From: tom@cfnh2.mv.com Date: 01 Jul 97 13:30:42 UT Subject: AMB PRR Kits Content-Length: 859 Acquired 8 American Model Builders kits of PRR 85' passenger equipment @$5 per at a flea market. (Great to live in B&M country and be interested in PRR and PRSL. ) Acquisitions are: Baggage, Mail-Baggage, Combine, Passenger, Day-Nite Passenger, Diner, Roomette and Observation. To my surprise and relief, the roofs and decking were painted. The metal sides have a five stripe scheme, that reminded me of the running commentary last week on passenger equipment. Only one kit was partially assembled. They look great in the box. Plan to run them behind my Rivarossi GG-1 at our club (Bedford, NH Boomers) shows. A friend told me they were a challenge in the pre-ACC days to assemble. Also advised paying attention to car weight. Anyone have any exoerience assembling these kits? Would appreciate any suggestions/advice. Thanks, Tom Mahon !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 01 Jul 97 13:42:46 UT Subject: FWD: Re: Red Caboose X29 Content-Length: 909 The following inquiry was made by Tim O'Conner on the freight car list. I thought an answer might be found here. regards Andy Miller BTW I'm seriously interested since I painted an ECW PRR G26 in the shadow keystione scheme without ever considering that it might not have a prototype! - ------- The lettering sometimes remained "fresh" due to chalking of the white paint, while the background color shifted to maroon or black or brown or whatever ... Only a newly painted car would be the bright orange color. On a related PRR note: did any of the PRR G26 (65' mill gondolas) receive the shadow keystone lettering with the large PENNSYLVANIA name on the side? The color photos in the MS books show cars with the circle keystone only (and very, very dirty to boot). I want to paint mine circa 1960. Tim O'Connor BBN Systems & Technologies Cambridge, Massachusetts !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: harmanta@monroe.army.mil Date: 01 Jul 97 13:59:22 UT Subject: RE: AMB PRR Kits Content-Length: 485 American Model Builders, or American Beauty? > ---------- > : AMB PRR Kits > > Acquired 8 American Model Builders kits of PRR 85' passenger equipment > @$5 per at a flea market. > To my surprise and relief, the roofs and decking were painted. The > metal > sides have a five stripe scheme, that reminded me of the running > commentary last week on passenger equipment. > Anyone have any exoerience assembling these kits? Would appreciate any > suggestions/advice. > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: kieth@redhorse.astra.co.uk Date: 01 Jul 97 14:30:27 UT Subject: S&NY R.R. Content-Length: 114 Does anyone have any pics or info on the S&NY R.R.? Anything you have will be greatly appreciated. Kieth !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: tom@cfnh2.mv.com Date: 01 Jul 97 14:45:41 UT Subject: Re: AMB PRR Kits Content-Length: 664 harmanta@monroe.army.mil wrote: > > American Model Builders, or American Beauty? > > > ---------- > > : AMB PRR Kits > > > > Acquired 8 American Model Builders kits of PRR 85' passenger equipment > > @$5 per at a flea market. > > To my surprise and relief, the roofs and decking were painted. The > > metal > > sides have a five stripe scheme, that reminded me of the running > > commentary last week on passenger equipment. > > Anyone have any exoerience assembling these kits? Would appreciate any > > suggestions/advice. > > Yes, American Beauty was on top of label. There is a Michigan Address with a zone(!) on it. Thanks, Tom Mahon !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVPedro@aol.com Date: 01 Jul 97 14:53:57 UT Subject: 85' Content-Length: 135 I assembled three of these cars about 25 years ago, but do not remember any details, except that they take a thirity-six inch radius !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: harmanta@monroe.army.mil Date: 01 Jul 97 15:01:14 UT Subject: RE: AMB PRR Kits Content-Length: 704 OK. American Beauty passenger cars, no longer in production, have graduated to the status of collectors items. They still look pretty good on a layout, and I think you got them for a good price. American Model Builders, on the other hand, is in St. Llouis and in current production and I am eagerly awaiting their PR releases. Their UP stuff is great. I never built an American Beauty kit, so all I can say is be careful and on't mess it up. Glad to be of help. Andrew h., with more words than models. > > American Model Builders, or American Beauty? > > > > : AMB PRR Kits > > > Acquired 8 American Model Builders kits of PRR 85' passenger > equipment @$5 per at a flea market. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk@aol.com Date: 01 Jul 97 16:09:03 UT Subject: Re: S&NY R.R. Content-Length: 251 In a message dated 97-07-01 15:06:57 EDT, you write: << Does anyone have any pics or info on the S&NY R.R.? Anything you have will be greatly appreciated. >> There is a chapter on the S&NY in Caloroso's book about the Elmira branch. John !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: tom@cfnh2.mv.com Date: 01 Jul 97 16:36:25 UT Subject: Re: AMB PRR Kits Content-Length: 1916 asmiller@mail11.mitre.org wrote: > > I'm glad several others jumped in and saved me an early e-mail. Yes, what you described sounded like American Beauty Cars. > > They were the premier passenger car of their era (1955-60) and typical of their era for a model they were generic. The same bodies were painted for many railroads. Nothing on the PRR ever looked quite like them. > The "5-stripe" scheme is similarly a figment of AB's imagination. The Raymond Lowey scheme had a dark color window panel with rounded ends. The post war scheme had three stripes, one above the windows and two below. As I recall the AB cars had two stripes on the letterboard and three, evenly spaced from the belt rail down. > > Don't despair, they are definatly a collectors item and will still look good behind your GG-1; at least until you become a rivit (window?) counter and can spot a 10-6 from a P85b at a glance. > > I would suggest that you not mix them with any other smoothside streamlined PRR cars since the paint scheme is "unique". However an IHC RPO car at the front would add some class. > > I also recall that they came with foam-rubber, full-width diaphragms which severely limited the turns they could take. If built without the diaphragms (and they may have crumbled to dust long ago) there is no end detail. You might consider putting set of American Limited standard width diphragms on them. > > With mixed sleepers and coaches you could think of the set as any PRR Blue Ribbon train of the post war era except the Broadway Ltd. > > regards > Andy Miller Andy, Thank you for your comments. The diaphram material is in very good condition. Was not going to use them anyway.Your suggestions convinces me that the "newer" type will be easier to use. Will try not to screw them up. The other comments so far are very helpful, and I'll let you know how they turn out. Tom Mahon !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 01 Jul 97 16:58:03 UT Subject: Announcing the "Conrail-Talk" Mailing List Content-Length: 1253 With the blessing of the Conrail Technical Society, I am pleased to announce a mailing list dedicated to Conrail -- addressing both prototype and modeling concerns. The list is called "Conrail-Talk" and you can subscribe by sending an e-mail to "listserv@dsop.com" with the message "sub conrail-talk your_name". (You should substitute 'your_name' with your real name. This is for administrative purposes only and is not distributed.) Complete listserv commands are available via "http://conrail.dsop.com". REMINDER: This site also serves "PRR-Talk", a mailing list dedicated to the Pennsy. You can subscribe by sending an e-mail to "listserv@dsop.com" with the message "sub prr-talk your_name". (You should substitute 'your_name' with your real name. This is for administrative purposes only and is not distributed.) Complete listserv commands are available via "http://prr.dsop.com". I also spin the pages of "Keystone Crossings", a web site dedicated to the Pennsy. Please visit at "http://prr.dsop.com". Thanks. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: 01 Jul 97 17:29:59 UT Subject: MicroScale Decals for PRR Content-Length: 2787 FYI: The following decals are available from MicroScale: Roadname Description Period HO N O PRR Steam Locos 20-50 48-35 PRR Diesel Cabs & Elec 50-60 48-42 PRR Diesel Cabs 50 48-45 PRR Diesel Alco PA&PB 60-70 48-90 PRR Diesel PA or PB 60-70 48-93 PRR GG-1 50-60s 48-179 PRR Diesel E's & PA's - 48-180 PRR Diesel GP-9 50-68 48-194 PRR Diesel E Units 53-68 48-354 PRR Passenger Cars 47-68 48-459 PRR Passenger Cars T Red 47-68 48-460 PRR Box Cars 47-57 48-554 PRR Pass. Cars, Cal Ze 50-70 87-108 60-108 PRR Diesel Hoods 60-70 87-21 60-21 PRR Box Car 40' Sngl Dr 60 87-38 60-38 PRR Diesel Cabs & Elec. 50-60 87-39 60-39 PRR Steam Locos - 87-66 60-66 PRR Diesel Cabs & Elec. 60-70 87-67 60-67 PRR Locos 5 Stp. Gold 39-52 87-677 60-677 PRR Diesel E Units 53-68 87-810 60-810 PRR Passenger Cars 47-68 87-891 60-891 PRR Passenger Cars 47-68 87-892 60-892 PRR Passenger Cars 49-68 87-893 60-893 PRR Passenger Cars 45-68 87-894 60-894 PRR Box Cars Merch.Serv. 47-57 87-972 60-972 Pullman Std Passenger Cars 20-50 87-371 60-371 Pullman Std Passenger Cars H. Wt. 20-50 87-384 60-384 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: 01 Jul 97 17:50:47 UT Subject: Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 184 Will be in Altoona on Saturday, July 5. Would someone be so kind as to give me directions on how to get to the Curve. Will be arriving in Altoona on US 22 from Pittsburg. Harold !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cupper@ibm.net Date: 01 Jul 97 21:08:27 UT Subject: Re: S&NY R.R. Content-Length: 411 > Does anyone have any pics or info on the S&NY R.R.? Anything you > have will be greatly appreciated. > Kieth > You might try to find the book Story of the Susquehanna & New York by Edward L. Kaseman, 1979 (third edition printed 1990) -- 88 pages plus supplement. Kaseman's address, as listed in the book, is 1315 Grampian Blvd., Williamsport, PA 17701 Dan Cupper Romans 10:9 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 02 Jul 97 09:21:25 UT Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 4084 > Will be in Altoona on Saturday, July 5. Would someone be so kind as to give > me directions on how to get to the Curve. Will be arriving in Altoona on US > 22 from Pittsburg. I recommend: Get off US 22 where the new bypass starts, at the far (east) side of Ebensburg. I believe it's the "Ebensburg Loretto" exit. Head east, that is, don't turn back toward downtown Ebensburg. You're on old US 22. In about 6 miles (I think) you'll come to Cresson. There will be a McDonalds just before an underpass which goes under the mainline. Make a left just before crossing under the mainline. You can park and take a gander and/or wander down to your right to get a better look. I have never been bothered by Conrail police here; YMMV. Continue in same direction (north) crossing over the wye and heading under the no-longer-connected flyover into "Sangertown" (from memory). Make a right. You will go back under the main line and be forced to make a right. You'll now be on the other side of the mainline. There's a small lot and a raised platform put in so you can get good pictures and watch trains, the first stage of a project they're doing in Cresson. You're now pointed south, toward old US 22. Continue in that direction until you come to a cross-street, and make a left. Go one block to PA 53 and make a left again. Several (3 or 4) miles north is a flying right turn to "Gallitzin", well marked. Take it. Before you get that far is a bridge on PA 53 over the mainline which you may wish to stop at for pix. Going up into Gallitzin the road forks; Take the right fork. At some point (I forget street names) you'll have to make a right and then a left quickly but you'll be roughly paralleling the mainline. Eventually you come to Jackson Street, make a right and find a place to park, probably near the caboose! Some nice shots can be had here; If you're looking for westbounds you can by sitting on the concrete rail between the sidewalk and street and ducking down see light at the east end of the tunnels. When you're done head across the bridge to your south. Make either of the first two rights, then a left a block later. You'll go straight til you cross over the New Portage branch, then go left. They cut back the foliage here so you can see the portal of the tunnel without wandering back into the underbrush now; Parking is somewhat a pain though, esp. on a holiday weekend. Continue on this road to the top of the hill. When you get to the top, make a left. This will be "Tunnelhill Avenue" as I recall. (Aside: I know of no legal way to get the east portals. If you want to take your chances with Conrail police, which I can't recommend, you can, at the top of the hill, make a right, then a left onto Sugar Run Road, and look for the trail on your left marked "no tresspassing" where the New Portage branch crossed Sugar Run Road before heading down to Hollidaysburg before new US 22 severed the ROW). Head north about 2 or 3 miles. You'll be making a right, it will be the first real road on your right, there's a sign telling you it's to Horseshoe Curve, and right after you turn onto it you'll see a sign designating it the "Blair County Veterans Memorial Highway". Ignore the fact that you're still in Cambria County at that point;-) Go down the hill. It's probably too grown in now that summer is here but if you look there are old beehive ovens on your left near the bottom. After crossing under the mainline the curve will be on your left. You can repeat these steps backwards, or continue toward Altoona when you're done. You'll have to make one left turn to head into downtown Altoona; I believe you can do it at "Belmont" but there are others that will work. Plenty of bridges over the mainline near the Altoona Transportation Center, also one north of that area, in an area apparently known as Juniata. Lots of photo-ops, if the light's right. Perhaps one of our Altoona-area list members can also give you ideas; I'm sure theirs are much better than mine. -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: drm6@psu.edu Date: 02 Jul 97 11:37:44 UT Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 2856 Greetings to Harold and the group, To get directly to Horseshoe Curve from US Rt 22 from Pittsburgh, I would take 22 the whole way to its junction with PA 764. Take PA 764 and head towards Altoona. Be careful at this interchange. The junctions of US Rt 22, US RT 220 and PA 764 all occur here within a mile. Watch the signs carefully. I believe the first sign reads something like "Altoona Duncansville via Rt 764" then "Altoona via 764" puts you on the right road. Again you really need to pay attention to the signs. Once on 764 and heading towards Altoona, you will come to your first red light. Do not turn, stay on 764. You will pass a UPS terminal on your right and then quickly go under a railroad bridge. (This is the line to WYE, which then split to the line to Muleshoe Curve and SF and the line to Hollidaysburg and eventually to Petersburg.) An Altoona sewer plant will then be on your right and a Carter Lumber store on your left. You will then come to your second red light. Do not turn. This is where Surgar Run Road intersects 764. Surgar Run Road can take you to Tunnel Hill. After passing through the intersection of Surgar Run Road and 764, you will pass a Gulf Oil terminal and a Honda Car Dealer on your left. A bit after that will be a Riverside Grocery store on your right. At the next red light get in the center lane. You are going to make a left hand turn. This is 58th street. The 58th Street Bakery will be on your right and a audio/video store on your left. Turn left onto 58th Street. By the way. it's about 3 to 4 miles from the 764 interchange to 58th street. You will immediatly go over a railroad track. This is the line you went under a bit earlier. Continue on 58th street. You will come to a stop sign. This intersection is not quite at 90 degrees. You want to proceed straight accross the intersection and continue on 58th Street. BE CAREFUL at this intersection. There is a blind hill on your left. The posted speed limit is 25 MPH but few obey it. Look to the right then left then go like hell to get accross the intersection! Stay on 58th Street. You will pass Hillside and Polland Avenues on your left. (By the way, you will be less than a mile from my home at this point.) Then an 'S' curve comes up and you then pass Valley Ave on your left also. You will go over an orange painted metal grated bridge that 'sings'. A bit later you are at a 'T' intersection. This is the road to Horseshoe Curve also known as 40th Street. Make a left, the Curve is about 3 miles. Enjoy your visit to the CUrve. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 05:50 PM 7/1/97 UT, you wrote: >Will be in Altoona on Saturday, July 5. Would someone be so kind as to give >me directions on how to get to the Curve. Will be arriving in Altoona on US >22 from Pittsburg. > >Harold > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: harperd@arctic.tamug.tamu.edu Date: 02 Jul 97 13:53:08 UT Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 447 I am headed home to the Pittsburgh area on vacation in a couple of weeks and was thinking about visiting the Curve. Have not been there in years. I'd also like see whatever remains of the Altoona shops. Are they difficult to find? Is there anything else in Altoona that would be of interest on a day trip? Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 02 Jul 97 14:05:52 UT Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 1368 From: harperd@arctic.tamug.tamu.edu > I am headed home to the Pittsburgh area on vacation in a couple of weeks and was > thinking about visiting the Curve. Have not been there in years. I'd also like > see whatever remains of the Altoona shops. Are they difficult to find? Is > there anything else in Altoona that would be of interest on a day trip? I made my first (and only) visit to The Curve about a year and a half ago. No doubt, it is a sight to see, and a place worth spending some time. Visitors Center is pretty decent too. In Altoona, there's the Railroader's Memorial Museum. It was somewhat in disarray at the time, as they were preparing to move into a new building. May be worth a visit. However, I recommend Cresson. When I visited The Curve, I didn't realize how close it was...about 10 miles. I visited Cresson about a year ago. At Cresson is a full, four-track interlocking, with two branch line junctions. There used to be a flyover, but it has been removed. Also at Cresson are the diesel helper facilities. You can watch trains pass and helpers cutting off. Also worth a few hours. Question is, how much time do you have? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 02 Jul 97 15:24:07 UT Subject: Re: a PRR logo?? Content-Length: 737 In a message dated 97-06-30 21:00:37 EDT, TVondruska@aol.com writes: << Jerry's quip "Somewhere West" may not be appropos. I just ran through my complete (until I learn of still another pioneer line) Lines West Geneology (now on HTML) and found no listing for any road with initials consisting only of S and W, at least none that I've found yet. A Lines West page is not dead. AOL now offers 10 megs of space. That's enough for my purposes. The Lines West geneology is now 33 pages long. How can I make it searchable? >> This may not be a PRR patch at all. It may be the Southwesern Pennsylvania RR -- a shortline which is operating former PRR branch lines south and southwest of Youngwood. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 02 Jul 97 15:35:44 UT Subject: Re: a PRR logo?? Content-Length: 368 >This may not be a PRR patch at all. It may be the Southwesern Pennsylvania >RR -- a shortline which is operating former PRR branch lines south and >southwest of Youngwood. > >Rich Orr > > - ----- This may not be a RAILROAD patcth at all! The PRR had no copyright or trademark on the keystone, only on their unique usage of it. regards Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: dennis@bbn.com Date: 02 Jul 97 16:25:31 UT Subject: Re: MicroScale Decals for PRR Content-Length: 1700 On 1 Jul, Eichhorn@aol.com wrote: > Roadname Description Period HO N > PRR Box Car 40' Sngl Dr 60 87-38 60-38 Does anybody know what car data is included? (X29, etc) I would assume from the period that it's the Shadow Keystone paint scheme. > PRR Passenger Cars 47-68 87-891 60-891 > PRR Passenger Cars 47-68 87-892 60-892 > PRR Passenger Cars 49-68 87-893 60-893 > PRR Passenger Cars 45-68 87-894 60-894 One of these is a sheet full of lightweight car names, and another is heavyweight names, and I think the other two are striping. I've been using them to rename my N Scale Rivarossi 10-6s (from Huron Rapids) and the Tower View (from Mountain View). My only gripe is that there aren't enough instances of RAPIDS, and they don't match the factory lettering (the decals are better), so you can't just replace the HURON with, for instance, CATAWISSA. (Andy, be quiet!) > PRR Box Cars Merch.Serv. 47-57 87-972 60-972 I have several of these sets. Be careful before you buy -- half of the sets I bought had misregistrations bad enough to make the MS-1 version (aluminum stripe, red letters) unusable. My local shop would have taken them back, but just refunded my money and let me keep them when I said I could still use everything on the sheet except the MS-1 stripe. Microscale could have easily provided car data for the 50' cars, but didn't; there's enough striping to fit. Dennis !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 02 Jul 97 17:13:07 UT Subject: PennLine/Bowser kits Content-Length: 954 Greetings all, I guess I'm re-igniting Jerry's K-4 thread of a couple of weeks ago. I just got back from an auction where everyone was looking at the RC model airplane, boat and car kits and kinda ignored an interesting selection of 1950s-era HO kits. For less than a third of the price that one of these now commands I came home with three complete but unbuilt HO steam loco kits, a PennLine E6 4-4-2 Atlantic, a Bowser 4-8-0 H9 Atlantic and a Bowser 2-10-0 I-1 Decapod (all with tender). My questions. I have a MDC E-6 Atlantic needing a motor and a complete MDC H-9 kit. What do I need to do if I want to double head these with the PennLine/Bowser loco of the same class? Would a Decapod tender have a trainphone aerial? Is there any source of correct road numbers for any of these units on the Columbus, Cincinnati or Panhandle subdivisions? And just what was the color of the cab roofs and tender decks? Tom V. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 02 Jul 97 17:14:47 UT Subject: Re: MicroScale Decals for PRR Content-Length: 679 I've been using them to rename my N Scale >Rivarossi 10-6s (from Huron Rapids) and the Tower View (from >Mountain View). My only gripe is that there aren't enough >instances of RAPIDS, and they don't match the factory >lettering (the decals are better), so you can't just replace >the HURON with, for instance, CATAWISSA. (Andy, be quiet!) > >Dennis > - ----- The IHC/AHM/Rivarossi PRR lettering is notoriously wrong. Don't try to match it. And I won't say a thing about HURON RAPIDS being an ACF car while CATAWISSA RAPIDS was a PS car. I have numerous AHM 10-6s lettered for PS cars myself - don't tell anyone- please. regards, The mystery responder. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cupper@ibm.net Date: 02 Jul 97 19:40:35 UT Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 3010 was thinking about visiting the Curve. Have not been > there in years. I'd also like see whatever remains of the Altoona > shops. Are they difficult to find? Is there anything else in > Altoona that would be of interest on a day trip? Don, there have been a couple of posts here in the last day regarding directions to the Curve that give some hints. The shops are not hard to find, but locomotives are often parked way back in, or between buildings, so photo opportunities are limited. As far as a list of place to see or watch the action is concerned, I'd suggest: 1. Cresson-Gallitzin-Horseshoe Curve Vicinity - The park at the west portals of Gallitzin and Allegheny tunnels, downtown Gallitzin. - Mainline trackside vantage point in Cresson, near the railroad bed-n-breakfast and across the tracks from the helper-locomotive servicing area. - Allegheny Portage Railroad National Historic Site, Cresson (actually, on top of the mountain and south of town, not in Cresson itself). - And of course, Horseshoe Curve; if you drive down the mountain from Gallitzin to the Curve on the "veterans memorial" road, watch along the way for the ruins of the village of Glen White with its coke ovens, and the right of way of the private railroad that connected with the PRR main at the Curve. 2. Duncansville-Hollidaysburg - Muleshoe Curve on old US 22. - wye where original PRR main line (1850) met the Allegheny Portage Railroad. - former Samuel Rea freight-car shops, Hollidaysburg. 3. Altoona area >From west to east: - Brickyard crossing, good place to watch trains, particularly westbounds, which are pulling hard by this point in the grade. (Maybe Drew can give specific directions there, I usually find my way to it by turning off Broad Avenue on one of several cross-streets.) -24th Street bridge over the main line; this has chicken wire on one side so photo opportunities are limited, but still a good location. - 17th Street bridge; you're right above Alto Tower and the branch to Hollidaysburg at this point. - 12th Street foot bridge over tracks is a good vantage point to look east and west along the main line and also see the passegner station. This is adjacent to the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum, which is in the early stages of occupying the former PRR Master Mechanics Building; from the foot bridge you can also see part of the former Altoona Machine Shops complex, now used by Altoona Pipe & Steel as a contract freight-car repair site. - Fourth Street foot bridge. - The shops that remain stretch eastward along Chestnut Avenue between downtown Altoona and the Juniata section of the city. At Juniata you can drive around the back side of the Erecting & Machine Shop and look through the fence (not chicken-wire) at the turntable and the engines parked outside. - Eighth Street bridge, Juniata. - Pinecroft, local road bridge over the main line. Dan Cupper Romans 10:9 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: lpmorgan@iquest.net Date: 02 Jul 97 21:32:35 UT Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 3214 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D19BB5703B411FB98ED7603A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit britton@pit-magnus.com wrote: > > From: harperd@arctic.tamug.tamu.edu > > > I am headed home to the Pittsburgh area on vacation in a couple of > weeks > and was > > thinking about visiting the Curve. Have not been there in years. > I'd > also like > > see whatever remains of the Altoona shops. Are they difficult to > find? > Is > > there anything else in Altoona that would be of interest on a day > trip? > > I made my first (and only) visit to The Curve about a year and a half > ago. > No doubt, it is a sight to see, and a place worth spending some time. > Visitors Center is pretty decent too. > > In Altoona, there's the Railroader's Memorial Museum. It was somewhat > in > disarray at the time, as they were preparing to move into a new > building. > May be worth a visit. > > However, I recommend Cresson. When I visited The Curve, I didn't > realize how > close it was...about 10 miles. I visited Cresson about a year ago. At > Cresson is a full, four-track interlocking, with two branch line > junctions. > There used to be a flyover, but it has been removed. Also at Cresson > are the > diesel helper facilities. You can watch trains pass and helpers > cutting off. > Also worth a few hours. > > Question is, how much time do you have? > --------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > Progressive Information Technologies > britton@pit-magnus.com > http://www.pit-magnus.com I was in the area about 3 years ago on my way to the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum in Strasbourg. My wife and I caught a passenger train from Johnstown (sp?) to Altoona, and on through to Huntingdon. We caught a return train as well. The station at Johnstown had a good "fresco" showing the route through the mountains, and is a neat structure in itself. We saw a lot of great action on the Johnstown - Altoona portion both ways. The train museum WAS near the Altoona station (not sure if it has moved. I wish we had just gotten off at Altoona, but we would have missed the rail side view of the Altoona Shops. Riding the passenger train gave us a different view. Seeing a working Burro crane on a nearby track was neat. Much of the action was at Cresson. The Allegheny Tunnel is fairly close to Horseshoe Curve as well and worth a couple of hours. We did well in one way. We rode the "Broadway Limited" in its last week. It was our first travel by commercial train. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS --------------D19BB5703B411FB98ED7603A Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Larry P. Morgan Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Larry P. Morgan n: ;Larry P. Morgan email;internet: lpmorgan@iquest.net x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE end: vcard --------------D19BB5703B411FB98ED7603A-- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cupper@ibm.net Date: 03 Jul 97 01:30:10 UT Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve, part 2 Content-Length: 1661 In further response to Don Harper's request on Horseshoe Curve info, this part of my message somehow bounced back, so I'm reposting it. > - Brickyard crossing, good place to watch trains, particularly > westbounds, which are pulling hard by this point in the grade. > (Maybe Drew McG. can give specific directions there, I usually find my > way to it by turning off Broad Avenue on one of several > cross-streets.) > > -24th Street bridge over the main line; this has chicken wire on one > side so photo opportunities are limited, but still a good location. > > - 17th Street bridge; you're right above Alto Tower and the branch > to Hollidaysburg at this point. > > - 12th Street foot bridge over tracks is a good vantage point to > look east and west along the main line and also see the passegner > station. > This is adjacent to the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum, which > is > in the early stages of occupying the former PRR Master Mechanics > Building; from the foot bridge you can also see part of the former > Altoona Machine Shops complex, now used by Altoona Pipe & Steel as a > contract freight-car repair site. > > - Fourth Street foot bridge. > > - The shops that remain stretch eastward along Chestnut Avenue > between downtown Altoona and the Juniata section of the city. At > Juniata you can drive around the back side of the Erecting & Machine > Shop and look through the fence (not chicken-wire) at the turntable > and the engines parked outside. > > - Eighth Street bridge, Juniata. > > - Pinecroft, local road bridge over the main line. > > > Dan Cupper > > Romans 10:9 > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 03 Jul 97 09:01:53 UT Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 394 > - Muleshoe Curve on old US 22. Last time I checked you could drive up a small hill to the west of the bridge and to the south of route 22, and drive out on the bridge. The gate on the far side was closed, so I got no further, but then I drove the other way out the former New Portage line all the way to (I think it was) 764, the first place where they had removed a bridge. -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 03 Jul 97 09:46:48 UT Subject: RE: PennLine/Bowser kits Content-Length: 3246 Tom, Of the three locos only the I1 would have definately had a trainfone. The E6s, to the best of my knowledge, never had them; and only some of the H9s, but not all, had them. I suspect those in branchline service were never equipped; while those that trod the main carried the antennae - but that's just a guess. BTW I presume it was eary in the morning, before your first cup of coffe when you wrote your e-mail. Of course you know that the H9s were 2-8-0s not 4-8-0s and that 2-8-0s were Consolidations not Atlantics. About double heading, I have no expererience with the MDC locos so I can't give a real answer; but thats never stopped me from giving an uninformed opinion before ;-) I have run mixed locos of other type with mixed success. I suspect that the Bowser/PL is so heavy that it will dominate the pair and that as long as you put the faster engine in the front you will have no trouble. However, that said, it seems to me from fotos and previous sightings of MDCs locos, that they are generic with minor road modifications (e.g. raised headlite fopr the PRR). When placed next to your Bowser/PL E6 the differences will be very apparent. Besides which, I don't know of a case where the PRR ever double headed these engines. They could have used a single K4. Now for the bad/good news. I don't believe there ever was a prototype for the Bowser/PL "low side" tender; certainly knot on the E6's. Maybe on the H9 its close. However the MDC PRR tender is correct! Since your MDC needs a new motor, and the MDC boiler is wrong, and the Bowser tender is wrong, and you don't need 2 E6s, I see a plan forming. I might point out that I replaced the tender on my B/PL E6 with an MDC tender years ago. If you do, don't forget to put a back wall on the loco cab. Its absence from the B/PL boiler casting will be very apparent when the very low 6000 gal MDC tender is in tow. Now for the last item. I hope you get a more definitive answer to the "red roof" issue than I did! I'll be lurking and listening. BTW shows and auctions such as you found are great places to find used B/PL engines. I have acquired 2 K4s, and E6, and an L1 at such places. Toy train players give up on them too easily :-)) regards Andy Miller >Greetings all, > >I guess I'm re-igniting Jerry's K-4 thread of a couple of weeks ago. I just >got back from an auction where everyone was looking at the RC model airplane, >boat and car kits and kinda ignored an interesting selection of 1950s-era HO >kits. For less than a third of the price that one of these now commands I >came home with three complete but unbuilt HO steam loco kits, a PennLine E6 >4-4-2 Atlantic, a Bowser 4-8-0 H9 Atlantic and a Bowser 2-10-0 I-1 Decapod >(all with tender). > >My questions. > >I have a MDC E-6 Atlantic needing a motor and a complete MDC H-9 kit. What do >I need to do if I want to double head these with the PennLine/Bowser loco of >the same class? > >Would a Decapod tender have a trainphone aerial? > >Is there any source of correct road numbers for any of these units on the >Columbus, Cincinnati or Panhandle subdivisions? > >And just what was the color of the cab roofs and tender decks? > >Tom V. > > > > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: drm6@psu.edu Date: 03 Jul 97 11:27:27 UT Subject: Getting to the Brickyard was Re: Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 2131 Greetings to Harold, Dan and the group, Harold, once you get to the Curve, pick up a "Path of Progress" pamphlet. You will notice "Path of Progress" signs around the Altoona area. This "Path of Progress" project promotes the area's industrial heritage. You can use these signs to locate the museum and the shops in Altoona. Just follow the signs when you leave the Curve and head toward Altoona. To get to the Brick Yard crossing (Coburn area), follow the "Path of Progress" signs from the Curve to Altoona. About 3 miles from the Curve, you will pass the Alegro Restaurant on your left. You will be on 40th street. You will make a left turn on to Beale Avenue. Again the "Path of Progreee" signs should be directing you this way. Stay on Beale Avenue till you come to a 'T' intersection with a red light. This is Logan Blvd. Turn left on to Logan Blvd. It will turn back in to Beale Ave. Make sure you get in the left lane. You will be making a left turn at the first red light. At this point, you will be leaving the "Path of Progress". This is 31st street. Once you make this turn, you will come to another red light right away. This is Broad Ave. Go straight through the intersection to stay on 31st street. You want to take the last left to get over the creek (Mill Run) prior to going through the RR underpass. It's about 5 or 6 blocks. Not every street has a bridge over the creek. I believe it will be either Pine or 10th ave. Just make sure it's the last one prior to the underpass. Follow the street untill you have to turn or bear right. This road will then take you to the brick yard. It's not very far. If you get lost, ask how to get to the brick yard or the Coburn RR Crossing. Hope this was helpful. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA > >3. Altoona area > >>From west to east: > >- Brickyard crossing, good place to watch trains, particularly >westbounds, which are pulling hard by this point in the grade. (Maybe >Drew can give specific directions there, I usually find my way to it >by turning off Broad Avenue on one of several cross-streets.) > > >Dan Cupper !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 03 Jul 97 15:09:48 UT Subject: Strasburg on Sunday...anyone? Content-Length: 386 Weather permitting, I'll probably trek to the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania in Strasburg on Sunday. Anyone game? (Reply to the list or to "jerry@dsop.com" cause I'll be outta here real soon!) --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 04 Jul 97 09:50:03 UT Subject: Past "PRR-Talk" And "Conrail-Talk" Posts Are Now Retrievable Content-Length: 827 Past posts to "PRR-Talk" and "Conrail-Talk" are available for searching/retrieval. Access to my AppleSearch Server is available via the "PRR-Talk" and "Conrail-Talk" instruction pages ("http://prr.dsop.com/prrtalk.html" and "http://conrail.dsop.com/conrailtalk.html" respectively). Indexes are updated nightly at 11 p.m. (NOTE: The "PRR-Talk" archive is incomplete from inception through May 31, 1997. I am working on this.) FYI: Backups run at 2 a.m. daily. Full backups on Monday mornings will take several hours; other nights just a few minutes. This will affect performance for you night owls! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 04 Jul 97 11:15:34 UT Subject: Re: PennLine/Bowser kits Content-Length: 1214 In a message dated 97-07-03 13:43:32 EDT, asmiller@mail11.mitre.org writes: << PRR). When placed next to your Bowser/PL E6 the differences will be very apparent. Besides which, I don't know of a case where the PRR ever double headed these engines. They could have used a single K4. Now for the bad/good news. I don't believe there ever was a prototype for the Bowser/PL "low side" tender; certainly knot on the E6's. Maybe on the H9 its close. However the MDC PRR tender is correct! Since your MDC needs a new motor, and the MDC boiler is wrong, and the Bowser tender is wrong, and you don't need 2 E6s, I see a plan forming. I might point out that I replaced the tender on my B/PL E6 with an MDC tender years ago. If you do, don't forget to put a back wall on the loco cab. Its absence from the B/PL boiler casting will be very apparent when the very low 6000 gal MDC tender is in tow. >> Since the early (pre 1995) Bowser and all Penn Line boilers are incorrect for the PRR , mixing the Penn Line locomotive with the MDC tender will still let you with a correct tender and an incorrect locomotive. Replacement boilers in the correct shape are available from bowser. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: nhlives@bestweb.net Date: 04 Jul 97 11:33:21 UT Subject: Re: (Fwd) Mother of All RR Lists Content-Length: 422 anybody got the info handy to get on the conrail press release list? With the upcoming merger it ought to be interesting in its last few months. Danbury Railway Museum: http://www.danbury.org/org/drm New Haven RS-1 #0673 up and running at Danbury Railway Museum. Danbury Railway Museum P O Box 90 Danbury CT 06813-0090 (The views/opinions expressed above do not reflect those of Danbury Railway Museum) !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rhensley@ecicnet.org Date: 04 Jul 97 13:05:19 UT Subject: Conrail News Link Service Content-Length: 942 > From: nhlives@bestweb.net > Date: 04 Jul 97 11:33:21 UT > Subject: Re: (Fwd) Mother of All RR Lists > anybody got the info handy to get on the conrail press release list? > From the Conrail Web site www.conrail.com Conrail News Link The Conrail News Link service gives you the abililty to receive all Conrail press releases in electronic mail format as they are issued. To subscribe to the Conrail News Link, send a message to conrail-lists@jupiter.webcommerce.com with the words "subscribe conrailnewslink" in the body of the message. Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org Information Systems Specialist - Ball State University - Muncie, IN === http://ecicnet.org/~rhensley/cidwelco.html ===================== === Homepage of the Central Indiana Division, Midwest Region NMRA == !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 05 Jul 97 00:30:42 UT Subject: Re: PennLine/Bowser kits Content-Length: 1379 In a message dated 97-07-03 21:01:06 EDT, you write: << Of course you know that the H9s were 2-8-0s not 4-8-0s and that 2-8-0s were Consolidations not Atlantics. >> Andy, I'm sentenced to third shift. When I posted that message it was about 10 p.m. and I had been up for 24 hours that included one 8-hour shift, five hours at an outdoor auction with heat and humidity in the 90s and three hours undere severe thunderstorm and tornado warnings with my wife, two sons (9 & 11) and two nephews (7 & 13). I feel very fortunate that you could comprehend anything at all. (It was Wednesday in southwest Ohio. We didn't get hit as bad as Michigan but this morning Fri. 7/4/97, 5,000 were still without power in the Dayton-Springfield area. Thankfully, every seemed to miss Yellow Springs.) I've already decided that only the Decapod with the incorrect tender will get the trainfone. I'll model one H-9 as a Pennsy in service on the Springfield branch and update the other to an H-10 (power reverse and different running boards, if I remember right) sold to the DT&I, I believe and will put it in service on the DT&I main on my South Charleston Module which will include the DT&I main crossing the Panhandle Columbus Division main. I doubt that any Atlantic had the trainphone as they would have been in very limited service during the 1940s. Tom V. