "oil," known generically as "10C Oil," is flammable and a true petroleum base oil. Because of the fire hazard, oil transformer locations are more restricted than for non-flammable liquids. PCB Transformer liquids, known generically as "askarels," include the trade names Pyranol (GE), and Inerteen (Westinghouse.) During the past 20 years silicone based non-flammable liquids have become available, as have various inert gas mixtures. Most power company transformers, including pole top utility transformers, are/were 10C filled. They were often found to be PCB contaminated; the general belief is that for safety during manufacturing testing they were filled with PCB liquid, then drained and refilled with 10C oil for their regular use. Unfortunately they retained their PCB contamination. Some twenty (?) years ago, transformers were required to be classed and labelled as "PCB transformers," PCB-contaminated transformers," or "Non-PCB transformers," depending on the percentage of PCB liquid present in the unit. It was possible and legal to drain a PCB transformer or a PCB-contaminated transformer, flush it with kerosene, as I remember, until it's residual PCB level was reduced to an approved percentage, refill it with 10C or one of the other fluids, and legally class it at a lower PCB level. This work was performed by licensed contractors. Bob Boyd's $5000 figure sounds about right. It is/was also possible to dispose of PCB transformers by draining them, incinerating the liquid, and burying the transformer and enclosure in an approved landfill. Most transformers were not permitted to be untanked for repairs; however, railroad locomotive transformers could be removed from their tanks when required. A feature of locomotive transformers not generally found in other applications was that their cooling systems had external plumbing for pumps and cooling coils. This, plus their moving, vibrating, flexing environment, made them much more prone to leakage than the usual one-piece, welded utility or industrial transformer. A locomotive might actually be found to have a general level of PCB contamination anywhere in the carbody, not just in the transformer. There were several concerns regarding refilling of any transformers, one being that over time residual PCB material might leach out from the transformer structure into the new liquid, raising the levels again to unacceptable values, and, second, that new government regulations might lower the aceptable limits and render previous work and expense useless. The hazard from PCB liquids is not so much carcinogenic as environmental unless the liquid is exposed to fire as in a transformer failure (it is not considered flammable but can be burned by the application of high enough temperatures. PCB smoke is generally considered to be highly carcinogenic. General consensus in 1985 was that people with long periods of exposure (skin contact) were not found to have any particular health problems from such contact). It is, however, a serious problem in the food chain, causing birth defects in animals, and, presumably, humans. For example, birds experience fragile egg shells that do not survive the incubation period. This may have been more than you wanted to know about penguins, to paraphrase an old joke, but might offer some background on the handling of transformers, although I am not able to give specific answers concerning the preservation of old G-motors. And as I said at the start, I am not familiar with any changes to PCB-handling rules which may have occurred during the past twelve years. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 00:13:23 EST Subject: Re: Questions?? Content-Length: 1157 In a message dated 97-12-06 22:00:23 EST, Jeremy C Helms writes: << I had a couple of questions I was wondering if anyone could answer. First I was wondering when the Pennsylvania Railroad changed their lettering on cars from the old way of spelling out Pennsylvania and went to the Circle Keystone emblem? >> According to Al Westerfield's instructions for his G22 gondola [and verified elsewhere], this change occurred in 1930. <> The first freight car lettering arrangement using the shadow keystone was dated April 4, 1954. Reporting marks were added in 1957. I'll leave the passenger questions to those more knowledgeable. John Keel ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 01:32:33 EST Subject: PRR T&HS and the internet Content-Length: 2413 Jerry I was at the Phila. Chapter meeting today and thought you might want to hear some of my observations. I've been a member of both the National and Phila. Region for about 17-18 years and from what I've seen the largest group of members here are in the 55-75 year range. Most of these people probably don't have or even use a computer let alone be interested in the internet. The PRR web page was mentioned at the meeting and a handout of all known PRR pages was available. Your's was listed along with others. I am 49 and am interested in information for my modeling. We have been trying for years to get some more modeling action in the chapter but have been rebuffed by the people in power for quite some time. The National is a "HISTORICAL SOCIETY" and we have been told that numerious times in spite of many requests from modelers for info. . A lot of us younger?? members are afraid that sooner or later the old guard will die off and with all the things available to kids today interest in a long gone railroad will be far from their minds and eventually the society will begin to fade away. A couple of us even gave the idea of a seperate PRR Modelers society but the loss of all the info the historical group has would be a tough issue. Evidentily the Santa Fe group had this problem years ago split up and then rejoined forces a couple of years ago as either group had trouble standing on it's own feet. I think you're page as it is fills an important position with people who are computer literate and have PRR interest. Maybe time will change the PRR historical groups feelings towards the computer age but time will also clear out all the old timers as well so all we can do is try to fill their shoes with new blood so all the info that has been collected over all these years can get to the people that need it. Sorry to be so long but the meeting today just got me thinking about this. Thanks for all your work it is appreciated. Ken McCorry ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 10:45:00 EST Subject: Re: PRRT&HS Convention (Was many things Content-Length: 617 The convention is the last weekend in April at the Days Inn, Lancaster, PA. I do not have the other details yet. As I did last year, I will post them to PRR-Talk when they arrive. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 12:15:08 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Lines West/modeling activities Content-Length: 4192 Hello all, Following this thread on Lines West and modeling, I can see that there is a lot of dissatisfaction out there in SPFdom, and I want to offer a few thoughts for whatever they are worth. * any hobby organization will have a small percentage who do all the work, who have always done all the work, and who will always be doing all the work. Part of why they are the Old Guard is that no one else wanted the job back in The Good Old Days. So if they get a little territorial, this is understandable, in view of the sweat equity they have in. * if the Old Guard is unresponsive to change, this is partly due to feeling that they paid their dues and don't want to hear from any Johnny-come-lately who has only been in the group 10 years or so; partly from the general cantankerousness of years (I am 48, and find myself rather disinclined to anything new as a knee jerk thing) and partly from a chronic low level burnout. * the one thing that all of us absolutely and unconditionally do NOT want is for any sort of organizational split between Lines East/West or Historical/Modeling. However, setting up any sort of subSIG within the PRR will inevitably be looked upon as secession unless you make it abundantly clear that you are sticking to the old homestead. Having said all that, I think the avenue is clearly marked out for a possible course of action. I think the need and interest is there for a Lines West and a Modeling activity as well as for a web presence. All of these things seem to be forming slowly, with the growing western interest and the web sites of Jerry, Mark and others. I recommend that any such be carefully distinguished as an "Activity": I suspect that even calling it a "Chapter" of the PRRHTS might evoke dark grumblings. A Lines West "Activity" group, a Modeling "Activity" group (east and west) and perhaps a PRR web ring would be workable and would attract new people. These activitys should be clearly labeled as part of the PRRHTS: if there is a western Chapter, you should support it; if not, a "region" might be in order. In any event, the "Lines East" home guard should be allowed to lead to whatever degree they can/will. Local initiative is not impossible, but any such initiative should be handled with great diplomacy. Perhaps we should go a year or two before trying to hold any sort of "Lines West" convention, and the early efforts there might be in the form of a series of chapter meets. As to a publication: this will be treading on toes big time! Admittedly, not all SPFs are on the web, but perhaps a jointly run web magizine (run as an E-mail download at first) could fill a gap. Chuck Blairdone is doing a magnificant job on the Keystone, but the man is mortal. When he goes, what happens to the Keystone and the PRRHTS? Does the home office do anything to speak of other than the Keystone that would draw new public interest? (the archives are a magnificant effort, but that is something of an inward thing) Getting a webzine up now will allow it to be built up and integrated into the PRRHTS before Chuck leaves the scene so that it can pick up the reigns at an appropriate future time. I might add that this is likely the way that SIG zines will go in the future. (My own "The Limited" might be considered a passenger "webzine") Any thoughts here Jerry? Mark? Anyway: that's my 3 cent stamp for today. Bob Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" ____________________________________________ "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com "The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service" ____ooo___ooo__oo_0000_o_o__________________ ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 7 Dec 97 13:33:18 EST From: Subject: PRR newspaper supplement Content-Length: 1619 Greetings everyone, For your information the local newspaper in Sunbury, PA put out a special edition to their newspaper on 25 November. Its a 32 page supplement entitled, "History in the making - -Trains". 75-80% of it deals with the PRR and it is almost all steam oriented (there are 1or 2 E-8s, an F-7 and a doodlebug or two). The other roads mentioned are Reading, Lackawanna and DL&W. There's about 70 photos and about 10 articles in the supplement and highlights Harrisburg, Wilkes-Barre, Lancaster, Northumberland and many other areas. There is also a story about an N-4 bobber cabin car that had been stored indoors in the Alleghany County warehouse for 46 years and is now being restored. It was built in 1892 and based upon the photo, looks to be in pristine condition before restoration. Also there's an article on an N-8 that is restored and currently in use on the Northumberland based, North Shore Railroad. Although it contains a lot of advertising it makes a nice, free, collectible. Try calling the paper at 717-286-5755 to try and get a copy if you're interested. Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, best to you and yours Kris Kollar ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR T&HS and the internet Date: Sun, 7 Dec 97 17:08:03 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1771 On 12/7/97 2:32 AM, KEMACPRR (KEMACPRR@aol.com) wrote: >Thanks for all your work it is appreciated. Thanks, and you're welcome. Don't push the "old timers" out the door too quick, though. In their heads they have all the information that we need to get into my site (and others) so that we have it recorded somewhere. My only enemy is time. As for modeling, Tom V. hit me with this same topic last week. I will be pushing to make my site more modeler friendly. When you go in through "Passenger Ops" and go to the rosters, each class lists available models. Same with diesels under "Motive Ops". The same will eventually be true (in years) for electrics, steam, freight, and non-revenue equipment. What I have done in the near term, however, is made more links to these from my "Modeling" page so that a modeler can cut to the chase. I've also entered some other new material in this area. Take a look (http://prr.dsop.com/model); let me know if I am headed in the right direction. My underlying reason for doing "Keystone Crossings" is as an extension of my modeling...and to make it accurate. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 16:30:32 EST Subject: Re: New Keystone Is Out Content-Length: 1323 In a message dated 97-12-06 09:17:13 EST, rswebber@concentric.net writes: >I think if there are real foamers out there for the PRR in, say the Chicago >area, that they should get together and have a mini-convention or a >informal meeting at peoples houses. Last time we had this thread, I asked a question which I'll repeat: When I first joined PRRT&HS (1985), there were chapters in Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Detroit, and Chicago. What happened to them? Why not try to join one (resurrecting it if necessary)? I realize that, unless you live in or near one of these cities, attendance at a chapter meeting could mean a full weekend away-from-home trip. But I would very much like to see active chapters, even if they have only a handful of members, on Lines West. The 800-member Philadelphia Chapter started out as a handful of guys meeting in somebody's house. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 17:34:01 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Not the future, but now Content-Length: 1738 Greetings, We live in an age where communications, at least for those who avail themselves, can participate in things which were not possible a few years ago. I lived in Pittsburgh Pa two different times and never heard of the PRRHTS. Why are they keeping their light under a basket? Maybe they prefer having only members who are local. I can appreciate that. All cannot attend and participate in the friendly warm personal meetings. However many of us are interested in the PRR. There is a world of information out there that all could make use of, if there was a means of communications. Well we have that means now and it is the internet!!! Those groups which refuse to assimilate themselves into the internet will find themselves in the same position as those who didn't buy TV's. E-mail is the wave of the now. Refusal to join only places one in the past. As much as I hate the word "compromise" maybe that's what we need. The continued publication of the PRRHTS is needed. A new method exists for those who can access the Net. Why not combine the best of both and get on with it. My 4 cents worth.............Off the soap box for now....... In case my computer dies or the ISP fails---Merry Christmas to All! Sincerely, S.A. McCALL hosam ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: Not the future, but now Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:52:41 -0500 Content-Length: 881 Television will never catch on! It's a fad. Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ---------- > From: s.a. mccall > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Not the future, but now > Date: Sunday, December 07, 1997 5:34 PM > > > Greetings, > > We live in an age where communications, at least for those who avail > themselves, can participate in things which were not possible a few years > ago. > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 19:28:17 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: New Keystone Is Out Content-Length: 1391 On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, PRRMAN wrote: > In a message dated 97-12-06 09:17:13 EST, rswebber@concentric.net writes: > > >I think if there are real foamers out there for the PRR in, say the Chicago > >area, that they should get together and have a mini-convention or a > >informal meeting at peoples houses. > > Last time we had this thread, I asked a question which I'll repeat: > When I first joined PRRT&HS (1985), there were chapters in > Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Detroit, and Chicago. What happened > to them? Why not try to join one (resurrecting it if necessary)? > I realize that, unless you live in or near one of these cities, attendance > at a chapter meeting could mean a full weekend away-from-home > trip. But I would very much like to see active chapters, even if > they have only a handful of members, on Lines West. Pittsburgh Chapter is still active, though I have not yet joined; I believe they meet monthly in Monroeville. -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 18:56:40 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: enduring faith Content-Length: 954 >Television will never catch on! It's a fad. > > > Harry W. Fitch >hfitch@maranatha.net ====== Yeah! Just like with these Ketterlings Trolleys. Coal is Eternal; we all can rest comfortably on that bedrock truth! Bob Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" ____________________________________________ "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com "The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service" ____ooo___ooo__oo_0000_o_o__________________ ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W.C. Knepper" Subject: Re: GG-1s,P.R.R.T&HS, PB&R Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:12:14 -0500 Content-Length: 2653 PB&R Recap....... The name is the " Patpsco & Back Rivers Railroad"...........copied right off of a hat that I got from them ! The railroad ran only on the Bethlem Steel plant property. There is a joint use yard, but it's on the Beth steel property. They are still running, all though not very big. ( just thought you would like to know) Bill Knepper ( boxcar46@nfdc.net) ---------- > From: bubbles@visi.net > To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com > Subject: GG-1s,P.R.R.T&HS, PB&R > Date: Saturday, December 06, 1997 4:55 PM > > > Hello folks... > > Hmmm...as for the GG-1....maybe someone or corporation could adapt a sort of > HEP car so the G could run...step down the voltage on a special car.? > > It would be nice if we had more local chapters for the P.R.R.t&hs...I belong > to the Northern Central chapter.Now most of the folks in it are in Pa. > But i live in southern Virginia...not really Pennsy country here... > well there is whats left of the old N.Y.P&N down here...the old > Pennsy orphan beach head in Norfolk ... > I am from Baltimore and grew up next to the N.C.(really!)my dad used to rent > the old freight station in Cockesville. > Anyway it would help us lone P. men(and ladies) if there were some local > group...I know there are P.R.R. modelers here some where. > > I saw Harry's (PB&R) Push,Bump&Ram thing...LOL > The Pennsy used to(and conrail still does)had/have a connection to a little > railroad called the Patapsco&Back River(s)(neck)(not sure about the > spelling)It ran toward the Beth steel plant in Dundalk Md..from off of a spur > near the Bayview yard in Baltimore.... > There is a Prototype for everything...! LOL > > H.Mummert > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:15:10 EST Subject: Re: Re Trains to Florida Content-Length: 742 In a message dated 97-12-07 15:22:43 EST, charlesr@infonline.net writes: > a >chance one GG-1 would be adapted to use modern 60 cps power. Does anyone >here know if that plan is still viable? This is the first I've heard of it. I cannot imagine Amtrak, in its present condition, paying for it. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: Re Trains to Florida Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 22:09:28 -0500 Content-Length: 1613 The Aem7 Swedish Meatball's were purchased I believe, as were the E60 GE's to be able to take the conversion in the catenary supply. Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 -----Original Message----- From: PRRMAN To: charlesr@infonline.net ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Sunday, December 07, 1997 9:31 PM Subject: Re: Re Trains to Florida >In a message dated 97-12-07 15:22:43 EST, charlesr@infonline.net writes: > >> a >>chance one GG-1 would be adapted to use modern 60 cps power. Does anyone >>here know if that plan is still viable? > >This is the first I've heard of it. I cannot imagine Amtrak, in its >present condition, paying for it. > >Rich Copeland > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out (fwd) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 22:28:06 -0500 Content-Length: 56956 So much PRR information; so little time! The national PRRT&HS officers, board members and "Keystone" editorial staff are to be commended for the job they are doing. Believe me, they are doing the best they can. Time is the enemy. It is very difficult to pursue pet projects while working. It is even more difficult after retiring. I am now a consultant and don't have time to read my E-mail. My hat is off to Jerry Britton, Mark Bej and others who are able to provide us with PRR information on the internet. Thank you! Keep up the good work! The following is MY opinion on the archives at Lewistown Station and is NOT the official position of the PRRT&HS. Some steps have been taken to make the information available. Owing to the large volume of material at the Lewistown Station, and its condition, it will be some time before members and the public are able to access anything in a reasonable manner. The material was not only dirty and bad smelling, it was disorganized. I know, because I had some of the drawings and maps from the Pittsburgh Union Station in my garage until we were able to find more suitable storage. We had to remove it from the station within a limited time frame because it was slated for destruction. Carl P. Izzo, President Pittsburgh Chapter, PRRT&HS ---------- > Farom: PRR-Talk > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: PRR-Talk Digest - 12/05/97 > Date: Friday, December 05, 1997 12:10 AM > > PRR-Talk Digest - Friday, December 5, 1997 > > Trainphone > by > RE: P54 cars on other roads > by Andrew S. Miller > RE: PRR power in Wash DC > by Harmantas, Andrew G. > Re: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out > by Donald E. Harper, Jr. > Re: Answers and Questions... > by SUVCW ORR > Re: Trainphone > by Jerry Britton > Trainphone > by George Pierson > Trainphone -Reply > by > RE: Trainphone (LONG!!!) > by Doug Drew > Re: PRR electrification at DC; Was Florida train power at Wash DC > by Robert Johnston > Re: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out (fwd) > by Mark D Bej > Re: Trainphone (fwd) > by Mark D Bej > Trainphone FAQ > by Jerry > Re: Trainphone > by Drew McGhee > Re: Trainphone -Reply > by Stephen Bartlett > RE: K-5, now P70's > by Bob Zoeller > RE: MP-54's Again > by Bob Zoeller > RE: New Freedom Station > by Bob Zoeller > Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 12/02/97 > by Rob Schoenberg > George Pierson's Tuscarora Valley RR > by Jerry > Re: Trainphone > by Chris Brandt > Re: more on the Florida trains > by Hal6963 > RE: New Freedom Station > by Bob Zoeller > Re: Trainphone > by Stephen Bartlett > Re: Re Trains to Florida > by PRRMAN > Re: PRR in Wash area > by PRRMAN > Re: New "Keystone" Is Out > by Larry P. Morgan > Attn: N-Scalers > by GLD 828 > Re: Trainphone (LONG!!!) > by KEMACPRR > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Trainphone > From: > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 97 7:28:13 EST > > Greetings everyone, > > I hope this subject hasn't been discussed recently since I don't like > boring all of you with redundant questions. > > Can anyone explain a little about the PRR's Trainphone (or Train Phone?) > communication system? Or suggest some good reference material? When did > the system come into use? I've seen some photos of tenders with what looks > like antennas on them. Was it used on both freight and passenger trains. > Speaking of passenger trains I've seen brass models of PRR and other > railroads with the antenna on passenger car roofs but I have never seen > photos of other railroad locomotives with the antenna's on them. Are the > models wrong or haven't I been looking hard enough at the other railroads. > Bottomline, were they unique to the PRR and if so why? Recently someone > mentioned that either train stations or interlocking towers were equipped > with the trainphone as well. What would a typical antenna look like on a > structure like this...the small round disks you see on some cabin cars or > the long tubular antenna found on locomotives. And where would it be > located..on the roof, on the exterior wall, on a pole??? Some photos show > the antennas going through the roof on some locomotives but on others they > seem to travel down along either the nose of the loco or down the rear of > the unit. Was there a standard or did the interior plumbing of the > locomotives require variations? In the cab what did the unit look like? A > regular telephone handset with a button to push to either talk or listen? > If noticed that the portion of the antenna that runs parallel to the loco > roof is a different diameter than the vertical segment, the part that goes > through the roof/nose. Why is that? Was the horizontal segment a hollow > tube with a smaller diameter wire running through it? > > Was the Trainphone used system wide or limited to certain regions? Was a > certain train assigned a specific frequency and could different trains > speak to each other? > > I hope I didn't ask to many questions. Any info you can provide would be > greatly appreciated. > > Kris Kollar > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: RE: P54 cars on other roads > From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 97 08:51:49 -0500 > > I was unaware of the Erie and SQH. The other raos I knew of was the Boston & > Maine. They bought quite a few for commuter service. > > regards > Andy Miller > > >To list members at PRR-TALK@dsop.com > > > >A while back, there was some discussion of P54 coaches > >on the list. My memory was that somebody mentioned > >that P54's were used by at least seven different railroads, > >but as far as I could tell, never did mention > >which seven roads these were. > > > >So, which seven roads were they? I will take a guess, > >but this is all it is: just a guess! > > > >(1) PRR (obvious) > >(2) LIRR (likely, since it was a subsidiary) > >(3) PRSL (same as above) > >(4) Erie (I have seen a photo of an ex-PRR PB54 w/Erie > > lettering, so a P54 isn't too much of a strech) > >(5) Susquehanna (same as Erie above) > > > >At this point, I give up! So if someone has the > >real answer, I for one would like to know... > > > >Till later... > > > > Claus Schlund (modeling steam-era PRR in N scale) > > San Francisco, CA > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- > >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > >------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: RE: PRR power in Wash DC > From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:09:06 -0500 > > > > > ---------- > > From: rboydrrs@inlink.com[SMTP:rboydrrs@inlink.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 1997 7:58 PM > > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > > Subject: PRR power in Wash DC > > > > > > The thing I find curious is that, if the tunnel clearances at DC were > > too > > tight for domes and highliners, how did they get electrics thru there? > > > > ________________________ > > They didn't. Overhead stopped at at Union Station, almost up to the > > mouth of the tunnel. Not through the tunnel. The overhead DID run > > through on the freight tracks (which bypassed much of the passenger > > train complex) along the Anacostia River, rejoining the southbound > > main near 2nd St And Virginia Ave, and then the double track with > > overhead went over the Long Bridge (that's the bridge's actual name) > > into Arlington, and on to Pot Yard. > > > > And now, for those who aren't exatly fascinated by the Pennsy in and > > around D.C., for those of us who were there, who rode the PRR and > > other roads into and out of D.C, who saw steam and diesel, and > > witnessed it all including the onset of Conrail, we think that the > > Washington area railroad scene was perhaps the most diverse, ecclectic > > (OK, and electric), colorful, streamline and limited dimintated, laid > > back, and memorable as any. Sure, it wasn't as Pennsy intensive as > > Philly, but there was still plenty enough to see. It's always such > > fun when a thread starts and some of us can rant with at least a small > > element of truth on our posts. And now, back to boxcars. > > > > Andrew h, kitbashing his own Pennsy E8's and E7's as we speak. To hell > > with the ready-to-run stuff. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out > From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:04:12 -0600 (CST) > > In message <16b68b47.34862a46@aol.com> BowerPRR writes: > > Regarding Mr. Vondruska's comments about the new winter issue of the PRRT&HS > > "Keystone" magazine. I hope that he and others on this forum truly learn to > > appreciate the efforts and production of this publication. The staff of this > > historic society along with those of the other regional PRRT&HS chapters are > > unpaid volunteers. They bring their professional and intellectual talents to > > bear to bring all of us who are members GREAT and accurate historic documents > > that are first rate reference materials. I don't think it is in anyone's best > > interest to snipe or throw stones about their efforts. > > > > Well said Brad. Having published a quarterly organizational newsletter - one > that never came close to the quality of the Keystone - for 10 years, I can > attest to the work that goes into such a publication. The Keystone staff is to > be highly commended for their efforts. > > Don Harper > Texas A&M Marine Lab > 5007 Avenue U > Galveston, TX 77551 > 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 > harperd@tamug.tamu.edu > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: Answers and Questions... > From: SUVCW ORR > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:04:16 EST > > In a message dated 97-12-04 09:16:25 EST, dfresh20@erols.com writes: > > << > I've got a copy of the Jan. 1953 NMRA reprint of the ORER. I don't find > any listing in it for Breyers as a private car owner, unlike Supplee. > >> > Unfortunately, this does not mean that Breyer's did not have cars lettered for > there products etc. As with tank cars, they may have leased GPEX milk cars > and placed their own name but not reporting marks on the car. The ORER is > only shows the owner of the reporting marks as the owner. Leasees are not > shown. > > However, without photographic evidence, I would not create such a car. > > George, you might want to contact Breyer's for information and any photos > which they may have in their corporate archives. Other companies have been > willing to share such onformation and give permission to print the photos. > > Rich Orr > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: Trainphone > From: "Jerry Britton" > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 97 10:26:15 -0400 > > On 12/4/97 8:28 AM, kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL (kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL) > wrote: > > >Can anyone explain a little about the PRR's Trainphone (or Train Phone?) > >communication system? > > If someone wants to do a nice write-up on this, I'll post it as a FAQ at > "Keystone Crossings". > > --------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > Progressive Information Technologies > britton@pit-magnus.com > http://www.pit-magnus.com > 1 JPEG = 1K words > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Trainphone > From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 97 08:49:37 CST > > Hi, everyone, > > RE the question on the trainphone, sometime in this past year (I've got it > at home) TRAINS magazine did an article on early radio communication on the > railroads which included a very nice section on the PRR's trainphone. In > general, it appears from what I can remember that the trainphone was mostly > used on the busier mainline segments of the PRR. For example, in the recent > color book on the line to Sodus Point you see almost no trainphone > equipment. Trainphone allowed loco to caboose communication or either one > to towers. Its range was limited because it was not true radio. Even > within its range the transmission quality was not always good. By the > early 1960s it was being phased out - I seem to recall that some GP 30's > were delivered with trainphone. There's also an entertaining treatment of > trainphone in that PRR b&w promo film from the 1940s which is widely > available in video. > > PRR Forever! > > Sincerely, > > George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu > Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Trainphone -Reply > From: bill.laird@coastalcorp.com > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:04:19 -0600 > > Kris, > > While not an expert in the RR Trainphone system, I have always been > interested in it=2E I will try to answer some of your questions=2E > > >>> "kkollar@PAMDT=2EANG=2EAF=2EMIL" 12/4/97, 08:17am wrote>>> > >Greetings everyone, > > >I hope this subject hasn't been discussed recently since > >I don't like boring all of you with redundant questions=2E > > It has, but I don't believe anyone minds a rehash for the sake of > knowledge transfer=2E > > >Can anyone explain a little about the PRR's Trainphone > >(or Train Phone?) communication system? > > The PRR Trainphone system was a low frequency, inductance > communications system=2E Voice communications were transmitted via > inductance by the long horizontal antennas on locomotives and cabin > cars and received by antennas within a few yards of the track=2E Range > was very limited=2E Not really a radio system, it was based on the > electrical principal of inductance, that is the ability of an > electrical conductor to pick up the current from another conductor > close by=2E > > >Or suggest some good reference material? When did the system > >come into use? I've seen some photos of tenders with what=20 > >looks like antennas on them=2E Was it used on both freight and > >passenger trains=2E > > I am currently on a business trip to London and do not have access to > my "library" so can't give a specific reference, but one of the RR > magazines had an article in the last several months on early railroad > communications systems=2E It covered the PRR Trainphone is some detail > with some photographs=2E If you are unable to track it down, I would > be glad to mail or FAX it to you upon my return home (mid Dec)=2E > > >Speaking of passenger trains I've seen brass models of PRR=20 > >and other railroads with the antenna on passenger car roofs > >but I have never seen photos of other railroad locomotives=20 > >with the antenna's on them=2E Are the models wrong or haven't > >I been looking hard enough at the other railroads=2E =20 > >Bottomline, were they unique to the PRR and if so why? > > Some passenger cars (PRR and other RR's) had long horizontal antennas > mounted on the roof for reception of standard AM radio broadcasts=2E=20 > Radio sets for "entertainment" were installed in some observation and > lounge cars=2E However, the PRR was not the only RR to experiment with > early communications systems, I believe UP was another=2E > > >Recently someone mentioned that either train stations or > >interlocking towers were equipped with the trainphone as well=2E > >What would a typical antenna look like on a structure like > >this=2E=2E=2Ethe small round disks you see on some cabin cars or > >the long tubular antenna found on locomotives=2E And where=20 > >would it be located=2E=2Eon the roof, on the exterior wall,=20 > >on a pole??? =20 > > I don't know much about the trackside antennas, except that any > facility that wanted to use the Trainphone (stations, towers, etc=2E) > had to have an antenna=2E > > >Some photos show the antennas going through the roof on some > >locomotives but on others they seem to travel down along either > >the nose of the loco or down the rear of the unit=2E Was there a > >standard or did the interior plumbing of the locomotives require > >variations? In the cab what did the unit look like? A regular > >telephone handset with a button to push to either talk or listen? > >If noticed that the portion of the antenna that runs parallel > >to the loco roof is a different diameter than the vertical=20 > >segment, the part that goes through the roof/nose=2E Why is that? > >Was the horizontal segment a hollow tube with a smaller=20 > >diameter wire running through it? > > Only thing I can help you with here is that the smaller diameter > segment of the antenna was the feedwire which carried the signals to > and from the horizontal radiating element of the antenna=2E > > >Was the Trainphone used system wide or limited to certain regions? =20 > > I believe it was more common in Lines East territory=2E > > >Was a certain train assigned a specific frequency and=20 > >could different trains speak to each other? > > There was only one "frequency" or channel, it was a party line > affair=2E Different trains could communicate with one another if they > were within the limited system range of one another (for example > while passing one another)=2E =20 > > >I hope I didn't ask to many questions=2E Any info you can provide > >would be greatly appreciated=2E > > >Kris Kollar > > Never too many questions, just not enough answers=2E > > Bill Laird > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: RE: Trainphone (LONG!!!) > From: Doug Drew > Date: 04 Dec 97 11:09:16 -0500 > > --====48545051495456505353===1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" > > OK, here's my understanding of how PRR's trainphone system came about, > and worked: > > Trainphone was adopted by PRR as a result of the railroad industry in > general losing the rights to 'service' radio bandwidth frequencies early in > the century, due to apparent lack of interest, or the inability to find > tube equipment durable enough to survive any length of time in on a jolting > steam locomotive. Due to Pennsy's huge traffic, it found itself with the > need for voice communication between trains and block stations, and between > trains themselves. Train orders, telegraphy and the like weren't cutting > it on PRR, yet it couldn't use radio for communication with trains. > > Trainphone used the track and/or lineside telegraph wires to convey voice > messages between loco and cabin car, between trains, or between trains > and block stations. It accomplished this by inducing a varying current into > rail or wires via an energized coil -- something akin to a radio signal -- > essentially turning rail or telegraph wire into a broadcasting antenna. > The message broadcast could then be picked up by antenna-equipped trains or > block stations -- the pickup antennae on moving equipment were the large > 'handrail' structures on the tenders of steam locomotives, atop diesel > locomotives, and virtually surrounding the longitude of a cabin car. > > Application of trainphone antennae had to vary, of course, with the > application. Pennsy Power 1 showed some of the original oddball trial > applications -- including atop the boilers of steam locomotives. I really don't > know why diameters of the receiving antennae might have varied -- I assume > regular pipe stock was used for receivers, and the smaller diameter "pipes" > may have been solid rods. > > The current-inducers were small semicircular devices -- usually in pairs > -- mounted on the underframes of the tender, diesel or cabin car. I'm not > sure what block stations used for inducers or receiving antenna, or if > they simply had their Inductive Train Telephone equipment (the formal name > for it) connected to lineside wires or to the rail itself, as the antennae > would have only been needed for moving equipment. > > The 'user-interface' was a typical telephone handset, hung on a box-like > instrument next to the engineer's seat on locomotives -- I assume it would > be above the conductor's desk in a cabin car. There was a speaker to get > the user's attention (i.e. "MG tower to engineer LCL-1") and the handset > was used to allow easier hearing and speaking on a noisy locomotive. > > I believe there were two "channels" or frequencies used, one for > engine-to-cabin (or vice versa) communication, and one for train-to- train or > train-to-block cabin communications. > > Trainphone was originally used on PRR's busiest lines, such as the > Pittsburgh division, as enhancing the ability to move trains in dense traffic > was its reason for being. I assume it probably was eventually used > system-wide, but I don't know for sure. > > Does anyone know if it was used in the electrified zone, and if so, how > did electric engines pick up the signal? > > I also don't know how on-train telephones used in some passenger trains > fit into this system, or if they used another system altogether. The > antennae seen on the roofs of some passenger cars would be for the on-train > telephone. > > Trainphone equipment is one of the things that made Pennsy equipment > distinctive, and is indicative of how the railroad coped with the huge traffic > it carried. > > Looking forward to any corrections to the above. > > -- Doug Drew > > kkollar wrote: > >Greetings everyone, > > > >I hope this subject hasn't been discussed recently since I don't like > >boring all of you with redundant questions. > > > >Can anyone explain a little about the PRR's Trainphone (or Train Phone?) > > >communication system? Or suggest some good reference material? When > did > >the system come into use? I've seen some photos of tenders with what > looks > >like antennas on them. Was it used on both freight and passenger > trains. > >Speaking of passenger trains I've seen brass models of PRR and other > >railroads with the antenna on passenger car roofs but I have never seen > >photos of other railroad locomotives with the antenna's on them. Are > the > >models wrong or haven't I been looking hard enough at the other > railroads. > >Bottomline, were they unique to the PRR and if so why? Recently someone > > >mentioned that either train stations or interlocking towers were > equipped > >with the trainphone as well. What would a typical antenna look like on > a > >structure like this...the small round disks you see on some cabin cars > or > >the long tubular antenna found on locomotives. And where would it be > >located..on the roof, on the exterior wall, on a pole??? Some photos > show > >the antennas going through the roof on some locomotives but on others > they > >seem to travel down along either the nose of the loco or down the rear > of > >the unit. Was there a standard or did the interior plumbing of the > >locomotives require variations? In the cab what did the unit look like? > A > >regular telephone handset with a button to push to either talk or > listen? > >If noticed that the portion of the antenna that runs parallel to the > loco > >roof is a different diameter than the vertical segment, the part that > goes > >through the roof/nose. Why is that? Was the horizontal segment a > hollow > >tube with a smaller diameter wire running through it? > > > >Was the Trainphone used system wide or limited to certain regions? Was > a > >certain train assigned a specific frequency and could different trains > >speak to each other? > > > >I hope I didn't ask to many questions. Any info you can provide would > be > >greatly appreciated. > > > >Kris Kollar > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- > >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > > >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > >------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > --====48545051495456505353===1 > Subject: Re: PRR electrification at DC; Was Florida train power at Wash > From: Robert Johnston > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:22:00 -0500 > Subject: Re: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out (fwd) > From: Mark D Bej > Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 12:50:38 EST > Subject: Re: Trainphone (fwd) > From: Mark D Bej > Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 12:57:45 EST > Subject: Trainphone FAQ > From: Jerry > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 97 13:15:29 -0400 > Subject: Re: Trainphone > From: Drew McGhee > Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 13:39:21 -0500 > Subject: Re: Trainphone -Reply > From: Stephen Bartlett > Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 13:40:36 -0500 > Subject: RE: K-5, now P70's > From: "Bob Zoeller" > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:57:47 -0600 > Subject: RE: MP-54's Again > From: "Bob Zoeller" > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:04:42 -0600 > Subject: RE: New Freedom Station > From: "Bob Zoeller" > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:18:19 -0600 > From: Jerry Britton > Subject: New Freedom Station > Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 12/02/97 > From: Rob Schoenberg > Date: Thu, 04 Dec 97 16:02:01 -0500 > Subject: George Pierson's Tuscarora Valley RR > From: Jerry > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 97 16:04:54 -0400 > Subject: Re: Trainphone > From: Chris Brandt > Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 17:20:44 -0500 > Subject: Re: more on the Florida trains > From: Hal6963 > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 18:40:24 EST > Subject: RE: New Freedom Station > From: "Bob Zoeller" > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 16:37:12 -0600 > Subject: Re: Trainphone > From: Stephen Bartlett > Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 16:59:52 -0500 > Subject: Re: Re Trains to Florida > From: PRRMAN > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 21:03:16 EST > Subject: Re: PRR in Wash area > From: PRRMAN > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 21:03:17 EST > Subject: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out > From: "Larry P. Morgan" > Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 23:09:42 -0500 > Subject: Attn: N-Scalers > From: GLD 828 > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 23:03:35 EST > Subject: Re: Trainphone (LONG!!!) > From: KEMACPRR > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 23:31:26 EST Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 06:36:21 +0000 Subject: Re: FOR SALE: Pennsy items for sale(LONG) From: locoshop@juno.com (Jeremy C Helms) Content-Length: 764 Hello again, Just to let everyone know, the items that were listed were all HO scale and there was $5 for shipping and handling. Also some items were sold (and asked for many times over) of the following: both SW9s, NW2, and 2 of the F3As. Thanks again and sorry for not providing this information in the first post. Jeremy Helms ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 08 Dec 97 09:17:51 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: hazmats in the GG 1s Content-Length: 12331 --====49545257494854515349===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" I don't know exactly what was done for the GG-1's, but I suspect the PCB-containing transformer cooling fluid had to be drained and replaced with something considered less carcinogenic by the EPA, or drained and NOT replaced. I understand that the Paoli MU maintenance shop was declared a 'Superfund' site, due to the contamination of the ground from so much PCB-containing transformer fluid dumped/leaked from the MU cars. General Electric up this way (Pittsfield Mass. transformer plant) gave away PCB-contaminated dirt to local homeowners to use as fill, in the 40's and 50's, that they are now having to reclaim from peoples' yards, beneath house additions, etc. at company expense. Harry W. Fitch IV wrote: >The real shame about the asbestos thing is that unless >you make it freyable it is not any danger whatsoever. > >You must be able to breath it in to have it stick in your >lung tissue. The public thinks that it has some sort of magic >action like radioactive isotopes and is going to GET YOU if >you stand too close to it. Removal is a sticky issue and one that >has caused pains in preservation efforts I'm sure. The alternative >of placing fiberglass wool insulation under the jacketing may one day >backfire because the States and Feds want their two cents with that now >too. > >The WM steam locomotive that has been preserved in steamable condition >in Hagerstown MD was fitted this way and with aluminum jacketing. The >aluminum >will not rust, but I wonder about the interaction with other metals and >chemicals. > >BTW, I new when I posted that note about the GG1's "hazmat" that they had >PCB's >in the transformers. I wanted to know what they did with it without >causing people >to overreact. > > > >Harry W. Fitch >hfitch@maranatha.net > Acts 4:12 > > >---------- >> From: Robert A. Boyd >> To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >> Subject: hazmats in the GG 1s >> Date: Friday, December 05, 1997 7:52 PM >> >> >>I love the GG1's but the fly in the ointment is who would >> >>want to deal with the hazmat of a 60 year old locomotive >> >>and also who would want to supply 11,000 volt- 25 Hertz >> >>electrical catenary? >> > >> >(Hazmat, I wonder what was in those GG1 transformers?) >> > >> >Harry W. Fitch >> >hfitch@maranatha.net >> >> ===== >> >> I understand that the cooling oil in the main transformers had PCB in it: >a >> preservative that is believed to cause cancer. As I recall, when the GG >> 1s were first retired, there was a big hassle over sending them to >museums >> because the EPA wanted the transmissions removed and stored - oil and all >- >> at a cost of some $5000 each. >> >> Evidently they solved that problem, seeing all the G motors that went to >> museums in the last few years. However, I wonder if they have >> transformers in them, or was the oil finally drained and legally disposed >> of? >> >> Would anyone with access to a GG 1 know what the story is? >> >> BTW: one wonders, had these environmental regs been around in 1950, how >> many old steamers would exist today with all that asbestos insulation? >> Still, it is necessary: its just a shame that some provision can't seem >to >> be made for preserving contaminated antiques. >> >> >> Bob Boyd >> Those Classic Trains >> "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" >> ____________________________________________ >> >> "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com >> "The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service" >> >> ____ooo___ooo__oo_0000_o_o__________________ >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------- >> Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >> cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >> ------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====49545257494854515349===1 From: Robert A. Boyd < Content-Length: 1545 Hi Guys, A while ago someone asked about one of the PRR C245's that is still around. This month's "The Railroad Press" had an article "Big Alcos of the Northeast" and included a listing of Alco centuries still around. Here's the PRR entries! -Rob Existing PRR Alco Centuries - Compiled by "The Railroad Press" Magazine, annotations by Paul Tupaczewski Model Original # To Notes C424 PRR 2415 PC 2415 - CR 2474 - GBW 319 - Sold to industrial user C425 PRR 2423 PC 2423 - CR 2423 - NYLE 6101 1 C425 PRR 2431 PC 2431 - CR 2431 - NYLE Parts Unit C425 PRR 2439 PC 2439 - CR 5073 - D&M 381 - Lake States 381 2 C425 PRR 2442 PC 2442 - CR 5076 - D&M 181 - Lake States 181 2 C425 PRR 2443 PC 2443 - CR 5077 - D&M 1280 - Lake States 1280 2 C425 PRR 2444 PC 2444 - CR 5078 - D&M 281 - Lake States 281 2 C636 PC 6342 CR 6792 - Delta Bulk Terminals 1001 3 Notes 1. Rebuild by Morrison-Knudson. Painted in MK yellow/black scheme. 2. Rebuilt by General Electric 1980/1981. Units numbered for date of rebuild (i.e. 381 was rebuilt in March 1981) 3. Ordered by PRR, but delivered after merger. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Re Trains to Florida Date: Mon, 08 Dec 97 10:43:49 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1308 Few thoughts, The NEC is still 11 (or 12 i forget) kV 25 Hz. New Jersey Transit equiptment for their "Northeast Direct" service (NJ transit lines to NY Penn Station) has to be able to switch over more or less on the fly from the 25K 60 hertz power transit uses to the 11K still used on the corridor. I've heard (but can't confirm or deny) that the 4800 is the only G with its transformers intact. (possibly why they keep it outdoors??) Rest of them had the transformers removed due to the PCB contamination. Of course all it would take is money to reequip the G's with new electrical gear! Rob >> a >>chance one GG-1 would be adapted to use modern 60 cps power. Does anyone >>here know if that plan is still viable? > >This is the first I've heard of it. I cannot imagine Amtrak, in its >present condition, paying for it. > >Rich Copeland > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: PB54's on the NYSW... Date: Mon, 08 Dec 97 10:55:23 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1259 Hi, A week or so ago there was a thread about MP54/P54's on other railroads. I asked a friend who's into the NYS&W about the ones they had and here's what he has to say: Rob --------------- NYS&W had three PB54's - 852, 854 and 855 (those are the NYS&W numbers, not sure if they're the same as the PRR numbers)... one of these cars (not sure which number) in later years had its passenger section removed, and the windows blanked out, and then another identical baggage door added. Me and Bob Mohowski talked for hours on what this car was, and after close investigation of the photo (a really good clear photo of the car is in "Rails Around Gotham" - if you look close, you can see where the windows were plated over). I didn't think the PRR/LIRR had any "B54's!" Don't know if the Erie had similar cars... - P ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: SALE: "Keystone Crossings" CD Date: Mon, 8 Dec 97 13:27:13 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1195 Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings" is currently in production/replication and all current orders will be shipped by the end of the week. There is still time to place orders for delivery prior to Christmas. The CD is cross-platform and contains numerous Acrobat PDF versions of many PRR documents, including a CT1000E, track charts, book of rules, freight schedule, etc. The cost is $30, inclusive of shipping. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/cd.html for details. Proceeds help offset the costs of running "Keystone Crossings" and "PRR-Talk". Thanks. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: New Keystone is out Date: Mon, 8 Dec 97 13:59:55 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 2090 On 12/8/97 2:01 PM, Bob Zoeller (bob@amsignal.com) wrote: >Sorry for rambling, but not having attended the annual meeting, is there a >lot of Lines West material there? Tom V. has been on this soap box numerous times (perhaps rightfully so). However, it was pointed out that there has been more "Lines West" stuff in past issues of "The Keystone" than even he was aware of at the time. Remember, "The Keystone" is a product of its contributors. It's not that they won't print a "Lines West" article...nobody writes them!!! Seeing as how I was only six when the Pennsy bought the farm, and have always lived in the Harrisburg, Pa., area, I don't have a lot of "Lines West" material to contribute. However, I will reaffirm my standing offer: Anyone willing to author "Lines West" material may post it as part of "Keystone Crossings". Tom V. has done so already via histories of many of the "Lines West" branches and he promises more (see "Hobo's Guide..."). I'll also post any photos, track charts, timetables, and other documents pertaining to "Lines West" than anyone cars to keyboard or scan into an electronic format that I can use. I've got more than adequate drive space. Bandwidth will increase in 1998, so access will become easier. And, unlike the PRRT&HS, I don't charge an annual membership fee!!! So, let "Keystone Crossings" be your soap box. The excuse is gone. Here is a free forum. All you need do is provide the content! --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: New Keystone is out Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:01:10 -0600 Content-Length: 1894 Larry Morgan wrote: "Many of us would like to have the opportuninity to attend such meetings. When they hold one close enough for me to drive, I will certainly try. The furthest east would be Columbus Ohio" I regret all the meetings being held back East, but other conflicts, not distance, have prevented me from attending. My bigger regret is the small amount of Lines West content (I am interested in Chicago and Fort Wayne divisions) in the society and the Keystone in general. I am also not slamming anyone- the heart of the Pennsy was back East, but I am really puzzled at the lack of western material available. OTOH, I have nothing to contribute since I was too busy in school, work, etc., to railfan in those days. For Chicago, I use to think it was the neighborhoods Pennsy traveled through - I certainly would have been reluctant to take an expensive camera in many of them. My family moved from the Englewood area in 1948. But that doesn't explain why no Colehour to Fort Wayne photos. And besides, 20 years ago, in a Milwaukee hobby shop I saw about 400 sharp color prints from Nikon slides of passenger equipment out of Union Station taken in the 60's. When I went back to the owner to get the photographers name to contact him, the hobby shop had closed permanently. So they may exist in someone's attic. Sorry for rambling, but not having attended the annual meeting, is there a lot of Lines West material there? Bob Zoeller Fox Point, WI ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: Re Trains to Florida Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:06:43 -0600 Content-Length: 1174 Since my life career was influenced by Raymond Loewy, I love the GG1 and the T1, but as to reviving G's for operation, does anyone else get the same feeling I do in the cab of the G? I am not waistline-impaired, but I need a shoehorn to get in, and claustrophobia sets in once inside. Also, I have never seen this mentioned, but the camelbacks were supposedly phased out due to separation of engineer and fireman, but the only G cab I have been in, at Altoona, has the same problem. Continuing a previous thought on old RR mag myths, in my "library" reading of 47-51 Trains, I came across a description of the GG1 cab as roomy. Is there some other GG1 I don't know about? Regards, Bob (Wishing the G's made it to Lines West) Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Re Trains to Florida Date: Mon, 08 Dec 97 15:36:21 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1563 I'm pretty sure that all of the GG1 cabs were the same-pretty darn cramped! I know I've been inside at least one other and it was also definitely not "roomy!" The separation of the fireman and engineer sure isn't the optimal arrangement but the camelbacks were outlawed due occurances of thrown rods punching up through the floor of the cab! Rob Since my life career was influenced by Raymond Loewy, I love the GG1 and = the T1, but as to reviving G's for operation, does anyone else get the = same feeling I do in the cab of the G? I am not waistline-impaired, but = I need a shoehorn to get in, and claustrophobia sets in once inside. =20 Also, I have never seen this mentioned, but the camelbacks were = supposedly phased out due to separation of engineer and fireman, but the = only G cab I have been in, at Altoona, has the same problem. =20 Continuing a previous thought on old RR mag myths, in my "library" = reading of 47-51 Trains, I came across a description of the GG1 cab as = roomy. Is there some other GG1 I don't know about? Regards, Bob (Wishing the G's made it to Lines West) Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 08 Dec 97 16:18:56 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: Railroad Simulations/Games (long, as usual) Content-Length: 10021 --====55495551525652545653===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" I tried an early version of "Train Dispatcher" that was programmed for the Commodore 64. The part that bothered me most about it was it ran too fast -- it couldn't be slowed down to run closer to 'real time', even at the lowest 'level'. Because of the speed, it was a challenging game, but just a game -- not a simulation. In the C-64 version, it was pretty simple and not terribly realistic. One program I can recommend, but one I'm not sure is even being made anymore, is "Sid Meier's Railroad Tycoon" by MicroProse. It focuses more on the railroad as a social entity, and it's relationship to the industrialization of the country, rather than being strictly a "dispatching" type of game. One can start out in the Eastern US, Western US, England, or Western Europe back in the infancy of railroads, and it's up to you to find your initial traffic base, build on that, and expand your railroad via branch lines to new industrial sources; main lines to new cities; 'rate wars' with other railroads serving the same cities; upgrading your line with tunnels, viaducts, new motive power and trains; etc. You can even build industries such as steel mills, to feed your railroad even more traffic, if you have enough money (no ICC in this game!). Motive power and traffic sources change as time goes on. You are responsible for planning train routings, and pickups and setoffs at key industrial sites. Trains make money or not, depending how well you devise your routings and schedules. The income of your railroad as a whole is tracked, which allows you (or not) to buy new equipment, upgrade your lines, buy other railroad's stock, retire your own debt. You can play in "cutthroat" mode, where the computer plays against you and can actually have you deposed from your own railroad, via stock purchases. You 'win' based on how your railroad's bottom line compares to the railroads of three other "tycoons" that the computer controls (names like James J. Hill and Cornelius Vanderbilt). Games can be saved and continued at a later time. If I botch a strategy, I often go back to an earlier 'save' and try to rewrite history. It's a game of great challenge and depth (actually, the best thought-through computer game I've ever seen), which probably explains why it's out of production. It takes something more than a quick trigger finger to play. I wouldn't recommend playing it on a laptop, though. Once your railroad gets fairly large, a good-sized monitor is required to keep track of all the activity, plus there are a lot of palettes and 'news screens' floating around. For my money, this type of simulation beats a "model railroad simulator" such as It has really made me appreciate the intelligence and skill of giants such as J. Edgar Thomson. bill.laird wrote: >I travel extensively and always carry my laptop. I often spend those >wasted hours in an airport lobby, onboard an aircraft, or in a hotel >room playing computer solitare. I think a good railroad simulation >or realistic game would be a lot more entertaining way of passing the >time. > >I am looking for honest evaluations of railroad simulations and games >currently on the market. I know of two, but have never seen them. >The first is a simulation of the NE corridor ("Train Dispatcher, I >think) and the second is "Train Engineer" which is supposed to have >cab view graphics. > >I would appreciate anyone with experience with either of these >packages, or any others, to post an evaluation. I don't mind paying >for a good package that will be enjoyable to run, but I don't want to >spend a lot trying several packages which turn out to be >oversimplistic games. > >Thanks, > >Bill Laird > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====55495551525652545653===1 Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:08:15 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: MP-54 Content-Length: 1748 Hello folks... This is for the guy asking about the MP-54 s used on other railroads. In the late seventies commuter service between Baltimore and Washington was upgraded on the former PRR line...cars that had been in service on this line were former PRR MP-54 class cars. When the newer cars (were either silverliners or Jersey arrows...not sure)came to Maryland the old MP-54 cars were stored for a time at the mail storage tracks under the post office next to Penn station in Baltimore.(tracks now gone) The Washington Terminal Company (Washington union station)formerly co-owed by PRR-B&O bought one or two of the old cars and painted it in company colors(blue with white trim).(remember the old 40 series RS-1 s they had?) Anyway i believe the car kept its old number(a 500 series number comes to mind) and i think it was used as a shuttle between Ivy City engine house and Union station.I know there was one car for sure..there might have been two. I don't know if they still have the car...they might have gotten rid of it. This car was a coach. H.Mummert PS...somewhere in my old Trains magazines is a article about some railroad out west that bought some second hand...will post the info when i find it. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 18:23:44 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Railroad Simulations/Games Content-Length: 2456 bill.laird@coastalcorp.com wrote: > > I am looking for honest evaluations of railroad simulations and games > currently on the market. I know of two, but have never seen them. > The first is a simulation of the NE corridor ("Train Dispatcher, I > think) and the second is "Train Engineer" which is supposed to have > cab view graphics. > Bill, A couple of good demos are available on-line: 1. Trainmaster Locomotive Simulator, from Corporate Strategies, Inc. http:www.rails.com The screen view is a set of very realistically performing controls on the lower half, and a profile view with several signal choices on the top. Sound is included if you have a sound card. I don't know how it would do on an LCD screen, but the demo gives you the chance to check it out. File size is around 800 kb to download. 2. Train Dispatcher, by Signal Computer Consultants - demo from http://www.usaor.net/signal This one has a LOT of territory to control. 3. An interesting freeware program simulating two New York Subway interlockings is available from the author, Bernard S. Greenberg, at http://www.basistech.com/bsg/nxsys.htm He has some fascinating front views that can move you through the interlockings. Moderate detail, but well worth a look. 4. If you are interested in subways, check out the JoeKorNer subway page at http://home.earthlink.net/~joekor/indexnew.htm Frank Bryan, Bryan Consulting Services, last seen in Missouri (he moves around) has several DOS based simulations, NE Corridor, CTC Dispatcher, a Metra (Chicago) CTC simulator, a Track Warrant simulator, and a locomotive simulator. These use ASCII symbols to generate the screen display. On the CTC, TWC, and loco simulator you can set up your own route files with a little planning. The route files are not compiled. If you are interested I will try to find his address. Abracadata's Train Engineer seemed a little juvenile to me. A demo is/was available from them at http:www.abracadata.com Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 18:46:38 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Subject: Re: Railroad Simulations/Games Content-Length: 1509 At 09:20 AM 12/8/97 -0600, bill.laird@coastalcorp.com wrote: >I travel extensively and always carry my laptop. I often spend those >wasted hours in an airport lobby, onboard an aircraft, or in a hotel >room playing computer solitare. I think a good railroad simulation >or realistic game would be a lot more entertaining way of passing the >time. > >I am looking for honest evaluations of railroad simulations and games >currently on the market. [...] I have had hours of enjoyment playing simulation games from an outfit in England called SIAM games; they have a web page (below) that has their entire catalog and a few free sample games (cut down or simplified versions, but with the same track layout). I liked playing one of them (Railfreight Cornish China Clay) so much that I have based my home layout on its trackplan and operations (modified from clay to ore, and moved from Cornwall to the USA). These people really try to simulate the operations of a railroad or a segment thereof, and it shows. http://www.siam.co.uk/siam/siam.htm Good luck! Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:19:02 -0600 (CST) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: Videotape Content-Length: 857 I just received a postcard from BCB Productions in Downingtown, PA, touting their Pennyslvania Railroad Steam & Electric Years 1955-1964, Volume II. Volume I coveres the period 1936-1952. Would anyone who has purchased one of their tapes care to comment on the content and quality? Thanks Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 19:32:39 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: New Keystone is out Content-Length: 2207 Bob Zoeller wrote: Snio > Sorry for rambling, but not having attended the annual meeting, is > there a lot of Lines West material there? > > Bob Zoeller > Fox Point, WI I have not found a lot to this point, but I certainly have not exhausted all available sources. I grew up near Gary, and remember PRR trains to Chicago and the Gary US Steel. At present I am interested in PRR Fort Wayne to Gary & Chicago, PRR through Indianapolis to St. Louis, and PRR Indianapolis south to Madison and Louisville where my wife grew up. If anyone has WEB locations with relevant information, please sahre thme. Like many others, I use the PRR as a theme for modeling. I actually have a Pennsylvania room which focuses on Pennsylvania mountains and the PRR circa 1939. The 1955 Indiana room will open in 1998 or 1999. We will open a "tunnel" through both space (Ohio) and time (the 1940's) to connect them. The tunnel actually will go through a closet. I may be unique to the group in the I do O gauge "hi rail" and have a lot of Lionel operating pieces. I also have no other tie to the PRR. My wife has her own N gauge 1940's layout. We do things for our own fun. In some cases, Tom V., myself, and my wife plan to do our own field research -- starting at the Madison Hill. If that unique piece of 19th century engineering is not worth an article to the "Easterners" then nothing will be. Unfortunately, I cannot go back in time and get pictures of the way it was. Hey Tom! Encourage your wife to come along. My wife would love to have her company. She gets tired of seeing nothing but men. She might even get your wife interested in trains. She can be quite persuasive. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 19:54:41 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: Lines West activities? Content-Length: 2381 W.C. Knepper wrote: > > Just quit trying to derail a good thing. > Hi W.C! Don't be sour here. Nobody is trying to derail a good thing. I would like to see it maid it better. At present it is only a "small" good thing to those of us in the West. Good things must be made better, or they will get worse. Nothing ever remains the same. The PRRT&HS started small in the East and grew. Maybe it is time for it to reach west. After all, the PRR grew to the west. Some groups try to stifle suggestions for improvements. They offend those who might be interested, and eventually "the faithful" are driven away. Those groups die. Smarter groups try to harnass the energy of newcomers with suggestions and look for ways to take a good thing and make it better. At no time in this thread was there EVER any criticism of the KEYSTONE. I have not personally subscribed long enough to be anything except thoroughly impressed. The only criticism was the PRRT&HS turning down offers of assistance with its WEB page. It eventually paid for it. In today's world, the society needs to change, because it is nearly impossible for someone West of the Allehenies. This should be an obvious fact to anyone. How many PITTSBURGH residents are active members? Today I collaporate with colleagues in England, Germany, Russia, Poland, South Africa, South America, Japan, Korea, and many locations in the United States. We rarely get the opportunity to meet in person or to use the fancy TELECONFERENCING systems. We exchange information and ideas. I realize not everyone in the PRRT&HS has a computer or wants to learn about it. Why should they hinder those who do. I am no youngster myself. I am 50. I do not plan to grow old gracefully. Old age will have to drag me in kicking and screaming. I am constantly learning new things and new ideas. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W.C. Knepper" Subject: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out (fwd) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:35:10 -0500 Content-Length: 9900 Hi Carl, You guys out there in Pittsburgh had better advertise the chapter........Two many people out that way didn't know of the chapter.........When are we going to have another convention out there ? I know what you mean when you said that the Lewistown Station paper were a mess.........The York chapter (Northern Central Chapter) took a whole truck load up to the station ..........It was a mess.....dirty , filthy is a better word, and stink.......like it had been stored in a damp basement for 50 years.....like it had ! They are trying to make arrangements to hire some staff to start working the papers again........but with the work in front of them, it will take more years than I probably have left. Keep up the good work out there in the western end of the line.....Maybe it will spark some others to start chapters !!!! It takes members and effort to get and keep a chapter running. Just like it takes Jerry and Mark to put out the good looking web pagers. (A1) W.C.Knepper ( boxcar46@nfdc.net) ---------- > From: Carl Izzo > To: PRR-Talk > Cc: Jerry Britton ; Mark D Bej > Subject: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out (fwd) > Date: Sunday, December 07, 1997 10:28 PM > > So much PRR information; so little time! > > The national PRRT&HS officers, board members and "Keystone" editorial > staff are to be commended for the job they are doing. Believe me, they > are doing the best they can. Time is the enemy. It is very difficult to > pursue pet projects while working. It is even more difficult after > retiring. I am now a consultant and don't have time to read my E-mail. > > My hat is off to Jerry Britton, Mark Bej and others who are able to provide > us with PRR information on the internet. Thank you! Keep up the good > work! > > The following is MY opinion on the archives at Lewistown Station and is NOT > the official position of the PRRT&HS. Some steps have been taken to make > the information available. Owing to the large volume of material at the > Lewistown Station, and its condition, it will be some time before members > and the public are able to access anything in a reasonable manner. The > material was not only dirty and bad smelling, it was disorganized. I > know, because I had some of the drawings and maps from the Pittsburgh Union > Station in my garage until we were able to find more suitable storage. We > had to remove it from the station within a limited time frame because it > was slated for destruction. > > Carl P. Izzo, President > Pittsburgh Chapter, PRRT&HS > > ---------- > > Farom: PRR-Talk > > To: PRR-Talk > > Subject: PRR-Talk Digest - 12/05/97 > > Date: Friday, December 05, 1997 12:10 AM > > > > PRR-Talk Digest - Friday, December 5, 1997 > > > > Trainphone > > by > > RE: P54 cars on other roads > > by Andrew S. Miller > > RE: PRR power in Wash DC > > by Harmantas, Andrew G. > > Re: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out > > by Donald E. Harper, Jr. > > Re: Answers and Questions... > > by SUVCW ORR > > Re: Trainphone > > by Jerry Britton > > Trainphone > > by George Pierson > > Trainphone -Reply > > by > > RE: Trainphone (LONG!!!) > > by Doug Drew > > Re: PRR electrification at DC; Was Florida train power at Wash DC > > by Robert Johnston > > Re: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out (fwd) > > by Mark D Bej > > Re: Trainphone (fwd) > > by Mark D Bej > > Trainphone FAQ > > by Jerry > > Re: Trainphone > > by Drew McGhee > > Re: Trainphone -Reply > > by Stephen Bartlett > > RE: K-5, now P70's > > by Bob Zoeller > > RE: MP-54's Again > > by Bob Zoeller > > RE: New Freedom Station > > by Bob Zoeller > > Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 12/02/97 > > by Rob Schoenberg > > George Pierson's Tuscarora Valley RR > > by Jerry > > Re: Trainphone > > by Chris Brandt > > Re: more on the Florida trains > > by Hal6963 > > RE: New Freedom Station > > by Bob Zoeller > > Re: Trainphone > > by Stephen Bartlett > > Re: Re Trains to Florida > > by PRRMAN > > Re: PRR in Wash area > > by PRRMAN > > Re: New "Keystone" Is Out > > by Larry P. Morgan > > Attn: N-Scalers > > by GLD 828 > > Re: Trainphone (LONG!!!) > > by KEMACPRR > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Subject: Trainphone > > From: > > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 97 7:28:13 EST > > > > Greetings everyone, > > > > I hope this subject hasn't been discussed recently since I don't like > > boring all of you with redundant questions. > > > > Can anyone explain a little about the PRR's Trainphone (or Train Phone?) > > communication system? Or suggest some good reference material? When did > > > the system come into use? I've seen some photos of tenders with what > looks > > like antennas on them. Was it used on both freight and passenger trains. > > > Speaking of passenger trains I've seen brass models of PRR and other > > railroads with the antenna on passenger car roofs but I have never seen > > photos of other railroad locomotives with the antenna's on them. Are the > > > models wrong or haven't I been looking hard enough at the other > railroads. > > Bottomline, were they unique to the PRR and if so why? Recently someone > > mentioned that either train stations or interlocking towers were equipped > > > with the trainphone as well. What would a typical antenna look like on a > > > structure like this...the small round disks you see on some cabin cars or > > > the long tubular antenna found on locomotives. And where would it be > > located..on the roof, on the exterior wall, on a pole??? Some photos > show > > the antennas going through the roof on some locomotives but on others > they > > seem to travel down along either the nose of the loco or down the rear of > > > the unit. Was there a standard or did the interior plumbing of the > > locomotives require variations? In the cab what did the unit look like? > A > > regular telephone handset with a button to push to either talk or listen? > > > If noticed that the portion of the antenna that runs parallel to the loco > > > roof is a different diameter than the vertical segment, the part that > goes > > through the roof/nose. Why is that? Was the horizontal segment a hollow > > > tube with a smaller diameter wire running through it? > > > > Was the Trainphone used system wide or limited to certain regions? Was a > > > certain train assigned a specific frequency and could different trains > > speak to each other? > > > > I hope I didn't ask to many questions. Any info you can provide would be > > > greatly appreciated. > > > > Kris Kollar > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Subject: RE: P54 cars on other roads > > From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) > > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 97 08:51:49 -0500 > > > > I was unaware of the Erie and SQH. The other raos I knew of was the > Boston & > > Maine. They bought quite a few for commuter service. > > > > regards > > Andy Miller > > > > >To list members at PRR-TALK@dsop.com > > > > > >A while back, there was some discussion of P54 coaches > > >on the list. My memory was that somebody mentioned > > >that P54's were used by at least seven different railroads, > > >but as far as I could tell, never did mention > > >which seven roads these were. > > > > > >So, which seven roads were they? I will take a guess, > > >but this is all it is: just a guess! > > > > > >(1) PRR (obvious) > > >(2) LIRR (likely, since it was a subsidiary) > > >(3) PRSL (same as above) > > >(4) Erie (I have seen a photo of an ex-PRR PB54 w/Erie > > > lettering, so a P54 isn't too much of a strech) > > >(5) Susquehanna (same as Erie above) > > > > > >At this point, I give up! So if someone has the > > >real answer, I for one would like to know... > > > > > >Till later... > > > > > > Claus Schlund (modeling steam-era PRR in N scale) > > > San Francisco, CA > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- > > >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > > > >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:46:27 EST Subject: PRRT&HS was(Once-Singed LINESWEST responds once again) Content-Length: 1272 REgarding the future of the PRRT&HS, I again with most of Tom's statements. The problem is that local chapters host the National Convnetion. With the death of the GR&I chapter and the disappearance of the Cincinnati chapter, the Pittsburgh Chapter is the furthest west. If you want to influence the Society, the easiest way is to form chapters west of Pittsburgh. In order to be eligible to run for the board, you need to be a past chapter president. Without chapter membership, you are shut out. This especially true since the only thing the membership votes on is the board members. All other decisions are made by the BOD. The only benefit any member receives from the Society is the Keystone unless you belong to a chapter. Until the archives at Lewiston are up and running, there is little the society can offer. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:46:29 EST Subject: Re: Questions?? Content-Length: 1024 In a message dated 97-12-06 22:00:31 EST, locoshop@juno.com writes: << I had a couple of questions I was wondering if anyone could answer. First I was wondering when the Pennsylvania Railroad changed their lettering on cars from the old way of spelling out Pennsylvania and went to the Circle Keystone emblem? January 1, 1930 Also when was the change from Circle Keystone to Shadow Keystone? February, 1954 When did PRR change their passenger locos from DGLE 5 stripe to Tuscan 5 stripe August, 1952 and then to single stripe > November, 1955 Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:46:30 EST Subject: Re: New Keystone Is Out Content-Length: 554 The Pittsburgh Chapter still exists. It meets the second Friday of the month at Good Sheapard Church, Monroeville, PA Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 00:32:24 -0500 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: The Accidental Railfan (almost) Content-Length: 887 My sister who lives in Pittsburgh got married last Saturday (it was fun driving through the 2 feet of snow we got in Erie), and the directions to the wedding mentioned driving through Conway. Sure enough, the chapel is right across from Conway Yard. No time before hand to check it out, and it was dark by the time it was over :-( Atleast I have good directions for a future visit. -- Jerry Shickler (now in North East, PA) e-mail: geshick@velocity.net ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bill.laird@coastalcorp.com Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 5:47:57 -0600 Subject: RR Simulation/Games Evaluations (LONG) Content-Length: 8780 A couple of days ago I sent out a message requesting evaluations of railroad simulations and games. I was very gratified to promptly receive a number of replies. Some of the replies included a request to share any information I received. First my sincere thanks to the following individuals (some of whom I only have e-mail addresses for and not any name) who replied with evaluations or information on web sites having simulations/games. drmdrm@mail.netnitco.net Don johncoop@microsoft.com John ddrew@channing-bete.com mercury@metronet.com Charles scraft@cswnet.com John M. Martin kd5xb@amsat.org Earl Needham dennis@BBN.COM Dennis sbartlet@capecod.net Steve Bartlett Jcomita@juno.com John Comita Following are summaries of the information provided on various railroad simulations/games: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Package: Track Builder Web Site: http://www.usaor.net/signal/ Evaluation: None provided ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Package: Trainmaster from SSI Web Site: None Evaluation: It's nice, but has no in-cab graphics. The program is about running a train down the road, not switching or anything else. It has a side view of the train and tracks. This program was advertised in the back of Trains magazine some time back. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Package: Railfreight Cornish China Clay from SIAM (other games also available from SIAM) Web Site: http://www.siam.co.uk/siam/siam.htm Evaluation: I have had hours of enjoyment playing simulation games from an outfit in England called SIAM games; they have a web page (below) that has their entire catalog and a few free sample games (cut down or simplified versions, but with the same track layout). I liked playing one of them (Railfreight Cornish China Clay) so much that I have based my home layout on its trackplan and operations (modified from clay to ore, and moved from Cornwall to the USA). These people really try to simulate the operations of a railroad or a segment thereof, and it shows. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Package: Trainmaster Locomotive Simulator, from Corporate Strategies, Inc. Web Site: http://www.rails.com Evaluation: The screen view is a set of very realistically performing controls on the lower half, and a profile view with several signal choices on the top. Sound is included if you have a sound card. I don't know how it would do on an LCD screen, but the demo gives you the chance to check it out. File size is around 800 kb to download. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Package: Train Engineer from Abracadata Web Site: http://abracadata.com Evaluation: Seems little juvenile. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Package: Freeware program simulating two New York Subway Interlockings by Bernard S. Greenberg Web Site: http://www.basistech.com/bsg/nxsys.htm Evaluation: Some fascinating front views that can move you through the interlockings. Moderate detail, but well worth a look. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Package: Frank Bryan, Bryan Consulting Services, last seen in Missouri (he moves around) has several DOS based simulations, NE Corridor, CTC Dispatcher, a Metra (Chicago) CTC simulator, a Track Warrant simulator, and a locomotive simulator. Web Site: None Evaluation: These use ASCII symbols to generate the screen display. On the CTC, TWC, and loco simulator you can set up your own route files with a little planning. The route files are not compiled. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Package: Train Dispatcher Web Site: http://www.usaor.net/signal/train/ Evaluation: Train Dispatcher is on heck of a simulation and it really keeps you going. It like going to work at the chief dispatcher's chair for the NE corridor. I think a laptop screen would be too small as you would have to shift between districts. The idal situation would be a 17 or 20 in monitor and 1280 resolution. I use a svga and still shift between districts. If you have 1024 or 1280 res for you laptop, this program will keep you busy for many hours. This game really does need a high resolution screen though. To see the entire division requires 1280x1024. Also for my taste, it was too mouse intensive - it really needed a keyboard commandline interface. Advantages of this game, Good operational simulation, lots of trains, complex 4 ML wide trackage. Random scheduling makes playing Friday and Saturday more challenging each time (game is tougher later in the work week, just like the real thing). No flexability. Certainly the NECorridor is challenging but there are other territories that are just as frustrating. The old version of this program allowed customized territories, sadly missing in this version. New version is more realistic than the NE corridor simulation. It uses train symbols as tracking ID's and the display can be changed from black on white to white on black and with the companion program, it will allow you to build any territory you want. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Package: Railroad Tycoon from MicroProse (Sid Meier author) Web Site: None Evaluation: Focuses more on the railroad as a social entity, and it's relationship to the industrialization of the country, rather than being strictly a "dispatching" type of game. One can start out in the Eastern US, Western US, England, or Western Europe back in the infancy of railroads, and it's up to you to find your initial traffic base, build on that, and expand your railroad via branch lines to new industrial sources; main lines to new cities; 'rate wars' with other railroads serving the same cities; upgrading your line with tunnels, viaducts, new motive power and trains; etc. You can even build industries such as steel mills, to feed your railroad even more traffic, if you have enough money (no ICC in this game!). Motive power and traffic sources change as time goes on. You are responsible for planning train routings, and pickups and setoffs at key industrial sites. Trains make money or not, depending how well you devise your routings and schedules. The income of your railroad as a whole is tracked, which allows you (or not) to buy new equipment, upgrade your lines, buy other railroad's stock, retire your own debt. You can play in "cutthroat" mode, where the computer plays against you and can actually have you deposed from your own railroad, via stock purchases. You 'win' based on how your railroad's bottom line compares to the railroads of three other "tycoons" that the computer controls (names like James J. Hill and Cornelius Vanderbilt). Games can be saved and continued at a later time. If I botch a strategy, I often go back to an earlier 'save' and try to rewrite history. It's a game of great challenge and depth (actually, the best thought-through computer game I've ever seen), which probably explains why it's out of production. It takes something more than a quick trigger finger to play. I wouldn't recommend playing it on a laptop, though. Once your railroad gets fairly large, a good-sized monitor is required to keep track of all the activity, plus there are a lot of palettes and 'news screens' floating around. For my money, this type of simulation beats a "model railroad simulator" such as It has really made me appreciate the intelligence and skill of giants such as J. Edgar Thomson. --------------- END OF EVALUATIONS ------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 10:34:52 -0500 From: tmahon@cfnh.com (Tom Mahon) Subject: American Model Toy Cars Content-Length: 712 Season's Greetings! Picked up three American Model Toy passenger cars in a "lot" box, baggage, coach and observation. All aluminum and set up for interior lighting with large bulbs. Anyone faniliar with these and do they bear any semblence to any PRR equipment? Thanks. Tom Mahon ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Need keyboarding help for "Keystone Crossings" Date: Tue, 9 Dec 97 12:06:09 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1850 Following several suggestions that a greater "modeling the PRR" presence is needed on the web, I've beefed up the (planned) content of my modeling page at "Keystone Crossings". One thing I already added are three excerpts from Model Railroader's "Ask MR" and "Paint Shop" departments. I have entered recent questions and responses and would like to do many more. The time consuming part, however, is keying the data in. If someone would like to go through past MR's and key in the questions and answers that are relevant to PRR modeling, I can quickly add the HTML (Web) tags and get it online. Note that these Q&As are not necessarily Pennsy only; one that I just entered referenced REA car modeling. If you are interested, take a look at one that I have already posted. Enter the data in the same format, including the issue and page it appeared on, who submitted the question, and who provided the answer. You can type it in paragraph format right in your e-mail client, then e-mail it to me...with ONLY ONE INSTANCE PER E-MAIL, please! Do not reference or key in complete PRR articles, features, car plans, etc. Let's stick to the "Paint Shop", "Ask MR", "Bull Session" and the like, first. Thanks. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: SALE - "Train Cam" for rent? Date: Tue, 9 Dec 97 14:34:26 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1209 I am contemplating purchase of an HO guage "Train Cam". This is an HO diesel with a very small camera (1 inch diameter) mounted in its nose. On board is a transmitter, which transmits the video signal up to 100 feet to a receiver. From the receiver, you can connect to a VCR, television, computer capture card, etc. You place the TrainCam diesel ahead of your own motive power and take a ride on your layout! Focal range is six inches to infinity. These run around $400. I am contemplating purchasing one for rentals. Is anyone interested in using one of these for, say, $50 a month? --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 09 Dec 97 17:00:49 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: FYI: PRR 742523 Content-Length: 756 (I think -- reporting marks rather tattered and rusty), a corrugated side gondola with "modern" PRR keystone, spotted traveling south in a long freight on Guilford/Springfield Terminal's former B&M Conn. River Line, on 4:50 pm 12/9/97, between East Deerfield and Springfield, Mass. In case anyone is interested in such things. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249 Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 18:05:36 EST Subject: PRR T&HS Chapter Content-Length: 1122 OK guys - here's the "gauntlet" how about a "CYBER" Chapter? As I recall we needed names of certain number ( 25? ) to start a Chapter -and accept a standard "Charter" to satisfy legalities (Remember that James J D Lynch really is a "Philadelphia Lawyer" ! ) In the old time "real world" we also needed to take up a collection and establish dues - to provide for mailing In this "enviroment" Chapter "Newsletter" could be e-mailed FREE and meetings held in a "Chat Room" - then - if anyone was so inclined they could run for President and become eligible for the BOT Remember that i HAVE done this once or twice before ANY INTEREST or is this just REALLY goofy ? Dick Ross ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 21:28:41 EST Subject: Re: Re Trains to Florida Content-Length: 1280 In a message dated 97-12-09 03:53:19 EST, robs@protocol.zycad.com writes: >I'm pretty sure that all of the GG1 cabs were the same-pretty darn cramped! Yes, they were! There was room for a rider to stand behind the engineman or fireman, but it was nothing like a diesel cab. >The separation of the fireman and engineer sure isn't the optimal arrangement They weren't really separated. A passageway (which was easy to walk through) connected the two sides of the cab. The engineman and fireman could easily converse, but had to twist in their seats if they wished to see each other. If the fireman passed out, it might be a while before the engineman noticed anything wrong. On the four occasions on which I rode GG-1's, the two men kept up a lively conversation--safety might have been part of the motivation for this. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 22:54:54 -0500 From: "Tom von Trott" Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter Content-Length: 1810 Sounds very interesting, there is the possiblity of a large membership, especially with low or no dues. Keep me updated, I might be interested. Tom von Trott *********** REPLY PARTITION *********** On 12/9/97, at 6:05 PM, VVA249 wrote: > OK guys - here's the "gauntlet" how about a "CYBER" Chapter? > As I recall we needed names of certain number ( 25? ) to start a Chapter >-and accept a standard "Charter" to satisfy legalities (Remember that James J >D Lynch really is a "Philadelphia Lawyer" ! ) > In the old time "real world" we also needed to take up a collection and >establish dues - to provide for mailing In this "enviroment" Chapter >"Newsletter" could be e-mailed FREE and meetings held in a "Chat Room" - then >- if anyone was so inclined they could run for President and become eligible >for the BOT Remember that i HAVE done this once or twice before > ANY INTEREST or is this just REALLY goofy ? >Dick Ross > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Wheels & Paint Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:20:06 -0500 Content-Length: 697 Does anyone know how long it has been illegal to paint wheels on railroad wheelsets? I think I'm right about the no-no of painting the wheels and axles. (probably for crack/defect detection) Regards, Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 18:57:02 -1000 From: "Eric J. Minton" Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter Content-Length: 1788 Aloha, Idea is not "goofy" but some of us "FAR" West might have a hard time with the time zones. Thanks for the Idea, I wonder how many others will be intrigued. Eric At 06:05 PM 12/9/97 EST, VVA249 wrote: > OK guys - here's the "gauntlet" how about a "CYBER" Chapter? > As I recall we needed names of certain number ( 25? ) to start a Chapter >-and accept a standard "Charter" to satisfy legalities (Remember that James J >D Lynch really is a "Philadelphia Lawyer" ! ) > In the old time "real world" we also needed to take up a collection and >establish dues - to provide for mailing In this "enviroment" Chapter >"Newsletter" could be e-mailed FREE and meetings held in a "Chat Room" - then >- if anyone was so inclined they could run for President and become eligible >for the BOT Remember that i HAVE done this once or twice before > ANY INTEREST or is this just REALLY goofy ? >Dick Ross > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:09:26 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: The Accidental Railfan (almost) Content-Length: 945 >My sister who lives in Pittsburgh got married last Saturday (it was fun >driving through the 2 feet of snow we got in Erie), and the directions >to the wedding mentioned driving through Conway. Sure enough, the >chapel is right across from Conway Yard. No time before hand to check >it out, and it was dark by the time it was over :-( Atleast I have good >directions for a future visit. >-- >Jerry Shickler ===== When you go there next summer Jerry, be sure to allow for two feet elevation difference! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bill.laird@coastalcorp.com Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 3:48:51 -0600 Subject: PRR T&HS Chapter -Reply Content-Length: 1484 I live in Texas and have no chance of becomming active in a chapter unless a CYBER Chapter was established. I am very interested in joining one, would support dues (if required), and volunteer to help in chapter activities/projects. I think it is a geat idea. Bill Laird Houston, Texas >>> "VVA249@aol.com" 12/9/97, 05:30pm wrote>>> OK guys - here's the "gauntlet" how about a "CYBER" Chapter? As I recall we needed names of certain number ( 25? ) to start a Chapter -and accept a standard "Charter" to satisfy legalities (Remember that James J D Lynch really is a "Philadelphia Lawyer" ! ) In the old time "real world" we also needed to take up a collection and establish dues - to provide for mailing In this "enviroment" Chapter "Newsletter" could be e-mailed FREE and meetings held in a "Chat Room" - then - if anyone was so inclined they could run for President and become eligible for the BOT Remember that i HAVE done this once or twice before ANY INTEREST or is this just REALLY goofy ? Dick Ross ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 07:02:57 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 2194 On 12/9/97 7:05 PM, VVA249 (VVA249@aol.com) wrote: > OK guys - here's the "gauntlet" how about a "CYBER" Chapter? Very interesting idea!!! > As I recall we needed names of certain number ( 25? ) to start a Chapter >-and accept a standard "Charter" to satisfy legalities (Remember that James J >D Lynch really is a "Philadelphia Lawyer" ! ) We have 165+ subscribers on the "PRR-Talk" list. Seems as if we hold regular meetings...24 hours a day, 365 days a year! And guess what...no dues! I can hear it now, "The 2001 convention will be hosted by the cyber chapter of the PRRT&HS". Nah, I don't think they'd go for it. Just a guess. > In the old time "real world" we also needed to take up a collection and >establish dues - to provide for mailing In this "enviroment" Chapter >"Newsletter" could be e-mailed FREE and meetings held in a "Chat Room" - then >- if anyone was so inclined they could run for President and become eligible >for the BOT Remember that i HAVE done this once or twice before Do we need a newsletter, or can does "PRR-Talk" fit that bill? I have access to a "plug-in" for my web server that allows real-time chat via the Web. The end user doesn't need anything special, other than a current version of a browser that supports frames. Wouldn't want to run it on my current 56K connection, but I am planning to increase my bandwidth in 1998. > ANY INTEREST or is this just REALLY goofy ? I'm interested; and no, it's not just "goofy". This may have real possibilities. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 06:14:20 -0600 (CST) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter -Reply Content-Length: 1300 Actually there may be enough Pennsy fans in the general Houston-Galveston area to start a small chapter. Bill Hughes, also of Galveston, is one - his grandfather worked for PRR in the Philly area. Marty at TrainSource indicated to me that there are a number of fans in the Houston area. He would be the first person to ask about real numbers of local fans. In message writes: > I live in Texas and have no chance of becomming active in a chapter > unless a CYBER Chapter was established=2E I am very interested in > joining one, would support dues (if required), and volunteer to help > in chapter activities/projects=2E > > I think it is a geat idea=2E > > Bill Laird > Houston, Texas > Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Cyber Chapter Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 08:56:44 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1821 In just the few hours since the original post was made, I think it is quite clear that there is enough interest in a "cyber" chapter of the PRRT&HS. Question is, would the PRRT&HS fight it since it is an "unusual" situation. They probably wouldn't have grounds to fight it, based on requirements for establishing a chapter, yet I'd bet they won't like it. An Internet chapter could gain a lot of power very quickly. As for my involvement, I cannot volunteer as an officer. Besides my full-time job, I have a business on the side, an infant, coach soccer, and am on the board of directors of a non-profit organization. However, I will volunteer my web programming capabilities and even offer free web site hosting for the chapter. By default, at no additional cost, the chapter could have its own subdomain (e.g.: cyberprr.dsop.com). Or, we could register a name with the InterNIC and have a custom domain served from my (or any) site. Cost is $50 per year, with first two years payable up front. (Note that this money goes to the InterNIC, not me.) I checked some time back, and "pennsy.com", "prr.com", and many others were already in use. Count me in!!! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Robert Johnston Subject: Founding a Cyber-chapter Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:07:27 -0500 Content-Length: 469 I would be very interested in this possibility. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:12:46 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter Content-Length: 666 Tom von Trott wrote: > > Sounds very interesting, there is the possiblity of a large membership, especially with low or no dues. Keep me updated, I might be interested. > It looks to me like we may already have that! Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: Re Trains to Florida Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:51:40 -0500 Content-Length: 1161 > On the four occasions on which > I rode GG-1's, the two men kept up a lively conversation--safety might > have been part of the motivation for this. _____________________ I believe cab practice on the Pennsy was that both crew would call out track signals, i.e.: "Clear!", and the other would answer "Clear" as a double check for safety. This might have been done even on engines with cab signal indicators, a kind of neat Pennsy-ish feature that made high speed running along the NE corridor just that much safer. So, if the crew were following procedure, they would be aware if each other were alert. Or so it seems to me, andrew harmantas, an SPF curretnly at C&O Milepost FM Zero. Still waiting for the trains. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:03:57 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter Content-Length: 2636 > OK guys - here's the "gauntlet" how about a "CYBER" Chapter? snip > ANY INTEREST or is this just REALLY goofy ? >Dick Ross Well...based on the replies already, I think a lot of us would go for the CYBER chapter. Some suggestions: 1) The newsletter should be seperate from PRR-talk, and should be a direct emailing of an edited form - this implies an editor and contributing authors. This mailing could be limited to "members" or sent out via PRR-talk. 2) As an official chapter, we would and should vie for the annual meeting - the only quaestion would be where physically to hold it! 3) Chapter activities could relate specifically to information services via electronic media. That is, the chapter could offer its help in maintaining the WWW page for PRRT&HS, offering electronic digests/indecies of the archives, and could publish material via the WWW when recovery of costs is no longer important. The chapter might also become involved in such projects as providing back issues of the Keystone and other PRRT&HS publications on CD ROM (Jerry?). 4) For an example of what a spontaneous on-line group can do - check out the Layout Design SIG's WWW Primer on Layout Design at: http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/LDSIGprimer/TOC.html I maintain these web pages and we continue to add to this VERY large project! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** "I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!" "Evolution is a fact, get used to it" _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |[] []| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | PENNSYLVANIA | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | _________________________ |_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:13:51 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Cyberspace Chapter of PRR-Talk Content-Length: 1593 Greetings, I am interested in forming a Cyberspace Chapter of the PRR-Talk in Franklin, Va. At the present time there will only be one member(myself)so there should be no dissent as to how this chapter will be operated. Whatever the home Chapter requires will be duly considered, as the information shared is very helpful to all. It is hoped that somewhere in the incorporation papers an allowance will be made for the use of the term "Brunswick Green" when refering to the color used on PRR locos. I will collect such dues as I see fit and use them only for the purchase of PRR equipment. All posts will be confined to the dissemination of PRR related items. At least after this one..... I solemnly promise that I will not let a day go by without having a thought about the PRR. Now on a serious note, can anyone come forth with information on the operation on the PRR line on the Eastern Shore from Philadelphia to Cape Charles. Were there any passenger trains? What type freight was carried? What type diesels were used? Did the PRR own or operate any ferries at Cape Charles? Sincerely, S.A. McCALL hosam ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 10:23:31 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 3010 On 12/10/97 10:03 AM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >1) The newsletter should be seperate from PRR-talk, and should be a direct >emailing of an edited form - this implies an editor and contributing >authors. This mailing could be limited to "members" or sent out via >PRR-talk. If separate -- which may indeed make the most sense -- it should go to members-only. That would give reason for one to join and pay dues. Since we would be a "cyber" chapter, yes, the newsletter should go out electronically. To further our "electronic" capability, once a newsletter becomes, say, a year old, we would post it to the chapter's web site for the public to see...a teaser to join. My concern would be content. What would you put in a private chapter newsletter that isn't already (or concurrently) being discussed via "PRR-Talk" or on one of our many web sites. I certainly wouldn't condone a "gag" order for those of us with web sites! > >2) As an official chapter, we would and should vie for the annual meeting >- the only quaestion would be where physically to hold it! We would probably have much difficulty in getting national approval to host a convention since most of the work would drop on one or only a few people. However, if it were doable, I'd support the "Lines Westerners". Maybe we could work out reduced fares with Amtrak to Chicago? > >3) Chapter activities could relate specifically to information services >via electronic media. That is, the chapter could offer its help in >maintaining the WWW page for PRRT&HS, offering electronic digests/indecies >of the archives, and could publish material via the WWW when recovery of >costs is no longer important. The chapter might also become involved in >such projects as providing back issues of the Keystone and other PRRT&HS >publications on CD ROM (Jerry?). Sure, something I'd like to see done anyway. > >4) For an example of what a spontaneous on-line group can do - check out >the Layout Design SIG's WWW Primer on Layout Design at: >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/LDSIGprimer/TOC.html >I maintain these web pages and we continue to add to this VERY large project! Though not contributed to lately, there's also the "Hobo's Guide to the Pennsy", a branch by branch history at http://prr.dsop.com/guide/index.html . --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 11:12:26 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1771 On 12/10/97 11:56 AM, Roger Kirkpatrick (kirkpatr@marietta.edu) wrote: >Would this chapter require dues? For what purpose? Membership in the PRR >Society? Why? I'm sure there is some chapter expense when hosting a convention. Even a minimal annual amount of $5 should be assessed. Another possibility would be that the cyber chapter could monitor eBay (online auction) and actually acquire historical Pennsy documents. The chapter could also develop a standardized module size (HO or N) which we could assemble and operate at national conventions. Each person who wants to participate can model their favorite scene on the Pennsy...no limit to locale! The reason I state "develop a standardized module" is that many say the N-track standard is to low. Also, we'd have to allow for four-track mains, not just two. We also might want the main to run down the center of the [non-end] modules so that accurate structures/scenery can be modeled on both sides of the track. N-scale allows more in a given space, obviously, but HO allows for more detailing and is more common. What do ya think? (Damned...I'm getting excited!) --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:56:11 -0500 (EST) From: Roger Kirkpatrick Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter Content-Length: 1668 I would think a cyber chapter dues might consist of filling out an e-mail form with an e-mail and, possibly, a v-mail or s-mail address, interest areas in PRR, and other RR interests or expertise. The newsletter would differ from PRR-Talk in being edited and reviewed before being published. Some high percentage of posts to all lists, including this one, are wrong, partially wrong, incomplete, opinions, trivia, SPAM, and/or poorly written and edited. I would assume that PRR-Talk would continue to flourish and would be a source of ideas and information that would lead to articles in the Cyber Chapter Newsletter. Would this chapter require dues? For what purpose? Membership in the PRR Society? Why? Cheers, Roger, member lots of RR societies! _______ S. Roger Kirkpatrick ______|_____| [ ] |___________ 927 Colegate Drive | | | | Marietta, OH 45750 | | [ ] [ ] | | | | | | Fax - 614-376-4777 |__|______________________|__| Home - 614-374-6732 O<=>O O<=>O ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Cyber-chapter thoughts Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 12:12:49 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 2095 On 12/10/97 12:28 PM, Robert A. Boyd (rboydrrs@inlink.com) wrote: >* set up the chat room so that GIF and text files could be displayed or >transferred, thus allowing show-and-tell. Jerry, whats the tech on this? A "chat room" is NOT used for this. A web or ftp site is. > >* perhaps Jerry would be interested in transferring PRR-Talk to a "Lines >Cyber" function? Jerry? No, I'm not interested in doing this. The "proposed" cyber chapter could "endorse" "PRR-Talk" as its official public mailing list, if it wishes. This is the case with my "Conrail-Talk" list which is endorsed by the Conrail Technical Society. > >* in line with that, a possible web site or FTP station should emphasize >data access. This would include modelers photos, historical materials, >show-and-tell of peoples collections, and photo tours of modern day PRR >sites. Just because it isn't painted DGLE doesn't mean no one will want >to see a photo of it! What you mention already exists..."Keystone Crossings", Mark's site, other sites... Duplication is not needed; uniqueness is! What would a cyber chapter web site that my site hasn't already at least started to address? I don't have everything online yet that I intend to, and I certainly am not going to stop adding. I can see that the need is present for such a chapter, but what are its benefits? Monthly (or weekly) chats, modular layout, possible electronic newsletter, what else? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter -Reply Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 12:23:37 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1119 On 12/10/97 1:08 PM, bill.laird@coastalcorp.com (bill.laird@coastalcorp.com) wrote: >Don't know what we would do about corner modules...... At one end, the Rockville Bridge with half the junctions at each end. That would provide a curve at each corner with a variable width straightaway to connect them. At the other end, the Horseshoe Curve, sans elevation changes. Modeling the mountains as backdrops would probably provide enough effect. (Then someone could make a Kittaning Point module.) --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 10:24:43 CST Subject: PRR videos Content-Length: 1363 Greeting, all, Just treated myself to another two PRR videos from Penn Valley - this is the Clarence Weaver material. I got "S&L story" and "Susquehanna Div" (I think that's the name). Anyway, they are the best I've ever seen -- clear 16mm footage, good lighting, the whole ten yards. The locations - the area around Northumberland - aren't as interesting to me as other parts of the PRR but for clear colorful footage of the PRR in the final steam years, these videos are GREAT. I still love Mark I Video's Pennsy tape for the footage of T-1's at speed but the Clarence Weaver stuff is a must if you love PRR steam and (like me) are too young to have seen the real thing. What are your favorites? At the price of some videos, it's nice to know ahead of time what you're getting. PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:28:46 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Cyber-chapter thoughts Content-Length: 2315 Well, it seems the idea of a cyber-chapter of the PRR HTS is receiving a ringing endorsement from the masses! I am going to toss out a few random thoughts, just to see where they might lead: * a "regular meeting" could be scheduled in a chat room specifically established on the "Lines Cyber" web site. I would suggest that this be formally done and scheduled, say, once a month so that tuning in is not an endless chore that one has to do all the time. * in line with that, schedule a "talk time" which could be set for once a week or even at a given time each night. This would not be a formal meeting, but would simply be a reference point so folks would know that the maximum attendance would be on hand for idle chatter. * set up the chat room so that GIF and text files could be displayed or transferred, thus allowing show-and-tell. Jerry, whats the tech on this? * mind you, these formal meets would not be a restriction on dropping in any old time. It would merely be to give everyone a focal point. * perhaps Jerry would be interested in transferring PRR-Talk to a "Lines Cyber" function? Jerry? * a thing to consider is that there are a great many people who cannot get to a PRR SIG meeting because they live in Outer Mongolia or some such. While a majority of PRR folk will live in PRR territory, there are a lot who are interested, but just can't access. A cyber-SIG would solve the location problem; which is why I suspect this is the wave of the future. * in line with that, a possible web site or FTP station should emphasize data access. This would include modelers photos, historical materials, show-and-tell of peoples collections, and photo tours of modern day PRR sites. Just because it isn't painted DGLE doesn't mean no one will want to see a photo of it! All right: shot my face off: out of ammo. Next? ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MCrim1361 Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:43:25 EST Subject: Cyber Chapter Content-Length: 550 For one of the best ideas yet . . . COUNT ME IN. Marvin Crim, Anderson, Indiana ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: light building color Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:02:00 -0600 Content-Length: 670 Following up a previous post wherein I gave my personal mix for this, 50%PollyScale reefer white and 50% PollyScale military color khaki, the number khaki is 500060. There is another khaki with very different and inappropriate tint. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bill.laird@coastalcorp.com Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:08:14 -0600 Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter -Reply Content-Length: 1596 >>> "jerry@dsop.com" 12/10/97, 10:29am wrote>>> >The chapter could also develop a standardized module >size (HO or N) which we could assemble and operate at >national conventions. Each person who wants to participate >can model their favorite scene on the Pennsy........ Great idea Jerry. Perhaps we should develop very similar module standards (height, width, length, electrical bus, etc. identical) for both HO and N. It would then be and individual modeler's choice as to weither to lay HO or N track. With a little thought we might even be able to come up with a standard for a universal module, HO and N track on the same module separated by a senic break. Perhaps something like this. +----------------------------------+ |==================================| |==================================| | N scale side | |-------- senic break -------------| | HO scale side | |==================================| |==================================| +----------------------------------+ Don't know what we would do about corner modules...... Bill Laird Houston, Texas ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Cyber Chapter Poll Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 13:10:05 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1260 Aw right...now you dunnit! I've created an online Web poll (a la Guest Book style) at "Keystone Crossings" which asks the question "Should we create a 'cyber' chapter of the PRRT&HS"? You can find it at http://prr.dsop.com/poll1/poll1.html . Please complete the couple of questions that are there. It asks for your name, e-mail address, city/state (country), general thoughts, and desired activities/benefits. This format allows for each reader to review what others have said and also allows us to print it out for presenting to the PRRT&HS for potential approval. The power of the 'net...Just Do It!!!! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Cyber Chapter Poll Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 13:18:29 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1070 Now you've dun it! See http://prr.dsop.com/poll1/poll1.html for an online (Guest Book style) poll about your thoughts on a cyber chapter of the PRRT&HS. The poll asks for your name, e-mail address, city/state (country), general comments, and desired benefits / activities. This format allows readers to see each other's comments and also allows for printing the page for presentation to the PRRT&HS as a testament to the need for such a chapter. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bill.laird@coastalcorp.com Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:21:47 -0600 Subject: Cyber-chapter thoughts -Reply Content-Length: 1258 >>> "rboydrrs@inlink.com" 12/10/97, 10:51am wrote>>> * a "regular meeting" could be scheduled in a chat room specifically established on the "Lines Cyber" web site. I would suggest that this be formally done and scheduled, say, once a month so that tuning in is not an endless chore that one has to do all the time. I like the monthly frequency. Perhaps an e-mail notice sent out via PRR-Talk a week prior to remind members to attend and another reminder a day or two prior to the meeting with a meeting agenda. What should be done about a universally acceptable meeting time considering a membership spread out over multiple time zones. There is nothing preventing the Cyber Chapter from becomming international. Bill Laird Houston, Texas (currently in London but headed home tomorrow!) ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:02:16 EST Subject: Re: PRR T&HS cyber Chapter Content-Length: 2716 By Jove, I think we've got IT!. An interest in cyber space is what unites this group of SPFs (REmember the S is for serIous))and would serve as a knowledge, experience, technological base to insure the PRRT&HS has an online presence thee quality and content of which is comperable to "The Keystone" in print. Howver, with potential Cybers Chapter members spread from Florida to Hawaii,I think there iss still a need to organize local chapters. If the Cyber chapter is sucessful, members will probably begin gravitating to other members living near by. Since my impertinence sparked this thread, I've been contacted by three individuals living in western Ohio or Eastern Indiana who want to get together.Establishing this type of contact whould also be a mission and goal of the Cyber chapter. Ideally a successful cybeer cchapter could result in a number of new local chapters. About the name. Conside Bob Boyd's suggestion a couple of Days ago: "The 'P' Co." (I believe thatt "ThePennsylvania Co. is still an active corporation under the control off Penn Central Corp.) After all, Broad Street formed the 'P" Co. to managee its properties that extended beyond Pennsylvania and Cyber space definitely fits the bill. In the spirit of intracommunal harmony, I'd strongly suggest that any new chapters formedd use Pennsy Neutral names ala NMRA regionas. The PRRT&HS is for all of the Standard railroad of the World, fRom Sodus Pt, NY, to Sunnyside Yard,, Cape May, Cape Charles, Rosslyn., Va, Winchester, Va.,, Cumberland, Md., Wheeling, Va., Marietta, Ohio; Cincinnati, Louisville, Vincennes, Ind., St. Louis, Keokuk, Iowa (1890-1927); Peoria, Ill., (after 1927); Chicago, Muskegon, Mich., Mackinaw City, Mich.; Detoit, Sanducky, Ohio, lorain, Ohio (1913-1923); Cleveland, Ashtabula, Ohio; Erie, Pa.; and Buffalo. and alt the 20,000+ miles of track that connected them. Interests of a more specific nature such as specific subsidiaries or special intersts such as motive power, cabin cars, M-O-W should be the province of inter-chapter SIGS. I'll help wsith the brass tacks getting this thing off the ground, Hopefully, the Cyber chapter at sometime in the future will be down graded to a SIG as a network of localchapters appears. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:42:54 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Re Trains to Florida Content-Length: 1790 Harmantas, Andrew G. wrote: > _____________________ > I believe cab practice on the Pennsy was that both crew would call out > track signals, i.e.: "Clear!", and the other would answer "Clear" as a > double check for safety. This might have been done even on engines with > cab signal indicators, a kind of neat Pennsy-ish feature that made high > speed running along the NE corridor just that much safer. So, if the > crew were following procedure, they would be aware if each other were > alert. Or so it seems to me, andrew harmantas, an SPF curretnly at C&O > This is SOP for virtually ALL railroads and is frequently done by / required of all qualified employees who may be in the cab and in a position to observe signals. In practice and per rules it may vary whether signals are called by name, by color, or whatever. A few examples: PRR, 1925, 1956; B&M, 1961; Uniform Code (CN, CP, C&O, NYC, & others,, 1962, Rule 34, ".. by its name.." NYC, 1956, Rule 33, "..the indication.." Rule 33a, further specifies calling signals by color, giving the position as appropriate, as, "middle light," lower arm," etc., when other than the upper head is cleared. General Code, 1980,(BN, CNW, etc.), Rule 34 says to call signals by name or aspect (appearance). Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:49:04 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter Content-Length: 1085 Greetings to the group, I too like the idea of our group being a chapter. However, to prevent problems with the "powers that be" within the PRR T&HS, I would think that only paid up 'official' PRR T&HS members would be the only ones allowed in the chapter. This would probably need to be the case especially if one of the objective is to have some "chapter power" and getting chapter members on the board. On a positive note, I agree with the electronic newsletter. Might I suggest the file format be Acrobat PDF. The reader is free and the newsletter would look the same no matter what machine or software you have. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Jim Hudson" Subject: PRR on Delmarva (was Cyberspace Chapter of PRR-Talk) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:51:42 -0000 Content-Length: 5001 <> Now, you've done it -- you're going to get me rambling. :) In addition to answering your questions, I've included a brief history of the line as well. 1) Yes, there were passenger trains -- the most prestigious of which were the daylight Del-Mar-Va Express and the nightime Cavalier. Both trains had connections with New York. Much of the passenger business came from sailors on leave from Norfolk heading North or business/leisure travellers heading South. Passenger service was cut back to Delmar (a Salisbury suburb) in 1958, and even that was discontinued in 1965. 2) There was a great deal of bridge freight to and from the south. Outbound local traffic included lumber, peaches, strawberries, chickens, oysters, fish, crabs, milk, tomatoes, and canned foods. Inbound traffic included autos, machinery, coal, and other finished goods. 3) Twentieth century steam power was provided by Americans and Atlantics in the first two decades. Later the B6s, H9s, K4s, and L1s made up the backbone of the fleet. Early diesels were Alco RS-3s, EMD F-3s and F-7s, Baldwin Sharks, and many Baldwin switchers. The RS-3s were used extensively in both freight and passenger service. Various EMD Geeps replaced the first generation diesels in the Conrail years, and today you can see anything from a GP38 in local service to widenose SDs on coal trains. (Incidently, if you're a caboose fan, the Conrail local out of Delmar still uses one daily due to the large amount of switching. 4) Yes, the Pennsy operated both passenger steam boats and car ferries between Cape Charles and Norfolk. At one time Cape Charles was a twenty-four hour terminal with several car ferries leaving a day. Today, the Eastern Shore Railroad still operates a Cape Charles-Norfolk car ferry, but there's only one a day in each direction. 5) Here's a summary of the line's history-- please note it only covers the north-south main line -- there were also several branches and an east-west main line as well (complete with ferries to Baltimore). The Delaware Railroad was completed down to the Maryland-Delaware state line in 1859. The Delaware Railroad had been under the control of the Philadelphia, Wilmington & Baltimore since 1856 (hence PRR control in 1881). A second company, the Eastern Shore Railroad completed a road from the Delaware Railroad terminus to Salisbury in 1860, but construction further south was postponed until after the Civil War. (Incidently, as was most of the Eastern Shore, Salisbury was very pro-Southern and the Union Army used the railroad to occupy the city immediately after hostilities ensued). A third company, the New York, Philadelphia & Norfolk completed a line from the Eastern Shore RR south to Cape Charles, Virginia on August 18, 1884. That same year the NYP&N purchased the Eastern Shore Railroad and the following year began operating car ferries to Norfolk.. At this point, the PRR began to assume direct control of the lines. In 1918 the Pennsy formally leased the Delaware railroad after controlling it for several years. The PRR likewise gained a controlling interest in the NYP&N in 1906 and leased the line in 1922. At this point, the PRR was either in direct or indirect control of every rail line on the Shore. The Delmarva Division of the railroad never became one of the Pennsy's most profitable routes (it had been envisioned to become an alternative gateway to the South, bypassing the Baltimore-Washington congestion). It was, however, profitable. The entire mainline was double-tracked in the early part of the century. Due to dwindling post-war traffic, however, the second track was removed from most areas in the 1950s. So the lines continued, deteriorating (like everywhere else) during the Penn Central days due to law maintenance. When the USRA did a study in 1974 of profitable lines to include in Conrail, only the mainline as far south as Pocomoke (and a 30+ mile branch to a power-generating plant) was included in the system. South of Pocomoke the line (including the car ferry operation) is currently operated by the Eastern Shore Railroad. As a sidelight, under the NS-CSX splits, Delmarva lines go to NS -- wonder if that'll affect the car ferry? ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:53:16 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: heading home to Texas Content-Length: 547 >Bill Laird >Houston, Texas (currently in London but headed home tomorrow!) ===== What train are you taking, Bill? ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W.C. Knepper" Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:55:54 -0500 Content-Length: 2232 Dick, What you say has merit.......If it was set up as a chapter for those who are displaced away from a metropolitan area, and access to such a group........The National just might go for it. As long as it wasn't set up as an allian type group.......Another words work the issues just like a chapter does today. And not become a thorn to the National, but prove you worth to them.......And I know that the people here on PRR-Talk could do that hands down. W.C.Knepper (boxcar46@nfdc.net) ---------- > From: VVA249 > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: PRR T&HS Chapter > Date: Tuesday, December 09, 1997 6:05 PM > > OK guys - here's the "gauntlet" how about a "CYBER" Chapter? > As I recall we needed names of certain number ( 25? ) to start a Chapter > -and accept a standard "Charter" to satisfy legalities (Remember that James J > D Lynch really is a "Philadelphia Lawyer" ! ) > In the old time "real world" we also needed to take up a collection and > establish dues - to provide for mailing In this "enviroment" Chapter > "Newsletter" could be e-mailed FREE and meetings held in a "Chat Room" - then > - if anyone was so inclined they could run for President and become eligible > for the BOT Remember that i HAVE done this once or twice before > ANY INTEREST or is this just REALLY goofy ? > Dick Ross > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:28:09 -0500 Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter From: carl-vic-vogel@juno.com (Carl K Vogel) Content-Length: 1416 Dick: Please explain more about the chat room. Do we need more than Juno to participate? Are people interested? Oh...and I lessoned learned recently...always say Guys and Gals. There are women that participate in this forum. On "Big Trains", someone left out the "Gals". Well...it wasn't pretty. Thanks, Carl K.Vogel Recently Reinstated Chief Engineer Taunton & Tuckerton Railway O > As I recall we needed names of certain number ( 25? ) to start a >Chapter > > ANY INTEREST or is this just REALLY goofy ? >Dick Ross > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", >a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html >. >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:30:55 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: cyber PRR t&hs Content-Length: 1088 hi folks... this is in reference to Tom V s letter... It may be since there is such a geographical spead of folks a good idea to form some groups within the group to be of best interest to all. I guess what part would be up to the member. perhaps this could be set up similar to the way the PRR had their divisions..but with some changes to accomodate folks in places like hawaii and such (did the PRR have agencies in states out side of its territory?) also look around and see if any other rail groups have done this... if so we can profit from their past mistakes and progress... H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:13:29 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter Content-Length: 1507 VVA249 wrote: > > OK guys - here's the "gauntlet" how about a "CYBER" Chapter? > As I recall we needed names of certain number ( 25? ) to start a > Chapter > -and accept a standard "Charter" to satisfy legalities (Remember that > James J > D Lynch really is a "Philadelphia Lawyer" ! ) > In the old time "real world" we also needed to take up a > collection and > establish dues - to provide for mailing In this "enviroment" Chapter > "Newsletter" could be e-mailed FREE and meetings held in a "Chat Room" > - then > - if anyone was so inclined they could run for President and become > eligible > for the BOT Remember that i HAVE done this once or twice before > ANY INTEREST or is this just REALLY goofy ? > Dick Ross > Hi Dick! It may be a little goofy but I LIKE IT! It sure beats me trying to start an Indianpolis chapter, and Tom V. trying to start a XENIA chapter. I would lay 3-1 odds the BOT will NOT like it, but it is worth the effort. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:26:13 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter Content-Length: 1057 I want to address on item. > 2) As an official chapter, we would and should vie for the annual > meeting > - the only quaestion would be where physically to hold it! > It could be held physically at any location -- even Philadelphia, but with the expertise I have seen in this group, perhaps it could be "virtually" online at the same time with RealVideo or something similar. Good things come one step at a time. Let's start with forming then chapter. A lot of work to get it off the ground before we go for hosting a convention. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:32:50 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter Content-Length: 1401 Jerry_Britton wrote: > > The chapter could also develop a standardized module size (HO or N) > which > we could assemble and operate at national conventions. Each person who > wants to participate can model their favorite scene on the Pennsy...no > limit to locale! > > The reason I state "develop a standardized module" is that many say > the > N-track standard is to low. Also, we'd have to allow for four-track > mains, not just two. We also might want the main to run down the > center > of the [non-end] modules so that accurate structures/scenery can be > modeled on both sides of the track. > > N-scale allows more in a given space, obviously, but HO allows for > more > detailing and is more common. What do ya think? (Damned...I'm getting > excited!) I am probably the lone "O" gauge HiRailer in the group. I would say go with N scale. My wife does N scale. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:59:18 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: PRR T&HS cyber Chapter Content-Length: 3879 LINESWEST wrote: > > By Jove, I think we've got IT!. > > An interest in cyber space is what unites this group of SPFs > (REmember the S > is for serIous))and would serve as a knowledge, experience, > technological base > to insure the PRRT&HS has an online presence thee quality and content > of which > is comperable to "The Keystone" in print. YES, we can do it! > Howver, with potential Cybers Chapter members spread from Florida to > Hawaii,I think there iss still a need to organize local chapters. If > the Cyber > chapter is sucessful, members will probably begin gravitating to other > members > living near by. Most of us are not in CYBERSPACE just because of where we live. As I recall, several PRRT&HS members stated they were active in multiple chapters. If a CENTRAL INDIANA chapter forms, I would tend to remain active in the CYBER chapter. The CYBER activities can happen when it is convenient for me. I might well partiicpate in both, but I would not want to give up the CYBER. > Since my impertinence sparked this thread, I've been contacted by > three > individuals living in western Ohio or Eastern Indiana who want to get > together.Establishing this type of contact whould also be a mission > and goal > of the Cyber chapter. Ideally a successful cybeer cchapter could > result in a > number of new local chapters. SURE!! I look forward to the Madison outing! That does not mean I will stop EMAILING. > About the name. Conside Bob Boyd's suggestion a couple of Days ago: > "The 'P' > Co." (I believe thatt "ThePennsylvania Co. is still an active > corporation > under the control off Penn Central Corp.) After all, Broad Street > formed the > 'P" Co. to managee its properties that extended beyond Pennsylvania > and Cyber > space definitely fits the bill. > > In the spirit of intracommunal harmony, I'd strongly suggest that any > new > chapters formedd use Pennsy Neutral names ala NMRA regionas. The > PRRT&HS is > for all of the Standard railroad of the World, fRom Sodus Pt, NY, to > Sunnyside > Yard,, Cape May, Cape Charles, Rosslyn., Va, Winchester, Va.,, > Cumberland, > Md., Wheeling, Va., Marietta, Ohio; Cincinnati, Louisville, Vincennes, > Ind., > St. Louis, Keokuk, Iowa (1890-1927); Peoria, Ill., (after 1927); > Chicago, > Muskegon, Mich., Mackinaw City, Mich.; Detoit, Sanducky, Ohio, lorain, > Ohio > (1913-1923); Cleveland, Ashtabula, Ohio; Erie, Pa.; and Buffalo. and > alt the > 20,000+ miles of track that connected them. Our friends in Houston may not be able to fit this mold. Interest in the PRR extends beyond the old physical boundries. PRR-Texas has a nice ring, but if the Houston chapter forms they will pick their own name. I like PRR-CYBER. > Interests of a more specific nature such as specific subsidiaries or > special > intersts such as motive power, cabin cars, M-O-W should be the > province of > inter-chapter SIGS. > I'll help wsith the brass tacks getting this thing off the ground, > Hopefully, the Cyber chapter at sometime in the future will be down > graded to > a SIG as a network of localchapters appears. > > Tom V. I will not mind working with SIGs from other chapters -- provided they have an interest. My PRR interests are very broad at this time. I have so much to learn. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:02:50 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter Content-Length: 1474 Drew McGhee wrote: > > Greetings to the group, > > I too like the idea of our group being a chapter. However, to prevent > problems with the "powers that be" within the PRR T&HS, I would think > that > only paid up 'official' PRR T&HS members would be the only ones > allowed in > the chapter. This would probably need to be the case especially if one > of > the objective is to have some "chapter power" and getting chapter > members on > the board. I think everybody assumed this. It is good to have it stated and in the open. > On a positive note, I agree with the electronic newsletter. Might I > suggest > the file format be Acrobat PDF. The reader is free and the newsletter > would > look the same no matter what machine or software you have. Also a good idea. I would suggest the uet to be formed CYBER chapter buy a copy of Adobe Acrobat software for the yet to be named editor. > > Drew R. McGhee > Altoona, PA > -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:20:28 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: Cyber-chapter thoughts Content-Length: 2897 Jerry Britton wrote: > > On 12/10/97 12:28 PM, Robert A. Boyd (rboydrrs@inlink.com) wrote: > > >* set up the chat room so that GIF and text files could be displayed > or > >transferred, thus allowing show-and-tell. Jerry, whats the tech on > this? > > A "chat room" is NOT used for this. A web or ftp site is. > > > >* perhaps Jerry would be interested in transferring PRR-Talk to a > "Lines > >Cyber" function? Jerry? > > No, I'm not interested in doing this. The "proposed" cyber chapter > could > "endorse" "PRR-Talk" as its official public mailing list, if it > wishes. > This is the case with my "Conrail-Talk" list which is endorsed by the > Conrail Technical Society. > > > >* in line with that, a possible web site or FTP station should > emphasize > >data access. This would include modelers photos, historical > materials, > >show-and-tell of peoples collections, and photo tours of modern day > PRR > >sites. Just because it isn't painted DGLE doesn't mean no one will > want > >to see a photo of it! > > What you mention already exists..."Keystone Crossings", Mark's site, > other sites... Duplication is not needed; uniqueness is! What would a > cyber chapter web site that my site hasn't already at least started to > address? I don't have everything online yet that I intend to, and I > certainly am not going to stop adding. > > I can see that the need is present for such a chapter, but what are > its > benefits? Monthly (or weekly) chats, modular layout, possible > electronic > newsletter, what else? > > --------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > Progressive Information Technologies > britton@pit-magnus.com > http://www.pit-magnus.com > 1 JPEG = 1K words Jerry, as always you raise interesting questions and ideas. I LIKE what you have done with KC. I do not believe the CYBER chapter needs to reinvent things. You have offered a lot. Let us see how incorporating a chapter would leverage things. I think we can expand things a bit, but lets think it through. I can see no way PRR-CYBER DIVISION would be cut off from KC. I would want ultra strong ties. Jerry has already done much of the work! Several other web sites could also be tied in. Perhaps www.prrcyber.org (or whatever) would be a members only site. Perhaps not. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:44:52 -0500 Content-Length: 2153 Go with gage 1, live steam! An Astor K4s sure would be impressive! -----Original Message----- From: Larry P. Morgan To: Jerry_Britton Cc: PRR-Talk Date: Wednesday, December 10, 1997 10:21 PM Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter >Jerry_Britton wrote: >> >> The chapter could also develop a standardized module size (HO or N) >> which >> we could assemble and operate at national conventions. Each person who >> wants to participate can model their favorite scene on the Pennsy...no >> limit to locale! >> >> The reason I state "develop a standardized module" is that many say >> the >> N-track standard is to low. Also, we'd have to allow for four-track >> mains, not just two. We also might want the main to run down the >> center >> of the [non-end] modules so that accurate structures/scenery can be >> modeled on both sides of the track. >> >> N-scale allows more in a given space, obviously, but HO allows for >> more >> detailing and is more common. What do ya think? (Damned...I'm getting >> excited!) > >I am probably the lone "O" gauge HiRailer in the group. >I would say go with N scale. My wife does N scale. > >-- >Larry Morgan >lpmorgan@iquest.net >Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) >TCA/TTOS > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:54:48 -0600 From: Sample Subject: PRR at Madison Indiana Content-Length: 1840 Tom V. My name is Eric and I have hauted the PRR lines in Indiana for a number of years. When Larry and you visit Madison Indiana notice the short area that the railroad had to use at the bottom of the hill. I've been told by long time Madison In. residents that all trains had to be push up the hill and that during the fall of the year that the tracks on the hill became almost impassable due to wet leaves on the track. The steam engin that was first used on this hill is in the Childrens Museum at Indianapolis. My grandfather was station master at Edwinburg on the PRR line to Louisville from Indianapolis. My other grandfather worked in the shops at Logansport. While I live in Texas, close to Galveston Texas. I would enjoy talking with you about the many things that I have seen in my travels. I have some pictures of the Madison Hill when I visited the site. Also if interested check out the State Park at Madison. There was an attempt to build a down hill line through the area of the park. You can still see the tunnel that was started for this line. Park ranges should be able to help with more information about this. Ps There is a good Inn at the park if you are staying overnight at Madison. In 85 there was a good model shop about two miles East of North Madison on the street that passes the electric company building. Sincerely, Eric janeric@infocom.net ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:02:11 -0600 From: Bob Webber Subject: Re: heading home to Texas Content-Length: 635 At 04:53 PM 12/10/97 -0600, Robert A. Boyd wrote: >>Bill Laird >>Houston, Texas (currently in London but headed home tomorrow!) > >===== > >What train are you taking, Bill? > > Probably pulled by a U-Boat ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVPedro Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:30:32 EST Subject: DELMARVA Content-Length: 877 S.A. McCALL hosam, asks for info on PRR service on the DELMARVA line To answer your questions regarding trains on Delmarva. Many passanger trains went through to New York. City The Fleet leader was the Cavalier, with overnight Pullman service to Norfolk. The line did a good business with bodies out of the mortuary at the air base in DOVER. Diesel power was GE road switchers, with train phone antennas.. I have no recollection of fright mix.. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:55:26 -0500 (EST) From: Roger Kirkpatrick Subject: Re: heading home to Texas Content-Length: 1712 Isn't the tunnel reopened? Or am I missing something? Will you be in Cabin Car Class? Roger _______ S. Roger Kirkpatrick ______|_____| [ ] |___________ 927 Colegate Drive | | | | Marietta, OH 45750 | | [ ] [ ] | | | | | | Fax - 614-376-4777 |__|______________________|__| Home - 614-374-6732 O<=>O O<=>O On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Bob Webber wrote: > At 04:53 PM 12/10/97 -0600, Robert A. Boyd wrote: > >>Bill Laird > >>Houston, Texas (currently in London but headed home tomorrow!) > > > >===== > > > >What train are you taking, Bill? > > > > > Probably pulled by a U-Boat > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 11 Dec 97 08:11:00 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: heading home to Texas Content-Length: 2777 --====54545154575648545250===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" More likely, a Shark. Bob Webber wrote: >At 04:53 PM 12/10/97 -0600, Robert A. Boyd wrote: >>>Bill Laird >>>Houston, Texas (currently in London but headed home tomorrow!) >> >>===== >> >>What train are you taking, Bill? >> >> >Probably pulled by a U-Boat > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====54545154575648545250===1 Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:50:13 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: PRR-MOdular Content-Length: 5961 >The reason I state "develop a standardized module" is that many say the >N-track standard is to low. Also, we'd have to allow for four-track >mains, not just two. We also might want the main to run down the center >of the [non-end] modules so that accurate structures/scenery can be >modeled on both sides of the track. > >N-scale allows more in a given space, obviously, but HO allows for more >detailing and is more common. What do ya think? (Damned...I'm getting >excited!) Oh boy, I'm excited too. Count me in right away! I built a module base this weekend, and I'm trying to decide what to put on it - probably a line side scene on a double track portion of the Columbia and Port Deposit branch. I too vote for HO, and suggest that we consider a PRR-talk modular group asap. This could be folded into the CYBER Chapter later if that become a reality. I volunteer to inititially coordinate such an effort in HO (call me sucker!). I warn y'all, it would be an operating RR with procedures, schedules, etc instead of just running trains in circles. Lets cut to the chase - email me if you're interested. We need a forum to arrange "meets", we need standards, we need module lists. I will keep this as organized as I can with web page lists of module names, specs, contacts etc. I suggest we use a standard subject line "PRR-MOdular" for any further communications on this list. My suggested standards are: 1) 2" seperation between tracks 2) code 83 rail 3) 32-36" min radius curves 4) both rails wired - both DC and DCC control possible (I prefer DCC but...) 5) employ FREMO like standards with standard modules of 2 foot by 4 foot, BUT allow other sizes, and have a standard end profile, so that any module will fit with any other. (see http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/shipmill/inhalt.htm) 6) 2 track and 4 track main modules - tracks centered (2 track at 11" and 13", 4 track at 9",11",13" and 15" from the face board) 7) switching opportunities - sidings, yards 8) support for catenary on some modules - I have some ideas on how to interconnect modular catenary 9) Provisions for GRADES (and helper districts) 10) Set an era - 1952? steam-diesel-electrics or set multiple eras? 11) 2 and 4 track 90 degree curved modules - to be owned by the group? 12) 2 and 4 track junction modules - to be owned by the group? 13) Scenes to be from the PRR, or derived from the PRR (some freelancing allowed, but no fantasy dragons and dinosaurs!) For example, I am working on a city module, based heavily on the Wilmington DE station, but the station is not an exact model. 14) Prototypical signals - hopefully functional at some point! 15) Standard appearance of all fascia - size, material and color (DGLE or Tuscan?) - with a group logo (red or gold 4" PRR keystone?) on the module front, and module name, and PRR location information attached if appropriate. The arrangement of modules could be either a 4 track main with double track returns providing an oval within an oval (dogbone style), or a four track main in a large oval, with a double track branch forming a second oval, or an "oval" consisting of some 4 track main, which the splits into two seperate 2 track mains, which then rejoin to form 4 track main again. I favor the first, with the additional ideas the the double track segments could be greatly expanded, and that with the proper flyover junction modules the integrity of the direction of each track would be maintained. An example is shown below ____<________________ ________<________ | __>________________\ /________>_______ | || central work \\ _______________<_______________ // || || & storage space /\_______________<_______________/\ || ||__<________________/ \_______________>_______________/ \________<_______|| |___>__________________________________>__________________________>________| 2 track modules |flyover| 4 track modules |flyover|2 track modules In this arrangement, the 4 track segment might be open to the public on both sides (ie no back boards) whereas the 2 track segments would be open on one side. Operation would be from the PUBLIC side with walk around controllers (preferably radio/infrared). This would also facilitate interaction with the public and education about the PRR! For this, the group would need 2 flyovers, and 4 90 degree 2 track curves. Please note that multiple other curves could be acommodated, such as a bend in the 4 track region and other curves in the 2 track region. One track main with passing sidings could also be substituted into the 2 track region for a little extra spice!!! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** "Illegitimi non Carborundum!" _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:49:34 EST Subject: Re: Cyberspace Chapter of PRR-Talk Content-Length: 1382 In a message dated 97-12-11 04:23:44 EST, hosam@gc.net writes: << Now on a serious note, can anyone come forth with information on the operation on the PRR line on the Eastern Shore from Philadelphia to Cape Charles. THERE IS A BOOK ABOUT RAILROADS ON THE DELMARVA PENINSULA, NAME ESCAPES ME. THERE HAS ALSO BEEN A GOOD DEAL OF INFO IN THE KEYSTONE OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS. Were there any passenger trains? YES What type freight was carried? ALL KINDS, THIS WAS A BRIDGE LINE TO THE SOUTH AS WELL AS GENERATING LOCAL TRAFFIC. FOR EXAMPLE, THERE'S A BIG GENERAL FOODS PLANT IN DOVER, DE. SEE THE CT1000E ON KEYSTONE CROSSINGS FOR A LIST OF INDUSTRIES SERVED IN 1945. What type diesels were used? Did the PRR own or operate any ferries at Cape Charles? YES--UNPOWERED FLOATS (BARGES) PULLED BY TUG BOATS. ALSO STEAMERS. JOHN KEEL - sorry for the caps, but I used that to distinguish my answers from his questions. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: Delmarva Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:05:49 -0600 Content-Length: 1143 In a message dated 97-12-11 04:23:44 EST, hosam@gc.net writes: << Now on a serious note, can anyone come forth with information on the operation on the PRR line on the Eastern Shore from Philadelphia to Cape Charles. There was a very good article on Delmarva peninsula in a Trains magazine article in postwar era. Once again I will have to look it up at home,but it discussed L1's and K4s on the main, with G5 and I believe the last operations of the D16 (! :-)), with mixed train operations on the branches. 660hp Baldwins working the carferry slips. This is one operation, in addition to the Sunbury area milk runs, which this Lines West guy has been tempted to model. Regards Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:14:38 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: PRR-MOdular Content-Length: 810 Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. wrote: > > I too vote for HO, and suggest that we consider a PRR-talk modular group > asap. This could be folded into the CYBER Chapter later if that become a > reality. > Perhaps we could look into the creation of a Cyber-Model Railroad; we could operate it during meetings, assigning different job positions to various members. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: hazmats in the GG 1s (fwd) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:41:34 EST Content-Length: 1187 > >>I love the GG1's but the fly in the ointment is who would > >>want to deal with the hazmat of a 60 year old locomotive > >>and also who would want to supply 11,000 volt- 25 Hertz > >>electrical catenary? > >(Hazmat, I wonder what was in those GG1 transformers?) > >Harry W. Fitch Harry, yes indeed, the cooland of the GG1 transformers was (not contained; _was_) a polychlorinated biphenyl, i.e., a PCB. Getting rid of it was less of a problem. More of a problem (IMHO) is the prohibitive cost of re-transformerizing the GG1s to actually _run_. :-( As to 11kV 25 Hz, you can rest assured that it's _still_ being supplied. Not hard to do either primarily, or with frequency converters. At the time, was easier to design for. -- Mark D. Bej ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Lines West/modeling activities (fwd) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:01:53 EST Content-Length: 1455 > * any hobby organization will have a small percentage who do all the work, > who have always done all the work, and who will always be doing all the > work. Unfortunate but true. > Perhaps we should go a year or two before trying to hold any sort of "Lines > West" convention, and the early efforts there might be in the form of a > series of chapter meets. At least. The Pittsburgh convention had considerable Lines West material for those attending. There _was_ a Lake chapter (named after the Lake Division PRR) at one time but dissolved. It would not be difficult to create a Lines West chapter. I know of 4-5 potential members in the Cleveland area (we'll even let that PC-lover Jerry Jordak join! :-))) ), and there must be more between here and Cincinnati. I'd even be willing to have meetings alternately in Cleveland, Cinci, and Chicago. A chapter would have to exist and be well organized to be able to pull off a convention. This is NOT trivial work. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: New Keystone Is Out (fwd) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:08:34 EST Content-Length: 1330 > > Last time we had this thread, I asked a question which I'll repeat: > > When I first joined PRRT&HS (1985), there were chapters in > > Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Detroit, and Chicago. What happened > > to them? Why not try to join one (resurrecting it if necessary)? > > I realize that, unless you live in or near one of these cities, attendance > > at a chapter meeting could mean a full weekend away-from-home > > trip. But I would very much like to see active chapters, even if > > they have only a handful of members, on Lines West. > > Pittsburgh Chapter is still active, though I have not yet joined; I > believe they meet monthly in Monroeville. Correct. Someone else asked why the Pittsburgh Chapter is such a secret. Only because no one thought of, or no one volunteered, to print up a bunch of flyers and post them at railfanning locations to draw new people in. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: hazmats in the GG 1s (fwd) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:29:59 EST Content-Length: 2219 > I don't know exactly what was done for the GG-1's, but I suspect the > PCB-containing transformer cooling fluid had to be drained and replaced with > something considered less carcinogenic by the EPA, or drained and NOT > replaced. My recollection is that PCBs are _not_ carcinogenic per se. (carcinogenic = produce[s] cancer). However, they clearly _are_ teratogenic, i.e., they produce birth defects. PCBs are highly nonpolar, thereby lipid-soluble (dissolve in fat). Animals have fat in specified places, particularly fish, which have a lot of oil. Bigger fish eat smaller fish and digest the fat. The fat gets burned off during normal metabolism, swimming and all, but the PCBs are horrendously stable compounds -- they just collect and remain in the fat. Certain birds eat those fish and collect more and more PCBs in _their_ fat. And so on and so on. Finally we humans eat those largest fish (it's inefficient to catch and eat small stuff, you know) and get large doses collected over time. The primary damage is to nervous tissue: brain, spinal cord, and nerves, as these structures use this stuff called myelin as an insulator. Myelin is a fat, basically. At any rate, I did do a MedLine search on PCBs but came up with 500 papers in the last 5 years alone, and there's no way in H that I'm about to scan _that_ list! > I understand that the Paoli MU maintenance shop was declared a > 'Superfund' site, due to the contamination of the ground from so much > PCB-containing transformer fluid dumped/leaked from the MU cars. Exactly. BTW, asbestos _is_ carcinogenic. It causes a cancer called a mesothelioma in the pleural lining of the lung. -- Mark D. Bej, M.D. bejm@eeg.ccf.org (who finally gets to use his degree on this list) ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 08:54:40 -1000 From: "Eric J. Minton" Subject: Re: hazmats in the GG 1s (fwd) Content-Length: 2905 Aloha, How about using new technology to build NEW GG-1's using the designs that worked so well, remember they saw 100+ service speeds for almost 50 years. Eric At 01:29 PM 12/11/97 EST, you wrote: >> I don't know exactly what was done for the GG-1's, but I suspect the >> PCB-containing transformer cooling fluid had to be drained and replaced with >> something considered less carcinogenic by the EPA, or drained and NOT >> replaced. > >My recollection is that PCBs are _not_ carcinogenic per se. (carcinogenic >= produce[s] cancer). However, they clearly _are_ teratogenic, i.e., they >produce birth defects. > >PCBs are highly nonpolar, thereby lipid-soluble (dissolve in fat). Animals >have fat in specified places, particularly fish, which have a lot of oil. >Bigger fish eat smaller fish and digest the fat. The fat gets burned off >during normal metabolism, swimming and all, but the PCBs are horrendously >stable compounds -- they just collect and remain in the fat. Certain birds >eat those fish and collect more and more PCBs in _their_ fat. And so on >and so on. Finally we humans eat those largest fish (it's inefficient >to catch and eat small stuff, you know) and get large doses collected over >time. > >The primary damage is to nervous tissue: brain, spinal cord, and nerves, as >these structures use this stuff called myelin as an insulator. Myelin is >a fat, basically. > >At any rate, I did do a MedLine search on PCBs but came up with 500 papers >in the last 5 years alone, and there's no way in H that I'm about to scan >_that_ list! > >> I understand that the Paoli MU maintenance shop was declared a >> 'Superfund' site, due to the contamination of the ground from so much >> PCB-containing transformer fluid dumped/leaked from the MU cars. > >Exactly. > >BTW, asbestos _is_ carcinogenic. It causes a cancer called a mesothelioma >in the pleural lining of the lung. > >-- >Mark D. Bej, M.D. >bejm@eeg.ccf.org > >(who finally gets to use his degree on this list) > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Proposed PRRT&HS Cyber Chapter Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 14:55:24 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1491 Judging from the comments already left on the poll (http://prr.dsop.com/poll1/poll1.html) there is adequate interest in a "cyber" chapter of the PRRT&HS to at least look into the actual logistics of establishment. Anyone care to volunteer as point person? IMHO, it should be someone who has been a member of the PRRT&HS for several years...for political reasons. That leaves me out, as 1997 was my first year. As for benefits, I am surprised to see how popular the "chat room" concept is. As for the newsletter, my concern was content that didn't duplicate that of "The Keystone" or what's on "Keystone Crossings". Perhaps our niche would be modeling. Since the PRRT&HS itself does not promote it, it could be our "in" to get a lot more members...even those not online once word gets out. BTW, the domain "spf.com" is taken; "spfonline.com" is available. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:58:06 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: RE: GG-1 hazmats Content-Length: 1011 Mark Bej says: >At any rate, I did do a MedLine search on PCBs but came up with 500 papers >in the last 5 years alone, and there's no way in H that I'm about to scan >_that_ list! ===== Well, Gee, Mark- you ought to include them on your site. It would make a great "in depth" report on the GG 1s! Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:03:15 EST Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter Content-Length: 2069 In a message dated 97-12-11 07:03:25 EST, you write: << Also, we'd have to allow for four-track >> mains, not just two. We also might want the main to run down the >> center >> of the [non-end] modules so that accurate structures/scenery can be >> modeled on both sides of the track. >> >> N-scale allows more in a given space, obviously, but HO allows for >> more >> detailing and is more common. What do ya think? (Damned...I'm getting >> excited!) >> Aw, DURN YER GETTIN THE LINES WESTERNER IN me all riled up. Four-tracked mains for part, not all of the layout as such monster routes were mighty damn scarce west of Pittsburgh. Out here double-tracked mains were the rule and singlle-tracked mainlines were pretty common : Toledo Dvision for the entire length, Cincinnati Division between Xeia and Cincinati, and Cincinati & Richmond, and Xenia-Dayton-Richmond and many other locations. Demonstraitng that Modling the PRR does not require stringing catenary or buying limestone arch bridges by C.C. Crow orother kit of pcomemsureate price and qualllity could/ be a way to boost membership of the National PRRT&HS. And if all we have is four-tracked mains, then we won't be able to run T1s, the S1 or thje Q class because other tight curvesn found in Pittsburhgh and points east becauseof those damned tight curves. Remember, the Pennsylvania was pretty diverse despite its registered tradmark, "The Standard Railroa of the World.). We all have differing memories of what the Pennsylvania. however, the Pennsylvania was so bid that nearly al forms of railroading could be found . Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:04:47 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: speaking of the Pgh. Chapter.... Content-Length: 809 I noticed this week (yesterday) in the local community "weekly" paper my parents get, the "Progress", there was a writeup on the PRRT&HS, where the writer talked with our very own Carl Izzo; There was also a shot of him presumably with his layout(?). I'll see if I can get any copies of the article since we usually have spare copies of that paper around if anyone wants one. -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 11 Dec 97 14:16:53 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: PRR on Delmarva Content-Length: 12752 --====53565257544850575357===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Was it during the Conrail formation that N&W broached the plan to take over the Delmarva lines for access to Philadelphia? They probably dropped it, after seeing the condition of the line. -- Doug Drew W. Jim Hudson wrote: ><the Eastern Shore from Philadelphia to Cape Charles. Were there any >passenger trains? What type freight was carried? What type diesels were >used? Did the PRR own or operate any ferries at Cape Charles?>> > >Now, you've done it -- you're going to get me rambling. :) In addition to >answering your questions, I've included a brief history of the line as well. > >1) Yes, there were passenger trains -- the most prestigious of which were >the daylight Del-Mar-Va Express and the nightime Cavalier. Both trains had >connections with New York. Much of the passenger business came from sailors >on leave from Norfolk heading North or business/leisure travellers heading >South. Passenger service was cut back to Delmar (a Salisbury suburb) in >1958, and even that was discontinued in 1965. > >2) There was a great deal of bridge freight to and from the south. Outbound >local traffic included lumber, peaches, strawberries, chickens, oysters, >fish, crabs, milk, tomatoes, and canned foods. Inbound traffic included >autos, machinery, coal, and other finished goods. > >3) Twentieth century steam power was provided by Americans and Atlantics in >the first two decades. Later the B6s, H9s, K4s, and L1s made up the >backbone of the fleet. Early diesels were Alco RS-3s, EMD F-3s and F-7s, >Baldwin Sharks, and many Baldwin switchers. The RS-3s were used extensively >in both freight and passenger service. Various EMD Geeps replaced the first >generation diesels in the Conrail years, and today you can see anything from >a GP38 in local service to widenose SDs on coal trains. (Incidently, if >you're a caboose fan, the Conrail local out of Delmar still uses one daily >due to the large amount of switching. > >4) Yes, the Pennsy operated both passenger steam boats and car ferries >between Cape Charles and Norfolk. At one time Cape Charles was a >twenty-four hour terminal with several car ferries leaving a day. Today, >the Eastern Shore Railroad still operates a Cape Charles-Norfolk car ferry, >but there's only one a day in each direction. > >5) Here's a summary of the line's history-- please note it only covers the >north-south main line -- there were also several branches and an east-west >main line as well (complete with ferries to Baltimore). The Delaware >Railroad was completed down to the Maryland-Delaware state line in 1859. >The Delaware Railroad had been under the control of the Philadelphia, >Wilmington & Baltimore since 1856 (hence PRR control in 1881). > >A second company, the Eastern Shore Railroad completed a road from the >Delaware Railroad terminus to Salisbury in 1860, but construction further >south was postponed until after the Civil War. (Incidently, as was most of >the Eastern Shore, Salisbury was very pro-Southern and the Union Army used >the railroad to occupy the city immediately after hostilities ensued). > >A third company, the New York, Philadelphia & Norfolk completed a line from >the Eastern Shore RR south to Cape Charles, Virginia on August 18, 1884. >That same year the NYP&N purchased the Eastern Shore Railroad and the >following year began operating car ferries to Norfolk.. > >At this point, the PRR began to assume direct control of the lines. In 1918 >the Pennsy formally leased the Delaware railroad after controlling it for >several years. The PRR likewise gained a controlling interest in the NYP&N >in 1906 and leased the line in 1922. At this point, the PRR was either in >direct or indirect control of every rail line on the Shore. > >The Delmarva Division of the railroad never became one of the Pennsy's most >profitable routes (it had been envisioned to become an alternative gateway >to the South, bypassing the Baltimore-Washington congestion). It was, >however, profitable. The entire mainline was double-tracked in the early >part of the century. Due to dwindling post-war traffic, however, the second >track was removed from most areas in the 1950s. > >So the lines continued, deteriorating (like everywhere else) during the Penn >Central days due to law maintenance. When the USRA did a study in 1974 of >profitable lines to include in Conrail, only the mainline as far south as >Pocomoke (and a 30+ mile branch to a power-generating plant) was included in >the system. South of Pocomoke the line (including the car ferry operation) >is currently operated by the Eastern Shore Railroad. > >As a sidelight, under the NS-CSX splits, Delmarva lines go to NS -- wonder >if that'll affect the car ferry? > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====53565257544850575357===1 Subject: Arrangement of Passenger Cars in a Consist Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 15:17:59 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1082 Was there a standard way of arranging passenger cars within a consist in terms of which side the corridor side would be on? For instance, is the corridor always on the left side when you are walking forward? I know certain cars get turned at ends of a route, like observations. I also know that the NYC run from New York to Boston had no cars turned so that the bedroom windows always faced the ocean. We corridors always kept on one side, or was it random? --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Jim Hudson" Subject: Re: PRR on Delmarva Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:47:01 -0000 Content-Length: 1391 Doug Drew wrote: <> The N&W, SCL, & Southern all applied to purchase the main line. It was actually the Southern that came closest to taking over the Pennsy Delmarva Lines for Philly access... The Southern REALLY wanted the lines, and the federal gov't approved the plan to sell the lines to them. They even agreed to preserve service on the non-profitable branches to get the deal approved. It fell through, however, when the operating unions refused to negotiate because they thought they'd get a better deal under government operation & Conrail. It's a pity -- the Southern might have made a better go of it. Not that I'm really complaining too much, though. Conrail did an admirable job with its resources, and traffic IS above the Penn Central years. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:52:19 EST Subject: On Ebay now: Baldwin 2,400hp Center Cab Transfer Content-Length: 1321 There's a Baldwin center cab 2,400 hp transfer diesel on sale on ebay. current askihng bid price in $102.50 (2:47 p.m. EST 12/11/97) I just looked this un it up in "The Diesel Builders, Volume Three: The Baldwin Locomtovie Works" This is a model of one of eight 2,400 hp RT-624s made by BLW between Oct. 12 and Nov. 30, `1951,given PRR road numbers 8958-8965. Each of these eight units was equipped with m.u. control, trainfone inductive "radio" system, two-station control, dynamic brakes, automattic train control. They were stationed at Conemaugh, Shire Oaks, and Johnstown, all in Pennsylvania. No information available onwhich units assigned where. I'm going to pass on this one. If I'm going to spend thsi kinda money, I'm going to make sure the model I buy was used by the PRR in western Ohiol, mainly Lima-Hamilton 2,500-h.p. transfer locos. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: PRR T&HS Chapter (fwd) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:43:09 EST Content-Length: 1742 > OK guys - here's the "gauntlet" how about a "CYBER" Chapter? > As I recall we needed names of certain number ( 25? ) to start a Chapter > -and accept a standard "Charter" to satisfy legalities (Remember that James J > D Lynch really is a "Philadelphia Lawyer" ! ) > In the old time "real world" we also needed to take up a collection and > establish dues - to provide for mailing In this "enviroment" Chapter > "Newsletter" could be e-mailed FREE and meetings held in a "Chat Room" - then > - if anyone was so inclined they could run for President and become eligible > for the BOT Remember that i HAVE done this once or twice before > ANY INTEREST or is this just REALLY goofy ? > Dick Ross I think forming a "Cyber Chapter, PRRT&HS" would be a _wonderful_ idea. Since Jerry has his own machine (I don't), we could collect some piddling amount, say $5 apiece, for memberships that would support the portion of upkeep of his machine that we actually use. The bylaws should state that _nothing_ is done on paper, save perhaps the bylaws and maybe a 'summary' of formal news and other newsletter stuff, to those that want to join but don't have a computer. Having a membership and reading reports at the society general meeting would blow some of these guys away! -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bill.laird@coastalcorp.com Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:14:01 -0600 Subject: heading home to Texas -Reply Content-Length: 1115 >>> "rboydrrs@inlink.com" 12/10/97, 05:26pm >>> >>Bill Laird >>Houston, Texas (currently in London but headed home tomorrow!) ===== >What train are you taking, Bill? ===== The Gatwick Expresss, non-stop from Victoria Station to Gatwick Airport. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter (fwd) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:20:02 EST Content-Length: 1286 > I too like the idea of our group being a chapter. However, to prevent > problems with the "powers that be" within the PRR T&HS, I would think that > only paid up 'official' PRR T&HS members would be the only ones allowed in > the chapter. This would probably need to be the case especially if one of > the objective is to have some "chapter power" and getting chapter members on > the board. We'd have to do this, methinks. > On a positive note, I agree with the electronic newsletter. Might I suggest > the file format be Acrobat PDF. The reader is free and the newsletter would > look the same no matter what machine or software you have. Might I suggest not? I don't like "corporate" solutions to things, no matter how "open" they may be. I would much prefer HTML, which is _not_ owned by a company and is free to all forever. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:40:54 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: PRR on the Eastern Shore Content-Length: 2321 Greetings, Have done some research today, with some books I have and a friend who models the PRR. Here is some of what I have discovered about diesel engine assignments on the Eastern Shore or the Chesapeake Region. The engines were stationed in Wilmington, Delaware. Alco RS1 #5906 built 1948 PRR class AS-10s. This engine had steam generators but no trainphone. Alco Rs3 #8443 & #8444 built 1953 PRR class AS-16ms. These engines had steam generators, were MU equipped but had no trainphones. Alco RS3 #8473 & #8474 built 1952 Prr class As-16ms. Both engines had steam generators, were Mu equipped but only #8474 had a trainphone. Alco RS3 #8476,#8477 & #8478 built 1952 PRR class AS-16ms. All had steam generators & Mu equipment. #8476 ℝ han trainphones, #8478 did not. Alco RS3 #8595 built 1955 PRR class AS-16m. This engine had dynamic brakes and trainphones but no steam generator. Was reassigned to the Pittsburgh District in 1960. All the above engines were in service at the time of the merger and were transferred to PC. No Alco Rs11's were assigned to the Chesapeake region. There were 5 RSD5's assigned to the Chesapeake Region but were used in switching service in Wilmington and Baltimore. All were transferred to PC. All these units were painted Brunswick Green(DGLE) wuth Pennsylvania spelled out on the long hoods, road numbers on cab below the window. All were renumbered in 1966 but only a few were repainted and given a Keystone on the long hood. There were a group of Baldwin Switchers used around Cape Charles moving the cars onto and off of the ferryboats. As soon as I get the research done I'll post this data. A quick look at a timetable revealed 3 passenger trains daily and 3 passenger trains at night. More on them later......... Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:06:42 -0500 From: bobsin@nac.net Subject: Re: hazmats in the GG 1s Content-Length: 755 It's been noted that Paoli has a Superfund site due to PCB contamination. Last time I had my eyes open, the yard at South Amboy where GG1s used to sit (the engine change point and end of electrification on the NY&LB) was fenced off and placarded as a contaminated area. Probably the same problem(s) as Paoli. John Bobsin ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 20:13:29 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: new GG-1s?! Content-Length: 2515 And Eric Minton asks: >How about using new technology to build NEW GG-1's using the designs that >worked so well, remember they saw 100+ service speeds for almost 50 years. ======= That's a genuine warm and fuzzy, but sad fact is, the GG-1 concept is obsolete. Some specifics: * the 2-C+C-2 wheel arrangement was Baldwins clinging to steam era thinking. The concept was that an articulated frame would ride more smoothly than the rigid frame of the 2-D-2 R1- which turned out to be true. The only comparable technology at the time in swivel trucks were adaptations of trolley car trucks on some of the gas railcars and small switchers: not really suitable for the heavy power of a main line electric without massive reengineering. Today, of course, that engineering has been done and B-B and C-C units in the 6000 hp range are in production, which makes the ponderous frame of the GG-1 obsolete. * the curved carbody design would be very expensive: building compound curves into heavy steel sheet is time consuming and tricky. Note that the locomotive builders today use flat surfaces or single axis curves. * the traditional scissors pantagraph was a maintanance nightmare: any new electrics today would certainly be fitted with the single arm pans. Finally, with 6000 HP units available and with 110 mph + units available, it would only be a minor matter to put the two together to create an equivalent to a GG-1 in a swivel truck diesel: say a dash- whatever with larger wheels and gearing for 110+ mph. Hate to say it, but it ain't gonna happen. Here is something for the cyber-chapter to consider: howzabout restoring a GG-1 and making arrangements to have some running track somewhere in the midwest? Maybe the G-motors will reach Chicago after all! Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:07:24 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Subject: Re: PRR on Delmarva Content-Length: 903 At 10:51 PM 12/10/97 -0000, W. Jim Hudson wrote: >As a sidelight, under the NS-CSX splits, Delmarva lines go to NS -- wonder >if that'll affect the car ferry? That all depends on who owns the other end of the ferry run and how friendly they are. As I understand things, CSX is on the north side of the James River, and NS on the south. Since the other end of the ferry used to be a little west of Norfolk on the Chesapeake Bay, that means a CSX connection. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 02:12:41 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: new GG-1s?! Content-Length: 824 On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Robert A. Boyd wrote: [snip] > > Here is something for the cyber-chapter to consider: howzabout restoring a > GG-1 and making arrangements to have some running track somewhere in the > midwest? Maybe the G-motors will reach Chicago after all! Doesn't the Illinois Railway Museum (i think in union, IL), the place withthe Electroliner, have an operable GG-1? -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter (fwd) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 97 08:50:59 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1249 On 12/11/97 5:43 PM, Mark D Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote: >Since Jerry has his own machine (I don't), we could collect some piddling >amount, say $5 apiece, for memberships that would support the portion of >upkeep of his machine that we actually use. I would not have asked for money, but... My machine hosts my domain and two others. Any "income" from a cyber chapter could be used to increase bandwidth. If such a financial arrangement developed, I would be willing to not sell any additional non-railroad-related hosting services. All I want to do is break even and propogate the PRR!!! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: Re: Arrangement of Passenger Cars in a Consist Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:25:11 -0500 Content-Length: 1253 Jerry wrote: >Was there a standard way of arranging passenger cars within a consist in >terms of which side the corridor side would be on? > >For instance, is the corridor always on the left side when you are >walking forward? > Far more pragmatic than aesthetic. Servicing the consist was a big consideration so that, for example, the Broadway would normally be serviced on track x in Sunnyside and track Y in Chicago to give easier access for commissary, watering, underbody equipment (back in 'standard' days, loading blocks of ice in ice-activated AC systems was a major consideration--even into the 50's when ice-activated parlor cars were still on the New York-Washington ML). Where trains yarded was not random--a concept that both the NYC and NYNY&H also understood. Richard F. Makse maxrail@att.net ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: Arrangement of Passenger Cars in a Consist From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 97 08:34:41 -0500 Content-Length: 1465 Jerry asked: >Was there a standard way of arranging passenger cars within a consist in >terms of which side the corridor side would be on? > >For instance, is the corridor always on the left side when you are >walking forward? > >I know certain cars get turned at ends of a route, like observations. I >also know that the NYC run from New York to Boston had no cars turned so >that the bedroom windows always faced the ocean. > >We corridors always kept on one side, or was it random? > >--------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF - ------- The roomettes ruled! They were built to face one way, and the RR would try to keep them facing forward - when they cared. Different RRs had cars designed differently and therefore ther is no "rule" as to whether the corridor is oin one side or the other. The other consideration is the vestibule. If the end cars had there vestibules toward the center of the train, then a shorter platform could be used. regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:49:21 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Arrangement of Passenger Cars in a Consist Content-Length: 2073 Jerry_Britton wrote: > > Was there a standard way of arranging passenger cars within a consist in > terms of which side the corridor side would be on? > > For instance, is the corridor always on the left side when you are > walking forward? > > I know certain cars get turned at ends of a route, like observations. I > also know that the NYC run from New York to Boston had no cars turned so > that the bedroom windows always faced the ocean. > > We corridors always kept on one side, or was it random? > Jerry, The New York Central kept the room side of one-sided sleepers facing the Hudson River, at least on the Century. In general, corridor location was not a concern. Incidental to the above, lengthwise Pullman berths were always made down (their terminology) (not "up") with the berth's head toward the front of the train. Crosswise berths were, I think, made down with the head to the outside of the car. Roomette berths were made down with the head at the hinge end of the berth. Even more incidental to the above, generally speaking, when the railroads worried about those little details, dining cars always ran with the kitchen to the rear. This continued into diesel years, wherever facilities existed for the turning of cars. Obviously, turntables might have been used to turn cars if they were long enough, and if they were reasonably near the car service areas and not too busy handling locomotives. B&A trains turned in Boston were often deadheaded behind a commuter train out the Highland Branch, around the Riverside Loop, and back into Boston on the Main Line. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 12 Dec 97 09:17:50 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: Arrangement of Passenger Cars in a Consist Content-Length: 5269 --====57495556485149575755===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" I think you mean NEW HAVEN's run from NYC to Boston along the shore. The Central went there via Albany, with no ocean view. The Central, I'm told, arranged their trains so that the bedroom windows of the Pullmans faced west/south toward the Hudson and Mohawk rivers, as their main was on the east and north shores, respectively, of these scenic rivers. PRR may have had theirs arranged to face north on east-west trains, as it ran on the south bank of the scenic Juniata for most if not all of that river's length. But I have no proof of that... In the latter days of the PRR, I doubt they cared on which side the corridor lay. Jerry_Britton wrote: >Was there a standard way of arranging passenger cars within a consist in >terms of which side the corridor side would be on? > >For instance, is the corridor always on the left side when you are >walking forward? > >I know certain cars get turned at ends of a route, like observations. I >also know that the NYC run from New York to Boston had no cars turned so >that the bedroom windows always faced the ocean. > >We corridors always kept on one side, or was it random? > >--------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com >Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com >Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====57495556485149575755===1 From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: PRR on Delmarva Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:38:28 -0500 Content-Length: 1397 > As I understand things, CSX is on the north side of the James >River, and NS on the south. Since the other end of the ferry used to be a >little west of Norfolk on the Chesapeake Bay, that means a CSX connection. _________________ The present railroad car ferry slip is operated by a short/bridge line, not the CSX, and is located EAST of Norfolk at Little Creek (Norfolk is not on the ocean, but is inland a few miles). I am not certain who owns what, but I don't think CSX is a factor in the float operation. CSX is on the north side of the James River, but there is no connection to the float terminal, which is across Hampton Roads (the body of water where the Elizabeth and James Rivers meet the Chesapeake Bay, forming the the largest natural inland deep water harbour in the world). So, if NS takes over the DelMarVa line, it would be NS connection at both ends of the ferry ride, or so it seems to me, andrew harmantas, an SPF from way back. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:38:43 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: PRR at Madison Indiana Content-Length: 2236 Sample wrote: > > Tom V. > > My name is Eric and I have hauted the PRR lines in Indiana for a > number of years. When Larry and you visit Madison Indiana notice the > short area that the railroad had to use at the bottom of the hill. > I've > been told by long time Madison In. residents that all trains had to be > push up the hill and that during the fall of the year that the tracks > on > the hill became almost impassable due to wet leaves on the track. The > steam engin that was first used on this hill is in the Childrens > Museum > at Indianapolis. My grandfather was station master at Edwinburg on > the > PRR line to Louisville from Indianapolis. My other grandfather worked > in the shops at Logansport. > > While I live in Texas, close to Galveston Texas. I would enjoy > talking > with you about the many things that I have seen in my travels. I have > some pictures of the Madison Hill when I visited the site. Also if > interested check out the State Park at Madison. There was an attempt > to > build a down hill line through the area of the park. You can still > see > the tunnel that was started for this line. Park ranges should be able > to help with more information about this. > > Ps There is a good Inn at the park if you are staying overnight at > Madison. In 85 there was a good model shop about two miles East of > North Madison on the street that passes the electric company building. > > Sincerely, > > Eric > janeric@infocom.net I have been to Clifty Falls many times. My wife and I scouted Madison last fall. We noticed the short "run" before starting up the hill. We will keep you posted. Thanks for the tip about the model shop. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:57:26 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: Lines West/modeling activities (fwd) Content-Length: 1688 Mark D Bej wrote: > > > * any hobby organization will have a small percentage who do all the > work, > > who have always done all the work, and who will always be doing all > the > > work. > > Unfortunate but true. > > > Perhaps we should go a year or two before trying to hold any sort of > "Lines > > West" convention, and the early efforts there might be in the form > of a > > series of chapter meets. > > At least. > > The Pittsburgh convention had considerable Lines West material for > those > attending. > > There _was_ a Lake chapter (named after the Lake Division PRR) at one > time > but dissolved. It would not be difficult to create a Lines West > chapter. > I know of 4-5 potential members in the Cleveland area (we'll even let > that > PC-lover Jerry Jordak join! :-))) ), and there must be more between > here > and Cincinnati. I'd even be willing to have meetings alternately in > Cleveland, Cinci, and Chicago. > > A chapter would have to exist and be well organized to be able to pull > off a > convention. This is NOT trivial work. > > -- > Mark D. Bej > bejm@eeg.ccf.org Don't forget Indianapolis here! -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:59:54 EST Subject: Cyber Chapter Content-Length: 992 While we are discussing publication of a chapter newsletter in electronic form, we should not lose site of the many PRRT&HS members who are not part of the internet world but who may be interested in published information. Consideration should be given to printing even in a crude format any electronic publications. Just as the Philadelphia Chapter publishes their own newsletter, the same could be done here on a subscription basis. This will also help eliminate any concerns that the cyber chapter is not connected to the other PRRT&HS members. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Delmarva Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:50:39 -0600 Content-Length: 766 Confirming previous post, May 1947 issue of Trains had a 9 page article,entitled "Branch Line Odyssey". Described "mainline" as well as branches with mixed, doodlebugs, D16, G5, an old Baltimore & Eastern Atlantic, etc. That issue also had two other PRR items: Kiskiminitas (sp?) Junction and new Conemaugh Dam line relocation. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: hazmats in the GG 1s (fwd) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:07:47 -0600 Content-Length: 1581 Wasn't the culprit in the Love Canal incident PCB's? I sat on a plane with a woman whose son had a potential Olympic swim career cut short by the effects. BTW, PCB's have incredibly low viscosity, so a spill outside the Rome, Georgia transformer plant, wound up showing up in farmer's wells three miles away in a very short time. Also BTW(apologize for extending what some might consider somewhat off-topic for this list), I saw a reference to "ascarel" as the generic term for these transformer insulating and cooling fluids, with GE and Westinghouse trade names also listed. I seem to recall, as an Allis-Chalmers transformer guy for a brief time in the early 70s, that "Askarel" was Allis-Chalmers trade name for the similar compounds. Also, as Mark Bej so correctly states, PCB settles in the fat of the fish, which is why perch and whitefish and the lean fish from Lake Michigan are edible, while Salmon and Trout are limited by recommendation and, when I caught them and occasionally smoked and ate them, I always trimmed off the belly fat as well as the lateral line, which for some reason was also a settling place. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: PRR-MOdular Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:32:37 -0600 Content-Length: 1842 Sounds good to me as I get frustrated out here in Dairyland finding Pennsy (or even pre-1960) modelers. However, don't know when I would find time for out-of-town meets, except possibly Chicago. But I don't have time for anything, so what else is new? Comments: 1. Color. Our club layout and modular layout use Devoe Upland Green (as mentioned by Dave Barrow in MRR) as a fascia and woodwork color. Very good framing for scenery as it is a brown green. Devoe is very expensive, but I took a color chip to a Bulder's square and had it matched for half price. Danger is that is essentially olive and could perpetuate the 50-year old toy train representation of DGLE as a light green. As a compromise for that reason, I would vote for DGLE rather than tuscan. 2. You did not mention connectors (or is that included in the FREMO standards?) We use the Radio Shack (TRW-Cinch) connectors of the NMRA recommended practice. 3. Most exciting thing about the possibility is OPERATION. Selecting a prototype and an era (could have an alternative era as well) goes a long way toward that end. I am not interested in participating in another racetrack oval meet. 4. Agree with you on DCC. It is expensive, but having started with it, it is addictive and it would certainly make an OPERATIONS session on a modular layout easier than attempting conventional block control. Regards. Bob Zoeller Fox Point, WI ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 11:57:14 -0500 From: Charles Ring Subject: Re: Lines West/modeling activities (fwd) Content-Length: 1791 Larry P. Morgan wrote: > > Mark D Bej wrote: > > > > > * any hobby organization will have a small percentage who do all the > > work, > > > who have always done all the work, and who will always be doing all > > the > > > work. > > > > Unfortunate but true. > > > > > Perhaps we should go a year or two before trying to hold any sort of > > "Lines > > > West" convention, and the early efforts there might be in the form > > of a > > > series of chapter meets. > > > > At least. > > > > The Pittsburgh convention had considerable Lines West material for > > those > > attending. > > > > There _was_ a Lake chapter (named after the Lake Division PRR) at one > > time > > but dissolved. It would not be difficult to create a Lines West > > chapter. > > I know of 4-5 potential members in the Cleveland area (we'll even let > > that > > PC-lover Jerry Jordak join! :-))) ), and there must be more between > > here > > and Cincinnati. I'd even be willing to have meetings alternately in > > Cleveland, Cinci, and Chicago. > > > > A chapter would have to exist and be well organized to be able to pull > > off a > > convention. This is NOT trivial work. > > > > -- > > Mark D. Bej > > bejm@eeg.ccf.org > > Don't forget Indianapolis here! > Where does the Youngstown, Ohio area fit in? My father was a Yardmaster there. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don R. Millbranth" Subject: -OTHELLO- Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 11:27:42 -0600 Content-Length: 559 Could someone please tell me with which train the parlor/observation car "OTHELLO" saw service ? Thank you don Mile 414.5 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:36:32 EST Subject: Re: DELMARVA Content-Length: 859 As a note of interest, 'Pennsy Diesel Years, Vol. 5' by R.J. Yanosey contains a pretty good section on the Chesapeake Region of the PRR. Towns such as: Clayton, Dover, Harrington, Delmar and Royal Oak are included. Pictured power include: BS12m's, BF16's, an S12, a GP35-GP9B- GP30 mix, BS12ams, AS16ms, an RS3 and a BLH RS-12. Also included are routings to Chestertown, Cambridge, Oxford and Centreville. Regards, George ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 16:58:29 -0500 From: Brian Brooks Subject: Re: Proposed PRRT&HS Cyber Chapter Content-Length: 939 At 02:55 PM 12/11/97 -0400 Jerry wrote: > As for the newsletter, my concern was content that didn't >duplicate that of "The Keystone" or what's on "Keystone Crossings". >Perhaps our niche would be modeling. Since the PRRT&HS itself does not >promote it, it could be our "in" to get a lot more members...even those >not online once word gets out. Not a bad idea, considering that other roads (i.e. the Santa Fe) have a modeling society in addition to a historical/technical group.. Brian Brooks ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Proposed PRRT&HS Cyber Chapter (fwd) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 17:08:20 EST Content-Length: 1572 > Anyone care to volunteer as point person? IMHO, it should be someone who > has been a member of the PRRT&HS for several years...for political > reasons. That leaves me out, as 1997 was my first year. I would volunteer and would ask Disk Ross to help in this if he is willing, plus anyone else. > As for benefits, I am surprised to see how popular the "chat room" > concept is. As for the newsletter, my concern was content that didn't > duplicate that of "The Keystone" or what's on "Keystone Crossings". > Perhaps our niche would be modeling. Since the PRRT&HS itself does not > promote it, it could be our "in" to get a lot more members...even those > not online once word gets out. > > BTW, the domain "spf.com" is taken; "spfonline.com" is available. I would suggest otherwise, gents. First of all, we're not a ".com". We are not "com"mercial in any way. Much as we'd like to see the pre-Symes PRR live again, we're not going to create it. I would recommend cyber.prrths.org. We definitely are a nonprofit "org"anization, and by declaring prrths, we create a domain for the Society in general. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:35:30 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: -OTHELLO- Content-Length: 1808 Don R. Millbranth wrote: > > Could someone please tell me with which train the parlor/observation car > "OTHELLO" saw service ? > Thank you > Don, do you have some specific information that there was a parlor-obs named OTHELLO? That is an old-sounding name for a Pullman, and PRR tended in later years at least, to give its cars two-part names or the names of famous people more contemporary than Othello. (I am assuming you are looking for service by this car on the PRR). Pullman's List for 1937 does not indicate any special exterior paint scheme, i.e., PRR. According to Kratville's _Passaenger Car Catalog_, pages 16 and 21, OTHELLO was a 12 Section - Drawing Room car, Plan 2410-F, Lot 4503, Built 1917, and was assigned to general service at the time of record in the book. Wayner's _The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Passenger Cars_, page 44, indicates the car was transferred or sold to Tennessee Central (as #2229), in December, 1938, then to the Southern in December, 1947, where it was converted to a baggage car, #569. _The Official Register of Passenger Car Equipent for March, 1943, does not list this type car or #2229 under TC ownership. The Register for March, 1963, shows a baggage car 569 for the Southern. That's about all the information I have at hand containing any reference to an OTHELLO. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JDPanza Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 19:20:54 EST Subject: Re: Wheels & Paint Content-Length: 1213 On 12/10/97 hfitch@maranatha.net wrote: The "no paint" rule applies to wheels and axles as hfitch stated. It has been in AAR Interchange Rules 41 (wheels) and 42/43 (axles) for at least 25 years, probably a lot longer than that. Couplers are also prohibited from being painted by the Interchange Rules (Rules 16, 17 & 18). Truck bolsters and side frames can be given a light "fog" coat of paint but the paint must NOT be such to hide any cracks. The paint must be removed when the side frames and bolsters are reconditioned to allow for adequate inspection for cracks. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 19:59:46 EST Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter -Reply Content-Length: 1955 In a message dated 97-12-12 15:28:13 EST, you write: << Subj: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter -Reply Date: 97-12-12 15:28:13 EST From: bill.laird@coastalcorp.com Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com To: jerry@dsop.com CC: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >>> "jerry@dsop.com" 12/10/97, 10:29am wrote>>> >The chapter could also develop a standardized module >size (HO or N) which we could assemble and operate at >national conventions. Each person who wants to participate >can model their favorite scene on the Pennsy........ Great idea Jerry. Perhaps we should develop very similar module standards (height, width, length, electrical bus, etc. identical) for both HO and N. It would then be and individual modeler's choice as to weither to lay HO or N track. With a little thought we might even be able to come up with a standard for a universal module, HO and N track on the same module separated by a senic break. Perhaps something like this. +----------------------------------+ |==================================| |==================================| | N scale side | |-------- senic break -------------| | HO scale side | |==================================| |==================================| +----------------------------------+ Don't know what we would do about corner modules...... Bill Laird Houston, Texas >> Obvious, as this is PRR you're modeling, you'd use flying junctions to flip the scales. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Question for the HO modeler's out there Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 21:07:15 -0500 Content-Length: 743 Question for the HO modeler's out there. Is there a not to exceed weight limit on rolling stock to consider with the following NMRA weight recommendation? HO initial weight, 1ounce +1/2 ounce per inch of car body length Thanks in advance. Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 00:18:35 EST Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter Content-Length: 782 In a message dated 97-12-12 05:51:09 EST, jerry@dsop.com writes: >We have 165+ subscribers on the "PRR-Talk" list. Seems as if we hold >regular meetings...24 hours a day, 365 days a year! And guess what...no >dues! Yes, and it's wonderful. So why do we need a chapter? Or is my outlook distorted due to access to a "real" chapter? Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963 Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 07:25:53 EST Subject: Re: Cyber Chapter Modular Layout Content-Length: 1325 I support the suggestion of modeling as the focus of a Cyber Chapter, particularly if we incorporate the other idea of producing a Modular Layout. It would be great to be able to assemble a sizable 4 track mainline modular layout at the PRRT&HS Annual Meeting in the spring and again perhaps at the Altoona Railfest in the Fall. Members could build modules of a scene of their favorite segment of the Pennsy. It could be a very exciting project. Just think "Corner Modules of Horseshoe Curve," or several members could cooperate to do a large yard. Of course this will require carefull planning of the Standards. My preference would be HO, but have no objection to N if that were the majority decision, or both for that matter. Of course doing both would dilute the impact that we could have in assembling a large layout. Harold (Lines South, the Florida Trains) Gainesville, FL ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Proposed PRRT&HS Cyber Chapter (fwd) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 97 10:21:00 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1749 On 12/12/97 6:08 PM, Mark D Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote: >> Anyone care to volunteer as point person? IMHO, it should be someone who >> has been a member of the PRRT&HS for several years...for political >> reasons. That leaves me out, as 1997 was my first year. > >I would volunteer and would ask Disk Ross to help in this if he is willing, >plus anyone else. You're hired! > >> BTW, the domain "spf.com" is taken; "spfonline.com" is available. > >I would suggest otherwise, gents. First of all, we're not a ".com". We >are not "com"mercial in any way. Much as we'd like to see the pre-Symes >PRR live again, we're not going to create it. > >I would recommend cyber.prrths.org. We definitely are a nonprofit >"org"anization, and by declaring prrths, we create a domain for the >Society in general. I beleive they have changed the rules about .ORG's. I think you have to document your nonprofit status. Then we get into incorporation and all sorts of crap (a road which I have been down twice before). Unless, we would be covered under the umbrella of the national PRRT&HS. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:55:27 EST Subject: Re: Lines West/modeling activities (fwd) Content-Length: 1604 In a message dated 97-12-13 08:27:46 EST, you write: << Where does the Youngstown, Ohio area fit in? My father was a Yardmaster there. >> A key location on the Fort Wayne System. It was where the Ashtabula, Youngtown & Pittsburgh took off straight north carrying southbound iron ore and northbound coal. The Cleveland & Pittsburgh and a number of minor lines carried a great deal/ of other trade as well as the iron ore and coal that fed the Mahoning Valley's steel mills. There was so much Pennsy traffic in this area a four-tracked main was required on the Fort Wayne Mainline for the 21 miles between Alliance & Canton in Summit Co., thus far the only four-tracked Pennsy mainline west of Pittsburgh that I've been able to identify. Accurate prototype modeling of the Youngtown area falls across the full range of Pennsy operations, from four- track race tracks to single track branches, with numerous yards and staggng trackls as shifters shuffled thecars as needed. The single-tracked mainlines is fooound much further west and south, In the Cincinnati-Dayton area, west of Richmond in Indiana and Illinois and in Michigan. Tom Vondruskla ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 19:46:40 EST Subject: Re: Arrangement of Passenger Cars in a Consist Content-Length: 686 On trains which ran Horseshoe curve, the PRR attempted to have the corridor on the outside of the curve. EET contained instructions that trains were not to block the view from passenger trains by passing or running along side in the same direction. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Athearn, Baldwin S-12, detail parts Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 23:14:53 -0500 Content-Length: 841 Attention HO PRR model experts: Any folks know where you can get handrails & details for the Athearn Baldwin S-12 to make it more accurate for the PRR. Out of the box it is set-up for handrails down the length of the frames. I have never seen a PRR S-12 with anything but the handrails on the corners and end rails. Thanks in advance. Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Joe Gotaskie" Subject: Re: Proposed PRRT&HS Cyber Chapter Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:05:20 -0500 Content-Length: 3770 Okay we actually have 2 very good ideas going here, 1.) the formation of more chapters accommodating the lines west interest, and 2.) the formation of a PRR modeling group. These 2 very good ideas should be kept separate. This thread began because the lines west interest felt they were being neglected by the national. I think the response has shown that there is enough interested people to make this happen. How you organize (i.e.: in person or electronically) is up to you guys but it is important to organize officially if you want to be taken seriously. I can't remember the who or what's but I did see in print once the formation of a historical society that was to be run via the internet with an Adobe Acrobat newsletter, so I don't see why this couldn't be done for a single chapter. Numerous people agree that the PRRT&HS is not modeler orientated but remember it is a historical society first. We modelers (IMHO) depend on the information the society has shared with it's members to enhance our model's accuracy. There is room for modelers in the society, in fact we are probably the future of the society and I see no problem organizing as a sig that also helps promote the society. I am a modeler first and would support such a movement. The danger I saw in the Cyber chapter thread is that essentially what will be created is a "national chapter". This undoubtedly would not be accepted by the so-called powers that be as it would as it could be viewed as a competitive national group. I will now be glad to turn the soap box over to next person in line. Joe ---------- > From: Jerry_Britton > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: Proposed PRRT&HS Cyber Chapter > Date: Thursday, December 11, 1997 1:55 PM > > Judging from the comments already left on the poll > (http://prr.dsop.com/poll1/poll1.html) there is adequate interest in a > "cyber" chapter of the PRRT&HS to at least look into the actual logistics > of establishment. > > Anyone care to volunteer as point person? IMHO, it should be someone who > has been a member of the PRRT&HS for several years...for political > reasons. That leaves me out, as 1997 was my first year. > > As for benefits, I am surprised to see how popular the "chat room" > concept is. As for the newsletter, my concern was content that didn't > duplicate that of "The Keystone" or what's on "Keystone Crossings". > Perhaps our niche would be modeling. Since the PRRT&HS itself does not > promote it, it could be our "in" to get a lot more members...even those > not online once word gets out. > > BTW, the domain "spf.com" is taken; "spfonline.com" is available. > > --------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com > Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:12:32 EST Subject: Re: Arrangement of Passenger Cars in a Consist Content-Length: 1126 In a message dated 97-12-14 07:28:41 EST, ddrew@channing-bete.com writes: >PRR may have had theirs arranged to face north on east-west trains, as it >ran on the south bank of the scenic Juniata for most if not all of that >river's length. But I have no proof of that... I have no proof, either. But I doubt that they bothered, simply because the best trains almost always went through the good scenery after dark. The 20th Century, on the other hand, would have daylight over most of the distance between NY and Albany during spring and summer. I saw the Broadway many times at N.Philadelphia, but cannot remember if the all-bedroom cars were positioned any particular way. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:29:06 EST Subject: Re: On Ebay now: Baldwin 2,400hp Center Cab Transfer Content-Length: 1304 Penssy Power II has a picture of a Baldwin transfer engine in Ohio with the caption "A pair of Baldwin transfers (not Lima's) clump across B & O tracks at Bridgeport, Ohio. Lead engine, 8957 is class BS24m, model RT624." John Keel In a message dated 97-12-13 02:20:16 EST, LINESWEST@aol.com writes: << There's a Baldwin center cab 2,400 hp transfer diesel on sale on ebay...[According to] "The Diesel Builders, Volume Three: The Baldwin Locomtovie Works" This is a model of one of eight 2,400 hp RT-624s made by BLW between Oct. 12 and Nov. 30, `1951,given PRR road numbers 8958-8965....They were stationed at Conemaugh, Shire Oaks, and Johnstown, all in Pennsylvania....If I'm going to spend thsi kinda money, I'm going to make sure the model I buy was used by the PRR in western Ohiol, mainly Lima-Hamilton 2,500-h.p. transfer locos. Tom V. >> ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:34:00 EST Subject: Re: PRR on the Eastern Shore Content-Length: 685 The book on PRR's line on the Delmarva peninsula is called __Rails Along the Chesapeake, A History of Railroading on the Delmarva Peninusla, 1827-1978__ by John C. Hayman. Copyrighted 1979, Marvadel Publishers. I doubt that it's still in print. John Keel ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter (fwd) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 17:15:59 -0500 Content-Length: 2187 Mark, And if all (cyber members) were members of the National, they would also get the "Keystone" and would have an input to it ! Talk about power !!!!!! Both have there place today. Bill Knepper (boxcar46@nfdc.net) National and Chapter member ---------- > From: Mark D Bej > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter (fwd) > Date: Thursday, December 11, 1997 5:20 PM > > > I too like the idea of our group being a chapter. However, to prevent > > problems with the "powers that be" within the PRR T&HS, I would think that > > only paid up 'official' PRR T&HS members would be the only ones allowed in > > the chapter. This would probably need to be the case especially if one of > > the objective is to have some "chapter power" and getting chapter members on > > the board. > > We'd have to do this, methinks. > > > On a positive note, I agree with the electronic newsletter. Might I suggest > > the file format be Acrobat PDF. The reader is free and the newsletter would > > look the same no matter what machine or software you have. > > Might I suggest not? I don't like "corporate" solutions to things, no matter > how "open" they may be. I would much prefer HTML, which is _not_ owned > by a company and is free to all forever. > > -- > Mark > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 17:29:54 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: Proposed PRRT&HS Cyber Chapter (fwd) Content-Length: 828 On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, Jerry wrote: > I beleive they have changed the rules about .ORG's. I think you have to > document your nonprofit status. Then we get into incorporation and all > sorts of crap (a road which I have been down twice before). Unless, we > would be covered under the umbrella of the national PRRT&HS. a) I don't think they have and b) you have to pay the $50 anyhow -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 17:43:41 EST Subject: Re: PRR in Lorain Content-Length: 2801 There's a brief mention of the Lorain, Asland & Southern Railroad in The Centennial History of the Pennsylvania Railroad by burgess & Kennedy. The assumption was it was an attempt get business from the Port of Lorain anf the U.S. Steel Plant there. A 1923 system PRR system map contained in The Pennsylvania Railroad & its place in history, the Philsdelphia Chapter's 150th Anniversay book and research guide edited by PRR-Talk's own Dan Cupper shows a line running SW from Lorain, passing east of Amherst and skirting to the west of Oberlin`where it turned south to Wellington and Ashland before hitting the Fort Wayne System Mainline at a stop called Custaloga, eastt of Loudonville. The reprint of the Rand McNally 1948 Railroad Atlas of the United Statesshows a line called the Lorain & West Virginia using the LA&S right-of-way to Wellinton.where thee New York Central and wheeling & Lake Erie Crossed.. The current editon of the Ohio Atlas & gazetter (p.40 and p. 50) shows a conrail line following this general allignment running from the NS in Sheffield south ten west to the Conrail (ex-NYC water level route) between MiddleRidge Road and the Ohio Turn pike. >From the turnpike souh to the NS on the west side of wellington (still on page 40) an anbandoned rail line is shown with the basic LA&S/Ll&WV alignment to the NS on the west side of Wellington. On page 50 of the OHio A&G, an abandoned railroad grade shown intersecting with the Conrail e-w ex-Pennsy/PFtW&C mainline between Shreve and big Prarie in the southwestern corner of Wayne County. This is the most likely location of Custaloga. The abandoned grade runs north a short way and then turns northwest to generally Kaiser Ditch and Jerome Fork through the flood control detention impndment ara behind Mohicanville Dam, 'dry' flood control dam in the extreme southeastern corner of Ashland County. Passing north of the dam, the line passes to the north and east of Ashland before it assumesa more northernly aligment, in line with the southern end of the L&WV at Wellington. I'm working on a corporate geneology of PRR Lines West of Pittsburgh, I'd like to know moree about this line. all the Centennial History sez is that it was abandoned because it did,nt make any money. Clearly the northerrn Part of the line wwas open and operatng in 1948. Good Hunting! Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 17:43:42 EST Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter (fwd) Content-Length: 765 On the issue of a modular layout, the most historicall accurate plan would be a two-, three- and four-tracked mainline loop with Branches representing PRR Lines East of Pittsburgh and a single & double tracked looped to the west representin Pittsburgh with the two end joined by a large city/yard module called Pittsburgh/Conway. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:22:36 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: Athearn, Baldwin S-12, detail parts Content-Length: 903 > Attention HO PRR model experts: > > Any folks know where you can get > handrails & details for the Athearn > Baldwin S-12 to make it more accurate > for the PRR. Out of the box it is set-up > for handrails down the length of the > frames. I have never seen a PRR > S-12 with anything but the handrails > on the corners and end rails. If Smokey Valley doesn't make em, you should be able to modify the Athearn railings, which is what I plan to do -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Joe Gotaskie" Subject: Re: Question for the HO modeler's out there Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 21:36:55 -0500 Content-Length: 1601 I've never heard of an upper limit myself. I once built an Athearn observation car that I weighted following the NMRA specs. It was a true heavy weight but continues to run flawlessly. Joe ---------- > From: Harry W. Fitch IV > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: Question for the HO modeler's out there > Date: Friday, December 12, 1997 9:07 PM > > Question for the HO modeler's out there. > > Is there a not to exceed weight limit on rolling stock to consider > with the following NMRA weight recommendation? > > HO initial weight, 1ounce +1/2 ounce per inch of car body length > > Thanks in advance. > > > Harry W. Fitch > hfitch@maranatha.net > Acts 4:12 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 21:06:59 -0600 From: Bob Webber Subject: Yellowkid Content-Length: 632 Don't know if it's a hard to find item, but the train shop in San Jose has the Yellowkid & Pullman display train (Westerfield kits). They also have a E7 (about $65), a SD9 and other 2K items. Bob Webber ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jcol26 Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:18:47 EST Subject: Re: DELMARVA Content-Length: 1086 There is a book called "Rails Along the Chesapeake" that covers the history of railroading along the Eastern Shore. Much information on the PRR predecessor lines, great old (1870's) photos of stations and PRR operations. It was written in the mid-1970's, if my memory serves me correctly, by a Conrail employee but I forgot his name. I checked it out of my local library.( Newark, DE). One stat about freight ops I find amazing: During WWII, over a 1,000 cars a day were moved via the car ferry. There were 3 car floats which held about 30 cars each. Sure kept those B-6s and early Baldwin switchers busy! In the shadow of the cantenary, Jim Colvard ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:24:35 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Re: Athearn, Baldwin S-12, detail parts Content-Length: 1355 At 11:14 PM 12/13/97 -0500, you wrote: >Attention HO PRR model experts: > >Any folks know where you can get >handrails & details for the Athearn >Baldwin S-12 to make it more accurate >for the PRR. Out of the box it is set-up >for handrails down the length of the >frames. I have never seen a PRR >S-12 with anything but the handrails >on the corners and end rails. > Greetings, You might use the handrails for the Athearn SW7 as a starter. Best way is to fill in all those nasty holes and make your own handrails from .015 wire. Biggest problem is the BLW handrails are mounted on top of the walkway, this will call for drilling holes near the edge which can be tricky. If you can stand the fact the handrails are not mounted on top of walkway but are located on the sides, use the SW7 handrails. I don't think anyone makes the type handrail used by BLW. Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:20:07 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: PRRMOdular Content-Length: 3320 >On the issue of a modular layout, the most historicall accurate plan would be >a two-, three- and four-tracked mainline loop with Branches representing PRR >Lines East of Pittsburgh and a single & double tracked looped to the west >representin Pittsburgh with the two end joined by a large city/yard module >called Pittsburgh/Conway. > >Tom V. Tom, You've made several very good points with respect to a modular layout of the PRR. I would definitely be interested in seeing how you would propose the above for a modular layout, which would allow for spectator access. If you could whip up a drawing, and scan it in JPEG/GIF, I could post it for additional comments (BTW, I am working on just such a drawing for my ideas). One consideration we MUST have though is that the "layout" will not always be assembled in the same way each time, as different "members" will show up at different locations - this is the heart of the modular concept. Thus, to represent the PRR, would it not be best to generalize, at least a little, and have a set-up where a four track main, and a two track main would be the central focus? Of course, modules would be assembled in some geographic order, if possible, and I would suggest that modules have maps/location descriptions attached to the front fascia. If there is enough interest we would have to start with a very simple, typical (cringe!) "oval", and work up from there, such as adding branch line modules or splitting the 4 track main into 2 track mains as I proposed recently. Currently, judging by email replies (4 other than myself) there is NOT enough interest to even organize this group. We need at least 10 people. So far, I have heard interest (no commitment ) from: Jerry Britton Tom V. Harold Joe Gotaskie As 1/5 of the group, I can only assume we can expect some Lines West Modules from you? ;^) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** "The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four Americans is suffering from some form of mental illness. Think of your three best friends. If they are okay, then it's you." - Rita Mae Brown _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter (fwd) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 97 10:20:21 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1402 On 12/14/97 6:43 PM, LINESWEST (LINESWEST@aol.com) wrote: >On the issue of a modular layout, the most historicall accurate plan would be >a two-, three- and four-tracked mainline loop with Branches representing PRR >Lines East of Pittsburgh and a single & double tracked looped to the west >representin Pittsburgh with the two end joined by a large city/yard module >called Pittsburgh/Conway. Call me sick, but... What if we made a FREEMO layout (modules that share end plate specs but can be any shape, allowing turns and unusual shapes). We could have slight changes in elevations and the layout could turn back in and out of itself so that, when viewed from above, would spell out the interlaced PRR logo!!! Uuuuh, the straightjacket should be a 44 Long, please! ;-) --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:27:22 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Question for the HO modeler's out there Content-Length: 994 Harry W. Fitch IV wrote: > > Question for the HO modeler's out there. > > Is there a not to exceed weight limit on rolling stock to consider > with the following NMRA weight recommendation? > > HO initial weight, 1ounce +1/2 ounce per inch of car body length > Hary, RP 20.1 advises against using more than the calculated "optimum weight of 1 oz plus 1/2 oz per inch of car length, stating that additional weight merely adds friction and drag. Actually, it is self-limiting: how long a car were you planning on running? :-) Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 15 Dec 97 09:48:01 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: Question for the HO modeler's out there (long) Content-Length: 8924 --====54575351515253485156===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" I hope I don't upset PRR-talk members by discussion of more generalized, off-PRR-topic, non-prototypic issues. If PRR-talk members feel this stuff is best discussed off the list, fine, anyone wanting to respond can contact me directly. First, what would be the point of weighting your cars more than you would absolutely have to, to obtain good tracking performance? Are your locomotives packed to the gills with weight, so even cars weighted to two-times or more their "delivered" weight is still not enough to challenge your power? But to answer your question, I suppose the upper amount of weight would have to depend on the construction of the trucks the cars ride upon. In weighting my cars to the NMRA standard, I am finding that I have to replace any plastic-axle wheelsets with steel-axle ones, due to the wear factor -- the pointed plastic axle ends are wearing to round nubs, even at the NMRA weighting standard. Plastic sideframes with needlepoint steel axle ends would probably wear out faster than metal sideframes with the same types of axle ends, such as those made by Central Valley or Cape Line. Eventually a groove would wear into the journal where the axle made contact, increasing friction and reduced the numbers of cars that could be pulled. I haven't had this experience yet with steel axles in plastic sideframes, following the NMRA recommended practice. Of course, when you can only pull five or six weighted cars on level track with a locomotive the size of, say, a J1a, that might indicate you're weighting them too much, too! ; < ) I'd like to say that weighting my cars to NMRA recommended practice has improved the operation of my model railroad dramatically, particularly helper operations. Even if the helper stalls or hestitates with the train wrapped around a curve, a "clothesline" derailment is less likely to happen with a properly weighted train. The helper actually has to WORK, vs. being there more for decoration. The trains also have more mass, requiring taking slack in order to get the train moving under steam. To change the subject of this thread somewhat, what I AM finding is that sprung trucks tend to derail far more frequently with NMRA-std. weighted cars. This may be at least in part a function of my lack of track-laying skill, but I bring it up for discussion. Some of my yard trackage is of necessity Shinohara #6 curved turnouts, which seem to cause a lot of mischief with the sprung-trucked cars. It has happened with every brand of sprung trucks, including Central Valley and Cape Line. The good old Athearn "stock" Bettendorfs with no spring-equalization seem to cope just fine. Yes, I do employ the "three-point" suspension technique, on all cars. Could that be the problem, with the sprung-trucked cars? Harry W. Fitch IV wrote: > Question for the HO modeler's out there. > >Is there a not to exceed weight limit on rolling stock to consider >with the following NMRA weight recommendation? > >HO initial weight, 1ounce +1/2 ounce per inch of car body length > >Thanks in advance. > > > Harry W. Fitch >hfitch@maranatha.net > Acts 4:12 > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====54575351515253485156===1 Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:14:54 -0500 (EST) From: Roger Kirkpatrick Subject: Cabin cars Content-Length: 1258 Howdy, I've been on the list for a few weeks now and found a minimum of interest in cabin cars. Combine that with the chapter chatter and it is time for me to go. I'll unsub later today. Thanks to those that helped with the cabin car questions. If you want to keep in touch about cabins, keep my address: . Cheers, Roger _______ S. Roger Kirkpatrick ______|_____| [ ] |___________ 927 Colegate Drive | | | | Marietta, OH 45750 | | [ ] [ ] | | | | | | Fax - 614-376-4777 |__|______________________|__| Home - 614-374-6732 O<=>O O<=>O ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:38:42 +0000 From: "Phillips, III, J.A." Subject: Re: arranging passenger cars in a consist Content-Length: 984 PRR List- We put out a summary of NP passenger train consists from the 1950s over this weekend, I can e-mail it to anyone who is interested. Not PRR, but it might point you in a prototypical direction. 73s, John Phillips -- Tell Tale News | http://pw2.netcom.com/~whstlpnk/telltale.html Northern Pacific | http://pw2.netcom.com/~whstlpnk/np.html Historical Assoc. | http://www.employees.org/~davison/nprha/nprha.html || N O R T H E R N P A C I F I C R A I L W A Y || Route of the Vista-Dome North Coast Limited ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Athearn, Baldwin S-12, detail parts Date: Mon, 15 Dec 97 10:39:13 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1139 >> Any folks know where you can get >> handrails & details for the Athearn >> Baldwin S-12 to make it more accurate >> for the PRR. Out of the box it is set-up >> for handrails down the length of the >> frames. I have never seen a PRR >> S-12 with anything but the handrails >> on the corners and end rails. > >If Smokey Valley doesn't make em, you should be able to modify the Athearn >railings, which is what I plan to do > >-D I did what Derrick suggested. I filled in Athearn's old holes and drilled new ones and then just used one (or two I forget now) Athearn stanchons and bent the supplied full length hand rail into a short one. It was pretty easy and looks good too. Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:52:58 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: arranging passenger cars in a consist Content-Length: 1760 Hello all, One consideration in setting up a passenger train is to arrange the room cars so that the isle is toward the center of multiple tracks. This is to reduce the annoyance and noise of passing trains bothering sleeping passengers. Naturally, this would not apply to coach types or to 12-1s (except for the drawingroom), and there were some room cars such as the 6-3 that had rooms on both sides. Moreover, this pleasant theory would be hard to accomplish on multi track roads like the PRR. These same problems would apply to viewing the scenery. So I suspect that was more theory than practice. As to commissary loading, replenishing water and ice, etc., these would normally be done in major terminals where the train can be parked on tracks separated by bricked walkways, so access to either side would not be a problem. This does bring up an interesting detail: now many of you have modeled your passenger terminal with the commissary truck, ice trucks, baggage carts and RPO vans pre positioned for arriving trains? Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Norton WRC Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:47:23 EST Subject: 1940's PRR Rolling Stock Resources Content-Length: 884 I am modelling the PRR during the 1940's, specifically the electrified lines. Has someone published a book that has information/pictures of the various passenger and freight rolling stock used during that time period? Since I wasn't around in the '40's, I need a guide as to what rolling stock and paint schemes were used so I can figure out what models should appear on my railroad. Are there such resources and which is the best? Thanks, Andy Norton ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania Date: Mon, 15 Dec 97 14:22:40 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1553 Went to Strasburg on Saturday, with my five year old daughter. This was my third visit over the past eighteen months. I am only an hour away. The museum had a "Home for the Holidays" theme going, with volunteers in period dress and free cookies, coffee, and hot chocolate for visitors. Met David Dunn, the new director. Highlight was that several pieces of stock were opened for viewing that normally aren't. These include: "Lotos Club" (Pullman Company, restaurant-sleeper, built 1913, rebuilt 1936, Plan No. 4025D); No. 203 (Western Maryland Railway, Business Car, built Pullman Company, 1914, Plan No. 2793); an N5C cabin car, an RPO, and a GP9. The later was more of a thrill for the young'n! Museum is looking really good and I highly recommend a visit for those who haven't been there yet. Blows away Altoona; I haven't been to Steamtown, however. FWIW, the Strasburg museum is largely PRR; Steamtown is not. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: Question for the HO modeler's out there (long) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:15:11 -0500 Content-Length: 947 I just wanted to know if there was a cut-off point for weight according to NMRA practices I do not intend to load HO cars with spent Uranium fuel rods! and for the record I do own a J1a. Doug Drew Wrote: First, what would be the point of weighting your cars more than you would absolutely have to, to obtain good tracking performance? Are your locomotives packed to the gills with weight, so even cars weighted to two-times or more their "delivered" weight is still not enough to challenge your power? ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Jim Hudson" Subject: Re: DELMARVA Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:29:22 -0000 Content-Length: 1970 The book is by John Hayman, published in 1979. About the car ferry: The car float freight service averaged a 1,000 cars in the 40s, 400 in the fifties, and 150 in the sixties. I believe that it stands around 200 cars per day now (but I may be wrong). Jim -----Original Message----- From: Jcol26 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, December 15, 1997 3:54 PM Subject: Re: DELMARVA >There is a book called "Rails Along the Chesapeake" that covers the history of >railroading along the Eastern Shore. Much information on the PRR predecessor >lines, great old (1870's) photos of stations and PRR operations. It was >written in the mid-1970's, if my memory serves me correctly, by a Conrail >employee but I forgot his name. I checked it out of my local ibrary.( Newark, >DE). > >One stat about freight ops I find amazing: During WWII, over a 1,000 cars a >day were moved via the car ferry. There were 3 car floats which held about 30 >cars each. Sure kept those B-6s and early Baldwin switchers busy! > >In the shadow of the cantenary, >Jim Colvard > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Jim Hudson" Subject: Re: PRR on the Eastern Shore Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:30:08 -0000 Content-Length: 1406 No, and it goes for $60+ at swap meets and flea markets. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Da72jmk To: hosam@gc.net ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, December 15, 1997 12:03 PM Subject: Re: PRR on the Eastern Shore >The book on PRR's line on the Delmarva peninsula is called __Rails Along the >Chesapeake, A History of Railroading on the Delmarva Peninusla, 1827-1978__ >by John C. Hayman. Copyrighted 1979, Marvadel Publishers. > >I doubt that it's still in print. John Keel > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249 Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:05:00 EST Subject: Pennsylvania & Ontario Gondolas Content-Length: 913 Have a friend - with Canadian interests - who would like to find published information on PRR produced drop bottom Gondolas (possibly GS sub class) which were used across Lake Erie on Car Ferry and assigned to Canadian Pacific locomotive coaling service. He believes that there is/was some info published on these cars which were lettered "Pennsylvania & Ontario" - he is interested in producing HO scale kit - can anyone give me a "starting point" for research ? Dick Ross ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:26:40 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Re: arranging passenger cars in a consist Content-Length: 1252 At 10:52 AM 12/15/97 -0600, you wrote: >This does bring up an interesting detail: now many of you have modeled your >passenger terminal with the commissary truck, ice trucks, baggage carts and >RPO vans pre positioned for arriving trains? > > >Robert A. Boyd >Those Classic Trains >"Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." Greetings, My layout is composed of one division point, which does not handle passenger trains, and several small towns. All passenger traffic is thru type from one large city to another large city. Guess they do all that stuff in one of the larger(off site) cities. My thru passenger trains are of the type which ran from either Chicago to Miami or New York to New orleans. Locals wave to them as they pass thru. Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:27:41 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Catenary Content-Length: 1240 Hi folks... This was started by another letter...since there are other Electrified folks out there... I model in H.O....and am building a short section of the PRR main in Baltimore (between the B&P and Union tunnels)at penn station... this as most of you eastern folks know is electried territory... does anyone know of a simple way to make or model Catenary..that is not too involved..and still looks good..or Commercialy made stuff that is not too much? I have a short test section (a 2x6 about 3 feet long) that i am perfecting (trying) to make Catenary on. I use plastistruct for my poles and fine wire and beads for my Catenary... Any help would be Great...listen up Jerry...you'll need this info too!! H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:46:40 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Saved Locomotives Content-Length: 1712 Hello all... This is a question more of curiousity than anything else...I have often wondered why some PRR locomotive types were saved and others not. I can understand why most that are here today are around perhaps because they were more familiar to most of the men who ran and serviced them and to the public that saw them...but there were others that stood as engineering monuments to the genius of Pennsy designers and locomotive builders...that perhaps too should have been saved... I.E. lies a paradox...G class 5741 which was not as well known as a T-1 was saved while the T-1 was not....no J classes were saved while we have three H class engines with us... there are no Q-2 classes... no Baldwin centipedes...while there are many EMD engines...(I am glad that the E-7a was saved)Why were'nt the R-1 and DD-2 saved while we have so many GG-1 engines? This is not to say i am not happy with what was saved...I am ..very much so.It is that i am just wondering what directive or who with-in the Pennsy decided what was saved and what was not.Was the price of scrap so great in the fifties that it made a difference? Are there historical records that docunented this? H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:09:16 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: More on engines Content-Length: 1065 Hello again... As an aside to my earlier post i have another question...Does anyone know if in the historical records of the PRR if erection or builders drawings for various locomotive classes were saved? were any molds saved? And if (a big if)could a NEW locomotive be built from those plans? say if some crazy millionare were to want one built or some scenerio such as that...? is'nt the old Baldwin subsidary General Steel Castings still around?... I can dream can't i?...wish i had some millions to play with...lucky that i can barely afford a Bowser...LOL H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:34:57 -0500 From: "Vagel C. Keller" Subject: Re: Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania Content-Length: 2490 At 02:22 PM 12/15/97 -0400, Jerry wrote: >Went to Strasburg on Saturday ... >Museum is looking really good ... Blows away Altoona; We should remember that Altoona is the Railroaders' Memorial Museum, not necessarily RR Museum of PA, West and the focus of indoor displays seems to be on the people who worked on the PRR, not necessarily on the history of the P-Company (geography, technology, equipment, etc). I always give that "caveat" to people when asked about the two locations. Of course, that doesn't explain away the rather dingy and eclectic outdoor displays at Altoona. In fairness to the Altoona facility, they had a major setback on their new indoor facility last year when the contractor on the exhibits defaulted and they had to go back to "square one" in negotiating grants and contracts. Then, again, there are a LOT more votes in SE PA than in the Allegheny Ridge. Altoona benefited heavily from the America's Industrial Heritage Project, which, unfortunately ends in 1998, I believe (duration 10 years). >I haven't been to >Steamtown, however. FWIW, the Strasburg museum is largely PRR; Steamtown >is not. > Haven't been there, yet, either, but probably should go, just to be able to have an "informed" opinion. I've heard FEW good comments, though. Apparently the train ride attracts a far larger audience than the NPS museum facility. Vagel Keller Pittsburgh, PA vagelk@usaor.net THE INDUSTRIAL HERITAGE HOMEPAGE http://www.usaor.net/users/vagelk _||_||_ || || || || || ||\ || || || || ||_||\\ /\_||__||__||__||_/\ \\ // \\ o x o x o x o . . . \/ \ \\ o _____ | | / \ >][_n_n_|HH] /====___ ________ ________ (_______|__]_[_______]_|\____/| |\____/| _/o OOOO o` oo oo 'oo oo' 'oo oo' ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: hazmats in the GG 1s (fwd) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:46:17 -0500 Content-Length: 516 > Wasn't the culprit in the Love Canal incident PCB's? __________________ it was dioxin ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 16 Dec 97 09:20:10 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania Content-Length: 9725 --====51535551575255495249===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Haven't been to the Railroaders' Museum at Altoona, yet. Been to Steamtown and Strasburg. They are two different animals, really. Strasburg is far and away the better of the two, for the Pennsy fan -- and since they have all the PRR's historical collection, they OUGHT to be!!! It almost brings a lump to one's throat, to think that PRR had enough sense of itself and its history that they felt it important to preserve at least one of each major type of locomotive and many representative cars, for future generations to appreciate -- how many other railroads did this (OK, UP, but not to the extent PRR did). It's a damned shame they didn't save a T1 or Q2, though. Steamtown is definitely worth at least one visit, on a weekend (the ride behind steam up the Poconos is only on weekends, weekdays is a short tour of the yard up to the Scranton depot/hotel behind their 0-6-0). Your reaction to it might be based on your expectations. I used to go to the Bellows Falls operation a lot, which was pretty amateur-hour in comparison to the Scranton setup. Scranton, in comparison, amazed me with its professionalism. Of course, Scranton has had the benefit of Uncle Sam's deep pockets, courtesy of Rep. McDade, and it shows. It's really something to see what they had to work with (DL&W's Scranton shops, abandoned for decades and gone back to nature, trees growing through the roundhouse roof, etc.), and what they were able to turn it into. The two-floor museum is beautifully-designed and interesting, though a tad light on artifacts. They have a terrific operating HO model of the Scranton yard and shop complex, in the glory days of steam, with appropriate brass models of DL&W power. The part that most impressed me is they're actually rebuilding and maintaining steam locomotives there, and you get to watch, via an elevated walkway around the perimeter of the roundhouse. The Park Service also gives informative tours of the rest of the shops, the locomotive back shop and the car shop, both with several pieces under restoration. And of course, there's the ride behind steam... The only down note is a lot of their collection is stored inaccessible to the general public, and they get politely upset with people like me who go under the chains... Hope this helps... -- Doug Drew Jerry_Britton wrote: >Went to Strasburg on Saturday, with my five year old daughter. This was >my third visit over the past eighteen months. I am only an hour away. > >The museum had a "Home for the Holidays" theme going, with volunteers in >period dress and free cookies, coffee, and hot chocolate for visitors. >Met David Dunn, the new director. > >Highlight was that several pieces of stock were opened for viewing that >normally aren't. These include: "Lotos Club" (Pullman Company, >restaurant-sleeper, built 1913, rebuilt 1936, Plan No. 4025D); No. 203 >(Western Maryland Railway, Business Car, built Pullman Company, 1914, >Plan No. 2793); an N5C cabin car, an RPO, and a GP9. The later was more >of a thrill for the young'n! > >Museum is looking really good and I highly recommend a visit for those >who haven't been there yet. Blows away Altoona; I haven't been to >Steamtown, however. FWIW, the Strasburg museum is largely PRR; Steamtown >is not. > >--------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com >Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com >Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====51535551575255495249===1 From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: Catenary Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:28:09 -0500 Content-Length: 1030 > does anyone know of a simple way to make or model Catenary..that is > not > too involved..and still looks good..or Commercialy made stuff that > is not > too much? > ------------------------------------ This is the voice of experience here. Learn to work with brass and make your own uprights/supports with brass shapes and solder them together. Mount them so they can withstand a forearm swipe without breaking or lifting out. Best fishes, andrew harmantas, looking forward to about three fingers of holiday cheer--straight, no chaser. Makes good paint thinner, too. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 16 Dec 97 09:29:28 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: More on engines Content-Length: 5330 --====50545056575054515557===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Actually, in England (where they are even foamier about steam than in this country -- they have more steam locomotives operating over there on a daily basis than you can shake a stick at) they are in the process of building an "A-1" pacific type from scratch, a Gresley design for the LNER, I believe. So it IS possible -- they have an ongoing fund for its construction -- I think they have the frame complete, at this stage. England gave up steam a lot later than this country did, and they are far more less likely to have discarded those important drawings, patterns, machine tools, etc. that lines over here did. Steamtown had to obtain lathes for truing locomotive drivers and such from the US Navy, as the equipment to handle such large machining jobs doesn't exist anywhere else, at least at a price they could afford. bubbles wrote: > Hello again... > As an aside to my earlier post i have another question...Does anyone know > if in the historical records of the PRR if erection or builders drawings > for various locomotive classes were saved? were any molds saved? > And if (a big if)could a NEW locomotive be built from those plans? say > if some crazy millionare were to want one built or some scenerio such > as that...? is'nt the old Baldwin subsidary General Steel Castings still > around?... > > I can dream can't i?...wish i had some millions to play with...lucky that > i can barely afford a Bowser...LOL > > H.Mummert > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====50545056575054515557===1 From: LINESWEST Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:03:29 EST Subject: re: KC & PRRT&HS, whatt to do? (long) Content-Length: 4919 Dear all, I'm happy to see that Mark Bej and others (I'm unsure if Dick Ross has responded publicly thee Mark's recruitment request) who have credibility with the PRRT&HS are willing to take on the task of working with the PRRT&HS to see the needs KC particpants have been commenting on. However, I caution that we should not take on too much. As has been noted earlier,.this thread has identified several different needs. First and fore most, there should an improved cybe presence for the PRRT&HS. Second, of nearly equal importance, is the need for an organization of Pennsy modelers. Third, and merely mentioned as an after thought by nearly everyone but me, is a need for SIGs devoted to the various subsidiaries of the PRR that could also translate into Geograpihical SIGS (i.e.GR&I=PRR in Michigan); Little Miami RR, Southwest Ohio; Vandalia RR, PRR west of Indy; etc.) TRying to bite off too much can be the death of any new organization. Weneed to prioritize our needs and actaccordingly. Here's some thoughts: Whatever is done should bee done under the current Aegis of the PRRT&HS. They are custodians of the PRR legacy we seek to recreate on our layouts. They need use to preserve the legacy of the nation's greatest railroad. Plus duplication does nothing but sap every one's energy and cash. While this thread sprang from my sarcasm about the PRRT&HS' web presence, that is not the most pressing need to move the PRRT&HS into the 21st Century. Its been 30 years since the dark, dark day when ja pale jade covered dark, rich DGLE. I'm 42 now, only 12 in January 1968, and only have fleeting memories of the PRR. Clearly if the PRRT&HS is to maintain its current size, not grow or expand, just maintain current numbers, modeling the PRR will have to become a much more central focus of the organization. Efforts like John Teichmoeller's 14-part series on PRR hopper cars of the 20th Century, from the GL and GLa to the H43, published by Model Railroading in 1994 and 1995 should be encouraged. Getting articles like this into The Keystone will probably be one of the biggest hurdle facing us since it is, quite correctly, the PRRT&HS's crown jewel. Current purists in the membership will call this scarelige, however the most common criticism of The Keystone among past PRRT&HS members is that they were disappointed with its lack of modeling information. A case can be made that a publicized shift in editorial policy of The Keystoneto include modeling as one of its primary focii, with featured and cover articles will likely be heralded as a watershed event in Railroad Modeling with a resultant spate of editorial comment among all commercial magazines something called free publicity. more on that later. Many people on volunteer organizations become so focus upon their mission that theyt often forgett that onee of most important jobs of any volunteer organization to to recruit new members. ALL VOLUNTEER ORGANIZATIONS HAVE: A. a relatively high turnover of members. B. a relatively small core group committed to doing what's to keep the group running. C. Circumstances that keep the committment and involvement of this core group in flux. Invaribly, the guy who screams loudest about the ungrateful dues paying louts who have taking his sacrifical involment gets a new job that dramatically reduces his involvment before the next annual meeting. Many PRR fans complain that the PRRT&HS is closely guarded secret that they're hestitant to join because they are unsure if new members are welcome. Growth should be a focus. Free publicity about Keystone articles, the modular project etc.,and very occasional paid afs. could easily and cheaply dispell this notion. One the greatest benefits of PRR modular would be the amount of continuing magazine coveragee, ala the V&O, Midwest modelers or NEB&W recieve. Rather than reinvent the wheel, the best role of the PRR in cyberspace is as aaa clearinghouse for existing web resources. The current page, with active links and regularly updated would be very god. Remember the hope you felt when you first discovered it. If the above objectives are achieved, then the formation of geographical SIGs and other SIGS will follow as membership expands and become more geographically diverse. My thoughts, for what they're worth. More on the need for prototypical fidelity in the Modular PRR later. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: On Ebay now: Baldwin 2,400hp Center Cab Transfer Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:08:51 -0600 Content-Length: 589 Here I go again, without my sources in front of me,but I also believe a Lima (not Baldwin) unit was stationed at 59th street in Chicago at one time. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:11:38 EST Subject: Re: 1940's PRR Rolling Stock Resources Content-Length: 839 Andy: If you narrow down the date to early, mid or late 40's I can provide freight car information regrading the various classes and their relative numbers. As to the paint scheme. The circle Keystone was the predominant scheme in the 40's. A few no hearld cars were still present in the early 40's. The shadow Keystone did not come to be unitl 1954 and the plain Keystone arrived in 1962. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:31:04 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: car weight Content-Length: 1367 >I just wanted to know if there was a cut-off point for weight >according to NMRA practices > >I do not intend to load HO cars with spent Uranium fuel rods! >and for the record I do own a J1a. > ===== I am reminded of a character I knew out in California who had a cheap plastic gondola car with load: underneath the load was solid lead shot and the wheelsets had been crazyglued. He would slip this into a train at the local club layout and we would all watch with amusement as the new motive power hotrock of the day would struggle to get a 10 car consist over the road with his brace of superdetailed, supertuned SDs. Gawd! I love this hobby! Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:31:06 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Saved Locomotives Content-Length: 2600 > Hello all... > This is a question more of curiousity than anything else...I have often > wondered why some PRR locomotive types were saved and others not. > ===== The thing to remember is that we have a different perspective than they did back when. When the railroads retired a locomotive, it was not some priceless artifact; it was junk to be disposed of. This is particularly true in the case of some of the early diesels; I am sure there were no regrets for the passing of those $*#@& Centipedes that leak oil all over the floor! When motive power was striken from the roster, the road had two options: sell it to another road (not common), or scrap it for the scrap value. It was only fairly late on that the option to donate it to someone for the tax break came along: for which we may be thankful- because the roads dumped hundreds of steamers on unsuspecting city park departments. Sadly, there were no Historical Societies back then as we have today, nor was our technical and cultural heritage a big deal back then. Try to scrap a Baldwin Centipede today and there will be an uproar in Congress. So what got saved, or not, was entirely a matter of circumstances. No DD-1s were saved because they were obscure units that no one thought about. T-1s were not saved because they were failures (we don't think of them that way today, but that was the fact of the case). What did get saved was what was donated to city parks or museums as a purely financial move, or a sentimental gesture by some Division Superintendant, such as the K4 that sat at Horseshoe Curve. My personal fantasy would be to get at the scrap lines where all those surplus passenger cars sat after the war! Lordy! What a passenger train that would be! Anyone have any pet fantasy about their favorite scrapline passenger train: cars, and of course, motive power? Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:51:17 -0500 (EST) From: Roger Kirkpatrick Subject: Cabin cars Content-Length: 1047 I have a listing of CR, PC, and PRR cabins/cabooses that are more or less preserved. The cost of a copy of the listing is an e-mail to ME. Roger _______ S. Roger Kirkpatrick ______|_____| [ ] |___________ 927 Colegate Drive | | | | Marietta, OH 45750 | | [ ] [ ] | | | | | | Fax - 614-376-4777 |__|______________________|__| Home - 614-374-6732 O<=>O O<=>O ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:08:23 EST Subject: Saved locos Content-Length: 1028 The steam locomotives which were saved were all part of the PRR's historical collection. The diesels were for the most part non-PRR efforts. Why the T-1, was never placed in the collection is a good but probably unanswerable question. The Q's, S's and J's all went to scrap. These were scraped when the PRR was cash poor and needed the money thus none were saved. As to why the G-5 is in the collection -- it was almost as prolific a locomotive as the K4s. The G-5 other wise know as the "Pittsburgh" engine was widely used on Lines West and in Pittsburgh as a commuter locomotive. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:13:40 EST Subject: Re: More on engines Content-Length: 1257 In a message dated 97-12-16 12:19:42 EST, bubbles@visi.net writes: << As an aside to my earlier post i have another question...Does anyone know if in the historical records of the PRR if erection or builders drawings for various locomotive classes were saved? Yes. were any molds saved? No. And if (a big if)could a NEW locomotive be built from those plans? say if some crazy millionare were to want one built or some scenerio such as that...? Possible but not probable. First problem would be finding the craftsmen/women with the skills to make the various components. Then find a machine shop with large enough milling machines and a foundry capable of casting the various cast parts. is'nt the old Baldwin subsidary General Steel Castings still around?. ??.. >> Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:16:00 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter Content-Length: 1243 PRRMAN wrote: > > In a message dated 97-12-12 05:51:09 EST, jerry@dsop.com writes: > > >We have 165+ subscribers on the "PRR-Talk" list. Seems as if we hold > >regular meetings...24 hours a day, 365 days a year! And guess > what...no > >dues! > > Yes, and it's wonderful. So why do we need a chapter? Or is my > outlook distorted due to access to a "real" chapter? > > Rich Copeland > As someone with no ready access to a "real" chapter, I think your reaction may be a little colored. Why not a CYBER chapter? Why not belong to BOTH if appropriate? If there is a MOUNTAIN DIVISION chapter, I might well join because of my interest--even though my funds and time would prevent me from attending in person. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:46:01 EST Subject: Re: Saved Locomotives Content-Length: 1020 In a message dated 97-12-16 12:08:58 EST, bubbles@visi.net writes: << This is a question more of curiousity than anything else...I have often wondered why some PRR locomotive types were saved and others not. >> Much of what was saved was saved because it happened to still be around. The H3 was in use at an industrial company before it was restored by the PRR for a World's Fair (or something). The D16sb was allegedly saved because the roundhouse superintendent liked it and kept it hidden whenever the "brass" came to visit. It was used on the light rail line to Easton, MD. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:34:00 -0500 From: "Bunger, James" Subject: RE: Catenary Content-Length: 5412 Fellow PRR-talkers: The following is an quote from Volume 1 Issue 8 of The Connecting, The Newsletter of the New York Connecting Railroad Society. I will look for a flyer in my 'archives' and can post them if I find them and there is interest. I saw the products at one of the local shows but did not have any photos with me to verify accuracy to the PRR. [Apologies for using the name of that regional railroad that we are not suppose to type about here but it was part of the quote! :-) ] James Bunger " Like many (most) people interested in railroading, the interest started as a result of a family member working for the railroad or from exposure to railroading as a child. Mine was the latter. Living in the Woodlawn section of the Bronx, my parent's apartment overlooked Woodlawn station and the junction of the New York Central Harlem line and the New Haven. Often on warm summer nights my dad and I would walk to the station and watch those beautiful P-2s and EP3s working thought the interlocking at Woodlawn. When it was time to return home and go to bed, I would fall asleep to the thundering electrics crossing the small plate girder bridge over the Bronx River just north of the station. This is how God intended childhood to be, but those days are gone. And some aptly said "gone but not forgotten." Model Memories was started in 1993 to preserve in miniature the memories of those good old days. WE feel this is particularly important since n not too many years the things we remember most about railroads in the old days will be completely gone. Take for example the NYC Cantilever Signal Bridge; there were dozens of these signals along the NYC main lines, now there are only a few remaining, and these are slated for removal. Another example is the original NH catenary wire installed in the early 1900s. This wire is being replaces at a rapid pace by a European wire configuration. For the modeler of the New York Central and New Haven railroads there is hope. Model Memories offers a number of products unique to those railroads: New York Central Railroad Cantilever Signal - Not much is known about the origin of this signal except that it began to appear in the 1920s. New York Central Third Rail System - Model Memories has a complete 3rd rail system including Hangers, simulated third rail, wooden cove, and instructions. New Haven and New York Westchester and Boston Catenary System - Along with the New York Central, the New Haven Railroad was an early adopter of electric power primarily as a result of the New York City Council forbidding steam locomotives in city limits. The New haven was a little later that the New York Central in completing its electrification project. The New Haven completed electrification between New York City and New Haven, Connecticut in 1914 and like the New York Central's third rail, the original structures are still in daily use. Model Memories offers a complete catenary system duplicating the bridges, wire, floating bar hangers and other items used by these two railroads. The Catenary Bridges are available in 2, 3 and 4 track widths with either straight or tapered legs. Below are bridges representing straight and tapered leg styles. [ How can modelers of the NY Connecting use these products? - Ed.] With the exception of the third rail hangers, which are Delrin plastic, catenary structures and signals are fabricated from brass. A catalog of the items described and other HO and S scale detail parts is available by sending $1 to Model Memories, P.O. Box 692, Bethel, CT 06801. ---------- From: bubbles@visi.net To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com Subject: Catenary Date: Monday, December 15, 1997 7:27PM Hi folks... This was started by another letter...since there are other Electrified folks out there... I model in H.O....and am building a short section of the PRR main in Baltimore (between the B&P and Union tunnels)at penn station... this as most of you eastern folks know is electried territory... does anyone know of a simple way to make or model Catenary..that is not too involved..and still looks good..or Commercialy made stuff that is not too much? I have a short test section (a 2x6 about 3 feet long) that i am perfecting (trying) to make Catenary on. I use plastistruct for my poles and fine wire and beads for my Catenary... Any help would be Great...listen up Jerry...you'll need this info too!! H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, Steamtown & Altoona Date: Tue, 16 Dec 97 17:58:02 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1362 Hi, I've been to all three places (Strasburg, Steamtown, and Altoona RR Memorial) and I have to agree that Strasburg is definitely the winner for the PRR fan. The Strasburg RR across the street from the museum there also has a few very nice PRR pieces of equiptment worth seeing. They have a XL boxcar, an ND caboose and an ex PRR GE 44 tonner. (PRR J tower is there too.) Steamtown is pretty good for now as they're working on the K4. Other than that the only PRR equiptment that they have is two X26c boxcars. They do have steam trips but then again the Strasburg RR is right across the street from the Penn RR Museum. The museum at Altoona almost makes you want to cry. They have a nice collection of PRR rolling stock but it's all deteriating pretty badly. Most of their equiptment is very overdue for a paint job. Nicest part is being able to see the traffic through Altoona on the PRR. Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:13:24 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Locos and Catenary Content-Length: 1782 Hello all.. I wish to thank everyone for the responces to my questions so far... They are very helpful and some things will be tried out(as to catenary) In my questions about saved engines i was just wondering who and how from the PRR it self made the decicions to save what locos... Did the policy toward saving certain classes change from time to time depending who was on the prr's board of directors or some division head? one oddity i noticed was that one older engine class that was not saved(save for the narrow gauge engine) was the F class engines. Since the historical collection must have started before at least the mid thirties one of them (F class) had to be around near the end of the twenties if not in the thirties(although off roster) or sold to some other railroad. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened to engines in the E-3,E-5,K-2,K-3 or K-5 classes...if they too had been saved although i guess the 7002(E-7 former E-2)kinda represents the older ones. The way the H-classes were saved gives a better picture of that classes developement. Another thing i wondered about was PRR policy to not donating locos to local cities and towns as some other railroad had. Once again...Thanks folks H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:20:48 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: EBT Content-Length: 886 Hello again... Since the subject of steam collections has come up...one that has'nt been mentioned so far is the East Broad Top. Does anyone know how it is faring these days...last i heard they were having a hard time keeping it going and that they were still tring to get government help. Does anyone know?...(I know it ain't PRR but they had a connection and any steam saved is gotta be good) H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:22:59 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Catenary Content-Length: 683 Hi... BTW..There was a good article on making Catenary in one of the magazines this past year...catenary for the Virginian but very close to PRR type. Might have been Main line Modeler...not sure. H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:42:05 -0500 Content-Length: 1661 Doug Drew Wrote: PRR had enough sense of itself and its history that they felt it important to preserve at least one of each major type of locomotive and many representative cars, for future generations to appreciate -- how many other railroads did this (OK, UP, but not to the extent PRR did). It's a shame they didn't save a T1 or Q2, though. Doug, Your so right about the PRR having kept a good piece of it's history when other roads did not. The NYC did NOT keep one of their famous Hudson type locomotives. Where I live it is close to the cradle of American railroading. The B&O Museum has only two B&O (steam) locomotives built after 1900. Nobody did a better job of preserving or reproducing their antiquities as the B&O. On the other hand the PRR has left a legacy for generations in the "modern" steam equipment they preserved. The B&O cut up every EM1, S1, T3 and so on that they had. I wish the PRR had preserved a J1a, Q2, T1 but I am thankful for what they did preserve. Most other rail buffs only have photographs of their favorite steam era equipment. Those that follow the PRR have been blessed with preserved specimens. Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:42:12 -0500 From: Bob Zeolla Subject: Modeling Super Elevation Content-Length: 762 Hi All, I've gotten my bench work done, and am about to start setting my roadbed and track. I've decided to go with the pre-formed homosote roadbed. My question to the group is: What suggestions/proven methods can be offered for creating super elevation of the trackwork around curves. All help is much appreciated! Bob Zeolla ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: car weight Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:34:14 -0500 Content-Length: 1380 We had a guy who built a box car with a power chassis in it and would sneak it into the yard on the club layout. The hapless victim assigned the yard would be befuddled for a minute when his cut of cars would not behave correctly. Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 -----Original Message----- From: Robert A. Boyd >I am reminded of a character I knew out in California who had a cheap >plastic gondola car with load: underneath the load was solid lead shot and >the wheelsets had been crazyglued. He would slip this into a train at the >local club layout and we would all watch with amusement as the new motive >power hotrock of the day would struggle to get a 10 car consist over the >road with his brace of superdetailed, supertuned SDs. > >Gawd! I love this hobby! > > >Robert A. Boyd >Those Classic Trains >"Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: Saved Locomotives Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:57:35 -0500 Content-Length: 1792 Dec. 16th Robert A. Boyd wrote: When motive power was stricken from the roster, the road had two options: >sell it to another road (not common), or scrap it for the scrap value. It >was only fairly late on that the option to donate it to someone for the For my two cents: In the case of the diesel systems, a third option, trade-in value took a lot of the early first generation. Trucks, prime movers, electrical gear could be remanufactured and lower the cost of new purchases. A major concern for railroads. Steam did not lend itself well to this option and diesel electric locomotives were more expensive than steam to purchase. Remember the roads with Alco trucks under EMD's and other examples of cost containment? The PRR did not have any EMD FT's, but a lot of those went through the remanufacturing mill. This probably accounts for the few remaining examples (plus scraping) When it came to steam power, I am not aware of much that one could do to turn it into revenue other than what Bob mentioned. Sell used or for scrap value. In a post war economy, PR value had to be weighed with cash flow that a lot of the railroad industry was lacking at the time. It is a wonder that the volume of donations was as great as it was, all things considered. Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:33:45 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Saved Locomotives Content-Length: 1769 harry Fitch comments: >When motive power was stricken from the roster, the road had two options: >>sell it to another road (not common), or scrap it for the scrap value. It >>was only fairly late on that the option to donate it to someone for the > >For my two cents: > >In the case of the diesel systems, a third option, trade-in value took a lot >of the early first generation. Good Point! Overlooked that one; must be that if you've seen one stinkpot you've seen em all? >It is a wonder that the volume of donations was as great as it was, all things >considered. > I would not be surprised if we owe much of what we have to sheer hysteria. This tax deductable donation thing came along right about then and RR management (never one for being light on their feet) must have glommed onto a panacia and ridden it into the ground. It is amazing what happens when you substitute short sighted enthusiasms for cold hard logic. But then, if cold hard logic had prevailed, the last generation of steamers would only now be going to scrap. Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jpk815 Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:58:25 EST Subject: Switching switchers in N-Scale Content-Length: 959 Just popped into MB Klein's today to pick up my new PRR N-Scale Life-Like SW-9/1200... all I can say is wow... this is one of the most finely detailed locomotives I have ever seen. Looks great cruising through the yard past the Pennsy Main Line! ...and in a related note: FOR SALE: 1 PRR Con-Cor calf/cow set... used very lightly... custom (to prototype) paint on the grab irons (a nice job if i do say so myself). First $50.00 + S&H has it... e-mail me off list if interested. jpk815@aol.com J.P. Keese Alexandria, VA ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:52:45 -0500 From: "Vagel C. Keller" Subject: Re: EBT Content-Length: 4339 At 07:20 PM 12/16/97 -0500, bubbles@visi.net wrote: > > Since the subject of steam collections has come up...one that has'nt been > mentioned so far is the East Broad Top. Does anyone know how it is faring > these days...last i heard they were having a hard time keeping it going > and that they were still tring to get government help. > Does anyone know?...(I know it ain't PRR but they had a connection and > any steam saved is gotta be good) > The EBT is still operating, but it looks like all of the "government help" is about to dry up. The latest effort to transfer the EBT from private ownership to a public trust came to naught this summer when the owner decided not to sell. Apparently the owner is considering development of adjacent non-RR related mined-out coal lands as a way of generating investment capital, but his plans for expanding the current 5 mile operation over all or part of the remaining dormant line are unknown. There seems to be some coordination between the owner and the Southwestern Pennsylvania Heritage Preserveration Commission, which loses Fed. funding next year and will go "private", but that is very much confidential and I am not privy to those discussions. It is also possible that the EBT may be included in one of PA's planned regional heritage parks, but, again, that's subject to the political/economic agenda of Gov. Ridge, the so-called "tourism governor." The EBT had a relatively successful tourist season this year and, once again, this year, conducted its annual Fall Spectacular over the Columbus Day Weekend and it was, as ususal, a wonderful way to experience the EBT as a busy piece of railroading -- albeit tough to take "unobstructed" photographs. Four of the EBT's six mikes were in steam -- but the "girls" are starting to age and maintenance is very much on a "fix it when it breaks" basis. The small permanent staff -- a dedicated bunch, if ever there was one -- headed by general manager Stanley Hall, has worked wonders to keep trains running. The really bad news is that, with no surplus cash with which to keep up the EBT's priceless shops complex, those buildings continue to deteriorate at an accelerating rate. And the passenger rolling stock, dating to the late 19th Century, is badly in need of complete overhaul. The future of the EBT as a national treasure is very much in doubt. There are a number of web sites that cover the EBT. My own web page (see email signature, below) contains a couple short photo essays and a number of extensively researched, illustrated guides to various portions of the line, including the coal company towns and the Rockhill Furnace complex adjacent to the EBT's Rockhill shops complex. From my site, you can also connect to the official homepage of the Friends of the EBT, a non-profit society that is "dedicated to preserving and restoring" the line, but is not affiliated with the railroad directly ... www.usaor.net/users/vagelk/ebthome.htm Also, Chris Coleman maintains a very comprehensive web page on the EBT. A link to his site is also included via my homepage. Thanks for bringing up the subject of this wonderful Pennsylvania-esque narrow gauge shortline! Vagel Keller Pittsburgh, PA vagelk@usaor.net THE INDUSTRIAL HERITAGE HOMEPAGE http://www.usaor.net/users/vagelk _||_||_ || || || || || ||\ || || || || ||_||\\ /\_||__||__||__||_/\ \\ // \\ o x o x o x o . . . \/ \ \\ o _____ | | / \ >][_n_n_|HH] /====___ ________ ________ (_______|__]_[_______]_|\____/| |\____/| _/o OOOO o` oo oo 'oo oo' 'oo oo' ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:53:32 -0500 From: "Tom von Trott" Subject: Re: Saved locos Content-Length: 1844 There are at least a couple of steam locos saved that were not in the collection. I know for sure about B4a #643, but also I belive there are a couple of the later B's around (they are all B6 I think)? Shame no T's, maybe the online chapter should build a virtual T1! Tom von Trott *********** REPLY PARTITION *********** On 12/16/97, at 1:08 PM, SUVCW ORR wrote: >The steam locomotives which were saved were all part of the PRR's historical >collection. The diesels were for the most part non-PRR efforts. Why the T-1, >was never placed in the collection is a good but probably unanswerable >question. The Q's, S's and J's all went to scrap. These were scraped when >the PRR was cash poor and needed the money thus none were saved. As to why >the G-5 is in the collection -- it was almost as prolific a locomotive as the >K4s. The G-5 other wise know as the "Pittsburgh" engine was widely used on >Lines West and in Pittsburgh as a commuter locomotive. > >Rich Orr > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:21:53 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Catenary Content-Length: 882 List members, If you're looking for prototypical PRR catenary poles/bridges in HO scale, they're available from: Friedlein's Rail Replicas P.O. Box 262 Medford, OR 97501 They are the suburban style without the high tension cross arms, but they look great. Send SSAE to get illustrated price sheet and set of instructions showing how to install prefabricated catenary wire made by Sommerfeldt and also by (I think) Model Memories. Charlie Fox ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Modeling Super Elevation Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 06:42:14 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1181 On 12/16/97 9:42 PM, Bob Zeolla (zeolla@erols.com) wrote: >I've gotten my bench work done, and am about to start setting my roadbed >and track. I've decided to go with the pre-formed homosote roadbed. My >question to the group is: What suggestions/proven methods can be offered >for creating super elevation of the trackwork around curves. One source I read in the past year recommended multiple layers of masking tape under the outer edge. This allowed the SE to gradually build to the desired amount. Another used stripwood. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: SALE-Champ Decals! Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 06:49:09 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1467 I have just been approved as a Champ decal dealer. However, that requires me to submit a sizable initial order. Soooo, I am passing on an opportunity: Anyone who places and order with me as part of my initial order to Champ (January 15) will get a 20% discount off of Champ's published retail price. Shipping will be equal to that charged by Champ direct. The savings are even greater if you order Solvaset and their other similar products, as their direct price is higher than retail on these items. Please order by Champ part number and indicate quantity. Their catalog is online at http://www.minot.com/~champ/index.html. Orders should be mailed with check payable to "Desktop Solutions" to same at P.O. Box 189, #191; Etters PA 17319-0189. Make sure you mail it to arrive prior to 1/15/98!!! Thanks. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Modeling a POS211 Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 06:52:25 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1361 Good news for passenger modelers.. Union Station Products is working with me to produce "replacement" sides for the Rivarossi "boat-tailed" observation. The Rivarossi car -- which frequently appears on the eBay auction -- is a POS21 observation used on the "Broadway Limited". There were two such cars: "Tower View" and "Mountain View". There were seven of class POS211, which had a different internal and window arrangement. These were used on the other "blue ribbon" trains and were named after PRR presidents. Nobody else offers a model of these. By cutting away the Rivarossi sides and replacing with the USP sides, you'll have an accurate model. Look for the sides in February time frame. 8-) ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 7:16:39 EST From: Subject: RE: Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania & Steamtown Content-Length: 11814 A few more commetns on Steamtown. You forgot to mention that not only is Steamtown rebuilding steam locomotives but they are currently working on the venerable K4, #1361. The best part is that you can take a tour of the back shops and get to see the inner workings of the locomotive and how the back shops work. How often do you get to see lathes that can true a steam locomotive driver? Or the ka-zillion staybolts and boiler flue tubes? When I was there last about two months ago, the back of the boiler was off the locomotive and you could walk up to it and peer inside our infamous Belpaire boiler. The boiler back plate was damaged beyond repair so they were preparing to form a new one. The planned to lay the old one on the shop floor, then lay a new sheet of steel over it, heat the new sheet then use sledgehammers to beat to new piece into the shape of the old. They were even asking for volunteers to help with the process, No experience necessary! If only I lived closer. I don't know if I agree with you on the fact that one is better than the other. I too am a died in the wool PRR fan and wish that Steamtown had some kind of PRR equipment there. They are two very different museums. It depends on what you are looking for. It is well worth a visit. Here's where I digress just a bit. When there don't forget to visit the Lakawanna train station and for those of you interested in traction the county is building a new trolley museum across the parking lot from Steamtown. Plus there is an added benefit for those of us with spouses that don't particularly care for trains (How dare they!!) There is a cat-walk that connects Steamtown with the Steamtown Mall. Oh yeah one more thing, when there plan to go to the Lackawanna coal mine tour/museum. Absolutely outstanding. Get a real taste of what its like to mine the black diamonds that brought so much industry, diversity and then financial hardship to Northeastern Pennsylvania. Enough of my advertisement for Scranton and the region. Kris Kollar ------------- Original Text From: Doug Drew , on 12/16/97 9:20 AM: Haven't been to the Railroaders' Museum at Altoona, yet. Been to Steamtown and Strasburg. They are two different animals, really. Strasburg is far and away the better of the two, for the Pennsy fan -- and since they have all the PRR's historical collection, they OUGHT to be!!! It almost brings a lump to one's throat, to think that PRR had enough sense of itself and its history that they felt it important to preserve at least one of each major type of locomotive and many representative cars, for future generations to appreciate -- how many other railroads did this (OK, UP, but not to the extent PRR did). It's a damned shame they didn't save a T1 or Q2, though. Steamtown is definitely worth at least one visit, on a weekend (the ride behind steam up the Poconos is only on weekends, weekdays is a short tour of the yard up to the Scranton depot/hotel behind their 0-6-0). Your reaction to it might be based on your expectations. I used to go to the Bellows Falls operation a lot, which was pretty amateur-hour in comparison to the Scranton setup. Scranton, in comparison, amazed me with its professionalism. Of course, Scranton has had the benefit of Uncle Sam's deep pockets, courtesy of Rep. McDade, and it shows. It's really something to see what they had to work with (DL&W's Scranton shops, abandoned for decades and gone back to nature, trees growing through the roundhouse roof, etc.), and what they were able to turn it into. The two-floor museum is beautifully-designed and interesting, though a tad light on artifacts. They have a terrific operating HO model of the Scranton yard and shop complex, in the glory days of steam, with appropriate brass models of DL&W power. The part that most impressed me is they're actually rebuilding and maintaining steam locomotives there, and you get to watch, via an elevated walkway around the perimeter of the roundhouse. The Park Service also gives informative tours of the rest of the shops, the locomotive back shop and the car shop, both with several pieces under restoration. And of course, there's the ride behind steam... The only down note is a lot of their collection is stored inaccessible to the general public, and they get politely upset with people like me who go under the chains... Hope this helps... -- Doug Drew Jerry_Britton wrote: >Went to Strasburg on Saturday, with my five year old daughter. This was >my third visit over the past eighteen months. I am only an hour away. > >The museum had a "Home for the Holidays" theme going, with volunteers in >period dress and free cookies, coffee, and hot chocolate for visitors. >Met David Dunn, the new director. > >Highlight was that several pieces of stock were opened for viewing that >normally aren't. These include: "Lotos Club" (Pullman Company, >restaurant-sleeper, built 1913, rebuilt 1936, Plan No. 4025D); No. 203 >(Western Maryland Railway, Business Car, built Pullman Company, 1914, >Plan No. 2793); an N5C cabin car, an RPO, and a GP9. The later was more >of a thrill for the young'n! > >Museum is looking really good and I highly recommend a visit for those >who haven't been there yet. Blows away Altoona; I haven't been to >Steamtown, however. FWIW, the Strasburg museum is largely PRR; Steamtown >is not. > >--------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com >Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com >Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------ Haven't been to the Railroaders' Museum at Altoona, yet. Been to Steamtown and Strasburg.
They are two different animals, really.
Strasburg is far and away the better of the two, for the Pennsy fan -- and since they have all the PRR's historical collection, they OUGHT to be!!! It almost brings a lump to one's throat, to think that PRR had enough sense of itself and its history that they felt it important to preserve at least one of each major type of locomotive and many representative cars, for future generations to appreciate -- how many other railroads did this (OK, UP, but not to the extent PRR did). It's a damned shame they didn't save a T1 or Q2, though.
Steamtown is definitely worth at least one visit, on a weekend (the ride behind steam up the Poconos is only on weekends, weekdays is a short tour of the yard up to the Scranton depot/hotel behind their 0-6-0). Your reaction to it might be based on your expectations. I used to go to the Bellows Falls operation a lot, which was pretty amateur-hour in comparison to the Scranton setup. Scranton, in comparison, amazed me with its professionalism. Of course, Scranton has had the benefit of Uncle Sam's deep pockets, courtesy of Rep. McDade, and it shows. It's really something to see what they had to work with (DL&W's Scranton shops, abandoned for decades and gone back to nature, trees growing through the roundhouse roof, etc.), and what they were able to turn it into. The two-floor museum is beautifully-designed and interesting, though a tad light on artifacts. They have a terrific operating HO model of the Scranton yard and shop complex, in the glory days of steam, with appropriate brass models of DL&W power.
The part that most impressed me is they're actually rebuilding and maintaining steam locomotives there, and you get to watch, via an elevated walkway around the perimeter of the roundhouse. The Park Service also gives informative tours of the rest of the shops, the locomotive back shop and the car shop, both with several pieces under restoration. And of course, there's the ride behind steam...
The only down note is a lot of their collection is stored inaccessible to the general public, and they get politely upset with people like me who go under the chains...
Hope this helps...
-- Doug Drew
Jerry_Britton wrote:
>Went to Strasburg on Saturday, with my five year old daughter. This was
>my third visit over the past eighteen months. I am only an hour away.
>
>The museum had a "Home for the Holidays" theme going, with volunteers in
>period dress and free cookies, coffee, and hot chocolate for visitors.
>Met David Dunn, the new director.
>
>Highlight was that several pieces of stock were opened for viewing that
>normally aren't. These include: "Lotos Club" (Pullman Company,
>restaurant-sleeper, built 1913, rebuilt 1936, Plan No. 4025D); No. 203
>(Western Maryland Railway, Business Car, built Pullman Company, 1914,
>Plan No. 2793); an N5C cabin car, an RPO, and a GP9. The later was more
>of a thrill for the young'n!
>
>Museum is looking really good and I highly recommend a visit for those
>who haven't been there yet. Blows away Altoona; I haven't been to
>Steamtown, however. FWIW, the Strasburg museum is largely PRR; Steamtown
>is not.
>
>---------------------------------------------------
>Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com
>Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com
>Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a
>cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html .
