Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 00:08:40 -0500 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: E7s in Brunswick Green Content-Length: 1753 Drye, John wrote: > > Who is the manufacturer of the upcoming E7s? What scale? (As an > N-Scaler, I'm used to assuming HO in lieu of specific information to > the contrary, but I'm always optimistic ) > I didn't even notice that the post on rec.models.railroad left out the gauge. I just assumed HO. I checked the hobby shop's website and got the following info: >PROTO-2000 - HO >Proto-2000 has announced the road names for the fourth run of the E-7A >and E-7B >locomotives. As far as quantities, we quote from the Life-Like release >letter. "Due to >component availability these locomotives will be even more ‘limited’ >run than normal". >We will offer a 20% discount for models ordered by November 19th. >Please E-MAIL for >complete details. A deposit IS required to obtain the discount. > > E-7A Powered Locomotives > ... > PRR (#5841A & #5848A) - Brunswick Green w/5 Stripes > ... >E-7B Dummy Locomotive > ... > PRR (#5844B & #5853B) - Brunswick Green w/5 Stripes > ... >Delivery is scheduled for February. Prices will be $90.00 per E-7A and >$45.00 per E-7B. This is from the 'Railroad Telegraph' just posted at http://www.walston1.com/trains which Jerry Britton has been reproducing on Keystone Crossings. BTW, P2K is short for Life Like's Proto 2000 line. -- Jerry Shickler e-mail: geshick@velocity.net ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 01:07:36 -0500 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: E7s in Brunswick Green Content-Length: 724 Roger Elliott wrote: > > Hello John and others,I'm also an N-thusiast. I would like to verify if > E7's were ever painted in PRR Green (or Brunswick or DGLE, etc.). > ... Yes. They were delived in that scheme. Passenger diesels on PRR were painted tuscan beginning in August of '52. -- Jerry Shickler e-mail: geshick@velocity.net ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:17:48 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Ok Tom, you win Content-Length: 1684 Hello All, A brief note on doings at "The Limited" web site: Just wanted to say that, having received an impassioned endorsement of Lines West from Tom Vondroska, I have come around to his point of view: or to be more precise, the volume of material I have received from PRR folks has pushed the download size of "The Race To Chicago" to unwieldy proportions. So I have broken the page up into three sub-pages: Page 1: PRR (of course) Page 2: NYC Page 3: B&O - Erie Lackawanna. It also looks like the PRR will have a page all to itself on "The Eastern Corridor" as well. However, don't think that there is no room for contributing researchers! The route topics are in good shape, but there is still plenty of material needed for the individual trains. Also: thanks to all who have dropped by the site. NOTE: we finally whipped the problem with the Public Opinion Poll. If you had given us a POLL early on, the results were lost (evidently configuring a new web site involves a lot of prodding and poking to get it just so). So if you had sent in a POLL, I hope you will do so again. Well, no rest for the wicked. 39 pages up, only 24 to go before 1/1/98! (sigh) Until next, Bob Those Classic Trains "The Limited" http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 21:46:03 -0500 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Badger ModelFlex Pennsy colors Content-Length: 790 I was looking at the colors for Badger's ModelFlex paints, and I saw the following which could be appropriate for PRR: 16-13 Dark Tuscan Oxide Red 16-14 Light Tuscan Oxide Red 16-15 Maroon Tuscan Oxide Red 16-16 Brunswick Green 16-21 Pennsy Green 16-22 Pennsy Maroon Does anyone know which would be proper for Pennsy Tuscan & DGLE? Thanks! -- Jerry Shickler e-mail: geshick@velocity.net ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 14:57:46 -0500 (EST) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: Badger ModelFlex Pennsy colors Content-Length: 801 In a message dated 97-11-01 21:47:15 EST, you write: << 16-13 Dark Tuscan Oxide Red post 1952 cars should be browner 16-14 Light Tuscan Oxide Red Freigth cars prior to 1952 16-15 Maroon Tuscan Oxide Red close to marine (tug boats) equipment 16-16 Brunswick Green DGLE 16-21 Pennsy Green inteior of locomotive cabs --steam 16-22 Pennsy Maroon Fleet of Modernism window band >> Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: right of way From: rangertaz@juno.com Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 15:43:50 EST Content-Length: 569 Does anyone know the right of way property line between the rail road and the Brick Yard at Cobern? I've heard they now are arresting rail fans for trespassing. Thanks, Ranger ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 15:51:10 -0500 (EST) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: E7s in Brunswick Green Content-Length: 964 In a message dated 97-11-01 00:39:56 EST, relliott@mail.telis.org writes: << Hello John and others,I'm also an N-thusiast. I would like to verify if E7's were ever painted in PRR Green (or Brunswick or DGLE, etc.). While I'm thinking of it, where can I get plans or drawings of the Steam Turbine S-2? I have photos and an HO model in brass, but I'd like to find the plans/dimensions, etc. Thanks, Roger Elliott >> Roger: The E-7 and E-8 locomotives were delivered in DGLE 5 stripe. The change to Tuscan 5 stripe began in the summer of 1952. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 21:28:48 -0500 (EST) From: JDPanza@aol.com Subject: Re: right of way Content-Length: 635 I believe Ranger is refering to the "Brick Yard" crossing on the former PRR west of Altoona. I also believe it is in Logan Township. Any of the Altoona subscribers know anything about railfans being run off this area even if they stay off the tracks? ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Duplicates Query 11/3/97 Date: Mon, 3 Nov 97 10:32:28 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1604 I no longer need "detailed" reports of whether or not duplicates are getting out. That, is, I don't need to know whose message duplicated, how many times you got it, what times, etc. However, due to some "timing-related" settings changes made recently, I do welcome alerts as to whether or not you are still receiving dupes. The latest changes were made last evening, Nov. 2. A good test is whether or not you receive multiples of this message. As previously stated, we now know what is causing it. I believe that, in all cases, it involves subscribers where there are multiple subscribers at the same domain. AOL.COM is most heavily affected. A side note: Jerry Jordak's address is causing come problem. His e-mail domain is "SMELLYCAT.COM" but seems to be hosted at "PROZAC.xxx.EDU" (I forget the middle off hand). His server is accepting a connection but refusing the mail. Does anyone know if he has changed addresses or not? It does but added "stress" on the server to keep trying. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: right of way (fwd) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 10:09:14 EST Content-Length: 827 > I believe Ranger is refering to the "Brick Yard" crossing on the former PRR > west of Altoona. I also believe it is in Logan Township. Any of the Altoona > subscribers know anything about railfans being run off this area even if they > stay off the tracks? SHould be simple to find out. Go to the county and get a property tax map. Stick it in the Conrail cop's face when they try to arrest you. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Send Commands to ListServ in SUBJECT line Date: Mon, 3 Nov 97 12:52:52 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1606 When sending commands to the listserv (Subscribe, Subscribe Digest, Unsubscribe, Info, Lists, etc.), please put the command in the SUBJECT line and leave the BODY empty. Though the listserv was designed to accept via the SUBJECT field or the BODY, we have discovered that some of the newer MIME-enabled mail clients insert some lines into the BODY before the text that the author actually enters. Because this data is not seen as a command by the listserv, the request is rejected. I will be updating the instructions in the HELP file as well as on the Web pages, as soon as I can find the time. This problem has frustrated many people, including myself because I could not reproduce it. I'm just glad that now we know what is causing it. BTW: I've been monitoring the server logs and am not seeing the timeouts that were causing the dupes. Has anyone received any dupes today that were posted today? (There may be dupes in the pipeline from earlier, so please check the posting date.) --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 12:14:29 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: right of way (fwd) Content-Length: 1839 Greetings to the group, Didn't catch the original post but the brickyard crossing is in fact in Logan Twp. in an area called Coburn. There is a wide area to park your car between the brick yard and the crossing on the south side of the tracks. I have never been hassled by Conrail police there but have been hassled by them in an area that was not in fact Conrail property. (Then there was that time I had two bus loads of participants of a conference here at PSU Altoona. I was taking them on a photo tour of the main line from Spruce Creek to Cresson. Seems a couple of them got a bit over excited and walked to MO tower against the instructions given to the group. The tower called the CR police. We weren't hard to miss in those big busses. But that's another story for another time.) Can't think of why they would bother anyone at the brickyard nor have I heard of anyone ever having any problems there. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA (Technically, I'm in Logan Twp. too.) >> I believe Ranger is refering to the "Brick Yard" crossing on the former PRR >> west of Altoona. I also believe it is in Logan Township. Any of the Altoona >> subscribers know anything about railfans being run off this area even if they >> stay off the tracks? > >SHould be simple to find out. > >Go to the county and get a property tax map. Stick it in the Conrail cop's >face when they try to arrest you. > >-- >Mark D. Bej >bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: This week's Trains Unlimited Date: Mon, 3 Nov 97 15:48:11 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1001 Tonight's episode of "Trains Unlimited" (History Channel, 10 p.m. ET) is on the engineering feats of the railroads. Gotta think the Pennsy will make it in a few spots: -Horseshoe Curve -The Rockville Bridge -The Tunnels to Manhattan and Penn Station (NY) S'pose there's a chance of mention of the unique way the Pennsy linked Philly (and beyond) with Washington via the Northern Central in Baltimore. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "David Benn" Subject: Fw: WNFR 2 bay covered hoppers Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:32:10 +0900 Content-Length: 1001 ---------- > From: Goller, Martin H > To: 'freightcars@sunny16.photo.tntech.edu' > Subject: WNFR 2 bay covered hoppers > Date: Tuesday, November 04, 1997 6:15 AM > > What is the origin of 2 bay covered hoppers with the reporting marks > WNFR? I see them in Pennsylvania in - probably - sand service, often in > sets of 4-6. I learned that WNFR is the mark for WINIFREDE RAILROAD CO. > Who built the cars? What is the number series of the cars? So far I have > seen 1002-1198. > Where is the railroad located? > > Thanks for any information, > > Martin > Gollermh@corning.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:01:54 -0500 (EST) From: Hal6963@aol.com Subject: Re: Lewisburg & Tyrone Content-Length: 762 My 1910 Timetable shows the following stations on the line between Lewisburg and Milesburg where it junctioned the main between Tyrone and Lock Haven: Lewisburg Vicksburg Mifflinburg Millmont Rising Spring Linden Hall Lemont Peru Axemann Bellefonte Milesburg Some of these towns do not show on my 1975 topo map of the area, possibly the names have changed. Harold ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:55:12 -0500 From: mxb13@psu.edu (Michael Bezilla) Subject: Re: Lewisburg & Tyrone Content-Length: 1727 Through traffic on the L&T never amounted to much. The Sun & Bel (Sunbury & Bellefonte) RPO came off c. 1949, tho a mixed train stayed on this route operating a Mon-Sat Sunbury to Bellefonte turnaround for a few more years--mostly gathering milk from local dairy farmers. Through service ended altogether a few years before the PC merger. The east end local from Norry went as far west as Mifflinburg. The local from Blft went as far east as Coburn. Then, in PC days, the Lemont-Coburn segment was abandoned after hurricane agnes in '72. Mike >My 1910 Timetable shows the following stations on the line between Lewisburg >and Milesburg where it junctioned the main between Tyrone and Lock Haven: >Lewisburg >Vicksburg >Mifflinburg >Millmont >Rising Spring >Linden Hall >Lemont >Peru >Axemann >Bellefonte >Milesburg >Some of these towns do not show on my 1975 topo map of the area, possibly the >names have changed. > >Harold > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". >Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:06:38 -0500 (EST) From: Hal6963@aol.com Subject: Pass Traffic Altoona - Harrisburg Content-Length: 663 My 1910 timetable shows 40 passenger trains per day (20 East and 20 West) on the Mainline between Pittsburg and New York. When this is combined with local, and branch passenger trains plus all of the freight traffic Altoona surely was a busy place at that point in time. Harold ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:40:10 EST Subject: Re: Lewisburg & Tyrone Content-Length: 1332 In a message dated 97-11-04 10:08:38 EST, Hal6963@aol.com writes: << My 1910 Timetable shows the following stations on the line between Lewisburg and Milesburg where it junctioned the main between Tyrone and Lock Haven: Lewisburg Vicksburg Mifflinburg Millmont Rising Spring Linden Hall Lemont Peru Axemann Bellefonte Milesburg Some of these towns do not show on my 1975 topo map of the area, possibly the names have changed. Harold >> The tracks were still in place when I was attending Penn State in the late 60's. At one time this line saw considerable passenger service. Lemont was the passenger discharge point for Penn State. Lemont is on PA Rt 26 about 3 or 4 miles east of State College. I belive it was in Ridge Reiley's history of Penn STate Football that he recounted stories of the football team making their way through the snow to Lemont to board the train for away games. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:10:10 -0500 From: mxb13@psu.edu (Michael Bezilla) Subject: Re: Lewisburg & Tyrone Content-Length: 1309 Rich Orr wrote: >The tracks were still in place when I was attending Penn State in the late >60's. At one time this line saw considerable passenger service. Lemont was >the passenger discharge point for Penn State. Yes, students going east left Lemont and connected to a Buffalo line train at Montandon for, say, Phila, NY, or Balto. Students heading west could leave Lemont and connect at Bellefonte with a Bald Eagle branch train to take them west to Tyrone or Altoona and another connection west, or to Lock Haven, and another connection north, e.g., to Buffalo. But most students going north or west simply went to Bellefonte to board the BE br train and did not bother with the connecting train at Lemont. However, this traffic pretty much dried up in the 1920s with the coming of autos and buses and U.S. route 322 thru State College. Then Lewistown and Tyrone became the main stations. Mike ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: "Shark" photos Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 20:53:01 -0500 Content-Length: 813 FYI- For the person looking for "Shark" photos for a modeling project. This one has a distant shot of the rear of a freight RF16 behind the longest string of RF16's I have ever seen in one photo. http://www.mtp.semi.harris.com/tr_bo4219.jpg Look here for a Bag - O - Baldwins including PRR http://www.mtp.semi.harris.com/diesel52.html Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: PRR diesels on the Internet Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 21:18:49 -0500 Content-Length: 868 Some diesel locomotive photos of interest to the PRR diesel fan on the Internet. http://www.mtp.semi.harris.com/tr_prr5840.jpg http://www.mtp.semi.harris.com/tr_prr9484.jpg http://www.mtp.semi.harris.com/tr_prr6200.jpg http://www.mtp.semi.harris.com/tr_prr5823.jpg http://www.mtp.semi.harris.com/tr_prr5812.jpg http://www.mtp.semi.harris.com/tr_prr5773.jpg http://www.mtp.semi.harris.com/tr_prr2010.jpg Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: This week's Trains Unlimited Date: Wed, 5 Nov 97 08:02:08 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1641 On 11/4/97 3:30 PM, Doug Drew (ddrew@channing-bete.com) wrote: >I don't get the History Channel on my cable, so I didn't see this last >night. >Was the Pennsy mentioned? >The features Jerry mentioned are impressive, but even more impressive are >the electrification of the main line from New York to Washington and >Harrisburg, and the rebuilding of most of the Pittsburgh division by Cassatt, >turning a winding corkscrew of an alignment into a four-track super >railroad. However, these two items are on such a scale as to preclude >inclusion, >as they are so far-flung. Very early in the show was a segment on the Rockville Bridge. Fellow list subscriber Dan Cupper was interviewed numerous times during that and other segments. Finally, a face to the name! A lot of time was spent on the Hoosac and Moffat (?) Tunnels. Nearly the last 15 minutes were on the Horseshoe Curve, however. Good Pennsy episode. Next week focuses on another specific railroad, Wabash I believe. I'm hoping they do a full episode on our road. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: P2K PRR E7s Selling Out!!! Date: Wed, 5 Nov 97 12:01:11 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1178 Help!...and a Warning!!! I've been dragging my feet at buying the Proto 2000 E7s. I knew I wanted them; just wasn't a "good time" to buy. I have learned that most of the distribution channel is totally out of B units and now many are actually out of A units also. Being a "limited run" from Life Like, this is it for tuscan, as the fourth run will be DGLE (February). Buy now, if you can. If anyone knows of a place that has them in stock, PLEASE let me know, both here and at "jerry@dsop.com", as I will be feverishly trying to order an ABA set this evening. Thanks. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: P2K E7's in DGLE (and other product announcements) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 97 12:28:49 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 2278 Walther's now has part numbers for the Life-Like Proto 2000 DGLE (Brunswick Green) E7s due in March: 433-23061 PROTO 2000 Diesel E7 A Unit Powered -- H $ 90.00 03/01/1998 PRR #5841A, Brunswick Green 5-Stripe, w/o Mars Light 433-23062 PROTO 2000 Diesel E7 A Unit Powered -- H $ 90.00 03/01/1998 PRR #5848A, Brunswick Green 5-Stripe, w/o Mars Light 433-23063 PROTO 2000 Diesel E7 B Unit Dummy -- H $ 45.00 03/01/1998 PRR #5844B, Brunswick Green 5-Stripe, w/o 433-23064 PROTO 2000 Diesel E7 B Unit Dummy -- H $ 45.00 03/01/1998 PRR #5853B, Brunswick Green 5-Stripe, w/o P2K PA units are due in December, but not in Pennsy paint. 433-21609 Proto 2000 Diesel PA Powered -- H $ 95.00 12/31/1997 Undecorated, w/Mars Light and Dynamic Brakes, 45 Degree # Board 433-21631 Proto 2000 Diesel PA Powered -- H $ 95.00 12/31/1997 Undecorated, w/Mars Light and Dynamic Brakes, Original # Board 433-21632 Proto 2000 Diesel PB Dummy -- H $ 45.00 12/31/1997 Undecorated w/Dynamic Brakes 160-80031 Spectrum GE 44 Ton Diesel Switcher -- H $ 47.95 01/31/1998 PRR #9325 160-81222 Spectrum FM H16-44 Baby Trainmaster H $ 59.95 12/31/1997 Diesel Locomotive -- PRR #8810 --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 97 11:05:20 CST Subject: This and that... Content-Length: 2294 Hi, all, Let me answer one of my own questions. What color were the interior of interlocking towers on the Middle Div.? In going back through v.2 of Yanosey's PRR diesels in color, lo and behold there's a shot of ALTO's model board. The walls appear to be depot buff, or whatever PRR called the yellow they used on the exterior. Any other options you know of? RE ICC Valuation info mentioned on an earlier posting. All I can say is GREAT STUFF!!! Sometimes it's hard to locate the right things because the National Archives has not always got everything catalogued yet but it gets easier every year. Most of the basic valuation data collection occurred c. 1917 so bear that in mind. But the maps and engineering summaries are amazing in the details they reveal. You need to identify which valuation section of the PRR you're interested in - the whole rr was divided into various sections. The original field notes have not always survived, but even sumamrized data is fascinating. There are sometimes photos and drawings as well. TRIUMPH I has a number of val photos. Roberts naturally uses their poor quality to "prove" that gov't always screws up whatever it does. If Roberts had only seen other val photos, he'd know that many of them were quite good for c.1917. The quality depended on the photographic abilities of the particular field survey team. The track maps are worth trying to access because they show exact locations of track and buildings in great detail. You may have to travel to Washington, DC to use the stuff but it is really worth the trip. Has anyone seen the new book on PRR's conversion to diesel by Eric Hrsimaki (sp?)? I've seen it advertised and would like to get some feedback. PRR forever! George Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 97 11:28:41 CST Subject: Re: PA Lumber Series of books Content-Length: 1827 Hi, everyone, The following message may interest some of you. Back in the 1970s, a group of railroad historians, Tom Taber III, the late Ben Kline, and the late Walter Casler, published a series of books on the logging railroads of PA. They are amazingly detailed with lots of wonderful vintage photos and locomotive rosters. They covered over 123 companies. What's this mean for SPFers? Well, many of these lines connected with the PRR and their story is part of the bigger PRR story. These books have long been out of print and used copies go for four times the prices mentioned below. If this interests, get your copies NOW while they are affordable and available. They will almost certainly not be re- printed again. >I just called the hobby shop where I got my copy of the PA Lumber book two >weeks ago. I spoke with Bud Charles, the owner of A.B. Charles & Sons Hobby >Shop in Dormont, PA - a suburb of Pittsburgh. He has been in touch with >Thomas Taber, and has arranged the reprinting of the entire thirteen volume >series. Currently about six or seven volumes are in stock, but all are on >the way. The price of each volume is $10.95 + PA sales tax. He has already >taken and fulfilled many phone orders. The hobby shop phone # is >412-561-3068. PRR forever, George Pierson Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:53:48 -0500 (EST) From: Eichhorn@aol.com Subject: BH50/BP60 Questions Content-Length: 1376 Hi Gang, I have a couple of questions I hope that someone can answer for me pertaining to the Centipedes. My research indicates that the Centipedes came in different varieties; the 'normal' version and a Type II varient. The Type II came with or without both antennae and long roof vents. No problem seeing whether or not the unit has antennae or not; but, determining if the long roof vents are present is another story. Very few photos show much of the roof detail and the one that does....I can't tell whether or not, I'm looking at a 'normal' or a Type II. So, now for the questions: Is there another means of determining one "phase" from the other? Can anyone provide numbers for the Type II? The reason I ask is, I have an opportunity to purchase one or the other at a very "reasonable" price and I'd rather know something( more than I do) about the what I'm buying. Any help anyone might provide, would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, George Subject: Re: P2K E7's in DGLE (and other product announcements) Content-Length: 625 > 160-81222 Spectrum FM H16-44 Baby Trainmaster H $ 59.95 12/31/1997 > Diesel Locomotive -- PRR #8810 > Note that this is not the correct body style for the H-16-44 units the PRR owned, either. -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Found E7s Date: Wed, 5 Nov 97 20:01:57 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 865 Model Train Works (Finksburg, Md.; 800-852-2441) still has P2K E7s in stock. Powered A units are $52.95; Dummy B's are $29.95. Stock is as follows: (4) #5860A (3) #5863A (3) #5856B (5) #5862B Get 'em ordered now if you want 'em! P.S. Ask for Bob. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 20:08:48 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Great Book! Content-Length: 1657 I have a book to share with fellow Pennsy fans. Especially the LINES WEST group. "Railroads of Indiana" by Richard Simmons and Frances Parker is an excellent book with a lot of Pennsy and Pennsy predecessor information. It is published by Indiana University Press. As an example of a Pennsy predecessor, the Madison and Indianapolis the main pioneer railroad in Indiana. It was acquired by the PRR. The climb from Madison out of the Ohio River valley was the steepest grade in the whole Pennsy system, and this was the first real railroad in the the state. The "Madison Cut" was quite an accomplishment. Horseshoe Curve is one of the few things I have ever visited that was more impressive. The hardcover book is 320 8.5 x 11 pages with 91 B&W photos, 28 maps, and 10 figures. The book appears VERY WELL WRITTEN and VERY WELL RESEARCHED, in contrast to some others I have seen here. The book retails for $49.95, but probably can be had for the $39.95 "special promotional" price. S&H is $4.50. Call 1-800-554-7463 or write RR VENTURES PO Box 4 Bloomington IN 47402 I have no financial interest in the book. I would like to see good railroad books succeed. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 01:52:35 -0800 From: Stan Feldman Subject: RAILPIX-SITE-UPDATE Content-Length: 1689 Hello all stations, I have added the following images to my site; Amtrak #938 @ 30th Street Station, Phila. Pa. Amtrak #935 @ Tacony Station, Phila. Pa. Amtrak #261 F-40-PHR @ 30th Street Station, Phila. Pa. Septa RDC at Ayres Jct. Pa. Septa RDC approaching Ayres Jct. Pa. Old Septa Southampton Station. Map of Septa Newtown Line in 1976. Old Cheltenham Station, Cheltenham Pa. Septa R-7 Train at Zoo Interlocking, Phila. Pa. Old PRR Bristol Pa. station NJT #4146 @ Race Street Engine Terminal, Phila. Pa. NJT Atlantic City Train passing Conrail local on NEC. A 1925 Railroad Safety Poster on the RailCard Page. Enjoy !! Stan *********************************************************** -----STAN'S RAILPIX---------- Railroad Photo Gallery http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/1030/railpix.html ****************************************************** Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it !! *********************************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: KC Excerpts on CD, Volume II Date: Thu, 6 Nov 97 08:40:51 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1203 I am now accepting orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings". For those who weren't around for Volume I, it is a cross-platform CD-ROM containing may of the larger downloadable files available on "Keystone Crossings". The CD alleviates the need for a lengthy and oft-troublesome download, and also provides a permanent storage mechanism for the files. The price is $30, inclusive of shipping. The product will ship in December. A list of files contained on the CD, and ordering information, can be found at "Merchandise Service" at http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: P2K SD9? Date: Thu, 6 Nov 97 09:32:19 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 719 One of the older P2K units was an SD9. A few places are still showing these in PRR. Are these as accurate as the GP9 and E7 units? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: P2K SD9? Date: Thu, 06 Nov 97 10:27:40 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 760 Yes, the SD9's (and SD7's, SW9's and E8's too) are just as accurate as the GP9's and E7's. They run a bit better than the GP's too. Rob >One of the older P2K units was an SD9. A few places are still showing >these in PRR. Are these as accurate as the GP9 and E7 units? > >--------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roger P. Hensley" Subject: Columbus Invitational Meet - Dec 6 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:44:25 -0500 (EST) Content-Length: 3738 The Central Indiana Division, MWR, NMRA is holding a joint Meet (not a Dealer Sale/Show) with the Columbus Area Railroad Club of Columbus Indiana. The purpose is to promote the hobby of Model Railroading at a time of the year in which model trains are thought of, Christmas, and in a place that will reach many people at this time of year, the Commons Mall (retail shopping space). The CARR Club is located in a store front in the Commons Mall, but will have to vacate at the first of the year. On behalf of the CID and the CARR Club, I would invite anyone in the area of Columbus Indiana who has an interest in model railroading to make plans to make this meet in support of our hobby. Francis Parker, co-author of the new 'Railroads of Indiana' will be there for a book signing and the club room is worth the trip in and of itself. There will be Clinics and Contests and opportunities for other family members to Shop the stores for that something extra for Christmas. Bring your models and photos that you would like to see entered or displayed and take advantage of the contests as well as the clinics and the club layouts. When: December 6, 1997 (Saturday) - Columbus, IN What: Columbus Invitational Meet Where: Commons Mall - Downtown at the corner of 3rd & Washington Streets in Columbus Indiana Time: 10 AM to 5 PM (Clinics & Contests from 10 AM to 3 PM) Hosts: Columbus Area Railroad Club and the Central Indiana Division of the Midwest Region, NMRA Tour the Columbus Area RR Club Room Layouts Clinics - Five Clinics are scheduled at this time. Ron Lane (Columbus Club) - "Mann's Creek Railroad and the New River Gorge". His clinic was standing room only at the recent Narrow Gauge convention. George Dollens (Columbus Club) - Constructing flat side plastic car kits. He has a lot of plastic loco kitbashing experience to share. Tom Cain & Paul Brown (CID) - "Chasing Santa Fe Warbonnets across Illinois." A slide show presentation with some really neat photos! Jim Wilhite (CID) - "Making and Applying your own decals." Presented at the NMRA National convention in Madison, WI Luana Wilhite (CID) - "Painting Figures" Also given at the NMRA National convention in Madison, WI Contests - Photo and Model Contests 2 Popular Vote Contests Favorite Train Contest (No limit - bring your own track. Must have an EOT marker, device or car as appropriate to its era) Favorite Private/Business Car Contest. Displays - Displays of past contest winners, both model. and photo. For more information contact: Roger Hensley at 765-649-2367 ( rhensley@ecicnet.org) or Al Askerberg (812) 379-2697 (asker@hsonline.net) Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org Information Systems Specialist - Ball State University - Muncie, IN === http://ecicnet.org/~rhensley/cidwelco.html ===================== === Homepage of the Central Indiana Division, Midwest Region NMRA == ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:55:05 -0500 (EST) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Fwd: PRRT&HS Web Page Content-Length: 1047 On Nov. 4, I sent an e-mail to the webmaster of the PRRT&HS site complaining about the lack of updates and his failure to respond to offers of help. Below is his response. Seems like a change of heart. I also sent copies of all our posting regarding the manner in which the site was being managed to one of the Board members. This may have caused a fire to be started under the webmaster. Only time will tell. Rich Orr --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: Re: PRRT&HS Web Page Date: 97-11-06 12:02:48 EST From: Burbageg To: SUVCW ORR Richard: Thank you for your comments. I welcome assistance from anyone. Geo. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:16:50 -0500 (EST) From: Eichhorn@aol.com Subject: BP60/BH50 Questions Content-Length: 1424 If this is a repeat, please excuse. Hi Gang, I have a couple of questions I hope that someone can answer for me pertaining to the Centipedes. My research indicates that the Centipedes came in two different varieties; the 'normal' version and a Type II varient. The Type II came with or without both antennae and long roof vents. No problem seeing whether or not the unit has antennae or not; but, determining if the long roof vents are present is another story. Very few photos show much of the roof detail and the one that does....I can't tell whether or not, I'm looking at a 'normal' or a Type II. So, now for the questions: Is there another means of determining one "phase" from the other? Can anyone provide numbers for the Type II? The reason I ask is, I have an opportunity to purchase one or the other at a very "reasonable"(ha!) price and I'd rather know something( more than I do) about the what I'm buying. Any help anyone might provide, would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, George Subject: Re: PA Lumber Series of books Content-Length: 2346 Greetings to the group, I've seen some of the individual volumes of the PA Lumber series of books at English's Model Railroad Supply (the Bowser people) in Montoursville, Pa., which is just to the east of Williamsport. Also try your local library or local college/univeristy library to take a look at them. If they don't have them, they should be able to get them via inter-library loan. It seems the Penn State has bound the set into one book. University Park's Pattee and the Dubois Campus has it. Below is its description, LC call number, key word search suggestions and the indiviual volume titles. Hope that helps. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA Kline, Benjamin F Logging railroad era of lumbering in Pennsylvania, a history of the lumber, chemical wood, and tanning companies which used railroads in Pennsylvania. / Walter C. Casler, Benjamin F. G. Kline, Jr. and Thomas T. Taber, III. Williamsport, Pa., Printed by Lycoming Printing Co., 1970-1978. 15 v. ill. 28 cm. Includes bibliography. Call#: HD9757.P4L6 1. Logging railroads -- History. 2. Lumbering -- Pennsylvania -- History. Contents: Introduction -- No.1. "Pitch pine and prop timber" / by B.F.G. Kline -- No.2. "Wild catting" on the mountain / by B.F.G. Kline -- No.3. Ghost lumber towns of central Pennsylvania / by T.T. Taber -- No.4. Sunset along Susquehanna waters / by T.T. Taber -- No.5. The Goodyears : an empire in the hemlocks / by T.T. Taber -- No.6. Whining saws and squealing flanges / by T.T. Taber -- No.7. Sawmills among the derricks / by T.T. Taber -- No.8. Tionesta Valley / by W.C. Casler -- No.9. Teddy Collins' empire / by Walter C. Casler -- No.10. Tanbark, alcohol and lumber / by T.T. Taber -- No.11. Allegheny Valley logging railroads -- No.12. Dinkies, dams and sawdust / by B.F.G. Kline -- No.13. "Stemwinders" in the Laurel Highlands / by B.F.G. Kline -- No.14 Addenda and index. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:28:29 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: BM-60 Content-Length: 1890 Hi all! I was recently able to pick up an N.J. Brass BM-60. Now the question is that I haven't found a photo of this class anywhere, and it isn't listed in either of the PRR color guides or the PRRT&HS passenger car book. The car is 60' with two hatches on either end (I initially mistook it for an express reefer!). There is a small center door with windows. BTW, the model is very nicely done! My questions: 1) Were the hatches for handling mail sacks (from above?) 2) What were the car numbers (or a car number!) 3) Were they typically used in service with the class BM-70 (like the Bethlehem Car Shops model) as mail storage cars? 4) Were these cars common or rare? 5) Any idea when they entered service? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** "Illigitimum non Carbarundum!" _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Fwd: PRRT&HS Web Page Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 16:53:54 EST Content-Length: 1191 > On Nov. 4, I sent an e-mail to the webmaster of the PRRT&HS site complaining > about the lack of updates and his failure to respond to offers of help. > Below is his response. Seems like a change of heart. I also sent copies of > all our posting regarding the manner in which the site was being managed to > one of the Board members. This may have caused a fire to be started under > the webmaster. Only time will tell. > > Rich Orr > Thank you for your comments. I welcome assistance from anyone. > Geo. I spoke with George directly, by email and phone, soon after he launched the web site, offering to cooperate in any way, help, etc. I received a lukewarm reply and have yet to hear anything from George Burbage about the web site. It really looks like a 1-man show. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 16:55:21 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Subject: PRR Baby Trainmaster (was Re: P2K E7's in DGLE (and other Content-Length: 892 At 06:26 PM 11/5/97 -0500, Derrick J Brashear wrote: >> 160-81222 Spectrum FM H16-44 Baby Trainmaster H $ 59.95 12/31/1997 >> Diesel Locomotive -- PRR #8810 > >Note that this is not the correct body style for the H-16-44 units the PRR >owned, either. Can you tell us what's wrong with the model? Does it need different louvers or doors? Or is the wheelbase wrong? In other words, can we bash it with a few detail parts, or is it a total loss? Thanks! Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 16:56:38 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: BM-60 Content-Length: 3004 Greetings to Bruce and the group, Might this be a milk car? Some of those (and I don't know if the PRR had any) had two tanks on either side of the center of the car. There was a door on both sides at the center. This allowed access to hook up the hoses to fill, drain and clean the tanks. The roof hatches may in deed be for ice. The cars looked like regular express refers but had a lower height. There was an article about these type of milk tank cars in, I believe, Model Railroad Craftsman and I'm working on my memory of that article. Hope this was of some help. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 03:28 PM 11/6/97 -0600, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. wrote: >Hi all! > >I was recently able to pick up an N.J. Brass BM-60. Now the question is >that I haven't found a photo of this class anywhere, and it isn't listed in >either of the PRR color guides or the PRRT&HS passenger car book. The car >is 60' with two hatches on either end (I initially mistook it for an >express reefer!). There is a small center door with windows. BTW, the >model is very nicely done! > >My questions: > >1) Were the hatches for handling mail sacks (from above?) >2) What were the car numbers (or a car number!) >3) Were they typically used in service with the class BM-70 (like the >Bethlehem Car Shops model) as mail storage cars? >4) Were these cars common or rare? >5) Any idea when they entered service? > >Happy Rails >Bruce > > >Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. >Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and >Director, Nucleic Acid Services >Scott-Ritchey Research Center >334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ >*************************************************************************** ***** > >"Illigitimum non Carbarundum!" > _ _ > / \ / \ > ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ > |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". >Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:59:07 -0500 (EST) From: VVA249@aol.com Subject: LAST RUN -Former NYC Content-Length: 795 Saw Conrail Diesel # 7568 "GP 10" whitelined and dead in an Eastbound out of Collinwood - on NYC Also - last vestiges of the Collinwood shops are disappearing under wreckers ball - the Railroad YMCA building on East 152nd Street is a heap of rubble - the Erection Shop (served by transfer table) is half down - only the derelict boiler house remains untouched as of this morning Dick Ross Cleveland ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 17:08:18 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Re: BP60/BH50 Questions Content-Length: 4991 At 03:16 PM 11/6/97 -0500, you wrote: >If this is a repeat, please excuse. > >Hi Gang, > >I have a couple of questions I hope that >someone can answer for me pertaining >to the Centipedes. My research indicates >that the Centipedes came in two different >varieties; the 'normal' version and a Type II >varient. The Type II came with or without >both antennae and long roof vents. No >problem seeing whether or not the unit has >antennae or not; but, determining if the >long roof vents are present is another story. >Very few photos show much of the roof detail >and the one that does....I can't tell whether or >not, I'm looking at a 'normal' or a Type II. So, >now for the questions: Is there another means >of determining one "phase" from the other? Can >anyone provide numbers for the Type II? The >reason I ask is, I have an opportunity to purchase >one or the other at a very "reasonable"(ha!) price and >I'd rather know something( more than I do) about >the what I'm buying. Any help anyone might >provide, would be greatly appreciated. > >Thanks, > >George >------------------------------------------------------------- >Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". >Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Greetings, I don't know any of this for a fact, but studies of pictures leads me to beleive the following: When delivered the units were semi-permanently coupled and operated as an "A" unit and a "B" unit. The "A" units seem to have the antennaes, the "B" units don't. The units numbered as 5823:01:00 are "A" units, the ones numbered 5823:02:00 are the "B" units. Apparently the "B" units were renumbered to the 5811 thru 5821 series. All the pics I have which shows enough of the top to be sure have the long vents. I assume the vents referred to are the ones just above the side vents. If others have more info, please add to this meager information(guesses)...... year bldr model class number hp remarks 1947 BLW DR 12-8-30 BH50 5811 2500 Formerly class BP60 converted in1952 1947 BLW DR 12-8-30 BH50 5812 2500 Formerly class BP60 converted in1952 1947 BLW DR 12-8-30 BH50 5813 2500 Formerly class BP60 converted in1952 1947 BLW DR 12-8-30 BH50 5814 2500 Formerly class BP60 converted in1952 1947 BLW DR 12-8-30 BH50 5815 2500 Formerly class BP60 converted in1952 1947 BLW DR 12-8-30 BH50 5816 2500 Formerly class BP60 converted in1952 1947 BLW DR 12-8-30 BH50 5817 2500 Formerly class BP60 converted in1952 1948 BLW DR 12-8-30 BH50 5818 2500 Formerly class BP60 converted in1952 1948 BLW DR 12-8-30 BH50 5819 2500 Formerly class BP60 converted in1952 1948 BLW DR 12-8-30 BH50 5820 2500 Formerly class BP60 converted in1952 1948 BLW DR 12-8-30 BH50 5821 2500 Formerly class BP60 converted in1952 1948 BLW DR 12-8-30 BH50 5822 2500 Formerly class BP60 converted in1952 1947 BLW DR 12-8-30 BP60 5823:01:00 6000 Semi-Perm coupled pair, reclass BH50, 1952 1947 BLW DR 12-8-30 5823:02:00 1947 BLW DR 12-8-30 BP60 5824:01:00 6000 Semi-Perm coupled pair, reclass BH50, 1952 1947 BLW DR 12-8-30 5824:02:00 1947 BLW DR 12-8-30 BP60 5825:01:00 6000 Semi-Perm coupled pair, reclass BH50, 1952 1947 BLW DR 12-8-30 5825:02:00 1947 BLW DR 12-8-30 BP60 5826:01:00 6000 Semi-Perm coupled pair, reclass BH50, 1952 1947 BLW DR 12-8-30 5826:02:00 1947 BLW DR 12-8-30 BP60 5827:01:00 6000 Semi-Perm coupled pair, reclass BH50, 1952 1947 BLW DR 12-8-30 5827:02:00 1947 BLW DR 12-8-30 BP60 5828:01:00 6000 Semi-Perm coupled pair, reclass BH50, 1952 1947 BLW DR 12-8-30 5828:02:00 1947 BLW DR 12-8-30 BP60 5829:01:00 6000 Semi-Perm coupled pair, reclass BH50, 1952 1947 BLW DR 12-8-30 5829:02:00 1948 BLW DR 12-8-30 BP60 5830:01:00 6000 Semi-Perm coupled pair, reclass BH50, 1952 1948 BLW DR 12-8-30 5830:02:00 1948 BLW DR 12-8-30 BP60 5831:01:00 6000 Semi-Perm coupled pair, reclass BH50, 1952 1948 BLW DR 12-8-30 5831:02:00 1948 BLW DR 12-8-30 BP60 5832:01:00 6000 Semi-Perm coupled pair, reclass BH50, 1952 1948 BLW DR 12-8-30 5832:02:00 1948 BLW DR 12-8-30 BP60 5833:01:00 6000 Semi-Perm coupled pair, reclass BH50, 1952 1948 BLW DR 12-8-30 5833:02:00 1948 BLW DR 12-8-30 BP60 5834:01:00 6000 Semi-Perm coupled pair, reclass BH50, 1952 1948 BLW DR 12-8-30 5834:02:00 > Sincerely, S.A. McCALL hosam ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:48:47 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: BM60 or R60? Content-Length: 2012 Hello all... I have read the message from Bruce Smith and am a little confused. He says that the car is a BM60...well these are like the B-60 class baggage cars, but have a small 15 Ft. RPO section on one end. They had a small ventilator in the roof above the RPO section. But Mr Smith states "there are two hatches at either end(I initially mistook it for a express reefer)it has center door with two small windows." Hmmmmm sounds like a rare class R-60 reefer to me. they are both passenger cars,both had similar trucks and both had arched roofs(although the reefer roof was lower) I was'nt sure until i looked thru the book "PRR passenger and freight car diagrams" by Robert J.Wayner (1981 Wayner Publications) It shows a car almost exactly like what Mr Smith is talking about, small windows in the doors and all.Does anyone know for sure? The book also shows a BM-60 class on page 3 and a R-60 class on page 8. It also shows plans for the B-60,B-60a and the B-60b. also of interest there are plans for the various MP54 classes that were discussed not long ago...about 6-7 different types. It would also make sense that a R-60 would have been used in milk service...The RR Model Craftsman article does'nt show a R-60.Mostly D&H and B&M and Bordens types. Also to add...a BM-60 would have been used on a light RPO route. have no idea as to a number for both...BM-60 maybe in the 9000 series? R-60 maybe in the 2000 series? oh well..... H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 23:04:35 -0400 From: smithfam@earth.sunlink.net Subject: Re: PA Lumber Series of books Content-Length: 2590 If anyone is interested.... I've seen these books at the Country Cupboard. It is across from International Paper, in Lewisburg. Brandon Smith Drew McGhee wrote: > > Greetings to the group, > > I've seen some of the individual volumes of the PA Lumber series of books at > English's Model Railroad Supply (the Bowser people) in Montoursville, Pa., > which is just to the east of Williamsport. Also try your local library or > local college/univeristy library to take a look at them. If they don't have > them, they should be able to get them via inter-library loan. It seems the > Penn State has bound the set into one book. University Park's Pattee and the > Dubois Campus has it. Below is its description, LC call number, key word > search suggestions and the indiviual volume titles. Hope that helps. > > Drew R. McGhee > Altoona, PA > > Kline, Benjamin F > Logging railroad era of lumbering in Pennsylvania, a history of the lumber, > chemical wood, and tanning companies which used railroads in Pennsylvania. / > Walter C. Casler, Benjamin F. G. Kline, Jr. and Thomas T. Taber, III. > > Williamsport, Pa., Printed by Lycoming Printing Co., 1970-1978. > 15 v. ill. 28 cm. > Includes bibliography. > Call#: HD9757.P4L6 > > 1. Logging railroads -- History. 