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hosam@gc.net Date: 06 Jul 97 12:30:26 UT Subject: FM C-Liners Content-Length: 174 Greetings, Looking thru the Yanosey books on the PRR for FM C-Liners all I found were in the "Brunswick" green. Were none of these painted in the "Tuscan" red?? !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cupper@ibm.net Date: 06 Jul 97 14:39:01 UT Subject: Re: FM C-Liners Content-Length: 661 > Looking thru the Yanosey books on the PRR for FM C-Liners all I > found > were in the "Brunswick" green. Were none of these painted in the > "Tuscan" red?? > Nope, not a one of them. Just a year ago Withers Publishing released the book "C-Liners" which details the fleets operated by all roads that bought C-Liners. All photos, black & white and color, show the only scheme the units wore -- dark green locomotive shade, relieved by a single gold stripe down each side, gold lettering, and red keystones on each side and on the nose of A-units. So all of those tuscan AHM models are inaccurate. Dan Cupper Romans 10:9 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 06 Jul 97 20:39:57 UT Subject: Re: FM C-Liners Content-Length: 475 In a message dated 97-07-06 12:42:54 EDT, you write: << Looking thru the Yanosey books on the PRR for FM C-Liners all I found were in the "Brunswick" green. Were none of these painted in the "Tuscan" red?? >> None of the FM C-liners B-B trucks were ever painted tuscan. Likewise, the similar Erie Built A-1-A A-1-A truck versions were all darl locomotive enamel. None were ever tuscan. PRR considered these freight locos not passenger. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 07 Jul 97 06:57:29 UT Subject: Review: "Philadelphia Terminal Division" Content-Length: 2034 I just had the opportunity to view Digital Image Works' video on the "Philadelphia Terminal Division", which they released in 1996. The video jacket reads: "An historic look at the Pennsy's tremendous physical plant in the Philadelphia area. Ride MP-54s down the Westchester and the Media lines. Circus trains departing the Cardington branch and running across the highline. Busy scenes of the 30th street coach yards, upper level suburban commuter operations, electrified and diesel power freights moving on the highline. Views of the experimental G.E. and Westinghouse electrics pulling tonnage alongside GG-1 powered Clockers and Limiteds. Traffic moving through Zoo interlocking. North Philadelphia, Frankford Jct., Darby and detours over the B&O. Color maps, graphics and narration. Approximately 35 Minutes, color, B&W, graphics, narration, prototype sound." I've seen a lot of "hacks" at splicing together old 8mm footage, but these people have done a fine job. Splices are smooth and the shots are of decent quality. A continuous soundtrack (with narration) keeps it smooth -- whereas some old footage had sound added, and was then spliced togther. The use of maps is very informative to the non-Philadelphian like myself. Suddenly, many of the past "PRR-Talk" posts make sense! As a young'n, I couldn't imagine Philadelphia without the Skylkill (sp.) Expressway -- but there it was...30th Street Station and its coach yard, but no highway between it and the river! This video is a "must have" for anyone planning to model the Terminal Division or any of the "minor branches" that spread out from Philly. (Dave Wartel, are you listening?) Digital Image Works has a Web site at http://www.diwks.com . I have several of their other videos which will be forthcoming. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 07 Jul 97 08:20:38 UT Subject: Re: PennLine/Bowser kits Content-Length: 994 Rich Orr said: >Since the early (pre 1995) Bowser and all Penn Line boilers are incorrect for >the PRR , mixing the Penn Line locomotive with the MDC tender will still let >you with a correct tender and an incorrect locomotive. Replacement boilers >in the correct shape are available from bowser. > >Rich Orr > Rich, I was unaware of any inaccuracies in the original PL boilers, except of course, that they cast the K4's sand dome in place on the boiler and then used the same casting on the L1. They did this because the PRR used the same boiler on the L1 as on the K4. But the Pennsy never cast the sand dome on! As a result the sand dome and bell on the original P/L L1 need to be swapped. I believe later Bowser kits have the sand dome as a separate casting; allowing the builder to mount them in the correct position for each of the locos. What other inaccuracies appear? I have two K4s and 2 L1s in regular service and you have me worried! regards Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 07 Jul 97 08:25:51 UT Subject: Railroad Museum of Pa. Content-Length: 891 Went to Strasburg yesterday, to the RMOP. It was "Reading Days" (yawn) this weekend. The newly restored BP20 looks great! Took a few pics of the K4 to assist me in building my Bowser. Work on restoring the Russell Snow Plow has slowed. Apparently they rebuilt the cabin and, when mounting it, discovered more rotten wood in the underframe. They had to remove the new cabin and set it aside to rebuild the entire car from scratch. It's hardly recognizable. "J" Tower looked great for the 4th, as they draped red, white, and blue banners from her. My pulse jumped momentarily in the bookstore when I saw a whole shelf full of Pullman-Standard volumes. Alas, no Volume 4's to be found! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 07 Jul 97 08:33:03 UT Subject: Red loco roofs and tender decks Content-Length: 1196 Failed to mention this in my post about the RMOP. We have discussed at some length on this list, without conclusion, the practice of painting the roofs of steam locomotives and the tender decks red. Just for kicks, I went up on the overhead walkway at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania and looked down on the collection. Nearly all of the specimens had red roofs and decks! Were these units restored to their original paint, or was it the preference of the paint shop to go red with everything? (I expect this to be another discussion without conclusion!) I am building a Bowser K4. The K4 at RMOP has the red. However, I have seen b/w photos of K4's at York (I am modeling the Northern Central) and they do not have the red. My model, therefore, will not. BTW: Read a new source on power on the Northern Central. Maxed at K & L classes. The line got the Pennsy's only two K5's once the M's came out. One K5 was used in place of two K4's. The L class was the Northern Central's M1. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 07 Jul 97 08:50:07 UT Subject: Re: Railroad Museum of Pa. Content-Length: 133 > The newly restored BP20 looks great! Uh, EP20? A BP20 is a passenger Shark, and unless I badly missed something... -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 07 Jul 97 08:55:48 UT Subject: Re: Railroad Museum of Pa. Content-Length: 611 From: shadow@dementia.org >> The newly restored BP20 looks great! >Uh, EP20? >A BP20 is a passenger Shark, and unless I badly missed something... Uh, yeah! (If only they had a restored Shark!!!) Guess I was thinking / typing a bit fast! Life would be so much simpler if the PRR had used manufacturer model numbers instead of their own "classes". But then, we wouldn't have as much to talk about, would we? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CBlood59@aol.com Date: 07 Jul 97 09:06:25 UT Subject: Re: GP 38, 40 Content-Length: 155 Hello, Did PRR run any GP 38's or 40's? I have a BN and Conrail that I would like to repaint, and I'm wondering if it makes any sense. Curt Blood !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 07 Jul 97 09:14:38 UT Subject: Re: GP 38, 40 Content-Length: 385 > Hello, > > Did PRR run any GP 38's or 40's? I have a BN and Conrail that I would like > to repaint, and I'm wondering if it makes any sense. Neither. After the GP35s the PRR started buying six axle units again because various improvements that had been made in that arena made those engines more useful for the needs of the railroad. For instance, adhesion... -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 07 Jul 97 09:31:03 UT Subject: Re: Railroad Museum of Pa. Content-Length: 372 >From: shadow@dementia.org > >>> The newly restored BP20 looks great! > >>Uh, EP20? > >>A BP20 is a passenger Shark, and unless I badly missed something... > >Uh, yeah! (If only they had a restored Shark!!!) > - ----- Damn! Now I have to unpack my bags. When I saw you original BP20 post, I was ready to go to PA this morning! regards Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 07 Jul 97 10:07:09 UT Subject: Re: GP 38, 40 Content-Length: 243 In a message dated 97-07-07 09:12:23 EDT, you write: << Did PRR run any GP 38's or 40's? I have a BN and Conrail that I would like to repaint, and I'm wondering if it makes any sense. >> No. SD40 but no GP40 or GP38 Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 07 Jul 97 10:39:24 UT Subject: Another Call For Layout Descriptions Content-Length: 954 Another solicitation for information... Prior to the "great drive crash" in May, I had a description of someone's layout who was modeling the Philadelphia Terminal Division, inclusive of 30th Street and Suburban Stations. I don't remember who it was, but I'd like to get a description of your layout back online at "Keystone Crossings". Please contact me! Anyone else who has a PRR layout, I'd like to post a description of your work as well. Please send details to me at "jerry@dsop.com". Layouts in the construction and / or planning stages are welcome also. (Penn Central and Conrail layouts based on former PRR trackage are welcome as well.) Thanks. Current layout descriptions are at http://prr.dsop.com/layouts . There are six online thus far. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 07 Jul 97 11:00:13 UT Subject: Questions About Northern Central Content-Length: 1568 Hank: (Post is to Hank Mummert, a Northern Central modeler, with copy to "PRR-Talk" list) As you know, I am modeling the Northern Central from York to York Haven (south of Enola, north of Wago Junction). I will be representing Baltimore in the form of a visible staging yard. I may have an opportunity to go beyond staging somewhat, given a better idea of the prototype. I'm not that familiar with Baltimore, but I suspect you are... Was the Northern Central's Baltimore passenger station the one that still stands just off the east side of Interstate 83 about 1/2 mile before the highway ends in downtown Baltimore? If so, the connection to the ex-B&P would be to the north (York side of the station) and the connection to Philly to the south. Correct? Where were the coach yards, Pullman service, and REA in relation to the station? I have read references of a Wye in the area. Was the Wye between the B&P and NC lines just north of the station, or elsewhere? Does the Northeast Corridor still pass through this station, or has it been relocated (perhaps decades ago!)? The NC had an engine facility in Mt. Vernon, just north of the Baltimore station. Which side of the line was this facility on....east or west? (West side, I believe.) Does the current commuter rail system follow the ex-NC right of way? If so, for how far? Thanks. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: drm6@psu.edu Date: 07 Jul 97 11:17:49 UT Subject: Bookstore at Strasburg RR was Re: Railroad Museum of Pa. Content-Length: 987 Greetings to the group, The book store at the Strasburg RR has to be the all time best book store I have ever been in. Took the family there two years ago. If it's in print and about railroading, they seem to have it. They even had that obscure book, _ Electric Traction on the Pennsylvania Railroad, 1895-1968_, Pennsylvania State University Press, c1980, by that little known author, the list's very own Mike Bezilla. If they had that, you know they must have everything! Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 08:25 AM 7/7/97 UT, you wrote: > >Went to Strasburg yesterday, to the RMOP. It was "Reading Days" (yawn) this >weekend. > >My pulse jumped momentarily in the bookstore when I saw a whole shelf full >of Pullman-Standard volumes. Alas, no Volume 4's to be found! >--------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator >Progressive Information Technologies >britton@pit-magnus.com >http://www.pit-magnus.com > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk@aol.com Date: 07 Jul 97 11:27:19 UT Subject: Re: Red loco roofs and tender decks Content-Length: 545 In a message dated 97-07-07 08:43:37 EDT, Jerry wrote: << BTW: Read a new source on power on the Northern Central. Maxed at K & L classes. The line got the Pennsy's only two K5's once the M's came out. One K5 was used in place of two K4's. The L class was the Northern Central's M1. >> That may be true for the southern part of the Northern Central, but the M class did operate to Sodus Point. Only at the bitter end and not for long. Jerry, don't hold out on us. What is the new source on the Northern Central? John Keel !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 07 Jul 97 11:29:16 UT Subject: Re: Bookstore at Strasburg RR was Re: Railroad Museum of Pa. Content-Length: 1384 From: drm6@psu.edu > The book store at the Strasburg RR has to be the all time best book store I > have ever been in. Took the family there two years ago. If it's in print and > about railroading, they seem to have it. They even had that obscure book, _ > Electric Traction on the Pennsylvania Railroad, 1895-1968_, Pennsylvania > State University Press, c1980, by that little known author, the list's very > own Mike Bezilla. If they had that, you know they must have everything! I agree...this is a great bookstore. In fact, they do as much with videos as they do with books. They are also very helpful in filling telephone orders. I have twice given a book name to my wife and she ordered it for me as a gift. Never a problem. Yesterday I spied another "homegrown" book I hadn't heard of before. Now I'm kicking myself for not buying it. Figures! Anyway, it was a 1953 roster of all PRR passenger equipment, including cabins and express cars --- exclusive of Pullmans. Provided classes, car numbers, truck types, etc. Was only $16-20. Guess I gotta pick up the phone now! BTW: That's the store that had all the Pullman books...except for Volume 4 that we all want! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 07 Jul 97 13:52:49 UT Subject: Re: Bookstore at Strasburg RR was Re: Railroad Museum of Pa. Content-Length: 672 > >Yesterday I spied another "homegrown" book I hadn't heard of before. Now I'm >kicking myself for not buying it. Figures! Anyway, it was a 1953 roster of >all PRR passenger equipment, including cabins and express cars --- exclusive >of Pullmans. Provided classes, car numbers, truck types, etc. Was only >$16-20. Guess I gotta pick up the phone now! > >BTW: That's the store that had all the Pullman books...except for Volume 4 >that we all want! >--------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, - ---- Does anyone know if they have a webpage or e-mail address or (as a last resort) what their phone number is? regards Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 07 Jul 97 14:06:18 UT Subject: Re: Bookstore at Strasburg RR was Re: Railroad Museum of Pa. Content-Length: 549 > Yesterday I spied another "homegrown" book I hadn't heard of before. Now I'm > kicking myself for not buying it. Figures! Anyway, it was a 1953 roster of > all PRR passenger equipment, including cabins and express cars --- exclusive > of Pullmans. Provided classes, car numbers, truck types, etc. Was only > $16-20. Guess I gotta pick up the phone now! Hmmm. This means you have contact info. Willing to share with us a phone number and a mailing address? (I prefer not to use phone as I think it is "greatly evil", but...) -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 07 Jul 97 14:22:38 UT Subject: Re: Bookstore at Strasburg RR was Re: Railroad Museum of Pa. Content-Length: 357 From: shadow@dementia.org > Hmmm. This means you have contact info. Willing to share with us a phone number > and a mailing address? Will post tonite, from home. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 07 Jul 97 15:13:41 UT Subject: Internet Map Sites Content-Length: 540 I used to have a link (you know, before the crash) to a Web site wherein you could enter a city, zip code, etc., and navigate an online map. Anyone have this link or a similar one? Want to call up some Baltimore real estate to locate RoW of Northern Central where it meets/met B & P and line to Philly. Anyone have track plans for this area? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: drm6@psu.edu Date: 07 Jul 97 15:29:20 UT Subject: 1953 roster of all PRR passenger equipment was Re: Bookstore Content-Length: 1924 Greetings to the group, Minor warning about this book. I have a copy of this equipment list. Ordered it from the 'publisher' last winter. (Also have the info at home.) I posted a review of it to this list after I received it. Can't seem to find a copy of the review I posted. The order was filled quickly by the 'publisher'. The problem is that is is not a complete roster of passenger equipment as I was lead to believe from a review in _Railroad Model Craftsman_. It seems to be a listing of the equipment assigned to a region or division. My guess it is Philly, based on the book's introduction. Is it worth the price? I would say yes. As long as you realize that it is not the be-all-end-all listing of PRR passenger equipment, it's good as an additional source of data. I did some checks of non-Pullman passenger equipment. I came up with more misses than hits. The guy who 'publishes' this also has a reprint of the PRR 1951 Book of Rules. I picked up a copy of it at English's in Montoursville, PA, while visiting my parents over the 4th. By the way, English's also has the Passenger Equipment Roster Book, if you have trouble tracking it down from the 'publisher' or Strassburg. Both of these books, the Book of Rules and passenger equipment list, are very good photocopies with stiff card covers. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA >Yesterday I spied another "homegrown" book I hadn't heard of before. Now I'm >kicking myself for not buying it. Figures! Anyway, it was a 1953 roster of >all PRR passenger equipment, including cabins and express cars --- exclusive >of Pullmans. Provided classes, car numbers, truck types, etc. Was only >$16-20. Guess I gotta pick up the phone now! > >--------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator >Progressive Information Technologies >britton@pit-magnus.com >http://www.pit-magnus.com > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 07 Jul 97 16:59:00 UT Subject: Re: Northern Central Article (Was: Red loco roofs and tender decks) Content-Length: 796 From: britton@pit-magnus.com >> Jerry, don't hold out on us. What is the new source on the Northern >> Central? > > I could tell you, but then... > > No big deal. It's an article (about a dozen pages) from an issue of Rails > Northeast that I borrowed. I'll have to let you know the month and year > later, as I borrowed several and have them at home. The article includes a > diagram and photos of CLY interlocking (where the Atglen & Susquehanna and > the Northern Central first interface just north of Wago Junction and York > Haven). The issue was March, 1979. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 07 Jul 97 17:01:42 UT Subject: Re: Bookstore at Strasburg RR was Re: Railroad Museum of Pa. Content-Length: 606 From: britton@pit-magnus.com > > Hmmm. This means you have contact info. Willing to share with us a phone number > > and a mailing address? > > Will post tonite, from home. Can't find the phone number direct to the bookstore. Museum store address is: Department M; The Whistle Stop Shop; Railroad Museum of PA; P.O. Box 125; Strasburg, PA 17579. Phone number is: 717-687-8628. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 07 Jul 97 22:32:27 UT From: cobrandt@eclipse.net Subject: Re: Internet Map Sites Content-Length: 511 britton@pit-magnus.com wrote: > > I used to have a link (you know, before the crash) to a Web site wherein you > could enter a city, zip code, etc., and navigate an online map. > > Anyone have this link or a similar one? > try http://www.mapquest.com -Chris _______ __\ /__ ----------\ P /---------- -----------\ R R /----------- ------------\ /------------ \___/ Chris Brandt cobrandt@eclipse.net http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: 08 Jul 97 00:09:14 UT Subject: Re: Red loco roofs and tender decks Content-Length: 246 Jerry did you contact Charlie Horan from the Phila. chapter of the PRRT&HS he has the remaining stock of RNE's and Penny Journals and if anyone would know where Bob Reid is he would. Charlie's # is 215-586-5214 tell him I gave you his name. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVPedro@aol.com Date: 08 Jul 97 07:46:45 UT Subject: Map Sites Content-Length: 230 Try these hyper links for Maps Cyber 411 - Fifteen Search Engine s, One Query , Infoseek , Yahoo! , !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 08 Jul 97 07:56:24 UT Subject: Revised Baltimore Question Content-Length: 1722 No responses to my query yesterday about the Northern Central station in Baltimore. Here's a revised question: The Northen Central initially terminated in Baltimore, at Calvert Station, off the Jones Falls. When the B&P (Baltimore & Potomac) was created, it come in and joined the NC just northwest of Calvert Station. Both lines entered the station from the same (northwest) side. This junction was/is called B&P Junction. When the link was made to the PB & W (Philadelphia, Baltimore and Wilmington), a new Union Station (later renamed Penn Station) was created .8 miles southeast of the existing Calvert Station (which remained in use). The new station was a union station for the PB&W, B&P, NC, and Western Maryland. Rails Northeast, March 1979, and Gunnerson's book on the NC, describe the connection between Calvert and the new Union Station as a wye. This was known as Union Junction. There were passenger engine facilities, including a turntable inside the wye. Of the three legs of the wye, one was obviously the joint NC/B&P line. I am guessing that another was the Western Maryland and the third the PB&W -- with the station on the PB&W leg. Is this correct? Or was one leg a joint PB&W/WM line with the station being on a stub leg of the wye? Is the Union Junction to B&P Junction still active today as part of the Northeast Corridor, or has it been bypassed? If I were southbound out of Calvert Station, bound for Union/Penn Station, when I got to the wye, would I bear right or left? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: harperd@arctic.tamug.tamu.edu Date: 08 Jul 97 09:28:38 UT Subject: Re: Red loco roofs and tender decks Content-Length: 618 In the Spring 1996 edition of the Keystone, pages 20, 21 and 25, are photos made in 1955 of L-1s engines used for generating steam heat. The photo on page 20 is an overhead shot and the both the roof and tender deck are red. On page 21 you can tell the roofs are red. On page 25, are back to back L1s engines, one of which has a red roof and one appears not to. The tender deck, if painted red, is very faded on one. The other appears to be modified and is not red. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org Date: 08 Jul 97 09:42:44 UT Subject: Re: Revised Baltimore Question Content-Length: 4315 > No responses to my query yesterday about the Northern Central station in > Baltimore. Here's a revised question: > > The Northen Central initially terminated in Baltimore, at Calvert Station, > off the Jones Falls. When the B&P (Baltimore & Potomac) was created, it come > in and joined the NC just northwest of Calvert Station. Both lines entered > the station from the same (northwest) side. This junction was/is called B&P > Junction. > > When the link was made to the PB & W (Philadelphia, Baltimore and > Wilmington), a new Union Station (later renamed Penn Station) was created .8 > miles southeast of the existing Calvert Station (which remained in use). The > new station was a union station for the PB&W, B&P, NC, and Western Maryland. > > Rails Northeast, March 1979, and Gunnerson's book on the NC, describe the > connection between Calvert and the new Union Station as a wye. This was > known as Union Junction. There were passenger engine facilities, including a > turntable inside the wye. > > Of the three legs of the wye, one was obviously the joint NC/B&P line. I am > guessing that another was the Western Maryland and the third the PB&W -- > with the station on the PB&W leg. Is this correct? Jerry, I can try to describe in English what the place looks like now. Working from the south and west, the B&P line (NEC) goes N/B thru Balto, west of downtown. At Fulton Jct. the WM comes in at a wye, and the B&P turns somewhat NE. After another tunnel, one reaches B&P Jct tower, where the NC comes in. [The NC had the more favorable angle of approach into Penn Station.] B&P Jct tower was accessed by a short walk off the end of the station platform. The NEC (B&P) continues turning, ultimately facing ESE. THis azimuth is maintained into and through the station. This may be Union RR by this time; I'm uncertain of the exact property line. That's another point you didn't mention, come to think of it. The reason for the name B&P Jct is that that was where the B&P joined. That's obvious. Less obvious, perhaps, is that the name Union Jct comes from the Union RR, which "officially" owned and built the Union Tunnels east of the station, and which connected the PW&B with the NC and B&P. At the east end of the station, at the end of one of the platforms, once stood the very handsome Union Jct tower. (It was removed in the Penn Sta. trackage remodeling a few years ago.) Here the current main line turned slightly so as to go straight E, passed through the Union Tunnels, and connected to the PW&B and Bayview Yard. Just before the tunnels (I believe) was the connection to the street-running trackage that ended at President St. Station, which is a nicely preserved building in the 'Inner Harbor'. > Or was one leg a joint PB&W/WM line with the station being on a stub leg of > the wye? Jerry, note that PB&W [Phila, Balto & Wash] was a later company created by the Pennsy to control, somehow, the Pennsy's PW&B [Phila, Wilm & Balto], the Union, and the B&P holdings. Don't quote me on specifics, however. I've not read that part of Burgess & Kennedy in a while. I don't believe the PW&B and WM had any joint trackage, or they had very little. The WM _did_ have trackage rights into and through Penna Station, I believe to access some freight trackage on the north side of Balto. harbor. WM did have their own freight line thru Balto, still in use and remarkably, still signalled, that cut off before the aforementioned Fulton Jct., went south, then turned east to run along the northern side of the peninsula on the south side of the harbor. > Is the Union Junction to B&P Junction still active today as part of the > Northeast Corridor, or has it been bypassed? NEC (see above). > If I were southbound out of Calvert Station, bound for Union/Penn Station, > when I got to the wye, would I bear right or left? Jerry, unless I'm totally messed up, I believe that Calvert Stn is _east_ of Penn, not west. There is no room west. Are you sure your source is not messed up? I'd have to inspect a map of Balto, which I don't have, but I thought Calvert was at that "other" wye, where the trackage down to the President St Sta. cut off to the south. Can anyone confirm? -- Mark !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 08 Jul 97 10:19:24 UT Subject: Re: Revised Baltimore Question Content-Length: 1300 From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org > Jerry, I can try to describe in English what the place looks like now. Mark: Thanks for your fine and helpful description. > > If I were southbound out of Calvert Station, bound for Union/Penn Station, > > when I got to the wye, would I bear right or left? > > Jerry, > unless I'm totally messed up, I believe that Calvert Stn is _east_ of > Penn, not west. There is no room west. Are you sure your source is not > messed up? Both Gunarson and the RNE article state that Union (later Penn) Station was south of Calvert (an extension of the existing line). However, they note that the distance between stations was only 8/10ths of a mile. Both Calvert and Penn remained in use for locals, but the "big" trains all used Penn. There were three iterations of stations on the Penn site. Perhaps when the most recent Penn was built, both Calvert and the old Penn were razed? Photos show Calvert immediately southeast of B&P Junction. Penn would have to then be almost on top of it. (See my post from just a few minutes ago which has a link to a map I labeled.) --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 08 Jul 97 11:07:37 UT Subject: Re: Revised Baltimore Question Content-Length: 707 On 8 Jul 1997 britton@pit-magnus.com wrote: > Both Gunarson and the RNE article state that Union (later Penn) Station was > south of Calvert (an extension of the existing line). However, they note > that the distance between stations was only 8/10ths of a mile. Both Calvert > and Penn remained in use for locals, but the "big" trains all used Penn. > > There were three iterations of stations on the Penn site. Perhaps when the > most recent Penn was built, both Calvert and the old Penn were razed? I have a book at home called "Baltimore and it's Streetcars" which I seem to recall said the Calvert Station was razed for some other reason; I'll have to dig it out and find out. -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cmptrttr@bestweb.net Date: 08 Jul 97 13:06:22 UT Subject: Re: Bookstore at Strasburg RR Content-Length: 172 The Depot attice also has a location in Ardsley/Dobbs Ferry, NY. You must call and make an appointment to come in but it is run by the same people under the same roof. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 08 Jul 97 13:12:41 UT Subject: Re: Bookstore at Strasburg RR Content-Length: 476 From: cmptrttr@bestweb.net > The Depot attice also has a location in Ardsley/Dobbs Ferry, NY. You > must call and make an appointment to come in but it is run by the same > people under the same roof. Must be a big roof to cover both Strasburg and Ardsley/Dobbs Ferry!!! ;-) --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cmptrttr@bestweb.net Date: 08 Jul 97 13:59:28 UT Subject: Re: Bookstore at Strasburg RR Content-Length: 377 britton@pit-magnus.com wrote: > > From: cmptrttr@bestweb.net > > > The Depot attice also has a location in Ardsley/Dobbs Ferry, NY. You > > must call and make an appointment to come in but it is run by the same > > people under the same roof. > > Must be a big roof to cover both Strasburg and Ardsley/Dobbs Ferry!!! ;-) hey Im dumb leave my mistakes alone. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 08 Jul 97 14:55:05 UT Subject: Altoona Railfest 1997 Content-Length: 437 I haven't heard any official announcements about a 1997 Railfest event in Altoona, but the Penn State Model Railroad Club has the dates of 4 & 5 of October on their Web site (http://www.clubs.psu.edu/mrrc/events/index.html). Can anyone confirm? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: chaslett@camden.lmco.com Date: 08 Jul 97 15:29:41 UT Subject: Re: Altoona Railfest 1997 Content-Length: 462 Hello to all - Yes, Altoona's 3rd annual Railfest is slated for Oct 4 & 5 this year. The Railroaders Memorial Museum is working with Conrail, Norfolk Southern, and Amtrak for equipment displays. The Juniata Shops tour, first conducted last year, is also in the works, according to the latest Museum newsletter. Brochures available in the next few weeks. Also, info should soon be available, if not already, at www.railroadcity.com Carl Haslett !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 08 Jul 97 15:39:08 UT Subject: Re: Altoona Railfest 1997 Content-Length: 623 From: chaslett@camden.lmco.com > Yes, Altoona's 3rd annual Railfest is slated for Oct 4 & 5 this year. I'm packin'!!! Who's with me? Don't suppose there are any rooms left at the Station Inn in Cresson?! Really, though, I'm in the Harrisburg / York corridor. Anyone from the area want to pencil in a group trip? > Also, info should soon be available, if not already, at www.railroadcity.com Just checked. Nothing yet. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 08 Jul 97 17:28:58 UT Subject: Re: Altoona Railfest 1997 Content-Length: 450 On 8 Jul 1997 britton@pit-magnus.com wrote: > > From: chaslett@camden.lmco.com > > > Yes, Altoona's 3rd annual Railfest is slated for Oct 4 & 5 this year. > > I'm packin'!!! Who's with me? Don't suppose there are any rooms left at the > Station Inn in Cresson?! I'll be there one day or the other. Probably Sunday given that there's no way in hell I'll be done with my house by then and we tend to work Saturday nights... -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 08 Jul 97 19:12:37 UT Subject: Rails Northeast (was: Re: Red loco roofs and tender decks) Content-Length: 1075 From: KEMACPRR@aol.com > Jerry did you contact Charlie Horan from the Phila. chapter of the PRRT&HS he > has the remaining stock of RNE's and Penny Journals and if anyone would know > where Bob Reid is he would. Charlie's # is 215-586-5214 tell him I gave you > his name. Just got off the phone with him. First, his area code is now 610. Second, he hasn't spoken with Bob Reid in years. Last knew him to be in Pittsburgh area, but heard he may have moved to Denver. Third, reprints. Doesn't look good. Claims he (Charlie) bought the "rights" as well as the stock of back issues. Has quite an investment, so likely won't let us just scan them in and post them in Acrobat format. 8-( I can certainly understand his side, but it's a shame to have such a large collection of worthwhile information and no inexpensive way to share it. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: crts@postoffice.worldnet.att.net Date: 08 Jul 97 19:41:04 UT Subject: Re: Rails Northeast (was: Re: Red loco roofs and tender decks) Content-Length: 1206 Bob Reid became a minister and now lives in Kentucky. At 07:12 PM 7/8/97 +0000, you wrote: > >From: KEMACPRR@aol.com > >> Jerry did you contact Charlie Horan from the Phila. chapter of the PRRT&HS >he >> has the remaining stock of RNE's and Penny Journals and if anyone would >know >> where Bob Reid is he would. Charlie's # is 215-586-5214 tell him I gave >you >> his name. > >Just got off the phone with him. First, his area code is now 610. > >Second, he hasn't spoken with Bob Reid in years. Last knew him to be in >Pittsburgh area, but heard he may have moved to Denver. > >Third, reprints. Doesn't look good. Claims he (Charlie) bought the "rights" >as well as the stock of back issues. Has quite an investment, so likely >won't let us just scan them in and post them in Acrobat format. 8-( > >I can certainly understand his side, but it's a shame to have such a large >collection of worthwhile information and no inexpensive way to share it. >----------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton >"Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ >Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! >----------------------------------------------- > > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: 08 Jul 97 21:18:10 UT Subject: S1 Spec (was Route of S1 to World's Fair) Content-Length: 371 I was at the Red Caboose Lodge in Strasburg over the weekend and bought a copy of the September, 1939 issue of Railroad Magazine. It has a rather detailed specification for the S1 which I would be willing to post if their is any interest. Also the article indicated that it was lettered "American Railroads" while at the Fair, not Pennsylvania railroad. Harold !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 08 Jul 97 21:29:54 UT Subject: Trainphone in August Trains Magazine Content-Length: 193 Attention SPF's, Check out the article by James Alexander on Radio and Trainphone on pages 52-58 of the August 1997 Trains magazine. Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BowerPRR@aol.com Date: 08 Jul 97 22:34:45 UT Subject: Re: Pennsylvania Station-Baltimore Content-Length: 570 Gentlmen to assist in your search on data about the Pennsylvania Station-Baltimore the PRRT&HS "KEYSTONE" Spring 1995 issue has a first rate article. The publication provides the reader with a wealth of documentation on the history and physical plant on the station. Photographs and a 1912 track plan, plus a 1955 track chart support author Frank A. Wrabel's piece. Contact:PRRT&HS Business Office:PRRT&HS P.O. Box 389 Upper Darby, Pa. 19082 B.C.Bower !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rcnelson@bright.net Date: 08 Jul 97 22:44:24 UT Subject: Where's the PRR T&HS ? Content-Length: 179 Have tried to send mail to PRR T&HS via their web site and it returns. Also note that the last update listed is Sept. of 1996. Any info? Rick Nelson rcnelson@bright.net !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: dfresh20@erols.com Date: 08 Jul 97 22:45:07 UT Subject: Re: Revised Baltimore Question Content-Length: 457 Jerry, Take a look at the Keystone from Spring 1995. The vast majority of the issue was devoted to a history of Penn Station in Baltimore. Unfortunately, the avaliable maps in the article skip from arrangement of the lines and stations in 1911 (page 19) to a wider area map circa 1970 on page 61. Didn't pick through all the text to see what descriptions of changes there were between 1911 and 1970. Dave Freshwater North Potomac, MD !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org Date: 08 Jul 97 23:59:54 UT Subject: Re: Revised Baltimore Question Content-Length: 2582 Also in re: http://prr.dsop.com/maps/images/balt_penn_sta.gif > Both Gunarson and the RNE article state that Union (later Penn) Station was > south of Calvert (an extension of the existing line). However, they note > that the distance between stations was only 8/10ths of a mile. Both Calvert > and Penn remained in use for locals, but the "big" trains all used Penn. 8/10 mile is not very far, indeed. Yet, Calvert St. is east of the present Penn Station ... > There were three iterations of stations on the Penn site. Perhaps when the > most recent Penn was built, both Calvert and the old Penn were razed? > Photos show Calvert immediately southeast of B&P Junction. Penn would have > to then be almost on top of it. (See my post from just a few minutes ago > which has a link to a map I labeled.) Your map labels the B&P portal correctly. The tower is considerably east of what you way; I believe it was very near if not even east of Maryland Ave. The interlocking is l-o-n-g. Your "Union RR to harbor" is actually PW&B, and your PB&W cannot be so, but is PW&B. The page numbers below are from Burgess & Kennedy. Page 138 refers to "Calvert Street station" [capitalization thus] at the time of the Civil War. Pp. 141-2 mention the Canton Extension, never completed. P. 141 mentions the Union RR Co., organized 1866 to build a line from Relay on the NC [later Hollins] to the waterfront -- thus your Union RR may be correct ... The place of connection was later changed to Balto proper. P. 277 states the B&P was connected to the NC at "the new Union Depot" in July 873. P. 278 describes the Union RR line from the NC "new Union Depot on Charles St." to the PW&B at Bay View Jct. We now jump to p. 523 where it is mentioned that the old Union Depot was built in 1886, the new one in 1911. I saw at least 2 other references to "Calvert _Street_ station" [italics mine]. I am skeptical. I think the Calvert St station was close to Calvert St, i.e. 0.8 miles _east_, not west, of the (old) Union Depot. The only reference to the former station's location I found was "Charles St", which implies that it may well have been somewhat _west_ of the current Penna Stn. Remember, too, that the streets there were elevated at the time the present station was built. The older Union Depot could have been _west_ of Charles St, for all we know. A Calvert St. Station 0.8 miles east of Charles would place it between Calvert St and Guilford Ave, i.e., just before the wye where the Union RR started. -- Mark !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 09 Jul 97 01:29:15 UT Subject: steam loco colors: Russian Iron? Content-Length: 506 Hi Guys, As I'm on vacation, I'm going great guns on building my locomotives. I'm to the point of painting. Is this right: Dark locomotive color--boiler, firebox, cab and tender sides, black, pilot and everything else below the footboards, bottom of the tender and tender trucks, wierd shade of red, may or may not be freight car colot or freight car color mixed with black, cab roof, top of tender Russian Iron--smokebox My question: Does anyone make Russian Iron as a color?\ Tom V. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: 09 Jul 97 05:27:13 UT Subject: Re: Revised Baltimore Question Content-Length: 237 There was a great article in the Keystone (Spring 1995) which covered the various routes into Baltimore quite thoroughly and would, I believe, answer all the questions which have been raised so far in this thread. Rich Copeland !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: 09 Jul 97 05:27:46 UT Subject: New Freedom question Content-Length: 323 Just received a flyer called "Northern Central Notes". About 90% of it is dinner-train related. But they mention an upcoming railfan event (Aug 9,10) which will include track car rides on the line south from New Freedom. Could anyone tell me how far south they might go with these railcars? Rich Copeland !