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Robert Johnston Subject: Re: PRRMOdular Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:49:16 -0500 Content-Length: 1399 We need at least 10 people. So far, I have heard interest [Robert Johnston] While the construction of a module would give me a small focused project before I start "RobWorld"; I hesitate until I see how the Cyber Chapter idea works out. A module lonesome and by itself is really of little use to me. I would be very interested in building a module representative of the area west of Altoona, and east of Pittsburgh. However, given that some of my favorite motive power ( a brass T1, a highly detailed/kitbashed ABBA consist of AHM FM C Liners, and a similarly treated Rocco AB consist of Baldwin Shark Nose) is 'high rail'. I am disinclined to participate if code 83 rail is used. While is is true that the T1 was relatively rare in the area I prefer and the deisels would be easily re-wheeld, it ain't one of my druthers... I would make the argument that code 100 rail, when weathered and ballisted properly, doesn't look that much worse that code 83. TIA rwj ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:05:45 EST Subject: PRR station photos on line Content-Length: 1133 Hey guys, Don West of Kent, Ohio, has posted photos I've shot of Depots nears mes "Ohio's Existing Railroad Stations" web site at http://w3.gwis.com/~west/exist.htm My work is on the Southwest Ohio photo page. I've got shots of the Panhandle stations stations in Brookvile, Troitwood and Urbana and of the CL&N depot in Kettering; the DT&I station next to the diamonds on the Panhandle Columbus Div.. at South Charleston (that's I&O #81, an ex-N&W GP30); the B&O and Big Four stations at Miamisburg and the Cincinnati Northern depot at Franklin. I've not checked out the other photo pages but I know Don's goy shotss of other Pennsy Depots posted. This is a great site. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Modeling a POS211 From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 09:08:35 -0500 Content-Length: 2060 Jerry, You and USP are undercutting all my formerly unique models! I had kit bashed SAMUEL REA many years ago from a Rivarossi obs and parts from a 10-6. Now everyone will have one, and without R's deep-set windows! Merry Xmas anyway ;-) Andy - -------- Good news for passenger modelers.. Union Station Products is working with me to produce "replacement" sides for the Rivarossi "boat-tailed" observation. The Rivarossi car -- which frequently appears on the eBay auction -- is a POS21 observation used on the "Broadway Limited". There were two such cars: "Tower View" and "Mountain View". There were seven of class POS211, which had a different internal and window arrangement. These were used on the other "blue ribbon" trains and were named after PRR presidents. Nobody else offers a model of these. By cutting away the Rivarossi sides and replacing with the USP sides, you'll have an accurate model. Look for the sides in February time frame. 8-) - ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! - ----------------------------------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------ Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . - ------------------------------------------------------------ For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRRMOdular Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 09:36:32 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1896 On 12/17/97 9:49 AM, Robert Johnston (rjohns3@ibm.net) wrote: >I would make the argument that code 100 rail, when weathered and ballisted >properly, doesn't look that much worse that code 83. I previously used code 100, but changed to code 83 for my new layout. However, to keep things simple and compatible with the widest variety of equipment, I would recommend we use code 100 as well. As for "who's in"...let's first assume that we can proceed with a modular layout with or without establishing a cyber chapter. Second, let's set the standards before individual commitments are made. I believe Bruce Smith is working on this. I would recommend that we adopt as much as we can from the existing NMRA modular specs as we can (construction materials, wiring, etc.) and then modify as needed. We discussed centering the track within the module for better scenic impact, as well as allowing for up to four tracks. As for modeling, I would be willing to build a module. However, I don't want to commit to a locale until the standards are agreed upon and we have a general idea of the shape of layout and number of modules we need. Perhaps I'd volunteer a straight through (boring) yard section since I will have a home layout to do "neat" things on. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:18:04 EST Subject: Re: Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania Content-Length: 503 Doug, did you get an update on the K4 restoration while at Steamtown? Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Modeling Super Elevation (fwd) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 9:42:13 EST Content-Length: 1715 > I've gotten my bench work done, and am about to start setting my roadbed > and track. I've decided to go with the pre-formed homosote roadbed. My > question to the group is: What suggestions/proven methods can be offered > for creating super elevation of the trackwork around curves. > All help is much appreciated! > > Bob Zeolla Bob, all the modelling literature I've seen states that model dynamics are such that superelevation is not necessary, and that it is strictly an appearance issue. It _may_ be a maintenance headache, too. I've found that the thickness of a tie on the ouside of the curve is seems about right. I can't quote numbers for you, and surely the prototype used increasing superelevation for increasing curvature. I'd love to see a table somewhere. I _can_ tell you that those Silverliners sure used to tilt a lot at the Middletown, Pa. station (on a curve), surely more than 10 degrees. At any rate, the simple solution is to place crossties in a line along the outside of the curve, under and perpendicular to the outer edge of crossties of that track. Make sure you do each track separately, and that the ballast follows the track profile. I.e., on curves, the ballast should have a sawtooth cross-sectional profile. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:55:39 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: 1940's PRR Rolling Stock Resources Content-Length: 3715 Greetings to Norton and the group, Probably the best source of information would be a copy of _The Official Railway Equipment Register_ (ORER) for the year or years of interest. The problem though is they are VERY difficult to find, especially ones for the 40s. The _ORER_ lists all of the types of cars available for revenue service in the year it was printed. In 1996, the NMRA produced a reprint of the January 1953 _ORER_. This may be of some help though the _ORER_ does not list built dates. Until 1943, the _ORER_ included passenger equipment. From then on a separate publication, _Register of Passenger Train Equipment_ was printed each year. I'm hoping the NMRA will produce a 50s reprint of this document also. More modern books include the two Morning Sun Books _PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment_. The first one by Sweetland and Yanosey was printed in 1992. Volume two, by Fischer, was printed in 1996. These books have nice color pictures of single examples of various classes of PRR equipment. The captions provide the details. Other books you find helpful include Rosembaum's and Gallo's _The Broadway Limited_. It was printed in 1988 by railpace and deals specifically with the Broadway Limited. Some information though is provided about other crack PRR "Fleet of Modernism" trains like the General and Spirit of St Louis. In 1984, NJ International produced _PRR Heavyweight Passenger Plan and Photo Book_. _The Official Pullman-Standard Library Volume 4 PRR_, by Randall and Ross was printed in 1988 by Railway Production Clasics. Unfortunatly, I believe this book is out of print at this time. The PRR T&HS produced _PRR Passenger Car Painting and Lettering_ in 1988. It was written by Blardone and Tilp. For passenger car details, this is a must have. Another book that might be a bit less helpful for the time frame you are interested but never the less may provide some information include The Middle Division's _PRR Compendium Volume 2 PRR Freight Car Lettering Arrangements 1954-1968_. It is by Kasner and Seman and printed in 1989. Though out of print and hard to find, Wyner Publication's _PRR Passenger and Freight Car Diagrams_ is useful if you can determine built dates from other sources. It provides no built or conversion dates. For the books out of print, try the train shows, especially those sponcered by groups interested in the PRR. Also try your local public library. If you live in a "railroad" town, they may have a nice collection of railroad related books. A large research university may have some of these titles. This would be a good place to look for the _ORER_. Hope this rather long message provided some helpful information. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA >At 12:47 PM 12/15/97 EST, Norton WRC wrote: >I am modelling the PRR during the 1940's, specifically the electrified lines. >Has someone published a book that has information/pictures of the various >passenger and freight rolling stock used during that time period? Since I >wasn't around in the '40's, I need a guide as to what rolling stock and paint >schemes were used so I can figure out what models should appear on my >railroad. >Are there such resources and which is the best? > >Thanks, >Andy Norton ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRRMOdular Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 09:59:24 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 765 snip... I would make the argument that code 100 rail, when weathered and = ballisted properly, doesn't look that much worse that code 83. TIA rwj I think that code 100 rail is actually very close to the PRR's heavy mainline rail anyway. I forget what pound rail code 100 scales into but I thought it was 150 lb. or so. Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 10:01:25 EST From: Subject: re: Modeling Super Elevation Content-Length: 1441 Bob, Model Railroader just did an article on super elevating flextrack. Look in their September 1997 edition, pg. 9. It has some pretty good tips. Kris Kollar ------------- Original Text From: Bob Zeolla , on 12/16/97 8:42 PM: Hi All, I've gotten my bench work done, and am about to start setting my roadbed and track. I've decided to go with the pre-formed homosote roadbed. My question to the group is: What suggestions/proven methods can be offered for creating super elevation of the trackwork around curves. All help is much appreciated! Bob Zeolla ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:13:07 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Modeling Super Elevation Content-Length: 2594 Bob Zeolla wrote: > > Hi All, > > I've gotten my bench work done, and am about to start setting my roadbed > and track. I've decided to go with the pre-formed homosote roadbed. My > question to the group is: What suggestions/proven methods can be offered > for creating super elevation of the trackwork around curves. > > All help is much appreciated! > Bob, and all: A method of roadbed construction that lends itself well to superelevation is the spline base described by Orv Dunn in Model Railroader in 1967. I have used it since since that time and just finished more last week. It uses three strips of 1/4 inch spline ripped from 1 in. lumber (3/4 in. actual) spaced with small blocks of wood. I support it on blocks of wood attached to risers, making it easy to adjust both elevation and superelevation. I have an old adjustable level I use to set the degree of superelevation. On top of that I attach Homasote roadbed. The risers and support pieces are fastened with # 10 wood screws, the splines are fastened down with 1 1/2 x # 16 wire brads. I predrill the spline for the brads at the time of fastening with a 1/16 in twist drill. All the spline, blocks, and Homasote are glued with Tite-Bond. I cut the Homasote full width (3 in. for O scale), chamfer the edges for the ballast slope, and notch it almost all the way actross for bending. I have on occasion used two-piece homasote. With that you have to make SURE the center spline is not higher than the others or it will be crowned in the middle. You need a table saw for this work, and Homasote is very advisedly cut outdoors only, even with a vacuum attachment. There's more to it than that; please let me know if you have more questions. Bottom line, it is an easy way to set up superelevation. I have also used strips of wood under the outer edge of the Homasote when working on a solid wood surface, tapered as necessary to ramp up the elevation. Seven inch superelevation has been used in the past. I think it is pretty much limited to 6 inches these days. Even half that is visually effective. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Saved Locomotives Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 10:26:05 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 915 >So what got saved, or not, was entirely a matter of circumstances. No >DD-1s were saved because they were obscure units that no one thought about. >T-1s were not saved because they were failures (we don't think of them >that way today, but that was the fact of the case). >Robert A. Boyd a pair of DD-1's (#'s 3936-3937) was saved and went to Strasburg. This was probably because they were used on work trains in the Hudson River tunnels until the 60's. Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:57:30 -0500 (EST) From: Roger Kirkpatrick Subject: Return addresses Content-Length: 1239 I have received several requests for copies of the CR/PC/PRR combined cabin/caboose list from folks, like Rick Siller, whose mail program does NOT include their e-mail address in the heading! Makes for a hard request to honor. Return addresses are a must if after the cabin list you lust! Cheers, Roger, kirkpatr@marietta.edu _______ S. Roger Kirkpatrick ______|_____| [ ] |___________ 927 Colegate Drive | | | | Marietta, OH 45750 | | [ ] [ ] | | | | | | Fax - 614-376-4777 |__|______________________|__| Home - 614-374-6732 O<=>O O<=>O ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: building a steam engine today.. Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 10:58:50 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1205 Hi, I managed to delete the original message about dreaming of building a new PRR engine... Ok, so a T1 would probably be stretching it quite a bit but from what I've heard, the Strasburg RR is building from the ground up a small 4-4-0 ("Golden Spike"-era) from some western railroad. I don't have any details though. One industry that does have the large metalworking equiptment is shipbuilding. That's why most of Steamtown's equiptment is from the Navy. (Ok, so the price was right also...) So, it's not out of the realm of possibility. Now who's buying the lottery tickets! Of course, I'd rather see all of the many steamers still in existance restored first! Rob Schoenberg -------------- visit my PRR pages at http://www.internexus.net/~robs/PRR ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 11:41:35 EST From: Subject: X-29 boxcars Content-Length: 1724 Greeting all, I've almost completed assembly of the Red Caboose X-29 boxcar and I must say it is probably the finest plastic piece of rolling stock I have ever built. The details are incredible (albeit fragile). Have your tweezers and jeweler's loop handy since there are many microscopic pieces. But I see a potential problem area. The trucks that are included in the kit could be troublesome and I wanted to get feedback from anyone else who may be already operating them on their layout or has knowledge of their operation. The trucks are assembled from three separate pieces. The bolster and left/right side frames. The side frames snap in place on the bolster but they rotate slightly, maybe a 1/16" of travel (per side frame). Does anyone know if this is supposed to be this way? Should they be glued in place? And since they are made from slippery engineering plastic can anyone suggest a glue that would work, superglue does not. If left as is I suspect they would cause repeated derailings. (Can't test my theory since I don't have a layout yet) I'd prefer not to replace them since they have PRR in raised letters on the sideframe. Also what is the official PRR freight car color and who makes the closest match? Regards, Kris Kollar ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: Saved Locomotives Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:03:18 -0600 Content-Length: 1699 Robert Boyd wrote: "I am sure there were no regrets for the passing of those $*#@& Centipedes that leak oil all over the floor! When motive power was striken from the roster, the road had two options: sell it to another road (not common), or scrap it for the scrap value." This is a repeat of a post I did on the LDSIG talk line, but in 1965 I lived in LaGrange Park, IL, and could watch the Indiana Harbor Belt from my breakfast room window, a distance of about 200 feet. At that point, there was a siding, I believe interchange with CB&Q, where trade-in locos for McCook (EMD) were set out. All kinds of first generation units of all roads were setout there, Cotton Belt F's, etc., Now comes the sickening part. The Centipedes were set out there for whatever value the components had to EMD. And yours truly looked at, but as a poor (at that time) young father of four, did not have a decent camera to photograph, these units in all their details.. (long sigh). EMD may have not used a thing from the BH-50's--just used the trade-in to induce PRR to buy new units from them--anyone on the line know? Or do you believe in reincarnation and some SD-35 had Baldwin parts in it ? Any with excessive oil leaks? :-) Regards, Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: Modeling Super Elevation Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:08:59 -0600 Content-Length: 894 On our club we used 1/8" steel rod under roadbed on outside edge and puttied in with dry wall compound. Unfortunately when I asked where we got it, noone knew. It was just scrap material someone had laying around. Looks beautiful and works fine. One caveat. It sure makes those guys in the club who don't fine tune and weight their cars to recommendation sit up and take notice when their string of featherweight cars stringlines on the curves. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:10:54 -0500 (EST) From: Roger Kirkpatrick Subject: Re: Saved locos Content-Length: 1256 Please excuse my ignorance on the PRR steam loco topic as I am a cabin chaser. The following have some sort of link to the PRR: B6sa #60, private, stored in Hockessin, DE; I1sa #4483, WNYRHS, Hamburg, NY; 2-6-0ng, 9684, Greene Co. Hist. Mus., Waynesburg, PA. I hope this is of some interest. Cheers, Roger, always behind the train _______ S. Roger Kirkpatrick ______|_____| [ ] |___________ 927 Colegate Drive | | | | Marietta, OH 45750 | | [ ] [ ] | | | | | | Fax - 614-376-4777 |__|______________________|__| Home - 614-374-6732 O<=>O O<=>O ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:15:55 EST Subject: PRR Diesels Content-Length: 822 About two weeks ago someone e-mailed asking if I would provide them a copy of the diesel files which Jerry has posted on his site. I tried several times to send these but the files were rejected because of size. Now I have lost the address of the person who requested these. Please contact me again. Sorry for posting to the list. Its the only way I can contact the requester. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:24:13 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: Catenary Content-Length: 1852 > Hi... > BTW..There was a good article on making Catenary in one of the magazines > this past year...catenary for the Virginian but very close to PRR type. > Might have been Main line Modeler...not sure. > The article was in N-Scale, and yes, the catenary was N-scale. I was dumbfounded by the incredible catenary shown, and said, "hey if they can do it in N, even I can do it in HO!". I have yet to actually start building, but boy the article made it look nice!!!! Happy soldering! Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** "The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four Americans is suffering from some form of mental illness. Think of your three best friends. If they are okay, then it's you." - Rita Mae Brown _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: More on engines Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:28:58 -0600 Content-Length: 1232 > And if (a big if)could a NEW locomotive be built from those plans? say > if some crazy millionare were to want one built or some scenerio such > as that...? I always figured if I won the lottery I would wind up divorced because I would try and do such a thing. Actually, I would start small and merely refurbish the GG1 at the Illinois Railway Museum at Union, IL. I would be content to even see a fiberglass full-size replica of a T1, rigged to have drivers operating (ala S1 at 1939 New York world's fair). We would have the two engine sets operating, independently of course, so a computer program could insert random slipping on one engine set :-) BTW, are the I1 and M1a locos saved in condition where, with money, they could be restored to operating mode, like the 1361? Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: PRRMOdular Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:33:23 -0600 Content-Length: 850 Robert Johnston wrote: >I would make the argument that code 100 rail, when weathered and >ballisted properly, doesn't look that much worse that code 83. I truly love the appearance of properly ballasted and weathered code 83 and wouldn't have anything else on a permanent layout, but I have to admit code 100 is more forgiving for modules and the kind of on and off operation that goes on in such meets. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 14:55:55 CST Subject: Super-elevating track Content-Length: 1014 Hi, all, In my experience super-elevation is prototypical and looks neat BUT has created operating problems on my layout. That may be due to the relatively tight curves - in HO, 24" - but it's also caused uneven wear on steam loco drivers and you really have to fine-tune things like lead two-axle trucks on steamers, like my Bowser M1a. I use broken pieces of Atlas ties but have taken out most of my super-elevation due to the above problems. PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:56:45 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: RE: On Ebay now: Baldwin 2,400hp Center Cab Transfer Content-Length: 1158 >Here I go again, without my sources in front of me,but I also believe a >Lima (not Baldwin) unit was stationed at 59th street in Chicago at one >time. > >Bob Zoeller ===== Longer ago than I care to think about, I was in the Chicago area (at Great Lakes Boot Camp) and happened to see one of the Baldwin center cabs on the E J & E. That is one of the really intreging things about this hobby: 15 seconds exposure, a life time of vivid memory! Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: Saved Locomotives Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:28:49 -0500 Content-Length: 1905 H.Mummert Wrote: >>Hi... > You ever notice that on some of the PRR's diesel switchers the have > steam type bells on them...Hmmm i wonder where they came from... > perhaps off of scrapped steam? could it be? to save money. > In Baltimore there are/ or were whistles at each end of the tunnels > for emergencies...this i think also came off scrapped engines... > and not to mention stuff that was salvaged and used on M of W equipment > especially old steam tenders..btw...any of those left? > Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that the bells that went on the E44 Electrics came from steam salvage. Also on the note of later steam. Remember that when roads used little steam power that dead lines were used as parts departments. There is only one eventuality with using cannibalization to maintain a fleet. That is the elimination of the fleet. The last steam power that Altoona did shopping's on were the J1's in 1957. This was at the cost of the siblings who gave up their parts. ( Featured in a "Pennsy" mag article) The J's served as helpers on the hill and did an admiral job. We all know what happens to whatever pushes on the hill don't we? In the last gasp of steam here in the States, the support companies that built the appliances used by steam were also in transition or out of business. The hand writing was on the wall in more ways than one. Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 20:32:23 -0500 From: "David J. Wartell" Subject: Re: Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania Content-Length: 1755 I agree with you Jerry. I have been to Steamtown, but it was so long ago it was still in Bellows Falls, VT. The difference as has been pointed out by others is that Strasburg contains most of the Pennsy Historical Collection (a couple of engines did go elsewhere). For a Pennsy fan that means the others don't stand a chance. >Went to Strasburg on Saturday, with my five year old daughter. This was >my third visit over the past eighteen months. I am only an hour away. > >The museum had a "Home for the Holidays" theme going, with volunteers in >period dress and free cookies, coffee, and hot chocolate for visitors. >Met David Dunn, the new director. > >Highlight was that several pieces of stock were opened for viewing that >normally aren't. These include: "Lotos Club" (Pullman Company, >restaurant-sleeper, built 1913, rebuilt 1936, Plan No. 4025D); No. 203 >(Western Maryland Railway, Business Car, built Pullman Company, 1914, >Plan No. 2793); an N5C cabin car, an RPO, and a GP9. The later was more >of a thrill for the young'n! > >Museum is looking really good and I highly recommend a visit for those >who haven't been there yet. Blows away Altoona; I haven't been to >Steamtown, however. FWIW, the Strasburg museum is largely PRR; Steamtown >is not. > Dave Wartell djwartel@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:08:27 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: 1940's PRR Rolling Stock Resources Content-Length: 1043 SUVCW ORR wrote: > > Andy: > > If you narrow down the date to early, mid or late 40's I can provide > freight > car information regrading the various classes and their relative > numbers. > > As to the paint scheme. The circle Keystone was the predominant > scheme in the > 40's. A few no hearld cars were still present in the early 40's. The > shadow > Keystone did not come to be unitl 1954 and the plain Keystone arrived > in > 1962. > > Rich Orr > Can anybody give me 1930 era freight car infomration? -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:54:47 -0500 From: Zeolla Subject: Position signals Content-Length: 913 Tonight, while driving home on the NJ Turnpike, I noticed a set of position signals on the NEC mainline that parallels the turnpike just outside of the tunnels under the Hudson. I'm not an expert on these lights, but I think that vertical means "clear", horizontal means "stop", and diagonal means "caution"(?). What I found unusual was that one of the signals was diagonal and flashing. Is this normal? What does it signify? Is it an Amtrak thing or did the PRR do the same? ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:37:19 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: More on engines Content-Length: 2656 >In a message dated 97-12-16 12:19:42 EST, bubbles@visi.net writes: > > were any molds (for steam locomotive parts) saved? Actually, this is the least of your worries. These patterns would be made of wood; which will require some careful building to prevent warpage, but is not all that big a deal from a mechanical standpoint. The great bulk of the parts of any steam locomotive were cast steel, which was done as sand castings. This is not at all the same thing as iron casting! (I have known people who do iron casting, and I presently know several who do jewelry casting) Steel has to get very hot to melt and has to be poured in a controlled manner to prevent chill warping (plus you have to use an inert atmosphere with some steels). The big problem is sheer size: a cast steel frame for a T-1 would be something over 60 feet long, 10 feet wide and about 4 feet tall. Your best bet at this late date would be a shipyard (I think we still have a few) who can put you in touch with their suppliers of enormous steel castings. I recall a photo many moons ago of a hydroelectric dam generator core being forged: the thing was 15 feet in diameter! I believe it was done by one of the big steel makers. Boilers, of course, are a challenge, but there are still boiler makers around who do stationary plant work. Nooter Boiler co here in St. Louis might be big enough for the task. As for the tender, that's just sheet metal work. The technology is still here, although not as widespread as before. The only problem would be the cost for a one-off. I would wager the delivered price for a brand spanking new T-1 at several million dollars. > is'nt the old Baldwin subsidary General Steel Castings still around? Well, I can tell you for a fact that Scullen Steel Castings Corp here in St. Louis is no longer in existance: their former factory site out on Manchester road is now a shopping mall! Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 18 Dec 97 08:56:16 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: Modeling Super Elevation (fwd) Content-Length: 2530 --====55555149495552515755===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Mark D Bej wrote: Make sure you do each track separately, and >that the ballast follows the track profile. I.e., on curves, the >ballast should have a sawtooth cross-sectional profile. In scrutinizing ground-level shots of Horse Shoe Curve in the 60's, it seems the profile on The Broad Way in this region was done differently than Mark states above. While all tracks are superelevated on the curve, the two inside tracks seem to be on the same horizontal plane, and so are the two outside tracks, making two 'teeth' of the saw, rather than four as one might expect. Has anyone seen any PRR diagrams on how to handle superelevation and ballasting on four-track main lines such as this, that can verify how it was done? Could the sharpness of the particular curvature have something to do with it? --====55555149495552515755===1 From: Mark D Bej Subject: RE: Modeling Super Elevation (fwd) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 9:55:31 EST Content-Length: 1462 > In scrutinizing ground-level shots of Horse Shoe Curve in the 60's, it > seems the profile on The Broad Way in this region was done differently than > Mark states above. While all tracks are superelevated on the curve, the > two inside tracks seem to be on the same horizontal plane, and so are the > two outside tracks, making two 'teeth' of the saw, rather than four as one > might expect. > > Has anyone seen any PRR diagrams on how to handle superelevation and > ballasting on four-track main lines such as this, that can verify how it was > done? Could the sharpness of the particular curvature have something to do > with it? I have such stuff at home, salvaged from JACKS tower before it was torn down. On my list of stuff to scan and Webify. It's those PRR standards sheets ... actually, the one on superelevation may be in that book of 57 standard plans published by ?Kalmbach in paperback form. This book is all PRR stuff and should (IMHO) be in the posession of every modeler on this list. :-) -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: X-29 boxcars Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 10:13:39 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 2601 >Greeting all, > >I've almost completed assembly of the Red Caboose X-29 boxcar and I must >say it is probably the finest plastic piece of rolling stock I have ever >built. The details are incredible (albeit fragile). Have your tweezers >and jeweler's loop handy since there are many microscopic pieces. But I >see a potential problem area. The trucks that are included in the kit >could be troublesome and I wanted to get feedback from anyone else who may >be already operating them on their layout or has knowledge of their >operation. > >The trucks are assembled from three separate pieces. The bolster and >left/right side frames. The side frames snap in place on the bolster but >they rotate slightly, maybe a 1/16" of travel (per side frame). Does >anyone know if this is supposed to be this way? Should they be glued in >place? And since they are made from slippery engineering plastic can >anyone suggest a glue that would work, superglue does not. If left as is I >suspect they would cause repeated derailings. (Can't test my theory since >I don't have a layout yet) I'd prefer not to replace them since they have >PRR in raised letters on the sideframe. > >Also what is the official PRR freight car color and who makes the closest >match? >Regards, > >Kris Kollar I agree that these trucks can be troublesome. I built up a dozen or so cars with these truck so far. Most of them seem to work w/o problems but at least one self destructs going over switches etc... One alternative is to replace them with the Kadee version of the same trucks. I toyed with this but came up with a fix to make the Red Caboose trucks work well... What I did was to assemble the trucks and then drill a small (.020") hole through both the bolster and pin on the sideframe. I then put a piece of .019" wire through the hole. This holds the sideframe tightly into the bolster and keeps the wheelsets from falling out! I made the holes through the bolster slightly eliptical so that the sideframes can pivot slightly also. So far I've done this to 6-8 cars and now they run just as well as one-piece trucks! Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:31:13 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: Saved locos Content-Length: 1900 >Please excuse my ignorance on the PRR steam loco topic as I am a cabin >chaser. The following have some sort of link to the PRR: > > B6sa #60, private, stored in Hockessin, DE; > > I1sa #4483, WNYRHS, Hamburg, NY; The I1sa (The ONLY one) has been stored for a number of years. Several groups have tried to get it moved. In the latest Keystone, the board of the Strasbourg museum indicated that obtaining this locomotive for the collection was a priority for 1998. In addition, restoration to operation was mentioned! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** "The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four Americans is suffering from some form of mental illness. Think of your three best friends. If they are okay, then it's you." - Rita Mae Brown _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:35:56 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: PRRMOdular Content-Length: 3723 >Already working on a Module that would allow me to model three elements of the >PRR Co.: the PCC&StL, the DT&I and gray hound: its South Charleston, Ohio, the >post 1953 passenger stop on the Columbus Division "passenger line" for >Springfield-bound PRR passengers via Greyhound bus fom the South Charleston >depot. >The DT&I diamonds and interchange allow connection with Springfield branch to >permit non stop running. O.K. - I'll put this on a forming list, and hopefully a web page by the new year (hmm, maybe I should take the laptop to Costa Rica for that christmas vacation - I could build the pages while sitting on the beach!) >My design is so simple that I don't need a diagram. It is ssimply two loops, >one with a single- and dounle=ytacked mainlinerepresenting Lines West. There >would be a four tracked loop, possibly all under catenary, representing Lines >East.betewwen them would a single city/yard module called Pittsburgh.. Scenery >on the Lines West module woulgenerally bee level,on the lines east mountainous >orcity. IFrom over head the plan would look like adumbell. Got it! Interesting idea - either, or both 2 and 4 track loops could be used, depending on modules showing up, and if both were used, trains could run through the central yard and therefore cover both the 2 and 4 track sides of the layout! >Gee, the engineering problenms associated with a modular catenary layout must >be difficult. Well...yes, as I said, I had some IDEAS...nothing reduced to practice . Although the basic concept would go something like this: Catenary poles at 12" intervals starting at 6" (18", 30", 42" from that end). The catenary itself would be something like Sommerfeld - fairly rigid, and each module junction would require attacment points for two "spans" at each end pole, just like a block on the real thing! One span would attach to the catenary from one module and the other to catenary from the next. This would allow the pans to transition from one section to the next without any hangups. | 6" 18" 30" 42"| + | + + + + | + ----------======------------------======------------ ----------======------------------======------------ + | + + + + | + module | module | module Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** "The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four Americans is suffering from some form of mental illness. Think of your three best friends. If they are okay, then it's you." - Rita Mae Brown _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:28:04 EST Subject: Re: PRRMOdular Content-Length: 2398 In a message dated 97-12-18 08:39:57 EST, you write: << As for "who's in"...let's first assume that we can proceed with a modular layout with or without establishing a cyber chapter. Second, let's set the standards before individual commitments are made. I believe Bruce Smith is working on this. I would recommend that we adopt as much as we can from the existing NMRA modular specs as we can (construction materials, wiring, etc.) and then modify as needed. We discussed centering the track within the module for better scenic impact, as well as allowing for up to four tracks. As for modeling, I would be willing to build a module. However, I don't want to commit to a locale until the standards are agreed upon and we have a general idea of the shape of layout and number of modules we need. Perhaps I'd volunteer a straight through (boring) yard section since I will have a home layout to do "neat" things on. >> Amen on PRRMOdular being distinct from the Cybere Chapter, and the modeling SIG, Lines West SIG etc. each of these effort deserves the full attenion of a core group working toward a goal. Nearly every H.O. modular standard I've read specifies code 100 to insure all locomotives can operate on it. Any smaller and we'd have problems with oldeeer European produced motive power. What I want to know is how ya'll are going to do modular catenary (I'll be on the lines West loop). That's something I've never seen. I can't see a PRRMOdular layout without catenary, fully operational catenary should be our goal. If we achieve this monumental break, it'll get PRRMO, the Cybere Chapter, etc, beaucoups free media, which will inspireeee spfs across the nation to build PRRMO modulars, join the PRRT&HS, get involved inthe modeling SIG, etc. I just might make South Chalreston into a Freemo module but withe the double tracked mainline oriented so it can be used inn the Lines West Loop. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:28:05 EST Subject: Re: PRRMOdular Content-Length: 827 In a message dated 97-12-18 08:55:03 EST, you write: << I think that code 100 rail is actually very close to the PRR's heavy mainline rail anyway. I forget what pound rail code 100 scales into but I thought it was 150 lb. or so. Rob >> I've read the comment that PRR mainlines was one of the few places that code 100 rail would be prototypical so many times that I'd forgotten about it. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Modeling Super Elevation (fwd) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 17:27:36 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1474 >> Has anyone seen any PRR diagrams on how to handle superelevation and >> ballasting on four-track main lines such as this, that can verify how it was >> done? Could the sharpness of the particular curvature have something to do >> with it? > >I have such stuff at home, salvaged from JACKS tower before it was >torn down. On my list of stuff to scan and Webify. It's those PRR >standards sheets ... actually, the one on superelevation may be in that >book of 57 standard plans published by ?Kalmbach in paperback form. >This book is all PRR stuff and should (IMHO) be in the posession of >every modeler on this list. :-) > >-- >Mark For you lines-westeners out there, the PRRT&HS has a Lines West book of standard plans in the Lewistown Station. It was on one of the book shelves in waiting room. Not quite sure how accessable it is though. I thumbed through it during the trip to the station at the last convention... It's a few hundred pages. Interesting stuff! Now if only we can get the society to reprint it! Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:43:05 -0600 From: ajc5150@net66.com Subject: Re: [HO] X-29 boxcars Content-Length: 1798 kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL wrote: > > Greeting all, > > I've almost completed assembly of the Red Caboose X-29 boxcar and I must > say it is probably the finest plastic piece of rolling stock I have ever > built. The details are incredible (albeit fragile). Have your tweezers > and jeweler's loop handy since there are many microscopic pieces. But I > see a potential problem area. The trucks that are included in the kit > could be troublesome and I wanted to get feedback from anyone else who may > be already operating them on their layout or has knowledge of their > operation. > Those truck sideframes are designed to swivel. Red Caboose also uses this truck design on some of their reefers, and Intermountain uses the design on some of their cars. I like the design and believe the trucks track better than rigid trucks. Remember to add weight to the cars so they track properly. I buy 1/2" nuts in bulk from a hardware store, and I usually use three or four for each car. A kitchen scale comes in handy. Another thing to consider is using metal wheelsets. I have used both Kadee and P2K wheelsets in the Red Caboose trucks. I'm not sure how well the trucks operate with the supplied plastic wheelsets. I have about 18 freight cars in operation with this truck design, and have not noticed any tracking problems. Andy C. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:13:17 EST Subject: Re: 1940's PRR Rolling Stock Resources Content-Length: 2636 Andy and all: Oct 1948 PRR roster numbers by class FLATS F22 119 F23 6 F25 17 F25A 6 F25B 2 F25C 2 F28 2 F29 20 F30 93 F30A 1500 F30C 1 F31A 20 F32 1 F33 16 F34 3 F35 10 F36 30 F37 20 FGR 545 FGRA 508 FM 1951 FN 10 FNA 27 GONS G21 1 G22 5527 G22A 290 G22B 292 G23 1 G24 747 G25 2474 G25A 7 G26 1649 G26A 699 G27 4497 G28 1897 G28A 1 G29 1998 G29A 500 G29B 500 G30 1000 GR 5458 GRA 13248 GS 16637 GSX 85 GSD 28 GSG 1 GSH 893 HOPPERS GLA 22505 GLCA 8244 GLCB 1 GLD 296 GLE 249 GLF 1 GLG 250 H21A, H21B, H21E 39553 H21D 1 H22 1 H22A 245 H25 5253 H27 1 H30 1325 H31 710 H31A 1 H31B 500 H32 37 STOCK CARS K7 25 K7A 1417 K8 989 EXPRESS REEFERS (PASSENGER SERVICE) R50A 1 R50B 546 R60 26 BOX CARS ARA 1 X23 1828 X23A 37 X23B 257 X24 119 X25 7749 X25A 1528 X25B 4 X25C 1 X25D 6 X26 6714 X26A 1 X26C 2995 X28A 4777 X29 27468 X29A 1 X29B 381 X30 1 X31 449 X31A SGL DOOR 6644 X31A DBL DOOR 607 X31B 1184 X31C 806 X31F 690 X32 16 X32A 700 X32B 884 X32C 114 X33 48 X33A 298 X35 1 X36 1 X37 994 X37A 499 X37B 1495 X38 2290 X38A 597 X38B 1 X40 6 X40A 4 X40B 100 X41 289 X41A 200 X41B 1500 X41C 500 Hope this helps. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 18:39:52 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: Modeling Super Elevation (fwd) Content-Length: 2384 Mark D Bej wrote: > > > I've gotten my bench work done, and am about to start setting my roadbed > > and track. I've decided to go with the pre-formed homosote roadbed. My > > question to the group is: What suggestions/proven methods can be offered > > for creating super elevation of the trackwork around curves. > > All help is much appreciated! > > > > Bob Zeolla > > Bob, > all the modelling literature I've seen states that model dynamics are such > that superelevation is not necessary, and that it is strictly an appearance > issue. It _may_ be a maintenance headache, too. > > I've found that the thickness of a tie on the ouside of the curve is > seems about right. I can't quote numbers for you, and surely the prototype > used increasing superelevation for increasing curvature. I'd love to see > a table somewhere. I _can_ tell you that those Silverliners sure used to > tilt a lot at the Middletown, Pa. station (on a curve), surely more than > 10 degrees. > > At any rate, the simple solution is to place crossties in a line along > the outside of the curve, under and perpendicular to the outer edge of > crossties of that track. Make sure you do each track separately, and > that the ballast follows the track profile. I.e., on curves, the > ballast should have a sawtooth cross-sectional profile. > > -- > Mark > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Mark, There's a good article on superelevation for HO scale in the January 1998 issue of RAILMODEL JOURNAL--it just hit my doorstep today. Charlie Fox ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 22:11:54 EST Subject: Re: 1940's PRR Rolling Stock Resources Content-Length: 1663 The PRR published a booklet, "Modern Locomotives and Cars 1939." It has pictures of the following equipment: Steam: E6s, G5s, K4s, K4s Streamlined (#3768), M1a, I1s, S1, H10s, L1s, B6sb, C1 Electric: B1, P5a (modified), GG1 Diesel: AA5 (SW1) Gas-electric: GEG-415 MU: MP-54E3, LIRR MP-70 Passenger cars: P-82R (fom), PB-70DR, D-82R(fom), M-70B, BM-70K, B-60B, B-74B, R-50B [fom=Fleet of Modernization paint] Freight Cars: X31a, X32a, K7a, F31, G22b, F29, F30a, F33, F34, G26, G27, H25, H30, N5a Also shown are pictures of X32 and GG1 being built and some pictures of circa 1860 cars and locomotives. Hope this helps, at least with what was considered "modern" at the beginning of the decade. << >At 12:47 PM 12/15/97 EST, Norton WRC wrote: >I am modelling the PRR during the 1940's, specifically the electrified lines. >Has someone published a book that has information/pictures of the various >passenger and freight rolling stock used during that time period? Since I >wasn't around in the '40's, I need a guide as to what rolling stock and paint >schemes were used so I can figure out what models should appear on my >railroad. >Are there such resources and which is the best? >> ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Joe Gotaskie" Subject: Re: X-29 boxcars Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:25:52 -0500 Content-Length: 2671 I have built 2 of the X-29 boxcars and used Kadee's PRR trucks instead of the ones provided. I had some problems with the first kit's corner roof grabs breaking. They were replaced with Details Associates wire parts. I use Accu Flex (forget exactly what they call the color) as it comes. Joe ---------- > From: kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: X-29 boxcars > Date: Wednesday, December 17, 1997 11:41 AM > > Greeting all, > > I've almost completed assembly of the Red Caboose X-29 boxcar and I must > say it is probably the finest plastic piece of rolling stock I have ever > built. The details are incredible (albeit fragile). Have your tweezers > and jeweler's loop handy since there are many microscopic pieces. But I > see a potential problem area. The trucks that are included in the kit > could be troublesome and I wanted to get feedback from anyone else who may > be already operating them on their layout or has knowledge of their > operation. > > The trucks are assembled from three separate pieces. The bolster and > left/right side frames. The side frames snap in place on the bolster but > they rotate slightly, maybe a 1/16" of travel (per side frame). Does > anyone know if this is supposed to be this way? Should they be glued in > place? And since they are made from slippery engineering plastic can > anyone suggest a glue that would work, superglue does not. If left as is I > suspect they would cause repeated derailings. (Can't test my theory since > I don't have a layout yet) I'd prefer not to replace them since they have > PRR in raised letters on the sideframe. > > Also what is the official PRR freight car color and who makes the closest > match? > > Regards, > > Kris Kollar > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:37:56 -0500 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Branchline FOM Content-Length: 785 I was looking at the future products section of Branchline Trains' web site (http://www.branchline-trains.com/) and saw that they will be releasing a 5-car PRR Fleet of Modernism set (3 coaches, diner, observation), and a separate additional coach. Good news for all you FOaMers sweating about the paint job. -- Jerry Shickler e-mail: geshick@velocity.net ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Joe Gotaskie" Subject: Re: PRRMOdular Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:46:32 -0500 Content-Length: 1409 Well I have to admit I'm not really familiar with modules although I do know some people who are involved, It'll be a week or two before I have an oppurtunity to pick their brains. I do like the idea of centering the tracks in the module (4 of them of course) and would have to vote for code 100 rail on the mainlines. I think branchlines and sidings could be code 83, or how about sidings being code 70? Since this thread started, I've toyed with the idea of module featuring South Fork with it's wye leading to the coal fields. If the era is left up for grabs, scratchbuilding the old freight station looks like a fun and easy project. Control for the home layout I'm currently building is a Wangrow System One so I'm all in favor of DCC control. But that brings up the subject of which DCC system do we use, how is it to be procured, who will see that it gets to the shows etc, etc. We might not want to throw out the conventional control idea just yet. Joe ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Dark Green Locomotive Enamel Date: Fri, 19 Dec 97 08:08:22 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1088 Slap me, for I have forgotten! Who, if anyone, makes a spray that approximates Dark Green Locomotive Enamel, and how close is it? Floquil seems to be the favorite for most colors, but they don't make a spray version of their "Brunswick Green". I cannot afford an airbrush at this time, and must resort to spray. I just did two passenger car sides in Floquil "Tuscan" and they came out great! (I feel they key is multiple very light passes...no runs or pools.) --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: PRR Items on eBay Date: Fri, 19 Dec 97 08:40:41 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 2433 A few unique PRR items from eBay that I am not bidding on: Pennsylvania Railroad, rare linen map Item #3225706 Minimum Bid $25 This rare linen map of all rail lines owned and operated by the PRR was copyrighted in 1903 and 1910 by the Rand McNally Co. and is in excellent condition for it's age. Excellent for framing. Dimensions; 39"W X 26"H. Index printed in red. Also includes electric lines. Seller pays shipping within U.S.A. 2 PIECES OF P.R.R. HISTORY-1927&1931 Item #3215931 Minimum Bid $8 These are 2 pieces of 20's and 30's literature from the P.R.R. lines. The 1927 piece is a small brochure which is 8 pages in length. On the cover it shows the P.R.R. LOGO on either side of the paper. In between these it says, PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD INFORMATION. The main topic of this brochure is, DINING CAR WORKERS OF THIS RAILROAD GO TO SCHOOL. Yes it's a chef's book showing with pictures how the workers are taught to cook, prepare and serve the food on the trains. Very neat pictures and interesting reading. The next piece is from 1931 and it has the bright red P.R.R. LOGO on it. It's theme is, PENNSYLVANIA PRODUCE TERMINAL, BALTIMORE, MD.. This 4 page brochure shows the location via map of the whereabouts of this produce market in the city of Baltimore. Also there is a sketch of what the terminal would look like in relationship to the railway yards and the convenience of delivery and being able to load right onto trucks for fresh delivery. A very good idea by the way. These 2 pieces of P.R.R. memmorabilia are both in excellent condition. Nice pieces. Winning bidder pays for shipping and handling and payment is to be by check or money order. GOOD LUCK Winning bidder pays for shipping and handling and payment is to be by check or money order. GOOD LUCK --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Branchline FOM Date: Fri, 19 Dec 97 09:30:22 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1480 On 12/19/97 12:37 AM, Jerry Shickler (geshick@velocity.net) wrote: >I was looking at the future products section of Branchline Trains' web >site (http://www.branchline-trains.com/) and saw that they will be >releasing a 5-car PRR Fleet of Modernism set (3 coaches, diner, >observation), and a separate additional coach. Good news for all you >FOaMers sweating about the paint job. Now I'm pissed! I worked with them about doing a set and they said they couldn't and wouldn't do it. Guess it's good news that they are, just wish I hadn't invested so much time trying to find alternate ways. Now if they just use the right cars...or will we get a vista dome? If I was a betting man, and I am, I'd bet they aren't digging into the nitty gritty to produce an "exact" prototype. Wouldn't surprise me if they just use Athearn cars (which are wrong). --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: X-29 boxcars From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 97 09:02:26 -0500 Content-Length: 3086 >>Greeting all, >> >>I've almost completed assembly of the Red Caboose X-29 boxcar and I must >>say it is probably the finest plastic piece of rolling stock I have ever >>built. The details are incredible (albeit fragile). Have your tweezers >>and jeweler's loop handy since there are many microscopic pieces. But I >>see a potential problem area. The trucks that are included in the kit >>could be troublesome and I wanted to get feedback from anyone else who may >>be already operating them on their layout or has knowledge of their >>operation. >> >>The trucks are assembled from three separate pieces. The bolster and >>left/right side frames. The side frames snap in place on the bolster but >>they rotate slightly, maybe a 1/16" of travel (per side frame). Does >>anyone know if this is supposed to be this way? Should they be glued in >>place? And since they are made from slippery engineering plastic can >>anyone suggest a glue that would work, superglue does not. If left as is I >>suspect they would cause repeated derailings. (Can't test my theory since >>I don't have a layout yet) I'd prefer not to replace them since they have >>PRR in raised letters on the sideframe. >> >>Also what is the official PRR freight car color and who makes the closest >>match? >>Regards, >> >>Kris Kollar > >I agree that these trucks can be troublesome. I built up a dozen or so cars >with these truck so far. Most of them seem to work w/o problems but at least >one self destructs going over switches etc... One alternative is to replace them >with the Kadee version of the same trucks. I toyed with this but came up with >a fix to make the Red Caboose trucks work well... What I did was to assemble the >trucks and then drill a small (.020") hole through both the bolster and pin on >the sideframe. I then put a piece of .019" wire through the hole. This holds >the sideframe tightly into the bolster and keeps the wheelsets from falling out! >I made the holes through the bolster slightly eliptical so that the sideframes >can pivot slightly also. > >So far I've done this to 6-8 cars and now they run just as well as one-piece trucks! > >Rob > >------- I believe the rotation is supposed to provide equalization. It appears to work and I have had no problem with mine. I have several. However anther truck to consider is the PRR 2D-F12 (I think thats the number) Its the truck with one coil spring and one leaf spring. Thousands of these were put on X-29s and they are available from Bowser who made them for their X31s. regards Andy M iller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:37:25 -0500 (EST) From: Roger Kirkpatrick Subject: Lima Farewell! Content-Length: 1137 And the Lima Locomotive Works, Lima, Ohio, is not so slowly becoming "history". Several buildings have already fallen since demolition started 2 months or so ago. Currently the Erection Building is being unerected! RIP! Roger _______ S. Roger Kirkpatrick ______|_____| [ ] |___________ 927 Colegate Drive | | | | Marietta, OH 45750 | | [ ] [ ] | | | | | | Fax - 614-376-4777 |__|______________________|__| Home - 614-374-6732 O<=>O O<=>O ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: Branchline FOM From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 97 09:38:45 -0500 Content-Length: 1246 >I was looking at the future products section of Branchline Trains' web >site (http://www.branchline-trains.com/) and saw that they will be >releasing a 5-car PRR Fleet of Modernism set (3 coaches, diner, >observation), and a separate additional coach. Good news for all you >FOaMers sweating about the paint job. >-- >Jerry Shickler >e-mail: geshick@velocity.net > >----------------------- Beware! Branchline Trains has never shown a foto of their products. All of their ads show fotos of the prototype! They primarily repaint existing cars. Since I know of no existing HO cars for the FOM coaches (P70Ks), diners (D70s) or obs, I suspect you wil just have repainted Atheran cars or some such. I don't thing that the right paint on the wrong car is an improvement. regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRRMOdular Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:39:01 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 2112 On 18 Dec, "Joe Gotaskie" wrote: > Since this thread started, I've toyed with the idea of module featuring > South Fork with it's wye leading to the coal fields. If the era is left up > for grabs, scratchbuilding the old freight station looks like a fun and > easy project. Good idea! Junctions are always points of interest. > Control for the home layout I'm currently building is a Wangrow System One > so I'm all in favor of DCC control. But that brings up the subject of which > DCC system do we use, how is it to be procured, who will see that it gets > to the shows etc, etc. We might not want to throw out the conventional > control idea just yet. Don't worry too much about it. I'm an NTrakker, and substituting power between Dynatrol, DCC, and DC is a matter of about a minute. Rather than expect the club to shell out hundreds or dollars to buy a DCC system, let's assume that either one of the members will bring a setup, or not. It's also the case that adding a decoder to most locomotives generally doubles the cost, so it's unreasonable to expect all members to add decoders to their fleet before showing off their handiwork. I have to admit that I don't be participating in this modular effort, since I model strictly in N scale. I also acknowledge that N Scale isn't a very good scale to model PRR in, since the Pennsy's unique prototypes are so seldom produced in N Scale. Dennis Rockwell dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:48:06 -0500 From: Mark Murphy Subject: Pennsy Journal VIII #2 Content-Length: 773 Hi, Does anyone know where I could obtain a reprint of the Pennsy Journal VIII #2 issue (more specificly an artical in the issue titled 'Pitcairn Yard, Part II' by Bob Reid). Any leads or help would be appreciated. Mark ------------------------------ Mark D. Murphy IC Design Center Mgr. Cadence Design Systems, Inc. murphy@cadence.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Branchline Trains FoM Set Date: Fri, 19 Dec 97 13:29:20 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 2332 I checked out Branchline Trains' web site, looking for that "Fleet of Modernism" set previously reported. The site reveals that a five car set is planned, for $99.98...with additional coaches available for $19.98. But hold on here...the set includes a diner, and observation, and three coaches. That's about as useful as the Con Cor N scale set that included a vista dome! As is, this is a false alarm. No matter how sharply BT produces the paint job, it ain't gonna satisfy us prototypical modelers. Remember, the only PRR trains that got the "FoM" treatment were the Blue Ribbon trains ("Broadway Limited", "Liberty Limited", "The General", and "The Spirit of St. Louis"; and later to include the "Golden Triangle" and the "Pittsburgher"). Though these trains had some coaches, by far their consist was mostly sleepers. And BT isn't including any sleepers in their set!!! Don't fret. I have sent an e-mail to BT. (Although they have been very short with me in the past, so I won't hold my breath.) Since they obviously will have the paint "template" setup for their car sets, I am asking if they can paint car sides on a contract basis. We could supply true-to-prototype sides (Union Station Products, Brass Car Sides, etc.) and have them painted using their templates. It wouldn't be cost effective for them to change cars to meet our preference, as their intended selling price is only $99. When you take car sides, a core kit, trucks, couplers, decals, details, etc., a built-up car can quickly cost $50. That would place their set at $250, which would narrow its marketability dramatically. Nonetheless, we (SPF's) want it right, or not on our layout at all! 8-) --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 19 Dec 97 15:44:20 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: Saved locos Content-Length: 6396 --====54565756575651514854===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Is the I1sa now in New York the engine that was formerly on display in the Pittsburgh area, I believe outside the Westinghouse plant? There was also a PRR switcher somewhere in the Pittsburgh area as well, stripped of everything that could be carried away and rusting away in the underbrush. Anyone know what happened to it? Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. wrote: >>Please excuse my ignorance on the PRR steam loco topic as I am a cabin >>chaser. The following have some sort of link to the PRR: >> >> B6sa #60, private, stored in Hockessin, DE; >> >> I1sa #4483, WNYRHS, Hamburg, NY; > >The I1sa (The ONLY one) has been stored for a number of years. Several >groups have tried to get it moved. In the latest Keystone, the board of >the Strasbourg museum indicated that obtaining this locomotive for the >collection was a priority for 1998. In addition, restoration to operation >was mentioned! > >Happy Rails >Bruce > > >Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. >Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and >Director, Nucleic Acid Services >Scott-Ritchey Research Center >334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ >***************************************************************** >*************** >"The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four Americans is >suffering from some form of mental illness. Think of your three best >friends. If they are okay, then it's you." >- Rita Mae Brown > > _ _ > / \ / \ > ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ > |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====54565756575651514854===1 From: "W. Jim Hudson" Subject: Re: Saved locos Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 22:03:11 -0000 Content-Length: 1561 This brings to mind a question which I'm not sure anyone is really qualified to answer. Of the surviving PRR steam locos (other than 1361) which one is closest to being made operable. I know 1223(D16sb) and the 70002 Atlantic were in steam within the past decade or so but had to be retired due to firebox problems. I guess my question is which engine would be EASIEST to restore to operating condition. With the disappearing host railroads, is it feasible to expect any developments? Any opinions? Restoration to operation of an I1sa? Can you imagine a "hippo" pulling a string of varnish? :) -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, December 18, 1997 10:43 PM Subject: Re: Saved locos >The I1sa (The ONLY one) has been stored for a number of years. Several >groups have tried to get it moved. In the latest Keystone, the board of >the Strasbourg museum indicated that obtaining this locomotive for the >collection was a priority for 1998. In addition, restoration to operation >was mentioned! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 19 Dec 97 17:42:14 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: Lima Farewell! Content-Length: 4263 --====54515654535651555054===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Wasn't the last use of this complex to build the M-1 tank? General Dynamics, and then bought by Chrysler and renamed Chrysler Defense? Did Lima build J-1's, or did they just supply patterns and such to Juniata? Roger Kirkpatrick wrote: >And the Lima Locomotive Works, Lima, Ohio, is not so slowly becoming >"history". Several buildings have already fallen since demolition started >2 months or so ago. Currently the Erection Building is being unerected! > >RIP! > >Roger > > _______ > S. Roger Kirkpatrick ______|_____| [ ] |___________ > 927 Colegate Drive | | | | > Marietta, OH 45750 | | [ ] [ ] | | > | | | | > Fax - 614-376-4777 |__|______________________|__| > Home - 614-374-6732 O<=>O O<=>O > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====54515654535651555054===1 Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 21:10:22 -0500 From: "Vagel C. Keller" Subject: Re: X-29 boxcars (Red Caboose) Content-Length: 1463 At 11:25 PM 12/18/97 -0500, Joe Gotaskie wrote: >I had some problems with the first kit's corner roof grabs breaking. They >were replaced with Details Associates wire parts. > It's _ALWAYS_ a good idea to replace grabs and stirrup steps with metal detail parts. I'd recommend ALine Part No. 29002, Stirrup Steps Style C, for the X29. Regards, Vagel Vagel Keller Pittsburgh, PA vagelk@usaor.net THE INDUSTRIAL HERITAGE HOMEPAGE http://www.usaor.net/users/vagelk _||_||_ || || || || || ||\ || || || || ||_||\\ /\_||__||__||__||_/\ \\ // \\ o x o x o x o . . . \/ \ \\ o _____ | | / \ >][_n_n_|HH] /====___ ________ ________ (_______|__]_[_______]_|\____/| |\____/| _/o OOOO o` oo oo 'oo oo' 'oo oo' ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 21:16:34 -0500 From: "Vagel C. Keller" Subject: Christmas Greetings Content-Length: 1309 Here's wishing you all Belpaire wishes and Broadway dreams for the holiday season. I can't begin to thank all on this list for keeping alive the memory of a great railroad. All the best, Vagel and Debbie Vagel Keller Pittsburgh, PA vagelk@usaor.net THE INDUSTRIAL HERITAGE HOMEPAGE http://www.usaor.net/users/vagelk _||_||_ || || || || || ||\ || || || || ||_||\\ /\_||__||__||__||_/\ \\ // \\ o x o x o x o . . . \/ \ \\ o _____ | | / \ >][_n_n_|HH] /====___ ________ ________ (_______|__]_[_______]_|\____/| |\____/| _/o OOOO o` oo oo 'oo oo' 'oo oo' ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 21:32:10 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Modeling Super Elevation (fwd) Content-Length: 2728 Doug Drew wrote: > > > In scrutinizing ground-level shots of Horse Shoe Curve in the 60's, it > > seems the profile on The Broad Way in this region was done differently than > > Mark states above. While all tracks are superelevated on the curve, the > > two inside tracks seem to be on the same horizontal plane, and so are the > > two outside tracks, making two 'teeth' of the saw, rather than four as one > > might expect. > > > > Has anyone seen any PRR diagrams on how to handle superelevation and > > ballasting on four-track main lines such as this, that can verify how it was > > done? Could the sharpness of the particular curvature have something to do > > with it? Mark D Bej wrote: > > It's those PRR > standards sheets ... actually, the one on superelevation may be in that > book of 57 standard plans published by ?Kalmbach in paperback form. > This book is all PRR stuff and should (IMHO) be in the posession of > every modeler on this list. :-) > I happen to have a copy of the PRR _57 Plans.. [for] Maintenance of Way_ handy and looked up the multi track drawing (page 1). There is no drawing showing superelevated tracks, but it states that: 1) The outer two of four tracks (straight track) are to be set three inches lower than the inner two tracks. 2) "On curves the low rail of all tracks to be maintained at the same relative elevation." On double track both tracks are at the same elevation; the low rail rule (2) above) also applies. The plan in the book has a revision date of 1917. Things can change over the years, with the fortunes of business, and the setting of the outer tracks lower than the inner two tracks may also contribute to difficulty in ascertaining the exact elevations of curved tracks in a photograph. Any diagram I have seen keeps the low rails at the same elevations, creating the saw-tooth appearance. Keeping the surfaces of two or more tracks in the same plane would result in increased grade on the outer track approaches, an undesirable condition. BTW, the book was compiled by Harold T. Smith, and published by Boynton and Associates, Clifton, Va., in 1967. You're right, Mark, it is a great reference. I just happened to bump into a copy somewhere a very few years ago. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 22:24:12 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Position signals Content-Length: 3100 Zeolla wrote: > > Tonight, while driving home on the NJ Turnpike, I noticed a set of > position signals on the NEC mainline that parallels the turnpike just > outside of the tunnels under the Hudson. > > I'm not an expert on these lights, but I think that vertical means > "clear", horizontal means "stop", and diagonal means "caution"(?). > > What I found unusual was that one of the signals was diagonal and > flashing. Is this normal? What does it signify? Is it an Amtrak thing > or did the PRR do the same? Bob, I am sure I just received this posting today (Friday night), but I see you posted it on Wednesday. I haven't seen any responses so I will try to answer. Although the signal rules change occasionally as situations change, the following are relatively recent interpretations of NORAC Rules, which include AMTRAK, Conrail, and others in the Northeast. A single flashing yellow, top head flashing yellow, or flashing right diagonal / is rule 282A Advance Approach, "Proceed prepared to stop at second signal. Trains exceeding Limited Speed..." (45mph) "...must begin reduction to Limited Speed as soon as train passes the Advance Approach signal." A flashing yellow on the second or middle head, or the equivalent horizontal over flashing right diagonal denotes Rule 286, Medium Approach. "Proceed prepared to stop at the next signal. Trains exceeding medium speed must begin reduction to Medium Speed as soon as the Medium Approach signal is clearly visible." Red over Yellow over Red is also Medium Approach. Flashing signals have been used for years to denote Limited Speed, and generally came into being with the advent of turnouts which could be run on the diverting route at speeds higher thn Medium Speed (generally "Not to exceed 30 mph.") The Penn Central's early use of Limited Speed was indicated by a yellow triangle sign attached adjacent to and left of the second position light signal head rather than a flashing signal. PRR already used the flashing diagonal on the second head for Medium-approach. The definition of Limited Speed varies, and is generally, today, "Not to exceed 45 mph." On the New York Central it was ".. 50 mph." Penn Central dropped it to 45. BTW, a single right diagonal or yellow is Rule 285, Approach, "Proceed prepared to stop at the next signal. Trains exceeding Medium Speed must begin reduction to Medium Speed as soon as the engine passes the Approach Signal." "Caution" is yet another signal. I don't have access to the latest rules, so I may be a litle out of date on this, but I think I am in the ballpark with it. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Position signals Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 01:00:43 -0500 (EST) From: "Ken Reinert" Content-Length: 2167 Zeolla wrote: > What I found unusual was that one of the signals was diagonal and > flashing. Is this normal? What does it signify? Is it an Amtrak thing > or did the PRR do the same? Depends on whether it was the top or bottom head (from your description, it sounds like a single flashing head). If it was the top (single) head, it's an Advance Approach (proceed prepared to stop at second signal, reduce to limited speed); steady horizontal over flashing 45 degree is a Medium Approach (proceed prepared to stop at next signal, reduce to medium speed). The Advance Approach first was used on the NEC (ex-PRR) on the 694 block signal at Croydon and at Croy Interlocking when Croy was put in service, as the conversion of the switch on No. 1 track shortened the block lengths. The Medium Approach has been around since PRR days; at least one of the interlocking signals at Brill (No. 1 track northward?) displayed it, as do some of the signals going into the upper level of 30th Street Station from the north (west) end. Lessee... ----- ----- / \ / o\ | o o o | < steady | o | < flashing \ / \o / ----- ----- | | ----- | / o\ | | o | < flashing | \o / | ----- | | | Medium Approach Advance Approach Whew... :-) Ken ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963 Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 05:25:17 EST Subject: Re: Branchline FOM Content-Length: 616 According to Bob Benson at Branchline Trains they are ConCor cars decorated by Branchline. They have trucks with metal wheels and NMRA couplers. Harold Lines South, The Florida Trains ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249 Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 09:03:44 EST Subject: Re: Saved locos Content-Length: 924 The I-1 - currently in Buffalo "Western New York Railway Historical Society" is the "Westinghouse" engine - forget how they happened to get it Last time I saw it Boiler Jacketing and Asbestos had been removed - they were making plans to run it - but had no chance in the Buffalo area. The locomotive - last I heard had been painted, but was sitting outside - sans insulation and jacketing and was providing a prototype for the Penn Line - Bowser I-1 (undersized boiler) Dick Ross ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 09:47:40 -0500 From: bobsin@nac.net Subject: Re: Catenary Content-Length: 644 Can someone provide a specific reference as to where the catenary construction article was? Thanks -- this is a long time back-burner interest, but one of these days I would like to get started on it. John Bobsin ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 10:17:58 -0500 From: bobsin@nac.net Subject: Re: Modeling Super Elevation Content-Length: 2512 I agree that there is no operational reason to superelevate model track (trains are not going to flip over to the outside of the curve at high speed, or any way the superelevation is unlikely to help), in fact it's a contributor to long, heavy trains derailing by leaning over to the INSIDE. That said . . . IT SURE LOOKS GOOD! I agree the "right" amount is about one tie's thickness at the outside of the ties. I handlay track on wooden ties, and when I have superelevated I keep the Homasote level (I build it over spline subroadbed), but place narrow strips of cardboard under the outer edge of ties. In normal, flat track I glue down the ties with white glue thinned and with a wetting agent (detergent for gluing ties; but when added ballast later use matte medium for the glue and maybe Kodak Photo-Flo I think it is as the wetting agent). But white glue is VERY HARD, and this only works for spiking because the layer of glue under flat ties is very thin. When superelevating, the ties are no longer flat on the Homasote and the glue runs under the ties, resulting in a hard layer that spikes won't penetrate; so I have glued the ties down on superelevated track, and the cardboard strip too, with contact cement instead. When you have got the ties in place you have to sand the whole thing flat (flat but superelevated, that is) and restain the tie tops. I think anybody who says you don't have to sand handlaid ties after setting them in place is not going to achieve very good track in the end. On entering curves, the transition to superelevation has to be gradual, and in the prototype is designed along with the spiral transition into the curve from the tangent track. (Design of transitions is a whole 'nother thing. You can spend a lot of time on theory, which may or may not be appropriate to good-looking track; I have a belief that the curves that MR published way back in 1965, while very nice, were ALL WRONG. I have a 30-year project to write a letter to the editor . . .) Hope this helps someone John Bobsin ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 11:22:47 -0500 From: "Drew R. McGhee" Subject: Re: Position signals Content-Length: 2747 Greetings to the group, The flashing aspect was part of the PRR's signaling practices that has survived. According the NORAC Signal Aspects, dated April 1, 1993, Rules 281b, 281c, 282a and 286 have flashing aspects. ___________________ Rule 281b Approach Limited: Proceed approaching the next signal at Limited Speed. / | (Flashing) __________________ Rule 281c Limited Clear: Proceed at Limited Speed until entire train clears interlocking limits or turnouts, then proceed at Normal Speed. In CSS territory with fixed automatic block signals, trains not equiped with operative cab signals must approach the next signal at Limited Speed. _ | (Flashing) ___________________ Rule 282a Advance Approach: Proceed prepared to stop at the second signal. Trains exceeding Limited Speed must begin reduction to Limited Speed as soon as engine pases the Advance Approach signal. / (Flashing) No lights lit in lower head if any. ____________________ Rule 286 Medium Approach: Proceed prepared to stop at next signal. Trains exceeding Medium Speed must begin reduction to Medium Speed as soon as the Medium Approach signal is clearly visible. _ / (Flashing) _______________________ Norac defines the speeds as follows: Normal Speed: The maximum authorized speed. Limited Speed: For passenger trains, not exceeding 45 MPH. For freight trains, not exceeding 40 MPH. Medium Speed: Not exceeding 30 MPH. According to PRR's 1956 Book of Rules, they only had one flashing aspect signal. It was Medium Approach, PRR's rule 283A. It's indication was to Proceed at Medium speed prepared to stop at next signal. trains exceeding Medium Speed must at once reduce to that speed. The PRR defined Medium Speed as, "Not exceeding one half the speed authorized for passenger trains but not exceeding 30 miles per hour."It had the same aspect as NORAC's Rule 286 above. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 10:54 PM 12/17/97 -0500, Zeolla wrote: >I'm not an expert on these lights, but I think that vertical means >"clear", horizontal means "stop", and diagonal means "caution"(?). >What I found unusual was that one of the signals was diagonal and >flashing. Is this normal? What does it signify? Is it an Amtrak thing >or did the PRR do the same? ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 13:02:22 EST Subject: 57 standard plans of the PRR (was: Re: Modeling Super Elevation Content-Length: 1611 In a message dated 97-12-20 12:32:29 EST, you write: << BTW, the book was compiled by Harold T. Smith, and published by Boynton and Associates, Clifton, Va., in 1967. You're right, Mark, it is a great reference. I just happened to bump into a copy somewhere a very few years ago. >> My first scratchbuilt structure was a representation of the 500"+ long curved coal dock between Xenia's main PRR passenger station (yes there were two--one on the mainline and on for the Springfield branch) and the roundhouse and shops for the Greene County Historical Society's Operarting Diorama.of Xenia's Railroads. Since I did not have the benefit of this book, I made some obivous errors (It's not tall enough) I, too, was able to secure a copy (at a quite reasonable price, to boot). My copy is a thrid edition dated 1971. I think there's a lot pent up demand for such a book during the past 26 or 27 years. I've toyed with tracking down Mr. Smith to inquire about the rights. It could be a great fundraiser for either PRRMO or the Cyberchapter. It's definitely the type of document needed by modelers that's been in extremely short supply for SPF modelers. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 10:41:00 -0800 (PST) From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: PRRMOdular Content-Length: 3847 Hi Dennis and All, On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, Dennis Rockwell wrote: > I have to admit that I don't be participating in this > modular effort, since I model strictly in N scale. I also > acknowledge that N Scale isn't a very good scale to model > PRR in, since the Pennsy's unique prototypes are so seldom > produced in N Scale. For those of us who model the PRR in N-Scale I'd like to announce that I and a couple of friends have been working on adapting N-Trak standards to fit the PRR system. Relatively simple, actually. Main change, of course, is the addition of a 4th track. I have designed a set of modules that represent Altoona to Johnstown with the Horseshoe Curve modeled to scale. We have kept the N-Trak module interfaces so as to be able to link up with standard N-Trak modules. We have chosen the obvious name of "Penn-Trak" for our efforts and I would like, at this time, to invite any interested N-Scale Keystoner's to join with us in developing this system. Dennis is correct in his statement that there is not enough N-Scale PRR prototype equipment however there has been some variety produced. My roster currently includes the following: Diesel-- Alco- RS1-s (AS10) Atlas/Kato RS3's (AS16) Atlas/Kato RSD4's (AS16a) Atlas/Kato RS11's (AS18m) Atlas/Kato RSD12's (AS18am) Atlas/Kato RSD15's (AS24m) AHM FA1's (AF15) Atlas/Roco FA2's (AF16) LifeLike PA1's (AP20) ConCor Baldwin- RF16's (BF16) Various Resin shells on Atlas RS3 mechanisms DR6-4-20 (BP20) Resin Shells on old ConCor PA mechanisms EMD- SW9's (ES12) LifeLike SW1200's (ES12) ConCor (modified w/ NscaleNevada kit) SD7's (ES15a) LifeLike GP9's (EFS17m) Atlas E7's (EP20) ConCor E8's (EP22) ConCor F3's (EF15) Kato F7's (EF15a) Kato FM- H10-44 (FS10) Minitrix CF16-4 (FF16) (Old Atlas shells on new mechanisms) GE- U30C's (GF30a) Kato Steam-- B6sb (0-6-0) Minitrix K4 (4-6-2) Minitrix L1 (2-8-2) Kato w/Minitrix shells I1 (2-10-0) Minitrix T1 (4-4-4-4) Brass S1 (6-4-4-6) Brass HH1 (2-8-8-2) Rowa, RivaRossi, Etc... D6 (4-4-0) Bachmann With the exception of the U-Boats and the D6 all of the above fit into my loose 1939-1959 era. I realize there are some serious gaps, especially in steam, but there is enough coverage to satisfy me for the time being. N-Scale Erie-builts exist and I will add them as possible. I have plans to convert some Minitrix H10-44's into an ersatz Pennsy RT624 or T2500. An SW1 would be very cool if anyone ever produces one in N. I don't view the PRRMO idea as an either HO or N conflict as most of us N-scaler's aren't likely to switch to HO. The cost of assembling a PRR fleet is enough to not want to do it in two scales. Rather I fully support the efforts of the HO scalers while continuing development of the Penn-Trak N-Scale concept. I do model in other scales; HO, G, 1.5" live steam, but prefer to do different, smaller in scope, things in those scales. Representing Transition Era density, variety and experimentation is my goal in my N-Scale PRR modeling. For proto accuracy I agree that the HO'ers have the advantage but a 120 hopper coal drag with an N5c cabin and a pair of I1's on each end is an awesome sight indeed! Then there's the S1 with 21 FOM cars trailing behind. Or maybe an ABA set of BP20's on the point? Well N-Scaler's, and anyone else, what do you think? Keep on 4-Trackin' Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Leary" Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 19:22:59 +0000 Subject: Re: 1940's PRR Rolling Stock Resources Content-Length: 1632 > From: Da72jmk > Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 22:11:54 EST > To: NortonWRC@aol.com, prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: 1940's PRR Rolling Stock Resources > Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Da72jmk recently wrote: > The PRR published a booklet, "Modern Locomotives and Cars 1939." It has > pictures of the following equipment: > > Steam: E6s, G5s, K4s, K4s Streamlined (#3768), M1a, I1s, S1, H10s, L1s, B6sb, > C1 > > Electric: B1, P5a (modified), GG1 > > Diesel: AA5 (SW1) > > Gas-electric: GEG-415 > > MU: MP-54E3, LIRR MP-70 > > Passenger cars: P-82R (fom), PB-70DR, D-82R(fom), M-70B, BM-70K, B-60B, B-74B, > R-50B [fom=Fleet of Modernization paint] > > Freight Cars: X31a, X32a, K7a, F31, G22b, F29, F30a, F33, F34, G26, G27, H25, > H30, N5a > > Also shown are pictures of X32 and GG1 being built and some pictures of circa > 1860 cars and locomotives. > > Hope this helps, at least with what was considered "modern" at the beginning > of the decade. > Nicely written email that helps one to develop a time line perspective of Pennsy's equipment. Sincerely, Greg Leary (electronically signed) ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 13:40:36 -0800 (PST) From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: Modeling Super Elevation Content-Length: 3319 Hi All, For those interested I transcribe from "Building and Repairing Railways" a supplement to "The Science of Railways" by Marshall M. Kirkman, published by the World Railway Publishing Co.- 1902- pgs. 601, 602: "Elevation-The elevation (in inches) of outer rail upon curves will be made in accordance with the following table: TABLE OF ELEVATION OF OUTER RAILS ON CURVES. De- |---------------Rate of speed in miles per hour.-----------------| gree 15 20 25 30 35 40 45 50 60 of |-----------------------Superelevation---------------------------| curve ins. ins. ins. ins. ins. ins. ins. ins. in 1 1/8 1/4 7/16 9/16 13/16 17/16 21/16 13/8 19/8 2 5/16 1/2 13/16 19/16 13/8 17/8 43/16 53/16 19/4 3 7/16 13/16 5/4 7/4 39/16 25/8 4" 79/16 7.06 4 9/16 17/16 13/8 19/8 13/4 67/16 85/16 101/8 .... 5 3/4 21/16 33/16 3" 4" 21/4 107/16 .... .... 6 7/8 25/16 39/16 57/16 77/16 51/8 .... .... .... 7 17/16 29/16 23/8 33/8 45/8 .... .... .... .... 8 19/16 17/8 53/16 75/16 13/2 .... .... .... .... 9 21/16 19/8 59/16 85/16 .... .... .... .... .... 10 3/2 21/8 33/8 95/16 .... .... .... .... .... 12 7/4 25/8 79/16 43/8 .... .... .... .... .... 15 35/16 63/16 99/16 .... .... .... .... .... .... 18 21/8 75/16 .... .... .... .... .... .... .... 20 47/16 21/4 .... .... .... .... .... .... .... "The greatest elevation must not exceed six inches unless otherwise directed. "The elevation of outer rail on curves must necessarily be adapted to speed and other local conditions with due regard to safety, comfort and economy of track maintenance, for all classes of trains. "The elevation on mountain grades should not exceed that required for 25 miles per hour. "The elevation of outer rail must not be continued beyond the tangent point, but should decrease uniformly along the easement curve from point of maximum curvature to tangent point. "To ascertain the elevation required at points on easement curves, trackmen are required to use a cord of standard length, the middle ordinate of which will be equal to the proper elevation, as follows: Speed. Length of cord. 20 mph 31.74 ft. 25 mph 39.68 ft. 30 mph 47.61 ft. 35 mph 55.55 ft. 40 mph 63.48 ft. 45 mph 71.42 ft. 60 mph 79.35 ft. "This method is applicable to all curves, and aids in maintaining true alignment, as all ordinates should be equal on full centered portions of curves, and ordinates must decrease uniformly on easement curves from full elevation to zero at tangent point. In using the cord to ascertain elevation, it should be stretched and firmly held at both ends against the inner face of rail on inside of curve. The middle ordinate will then be equal to the required elevation and can be measured by a foot rule, or by attaching a short piece of graduated tape to the cord at it's center." Hope this is useful to some of you. Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Branchline FOM Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 17:23:26 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 887 On 20 Dec, Hal6963 wrote: > According to Bob Benson at Branchline Trains > they are ConCor cars decorated by Branchline. Yup -- just like what Con-Cor did in N scale, painted up a few of their usual non-PRR cars in what was a *very* nice rendition of the FOM paint scheme. That was the best technical job and the most technically difficult paint scheme I've ever seen Con-Cor do. Too bad about all the wrong prototypes. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 21:49:43 EST Subject: Re: Saved locos Content-Length: 927 In a message dated 97-12-19 21:38:52 EST, ddrew@channing-bete.com writes: << Is the I1sa now in New York the engine that was formerly on display in the Pittsburgh area, I believe outside the Westinghouse plant? Yes. There was also a PRR switcher somewhere in the Pittsburgh area as well, stripped of everything that could be carried away and rusting away in the underbrush. Anyone know what happened to it? Went to scrap in Deleware I think. It was beyond saving. Rich Orr >> ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian Brandt" Subject: Re: Saved locos Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 21:51:58 -0500 Content-Length: 723 I think you will find both of these locomotives are near to one of the few shos that could do the job, that is if the museum would allow it. Strasburg RR. They are both right across the street and connected by rail. Brian Brandt ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RTSILLER Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 22:53:30 EST Subject: Re: Saved locos Content-Length: 1693 Following the recent thread of saved locos, I figured now was the time to set up my page on the photos I have of I1 #4483. I only live about 15 minutes from where it is stored, and it's behind a hobby shop (isn't life grand), so I ran over and shot a roll of film in October. Please visit the following page to see the current state of the last remaining I1: http://members.aol.com/rtsiller/PRRinWNY.html This constitutes several firsts for me; my first post to PRR-Talk and my first web page, so please forgive any format errors. I have gained so much useful info from this forum, I figured it was time to try and return the favor. As you can see by the photos, #4483 is a long way from doing anything other than just sit there. According to someone I talked from the Western New York Railway Historical Society at the last train show, they still plan on fixing it up. The problem is, they have so many projects going and #4483 is not on the top of their list. Last I heard, the WNYRHS was pretty firm on keeping control of #4483. I'll try to find more info and keep you updated. Please pass on any info or references you may have on #4483, or any other PRR equipment in Western New York. Happy Holidays, Rick Siller (rtsiller@aol.com) ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 21:07:59 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: Cabin cars Content-Length: 2936 Roger Kirkpatrick wrote: > > Howdy, > > I've been on the list for a few weeks now and found a minimum of interest > in cabin cars. Combine that with the chapter chatter and it is time for > me to go. I'll unsub later today. > > Thanks to those that helped with the cabin car questions. If you want to > keep in touch about cabins, keep my address: . > > Cheers, Roger > > _______ > S. Roger Kirkpatrick ______|_____| [ ] |___________ > 927 Colegate Drive | | | | > Marietta, OH 45750 | | [ ] [ ] | | > | | | | > Fax - 614-376-4777 |__|______________________|__| > Home - 614-374-6732 O<=>O O<=>O > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Roger, I know this reply/question comes five days after your post to the list about not must cabin car talk. It's true, but maybe we can get some going. BTW, I didn't see your unsub, so hope you're still on the list. Cabins or not, there's a lot interesting information here. Anyhow, I'm looking for information of which railroads besides the ones I've listed below, owned or somehow came into the posession of any N5b cabins. Also, what were their road numbers (not the PRR, PC or CR cabins, though), and where might I be able to find (color) photo evidence of what they looked like. Some of the ones below I do have color photos of, but need some of ather road numbers the RR may have had or color photos of the two I marked with an asterisk/star. PRR PC CR AMTK PRSL #237 D&M #207 * B&M #C25, C31 C&I #38, 53 LIRR #1, 2 NYNH&H #C500-C505 * S&A #251 That's eleven different railroads altogether I've found having these cars. Are there any others that anyone knows of? TIA, and happy holidays to all. Chuck Friedlein ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 02:03:48 EST Subject: Cab Numberboards Content-Length: 940 Hi Gang, Does anyone know if any of the "Later Varient" cab unit numberboards are available as an aftermarket product? The ones to which I refer are those that are shaped similar to automobile license plates and appear to be attached by four bolts or some sort of stand-off stanchion device. Also, as a part two.... Were these boards painted the same color as the diesel body color or were they totally black with only the numbering in white? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, George ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 23:31:16 -0800 From: Stan Feldman Subject: RAILPIX-SITE-UPDATE Content-Length: 1515 Hello all stations; I have added the following images to my site; Amtrak E-60 #605 near Shore Tower Phila. Pa. Conrail GP-38 #7742 watching Circus Elephants CP SD-40-2 #5678 @ Phila Pa. CSX GP-40-2 #6465 @ Phila. Pa. Ex-PRR Brill Gas Electric Car #4662-Front view Ex-PRR Brill Gas Electric Car #4662-Side view Ex-PRR Brill Gas Electric Car #4662-Passenger area Reading FP-7 #903 @ Wilmington Del. Wilmington + Western Caboose C-2013 Please visit and enjoy ! Stan -- *********************************************************** STAN'S RAILPIX-- Railroad Photo Gallery ! http://www.trainweb.com/railpix ****************************************************** Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it !! *********************************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 12:43:08 -0500 From: "Tom von Trott" Subject: The I1 Content-Length: 3236 Thanks for the pictures of the I1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I've been looking for pics of the girl for ever!!! I'm just glad to see she really does exist. What is your opinion on the people who want to move the 4483 down the the museum in Strasburg? As much as I know you folks in New York would hate to lose the engine (I know how I would feel in a similar situation) I also think she belongs with the other PRR steamers in Strasburg. If I were in charge of the museum in SB I would offer the owners of 4483 a swap, I would give them former NKP Berk 757 (owned by the museum) in a clean trade for 4483. I think the Berk would be more appropriate to New York then Eastern PA, and that would bring 4483 home with the rest of the PRR historical collection. She would get a nice cosmetic restoration I'm sure by the Friends of the PARR Museum, and hopefully put inside. Shame I'm not in charge, but do you think they would be at all interested, from a theoretical point of view? Tom von Trott *********** REPLY PARTITION *********** On 12/20/97, at 10:53 PM, RTSILLER wrote: >Following the recent thread of saved locos, I figured now was the time to set >up my page on the photos I have of I1 #4483. I only live about 15 minutes >from where it is stored, and it's behind a hobby shop (isn't life grand), so I >ran over and shot a roll of film in October. Please visit the following page >to see the current state of the last remaining I1: > >http://members.aol.com/rtsiller/PRRinWNY.html > >This constitutes several firsts for me; my first post to PRR-Talk and my first >web page, so please forgive any format errors. I have gained so much useful >info from this forum, I figured it was time to try and return the favor. > >As you can see by the photos, #4483 is a long way from doing anything other >than just sit there. According to someone I talked from the Western New York >Railway Historical Society at the last train show, they still plan on fixing >it up. The problem is, they have so many projects going and #4483 is not on >the top of their list. Last I heard, the WNYRHS was pretty firm on keeping >control of #4483. I'll try to find more info and keep you updated. > >Please pass on any info or references you may have on #4483, or any other PRR >equipment in Western New York. > >Happy Holidays, >Rick Siller (rtsiller@aol.com) > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: FAQ on TrainPhone / Other FAQs Date: Sun, 21 Dec 97 16:04:58 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1633 I have finally gotten around to editing the FAQ on the TrainPhone system which was initially posted with some errors. Take a look, and let me know where corrections are needed. Please respond direct, to keep list traffic down. As for other FAQs, if anyone would like to author a FAQ on a topic not already covered by my FAQs page, go for it! Just submit a complete essay via your e-mail client and mail it to me direct. I will add the HTM codes (Web stuff) and the header and footer stuff. Can always use some extra keyboard help! As for the list, the Conrail list has been busier lately. There are 120+ people on that list, in addition to the 160+ on PRR-Talk. All the activity has taxed the server somewhat. That, combined with users who have "full mailboxes" or "server not available" as reported by my listserv log, does indeed cause some users to receive posts out of order or concurrently. The domains causing the greatest backlogs are AOL.COM and WEBTV.COM. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 15:55:42 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: HO scale PRR signals? Content-Length: 1692 The thread on signal aspects got me started thinking about signaling; I dug out an old brass NJ International PRR style signal I picked up probably 10 years ago (when my primary income came from a paper route(!)) and was fooling with some circuitry using components on-hand, when i realized it looked kinda, well, big! Do I recall that someone mentioned a concern making scale (or close-to) PRR signals, albeit quite expensive? Not that I have the $$$ now, but maybe in a month or so I can pick one up and evaulate it for my needs.... In other "news" I had the pleasure this past Monday of following the old Fort Wayne west from East Palestine (where my previous jaunt left off) to Alliance, and then heading north toward Cleveland, where we visited the tower at Berea (because my friend, who was driving, wanted to see it and get some pix... but it was dark by then). On the way back we skirted the south of Cleveland and while randomly picking roads which looked like they paralleled the tracks we went through a scene i recognized: the lead to the Chrysler stamping plant at Twinsburg as seen in one of the Pennsy Diesel Years books! Quite fun. Still pushing to head for Crestline next time, even if it has been downgraded.... -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 21 Dec 97 16:07:17 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: The I1 Content-Length: 9991 --====48505348555449564851===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Excellent idea, Tom! I would really hate to see the last I1 sit and deteriorate further while a bunch of well-meaning amateurs finish off a bunch of other projects dearer to their hearts, most probably having something to do with the initials N-Y-C. The I1 should really be at Strasburg. Personally, I think the I1 is the engine most representative of the PRR in steam. -- Doug Drew Tom von Trott wrote: >Thanks for the pictures of the I1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I've been looking for >pics of the girl for ever!!! I'm just glad to see she really does exist. What >is your opinion on the people who want to move the 4483 down the the museum in >Strasburg? As much as I know you folks in New York would hate to lose the engine >(I know how I would feel in a similar situation) I also think she belongs with the >other PRR steamers in Strasburg. If I were in charge of the museum in SB I >would offer the owners of 4483 a swap, I would give them former NKP Berk 757 (owned >by the museum) in a clean trade for 4483. I think the Berk would be more >appropriate to New York then Eastern PA, and that would bring 4483 home with the rest of >the PRR historical collection. She would get a nice cosmetic restoration I'm >sure by the Friends of the PARR Museum, and hopefully put inside. Shame I'm not in >charge, but do you think they would be at all interested, from a theoretical >point of view? > >Tom von Trott > > > >*********** REPLY PARTITION *********** > >On 12/20/97, at 10:53 PM, RTSILLER wrote: > >>Following the recent thread of saved locos, I figured now was the time to set >>up my page on the photos I have of I1 #4483. I only live about 15 minutes >>from where it is stored, and it's behind a hobby shop (isn't life grand), so I >>ran over and shot a roll of film in October. Please visit the following page >>to see the current state of the last remaining I1: >> >>http://members.aol.com/rtsiller/PRRinWNY.html >> >>This constitutes several firsts for me; my first post to PRR-Talk and my first >>web page, so please forgive any format errors. I have gained so much useful >>info from this forum, I figured it was time to try and return the favor. >> >>As you can see by the photos, #4483 is a long way from doing anything other >>than just sit there. According to someone I talked from the Western New York >>Railway Historical Society at the last train show, they still plan on fixing >>it up. The problem is, they have so many projects going and #4483 is not on >>the top of their list. Last I heard, the WNYRHS was pretty firm on keeping >>control of #4483. I'll try to find more info and keep you updated. >> >>Please pass on any info or references you may have on #4483, or any other PRR >>equipment in Western New York. >> >>Happy Holidays, >>Rick Siller (rtsiller@aol.com) >> >>------------------------------------------------------------- >>Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >>cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >>------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====48505348555449564851===1 From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: EMD Cab Units and Lift Rings Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 16:16:42 -0500 Content-Length: 726 Beside the PRR, what roads used the lift rings on the nose of EMD cab units? I know that NYC did not and that is the sighting feature for PC units being ex PRR. I have images of a MILW E unit and an Amtrak FP7 in CA with them. Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Modeling survey... Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 18:15:21 -0500 Content-Length: 1403 I would like to ask all of you modelers out there a couple of questions...... But first a little background. I own a small model company, and am interested in producing some serious PRR items. We have the ability to run products in pewter, etched metals, urethane (99% bubble free) and more. We are planning to produce a PRR K4, # 3768 in HO scale. Ready to run, very detailed and for less than $300.00 It will have a Bowser mechanism. Anyhow, what I would like to know is: 1. What motive power would you like to see, and in what scale? 2. What cars would you like/scale? 3. What MOW equip./scale? 4. What buildings/scale? 5. What signals or controlling devices/scale? 6. Any suggestions outside the above? 7. Are there any scratchbuilder/master makers who would like to join this effort and have items produced? 