Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:38:41 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Novatach Erie-Builts Content-Length: 967 Mine finally arrived this AM. I did get a chance to take a look at them before coming in to work. The detail isn't fantastic, but it's better than some of the trainset-quality stuff I have. Would I buy them if I could have seen them first? Yes Was it worth the wait? Maybe Will I buy their C-Liners? Well, the quality of the Erie-Builts is better than the AHM/IHC C-Liner shell, but I'm not sure if it's worth the extra $$$. If I do I'll try to find a hobby shop willing to order it for me. I don't want to do it myself again. -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Boxes Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 13:27:50 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 979 I am (or am about to be) in the process of building numerous passenger cars using parts from numerous vendors...sides from USP, core kits from ECW, trucks from MDC, couplers from Kadee, etc., etc., etc. Does anyone know if anyone sells empty cardboard boxes like those that kits (like Athearn's) come in? They'd need to be 12" plus long. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: more on the Florida trains Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:51:39 -0500 Content-Length: 1564 > According to a 1938 ACL Timetable the East Coast Champion originated > in > Boston and traveled to NYC on the NYNH&H, then to Washington on the > PRR > powered by a GG1 I assume, from Washington to Richmond on the RF&P, > and from > Richmond to Miami via the ACL and the FEC via Jacksonville. The > Trains were > diesel powered south of Richmond. > __________________________ > Just one small point that is obvious to most. In fact, all passenger > trains (from all railroads) were diesel powered southbound from Union > Station, Washington, D.C.. The electric overhead continued south to > Potomac Yard where Pennsy (and others) freight trains terminated and > interchanged. Not too long ago, "Pot Yard" was full of Pennsy > traction and an occasional diesel, all in grungy green. The tuscan > stuff was serviced at the Ivy City facility just outside of Union > Station. What a time that was, getting to see Pennsy electrics > pulling long freights on one track, while on a parallel track an RF&P > passenger train whipped by hauled by a Governor class 4-8-4. > Andrew Harmantas, SPF, among others ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Boxes for Completed Kits Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 14:08:48 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1427 On 12/1/97 2:54 PM, Rob Schoenberg (robs@protocol.zycad.com) wrote: >Well, according to the Walthers web site. Athearn does sell the empty boxes. >Don't remember how much they were though... > >>I am (or am about to be) in the process of building numerous passenger >>cars using parts from numerous vendors...sides from USP, core kits from >>ECW, trucks from MDC, couplers from Kadee, etc., etc., etc. >> >>Does anyone know if anyone sells empty cardboard boxes like those that >>kits (like Athearn's) come in? >> >>They'd need to be 12" plus long. Thank you! (Though they are out of stock!) Athearn Inc 140 76300 Kit box 7.5" H 1.00 Y Athearn Inc 140 76301 Kit box 10.5" H 1.25 N 12/07/1997 Athearn Inc 140 76302 Kit box 12.5" H 1.50 N 12/07/1997 --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:16:11 -0500 Subject: Last GG1 run? From: sjfitch@juno.com (Samuel J Fitch) Content-Length: 682 Dear List Members, Could someone help me with a little information as to when the last run of a GG1 occurred? Was it by NJ Transit? The road number, date and route would be appreciated. Thank You, Samuel J. Fitch sjfitch@juno.com 1John 5:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 01 Dec 97 13:48:42 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: more on the Florida trains Content-Length: 6012 --====54485052515755484951===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" >> In fact, all passenger >> trains (from all railroads) were diesel powered southbound from Union >> Station, Washington, D.C. Andrew -- note the year referred to in the original message -- 1938. Unless Coast Line (and Seaboard) were running their diesels through to Washington, Florida trains between DC and Richmond were probably STEAM powered, with those beautiful Governor-class 4-8-4's you refer to. I don't believe RF&P had passenger diesels until after the war, but I could be wrong (I am so often!). Harmantas, Andrew G. wrote: > > > > >> According to a 1938 ACL Timetable the East Coast Champion originated >> in >> Boston and traveled to NYC on the NYNH&H, then to Washington on the >> PRR >> powered by a GG1 I assume, from Washington to Richmond on the RF&P, >> and from >> Richmond to Miami via the ACL and the FEC via Jacksonville. The >> Trains were >> diesel powered south of Richmond. >> __________________________ >> Just one small point that is obvious to most. In fact, all passenger >> trains (from all railroads) were diesel powered southbound from Union >> Station, Washington, D.C.. The electric overhead continued south to >> Potomac Yard where Pennsy (and others) freight trains terminated and >> interchanged. Not too long ago, "Pot Yard" was full of Pennsy >> traction and an occasional diesel, all in grungy green. The tuscan >> stuff was serviced at the Ivy City facility just outside of Union >> Station. What a time that was, getting to see Pennsy electrics >> pulling long freights on one track, while on a parallel track an RF&P >> passenger train whipped by hauled by a Governor class 4-8-4. >> > Andrew Harmantas, SPF, among others > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====54485052515755484951===1 Subject: Re: Boxes Date: Mon, 01 Dec 97 13:54:23 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1017 Well, according to the Walthers web site. Athearn does sell the empty boxes. Don't remember how much they were though... Rob >I am (or am about to be) in the process of building numerous passenger >cars using parts from numerous vendors...sides from USP, core kits from >ECW, trucks from MDC, couplers from Kadee, etc., etc., etc. > >Does anyone know if anyone sells empty cardboard boxes like those that >kits (like Athearn's) come in? > >They'd need to be 12" plus long. > >--------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: more on the Florida trains Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:00:36 -0500 Content-Length: 1843 I must have missed the 1938 time frame. I doubt any of the southern lines were using diesel power on their trains back then, north or south of Richmond. Slightly off topic point: not all passenger runs between D.C. and Richmond were pulled by RF&P power. I did see both Seaboard and ACL diesels operating through Alexandria and by Pot Yard, along with Southern and C&O trains, all of which used Pennsy tracks between Pot Yard and Union Station. I can tell you, around 1950 the place was very colorful and noisy, with fast moving, non-mufflered diesels (don't know why this thing keeps defaulting to Itallics) and equally fast moving steam, with B&O and Southern and C&O 2-8-2's blowing off steam (literally) on the engine track at Pot Yard. All of this was taken in where Glebe Road intersects with Jefferon-Davis Highway (US Route 1) in Arlington . Wish I had a camera back then--I coulda been another Joe Collias, or a C. W. Witback, or somebody.n tell can tell you---------- > Andrew -- note the year referred to in the original message -- 1938. > Unless Coast Line (and Seaboard) were running their diesels through to > Washington, Florida trains between DC and Richmond were probably STEAM > powered, with those beautiful Governor-class 4-8-4's you refer to. I > don't > believe RF&P had passenger diesels until after the war, but I could be > wrong > (I am so often!). > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:37:01 -0500 (EST) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: PRR box cars Content-Length: 1940 In a message dated 97-12-01 09:14:13 EST, asmiller@mail11.mitre.org writes: << It appears as if among C&BT (X29 rebuids and X43's), Red Caboose(X29's) and Bowser (X31's) almost all of the 40-50's era PRR boxcar need may be met with accurate kits. Now for an X37, hmmm. >> Andy, we also need a good plastic version of the X26, X26c, X28a, X37b, X38, X41b and X44 to cover the major early 1950's classes. The X26 is available fro Tichy in a flat resing kit but thus is not easily assembled. The Accurail versionis actually a CN/CP car and is very wrong for the PRR. Below is a list of total cars by class in 1952. CLASS 1952 ARA 1 X23 34 X23A 37 X23B 257 X24 1 X25 153 X25A 103 X25D 6 X26 4221 X26A 1 X26C 3476 X28A 3785 X29 24533 X29A 1 X29B 4404 X29C 4 X29D UNDER CONSTRUCTION X30 1 X31 447 X31A SGL DOOR 6618 X31A DBL DOOR 605 X31B 1182 X31C 802 X31F 688 X32 58 X32A 693 X32B 879 X32C 113 X33 48 X33A 296 X35 1 X36 1 X37 993 X37A 497 X37B 1485 X38 2297 X38A 595 X38B 1 X40 5 X40A 4 X40B 100 X40C 1 X41 288 X41A 199 X41B 1493 X41C 498 X43 500 X43A 1498 X43B 2995 X43C 1499 X44 1248 Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 15:08:01 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: more on the Florida trains Content-Length: 1175 Harmantas, Andrew G. wrote: > > I must have missed the 1938 time frame. I doubt any of the southern > lines were using diesel power on their trains back then, north or south > of Richmond. > It would have been a few years later, but around 1940, '41, or '42 I rode the Southerner from New Orleans to New York & return. I would have been 4, 5, or 6 years old, so I can't pinpoint the year (it was positively not after 1942), but it was definitely pulled by a diesel - I well recall the horn blowing for all the grade crossings, the first I remember after a lifetime (!) of train riding. If anyone can date the streamlining of the Southerner, that would help pin things down on at least one train south of Wash. D. C. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR box cars From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 15:48:41 -0500 Content-Length: 1670 Rich, Sorry, perhaps I should have said MAJOR classes. Eliminating all of the one-of-a-kinds etc. your list looks like this: >CLASS 1952 >X26 4221 >X26C 3476 >X28A 3785 >X29 24533 >X29B 4404 >X31 447 >X31A SGL DOOR 6618 >X31A DBL DOOR 605 >X31B 1182 >X31C 802 >X31F 688 >X32A 693 >X32B 879 >X37 993 >X37A 497 >X37B 1485 >X38 2297 >X38A 595 >X41B 1493 >X41C 498 >X43 500 >X43A 1498 >X43B 2995 >X43C 1499 >X44 1248 > I was thinking just of the 40 footers; but you are right, there were many 50 footers (and 60!!) as well. Tichy makes a PMcK&Y USRA rebuild which I consider a reasonable stand-in for the X26c. It has the right roof, Youngstown doors and ends and the telltale angle construction at the base of the sides where the new wide box was applied to the old narrow frame; but the car is a foot too low. Perhaps this is a measure of my standards more than anything else. Many of these cars have been made in resin, usually by Sunshine, but I was only considering styrene. regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 16:55:34 -0500 (EST) From: VVA249@aol.com Subject: It's amazing what you run into - when you're not really looking Content-Length: 1130 My College - Mount Union of Alliance Ohio - is in the "final four" of the NCAA Division III (small college) playoffs. I went looking for info on our next opponent Simpson College of Indianola Iowa. What I found was a professor named Dick Tinder who in addition to managing the College's computers, their web site and teaching Computer Sciences also teaches a CREDIT COURSE on "Railfanning in Iowa" Humanities 290 complete with "train watching" and museum visits ! This must be a "labor of love" and in addition to all other assigned duties......... Does anyone know of any College doing anything like this ? Dick Ross ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 17:19:53 -0500 From: Brian Brooks Subject: Re: PRR box cars Content-Length: 2123 At 09:04 AM 12/1/97 -0500, you wrote: >Also under "New Product Announcements" they list their PRR rebuilds, the >X29b's and X29d's :-))). They are listed as "special order". I intend to >have my dealer special order it ASAP! > >I already built one of their X43c's and was impressed with the accuracy. They >have abandonded many of their old, terrible castings, and replaced them with >Tichy stuff. > >It appears as if among C&BT (X29 rebuids and X43's), Red Caboose(X29's) and >Bowser (X31's) almost all of the 40-50's era PRR boxcar need may be met with >accurate kits. Now for an X37, hmmm. > >regards >Andy Miller I was under the impression that the X43 series had diagonal panel roofs. The C&BT kits lettered for the PRR X43c that I've seen did not reflect this. Was this an older release or do I have my details wrong? In any case, I'm definetly going to try the new X29b and X29d kits. A freshly painted X29d with the "Don't Stand Me Still!" slogan would be inspiring. Since the Tichy USRA boxcar kit was mentioned in this string, I have another question. I had intended to build up one of these to represent an X26. However, since I model Autumn 1955, I had some reservations. Was the number of X26 still in revenue service large enough to justify it appearing on my layout? Also, even if I used the Youngstown doors and added AB brakes, wouldn't the as-built roof be incorrect for a car this late in its life? Would lettering it for MoW service be an more plausible option. I haven't ran across any photos of X26 in MoW paint, although I haven't really looked that hard. I'd like to have this kit on my PRR roster. Brian Brooks ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Jan 1996 08:24:11 -0800 From: "Linda T. Miedema - Stafford" Subject: Don't want anymore e-mails Content-Length: 553 Please do not sent me anymore of your e-mails. I don't know how my e-mail address got to you, but please drop it. Thank you. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: Cabin Cars Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:07:05 -0600 Content-Length: 883 I don't know if they appear elsewhere on lists, but Terre Haute, IN, has an N6B (I am almost sure) in a park and Shipshawana (sp?), IN (Amish country) has an N8 (?? I am really in memory lock on this one, if someone can confirm the model, please) right across from the combination dry goods store and bed and breakfast. Both in good condition. The Shipshawana cabin was open to walk through a couple years ago, at least. Bob Zoeller Fox Point, WI ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: K-5 Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:23:53 -0600 Content-Length: 2274 H. Mummert wrote: " maybe they could come out with parts to change bachmanns cars... I.E. roofs,doors,window inserts,etc...like the ones you can get to change ahm-rivarossi-ihc cars.would love to have the arch roof on some of my bachmann P-70 cars." You can buy the arch roofs from Bethlehem car works (I think they are long enough --they were for the M70--will check tonight), or you could buy the whole kit with arch roof from Eastern Car Works(P70FAR and P70FBR - one arch, one streamlined roof --forget which). There was a comment questioning how ECW could continue offering these P70's in face of Bachmann. I tend to agree with the niceties of interiors and lights on Bachmann, but ECW are still finer scale kits, IMHO, and since I don't like the colors on Bachmann, I am into painting anyway. I still own a string of 10 of the Bachman's though, since it was a fast way of getting a long string which would run on 24" curves. I previously mentioned repainting and restriping and lettering the D70 diner --try it --looks spectacular correctly painted,striped and lettered! BTW, the Bachman 30's color scheme they put out did have a better Tuscan (again, IMHO) and the olive underbody and roof under room lighting is not far from a grimy black, so I have been using these P70 and PB70s in with my other make cars. Regards to the faithful. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 18:57:26 -0500 From: Chris Brandt Subject: Re: Last GG1 run? Content-Length: 1520 Samuel J Fitch wrote: > > Dear List Members, > > Could someone help me with a little > information as to when the last run > of a GG1 occurred? > > Was it by NJ Transit? > > The road number, date and route > would be appreciated. > > Thank You, > > Samuel J. Fitch > sjfitch@juno.com > 1John 5:12 The last run of a GG1 was on Saturday, October 29, 1983. There were three ceremonial runs between Matawan and Newark featuring No.s 4877(in tuscan red 5-stripe), 4879(NJT black), and 4882(NJT black). The last scheduled revenue run was on Friday, October 28, 1983. No. 4879(NJT black) hauling train No. 3323, the 5:20 p.m. out of Pennsylvania Station, NY to the locomotive change at South Amboy. Yes, it was NJ Transit. Hope this helps. -Chris -- _______ ____________\ /____________ __________\ P /__________ ___________\ R R /___________ ____________\ /____________ _____________\___/_____________ Chris Brandt cobrandt@eclipse.net http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 23:25:52 -0800 From: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Subject: Re: Boxes Content-Length: 1557 Jerry Britton wrote: > > I am (or am about to be) in the process of building numerous passenger > cars using parts from numerous vendors...sides from USP, core kits from > ECW, trucks from MDC, couplers from Kadee, etc., etc., etc. > > Does anyone know if anyone sells empty cardboard boxes like those that > kits (like Athearn's) come in? > > They'd need to be 12" plus long. > > --------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > Progressive Information Technologies > britton@pit-magnus.com > http://www.pit-magnus.com > 1 JPEG = 1K words > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Jerry, Athearn sells their boxes empty. Write or call and ask for prices. Charlie Fox ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: New "Keystone" Is Out Date: Tue, 2 Dec 97 08:43:19 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1239 Yesterday I received the new (Winter 1997) issue of "The Keystone". It features an article on railfanning around Harrisburg, Pa. 8-) The article is similar to the full issue article on Baltimore that ran a few years back. Not quite as extensive, but still quite good. Rather than approaching the topic from a historical perspective, it is a recollection of the author's memories of Harrisburg. Some excellent photos, some notes on operations, some trackage plans and maps, and a history of the passenger station highlight the article. Hmmm. Maybe I ought to volunteer to write about York.... --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Dec 97 8:25:10 EST From: Subject: re: Cabin Cars Content-Length: 2319 Do you know there is a PRR N5c in the courtyard of the Susquenita Middle School in Duncanon, Pa (at last I think it is Duncannon). I believe the scholl students helped to restore it. I've seen it from a distance and it looks pretty good. Don't know the number though, maybe some one else does. K. Kollar ------------- Original Text From: Roger Kirkpatrick , on 11/30/97 9:17 PM: Hody, A couple of questions concerning preserved cabin cars: Felton, DE, PRR # &/or PC #? Lewes, DE, DCLR 1000, PRR #? Wyoming, DE, #?, location? Winslow, NJ. PRR # &/or Amtrak #? East Emporium, PA, #?, location? Lickville, PA, #?, Rt 72, near I-81; Mill Hall, PA, #?, Station Restaurant; Minorville, PA, #?, near Reading Depot; Pecan, PA, #?, Vision Quest; Newport, RI, #?, Old Colony & Newport. Thanks for any help you can give with these question. Cheers, Roger P.S. Lots more questions in places like IN, MI, NY, and OH! _______ S. Roger Kirkpatrick ______|_____| [ ] |___________ 927 Colegate Drive | | | | Marietta, OH 45750 | | [ ] [ ] | | | | | | Fax - 614-376-4777 |__|______________________|__| Home - 614-374-6732 O<=>O O<=>O ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Robert Johnston Subject: RE: PRR-Talk Digest - 12/02/97 Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:27:49 -0500 Content-Length: 536 Is there a list archive ? Is it searchable? Is there interest in having a searchable list archive? TIA rwj ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR box cars From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 97 08:33:38 -0500 Content-Length: 2119 . . . >>It appears as if among C&BT (X29 rebuids and X43's), Red Caboose(X29's) and >>Bowser (X31's) almost all of the 40-50's era PRR boxcar need may be met with >>accurate kits. Now for an X37, hmmm. >> >>regards >>Andy Miller > > >I was under the impression that the X43 series had diagonal panel roofs. >The C&BT kits lettered for the PRR X43c that I've seen did not reflect this. >Was this an older release or do I have my details wrong? In any case, I'm >definetly going to try the new X29b and X29d kits. A freshly painted X29d >with the "Don't Stand Me Still!" slogan would be inspiring. > >Since the Tichy USRA boxcar kit was mentioned in this string, I have another >question. I had intended to build up one of these to represent an X26. >However, since I model Autumn 1955, I had some reservations. Was the number >of X26 still in revenue service large enough to justify it appearing on my >layout? Also, even if I used the Youngstown doors and added AB brakes, >wouldn't the as-built roof be incorrect for a car this late in its life? >Would lettering it for MoW service be an more plausible option. I haven't >ran across any photos of X26 in MoW paint, although I haven't really looked >that hard. I'd like to have this kit on my PRR roster. > >Brian Brooks - ------ Brian, The Tichy car I spoke of was the rebuilt all-steel x26c and some of them were certainly around in 1955. As for the roof of the x43, I'll have to go back to my library and check your assertion that they had a diagonal stamped roof. I thought they were Murphy roofs, like the C&BT kit. Anyone else on line know? (Rich?) regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 08:56:55 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Re: more on the Florida trains Content-Length: 801 Greetings, The "Southerner" was a daily all coach train from New York and New Orleans. Service started in early 1941. Power was EMD E6's. Shooting from memory but think it was "streamlined" from the beginning. Used lightweight coaches with stainless steel bodies. If some one has one look in the 42 or 43 Car Builders Cyclopedia. Sincerely, S.A. McCALL hosam ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:39:40 -0500 (EST) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: PRR box cars Content-Length: 1247 In a message dated 97-12-02 08:58:06 EST, asmiller@mail11.mitre.org writes: << The Tichy car I spoke of was the rebuilt all-steel x26c and some of them were certainly around in 1955. As for the roof of the x43, I'll have to go back to my library and check your assertion that they had a diagonal stamped roof. I thought they were Murphy roofs, like the C&BT kit. Anyone else on line know? (Rich?) >> I am at work and will need to check material at home. Please remember the primary differences among the X43 subclasses was the manufacturer except the X43C which has an 8 foot door instead of the seven on the other cars. Again I don't have the information at hand, but weren't the X43C the cars leased from Chicago car company? This may explain a different roof on the X43C. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out Date: Tue, 2 Dec 97 12:25:19 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1987 On 12/2/97 1:11 PM, LINESWEST@aol.com (LINESWEST@aol.com) wrote: >WEll, its good to know that they've finally have appected that this is is the >1990s and the days of hot lead and zinc half-tones dipped inn acid baths are >long over. I hope this guy has heard about HTML. As a recent new member of the PRRT&HS (1997) and as someone who has worked in the publishing business for ten years, I must comment that "The Keystone" is one of the finest magazines out there. The quality of paper and the inks are first rate! I am not so critical of the photos, as we don't know how good the originals are. Remember, the PRR has been gone for 30 years! The design (layout, fonts, etc.) of "The Keystone" are, overall, well planned and pleasing to the eye. "The Keystone", by itself, is worth the cost of membership in the PRRT&HS. As for you last comment, the PRRT&HS already missed the boat, err loco, on the Internet. There was a time when many of us were willing to help. They didn't want it, so we (myself, Mark, others) created our own shrines to the Pennsy. Short of putting past "Keystone"'s on the net (which they won't do, due to the income they bring in otherwise), I don't think there is ANYTHING the PRRT&HS can do on the net that will truly be a "draw" to those of us who have been surfing for the past year or two. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:38:35 -0500 (EST) From: Roger Kirkpatrick Subject: Cabin Cars Content-Length: 1037 I'll add the Terre Haute car to the list. I THINK the Shipshewana car is PRR 478398/PC 19389, anyone know for certain? Thanks, Roger _______ S. Roger Kirkpatrick ______|_____| [ ] |___________ 927 Colegate Drive | | | | Marietta, OH 45750 | | [ ] [ ] | | | | | | Fax - 614-376-4777 |__|______________________|__| Home - 614-374-6732 O<=>O O<=>O ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:11:11 -0500 (EST) From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out Content-Length: 943 I also got mine yesterday. I found an interesting tidbit of information on pg. 3: "Flash! Addition to Keystone Staff "Mike Coyne has joined our staff ands has begun providing digital imaging services to enhance presentation. More information on Mike will appear in our next issue." WEll, its good to know that they've finally have appected that this is is the 1990s and the days of hot lead and zinc half-tones dipped inn acid baths are long over. I hope this guy has heard about HTML. Tom Vondruska ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 15:26:27 -0500 From: Brian Brooks Subject: Re: PRR box cars Content-Length: 1941 At 09:39 AM 12/2/97 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-12-02 08:58:06 EST, asmiller@mail11.mitre.org writes: > ><< > The Tichy car I spoke of was the rebuilt all-steel x26c and some of them >were > certainly around in 1955. As for the roof of the x43, I'll have to go back > > to my library and check your assertion that they had a diagonal stamped >roof. > I thought they were Murphy roofs, like the C&BT kit. Anyone else on line > know? (Rich?) > >> >I am at work and will need to check material at home. Please remember the >primary differences among the X43 subclasses was the manufacturer except the >X43C which has an 8 foot door instead of the seven on the other cars. Again >I don't have the information at hand, but weren't the X43C the cars leased >from Chicago car company? This may explain a different roof on the X43C. > >Rich Orr Andy and Rich, I went back and checked my references and can definetly vouch for diagonal roofs on the X43a and X43b subclasses. The only photo of an X43c that I have is taken at a low angle, so the roof is anyone's guess. A lettering diagram drawn exclusively for the X43c shows a diagonal roof, but that can't be taken as gospel. I'm sure Rich will have something more definitive. Other than the doors and builders, another visible distinction between the subclasses is that the X43a had 12 panel welded sides while the X43b and c were 10 panel riveted cars. What was the PRR class of trucks? Brian Brooks ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "N Campbell" Subject: Box Cars [X-43] Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:32:31 -0500 Content-Length: 2608 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BCFF37.81C3ACA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all' In following the thread on box cars the question of what type roof the = X43s have came up.From the information I have all of these cars had = diagonal paneled roofs.It appears that all car built or rebuilt after = 1950 had these roofs, except the X48s which were PS1 design cars.My = information also shows that some of the X29b cars were also built with = the newer style roof. My suggestion, if you want to use the C&BT cars the ones with the 4-3-1 = ends and the diagonal paneled roof would be the closest. Travel by Rail Neil Campbell Ncampbell@iname.com ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BCFF37.81C3ACA0 Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 18:48:33 -0500 From: jlevine@mcls.rochester.lib.ny.us Subject: K-Line PRR F7 Content-Length: 698 Does anyone have any experience using K-Line's new A-B-A latch-up O-Scale? It also has heavyweight cars to match. It looks great, and got good reviews from Toy Train Journal but I have not yet seen it run. For $450, I'd like someone's opinion. Thanks. Jeff Levine ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: more on the Florida trains Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 21:36:28 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 1235 On 2 Dec, Doug Drew wrote: > >> In fact, all passenger > >> trains (from all railroads) were diesel powered southbound from Union > >> Station, Washington, D.C> > > Andrew -- note the year referred to in the original message -- 1938. > > Unless Coast Line (and Seaboard) were running their diesels through to > Washington, Florida trains between DC and Richmond were probably STEAM > powered, with those beautiful Governor-class 4-8-4's you refer to. I > don't believe RF&P had passenger diesels until after the war, but I could > be wrong (I am so often!). A quick flip through Welsh shows an ACL E3A in 1939. SAL got E4As in December 1939. Seaboard had an E4A in February 1939. Dennis PS: Welsh: By Streamliner New York to Florida, Andover Junction, 1993. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 20:57:23 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Florida train power at Wash DC Content-Length: 1093 >On 2 Dec, Doug Drew wrote: > >> In fact, all passenger >> trains (from all railroads) were diesel powered southbound from Union >> Station, Washington, D.C> ===== Check me on this, but if I recall correctly, didn't the PRR electrification extend across to Potomac Yard in Alexandria, where the formal transfer took place to RF&P? Bob Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" ____________________________________________ "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com "The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service" ____ooo___ooo__oo_0000_o_o__________________ ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:02:37 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: HTML? Content-Length: 875 >I hope this guy has heard about HTML. > >Tom Vondruska ===== Um; Harrisburg - Toledo Metropolitan Line, right? Traction line back in the 20s? Psycho Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" ____________________________________________ "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com "The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service" ____ooo___ooo__oo_0000_o_o__________________ ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: K-5, now P70's Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 22:14:37 -0500 Content-Length: 1288 Bob Zoeller wrote: BTW, the Bachman 30's color scheme they put out did have a better Tuscan (again, IMHO) and the olive underbody and roof under room lighting is not far from a grimy black, so I have been using these P70 and PB70s in with my other make cars. I have looked over the "older" ones with the olive paint and they do look nice. I have a set of the original Bachmann offerings because I was dumb enough to believe the reports that they were only going to be run once. If I would have waited and it was true, I guess I would have been even dumber! I have at least one of the P70's made when "Alco Models" was offering them before they sold off the models. There is a distinct difference between the Tuscan on the "Alco" and the more "faded Tuscan" on the Bachmann cars. Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 22:48:40 -0500 (EST) From: PRRMAN@aol.com Subject: Toledo Branch questions Content-Length: 1400 1. Prior to the mid-1950's reorganization, on which division was the Toledo Branch? 2. The branch originally ran from Toledo Jct., 6.5 miles west of Mansfield, northwest in almost a straight line to Carrothers, then on to Toledo. A 1956 ETT shows the entire branch to be in service. But the same ETT shows both passenger trains staying on the Chicago main to Colsan (0.3 mile west of Bucyrus), then going north on the Sandusky Branch to Carrothers, at which point they join the Toledo Branch. The next ETT in my possession is 1965, by which time the Toledo Jct.-Carrothers portion was gone. I would say it's safe to assume that the passenger trains ran via Colsan from 1956 until the end of passenger service. But when did they begin running this way? Or did they always run this way? Could it be that the PRR, in 1956, was all ready to abandon Toledo Jct- Carrothers, and had already rerouted the passenger trains off the segment? Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 08:44:33 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: early passenger diesels Content-Length: 1195 Greetings, There has been some discussion concerning dates of dieselization on Florida trains. Here is some information on these trains. With respect to the RF&P operations from Richmond, VA to Washington DC, SAL and ACL diesels were hired by the RF&P for the name trains "Orange Blossom Special", "Silver Meteor" and "Champions". SAl bought their diesels in 1938, ACl bought theirs in 1939. RF&P did not buy any passenger diesels until 1949. The RF&P was at one time owned by 6 railroads equally. These roads were; The Pennsylvania Railroad, Atlantic Coast Railroad, Southern Railway, Chesapeake & Ohio Railway, Seaboard Air Line Railway and the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad. All grand old fallen flags........ Sincerely, S.A. McCALL hosam ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Florida train power at Wash DC From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 97 08:48:07 -0500 Content-Length: 791 >Check me on this, but if I recall correctly, didn't the PRR electrification >extend across to Potomac Yard in Alexandria, where the formal transfer took >place to RF&P? > >Bob Boyd - ------- Bob, I don't know that that is true, but it ,makes sense since it would keep the deisels (and steam) out of the tunnels under the Capitol. regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gene Chase" Subject: MP-54's Again Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:49:25 -0500 Content-Length: 889 I recently saw a picture of a MP-54 with red and white keystones. Is this typical or did Pennsy also use red and gold ones? Also, when Pennsy rebuilt nrs. 409-450, MP-54s in the Wilmington shops in 1950-53, did they replace all the Hyatt trucks with newer equalized trucks? Does anyone make these in HO? In the picture of 411, they sort of look like modified Commonwealth ones. Gene Chase Up pantographs and roll the Owl-Eyes, dreaming again. Prov 3:5-6 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: PRR New Products Date: Wed, 3 Dec 97 09:50:46 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 4906 Below are PRR (and other items of interest) excerpts from "The Railroad Telegraph" (http://www.walston1.com/trains/rrtel.htm): PROTO 2000 HO: Proto-2000 has announced the road names for the fourth run of the E-7A and E-7B locomotives. As far as quantities, we quote from the Life-Like release letter. "Due to component availability these locomotives will be even more Ślimitedą run than normal". E-7A Powered Locomotives * PRR (#5841A & #5848A) - Brunswick Green w/5 Stripes E-7B Dummy Locomotive * PRR (#5844B & #5853B) - Brunswick Green w/5 Stripes Delivery is scheduled for February. Prices will be $90.00 per E-7A and $45.00 per E-7B. Samples of the PA-1/PB-1 Diesel Loco were displayed at the Chicago Hobby Show. INITIAL road names... An Undecorated unit will also be available. Initial road names for the non-powered PB-1... An undecorated PB-1 will also be included. Mars lights and dynamic brakes will be available per the prototype. The A unit number boards will also be either original mount or 45 degree mount depending on the prototype. Price will be $90 for the PA-1 and $45 for the PB-1. The PA-1/PB-1 is scheduled to ship from Baltimore on December 15th. The initial run of Phase III GP-9ąs has been received. We still have most road numbers in stock. The price is $85.00 each. We have received and still have all three numbers of the PRR available. Please check our listing. PROTO 2000 N: Proto-2000 has announced their first release of N Scale SW-9/1200 switchers. Shipment is due in November. The following roads will be part of the first release: * Pennsylvania (#8521 & 8529) Brunswick Green The price is projected to be $65 per unit ATLAS - HO We still have the limited run three pack of PRR PS-2 hoppers in stock. The price is $39.98. The Atlas Classic line will also have reruns of the RS-1, RS-3, RSD4/5, RS-11, RSD-12, C-425, C-424 Phase I and C-424 Phase II. WALTHERS - HO Walthers will be offering a Waterfront scene as their "subscription series" for 1998. A car float and ferry slip are part of this offering. The separate cost is $374.86. If you subscribe for the whole scene, the total cost is $314.86; a savings of $60.00. With the subscription, you pay just $44.98, plus tax, per month for seven months. The following models are part of the subscription. * Railroading Along the Waterfront (book) $49.98 * Pier and Traveling Crane Set $74.98 * Municipal Pier Terminal $59.98 * Carfloat Apron $39.98 * Railroad Carfloat $39.98 * Railroad Tugboat (waterline model) $59.98 * Front Street Warehouse $49.98 In addition, the following items will be offered to compliment the Waterfront. * Pier Add-on Kit $19.98 * SW-1 Powered Locomotive ­ Erie, B&O, SP (tiger stripe),Southern, GN, PRR, CNJ, Undec ­ each $79.98 * Stevadore/Dock Worker Figure Set 10/ $19.99 * Street Track Inserts $11.98 * Tug Boat/Carfloat Crew Figure Set 6/ $14.98 * Idler Car Set ­ 3 Flat Cars w/handrails & steps for crew $21.98 STEWART - HO Stewart will be putting their HO C628 diesel into production later in the year (didnąt say which year tho...). Initial production will be undecorated followed by the PRR and SP. The LV SnowBird scheme has been bumped in favor of the PRR and SP. The LV will be done at a later date. There will be two different pilots, horizontal or vertical headlights and single or dual sand fillers. They will also be doing a Baldwin VO-1000 in HO scale and a 50ą RBL freight car. RED CABOOSE - HO The PRR X-29 40ą boxcar is now stock. The cost is $14.95 per car. The first version is a standard PRR Ball Keystone version with twelve different numbers. Red Caboose is sold out of the first run. They will be producing an additional twelve numbers shortly. We still have a good supply in stock but we no longer have all twelve numbers available. The next variation of the X-29 Boxcar is the PRR Shadow Keystone version. This is now available in twelve different road numbers. This model is now in stock. Two different variations are available in the twelve packs. Four cars have "Calendar" style numbers and eight cars have the "Normal" style numbers. The price is $14.95. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:51:11 -0500 (EST) From: TVPedro@aol.com Subject: Re Trains to Florida Content-Length: 754 I took my first train ride to Wash DC when I was 12 years old in 1940 on the B&O. As we pulled into Union Station I was amazed when I saw Green and Purple Steam locomotives, as they were all black in my world. ACL had to be running over the RF & P to get those purple locomotives into Wash. I don't recall seeing any Deisels. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Toledo Branch questions (fwd) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 9:53:23 EST Content-Length: 1724 > 2. The branch originally ran from Toledo Jct., 6.5 miles west > of Mansfield, northwest in almost a straight line to Carrothers, > then on to Toledo. A 1956 ETT shows the entire branch to > be in service. But the same ETT shows both passenger trains > staying on the Chicago main to Colsan (0.3 mile west of Bucyrus), > then going north on the Sandusky Branch to Carrothers, at which > point they join the Toledo Branch. Speculation. There's a sizable passenger station in Bucyrus (COLSAN). Also there's a quite sizable station in Crestline, which the beeline Toledo main would have bypassed (it comes off between Mansfield and Crestline, and finding the exact spot today is NOT easy). Perhaps the passenger trains took the routing you give so as to stop in Crestline. > The next ETT in my possession is 1965, by which time the > Toledo Jct.-Carrothers portion was gone. I would say it's safe > to assume that the passenger trains ran via Colsan from 1956 > until the end of passenger service. But when did they begin > running this way? Or did they always run this way? Could it > be that the PRR, in 1956, was all ready to abandon Toledo Jct- > Carrothers, and had already rerouted the passenger trains off > the segment? -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: Florida train power at Wash DC Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:04:13 -0500 Content-Length: 1018 > Check me on this, but if I recall correctly, didn't the PRR > electrification > extend across to Potomac Yard in Alexandria, where the formal transfer > took place to RF&P? __________________________________- Yes, it did, for freight traffic going to Pot Yard. Passenger electics changed out for diesels at Union Starion, across the river in Washington, D.C. The passenger power was parked and serviced at Ivy City, just NE of Union Station along New York Avenue, where the B&O and Pennsy mains paralleld for a bit, and was the stage for a few races out of town. Neat stuff. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 97 09:06:07 CST Subject: Forwarded message... Content-Length: 1445 Check me on this, but if I recall correctly, didn't the PRR electrification extend across to Potomac Yard in Alexandria, where the formal transfer took place to RF&P? Bob Boyd ********* Hi, gang, RE the PRR cantenary crossing the Potomac, it most certainly did and freight trains ran through to the RF&P yard at Alexandria. HOWEVER, I am fairly certain that PASSENGER trains had their power changed at Washington's Union Station. Sure, there would have been smoke in the tunnel but not much since they were not that long. I have certainly seen many photos of the Ivy City engine terminal with RF&P, SAL, and ACL power - both diesel and, I think, steam - which would confirm this. Also if I remember rightly (I used to live near Washingtion) the PRR freight line to Pot Yard cut off from the passenger route to Union Station somewhere below New Carrollton. PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR New Products Date: Wed, 03 Dec 97 10:15:47 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1178 >Below are PRR (and other items of interest) excerpts from "The = >Railroad Telegraph" (http://www.walston1.com/trains/rrtel.htm): >Samples of the PA-1/PB-1 Diesel Loco were displayed at the Chicago Hobby >Show. INITIAL road names... An Undecorated unit will also be available. Unfortunately, the undec units for this run only come with the dynamic brake blister on the roof. I'm almost certain that all of the PRR units didn't have this blister. (I finally dug up an Alco builders photo that shows a smooth roof...) Future runs will have undecs without dynamics though. Also, a friend of a friend helped LifeLike out with the Erie PA's and already has a production sample. The model looks great! Can't wait for a PRR one! - Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 97 09:20:47 CST Subject: Answers and Questions... Content-Length: 1786 Hi, gang, RE the Mike Danneman painting in TRAINS Magazine, I got a reply from MIke indicating that he does NOT have prints available. Forgot to bring his address but maybe we should inundate him with polite requrests to make prints available. And now a question: in reading the review in the latest KEYSTONE of the reprint of the ORER from 1952, the reviewer notes the listing of privately owned cars, some of which are milk cars, like the Supplee cars that were used on the Huntingdon & Broad Top, then sent east to Philly on the end of PRR locals. I happen to know that Breyer Ice Cream had a creamery at Port Royal on the Middle Div. I've always assumed that its purpose was to process local milk and send much of the results to their main plant in Philly (this is the same Breyer you can buy today, although I believe their Philly plant was shut down a few years ago). Anyway, did Breyer have their own milk cars, like Supplee? What other private milk companies shipped over the Middle Div.? I've bitten the bullet and created two General American-Pfaudler cars lettered for Breyers for my layout but sure would like to know how close to prototype such an arrangement was. Any ideas? PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: New Freedom Station Date: Wed, 3 Dec 97 11:23:00 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 968 Don't know how I missed it twice, but third time through the new Model Railroader I found an American Model Builder's ad in a lower left corner. (Forget the page number and don't have it with me; check the ad index.) Anyway, there's a photo of the new New Freedom Station model. This station was typical of many built at the time. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out Date: Wed, 3 Dec 97 12:24:53 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1789 On 12/3/97 1:13 PM, SUVCWORR@aol.com (SUVCWORR@aol.com) wrote: >I don't often find fault or diagree with any of your comments. But I must >disagree with your last sentence. The wealth of information in the Archives >at Lewistown begs to be placed on the internet. At a minimum the catalog of >material (currently be developed) should be on the 'net as a searchable >database. I would not expect the material (mechanical drawings, track >charts, painting diagrams, photos, etc to be published on the net because the >society intends on selling this material to maintain the archives and the >station. What has been posted through the efforts of a few pales in >comparison to the material which the Society has. Rich: How correct you are!!! I had totally forgotten about the archives! Yes, a searchable archive on the 'net would be fantastic! And, it would yeild sales for the society that aren't there now because nobody knows what's available! I suspect that if I ever got to see the archives in person I would die at that location...unable to ever leave! (Same goes for the archives at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania.) --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:28:35 -0500 (EST) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: PRR box cars Content-Length: 1269 In a message dated 97-12-02 08:58:06 EST, asmiller@mail11.mitre.org writes: << The Tichy car I spoke of was the rebuilt all-steel x26c and some of them were certainly around in 1955. As for the roof of the x43, I'll have to go back to my library and check your assertion that they had a diagonal stamped roof. I thought they were Murphy roofs, like the C&BT kit. Anyone else on line know? (Rich?) >> Andy: I checked all my photos and C&BT cars. The X43, X43a, X43b, and X43c all have diagonal panel roofs. The X43c has an 8 foot door. The X43a were the cars leased from Chicago Car leasing denoted by the white triangle above the car number. This was done so that any repairs were charged back to the leasing company. Any C&BT X43 with other than a diagonal panel roof is a production error. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:13:26 -0500 (EST) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out Content-Length: 1699 In a message dated 97-12-02 15:06:51 EST, britton@pit-magnus.com writes: << As for you last comment, the PRRT&HS already missed the boat, err loco, on the Internet. There was a time when many of us were willing to help. They didn't want it, so we (myself, Mark, others) created our own shrines to the Pennsy. Short of putting past "Keystone"'s on the net (which they won't do, due to the income they bring in otherwise), I don't think there is ANYTHING the PRRT&HS can do on the net that will truly be a "draw" to those of us who have been surfing for the past year or two. >> Jerry: I don't often find fault or diagree with any of your comments. But I must disagree with your last sentence. The wealth of information in the Archives at Lewistown begs to be placed on the internet. At a minimum the catalog of material (currently be developed) should be on the 'net as a searchable database. I would not expect the material (mechanical drawings, track charts, painting diagrams, photos, etc to be published on the net because the society intends on selling this material to maintain the archives and the station. What has been posted through the efforts of a few pales in comparison to the material which the Society has. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: New Freedom Station Date: Wed, 03 Dec 97 12:30:48 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1241 Local shop didn't have the station yet but they did have the American Model Builders PRR standard tool house kit. It's a nice kit. A bit later than the Kitbits version. This one is a bit more "functional" looking, no fancy gingerbread. Just started building it. Does anyone have a paint mix for the PRR's light & dark building colors (cream/brown)? Rob >Don't know how I missed it twice, but third time through the new Model >Railroader I found an American Model Builder's ad in a lower left corner. >(Forget the page number and don't have it with me; check the ad index.) > >Anyway, there's a photo of the new New Freedom Station model. This >station was typical of many built at the time. > >--------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 03 Dec 97 12:43:31 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: Answers and Questions... Content-Length: 6293 --====48525549495550544854===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" It's too bad Kalmbach chose to print the Horse Shoe Curve painting across the gutter of the magazine, foiling those of us with access to color photocopiers with enlarging capabilities (for our own use ONLY, of course). Danneman is no Howard Fogg (yet) but he certainly captured the power and the glory of the PRR in that image. He's nuts if he doesn't make BIG prints and sell them -- Pennsy fans have to be one of the biggest markets in the railfan universe... George.Pierson wrote: >Hi, gang, > >RE the Mike Danneman painting in TRAINS Magazine, I got a reply from MIke >indicating that he does NOT have prints available. Forgot to bring his >address but maybe we should inundate him with polite requrests to make >prints available. > >And now a question: in reading the review in the latest KEYSTONE of the >reprint of the ORER from 1952, the reviewer notes the listing of privately >owned cars, some of which are milk cars, like the Supplee cars that were >used on the Huntingdon & Broad Top, then sent east to Philly on the end of >PRR locals. I happen to know that Breyer Ice Cream had a creamery at Port >Royal on the Middle Div. I've always assumed that its purpose was to >process local milk and send much of the results to their main plant in >Philly (this is the same Breyer you can buy today, although I believe their >Philly plant was shut down a few years ago). Anyway, did Breyer have their >own milk cars, like Supplee? What other private milk companies shipped >over the Middle Div.? I've bitten the bullet and created two General >American-Pfaudler cars lettered for Breyers for my layout but sure would >like to know how close to prototype such an arrangement was. Any ideas? > >PRR forever! > >Sincerely, > >George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu >Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====48525549495550544854===1 Subject: Re: PRR box cars From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 97 13:02:01 -0500 Content-Length: 996 Rich, My recently purchased C&BT X43 has a Murphy roof. It apparently is a "production error" :-( Thanx for the data. Andy Miller >I checked all my photos and C&BT cars. The X43, X43a, X43b, and X43c all >have diagonal panel roofs. The X43c has an 8 foot door. The X43a were the >cars leased from Chicago Car leasing denoted by the white triangle above the >car number. This was done so that any repairs were charged back to the >leasing company. Any C&BT X43 with other than a diagonal panel roof is a >production error. > >Rich Orr > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:06:46 -0500 (EST) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: Toledo Branch questions (fwd) Content-Length: 991 In a message dated 97-12-03 10:28:19 EST, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: << Perhaps the passenger trains took the routing you give so as to stop in Crestline. >> Let us not forget that Crestline was the division point and crew chage point. Also, any attempt to join Chicago to Detroit trains with the NY - Detroit and Pgh - Detroit trains would have been more easily accomplished at Crestline.than Toledo Jct. Several years ago Jim Lynch did an article on the Toledo branch in the "Keystone" I check it when I get home for further information. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: Forwarded message... Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:22:11 -0500 Content-Length: 1612 > Also if I remember rightly (I used to live near Washingtion) the PRR > freight line to Pot Yard cut off from the passenger route to Union > Station somewhere below New Carrollton. _____________________ Right. The old Pennsy alignment still exists today. The freight line runs along the Anacostia River, around Capital Hill, and the passenger tracks meet up with it again on the elevated tracks around 1st Street and Virginia Avenue, a block or so from the Botanical Garden. The passenger tracks that come south out of Union Station are below ground and emerge from the 1st street Tunnel just prior to rejoining the freight main. "Back in the days", probably as interesting a place to watch trains as nearly anywhere, since between the junction and Pot Yard, one could see B&O, C&O, RF&P, PENNSY (yay!), Southern, Seaboard, Atlantic Coast Line, and I forget what else--all using the same tracks, including ALL the New York to Florida trains. Today, it's Conrail and CSX, with NS and other stuff. A far cry from where I am right now at C&O Milepost FM Zero, where nothing's moving. Must be a maintenance window, or something. PRR forever! Absolutely! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:08:24 -0500 (EST) From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: Toledo Branch questions Content-Length: 2157 1. The 135.6-mileToledo Branch, from Toledo Jct. in Richland County, Ohio, (located between Mansfielld, the Richland Co. seat, and Crestline in Wyandot County) through Toledo (in part on ANN Arbor trackage) and Monroe, Mich. (on Pere Marquette/C&O trackage) to Detroit Union Station on Fort Street was the oledo Division after the 1920 reorganization. The toledo Division also inclded the 110-mile Sandusky branch.that ran the the northern edge of Grogan Yard in Columbus to the lakeside classification and automatic coal loders in Sandusky Co. 2. "The Toledo Division in 1942" (The Keystone. Vol. 17, No. 1, Spring 1964, pp.6-27) states that the Toledo Branch tracks between Toledo Jct. and Tiro (between New Washington and vernon, SE of Carrothers, NE of Bucyrus) were removed in 1956.. An Aug. 14, 1955 Form 1 (sysytemwide passenger T.T.) doesn't show how the two listed trains the Red Arrow and the Pittsburgh Express (down rom three in 1942) get from Tiffin to Mansfield. The system map included in the timetable show the line from Toledo Jct. to Carrothers as being open with mainline status. Lter timetables show the dogleg through Bucyrus to Carrothers. I don't have any from 1956. According to information contained in the Winter 1997 issue of the Keystone, back copies of this issue are still available from the PRRT&HS for $8. Price includes postage It also has a roster ofToledo Division Motive power in 1942 and a story on Sandusky branch operations, one of the Pennsy's last bastions of steam in 1956. Theree is a story called "Toledo Triogy" in Vol. 20 #3 Autumn 1987 issue which is also available for $8. PRRT&HS P.O. Box 384 Upper Darby, Pa.,19082 hope this helps. Tom Vondruska ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR box cars Date: Wed, 03 Dec 97 15:55:07 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 3836 Hi guys, I found this in while cleaning out my mailbox. It's an old post from the freight cars list that answers some of the X43 questions..... ------- Forwarded Message Return-Path: freightcars-request@sunny16.photo.tntech.edu Return-Path: Received: from sunny16.photo.tntech.edu by protocol.zycad.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA25950; Mon, 15 Sep 97 20:28:56 EDT Received: from emin23.mail.aol.com (emout35.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.64]) by sunny16.photo.tntech.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA02567 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 18:36:01 -0500 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emin23.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id TAA20222; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 19:37:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 19:37:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <970915193404_-901430356@emout15.mail.aol.com> To: jeager@visionol.net, nehrij@rpi.edu Cc: freightcars@sunny16.photo.tntech.edu Subject: Re: Pennsy, D&RGW box cars In a message dated 97-09-14 23:07:34 EDT, jeager@visionol.net writes: << >C&BT has kit no. 10205 as a PRR X43, which I believe was lettered no. >602977 (which I believe was actually a X43a). I have that the PRR bought >their X43's from ACF in 1949 (?), but I have no other specs. such as >ends, roof, door, side panels. The series was 603500-603999, with a 7 >foot wide door. >The PRR's X43b were series 600000-601999, built in '50. Diagonal Panel >roof? (Did the first cars have the rectangular panel?) >PRR 70400-71899, X43c, built in '51. Diagonal Panel, right? >Were all the X29d's banana taper end cars? >Was there an X29c? > >C&BT has a double door set for D&RGW, kit no. 10410. I only know of the Rio >Grande's Dreadnaught end DD box cars. - John John, I show: X43 603500-603999 GRNV 12-50 7ft dr X43A 602000-603499 ACF 12-50=2-51 7ft YSD, diag-pan, R+3/4 early IDE (photo of 602000 in '53 Cyce) X43B 85400-86399 PSC 2-51 7ft 7SSD, diag-pan, R+3/4 early IDE 600000-601999 PSC -50=51 7ft dr, diag-pan, R+3/4 early IDE X43C 70400-71899 MtVC 9-51 8ft YSD, diag-pan, R+3/4 early IDE >> Since my memory short circuited again and Jim posted the above, I will build on his response. X43 - height to eaves was 1" taller than the other classes but the height of the running board was the same. At a minimum the pitch of the roof is different and this may indicate a different roof style. I have no pictures of the X43 roof. X43b - width at eaves is 1" greater than the other classes and the height to the extreme width is 3" less. The latter probably because of the superior vs. Youngstown doors. Both 5 and 7 panel Superior doors were used on this class All cars in the 600000 numbers had the 6" white triangle above the car number. This designated the cars for segregated maintenance. The cars were leased from the Chicago Car Co. and all maintenace cost were charged back to Chicago Car Co. X29c originally 6 cars 93650 - 93656 mechanical designation LC The 1963 ORER shows 93655 - 93683 with a total of 27 cars. It should be noted that the same number series 93650 - 93656 are designated X29c and X29d in various ORER issues. Only after the X29d rebuild are they consistent ly referred to as X29c. Rich Orr ------- End of Forwarded Message ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: Re Trains to Florida Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:25:47 -0500 Content-Length: 1645 The Southern green cab units could be seen at Ivy City engine terminal in the District itself. At the time I too thought it was neat to see that difference in color when I was a tadpole. Too bad tadpoles don't have cameras! Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ---------- > From: TVPedro@aol.com > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re Trains to Florida > Date: Wednesday, December 03, 1997 8:51 AM > > I took my first train ride to Wash DC when I was 12 years old in 1940 on the > B&O. > As we pulled into Union Station I was amazed when I saw Green and Purple > Steam locomotives, as they were all black in my world. ACL had to be running > over > the RF & P to get those purple locomotives into Wash. I don't recall seeing > any Deisels. > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: PRR in Wash area Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 17:14:57 EST Content-Length: 1307 > RE the PRR cantenary crossing the Potomac, it most certainly did and > freight trains ran through to the RF&P yard at Alexandria. HOWEVER, I am > fairly certain that PASSENGER trains had their power changed at > Washington's Union Station. Sure, there would have been smoke in the > tunnel but not much since they were not that long. I have certainly seen > many photos of the Ivy City engine terminal with RF&P, SAL, and ACL power - > both diesel and, I think, steam - which would confirm this. Also if I > remember rightly (I used to live near Washingtion) the PRR freight line to > Pot Yard cut off from the passenger route to Union Station somewhere below > New Carrollton. George, please see the ASCII map of the Washington area on my PRR questions page, http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Questions/new.html -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Toledo Branch questions (fwd) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 19:10:25 EST Content-Length: 2234 > << There's a sizable passenger station in Bucyrus (COLSAN). Also there's > a quite sizable station in Crestline, which the beeline Toledo main would > have bypassed >> > But according to my pre-1956 passenger Timetables, as my earlier post states, > show only Tiffin and Mansfield. Thus I must assume that the Detroit-bound > varnish took the "beeline" west from Toledo Jct. for at least as long as thee > my vernable copy of the Aug. 14, 1955 Form 1 was in effect. Tom, a passenger timetable may be insufficient to answer the question. Crestline may have been reached by the train, the crew changed, but there _could_ (in theory) have been no station stop there. (Jerry getting back to your question from a couple of weeks ago on the utility of employee timetables,) this is where the ETT is really needed. ETTs showed station stops with a symbol (I think PRR used "S") next to the time; other times shown are _passing_ times. Toledo Jct. and Crestline are likely to have been shown on the ETT. I don't have one here at work. :-( Anyone have one at home to find out fer sher? Also, anyone have that _Keystone_ with the Toledo Br. article in it (Vol 10, is it?) to find out when the Toledo Jct.--Carrothers section was removed? BTW, I 'fanned this area with Jon Roma this past spring. The RoW is _very_ hard to find anymore, most of it grown up with large trees. IN contrast, the RoW west from Carrothers, abandoned under Conrail in the late 80s, is quite easy to follow (and even drive). Conrail keeps a smidgeon coming out of Toledo to an industry or 2. Still visible from the Ohio Turnpike, just east of Exit 5, are 2 signals whose heads have been turned to the side for going on 10 years -- actually, maybe more like 15. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Washington-area debate Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 19:19:44 EST Content-Length: 2605 > > Also if I remember rightly (I used to live near Washingtion) the PRR > > freight line to Pot Yard cut off from the passenger route to Union > > Station somewhere below New Carrollton. > _____________________ > Right. The old Pennsy alignment still exists today. The > freight line runs along the Anacostia River, around Capital Hill, and > the passenger tracks meet up with it again on the elevated tracks around > 1st Street and Virginia Avenue, a block or so from the Botanical Garden. I'm going to disagree with you in part. Capitol Hill easily ends before reaching the Anacostia (from the west, that is). The freight line is well east of that. In fact, the freight line never leaves the coastal plain, whereas Capitol Hill is the very beginning of the piedmont of the Alleghenies. (I know, details, details.) In DC proper, the freight line spends all or nearly all of its time travelling compass westbound, having done most of its compass southbound travel outside of city limits. It cuts off the NEC at LANDOVER tower in the town of the same name, and quite close to a stop of the Orange Line. (Plus something - Blue? Line.) You can tell where the junction is very easily, since the high tension lines did not follow the passenger main into Union, but rather followed the freight main to the last substation, which was somewhere along that freight line, don't remember where exactly anymore, but across (on the west side of) the Anacostia River Movable Bridge as I recall. > The passenger tracks that come south out of Union Station are below > ground and emerge from the 1st street Tunnel just prior to rejoining the > freight main. Exactly, at VIRGINIA tower. Freight tracks go thru Virginia St. Tunnel in southeast DC. The tracks that bypass the Capitol are the 2-track passenger line to the south. They actually curve to the east, then back west, ??? to avoid the Capitol's foundation, or other foundations??? VIRGINIA still stood last time I was there (1 year ago), easily seen from the VRE station at L'Enfant Plaza, just south of the Smithsonian's Air and Space Museum. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:58:10 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: PRR power in Wash DC Content-Length: 1530 >>Check me on this, but if I recall correctly, didn't the PRR electrification >>extend across to Potomac Yard in Alexandria, where the formal transfer took >>place to RF&P? >> >>Bob Boyd >- ------- > >Bob, >I don't know that that is true, but it ,makes sense since it would keep the >deisels (and steam) out of the tunnels under the Capitol. > > >regards >Andy Miller ====== The thing I find curious is that, if the tunnel clearances at DC were too tight for domes and highliners, how did they get electrics thru there? My guess is they were using the L5s on third rail? Or were the DD-1s assigned there (although I understand the DD-1s were at NYC). If anyone can supply this detail, I am starting to rough in the page on electric power, and it would be useful. Thank you! Bob Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" ____________________________________________ "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com "The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service" ____ooo___ooo__oo_0000_o_o__________________ ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:58:24 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Re Trains to Florida Content-Length: 1394 TVPedro@aol.com writes: >I took my first train ride to Wash DC when I was 12 years old in 1940 on the >B&O. >As we pulled into Union Station I was amazed when I saw Green and Purple >Steam locomotives, as they were all black in my world. ACL had to be running >over >the RF & P to get those purple locomotives into Wash. I don't recall seeing >any Deisels. > ===== I suspect, as a practical matter, that all the Florida participants motive power wound up going back and forth as need dictated, even if it ment crossing territorial boundrys on occasion. Its a shame the RF&P never electrified: we might have seen GG-1 in Broad Street Station, Richmond! Bob Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" ____________________________________________ "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com "The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service" ____ooo___ooo__oo_0000_o_o__________________ ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 20:21:53 -0600 From: Bob Webber Subject: Re: PRR power in Wash DC Content-Length: 1515 Just an FYI: If you can find a book titled "Passenger Terminals and Trains (John A. Droege), a Kalmbach book ($7.50 in 1969), you will see: Track layouts for Penn Station New York, Broad St. Station, Pittsburgh , St. Louis Union Station, Sunnnyside yard, Washington DC, and some other, lesser known stations (Grand Central, North Station,etc. hehehe). Under the PRR: Cafe coach, dining car service, efficiency tests, ferry lines in New York, Jersey City station, lunch counter car, sanitary requirements for dining cars, snow melting car, Washington DC station. There's a lot more information pertaining to the PRR (and other roads as well). Just the throats shots are worth the price of admission. The prose can be tiring, but the photos are good - and the track layout for Pennsylvania station is a foldout that covers 5 pages - and is an interlocking diagram. Also a great diagram of St Louis station is a foldout. Lots of detail on interlocking plants. Check it out - it should be fairly easy to find... Bob Webber http://www.concentric.net/~Rswebber/ ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 21:47:52 -0500 Subject: Request Info-Pine Barrens temporary or narrow rail gauge lines From: carl-vic-vogel@juno.com (Carl K Vogel) Content-Length: 1048 Hello everyone: I could use some historical assistance. Does anyone know of temporary, light rail or narrow gauge rail lines that connected with PRR, PRR Shore lines, or other combinations of Reading, PRR, etc? I understand some sand quarrys or logging outfits used light railed vehicles to move materials. Does anyone have any info to back this up? Was there any of the above rail lines that actually connected with PRR, Seashore lines, Reading, etc. in the New Jersey Pine Barrens. It might be an idea worth modelling. Thanks, Carl K.Vogel Recently Reinstated Chief Engineer Taunton & Tuckerton Railway ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 12/02/97 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 22:33:51 -0500 Content-Length: 46121 I finally found my two books about the demise of the PRR. Most of my books have been in boxes since I moved 10 years ago, but these have been purchased since then. Michael Bezilla is right. One of the books is "No way to run a railroad". There is another one. Both books are out of print. However, I bought mine at a "Cancellation" book store. The first book is: The Wreck of the Penn Central; written by Joseph R. Daughen & Peter Binzen; published by Little, Brown and Company; copywrite in 1971. The second book is: No Way to Run a Railroad; written by Stephen Salsbury; published by McGraw-Hill Book Company; copywrite in 1982. Carl P. Izzo ---------- > From: PRR-Talk > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: PRR-Talk Digest - 12/02/97 > Date: Tuesday, December 02, 1997 12:10 AM > > PRR-Talk Digest - Tuesday, December 2, 1997 > > Selling Stuff on this List > by Jerry Britton > Modified P-70s (was K-5) > by Andrew S. Miller > Re: Have the N scalers among us heard? > by Andrew S. Miller > PRR box cars > by Andrew S. Miller > Re: N6a cabin cars > by Andrew S. Miller > Re: PRR box cars > by Jerry Britton > RE: PRR/PC villains > by Doug Drew > Novatach Erie-Builts > by Derrick J Brashear > RE: more on the Florida trains > by Harmantas, Andrew G. > Last GG1 run? > by Samuel J Fitch > Boxes > by Jerry Britton > RE: more on the Florida trains > by Doug Drew > Re: Boxes > by Rob Schoenberg > RE: more on the Florida trains > by Harmantas, Andrew G. > Re: Boxes for Completed Kits > by Jerry Britton > Re: PRR box cars > by > Re: more on the Florida trains > by Stephen Bartlett > Re: PRR box cars > by Andrew S. Miller > It's amazing what you run into - when you're not really looking > by > Re: PRR box cars > by Brian Brooks > Re: Last GG1 run? > by Chris Brandt > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Selling Stuff on this List > From: "Jerry Britton" > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 08:31:54 -0400 > > Okay, a few people have asked about selling stuff on this list. To date, > we have not had any problems. Let's do this, subject to change at my > discretion at any time: > > Selling "Pennsylvania Railroad" models and railroadiana on the list IS > fair game. However, non-PRR and "generic rr stuff IS NOT. > > The subject line of the post should begin with "SALE". This allows those > that don't want such mail to quickly delete it or even to build a filter > to auto-delete these messages. > > Posts regarding any particular item should be made only once. If it > doesn't sell, don't repost it...try selling it on eBay. > > Communications between seller and potential buyers should take place off > the list. > > If you have multiple items to sell, put them all in one message. DO NOT > send one message per item. This would be abusive to the listserv (and > could bruise it!). > > Let's see how this works out. I know that not everyone will be agreeable, > but I think the majority will have no problem with it. I will monitor its > use. Thanks. > > --------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > Progressive Information Technologies > britton@pit-magnus.com > http://www.pit-magnus.com > 1 JPEG = 1K words > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Modified P-70s (was K-5) > From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 08:44:23 -0500 > > Kit bashing is easier if you start with the ECW kit for the same car. I have > built single vesibuled, arch roofed, P70fr's and a PC70a cafe coach from > these. > > regards > Andy Miller > > >Hello all.. > > Harry...i have also talked to Ivan Frantz of the N.C. chapter about this... > > he thought it a good idea too....just gotta get the parts....LOL > > Also i am sending a letter to Bowser about it...that plus some ideas > > for new engines they could make from parts they have now... > > also maybe they could come out with parts to change bachmanns cars... > > I.E. roofs,doors,window inserts,etc...like the ones you can get to > > change ahm-rivarossi-ihc cars.would love to have the arch roof on some > > of my bachmann P-70 cars. > > > > H.Mummert > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: Have the N scalers among us heard? > From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 08:52:34 -0500 > > >Andrew S. Miller wrote: > > > >> Dennis, > >> I was thinking of you when I read the other day that Red Caboose is > >> entering > >> the N scale market. Their first offering is to be their X29 ! :-)) > >> This news > >> was from Model Railroad News. > >> > >> regards > >> Andy Miller > > > >Hello Andy, > >I am also an N'thusiast. I haven't heard about these new cars. What > >era are they? What are the dimensions and features? > > > >Thanks > >Roger Elliott > >relliott.telis@mail.telis.org > > > - ---- > Roger, > > The x29 was an early 20th century PRR box car. It was 40 ft long and 8 ft 6 > high inside. It will therefore be lower than the classic WWII era box car. > This size was the standard for all box cars up to the 30s. The PRR built > almost 30,000 of them! They appeared almost everywhere as a result. I > believe it was the largest single class of box cars ever built. The ARA > standard box car was very similar (different tuck spacing and a few other > details). Those were built by many other eastern RRs, notably the B&O, RDG, > CRRNJ, LNE. The cars lasted until the early 60s in some cases. > > regards > Andy Miller > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: PRR box cars > From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 09:04:22 -0500 > > Copied from the freight car list: > - ------ > >Under Walthers new product announcements listing on their web page, > >for December, they show "unknown mfr" 193, with dozens of freight > >cars listed. The vendor listing on another page shows 193 as being > >C&BT Shops, but a search on 193 yields zilch. > > > >I always thought you couldn't get C&BT stuff from Walthers. Has it > >(or is it going to) change soon? Most of the listed kits have been > >out for a while. > > > >Happy Turkey day. Now don't you guys fight while I'm gone. :^) > > > > > >Timothy O'Connor > >Chelmsford, Massachusetts > >http://www.avici.com/ > - ------- > Also under "New Product Announcements" they list their PRR rebuilds, the > X29b's and X29d's :-))). They are listed as "special order". I intend to > have my dealer special order it ASAP! > > I already built one of their X43c's and was impressed with the accuracy. They > have abandonded many of their old, terrible castings, and replaced them with > Tichy stuff. > > It appears as if among C&BT (X29 rebuids and X43's), Red Caboose(X29's) and > Bowser (X31's) almost all of the 40-50's era PRR boxcar need may be met with > accurate kits. Now for an X37, hmmm. > > regards > Andy Miller > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: N6a cabin cars > From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 09:25:41 -0500 > > >> Kris, > >> The trucks you descibe are PRR class 2D-F12. They are available from > Bowser > >> > >> who made them for the X31 and X32 kits. The idea was to have springs with > >> different spring constants so as to minimize natural oscillations and > >> produce a smoother ride. > >> > >> I believe that the N6a was the lines West version of the same N6b designed > >> for the east. Clearances in the east required the sloped sides of the > coupola. > >> > >> The sides of the N6a coupola were vertical. Otherwise I believe the cars > >> were the same. > >> > >> regards > >> Andy Miller > > > > > >For a point of information, the trucks under the cabincar are not 2d-f12 > >trucks. > >In Pennsy nomenclature, the 2 describes 2 axles. the d describes the > >journal size > >which in this case is a 5 1/2 x 10 if memory serves me. the f12 > >describes the > >truck which is the 12th in the series of freight trucks. Tender trucks > >have a t, > >passenger have a P. The D size journal is for a 50 ton car which is > >what the x31 > >and x32 are. The cabin cars didnot use a truck this large, as the > >cabincars > >don't weigh near what the 50 ton cars do loaded. The cabincars would > >take a 2a > >series truck. Having just moved, I can't place my fingers on my list to > >find > >which one. > > > >Doug Edwards > > > - ------- > Doug, > > You are quite correct.. The cabin car truck would certainly be a > 2A-Fsomething. > > However if the trucks are as Kris described, then the 2D-F12s which Bowser > makes will look correct in HO. > > > regards, > > Andy Miller > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: PRR box cars > From: "Jerry Britton" > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 09:38:42 -0400 > > On 12/1/97 10:04 AM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mail11.mitre.org) wrote: > > >Copied from the freight car list: > >- ------ > >>Under Walthers new product announcements listing on their web page, > >>for December, they show "unknown mfr" 193, with dozens of freight > >>cars listed. The vendor listing on another page shows 193 as being > >>C&BT Shops, but a search on 193 yields zilch. > >> > >>I always thought you couldn't get C&BT stuff from Walthers. Has it > >>(or is it going to) change soon? Most of the listed kits have been > >>out for a while. > > > >Also under "New Product Announcements" they list their PRR rebuilds, the > >X29b's and X29d's :-))). They are listed as "special order". I intend to > >have my dealer special order it ASAP! > > > >It appears as if among C&BT (X29 rebuids and X43's), Red Caboose(X29's) and > >Bowser (X31's) almost all of the 40-50's era PRR boxcar need may be met with > >accurate kits. Now for an X37, hmmm. > > I can supply C&BT Shops products through "Merchandise Service" > (http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/vendors.html), as well as Red Caboose. > > --------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > Progressive Information Technologies > britton@pit-magnus.com > http://www.pit-magnus.com > 1 JPEG = 1K words > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: RE: PRR/PC villains > From: Doug Drew > Date: 01 Dec 97 10:50:25 -0500 > > --====49544851524853494852===1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" > > I agree with your assessment of Symes. > Unfortunately, I think he was typical of a lot of railroad management of > that day -- up through the ranks, and thinking that their lines were still > operating in the world of the thirties and forties, rather than the "new > age" of the superhighway and commercial jet airliners. > "No Way..." takes your side about Bevan -- as a clever financial man who > modernized much of PRR's accounting practices and kept its head above > water with diversification long enough to obtain the approval for the merger > with its hated rival. Unfortunately, part of his strategy seemed to be to > drain needed cash from the railroad in order to put it into what seemed to > be more profitable investments. > It could be argued that in the merger game, Pennsy held all the trump > cards, yet misplayed every hand. This can be laid at the feet of Symes, and > also at a regulatory environment that still viewed PRR as "the dominant > railroad in the east", rather than the ailing giant that it was. One wonders, > though, even if they were allowed to merge with N&W and Wabash, would > PRR's fundamental problems have been rectified, or just merely delayed, due > to more infusions of cash? > > Mark D Bej wrote: > > > >'ve been thinking about the discussion here about various so-called > villains. > > > >I read _The Wreck_ twice, once quite a while ago, once recently when I > >acquired a copy of the book. I saw _No Way_ once, briefly -- it looked > >terribly dry. > > > >I did not come away with the impression that Bevan was being villainized > >in and of himself. Sure, he was one of the cronies who invested as a > club, > >lent to themselves, sat on each others' boards. > > > >My take (some tincture of time has been added) is that the villains were > >the directors and the board. The former for their lack of interpersonal > >cooperation and relative inactivity until things began to go bad; the > >latter for their total inactivity until things got terrible. > > > >To be perfectly honest, I think Bevan should be commended for keeping > the > >sinking ship afloat as long as he did. Remember that PRR was losing > >money, N&W making money in 1964. PRR diversifications were by and large > >making money, PRR proper still losing money in 1968. For how many years > >(decades?) can a company remain afloat while hemorrhaging? > > > >I'm still curious about those loans that were to come due just before > the > >bankruptcy declaration. Were these the bonds issued at the time of WW > II? > >ANyone know for sure? > > > >Finally, I think one villain gets scant mention in the book. That, > IMHO, > >is Symes. Symes probably would have been a lackluster, interregnum > >type of president had economic (_railroad_ economic, that is) conditions > >been better. As it is, he presided over the beginning of the end of the > >PRR, which started losing money in 1946 or 7, as I recall. It was he > and > >his staff who failed to grasp the scope of the post-war problem, the > totally > >changed marketplace. It was he who had Penn Station destroyed (rather > than, > >e.g., donating it to the city). It was he who wanted to dump a > profitable > >railroad (N&W) for a marginally profitable one (NYC), just to accomplish > >a vision. It was he who hired Saunders and installed him to complete > this > >vision. > > > >Symes, IMHO, is like the President who raises taxes and stalls the > economy, > >then ends his 2nd term. Saunders et al are hardly blameless but are in > the > >unenviable position of being the 1st-term President during whose term > occurs > >a recession started by the policies of the previous President. > > > >-- > >Mark D. Bej, M.D. > >bejm@eeg.ccf.org > > > >Clinical Associate, Section of Epilepsy & Sleep Disorders > >Epilepsy Research Fellow, Section of Neurological Computing > >Department of Neurology Phone (216) 445-2565 > >Cleveland Clinic Foundation S-51 Operator (216) 444-2200 bpr 24095 > >9500 Euclid Ave. Fax (216) 445-6617 (public) > >Cleveland, Ohio 44195 U.S.A. Voice mail (216) 444-0119 > (nonclinical only) > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- > >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > > >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > >------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > --====49544851524853494852===1 > Subject: Novatach Erie-Builts > From: Derrick J Brashear > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:38:41 -0500 (EST) > Subject: RE: more on the Florida trains > From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:51:39 -0500 > Subject: Last GG1 run? > From: sjfitch@juno.com (Samuel J Fitch) > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:16:11 -0500 > Subject: Boxes > From: "Jerry Britton" > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 13:27:50 -0400 > Subject: RE: more on the Florida trains > From: Doug Drew > Date: 01 Dec 97 13:48:42 -0500 > Subject: Re: Boxes > From: Rob Schoenberg > Date: Mon, 01 Dec 97 13:54:23 -0500 > Subject: RE: more on the Florida trains > From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:00:36 -0500 > Subject: Re: Boxes for Completed Kits > From: "Jerry Britton" > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 14:08:48 -0400 > Subject: Re: PRR box cars > From: SUVCWORR@aol.com > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:37:01 -0500 (EST) > Subject: Re: more on the Florida trains > From: Stephen Bartlett > Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 15:08:01 -0500 > Subject: Re: PRR box cars > From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 15:48:41 -0500 > Subject: It's amazing what you run into - when you're not really looking > From: VVA249@aol.com > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 16:55:34 -0500 (EST) > Subject: Re: PRR box cars > From: Brian Brooks > Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 17:19:53 -0500 > Subject: Re: Last GG1 run? > From: Chris Brandt > Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 18:57:26 -0500 From: BowerPRR Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 22:57:37 EST Subject: Re: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out Content-Length: 1750 Regarding Mr. Vondruska's comments about the new winter issue of the PRRT&HS "Keystone" magazine. I hope that he and others on this forum truly learn to appreciate the efforts and production of this publication. The staff of this historic society along with those of the other regional PRRT&HS chapters are unpaid volunteers. They bring their professional and intellectual talents to bear to bring all of us who are members GREAT and accurate historic documents that are first rate reference materials. I don't think it is in anyone's best interest to snipe or throw stones about their efforts. I understand the society has rebuffed several individuals who offered their digital expertise. Perhaps becoming a member, getting involved at meetings, having a say, casting a vote for officers may prove to be the most direct route to making changes. If that fails, then this forum could elevate itself to become the caliber of publication that would rival the "Keystone". That would require responsible unpaid volunteers! The Philadelphia Chapter PRRT&HS has its next meeting 12/6/97 at the Drexel Hill United Methodist Church in Philadelphia. Starts at 11:30 with a modelers forum: PRR Diesels model contest, followed by the regular meeting and presentations at 1 p.m. Get involved; plan to attend. Brad Bower ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 23:25:20 -0500 From: "Dave 'Fresh' Freshwater" Subject: Re: PRR New Products Content-Length: 2151 Jerry Britton wrote: > > Below are PRR (and other items of interest) excerpts from "The Railroad Telegraph" (http://www.walston1.com/trains/rrtel.htm): > > > PROTO 2000 N: > > Proto-2000 has announced their first release of N Scale SW-9/1200 > switchers. Shipment is due in November. The following roads will be part > of the first release: > * Pennsylvania (#8521 & 8529) Brunswick Green > The price is projected to be $65 per unit > Apparently, these units are delayed; the rumor is the container is hung up in the traffic jam on the west coast. M.B. Klein's in Baltimore (which has a close relationship with Lifelike) was still projecting mid-December on Black Friday. > SNIP< > RED CABOOSE - HO > > The PRR X-29 40ą boxcar is now stock. The cost is $14.95 per car. The > first version is a standard PRR Ball Keystone version with twelve > different numbers. Red Caboose is sold out of the first run. They will > be producing an additional twelve numbers shortly. We still have a good > supply in stock but we no longer have all twelve numbers available. > > The next variation of the X-29 Boxcar is the PRR Shadow Keystone > version. This is now available in twelve different road numbers. This > model is now in stock. Two different variations are available in the > twelve packs. Four cars have "Calendar" style numbers and eight cars > have the "Normal" style numbers. The price is $14.95. > In a couple of publications recently, Red Cabbose announced that they were going to also do the X-29s in N-Scale. This has caused lots of drooling among us SPFs in the smaller scale. Expected shipping was early 1998. Dave Freshwater North Potomac, MD ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR power in Wash DC Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 23:28:44 -0500 (EST) From: "Ken Reinert" Content-Length: 1516 Robert A. Boyd wrote: > The thing I find curious is that, if the tunnel clearances at DC were too > tight for domes and highliners, how did they get electrics thru there? My > guess is they were using the L5s on third rail? Or were the DD-1s > assigned there (although I understand the DD-1s were at NYC). They didn't. Passenger trains operating south of Washington changed power from motors to diesels (and vice versa) there. Except for a short part at the north end of the tunnel, they were never equipped to handle any type of electric power. The short stretch of catenary was to allow the motors to cut off of a southbound train so the diesels could couple on without getting a yard crew involved in juggling the train around. Freight trains operating over the "Main Line - Landover to RO" (the *real* main line, as the line into Washington Terminal was called at one time the Magruder Branch, I believe) ran with motors into Potomac Yard. A good portion of the north end of the yard was electrified -- but no wires were to be found on the south end. Ken ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 00:05:27 -0500 From: "Dave 'Fresh' Freshwater" Subject: Re: PRR power in Wash DC Content-Length: 1766 Robert A. Boyd wrote: > > >>Check me on this, but if I recall correctly, didn't the PRR electrification > >>extend across to Potomac Yard in Alexandria, where the formal transfer took > >>place to RF&P? > >> > >>Bob Boyd > >- ------- > > > >Bob, > >I don't know that that is true, but it ,makes sense since it would keep the > >deisels (and steam) out of the tunnels under the Capitol. > > > > > >regards > >Andy Miller > > ====== > > The thing I find curious is that, if the tunnel clearances at DC were too > tight for domes and highliners, how did they get electrics thru there? My > guess is they were using the L5s on third rail? Or were the DD-1s > assigned there (although I understand the DD-1s were at NYC). > > If anyone can supply this detail, I am starting to rough in the page on > electric power, and it would be useful. > > Thank you! > > Bob Boyd Bob, I know they ran GG-1s into Union Station here in DC. Just before Eisenhower's Inagruation, the brakes failed on one that crashed into the station and then through the floor into the basement. While I am not old enough to have been here then, Monday's "Trains Unlimited" episode had a segment at the very end about this accident. (Subject of the episode was train accidents and safety.) Dave Freshwater North Potomac, MD ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 21:10:34 -0800 From: Claus Schlund Subject: P54 cars on other roads Content-Length: 1239 To list members at PRR-TALK@dsop.com A while back, there was some discussion of P54 coaches on the list. My memory was that somebody mentioned that P54's were used by at least seven different railroads, but as far as I could tell, never did mention which seven roads these were. So, which seven roads were they? I will take a guess, but this is all it is: just a guess! (1) PRR (obvious) (2) LIRR (likely, since it was a subsidiary) (3) PRSL (same as above) (4) Erie (I have seen a photo of an ex-PRR PB54 w/Erie lettering, so a P54 isn't too much of a strech) (5) Susquehanna (same as Erie above) At this point, I give up! So if someone has the real answer, I for one would like to know... Till later... Claus