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rncamp@harford.campus.mci.net Date: 09 Jul 97 06:43:08 UT Subject: Re: Revised Baltimore Question Content-Length: 2406 Jerry ; Reguarding your question about the area between B&P and Union Junictions in Balitmore. This is the area where the present Penn Station stands. The wye at Union was a PRR Plant with the W M having rights on it. For your info one of the Calvert St. structures still stand and is know as the Downtown Athletic Club and where the old Baltimore Sun building now stands is the site of the passenger station. ---------- > From: britton@pit-magnus.com > To: Members of group > Subject: Revised Baltimore Question > Date: Tuesday, July 08, 1997 3:56 AM > > > No responses to my query yesterday about the Northern Central station in > Baltimore. Here's a revised question: > > The Northen Central initially terminated in Baltimore, at Calvert Station, > off the Jones Falls. When the B&P (Baltimore & Potomac) was created, it come > in and joined the NC just northwest of Calvert Station. Both lines entered > the station from the same (northwest) side. This junction was/is called B&P > Junction. > > When the link was made to the PB & W (Philadelphia, Baltimore and > Wilmington), a new Union Station (later renamed Penn Station) was created .8 > miles southeast of the existing Calvert Station (which remained in use). The > new station was a union station for the PB&W, B&P, NC, and Western Maryland. > > Rails Northeast, March 1979, and Gunnerson's book on the NC, describe the > connection between Calvert and the new Union Station as a wye. This was > known as Union Junction. There were passenger engine facilities, including a > turntable inside the wye. > > Of the three legs of the wye, one was obviously the joint NC/B&P line. I am > guessing that another was the Western Maryland and the third the PB&W -- > with the station on the PB&W leg. Is this correct? > > Or was one leg a joint PB&W/WM line with the station being on a stub leg of > the wye? > > Is the Union Junction to B&P Junction still active today as part of the > Northeast Corridor, or has it been bypassed? > > If I were southbound out of Calvert Station, bound for Union/Penn Station, > when I got to the wye, would I bear right or left? > --------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > Progressive Information Technologies > britton@pit-magnus.com > http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 09 Jul 97 07:01:14 UT Subject: Re: Revised Baltimore Question Content-Length: 646 Mark: Thanks for your long recap on the Baltimore situation. Plus, my apology about the location of Calvert. I discovered last night that the info in RNE was misleading. Gunnarson's map (p.31) shows Calvert and a description on later pages indicates where Union/Penn was built -- which matched the map I did yesterday. I'm going to locate that 1995 Keystone. It should hold what I am looking for. Again, thanks all! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 09 Jul 97 07:43:40 UT Subject: Re: New Freedom question Content-Length: 958 From: PRRMAN@aol.com > Just received a flyer called "Northern Central Notes". About > 90% of it is dinner-train related. But they mention an upcoming > railfan event (Aug 9,10) which will include track car rides on the > line south from New Freedom. > > Could anyone tell me how far south they might go with these > railcars? I plan on attending this event, probably on Saturday, as that is the only day of the Memorabilia Show. As for the rides, I thought they went north...the same route as the dinner train (which I highly recommend). Don't know how far south the tracks are intact. Trackage rights north go to within 2 miles of York. A contact of mine says they will have access all the way into York by the end of the summer. We'll see. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 09 Jul 97 07:50:18 UT Subject: Re: Revised Baltimore Question Content-Length: 1800 From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org > Your map labels the B&P portal correctly. The tower is considerably east of > what you way; I believe it was very near if not even east of Maryland Ave. > The interlocking is l-o-n-g. The interlocking may be l-o-n-g, but the Rails Northeast article contains a photo that is from a relatively close range. Looking west, the Northern Central line disappears under the North Street/Avenue Bridge to the right. The B&P portal is just to the east of this, with the tracks disappearing underground and going under North St. Towards the left side of the photo is B&P Junction tower. Left to right, the photo does not show more than 500 feet. > I am skeptical. I think the Calvert St station was close to Calvert St, > i.e. 0.8 miles _east_, not west, of the (old) Union Depot. The only > reference to the former station's location I found was "Charles St", > which implies that it may well have been somewhat _west_ of the current > Penna Stn. Remember, too, that the streets there were elevated at the > time the present station was built. The older Union Depot could have been > _west_ of Charles St, for all we know. A Calvert St. Station 0.8 miles > east of Charles would place it between Calvert St and Guilford Ave, i.e., > just before the wye where the Union RR started. Gunnarson's book has a map on page 31 which clearly shows the location of Calvert Station. Calvert Street ran north/south. The station was located at the intersection of Calvert and Fulton (east/west). This does place it in the range of 8/10 mile to the new Union/Penn Station. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 09 Jul 97 07:53:36 UT Subject: Re: Where's the PRR T&HS ? Content-Length: 808 From: rcnelson@bright.net > Have tried to send mail to PRR T&HS via their web site and it returns. > Also note that the last update listed is Sept. of 1996. Any info? That's what I've been asking for months! What bothers me more is that, as a Friend of the Railroad Museum (Strasburg, Pa.), I volunteered my time and Web server to set up an official site for the museum. I got a "thanks, no thanks" as the museum was purchasing its own computer to edit pages which were to be served from RRHISTORICAL.COM. That was months ago. Unfortunately, to "to be" editor was the same as that for the PRRT&HS pages! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bnixon@pop.pitt.edu Date: 09 Jul 97 08:21:39 UT Subject: PRR T&HS ? Content-Length: 360 Their site has unknown address for Pittsburgh Chapter - I don't have it handy, will post soon - another site has address, but it is from old newsletter editor. Bill Nixon Have tried to send mail to PRR T&HS via their web site and it returns. Also note that the last update listed is Sept. of 1996. Any info? Rick Nelson rcnelson@bright.net !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 09 Jul 97 09:06:26 UT Subject: RE: Baltimore Content-Length: 1014 I have a new map of Baltimore online. This one was created with a CD I have...StreetAtlasUSA. It is several years old, but since our "concern" is decades old, who cares! I believe all annotations to be correct on this one. Streets are named, providing confirmation via Gunnerson and other sources. Shown are Union Junction (not in detail--third side of wye is missing), Pennsylvania Station (between two identified road overpasses), B&P Junction tower (based on photo in Rails Northeast), B&P Tunnel Portal (same spot as previous map, going under North St.), and Mt. Vernon Engine Facility (based on photo in Gunnarson's book, taken from North St. overpass). The new URL is "http://prr.dsop.com/maps/images/baltimore.jpeg". However, the file is 390K, so I only recommend you peek if you are really interested. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 09 Jul 97 09:11:28 UT Subject: RE: steam loco colors: Russian Iron? Content-Length: 634 I believe the "Red Roof" scheme also called for the cab window frame to be red. regards Andy Miller >Hi Guys, > >As I'm on vacation, I'm going great guns on building my locomotives. I'm to >the point of painting. Is this right: > >Dark locomotive color--boiler, firebox, cab and tender sides, >black, pilot and everything else below the footboards, bottom of the tender >and tender trucks, >wierd shade of red, may or may not be freight car colot or freight car color >mixed with black, cab roof, top of tender >Russian Iron--smokebox > >My question: Does anyone make Russian Iron as a color?\ > >Tom V. > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: drm6@psu.edu Date: 09 Jul 97 09:42:26 UT Subject: Re: Altoona Railfest 1997 Content-Length: 752 Greetings to the group, Called the Museum this morning. Railfest is indeed scheduled for October 4 and 5. For details check out thier web site at http://www.railroadcity.com Details on Railfest 97 should be up soon. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 02:55 PM 7/8/97 UT, you wrote: > >I haven't heard any official announcements about a 1997 Railfest event in >Altoona, but the Penn State Model Railroad Club has the dates of 4 & 5 of >October on their Web site (http://www.clubs.psu.edu/mrrc/events/index.html). > >Can anyone confirm? >--------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator >Progressive Information Technologies >britton@pit-magnus.com >http://www.pit-magnus.com > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 09 Jul 97 10:18:36 UT Subject: Review: "Model Railroad Operations, Vol. I, Interchange" Content-Length: 2436 I had the opportunity to view another one of Digital Image Works (http://www.diwks.com) videos. This time, volume 1 of their Model Railroad Operations series. The topic: Interchange. The jacket reads: "Your hosts in this video are model railroad operators Jim Hertzog, Lehigh New England Railroad; Bill Gruber, Reading Lines; and Ken McCorry, Pennsylvania Railroad. These masters of OPERATIONS show how on and off line "Interchange" traffic is generated. You will follow specified cars across each layout as they are prototypically "interchanged" between model railroads. Hear each host explain realistic operations using car cards, crew assignments, Digital Command Control and dispatching. 40 minutes. All-color, graphics, narration, prototype sound. First, this is the coolest concept I have seen in model railroad videos. The obvious theme is realistic operations on a model railroad. Each of the three hosts describe their own waybill and operative systems. Been there, done that. What makes this video unique, is that it traces the progress of two units of cars from one model railroad to the next! We start with two covered cement hoppers at the east end of Jim Hertzog's Lehigh New England Railroad, and follow his train west to Tamaqua. We then go to Bill Gruber's Reading Lines (featured about a year ago in MR) and follow a westbound train underway in Phoenixville. We go through Pottstown and arrive in Reading where we pick up several limestone hoppers bound for points west. We then stop in Tamaqua and pick up the aforementioned cement hoppers. Here's where it's neat: Jim's engine, hoppers, and caboose are on Bill's layout! The interchange is made and the single consists heads west to Newberry Yard in Williamsport. We switch to viewing Bill's train on Ken McCorry's PRR. (Ken is a member of this list.) The cement gets interchanged to one PRR train and heads off to branch line to Renovo. The limestone goes to a BF16 led train west to "Port Allegheny" and its steel mill. The concept of this video is marvelous. It also gives us a view of three fine layouts. The video has been enhanced with some beautiful sound for super realism. This is one you can watch again and again! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 09 Jul 97 10:19:16 UT Subject: Passenger Update for Keystone Crossings (long) Content-Length: 4080 Jerry, Sorry to ahve taken so long to review the material you made available on your website. I have here some additional info you may wish to fold in. I am posting this publicly via PRR-Talk so that anyone with additions or corrections may jump in and make their mark. Missing primary classes: D70 Diners PS6L 6br-lounge cars (the entry you have labeled PS6) PS13 13 br (the entry you have labeled "County") PS31L prewar 3br-1dr-lounge cars (the entry you have labeled PS31) PS13L postwar 3br-1dr-lounge cars PS142 14 rmt-2dr Anacostia River, Hackensack River (built for the ACL pool) POC70 Prewar modernized coach observation POC85 Postwar coach observation PP85 29 seat Parlor Car (Budd built Congressional/Senator) PP5a 7 day dr parlor (Congo) Z85 Business car ex Anasheiser Busch car "Adolphus" Now a word about sub classes: I'm guessing that the class designations were assigned during the postwar re-equipping of the fleet. I base this on the fact the the primary designation (the one with no letter suffix) invariably went to the post war cars and that the prewar car was sub class "a". For example The postwar "Tower View" was POS21 while the Prewar "Skyline View" was POS21a. Following this assumption, I made some guesses as to class designations I could not find documented anywhere. B70 Baggage Cars B70s = Scenery Car D70 Dining Cars (give me some more time - anyone wand to help. These cars was rebuilt into many new types including the FOM Bway diner and several twin units) D78 Dining cars (ditto) PS6L postwar "(tree) FALLS" 6 br-louge cars PS6Lb prewar (why "b" instead of "a" ????) POS21 postwar 2 mastr rooms- 1 br obs "MOUNTAIN VIEW", and "TOWER VIEW" POS21a prewar 2 mastr rooms- 1 br obs "METROPOLITAN","SKYLINE","FEDERAL", and "WASHINGTON" "VIEW" POS211 postwar 2dr-1cmp-1br obs ALEXANDER JOHNSON CASSAT, WILLIAM WALLACE ATTERBURY FRANK THOMSON JAMES McCREA SAMUEL REA GEORGE BROOK ROBERTS POS211a prewar 2dr-1cmp-1br obs WILLIAM CHAMBERLAIN PATTERSON SAMUAL VAUGH MERRICK JOHN EDGAR THOMSON POC85 smooth-side coarch Jeffersonian obs POC85a Budd Congressi0onal parlor obs P85 coaches (from "PRR Rolling Stock Vol II - Coaches" by the staff of PC Railroader) P85a = Southwind P85b = Jeffersonian P85c = Pressed Steel Car Co experimental car # 4045 P85d = ACL pool P85e = SAL pool P85f = ACL pool P85h = Congressional/Senator P85k = Keystone P85l = converted POS21 P85m = converted ex N&W 10/6 D85 diners (from "PRR Rolling Stock Vol I - Diners" by the staff of PC Railroader) D85a = Budd Pisstburger, PennTexas, Golden Triangle D85c = dining room half of twin unit D85d = kitchen/dorm half of twin D85d = kitchen/tavern half of twin unit (for Congo) (why is this a duplicate???) D85ed = Lunch Counter car (for Congo) A word on assignmnets D82, P82 = Southwind PLC85 = Jeffersonian - entertainment car PL85R = Senator (I think the "R" is redundant - it meant "air conditioned", and like the "s" for superheated in stema locos, was eventually dropped) That's all for now (whew!) BTW 1. You have one misprint - PS125 has 5 brs (of course) 2. The collection of HW sleepers you list is random. The PRR operated and acquired (in 1948) a large number of these of which the ones you list are just a (non-representitive) sample. I don't think the acquired Pullman HWs ever got class designations. I can't find any reference to them. 3. The Bachmann HW sleeper will probably NOT be a 12-1. The only hint showed a foto (of a painted brass car) of a single vestibule betterment; Either a 6-6 or an 8-5, I think. It is announced for Sept on Walthers webpage! regards Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 09 Jul 97 10:26:30 UT Subject: Review: "Model Railroad Operations: Helpers" Content-Length: 2136 Yeat another Digital Image Works (http://www.diwks.com) video review. This time Volume 2 of the Model Railroad Operations series: Helpers The jacket reads: "Ken McCorry's Pennsylvania Railroad, North Central Region is the setting for this video on the use of helper operations. This 35' x 80' model railroad realistically recreates the PRR from Northumberland, PA to Buffalo, NY. Ride McCorry's Digital Command Control railroad as you follow a 60-car loaded ore train over the 2.5% ruling grade of Keating Summit. Listen to the radio chatter as a trio of RS-3 snappers (helpers) couple up to the cabin and begin to shove tonnage over the mountain. Hear McCorry's own thoughts on learning operations from the prototype and applying it to his model railroad empire. This is big-time model railroading at its best. 40 minutes. All-color, graphics, narration, prototype sound." Again, Ken is a member of this list. This layout is superb. What blows my mind is its level of completeness...it wasn't started until 1992! As with the other operations video, the sound effects make this a video you can watch over and over again. Ken describes his operation: 8 cabs, 4 yardmasters, 2 helper crews, and 2 tower operators during an operating sessions. Tower operators don't see the tracks. A radio system keeps everyone in contact, and the radio "soundtrack" is included in the video, along with the superb sound effects provided by Digital Image Works. As stated, this video follows the transport of an ore train over Keating Summit. It has five units up front and four in the back (note that the jacket says three). The really neat feature of this video is that there are numerous sequences where you are "riding in one of the helper cabs" via a (very small) camera mounted on a car at the rear of the consist. This provides some wonderful views, including one where the train goes underneath a coaling tower! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 09 Jul 97 10:58:39 UT Subject: RE: Passenger Update for Keystone Crossings (long) Content-Length: 646 And now for the corrections to my horrid typing! I will ignore insignificant misspellings >PP5a 7 day dr parlor (Congo) should be "PP85a" > B70s = Scenery Car should be "B70a" > >POS211 postwar 2dr-1cmp-1br obs ALEXANDER JOHNSON CASSAT, > WILLIAM WALLACE ATTERBURY > FRANK THOMSON > JAMES McCREA > SAMUEL REA > GEORGE BROOK ROBERTS I forgot THOMAS ALEXANDER SCOTT (sorry Tom) And I complained about your ONE misprint!! >regards >Andy Miller > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bnsftulsa@aol.com Date: 09 Jul 97 11:08:35 UT Subject: Re: S1 Spec (was Route of S1 to World's Fair) Content-Length: 226 Some of the PRR steam engines returned from the Fair via the NH and NYC via Brewster and Maybrook. I have a copy of the NH notice regarding their movement around here somewhere. Dick Brundage Tulsa OK bnsftulsa@aol.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 09 Jul 97 11:10:21 UT Subject: Re: Passenger Update for Keystone Crossings Content-Length: 1697 My thanks to Andy for his extenive update. Right now I have numerous materials on loan from Dave Wartel (on the list) and Bill Lewis (not). My priority is to scan these in and return the originals ASAP so as to not wear out my welcome. Tonight, for instance, I have another mile-long Philadelphia Division track chart to scan in. (Wednesday is "Boys 'n' Toys" night!) When I return to my own "works", the passenger info will be my priority, followed by the Northern Central history, diesels, steam, then electrics. Regarding the organization of the passenger area... The existing table will list MAJOR CLASSES and will be further edited to make corrections and additions. When a user clicks on the Class link (not there yet) a page will come up specific to the class. This new will provide subclass info -- for instance B70 Baggage cars had subclasses for "scenery cars" and "horse cars", etc -- specifications, unit rosters w/links to photos, road numbers vs. car names vs. "universal" serial numbers, betterment and renumbering info, floor plans and profile drawings (when available), modeling information, etc. As these pages develop, I will solicit outside information. For my initial data, I have the PRRT&HS "Color Guide to Passenger Equipment", "PRR Color Guide to Freight & Passenger Equipment" (volume 2, forget the author offhand), and "Pullman Standard Volume 4: PRR" (on loan). There's a lot of data to enter, and it may take a while, but will be well worth it. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 09 Jul 97 11:47:02 UT Subject: Re: Passenger Update for Keystone Crossings Content-Length: 205 BTW Union Station Products makes car sides for the P85d, e, and f. as well as the PS fluted 10/6 for service on the ACL, and SAL and the 10/6 and 14/4 for the Southern trains regards Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 09 Jul 97 12:07:25 UT Subject: Model Power Sharks/Repowering Content-Length: 519 Anyone know of an existing powered unit in HO onto which a Model Power "Shark" body will fit? Walthers has lighted dummy "A" units available (again) in PRR paint. (Don't know if they are tuscan or brunswick -- only brunswick would be prototype due to the length of the unit -- passenger being longer to house the generator.) --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rond@efn.org Date: 09 Jul 97 12:31:38 UT Subject: Re: Model Power Sharks/Repowering Content-Length: 528 On 9 Jul 1997 britton@pit-magnus.com wrote: > > Anyone know of an existing powered unit in HO onto which a Model Power > "Shark" body will fit? Hi Jerry, etc.., In n-scale we use the Atlas RS3 and Model Power/Lifelike FA2 mechanisms to power the after-market RF16 shells available. The wheelbase is not exact, from what I've been told, but they look pretty good. Perhaps in HO the Atlas RS3 would be a good choice. If anyone makes a good FA mechanism in HO it might be a possible. Hope this helps, Ron. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 09 Jul 97 13:18:35 UT Subject: RE: Model Power Sharks/Repowering Content-Length: 1227 Jerry, Are these REALLY passenger sharks (BP20)?? I don't believe the original MP shark was overly long. I have a trio A-B-A running after more than 20 years. They still work and look lovely at the front of 50 hoppers. You may be confusing the sharks for the MP FA1.5. These were slightly long models of the Alco FA1s. They were made long so as to use the same mechanism that MP built for the Baldwins. But the length was correct for the sharks. Besides which, the BP20 were REALLY long. They were much longer than an E8. The freight sharks were the only PRR freight engines to ever be painted in 5-stripe BrunsXXXX, sorry, Dark Locomotive Enamel. regards Andy Miller >Anyone know of an existing powered unit in HO onto which a Model Power >"Shark" body will fit? > >Walthers has lighted dummy "A" units available (again) in PRR paint. (Don't >know if they are tuscan or brunswick -- only brunswick would be prototype >due to the length of the unit -- passenger being longer to house the >generator.) >--------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator >Progressive Information Technologies >britton@pit-magnus.com >http://www.pit-magnus.com > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 09 Jul 97 13:29:48 UT Subject: RE: Model Power Sharks/Repowering Content-Length: 1086 From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org > Are these REALLY passenger sharks (BP20)?? No! I can see from my earlier post how you were confused. My point was that the MP units were 1600 hp units (forget their model #'s). The Pennsy used the 1500 units as class BF15. If I recall, the MP units are "close enough". The Pennsy passenger units, class BP20, were 2000 hp and never modeled by anyone that I know of. My concern was, are the MP units (which are of the 1500/1600 hp variety) painted in tuscan or brunswick? If brunswick, it would pass as-is for BF15. If tuscan, it would need repainted because a BF15 would always be brunswick and a BP20 (much longer body) would always be tuscan. My guess is that ALL the MP units were painted for Pennsy freight service, aka brunswick, aka dark locomotive enamel. Just don't want to order and end up with tuscan units I must fuss with. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 09 Jul 97 13:34:52 UT Subject: RE: Model Power Sharks/Repowering Content-Length: 230 Jerry, Please disregard my last post. I thought you said you would paint them Tuscan because of the length :-( Green is great - red is wrong. regards Andy Did I get through this post to you without any miztaykes? !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 09 Jul 97 13:55:02 UT Subject: RE: Model Power Sharks Content-Length: 731 The ad says "Just Do It" so I did...ordered two of them. Worry about power later, since I don't even have a layout to run them on! Walther's seems to think they will be getting (from somewhere) more powered "A" units in NYC. If that ever proves true, I'd probably buy a pair and switch shells. If not, I'll let the units sit in the fueling racks at my engine facility until I find a powered unit I can drop the shells onto. Imagine I'll at least need to renumber one of the units...what's the chance I'll get two different numbers?! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 09 Jul 97 14:11:03 UT Subject: RE: Model Power Sharks Content-Length: 412 >The ad says "Just Do It" so I did...ordered two of them. Worry about power >later, since I don't even have a layout to run them on! > >Jerry Britton - ----- You can't even run them as dummies with some other engine since Baldwins had a unique MU system and couldn't MU with anything else! How about coupling them on the rear of a freight and calling them "snappers"?? regards Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 09 Jul 97 14:25:23 UT Subject: Re: Model Power Sharks Content-Length: 1221 > Imagine I'll at least need to renumber one of the units...what's the chance > I'll get two different numbers?! There's one number. It's wrong. It's the same number as on their F-2A (not FA-2) because it's the same paint "stencil" if you will. It's also Tuscan so it's wrong anyhow. > My point was that the MP units were 1600 hp units (forget their model #'s). > The Pennsy used the 1500 units as class BF15. If I recall, the MP units are > "close enough". The MP's are RF16's. The Pennsy also had RF16's. The DR-4-4-1500 had a longer nose than the RF16's and so the MP shark is not accurate for those. I also recall doing some looking to see about repowering; Let me check tonight and see what I had come up with. > Walther's seems to think they will be getting (from somewhere) more powered > "A" units in NYC. If that ever proves true, I'd probably buy a pair and > switch shells. If not, I'll let the units sit in the fueling racks at my > engine facility until I find a powered unit I can drop the shells onto. You get to repaint the shell anyhow if you want it accurate; The NYC scheme is IMO easier to paint over so might as well just get those first time around. -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 09 Jul 97 14:49:42 UT Subject: New Proto 200 HO diesels Content-Length: 301 Among the first release of Proto 2000 GP-9's: PRR #7160, #7221 w/dynamic brake And also the next group of E-7's: Pennsylvania #5860A, #5863A, #5856B, #5862B The E's will be Tuscan 5-stripe. I (hopefully) put in a reservation for an E-7A, and E-7B, a GP-9, and a E&C GP-9 this AM. -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: drm6@psu.edu Date: 09 Jul 97 15:27:14 UT Subject: Ore Trains on Keating Summit? was Re: Review: "Model Railroad Content-Length: 1308 A question for Jerry, Ken and the group, I thought the ore trains ran loaded from Erie to Emporium then to Lock Haven, Williamsport and Northumberlund before being handed off for final delivery. This would not have routed them over Keating Summit. Did the South American ore that came in through Philly, travel north from Emporium to Buffalo? I had thought this ore went east on the Main Line and did not make it on to the Buffalo Line. I am planning to model the Buffalo Line from Lock Haven to at least Williamsport and possibly to Milton. Is your layout written up in any of the magazines Ken? Jerry, thanks for the reviews of the video. These seem to be a must have. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 10:26 AM 7/9/97 UT, you wrote: > >Yeat another Digital Image Works (http://www.diwks.com) video review. This >time Volume 2 of the Model Railroad Operations series: Helpers stuff removed >As stated, this video follows the transport of an ore train over Keating >Summit. It has five units up front and four in the back (note that the >jacket says three). > stuff removed >--------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator >Progressive Information Technologies >britton@pit-magnus.com >http://www.pit-magnus.com > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cupper@ibm.net Date: 09 Jul 97 16:15:41 UT Subject: Re: Ore Trains on Keating Summit? Content-Length: 976 > I thought the ore trains ran loaded from Erie to Emporium then to > Lock Haven, Williamsport and Northumberland before being handed off > for final delivery. Drew, so far as I know, you're 100% correct. In Clarence Weaver's beautiful 16mm film "The Ore Train," now available as a videotape from Penn Valley Pictures, the opening shot shows docks at *Erie,* not Buffalo (although PRR did serve ore docks in Buffalo, too, so it's entirely possible that ore did move over Keating at some point). While a PRR route did extend from Pittsburgh to Buffalo (crossing the P&E at Corry), any train that would have been diverted that way, then turned south down the WNY&P to Emporium Jct., would add 103 miles to its trip, compared to a straight shot over the P&E from Erie to Emporium Jct., then on to the other points you named en route to the Lehigh Valley RR and the Bethlehem Steel mills at Bethlehem, Pa. Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Psalm 27:8 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mxb13@psu.edu Date: 09 Jul 97 16:25:51 UT Subject: Re: Ore Trains on Keating Summit? Content-Length: 468 >> I thought the ore trains ran loaded from Erie to Emporium then to >> Lock Haven, Williamsport and Northumberland before being handed off >> for final delivery. > > >Drew, so far as I know, you're 100% correct. Yes, but was not Venezuelan ore brought in to Phila beginning in the mid 1950s, and did not the PRR ship some of that north to Beth steel's Lackawanna works via Keating Summit? I can't document this, I'm just raising the question. Mike !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: 09 Jul 97 17:14:48 UT Subject: Re: Model Power Sharks/Repowering Content-Length: 160 If you've got the original Model Power drives remotoring with a Holland can will give you a really good running unit. The Model Power drive isn't that bad. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 09 Jul 97 17:41:15 UT Subject: prr-diesels.ter Content-Length: 257 Well, after another set of suggestions I've started working on the PRR diesels in HO scale page again; Take a look at the table which is slowly usurping http://www.dementia.org/~shadow/prr-diesels.html Comments welcomed/encouraged... Thanks -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cupper@ibm.net Date: 09 Jul 97 17:51:40 UT Subject: Re: Ore Trains on Keating Summit? Content-Length: 627 > Was not Venezuelan ore brought in to Phila beginning in the > mid 1950s, and did not the PRR ship some of that north to Beth > steel's Lackawanna works via Keating Summit? I can't document this, > I'm just raising the question. > > Mike Could be, Mike. PRR gave oodles of publicity to that $9 million ore dock (Pier 124) in South Philly, but in all the articles in The Pennsy and all the copy generated for annual reports, the company focused almost exclusively on where the ore *came from,* leaving its specific destination up to the imagination of readers. Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Psalm 27:8 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: robs@protocol.zycad.com Date: 09 Jul 97 18:16:14 UT Subject: available decals list... Content-Length: 300 Hi all, I'm working on a list of available PRR decals at http://www.internexus.net~/robs/PRR (only HO scale so far) It's pretty complete. Check it out and let me know what I've missed! (Does anyone have a Clover House catalog & want to type in the missing PRR sets for me?!!!!!!!) Rob !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 09 Jul 97 19:53:55 UT Subject: Re: Where's the PRR T&HS ? Content-Length: 569 Apparently whoever put the PRRT&HS page on the web is not maintaining it. The PRRT&HS does not have an official presence on the web. You must rely on snail mail to the PRRT&HS Business Office at PO Box 389, Upper Darby, PA 19082 If you can't correspond by snail mail, you will never reach the Society. Remember the PRRT&HS is descended from the trainphone group who disdained radios. To the best of my knowledge none of the officers hae e-mail. It is my understanding that the web page was created by a member of the Philadelphia chapter. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 09 Jul 97 20:00:30 UT Subject: Re: steam loco colors: Russian Iron? Content-Length: 1714 In a message dated 97-07-09 17:55:08 EDT, you write: << I believe the "Red Roof" scheme also called for the cab window frame to be red. regards Andy Miller >Hi Guys, > >As I'm on vacation, I'm going great guns on building my locomotives. I'm to >the point of painting. Is this right: > >Dark locomotive color--boiler, firebox, cab and tender sides, >black, pilot and everything else below the footboards, bottom of the tender >and tender trucks, >wierd shade of red, may or may not be freight car colot or freight car color >mixed with black, cab roof, top of tender >Russian Iron--smokebox > >My question: Does anyone make Russian Iron as a color?\ > >Tom V. > > The cab windows were painted red, orange, or gold depending on the class of locomotive and the time frame. The "red" roof and tender deck specification called for a 50-50 mix of freight car color and black (remember this is the orangish pre '52 freight car color. I use a 50-50 mix of black and zinc chromate primer.) PRR specification for the firebox and smoke box were 55 gals. of oil and ?? lbs of powdered aluminium. Because of the heat paint would not adhere to the firebox or smoke box. The theory was that the powdered aluminium would melt in the oil and burn itself onto the surface. I do not recall the specified pounds of aluminium per 55 gals. of oil. However, since the various shop foremen had their own preference dull to very bright shinny surfaces, the amount of aluminium varried with the shop. You can use any combination of silver, black, gun metal, aluminium that makes you happy. The only other alternative is to match a color photo. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bnixon@pop.pitt.edu Date: 09 Jul 97 22:21:35 UT Subject: Pittsburgh Chapter PRR T&HS Content-Length: 686 Pittsburgh Chapter NRHS has no "official" mailing address - editor is Pennsylvania Limited,)Don Coulter) 444 Eleanor St., Pitcairn, PA 15140, that is return address on the newsletter. President is Carl P. Izzo, 2245 Manordale Dr., Export, PA 15632 Their last meeting was May 16th, no meetings in summer. They start up Sept. 19th, Oct. 17 and Nov 21, at Good Shepherd Lutheran Church in Monroeville PA, just off the Turnpike exit. They are working on a Volume II to the Pittsburgh black and white photo book (Vol. 1) which has gone to 2nd printing. I saw some of the choices they had to make of some of the photos for Volume 2, and it will be a knockout. Bill Nixon !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: railpix@philly.infi.net Date: 10 Jul 97 00:13:33 UT Subject: RAILPIX-SITE-UPDATE Content-Length: 1348 -- Hello all stations; I have added the following new images to my Railpix Site; Old PRR Bristol Pa. station Amtrak-935 passing a stopped Septa Local Amtrak track equipment PRR GG1-4859 at Harrisburg Pa. Amtrak X-2000 wide angle lens side shot Amtrak Cab Control Car 9643 on an Atlantic City train Conrail caboose #24028 Amtrak-933 on the curve at Frankford Jct. Phila. Pa. New on the Railpix Railcard Page; PRR Atlantic City ad A GP-7 diagram An ad to be a Railway Postal Clerk Please enjoy !! Stan *********************************************************** -----STAN'S RAILPIX---------- Railroad Photo Gallery http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/1030/railpix.html ****************************************************** ---New Free RAILPIX RAILCARD Page----- ---{Send Free RailCards}--- http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/1030/cards.html *************************************** Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel, is a train coming the other way. *********************************************************** !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: 10 Jul 97 01:10:40 UT Subject: Re: Ore Trains on Keating Summit? Content-Length: 351 The ore train in the video was one destined for the Lackawanna Works of Bethlehem Steel located in Buffalo NY. While the majority of ore used in this plant came from the Missabe via lake boats some did come in from Venezula when that supply became available. The ore from Venezuela was a higher % than what was available from the Missabe range. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: 10 Jul 97 01:22:16 UT Subject: Re: Model Power Sharks/Repowering Content-Length: 1035 There are two options to repower MP sharks when the original drive can't be used. A Life-Like FA chassis will give you an almost correct wheelbase chassis ( a little short) with the correct sideframes. Use the MP fuel tank casting and fabricate some body mounts out of styrene mounted to the inside of the shark body to utilize the original FA mounts. Another method I've used is the Stewart F-unit drive. Replace the sideframes with the AAR /GE sideframes they are available seperately from Stewart. Body mounts can be fabricated from styrene to clip on the bottom edge of the Stewart chassis. I've repowered two ABF-18's this way so they can mu with my EMD's and Alco's. The Life-Like method would be cheaper and probably more available. Also on the Life-Like chassis the weight has to be modified to fit the curvature of the shark. hope this helps. By the way has anyone seen the BP-20's that were suppossed to be made by LBF aka Fred Becker aka Front Range.I haven't heard anything since the original adds were run. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hosam@gc.net Date: 10 Jul 97 07:06:37 UT Subject: Re: Model Power Sharks/Repowering Content-Length: 1381 At 12:07 PM 7/9/97 UT, you wrote: > >Anyone know of an existing powered unit in HO onto which a Model Power >"Shark" body will fit? > Greetings, I have used the Athearn F7 superpower chassis in the Model Power bodies with great sucess. When the Model Power chassis is removed the fuel tank goes with it. I use a Zona saw and slice the outside(detailed)part from the fuel tank. This part is thinned to about 1/16" and then spliced onto the lower body, use some .010 thick plastic as a joint reinforcement. I filed off the "ear" on the Athearn chassis and drilled and tapped holes on each side for a 2-56 bolt. Run these in to these tapped holes (with superglue). When cured shorten the bolts to a length to just protrude thru the attached fuel tank. Drill holes to match the protruding bolts, slip the chassis in and viola! you now have a complete unit. Apply the usual tune up to the Athearn chassis. I must confess that my Sharks are NYC units, so this may not work on PRR units . Am in the process of building an A-B-A set of Sharks for the PRR, can I be forgiven? Oh yes, one other thing is the side frames on the trucks. Can use Athearns GE U-Boat sideframes or if superdetail is your thing, slice the sideframes off the Model Power units and attach to the Athearn trucks. Let me know how you come out. Thanks HOSAM !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BowerPRR@aol.com Date: 10 Jul 97 08:13:45 UT Subject: Re: Ore Trains on Keating Summit? Content-Length: 1750 To help clarify the ORE TRAINS ON KEATING SUMMIT on the Digital Image Works HELPER video of Ken McCorry's PRR HO Buffalo Line. Mr. MCCorry has developed traffic on his model railroad that does NOT follow the true traffic patterns of the PRR for the era. Mr. McCorry's Buffalo Line, as he describes in the video, has steel mill traffic: i.e. coal, ore , coke, limestone, scrap, empty cars in, loaded finished product out running across the modeled portion of his railroad. With his keen interest in the steel industry, he has Bethlehem Steel traffic, generated at the Bethlehem, Pa. facility(real world), on line with the LV interchange at Mt. Carmel, Pa. with the PRR(modeled on his layout) for destinations to his fictitious LEHIGH STEEL PLANT at Port Alleghaney, Pa.(modeled on the layout); and to the Beth Steel Lackawanna plant in Buffalo, NY.(north end staging and in the real world). Both of these steel plants get regular shipments of ORE from PIER 124 Greenwich yard Philadelphia(real world, south end staging). The PRR used the Pier 124 facility to import offshore ore and export domestic coal. Mr. MCCorry's philosophy on model railroading has blended embellished fact and true historical fact to make operating his PRR Buffalo Line as prototypically correct as any model railroader could want. When Digital Image Works produced these tapes on Model Railroad Operations we found Mr. McCorry and his peers in operations having the best vision as to how modelers can achieve functional operations. His work and accomplishmnets speaks for itself. Perhaps Mr. McCorry could provide additional comments about his work. How about it Ken? Cheers Brad C. Bower/Producer Digital Image Works. www.diwks.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 10 Jul 97 08:39:53 UT Subject: Re: Model Power Sharks/Repowering Content-Length: 344 > By the way has anyone seen the BP-20's that were > suppossed to be made by LBF aka Fred Becker aka Front Range.I haven't heard > anything since the original adds were run. I reserved a set thru Central Hobby in East Syracuse last year; I haven't heard any new news on them since March or so (when he was working on the nose) -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 10 Jul 97 09:14:29 UT Subject: RE: available decals list... Content-Length: 535 Rob, 1. Your URL fails to connect. 2. I have a C/H catalog and If I remeber, I will look at it this week end. As I recall they have dry transfers for HW passenger cars and steam locos. regards Andy Miller >Hi all, > >I'm working on a list of available PRR decals at http://www.internexus.net~/robs/PRR (only HO scale so >far) > >It's pretty complete. Check it out and let me know what I've missed! >(Does anyone have a Clover House catalog & want to type in the missing PRR sets for me?!!!!!!!) > > >Rob > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 10 Jul 97 09:19:17 UT Subject: Need Help Dating Divisional Map Content-Length: 1799 Last night I scaned (over 80 scans, actually) a complete set of Philadelphia Division track charts -- mainline and branches. As is typical, the cover of each section of charts reads "Correct To:" followed by a blank box where the "owner" is to write in the date. This set of charts was never dated. Furthermore, I cannot find any date references anywhere on the charts themselves! Except for the cover, which was exposed, these charts are in immaculate condition...still bright blue (blueprints). The following characteristics may be helpful in approximating its date: 1) PRE 1964 : Chart is Philly Division and includes the Cumberland Valley Branch and Northern Central lines. As of the Jan. 1, 1964 track chart, these were both in the Harrisburg Division. 