8. Thank you all for your contributions and your time. You can send direct e-mail to liberty@infonline.net Joe Zappa, PRR T&HS #6211 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 19:03:49 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Merry Christmas Content-Length: 975 Hello folks... Well Christmas time (for most of us)is almost here... At this time i would like to wish everyone a most happy Christmas,and for anyone who follows a different faith a most wonderful holliday time of the year... This past year has been most enjoyable..what with all the chat and exchanges of information and ideas of our favorite railroad...The late great Pennsylvania Railroad. Best wishes to all Hank Mummert & family ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 19:31:07 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Half "G" Content-Length: 746 Hi folks... Harry Fitch and i have been talking about the half "G" that used to be at Wilmington Shops...i mentioned it to him and he gave me some info on it. I thought i had'nt seen things then. Was a long time ago. Did anyone else see it?..what happened to it? H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 20:55:39 EST Subject: PRR Signs Content-Length: 598 I'm looking for some information on PRR station & tower signs. I need to know sizes, shapes, colors, and any other useful information. Thanks, Todd Horton CENTGA @ aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: Half "G" Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 21:43:13 -0500 Content-Length: 1718 Hi Harry, Just so happens that I have seen this engine, and I have a picture of it that I took on a tour of the shops when # 4935 was being reworked for service. She was cut in half and was used for shop movements plus was the track BLOWER to remove snow from the tracks in the service areas. I don't think she went out on the main line though. Bill Knepper (boxcar46@nfdc.net) ---------- > From: bubbles@visi.net > To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com > Subject: Half "G" > Date: Sunday, December 21, 1997 7:31 PM > > Hi folks... > Harry Fitch and i have been talking about the half "G" that used to be at > Wilmington Shops...i mentioned it to him and he gave me some info on it. > I thought i had'nt seen things then. Was a long time ago. > Did anyone else see it?..what happened to it? > > H.Mummert > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 19:46:58 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: Steam loco details Content-Length: 932 Hello and Merry Christmas! I have a few questions for anyone in the know out there..... What was the wheel diameter on the Steam Turbine S-2? And what was the wheel diameter on the L1s? I am considering trying a kit bash in N-scale to make an S-2 loco. I have a Bachman 4-8-4 in N but the HO version has much larger drivers than my HO S-2. Any ideas? Also, what years were the SW9/1200s made? I am modeling up to the year 1952 and I am considering Lifelike's SW9/1200. Thanks, Roger Elliott ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 01:32:14 EST Subject: Re: Steam loco details Content-Length: 1720 Hi Roger, In reference to your questions concerning driver size for the S2 and L1: The S2 was equipped with 68" drivers and the L1 had 62 inchers. If you're looking for a true match it will probably have to come from a G5. They were the only ones that also had 68's. The Q2 had 69 inchers and the J1/J1a's had 70's. While I'm still on the same page....the S2 had a class 180P85 tender. BTW, where are you going to come up with those 6 wheel leading and trailing trucks. Sounds like you've really taken on a project. Good luck and Merry Christmas. (With regard to your question pertaining to the SW9/ 1200, I believe that Jerry's site contains a complete listing of all PRR diesels which includes (I think) the dates built). Regards, George >> Hello and Merry Christmas! I have a few questions for anyone in the know out there..... What was the wheel diameter on the Steam Turbine S-2? And what was the wheel diameter on the L1s? I am considering trying a kit bash in N-scale to make an S-2 loco. I have a Bachman 4-8-4 in N but the HO version has much larger drivers than my HO S-2. Any ideas? Also, what years were the SW9/1200s made? I am modeling up to the year 1952 and I am considering Lifelike's SW9/1200. Thanks, Roger Elliott >> ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Branchline FOM From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 08:35:38 -0500 Content-Length: 787 According to Bob Benson at Branchline Trains they are ConCor cars decorated by Branchline. They have trucks with metal wheels and NMRA couplers. Harold Lines South, The Florida Trains - ------------ Is the fact that they have: "trucks with metal wheels and NMRA couplers" supposed to compensate for their being WRONG?? regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Modeling survey... From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 09:01:01 -0500 Content-Length: 2852 Joe, You will probably have opened the flood gates with this one! So here comes my 2 gallons worth. First I think you may be investing a lot in the K4 and be unable to compete with Bowser. Unless the engine has "brass detail" quality and can pull like a Bowser, I suspect $300 will drive customers away. I would shoot for an engine with less competion but common on the PRR. My candid is a B6. But what will peolple pay for a switcher? My concern is with rolling stock. No one has ever made a reasonable P70gs. It was the primary moderized, streamlined, day coach on the PRR. If you could make inexpensive brass sides or urethane castings for that car, I for one would buy several. A D70 diner has never been done either, and the PRR had dozens. How about the MP54! It might have wide appeal. In it non-electrified version, it is a prototypoe shorty! It can legitamatly be painted for at least 6 different roads that I know of(PRR, LIRR, PC, NJT, B&M, SEPTA). regards Andy Miller I would like to ask all of you modelers out there a couple of questions...... But first a little background. I own a small model company, and am interested in producing some serious PRR items. We have the ability to run products in pewter, etched metals, urethane (99% bubble free) and more. We are planning to produce a PRR K4, # 3768 in HO scale. Ready to run, very detailed and for less than $300.00 It will have a Bowser mechanism. Anyhow, what I would like to know is: 1. What motive power would you like to see, and in what scale? 2. What cars would you like/scale? 3. What MOW equip./scale? 4. What buildings/scale? 5. What signals or controlling devices/scale? 6. Any suggestions outside the above? 7. Are there any scratchbuilder/master makers who would like to join this effort and have items produced? 8. Thank you all for your contributions and your time. You can send direct e-mail to liberty@infonline.net Joe Zappa, PRR T&HS #6211 - ------------------------------------------------------------ Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------ For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 09:46:15 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: modeling survey Content-Length: 2930 At 06:15 PM 12/21/97 -0500, you wrote: >I would like to ask all of you modelers out there a couple of >questions...... >But first a little background. I own a small model company, and am >interested in producing some serious PRR items. We have the ability to run >products in pewter, etched metals, urethane (99% bubble free) and more. We >are planning to produce a PRR K4, # 3768 in HO scale. Ready to run, very >detailed and for less than $300.00 >It will have a Bowser mechanism. Greetings, What material would the body casting be????? > Anyhow, what I would like to know is: >1. What motive power would you like to see, and in what scale? Baldwin VO1000, Baldwin DRS6-4-20(Sharknose), Baldwin DR4-4-15 & RF16(Sharknose)in both "A" & "B" units, Fairbanks-Morse CFA16-4 in both "A" & "B" units. All HO scale >2. What cars would you like/scale? Merchandise Service 50 footers, HO scale. >3. What MOW equip./scale? No preference, but HO scale. >4. What buildings/scale? No preference, but HO scale. >5. What signals or controlling devices/scale? No preference, but HO scale. >6. Any suggestions outside the above? Passenger cars, especially those known as Fleet of Modernism, HO scale. >7. Are there any scratchbuilder/master makers who would like to join this >effort and have items produced? Can't answer this one, I'm only a kitbasher have never worked with masters to produce the kits. I would think that most would prefer the models to have injection molded polystyrene bodies with metal chassis for motive power. Same type body with molded plastic chassis would be suitable for rolling stock. Evidently you are planning to produce a PRR K4 body with a bowser chassis. A better approach might be to produce a body for mounting on the Bowser chassis. The K4 has been done by several manufacturers. I am not a steam fancier but from listening to the PRR talk I'll bet a H10 (2-8-0),a I1(2-10-0) or a L1(2-8-2) would be more warmly received. I think Bowser makes chassis for all these engines. Concentrate on the correct tender for these units, this is an area where most manufacturers have dropped the ball....... >8. Thank you all for your contributions and your time. > >You can send direct e-mail to liberty@infonline.net > >Joe Zappa, PRR T&HS #6211 > > > Good luck with this project, and Merry Christmas........ Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 11:05:51 EST From: Subject: N6 cabin cars Content-Length: 945 Happy Holidays every one, I have a question regarding N6 cabin cars. Can anyone describe what the roof of these cars was made from? ie, was it tar covered sheet metal, tar covered fabric (like canvas), plain old sheet metal painted black? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Different topic -- Is it safe to assume that the running boards atop freight cars were made from wood? And as such would be greatly prone to weathering to a gray tone much more quickly than the rest of the car? Kris Kollar ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR Signs Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 11:28:23 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1340 Hi, The 57 Plans book that has been mentioned quite a bit lately has the diagram for the font and general station sign layout and placement. I scanned the drawings and made up a little cgi routine that lets you enter a string and then makes up a PRR station sign. It's at... http://www.internexus.net/~robs/PRR/makesign.shtml I'm not sure about the colors I used. I know that the signs were red and yellow but I don't think I matched them very well. If anyone has a RGB color that matches better let me know and I'll change it. I don't have the diagrams in front of me so I don't know what the actual height of the signs were... A question I had is what about the signs with the keystone in the middle, (like the logo for "The Keystone." The diagrams in the book only show the rounded rectangular signs like I used on my page. Where & when were the keystone shaped signs used? ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR Signs Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 11:28:32 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1345 Hi, The 57 Plans book that has been mentioned quite a bit lately has the diagram for the font and general station sign layout and placement. I scanned the drawings and made up a little cgi routine that lets you enter a string and then makes up a PRR station sign. It's at... http://www.internexus.net/~robs/PRR/makesign.shtml I'm not sure about the colors I used. I know that the signs were red and yellow but I don't think I matched them very well. If anyone has a RGB color that matches better let me know and I'll change it. I don't have the diagrams in front of me so I don't know what the actual height of the signs were... A question I had is what about the signs with the keystone in the middle, (like the logo for "The Keystone." The diagrams in the book only show the rounded rectangular signs like I used on my page. Where & when were the keystone shaped signs used? Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 16:31:16 +0000 Subject: Signals and survey From: locoshop@juno.com (Jeremy C Helms) Content-Length: 1247 Hello all, On the signal question, I see that we keep bringing up the "oversized" NJ signals, and no others are mentioned as being available. I believe we are overlooking some of the best signals on the market--Oregon Rail Supply. These signals look great and you can get a diode logic board to help them run correctly. Through ORS you can even buy the detection kits for them. These signals, in my mind, look the best all around--hence the reason that they are sometimes hard to get. On the survey, I myself would even love to see a GOOD "shark-nose" diesel and I would love Centipedes (now I am dreaming okay) cause I could NOT afford the $1300 price on the pair of Overlands recently. I would also love to see an PRR interlocking tower like ALTO in Altoona:-). Of course all of the preceding are in HO scale. Jeremy Helms ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Subject: FWD: Branchline Trains FoM Set Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:41:31 Content-Length: 2100 ----- Forwarded Message Starts Here ----- From: jerry@dsop.com Date: Fri, 19 Dec 97 13:29:20 -0400 To: PRR-Talk Subject: Branchline Trains FoM Set As is, this is a false alarm. No matter how sharply BT produces the paint job, it ain't gonna satisfy us prototypical modelers. Remember, the only PRR trains that got the "FoM" treatment were the Blue Ribbon trains ("Broadway Limited", "Liberty Limited", "The General", and "The Spirit of St. Louis"; and later to include the "Golden Triangle" and the "Pittsburgher"). Though these trains had some coaches, by far their consist was mostly sleepers. And BT isn't including any sleepers in their set!!! ----- Forwarded Message Ends Here ----- Hi, everyone, I'm no expert on PRR passenger cars and train consists but I have observed in a number of color videos taken in the late 1940's that FoM cars were used in trains other than those mentioned above. In most cases, it appears that the FoM cars that weren't repainted by, say, 1949 were mixed into the regular pool of cars. For example, I saw at least two or three FoM cars in Clarence Weaver's "Susquehanna Div" video on passenger trains running between Harrisburg and Northumberland. Ditto for film taken on the Middle Div. and out near St. Louis. I don't know how to spot a sleeper unless the window spacing is obviously too irregular for a coach, so Jerry may still be right. BTW, anyone have an idea when the last FoM cars were painted over? I've seen a few in photos as late as 1950. As one who craves a couple of FoM cars for the layout, I hope Jerry is successful with the Branchline folks! PRR forever! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Position signals Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 11:52:45 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1120 Zeolla wrote: > > Tonight, while driving home on the NJ Turnpike, I noticed a set of > position signals on the NEC mainline that parallels the turnpike just > outside of the tunnels under the Hudson. > > I'm not an expert on these lights, but I think that vertical means > "clear", horizontal means "stop", and diagonal means "caution"(?). > > What I found unusual was that one of the signals was diagonal and > flashing. Is this normal? What does it signify? Is it an Amtrak thing > or did the PRR do the same? I have a scan of a Conrail signal aspects chart on my site... Go to http://www.internexus.net/~robs/PRR/AdsImagesandMore.shtml and follow the link from there. Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Subject: FWD: Re: PRR Signs Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:19:09 Content-Length: 2601 ----- Forwarded Message Starts Here ----- From: robs@protocol.zycad.com Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 11:28:32 -0500 To: CENTGA Subject: Re: PRR Signs Hi, The 57 Plans book that has been mentioned quite a bit lately has the diagram for the font and general station sign layout and placement. I scanned the drawings and made up a little cgi routine that lets you enter a string and then makes up a PRR station sign. It's at... http://www.internexus.net/~robs/PRR/makesign.shtml I'm not sure about the colors I used. I know that the signs were red and yellow but I don't think I matched them very well. If anyone has a RGB color that matches better let me know and I'll change it. I don't have the diagrams in front of me so I don't know what the actual height of the signs were... A question I had is what about the signs with the keystone in the middle, (like the logo for "The Keystone." The diagrams in the book only show the rounded rectangular signs like I used on my page. Where & when were the keystone shaped signs used? Rob ----- Forwarded Message Ends Here ----- Hi, everyone, I had a grafic designer friend do up some PRR signs for me on his MAC and they came out beautiful. He chose the colors from a Pantone color selection in his program. If you can get the basic sign done and put on disk, you can probably take it to a place like Kinko Copies and they can do the colors for you - I had mine printed at Kinko's from disk and they are gorgeous. Now RE when the Keystone was used on a station sign, I still haven't figured it out. There seems to be some connection to the importance of the town/city -- smaller places got the rectangular signs. But this was not always so. After going through many published photos of PRR stations, I still don't know what the protocol was or even if there was one. One thought -- the real signs had gold and bright red for the colors but with raised lettereing and border. To help get the right effect on a flat surface, I had the letters and the border outlined in black. It looks much better to the eye. PRR forever! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963 Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:20:44 EST Subject: Re: Modeling survey... Content-Length: 671 Any PRR locomotive built between 1890 and 1905 The following types would help fill in the gaps for PRR locomotives built since 1906 Type 0-4-0, Class A4, Switcher Type 0-6-0, Class B6sb or B8, Switcher Type 4-4-0, Class D16, Passenger ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: The end of "Keystone Crossings" and "PRR-Talk"? Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 13:48:43 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 2700 It is with great sorrow that I announce the impending end of "Keystone Crossings", "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-Talk" and the sites that I host for free: the Northern Central Chapter of the PRRT&HS and the Keystone Model Railroad Historical Society. My site currently has a 56K link to the Internet, at a cost of $100 per month ($1200/year). I have solicited to host web sites for $20 per month (up to 50MB, with FTP account) and sponsorship of the mailing lists and/or "Keystone Crossings" for $20 per month. However, I recently had to dismiss one of my Web hosting customers for lack of payment. And, today, Bob Boyd of "Those Classic Trains" notified me that he is moving on. Bob sites that my site is often down, something that I cannot substantiate. He also says he has been unable to FTP HTML files, something I do on a daily basis from a remote site. Furthermore, he did not give me the two months notice he had agreed on. (On a defensive note, I often receive e-mails about dead links on his site and the server returning an error. That is solely his fault because he placed links on his pages for other pages that were not yet in existence (not yet loaded). Any of the list subscribers that write their own HTML will attest to this reaction by a server to a request for a non-existent page.) All this has left me with only $20 per month in income. Since I have effectively dissolved my computer reselling operations, I cannot afford to continue "donating" $80 per month into the PRR community. What can you do? First off, I do not want donations. What you can do is if you are directly involved in a business that can benefit from a site on my server or can benefit from advertising sponsorship, contact me immediately. Also, tell railroad vendors that you frequent about these opportunities. Unless some clientele/sponsorship is developed by the end of January, February 28 will be the end of the aforementioned Internet services by my site. 8-( Regretfully, Jerry P.S. Happy holidays! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:55:04 Content-Length: 4006 Hi, gang, Another of my PRR Christmas presents to myself just arrived - a PRR history by Mike Schaeffer and another fellow whose names escapes me. Cost me $18 and is worth it. The book has many interesting photos, many in color, and the printing is excellent. It is a general history of the PRR and from what I've read so far does a pretty decent job. It seems especially good on lines west of Pittsburgh, including a brief history of how the PRR acquired the line and why. There's nothing earth-shaking here but I think many of you would like it, especially for its introductory character. On another note, I've observed the discussion of a cyber chapter and the talk about too much focus on lines east. There's a deeper issue here and I speak as one who has done rr research and edits a rr historical society newsletter. In the case of the PRR the problem is that much of the info we want was available but only in company documents and many of these reside in the collections of the folks insightful enough to have acquired this material when it was more available and affordable. Now here's the rub - many of these folks are already busy and even if they get well-meaning and serious inquiries don't have time or funds to respond. Therefore, the real need as I see it is to get these guys to make copies of their raw data and/or (better yet) scan it into electronic form so more people can have access to it. Another related issue - there are some public collections, like the Hagley Museum in Delaware, that have extensive PRR holdings. The catch is that you usually have to go there to really use the stuff and then be prepared to slog through a lot of materials you may not need to get to those that you do. In other words, much of what I hear many of us wanting is more access to basic documentation. Getting the Lewistown archives organized and accessible will help but again, unless I miss my guess, you'll have to go there in person when it's opened and figure on spending a few days going through documents. And Lewistown won't be ready for a while if I read things right. But even if we did this more, there's another thing to keep in mind -- my seat-of-the-pants sense is that not that many folks out there are on the Web and computer savvy. Most of us are or we wouldn't be reading this but you'd be surprised how many folks aren't. In the HS who's newsletter I edit, out of 180 members, only about 8 have sent in e-mail addresses, and many of these are in connection with their work, rather than their own home machines (I'm one such). My point - much as the Web, e-mail, etc. looks so great to us, not that many people really use it or care to and we need to keep our perspective on such matters when it comes to availability of info, maintenance of web sites, etc. I guess this is my way of saying we need to be patient as groups like the PRR T&HS move into the electronic age, bearing in mind that electronic improvements may not be that vital to the vast majority of PRR fans. The best thing we can do in the short run, I believe, is commit ourselves to taking a couple of days each year to do basic research and making what we find as widely available as possible. That's already happening thanks to Jerry and Mark B. and others who keep scanning more and more into their web sites - let's all head for the libraries, archives, etc. and add to the info! That's more than enough for now - have a joyous Christmas all. PRR forever! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: Re: position signals Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:28:40 -0800 Content-Length: 3500 Zeolla wrote: > What I found unusual was that one of the signals was diagonal and > flashing. Is this normal? What does it signify? Is it an Amtrak thing > or did the PRR do the same? Depends on whether it was the top or bottom head (from your description, it sounds like a single flashing head). The signal in question near the hudson tubes was almost certainly a single target advance-approach aspect. There are crossovers just before the last curve and at portal where a medium-approach could possibly be displayed, but I would think it would be extremely rare to see. Crossover moves on this section of double track would only be used in the case of disasters and very-middle-of-the-night maintainance. With the amount of traffic in both directions, changing the current of traffic would be a dispatching nightmare, not to mention pointless. If it was the top (single) head, it's an Advance Approach (proceed prepared to stop at second signal, reduce to limited speed); steady horizontal over flashing 45 degree is a Medium Approach (proceed prepared to stop at next signal, reduce to medium speed). The Advance Approach first was used on the NEC (ex-PRR) on the 694 block signal at Croydon and at Croy Interlocking when Croy was put in service, as the conversion of the switch on No. 1 track shortened the block lengths. Advance approach was installed a long time ago at metropark (Islen NJ) in advance to Lincoln. Are you sure the Croy installation predated Metropark? The Medium Approach has been around since PRR days; at least one of the interlocking signals at Brill (No. 1 track northward?) displayed it, as do some of the signals going into the upper level of 30th Street Station from the north (west) end. Lessee... ----- ----- / \ / o\ | o o o | < steady | o | < flashing \ / \o / ----- ----- | | ----- | / o\ | | o | < flashing | \o / | ----- | | | Medium Approach Advance Approach Someone also mentioned the caution indication as well. The caution aspect used a backwards diagonal and was used in manual block territory. Whew... :-) Ken ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: X-29 boxcars Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:53:45 -0600 Content-Length: 894 Andrew Miller wrote: "However anther truck to consider is the PRR 2D-F12 (I think thats the number) Its the truck with one coil spring and one leaf spring. Thousands of these were put on X-29s and they are available from Bowser who made them for their X31s." I would just comment that these are exceptionally free rolling. I just bought eight sets for my Westerfield work train set, since I saw some pictures of work cars with these trucks. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:18:29 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: The end of "Keystone Crossings" and "PRR-Talk"? Content-Length: 841 Well, I have no money for the next two months, no business, etc, but if push comes to shove I'd be happy to host the lists and web pages; If Jerry wished to continue to administer any or all of those it could be set up so he could do so. I'm in the enviable position of not paying for my network (I pay for power instead, but that hasn't been a problem yet...) That's about the best I can do right now... -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: Modeling survey... Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:29:13 -0600 Content-Length: 1454 Joe Zappa wrote: 2. What cars would you like/scale? I would vote for K7a stockcar (tough tooling, I admit) and X40 60' Merchandise Service LCL boxcar. Although I have two brass versions, an R50b express reefer would also be useful, since us passenger types could use even more. In HO. X23 would be nice, but I believe Westerfield is tooling. B74B would be nice, but I have this premonition that Bethlehem car works may do (not starting a rumor--just a hunch,or wishful thinking). Always wanted a D82, but that could be done by Union Station Products or special order from OK. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: The end of "Keystone Crossings" and "PRR-Talk"? Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 14:30:03 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1850 Jerry, For just hosting a web page, why do you feel the need to host it on your own machine & have your own domain? I currenly pay $25 a month for my dialup PPP connection. With that I get web space & cgi access on his server. My ISP says that there is no quota on disk space but my site isn't all that huge yet anyway. I'm sure other isp's offer similar pricing. Going this route might preclude having huge pdf files but there's no reason to have to drop the site entirely. I don't get my own domain and don't have control over the server (then again I don't have to worry about it either) but I spend $900 a year less than you! And my site gets T1 access to the net too. While I hope you don't, if you must get out of the hosting business, I am pretty sure that my ISP will allow me to host the mailing lists on his machine. I'd rather not have to handle the administration but I'm formally extending the offer if it's the only way to keep the lists alive. Also, While I admire your trying to host sites and use the profit to get a higher speed line, I have a feeling that most businesses won't be terrible satisfied with having their site accessed at 33 Kbaud. You have a chicken and the egg type problem here: without hosting you can't afford a faster line, and with out a faster line, you'll probably have a hard time attracting site hosting customers. Just some thoughts, Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: 57 standard plans of the PRR (was: Re: Modeling Super Elevation Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:36:06 EST Content-Length: 2292 > I've toyed with tracking down Mr. > Smith to inquire about the rights. It could be a great fundraiser for either > PRRMO or the Cyberchapter. It's definitely the type of document needed by > modelers that's been in extremely short supply for SPF modelers. Tom et al., I hope the publisher has no rights to those drawings. As y'all may know, the rights would reside with the PRR had they copyrighted them - which they did not. To get around copyrights, companies sometimes introduce intentional errors. This marks the product as theirs. Maps are a great example: map publishers often have a specific error on each page that, if reproduced by some other map maker, identifies the new copy as a plagiarized version. The publisher of _57 Standard Plans ..._ may have done this. But we have one better. I have a multitude of Standard Plans in my own collection, salvaged from the basement of a specific site that my sources (consisting of me) do not wish to disclose publicly, which are _original copies_. I happen to have a large, but unfortunately not complete, collection. My main PRR project right now consists of interlocking diagrams. However, given demand, I can scan and post the standard plans. Many are terribly dry and boring, things like bolt sizes, thread numbers, characteristics for metals used in this and that, etc. Other stuff is much more interesting. If others here have Standard Plans in their posession that fill out the gaps in my collection, I'll be happy to borrow, scan, and post them, if such posessors are willing temporarily to part with their posessees :-) for the said purpose. These things are larger than normal format (legal size?) but worse - very detailed. Thus, a high scanning resolution will have to be used for good reproduction. So we're talking a good chunk of disk space. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Modeling survey... Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:56:20 EST Content-Length: 2072 > 1. What motive power would you like to see, and in what scale? > 2. What cars would you like/scale? > 3. What MOW equip./scale? > 4. What buildings/scale? > 5. What signals or controlling devices/scale? > 6. Any suggestions outside the above? > 7. Are there any scratchbuilder/master makers who would like to join this > effort and have items produced? > 8. Thank you all for your contributions and your time. PRR had several semi-standard station designs, each designed for towns/ cities of a certain size. See Lancaster, Johnstown for medium-city ones; Newport, Pa. (west of Harrisburg) and others for small-town ones. Not easily built otherwise. PRR towers: again, about 2-4 designs would suffice for a large portion of the system. Signals: (and in reply to another post): NJI's are out of scale. There's this fellow Amos ... (forgive me: it's either Amos or Amos, don't even know which) out of St. Louis who makes scale signals by hand out of brass, using LEDs - nice, but not cheap. He's at PRRTHS meetings, check his stuff out. He mounts on mast, bracket post, or one of 4 bridges as per your wishes. No one to my knowledge makes PRR-typical catenary stuff. There were at 4 styles that I can think of (Paoli line as a special case; I-beam construction all around: by far the most common; round uprights as near Wilmington and ??Newark International; then those heavy catenary-anchor bridges, many of which are near Philly). (THen there's the ad-hoc varieties, like the catenary held up by wooden posts at the tail ends of the cat wire in Enola Yard and Harrisburg Yard. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:01:41 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Steam loco details Content-Length: 825 Roger Elliott wrote: > > What was the wheel diameter on the Steam Turbine S-2? Roger, Along with the 68 inch drivers, as stated by George Eichhorn, please be aware that the S-2 driver axle spacing was 72 inches between the first and second axles, 90 inches between the second and third axles, and 72 inches between the third and fourth axles. (Ref MR Mag, March, 1948). Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:20:36 EST Subject: Seasons Greetings and Accolades Content-Length: 1535 To Jerry and all, Jerry, your efforts in the production of 'Keystone Crossings' are to be highly acclaimed. You have provided me with a rekindled interest in a hobby that I had been away from for a good many years. I just wanted you to know that I for one, am most appreciative of your efforts. This format has provided an avenue whereby, when a question is asked a reply is almost immediate and by some very knowledgeable people (who know the answers.) Being an old Long Island boy, I sometimes have to break out the maps to relate to some of the discussions of places I'm unfamiliar with but, this just adds to the education and enjoyment of it all. Along those same lines, I would hope that the Historical Society can be influenced to allow an association with the future, and be made to see the benefits of such an alliance with the cyberworld. So, I thank you all for the answers to the questions I and others have posed and may you all receive the railroading gift you most desire to be found beneath your tree come Christmas morning. Holiday Greetings and thanks to all, George ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:46:49 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: END! Content-Length: 999 At 01:48 PM 12/22/97 -0400, you wrote: >It is with great sorrow that I announce the impending end of "Keystone >Crossings", "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-Talk" and the sites that I host for >free: the Northern Central Chapter of the PRRT&HS and the Keystone Model >Railroad Historical Society. > Greetings, I remember you saying there were about 160 or so members of PRR-Talk. Heck that works out to about 62 cents per member. I would be willing to pay $1.00/month to keep us up and running.....What do others think????? Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:01:47 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: Re: Steam engine details and other stuff Content-Length: 1343 Hello all, Thanks for the info on the drivers of the L1s and the S-2. Although the measurements will be off by 6 inches, I'm thinking about kit-bashing the chassis off a Kato Mikado. By cutting and putting together two assemblies to make the 6 wheel trianing truck from the Bachman Northern's trailing trucks and using its tender, I might be able to pull off a fair representation of the S-2 in N-scale. For the front truck, I think the six wheel tender truck from a Concor J3a should be pretty close. The Boiler will be the hardest part since I don't have machine tools. Does anyone out there have experience and desire with making a chassis? I could put up with the Kato chassis as is, but as you know there is a bit of a gap between the middle drivers. Another question: What color were passenger service PA-1s painted before 1950? Did they have the 5 stripe or single stripe theme? Happy Holidays! Roger Elliott ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:23:50 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: Modeling survey... Content-Length: 2450 >I would like to ask all of you modelers out there a couple of >questions...... >But first a little background. I own a small model company, and am >interested in producing some serious PRR items. We have the ability to run >products in pewter, etched metals, urethane (99% bubble free) and more. We >are planning to produce a PRR K4, # 3768 in HO scale. Ready to run, very >detailed and for less than $300.00 >It will have a Bowser mechanism. Sounds nice . What are you going to do to make it "better" than Bowser? Just RTR isn't going to cut it for me. How about appropriate versions for different eras (solid vs slatted pilots, generator position etc) Will it be DCC ready? Isolated can motor? Seperate headlamp and back up light leads? What tender will you be releasing with it? > Anyhow, what I would like to know is: >1. What motive power would you like to see, and in what scale? I would love to see the P5a Electric, both Boxcab and Modified versions in HO (I personally would need about 5-10 of each!). Don't bother with RTR - I'd be happy with a detailed resin shell (better be better than Nova tech or no sale), chassis, drivetrain and details! As for cars, both the X31/32/33 series and the N5/N5c that Bowser did could be rerun without the cast on handrails a la P2K and I would be very happy! Good Luck and keep us posted! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology Scientist, Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 22 Dec 97 16:58:22 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: (long) Content-Length: 17771 --====51505248495651535251===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Well said, George. I think you have really hit the nail on the head, in terms of the fundamental challenge facing a 'cyber' chapter of the PRR T & HS -- CONTENT!!! Everyone seems to forget that content doesn't just jump onto the web -- it still has to be found, sorted through, analyzed, permission for use obtained, keyed in, scanned in, edited, retouched, converted to a format usable on the web, posted and hosted. This stuff takes tons of time in a world where everyone seems to have less free time than ever. Mark Bej and Jerry Britton have done all of us SPF's a great service, by posting as much excellent PRR content as they have. Another issue is that, the people that know the Real Deal about this stuff are dying off. I mean actual knowledge about how and when the equipment or installation was built, maintained, used, misused, scrapped. Just because a document exists, a drawing or whatever, doesn't mean that's how the actual article or installation was really implemented. I find operational stuff (movement of trains, blocking, yard operations, tower operation, dispatching) in particular is extremely difficult to find and interpret correctly, as often one had to 'be there' in order to really know how things were done. This kind of stuff is key to intelligently designing a model railroad layout, based on PRR trackage and operations. Anyone that last worked on the Pennsy is now almost 30 years older than the day PRR merged with that green railroad, and anyone who remembers the road in steam is 40 years older than when the last fires were dropped. A lot of the people with the 'whiskers' to know a lot of the dope on the above have gone to their reward -- oh, what tales they could have told... anyone remember the true stories about firing PRR steam out of North Jersey, written by Lloyd Arkinstall in Trains? Solid gold... There is also the problem with the possessiveness of some individuals or organizations. To my mind, everyone's goal ought to be to build interest in the PRR in order to create a groundswell for more (and more accurate) books and models of PRR equipment and structures in all scales. Unfortunately, not everyone is a modeler or book collector, and so those folks couldn't care less about the above groundswell. I have encountered a lot of individuals who seem to view ownership of such materials a financial investment that is going to garner them thousands if and when they choose to sell them. Maybe so -- that is, if anyone even remembers what the PRR was by the time they choose to part with their artifacts. Since by next year two successors of PRR will have come and gone, the Mighty Pennsy is fading into the historical twilight. The same issue applies to various historical societies, that feel distribution of such data over the web is going to rob them of revenues from their printed publications. A railroad of the size of PRR must have so much publishable material that is as yet untapped, that paper as we know it will probably become obsolete before said societies can even publish half of it. Again, are they doing themselves any service by hoarding such information? The third problem is, as you said, simply gaining access to the material. Most libraries that possess material of interest to us SPF's have that material in Special Collections or other limited access archives, making it virtually impossible to gain access to it without making special arrangements, to scan or OCR-read the text. I suppose bringing a laptop is a solution in the case of text-only materials, but hand-scanning or scanning of photocopied documents (and its amazing how poor-quality some library copiers are) usually results in inferior web files. -- Doug Drew George.Pierson wrote: >Hi, gang, > >Another of my PRR Christmas presents to myself just arrived - a PRR history >by Mike Schaeffer and another fellow whose names escapes me. Cost me $18 >and is worth it. The book has many interesting photos, many in color, and >the printing is excellent. It is a general history of the PRR and from >what I've read so far does a pretty decent job. It seems especially good >on lines west of Pittsburgh, including a brief history of how the PRR >acquired the line and why. There's nothing earth-shaking here but I think >many of you would like it, especially for its introductory character. > >On another note, I've observed the discussion of a cyber chapter and the >talk about too much focus on lines east. There's a deeper issue here and I >speak as one who has done rr research and edits a rr historical society >newsletter. In the case of the PRR the problem is that much of the info we >want was available but only in company documents and many of these reside >in the collections of the folks insightful enough to have acquired this >material when it was more available and affordable. Now here's the rub - >many of these folks are already busy and even if they get well-meaning and >serious inquiries don't have time or funds to respond. Therefore, the real >need as I see it is to get these guys to make copies of their raw data >and/or (better yet) scan it into electronic form so more people can have >access to it. > >Another related issue - there are some public collections, like the Hagley >Museum in Delaware, that have extensive PRR holdings. The catch is that >you usually have to go there to really use the stuff and then be prepared >to slog through a lot of materials you may not need to get to those that >you do. > >In other words, much of what I hear many of us wanting is more access to >basic documentation. Getting the Lewistown archives organized and >accessible will help but again, unless I miss my guess, you'll have to go >there in person when it's opened and figure on spending a few days going >through documents. And Lewistown won't be ready for a while if I read >things right. > >But even if we did this more, there's another thing to keep in mind -- my >seat-of-the-pants sense is that not that many folks out there are on the >Web and computer savvy. Most of us are or we wouldn't be reading this but >you'd be surprised how many folks aren't. In the HS who's newsletter I >edit, out of 180 members, only about 8 have sent in e-mail addresses, and >many of these are in connection with their work, rather than their own home >machines (I'm one such). My point - much as the Web, e-mail, etc. looks so >great to us, not that many people really use it or care to and we need to >keep our perspective on such matters when it comes to availability of info, >maintenance of web sites, etc. I guess this is my way of saying we need to >be patient as groups like the PRR T&HS move into the electronic age, >bearing in mind that electronic improvements may not be that vital to the >vast majority of PRR fans. The best thing we can do in the short run, I >believe, is commit ourselves to taking a couple of days each year to do >basic research and making what we find as widely available as possible. >That's already happening thanks to Jerry and Mark B. and others who keep >scanning more and more into their web sites - let's all head for the >libraries, archives, etc. and add to the info! > >That's more than enough for now - have a joyous Christmas all. > >PRR forever! > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====51505248495651535251===1 Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:22:21 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: END! Content-Length: 678 s.a. mccall wrote: > > I remember you saying there were about 160 or so members of PRR-Talk. > Heck that works out to about 62 cents per member. I would be willing to > pay $1.00/month to keep us up and running.....What do others think????? Count me in. Steve Bartlet ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:35:00 -0500 From: "Bunger, James" Subject: The end? Content-Length: 2359 Greetings, A few thoughts if you please. I have only been a listener (since I have very very little accurate information to provide) on the list for a few months now (well OK, I did chime in once or twice) but I feel that the mailing list and the data on the web site are a WONDERFUL resource and would hate to loose it. The information that some of you have stored in your heads would be enough to give me a headache. While I am still in the getting started stages in terms of accurate modeling, these daily chats have encouraged me to push a little harder to get moving. You also have made me see the importance of doing things the proper historical way and not just buying what the manufacturers provide as 'authentic'. Recalling the recent discussions about a cyber chapter, I think there are over 100 members on each of PRR and Conrail talk. I would be willing to pay my "dues" for a chapter with the proceeds going to support the site. Let me see: 40 people x $30.00/year = $1200 50 people x $25.00/year = $1250 we are in the $3 to $4 per month range here. There might even be a few bucks left over to cover Jerry's power and machine costs! Heck, if EVERYONE signed up, maybe Jerry could get his T1 connection after all. :-) The PRRH&TS dues are in this range and I do get their fine magazine 4 times during the year. But, you guys and gals I hear from every day! Jerry should not be paying for this service out of his pocket. Those who benefit from the list and the information at the site should. Yes, there are many details to work out. A trial period for newcomers, limited or full access to Keystone Crossing to get people interested, affiliation with PRRH&TS and a host of others Let us not let this resource slip away. Now is the time to start the Cyber Chapter. Where do I send my check? Regards to all for a joyous holiday season, James Bunger (an SPF in training) ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 16:54:04 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: RE: More on engines Content-Length: 1009 >> And if (a big if)could a NEW locomotive be built from those plans? say >> if some crazy millionare were to want one built or some scenerio such >> as that...? > Well let's think about this for a second: if we are talking building a brand new locomotive from the rails up, why settle for a T1? Why not do the Big Engine? Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 16:54:09 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: The end of "Keystone Crossings" and "PRR-Talk"? Content-Length: 5000 Jerry writes: >It is with great sorrow that I announce the impending end of "Keystone >Crossings", "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-Talk" and the sites that I host for >free: > >However, I recently had to dismiss one of my Web hosting customers for >lack of payment. And, today, Bob Boyd of "Those Classic Trains" notified >me that he is moving on. Bob sites that my site is often down, something >that I cannot substantiate. He also says he has been unable to FTP HTML >files, something I do on a daily basis from a remote site. Furthermore, >he did not give me the two months notice he had agreed on. > >(On a defensive note, I often receive e-mails about dead links on his >site and the server returning an error. That is solely his fault because >he placed links on his pages for other pages that were not yet in >existence (not yet loaded). Any of the list subscribers that write their >own HTML will attest to this reaction by a server to a request for a >non-existent page.) ===== Hello to Jerry and all on PRR-Talk, First, allow me to say that I am sincerely sorry that I feel I must move "The Limited" from dsop.com. I had hoped to keep it "in the family" which is why I went with a hobby based server rather than my local web service. Second, I sincerely hope that this move does not affect Jerrys other operations: I personally enjoy PRR-Talk and have made many good friends (including Jerry, I hope) thru here. However, as some others have stated to me, there have been some technical problems. For some reason, there are times when I (and I understand, others) cannot get thru to "The Limited", KC or PRR-Talk. Moreover, you may have noticed that there are some problems with getting HTML files to upload: things that won't stay centered, bottoms of files being clipped off, etc. As to where the problem is, no one seems to know. Jerry and I and my local net access server have chased around in circles for a couple of months now, but no one can pin down the problem. If these things could have been resolved, I would have been happy to stick with dsop.com. However, one advantage of going with a local server is that - if need be - I can put the files on disk, drive cross town and load them into their machine by hand. Can't do that in Pennsylvania. As to the matter of dead links: OK, this seems to have been a strategic mistake on my part (I am new at this HTML thing). This is a monster of a site and it keeps getting bigger by the minute - far more so than I had imagined at first. Part of the problem has been the time I have lost trying to handle the FTP upload problems. I have been trying to correct this, first by installing the SITE MAP, and now by a new strategy I am adopting of putting up a title header for the blank pages so that you will know what will be there and some idea of when. The problem with dsop.com (and I think Jerry will agree) is that, for a hobby activity, what he is doing is all fine and good: if KC goes down for a few hours or a few days (for whatever reason) no real harm is done. But for a commercial site like "The Limited" (and dispite the fact that 90% of it is educational, it IS a commercial site) on-line dependability is essential. This is especially true when you consider the interactive features such as Catalog Desk, Help Line, Free Downloads and POLL features that are planned. Regardless of where the problem is, and regardless of what the problem is, there are problems: they can't be fixed: so considering how essential "The Limited" is to the image and communications of Those Classic Trains, I really don't have a choice. So: at this time, the plan is to move "The Limited" to my local server by the end of January. I honestly wish this had not been necessary. Anyway: a distasteful matter all round. I see by some of the responses to Jerrys post that there are options for him to consider: I hope that he can work out alternate arrangements to reduce his costs- a critical problem for any tiny home business like dsop.com (BTW: my site costs will nearly double, so it is not a one way street). My best wishes to all for the Holiday season, and to all- including you, Jerry- my hopes for a productive and positive KC and PRR-Talk in the new year. Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 16:56:23 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: END! Content-Length: 1404 >At 01:48 PM 12/22/97 -0400, you wrote: >>It is with great sorrow that I announce the impending end of "Keystone >>Crossings", "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-Talk" and the sites that I host for >>free: the Northern Central Chapter of the PRRT&HS and the Keystone Model >>Railroad Historical Society. >> >Greetings, > > I remember you saying there were about 160 or so members of PRR-Talk. >Heck that works out to about 62 cents per member. I would be willing to >pay $1.00/month to keep us up and running.....What do others think????? >Sincerely, > >S.A. McCall HOSAM >Franklin, Va. ===== Certainly, as a private PRR-Talk subscriber, I would have no problem with this at all. Only how does one collect on that? Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 19:20:44 EST Subject: Re: Modeling survey... Content-Length: 1518 In a message dated 97-12-21 21:34:35 EST, liberty@infonline.net writes: << Anyhow, what I would like to know is: 1. What motive power would you like to see, and in what scale? HO T6 DS4-4-660 DS4-4-750 VO1000 DS4-4-1000 RSD12 RSD15 RSD7 RT624 DR12-8-30 T2500 ERIE BUILTS A & B DR4-4-1500 A& B RF15 A& B CF16-4 2. What cars would you like/scale? HO F22 F30A F30D F30E F41 F41B FGR FGRA FM G22 G25 G27 G28 G29 G29A G29B G30 G31 G31A G31B G31C G31D G31E G31F G31K G32 G32A G34 G35 G36E G36F G38 G38A G38B G39 G39A GR GRA GS GSH GLA GLC GLCA H25 H35 H36 H37 H37A H47 H49 H50 K8 K9 K9A K9B K10 K11 K12 X25 X26A X26C X28A X33 X33A X37 X37A X37B X38 X38A X41 X41A X41B X41C X41E X44 X44A X44B X45 X46 X46A X47 X47A R50B 3. What MOW equip./scale? 4. What buildings/scale? HO FEDERAL STREET STATION FEDERAL TOWER 5. What signals or controlling devices/scale? YARD DWARFS HO 2, 3, AND 4 TRACK SIGNAL BRIDGES TO SCALE 6. Any suggestions outside the above? TRACK PANS Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 19:20:53 EST Subject: Re: The end of "Keystone Crossings" and "PRR-Talk"? Content-Length: 1001 Jerry: I don't want to see you drop the service. But I do think you are pay far too much for the service. I am president of a non-profit organization with its own website. We pay DegiWeb $20 per month plus $50 annual fee for our own domain which is maintained on their server. For the $20 we currently have over 200 total pages on the site and are at about 30% of capacity. We have T1 access are are averaging 1900 hits a day. We have had about 6 hours of down time during the past year. Granted we may be getting a reduced rate as a non- profit but it isn't an 80% discount. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 20:09:07 -0500 From: Charles Ring Subject: Re: More on engines Content-Length: 980 Robert A. Boyd wrote: > > >> And if (a big if)could a NEW locomotive be built from those plans? say > >> if some crazy millionare were to want one built or some scenerio such > >> as that...? > > > Well let's think about this for a second: if we are talking building a > brand new locomotive from the rails up, why settle for a T1? Why not do > the Big Engine? What is the Big Engine? I've read and seen pictures of new American-style road-size steamers being built in China only some ten years ago... I wonder if the capacity to build them still exists there? ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 20:22:30 EST Subject: Re: END! Content-Length: 806 In a message dated 97-12-22 19:22:44 EST, sbartlet@capecod.net writes: << s.a. mccall wrote: > > I remember you saying there were about 160 or so members of PRR-Talk. > Heck that works out to about 62 cents per member. I would be willing to > pay $1.00/month to keep us up and running.....What do others think????? Count me in. Steve Bartlet >> Count me in also. George Eichhorn ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stephen Bernas Subject: RE: The end of "Keystone Crossings" and "PRR-Talk"? Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 20:24:09 -0500 Content-Length: 3060 Hello, I'm a recent subscriber to PRR Talk and would be devastated to see it go away for lack of a server. I currently pay about $15 a month for my dial-up account but I know that the price goes down to about $8 a month for a 10 year contract. To get an account with CGI access would cost $75 a year in addition to the dial-up cost. I would have to talk to my ISP to get information pertaining to setting up a listserve. I would be willing to provide the administration of the site and the listserve to keep it around. Stephen Bernas Bernass1@erols.com -----Original Message----- From: Rob Schoenberg [SMTP:robs@protocol.zycad.com] Sent: Monday December 22 1997 2:30 PM To: Jerry Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: The end of "Keystone Crossings" and "PRR-Talk"? Jerry, For just hosting a web page, why do you feel the need to host it on your own machine & have your own domain? I currenly pay $25 a month for my dialup PPP connection. With that I get web space & cgi access on his server. My ISP says that there is no quota on disk space but my site isn't all that huge yet anyway. I'm sure other isp's offer similar pricing. Going this route might preclude having huge pdf files but there's no reason to have to drop the site entirely. I don't get my own domain and don't have control over the server (then again I don't have to worry about it either) but I spend $900 a year less than you! And my site gets T1 access to the net too. While I hope you don't, if you must get out of the hosting business, I am pretty sure that my ISP will allow me to host the mailing lists on his machine. I'd rather not have to handle the administration but I'm formally extending the offer if it's the only way to keep the lists alive. Also, While I admire your trying to host sites and use the profit to get a higher speed line, I have a feeling that most businesses won't be terrible satisfied with having their site accessed at 33 Kbaud. You have a chicken and the egg type problem here: without hosting you can't afford a faster line, and with out a faster line, you'll probably have a hard time attracting site hosting customers. Just some thoughts, Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stephen Bernas Subject: RE: 1940's PRR Rolling Stock Resources Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 20:29:44 -0500 Content-Length: 2126 Andy, One of the sources that I have is the book "The Pennsylvania Railroad: A Pictorial History" by E. P. Alexander published in 1947! While it doesn't list specifically the freight and passenger car rosters it does list the motive power (both Steam and Electric) of the PRR as of July 1947. While it doesn't list specific engine numbers it is broken down by class and lists the numbers of each class present at the time. If you don't already have the list, I can sent it to you. And yes you can still get the book. I say it at a recent train memorabilia show for $30. That one even had the dust jacket. Stephen Bernas Bernass1@erols.com -----Original Message----- From: Norton WRC [SMTP:NortonWRC@aol.com] Sent: Monday December 15 1997 12:47 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: 1940's PRR Rolling Stock Resources I am modelling the PRR during the 1940's, specifically the electrified lines. Has someone published a book that has information/pictures of the various passenger and freight rolling stock used during that time period? Since I wasn't around in the '40's, I need a guide as to what rolling stock and paint schemes were used so I can figure out what models should appear on my railroad. Are there such resources and which is the best? Thanks, Andy Norton ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 20:37:54 -0500 (EST) From: Rick Nelson Subject: FoM Content-Length: 702 Ok, so I'm stupid.....what does FoM mean? Also, I just got an AB set of E7's....what color would the trainphone antenna be? To Jerry, you do a great job, I also understand the money problems...I'll send in my $12 and another $12 for a kid that can't pay jsut say were. Rick Nelson Luke 4:4 ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 20:43:33 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: PRR Talk Content-Length: 571 Hi all... I for one would be happy to help out with what S.A.McCall suggested... Hope we all can do something.. H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stephen Bernas Subject: Modeling survey Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 20:57:45 -0500 Content-Length: 1116 Hello, I have a suggestion for one engine I have never seen modeled in the PRR steam turbine S2 in HO. I have had a desire to scratch build one for some time now but haven't really had the space. To date I have seen 2 pictures. One of the left side and one of the right. I have the picture of the left and the picture of the right is somewhere one someone's PRR site. I'm going to try and track it down tomorrow (I could kick myself now for flushing my browser's cache after I was finished surfing). I would also like to see a model of the PRR station in Pittsburgh and New York. Again these are projects that I am going to attempt myself (eventually). Stephen Bernas Bernass1@erols.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stephen Bernas Subject: RE: Steam loco details Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 20:58:24 -0500 Content-Length: 2038 Roger, The S2 had 68" diameter drivers. Don't know the diameter of the 6 lead wheels or the 6 trailing wheels. I found a picture of her on the net today. Not sure where. I have to track it down tomorrow. It is a right side shot. I have a left side shot in a book at home. If you need the picture let me know. Hope this helps. I've been thinking on making one myself in HO. Any ideas or help you could provide on making one of these rare engines would be greatly appreciated. Stephen Bernas Bernass1@erols.com -----Original Message----- From: Roger Elliott [SMTP:relliott@mail.telis.org] Sent: Sunday December 21 1997 10:47 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Steam loco details Hello and Merry Christmas! I have a few questions for anyone in the know out there..... What was the wheel diameter on the Steam Turbine S-2? And what was the wheel diameter on the L1s? I am considering trying a kit bash in N-scale to make an S-2 loco. I have a Bachman 4-8-4 in N but the HO version has much larger drivers than my HO S-2. Any ideas? Also, what years were the SW9/1200s made? I am modeling up to the year 1952 and I am considering Lifelike's SW9/1200. Thanks, Roger Elliott ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 21:04:10 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: END! Content-Length: 1268 s.a. mccall wrote: > > At 01:48 PM 12/22/97 -0400, you wrote: > >It is with great sorrow that I announce the impending end of > "Keystone > >Crossings", "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-Talk" and the sites that I host for > >free: the Northern Central Chapter of the PRRT&HS and the Keystone > Model > >Railroad Historical Society. > > > Greetings, > > I remember you saying there were about 160 or so members of > PRR-Talk. > Heck that works out to about 62 cents per member. I would be willing > to > pay $1.00/month to keep us up and running.....What do others > think????? > Sincerely, > > S.A. McCall HOSAM > Franklin, Va. > I would gladly pay $20.00 per year -- or more -- in advance! I would consider it in my own best interest and not charity. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS/PRRT&HS ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 21:49:34 EST Subject: Re: END! Content-Length: 982 Count me in! I get at least as much fun from this list as from some of the modelling magazines I buy. Also, Jerry has been kind enough to scan in and publish some documents so I haven't had to set up my own web page. John Keel In a message dated 97-12-22 17:09:16 EST, hosam@gc.net writes: << I remember you saying there were about 160 or so members of PRR-Talk. Heck that works out to about 62 cents per member. I would be willing to pay $1.00/month to keep us up and running.....What do others think????? Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. >> ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:23:38 -0500 Subject: Re: The end of "Keystone Crossings" and "PRR-Talk"? From: carl-vic-vogel@juno.com (Carl K Vogel) Content-Length: 1020 Jerry: I think $5 to $10 from each of us could keep you going for awhile. If done yearly as voluntary dues, most people would understand. If you pay for something, you usually appreciate it more. Thanks, Carl K.Vogel Recently Reinstated Chief Engineer Taunton & Tuckerton Railway On Mon, 22 Dec 97 13:48:43 -0400 Jerry writes: >It is with great sorrow that I announce the impending end of "Keystone > >Crossings", "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-Talk" and the sites that I host for >free: the Northern Central Chapter of the PRRT&HS and the Keystone >Model >Railroad Historical Society. > ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Leary" Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 03:24:17 +0000 Subject: Re: The end? Content-Length: 1902 > Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:35:00 -0500 > From: "Bunger, James" > Subject: The end? > To: "'PRR'" James recently authored in part: > Greetings, > ... > Recalling the recent discussions about a cyber chapter, I think there > are over 100 members on each of PRR and Conrail talk. I would be > willing to pay my "dues" for a chapter with the proceeds going to > support the site. > > Let me see: > 40 people x $30.00/year = $1200 > 50 people x $25.00/year = $1250 > > we are in the $3 to $4 per month range here. There might even be a few > bucks left over to cover Jerry's power and machine costs! Heck, if > EVERYONE signed up, maybe Jerry could get his T1 connection after all. > :-) > > The PRRH&TS dues are in this range and I do get their fine magazine 4 > times during the year. But, you guys and gals I hear from every day! > Jerry should not be paying for this service out of his pocket. Those > who benefit from the list and the information at the site should. > > > Let us not let this resource slip away. Now is the time to start the > Cyber Chapter. > > Where do I send my check? > > Regards to all for a joyous holiday season, > > > James Bunger (an SPF in training) > > YES, I TOO WOULD BE WILLING TO PAY DUES TO KEEP PRR-TALK AND KEYSTONE CROSSINGS AND OTHER RELEVANT SITES GOING. THANKS! Sincerely, Greg Leary (electronically signed) ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 06:03:44 +0000 Subject: Some more questions From: locoshop@juno.com (Jeremy C Helms) Content-Length: 2440 Hello all, I hope everyone is not getting tired of me yet asking all these questions. I have some more questions about the PRR and their practices. Some of these are repeats and I apologize, I deleted them awhile ago by mistake before printing them out. Thanks for ALL your help and I would be more than willing to pay $12-$25 to keep this going myself because it is an invaluable tool for those of us who cannot seem to get all the facts or do not know them. I feel KC and PRR-Talk are promoting the PRR to those of us who are younger and do not even remember the grand Pennsy. Sorry, here's the questions. 1. When period did PRR use the Circle Keystone on their freight cars? (when did it start and end) 2. When did PRR begin to use the trainphone system? (I do NOT have access to the web at this point in time and cannot go to KC to find this info out) 3. What kinds of paint schemes are correct on the Red Caboose X29s if I were to model 1950-1954? or 1940-1945? Are there any different schemes between these 2 dates? RC has done or will do Circle Keystone, Shadow Keystone, Merchandise Service, PRR/REA, and "Buy War Bonds." 4. Can anyone give me a copy of the freight car list for 1944 that Mr. Orr placed on the email group? (another inadvertently deleted item) 5. What locomotives are good for the periods of 1950-1954? or 1940-1945? Or where can I find this information that is complete. 6. We are looking to get a house that has a good 10x12 room with a 9 foot high ceiling that a layout (YYEESS!!) will go into. I am soliciting ideas from any and all who would offer their suggestions and what they would do if they had that space available. These are solicited and the only thing I would like is some type of locomotive shops (Walthers) and possibly engine terminal like roundhouse and turntable. Include your suggestion for time period and why. I figure this should be a fun post to get some ideas from the group. Thanks for all answers and time. Jeremy Helms ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roger P. Hensley" Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:19:06 +0000 Subject: Re: END! Content-Length: 2359 > Jerry writes: > > >It is with great sorrow that I announce the impending end of > >"Keystone Crossings", "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-Talk" and the sites that > >I host for free: And on the PRR-Talk list s.a. mccall wrote: > > I remember you saying there were about 160 or so members of PRR-Talk. > > Heck that works out to about 62 cents per member. I would be willing to > > pay $1.00/month to keep us up and running.....What do others think????? and sbartlet@capecod.net wrote: > Count me in. I feel that I must point out that I host two seperate web sites on two different accounts out of my own pocket. It is what I choose to do and how much it costs me is of little concern to any of you. However, when people begin to talk about subscriptions to a discussion list, that does concern me. I can see how many of you might be willing to give a buck a month to keep these lists operating. That would be your choice. I don't feel that I am willing to do that. As has already been pointed out, Keystone Crossing is not up consistently and it is a slow site as well. Both the PRR-Talk list and the Conrail-Talk list have been erratic at times, but then, so are a lot of non-commercial sites. So, with all of this in mind and adding the fact that I really have little to offer either list, I will unsubscribe from both later today. This will bring me back to my original list subscriptions of the Model RR List and the Railroad List. Both are general enough that I feel that I have something to contribute from time to time. Jerry, thanks for the ride. It has been interesting. Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org Information Systems Specialist - Ball State University - Muncie, IN === http://bsuvc.bsu.edu/~00rphensley/cidwelco.html ================ === The Railroads of Madison County, Indiana ======================= ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963 Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 05:36:52 EST Subject: PRR Talk Subscription Content-Length: 533 $1 per month or an annual subscription of $12, What a bargain! Where do I mail the check? Harold Lines South (The Florida Trains) ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: The end of "Keystone Crossings" and "PRR-Talk"? Date: Tue, 23 Dec 97 07:10:24 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1474 On 12/22/97 9:24 PM, Stephen Bernas (bernass1@erols.com) wrote: > I'm a recent subscriber to PRR Talk and would be devastated to see it go >away >for lack of a server. I currently pay about $15 a month for my dial-up >account >but I know that the price goes down to about $8 a month for a 10 year >contract. >To get an account with CGI access would cost $75 a year in addition to the >dial-up cost. I would have to talk to my ISP to get information pertaining >to >setting up a listserve. I would be willing to provide the administration >of the >site and the listserve to keep it around. Not that simple. A dial up account gets assigned a random IP address every time you call in. In order to be a listserv, you need a dedicated IP account, so the number remains constant. Call your ISP and find out what that will cost you!!!! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: A Solution? (LONG) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 97 09:00:51 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 6620 Over the past 12 hours, there have been numerous posts to the list and to me direct about the possibility of "subscription fees" for continuing the operation of "PRR-Talk". I thank the many of you who have responded so supportively and graciously. To be honest, I never thought of doing the math to see what it worked out to per capita. It is amazing that it would be less than $1 per month -- a fee anyone could (should) afford. Please allow me to address this possibility. It would only be appropriate that such support be tendered via the prospective "cyber chapter". Whether or not this chapter ever attains official chaptership, we could at least operate as a cyber group in support of PRR modeling. Modeling seems to be the main interest of the cyber proposal, followed closely by more support for Lines West. My suggestion would be to form a "club" now, in a format that is conducive to migrating to a PRRT&HS chapter later. We should elect a "board" to monitor goings-on as the club develops. I should NOT be on the board due to potential "conflict of interest". (Please read on.) My ISP costs are (more exactly) $95 per month. $15 is a dedicated telephone line and $80 is a dedicated IP connection with my ISP. It is an X2 modem connection, so graphics max out at 52Kish; compressed text (HTML) passes through significantly faster...over 200K. Given that this is only a modem connection, I personally have been pleased with the throughput. I have sought to host web sites ($20 per month for 50MB) to offset my costs. I now have only one client, leaving $75 not covered. Being a firm believer that I otherwise would have a $20 per month account, that leaves $55 per month not covered. That is my current deficit. "Members" of the "club" could pay dues to the club (not me), then the club could pay a monthly fee not to exceed $55 per month. This amount would be decreased by any web hosting fees/sponsorship fees that are secured, so the actual expense to the club would be even less. However, the club's contract would guarantee continued and uninterrupted operation. One of the board members would handle the funds, receiving annual dues from members and paying the monthly fees to me, as appropriate. The club would have a password secured web site. It would have to be determined how "PRR-Talk" would be handled. Would it remain free to the public as a teaser to join the club? The footer message could point to the web site. There would also be a sponsorship link from "Keystone Crossings" to the club's site. You comments? RELATED: Many have asked why I pay this much for an ISP account. Why not have a $20 dial up account? The answer is that a $20 dial up account receives a random IP address every time a connection is made. Web, FTP, Mail, and Listservers must have a "dedicated IP address", meaning that it remains constant all the time. ISP's charge much more for this type of service. In addition, a modem, port, and line is dedicated at their end for me to dial into. Never a busy signal; it's my line! The next question is, why not then place all the files on the ISP's system? First, most ISP's limit you to 20MB or 50MB of disk space for your $20/month fee. "KC" is already over 200MB. This would cost a fortune in extra fees! Second, most ISP's don't offer listserving. If they do, they charge per message. This is like writing a blank check! We have 165 subscribers and over 30 posts a day. That's 4,950 messages! I have my own hardware with gigabytes of storage space. I can load whatever software (CGI's, etc.) I want. I run DAT backups nightly, so my maximum data loss in the event of a drive crash is 24 hours. (I didn't have this last spring!) I rotate tapes weekly and keep one in my car. If the house burned down, the maximum data loss would be 7 days. I have a UPS (Uninterruptable Power Supply) so my server stays up when the power goes out...preventing harmful improper shutdowns. Since this is all in my home office, I am readily available to work on/support the server. As for increasing performance, there are two ways to do this. I had hoped to do both eventually. One is to increase bandwidth. Under the current situtation, this will become a secondary priority. Increasing to ISDN requires either 1) an ISDN router for $1,200, or 2) an ISDN modem ($300). Installation and changeover costs are around $250. Monthly phone bill increases to $200/month. ISP bill actually decreases to $40 per month. Second area for improvement is to separate services onto different machines. Right now I've got five pieces of software running to make it all work. The first is router/gateway/firewall software. This interacts with the modem. Ideally, this would be on its own machine, but it requires a PowerPC processor, but very little memory or disk space, and no monitor or keyboard. Unfortunately, even a used one runs around $500. When moved to a dedicated machine, the DNS (Domain Name Service) server would also run on this machine. Supposedly, this setup instantly improves performance by 20%. The listserver software should also be on its own machine. However, it does not require the PowerPC chip and can be placed on a machine of its own for around $80. The FTP/Web server and the Mail server could remain on the same machine. The mail server sees very little activity and is not a load. If the club is willing to guarantee $55 a month for ISP service, I will commit to getting a machine dedicated to the listserver ($80) immediately. I will also commit to getting a dedicated machine for the router ($500) within six months. These will boost throughput substantially. I'd love to see all this happen, and I am grateful for your adamant interest in seeing things continue. What are your thoughts given my comments? PLEASE DO NOT COPY THIS ENTIRE MESSAGE INTO YOUR REPLY AS THE LISTSERVER WILL "CHOKE"! --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:02:05 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Cab Numberboards Content-Length: 1647 Eichhorn wrote: > > Hi Gang, > > Does anyone know if any of the "Later > Varient" cab unit numberboards are > available as an aftermarket product? The > ones to which I refer are those that are > shaped similar to automobile license plates > and appear to be attached by four bolts or > some sort of stand-off stanchion device. George, Overland had this type number board on their O scale PRR E-7 diesels. Probably would have done the same if they did the engine in HO. You MIGHT be able to get parts from Overland, but would have to try a letter or phone call. I know in years past Tom Marsh has been very helpful with replacement and modified parts. Another wild-guess suggestion would be Bowser. They are really into PRR detail parts. I'm no in HO so I don't have any specifics, just ideas. > Also, as a part two.... Were these boards > painted the same color as the diesel body > color or were they totally black with only the > numbering in white? Any help would be > greatly appreciated. > Looking in a couple of volumes of _Pennsy Diesel Years_, pictures of EP-20 (EMD E-7), and BP-20 (Baldwin Sharks) show the external number boards to be the same color as the carbodies. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Dec 97 9:58:37 EST From: Subject: Re: N6 cabin cars Content-Length: 2315 If they are wood then what kind of wood is it. They seem to be smooth like some kind of plywood laminate, but I doubt they were using plywood at that time (or were they?) The roofs look to smooth too be individual strips of tongue and groove planking. Please help me on this one. Thanks. ------------- Original Text From: "Bruce F. Smith" , on 12/22/97 3:37 PM: >Happy Holidays every one, > >I have a question regarding N6 cabin cars. Can anyone describe what the >roof of these cars was made from? ie, was it tar covered sheet metal, tar >covered fabric (like canvas), plain old sheet metal painted black? Any >help would be greatly appreciated. They appear to be wood, covered with "roofing cement (and most likely canvas) The color was painted freight car red originally, however, soot and weather often turned them black. Later on, roofs were left unpainted (black) >Different topic -- Is it safe to assume that the running boards atop >freight cars were made from wood? And as such would be greatly prone to >weathering to a gray tone much more quickly than the rest of the car? No, as early as 1938 (and probably earlier) running boards on many new cars were steel. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology Scientist, Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________________\|_|____________________________________ | | O--O \0 0 0/ \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 97 09:13:13 CST Subject: Re: END! Content-Length: 1284 On Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:46:49 -0500, s.a. mccall wrote: >At 01:48 PM 12/22/97 -0400, you wrote: >>It is with great sorrow that I announce the impending end of "Keystone >>Crossings", "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-Talk" and the sites that I host for >>free: the Northern Central Chapter of the PRRT&HS and the Keystone Model >>Railroad Historical Society. >> >Greetings, > > I remember you saying there were about 160 or so members of PRR-Talk. >Heck that works out to about 62 cents per member. I would be willing to >pay $1.00/month to keep us up and running.....What do others think????? >Sincerely, > >S.A. McCall HOSAM >Franklin, Va. I for one will chip as per the above suggestion to help keep PRR Talk up and running.... PRR (Talk) forever!!?? Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Some more questions Date: Tue, 23 Dec 97 11:38:14 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1694 On 12/23/97 2:03 AM, Jeremy C Helms (locoshop@juno.com) wrote: >6. We are looking to get a house that has a good 10x12 room with a 9 >foot high ceiling that a layout (YYEESS!!) will go into. I am soliciting >ideas from any and all who would offer their suggestions and what they >would do if they had that space available. These are solicited and the >only thing I would like is some type of locomotive shops (Walthers) and >possibly engine terminal like roundhouse and turntable. Include your >suggestion for time period and why. I figure this should be a fun post >to get some ideas from the group. Your 10x12 room is very close to the "standard" size of 11x11-6 (I think) that Model Railroader's annual "Model Railroad Planning" usually features four plans for. I've got the last three issues and there are some neat designs for this space that likely could be adapted to your tastes. The new issue is due out in February/March. Several questions: What is your scale? Do you want to model a prototypical area, or just provide for operations in a fictional, yet PRR setting? --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: The end of "Keystone Crossings" and "PRR-Talk"? Date: Tue, 23 Dec 97 11:50:15 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 2398 On 12/23/97 12:33 PM, Rob Schoenberg (robs@protocol.zycad.com) wrote: >I'm not quite sure I understand you here, I'm wouldn't be running the >listserver, >my ISP already runs one. He has the dedicated server and all the joys of >running it. The >lists would just be processed through his program. All I'd have to do is >deal with the subscription list... Why would I (or Steve) need a static IP >for that? (BTW I checked my ISP and it's only $10 a month...) Yes, if the ISP is running the listserv, you wouldn't need a static IP. As for administration, have you ever done this? "PRR-Talk" requires about 30 minutes per day of upkeep...15 in the morning and 15 in the evening. People move and don't subscribe...generating bounces; people don't check their mail often and their mailbox gets full and generates bounces; etc. As for $10 per month, that surprises me, or is it a flat fee for the service PLUS a charge per 1K messages? "PRR-Talk" currently generates over 4,000 messages per day (165 subscribers X 30 posts). > >I'd hate for PRR-talk to become a pay service. (Even at a few dollars a >year) >It's not that I'd mind paying but I think it would shut out newcomers and >people >with only a minor interest in the group. Also it shouldn't be necessary. I made a long post earlier that hasn't gotten through yet. Maybe the proposed cyber chapter would provide the list free to the public as a teaser for its private web site which contains electronic data not found anywhere else. >So far, Dennis, Steve, and me have all volunteered to host it for free. I'm >sure there are other options out there also. As the founder of the list, I take pride in its accomplishment. I'd certainly like to keep control of it. However, if all else fails... --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: modeling survey Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:17:57 -0600 Content-Length: 1913 Further to my previous response, I listed a desire for an X40 60 foot merchandise box: to be precise, it is an X40b. Further to S. A. McCall's request for a VO1000, Stewart is tooling now--probably a year off, but considering the quality of their mechanisms, I expect it to be a beaut. Re the K4 3768, a shell for this one-of-a-kind Broadway locomotive might be nice, but I don't know how many would sell, since to my knowledge it did not make it through WWII with shrouding intact and it begs the requirement for Fleet of Modernism cars to trail behind, although I know it was used in general service, too. If you are going to do a streamlined shell, perhaps the 3678 and three sisters for Jeffersonian or South Wind would be better, since I understand at least one made it to 1950 with shroud and they were used in other applications as well (the famous photo of one pulling a mail and express through Casey, Illinois in 1942 comes to mind). I have a brass version, but it doesn't pull well, so a metal shell on a Bowser mechanism would be useful and it would help in double heading with a conventional Bowser K4. Two of them doubleheaded with the drop-in Helix humper can motors would work great. I also agree with S. A. McCall's request for a 50 foot merchandise box car as well (300 of these versus only 100 of the X40b) and the BP-20 (DRS6-4-20), although I am awaiting the results of the recent offering of the latter -- delivered yet? Regards and happy holidays to all. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: The end of "Keystone Crossings" and "PRR-Talk"? Date: Tue, 23 Dec 97 11:33:11 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 2337 I said: >While I hope you don't, if you must get out of the hosting business, I am >pretty sure >that my ISP will allow me to host the mailing lists on his machine. I'd rather not >have to handle the administration but I'm formally extending the offer if it's the only >way to keep the lists alive. To which Jerry responded (off list I think): >Most ISP's will not allow running a listserv on their machine due to the >heavy load and upkeep. If they do, I know they'll charge more. So I sent an e-mail to my ISP and he said: >From: The Internet Nexus WWW Master >To: Rob Schoenberg >Subject: Re: Question about mailing lists... > >No costs, if its a non-profit mailing list. > >Let me know what the name of the list is, and if you want me to include >any info text when people subscribe to it. Jerry also responded to Steve B with: >Not that simple. A dial up account gets assigned a random IP address >every time you call in. In order to be a listserv, you need a dedicated >IP account, so the number remains constant. Call your ISP and find out >what that will cost you!!!! I'm not quite sure I understand you here, I'm wouldn't be running the listserver, my ISP already runs one. He has the dedicated server and all the joys of running it. The lists would just be processed through his program. All I'd have to do is deal with the subscription list... Why would I (or Steve) need a static IP for that? (BTW I checked my ISP and it's only $10 a month...) I'd hate for PRR-talk to become a pay service. (Even at a few dollars a year) It's not that I'd mind paying but I think it would shut out newcomers and people with only a minor interest in the group. Also it shouldn't be necessary. So far, Dennis, Steve, and me have all volunteered to host it for free. I'm sure there are other options out there also. Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 23 Dec 97 11:37:38 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: Signals and survey Content-Length: 5545 --====51565157554849525554===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" At the risk of being flamed for my utter stupidity, what's the story with the IHC PRR signals/signal bridges? I've never actually seen them, except as a small shot in advertisements. Are the signal heads oversized? Are the bridges themselves OK, even if the signal heads themselves are not? What about the Bachmann two-track signal bridge, this is also PRR prototype (even if the signals are color-light versions), correct? Would it be correct to kitbash the Bachmann version into a four-track bridge? I don't really feel like scratchbuilding a bunch of signal bridges, or buying bra$$ ones, if an acceptable, if not perfect, plastic model replica is available... it will go along with the rest of my acceptable, if not PRRfect, models. locoshop wrote: >Hello all, > >On the signal question, I see that we keep bringing up the "oversized" NJ >signals, and no others are mentioned as being available. I believe we >are overlooking some of the best signals on the market--Oregon Rail >Supply. These signals look great and you can get a diode logic board to >help them run correctly. Through ORS you can even buy the detection kits >for them. These signals, in my mind, look the best all around--hence the >reason that they are sometimes hard to get. > >On the survey, I myself would even love to see a GOOD "shark-nose" >diesel and I would love Centipedes (now I am dreaming okay) cause I could >NOT afford the $1300 price on the pair of Overlands recently. I would >also love to see an PRR interlocking tower like ALTO in Altoona:-). Of >course all of the preceding are in HO scale. > >Jeremy Helms > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help >save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====51565157554849525554===1 Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:38:22 -0500 From: Jim Hebner Subject: GP9B conversion kits Content-Length: 668 I was able to trash my old e-mails yesterday - with great care and stuipidity. A few weeks ago the was a message about a new conversion kit for the P2K GP9 Could someone post that or e-mail me that again please Thanks Jim Hebner hebnerj@clark.cc.oh.us ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 23 Dec 97 11:42:13 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: FoM Content-Length: 5032 --====57485156505349505152===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" No, Rick, you're not stupid. These kind of questions will keep coming up again and again, as the Pennsy recedes further and further into history -- FoM is e-mail 'shorthand' for Fleet of Modernism. This is what PRR called its first fleet of streamlined passenger trains. Lately on this list, it is a reference to a paint scheme. The FoM cars were painted two shades of tuscan, a lighter shade on most of the car body and roof, and a darker band on the windows. Where the colors met was lined with gold dulux, I think. The band did not go to the ends of the cars to make a continuous band the length of the train, instead, it was rounded at the ends of the windows, but before the doors. There were also four or five pinstripes below the window panel, I believe also in gold dulux. Some of these FoM cars were fluted stainless steel, with the two shades of tuscan paint over the stainless -- strange! Any PRR passenger train experts (attention: Bob Boyd), please correct any misstatements above... -- Doug (often wrong, but never in doubt) Drew Rick Nelson wrote: >Ok, so I'm stupid.....what does FoM mean? > >Also, I just got an AB set of E7's....what color would the trainphone >antenna be? > > >To Jerry, you do a great job, I also understand the money problems...I'll >send in my $12 and another $12 for a kid that can't pay jsut say were. > >Rick Nelson >Luke 4:4 > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help >save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====57485156505349505152===1 Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 19:37:37 +0000 Subject: Re: Some more questions From: locoshop@juno.com (Jeremy C Helms) Content-Length: 2126 On Tue, 23 Dec 97 11:38:14 -0400 Jerry_Britton writes: >On 12/23/97 2:03 AM, Jeremy C Helms (locoshop@juno.com) wrote: > >>6. We are looking to get a house that has a good 10x12 room with a 9 >>foot high ceiling that a layout (YYEESS!!) will go into. I am >soliciting >>ideas from any and all who would offer their suggestions and what >they >>would do if they had that space available. These are solicited and >the >>only thing I would like is some type of locomotive shops (Walthers) >and >>possibly engine terminal like roundhouse and turntable. Include your >>suggestion for time period and why. I figure this should be a fun >post >>to get some ideas from the group. > >Your 10x12 room is very close to the "standard" size of 11x11-6 (I >think) >that Model Railroader's annual "Model Railroad Planning" usually >features >four plans for. I've got the last three issues and there are some neat > >designs for this space that likely could be adapted to your tastes. >The >new issue is due out in February/March. > >Several questions: What is your scale? Do you want to model a >prototypical area, or just provide for operations in a fictional, yet >PRR >setting? To Jerry and all, I have seen those issues and love them every year (to bad they were not every month). I really like the V&O one in the 1996 issue. My scale is HO and am looking for something to give the flavor of PRR and its area without the "broad way" (four tracks I mean). Looking for decent operations but more with a focus on locomotive shops (I have LOTS of engines) and a roundhouse (kind of like Altoona). Hope this helps give some more ideas. Jeremy Helms Phil. 4:8 ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Jim Hudson" Subject: Re: Some more questions Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 21:01:22 -0000 Content-Length: 1032 Jeremy, keep the questions coming... That's why we're here. According to Edwin Alexander's history, "...first installed on certain locomotives and cabin cars and block stations on the Belvidere-Delaware Branch in June 1942..." Hope that helps! Jim wjhudson@erols.com -----Original Message----- From: Jeremy C Helms To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Tuesday, December 23, 1997 4:09 PM Subject: Some more questions >2. When did PRR begin to use the trainphone system? (I do NOT have >access to the web at this point in time and cannot go to KC to find this >info out) ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Jim Hudson" Subject: Re: A Solution? (LONG) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 21:29:00 -0000 Content-Length: 2182 Jerry, I certainly would be willing to contribute my share. PRR-Talk, especially, is a useful resource since it is something with which most of us interact DAILY. How many other publications or organizations provide daily information? Fifteen to twenty dollars a year is a bargain! Just tell me where to send the check. I agree the KC could be a password-protected site. About what to do with PRR-Talk, my two-cents would be to keep it public for two reasons -- first, it would act as a teaser to join KC. Second, it would increase the knowledge base of the list. Even if some freeloader subscribed to the list and not KC, he would hopefully be providing useful information to the Pennsy Internet community. KC's got a lot of info and should be able to stand by itself -- personally, my favorites are the Adobe Acrobat format documents. Not all of us have access to our own copy of Pennsy original documents, but through the magic of the net, voila! Perhaps the footers could change occasionally to highlight new additions to KC... Jim wjhudson@erols.com -----Original Message----- From: Jerry_Britton To: PRR-Talk Date: Tuesday, December 23, 1997 4:57 PM Subject: A Solution? (LONG) >Over the past 12 hours, there have been numerous posts to the list and to >me direct about the possibility of "subscription fees" for continuing the >operation of "PRR-Talk". I thank the many of you who have responded so >supportively and graciously. To be honest, I never thought of doing the >math to see what it worked out to per capita. It is amazing that it would >be less than $1 per month -- a fee anyone could (should) afford. Please >allow me to address this possibility. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:58:00 -0500 From: "Bunger, James" Subject: Re: More on Chinese engines Content-Length: 1887 There were three made in China late 80's or early 90's. One went to the Valley Railroad in Essex CT, one was to go to Delaware Ostego in New York State and I do not recall the other owner. Unfortunatly, the one bound for DO was aboard a freighter that sank. Essex finally sold theirs to DO. I think there was a write up in Trains back then..... Regards, James Bunger ---------- From: Charles Ring To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: More on engines Date: Monday, December 22, 1997 8:09PM Robert A. Boyd wrote: > > >> And if (a big if)could a NEW locomotive be built from those plans? say > >> if some crazy millionare were to want one built or some scenerio such > >> as that...? > > > Well let's think about this for a second: if we are talking building a > brand new locomotive from the rails up, why settle for a T1? Why not do > the Big Engine? What is the Big Engine? I've read and seen pictures of new American-style road-size steamers being built in China only some ten years ago... I wonder if the capacity to build them still exists there? ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: VIDEO: Pennsy Steam & Electric Years Vol. II Date: Tue, 23 Dec 97 18:51:32 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 4024 The folks at BCB Productions/Digital Image Works have a new video out: "Pennsy Steam & Electric Years 1955-1964 Volume II". The jacket reads: "This is a companion video to the Digital Image Works Steam & Electric Years 1936-1952. The steam years begins in the Philadelphia Terminal Division with a look at PRR K4's and Reading G3's at 30th Street Station high stepping PRSL trains to the Jersey shore. Additionally at 30th Street are the odd B1's working the coach yard and a K4 on the West Philadelphia Elevated Branch going to Greenwich yard. Scenes on the PRSL in the South Jersey locations of Wildwood Jct., Tuckahoe Jct. and Ocean City. Watch the E6 pacing shots on the Cape May Branch at 75mph in 1955." "The electric years begin working west on the mainline from Glen Loch to Thorndale and Coatesville, Pa. Views of the last stand of P5 motors as they haul tonnage along side GG1's and the new E44 motors. An intense look at the THORN tower and the traffic over the Philadelphia and Thorndale branch as well as the Trenton Cut-Off at 'DALE' interlocking." "The films presented here were shot by Richard T. Lane, a 20 year employee of the Pennsylvania Railroad. Mr. Lane's work captures the steam era scenes from 1955-1956 and the electric era from 1962-1964. With his assistance, Mr. Lane has given the viewer factually correct, narrative detail rendering this tape a truly great piece of history..." Now my thoughts: Excellent! The earlier DIW videos were mostly black & white, not that clear, and at times "ho hum". This one is awesome! It is all in color, running nearly 50 minutes (even though the case says 45). The pacing shot at 75mph is great. Another thing I really liked was that -- unlike its predecessors -- the narrator identifies each train by symbol, motive power, and road numbers. (The earlier videos just said "eastbound manifest" or something simple.) Included are shots of the "Broadway Limited" and the "Penn Texas". The video is very heavy on passenger traffic. Sorry to the electric fans, but I have decided that P5's are just plain ugly! But you'll see plenty of them in this video. When discussing a few weeks ago whether or not the trainphone was used in the electrified zone, there are two shots of electrics manually picking up orders at THORN. There's also video from inside the THORN tower! Not mentioned on the description but a very pleasant surprise was footage from an excursion that left the main at Parkesburg onto the Columbia Branch. The locomotive takes on water at Columbia and then heads onto the Wrightsville Branch via the Wrightsville Bridge! I learned that the bridge was accessed via a curved grade crossing through the other lines. I had thought that there was a looping ramp and the Wrightsville Branch went over the others. The footage includes going through Wrightsville and arrival in York. Yeah! DIW web site is at http://www.diwks.com. Brad Bower, editor, is reachable via bowerprr@aol.com. The phone number is 800-541-4489. Credit cards are accepted. Brad tells me the video is not yet listed on the web site. The catalog number is OBP-1 and is priced at $34.95 plus $4 shipping & handling. Add $2.10 in Pa. for sales tax. If you order, please tell Brad where you learned about the video...maybe he'll support the site and list via advertising! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JDPanza Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 18:36:38 EST Subject: Re: A Solution? (LONG) Content-Length: 613 I would support the formation of a "club" with dues to support the continuation of PRR-Talk and Keystone Crossings. As I enjoy the information in the format you provide, I feel obligated to support your efforts. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 19:32:30 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: The end of "Keystone Crossings" and "PRR-Talk"? Content-Length: 1362 Carl K Vogel wrote: > > Jerry: > > I think $5 to $10 from each of us could keep you going for awhile. If > done yearly as voluntary dues, most people would understand. If you > pay > for something, you usually appreciate it more. > > Thanks, > > Carl K.Vogel > Recently Reinstated Chief Engineer > Taunton & Tuckerton Railway > I LIKE the idea of keeping it voluntary! Some folks may opt to play "cheating cheapskate" and participate without paying. Who cares? They pay for that attitude in a million ways. There will also be some whose income is such that they cannot send in the support. Hey, that could be me tomorrow If we can generate enought revenue to keep things rolling, the once who can't or won't pay could be welcome. Jerry, please keep in mind we want to do this because it is in our own best intrest. We need our PRR fix! -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS/PRRT&HS ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 19:54:23 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Can we do it? (WasA Solution? (LONG)) Content-Length: 777 I think it is important the list be kept free. It should be shown as "sponsored by" the new PRR Cyber Club (or whatever name) and click to a web site for more information. Who will volunteer as officers? Jerry would be a natural, but it WOULD be viewed as a conflict of interest. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS/PRRT&HS ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:03:35 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Signals and survey Content-Length: 1863 Doug Drew wrote: > > ... what's the story with the IHC PRR signals/signal bridges? I've > never actually seen them, except as a small shot in advertisements. > Are the signal heads oversized? Are the bridges themselves OK, even if > the signal heads themselves are not? What about the Bachmann two-track > signal bridge, this is also PRR prototype (even if the signals are > color-light versions), correct? Would it be correct to kitbash the > Bachmann version into a four-track bridge? Going back to the book, _57 Plans..._, recently mentioned in another thread, page 43 details the type signal bridge as modeled by Bachmann (in 1/4 in. scale, at least). For two, three, and four tracks, the depth of the truss is 6 feet 0 inches. For five and six tracks, seven feet 0 inches deep; for seven and eight tracks, eight feet 0 inches deep. The width (thickness?) of the truss assembly parallel to the line of track increases slightly (4 ft 6 in, 5 ft 0 in, and 6 ft 0 in, respectively, and the spread of the leg assemblies widens as well. For two, three, and four tracks, the only dimension that changes is the length of the bridge span across the right of way. Looks like a kitbash would be as correct as the original model. BTW, the span dimension between center lines of the bridge bents (legs) is 33 ft, 46 ft, and 59 ft, for two, three, and four tracks. The drawing revision date is December, 1917. What a book! Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:25:08 -0500 From: Steve and Brenda Long Subject: Any towers left in Chicago? Content-Length: 506 I just got back on this list, and am curious of any existing towers in Chicago. Can anybody help? Steve Long ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 19:48:06 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: Some more questions Content-Length: 4412 Jeremy >1. When period did PRR use the Circle Keystone on their freight cars? >(when did it start and end) start? sometime around 1930, stop? 1953-54 Obviously, circle keystone cars ran much later than that though as they were often not repainted for over 10 years! >2. When did PRR begin to use the trainphone system? (I do NOT have >access to the web at this point in time and cannot go to KC to find this >info out) Dunnoknow >3. What kinds of paint schemes are correct on the Red Caboose X29s if I >were to model 1950-1954? or 1940-1945? Are there any different schemes >between these 2 dates? RC has done or will do Circle Keystone, Shadow >Keystone, Merchandise Service, PRR/REA, and "Buy War Bonds." 1940-45 (MY ERA!)- Circle keystone (regular and REA), and Buy War Bonds 1950-54 - same as above plus shadow keystone, Merchandise Service (aluminum band over white, circle keystone ('47-'50), all white band, circle keystone ('50-'54)) Note that any Merchandise Service with a shadow keystone dates from mid to late 1954 >5. What locomotives are good for the periods of 1950-1954? or 1940-1945? > Or where can I find this information that is complete. 