2. Lumbering -- Pennsylvania -- History. > > Contents: > Introduction -- > No.1. "Pitch pine and prop timber" / by B.F.G. Kline -- > No.2. "Wild catting" on the mountain / by B.F.G. Kline -- > No.3. Ghost lumber towns of central Pennsylvania / by T.T. Taber -- > No.4. Sunset along Susquehanna waters / by T.T. Taber -- > No.5. The Goodyears : an empire in the hemlocks / by T.T. Taber -- > No.6. Whining saws and squealing flanges / by T.T. Taber -- > No.7. Sawmills among the derricks / by T.T. Taber -- > No.8. Tionesta Valley / by W.C. Casler -- > No.9. Teddy Collins' empire / by Walter C. Casler -- > No.10. Tanbark, alcohol and lumber / by T.T. Taber -- > No.11. Allegheny Valley logging railroads -- > No.12. Dinkies, dams and sawdust / by B.F.G. Kline -- > No.13. "Stemwinders" in the Laurel Highlands / by B.F.G. Kline -- > No.14 Addenda and index. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Joe Gotaskie" Subject: Re: PA Lumber Series of books Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:38:30 -0500 Content-Length: 739 ---------- > From: Drew McGhee > It seems the Penn State has bound the set into one book. The entire series was available as a bound set by the publisher after the original series was complete. I have seen copies for sale at various places that sell used books. The next time I see a set, I'll take note of the price and post it. Joe ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Joe Gotaskie" Subject: Re: BM60 or R60? Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:50:53 -0500 Content-Length: 2690 There is also a picture of a R-60 in Pennsy Power 3, page 371. Joe ---------- > From: bubbles@visi.net > To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com > Subject: BM60 or R60? > Date: Thursday, November 06, 1997 8:48 PM > > > Hello all... > I have read the message from Bruce Smith and am a little confused. He says > that the car is a BM60...well these are like the B-60 class baggage cars, > but have a small 15 Ft. RPO section on one end. They had a small ventilator > in the roof above the RPO section. > But Mr Smith states "there are two hatches at either end(I initially > mistook it for a express reefer)it has center door with two small windows." > > Hmmmmm sounds like a rare class R-60 reefer to me. > > they are both passenger cars,both had similar trucks and both had > arched roofs(although the reefer roof was lower) > > I was'nt sure until i looked thru the book "PRR passenger and freight > car diagrams" by Robert J.Wayner (1981 Wayner Publications) > It shows a car almost exactly like what Mr Smith is talking about, > small windows in the doors and all.Does anyone know for sure? > > The book also shows a BM-60 class on page 3 and a R-60 class on page 8. > It also shows plans for the B-60,B-60a and the B-60b. > > also of interest there are plans for the various MP54 classes that were > discussed not long ago...about 6-7 different types. > It would also make sense that a R-60 would have been used in milk > service...The RR Model Craftsman article does'nt show a R-60.Mostly > D&H and B&M and Bordens types. > Also to add...a BM-60 would have been used on a light RPO route. > have no idea as to a number for both...BM-60 maybe in the 9000 series? > R-60 maybe in the 2000 series? > oh well..... > > H.Mummert > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". > Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dan Cupper" Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 11:33:59 +0000 Subject: Re: PRR Calendar Request Content-Length: 2231 > From: "Bill Nixon" > Organization: University of Pittsburgh > Saw this in newsgroups, maybe someone can help: > > Date sent: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 07:33:25 -0500 (EST) > From: bnixon+@pitt.edu (Bill Nixon) > To: bnixon+@pitt.edu > Subject: (fwd) Looking for Pennsy Calendar > > From: cookst@ptld.uswest.net > Subject: Looking for Pennsy Calendar > Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 01:11:18 -0600 > Newsgroups: alt.railroad > X-Authenticated-Sender: cookst@ptld.uswest.net > > My dad worked as a fireman on the Pennsy in 1945. I am trying to > locate information about a Pennsylvania Railroad Calendar which > featured a photo of the line he worked on. This was from the late > '30's to early 40's and showed a train crossing the Susquehanna R. > on a long stone arch bridge. If anyone can identify the year of the > calendar and may have a copy for sale I would appreciate a reply. Two PRR calendar paintings featured the Rockville Bridge: -- 1925 (the scene was repeated for 1926 calendars), by the New England painter Harold Brett, showed a K4 steam engine and passenger train traveling eastward, from a perspective looking west. Expect to pay $1500 or more for one of these in excellent to mint condition with all or most calendar pages. Price would be lower for one with wear&tear, or with the calendar pages all gone; price would be MUCH lower for one on which the calendar portion (with or without monthly pages) had been cut off -- perhaps $25-75. -- 1950, by the New Jersey artist Grif Teller, who painted most of the PRR calendar paintings, showed three trains at the west end of the bridge, from a perspective looking east. In excellent to mint condition, worth $75-$150. Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Romans 10:9 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 08:10:30 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: BM60 or R60? Content-Length: 2548 H.Mummert said: > Hello all... > I have read the message from Bruce Smith and am a little confused. He says > that the car is a BM60...well these are like the B-60 class baggage cars, > but have a small 15 Ft. RPO section on one end. They had a small ventilator > in the roof above the RPO section. > But Mr Smith states "there are two hatches at either end(I initially > mistook it for a express reefer)it has center door with two small windows." Yup - sorry I wasn't more clear. The car has an arched roof with two rectangular hatches in the roof at each end. The doors are centered on each side, and appear to be internally mounted and perhaps sliding. There are rectangular windows in the upper half of the door. It definitely does NOT look like a B-60. Does the BM-60 have the classic porthole window in the baggage door? > Hmmmmm sounds like a rare class R-60 reefer to me. > > The book also shows a BM-60 class on page 3 and a R-60 class on page 8. It sounds like I have an R-60 (not that I mind). Since I haven't been able to find "PRR passenger and freight car diagrams" anywhere and it is long out of print, would someone out there mind photocopying the BM-60 and R-60 plans and snail mailing them to me? I will definitely confirm on-line which of these cars it really is! Happy Rails Bruce Snail Mail: Bruce F. Smith 642 Woody Drive Auburn, AL 36832 Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** "Illigitimum non Carbarundum!" _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR Calendar Request Date: Fri, 7 Nov 97 10:34:24 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1114 On 11/7/97 9:48 AM, Bill Nixon (bnixon+@pitt.edu) wrote: >My dad worked as a fireman on the Pennsy in 1945. I am trying to locate >information about a Pennsylvania Railroad Calendar which featured a >photo of the line he worked on. This was from the late '30's to early >40's and showed a train crossing the Susquehanna R. on a long stone arch >bridge. If anyone can identify the year of the calendar and may have a >copy for sale I would appreciate a reply. 1950, Grif Teller, entitled "Crossroads of Commerce". --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Nixon" Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:48:04 EST5EDT Subject: PRR Calendar Request Content-Length: 1216 Saw this in newsgroups, maybe someone can help: Date sent: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 07:33:25 -0500 (EST) From: bnixon+@pitt.edu (Bill Nixon) To: bnixon+@pitt.edu Subject: (fwd) Looking for Pennsy Calendar From: cookst@ptld.uswest.net Subject: Looking for Pennsy Calendar Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 01:11:18 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.railroad X-Authenticated-Sender: cookst@ptld.uswest.net My dad worked as a fireman on the Pennsy in 1945. I am trying to locate information about a Pennsylvania Railroad Calendar which featured a photo of the line he worked on. This was from the late '30's to early 40's and showed a train crossing the Susquehanna R. on a long stone arch bridge. If anyone can identify the year of the calendar and may have a copy for sale I would appreciate a reply. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Fwd: PRRT&HS Web Page (fwd) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 97 11:44:22 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1583 On 11/7/97 12:21 PM, Mark D Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote: >> One-man-show web sites can be just as content-rich and interesting as >> those created by a large staff. It just depends on the person developing it, >> and the value he/she puts on maintaining and updating the site. > >_Can_ be is the operant term. According to the folks at the Friends of the Railroad Museum in Strasburg, the same guy did their site...and it's nice! It's new online, so there hasn't been a real need for updating. The PRRT&HS site, however, is nothing more than a billboard. As for "one-man-shows", I'm glad to have full staff. Let's see, there's "jbritton@dsop.com", "jerry@dsop.com", "listmaster@dsop.com", "postmaster@dsop.com", "hostmaster@dsop.com", "webmaster@dsop.com", and "sales@dsop.com". Did I miss any? ;-) Actually, I'm getting very little done online...and anticipate much of the same through the end of the month...until Jr get's into a feeding/sleeping schedule! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Fwd: PRRT&HS Web Page (fwd) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 11:21:38 EST Content-Length: 649 > One-man-show web sites can be just as content-rich and interesting as > those created by a large staff. It just depends on the person developing it, > and the value he/she puts on maintaining and updating the site. _Can_ be is the operant term. :-) -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Fwd: PRRT&HS Web Page (fwd) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 11:48:21 EST Content-Length: 1377 > According to the folks at the Friends of the Railroad Museum in > Strasburg, the same guy did their site...and it's nice! It's new online, > so there hasn't been a real need for updating. > > The PRRT&HS site, however, is nothing more than a billboard. > > As for "one-man-shows", I'm glad to have full staff. Let's see, there's > "jbritton@dsop.com", "jerry@dsop.com", "listmaster@dsop.com", > "postmaster@dsop.com", "hostmaster@dsop.com", "webmaster@dsop.com", and > "sales@dsop.com". Did I miss any? ;-) Yes, you did. Your site and mine are _not_ "one man shows". Organizationally, yes. But content-wise, no. Many people have contributed to both yours and mine. To my knowledge, and by my impression through speaking with George Burbage, the PRRTHS web site has been _entirely_ a one-man show. Given my several offers of help and the deafening silence in return, I can only assume that there is no desire to make it any more than a one-man show. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:35:46 -0500 (EST) From: Hal6963@aol.com Subject: Middle Division Boundry Content-Length: 471 Hi all, Does anyone out there know the boundry of the Middle Division in 1915? Harold ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Middle Division Boundry (fwd) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 15:59:54 EST Content-Length: 1100 > Does anyone out there know the bound[a]ry of the Middle Division in 1915? > Harold Weren't we One Big Happy Gummint Railroad in 1915? :-) How exact are you looking for? The boundary of the Middle Division has "traditionally" been the western end of BANKS interlocking, just west of Harrisburg. By "traditionally" I mean that it was there for many years. I don't know off the top of my head what it was in 1915. I believe I have the relevant employee TT at home but want to make sure you need this info that badly. :-) If you do, email me privately for my home phone # -- unless you have me hangin' onto the phone, there's no way I'll sit still long enough to get the info for you. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: NEW QUEST FOR DUPES -- 11/7/97 Date: Fri, 7 Nov 97 19:53:20 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 943 Okay, just made another change on the server to try and resolve the dupes issue. If you receive more than ONE COPY OF THIS POST, let me know asap, to this address. I do not need to know how many copies, nor the times, nor if you receive other dupes. Just let me know if you receive a dupe of this one. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 97 18:30:56 CST Subject: Would you believe it?? Content-Length: 993 Hi, gang, Was recently going through an OFFICIAL RAILWAY EQUIPMENT REGISTER for 1996 and guess how many cars were still listed as in service with PRR reporting marks? Amazingly enough, about 35. Hard to believe that almost 30 years after the end of the PRR cars in regular revenue service are still out there. There appeared to be about 10 different classes - COOL!! I can remember seeing a yard switcher at Enola about 1982 still in PRR paint scheme. PRR forever, George Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 23:58:33 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Subject: Re: Would you believe it?? Content-Length: 859 At 06:30 PM 11/7/97 CST, George Pierson wrote: >Was recently going through an OFFICIAL RAILWAY EQUIPMENT REGISTER for 1996 >and guess how many cars were still listed as in service with PRR reporting >marks? Amazingly enough, about 35. Yes! An 80-some foot mill gon went by my window at my last job; it was in the middle of a string of CR gons, all full of scrap. My jaw made a dent in the floor, and of its own accord started cursing my lack of a camera. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 21:10:02 -0900 From: Kevin & Maureen Subject: PRR Vehicles Content-Length: 719 Hey everyone. I am looking for any photographs or slides people might have that would include PRR vehicles (ie: trucks, cars, tractors, MOW vehicles). I will pay for dupes to be made, or take donations of copies, etc. Kevin J. Tully C.E.O. Foxburg, Mt. Jewett & Corydon Railroad Co. "Pennsylvania Railroad Into The Future" ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 07:40:30 -0500 From: jlevine@mcls.rochester.lib.ny.us Subject: Pennsy Diesels Content-Length: 620 I model O guage (high rail) and I am looking for some good E and F units in the Pennsylvania cover. Williams seems to have a nice looking product. Does anyone know about this or any other models to consider. Thanks. Jeff Levine ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 8 Nov 97 8:28:32 EST From: Subject: fwd: PRR artwork Content-Length: 3970 ------------- Original Text From: K KOLLAR@DS@193SOW, on 11/8/97 8:14 AM: To: smtp[PRR-Talk@dsop] Good morning everyone, Last week sometime, someone made mention of a new piece of PRR artwork being sold by Mike Danneman. Can anyone provide additional details, ie, subject, locomotive depicted, is it available for sale yet, if so, how do you get one???? Any help would be appreciated. If this new one is as good or better than the one I currently have, "PRR Sharks on the Roll", it is sure to be an excellent piece of work. Kris Kollar Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 09:03:24 -0500 (EST) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: BM-60 ... R60 Content-Length: 497 The description sounds like a R60 reefer. R60 were numbered 5701 - 5736. It is definitely not a BM60. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 10:42:42 -0500 From: "CronesRacing@disknet.com" Subject: Decals Content-Length: 484 Can anyone tell me if there is a set of dyr transfer decals for pensy steam engines? Thanks Jeff ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:19:54 -0500 (EST) From: Hal6963@aol.com Subject: Middle Division Boundrys Content-Length: 519 Hello All, Does anyone know the boundrys of the Middle Division based in Altoona for the year 1915 or there abouts? Thanks Harold ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 13:04:52 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: Decals Content-Length: 1498 Clove House, P.O. Box 62, Sebastopol, Calif., advertises: 7784-02 Steam Locomotive, For Shorter Tenders, "Lines used West of Pittsburgh, Before May 1939, Gold Lettering. 7784-03 Steam Locomotive, For Shorter Tenders, Pre-1939, Gold Lettering. 7784-04 Steam Locomotive, For Longer Tenders, Pre-1939, Gold Lettering. 7784-05 Steam Locomotive, For Shorter Tenders, 1939-1953, Gold Lettering. 7784-06 Steam Locomotive, For Longer Tenders, 1939-1953, Gold Lettering. 7784-07 Steam Locomotive, For Shorter Tenders, 1953-On, Buff Lettering. 7784-08 Steam Locomotive, For Longer Tenders, 1953-On, Buff Lettering. All available in N, HO, S and O scales. All in their "**" price group which translates to: N=$1.75 HO=$2.00 S=$2.50 O=$3.25 Please note that my catalog was given to me by my dealer when they had to stop offering CH products and is circa '91/'92 (CH #7). Prices quoted may be dealers prices. Many dealers are unable to order from CH due to high minimum: $100.00+. Last report I heard was that they "may" only deal direct now. Anyone have any recent info on CH? Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: DUPLICATE REPORTS - ANYONE? Date: Sun, 9 Nov 97 14:17:05 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 855 Bill Nixon was the only person that reported any DUPES of my message concerning DUPES from yesterday. He reported two copies. Since I cannot duplicate this problem locally or where I work, I depend on your feedback. Is ANYONE else still receiving dupes? ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:29:45 -0500 (EST) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: Subj: Re: PRR Today (Was: Re: Pennsy passenger units) Content-Length: 1552 In a message dated 97-08-23 09:55:55 EDT, shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG writes: << > I suspect that if the PRR had survived the Allegheny Yard and Same Rea line > (both of which were under design at the time of the great demise) would have > been built. Allegheny yard was to have been near but not in Altoona. The > yard would handle all long distance freight movements and by-pass the Altoona > complex. Trains would have been classed at Conway, Allegheny and Enola. The > Sam Rea line was intended to by-pass Pittsburgh. this would have been the > primary route for transcontential service (TOFC Containers tanks cars etc.) > no tunnels, all new construction with adequate clearance. I had not previously ever seen reference to either of these; They sound interesting, if not good "what-if" model ideas... Any place where one might "read more about it"? >> This is an old posting for which I have finally located the referrence material. The Allegheny Yard project is covered in the April 1978 Rails Northeast. Sam Rea by-pass in The Keystone Vol.19 No. 2 Summer 1986 Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: SEND DUPE REPORTS TO britton@pit-magnus.com Date: Mon, 10 Nov 97 06:50:20 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 774 Still no dupe reports! If anyone has any to report today, please send them to my work address, which is "britton@pit-magnus.com". Thanks. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 07:46:52 -0500 From: "Dave 'Fresh' Freshwater" Subject: Re: Would you believe it?? Content-Length: 1191 Dennis Rockwell wrote: > > At 06:30 PM 11/7/97 CST, George Pierson wrote: > > >Was recently going through an OFFICIAL RAILWAY EQUIPMENT REGISTER for 1996 > >and guess how many cars were still listed as in service with PRR reporting > >marks? Amazingly enough, about 35. > > Yes! An 80-some foot mill gon went by my window at my last job; it was in > the middle of a string of CR gons, all full of scrap. My jaw made a dent in > the floor, and of its own accord started cursing my lack of a camera. > > Dennis > I found a PRR flat carrying a load of scrap to the electric furnace at Lukens Steel, Coatesvile, PA, on Thursday during the MER tour. Not sure if it was in captive service at the plant or not, though. Dave Freshwater North Potomac, MD ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Pullman Volume 4 For Sale Date: Mon, 10 Nov 97 10:35:15 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 830 If you REALLY want a copy of the Pullman-Standard Library Vol. 4, there is one for sale on eBay. However, the current bid is at $75!!! http://iguana.ebay2.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1839855 --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Products at WISE (Milwaukee) show Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:03:40 -0600 Content-Length: 2100 3 items and a question. 1. The American Model Buiders laser kit for the PRR combo freight-passenger station is being produced as we speak. It is a beautiful kit. The question: the show sample was painted in the PRR buff (similar to butter, yellow, whatever) color which I presume is correct for this prototype. I have been painting my structures with the light building color (sort of khaki, in fact that is what I use to represent it, one of the Pollyscale military khaki colors 50/50 with white). I do all the same to keep a family resemblence. Were the various paint jobs of Pennsy structures consistent within a division? or was there a considerable mix? 2. In case anyone still needs a tuscan E7B, I noticed Lombard hobbies out of Lombard, Illinois had two or three (I believe you can get their address from the back of MRR or RMC- if not, contact me direct and I can look it up when I am at home). 3. I purchased a new video, "Broadway Limited", for $25 . I am about three fourths through it and "Siskel and Ebert" Bob would give it a thumbs down. Very little new material pre-Penn Central. T1 shots were from the Pennsy promo films and the 38 Broadway clip was from the movie, "Broadway Limited" (I got better reproduction by taping it off late night TV). The shots of the 50th anniversary in 1952 out of Union Station, Chicago, are terrible quality. Heavy emphasis on the grimmest days of Penn Central and the rainbow Amtrak era. Only clip of interest to me was an interior shot of Mountain or Tower View. That 10 seconds wasn't worth $25 though and I have a feeling I have seen it somewhere before, also. Regards Bob Zoeller Fox Point, WI ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 16:51:51 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: PRR Vehicles Content-Length: 1002 Greetings to Kevin and the group, Try _Pensy Power III_ as one source of information. It has a section on PRR's trucking and bus operations. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 09:10 PM 11/7/97 -0900, Kevin & Maureen wrote: >Hey everyone. > > I am looking for any photographs or slides people might have >that would include PRR vehicles (ie: trucks, cars, tractors, MOW >vehicles). I will pay for dupes to be made, or take donations of >copies, etc. > >Kevin J. Tully >C.E.O. >Foxburg, Mt. Jewett & Corydon Railroad Co. >"Pennsylvania Railroad Into The Future" ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don R. Millbranth" Subject: : "PENNSYLVANIA LINES" Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 21:08:16 -0600 Content-Length: 918 Anyone have any idea what line constituted the "PENNSYLVANIA LINES? This is the wording painted to the right of the door (on a boxcar) in one line, under which is the number 576225. In the upper left corner of the car side is a circle painted white with a star in it....the star being the same color as the car, or so it seems in the old print/photo... I assume it was the PRR, or a branch of it, as the lettering is typical PRR. Your comments/suggestions are welcome.. don ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:42:56 -0500 From: jlrosen Subject: Re: : "PENNSYLVANIA LINES" Content-Length: 1106 Don R. Millbranth wrote: > > Anyone have any idea what line constituted the "PENNSYLVANIA LINES? > This is the wording painted to the right of the door (on a boxcar) in one > line, under which is the number 576225. In the upper left corner of the car > side is a circle painted white with a star in it....the star being the same > color as the car, or so it seems in the old print/photo... > I assume it was the PRR, or a branch of it, as the lettering is typical > PRR. > Your comments/suggestions are welcome.. > don Don, Pennsylvania Lines were the lines west of Pittsburgh. Untill 1920-21 they were seprate from though owned by the PRR. John W Rosenbauer ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 23:46:38 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: HO X-32 50' boxes Content-Length: 934 Hello fellow PRR-Talkers, Got some information about the X-32 50' round roof boxcars which Central Hobby Supply is taking rerun reservations for with the confirmation for my DGLE E7 order; If anyone is interested I can post it, but not til Wednesday, while I'm sitting around when Bell *finally* finishes installing the T1 in my house, the same which was expected to be installed April 15, 1996! No really, we mean it this time! -D (of course, now that that's almost done, we found leaks in the roof!) ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Port Road vs. Northern Central Date: Tue, 11 Nov 97 09:30:56 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1353 In preparation for modeling the Northern Central Railway thru York, Pa., I am assembling lists of scheduled trains thru the city, based on available timetables. My era is mid-1940s to mid-1950s. I seem to have enough data on passenger operations. It is data on freight operations that I am lacking. On "Keystone Crossings" I have a 1952 Freight Schedule. Most of the labeled freights in and out of Baltimore that go to Harrisburg or Enola seem to go via the Port Road. Was this always the case? I thought a "decent" amount of freight moved up the NCR line well after the Atglen & Susquehanna (aka Port Road) was put in. Or was the NCR through York mostly passenger in my era...except for local freights? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Have Dupes Subsided? Date: Tue, 11 Nov 97 09:52:38 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1073 I've gotten only two reports of dupes since my change on Friday night. I am left wondering if people quit notifying me or if the problem is largely fixed and the aforementioned dupes were just flukes. Can anyone who was getting hoards of dupes tell me if the duping has subsided? Again, I do not need to know what messages or how many, or what the times were...just if it is still happening at all, or any less than before. Thanks. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Port Road vs. Northern Central (fwd) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:15:34 EST Content-Length: 2017 Jerry, list administrativia: can you get the list to change the "Reply-To:" header to "prr-talk@dsop.com"? This way one could "R"eply directly to the list. > In preparation for modeling the Northern Central Railway thru York, Pa., > I am assembling lists of scheduled trains thru the city, based on > available timetables. My era is mid-1940s to mid-1950s. > I seem to have enough data on passenger operations. It is data on freight > operations that I am lacking. > > On "Keystone Crossings" I have a 1952 Freight Schedule. Most of the > labeled freights in and out of Baltimore that go to Harrisburg or Enola > seem to go via the Port Road. Was this always the case? I thought a > "decent" amount of freight moved up the NCR line well after the Atglen & > Susquehanna (aka Port Road) was put in. Did we already review the schedules I have? > Or was the NCR through York mostly passenger in my era...except for local > freights? The NCR was a washboard near the Pa-Md state line, whereas the NEC (not called that, then) plus Port Road were river-level. I would think the Port Road was the better of the two, and that the NC saw mostly local traffic. But I'm no expert. There _are_ a bunch of trains on my freight schedules, like B-2, that don't list anything between Harrisburg and Baltimore. But something tells me they'd list York if the train passed thru. I just did a quick scan and found no trains on the NC in my 1960 freight schedules. If anyone has schedules from other years (Dan C.?) I'd be happy to transcribe and post. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Reply To Date: Tue, 11 Nov 97 11:21:05 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1764 On 11/11/97 11:15 AM, Mark D Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote: >can you get the list to change the "Reply-To:" header to "prr-talk@dsop.com"? >This way one could "R"eply directly to the list. No. I'm guessing that you have an "older" e-mail client. All major current clients support both REPLY TO and REPLY TO ALL fields. "PRR-Talk" is configured so that REPLY TO goes to the original sender only; REPLY TO ALL goes to the list. There is an option whereas both fields would go to the list - for addressing the issue with older clients - but that results in replies intended for the sender only going to the list accidentally. Or, for those that see the reply being pre-addressed to the list, they need to copy and paste the sender's address into their reply if they want to reply only to the sender. The "old" list used the second form and I recieved numerous complaints. The "new" list (since the summer) uses the new form, which I feel is actually more logical. However, I can sympathize with the frustration some users (a minority) might have when their e-mail client does not support both fields. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Neat Item at eBay Auction Date: Tue, 11 Nov 97 11:47:49 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1680 This is a neat item currently for sale at eBay: Rare PRR Train Ticket!!!LOOK!! Item #1896723 Started 11/11 06:48:12 Pacific Standard Time (AM) Category Collectibles:Railroadiana Ends 11/18 06:48:12 Pacific Standard Time (AM) This is one of the nicest train tickets I have seen in quite a while!!! It is a mint unused ticket to the 1955 Army Navy game at Phila Municipal Stadium on 11/26/55. It is a one day only ticket, and not many were ever produced. The front features a great picture of at least twelve PRR locomotives and cars loading up passengers for the game! It also bears three unused stubs, two for Pullman Car passage to and from the game, as well as the unused Agents stub (normally torn off and thrown away! The total price for passage...$3.44. This ticket is from the personal collection of the gentleman that designed these tickets for the Globe Ticket Co of Phila from 1930-1970. Don't miss out on this very rare ticket in mint unused condition! Buyer pays $3.00 shipping within the US. Best of Luck!!! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Reply To Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:57:17 EST Content-Length: 2676 > >can you get the list to change the "Reply-To:" header to "prr-talk@dsop.com"? > >This way one could "R"eply directly to the list. > > No. > > I'm guessing that you have an "older" e-mail client. All major current > clients support both REPLY TO and REPLY TO ALL fields. Let's see ... Netscape for Unix does indeed reply to you, while cc:ing me and the list. (But I find it damned inconvenient and slow. Good ol' text-based "elm" lets me get my email stuff done much faster and in some ways is more flexible. So I use it. "elm" is a Unix program for those who don't know. Remember Unix? The guys that _invented_ email? :-) > "PRR-Talk" is configured so that REPLY TO goes to the original sender > only; REPLY TO ALL goes to the list. Gotcha. > There is an option whereas both fields would go to the list - for > addressing the issue with older clients - but that results in replies > intended for the sender only going to the list accidentally. Or, for > those that see the reply being pre-addressed to the list, they need to > copy and paste the sender's address into their reply if they want to > reply only to the sender. Understood. (Not tough on an X terminal, quite frankly - and the number of time I at least want to respond to the _individual_ versus the list is quite low. Plus most individuals I respond to I already have a 4-character alias made up for ...) > The "old" list used the second form and I recieved numerous complaints. > The "new" list (since the summer) uses the new form, which I feel is > actually more logical. Sure. We really should upgrade to a new version of elm, I guess, and this may come with HPUX 10. OTOH, replying _both_ to author and list is a bit tedious, too, as I often get double replies to things I post, once to me directly, once via the list. (But of course, the sender's email software has no way of knowing if I'm on the list and will therefore get a copy via the list.) Compromise, compromise, compromise. More of this and I'll be ready to be a politician. :-) ... just kidding ... relax, everybody ... As this is getting way off list topic, I'll cease and desist, and stop, and quit, and even halt, now. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Nixon" Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:24:16 EST5EDT Subject: Neat ticket Content-Length: 912 Isn't this the same scene on the 1955 PRR Calendar? >This is one of the nicest train tickets I have seen in quite a while!!! >It is a mint unused ticket to the 1955 Army Navy game at Phila Municipal >Stadium on 11/26/55 > The front features a great picture of at least twelve PRR >locomotives and cars loading up passengers for the game! > This ticket is from the personal >collection of the gentleman that designed these tickets for the Globe >Ticket Co of Phila from 1930-1970 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:40:13 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Re: Reply To Content-Length: 2512 Greetings, Am running Eudora lite ver 3.03. When I click on reply to all that's just what it does, replies to all. one copy to M.e. Bej, one to Prr talk and one to Britton@pit......... At 11:21 AM 11/11/97 -0400, Jerry Britton wrote: >On 11/11/97 11:15 AM, Mark D Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote: > >>can you get the list to change the "Reply-To:" header to "prr-talk@dsop.com"? >>This way one could "R"eply directly to the list. > >No. > >I'm guessing that you have an "older" e-mail client. All major current >clients support both REPLY TO and REPLY TO ALL fields. > >"PRR-Talk" is configured so that REPLY TO goes to the original sender >only; REPLY TO ALL goes to the list. > >There is an option whereas both fields would go to the list - for >addressing the issue with older clients - but that results in replies >intended for the sender only going to the list accidentally. Or, for >those that see the reply being pre-addressed to the list, they need to >copy and paste the sender's address into their reply if they want to >reply only to the sender. > >The "old" list used the second form and I recieved numerous complaints. >The "new" list (since the summer) uses the new form, which I feel is >actually more logical. > >However, I can sympathize with the frustration some users (a minority) >might have when their e-mail client does not support both fields. > > >--------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator >Progressive Information Technologies >britton@pit-magnus.com >http://www.pit-magnus.com >1 JPEG = 1K words > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > Sincerely, S.A. McCALL hosam ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: HO X-32 50' boxes From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 97 12:56:03 -0500 Content-Length: 797 >Hello fellow PRR-Talkers, > >. . ., while I'm sitting around when Bell *finally* finishes >installing the T1 in my house, the same which was expected to be installed >April 15, 1996! No really, we mean it this time! > >-D - ----- Derrick, Does that mean you will have high speed communication or high speed steam passenger service? ;-) regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 13:02:05 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: HO X-32 50' boxes Content-Length: 587 > Does that mean you will have high speed communication or high speed steam > passenger service? ;-) I was hoping for both, but beggars can't be choosers. -d ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:03:17 -0500 (EST) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: : "PENNSYLVANIA LINES" Content-Length: 571 Pennsylvania Lines was all roads west of Pittsburgh which were part of the Pennsy system. The two primary roads were the PFtW&C and PCC&StL. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 97 14:12:52 CST Subject: ORER on PRR Content-Length: 2071 Hi, everyone, You asked for more on PRR cars still in service so here it is. I'll give the AAR Class, type of car, PRR Class if given, car number(s), and number of such cars in service. XL Box 88256 1 XP Box X60 110246 1 HT Hop H43a 225000-226499 2 HT Hop H43b 226500-229499 4 HT Hop H43c 229500-230499 1 LO CHop H42 260001-260089 4 LO CHop H42a 260091-260118 1 LO CHop H44 260121-260410 4 LO CHop H50 261145-261244 1 LO CHop H49 261245-261369 1 GB Gon G31l 371950-373949 1 GB Gon G35 378450-379149 2 GBS Gon G43 387326-387925 1 GBS Gon G44 442450-442649 129 FM Flat F41 4693000-469999 33 FM Flat 469369, 469409, 469412, 469584, 469707 5 FM Flat 469610, 469871 2 FM Flat 474063 1 FM Flat F30d 475300-475549 1 FM Flat F47 480350-480374 9 FM Flat 480366, 480369 2 GBS Gon 592193 1 GB Gon G31k 612000-614998 1 GB Gon 619318 1 GB Gon 620381 1 HT Hop 666573 1 I hope I've got the right numbers - I've skippede a lot of the details of the cars' dimensions and capacity which are listed. This is all from a 1996 OFFICIAL RAILWAY EQUIPMENT REGISTER. There's more here than I realized. Some of the other Fallen Flags, like the Wabash and Nickel Plate, also show up - amazing! PRR forever, George Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:41:18 -0600 (CST) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: Detailing an I-1 Content-Length: 1388 I am just about done superdetailed my I-1. The following questions pertain specifically to the I-1, but probably pertain to other engines as well. 1. The cab interior of PRR engines was an "apple green" color, which, probably means the roof, front and side walls and the seats. Was the boiler inside the cab painted DGLE? What about the backhead? The cab floors, from what I know, were usually oily black. Were the floors painted any particular color? I don't see these in the painting specifications I have. 2. Were the injectors of all PRR engines mounted on the backhead? Or were some mounted on the side of the boiler just behind the front cab wall? 3. Did the PRR ever paint valve handles red? 4. Was the reach rod always connected to a wheel in the cab, or did some engines use a bar? Thanks. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:14:30 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: Have Dupes Subsided? Content-Length: 2491 Jerry Britton wrote: > > I've gotten only two reports of dupes since my change on Friday night. > > I am left wondering if people quit notifying me or if the problem is > largely fixed and the aforementioned dupes were just flukes. > > Can anyone who was getting hoards of dupes tell me if the duping has > subsided? > > Again, I do not need to know what messages or how many, or what the > times > were...just if it is still happening at all, or any less than before. > Thanks. > > --------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > Progressive Information Technologies > britton@pit-magnus.com > http://www.pit-magnus.com > 1 JPEG = 1K words I no longer receive dupes from this list. Jerry, you are a prince. Until today, I was a member of a Department 56 list. Some of the Department 56 building look great with my O-gauge PRR layout. Members of the list received their first mailing in a couple of months last week. About 10 decided to unsubscribe. They replied to the messsage with the word "unsubscribe". Another 10 folks replied to each "unsubscribe" message with various questions, rude remarks, or threats of legal action. Most had not the foggiest idea what was going on, just blind replies and escalations. A horrendous internet food fight was in progress. The host finally had to shut down the list. He had many phone calls besides the messages that actually reached him. He apparently was not a subscriber to his own list. This all could have been avoided by having appropriate footnotes like Jerry has on this list. I just want to say how great it is to have Jerry's help in all of this. He really tries to fix the few problems we have seen. I do not know what grief he has received from list members. The conversation about problems in the list itself has been remarkably civilized compared to these other areas. I guess PRR fans are just a great group of people. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:18:28 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: Port Road vs. Northern Central (fwd) Content-Length: 2517 Mark D Bej wrote: > > Jerry, > list administrativia: > can you get the list to change the "Reply-To:" header to > "prr-talk@dsop.com"? > This way one could "R"eply directly to the list. > > > In preparation for modeling the Northern Central Railway thru York, > Pa., > > I am assembling lists of scheduled trains thru the city, based on > > available timetables. My era is mid-1940s to mid-1950s. > > I seem to have enough data on passenger operations. It is data on > freight > > operations that I am lacking. > > > > On "Keystone Crossings" I have a 1952 Freight Schedule. Most of the > > labeled freights in and out of Baltimore that go to Harrisburg or > Enola > > seem to go via the Port Road. Was this always the case? I thought a > > "decent" amount of freight moved up the NCR line well after the > Atglen & > > Susquehanna (aka Port Road) was put in. > > Did we already review the schedules I have? > > > Or was the NCR through York mostly passenger in my era...except for > local > > freights? > > The NCR was a washboard near the Pa-Md state line, whereas the NEC > (not > called that, then) plus Port Road were river-level. I would think the > Port Road was the better of the two, and that the NC saw mostly local > traffic. But I'm no expert. > > There _are_ a bunch of trains on my freight schedules, like B-2, that > don't list anything between Harrisburg and Baltimore. But something > tells me they'd list York if the train passed thru. > > I just did a quick scan and found no trains on the NC in my 1960 > freight > schedules. If anyone has schedules from other years (Dan C.?) I'd be > happy to transcribe and post. > > -- > Mark > I hate to disagree, but I must. I just posted about a food fight on the Department 56 list. I would rather REPLY just goes to the sender and REPLY TO SENDER AND ALL RECEIPIENTS get the mailing list. It could help keep NET NEWBIES from drowning the list with UNSUBSCRIBE and complaints. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Have Dupes Subsided? Date: Wed, 12 Nov 97 06:56:45 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1485 On 11/11/97 9:14 PM, Larry P. Morgan (lpmorgan@iquest.net) wrote: >This all could have been avoided by having appropriate footnotes like >Jerry has on this list. A new feature since the summer. Yes, it has been very helpful. For those in the know, the detailed headers in MOST listserv's messages include unsubscribe info...but it requires knowing where to look and most people don't. > >I just want to say how great it is to have Jerry's help in all of this. >He really tries to fix the few problems we have seen. Thanks, and you're welcome. >I do not know what grief he has received from list members. Some, not much. 8-) >The conversation about problems in the list itself has been remarkably >civilized compared to these other areas. >I guess PRR fans are just a great group of people. Sure are...the best! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: DUPLICATES -- Case Closed Date: Wed, 12 Nov 97 09:25:36 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1597 I am considering the duplication problem a closed case. Having identified a source and eliminated it, and verifying with numerous individuals on the list that dupes have not been coming through, I am considering the problem rectified. 8-) However, there are cases where you may occassionally receive two copies of a message. One is due to a mail server error somewhere along the line. This is not listserv related. It is random and scarce (per volume). Another case is when you send a message to the list and someone responds TO ALL which would send a copy to you, the original sender, and to the list. The list would provide the second copy. This is normal. Again, thank you for all of your patient sleuth assistance. It was a tough bug to track down and it has now been recognized by the router software publisher. A fix is being created. However, I will stick with the existing version unless there is a clear reason for me to upgrade. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Port Road vs. Northern Central (long) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 97 10:39:13 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 4833 On 11/12/97 10:56 AM, Mark D Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote: >NC actually has a river valley to follow out of Balto, and York >Haven to the Susquehanna; but between there it was up and down. > >Even at that it was not _that_ bad. There were no helper districts >to my knowledge. Actually, there was a helper district, but I presume only until larger HP locos became available. There were helpers in service in the 1910s, as the "History of Mount Wolf" documents. (Mount Wolf is in York County, between York and Wago Junction.) Helpers were stationed at Cly. There was a wye and service shed there. The NC paralled the Atglen & Susquehanna as both lines moved southward. Just a mile or so south of Cly was Tork Haven, then another two miles or so to Wago Junction. At Wago, the NC turned inland, via a sharp curve. The line ascended rapidly as it winds back and forth. It then goes through Mount Wolf. About a mile south of there was a station stop called "Summit" which is shown on some timetables. It is here that the helpers cut off. (Passenger trains didn't need helpers.) Going downgrade, trains would enter Emigsville after another 3-4 miles, then another 5 miles or so to York. According to track charts, "Summit" is the high point between Baltimore and Harrisburg on the NC line. > >Semi-related to PRR: Why is York where it is? ANyone know the >history of York enough to describe why it was founded there in the >first place, and what caused it to grow into the industrial center >it is? Why did the NC choose that route, and not make a beeline for >Havre de Grace and the Susquehanna? Gunnarson's book "The History of the Northern Central Railway" explains it quite well. The Pennsylvania canal system offloaded from boats on the Susquehanna River to the Columbia & Philadelphia Railroad (forerunner to PRR) at Columbia, Pa. All goods went to the Philadelphia market. Baltimore wanted to tap into this market by cutting the route off around York Haven, north of Columbia on the river. They built northward out of Baltimore via the Baltimore & Susquehanna RR. Pennsylvania legislators wouldn't let them build into Pa., so a Pennsylvania corporation (owned by the B&S) was established to build the line. It was the York & Maryland Line RR and connected the B&S to York. When the line reached York it hit another political roadblock. To achieve immediate satisfaction, the Wrightsville, York, & Gettysburg RR was established -- also operated by the B&S. It only built from York east to the Susquehanna, where track was laid on an existing bridge to Columbia. The link was made! The B&S then chartered the Susquehanna RR to build north out of York. They made a beeline to Wago Junction and York Haven, which did indeed become a "port" for its time. The town grew unbelievably! The bad news was that by this time the PRR was established and was killing off the canal systems. The B&S continued to build north to Bridgeport (now Lemoyne) and accessed Harrisburg via the Cumberland Valley RR bridge there. Passenger trains continued up the east side of the river; freights up the west. At Marysville, the Susquehanna RR crossed the PRR main at grade. Passenger trains from Harrisburg crossed back to the west side of the river via the PRR's first bridge at Rockville. A mile later all Susquehanna RR traffic crossed back to the east side via another bridge and continued north on the east side of the river. At this point the B&S lines were seeking to build northward to the coal fields. However, they now were financially involvent. The four lines were merged and became the Northern Central Railway!!! The new bridge at Rockville was a joint PRR/NCR project. It allowed removal of the crossing at grade, which was the benefit to the PRR. The Enola yards were actually built on NCR land and were also a joint project. (By this time the PRR owned much of the NCR stock, though the line was not yet leased by the PRR. This happened circa 1912.) All this will be online at "KC" when I return to editing the "Hobo's Guide". Now what was the original question? ;-) --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Port Road vs. Northern Central (fwd) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 9:56:04 EST Content-Length: 2670 Regarding the discussion of trains on the NC versus Port Road lines (posted here with Dan Cupper's permission, so don't y'all complain): Mark: > > I just did a quick scan and found no trains on the NC in my 1960 > > freight schedules. If anyone has schedules from other years > > (Dan C.?) I'd be happy to transcribe and post. Dan Cupper: > Your suspicion is right. I don't have any freight schedules on > hand to document this, but the vast majority of freight, certainly > before 1938 and absolutely since that date, went via Port Road > (electrification). NCR was older than Port Road, obviously, so it > was there first (and traffic-generating industries sprang up along > it) but its washboard profile, as you put it, made it a liability > for anything resembling through service. There's a reason it went > downhill so rapidly after WWII -- as the passenger traffic on > there dried up to almost nothing, the absolute number of train > movements plummeted, despite the fact that York was an industrial, > traffic-generating center. I seem to recall someone saying that by > that time, there was one local freight a day, and can't remember > if there was a through freight or not. Logically speaking, I can't > think of a good reason for there to have been one with the > electrified, river-grade Port Road standing by so close. Me again: NC actually has a river valley to follow out of Balto, and York Haven to the Susquehanna; but between there it was up and down. Even at that it was not _that_ bad. There were no helper districts to my knowledge. Anyone that's ever paralleled the Fort Wayne, on the other hand, would be amazed that a major main line existed with such hills on it, and that the PRR, for all its wealth, did not build a couple of DL&W-style viaducts across strategic river valleys (and they'd not need to be nearly the size of Nicholson, either...) Semi-related to PRR: Why is York where it is? ANyone know the history of York enough to describe why it was founded there in the first place, and what caused it to grow into the industrial center it is? Why did the NC choose that route, and not make a beeline for Havre de Grace and the Susquehanna? -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:16:19 +0000 Subject: Ultimate diesel list? From: locoshop@juno.com (Jeremy C Helms) Content-Length: 1558 Has anyone ever done the ultimate diesel list? What I mean by this would be a compilation of where to find pictures of specific PRR diesels. I am a of the younger generation that is unable to remember the Pennsy because I was born after it was combined into PC(shudder). I am really liking the PRR from 1940 to about February 1, 1968. In order to model the PRR I have to totally refer to books because there are no memories of it. Has there ever been an exhaustive listing of diesel picture? In the terms I have seen there is on at the end of PDY V.4. I was wondering about the task of making on of all sorts of different books. Compiling the list from the whole PDY series, Pennsy Power Vol. 2 & 3, the newer Wither's series of PRR diesel books. Please if there are any other greatly beneficial books on Pennsy or its diesels let me know--I am searching. I was wondering if this had ever been done cause if it had not I was going to do this myself for me and any other person who would and could use such a list. I want some feedback on this--PLEASE!!! Jeremy Helms Pennsylvania Railroad into the Future ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:07:40 -0500 (EST) From: VVA249@aol.com Subject: Re: : "PENNSYLVANIA LINES" Content-Length: 1495 Unasked Question re: "PENNSYLVANIA LINES" was "WHY" ANSWER: had to do with 19th Century corporate "rules" The PRR was, of course a PENNSYLVANIA Corporation and had to establish a seperate Corporation(s) to operate west of Pa - although, I believe, that "Lines West" began at west end of Pittsburg(h) station NEW YORK CENTRAL had a similar situation - west of Buffalo lines had their equipment lettered "New York Central SYSTEM" - and most likely B & O and others had similar set ups - Railroads operating through TEXAS all had to establish seperate corporations for that State - regulated by the Texas Railroad Commission - which still exists Changes in Corporate regulation - after the Railroads were returned to private ownership allowed railroads to consolidate corporations - although many lines such as the PFtW & C continued to exist - on paper - as seperate corporations The P&LE was never fully merged into NYC and the "little Giant" temporariliy regained it's independence in the PC merger Dick Ross ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:54:22 -0500 (EST) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: ORER on PRR MISSING CLASSES Content-Length: 980 In a message dated 97-11-12 16:03:53 EST, George.Pierson@trnty.edu writes: SNIP XL Box 88256 1 X56 FM Flat 469369, 469409, 469412, 469584, 469707 69610, 469871 F41 (VARIUOS SUBCLASSES) FM Flat 474063 1 F30F FM Flat 480366, 480369 F47 GBS Gon 592193 1 NOT A PRR NUMBER UNLESS MOW May be PC renumber with PRR rpt marks GB Gon 619318 1 G36E GB Gon 620381 1 G36E HT Hop 666573 1 H39 Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 23:39:43 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: NCR freights Content-Length: 3995 Hello all... This message is mainly mean't for Jerry... A while back i received some info from Ivan Frantz of the NCR chapter. He sent me copies from a PRR employees timetable..#11,sept.28th,1947 from page 99 of the timetable it lists arranged freight train service. below is a listing of trains,times and stations... Jerry i will make you a copy and get it in the mail to you...also you might want to contact Mr Frantz and get the same info he gave me. Westward and Northward B- YE- F- B- F- F- EC- F- YP- 95 1 80 93 83 94 1 100 2 am am am am pm pm pm pm pm --------------------------------------------------------------------------- highland yard 7:oo canton Mt vernon 7:15 8:00 hollins green spring jct. new freedom 11:00 11:45 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- frederick 1:00 hanover 7:45 10:00 york 7:30 8:45 3:30 1:45 9:00 10:30 8:45 10:45 cola 10:45 11:45 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- cly 8:15 2:45 11:00 enola 9:00 11:45 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- am am am pm pm pm pm pm pm I guess train B-95 and train B-93 were the same train,changing numbers at new freedom. all trains daily except sunday B-95 ran to green spring jct when necessary Eastward and Southward ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- stations YE- YP- B- B- F- F- F- F- PG- 2 1 92 94 81 95 101 82 10 pm am am pm pm pm pm pm am highland yard canton mt.vernon 3:15 4:00 hollins green spring jct new freedom 11:00 11:15 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- frederick 8:00 hanover 1:45 1:30 york 1:30 4:45 9:00 12:45 12:01 12:45 4:45 12:15 cola 3:45 11:45 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ cly 12:45 3:45 11:30 enola 12:01 10:45 am am am am am pm pm pm pm trains B-92 and B-94 must have been the same ,changing numbers at new freedom all these trains(eastward-southward)daily except sunday except trains YP-1 and PG-10...which were daily hope this helps some on the NCR feight trains..... H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 00:28:36 -0500 (EST) From: Jpk815@aol.com Subject: PRR FP-7 Details Content-Length: 904 I'm making a pennsy FP-7 passenger f-unit in N-scale and looking for the following detail parts... anyone have any idea if they are already on the market before i start scratchbuilding (at which I suck)??? and suggustions on where I can find them... I need: passenger pilot mu hoses underframe water tank roof antenna nose lift ring RMC has an excellent article in the august 97 issue on how to do this in HO... I'm trying to translate to N. J.P., Alexandria, VA ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Ultimate diesel list? Date: Thu, 13 Nov 97 07:07:04 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1161 On 11/12/97 4:16 PM, Jeremy C Helms (locoshop@juno.com) wrote: >Has anyone ever done the ultimate diesel list? I am working on this. First, however, I am doing the passenger equipment. As for diesels, I have the class chart already online at "Keystone Crossings" (http://prr.dsop.com/motiveops/index.html). From there WILL be links to individual class rosters. From these will be links to individual unit photos. I already have hundreds of photos for posting. Probably February until you start seeing it. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: How Do I Read A Timetable Date: Thu, 13 Nov 97 07:11:45 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1691 In looking at public timetables, it is easy to find routes and read the times, but one point confuses me. Sometimes at the head of a column there are two train names (e.g. The Red Arrow, The Statesman) and under that are two train numbers. Then there is only one column of station times. What gives? Is it because the trips were so long (e.g. Washington - Chicago) that alternating names were used on alternating days, or did the train change names/numbers at some location (e.g. Pittsburgh) that is not shown on the timetable? Many of these cases are Northern Central trains I am researching. At Harrisburg, part of the consist splits off to head south to Baltimore, while the rest goes to Philadelphia. I thought maybe the split had the new name, but this southerly connecting train often has the same times listed for other east-west trains, but does not share the same "second" train name at the head of its schedule. Therefore, I do not believe the second name to be the name of the connecting train to the south. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: NCR freights Date: Thu, 13 Nov 97 08:12:48 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1609 On 11/13/97 12:39 AM, bubbles@visi.net (bubbles@visi.net) wrote: >frederick 1:00 > hanover 7:45 > 10:00 > york 7:30 8:45 3:30 1:45 9:00 10:30 8:45 10:45 > cola 10:45 11:45 >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > cly 8:15 2:45 11:00 > enola 9:00 11:45 >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Where is "cola"? Is it on the Columbia Branch east of York? Going north from York on the Northern Central is Emigsville, Summit, Mount Wolfe, Wago Junction, York Haven, Cly, Goldsboro, New Cumberland (nee New Market), Lemoyne (nee Bridgeport), Enola. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Call for branch editors Date: Thu, 13 Nov 97 10:26:15 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1357 Every few months I need to reaffirm the need for volunteers to "adopt" branches of the Pennsy to write their histories for posting under the "Hobo's Guide to the Pennsy" on "Keystone Crossings". There have been no additions for many months. If you have the time and resources to write about your favorite branch -- or a branch you are very familiar with -- check the list of branches already online (http://prr.dsop.com/guide/index.html). If the branch of your choice IS NOT listed, please contact me about it becoming your "pet project". These histories may be simple, or extensive, it is up to you. They may include maps, photos, and the like. Look at some of the existing histories for examples. Thanks. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Call for Layout Descriptions Date: Thu, 13 Nov 97 10:28:56 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1294 Another reminder, I like posting descriptions of "PRR-Talk" subscriber's Pennsy-based layouts on "Keystone Crossings" (http://prr.dsop.com/layouts/index.html). If you have such a layout but do not have your own Web site, please contact me about posting your layout's description, perhaps with photos and diagrams, for free on my site. If you have your own Web site and have a layout description online, please send me the URL. Those of you who already have descriptions on my site might want to check to see if updates are needed. I find the work of others to be inspirational for my own efforts. I'm sure others feel the same way. Thanks. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Looking for a Timetable Date: Thu, 13 Nov 97 11:53:23 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 927 Anyone have an East-West Public (passenger) Timetable circa 1947-1952? Also, a North-South (Baltimore -> Williamsport, Erie, Buffalo, etc) from the same era? I'm looking for photocopies of both to research for my modeling efforts on York, Pa. I have TTs from 1941, 1945, and 1954. Thanks. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:57:56 -0500 (EST) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: How Do I Read A Timetable Content-Length: 808 In a message dated 97-11-13 07:29:25 EST, you write: << Sometimes at the head of a column there are two train names (e.g. The Red Arrow, The Statesman) and under that are two train numbers. Then there is only one column of station times. What gives? >> Jerry: When this happens, the two trains were combined into one and run together on the same schedule. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: How Do I Read A Timetable (fwd) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:09:33 EST Content-Length: 760 > Sometimes at the head of a column there are two train names (e.g. The Red > Arrow, The Statesman) and under that are two train numbers. Then there is > only one column of station times. What gives? Jerry, you may be seeing the effect of consolidation of trains as passenger traffic declined. What year are the TTs? -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: NCR freights (fwd) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:11:02 EST Content-Length: 603 > Where is "cola"? > Is it on the Columbia Branch east of York? Jerry, Jerry, tsk, tsk. :-) COLA is COLA tower in Columbia. (That train was on the Port Road.) -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 19:27:29 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Cola Content-Length: 791 Hello all... The best i can fiqure...Cola must have been a tower or operating point. I have a PRR employees time table from the Philly Division..no 3,1957 it list Cola between Cly and Cres(not Cresson) it lists it on the Columbia Branch. Cola might be short for Columbia? don't know. Anyone know? Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: NCR freights (fwd) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 97 09:27:18 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1702 On 11/14/97 9:59 AM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >I'm not sure about that last statement since several branches were located >in that area. COLA tower still stands in Columbia PA, on the Susquehanna >river side of the tracks. It was taken out of service in the 1980s. COLA >governed the interlocking between Shock Mills Bridge, and Safe Harbor (and >maybe beyond - I forget). As such, COLA controlled movements on the >Columbia Branch, the Columbia and Port Deposit (Port Road), the Atglen and >Susquehanna, and the branch to York (This isn't the NC is it?) . No, that's not the NC. However, you have clarrified the freight schedule question. It was a local out of York, travelling east on the Columbia Branch to COLA (Columbia, Pa.) where it interchanged with the Atglen & Susquehanna, Columbia & Port Deposit ("Port Road"), and the "Low Grade" (Lancaster to Middletown; forget actual name). The Columbia Branch bridge over the Susquehanna was removed in the early 1960s. Thanks for the enlightenment! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 07:59:11 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: NCR freights (fwd) Content-Length: 2201 At 1:11 PM -0500 11/13/97, Mark D Bej wrote: >> Where is "cola"? >> Is it on the Columbia Branch east of York? > >Jerry, Jerry, tsk, tsk. :-) > >COLA is COLA tower in Columbia. > >(That train was on the Port Road.) Mark, I'm not sure about that last statement since several branches were located in that area. COLA tower still stands in Columbia PA, on the Susquehanna river side of the tracks. It was taken out of service in the 1980s. COLA governed the interlocking between Shock Mills Bridge, and Safe Harbor (and maybe beyond - I forget). As such, COLA controlled movements on the Columbia Branch, the Columbia and Port Deposit (Port Road), the Atglen and Susquehanna, and the branch to York (This isn't the NC is it?) . COLA replaced an earlier tower which was at the diamonds where the track from York crossed the Port Road which was destroyed by a flood in the 1920s. Look for a map of tracks in Columbia to be digitized and on the WWW soon, as this is the area I model! Happy RAils Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** "Illigitimum non Carbarundum!" _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: NCR freights (fwd) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 9:04:45 EST Content-Length: 3450 > > > Where is "cola"? > > > Is it on the Columbia Branch east of York? > >Jerry, Jerry, tsk, tsk. :-) > >COLA is COLA tower in Columbia. > >(That train was on the Port Road.) > Nih! Alas, I must be spanked! Don't get me started. I _do_ have the _entire_ _Holy Grail_ in electronic form ... > Okay, maybe I shoulda known that one. Being on the west side of the > Susquehanna between Harrisburg and York -- with no bridges in between -- > I don't get to that side of the river often. I don't know the A&S and > Port Road lines...at all! This brings up an interesting point. The ETT says that COLA was on "the Columbia Branch". To interpret this properly, one must know how the PRR named their lines, which usually means, for the PRR, that you also need to know their history. There were several instances where, on the PRR, there appeared to be 2 or 3 or 4 tracks in parallel, but the PRR considered them to be separate operational entities. Jerry, you already know of one of these, viz., from Cly (or York Haven, actually) to STELL, where you had the "Nothern Central Br." or "York Haven Line", and the "A&S Branch". (Yes, they split at LEMO, but only temporarily.) We now tend to call the "Port Road" anything from Enola to Perryville, or alternatively, from Harrisburg to Perryville. But technically, the C&PD branch ran only from PORT interlocking to Perryville. PORT was where the A&S branch cut in as it came west from Parkesburg. So the line along the river at Washington Boro is actually A&S, not "Port Road". Then in Columbia, at COLA, the Columbia Branch cut in. I _believe_, but have to check to be sure, that the A&S and Columbia Br. were considered separate. The original Columbia Br. ran through that little tunnel that is still there, until the tracks were straightened out by use of a fill. At any rate, at SHOCKS, the A&S cuts away, eventually turning west across the bridge, while the Columbia Branch continues along the river (Conrail now calls it the Royalton Branch) to ROY interlocking and the passenger main. In southeastern Ohio, along the Ohio River, near or at ROCKVILLE tower (have to check - and yes, there were _2_ ROCKVILLEs), there were "2" lines according to PRR thinking, the Panhandle mainline, and the River Branch. They crossed at diamonds, with _no_ decent connection between the 2, there! Yet another is from ROCHESTER (Pa.) west, where the "4 track main" is, tsk tsk, not a 4 track main, but the 2-inner-tracks Youngstown Branch and 2-outer-tracks Fort Wayne mainline. And yet another was on the south/west bank of the Monongahela/Ohio in Pittsburgh, where the Panhandle main and Mon Line [former Mon. Div. mainline] ran side-by-side, an apparent "4 track main" that was not considered so, operationally. The Pennsy was (IMHO) a bit strange in keeping such a degree of operational separation. I'm not sure what it gained them. I'm not sure what engendered it apart from managerial inertia. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:39:11 -0500 (EST) From: CENTGA@aol.com Subject: Madison Ind. Content-Length: 566 I'm looking for some information about the PRR at Madison. Operations, history, etc, anyone know where a good source is? Thanks Todd Horton ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: COLA tower Date: Fri, 14 Nov 97 11:37:11 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1397 On 11/14/97 11:58 AM, Mark D Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote: >As I recall it was a Baltimore train that Jerry or someone was asking about. >Thus it would have run via the Port Road if it ran past COLA. But see >also my last post about how the PRR named its branches. PRR ETTs may have >said "COLA locates on the Columbia Branch, MP ", but one had to >know precisely where the various branches were considered to begin/end. >So my use of "Port Road" in my initial statement is a bit loose when speaking >of COLA _specifically_. COLA was referenced in the 1947 freight schedule for York, Pa., provided by Hank Mummert. It listed locals from York to COLA and back, so it would have been on the York - Columbia branch, not the A&S or the Port Road. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: COLA tower Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:58:18 EST Content-Length: 2573 > >COLA is COLA tower in Columbia. > >(That train was on the Port Road.) > Mark, > I'm not sure about that last statement since several branches were located > in that area. As I recall it was a Baltimore train that Jerry or someone was asking about. Thus it would have run via the Port Road if it ran past COLA. But see also my last post about how the PRR named its branches. PRR ETTs may have said "COLA locates on the Columbia Branch, MP ", but one had to know precisely where the various branches were considered to begin/end. So my use of "Port Road" in my initial statement is a bit loose when speaking of COLA _specifically_. > COLA tower still stands in Columbia PA, on the Susquehanna > river side of the tracks. It was taken out of service in the 1980s. Yes. It now houses relays, etc. > COLA governed the interlocking between Shock Mills Bridge, and Safe Harbor > (and maybe beyond - I forget). COLA tower handled not only its local interlocking, but LAKE siding and a couple of interlockings nearby, the western end of the A&S branch (the part along the river), plus the entire Port Road proper, via a CTC panel. Next towers "east" were: PERRYVILLE (Perryville, Md.) on the C&PD branch, PARK (Parkesburg, Pa.) on the A&S branch, CORK (Lancaster, Pa.) on the Columbia Branch. Next towers "west" were (continuing in 'counterclockwise' order) ROY [while it stood] (Royalton, Pa.) on the Columbia Branch and CLY (Cly/Goldsboro, Pa.) on the A&S. > As such, COLA controlled movements on the > Columbia Branch, the Columbia and Port Deposit (Port Road), the Atglen and > Susquehanna, and the branch to York No, not the last of these -- unless you mean the branch to York that _used to cross the river_ at Columbia... > (This isn't the NC is it?) . COLA > replaced an earlier tower which was at the diamonds where the track from > York crossed the Port Road which was destroyed by a flood in the 1920s. > Look for a map of tracks in Columbia to be digitized and on the WWW soon, > as this is the area I model! One map is already on the web on my site as well. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Cola.. Date: Fri, 14 Nov 97 15:28:58 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1648 On 11/14/97 3:57 PM, bubbles@visi.net (bubbles@visi.net) wrote: > Hmmm maybe this train that ran to Cola was going from York to Cola on the > Wrightsville branch....I saw where you all made mention of the old bridge > that was taken out at the beginning of the sixties... > was'nt that the NC's connection to Columbia and also across the river > until the Marysville bridge was built? > if so then would'nt that be the Wrightsville branch if that is the case? Obsolutely correct! I pulled the "Columbia Branch" out of memory and was wrong. It was the "Wrightsville Branch" I was referring to. I also realized another error last night when I described the Baltimore & Susquehanna RR's efforts to build north out of York. I incorrectly stated that this was done under the charter of the "Susquehanna RR". That was wrong. The "Susquehanna RR" was the Northern Central RoW from Lemoyne northward towards Williamsport. The stretch from York to Lemoyne was the "Cumberland & York RR". --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:57:59 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Cola.. Content-Length: 900 Hi you all... Hmmm maybe this train that ran to Cola was going from York to Cola on the Wrightsville branch....I saw where you all made mention of the old bridge that was taken out at the beginning of the sixties... was'nt that the NC's connection to Columbia and also across the river until the Marysville bridge was built? if so then would'nt that be the Wrightsville branch if that is the case? H Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 97 15:52:18 CST Subject: Mt. Union; Chicago SPFers Content-Length: 1057 Hi, everyone, First question: while the East Broad Top was still in operation, what sort of freight train service did the PRR provide at Mt. Union? If a local freight, from where? Lewistown or somewhere else? what kind of engines were common? H9s's? how about diesels? Second: I'm an HO Pennsy modeler in the south suburbs of Chicago but I haven't met too many other SPFers. If you're interested in getting together or know someone that is out here, let me know. Thanks! PRR forever! George Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: PRR Passenger Article, 1967 Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:32:53 -0500 Content-Length: 596 Just an FYI on an article found at this URL http://www.rrhistorical-2.com/cwrr/Parlor/broadwy/broadway.html Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:53:30 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: Madison Ind. Content-Length: 2135 CENTGA@aol.com wrote: > > I'm looking for some information about the PRR at Madison. > Operations, > history, etc, anyone know where a good source is? Thanks Todd > Horton > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Todd! I just spent some time at Madison. I plan to go again in earlt December. The old railroad station is now a railroad centered museum. They had a lot of books about the Madison and Indiana railroad (later a part of the PRR). You should be able to get the number from the Madison Chamber of Commerce. I am sure they will mail books to you. I recently purchased "Railroads of Indiana" by Richard Simmons and Frances Parker. It is an excellent book with a lot of Pennsy and Pennsy predecessor information. It is published by Indiana University Press. The Madison and Indianapolis was the main pioneer railroad in Indiana and is well documented. It was acquired by the PRR. The climb from Madison out of the Ohio River valley was the steepest grade in the whole Pennsy system, and this was the first real railroad in the state. The "Madison Cut" was quite an accomplishment. Horseshoe Curve is one of the few things I have ever visited that was more impressive. The hardcover book is 320 8.5 x 11 pages with 91 B&W photos, 28 maps, and 10 figures. The book appears VERY WELL WRITTEN and VERY WELL RESEARCHED, in contrast to some others I have seen. The book retails for $49.95, but probably can be had for the $39.95 "special promotional" price. S&H is $4.50. Call 1-800-554-7463 or write RR VENTURES PO Box 4 Bloomington IN 47402 -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: PRR Passenger Article, 1967 Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:13:28 -0500 Content-Length: 2146 Dear H. I have lived in Maryland all my life and I have not found a way that I know of to have boarded trains 28 or 29 from Baltimore. I would have had to take another train to make a connection with the Broadway. This was a thought provoking article and the NH car really makes it stand out as "questionable" even if given no other details from the article. It sounds like this is the only name train that the author could site or remember. List members will no doubt have fun with this. Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ---------- > From: bubbles@visi.net > To: Hfitch > Subject: Re: PRR Passenger Article, 1967 > Date: Friday, November 14, 1997 8:53 PM > > At 08:32 PM 11/14/97 -0500, you wrote: > >Just an FYI on an article found at this URL > > > > > >http://www.rrhistorical-2.com/cwrr/Parlor/broadwy/broadway.html > > > > > >Harry W. Fitch > >hfitch@maranatha.net > > Acts 4:12 > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- > >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > >------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > >What section of the Broadway was that supposed to be...I thought it went > to north Philly and then on to Harrisburg and west. > > sounds like it was a congressional or senator...espcially from the consist > description... > > H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don R. Millbranth" Subject: Re: PRR Passenger Article, 1967 Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:35:54 -0600 Content-Length: 661 Wasn't the Broadway a direct route from NY to CHI and the Capital a direct route from DC to CHI? They arrived in CHI about 15 minutes a part in the a.m.. Departure from CHI east was about 20-30 minutes apart...in the p.m. don ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR Passenger Article, 1967 Date: Sat, 15 Nov 97 07:55:09 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1366 On 11/14/97 10:13 PM, Harry W. Fitch IV (hfitch@maranatha.net) wrote: >I have lived in Maryland all my life and I have not found a >way that I know of to have boarded trains 28 or 29 >from Baltimore. I would have had to take another train >to make a connection with the Broadway. I didn't read the online article, but it sounds like it speaks of the B'way out of Baltimore. In fact, in the early days, there was a section of the B'way out of Washington/Baltimore. It ran up the NCR to Harrisburg, where it was added to the B'way from NY/Philly. Business on this train got so good, that it was given its own identity and it ran the entire route without joining the B'way at Harrisburg...The Liberty Limited! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: PRR Passenger Article, 1967 Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 08:24:01 -0500 Content-Length: 1414 The "Passenger Article" posted as a URL in a previous E-mail is a point of interest and any or all viewpoints by the author of the aforementioned article are not necessarily espoused by yours truly. As an editorial, I personally have had a hard time getting on board the Broadway Limited. (PRR trains 28 & 29) from Baltimore or Washington D.C. Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ************************************************************************* ---------- > From: Don R. Millbranth > To: Hfitch ; bubbles@visi.net > Cc: PRR-Talk > Subject: Re: PRR Passenger Article, 1967 > Date: Friday, November 14, 1997 9:35 PM > > Wasn't the Broadway a direct route from NY to CHI and the Capital a > direct route from DC to CHI? They arrived in CHI about 15 minutes a part > in the a.m.. Departure from CHI east was about 20-30 minutes apart...in the > p.m. > > don ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dan Cupper" Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 17:50:42 +0000 Subject: Re: PRR Passenger Article, 1967 Content-Length: 1553 Everyone is missing Harry's point. I went to the page and read the article. Despite making references to a New York-Chicago route, it describes riding from NY to Washington aboard stainless-steel cars with a tuscan letterboard, and a single New Haven car attached. The author refers to a coach lunch counter car as being the only food service (even through most of its Amtrak years the Broadway had a diner). Talks about stopping in 30th Street Station (which the PRR, PC and early Amtrak Broadways never used) and helping a hapless passenger to find her way upstairs to the Suburban level to catch a train to Princeton Junction (really?). And repeatedly calls the train the Broadway. Sounds like a trip on the Congressional, maybe, but again, the author continually calls it the Broadway. The photo at the top of the page shows PRR E units departing Chicago. Call this a mulligan stew of warm railroad memories, or a story designed by a committee, but whatever it is, it certainly does NOT describe a trip on any Broadway operated by PRR, PC, or Amtrak. Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Romans 10:9 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 18:42:06 -0500 From: Robert Vogel Subject: Train Routing out of NYP question. Content-Length: 1428 Earlier this week I was traveling in the New York City area. I took NJ transit Dover line into Penn Station (NYP), walked up to Grand Central (GCT) and took Metro North up to Irvington (of Sleepy Hollow fame). Anyway I saw several Amtrak trains on the Hudson division lines and was wondering what the routing is from Penn Station that gets them up there. Heading back south into Manhattan I noticed a branch going straight into the northern tip of Manhattan. (The MTA train to GCT goes through the Bronx and into Manhattan from the East about a mile from the tip.) When I returned home to Nantucket - where the bar at the club car restaurant is the only railroad artifact actually used on the island- I was pleased to find the GHQ L1 N-scale conversion kit for the Kato mikado has arrived. Its quite nice. In particular the plumbing that is cast on the boiler for the sand pipes has enough relief so that I won't be tempted to scrap it off and replace it. -Bob Vogel ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: PRR Passenger Article, 1967 Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 19:12:21 -0500 Content-Length: 2586 Bless you my friend, for thou hath understanding beyond my worth. I just thought folks might want to view the article for themselves. Obviously it was not THE Broadway LTD that the author rode. The description of the trip was interesting for what it contains not it's historical accuracy on the PRR. Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ---------- > From: Dan Cupper > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: PRR Passenger Article, 1967 > Date: Saturday, November 15, 1997 12:50 PM > > Everyone is missing Harry's point. > > I went to the page and read the article. Despite making references > to a New York-Chicago route, it describes riding from NY to > Washington aboard stainless-steel cars with a tuscan letterboard, > and a single New Haven car attached. The author refers to a coach > lunch counter car as being the only food service (even through most > of its Amtrak years the Broadway had a diner). Talks about > stopping in 30th Street Station (which the PRR, PC and early Amtrak > Broadways never used) and helping a hapless passenger to find her way > upstairs to the Suburban level to catch a train to Princeton Junction > (really?). And repeatedly calls the train the Broadway. > > Sounds like a trip on the Congressional, maybe, but again, the author continually > calls it the Broadway. The photo at the top of the page shows PRR E > units departing Chicago. > > Call this a mulligan stew of warm railroad memories, or a story designed > by a committee, but whatever it is, it certainly does NOT describe a > trip on any Broadway operated by PRR, PC, or Amtrak. > > > > > Dan Cupper > cupper@ibm.net > Romans 10:9 > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Don't shoot the feller. Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 19:24:28 -0500 Content-Length: 745 This here is the URL what caused such a ruckus back thar a few e-mails ago in-casin ya'll missed it. Don't shoot the feller, he's jist tryin to tell ya a little story. This be the place- http://www.rrhistorical-2.com/cwrr/Parlor/broadwy/broadway.html Thank Ya'll Kindly, Slim Pickens, Pat Butrum & Gabby Hayes ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 19:42:09 -0500 (EST) From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: re: Form 4 E-W Public pass. T-T Content-Length: 743 Jerry, I've got a Sept. 24, 1950 Form 4, E-W passenger time tables and an Aug. 14, 1952 Form 1, system wide passenger Timetable. I can scan in pages and send them to you either as attached files or through your FTP. What information do you want about York, Pa.?. It's included on about six pages in each. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 19:53:55 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Hmmmm congressionalway limited Content-Length: 714 Good evening all.... well the story may have its faults...but think of it this way... gives you a window into the way the PRR was just before the merger. hmmmm and the way penn central was too.....(but it was worse) Hank(pa kettle)Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: Hmmmm congressionalway limited Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 20:24:14 -0500 Content-Length: 1635 Dear Hank(pa kettle)Mummert, For all your needs, see Billy Reed! Remember to enter that contest from the magazine. You might win a trip on the Broadway LTD ! You could even bring back some postcards for Geoduck and Crowbar from NY City. Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ---------- > From: bubbles@visi.net > To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com > Subject: Hmmmm congressionalway limited > Date: Saturday, November 15, 1997 7:53 PM > > > Good evening all.... > well the story may have its faults...but think of it this way... > gives you a window into the way the PRR was just before the merger. > hmmmm and the way penn central was too.....(but it was worse) > > Hank(pa kettle)Mummert > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:41:55 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Train Routing out of NYP question. Content-Length: 1511 Robert Vogel wrote: > > wondering what the routing is from Penn Station that gets them up > there. Heading back south into Manhattan I noticed a branch going > straight into the northern tip of Manhattan. > That's the old New York Central West Side Line, home to R-2 electrics and some less common motors. The Swing bridge at Spuyten Duyvil crosses the Harlem River where it swings away from the Hudson (North) River. Pentrex has a good videotape "Along The Hudson Division" which gives a good view of the trip from Penn Station up to Albany. It is largely a cab-ride view from an FL-9, with interspersed trackside footage to round out the story. Amtrak rebuilt the West Side line recently, adding a short connection out of Penn Station. Sadly, all of Amtrak's trains now leave from Penn; GCT is now solely commuter. The bridge was originally double track but is presently single track. A bit of Cliffie Claven type trivia: The bridge was originally steam powered, and was converted to Mercedes-Benz diesel-electric in 1965 or 1966. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 08:48:00 -0500 (EST) From: Hal6963@aol.com Subject: Re: NCR freights (fwd) Content-Length: 569 According to the article in the Winter 1994 Edition of the Keystone the Atglen & Susquehanna and the "Low Grade" are one and the same. Harold ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: A few URL's to check out Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 23:36:04 -0500 Content-Length: 690 A few URL's to check out http://www.vicon.net/~bhrs/bfc_h9.jpg http://members.aol.com/belpaire/loco.htm http://members.aol.com/belpaire/progress.htm http://members.aol.com/belpaire/cabre.htm Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 05:27:17 -0500 (EST) From: PRRMAN@aol.com Subject: Re: NCR freights (fwd) Content-Length: 2051 In a message dated 97-11-16 03:15:50 EST, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: >Then in >Columbia, at COLA, the Columbia Branch cut in. I _believe_, but have to >check to be sure, that the A&S and Columbia Br. were considered separate. This discussion motivated me to dig out the 1950 photocopied track charts. At Cola, according to them, the tracks coming from Lancaster were called "Columbia Branch" for the short distance through the interlocking(about 0.6 mile) where there appeared to be 4 main tracks. But from the west end of Cola to Shocks, the charts and employee TT's definitely identify the line as "A&S Branch". At Shocks, the line splitting off towards Royalton is again labelled "Columbia Branch". Now in a 1954 Phila Division ETT, the stations of Cola, Columbia, and Shocks are listed under both the Columbia Branch AND the A&S Branch. Between Columbia and Shocks, "Lake" appears under the A&S, but it's not listed under the Columbia Branch. But under the Columbia Branch reads "The direction from Cork to Cola & Shocks to State is westward", strongly implying that they consider Cola to Shocks to be not part of the Columbia Branch. The thing that I found most interesting was the distances. Under the Columbia Branch, Columbia to Shocks is 7.2 miles, but under the A&S Branch, Columbia to Shocks is 7.0 miles. Could the line through the tunnel Mark mentioned have been in service simultaneously with the line around the tunnel? This would explain the discrepancy in mileage figures, as well as what became two separated sections of the same branch as of 1950. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Broadway was: PRR Pass. article Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 8:45:43 EST Content-Length: 1506 > I have lived in Maryland all my life and I have not found a > way that I know of to have boarded trains 28 or 29 > from Baltimore. I would have had to take another train > to make a connection with the Broadway. > Harry W. Fitch > hfitch@maranatha.net Harry et al., under PRR there was no "Washington section" of the _Broadway_. That was an Amtrak invention, and not a bad one, if you ask me. But as you know, they (Amtrak) now prefers _not_ to combine/split trains. They claim it's the terminal time -- I suspect it's _really_ the terminal labor costs. The Wash. section first split off at Harrisburg and ran down the formerly freight-only Port Road to Baltimore and D.C. Later they decided to run via Philadelphia (adding huge amounts of time, but staying on "home rails"). As anyone with half a brain tied behind their back could predict, they saved money one way (trackage fees) but lost another (little Washington-to- Harrisburg+beyond traffic, since the "Washington section became simply another Corridor train). -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Train Routing out of NYP question. (fwd) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 8:55:20 EST Content-Length: 1291 > That's the old New York Central West Side Line, home to R-2 electrics > and some less common motors. The Swing bridge at Spuyten Duyvil crosses > the Harlem River where it swings away from the Hudson (North) River. > Pentrex has a good videotape "Along The Hudson Division" which gives a > good view of the trip from Penn Station up to Albany. It is largely a > cab-ride view from an FL-9, with interspersed trackside footage to round > out the story. > Amtrak rebuilt the West Side line recently, adding a short > connection out of Penn Station. > > Steve Bartlett Steve, you don't give Amtrak enough credit. Yes, the West Side Line was already there and majorly disused -- but the "short connection" you speak of is a _brand new_ tunnel - not an easy feat, and not cheap, in midtown Manhattan! -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: NCR freights (fwd) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 8:59:08 EST Content-Length: 1207 > According to the article in the Winter 1994 Edition of the Keystone the > Atglen & Susquehanna and the "Low Grade" are one and the same. > > Harold Harold, It All Depends. There's also the "Low Grade" from ..shoot.. Driftwood, I believe, through Du Bois, to the Allegheny River at/near Red Bank, ultimately to Pittsburgh -- the lowest-grade, and quite likely lowest, crossing of the Alleghenies by the PRR. I suspect this is also the lowest-grade crossing of the Alleghenies by any railroad save the NYC/WS, which of course "cross" the Alleghenies by way of the Hudson River. I've also heard the Conemaugh main line referred to as the "Low Grade" - which it is, compared to the original PRR main line via Greensburg etc. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: NCR freights (fwd) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 9:08:29 EST Content-Length: 2632 > Mark, the track diagram in "Panhandle Branch Lines Part II" in the Summer > 1994 Keystone shows that you're stretching reaclity a bit. > The Panhandle main crossed the River Branch on an overpass at the west end of > the Ohio River bridge in Stuebenville before turning south for the 4.5-mile > run to Mingo Jct. where the PCCStL main turrned west at Rockville to head > toward the Gould Tunnel. Yes, my error. It was something else, perhaps the W&LE, that crossed the PRR at ROCKVILLE. > Lying between the Panhandle main and the twin > tracks of the River Branch was the entire Mingo Jct. yard. Not the whole way, though. There were stretches that would have appeared to be a "4-track main". > The two were > connected by a single track at the south end of the Mingo Jct. yard that > apparently hit the Pnahandle Main at Rockville. OK. > With tongue firmly planted in check I've called the Columbus Division a "four > tracked main." The Columbus-Chicago:"freight line" was double tracked its > entire route. The Colubmus-Dayton/Cincinnati "passenger line" was doubled > tracked west to Xenia where single-track mains leading to Cincinnati and > Dayton diverged. Buckeye yard was built between the two lines in Western > FRankliln Co. It's nearly 40 miles between Xenia and Urbana, Ohio. Right. So taken all the way to Chicago via Indianapolis and LOgansport, there was a "3.5-track main" from Pgh. to Chicago ... sort of. > I stand by my statement that the 21-mile four-tracKed Fort Wayne main between > Alliance and Canton in Stark Co., Ohio was the only true four-tracked main > on the Pennsylvania west of Pittsburgh. Tom, by "west of Pittsburgh", do you mean the passenger station? I.e., are you taking the (to me logical) dividing point, where the PFtW&C and PCC&StL split? If so, do you not consider the 4 (and 5?) tracks, from Pgh. Penn Station to Conway to be a "true 4-track main"? What about the 4 tracks from Conway to ROCHESTER tower? And what about the 4 tracks from Englewood east to Colehour yard (or thereabouts; one exception at the E Chicago draw)? We should probably pull out some ETTs ... -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: NCR freights (fwd) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 9:17:55 EST Content-Length: 2532 > >Then in > >Columbia, at COLA, the Columbia Branch cut in. I _believe_, but have to > >check to be sure, that the A&S and Columbia Br. were considered separate. > > This discussion motivated me to dig out the 1950 photocopied track > charts. At Cola, according to them, the tracks coming from Lancaster > were called "Columbia Branch" for the short distance through the > interlocking(about 0.6 mile) where there appeared to be 4 main tracks. > But from the west end of Cola to Shocks, the charts and employee > TT's definitely identify the line as "A&S Branch". At Shocks, the line > splitting off towards Royalton is again labelled "Columbia Branch". OK, interesting. So COLA to SHOCKS is specifically labeled so? That suggests that the PRR considered the new line built on that fill to be A&S. What PRR considered the Columbia Branch in that area was probably abandoned by 1950 (it ran through that little tunnel, now easily walkable) > Now in a 1954 Phila Division ETT, the stations of Cola, Columbia, and > Shocks are listed under both the Columbia Branch AND the A&S Branch. > Between Columbia and Shocks, "Lake" appears under the A&S, but > it's not listed under the Columbia Branch. But under the Columbia > Branch reads "The direction from Cork to Cola & Shocks to State is > westward", strongly implying that they consider Cola to Shocks to be > not part of the Columbia Branch. Strange. Rather schizophrenic, that. > The thing that I found most interesting was the distances. Under the > Columbia Branch, Columbia to Shocks is 7.2 miles, but under the > A&S Branch, Columbia to Shocks is 7.0 miles. Could the line through > the tunnel Mark mentioned have been in service simultaneously with > the line around the tunnel? This would explain the discrepancy in > mileage figures, as well as what became two separated sections of > the same branch as of 1950. The tunnel is not _that_ far off. It did not seem to me to have caused a 0.2 mile discrepancy. But who knows. I'm speaking of _perception_ only. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Finally Found A Use Date: Mon, 17 Nov 97 10:39:57 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1320 Back in 1976, my grandparents gave me a collection of National Geographics, from 1929-1963 inclusive. They also started me with a new subscription as of that date, which I only recently discontinued. In the interim, I also acquired the missing years of 1964-1976. They've always been in boxes, and I've moved them five times over the past 20 years. Now I finally have a use for them... Just recently I discovered (via sales on eBay) that Nat Geo was were all those great railroad ads ran! I went through 1943-1948 last night and must've found over a hundred ads! I'll be selling them on eBay shortly...except for the Pennsy ones. There are some beauties, though! 8-) --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:41:22 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: NCR freights (fwd) Content-Length: 3123 At 5:27 AM -0500 11/17/97, PRRMAN@aol.com wrote: >This discussion motivated me to dig out the 1950 photocopied track >charts. At Cola, according to them, the tracks coming from Lancaster >were called "Columbia Branch" for the short distance through the >interlocking(about 0.6 mile) where there appeared to be 4 main tracks. >But from the west end of Cola to Shocks, the charts and employee >TT's definitely identify the line as "A&S Branch". At Shocks, the line >splitting off towards Royalton is again labelled "Columbia Branch". >The thing that I found most interesting was the distances. Under the >Columbia Branch, Columbia to Shocks is 7.2 miles, but under the >A&S Branch, Columbia to Shocks is 7.0 miles. Could the line through >the tunnel Mark mentioned have been in service simultaneously with >the line around the tunnel? This would explain the discrepancy in >mileage figures, as well as what became two separated sections of >the same branch as of 1950. Up until the 1950's when the stretch of the Columbia branch between Columbia and Shocks was abandoned, the Columbia branch followed the shoreline (and the oldest right of way), while the A&S followed a more straight-line along a fill (thus accounting for the mileage difference). It was the Columbia branch which went through the tunnel at Chickies Rock. Originally, there was an impoundment of water between the two call "Lake ?" (something I can't remember just now). After this let lose and resulted in a flood, washing away the predecessor of COLA tower, it was filled with stone (this project took many years to complete - sometime in the early 40's). After the 1937 electrification of the A&S, the Columbia branch was NOT electrified in this stretch (as best I can tell). I believe that the Columbia branch continued to service Marietta, and in particular the large army depot there (now a scrap metal operation). Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** "Illigitimum non Carbarundum!" _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Columbia Branch et al Date: Mon, 17 Nov 97 11:23:14 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 2561 Good thread on the Columbia Branch, etc. My recollection is this: Original PRR main line from Philly came through Lancaster, Mt. Joy, Elizabethtown, Middletown, to Harrisburg. The Columbia Branch was an early "low-grade" alternative for Philly-Harrisburg freights to bypass the elevations between Lancaster and Middletown. It came off at Lancaster and headed directly west to Columbia, where it turned north and remained along the east shore of the Susquehanna and rejoined the main at Royalton. The Atglen & Susquehanna Branch, built in the early 1900s, was also a "low-grade" alternative accomplishing two goals: First, it provided a new low-grade route for freights from Enola-Philly...eliminating the need for the existing Columbia Branch. The route followed the west shore of the Susquehanna (parallel to the Northern Central as far as Wago Junction) south to Shocks Mill Bridge, where it crossed to the east shore. There it paralleled the Columbia Branch into Columbia. Several miles south of Columbia it veered eastward and inland towards Parkesburg where it rejoined the main southeast of Lancaster. Second, it provided a connection to the Columbia & Port Deposit Branch... The Columbia & Port Deposit Branch ran from Columbia south to Port Deposit along the east shore of the Susquehanna where it met what is now known as the Northeast Corridor. Although a few miles longer than the existing Northern Central route, it was straighter and leveler and spelled the end to heavy freight traffic on the NCR. Passenger traffic continued on the NCR due to all the cities, towns, and villages along the way...until the auto killed off this business. The C&PD line didn't have the population centers and never developed passenger service. The Wrightsville Branch connected Columbia with York to the west. This connection was broken circa 1962 when the bridge was taken out. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Columbia Branch et al (fwd) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:43:48 EST Content-Length: 3258 > Good thread on the Columbia Branch, etc. My recollection is this: > > Original PRR main line from Philly came through Lancaster, Mt. Joy, > Elizabethtown, Middletown, to Harrisburg. Not quite. Original _original_ PRR was Harrisburg to Pittsburgh _only_. Philadelphia to _Columbia_ was already in, part of the Main Line of Public Works. Lancaster to Harrisburg was a later & separate RR, Harrisburg, Portsmouth, Mountjoy [sic] & Lancaster. [Portsmouth = Middletown] > The Columbia Branch was an early "low-grade" alternative for > Philly-Harrisburg freights to bypass the elevations between Lancaster and > Middletown. Not really. Columbia Br. has its own grade at Mountville. Back when signalled, the signals had "G" plates on them. Though I suspect, but without track diagrams cannot prove, that current main line (HPMtJ&L) grade at E-town was greater. (Used to be tunnel on latter line, later daylighted.) > It came off at Lancaster and headed directly west to > Columbia, where it turned north and remained along the east shore of the > Susquehanna and rejoined the main at Royalton. It _was_ the only thing going for a while, and HPMtJ&L "came off" the Main Line, so to speak, if they even connected. At any rate, very quickly PRR obtained both and Lancaster--Columbia section was quickly on its way to downgrading, as it did not offer a through route. Not sure when Columbia--Royalton section was built. > The Atglen & Susquehanna Branch, built in the early 1900s, was also a > "low-grade" alternative accomplishing two goals: First, it provided a new > low-grade route for freights from Enola-Philly...eliminating the need for > the existing Columbia Branch. The route followed the west shore of the > Susquehanna (parallel to the Northern Central as far as Wago Junction) > south to Shocks Mill Bridge, where it crossed to the east shore. There it > paralleled the Columbia Branch into Columbia. Several miles south of > Columbia it veered eastward and inland towards Parkesburg where it > rejoined the main southeast of Lancaster. Second, it provided a > connection to the Columbia & Port Deposit Branch... > The Columbia & Port Deposit Branch ran from Columbia south to Port > Deposit along the east shore of the Susquehanna where it met what is now > known as the Northeast Corridor. Although a few miles longer than the > existing Northern Central route, it was straighter and leveler and > spelled the end to heavy freight traffic on the NCR. Passenger traffic > continued on the NCR due to all the cities, towns, and villages along the > way...until the auto killed off this business. The C&PD line didn't have > the population centers and never developed passenger service. Suspect that C&PD was built before A&S... -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:26:06 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Train Routing out of NYP question. (fwd) Content-Length: 1286 Steve Bartlett wrote: > .....Amtrak rebuilt the West Side line recently, adding a short > connection out of Penn Station. > Mark D Bej wrote: > Steve, > you don't give Amtrak enough credit. Yes, the West Side Line was already > there and majorly disused -- but the "short connection" you speak of is > a _brand new_ tunnel - not an easy feat, and not cheap, in midtown Manhattan! Mark and all: Sorry, I did not mean to minimize AMTRAK's efforts. I knew there was a new tunnel to get out of Penn Station on to the West Side Line, just neglected to mention it. BTW, and I know this is not about PRR, "Trains" Magazine of March, 1947, had an excellent article with photos and a track diagram, describing the night activities at Spike, written by one of the tower operators. Steve Bartlett Former NYC Electrical Engineer ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:55:21 -0900 From: Kevin & Maureen Subject: PRR Pool Power Content-Length: 701 Does anyone know if the PRR had a pool power program for trains running over LV or Reading rails? Or did they just exchange crews with LV and Reading for trains running into Bethlehem? Kevin Tully C.E.O. FOXBURG, MT. JEWETT & CORYDON RAILROAD Co. "The Allegheny Route" ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:39:17 -0900 From: Kevin & Maureen Subject: PRR Traffic to/from Bethlehem Steel Content-Length: 687 Does anyone have information (re: time table info) on trains bound for and departing from Bethlehem Steel in Bethlehem PA? I'm looking for type of trains, normally assigned motive power, train symbols, times, number of trains a day, week, month, et. Kevin ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bill.laird@coastalcorp.com Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:35:11 -0600 Subject: NovaTec FM Erie Built shells arrive (8 months late) Content-Length: 2793 I have previously posted on this list my difficulties with NovaTec Plastics and trying to get delivery of a prepaid order. The resin shells finally arrived today, eight months after being ordered (and paid for). To sumarize: 1. A set of A-B-A FM Erie Built HO scale resin shells was ordered from NovaTec Plastics on March 20, 1997 and prepaid with a personal check. NovaTec promptly cashed the check. NovaTec had advertised the shells as in stock, ready to ship, satisfaction guaranteed or your money cheerfully refunded. 2. After about 45 days I began calling NovaTec regarding the order. Over the next six months I repeatedly phoned them and was told each time that the order would be shipped in the next few days. 3. I sent numerous e-mails requiring about the status of the order. Although I received an automated receipt showing sucessful delivery of each e-mail, I never received a response to my inquiries. 4. In September I wrote the president of NovaTec trying to get a resolution. Although the letter was received (I have the return receipt showing delivery), I never received a reply. 5. The first of November I wrote Kalmbach Publishing Co. and explained the difficulties I was having with NovaTec and suggested that they might not want to accept any more advertising from a company with such bad business practices. I received a copy of a letter from Kalmbach to NovaTec, dated November 12, suggesting that NovaTec should take care of this problem. 6. On November 14th I received a telephone call from NovaTec saying that my order had been shipped and as stated above it was received today (the 17th). As to the quality of the shells, I would say they are average for resin shells, no great distortion, no visible pinholes, detail acceptable but not up to the level of plastic injection molding. So, Kalmbach has some clout with their advertisers. After eight months of trying to deal with NovaTec without success, a word from Kalmbach and the order was shipped the next day. Keep this in mind if you have any problems with anyone who advertises in Kalmbach publications. To conclude: Am I happy to get my order at long last? YES. Will I write Kalmbach thanking them for their persuasive message? YES. Will I ever do business again with NovaTec? NO. Bill Laird Houston, Texas ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 20:34:04 -0500 From: Robert Vogel Subject: Re: Train Routing out of NYP question. (fwd) Content-Length: 1395 Speaking of expensive Manhatten real estate, why has the open cut behind the post office never been built over? I can't imagine that they lift wrecks out by crane or need more ventilation than shafts and fans can provide. Mark D Bej wrote: > Steve, > you don't give Amtrak enough credit. Yes, the West Side Line was already > there and majorly disused -- but the "short connection" you speak of is > a _brand new_ tunnel - not an easy feat, and not cheap, in midtown Manhattan! > > -- > Mark D. Bej > bejm@eeg.ccf.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 05:54:17 -0500 (EST) From: Hal6963@aol.com Subject: PRR Madison & Indianapolis Branch Content-Length: 1160 For those interested there is a Masters Thesis on this Branch Line available from the Butler University Library in Indianapolis. The Author is Freda L. Bridenstine and is dated 1931. The document is 80 pages and covers the time perid 1829 until 1890. The only mention of the PRR is on the closing pages of the document and addresses the leaseing of the M&I to the Pennsy. The thesis talks about the locomotive "Reuben Wells" a camelback used on the grade at madison which is now in the Childrens Museum in Indianapolis. The document is available from the Butler University Library in Indianapolis. As I recall I paid $7.50 plus postage. I don't have their telephone number but you can get it from information. Harold ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Train Routing out of NYP question. (fwd) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 7:40:24 EST Content-Length: 843 > Speaking of expensive Manhatten real estate, why has the open cut behind > the post office never been built over? I can't imagine that they lift > wrecks out by crane or need more ventilation than shafts and fans can > provide. To allow guys with special privileges, like Don Ball, access to get pictures of GG1s, but to vex "ordinary" railfans like us permanently. :-) -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: NCR freights (fwd) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 7:43:41 EST Content-Length: 1549 > << Tom, by "west of Pittsburgh", do you mean the passenger station? I.e., > are you > ta >> > "West of Pittsburgh," ala "West of the Alleghenies, Mississippi, The Brazos, > etc" Since all PRR traffic funneled through the valleys of the Iron City, > two or three tracks would not be enough to handle the load. I guess it would > be more proper to say "the Fort Wayne mainline in eastern Stark Co., Ohio, > was the only true four-tracked main west of metroploitan Pittsburgh." OK. Given that, you've ignored :-) my previous question about why you are not considering the sections from Pgh. to Conway, or eastern Chicago and environs, 4 tracks. > The River Branch track diagram in the Summer 1994 Keystone shows only PRR > lines. The W&LE would be a good guess since from Mingo Jct. west to > Ulrchville was joint PRR/W&LLE trackage. I believe this line is now part of > NS. Was NS, is (the new) W&LE again. > >.We should probably pull out some ETTs .<< > Amen. I'll be going to a railroadana show in Columbus Dec. 13 on my first > foray for Pennsy paper. Hmm.. Sounds promising ... -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Advertising Observations Date: Tue, 18 Nov 97 09:27:48 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1339 I haven't finished going through all those National Geographics yet...did a batch from 1943-1948 and from 1958-1963. I did, however, make these observations: 1) Pennsy advertising came to an abrubt halt shortly after the war. 2) NYC advertising slowed...about an ad every third issue...after the war. 3) Ads for western and Canadian railroads increased...probably because people now had time and money to travel...and went west, not east. Of course new in the picture was competition from buses (Greyhound and Trailways) and the airlines. BTW: Was the PRR's involvement with the "Pennsylvania Greyhound Lines" a precurser to the regular "Greyhound" lines? Or was it a different entity? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: NovaTec FM Erie Built shells arrive (8 months late) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:35:35 -0500 Content-Length: 1929 Bill, you may have wound up ahead of the game after all. I have heard from others, so this is pure hear-say, but much of the production shells were so bad that many modelers returned them or threw them away. What you wound up with might, repeat, might, be some specialy selected product. That you find them acceptable leads me to believe this is the case. I hope you enjoy them. I kitbashed my own from AHM/IHC FM C-Liner shells, but that was long before Nova Tech announced their shells, or I'd have gone through what you did. In fact, I e-mailed them several times before I ordered, asking only if their shells were in stock and ready to ship. When I didn't get any e-mail response, my BS antenna kicked in and I did not send them any money. I hope Nava Tech gets it together and prospers. Later, Andrew Harmantas, waiting to see the trains at C&O Milepost FM Zero. Nothing moving here today. Probably a maintenance window, or something... > ---------- > I have previously posted on this list my difficulties with NovaTec > Plastics > and trying to get delivery of a prepaid order. (snip-snip) > . On November 14th I received a telephone call from NovaTec saying > that my order had been shipped and as stated above it was received > today (the 17th). As to the quality of the shells, I would say they > are > average for resin shells, no great distortion, no visible pinholes, > detail > acceptable but not up to the level of plastic injection molding. > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 97 08:30:10 CST Subject: Non-PRR cars on Pennsy passenger trains Content-Length: 1136 Hi, everyone, Here's one for those of you who know PRR passenger consists. In a number of color videos of the PRR after WWII, there are various non-PRR cars in passenger trains. In particular, I seem to see Missouri Pacific baggage or express cars on what I take to be the "St. Louisian" (it's running in daylight on the Middle Div.). At least the car looks like it has wide white and blue bands. Some of the film quality is poor enough that I can't be sure. Any thoughts on what off-road equipment might have shown up on Middle Div. daylight passenger trains? PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:14:46 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: R-60 or BM-60? Content-Length: 1926 Hi All, As you may remember, I asked a question about a recent HO scale brass car purchase, which was sold in a Custom NJ Brass box marked "PRR BM-60". Many thanks to H. Mummert, who photocopied the appropriate pages from PRR Passenger & Freight Car Diagrams and sent them to me! I can confirm you suspicions that it is in fact an R-60 express reefer. This car was apparently equipped with brine tanks, a central access area, and two cold storage areas. Now I have just a two more questions. 1) What was the typical service assignment of the R-60? Milk? 2) Any idea when they were built? Also included in the diagrams was the BM-60. This looks like it could be a fun kitbash of the Eastern Car Works B-60! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** "Illegitimi non Carborundum!" _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:29:58 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: NovaTec FM Erie Built shells arrive (8 months late) Content-Length: 1106 On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Harmantas, Andrew G. wrote: > Bill, you may have wound up ahead of the game after all. I have heard > from others, so this is pure hear-say, but much of the production shells > were so bad that many modelers returned them or threw them away. What > you wound up with might, repeat, might, be some specialy selected > product. That you find them acceptable leads me to believe this is the > case. I hope you enjoy them. Novatech claims they redid the molds after the first run, and that the second run is "much better". I'll tell you if I ever get mine. -D (Sending the second piece of email from his T1, and still waiting on the other T1) ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: R-60 or BM-60? Date: Tue, 18 Nov 97 12:14:42 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 973 On 11/18/97 11:14 AM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >Also included in the diagrams was the BM-60. This looks like it could be a >fun kitbash of the Eastern Car Works B-60! Don't forget that, with diagrams, the Desktop Solutions / Union Station Products partnership can make any passenger car sides!!! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Advertising Observations (fwd) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:15:06 EST Content-Length: 1042 > Of course new in the picture was competition from buses (Greyhound and > Trailways) and the airlines. > BTW: Was the PRR's involvement with the "Pennsylvania Greyhound Lines" a > precurser to the regular "Greyhound" lines? Or was it a different entity? My recollection is that PRR had direct (business) connections with Greyhound (or ownership?) but was then told to get out of the business by the ICC. I guess it was OK for Big Auto, Big Rubber, and Big Steel to conspire and buy up L.A.'s trolleys, but not for Big Rail and Big Busing to join forces ... Mean Railroad! Bad, Bad Railroad! -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Advertising Observations (fwd) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 97 12:26:20 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1625 On 11/18/97 12:15 PM, Mark D Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote: >My recollection is that PRR had direct (business) connections with Greyhound >(or ownership?) but was then told to get out of the business by the ICC. > >I guess it was OK for Big Auto, Big Rubber, and Big Steel to conspire and >buy up L.A.'s trolleys, but not for Big Rail and Big Busing to join forces >... Another case of our government trying to eliminate efficiency! In the early 1900s, the government killed the Northern Central Railway by forcing it to divest itself of its coal field holdings...claiming it was an unfair advantage to "produce" the raw material AND be its shipper. Coal on the NCR provided a huge amount of traffic...and profit. Once divested, the coal owners could continue to ship east - then north to Sodus Point via the NCR; southeast via the Reading; or northeast via ??? (I forget who). Anyway, the competition removed that nice bit of profit the NCR had enjoyed for many years. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: 1967 Broadway article Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:39:27 -0600 Content-Length: 1136 Rather than beat this guy to death, it should be a reminder to us that just because it is in print doesn't mean that it is correct. For example, I may find myself referring to a 1947 railroad magazine article on a subject as if is gospel. In reality it may be an unintentional fiction. Another example: at the WISE division train show at Milwaukee, a retired Pennsy worker from Columbus, Ohio, criticized my M1 model for having the wrong tender. Said they only had the short tenders. Someone from Columbus may enlighten me if the long distance tenders never made it there behind an M1, but unless that is true, it shows we should even be skeptical of those "who were there". Bob Zoeller Fox Point, WI ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:18:41 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: Advertising Observations Content-Length: 1162 Hi Jerry and All, In addition to advertising in NatGeo, Pennsy and others also advertised in SatEvePost, Fortune and, I believe Life and Look magazines. The ads in these are, of course, much larger than the ads in NatGeo. Fortune did a series of Feature articles on the Pennsy in 1938 that I have just acquired the first installment of. Will be reviewing the article for the group shortly. I have my bookfinder checking his stock for the sequels. I have several hundreds of ads, including Pennsy, that include many doubles and triples. I will offer them to PRR-Talk members first when I get them sorted. Jerry, look beyond the ads. NatGeo also ran feature articles on industries, including railroads, in that era. Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:03:40 -0900 From: Kevin & Maureen Subject: FM&C RAILHEAD Nov. 18, 1972 Vol. 1 Issue 2 Content-Length: 6152 FM&C RAILHEAD Nov. 18, 1972 Vol. 1 Issue 2 On the Move!!!! Well, it’s that time again. The company is pulling up roots and moving. We’ll be going to Florida until May of ‘98, and then it’s on to Ft. Meade, MD. I have established Internet e-mail accounts for the FM&C, myself, and our family. They are as follows: FM&C (allegheny_route@hotmail.com), myself (t1duplex@hotmail.com),yes, that’s a one after the “t”, and our family (mknjtully@hotmail.com). We should have a mailing address soon, but for now, anyone that wants to send anything via USPS, send it to:Tully C/o Donna Kapper, Pine Ridge Estates, 601-7 Pine Rd., Mt. Holly Springs, PA 17065-1117. Motive Power This portion of the Railhead will be devoted to updating the public on motive power acquisitions and progress on FM&C motive power each month. FM&C Class EF36, SD45-2 # 4531 has been completed and is ready for revenue service. This is the first locomotive to receive the Operation Lifesaver paint scheme. Look for it on the nose of most Hotshot and Unit trains it’s assigned to. FM&C Class EF36, SD45-2 #4532 is completed. This unit also wears the Operation Lifesaver paint and logo. FM&C Class EF20 #1626 is now completed and is ready for mainline service. FM#C Class AF25, C425 #2425 is completed and is now ready for mainline service. FM&C Class ES12, SW7 #703 completion has been delayed due to the movement of the main shops and offices. Completion should be accomplished in January or February of 1998. FM&C Class EF30, SD40-2 #4420 has had it’s new 81” nose installed and is now awaiting installation of it’s cooling and dynamic brake fans. FM&C Class EF30, SD40-2 #4422 has been painted, and lettered. It now awaits hand railings, lighting, and windows/windshield wipers. This locomotive is the first of two fitted (by EMD) with the “Safety Cab”. #4422 along with #4423 were the result of an overage on an order placed by Canadian National. The order went over by two locomotives, and were offered by EMD to the FM&C at a slightly reduced cost. This also facilitated with the earlier delivery of the Roads first order of the new SD40-2 series locomotive. Company C.E.O. Kevin Tully was duly impressed with the cabs and commented that perhaps the Company would specify on the next order for SD40-2’s to be built with the Safety Cab. FM&C Class EF36, F45 #4504 is awaiting it’s winterization hatch and will then be sent to the paint shops. Completion of this unit is scheduled for February of 1998. FM&C Class FFH24m H24-66 #1252 is nearing completion. The locomotive is being repowered with a GM prime mover to aid in the companies streamlining of maintenance. The locomotive will be assigned to Helper Service and stationed in Sunbury, PA. Rolling Stock Update The order of Greenville 100t 15 panel hopper has started rolling in with the first shipment of 15 cars being delivered on 14 Nov. FM&C Rotary Plow #W85 ‘s rebuilding has been held up due to a part being unavailable from the manufacturer. The rebuild is expected to not be completed until next summer. FM&C Superintendent of Right of Way’s Gary Kratts was not pleased with this due to the amount of snow predicted for Mt. Jewett and the surrounding area this winter. The unit is being modified to electricity. After removal of the boiler the carbody has been shortened almost fifteen feet. An EMD F3 ( a High Liner Kit on an Athearn F7 frame with A-Line power) )will provide the power necessary to run the four traction motors that will now power the plow. FM&C 250 ton crane #W2501 has been delayed. The crane should be in the paint shops by 22nd of November. Along with FM&C Crane Service Gondola #W143, these units should be available for loan to the LI&N to aid in the construction of that roads newest span bridge in Rensselear, IN. Business Negotiations continue for the interchange of traffic with the Alaska Santa Fe Railway. Finished structural steel would be shipped west from the Lackawanna and Bethlehem mills and once it reached Seattle would be loaded onto car barges for delivery via AKSF rails. Projects FM&C construction crews finished the three spurs at the new Rensselear Coke Works in Indiana last week. Work on the ovens and reclamator are coming along. The completion date has been moved back to 30 November and the completion of the piping and landscaping will most likely be turned over to the AKSF. The inbound coal spur and outbound empties spur will hold ten 46’ hoppers. History Within the next month it is hoped that a definitive history of the FM&C will be in the works. For those interested in obtaining a copy of this work, please respond to the current company e-mail address:allegheny_route@hotmail.com FM&C on the Web The companies web site mysteriously vanished a few weeks ago. Constant attempts at contacting the site master have failed, and with no further reports, the company is concerned about the possible abduction of Wales (the web sites physical address) by aliens. The company should have a new web site by February or March of 1998. Letters to the Editor Letters to the editor may be sent via e-mail (for now). All letters are subject to editing for length of content. Send letters to “Letter to the editor” at: allegheny_route@hotmail.com. FM&C Information Anyone wishing copies of FM&C rosters, classification code explanation, or other information can write to the companies e-mail address or temporary physical address, listed below: allegheny_route@hotmail.com or Tully C/o Donna Kapper, Pine Ridge Estates, 601-7 Pine Rd., Mt. Holly Springs, PA 17065-1117. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:44:52 -0500 (EST) From: VVA249@aol.com Subject: CONRAIL Content-Length: 628 Spotted wesbound @ Cleveland, Ohio - 1:30 p.m. 11/18: Conrail "Heavyweight" passenger cars 21 22 & 24 "Track Geometry" train - Cars had dark green sides slate grey roofs and yellow lettering Dick Ross ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Train Routing out of NYP question. (fwd) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:19:08 EST Content-Length: 855 > of Washington Union Station. I assume the open area above the western = > terminal throat would then be covered with a new structure to access the = > platforms, as the Post Office building is really over the beginning of the = > North River tunnel. This latter statement is not correct. From east to west, we have: 1) Penn Station / MSG; 2) Post Office; 3) empty block; 4) tunnels. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:27:04 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Advertising Observations Content-Length: 974 Jerry Britton wrote: > > BTW: Was the PRR's involvement with the "Pennsylvania Greyhound Lines" > a precurser to the regular "Greyhound" lines? Or was it a different > entity? > Greyhound may have been somehow divided into subsidiaries like the railroads. I rode Greyhound a lot from Houston to Beaumont, Texas, in the mid 1950's and remember buses stenciled to show ownership (or operating co.) as "Teche Greyhound Lines., Inc," which would have been a Louisiana reference. Might the PRR may have been a local operator? Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 14:17:52 -0900 From: Kevin & Maureen Subject: PRR F3's? PA1 and PB1 Classed as AFP20 Content-Length: 639 Does anyone know if the PRR had F3's? A and B? Also, what about the ALCo PA1 and PB1's that were reclassed as AFP20. Where were these used and does anyone have photo's of these units pulling freight? Kevin ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 05:55:54 +0000 Subject: Re: PRR F3's? PA1 and PB1 Classed as AFP20 From: locoshop@juno.com (Jeremy C Helms) Content-Length: 1552 < Subject: Re: PRR F3's? PA1 and PB1 Classed as AFP20 Content-Length: 1030 At 02:17 PM 11/18/97 -0900, you wrote: >Does anyone know if the PRR had F3's? A and B? Greetings, Yes, they were numbered in the 9500 class originally. > >Also, what about the ALCo PA1 and PB1's that were reclassed as AFP20. >Where were these used and does anyone have photo's of these units >pulling freight? > Look in Yannosey's book "Pennsy Diesel Years" Vol 1 pg 29 and pg 89. Pg. 29 Pa 5757 in BG single stripe. Pg 89 can't read numbers but there is an A-B-B unit with a GP7 helper on the point. The PA's are still in BG five stripe. Sincerely, S.A. McCALL hosam ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 07:59:02 -0500 From: mxb13@psu.edu (Michael Bezilla) Subject: Re: PRR F3's? PA1 and PB1 Classed as AFP20 Content-Length: 756 >>Also, what about the ALCo PA1 and PB1's that were reclassed as AFP20. >>Where were these used and does anyone have photo's of these units >>pulling freight? The PRR kept at least one PA unit at HUNT on the Middle Division as a passenger protect engine. Not sure if this continued after the reclass but it seems likely. -m ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR F3's? PA1 and PB1 Classed as AFP20 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 97 09:14:23 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 966 On 11/19/97 8:59 AM, Michael Bezilla (mxb13@psu.edu) wrote: >The PRR kept at least one PA unit at HUNT on the Middle Division as a >passenger protect engine. Not sure if this continued after the reclass but >it seems likely. -m What is a "passenger protect engine"...my guess would be standby in case a unit went dead en route? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:56:29 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: PRR/Greyhound Relationship was Re: Advertising Observations Content-Length: 1025 Greetings to Jerry and the group, _Pennsy Power III_ explains the PRR/Greyhound relationship in addition to PRR's over the road truck operations. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 09:27 AM 11/18/97 -0400, Jerry Britton wrote: > >BTW: Was the PRR's involvement with the "Pennsylvania Greyhound Lines" a >precurser to the regular "Greyhound" lines? Or was it a different entity? > >--------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator >Progressive Information Technologies >britton@pit-magnus.com >http://www.pit-magnus.com >1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Alco PA's -- dynamic brakes? Date: Wed, 19 Nov 97 10:16:56 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 991 Hi all, Did any of the PRR's Alco PA's have dynamic brakes. The roster info I've seen implies that they didn't but I haven't found any good roof shots to verify this. Have to figure out which style of undec Proto 2000 PA's to get... Also, is correct to assume that only the flat numberboards are correct for PRR as the PRR's 45 degree numberboards are retrofits and don't match the factory applied style... Thanks, Rob --------------------------------------------------- Robert Schoenberg robs@internexus.net http://www.internexus.net/~robs/PRR ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 08:40:05 -0700 From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 11/19/97 Content-Length: 3007 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Non-PRR cars on Pennsy passenger trains > From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) > Date: Tue, 18 Nov 97 08:30:10 CST > > Hi, everyone, > > Here's one for those of you who know PRR passenger consists. In a > number > of color videos of the PRR after WWII, there are various non-PRR cars > in > passenger trains. In particular, I seem to see Missouri Pacific > baggage or > express cars on what I take to be the "St. Louisian" (it's running in > daylight on the Middle Div.). At least the car looks like it has wide > > white and blue bands. Some of the film quality is poor enough that I > can't > be sure. Any thoughts on what off-road equipment might have shown up > on > Middle Div. daylight passenger trains? > George, Run through cars (usually sleepers) were common in the postwar era. I remember riding the City of San Francisco back in 1966 and there were a couple of Pennsy sleepers on the end. In fact, some of the "off-line" cars you saw in the video may of actually been Pennsy cars...some years ago TRAINS magazine did an article on passenger cars belonging to the Pennsy that were painted in other roads' livery. I think that there were some MoPac cars illustrated, so the cars you say may actually have been Pennsy cars. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: 1967 Broadway article > From: "Bob Zoeller" > Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:39:27 -0600 > > > Another example: at the WISE division train show at Milwaukee, a = > retired Pennsy worker from Columbus, Ohio, criticized my M1 model for > = > having the wrong tender. Said they only had the short tenders. > Someone = > from Columbus may enlighten me if the long distance tenders never made > = > it there behind an M1, but unless that is true, it shows we should > even = > be skeptical of those "who were there". Bob, The M1's were built with short tenders and most of them ran that way until the 40's. Later on they were equipped with any one of several classes of longer tenders...but a couple of them kept their short tenders. Most of the short tenders replaced older tenders on earlier K4s class locomotives. You might want to check out Bert Pennypacker's book on the M1 class that NJ International did some years ago...I don't know if it is still available, but if you can get a hold of a copy, it is an excellent source Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: FW: Non-PRR cars on Pennsy passenger trains Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:26:43 -0600 Content-Length: 1355 George Pierson wrote " In a number of color videos of the PRR after WWII, there are various non-PRR cars in passenger trains. In particular, I seem to see Missouri Pacific baggage or express cars on what I take to be the "St. Louisian" (it's running in daylight on the Middle Div.). At least the car looks like it has wide white and blue bands. Some of the film quality is poor enough that I can't be sure. Any thoughts on what off-road equipment might have shown up on Middle Div. daylight passenger trains?" I believe I commented on this before but our server hiccups and I am not sure if it made it to the list. The cars I have seen in videos were actually Texas and Pacific cars in MoPac colors. Videos I have seem to indicate they are in the Duquesne, probably forwarded from a St. Louis train at Pittsburgh, but I wouldn't swear to the accuracy of that reference. Bob Zoeller Fox Point, WI ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR PA1 & PB1 AFP20 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 97 13:59:04 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1372 On 11/19/97 2:25 PM, Kevin & Maureen (kkratts@Alaska.NET) wrote: >OK gentlemen, here's the second question, what modifications were made >to these units to get them the coveted "F" in the reclassification. >I've just been the successfull bidder in an ebay auction for two PA1's >and a PB1, and plan on modeling the PRR AFP20's. The "A" in the class is obviously Alco. The appearance of both "F" and "P" usually indicates dual service. While I cannot comment on overall Pennsy use of this unit, I believe Bill Coloroso's book on the Elmira Branch has a photo(s) of these units in freight service. Modiciations are normally denoted by a lowercase suffix after the major classification. For instance, "ES12m" or "AS16ms". --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Also PA1&PB1 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 97 14:02:25 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 996 On 11/19/97 2:30 PM, Kevin & Maureen (kkratts@Alaska.NET) wrote: >If they were used in mineral service, would it have been possible to see >them in/around Shamokin, Steelton, etc.? As noted in my previous post, I believe they are shown in Bill Coloroso's book on the Elmira Branch. That would indicate coal, between Williamsport, Pa., and Sodus Point, NY. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:25:42 -0900 From: Kevin & Maureen Subject: PRR PA1 & PB1 AFP20 Content-Length: 697 OK gentlemen, here's the second question, what modifications were made to these units to get them the coveted "F" in the reclassification. I've just been the successfull bidder in an ebay auction for two PA1's and a PB1, and plan on modeling the PRR AFP20's. Kevin ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:30:32 -0900 From: Kevin & Maureen Subject: Also PA1&PB1 Content-Length: 896 Also, according to my roster of PRR, the following PA & PB's were reclassed in 1952&3: 5750, 5750B, 5751, 5752, 5752B, 5753, 5754, 5754B, 5755, 5756, 5756B, 5757, 5758, 5758B, 5759. Which ones were DGLE (and how many stripe) and which were left Tuscan (and how many stripe)? Were there any A&B units coupled by means of a draw bar? If they were used in mineral service, would it have been possible to see them in/around Shamokin, Steelton, etc.? Kevin ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:48:02 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Re: Alco PA's -- dynamic brakes? Content-Length: 1404 At 10:16 AM 11/19/97 -0500, you wrote: >Hi all, > >Did any of the PRR's Alco PA's have dynamic brakes. The roster info I've seen implies that they >didn't but I haven't found any good roof shots to verify this. Have to figure out which style of >undec Proto 2000 PA's to get... Also, is correct to assume that only the flat numberboards are >correct for PRR as the PRR's 45 degree numberboards are retrofits and don't match the factory >applied style... Greetings, Evidently the Pa's were equipped with dynamic brakes, but had no interconnecting wiring to enable their use. Quoting from Yannoseys' book "Pennsy Diesel Years" Vol 1 pg 89. "In less than one year the AP20's would become AFP20's when the units were modified for freight service by having a trainline for dynamic braking added during their shopping" Don't know for sure about the numberboards, all the pics I can find are the slanted type...... Sincerely, S.A. McCALL hosam ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: PRR photos on the web... Date: Wed, 19 Nov 97 15:34:36 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 601 If you haven't checked out George Elwood's site lately, it's worth a look... He now has 100+ PRR photos (mostly loco's) http://www.dnaco.net/~gelwood/other/prr.html - Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:58:43 -0500 (EST) From: VVA249@aol.com Subject: PENNSYLVANIA GREYHOUND Content-Length: 1314 Pennsylvania Greyhound was owned by PRR - See Pennsy Power 3 (back of book) for details One of the more interesting "Paint Schemes" is availible die cast in "0" scale (1:50) by Corgi on a "Yellow Model 743" OFFICIALLY called the "Battle of Britain" the paint job featured a Greyhound with an RAF "Roundel" - which was, of couse called the "Dog and Target" I know most of this list is in HO - but look at it at your hobby shop - Retail $39.95 PRR Greyhound Buses used at the 1939 Worlds Fair - to transport passengers to Grand Central - featured an NYC oval on the rear - actually a DIG at the competition as PRR offered direct rail service - via Long Island - to the Fair . Fair goers using PRR walked past the buses with the NYC logo to board their trains - probably smirking at those who had to take a bus to get to their trains ! Dick ross Cleveland ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:52:38 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Re: Alco PA's -- dynamic brakes? Content-Length: 1127 At 10:16 AM 11/19/97 -0900, you wrote: >> Quoting from Yannoseys' book "Pennsy Diesel Years" Vol 1 pg 89. >> "In less than one year the AP20's would become AFP20's when the units were >> modified for freight service by having a trainline for dynamic braking >> added during their shopping" > >I'll assume the "trainline" was a hose next to the coupler for an air connection. Or >was it an electrical connection? > >Kevin > Greetings, I really don't know, I was hoping someone else would fill in the details. I would think it was an electrical connection as dynamic brake control is normally done by electrical relays and not by air controls....... Sincerely, S.A. McCALL hosam ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 18:40:52 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: zephyrs a recap Content-Length: 2118 Greetings, Below is a recap of the information I have collected concerning the "Zephyrs" Please excuse the caps as my spreadsheet is in all caps. Easier for me to read.. MODEL QTY FIRST OWNER YEAR ENG SPEC PIONEER ZEPHYR 1 CB&Q 9900 1934 8 CYL 600 HP FLYING YANKEE 1 BM 6000 1935 8 CYL 600 HP SAM HOUSTON ZEPHYR 1 CB&Q 9901 1935 8 CYL 600 HP SILVER STREAK ZEPHYR 1 CB&Q 9902 1935 8 CYL 600 HP MARK TWAIN ZEPHYR 1 CB&Q 9903 1935 8 CYL 600 HP PEGASUS ZEPHYR 1 CB&Q 9904 1936 8 CYL 900 HP ZEPHYRUS 1 CB&Q 9905 1936 8 CYL 900 HP SILVER KING/SILVER QUEEN 1 CB&Q 9906A/B 1936 8 CYL 600 HP SILVER KNIGHT/SILVERPRINCESS 1 CB&Q 9907A/B 1936 8 CYL 600 HP SILVER CHARGER 1 CB&Q 9908 1939 12 CYL 1000 HP #9900 WAS BUILT AS A 3 CAR TRAIN, A DINETTE WAS ADDED IN 1938. #6000 WAS BUILT AS A 3 CAR TRAIN. #9901 WAS BUILT AS A 3 CAR TRAIN. #9902 WAS BUILT AS A 3 CAR TRAIN. #9903 WAS BUILT AS A 4 CAR TRAIN. 