2) POST 1945: Along the Northern Central line (which I am most familiar with) are a lot of small towns that had small combo passenger / freight depots. These were denoted as a split rectangle with a "P" in one side and an "F" in the other. In the 1945 charts, both are present at most locations. In this chart, the "P" has been "whited out" prior to printing at almost all sites. Passenger service had been discontinued. 3) Each section of track includes the name of the track supervisors. If anyone knows the tenure of any supervisors for any section of track, that may be useful in isolating the time period somewhat. 4) What other "major" changes in trackage occured between 1945 and 1964 that might close the date gap? I won't be able to review responses vs. the charts until this evening. Thanks for the help. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: dennis@bbn.com Date: 10 Jul 97 09:20:52 UT Subject: Re: available decals list... Content-Length: 150 On 10 Jul, asmiller@mail11.mitre.org wrote: > 1. Your URL fails to connect. Swap the ~/ to /~ http://www.internexus.net~/robs/PRR Dennis !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 10 Jul 97 10:17:14 UT Subject: Re: Model Power Sharks/Repowering Content-Length: 214 In a message dated 97-07-09 21:48:59 EDT, you write: << Anyone know of an existing powered unit in HO onto which a Model Power "Shark" body will fit? >> Hobbytown universal drive will fit. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: robs@protocol.zycad.com Date: 10 Jul 97 10:50:38 UT Subject: Re: available decals list... Content-Length: 691 Andy, OOPS! That's why I never became a typist! try.. http://www.internexus.net/~robs/PRR ... works much better! Rob >Rob, > >1. Your URL fails to connect. >2. I have a C/H catalog and If I remeber, I will look at it this week end. As I recall they have dry transfers for HW passenger cars and steam locos. > >regards >Andy Miller > >>Hi all, >> >>I'm working on a list of available PRR decals at http://www.internexus.net~/robs/PRR (only HO scale so >>far) >> >>It's pretty complete. Check it out and let me know what I've missed! >>(Does anyone have a Clover House catalog & want to type in the missing PRR sets for me?!!!!!!!) >> >> >>Rob >> >> !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BowerPRR@aol.com Date: 10 Jul 97 12:22:31 UT Subject: Re: Review: "Philadelphia Terminal Division" Content-Length: 1885 In response to the "Philadelphia Terminal Divison" review inquiry. Digital Image Works, I'm sorry to say has no additional footage from the PRR Newtown Square or Cardington Branches. We, however, are always looking for film on the PRR, from any and all regions to produce. Our data on both those branches, and the research data on all our PRR videos comes from the PRRT&HS "Keystone" and Philadelphia Chapter "Highline" publications as well as from former company employees. Both publications have back issues available for purchase, but it seems requesting data or material via E-Mail does not work. The trusted method of wrtiing and mailing by hand works very well with them. In my own opinion, we as the future gate keepers of the faith on the history of the Pennsyvania Railroad, or any of our nations railroads, must encourage the historic societies to take a more proactive stance in supporting the cyber-interested rail-historian. I'm a member of both the National and Phila. Chapter of the PRRT&HS, I've attended Phila. Chapter meetings and the Natioanl conventions and have expressed to the elected powers to be the critical need for supporting the electronic side of the shop. At best, they are trying, but need additional help to make it happen. This is not a plug, but if written interest is directed to the PRRT&HS groups stating there is a need for them to support the very large electronic audience out here ,things may change. Sign-up as a member have a say on how YOUR historic society functions. Then membership may grow and the great wealth of historic data will continue to serve ALL Pennsylvania Railroad rail-historians. Write on! Philadelphia Chapter, PRRT&HS P.O. Box 663 Wayne, Pa. 19087-0663 National Chapter, PRRT&HS P.O. Box 389 Upper Darby, Pa. 19082 Brad C. Bower/Producer Digital Image Works www.DIWKS.COM !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BowerPRR@aol.com Date: 10 Jul 97 12:38:53 UT Subject: RE:Newtown Square & Cardington Branches Content-Length: 306 Inquiry on data for the Newtown Square and Cardington Branches. The Winter 1986-87 issue of the Phila. Chapter PRRT&HS "THE HIGH LINE'" the total publication dedicated to the two branches. This a very detailed article by members Phil Klaus and Robert L. Penrose, worthwhile reading. B.C.Bower !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 10 Jul 97 13:03:37 UT Subject: Re: Ore Trains on Keating Summit? Content-Length: 1003 From: BowerPRR@aol.com > The March-April 1960 issue of "The Pennsy", rear cover page PRR advertisement > states the 850 foor-long ore pier on the Delaware River. Unloads red ore at > 500 feet per minute into awaiting hopper cars for direct movement to > America's inland steel centers. >...Brought to Philadelphia on ships from farway lands...Brazil, Venezuela, > Labraador, Liberia, Norway, Sweden, the Middle East...the ore feeds the mills > that supply a steel dependent nation.... The 1957 Grif Teller calendar painting "Vital Links to World Trade" (http://prr.dsop.com/art/images/1957.jpeg) featured the "ore dock and unloading facilities at Pier 122, South Philadelphia, Milepost 7", according to Cupper's book "Crossroads of Commerce". I always assumed the ore was being exported, however. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 10 Jul 97 13:54:55 UT Subject: Anyone Have This Book? Content-Length: 553 Anyone have this book: 14.unk82-80831: Noen (A.) and Company, inc. Baltimore. Pennsylvania railroad - Philadelphia, Baltimore and Washington railroad - map showing tracks and stations in Baltimore, January 1915. Baltimore, A. Noen and Co, 19S15. col. map 42 x 56 cm. Got the reference from Rob's site at: http://www.internexus.net/~robs/prrbooks.html --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: 10 Jul 97 15:09:10 UT Subject: Re: Ore Trains on Keating Summit? was Re: Review: "Model Railroad Content-Length: 1610 << I thought the ore trains ran loaded from Erie to Emporium then to Lock Haven, Williamsport and Northumberlund before being handed off for final delivery. This would not have routed them over Keating Summit. Did the South American ore that came in through Philly, travel north from Emporium to Buffalo? I had thought this ore went east on the Main Line and did not make it on to the Buffalo Line. >> You're correct the trains you're referring to were destined for Bethlehem Steel in Bethlehem Pa. via the Lehigh Valley interchange at Mt. Carmel. These trains lasted until 1958-1959 when the Beth's new ore facility at Johanna Pa.on the Reading's Wilmington & Northern Br. opened and replaced the Missabe ore. I believe the majority of the import ore from Pier 124 in Philadelphia was destined for the US Steel sintering operation in Saxonburg Pa. on the B&LE. Some did find it's way to the Lackawanna Plant in Buffalo I'm not sure how much or for how long but once I determined that some did go there the traffic was introduced to the layout. The railroad was featured in the March 1994 issue of Railmodel Journal. The railroad was only 18 months old at the time the pictures were taken so a lot has chsince then. The trackplan in the article was a rought draft done by me and not cleaned up by the publisher with the exception of the removal of several interlockings that make it look like a railroad to nowhere in several places. Model Railroader should be running an article either late this year or early next year which will show progress made since the RMJ article. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 10 Jul 97 15:23:07 UT Subject: Re: Ore Trains on Keating Summit? was Re: Review: "Model Railroad Content-Length: 466 From: KEMACPRR@aol.com > The trackplan in the article was a rought draft done by me... Any chance of getting a track plan to me for posting with your layout blurb on "Keystone Crossings"? You can get me an electronic file, or I can scan from a hard copy you provide. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JDPanza@aol.com Date: 10 Jul 97 16:38:35 UT Subject: PRR Conemaugh Mainline Relocation Content-Length: 333 Does anyone know of a good source of information for the Conemaugh Mainline relocation project at the Conemaugh Dam site? The relocation was between Saltsburg, PA and Salina, PA. Part of the project involved the building of Truxall tower and a mainline coaling station nearby. Any information would be greatly appreciated. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cupper@ibm.net Date: 10 Jul 97 17:21:14 UT Subject: Re: PRR Conemaugh Mainline Relocation Content-Length: 563 > Does anyone know of a good source of information for the Conemaugh > Mainline relocation project at the Conemaugh Dam site? The > relocation was between Saltsburg, PA and Salina, PA. Part of the > project involved the building of Truxall tower and a mainline > coaling station nearby. Any information would be greatly > appreciated. Jim, It's not easy to find, but the February 1947 issue of Mutual Magazine contains a nine-page article on this project, including a map and lots of photos. Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Psalm 27:8 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rncamp@harford.campus.mci.net Date: 10 Jul 97 19:53:46 UT Subject: Re: Passenger Update for Keystone Crossings Content-Length: 1123 >From ; ncampbell@iname.com >To ; Members of the group > Subject; Re. Passenger Update for Keystone Crossing >Date : July 10,1997 >Just some additions to the cars availble from Union Station Products >Plan 7457a Pre-War Coach for Southern service. >Plan 4140 ,10-6 Fluted for Southern service. >Plan4156 , 21 Roomette Flordia Trains >Plan 9006,14-2 ACF car for Flordia Trains >Plan4130, 12-4 Duplex smoothside for general service >Lastly a Twin Dinner unit from ACF are ready at this time >Mark Meeks of USP will produce any car that plans or both side photos can be used to produce. >Also one of the mid-train lounges is due next. Falls or Colonial ? >Cheers Neil >ncampbell@iname.com ---------- > From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org > To: Members of group > Subject: Re: Passenger Update for Keystone Crossings > Date: Wednesday, July 09, 1997 7:47 AM > > BTW > > Union Station Products makes car sides for the P85d, e, and f. as well as the PS fluted 10/6 for service on the ACL, and SAL and the 10/6 and 14/4 for the Southern trains > > regards > Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: 11 Jul 97 02:05:42 UT Subject: Re: Need Help Dating Divisional Map Content-Length: 344 Jerry see how many tracks are shown between Paoli and Glen on the main . Up till 1961 there were 4 after 1961 there were 3. This was the first track reduction on the east end that I know of at least on the main.Just west of Paoli was the break point for the Phila. Terminal Div. and the Phila. Division at that point in time I believe. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 11 Jul 97 06:44:24 UT Subject: Re: Need Help Dating Divisional Map Content-Length: 1362 From: KEMACPRR@aol.com > Jerry see how many tracks are shown between Paoli and Glen on the main . Up > till 1961 there were 4 after 1961 there were 3. This was the first track > reduction on the east end that I know of at least on the main.Just west of > Paoli was the break point for the Phila. Terminal Div. and the Phila. > Division at that point in time I believe. >From Phila. Terminal Division line (MP 21.x) westward there are four tracks shown. Also, the Northern Central from Cly south to where it meets the Maryland/Balt. Division (Wago Jct.) is double tracked. According to Rails Northeast, the second track was removed circa 1961. Both of these facts tend to place these charts pre-1961. (There are already placed post-1945.) Other tidbits: Marysville: Still shows water tower in "Marysville Yard" though no yard trackage is shown. Passenger depot out of service. Cly: Siding between A&S and Northern Central shows "6 cars". In 1945 it was "8 cars". Passenger depot out of service. Columbia: Still shows bridge to York. (This was removed in 1964ish, so it doesn't help, only confirms period.) ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVPedro@aol.com Date: 11 Jul 97 07:55:30 UT Subject: ORE Trains Content-Length: 352 All of the talk about Ore Trains, reminds me of the old Great Northern electrics which PRR purchased in the 50's to pull Ore trains out of Phila. I remember these 10 motors were numbered 1 to 10 and ran at a max speed of 25 MPH while pulling Ore drags up the Phila. Main Line with a pusher on the rear. Who else remembers these motors? Pete !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 11 Jul 97 08:39:59 UT Subject: Public vs. Employee Timetable Content-Length: 348 Listmaster has a Newbie Question : What's the difference between a Public and an Employee Timetable? I have many of the former...What all's in the latter? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 11 Jul 97 09:02:32 UT Subject: RE: Public vs. Employee Timetable Content-Length: 1563 >Listmaster has a Newbie Question : > >What's the difference between a Public and an Employee Timetable? > >I have many of the former...What all's in the latter? >--------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, Jerry, The basic answer is LOTS! The official definition of a "station" is any identified place on the RR whose passing is to be noted by trains. Some of these "stations" also have facilities for passengers; but it is not necessary. For example, all towers, yard limits, etc are "stations". I mention this because the employees timetable list ALL stations and the time each scheduled train (including scheduled freights) passes each one. It begins with a list of stations listing the distance to the nearest tenth of a mile for each one from the "region post", or the zero mile mark for thre region, branch, or division. This table will include all branches and secondary tracks, including those with no scheduled service. That table alone is worth the price of admission! But wait, there's more! The second part of the ETT lists all the rules unique to the particular division or region. Such details as clearances, and when to turn on the heat 3hen leaving Penn Station, and where to find the local hospital, and the length of each siding, etc ,etc. But don't call yet! You also get a list of all motive power and the tonnage they are allowed to handle on each segment of the RR, in each direction. Operators are standing by. GET YOURSELF AN EMPLOYEE'S TIMETABLE NOW! regards Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org Date: 11 Jul 97 10:34:55 UT Subject: Re: Public vs. Employee Timetable Content-Length: 1670 > Listmaster has a Newbie Question : > > What's the difference between a Public and an Employee Timetable? > > I have many of the former...What all's in the latter? Lots of stuff. I personally collect the latter, as I consider the former to be massively overpriced given what they contain. However, the railroadiana-collecting public relates more to the former, and as goes demand (up), so goes price (also up). The Employee Timetable is more properly called the Employee Timetable and Special Instructions. A list of topic headings of a PRRish ETT are listed on my web page http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Signal/ett_struct_ex.html To summarize, there is extensive information about each line in the division, stations(*), mileposts, speeds, rules of operation, restrictions, etc. Actually, what you see there nowadays, the stuff I just listed, is really the SI section of the book. What's "missing" is an actual timetable. This goes back to the olden days when your _authority_ to operate was the timetable of where you are to appear when. I.e. what station at what time. All you needed was you, your crew, your trains, your flags and marker lights, and a timetable entry. No Form D, no train order, no vertical row of 3 fog-piercing yellow lights was needed. The simple fact you had a schedule was all you needed. Nowadays, only the Amtrak NEC ETT-SI has anything approaching a timetable, and that timetable has no authority. This happens to be a specific interest of mine (operations; signals; rules; etc.) and I have the skeleton of a FAQ on my site: http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Signal/faq.html -- Mark !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: djwartel@ix.netcom.com Date: 11 Jul 97 10:42:06 UT Subject: Re: Public vs. Employee Timetable Content-Length: 690 >Listmaster has a Newbie Question : > >What's the difference between a Public and an Employee Timetable? > >I have many of the former...What all's in the latter? >--------------------------------------------- Probably the best way to describe the differences is that the Public timetable just lists the arrival and departure times for trains, while the Employee Timetable also has special instructions needed for the employees to run the trains. These include details about signaling, switches, interlockings, speed restrictions, etc. They are quite interesting and have information that can be useful for modeling operations. Dave Wartell djwartel@ix.netcom.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 11 Jul 97 10:54:35 UT Subject: Model Power Sharks as PRR modles Content-Length: 1087 The model power model can be used for either the BF15a or BF16 class of locomotive. The PRR had both 1500 and 1600 hp sharks. The MP does not have the correct nose for the BF15. The BF15a were the last 1500 hp sharks in the new body hence the subclass "a". the BF15 has never been produced in plastic or brass to my knowledge. None of the three classes BF15, BF15a, of BF16 were ever painted Tuscan. These are strictly freignt locomotives. The class designation also would indicate this. PRR diesel classes are: the manufacture "B" for Baldwin. type of service "F" - freight, "P" passenger, "FP" dual. "H" helper; horsepower in hundreds 15 = 1500 hp. Body modifications were indicated by the small "a" etc. an "m" indicated MU equiped (dropped when all new purchases were so equipped) and an "s" steam generator equipped. Only "P", "FP" and a lone RS-3 if memory serves me correctly were painted Tuscan. Note not all "FP" were Tuscan only the first six FP-7s delivered (4 FP-7"A" units and 2 F-7B with steam generators) were painted Tuscan. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: robs@protocol.zycad.com Date: 11 Jul 97 11:24:54 UT Subject: Re: Model Power Sharks as PRR modles Content-Length: 1384 >The model power model can be used for either the BF15a or BF16 class of >locomotive. The PRR had both 1500 and 1600 hp sharks. The MP does not have >the correct nose for the BF15. The BF15a were the last 1500 hp sharks in the >new body hence the subclass "a". the BF15 has never been produced in plastic >or brass to my knowledge. > >None of the three classes BF15, BF15a, of BF16 were ever painted Tuscan. > These are strictly freignt locomotives. The class designation also would >indicate this. PRR diesel classes are: the manufacture "B" for Baldwin. >type of service "F" - freight, "P" passenger, "FP" dual. "H" helper; >horsepower in hundreds 15 = 1500 hp. Body modifications were indicated by >the small "a" etc. an "m" indicated MU equiped (dropped when all new >purchases were so equipped) and an "s" steam generator equipped. >Only "P", "FP" and a lone RS-3 if memory serves me correctly were painted >Tuscan. Note not all "FP" were Tuscan only the first six FP-7s delivered (4 >FP-7"A" units and 2 F-7B with steam generators) were painted Tuscan. > >Rich Orr There's also a photo of a Baldwin switcher in Don Ball's PRR 40's & 50's book in Tuscan. Don't know the class of the unit off the top of my head but I don't think it's a BPxx. Gotta love exceptions! Do you have a photo of the Tuscan RS3??? I'd love to see it! Rob !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: drm6@psu.edu Date: 11 Jul 97 11:35:05 UT Subject: Thanks was Re: Ore Trains on Keating Summit? Content-Length: 334 Greetings to the group, I would like to thank everyone who provided input to my "Ore Trains on Keating Summit" question. I now know that ore may have and probably did run north over the Buffalo Line. It's nice to have such a great group of folks to converse with about PRR operational details. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 11 Jul 97 11:41:08 UT Subject: Re: Model Power Sharks as PRR modles Content-Length: 259 > There's also a photo of a Baldwin switcher in Don Ball's PRR 40's & 50's book in Tuscan. Don't know the > class of the unit off the top of my head but I don't think it's a BPxx. Gotta love exceptions! I wanna say it was 5912, from memory -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: johncoop@microsoft.com Date: 11 Jul 97 13:03:50 UT Subject: ORE trains Content-Length: 571 According to _Pennsy Power II_, there were not 10 of the Great Northern electrics, but only 8. And the eighth one was not used, but was kept for parts. As an interesting note, these were the only PRR electrics that were required to have both pantographs up during normal operation. I wasn't aware of the 25 mph speed restriction, but it is not surprising that they were geared way down. The GN used them on Steven's Pass just east of Seattle where the grade is 2.2%. Electification extended about 20 miles west of the summit, and 10 miles to the east John !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 11 Jul 97 14:13:44 UT Subject: Re: Model Power Sharks as PRR modles Content-Length: 597 > > There's also a photo of a Baldwin switcher in Don Ball's PRR 40's & 50's > book in Tuscan. Don't know the > > class of the unit off the top of my head but I don't think it's a BPxx. > Gotta love exceptions! > > I wanna say it was 5912, from memory Nope. "PRR Diesel Locomotive Pictorial Volume 2" sez: "One oddity was the 5916, which was painted Tuscan red." 5916 was a VO-1000 delivered in 1943 which was painted that way because it originally worked passenger trains in Sunnyside yard, according to the book, and to the other place I've seen a picture of it. -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 11 Jul 97 14:18:01 UT Subject: Re: ORE trains Content-Length: 741 > According to _Pennsy Power II_, there were not 10 of the Great Northern > electrics, but only 8. And the eighth one was not used, but was kept > for parts. This was the one with FT-style noses applied after an accident. I have yet to see a picture of it, either in storage on PRR property or in service on GN. Anyone know where I might see a photo of it? > As an interesting note, these were the only PRR electrics > that were required to have both pantographs up during normal operation. They needed to make sure the motor-generators in them didn't get out of phase with the AC from the overhead in the event one pan bounced off the wire or hit a dead spot otherwise there could be flashovers and such:-( -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 11 Jul 97 14:24:06 UT Subject: NOVA TECH Plastics -- Erie Builts Content-Length: 814 A friend and I each order an A-B-B-A set of the Erie built shells from NOVA TECH. To say they were unacceptable would be a gross understatement. The shells were not square, side sheets were not parallel to each other, windows were not the same size let alone the correct size and there were numerous air holes in the sides. The shells appeared to have been cast as a solid block and then the interior milled out. The order was placed in early February. Charges appeared on my credit card within 3 days. One set was received in mid April. After seeing the quality, the second set was canceled and the first returned. It is now mid July and we have not seen our money. Would I do business with them ever again? NOOOOOOOO! Would I recommend them to amyone? Not in this lifetime. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 11 Jul 97 15:17:07 UT Subject: Thanks from the Listmaster Content-Length: 735 Was just pondering the recent talk of ore trains, tuscan freight engines, timetables, etc.... When I started this list (my first), I wasn't sure how well it'd go over and if it would even be successful at all. You have all made it succeed beyond my best expectations. There is a wealth of knowledge throughout the subsciber base...with subscribers so willing to share. Thank you all for making this a success! And now I'll wipe my eyes, blow my nose, get down off my soapbox, and go to State College for Arts Festival weekend. 8-) --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: trains@redrose.net Date: 11 Jul 97 20:40:20 UT Subject: Re: NOVA TECH Plastics -- Erie Builts Content-Length: 337 Rich, Last evening I went to one of the local shops, and he had the second casting of the Erie builts. They aren't bad, he also said that the first set were poorly made. He also sent back the first shipment. The set that he had were a little rough, there was a good deal of work needed to clean them up. Brian Brandt !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JDPanza@aol.com Date: 11 Jul 97 21:41:14 UT Subject: Re: Public vs. Employee Timetable Content-Length: 1070 As the PRR stated on the cover of its Employee Timetables: "FOR THE GOVERNMENT OF EMPLOYEES ONLY" An Employee Timetable tells virtually everything there is to know about a Region or Division so that crews could safely operative their trains. The contents of most PRR Employee Timetables I have include: Listing of stations, interlockings, sidings etc. for virtually all lines within the Region Ticket offices and hours of service US Mail works Arranged Freight Schedules Types of Highway Crossing Protection Location of bulletin boards, employee registers & standard clocks Overhead and side clearances Employees in charge of sidings Locations of electric lock switches, spring switches and non-interlocked railroad crossings at grade Special Instructions on handling trains Speed restrictions on curves Yard limits And much more.......... The above is an abreviated list of the subjects covered. They are a great source of information on the operation of a railroad at the time of their issuance. Swap meets are a good place to find them. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: lpmorgan@iquest.net Date: 11 Jul 97 21:46:21 UT Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 2574 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------398DF778870073829D9FC800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cupper@ibm.net wrote: SNIP > > - Mainline trackside vantage point in Cresson, near the railroad > bed-n-breakfast and across the tracks from the helper-locomotive > servicing area. > MORE SNIP > > Dan Cupper > > Romans 10:9 Okay! This thread done it! Dan and everyone else who has participated in this thread have gotten the juices flowing.My wife Phyllis and I will be celebrating our 29th anniversary Labor Day week-end and we had been discussing how to spend it in a way we would both enjoy. Now I need your help. I would like to learn more about the Bed & Breakfast or Motel at Cresson, or any other places to stay in the area with RailRoad views, RailRoad themes or other railroad connections. If anyone has any suggestions, send them in. I think other subscribers to this list may be interested as well. What can I say! We decided to head to this wonderful sounding area. We have been to "the curve" once before, and saw some of the sites, but now we know of many more. Phyllis is smiling like the young girl who used to enjoy watching trains. Our one previous trip was a real highlight for her, even more than for me. She said "There is something about the trains going by so close and the sounds bouncing off the Mountains. I can really enjoy staying there and watching for a long time. " If you are at any of the sites mentioned in this "thread" over labor day week-end and see a 50 year old couple with PRR shirts, and the man with a PRR cap and a lot of cameras, come on over and say hello to Larry and Phyllis. We are a couple of PRR nuts. I count myself most fortunate to have a wife who really enjoys trains. I will send Jerry some JPEGS images from the trip, and let him see if any are worth posting. Maybe I will finally get around to creating my own home page as well. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS --------------398DF778870073829D9FC800 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Larry P. Morgan Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Larry P. Morgan n: ;Larry P. Morgan email;internet: lpmorgan@iquest.net x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE end: vcard --------------398DF778870073829D9FC800-- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jer@smellycat.com Date: 12 Jul 97 00:40:41 UT Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 1261 lpmorgan@iquest.net wrote: > Now I need your help. I would like to learn more about the Bed & > Breakfast or Motel at Cresson, or any other places to stay in the area > with RailRoad views, RailRoad themes or other railroad connections. The bed & breakfast at Cresson is called the Station Inn. Tom Davis is the innkeeper, and he's a really nice guy. You can contact the Inn at 814-886-4757, or 1-800-555-4757 for reservations. The rooms are clean and comfortable, and Tom provides a copy of the division timetable in the room for reference. There's also a scanner antenna hookup on the front porch, which is a nice place to sit and watch trains in the while drinking your morning coffee. I stayed there last October during the East Broad Top's Railfan Weekend, and I'll be going back to the EBT and the Station Inn for Railfan Weekend this year. Hope I get lucky again to ride cupola in the caboose during the night train again this year! :-) Later, -Jer -- Jerry W. Jordak The boxcars and flatbeds, whistle blowin' steam mailto:jer@smellycat.com That was yesterday http://prozac.cwru.edu/jer/ Now those big trains don't come anymore Acts 16:31 <>< -- Restless Heart, "Big Iron Horses" !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 12 Jul 97 09:21:42 UT Subject: Re: Model Power Sharks as PRR modles Content-Length: 524 In a message dated 97-07-11 23:57:11 EDT, you write: << Nope. "PRR Diesel Locomotive Pictorial Volume 2" sez: "One oddity was the 5916, which was painted Tuscan red." 5916 was a VO-1000 delivered in 1943 which was painted that way because it originally worked passenger trains in Sunnyside yard, according to the book, and to the other place I've seen a picture of it. >> OK Memory failed me again. This is the unit which I (gads) remembered to be an RS-3 and which I referenced in my post. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 12 Jul 97 09:32:45 UT Subject: PRR EMD, FP7 article Content-Length: 213 Anyone seen the article in the August 1997 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman on modeling Pennsy FP7's? There was some discussion on this earlier on the list. Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: 12 Jul 97 14:09:26 UT Subject: Columbia Visit Content-Length: 1604 After Horseshoe Curve and Strasburg I stopped at Columbia briefly to see the Depot and get the feel of the place. The Depot appears to be in good condition and is evidently owned by some industrial concern inasmuch as they have built there new building against the left and rear walls. Cola Tower appears to be in good shape but the windows are bricked up. The old freight building 2 blocks east is a very interesting structure but may be starting to deteriorate, it must be at least 120 years old. There are still vestages of a lot of the old track work in evidence for those who care to browse for them. I didn't realize the the piers of the old bridge were gone, a real disappointment. The town looks like the prototype for DPM models. I was looking at all of the through 1915 eyes because Columbia will be the focal point of my layout now under construction. Catenary poles are still in place minus the wire. I will be heading back to Columbia in early October armed with a plane table, mearsuring tapes and wheel, and a complete set of 7.5 minute topo maps for 2 days od extensive investigation. If any one is interested in joining me please let me know. I was pleasently suprised at the size of the Strasburg Railroad physical plant. Didn't have time to ride but will do that this fall. Had to leave Strasburg before the Museum opened on Sunday but i got plenty of photos of the outdoor exhibits. The GG1 is wonderful Does anyone know if you can get to Chickees (spelling? Rocks by land. Harold Modeling the PRR Columbia Branch (The Port Road) in 1915 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: 12 Jul 97 16:59:19 UT Subject: E-6s Atlantic - Lines West Content-Length: 831 Some time ago this board ws asked about "accurate numbers for variuos classes - lines west Altough all but one E-6 Atlantics were built for Lines East (5075 tested in the west and was renumbered 1067 when assingned to the East) SOME apparently migrated west following Electrification. ONE documented case is the story of E-6 # 1649 (originally built as 5224) assigned to the Detroit Arrow - Fort Wayne to Chicago in August of 1937. At the time this run was the world's fastest train - on a sustained schedule - according to "Apex of the Atlantics" it handled a 5 car train 148 miles at an average speed of 67.5 mph - including one stop. My question i s this: if ONE engine went west - there must have been more - anyone else have a record of E-6s used on "Lines West" ? Dick Ross Cleveland !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: 12 Jul 97 17:21:22 UT Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 513 In a message dated 97-07-11 22:37:34 EDT, Larry Morgan wrote: (SNIP) << If you are at any of the sites mentioned in this "thread" over labor day week-end and see a 50 year old couple with PRR shirts, and the man with a PRR cap and a lot of cameras, come on over and say hello to Larry and Phyllis. We are a couple of PRR nuts. I count myself most fortunate to have a wife who really enjoys trains. >> Everytime I've been there, its seems there were ten couples of a certain age with PRR shirts. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: 12 Jul 97 17:21:58 UT Subject: GN Motors on PRR (was Re: ORE trains) Content-Length: 1407 In a message dated 97-07-11 23:57:55 EDT, shadow@dementia.org wrote: > According to _Pennsy Power II_, there were not 10 of the Great Northern > electrics, but only 8. And the eighth one was not used, but was kept > for parts. This was the one with FT-style noses applied after an accident. I have yet to see a picture of it, either in storage on PRR property or in service on GN. Anyone know where I might see a photo of it? ===>Photo of unit with EMD noses fitted, in use, does, I believe, appear in Middleton's When the Steam Roads (Railroads?) Electrified, in GN section. > As an interesting note, these were the only PRR electrics > that were required to have both pantographs up during normal operation. They needed to make sure the motor-generators in them didn't get out of phase with the AC from the overhead in the event one pan bounced off the wire or hit a dead spot otherwise there could be flashovers and such:-( ===>I recall that units had two seperate and independent motor generator sets, each connected to a pantograph...no common connections internally. Anyway, the power was single-phase AC, so there was no "out of phase" to get (last phase sounds like Winston Churchhill). Bert Pennypacker put out a book a few years back on the use of these motors on the PRR: I'm out on the road as usual and away from my library. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TheWuk@aol.com Date: 12 Jul 97 18:00:00 UT Subject: RE: Public vs. Employee Timetable Content-Length: 950 An employee timetable has listings such as mileposts, Rules, Division names and information pertaining to each division (Such as Whistle laws, etc) also it has employee timetables for each division (Public timetables only list what time a train will stop at a station, Employee timetables list what time their train should pass a station regardless of whether or not the train stops there) There are more things than that but that is all that I can think of off of the top of my head. . . Regards, Robert A. Wukich New York City Electric Railroaders Association Member 6608 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [SMTP:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] Sent: 12 July, 1997 04:29 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Public vs. Employee Timetable Listmaster has a Newbie Question : What's the difference between a Public and an Employee Timetable? I have many of the former...What all's in the latter? !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cupper@ibm.net Date: 12 Jul 97 18:47:33 UT Subject: Re: Columbia Visit Content-Length: 635 > Does anyone know if you can get to Chickees (spelling? Rocks by > land. Harold: There are a couple of acceptable spellings of this name, such as Chiques and Chickies. Yes, you can hike in there from up top on Route 441 north of Columbia, but be careful and do it in clear, dry weather and in daylight. A number of people (some of them students who were taking part in midnight drinking parties) have fallen to their deaths from the cliffs. If you're referring to river (and railroad) level, can't advise on that for sure but I don't think there's any public access. Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Psalm 27:8 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 12 Jul 97 20:49:11 UT Subject: Re: E-6s Atlantic - Lines West Content-Length: 74 Pennsy Steam: A to T pg 41 1710 on 4/17/48 at Englewood, IL Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rncamp@harford.campus.mci.net Date: 12 Jul 97 21:33:44 UT Subject: Re; PASSENGER UPDATE FOR KEYSTONE CROSSING. Content-Length: 764 .. .> >From ; ncampbell@iname.com > >To ; Members of the group > > Subject; Re. Passenger Update for Keystone Crossing > >Date : July 10,1997 > > > >Just some additions to the cars availble from Union Station Products > >Plan 7457a Pre-War Coach for Southern service. > >Plan 4140 ,10-6 Fluted for Southern service. > >Plan4156 , 21 Roomette Flordia Trains > >Plan 9006,14-2 ACF car for Flordia Trains > >Plan4130, 12-4 Duplex smoothside for general service > >Lastly a Twin Dinner unit from ACF are ready at this time > >Mark Meeks of USP will produce any car that plans or both side photos can > be used to produce. > >Also one of the mid-train lounges is due next. Falls or Colonial ? > > > >Cheers Neil > >ncampbell@iname.com > . !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: trains@redrose.net Date: 13 Jul 97 08:17:59 UT Subject: Re: Columbia Visit Content-Length: 305 Harold, Please let me know when you are planning to be in Columbia again. I would like to try to meet you there. I like to sit there and watch them roll at night. The old station is perfect, sidewalk,, cover from rain, and the police there are usually railfan friendly. Brian Brandt !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BowerPRR@aol.com Date: 13 Jul 97 08:36:09 UT Subject: Re: Re; PASSENGER UPDATE FOR KEYSTONE CROSSING. Content-Length: 201 Neil Nice to see passenger equipment being addressed. Is there an EMail address to reach USP or a postal address to Mark Meeks. I'd like to get a catalog and pricing info. Cheers B.C.Bower !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 13 Jul 97 10:50:32 UT Subject: Re: Model Power Sharks as PRR modles Content-Length: 493 In a message dated 97-07-13 05:32:12 EDT, robs@protocol.zycad.com writes: << There's also a photo of a Baldwin switcher in Don Ball's PRR 40's & 50's book in Tuscan. Don't know the class of the unit off the top of my head but I don't think it's a BPxx. Gotta love exceptions! Do you have a photo of the Tuscan RS3??? I'd love to see it! >> My memory off the top of my head was faulty. The model was a VO1000 not an RS-3. This is the one in Don Ball's book. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bearpair@erols.com Date: 13 Jul 97 11:46:20 UT Subject: Odenton, Maryland Content-Length: 888 Anyone have, or know a source for, maps, track diagrams, etc. of the Odenton, Maryland area (MP 113.4 and surrounds)? I've seen things there over the years that I can't figure out (for example, a 2-1/2" pipe protruding from the ground near the switch to National Plastics and running parallel to the tracks, with a large steel tank approximately 2' in diameter by 2' tall in the line but now connected to nothing; a section of concrete block wall sticking out of the access road near the old control tower; and a cast concrete foundation - about two feet square and perfectly flat on top, with bolts on each corner- roughly a foot from, and in line with, a catenary support tower). If anyone knows anything about the area and its history, PLEASE let me know - I've been seeing this stuff for over 25 years and I STILL don't know what it is! Mike Calo Annapolis MD !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 13 Jul 97 15:59:28 UT Subject: What a find--"The Long Trains Roll"!!! Content-Length: 568 I have seen many references to a Nazi plot during WWII to take out the Horseshoe Curve. Supposedly, that set the stage for a "fictional" book by Stephen W. Meader called "The Long Trains Roll". I was just going through a box of old books -- not at all railroad related -- and found a copy, in very good condition, that was printed in 1944. Wow!!! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: lpmorgan@iquest.net Date: 13 Jul 97 16:07:16 UT Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 1397 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------BA59DFC1359C2D7A51321D30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BBReynolds@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 97-07-11 22:37:34 EDT, Larry Morgan wrote: > (SNIP) > << If you are at any of the sites mentioned in this "thread" over > labor day > week-end and see a 50 year old couple with PRR shirts, and the man > with > a PRR cap and a lot of cameras, come on over and say hello to Larry > and > Phyllis. We are a couple of PRR nuts. I count myself most fortunate > to > have a wife who really enjoys trains. > >> > Everytime I've been there, its seems there were ten couples of a > certain age > with PRR shirts. I guess you will have to watch for the cap, and the large amount of camera gear. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS --------------BA59DFC1359C2D7A51321D30 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Larry P. Morgan Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Larry P. Morgan n: ;Larry P. Morgan email;internet: lpmorgan@iquest.net x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE end: vcard --------------BA59DFC1359C2D7A51321D30-- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 13 Jul 97 18:08:19 UT Subject: Re: What a find--"The Long Trains Roll"!!! Content-Length: 812 In a message dated 97-07-13 16:08:01 EDT, you write: << I have seen many references to a Nazi plot during WWII to take out the Horseshoe Curve. Supposedly, that set the stage for a "fictional" book by Stephen W. Meader called "The Long Trains Roll". I was just going through a box of old books -- not at all railroad related -- and found a copy, in very good condition, that was printed in 1944. Wow!!! >> The Gallitzin Tunnels and the Hellsgate Bridge were on the list of targets reputedly carried by a group of German commandos apprehended shortly after a Nazi U-boat put them ashore on Long Island in 1943. The incident is widely reported on. I've found it in nearly book I've read about espionage and counterespionage during WWII and in books on the Battle of the Atlantic. Tom V. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rcnelson@bright.net Date: 13 Jul 97 22:37:12 UT Subject: PRR trucks (highway) Content-Length: 276 Does anyone know about or have pictures of any pick-up trucks used by the PRR...I hope to find a 1950 to 1965 pick-up to restore and would like to paint and letter it for the PRR ......this is a long term goal. Thanks, Rick Nelson, rcnelson@ bright.ent Luke 4-4 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rcnelson@bright.net Date: 13 Jul 97 22:43:44 UT Subject: PRR Pick-up trucks Content-Length: 255 Does anyone know about, or have pictures of, any pick-ups used by the PRR I have a long term goal of getting a 1950 to 1965 truck to restore and would like to paint and letter it for PRR. Thanks, Rick Nelson rcnelson@bright.net Luke 4:4 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: dfresh20@erols.com Date: 13 Jul 97 23:41:24 UT Subject: Re: PRR Pick-up trucks Content-Length: 491 rcnelson@bright.net wrote: > > Does anyone know about, or have pictures of, any pick-ups used by the PRR > > I have a long term goal of getting a 1950 to 1965 truck to restore and would > like to paint and letter it for PRR. > Rick, Check out pages 52 through 60, Summer 97, Keystone. Not only has the painting and letting diagrams, there are color shots of someone who has restored a 1950 Ford Pickup, although not exactly to specs. Dave Freshwater North Potomac, MD !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: 14 Jul 97 05:56:13 UT Subject: Re: available decals list... Content-Length: 94 Rob I have a No. 7 Cloverhouse Catalog and would be glad to help with the typing. Harold !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: harmanta@monroe.army.mil Date: 14 Jul 97 07:34:07 UT Subject: RE: PRR Pick-up trucks Content-Length: 1137 I saw a few Pennsy pick-ups and other light and medium duty utility vehicles on the property back in the 50's and 60's. Around Enola, those I saw were painted Pennsy Tuscan Red. The doors (both sides) had a red kestone edged in Dulux Gold with a circle around it. Just like the Keystone in a circle they used on thier BP-20 Passenger Sharks. No kidding. Andrew Harmantas, SPF from way back. > ---------- > From: dfresh20@erols.com[SMTP:dfresh20@erols.com] > Reply To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Sent: Sunday, July 13, 1997 7:41 PM > To: Members of group > Subject: Re: PRR Pick-up trucks > > rcnelson@bright.net wrote: > > > > Does anyone know about, or have pictures of, any pick-ups used by > the PRR > > > > I have a long term goal of getting a 1950 to 1965 truck to restore > and would > > like to paint and letter it for PRR. > > Rick, > > Check out pages 52 through 60, Summer 97, Keystone. Not only has the > painting and letting diagrams, there are color shots of someone who > has > restored a 1950 Ford Pickup, although not exactly to specs. > > Dave Freshwater > North Potomac, MD > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 14 Jul 97 07:48:52 UT Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 875 From: lpmorgan@iquest.net > Now I need your help. I would like to learn more about the Bed & > Breakfast or Motel at Cresson, ... I love when we can talk our wives into doing train stuff. Be forewarned -- maybe. I think the Station Inn, as it is called, is not air conditioned. If you go knowing that it is not, you'll do fine. However, arriving for an anniversary weekend and the wife finds out there's no A/C, well.... Also, I was told that most of the rooms are set up with three single beds...to cater to railfans. You may want to ask. Other than that, the Inn has a lot of charm. Great front porch full of rockers with a scanner. Couldn't ask for a better view! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 14 Jul 97 07:56:47 UT Subject: RE: Baltimore Content-Length: 769 I ordered the back issue of The Keystone (Spring 1995) which contains the article and track charts for Pennsylvania Station and area, Baltimore. However, quite by accident, I found a close up diagram of Penn Station in the Spring 1997 issue of The Keystone. It's in the article on electrification and is used as an example of catenary configuration. Doesn't show relation to B&P Junction (off the top of the diagram) or to Union Junction (off the bottom), but it does show the tracks through the station and the beginning of the coach yard on the east side of the station. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 14 Jul 97 08:08:58 UT Subject: CD-ROM Project Content-Length: 1682 I have several people (on this list) who are having difficulty downloading the larger (5MB+) Acrobat PDF files from my site. As a possible solution for these individuals -- and others who may express similar difficulty -- would anyone, especially the donors of the source material, mind if I offered these files on CD-ROM for around $30. A blank CD would cost around $8, and I would be paying about $10-15 per disk for writing. Shipping would be additional. The $30 would cover it all, with any "leftover" just going towards the cost of keeping "KC" on the air. For instance, a current CD would include: --track charts, Philadelphia Division, 1945 (incomplete) --track charts, Philadelphia Division, undated (THIS IS NOT YET POSTED) --track charts, Harrisburg Division, 1964 (incomplete) --Instructions for Snow Storms --CT1000E, 1923 --Form 109K (Classification of Locomotives) --Annual Report, 1946 --Book of Rules, 1951 --Freight Schedule, 1952 Besides helping those who cannot download these files, a CD might also be attractive to help keep one's hard drive clear. The aforementioned files take up about 60MB of space. A new edition of the CD could be created every six months or so, adding new files, up to a CD's capacity of 650MB. The CD would be in ISO-9660 format, which is usable by every major platform. What do ya think? And be honest; those not in favor are welcome to say so. I don't want this to be viewed as an attempt to commercialize "KC". --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 14 Jul 97 08:59:13 UT Subject: Re: PRR Pick-up trucks Content-Length: 762 In the Morningstar book "Color Guide to PRR Freight and Passenger Cars", there is a foto of a PRR gon (G26 I think) loaded with company trash. The highlite of which is a 1940's delivery van painted for PRR company service. regards Andy Miller >rcnelson@bright.net wrote: >> >> Does anyone know about, or have pictures of, any pick-ups used by the PRR >> >> I have a long term goal of getting a 1950 to 1965 truck to restore and would >> like to paint and letter it for PRR. >> Rick, > >Check out pages 52 through 60, Summer 97, Keystone. Not only has the >painting and letting diagrams, there are color shots of someone who has >restored a 1950 Ford Pickup, although not exactly to specs. > >Dave Freshwater >North Potomac, MD > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu Date: 14 Jul 97 09:06:10 UT Subject: Re: Review: "Model Railroad Operations: Helpers" Content-Length: 2164 Hi All, >Yeat another Digital Image Works (http://www.diwks.com) video review. This >time Volume 2 of the Model Railroad Operations series: Helpers >The really neat feature of this video is that there are numerous sequences >where you are "riding in one of the helper cabs" via a (very small) camera >mounted on a car at the rear of the consist. This provides some wonderful >views, including one where the train goes underneath a coaling tower! I hate to admit it, but I was REALLY disappointed by this video. I certainly didn't consider it in line with DIW prototype releases. Ken's layout is superb, and some of the shots in the video are outstanding, but I think this video fails almost completely in describing "helper operations" It follows only one train, it shows and discusses very little about how the helpers are actually run, there is almost none of the advetised "radio chatter" and what there is is not particularly helpful. IMHO there was also too much filler - mid train shots of ore cars. I think I learned one thing in the video - Ken makes the suggestion that all weight should be removed from the helpers to make them slippery. Sorry to be a wet blanket, but if you buy this video hoping to learn how to run helper operations on your layout, you will be disappointed. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** "I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!" "Evolution is a fact, get used to it" _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 14 Jul 97 11:25:35 UT Subject: Re: PRR trucks (highway) Content-Length: 283 See the current Summer 1997 edition of the PRR Keystone. There is an article about a member who did just that and a number of pictures. Also, an earlier Keystone carried an article on PRR vehicles. Can't recall which issue off the top of my head and I am at work. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: robs@protocol.zycad.com Date: 14 Jul 97 15:05:55 UT Subject: Re: CD-ROM Project Content-Length: 1127 Jerry, A CD of the larger files from you site seems like a good idea. Download time is painfully slow and the system here seems to time out after 30 minutes or so.... $30 seems a bit steep for a 60mb CD rom though. Based on your price structure, I'm guessing that you don't have a writer yourself and would be paying someone else to master the disks. A friend of mine has a CD ROM recorder and probably wouldn't mind making some disks up. Figure on $10-$15 post paid. If you're going with $30, why don't you wait until you've got some more to put on the disks.. I know that my friends CD rom writer supports "multisession" format disk which allow incremental writing to a disk, so it could be returned to have more info added as it becomes available but I don't know if older CD rom drives can read multisession disks. An alternate suggestion.. Why not break the PDF files into more managable chunks. The problem I get is that the connection times out. I'd guess that most people would probably have better luck downloading 10 1 Mb files than one 10Mb one. Just some thoughts.... Rob !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 14 Jul 97 15:27:00 UT Subject: Re: CD-ROM Project Content-Length: 1179 From: robs@protocol.zycad.com > A CD of the larger files from you site seems like a good idea. Download time is painfully slow and > the system here seems to time out after 30 minutes or so.... Don't know why this is happening, but can verify that it does. > $30 seems a bit steep for a 60mb CD rom though. ... Price would remain constant even as contents get to 650 MB. > If > you're going with $30, why don't you wait until you've got some more to put on the disks.. Some people want the data now. My guess is that only a few would buy now. Perhaps many more in six months. > I know that > my friends CD rom writer supports "multisession" format disk which allow incremental writing to a disk, so it > could be returned to have more > info added as it becomes available but I don't know if older CD rom drives can read multisession disks. Most older drives do not. In fact, some new drives don't! Very few 2X and earlier drives are MS capable. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk@aol.com Date: 14 Jul 97 15:29:58 UT Subject: Clarence Weaver Video #5 Content-Length: 201 Does anyone have volume 5 of the Clarence Weaver videos? This is the one about the Susquehanna division. Does it have any coverage of the Elmira branch, specifically trains bound for Sodus Point? !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: drm6@psu.edu Date: 14 Jul 97 15:34:37 UT Subject: Re: PRR Pick-up trucks and PRR Highway Trucks Content-Length: 449 Greetings to Rick and the group, I believe Pennsy Power III has a section on trucks used by the PRR. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 10:43 PM 7/13/97 UT, you wrote: >Does anyone know about, or have pictures of, any pick-ups used by the PRR > >I have a long term goal of getting a 1950 to 1965 truck to restore and would >like to paint and letter it for PRR. > >Thanks, > >Rick Nelson >rcnelson@bright.net > >Luke 4:4 > > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk@aol.com Date: 14 Jul 97 15:36:22 UT Subject: Re: CD-ROM Project Content-Length: 520 In a message dated 97-07-14 15:20:02 EDT, Rob wrote: << An alternate suggestion.. Why not break the PDF files into more managable chunks. The problem I get is that the connection times out. I'd guess that most people would probably have better luck downloading 10 1 Mb files than one 10Mb one. >> I agree with this idea. I think many people who access the CT1000E, for example, are only interested in a few pages. On the other hand, I don't know what you would do with the graphics. John Keel !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org Date: 14 Jul 97 16:24:41 UT Subject: Re: CD-ROM Project Content-Length: 348 > $30 seems a bit steep for a 60mb CD rom though. Just out of curiosity, what version of "CD" are we talking about? Just that the (re)writeable versions have a limited life - they are NOT limitless like the CDs you buy your music on. I've heard 15-20 years quoted for WORM, 20-30 for magneto-optical. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: robs@protocol.zycad.com Date: 14 Jul 97 16:55:35 UT Subject: Re: CD-ROM Project Content-Length: 198 Even if the recordable CD's only last 15 or so years, the CD format will probably be obsolete by then anyway. By then something faster and denser will probably have superceeded them... Rob !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cupper@ibm.net Date: 14 Jul 97 20:52:06 UT Subject: Re: Clarence Weaver Video #5 Content-Length: 705 > Does anyone have volume 5 of the Clarence Weaver videos? This is > the one about the Susquehanna division. Does it have any coverage > of the Elmira branch, specifically trains bound for Sodus Point? > The answer to your question is that most of the footage was shot within about 25 miles of Clarence Weaver's home, Sunbury. No specific coverage of the Elmira Branch, though some of the trains shown may have been bound to or from that branch. I wrote the script for this video and there were no notes to go on regarding train identifications, symbols, etc.; the only specifics available were locations and in some cases, engine numbers. Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Psalm 27:8 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: lpmorgan@iquest.net Date: 14 Jul 97 22:21:33 UT Subject: Re: What a find--"The Long Trains Roll"!!! Content-Length: 2030 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------847AE658F32C44D312410317 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit TVondruska@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 97-07-13 16:08:01 EDT, you write: > > << I have seen many references to a Nazi plot during WWII to take out > the > Horseshoe Curve. Supposedly, that set the stage for a "fictional" > book by > Stephen W. Meader called "The Long Trains Roll". > > I was just going through a box of old books -- not at all railroad > related > -- and found a copy, in very good condition, that was printed in > 1944. > Wow!!! >> > > The Gallitzin Tunnels and the Hellsgate Bridge were on the list of > targets > reputedly carried by a group of German commandos apprehended shortly > after a > Nazi U-boat put them ashore on Long Island in 1943. The incident is > widely > reported on. I've found it in nearly book I've read about espionage > and > counterespionage during WWII and in books on the Battle of the > Atlantic. > > Tom V. What may not be well know is there was a second landing, in Florida, with much the same goals. The second landing was totally unobserved. The FBI only learned about it from debriefing the Germans from the first landing. I read a nonfiction book about it way back in the early sixties. I can no longer recall the title or author. Perhaps some one else on this list has a better memmory. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS --------------847AE658F32C44D312410317 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Larry P. Morgan Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Larry P. Morgan n: ;Larry P. Morgan email;internet: lpmorgan@iquest.net x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE end: vcard --------------847AE658F32C44D312410317-- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: lpmorgan@iquest.net Date: 14 Jul 97 22:32:49 UT Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 2057 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7351121D6D040CB7FD42E8CE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit britton@pit-magnus.com wrote: > > From: lpmorgan@iquest.net > > > Now I need your help. I would like to learn more about the Bed & > > Breakfast or Motel at Cresson, ... > > I love when we can talk our wives into doing train stuff. > > Be forewarned -- maybe. I think the Station Inn, as it is called, is > not air > conditioned. If you go knowing that it is not, you'll do fine. > However, > arriving for an anniversary weekend and the wife finds out there's no > A/C, > well.... > > Also, I was told that most of the rooms are set up with three single > beds...to cater to railfans. You may want to ask. > > Other than that, the Inn has a lot of charm. Great front porch full of > rockers with a scanner. Couldn't ask for a better view! > --------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > Progressive Information Technologies > britton@pit-magnus.com > http://www.pit-magnus.com WOW! thanks for the tips Jerry. I will call ahead and know for sure about both of those items. Does anyone have other recommendations lodging recommendations for trips to Cresson and/or Horseshoe Curve? About talking my wife into doing train related things, I must count myself blessed. My wife trys to talk ME into doing MORE train related things. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS --------------7351121D6D040CB7FD42E8CE Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Larry P. Morgan Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Larry P. Morgan n: ;Larry P. Morgan email;internet: lpmorgan@iquest.net x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE end: vcard --------------7351121D6D040CB7FD42E8CE-- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: lpmorgan@iquest.net Date: 14 Jul 97 22:36:52 UT Subject: Re: CD-ROM Project Content-Length: 2732 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------ECE67C0FCC249032E676E9AA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit britton@pit-magnus.com wrote: > > I have several people (on this list) who are having difficulty > downloading > the larger (5MB+) Acrobat PDF files from my site. As a possible > solution for > these individuals -- and others who may express similar difficulty -- > would > anyone, especially the donors of the source material, mind if I > offered > these files on CD-ROM for around $30. > > A blank CD would cost around $8, and I would be paying about $10-15 > per disk > for writing. Shipping would be additional. The $30 would cover it all, > with > any "leftover" just going towards the cost of keeping "KC" on the air. > > For instance, a current CD would include: > --track charts, Philadelphia Division, 1945 (incomplete) > --track charts, Philadelphia Division, undated (THIS IS NOT YET > POSTED) > --track charts, Harrisburg Division, 1964 (incomplete) > --Instructions for Snow Storms > --CT1000E, 1923 > --Form 109K (Classification of Locomotives) > --Annual Report, 1946 > --Book of Rules, 1951 > --Freight Schedule, 1952 > > Besides helping those who cannot download these files, a CD might also > be > attractive to help keep one's hard drive clear. The aforementioned > files > take up about 60MB of space. > > A new edition of the CD could be created every six months or so, > adding new > files, up to a CD's capacity of 650MB. The CD would be in ISO-9660 > format, > which is usable by every major platform. > > What do ya think? And be honest; those not in favor are welcome to say > so. I > don't want this to be viewed as an attempt to commercialize "KC". > --------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > Progressive Information Technologies > britton@pit-magnus.com > http://www.pit-magnus.com If you think there are enough buyers for a project like this, GO FOR IT! I will send you a couple of JPEGS for the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum. To help things along. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS --------------ECE67C0FCC249032E676E9AA Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Larry P. Morgan Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Larry P. Morgan n: ;Larry P. Morgan email;internet: lpmorgan@iquest.net x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE end: vcard --------------ECE67C0FCC249032E676E9AA-- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 14 Jul 97 23:04:17 UT Subject: vcard.vcf Content-Length: 154 What was this file for that was attached to an e-mail post to PRR-Talk? vcard.vcf Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 15 Jul 97 07:06:01 UT Subject: FW: Northern Central Railway (New Freedom to York) Content-Length: 1069 Item below my signature is a forward. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ---------- From: "W.C. Knepper" To: Subject: Northern Central Railway (New Freedom to York) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 21:54:35 -0400 Hi Jerry, I am a member of the PRRT&HS and the Northern Central Chapter. Also I am a member of the York County Rail / Trail Authority......And we are preserving the line. At the present time the line is leased to ther NCR Dinner train. This month the New Freedom Station goes out for bids, for the restoration of the out side of the building. The building must come down and be completely rebuilt. We are in need of pictures of the station from 1900 - 1972. If anyone can help save a part of our history (PRR) please have them get in touch with me at: boxcar46@nfdc.net or wknepper@lucent.com Thanks W.Knepper !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 15 Jul 97 08:52:26 UT Subject: Last call for objections re: CD-ROM Project Content-Length: 859 I have gotten about a dozen positive responses about a CD of the larger files. I have received no negative responses, other than one post about the price. I will "close the response period" at 9 p.m. EST tonite. If there are still no objections (especially from donors), I will proceed. I would: -- Create a Web page announcing Version 1 of the CD and explain its contents and format (Acrobat Reader Installer will be included) -- Set an ordering deadline of July 31 -- Write the requisite number of CD's and ship by August 7 The long term plan would be to add to the CD's contents and create new versions every six months or so, if additions warrant so. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: geshick@velocity.net Date: 15 Jul 97 11:03:59 UT Subject: Bachmann web site Content-Length: 242 I just tried the Bachmann web site, & it is up and running. No details about current or future models yet, just descriptions of their product categories ... http://www.bachmanninc.com -- Jerry Shickler Erie, PA geshick@velocity.net !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: robs@protocol.zycad.com Date: 15 Jul 97 11:26:49 UT Subject: PRR Proto 2000 engines Content-Length: 1136 Can't remember if this has been posted, so here it is (again?) 433- 21116 PROTO2000 Diesel E-7A Powered -- PRR H $ 90.00 09/01/1997 #5860A Tuscan Red 5-Stripe without Mars Light 433- 21117 PROTO2000 Diesel E-7A Powered -- PRR H $ 90.00 09/01/1997 #5863A Tuscan Red 5-Stripe without Mars Light 433- 21118 PROTO2000 Diesel E-7A Dummy -- PRR H $ 45.00 09/01/1997 #5856B Tuscan Red 5-Stripe 433- 21119 PROTO2000 Diesel E-7A Dummy -- PRR H $ 45.00 09/01/1997 #5862B 433- 21643 PROTO 2000 Diesel GP9 Phase III Powered H $ 85.00 09/01/1997 -- PRR #7160 Brunswick Green, with Dynamic Brakes 433- 21644 PROTO 2000 Diesel GP9 Phase III Powered H $ 85.00 09/01/1997 -- PRR #7221 Brunswick Green, with Dynamic Brakes Rob !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 15 Jul 97 11:57:21 UT Subject: Re: PRR Proto 2000 engines Content-Length: 1941 From: robs@protocol.zycad.com >> 433- 21116 PROTO2000 Diesel E-7A Powered -- PRR H $ 90.00 09/01/1997 #5860A Tuscan Red 5-Stripe without Mars Light 433- 21117 PROTO2000 Diesel E-7A Powered -- PRR H $ 90.00 09/01/1997 #5863A Tuscan Red 5-Stripe without Mars Light 433- 21118 PROTO2000 Diesel E-7A Dummy -- PRR H $ 45.00 09/01/1997 #5856B Tuscan Red 5-Stripe 433- 21119 PROTO2000 Diesel E-7A Dummy -- PRR H $ 45.00 09/01/1997 #5862B 433- 21643 PROTO 2000 Diesel GP9 Phase III Powered H $ 85.00 09/01/1997 -- PRR #7160 Brunswick Green, with Dynamic Brakes 433- 21644 PROTO 2000 Diesel GP9 Phase III Powered H $ 85.00 09/01/1997 -- PRR #7221 Brunswick Green, with Dynamic Brakes >> I take it these are the listings from Walthers? Note the road numbers of the E-7A's...they end with "B". Are these really "A" units or are they "B" units? They (P2K) were supposed to offer "B" units. My guess is that by purchasing both powered units and both dummies, you would have an "ABBA" configuration. I don't have any P2K units yet...these will likely be my first. Any problem running one dummy between two powered units? Another lister member placed an advance order with Central Hobbyf Supply from New Jersey (where I got my Bowser K4). Do they have pricing yet? The Walthers (above, if that's what it is) is undoubtedly list price. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: robs@protocol.zycad.com Date: 15 Jul 97 12:25:32 UT Subject: Re: PRR Proto 2000 engines Content-Length: 467 > ... > 433- 21118 PROTO2000 Diesel E-7A Dummy -- PRR H $ 45.00 09/01/1997 > #5856B Tuscan Red 5-Stripe > 433- 21119 PROTO2000 Diesel E-7A Dummy -- PRR H $ 45.00 09/01/1997 > #5862B > ... > Rob Should these be E-7B ? -- Jerry Shickler Erie, PA geshick@velocity.net Gotta love Walthers. I just cut & pasted the info off their site w/o really examining it... It should be E7B.... Rob !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: trains@redrose.net Date: 15 Jul 97 12:50:05 UT Subject: Re: CD-ROM Project Content-Length: 208 Jerry, I for one would be interested in a cd with all the information. We are in the process of desigining a new layout for our club. We are trying to do it with a Pennsy flavor. Brian Brandt !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: dennis@bbn.com Date: 15 Jul 97 12:50:47 UT Subject: Re: PRR Proto 2000 engines Content-Length: 1045 On 15 Jul, britton@pit-magnus.com wrote: > Note the road numbers of the E-7A's...they end with "B". Are these really > "A" units or are they "B" units? Yes, the dummies are B units. If they continued the policy of earlier releases, you can just drop the B shell onto the A chassis and get a powered B unit. > I don't have any P2K units yet...these will likely be my first. Any problem > running one dummy between two powered units? In N Scale, I had to put gobs of weight in a dummy FB to keep it in the track. You have to add enough to keep it from being squeezed out like a watermelon seed... > Another lister member placed an advance order with Central Hobbyf Supply > from New Jersey (where I got my Bowser K4). Do they have pricing yet? The > Walthers (above, if that's what it is) is undoubtedly list price. Yes, Walther's always lists full price, and the Terminal Hobby Shop charges full list. This is intended to make it the shop of last resort, to avoid taking business away from local shops. Dennis !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mxb13@psu.edu Date: 15 Jul 97 13:08:50 UT Subject: BI & Truxall Content-Length: 351 BI and Truxall were interlockings on the Conemaugh main, east and west of Saltsburg, Pa., respectively. BI was at Blairsville, correct? Can anyone direct me to photos of towers at these sites, 1950s or later, published in the standard PRR picture books? (I don't have many back issues of Rails Northeast or the Keystone to use as reference.) !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 15 Jul 97 14:47:09 UT Subject: Re: BI & Truxall Content-Length: 617 In a message dated 97-07-15 13:34:24 EDT, you write: << BI and Truxall were interlockings on the Conemaugh main, east and west of Saltsburg, Pa., respectively. BI was at Blairsville, correct? Can anyone direct me to photos of towers at these sites, 1950s or later, published in the standard PRR picture books? (I don't have many back issues of Rails Northeast or the Keystone to use as reference.) >> I do not recall ever seeing published photos of these towers. You might want to contact the Indiana County Historical Society or Westmoreland County Historical Society about photos. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bnixon@pop.pitt.edu Date: 15 Jul 97 16:39:51 UT Subject: BI & Truxall Content-Length: 795 Try Rich Ballas of Pgh. Chapter PRRT&HS in Latrobe (412) 539-1464. He gots hundreds of tower shots. I will look in my listings and get back to you if I find any. Bill In a message dated 97-07-15 13:34:24 EDT, you write: << BI and Truxall were interlockings on the Conemaugh main, east and west of Saltsburg, Pa., respectively. BI was at Blairsville, correct? Can anyone direct me to photos of towers at these sites, 1950s or later, published in the standard PRR picture books? (I don't have many back issues of Rails Northeast or the Keystone to use as reference.) >> I do not recall ever seeing published photos of these towers. You might want to contact the Indiana County Historical Society or Westmoreland County Historical Society about photos. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rncamp@harford.campus.mci.net Date: 15 Jul 97 17:29:13 UT Subject: Re: PRR Proto 2000 engines Content-Length: 1871 >From ncampbell@iname >Subject E-7 from Life Like >Date; July 15,1997 5:23pm >Anyone know if these engine will be offered in the latter model, the ones with the three small intake vents ahead of the engine compartment door and the extra intake along the top of the sie in the rear. >Also, about what date did this change occur for productin locos and when did the older units get the change . My example is the unit at Strasburg, being the second of the origional pair it has the latter side . THANK NEIL C. ---------- > From: robs@protocol.zycad.com > To: Members of group > Subject: PRR Proto 2000 engines > Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 7:26 AM > > Can't remember if this has been posted, so here it is (again?) > > 433- 21116 PROTO2000 Diesel E-7A Powered -- PRR H $ 90.00 09/01/1997 > #5860A Tuscan Red 5-Stripe without Mars > Light > 433- 21117 PROTO2000 Diesel E-7A Powered -- PRR H $ 90.00 09/01/1997 > #5863A Tuscan Red 5-Stripe without Mars > Light > 433- 21118 PROTO2000 Diesel E-7A Dummy -- PRR H $ 45.00 09/01/1997 > #5856B Tuscan Red 5-Stripe > 433- 21119 PROTO2000 Diesel E-7A Dummy -- PRR H $ 45.00 09/01/1997 > #5862B > 433- 21643 PROTO 2000 Diesel GP9 Phase III Powered H $ 85.00 09/01/1997 > -- PRR #7160 Brunswick Green, with > Dynamic Brakes > 433- 21644 PROTO 2000 Diesel GP9 Phase III Powered H $ 85.00 09/01/1997 > -- PRR #7221 Brunswick Green, with > Dynamic Brakes > > Rob !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 16 Jul 97 09:33:55 UT Subject: CD Project is a "GO" Content-Length: 720 I will be proceeding with the CD project. Hopefully I will get a Web page done this evening about it. I will announce when the page is ready, which will contain content and ordering info. The disk will be in ISO-9660 format, so it should be usable by UNIX, Wintel, and Macintosh systems. It will also include current installers for Adobe Acrobat Reader. The ordering deadline will be July 31, 1997 for "Volume 1". I will have the complete contents staged by that time and plan to write and ship all orders within a week. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rhensley@ecicnet.org Date: 16 Jul 97 23:40:08 UT Subject: Auction, books Content-Length: 6441 F. RR BOOKS RR01 "Pocket Guide to American Locomotives," by W.A. Lucas, Simmonds Boardman., 1953 RR02 "A Century of Locomotives 1855-1955, New South Wales Railways,, 1855-1955," by The Australian Railway Society, 1955. RR03 "Cavalcade of New Zeland Locomotives," by A.N. Palmer and W.W. Stewart, RR04 "Locomotives and Trains of Kansas City Southern Louisana & Arkansas Railways," by A.E. Brown RR05 "Popular Picture and Plan Book of Railroad Cars and Locomotives," by Walter A. Lucas, 1951 RR06 "Little Railways of the World," by Frederick Shaw, 1958. RR07 "Train Wrecks," by Robert C. Reed, Bonanza Books RR08 "Monon The Hooser Line," by Dolzal, Interurban Press. RR09 "Monon the Hooser Route," by George W. Hilton, Howell-North Books RR10 "Pensy Power." by Alvin F. Stauffer RR11 "Pensy Power II," by Alvin F. Stauffer and Bert Pennypacker. RR12 "Pensy Power III," by Alvin F. Stauffer. RR13 "THe Pennsylvania Railroad, 1940's-1950's," by Don Ball Jr., Elm Tree Books. RR14 "The Growth and Development of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, 1846-1926, by H.W. Schotter, 1927. RR15 "Centennial History of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, 1846-1946," by Burgerr and Kennedy, 1949. RR16 "Trains in Transition, by Lucius Beebe, Bonanza Books. RR17 "Steam Locomotives of the Burlington Route," by Corbin and Kerka, First Edition. RR18 "Rails Under the Mighty Hudson," by Cudahy, Stephen Greene Press. RR19 "Highball, A Pagent of Trains," by Lucius Beebe, Appleton Century RR20 "On the Main Line - The Pennsylvania Railroad in the 19th Century," by Edwin P. Alexander, Bramhal House. RR21 "Highliners - A Railroad Album," by Lucius Beebe, Bonanza Books. RR22 "The Wreck of the Penn Central," by Daughten and Binzen. RR23 "Railways in the Transistion From Steam," O.S. Nock RR24 "Handbook of American Railroads," by Robert G. Lewis RR25 "Train Wreck," by Wesley S. Griswold, Steven Greene Press, 1969. RR26 "Louisville & Nashville Railroad, 1850-1963," by Kincaid A. Herr RR27 "Erie Power," by Frederick Westing RR28 ""B&O Power 1829-1964," by Lawrence Sagle RR29 "Great Trains of the World," by Wyatt Blassingame. RR30 "Steam Trains of the Soo," by Leslie V. Suprey RR31 "A Picture History of B&O Motive Power," by Lawrence W. Sagle, Simmons Boardman Publishing. RR32 "Model Railroader Cyclopedia 1944," Kalmback Publishing RR33 "American Locomotives," A Pictorial History of Steam Power 1900-1950, by Edwin P. Alexzander. RR34 "The Pennsylvania Railroad - A Pictoral History," by Edwin Alexander, W.W. Norton Company. RR35 "I Remember Pennsy," by Don Wood RR36 "Pennst Steam and Semaphores, by Fred Westing RR37 "Ride by the River, Visit the past on America's largest two-foot gauge railroad, " by Cornwall and Farrell. RR38 "Narrow Gauge to Central and Silver Plume: Colorado Rail Annual Number Ten," by Cornelius W. Hauck. RR39 "Steam Trains, " by Colin Garratt RR40 "Rails Across the Midlands," by Richard J. Cook. RR41 "Narrow Gauge in the Rockies," by Lucius Beebe and Charles Clegg, Howell North Press. RR42 "Mexican Narrow Gauge," by Gerald M. Best. RR43 "Train Wrecks," by RObert C. Reed, Bonanza Books. RR44 "The Last of Steam," by Joe G. Collins, Howell-North Press. RR45 "The Virginia Railway," by H. Reid, Kalmbach Publishing. RR46 "Steam Power of the New York Central System - Volume I Modern Power 1915-195, by Alvin F. Stauffer, First Printing. RR47 "The Nickel Plate Story," by John A Rehor, 482 pages. RR48 "The Age of Steam," Lucuis Beebe and Charles Clegg, Rinehart and Company, 304 pages. RR49 "Chicago and Northwestern Steam Power - 1848-1956, Classes A-Z, by C. T. Knudsen, Knudsen Publications, 188 pages. RR50 "Mixed Train Daily, by Lucius Beebe and C. M Clegg, Jr, E.P. Dutton Press, (note: both authors' autographs in front of book), 365 pages. RR51 "Articulated Steam Locomotives of North America," by Robert A. LeMassena, Sundance Books, 416 Pages. RR 52 "Rails Through Dixie - A Classic Album of Southern Railroading," by John Krause, Golden West Books. RR53 "Railroads of Nevada and Eastern California Vol. 2 - The Southern Roads, by F. Myrick, Howell-North Books, 1963, 933 pages. RR54 "Steam Locomotives and Boats - Southern Railway System," by Richard E. Prince, 204 pages. RR55 "Louisville & Nashville Steam Locomotives," by Richard E. Prince, 128 pages. RR56 " The Bessemer and Lake Erie Railraos 1869-=F1969," by Roy C. Beaver, Golden West Books, 184 pages. RR57 "Bradford the Railroad TOwn -A Railroad Town History of Bradford Ohio -A Pennsylvania Railroad Town," by Scott D. Trostel, (autographed by author, 152 pages. RR58 "C&O Power - Steam and Diesel Locomotives of the Chesapeake and Ohio Railway 1900-1965, Shuster, Huddleston, and Stauffer, Carrallton Standard Printing, 351 pages. RR59 "North American Steam Locomotives: The Northerns, " by Jack W. Farrell and Mike Pearsall, 248 pages. RR60 "The Detriot, Toledo and Irontown Railroad -Henry Ford's Railroad," by Scott D. Trostel, (with autograph of author), 312 pages. RR61 "Wabash," by Donald J. Heimburger, 320 pages. RR62 "Ghost Railroads of Tennessee," by Elmer G. Sulzer. RR63 "Ghost Railroads of Kentuckey, by Elmer G. Sulzer. RR64 "Ghost Railroads of Indiana," by Elmer G. Sulzer RR65 "The Railroad Caboose," by William F. Knapke, Golden West Books. RR66 "Ghost Railroads of Sarasoda County (Paperback)," by Elmer G. Sulzer, 1971. RR67 "Abandon Railroads of Bedford," Elmer J. Sulzer. RR86 Over 60 Additional Micellaneous paperback books on Pennsylvania and other railroads. RR97 "Steam's Finest Hour," by David P. Morgan RR98 "World Railways," by Henry Sampson, Rand McNally Company, 1951. RR99 "Japhanese Train Books (3 Books in Japanese) Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org Information Systems Specialist - Ball State University - Muncie, IN =3D=3D=3D http://bsuvc.bsu.edu/~00rphensley/cidwelco.