1940-45 Steam - the following are the LATEST members of easch class, earlier members are allowed: A, B, C class switchers, E6, G6, H10s, I1sa, J1, K4s, L1s, M1a, N1, N2, S1 (6-4-4-6 the) "Big Engine", T1 prototypes (4-4-4-4 #6610, 6611), HH1 (ex N&W Y3 mallets!) I think the S2 (6-8-6 turbine) was built before '45 Electric - DD1, GG1, DD2, R1, O1, P5a (boxcab and modified), L5a >6. We are looking to get a house that has a good 10x12 room with a 9 >foot high ceiling that a layout (YYEESS!!) will go into. I am soliciting >ideas from any and all who would offer their suggestions and what they >would do if they had that space available. These are solicited and the >only thing I would like is some type of locomotive shops (Walthers) and >possibly engine terminal like roundhouse and turntable. Include your >suggestion for time period and why. I figure this should be a fun post >to get some ideas from the group. Layout design is difficult to say the least. If you haven't already done so, check out the Layout Design SIG of the NMRA. We even have a web Primer on layout design, and an active on-line group. Unless you're thinking N-scale, Your space is seriously limitied. If you are going for '40-'45, which is my favorite era, you will need radii of approximately 30" in HO to manage the steam power (many can take tighter turns, but it looks awful!). Unfortunately, very little is available in Pennsy steam in N-scale (Check out GHQ castings L1 Mikado which fits on a kato drive!) With the size you have if you are going HO, I would suggest looking at one of PRR's branch lines, with a double deck layout. One of my favs is the Elmira branch, with great scenery, and a coal dock in Sodus bay. Personally, I would model the Norther portion of the line, with some local trafic, but mostly coal trains to sodus. Make sure you have plenty of staging tracks! I would look at DCC for control, as you would need to have helpers at the back end of nearly ever train! There is a great book on the line by Joe Caloroso (spelling?) which is now out of print, but can be found if you look. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology Scientist, Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stephen Bernas Subject: RE: END! Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 21:34:55 -0500 Content-Length: 1874 I would gladly pay as well. -----Original Message----- From: Larry P. Morgan [SMTP:lpmorgan@iquest.net] Sent: Monday December 22 1997 9:04 PM To: s.a. mccall Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: END! s.a. mccall wrote: > > At 01:48 PM 12/22/97 -0400, you wrote: > >It is with great sorrow that I announce the impending end of > "Keystone > >Crossings", "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-Talk" and the sites that I host for > >free: the Northern Central Chapter of the PRRT&HS and the Keystone > Model > >Railroad Historical Society. > > > Greetings, > > I remember you saying there were about 160 or so members of > PRR-Talk. > Heck that works out to about 62 cents per member. I would be willing > to > pay $1.00/month to keep us up and running.....What do others > think????? > Sincerely, > > S.A. McCall HOSAM > Franklin, Va. > I would gladly pay $20.00 per year -- or more -- in advance! I would consider it in my own best interest and not charity. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS/PRRT&HS ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian Brandt" Subject: Re: END! Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 21:35:54 -0500 Content-Length: 458 Me too! Brian Brandt ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 21:44:20 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: N-6 Content-Length: 1004 Hi...this is for Kris... The best i can tell from pictures i have of wooden PRR cabins is that the roof was some sort of very thin sheet metal over wood with a heavy coat of paint or tar. Wood looks to be white or red oak...given the fact that oak is more durable than pine would have been.(not to mention plentiful) also it has a closer grain than pine and would have been cheap when most of those cars were built.The PRR did a lot of lumber business then too. pictures show a close grain wood. Hope this helps.. H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 21:17:26 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: RE: FoM Content-Length: 2848 And Doug Drew states: >No, Rick, you're not stupid. These kind of questions will keep coming up >again and again, as the Pennsy recedes further and further into history -- > >FoM is e-mail 'shorthand' for Fleet of Modernism. This is what PRR called >its first fleet of streamlined passenger trains. > >Any PRR passenger train experts (attention: Bob Boyd), please correct any >misstatements above... > >-- Doug (often wrong, but never in doubt) Drew ===== Hookaayy, grab "PRR Painting & Lettering" by Tilp and Blardone: The FOM scheme (strictly speaking the Raymond Loewy 1938 scheme) is: FOR HEAVYWEIGHT CARS BLACK roof down to and including the top riveted line - all underbody and trucks LIGHT TUSCAN main carbody and ends from the top to bottom of the side sheet (on betterment cars, to the bottom of the skirts) - the diaphrams DARK TUSCAN (MAROON) the window panel, ending in a circular radius 3' 11" from the end of the side sills OR 1' 10" from the inside edge of the doorway (this radius cuts thru some windows) FOR LIGHTWEIGHT CARS BLACK roof - all underbody and trucks LIGHT TUSCAN carbody and ends from roof line to bottom of skirts - diaphrams DARK TUSCAN (MAROON) the window panel from about 3" above to 3" below the windows, ending in a circular radius 3' 11" from the end of the side sills OR 1' 10" from the inside edge of the doorway. LETTERING AND STRIPING All lettering and striping is done in "gold color" paint. The dark maroon window panel is outlined with a 3/8" gold line with a 1/8" black edge around that. In the lower side panels, there are 5- 1/4" stripes, unevenly spaced, the bottom one being 1/8" from the lower edge of the car side, top one being below the outlined window panel. Above the window panel, there is one last 1/4" stripe. PRR cars were lettered in FUTURA, later in RR Roman. PULLMAN cars were lettered in KABAL (the extended roman "Pullman" lettering) and later in RR Roman. ===== There are more small specifics than this, of course. I recommend the PRR Painting & Lettering Diagrams as a must for any serious PRR modeler. Hope this helps. Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: EMD Cab Units and Lift Rings Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 22:28:46 -0500 Content-Length: 1671 Bill and the group. Thanks for the notes on lift rings. These particular rings talked about were the lift rings that are seen on practically all PRR EMD cab units. I did not know theie use was so widespread. (No life after PRR syndrome) After study of photos of F and E units, it seams that more than one railroad had the lift rings, but that NOT ALL EMD F and E units were fitted with them. (nose) All locomotives normally have lift or sling points and/or jack pads. Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 -----Original Message----- From: Bill Nixon To: prr-talk@dsop.com Cc: Hfitch Date: Tuesday, December 23, 1997 8:46 PM Subject: Re: EMD Cab Units and Lift Rings >I used to have a book published by NYC for P&LE and it had portions >of it done by all the diesel loco manufacturers that showed how to >right a loco and it actually had all the points shown where to attach >slings, etc. I no longer have it so can't check out any more. >I would have to say all manufacturers had them, unless Pennsy had >them special ordered for the nose. >Bill >>Beside the PRR, what roads >>used the lift rings on the nose >>of EMD cab units? ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 22:57:34 EST Subject: Re: Signals and survey Content-Length: 1136 The IHC bridges are a nice inexpensive model of a PRR prototype. The curved braces between the legs and bridge give it away as a PRR design. I've used over 20 so far in my signal project and with a cost of from $8-12 each I see NO reason to look for someone else to duplicate what already exists. The heads provided are the same size as the Oregon heads and could be used. I'm using the Integrated Signal System PRR heads along with their dwarfs and lower quardrant heads. The dwarfs use a 1mm led ,the smallest currently available and these are beautiful !!! ISS advertises in Model Railroader and has been around for quite some time. Ken McCorry ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 23:11:32 -0500 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: END! Content-Length: 976 Stephen Bartlett wrote: > > s.a. mccall wrote: > > > > I remember you saying there were about 160 or so members of PRR-Talk. > > Heck that works out to about 62 cents per member. I would be willing to > > pay $1.00/month to keep us up and running.....What do others think????? > > Count me in. > > Steve Bartlet > Count me in, too. I'd like to think there are enough here willing to do so, so that the payment can remain voluntary. The trailer at the end of each post could urge subscribers to contribute. -- Jerry Shickler e-mail: geshick@velocity.net ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 00:37:43 -0500 From: "Tom von Trott" Subject: Looking for a URL: 643 pics Content-Length: 934 During the 1997 williams grove steam show someone in the group took some shots of the 643 and crew running and then later posted them on the net. I went and copied the pics, and bookmarked the URL. Unfortunately due to a hard drive crash this fall I lost the pics, and the URL for the site that had them. I unfortuataly don't remember the name of the person who sent me the URL (I had his e-mail address bookmarked to, that was unfortunalty lost also) I would appricate it if this person would resend me the address. Tom von Trott ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:09:09 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Modeling survey... Content-Length: 1019 Mark D Bej wrote: > > PRR had several semi-standard station designs, each designed for towns/ > cities of a certain size. See Lancaster, Johnstown for medium-city ones; > Newport, Pa. (west of Harrisburg) and others for small-town ones. Not > easily built otherwise. > Mark and everyone, Re: your reference to the station design as used at Johnstown. I remember it as being of a modelable size, red brick, with tall white columns, but not much else. I have been wanting one in O scale for my railroad. Could you point me toward either plans or pictures of this type station? Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: END! Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:24:51 -0600 Content-Length: 685 << s.a. mccall wrote: > > I remember you saying there were about 160 or so members of PRR-Talk. > Heck that works out to about 62 cents per member. I would be willing to > pay $1.00/month to keep us up and running.....What do others think????? I'm in. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: Modeling survey... Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:37:53 -0600 Content-Length: 863 Adding to my list, rather than proliferating duplicates of existing models, it occurs to me that a correct model of just the most common 8-wheel doghouse tender for the I1 would not only complement the Bowser I1 with its now-correct boiler diameter, but would beat most of the brass models out there. I would buy one to trail my I1 with a Cary boiler (now I use a modified L1 tender, which was correct for only one or two of the 500-plus hippos). Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 23 Dec 97 12:22:28 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: PRR Talk Subscription Content-Length: 5238 --====49485456485654525557===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" There seems to be substantial interest by users of this e-mail list about paying fees to support it. The Layout Design SIG has an interesting approach, access to their e-mail discussion list (one of the best I've seen, in terms of intelligent, challenging discourse) is granted when you submit dues to the organization, which are basically to pay for production of their paper publications. They don't publicize the list, and LDSIG members are on the 'honor system' not to distribute how to access it. I stumbled on the address somehow, subscribed, but found the list was generating so many e-mail messages on subjects I didn't care about (DCC, helixes, multi-tier layouts) that I unsubscribed. They also had a terrific e-mail archive website that I tended to use instead, that they unfortunately discontinued, as it too was costing its maintainer too much to keep up. Back to the point: I wouldn't mind paying a reasonable annual amount ($10-12) for the priviledge of subscription to this list, and continued (password?) access to Keystone Crossings. If enough people feel the same way, the price could be even more reasonable than the above. It would be helpful to maintain a useable archive of past postings on the KC site, as part of the bargain (sorry, Jerry, but the PRR-talk archive that was on KC was not terribly user-friendly, nor robust). Hal6963 wrote: >$1 per month or an annual subscription of $12, What a bargain! > >Where do I mail the check? > >Harold >Lines South (The Florida Trains) > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help >save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====49485456485654525557===1 Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:28:32 -0800 From: bhelbert@fhcrc.org (Bruce Helbert) Subject: Re: EMD Cab Units and Lift Rings Content-Length: 720 >Beside the PRR, what roads >used the lift rings on the nose >of EMD cab units? Harry, Out West (well Northwest?) Northern Pacific for sure. FT's had them, but they must have been added at a later date, possibly along with the bigger numberboards. Ref: Northwest Rail Pictorial, Warren Wing. Bruce. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:11:05 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: END! Content-Length: 1120 Greetings, Am sending this on to the list.... From: ARR JERRY Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:05:08 EST To: hosam@gc.net Subject: Re: END! Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Hi, I for one would gladly pay a $1 or $2 a month to continue this valuable hobby benefit. Lets not let this die. This was sent to my home e-mail address but wasn't signed, so I don't know who to thank. How about all you other fellows out there, interested? Note to Jerry, I don't know what ISP's charge but look into the least expensive provider and get back to the list. I think something can be worked out....... Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:22:32 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: firming up on cyber-PRR Content-Length: 2155 Jerry writes: >Over the past 12 hours, there have been numerous posts to the list and to >me direct about the possibility of "subscription fees" for continuing the >operation of "PRR-Talk". > >It would only be appropriate that such support be tendered via the >prospective "cyber chapter". Whether or not this chapter ever attains >official chaptership, we could at least operate as a cyber group in >support of PRR modeling. Modeling seems to be the main interest of the >cyber proposal, followed closely by more support for Lines West. ===== Seems like we are all in agreement on the desirability of a cyber-PRR group (hopefully affiliated with the PRRHTS) and on having it subsidize PRR-Talk. At this point, I think we should look seriously at getting out of the station. * we will need to incorporate and/or get the corporate blessings of PRRHTS * we need to define what officers we need and elect a set * we need to define dues, set up a bank account and post for formal memberships * we need to define what this cyber-PRR will do (beyond foaming). Particularly we need to define how PRR-Talk and KC will relate to the cyber-PRR (will they be official functions?) Time to p--- or get off the pot. "I Move that we establish a cyber organization dedicated to PRR history, preservation AND modeling with full consideration to both Lines East AND Lines West, and that this organization be affilitated with the PRRHTS." All in favor? Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: EMD Cab Units and Lift Rings Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:31:11 -0500 Content-Length: 830 > Beside the PRR, what roads > used the lift rings on the nose > of EMD cab units? _________________ Northern Pacific F's had these lift rings mounted on the nose, but slightly wider than the PRR. Sant Fe F's (some of them) had them as well. And there's more, but they don;t come to mind, so I won't make a guess that could be wrong (like Rock Island and SP). Have a happy, Andrew Harmantas, SPF. among others. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:49:01 EST Subject: Re: Some more questions Content-Length: 5484 In a message dated 97-12-23 11:23:27 EST, locoshop@juno.com writes: << 1. When period did PRR use the Circle Keystone on their freight cars? (when did it start and end) Jan 1. 1930 Feb, 1954 2. When did PRR begin to use the trainphone system? (I do NOT have access to the web at this point in time and cannot go to KC to find this info out) 3. What kinds of paint schemes are correct on the Red Caboose X29s if I were to model 1950-1954? or 1940-1945? Are there any different schemes between these 2 dates? RC has done or will do Circle Keystone, Shadow Keystone, Merchandise Service, PRR/REA, and "Buy War Bonds." 1940-1945 Circle Keystone and REA Express, Buy War Bonds 1950 - 54 Circle Keystone and REA Express after February a small percent could be shadow keystone new paint no weathering Merchandise Service 4. Can anyone give me a copy of the freight car list for 1944 that Mr. Orr placed on the email group? (another inadvertently deleted item) Did I post 1944? Must be losing my mind. I don't remember posting it. Oh well here is the 1948 list which I posted. Oct 1948 PRR roster numbers by class FLATS F22 119 F23 6 F25 17 F25A 6 F25B 2 F25C 2 F28 2 F29 20 F30 93 F30A 1500 F30C 1 F31A 20 F32 1 F33 16 F34 3 F35 10 F36 30 F37 20 FGR 545 FGRA 508 FM 1951 FN 10 FNA 27 GONS G21 1 G22 5527 G22A 290 G22B 292 G23 1 G24 747 G25 2474 G25A 7 G26 1649 G26A 699 G27 4497 G28 1897 G28A 1 G29 1998 G29A 500 G29B 500 G30 1000 GR 5458 GRA 13248 GS 16637 GSX 85 GSD 28 GSG 1 GSH 893 HOPPERS GLA 22505 GLCA 8244 GLCB 1 GLD 296 GLE 249 GLF 1 GLG 250 H21A, H21B, H21E 39553 H21D 1 H22 1 H22A 245 H25 5253 H27 1 H30 1325 H31 710 H31A 1 H31B 500 H32 37 STOCK CARS K7 25 K7A 1417 K8 989 EXPRESS REEFERS (PASSENGER SERVICE) R50A 1 R50B 546 R60 26 BOX CARS ARA 1 X23 1828 X23A 37 X23B 257 X24 119 X25 7749 X25A 1528 X25B 4 X25C 1 X25D 6 X26 6714 X26A 1 X26C 2995 X28A 4777 X29 27468 X29A 1 X29B 381 X30 1 X31 449 X31A SGL DOOR 6644 X31A DBL DOOR 607 X31B 1184 X31C 806 X31F 690 X32 16 X32A 700 X32B 884 X32C 114 X33 48 X33A 298 X35 1 X36 1 X37 994 X37A 499 X37B 1495 X38 2290 X38A 597 X38B 1 X40 6 X40A 4 X40B 100 X41 289 X41A 200 X41B 1500 X41C 500 5. What locomotives are good for the periods of 1950-1954? or 1940-1945? Or where can I find this information that is complete. Below is the info for 1948. Each year will be different as diesels were added. I know of no complete list of PRR steam locomotives. If you want a specific year, let me know. Also Pennsy Diesel Years Vol 1 has the complete pre-1966 diesel roster in the back with the dates acquired. You can use this to develop a roster for any given year except the scraped wrecks. Pennsy Power II has information on some retirements of diesels. 3907 A6b 5750A-5759A PA-1 55750B-5758B PB-1 5770A-5787A BP20 5770B-5786B BP20 5823-5864 BP60 semi-permanently coupled pairs with same number on each loco in pair 5840A-5865A E-7 5840B-5864B E-7B even numbers only 5900A-5901A E-7 5900B E7B 5906 RS-1 5907-5909 VO 660 5910 SW1 5911 SW 5912 NW2 5913-5920 VO 1000 5921-5925 NW2 5926-5931 S2 5932-5937 VO 660 5941 5943 VO 660 5944-5953 SW1 5954-5956 S1 5957-5966 DS 4-4-660 5967-5979 DS 4-4-1000 5980-5986 H10-44 5987-5999 SW1 9100-9103 S1 9104 SW1 9105-9109 S2 9110-9121 DS 4-4-660 9122-9136 DS 4-4-1000 9137-9154 SW1 9155-9176 NW2 9177-9183 DS 4-4-1000 9184-9199 H10-44 9200-9203 SW1 9204 S2 9205-9209 SW1 9210-9236 DS 4-4-660 9237-9246 S1 9247-9250 NW2 9251-9275 DS 4-4-1000 9276-9277 DRS 4-4-1000 9278-9287 S2 9288-9299 H10-44 9238-9349 ge 44TON 9456A-9479A ERIE BUILTS 9456B-9478B ERIE BUILTS EVEN NUMBER ONLY 9500A-9545A F3 9500B-9536B F3B 9540B 9545B F3B >> If you need more or other information, e-mail me direct. I don't want to clog up the group. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 15:45:42 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Cyber Chapter Content-Length: 1728 Greetings, I am all in favor of forming a group to ensure the continuation of "PRR-Talk", but cannot see any advantage in affilliating with the PRRT&HS. Would someone out there explain to me the advantages of becoming the Cyber Chapter of the PRRT&HS. I feel that the continued exchange of information and ideas which have come forth on "PRR-Talk" have been of value to me. Having never been a member of the PRRT&HS and not planning to join, it holds no value for me. I am some distance from the locations of the Societys meetings/conventions etc so attending them is not a probability. I enjoy the anonymity of cyber space, it allows one to send and receive information without the biases of our civilization. One never knows the age, sex, race, religon or any other fact which is not revealed by the writer. One simply accepts the e-mail as is without prejudice. Since there is no interpersonal intercourse, corrections seem to come easier and without confrontation. I have found e-mail on the PRR-Talk to be most courteous as opposed to chat groups. There must be a great number of lurkers out there who will read this and not reply. Well why not? Speak up and let your feelings be known!!!!!!!!! Thanks for the time......... Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:11:49 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: Re: END! Content-Length: 755 Stephen Bartlett wrote: > s.a. mccall wrote: > > > > I remember you saying there were about 160 or so members of > PRR-Talk. > > Heck that works out to about 62 cents per member. I would be > willing to > > pay $1.00/month to keep us up and running.....What do others > think????? > > Count me in. > > Steve Bartlet I'm in!Roger Elliott ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249 Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:15:35 EST Subject: "TRAINS" CHRISTMAS MARATHON Content-Length: 818 History Channel will run their "Trains Unlimited" series in a Christmas day Marathon starting at 9 AM Eastern Last nights "History of Model Railroading" was basically a history of Lionel. Did anyone else notice that the fellow with the "highly decorated and accurate" southwestern layout was running a PRR H-10 and a B-6 with ATSF or SP lettering - (very large numbers on the Tenders) Dick Ross Cleveland ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:28:56 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: Solutions? Content-Length: 665 Merry Christmas Jerry! I like your proposed solution and the idea of a cyber club, especially since I live in Arcata, CA! I think the idea of keeping the listserv free sounds good and then password access to archives based on membership. Thanks, Roger Elliott ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 17:27:22 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Count me in ! Content-Length: 2011 Dear Jerry... Count me in...Your site is such a invaluable help to me that it would be more than worth it to keep it going. As far as board members go... I am so busy in life..the only thing i might be able to do is be an advisor or idea man. I am lucky i get to get on when i do. Perhaps You need to get a positive list of names of folks who will send dues/subscribe so you can get a better idea of how many will be in this. Then let us all know how much or due/subscription is. All of us need to be here or some where we can give rapid responces to decide on a board and whom to send the dues to. hope to hear from you soon on this..best wishes..and Hope you and your family have a great Christmas and New Year. H.Mummert P.S. this is just a thought...What is the possiblity of contacting the N.C. chapter PRR T&HS and see if the/a cyber chapter could be hosted by their chapters umbrella(so to speak).Perhaps it could be run under the N.C. chapter to... 1. Help get recognition for said chapter by being under the N.C s umbrella so the PRR T&HS can see how it would work out/be made a reality 2. See how it could possibly work out with a group that is already set up as such and to get an idea how to go about getting PRR T&HS approval. 3. To give persons in this cyber chapter/N.C. chapter some experiance so later after PRR T&HS approval it can go out on its own much easier. 4.? To give the N.C. chapter more exposure and perhaps more members. just a few thoughts... ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Black Gold, Black Diamonds... Date: Tue, 23 Dec 97 17:42:22 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 983 Hi all Went home for lunch before and I was pretty surprised to finally see the new PRR book "Black Gold, Black Diamonds" sitting in a box by my door! I think I ordered it sometime in late August! At first glance (didn't have too much time to thumb through it) it seems like a great book. It has a nice selection of good clear b&w photos of all types of PRR motive equiptment (builders photos & others) I can't say much about the content of the book other than that. I guess it should be in RR book stores now too.... Just thought you might want to know... Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: The end of "Keystone Crossings" and "PRR-Talk"? (fwd) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 17:43:22 EST Content-Length: 726 > time during the past year. Granted we may be getting a reduced rate as a non- > profit but it isn't an 80% discount. > Rich Orr Jerry, Rich, this is an argument in favor of a Cyber chapter: we'd get nonprofit web hosting prices based on PRRTHS status, and we could further support it via dues if necessary. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 18:01:29 -0500 From: "R. Vogel" Subject: Re: The end of "Keystone Crossings" and "PRR-Talk"? Content-Length: 1036 Jerry, Take our money, please! PRR Talk and Keystone Crossings are valuable resources. I am in the middle of building an addition including a model railroad room. I have learned a lot but need to know more to build the railroad. Like many of us I'm a member of PRRT&HS, but a daily dose of PRR Talk is helps my cravings between quarterly issues. Jerry wrote: > It is with great sorrow that I announce the impending end of "Keystone > Crossings", "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-Talk" and the sites that I host for > free: the Northern Central Chapter of the PRRT&HS and the Keystone Model > Railroad Historical Society. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:13:28 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: Half "G" Content-Length: 2042 bubbles@visi.net wrote: > > Hi folks... > Harry Fitch and i have been talking about the half "G" that used to be at > Wilmington Shops...i mentioned it to him and he gave me some info on it. > I thought i had'nt seen things then. Was a long time ago. > Did anyone else see it?..what happened to it? > > H.Mummert > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Bubbles, I saw the half-G in Wilmington and took photos of it back in May 1982. It has (had ?) a snow blower built into what had been the middle of the body and small bay windows added so the engineer could "drive" it backwards. the nose end was still the same and had the only coupler. It was obviously used to clear snow from yard tracks, but also saw duty, as I was told at the time, as a switcher. Since there were dozens of G's on the dead line awaiting the scrap torch :-( maybe it was used to move them around. I sent copies of the slide I took to Al Staufer to include in his PENNSY POWER III, but unfortunately neither they nor mention of this odd bird appeared in the book. Sorry, but I don't know if it's still around. maybe someone else has that information and can pass it on to the rest of us. Charlie Fox ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:56:22 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: Modeling survey... Content-Length: 3078 Mark D Bej wrote: > > > 1. What motive power would you like to see, and in what scale? > > 2. What cars would you like/scale? > > 3. What MOW equip./scale? > > 4. What buildings/scale? > > 5. What signals or controlling devices/scale? > > 6. Any suggestions outside the above? > > 7. Are there any scratchbuilder/master makers who would like to join this > > effort and have items produced? > > 8. Thank you all for your contributions and your time. > > PRR had several semi-standard station designs, each designed for towns/ > cities of a certain size. See Lancaster, Johnstown for medium-city ones; > Newport, Pa. (west of Harrisburg) and others for small-town ones. Not > easily built otherwise. > > PRR towers: again, about 2-4 designs would suffice for a large portion > of the system. > > Signals: (and in reply to another post): NJI's are out of scale. There's > this fellow Amos ... (forgive me: it's either Amos or Amos, > don't even know which) out of St. Louis who makes scale signals by hand > out of brass, using LEDs - nice, but not cheap. He's at PRRTHS meetings, > check his stuff out. He mounts on mast, bracket post, or one of 4 > bridges as per your wishes. > > No one to my knowledge makes PRR-typical catenary stuff. There were at > 4 styles that I can think of (Paoli line as a special case; I-beam > construction all around: by far the most common; round uprights as near > Wilmington and ??Newark International; then those heavy catenary-anchor > bridges, many of which are near Philly). (THen there's the ad-hoc > varieties, like the catenary held up by wooden posts at the tail ends > of the cat wire in Enola Yard and Harrisburg Yard. > > -- > Mark > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Mark, Regarding the PRR-type catenary stuff, you must have missed my post to the list about a week or so ago that HO scale Pennsy (suburban) catenary poles are sold at $8.95/pr by Friedlein's Rail replicas, P.O. Box 262, Medford, OR 97501. Take a look at the article in the April 1997 Model Railroader entitled "Lessons of the South Penn" by Neal Schorr. On page 114 there is a photo of the layout with these poles used--though in a modern setting where the wires are removed. Charlie Fox ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 21:07:31 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: END! Content-Length: 1188 Stephen Bartlett wrote: > > s.a. mccall wrote: > > > > I remember you saying there were about 160 or so members of PRR-Talk. > > Heck that works out to about 62 cents per member. I would be willing to > > pay $1.00/month to keep us up and running.....What do others think????? > > Count me in. > > Steve Bartlet > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help > save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Steve, Jerry, and the list: DITTO ! Charlie Fox ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 21:47:14 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: The Solution? (How about this idea?) Content-Length: 2368 Jerry and list members: Jerry, you've got a lot of good points in your original post on the subject (not repeated so the server wouldn't "choke" ) Anyhow, how about this idea (as a composite of some essential parts)? Re: starting a cyber chapter with dues payed to someone (etc., etc., per your post) with a portion of the annual membership fee being used to support PRR-Talk, et al--perhaps some one could contact the PRRT&HS national president William Wheeler by writing to: PRRT&HS P.O. Box 389, Upper Darby, PA 19082. To keep it short for the list, what we'd need to know is whether or not such a chapter could be formed under the bylaws/charter or whatever the document title is that establishes the PRRT&HS, and how it should be administered under that "umbrella". Next, some people on the list recently wondered how (physical) meetings, conventions, etc., could be held. I'm sure there are list members who are also members of the National Model Railroad Association (NMRA) who could find out from them how they not only manage to host conventions, but also how the NMRA itself is established in it's various regions (all over the world), so some organizational information can be gathered and used to the benefit of trying to start and maintain a cyber chapter which can also host a convention at a location other that the east coast. Bob Dye is the NMRA secretary and can be reached at Maybe he'd be able to help. Okay, you ask why I don't do this myself on behalf of the list? I wish I had time to sit here more than about 45 min. each day, or I would most definitely offer to do it. My other half is not too happy that I'm spending time right now at the keyboard, rather than helping her with holiday preparations. Is there anyone out there who can help the rest of us? Sure would be great to get something going so we can save PRR-Talk and have a good time with the Pennsy. Charlie Fox ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 22:06:12 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: Signals and survey Content-Length: 3766 Doug Drew wrote: > > At the risk of being flamed for my utter stupidity, what's the story > with the IHC PRR signals/signal bridges? I've never actually seen > them, except as a small shot in advertisements. Are the signal heads > oversized? Are the bridges themselves OK, even if the signal heads > themselves are not? What about the Bachmann two-track signal bridge, > this is also PRR prototype (even if the signals are color-light > versions), correct? Would it be correct to kitbash the Bachmann > version into a four-track bridge? I don't really feel like > scratchbuilding a bunch of signal bridges, or buying bra$$ ones, if an > acceptable, if not perfect, plastic model replica is available... it > will go along with the rest of my acceptable, if not PRRfect, models. > > locoshop wrote: > >Hello all, > > > >On the signal question, I see that we keep bringing up the > "oversized" NJ > >signals, and no others are mentioned as being available. I believe we > >are overlooking some of the best signals on the market--Oregon Rail > >Supply. These signals look great and you can get a diode logic board > to > >help them run correctly. Through ORS you can even buy the detection > kits > >for them. These signals, in my mind, look the best all around--hence > the > >reason that they are sometimes hard to get. > > > >On the survey, I myself would even love to see a GOOD "shark-nose" > >diesel and I would love Centipedes (now I am dreaming okay) cause I > could > >NOT afford the $1300 price on the pair of Overlands recently. I would > >also love to see an PRR interlocking tower like ALTO in Altoona:-). > Of > >course all of the preceding are in HO scale. > > > >Jeremy Helms > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- > >Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to > help > >save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. > >------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". Drew, At the risk of sounding big-headed and being flamed for it, I designed the IHC signal bridge, with the help of a friend, when I used to work for them some years back. It was based on using part of the tooling from their water bridge. The bridge-work itself is PRR-design, though perhaps somewhat simplified to keep the cost of the kit to a reasonable retail price. The signal heads may be a bit oversized (sorry, can't remember for sure), but I designed them to used the then popular size 3mm LED if someone wanted to separately add operating lights, and still have the proportional "feel" of correct size, both in relation to the signal heads (target faces) and the overall kit. I'm told the Bachmann kit is also a PRR prototype design, but I can't verify that. One thing I can say for sure after having spent time with the AMTRAK folks in their office at 30th Street Station in Phila. doing the research, that each signal bridge had it's own drawing because each one was different from any other in some respect, no matter how small. Therefore, it would be safe to say that either model could be used as-is or modified as your model pike requires and still be correct. Charlie Fox ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Reprieve for KC & PRR-Talk Date: Wed, 24 Dec 97 08:19:19 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 985 Santa visited yesterday and left an e-mail commitment to sponsor ($20/month) the site and list for one year. That provides one third of the requisite funding. Watch for their banner around January 1. Another vendor and I are in talks (e-mails) about hosting their web site ($20/month). If that comes through, that will be another third. Things are looking up! Please support our sponsors! --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 07:43:30 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Re: EMD Cab Units and Lift Rings Content-Length: 1010 At 09:28 AM 12/23/97 -0800, you wrote: >>Beside the PRR, what roads >>used the lift rings on the nose >>of EMD cab units? Greetings, I looked thru about a dozen books and other publications, cannot find any other roads that had those lift rings on the nose of EMD cab units. My research leads me to beleive the lift rings were added by the roads as all the as delivered pics do not show them. What were these lift rings used for? Why didn't other roads use them? Were there lift rings on the rear as well? Need some enlightment on this....... Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Signals/bridges Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 07:58:26 -0500 Content-Length: 1023 Would someone care to make good accurate copies of the signal bridge plans/drawings, and send them to me? I would be happy to produce these in either cast metal or photo-etched brass. I believe I can make easy to build kits of these items. The contributor will get one of each kit for free as my way of saying thanks, and the rest of PRR-Talk users will get to purchase them at a discounted price. I don't sell to dealers, and therefore can assure you of affordable pricing. I will produce these in N, HO and possibly O scale. Thank you in advance, and Merry Christmas, Joe Zappa, Liberty Model Productions ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 08:27:43 EST Subject: Re: Some more questions Content-Length: 2578 In a message dated 97-12-24 08:02:03 EST, you write: << Looking for decent operations but more with a focus on locomotive shops (I have LOTS of engines) and a roundhouse (kind of like Altoona). Hope this helps give some more ideas. >> Jeremy, Okay, I'm a Lines West partisan, so lIt's not surprising that I'll be offering a Lines West Solution. This will only work if you don't want to do electric. Modeling Fort Wayne might be what you're looking for. The Fort Wayne System's mainline was the Pennsy's primary New York to Chicago route for passenger, freight and mail traffic. While only double tracked west of Canton, Ohio, this line was heavily used throughout the day by every type of train and consist found on the Pennsylvania.. If you choose to model 1940-1945, you can run some of the pretty]iest steam power made, the T-1, the S-1, and the Qs, the Q-1 4-4-6-4 and Q-2 4-6-4-4 (or is it the other way around. These massive passenger engines where too long for some curves east of Pittsburgh and had notorious traction problems so they generally were used only west of Crestline, Ohhio, on the Fort Wany, and west of Columbus (to St. Louis only because of the grades heading into Cincinati) on the Panhandle I speci9fy Fort Wayne, Ind., because it was the location of the Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne & Chicago .Railway's locomotive and car erecting shops. While not utilitzed to the extent of of the Altoona or Sam Rea Shops, a number of of the Fort Wayne's locomotives were built there during the late 1800s and during the early 1900s was the location of a number of engine and car rebuilding programs. It was also where the PRR's north-south Grand Rapids & Indiana "crossed" the mainline. Since the GR&I was operated by the Fort Wayne as a separate railroad until the PRR consolidation of operations between 1913 and 1923, Fort WAyne was also the location of separate GR&I terminals and shops. Anolther PRR line, I believe the Toledo, Logansport & Burlington, part of the Panhandle, passed through Fort WAyne from the southwest tol northeast, giving a little more operational choices. I hope this helps, Tom Vondruska ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 07:50:04 -0600 From: Bob Webber Subject: Re: N-6 Content-Length: 1209 At 09:44 PM 12/23/97 -0500, you wrote: > Hi...this is for Kris... > > The best i can tell from pictures i have of wooden PRR cabins is that > the roof was some sort of very thin sheet metal over wood with a heavy > coat of paint or tar. > > Wood looks to be white or red oak...given the fact > that oak is more durable than pine would have been.(not to mention plentiful) > also it has a closer grain than pine and would have been cheap when most of > those cars were built.The PRR did a lot of lumber business then too. > pictures show a close grain wood. Hope this helps.. > > H.Mummert > Most wood cabooses (and quite a few loco cabs) had sheet tin applied to the roof (as much for protection against buring embers as anything else). ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:02:15 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: "PRR-Talk" subscribers Content-Length: 1644 Greetings, Here is the list of those who said they would voluntarily submit dues. So far there are only 20, I may have missed a e-mail or so, if there are others who wish to join send in your name. Stephen Bartlett Bill Knepper s.a. mccall Carl K Vogel Greg Leary Bunger, James Hal6963 (doesn't sign a name) ARR JERRY Robert A. Boyd George ierson Doug Drew Bob Zoeller Stephen Bernas JDPanza Larry P. Morgan Eichhorn Rick Nelson Da72jmk (doesn't sign a name) H.Mummert Actually there are only 19 names, I am assuming Jerry will also become a member. From the last post it seems as if this group would only have to make up around $55.00/month. That would work out to $2.75/month/member. Round it off to $3.00/month/member and that would cover banking costs for an account. There may be many at this time who are doing other things and are not reading this post. We should wait until the first week in January to push this issue. To those who are not able to afford any cost, send in your names to show support for keeping PRR-Talk in operation. More later, after Christmas. Merry Christmas and a Prosperous New Year to All!!! Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: Cab Numberboards Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:03:29 -0500 Content-Length: 1204 And, SPF's, one small but critical aspect of these "bug board" uniquely-PRR number boards is that the class light was a part of the number board--the very small bump on the top center is the class light. The key is to find a unit equipped with these number boards that still retained their EMD as delivered class lights. I've never seen any evidence to the contrary. These number boards can be modeled in O Scale fairly easily. If you can purchase a set of Cal Scale Pennsy number boards, and inpspect it closely, you will see how basic their construction is, and it is a simple matter to translate the same level of detail with brass or styrene. 'py nooo year, andrew harmantas, watching the trains at C&O Milepost FM Zero. Nothing moving today. Must be a holiday lull, or something. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: N6 cabin cars Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:29:36 -0500 Content-Length: 2209 Hi Kris, Sorry it took so long to dig up this info, but it is Christmas... The KEYSTONE issue 1989 summer vol 22, # 2 has just what you are looking for.... There is a color shot of the newly restored N6b at Lancaster, Pa. station ( were it still sits today with a GG1. Also all the info on how, why, what materials used, etc. is in the article. The roof was pine strip wood covered with canvas, which was painted...(page 10) If you can't get a copy of the KEYSTONE....contact me with your address and after the first of the year ( when I get back to work) I copy the article for you. Bill Knepper (boxcar46@nfdc.net) PRRT&HS / NCR Chapter Member / SPF ---------- > From: kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: N6 cabin cars > Date: Monday, December 22, 1997 11:05 AM > > Happy Holidays every one, > > I have a question regarding N6 cabin cars. Can anyone describe what the > roof of these cars was made from? ie, was it tar covered sheet metal, tar > covered fabric (like canvas), plain old sheet metal painted black? Any > help would be greatly appreciated. > > Different topic -- Is it safe to assume that the running boards atop > freight cars were made from wood? And as such would be greatly prone to > weathering to a gray tone much more quickly than the rest of the car? > > Kris Kollar > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:34:09 EST Subject: Solutions: plan of action Content-Length: 1619 To all, first a happy holiday to you and yours, Merry Christmas, Happy Chaunakkah, Pleasant Kanzaa and a Fruitful New Year, IIs quite clear that a concensus is emerging for solidifying the online community that's grown up around K.C. and PRR-Talk into a permanent organization. It is time, therefore, for some concrete steps to be taken. First, I suggest we take a breather to enjoy the holidays with our families. Then, sometime next week a move should be amde to form a committee which would draft a statement of nmission and purpose for a proposed PRR modelers' organization, roughly outlien activities in which the organization would participate and the perquisites of memebership. Once geneeral agreement is reached on what the organization will do, a consensus should be reached on an organizational structure and to nominate officers and board members to fill the various positions. Once the leadership is agreed upon,other deatils such as dues structure, meeting and events schedule, publicity shouild begin falling into place. I have not set a timeline for any of this other than the first step so those involved can make decisions based upon their own needs. Tom Vondruska ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 24 Dec 97 09:39:33 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: More on Chinese engines Content-Length: 5412 --====53565049485254554851===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" >I've read and seen pictures of new American-style road-size steamers >being built in China only some ten years ago... I wonder if the >capacity to build them still exists there? The *capacity*, yes. but China has ceased production of new steam locomotives. If you have the opportunity (and can afford it), I strongly recommend traveling to that country to witness the world's last big-time steam operation (auto travel outside of cities is virtually non-existent), while it is still running. I recently saw a slide show presented by a person who had recently been there, and China's steam operations are indeed impressive, even if the locomotives do have red stars on their driver hubs. However, diesels and now electrification are encroaching, surprisingly quickly. Naturally, coal mining areas will be the last stronghold of steam locomotives. China was the last country building them new. They still have the massive equipment in place to form the boilers, turn drivers, forge axles and the like (though, given that it's China, a lot of work that was mechanized in this country may have been done with hand labor) as they still have to backshop their huge fleet of steam. Perhaps a bee should be put in Strasburg or Steamtown's bonnet about making arrangements to obtain some of that equipment before it, too, is gone. >> Well let's think about this for a second: if we are talking building a >> brand new locomotive from the rails up, why settle for a T1? Why not >do >> the Big Engine? I realize this is Rotisserie-League locomotive building, but the Big Engine would not be a good choice, given its long fixed wheelbase which limited its utility to lines with ample curvature -- the Fort Wayne between Crestline and Chicago, mostly. The T-1's, over-powered and therefore slippery as they were, were at least able to run on the curves on the Pittsburgh division. I think the Big Engine was mainly to "wow" everybody at the 1939-40 World's Fair. Has anyone ever seen a shot of the Big Engine on PRR lines besides the Crestline-Chicago segment (and I don't mean being delivered to the World's Fair)? -- Doug Drew --====53565049485254554851===1 Date: 24 Dec 97 10:01:51 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: FoM Content-Length: 10232 --====51515651495048525051===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Thanks, Bob! I'm writing from work, here, and I have seen relatively few shots of the FOM scheme, and none in color. A failing memory often doesn't serve well in this circumstance... I'm waiting to see someone do a paint job of an FOM car, with that scale 1/8" black line on the outside of the 3/8" gold... what a fun masking project THAT would be... like getting those cat whiskers down to 1/8" width with 1/8" spaces between, on the noses of passenger units. ;<) Did Rivarossi once do some of their streamline cars in FOM? Any idea of how it came out? By "heavyweight", I assume you mean equipment that was rebuilt, with air conditioning, and the former clerestory roof ends faired so they would "match" the streamline end profiles? Did any heavyweight equipment with the more typical ends also have this scheme applied? Was the FOM scheme ever applied to head-end cars (difficult to believe), or strictly to passenger-carrying equipment? -- Doug (used to be streamlined, but now a heavyweight) Drew rboydrrs wrote: >And Doug Drew states: > >>No, Rick, you're not stupid. These kind of questions will keep coming up >>again and again, as the Pennsy recedes further and further into history -- >> >>FoM is e-mail 'shorthand' for Fleet of Modernism. This is what PRR called >>its first fleet of streamlined passenger trains. >> >>Any PRR passenger train experts (attention: Bob Boyd), please correct any >>misstatements above... >> >>-- Doug (often wrong, but never in doubt) Drew > >===== > >Hookaayy, grab "PRR Painting & Lettering" by Tilp and Blardone: > >The FOM scheme (strictly speaking the Raymond Loewy 1938 scheme) is: > >FOR HEAVYWEIGHT CARS > >BLACK roof down to and including the top riveted line - all underbody and trucks > >LIGHT TUSCAN main carbody and ends from the top to bottom of the side sheet >(on betterment cars, to the bottom of the skirts) - the diaphrams > >DARK TUSCAN (MAROON) the window panel, ending in a circular radius 3' 11" >from the end of the side sills OR 1' 10" from the inside edge of the >doorway (this radius cuts thru some windows) > >FOR LIGHTWEIGHT CARS > >BLACK roof - all underbody and trucks > >LIGHT TUSCAN carbody and ends from roof line to bottom of skirts - diaphrams > >DARK TUSCAN (MAROON) the window panel from about 3" above to 3" below the >windows, ending in a circular radius 3' 11" from the end of the side sills >OR 1' 10" from the inside edge of the doorway. > >LETTERING AND STRIPING > >All lettering and striping is done in "gold color" paint. > >The dark maroon window panel is outlined with a 3/8" gold line with a 1/8" >black edge around that. > >In the lower side panels, there are 5- 1/4" stripes, unevenly spaced, the >bottom one being 1/8" from the lower edge of the car side, top one being >below the outlined window panel. > >Above the window panel, there is one last 1/4" stripe. > >PRR cars were lettered in FUTURA, later in RR Roman. > >PULLMAN cars were lettered in KABAL (the extended roman "Pullman" >lettering) and later in RR Roman. > >===== > >There are more small specifics than this, of course. I recommend the PRR >Painting & Lettering Diagrams as a must for any serious PRR modeler. > >Hope this helps. > > >Robert A. Boyd >Those Classic Trains >"Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." > >========================================================== > >"The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com >The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help >save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====51515651495048525051===1 Date: 24 Dec 97 10:16:24 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: Signals and survey Content-Length: 2013 Great info! Thanks for the help Steve! OK, that answers my question about the Bachmann bridge (their HO version is the same prototype as the O scale) -- what about the IHC version? I've noticed when perusing photos that PRR apparently had several different designs of signal bridges, rather than a single standard applied universally across the system. But it is good to know that there is a fairly-accurate and inexpensive model of a PRR prototype out there. Given the number of references to this "57 plans" book on this list lately, there seems to be a crying need for a reprint... Stephen Bartlett wrote: >Going back to the book, _57 Plans..._, recently mentioned in another >thread, page 43 details the type signal bridge as modeled by Bachmann >(in 1/4 in. scale, at least). For two, three, and four tracks, the >depth of the truss is 6 feet 0 inches. For five and six tracks, seven >feet 0 inches deep; for seven and eight tracks, eight feet 0 inches >deep. The width (thickness?) of the truss assembly parallel to the line >of track increases slightly (4 ft 6 in, 5 ft 0 in, and 6 ft 0 in, >respectively, and the spread of the leg assemblies widens as well. > >For two, three, and four tracks, the only dimension that changes is the >length of the bridge span across the right of way. Looks like a kitbash >would be as correct as the original model. BTW, the span dimension >between center lines of the bridge bents (legs) is 33 ft, 46 ft, and 59 >ft, for two, three, and four tracks. The drawing revision date is >December, 1917. > >What a book! > >Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: EMD Cab Units and Lift Rings From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 97 10:31:36 -0500 Content-Length: 683 The unasked question remains: Why did the PRR remain almost alone in using the lift rings? Why not lift the engines from the EMD-supplied lifting pads on the sides, like all other RRs? What was unique about PRR locos or shops that required these rings? regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 24 Dec 97 10:33:44 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: Signals and survey Content-Length: 4470 --====57495549545755525150===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Thanks to all who took the time to reply about these two types of model signal bridges. Apparently, my followup question about the IHC version crossed paths with other replies about it, but my questions were answered. Now I can proceed using both types (plus the IHC water bridge!) confident that PRR-aware folks won't point and laugh... This type of prompt, helpful response is why this list shouldn't be allowed to die. -- Doug Drew ------------- >Drew, > >At the risk of sounding big-headed and being flamed for it, I designed >the IHC signal bridge, with the help of a friend, when I used to work >for them some years back. It was based on using part of the tooling from >their water bridge. The bridge-work itself is PRR-design, though >perhaps somewhat simplified to keep the cost of the kit to a reasonable >retail price. > >The signal heads may be a bit oversized (sorry, can't remember for >sure), but I designed them to used the then popular size 3mm LED if >someone wanted to separately add operating lights, and still have the >proportional "feel" of correct size, both in relation to the signal >heads (target faces) and the overall kit. > >I'm told the Bachmann kit is also a PRR prototype design, but I can't >verify that. One thing I can say for sure after having spent time with >the AMTRAK folks in their office at 30th Street Station in Phila. doing >the research, that each signal bridge had it's own drawing because each >one was different from any other in some respect, no matter how small. >Therefore, it would be safe to say that either model could be used as-is >or modified as your model pike requires and still be correct. > >Charlie Fox --====57495549545755525150===1 From: Da72jmk Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 11:05:01 EST Subject: Re: More on Chinese engines Content-Length: 1040 The third one went (or at least was supposed to go) to the tourist railroad running over the Kinzua Viaduct in north western Pennsylvania--near Bradford, Kane, etc. I forget the name. John Keel In a message dated 97-12-24 08:46:45 EST, bungerj@eng1.otis.com writes: << There were three made in China late 80's or early 90's. One went to the Valley Railroad in Essex CT, one was to go to Delaware Ostego in New York State and I do not recall the other owner. Unfortunatly, the one bound for DO was aboard a freighter that sank. Essex finally sold theirs to DO. I think there was a write up in Trains back then..... >> ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Inter-railroad trains Date: Wed, 24 Dec 97 12:20:03 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1272 Was looking at the "Transcontinental Service" portion of Blardone & Tulip's "PRR Passenger Equipment Painting & Lettering" for Washington originating/destination trains that would have turned north at Baltimore and used the Northern Central line through York to Harrisburg. There are a few, but with the exception of The [Texas] Eagle, none used custom painted cars as most of the New York to "points west" trains did. Does anyone know of any others that took this route and had custom painted cars? Anyone know what power would have been on The Eagle? Or was it "typical passenger pool power" (K4, E7, etc.)? Was the motive power custom painted? (I don't think so.) --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 11:32:01 -0500 From: "Tom von Trott" Subject: Re: More on Chinese engines Content-Length: 2985 There where actually 4, 1 to Essex, one to the Knox and Kane, and the one for sus. that sank. These were all "Conrad" mikados, built to American boililer specifications, I can't remember the official designations, the "conrad" comes from the fellow from the essex museum that worked to get the first one imported. The 4th is at the Boone scenic, and is a different class. This one is not technically built to American standards, but can be run under the laws of the state of Iowa. I believe it is slightly larger the the conrad engines. Tom von Trott *********** REPLY PARTITION *********** On 12/23/97, at 4:58 PM, Bunger, James wrote: >There were three made in China late 80's or early 90's. One went to the >Valley Railroad in Essex CT, one was to go to Delaware Ostego in New >York State and I do not recall the other owner. Unfortunatly, the one >bound for DO was aboard a freighter that sank. Essex finally sold >theirs to DO. I think there was a write up in Trains back then..... > >Regards, > >James Bunger > ---------- >From: Charles Ring >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: More on engines >Date: Monday, December 22, 1997 8:09PM > >Robert A. Boyd wrote: >> >> >> And if (a big if)could a NEW locomotive be built from those plans? >say >> >> if some crazy millionare were to want one built or some scenerio >such >> >> as that...? >> > >> Well let's think about this for a second: if we are talking building a >> brand new locomotive from the rails up, why settle for a T1? Why not >do >> the Big Engine? > >What is the Big Engine? > >I've read and seen pictures of new American-style road-size steamers >being built in China only some ten years ago... I wonder if the >capacity to build them still exists there? > > ------------------------------------------------------------- >Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help >save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. > ------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help >save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 11:32:32 -0500 From: "Tom von Trott" Subject: Looking for a URL: 643 pics Content-Length: 934 During the 1997 williams grove steam show someone in the group took some shots of the 643 and crew running and then later posted them on the net. I went and copied the pics, and bookmarked the URL. Unfortunately due to a hard drive crash this fall I lost the pics, and the URL for the site that had them. I unfortuataly don't remember the name of the person who sent me the URL (I had his e-mail address bookmarked to, that was unfortunalty lost also) I would appricate it if this person would resend me the address. Tom von Trott ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 16:45:11 +0000 Subject: Locomotive facilities From: locoshop@juno.com (Jeremy C Helms) Content-Length: 1299 Hello all, Mr. Bruce Smith gave me a great idea of doing just the locomotive facilities for possibly a division point and I love the idea--after all my main interest is locomotives. I was wondering if any may know where I may be able to get DETAILED schematics for these facilities at Altoona, Enola, Renovo, or Johnstown? Any more that might be interesting? I am looking for things like copies of blueprints, turntable dimensions and style, coaling facilities, sanding and water towers, roundhouse, etc... I am open to any ideas. This idea should work well in a 10x12 spare room even in HO--there may have to be some unprototypical turns to stay within the dimensions of the room, but this is acceptable especially with a wide radius turn. Thanks for any and all help in this area. Have a very Merry Christmas. Jeremy Helms And remember Christ always comes first in Christmas! ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 16:51:39 +0000 Subject: Re: "PRR-Talk" subscribers From: locoshop@juno.com (Jeremy C Helms) Content-Length: 2542 Greetings all, I do not see my name on the list of those willing to do this, but count me in (I might not be able to afford it right away though--closing on house Jan. 30). I love PRR-Talk and Conrail-Talk and have gotten A LOT of useful info from them. I would also be willing to help out in ANY way possible. Jeremy Helms On Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:02:15 -0500 "s.a. mccall" writes: > >Greetings, > > Here is the list of those who said they would voluntarily submit >dues. >So far there are only 20, I may have missed a e-mail or so, if there >are >others who wish to join send in your name. > >Stephen Bartlett >Bill Knepper >s.a. mccall >Carl K Vogel >Greg Leary >Bunger, James >Hal6963 (doesn't sign a name) >ARR JERRY >Robert A. Boyd >George ierson >Doug Drew >Bob Zoeller >Stephen Bernas >JDPanza >Larry P. Morgan >Eichhorn >Rick Nelson >Da72jmk (doesn't sign a name) >H.Mummert > > Actually there are only 19 names, I am assuming Jerry will also >become a >member. From the last post it seems as if this group would only have >to >make up around $55.00/month. That would work out to >$2.75/month/member. >Round it off to $3.00/month/member and that would cover banking costs >for >an account. > There may be many at this time who are doing other things and are >not >reading this post. We should wait until the first week in January to >push >this issue. > To those who are not able to afford any cost, send in your names to >show >support for keeping PRR-Talk in operation. > > More later, after Christmas. > >Merry Christmas and a Prosperous New Year to All!!! > > > >Sincerely, > >S.A. McCall HOSAM >Franklin, Va. > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help > >save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 12:50:46 EST Subject: Re: Signals and survey Content-Length: 539 The IHC and Bachman bridges structural members are so over scale size it would be like using 6 x 12 wall studs instead of 2 x 4. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 12:27:27 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: details on FoM Content-Length: 3298 >Thanks, Bob! I'm writing from work, here, and I have seen relatively few >shots of the FOM scheme, and none in color. A failing memory often doesn't >serve well in this circumstance... Well, they say the memory is the second thing to go as you get older. >I'm waiting to see someone do a paint job of an FOM car, with that scale >1/8" black line on the outside of the 3/8" gold... what a fun masking >project THAT would be... In HO scale, a 1/8" stripe works out to .0014368", so I daresay it is not only a question of applying it, but also seeing it - - - We machinists use about $3000 worth of every delicate instrumentation to work with tolerances that small. >Did Rivarossi once do some of their streamline cars in FOM? Any idea of >how it came out? If I recall correctly, theirs was simply a tuscan red carbody with gold lettering. >By "heavyweight", I assume you mean equipment that was rebuilt, with air >conditioning, and the former clerestory roof ends faired so they would >"match" the streamline end profiles? This is technically what is known as a "Betterment" car - although there are some differing interpretations of that term. PRR had several 12-1s, 8-1-2s, 14 sections, some baggage-clubs and a few solarium obs that filled in the gaps in the early days of the FOM period. The solarium obs, in particular, had the rear end semi-rounded (a most distinctive treatment for a heavyweight car) and served on the Broadway for a while. They later went to secondary trains or served as protection equipment - which is probably why you hear of FOM equipment going to non-FOM trains in the 50s. >Did any heavyweight equipment with the more typical ends also have this scheme >applied? Was the FOM scheme ever applied to head-end cars (difficult to >believe), or strictly to passenger-carrying equipment? Yes, PRR also had some strictly heavyweight cars in FOM scheme, including: 12-1, 10-3, 7 dwgrm, 6 sbr-buffet-lng, parlor-buffet-lng and parlor, not to mention some P70fR coaches. As to head end, as I recall, the head end cars (60' RPO) for the Broadway were rebuilt PRR heavyweights which should technically classify as Betterment cars. I don't know of any purely heavyweight head end painted in FOM scheme, and I suspect most of the relatively few head end cars in FOM service were rebuilt. BTW: for those of you agonizing over applying all those striping decals: these cars were hand lettered - so imagine how the crew at Pullman must have felt about the legendary Raymond Loewy! A merry Christmas to all, may you all get a train set! Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963 Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 15:24:00 EST Subject: Steam Locomotive Photos Content-Length: 600 Seeking sources of "As Built" photographs for the following PRR steam locomotives. B6, B6sa, F27s, any H class, and L1s. Thanks in advance for the help. Harold Lines South (The Florida Trains) ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: C&BT answers From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 97 17:00:25 -0500 Content-Length: 1067 Many thanx to those who gave me a rapid answer. C&BT DOES have a web page (accessible through the NMRA page links). They DO make a car correct in all details of side panels (10), roof (diagonal panel), and ends (4-3-1) for the PRR X43s. They do make it in both 8'doors (X43c) and 7'doors (all other X43s). The offer it only in Shadow keystone; cat nos. 13201 (X43), 13202 (X43b), 13301 and 13302(X43c). They also make both cars in undec. This will be my choice since I want circle keystone and will want several numbers. I'll talk to my dealer about ordering several for me ASAP. You've made my Xmas merry. May yours be too. regards, Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 19:05:14 -0500 From: Charles Ring Subject: Re: More on Chinese engines Content-Length: 3197 Doug Drew wrote: > > >I've read and seen pictures of new American-style road-size steamers > >being built in China only some ten years ago... I wonder if the > >capacity to build them still exists there? > > The *capacity*, yes. but China has ceased production of new steam > locomotives. If you have the opportunity (and can afford it), I > strongly recommend traveling to that country to witness the world's > last big-time steam operation (auto travel outside of cities is > virtually non-existent), while it is still running. I recently saw a > slide show presented by a person who had recently been there, and > China's steam operations are indeed impressive, even if the > locomotives do have red stars on their driver hubs. However, diesels > and now electrification are encroaching, surprisingly quickly. > Naturally, coal mining areas will be the last stronghold of steam > locomotives. > China was the last country building them new. They still have the > massive equipment in place to form the boilers, turn drivers, forge > axles and the like (though, given that it's China, a lot of work that > was mechanized in this country may have been done with hand labor) as > they still have to backshop their huge fleet of steam. Perhaps a bee > should be put in Strasburg or Steamtown's bonnet about making > arrangements to obtain some of that equipment before it, too, is gone. > Thanks for the verification; I was starting to wonder if I had dreamed the info on China's steamers. It's most unlikely I'll be able to go there to see them. > >> Well let's think about this for a second: if we are talking > building a > >> brand new locomotive from the rails up, why settle for a T1? Why > not > >do > >> the Big Engine? > > I realize this is Rotisserie-League locomotive building, but the Big > Engine would not be a good choice, given its long fixed wheelbase > which limited its utility to lines with ample curvature -- the Fort > Wayne between Crestline and Chicago, mostly. The T-1's, over-powered > and therefore slippery as they were, were at least able to run on the > curves on the Pittsburgh division. I think the Big Engine was mainly > to "wow" everybody at the 1939-40 World's Fair. > Then it would have been seen by my mother who was at that World's Fair. Her father (Frank Munhollon) was an engineer on the PRR, and she (Eunice) later became a PRR clerk in Cleveland. She met my father, a yardmaster at Niles (OH), via the railroad telephone system. Thus I am really a child of the PRR. I wish I could find the pictures of me at age 3 or so, standing next to a steam loco holding a big oil can. This was in the mid-fifties. I also have a memory, but no pictures, of a yard full of steam locos waiting to be scrapped. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 18:45:21 -0600 From: Bob Webber Subject: Cab unit lift rings Content-Length: 1641 Other F units with lift rings: Some AT&SF passenger F7s & F9s, SP F7s, Amtrak Fs from those two roads. Other E-units with rings: CRIP E3 & E7 One observation: The PRR, ATSF & SP all had large locomotive facilities where they build & did heavy repairs on their steam locomotives. In a typical steam facility of this type, you had to have massive overhead cranes that could lift a steam locomotive (or at least the superstructure). The cab units were built such that their shell was part of the frame - or, put another way, the shell was structural rather than simply a housing (as road switcher bodies are). So the only real reason you would want lift rings on the cab units would be to lift the entire unit - and not many railroads had shops to perform that function. Which gets us back to those steam facilities. The overhead cranese could lift the unit to another part of the shop. Most railroads performed all the work on run through tracks. A large scale steam-building facility did not have runthrough tracks for all work bays. The cranes lifted the boilers (or whole locomotives) to these other bays. That could be the reason not all railroads had them. and the ones above (plus, of course the PRR) did. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 19:10:55 -0600 From: Bob Webber Subject: Heresy Content-Length: 4028 I was just looking through an old Railroad & Railfan at an article concerning the N&W Js. What does that have to do with the PRR? Well, as most of you know, the PRR did try out a J as a possible substitute for Ks & Ms. In fact, the statement that a J reached 110 mph on a slight upgrade with 15 cars and over 5000 (drawbar) horsepower can be made due to those tests - that run was near Crestline. So what? Well, to stir the pot on the virtual locomotive thread, and to opine that a T1 or S1 or even a J1 (which of the three makes the most sense to me) should be considered (especially if it were to be considered for a real rebuilding as per the original thread concerning the British Pacific effort) just is being unrealistic and nonsensical. First, the only really successful locomotive of the three was the J1a, and that would hardly be a real usuable locomotive in todays world. Remember a prime reason for rebuilding the Pacific is to use it on railfan trips (I know rebuilding in this case is a misnomer). So on that basis which PRR locomotive makes sense? You could say a K4 or an M1 maybe a L1 or even a G5. Outside of that, no steam that the P company had would make sense for a good railfan loco (considering that all mainline track in the Northeast would be its running area). There are some K4s, an M, an L and a G around - but would they make a good railfan loco? The only one of the whole bunch that fits that description might be the M1. The rest simply do not have the power to handle the long trains that are required to make an economical trip. Let's face it - when it came to modern steam, the PRR made some poor decisions. The only one that really worked out was the J1 - and that was really someone elses choo choo - and they were forced into that. I personally think that had the Ts and Qs been given time and care they could have turned into world beaters - but only for the western lines. The P company would never think of a Hudson given that types recognition with the NYC. So even while a Hudson could take a train singlely and the K4s had to be double headed, they didn't look to far. But, as I say the did look at the J. What modern locomotive, for mainline steam, can truely supercede a J? It ccan go where the Challenger fears to tread, and the 844 is no match for the J - nor is the Dayylight, the 614, the S1, the ATSF 4-8-4 (although that's the closest), the SP&S 4-8-4 or the numerous Bershires out there. None comes close to the drawbar horsepower (except the ATSF 4-8-4), or the all roller bearing, mechanically lubed, low maintenance (for a steam locomotive) piece of work the N&W put out. Why the PRR didn't go to a company they owned part of, I'll never know. By the time they really tested it, it was perhaps too late. My point in all this? Well as long as you are going to create a virtual locomotive, create a J in PRR livery. Then, once the NS & CSX deboning of Conrail is over, take the J back out of the museum, clean her up, change the livery and run her on some of the mainline that is thrown out as redundant. I for one would love to see her run on good mainline trackage, with some straight running and large curves. What a show! As good as the PRR was at times, they really stunk when it came to steam power after the twenties. Non stoker K4s (even the K5?)? 500+ I1s? K4s in the 30s? Duplexi when you need a modern, low maintenance solution - now? The only thing they really did right was the J1. Now, I'll but on my asbestos undies, I'm sure flames are heading this way!! Bob Webber ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 21:25:45 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Keystones Content-Length: 991 It would be great to have a brief summary of the keystone logo appearance over the years and the painting schemes for the cars as well. Cars were often not painted again for 10, 20 or sometimes even 30 years, but knowing when the logo and paint scheme was first applied would be beneficial for a novice modeler like myself. I have a 1939 era layout. I am just beginning to research freight cars of the 1930's. This could become a FAQ, or possibly a photo page. Merry Chirstmas to all. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS/PRRT&HS ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: EMD Cab Units and Lift Rings Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 21:34:40 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 1873 On 24 Dec, "s.a. mccall" wrote: > I looked thru about a dozen books and other publications, cannot find any > other roads that had those lift rings on the nose of EMD cab units. My > research leads me to beleive the lift rings were added by the roads as all > the as delivered pics do not show them. I dug through "E units" by Henry Maywald, a source containing several obvious errors, and found a few other E units with nose rings: MILW E-9am 38A (1977). Andrew Toppan's E unit list shows this unit now at the National RR Museum, and that this is its original number, even though it's late enough to be a PRR hand-me-down. RI E3A 626, 19 Feb 1966. RI E8 652, 11 June 1978, in Bicentennial paint. RI E7 642, 17 Aug 1968 and 14 June 1974. RI E Units with adjacent numbers show no lift rings. Alaska E9A 2402, 16 Sep 1983. NJT E8A 4305, 15 Nov 1986. Except for the NJT unit (which I would bet is an ex-PRR unit), there's no history information on any of these units. > What were these lift rings used for? Why didn't other roads use them? Well, lifting, I suppose, in shops or at wreck sites. Maybe other roads had different cranes in the erecting shops (WAG alert). > Were there lift rings on the rear as well? Need some enlightment on > this....... Dunno, but a pair of rear lift rings that look just like the ones on MBTA coaches comes in the litle baggie with the front versions in N scale. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 22:04:19 EST Subject: Re: "PRR-Talk" subscribers Content-Length: 622 Hey there, Sam, , the e-mail's been runningm slow or I didn't post it on PRR-Talk. You can count me in as a future PRR-Talk/K.C. subscriber.even if Jerry's found a couple of angels. Tom Vondruska aka LINESWEST@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Continuation, EMD cab unit lift rings Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 22:08:06 -0500 Content-Length: 1576 Andy has a good point about the choice made to use these rings or brackets. What made the PRR insist on having these on practically every EMD cab unit? (does anyone have proof of a PRR purchased-new EMD cab without them?) The PRR was not alone, although they seem to be the most consistent user of the lift rings. i.e. GN F unit 317A had lift rings GN F unit 363C had NO lift rings GN F unit 369C had lift rings MILW E8, 37C had lift rings Amtrak F's 105, 110 had lift rings (I do not know the parentage) Whatever else the PRR lifted, (and they had every flavor diesel) They lifted with conventional lift hooks and pads on the frames. CR's ex PRR Juniata Shops still lift diesels for CR and other contract work everyday with conventional sling points. Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 -----Original Message----- From: Andrew S. Miller The unasked question remains: Why did the PRR remain almost alone in using the lift rings? Why not lift the engines from the EMD-supplied lifting pads on the sides, like all other RRs? What was unique about PRR locos or shops that required these rings? ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 22:17:02 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: The end of "Keystone Crossings" and "PRR-Talk"? Content-Length: 2195 On Tue, 23 Dec 1997, Rob Schoenberg wrote: > To which Jerry responded (off list I think): > >Most ISP's will not allow running a listserv on their machine due to the > >heavy load and upkeep. If they do, I know they'll charge more. > > So I sent an e-mail to my ISP and he said: > >From: The Internet Nexus WWW Master > >To: Rob Schoenberg > >Subject: Re: Question about mailing lists... > > > >No costs, if its a non-profit mailing list. > > > >Let me know what the name of the list is, and if you want me to include > >any info text when people subscribe to it. > > Jerry also responded to Steve B with: > >Not that simple. A dial up account gets assigned a random IP address > >every time you call in. In order to be a listserv, you need a dedicated > >IP account, so the number remains constant. Call your ISP and find out > >what that will cost you!!!! This isn't really an issue... have mailing list mail delivered into a POP account, and have something on the dialing-in machine pick it up and feed it to the list exploder... but anyhow > I'm not quite sure I understand you here, I'm wouldn't be running the listserver, > my ISP already runs one. He has the dedicated server and all the joys of running it. The > lists would just be processed through his program. All I'd have to do is > deal with the subscription list... Why would I (or Steve) need a static IP > for that? (BTW I checked my ISP and it's only $10 a month...) Feh. I said it once, I'll say it again. Free. I run the software. I own the machines. Zip zero zilch nada and I'll be providing a backup mail host on a seperate network by the end of January. (Distributed mailing list software should be interesting) -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 23:05:07 EST Subject: E-R Models Content-Length: 1344 In the January 98 issue of 'Railmodel Journal' in the "What's New--In HO" section, there is a photo showing a Southern Pacific FP7 and a PENNSY SHARKNOSE. The blurb below the photo states: "E-R Models is now importing upgraded Roco FP7 diesels with DCC-ready wiring. The models will be available with Soo, Southern, Amtrak, BN, B&O, Pennsylvania, ATSF and SP lettering. The "Sharknose" will appear this summer". Anyone have any experience with E-R Models or Roco and care to comment on them? The photos aren't very large but, from what I can see they don't look too bad. This issue also contains an article on 'Spline Benchwork' and includes a segment on 'Creating Superelevated Curves'.....a prior topic on 'Talk'. After just glancing at the Spline Benchwork..... it's nice to look at but, talk about over engineering! I'd never want to cover it up after spending that much time and effort constructing it. George ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 23:45:34 -0500 From: "Tom von Trott" Subject: Re: Heresy Content-Length: 6952 Why flame you? We all have our favorite locos, I would love to see a T1 built, but only because I'm a PRR history nut. In such a tread I'm just dreaming, I'd love to see a J1, a T1, all lost PRR steamers. It's fun to talk about such theoretical things (which is run reason this list must go on, I support any efforts, as long as I can afford it), You are sure right about the J1, it was the best of the bunch. The only class of PRR steam loco built in the 40's to survive to the end of steam. In fact, if a true building effort were ever to somehow get off the ground to construct a new T1 I would support getting all of the best steam minds together from around the world to try to solve the slipping and other misc problems with the loco. In essence you would no be building a T1, but in PRR speak a T1a. As to your statement about the N&W J, you are correct, the were the best of it's kind. I was lucky enough to have had 2 chances to ride behind 611, incredable machine. I'm glad I had a chance to do it before she left us after this last resurection. Until she comes back again (I think she will, she is a special machine that refuses to die, just looking at her makes steam buffs want to fire her up!) that will have to be enough. But of the locos you compared in some cases you were comparing apples and oranges. Many of them were designed for mixed service (the UP FEF's, the Cotton Belt locos, the AT&SF etc) The Berks were of course built for fast freight, it is hard to compare them to a J. The closest in my mind are the GS-4 daylights, and even they had mixed services roots, (the GS stands for General Service, not Golden State as some think) The J was such a fantastic loco because she was one of the only locos of her day to be truly designed for passenger service, and nothing else. Not that the J were without faults, their high center of gravity would have caused problems on the PRR, but I think the T1 should have been dropped and they should have shamelessly copied the J's for the next gen of passenger power. Heck, they owned most of N&W's stock, I don't think it would have been a problem. Hum, I wonder what a J would have looked like in a Lowey shark nosed skirt? :) Tom von Trott PS I'm a motive power freak, maybe we can keep this thread of more technical steam discussion going for a couple of days? *********** REPLY PARTITION *********** On 12/24/97, at 7:10 PM, Bob Webber wrote: >I was just looking through an old Railroad & Railfan at an article >concerning the N&W Js. What does that have to do with the PRR? Well, as >most of you know, the PRR did try out a J as a possible substitute for Ks & >Ms. In fact, the statement that a J reached 110 mph on a slight upgrade >with 15 cars and over 5000 (drawbar) horsepower can be made due to those >tests - that run was near Crestline. > >So what? Well, to stir the pot on the virtual locomotive thread, and to >opine that a T1 or S1 or even a J1 (which of the three makes the most sense >to me) should be considered (especially if it were to be considered for a >real rebuilding as per the original thread concerning the British Pacific >effort) just is being unrealistic and nonsensical. First, the only really >successful locomotive of the three was the J1a, and that would hardly be a >real usuable locomotive in todays world. Remember a prime reason for >rebuilding the Pacific is to use it on railfan trips (I know rebuilding in >this case is a misnomer). So on that basis which PRR locomotive makes sense? > >You could say a K4 or an M1 maybe a L1 or even a G5. Outside of that, no >steam that the P company had would make sense for a good railfan loco >(considering that all mainline track in the Northeast would be its running >area). > >There are some K4s, an M, an L and a G around - but would they make a good >railfan loco? The only one of the whole bunch that fits that description >might be the M1. The rest simply do not have the power to handle the long >trains that are required to make an economical trip. > >Let's face it - when it came to modern steam, the PRR made some poor >decisions. The only one that really worked out was the J1 - and that was >really someone elses choo choo - and they were forced into that. I >personally think that had the Ts and Qs been given time and care they could >have turned into world beaters - but only for the western lines. The P >company would never think of a Hudson given that types recognition with the >NYC. So even while a Hudson could take a train singlely and the K4s had to >be double headed, they didn't look to far. But, as I say the did look at >the J. > >What modern locomotive, for mainline steam, can truely supercede a J? It >ccan go where the Challenger fears to tread, and the 844 is no match for >the J - nor is the Dayylight, the 614, the S1, the ATSF 4-8-4 (although >that's the closest), the SP&S 4-8-4 or the numerous Bershires out there. >None comes close to the drawbar horsepower (except the ATSF 4-8-4), or the >all roller bearing, mechanically lubed, low maintenance (for a steam >locomotive) piece of work the N&W put out. Why the PRR didn't go to a >company they owned part of, I'll never know. By the time they really >tested it, it was perhaps too late. > >My point in all this? Well as long as you are going to create a virtual >locomotive, create a J in PRR livery. Then, once the NS & CSX deboning of >Conrail is over, take the J back out of the museum, clean her up, change >the livery and run her on some of the mainline that is thrown out as >redundant. I for one would love to see her run on good mainline trackage, >with some straight running and large curves. What a show! > >As good as the PRR was at times, they really stunk when it came to steam >power after the twenties. Non stoker K4s (even the K5?)? 500+ I1s? K4s >in the 30s? Duplexi when you need a modern, low maintenance solution - >now? The only thing they really did right was the J1. > >Now, I'll but on my asbestos undies, I'm sure flames are heading this way!! > >Bob Webber > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help >save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 23:49:25 -0500 From: "Tom von Trott" Subject: Re: More on Chinese engines Content-Length: 4087 We don't need a millionare to build us a T1, what we need is one to buy the entire contents of the Chinese factory and move it over here. Then we can build anything we want, a T1, J1, a NYC Hudson, a Niagra, a Miliwakee Atlantic........ Tom von Trott Please my the gods of the PRR not kill me for wanting to build a Hudson :) *********** REPLY PARTITION *********** On 12/24/97, at 7:05 PM, Charles Ring wrote: >Doug Drew wrote: >> >> >I've read and seen pictures of new American-style road-size steamers >> >being built in China only some ten years ago... I wonder if the >> >capacity to build them still exists there? >> >> The *capacity*, yes. but China has ceased production of new steam >> locomotives. If you have the opportunity (and can afford it), I >> strongly recommend traveling to that country to witness the world's >> last big-time steam operation (auto travel outside of cities is >> virtually non-existent), while it is still running. I recently saw a >> slide show presented by a person who had recently been there, and >> China's steam operations are indeed impressive, even if the >> locomotives do have red stars on their driver hubs. However, diesels >> and now electrification are encroaching, surprisingly quickly. >> Naturally, coal mining areas will be the last stronghold of steam >> locomotives. >> China was the last country building them new. They still have the >> massive equipment in place to form the boilers, turn drivers, forge >> axles and the like (though, given that it's China, a lot of work that >> was mechanized in this country may have been done with hand labor) as >> they still have to backshop their huge fleet of steam. Perhaps a bee >> should be put in Strasburg or Steamtown's bonnet about making >> arrangements to obtain some of that equipment before it, too, is gone. >> > >Thanks for the verification; I was starting to wonder if I had dreamed >the info on China's steamers. It's most unlikely I'll be able to go >there to see them. > >> >> Well let's think about this for a second: if we are talking >> building a >> >> brand new locomotive from the rails up, why settle for a T1? Why >> not >> >do >> >> the Big Engine? >> >> I realize this is Rotisserie-League locomotive building, but the Big >> Engine would not be a good choice, given its long fixed wheelbase >> which limited its utility to lines with ample curvature -- the Fort >> Wayne between Crestline and Chicago, mostly. The T-1's, over-powered >> and therefore slippery as they were, were at least able to run on the >> curves on the Pittsburgh division. I think the Big Engine was mainly >> to "wow" everybody at the 1939-40 World's Fair. >> > >Then it would have been seen by my mother who was at that World's Fair. >Her father (Frank Munhollon) was an engineer on the PRR, and she >(Eunice) later became a PRR clerk in Cleveland. She met my father, a >yardmaster at Niles (OH), via the railroad telephone system. Thus I am >really a child of the PRR. > >I wish I could find the pictures of me at age 3 or so, standing next to >a steam loco holding a big oil can. This was in the mid-fifties. I also >have a memory, but no pictures, of a yard full of steam locos waiting to >be scrapped. > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help >save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 23:50:16 EST Subject: Re: Locomotive facilities Content-Length: 1086 Jeremy, Don't forget the Panhandle's massive Grogan Yard in and arounf Columbus Union Station on the northern edge downtown Columbus. It had a nearly circular roundhouse as part of its full compliment of shops and service facilities. a coach yard as well as a classification yard. It was the stepping off point for the Sandusky branch coal drags heading north to the automatic loader on Sandusky Bay.headed by 2-10-4 J1s or 2-10-2 N2s; K4s and T1s pulling New York- St. Louis varnish. Unfortunately unlike Conway, Sam Rea or Renovo, Grogan is gone, now lying beneath Columbus' Hyat Regency, its convention center and Interstate 670, Columbus' inner belt. Tom Vondruska ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: Looking for a URL: 643 pics Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 00:13:50 -0500 Content-Length: 1798 Merry Christmas Tom, The site that you are looking for is:www.internexus.net/robs/PRR/photos/643back.jpg (internexus.net/robs/PRR ) will get you to the page.....then go down to Williamsgrove. Bill Knepper Northern Central Chapter PRRT&HS (boxcar46@nfdc.net) ---------- > From: Tom von Trott > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Looking for a URL: 643 pics > Date: Wednesday, December 24, 1997 11:32 AM > > During the 1997 williams grove steam show someone in the group took some shots of the 643 and crew running and then later posted them on the net. I went and copied the pics, and bookmarked the URL. Unfortunately due to a hard drive crash this fall I lost the pics, and the URL for the site that had them. I unfortuataly don't remember the name of the person who sent me the URL (I had his e-mail address bookmarked to, that was unfortunalty lost also) I would appricate it if this person would resend me the address. > > Tom von Trott > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help > save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: Heresy Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 00:30:02 -0500 Content-Length: 5019 Merry Christmas.... No Flames, We have the ability to run Double Headed K4's and a M1........IN PRR ! Or the C&O 614, or the J, or the "A" (now thats an engine) See everyone has a different veiw........I'm still an SPF ! Bill Knepper Northern Central Chapter PRRT&HS ---------- > From: Bob Webber > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Heresy > Date: Wednesday, December 24, 1997 8:10 PM > > I was just looking through an old Railroad & Railfan at an article > concerning the N&W Js. What does that have to do with the PRR? Well, as > most of you know, the PRR did try out a J as a possible substitute for Ks & > Ms. In fact, the statement that a J reached 110 mph on a slight upgrade > with 15 cars and over 5000 (drawbar) horsepower can be made due to those > tests - that run was near Crestline. > > So what? Well, to stir the pot on the virtual locomotive thread, and to > opine that a T1 or S1 or even a J1 (which of the three makes the most sense > to me) should be considered (especially if it were to be considered for a > real rebuilding as per the original thread concerning the British Pacific > effort) just is being unrealistic and nonsensical. First, the only really > successful locomotive of the three was the J1a, and that would hardly be a > real usuable locomotive in todays world. Remember a prime reason for > rebuilding the Pacific is to use it on railfan trips (I know rebuilding in > this case is a misnomer). So on that basis which PRR locomotive makes sense? > > You could say a K4 or an M1 maybe a L1 or even a G5. Outside of that, no > steam that the P company had would make sense for a good railfan loco > (considering that all mainline track in the Northeast would be its running > area). > > There are some K4s, an M, an L and a G around - but would they make a good > railfan loco? The only one of the whole bunch that fits that description > might be the M1. The rest simply do not have the power to handle the long > trains that are required to make an economical trip. > > Let's face it - when it came to modern steam, the PRR made some poor > decisions. The only one that really worked out was the J1 - and that was > really someone elses choo choo - and they were forced into that. I > personally think that had the Ts and Qs been given time and care they could > have turned into world beaters - but only for the western lines. The P > company would never think of a Hudson given that types recognition with the > NYC. So even while a Hudson could take a train singlely and the K4s had to > be double headed, they didn't look to far. But, as I say the did look at > the J. > > What modern locomotive, for mainline steam, can truely supercede a J? It > ccan go where the Challenger fears to tread, and the 844 is no match for > the J - nor is the Dayylight, the 614, the S1, the ATSF 4-8-4 (although > that's the closest), the SP&S 4-8-4 or the numerous Bershires out there. > None comes close to the drawbar horsepower (except the ATSF 4-8-4), or the > all roller bearing, mechanically lubed, low maintenance (for a steam > locomotive) piece of work the N&W put out. Why the PRR didn't go to a > company they owned part of, I'll never know. By the time they really > tested it, it was perhaps too late. > > My point in all this? Well as long as you are going to create a virtual > locomotive, create a J in PRR livery. Then, once the NS & CSX deboning of > Conrail is over, take the J back out of the museum, clean her up, change > the livery and run her on some of the mainline that is thrown out as > redundant. I for one would love to see her run on good mainline trackage, > with some straight running and large curves. What a show! > > As good as the PRR was at times, they really stunk when it came to steam > power after the twenties. Non stoker K4s (even the K5?)? 500+ I1s? K4s > in the 30s? Duplexi when you need a modern, low maintenance solution - > now? The only thing they really did right was the J1. > > Now, I'll but on my asbestos undies, I'm sure flames are heading this way!! > > Bob Webber > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help > save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: firming up on cyber-PRR Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 00:32:29 -0500 Content-Length: 2885 Merry Christmas Bob, BINGO ! Bill Knepper ---------- > From: Robert A. Boyd > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: firming up on cyber-PRR > Date: Tuesday, December 23, 1997 1:22 PM > > Jerry writes: > > >Over the past 12 hours, there have been numerous posts to the list and to > >me direct about the possibility of "subscription fees" for continuing the > >operation of "PRR-Talk". > > > >It would only be appropriate that such support be tendered via the > >prospective "cyber chapter". Whether or not this chapter ever attains > >official chaptership, we could at least operate as a cyber group in > >support of PRR modeling. Modeling seems to be the main interest of the > >cyber proposal, followed closely by more support for Lines West. > > ===== > > Seems like we are all in agreement on the desirability of a cyber-PRR group > (hopefully affiliated with the PRRHTS) and on having it subsidize PRR-Talk. > > At this point, I think we should look seriously at getting out of the station. > > * we will need to incorporate and/or get the corporate blessings of PRRHTS > > * we need to define what officers we need and elect a set > > * we need to define dues, set up a bank account and post for formal memberships > > * we need to define what this cyber-PRR will do (beyond foaming). > Particularly we need to define how PRR-Talk and KC will relate to the > cyber-PRR (will they be official functions?) > > Time to p--- or get off the pot. > > "I Move that we establish a cyber organization dedicated to PRR history, > preservation AND modeling with full consideration to both Lines East AND > Lines West, and that this organization be affilitated with the PRRHTS." > > All in favor? > > > Robert A. Boyd > Those Classic Trains > "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." > > ========================================================== > > "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com > The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help > save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Re: Cyber Chapter Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 09:52:23 -0500 Content-Length: 3000 Merry Christmas to All ! Regarding S.A. McCalls comments; I for one want to see the group survive in ANY form! Whether or not we try to become a cyber-chapter is not really important in the end, but I will say that as a member of PRR T&HS already, and not being able to attend meetings, I wouldn't mind. We could form a totally seperate entity though, especially since most of the PRR-Talk forum is centered around modeling the PRR. In either case, I do agree with others in that the list really should remain free, and the access to archival type material should be available to "subscribers", dues paying if need be. Joe Zappa ---------- > From: s.a. mccall > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Cyber Chapter > Date: Tuesday, December 23, 1997 3:45 PM > > > Greetings, > > I am all in favor of forming a group to ensure the continuation of > "PRR-Talk", but cannot see any advantage in affilliating with the PRRT&HS. > Would someone out there explain to me the advantages of becoming the Cyber > Chapter of the PRRT&HS. > I feel that the continued exchange of information and ideas which have > come forth on "PRR-Talk" have been of value to me. Having never been a > member of the PRRT&HS and not planning to join, it holds no value for me. > I am some distance from the locations of the Societys meetings/conventions > etc so attending them is not a probability. > I enjoy the anonymity of cyber space, it allows one to send and receive > information without the biases of our civilization. One never knows the > age, sex, race, religon or any other fact which is not revealed by the > writer. One simply accepts the e-mail as is without prejudice. Since > there is no interpersonal intercourse, corrections seem to come easier and > without confrontation. I have found e-mail on the PRR-Talk to be most > courteous as opposed to chat groups. > There must be a great number of lurkers out there who will read this and > not reply. Well why not? Speak up and let your feelings be known!!!!!!!!! > Thanks for the time......... > > > > Sincerely, > > S.A. McCall HOSAM > Franklin, Va. > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help > save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don R. Millbranth" Subject: HAPPY HOLIDAYS Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 09:14:52 -0600 Content-Length: 521 HAPPY HOLIDAYS to one and all on the PRR-Talk list... Thank you for sharing your wealth of information.. don MP 414.5 ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Heresy, not really. Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 10:25:41 -0500 Content-Length: 2046 The N&W tried out a T1 and found her wanting. In the hollows of West Virginia, the 80,000lbs TA of a "J" make the 70 inch drive wheels make sense. Yet because of the excellent design work a "J" could pick up her skirt and RUN! Even the AT&SF placed larger drivers on their 5000 class 2-10-4's (once leased by the PRR) There are not many places that you could run a large steam locomotive any more with heavy axle loadings. As far as building new, I think it a nice day dream at best. In order to help pay for operations on main line excursions, you have to be able to pack them in to get the ticket sales needed. Even the K4s 1361 will not handle large enough single trains to make long trips monetarily sustaining. Short repetitive trips make more sense. I wonder how the physical plant would be on supporting the M1b at the Strasburg museum? In the days of the PRR, they were not allowed south of Baltimore. I am sure that there are other problems not faced then with just trackage realignment being one of them. A big problem now is IF the money were found where can someone play with their new toy? Anybody noticed the fate of some fine restoration jobs by societies who cannot support their engines operation or find a willing major railroad company offering to put up with a restored 65 year old steam locomotive on their Stock Holders money-earning-rails. Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 -----Original Message----- From: Bob Webber To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, December 24, 1997 10:56 PM Subject: Heresy ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Funding Update Date: Thu, 25 Dec 97 11:34:23 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1114 I have now gotten an e-mail commitment from a second commercial source for sponsorship of "KC" and "PRR-Talk". With 2/3 of the requisite funding covered...the crisis is over. No need for a merger with the NYC!!! I have added a link to my main page with info about commercial sponsorship and voluntary donations. I will no longer discuss "contracted" financial support from a "cyber chapter" or moving "KC" or the lists to another site. Merry Christmas to all, and to all a Good Night! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 10:41:29 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Signals and survey Content-Length: 745 On the subject of the "oversized" NJ Custom Brass signals, if anyone has HO NJ PRR dwarf signals they don't want, they are great for O scale, even if still possibly a little large. If you don't want them, please let me know, on or off list and maybe we can work out a transaction. (The so-called O signals are REAL monsters). Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 17:10:18 +0000 Subject: Pitcairn question From: locoshop@juno.com (Jeremy C Helms) Content-Length: 1024 Hello all and merry Christmas, I have a question that I am really looking for some answers on. In the book Triumph 1 on page 326 there is a picture of the roundhouse and turntable. It looks like there is actually 2 (two) turntables in there, is this correct? The date in the caption says 1922, is that correct? Does anyone know if there actually were 2 turntables how long both were in place right next to each other? It is a VERY interesting arrangement. Were both turntables of the 110' length or not? This would be an interesting thing to model is why I ask. Thanks for all help in advance. Jeremy Helms ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 12:33:32 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: E-R Models Content-Length: 1322 On Wed, 24 Dec 1997, Eichhorn wrote: > Anyone have any experience with E-R Models > or Roco and care to comment on them? The > photos aren't very large but, from what I can > see they don't look too bad. The shells, at least, of the FP7 and shark have been being produced by Roco for years. The Shark was most recently imported by/through Model Power, albeit with a Pennsy paint scheme which was incorrect. The FP7 is the same as the Atlas FP7 from several years back. Presumably they'll have new or upgraded power chassis for these, and I'm told to expect the shark to have a correct paint scheme. E-R Models has imported Trident vehicles and done "original" paint schemes on them (my father has some) and the Frateschi FA-1 from Brazil in a dozen or so paint schemes, including PRR, and a New Haven scheme some people swoon over. Merry Christmas (to those of you who celebrate it, anyhow) -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GLD 828 Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 13:02:33 EST Subject: Pennsy Calenders Content-Length: 604 Hi all, I'm looking for a few Pennsy calenders from Weekend Chief I'm looking for years 89, 95 & 96 If anyone has these and are willing to let go of them Please e-mail $ and condition Thanks again Glen ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 17:07:26 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Re: Heresy Content-Length: 1104 At 07:10 PM 12/24/97 -0600, you wrote: >I was just looking through an old Railroad & Railfan at an article >concerning the N&W Js. What does that have to do with the PRR? Well, as >most of you know, the PRR did try out a J as a possible substitute for Ks & >Ms. In fact, the statement that a J reached 110 mph on a slight upgrade >with 15 cars and over 5000 (drawbar) horsepower can be made due to those >tests - that run was near Crestline. Greetings, What a great idea, being a fan of the "J's". Paint it Brunswick Green, put 5 stripes on the walkway panel with a circle keystone. Now that would be an engine to reckon with............. Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: Looking for a URL: 643 pics Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 20:06:21 -0500 Content-Length: 2259 This message was sent at 12:13am Christmas morning.......Did you ever get it ..... I never saw it come in .....anyway I hope this is what you wanted ! Bill 8:05pm 12/25/97 ---------- > From: Bill Knepper > To: Tom von Trott ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: Looking for a URL: 643 pics > Date: Thursday, December 25, 1997 12:13 AM > > Merry Christmas Tom, > > The site that you are looking for > is:www.internexus.net/robs/PRR/photos/643back.jpg > (internexus.net/robs/PRR ) will get you to the page.....then go down to > Williamsgrove. > > Bill Knepper > Northern Central Chapter > PRRT&HS > (boxcar46@nfdc.net) > > ---------- > > From: Tom von Trott > > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > > Subject: Looking for a URL: 643 pics > > Date: Wednesday, December 24, 1997 11:32 AM > > > > During the 1997 williams grove steam show someone in the group took some > shots of the 643 and crew running and then later posted them on the net. I > went and copied the pics, and bookmarked the URL. Unfortunately due to a > hard drive crash this fall I lost the pics, and the URL for the site that > had them. I unfortuataly don't remember the name of the person who sent me > the URL (I had his e-mail address bookmarked to, that was unfortunalty lost > also) I would appricate it if this person would resend me the address. > > > > Tom von Trott > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help > > save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 20:45:18 -0500 From: "Dave 'Fresh' Freshwater" Subject: Re: Solutions: plan of action Content-Length: 2600 LINESWEST wrote: > > To all, first a happy holiday to you and yours, Merry Christmas, Happy > Chaunakkah, Pleasant Kanzaa and a Fruitful New Year, > > IIs quite clear that a concensus is emerging for solidifying the online > community that's grown up around K.C. and PRR-Talk into a permanent > organization. It is time, therefore, for some concrete steps to be taken. > > First, I suggest we take a breather to enjoy the holidays with our > families. Then, sometime next week a move should be amde to form a committee > which would draft a statement of nmission and purpose for a proposed PRR > modelers' organization, roughly outlien activities in which the organization > would participate and the perquisites of memebership. > Once geneeral agreement is reached on what the organization will do, a > consensus should be reached on an organizational structure and to nominate > officers and board members to fill the various positions. Once the leadership > is agreed upon,other deatils such as dues structure, meeting and events > schedule, publicity shouild begin falling into place. > I have not set a timeline for any of this other than the first step so > those involved can make decisions based upon their own needs. > > Tom Vondruska > I second the motion. I am sure that I am one of a number of people who are merely lurking on the sidelines of the ongoing threads, waiting to see a concrete set of proposals. Unfortunately, we've got so much message traffic flying around on this that I'm beginning to do block deletes of messages, based solely on the subject line, because I don't have the time to read them all. For that reason, S.A. McCall isn't going to have my name on a list of people willing to send in dues (although he probably will after this.) It's clear from the messages that there is likely sufficient interest and support among the members of this list. Unfortunately, I don't have the time available to help organize things. But I will gladly support those who have the time and abilities to do that. I think I'll go play with my Christmas loot. Happy Holidays! Dave Freshwater North Potomac, MD ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 20:58:57 EST Subject: Re: Solutions: plan of action Content-Length: 1076 Hey Sam, This is part of an e-mail I just recieved. I've got another name for the subscribers' list: For that reason, S.A. McCall isn't going to have my name on a list of people willing to send in dues (although he probably will after this.) >>"....It's clear from the messages that there is likely sufficient interest and support among the members of this list. Unfortunately, I don't have the time available to help organize things. But I will gladly support those who have the time and abilities to do that. >>"I think I'll go play with my Christmas loot." >>Happy Holidays! >>Dave Freshwater >>North Potomac, MD >>dfresh20@erols.com<< Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 20:01:07 -0600 From: Bob Webber Subject: Re: Heresy Content-Length: 3918 I really brought up the Cotton Belt, AT&SF, UP, SP&S, SP, RDG, MILW & C&O 4-8-4s and the Bershires as examples of other locomotives that are good for railfan service. The only means of comparison in this case is tractive effort, tracking ability and road ability. Certainly you can't really make a great comparison based on their "real" work for their original railroads. I just mentioned those 4-8-4s still in steam - but the closest in ability to a N&W J is a (gasp) NYC S or a PRR T1. A lot closer in horsepower, but not in their leauge in tractive effort or for the NYC) looks (but then I do like the PRR best of all the Northeast roads). It's interesting that the Js were pure passenger engines - they had one of the smallest drivers for a 4-8-4. They would have made terrific fast freight locos. I love T1s (and Qs) but I just can't see them in railfan service due to wheelbase problems. The high center of gravity on the Js was a constant problem on the N&W - there was a saying that not one of them didn't end up on their back in the river. But then again, most of the PRR main (and other Northeast east-west mains) are a lot straighter than the Blueridge trackage. I think that a T1a would be a terrific loco. I'm sure that something could have been done to cure the slipping and other problems. When they were running they (along with the Qs) just were not given the chance they deserved. The PRR had been very good at creating locomotives and testing and tinkering with them prior to building lots of follow ons. They needed something fast and couldn't/wouldn't take the time to get it right. Another reason to have bit the bullet (so to speak) and copy the Js and As. In a lot of ways, the PRR of the post 20s reminds me of IBM in the 60s-80s. A huge company that used to stand for inovation in their main product, but now they just improve their current inventory without pushing the envelope. You can see the result: 100s of K4s after most other roads had found something better (part of the problem was that the K4s were so good - but then so was a System 360), I1s built long after other railroads had passed them by, attempting to hand fire the K5s, and continuing with the M1s after superpower had started on other railroads. Not that any of those locomotives were bad - or even bad for the railroad at that time - but certainly for the future of the railroad they were the wrong moves. And don't get me wrong - there's nothing like a brace of K4s to get the blood pumping, or the looks of those huge Hippos or Lolipops at the front of drags and time freights. I love the looks of PRR steam. Just think though if the PRR had built As instead of Qs and Js instead of Ts. Or had looked at "super power" berks or Texans when the last of the Ms were built, or even had looked at articulateds like the WP & D&RGW 2-8-8-2s (scaled down to fit of course) instead of the Is. Would the PRR have survived the war better? Would they have pursued these options knowing that they would have to cut payroll due to better efficiency (don't laugh - the PRR took a lot of pride in keeping people working, and almost acted like a welfare state at times)? Could the PRR have gone through these building programs while pusuing the electrification projects? Its these questions and what-ifs that make the hobby much more interesting to me - because to answer those questions you have to look at the history of the PRR - and other roads. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 21:27:09 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: lift rings Content-Length: 1133 Hello folks... I've been studying the diesel pictures in "Pennsy Power II"and have noticed the following... E-7a and E-8a EMD locomotives did'nt have nose lift rings as New. these must have been added later. E-7b s did. Some F-3a and F-7a EMD units did'nt have them as New.but some did.F-3b&F-7b did..No rings on any type of hood units. The rings on the Rear of any EMD cab type unit were there as NEW. There were similar rings on the Rear of other makes of cab type units.. I.E. Baldwin sharks,centipedes,Alco FA and PA units,FM C liners. I saw no photos of Baldwin passenger sharks with them though on the nose. just an observation. H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 23:46:24 EST Subject: Lift Rings in General Content-Length: 612 Why didn't the PRR order all of their cab units with these lift rings? Was there something about the EMD's that required them to be lifted in a different manner than all of the rest? Just wondering. George ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 23:48:04 EST Subject: Hump Control Question Content-Length: 580 What exactly is the function of a 'hump control' as it applies to a locomotive? I'm having one of those....the more you read...the less you know, kind of days. Thanks, George ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 08:39:01 +0000 Subject: Steamer questions From: locoshop@juno.com (Jeremy C Helms) Content-Length: 1763 Hello all, I have some questions about PRR steam locomotives. First off though, thanks for all the suggestions about what to do for a layout. I tried working with CadRail to design a larger engine terminal but it did not really fit. So I have decided to go with an adaptation on the plan for the V&O in a bedroom that is found in Model Railroad Planning 1996 on pgs. 46-49. It would be run as a branch of the PRR somewhere in the Appalachians in Pennsylvania. It will allow for the running of a couple of different eras with only a few locomotives from each era and a couple building changes. The main era I am shooting for would be during the early throws of World War 2. This would allow me to run those beloved steamers. As the layout sits, nothing smaller that an H class consolidation would be used and it has 27" minimum curves. Sorry about going off on a tangent but here are the questions. When did the PRR use the Futura lettering on the steam locomotives (start and end)? When did PRR start to modernize their steamers with the cast pilot and relocation of the headlight/generator? I am also looking for anyone who has worked with Bowser steam locomotive kits, the layout will have LOTS of those and I was wondering about re-powering and making the kits run smoothly. Thanks for all you help in advance. Jeremy Helms ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 10:35:11 +0000 Subject: Re: firming up on cyber-PRR From: locoshop@juno.com (Jeremy C Helms) Content-Length: 1439 I (count me in), I am also a member of PRRT&HS. Jeremy Helms On Fri, 26 Dec 97 08:14:27 -0500 asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) writes: > >"I Move that we establish a cyber organization dedicated to PRR >history, >preservation AND modeling with full consideration to both Lines East >AND >Lines West, and that this organization be affilitated with the >PRRHTS." > >All in favor? > > >Robert A. Boyd >Those Classic Trains >"Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." > >========================================================== >- ------ > > >Aye > > >Andy Miller > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help > >save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: firming up on cyber-PRR From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 97 08:14:27 -0500 Content-Length: 840 "I Move that we establish a cyber organization dedicated to PRR history, preservation AND modeling with full consideration to both Lines East AND Lines West, and that this organization be affilitated with the PRRHTS." All in favor? Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== - ------ Aye Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: "PRR-Talk" subscribers From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 97 08:53:42 -0500 Content-Length: 2469 Sorry, I had not responded because I was blowing away most of this thread until a conclusion had been reached and was therefore unawarte that a poll had been taken. You can count on my $2-3 per month if thats what it takes. However, I gather that the issue may have been OBE'd since Jerry has found new sponsors. regards and Happy New Year, Andy Miller >Greetings, > > Here is the list of those who said they would voluntarily submit dues. >So far there are only 20, I may have missed a e-mail or so, if there are >others who wish to join send in your name. > >Stephen Bartlett >Bill Knepper >s.a. mccall >Carl K Vogel >Greg Leary >Bunger, James >Hal6963 (doesn't sign a name) >ARR JERRY >Robert A. Boyd >George ierson >Doug Drew >Bob Zoeller >Stephen Bernas >JDPanza >Larry P. Morgan >Eichhorn >Rick Nelson >Da72jmk (doesn't sign a name) >H.Mummert > > Actually there are only 19 names, I am assuming Jerry will also become a >member. From the last post it seems as if this group would only have to >make up around $55.00/month. That would work out to $2.75/month/member. >Round it off to $3.00/month/member and that would cover banking costs for >an account. > There may be many at this time who are doing other things and are not >reading this post. We should wait until the first week in January to push >this issue. > To those who are not able to afford any cost, send in your names to show >support for keeping PRR-Talk in operation. > > More later, after Christmas. > >Merry Christmas and a Prosperous New Year to All!!! > > > >Sincerely, > >S.A. McCall HOSAM >Franklin, Va. > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help >save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: What did Santa bring you? Date: Fri, 26 Dec 97 10:15:53 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1748 Hope everyone had a good holiday. The listserv enjoyed the break and is finally almost caught up from the very heavy use lately. Received a new (used) computer which I hope to use to spread the load to increase performance. Anyway, Santa brought me a Bowser N5C "Northern Region" that the Keystone Model Railroad Historical Society modified to represent an inter-region pool car (yellow copula). Also got a Bachmann Spectrum Doodlebug. We've previously discussed these and I know the exhaust stacks are wrong for the Pennsy. Other than that, is it reasonably close? How many doodlebug classes were there, and what were the classes? Which one does the Spectrum most closely represent? My father bought my two-month-old son a K-Line Limited Edition (#K-1622) O/O-27 "Liberty Limited" set. By virtue of scale and limited edition status, I'm sure it will be worth something someday. Some notes: The dual A power is Alco , the cars are have the Congressional/Senator paint scheme , and one of the cars has a vista dome . Oh well, so much for the prototype! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: Cyber Chapter From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 97 09:19:24 -0500 Content-Length: 1342 s.a. mccall wrote (in part): >Greetings, > > I am all in favor of forming a group to ensure the continuation of >"PRR-Talk", but cannot see any advantage in affilliating with the PRRT&HS. >Would someone out there explain to me the advantages of becoming the Cyber >Chapter of the PRRT&HS. - --------- The answer to that is short and easy, THE KEYSTONE. It is an excellent magazine, and my collection of them is now my primary PRR research reference. Over the years they have published fotos and plans and produced articles on every imaginable subject. I have become far more of an accurate modeller since studying those magazines (and conversing with the cognizeni on PRR-Talk). I can't begin to count the number of scratch building projects and kit-bashes they have inspired - to say nothing of all the AHM and Athearn cars I've dumped. Join it - read it - and have a happy new year regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: Inter-railroad trains From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 97 09:37:12 -0500 Content-Length: 2405 Jerry, The TEXAS EAGLE was a MoPac train. It was one of the trains which connected with the PRR's PENN TEXAS at StLouis. The other connecting train was the MKT-Frisco TEXAS SPECIAL. Not only did the PRR paint cars to match these trains for through service to points in Texas, but the connecting roads also provided pool cars. So while the specially painted PRR cars may have been reserved for New York service (I was unaware of that until your post) the MP, MKT, and Frisco cars would ceratinly have periodically appeared on the Washington section of the PENN TEXAS. See my foto (on KC) of JAMES BOWIE, an MKT 14-4 built from a USP kit. Its typical. regards Andy Miller >Was looking at the "Transcontinental Service" portion of Blardone & >Tulip's "PRR Passenger Equipment Painting & Lettering" for Washington >originating/destination trains that would have turned north at Baltimore >and used the Northern Central line through York to Harrisburg. > >There are a few, but with the exception of The [Texas] Eagle, none used >custom painted cars as most of the New York to "points west" trains did. >Does anyone know of any others that took this route and had custom >painted cars? > >Anyone know what power would have been on The Eagle? Or was it "typical >passenger pool power" (K4, E7, etc.)? > >Was the motive power custom painted? (I don't think so.) > >--------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com >Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com >Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help >save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 10:53:42 EST Subject: Re: Keystones Content-Length: 634 Larry: For freight car lettering info 1876 to 1968 order a copy of the summer 1988 Keystone from the PRRT&HS. McGuire has written the deifinitive article on this subject. It was published in this issue of the Keystone. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Any towers left in Chicago? (fwd) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 11:08:39 EST Content-Length: 670 > I just got back on this list, and am curious of any existing towers in > Chicago. Can anybody help? Steve Long Steve, lots, to be brief. THE definitive tower reference is Jon Roma's page on this topic: see http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/roma/towers.html -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: A Solution? (LONG) (fwd) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 11:22:23 EST Content-Length: 2344 Jim wjhudson@erols.com wrote: > Jerry, I certainly would be willing to contribute my share. PRR-Talk, > especially, is a useful resource since it is something with which most of us > interact DAILY. How many other publications or organizations provide daily > information? Fifteen to twenty dollars a year is a bargain! Just tell me > where to send the check. Clearly a couple of bucks apiece would do it for this portion of the responsibilities of a "Cyber" chapter ... or for a totally disconnected (from the PRRTHS) bunch of people. If it's to be PRRTHS, I would see the Chapter leasing time&materials from Jerry at some reasonable cost. Jerry could and should be a member himself -- I see no conflict of interest there. > I agree the KC could be a password-protected site. Here I disagree, on 3 counts. 1) KC is a personal web site and has no sponsorship. Therefore PRRTHS-Cyber would have no right or obligation to the site. Jerry is free, of course, to password-protect whatever of his own stuff he wants (but see below). 2) Several PRR web sites exist, one PRRTHS-National, the remainder personal. I am all for creating a PRRTHS-Cyber web site but feel it should be separate from Jerry's, mine, and the others. I would entertain motions to _combine_ the various personal web sites into a PRRTHS-Cyber web site, however. But y'all may recall the mildly contentious notion of even creating a common _index_, let alone a common site. I will not put this out for discussion again, but rather will let someone else tackle it. 3) I am _against_, as a general rule, the password-protecting of information. I see that as counterproductive in the long run. I also have philosophical problems with password-protecting stuff that is often available elsewhere in unprotected form (e.g. original PRR documents). -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 11:22:56 -0500 From: Jerry Jordak Subject: PRSL Content-Length: 1148 Hi all, First of all, hope you all had a wonderful Christmas! Secondly, are there any web sites or good books about PRR subsidiary Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines? I've been trying to dig up some info on the PRSL lately, looking at possibly doing some railfanning out that way, along with some historical study. Also, did PRSL have separate timetables through the PRR and PC era, or were those lines included in PRR and/or RDG timetables? Thanx, -Jer -- Jerry W. Jordak The boxcars and flatbeds, whistle blowin' steam mailto:jer@smellycat.com That was yesterday http://prozac.cwru.edu/jer/ Now those big trains don't come anymore Acts 16:31 <>< -- Restless Heart, "Big Iron Horses" ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 11:44:29 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Cyber Chapter Content-Length: 2418 Greetings, I don't feel as if the magazine, The Keystone is enough of an inducement to join the PRRT&HS. My primary interest is in diesels and cabooses. Steam and rolling stock are not my priorities. I would prefer to buy books and discuss paint schemes pertaining to diesels, with a lesser interest in cabooses. Am attaching the current list of potential subscribers to "PRR-Talk". If some want to also affiliate with the PRRT&HS, where will that leave those of us who enjoy the "PRR-Talk" but do not want to join the PRRT&HS? There are about 30 or so on the list now who wanted to see "PRR-Talk" continue. I did not ask the question about becoming a chapter of PRRT&HS. Someone else will have to carry that ball. In any event it seems as if "PRR-Talk" will be able to continue for now without any finiancial help from the group. Maybe a Cyber Chapter could be formed by others who have said they could host such a group. I would like to see "PRR-Talk remain as is and not become a part of another group. Here is the current list of finiancial aid donors Doug Drew "Bob Zoeller" "s.a. mccall" Stephen Bernas JDPanza "Larry P. Morgan" "Brian Brandt" "Liberty" "Bill Nixon" Tom Vondruska LINESWEST Jerry Shickler George Eichhorn Rick Nelson John Keel Da72jmk "Bunger, James" H.Mummert bubbles@mail.visi.net "Eric J. Minton" locoshop@juno.com (Jeremy C Helms) Roger Elliott "W. Jim Hudson" Arne Wangen asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) "R. Vogel" Awaiting the next move............ Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: "PRR-Talk" subscribers (fwd) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 11:56:56 EST Content-Length: 1178 > Here is the list of those who said they would voluntarily submit dues. > So far there are only 20, I may have missed a e-mail or so, if there are > others who wish to join send in your name. I will as well. Now, about a PRRTHS chapter. We agreed that someone with somewhat longer standing in PRRTHS should put the issue forth. I volunteered. I now need a list of names of potential members. I don't have any 'internet voting' software, so please simply send me a _brief_ email stating: 1) name 2) address 3) email address 4) PRRTHS member or not I will print out and present at the next PRRTHS meeting. I am not sure what the rules are on chapter vs. national membership, i.e., must one be a member of national to be a member of a chapter? -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: What did Santa bring you? From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 97 12:04:21 -0500 Content-Length: 1393 Jerry B wrote (in part): Anyway, Santa brought me a Bowser N5C "Northern Region" that the Keystone Model Railroad Historical Society modified to represent an inter-region pool car (yellow copula). Also got a Bachmann Spectrum Doodlebug. We've previously discussed these and I know the exhaust stacks are wrong for the Pennsy. Other than that, is it reasonably close? - ------ Sorry Jer, The Bachman car is a fine model of an EMD gas-electric. To the best of my knowledge,the PRR only had Brill and McKeen cars. Time to start your own freelance short line connecting with the PRR/NC and providing twice daily service with a gas-electric (EMD) pulling a box car or two. I now know why my wife and son refuse to buy me model RR stuff for gifts. They know how fussy I am and are terrified of doing something wrong. I got a RR video from Readers Digest and an imitation antique key box with a picture of aa train on it. Happy New Year anyway :-( Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Keystones (fwd) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 12:08:30 EST Content-Length: 1092 Larry Morgan > It would be great to have a brief summary of the keystone logo > appearance over the years and the painting schemes for the cars as well. > Cars were often not painted again for 10, 20 or sometimes even 30 years, > but knowing when the logo and paint scheme was first applied would be > beneficial for a novice modeler like myself. > I have a 1939 era layout. I am just beginning to research freight cars > of the 1930's. > This could become a FAQ, or possibly a photo page. Larry, PRRTHS-Phila. did this as part of a display in Mar 1996, part of the 150-yr celebrations, during the banquet in 30th St Station. Philly chapter would be the best resource. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: PRSL (fwd) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 12:38:14 EST Content-Length: 1036 > Secondly, are there any web sites or good books about PRR subsidiary > Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines? I've been trying to dig up some > info on the PRSL lately, looking at possibly doing some railfanning > out that way, along with some historical study. Jerry, I have lots of maps of PRSL scanned in. John Cooper has not gotten to editing them yet but will soon. So track charts will be available. As to books, there's a book on the West Jersey & Seashore specifically, along with (or maybe the same book I'm thinking of?) one called "To the Boardwalk" or "To the Seashore" ... sorry, my copy's at home. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: more questions Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 12:51:41 EST Content-Length: 559 A few more questions have been posted to http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Questions/new.html and 1-2 more will go in by the end of the day. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 13:45:11 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: A motion Content-Length: 769 Greetings, "I move that we establish a cyber organization dedicated to the entire Pennsylvania Railroad with an aim toward the dissemination of well researched information via e-mail for accurate modeling during the period 1846 to 1968. The primary means of exchange for this information will be "PRR-Talk". Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AJSNGS Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 13:53:29 EST Subject: Baggage and Tool Checks Content-Length: 502 I am interested in purchasing PRR brass baggage and tool checks. I also have checks available for trade. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: Cyber Chapter From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 97 14:09:55 -0500 Content-Length: 2170 Andy, am about to start to buy locos & cars in earnest. What's the best source for PRR stuff in HO scale? - -- Mark Bej - ------- Mark, I think I've discussed the passenger cars with you at length, so I'll restrict myself to freight cars for the moment. During the "transition era" the PRR was dominated by the following classes of cars. Also shown is the HO plastic version,if reasonably accurate (my definition of reasonable). Almost everything is available in resin or brass: Box cars X26 unavailable X26b Tichy (I know, I know - its 6" to low) X29 Red Caboose X29b&d supposedly comming from C&BT X31/X32 Bowser X37 unavailable (could be kitbashed from Intermountain 10 IH AAR car) X43 C&BT (beware, they have lots of cars they call X42. Stick to the ones with 4-3-1- end, diagonal panel roofs, 10 panel sides, and 7 or 8' doors) (Anyone care to chime in with the 50' box cars. I haven't researched them yet) Hoppers GL unavailable GLA unavailable - can be KB'd from USRA 55t such as Accurail or a shortened Bowser H21 H21 Bowser H25 unavailable H31 Athearn Gondolas (I'm guessing at the classes here. I forget them off hand) G22 unavailable G26(65') Eastern Car Works G27(52') KB'd from Concor G31(65') unavailable G32(52') unavailable Covered Hoppers H30 unavailable H32 unavailable H34 Eastern Car Works(?) All other car types are insignificant in numbers. Resin kits are available for the X37, G22, H30, and H32 and probably lots of others. Hope this helps. I am posting it to the PRR list in hopes of shortly adding to your(and my) body of knowledge. Happy New Year Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 15:03:21 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: N6 cabin cars Content-Length: 1164 > The KEYSTONE issue 1989 summer vol 22, # 2 has just what you are looking > for.... > There is a color shot of the newly restored N6b at Lancaster, Pa. station ( > were it still sits today with a GG1. Also all the info on how, why, what > materials used, etc. > is in the article. > Hello all . . . John Smith and I were the authors of that article, based on the experience ( more particularly his, as project chairman ) of the Harrisburg Chapter of NRHS restoring N6b 980016. The car is now on display at the (ahem) Harrisburg (not Lancaster) Amtrak station. Having crawled up on the roof during the project, I can assure you that there was no sheet metal except that used on the smoke jack (chimney). Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net John 1:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 14:44:03 -0600 From: Bob Webber Subject: Re: Heresy, not really. Content-Length: 1329 At 10:25 AM 12/25/97 -0500, you wrote: >The N&W tried out a T1 and found her wanting. >In the hollows of West Virginia, the 80,000lbs >TA of a "J" make the 70 inch drive wheels make >sense. Yet because of the excellent design work >a "J" could pick up her skirt and RUN! Even the >AT&SF placed larger drivers on their 5000 class >2-10-4's (once leased by the PRR) > >There are not many places that you could run >a large steam locomotive any more with >heavy axle loadings. As far as building new, >I think it a nice day dream at best. > One thing to remember is that in the 40s and 50s, track was built for steam and passengers - the gauge was a little wider on curves and there was more superelevation. Which explains some of the problems some of the restored steam has had in frogs and curves. More than a few of todays trains would be scattered on the ballast due to the superelevation and widened gauge. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 17:01:11 EST Subject: Re: Some more questions Content-Length: 1360 Rich, I guess I'm going to have to get over to Columbus and start doing some digging about Grogran. A couple of years ago a guy at a local train meet was selling photocopies of the insuraanbce map of Grogran for $1.50 a pop was was doing a very quick business in them. Grogran, even though its was in the heart of a majlor city appears to be comparable in size with Renovo, the only other major Pennsy yard I've seen a map that shows a comparable level of detail. In and arouind Columbus its not unusall to see an aerial shot of the nearly circular Grogan roundhouse. one of two at the facility, iif my shaky meory serves me right. I don't know if you read my post about Fort Wayne, but that'd be another interesting project. Of course,one of the reason I chooseto model Line Wet of Columbus is because the T1 was used more out here because the its notorious sklipping was not as great of a problem whe the line was level. Tom V ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 18:43:11 EST Subject: Re: Signals and survey Content-Length: 934 House of Duddy has some O scale PRR dwarf signals. How accurately are they scaled? John Keel In a message dated 97-12-26 18:40:57 EST, sbartlet@capecod.net writes: << On the subject of the "oversized" NJ Custom Brass signals, if anyone has HO NJ PRR dwarf signals they don't want, they are great for O scale, even if still possibly a little large. If you don't want them, please let me know, on or off list and maybe we can work out a transaction. (The so-called O signals are REAL monsters). Steve Bartlett >> ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 18:59:10 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Plans and trains Content-Length: 979 Hello folks... Ok...when some concrete plans are made and we start to really vote on what were gonna do...let me know...i'm in favor of almost anything. As for a PRR northern...one engine that hasn't been mentioned is the great northern northerns. and they HAD belpaires!...LOL if we could find a millionare..(where are you Bill Gates) FIRST he buys a railroad...then move on from there..LOL I think hump control was some sorta special throttle control for slow speed hump work..very slow speed.. H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: I95BERNIEW Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 21:16:30 EST Subject: Re: PRSL Content-Length: 1256 In a message dated 97-12-26 12:16:18 EST, you write: << Secondly, are there any web sites or good books about PRR subsidiary Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines? I've been trying to dig up some info on the PRSL lately, looking at possibly doing some railfanning out that way, along with some historical stud >> I believe the book in question is "The Trains to America's Playground" subtitled "Along the Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines to Atlantic City 1933-1976." As the subtitle suggests, the focus of the book is on the line from Camden to Atlantic City. I received a copy for Christmas and it has forty-eight pages with a lot of black and white photos that provide a good overview of the line. It was published in 1988 by the West Jersey Chapter of the National Railway Historical Society. Hope this helps. Bernie Wagenblast ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 21:41:38 EST Subject: Re: PRSL Content-Length: 1996 In a message dated 97-12-26 12:16:18 EST, jer@smellycat.com writes: >are there any web sites or good books about PRR subsidiary >Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines? "By Rail to the Boardwalk", by R.M.Gladulich, is a complete history of the PRSL, with lots of good pictures and maps. Dunno if it's still in print. Gladulich died several years ago. Publisher is Trans-Anglo Books, P.O. Box 6444, Glendale, CA 91205 >Also, did PRSL have separate timetables through the PRR and PC era, or >were those lines included in PRR and/or RDG timetables? >From at least 1946 to the 1960's, PRSL was included in timetable books which represented PRR's Atlantic Division/District. The cover bore the names of both railroads and the respective officials of both. When PRR went to the 3-region timetable arrangement, the Atlantic District lines went into the Eastern Region book, but the PRSL was not included. This arrangement started sometime in the early 1960's. The inclusion of Atlantic District/omission of PRSL trackage continued into the PC era, with the only reference to PRSL being the passenger train schedules on the PRR between 30th Street and Jersey (first tower on the NJ side of the Delaware). Remember that, up until 1976, the Reading was still an independent carrier and maintained its share interest in the PRSL all through the trials and tribulations of PC. I would guess that PRSL had its own timetable book from the early 60's through 1976, but I have not seen one. After 1976, what remained of PRSL became part of Conrail. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 20:55:57 -0600 From: ajc5150@net66.com Subject: Re: What did Santa bring you? Content-Length: 1068 Jerry wrote: > > Hope everyone had a good holiday. My family has given up on giving me model railroad stuff, but I have one uncle who has worked out a solution. He frequents railreoad collectible shows. This year I got a medallion about 1 1/2" in diameter. It appears to be brass and on the front of it it has a red keystone with the words Pennsylvania System written in it. On the outer edge of the front it has the words "Southwestern Region Championship 1922". On the back it says "1st Place - Volleyball". I thought it was pretty interesting that the PRR had regional sports championships back in 1922. Happy Holidays Everyone!! Andy C. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 20:56:11 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: doodlebugs Content-Length: 2046 Jerry writes: >Also got a Bachmann Spectrum Doodlebug. We've previously discussed these >and I know the exhaust stacks are wrong for the Pennsy. Other than that, >is it reasonably close? > >How many doodlebug classes were there, and what were the classes? Which >one does the Spectrum most closely represent? ===== Actually, there were about as many classes of doodlebugs as there were doodlebugs; they were built in one-of-a-kinds and small batches pretty much to the individual roads taste. I happen to know that the PRR had a couple of Brill cars: one was a Mod. 660 double ender, I don't know the specifics about the others. I haven't seen them, but from what I have heard about the Bachmann doodlebug, it doesn't represent any particular prototype. As a rule of thumb, you can identify the two major builders of doodlebugs thus: EMC had a low roof with a radiator grille in the front (Mod. 120) or windows in front and radiator boxes on the cab roof (Mod. 146, 148). The exhaust stacks were a pair of cone shapes on top of an oval metal base. They were built in 75' and 80' lengths. BRILL had a high turtle roof with recessed radiators in fan mounts similar to the later E units. They were also built in 75' and 80' lengths, but tended to look more massive than the EMCs. The exhaust stacks were taller individual units. Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 22:50:44 -0500 From: "Vagel C. Keller" Subject: Re: What did Santa bring you? Content-Length: 1663 At 10:15 AM 12/26/97 -0400, Jerry wrote: > ... got a Bachmann Spectrum Doodlebug. We've previously discussed these >and I know the exhaust stacks are wrong for the Pennsy. Other than that, >is it reasonably close? > >How many doodlebug classes were there, and what were the classes? Which >one does the Spectrum most closely represent? > Jerry, Check out _Pennsy Power III_ for that info. I'm too lazy to check my copy right now (can't reach it from here), but I _think_ the Bachman thingy is PDC to a small class of Pullman-built motor cars. HAP-pee New Year, Vagel Vagel Keller Pittsburgh, PA vagelk@usaor.net THE INDUSTRIAL HERITAGE HOMEPAGE http://www.usaor.net/users/vagelk _||_||_ || || || || || ||\ || || || || ||_||\\ /\_||__||__||__||_/\ \\ // \\ o x o x o x o . . . \/ \ \\ o _____ | | / \ >][_n_n_|HH] /====___ ________ ________ (_______|__]_[_______]_|\____/| |\____/| _/o OOOO o` oo oo 'oo oo' 'oo oo' ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 23:48:05 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Hump Control Question Content-Length: 1417 Eichhorn wrote: > > What exactly is the function of a 'hump > control' as it applies to a locomotive? > I'm having one of those....the more you > read...the less you know, kind of days. > George, It allows setting the power output of the locomotive in between what is obtained by the throttle notches, so a constant speed can be maintained shoving cars over the crest of the hump. I thought I had something on it in a locomotive operating book, but have come up blank on finding a reference. I think it simply adjusted the shunt field excitation of the main generator. BTW, "crest" applied to the top of the hump was one of the first "politically correct" terms I can remember. First heard it applied to SP's Englewood Yard in Houston in the '50s. "Humping" cars had a reputation for continually damaging lading, and the new automated yard controls (switches and retarders) were supposed to eliminate such damage. A new name for the process was considered necessary. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRSL From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 00:28:38 EST Content-Length: 3037 I hope this helps. 1. Gladulich, Richard M., "BY RAIL TO THE BOARDWALK", Trans-Anglo Books, Glendale, CA 1986 ISBN 0-87046--076-5 2. Cook, W. George and Coxey, William J.,"ATLANTIC CITY RAILROAD, The Royal Route to the Sea", West Jersey Chapter, NHRS, Oaklyn, NJ 1980 LC 77-79997 3. Kramer, Fredrick A., "PENNSYLVANIA - READING SEASHORE LINES, an illustrated history of South Jersey's jointly owned railroad", Crusader Press, Ambler, PA, 1980, ISBN 0-937156-02-7 4. Coxey, William J., ed. "WEST JERSEY RAILS",West Jersey Chapter, NHRS, Oaklyn, NJ 1983 [2 vlumes 5. Middleton, William D., "WHEN STEAM RAILROADS ELECTRIFIED", Kalmbach, Milwaukee, WI, 1974 [ the chapters on early experiments, the PRR Electrification(s) and suburban services. 6. Hilton, George W., "AMERICAN NARROW GUAGE RAILROADS", Stanford University Press, Stanford, CA, 1994 [Part II, Individual Common Carriers, New Jersey] PRSL maintained a separate identity until absorbed by CR and published its own TTs [both public and employee]. I'm familiar with the territory so I can try to answer more questions you may have. M.E. Allen ______________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com Management Services Telephone 609-683-0356 On Fri, 26 Dec 1997 11:22:56 -0500 Jerry Jordak writes: >Hi all, > >First of all, hope you all had a wonderful Christmas! > >Secondly, are there any web sites or good books about PRR subsidiary >Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines? I've been trying to dig up some >info on the PRSL lately, looking at possibly doing some railfanning >out that way, along with some historical study. > >Also, did PRSL have separate timetables through the PRR and PC era, or >were those lines included in PRR and/or RDG timetables? > >Thanx, >-Jer > >-- >Jerry W. Jordak The boxcars and flatbeds, whistle >blowin' steam >mailto:jer@smellycat.com That was yesterday >http://prozac.cwru.edu/jer/ Now those big trains don't come anymore >Acts 16:31 <>< -- Restless Heart, "Big Iron Horses" > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help > >save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > --------- End forwarded message ---------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 01:09:25 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Half "G" Content-Length: 1349 >I saw the half-G in Wilmington and took photos of it back in May 1982. >It has (had ?) a snow blower built into what had been the middle of the >body and small bay windows added so the engineer could "drive" it >backwards. the nose end was still the same and had the only coupler. >It was obviously used to clear snow from yard tracks, but also saw duty, >as I was told at the time, as a switcher. Since there were dozens of >G's on the dead line awaiting the scrap torch :-( maybe it was used to >move them around. ===== I wonder if anyone would have the nerve to model this. It ought to generate howls of outrage among the True Believers of Lines East! Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 10:36:48 +0000 Subject: Re: PRSL From: locoshop@juno.com (Jeremy C Helms) Content-Length: 665 Hello all, I had thought that Morning Sun had produced a book on the PRSL. I believe it is either out or is soon to be published. I could be wrong though since this is not an area of great interest to me. Let me know if this is correct though. Jeremy Helms ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963 Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 07:35:42 EST Subject: Re: A motion Content-Length: 1748 I support this motion, however in reviewing recent E-Mails on this subject there appears to be several interests working here: 1. A cyber organization focused on a continued free exchange of information about the PRR with no affiliation and using PRR-Talk as the vehicle of communication, or maybe no organization at all but just a continuation as is which is really Jerry's call. 2. An organization as in 1 above organized as a Chapter of the PRRT&HS including maintenance of the PRRT&HS Web Page. 3. An HO and/or N scale modular club dedicated to modeling the PRR in both the eastern theater of operations and Lines West and maybe even the Florida Trains. The idea of coming together say twice a year at the PRRT&HS Annual Meeting and perhaps at Railfest in Altoona in October is very intriguing. Perhaps the Museum at Altoona could provide space for this or maybe the Railroad Museum of PA would be interested in hosting an annual weekend exhibit. Perhaps all of these interests could be accommodated under the same umbrella by "Classes of Membership" In any event we perhaps should consider some arrangement that assures the continuation of PRR-Talk. Commercial sponcers come and go but a regular group of subscribers would provide a more stable base for continuation of PRR Talk. Harold McGee Gainesville, FL ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963 Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 08:00:52 EST Subject: The Florida Trains Content-Length: 837 On page 58 of Don Ball's book The PRR 1940s - 1950s are two photos of a Tuscan GG1 pulling the Seaboard Airlines Silver Meteor south to Florida. I know about the PRR affiliation with the Atlantic Coast Line but am unfamiliar with the Seaboard affiliation, does anyone have info on this? This train apparently originated in Penn Station. I do know the PRR had some ownership in both the ACL and the SAL. Harold McGee Gainesville, FL ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 08:19:20 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: PRR's "Texas Eagle" Content-Length: 1859 At 12:20 PM 12/24/97 -0400, you wrote: >Was looking at the "Transcontinental Service" portion of Blardone & >Tulip's "PRR Passenger Equipment Painting & Lettering" for Washington >originating/destination trains that would have turned north at Baltimore >and used the Northern Central line through York to Harrisburg. > >There are a few, but with the exception of The [Texas] Eagle, none used >custom painted cars as most of the New York to "points west" trains did. >Does anyone know of any others that took this route and had custom >painted cars? Greetings, According to the ads PRR used green(DGLE)engines, red(tuscan)cars on the Texas Eagle from New York-Washington-St. Louis. Same for the St. Louisian, Spirit of St.Louis and the Jeffersonian. All ran from New York-Washington-St.Louis. From New York to Harrisburg the engines were electric, west of Baltimore & Harrisburg they were diesel. Don't know about steam days. I would suspect that in St. Louis passengers etc were transferred to other trains operated by other roads such as MoPac. The PRR "Texas Eagle" would then return to New York with the same consist. > >Anyone know what power would have been on The Eagle? Or was it "typical >passenger pool power" (K4, E7, etc.)? The only pic I could find showed an E7. Don't know about steam. > >Was the motive power custom painted? (I don't think so.) Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 09:12:18 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: Cyber Chapter & PRRT&HS Affiliation Content-Length: 4212 Hello HOSAM! Let me try to address your points from my perspective in Indianapolis. s.a. mccall wrote: > > Greetings, > > I am all in favor of forming a group to ensure the continuation of > "PRR-Talk", but cannot see any advantage in affilliating with the > PRRT&HS. > Would someone out there explain to me the advantages of becoming the > Cyber > Chapter of the PRRT&HS. I see two main advantages. The quarterly mailing (The Keystone) has great articles and information. After joining the PRRT&HS and receiving this for a year, I am not ready to give it up. My best guess is you will find it just as useful. The second advantage is the large archive of original information which could POSSIBLY be made available to us as a chapter. > I feel that the continued exchange of information and ideas which > have > come forth on "PRR-Talk" have been of value to me. Having never been > a > member of the PRRT&HS and not planning to join, it holds no value for > me. > I am some distance from the locations of the Societys > meetings/conventions > etc so attending them is not a probability. I am a long way away from the Keystone State myself. If I attend anything, I give up my vacation funds. The odds against me attending are long. For these reasons I did not join the PRRT&HS for years The KEYSTONE alone is worth the dues. It is extremely well done and quite informative. I unsubscribe from many things. PRR-TALK and THE KEYSTONE are both keepers! Now if we can actually get some archived information online, well that would be great. > I enjoy the anonymity of cyber space, it allows one to send and > receive > information without the biases of our civilization. One never knows > the > age, sex, race, religon or any other fact which is not revealed by the > writer. One simply accepts the e-mail as is without prejudice. Since > there is no interpersonal intercourse, corrections seem to come easier > and > without confrontation. If a PRRT&HS chapter formed in Indianapolis, I might join. I would insist on keeping my affiliation with the Cyber chapter, for the very reasons you mention. I do not like a club which attempts to be exclusive. Physical distance can make an organization exclusive. So can an attitude of "Send us your dollars, but don't even suggest ways to improve our organization. We have it just the way we like it and don't want it to change. If you like it the way it is, you are welcome, but keep your ideas to yourself." That attitude is a common one in organizations with a physical place to meet. A CYBER chapter could not work with that attitude. We are just too independent, and there are too many places in CYBERSPACE where we can spend our time for us to feel stuck with a group with a bad attitude. I am a PRR fan, but I could develop interests in the MONON, WABASH, B & O, Nickel Plate or other railroads if they develop properly into CyberSpace and this PRR group develops a bad attitude. I site this only to indicate how independent we all are in CyberSpace. This group is a good one and allows or even treasures diverse opinions. >I have found e-mail on the PRR-Talk to be most > courteous as opposed to chat groups. Yes, this has been a fun group. I want to see it grow and just keep getting better. > There must be a great number of lurkers out there who will read this > and > not reply. Well why not? Speak up and let your feelings be > known!!!!!!!!! > Thanks for the time......... > Sincerely, > S.A. McCall HOSAM > Franklin, Va. You have my reaction to your excellent points. I hope you find my comments useful as opposed to a waste of time. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS/PRRT&HS ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 10:03:41 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: firming up on cyber-PRR Content-Length: 931 Andrew S. Miller wrote: > > "I Move that we establish a cyber organization dedicated to PRR > history, > preservation AND modeling with full consideration to both Lines East > AND > Lines West, and that this organization be affilitated with the > PRRHTS." > > All in favor? > > Robert A. Boyd > Those Classic Trains > "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." Count me IN! This would be a dream come true. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS/PRRT&HS ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963 Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 10:18:15 EST Subject: New Book: Railroads of Indiana Content-Length: 889 Railroads of Indiana Richard S. Simons and Francis H. Parker Indiana University Press "Great Book, Great Christmas Present" Extensive coverage of the PRR including excellant family tree and maps of the PRR in Indiana. Includes a list and location of 8 PRR covered bridges in Indiana. At its peak the PRR had the most track in the Hoosier State with 1556 miles of track or 21 percent of the total followed closely by the NYC. Harold McGee A transplanted Hoosier Gainesville, FL ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 10:19:35 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Thanks Content-Length: 2499 Greetings, As most of you know by now the economic crisis is over at "PRR-Talk". I want to thank all who volunteered to suscribe to "PRR-talk" to keep it on the air. Those of you who wish can also turn your attention to the Cyber Chapter which is in the early stages of formation. Mark D Bej is organizing this effort. Again, the response was excellent and emphatically states the need for a free forum for the exchange of information about the PRR. Following is a listing of those who offered to suscribe: Stephen Bartlett "Bill Knepper" carl-vic-vogel@juno.com (Carl K Vogel) "Greg Leary" Hal6963 ARR JERRY rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Doug Drew "Bob Zoeller" "s.a. mccall" Stephen Bernas JDPanza "Larry P. Morgan" "Brian Brandt" "Liberty" "Bill Nixon" Tom Vondruska LINESWEST Jerry Shickler George Eichhorn Rick Nelson John Keel Da72jmk "Bunger, James" H.Mummert bubbles@mail.visi.net "Eric J. Minton" locoshop@juno.com (Jeremy C Helms) Roger Elliott "W. Jim Hudson" Arne Wangen asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) "R. Vogel" Harold McGee hal6963@aol.com Rick Siller (rtsiller@aol.com) I want to say that I have met only 2 or 3 people on the list, Jerry Britton is not among them sadly as I feel he is an old friend. The internet has made it possible to interface with people whom you might never meet. Sure beats those weekly or monthly meetings. Again thanks for the response. Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 10:39:00 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Cyber Chapter Content-Length: 1357 Is it time to slow down and look around for a minute?? A while back the discussion started on forming a Web chapter of the PRRTHS. This progressed until: Jerry announced he would have to discontinue KC because of the expense of maintaining it; whereupon: Many PRR-talk members offered to support KC financially. It turned out that very little cash per capita was necessary. Then: Jerry obtained sponsors/advertisers who have pledged to support KC for a specified period, alleviating the need for individual support, although most of us interested have indicated we were still ready to suppport this site. It looks to me like the idea of a Web Chapter of the PRRTHS and of a KC supported all or in part by all or a part of the users have become muddied together. IMHO the structures of the anticipated activities need to be redefined into their separate entities, just so we know in which direction we are headed. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 11:03:09 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: N6 cabin cars Content-Length: 805 LINESWEST wrote: > > In a message dated 97-12-26 20:14:05 EST, you write: > > << I can assure you that there > was no sheet metal except that used on the smoke jack (chimney). >> > > Dan, > > What was used. wood, canvas & asphaltum? > > Tom V. Wooden longitudinal members to form the roof, overlaid with canvas. I do seem to recall a tar (asphalt) coating over that. Dan Cupper ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 11:22:18 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: What did Santa bring you? Content-Length: 2291 ajc5150@net66.com wrote: > This year I got a medallion about 1 1/2" in diameter. It appears to be > brass and on the front of it it has a red keystone with the words > Pennsylvania System written in it. On the outer edge of the front it > has the words "Southwestern Region Championship 1922". On the back it > says "1st Place - Volleyball". > > I thought it was pretty interesting that the PRR had regional sports > championships back in 1922. Not just volleyball, but everything else. Baseball, track, tennis, trap shooting, wrestling, boxing, quoits, horseshoes, swimming, golf, and on and on . . . There were regional meets for both summer and winter sports (like the Olympics). i.e., Eastern Region championships were held in Williamsport, Pa., in September 1921. Systemwide meets were held in Columbus and Dennison, Ohio, and (of course) Altoona, and probably other locations. The 1920s was the high point for PRR's sports sponsorship program. The railroad was ideally set up to do this, operating trains to the championships for both the athletes and for employees and families who wanted to attend. (Some employees who weren't even competing were granted time off to attend.) There were strong overtones of corporate paternalism in this, as PRR viewed itself as a grand provider of not only employment but also social events that could build employee loyalty and morale. Of course, this all was taking place against the backdrop of the bitter 1922 national shopmen's strike, which was a total flop in Altoona because of the presence of "company unions" among the 16,000 shopworkers there. (PRR train and engine crews were unionized in the 19th century) One unspoken message behind the sports program was, "PRR provides all of these benefits for you as an employee -- why do you need a union?" Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net John 1:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 13:38:22 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Cyber Chapter & PRRT&HS Affiliation Content-Length: 1578 Larry Morgan wrote to S. A. McCall: >> Would someone out there explain to me the advantages of becoming the >> Cyber Chapter of the PRRT&HS. > >I see two main advantages. The quarterly mailing (The Keystone) has >great articles and information. >The second advantage >is the large archive of original information which could POSSIBLY be >made available to us as a chapter. ===== I can think of a third, and perhaps most compelling reason to affiliate with the PRRHTS: we don't want to create a split in the PRR community. It will be all too easy to generate resentment and touch off a snit match with the establishment, especially as the PRRHTS seems to suffer a certain amount of fossilization. Good, bad or indifferent (and I daresay PRRHTS is one of the better SIGs around) the advantages of affiliating make it well worth the diplomatic manouvering that will be needed. Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Thanks -- Modeling Update Date: Sat, 27 Dec 97 16:32:23 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1507 Just want to say thanks to all those who have provided input and tips for putting together that Bowser K4 I received as a gift last June. I am constantly referring to my "PRR-Talk" notes as construction progresses. My K4 #1361 was track tested last week (motor only) and finally got its boiler mounted today. Perhaps I'll get some time to spend on the tender tomorrow. Anyway, once it's all together, then I can take it apart for painting. (Seems like there's something terribly inefficient here!) Meanwhile, I have completed Bowser N5 #5017 "Assigned To Passenger Service/Railway Express Agency" to tag on the end of a mail train. It includes a window kit. Trainphone is yet to come. My Dremel tool bit the dust and I can't drill detail holes until I get a new one. The new Dremel will have to take precedence over the air brush. Damned! (Ah hell, it lasted 20 years!) ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 13:33:30 -0700 From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 12/27/97 Content-Length: 3390 > Subject: Steamer questions > From: locoshop@juno.com (Jeremy C Helms) > Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 08:39:01 +0000 > > Hello all, > > I have some questions about PRR steam locomotives. When did > the PRR use the Futura lettering on the steam locomotives (start and > end)? Raymond Lowey was responsible for the use of Futura lettering...it started in the late '30's and ran only to the early 40's. Reportedly, Pennsy's president didn't care for it and it was replaced with a different version of Craw Clarendon. Before the Futura, lettering on the tenders was condensed and centered on the tender. After the restoration, it was spread out...and the lettering style was slightly modified, on P's and S's. The restoration lettering had curves on these letters, while the previous style had a more blocked version. Recent lettering sets by Champ include both styles. > When did PRR start to modernize their steamers with the cast pilot > and relocation of the headlight/generator? The drop coupler (NOT a cast version, it was fabricated) was first used on a K4s in 1940...pictures of this application appear in PENNSY POWER III. However, the reversal of the headlight and generator started sometime after 1947...and continued on through the fifties. A few steamers retained their original configuration until the end of steam (those that lasted that long, that is) > I am also looking for anyone > who has worked with Bowser steam locomotive kits, the layout will have > LOTS of those and I was wondering about re-powering and making the kits > run smoothly. With the Bowsers, take your time on the mechanisms and they should be quite smooth...the instructions do help there. I am using the Helix Humper drop-in (it sorta drops in) repowering kit in a L1s that is currently under erection at my shops. These have a built-in flywheel, can motor, and an idler gearbox. I think there are a couple of other options as well, and the supplied Pittman motor does work well as well. The biggest problems with Bowser, is the poor tenders. The tank supplied with the L1s is pretty accurate (with the substitution of Cal Scale heavy-duty andrews trucks), but is worng for the K's. The long-haul tender usually associated with the Bowser I1s is actually correct for the M1/M1a class locomotives. I haven't seen the tender for the G5 as of yet...but from the pictures in Bowser's catalogue it looks allright...and it should do for some H9's as well as some E6's as well. The tank supplied with the Bowser H9s and E6s stinks...it was a poor attempt to mimic the low-side tender often associated with these locomotives using the L1s tank. Throw it away, and use the tender from MDC...with some modification it does quite well. Bowser did acquire (some years ago) the Arbour Models line...they did a J1/J1a with the correct tender...this tank (if Bowser ever reissues it) would be correct for both M class as well as I class. Bill Daniels ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 16:39:30 -0500 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: firming up on cyber-PRR Content-Length: 737 Robert A. Boyd wrote: > "I Move that we establish a cyber organization dedicated to PRR history, > preservation AND modeling with full consideration to both Lines East AND > Lines West, and that this organization be affilitated with the PRRHTS." > > All in favor? > I'm in, too! -- Jerry Shickler e-mail: geshick@velocity.net ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 16:57:59 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Questions Content-Length: 1021 Greetings, Now that the finiancial crisis is over at "PRR-Talk" all questions concerning "PRR-Talk" should be addressed to Jerry Britton. All questions concerning the proposed Cyber Chapter should be addressed to Mark Bej. I was only trying to be prevent "PRR-Talk" from disappearing from the net. Jerry Britton is the list owner of "PRR-Talk". Mark Bej has volunteered himself to be the spokesman for the Cyber Chapter. I have no further comment. I will continue to support "PRR-Talk". I am waiting to see what develops concerning the Cyber Chapter. Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 17:50:16 -0500 From: "Tom von Trott" Subject: Re: Heresy, not really. Content-Length: 872 "One thing to remember is that in the 40s and 50s, track was built for steam >and passengers - the gauge was a little wider on curves and there was more >superelevation. Which explains some of the problems some of the restored >steam has had in frogs and curves. More than a few of todays trains would >be scattered on the ballast due to the superelevation and widened gauge" That is a particlualary valid point when discusing the N&W J's. Tom von Trott ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 21:07:37 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: Cyber Chapter & PRRT&HS Affiliation Content-Length: 2096 Robert A. Boyd wrote: > > Larry Morgan wrote to S. A. McCall: > > >> Would someone out there explain to me the advantages of becoming > the > >> Cyber Chapter of the PRRT&HS. > > > >I see two main advantages. The quarterly mailing (The Keystone) has > >great articles and information. > > >The second advantage > >is the large archive of original information which could POSSIBLY be > >made available to us as a chapter. > > ===== > > I can think of a third, and perhaps most compelling reason to > affiliate > with the PRRHTS: we don't want to create a split in the PRR community. > It > will be all too easy to generate resentment and touch off a snit match > with > the establishment, especially as the PRRHTS seems to suffer a certain > amount of fossilization. > > Good, bad or indifferent (and I daresay PRRHTS is one of the better > SIGs > around) the advantages of affiliating make it well worth the > diplomatic > manouvering that will be needed. > > Robert A. Boyd > Those Classic Trains > "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." > For a group, I agree with your position. Forming a seperate PRR group would cause rifts. For an individual, it may not make sense to join PRRT&HS. We have many particiapnt who do not want to affiliate with PRRT&HS. I hope we respect that. What I would LIKE to see is the CYBER CHAPTER form with PRRT&HS affiliation, and SPONSOR PRR-TALK with the "AD at the bottom. Jerry will have a PERMANENT sponsor and secure funds. Those who like PRR-TALK but not the PRRT&HS will still have a home. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS/PRRT&HS ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: firming up on cyber-PRR Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 22:29:35 -0500 Content-Length: 1401 Bob, I agree ! Bill Knepper PRRT&HS NCR Chapter ---------- > From: Jerry Shickler > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: firming up on cyber-PRR > Date: Saturday, December 27, 1997 4:39 PM > > Robert A. Boyd wrote: > > > "I Move that we establish a cyber organization dedicated to PRR history, > > preservation AND modeling with full consideration to both Lines East AND > > Lines West, and that this organization be affilitated with the PRRHTS." > > > > All in favor? > > > I'm in, too! > -- > Jerry Shickler > e-mail: geshick@velocity.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help > save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: Thanks -- Modeling Update Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 22:32:26 -0500 Content-Length: 2202 Jerry, Finger drills are only a few bucks !......... Bill Knepper ---------- > From: Jerry > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: Thanks -- Modeling Update > Date: Saturday, December 27, 1997 3:32 PM > > Just want to say thanks to all those who have provided input and tips for > putting together that Bowser K4 I received as a gift last June. I am > constantly referring to my "PRR-Talk" notes as construction progresses. > > My K4 #1361 was track tested last week (motor only) and finally got its > boiler mounted today. Perhaps I'll get some time to spend on the tender > tomorrow. Anyway, once it's all together, then I can take it apart for > painting. (Seems like there's something terribly inefficient here!) > > Meanwhile, I have completed Bowser N5 #5017 "Assigned To Passenger > Service/Railway Express Agency" to tag on the end of a mail train. It > includes a window kit. Trainphone is yet to come. My Dremel tool bit the > dust and I can't drill detail holes until I get a new one. The new Dremel > will have to take precedence over the air brush. Damned! (Ah hell, it > lasted 20 years!) > > ----------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton > "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > ----------------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help > save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: Half "G" Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 22:46:10 -0500 Content-Length: 2094 Bob, Why cut up a good GG1 ? Even though I took the same pictures in 1982 at the tour of the shops........ Bill Knepper ---------- > From: Robert A. Boyd > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: Half "G" > Date: Saturday, December 27, 1997 2:09 AM > > >I saw the half-G in Wilmington and took photos of it back in May 1982. > >It has (had ?) a snow blower built into what had been the middle of the > >body and small bay windows added so the engineer could "drive" it > >backwards. the nose end was still the same and had the only coupler. > >It was obviously used to clear snow from yard tracks, but also saw duty, > >as I was told at the time, as a switcher. Since there were dozens of > >G's on the dead line awaiting the scrap torch :-( maybe it was used to > >move them around. > > ===== > > I wonder if anyone would have the nerve to model this. It ought to > generate howls of outrage among the True Believers of Lines East! > > > Robert A. Boyd > Those Classic Trains > "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." > > ========================================================== > > "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com > The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help > save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 23:25:25 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: Thanks -- Modeling Update Content-Length: 3901 On Sat, 27 Dec 1997, Bill Knepper wrote: > Jerry, > Finger drills are only a few bucks !......... And *somebody* has Dremels on sale this week; I forget who but remember seeing one when we were looking for the Black+Decker cordless (3 3/8") circular saw for my father, on the 23rd. Oddly: on the 24th I was working on my IHC (PRR) SD35, mating it to a Proto 2000 SD7 drive I picked up cheaply, and needed a cutoff wheel. I have an older Dremel clone, but I couldn't find it. My father and brother also have Dremels, so I planned to borrow one of theirs, but I couldn't find cutoff wheels. My dad was going out, and came back with some cutoff wheels. (Of course by then I had used the hammer method and then filed the weight smooth, and was done!) Lo, the next day did I get a new Dremel.... Ob-PRR: I also discovered on the SD35 that the Atlas/Con-Cor shell is more accurate for the PRR, neither came factory with the right style of numbering on the cab (but neither do the Kato GP35 and SD40!!!) and *both* have handrails which are wrong on one side of the unit! As soon as I finish the fuel tank mods, the IHC is roadworthy, and then I plan to modify the Atlas shell (slightly) and paint it, and find a better drive... -D > > Bill Knepper > > ---------- > > From: Jerry > > To: PRR-Talk > > Subject: Thanks -- Modeling Update > > Date: Saturday, December 27, 1997 3:32 PM > > > > Just want to say thanks to all those who have provided input and tips for > > > putting together that Bowser K4 I received as a gift last June. I am > > constantly referring to my "PRR-Talk" notes as construction progresses. > > > > My K4 #1361 was track tested last week (motor only) and finally got its > > boiler mounted today. Perhaps I'll get some time to spend on the tender > > tomorrow. Anyway, once it's all together, then I can take it apart for > > painting. (Seems like there's something terribly inefficient here!) > > > > Meanwhile, I have completed Bowser N5 #5017 "Assigned To Passenger > > Service/Railway Express Agency" to tag on the end of a mail train. It > > includes a window kit. Trainphone is yet to come. My Dremel tool bit the > > dust and I can't drill detail holes until I get a new one. The new Dremel > > > will have to take precedence over the air brush. Damned! (Ah hell, it > > lasted 20 years!) > > > > ----------------------------------------------- > > Jerry Britton > > "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ > > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > ----------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help > > save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help > save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Michael DiMaio" Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 00:52:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Solutions? Content-Length: 1691 I for one feel that those who want to be members of Penn Tech should be allowed to be members of it. I do feel, however, that this list should remain the FREE and open forum that it is. If some want to form a cyber chapter, then let them set up a new list. There are some of us(at least me) who have no desire to upset the status quo! Why reinvent the wheeel when it is all ready working well!!!!!!!! > Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:28:56 -0800 > From: Roger Elliott > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Solutions? > Merry Christmas Jerry! > I like your proposed solution and the idea of a cyber club, especially > since I live in Arcata, CA! I think the idea of keeping the listserv > free sounds good and then password access to archives based on > membership. > Thanks, > Roger Elliott > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help > save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 01:56:00 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Half "G" Content-Length: 1007 >Bob, >Why cut up a good GG1 ? Even though I took the same pictures in 1982 at the >tour of the shops........ > >Bill Knepper >> ===== >> >> I wonder if anyone would have the nerve to model this. It ought to >> generate howls of outrage among the True Believers of Lines East! Can you think of a better reason, Bill? Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 01:56:03 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: The Florida Trains Content-Length: 1737 >On page 58 of Don Ball's book The PRR 1940s - 1950s are two photos of a Tuscan >GG1 pulling the Seaboard Airlines Silver Meteor south to Florida. I know about >the PRR affiliation with the Atlantic Coast Line but am unfamiliar with the >Seaboard affiliation, does anyone have info on this? This train apparently >originated in Penn Station. I do know the PRR had some ownership in both the >ACL and the SAL. > >Harold McGee >Gainesville, FL ===== PRRs affiliation with the Florida trains was that everything running from Washington to NYC (with the exception of B & O) was forwarded by the Pennsy. PRR also did some pool purchases of rolling stock - buying the coaches and sleepers and leaving the smaller roads to pick up the non-revenue cars. I don't recall hearing of PRR having an ownership interest in the SAL or ACL (they did have the N & W for many years). I am inclined to doubt that they did have a stock position because the ACL and SAL cars would have been tuscan like N&W. But then, I am not into this corporate stuff. Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 07:44:53 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Signals and survey Content-Length: 1326 Da72jmk wrote: > > House of Duddy has some O scale PRR dwarf signals. How accurately are they > scaled? > John, I just found Fran Pfeil's review in the Spring, 1987, "Keystone" on the Duddy O Scale PRR dwarf or "Low Home Signals," quoting the rule book. He gives the following dimensions: Prototype Model Height, including legs 18 13/16" 22 1/2" Width, over legs 19 23 Depth, excluding back cover 3 1/4" 6 1/2" The increased depth is to accomodate the LED's used in the unit. It should be noted that the dwarf and pedestal signals used white, not yellow signals. Price at the time of the review was $8.75 each, 5 for $42.00, and 10 for $42.50. Fran states that the unit is well detailed and features all four lamps, allowing for four aspects: "Stop Signal", "Restricting," "Slow Approach", and "Slow Clear." Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:05:57 +0000 Subject: Phase 3 GP9 antenna From: locoshop@juno.com (Jeremy C Helms) Content-Length: 1035 Hello all, While doing some research this weekend on the GP9s to complete a project on a Proto 2000 undecorated GP9 I had looked through a number of books looking for the presents of antenna on the Phase 3 GP9s (#7150-7269). I have written up 3 pages worth of units running from delivered GP9s to 1968. There is no sign of antennas on these units. The early GP9s had antennas on them, including 2 in the PC era (still retained their antenna) and painted in the dip scheme. Can anyone DEFINITELY confirm, by picture, that the previously mentioned units had antennas mounted on them? Thanks for your help. Jeremy Helms ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 08:55:54 EST Subject: Re: "PRR-Talk" subscribers (fwd) Content-Length: 785 In a message dated 97-12-26 13:28:03 EST, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: << I will print out and present at the next PRRTHS meeting. I am not sure what the rules are on chapter vs. national membership, i.e., must one be a member of national to be a member of a chapter? >> It is my understanding that you do not need to be a national member to be a member of a chapter. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 09:23:21 EST Subject: Re: Pitcairn question Content-Length: 2197 In a message dated 97-12-26 15:53:50 EST, locoshop@juno.com writes: << I have a question that I am really looking for some answers on. In the book Triumph 1 on page 326 there is a picture of the roundhouse and turntable. It looks like there is actually 2 (two) turntables in there, is this correct? The date in the caption says 1922, is that correct? Does anyone know if there actually were 2 turntables how long both were in place right next to each other? It is a VERY interesting arrangement. Were both turntables of the 110' length or not? This would be an interesting thing to model is why I ask. Thanks for all help in advance. >> There were actually 4 turntables at Pitcairn yard. Three 110 ft and one 75 ft. THe 75 ft. table was located north of the passenger station with the two leads coming off the No 3 track of the passenger car yard. No roundhouse only 3 inspection pits and on storage track. 110 ft table between the engine storage yard and the No 2 repair yard. leads from the engine storage runaround track and engine ready yards. No roundhouse 1 repair pit, coaling tower, sanding facility, ash pit and running inspection pit. 110 ft table freight car repait shop . 360 degree roundhouse freight car shop. located northe east of the westaward calssification yard east of the N 1 repair yard and north of the retards for the west bound hump. 2 leads from the No 1 repair yard and one lead from the No 1 track of the westward receiving yard. used as the principle roundhouse until the following was built in the erly 1920's. 100 ft. table 34 stall roundhouse locted south of the westward classigication yard west of the Pittsburg Transfer yard, north of the east receiving yard, old #1 main and the relay track. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 10:23:19 EST Subject: Re: PRR's "Texas Eagle" Content-Length: 934 In a message dated 97-12-27 11:54:14 EST, hosam@gc.net writes: << I would suspect that in St. Louis passengers etc were transferred to other trains operated by other roads such as MoPac. The PRR "Texas Eagle" would then return to New York with the same consist. >> Pullmans were through service. The cars were transferred from the PRR Penn Texas to the MoPAC Texas Eagle. The eastbound cars were likewise transferred from MoPAC to the PRR trains. Convience of the passengers was of paramount importance. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 09:26:12 -0700 From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 12/28/97 Content-Length: 1828 > > From: Jerry > > To: PRR-Talk > > Subject: Thanks -- Modeling Update > > Date: Saturday, December 27, 1997 3:32 PM > > > > My K4 #1361 was track tested last week (motor only) and finally got its > > boiler mounted today. Perhaps I'll get some time to spend on the tender > > tomorrow. Anyway, once it's all together, then I can take it apart for > > painting. (Seems like there's something terribly inefficient here!) > > Nah...nowhere as inefficient as painting it before assembly, putting it together, and then repainting it to correct all the scratches from trying to work all the bugs out. > > > Subject: Re: Half "G" > From: "Bill Knepper" > Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 22:46:10 -0500 > > Bob, > Why cut up a good GG1 ? Even though I took the same pictures in 1982 at the > tour of the shops........ The problem was it wasn't a good GG1. On several of the older G's, the frame had begun to rust quite severly (encasing the frame in a block of concrete was a good idea, until it came time to replace the rusted frame members...the frame of a GG1 is similar to a truss bridge, complete with a concrete base.). On this unit, the rot had progressed so severly that it was only good for scrapping, but it was still suitable for yard usage. The solution was to cut it into half, and utilize the better half for light-duty duty. Bill Daniels ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Liberty" Subject: Scale drawings ! Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 12:05:25 -0500 Content-Length: 1492 I need quality scale drawings of PRR equipment !! These are to be used to produce fine scale model kits to be available to all ! If any of you wish to share the info you have, it will be rewarding to all of us desiring to model the PRR. I will gladly pay for copying and postage. This request is for any motive pwr, cars, structures, signals and related equipment found on or used by the PRR. Thanks also for submitting your input on our recent survey questions, and feel free to e-mail (any time) suggestions on what you would like to see. If enough information can be found, we are currently looking at producing the following items (per your requests): Pennsy Streamliners and consists Baldwin sharks catenary equip. GG1 full and half versions (at least a quality shell so you don't have to cut one up) PRR Tender shells These items are first on our list and we need more data. We will most likely produce these in N and HO scale Your support is appreciated and needed ! Beleive me, you won't regret helping us out. Joe Zappa, Liberty Model Productions ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 12:38:59 -0500 From: "Drew R. McGhee" Subject: NG 150 years CDs was Re: What did Santa bring you? Content-Length: 1344 Happy Holidays to the group, Speaking of things that Santa may have brought you, did anyone get the National Geographic 150 years CDrom set. I remember someone in the group, I believe it was Jerry, going through back issues of NG for the PRR adds. This set would be an easier way of doing that. From what I read on the NG 150 Years box the ads are included and are JPEGS. Great for period bill boards don't you think? No I haven't gotten it, yet. The bursar here says we have to wait until we both get our next paychecks (This week!). Now from what I understand, the NG Society is selling the set for $180.00. They have it here at Sam's for $150.00. With my luck they'll be out of them by the the time I get over there to buy them. Thought the group might like to know about them and that Sam's has'em. Should I get them this week, will provide a report to the group, if no one else does first. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 12:39:23 -0500 From: "Drew R. McGhee" Subject: PRR Regional Sports was Re: What did Santa bring you? Content-Length: 1475 Greetings to the group, A few years ago, one of our faculty members here at Penn State Altoona College (Mike and Scott you'll get used to saying college) wrote a paper on the PRR baseball league. Should anyone be interested in it, let me know. I'll ask him if I can scan the paper and make it available as an Acrobat PDF file. Won't be able to contact him until after January 12th. That's when the semester starts up. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA >ajc5150@net66.com wrote: >> >> I thought it was pretty interesting that the PRR had regional sports >> championships back in 1922. > At 11:22 AM 12/27/97 -0500, Dan Cupper wrote: >Not just volleyball, but everything else. Baseball, track, tennis, trap >shooting, wrestling, boxing, quoits, horseshoes, swimming, golf, and on >and on . . . > >There were regional meets for both summer and winter sports (like the >Olympics). i.e., Eastern Region championships were held in >Williamsport, Pa., in September 1921. Systemwide meets were held in >Columbus and Dennison, Ohio, and (of course) Altoona,... ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: Some more questions Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 12:20:06 -0600 Content-Length: 2162 Tom Vondruska wrote: " Okay, I'm a Lines West partisan, so lIt's not surprising that I'll be offering a Lines West Solution. This will only work if you don't want to do electric. Modeling Fort Wayne might be what you're looking for. The Fort Wayne System's mainline was the Pennsy's primary New York to Chicago route for passenger, freight and mail traffic. While only double tracked west of Canton, Ohio, this line was heavily used throughout the day by every type of train and consist found on the Pennsylvania.." Etc. I agree. I like the Chicago Division, having grown up in the city. But, being a passenger operation afficionado, Ft. Wayne offered a lot of setouts and pickups of express/mail cars (and my favorite, milk cars, although descriptions of those operations are sketchy in my part of the country) , shuffling of other trains like (in the 40's) the Southland, Grand Rapids locals, etc. Detroit line and Richmond, IN lines junctioned just East and West of the city. Also, although I am working on a club layout until my new wife and I get a home, I am conscious of not biting off more than I can chew when I build my own layout. Although I like the Lines East 4-track steam + electric+ diesel etc., I know I cannot personally do a 4-track main plus catenary, nor afford it plus electric locos as well as steam. And I can tell you that I killed the club's dream to have 4-track main when I explained the costs of crossovers! And besides, there are those T1s and Q2s (big sigh)! Main thing I would miss would be Eastern scenery (I lived in both Pittsburgh and Philly at one time, so I am not immune to the charms). I might use some modeler's license and move a stone arch bridge to Indiana. Bob Zoeller Fox Point, WI ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:20:12 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: PRR in print Content-Length: 600 There's an index on Ebay right now: http://iguana.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3517338 Claims to be a definitive source (or was in 1988) for PRR in print. Just a heads-up. -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: FoM Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 12:28:08 -0600 Content-Length: 951 Doug Drew writes: "Did Rivarossi once do some of their streamline cars in FOM? Any idea of how it came out?" YES. BUDD CORRUGATED SIDES WERE DONE IN HO. " Did any heavyweight equipment with the more typical ends also have this scheme applied?" YES. OTHERS CAN GIVE BETTER DETAILS THAN ME. " Was the FOM scheme ever applied to head-end cars (difficult to believe), or strictly to passenger-carrying equipment?" YES. AT LEAST THE 38 BROADWAY RPO AND B70 BAGGAGE WERE SO DECORATED (AS MODELLED BY CHALLENGER) Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 14:56:31 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: Phase 3 GP9 antenna Content-Length: 1186 On Sun, 28 Dec 1997, Jeremy C Helms wrote: > Hello all, > > While doing some research this weekend on the GP9s to complete a project > on a Proto 2000 undecorated GP9 I had looked through a number of books > looking for the presents of antenna on the Phase 3 GP9s (#7150-7269). I > have written up 3 pages worth of units running from delivered GP9s to > 1968. There is no sign of antennas on these units. The early GP9s had > antennas on them, including 2 in the PC era (still retained their > antenna) and painted in the dip scheme. > > Can anyone DEFINITELY confirm, by picture, that the previously mentioned > units had antennas mounted on them? I can't DEFINITELY disprove it, but like Jeremy I can't find any of the phase 3 units with antennas either. -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 16:42:43 -0400 From: smithfam@earth.sunlink.net Subject: S & L Content-Length: 856 Happy holidays all, Could someone possibily inform about the PRR in Lewistown. For my high school graduation project I am modeling the S & L(Sunbury & Lewistown Railroad). Is there a yard at Lewistown and of what size is it? Is it comparable to the Northumberland Yard? On this note, exactly how big was the Northumberland yard anyway? One last question: was there a yard or sizable station at Milroy? Thanks for your help in advance, Brandon Smith ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:48:50 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: Half "G" Content-Length: 1823 Robert A. Boyd wrote: > > >Bob, > >Why cut up a good GG1 ? Even though I took the same pictures in 1982 at the > >tour of the shops........ > > > >Bill Knepper > > >> ===== > >> > >> I wonder if anyone would have the nerve to model this. It ought to > >> generate howls of outrage among the True Believers of Lines East! > > Can you think of a better reason, Bill? > > Robert A. Boyd > Those Classic Trains > "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." > > ========================================================== > > "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com > The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help > save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Bob, Hey, Why not take a chance/ Look around at some swap meets, maybe you can find an old IHC or Rivarossi "G" clunker that you can work on. I have a couple I found a few years back that I plan on doing some serious bashing with, both to make a half-G and to make a homespun boxcab out of with some MDC boxcab shells. Charlie Fox ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 18:14:27 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Half "G" Content-Length: 977 Robert A. Boyd wrote: > > >Bob, > >Why cut up a good GG1 ? Even though I took the same pictures in 1982 at the > >tour of the shops........ > > > >Bill Knepper > > >> ===== > >> > >> I wonder if anyone would have the nerve to model this. It ought to > >> generate howls of outrage among the True Believers of Lines East! > > Can you think of a better reason, Bill? > How about this ploy? Cut up a G, make two half-G's and give one to a friend. Park yours against a mirror at the end of a stub track and pick your moment to run it. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: SITE ALERT 12/29-30 Date: Sun, 28 Dec 97 20:08:59 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1534 As many of you know, a MAJOR snowstorm is due to hit the northeast during the afternoon of Monday and into Tuesday. Worst case scenario is up to 20 inches of the white stuff, lightning, and heavy winds. With such storms come downed lines, causing power and telco outages. Therefore, during this period: 1) Keep "PRR-Talk" posts short and concise. 2) Respond to "PRR-Talk" posts only if you have something to ask or a response that adds something worthwhile; not "me too". 3) Delay continued mass posts about the cyber chapter organization until Wednesday. Thanks, this will allow the listserv to keep up when it can between outages, if any. BTW: My name was not included on early lists supporting the cyber chapter...I will. I have already responded directly to Mark Bej on this. Got the Bowser K-4 tender done today. Next is adding details all around, then painting! Happy New Year! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: "PRR-Talk" subscribers (fwd) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 19:14:04 -0500 Content-Length: 2374 It is true (as of last year !) that you do not have to be a member of the National to be a member of a chapter......But you don't get any news from the National eather !.....Plus you will miss the best thing..."THE KEYSTONE"......which I personally think is worth the dues alone. Remember that the National dues money helps fund the research,and the archives projects......and thats were most of the information is.......other than the private collections that is! I belong to the National and I have only been to (1) one convention (Baltimore), but I would not give up membership......because of the KEYSTONE. I also belong to a chapter ( The Northern Central Chapter ), we only meet 4 times a year......we do have a news letter that is sent out 4-5 times a year........But the main thing is the camaraderie which is great...... The choice is yours, and also the loss.......Obviously I am proud to be a member of both groups....... Bill Knepper ---------- > From: SUVCW ORR > To: bejm@eeg.ccf.org; prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: "PRR-Talk" subscribers (fwd) > Date: Sunday, December 28, 1997 8:55 AM > > In a message dated 97-12-26 13:28:03 EST, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: > > << I will print out and present at the next PRRTHS meeting. I am not sure > what the rules are on chapter vs. national membership, i.e., must one be > a member of national to be a member of a chapter? > >> > It is my understanding that you do not need to be a national member to be a > member of a chapter. > > Rich Orr > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help > save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Knepper" Subject: Re: Half "G" again, and again ! Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 19:49:16 -0500 Content-Length: 1946 Stephen, Thats a new twist........or a good way of displaying one that hit the floor ! ops......Sounds like the wizard of Monterey (California) John Allen.........Or if it doesn't run any more....you could cut it long ways, and lay it up against the back drop....it would look like you had more G's............. ( a little spoof ) :>) Bill ---------- > From: Stephen Bartlett > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: Half "G" > Date: Sunday, December 28, 1997 6:14 PM > > Robert A. Boyd wrote: > > > > >Bob, > > >Why cut up a good GG1 ? Even though I took the same pictures in 1982 at the > > >tour of the shops........ > > > > > >Bill Knepper > > > > >> ===== > > >> > > >> I wonder if anyone would have the nerve to model this. It ought to > > >> generate howls of outrage among the True Believers of Lines East! > > > > Can you think of a better reason, Bill? > > > > How about this ploy? > > Cut up a G, make two half-G's and give one to a friend. Park yours > against a mirror at the end of a stub track and pick your moment to run > it. > > Steve Bartlett > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help > save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 19:37:03 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Half "G" Content-Length: 932 Stephen Bartlett suggests: > > How about this ploy? > >Cut up a G, make two half-G's and give one to a friend. Park yours >against a mirror at the end of a stub track and pick your moment to run >it. > ===== Sick. Twisted. I like it! Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 20:57:04 EST Subject: Re: "PRR-Talk" subscribers (fwd) Content-Length: 594 Bill, as a nearly 20 year member of the PRRT&HS I was not advocating joining a chapter without joining the National only responding to the question. All of your comments are correct. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 21:15:57 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Half "G" Content-Length: 1222 Robert A. Boyd wrote: > > Stephen Bartlett suggests: > > > > How about this ploy? > > > >Cut up a G, make two half-G's and give one to a friend. Park yours > >against a mirror at the end of a stub track and pick your moment to run > >it. > > > ===== > > Sick. Twisted. I like it! > > Thank you. Since we're on this enjoyable thread, I like Bill Knepper's idea of the lengthwise split, but I think it would be hard to run. John Allen would probably have used two mirrors and made it look like ALL the GG-1's, by painting one side Tuscan and the other DGLE. We could call it our own "Philadelphia Experiment." (If that doesn't mean anything to you, it was a book and a movie with some gruesome effects). Steve Bartlett "There is no such thing as First Class On an Airplane" :-) ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249 Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 22:49:52 EST Subject: Political Correctness in Railroad terms Content-Length: 794 The first (I believe) question of Political (gender) Correctness in Railroad Terms occurred during WW 2 = Before the war "Call Boys" visited the homes to call crews for service - later they did it by phone - During the war many women were used in this position but since the term "Call Girls" was already in use persons of both sexes became "Crew Callers" Dick Ross cleveland ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re:PRR sponsored sports teams was: What did Santa bring you? From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 00:21:27 EST Content-Length: 2740 I would be interested in seeing the paper. I can remember my father talking about playing on the Air Corps basketball and baseball teams in the local league when he was stationed at Kellog Field and that they played against [among others] the Grand Trunk, PRR, and NYC. This brings me to another, related, topic. In my other life as a part-time academic, I am assembling a compendium of SCHOLASTIC papers on the PRR and it's predecessors. If anybody on this list has any potential submissions or suggestions please contact me off-list. MEA ______________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com Management Services Telephone 609-683-0356 On Sun, 28 Dec 1997 12:39:23 -0500 "Drew R. McGhee" writes: >Greetings to the group, > >A few years ago, one of our faculty members here at Penn State Altoona >College (Mike and Scott you'll get used to saying college) wrote a >paper on >the PRR baseball league. Should anyone be interested in it, let me >know. >I'll ask him if I can scan the paper and make it available as an >Acrobat PDF >file. Won't be able to contact him until after January 12th. That's >when the >semester starts up. > >Drew R. McGhee >Altoona, PA > >>ajc5150@net66.com wrote: >>> >>> I thought it was pretty interesting that the PRR had regional >sports >>> championships back in 1922. >> >At 11:22 AM 12/27/97 -0500, Dan Cupper wrote: >>Not just volleyball, but everything else. Baseball, track, tennis, >trap >>shooting, wrestling, boxing, quoits, horseshoes, swimming, golf, and >on >>and on . . . >> >>There were regional meets for both summer and winter sports (like the >>Olympics). i.e., Eastern Region championships were held in >>Williamsport, Pa., in September 1921. Systemwide meets were held in >>Columbus and Dennison, Ohio, and (of course) Altoona,... > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help > >save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 01:18:59 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Half "G" again, and again ! Content-Length: 1136 >Stephen, > >Thats a new twist........or a good way of displaying one that hit the floor >! ops......Sounds like the wizard of Monterey (California) John >Allen.........Or if it doesn't run any more....you could cut it long ways, >and lay it up against the back drop....it would look like you had more >G's............. ( a little spoof ) :>) > >Bill ===== This is starting to sound more and more like my idea for a double ended rotary snow plow! Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 05:41:48 EST Subject: Re: PRR's "Texas Eagle" Content-Length: 799 In a message dated 97-12-28 10:33:12 EST, SUVCWORR@AOL.COM writes: >The cars were transferred from the PRR Penn Texas to the MoPAC >Texas Eagle. Also, one or two sleepers from the Penn Texas were transferred to the Frisco/MKT Texas Special. These Texas trains also were involved in through-car arrangements with the B&O and NYC, but PRR had the largest number of cars. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: O vs. O-27 Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 10:31:43 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1104 With regards to the K-Line train set my son received as a Christmas gift, what is the difference between "O" and "O-27" scales? I'm an "HO" scaler and know only that "O" is 1:48 (I think!). Is "O-27" 1:27 scale but running on the same track as "O"? The K-Line box says it is compatable with both. I noted that it is the three-track variety (Lionel) vs. the two-track type (American Flyer), having been somewhat educated by last weeks installment of "Trains Unlimited" which featured the history of Lionel. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bill.laird@Coastalcorp.com Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 8:47:11 -0600 Subject: E-R Models -Reply Content-Length: 1652 >>> "Eichhorn@aol.com" 12/25/97 10:05am wrote (in part)>>> In the January 98 issue of 'Railmodel Journal' in the "What's New--In HO" section, there is a photo showing a Southern Pacific FP7 and a PENNSY SHARKNOSE. The blurb below the photo states: "E-R Models is now importing upgraded Roco FP7 diesels with DCC-ready wiring. The models will be available with Soo, Southern, Amtrak, BN, B&O, Pennsylvania, ATSF and SP lettering. The "Sharknose" will appear this summer". Anyone have any experience with E-R Models or Roco and care to comment on them? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A couple of weeks ago I was in Phoenix, AZ and stopped in a train shop to see what they had (An Affair With Trains on Bethney Home Rd). They had several E-R FA1's on display. I bought the only PRR one they had for $ 54. The detail and paint are better than Walthers Trainline FA1's but not as good as one would expect from a Proto 2000 locomotive. I have only run it on a short test track but it ran smoothly, better than Athearn, not as good as Kato. I will not hesitate to buy an E-R PRR Sharknose when they become available. Bill Laird Houston, TX ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR's "Texas Eagle" From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 09:51:36 -0500 Content-Length: 1227 In a message dated 97-12-28 10:33:12 EST, SUVCWORR@AOL.COM writes: >The cars were transferred from the PRR Penn Texas to the MoPAC >Texas Eagle. Also, one or two sleepers from the Penn Texas were transferred to the Frisco/MKT Texas Special. These Texas trains also were involved in through-car arrangements with the B&O and NYC, but PRR had the largest number of cars. Rich Copeland - ----- Rich, These TEXAS SPECIAL cars were usually PS fluted 14-4s. They are now available from Union Station products. A foto of one which I built (JAMES BOWIE) is on Keystone Crossings. (A better foto will follow. This one was rushed into production by me and done with an auto-everything flash camera.) The PRR painted some 10-5s in T/S colors and shadowlined them for that service. regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Thanks -- Modeling Update -Reply Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 10:53:10 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1257 On 12/29/97 11:37 AM, bill.laird@Coastalcorp.com (bill.laird@Coastalcorp.com) wrote: >Jerry, please tell us about the rest of your mail train consist. Thanks. The consist is as follows: The Bowser N5 (that's it!) Red Caboose is releasing their X-29 in REA any time now, if they haven't already. These will be available in 12 numbers. That'll make a train. Head end power will be either the Bowser K4 currently under construction or a set of P2K E7's in DGLE that are coming out in February. I have an ABA set of Tuscan P2K E7's to pull my 1954 "Liberty Limited". I'll probably save the Bowser for the Buffalo-Baltimore "Dominion Express". --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bill.laird@Coastalcorp.com Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 8:53:46 -0600 Subject: Cyber Chapter -Reply Content-Length: 511 Please add my name to those willing to support PRR-Talk financially. Bill Laird bill.laird@coastalcorp.