Schlund (modeling steam-era PRR in N scale) San Francisco, CA ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 00:13:53 -0500 From: "Dave 'Fresh' Freshwater" Subject: Re: Answers and Questions... Content-Length: 2052 George Pierson wrote: > > Hi, gang, > > RE the Mike Danneman painting in TRAINS Magazine, I got a reply from MIke > indicating that he does NOT have prints available. Forgot to bring his > address but maybe we should inundate him with polite requrests to make > prints available. > > And now a question: in reading the review in the latest KEYSTONE of the > reprint of the ORER from 1952, the reviewer notes the listing of privately > owned cars, some of which are milk cars, like the Supplee cars that were > used on the Huntingdon & Broad Top, then sent east to Philly on the end of > PRR locals. I happen to know that Breyer Ice Cream had a creamery at Port > Royal on the Middle Div. I've always assumed that its purpose was to > process local milk and send much of the results to their main plant in > Philly (this is the same Breyer you can buy today, although I believe their > Philly plant was shut down a few years ago). Anyway, did Breyer have their > own milk cars, like Supplee? What other private milk companies shipped > over the Middle Div.? I've bitten the bullet and created two General > American-Pfaudler cars lettered for Breyers for my layout but sure would > like to know how close to prototype such an arrangement was. Any ideas? > > PRR forever! > > Sincerely, > > George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu > Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College > George, I've got a copy of the Jan. 1953 NMRA reprint of the ORER. I don't find any listing in it for Breyers as a private car owner, unlike Supplee. Dave Freshwater North Potomac, MD ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Dec 97 7:28:13 EST From: Subject: Trainphone Content-Length: 2571 Greetings everyone, I hope this subject hasn't been discussed recently since I don't like boring all of you with redundant questions. Can anyone explain a little about the PRR's Trainphone (or Train Phone?) communication system? Or suggest some good reference material? When did the system come into use? I've seen some photos of tenders with what looks like antennas on them. Was it used on both freight and passenger trains. Speaking of passenger trains I've seen brass models of PRR and other railroads with the antenna on passenger car roofs but I have never seen photos of other railroad locomotives with the antenna's on them. Are the models wrong or haven't I been looking hard enough at the other railroads. Bottomline, were they unique to the PRR and if so why? Recently someone mentioned that either train stations or interlocking towers were equipped with the trainphone as well. What would a typical antenna look like on a structure like this...the small round disks you see on some cabin cars or the long tubular antenna found on locomotives. And where would it be located..on the roof, on the exterior wall, on a pole??? Some photos show the antennas going through the roof on some locomotives but on others they seem to travel down along either the nose of the loco or down the rear of the unit. Was there a standard or did the interior plumbing of the locomotives require variations? In the cab what did the unit look like? A regular telephone handset with a button to push to either talk or listen? If noticed that the portion of the antenna that runs parallel to the loco roof is a different diameter than the vertical segment, the part that goes through the roof/nose. Why is that? Was the horizontal segment a hollow tube with a smaller diameter wire running through it? Was the Trainphone used system wide or limited to certain regions? Was a certain train assigned a specific frequency and could different trains speak to each other? I hope I didn't ask to many questions. Any info you can provide would be greatly appreciated. Kris Kollar ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: P54 cars on other roads From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 97 08:51:49 -0500 Content-Length: 1859 I was unaware of the Erie and SQH. The other raos I knew of was the Boston & Maine. They bought quite a few for commuter service. regards Andy Miller >To list members at PRR-TALK@dsop.com > >A while back, there was some discussion of P54 coaches >on the list. My memory was that somebody mentioned >that P54's were used by at least seven different railroads, >but as far as I could tell, never did mention >which seven roads these were. > >So, which seven roads were they? I will take a guess, >but this is all it is: just a guess! > >(1) PRR (obvious) >(2) LIRR (likely, since it was a subsidiary) >(3) PRSL (same as above) >(4) Erie (I have seen a photo of an ex-PRR PB54 w/Erie > lettering, so a P54 isn't too much of a strech) >(5) Susquehanna (same as Erie above) > >At this point, I give up! So if someone has the >real answer, I for one would like to know... > >Till later... > > Claus Schlund (modeling steam-era PRR in N scale) > San Francisco, CA > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: PRR power in Wash DC Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:09:06 -0500 Content-Length: 2080 > ---------- > From: rboydrrs@inlink.com[SMTP:rboydrrs@inlink.com] > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 1997 7:58 PM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: PRR power in Wash DC > > > The thing I find curious is that, if the tunnel clearances at DC were > too > tight for domes and highliners, how did they get electrics thru there? > > ________________________ > They didn't. Overhead stopped at at Union Station, almost up to the > mouth of the tunnel. Not through the tunnel. The overhead DID run > through on the freight tracks (which bypassed much of the passenger > train complex) along the Anacostia River, rejoining the southbound > main near 2nd St And Virginia Ave, and then the double track with > overhead went over the Long Bridge (that's the bridge's actual name) > into Arlington, and on to Pot Yard. > > And now, for those who aren't exatly fascinated by the Pennsy in and > around D.C., for those of us who were there, who rode the PRR and > other roads into and out of D.C, who saw steam and diesel, and > witnessed it all including the onset of Conrail, we think that the > Washington area railroad scene was perhaps the most diverse, ecclectic > (OK, and electric), colorful, streamline and limited dimintated, laid > back, and memorable as any. Sure, it wasn't as Pennsy intensive as > Philly, but there was still plenty enough to see. It's always such > fun when a thread starts and some of us can rant with at least a small > element of truth on our posts. And now, back to boxcars. > > Andrew h, kitbashing his own Pennsy E8's and E7's as we speak. To hell > with the ready-to-run stuff. > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Trainphone Date: Thu, 4 Dec 97 10:26:15 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 911 On 12/4/97 8:28 AM, kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL (kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL) wrote: >Can anyone explain a little about the PRR's Trainphone (or Train Phone?) >communication system? If someone wants to do a nice write-up on this, I'll post it as a FAQ at "Keystone Crossings". --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 97 08:49:37 CST Subject: Trainphone Content-Length: 1491 Hi, everyone, RE the question on the trainphone, sometime in this past year (I've got it at home) TRAINS magazine did an article on early radio communication on the railroads which included a very nice section on the PRR's trainphone. In general, it appears from what I can remember that the trainphone was mostly used on the busier mainline segments of the PRR. For example, in the recent color book on the line to Sodus Point you see almost no trainphone equipment. Trainphone allowed loco to caboose communication or either one to towers. Its range was limited because it was not true radio. Even within its range the transmission quality was not always good. By the early 1960s it was being phased out - I seem to recall that some GP 30's were delivered with trainphone. There's also an entertaining treatment of trainphone in that PRR b&w promo film from the 1940s which is widely available in video. PRR Forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:04:12 -0600 (CST) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: Re: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out Content-Length: 1520 In message <16b68b47.34862a46@aol.com> BowerPRR writes: > Regarding Mr. Vondruska's comments about the new winter issue of the PRRT&HS > "Keystone" magazine. I hope that he and others on this forum truly learn to > appreciate the efforts and production of this publication. The staff of this > historic society along with those of the other regional PRRT&HS chapters are > unpaid volunteers. They bring their professional and intellectual talents to > bear to bring all of us who are members GREAT and accurate historic documents > that are first rate reference materials. I don't think it is in anyone's best > interest to snipe or throw stones about their efforts. Well said Brad. Having published a quarterly organizational newsletter - one that never came close to the quality of the Keystone - for 10 years, I can attest to the work that goes into such a publication. The Keystone staff is to be highly commended for their efforts. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:04:16 EST Subject: Re: Answers and Questions... Content-Length: 1283 In a message dated 97-12-04 09:16:25 EST, dfresh20@erols.com writes: << I've got a copy of the Jan. 1953 NMRA reprint of the ORER. I don't find any listing in it for Breyers as a private car owner, unlike Supplee. >> Unfortunately, this does not mean that Breyer's did not have cars lettered for there products etc. As with tank cars, they may have leased GPEX milk cars and placed their own name but not reporting marks on the car. The ORER is only shows the owner of the reporting marks as the owner. Leasees are not shown. However, without photographic evidence, I would not create such a car. George, you might want to contact Breyer's for information and any photos which they may have in their corporate archives. Other companies have been willing to share such onformation and give permission to print the photos. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bill.laird@coastalcorp.com Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:04:19 -0600 Subject: Trainphone -Reply Content-Length: 4853 Kris, While not an expert in the RR Trainphone system, I have always been interested in it. I will try to answer some of your questions. >>> "kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL" 12/4/97, 08:17am wrote>>> >Greetings everyone, >I hope this subject hasn't been discussed recently since >I don't like boring all of you with redundant questions. It has, but I don't believe anyone minds a rehash for the sake of knowledge transfer. >Can anyone explain a little about the PRR's Trainphone >(or Train Phone?) communication system? The PRR Trainphone system was a low frequency, inductance communications system. Voice communications were transmitted via inductance by the long horizontal antennas on locomotives and cabin cars and received by antennas within a few yards of the track. Range was very limited. Not really a radio system, it was based on the electrical principal of inductance, that is the ability of an electrical conductor to pick up the current from another conductor close by. >Or suggest some good reference material? When did the system >come into use? I've seen some photos of tenders with what >looks like antennas on them. Was it used on both freight and >passenger trains. I am currently on a business trip to London and do not have access to my "library" so can't give a specific reference, but one of the RR magazines had an article in the last several months on early railroad communications systems. It covered the PRR Trainphone is some detail with some photographs. If you are unable to track it down, I would be glad to mail or FAX it to you upon my return home (mid Dec). >Speaking of passenger trains I've seen brass models of PRR >and other railroads with the antenna on passenger car roofs >but I have never seen photos of other railroad locomotives >with the antenna's on them. Are the models wrong or haven't >I been looking hard enough at the other railroads. >Bottomline, were they unique to the PRR and if so why? Some passenger cars (PRR and other RR's) had long horizontal antennas mounted on the roof for reception of standard AM radio broadcasts. Radio sets for "entertainment" were installed in some observation and lounge cars. However, the PRR was not the only RR to experiment with early communications systems, I believe UP was another. >Recently someone mentioned that either train stations or >interlocking towers were equipped with the trainphone as well. >What would a typical antenna look like on a structure like >this...the small round disks you see on some cabin cars or >the long tubular antenna found on locomotives. And where >would it be located..on the roof, on the exterior wall, >on a pole??? I don't know much about the trackside antennas, except that any facility that wanted to use the Trainphone (stations, towers, etc.) had to have an antenna. >Some photos show the antennas going through the roof on some >locomotives but on others they seem to travel down along either >the nose of the loco or down the rear of the unit. Was there a >standard or did the interior plumbing of the locomotives require >variations? In the cab what did the unit look like? A regular >telephone handset with a button to push to either talk or listen? >If noticed that the portion of the antenna that runs parallel >to the loco roof is a different diameter than the vertical >segment, the part that goes through the roof/nose. Why is that? >Was the horizontal segment a hollow tube with a smaller >diameter wire running through it? Only thing I can help you with here is that the smaller diameter segment of the antenna was the feedwire which carried the signals to and from the horizontal radiating element of the antenna. >Was the Trainphone used system wide or limited to certain regions? I believe it was more common in Lines East territory. >Was a certain train assigned a specific frequency and >could different trains speak to each other? There was only one "frequency" or channel, it was a party line affair. Different trains could communicate with one another if they were within the limited system range of one another (for example while passing one another). >I hope I didn't ask to many questions. Any info you can provide >would be greatly appreciated. >Kris Kollar Never too many questions, just not enough answers. Bill Laird ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 04 Dec 97 11:09:16 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: Trainphone (LONG!!!) Content-Length: 14323 --====48545051495456505353===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" OK, here's my understanding of how PRR's trainphone system came about, and worked: Trainphone was adopted by PRR as a result of the railroad industry in general losing the rights to 'service' radio bandwidth frequencies early in the century, due to apparent lack of interest, or the inability to find tube equipment durable enough to survive any length of time in on a jolting steam locomotive. Due to Pennsy's huge traffic, it found itself with the need for voice communication between trains and block stations, and between trains themselves. Train orders, telegraphy and the like weren't cutting it on PRR, yet it couldn't use radio for communication with trains. Trainphone used the track and/or lineside telegraph wires to convey voice messages between loco and cabin car, between trains, or between trains and block stations. It accomplished this by inducing a varying current into rail or wires via an energized coil -- something akin to a radio signal -- essentially turning rail or telegraph wire into a broadcasting antenna. The message broadcast could then be picked up by antenna-equipped trains or block stations -- the pickup antennae on moving equipment were the large 'handrail' structures on the tenders of steam locomotives, atop diesel locomotives, and virtually surrounding the longitude of a cabin car. Application of trainphone antennae had to vary, of course, with the application. Pennsy Power 1 showed some of the original oddball trial applications -- including atop the boilers of steam locomotives. I really don't know why diameters of the receiving antennae might have varied -- I assume regular pipe stock was used for receivers, and the smaller diameter "pipes" may have been solid rods. The current-inducers were small semicircular devices -- usually in pairs -- mounted on the underframes of the tender, diesel or cabin car. I'm not sure what block stations used for inducers or receiving antenna, or if they simply had their Inductive Train Telephone equipment (the formal name for it) connected to lineside wires or to the rail itself, as the antennae would have only been needed for moving equipment. The 'user-interface' was a typical telephone handset, hung on a box-like instrument next to the engineer's seat on locomotives -- I assume it would be above the conductor's desk in a cabin car. There was a speaker to get the user's attention (i.e. "MG tower to engineer LCL-1") and the handset was used to allow easier hearing and speaking on a noisy locomotive. I believe there were two "channels" or frequencies used, one for engine-to-cabin (or vice versa) communication, and one for train-to- train or train-to-block cabin communications. Trainphone was originally used on PRR's busiest lines, such as the Pittsburgh division, as enhancing the ability to move trains in dense traffic was its reason for being. I assume it probably was eventually used system-wide, but I don't know for sure. Does anyone know if it was used in the electrified zone, and if so, how did electric engines pick up the signal? I also don't know how on-train telephones used in some passenger trains fit into this system, or if they used another system altogether. The antennae seen on the roofs of some passenger cars would be for the on-train telephone. Trainphone equipment is one of the things that made Pennsy equipment distinctive, and is indicative of how the railroad coped with the huge traffic it carried. Looking forward to any corrections to the above. -- Doug Drew kkollar wrote: >Greetings everyone, > >I hope this subject hasn't been discussed recently since I don't like >boring all of you with redundant questions. > >Can anyone explain a little about the PRR's Trainphone (or Train Phone?) >communication system? Or suggest some good reference material? When did >the system come into use? I've seen some photos of tenders with what looks >like antennas on them. Was it used on both freight and passenger trains. >Speaking of passenger trains I've seen brass models of PRR and other >railroads with the antenna on passenger car roofs but I have never seen >photos of other railroad locomotives with the antenna's on them. Are the >models wrong or haven't I been looking hard enough at the other railroads. >Bottomline, were they unique to the PRR and if so why? Recently someone >mentioned that either train stations or interlocking towers were equipped >with the trainphone as well. What would a typical antenna look like on a >structure like this...the small round disks you see on some cabin cars or >the long tubular antenna found on locomotives. And where would it be >located..on the roof, on the exterior wall, on a pole??? Some photos show >the antennas going through the roof on some locomotives but on others they >seem to travel down along either the nose of the loco or down the rear of >the unit. Was there a standard or did the interior plumbing of the >locomotives require variations? In the cab what did the unit look like? A >regular telephone handset with a button to push to either talk or listen? >If noticed that the portion of the antenna that runs parallel to the loco >roof is a different diameter than the vertical segment, the part that goes >through the roof/nose. Why is that? Was the horizontal segment a hollow >tube with a smaller diameter wire running through it? > >Was the Trainphone used system wide or limited to certain regions? Was a >certain train assigned a specific frequency and could different trains >speak to each other? > >I hope I didn't ask to many questions. Any info you can provide would be >greatly appreciated. > >Kris Kollar > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====48545051495456505353===1 Subject: Trainphone FAQ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 97 13:15:29 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 737 Posted Doug Drew's explanation of the TrainPhone to "Keystone Crossings" as a FAQ. Thanks Doug! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Robert Johnston Subject: Re: PRR electrification at DC; Was Florida train power at Wash DC Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:22:00 -0500 Content-Length: 678 >Check me on this, but if I recall correctly, didn't the PRR electrification >extend across to Potomac Yard in Alexandria, [Robert Johnston] ... Yes, the Centenary frames are still in place3 from Union Station across the river into Alexandira. rwj ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out (fwd) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 12:50:38 EST Content-Length: 2493 > Regarding Mr. Vondruska's comments about the new winter issue of the PRRT&HS > "Keystone" magazine. I hope that he and others on this forum truly learn to > appreciate the efforts and production of this publication. The staff of this > historic society along with those of the other regional PRRT&HS chapters are > unpaid volunteers. They bring their professional and intellectual talents to > bear to bring all of us who are members GREAT and accurate historic documents > that are first rate reference materials. I don't think it is in anyone's best > interest to snipe or throw stones about their efforts. Brad, you may not have chatted over the Internet with Tom Vondruska much yet (are you a recent member of prr-talk?), but from my observations, Tom is not one to disparage anyone's good efforts. He (and others of us) _are_ discouraged sometimes at the "Philly, Horse Shoe, Pittsburgh, and something- or-other out west somewhere" attitudes of many PRR fans, but this sort of thing is reflected in PRR books as well, not just the _Keystone_. > I understand the > society has rebuffed several individuals who offered their digital expertise. > Perhaps becoming a member, getting involved at meetings, having a say, casting > a vote for officers may prove to be the most direct route to making changes. I was one of those that felt rebuffed. (Actually, more like ignored. I don't know if this ignoring is active or passive. I may be overinterpreting.) But as to your comments. We are members. Personally, I'm a member of 2 chapters plus national. I vote. I attended meetings when I lived in Philly. I maintain connections with some 'higher-up' members whom I know. I don't know everyone. Sorry to say, it hasn't helped. > The Philadelphia Chapter PRRT&HS has its next meeting 12/6/97 at the Drexel > Hill United Methodist Church in Philadelphia. Starts at 11:30 with a modelers > forum: PRR Diesels model contest, followed by the regular meeting and > presentations at 1 p.m. Get involved; plan to attend. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Trainphone (fwd) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 12:57:45 EST Content-Length: 759 > >Can anyone explain a little about the PRR's Trainphone (or Train Phone?) > >communication system? > > If someone wants to do a nice write-up on this, I'll post it as a FAQ at > "Keystone Crossings". I have 2-3 snippets, not formally written up, already on http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/trainphone.html -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: K-5, now P70's Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:57:47 -0600 Content-Length: 974 Harry Fitch wrote: "I have a set of the original Bachmann offerings because I was dumb enough to believe the reports that they were only going to be run once. If I would have waited and it was true, I guess I would have been even dumber!" Harry, I had some "collector" who wanted to sell me his original offerings of $15 P70s at $30 apiece. Fortunately, I hesitated just long enough for Bachmann's rerun to occur. The last three or four I obtained were throw-ins with a Bachmann K4 for about $60 at a swap meet. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: MP-54's Again Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:04:42 -0600 Content-Length: 948 Gene Chase wrote: " when Pennsy rebuilt nrs. 409-450, MP-54s in the Wilmington shops in 1950-53, did they replace all the Hyatt trucks with newer equalized trucks? Does anyone make these in HO? In the picture of 411, they sort of look like modified Commonwealth ones." I am not at home so I apologize for incomplete answers like this, but Pennsy Power III has a photo of MP54's with the newer trucks with an explanation--can't remember what it was, but at least it is a direction to go for info. Bob Zoeller. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: New Freedom Station Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:18:19 -0600 Content-Length: 2018 My post on the Milwaukee train show got lost in cyberspace,but I mentioned there was a sample of the kit there and it is beautiful, as are most of AMB's kits. In that lost message, I mentioned that it was painted in depot buff and asked if that was the true color, out of curiosity. I have standardized on "light building color" for a family appearance. I am also reasking if anyone on the list knows if PRR standardized on building paint schemes by division or region. Bob Zoeller ---------- From: Jerry Britton Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 1997 9:23 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: New Freedom Station Don't know how I missed it twice, but third time through the new Model Railroader I found an American Model Builder's ad in a lower left corner. (Forget the page number and don't have it with me; check the ad index.) Anyway, there's a photo of the new New Freedom Station model. This station was typical of many built at the time. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 13:39:21 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: Trainphone Content-Length: 2440 Greetings to Kris and the group, To answer your first question, the PRR promotional film _Progress on the Rails_ has a segement on the train phone system with some animated graphics that explains how it works and what the PRR used it for. I've seen video tapes with this film as part of a group of PRR films on them. Bill and Doug gave a pretty good description. However, it needs to be emphasised that it was an inductive system and not radio. Sort of like the inductive intercom and remote stereo speaker systems that were popular in the 60s and 70s where the signal was imposed on your house wiring. The train phone voice signal (down in the hundreds of kilohertz range i.e. very low freguency) from the towers was imposed on one of the line side wires. This induced a signal of the same frequency on the 'antenna' on the engine or cabin car (more like a signal probe than an antenna). The coil looking device tuned the 'antenna' to the low frequency signal. The coil allowed the 'antenna' to be shorter than really needed for the frequency. The same worked in reverse. The trains inductive 'antenna' induced the signal on the line side wires. Since the wires were long enough, tuning coils would not necessarily be needed in the towers. However I'm not sure how the PRR exactly had the towers set up. Equipment in the tower would have included an isolation transformer to separate the voice signal from whatever else the wire was being used for. I have even seen photos of portable train phone equipment. It was rather large and used a loop 'antenna'. The train phone system used two channels. They were designated 'H' and 'L'. This system should have been able to work perfectly fine in the electrified portions. The difference in frequency between the voice signal and AC overhead should have allowed the separation of the voice signal without undue hum. However, I can't remember ever seeing a photo of a GG I with train phone equipment. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 13:40:36 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Trainphone -Reply Content-Length: 952 bill.laird@coastalcorp.com wrote: > >..... However, the PRR was not the only RR to experiment with > early communications systems, I believe UP was another.... Bill, and the Group: In the late 1940's and early '50's, KCS locomotives had a communications system which made use of a long, horizontal rooftop antenna very similar to the PRR's. I do not know whether it was radio or an inductive system. About the same time the MP had what I thought was radio, but I never saw any visible antennas. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: George Pierson's Tuscarora Valley RR Date: Thu, 4 Dec 97 16:04:54 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 974 I have just posted on "Keystone Crossings" a description and plan of George Pierson's HO Tuscarora Valley RR...which features the Middle Division and includes the coal wharf at Denholm. You've gotta see this!!! See http://prr.dsop.com/layouts/index.html . Remember, I can give your layout a home on the web too...and it's free! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 12/02/97 Date: Thu, 04 Dec 97 16:02:01 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1345 There's also a third book: Sobel, Robert. Fallen Colossus, The Great Crash of the Penn Central. Weybright and Talley. 1977. I think it's also out of print but offers yet another angle on the demise... Rob ------------------ I finally found my two books about the demise of the PRR. Most of my books have been in boxes since I moved 10 years ago, but these have been purchased since then. Michael Bezilla is right. One of the books is "No way to run a railroad". There is another one. Both books are out of print. However, I bought mine at a "Cancellation" book store. The first book is: The Wreck of the Penn Central; written by Joseph R. Daughen & Peter Binzen; published by Little, Brown and Company; copywrite in 1971. The second book is: No Way to Run a Railroad; written by Stephen Salsbury; published by McGraw-Hill Book Company; copywrite in 1982. Carl P. Izzo ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 16:59:52 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Trainphone Content-Length: 949 George Pierson wrote: > > RE the question on the trainphone, sometime in this past year (I've got it > at home) TRAINS magazine did an article on early radio communication on the > railroads which included a very nice section on the PRR's trainphone. You can read the article in the Trains Magazine Online page at http://www.kalmbach.com/trains/ >From there I clicked on Search, then entered "communications" and got several choices. Enjoy. The article was in the August, 1997, Trains Magazine. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 17:20:44 -0500 From: Chris Brandt Subject: Re: Trainphone Content-Length: 1208 Doug Drew wrote: > Does anyone know if it was used in the electrified zone, and if so, > how did electric engines pick up the signal? I don't know for sure, but such an inductive system would invariably encounter interference in the presence of 11,000 volts at 25 cps. (Especially since the trainphone 'antenna' looks to be oriented in the same direction as the catenary wire.) At the very least one might hear a quaint hum similar to an AM car radio travelling under high tension lines. Just a thought. -Chris -- _______ ____________\ /____________ __________\ P /__________ ___________\ R R /___________ ____________\ /____________ _____________\___/_____________ Chris Brandt cobrandt@eclipse.net http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: New Freedom Station Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 16:37:12 -0600 Content-Length: 1085 Rob Schoenberg wrote: "Does anyone have a paint mix for the PRR's light & dark building colors (cream/brown)?" I use Polly S military colors. It may be off slightly, but closest for brown I have come is Nato Tricolor Brown. Purists might try and mix it with something to come a little closer. Or I would welcome a better suggestion, myself. For the light building color (not buff), I use Khaki mixed 50/50 with Polly S reefer white. Watch which khaki though. There are two and one is not correct. I always forget to follow up on these promises (sorry, lots on my plate) but I will try and get the exact number when I am home. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963 Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 18:40:24 EST Subject: Re: more on the Florida trains Content-Length: 560 My 1938 ACL Timetable does definately say Diesel south of Washington! Sorry I did not respond sooner, had a computer problem. Harold ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 21:03:16 EST Subject: Re: Re Trains to Florida Content-Length: 732 In a message dated 97-12-04 10:32:55 EST, rboydrrs@inlink.com writes: >Its a shame the RF&P never electrified: we might have seen GG-1 in Broad Street Station, Richmond! We may yet live to see catenary to Richmond. But I'm afraid the ceremonial first train won't be hauled by a GG-1 ! Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 21:03:17 EST Subject: Re: PRR in Wash area Content-Length: 898 In a message dated 97-12-04 10:33:08 EST, you write: > Sure, there would have been smoke in the >> tunnel but not much since they were not that long. Another factor here is that the tunnel is on a steep southward downgrade. Trains leaving Washington could just release brakes and get moving with virtually no smoke. Trains arriving, if in the hands of a capable engineman, could drift most of the way through the tunnel on their own momentum. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GLD 828 Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 23:03:35 EST Subject: Attn: N-Scalers Content-Length: 638 As a fellow Pennsy N-Scaler, I'm looking for a pair of Atlas Gp30's #4734 & 4735. If you have these and are willing to sell or trade these for something Please e-mail $/ trade and condition to gld828@aol.com Thanx ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 23:09:42 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out Content-Length: 3450 Many of us would like to have the opportuninity to attend such meetings. When they hold one close enough for me to drive, I will certainly try. The furthest east would be Columbus Ohio. What, inconvenient for founding members to head West? Hmm. Do they really want my participation. I know. It would be nice, but . . . This is no slam. It is a recognition of fact. I live outside of the envisioned active area of the Society, and do not have the finances to just travel for such a meeting. Maybe it would be etter would be to hold the meetings & voting electronically for those who cannot come in person. I joined the Society this year. The KEYSTONE is my only tangible benefit. It is certainly first rate. The Society will need to grow in new directions, or it will atrophy. It has the potential to be one of the Web areas that just pulls people in. Look at the quality of the KEYSTONE. It will require thinking "outside the box" to make it happen. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS BowerPRR wrote: > > Regarding Mr. Vondruska's comments about the new winter issue of the > PRRT&HS > "Keystone" magazine. I hope that he and others on this forum truly > learn to > appreciate the efforts and production of this publication. The staff > of this > historic society along with those of the other regional PRRT&HS > chapters are > unpaid volunteers. They bring their professional and intellectual > talents to > bear to bring all of us who are members GREAT and accurate historic > documents > that are first rate reference materials. I don't think it is in > anyone's best > interest to snipe or throw stones about their efforts. I understand > the > society has rebuffed several individuals who offered their digital > expertise. > Perhaps becoming a member, getting involved at meetings, having a say, > casting > a vote for officers may prove to be the most direct route to making > changes. > If that fails, then this forum could elevate itself to become the > caliber of > publication that would rival the "Keystone". That would require > responsible > unpaid volunteers! > > The Philadelphia Chapter PRRT&HS has its next meeting 12/6/97 at the > Drexel > Hill United Methodist Church in Philadelphia. Starts at 11:30 with a > modelers > forum: PRR Diesels model contest, followed by the regular meeting and > presentations at 1 p.m. Get involved; plan to attend. > > Brad Bower > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", > a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html > . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 23:31:26 EST Subject: Re: Trainphone (LONG!!!) Content-Length: 1258 One important fact about the 1'' piping used as antenna. It was 1'' conduit that was insulated from the carbody. Inside was the actual antenna wire. The piping was protection from the elements to preserve the antenna. To see what trainphones look like without the piping look at pictures of some early Kansas City Southern E units. They were also equipted with trainphones but without the protective piping. I found out about trainphone construction from some PRR diagrams while considering installing them on my 1 to 1 PRR N-5C. By the way for post trainphone modelers not all of the posts were cut off when removed. My N-5C ex PRR 477822 /CR 23145 still has the bases of both the pipe supports and receiver discs still on the roof. Ken McCorry ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Trainphone From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 97 08:32:12 -0500 Content-Length: 1015 Drew McGheesaid (in part): . . . > >This system (train phone) should have been able to work perfectly fine in the electrified >portions. The difference in frequency between the voice signal and AC >overhead should have allowed the separation of the voice signal without >undue hum. However, I can't remember ever seeing a photo of a GG I with >train phone equipment. > >Drew R. McGhee - ------- Would an antenna have been neceessary on a GG-1 if the signal had been induced in the catenary. I GG-1 was in direct contact with the catenary! reggards Andy MIller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [Pass.] Fw: Eventide and Noctrune color scheme? From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 97 08:52:10 -0500 Content-Length: 1240 . . . > Were they relettered when Pennsy took ownership, with "Pennsylvania" >replacing "Pullman" on the letterboards, and the numbers added on the sides >towards both ends? > And, were the cars actually scrapped (or set aside for scrapping) when >they were withdrawn from lease, or did the Pennsy operate them for a while? > >Tom Madden > - ----- As I recall, all of the Pullmans becsame RR property and were leased back to Pullman as a result of the 1948 break-up of the Pullman monopoly. So the cars would have gottne the PENNSYLVANIA letterboard shortly after 1948, if ever. The PRR did not assign numbers to pullmans until som e time arou 1955. So E and N would only have had numbers on their sides for the last few months of their life, if ever. regars Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 05 Dec 97 08:53:50 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: New Keystone Is Out Content-Length: 11680 --====55544951534948545556===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Given the size and influence of the PRR, having a society with a single meeting location in the far-eastern part of the system doesn't seem like a good approach, even if Philly was the Company HQ. This type of situation leads to the 'chauvinism' toward certain areas of the railroad, specifically, those that the frequent meeting attendees are closest to. It seems the PRRT&HS could follow the NMRA model, with branches set up by divisions or regions, i.e. the Fort Wayne, the Panhandle, Pittsburgh, etc. and having regional society meetings in locations central to those divisions or regions. I suspect the 'guiding lights' of the organization would prefer to keep "control" centralized in the Philadelphia area, but members from the outer reaches of the railroad (or beyond) do not get to benefit from the fellowship aspect of the group meetings. Larry P. Morgan wrote: >Many of us would like to have the opportuninity to attend such meetings. >When they hold one close enough for me to drive, I will certainly try. >The furthest east would be Columbus Ohio. >What, inconvenient for founding members to head West? >Hmm. Do they really want my participation. >I know. It would be nice, but . . . >This is no slam. It is a recognition of fact. I live outside of the >envisioned active area of the Society, and do not have the finances to >just travel for such a meeting. > >Maybe it would be etter would be to hold the meetings & voting >electronically for those who cannot come in person. > >I joined the Society this year. >The KEYSTONE is my only tangible benefit. >It is certainly first rate. > >The Society will need to grow in new directions, or it will atrophy. >It has the potential to be one of the Web areas that just pulls people >in. Look at the quality of the KEYSTONE. It will require thinking >"outside the box" to make it happen. >-- >Larry Morgan >lpmorgan@iquest.net >Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) >TCA/TTOS > >BowerPRR wrote: >> >> Regarding Mr. Vondruska's comments about the new winter issue of the >> PRRT&HS >> "Keystone" magazine. I hope that he and others on this forum truly >> learn to >> appreciate the efforts and production of this publication. The staff >> of this >> historic society along with those of the other regional PRRT&HS >> chapters are >> unpaid volunteers. They bring their professional and intellectual >> talents to >> bear to bring all of us who are members GREAT and accurate historic >> documents >> that are first rate reference materials. I don't think it is in >> anyone's best >> interest to snipe or throw stones about their efforts. I understand >> the >> society has rebuffed several individuals who offered their digital >> expertise. >> Perhaps becoming a member, getting involved at meetings, having a say, >> casting >> a vote for officers may prove to be the most direct route to making >> changes. >> If that fails, then this forum could elevate itself to become the >> caliber of >> publication that would rival the "Keystone". That would require >> responsible >> unpaid volunteers! >> >> The Philadelphia Chapter PRRT&HS has its next meeting 12/6/97 at the >> Drexel >> Hill United Methodist Church in Philadelphia. Starts at 11:30 with a >> modelers >> forum: PRR Diesels model contest, followed by the regular meeting and >> presentations at 1 p.m. Get involved; plan to attend. >> >> Brad Bower >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------- >> Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", >> a >> cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html >> . >> ------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >> "listmaster@dsop.com". > >-- >Larry Morgan >lpmorgan@iquest.net >Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) >TCA/TTOS > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====55544951534948545556===1 Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 08:27:45 -0600 From: Bob Webber Subject: Re: New Keystone Is Out Content-Length: 2252 Regarding the Philly-centric view of the society: Several of the societies/clubs I belong to are centralized in Colorado. Some of the most active members are in the New Jersey/Northeast area. What they did is to "create" their own "division" to have informal get-togethers to keep the fires stoked. Some other societies have similar chauvenistic views. The SP society has a lot of members in the east Texas/Arkansas/Louisiana area that have felt left out because everyone looks at the coast lines as the "real" SP. The Santa Fe is a little different - they have several "core" areas - but there are some areas that feel left out as well - and remember, a trip from Chicago to Philly is a lot less miles than from, say Amarillo to LA or Chicago. Hell, the miles from Texarkana to El Paso is more than from Philly to Chicago - and that's all in the same state. I think if there are real foamers out there for the PRR in, say the Chicago area, that they should get together and have a mini-convention or a informal meeting at peoples houses. You are not going to get the "brass" in Philly to look at a Lines West convention or meeting until some organization is shown. Having said all that, my 2 cents worth regarding the Keystone: It is probably the best (or in the top 5) of railroad realted historical societies publications. The C&O society is pretty close. I don't recall anybody complaining about the Keystone. The complaint that started this whole thread related to the web site, the refusal of help for that site, the static nature of the site, and the recent calls for help for that site. Given the quality of the Keystone, there should be no reason not to have a first rate web site - especially given the talent for creating such in just this group of PRR fans. Bob Webber ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:59:03 -0500 (EST) From: Roger Kirkpatrick Subject: Re: New Keystone Is Out Content-Length: 1053 The problem of central power/meeting place is a sore point in the ACL/SAL Hist.Soc. which some call the Florida Folks Historical Club. Cheers, Roger _______ S. Roger Kirkpatrick ______|_____| [ ] |___________ 927 Colegate Drive | | | | Marietta, OH 45750 | | [ ] [ ] | | | | | | Fax - 614-376-4777 |__|______________________|__| Home - 614-374-6732 O<=>O O<=>O ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 05 Dec 97 11:37:52 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: Trainphone Content-Length: 8181 --====50555048485354545054===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Last night I went home and found the Trains article on this subject. I will be changing the writeup about TrainPhone I posted that Jerry put up on his site, as a few of the major details were wrong -- such is the hazard of writing from memory. The Trains article was written by one of the people from the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, so I believe it's accurate. According to the article, the large "handrail" antennae were used to *induce* the current into the lineside wires, or rails (wires carried the induced current farther). The small disc devices *received* the signals, and they were in pairs so one could receive the high band frequency, and one for the low band frequency. This general setup is the opposite of what I had stated. Block cabins and other lineside structures simply had their trainphone devices attached to the lineside wires or rails, and received the signal that way. The wires and rails were the "receiving and broadcasting antennae' for fixed structures, and so there was no need for a separate inducer/receivers as appeared on moveable equipment. The alerting speakers were separate from the TrainPhone handset box itself. TrainPhone was not used in the electrified zone, due to interference from the 25 cycle overhead current, and 'noise' from the locomotives' internal electrical equipment and traction motors. This was unfortunate, as the New York Zone had PRR's highest train density, and one assumes, could have used TrainPhone the most. I was also in error by implying this system was exclusively used by PRR. As Steven Bartlett and other people have already stated, Kansas City Southern had a substantial installation, and other roads such as B&LE had much more modest installations for specific purposes. Pennsy certainly was the largest user of Inductive Train Telephone technology in terms of applications to equipment and stations, and stuck with it long after railroad service band frequencies become available again after the war. It *did* have advantages over radio, particularly in the deep valleys, cuts and tunnels PRR often traveled through. My apologies for any confusion that may have arisen from my original post. asmiller wrote: >Drew McGheesaid (in part): >. > . > . >> >>This system (train phone) should have been able to work perfectly fine in the >electrified >>portions. The difference in frequency between the voice signal and AC >>overhead should have allowed the separation of the voice signal without >>undue hum. However, I can't remember ever seeing a photo of a GG I with >>train phone equipment. >> >>Drew R. McGhee >- ------- > >Would an antenna have been neceessary on a GG-1 if the signal had been induced >in the catenary. I GG-1 was in direct contact with the catenary! > > >reggards >Andy MIller > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====50555048485354545054===1 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 16:38:24 +0000 Subject: Re: Attn: N-Scalers From: locoshop@juno.com (Jeremy C Helms) Content-Length: 564 Hello all, Just a word on the N-scale Atlas PRR GP30 should be re released by Atlas later in their classics line of locos. Jeremy Helms ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: new PRR parts. Date: Fri, 05 Dec 97 12:44:20 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1270 HEre's some interesting new PRR detail parts coming out.... Looks like time to get some more GP9's.... Rob 331 - Hi-Tech Details Manu Item Description Scale Price Expected 331- 5011 B Unit Conversion Kit -- For Proto 2000 H $ 6.95 12/31/1997 GP-9 Locomotives UP/PRR 190 - Cal Scale Manu Item Description Scale Price Expected 190- 488 PRR RS Reciever Box -- Mounts On the H $ 2.50 12/31/1997 Short Hood 190- 489 Slack Adjuster -- PRR RS Locomotives H $ 2.50 12/31/1997 190- 490 Passenger Car Marker Lights -- PRR H $ 2.50 12/31/1997 190- 493 Tender Water Scoop Controls -- PRR H $ 2.50 12/31/1997 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Keystone on the net Date: Fri, 5 Dec 97 15:05:19 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 2166 On 12/5/97 3:29 PM, Robert A. Boyd (rboydrrs@inlink.com) wrote: >The worrysome thing is that the Keystones (which ARE truly outstanding) are >the work of one man. When he folds up, what then? I wasn't aware that any single person was doing The Keystone. How long has this been the case? Is this a volunteer thing, or is this a paid venture? I ask this as I definitely have the background to produce this magazine, in its present form. Although I am currently a "Systems Administrator", that's because I like tinkering with computers and networks. My current employer does pre-press work for the college textbook industry. I manage the hardware, software, and massive server array of 180 gigabytes of storage! Prior to that, I was "Director of Publications" for a college and personally produced the alumni magazine, annual reports, and hundreds of other documents annually. I got into the publishing industry after several years of selling desktop publishing equipment to firms that swore electronic publishing would never take off!!! Anyway, my allotment of volunteer hours is filled beyond capacity with my Web site. However, there's always time for paid ventures -- even at below market value -- as it offsets the cost of my Internet connection. As an added bonus, my experience would allow post-production of The Keystone directly to Acrobat PDF format for potential paid distribution via the Internet or CD-ROM. Food for thought....for when the current "single person" retires! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:28:19 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Re Trains to Florida Content-Length: 1301 So Rich Copeland adds: >>Its a shame the RF&P never electrified: we might have seen GG-1 in Broad >Street Station, Richmond! > >We may yet live to see catenary to Richmond. But I'm afraid the >ceremonial first train won't be hauled by a GG-1 ! ===== Well now, seeing that the GG-1 is, in many ways, the essence of US heavy electrification, and seeing that there are a goodly number of them in various museums (many of which are likely servicable or could be made so) a ceremonial first train hauled by a GG-1 as a salute to tradition is not all that unlikely! Bob Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" ____________________________________________ "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com "The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service" ____ooo___ooo__oo_0000_o_o__________________ ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:29:25 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Keystone on the net Content-Length: 1643 >Maybe it would be better would be to hold the meetings & voting >electronically for those who cannot come in person. > >I joined the Society this year. >The KEYSTONE is my only tangible benefit. >It is certainly first rate. > >The Society will need to grow in new directions, or it will atrophy. >It has the potential to be one of the Web areas that just pulls people >in. Look at the quality of the KEYSTONE. It will require thinking >"outside the box" to make it happen. ====== The worrysome thing is that the Keystones (which ARE truly outstanding) are the work of one man. When he folds up, what then? As to electronic access: this might happen in another decade, but right now not everyone has access to the net. There are a lot of folks back east who are "outside" of that territory. I really like the idea of a posted index of archives- I will pass that along to other SIGs I know! Bob Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" ____________________________________________ "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com "The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service" ____ooo___ooo__oo_0000_o_o__________________ ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 14:53:40 -0500 From: Charles Ring Subject: Re: Re Trains to Florida Content-Length: 1312 Robert A. Boyd wrote: > > So Rich Copeland adds: > > >>Its a shame the RF&P never electrified: we might have seen GG-1 in Broad > >Street Station, Richmond! > > > >We may yet live to see catenary to Richmond. But I'm afraid the > >ceremonial first train won't be hauled by a GG-1 ! > > ===== > > Well now, seeing that the GG-1 is, in many ways, the essence of US heavy > electrification, and seeing that there are a goodly number of them in > various museums (many of which are likely servicable or could be made so) a > ceremonial first train hauled by a GG-1 as a salute to tradition is not all > that unlikely! > Would any new catenary supply the 10KV at 25 cps the GG-1 needs? A while back on the Fidonet Railroad echo someone said there was a chance one GG-1 would be adapted to use modern 60 cps power. Does anyone here know if that plan is still viable? ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Keystone on the net (fwd) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 16:29:42 EST Content-Length: 693 > I wasn't aware that any single person was doing The Keystone. How long > has this been the case? Is this a volunteer thing, or is this a paid > venture? Volunteer. _Editing_ is a single person. (Chuck Blardone). _Articles_ are the work of many. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 17:51:03 EST Subject: Singed LINESWEST responds (was: re;new Keystone is out) Content-Length: 1621 To all: The flaming which has left the aroma of singed beard was deserved if I insulted those who work hard on getting the Keystone out. I can quibble detailsover page design but the content and intent is first rate. On the issue of getting involved, I have to agree with Larry Morgan. I am now beginning planning how to geet to the '98 meet. I'll tll you convincing my wifethat I should go 600 miles for three days to talk trains ain't going to be easy. I guess my frustration is that the PRRT&HS has been taking the name of the Pennsylvania Railroad too literally. In my western meeting thread last summer, all the meetings mentioned were in the Keystone State. The name may have been Pennsylvania but therailroad served 13 states, eight of which were served by PRR Lines West (Penn, Ohio, Mich., W.Va, Ky.,Ind, Ill., Mo. and Iowa (from 189-1927). Lines East Served only 6 Penn, N.J., N.Y., Del., Md., Va. Ohio was second only yo Pennsylvania in the amount of PRR right of way within its bordera and I'll arguethatIndiana in the 1940s, before the first wave of abandonments., was a clear thirds, again in solely track mileage. In a side conversation a comment ws ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: Re Trains to Florida Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:09:34 -0500 Content-Length: 2275 I love the GG1's but the fly in the ointment is who would want to deal with the hazmat of a 60 year old locomotive and also who would want to supply 11,000 volt- 25 Hertz electrical catenary? (Hazmat, I wonder what was in those GG1 transformers?) Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ---------- > From: Robert A. Boyd > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: Re Trains to Florida > Date: Friday, December 05, 1997 2:28 PM > > So Rich Copeland adds: > > >>Its a shame the RF&P never electrified: we might have seen GG-1 in Broad > >Street Station, Richmond! > > > >We may yet live to see catenary to Richmond. But I'm afraid the > >ceremonial first train won't be hauled by a GG-1 ! > > ===== > > Well now, seeing that the GG-1 is, in many ways, the essence of US heavy > electrification, and seeing that there are a goodly number of them in > various museums (many of which are likely servicable or could be made so) a > ceremonial first train hauled by a GG-1 as a salute to tradition is not all > that unlikely! > > Bob Boyd > Those Classic Trains > "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" > ____________________________________________ > > "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com > "The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service" > > ____ooo___ooo__oo_0000_o_o__________________ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:54:04 EST Subject: Re: Trainphone Content-Length: 907 In a message dated 97-12-05 13:34:38 EST, George.Pierson@trnty.edu writes: << By the early 1960s it was being phased out - I seem to recall that some GP 30's were delivered with trainphone. There's also an entertaining treatment of trainphone in that PRR b&w promo film from the 1940s which is widely available in video. >> All of the GP30's were delivered with trainphones. The last trainphones were installed in U25B's in late 1962 to early1963. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 19:33:31 EST Subject: Re: Singed LINESWEST responds (was: re;new Keystone is out) Content-Length: 1470 In a message dated 97-12-05 18:06:49 EST, LINESWEST@aol.com writes: << On the issue of getting involved, I have to agree with Larry Morgan. I am now beginning planning how to geet to the '98 meet. I'll tll you convincing my wifethat I should go 600 miles for three days to talk trains ain't going to be easy >> The 1998 convention is litteraly across the tracks from the Lancaster station. You just need to climb the fence on each side including 5 stands of barb wire. Don't drive take the train. If I recall properly the hotel has van service to the station. Alternatively, bring your wife along and rent a car for her. There are special tours for spouses also all the Lancaster outlet shops and the Amish country is near by. If you bring the little ones, you are only about 1 1/4 hour drive from Hershey Park and Chocolate Town USA. You get to 1) ride the train, 2) talk trains, 3) take them on vacation at the same time. Only drawback is the timing. Kids would need to miss a few days of school depending on age. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 00:38:02 +0000 Subject: FOR SALE: Pennsy items for sale(LONG) From: locoshop@juno.com (Jeremy C Helms) Content-Length: 5007 Hello all, I am going to be the first to attempt this sale thing. The following list is LONG. I am NOT a dealer, just a youngster (27) working on nailing down a modeling era that I like and fits my desires. I will post this once and only once. Feel free to email me at LocoShop@Juno.com. (Do not let the screen name fool you--I tried to start a custom diesel detailing business that failed.) I can take money order, check, or credit card (thanks to a great local hobby shop owner). Items go first come, first serve. No items on this list have over 5 hours of running time on them and most have none due to the fact that I have no layout to run them on. All details listed under the item are included in the deal. Thanks for putting up with this. Kato EMD NW2 PRR #3909 $30.00 Proto 2000 EMD GP9 #7221 $60.00 New in box w/ Cal Scale #408 Antenna Support System un installed Proto 2000 EMD GP9 #7206 $60.00 New in box w/ Cal Scale #408 Antenna Support System un installed Proto 2000 EMD GP9 #7206 $53.00 New in box Proto 2000 EMD SD7 #8588 $25.00 Assembled with little running time (under 5 hours) Proto 2000 EMD SW9 #8529 $25.00 Assembled with little running time (under 5 hours) Proto 2000 EMD SW9 #8521 $25.00 Assembled with little running time (under 5 hours) Proto 2000 EMD E8A #5797 $45.00 Assembled with no running time w/single stripe Proto 2000 EMD E8A #5713 $45.00 Assembled with no running time w/single stripe Proto 2000 ALCo FA2 #9620 $60.00 Assembled with little running time (under 5 hours) & includes un installed Cal Scale #461 Dynamic Brake and #459 Antenna Support Set Proto 2000 ALCo FA2 No# $40.00 Unit has less than 5 hours running time and is in the middle of being repainted & has installed a Cal Scale #461 Dynamic brake and #459 Antenna Support Set along with appropriate Detail Associates grab irons on the sid of the nose Proto 2000 ALCo FB2 No# $20.00 Unit is un powered with a Cal Scale #461 Dynamic Brake installed ready for paint and decals Proto 2000 EMD E7A #5863 $60.00 New in box w/ Cal Scale #412 Antenna Support System un installed Proto 2000 EMD E7A #5860 $60.00 New in box w/ Cal Scale #412 Antenna Support System un installed Proto 2000 EMD E7B #5856B $35.00 New in box Proto 2000 EMD E7B #5862B $35.00 New in box Stewart F3A Phase 4 PRR $90.00 Assembled in box no running time with Kadee conversion kit already installed and includes Detail Associates detail kit #701 for F units, Cal Scale #402 Antenna Support Set, and American Limited #9910 Operating Diaphragms un installed Stewart F3A Phase 4 PRR $90.00 Assembled in box no running time with Kadee conversion kit already installed and includes Detail Associates detail kit #701 for F units, Cal Scale #402 Antenna Support Set, and American Limited #9910 Operating Diaphragms un installed Stewart F3A Phase 2 PRR $90.00 Assembled in box no running time with Kadee conversion kit already installed and includes Detail Associates detail kit #701 for F units, Cal Scale #402 Antenna Support Set, and American Limited #9910 Operating Diaphragms un installed Bachmann GP30s PRR $35.00 Pair of Bachmann Spectrum GP30s that include un installed Cal Scale Antenna Set Rivarossi 1930's PRR Set A $60.00 This set includes Baggage, Coach, and Diner with the Vista Dome removed All have body mounted Kadee #5 couplers and are new, never run cars Rivarossi 1930's PRR Set B $80.00 This set includes R.P.O., Roomette, Duplex Sleeper, and Trail Car All have body mounted Kadee #5 couplers and are new, never run cars Bowser #54097 PRR H21A $108.00 This is a set of 12 car numbers that have been assembled with Kadee wheels and Kadee #5 couplers, only sold as set, never run (Circle Keystone) Red Caboose PRR X29 $65.00 These cars are in Circle Keystone and contains 6 different car numbers all assembled with Kadee wheels and couplers Bowser #477863 N-5c PRR $15.00 N-5c cabin car in Shadow Keystone for the Eastern region with Cal Scale brass caboose antenna, Kadee wheels, and couplers installed Bowser #477110 N-5 PRR $20.00 N-5 cabin car old style Pittsburgh Division with Cal Scale brass caboose antenna, Run 8 windows, Kadee wheels, and couplers installed Precision Scale Co. 16240-2 $125.00 N-8 Cabin Car with antenna installed, factory painted Jeremy Helms ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 00:44:40 +0000 Subject: Questions?? From: locoshop@juno.com (Jeremy C Helms) Content-Length: 1201 Good evening to all, I had a couple of questions I was wondering if anyone could answer. First I was wondering when the Pennsylvania Railroad changed their lettering on cars from the old way of spelling out Pennsylvania and went to the Circle Keystone emblem? Also when was the change from Circle Keystone to Shadow Keystone? When did PRR change their passenger locos from DGLE 5 stripe to Tuscan 5 stripe and then to single stripe with shadow keystone? Also a tag onto the string on the trainphone--when did PRR start to use this system by installing it on their locos? I seemed to have missed it on the string currently going on this topic and do not have access right now to the internet to get to Jerry's fine page. Thanks for any answers. Jeremy Helms ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:52:21 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: hazmats in the GG 1s Content-Length: 1931 >>I love the GG1's but the fly in the ointment is who would >>want to deal with the hazmat of a 60 year old locomotive >>and also who would want to supply 11,000 volt- 25 Hertz >>electrical catenary? > >(Hazmat, I wonder what was in those GG1 transformers?) > >Harry W. Fitch >hfitch@maranatha.net ===== I understand that the cooling oil in the main transformers had PCB in it: a preservative that is believed to cause cancer. As I recall, when the GG 1s were first retired, there was a big hassle over sending them to museums because the EPA wanted the transmissions removed and stored - oil and all - at a cost of some $5000 each. Evidently they solved that problem, seeing all the G motors that went to museums in the last few years. However, I wonder if they have transformers in them, or was the oil finally drained and legally disposed of? Would anyone with access to a GG 1 know what the story is? BTW: one wonders, had these environmental regs been around in 1950, how many old steamers would exist today with all that asbestos insulation? Still, it is necessary: its just a shame that some provision can't seem to be made for preserving contaminated antiques. Bob Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" ____________________________________________ "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com "The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service" ____ooo___ooo__oo_0000_o_o__________________ ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W.C. Knepper" Subject: Re: New Freedom Station-----Again! Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 22:24:50 -0500 Content-Length: 5129 Hello Bob, I have an advanced copy of the New Freedom Station kit.......It is beautiful.....The correct colors for the station varies with the time that you model the building. The kit models the station from 1890's to 1925-30 range. ( I have pictures of the station in the 1890's to 1925-30 time frame and 1940 to 1997) In the 1930-35 to present ...the station had horizontal German Wainscoting (fancy horizontal siding)the colors for board and batten siding - yellow okra (a natural pigment), the trim (around windows,doors,roof brace trim, etc.) - a chocolate brown (dark), the windows were a burgundy color. In the 30's the station was painted a light building buff, with chocolate trim, and burgundy windows. I have a picture (in Color) of the 1953 color scheme which was - siding - medium gray, trim - dark gary, windows - burgundy, and to end it all.......in 1979 a boy scout painted the station (Conrail blue with white trim) for his Eagle project.........Today it is falling down! The station is now starting ----RESTORATION ........Yes , it will come down to the ground and be rebuilt, using as much of the original material as possible...... The York County Rail / Trail Authority has signed the contract to do the work, starting December 3td, 1997. (IF YOU ARE IN NEW FREEDOM......STAY AWAY FROM THE STATION)......I'll get Jerry to put some of my pictures of the inside of the station if he wants to.....(Jerry you have my number) This is a project that I have been working towards sense 1979 when I moved into New Freedom. The AMB kit for the station, was brought about by some members of the "Northern Central Chapter of the PRRT&HS" we meet in York, Pa. 4 times a year.....( for info contact me on e-mail) Dutch Boy paints that are real close are : Bullion 2-Y-4 (WALLS), WOODRIDGE 1-O-5 (TRIM), PASSION 2-R-5 (WINDOWS) for the early years. Hope that this is of some intrest to some of you......................................................................... ........At least it's not downing some one, or the PRRT&HS...................If it weren't for the PRRT&HS you would probably be modeling the PB&R (Push,Bump & Ram) and thats really exciting !!!!!!!!!!! Bill Knepper Planning Committee New Freedom Station Project (I do believe the the Summit of the line at 851.3 feet above sea level) another SPF... ---------- > From: Bob Zoeller > To: PRR-Talk ; 'Jerry Britton' > Subject: RE: New Freedom Station > Date: Thursday, December 04, 1997 1:18 PM > > My post on the Milwaukee train show got lost in cyberspace,but I mentioned there was a sample of the kit there and it is beautiful, as are most of AMB's kits. In that lost message, I mentioned that it was painted in depot buff and asked if that was the true color, out of curiosity. I have standardized on "light building color" for a family appearance. I am also reasking if anyone on the list knows if PRR standardized on building paint schemes by division or region. > > Bob Zoeller > > ---------- > From: Jerry Britton > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 1997 9:23 AM > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: New Freedom Station > > Don't know how I missed it twice, but third time through the new Model > Railroader I found an American Model Builder's ad in a lower left corner. > (Forget the page number and don't have it with me; check the ad index.) > > Anyway, there's a photo of the new New Freedom Station model. This > station was typical of many built at the time. > > --------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > Progressive Information Technologies > britton@pit-magnus.com > http://www.pit-magnus.com > 1 JPEG = 1K words > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W.C. Knepper" Subject: Re: New Freedom Station Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 22:43:31 -0500 Content-Length: 2320 Hi Rob, The kit is out......mine is an advance copy and it is great..........After this kit has had some time for AMB to make some money off of it, I'll get hold of them again and see if they would like to do a Northern Central tower ???? I have a copy of the plans for the one that stood in New Freedom, Pa. It had a square base and a hexagon top......building colors changed during the years........ Bill Knepper ---------- > From: Rob Schoenberg > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: New Freedom Station > Date: Wednesday, December 03, 1997 12:30 PM > > > Local shop didn't have the station yet but they did have the American Model Builders > PRR standard tool house kit. It's a nice kit. A bit later than the Kitbits version. > This one is a bit more "functional" looking, no fancy gingerbread. Just started building it. > > Does anyone have a paint mix for the PRR's light & dark building colors (cream/brown)? > > Rob > > > >Don't know how I missed it twice, but third time through the new Model > >Railroader I found an American Model Builder's ad in a lower left corner. > >(Forget the page number and don't have it with me; check the ad index.) > > > >Anyway, there's a photo of the new New Freedom Station model. This > >station was typical of many built at the time. > > > >--------------------------------------------- > >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:49:47 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Lines West activities? Content-Length: 2376 And Bob Weber writes: >Regarding the Philly-centric view of the society: > >Several of the societies/clubs I belong to are centralized in Colorado. >Some of the most active members are in the New Jersey/Northeast area. What >they did is to "create" their own "division" to have informal get-togethers >to keep the fires stoked. > >Some other societies have similar chauvenistic views. > >I think if there are real foamers out there for the PRR in, say the Chicago >area, that they should get together and have a mini-convention or a >informal meeting at peoples houses. You are not going to get the "brass" >in Philly to look at a Lines West convention or meeting until some >organization is shown. ====== The more I dig into the PRR phenom (and I must admit I was a typical "GG-1 SPF" when I joined the list) the more I am learning how much the Lines West has to offer. I am concerned that any sort of "Lines West" interest should not cause a split in the PRR community (a "Lines West SIG?") but if some sort of western regional thing can be put together and work to support the common cause, it would be a good thing. It would be essential that the "Lines West" make it plain that they are not a separatist movement (and that charge will be made by the Grand Dragons of the Old Guard), but within a loyalist context, there is no reason why all these nice things can't be done. It may well be that, if "Lines West" can start doing some dynamic things with web sites, regional meets and indexing the archives, it may goad the "Lines East" into being more active. A thought: why not call it "The P Company"? Bob Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" ____________________________________________ "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com "The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service" ____ooo___ooo__oo_0000_o_o__________________ ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 16:55:42 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: GG-1s,P.R.R.T&HS, PB&R Content-Length: 1633 Hello folks... Hmmm...as for the GG-1....maybe someone or corporation could adapt a sort of HEP car so the G could run...step down the voltage on a special car.? It would be nice if we had more local chapters for the P.R.R.t&hs...I belong to the Northern Central chapter.Now most of the folks in it are in Pa. But i live in southern Virginia...not really Pennsy country here... well there is whats left of the old N.Y.P&N down here...the old Pennsy orphan beach head in Norfolk ... I am from Baltimore and grew up next to the N.C.(really!)my dad used to rent the old freight station in Cockesville. Anyway it would help us lone P. men(and ladies) if there were some local group...I know there are P.R.R. modelers here some where. I saw Harry's (PB&R) Push,Bump&Ram thing...LOL The Pennsy used to(and conrail still does)had/have a connection to a little railroad called the Patapsco&Back River(s)(neck)(not sure about the spelling)It ran toward the Beth steel plant in Dundalk Md..from off of a spur near the Bayview yard in Baltimore.... There is a Prototype for everything...! LOL H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 19:23:24 EST Subject: Once-Singed LINESWEST responds once again Content-Length: 4925 Everything you're saying aboutt the convention soiund good but you're forgetting one thiing. Geography. According to the mileposts on I-70, Ohio is 221 miles wide. The I-70 entrance tramps nearest to Yellow Springs is at milepolst 51 (U.S. 68).My corner of Panhandleland is10 miles south of Springfield, Ohio, 10 miles north of Xenia, 20 miles east of Dayton and 50 miles west of Columbus. Its a four- five hour drive to Pittsburgh from here. I've been through Penn. several. It's like driving through Kansas. The statte seems to never end. Its three days of talking trains sandwiched between up to 8-hour drives, a task I may not be physically up to. I haven't the occasion to try since I was diagnosed with early Parkinson's in March 1996. My point is that the PRRT&HS needs to broaden its base. It needs to open itself to the vast number of modelers. It needs to realize that from the 1840s to 1960, the Pennsylvania Railraod Co. and its subsidiaries was the largest private employer and taxpayer in places like Xenia/Greene County, Ohio; Logansport/Cass Co., Ind.; Crestline/Wyandot Co., Ohio. I find it amazing that the majority of PRR modelers I talk to have only the faintest notion that the N6b was the most numerous class of cabin car in the late 1950s. Most of these modelers believe that the PRRT&HS is devoted to the PRR back east despite my protestations otherwidse. People back east seem to forget that places like Richmond, Ind., or Lima, Ohio, or Fort Wayne, Ind., had as many as 10 name trains stopping at their stations every day. One of the biggest mistakes of any volunteer organization is the failure to agressively recruit new members. Recruitment is one of the most important tasks for any organization counting on some other than wages or monetary reward to energize its membership. Often the old guard constantly complains that they are being taken forgranted, that no one else wants to the nasty work. What many don't realize is that they have rebuffed, or worse, ignored new people interestedn in getting involved. Busy people, such as Jerry Britton or Mark Bej, will mkeep an offer open only so long before moving on, angry that their generous offer was ignored. I haven't offered because I've seen very little indication that the PRR leadership is interested in working with anyone outside of Pennsylvania. It's easy to say that the PRRT&HS won't be interested in activities outside of Pennsylvania. I am forced to respond, what indication has the Society leadership given that it is interested in cultivating an active PRR membership in, lets says, the the seven states served by Lines West west of the PA-OH/PA-WVa stateline. I live out here. I know a number of Pennsylvania modelers. Mnay of them have been a member at one time or another but dropped out because the society wasn't addressing their needs--as a modeler or as a fan on PRR Lines West. If it is true that The Keystone primarily the labor of one person, the Society is risking much by placing its eggs in one basket. If for any number of reasons that single person is unable to continue contributing at the level current members are used to, any slippage in quality could have a disasterous effect on membershiip. KC'ers like Jerry and Myself and a number of others have profession experience in journalism, public relations, publishing and related fields. In this age of comupters and high speed modems, it doesn't really matter where any of live live as long as we keep the Phone Co. happy. I'm currently helping a fellow in Kent, Ohio, about 220 miles NE of Yellow Springs, on his Ohio Existing Railraod Depots website (fotos of anumber of PRR depots in SW Ohio are to be posted on the site shortly at: w3.gwis.com/~west/exist.htm). Okay, its time to stop talking and start acting. A whilke back Larry Morgan and I engaged in a thread about The Hill at Madison, Ind. As a result of that thread, Larry and I are planning to visit Madison, Ind., Tuesday Dec.30 to walk The Hill between M Subject: Re: Lines West activities? Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 19:45:03 -0500 Content-Length: 4016 Amen brother....... Lets quit complaining about lines east / lines west.....It's all PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD, isn't it? And who cares where the seat of power is anyway ? There are ATSF chapters on the east coast, why can't there be chapters of the PRRT&HS were ever you want to have one ? And if your feelings got hurt because you didn't get picked for a job that you wanted........well you must not have went about it the right way.......quit complaining and make a stand to improve the PRRT&HS. The best publication for a Historical Society around.........and you all agree.......So how can you add to that and make it better ? Don't try and tear down the best group that I've ever known.........So you want a convention in your area........GREAT>>>>GET ORGANIZED and have it.......I'll come. Just quit trying to derail a good thing. Bill Knepper ....for the real PRR fans, (ticked off) at the rest. ---------- > From: Robert A. Boyd > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Lines West activities? > Date: Friday, December 05, 1997 10:49 PM > > And Bob Weber writes: > > >Regarding the Philly-centric view of the society: > > > >Several of the societies/clubs I belong to are centralized in Colorado. > >Some of the most active members are in the New Jersey/Northeast area. What > >they did is to "create" their own "division" to have informal get-togethers > >to keep the fires stoked. > > > >Some other societies have similar chauvenistic views. > > > >I think if there are real foamers out there for the PRR in, say the Chicago > >area, that they should get together and have a mini-convention or a > >informal meeting at peoples houses. You are not going to get the "brass" > >in Philly to look at a Lines West convention or meeting until some > >organization is shown. > > ====== > > The more I dig into the PRR phenom (and I must admit I was a typical "GG-1 > SPF" when I joined the list) the more I am learning how much the Lines West > has to offer. > > I am concerned that any sort of "Lines West" interest should not cause a > split in the PRR community (a "Lines West SIG?") but if some sort of > western regional thing can be put together and work to support the common > cause, it would be a good thing. > > It would be essential that the "Lines West" make it plain that they are not > a separatist movement (and that charge will be made by the Grand Dragons of > the Old Guard), but within a loyalist context, there is no reason why all > these nice things can't be done. > > It may well be that, if "Lines West" can start doing some dynamic things > with web sites, regional meets and indexing the archives, it may goad the > "Lines East" into being more active. > > A thought: why not call it "The P Company"? > > Bob Boyd > Those Classic Trains > "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" > ____________________________________________ > > "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com > "The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service" > > ____ooo___ooo__oo_0000_o_o__________________ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: hazmats in the GG 1s Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 19:56:56 -0500 Content-Length: 3693 The real shame about the asbestos thing is that unless you make it freyable it is not any danger whatsoever. You must be able to breath it in to have it stick in your lung tissue. The public thinks that it has some sort of magic action like radioactive isotopes and is going to GET YOU if you stand too close to it. Removal is a sticky issue and one that has caused pains in preservation efforts I'm sure. The alternative of placing fiberglass wool insulation under the jacketing may one day backfire because the States and Feds want their two cents with that now too. The WM steam locomotive that has been preserved in steamable condition in Hagerstown MD was fitted this way and with aluminum jacketing. The aluminum will not rust, but I wonder about the interaction with other metals and chemicals. BTW, I new when I posted that note about the GG1's "hazmat" that they had PCB's in the transformers. I wanted to know what they did with it without causing people to overreact. Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ---------- > From: Robert A. Boyd > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: hazmats in the GG 1s > Date: Friday, December 05, 1997 7:52 PM > > >>I love the GG1's but the fly in the ointment is who would > >>want to deal with the hazmat of a 60 year old locomotive > >>and also who would want to supply 11,000 volt- 25 Hertz > >>electrical catenary? > > > >(Hazmat, I wonder what was in those GG1 transformers?) > > > >Harry W. Fitch > >hfitch@maranatha.net > > ===== > > I understand that the cooling oil in the main transformers had PCB in it: a > preservative that is believed to cause cancer. As I recall, when the GG > 1s were first retired, there was a big hassle over sending them to museums > because the EPA wanted the transmissions removed and stored - oil and all - > at a cost of some $5000 each. > > Evidently they solved that problem, seeing all the G motors that went to > museums in the last few years. However, I wonder if they have > transformers in them, or was the oil finally drained and legally disposed > of? > > Would anyone with access to a GG 1 know what the story is? > > BTW: one wonders, had these environmental regs been around in 1950, how > many old steamers would exist today with all that asbestos insulation? > Still, it is necessary: its just a shame that some provision can't seem to > be made for preserving contaminated antiques. > > > Bob Boyd > Those Classic Trains > "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" > ____________________________________________ > > "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com > "The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service" > > ____ooo___ooo__oo_0000_o_o__________________ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 22:08:50 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: PRRT&HS Convention (Was many things Content-Length: 1741 SUVCW ORR wrote: > The 1998 convention is litteraly across the tracks from the Lancaster > station. > You just need to climb the fence on each side including 5 stands of > barb wire. > Don't drive take the train. If I recall properly the hotel has van > service to > the station. Alternatively, bring your wife along and rent a car for > her. > There are special tours for spouses also all the Lancaster outlet > shops and > the Amish country is near by. If you bring the little ones, you are > only > about 1 1/4 hour drive from Hershey Park and Chocolate Town USA. You > get to > 1) ride the train, 2) talk trains, 3) take them on vacation at the > same time. > Only drawback is the timing. Kids would need to miss a few days of > school > depending on age. Why not repost your excellent message with dates and related items. The PRRTHS might even gain some new members. Personally, I have afraid I have overlooked such information or never received it. I have been looking for an excuse to go back to Strasburg, I mean Lancaster county Sadly. rail service from Indianapolis is down to almost nothing. The last I heard there was a weekly train to Chicago and nothing else. I will check. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 23:30:12 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: hazmats in the GG 1s Content-Length: 5383 Harry W. Fitch IV wrote: > BTW, I new when I posted that note about the GG1's "hazmat" that they had > PCB's > in the transformers. I wanted to know what they did with it without > causing people > to overreact. > Robert A. Boyd wrote: > > > > I understand that the cooling oil in the main transformers had PCB in it: > a > > preservative that is believed to cause cancer. As I recall, when the GG > > 1s were first retired, there was a big hassle over sending them to > museums > > because the EPA wanted the transmissions removed and stored - oil and all > - > > at a cost of some $5000 each. > > > > Evidently they solved that problem, seeing all the G motors that went to > > museums in the last few years. However, I wonder if they have > > transformers in them, or was the oil finally drained and legally disposed > > of? > > > > Would anyone with access to a GG 1 know what the story is? Please allow me to add the following concerning PCB liquids: A disclaimer first, I have not been directly involved with the refurbishing of PCB transformers for twelve years and am not familiar with any regulations more recent than 1985. Transformer liquids serve two purposes: cooling and electrical insulation. Transformer "oil," known generically as "10C Oil," is flammable and a true petroleum base oil. Because of the fire hazard, oil transformer locations are more restricted than for non-flammable liquids. PCB Transformer liquids, known generically as "askarels," include the trade names Pyranol (GE), and Inerteen (Westinghouse.) During the past 20 years silicone based non-flammable liquids have become available, as have various inert gas mixtures. Most power company transformers, including pole top utility transformers, are/were 10C filled. They were often found to be PCB contaminated; the general belief is that for safety during manufacturing testing they were filled with PCB liquid, then drained and refilled with 10C oil for their regular use. Unfortunately they retained their PCB contamination. Some twenty (?) years ago, transformers were required to be classed and labelled as "PCB transformers," PCB-contaminated transformers," or "Non-PCB transformers," depending on the percentage of PCB liquid present in the unit. It was possible and legal to drain a PCB transformer or a PCB-contaminated transformer, flush it with kerosene, as I remember, until it's residual PCB level was reduced to an approved percentage, refill it with 10C or one of the other fluids, and legally class it at a lower PCB level. This work was performed by licensed contractors. Bob Boyd's $5000 figure sounds about right. It is/was also possible to dispose of PCB transformers by draining them, incinerating the liquid, and burying the transformer and enclosure in an approved landfill. Most transformers were not permitted to be untanked for repairs; however, railroad locomotive transformers could be removed from their tanks when required. A feature of locomotive transformers not generally found in other applications was that their cooling systems had external plumbing for pumps and cooling coils. This, plus their moving, vibrating, flexing environment, made them much more prone to leakage than the usual one-piece, welded utility or industrial transformer. A locomotive might actually be found to have a general level of PCB contamination anywhere in the carbody, not just in the transformer. There were several concerns regarding refilling of any transformers, one being that over time residual PCB material might leach out from the transformer structure into the new liquid, raising the levels again to unacceptable values, and, second, that new government regulations might lower the aceptable limits and render previous work and expense useless. The hazard from PCB liquids is not so much carcinogenic as environmental unless the liquid is exposed to fire as in a transformer failure (it is not considered flammable but can be burned by the application of high enough temperatures. PCB smoke is generally considered to be highly carcinogenic. General consensus in 1985 was that people with long periods of exposure (skin contact) were not found to have any particular health problems from such contact). It is, however, a serious problem in the food chain, causing birth defects in animals, and, presumably, humans. For example, birds experience fragile egg shells that do not survive the incubation period. This may have been more than you wanted to know about penguins, to paraphrase an old joke, but might offer some background on the handling of transformers, although I am not able to give specific answers concerning the preservation of old G-motors. And as I said at the start, I am not familiar with any changes to PCB-handling rules which may have occurred during the past twelve years. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 00:13:23 EST Subject: Re: Questions?? Content-Length: 1157 In a message dated 97-12-06 22:00:23 EST, Jeremy C Helms writes: << I had a couple of questions I was wondering if anyone could answer. First I was wondering when the Pennsylvania Railroad changed their lettering on cars from the old way of spelling out Pennsylvania and went to the Circle Keystone emblem? >> According to Al Westerfield's instructions for his G22 gondola [and verified elsewhere], this change occurred in 1930. <> The first freight car lettering arrangement using the shadow keystone was dated April 4, 1954. Reporting marks were added in 1957. I'll leave the passenger questions to those more knowledgeable. John Keel ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 01:32:33 EST Subject: PRR T&HS and the internet Content-Length: 2413 Jerry I was at the Phila. Chapter meeting today and thought you might want to hear some of my observations. I've been a member of both the National and Phila. Region for about 17-18 years and from what I've seen the largest group of members here are in the 55-75 year range. Most of these people probably don't have or even use a computer let alone be interested in the internet. The PRR web page was mentioned at the meeting and a handout of all known PRR pages was available. Your's was listed along with others. I am 49 and am interested in information for my modeling. We have been trying for years to get some more modeling action in the chapter but have been rebuffed by the people in power for quite some time. The National is a "HISTORICAL SOCIETY" and we have been told that numerious times in spite of many requests from modelers for info. . A lot of us younger?? members are afraid that sooner or later the old guard will die off and with all the things available to kids today interest in a long gone railroad will be far from their minds and eventually the society will begin to fade away. A couple of us even gave the idea of a seperate PRR Modelers society but the loss of all the info the historical group has would be a tough issue. Evidentily the Santa Fe group had this problem years ago split up and then rejoined forces a couple of years ago as either group had trouble standing on it's own feet. I think you're page as it is fills an important position with people who are computer literate and have PRR interest. Maybe time will change the PRR historical groups feelings towards the computer age but time will also clear out all the old timers as well so all we can do is try to fill their shoes with new blood so all the info that has been collected over all these years can get to the people that need it. Sorry to be so long but the meeting today just got me thinking about this. Thanks for all your work it is appreciated. Ken McCorry ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 10:45:00 EST Subject: Re: PRRT&HS Convention (Was many things Content-Length: 617 The convention is the last weekend in April at the Days Inn, Lancaster, PA. I do not have the other details yet. As I did last year, I will post them to PRR-Talk when they arrive. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 12:15:08 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Lines West/modeling activities Content-Length: 4192 Hello all, Following this thread on Lines West and modeling, I can see that there is a lot of dissatisfaction out there in SPFdom, and I want to offer a few thoughts for whatever they are worth. * any hobby organization will have a small percentage who do all the work, who have always done all the work, and who will always be doing all the work. Part of why they are the Old Guard is that no one else wanted the job back in The Good Old Days. So if they get a little territorial, this is understandable, in view of the sweat equity they have in. * if the Old Guard is unresponsive to change, this is partly due to feeling that they paid their dues and don't want to hear from any Johnny-come-lately who has only been in the group 10 years or so; partly from the general cantankerousness of years (I am 48, and find myself rather disinclined to anything new as a knee jerk thing) and partly from a chronic low level burnout. * the one thing that all of us absolutely and unconditionally do NOT want is for any sort of organizational split between Lines East/West or Historical/Modeling. However, setting up any sort of subSIG within the PRR will inevitably be looked upon as secession unless you make it abundantly clear that you are sticking to the old homestead. Having said all that, I think the avenue is clearly marked out for a possible course of action. I think the need and interest is there for a Lines West and a Modeling activity as well as for a web presence. All of these things seem to be forming slowly, with the growing western interest and the web sites of Jerry, Mark and others. I recommend that any such be carefully distinguished as an "Activity": I suspect that even calling it a "Chapter" of the PRRHTS might evoke dark grumblings. A Lines West "Activity" group, a Modeling "Activity" group (east and west) and perhaps a PRR web ring would be workable and would attract new people. These activitys should be clearly labeled as part of the PRRHTS: if there is a western Chapter, you should support it; if not, a "region" might be in order. In any event, the "Lines East" home guard should be allowed to lead to whatever degree they can/will. Local initiative is not impossible, but any such initiative should be handled with great diplomacy. Perhaps we should go a year or two before trying to hold any sort of "Lines West" convention, and the early efforts there might be in the form of a series of chapter meets. As to a publication: this will be treading on toes big time! Admittedly, not all SPFs are on the web, but perhaps a jointly run web magizine (run as an E-mail download at first) could fill a gap. Chuck Blairdone is doing a magnificant job on the Keystone, but the man is mortal. When he goes, what happens to the Keystone and the PRRHTS? Does the home office do anything to speak of other than the Keystone that would draw new public interest? (the archives are a magnificant effort, but that is something of an inward thing) Getting a webzine up now will allow it to be built up and integrated into the PRRHTS before Chuck leaves the scene so that it can pick up the reigns at an appropriate future time. I might add that this is likely the way that SIG zines will go in the future. (My own "The Limited" might be considered a passenger "webzine") Any thoughts here Jerry? Mark? Anyway: that's my 3 cent stamp for today. Bob Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" ____________________________________________ "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com "The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service" ____ooo___ooo__oo_0000_o_o__________________ ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 7 Dec 97 13:33:18 EST From: Subject: PRR newspaper supplement Content-Length: 1619 Greetings everyone, For your information the local newspaper in Sunbury, PA put out a special edition to their newspaper on 25 November. Its a 32 page supplement entitled, "History in the making - -Trains". 75-80% of it deals with the PRR and it is almost all steam oriented (there are 1or 2 E-8s, an F-7 and a doodlebug or two). The other roads mentioned are Reading, Lackawanna and DL&W. There's about 70 photos and about 10 articles in the supplement and highlights Harrisburg, Wilkes-Barre, Lancaster, Northumberland and many other areas. There is also a story about an N-4 bobber cabin car that had been stored indoors in the Alleghany County warehouse for 46 years and is now being restored. It was built in 1892 and based upon the photo, looks to be in pristine condition before restoration. Also there's an article on an N-8 that is restored and currently in use on the Northumberland based, North Shore Railroad. Although it contains a lot of advertising it makes a nice, free, collectible. Try calling the paper at 717-286-5755 to try and get a copy if you're interested. Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, best to you and yours Kris Kollar ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR T&HS and the internet Date: Sun, 7 Dec 97 17:08:03 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1771 On 12/7/97 2:32 AM, KEMACPRR (KEMACPRR@aol.com) wrote: >Thanks for all your work it is appreciated. Thanks, and you're welcome. Don't push the "old timers" out the door too quick, though. In their heads they have all the information that we need to get into my site (and others) so that we have it recorded somewhere. My only enemy is time. As for modeling, Tom V. hit me with this same topic last week. I will be pushing to make my site more modeler friendly. When you go in through "Passenger Ops" and go to the rosters, each class lists available models. Same with diesels under "Motive Ops". The same will eventually be true (in years) for electrics, steam, freight, and non-revenue equipment. What I have done in the near term, however, is made more links to these from my "Modeling" page so that a modeler can cut to the chase. I've also entered some other new material in this area. Take a look (http://prr.dsop.com/model); let me know if I am headed in the right direction. My underlying reason for doing "Keystone Crossings" is as an extension of my modeling...and to make it accurate. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 16:30:32 EST Subject: Re: New Keystone Is Out Content-Length: 1323 In a message dated 97-12-06 09:17:13 EST, rswebber@concentric.net writes: >I think if there are real foamers out there for the PRR in, say the Chicago >area, that they should get together and have a mini-convention or a >informal meeting at peoples houses. Last time we had this thread, I asked a question which I'll repeat: When I first joined PRRT&HS (1985), there were chapters in Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Detroit, and Chicago. What happened to them? Why not try to join one (resurrecting it if necessary)? I realize that, unless you live in or near one of these cities, attendance at a chapter meeting could mean a full weekend away-from-home trip. But I would very much like to see active chapters, even if they have only a handful of members, on Lines West. The 800-member Philadelphia Chapter started out as a handful of guys meeting in somebody's house. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 17:34:01 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Not the future, but now Content-Length: 1738 Greetings, We live in an age where communications, at least for those who avail themselves, can participate in things which were not possible a few years ago. I lived in Pittsburgh Pa two different times and never heard of the PRRHTS. Why are they keeping their light under a basket? Maybe they prefer having only members who are local. I can appreciate that. All cannot attend and participate in the friendly warm personal meetings. However many of us are interested in the PRR. There is a world of information out there that all could make use of, if there was a means of communications. Well we have that means now and it is the internet!!! Those groups which refuse to assimilate themselves into the internet will find themselves in the same position as those who didn't buy TV's. E-mail is the wave of the now. Refusal to join only places one in the past. As much as I hate the word "compromise" maybe that's what we need. The continued publication of the PRRHTS is needed. A new method exists for those who can access the Net. Why not combine the best of both and get on with it. My 4 cents worth.............Off the soap box for now....... In case my computer dies or the ISP fails---Merry Christmas to All! Sincerely, S.A. McCALL hosam ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: Not the future, but now Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:52:41 -0500 Content-Length: 881 Television will never catch on! It's a fad. Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ---------- > From: s.a. mccall > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Not the future, but now > Date: Sunday, December 07, 1997 5:34 PM > > > Greetings, > > We live in an age where communications, at least for those who avail > themselves, can participate in things which were not possible a few years > ago. > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 19:28:17 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: New Keystone Is Out Content-Length: 1391 On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, PRRMAN wrote: > In a message dated 97-12-06 09:17:13 EST, rswebber@concentric.net writes: > > >I think if there are real foamers out there for the PRR in, say the Chicago > >area, that they should get together and have a mini-convention or a > >informal meeting at peoples houses. > > Last time we had this thread, I asked a question which I'll repeat: > When I first joined PRRT&HS (1985), there were chapters in > Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Detroit, and Chicago. What happened > to them? Why not try to join one (resurrecting it if necessary)? > I realize that, unless you live in or near one of these cities, attendance > at a chapter meeting could mean a full weekend away-from-home > trip. But I would very much like to see active chapters, even if > they have only a handful of members, on Lines West. Pittsburgh Chapter is still active, though I have not yet joined; I believe they meet monthly in Monroeville. -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 18:56:40 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: enduring faith Content-Length: 954 >Television will never catch on! It's a fad. > > > Harry W. Fitch >hfitch@maranatha.net ====== Yeah! Just like with these Ketterlings Trolleys. Coal is Eternal; we all can rest comfortably on that bedrock truth! Bob Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" ____________________________________________ "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com "The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service" ____ooo___ooo__oo_0000_o_o__________________ ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W.C. Knepper" Subject: Re: GG-1s,P.R.R.T&HS, PB&R Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:12:14 -0500 Content-Length: 2653 PB&R Recap....... The name is the " Patpsco & Back Rivers Railroad"...........copied right off of a hat that I got from them ! The railroad ran only on the Bethlem Steel plant property. There is a joint use yard, but it's on the Beth steel property. They are still running, all though not very big. ( just thought you would like to know) Bill Knepper ( boxcar46@nfdc.net) ---------- > From: bubbles@visi.net > To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com > Subject: GG-1s,P.R.R.T&HS, PB&R > Date: Saturday, December 06, 1997 4:55 PM > > > Hello folks... > > Hmmm...as for the GG-1....maybe someone or corporation could adapt a sort of > HEP car so the G could run...step down the voltage on a special car.? > > It would be nice if we had more local chapters for the P.R.R.t&hs...I belong > to the Northern Central chapter.Now most of the folks in it are in Pa. > But i live in southern Virginia...not really Pennsy country here... > well there is whats left of the old N.Y.P&N down here...the old > Pennsy orphan beach head in Norfolk ... > I am from Baltimore and grew up next to the N.C.(really!)my dad used to rent > the old freight station in Cockesville. > Anyway it would help us lone P. men(and ladies) if there were some local > group...I know there are P.R.R. modelers here some where. > > I saw Harry's (PB&R) Push,Bump&Ram thing...LOL > The Pennsy used to(and conrail still does)had/have a connection to a little > railroad called the Patapsco&Back River(s)(neck)(not sure about the > spelling)It ran toward the Beth steel plant in Dundalk Md..from off of a spur > near the Bayview yard in Baltimore.... > There is a Prototype for everything...! LOL > > H.Mummert > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:15:10 EST Subject: Re: Re Trains to Florida Content-Length: 742 In a message dated 97-12-07 15:22:43 EST, charlesr@infonline.net writes: > a >chance one GG-1 would be adapted to use modern 60 cps power. Does anyone >here know if that plan is still viable? This is the first I've heard of it. I cannot imagine Amtrak, in its present condition, paying for it. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: Re Trains to Florida Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 22:09:28 -0500 Content-Length: 1613 The Aem7 Swedish Meatball's were purchased I believe, as were the E60 GE's to be able to take the conversion in the catenary supply. Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 -----Original Message----- From: PRRMAN To: charlesr@infonline.net ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Sunday, December 07, 1997 9:31 PM Subject: Re: Re Trains to Florida >In a message dated 97-12-07 15:22:43 EST, charlesr@infonline.net writes: > >> a >>chance one GG-1 would be adapted to use modern 60 cps power. Does anyone >>here know if that plan is still viable? > >This is the first I've heard of it. I cannot imagine Amtrak, in its >present condition, paying for it. > >Rich Copeland > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out (fwd) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 22:28:06 -0500 Content-Length: 56956 So much PRR information; so little time! The national PRRT&HS officers, board members and "Keystone" editorial staff are to be commended for the job they are doing. Believe me, they are doing the best they can. Time is the enemy. It is very difficult to pursue pet projects while working. It is even more difficult after retiring. I am now a consultant and don't have time to read my E-mail. My hat is off to Jerry Britton, Mark Bej and others who are able to provide us with PRR information on the internet. Thank you! Keep up the good work! The following is MY opinion on the archives at Lewistown Station and is NOT the official position of the PRRT&HS. Some steps have been taken to make the information available. Owing to the large volume of material at the Lewistown Station, and its condition, it will be some time before members and the public are able to access anything in a reasonable manner. The material was not only dirty and bad smelling, it was disorganized. I know, because I had some of the drawings and maps from the Pittsburgh Union Station in my garage until we were able to find more suitable storage. We had to remove it from the station within a limited time frame because it was slated for destruction. Carl P. Izzo, President Pittsburgh Chapter, PRRT&HS ---------- > Farom: PRR-Talk > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: PRR-Talk Digest - 12/05/97 > Date: Friday, December 05, 1997 12:10 AM > > PRR-Talk Digest - Friday, December 5, 1997 > > Trainphone > by > RE: P54 cars on other roads > by Andrew S. Miller > RE: PRR power in Wash DC > by Harmantas, Andrew G. > Re: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out > by Donald E. Harper, Jr. > Re: Answers and Questions... > by SUVCW ORR > Re: Trainphone > by Jerry Britton > Trainphone > by George Pierson > Trainphone -Reply > by > RE: Trainphone (LONG!!!) > by Doug Drew > Re: PRR electrification at DC; Was Florida train power at Wash DC > by Robert Johnston > Re: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out (fwd) > by Mark D Bej > Re: Trainphone (fwd) > by Mark D Bej > Trainphone FAQ > by Jerry > Re: Trainphone > by Drew McGhee > Re: Trainphone -Reply > by Stephen Bartlett > RE: K-5, now P70's > by Bob Zoeller > RE: MP-54's Again > by Bob Zoeller > RE: New Freedom Station > by Bob Zoeller > Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 12/02/97 > by Rob Schoenberg > George Pierson's Tuscarora Valley RR > by Jerry > Re: Trainphone > by Chris Brandt > Re: more on the Florida trains > by Hal6963 > RE: New Freedom Station > by Bob Zoeller > Re: Trainphone > by Stephen Bartlett > Re: Re Trains to Florida > by PRRMAN > Re: PRR in Wash area > by PRRMAN > Re: New "Keystone" Is Out > by Larry P. Morgan > Attn: N-Scalers > by GLD 828 > Re: Trainphone (LONG!!!) > by KEMACPRR > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Trainphone > From: > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 97 7:28:13 EST > > Greetings everyone, > > I hope this subject hasn't been discussed recently since I don't like > boring all of you with redundant questions. > > Can anyone explain a little about the PRR's Trainphone (or Train Phone?) > communication system? Or suggest some good reference material? When did > the system come into use? I've seen some photos of tenders with what looks > like antennas on them. Was it used on both freight and passenger trains. > Speaking of passenger trains I've seen brass models of PRR and other > railroads with the antenna on passenger car roofs but I have never seen > photos of other railroad locomotives with the antenna's on them. Are the > models wrong or haven't I been looking hard enough at the other railroads. > Bottomline, were they unique to the PRR and if so why? Recently someone > mentioned that either train stations or interlocking towers were equipped > with the trainphone as well. What would a typical antenna look like on a > structure like this...the small round disks you see on some cabin cars or > the long tubular antenna found on locomotives. And where would it be > located..on the roof, on the exterior wall, on a pole??? Some photos show > the antennas going through the roof on some locomotives but on others they > seem to travel down along either the nose of the loco or down the rear of > the unit. Was there a standard or did the interior plumbing of the > locomotives require variations? In the cab what did the unit look like? A > regular telephone handset with a button to push to either talk or listen? > If noticed that the portion of the antenna that runs parallel to the loco > roof is a different diameter than the vertical segment, the part that goes > through the roof/nose. Why is that? Was the horizontal segment a hollow > tube with a smaller diameter wire running through it? > > Was the Trainphone used system wide or limited to certain regions? Was a > certain train assigned a specific frequency and could different trains > speak to each other? > > I hope I didn't ask to many questions. Any info you can provide would be > greatly appreciated. > > Kris Kollar > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: RE: P54 cars on other roads > From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 97 08:51:49 -0500 > > I was unaware of the Erie and SQH. The other raos I knew of was the Boston & > Maine. They bought quite a few for commuter service. > > regards > Andy Miller > > >To list members at PRR-TALK@dsop.com > > > >A while back, there was some discussion of P54 coaches > >on the list. My memory was that somebody mentioned > >that P54's were used by at least seven different railroads, > >but as far as I could tell, never did mention > >which seven roads these were. > > > >So, which seven roads were they? I will take a guess, > >but this is all it is: just a guess! > > > >(1) PRR (obvious) > >(2) LIRR (likely, since it was a subsidiary) > >(3) PRSL (same as above) > >(4) Erie (I have seen a photo of an ex-PRR PB54 w/Erie > > lettering, so a P54 isn't too much of a strech) > >(5) Susquehanna (same as Erie above) > > > >At this point, I give up! So if someone has the > >real answer, I for one would like to know... > > > >Till later... > > > > Claus Schlund (modeling steam-era PRR in N scale) > > San Francisco, CA > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- > >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > >------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: RE: PRR power in Wash DC > From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:09:06 -0500 > > > > > ---------- > > From: rboydrrs@inlink.com[SMTP:rboydrrs@inlink.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 1997 7:58 PM > > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > > Subject: PRR power in Wash DC > > > > > > The thing I find curious is that, if the tunnel clearances at DC were > > too > > tight for domes and highliners, how did they get electrics thru there? > > > > ________________________ > > They didn't. Overhead stopped at at Union Station, almost up to the > > mouth of the tunnel. Not through the tunnel. The overhead DID run > > through on the freight tracks (which bypassed much of the passenger > > train complex) along the Anacostia River, rejoining the southbound > > main near 2nd St And Virginia Ave, and then the double track with > > overhead went over the Long Bridge (that's the bridge's actual name) > > into Arlington, and on to Pot Yard. > > > > And now, for those who aren't exatly fascinated by the Pennsy in and > > around D.C., for those of us who were there, who rode the PRR and > > other roads into and out of D.C, who saw steam and diesel, and > > witnessed it all including the onset of Conrail, we think that the > > Washington area railroad scene was perhaps the most diverse, ecclectic > > (OK, and electric), colorful, streamline and limited dimintated, laid > > back, and memorable as any. Sure, it wasn't as Pennsy intensive as > > Philly, but there was still plenty enough to see. It's always such > > fun when a thread starts and some of us can rant with at least a small > > element of truth on our posts. And now, back to boxcars. > > > > Andrew h, kitbashing his own Pennsy E8's and E7's as we speak. To hell > > with the ready-to-run stuff. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out > From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:04:12 -0600 (CST) > > In message <16b68b47.34862a46@aol.com> BowerPRR writes: > > Regarding Mr. Vondruska's comments about the new winter issue of the PRRT&HS > > "Keystone" magazine. I hope that he and others on this forum truly learn to > > appreciate the efforts and production of this publication. The staff of this > > historic society along with those of the other regional PRRT&HS chapters are > > unpaid volunteers. They bring their professional and intellectual talents to > > bear to bring all of us who are members GREAT and accurate historic documents > > that are first rate reference materials. I don't think it is in anyone's best > > interest to snipe or throw stones about their efforts. > > > > Well said Brad. Having published a quarterly organizational newsletter - one > that never came close to the quality of the Keystone - for 10 years, I can > attest to the work that goes into such a publication. The Keystone staff is to > be highly commended for their efforts. > > Don Harper > Texas A&M Marine Lab > 5007 Avenue U > Galveston, TX 77551 > 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 > harperd@tamug.tamu.edu > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: Answers and Questions... > From: SUVCW ORR > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:04:16 EST > > In a message dated 97-12-04 09:16:25 EST, dfresh20@erols.com writes: > > << > I've got a copy of the Jan. 1953 NMRA reprint of the ORER. I don't find > any listing in it for Breyers as a private car owner, unlike Supplee. > >> > Unfortunately, this does not mean that Breyer's did not have cars lettered for > there products etc. As with tank cars, they may have leased GPEX milk cars > and placed their own name but not reporting marks on the car. The ORER is > only shows the owner of the reporting marks as the owner. Leasees are not > shown. > > However, without photographic evidence, I would not create such a car. > > George, you might want to contact Breyer's for information and any photos > which they may have in their corporate archives. Other companies have been > willing to share such onformation and give permission to print the photos. > > Rich Orr > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: Trainphone > From: "Jerry Britton" > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 97 10:26:15 -0400 > > On 12/4/97 8:28 AM, kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL (kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL) > wrote: > > >Can anyone explain a little about the PRR's Trainphone (or Train Phone?) > >communication system? > > If someone wants to do a nice write-up on this, I'll post it as a FAQ at > "Keystone Crossings". > > --------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > Progressive Information Technologies > britton@pit-magnus.com > http://www.pit-magnus.com > 1 JPEG = 1K words > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Trainphone > From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 97 08:49:37 CST > > Hi, everyone, > > RE the question on the trainphone, sometime in this past year (I've got it > at home) TRAINS magazine did an article on early radio communication on the > railroads which included a very nice section on the PRR's trainphone. In > general, it appears from what I can remember that the trainphone was mostly > used on the busier mainline segments of the PRR. For example, in the recent > color book on the line to Sodus Point you see almost no trainphone > equipment. Trainphone allowed loco to caboose communication or either one > to towers. Its range was limited because it was not true radio. Even > within its range the transmission quality was not always good. By the > early 1960s it was being phased out - I seem to recall that some GP 30's > were delivered with trainphone. There's also an entertaining treatment of > trainphone in that PRR b&w promo film from the 1940s which is widely > available in video. > > PRR Forever! > > Sincerely, > > George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu > Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Trainphone -Reply > From: bill.laird@coastalcorp.com > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:04:19 -0600 > > Kris, > > While not an expert in the RR Trainphone system, I have always been > interested in it=2E I will try to answer some of your questions=2E > > >>> "kkollar@PAMDT=2EANG=2EAF=2EMIL" 12/4/97, 08:17am wrote>>> > >Greetings everyone, > > >I hope this subject hasn't been discussed recently since > >I don't like boring all of you with redundant questions=2E > > It has, but I don't believe anyone minds a rehash for the sake of > knowledge transfer=2E > > >Can anyone explain a little about the PRR's Trainphone > >(or Train Phone?) communication system? > > The PRR Trainphone system was a low frequency, inductance > communications system=2E Voice communications were transmitted via > inductance by the long horizontal antennas on locomotives and cabin > cars and received by antennas within a few yards of the track=2E Range > was very limited=2E Not really a radio system, it was based on the > electrical principal of inductance, that is the ability of an > electrical conductor to pick up the current from another conductor > close by=2E > > >Or suggest some good reference material? When did the system > >come into use? I've seen some photos of tenders with what=20 > >looks like antennas on them=2E Was it used on both freight and > >passenger trains=2E > > I am currently on a business trip to London and do not have access to > my "library" so can't give a specific reference, but one of the RR > magazines had an article in the last several months on early railroad > communications systems=2E It covered the PRR Trainphone is some detail > with some photographs=2E If you are unable to track it down, I would > be glad to mail or FAX it to you upon my return home (mid Dec)=2E > > >Speaking of passenger trains I've seen brass models of PRR=20 > >and other railroads with the antenna on passenger car roofs > >but I have never seen photos of other railroad locomotives=20 > >with the antenna's on them=2E Are the models wrong or haven't > >I been looking hard enough at the other railroads=2E =20 > >Bottomline, were they unique to the PRR and if so why? > > Some passenger cars (PRR and other RR's) had long horizontal antennas > mounted on the roof for reception of standard AM radio broadcasts=2E=20 > Radio sets for "entertainment" were installed in some observation and > lounge cars=2E However, the PRR was not the only RR to experiment with > early communications systems, I believe UP was another=2E > > >Recently someone mentioned that either train stations or > >interlocking towers were equipped with the trainphone as well=2E > >What would a typical antenna look like on a structure like > >this=2E=2E=2Ethe small round disks you see on some cabin cars or > >the long tubular antenna found on locomotives=2E And where=20 > >would it be located=2E=2Eon the roof, on the exterior wall,=20 > >on a pole??? =20 > > I don't know much about the trackside antennas, except that any > facility that wanted to use the Trainphone (stations, towers, etc=2E) > had to have an antenna=2E > > >Some photos show the antennas going through the roof on some > >locomotives but on others they seem to travel down along either > >the nose of the loco or down the rear of the unit=2E Was there a > >standard or did the interior plumbing of the locomotives require > >variations? In the cab what did the unit look like? A regular > >telephone handset with a button to push to either talk or listen? > >If noticed that the portion of the antenna that runs parallel > >to the loco roof is a different diameter than the vertical=20 > >segment, the part that goes through the roof/nose=2E Why is that? > >Was the horizontal segment a hollow tube with a smaller=20 > >diameter wire running through it? > > Only thing I can help you with here is that the smaller diameter > segment of the antenna was the feedwire which carried the signals to > and from the horizontal radiating element of the antenna=2E > > >Was the Trainphone used system wide or limited to certain regions? =20 > > I believe it was more common in Lines East territory=2E > > >Was a certain train assigned a specific frequency and=20 > >could different trains speak to each other? > > There was only one "frequency" or channel, it was a party line > affair=2E Different trains could communicate with one another if they > were within the limited system range of one another (for example > while passing one another)=2E =20 > > >I hope I didn't ask to many questions=2E Any info you can provide > >would be greatly appreciated=2E > > >Kris Kollar > > Never too many questions, just not enough answers=2E > > Bill Laird > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: RE: Trainphone (LONG!!!) > From: Doug Drew > Date: 04 Dec 97 11:09:16 -0500 > > --====48545051495456505353===1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" > > OK, here's my understanding of how PRR's trainphone system came about, > and worked: > > Trainphone was adopted by PRR as a result of the railroad industry in > general losing the rights to 'service' radio bandwidth frequencies early in > the century, due to apparent lack of interest, or the inability to find > tube equipment durable enough to survive any length of time in on a jolting > steam locomotive. Due to Pennsy's huge traffic, it found itself with the > need for voice communication between trains and block stations, and between > trains themselves. Train orders, telegraphy and the like weren't cutting > it on PRR, yet it couldn't use radio for communication with trains. > > Trainphone used the track and/or lineside telegraph wires to convey voice > messages between loco and cabin car, between trains, or between trains > and block stations. It accomplished this by inducing a varying current into > rail or wires via an energized coil -- something akin to a radio signal -- > essentially turning rail or telegraph wire into a broadcasting antenna. > The message broadcast could then be picked up by antenna-equipped trains or > block stations -- the pickup antennae on moving equipment were the large > 'handrail' structures on the tenders of steam locomotives, atop diesel > locomotives, and virtually surrounding the longitude of a cabin car. > > Application of trainphone antennae had to vary, of course, with the > application. Pennsy Power 1 showed some of the original oddball trial > applications -- including atop the boilers of steam locomotives. I really don't > know why diameters of the receiving antennae might have varied -- I assume > regular pipe stock was used for receivers, and the smaller diameter "pipes" > may have been solid rods. > > The current-inducers were small semicircular devices -- usually in pairs > -- mounted on the underframes of the tender, diesel or cabin car. I'm not > sure what block stations used for inducers or receiving antenna, or if > they simply had their Inductive Train Telephone equipment (the formal name > for it) connected to lineside wires or to the rail itself, as the antennae > would have only been needed for moving equipment. > > The 'user-interface' was a typical telephone handset, hung on a box-like > instrument next to the engineer's seat on locomotives -- I assume it would > be above the conductor's desk in a cabin car. There was a speaker to get > the user's attention (i.e. "MG tower to engineer LCL-1") and the handset > was used to allow easier hearing and speaking on a noisy locomotive. > > I believe there were two "channels" or frequencies used, one for > engine-to-cabin (or vice versa) communication, and one for train-to- train or > train-to-block cabin communications. > > Trainphone was originally used on PRR's busiest lines, such as the > Pittsburgh division, as enhancing the ability to move trains in dense traffic > was its reason for being. I assume it probably was eventually used > system-wide, but I don't know for sure. > > Does anyone know if it was used in the electrified zone, and if so, how > did electric engines pick up the signal? > > I also don't know how on-train telephones used in some passenger trains > fit into this system, or if they used another system altogether. The > antennae seen on the roofs of some passenger cars would be for the on-train > telephone. > > Trainphone equipment is one of the things that made Pennsy equipment > distinctive, and is indicative of how the railroad coped with the huge traffic > it carried. > > Looking forward to any corrections to the above. > > -- Doug Drew > > kkollar wrote: > >Greetings everyone, > > > >I hope this subject hasn't been discussed recently since I don't like > >boring all of you with redundant questions. > > > >Can anyone explain a little about the PRR's Trainphone (or Train Phone?) > > >communication system? Or suggest some good reference material? When > did > >the system come into use? I've seen some photos of tenders with what > looks > >like antennas on them. Was it used on both freight and passenger > trains. > >Speaking of passenger trains I've seen brass models of PRR and other > >railroads with the antenna on passenger car roofs but I have never seen > >photos of other railroad locomotives with the antenna's on them. Are > the > >models wrong or haven't I been looking hard enough at the other > railroads. > >Bottomline, were they unique to the PRR and if so why? Recently someone > > >mentioned that either train stations or interlocking towers were > equipped > >with the trainphone as well. What would a typical antenna look like on > a > >structure like this...the small round disks you see on some cabin cars > or > >the long tubular antenna found on locomotives. And where would it be > >located..on the roof, on the exterior wall, on a pole??? Some photos > show > >the antennas going through the roof on some locomotives but on others > they > >seem to travel down along either the nose of the loco or down the rear > of > >the unit. Was there a standard or did the interior plumbing of the > >locomotives require variations? In the cab what did the unit look like? > A > >regular telephone handset with a button to push to either talk or > listen? > >If noticed that the portion of the antenna that runs parallel to the > loco > >roof is a different diameter than the vertical segment, the part that > goes > >through the roof/nose. Why is that? Was the horizontal segment a > hollow > >tube with a smaller diameter wire running through it? > > > >Was the Trainphone used system wide or limited to certain regions? Was > a > >certain train assigned a specific frequency and could different trains > >speak to each other? > > > >I hope I didn't ask to many questions. Any info you can provide would > be > >greatly appreciated. > > > >Kris Kollar > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- > >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > > >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > >------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > --====48545051495456505353===1 > Subject: Re: PRR electrification at DC; Was Florida train power at Wash > From: Robert Johnston > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:22:00 -0500 > Subject: Re: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out (fwd) > From: Mark D Bej > Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 12:50:38 EST > Subject: Re: Trainphone (fwd) > From: Mark D Bej > Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 12:57:45 EST > Subject: Trainphone FAQ > From: Jerry > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 97 13:15:29 -0400 > Subject: Re: Trainphone > From: Drew McGhee > Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 13:39:21 -0500 > Subject: Re: Trainphone -Reply > From: Stephen Bartlett > Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 13:40:36 -0500 > Subject: RE: K-5, now P70's > From: "Bob Zoeller" > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:57:47 -0600 > Subject: RE: MP-54's Again > From: "Bob Zoeller" > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:04:42 -0600 > Subject: RE: New Freedom Station > From: "Bob Zoeller" > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:18:19 -0600 > From: Jerry Britton > Subject: New Freedom Station > Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 12/02/97 > From: Rob Schoenberg > Date: Thu, 04 Dec 97 16:02:01 -0500 > Subject: George Pierson's Tuscarora Valley RR > From: Jerry > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 97 16:04:54 -0400 > Subject: Re: Trainphone > From: Chris Brandt > Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 17:20:44 -0500 > Subject: Re: more on the Florida trains > From: Hal6963 > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 18:40:24 EST > Subject: RE: New Freedom Station > From: "Bob Zoeller" > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 16:37:12 -0600 > Subject: Re: Trainphone > From: Stephen Bartlett > Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 16:59:52 -0500 > Subject: Re: Re Trains to Florida > From: PRRMAN > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 21:03:16 EST > Subject: Re: PRR in Wash area > From: PRRMAN > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 21:03:17 EST > Subject: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out > From: "Larry P. Morgan" > Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 23:09:42 -0500 > Subject: Attn: N-Scalers > From: GLD 828 > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 23:03:35 EST > Subject: Re: Trainphone (LONG!!!) > From: KEMACPRR > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 23:31:26 EST Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 06:36:21 +0000 Subject: Re: FOR SALE: Pennsy items for sale(LONG) From: locoshop@juno.com (Jeremy C Helms) Content-Length: 764 Hello again, Just to let everyone know, the items that were listed were all HO scale and there was $5 for shipping and handling. Also some items were sold (and asked for many times over) of the following: both SW9s, NW2, and 2 of the F3As. Thanks again and sorry for not providing this information in the first post. Jeremy Helms ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 08 Dec 97 09:17:51 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: hazmats in the GG 1s Content-Length: 12331 --====49545257494854515349===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" I don't know exactly what was done for the GG-1's, but I suspect the PCB-containing transformer cooling fluid had to be drained and replaced with something considered less carcinogenic by the EPA, or drained and NOT replaced. I understand that the Paoli MU maintenance shop was declared a 'Superfund' site, due to the contamination of the ground from so much PCB-containing transformer fluid dumped/leaked from the MU cars. General Electric up this way (Pittsfield Mass. transformer plant) gave away PCB-contaminated dirt to local homeowners to use as fill, in the 40's and 50's, that they are now having to reclaim from peoples' yards, beneath house additions, etc. at company expense. Harry W. Fitch IV wrote: >The real shame about the asbestos thing is that unless >you make it freyable it is not any danger whatsoever. > >You must be able to breath it in to have it stick in your >lung tissue. The public thinks that it has some sort of magic >action like radioactive isotopes and is going to GET YOU if >you stand too close to it. Removal is a sticky issue and one that >has caused pains in preservation efforts I'm sure. The alternative >of placing fiberglass wool insulation under the jacketing may one day >backfire because the States and Feds want their two cents with that now >too. > >The WM steam locomotive that has been preserved in steamable condition >in Hagerstown MD was fitted this way and with aluminum jacketing. The >aluminum >will not rust, but I wonder about the interaction with other metals and >chemicals. > >BTW, I new when I posted that note about the GG1's "hazmat" that they had >PCB's >in the transformers. I wanted to know what they did with it without >causing people >to overreact. > > > >Harry W. Fitch >hfitch@maranatha.net > Acts 4:12 > > >---------- >> From: Robert A. Boyd >> To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >> Subject: hazmats in the GG 1s >> Date: Friday, December 05, 1997 7:52 PM >> >> >>I love the GG1's but the fly in the ointment is who would >> >>want to deal with the hazmat of a 60 year old locomotive >> >>and also who would want to supply 11,000 volt- 25 Hertz >> >>electrical catenary? >> > >> >(Hazmat, I wonder what was in those GG1 transformers?) >> > >> >Harry W. Fitch >> >hfitch@maranatha.net >> >> ===== >> >> I understand that the cooling oil in the main transformers had PCB in it: >a >> preservative that is believed to cause cancer. As I recall, when the GG >> 1s were first retired, there was a big hassle over sending them to >museums >> because the EPA wanted the transmissions removed and stored - oil and all >- >> at a cost of some $5000 each. >> >> Evidently they solved that problem, seeing all the G motors that went to >> museums in the last few years. However, I wonder if they have >> transformers in them, or was the oil finally drained and legally disposed >> of? >> >> Would anyone with access to a GG 1 know what the story is? >> >> BTW: one wonders, had these environmental regs been around in 1950, how >> many old steamers would exist today with all that asbestos insulation? >> Still, it is necessary: its just a shame that some provision can't seem >to >> be made for preserving contaminated antiques. >> >> >> Bob Boyd >> Those Classic Trains >> "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" >> ____________________________________________ >> >> "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com >> "The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service" >> >> ____ooo___ooo__oo_0000_o_o__________________ >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------- >> Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >> cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >> ------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====49545257494854515349===1 From: Robert A. Boyd < Content-Length: 1545 Hi Guys, A while ago someone asked about one of the PRR C245's that is still around. This month's "The Railroad Press" had an article "Big Alcos of the Northeast" and included a listing of Alco centuries still around. Here's the PRR entries! -Rob Existing PRR Alco Centuries - Compiled by "The Railroad Press" Magazine, annotations by Paul Tupaczewski Model Original # To Notes C424 PRR 2415 PC 2415 - CR 2474 - GBW 319 - Sold to industrial user C425 PRR 2423 PC 2423 - CR 2423 - NYLE 6101 1 C425 PRR 2431 PC 2431 - CR 2431 - NYLE Parts Unit C425 PRR 2439 PC 2439 - CR 5073 - D&M 381 - Lake States 381 2 C425 PRR 2442 PC 2442 - CR 5076 - D&M 181 - Lake States 181 2 C425 PRR 2443 PC 2443 - CR 5077 - D&M 1280 - Lake States 1280 2 C425 PRR 2444 PC 2444 - CR 5078 - D&M 281 - Lake States 281 2 C636 PC 6342 CR 6792 - Delta Bulk Terminals 1001 3 Notes 1. Rebuild by Morrison-Knudson. Painted in MK yellow/black scheme. 