4TH CAR WAS A BAGGAGE CAR. #9904 WAS BUILT AS A 5 CAR TRAIN. #9905 WAS BUILT AS A 5 CAR TRAIN. ALL THE ABOVE WERE ARTICULATED TYPE TRAINS, SHARING A COMMON TRUCK BETWEEN UNITS. #9906A/B WAS BUILT AS AN ENGINE ONLY. #9907A/B WAS BUILT AS AN ENGINE ONLY. #9908 WAS BUILT AS AN ENGINE TO POWER THE GEN. PERSHING ZEPHYRS. Anyone wishing to add to or update, do so please............ #9900 WAS DONATED TO CHICAGO MUSEUM OF SCIENCE & INDUSTRY. #9901 & 9902 WERE SCRAPPED. #9903 WAS SENT TO MIDWEST OLD SETTLERS & THRESHERS ASSOCIATION IN MT. PLESANT IOWA. #9904, 9905,9906,9907 & 9908 WERE SCRAPPED #6000 WAS SENT TO EDAVILLE, MASS. Sincerely, S.A. McCALL hosam ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Penn Station Photos Date: Wed, 19 Nov 97 20:20:08 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 816 I have posted an extensive selection of photos of Penn Station, Baltimore, at "KC" in the Photo section. Also, check out the "PRR-Talk" page...I found a "theme" graphic! 8-) ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Wrong Island Railroad Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:36:14 -0500 Content-Length: 607 If you don't want to see an upside down, Pennsy keystone, then don't go to this site. http://www.li-web.com/wir/index.htm Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:14:02 -0500 (EST) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 11/19/97 Content-Length: 1338 In a message dated 97-11-19 11:01:43 EST, bdaniels@rtd.com writes: << Run through cars (usually sleepers) were common in the postwar era. I remember riding the City of San Francisco back in 1966 and there were a couple of Pennsy sleepers on the end. In fact, some of the "off-line" cars you saw in the video may of actually been Pennsy cars...some years ago TRAINS magazine did an article on passenger cars belonging to the Pennsy that were painted in other roads' livery. I think that there were some MoPac cars illustrated, so the cars you say may actually have been Pennsy cars. >> PRR Passenger cars were painted for ACL, ATSF, CB&Q/D&RGW/WP (Zephyr), CRI&P/SP (Golden State), MKT/FRISCO (Texas Special), MP, NYNH&H/B&M/MC (East Wind), SAL, SR, UP/C&NW/SP (Overland Route), UP. All the cars were sleepers built by Pullman and ACF. The cars were used for run through service. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:20:31 -0900 From: Kevin & Maureen Subject: Re: PRR PA1 & PB1 AFP20 Content-Length: 1819 Jerry Britton wrote: > > On 11/19/97 2:25 PM, Kevin & Maureen (kkratts@Alaska.NET) wrote: > > >OK gentlemen, here's the second question, what modifications were made > >to these units to get them the coveted "F" in the reclassification. > >I've just been the successfull bidder in an ebay auction for two PA1's > >and a PB1, and plan on modeling the PRR AFP20's. > > The "A" in the class is obviously Alco. The appearance of both "F" and > "P" usually indicates dual service. While I cannot comment on overall > Pennsy use of this unit, I believe Bill Coloroso's book on the Elmira > Branch has a photo(s) of these units in freight service. > > Modiciations are normally denoted by a lowercase suffix after the major > classification. For instance, "ES12m" or "AS16ms". Actually, "m" would stand for a repowering, and "ms" would mean the units had been not only repowered, but also equipped with a steam generator. Other than paint, I believe, so far, that these units had no real modifications done, except for the addition of the trainline for dynamic brake control. The lack of the "z" suffix (z= converted from passenger to freight service (ie: removal of all passenger related equipment)) would make me think that the units were simply reclassed and put into service, passenger equipment and all. Kevin J. Tully Pennsylvania Railroad Into The Future ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 21:44:16 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: you don't want to go there. Content-Length: 1119 >If you don't want to see an upside down, >Pennsy keystone, then don't go to this site. > >http://www.li-web.com/wir/index.htm > >Harry W. Fitch >hfitch@maranatha.net > Acts 4:12 ======= I don't see what the problem is, Harry: this is obviously a "basestone" such as were widely used around the country for footings on water towers, overhead walkways, etc. It is a little known fact that the Pennsy liberated the design and inverted it (to get around the copyright) thus the origins of the alleged "Keystone". Other than that, I am feeling much better now. Regards, Bob Boyd Those Classic Trains "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:57:19 +0000 Subject: Re: Breakups and mergers From: locoshop@juno.com (Jeremy C Helms) Content-Length: 719 Hello all, I do not know what this sounds like to anyone else, but I feel there is a large breakdown in these railroads that could very well spell the end to the Conrail breakup. Any great philosophical thoughts out there in the crowd? Jeremy Helms Pennsylvania Railroad into the Future ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:37:52 -0500 From: tmahon@cfnh.com (Tom Mahon) Subject: Re: zephyrs a recap Content-Length: 2762 s.a. mccall wrote: > > Greetings, > > Below is a recap of the information I have collected concerning the > "Zephyrs" > > Please excuse the caps as my spreadsheet is in all caps. Easier for me to > read.. > > MODEL QTY FIRST OWNER YEAR ENG SPEC > PIONEER ZEPHYR 1 CB&Q 9900 1934 8 CYL 600 HP > FLYING YANKEE 1 BM 6000 1935 8 CYL 600 HP > SAM HOUSTON ZEPHYR 1 CB&Q 9901 1935 8 CYL 600 HP > SILVER STREAK ZEPHYR 1 CB&Q 9902 1935 8 CYL 600 HP > MARK TWAIN ZEPHYR 1 CB&Q 9903 1935 8 CYL 600 HP > PEGASUS ZEPHYR 1 CB&Q 9904 1936 8 CYL 900 HP > ZEPHYRUS 1 CB&Q 9905 1936 8 CYL 900 HP > SILVER KING/SILVER QUEEN 1 CB&Q 9906A/B 1936 8 CYL 600 HP > SILVER KNIGHT/SILVERPRINCESS 1 CB&Q 9907A/B 1936 8 CYL 600 HP > SILVER CHARGER 1 CB&Q 9908 1939 12 CYL 1000 HP > > #9900 WAS BUILT AS A 3 CAR TRAIN, A DINETTE WAS ADDED IN 1938. > #6000 WAS BUILT AS A 3 CAR TRAIN. > #9901 WAS BUILT AS A 3 CAR TRAIN. > #9902 WAS BUILT AS A 3 CAR TRAIN. > #9903 WAS BUILT AS A 4 CAR TRAIN. 4TH CAR WAS A BAGGAGE CAR. > #9904 WAS BUILT AS A 5 CAR TRAIN. > #9905 WAS BUILT AS A 5 CAR TRAIN. > ALL THE ABOVE WERE ARTICULATED TYPE TRAINS, SHARING A COMMON > TRUCK BETWEEN UNITS. > > #9906A/B WAS BUILT AS AN ENGINE ONLY. > #9907A/B WAS BUILT AS AN ENGINE ONLY. > #9908 WAS BUILT AS AN ENGINE TO POWER THE GEN. PERSHING ZEPHYRS. > > Anyone wishing to add to or update, do so please............ > > #9900 WAS DONATED TO CHICAGO MUSEUM OF SCIENCE & INDUSTRY. > #9901 & 9902 WERE SCRAPPED. > #9903 WAS SENT TO MIDWEST OLD SETTLERS & THRESHERS ASSOCIATION > IN MT. PLESANT IOWA. > #9904, 9905,9906,9907 & 9908 WERE SCRAPPED > #6000 WAS SENT TO EDAVILLE, MASS. > > Sincerely, > > S.A. McCALL hosam Greetings from snowy New Hampshire, #6000 is currently stored on the property of a contractor on Rte 302 in Bartlett/Glen, New Hampshire. It was moved from Edaville in 1993. There is a Flying Yankee Restoration Group with an e-mail address of fygroup@ncia.net and an extensive web page at www.ncia.net/fygroup/. Regards, Tom Mahon ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:24:29 -0600 (CST) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: Breakups and mergers Content-Length: 6848 The came in over the local listserver yesterday morning. The Conrail breakup is mentioned in pgf. 18. The following bites have been taken from this week's Traffic World cover story. ========= Farm Crisis At congressional hearing, shippers predict worse situation than '95 car shortage; railroads say delays will continue BY DAVID BARNES In Ovid, Colo., the Kelly Bean Co. ordered a hopper car to transport soybeans on Aug. 27. The car arrived Oct. 7. A carload of rice owned by the Denver-based Trinidad Benham Co. departed Lake Charles, La., Sept. 12 for the 400-mile journey to Mineola, Texas. It arrived Oct. 30. It is the fall of discontent among agricultural shippers in America's heartland. While agricultural shippers are used to backlogs during peak harvest season, the heartburn is worse than ever before and relief is nowhere in sight. Since September, BNSF, UP and Kansas City Southern have averaged just over 16,273 grain carloadings a week, 21 percent lower than the level achieved during the severe 1995 grain car shortage, Assistant Agriculture Secretary Michael Dunn told a congressional subcommittee at a Nov. 6 hearing. "This is the most serious crisis facing our nation's railway system since passage of the Staggers Act of 1980," Dunn said. "We have a train wreck in this country," added Rep. Bill Barrett, R-Neb., chairman of the House Agriculture Committee's subcommittee on general farm commodities. "We have been unable to meet our contracts with buyers, and we continue to accumulate expenses with having corn on the ground, double drying expenses, double elevating expenses, paying farmers for grain that we aren't getting paid for, paying farmers to store grain that should have been shipped, and trucking it to the ground, augering it and paying to have it picked back up and transferred back to the elevators," groused John Graff, general manager of La Salle Farmers Grain Cooperative, La Salle, Minn. While elevator operators are being paid as much as $300 per car a day by railroads for not moving their cars, the payments pale in comparison to the loss of revenue, Randall said. Randall's local elevator has 200,000 bushels of beans awaiting shipment. The beans are worth $1.2 million a trainload, while BNSF has been paying $16,250 a day for the train sitting at the elevator's siding awaiting a locomotive. Barrett predicted the problem may only get worse as the Southwest cotton harvest season begins. According to Dunn, more than 25 percent of the corn and sorghum crops in the western Corn Belt and southern Plains region remains to be harvested. Officials of Burlington Northern Santa Fe and Union Pacific acknowledged that delays will continue until the end of the year. BNSF blamed its two-to-three-week backlog on a booming economy. "We came into this season with no excess capacity," said BNSF Vice President Philip Weaver. "We are turning away customers because of the economy." BNSF was caught off-guard by the recovery of the red winter wheat crop following an April freeze. When the soybean harvest started coming in, service started to decline. To reduce the backlog, BNSF has temporarily embargoed Texas Gulf elevators and Mexican gateways and will only allow shipments as the queues decline, Weaver said. This year's grain harvest is only three percent larger than last year's, which both railroads handled without significant delays, according to shippers. UP Vice President Drew Collier blamed his railroad's 30-day backlog in car delivery on the well-documented congestion problems his company has faced since summer. UP's 33,000 hopper cars normally turn 1.4 times a month, but are currently turning only once a month, resulting in a 40 percent reduction in car availability. The railroad has increased the number of locomotives in grain service by nearly 60 percent in recent weeks and hopes to eliminate the backlog by year's end, Collier said. Collier and Weaver also took heat about other shipper complaints. Minge also passed on complaints about trains stopping within sight of elevators because their crews had exceeded federal hours-of-service limits. "I can't understand how you got into this situation. I've never heard of a plane setting down because of this situation," he said. "The answer is better planning on our part," Weaver said. Minge said he planned to meet with unions and railroads to discuss ways to improve crew schedules to avoid delays caused by hours-of-service issues. The Eastern lawmakers who dominate the House Transportation Committee will look to the problems faced by the newly merged Union Pacific and Southern Pacific Railroads and the almost-as-new Burlington Northern Santa Fe for guidance on whether to support the proposed breakup of Conrail. A key member of the Western-dominated Senate Commerce Committee, Surface Transportation Subcommittee Chairwoman Kay Bailey Hutchison, R-Texas, is deeply interested in STB reauthorization. Texas is facing the worst of UP's service problems, putting Hutchison in the difficult position of balancing shipping interests against those of UP and BNSF, which are both based in her state. As a sign of the significance of the hearing, STB Chairman Linda J. Morgan not only testified, but stayed through the whole hearing. Subcommittee members peppered her with questions about the board's ability to respond to the shortage. Morgan said the board has the statutory authority to step in if warranted, but dodged the question of whether the STB has sufficient resources to do its job. "We haven't felt that staff levels have been a topic for discussion," she said. "Congress set funding levels for STB in our authorization bill." While House Railroad Subcommittee staff predicted at a Traffic World conference on rail mergers last month that major changes in the STB's authority are unlikely, agricultural interests will point to this year's service problems as proof of the need for increased government regulation of railroads. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:00:04 -0500 (EST) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: 4 track main Content-Length: 1454 In a message dated 97-11-19 22:35:46 EST, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: << OK. Given that, you've ignored :-) my previous question about why you are not considering the sections from Pgh. to Conway, or eastern Chicago and environs, 4 tracks. >> Mark: The Pittsbugh to Conway track can be very confusing. In the simplest terms this all was four track mainline. However, operationally it was not. The PFtW&C had three eastern Division posts in Pittsburgh. US Tower (west of Union Station), Duquesne Freight House, and the Produce Yards. The Fort Wayne Bridge is double decked. The upper deck carried the 2 mainline tracks from US to FEDERAL while the lower deck carried the freight only tracks to Duquesne freight house and the Produce Yards (these were not mainline tracks). At FEDERAL the Connemaugh Division 2 track mainiline joined the PFtW&C to form the 4 track main west of FEDERAL. From FEDERAL to EAST CONWAY the main was definitely a four tracks and in some places a five track main. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:18:55 -0500 From: bobsin@nac.net Subject: Re: 4 track main Content-Length: 648 While discussing multitrack mains, not to forget that New Jersey is privileged to host SIX tracks ELMORA (South Elizabeth) to UNION (Rahway), 5.0 miles, and still desperately needs them in the rush hour. John Bobsin ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:28:50 -0500 From: bobsin@nac.net Subject: Re: Train Routing out of NYP Content-Length: 1549 Note that the ("Empire") connection to the ex-NYC West Side begins on the south side of the yard west of the station platforms, that is south of the North River Tunnel tracks; the tunnel then goes in a curve to the NW OVER the North River Tunnel tubes (PRR mainline), then UNDER the new Long Island Rail Road yard (which is in the open and should probably be appended to the MSG/Penn Sta - Post Office - Open - Tunnels sequence) and then on to connect with ex-NYC trackage. I believe that the Empire Connection was built at the same time as the new LIRR yard and would have been difficult or impossible to add afterwards. Also, I have heard (confirmation?) that the tunnel has both DC and AC electrification, just like the North River tubes; of course, in the North River all scheduled service uses AC motors or MUs and in the Empire Connection all service is with dual-mode diesel/DC locomotives. I also believe I have heard of plans to use the air rights over the trackage W of the Post Office. So get those photos now! There are supposed to be vantage points from a publicly-accessible parking lot. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: 4 track main (fwd) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:46:59 EST Content-Length: 1437 > The Pittsbugh to Conway track can be very confusing. In the simplest terms > this all was four track mainline. However, operationally it was not. The > PFtW&C had three eastern Division posts in Pittsburgh. US Tower (west of > Union Station), Duquesne Freight House, and the Produce Yards. The Fort > Wayne Bridge is double decked. The upper deck carried the 2 mainline tracks > from US to FEDERAL while the lower deck carried the freight only tracks to > Duquesne freight house and the Produce Yards (these were not mainline > tracks). At FEDERAL the Connemaugh Division 2 track mainiline joined the > PFtW&C to form the 4 track main west of FEDERAL. From FEDERAL to EAST > CONWAY the main was definitely a four tracks and in some places a five track > main. Agree with all. ANd my point exactly. The PRR to my knowledge never considered the Conemaugh Division to extend to Conway. Thus, from FEDERAL to EAST CONWAY was a 4-track main, and it's clearly west of Pittsburgh. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: FW: PRR F3's? PA1 and PB1 Classed as AFP20 Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:47:36 -0600 Content-Length: 988 Jeremy Helms wrote: ---------- "In answer to Kevin's questions I have to say the PRR did own F3s of an early type (phase 1) with chicken wire grills and high fans. " Just so we don't confuse Kevin, the Pennsy's so-called phase I F3s did have the chicken wire grilles and high fans, but only 2 portholes on the A-units (Does this make them a Phase 1-1/2?). Stewart made a beautiful model of this version. Re the AFP20, Pennsy Power II has a photo of one smoking its way on its last days on a freight transfer run at Frankford Jct. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: 4 track main (fwd) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:48:42 EST Content-Length: 855 > John Bobsin > While discussing multitrack mains, not to forget that New Jersey > is privileged to host SIX tracks ELMORA (South Elizabeth) to UNION > (Rahway), 5.0 miles, and still desperately needs them in the > rush hour. John, the discussion started about 4-track mains out west, and the latest debate is over Tom Vondruska's assertion that the only 4-track main west of Pittsburgh was Alliance to Canton. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:57:09 -0500 From: bobsin@nac.net Subject: Re: Broadway routing Content-Length: 838 Forgive me if someone else mentioned this, but by the pre-Amtrak Penn Central era they were advertising a CONNECTION from Baltimore to Harrisburg for the Broadway (via York, presumably), with a further connection Wash-Balto. (See for example PC East/West (Form 1), March 3, 1971.) A hog can get there without changing, but you'll have to change twice, unless of course you defect to the B&O. John Bobsin ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:05:53 -0500 (EST) From: VVA249@aol.com Subject: Re: Advertising Observations Content-Length: 640 The most interesting part of PRR "Wartime" advertising was in the lower right hand corner - the number of Employees in the military - and the number who had died in service - both numbers were quite large Dick Ross ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:20:33 -0500 (EST) From: VVA249@aol.com Subject: McKinley and the PRR Content-Length: 948 If you or members of your family are interested in the NFL Pro Football Hall of Fame also make a note that the nearby President Wm McKinley Monument and Museum has a collection of HO Model trains and an operating HO scale layout based on the Steam Era PRR in the Canton - Alliance Ohio area. Not worth the trip by itself but if you're in the area - the McKinley Monument/Mauseleum is Visible from I-77 and is within blocks of the Football Hall of Fame - visit via internet at: www.mckinleymuseum.org Dick Ross ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bill.laird@coastalcorp.com Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:33:57 -0600 Subject: Fairmont Speeders Content-Length: 1101 Did the PRR use Fairmont Speeders or Motorcars? I believe they did (but am not sure) and I am looking for pictures of how they were painted and marked by the PRR. I have seen a couple of not too close pictures of what appeared to be Fairmont Motorcars in the PRR equipment color guides. The reason for my interest is that I am building a 1 1/2" scale, gasoline engine powered, Fairmont Section Car from a construction article in the August 1984 issue of Modeltec magazine. I intend to run it on local live steamers club 7 1/2" guage trackage. I would like to paint and mark it as if it were in PRR service. Thanks for any info. Bill Laird Houston, Texas ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: PRR-Talk Photo Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:41:48 -0500 Content-Length: 723 Jerry, That's a great way to use that image of the engineman using trainphone while holding down the right seatbox! Do you think we should mount trainphone antenna on our computers for a more realistic "feel" when we use the list? Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: Advertising Observations Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:37:51 -0500 Content-Length: 908 Your observation is right on Dick, It's a very sobering reminder that everyday people had to go to war to ensure our freedom from such tyrannical maniacs as that of the Axis powers. Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 > The most interesting part of PRR "Wartime" advertising was in the lower right > hand corner - the number of Employees in the military - and the number who > had died in service - both numbers were quite large > Dick Ross > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 20:25:55 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Subject: Re: Breakups and mergers Content-Length: 1416 At 10:57 AM 11/20/97 +0000, Jeremy C Helms wrote: >I do not know what this sounds like to anyone else, but I feel there is a >large breakdown in these railroads that could very well spell the end to >the Conrail breakup. Any great philosophical thoughts out there in the >crowd? If you read the press releases that NS and CSX are putting out, it's very clear that they've already thought of that, and are saying so quite plainly. "Go slow", "measured approach", "careful planning", "safer roads", and other such phrases abound. They are very carefully lining up support from the states, mostly by promising track upgrades (payroll dollars, tax roll dollars) and higher traffic levels (fewer trucks on roads => more highway dollars, fewer civilian deaths). It's rather interesting to watch... Both roads post their releases on the web (www.nscorp.com, www.csx.com) and have email lists for them (nsinfo, CSX Express) that you can sign up for on their pages. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 21:09:21 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Train Routing out of NYP Content-Length: 1064 bobsin@nac.net wrote: > > Note that the ("Empire") connection to the ex-NYC West Side begins on > the south side of the yard west of the station platforms, ..... and > then on to connect with ex-NYC trackage. ....... > Also, I have heard (confirmation?) that the tunnel has both > DC and AC electrification, just like the North River tubes; > I would guess the Empire Connection tunnel, like the river tunnels, has third rail for wire train power. The overhead A. C. catenary extends into daylight; the Pentrex videotape "Along the Hudson Division" shows the end of wire shortly after leaving the tunnel. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 21:25:09 -0500 (EST) From: PRRMAN@aol.com Subject: Re: Advertising Observations (fwd) Content-Length: 762 In 30th Street Station's earlier days, it was Philadelphia's bus station. Greyhound used the ground level, north end of the building. The area, which has been vacant for many years, is still known as "the bus station" to employees. I believe this also applied at Newark, and I'm sure at other stations as well. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 21:39:43 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Alco PA's -- dynamic brakes? Content-Length: 1568 Kevin Tully wrote: > >I'll assume the "trainline" was a hose next to the coupler for an air > connection. Or > >was it an electrical connection? > > s.a. mccall wrote: > I really don't know, I was hoping someone else would fill in the details. > I would think it was an electrical connection as dynamic brake control is* > normally done by electrical relays and not by air controls....... > Multiple-unit dynamic braking on at least some designs requires, in addition to the 27 wire control jumper cable, a DC field loop circuit which is supplied through a separate, heavier connection. The term "train line" has been used loosely for different meanings over the years, including DC battery jumnpers between adjacent Pullman cars (the connections were inside the diaphragms at the top of the passage between cars), and for the steam line, as well as other functions. The main air brake line is generally referred to as just the "brake pipe." Regarding the modification of a passenger unit for freight service, this often includes regearing for lower speeds and higher tractive effort. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Joe Gotaskie" Subject: Re: Fairmont Speeders Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 01:57:23 -0500 Content-Length: 2004 The PRR Color Guide Vol 2 has a picture of what I think is a Fairmont (it's square in shape). However it's all yellow with what appears to be 2 black stripes (approx 6 to 8 inches wide) that extend from each bottom corner and meet just below the center of the windshield forming an upside down V. Hope this helps, Joe ---------- From: bill.laird@coastalcorp.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Fairmont Speeders Date: Thursday, November 20, 1997 5:33 PM Did the PRR use Fairmont Speeders or Motorcars? I believe they did (but am not sure) and I am looking for pictures of how they were painted and marked by the PRR. I have seen a couple of not too close pictures of what appeared to be Fairmont Motorcars in the PRR equipment color guides. The reason for my interest is that I am building a 1 1/2" scale, gasoline engine powered, Fairmont Section Car from a construction article in the August 1984 issue of Modeltec magazine. I intend to run it on local live steamers club 7 1/2" guage trackage. I would like to paint and mark it as if it were in PRR service. Thanks for any info. Bill Laird Houston, Texas ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ---------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Photo Date: Fri, 21 Nov 97 06:58:01 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1019 On 11/20/97 6:41 PM, Harry W. Fitch IV (hfitch@maranatha.net) wrote: >That's a great way to use that image of the >engineman using trainphone while holding >down the right seatbox! > >Do you think we should mount trainphone antenna on our computers >for a more realistic "feel" when we use the list? Cool, hadn't thought of that...a user for all those excess coathangers! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:24:58 -0500 (EST) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: PRR PA1 & PB1 AFP20 Content-Length: 1218 In a message dated 97-11-21 03:30:35 EST, kkratts@Alaska.NET writes: << Actually, "m" would stand for a repowering, and "ms" would mean the units had been not only repowered, but also equipped with a steam generator. >> Sorry, gentlemen. The "m" means the unit had M.U. capability. Any significant change in internal or external configuration was indicated by "a", "b" etc. Yes, the "s" does indicate steam generator equipped. The AP20 A units were regeared not repowered in 1954 for dual service and reclassed AFP20. The gear ratio was changed from 60:23 to 64:19 reducing the maximum speed from 100 mph to 80.5 mph and increasing the continious tractive effort from 27,000 to 35,000. The B units were nor so treated and remained AP20 until retired in 1962 Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 07:46:30 -0900 From: Kevin & Maureen Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Photo Content-Length: 976 Jerry wrote: > > On 11/20/97 6:41 PM, Harry W. Fitch IV (hfitch@maranatha.net) wrote: > > >That's a great way to use that image of the > >engineman using trainphone while holding > >down the right seatbox! > > > >Do you think we should mount trainphone antenna on our computers > >for a more realistic "feel" when we use the list? > > Cool, hadn't thought of that...a user for all those excess coathangers! Hmmmmm, I wonder if there's a market for this. After all, the "trekies" have had a market for those screen frames.............. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 97 12:07:59 CST Subject: Middle Div Local service Content-Length: 1244 Hi, everyone, Here's a follow-up question to one I ran earlier RE PRR service in Mt. Union. Does anyone know if the service was offered by some sort of local freight or was a through freight designated to switch? I know that at Denholm, between Lewistown and Mifflin, the service was provided by a local out of the Lewistown yard, designated M18 and M19 - don't know how far east they worked. Could Mt. Union have gotten local service out of Lewistown? Were there any other local yards with engines stationed there closer to Mt. Union than Lewistown? In fact, where else on the Middle Div. were there yards with engines stationed there? Let me know what you think. PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:57:46 -0500 (EST) From: CENTGA@aol.com Subject: LL P2K GP-9's Special road number Content-Length: 507 I have some LL P2K's in a special number (7206) they sell for $75.00. CENTGA @ aol ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:37:53 -0900 From: Kevin & Maureen Subject: LOTS-O-PENNSY Content-Length: 687 Most (I would hope) of you should be interested in this site: http://www.arc.umn.edu/~wes/steam.html Check out the "Lost, but not fogotten" section. You can click on the photographs for enlargements. Kevin J. Tully PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD INTO THE FUTURE ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:00:38 -0500 (EST) From: TVPedro@aol.com Subject: Re: 1967 Broadway article Content-Length: 627 This guy should be beaten to death with a section of 155 lb. rail. And after he is dead his pen should be taken from the body, in case he has a chost who also likes to write RR fiction, and call it fact. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:28:18 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Bus stations Content-Length: 794 Hello all... I saw where 30th street station in Philly was mentioned as a bus stop. i remember riding a train from Baltimore to Harrisburg (via the port road in the early seventies and riding back on the bus. Evidently Harrisburg's station was one of these Railroad-Bus stops-stations. H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:41:00 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Train line Content-Length: 1124 Hello again... i saw where the word "train line" was mentioned in a post refering to the AP-20 and AFP-20... It reminded me that some refer a "train line" as being the communication line...I remember hearing the "two peeps" well in the old PC and Amtrak days...Did E-60s have them? I wonder if the amfleet cars are so equiped? or the viewliners? Hmmm kinda off the PRR track here...oops... H.Mummert P.S. In reference to the so called Broadway article... My dad being a NEC conductor used to joke in the early PC days that if the ride became smooth we were probably off the track... tells you how bad things were then. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Bus stations (fwd) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:44:35 EST Content-Length: 1050 > Hello all... > I saw where 30th street station in Philly was mentioned as a bus stop. > i remember riding a train from Baltimore to Harrisburg (via the port > road in the early seventies and riding back on the bus. > Evidently Harrisburg's station was one of these Railroad-Bus > stops-stations. Always was, yes. Greyhound left for a while to a station on N. 5th? St., but Trailways stayed. When the station was so nicely redone, Greyhound returned. Originally, the busses had diagonal parking stations on the upper deck, the section that is now cobblestoned and cars/taxis onl. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:22:20 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: 1967 Broadway article, it could be worse! Content-Length: 2536 TVPedro@aol.com writes: >This guy should be beaten to death with a section of 155 lb. rail. And after >he is dead his pen should be taken from the body, in case he has a ghost who >also likes to write RR fiction, and call it fact. ===== I just received a catalog from a book dealer, and - to my profound dismay - find a new book: America's Fighting Railroads: A World War II Pictorial Memoir by one Don DeNevi. Why dismay, you ask? Well, this fellow is the author of "Tragic Train" (the "Plan 9 from outer space" of railroad books) in which the City of San Francisco- - changed locomotive carbody styles at random, - evidently picked up a fluted SP baggage car somewhere, - had E2 diesel locomotives with 76 inch drivers that moved with "the clank of connecting rods" - made mention of a yard workman crawling between the drivers of a locomotive to shake its ash pans, - noted the cab signal indicator as being a color-position light array - on a UP locomotive! - noted that, while the train was in the passenger station, the engineer glanced at his "valve winds" and pressure gauges and made minor adjustments to the "allerons" while the foam meter was blowing out dirty water and the steam grate shaker was ready- this on an EMD E-2 A-B-B set! - and so on, and so on, and so on. What's worse, the writing was laughably artificial; something you would expect to see in Boys Life. Moreover, the fellow plainly was writing from a political viewpoint: constantly trying to portray the Depression Era as some sort of towering social injustice, and going to exhaustive length to show how the man hunt following the wreak of the City Of San Fransisco was some sort of travesty from an old rerun of "The Untouchables". (By the way: the book, "Tragic Train" is hilarious, and it does have some stark photos of the Harney, Nevada wreak.) So: if you want to complain about "creative history", there are worse offenders than some sloppy detail work! Bob Boyd Those Classic Trains "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 23:41:50 -0500 (EST) From: PRRMAN@aol.com Subject: Re: Train Routing out of NYP question. (fwd) Content-Length: 1416 In a message dated 97-11-21 00:48:48 EST, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: >why has the open cut behind the post office never been built over? Always wondered that myself. I know nothing of engineering, building design, etc., but I would guess that it would be impossible to put the proper supports for any kind of building in there without fouling tracks. Also, it's not really much of a neighborhood. But that has never stopped a developer in the past...... >> To allow guys with special privileges, like Don Ball, access to get pictures >of GG1s, but to vex "ordinary" railfans like us permanently. Now THERE's the reason!!! Actually, the only time I ever went there, it was very easy to get to the "edge of the cliff" without trespassing or endangering myself. I think there's a parking lot on the north side of the cut. With proper lighting and lenses, you could get fair shots from there. Track level, of course, is reserved for the Don Balls. Rich Copeland > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:01:27 -0500 From: "David J. Wartell" Subject: PRRT&HS Home Page Content-Length: 1084 I received the Philly Chapter newsletter yesterday and there is a note saying that "George Burbage has asked if someone could help him with graphics for his PRRT&HS web page." Maybe the ice is breaking on that one. I for one will contact him to see what type of help he is asking for. The also mention that they are considering a CD-ROM of all of their previous High Line issues and are looking at a two year time frame. They also mention "there is a PRR Web page on the internet and that its author does a CD-ROM project about twice a year with railroad articles and information." Wonder who that is? :-) Dave Wartell djwartel@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: New PRR questions Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:11:59 EST Content-Length: 594 A bunch of new PRR questions are on http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/questions_new.html for the answering enjoyment of anyone who would like to look. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: PRR questions Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:13:24 EST Content-Length: 533 Actually, I decided to move them. Look under http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Questions/ -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:21:38 -0500 From: mxb13@psu.edu (Mike Bezilla) Subject: Re: Middle Div Local service Content-Length: 1331 These locations had yard offices & local crews/engines in the 1960s: Tyrone, Huntingdon, Mt Union, Lewistown, with the latter being by far the largest operation. This continued into the early PC era as well. -m >In fact, where else on the Middle Div. were there >yards with engines stationed there? Let me know what you think. > >PRR forever! > >Sincerely, > >George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu >Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 16:06:48 -0500 (EST) From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Restored N5C, Pennsy stations discovered Content-Length: 2871 To all: Had a very fruitful week exploring the Dayton & Western, the Dayton, Ohio, to Richmond, Ind., single-ttacked which carried "The Spirit of St. Louis," the Jeffersonian, and the vast majority of PRR New York-St. Louis varnish. There are two restored combination passenger-freight stationsstations in Dayton's western suburbs of Trotwood and Brookville which wer ebuilt by the PRR. The Trotwood station, built in 1913, is on the National Register of Historical Places. Still trying the find information about the Brookvile station (this city lies just south of Interstate 70 in the northwest corner of Montgomery Co.). Its larger than Trotwood's but appears to be of an earlier vintage. It looks very similar to the one that served Yellow Springs (construction of a replica here is underway.) To my delight there igs a restored N5C next to the Trotwood Station. I wrote down the number but fell asleep right after getting home and my wife washed the shirt. I'll just have to wait for the film to be developeed to see if it is a valid car number. It's painted a brown so deep that even in bright daylight its difficult to see the shawdow on the keystone. Guess I'll have to see if any drift cards are left so they can see what FCC looks like. From Miamitown at the west end of Dayton'ss Union Terminal Assn. tracjkage to Dodson, about a mile NW of Brookville where the Dayton & Western turned west toward Richmond, the D&W shared the tracks with the Dayton & Union RR, later a B&O property. A restored B&0 caboose C3004 in the station parking lot in Trotwood and C&O caboose #903095 is located next to the Brookville station. Local passenger on this line ended in the early 50s but intercity trains used this line until Amtrak canccelled it Washington-St. Louis National Limited in 1979. Conrail abaandoned the D&W shortly after Amtrak service ended. CSX maintained the linethrough Brookville until the late 1980s. A gravel bike path now uses the R-O-W through Trotwood and Brookville. Next trip I head west from Brookville to West Manchester an New Paris to see if any structures are left and back trhough Eaton where apparently the PRR's passenger and freight station are still standing next to the Cincinnati-Chicago single-tracked main that the NS uses for intermodal service. I plan to post the picture at Ohio's Railroad deopot website at w3.gwis.com/~west/exist.htm Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 21:17:02 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: word about a new Pennsy book Content-Length: 1000 Hello all, I had a conversation this evening with Joe Welsh, the author of "New York to Florida By Streamliner" and the new "Classic American Streamliners", and he made mention of a book now in the work for Kalmbach to be about PRR passenger service. This book will focus on the east-west trains of the Fleet of Modernism. No firm word on delivery date as yet. However, considering the quality of his previous books, you may want to keep an eye out for this one. Bob Boyd Those Classic Trains "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 00:34:07 -0900 From: Kevin & Maureen Subject: LAST DAY!!!!!! Content-Length: 765 Eveyone, Please be advised that today is the last day this email will be working. Also, please send SOMETHING to one of the following addresses so we can save YOUR ADDRESS to the new account. mknjtully@hotmail.com t1duplex@hotmail.com allegheny_route@hotmail.com Thank you all for your help with this email transfer. Kevin ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 00:41:52 -0900 From: Kevin & Maureen Subject: Snail Mail Content-Length: 746 Also, anyone who wishes to mail anything to us to include Christmas cards to us can mail them to the following address: Tully C/o Donna Kapper 331 N. Main St. P.O. Box 0213 York Springs, PA 17372 I'd like all of the people that I corrispone with about railroading to send me their snail mail address. Kevin ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 11:52:29 -0500 (EST) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: PA1&PB1 Assignments Content-Length: 774 Some other PA assignments Pavonia-Greenwich transfer Atlantic City Cresson Branch mineral service Long Branch After conversion to dual service the PA's continued to see service on local passenger runs Note: Even though the PA a units were all retro-fitted for freight service only 5758 and 5757 were painted in the freight diesel scheme. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 12:37:21 -0500 (EST) From: PRRMAN@aol.com Subject: Re: Train Routing out of NYP question. (fwd) Content-Length: 1186 In a message dated 97-11-22 07:51:40 EST, eminton@hula.net writes: >Remember Madison Square Garden was built over THE STATION without delaying >trains. Yes, no argument with that (though 'twas unfortunate....). But to my knowledge, the Garden ended up using all the existing support structure of the previous station. I don't think they did any major work down at track level. To build something new between 9th and 10th Avenues would probably require all kinds of pilings and beams to be driven into the ground at track level, and there really isn't room for that, with all the crossovers, catenary, signals and third rail out there. This does make me wonder why they didn't cover the area over when the station was built. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 15:00:11 -0500 (EST) From: NortonWRC@aol.com Subject: Painting/Decals for GG-1 Content-Length: 967 I picked up a brass GG-1 at a yard sale. It is currently painted in tuscan, single stripe but improperly numbered 5297. I am contemplating repainting it DGLE 5 stripe, but I have never repainted a model before so I need some assistance/advice. Do I need special paint for brass? What is the best paint for DGLE? Does someone make 5 stripe, keystone and numeral decals for the GG-1? If not, what's the best way to add those details? Is there anything else I should know? Thanks for your assistance, Andy Norton Lawrenceville, NJ ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:48:24 -0500 From: Robert Vogel Subject: Re: Train Routing out of NYP question. (fwd) Content-Length: 1703 PRRMAN@aol.com wrote: > To build something new between 9th and 10th Avenues would probably > require all kinds of pilings and beams to be driven into the ground at > track level, and there really isn't room for that, with all the > crossovers, catenary, signals and third rail out there. A good point. When Boston's South Station was renovated they put in foundation pilings between the tracks to support a future building over the tracks (since completed - a bus station).How much disruption was there when the tunnel connecting to the west side branch was dug? > This does make me wonder why they didn't cover the area > over when the station was built. I imagine it all boils down to real estate values through the years and the depth of the bedrock that the pilings would have to extend to. > > > Rich Copeland > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:43:03 -0500 (EST) From: Bnsftulsa@aol.com Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 11/19/97 Content-Length: 793 In a message dated 97-11-22 03:14:38 EST, you write: > >> > PRR Passenger cars were painted for snip ATSF: I dont think so, but I could be wrong. snip NYNH&H/B&M/MC (East Wind): Dont think so on this one either. You do mean lightweight cars dont you? Please tell me more. Interesting stuff isnt it? Dick Brundage Tulsa OK bnsftulsa@aol.