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D The Railroads of Madison County, Indiana =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rhensley@ecicnet.org Date: 16 Jul 97 23:40:08 UT Subject: Auction, books Content-Length: 6441 F. RR BOOKS RR01 "Pocket Guide to American Locomotives," by W.A. Lucas, Simmonds Boardman., 1953 RR02 "A Century of Locomotives 1855-1955, New South Wales Railways,, 1855-1955," by The Australian Railway Society, 1955. RR03 "Cavalcade of New Zeland Locomotives," by A.N. Palmer and W.W. Stewart, RR04 "Locomotives and Trains of Kansas City Southern Louisana & Arkansas Railways," by A.E. Brown RR05 "Popular Picture and Plan Book of Railroad Cars and Locomotives," by Walter A. Lucas, 1951 RR06 "Little Railways of the World," by Frederick Shaw, 1958. RR07 "Train Wrecks," by Robert C. Reed, Bonanza Books RR08 "Monon The Hooser Line," by Dolzal, Interurban Press. RR09 "Monon the Hooser Route," by George W. Hilton, Howell-North Books RR10 "Pensy Power." by Alvin F. Stauffer RR11 "Pensy Power II," by Alvin F. Stauffer and Bert Pennypacker. RR12 "Pensy Power III," by Alvin F. Stauffer. RR13 "THe Pennsylvania Railroad, 1940's-1950's," by Don Ball Jr., Elm Tree Books. RR14 "The Growth and Development of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, 1846-1926, by H.W. Schotter, 1927. RR15 "Centennial History of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, 1846-1946," by Burgerr and Kennedy, 1949. RR16 "Trains in Transition, by Lucius Beebe, Bonanza Books. RR17 "Steam Locomotives of the Burlington Route," by Corbin and Kerka, First Edition. RR18 "Rails Under the Mighty Hudson," by Cudahy, Stephen Greene Press. RR19 "Highball, A Pagent of Trains," by Lucius Beebe, Appleton Century RR20 "On the Main Line - The Pennsylvania Railroad in the 19th Century," by Edwin P. Alexander, Bramhal House. RR21 "Highliners - A Railroad Album," by Lucius Beebe, Bonanza Books. RR22 "The Wreck of the Penn Central," by Daughten and Binzen. RR23 "Railways in the Transistion From Steam," O.S. Nock RR24 "Handbook of American Railroads," by Robert G. Lewis RR25 "Train Wreck," by Wesley S. Griswold, Steven Greene Press, 1969. RR26 "Louisville & Nashville Railroad, 1850-1963," by Kincaid A. Herr RR27 "Erie Power," by Frederick Westing RR28 ""B&O Power 1829-1964," by Lawrence Sagle RR29 "Great Trains of the World," by Wyatt Blassingame. RR30 "Steam Trains of the Soo," by Leslie V. Suprey RR31 "A Picture History of B&O Motive Power," by Lawrence W. Sagle, Simmons Boardman Publishing. RR32 "Model Railroader Cyclopedia 1944," Kalmback Publishing RR33 "American Locomotives," A Pictorial History of Steam Power 1900-1950, by Edwin P. Alexzander. RR34 "The Pennsylvania Railroad - A Pictoral History," by Edwin Alexander, W.W. Norton Company. RR35 "I Remember Pennsy," by Don Wood RR36 "Pennst Steam and Semaphores, by Fred Westing RR37 "Ride by the River, Visit the past on America's largest two-foot gauge railroad, " by Cornwall and Farrell. RR38 "Narrow Gauge to Central and Silver Plume: Colorado Rail Annual Number Ten," by Cornelius W. Hauck. RR39 "Steam Trains, " by Colin Garratt RR40 "Rails Across the Midlands," by Richard J. Cook. RR41 "Narrow Gauge in the Rockies," by Lucius Beebe and Charles Clegg, Howell North Press. RR42 "Mexican Narrow Gauge," by Gerald M. Best. RR43 "Train Wrecks," by RObert C. Reed, Bonanza Books. RR44 "The Last of Steam," by Joe G. Collins, Howell-North Press. RR45 "The Virginia Railway," by H. Reid, Kalmbach Publishing. RR46 "Steam Power of the New York Central System - Volume I Modern Power 1915-195, by Alvin F. Stauffer, First Printing. RR47 "The Nickel Plate Story," by John A Rehor, 482 pages. RR48 "The Age of Steam," Lucuis Beebe and Charles Clegg, Rinehart and Company, 304 pages. RR49 "Chicago and Northwestern Steam Power - 1848-1956, Classes A-Z, by C. T. Knudsen, Knudsen Publications, 188 pages. RR50 "Mixed Train Daily, by Lucius Beebe and C. M Clegg, Jr, E.P. Dutton Press, (note: both authors' autographs in front of book), 365 pages. RR51 "Articulated Steam Locomotives of North America," by Robert A. LeMassena, Sundance Books, 416 Pages. RR 52 "Rails Through Dixie - A Classic Album of Southern Railroading," by John Krause, Golden West Books. RR53 "Railroads of Nevada and Eastern California Vol. 2 - The Southern Roads, by F. Myrick, Howell-North Books, 1963, 933 pages. RR54 "Steam Locomotives and Boats - Southern Railway System," by Richard E. Prince, 204 pages. RR55 "Louisville & Nashville Steam Locomotives," by Richard E. Prince, 128 pages. RR56 " The Bessemer and Lake Erie Railraos 1869-=F1969," by Roy C. Beaver, Golden West Books, 184 pages. RR57 "Bradford the Railroad TOwn -A Railroad Town History of Bradford Ohio -A Pennsylvania Railroad Town," by Scott D. Trostel, (autographed by author, 152 pages. RR58 "C&O Power - Steam and Diesel Locomotives of the Chesapeake and Ohio Railway 1900-1965, Shuster, Huddleston, and Stauffer, Carrallton Standard Printing, 351 pages. RR59 "North American Steam Locomotives: The Northerns, " by Jack W. Farrell and Mike Pearsall, 248 pages. RR60 "The Detriot, Toledo and Irontown Railroad -Henry Ford's Railroad," by Scott D. Trostel, (with autograph of author), 312 pages. RR61 "Wabash," by Donald J. Heimburger, 320 pages. RR62 "Ghost Railroads of Tennessee," by Elmer G. Sulzer. RR63 "Ghost Railroads of Kentuckey, by Elmer G. Sulzer. RR64 "Ghost Railroads of Indiana," by Elmer G. Sulzer RR65 "The Railroad Caboose," by William F. Knapke, Golden West Books. RR66 "Ghost Railroads of Sarasoda County (Paperback)," by Elmer G. Sulzer, 1971. RR67 "Abandon Railroads of Bedford," Elmer J. Sulzer. RR86 Over 60 Additional Micellaneous paperback books on Pennsylvania and other railroads. RR97 "Steam's Finest Hour," by David P. Morgan RR98 "World Railways," by Henry Sampson, Rand McNally Company, 1951. RR99 "Japhanese Train Books (3 Books in Japanese) Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org Information Systems Specialist - Ball State University - Muncie, IN =3D=3D=3D http://bsuvc.bsu.edu/~00rphensley/cidwelco.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D The Railroads of Madison County, Indiana =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rhensley@ecicnet.org Date: 16 Jul 97 23:41:17 UT Subject: Auction, Locks-Timetables, misc Content-Length: 1860 G. SWITCH LOCKS SL01 PRR (with Key) SL02 PRR (with Key) SL03 PRR (with key) SL04 VT, Victoria Railway (Australia) (With key) SL05 CCC&StLR (with Key) SL06 Monon (with key) SL07 B&O R.R. (with key) SL08 B&O R.R. (with key) SL09 Pennsylvania Railroad Signal Lock (with key) SL10 VRR (Vandalia Railroad, with key) SL11 CI&WRR (with key) SL12 C&EI (with key) SL12 T&OC (with Key) SL13 Southern Railway (with key) SL14 SEL (with key) SL14 DT&I SL15 C&LE SL15 MONON SL16 TH&IRR SL17 TH&IRR H. TIMETABLES TT01 "Traveler's' Official Railway Guide, June 1870, Hardback Facsimile, 1971. TT02 "Official Railway Guide, June 1868, Hardback, Facsimile reprint, 1968. TT03 "British Railways Southern Region, 2 May 1977 to 7 May 1977, Central Division, Surban Lines, and Branches," Original. TT04 "British Railways Southern Region, 2 May 1977 to 7 May 1977, Central Division, Main Lines, and Branches," Original. TT05 "The Official Guide, 100th Annerversary Edition, June 1968, " GOld Cover, Good Condition. TT05 : The Official Guide of the Railways," March 1954, Original, Good Condition. TT06 "The Oficial Guide of the Railways," December 1952, Original, Good Condition. OTHER 50 watch fobs Railroad, Metal "LEE" doll dressed in denim overalls, 12 inches tall, 50 years old (Collecter's Item) Shares of Pennsylvania Railroad Stock (1 piece of Paper), 1958 Old Kodak Camera Bearcat Portable Scanner Radio Shack Programable Scanner Walnut Engine --- Frederick Auction --- Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org Information Systems Specialist - Ball State University - Muncie, IN === http://ecicnet.org/~rhensley/cidwelco.html ===================== === Homepage of the Central Indiana Division, Midwest Region NMRA == !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rhensley@ecicnet.org Date: 16 Jul 97 23:42:50 UT Subject: Auction in Indianapolis Content-Length: 1784 Greetings A few days ago I was asked by Dave Tozer (dtozer@iquest.net) if there was anything that I could do to help spread the word about a number of Railroadiana and model items that were going to be auctioned off. Dave felt that there were a number of items that might interest railfans and modelers alike and he wanted to help his brother-in-law. I asked him for a list of some of the items that were going to be in the auction as just saying there was an auction wouldn't mean anything. That was on the 7th. Yesterday, I received the following note along with 10 pages of Railroadiana, books, lanterns, switch keys, etc. I am breaking that list down into sections for posting and will lead each section with the word auction in case you wish to delete them without reading. Roger =================================================================== Date sent: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 22:35:58 -0400 (EDT) From: DrBob76@aol.com Subject: Estate Sale To: 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu Dear Sir: The estate sale of Robert A. Frederick, Sr. a retired engineer from the PRR will be held in Indianapolis IN on July 26 at 8417 Lindbergh Drive. The sale will be handled by Terry Royality 317-862-6540. I have attached a partial list of the items. Sincerely, Robert A. Frederick, Jr. ==================================================================== Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org Information Systems Specialist - Ball State University - Muncie, IN === http://bsuvc.bsu.edu/~00rphensley/cidwelco.html ================ === The Railroads of Madison County, Indiana ======================= !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rhensley@ecicnet.org Date: 16 Jul 97 23:44:57 UT Subject: Auction, Switch Keys & Locks Content-Length: 9633 E. SWITCH KEYS LET STAMP SERIAL # RAILROAD ------------------------------------------- A A+SABRy Atlanta+StAndrews Bay Ry A AC+HB A ACL 34135 Atlantic Coast Line A ACL EH 20313 Atlantic Coast Line A ANRR 911 S A ARR 6282 Alaska RR A AT+SFRy 53817 Sante Fe A AT+SFRYS 99574 Atchison-Topeka+Santa Fe ------------------------------------------- B B+O A16732 Baltimore + Ohio B B+O E2173 Baltimore + Ohio B B+O L STA Baltimore + Ohio Local Sta B B+ORR Baltimore + Ohio B B+ORRCO 59575 Baltimore and Ohio B B+ORRCO 111025 Baltimore + Ohio B B+ORRCO 120747 Baltimore + Ohio B BAR D237 Bangor+Aroostook B BC Rail British Columbia RR B BC+G Buffalo Creek+Gauley B Belt 9905 Belt Ry of Chicago B BN INC Burlington Northern B BN INC Burlington Northern B BN INC Burl Northern Inc B BN INC Burlington Northern Inc B BSFSRY B Burlington Route 228127 Burlington B Burlington Route Chicago Burlington+Quincy B Burlington Route Chicago-Burlington+Quincy ------------------------------------------- C C.C.&.L.RR C C+EI 3272 Chicago and Eastern Illinois C C+EI 8640 Chicago+Eastern Illinois C C+EI 4633 Chicago+Eastern Illinois C C+I 729 Cambria + Indiana C C+N DIV Baltimore + OHIO C C+N DIV Baltimore + OHIO C C+NW Chicago+Northwestern C C+NW Chicago Northwestern C C+NW Chicago Northwestern C C+O A155 Chesapeake and Ohio C C+O 12512 Chesapeake+Ohio C C+O 16251 Chesapeake+Ohio C C+SRy 2574 Colorado + Southern C C+WI 2279 Chicago + Western indiana C C+WI 6262 Chicago + Western Indiana C C+WMMR Chicago+Western Michigan-Chesapeake+Ohio C CAS Chicago-Attica+Southern C CCC+StL Cleveland-Cincinnati-Chicago+St Louis C CCC+StL 32344 Cleveland-Cincinnati-Chicago+St Louis C CCC+StL Cleveland Cincinatti Chicago+StLouis C CFNM 1631 F C Nacional Mexicano-Mexican National Ry C CH+DRR 22-2 Cincinnati-Hamilton+Dayton - B+O C CH+DRy 2244S Cincinnatti Hamilton+Dayton -B+O C CI+E 1381 Chicago-Indiana+Eastern C CIPSCO Central Illinois Public Service (Interurban) C CIRy 917 Central Indiana C CMStP+P Chicago-Milwaukee-St. Paul + Pacific C CMStP+P Chicago-Milwaukee-St. Paul + Pacific C CMStP+P Chicago Milwaukee-St. Paul+Pacific C CNR Cnadian National C CNR-S Canadian National C CNRR Cincinnati Norther RR- New York Central C CNS+M Chicago-North Shore+Milwaukee C CoGRR Central of Georgia C CPR-S Canadian Pacific C CPR-T Canadian Pacific C CRI+P Chicago-Rock Island + Pacific C CRR 2176 Clinchfield C CRR 1428 Clinchfield RR C CSS 1926 Chicago-South Shore + South Bend C CTA Chicago Transet Authority C Central Indiana ------------------------------------------- D D+H Deleware + Hudson D D+RGW Denver+Rio Grande Western D D+SL Denver+Salt Lake D DL+CRR Dayton Lebanon+Cincinnati - Penna D DM+IR Duluth-Massible+Iron Range D DT+I 84 Detriot Toledo + Irontown D DTI 75 Detriot Toledo+Ironton ------------------------------------------- E EBT East Broad Top E EBTRR East Broad Top E EJ+E 12828 Elgin Joliet+Eastern E Erie RR 5242 Erie RR ------------------------------------------- F FCCNdeM 21110 National Railway of Mexico F FEC Flordia East Coast F Frisco StLouis - San Francisco ------------------------------------------- G GB+W 1050 Green Bay+Western G GMRR Gainsville Midland G GN RY G1655 Great Northern RT G GNRY A47 Great Northern Ry G GR+IRY 2415 Grand Rapids+Indiana -Penna G GRN+LSRR Grand Rapids-Newaygo-Lake Shore-Chesapeake+Ohio G GTW Grand Trunk Western G Gettysburg ------------------------------------------- I ICRR Illinois Central I ICRR 21096 Ill Central I IHB Indiana Harbor Belt I IHBRR 16866 Indiana Harbor Belt ------------------------------------------- J JCL Jersey Central Lines ------------------------------------------- K K+IT 1325 Kentucky+Indiana Terminal ------------------------------------------- L L+M 358 Linchfield+Madison L L+N 23575 Louisville and Nashville L L+N Louisville + Nashville L L+NRR 5740 Louisville + Nashville L LE+WRR 2925 Lake Erie+Western - NKP-N+W L LE+WRtCo 5431 Lake Erie+Western L LIRR Z266 Long Island L LNA+CRR ?? L LNE ?? L LO R2664 ?? L LVRR C6416 Lehigh Valley ------------------------------------------- M MCCRRR McCloud River RR M MCRR Michigan Central M MCRR Michigan Central M MCRR C Michigan Central M MK+TRy Missouri-Kansas+Texas M MN+SRY Minneapolis-Northfiled+Southern M MOPAC 630 Missouri Pacific M MOPAC 61332 Missouri Pacific M MRR 581 ?Montour M MRS Manufacturers Ry M MRY E319 Monongahela M MTM 19T462 Minneasota Transport Museum ------------------------------------------- N N+PBL 1148 Norfolf+Portsmith Beltline N N+W 13726 Norfolk+Western (Wabash) N N+W 7466S Norfolk+Western N N+W 42684 Norfolk+Western N N+W 18441 Norfolk+Western (Small Key) N N+W 19012 Norfolf+Western N NdeM National of Mexico N NH+IRR New Hope + Ivyland N NKP 14904 Nickel PLate N NKP 10312 Nickle Plate N NS Norfolk Southern N NY+LB New York+Long Beech N NYCS Toledo+Ohio Central (2 keys) N NYCS (Steel) New York Central (2 Keys) N NYCS New York Central N NYCS New York Central System N Northwest Pacific ------------------------------------------- P P?PU RR ?? P P+E 71 Peoria+Eastern P P+LE K2908 Pittsburgh+Lake Erie P PANHANDLE LO1082 Pennsylvania P PC Penn Central P PC Penn Central P PCanal PRR111 Panama Canal (Panama RR) P PCC+StL Pennsylvania (Williams) P PCRR Penn Central (Broken) P PCRR Penn Central P PENNA A707 Pennsylvania P PENNA C 2243H Pennsylvania P PENNA C1388 Pennsylvania P PENNA SWR 3263 Pennsylvania P PENNA W 3943M Pennsylvania P PENNA W3763S Pennsylvania P PENNA CTD1506 Pennsylvania P PMRy 6932 Pere Marquete - Chesapeake + Ohio P PPL TH1120 Pittsburgh Power and Light Co. P PRR E2867M Pennsylvania, PRR (GEO SPRINGER) P PRR Pennsylvania P PRR Pennsylvania P PRSL Pennsylvania Reading Seashore Lines P E2705M Pennsylvania P SWR 3237 Pennsylvania (L. Brasher) ------------------------------------------- R Red River+Gulf ------------------------------------------- S SANTE FE 14343 Sante Fe S SCLRR Seaboard Cost Line S SD+AE San Diego+Arizona Eastern S SEABOARD 17192 Seaboard Air Line RR S SIRY 773 Southern Indiana S SIRy 790 Souther Indiana Ry S SOO LINE SOO LINE (Wisconsin Central) S SOO LINE SOO LINE S SRy WS Southern Ry S SSW 15672 StLouis Southwestern S StLP+NRR StLouis-Peoria+Northern-Ill Central+G M+O ------------------------------------------- T T+TRR 995 Tama+Toledo(Abandon) or Toledo Terminal T TCRR Tennesee Central T TENN RY Tennessee RY T TP+W 836 Toledo-Peoria+Western T TRRA 1826 Term RR ASSN (St. Louis) T TSRRy S435 T TSTL+W 233 Toledo-StLouis+Western(Clover Leaf) Nickel PLate T TStL+WRR 2562 Toledo St. Louis+Western(Clover Leaf) Nickel PLate ------------------------------------------- U UP Union Pacific U UPRR Union Pacific ------------------------------------------- V VRR C-142 Vandalia - PENNA V VRR B-524 Vandalia - PENNA ------------------------------------------- W WABASH 4373 Wabash W WK+S 1378 Wanamaker-Kempton+Southern W WMRy 8838S Western Maryland W WRR 8287S Wabash ------------------------------------------- Y YALE 24291 Southern Ry Switch Key ------------------------------------------- V VR Victoria Railway (So. Australia) (in Lock) ------------------------------------------- P PENNA W2699M Pennsylvania (With Lock) P PRR 867 Pennsylvania (With Lock) P B7036R Pennsylvania (Williams)(With Lock) Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org Information Systems Specialist - Ball State University - Muncie, IN === http://bsuvc.bsu.edu/~00rphensley/cidwelco.html ================ === The Railroads of Madison County, Indiana ======================= !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rhensley@ecicnet.org Date: 17 Jul 97 00:24:39 UT Subject: Auction, Videos-Photos Content-Length: 4176 A. RAILROAD VIDEOS ------------------------------------------- WB Productions, 3-Tape Series Historical; Features of the Pennsylvania Railroad, 5-Tapes Power Volume II Pennsylvania Railroad Steam in Action - Crestline Studios L&N 152 (3 Copies) Steam Around the World The Cass Scenic Railroad Arkansas Steam The South African Railway Films of Denny Trueman Assault on Asheville NKP 765 - Greg Scholl Great American Train Rides Saluda Mountain (2 Copies) Trains Unlimited 1997 Preview of Tours The Romney, Hythe & Dymchurch into the 1990's Steam Shortlines of the South Dream Trains, Short Hops & Whistle Stops Island Time Warp, Trains of Cuba (2 Copies) Greg Scholl Videos: Steam By the Ocean A New Beginning Steam Runs Daily Full Throttle Cumbres The Final Chapter Double Track Main The Bethlehem Line International BCR 3716: Royal Hudson Double Header The Great Little Train from Down Under Garratts of Zimbabwe BC Rail China Mixed Freight Cincinnatti 611 The Legend Continues Union Pacific - Cecil B. De Mill's Great Steam Trains - Volume 1 Miscellanous Transfers: Virginia and Truckee Nevada Northern NRHS Conv Spec 765 Huckelberry RR Flint Michigan NW611 PRR Columbus Division B&O PRR Horshoe Curve NW1218 Trip From Portsmith Ohio B. Railroad Artifacts ------------------------------------------- RA01 Electric Lantern RA02 Marker Light with 3 Lenses RA03 Marker Light with 3 Lenses RA04 Marker Light Bracket RA05 Marker Light Bracket RA06 Pennsylvania RR Engine Keystone #150, Serial # on back is X18183 RA07 Cast Iron "Whistle" Marker, # on Back M53845, Black and White, 14x16 inches RA08 Terre Haute Metal Station Sigh, C. LANTERNS ------------------------------------------- L01 Lantern: "G.R. & L. Ry", "January 26, 1909" Globe: Red, "P.C.C. & StLRy" L02 Lantern: "Pennsylvania Line" Globe: Clear with Keystone ,"P S" L03 Lantern: "V.R.R." Vandalia Railroad Globe: Clear "V.R.R." L04 Lantern: T.H. & I.R.R. Globe: Blue, "T.H. & I.R.R." L05 Lantern: Gold, for Presentations Globe: Blue L06 Lantern: "R. FREDERICK ENGINEER" Globe: Clear with Raised PRR Keystone_ L07 Lantern: "V.R.R." Vandalia Railroad Globe: Clear "V.R.R." (same as L03) L08 Lantern "IU.RY" Globe: Clear L09 Lantern: "C.C.C. & ST.L.RY." Globe: Clear, "Dietz", Pear Shaped L10 Lantern: Silver, 1923 Globe: Clear, "ICRR L11 Lantern: Adlake Kero, No Inscription L12 Lantern: "PRR" Keystone Stamp Globe: Red, "PRR" in Raised Letters D. NOTEBOOKS --------------------------------------------------- N 01 Miscellaneous Photos/ Postcards N 02 "Photos 8x10, 5x7" Over 150 Prints N 03 Engine Photos, B&O, C&O, Monon, Over 100 Prints N 04 "PRR 5x7 8x10" Engine Photos, Stations, Calendar Photos N 05 "PRR 5x7 8x10" 48 photos Business Car,GG1s,Box Car Converted into Passenger Cars N 06 "Photos 5x7 8x10" Train Wrecks, Nickle Plate N 07 "PRR 5x7 8x10" N 08 "PRR Photos", over 50 photos, B&W Steam and Diesel,20's,to 40's, St. Clair Engine House N 09 "Photos", over 120 photos Rio Grande Photos N 10 Over 50 Engine Photos N 11 "PRR Lines West of Pittsburgh, Compendium of Joint Announcements, 1904." Xerox Copy N 13 "Richmons Ind, Xenia Ohio, Dayton Ohio, Logansport IND", Over 50 B&W Photos N 14 "Foreign Locomotives" Over 80 Photos PHOTO ALBUMS ------------------------------------------- PA 01 Pennsylvania Railroad Passes 1918,20,21,35, 39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46, 57,60,65,79-80,82,86,89 PA 02 Misc 3x5's Bridges, Stations, Train Wrecks Roger Hensley rhensley@ecicnet.org Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org Information Systems Specialist - Ball State University - Muncie, IN === http://ecicnet.org/~rhensley/cidwelco.html ===================== === Homepage of the Central Indiana Division, Midwest Region NMRA == !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CrichlowDL@aol.com Date: 17 Jul 97 02:22:11 UT Subject: PRR Indianapolis Content-Length: 930 Does anyone know of any effort to preserve the PRR herald and bronze letters marking the location of the PRR coach yard in downtown Indianapolis? The city is building a new arena. Half of the arena will occupy the real estate that was once the coach yard (now owned by Conrail). The yard was elevated about 20 feet. A massive concrete retaining wall surrounds the area. On the southeast corner of South Pennsylvania and East Georgia Streets, PRR placed a full color herald (possibly cloisonne or a similar construction) red with PRR within the keystone. Beneath the herald, "PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD" appears in approx 12" high individual bronze characters. The herald and the name are embedded in the retaining wall. Almost certainly, the wall...and thus these artifacts...will be bulldozed. The wall has always been a nostalgic reminder of the time when PRR and rail in Indianapolis were kings. Doug Crichlow !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 17 Jul 97 09:10:14 UT Subject: Dating Philla. Div. Track Chart Content-Length: 1531 Remember that Philadelphia Region Track chart I was trying to date? It's now online. Here's a summary: The original is in great condition, so it is probably later than the 1945 version. It includes the Northern Central Railway from Enola to Wago junction, so it is pre-1964 since this line was included in the Harrisburg Region as of this time. Ken McCorry notes that the fourth track between Paoli and Glen was removed as of 1961. This chart shows four tracks. That leaves us between 1945 and 1961 for a date of this map. Covers Northern Central Railway, Atglen & Susquehanna Branch, Philadelphia & Thorndale Branch, Trenton Branch, Cumberland Valley Branch (Harrisburg to Lemoyne), Lancaster to Royalton via Columbia, Lebanon Branch, East Lebanon Branch, North Lebanon Branch, Steelton Canal Branch, Rockville Branch, Quarryville Branch, New Holland Branch, Pomeroy Branch, Coatesville Branch, and West Chester Branch., Cumberland Valley Branch (Lemoyne to Winchester), Dillsburg Branch, Waynesboro Branch, South Penn Branch, S.P.Ry. & M. Co. (S.P. Jct. to Richmond), S.P.Ry. & M. Co. (Mercersburg Branch), S.P.Ry. & M. Co. (Wye Connecting Track), and Cumbo Connection. Does the included branches shed any more light? Were the Philadelphia & Thorndale and Trenton branches always in thie division? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org Date: 17 Jul 97 10:08:08 UT Subject: Re: Dating Philla. Div. Track Chart Content-Length: 1110 > Remember that Philadelphia Region Track chart I was trying to date? [...] > Lebanon Branch, East Lebanon Branch, North Lebanon Branch, > Steelton Canal Branch, Rockville Branch, Quarryville Branch, > New Holland Branch, Pomeroy Branch, Coatesville Branch, > and West Chester Branch., > Dillsburg Branch, Waynesboro Branch, South Penn Branch, > Does the included branches shed any more light? Were the Philadelphia & > Thorndale and Trenton branches always in thie division? Yes. I wish I could help with dates. How much of the New Holland Branch is in? Is it in all the way to Downiningtown? The Dillsburg Br. was taken out in the '60s, I thought, but that does not help you much. I don't recall when the Waynesboro Branch came out. And all my ETTs (which would answer this) are packed away for our move... Dan [Cupper], would Randy Watts possibly have some of this info? Also Jerry, note that track charts often continued to be used even after stuff was taken out -- since, basically after the Depression and WW II, more stuff was taken out than put in. -- Mark !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: tmeadow@bearriver.com Date: 17 Jul 97 12:11:45 UT Subject: PRR SD9s Content-Length: 591 I'd like to make contact with anyone who knows something about the PRR SD9s, such as where they were operated, which trains they were used on, paint schemes, when they were sold off, etc. I'm working on a book on the SD7 and SD9 locomotives, and am also looking for slides and photos to use in it. If anyone knows any former engineers or mechanics who operated or repaired SD9s, I'd be grateful for contact information. Thanks. Tony Meadow 30 Pine Hills Court, Oakland, CA 94611 Telephone (day): 510 834 5300 Fax (day): 510 834 5396 Internet: tmeadow@bearriver.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bnixon@pop.pitt.edu Date: 17 Jul 97 12:22:00 UT Subject: PRR Indianapolis/Pittsburgh the same Content-Length: 825 Doug wrote: >Does anyone know of any effort to preserve the PRR herald and bronze letters >marking the location of the PRR coach yard in downtown Indianapolis? >The city is building a new arena. Half of the arena will occupy the real >estate that was once the coach yard (now owned by Conrail). >Almost certainly, the wall...and thus these artifacts...will be bulldozed. >The wall has always been a nostalgic reminder of the time when PRR and rail >in Indianapolis were kings. The same thing happened recently in Pittsburgh. Some of the old warehouse buildings were to be renovated and they had big PRR heeralds in the stone. An effort was made to save them, an article was written to the editor of Post Gazette and they were torn down a day before the published letter made it in the paper. Bill Nixon !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 17 Jul 97 12:25:53 UT Subject: Modeling a Lines West "E7" Atlantic Content-Length: 477 Dick Ross and I have been discussing Atlantics on Lines West. Through him I learned of the updated E2/E3 4-4-2s used by Lines West which it called the E7. Using the MDC PRR kit will give me a boiler, smokebox and firebox that appear correct but may be too big. PennsyPower II shows E2s and E#s with radial stay and Belpraire fireboxes. (Its only E7 shot is a fuzzy sillhoutte without detail) Any thoughts about a source of the E2/3-E7 rigid trailing truck. Tom V. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 17 Jul 97 12:26:28 UT Subject: Re: CD Project is a "GO" Content-Length: 374 In a message dated 97-07-17 03:40:30 EDT, you write: << The disk will be in ISO-9660 format, so it should be usable by UNIX, Wintel, and Macintosh systems. It will also include current installers for Adobe Acrobat Reader. >> Okay, besides getting on the ground level what benefit is there in purchasing this initial CD for a Lines Westerner like me? Tom V. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 17 Jul 97 12:42:52 UT Subject: Re: What a find--"The Long Trains Roll"!!! Content-Length: 2514 In a message dated 97-07-15 00:09:51 EDT, you write: << What may not be well know is there was a second landing, in Florida, with much the same goals. The second landing was totally unobserved. The FBI only learned about it from debriefing the Germans from the first landing. I read a nonfiction book about it way back in the early sixties. I can no longer recall the title or author. Perhaps some one else on this list has a better memmory. -- Larry Morgan >> >From what I have read, happily the Abwehr, Germany's WWII foriegn intelligence service, was greatly hampered by the complete coopting of its British spy network, use of communications that were easily decrypted and stafffed by professionals whose support of their government seems to rannged from who did not zealously embrace Nazism to many who worked in opposition to it. Otherwise we might not have either Gallitizin or Hellsgate today. Greenfield, Indiana. Gee, that brings back memories. A city park just a block or so north of U.S. 40 was a frequent lunch stop along with Knightstown Spring in pre-Interstate 70 days as my family drove along the Panhandle's Columbus-St. Louis main as we crossed Indiana and Illinois on trips from Dayton to visit Mom's folks and siblings in St. Louis. Because of these twice yearly or more trips from 1955 to 1971 or 1972, I became more familiar with the Pennsylvania than any other railroad because it seemed that when we were outside of cities, I could see the Panhandle main from U.S. 40 nearly the entire way from Richmond, Ind., to St. Louis. U.S. 40 crossed the Mississippi on Veterans' Memorial Bridge, about five blocks north of the Eads bridge used by the PRR. I'm mainly interested in Lines West. Can you tell me anything about the Panhandle Lines in eastern and southern Indiana. I'm interested in learning more about the Jeffersonville, Madison & Indianapolis, the Madison branch, the ?Shelbyville? branch that ran northeast from Columbus (Ind.) through Shelbyville and Rushville to the PCC&St.L main at Dublin Jct. just west of Richmond, and the Chicago-Cincinnati passenger mainline that passed through Richmond, New Castle, Anderson and Kokomo. Thanx in advance for any help! Tom V. P.S. James Whitcomb Riley means more than an NYC nametrain to me. Mom used to recite "Li'l Orphan Annie" and other of his poems to me and my brothers when we were young. Stopping in Greenfield made me take a little more notice of him than other writers. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: harmanta@monroe.army.mil Date: 17 Jul 97 12:51:49 UT Subject: RE: PRR SD9s Content-Length: 892 I used to watch SD-9's switching cars in Enola Yard. > ---------- > From: tmeadow@bearriver.com[SMTP:tmeadow@bearriver.com] > Reply To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Sent: Thursday, July 17, 1997 8:11 AM > To: Members of group > Subject: PRR SD9s > > I'd like to make contact with anyone who knows something about the PRR > SD9s, such as where they were operated, which trains they were used > on, > paint schemes, when they were sold off, etc. I'm working on a book on > the > SD7 and SD9 locomotives, and am also looking for slides and photos to > use > in it. > > If anyone knows any former engineers or mechanics who operated or > repaired > SD9s, I'd be grateful for contact information. > > Thanks. > > Tony Meadow > 30 Pine Hills Court, Oakland, CA 94611 > Telephone (day): 510 834 5300 Fax (day): 510 834 5396 > Internet: tmeadow@bearriver.com > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 17 Jul 97 13:39:15 UT Subject: Re: CD Project is a "GO" Content-Length: 588 From: TVondruska@aol.com > Okay, besides getting on the ground level what benefit is there in purchasing > this initial CD for a Lines Westerner like me? Ehhhh....uhhhhhh.....mmmmm. None. Tom: If you have any track charts you could lend me for scanning, I'll post 'em on "KC" and place them on the next CD. I do need Lines West material...my site is not a Lines East site by intention. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk@aol.com Date: 17 Jul 97 14:05:33 UT Subject: Re: Modeling a Lines West "E7" Atlantic Content-Length: 736 Use the Mantua E3 model. Built one a few years ago, ran great. I replaced the plastic trailing wheel with one from a Bowser K4. Don't know if it was the right diameter, but it looked good to me. Also replaced the pilot truck with one from Bowser. << Dick Ross and I have been discussing Atlantics on Lines West. Through him I learned of the updated E2/E3 4-4-2s used by Lines West which it called the E7. Using the MDC PRR kit will give me a boiler, smokebox and firebox that appear correct but may be too big. PennsyPower II shows E2s and E#s with radial stay and Belpraire fireboxes. (Its only E7 shot is a fuzzy sillhoutte without detail) Any thoughts about a source of the E2/3-E7 rigid trailing truck. >> !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 17 Jul 97 14:11:04 UT Subject: Re: Modeling a Lines West "E7" Atlantic Content-Length: 962 As I recall the E3/E7 had a variant of the USRA trailing truck. The K4, of course, had a KW truck which looks very different. Off hand I'd say, try something from Precision Scale. regards Andy >Use the Mantua E3 model. Built one a few years ago, ran great. I replaced >the plastic trailing wheel with one from a Bowser K4. Don't know if it was >the right diameter, but it looked good to me. Also replaced the pilot truck >with one from Bowser. > ><< Dick Ross and I have been discussing Atlantics on Lines West. Through him >I > learned of the updated E2/E3 4-4-2s used by Lines West which it called the > E7. Using the MDC PRR kit will give me a boiler, smokebox and firebox that > appear correct but may be too big. PennsyPower II shows E2s and E#s with > radial stay and Belpraire fireboxes. (Its only E7 shot is a fuzzy sillhoutte > without detail) Any thoughts about a source of the E2/3-E7 rigid trailing > truck. >> > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cupper@ibm.net Date: 17 Jul 97 14:58:08 UT Subject: Re: Dating Philla. Div. Track Chart Content-Length: 2219 > > Remember that Philadelphia Region Track chart I was trying to > > date? [...] > > Lebanon Branch, East Lebanon Branch, North Lebanon Branch, > > > Steelton Canal Branch, Rockville Branch, Quarryville Branch, > > New Holland Branch, Pomeroy Branch, Coatesville Branch, > > and West Chester Branch., > > > Dillsburg Branch, Waynesboro Branch, South Penn Branch, > > > Does the included branches shed any more light? Were the > > Philadelphia & Thorndale and Trenton branches always in thie > > division? > > Yes. I wish I could help with dates. > > How much of the New Holland Branch is in? Is it in all the way to > Downiningtown? > > The Dillsburg Br. was taken out in the '60s, I thought, but that > does not help you much. I don't recall when the Waynesboro Branch > came out. > Dan [Cupper], would Randy Watts possibly have some of this info? > > Mark Mark, Randy might be able to help, but I can offer a few guidelines here. Sorry that I can't be too specific, but this may serve as a beginning. The Dillsburg Branch remained in service through the Penn Central years and even, I believe, into the earliest Conrail days under (again, I believe) a purchase-of-service (state subsidy) agreement. The Waynesboro Branch was damaged in the Agnes flood (1972 and thus well into Penn Central) and never reopened, but it remained in place for some time thereafter. It was excluded from Conrail in the USRA plan and thus became an orphan of the Penn Central trustees before being officially abandoned and scrapped. The Lebanon Branch was in a similar condition, damaged by Agnes and not reopened except for brief stretches near the connections with more important lines. Many of the others continued in service and several are obviouxly still active today. I think your notion of finding out how much of the New Holland Branch is shown is the best starting point for an actual dating process, since it was severed far earlier than many of these other lines. As to an actual date it was cut back, that would be up to someone from Lancaster County or the Lancaster NRHS to help sort out. Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Psalm 27:8 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 17 Jul 97 15:22:59 UT Subject: P2K E7's Content-Length: 727 What kind of prices are you folks seeing for advance orders for P2K E7s when they come out? 1 Railroad Avenue is offering 15% off if you order now. However, their Web site shows current road names at $90 for powered A units, which I believe is list price. Net price after discount would be $76.50. I am looking to buy an ABA set, with both A units powered. How many out there are planning to buy these units? Perhaps we could swing a volume deal with someone; though shipping to each other would probably nullify any savings. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 17 Jul 97 15:38:02 UT Subject: RE: P2K E7's Content-Length: 1470 Jerry, I seem to recall several retailers selling the E8s at around $50. I presume the E7s would be similar. I haven't been tracking the price of them in the magazines since I only intend to buy one E7B to tuck between my two E8s. The 2 E8s will regularly and easily haul 20 car passenger trains up the North Shore club's 2% mountain grades. But they look silly doing it alone! I will probably buy it at Charles Ro. Unbeknownst to most HO model RRs, he has a reasonably good HO shop and the best prices in the country. I bought my E8s there for $45, as I recall. The bad news is, he refuses to do HO mail-order business, despite his very successful Lionel and G scale mail-order business. >What kind of prices are you folks seeing for advance orders for P2K E7s when >they come out? > >1 Railroad Avenue is offering 15% off if you order now. However, their Web >site shows current road names at $90 for powered A units, which I believe is >list price. Net price after discount would be $76.50. > >I am looking to buy an ABA set, with both A units powered. > >How many out there are planning to buy these units? Perhaps we could swing a >volume deal with someone; though shipping to each other would probably >nullify any savings. >--------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator >Progressive Information Technologies >britton@pit-magnus.com >http://www.pit-magnus.com > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 17 Jul 97 15:46:05 UT Subject: Bachmann Spectrum Passenger Cars Content-Length: 2494 Noticed that the last issue of The Railroad Telegraph didn't mention the promised rerun of Spectrum PRR passenger cars that were expected at year end, so I went to Walthers to take a look: 160- 89241 Spectrum Heavyweight PRR Post-War -- H $ 29.95 08/31/1997 Combine #9920 160- 89242 Spectrum Heavyweight PRR Post-War -- H $ 29.95 08/31/1997 Coach #4533 160- 89243 Spectrum Heavyweight PRR Post-War -- H $ 29.95 08/31/1997 Coach #3748 160- 89244 Spectrum Heavyweight PRR Post-War -- H $ 29.95 08/31/1997 Diner #8018 160- 89245 Spectrum Heavyweight PRR Post-War -- H $ 29.95 08/31/1997 Coach #3816 160- 89246 Spectrum Heavyweight PRR Post-War -- H $ 29.95 08/31/1997 Observation #130 160- 89301 Spectrum Heavyweight PRR Pre-War -- H $ 29.95 08/31/1997 Combine #5109 160- 89302 Spectrum Heavyweight PRR Pre-War -- H $ 29.95 08/31/1997 Coach #1703 160- 89303 Spectrum Heavyweight PRR Pre-War -- H $ 29.95 08/31/1997 Coach #3323 160- 89304 Spectrum Heavyweight PRR Pre-War -- H $ 29.95 08/31/1997 Diner #4491 160- 89305 Spectrum Heavyweight PRR Pre-War -- H $ 29.95 08/31/1997 Coach #1704 160- 89306 Spectrum Heavyweight PRR Pre-War -- H $ 29.95 08/31/1997 160- 89117 Pullman Car Hvywgt PRR H $ 29.95 09/30/1997 Observation Car #1705 Andy Miller has previously noted that these cars are superb representations of Pennsy prototypes and, if I am correct, are lighted and include interiors! BTW: Walthers has corrected their descriptions to show P2K B units as B units. Before they were listed as A units. Between these cars and the P2K E7's, this could be an expensive fall!!! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 17 Jul 97 15:51:58 UT Subject: RE: P2K E7's Content-Length: 583 From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org > I seem to recall several retailers selling the E8s at around $50. I presume > the E7s would be similar. I was quoting an existing E7 retail of $90. I believe the E8s are significantly less at list. Hence, the discount on the E7s would be more than the $50 available on the E8s. I know the new E7s are DCC-plug ready. Perhaps that hikes the price? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: robs@protocol.zycad.com Date: 17 Jul 97 15:56:24 UT Subject: Re: P2K E7's Content-Length: 1115 Jerry etc... My "local" (if you consider 45 minutes away local) hobby shop and mailorder place Model Railway Post Office (they advertise in RMC) has the E7A's for 59.95, B's for 31.50. (33% off). Their # is 1-800-328-6776. I usually don't plug shops but they are very helpful and their prices are usually pretty good..... Rob ----------------------- What kind of prices are you folks seeing for advance orders for P2K E7s when they come out? T3top_dp.N T3top_dp1 Railroad Avenue is offering 15% off if you order now. However, their Web site shows current road names at $90 for powered A units, which I believe is list price. Net price after discount would be $76.50. I am looking to buy an ABA set, with both A units powered. How many out there are planning to buy these units? Perhaps we could swing a volume deal with someone; though shipping to each other would probably nullify any savings. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 17 Jul 97 15:58:06 UT Subject: Liberty Limited in Two Sections Content-Length: 608 I have a few pre-war consist reports for the Liberty Limited...when it ran in a single section. The power was two K4s. I then have two consist reports from the early '40s which show the Liberty running in two sections but don't ID the power. Each section has 9-10 cars. Would it still have had two K4s on each section, or likely only one? FYI: A '53 consist report shows the Liberty pulled by an ABA set of E7s. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 17 Jul 97 16:08:52 UT Subject: RE: Bachmann Spectrum Passenger Cars Content-Length: 1621 >Noticed that the last issue of The Railroad Telegraph didn't mention the >promised rerun of Spectrum PRR passenger cars that were expected at year >end, so I went to Walthers to take a look: > . . . (long list set out) > >Andy Miller has previously noted that these cars are superb representations >of Pennsy prototypes and, if I am correct, are lighted and include >interiors! > . . . >--------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator >Progressive Information Technologies >britton@pit-magnus.com >http://www.pit-magnus.com > Jerry, Did you also notice that the September "New Products Expecteded" includes the long-awaited Bachmann HW Pullman! Its offered in several paint schemes including PRR. Curiously, the announced offering does NOT include "Pullman"!! I still don't know what configuration of Pullman this car will be. My best gueses from scanty data are a 6-6 or an 8-5. The Pennsy used both, but specific assignments will have to await more info. I also noted that the list price has gone up. So what else is new? I guess they are trying to give ECW (whose cars they copied) a sporting chance. On a last note, did I use the word "superb". Thats a bit strong for any plastic car built for the RTR market. It certainly is not in the class of what an Intermountain or Red Caboose or P2K might do if they did passenger cars. But the overall details are correct. They did model PRR prototypes, not just any car and then paint it Pennsy as Athearn or MDC or Concor do. regards Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org Date: 17 Jul 97 16:17:33 UT Subject: Re: CD Project is a "GO" Content-Length: 517 > > Okay, besides getting on the ground level what benefit is there in > purchasing > > this initial CD for a Lines Westerner like me? > > Ehhhh....uhhhhhh.....mmmmm. None. > > Tom: If you have any track charts you could lend me for scanning, I'll post > 'em on "KC" and place them on the next CD. I do need Lines West > material...my site is not a Lines East site by intention. Jerry, I have some, but I'm still working on Pgh Div I have both Fort Wayne and them thar southwest thingie. -- Mark !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 17 Jul 97 16:34:07 UT Subject: Re: Modeling a Lines West "E7" Atlantic Content-Length: 1349 I thought the early Atlantics, as built had a trailing axle but not a true trailing truck as the E6s did with it's KW truck? HWF ---------- > From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org > To: Members of group > Subject: Re: Modeling a Lines West "E7" Atlantic > Date: Thursday, July 17, 1997 10:11 AM > > As I recall the E3/E7 had a variant of the USRA trailing truck. The K4, of > course, had a KW truck which looks very different. Off hand I'd say, try > something from Precision Scale. > > regards > Andy > > >Use the Mantua E3 model. Built one a few years ago, ran great. I replaced > >the plastic trailing wheel with one from a Bowser K4. Don't know if it was > >the right diameter, but it looked good to me. Also replaced the pilot truck > >with one from Bowser. > > > ><< Dick Ross and I have been discussing Atlantics on Lines West. Through him > >I > > learned of the updated E2/E3 4-4-2s used by Lines West which it called the > > E7. Using the MDC PRR kit will give me a boiler, smokebox and firebox that > > appear correct but may be too big. PennsyPower II shows E2s and E#s with > > radial stay and Belpraire fireboxes. (Its only E7 shot is a fuzzy sillhoutte > > without detail) Any thoughts about a source of the E2/3-E7 rigid trailing > > truck. >> > > > > > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 17 Jul 97 18:26:49 UT Subject: Re: Dating Philla. Div. Track Chart Content-Length: 686 From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org > How much of the New Holland Branch is in? Is it in all the way to > Downiningtown? Shows connection with Main Line at Greenfield, mielpost 39, thru milepost 0, after Downingtown, where it rejoins the Main Line again. However, the section between mileposts 17.5 and 9.5 (inlcusinve of Buchanon's Road, Suplee, Forrest Lewis Mill, Wyebrook, Barneston, and Glenmoore) is labeled "out of service but not abandoned). Is this any help? ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: 17 Jul 97 18:36:30 UT Subject: Re: Modeling a Lines West "E7" Atlantic Content-Length: 1219 HWF is correct - the E-2/ E-3 - E-7 Atlantics had a traling axel which pivoted vertically - but not horizontally (ie did not rotate) - this gives you an Atlantic which actually have the fixed wheelbase of Pacific or Ten Wheeler. Note that DA72JMK said he used the K-4 WHEEL - not trailing truck on his conversion. The Mantua model actually has a trailing truck - but as I recall (long time since I was in HO) it is - like the old Roundhouse (MDC) set up to represent an inside bearing "bogie" truck - with the rod details cast into side. The PRR Atlantic used by the Strasburg - imitation 7002 - was an example of this class - if you happened to photograph it. The rigid trailing axel made it perfect for Strasburg - where it was backing up half the time. Believe it or not Pennsy actually had a 19th century class of Atlantics with a BLIND DRIVER - these were locomotives where the lead truck was on a fixed pivot (rather than sliding) and lead driver was blind. Class E-1 atlantics were camel backs! (3 built - sold rather quickly) Using the smaller boiler with a KW trailing truck will give you an approximation of an E-5 - but that's another story. Dick Ross Cleveland !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: lpmorgan@iquest.net Date: 17 Jul 97 19:38:15 UT Subject: Pennsy in Indiana (Was RE:What a find--"The Long Trains Roll"!!!) Content-Length: 4327 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------748A02A72A8A515A9DD82711 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit TVondruska@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 97-07-15 00:09:51 EDT, you write: > > << What may not be well know is there was a second landing, in > Florida, > with much the same goals. The second landing was totally unobserved. > The > FBI only learned about it from debriefing the Germans from the first > landing. I read a nonfiction book about it way back in the early > sixties. I can no longer recall the title or author. Perhaps some one > else on this list has a better memmory. > -- > Larry Morgan >> > > >From what I have read, happily the Abwehr, Germany's WWII foriegn > intelligence service, was greatly hampered by the complete coopting of > its > British spy network, use of communications that were easily decrypted > and > stafffed by professionals whose support of their government seems to > rannged > from who did not zealously embrace Nazism to many who worked in > opposition to > it. Otherwise we might not have either Gallitizin or Hellsgate today. > > Greenfield, Indiana. Gee, that brings back memories. A city park just > a block > or so north of U.S. 40 was a frequent lunch stop along with > Knightstown > Spring in pre-Interstate 70 days as my family drove along the > Panhandle's > Columbus-St. Louis main as we crossed Indiana and Illinois on trips > from > Dayton to visit Mom's folks and siblings in St. Louis. Because of > these twice > yearly or more trips from 1955 to 1971 or 1972, I became more familiar > with > the Pennsylvania than any other railroad because it seemed that when > we were > outside of cities, I could see the Panhandle main from U.S. 40 nearly > the > entire way from Richmond, Ind., to St. Louis. U.S. 40 crossed the > Mississippi > on Veterans' Memorial Bridge, about five blocks north of the Eads > bridge used > by the PRR. > I'm mainly interested in Lines West. Can you tell me anything about > the > Panhandle Lines in eastern and southern Indiana. I'm interested in > learning > more about the Jeffersonville, Madison & Indianapolis, the Madison > branch, > the ?Shelbyville? branch that ran northeast from Columbus (Ind.) > through > Shelbyville and Rushville to the PCC&St.L main at Dublin Jct. just > west of > Richmond, and the Chicago-Cincinnati passenger mainline that passed > through > Richmond, New Castle, Anderson and Kokomo. > Thanx in advance for any help! > > Tom V. > > P.S. James Whitcomb Riley means more than an NYC nametrain to me. Mom > used to > recite "Li'l Orphan Annie" and other of his poems to me and my > brothers when > we were young. Stopping in Greenfield made me take a little more > notice of > him than other writers. The park is still there and still makes a good stop for those that can find it. It is not quite as peaceful as it used to be, but it is a fun place for kids and recreation Riley's home is still visited by many. Fewer have read his poems than in the past. The Pennsy tracks were removed a decade or so ago. That was a shame. We could have used a ligt rail commuter line if nothing else. Those lines were incredibly level. In Indiana, the law does make "rails to trails" a possibility, so we did not even gain that. I have not been following the Pennsy very long. I have little knowledge of the old Pennsy in Indiana, and not too many contacts. My family had no railroad history. Perhaps I will get the opportunity to study in the right time. My wife and I would like to meet other couples interested in checking out the historical Pennsy railroad sites in Indiana. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS --------------748A02A72A8A515A9DD82711 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Larry P. Morgan Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Larry P. Morgan n: ;Larry P. Morgan email;internet: lpmorgan@iquest.net x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE end: vcard --------------748A02A72A8A515A9DD82711-- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CrichlowDL@aol.com Date: 17 Jul 97 21:45:01 UT Subject: Re: Last call for objections re: CD-ROM Project Content-Length: 151 I was away and missed your deadline. Please use a hybrid format that enables both Mac and Wintel users to take advantage of the CD. Doug Crichlow !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 17 Jul 97 22:48:14 UT Subject: Re: Modeling a Lines West "E7" Atlantic Content-Length: 1935 Now that the conversation has turned to Atlantic type steam power. I would appreciate some comments on the E5 that I have very little information on. I believe I have some photos of them in books and films. They seem to look like (to me) a slim boilered E6 (but are not). Are these conversions of earlier class E motive power? This has always been a gap in my knowledge of the Pennsy Atlantic types. Thanks in advance folks. Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ---------- > From: VVA249@aol.com > To: Members of group > Subject: Re: Modeling a Lines West "E7" Atlantic > Date: Thursday, July 17, 1997 2:36 PM > > HWF is correct - the E-2/ E-3 - E-7 Atlantics had a traling axel which > pivoted vertically - but not horizontally (ie did not rotate) - this gives > you an Atlantic which actually have the fixed wheelbase of Pacific or Ten > Wheeler. > Note that DA72JMK said he used the K-4 WHEEL - not trailing truck on his > conversion. The Mantua model actually has a trailing truck - but as I recall > (long time since I was in HO) it is - like the old Roundhouse (MDC) set up > to represent an inside bearing "bogie" truck - with the rod details cast into > side. The PRR Atlantic used by the Strasburg - imitation 7002 - was an > example of this class - if you happened to photograph it. The rigid trailing > axel made it perfect for Strasburg - where it was backing up half the time. > Believe it or not Pennsy actually had a 19th century class of Atlantics > with a BLIND DRIVER - these were locomotives where the lead truck was on a > fixed pivot (rather than sliding) and lead driver was blind. Class E-1 > atlantics were camel backs! (3 built - sold rather quickly) > Using the smaller boiler with a KW trailing truck will give you an > approximation of an E-5 - but that's another story. > Dick Ross > Cleveland > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 18 Jul 97 06:57:39 UT Subject: Re: P2K E7's Content-Length: 587 Looked in MR at ads for existing E7s. Standard Hobby Supply has powered A's for $54.95; dummy B's for $29.95. That's were my K4 came from, and they were real friendly and prompt. Leonard's Train World, a firm I have no experience with, is showing powered A's for $49.95; dummy B's for $24.95. These bear, by far, the retail prices of $90 and $45, respectively. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 18 Jul 97 10:29:50 UT Subject: Re: P2K E7's Content-Length: 482 > > From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org > > > I seem to recall several retailers selling the E8s at around $50. I > presume > > the E7s would be similar. > > I was quoting an existing E7 retail of $90. I believe the E8s are > significantly less at list. Hence, the discount on the E7s would be more > than the $50 available on the E8s. My confirmation from Central Hobby Supply was $69 for the E7A, I wanna say $37 for the E7B, and $68 for the GP9. -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 18 Jul 97 12:05:35 UT Subject: P2K E7s Content-Length: 424 Just to be sure...I checked Rich Orr's "All Time Diesel Roster" (which I finally reposted to "KC" last night [http://prr.dsop.com/motiveops]) and the road numbers that P2K plans to offer the E7s in are all accurate #'s for this unit. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 18 Jul 97 13:03:12 UT Subject: Re: PRR Indianapolis Content-Length: 486 I recently saw a online photo of a Lines West keystone in a concrete retaining wall near Indy's Union Station. Is it still there, too? When is the demolition going to take place? What is the building authority. Has anybody contacted the Indianapolis chapter of the NRHS? I was going to head west this afternoon in search of the PRR depots in Trotwood, O., and Brookville, O. If there's time sounds like I better plan a longer trip on U.S. 40 with the trusty Pentax. Tom V. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 18 Jul 97 13:03:50 UT Subject: Re: CD Project is a "GO" Content-Length: 722 Jerry, Don't get paranoid. I want to order it but I'm making quite an investment in my "cheap" fleet of locomotives. Upgrading the MDC kits to flywheel drive, Superdetailing the Bower Consolidation and Penn Line Atlantic and getting the redesigned Decapod boiler and its super deatil kit will set me back more than $300. After comparing the running gear offered with the kits, I'm thinking about using Bowser's gear on the MDC kits. That's probably another $50. And, gee I hate making these decisions. I'd like to get in on the ground level. Often these document are good sources of general information. AND I HATE having to search for a volume I had a chance to buy. I need to cogitate some more. Tom !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 18 Jul 97 13:32:15 UT Subject: Re: Pennsy in Indiana (Was RE:What a find--"The Long Trains Roll"!!!) Content-Length: 847 In a message dated 97-07-17 21:19:59 EDT, you write: << My wife and I would like to meet other couples interested in checking out the historical Pennsy railroad sites in Indiana. -- >> Larry, There's a reason to head to the Ohio River other than those gambling boats with the incessant commercials and billboards. Madison, Ind.,'s PRR line has the steepest grade -- 5.86 percent -- found on any U.S. Class I railroad. it climbed 400 feet vertically in little more than 7,000 feet horizontally to crest the bluffs lining the north bank of the Ohio. The only two SD7s purchased by the PRR were specially ballasted to 320,000 lbs and assigned to dedicated helper duty on THE HILL. Don't know how Madison's octagonal depot fared in the flooding last spring. The Madison Co. Convention & Visitor's bureau has a Web site. Tom V. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 18 Jul 97 14:20:28 UT Subject: Re: CD Project is a "GO" Content-Length: 1005 From: TVondruska@aol.com > I'd like to get in on the ground level. Often these document are good sources > of general information. AND I HATE having to search for a volume I had a > chance to buy. Tom, and others: Volume I will not come close to filling a CD. Volume II - in about six months - will include all of Volume I plus new material. Perhaps there will be a time when a new volume does not include all of the material from its predecessor, but that won't be the case with Volume II. This is not a "money making" venture. Therefore, I don't care how many -- or how few -- copies I sell. Unless you foresee this becoming a collector's item 8-) I'd say save your money and wait for Volume II. BTW: Many actually do Volume II around December 1....in time for holiday gift-giving. ;-) --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 18 Jul 97 14:52:33 UT Subject: Notables from Auction Web Content-Length: 1006 Just perusing Auction Web (http://www2.ebay.com/aw/) where items are bought and sold electronically. Worth a visit if you've never been. Another list member turned me on to it two weeks ago...I picked up a copy of "Pullman Standard Volume 4". Anyway, I know some of these items will interest some readers: Little Miami Rail Road Stock Certificate (item #hcf86105) 1963 Pennsylvania RR Train Schedule (item #wva017) 1943 Pennsylvania Railroad Ad WWII *pic* (item #lme0123) PRR First Aid Kit(PIC) (item #gow809622) PRR Guide to Washington (item #bfe21674) ~~PA RR GOLD SUGAR POURER~~ (item #piz0186) Pennsylvania Railroad Co. Stock Cert. *PIC* (item #afg70262) PENNSYLVANIA RR Cocktail Glass (PIC) (item #ffl56473) HO Scale PRR FM Diesel MIB (item #prj4194) RIVAROSSI GG-1 Electric (item #qcu84801) --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: 18 Jul 97 15:21:49 UT Subject: Re: Modeling a Lines West "E-7" Atlantic Content-Length: 884 The E-5 Atlantic was built new as such - still slim boilered it DID have a pivoting trailing truck - and was used as a "test bed" for the KW type trailing truck - I believe all of them were eventually so equipped. Since my computer is at the office - and my train books are at home - I'll dig out some references and post them in a day or two. For those of you wondering about the STEAM E-2, E-3 & E-7 there are dandy color photos of "replacement" 7002 -actually an E-7 with an E-2 builders plate! - on the Strasburg on pages 90-91 & 95 in "The History of the Pennsylvania Railroad" by Timothy Jacobs. 1988 - Brompton Books, 15 Sherwood Place, Greenwich Conn. By the way - as far as I know - the Red and yellow circular numbers plates (for passenger locomotives) are a creation of the Strasburg and not the Pennsylvania Railroad Dick Ross Cleveland !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: 19 Jul 97 12:20:45 UT Subject: PRR Atlantic Types Content-Length: 2143 In response to a diminishing number of requests here's some further info on PRR 20th Century Atlantics - All comments exclude any pre E-1 types, those acquired through merger or purchase of other lines and "experimentals" other than the first three 3 E-6s and Type E-4 designed but not built. All Pennsy Atlantics used 80" drivers Types E-1 through E-5 and E- 7 and had 65 1/2" Boiler Diameter (vs 76 3/4" on E-6) Types E-1 through E-3 and E-7 had fixed trailing trucks and Side valves with Stephenson valve gear. Type E-5 built in 1910 ( 7 units) 1911 ( 4 units) and 1913 ( 1 unit ) was a transition design. While it continued to use the smaller boiler design, it marked the first use of the pivoting trailing truck, solid lead truck wheels, Walschaerts valve gear and Piston valves on PRR Atlantics. The trailing truck - as built - on the E-5 was fabricated (Riveted) Kiesel design which was also applied to the first three E-6 locomotives built in 1910 & 1912. The KW (cast) trailing truck was developed by the Double Body Bolster Co of St Louis Mo in 1913-1914 and was tested on E-5 Atlantics - before it was applied to the E-6s. All 80 "production" E-6s built in 1914 recieved this design as - eventually - all 12 E-5s and the original 3 E-6s - because of its' superior riding characteristcs. This truck became standard for all PRR types with two wheels trailing - E-6 (4-4-2) K-4 & K-5 (4-6-2) L-1(2-8-2) and N-1 (2-10-2) Some - including Fred Westig - in "Apex of the Atlantics" questioned the construction of Class E-5 - with the First E-6 already on the drawing board and/or in road service - but it is my opinion that the Railroad needed the extra 12 units and that they saw it as an opportunity to test the new trailing truck designs and Walschaerts valve gear with piston valves - which they were applying to Consolidations - on 80" drivers -n high speed service. A Quick "overview" of Pennsy Atlantics can be found on pages 128-129 on "Pennsy Power" by Stauffer - with photos of all clasess mentioned plus Alco "experimentals" E-28 and E-29. Dick Ross !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: 19 Jul 97 14:10:36 UT Subject: E-6 Atlantic Variants Content-Length: 2219 If the U S Air Force had built the E-6 The first one 5075 (re # 1067 12/11) - built in 1910 would have been the XE-6 with two (89 & 1092) built in 1912 called YE-6s and of course the "production" run of 1914 would have been E-6s The First E-6 was just that - not superheated - and without the "s" until it was converted in 1913. The first 3 E-6s were built with Fabricated trailing trucks, safety valves on the steam domes and boiler tubes 13' 8 5/8" - As the 80 "production" E-6s were built - with 15' boiler tube lengths - the first three had their saftey valves and trailing trucks modified but kept the shorter tube lengths throughout their careers. As far as I have been able to determine this detail was not visible or measurable on the exterior of the engine. All 83 locomotives were built with oil headlights and circular numberplates. The oil headlights were replaced in the early 1920's - in many cases the electric headlight was mounted on the much wider oil bracket for many years. The date for Keystone number plates is a bit harder to determine - # 460 still had her circular plate as late as the 1927 "Lindberg Special" One other intesting fact is that once the railroad decided to proceede with it's "Heavy Atlantic" the 80 units were built consecutively between February and August of 1914 (Juaniata c/n 2779-2815; 2817-2824 and 2826-2860) with only two two interruptions - the first L1s (c/n 2816 - road # 1752) in April and the first K-4s (c/n 2825 road # 1737) in May 0f 1914. The E's built prior to the K-4 had a "high hat" circular sand dome -which looked like those on concurrent Consolidations - while those after the K-4 had the cast "saddle" type sand dome used on the K-4 and L-1. In another attempt to trip up later day Pennsy modelers - it turns out only 1/2 of the prototype engines match the Penn Line Bowser H-9 casting ! Locomotive # 1092 was equipped with "rotary" valves very early on - photos show she still had the fabricated trailing truck. Rotary valves used the Walschaerts motion but had a device on top of the cylinders which looked like a stoker motor. This experiment was not succesfull and was short lived. Dick Ross !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ajc5150@net66.com Date: 19 Jul 97 19:03:56 UT Subject: Good and Bad News for PRR HO Modelers Content-Length: 1814 I went to the St. Louis GATS show today and saw several things, ranging from real good news to very bad news. First, the good good news. I bought some Red Caboose X-29 Boxcars. About the only thing I can compare them to is the P2K Mather stock cars. Lots of tiny pieces. The brake gear on the X29 is fantastic. At the show, I saw the cars with corrugated doors, and on my 2 1/2 hr drive home, I was trying to think of where I can get some Creco doors - more appropriate for my era. I got home and opened the kits and they come with BOTH kinds of doors. They also come with Accumate couplers. Nice job Red Caboose. Next, I found a guy with about 50 IHC passenger cars lettered for PRR. I remember when the only 12-1 Pullman you could get was lettered for James Logan. They had about 6 different 12-1s with different names. He also had one painted silver with simulated Tuscan corrugations. For streamlineds, he had cars painted in other road paint schemes but lettered for PRR. If you have the PRRT&HS Passenger Car Book, you can see some photos of these cars for cross-country service. IHC had a car painted in a UP scheme and another one in two tone grey, like NYC. I don't know what road that is for, but it must surely not be NYC. I found several vendors with plenty of P2K E7s and E8/9s. There were plenty of roadnames available, even PRR single stripe. The going price was $30 for the E8s and $40 for the E7s. (E7Bs were $25) I already have a pair of PRR single stripe, so I didn't buy any more. Now, for the bad news. I found a guy with a P2K 5 stripe E8, but he wanted $85 for it and wouldn't budge on his price. I passed. Now for the really bad news. I actually bought one of those $30 E8s lettered in NYC Lightning Stripe. Flame Away. Andy. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 20 Jul 97 00:18:42 UT Subject: P2K E8 prices Content-Length: 677 To Andy and the group, No flames Andy, a bargain is a bargain! M.B. Klein in Baltimore MD, purchased a LARGE supply of Proto 2000 EMD, E8 models according to a fellow model rail and store employee. Most of what was left that I saw was CB&Q. Every time I went back in the store their would be more of a different road. If your in the market for a Proto 2000 E8, and don't mind the paint and detail work, you might want to try this store. M.B. Klein is listed in MR and MRC hobby shop directories. You might get a really good deal on their new-old stock. ************************************************ Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: railpix@philly.infi.net Date: 20 Jul 97 00:40:45 UT Subject: RAILPIX-SITE-UPDATE Content-Length: 1151 Hello all stations; New Images on my site, Amtrak GP9-#773 Broadway Limited in the Penna. mountains Conrail Bustleton Branch derailment 6/95 Amtrak E-60 # pulling GP7 #766 Conrail #9413 with a circus train BN caboose #10500 UP-"Have Train Will Travel" Caboose W+W Caboose C-2013 A Penn Central Metroliner Postcard on the RailCard Page. Enjoy ! Stan -- *********************************************************** -----STAN'S RAILPIX---------- Railroad Photo Gallery http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/1030/railpix.html ****************************************************** ---New Free RAILPIX RAILCARD Page----- ---{Send Free RailCards}--- http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/1030/cards.html *************************************** Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel, is a train coming the other way. *********************************************************** !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 20 Jul 97 00:56:44 UT Subject: Detail Hound Humor Content-Length: 3584 Tips on detailing a Proto 2000 EMD, E7 or E8 passenger, diesel-electric locomotive model. >From the I.M. Nutts article in Super-Duper Model Magazine. (Vol 3.2222-4a23334, out of print just before you tried to buy it) And now to whip that puppy into PRR Shape! Since some folks are going to want to tear half of the thing up to change pilots, add front lifting eyes and numerous other detail. (including removing the power from the middle axle on each truck to make a true A-1-A) why not buy cheap and rip away? Also, for the detail hounds- remember not to put an E7 body on an E8 chassis or the opposite because the E7 used belt driven auxiliaries in the engine room and the E8 had more modern driven auxiliaries. (someone might look into that scale thickness porthole or rectangular window on the carbody and notice this glaring error) Also make sure the correct Woodward governor is used on each of the twin 567, 12 cylinder prime movers. If the Woodward governor has been factory rebuilt at Woodward in Ft. Collins Colorado, and applied to one of the prime movers, you should paint this governor a medium-dark green color with a little gloss to it. (modeling the oil sight glass on the governor sets a pro apart from the rest!) If you intend to weather the model, take into consideration the route that your model EMD unit has been traveling. If for instance, it traveled the Pennsy in the last days before the merger, more brush and weed scratches and scrapes should be evident on the paint. The locomotive should also show signs of the slop and mud pumping from between the ties of poorly tamped and ballast track when the engines weight passes over the poor roadbed. Brake shoes on the trucks should show wear! They use them on the prototype! Get yourself a few used EMD brake shoes of the period and take them to a metallurgical lab for analysis. This way you can make sure that yours are leaving the correct dust and grime around the wheels as they wear through their life cycle. All brake hoses, M.U. connections, should have the brand of the manufacturer molded into the outside of the rubber casing. Cabs of the model locomotives should have a crew. These folks like to have a grip with them when not assigned local service. How would you like to travel a whole division and not have a toilet kit or a change of clothes? So put a model grip in there for each of the crew as needed. When you model crews, remember the maturity of the crew member being modeled. You needed seniority to get the crack passenger runs. No greens-horns here in these new EMD passenger diesels. Make sure if you are modeling fuel and lube oil stains on the locomotive that you use railroad grade fuels and lubricants. Don't use the plain #2d fuel stains when a heavier API gravity fuel was used in your modeling era or on the specific division or branch used. Another almost never applied but important detail, should be the clean spots on the grabs where the crew have wiped them clean with their gloved or bare hands as they climb around the locomotive. (Make sure to get some bare metal showing where constant abrasion of shoe soles have worn through the paint entering and exiting the cab.) More on paint- when a REAL locomotive is new from the builder or fresh from the paint shops IT IS NOT PAINTED FLAT WITH 23,567 BOTTLES OF FLOQUIL. Paint that puppy GLOSSY! (If you take this too serious, you need a break!) Happy Modeling! Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 20 Jul 97 10:01:43 UT Subject: Re: network solutions snafu Content-Length: 4334 From: TVondruska@aol.com > Jerry, > > been getting "can't find URL" message for several days now when I try to get > into Keystone Crossings. I'm assuming that it's because of the Network > Solutions' sodtware problem Thursday but the news reports said the glitch has > been fixed. Is this the son of you AOL nightmare? I've actually received numerous queries about access problems. Tom's query was just the most recent. I spent numerous hours troubleshooting the other night. Everything at my site seemed fine, but mail wouldn't resolve DNS and process out. It clogged my server and I couldn't figure it out. The article below explains what the problem was -- at InterNIC. It can take up to one week for all problems to clear up...the maximum amount of time an ISP can cache DNS information. >> InterNIC problems slow Net By Janet Kornblum July 17, 1997, 4:00 p.m. PT update Netizens have been encountering widespread difficulty reaching Web sites, sending email, and using the Internet in general today due to the ripple effect of a database problem combined with "human error" at the InterNIC. Last night, an Ingres database failed, resulting in corrupt ".com" and ".net" zone files, according to David H. Holtzman, senior president of engineering for Network Solutions (which runs the InterNIC), and David Graves, an InterNIC business manager. The InterNIC assigns the Internet's most popular domains. Its name servers are used to translate the names to actual addresses on the Net. Although the name files were only unavailable for four hours, it affected the Net for much longer than that, much in the same way that a huge accident on a major freeway will tie up traffic for hours even after the roadway is clear. People were reporting problems reaching email addresses and domains for several hours yesterday, probably because their ISPs kept zone files cached, which meant the bad files stayed within the systems. The errant zone files should never have been released, but they were, Graves said. "As soon as that occurred, our quality-assurance software raised alarms. Despite all the alarms and warnings, the system administrator on duty allowed the release of the zone files without making sure they were regenerating and without bothering to verify the integrity of those files." That happened at last night at 11:30 PT. When the files were released, it meant that Internet servers looking for an address ending in ".net" and ".com" would be told that the address did not exist. It is difficult to gauge how many people were affected by the partial outage because many servers cache addresses ahead of time. But many don't. Judging by email and complaints, at least thousands of people saw their email bounce and had trouble surfing sites. Graves added the InterNIC realized the problem immediately and resolved it four hours later at 3:30 a.m. PT. But there was a widespread ripple effect that meant many people were still having problems after that time. Graves insisted that today's problem was not "technological." Instead, he said, "the reason it happened was human error. All the protective technology worked." This problem comes on top of at least a week of negative publicity for the InterNIC. In the past week, Netizens have complained about several different issues relating to the domain registrar. Yesterday, an Internet service provider complained that the InterNIC canceled its domain name without warning; on Monday, InterNIC's rival domain registry, AlterNIC, redirected users from "www.internic.net" to its own site last weekend in what it called a "protest." Today's problem also highlights an increasingly worrisome concern: that on the Net, one glitch--attributed to a technical malfunction or human error--can have a broad impact. Whether it's a router that goes down or a name server, when something breaks people all over the world feel it. Because of latency and the way sites are cached, they often feel the effect for a long time. >> ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BOBV@nantucket.net Date: 20 Jul 97 10:20:11 UT Subject: GG1 Horn question. Content-Length: 107 How did the horn on a GG1 operate? Air or electric? Does anyone have a wav file of it? - Bob Vogel !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: harmanta@monroe.army.mil Date: 21 Jul 97 07:56:51 UT Subject: RE: P2K E8 prices Content-Length: 1340 Harry, and All Y'All (that's the Southern plural form of "you all"), been down that road. Indeed, MB Klein has/did have P2K E8's at some of the lowest prices around. Got a few of them myself. What I'm looking for is bullet proof pieces that I won't cry over after drilling holes in the roof for the train phone antenna and getting some of the uprights out of line. I also prefer to fabricate my own PRR-style pilot, and do some other things that almost beg for something cheap (my middle name). I really wasn't too impressed with the Pennsy paint on the first run of E8's from P2K. I always thought AHM/IHC and Con Cor paint on the old Model Power E's looked better. Just my opinion, not shared by others. Thanks for the heads up. Now if you see any Bowser T-1's, whole, or in pieces, at scrap prices, please let me know. Andrew Cheap (I told you) Harmantas, SPF, among others. > ---------- > Klein in Baltimore MD, purchased > a LARGE supply of Proto 2000 EMD, > E8 models according to a fellow model > rail and store employee. > If your in the market for > a Proto 2000 E8, and don't mind the paint > and detail work, you might want to try this > store. M.B. Klein is listed in MR and MRC > ************************************************ > Harry Fitch > hfitch@maranatha.net > Acts 4:12 > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 21 Jul 97 16:32:16 UT Subject: List server Content-Length: 944 The InterNIC problem from last week is once again rearing it's ugly head against the mail servers of the world...mine included. The underlying problem is that the InterNIC is like the Internet's master telephone book. When its database goes down, e-mail servers don't know where to send e-mail. E-mail piles up, and can even timeout before the problem is corrected. The queues for both lists had 900+ messages waiting to go out...then they timed-out post by post. There are now only 91 messages in the queue...until I post this one. I am telling you this because probably no posts from 7/21 ever made it out to the list!!! If you made a post, please repost. The InterNIC problem is "reported" to be clear now. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Richard_Toplan@pcmailgw.ml.com Date: 21 Jul 97 17:10:46 UT Subject: Re: PRR Steam Locomotive Classification Scheme Content-Length: 197 If anyone has the complete Pennsy steam locomotive classification scheme, I would be most grateful if they would e-mail it to me at richard_toplan@ml.com Thank you !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 21 Jul 97 18:27:07 UT Subject: Model Railroad Detail Humor Content-Length: 3649 Tips on detailing a Proto 2000 EMD, E7 or E8 passenger, diesel-electric locomotive model for the Pennsylvania Railroad. >From the I.M. Nutts article of the same title in Super-Duper Model Magazine. (Vol 3.2222-4a23334, out of print just before you tried to buy it) And now to whip that puppy into PRR Shape! Since some folks are going to want to tear half of the thing up to change pilots, add front lifting eyes and numerous other detail. (including removing the power from the middle axle on each truck to make a true A-1-A) why not buy cheap and rip away? Also, for the detail hounds- remember not to put an E7 body on an E8 chassis or the opposite because the E7 used belt driven auxiliaries in the engine room and the E8 had more modern driven auxiliaries. (someone might look into that scale thickness porthole or rectangular window on the carbody and notice this glaring error) Also make sure the correct Woodward governor is used on each of the twin 567, 12 cylinder prime movers. If the Woodward governor has been factory rebuilt at Woodward in Ft. Collins Colorado, and applied to one of the prime movers, you should paint this governor a medium-dark green color with a little gloss to it. (modeling the oil sight glass on the governor sets a pro apart from the rest!) If you intend to weather the model, take into consideration the route that your model EMD unit has been traveling. If for instance, it traveled the Pennsy in the last days before the merger, more brush and weed scratches and scrapes should be evident on the paint. The locomotive should also show signs of the slop and mud pumping from between the ties of poorly tamped and ballast track when the engines weight passes over the poor roadbed. Brake shoes on the trucks should show wear! They use them on the prototype! Get yourself a few used EMD brake shoes of the period and take them to a metallurgical lab for analysis. This way you can make sure that yours are leaving the correct dust and grime around the wheels as they wear through their life cycle. All brake hoses, M.U. connections, should have the brand of the manufacturer molded into the outside of the rubber casing. Cabs of the model locomotives should have a crew. These folks like to have a grip with them when not assigned local service. How would you like to travel a whole division and not have a toilet kit or a change of clothes? So put a model grip in there for each of the crew as needed. When you model crews, remember the maturity of the crew member being modeled. You needed seniority to get the crack passenger runs. No greens-horns here in these new EMD passenger diesels. Make sure if you are modeling fuel and lube oil stains on the locomotive that you use railroad grade fuels and lubricants. Don't use the plain #2d fuel stains when a heavier API gravity fuel was used in your modeling era or on the specific division or branch used. Another almost never applied but important detail, should be the clean spots on the grabs where the crew have wiped them clean with their gloved or bare hands as they climb around the locomotive. (Make sure to get some bare metal showing where constant abrasion of shoe soles have worn through the paint entering and exiting the cab.) More on paint- when a REAL locomotive is new from the builder or fresh from the paint shops IT IS NOT PAINTED FLAT WITH 23,567 BOTTLES OF FLOQUIL. Paint that puppy GLOSSY! (If you take this too serious, you need a break!) Model Railroading is Fun! Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: 21 Jul 97 19:00:13 UT Subject: Re: PRR Steam Locomotive Classification Scheme Content-Length: 1734 Off the top of my head - 20th Century Pennsy Steam and electric A Switcher 0-4-0 Classes A-1 to A-5 B Switcher 0-6-0 Classes B-1 to B-8 + B-28 & B-29 (B-1 was Electric) C Switcher 0-8-0 Class C-1 D American 4-4-0 Classes D-1 through D-16 E Atlantic 4-4-2 Classes E-1 through E-6 F Mogul 2-6-0 Class F-1 through F-3 G Ten Wheeler 4-6-0 Class G-1 through G-5 H Consolidation 2-8-0 Class H-1 to H-10 I Decapod 2-10-0 Class I-1 J Prarie 2-6-2 Only experimentals - class vacated by 1940 - J Texas 2-10-4 Class J-1 K Pacific 4-6-2 Classes K-1 through K-5 + K-28 and K-29 Experimentals L Mikado 2-8-2 Classes L-1 & L-2 + L-5 Electric M Mountain 4-8-2 Class M-1 O Jubilee 4-4-4 Class O-1 Electric P Baltic 4-6-4 Class P-5 Electric (aka Hudson on some minor roads) Q-1 Duplex 4-6-4-4 Apparently Pennsy considered both of Q-2 Duplex 4-4-6-4 of these types to be 4-10-4 R Northern 4-8-4 Class R-1 Electric S-1 Duplex 6-4-4-6 The "Big Engine" S-2 Turbine 6-8-6 Both S-1 and S-2 were one of a kind T Duplex 4-4-4-4 Class T-1 BB-1 Electric 0-6-0+0-6-0 Later seperated to become class B-1 DD-1 Electric 4-4-4-4 Side Rod Electrics FF-1 Articulated 2-6+6-2 FF-2 Electric 2-6+6-2 Ex Milwaukee road 2-6-6-2 GG-1 Electric 4-6+6-4 HC-1 Articulated 2-8-8-0 HH-1 Articulated 2-8-8-2 Ex N & W Dick Ross !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CrichlowDL@aol.com Date: 21 Jul 97 21:43:07 UT Subject: Re: PRR Indianapolis Content-Length: 1049 In a message dated 07/18/97 17:05:12, you wrote: <> Tom: I'm not familiar with the "Lines West" signage you mentioned. However, the retaining wall I mentioned is really the last of numerous downtown RR markings that have been destroyed. It strikes me as silly that Indianapolis spent public funds to preserve an early White Castle restaurant building and a large neon 7Up sign...but apparently thinks nothing of obliterating RR artifacts. Like most cities founded in the early 1800's...Indianapolis was shaped im myriad ways by the RR industry. Doug !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: lpmorgan@iquest.net Date: 21 Jul 97 22:03:19 UT Subject: Re: PRR Indianapolis Content-Length: 2179 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2C72DAA4D98F56E5C77D0358 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit CrichlowDL@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 07/18/97 17:05:12, you wrote: > > < retaining wall near Indy's Union Station. Is it still there, too? When > is the > demolition going to take place? What is the building authority. Has > anybody > contacted the Indianapolis chapter of the NRHS? > > I was going to head west this afternoon in search of the PRR depots in > Trotwood, O., and Brookville, O. If there's time sounds like I better > plan a > longer trip on U.S. 40 with the trusty Pentax.>> > > Tom: > > I'm not familiar with the "Lines West" signage you mentioned. However, > the > retaining wall I mentioned is really the last of numerous downtown RR > markings that have been destroyed. > > It strikes me as silly that Indianapolis spent public funds to > preserve an > early White Castle restaurant building and a large neon 7Up sign...but > apparently thinks nothing of obliterating RR artifacts. Like most > cities > founded in the early 1800's...Indianapolis was shaped im myriad ways > by the > RR industry. > > Doug That signage is scheduled to disappear on Wednesday of this week. I took several pictures of one of these today. I hope to get the other tomorrow. I will post these at some time in the future, but it will be some time. Since I have access to no scanner, I have to get the pictures on a CD. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS --------------2C72DAA4D98F56E5C77D0358 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Larry P. Morgan Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Larry P. Morgan n: ;Larry P. Morgan email;internet: lpmorgan@iquest.net x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE end: vcard --------------2C72DAA4D98F56E5C77D0358-- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: wa4bpw@Shelby.Net Date: 21 Jul 97 23:04:20 UT Subject: LOOKING FOR TRENTON NJ PRR YARD PICTURES FROM 1963 Content-Length: 259 HAVE BEEN TRYING TO FIND PICTURES OF THE PRR YARD IN AND AROUND TRENTON NJ IN THE 1963 ON TIME SPAN ALSO THE PRR GG1 HAS FASCINATED ME SINCE I FIRST LAYED EYES ON MY FIRST ONE I NOW HAVE AN ALMOST NOTHING BUT GG1 FILM THAT I WILL BE GLAD TO SHARE WITH !