2. Rebuilt by General Electric 1980/1981. Units numbered for date of rebuild (i.e. 381 was rebuilt in March 1981) 3. Ordered by PRR, but delivered after merger. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Re Trains to Florida Date: Mon, 08 Dec 97 10:43:49 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1308 Few thoughts, The NEC is still 11 (or 12 i forget) kV 25 Hz. New Jersey Transit equiptment for their "Northeast Direct" service (NJ transit lines to NY Penn Station) has to be able to switch over more or less on the fly from the 25K 60 hertz power transit uses to the 11K still used on the corridor. I've heard (but can't confirm or deny) that the 4800 is the only G with its transformers intact. (possibly why they keep it outdoors??) Rest of them had the transformers removed due to the PCB contamination. Of course all it would take is money to reequip the G's with new electrical gear! Rob >> a >>chance one GG-1 would be adapted to use modern 60 cps power. Does anyone >>here know if that plan is still viable? > >This is the first I've heard of it. I cannot imagine Amtrak, in its >present condition, paying for it. > >Rich Copeland > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: PB54's on the NYSW... Date: Mon, 08 Dec 97 10:55:23 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1259 Hi, A week or so ago there was a thread about MP54/P54's on other railroads. I asked a friend who's into the NYS&W about the ones they had and here's what he has to say: Rob --------------- NYS&W had three PB54's - 852, 854 and 855 (those are the NYS&W numbers, not sure if they're the same as the PRR numbers)... one of these cars (not sure which number) in later years had its passenger section removed, and the windows blanked out, and then another identical baggage door added. Me and Bob Mohowski talked for hours on what this car was, and after close investigation of the photo (a really good clear photo of the car is in "Rails Around Gotham" - if you look close, you can see where the windows were plated over). I didn't think the PRR/LIRR had any "B54's!" Don't know if the Erie had similar cars... - P ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: SALE: "Keystone Crossings" CD Date: Mon, 8 Dec 97 13:27:13 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1195 Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings" is currently in production/replication and all current orders will be shipped by the end of the week. There is still time to place orders for delivery prior to Christmas. The CD is cross-platform and contains numerous Acrobat PDF versions of many PRR documents, including a CT1000E, track charts, book of rules, freight schedule, etc. The cost is $30, inclusive of shipping. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/cd.html for details. Proceeds help offset the costs of running "Keystone Crossings" and "PRR-Talk". Thanks. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: New Keystone is out Date: Mon, 8 Dec 97 13:59:55 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 2090 On 12/8/97 2:01 PM, Bob Zoeller (bob@amsignal.com) wrote: >Sorry for rambling, but not having attended the annual meeting, is there a >lot of Lines West material there? Tom V. has been on this soap box numerous times (perhaps rightfully so). However, it was pointed out that there has been more "Lines West" stuff in past issues of "The Keystone" than even he was aware of at the time. Remember, "The Keystone" is a product of its contributors. It's not that they won't print a "Lines West" article...nobody writes them!!! Seeing as how I was only six when the Pennsy bought the farm, and have always lived in the Harrisburg, Pa., area, I don't have a lot of "Lines West" material to contribute. However, I will reaffirm my standing offer: Anyone willing to author "Lines West" material may post it as part of "Keystone Crossings". Tom V. has done so already via histories of many of the "Lines West" branches and he promises more (see "Hobo's Guide..."). I'll also post any photos, track charts, timetables, and other documents pertaining to "Lines West" than anyone cars to keyboard or scan into an electronic format that I can use. I've got more than adequate drive space. Bandwidth will increase in 1998, so access will become easier. And, unlike the PRRT&HS, I don't charge an annual membership fee!!! So, let "Keystone Crossings" be your soap box. The excuse is gone. Here is a free forum. All you need do is provide the content! --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: New Keystone is out Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:01:10 -0600 Content-Length: 1894 Larry Morgan wrote: "Many of us would like to have the opportuninity to attend such meetings. When they hold one close enough for me to drive, I will certainly try. The furthest east would be Columbus Ohio" I regret all the meetings being held back East, but other conflicts, not distance, have prevented me from attending. My bigger regret is the small amount of Lines West content (I am interested in Chicago and Fort Wayne divisions) in the society and the Keystone in general. I am also not slamming anyone- the heart of the Pennsy was back East, but I am really puzzled at the lack of western material available. OTOH, I have nothing to contribute since I was too busy in school, work, etc., to railfan in those days. For Chicago, I use to think it was the neighborhoods Pennsy traveled through - I certainly would have been reluctant to take an expensive camera in many of them. My family moved from the Englewood area in 1948. But that doesn't explain why no Colehour to Fort Wayne photos. And besides, 20 years ago, in a Milwaukee hobby shop I saw about 400 sharp color prints from Nikon slides of passenger equipment out of Union Station taken in the 60's. When I went back to the owner to get the photographers name to contact him, the hobby shop had closed permanently. So they may exist in someone's attic. Sorry for rambling, but not having attended the annual meeting, is there a lot of Lines West material there? Bob Zoeller Fox Point, WI ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: Re Trains to Florida Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:06:43 -0600 Content-Length: 1174 Since my life career was influenced by Raymond Loewy, I love the GG1 and the T1, but as to reviving G's for operation, does anyone else get the same feeling I do in the cab of the G? I am not waistline-impaired, but I need a shoehorn to get in, and claustrophobia sets in once inside. Also, I have never seen this mentioned, but the camelbacks were supposedly phased out due to separation of engineer and fireman, but the only G cab I have been in, at Altoona, has the same problem. Continuing a previous thought on old RR mag myths, in my "library" reading of 47-51 Trains, I came across a description of the GG1 cab as roomy. Is there some other GG1 I don't know about? Regards, Bob (Wishing the G's made it to Lines West) Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Re Trains to Florida Date: Mon, 08 Dec 97 15:36:21 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1563 I'm pretty sure that all of the GG1 cabs were the same-pretty darn cramped! I know I've been inside at least one other and it was also definitely not "roomy!" The separation of the fireman and engineer sure isn't the optimal arrangement but the camelbacks were outlawed due occurances of thrown rods punching up through the floor of the cab! Rob Since my life career was influenced by Raymond Loewy, I love the GG1 and = the T1, but as to reviving G's for operation, does anyone else get the = same feeling I do in the cab of the G? I am not waistline-impaired, but = I need a shoehorn to get in, and claustrophobia sets in once inside. =20 Also, I have never seen this mentioned, but the camelbacks were = supposedly phased out due to separation of engineer and fireman, but the = only G cab I have been in, at Altoona, has the same problem. =20 Continuing a previous thought on old RR mag myths, in my "library" = reading of 47-51 Trains, I came across a description of the GG1 cab as = roomy. Is there some other GG1 I don't know about? Regards, Bob (Wishing the G's made it to Lines West) Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 08 Dec 97 16:18:56 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: Railroad Simulations/Games (long, as usual) Content-Length: 10021 --====55495551525652545653===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" I tried an early version of "Train Dispatcher" that was programmed for the Commodore 64. The part that bothered me most about it was it ran too fast -- it couldn't be slowed down to run closer to 'real time', even at the lowest 'level'. Because of the speed, it was a challenging game, but just a game -- not a simulation. In the C-64 version, it was pretty simple and not terribly realistic. One program I can recommend, but one I'm not sure is even being made anymore, is "Sid Meier's Railroad Tycoon" by MicroProse. It focuses more on the railroad as a social entity, and it's relationship to the industrialization of the country, rather than being strictly a "dispatching" type of game. One can start out in the Eastern US, Western US, England, or Western Europe back in the infancy of railroads, and it's up to you to find your initial traffic base, build on that, and expand your railroad via branch lines to new industrial sources; main lines to new cities; 'rate wars' with other railroads serving the same cities; upgrading your line with tunnels, viaducts, new motive power and trains; etc. You can even build industries such as steel mills, to feed your railroad even more traffic, if you have enough money (no ICC in this game!). Motive power and traffic sources change as time goes on. You are responsible for planning train routings, and pickups and setoffs at key industrial sites. Trains make money or not, depending how well you devise your routings and schedules. The income of your railroad as a whole is tracked, which allows you (or not) to buy new equipment, upgrade your lines, buy other railroad's stock, retire your own debt. You can play in "cutthroat" mode, where the computer plays against you and can actually have you deposed from your own railroad, via stock purchases. You 'win' based on how your railroad's bottom line compares to the railroads of three other "tycoons" that the computer controls (names like James J. Hill and Cornelius Vanderbilt). Games can be saved and continued at a later time. If I botch a strategy, I often go back to an earlier 'save' and try to rewrite history. It's a game of great challenge and depth (actually, the best thought-through computer game I've ever seen), which probably explains why it's out of production. It takes something more than a quick trigger finger to play. I wouldn't recommend playing it on a laptop, though. Once your railroad gets fairly large, a good-sized monitor is required to keep track of all the activity, plus there are a lot of palettes and 'news screens' floating around. For my money, this type of simulation beats a "model railroad simulator" such as It has really made me appreciate the intelligence and skill of giants such as J. Edgar Thomson. bill.laird wrote: >I travel extensively and always carry my laptop. I often spend those >wasted hours in an airport lobby, onboard an aircraft, or in a hotel >room playing computer solitare. I think a good railroad simulation >or realistic game would be a lot more entertaining way of passing the >time. > >I am looking for honest evaluations of railroad simulations and games >currently on the market. I know of two, but have never seen them. >The first is a simulation of the NE corridor ("Train Dispatcher, I >think) and the second is "Train Engineer" which is supposed to have >cab view graphics. > >I would appreciate anyone with experience with either of these >packages, or any others, to post an evaluation. I don't mind paying >for a good package that will be enjoyable to run, but I don't want to >spend a lot trying several packages which turn out to be >oversimplistic games. > >Thanks, > >Bill Laird > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====55495551525652545653===1 Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:08:15 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: MP-54 Content-Length: 1748 Hello folks... This is for the guy asking about the MP-54 s used on other railroads. In the late seventies commuter service between Baltimore and Washington was upgraded on the former PRR line...cars that had been in service on this line were former PRR MP-54 class cars. When the newer cars (were either silverliners or Jersey arrows...not sure)came to Maryland the old MP-54 cars were stored for a time at the mail storage tracks under the post office next to Penn station in Baltimore.(tracks now gone) The Washington Terminal Company (Washington union station)formerly co-owed by PRR-B&O bought one or two of the old cars and painted it in company colors(blue with white trim).(remember the old 40 series RS-1 s they had?) Anyway i believe the car kept its old number(a 500 series number comes to mind) and i think it was used as a shuttle between Ivy City engine house and Union station.I know there was one car for sure..there might have been two. I don't know if they still have the car...they might have gotten rid of it. This car was a coach. H.Mummert PS...somewhere in my old Trains magazines is a article about some railroad out west that bought some second hand...will post the info when i find it. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 18:23:44 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Railroad Simulations/Games Content-Length: 2456 bill.laird@coastalcorp.com wrote: > > I am looking for honest evaluations of railroad simulations and games > currently on the market. I know of two, but have never seen them. > The first is a simulation of the NE corridor ("Train Dispatcher, I > think) and the second is "Train Engineer" which is supposed to have > cab view graphics. > Bill, A couple of good demos are available on-line: 1. Trainmaster Locomotive Simulator, from Corporate Strategies, Inc. http:www.rails.com The screen view is a set of very realistically performing controls on the lower half, and a profile view with several signal choices on the top. Sound is included if you have a sound card. I don't know how it would do on an LCD screen, but the demo gives you the chance to check it out. File size is around 800 kb to download. 2. Train Dispatcher, by Signal Computer Consultants - demo from http://www.usaor.net/signal This one has a LOT of territory to control. 3. An interesting freeware program simulating two New York Subway interlockings is available from the author, Bernard S. Greenberg, at http://www.basistech.com/bsg/nxsys.htm He has some fascinating front views that can move you through the interlockings. Moderate detail, but well worth a look. 4. If you are interested in subways, check out the JoeKorNer subway page at http://home.earthlink.net/~joekor/indexnew.htm Frank Bryan, Bryan Consulting Services, last seen in Missouri (he moves around) has several DOS based simulations, NE Corridor, CTC Dispatcher, a Metra (Chicago) CTC simulator, a Track Warrant simulator, and a locomotive simulator. These use ASCII symbols to generate the screen display. On the CTC, TWC, and loco simulator you can set up your own route files with a little planning. The route files are not compiled. If you are interested I will try to find his address. Abracadata's Train Engineer seemed a little juvenile to me. A demo is/was available from them at http:www.abracadata.com Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 18:46:38 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Subject: Re: Railroad Simulations/Games Content-Length: 1509 At 09:20 AM 12/8/97 -0600, bill.laird@coastalcorp.com wrote: >I travel extensively and always carry my laptop. I often spend those >wasted hours in an airport lobby, onboard an aircraft, or in a hotel >room playing computer solitare. I think a good railroad simulation >or realistic game would be a lot more entertaining way of passing the >time. > >I am looking for honest evaluations of railroad simulations and games >currently on the market. [...] I have had hours of enjoyment playing simulation games from an outfit in England called SIAM games; they have a web page (below) that has their entire catalog and a few free sample games (cut down or simplified versions, but with the same track layout). I liked playing one of them (Railfreight Cornish China Clay) so much that I have based my home layout on its trackplan and operations (modified from clay to ore, and moved from Cornwall to the USA). These people really try to simulate the operations of a railroad or a segment thereof, and it shows. http://www.siam.co.uk/siam/siam.htm Good luck! Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:19:02 -0600 (CST) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: Videotape Content-Length: 857 I just received a postcard from BCB Productions in Downingtown, PA, touting their Pennyslvania Railroad Steam & Electric Years 1955-1964, Volume II. Volume I coveres the period 1936-1952. Would anyone who has purchased one of their tapes care to comment on the content and quality? Thanks Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 19:32:39 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: New Keystone is out Content-Length: 2207 Bob Zoeller wrote: Snio > Sorry for rambling, but not having attended the annual meeting, is > there a lot of Lines West material there? > > Bob Zoeller > Fox Point, WI I have not found a lot to this point, but I certainly have not exhausted all available sources. I grew up near Gary, and remember PRR trains to Chicago and the Gary US Steel. At present I am interested in PRR Fort Wayne to Gary & Chicago, PRR through Indianapolis to St. Louis, and PRR Indianapolis south to Madison and Louisville where my wife grew up. If anyone has WEB locations with relevant information, please sahre thme. Like many others, I use the PRR as a theme for modeling. I actually have a Pennsylvania room which focuses on Pennsylvania mountains and the PRR circa 1939. The 1955 Indiana room will open in 1998 or 1999. We will open a "tunnel" through both space (Ohio) and time (the 1940's) to connect them. The tunnel actually will go through a closet. I may be unique to the group in the I do O gauge "hi rail" and have a lot of Lionel operating pieces. I also have no other tie to the PRR. My wife has her own N gauge 1940's layout. We do things for our own fun. In some cases, Tom V., myself, and my wife plan to do our own field research -- starting at the Madison Hill. If that unique piece of 19th century engineering is not worth an article to the "Easterners" then nothing will be. Unfortunately, I cannot go back in time and get pictures of the way it was. Hey Tom! Encourage your wife to come along. My wife would love to have her company. She gets tired of seeing nothing but men. She might even get your wife interested in trains. She can be quite persuasive. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 19:54:41 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: Lines West activities? Content-Length: 2381 W.C. Knepper wrote: > > Just quit trying to derail a good thing. > Hi W.C! Don't be sour here. Nobody is trying to derail a good thing. I would like to see it maid it better. At present it is only a "small" good thing to those of us in the West. Good things must be made better, or they will get worse. Nothing ever remains the same. The PRRT&HS started small in the East and grew. Maybe it is time for it to reach west. After all, the PRR grew to the west. Some groups try to stifle suggestions for improvements. They offend those who might be interested, and eventually "the faithful" are driven away. Those groups die. Smarter groups try to harnass the energy of newcomers with suggestions and look for ways to take a good thing and make it better. At no time in this thread was there EVER any criticism of the KEYSTONE. I have not personally subscribed long enough to be anything except thoroughly impressed. The only criticism was the PRRT&HS turning down offers of assistance with its WEB page. It eventually paid for it. In today's world, the society needs to change, because it is nearly impossible for someone West of the Allehenies. This should be an obvious fact to anyone. How many PITTSBURGH residents are active members? Today I collaporate with colleagues in England, Germany, Russia, Poland, South Africa, South America, Japan, Korea, and many locations in the United States. We rarely get the opportunity to meet in person or to use the fancy TELECONFERENCING systems. We exchange information and ideas. I realize not everyone in the PRRT&HS has a computer or wants to learn about it. Why should they hinder those who do. I am no youngster myself. I am 50. I do not plan to grow old gracefully. Old age will have to drag me in kicking and screaming. I am constantly learning new things and new ideas. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W.C. Knepper" Subject: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out (fwd) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:35:10 -0500 Content-Length: 9900 Hi Carl, You guys out there in Pittsburgh had better advertise the chapter........Two many people out that way didn't know of the chapter.........When are we going to have another convention out there ? I know what you mean when you said that the Lewistown Station paper were a mess.........The York chapter (Northern Central Chapter) took a whole truck load up to the station ..........It was a mess.....dirty , filthy is a better word, and stink.......like it had been stored in a damp basement for 50 years.....like it had ! They are trying to make arrangements to hire some staff to start working the papers again........but with the work in front of them, it will take more years than I probably have left. Keep up the good work out there in the western end of the line.....Maybe it will spark some others to start chapters !!!! It takes members and effort to get and keep a chapter running. Just like it takes Jerry and Mark to put out the good looking web pagers. (A1) W.C.Knepper ( boxcar46@nfdc.net) ---------- > From: Carl Izzo > To: PRR-Talk > Cc: Jerry Britton ; Mark D Bej > Subject: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out (fwd) > Date: Sunday, December 07, 1997 10:28 PM > > So much PRR information; so little time! > > The national PRRT&HS officers, board members and "Keystone" editorial > staff are to be commended for the job they are doing. Believe me, they > are doing the best they can. Time is the enemy. It is very difficult to > pursue pet projects while working. It is even more difficult after > retiring. I am now a consultant and don't have time to read my E-mail. > > My hat is off to Jerry Britton, Mark Bej and others who are able to provide > us with PRR information on the internet. Thank you! Keep up the good > work! > > The following is MY opinion on the archives at Lewistown Station and is NOT > the official position of the PRRT&HS. Some steps have been taken to make > the information available. Owing to the large volume of material at the > Lewistown Station, and its condition, it will be some time before members > and the public are able to access anything in a reasonable manner. The > material was not only dirty and bad smelling, it was disorganized. I > know, because I had some of the drawings and maps from the Pittsburgh Union > Station in my garage until we were able to find more suitable storage. We > had to remove it from the station within a limited time frame because it > was slated for destruction. > > Carl P. Izzo, President > Pittsburgh Chapter, PRRT&HS > > ---------- > > Farom: PRR-Talk > > To: PRR-Talk > > Subject: PRR-Talk Digest - 12/05/97 > > Date: Friday, December 05, 1997 12:10 AM > > > > PRR-Talk Digest - Friday, December 5, 1997 > > > > Trainphone > > by > > RE: P54 cars on other roads > > by Andrew S. Miller > > RE: PRR power in Wash DC > > by Harmantas, Andrew G. > > Re: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out > > by Donald E. Harper, Jr. > > Re: Answers and Questions... > > by SUVCW ORR > > Re: Trainphone > > by Jerry Britton > > Trainphone > > by George Pierson > > Trainphone -Reply > > by > > RE: Trainphone (LONG!!!) > > by Doug Drew > > Re: PRR electrification at DC; Was Florida train power at Wash DC > > by Robert Johnston > > Re: Re: New "Keystone" Is Out (fwd) > > by Mark D Bej > > Re: Trainphone (fwd) > > by Mark D Bej > > Trainphone FAQ > > by Jerry > > Re: Trainphone > > by Drew McGhee > > Re: Trainphone -Reply > > by Stephen Bartlett > > RE: K-5, now P70's > > by Bob Zoeller > > RE: MP-54's Again > > by Bob Zoeller > > RE: New Freedom Station > > by Bob Zoeller > > Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 12/02/97 > > by Rob Schoenberg > > George Pierson's Tuscarora Valley RR > > by Jerry > > Re: Trainphone > > by Chris Brandt > > Re: more on the Florida trains > > by Hal6963 > > RE: New Freedom Station > > by Bob Zoeller > > Re: Trainphone > > by Stephen Bartlett > > Re: Re Trains to Florida > > by PRRMAN > > Re: PRR in Wash area > > by PRRMAN > > Re: New "Keystone" Is Out > > by Larry P. Morgan > > Attn: N-Scalers > > by GLD 828 > > Re: Trainphone (LONG!!!) > > by KEMACPRR > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Subject: Trainphone > > From: > > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 97 7:28:13 EST > > > > Greetings everyone, > > > > I hope this subject hasn't been discussed recently since I don't like > > boring all of you with redundant questions. > > > > Can anyone explain a little about the PRR's Trainphone (or Train Phone?) > > communication system? Or suggest some good reference material? When did > > > the system come into use? I've seen some photos of tenders with what > looks > > like antennas on them. Was it used on both freight and passenger trains. > > > Speaking of passenger trains I've seen brass models of PRR and other > > railroads with the antenna on passenger car roofs but I have never seen > > photos of other railroad locomotives with the antenna's on them. Are the > > > models wrong or haven't I been looking hard enough at the other > railroads. > > Bottomline, were they unique to the PRR and if so why? Recently someone > > mentioned that either train stations or interlocking towers were equipped > > > with the trainphone as well. What would a typical antenna look like on a > > > structure like this...the small round disks you see on some cabin cars or > > > the long tubular antenna found on locomotives. And where would it be > > located..on the roof, on the exterior wall, on a pole??? Some photos > show > > the antennas going through the roof on some locomotives but on others > they > > seem to travel down along either the nose of the loco or down the rear of > > > the unit. Was there a standard or did the interior plumbing of the > > locomotives require variations? In the cab what did the unit look like? > A > > regular telephone handset with a button to push to either talk or listen? > > > If noticed that the portion of the antenna that runs parallel to the loco > > > roof is a different diameter than the vertical segment, the part that > goes > > through the roof/nose. Why is that? Was the horizontal segment a hollow > > > tube with a smaller diameter wire running through it? > > > > Was the Trainphone used system wide or limited to certain regions? Was a > > > certain train assigned a specific frequency and could different trains > > speak to each other? > > > > I hope I didn't ask to many questions. Any info you can provide would be > > > greatly appreciated. > > > > Kris Kollar > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Subject: RE: P54 cars on other roads > > From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) > > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 97 08:51:49 -0500 > > > > I was unaware of the Erie and SQH. The other raos I knew of was the > Boston & > > Maine. They bought quite a few for commuter service. > > > > regards > > Andy Miller > > > > >To list members at PRR-TALK@dsop.com > > > > > >A while back, there was some discussion of P54 coaches > > >on the list. My memory was that somebody mentioned > > >that P54's were used by at least seven different railroads, > > >but as far as I could tell, never did mention > > >which seven roads these were. > > > > > >So, which seven roads were they? I will take a guess, > > >but this is all it is: just a guess! > > > > > >(1) PRR (obvious) > > >(2) LIRR (likely, since it was a subsidiary) > > >(3) PRSL (same as above) > > >(4) Erie (I have seen a photo of an ex-PRR PB54 w/Erie > > > lettering, so a P54 isn't too much of a strech) > > >(5) Susquehanna (same as Erie above) > > > > > >At this point, I give up! So if someone has the > > >real answer, I for one would like to know... > > > > > >Till later... > > > > > > Claus Schlund (modeling steam-era PRR in N scale) > > > San Francisco, CA > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- > > >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > > > >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:46:27 EST Subject: PRRT&HS was(Once-Singed LINESWEST responds once again) Content-Length: 1272 REgarding the future of the PRRT&HS, I again with most of Tom's statements. The problem is that local chapters host the National Convnetion. With the death of the GR&I chapter and the disappearance of the Cincinnati chapter, the Pittsburgh Chapter is the furthest west. If you want to influence the Society, the easiest way is to form chapters west of Pittsburgh. In order to be eligible to run for the board, you need to be a past chapter president. Without chapter membership, you are shut out. This especially true since the only thing the membership votes on is the board members. All other decisions are made by the BOD. The only benefit any member receives from the Society is the Keystone unless you belong to a chapter. Until the archives at Lewiston are up and running, there is little the society can offer. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:46:29 EST Subject: Re: Questions?? Content-Length: 1024 In a message dated 97-12-06 22:00:31 EST, locoshop@juno.com writes: << I had a couple of questions I was wondering if anyone could answer. First I was wondering when the Pennsylvania Railroad changed their lettering on cars from the old way of spelling out Pennsylvania and went to the Circle Keystone emblem? January 1, 1930 Also when was the change from Circle Keystone to Shadow Keystone? February, 1954 When did PRR change their passenger locos from DGLE 5 stripe to Tuscan 5 stripe August, 1952 and then to single stripe > November, 1955 Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:46:30 EST Subject: Re: New Keystone Is Out Content-Length: 554 The Pittsburgh Chapter still exists. It meets the second Friday of the month at Good Sheapard Church, Monroeville, PA Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 00:32:24 -0500 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: The Accidental Railfan (almost) Content-Length: 887 My sister who lives in Pittsburgh got married last Saturday (it was fun driving through the 2 feet of snow we got in Erie), and the directions to the wedding mentioned driving through Conway. Sure enough, the chapel is right across from Conway Yard. No time before hand to check it out, and it was dark by the time it was over :-( Atleast I have good directions for a future visit. -- Jerry Shickler (now in North East, PA) e-mail: geshick@velocity.net ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bill.laird@coastalcorp.com Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 5:47:57 -0600 Subject: RR Simulation/Games Evaluations (LONG) Content-Length: 8780 A couple of days ago I sent out a message requesting evaluations of railroad simulations and games. I was very gratified to promptly receive a number of replies. Some of the replies included a request to share any information I received. First my sincere thanks to the following individuals (some of whom I only have e-mail addresses for and not any name) who replied with evaluations or information on web sites having simulations/games. drmdrm@mail.netnitco.net Don johncoop@microsoft.com John ddrew@channing-bete.com mercury@metronet.com Charles scraft@cswnet.com John M. Martin kd5xb@amsat.org Earl Needham dennis@BBN.COM Dennis sbartlet@capecod.net Steve Bartlett Jcomita@juno.com John Comita Following are summaries of the information provided on various railroad simulations/games: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Package: Track Builder Web Site: http://www.usaor.net/signal/ Evaluation: None provided ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Package: Trainmaster from SSI Web Site: None Evaluation: It's nice, but has no in-cab graphics. The program is about running a train down the road, not switching or anything else. It has a side view of the train and tracks. This program was advertised in the back of Trains magazine some time back. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Package: Railfreight Cornish China Clay from SIAM (other games also available from SIAM) Web Site: http://www.siam.co.uk/siam/siam.htm Evaluation: I have had hours of enjoyment playing simulation games from an outfit in England called SIAM games; they have a web page (below) that has their entire catalog and a few free sample games (cut down or simplified versions, but with the same track layout). I liked playing one of them (Railfreight Cornish China Clay) so much that I have based my home layout on its trackplan and operations (modified from clay to ore, and moved from Cornwall to the USA). These people really try to simulate the operations of a railroad or a segment thereof, and it shows. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Package: Trainmaster Locomotive Simulator, from Corporate Strategies, Inc. Web Site: http://www.rails.com Evaluation: The screen view is a set of very realistically performing controls on the lower half, and a profile view with several signal choices on the top. Sound is included if you have a sound card. I don't know how it would do on an LCD screen, but the demo gives you the chance to check it out. File size is around 800 kb to download. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Package: Train Engineer from Abracadata Web Site: http://abracadata.com Evaluation: Seems little juvenile. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Package: Freeware program simulating two New York Subway Interlockings by Bernard S. Greenberg Web Site: http://www.basistech.com/bsg/nxsys.htm Evaluation: Some fascinating front views that can move you through the interlockings. Moderate detail, but well worth a look. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Package: Frank Bryan, Bryan Consulting Services, last seen in Missouri (he moves around) has several DOS based simulations, NE Corridor, CTC Dispatcher, a Metra (Chicago) CTC simulator, a Track Warrant simulator, and a locomotive simulator. Web Site: None Evaluation: These use ASCII symbols to generate the screen display. On the CTC, TWC, and loco simulator you can set up your own route files with a little planning. The route files are not compiled. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Package: Train Dispatcher Web Site: http://www.usaor.net/signal/train/ Evaluation: Train Dispatcher is on heck of a simulation and it really keeps you going. It like going to work at the chief dispatcher's chair for the NE corridor. I think a laptop screen would be too small as you would have to shift between districts. The idal situation would be a 17 or 20 in monitor and 1280 resolution. I use a svga and still shift between districts. If you have 1024 or 1280 res for you laptop, this program will keep you busy for many hours. This game really does need a high resolution screen though. To see the entire division requires 1280x1024. Also for my taste, it was too mouse intensive - it really needed a keyboard commandline interface. Advantages of this game, Good operational simulation, lots of trains, complex 4 ML wide trackage. Random scheduling makes playing Friday and Saturday more challenging each time (game is tougher later in the work week, just like the real thing). No flexability. Certainly the NECorridor is challenging but there are other territories that are just as frustrating. The old version of this program allowed customized territories, sadly missing in this version. New version is more realistic than the NE corridor simulation. It uses train symbols as tracking ID's and the display can be changed from black on white to white on black and with the companion program, it will allow you to build any territory you want. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Package: Railroad Tycoon from MicroProse (Sid Meier author) Web Site: None Evaluation: Focuses more on the railroad as a social entity, and it's relationship to the industrialization of the country, rather than being strictly a "dispatching" type of game. One can start out in the Eastern US, Western US, England, or Western Europe back in the infancy of railroads, and it's up to you to find your initial traffic base, build on that, and expand your railroad via branch lines to new industrial sources; main lines to new cities; 'rate wars' with other railroads serving the same cities; upgrading your line with tunnels, viaducts, new motive power and trains; etc. You can even build industries such as steel mills, to feed your railroad even more traffic, if you have enough money (no ICC in this game!). Motive power and traffic sources change as time goes on. You are responsible for planning train routings, and pickups and setoffs at key industrial sites. Trains make money or not, depending how well you devise your routings and schedules. The income of your railroad as a whole is tracked, which allows you (or not) to buy new equipment, upgrade your lines, buy other railroad's stock, retire your own debt. You can play in "cutthroat" mode, where the computer plays against you and can actually have you deposed from your own railroad, via stock purchases. You 'win' based on how your railroad's bottom line compares to the railroads of three other "tycoons" that the computer controls (names like James J. Hill and Cornelius Vanderbilt). Games can be saved and continued at a later time. If I botch a strategy, I often go back to an earlier 'save' and try to rewrite history. It's a game of great challenge and depth (actually, the best thought-through computer game I've ever seen), which probably explains why it's out of production. It takes something more than a quick trigger finger to play. I wouldn't recommend playing it on a laptop, though. Once your railroad gets fairly large, a good-sized monitor is required to keep track of all the activity, plus there are a lot of palettes and 'news screens' floating around. For my money, this type of simulation beats a "model railroad simulator" such as It has really made me appreciate the intelligence and skill of giants such as J. Edgar Thomson. --------------- END OF EVALUATIONS ------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 10:34:52 -0500 From: tmahon@cfnh.com (Tom Mahon) Subject: American Model Toy Cars Content-Length: 712 Season's Greetings! Picked up three American Model Toy passenger cars in a "lot" box, baggage, coach and observation. All aluminum and set up for interior lighting with large bulbs. Anyone faniliar with these and do they bear any semblence to any PRR equipment? Thanks. Tom Mahon ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Need keyboarding help for "Keystone Crossings" Date: Tue, 9 Dec 97 12:06:09 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1850 Following several suggestions that a greater "modeling the PRR" presence is needed on the web, I've beefed up the (planned) content of my modeling page at "Keystone Crossings". One thing I already added are three excerpts from Model Railroader's "Ask MR" and "Paint Shop" departments. I have entered recent questions and responses and would like to do many more. The time consuming part, however, is keying the data in. If someone would like to go through past MR's and key in the questions and answers that are relevant to PRR modeling, I can quickly add the HTML (Web) tags and get it online. Note that these Q&As are not necessarily Pennsy only; one that I just entered referenced REA car modeling. If you are interested, take a look at one that I have already posted. Enter the data in the same format, including the issue and page it appeared on, who submitted the question, and who provided the answer. You can type it in paragraph format right in your e-mail client, then e-mail it to me...with ONLY ONE INSTANCE PER E-MAIL, please! Do not reference or key in complete PRR articles, features, car plans, etc. Let's stick to the "Paint Shop", "Ask MR", "Bull Session" and the like, first. Thanks. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: SALE - "Train Cam" for rent? Date: Tue, 9 Dec 97 14:34:26 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1209 I am contemplating purchase of an HO guage "Train Cam". This is an HO diesel with a very small camera (1 inch diameter) mounted in its nose. On board is a transmitter, which transmits the video signal up to 100 feet to a receiver. From the receiver, you can connect to a VCR, television, computer capture card, etc. You place the TrainCam diesel ahead of your own motive power and take a ride on your layout! Focal range is six inches to infinity. These run around $400. I am contemplating purchasing one for rentals. Is anyone interested in using one of these for, say, $50 a month? --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 09 Dec 97 17:00:49 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: FYI: PRR 742523 Content-Length: 756 (I think -- reporting marks rather tattered and rusty), a corrugated side gondola with "modern" PRR keystone, spotted traveling south in a long freight on Guilford/Springfield Terminal's former B&M Conn. River Line, on 4:50 pm 12/9/97, between East Deerfield and Springfield, Mass. In case anyone is interested in such things. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249 Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 18:05:36 EST Subject: PRR T&HS Chapter Content-Length: 1122 OK guys - here's the "gauntlet" how about a "CYBER" Chapter? As I recall we needed names of certain number ( 25? ) to start a Chapter -and accept a standard "Charter" to satisfy legalities (Remember that James J D Lynch really is a "Philadelphia Lawyer" ! ) In the old time "real world" we also needed to take up a collection and establish dues - to provide for mailing In this "enviroment" Chapter "Newsletter" could be e-mailed FREE and meetings held in a "Chat Room" - then - if anyone was so inclined they could run for President and become eligible for the BOT Remember that i HAVE done this once or twice before ANY INTEREST or is this just REALLY goofy ? Dick Ross ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 21:28:41 EST Subject: Re: Re Trains to Florida Content-Length: 1280 In a message dated 97-12-09 03:53:19 EST, robs@protocol.zycad.com writes: >I'm pretty sure that all of the GG1 cabs were the same-pretty darn cramped! Yes, they were! There was room for a rider to stand behind the engineman or fireman, but it was nothing like a diesel cab. >The separation of the fireman and engineer sure isn't the optimal arrangement They weren't really separated. A passageway (which was easy to walk through) connected the two sides of the cab. The engineman and fireman could easily converse, but had to twist in their seats if they wished to see each other. If the fireman passed out, it might be a while before the engineman noticed anything wrong. On the four occasions on which I rode GG-1's, the two men kept up a lively conversation--safety might have been part of the motivation for this. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 22:54:54 -0500 From: "Tom von Trott" Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter Content-Length: 1810 Sounds very interesting, there is the possiblity of a large membership, especially with low or no dues. Keep me updated, I might be interested. Tom von Trott *********** REPLY PARTITION *********** On 12/9/97, at 6:05 PM, VVA249 wrote: > OK guys - here's the "gauntlet" how about a "CYBER" Chapter? > As I recall we needed names of certain number ( 25? ) to start a Chapter >-and accept a standard "Charter" to satisfy legalities (Remember that James J >D Lynch really is a "Philadelphia Lawyer" ! ) > In the old time "real world" we also needed to take up a collection and >establish dues - to provide for mailing In this "enviroment" Chapter >"Newsletter" could be e-mailed FREE and meetings held in a "Chat Room" - then >- if anyone was so inclined they could run for President and become eligible >for the BOT Remember that i HAVE done this once or twice before > ANY INTEREST or is this just REALLY goofy ? >Dick Ross > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Wheels & Paint Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:20:06 -0500 Content-Length: 697 Does anyone know how long it has been illegal to paint wheels on railroad wheelsets? I think I'm right about the no-no of painting the wheels and axles. (probably for crack/defect detection) Regards, Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 18:57:02 -1000 From: "Eric J. Minton" Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter Content-Length: 1788 Aloha, Idea is not "goofy" but some of us "FAR" West might have a hard time with the time zones. Thanks for the Idea, I wonder how many others will be intrigued. Eric At 06:05 PM 12/9/97 EST, VVA249 wrote: > OK guys - here's the "gauntlet" how about a "CYBER" Chapter? > As I recall we needed names of certain number ( 25? ) to start a Chapter >-and accept a standard "Charter" to satisfy legalities (Remember that James J >D Lynch really is a "Philadelphia Lawyer" ! ) > In the old time "real world" we also needed to take up a collection and >establish dues - to provide for mailing In this "enviroment" Chapter >"Newsletter" could be e-mailed FREE and meetings held in a "Chat Room" - then >- if anyone was so inclined they could run for President and become eligible >for the BOT Remember that i HAVE done this once or twice before > ANY INTEREST or is this just REALLY goofy ? >Dick Ross > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:09:26 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: The Accidental Railfan (almost) Content-Length: 945 >My sister who lives in Pittsburgh got married last Saturday (it was fun >driving through the 2 feet of snow we got in Erie), and the directions >to the wedding mentioned driving through Conway. Sure enough, the >chapel is right across from Conway Yard. No time before hand to check >it out, and it was dark by the time it was over :-( Atleast I have good >directions for a future visit. >-- >Jerry Shickler ===== When you go there next summer Jerry, be sure to allow for two feet elevation difference! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bill.laird@coastalcorp.com Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 3:48:51 -0600 Subject: PRR T&HS Chapter -Reply Content-Length: 1484 I live in Texas and have no chance of becomming active in a chapter unless a CYBER Chapter was established. I am very interested in joining one, would support dues (if required), and volunteer to help in chapter activities/projects. I think it is a geat idea. Bill Laird Houston, Texas >>> "VVA249@aol.com" 12/9/97, 05:30pm wrote>>> OK guys - here's the "gauntlet" how about a "CYBER" Chapter? As I recall we needed names of certain number ( 25? ) to start a Chapter -and accept a standard "Charter" to satisfy legalities (Remember that James J D Lynch really is a "Philadelphia Lawyer" ! ) In the old time "real world" we also needed to take up a collection and establish dues - to provide for mailing In this "enviroment" Chapter "Newsletter" could be e-mailed FREE and meetings held in a "Chat Room" - then - if anyone was so inclined they could run for President and become eligible for the BOT Remember that i HAVE done this once or twice before ANY INTEREST or is this just REALLY goofy ? Dick Ross ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 07:02:57 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 2194 On 12/9/97 7:05 PM, VVA249 (VVA249@aol.com) wrote: > OK guys - here's the "gauntlet" how about a "CYBER" Chapter? Very interesting idea!!! > As I recall we needed names of certain number ( 25? ) to start a Chapter >-and accept a standard "Charter" to satisfy legalities (Remember that James J >D Lynch really is a "Philadelphia Lawyer" ! ) We have 165+ subscribers on the "PRR-Talk" list. Seems as if we hold regular meetings...24 hours a day, 365 days a year! And guess what...no dues! I can hear it now, "The 2001 convention will be hosted by the cyber chapter of the PRRT&HS". Nah, I don't think they'd go for it. Just a guess. > In the old time "real world" we also needed to take up a collection and >establish dues - to provide for mailing In this "enviroment" Chapter >"Newsletter" could be e-mailed FREE and meetings held in a "Chat Room" - then >- if anyone was so inclined they could run for President and become eligible >for the BOT Remember that i HAVE done this once or twice before Do we need a newsletter, or can does "PRR-Talk" fit that bill? I have access to a "plug-in" for my web server that allows real-time chat via the Web. The end user doesn't need anything special, other than a current version of a browser that supports frames. Wouldn't want to run it on my current 56K connection, but I am planning to increase my bandwidth in 1998. > ANY INTEREST or is this just REALLY goofy ? I'm interested; and no, it's not just "goofy". This may have real possibilities. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 06:14:20 -0600 (CST) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter -Reply Content-Length: 1300 Actually there may be enough Pennsy fans in the general Houston-Galveston area to start a small chapter. Bill Hughes, also of Galveston, is one - his grandfather worked for PRR in the Philly area. Marty at TrainSource indicated to me that there are a number of fans in the Houston area. He would be the first person to ask about real numbers of local fans. In message writes: > I live in Texas and have no chance of becomming active in a chapter > unless a CYBER Chapter was established=2E I am very interested in > joining one, would support dues (if required), and volunteer to help > in chapter activities/projects=2E > > I think it is a geat idea=2E > > Bill Laird > Houston, Texas > Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Cyber Chapter Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 08:56:44 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1821 In just the few hours since the original post was made, I think it is quite clear that there is enough interest in a "cyber" chapter of the PRRT&HS. Question is, would the PRRT&HS fight it since it is an "unusual" situation. They probably wouldn't have grounds to fight it, based on requirements for establishing a chapter, yet I'd bet they won't like it. An Internet chapter could gain a lot of power very quickly. As for my involvement, I cannot volunteer as an officer. Besides my full-time job, I have a business on the side, an infant, coach soccer, and am on the board of directors of a non-profit organization. However, I will volunteer my web programming capabilities and even offer free web site hosting for the chapter. By default, at no additional cost, the chapter could have its own subdomain (e.g.: cyberprr.dsop.com). Or, we could register a name with the InterNIC and have a custom domain served from my (or any) site. Cost is $50 per year, with first two years payable up front. (Note that this money goes to the InterNIC, not me.) I checked some time back, and "pennsy.com", "prr.com", and many others were already in use. Count me in!!! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Robert Johnston Subject: Founding a Cyber-chapter Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:07:27 -0500 Content-Length: 469 I would be very interested in this possibility. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:12:46 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter Content-Length: 666 Tom von Trott wrote: > > Sounds very interesting, there is the possiblity of a large membership, especially with low or no dues. Keep me updated, I might be interested. > It looks to me like we may already have that! Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: Re Trains to Florida Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:51:40 -0500 Content-Length: 1161 > On the four occasions on which > I rode GG-1's, the two men kept up a lively conversation--safety might > have been part of the motivation for this. _____________________ I believe cab practice on the Pennsy was that both crew would call out track signals, i.e.: "Clear!", and the other would answer "Clear" as a double check for safety. This might have been done even on engines with cab signal indicators, a kind of neat Pennsy-ish feature that made high speed running along the NE corridor just that much safer. So, if the crew were following procedure, they would be aware if each other were alert. Or so it seems to me, andrew harmantas, an SPF curretnly at C&O Milepost FM Zero. Still waiting for the trains. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:03:57 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter Content-Length: 2636 > OK guys - here's the "gauntlet" how about a "CYBER" Chapter? snip > ANY INTEREST or is this just REALLY goofy ? >Dick Ross Well...based on the replies already, I think a lot of us would go for the CYBER chapter. Some suggestions: 1) The newsletter should be seperate from PRR-talk, and should be a direct emailing of an edited form - this implies an editor and contributing authors. This mailing could be limited to "members" or sent out via PRR-talk. 2) As an official chapter, we would and should vie for the annual meeting - the only quaestion would be where physically to hold it! 3) Chapter activities could relate specifically to information services via electronic media. That is, the chapter could offer its help in maintaining the WWW page for PRRT&HS, offering electronic digests/indecies of the archives, and could publish material via the WWW when recovery of costs is no longer important. The chapter might also become involved in such projects as providing back issues of the Keystone and other PRRT&HS publications on CD ROM (Jerry?). 4) For an example of what a spontaneous on-line group can do - check out the Layout Design SIG's WWW Primer on Layout Design at: http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/LDSIGprimer/TOC.html I maintain these web pages and we continue to add to this VERY large project! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** "I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!" "Evolution is a fact, get used to it" _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |[] []| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | PENNSYLVANIA | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | _________________________ |_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:13:51 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Cyberspace Chapter of PRR-Talk Content-Length: 1593 Greetings, I am interested in forming a Cyberspace Chapter of the PRR-Talk in Franklin, Va. At the present time there will only be one member(myself)so there should be no dissent as to how this chapter will be operated. Whatever the home Chapter requires will be duly considered, as the information shared is very helpful to all. It is hoped that somewhere in the incorporation papers an allowance will be made for the use of the term "Brunswick Green" when refering to the color used on PRR locos. I will collect such dues as I see fit and use them only for the purchase of PRR equipment. All posts will be confined to the dissemination of PRR related items. At least after this one..... I solemnly promise that I will not let a day go by without having a thought about the PRR. Now on a serious note, can anyone come forth with information on the operation on the PRR line on the Eastern Shore from Philadelphia to Cape Charles. Were there any passenger trains? What type freight was carried? What type diesels were used? Did the PRR own or operate any ferries at Cape Charles? Sincerely, S.A. McCALL hosam ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 10:23:31 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 3010 On 12/10/97 10:03 AM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >1) The newsletter should be seperate from PRR-talk, and should be a direct >emailing of an edited form - this implies an editor and contributing >authors. This mailing could be limited to "members" or sent out via >PRR-talk. If separate -- which may indeed make the most sense -- it should go to members-only. That would give reason for one to join and pay dues. Since we would be a "cyber" chapter, yes, the newsletter should go out electronically. To further our "electronic" capability, once a newsletter becomes, say, a year old, we would post it to the chapter's web site for the public to see...a teaser to join. My concern would be content. What would you put in a private chapter newsletter that isn't already (or concurrently) being discussed via "PRR-Talk" or on one of our many web sites. I certainly wouldn't condone a "gag" order for those of us with web sites! > >2) As an official chapter, we would and should vie for the annual meeting >- the only quaestion would be where physically to hold it! We would probably have much difficulty in getting national approval to host a convention since most of the work would drop on one or only a few people. However, if it were doable, I'd support the "Lines Westerners". Maybe we could work out reduced fares with Amtrak to Chicago? > >3) Chapter activities could relate specifically to information services >via electronic media. That is, the chapter could offer its help in >maintaining the WWW page for PRRT&HS, offering electronic digests/indecies >of the archives, and could publish material via the WWW when recovery of >costs is no longer important. The chapter might also become involved in >such projects as providing back issues of the Keystone and other PRRT&HS >publications on CD ROM (Jerry?). Sure, something I'd like to see done anyway. > >4) For an example of what a spontaneous on-line group can do - check out >the Layout Design SIG's WWW Primer on Layout Design at: >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/LDSIGprimer/TOC.html >I maintain these web pages and we continue to add to this VERY large project! Though not contributed to lately, there's also the "Hobo's Guide to the Pennsy", a branch by branch history at http://prr.dsop.com/guide/index.html . --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 11:12:26 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1771 On 12/10/97 11:56 AM, Roger Kirkpatrick (kirkpatr@marietta.edu) wrote: >Would this chapter require dues? For what purpose? Membership in the PRR >Society? Why? I'm sure there is some chapter expense when hosting a convention. Even a minimal annual amount of $5 should be assessed. Another possibility would be that the cyber chapter could monitor eBay (online auction) and actually acquire historical Pennsy documents. The chapter could also develop a standardized module size (HO or N) which we could assemble and operate at national conventions. Each person who wants to participate can model their favorite scene on the Pennsy...no limit to locale! The reason I state "develop a standardized module" is that many say the N-track standard is to low. Also, we'd have to allow for four-track mains, not just two. We also might want the main to run down the center of the [non-end] modules so that accurate structures/scenery can be modeled on both sides of the track. N-scale allows more in a given space, obviously, but HO allows for more detailing and is more common. What do ya think? (Damned...I'm getting excited!) --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:56:11 -0500 (EST) From: Roger Kirkpatrick Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter Content-Length: 1668 I would think a cyber chapter dues might consist of filling out an e-mail form with an e-mail and, possibly, a v-mail or s-mail address, interest areas in PRR, and other RR interests or expertise. The newsletter would differ from PRR-Talk in being edited and reviewed before being published. Some high percentage of posts to all lists, including this one, are wrong, partially wrong, incomplete, opinions, trivia, SPAM, and/or poorly written and edited. I would assume that PRR-Talk would continue to flourish and would be a source of ideas and information that would lead to articles in the Cyber Chapter Newsletter. Would this chapter require dues? For what purpose? Membership in the PRR Society? Why? Cheers, Roger, member lots of RR societies! _______ S. Roger Kirkpatrick ______|_____| [ ] |___________ 927 Colegate Drive | | | | Marietta, OH 45750 | | [ ] [ ] | | | | | | Fax - 614-376-4777 |__|______________________|__| Home - 614-374-6732 O<=>O O<=>O ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Cyber-chapter thoughts Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 12:12:49 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 2095 On 12/10/97 12:28 PM, Robert A. Boyd (rboydrrs@inlink.com) wrote: >* set up the chat room so that GIF and text files could be displayed or >transferred, thus allowing show-and-tell. Jerry, whats the tech on this? A "chat room" is NOT used for this. A web or ftp site is. > >* perhaps Jerry would be interested in transferring PRR-Talk to a "Lines >Cyber" function? Jerry? No, I'm not interested in doing this. The "proposed" cyber chapter could "endorse" "PRR-Talk" as its official public mailing list, if it wishes. This is the case with my "Conrail-Talk" list which is endorsed by the Conrail Technical Society. > >* in line with that, a possible web site or FTP station should emphasize >data access. This would include modelers photos, historical materials, >show-and-tell of peoples collections, and photo tours of modern day PRR >sites. Just because it isn't painted DGLE doesn't mean no one will want >to see a photo of it! What you mention already exists..."Keystone Crossings", Mark's site, other sites... Duplication is not needed; uniqueness is! What would a cyber chapter web site that my site hasn't already at least started to address? I don't have everything online yet that I intend to, and I certainly am not going to stop adding. I can see that the need is present for such a chapter, but what are its benefits? Monthly (or weekly) chats, modular layout, possible electronic newsletter, what else? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter -Reply Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 12:23:37 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1119 On 12/10/97 1:08 PM, bill.laird@coastalcorp.com (bill.laird@coastalcorp.com) wrote: >Don't know what we would do about corner modules...... At one end, the Rockville Bridge with half the junctions at each end. That would provide a curve at each corner with a variable width straightaway to connect them. At the other end, the Horseshoe Curve, sans elevation changes. Modeling the mountains as backdrops would probably provide enough effect. (Then someone could make a Kittaning Point module.) --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 10:24:43 CST Subject: PRR videos Content-Length: 1363 Greeting, all, Just treated myself to another two PRR videos from Penn Valley - this is the Clarence Weaver material. I got "S&L story" and "Susquehanna Div" (I think that's the name). Anyway, they are the best I've ever seen -- clear 16mm footage, good lighting, the whole ten yards. The locations - the area around Northumberland - aren't as interesting to me as other parts of the PRR but for clear colorful footage of the PRR in the final steam years, these videos are GREAT. I still love Mark I Video's Pennsy tape for the footage of T-1's at speed but the Clarence Weaver stuff is a must if you love PRR steam and (like me) are too young to have seen the real thing. What are your favorites? At the price of some videos, it's nice to know ahead of time what you're getting. PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:28:46 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Cyber-chapter thoughts Content-Length: 2315 Well, it seems the idea of a cyber-chapter of the PRR HTS is receiving a ringing endorsement from the masses! I am going to toss out a few random thoughts, just to see where they might lead: * a "regular meeting" could be scheduled in a chat room specifically established on the "Lines Cyber" web site. I would suggest that this be formally done and scheduled, say, once a month so that tuning in is not an endless chore that one has to do all the time. * in line with that, schedule a "talk time" which could be set for once a week or even at a given time each night. This would not be a formal meeting, but would simply be a reference point so folks would know that the maximum attendance would be on hand for idle chatter. * set up the chat room so that GIF and text files could be displayed or transferred, thus allowing show-and-tell. Jerry, whats the tech on this? * mind you, these formal meets would not be a restriction on dropping in any old time. It would merely be to give everyone a focal point. * perhaps Jerry would be interested in transferring PRR-Talk to a "Lines Cyber" function? Jerry? * a thing to consider is that there are a great many people who cannot get to a PRR SIG meeting because they live in Outer Mongolia or some such. While a majority of PRR folk will live in PRR territory, there are a lot who are interested, but just can't access. A cyber-SIG would solve the location problem; which is why I suspect this is the wave of the future. * in line with that, a possible web site or FTP station should emphasize data access. This would include modelers photos, historical materials, show-and-tell of peoples collections, and photo tours of modern day PRR sites. Just because it isn't painted DGLE doesn't mean no one will want to see a photo of it! All right: shot my face off: out of ammo. Next? ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MCrim1361 Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:43:25 EST Subject: Cyber Chapter Content-Length: 550 For one of the best ideas yet . . . COUNT ME IN. Marvin Crim, Anderson, Indiana ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: light building color Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:02:00 -0600 Content-Length: 670 Following up a previous post wherein I gave my personal mix for this, 50%PollyScale reefer white and 50% PollyScale military color khaki, the number khaki is 500060. There is another khaki with very different and inappropriate tint. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bill.laird@coastalcorp.com Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:08:14 -0600 Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter -Reply Content-Length: 1596 >>> "jerry@dsop.com" 12/10/97, 10:29am wrote>>> >The chapter could also develop a standardized module >size (HO or N) which we could assemble and operate at >national conventions. Each person who wants to participate >can model their favorite scene on the Pennsy........ Great idea Jerry. Perhaps we should develop very similar module standards (height, width, length, electrical bus, etc. identical) for both HO and N. It would then be and individual modeler's choice as to weither to lay HO or N track. With a little thought we might even be able to come up with a standard for a universal module, HO and N track on the same module separated by a senic break. Perhaps something like this. +----------------------------------+ |==================================| |==================================| | N scale side | |-------- senic break -------------| | HO scale side | |==================================| |==================================| +----------------------------------+ Don't know what we would do about corner modules...... Bill Laird Houston, Texas ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Cyber Chapter Poll Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 13:10:05 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1260 Aw right...now you dunnit! I've created an online Web poll (a la Guest Book style) at "Keystone Crossings" which asks the question "Should we create a 'cyber' chapter of the PRRT&HS"? You can find it at http://prr.dsop.com/poll1/poll1.html . Please complete the couple of questions that are there. It asks for your name, e-mail address, city/state (country), general thoughts, and desired activities/benefits. This format allows for each reader to review what others have said and also allows us to print it out for presenting to the PRRT&HS for potential approval. The power of the 'net...Just Do It!!!! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Cyber Chapter Poll Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 13:18:29 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1070 Now you've dun it! See http://prr.dsop.com/poll1/poll1.html for an online (Guest Book style) poll about your thoughts on a cyber chapter of the PRRT&HS. The poll asks for your name, e-mail address, city/state (country), general comments, and desired benefits / activities. This format allows readers to see each other's comments and also allows for printing the page for presentation to the PRRT&HS as a testament to the need for such a chapter. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bill.laird@coastalcorp.com Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:21:47 -0600 Subject: Cyber-chapter thoughts -Reply Content-Length: 1258 >>> "rboydrrs@inlink.com" 12/10/97, 10:51am wrote>>> * a "regular meeting" could be scheduled in a chat room specifically established on the "Lines Cyber" web site. I would suggest that this be formally done and scheduled, say, once a month so that tuning in is not an endless chore that one has to do all the time. I like the monthly frequency. Perhaps an e-mail notice sent out via PRR-Talk a week prior to remind members to attend and another reminder a day or two prior to the meeting with a meeting agenda. What should be done about a universally acceptable meeting time considering a membership spread out over multiple time zones. There is nothing preventing the Cyber Chapter from becomming international. Bill Laird Houston, Texas (currently in London but headed home tomorrow!) ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:02:16 EST Subject: Re: PRR T&HS cyber Chapter Content-Length: 2716 By Jove, I think we've got IT!. An interest in cyber space is what unites this group of SPFs (REmember the S is for serIous))and would serve as a knowledge, experience, technological base to insure the PRRT&HS has an online presence thee quality and content of which is comperable to "The Keystone" in print. Howver, with potential Cybers Chapter members spread from Florida to Hawaii,I think there iss still a need to organize local chapters. If the Cyber chapter is sucessful, members will probably begin gravitating to other members living near by. Since my impertinence sparked this thread, I've been contacted by three individuals living in western Ohio or Eastern Indiana who want to get together.Establishing this type of contact whould also be a mission and goal of the Cyber chapter. Ideally a successful cybeer cchapter could result in a number of new local chapters. About the name. Conside Bob Boyd's suggestion a couple of Days ago: "The 'P' Co." (I believe thatt "ThePennsylvania Co. is still an active corporation under the control off Penn Central Corp.) After all, Broad Street formed the 'P" Co. to managee its properties that extended beyond Pennsylvania and Cyber space definitely fits the bill. In the spirit of intracommunal harmony, I'd strongly suggest that any new chapters formedd use Pennsy Neutral names ala NMRA regionas. The PRRT&HS is for all of the Standard railroad of the World, fRom Sodus Pt, NY, to Sunnyside Yard,, Cape May, Cape Charles, Rosslyn., Va, Winchester, Va.,, Cumberland, Md., Wheeling, Va., Marietta, Ohio; Cincinnati, Louisville, Vincennes, Ind., St. Louis, Keokuk, Iowa (1890-1927); Peoria, Ill., (after 1927); Chicago, Muskegon, Mich., Mackinaw City, Mich.; Detoit, Sanducky, Ohio, lorain, Ohio (1913-1923); Cleveland, Ashtabula, Ohio; Erie, Pa.; and Buffalo. and alt the 20,000+ miles of track that connected them. Interests of a more specific nature such as specific subsidiaries or special intersts such as motive power, cabin cars, M-O-W should be the province of inter-chapter SIGS. I'll help wsith the brass tacks getting this thing off the ground, Hopefully, the Cyber chapter at sometime in the future will be down graded to a SIG as a network of localchapters appears. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:42:54 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Re Trains to Florida Content-Length: 1790 Harmantas, Andrew G. wrote: > _____________________ > I believe cab practice on the Pennsy was that both crew would call out > track signals, i.e.: "Clear!", and the other would answer "Clear" as a > double check for safety. This might have been done even on engines with > cab signal indicators, a kind of neat Pennsy-ish feature that made high > speed running along the NE corridor just that much safer. So, if the > crew were following procedure, they would be aware if each other were > alert. Or so it seems to me, andrew harmantas, an SPF curretnly at C&O > This is SOP for virtually ALL railroads and is frequently done by / required of all qualified employees who may be in the cab and in a position to observe signals. In practice and per rules it may vary whether signals are called by name, by color, or whatever. A few examples: PRR, 1925, 1956; B&M, 1961; Uniform Code (CN, CP, C&O, NYC, & others,, 1962, Rule 34, ".. by its name.." NYC, 1956, Rule 33, "..the indication.." Rule 33a, further specifies calling signals by color, giving the position as appropriate, as, "middle light," lower arm," etc., when other than the upper head is cleared. General Code, 1980,(BN, CNW, etc.), Rule 34 says to call signals by name or aspect (appearance). Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:49:04 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter Content-Length: 1085 Greetings to the group, I too like the idea of our group being a chapter. However, to prevent problems with the "powers that be" within the PRR T&HS, I would think that only paid up 'official' PRR T&HS members would be the only ones allowed in the chapter. This would probably need to be the case especially if one of the objective is to have some "chapter power" and getting chapter members on the board. On a positive note, I agree with the electronic newsletter. Might I suggest the file format be Acrobat PDF. The reader is free and the newsletter would look the same no matter what machine or software you have. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Jim Hudson" Subject: PRR on Delmarva (was Cyberspace Chapter of PRR-Talk) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:51:42 -0000 Content-Length: 5001 <> Now, you've done it -- you're going to get me rambling. :) In addition to answering your questions, I've included a brief history of the line as well. 1) Yes, there were passenger trains -- the most prestigious of which were the daylight Del-Mar-Va Express and the nightime Cavalier. Both trains had connections with New York. Much of the passenger business came from sailors on leave from Norfolk heading North or business/leisure travellers heading South. Passenger service was cut back to Delmar (a Salisbury suburb) in 1958, and even that was discontinued in 1965. 2) There was a great deal of bridge freight to and from the south. Outbound local traffic included lumber, peaches, strawberries, chickens, oysters, fish, crabs, milk, tomatoes, and canned foods. Inbound traffic included autos, machinery, coal, and other finished goods. 3) Twentieth century steam power was provided by Americans and Atlantics in the first two decades. Later the B6s, H9s, K4s, and L1s made up the backbone of the fleet. Early diesels were Alco RS-3s, EMD F-3s and F-7s, Baldwin Sharks, and many Baldwin switchers. The RS-3s were used extensively in both freight and passenger service. Various EMD Geeps replaced the first generation diesels in the Conrail years, and today you can see anything from a GP38 in local service to widenose SDs on coal trains. (Incidently, if you're a caboose fan, the Conrail local out of Delmar still uses one daily due to the large amount of switching. 4) Yes, the Pennsy operated both passenger steam boats and car ferries between Cape Charles and Norfolk. At one time Cape Charles was a twenty-four hour terminal with several car ferries leaving a day. Today, the Eastern Shore Railroad still operates a Cape Charles-Norfolk car ferry, but there's only one a day in each direction. 5) Here's a summary of the line's history-- please note it only covers the north-south main line -- there were also several branches and an east-west main line as well (complete with ferries to Baltimore). The Delaware Railroad was completed down to the Maryland-Delaware state line in 1859. The Delaware Railroad had been under the control of the Philadelphia, Wilmington & Baltimore since 1856 (hence PRR control in 1881). A second company, the Eastern Shore Railroad completed a road from the Delaware Railroad terminus to Salisbury in 1860, but construction further south was postponed until after the Civil War. (Incidently, as was most of the Eastern Shore, Salisbury was very pro-Southern and the Union Army used the railroad to occupy the city immediately after hostilities ensued). A third company, the New York, Philadelphia & Norfolk completed a line from the Eastern Shore RR south to Cape Charles, Virginia on August 18, 1884. That same year the NYP&N purchased the Eastern Shore Railroad and the following year began operating car ferries to Norfolk.. At this point, the PRR began to assume direct control of the lines. In 1918 the Pennsy formally leased the Delaware railroad after controlling it for several years. The PRR likewise gained a controlling interest in the NYP&N in 1906 and leased the line in 1922. At this point, the PRR was either in direct or indirect control of every rail line on the Shore. The Delmarva Division of the railroad never became one of the Pennsy's most profitable routes (it had been envisioned to become an alternative gateway to the South, bypassing the Baltimore-Washington congestion). It was, however, profitable. The entire mainline was double-tracked in the early part of the century. Due to dwindling post-war traffic, however, the second track was removed from most areas in the 1950s. So the lines continued, deteriorating (like everywhere else) during the Penn Central days due to law maintenance. When the USRA did a study in 1974 of profitable lines to include in Conrail, only the mainline as far south as Pocomoke (and a 30+ mile branch to a power-generating plant) was included in the system. South of Pocomoke the line (including the car ferry operation) is currently operated by the Eastern Shore Railroad. As a sidelight, under the NS-CSX splits, Delmarva lines go to NS -- wonder if that'll affect the car ferry? ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:53:16 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: heading home to Texas Content-Length: 547 >Bill Laird >Houston, Texas (currently in London but headed home tomorrow!) ===== What train are you taking, Bill? ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W.C. Knepper" Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:55:54 -0500 Content-Length: 2232 Dick, What you say has merit.......If it was set up as a chapter for those who are displaced away from a metropolitan area, and access to such a group........The National just might go for it. As long as it wasn't set up as an allian type group.......Another words work the issues just like a chapter does today. And not become a thorn to the National, but prove you worth to them.......And I know that the people here on PRR-Talk could do that hands down. W.C.Knepper (boxcar46@nfdc.net) ---------- > From: VVA249 > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: PRR T&HS Chapter > Date: Tuesday, December 09, 1997 6:05 PM > > OK guys - here's the "gauntlet" how about a "CYBER" Chapter? > As I recall we needed names of certain number ( 25? ) to start a Chapter > -and accept a standard "Charter" to satisfy legalities (Remember that James J > D Lynch really is a "Philadelphia Lawyer" ! ) > In the old time "real world" we also needed to take up a collection and > establish dues - to provide for mailing In this "enviroment" Chapter > "Newsletter" could be e-mailed FREE and meetings held in a "Chat Room" - then > - if anyone was so inclined they could run for President and become eligible > for the BOT Remember that i HAVE done this once or twice before > ANY INTEREST or is this just REALLY goofy ? > Dick Ross > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:28:09 -0500 Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter From: carl-vic-vogel@juno.com (Carl K Vogel) Content-Length: 1416 Dick: Please explain more about the chat room. Do we need more than Juno to participate? Are people interested? Oh...and I lessoned learned recently...always say Guys and Gals. There are women that participate in this forum. On "Big Trains", someone left out the "Gals". Well...it wasn't pretty. Thanks, Carl K.Vogel Recently Reinstated Chief Engineer Taunton & Tuckerton Railway O > As I recall we needed names of certain number ( 25? ) to start a >Chapter > > ANY INTEREST or is this just REALLY goofy ? >Dick Ross > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", >a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html >. >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:30:55 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: cyber PRR t&hs Content-Length: 1088 hi folks... this is in reference to Tom V s letter... It may be since there is such a geographical spead of folks a good idea to form some groups within the group to be of best interest to all. I guess what part would be up to the member. perhaps this could be set up similar to the way the PRR had their divisions..but with some changes to accomodate folks in places like hawaii and such (did the PRR have agencies in states out side of its territory?) also look around and see if any other rail groups have done this... if so we can profit from their past mistakes and progress... H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:13:29 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter Content-Length: 1507 VVA249 wrote: > > OK guys - here's the "gauntlet" how about a "CYBER" Chapter? > As I recall we needed names of certain number ( 25? ) to start a > Chapter > -and accept a standard "Charter" to satisfy legalities (Remember that > James J > D Lynch really is a "Philadelphia Lawyer" ! ) > In the old time "real world" we also needed to take up a > collection and > establish dues - to provide for mailing In this "enviroment" Chapter > "Newsletter" could be e-mailed FREE and meetings held in a "Chat Room" > - then > - if anyone was so inclined they could run for President and become > eligible > for the BOT Remember that i HAVE done this once or twice before > ANY INTEREST or is this just REALLY goofy ? > Dick Ross > Hi Dick! It may be a little goofy but I LIKE IT! It sure beats me trying to start an Indianpolis chapter, and Tom V. trying to start a XENIA chapter. I would lay 3-1 odds the BOT will NOT like it, but it is worth the effort. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:26:13 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter Content-Length: 1057 I want to address on item. > 2) As an official chapter, we would and should vie for the annual > meeting > - the only quaestion would be where physically to hold it! > It could be held physically at any location -- even Philadelphia, but with the expertise I have seen in this group, perhaps it could be "virtually" online at the same time with RealVideo or something similar. Good things come one step at a time. Let's start with forming then chapter. A lot of work to get it off the ground before we go for hosting a convention. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:32:50 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter Content-Length: 1401 Jerry_Britton wrote: > > The chapter could also develop a standardized module size (HO or N) > which > we could assemble and operate at national conventions. Each person who > wants to participate can model their favorite scene on the Pennsy...no > limit to locale! > > The reason I state "develop a standardized module" is that many say > the > N-track standard is to low. Also, we'd have to allow for four-track > mains, not just two. We also might want the main to run down the > center > of the [non-end] modules so that accurate structures/scenery can be > modeled on both sides of the track. > > N-scale allows more in a given space, obviously, but HO allows for > more > detailing and is more common. What do ya think? (Damned...I'm getting > excited!) I am probably the lone "O" gauge HiRailer in the group. I would say go with N scale. My wife does N scale. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:59:18 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: PRR T&HS cyber Chapter Content-Length: 3879 LINESWEST wrote: > > By Jove, I think we've got IT!. > > An interest in cyber space is what unites this group of SPFs > (REmember the S > is for serIous))and would serve as a knowledge, experience, > technological base > to insure the PRRT&HS has an online presence thee quality and content > of which > is comperable to "The Keystone" in print. YES, we can do it! > Howver, with potential Cybers Chapter members spread from Florida to > Hawaii,I think there iss still a need to organize local chapters. If > the Cyber > chapter is sucessful, members will probably begin gravitating to other > members > living near by. Most of us are not in CYBERSPACE just because of where we live. As I recall, several PRRT&HS members stated they were active in multiple chapters. If a CENTRAL INDIANA chapter forms, I would tend to remain active in the CYBER chapter. The CYBER activities can happen when it is convenient for me. I might well partiicpate in both, but I would not want to give up the CYBER. > Since my impertinence sparked this thread, I've been contacted by > three > individuals living in western Ohio or Eastern Indiana who want to get > together.Establishing this type of contact whould also be a mission > and goal > of the Cyber chapter. Ideally a successful cybeer cchapter could > result in a > number of new local chapters. SURE!! I look forward to the Madison outing! That does not mean I will stop EMAILING. > About the name. Conside Bob Boyd's suggestion a couple of Days ago: > "The 'P' > Co." (I believe thatt "ThePennsylvania Co. is still an active > corporation > under the control off Penn Central Corp.) After all, Broad Street > formed the > 'P" Co. to managee its properties that extended beyond Pennsylvania > and Cyber > space definitely fits the bill. > > In the spirit of intracommunal harmony, I'd strongly suggest that any > new > chapters formedd use Pennsy Neutral names ala NMRA regionas. The > PRRT&HS is > for all of the Standard railroad of the World, fRom Sodus Pt, NY, to > Sunnyside > Yard,, Cape May, Cape Charles, Rosslyn., Va, Winchester, Va.,, > Cumberland, > Md., Wheeling, Va., Marietta, Ohio; Cincinnati, Louisville, Vincennes, > Ind., > St. Louis, Keokuk, Iowa (1890-1927); Peoria, Ill., (after 1927); > Chicago, > Muskegon, Mich., Mackinaw City, Mich.; Detoit, Sanducky, Ohio, lorain, > Ohio > (1913-1923); Cleveland, Ashtabula, Ohio; Erie, Pa.; and Buffalo. and > alt the > 20,000+ miles of track that connected them. Our friends in Houston may not be able to fit this mold. Interest in the PRR extends beyond the old physical boundries. PRR-Texas has a nice ring, but if the Houston chapter forms they will pick their own name. I like PRR-CYBER. > Interests of a more specific nature such as specific subsidiaries or > special > intersts such as motive power, cabin cars, M-O-W should be the > province of > inter-chapter SIGS. > I'll help wsith the brass tacks getting this thing off the ground, > Hopefully, the Cyber chapter at sometime in the future will be down > graded to > a SIG as a network of localchapters appears. > > Tom V. I will not mind working with SIGs from other chapters -- provided they have an interest. My PRR interests are very broad at this time. I have so much to learn. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:02:50 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter Content-Length: 1474 Drew McGhee wrote: > > Greetings to the group, > > I too like the idea of our group being a chapter. However, to prevent > problems with the "powers that be" within the PRR T&HS, I would think > that > only paid up 'official' PRR T&HS members would be the only ones > allowed in > the chapter. This would probably need to be the case especially if one > of > the objective is to have some "chapter power" and getting chapter > members on > the board. I think everybody assumed this. It is good to have it stated and in the open. > On a positive note, I agree with the electronic newsletter. Might I > suggest > the file format be Acrobat PDF. The reader is free and the newsletter > would > look the same no matter what machine or software you have. Also a good idea. I would suggest the uet to be formed CYBER chapter buy a copy of Adobe Acrobat software for the yet to be named editor. > > Drew R. McGhee > Altoona, PA > -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:20:28 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: Cyber-chapter thoughts Content-Length: 2897 Jerry Britton wrote: > > On 12/10/97 12:28 PM, Robert A. Boyd (rboydrrs@inlink.com) wrote: > > >* set up the chat room so that GIF and text files could be displayed > or > >transferred, thus allowing show-and-tell. Jerry, whats the tech on > this? > > A "chat room" is NOT used for this. A web or ftp site is. > > > >* perhaps Jerry would be interested in transferring PRR-Talk to a > "Lines > >Cyber" function? Jerry? > > No, I'm not interested in doing this. The "proposed" cyber chapter > could > "endorse" "PRR-Talk" as its official public mailing list, if it > wishes. > This is the case with my "Conrail-Talk" list which is endorsed by the > Conrail Technical Society. > > > >* in line with that, a possible web site or FTP station should > emphasize > >data access. This would include modelers photos, historical > materials, > >show-and-tell of peoples collections, and photo tours of modern day > PRR > >sites. Just because it isn't painted DGLE doesn't mean no one will > want > >to see a photo of it! > > What you mention already exists..."Keystone Crossings", Mark's site, > other sites... Duplication is not needed; uniqueness is! What would a > cyber chapter web site that my site hasn't already at least started to > address? I don't have everything online yet that I intend to, and I > certainly am not going to stop adding. > > I can see that the need is present for such a chapter, but what are > its > benefits? Monthly (or weekly) chats, modular layout, possible > electronic > newsletter, what else? > > --------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > Progressive Information Technologies > britton@pit-magnus.com > http://www.pit-magnus.com > 1 JPEG = 1K words Jerry, as always you raise interesting questions and ideas. I LIKE what you have done with KC. I do not believe the CYBER chapter needs to reinvent things. You have offered a lot. Let us see how incorporating a chapter would leverage things. I think we can expand things a bit, but lets think it through. I can see no way PRR-CYBER DIVISION would be cut off from KC. I would want ultra strong ties. Jerry has already done much of the work! Several other web sites could also be tied in. Perhaps www.prrcyber.org (or whatever) would be a members only site. Perhaps not. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:44:52 -0500 Content-Length: 2153 Go with gage 1, live steam! An Astor K4s sure would be impressive! -----Original Message----- From: Larry P. Morgan To: Jerry_Britton Cc: PRR-Talk Date: Wednesday, December 10, 1997 10:21 PM Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter >Jerry_Britton wrote: >> >> The chapter could also develop a standardized module size (HO or N) >> which >> we could assemble and operate at national conventions. Each person who >> wants to participate can model their favorite scene on the Pennsy...no >> limit to locale! >> >> The reason I state "develop a standardized module" is that many say >> the >> N-track standard is to low. Also, we'd have to allow for four-track >> mains, not just two. We also might want the main to run down the >> center >> of the [non-end] modules so that accurate structures/scenery can be >> modeled on both sides of the track. >> >> N-scale allows more in a given space, obviously, but HO allows for >> more >> detailing and is more common. What do ya think? (Damned...I'm getting >> excited!) > >I am probably the lone "O" gauge HiRailer in the group. >I would say go with N scale. My wife does N scale. > >-- >Larry Morgan >lpmorgan@iquest.net >Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) >TCA/TTOS > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:54:48 -0600 From: Sample Subject: PRR at Madison Indiana Content-Length: 1840 Tom V. My name is Eric and I have hauted the PRR lines in Indiana for a number of years. When Larry and you visit Madison Indiana notice the short area that the railroad had to use at the bottom of the hill. I've been told by long time Madison In. residents that all trains had to be push up the hill and that during the fall of the year that the tracks on the hill became almost impassable due to wet leaves on the track. The steam engin that was first used on this hill is in the Childrens Museum at Indianapolis. My grandfather was station master at Edwinburg on the PRR line to Louisville from Indianapolis. My other grandfather worked in the shops at Logansport. While I live in Texas, close to Galveston Texas. I would enjoy talking with you about the many things that I have seen in my travels. I have some pictures of the Madison Hill when I visited the site. Also if interested check out the State Park at Madison. There was an attempt to build a down hill line through the area of the park. You can still see the tunnel that was started for this line. Park ranges should be able to help with more information about this. Ps There is a good Inn at the park if you are staying overnight at Madison. In 85 there was a good model shop about two miles East of North Madison on the street that passes the electric company building. Sincerely, Eric janeric@infocom.net ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:02:11 -0600 From: Bob Webber Subject: Re: heading home to Texas Content-Length: 635 At 04:53 PM 12/10/97 -0600, Robert A. Boyd wrote: >>Bill Laird >>Houston, Texas (currently in London but headed home tomorrow!) > >===== > >What train are you taking, Bill? > > Probably pulled by a U-Boat ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVPedro Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:30:32 EST Subject: DELMARVA Content-Length: 877 S.A. McCALL hosam, asks for info on PRR service on the DELMARVA line To answer your questions regarding trains on Delmarva. Many passanger trains went through to New York. City The Fleet leader was the Cavalier, with overnight Pullman service to Norfolk. The line did a good business with bodies out of the mortuary at the air base in DOVER. Diesel power was GE road switchers, with train phone antennas.. I have no recollection of fright mix.. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:55:26 -0500 (EST) From: Roger Kirkpatrick Subject: Re: heading home to Texas Content-Length: 1712 Isn't the tunnel reopened? Or am I missing something? Will you be in Cabin Car Class? Roger _______ S. Roger Kirkpatrick ______|_____| [ ] |___________ 927 Colegate Drive | | | | Marietta, OH 45750 | | [ ] [ ] | | | | | | Fax - 614-376-4777 |__|______________________|__| Home - 614-374-6732 O<=>O O<=>O On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Bob Webber wrote: > At 04:53 PM 12/10/97 -0600, Robert A. Boyd wrote: > >>Bill Laird > >>Houston, Texas (currently in London but headed home tomorrow!) > > > >===== > > > >What train are you taking, Bill? > > > > > Probably pulled by a U-Boat > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 11 Dec 97 08:11:00 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: heading home to Texas Content-Length: 2777 --====54545154575648545250===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" More likely, a Shark. Bob Webber wrote: >At 04:53 PM 12/10/97 -0600, Robert A. Boyd wrote: >>>Bill Laird >>>Houston, Texas (currently in London but headed home tomorrow!) >> >>===== >> >>What train are you taking, Bill? >> >> >Probably pulled by a U-Boat > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====54545154575648545250===1 Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:50:13 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: PRR-MOdular Content-Length: 5961 >The reason I state "develop a standardized module" is that many say the >N-track standard is to low. Also, we'd have to allow for four-track >mains, not just two. We also might want the main to run down the center >of the [non-end] modules so that accurate structures/scenery can be >modeled on both sides of the track. > >N-scale allows more in a given space, obviously, but HO allows for more >detailing and is more common. What do ya think? (Damned...I'm getting >excited!) Oh boy, I'm excited too. Count me in right away! I built a module base this weekend, and I'm trying to decide what to put on it - probably a line side scene on a double track portion of the Columbia and Port Deposit branch. I too vote for HO, and suggest that we consider a PRR-talk modular group asap. This could be folded into the CYBER Chapter later if that become a reality. I volunteer to inititially coordinate such an effort in HO (call me sucker!). I warn y'all, it would be an operating RR with procedures, schedules, etc instead of just running trains in circles. Lets cut to the chase - email me if you're interested. We need a forum to arrange "meets", we need standards, we need module lists. I will keep this as organized as I can with web page lists of module names, specs, contacts etc. I suggest we use a standard subject line "PRR-MOdular" for any further communications on this list. My suggested standards are: 1) 2" seperation between tracks 2) code 83 rail 3) 32-36" min radius curves 4) both rails wired - both DC and DCC control possible (I prefer DCC but...) 5) employ FREMO like standards with standard modules of 2 foot by 4 foot, BUT allow other sizes, and have a standard end profile, so that any module will fit with any other. (see http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/shipmill/inhalt.htm) 6) 2 track and 4 track main modules - tracks centered (2 track at 11" and 13", 4 track at 9",11",13" and 15" from the face board) 7) switching opportunities - sidings, yards 8) support for catenary on some modules - I have some ideas on how to interconnect modular catenary 9) Provisions for GRADES (and helper districts) 10) Set an era - 1952? steam-diesel-electrics or set multiple eras? 11) 2 and 4 track 90 degree curved modules - to be owned by the group? 12) 2 and 4 track junction modules - to be owned by the group? 13) Scenes to be from the PRR, or derived from the PRR (some freelancing allowed, but no fantasy dragons and dinosaurs!) For example, I am working on a city module, based heavily on the Wilmington DE station, but the station is not an exact model. 14) Prototypical signals - hopefully functional at some point! 15) Standard appearance of all fascia - size, material and color (DGLE or Tuscan?) - with a group logo (red or gold 4" PRR keystone?) on the module front, and module name, and PRR location information attached if appropriate. The arrangement of modules could be either a 4 track main with double track returns providing an oval within an oval (dogbone style), or a four track main in a large oval, with a double track branch forming a second oval, or an "oval" consisting of some 4 track main, which the splits into two seperate 2 track mains, which then rejoin to form 4 track main again. I favor the first, with the additional ideas the the double track segments could be greatly expanded, and that with the proper flyover junction modules the integrity of the direction of each track would be maintained. An example is shown below ____<________________ ________<________ | __>________________\ /________>_______ | || central work \\ _______________<_______________ // || || & storage space /\_______________<_______________/\ || ||__<________________/ \_______________>_______________/ \________<_______|| |___>__________________________________>__________________________>________| 2 track modules |flyover| 4 track modules |flyover|2 track modules In this arrangement, the 4 track segment might be open to the public on both sides (ie no back boards) whereas the 2 track segments would be open on one side. Operation would be from the PUBLIC side with walk around controllers (preferably radio/infrared). This would also facilitate interaction with the public and education about the PRR! For this, the group would need 2 flyovers, and 4 90 degree 2 track curves. Please note that multiple other curves could be acommodated, such as a bend in the 4 track region and other curves in the 2 track region. One track main with passing sidings could also be substituted into the 2 track region for a little extra spice!!! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** "Illegitimi non Carborundum!" _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:49:34 EST Subject: Re: Cyberspace Chapter of PRR-Talk Content-Length: 1382 In a message dated 97-12-11 04:23:44 EST, hosam@gc.net writes: << Now on a serious note, can anyone come forth with information on the operation on the PRR line on the Eastern Shore from Philadelphia to Cape Charles. THERE IS A BOOK ABOUT RAILROADS ON THE DELMARVA PENINSULA, NAME ESCAPES ME. THERE HAS ALSO BEEN A GOOD DEAL OF INFO IN THE KEYSTONE OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS. Were there any passenger trains? YES What type freight was carried? ALL KINDS, THIS WAS A BRIDGE LINE TO THE SOUTH AS WELL AS GENERATING LOCAL TRAFFIC. FOR EXAMPLE, THERE'S A BIG GENERAL FOODS PLANT IN DOVER, DE. SEE THE CT1000E ON KEYSTONE CROSSINGS FOR A LIST OF INDUSTRIES SERVED IN 1945. What type diesels were used? Did the PRR own or operate any ferries at Cape Charles? YES--UNPOWERED FLOATS (BARGES) PULLED BY TUG BOATS. ALSO STEAMERS. JOHN KEEL - sorry for the caps, but I used that to distinguish my answers from his questions. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: Delmarva Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:05:49 -0600 Content-Length: 1143 In a message dated 97-12-11 04:23:44 EST, hosam@gc.net writes: << Now on a serious note, can anyone come forth with information on the operation on the PRR line on the Eastern Shore from Philadelphia to Cape Charles. There was a very good article on Delmarva peninsula in a Trains magazine article in postwar era. Once again I will have to look it up at home,but it discussed L1's and K4s on the main, with G5 and I believe the last operations of the D16 (! :-)), with mixed train operations on the branches. 660hp Baldwins working the carferry slips. This is one operation, in addition to the Sunbury area milk runs, which this Lines West guy has been tempted to model. Regards Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:14:38 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: PRR-MOdular Content-Length: 810 Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. wrote: > > I too vote for HO, and suggest that we consider a PRR-talk modular group > asap. This could be folded into the CYBER Chapter later if that become a > reality. > Perhaps we could look into the creation of a Cyber-Model Railroad; we could operate it during meetings, assigning different job positions to various members. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: hazmats in the GG 1s (fwd) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:41:34 EST Content-Length: 1187 > >>I love the GG1's but the fly in the ointment is who would > >>want to deal with the hazmat of a 60 year old locomotive > >>and also who would want to supply 11,000 volt- 25 Hertz > >>electrical catenary? > >(Hazmat, I wonder what was in those GG1 transformers?) > >Harry W. Fitch Harry, yes indeed, the cooland of the GG1 transformers was (not contained; _was_) a polychlorinated biphenyl, i.e., a PCB. Getting rid of it was less of a problem. More of a problem (IMHO) is the prohibitive cost of re-transformerizing the GG1s to actually _run_. :-( As to 11kV 25 Hz, you can rest assured that it's _still_ being supplied. Not hard to do either primarily, or with frequency converters. At the time, was easier to design for. -- Mark D. Bej ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Lines West/modeling activities (fwd) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:01:53 EST Content-Length: 1455 > * any hobby organization will have a small percentage who do all the work, > who have always done all the work, and who will always be doing all the > work. Unfortunate but true. > Perhaps we should go a year or two before trying to hold any sort of "Lines > West" convention, and the early efforts there might be in the form of a > series of chapter meets. At least. The Pittsburgh convention had considerable Lines West material for those attending. There _was_ a Lake chapter (named after the Lake Division PRR) at one time but dissolved. It would not be difficult to create a Lines West chapter. I know of 4-5 potential members in the Cleveland area (we'll even let that PC-lover Jerry Jordak join! :-))) ), and there must be more between here and Cincinnati. I'd even be willing to have meetings alternately in Cleveland, Cinci, and Chicago. A chapter would have to exist and be well organized to be able to pull off a convention. This is NOT trivial work. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: New Keystone Is Out (fwd) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:08:34 EST Content-Length: 1330 > > Last time we had this thread, I asked a question which I'll repeat: > > When I first joined PRRT&HS (1985), there were chapters in > > Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Detroit, and Chicago. What happened > > to them? Why not try to join one (resurrecting it if necessary)? > > I realize that, unless you live in or near one of these cities, attendance > > at a chapter meeting could mean a full weekend away-from-home > > trip. But I would very much like to see active chapters, even if > > they have only a handful of members, on Lines West. > > Pittsburgh Chapter is still active, though I have not yet joined; I > believe they meet monthly in Monroeville. Correct. Someone else asked why the Pittsburgh Chapter is such a secret. Only because no one thought of, or no one volunteered, to print up a bunch of flyers and post them at railfanning locations to draw new people in. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: hazmats in the GG 1s (fwd) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:29:59 EST Content-Length: 2219 > I don't know exactly what was done for the GG-1's, but I suspect the > PCB-containing transformer cooling fluid had to be drained and replaced with > something considered less carcinogenic by the EPA, or drained and NOT > replaced. My recollection is that PCBs are _not_ carcinogenic per se. (carcinogenic = produce[s] cancer). However, they clearly _are_ teratogenic, i.e., they produce birth defects. PCBs are highly nonpolar, thereby lipid-soluble (dissolve in fat). Animals have fat in specified places, particularly fish, which have a lot of oil. Bigger fish eat smaller fish and digest the fat. The fat gets burned off during normal metabolism, swimming and all, but the PCBs are horrendously stable compounds -- they just collect and remain in the fat. Certain birds eat those fish and collect more and more PCBs in _their_ fat. And so on and so on. Finally we humans eat those largest fish (it's inefficient to catch and eat small stuff, you know) and get large doses collected over time. The primary damage is to nervous tissue: brain, spinal cord, and nerves, as these structures use this stuff called myelin as an insulator. Myelin is a fat, basically. At any rate, I did do a MedLine search on PCBs but came up with 500 papers in the last 5 years alone, and there's no way in H that I'm about to scan _that_ list! > I understand that the Paoli MU maintenance shop was declared a > 'Superfund' site, due to the contamination of the ground from so much > PCB-containing transformer fluid dumped/leaked from the MU cars. Exactly. BTW, asbestos _is_ carcinogenic. It causes a cancer called a mesothelioma in the pleural lining of the lung. -- Mark D. Bej, M.D. bejm@eeg.ccf.org (who finally gets to use his degree on this list) ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 08:54:40 -1000 From: "Eric J. Minton" Subject: Re: hazmats in the GG 1s (fwd) Content-Length: 2905 Aloha, How about using new technology to build NEW GG-1's using the designs that worked so well, remember they saw 100+ service speeds for almost 50 years. Eric At 01:29 PM 12/11/97 EST, you wrote: >> I don't know exactly what was done for the GG-1's, but I suspect the >> PCB-containing transformer cooling fluid had to be drained and replaced with >> something considered less carcinogenic by the EPA, or drained and NOT >> replaced. > >My recollection is that PCBs are _not_ carcinogenic per se. (carcinogenic >= produce[s] cancer). However, they clearly _are_ teratogenic, i.e., they >produce birth defects. > >PCBs are highly nonpolar, thereby lipid-soluble (dissolve in fat). Animals >have fat in specified places, particularly fish, which have a lot of oil. >Bigger fish eat smaller fish and digest the fat. The fat gets burned off >during normal metabolism, swimming and all, but the PCBs are horrendously >stable compounds -- they just collect and remain in the fat. Certain birds >eat those fish and collect more and more PCBs in _their_ fat. And so on >and so on. Finally we humans eat those largest fish (it's inefficient >to catch and eat small stuff, you know) and get large doses collected over >time. > >The primary damage is to nervous tissue: brain, spinal cord, and nerves, as >these structures use this stuff called myelin as an insulator. Myelin is >a fat, basically. > >At any rate, I did do a MedLine search on PCBs but came up with 500 papers >in the last 5 years alone, and there's no way in H that I'm about to scan >_that_ list! > >> I understand that the Paoli MU maintenance shop was declared a >> 'Superfund' site, due to the contamination of the ground from so much >> PCB-containing transformer fluid dumped/leaked from the MU cars. > >Exactly. > >BTW, asbestos _is_ carcinogenic. It causes a cancer called a mesothelioma >in the pleural lining of the lung. > >-- >Mark D. Bej, M.D. >bejm@eeg.ccf.org > >(who finally gets to use his degree on this list) > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Proposed PRRT&HS Cyber Chapter Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 14:55:24 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1491 Judging from the comments already left on the poll (http://prr.dsop.com/poll1/poll1.html) there is adequate interest in a "cyber" chapter of the PRRT&HS to at least look into the actual logistics of establishment. Anyone care to volunteer as point person? IMHO, it should be someone who has been a member of the PRRT&HS for several years...for political reasons. That leaves me out, as 1997 was my first year. As for benefits, I am surprised to see how popular the "chat room" concept is. As for the newsletter, my concern was content that didn't duplicate that of "The Keystone" or what's on "Keystone Crossings". Perhaps our niche would be modeling. Since the PRRT&HS itself does not promote it, it could be our "in" to get a lot more members...even those not online once word gets out. BTW, the domain "spf.com" is taken; "spfonline.com" is available. --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:58:06 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: RE: GG-1 hazmats Content-Length: 1011 Mark Bej says: >At any rate, I did do a MedLine search on PCBs but came up with 500 papers >in the last 5 years alone, and there's no way in H that I'm about to scan >_that_ list! ===== Well, Gee, Mark- you ought to include them on your site. It would make a great "in depth" report on the GG 1s! Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:03:15 EST Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter Content-Length: 2069 In a message dated 97-12-11 07:03:25 EST, you write: << Also, we'd have to allow for four-track >> mains, not just two. We also might want the main to run down the >> center >> of the [non-end] modules so that accurate structures/scenery can be >> modeled on both sides of the track. >> >> N-scale allows more in a given space, obviously, but HO allows for >> more >> detailing and is more common. What do ya think? (Damned...I'm getting >> excited!) >> Aw, DURN YER GETTIN THE LINES WESTERNER IN me all riled up. Four-tracked mains for part, not all of the layout as such monster routes were mighty damn scarce west of Pittsburgh. Out here double-tracked mains were the rule and singlle-tracked mainlines were pretty common : Toledo Dvision for the entire length, Cincinnati Division between Xeia and Cincinati, and Cincinati & Richmond, and Xenia-Dayton-Richmond and many other locations. Demonstraitng that Modling the PRR does not require stringing catenary or buying limestone arch bridges by C.C. Crow orother kit of pcomemsureate price and qualllity could/ be a way to boost membership of the National PRRT&HS. And if all we have is four-tracked mains, then we won't be able to run T1s, the S1 or thje Q class because other tight curvesn found in Pittsburhgh and points east becauseof those damned tight curves. Remember, the Pennsylvania was pretty diverse despite its registered tradmark, "The Standard Railroa of the World.). We all have differing memories of what the Pennsylvania. however, the Pennsylvania was so bid that nearly al forms of railroading could be found . Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:04:47 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: speaking of the Pgh. Chapter.... Content-Length: 809 I noticed this week (yesterday) in the local community "weekly" paper my parents get, the "Progress", there was a writeup on the PRRT&HS, where the writer talked with our very own Carl Izzo; There was also a shot of him presumably with his layout(?). I'll see if I can get any copies of the article since we usually have spare copies of that paper around if anyone wants one. -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 11 Dec 97 14:16:53 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: PRR on Delmarva Content-Length: 12752 --====53565257544850575357===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Was it during the Conrail formation that N&W broached the plan to take over the Delmarva lines for access to Philadelphia? They probably dropped it, after seeing the condition of the line. -- Doug Drew W. Jim Hudson wrote: ><the Eastern Shore from Philadelphia to Cape Charles. Were there any >passenger trains? What type freight was carried? What type diesels were >used? Did the PRR own or operate any ferries at Cape Charles?>> > >Now, you've done it -- you're going to get me rambling. :) In addition to >answering your questions, I've included a brief history of the line as well. > >1) Yes, there were passenger trains -- the most prestigious of which were >the daylight Del-Mar-Va Express and the nightime Cavalier. Both trains had >connections with New York. Much of the passenger business came from sailors >on leave from Norfolk heading North or business/leisure travellers heading >South. Passenger service was cut back to Delmar (a Salisbury suburb) in >1958, and even that was discontinued in 1965. > >2) There was a great deal of bridge freight to and from the south. Outbound >local traffic included lumber, peaches, strawberries, chickens, oysters, >fish, crabs, milk, tomatoes, and canned foods. Inbound traffic included >autos, machinery, coal, and other finished goods. > >3) Twentieth century steam power was provided by Americans and Atlantics in >the first two decades. Later the B6s, H9s, K4s, and L1s made up the >backbone of the fleet. Early diesels were Alco RS-3s, EMD F-3s and F-7s, >Baldwin Sharks, and many Baldwin switchers. The RS-3s were used extensively >in both freight and passenger service. Various EMD Geeps replaced the first >generation diesels in the Conrail years, and today you can see anything from >a GP38 in local service to widenose SDs on coal trains. (Incidently, if >you're a caboose fan, the Conrail local out of Delmar still uses one daily >due to the large amount of switching. > >4) Yes, the Pennsy operated both passenger steam boats and car ferries >between Cape Charles and Norfolk. At one time Cape Charles was a >twenty-four hour terminal with several car ferries leaving a day. Today, >the Eastern Shore Railroad still operates a Cape Charles-Norfolk car ferry, >but there's only one a day in each direction. > >5) Here's a summary of the line's history-- please note it only covers the >north-south main line -- there were also several branches and an east-west >main line as well (complete with ferries to Baltimore). The Delaware >Railroad was completed down to the Maryland-Delaware state line in 1859. >The Delaware Railroad had been under the control of the Philadelphia, >Wilmington & Baltimore since 1856 (hence PRR control in 1881). > >A second company, the Eastern Shore Railroad completed a road from the >Delaware Railroad terminus to Salisbury in 1860, but construction further >south was postponed until after the Civil War. (Incidently, as was most of >the Eastern Shore, Salisbury was very pro-Southern and the Union Army used >the railroad to occupy the city immediately after hostilities ensued). > >A third company, the New York, Philadelphia & Norfolk completed a line from >the Eastern Shore RR south to Cape Charles, Virginia on August 18, 1884. >That same year the NYP&N purchased the Eastern Shore Railroad and the >following year began operating car ferries to Norfolk.. > >At this point, the PRR began to assume direct control of the lines. In 1918 >the Pennsy formally leased the Delaware railroad after controlling it for >several years. The PRR likewise gained a controlling interest in the NYP&N >in 1906 and leased the line in 1922. At this point, the PRR was either in >direct or indirect control of every rail line on the Shore. > >The Delmarva Division of the railroad never became one of the Pennsy's most >profitable routes (it had been envisioned to become an alternative gateway >to the South, bypassing the Baltimore-Washington congestion). It was, >however, profitable. The entire mainline was double-tracked in the early >part of the century. Due to dwindling post-war traffic, however, the second >track was removed from most areas in the 1950s. > >So the lines continued, deteriorating (like everywhere else) during the Penn >Central days due to law maintenance. When the USRA did a study in 1974 of >profitable lines to include in Conrail, only the mainline as far south as >Pocomoke (and a 30+ mile branch to a power-generating plant) was included in >the system. South of Pocomoke the line (including the car ferry operation) >is currently operated by the Eastern Shore Railroad. > >As a sidelight, under the NS-CSX splits, Delmarva lines go to NS -- wonder >if that'll affect the car ferry? > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====53565257544850575357===1 Subject: Arrangement of Passenger Cars in a Consist Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 15:17:59 -0400 From: Jerry_Britton Content-Length: 1082 Was there a standard way of arranging passenger cars within a consist in terms of which side the corridor side would be on? For instance, is the corridor always on the left side when you are walking forward? I know certain cars get turned at ends of a route, like observations. I also know that the NYC run from New York to Boston had no cars turned so that the bedroom windows always faced the ocean. We corridors always kept on one side, or was it random? --------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Jim Hudson" Subject: Re: PRR on Delmarva Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:47:01 -0000 Content-Length: 1391 Doug Drew wrote: <> The N&W, SCL, & Southern all applied to purchase the main line. It was actually the Southern that came closest to taking over the Pennsy Delmarva Lines for Philly access... The Southern REALLY wanted the lines, and the federal gov't approved the plan to sell the lines to them. They even agreed to preserve service on the non-profitable branches to get the deal approved. It fell through, however, when the operating unions refused to negotiate because they thought they'd get a better deal under government operation & Conrail. It's a pity -- the Southern might have made a better go of it. Not that I'm really complaining too much, though. Conrail did an admirable job with its resources, and traffic IS above the Penn Central years. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:52:19 EST Subject: On Ebay now: Baldwin 2,400hp Center Cab Transfer Content-Length: 1321 There's a Baldwin center cab 2,400 hp transfer diesel on sale on ebay. current askihng bid price in $102.50 (2:47 p.m. EST 12/11/97) I just looked this un it up in "The Diesel Builders, Volume Three: The Baldwin Locomtovie Works" This is a model of one of eight 2,400 hp RT-624s made by BLW between Oct. 12 and Nov. 30, `1951,given PRR road numbers 8958-8965. Each of these eight units was equipped with m.u. control, trainfone inductive "radio" system, two-station control, dynamic brakes, automattic train control. They were stationed at Conemaugh, Shire Oaks, and Johnstown, all in Pennsylvania. No information available onwhich units assigned where. I'm going to pass on this one. If I'm going to spend thsi kinda money, I'm going to make sure the model I buy was used by the PRR in western Ohiol, mainly Lima-Hamilton 2,500-h.p. transfer locos. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: PRR T&HS Chapter (fwd) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:43:09 EST Content-Length: 1742 > OK guys - here's the "gauntlet" how about a "CYBER" Chapter? > As I recall we needed names of certain number ( 25? ) to start a Chapter > -and accept a standard "Charter" to satisfy legalities (Remember that James J > D Lynch really is a "Philadelphia Lawyer" ! ) > In the old time "real world" we also needed to take up a collection and > establish dues - to provide for mailing In this "enviroment" Chapter > "Newsletter" could be e-mailed FREE and meetings held in a "Chat Room" - then > - if anyone was so inclined they could run for President and become eligible > for the BOT Remember that i HAVE done this once or twice before > ANY INTEREST or is this just REALLY goofy ? > Dick Ross I think forming a "Cyber Chapter, PRRT&HS" would be a _wonderful_ idea. Since Jerry has his own machine (I don't), we could collect some piddling amount, say $5 apiece, for memberships that would support the portion of upkeep of his machine that we actually use. The bylaws should state that _nothing_ is done on paper, save perhaps the bylaws and maybe a 'summary' of formal news and other newsletter stuff, to those that want to join but don't have a computer. Having a membership and reading reports at the society general meeting would blow some of these guys away! -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bill.laird@coastalcorp.com Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:14:01 -0600 Subject: heading home to Texas -Reply Content-Length: 1115 >>> "rboydrrs@inlink.com" 12/10/97, 05:26pm >>> >>Bill Laird >>Houston, Texas (currently in London but headed home tomorrow!) ===== >What train are you taking, Bill? ===== The Gatwick Expresss, non-stop from Victoria Station to Gatwick Airport. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter (fwd) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:20:02 EST Content-Length: 1286 > I too like the idea of our group being a chapter. However, to prevent > problems with the "powers that be" within the PRR T&HS, I would think that > only paid up 'official' PRR T&HS members would be the only ones allowed in > the chapter. This would probably need to be the case especially if one of > the objective is to have some "chapter power" and getting chapter members on > the board. We'd have to do this, methinks. > On a positive note, I agree with the electronic newsletter. Might I suggest > the file format be Acrobat PDF. The reader is free and the newsletter would > look the same no matter what machine or software you have. Might I suggest not? I don't like "corporate" solutions to things, no matter how "open" they may be. I would much prefer HTML, which is _not_ owned by a company and is free to all forever. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:40:54 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: PRR on the Eastern Shore Content-Length: 2321 Greetings, Have done some research today, with some books I have and a friend who models the PRR. Here is some of what I have discovered about diesel engine assignments on the Eastern Shore or the Chesapeake Region. The engines were stationed in Wilmington, Delaware. Alco RS1 #5906 built 1948 PRR class AS-10s. This engine had steam generators but no trainphone. Alco Rs3 #8443 & #8444 built 1953 PRR class AS-16ms. These engines had steam generators, were MU equipped but had no trainphones. Alco RS3 #8473 & #8474 built 1952 Prr class As-16ms. Both engines had steam generators, were Mu equipped but only #8474 had a trainphone. Alco RS3 #8476,#8477 & #8478 built 1952 PRR class AS-16ms. All had steam generators & Mu equipment. #8476 ℝ han trainphones, #8478 did not. Alco RS3 #8595 built 1955 PRR class AS-16m. This engine had dynamic brakes and trainphones but no steam generator. Was reassigned to the Pittsburgh District in 1960. All the above engines were in service at the time of the merger and were transferred to PC. No Alco Rs11's were assigned to the Chesapeake region. There were 5 RSD5's assigned to the Chesapeake Region but were used in switching service in Wilmington and Baltimore. All were transferred to PC. All these units were painted Brunswick Green(DGLE) wuth Pennsylvania spelled out on the long hoods, road numbers on cab below the window. All were renumbered in 1966 but only a few were repainted and given a Keystone on the long hood. There were a group of Baldwin Switchers used around Cape Charles moving the cars onto and off of the ferryboats. As soon as I get the research done I'll post this data. A quick look at a timetable revealed 3 passenger trains daily and 3 passenger trains at night. More on them later......... Sincerely, S.A. McCall HOSAM Franklin, Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:06:42 -0500 From: bobsin@nac.net Subject: Re: hazmats in the GG 1s Content-Length: 755 It's been noted that Paoli has a Superfund site due to PCB contamination. Last time I had my eyes open, the yard at South Amboy where GG1s used to sit (the engine change point and end of electrification on the NY&LB) was fenced off and placarded as a contaminated area. Probably the same problem(s) as Paoli. John Bobsin ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 20:13:29 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: new GG-1s?! Content-Length: 2515 And Eric Minton asks: >How about using new technology to build NEW GG-1's using the designs that >worked so well, remember they saw 100+ service speeds for almost 50 years. ======= That's a genuine warm and fuzzy, but sad fact is, the GG-1 concept is obsolete. Some specifics: * the 2-C+C-2 wheel arrangement was Baldwins clinging to steam era thinking. The concept was that an articulated frame would ride more smoothly than the rigid frame of the 2-D-2 R1- which turned out to be true. The only comparable technology at the time in swivel trucks were adaptations of trolley car trucks on some of the gas railcars and small switchers: not really suitable for the heavy power of a main line electric without massive reengineering. Today, of course, that engineering has been done and B-B and C-C units in the 6000 hp range are in production, which makes the ponderous frame of the GG-1 obsolete. * the curved carbody design would be very expensive: building compound curves into heavy steel sheet is time consuming and tricky. Note that the locomotive builders today use flat surfaces or single axis curves. * the traditional scissors pantagraph was a maintanance nightmare: any new electrics today would certainly be fitted with the single arm pans. Finally, with 6000 HP units available and with 110 mph + units available, it would only be a minor matter to put the two together to create an equivalent to a GG-1 in a swivel truck diesel: say a dash- whatever with larger wheels and gearing for 110+ mph. Hate to say it, but it ain't gonna happen. Here is something for the cyber-chapter to consider: howzabout restoring a GG-1 and making arrangements to have some running track somewhere in the midwest? Maybe the G-motors will reach Chicago after all! Robert A. Boyd Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-Long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking." ========================================================== "The Limited" On Line - http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The Glorious Age Of Railroad Passenger Service ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:07:24 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Subject: Re: PRR on Delmarva Content-Length: 903 At 10:51 PM 12/10/97 -0000, W. Jim Hudson wrote: >As a sidelight, under the NS-CSX splits, Delmarva lines go to NS -- wonder >if that'll affect the car ferry? That all depends on who owns the other end of the ferry run and how friendly they are. As I understand things, CSX is on the north side of the James River, and NS on the south. Since the other end of the ferry used to be a little west of Norfolk on the Chesapeake Bay, that means a CSX connection. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 02:12:41 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: new GG-1s?! Content-Length: 824 On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Robert A. Boyd wrote: [snip] > > Here is something for the cyber-chapter to consider: howzabout restoring a > GG-1 and making arrangements to have some running track somewhere in the > midwest? Maybe the G-motors will reach Chicago after all! Doesn't the Illinois Railway Museum (i think in union, IL), the place withthe Electroliner, have an operable GG-1? -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR T&HS Chapter (fwd) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 97 08:50:59 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1249 On 12/11/97 5:43 PM, Mark D Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote: >Since Jerry has his own machine (I don't), we could collect some piddling >amount, say $5 apiece, for memberships that would support the portion of >upkeep of his machine that we actually use. I would not have asked for money, but... My machine hosts my domain and two others. Any "income" from a cyber chapter could be used to increase bandwidth. If such a financial arrangement developed, I would be willing to not sell any additional non-railroad-related hosting services. All I want to do is break even and propogate the PRR!!! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard F. Makse" Subject: Re: Arrangement of Passenger Cars in a Consist Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:25:11 -0500 Content-Length: 1253 Jerry wrote: >Was there a standard way of arranging passenger cars within a consist in >terms of which side the corridor side would be on? > >For instance, is the corridor always on the left side when you are >walking forward? > Far more pragmatic than aesthetic. Servicing the consist was a big consideration so that, for example, the Broadway would normally be serviced on track x in Sunnyside and track Y in Chicago to give easier access for commissary, watering, underbody equipment (back in 'standard' days, loading blocks of ice in ice-activated AC systems was a major consideration--even into the 50's when ice-activated parlor cars were still on the New York-Washington ML). Where trains yarded was not random--a concept that both the NYC and NYNY&H also understood. Richard F. Makse maxrail@att.net ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: Arrangement of Passenger Cars in a Consist From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 97 08:34:41 -0500 Content-Length: 1465 Jerry asked: >Was there a standard way of arranging passenger cars within a consist in >terms of which side the corridor side would be on? > >For instance, is the corridor always on the left side when you are >walking forward? > >I know certain cars get turned at ends of a route, like observations. I >also know that the NYC run from New York to Boston had no cars turned so >that the bedroom windows always faced the ocean. > >We corridors always kept on one side, or was it random? > >--------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF - ------- The roomettes ruled! They were built to face one way, and the RR would try to keep them facing forward - when they cared. Different RRs had cars designed differently and therefore ther is no "rule" as to whether the corridor is oin one side or the other. The other consideration is the vestibule. If the end cars had there vestibules toward the center of the train, then a shorter platform could be used. regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:49:21 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Arrangement of Passenger Cars in a Consist Content-Length: 2073 Jerry_Britton wrote: > > Was there a standard way of arranging passenger cars within a consist in > terms of which side the corridor side would be on? > > For instance, is the corridor always on the left side when you are > walking forward? > > I know certain cars get turned at ends of a route, like observations. I > also know that the NYC run from New York to Boston had no cars turned so > that the bedroom windows always faced the ocean. > > We corridors always kept on one side, or was it random? > Jerry, The New York Central kept the room side of one-sided sleepers facing the Hudson River, at least on the Century. In general, corridor location was not a concern. Incidental to the above, lengthwise Pullman berths were always made down (their terminology) (not "up") with the berth's head toward the front of the train. Crosswise berths were, I think, made down with the head to the outside of the car. Roomette berths were made down with the head at the hinge end of the berth. Even more incidental to the above, generally speaking, when the railroads worried about those little details, dining cars always ran with the kitchen to the rear. This continued into diesel years, wherever facilities existed for the turning of cars. Obviously, turntables might have been used to turn cars if they were long enough, and if they were reasonably near the car service areas and not too busy handling locomotives. B&A trains turned in Boston were often deadheaded behind a commuter train out the Highland Branch, around the Riverside Loop, and back into Boston on the Main Line. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 12 Dec 97 09:17:50 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: Arrangement of Passenger Cars in a Consist Content-Length: 5269 --====57495556485149575755===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" I think you mean NEW HAVEN's run from NYC to Boston along the shore. The Central went there via Albany, with no ocean view. The Central, I'm told, arranged their trains so that the bedroom windows of the Pullmans faced west/south toward the Hudson and Mohawk rivers, as their main was on the east and north shores, respectively, of these scenic rivers. PRR may have had theirs arranged to face north on east-west trains, as it ran on the south bank of the scenic Juniata for most if not all of that river's length. But I have no proof of that... In the latter days of the PRR, I doubt they cared on which side the corridor lay. Jerry_Britton wrote: >Was there a standard way of arranging passenger cars within a consist in >terms of which side the corridor side would be on? > >For instance, is the corridor always on the left side when you are >walking forward? > >I know certain cars get turned at ends of a route, like observations. I >also know that the NYC run from New York to Boston had no cars turned so >that the bedroom windows always faced the ocean. > >We corridors always kept on one side, or was it random? > >--------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@dsop.com >Visit "Keystone Crossings" at http://prr.dsop.com >Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====57495556485149575755===1 From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: PRR on Delmarva Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:38:28 -0500 Content-Length: 1397 > As I understand things, CSX is on the north side of the James >River, and NS on the south. Since the other end of the ferry used to be a >little west of Norfolk on the Chesapeake Bay, that means a CSX connection. _________________ The present railroad car ferry slip is operated by a short/bridge line, not the CSX, and is located EAST of Norfolk at Little Creek (Norfolk is not on the ocean, but is inland a few miles). I am not certain who owns what, but I don't think CSX is a factor in the float operation. CSX is on the north side of the James River, but there is no connection to the float terminal, which is across Hampton Roads (the body of water where the Elizabeth and James Rivers meet the Chesapeake Bay, forming the the largest natural inland deep water harbour in the world). So, if NS takes over the DelMarVa line, it would be NS connection at both ends of the ferry ride, or so it seems to me, andrew harmantas, an SPF from way back. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:38:43 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: PRR at Madison Indiana Content-Length: 2236 Sample wrote: > > Tom V. > > My name is Eric and I have hauted the PRR lines in Indiana for a > number of years. When Larry and you visit Madison Indiana notice the > short area that the railroad had