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:43:00 -0500 (EST) From: BBReynolds@aol.com Subject: Re: 4 track main Content-Length: 1077 In a message dated 97-11-22 10:12:41 EST, bobsin@nac.net writes: << Subj: Re: 4 track main Date: 97-11-22 10:12:41 EST From: bobsin@nac.net Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Reply-to: bobsin@nac.net To: SUVCWORR@aol.com CC: bejm@eeg.ccf.org, prr-talk@dsop.com While discussing multitrack mains, not to forget that New Jersey is privileged to host SIX tracks ELMORA (South Elizabeth) to UNION (Rahway), 5.0 miles, and still desperately needs them in the rush hour. John Bobsin >> Likewise, in Philadelphia, six tracks from below Arsenal to above Brill. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA and Niles IL ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Train Routing out of NYP question. (fwd) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 8:33:08 EST Content-Length: 1546 > In a message dated 97-11-22 07:51:40 EST, eminton@hula.net writes: > > >Remember Madison Square Garden was built over THE STATION without delaying > >trains. > Yes, no argument with that (though 'twas unfortunate....). But to my > knowledge, > the Garden ended up using all the existing support structure of the > previous station. I don't think they did any major work down at track level. Not according to the books on Penn Station - new I-beams were installed through new holes in the floor, going to ground level. Especially for the circular MSG, I beams in the appropriate locations were not in place before. However, > To build something new between 9th and 10th Avenues would probably > require all kinds of pilings and beams to be driven into the ground at > track level, and there really isn't room for that, with all the > crossovers, catenary, signals and third rail out there. Exactly. That's the big difference. MSG was built over straight, parallel trackage. That does not exist over the open area -- or at least would be much tougher. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Train Routing out of NYP question. (fwd) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 8:42:10 EST Content-Length: 706 > How much disruption was there when the tunnel > connecting to the west side branch was dug? Not a whole lot, as I recall from Amtrak Bulletin Orders. A track or 2 at a time. (Though, given that this is Penn Station, this could be a lot.) -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:23:54 +0000 From: "Phillips, III, J.A." Subject: Nothing Else Like It Content-Length: 10201 _____________________ NOTHING ELSE LIKE IT: A SHORT NOTE ON THE PENN CENTRAL AND THE LIFE AND TIMES OF PRR'S DAVID C. BEVAN Author: Bevan, David C. (David Crumley), 1906-1996. Title: Papers, 1951-1979. Description: 67 linear ft. Notes: David C. Bevan was born in Wayne, Pa., on August 5, 1906. He received his BA from Haverford College in 1929 and his MBA from the Harvard Business School in 1931. He worked for the Provident Trust Company until 1942, when he resigned to join the War Production Board. He spent most of the War working for Lend-Lease in Australia and during 1945 served as deputy head of the Mission of Economic Affairs at the US Embassy in London. He returned to the Provident Trust Company briefly but moved to the New York Life Insurance Company in the fall of 1946. In May 1951 Bevan became Vice-President in charge of Finance for the Pennsylvania Railroad in Philadelphia. This was only the second time that the company had gone outside its own ranks to fill a vice-presidency. The railroad was in serious difficulty since the war traffic boom had evaporated, and its financial and accounting practices were archaic. Bevan overhauled the financial department, brought in new talent from GE and IBM and introduced modern accounting, budgeting and forecasting practices. PRR President James Symes, however, had pegged the firm's survival on a merger with the parallel New York Central Railroad. As a condition of the merger, the PRR was obliged to dispose of its profitable investments in the Norfolk and Western Railway. Bevan began a large diversification program to redirect this investment into oil pipelines and Sun Belt real estate. The Pennsylvania-New York Central merger took effect on February 1, 1968. However, it had the effect of multiplying the railroad's problems. The plan for merging two large and philosophically different organizations was not well thought out, and a bitter three-way rivalry broke out between Chairman Stuart T. Saunders, a lawyer, President Alfred E. Perlman, an operating man, and Bevan. Eventually, all three were dismissed by the board on June 8, 1970, in a last-ditch effort to retain the confidence of the company's bankers. Penn Central filed for reorganization on June 21, the largest American corporate bankruptcy to that time. The scale of the bankruptcy led to four separate government investigations between 1970 and 1972. For the House Committee on Banking and Currency, led by the old Texas populist, Wright Patman. Bevan was the principal villian and scapegoat. Ignoring evidence that the railroad operation had long been unprofitable in its own right and had been supported only by the income from outside investments and the sale of capital assets, Patman pilloried Bevan for draining the company's resources into his diversification program. Patman's investigation highlighted three peripheral episodes rife with the scent of scandal and corruption, but whose financial contribution to the bankruptcy was negligible: the PRR's investment in Executive Jet Aviation; Bevan's participation in Penphil, a private investment club that invested in some of the same companies as the PRR; and the theft of $4 million from Penn Central by a shadowy German industrialist, Fidel Goetz, who tricked company officials into depositing it in a phony Liechtenstein bank. Bevan was named in two criminal suits arising from the bankruptcy in 1972. Philadelphia County District Attorney Arlen Specter brought indictments in the EJA episode, and a federal grand jury investigated the Goetz affair and indicted Bevan and four others in 1974. Bevan was acquitted in both cases. He died in Bryn Mawr on April 8, 1996. The papers consist of official records collected by Bevan in arranging his own defense in the two criminal proceedings and in the numerous civil suits and hearings arising from the Penn Central bankruptcy. They include copies taken from his official files as a PRR vice-president going back to 1951, as well as papers related to the suits themselves. The PRR and Penn Central materials include correspondence, memoranda, financial statements and reports, speeches by Saunders and Bevan and publicity surrounding the merger and bankruptcy. The records concentrate on issues later developed during the post-bankruptcy litigation, such as Bevan's financial and accounting reforms, the diversification program (particularly Executive Jet Aviation), the negotiations for the Penn Central merger, and conflicts with Perlman, Saunders, and Saunders' administrative assistant, Basil Cole. Records relating to the Penn Central bankruptcy are primarily depositions, briefs, petitions and pleadings before the US District Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania. However, the documents submitted to the court do include relevant copies of Penn Central files. The investigations series includes correspondence, statements and transcripts from the four government investigations and the federal grand jury probe, particularly focusing on Penphil, EJA and the Goetz affair. The litigation records include correspondence and court documents generated by Arlen Specter's prosecution, by the criminal suit arising from the Goetz affair, and by the class action civil suits involving Penphil and Bevan's handling of PRR finances and its pension trust. The miscellany consists of copies of memoranda, correspondence and reports collected by Bevan but not pertaining to a specific suit. There are also selected documents from the Penn Central reorganization case leading to the formation of Conrail in 1976. Records not open to the public. Literary rights held by depositor. Unpublished finding aid available at the repository. Related materials in: Hagley Museum and Library, Pennsylvania Railroad Company Records, Accessions 1807 and 1810. Subjects: Bevan, Thomas R. Butcher, Howard, 1902-1991. Cole, Basil. Gengras, E. Clayton, 1908- . Gerstnecker, William R. (William Robert), 1914-. Goetz, Fidel, d. 1976. Hanley, Edward J. (Edward James), 1903- . Haslett, Robert. Hill, Charles S. (Charles Strunk), 1919- . Hodge, Charles J., 1907- . Lassiter, Olbert F., 1918?-1973. Lifsey, Julian H. O'Herron, Jonathan, 1929- . Perlman, Alfred E. (Alfred Edward), 1902-1983. Pucher, Franz. Rome, Edwin P. (Edwin Phillips), 1915-1987. Rosenbaum, Francis N. Rosenbaum, Joseph H. Salsbury, Stephen. Saunders, Stuart T. (Stuart Thomas), 1909-1987. Seabrook, John M. (John Martin), 1917- . Shaffer, John H. (John Henry), 1912- . Specter, Arlen. Sundlun, Bruce G. (Bruce George), 1920- . Wilson, David L. American Contract Company. Arvida Corporation. Buckeye Pipe Line Company. Burlington Industries, Inc. Detroit, Toledo, and Ironton Railroad. Executive Jet Aviation, Inc. First National City Bank (New York, N.Y.). Great Southwest Corporation. International Air Bahamas. Kaneb Pipe Line Company. Macco Realty Company. Madison Square Garden Corporation. New York Central Railroad Company. Pacific States Auxiliary Corporation. Penn Central Holding Company. Penn Central Transportation Company. Pennsylvania Railroad. Pennsylvania Railroad Company. Financial Dept. Penphil (Investment club). Toledo, Peoria & Western Railroad Company. US Civil Aeronautics Board. US Senate. Committee on Commerce. Special Staff for the Penn Central Enquiry. US District Court (Pennsylvania: Eastern District). US Interstate Commerce Commission. US Securities and Exchange Commission. US Steel Corporation. Airlines. Bankruptcy. Business failures. Corporations -- Corrupt practices. Corporations -- Finance. Executives -- Conduct of life. Executives -- Pensions. Executives -- Salaries, etc. Executives -- Sexual behavior. Insider trading in securities. International finance. Investment clubs. Pipelines. Railroads -- Consolidation. Railroads -- Cost of operation. Railroads -- Finance. Railroads -- Statistics. Real estate business -- California. Real estate business -- Florida. Real estate business -- Texas. Real estate investment. Liechtenstein -- Corporations -- Corrupt Practices. Location: Hagley Museum and Library, Manuscripts and Archives Department, 298 Buck Road East, Greenville, De. 19807. Control No.: DEHV90-A93 -- Tell Tale News | http://pw2.netcom.com/~whstlpnk/telltale.html Northern Pacific | http://pw2.netcom.com/~whstlpnk/np.html Historical Assoc. | http://www.employees.org/~davison/nprha/nprha.html || N O R T H E R N P A C I F I C R A I L W A Y || Route of the Vista-Dome North Coast Limited ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:24:53 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: Painting/Decals for GG-1 Content-Length: 3902 Andy, At 3:00 PM -0500 11/23/97, NortonWRC@aol.com wrote: >I picked up a brass GG-1 at a yard sale. At a YARD sale??? Interesting... >It is currently painted in tuscan, >single stripe but improperly numbered 5297. I am contemplating repainting it >DGLE 5 stripe, but I have never repainted a model before so I need some >assistance/advice. > >Do I need special paint for brass? well, first you need to strip it - two good strippers come to mind - Chameleon, and ELO (sold as Easy Lift Off - Poly S/Floquill). Then make sure any tarnish is removed (Don't use abrasives!!!). Finally make sure the loco is really clean, and dry - no fingerprints! >What is the best paint for DGLE? This list has talked about this a few times and there is no consensus, however both Accu paint (or whatever it is this week) and Poly Scale (NOT poly S) make nice DGLE, and they are water soluble. I would suggest a primer coat. I often use floquil grey primer. This provides a nice base for the color coats, and I think it tends to "stick" better. "Baking" the finish on, at a very low oven temp (eg 120 degrees F) helps too. I would definitely mix a fair amount of gloss finish (say 5 parts paint to 1 part gloss) into these paints, unless you plan to model a fairly well weathered unit. The gloss finish will help the decals go on better too. BTW, remember that the frames, pilot, and grab irons were black. >Does someone make 5 stripe, keystone and numeral decals for the GG-1? Of course they do! After all, it is only the most popular paint scheme in the world! First though you need to know if you are modeling pre or post 1953. Pre 1953 lettering was "Bronze Gold" in block (up to 1937), Futura (1937-42), or modified block (1942-1953) styles. If you are modeling the 1940s era, it is always fun to throw in one or two Futura lettered locos and cars! After 1953, the coloring became yellow ("Dulux Gold"). This is very nicely done in Microscale set 87-67,Pennsylvania RR,Diesel Cab & Electrics. It is also available from Champion (Electric Loco - GG1, Dulux Gold, BRH-20 for HO Scale) The pre 1953 scheme is available from several sources including Microscale (87-677,Pennsylvania RR,Locomotives 5 Stp.Gold) and Champion (Electric Loco - GG1 - Bronze gold lettering, very complete, nothing lacking, BRH-18). BTW, all of the above decals are HO scale. Of these, my personal choice is Microscale, since these are among the thinest decals made - the film dissappears when you spray over them with a top coat. The new Champion set however is very accurate, so it is well worth looking at. Happy Stripping, Painting, Decaling, Weathering, and oh yeah, RUNNING! Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** "Illegitimi non Carborundum!" _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:59:56 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 11/19/97 Content-Length: 1318 Bnsftulsa@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 97-11-22 03:14:38 EST, you write: > > > >> > > PRR Passenger cars were painted for > snip > ATSF: I dont think so, but I could be wrong. > snip > NYNH&H/B&M/MC (East Wind): Dont think so on this one either. > > You do mean lightweight cars dont you? Please tell me more. > Interesting stuff isnt it? I don't have the original message, so I may be missing the point of your discussion, but the PRR had cars painted in the East Wind (Yellow++), per the PRRTHS book _Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Car Painting and Lettering_, pages 112-113. The photo @ bottom of p 113 shows a B-60. The text lists several cars by type and number. Pages 75-77, same source, describe cars assigned to ATSF service, painted two-tone grey: Imperial Park, ..Point, and ..Pass; 4DB, 4C, 2DR prewar lightweight cars. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:15:58 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Item #2356773 Content-Length: 559 Greetings, Above item listed on E-bay "Broadway Limited" ......... http://iguana.Ebay2.com/ Sincerely, S.A. McCALL hosam ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:24:21 -0500 (EST) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 11/19/97 Content-Length: 1002 In a message dated 97-11-24 04:17:13 EST, Bnsftulsa@aol.com writes: << > >> > PRR Passenger cars were painted for snip ATSF: I dont think so, but I could be wrong. snip NYNH&H/B&M/MC (East Wind): Dont think so on this one either. You do mean lightweight cars dont you? Please tell me more. Interesting stuff isnt it? Dick Brundage Tulsa OK bnsftulsa@aol.com >> Yes these are correct. Please see the PRRT&HS Special Publication by Blardone and Tulip Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Car Painting and Lettering (may not be exact title. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 24 Nov 97 12:16:25 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 11/19/97 Content-Length: 6044 --====51524950495349555249===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" The East Wind train was a special scheme, unlike any other I've seen -- Black roof, yellow sides, silver window band lined in black and three or four horizontal silver stripes below the window. These were a combination of lightweight and heavyweight cars. The baggage car (probably a PRR car) originally was painted so the yellow and silver stiping ended in a masked curve at the locomotive end, in order to blend in with the black (or DGLE) of the hauling road's locomotive / tender. I think the trucks and underframe were black, though the trucks may have been silver -- I've only seen one color picture of this train, taken at an angle. I believe this train's paint scheme and assigned equipment was discontinued due to the war. It was still on schedules postwar, but with a typical mish-mash of the four road's equipment, as was typical of most northern New England trains that ran to/through Penn Station. The East Wind was a train originating in Washington DC to Bangor, Maine via PRR/NH/B&M/MEC. The cars were lettered "The East Wind" on the letterboards but probably carried the owners initials near the car doors. I don't have any documentation about ownership of the cars. I think PRR also owned Budd stainless steel cars of the ATSF design, lettered "PENNSYLVANIA" for through movements to the west coast. I am less certain of this information. Bnsftulsa wrote: >In a message dated 97-11-22 03:14:38 EST, you write: > >> >> >> PRR Passenger cars were painted for >snip >ATSF: I dont think so, but I could be wrong. >snip >NYNH&H/B&M/MC (East Wind): Dont think so on this one either. > >You do mean lightweight cars dont you? Please tell me more. >Interesting stuff isnt it? >Dick Brundage Tulsa OK bnsftulsa@aol.com >> >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====51524950495349555249===1 Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:15:13 -0500 (EST) From: Da72jmk@aol.com Subject: Re: Bus stations Content-Length: 703 In a message dated 97-11-22 13:22:34 EST, H.Mummert writes: << Evidently Harrisburg's station was one of these Railroad-Bus stops-stations. >> Yes, it was. Both Trailways and Greyhound buses stopped there. John Keel ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Nov 97 15:19:47 EST From: Subject: Re: Painting/Decals for GG-1 Content-Length: 4829 "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." , on 11/24/97 8:24 AM: responded to an earlier question. "BTW, remember that the frames, pilot, and grab irons were black." Is it safe to assume that the pilot would be painted black on every locomotive painted DGLE? If that was the policy then were their any exceptions to the rule.? Kris Kollar, Hershey, PA ------------- Original Text From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." , on 11/24/97 8:24 AM: Andy, At 3:00 PM -0500 11/23/97, NortonWRC@aol.com wrote: >I picked up a brass GG-1 at a yard sale. At a YARD sale??? Interesting... >It is currently painted in tuscan, >single stripe but improperly numbered 5297. I am contemplating repainting it >DGLE 5 stripe, but I have never repainted a model before so I need some >assistance/advice. > >Do I need special paint for brass? well, first you need to strip it - two good strippers come to mind - Chameleon, and ELO (sold as Easy Lift Off - Poly S/Floquill). Then make sure any tarnish is removed (Don't use abrasives!!!). Finally make sure the loco is really clean, and dry - no fingerprints! >What is the best paint for DGLE? This list has talked about this a few times and there is no consensus, however both Accu paint (or whatever it is this week) and Poly Scale (NOT poly S) make nice DGLE, and they are water soluble. I would suggest a primer coat. I often use floquil grey primer. This provides a nice base for the color coats, and I think it tends to "stick" better. "Baking" the finish on, at a very low oven temp (eg 120 degrees F) helps too. I would definitely mix a fair amount of gloss finish (say 5 parts paint to 1 part gloss) into these paints, unless you plan to model a fairly well weathered unit. The gloss finish will help the decals go on better too. BTW, remember that the frames, pilot, and grab irons were black. >Does someone make 5 stripe, keystone and numeral decals for the GG-1? Of course they do! After all, it is only the most popular paint scheme in the world! First though you need to know if you are modeling pre or post 1953. Pre 1953 lettering was "Bronze Gold" in block (up to 1937), Futura (1937-42), or modified block (1942-1953) styles. If you are modeling the 1940s era, it is always fun to throw in one or two Futura lettered locos and cars! After 1953, the coloring became yellow ("Dulux Gold"). This is very nicely done in Microscale set 87-67,Pennsylvania RR,Diesel Cab & Electrics. It is also available from Champion (Electric Loco - GG1, Dulux Gold, BRH-20 for HO Scale) The pre 1953 scheme is available from several sources including Microscale (87-677,Pennsylvania RR,Locomotives 5 Stp.Gold) and Champion (Electric Loco - GG1 - Bronze gold lettering, very complete, nothing lacking, BRH-18). BTW, all of the above decals are HO scale. Of these, my personal choice is Microscale, since these are among the thinest decals made - the film dissappears when you spray over them with a top coat. The new Champion set however is very accurate, so it is well worth looking at. Happy Stripping, Painting, Decaling, Weathering, and oh yeah, RUNNING! Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ **************************************************************************** **** "Illegitimi non Carborundum!" _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:59:06 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: Painting/Decals for GG-1 Content-Length: 2119 At 3:19 PM -0500 11/24/97, kkollar@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL wrote: >"BTW, remember that the frames, pilot, and grab irons were black." > >Is it safe to assume that the pilot would be painted black on every >locomotive painted DGLE? If that was the policy then were their any >exceptions to the rule.? It was policy. Of course, as soon as you say it was a rule, someone will find the exception. I am not aware of any exceptions however ! Interestingly, the bottom 6 inches or so of the P5a modified electric body was considered frame and was therefore black. This contrasts nicely with the DGLE, even on B&W photos, showing the DGLE body color with a black band below. The lettering on these locos was in the black area. Additionally, frames and running gear on some locos may have been newly painted black, while the body was heavily weathered, reportedly in order to hide defects like cracks from inspectors! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** "Illegitimi non Carborundum!" _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 19:10:40 -0500 (EST) From: Hal6963@aol.com Subject: Florida Service Paint Schemes? Content-Length: 619 New related question - What color did the PRR paint passenger cars used the West Coast Champions operated jointly by the Pennsy and the Atlantic Coast Line for service to St Petersburg and Tampa? ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: 4 track main Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:03:30 -0500 (EST) From: "Ken Reinert" Content-Length: 1832 BBReynolds@aol.com wrote: > Likewise, in Philadelphia, six tracks from below Arsenal to above Brill. Ah, perhaps six tracks wide, but only four of them are considered as part of any single line. From Brill (MP 4.2) to Phil (MP 3.6), there are four tracks. From Phil to Arsenal (MP 2.7) there are six tracks, but two of those tracks are Conrail's Arsenal Connection, part of the Harrisburg Line. The other four tracks are Amtrak's main line. But: (there's a gotcha) two of those tracks (No. 2 and No. 3) go to Penn Interlocking (lower level of 30th Street Station) while the other two (No. 4 and No. 5) go to Arsenal Interlocking, controlled from Broad Tower on the SEPTA side. No. 4 and No. 5 run from Phil to the 20/21 signal bridge (very close to old Arsenal tower itself, which still stands). (Take a look at http://members.aol.com/amtrakmaps.) Prior to 1984 (early 1985?) before Phil was placed in service (and Brill was subsequently closed and the interlocking removed), there were four tracks to Arsenal, with the High Line (Harrisburg Line) diverging there; Phil was part of a project that included the Airport Line, removing a *lot* of switches from Arsenal (most of the interlocking was situated on a curve) and realigning tracks so that Amtrak trains would have a "straight shot" out of Philly instead of having to make an obligatory crossover move at Brill. Ken ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:06:54 +0000 From: "Phillips, III, J.A." Subject: The ATO: A Subject Worth Studying Content-Length: 9065 CUNY- PRR- Does anyone know if other roads formed similar organizations or committees? Author: Association of the Transportation Officers of the Pennsylvania Railroad. Title: Records, 1879-1929. Description: 16.5 linear ft. Notes: Duplicates of most reports are located at: Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission, P. O. Box 1026, Harrisburg, Pa. 17108-1026. The Association of the Transportation Officers of the Pennsylvania Railroad was a professional organization whose membership was drawn from the Transportation (Operating) Department of the PRR's Lines East Organization. Its goal was to determine, through thorough investigation and frank discussion among those most closely involved, the best methods of operation that could be employed on the PRR. This included the standardization of rules and equipment, the elimination of faulty practices, and the implementation of the most safe and economical modes of operation. The ATO grew out of the same general movement to systematize the workings of the department that had produced the Grand Division arrangement in 1873. The General and Division Superintendents began meeting regularly to discuss operating problems in 1875, and on May 20, 1879, the ATO was formed, complete with its own constitution and bylaws. However, it was allowed to lapse in 1884. On June 23, 1893, the ATO was revived on a stronger basis under the direction of General Manager Sutherland M. Prevost. The new organization paralleled that of the Transportation Department. The General Manager as head of the department was president of the ATO while the three Standing Committees--on Conducting Transportation, on Motive Power, and on Maintenance of Way--corresponded to the main functional divisions of the department and were headed by the appropriate staff officers. Additional special committees to investigate specific questions were also set up as the need arose, some of which remained in existence for many years and became standing committees themselves, such as that on Interlocking and Block Signals. The ATO functioned somewhat along the lines of the professional engineering societies with which its members would have been quite familiar. The members submitted questions or topics for consideration, and these were referred to the appropriate committee for investigation. The committee would examine all aspects of the problem and draw up a report for presentation and adoption at the ATO's semi-annual meetings. Once adopted, the reports were referred to the General Manager; if approved by him, their recommendations were implemented throughout the PRR Lines East via the normal channels of organization. After the reorganization of 1920, the ATO was expanded to include the former Lines West, and the reports were submitted to the VP in Charge of Operations for approval. The ATO was allowed to lapse after the onset of the Depression in 1929. The ATO records include minutes of the semi-annual meetings and of the various committees in various forms, including shorthand notes, some verbatim transcripts, minute books, and printed copies. Also included are lists of officers and members of the several committees, copies of the constitutions and bylaws, copies of committee reports, correspondence on grade crossing protection, and maps of telegraph wire systems on the Lines East divisions. The bulk of the ATO records (approximately 13 cubic feet) consist of files from the office of the secretary, whose primary duty was to coordinate the activity of the various committees. These files were begun about 1895. The files are arranged in a generally chronological fashion, each having been opened when a particular topic first came up. They were then added to over the years and files on the same topic--or different aspects of it--were opened later. As a result, a strict chronological format was not maintained, and any one subject is probably dealt with in many files, widely separated by file number. Fortunately, there is a very detailed and well cross-referenced index which enables the researcher to identify all files relating to the topic being examined. This bound index book is located in the first box of ATO material. Part of the secretary's files naturally deal with the routine functions associated with his office, such as recording the minutes of both the semi-annual meetings and the meetings of the various committees. They also deal with overseeing publication and distribution of the committees' reports. Of much more interest are the files which actually deal with the subjects considered by the committees. These include files on: the introduction of automatic signals and interlocking systems; the use of hand signals such as flags, fuses, and torpedoes; the construction of track, including information on crossties, frogs, switches, tie plates, curves, and track gauge; crossing protection; the coordination of freight movement and utilization of freight facilities and yards; the appointment, training, and duties of various classes of employees, such as telegraph operators and freight agents; the securing of proper fuel supplies for the railroad; LCL traffic; smoke abatement; and train rules Discussion of these matters is usually presented in the form of printed reports, which are included in the files. Most of the reports include a review of current practices, on the PRR and on other foreign and domestic railroads, and their findings are summarized in the form of a definite recommendation. About 0.5 cubic foot of the ATO material consists of complimentary copies of the proceedings and reports of the Association of the Transportation Officers of the PRR, Lines West, dating from 1896-1914. These deal with the same sort of subjects as the Lines East files, primarily with the question of signals. The two ATO organizations did not take any steps to coordinate their investigations prior to their amalgamation in 1920. Additional items of interest in the ATO material include several reports of the Association of Freight Traffic Officers, the ATO's counterpart in the Freight (Traffic) Department. Also of interest is material relating to several dinners given by the General Manager for the members of the ATO. These cover arrangements for the venue, the food, and the entertainment. Most of the latter was provided by the members themselves, as is evidenced by several programs and songbooks in the collection. These feature versified salutes to the higher-ranking officers of the Transportation Department, set to popular tunes. They also include satires on Theodore Roosevelt, William Randolph Hearst, and other Progressive Era personalities perceived to be anti-railroad. No restrictions on use. Literary rights retained by depositor. Unpublished finding aid available at the repository. Forms part of: Pennsylvania Railroad Company Records. Location: Hagley Museum and Library Manuscripts and Archives Department, 298 Buck Road East, Greenville, Del. 19807. Author: Pennsylvania Railroad. Secretary. Title: Minutes and reports of the Association of Transportation Officers, 1893-1929. Description: 5.0 cubic ft. (5 cartons). Notes: Printed minutes and reports of the Association of Transportation Officers of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company from 1893 to 1929. Minutes of the ATO and its various committees, as well as their reports generally include the location and date of meetings, names of individuals present, text of discussions or findings, and related materials. These files deal with issues such as assorted rules, general orders, fiscal concerns, passenger and freight services, hygiene on trains, materials, motive power equipment, communications, personnel, facilities, general policy, operations, and so forth. This series documents many of the key issues facing the PRR during this period and the decisions that were reached regarding them. Location: Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission, Division of Archives and Manuscripts, P.O. Box 1026, Harrisburg, PA 17108-1026. Control No.: PASV90-A149 ______ SOURCE: National Union Catalog of Manuscript Collections (NUCMC) http://lcweb.loc.gov/coll/nucmc/nucmctxt.html -- Tell Tale News | http://pw2.netcom.com/~whstlpnk/telltale.html Northern Pacific | http://pw2.netcom.com/~whstlpnk/np.html Historical Assoc. | http://www.employees.org/~davison/nprha/nprha.html || N O R T H E R N P A C I F I C R A I L W A Y || Route of the Vista-Dome North Coast Limited ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:07:44 +0000 Subject: Selling? From: locoshop@juno.com (Jeremy C Helms) Content-Length: 686 Hello all, What, if there is one, is the policy or feelings on trying to sell things on the talk list? Just a question I was wondering about since I have seen a few (and I mean a very few) people trying to sell some models here on the board. Jeremy Helms ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:52:58 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: nothing else like it Content-Length: 1079 And then, "Phillips, III, J.A." writes: >_____________________ >NOTHING ELSE LIKE IT: >A SHORT NOTE ON THE PENN CENTRAL AND THE LIFE AND TIMES OF PRR'S DAVID >C. BEVAN ====== If I recall correctly, there was a book published on the PC collapse which was entitled "No Way To Run A Railroad" (or perhaps "A Hell Of A Way To Run A Railroad"?). As a case study of the downfall of The Mighty, and of the political and front office shenanigans that can wreak a railroad, this book is fascinating. I recommend it! Bob Boyd Those Classic Trains "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 21:42:52 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Trainphone Content-Length: 822 Hello all... I was looking at the picture that Jerry is using for PRR talk at Keystone Crossings and wondered what class of engine it might be.... I looked through my books and it seems to be one of the four later streamlined K-4s engines...they are the only engines that have a cab like in the picture...Hmmm am i right? H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:04:48 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Florida trains Content-Length: 1720 Hi again... This is for the question about Florida trains...and others... In the book.."PRR color guide to freight and passenger equipment" by david sweetland and robert yanosey it shows various cars in different trains... it shows the "Imperial Bench" and "Imperial Ridge" (4-4-2 cars built by ACF,1948) on Seaboard coastline train no.75 the "gulf coast special" at Fayetteville,N.C. in 1969. both cars are in standard PRR passenger paint. There is also a shot of the car "Chester"(sleeper?)at Dallas UT being switched in a AT&SF train in 1964.this is a stainless steel car. another photo on the same page shows car "Silver Rapids" (10-6 Budd 1949) (PRR 8449) at sunnyside yards in 1969...this car was clearly used on the California Zephyr...even has the full skirting. one other photo shows the car "Schuylkill River"(PS106 Pullman) on Southern train no.29 "The Peach Queen" at Atlanta in 1969.matches the other southern cars... these are from pages 26 and 27 of the book. there was a article and plan given a short time back of some other sleeping cars built for the PRR but painted for the MP "Eagle" in Model Railroader. Will let you all know as soon as i find it... H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:12:26 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Arsenal Content-Length: 818 Hello... speaking of Arsenal....My dad told me that arsenal tower was for years The PRRs division point for the Philadelphia and Maryland divisions. I guess the old P.W.&B must have started out from near-by many years before, before the PRR bought it out.Dad was and still is a NEC conductor... works Washington to N.Y. H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:53:03 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Passenger Cars Content-Length: 2099 Hello again... In 1949 and 1950 ACF built 23 cars from Pullman plan 9008.(10-6) the lot nos. for them were 3200,3212 and 3079. all of lot no 3200 was built for through service on the MP "Eagle" and were painted to match. there were 14 cars in this group,but only 11 were assigned to it. these 11 were assigned PRR nos 8430-8440 but were named to match the "Eagle " cars...I.E. eagle beam.eagle bluff,eagle charm,eagle chief, cove,eye,grand,head,oak,park and eagle pass. the other three cars (8441-8443) along with the other two lots became part of the "Rapids" series. 8442-blue rapids and 8443 buffalo rapids were painted two tone grey for UPs "Overland" connection trains. in 1955 "Buffalo Rapids" was painted in yellow for UPs "city" trains. 8441 was originally named "Hudson Rapids" but the same year was renamed "Amon G.Carter"and painted in standard PRR colors. between 1964 and 1966 the "Eagle" cars were renamed in the "Rapids" series and painted in standard PRR colors. these cars were retired starting in 1967,with some making it into Penn Central...none ever made it into Amtrak. The article on these cars is in the July,1996 Model Railroader. also if anyone wants to know....FYI The 1949 version of the "Broadway Limited" is in the October 1994 issue of Model Railroader and a article on the P-85b is in the October 1995 issue of MR these cars were used on the "Jeffersonian" and the "Trail Blazer" ACF builts being nos 4068-4092,Altoona builts being nos.4100-4169 Hope this helps a little H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:31:51 -0500 (EST) From: Bnsftulsa@aol.com Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 11/19/97 Content-Length: 1425 I see where I was confused. I wasnt thinking that far back. Now I understand. You are right about the East Wind. > Pages 75-77, same source, describe cars assigned to ATSF service, > painted two-tone grey: Imperial Park, ..Point, and ..Pass; 4DB, 4C, 2DR > prewar lightweight cars. I have heard of 2 or 3 NYC lw Pullmans that had their trucks painted silver to blend in with the silver trucks of the SF cars, but this is the first time I heard that the PRR had cars painted with PRR on them that were two toned grey and ran on the SF. I did know about the interchange of slprs but PRR in grey was new to me. I sure have learned alot about the PRR since I subscribed to this list. Some time when I have more time I will post a copy of a NHRR bulletin regarding PRR steam that actually ran on the NH in the New York City area in the late 30's! They were enroute back to the PRR following the 1938 Worlds Fair. Dick Brundage Tulsa OK bnsftulsa@aol.com > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 21:08:49 -0800 From: Claus Schlund Subject: Re: Painting/Decals for GG-1 Content-Length: 1631 Wow! a GG1 at a garage sale! What a find! Never would happen out here in San Francisco though! ;-) Till later... Claus Schlund (modeling steam-era PRR in N scale) NortonWRC@aol.com wrote: > > I picked up a brass GG-1 at a yard sale. It is currently painted in tuscan, > single stripe but improperly numbered 5297. I am contemplating repainting it > DGLE 5 stripe, but I have never repainted a model before so I need some > assistance/advice. > > Do I need special paint for brass? > What is the best paint for DGLE? > Does someone make 5 stripe, keystone and numeral decals for the GG-1? If > not, what's the best way to add those details? > Is there anything else I should know? > > Thanks for your assistance, > Andy Norton > Lawrenceville, NJ > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:23:13 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Florida Service Paint Schemes? Content-Length: 2145 Now Hal6963@aol.com asks: >New related question - What color did the PRR paint passenger cars used the >West Coast Champions operated jointly by the Pennsy and the Atlantic Coast >Line for service to St Petersburg and Tampa? > ===== Hello Hal, The PRR joint service lightweights were mainly fluted coaches and 14-2 sleepers from ACF (evidently, PRR used its muscle to take the revenue cars as its share of the Florida pool trains, leaving the other roads to pick up the non-revenue equipment). They were in natural stainless steel with black roof and underframe, with letterboards in ACL purple. The lettering was as follows: * a centered letterboard above the windows reading PENNSYLVANIA * a smaller centered letterboard below the windows with the car name * on the Pullmans, 2 small letterboards next to the doors reading PULLMAN All lettering was silver on ACL purple. I can't say what the typeface is called, but it looks like the standard Pullman lettering. There were also various PRR cars assigned temporarily as relief and peak load cars. These were the standard tuscan and gold scheme. Included in these are smoothside postwar "County" 10-6, "Imperial" 4-4-2 and "Creek" 12-4 sleepers as well as the "Tower View" SE obs; all seen on various trains. There is little doubt that various PRR heavyweight head end also made its way down there. I recommend a book: "New York To Florida by Streamliner" from Andover Books by Joe Welsh. It is an excellent reference to the Florida trade and PRRs part therein- not to mention a most entertaining read. All my best, Bob Boyd Those Classic Trains "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Selling? Date: Tue, 25 Nov 97 06:51:47 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 2231 On 11/24/97 4:07 PM, Jeremy C Helms (locoshop@juno.com) wrote: >What, if there is one, is the policy or feelings on trying to sell things >on the talk list? Just a question I was wondering about since I have >seen a few (and I mean a very few) people trying to sell some models here >on the board. As listmom, I monitor the situation and make sure it doesn't get out of hand. For the most part, I do not want people posting that they have "x" for sale for "$y" and making a regular thing of it. The few posts that have been made have largely done so after first asking permission. For instance, Bob Boyd is starting his new business (Those Classic Trains) and asked if he could plug the company. I said "no problem". His plug was for his web address so that people could visit if they were interested, rather than continually plugging product on the list. I make mention of the CD I sell, because it allows folks to get files from my Web site in a more suitable fashion. Offloading the server of FTP tasks helps Web users and makes the list run cleaner. Two exceptions -- made because they offset costs of the server -- is that advertising is available on the main page of "Keystone Crossings" and in the footers of the lists. Either runs $20 per month. Contact me if you are interested. My recommendation for selling is to use eBay (linked via http://prr.dsop.com/classified.html). I have hundreds of vintage railroad ads that I will shortly be selling via eBay. I have already had tremendous success selling computer products on their auction. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Trainphone Date: Tue, 25 Nov 97 06:53:09 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1210 On 11/24/97 10:42 PM, Hank Mummert (bubbles@visi.net) wrote: > I was looking at the picture that Jerry is using for PRR talk at Keystone > Crossings and wondered what class of engine it might be.... > I looked through my books and it seems to be one of the four later > streamlined K-4s engines...they are the only engines that have a cab like > in the picture...Hmmm am i right? Probably. The portion I used is the entire portion of the original ad from National Geographic. The ad ran in the early 40s. Would be a streamlined K4 or perhaps a T1. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Rivarossi Passenger Cars Date: Tue, 25 Nov 97 08:42:31 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1468 These are trained professionals; do not try this at home... I just picked up via an eBay auction a pair of Rivarossi passenger cars in Pennsy paint. One is the "Mountain View" (Class POS21), the other the "Morrow Brook" (Class PS125). Has anyone ever attempted to refinish JUST THE NAME AREA on one of these cars? If so, how did you do it? What paint did you use? What decals for the new name? Etc. I will probably chicken out of such a touch up, but the "Mountain View" was run on the "Broadway Limited". By changing its name to "Federal View" or "Metropolitan View", it would better represent my "Liberty Limited". As for the 12-5, the "Morrow Brook" was assigned to general service as built. Though this could be used as-is, I might consider assigning it a name that I know was assigned to "Liberty Limited". --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: Trainphone Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:38:53 -0500 Content-Length: 874 I would agree. Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ---------- > Hello all... > I was looking at the picture that Jerry is using for PRR talk at Keystone > Crossings and wondered what class of engine it might be.... > I looked through my books and it seems to be one of the four later > streamlined K-4s engines...they are the only engines that have a cab like > in the picture...Hmmm am i right? ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: Senator/Congressional Date: Tue, 25 Nov 97 10:44:34 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1118 >I have ordered a set of the announced brass passenger cars by Challenger. >Because of the ellegant investment I would like to find an appropriate head >end. Speaking of Challenger...did anyone see the "Fleet of Modernism" set advertised in the last issue of MR? To say "beautiful" would be an understatement! I forget who the manufacturer was...maybe it was Challenger, but I don't recall that it was. Anyway, it was one of the mega-expensive brass types. Maybe someday! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:47:04 -0500 (EST) From: ARRJERRY@aol.com Subject: Senator/Congressional Content-Length: 729 Hi gang, I have ordered a set of the announced brass passenger cars by Challenger. Because of the ellegant investment I would like to find an appropriate head end. Does anyone know if the Senator or Congressional were ever pulled by something other than GG-1's? Jerry ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Florida Service Paint Schemes? From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 97 09:47:48 -0500 Content-Length: 1473 >Now Hal6963@aol.com asks: > >>New related question - What color did the PRR paint passenger cars used the >>West Coast Champions operated jointly by the Pennsy and the Atlantic Coast >>Line for service to St Petersburg and Tampa? >> Hal, BB's response pretty well says it all. I can make only a few additional comments, and one correction ;-) The sleepers were PS-built fluted cars in the following series': 10-6 "County" cars 21 roomettes "Island" cars 14-2 "River" cars The name series was established by ACL. The 10-6 smoothside protection cars BB mentions were (of course) "Rapids" series on the PRR. In the heavy winter season ACL leased csars wherever they could find them and you might find anything tucked into the Champions. I regularly run a GN Empire Builder car in mine. Its an ECW kit. GN and NP cars were common as not to much business happened in Montanana in winter and these roads were glad to lease their surplus sleepers to the Flodida folks for Christmas. regards, Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: More on the vintage ads Date: Tue, 25 Nov 97 10:59:26 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1639 I'm still clipping all those vintage ads out of National Geographic. Working on 1949-51 era now. Have over 300 ads already, with another 3-4 copier paper boxes of magazines yet to go! Hate to say it, but there are some nice NYC ads. Found some great PRR ads, though they are few and far between as they didn't seem to advertise much after WWII. There are some great ads from Budd; also from Pullman. There's a tire ad featuring the Pennsylvania Turnpike (former r-o-w of the never-built South Penn RR). All (except the PRR ones) will be sold on eBay starting around the first of the year. I'll alert the list when I start, in case anyone wants to check 'em out. Most will likely go for a buck, though I imagine some will go for much more. Is there enough interest within the list that I should post an index on "Keystone Crossings" and provide a private offering first? (You guys [and gals] are like family, you know!) Would have to set a flat price, first-come first-serve. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: Senator/Congressional From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 97 10:15:05 -0500 Content-Length: 1344 I know its heresy to think about about hear on PRR_TRalk, but north of NY the Senator war pulled by a variety of NH power. How about an EP4 or a set of green PA's? >Hi gang, >I have ordered a set of the announced brass passenger cars by Challenger. >Because of the ellegant investment I would like to find an appropriate head >end. >Does anyone know if the Senator or Congressional were ever pulled by >something other than GG-1's? > Jerry > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: Florida Service Paint Schemes? Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:19:49 -0500 Content-Length: 1330 > In the heavy winter season ACL leased csars wherever they could find > them and you might find anything tucked into the Champions. I > regularly run a GN Empire Builder car in mine. Its an ECW kit. GN and > NP cars were common as not to much business happened in Montanana in > winter and these roads were glad to lease their surplus sleepers to > the Flodida folks for Christmas. _______________________ In the decade just after the WW2, I saw GN, NP, and UP heavyweight cars operating out of Washington DC on Pennsy trains, most always the through trains from Florida, the ones that came in under the first street tunnel and moved through the lower level. Guess it'd be kinda hard for a through train to come through the upper level now, wouldn't it? Andrew Harmantas, watching the action at C&O Milepost FM zero. Nothing moving today. Must be a maintenance window, or something. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:26:59 -0500 From: mxb13@psu.edu (Michael Bezilla) Subject: Re: nothing else like it Content-Length: 799 >If I recall correctly, there was a book published on the PC collapse which >was entitled "No Way To Run A Railroad" I'd recommend this book to all students of the PRR. It is the best study yet of the late PRR years and the factors that led to the PC debacle. By Stephen Salsbury (1981). Unfortunately it's out of print. Many libraries ought to have copies, however. ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:04:26 -0600 From: Bob Webber Subject: RE: Florida Service Paint Schemes? Content-Length: 971 At 10:19 AM 11/25/97 -0500, Harmantas, Andrew G. wrote: >> In the heavy winter season ACL leased csars wherever they could find >> them and you might find anything tucked into the Champions. I >> regularly run a GN Empire Builder car in mine. Its an ECW kit. GN and >> NP cars were common as not to much business happened in Montanana in >> winter and these roads were glad to lease their surplus sleepers to >> the Flodida folks for Christmas. Don't forget that you can run a NP dome sleeper in the Southwind as well....... Bob Webber ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: nothing else like it Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:19:55 -0600 Content-Length: 2614 It was entitled "The wreck of the Penn Central". It was a fascinating book, describing the "Red" team versus the "Green" team mentality, even pointing out (I mention this to give a flavor for attitudes in the U.S.in those days- I hope they have changed at least a little) how Alfred E. Perleman, the top guy from New York, was not allowed to join the Main Line country clubs because of his religion. It also pointed out (and I have seen other evidence to this effect--don't throw me off the list of the faithful) that one of the conflicts was in the relative modernization and (for those days) high degree of computerization of the New York Central versus the Pennsy). Interstingly enough, even though there was a New York versus Philadelphia war going on, I believe the Central, unlike the Pennsy, was heavily influenced by the Chicago offices. We may need to ask a NYC fan if that is true (if we care). Regards to the faithful Bob Zoeller Fox Point, WI ---------- From: Robert A. Boyd Sent: Monday, November 24, 1997 6:52 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: nothing else like it And then, "Phillips, III, J.A." writes: >_____________________ >NOTHING ELSE LIKE IT: >A SHORT NOTE ON THE PENN CENTRAL AND THE LIFE AND TIMES OF PRR'S DAVID >C. BEVAN ====== If I recall correctly, there was a book published on the PC collapse which was entitled "No Way To Run A Railroad" (or perhaps "A Hell Of A Way To Run A Railroad"?). As a case study of the downfall of The Mighty, and of the political and front office shenanigans that can wreak a railroad, this book is fascinating. I recommend it! Bob Boyd Those Classic Trains "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Nov 97 12:08:24 EST From: Subject: N6a cabin cars Content-Length: 1264 I recently purchased an N6a wood craftsman cabin car kit made by Gloorcraft. I have found very little information on this class of cabin car. I even called the manufacturer and they could provide little help. I have a photocopy of a picture from a book titled, "Cabin cars of the Pennsylvania and Long Island Railroad" but do not have access to the book itself. The picture is kinda fuzzy and doesn't show the trucks very well. It looks like the trucks have a coil and eliptical spring???? can anyone confirm if this is correct and if so does any one know how to get a pair in HO scale. Also does anyone have any general info on this class of car? Obviously they were not as popular as the N6b. Was it a one of a kind car? If so was it used primarily in a specific region? Thanks!! Kris Kollar, Hershey, PA ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: N6a cabin cars From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 97 13:17:48 -0500 Content-Length: 1825 >I recently purchased an N6a wood craftsman cabin car kit made by >Gloorcraft. I have found very little information on this class of cabin >car. I even called the manufacturer and they could provide little help. I >have a photocopy of a picture from a book titled, "Cabin cars of the >Pennsylvania and Long Island Railroad" but do not have access to the book >itself. The picture is kinda fuzzy and doesn't show the trucks very well. >It looks like the trucks have a coil and eliptical spring???? can anyone >confirm if this is correct and if so does any one know how to get a pair in >HO scale. Also does anyone have any general info on this class of car? >Obviously they were not as popular as the N6b. Was it a one of a kind car? >If so was it used primarily in a specific region? > >Thanks!! > >Kris Kollar, - --------- Kris, The trucks you descibe are PRR class 2D-F12. They are available from Bowser who made them for the X31 and X32 kits. The idea was to have springs with different spring constants so as to minimize natural oscillations and produce a smoother ride. I believe that the N6a was the lines West version of the same N6b designed for the east. Clearances in the east required the sloped sides of the coupola. The sides of the N6a coupola were vertical. Otherwise I believe the cars were the same. regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: PRR bigotry (was: nothing else like it) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:30:40 EST Content-Length: 1911 > Bob Zoeller > It was entitled "The wreck of the Penn Central". It was a fascinating = > book, describing the "Red" team versus the "Green" team mentality, even = > pointing out (I mention this to give a flavor for attitudes in the = > U.S.in those days- I hope they have changed at least a little) how = > Alfred E. Perleman, the top guy from New York, was not allowed to join = > the Main Line country clubs because of his religion. That is still true today at the Merion Country Club and others. They _may_ have allowed a few Catholics in, _maybe_. But I doubt it. Note that one also did not rise in PRR management unless one was white, had an Anglo-Saxon surname, and was Protestant. _The Wreck_ mentions one guy (Italian I believe, and almost certainly Catholic) who was the highest-ranking non-Protestant in management -- and his rank was about "middle" in middle management. > It also pointed out (and I have seen other evidence to this = > effect--don't throw me off the list of the faithful) that one of the = > conflicts was in the relative modernization and (for those days) high = > degree of computerization of the New York Central versus the Pennsy). = > Interstingly enough, even though there was a New York versus = > Philadelphia war going on, I believe the Central, unlike the Pennsy, = > was heavily influenced by the Chicago offices. We may need to ask a NYC = > fan if that is true (if we care). -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 25 Nov 97 13:53:18 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: nothing else like it Content-Length: 11522 --====55565654555450565355===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" I've read both books, "No Way..." and "The Wreck...". There seem to be two schools of thought about the Central's vaunted computerization of the 60's: Pennsy's computer functions for things such as car tracing were centralized in Philadelphia, Central's were spread out among several regional offices on their system. PRR's system was better for higher-level management reporting and centralized functions, such as accounting; while the Central's seemed to be optimized for customer service -- you call your nearest regional office and they do the trace themselves, vs. deferring to a central location with its probable time-lag, as on Pennsy's system. A lot of it went back to basic management philosophies, and to the customer base each railroad had. Pennsy obviously had much more mineral traffic and large volume customers (steel mills and coal mines). Central was oriented more toward the automobile parts and assembly industry, and higher value traffic. Central's system may have been faster -- I think Central's used CRT readouts, vs. PRR's paper printout system. Each railroad's computer systems were set up with their main traffic bases -- and management and service to those traffic bases -- in mind. Someone shipping a load of Ford parts to Dearborn via NYC might want to know where their car is RIGHT NOW and Central could provide that information. The informational expectations of a mining company shipping a trainload of coal on PRR would probably require less urgency, and PRR's system was suitable for that kind of traffic. "The Wreck..." paints Bevan as the villian in the PC debacle, "No Way..." seems to be much more forgiving of him. Bob Zoeller wrote: >It was entitled "The wreck of the Penn Central". It was a fascinating >book, describing the "Red" team versus the "Green" team mentality, even pointing out >(I mention this to give a flavor for attitudes in the U.S.in those days- I hope >they have changed at least a little) how Alfred E. Perleman, the top guy from New >York, was not allowed to join the Main Line country clubs because of his religion. >It also pointed out (and I have seen other evidence to this effect--don't >throw me off the list of the faithful) that one of the conflicts was in the >relative modernization and (for those days) high degree of computerization of the New >York Central versus the Pennsy). Interstingly enough, even though there was a New >York versus Philadelphia war going on, I believe the Central, unlike the Pennsy, > was heavily influenced by the Chicago offices. We may need to ask a NYC fan if >that is true (if we care). > >Regards to the faithful > >Bob Zoeller >Fox Point, WI > >---------- >From: Robert A. Boyd >Sent: Monday, November 24, 1997 6:52 PM >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: nothing else like it > >And then, "Phillips, III, J.A." writes: > >>_____________________ >>NOTHING ELSE LIKE IT: >>A SHORT NOTE ON THE PENN CENTRAL AND THE LIFE AND TIMES OF PRR'S DAVID >>C. BEVAN > >====== > >If I recall correctly, there was a book published on the PC collapse which >was entitled "No Way To Run A Railroad" (or perhaps "A Hell Of A Way To >Run A Railroad"?). > >As a case study of the downfall of The Mighty, and of the political and >front office shenanigans that can wreak a railroad, this book is >fascinating. I recommend it! > > > >Bob Boyd >Those Classic Trains > >"The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====55565654555450565355===1 >From: >Subject: Re: nothing From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: PRR bigotry (was: nothing else like it) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:10:06 -0500 Content-Length: 1155 ....uh...guys, in case you hadn't noticed, the "bigotry" ascribed to the PRR was not unique, but was long standing corporate practice, in fact, practice throughout most governmental agencies as well. Some/much (depending on your own experience) of these practices continue today, but perhaps not as institutionalized. Would that every place could be as egalitarian as this and other RR lists. > Note that one also did not rise in PRR management unless one was > white, > had an Anglo-Saxon surname, and was Protestant. _The Wreck_ > mentionsone guy (Italian I believe, and almost certainly Catholic) who > was thehighest-ranking non-Protestant in management -- and his rank > was about"middle" in middle management. > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 25 Nov 97 14:20:16 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: Senator/Congressional Content-Length: 4902 --====56505057575453555254===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" These two 'crack' trains on this route would have been pulled by the spanking-new P5's when the wires first went up, until it was determined the P5's weren't up to the task of accelerating the sizes of trains Pennsy was running in the New York Zone, and eventually, beyond. The GG-1's came a while later. If you mean the Senator or Congo with those specific CARS being sold by Challenger (not familiar with them, but I assume they are the fluted stainless steel numbers), it's conceivable a pair of the streamlined P5's could have been used to haul those trains, but rather unlikely. Another GG-1 would have been pulled off a lesser train, if the assigned motor failed for some reason. The lesser train would have gotten the P's. And if you are modeling the era (early 60's) of that one snowstorm where all the G's were eventually disabled due to inhaling fine snowflakes through their air intakes, the Senator or Congressional might have been pulled by anything, that day. ARRJERRY wrote: >Hi gang, >I have ordered a set of the announced brass passenger cars by Challenger. >Because of the ellegant investment I would like to find an appropriate head >end. >Does anyone know if the Senator or Congressional were ever pulled by >something other than GG-1's? > Jerry > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====56505057575453555254===1 From: Mark D Bej Subject: RE: PRR bigotry (was: nothing else like it) (fwd) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:44:11 EST Content-Length: 1051 > ....uh...guys, in case you hadn't noticed, the "bigotry" ascribed to the > PRR was not unique, but was long standing corporate practice, in fact, I think that both the fact that it was not unique, and the fact that it was long-standing, is well known. It just was more entrenched at the PRR than at many institutions. > practice throughout most governmental agencies as well. Some/much > (depending on your own experience) of these practices continue today, > but perhaps not as institutionalized. Would that every place could be > as egalitarian as this and other RR lists. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 17:17:39 -0500 (EST) From: Bnsftulsa@aol.com Content-Length: 1720 e place to sell originals of something, what about selling duplicates of something? For instance, I have lots of passenger train paper items (consists, lineups, special movements, car rosters, etc), that I would like to share with other railfans and at the same time price it to cover my costs to get the stuff reproduced at my local copy center. These are official railroad items not something I have copied down on a piece of paper. If I go to ebay, its an auction and I dont want that. On ebay only one person is a winner but I want everyone who wants one to have what I've got and I want to share what I have at a low cost. The items I have are one of a kind and I dont imagine that anyone else might have what I have, at least not in such a large volume. So, how do I go about spreading the word. If I put a ad on the PRR list as a one time thing, what happens in a month when I want to do it again. What about just mentioning what I have and send me your email address or a sase or something along those lines. Should I try the railroadiana list? I do understand that a list such as this shouldnt become a department store. Thats not what its purpose is. But what should I do? Any suggestions? Dick Brundage Tulsa OK bnsftulsa@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 17:28:06 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: HO: Walthers rerunning SW1 Content-Length: 595 Take a look at http://www.walthers.com/htbin/waltarlist?month=199802&flags=ni Walthers is rerunning the SW1, this time they're doing the PRR "Keystone scheme" -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 18:51:54 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Rivarossi Cars Content-Length: 1740 Hello all... This is mainly for Jerry... A while back i sent you a old Rivarossi PRR observation...i had started to strip the car to be repainted...but stopped...i had used brake fluid to get what i did get off,off... I had used this before to redo a Bachmann car.. Anyway...I have repainted so many cars that i decided to just let you have it. My original intention was to strip it,repaint it and letter it as the Alexander Johnston Cassatt...being a similar car.(i like the man) Hopefully you can do something with it... Now here is a idea...I wanted to change the number on one of my GG-1s.. and didn't really want to repaint it... This is one of the better pemco ones...anyway i carefully used a eraser and rubbed the numbers off...then used Microscales set to renumber it. I then seated the decal and sealed it...looks great and matches what is already there. For my passenger cars i do my own stripes but use Champs Long distance Tender set for the lettering... The dulux gold in those letters are about the right lenth and matches the striping... I have used the Bronze gold but don't like it as much. perhaps some have a even better way to help you...lets see.... good luck with your cars... Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 18:18:21 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Re: selling Content-Length: 994 And Jerry adds: >The few posts that >have been made have largely done so after first asking permission. For >instance, Bob Boyd is starting his new business (Those Classic Trains) >and asked if he could plug the company. I said "no problem". His plug was >for his web address so that people could visit if they were interested, >rather than continually plugging product on the list. ===== Well! It is nice to be lauded as the soul of disgression, for once! Bob Boyd Those Classic Trains "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Selling? Date: Tue, 25 Nov 97 20:48:05 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1200 On 11/25/97 8:47 PM, Harry W. Fitch IV (hfitch@maranatha.net) wrote: >Please don't shoot! > >Is it my imagination, or are a few dupes >showing up again? I have been sick lately >and the medication has taken the edge >off of things a bit, but I thought I received this >message and a few others twice. Will you please share your meds? Yeah, I know, the dupes are back. A half dozen people have told me. Interesting though, they each report dupes of only one message: my message about "selling". Any others? (Though I really don't want to know!) ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 19:21:32 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: more on the Florida trains Content-Length: 1527 And Andy Miller adds: >In the heavy winter season ACL leased csars wherever they could find them and >you might find anything tucked into the Champions. I regularly run a GN >Empire Builder car in mine. Its an ECW kit. GN and NP cars were common as not >to much business happened in Montanana in winter and these roads were glad to >lease their surplus sleepers to the Flodida folks for Christmas. ===== You can also add a UP prewar 4-4-2 (North Beach is one); one of the riveted aluminum jobs off the 39 City Of San Francisco (complete with lettering!) B & O domes and ex- C & O "Chessie" cars were common too; not to mention heavyweights in bilious purple with silver and gold trim as well as silver-shadowstripe schemes. (!) Never a dull moment on the florida trade! BTW: The ACL/SAL SIG published several sets of decals for the Florida trains. These are from Microscale and (of course) are really nice. If I recall correctly, I think some of them have PRR lettering. Bob Boyd Those Classic Trains "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 19:21:40 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Congressional on the NH Content-Length: 1105 Andy also comments: >I know its heresy to think about about hear on PRR_Talk, but north of NY the >Senator was pulled by a variety of NH power. How about an EP4 or a set of >green PA's? ===== Personally, I'd vote for the EP3a 2-C+C-2 box cabs. I believe they were still around in the imediate post war period, and they certainly have more class than the EP5. Thing is, though, you could do the EP5 as a kitbash of some PAs, while the NH technical people informed me some years ago that using a chassis of a GG-1 to bash an EP3a just wouldn't do. C'et le viv Bob Boyd Those Classic Trains "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 19:22:00 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: an invitation to passenger train fanciers Content-Length: 945 Hello all, I am looking at an addition to "The Limited": a series of Free Download text files showing the various consists of various trains (that is to say, the consist history of a given train on each Free Download). If anyone out there is interested in putting in their speak for their favorite road/train, please get ahold of me. Remember: "The Limited" is supposed to be a community effort! Thanks many! Bob Boyd Those Classic Trains "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:02:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Selling? From: carl-vic-vogel@juno.com (Carl K Vogel) Content-Length: 1438 Jerry and Everyone: Yes...I lurk on this list. I never say much, but I do model PRR in G scale and CR in HO. I like having amateurs selling extra stuff to others on this forum. Of course, it has been done, so far, in a low key, considerate manner. It gives me the ability to look for stuff I normally may not know about. I do not have access, yet, to ebay and other web sites. Once it becomes a forum for a constant parade of entrepreneurs...then we should speak out. So far...so good! Thanks, Carl K.Vogel Recently Reinstated Chief Engineer Taunton & Tuckerton Railway O >>What, if there is one, is the policy or feelings on trying to sell >things >>on the talk list? Just a question I was wondering about since I have >>seen a few (and I mean a very few) people trying to sell some models >here >>on the board. > >As listmom, I monitor the situation and make sure it doesn't get out >of >hand. For the most part, I do not want people posting that they have >"x" >fo ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:02:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Selling? From: carl-vic-vogel@juno.com (Carl K Vogel) Content-Length: 1438 Jerry and Everyone: Yes...I lurk on this list. I never say much, but I do model PRR in G scale and CR in HO. I like having amateurs selling extra stuff to others on this forum. Of course, it has been done, so far, in a low key, considerate manner. It gives me the ability to look for stuff I normally may not know about. I do not have access, yet, to ebay and other web sites. Once it becomes a forum for a constant parade of entrepreneurs...then we should speak out. So far...so good! Thanks, Carl K.Vogel Recently Reinstated Chief Engineer Taunton & Tuckerton Railway O >>What, if there is one, is the policy or feelings on trying to sell >things >>on the talk list? Just a question I was wondering about since I have >>seen a few (and I mean a very few) people trying to sell some models >here >>on the board. > >As listmom, I monitor the situation and make sure it doesn't get out >of >hand. For the most part, I do not want people posting that they have >"x" >fo ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:04:47 -0500 From: Jerry Jordak Subject: Re: (no subject) Content-Length: 1356 bnsftulsa@aol.com wrote: > So, how do I go about spreading the word. If I put a ad on the PRR list > as a one time thing, what happens in a month when I want to do it again. > What about just mentioning what I have and send me your email address or a > sase or something along those lines. Try scanning the items and sending them to Jerry and let him post it on Keystone Crossings. Then everyone can get to it whenever they want. I've done that with maps and drawings on my Penn Central web site, and it works out pretty well. Now Jerry's probably going to throw a brick at me for giving him more work to do..... :-) Later, -Jer -- Jerry W. Jordak The boxcars and flatbeds, whistle blowin' steam mailto:jer@smellycat.com That was yesterday http://prozac.cwru.edu/jer/ Now those big trains don't come anymore Acts 16:31 <>< -- Restless Heart, "Big Iron Horses" ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:08:08 EST Subject: Re: Train Routing out of NYP question. (fwd) Content-Length: 831 In a message dated 97-11-24 05:03:09 EST, you write: >How much disruption was there when the tunnel >connecting to the west side branch was dug? Very little, as I recall. But most of that work was being done in "new" areas, i.e. where no current trackage existed. Probably brief out-of-service times while the lines were actually being connected to the station trackage. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:08:12 EST Subject: Re: 4 track main Content-Length: 1389 In a message dated 97-11-24 07:47:06 EST, BBReynolds@aol.com writes: >Likewise, in Philadelphia, six tracks from below Arsenal to above Brill. > Now here is a prime example of three two-track lines on the same right-of-way, appearing to be a six-track main. We've already had several of these presented to us by the "Enola-and-west" folks. In this case, the westernmost two tracks were the Suburban Line (currently SEPTA), the middle two were the River Line(currently Amtrak), and the easternmost two were the HIgh Line(currently Conrail). Each was listed separately in the employee timetable. I don't offhand recall if any mileposts can be seen in this area, but if so, they only apply to the two tracks nearest them. When "Phil" interlocking replaced Brill, and the SEPTA airport line opened, some shuffling around was done in this area. I think there might be only five tracks now, with the single one belonging to Conrail. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:08:25 EST Subject: Re: Senator/Congressional Content-Length: 854 In a message dated 97-11-25 09:50:44 EST, ARRJERRY@aol.com writes: >Does anyone know if the Senator or Congressional were ever pulled by >something other than GG-1's? Not on an assigned regular basis (unless, of course, you consider New Haven power on the Senator!). Actually, I don't think PRR had any electric motors other than the GG-1's which could have maintained the schedules of these two trains. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:21:27 -0800 From: Eugene Deimling Subject: N-6b or a trucks Content-Length: 558 I have noticed that N-6b cabooses have a single coil truck like the N-5c. Is this common/ What other styles ere used? GENE P:48 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: Congressional on the NH From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 97 08:49:59 -0500 Content-Length: 2594 Bob, I too have in mind an EP3 kitbash someday, with the intent of using a Rivarossi GG-1 mechanism. I believe the primary difference is that the NH loco had friction bearings while the GG-1 (of course) had roller bearings. Since the side frames for both the lead trucks and the main frame are made of stryrene, the journals can be carved off and replaced with the outer portions of brass roller bearing journals available from several sources (Prec Scale, CalScale, etc). I mentioned the EP4 because I own one. It was done in brass by Alco several years ago.. The EP3 has not been done since MEW did a brass one in the early 60s. As I recall it sold for $49.95 siiiiiigh! A NH friend of mine bought one used a year ago for around $300. If retooled and reissued today it undoubtedly would be over $1000. And now back to our regular PRR program. regards Andy Miller BTW The closer match for the EP5 nose for a kitbash would probably be the Rivarossi FM C-liner, not the PA. - ---------- >Andy also comments: > >>I know its heresy to think about about hear on PRR_Talk, but north of NY the >>Senator was pulled by a variety of NH power. How about an EP4 or a set of >>green PA's? > >===== > >Personally, I'd vote for the EP3a 2-C+C-2 box cabs. I believe they were >still around in the imediate post war period, and they certainly have more >class than the EP5. Thing is, though, you could do the EP5 as a kitbash >of some PAs, while the NH technical people informed me some years ago that >using a chassis of a GG-1 to bash an EP3a just wouldn't do. > >C'et le viv > > >Bob Boyd >Those Classic Trains > >"The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:55:31 -0500 From: mxb13@psu.edu (Michael Bezilla) Subject: RE: nothing else like it Content-Length: 795 >It was entitled "The wreck of the Penn Central". This is an interesting and well written book. However, it lacks perspective, having been written in 1970-71, nor did the authors have access to a lot of information that became available later. Thus it should be used with much caution, especially when using it to make judgements about PC's cast of characters.-m ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Senator/Congressional Date: Wed, 26 Nov 97 10:19:36 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1097 I did go back and check last month's MR ad that had the "beautiful" FoM cars. It was Challenger, but the caption reads "Senator" and "Congressional" consists. One car from each consist is shown in the ad. One looks like a typical post-war paint job, buy the other looks like the Leowy "Fleet of Modernism" scheme. There were originally three Leowy consists, but I know it was expanded. Was one of these consists painted in the Leowy theme at one point? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:33:11 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Congressional on the NH Content-Length: 1758 Andrew S. Miller wrote: > > Bob, > I too have in mind an EP3 kitbash someday, with the intent of using a > Rivarossi GG-1 mechanism. I believe the primary difference is that the NH > loco had friction bearings while the GG-1 (of course) had roller bearings. > Since the side frames for both the lead trucks and the main frame are made of > stryrene, the journals can be carved off and replaced with the outer portions > of brass roller bearing journals available from several sources (Prec Scale, > CalScale, etc). > While you are making the conversion, remove the lead truck brake cylinders and any brake rigging. The EP-3 lead trucks had no brakes; at least, none show on the G. E. erection drawings or any other drawings I have seen. The EP-4 had lead truck brakes, as shown in one of the Locomotive Cyclopedias. > > > >Personally, I'd vote for the EP3a 2-C+C-2 box cabs. I believe they were > >still around in the imediate post war period,..... The first EP-3 to be scrapped was 0351, in 1959, and the last to run was 0358, in 1961, according to Al Staufer in _New Haven Power_, page 352. > >.....and they certainly have more class than the EP5. More character and raw, functionsl beauty, I'll agree, but the Overland EP-5 in O scale shows a heck of a lot of class. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:56:13 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Senator/Congressional Content-Length: 1322 Doug Drew wrote: > > These two 'crack' trains on this route would have been pulled by the > spanking-new P5's when the wires first went up, until it was > determined the P5's weren't up to the task of accelerating the sizes > of trains Pennsy was running in the New York Zone, and eventually, > beyond. The GG-1's came a while later. > The most serious problem the P-5a's experienced was cracking of the axles, which were found to be undersized for the stress of transmitting drive torque from the quill wheel to the opposite side. They were pulled from service quickly and gradually rebuilt with heavier axles. Steam helped fill the interim gap. As the GG-1 came along so soon after, the need for the P5-a to handle the top trains was no longer a top priority. As you stated, the immense capabilities of the G's rendered the P's unnecessary for that service. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: Senator/Congressional Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:25:48 -0600 Content-Length: 2553 Don't have it in front of me but the ad photo was of past Challenger issues, including the 1938 Broadway shown. The copy referred to future releases, the Senator and Congressional, which presumably will be in the stainless steel. The PRRT&HS painting guidebook lists a considerable number of the cars besides complete consists which were FOM-painted. BTW, the Challenger 38 Broadway was the one I referred to a few months ago when I said that even they had troubles with pinstriping -- theirs is larger than scale--a couple of SPF brass collectors I know complained to them about it, but I think it was a reasonable compromise -frankly, at any distance , the 3/8" bronze gold in absolute HO scale virtually disappears to these weak eyes. Can anyone confirm or deny one of my previous questions: was the 1940 "tuscan-painted stainless steel" South Wind in the FOM scheme, or some other? ---------- From: Jerry Britton Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 1997 8:19 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: Senator/Congressional I did go back and check last month's MR ad that had the "beautiful" FoM cars. It was Challenger, but the caption reads "Senator" and "Congressional" consists. One car from each consist is shown in the ad. One looks like a typical post-war paint job, buy the other looks like the Leowy "Fleet of Modernism" scheme. There were originally three Leowy consists, but I know it was expanded. Was one of these consists painted in the Leowy theme at one point? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: Senator/Congressional From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 97 12:36:29 -0500 Content-Length: 786 Jerry B asked: >Can anyone confirm or deny one of my previous questions: was the 1940 "tuscan-painted stainless steel" South Wind in the FOM scheme, or some other? > - ----- I don't know if it was the Southwind car, but I have seen a foto of a Budd fluted diner painted FOM. Yeach! A clear case of two rights making a wrong ;-) regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don R. Millbranth" Subject: Mile Post 414.5 Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:15:48 -0600 Content-Length: 483 Happy Thanksgiving Day to one and all...................... ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249 Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:55:58 EST Subject: Re: Power for the Senator/Congressional Content-Length: 481 What about the single Class R-1 4-8-4 electric ? Dick Ross ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Champ Decals Date: Wed, 26 Nov 97 15:41:43 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1504 (I'm posting this before leaving work for the holidays, so please respond to the list or to my home address "jerry@dsop.com". Thanks.) I'm getting ready to order a bunch of Champ decals for various projects. I need some clarification on some colors. I am modeling some late 40s early 50s passenger cars. The list "gold bronze" and "dulux gold". Are these equivalent to "gold leaf" and "buff" respectively? When did the changeover occur, that is, which is right for 1948-1952? For my Baldwin Sharks...there is a five stripe "hood" set from Champ, but it doesn't mention the Sharks. Is this set appropriate? (Another decal vendor offers a set specific to the Sharks and I don't know why.) For my F7's painted for freight service, same era...do I want five stripe, single narrow stripe, or single wide stripe? Thanks...and have a great Turkey Day! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:52:05 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: RE: nothing else like it Content-Length: 950 Greetings to the group, One of the more interesting "enlightenments" I got out of the "...Wreck..." and the "No Way..." books had nothing to do with the NYC, PRR or PC but rather with Arlen Spector, one of PA's present senators. After reading about his involvement (May I use the term grandstanding?) with the PC aftermath and other high profile cases, it makes me wonder what really motivates him. Is it what's best for Pennsylvania or how he looks on the 6 O'Clock Action News? Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:09:09 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: RE: nothing else like it Content-Length: 728 Is it what's best for Pennsylvania or how he looks on the 6 >O'Clock Action News? > >Drew R. McGhee >Altoona, PA > > Greetings, Without a doubt, it is the latter. Happy Thanksgiving!!!!! ------------------------------------------------------------- Sincerely, S.A. McCALL hosam ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: Champ Decals From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 97 16:13:34 -0500 Content-Length: 1782 jerry B asked: >I'm getting ready to order a bunch of Champ decals for various projects. >I need some clarification on some colors. > >I am modeling some late 40s early 50s passenger cars. The list "gold >bronze" and "dulux gold". Are these equivalent to "gold leaf" and "buff" >respectively? When did the changeover occur, that is, which is right for >1948-1952? > Yes, those are the colors. The change over occured around 1953 so for 48-52 you want "bronze gold". >For my Baldwin Sharks...there is a five stripe "hood" set from Champ, but >it doesn't mention the Sharks. Is this set appropriate? (Another decal >vendor offers a set specific to the Sharks and I don't know why.) > The 5 stripe sharks had a unique feature. There was a keystone in a circle interupting the 5 stripes just aft of the cab door. Therfore a generic PRR 5 stripe set won't do unless it has that gold circle with the keystone. >For my F7's painted for freight service, same era...do I want five >stripe, single narrow stripe, or single wide stripe? Single narrow stripe. Only the sharks were ever painted 5 stripe DGLE. A small number of FP7's were painted 5 stripe tuscan! The wide stripe did not appear until late 50's early 60's. > >Thanks...and have a great Turkey Day! > You're welcome and eat the bird! Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 17:46:17 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: RE: Champ Decals Content-Length: 1097 At 04:13 PM 11/26/97 -0500, you wrote: >jerry B asked: >>For my Baldwin Sharks...there is a five stripe "hood" set from Champ, but >>it doesn't mention the Sharks. Is this set appropriate? (Another decal >>vendor offers a set specific to the Sharks and I don't know why.) >> >The 5 stripe sharks had a unique feature. There was a keystone in a circle >interupting the 5 stripes just aft of the cab door. Therfore a generic PRR 5 >stripe set won't do unless it has that gold circle with the keystone. Recommend using Microscale # 87-67 for the single stripes and #87-677 for the five stripe with the keystone circle. Sincerely, S.A. McCALL hosam ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 19:04:51 -0500 (EST) From: Hal6963@aol.com Subject: Re: more on the Florida trains Content-Length: 1317 According to a 1938 ACL Timetable the East Coast Champion originated in Boston and traveled to NYC on the NYNH&H, then to Washington on the PRR powered by a GG1 I assume, from Washington to Richmond on the RF&P, and from Richmond to Miami via the ACL and the FEC via Jacksonville. The Trains were diesel powered south of Richmond. The timetable lists the makeup by car type for the entire train. It also lists a streamlined coach section and a Pullman coach section. Southbound PRR train 105. Northbound PRR train 104. The West Coast Champion (PRR No. 127 split into 2 sections in Jacksonville, 1 through Orlando to Tampa and the other through Gainesville (where I live) to St Petersburg. Perhaps the Pullmans and coachs on the West Coast Champions were not streamlined, but rather heavyweights (only the East Coast Champion was listed as streamlined in the schedule) Harold ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 19:14:29 -0500 (EST) From: Hal6963@aol.com Subject: Re: Congressional on the NH Content-Length: 522 I wonder if the EPs were used to pull the Florida Trains from Boston to NYC? probably so. Harold ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 19:22:46 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Subject: Re: Rivarossi Passenger Cars Content-Length: 2428 At 08:42 AM 11/25/97 -0400, Jerry Britton wrote: >These are trained professionals; do not try this at home... Too late! >I just picked up via an eBay auction a pair of Rivarossi passenger cars >in Pennsy paint. One is the "Mountain View" (Class POS21), the other the >"Morrow Brook" (Class PS125). > >Has anyone ever attempted to refinish JUST THE NAME AREA on one of these >cars? If so, how did you do it? What paint did you use? What decals for >the new name? Note: my experience is with the N scale Rivarossi cars, but they look like they used the same paints and such. I chucked a soft-eraser pencil stub into my electric screwdriver and gently rubbed the lettering away. Don't bear down very hard. On the first car, I used Accuflex Pennsy Maroon (*they* named it that) for touch-up. On the second car, there was no marring of the underlying paint. Microscale produces decal sheets with nothing but lightweight car names; there aren't enough instances of the class names, but what can you do? The sheet number is 893 (87-893 for HO, 60-893 for N). The lettering doesn't match the Riva lettering; Andy Miller tells me that this is a Good Thing, but it also means that you have to replace the class name (RAPIDS, CREEK, BROOK, etc) when you alter the name. The decal is also more opaque than the factory lettering. There is also a heavyweight name sheet (894) and a general PRR passenger set (891); this last has PENNSYLVANIA, numbers, PULLMAN, keystones in two sizes with white or gold PRR, numbers, REA, Post Office, a Broadway tailsign (the newer one with just the letters), PARLOR, and half a page of (random?) car names. Note that the only other name correct for Mountain View is Tower View, assuming that the car has the correct window arrangement. The other square end observations (Samuel Rea, Alexander Johnson Cassatt, etc) had different room layouts (no master bedroom) and so different windows. Good luck! Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Leary" Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 01:41:22 +0000 Subject: Want silver and/or tuscan Key Imports GG-1 Content-Length: 2447 To everyone, I hope the following question isn't offensive and/or out of place in this forum; so here goes: I want to purchase a Key Imports GG-1 in silver (not Amtrack) and a Key Imports GG-1 in tuscan, single stripe. If anyone has either for sale (or know where I can obtain one), please email me as: greglear@bellsouth.net I figured it was reasonable to post this email after reading the one below. Thanks! Sincerely, Greg Leary (electronically signed) > Jerry and Everyone: > > Yes...I lurk on this list. I never say much, but I do model PRR in G > scale and CR in HO. > > I like having amateurs selling extra stuff to others on this forum. Of > course, it has been done, so far, in a low key, considerate manner. > > It gives me the ability to look for stuff I normally may not know about. > I do not have access, yet, to ebay and other web sites. > > Once it becomes a forum for a constant parade of entrepreneurs...then we > should speak out. > > So far...so good! > > Thanks, > > Carl K.Vogel > Recently Reinstated Chief Engineer > Taunton & Tuckerton Railway > > O > >>What, if there is one, is the policy or feelings on trying to sell > >things > >>on the talk list? Just a question I was wondering about since I have > >>seen a few (and I mean a very few) people trying to sell some models > >here > >>on the board. > > > >As listmom, I monitor the situation and make sure it doesn't get out > >of > >hand. For the most part, I do not want people posting that they have > >"x" > >fo > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a > cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 19:43:38 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: RE: Senator/Congressional Content-Length: 1183 And Bob Zoeller asks: >Can anyone confirm or deny one of my previous questions: was the 1940 >>"tuscan-painted stainless steel" South Wind in the FOM scheme, or some >other? ===== Quick spin of the office chair, lunge for Kratville: OK: Steam, Steel & Limiteds, p 127 shows a small photo of the South Wind behind L & N power: it looks like an all tuscan scheme: no two tone window panel as on the FOM cars. There is also a caption noting: "In 1940 came the tuscan painted, Budd built South Wind - -" So it appears the answer is "No". Evidently the South Wind cars were in the tuscan pool scheme, even if regularly assigned. All my best, Bob Boyd Those Classic Trains "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Photo Page Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 22:42:53 -0500 Content-Length: 715 Some may want to check out Rick's Train Pictures page for some PRR and PC images. There are loads of them and other stuff as well. No endorsement, just passing along a URL. http://www.trainpage.com/Rick'sTrainPictures.html Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: PRR/PC villains Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 23:27:38 EST Content-Length: 3189 've been thinking about the discussion here about various so-called villains. I read _The Wreck_ twice, once quite a while ago, once recently when I acquired a copy of the book. I saw _No Way_ once, briefly -- it looked terribly dry. I did not come away with the impression that Bevan was being villainized in and of himself. Sure, he was one of the cronies who invested as a club, lent to themselves, sat on each others' boards. My take (some tincture of time has been added) is that the villains were the directors and the board. The former for their lack of interpersonal cooperation and relative inactivity until things began to go bad; the latter for their total inactivity until things got terrible. To be perfectly honest, I think Bevan should be commended for keeping the sinking ship afloat as long as he did. Remember that PRR was losing money, N&W making money in 1964. PRR diversifications were by and large making money, PRR proper still losing money in 1968. For how many years (decades?) can a company remain afloat while hemorrhaging? I'm still curious about those loans that were to come due just before the bankruptcy declaration. Were these the bonds issued at the time of WW II? ANyone know for sure? Finally, I think one villain gets scant mention in the book. That, IMHO, is Symes. Symes probably would have been a lackluster, interregnum type of president had economic (_railroad_ economic, that is) conditions been better. As it is, he presided over the beginning of the end of the PRR, which started losing money in 1946 or 7, as I recall. It was he and his staff who failed to grasp the scope of the post-war problem, the totally changed marketplace. It was he who had Penn Station destroyed (rather than, e.g., donating it to the city). It was he who wanted to dump a profitable railroad (N&W) for a marginally profitable one (NYC), just to accomplish a vision. It was he who hired Saunders and installed him to complete this vision. Symes, IMHO, is like the President who raises taxes and stalls the economy, then ends his 2nd term. Saunders et al are hardly blameless but are in the unenviable position of being the 1st-term President during whose term occurs a recession started by the policies of the previous President. -- Mark D. Bej, M.D. bejm@eeg.ccf.org Clinical Associate, Section of Epilepsy & Sleep Disorders Epilepsy Research Fellow, Section of Neurological Computing Department of Neurology Phone (216) 445-2565 Cleveland Clinic Foundation S-51 Operator (216) 444-2200 bpr 24095 9500 Euclid Ave. Fax (216) 445-6617 (public) Cleveland, Ohio 44195 U.S.A. Voice mail (216) 444-0119 (nonclinical only) ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Attention: URL does not pick-up complete Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 23:38:42 -0500 Content-Length: 930 Attention: If you had difficulty hooking up to the URL that I posted on Rick's Train Picture page. Please copy the address below and search for it on Webcrawler, this does the trick. For some reason the URL does not pick-up complete in my e-mail for this site. http://www.trainpage.com/Rick'sTrainPictures.html "Welcome To My Train Picture Collection There are now over 9,000 pictures at this site." Sorry for any inconvenience. Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 23:15:45 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Congressional on the NH Content-Length: 1708 >I wonder if the EPs were used to pull the Florida Trains from Boston to NYC? >probably so. > >Harold ===== Doubtlessly! New Haven had the following electric passenger power: EP-2 1-C-1 + 1-C-1 27 units 0300 - 0326 West'hse 1918-27 ret 1959 3120 hp EP-3 2-C + C-2 10 units 0351 - 0360* GE Erie 1931 ret 1952# 3440 hp EP-4 (I have no further data on these) EP-5 C-C (?) 10 units (?) (these are the double cab units made in S scale by American Flyer) * renumbered 0350-0359 # an earlier post stated the retirement dates as 1959-61: this date is off an erection diagram. NH also had the DL-109s which were used in passenger service by day and manifest freight by night. However, I suspect they were not used on the premiere trains because, according to a Trains (?) article, the Santa Fe DL-109s proved inadequate for heavy loads. At 3000+ hp (plus overload capacity) the electrics would have walked away from the DL-109s nominal 2000 hp/effective 1500 ? hp. Mind you: I would be interested to see how the paired Centipedes would have fared in a short haul environment like the New Haven! Bob Boyd Those Classic Trains "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 23:16:19 -0600 (CST) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Power for the Senator/Congressional Content-Length: 741 >What about the single Class R-1 4-8-4 electric ? (on the Congressionals) >Dick Ross ===== I have a photo of the R-1 in what vaguely looks like Manhattan Transfer, which suggests it was used on the Chicago run. Bob Boyd Those Classic Trains "The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 00:30:23 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Subject: Re: PRR/PC villains Content-Length: 757 At 11:27 PM 11/26/97 EST, Mark D Bej wrote: >I'm still curious about those loans that were to come due just before the >bankruptcy declaration. Were these the bonds issued at the time of WW II? >ANyone know for sure? I believe that the last mention this got on this list was that it was the bonds for dieselization. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 10:01:40 -0500 (EST) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: Florida Service Paint Schemes? Content-Length: 1409 In a message dated 97-11-26 21:43:12 EST, Hal6963@aol.com writes: << New related question - What color did the PRR paint passenger cars used the West Coast Champions operated jointly by the Pennsy and the Atlantic Coast Line for service to St Petersburg and Tampa? >> The following cars were used interchangably on the East Coast Champion, West Coast Champion and Florida Special: Chester County, Baltimore County, Bucks County, Deleware County, Union county, Hudson County all class PS106 and on the Florida Special only Anacostia River class PS214 coaches 4043 and 4044 class P85fR were assigned to the East and West Coast Champion, All were all stainless steel clad bodies with black roof and trucks, royal purple lettering and name boards with aluminium lettering. In mid 1952 the lettering was changed to silver-gray. By 1959 the letter and name board color was stripped and black letteres applied directly to the stainless steel. Rich Orr All were ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 10:10:00 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Congressional on the NH Content-Length: 4010 Robert A. Boyd wrote: > > Doubtlessly! New Haven had the following electric passenger power: > > EP-2 1-C-1 + 1-C-1 27 units 0300 - 0326 West'hse 1918-27 ret 1959 3120 hp > EP-3 2-C + C-2 10 units 0351 - 0360* GE Erie 1931 ret 1952# 3440 hp > EP-4 (I have no further data on these) > EP-5 C-C (?) 10 units (?) (these are the double cab units made in > S scale by American Flyer) > > * renumbered 0350-0359 > # an earlier post stated the retirement dates as 1959-61: this date is off > an erection diagram. ----------------------------------------- I would like to add some more information on NH power which may have handled through NH-PRR trains, generally taken from Staufer and Swanberg's _New Haven Power_: The EP-1, 1-B-B-1 (not articulated), numbers 01 to 041, was built beginning in 1905. While the first to be condemned were in 1936, the class lasted in main line service until 1947, post - WWII. The EP-4 streamlined motors, numbered 0361 - 0366 were 2-C+C-2 like the EP-3's, running until 1961. The EF-3 motors, 073-011, similar in appearance to the EP-4's except AC only and heavier and more powerful, were capable of operating into Penn Station and used steam heat trailers for train heat. Five units, 0150 - 0154 were equipped with steam heat boilers for passenger service in 1944. EP-2 units 312 and 322 , and EP-3'3 355 and 358, received the McGinnis red, white, and black colors, dating them well into the 1950's. The ten EP-5's were numbered 370-379. > > NH also had the DL-109s which were used in passenger service by day and > manifest freight by night. However, I suspect they were not used on the > premiere trains because, according to a Trains (?) article, the Santa Fe > DL-109s proved inadequate for heavy loads. At 3000+ hp (plus overload > capacity) the electrics would have walked away from the DL-109s nominal > 2000 hp/effective 1500 ? hp. > The Swanberg/Staufer reference indicates the DL-109's pulled any and all of the NH liners as needed. They were the prime source of road power after the I-5 Hudson types, until the advent of the PA diesels in 1948. Staufer does say, though, that the I-5 locomotives were better able to handle the _Merchants Limited_ and were regularly assigned to that train until removed from regular sevice in 1949. Significant overload capacity is a given with electric motive power since, not only can the locomotive be overloaded electrically, but the fixed-plant power and distribution system can usually supply significant overload capacity. While a diesel-electric locomotive's electrical system can be overloaded, and has a stated overload time vs. current rating, the diesel engine cannot be overloaded. With any demand placed on the diesel engine speed governor for power in excess of the rated fuel input to the engine, the governor will begin to unload the generator rather than try to over-feed the engine. There are stories of the EP-5's braking for speed restrictions at locations where the FL-9 diesels would be still in run 8 trying to get the same train up to speed. > Mind you: I would be interested to see how the paired Centipedes would have > fared in a short haul environment like the New Haven! They would have needed speed, and quickly. How would they have handled that? I don't have any data on them. Anyway, that's my 4 cents' worth on a sunny Thanksgiving morning on breezy Cape Cod. Have a happy holiday. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 10:15:31 -0500 (EST) From: VVA249@aol.com Subject: SILVER RAPIDS Content-Length: 976 I have long been a fan of this particular car (previous postings) - Built for the California Zephyr (lettered for the California Zephyr - with PRR in small letters near the doors) it cleverly fit the "Rapids" series by interior arraingement ONLY and also fit the Zephyr's "Silver" 10-6 series of bodies of water (Silver Lake, Silver Steam etc) This car still exists - in the hands of private collector on the West Coast - I last saw it as it was undergoing renovations and upgrade to HEP in New London Ohio about 6-8 years ago Dick Ross ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 10:16:02 -0500 (EST) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: ads Content-Length: 911 In a message dated 97-11-27 02:01:43 EST, you write: << PRR-Talk@dsop.com >> I toss this out for consideration. Another list to which I subscribe designates a particular day of the week when ads may be posted. They also require the subject to contain "sale", "ad" and one or two other words so these messages can be filtered out if unwanted. This could be further limited by restricting the week, e.g. Tuesdays of the third week of each month. Just a thought. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 17:12:00 -0500 From: mxb13@psu.edu (Mike Bezilla) Subject: Re: PRR/PC villains Content-Length: 668 > I saw _No Way_ once, briefly -- it looked >terribly dry. It is not dry at all -- in my opinion, anyway. Some good character studies and Salsbury makes some terribly complex financial stuff fairly coherent for the average reader. Mike ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Have the N scalers among us heard? From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 97 08:49:42 -0500 Content-Length: 646 Dennis, I was thinking of you when I read the other day that Red Caboose is entering the N scale market. Their first offering is to be their X29 ! :-)) This news was from Model Railroad News. regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Congressional on the NH From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 97 09:38:50 -0500 Content-Length: 1292 . . . >NH also had the DL-109s which were used in passenger service by day and >manifest freight by night. However, I suspect they were not used on the >premiere trains because, according to a Trains (?) article, the Santa Fe >DL-109s proved inadequate for heavy loads. At 3000+ hp (plus overload >capacity) the electrics would have walked away from the DL-109s nominal >2000 hp/effective 1500 ? hp. > >Mind you: I would be interested to see how the paired Centipedes would have >fared in a short haul environment like the New Haven! > >Bob Boyd - ----- Bob, The NH, like the PRR was electrified only on part. Like the PRR, the part near New York. Thus electrics would HAVE to haul the through trains out of Penn Station, while diesels, such as the DL109s and the PA's, would haul the train east of New Haven. regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 10:56:09 -0500 (EST) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: N6a cabin cars Content-Length: 2619 In a message dated 97-11-28 04:16:25 EST, asmiller@mail11.mitre.org writes: << >I recently purchased an N6a wood craftsman cabin car kit made by >Gloorcraft. I have found very little information on this class of cabin >car. I even called the manufacturer and they could provide little help. I >have a photocopy of a picture from a book titled, "Cabin cars of the >Pennsylvania and Long Island Railroad" but do not have access to the book >itself. The picture is kinda fuzzy and doesn't show the trucks very well. >It looks like the trucks have a coil and eliptical spring???? can anyone >confirm if this is correct and if so does any one know how to get a pair in >HO scale. Also does anyone have any general info on this class of car? >Obviously they were not as popular as the N6b. Was it a one of a kind car? >If so was it used primarily in a specific region? > >Thanks!! > >Kris Kollar, - --------- Kris, The trucks you descibe are PRR class 2D-F12. They are available from Bowser who made them for the X31 and X32 kits. The idea was to have springs with different spring constants so as to minimize natural oscillations and produce a smoother ride. I believe that the N6a was the lines West version of the same N6b designed for the east. Clearances in the east required the sloped sides of the coupola. The sides of the N6a coupola were vertical. Otherwise I believe the cars were the same. regards Andy Miller >> Close inspection of the N6a photo will reveal that this car is riding on the same trucks as those on the N6b 982086 pg 27 of Cabins Cars of the PRR & LI. These are spring plank trucks (no coil). I do not know the PRR class. To the best of my knowledge they are not available from anyone. Railworks used this class of truck on their brass NDa. You may want to contact them about availability of the trucks. The N6a also rode on the single coil cabin car truck produce by Bowser for the N5 and N5c. The original trucks on the N6a and N6b were replaced with the coil truck. If you are modeling anything newer than WWII you can use this truck. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 11:55:34 -0500 From: hrholtz@blazenet.net (Harold R. Holtzinger) Subject: Re: Trainphone Content-Length: 1510 Correct me if I am wrong, but if I understand the question right, the engine that is at the top of the page at: "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ is the one and only S-1 6-4-4-6 #6100. >From: Jerry >Date: Tue, 25 Nov 97 06:53:09 -0400 > >On 11/24/97 10:42 PM, Hank Mummert (bubbles@visi.net) wrote: > >> I was looking at the picture that Jerry is using for PRR talk at Keystone >> Crossings and wondered what class of engine it might be.... >> I looked through my books and it seems to be one of the four later >> streamlined K-4s engines...they are the only engines that have a cab like >> in the picture...Hmmm am i right? > >Probably. The portion I used is the entire portion of the original ad >from National Geographic. The ad ran in the early 40s. Would be a >streamlined K4 or perhaps a T1. > >----------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton >"Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ >Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! >----------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dan Cupper" Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 13:13:33 +0000 Subject: Looking for an HO-scale PRR interlocking tower model Content-Length: 1325 Greetings to the list! For a museum client that is building an HO scale model railroad, I'm seeking help from list members who are model railroaders. Since the planned model railroad portrays a typical PRR four-track Middle Division mainline scene, the museum wishes to have a PRR interlocking tower alongside the tracks. We're aware that a (Quality Craft?) kit that represented "Jacks" tower was offered at one time, but that's been some years ago and if it's still available, it's certainly not plentiful. The museum is looking for either: -- a lead on availability of that kit somewhere. -- a lead on availability of any other PRR interlocking tower kit. -- or would be willing to consider purchasing the kit or built-up model of this or another PRR tower directly from anyone who's willing to sell. Thanks for any help you can provide. Dan Cupper -- cupper@ibm.net ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 08:49:18 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Trainphone pic Content-Length: 789 Hello all... Here we go again...ok i see where someone posted that the engine was S-1 no 6100...well i just looked in Pennsy Power and the S-1 window is rounded towards the firebox....The trainphone engines window is kinda square. I still think it is one of the 1940 K-4s engines...even the stripes match! H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Penn Line K4s Kit Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 11:19:17 -0500 Content-Length: 1875 To the list members: This is an e-mail to announce an item of interest to the list that I want to sell. Jerry Britton was contacted before I posted this so that the ethics of the post have been blessed by the list administrator. For those not knowledgeable about Penn Line, they are the company that produced most of what Bowser now offers in HO in the way of PRR metal model kits. Bowser bought the Penn Line equipment but not the trade name "Penn Line" (that went to another company that never used it) What I have here is a vintage unbuilt (app. circa 1951) Penn Line kit still in it's box from Penn Line for a K4s. In those days they gave you a decal for the keystone! The castings are sharper than newer offerings because the dies were new. The rivet tool, instruction book and all are in the original red and white Penn Line of Boyertown, PA box. The original selling price in that year was $34.50. (A little steep by early 1950's pocket books) I hate to alter the thing by building it (someone else can do it, I haven't the heart) because in some folks eyes it is a collectors piece just as it is. A little piece of time in a box as to how they used to do it in HO in the pioneering days. The price on the item is $75.00 FIRM plus $5.00 for S&H Please send any inquries to: Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 Thank You, (for your patience with this post) ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 13:13:00 -0500 (EST) From: Jpk815@aol.com Subject: Re: Have the N scalers among us heard? Content-Length: 836 Yes... there is an ad with a proto photo in the November-December N-Scale mag on p.77, They will be available in shadow keystone, merchandise service, "buy war bonds" theme and... for all you passenger train fans... Railway Express! Can't wait! JP, Alexandria, VA ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 14:34:04 -0500 From: Mark Subject: Pitcairn (Wall) Yard info Content-Length: 1227 Hi, I'm interested in modeling a part of the Pitcairn/Wall yards (pre '50) in N scale. Although my family and I grew up in the area, we all seem to have different memories (and few details) about it. I plan to take a trip to the area again to get some refresher photo's of the town, but I hear the yard is being revitalized and I'm assuming even more of it's past has been lost (it was pretty much dead in the late 60's). Although the history of the yard (as my grandfather told it) was great, it seems the old Pitcairn yard was overshadowed in history by Altoona and East Pittsburgh. If anyone could help out by pointing me to photo's, books, track plans, personal knowledge, or anything interesting, it would be extremely helpful. Mark Melbourne, FL (via Monroeville, PA) ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 11:40:02 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: Re: Have the N scalers among us heard? Content-Length: 953 Andrew S. Miller wrote: > Dennis, > I was thinking of you when I read the other day that Red Caboose is > entering > the N scale market. Their first offering is to be their X29 ! :-)) > This news > was from Model Railroad News. > > regards > Andy Miller Hello Andy, I am also an N'thusiast. I haven't heard about these new cars. What era are they? What are the dimensions and features? Thanks Roger Elliott relliott.telis@mail.telis.org PS Anyone know if they ever made a model in N of the T-1 Duplex? ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 18:08:26 -0800 From: Sharon Subject: Re: N6a cabin cars Content-Length: 2700 > In a message dated 97-11-28 04:16:25 EST, asmiller@mail11.mitre.org writes: > > << > >I recently purchased an N6a wood craftsman cabin car kit made by > >Gloorcraft. I have found very little information on this class of cabin > >car. I even called the manufacturer and they could provide little help. I > >have a photocopy of a picture from a book titled, "Cabin cars of the > >Pennsylvania and Long Island Railroad" but do not have access to the book > >itself. The picture is kinda fuzzy and doesn't show the trucks very well. > > >It looks like the trucks have a coil and eliptical spring???? can anyone > >confirm if this is correct and if so does any one know how to get a pair in > > >HO scale. Also does anyone have any general info on this class of car? > >Obviously they were not as popular as the N6b. Was it a one of a kind car? > > >If so was it used primarily in a specific region? > > > >Thanks!! > > > >Kris Kollar, > - --------- > Kris, > The trucks you descibe are PRR class 2D-F12. They are available from Bowser > > who made them for the X31 and X32 kits. The idea was to have springs with > different spring constants so as to minimize natural oscillations and > produce > a smoother ride. > > > I believe that the N6a was the lines West version of the same N6b designed > for > the east. Clearances in the east required the sloped sides of the coupola. > > The sides of the N6a coupola were vertical. Otherwise I believe the cars > were > the same. > > regards > Andy Miller For a point of information, the trucks under the cabincar are not 2d-f12 trucks. In Pennsy nomenclature, the 2 describes 2 axles. the d describes the journal size which in this case is a 5 1/2 x 10 if memory serves me. the f12 describes the truck which is the 12th in the series of freight trucks. Tender trucks have a t, passenger have a P. The D size journal is for a 50 ton car which is what the x31 and x32 are. The cabin cars didnot use a truck this large, as the cabincars don't weigh near what the 50 ton cars do loaded. The cabincars would take a 2a series truck. Having just moved, I can't place my fingers on my list to find which one. Doug Edwards ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 10:42:03 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: really old A-5s Content-Length: 1130 Hi gang... This is a long shot,but i gotta try...I have two of the very old Hobby Line A-5s engines...one runs,the other is for parts...also i have one of the plastic versions of this engine made by john english.... here is my question...years ago when these engines were made they also made a valve gear kit for them too...i have seen photos and ads for both in the old MRs anyway...if anyone might know where i could find one or if they possibly might have one please let me know...i am trying to add valve gear to the one engine i have that runs well....hey its cheaper that getting a Bowser one...since it already runs! H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:34:26 -0500 (EST) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: Pitcairn (Wall) Yard info Content-Length: 636 Mark: The track diagrams for Pitcairn were published in Pennsy Journal Vol III, No. 1 and 2. Vol 3 No 1 includes the 1948 track diagrams. No. 2 has numerous photos and the 1955 freight schedule. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 13:53:54 -0500 Subject: Re: Penn Line K4s Kit From: carl-vic-vogel@juno.com (Carl K Vogel) Content-Length: 2119 Harry and everyone else: Who can tell me the difference, in layman's language between the #2570 CR U25B (former E&L, I believe) and the PRR U28C #6531 in dark green, shown new in October, 1966. By looking at the picture in the PRR 1997 Cedco Calendar, it appears that each truck has 3 axles instead of 2 axles (U25B). Are the lengths the same? Is the Horsepower the same? Are the shells similiar? Thanks, Carl K.Vogel Recently Reinstated Chief Engineer Taunton & Tuckerton Railway On Sat, 29 Nov 1997 11:19:17 -0500 "Harry W. Fitch IV" writes: >To the list members: > >This is an e-mail to announce an item of interest to >the list that I want to sell. Jerry Britton was contacted before >I posted this so that the ethics of the post have been >blessed by the list administrator. > > >For those not knowledgeable about Penn Line, they are the company >that produced most of what Bowser now offers in HO in the way of >PRR metal model kits. Bowser bought the Penn Line equipment >but not the trade name "Penn Line" (that went to another company >that never used it) > > > Harry W. Fitch >hfitch@maranatha.net > Acts 4:12 > >Thank You, >(for your patience with this post) > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", >a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html >. >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 16:33:42 -0700 From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 11/30/97 Content-Length: 2445 > We're aware that a (Quality Craft?) kit that represented "Jacks" > tower was offered at one time, but that's been some years ago and > if it's still available, it's certainly not plentiful. > > The museum is looking for either: > > -- a lead on availability of that kit somewhere. > -- a lead on availability of any other PRR interlocking tower kit. > -- or would be willing to consider purchasing the kit or built-up > model of this or another PRR tower directly from anyone who's willing > to sell. > Dan...The kit you refer to is currently being offered by Gloor Craft as their part number 4004. A quick serch of the Walthers database brought up the response that it is not currently in stock, and the refill date is unknown. You might check with Gloor Craft (or check with some on line hobby shops) to see if any one has one in stock. If you really need one, and can't find one elsewhere, I would consider parting with mine. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > For a point of information, the trucks under the cabincar are not > 2d-f12 > trucks. > In Pennsy nomenclature, the 2 describes 2 axles. the d describes the > journal size > which in this case is a 5 1/2 x 10 if memory serves me. the f12 > describes the > truck which is the 12th in the series of freight trucks. Tender > trucks > have a t, > passenger have a P. The D size journal is for a 50 ton car which is > what the x31 > and x32 are. The cabin cars didnot use a truck this large, as the > cabincars > don't weigh near what the 50 ton cars do loaded. The cabincars would > take a 2a > series truck. Having just moved, I can't place my fingers on my list > to > find > which one. > Actually, the truck is available and (better yet) is cheap. Bowser did the correct truck for their N5a/N5c series of caboose (the one with the big single spring) and this is correct for most N6 cabin cars. Bill Daniels Tucson AZ ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:52:24 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: A-5s Content-Length: 1326 Hello folks... Hmmm i will have to check my Bowser manual and see if the parts might fit. I do know the parts from the A-5 they make will not. but if i remember right and if i am lucky the docksider parts might work, heck maybe i could use the frame,wheels,engine and rods to fix my other metal A-5...I saw in the current bowser manual where they have valve gear parts for the old English mike and pacific...but alas..there too long. oh..i even have a old docksider but can't use the parts from it...too brittle...can only use the body(a future repair and upgrade job for a B&O engine).. I model Baltimore so i can use both the P.R.R. A-5s and since i have a B&O interchange could use a docksider..(a long way from the docks though) thanks for the help... maybe i'll get lucky and some one will accidently see some... H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 21:17:17 -0500 (EST) From: Roger Kirkpatrick Subject: Cabin Cars Content-Length: 1482 Hody, A couple of questions concerning preserved cabin cars: Felton, DE, PRR # &/or PC #? Lewes, DE, DCLR 1000, PRR #? Wyoming, DE, #?, location? Winslow, NJ. PRR # &/or Amtrak #? East Emporium, PA, #?, location? Lickville, PA, #?, Rt 72, near I-81; Mill Hall, PA, #?, Station Restaurant; Minorville, PA, #?, near Reading Depot; Pecan, PA, #?, Vision Quest; Newport, RI, #?, Old Colony & Newport. Thanks for any help you can give with these question. Cheers, Roger P.S. Lots more questions in places like IN, MI, NY, and OH! _______ S. Roger Kirkpatrick ______|_____| [ ] |___________ 927 Colegate Drive | | | | Marietta, OH 45750 | | [ ] [ ] | | | | | | Fax - 614-376-4777 |__|______________________|__| Home - 614-374-6732 O<=>O O<=>O ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: K5 kitbash Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 22:22:01 -0500 Content-Length: 912 Dear PRR-Talk List Members, One knowledgeable gentleman on the list has made note that he is considering kit-bashing a Pennsy K5 pacific from various selections of Bowser boilers, cylinders, drivers and other components. Especially some of the newer parts offered. This seamed intriguing to me. Has anyone else considered the possibilities? I would enjoy feedback on what your thoughts on such a venture would be. Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 22:34:33 -0500 From: fishbein@ezaccess.net (Fishbein, Elliot G.) Subject: Re: Congressional on the NH Content-Length: 2374 Sorry, guys, but the NH could not pull anything from Boston to NYC with EPs or any variety. The catenary only went from NYC to New Haven. Elliot Fishbein At 11:15 PM 11/26/97 -0600, you wrote: >>I wonder if the EPs were used to pull the Florida Trains from Boston to NYC? >>probably so. >> >>Harold >===== > >Doubtlessly! New Haven had the following electric passenger power: > >EP-2 1-C-1 + 1-C-1 27 units 0300 - 0326 West'hse 1918-27 ret 1959 3120 hp >EP-3 2-C + C-2 10 units 0351 - 0360* GE Erie 1931 ret 1952# 3440 hp >EP-4 (I have no further data on these) >EP-5 C-C (?) 10 units (?) (these are the double cab units made in > S scale by American Flyer) > >* renumbered 0350-0359 ># an earlier post stated the retirement dates as 1959-61: this date is off >an erection diagram. > >NH also had the DL-109s which were used in passenger service by day and >manifest freight by night. However, I suspect they were not used on the >premiere trains because, according to a Trains (?) article, the Santa Fe >DL-109s proved inadequate for heavy loads. At 3000+ hp (plus overload >capacity) the electrics would have walked away from the DL-109s nominal >2000 hp/effective 1500 ? hp. > >Mind you: I would be interested to see how the paired Centipedes would have >fared in a short haul environment like the New Haven! > >Bob Boyd >Those Classic Trains > >"The Limited" On Line: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 22:50:36 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: K-5 Content-Length: 1009 Hello all.. Harry...i have also talked to Ivan Frantz of the N.C. chapter about this... he thought it a good idea too....just gotta get the parts....LOL Also i am sending a letter to Bowser about it...that plus some ideas for new engines they could make from parts they have now... also maybe they could come out with parts to change bachmanns cars... I.E. roofs,doors,window inserts,etc...like the ones you can get to change ahm-rivarossi-ihc cars.would love to have the arch roof on some of my bachmann P-70 cars. H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 23:07:42 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Subject: Re: Have the N scalers among us heard? Content-Length: 1588 At 11:40 AM 11/29/97 -0800, Roger Elliott wrote: >Andrew S. Miller wrote: > >> I was thinking of you when I read the other day that Red Caboose is >> entering >> the N scale market. Their first offering is to be their X29 ! :-)) >I am also an N'thusiast. I haven't heard about these new cars. What >era are they? What are the dimensions and features? The X29 boxcar is the "classic" Pennsy boxcar. It's shorter than most, so it really stands out in consists of more modern cars. Its era is prewar through the end of the Pennsy, with increasing weathering. It carried Circle Keystone, Shadow Keystone, Merchandise Service, REA/Express, and eventually Plain Keystone paint schemes (and others, I'm sure). Red Caboose is doing most or all of these. I intend to buy all the PRR numbers they produce, and a smattering of the other roads offered. I'll probably wind up renumbering more. >PS Anyone know if they ever made a model in N of the T-1 Duplex? Hmm... yes, I think there was a brass model made a few years ago. It seemed to have a problem with its siderods falling off and levering the whole business onto its side. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Selling Stuff on this List Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 08:31:54 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1669 Okay, a few people have asked about selling stuff on this list. To date, we have not had any problems. Let's do this, subject to change at my discretion at any time: Selling "Pennsylvania Railroad" models and railroadiana on the list IS fair game. However, non-PRR and "generic rr stuff IS NOT. The subject line of the post should begin with "SALE". This allows those that don't want such mail to quickly delete it or even to build a filter to auto-delete these messages. Posts regarding any particular item should be made only once. If it doesn't sell, don't repost it...try selling it on eBay. Communications between seller and potential buyers should take place off the list. If you have multiple items to sell, put them all in one message. DO NOT send one message per item. This would be abusive to the listserv (and could bruise it!). Let's see how this works out. I know that not everyone will be agreeable, but I think the majority will have no problem with it. I will monitor its use. Thanks. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR box cars Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 09:38:42 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1714 On 12/1/97 10:04 AM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mail11.mitre.org) wrote: >Copied from the freight car list: >- ------ >>Under Walthers new product announcements listing on their web page, >>for December, they show "unknown mfr" 193, with dozens of freight >>cars listed. The vendor listing on another page shows 193 as being >>C&BT Shops, but a search on 193 yields zilch. >> >>I always thought you couldn't get C&BT stuff from Walthers. Has it >>(or is it going to) change soon? Most of the listed kits have been >>out for a while. > >Also under "New Product Announcements" they list their PRR rebuilds, the >X29b's and X29d's :-))). They are listed as "special order". I intend to >have my dealer special order it ASAP! > >It appears as if among C&BT (X29 rebuids and X43's), Red Caboose(X29's) and >Bowser (X31's) almost all of the 40-50's era PRR boxcar need may be met with >accurate kits. Now for an X37, hmmm. I can supply C&BT Shops products through "Merchandise Service" (http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/vendors.html), as well as Red Caboose. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Modified P-70s (was K-5) From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 08:44:23 -0500 Content-Length: 1212 Kit bashing is easier if you start with the ECW kit for the same car. I have built single vesibuled, arch roofed, P70fr's and a PC70a cafe coach from these. regards Andy Miller >Hello all.. > Harry...i have also talked to Ivan Frantz of the N.C. chapter about this... > he thought it a good idea too....just gotta get the parts....LOL > Also i am sending a letter to Bowser about it...that plus some ideas > for new engines they could make from parts they have now... > also maybe they could come out with parts to change bachmanns cars... > I.E. roofs,doors,window inserts,etc...like the ones you can get to > change ahm-rivarossi-ihc cars.would love to have the arch roof on some > of my bachmann P-70 cars. > > H.Mummert > ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Have the N scalers among us heard? From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 08:52:34 -0500 Content-Length: 1553 >Andrew S. Miller wrote: > >> Dennis, >> I was thinking of you when I read the other day that Red Caboose is >> entering >> the N scale market. Their first offering is to be their X29 ! :-)) >> This news >> was from Model Railroad News. >> >> regards >> Andy Miller > >Hello Andy, >I am also an N'thusiast. I haven't heard about these new cars. What >era are they? What are the dimensions and features? > >Thanks >Roger Elliott >relliott.telis@mail.telis.org > - ---- Roger, The x29 was an early 20th century PRR box car. It was 40 ft long and 8 ft 6 high inside. It will therefore be lower than the classic WWII era box car. This size was the standard for all box cars up to the 30s. The PRR built almost 30,000 of them! They appeared almost everywhere as a result. I believe it was the largest single class of box cars ever built. The ARA standard box car was very similar (different tuck spacing and a few other details). Those were built by many other eastern RRs, notably the B&O, RDG, CRRNJ, LNE. The cars lasted until the early 60s in some cases. regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: PRR box cars From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 09:04:22 -0500 Content-Length: 1650 Copied from the freight car list: - ------ >Under Walthers new product announcements listing on their web page, >for December, they show "unknown mfr" 193, with dozens of freight >cars listed. The vendor listing on another page shows 193 as being >C&BT Shops, but a search on 193 yields zilch. > >I always thought you couldn't get C&BT stuff from Walthers. Has it >(or is it going to) change soon? Most of the listed kits have been >out for a while. > >Happy Turkey day. Now don't you guys fight while I'm gone. :^) > > >Timothy O'Connor >Chelmsford, Massachusetts >http://www.avici.com/ - ------- Also under "New Product Announcements" they list their PRR rebuilds, the X29b's and X29d's :-))). They are listed as "special order". I intend to have my dealer special order it ASAP! I already built one of their X43c's and was impressed with the accuracy. They have abandonded many of their old, terrible castings, and replaced them with Tichy stuff. It appears as if among C&BT (X29 rebuids and X43's), Red Caboose(X29's) and Bowser (X31's) almost all of the 40-50's era PRR boxcar need may be met with accurate kits. Now for an X37, hmmm. regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: N6a cabin cars From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 09:25:41 -0500 Content-Length: 1974 >> Kris, >> The trucks you descibe are PRR class 2D-F12. They are available from Bowser >> >> who made them for the X31 and X32 kits. The idea was to have springs with >> different spring constants so as to minimize natural oscillations and >> produce a smoother ride. >> >> I believe that the N6a was the lines West version of the same N6b designed >> for the east. Clearances in the east required the sloped sides of the coupola. >> >> The sides of the N6a coupola were vertical. Otherwise I believe the cars >> were the same. >> >> regards >> Andy Miller > > >For a point of information, the trucks under the cabincar are not 2d-f12 >trucks. >In Pennsy nomenclature, the 2 describes 2 axles. the d describes the >journal size >which in this case is a 5 1/2 x 10 if memory serves me. the f12 >describes the >truck which is the 12th in the series of freight trucks. Tender trucks >have a t, >passenger have a P. The D size journal is for a 50 ton car which is >what the x31 >and x32 are. The cabin cars didnot use a truck this large, as the >cabincars >don't weigh near what the 50 ton cars do loaded. The cabincars would >take a 2a >series truck. Having just moved, I can't place my fingers on my list to >find >which one. > >Doug Edwards > - ------- Doug, You are quite correct.. The cabin car truck would certainly be a 2A-Fsomething. However if the trucks are as Kris described, then the 2D-F12s which Bowser makes will look correct in HO. regards, Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 01 Dec 97 10:50:25 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: PRR/PC villains Content-Length: 10956 --====49544851524853494852===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" I agree with your assessment of Symes. Unfortunately, I think he was typical of a lot of railroad management of that day -- up through the ranks, and thinking that their lines were still operating in the world of the thirties and forties, rather than the "new age" of the superhighway and commercial jet airliners. "No Way..." takes your side about Bevan -- as a clever financial man who modernized much of PRR's accounting practices and kept its head above water with diversification long enough to obtain the approval for the merger with its hated rival. Unfortunately, part of his strategy seemed to be to drain needed cash from the railroad in order to put it into what seemed to be more profitable investments. It could be argued that in the merger game, Pennsy held all the trump cards, yet misplayed every hand. This can be laid at the feet of Symes, and also at a regulatory environment that still viewed PRR as "the dominant railroad in the east", rather than the ailing giant that it was. One wonders, though, even if they were allowed to merge with N&W and Wabash, would PRR's fundamental problems have been rectified, or just merely delayed, due to more infusions of cash? Mark D Bej wrote: > >'ve been thinking about the discussion here about various so-called villains. > >I read _The Wreck_ twice, once quite a while ago, once recently when I >acquired a copy of the book. I saw _No Way_ once, briefly -- it looked >terribly dry. > >I did not come away with the impression that Bevan was being villainized >in and of himself. Sure, he was one of the cronies who invested as a club, >lent to themselves, sat on each others' boards. > >My take (some tincture of time has been added) is that the villains were >the directors and the board. The former for their lack of interpersonal >cooperation and relative inactivity until things began to go bad; the >latter for their total inactivity until things got terrible. > >To be perfectly honest, I think Bevan should be commended for keeping the >sinking ship afloat as long as he did. Remember that PRR was losing >money, N&W making money in 1964. PRR diversifications were by and large >making money, PRR proper still losing money in 1968. For how many years >(decades?) can a company remain afloat while hemorrhaging? > >I'm still curious about those loans that were to come due just before the >bankruptcy declaration. Were these the bonds issued at the time of WW II? >ANyone know for sure? > >Finally, I think one villain gets scant mention in the book. That, IMHO, >is Symes. Symes probably would have been a lackluster, interregnum >type of president had economic (_railroad_ economic, that is) conditions >been better. As it is, he presided over the beginning of the end of the >PRR, which started losing money in 1946 or 7, as I recall. It was he and >his staff who failed to grasp the scope of the post-war problem, the totally >changed marketplace. It was he who had Penn Station destroyed (rather than, >e.g., donating it to the city). It was he who wanted to dump a profitable >railroad (N&W) for a marginally profitable one (NYC), just to accomplish >a vision. It was he who hired Saunders and installed him to complete this >vision. > >Symes, IMHO, is like the President who raises taxes and stalls the economy, >then ends his 2nd term. Saunders et al are hardly blameless but are in the >unenviable position of being the 1st-term President during whose term occurs >a recession started by the policies of the previous President. > >-- >Mark D. Bej, M.D. >bejm@eeg.ccf.org > >Clinical Associate, Section of Epilepsy & Sleep Disorders >Epilepsy Research Fellow, Section of Neurological Computing >Department of Neurology Phone (216) 445-2565 >Cleveland Clinic Foundation S-51 Operator (216) 444-2200 bpr 24095 >9500 Euclid Ave. Fax (216) 445-6617 (public) >Cleveland, Ohio 44195 U.S.A. Voice mail (216) 444-0119 (nonclinical only) > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Now taking orders for Volume II of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings", a >cross-platform CD-ROM. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/index.html . >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --====49544851524853494852===1