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: The Florida Trains From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 10:00:46 -0500 Content-Length: 1549 On page 58 of Don Ball's book The PRR 1940s - 1950s are two photos of a Tuscan GG1 pulling the Seaboard Airlines Silver Meteor south to Florida. I know about the PRR affiliation with the Atlantic Coast Line but am unfamiliar with the Seaboard affiliation, does anyone have info on this? This train apparently originated in Penn Station. I do know the PRR had some ownership in both the ACL and the SAL. Harold McGee Gainesville, FL - ------- Harold, The PRR did participate in the SAL Florida trains. From DC to NY they hauled the SILVER METEOR, SILVER STAR, SILVER COMET, the ORANGE BLOSSOM SPECIAL, and several lesser trains. They contributed equipment to the pools of the "silver" trains. The SAL and the ACL were in head-to-head competition for the NY-Fla traffic and the PRR was the NYC link for both. The RF&P was the DC to Richmond link for both. FEC hauled then ACL trains to Jacksonville to Miami; SAL had their own Miami line. I too had heard that the PRR had an ownership stake in the SAL. An excellent book has been published on these trains "Streamliner from NY to Florida". regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Looking for a URL: 643 pics Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 10:05:47 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 552 Hi Tom, The photos are on my PRR pages, www.internexus.net/~robs/PRR I forget the name of the directory, so just follow the link from there... Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bill.laird@Coastalcorp.com Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 9:37:13 -0600 Subject: Thanks -- Modeling Update -Reply Content-Length: 711 >>> "jerry@dsop.com" 12/27/97 04:17pm wrote (in part)>>> Meanwhile, I have completed Bowser N5 #5017 "Assigned To Passenger Service/Railway Express Agency" to tag on the end of a mail train. Jerry, please tell us about the rest of your mail train consist. Thanks. Bill Laird Houston, TX ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 11:16:54 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: O vs. O-27 Content-Length: 2200 Jerry_Britton wrote: > > With regards to the K-Line train set my son received as a Christmas gift, > what is the difference between "O" and "O-27" scales? > > I'm an "HO" scaler and know only that "O" is 1:48 (I think!). Is "O-27" > 1:27 scale but running on the same track as "O"? > > The K-Line box says it is compatable with both. I noted that it is the > three-track variety (Lionel) vs. the two-track type (American Flyer), > having been somewhat educated by last weeks installment of "Trains > Unlimited" which featured the history of Lionel. > Jerry, This refers principally to track geometry. Regular O Gauge is 30 inch diameter circle, 15 inch radius O-27 is 13 1/2 inch radius, 27 inch diameter circle (0-72 was 36 inch radius, 72 inch diameter) All measured to center of track. O-27 uses a smaller and lower rail, but the gauges are all the same. O and O--72 us heavier, higher rail size, and have slightly different clearances in the switches and crossings. Old O-27 locos may have the gears on the bach of the drivers (steam) closer to the outer edge of the flange than older O engines and may not run well through switches. (Old Marx engines had the diameter of the driver gears equal to the flange diameter (they were flush with the O. D. and would not run at all through any kind of guard rail or flangeway. Some larger O gauge, particularly today's big equipment may not run on O-27 curves, and _may_ hit the mechanism boxes on O-27 switches. In general, it is that sort of differences you will run into. O-27 trains tended to be a bit smaller overall. Remember that before Lionel got into making trains to "scale dimensions" they tended to be somewhat casual about the relative sizes of different items. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: The Bachmann Pulman From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 11:25:09 -0500 Content-Length: 2880 I finally got a Bachmann Pullman today. Why does B do these things?? Its terribly frustraing to see them do such a fine job of mold making, include interiors, metal truck, lights, Kadee-compatible couplers; and then just ignore the prototype! I did some research. This very rare car did exist. For those interesterd here's what I dug up in the Wayner reprint of the Pullman Co's 1950 list of cars: The car is a 10 section, 1 drawing room, 2 double bedroom; plan 4074, diagram 67. It was owned by seven roads with names as follows: C&O (far and away the most prolific owner - 10 cars) Chancellor Livingston Charles Thomas Governor Nelson Isaav Shelby Jack Jouett Meriwether Lewis Pierre L'Enfant Sam Houston Simon Kenton William Clark DL&W 5 cars Scenic Falls Scenic Highlands Scenic Slope Scenic Trail Scenic Valley Erie 1 car Scenic Island L&N 4 cars Andrew Pickens James Lane Allen John Trotwood Moore Sidney Lanier LV 3 cars Scenic Forest Scenic Rapids Scenic Ravine Southern 3 cars Fuller E. Calloway George Poindexter Thomas Ruffin Pullman Pool 1 car Scenic Glade Bachmann offers their car painted for UP, SF, PRR, B&O, and GN. Notice something funny? These are what mathematicians call mutually exculsive lists. B offers them only for roads which DID NOT OWN THEM! With little effort in research B could have made the far more common 10 sec, 1 dr, 2 COMPARTMENT car; used by many roads. A kit bash, however, is almost impossible because the compartments are at the same end of the car as the dr; while the 2 dblbrs are at the other end of the car. Two other very common modernized, single vestibule configurations were in existance: the 6sec-6 dblbr, and the 8sec-5dblbr. But Bachmann probably just went with the first foto they found. Now about the roof! Its not the roof for this car!! The AC duct covers the corridors and completely misses the bedrooms! It even has a drip strip over the blind end where there is no vestibule!! I can't begin to guess what they were looking at when they did the roof! Being a PRR fan, I will reletter my car for Southern. These cars did get into Penn Station on the Birmingham Special connection as through cars from Knoxville and Chatenooga (ref NIGHT TRAINS) regards and Happy New Year Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Thanks -- Modeling Update -Reply From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 11:31:37 -0500 Content-Length: 1975 Jerry, Also consider the Bethlehem Car Works PRR B-60 baggage car or M60b RPO, the IHC/AHM/Rivarossi PRR RPO, and perhaps the Bachmann PB70 combine for you mail train. Come to think of it, with the caboose, there would be no need for the combine! regards Andy Miller >On 12/29/97 11:37 AM, bill.laird@Coastalcorp.com >(bill.laird@Coastalcorp.com) wrote: > >>Jerry, please tell us about the rest of your mail train consist. Thanks. > >The consist is as follows: > > The Bowser N5 > (that's it!) > >Red Caboose is releasing their X-29 in REA any time now, if they haven't >already. These will be available in 12 numbers. That'll make a train. >Head end power will be either the Bowser K4 currently under construction >or a set of P2K E7's in DGLE that are coming out in February. > >I have an ABA set of Tuscan P2K E7's to pull my 1954 "Liberty Limited". >I'll probably save the Bowser for the Buffalo-Baltimore "Dominion >Express". > >--------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com >Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com >Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help >save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 10:33:36 CST Subject: New PRR book... Content-Length: 1083 Hi, gang, I wrote on this earlier, but the new book from MotorBooks Publishing on the PRR is as good in the text as it is in the photos. In fact, I would recommend it as the best up-to-date intro to the PRR I know. It contains a nice written history of the PRR including the various major lines that were folded into the PRR. There is also converage on major yards and major physical improvements to the line. In essence, this is a slimmed down version of the Centennial History and a lot more readable. At around $18, it's a must. PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 10:39:10 CST Subject: Maps of yards, etc. Content-Length: 1703 Hi, everyone, I've noticed the discussion of maps of major PRR yards in some recent messages. I just remembered - one interesting source on this available through major libraries (and maybe even on the web for all I know) is the Sanbron Insurance maps. The Sanborn Co. did detailed maps of buildings that might be insurable and often up-dated these every ten years or so. Many libararies ahve indexes to these maps put out by the Lib. of Congress, which holds a complete set. Use this to see if the location you're after was covered. What you get is a highly detailed and often quite accurate map (at a very large scale). Most major railroad structures were included, especially if they were in a decent-sized town. And these maps were often done during the height of steam operation when most of the yards we're interested in were at their height. The other source of good accurate maps (besides the railroads own documentation) is the ICC Valuation maps done around 1916. These are gtreat but harder to find and may require a visit to the National Archives branch in College Park, MD outside Wash. DC. Have a blessed holiday, PRR forver! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: FoM Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 13:30:38 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1429 On 12/28/97 2:28 PM, Bob Zoeller (bob@amsignal.com) wrote: >" Was the FOM scheme ever >applied to head-end cars (difficult to believe), or strictly to >passenger-carrying equipment?" > >YES. AT LEAST THE 38 BROADWAY RPO AND B70 BAGGAGE WERE SO DECORATED (AS >MODELLED BY CHALLENGER) Blardone & Tilp's "Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Car Painting & Lettering" (available via the PRRT&HS...cheaper for members!) contains a substantial section on the FoM, including what new cars were purchased and so painted, what older sleepers were upgraded and painted, and what head-end and coach cars were upgraded and painted. This book is a "must have" for any Pennsy passenger modeler...as is the "Pullman Standard Library, Volume 4, Pennsylvania Railroad". Don't forget, there's a FAQ on the "FoM" at "Keystone Crossings"!!! --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: SALE-National Geographics (real cheap) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 13:44:12 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1798 Remember all those National Geographics I have? Well, I'm ready to unload them. I have clipped the railroad ads from them for sale at a later date on eBay. Anyway, if anyone wants them for other ads or for their kids, let me know ASAP! Starting in 1944, I have most issues from every year through present. The early years are in "so so" condition; the middle years in "decent" condition; and anything newer than 1976 or so is in "excellent" condition. In addition, about a 15 years worth (@1980-1992ish) are in leather slip cases. All together, the collection fills 7-8 copier paper boxes. Because of the weight for shipping, these won't fetch a lot via sale at the eBay auction (one year per item is how I would list). Therefore, I am making the entire collection available as one lot to the "PRR-Talk" list subscribers first. Shipping would be at your expense and I would recommend pickup if at all possible. I am located between York and Harrisburg. I will hold up to three months for pickup if prepaid. I am not looking to make any kind of killing on these. I just want to get them out of the house. I will consider any and all offers. Please contact me direct. Thank you. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Media Major not Math Major was Re: NG 150 years CDs .. 1888 + Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 13:54:29 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 2234 On 12/29/97 2:01 PM, Drew R. McGhee (drm6@psu.edu) wrote: >Jerry, it didn't say whether the pages were in PDF or not. > >Sorry about the number of years. What the box said was that it contained >every page of every issue of NG until some recent year in the 1990s. I >thought it said 150 years of NG. It, might have said 100, 110, 120 or >something like that. Just wanted to let the group know about it so they can >look for it, should they be interested. The set of CD roms are being offered >by NG themselves. Will provide all of the details once I get my hands on a >set unless someone else does first. Just went on NG's web site. A description of the product follows, taken from: http://ngsstore.nationalgeographic.com/store/geo/SCIENCE/LEVEL3/bud/83201C. html. "The Complete NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC: 108 Years of NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC Magazine on CD-ROM" Price - $ 179.95 If you took every issue of National Geographic and placed them end to end, they would stand about as tall as the Eiffel Tower. Through the wonders of modern technology, the entire collection is now available in a container roughly the size of a shoebox. The Complete NATIONAL G EOGRAPHIC is a 30 CD-ROM library of every page of every issue from 1888 through 1996. Every article, every photograph, every advertisement, and every page map is presented exactly as it was in print. And with a comprehensive search index on each CD, exploring the Geographic has never been easier. If you have ever been inspired by National Geographic, your CD-ROM collection is incomplete without The Complete N ATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC. Item Number 83201C --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 13:01:19 -0500 From: "Drew R. McGhee" Subject: Media Major not Math Major was Re: NG 150 years CDs .. 1888 + Content-Length: 1384 Greetings to Jerry, Don and the group, Jerry, it didn't say whether the pages were in PDF or not. Sorry about the number of years. What the box said was that it contained every page of every issue of NG until some recent year in the 1990s. I thought it said 150 years of NG. It, might have said 100, 110, 120 or something like that. Just wanted to let the group know about it so they can look for it, should they be interested. The set of CD roms are being offered by NG themselves. Will provide all of the details once I get my hands on a set unless someone else does first. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 06:12 PM 12/28/97 -0600, you wrote: >Drew... > Help... what did NG print prior to 1888? The first NG's were printed on >an irregular basis beginning in 1888. My source it the hardbound (printed by >NG) NG INDEX 1888-1946. > I'm not doubting you, but my math don't figure > Who is producing the CD you are looking into purchasing...??? >don > ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 12:34:09 -0800 From: Stan Feldman Subject: Re: Half G Content-Length: 889 Hello; Does anyone have a picture of the" half G" that they could post, or put on a website ? Stan -- *********************************************************** STAN'S RAILPIX-- Railroad Photo Gallery ! http://www.trainweb.com/railpix ****************************************************** Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it !! *********************************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 15:49:57 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: National Geographic CD-rom Content-Length: 1342 Greetings, For those who are interested, access Click on "from the store" If you took every issue of National Geographic and placed them end to end, they would stand about as tall as the Eiffel Tower. Through the wonders of modern technology, the entire collection is now available in a container roughly the size of a shoebox. The Complete NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC is a 30 CD-ROM library of every page of every issue from 1888 through 1996. Every article, every photograph, every advertisement, and every page map is presented exactly as it was in print. And with a comprehensive search index on each CD, exploring the Geographic has never been easier. If you have ever been inspired by National Geographic, your CD-ROM collection is incomplete without The Complete NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC. Item Number 83201C Price $179.95 Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:04:42 -0500 (EST) From: "James R. Hunter" Subject: RE: The I1 Content-Length: 4585 Gentlemen! Hear, hear! I agree it would be great to swap engines. But just how feasible is this project, and who wil conduct the negotiations? The PA Museum Commission? Jim On 21 Dec 1997, Doug Drew wrote: > Excellent idea, Tom! > I would really hate to see the last I1 sit and deteriorate further while > a bunch of well-meaning amateurs finish off a bunch of other projects > dearer to their hearts, most probably having something to do with the initials > N-Y-C. > The I1 should really be at Strasburg. Personally, I think the I1 is the > engine most representative of the PRR in steam. > -- Doug Drew > > Tom von Trott wrote: > >Thanks for the pictures of the I1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I've been looking > for > >pics of the girl for ever!!! I'm just glad to see she really does > exist. What > >is your opinion on the people who want to move the 4483 down the the > museum in > >Strasburg? As much as I know you folks in New York would hate to lose > the engine > >(I know how I would feel in a similar situation) I also think she > belongs with the > >other PRR steamers in Strasburg. If I were in charge of the museum in > SB I > >would offer the owners of 4483 a swap, I would give them former NKP Berk > 757 (owned > >by the museum) in a clean trade for 4483. I think the Berk would be > more > >appropriate to New York then Eastern PA, and that would bring 4483 home > with the rest of > >the PRR historical collection. She would get a nice cosmetic > restoration I'm > >sure by the Friends of the PARR Museum, and hopefully put inside. Shame > I'm not in > >charge, but do you think they would be at all interested, from a > theoretical > >point of view? > > > >Tom von Trott > > > > > > > >*********** REPLY PARTITION *********** > > > >On 12/20/97, at 10:53 PM, RTSILLER wrote: > > > >>Following the recent thread of saved locos, I figured now was the time > to set > >>up my page on the photos I have of I1 #4483. I only live about 15 > minutes > >>from where it is stored, and it's behind a hobby shop (isn't life > grand), so I > >>ran over and shot a roll of film in October. Please visit the > following page > >>to see the current state of the last remaining I1: > >> > >>http://members.aol.com/rtsiller/PRRinWNY.html > >> > >>This constitutes several firsts for me; my first post to PRR-Talk and > my first > >>web page, so please forgive any format errors. I have gained so much > useful > >>info from this forum, I figured it was time to try and return the > favor. > >> > >>As you can see by the photos, #4483 is a long way from doing anything > other > >>than just sit there. According to someone I talked from the Western > New York > >>Railway Historical Society at the last train show, they still plan on > fixing > >>it up. The problem is, they have so many projects going and #4483 is > not on > >>the top of their list. Last I heard, the WNYRHS was pretty firm on > keeping > >>control of #4483. I'll try to find more info and keep you updated. > >> > >>Please pass on any info or references you may have on #4483, or any > other PRR > >>equipment in Western New York. > >> > >>Happy Holidays, > >>Rick Siller (rtsiller@aol.com) > >> > >>------------------------------------------------------------- > >>Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", > a > >>cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > >>------------------------------------------------------------- > >>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- > >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > > >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > >------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249 Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:08:53 EST Subject: "0" SCALE VS "0" GAUGE AND "0-27" Content-Length: 1794 There are a few "0" scalers out here - the nuance being that those of us who model 1/4" = 1' call ourselves "0" scalers vs "0" Gauge for the tinplaters "3 railers" or "Hi-Railers" "0" scale was at one time regarded as the smallest practical size - remember that the scale is a Numeric Zero not an Alpha O - with number 1 (todays LGB) and number 2 above it. As pointed out in the "Trains Unlimtited" Model episode Josuha Lionel Cowen ( born Cohen ) was upset that people were buying his Lionel engines and running other peoples cars behind them and so he created "Standard" gauge - which was actually a bastard gauge - then promoted it so heavily that other manufacturers had to pay him a license fee to make "Standard" Gauge True "0" scale is 1/4" to the foot although Gauge was simplified to 1 1/4" ( 5' ) early on - you can pretty much model with a standard ruler: 40' box cars should be 10" long and 80' passenger cars should be 20" long - Check your lionels and you'll find that most post war box cars that LOOK LIKE 40 footers actually measure 36' and the newer ones that LIKE 50' are actually 40' Most of the 0-27 cars are actually modeled to 3/16" scale ( S Scale - 1:64 ) - but look OK as long as you don't mix them with actual scale stuff PLEASE REMEMBER THAT SCALE MODELERS CALL THEMSELVES "0" SCALERS - NOT "O" GAUGERS - thanks Dick Ross ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:10:26 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: NGS CD if you don't have the internet Content-Length: 611 Greetings, National Geographic Society has a 1-800-437-5521 number where you can order the 108 year CD-ROM. Item # is 83201C. Price $179.95 + $14 shipping. Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 21:55:09 +0000 Subject: Re: Magazines on CD-ROM From: locoshop@juno.com (Jeremy C Helms) Content-Length: 1222 Steve and group, One thing I have found to be of great use in this arena is to keep one years worth in a loose binder. With the issues over a year or what fits in the binder, I take them out and cut them up. Anything I find that is useful or might prove to be useful is cut out and placed in a plastic sheet protector which is available 50 to a pack for around $4 at your friendly local Wal-Mart (I do NOT work or hold any stock in this company in case any wondered). This greatly decreases the size of my library. Jeremy Helms On Mon, 29 Dec 1997 22:46:44 -0500 Stephen Bartlett writes: > What I wouldn't give for a complete set of Model Railroader >and >Railroad Model Craftsman on CD-ROM!!! I have real space problems with >just these two mags alone. > >Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jim Clay Subject: Centennial History of the PRR Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 17:16:14 -0500 Content-Length: 676 A friend of mine has located a copy of this book published by the PRR in 1949. Anyone have an idea what it's worth? I've yet to see this book at any of the numerous train shows I've attended over the years so I'm at a lost as to it's value. Any help would be most appreciated. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Media Major not Math Major was Re: NG 150 years CDs .. 1888 + Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 17:30:52 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 979 The only thing the box said isn't included on the disks are the fold out maps that were included in many issues... >Just went on NG's web site. A description of the product follows, taken >from: >http://ngsstore.nationalgeographic.com/store/geo/SCIENCE/LEVEL3/bud/83201C. >html. > >"The Complete NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC: 108 Years of NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC >Magazine on CD-ROM" >Price - $ 179.95 >snip... Rob --------------------------------------------------- |Visit my PRR site @ www.internexus.net/~robs/PRR | --------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Centennial History of the PRR Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 18:09:46 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 848 >A friend of mine has located a copy of this book published by the PRR = >in 1949. Anyone have an idea what it's worth? I've yet to see this book = >at any of the numerous train shows I've attended over the years so I'm = >at a lost as to it's value. Any help would be most appreciated. I've seen it at shows for anywhere between $50 and $100 depending on the quality. Most copies in fairly nice shape seem to be in the $75 range... Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Centennial History of the PRR (fwd) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 18:25:55 EST Content-Length: 994 > A friend of mine has located a copy of this book published by the PRR = > in 1949. Anyone have an idea what it's worth? I've yet to see this book = > at any of the numerous train shows I've attended over the years so I'm = > at a lost as to it's value. Any help would be most appreciated. $60 would be low for a book in good condition, a good price for a book in fair to poor condition. $75 is about an average price. $100 would be high unless the book is truly in mint condition, i.e., no one wrote their name in it, pages not dog-eared, etc. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 18:35:37 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: Centennial History of the PRR Content-Length: 1039 On Mon, 29 Dec 1997, Rob Schoenberg wrote: > >A friend of mine has located a copy of this book published by the PRR = > >in 1949. Anyone have an idea what it's worth? I've yet to see this book = > >at any of the numerous train shows I've attended over the years so I'm = > >at a lost as to it's value. Any help would be most appreciated. > > > I've seen it at shows for anywhere between $50 and $100 depending on the quality. > Most copies in fairly nice shape seem to be in the $75 range... I got mine for $30 from an online used book shop. It's in good but not excellent condition. Keep your eyes open for them. -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249 Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 18:45:16 EST Subject: VIDEO: Pennsy Steam & Electric Years Vol. II & "Mail Trains" Content-Length: 964 When you watch these videos COUNT the numbers of X-29s on the head ends of these trains - nearly every train had at least a few - then came the "sealed" baggage and mail cars - then the "working" mail cars The "Railway Express" lettered cars were just a few of the many X-29s which had steam and signal lines for Passenger service Later - in the 60's - you'd find a great many box cars without passenger equipment "SPLICED" on to the rear of lesser trains - in some cases it began to look like coaches "SPLICED" into the middle of a freight train Dick Ross ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Centennial History of the PRR Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 20:28:51 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1019 On 12/29/97 6:16 PM, Jim Clay (jclay@epix.net) wrote: >A friend of mine has located a copy of this book published by the PRR in >1949. Anyone have an idea what it's worth? I've yet to see this book at >any of the numerous train shows I've attended over the years so I'm at a >lost as to it's value. Any help would be most appreciated. I regularly see copies of this go on eBay for around $80. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 19:49:05 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Book Content-Length: 515 Hi all... What is this 1949 PRR book everyone is talking about? H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 21:03:31 -0500 From: Chris Brandt Subject: Re: Half G Content-Length: 1032 Stan Feldman wrote: > > Hello; > Does anyone have a picture of the" half G" that they could > post, or put on a website ? > Stan > -- I won't gum up Jerry's listserv by posting here, so look for a picture of GG1 4846 in the newsgroup alt.binaries.pictures.rail I'll also post it on my website. Happy New Year! -- Chris _______ ____________\ /____________ __________\ P /__________ ___________\ R R /___________ ____________\ /____________ _____________\___/_____________ Chris Brandt cobrandt@eclipse.net http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 19:26:54 -0800 From: Claus Schlund Subject: Re: Centennial History of the PRR (fwd) Content-Length: 1704 I bought my copy in a used book store in Daytona Beach, FL about 6 months ago. It was slightly water damaged, but mostly ok. I bargained with the owner and payed $9.00 for it. Claus Schlund (modeling steam-era PRR in N scale) San Francisco, CA Mark D Bej wrote: > > > A friend of mine has located a copy of this book published by the PRR = > > in 1949. Anyone have an idea what it's worth? I've yet to see this book = > > at any of the numerous train shows I've attended over the years so I'm = > > at a lost as to it's value. Any help would be most appreciated. > > $60 would be low for a book in good condition, a good price for a book in > fair to poor condition. $75 is about an average price. $100 would be high > unless the book is truly in mint condition, i.e., no one wrote their name > in it, pages not dog-eared, etc. > > -- > Mark D. Bej > bejm@eeg.ccf.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help > save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 22:46:44 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Magazines on CD-ROM Content-Length: 1049 Jerry_Britton wrote: > > Just went on NG's web site. ..... > "The Complete NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC: 108 Years of NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC > Magazine on CD-ROM" > If you took every issue of National Geographic and placed them end to > end, they would stand about as tall as the Eiffel Tower. Through the > wonders of modern technology, the entire collection is now available in > a container roughly the size of a shoebox. ----------------------------- What I wouldn't give for a complete set of Model Railroader and Railroad Model Craftsman on CD-ROM!!! I have real space problems with just these two mags alone. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 22:50:28 EST Subject: Re: Centennial History of the PRR Content-Length: 1627 In a message dated 97-12-29 18:05:17 EST, you write: << A friend of mine has located a copy of this book published by the PRR in 1949. Anyone have an idea what it's worth? I've yet to see this book at any of the numerous train shows I've attended over the years so I'm at a lost as to it's value. Any help would be most appreciated. >> Jim, Burgess & Kennedy's Centennial History of the PRR Co., 1846-1946 (Prr Co., 1949) is easily found in web searchs of used book lists, both railroad specialists such as Mitchell's and Como's and general booksellers such as Barnes & Noble and Amazon. While I have seen prices as low as $45, usually it can be had for from $65-$75. Remember that this was a PRR commissioned history self-published by the PRR Co., it is most accurate when talking about the PRR but gets shaky when lines pass out of Pennsy control. example: In talking about the PRR-built Lorain, Ashland & Southern, Burgess & Kennedy say the line from the port of Lorain south to the Fort Wayne mainline was abandoned in 1927 after 14 years of operation. However, Kalmbach's reprint of the Rand McNally Railroad Atlas of the U.S.shows more than half of the 61-mile line still in use. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 22:53:48 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: "0" SCALE VS "0" GAUGE AND "0-27" Content-Length: 678 VVA249 wrote: > > .....PLEASE REMEMBER THAT SCALE MODELERS CALL THEMSELVES "0" SCALERS - NOT "O" > GAUGERS - thanks > It is primarily so that we can retain our identity and reduce confusion when we are discussing our particular place in the hobby. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 23:04:27 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Some more questions Content-Length: 1151 Bob Zoeller wrote: ".....being a passenger operation afficionado, Ft. Wayne offered a lot of setouts and pickups of express/mail cars (and my favorite, milk cars, although descriptions of those operations are sketchy in my part of the country) , shuffling of other trains like (in the 40's) the Southland, Grand Rapids locals, etc. Detroit line and Richmond, IN lines junctioned just East and West of the city...." This has been mentioned a few months ago, but may be worth suggesting again. John Armstrong had a very interesting plan for a railroad based closely on the PRR in Richmond, Indiana, in the Kalmbach book _18 Taylor-Made Track Plans_. He put it around the perimeter of a 17 1/2 by 26 1/2 foot space. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Centennial History of the PRR (fwd) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 23:46:29 EST Content-Length: 864 > Wow - think I bought mine direct from the "Estate" of the PRR - from an add in > "Trains" in the 60's - for $ 5.00 - including shipping > Dick Ross Dick, you bought yours at a fire sale. They would have sold you the statue of J. Edgar Thomson for $100 if it were still around. You're also mellowed enough (note I said "mellowed", not that _other_ adjective) to have been _around_ and _capable of buying_ in 1970 ... -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 21:50:11 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: FoM Content-Length: 2541 Bob Zoeller wrote: > > Doug Drew writes: > > "Did Rivarossi once do some of their streamline cars in FOM? Any idea of > how it came out?" > > YES. BUDD CORRUGATED SIDES WERE DONE IN HO. > > " Did any heavyweight equipment with the > more typical ends also have this scheme applied?" > > YES. OTHERS CAN GIVE BETTER DETAILS THAN ME. > > " Was the FOM scheme ever > applied to head-end cars (difficult to believe), or strictly to > passenger-carrying equipment?" > > YES. AT LEAST THE 38 BROADWAY RPO AND B70 BAGGAGE WERE SO DECORATED (AS MODELLED BY CHALLENGER) > > Bob Zoeller > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help > save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Bob, IHC did the following HO cars in FoM (HW=heavyweight, SS=smoothside, CS= corrugated/fluted side) [I have them in my collection]: IHC Prod# Description --------- ----------- 6860 CS diner #4501 6860-1 CS diner #4500 6861 CS coach #4010 6861-1 CS coach #4017 6862 CS Pullman #4022 6862-1 CS Pullman #4020 6863 CS CS observation #1126 6864 CS coach #4019 6865 CS Pullman #4013 6866 SS Pullman Roomette -- LANCASTER COUNTY 6867 HW Pullman JAMES LOGAN (name should have been JAMES MADISON) 6868 HW baggage (REA) #6042 6869 HW RPO #6522 The baggage and RPO were done in monotone tusan with gold Futura lettering as was PRR practice for head end equipment during the FoM era. Rumor has it that in real life, one RPO was painted in the two-tone FoM paint, but no one can be sure which one it is as no photos of it have surfaced. There were other cars slated to be done by IHC in FoM colors, but they were never produced. If anyone knows of others that IHC did, I'd like to know which ones. Charlie Fox ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: PRRTHS Cyber Chapter: Status Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 0:54:35 EST Content-Length: 1405 Guys: Here's what I have so far. 20 PRRTHS Members in support of Cyber Chapter Bartlett, Bej, Britton, Brooks, Copeland, Friendlein, Freshwater, Helms, Keel, Knepper, Laird, Leary, McGee, Minton, Morgan, Mummert, Ross, Schlund, Siller, VogelR, Vondruska 7 PRRTHS Nonmembers in support of Cyber Chapter Dugas, Futch, Poortinga, Rosenbauer, Smith, Wangen, Whitehouse 4 Unknown status in support of Cyber Chapter McCall, Schoenberb, Shickler, VogelC Total potential members: 31 ------ INCOMPLETE INFO ON: Knepper (address) McCall, Schoenberg, Shickler (address, PRRTHS membership status) VogelC (PRRTHS membership status) ------ This may be my impression only, but there seems to be a large number of Cyber Chapter supporters who are "far" from the "traditional" strongholds of the PRRTHS. E.g., only 4 from Pa., 4 from Ohio. I sure think we have enough people for a chapter. We may even beat out some of the older ones. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: S & L (fwd) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 1:35:28 EST Content-Length: 2030 > Happy holidays all, > Could someone possibily inform about the PRR in Lewistown. For my high > school graduation project I am modeling the S & L(Sunbury & Lewistown > Railroad). Is there a yard at Lewistown and of what size is it? Is it > comparable to the Northumberland Yard? On this note, exactly how big was > the Northumberland yard anyway? One last question: was there a yard or > sizable station at Milroy? Brandon, I don't know what is/was in Milroy, though I've passed thru the town on 522 a hundred times. Lewistown Yard is small, maybe 20 tracks, max, with small engine facilities. Whether it used to have an engine shed/roundhouse I don't know; there is not one there now. The yard is on the north side of what used to be a 4-track main line, 3-tracked in the 50s or early 60s, 2-tracked under Conrail. The passenger station is I believe the oldest PRR passenger station in existence, if not the oldest PRR structure in existence. Northumberland Yard is considerably larger than Lewistown, probably 3x bigger (I say this not being terribly well familiar with Northumberland). Lewistown had the S&L branch "coming off the yard", practically. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org Clinical Associate, Section of Epilepsy & Sleep Disorders Epilepsy Research Fellow, Section of Neurological Computing Department of Neurology Phone (216) 445-2565 Cleveland Clinic Foundation S-51 Operator (216) 444-2200 bpr 24095 9500 Euclid Ave. Fax (216) 445-6617 (public) Cleveland, Ohio 44195 U.S.A. Voice mail (216) 444-0119 (nonclinical only) ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Layout Design Software Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 1:55:22 EST Content-Length: 567 Guys: Last MRR, I saw ads for 3 different layout design programs. Any of you have any experience with them? Any recommendations or disrecommendations? -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 07:50:36 +0000 Subject: Re: Layout Design Software From: locoshop@juno.com (Jeremy C Helms) Content-Length: 3308 Mark and all, Good morning to y'all from overcast Nebraska. I wanted to let you know and give you a review on CadRail. I had purchased this program right before the upgrade to the newer program, so I picked mine up for around $60. I had read the old reviews on this and felt it was well worth the money since I loved designing layouts. Well let me tell you what, I love it even more now. I would highly recommend this program to anyone with a PC that is either planning your layout or finding a dream layout. The program does take a little time to get to understand though. It is a CAD program and therefore has LOTS of tools. Once these tools are figured out, what they are and how to use them, the program is a jewel. The program comes with (older version) a 140 page manual to help you get started. I do recommend going through the book cause it helps you understand the program a lot better. As for what you can do with the program? Just about anything including run a train on your layout after if is designed. The are tools to make lines (freehand, intersecting, tangent off of circle), circles (whole circles, partial circles, intersecting circles), EASEMENTS (this is VERY handy if you plan on using easements on your layout, the computer does all the work for you), adding whole figures to the layout (a figure can be any number of lines, circles, partial circles, or easements that added together make something that you do not want to change, like a building or yard, and it is very easy to move the figure and rotate it), and text (to label your layout, elevations or buildings). This is a three-dimensional program where you can even put in elevations and rotate the whole layout to look at it. This will also help in figuring the grade on the lines. There are actually 10 different colors to work with and 7 different styles of lines (thin line, medium line, heavy line, dashed line, and more). With all these colors you can block out certain ones from viewing when working on the layout. With this blocking option you can make one color for one thing, like green is benchwork, red is track, blue is buildings and so on. With this option you can design the whole layout on one program name and have everything right there. With the printing option you can chose your size you want the program printed, even full size so you can actually lay the track on top of the sheets (quite handy for those easements that the computer does for you). Sorry about the length but there is a lot to like about this program. On a five star basis I would give it 6 stars. Jeremy Helms On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 1:55:22 EST Mark D Bej writes: > >Guys: > >Last MRR, I saw ads for 3 different layout design programs. Any of >you >have any experience with them? Any recommendations or >disrecommendations? > >-- >Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: S & L (fwd) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 97 08:00:27 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1754 On 12/30/97 2:35 AM, Mark D Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote: >I don't know what is/was in Milroy, though I've passed thru the town on >522 a hundred times. That's "322". A lot pf produce/farm related stuff on this line. Station was probably quite small. Was only a "short line" into Lewistown where it met the PRR. > >Lewistown Yard is small, maybe 20 tracks, max, with small engine facilities. >Whether it used to have an engine shed/roundhouse I don't know; there is not >one there now. The yard is on the north side of what used to be a 4-track >main line, 3-tracked in the 50s or early 60s, 2-tracked under Conrail. >The passenger station is I believe the oldest PRR passenger station in >existence, if not the oldest PRR structure in existence. The stretch between Lewistown and Burnham had some steel making facilities. Much still stands. The roadbed between Lewistown and Burnham is still visible, along a meandering stream beneath Rt. 322. Though it's been scraped clean, I remember seeing it on the way to PSU football games when it was still ballasted with beautiful white stone. That's right, "white" stone. Was quite a sight! --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Layout Design Software Date: Tue, 30 Dec 97 08:09:15 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 971 On 12/30/97 2:55 AM, Mark D Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote: >Last MRR, I saw ads for 3 different layout design programs. Any of you >have any experience with them? Any recommendations or disrecommendations? I recall some of the ads, but don't recall who all they were from. Atlas' "Right Track" is a joke. Currently I am using a plastic template which is working out real well. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Northern Central P-Trains in 1954? Date: Tue, 30 Dec 97 08:55:07 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 2406 Due to the amount of information available, I seem to be settling in to modeling the Northern Central Railway in 1954. I recently acquired a Maryland Division Employee Timetable dated September 1954, which includes the line from Baltimore through Wago Junction (where it meets the Philly Div.) with times extended to Enola/Harrisburg. I also have an April 1954 public timetable for passenger trains. Browsing over the two prompts me to ask a few questions: Both timetables show six passenger trains in each direction. Each has multiple names...either because they are no longer separate trains due to fewer passengers or they carry cars from Washington/Baltimore to Harrisburg which are shifted to separate trains for their respective continued trips. However, a few of the train names present in the April timetable are absent in the September timetable. The train numbers still exist, as do the other names for the same train. Was this due to the trains being permanently discontinued, or were they seasonal trains? The trains in question are The Northerner, The Southerner, The Dominion Express. What was the northern/western destination/origination of these trains? (I suspect Buffalo for one or more.) It would appear that The Northerner and The Southerner are the same train, scheduled for opposite directions. Was there an "opposite" for The Dominion Express? FYI: Named trains appearing in both timetables include (but are not limited to): The Liberty Limited, The Red Arrow, The Gotham Limited, The Pennsylvanian, The Spirit of St. Louis, The St. Louisan, The Duquesne, The Penn Texas, etc. I also discovered that there were no dedicated mail trains in this time period. Mail was only handled by three trains...and they were all south/east bound! --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 09:23:05 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Re: Layout Design Software Content-Length: 968 At 01:55 AM 12/30/97 EST, you wrote: > >Guys: > >Last MRR, I saw ads for 3 different layout design programs. Any of you >have any experience with them? Any recommendations or disrecommendations? > >-- >Mark Greetings, I would have one question, how many of these programs are authored by people who have prize winning layouts???? Save your money, get the articles written by Frank Ellison, Roy Dohn and Doug Smith in Model Railroad magazine long ago. If you need specific references e-mail me..... Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Sunbury & Lewistown Branch Date: Tue, 30 Dec 97 13:12:36 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 2263 On 12/30/97 1:48 PM, Hal6963 (Hal6963@aol.com) wrote: >Dont forget the Peen Valley Pictures Video >Volume 2 - The S & L Story: "Follow the trip on a daily run of a local fright >train as it makes its way through the rich farm lands of Snyder County, >Pennsylvania over the Sunbury to Lewistown Branchof the Old Pennsylvania >Railroad. This documented story shows the train leaving the PRR yards at >Northumberland and its workings along the branch to McClure, and return. The >train is headed by H-9 and H-10 steam locomotives. The original color film >was >taken in 1954-55, 42 min long. For modeling purposes, the Lewiston/Milroy area is really interesting. You start with the junction with the Pennsy main at Lewistown. You could set up a four track loop of mainline trains, with most of it hidden; only the passenger station/junction area exposed. You've got the steel and other industry in Lewistown, then that beautiful white roadbed line to Burnham and into Milroy. With modelers license, one could imagine the line extending further to the northwest, crossing the Seven Mountains a la Horseshoe Curve style, to reach State College and beyond. Would open operations to helper service, passenger extras to Penn State games, etc. There was a lot of iron and limestone taken out of the area around State College (Scotia, Bellefonte), so you could account for the need for the line. In actuality, the ore went out via the Bellefonte Central, which interchanged with the PRR at Bellefonte via the Bald Eagle Branch (Loch Haven to Tyrone) now operated by the Nittany & Bald Eagle. Football extras took this route as late as 1963. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:17:07 -0500 From: "Drew R. McGhee" Subject: NG CD ROMS Content-Length: 1725 Greetings to Jerry and the group, Jerry, thanks for the definitive description of the NG CD ROM set. Just a reminder to everyone, the Sam's Club here is selling the set for $150.00. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 01:54 PM 12/29/97 -0400, Jerry_Britton wrote: >Just went on NG's web site. A description of the product follows, taken >from: >http://ngsstore.nationalgeographic.com/store/geo/SCIENCE/LEVEL3/bud/83201C. >html. > >"The Complete NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC: 108 Years of NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC >Magazine on CD-ROM" >Price - $ 179.95 > > If you took every issue of National Geographic and placed them end to >end, they would stand about as tall as the Eiffel Tower. Through the >wonders of modern technology, the entire collection is now available in >a container roughly the size of a shoebox. The Complete NATIONAL G >EOGRAPHIC is a 30 CD-ROM library of every page of every issue from 1888 >through 1996. Every article, every photograph, every advertisement, and >every page map is presented exactly as it was in print. And with a >comprehensive search index on each CD, exploring the Geographic has >never been easier. If you have ever been inspired by National >Geographic, your CD-ROM collection is incomplete without The Complete N >ATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC. > >Item Number 83201C ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:17:18 -0500 From: "Drew R. McGhee" Subject: Re: Centennial History of the PRR Content-Length: 2298 Greetings to Jim and the group, In the 70s, there was a reprint made, I believe by Kalmbach, of this book. The original was printed in 1949 by the PRR. The reprint should have at least one additional page for the reprint date, publisher and coyright. The rest should be as the original. I seem to remember that the reprint was printed on glossy, magizine like, paper. The original was not. I've seen the original PRR editions go for less than $100.00 at train shows. The copy I picked up this year cost $90.00 and it is in near mint condition. The pages are just beginning to yellow, a sign of acid paper. It's funny, I never see very many of the reprints. Maybe they are more rare. I picked up the older (1927 print date) _Growth and Development of the PRR 1846-1926_ by Schotter for quite a bit less than the Centennial History book. The Schotter book also seems to be more readidly available train shows than the Centennial book at least around these parts. Both the Schotter book and the Centennial History book are a must. They do not duplicate the history as much as you would think. Another must have book that is even more rare at train shows, even though a reprint of it was produced in 1975, is _PRR Its Origin, Construction Condition and Connections_ by Wm. Sipes originally printed in 1875. It is excellent book for providing the early histories of the towns that the PRR passed. This book will not be enjoyed by you Lines West types. Coverage ends at Pittsburg. (It didn't have the 'H' in 1875!) Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 05:16 PM 12/29/97 -0500, Jim Clay wrote: >A friend of mine has located a copy of this book published by the PRR in 1949. Anyone have an idea what it's worth? I've yet to see this book at any of the numerous train shows I've attended over the years so I'm at a lost as to it's value. Any help would be most appreciated. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:17:30 -0500 From: "Drew R. McGhee" Subject: Re: Layout Design Software Content-Length: 1628 Greetings to Mark and the group, About four years ago, I bought CadRail from Sandia Software. It works like a CAD program and should not be considered 'edutainment' software though you can run and switch trains on the layout you designed. To take FULL advantage of CadRail, plan to spend some time learning it. If you have worked with any CAD programs before or upperend drawing programs, it's not to bad. I have not upgradded to the CD ROM version 6 of the program yet. Hope to do that this year. The only problem that I have not been able to solve is to get it to make an easement properly. (I have the first Windows version. I think it's version 4.) I haven't tried any other porduct but did take some time to look closely to other products' claims before I decided on CadRail. The only time I resorted to call the help line, I received help immediatly from the owner/software writer himself! I'm happy with my purchase and plan to make the upgrade to version 6. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 01:55 AM 12/30/97 EST, Mark D Bej wrote: >Guys: >Last MRR, I saw ads for 3 different layout design programs. Any of you >have any experience with them? Any recommendations or disrecommendations? >Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963 Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:48:34 EST Subject: Re: S & L Content-Length: 963 Dont forget the Peen Valley Pictures Video Volume 2 - The S & L Story: "Follow the trip on a daily run of a local fright train as it makes its way through the rich farm lands of Snyder County, Pennsylvania over the Sunbury to Lewistown Branchof the Old Pennsylvania Railroad. This documented story shows the train leaving the PRR yards at Northumberland and its workings along the branch to McClure, and return. The train is headed by H-9 and H-10 steam locomotives. The original color film was taken in 1954-55, 42 min long. Harold McGee Gainesville, FL ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Looking for Passenger Consist Reports from 1950s Date: Tue, 30 Dec 97 15:12:56 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1192 I'm looking for passenger consist reports from the 1950s. Such reports would (should) include motive power and class/type of each car in the consist. Helpful would be car numbers or names. If anyone has a source, let me know. Then we can discuss specific trains. (My interest is trains that travelled the Northern Central route between Harrisburg and Baltimore/Washington.) FYI: I have seen Wayner's book on "Passenger Train Consists of the 1940s" as well as the Rails Northeast issue that profiled the "Liberty Limited" and included numerous reports for that train, including one from 1953. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RLMower Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:24:37 EST Subject: Re: Half "G" again, and again ! Content-Length: 1024 In a message dated 97-12-28 19:58:21 EST, you write: << Thats a new twist........or a good way of displaying one that hit the floor ! ops......Sounds like the wizard of Monterey (California) John Allen.........Or if it doesn't run any more....you could cut it long ways, and lay it up against the back drop....it would look like you had more G's............. ( a little spoof ) :>) >> I did a similar thing with a roundhouse that was against a wall. The shorter stalls were too short for a locomotive but viola! cut a diesel in half (in the middle) and you have two stalls filled with parked engines. Randy ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963 Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:29:26 EST Subject: IHC PRR Passenger Cars Content-Length: 1248 All of the following are out of production. I talked to IHC this week and they said they were looking for a new manufacturer. The still have a few of the heavy weights as does Train World. You may be able to find some of the at local hobby shops. Partial List from IHC 1993 Catalog, I have the rest if any one is interested. There are a total of 54 different PRR cars in the catalog. The other series included Fleet of Modernism, Smooth Side Tuscan, Through Service Specialty Cars, and 1920s Heavyweights. PRR "Congressional/Senator" (corrugated sides) 6730 Grill, # 4525 6731 Coach, "Miles Standish" 6732 Roomette, "Thomas A. Edison" 6733 Observation, "George Washington" 6734 Coach, "Wm. Penn" 6735 Roomette, "Matthias W. Baldwin" 6736 Pullman, "Robert R. Livingston" 6614 Pullman "John Hancock" Harold McGee Gainesville, FL ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JDPanza Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:30:48 EST Subject: Re: Centennial History of the PRR Content-Length: 847 In a message dated 97-12-29 18:05:17 EST, jclay@epix.net writes: << A friend of mine has located a copy of this book published by the PRR in 1949. Anyone have an idea what it's worth? I've yet to see this book at any of the numerous train shows I've attended over the years so I'm at a lost as to it's value. Any help would be most appreciated.>> I purchased mine at a Railroadiana trade show in Itasca, IL four years ago for $15.00. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:02:59 -0600 From: Bob Webber Subject: Duplicates again? Content-Length: 541 It seems like the dreaded double posts are happening again. I have received duplicate posts for most of the ones sent out today. Bob Webber ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:10:03 -0500 Subject: Re: PRRTHS Cyber Chapter: Status From: carl-vic-vogel@juno.com (Carl K Vogel) Content-Length: 2327 Mark: I am not a member of any PRRTHS chapter. In fact, until I joined PRR-Talk and this thread came up, I did not know they existed!! I have never seen the "Keystone". Oh....get those flame guns out!! It might be an interesting combination...PRR talk and PRRTHS. I hope this helps. Thanks, Carl K.Vogel Recently Reinstated Chief Engineer Taunton & Tuckerton Railway On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 0:54:35 EST Mark D Bej writes: > >Guys: >Here's what I have so far. > >20 PRRTHS Members in support of Cyber Chapter > Bartlett, Bej, Britton, Brooks, Copeland, Friendlein, Freshwater, >Helms, > Keel, Knepper, Laird, Leary, McGee, Minton, Morgan, Mummert, > Ross, Schlund, Siller, VogelR, Vondruska > >7 PRRTHS Nonmembers in support of Cyber Chapter > Dugas, Futch, Poortinga, Rosenbauer, Smith, Wangen, Whitehouse > >4 Unknown status in support of Cyber Chapter > McCall, Schoenberb, Shickler, VogelC > >Total potential members: 31 > >------ >INCOMPLETE INFO ON: >Knepper (address) >McCall, Schoenberg, Shickler (address, PRRTHS membership status) >VogelC (PRRTHS membership status) >------ > >This may be my impression only, but there seems to be a large number >of >Cyber Chapter supporters who are "far" from the "traditional" >strongholds >of the PRRTHS. E.g., only 4 from Pa., 4 from Ohio. > >I sure think we have enough people for a chapter. We may even beat >out >some of the older ones. > >-- >Mark D. Bej >bejm@eeg.ccf.org > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help > >save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:31:30 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: Some more questions Content-Length: 2082 Bob Zoeller wrote: > > I agree. I like the Chicago Division, having grown up in the city. > But, being a passenger operation afficionado, Ft. Wayne offered a lot > of setouts and pickups of express/mail cars (and my favorite, milk > cars, although descriptions of those operations are sketchy in my part > of the country) , shuffling of other trains like (in the 40's) the > Southland, Grand Rapids locals, etc. Detroit line and Richmond, IN > lines junctioned just East and West of the city. > Also, although I am working on a club layout until my new wife and I > get a home, I am conscious of not biting off more than I can chew when > I build my own layout. > Although I like the Lines East 4-track steam + electric+ diesel etc., > I know I cannot personally do a 4-track main plus catenary, nor afford > it plus electric locos as well as steam. And I can tell you that I > killed the club's dream to have 4-track main when I explained the > costs of crossovers! > And besides, there are those T1s and Q2s (big sigh)! > Main thing I would miss would be Eastern scenery (I lived in both > Pittsburgh and Philly at one time, so I am not immune to the charms). > I might use some modeler's license and move a stone arch bridge to > Indiana. > > Bob Zoeller > Fox Point, WI > Let me do a little research. I believe we may find some stone arch bridges in Indiana. I have also found the PRR had COVERED RAILROAD BRIDGES in Indiana. That will be fun to model. Indiana has parts that are not very flat. Ask anyone who rode the PRR up the Madison Hill. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS/PRRT&HS ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:31:58 EST Subject: Re: "0" SCALE VS "0" GAUGE AND "0-27" Content-Length: 2533 In a message dated 97-12-29 17:57:39 EST, WA249 wrote: << Subj: "0" SCALE VS "0" GAUGE AND "0-27" From: VVA249@AOL.COM (VVA249) Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com There are a few "0" scalers out here - the nuance being that those of us who model 1/4" = 1' call ourselves "0" scalers vs "0" Gauge for the tinplaters "3 railers" or "Hi-Railers" "0" scale was at one time regarded as the smallest practical size - remember that the scale is a Numeric Zero not an Alpha O - with number 1 (todays LGB) and number 2 above it. As pointed out in the "Trains Unlimtited" Model episode Josuha Lionel Cowen ( born Cohen ) was upset that people were buying his Lionel engines and running other peoples cars behind them and so he created "Standard" gauge - which was actually a bastard gauge - then promoted it so heavily that other manufacturers had to pay him a license fee to make "Standard" Gauge True "0" scale is 1/4" to the foot although Gauge was simplified to 1 1/4" ( 5' ) early on - you can pretty much model with a standard ruler: 40' box cars should be 10" long and 80' passenger cars should be 20" long - Check your lionels and you'll find that most post war box cars that LOOK LIKE 40 footers actually measure 36' and the newer ones that LIKE 50' are actually 40' Most of the 0-27 cars are actually modeled to 3/16" scale ( S Scale - 1:64 ) - but look OK as long as you don't mix them with actual scale stuff PLEASE REMEMBER THAT SCALE MODELERS CALL THEMSELVES "0" SCALERS - NOT "O" GAUGERS - thanks Dick Ross >> My favorite modelers in the MR and RMC magazines of the '40's and '50's were those who used the 1-1/4" "0" track gauge, but squared things up by modeling at 17/64"-to-the-foot, so that the track gauge scaled at 4.705882353 ft. compared to the "real" measure of 4.708333333 ft. (56-1/2 inches). The difference was quite perceptible when you got to that 80' long passenger car: 80/64" = 1.25 inches longer for the 17/64" scale over a 1/4" scale car. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA and Niles IL ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:42:20 EST Subject: Re: Centennial History of the PRR (fwd) Content-Length: 707 I somehow managed to get hold of two copies of Burgess & Kennedy! About 8-9 years ago, I unloaded one at a NRHS Phila Chapter auction (which were famous for low final sale prices). The book still went for about $65. I highly recommend this book to anyone on the list who doesn't have it. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:57:34 -0500 From: "John E. Moore" Subject: Book Store Content-Length: 473 Just found a site at Infoseek. Try http://home.att.net/~jrmilnot/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Layout design software: new Q Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:26:08 EST Content-Length: 990 OK, guys. 4-5 responders love CADrail. Yes, I'd previously seen the Atlas program in hobby stores, but I know Atlas, Atlas is a good friend of mine, and I expected Atlas to allow you to do things only with Atlas SnapPiecesParts, nothing more. No surprise. Typical Atlas. The Micro$oft of the model train world. Now for my question. One of the other layout design programs looked to be fairly simple, but the other appeared reasonably sophisticated (for about the same price as CADrail, as I recall). Does anyone have _any_ opinion on anything other than CADrail. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 00:10:12 EST Subject: Re: Centennial History of the PRR Content-Length: 1205 In a message dated 97-12-30 21:42:19 EST, you write: << It also shows the LA&S ending (north end) at Oberlin. How did their trains get to Lorain? Or didn't they? >> Ialso tracedthe line through lmaps of the the Ohio Atlas & Gazetteer which show both abandoned railine and "old railroad grades." On each map I started by looking for lines matching the alignment for the LA&S shown on the 1923 system map that Dan Cupper used for the gatefold of the Philly PRRT&HS chapter's PRR150th anniversay book. In the 1948 R-McN reprint the line matching the LA&S was called the Lorain & West Virginia and ends at Wellington and Lorain. It is possible that the entire LA&S was abandoned but the right-of-way sold intact to a party able to get PUCO to reactivatethe line under news owners. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Joe Gotaskie" Subject: Re: The I1 Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 00:16:08 -0500 Content-Length: 4545 If I remember correctly from reading a report in a recent Keystone, from the museum, they are already trying to obtain the I1 for their collection. Joe ---------- > From: James R. Hunter > To: Doug Drew > Cc: PRR-Talk ; RTSILLER ; Tomvon Trott > Subject: RE: The I1 > Date: Monday, December 29, 1997 4:04 PM > > Gentlemen! > > Hear, hear! I agree it would be great to swap engines. But just > how feasible is this project, and who wil conduct the negotiations? The > PA Museum Commission? > > Jim > > > > On 21 Dec 1997, Doug Drew wrote: > > > Excellent idea, Tom! > > I would really hate to see the last I1 sit and deteriorate further while > > a bunch of well-meaning amateurs finish off a bunch of other projects > > dearer to their hearts, most probably having something to do with the initials > > N-Y-C. > > The I1 should really be at Strasburg. Personally, I think the I1 is the > > engine most representative of the PRR in steam. > > -- Doug Drew > > > > Tom von Trott wrote: > > >Thanks for the pictures of the I1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I've been looking > > for > > >pics of the girl for ever!!! I'm just glad to see she really does > > exist. What > > >is your opinion on the people who want to move the 4483 down the the > > museum in > > >Strasburg? As much as I know you folks in New York would hate to lose > > the engine > > >(I know how I would feel in a similar situation) I also think she > > belongs with the > > >other PRR steamers in Strasburg. If I were in charge of the museum in > > SB I > > >would offer the owners of 4483 a swap, I would give them former NKP Berk > > 757 (owned > > >by the museum) in a clean trade for 4483. I think the Berk would be > > more > > >appropriate to New York then Eastern PA, and that would bring 4483 home > > with the rest of > > >the PRR historical collection. She would get a nice cosmetic > > restoration I'm > > >sure by the Friends of the PARR Museum, and hopefully put inside. Shame > > I'm not in > > >charge, but do you think they would be at all interested, from a > > theoretical > > >point of view? > > > > > >Tom von Trott > > > > > > > > > > > >*********** REPLY PARTITION *********** > > > > > >On 12/20/97, at 10:53 PM, RTSILLER wrote: > > > > > >>Following the recent thread of saved locos, I figured now was the time > > to set > > >>up my page on the photos I have of I1 #4483. I only live about 15 > > minutes > > >>from where it is stored, and it's behind a hobby shop (isn't life > > grand), so I > > >>ran over and shot a roll of film in October. Please visit the > > following page > > >>to see the current state of the last remaining I1: > > >> > > >>http://members.aol.com/rtsiller/PRRinWNY.html > > >> > > >>This constitutes several firsts for me; my first post to PRR-Talk and > > my first > > >>web page, so please forgive any format errors. I have gained so much > > useful > > >>info from this forum, I figured it was time to try and return the > > favor. > > >> > > >>As you can see by the photos, #4483 is a long way from doing anything > > other > > >>than just sit there. According to someone I talked from the Western > > New York > > >>Railway Historical Society at the last train show, they still plan on > > fixing > > >>it up. The problem is, they have so many projects going and #4483 is > > not on > > >>the top of their list. Last I heard, the WNYRHS was pretty firm on > > keeping > > >>control of #4483. I'll try to find more info and keep you updated. > > >> > > >>Please pass on any info or references you may have on #4483, or any > > other PRR > > >>equipment in Western New York. > > >> > > >>Happy Holidays, > > >>Rick Siller (rtsiller@aol.com) > > >> > > >>------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", > > a > > >>cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 00:28:08 EST Subject: Re: Some more questions Content-Length: 1459 IBob Zoeller wrote: << Main thing I would miss would be Eastern scenery (I lived in both > Pittsburgh and Philly at one time, >> Bob, If its mountains you want, try the Jeffersonville, Madison & Indianapolis mainline in southern Indiana, The Vincennes branch in southwestern Indiana, the Marietta branch in Southeast Ohio. The Cincinnati, Lebanon & northern, part of the PRR's Pennsylvania, Ohio & Detroit RR entered downtown Cincinnati via a 1,000-foot tunnel through Walnut Hill. And Larry Morgan, Todd Horton and I can personally attest to the rugged nature of the Madison, Ind., grade and cut since we walked its 7,200fot length thisaafternoon (Tuesday Dec. 30). After descending through a cut dug 150' deep into limestone with sledge hammers, hand drills and black powder, the Madison branch debauches onto a 200-foot-high fill, all at a 5.89% grade. That it was cut by hand is a testiment to man's spirit or short sightedness. Larry and I are talking about anotherfield trip in the spring, To Crestline! Tom Vondruska. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: PrrCyberChap Update Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 0:54:46 EST Content-Length: 1068 Guys: More votes have come in. I now have: 29 PRRTHS members voting for, 13 PRRTHS nonmembers voting for, -- 42 total potential members. I should have done this before. I've put the list of names up on a page, http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/cyber.html Please check to make sure your name, address, email are correct. THE FOLLOWING PERSONS please email me with the items listed with "?"s on the page above: Campbell, Crim, "Demaclean", Knepper, Miller, Zappa Brandt, McCall (also status of vote), Rockwell, Shickler, VogelK Sorry, may have missed corrections for Shickler and VogelK - will be checking back email immediately. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Hanover Junction Date: Wed, 31 Dec 97 08:09:29 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1516 On the Northern Central line, between New Freedom, Pa., and York, Pa., is Hanover Junction...the site of the (perhaps) famous photo showing Lincoln on his way to/from Gettysburg to deliver the Gerrysburg Address. The NCR approaches from the south and veers east at the junction. The Gettysburg and Hanover Railroad (later the Western Maryland) vears west at the junction. The station sits in between. Amazingly, the original station still stands and is being restored as a park office for the Rail/Trail. Anyway, the Western Maryland tracks are long gone...but when? Does anyone know when they were removed? A CT1000E for 1945 should indicate if the interchange existed at that point. Can someone please look this up? I am trying to establish of these tracks were still there in 1953-54. As of that date, passenger trains were no longer stopping at Hanover Junction. Also no mention of freight locals. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 08:37:49 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Re: Layout Design Software Content-Length: 1572 Greetings, I guess this question hit me at a bad time. I find myself spending too much time at the computer. What with "PRR-Talk" and trying to develop a program for scheduling my layout, the layout is becoming neglected. I am concerned that many will waste too much time at the keyboard and not enough time in the layout room. There's nothing like experience with a layout, of any kind, to make one realize where it is not meeting their expectations. You can draw as many layouts as desired, but will not realize the problems until a train is operated. In the good old days BC, before computers, people somehow managed to get some good layouts developed. This was partly because they studied the actual railroads rather than trying to cram as much track in as possible on a computer screen. My new years resolution is to spend more time away from the computer than at present. On to the train room, constantly refining, maybe even tearing out some track and relaying it for better operation. Get the rest of the ballast down, plant some trees, build some auto roadays so on and so on. Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Layout Design Software Date: Wed, 31 Dec 97 09:48:24 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1416 On 12/31/97 9:37 AM, s.a. mccall (hosam@gc.net) wrote: > I guess this question hit me at a bad time. I find myself spending too >much time at the computer. What with "PRR-Talk" and trying to develop a >program for scheduling my layout, the layout is becoming neglected. Maybe we should start a "Railroad/Computing Addictions" list!!! ;-) Since my intended layout room is not yet ready, and I do not yet have enough "discretionary income" to spend on the initial benchwork and track, the computer provides me with "satisfaction" that I am somehow making progress. For one thing, I am collecting a tremendous amount of data that will make my future layout more prototypical. However, once I "break ground", I will likely face the same question that you now face...and have to prioritize 'net vs. layout. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Looking for 1954 Public Timetable Date: Wed, 31 Dec 97 10:28:43 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 824 Does anyone have a public timetable of east-west passenger trains from 1954? Prefer April timeframe. I'd appreciate a photocopy in its entirety, or the chance to borrow it to copy or scan myself. Need it for modeling purposes. Thanks. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Robert Johnston Subject: RE: PRRTHS Cyber Chapter, Cost Defrayment of Keystone and PRRTalk Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:36:13 -0500 Content-Length: 1207 [Robert Johnston] Please count me in as a Non-PRRTHS-member ins support of this idea. I will also be willing to contribute money for the maintenance, upkeep and improvement of the above aforementioned cyber-benefits. I would also be willing to join the PRRTHS if required for membership in the CyberChapter. I am also interested in the PRRModular idea. I am currently located in Martinsburg, WV and hope that business will move me to the Columbus area. I am not a traditional steam/transition era modeler, but I model the stream/transition era. I have extensive experience in things computerized. I am 5'10" about 200lbs, and am married. My other interests include... FYI rwj Subject: PRRTHS Cyber Chapter: Status From: Mark D Bej Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 0:54:35 EST ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:45:18 EST Subject: Re: Hanover Junction Content-Length: 709 In a message dated 97-12-31 08:10:22 EST, jerry@dsop.com writes: << A CT1000E for 1945 should indicate if the interchange existed at that point. Can someone please look this up? >> According to the CT1000 (5/1/45), Hanover Junction, Pa., is listed as a station only (no interchange siding). John Keel ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:49:04 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: Some more questions Content-Length: 1904 LINESWEST wrote: > > IBob Zoeller wrote: > > << Main thing I would miss would be Eastern scenery (I lived in both > > Pittsburgh and Philly at one time, >> > > Bob, > > If its mountains you want, try the Jeffersonville, Madison & > Indianapolis > mainline in southern Indiana, The Vincennes branch in southwestern > Indiana, > the Marietta branch in Southeast Ohio. The Cincinnati, Lebanon & > northern, > part of the PRR's Pennsylvania, Ohio & Detroit RR entered downtown > Cincinnati > via a 1,000-foot tunnel through Walnut Hill. > > And Larry Morgan, Todd Horton and I can personally attest to the > rugged > nature of the Madison, Ind., grade and cut since we walked its > 7,200fot length > thisaafternoon (Tuesday Dec. 30). After descending through a cut dug > 150' deep > into limestone with sledge hammers, hand drills and black powder, the > Madison > branch debauches onto a 200-foot-high fill, all at a 5.89% grade. That > it was > cut by hand is a testiment to man's spirit or short sightedness. > > Larry and I are talking about anotherfield trip in the spring, To > Crestline! > > Tom Vondruska. > Don't forget Todd's wife Lisa, and my wife Phyllis. Both are serious railroad buffs. I hope Tom's wife Carol will be able to join us the next time. I would hope we can see more of the wives joining us at these ventures. It was a GREAT time. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS/PRRT&HS ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:39:26 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: O vs. O-27 Content-Length: 5016 Jerry_Britton wrote: > > With regards to the K-Line train set my son received as a Christmas > gift, > what is the difference between "O" and "O-27" scales? > > I'm an "HO" scaler and know only that "O" is 1:48 (I think!). Is > "O-27" > 1:27 scale but running on the same track as "O"? > > The K-Line box says it is compatable with both. I noted that it is the > three-track variety (Lionel) vs. the two-track type (American Flyer), > having been somewhat educated by last weeks installment of "Trains > Unlimited" which featured the history of Lionel. > > --------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com > Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > Okay Jerry, here is the sum total of the game. I have read the posts of Dick Ross and Stephen Bartlett. I am myself a practicing HI RAILER using O gauge with 42" curves This is a GENERAL breakdown. The lines are very blurry in some areas. O SCALER someone who uses true 1:48 model ratio, two rail track that looks extremely prototypical, scale size couplers and is generally every bit as particular about scale size as any HO scaler. An O SCALER just uses a much larger scale. HI RAILER: someone who approaches scale realism in most ways but uses 3 rail track with realistic looking ties and a blackened middle rail. In practice, most people do not even notice the third rail. A Hi Railer usually values scenery as much as an O SCALER. This category is a continuum. HI RAILERS tend to use "toy train" or "Lionel type" couplers and trucks out of scale, but some actually use scale couplers and trucks while keeping the third rail. Some HI RAILERS use only scale size trains, others allow a little bit of size license. I use a great GG-1 engine, but it is a little short of scale. The true scale GG-1 looks great, but it would not run on my layout. A true scale layout in O takes a LOT of room if you are going to run the largest engines. O GAUGE: Uses 31 inch diameter curves and the toy train track as sold by Lionel. These are the serious upper-end toy trains as sold by Lionel and K-Line and MTH RAIL KING and various others. The difference between and O Scaler and a Hi Railer is basically scenery and the track. The engines are generally a little short for scale. Most O gauge cars have metal trucks and wheels. 027 GAUGE uses 27 inch diameter curves as the minimum and the track is about 1/8 inch shorter than O gauge as well. This is generally the TOY TRAIN area made for kids. Some engines classed as 027 are actually O GAUGE. Examples include MTH RAIL KING, the better K-LINE, and a lot of Post War Lionel. The engines and cars both tend to be rather short for true scale. In some cases it is only a little short. In other cases the result is comical. Most 027 cars have plastic trucks. The cheaper ones may even have plastic wheels. All O27 gauge trains will run on O gauge track, but some engines will have problems with switches. Old Marx does not run well over O gauge or Hi Rail switches. Many O gauge engines run fine on 027 track. They may have a serious overhang on the curves, and may have trouble with 027 switches. 027 and O gauge are GREAT for kids. Some of these pieces are durable, and can withstand normal childhood accidents. My old Lionel die cast metal steam engine went off the table and onto the floor on the average of once per day. I could just pick it up and put it back on the track. I still have it. It still runs great. None of the pieces ever broke off. Not all of the pieces are that sturdy, but generally they can be used and played with by kids. The true O SCALE engines are more fragile. I am sure this is more than you wanted to know, but it may put things in perspective. Jerry, I wish you a lot of happy hours with your kids, whether it is O GAUGE , O27, or if they move to HO with you. Sharing an interest in trains with your kids and wife will enrich all of your lives. HO turned my kids off. It was too fragile for them. Neither one is interested in trains now. By the time I had room for my old Lionel, the kids were grown. I had a lot of happy times with them and we still share a lot of things, but they do not share an interest in trains with my wife and I. I their are any other HI RAILERS on PRR-TALK, please contact me off the list. I would just like to know if PRR-TALK has anyone else with my particular interests. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS/PRRT&HS ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Accurail is a Sponsor / Funding Update Date: Wed, 31 Dec 97 12:06:03 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1547 You will see a banner ad for Accurail on "Keystone Crossings". They are underwriting 1/3 of our excess operating costs for three months ($20 per month). If you need to visit the Accurail site, please do so through this link, rather than your own bookmark or a link found elsewhere. They are tracking "hits" through this link. If there are enough "hits" generated by the "Keystone Crossings" banner ad, the sponsorship could be extended. (I am not promoting that you just sit at your computer and create hits just to increase the statistics. Over extended periods, such fraudulent use would become apparent.) UPDATE: The list and site are now fully funded through the end of March. In addition, I have an e-mail commitment for 1/3 of the funding for a 12 month period and another for 1/3 that could be of indefinite length (web site hosting). Their banner ads should show up in the next few weeks. This is good news! Happy New Year! --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:38:11 From: Eric Roshon Subject: GET ME OFF THIS LIST!!!! Content-Length: 705 Ok, I have no idea how I became subscribed to this mailing list but I would appreciate it if someone would either unsubscribe me or tell me how to unsubscribe. Please! ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRSL From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 12:27:49 EST Content-Length: 3693 This should teach you. Never, ever ask a professor for additional reading. When you read the history of the consolidation and study the maps it will make a good deal more sense. This is the very simple version. Everything in South Jersey [defined here as everything south of a line between Camden and Atlantic City] was either PRR or Reading EXCEPT for the Southern Division of the CNJ. Most major routes were duplicated; i.e. three lines to Atlantic City, two to Cape May et cetera. Nobody made any money. PRSL was a state encouraged rationalization [ala Conrail] in order to preserve service. CMSL operates on the ex-RDG Cape May Branch below Tuckahoe. SRRNJ is on an assortment of lines including: the freight rights on the ex-PRR NJT Atlantic City Line; the eastern stubs of the WJ&S Electric Line[ex-PRR], The Atlantic City and Shore [ex-PRR interurban] and the Atlantic City RR [ex-RDG]; the Salem Branch [ex-PRR], and the ex-CNJ Southern Division from Winslow to Vineland. The Winchester and Western operates everthing around Bridgeton. Conrail uses the Atlantic City RR main from Camden to Winslow and then the Cape May Branch to Tuckahoe and Beasley's Point, also the PRR Lines to Vineland, Sweedsboro, and Penns Grove. I have some PRSL TTs in my collection. The library at CWRU should have some old official guides and these will have the a separate PRSL entry after the PRR entry. ______________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com Management Services Telephone 609-683-0356 On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:50:54 -0500 Jerry Jordak writes: >Michael E. Allen wrote: > >> I hope this helps. > >[book list snipped] > >It does. Thanks for the list. I've received responses on a couple of >those books, but not all of those. > >> PRSL maintained a separate identity until absorbed by CR and published its own TTs [both public and employee]. > >OK. I've never seen a PRSL TT at any swap meets, though, which is why I was curious. Have you ever seen them out there? > >> I'm familiar with the territory so I can try to answer more questions you may have. > >Right now, I'm looking at doing a New Jersey railfan trip in the spring, and after seeing the January issue of Railpace with the cover story on the Beesley's Point extras, I figured that some of the old PRSL lines might be worth railfanning. I know of two RRs in south NJ: the Southern RR of New Jersey, and the Cape May Seashore Lines. Are those operating on ex-PRSL track, and if so, how active are they? > >I'm also curious about what operations, if any, are left over the old New York & Long Branch, but that's the other end of the state. I've been reading some books and seeing all the neat operations in NJ back in the 60's and 70's, and part of the reason for this trip is to try to find out what, if any, of all of that is left. (If that makes any sense! :) > >Thanx, >-Jer > >-- >Jerry W. Jordak The boxcars and flatbeds, whistle >blowin' steam >mailto:jer@smellycat.com That was yesterday >http://prozac.cwru.edu/jer/ Now those big trains don't come anymore >Acts 16:31 <>< -- Restless Heart, "Big Iron Horses" > ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: What did Santa bring you? Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:37:20 -0600 Content-Length: 2573 Andy Miller wrote: . To the best of my knowledge,the PRR only had Brill and McKeen cars. I believe PRR had EMC (Winton diesels later) cars, but I am studying photos to see resemblance,if any, to the Spectrum car. Pennsy Power III had some photos, but the new book Black Diamonds, Black Gold has great photos of everything. They did something few have done, namely make the photos big enough (and high contrast). Really good book, in my opinion This book may have the fewest duplications of previous photos of any recent Pennsy book I have seen. Lots of information -- so much it scares me about the accuracy, but I personally have not found any glaring errors in a first read. Bob Zoeller ---------- From: Andrew S. Miller Sent: Friday, December 26, 1997 11:04 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: What did Santa bring you? Jerry B wrote (in part): Anyway, Santa brought me a Bowser N5C "Northern Region" that the Keystone Model Railroad Historical Society modified to represent an inter-region pool car (yellow copula). Also got a Bachmann Spectrum Doodlebug. We've previously discussed these and I know the exhaust stacks are wrong for the Pennsy. Other than that, is it reasonably close? - ------ Sorry Jer, The Bachman car is a fine model of an EMD gas-electricTime to start your own freelance short line connecting with the PRR/NC and providing twice daily service with a gas-electric (EMD) pulling a box car or two. I now know why my wife and son refuse to buy me model RR stuff for gifts. They know how fussy I am and are terrified of doing something wrong. I got a RR video from Readers Digest and an imitation antique key box with a picture of aa train on it. Happy New Year anyway :-( Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:55:24 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: PRRTHS Cyber Chapter, Cost Defrayment of Keystone and Content-Length: 652 Robert Johnston wrote: "I am not a traditional steam/transition era modeler, but I model the stream/transition era." Hi Robert, I'd be interested in hearing more on your non-traditional transition era modeling. Thanks in advance, Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: Thanks -- Modeling Update -Reply Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:55:36 -0600 Content-Length: 772 Sunshine Models has the wood and 1947 steel REA reefers which would be appropriate as well. Craft kits, but very nice when built. Be sure you order their truck kit for the steel reefer as it is correct. I have never seen any evaluations of the differences between the Rivarossi mail-baggage and the Pennsy versions. Superficially they are similar. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Doug Maddox Subject: RE: Layout design software: new Q Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:09:42 -0500 Content-Length: 622 I've got Turbo Cad 3.0 that I use for other applications. Does anyone out there have templates for switches for this? I know it's not model rr specific, but, it is a good cad package. Doug Doug Maddox maddox@enter.net ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: PRR's "Texas Eagle" Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 12:10:54 -0600 Content-Length: 990 As several people have indicated, any SPF passenger type has to have the Society's Painting and lettering guide. Consist books and car assignment books, if you can get them,. are also useful. That said, I believe that, depending on the date, the "Penn Texas" had about five through Pullmans on the tail end in MoPac colors, possibly a Frisco car as well. Ownership was split on the MOP cars between operating railroads. There are several shots in the diesel era with DGLE E7 or E8s with the MoPac cars. Any passenger power was used, as I have seen T1 and PA's as well. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Number boards Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 12:16:36 -0600 Content-Length: 585 There was a question on standoff number boards for PRR diesels. I suggest those doing the search investigate Cal-Scale part 190-443 PRR E & F standoff brass number boards. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: freight car lettering Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 12:20:39 -0600 Content-Length: 862 Finally am getting around to looking up some of the questions at home. There was a question on freight car lettering, keystones, etc, dates. Once again, SPF's need to add to their library as they can, but a terrific article on the subject was "Lettering Schemes for Boxcars, 1876-1968" in Summer 1988 Keystone, Vol. 21, No. 2. I don't know if Society has any copies left. I apologize to the author--I just realized I forgot to write that down. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: Layout Design Software Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 12:27:33 -0600 Content-Length: 1680 I use CadRail with success. Once you get over the learning curve, it is easy--in fact I use it for nonRR applications,since it is the one CAD program I know. Bob Zoeller ---------- From: Jerry_Britton Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 1997 6:09 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: Layout Design Software On 12/30/97 2:55 AM, Mark D Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote: >Last MRR, I saw ads for 3 different layout design programs. Any of you >have any experience with them? Any recommendations or disrecommendations? I recall some of the ads, but don't recall who all they were from. Atlas' "Right Track" is a joke. Currently I am using a plastic template which is working out real well. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Bowser T-1? Date: Wed, 31 Dec 97 14:33:18 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 758 Did the new Bowser T-1 ever get released? I haven't seen info anywhere. Last I heard, it was supposed to be shipping by last fall. Saw a "proof" of the boiler last winter. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:29:56 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: PRRT&HS Content-Length: 590 Greetings, Never having been a member of the PRRT&HS Society, could someone give me their mailing address? HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!!!! Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963 Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 15:23:01 EST Subject: Middle Division Employee's Timetable Content-Length: 599 Searching for 1900-1916 Employee's Timetable that covers the Middle Division - Enola/Rockville Bridge/Harrisburg to Cresson. Prefer 1915-16. Any ideas where to search? Harold McGee Gainesville, FL ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963 Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 15:35:02 EST Subject: Middle Division Coke Ovens Content-Length: 543 Does anyone know if there were any coke ovens located in the Middle Division? and if so a source of photographs? Harold McGee Gainesville, FL ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Accurail (was Re: Accurail is a Sponsor / Funding Update) From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 97 16:23:40 -0500 Content-Length: 897 You will see a banner ad for Accurail on "Keystone Crossings". They are underwriting 1/3 of our excess operating costs for three months ($20 per month). - ---------- In response to Accurail's sponsorship, I will offer some kind comments on their product line. They make a 40' box car with 4-3-1 ends and a diagonal panel roof. If you kitbash the body to add 7 or 8 foot doors (it comes with 6' doors), you have a very reasonable PRR X43. The PRR had 6000 x43's. regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 17:39:04 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: Layout design software: new Q Content-Length: 1479 On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, Mark D Bej wrote: > > OK, guys. 4-5 responders love CADrail. Yes, I'd previously seen the Atlas > program in hobby stores, but I know Atlas, Atlas is a good friend of mine, > and I expected Atlas to allow you to do things only with Atlas > SnapPiecesParts, nothing more. No surprise. Typical Atlas. The Micro$oft > of the model train world. I haven't yet needed to upgrade my Atlas RS's to new, more expensive versions with newer, most annoying bugs. Not really a true/fair/accurate comparison. You malign Atlas and/or make Bill come out smelling much nicer than he really does. Of course, Right Track Software was initially designed to do just what you say it does, so I'm not surprised. ObPRR: finally figured out last night where the street leading down to the passenger station (which was) at Bellevue, just west of Pittsburgh on the north side of the Ohio River came out. Of course, it turns out it's blocked with a pile of dirt, and I wasn't walking down in the snow, in the dark. Some other day..... -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Your company's ad here supports "PRR-Talk" and "Keystone Crossings". Please contact jerry@dsop.com for more information. Thank you. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Michael DiMaio" Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 17:45:39 -0500 Subject: Re: PRRTHS Cyber Chapter: Status Content-Length: 3276 My vote is to keep PRR talk apart from Penn Tech!! I never did like the keystone. BTW, I am wearing as asbestos suit so flame away at me!! :-) > To: bejm@eeg.ccf.org > Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com > Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:10:03 -0500 > Subject: Re: PRRTHS Cyber Chapter: Status > From: carl-vic-vogel@juno.com (Carl K Vogel) > Mark: > > I am not a member of any PRRTHS chapter. In fact, until I joined PRR-Talk > and this thread came up, I did not know they existed!! > > I have never seen the "Keystone". > > Oh....get those flame guns out!! > > It might be an interesting combination...PRR talk and PRRTHS. > > I hope this helps. > > Thanks, > > Carl K.Vogel > Recently Reinstated Chief Engineer > Taunton & Tuckerton Railway > > On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 0:54:35 EST Mark D Bej writes: > > > >Guys: > >Here's what I have so far. > > > >20 PRRTHS Members in support of Cyber Chapter > > Bartlett, Bej, Britton, Brooks, Copeland, Friendlein, Freshwater, > >Helms, > > Keel, Knepper, Laird, Leary, McGee, Minton, Morgan, Mummert, > > Ross, Schlund, Siller, VogelR, Vondruska > > > >7 PRRTHS Nonmembers in support of Cyber Chapter > > Dugas, Futch, Poortinga, Rosenbauer, Smith, Wangen, Whitehouse > > > >4 Unknown status in support of Cyber Chapter > > McCall, Schoenberb, Shickler, VogelC > > > >Total potential members: 31 > > > >------ > >INCOMPLETE INFO ON: > >Knepper (address) > >McCall, Schoenberg, Shickler (address, PRRTHS membership status) > >VogelC (PRRTHS membership status) > >------ > > > >This may be my impression only, but there seems to be a large number > >of > >Cyber Chapter supporters who are "far" from the "traditional" > >strongholds > >of the PRRTHS. E.g., only 4 from Pa., 4 from Ohio. > > > >I sure think we have enough people for a chapter. We may even beat > >out > >some of the older ones. > > > >-- > >Mark D. Bej > >bejm@eeg.ccf.org > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- > >Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help > > > >save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. > >------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > >"listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Desparately seeking sponsorship! Please contact jerry@dsop.com to help > save this list and "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Your company's ad here supports "PRR-Talk" and "Keystone Crossings". Please contact jerry@dsop.com for more information. Thank you. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 18:02:00 -0500 From: "Drew R. McGhee" Subject: Re: Looking for Passenger Consist Reports from 1950s Content-Length: 2202 Greetings to Jerry and the group, I have two suggestions: The Winter and Spring issues of _Pennsy Journal_ ran the PRR's New York Division Make up of Trains from 1950. Westbound trains are covered in Winter issue. Eastbounds are covered in the Spring issue. The specific classes of cars are identified along with cars sent to or recieved from connecting trains. _The Official Guide of the Railways..._ or _The Official Guide..._ provides the types of cars i.e. coach, parlor and dining cars but not the exact PRR class. Sleeping cars are identified by number of sections, bedrooms, roometts etc. However, the exact classes are not listed. Cars that are handed off or recieved from connecting trains are identified. Getting one of these for the years in question should provide you with a wealth of information. I paid less than $20.00 for the two from the fifties I have. Look at the train shows. I got my second one at a train store. They had used books and magazines which included Official Guides. you shouldn't have problems finding one from the fifties. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 03:12 PM 12/30/97 -0400, Jerry_Britton wrote: >I'm looking for passenger consist reports from the 1950s. Such reports >would (should) include motive power and class/type of each car in the >consist. Helpful would be car numbers or names. > >If anyone has a source, let me know. Then we can discuss specific trains. >(My interest is trains that travelled the Northern Central route between >Harrisburg and Baltimore/Washington.) > >FYI: I have seen Wayner's book on "Passenger Train Consists of the 1940s" >as well as the Rails Northeast issue that profiled the "Liberty Limited" >and included numerous reports for that train, including one from 1953. > ------------------------------------------------------------- Your company's ad here supports "PRR-Talk" and "Keystone Crossings". Please contact jerry@dsop.com for more information. Thank you. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 18:02:37 -0500 From: "Drew R. McGhee" Subject: Re: Northern Central P-Trains in 1954? Content-Length: 5290 Greetings to Jerry and the group, The Dominion Express 574/575 provided service between Buffalo/Toronto and Washington via Harrisburg, York and Baltimore. Sleeper service was also provided to/from Philly via a Harrisburg connection to/from trains 615/36. Both the northbound and southbound were called the Dominion Express The Northern/Southern Express 581/580 provided service between Erie and Washington via Harrisburg, York and Baltimore. Sleeper service to/from NYC was provided by Harrisburg connections to trains 30 and 1. Both of these trains were overnight pullman/coach trains. They ran about 1/2 hour apart both northbound and southbound. 581 left Harrisburg at 11 PM. 575 left at 11:20 PM. 580 arrived at Harrisburg at 4:40 AM. 574 got there at 4:55 AM. These times are from PRR 1951 Susquehanna Division timetable. By General Order 311 Effective April 25, 1954, trains 580/581 were combined between Emporium and Washington with trains 574/575. At Emporium they split/combined. The Dominion Express (575/574) ran to/from Buffalo. The Northern/Southern Express 581/580) ran to/from Erie. Passenger service survived between Erie and Emporium (trains 580/581) until March 27, 1965 (See page 54 of Yanosey's _Pennsy Diesel Years 3_). Trains 574/575 were discontinued sometime between 1960 and 1965. According to April 1956 _Official guide_, the Dominion/Northern Express (575) left Washington at 7:05 PM. It hit York at 9:22 PM and Harrisburg at 10:50 PM By 3:00 AM it arrived at Renovo. It made Emporium by 4:04. About 30 minutes were allocated for switching the train. The Dominion, Train 575, continued on to Buffalo. The Northern Express originating as train 581 at Emporium. The Northern Express reached Erie at 10:20 AM. The Southern Express (580) left Erie at 6:15 PM. It made Emporium by 11:30 PM. The Dominion Express (574)left Buffalo at 4:35 PM and made Emporium at 11:38 AM. Again about 30 minutes are allowed for switching. Train 574, including the former train 580, leaves Emporium at 12:08 AM. It makes Renovo by 1:30 AM, Harrisburg at 5:13 AM and leaves at 5:25 AM for york. It hits York at 6:15 AM and Washington at 8:35 AM. The April 1956 _Official Guide..._ lists the following as the typical make up of the trains. 575/581 Dominion/Northern Express Lounge Car Washington - Buffalo 8 S Buffet Sleeping Cars Philly - Buffalo 10 S 5 DB Washington - Buffalo 10 S 5 DB to 581 Washington - Erie 10 S 3 DB to 581 NYC - Erie 8S 5 DB from Train #1 to 581 NYC - Erie 10 S 3 DB from Train #1 NYC - Emporium Cafe Car to 581 Washington - Erie Coaches Washington - Buffalo to 581 Philly - Erie from Train 615 574/580 Dominion/Southern Express Lounge Car Buffalo - Washington 8 S Buffet Sleeping Cars Buffalo - Philly 10 s 5 DB Buffalo - Washington 10 S 5 DB from 580 Erie - Washington 10 S 3 DB from 580 Erie - NYC 8 S 5 DB via train #20 from 580 Erie - NYC 10 S 3 DB via Train #20 Cafe Car from 580 Erie - Harrisburg Coaches Buffalo - Washington Buffalo - Philly via Train #36 from 580 Erie - Harrisburg According to a _Keystone_ article (sorry date unknown) Bankers Club and Traffic Club were assigned to 574/575 for a time in 1954. There were also daylight coach trains between Buffalo and Washington. Train 571 was known as the Buffalo Day Express and train 570 the Washington Express. According to the April 1956 _Official Guide_ 571 leaves Washington at 8:10 AM. It hit York at 10:37 AM and arrived at Harrisburg at 11:20 AM. It left Harrisburg at 11:42 AM and finally reached Buffalo at 8:00 PM. Its counterpart, train 570 left Buffalo at 8:30 AM, hitting Harrisburg at 4:55 PM. It left Harrisburg at 5:10 PM arriving at York at 5:49 PM and Washington at 8:15 PM. Both trains had connecting service to/from Philly and NYC at Harrisburg. The _Official Guide_ lists their consists as followes: 571 Buffalo Day Express Parlor Cafe Car Washington - Buffalo Coaches Washington - Buffalo (Reclining Seats) NYC - Buffalo (reclining Seats) 570 Washington Express Parlor Cafe Car Buffalo - Washington Coaches Buffalo - Washington (Reclining Seats) Buffalo - Philly (Reclining Seats) According to a _Keystone_ article (sorry date unknown) B'nai B'rith was assigned to 570/571 during 1948. Defender was assigned to 570/571 in the late 50s. Acording to the Summer 94 issue of the _Keystone_, 570/571 was discontinued in 1969. I hope my rather lenthy reply was of some help. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA ------------------------------------------------------------- Your company's ad here supports "PRR-Talk" and "Keystone Crossings". Please contact jerry@dsop.com for more information. Thank you. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: PrrCyberChap Update II Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 18:31:00 EST Content-Length: 893 _Still_ more votes. Current count is 31 members, 15 nonmembers, thus 46 total. Anyone with incomplete information (addresses, zip codes, etc.) on http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/cyber.html _please_ write and give these to me. Also, I'll ask all nonmembers to give me one more piece of info: are you willing to join? I'd like to change a bunch of "No"s to "Not Yet"s - and give the list to the National for them to get membership stuff out to you. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Your company's ad here supports "PRR-Talk" and "Keystone Crossings". Please contact jerry@dsop.com for more information. Thank you. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 21:41:17 EST Subject: Re: Hanover Junction Content-Length: 830 The 1945 CT1000-E shows no connection at all. So I went to the Official Guides. In 1916, WM still had one daily round trip on the branch from Valley Jct. to Hanover Jct. By 1932, the line had been removed between Codorus and Hanover Jct. So the abandonment of the Hanover Jct. connection was sometime between these two dates. I need to find an early-1920's Official Guide...... Happy New Year! Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- Your company's ad here supports "PRR-Talk" and "Keystone Crossings". Please contact jerry@dsop.com for more information. Thank you. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:27:46 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: Hanover Junction Content-Length: 618 If I remember correctly from some earlier research I conducted for a project, the WM abandoned its line into Hanover Junction about 1927-28-29. Dan Cupper Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Psalm 84:5 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your company's ad here supports "PRR-Talk" and "Keystone Crossings". Please contact jerry@dsop.com for more information. Thank you. ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!!