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 21 Jul 97 23:07:51 UT Subject: Re: PRR Steam Locomotive Classification Scheme Content-Length: 1094 First, we must attach a date to the steam classification method. The PRR changed the classification system in the early 1900s and reclassed all existing locomotives. The modern scheme is A 0-4-0 B 0-6-0 C 0-8-0 D 4-4-0 E 4-4-2 F 2-6-0 G 4-6-0 H 2-8-0 I 2-10-0 J 2-10-4 K 4-6-2 L 2-8-2 M 4-8-2 N 2-10-2 Q1 4-6-4-4 Q2 4-4-6-4 S1 6-4-4-6 S2 6-8-6 T 4-4-4-4 CC 0-8-8-0 HC 2-8-8-0 HH 2-8-8-2 Originnaly all locomotives regardless of method of power were classed using the same system. the following electrics demonstrate this and fill in the missing letters O 4-4-4 P 4-6-4 DD 4-4-4-4 dON'T ASK WHY THE T WASN'T A DD FF 2-6-6-2 The different classes with the same wheel arrangement were sequentially numbered. Minor variations in the body or equipment were indicated with a small letter. A "s" indicated that superheater had been added. There were oddball classes such as the J28, E27, E28, E29 etc which were inherited from some roads when they were absorbed by the Pennsy. Rich Orr GG 4-6-6-4 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 22 Jul 97 07:00:03 UT Subject: RE: Bachmann Spectrum Passenger Cars Content-Length: 1199 THIS IS A REPOST FROM YESTERDAY; I BELIEVE IT WAS AMONG THE LOST... Related to the upcoming re-release of PRR passenger cars by Bachmann: There will be a coach (3 #s), combine, diner, and observation. If the cars are reruns of the previous ones, Andy Miller previously ID'd these as classes P70, PB70, D78, and Z74 (business car) respectively. Spectrum is releasing each of these six cars in two forms: "pre-war" and "post-war". Prototypically, "pre-war" was up to the end of WWII. "Post-war" was thereafter. I think the cars themselves remained the same, the only difference being the paint job. "Pre-war" paint was rather drab: black roof, undercarriage, and trucks; tuscan sides, no stripes. "Post-war" paint added three stripes on the sides. Notable exceptions were special trains, such as the "Fleet of Modernism". (Andy, others, correct me if I'm wrong.) Is the paint scheme what differentiates the two series ("pre-war" vs. "post-war") offered by Spectrum? ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: 22 Jul 97 07:14:09 UT Subject: Re: PRR Steam Locomotive Classification Scheme Content-Length: 325 Rich Orr Wrote "don't ask why T-1 wasn't a DD-2" Actually Rich my question would have been If Q-1 and Q-2 were both regarded as same (2-10-4) and S-1 and S-1 were both regarded as 6-8-6 Why wasn't the T-1 an R-2? (4-8-4) Especially since class R was like S and Q - occupied by a single locomotive ! Dick Ross Cleveland !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 22 Jul 97 07:58:50 UT Subject: Past issues of the Keystone Content-Length: 506 Someone e-mailed me to my business address over the weekend the indeces for the issues of "The Keystone" that I needed for my listing at "KC". I forwarded them to my home server from work, but the InterNIC domain jinx sent that e-mail into a CyberBlackHole. Whoever sent it, would you please resend it? Thanks. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 22 Jul 97 08:20:57 UT Subject: Upcoming events Content-Length: 638 A few days ago I posted a "timetable" of upcoming events on "KC". Included is "Northern Central Heritage Days", this August in New Freedom, Pa. Take a look. I plan to attend. I have also noted the locations of the next two PRRT&HS annual meetings. However, I do not know the dates of the 1999 event in Altoona, only that it is in the fall. Anyone have exact dates? Please feel free to submit new entries to me at "jerry@dsop.com". Thanks. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rhensley@ecicnet.org Date: 22 Jul 97 09:04:01 UT Subject: Richmond (IN) Division - Delco Content-Length: 1016 I'm looking for the original name of 'Delco Tower' in Anderson IN. Delco Tower was built about 1880 and controlled the Richmond Division from Sulpher Springs Indiana through Anderson to Frankton. It was renamed 'Delco' Tower sometime in the 1920's as Delco Remy Division of General Motors grew in importance. The area in which it was located was know as the 'Junction' until the early 'teens' and it was responsible for the crossing of the Pennsy, NYC, Central Indiana Rwy and Union Traction Co. (Indiana Railroad). Does anyone have an old timetable or any other information showing this? Thanks. Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org Information Systems Specialist - Ball State University - Muncie, IN === http://bsuvc.bsu.edu/~00rphensley/cidwelco.html ================ === The Railroads of Madison County, Indiana ======================= !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 22 Jul 97 09:08:17 UT Subject: RE: Bachmann Spectrum Passenger Cars Content-Length: 1742 Jerry, You can be sure that Bachmann is not releasing new diework. The "new" cars will undoubtedly be just repaints. Only the head end cars (B60s, MB60s,M70s etc) were ever done in "drab" Tuscan red with no striping or ornamentation. I think the "pre-war" scheme B is doing is the same one they did before; namely the three stripes are gold leaf with black edging, and the trucks are painted "Pullman" green. The post- war would have "Delux Gold" (mustard) color stripes. regards Andy Miller >THIS IS A REPOST FROM YESTERDAY; I BELIEVE IT WAS AMONG THE LOST... > >Related to the upcoming re-release of PRR passenger cars by Bachmann: > >There will be a coach (3 #s), combine, diner, and observation. If the cars >are reruns of the previous ones, Andy Miller previously ID'd these as >classes P70, PB70, D78, and Z74 (business car) respectively. Spectrum is >releasing each of these six cars in two forms: "pre-war" and "post-war". > >Prototypically, "pre-war" was up to the end of WWII. "Post-war" was >thereafter. I think the cars themselves remained the same, the only >difference being the paint job. "Pre-war" paint was rather drab: black roof, >undercarriage, and trucks; tuscan sides, no stripes. "Post-war" paint added >three stripes on the sides. Notable exceptions were special trains, such as >the "Fleet of Modernism". (Andy, others, correct me if I'm wrong.) > >Is the paint scheme what differentiates the two series ("pre-war" vs. >"post-war") offered by Spectrum? >----------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton >"Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ >Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! >----------------------------------------------- > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 22 Jul 97 09:14:22 UT Subject: RE: PRR Dining Cars Content-Length: 997 Harold, Are these the D85a cars, Budd Pittsburger, PennTexas, Golden Triangle? If so they would be stainless steel but without fluting on the sides. The PRR painted them originally and therefore ordered the "paneled" sides. regards Andy Miller >Saturday night we took the Florida Central Railroad Dinner Train at Forest >City, Florida (near Orlando). The train consisted of 4 Dining Cars and 2 >locomotives (1 on each end of the train). Cars 300 and 301 were built in 1952 >for the Pennsylvania Rail Road by the Budd Company. They were then owned by >the Penn Central, Amtrak, and finally The New Georgia Rail Road, a tourist >line that ran around the city of Atlanta, which closed their operation a few >years ago and sold off all of their equipment. The interior of the cars are >in emaculate condition. The exteriors have been painted the Florida Centrals >standard red and yellow stripeing. > . . . >Harold >Modeling the PRR Columbia Branch (The Port Road) > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 22 Jul 97 09:16:00 UT Subject: a black hole repost Content-Length: 124 anyone have any suggestions/know of a good pennsy style pilot that could be used on the Proto 2000 E7's and E8's? -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 22 Jul 97 10:02:04 UT Subject: RE: Bachmann Spectrum Passenger Cars Content-Length: 1909 From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org > You can be sure that Bachmann is not releasing new diework. The "new" cars > will undoubtedly be just repaints. > > Only the head end cars (B60s, MB60s,M70s etc) were ever done in "drab" > Tuscan red with no striping or ornamentation. I think the "pre-war" scheme > B is doing is the same one they did before; namely the three stripes are gold > leaf with black edging, and the trucks are painted "Pullman" green. The post- > war would have "Delux Gold" (mustard) color stripes. Okay, let's define "pre-war": According to the "Paint and Lettering" guide sold by the PRRT&HS, Pennsy passenger equipment had all sorts of colors (including the "Pullman" green trucks) up until the late 1930s. Then they went to black trucks and undercarriages. This is what I thought was considered "pre-war". In any case, since I am modeling two trains from the first half of the 1940s, it would seem that the "pre-war" cars would be appropriate...a 1943 "Liberty Limited" and a 1945 "Dominion Express" (or "Northern Express", depending on which direction I run it). My consist report for the second section of the "Liberty" includes three P70 coaches and a D78 diner, of which the Spectrum models will portray. My consist report for the "Dominion" includes a PB70 coach/baggage, three P70s, a D78, and two Z74s (though I will run only one) which the Spectrums will portray. Interestingly, one of the offered numbers in the P70s misses the actual number in the "Dominion" consist by only two -- and it's the last digit! My 1953 "Liberty Limited" will have entirely different (newer classes) cars (most not available in models), powered by an ABA set of P2K E7s. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 22 Jul 97 10:04:34 UT Subject: RE: a black hole repost Content-Length: 477 I used the freight pilot and, with ACC, glued a .015 plastic sheet overlay over it. I then trimmed the overlay to the right shape. It not only has the right contour, and a correct size coupler opening, IT HOLDS PAINT! I had started with the undec E8. That is why I had both pilots and neither was painted. regards Andy Miller >anyone have any suggestions/know of a good pennsy style pilot that could be >used on the Proto 2000 E7's and E8's? > >-D > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hosam@gc.net Date: 22 Jul 97 15:01:02 UT Subject: Postcards Content-Length: 436 Greetings, Check out some of the postcard sellers, they have some very interesting cards concerning railroads, PRR Stations in particular. One URL which I visited was The web auction has a category for railroad stuff which includes postcards. the URL is There are others but I have not visited them as of yet. Good hunting! HOSAM !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: 22 Jul 97 16:24:23 UT Subject: Re: PRR Steam Locomotive Classification Scheme Content-Length: 84 To which add N Santa Fe 2-10-2 N1 (PRR design) N2 (USRA design, later Pennsyfied) !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: 22 Jul 97 19:39:29 UT Subject: Re: PRR Steam Locomotive Classification Scheme Content-Length: 781 In a message dated 97-07-22 04:06:07 EDT, you write: << Subj: Re: PRR Steam Locomotive Classification Scheme Date: 97-07-22 04:06:07 EDT From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Reply-to: PRR-Talk@dsop.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com (Members of group) (BIG SNIP) There were oddball classes such as the J28, E27, E28, E29 etc which were inherited from some roads when they were absorbed by the Pennsy. Rich Orr GG 4-6-6-4 >> The x28/x29 series locomotives were one-off experimentals built for the PRR by the builders to demo new techniques/technology. Alco particularly wanted to get into PRR's roundhouses (filled with Baldwin, Juniata, and some Lima products) and engineered some interesting locomotives for the PRR to try out. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: 22 Jul 97 23:32:30 UT Subject: Re: PRR Steam Locomotive Classification Scheme Content-Length: 160 Also add DD-2 only one was built in Feb. 1938 at Altoona it would of been the freight version of a GG-1 for the proposed electification west of Harrisburg. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 23 Jul 97 08:52:55 UT Subject: Passenger Equipment Roster Content-Length: 1335 A few weeks ago I posted a page (http://prr.dsop.com/passops) that cross-referenced Pennsy passenger car classes with their description and list of available models. That was only a draft. Tonight I plan to further the project with a working prototype. The following are my thoughts, what are your ideas? The main page will have tables for each type of car (baggage, sleeper, etc.). Each of these tables will have several columns: PRR Class, Description, Model Available (yes/no). In the description field, for example, a sleeper would indicate the number and type of rooms it contains. Clicking on the Class cell, which would be a link, would open a page specific to that class of car. This page would include builder information, notes on the class including period used, list subclasses and their differences, car number and name lists, floor plans (graphics), profiles (graphics), and a list of available models for the class. The amount of data contained on the Class pages will vary, depending on the type of car and amount of data available. The data on the main (index) page will be more uniform. Your thoughts? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hebnerj@clark.cc.oh.us Date: 23 Jul 97 13:54:39 UT Subject: cabin question Content-Length: 377 Could anyone explain the differences between the N5A N5D N5E and N5F and the other more common N5 and N5B? Also Is anyone interested that there is a NX23 wartime cabin in Urbana Ohio in fair shape? It seems sound but the wood is weathered. No trucks but upon blocks. There are trees growing up around it but I have a photo from last fall or winter. Jim Hebner !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Richard_Toplan@pcmailgw.ml.com Date: 23 Jul 97 16:02:26 UT Subject: Re: Track Diagrams Content-Length: 262 Would anyone be able to advise me where I might obtain track diagrams of the trackage between Broadway Station and Cooper Tower in Camden, New Jersey during the time the PRSL freight line connected with it? Thanks for your help. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: 23 Jul 97 17:22:16 UT Subject: Re: Passenger Equipment Roster Content-Length: 271 Will you be able to classify by date of construction through date of last known use. Inasmuch as I am modeling the PRR in 1915 my primary interest is from that year backward, although I have general interest in the subject. Harold Modeling the PRR Columbia Branch !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 23 Jul 97 17:53:34 UT Subject: Re: Passenger Update for Keystone Crossings Content-Length: 710 Never heard of these folks. Do you have a Web address, e-mail address, or snail mail address? A phone number? ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ---------- From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org To: Members of group Subject: Re: Passenger Update for Keystone Crossings Date: 09 Jul 97 11:47:02 UT BTW Union Station Products makes car sides for the P85d, e, and f. as well as the PS fluted 10/6 for service on the ACL, and SAL and the 10/6 and 14/4 for the Southern trains regards Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bearpair@erols.com Date: 23 Jul 97 18:17:20 UT Subject: RE: Camden NJ track diagrams Content-Length: 922 Richard_Toplan@pcmailgw.ml.com wrote: > > Would anyone be able to advise me where I might obtain track diagrams > of the trackage between Broadway Station and Cooper Tower in Camden, > New Jersey during the time the PRSL freight line connected with it? > > Thanks for your help. Richard - I don't know about official diagrams, but if the time frame is prior to 1950, I sgguest looking at the largest public library in your area - or your state archives - for SANBORN FIRE INSURANCE COMPANY maps. These maps are extremely detailed - showing every track, as well as every building, in a city. Since Camden is a major city, I'm sure the Sanborn Company did a series of maps of it. For an example of what Sanborn maps look like, check out my Camden Yards (B&O in Baltimore) page at HTTP://www.geocities.com/~navpooh/camden_yards.html Good luck! Mike Calo Annapolis MD !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 23 Jul 97 20:16:50 UT Subject: Passenger Roster Prototype Content-Length: 494 Okay folks...I've worked up a potential roster format for my passenger equipment roster. Please take a look and provide feedback. The main index is at http://prr.dsop.com/passops/passclass_xref.html . My sample page is for class PS442. Take a look via its link from above. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: dfresh20@erols.com Date: 23 Jul 97 22:15:33 UT Subject: Re: Passenger Roster Prototype Content-Length: 389 jerry@dsop.com wrote: > > Okay folks...I've worked up a potential roster format for my passenger > equipment roster. Please take a look and provide feedback. > > Jerry, I think you are going to have to identify the manufacturer of the model. Too many cars on the market; to be helpful it really has to point people to the right one. Dave Freshwater North Potomac, MD !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 24 Jul 97 02:47:59 UT Subject: Re: cabin question Content-Length: 2549 Jim, Installtion of the train phone system on cabin cars did not affect the cabin's class. Any of these could and did use the TrainPhone. Geography played a larger role in installation of the train phone. Interference from the strong electromagentic fields surrounding catenary greatly reduced the trainpone's effectiveness or rendered it useless. The N5 was as designed and built 1914-1917, the first all-steel cabin car. The N5A was not an official PRR class but a railfan/modeler label for an updating of the N5 design in the late 1930s including the collison posts and beefed up sills of later designs, installation of A-B brakes and cushioned draft gear. The updated cabins were still labeled N5. The N5B was a new design based on the oringinal N5A design, incorporated all the safety improvements and used a Dureya underframe. Two key sighting points. The N5B had a vertical riveted strip of metal similar to the N5 belt rail running vertically on the middle of each side. A tool box was built intobody just above the sill by the A end. Its door was flush with the car side. There were 200 N5B units built in 1941 as classes preceding the N6A were phased out. The N5C is the porthole version. There is no N5D class mentioned in a comprehensive story on modern Pennsy cabins in the December 1973 issue of the Keystone or in either volume of Morning Sun's PRR Color guide to Freight & Passenger Equipment Vol. 1 or Volume. Both have a picture of the sole N5E and Vol. 1 has a picture of the N5F, of which there were only eight. The N5E was a wrecked N5 which recieved paired rectangular windows ala the N8 and a streamlined cupola similar to the N8's. The N5F was an eight-car class of improved N5 cabin that lacked the improved collision protection found on the "N5A." On its right side it has a larged tool box suspended from the sill like that found on the N8. It's good to hear from someone local. If you want a copy of The Keystone article I could leave one with Nick and Sue at Home Hobbies. Since they're Urbanans, I assume they know of the NX23 despite Nick's distain for all things Pennsy. Could you give me directions so I can get a shot of the NX23. I'd be coming up U.S. 68 from Yellow Springs. And didn't you get a shot of the of the original Little Miami RR turntable pit when they were ecavating the foundations of Kuss Auditorium (in downtown Springfield, Ohio, for you Lines Easterners). Tom Vondruska, Yellow Springs, on the old Little Miami RR, the Panhandle's Springfield branch. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: eminton@hula.net Date: 24 Jul 97 03:01:59 UT Subject: Re: LOOKING FOR TRENTON NJ PRR YARD PICTURES FROM 1963 Content-Length: 4 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: eminton@hula.net Date: 24 Jul 97 03:07:48 UT Subject: Re: LOOKING FOR TRENTON NJ PRR YARD PICTURES FROM 1963 Content-Length: 511 I would be very pleased to see the pictures of GG1's you have ... GREATEST motive power ever built ... to bad we haven't made new ones to replace them with state of the art material. Aloha, Eric wa4bpw@Shelby.Net wrote: > HAVE BEEN TRYING TO FIND PICTURES OF THE PRR YARD IN AND AROUND > TRENTON NJ > IN THE 1963 ON TIME SPAN ALSO THE PRR GG1 HAS FASCINATED ME SINCE I > FIRST > LAYED EYES ON MY FIRST ONE I NOW HAVE AN ALMOST NOTHING BUT GG1 FILM > THAT I > WILL BE GLAD TO SHARE WITH !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rond@efn.org Date: 24 Jul 97 04:33:29 UT Subject: Re: Last call for objections re: CD-ROM Project Content-Length: 179 Hi Jerry, Will the CD be available again in the future? I can't afford to do it now. No, it's not the $30 of the CD. I have to buy a CD drive to use it. Thanks, Ron. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hosam@gc.net Date: 24 Jul 97 06:07:59 UT Subject: BLW DR4-4-1500(SHARKS) Content-Length: 8894 Greetings, Here is a listing of the Baldwin shark nose models and their paint schemes. BALDWIN DR4-4-1500 (SHARK NOSE) 1500HP PRR CLASS BF15 YEAR PRR # PAINT SCHEMES AS DELIVERED REMARKS 1949 9568 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone no stripes on nose 1949 9568B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone no stripes on nose 1949 9569 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone no stripes on nose 1949 9569B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone no stripes on nose 1949 9570 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone no stripes on nose 1949 9570B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone no stripes on nose 1949 9571 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone no stripes on nose 1949 9571B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone no stripes on nose 1949 9572 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9572B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9573 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9573B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9574 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9574B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9575 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9575B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9576 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9576B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9577 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9577B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9578 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9578B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9579 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9579B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9580 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9580B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9581 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9581B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9582 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9582B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9583 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9583B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone reclass ABF18,ren 9632b,1959 1949 9584 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9584B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9585 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9585B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9586 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9586B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9587 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9587B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9588 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9588B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9589 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9589B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9590 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9590B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9591 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9591B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9592 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9592B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9593 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1949 9593B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone BALDWIN DR4-4-1500 (SHARK NOSE) 1500HP PRR CLASS BF15a 1950 9700 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone cab moved 1' forward 1950 9700B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone cab moved 1' forward 1950 9701 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone cab moved 1' forward 1950 9701B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone cab moved 1' forward 1950 9702 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone cab moved 1' forward 1950 9702B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone cab moved 1' forward 1950 9703 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone cab moved 1' forward 1950 9703B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone cab moved 1' forward 1950 9704 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone cab moved 1' forward 1950 9704B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone cab moved 1' forward 1950 9705 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone cab moved 1' forward 1950 9705B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone cab moved 1' forward 1950 9706 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone cab moved 1' forward 1950 9706B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone cab moved 1' forward 1950 9707 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone cab moved 1' forward 1950 9707B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone cab moved 1' forward BALDWIN DR4-4-1600 (SHARK NOSE) 1600HP PRR CLASS RF16 1951-52 2000 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2001 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone reclass ABF18,ren 9632a 1959 1951-52 2002 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2002B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2003 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2004 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2004B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2005 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2006 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2006B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2007 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2008 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2008B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2009 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2010 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2010B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2011 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2012 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2012B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2013 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2014 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2014B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2015 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2016 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2016B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2017 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2018 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2018B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2019 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2020 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2020B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2021 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2022 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2022B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2023 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2024 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2024B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2025 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2026 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2026B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951-52 2027 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9708 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9708B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9709 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9710 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9710B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9711 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9712 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9712B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9713 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9714 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9714B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9715 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9716 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9717 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9718 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9719 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9720 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9721 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9722 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9723 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9724 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9725 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9726 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone reclass ABF18,ren 9632a,1959 1951 9727 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9728 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9728B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9729 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9730 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9730B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9731 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9732 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9732B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9733 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9734 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9734B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9735 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9736 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9736B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9737 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9738 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9738B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9739 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9740 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9740B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9741 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9742 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9742B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9743 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9744 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9744B Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone 1951 9745 Green, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone REBL'T NO. PAINT SCHEMES AS REBUILT REMARKS PRR CLASS ABF18 1959 9632 Green, single stripe was BF16, 9726 rebuilt 52, 1800hp 1959 9632B Green, single stripe was BF15, 9583B rebuilt 59,1800 hp 1959 9633 Green, single stripe was BF18, 2001 rebuilt 59,1800 hp Your comments and/corrections are welcome. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hosam@gc.net Date: 24 Jul 97 06:08:42 UT Subject: Baldwin DR6-4-2000 (shark nose) Content-Length: 2115 Greetings, Here is a listing of the Baldwin shark nose models and their paint schemes. BALDWIN DR6-4-2000 (SHARK NOSE) 2000HP PRR CLASS BP20 YEAR NO. PAINT SCHEMES AS DELIVERED REMARKS 1948 5770 Tuscan, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone no stripes on nose 1948 5770B Tuscan, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone no stripes on nose 1948 5771 Tuscan, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone no stripes on nose 1948 5772 Tuscan, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone no stripes on nose 1948 5772B Tuscan, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone no stripes on nose 1948 5773 Tuscan, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone no stripes on nose 1948 5774 Tuscan, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone no stripes on nose 1948 5774B Tuscan, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone no stripes on nose 1948 5775 Tuscan, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone no stripes on nose 1948 5776 Tuscan, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone no stripes on nose 1948 5776B Tuscan, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone no stripes on nose 1948 5777 Tuscan, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone no stripes on nose 1948 5778 Tuscan, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone no stripes on nose 1948 5778B Tuscan, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone no stripes on nose 1948 5779 Tuscan, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone no stripes on nose 1948 5780 Tuscan, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone no stripes on nose 1948 5780B Tuscan, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone to BF16z,1952 1948 5781 Tuscan, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone no stripes on nose 1948 5782 Tuscan, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone no stripes on nose 1948 5782B Tuscan, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone to BF16z, 1952 1948 5783 Tuscan, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone no stripes on nose 1948 5784 Tuscan, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone to BF16z, 1952 1948 5784B Tuscan, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone to BF16z, 1952 BALDWIN DR6-4-2000 (SHARK NOSE) 2000HP PRR CLASS BF20 1948 5785 Tuscan, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone no stripes on nose, to BF16z, 1952 1948 5786 Tuscan, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone no stripes on nose, to BF16z, 1952 1948 5786B Tuscan, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone no stripes on nose, to BF16z, 1952 1948 5787 Tuscan, 5 stripe, circle w/keystone no stripes on nose, to BF16z, 1952 HOSAM !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 24 Jul 97 06:53:58 UT Subject: Re: Passenger Roster Prototype Content-Length: 793 The class sub-page does this!!! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ---------- From: dfresh20@erols.com To: Members of group Subject: Re: Passenger Roster Prototype Date: 23 Jul 97 22:15:33 UT jerry@dsop.com wrote: > > Okay folks...I've worked up a potential roster format for my passenger > equipment roster. Please take a look and provide feedback. > > Jerry, I think you are going to have to identify the manufacturer of the model. Too many cars on the market; to be helpful it really has to point people to the right one. Dave Freshwater North Potomac, MD !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 24 Jul 97 06:58:00 UT Subject: Re: CD-ROM Project Content-Length: 854 This will be the "premiere" release. I can see doing two updates a year, inclusive of prior material as long as possible. Therefore, you won't miss anything by waiting till the next version. As stated, the second release will probably be Dec. 1, 1997, to allow for holiday gift giving. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ---------- From: rond@efn.org To: Members of group Subject: Re: Last call for objections re: CD-ROM Project Date: 24 Jul 97 04:33:29 UT Hi Jerry, Will the CD be available again in the future? I can't afford to do it now. No, it's not the $30 of the CD. I have to buy a CD drive to use it. Thanks, Ron. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 24 Jul 97 07:01:47 UT Subject: Re: Passenger Equipment Roster Content-Length: 523 From: "David 'Fresh' Freshwater" > Are you going to include all scales (eventually) in the Models available > column (cell)? No, I am not. However, AFTER I have created all the class pages, I will happily add other scales if someone wants to work with me on a particular scale. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 24 Jul 97 08:51:20 UT Subject: Re: Camden NJ track diagrams Content-Length: 972 > I don't know about official diagrams, but if the time frame is prior to > 1950, I sgguest looking at the largest public library in your area - or > your state archives - for SANBORN FIRE INSURANCE COMPANY maps. These > maps are extremely detailed - showing every track, as well as every > building, in a city. Since Camden is a major city, I'm sure the Sanborn > Company did a series of maps of it. As it happens (and ya know, I don't remember) either Hunt Library here at CMU or Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh (I think Hunt) has Sanborn maps for PA, 2 adjacent states, and one which didn't make sense to me. Annoying things: a) they don't always show all track. I can show you one on Johnstown I have from doing streetcar research. They don't show *any* streetcar track, not even when it diverged onto right of way, and some railroad track I *knew* was there in that time frame was also not there. Also, they only covered built-up areas. -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu Date: 24 Jul 97 09:00:01 UT Subject: Electric Locomotives Content-Length: 1344 Hi All! I worked up a page on PRR P5 electrics last night, which I have posted to my page. Please have a look and let me know what you think! My eventual goal is to have a main electrics page, with a subpage for each type. http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/P5.html I also worked up a page with some Horsepower ratings of various electric locomotives, which I will add to over time. Again, comments are welcome. http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/ElectricHP.html Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** "I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!" "Evolution is a fact, get used to it" _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 24 Jul 97 09:11:19 UT Subject: RE: Passenger Roster Prototype Content-Length: 1240 Jerry, I agree with the earlier comment that more data needs to be given on the maker of any models. The space for kitbash data was also useful and should be restored. You should show subclasses as well (PS442a). Perhaps your sample, not being a sub-class, wass just a poor choice for a sample. For example, the PS442a was a prewar car and had a different window configuration than the PS442. A plastic HO model of it exists while a model of the PS442 does not! Data on the builder and the built date(s) would also be useful where available. Perhaps the lead page should contain just the thumbnail data you show and be backed up by hot links to further info on models and prototype. regards, Andy Miller >Okay folks...I've worked up a potential roster format for my passenger >equipment roster. Please take a look and provide feedback. > >The main index is at http://prr.dsop.com/passops/passclass_xref.html . > >My sample page is for class PS442. Take a look via its link from above. >----------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton >"Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ >Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! >----------------------------------------------- > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 24 Jul 97 09:18:50 UT Subject: Re: cabin question Content-Length: 442 . . . >And didn't you get a shot of the of the original Little Miami RR turntable >pit when they were ecavating the foundations of Kuss Auditorium (in downtown >Springfield, Ohio, for you Lines Easterners). > >Tom Vondruska, Yellow Springs, on the old Little Miami RR, the Panhandle's >Springfield branch. > > Tom, For us Lines Easterners, I know Springfield is in Massachusetts - Where's Ohio? ;-) regards Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 24 Jul 97 09:38:20 UT Subject: Re: Passenger Update for Keystone Crossings Content-Length: 704 Jerry, My apologies. I hadn't noticed the class subpage. You seem to have it all! Where did you get your data? Perhaps what you need is a reference sitation. You might consider indicating which of the various subclasses each HO model reperesents. The ECW car is a Pullman plan 4069, (perfect for your Liberty Ltd) I don't know about the BCS model. The only thing I can think of which would enhance this for modelers (besides scanned fotos of the models and prototype) are descriptions of the trucks used and whether models are available. I mention this because of the two models you identify, one requires trucks and the other could stand replacement. regards Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu Date: 24 Jul 97 09:47:04 UT Subject: PRR - class names Content-Length: 2387 Hi All! I think I noticed some confusion in the last few days about the naming of PRR locomotive classes based on wheel arrangements. I seem to have missed a message or two, so if this is repetitive, please forgive. Essentially, locomotives were classified on rigid wheelbase engines, and in ascending order. However, the orderly progression of types stopped as PRR missed some wheel arrangements, and added them later. Articulated locomotives were classified on the basis of each "engine", thus the HH-1 (former N&W Y-3) was really two 2-8-0 engines hooked together in one locomotive. This also explains the electric GG-1 and DD-1 which consisted of 4-6-0 and 4-4-0 frames respectively. But WAIT you say, explain the T-1, S-1 and Q-1/Q-2 classes?!!! ALL of these locomotives had RIGID frames (NO ARTICULATION!!!!!!!) hence their classification with single letters. Here's a cocktail party question: Did the PRR have any Northern type (4-8-4)? The answer is yes, the R-1, a one-of-a-kind electric which competed with the GG-1 for the role of primary passenger hauler. Interestingly, the PRR never had a steam loco of the Northern type. Here is list of classes, from my memory A 0-4-0 B 0-6-0 C 0-8-0 D 4-4-0 DD 4-4-4-4 E 4-4-2 F 2-6-0 FF 2-6-6-2 G 4-6-0 GG 4-6-6-4 H 2-8-0 HC 2-8-8-0 HH 2-8-8-2 I 2-10-0 J 2-10-2 K 4-6-2 L 2-8-2 M 4-8-2 N 4-10-2 O 4-4-4 P 4-6-4 Q 4-4-6-4, 4-6-4-4 R 4-8-4 S 6-4-4-6, 6-8-6 (turbine) T 4-4-4-4 Please feel free to correct me if I've made any mistakes! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** "I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!" "Evolution is a fact, get used to it" _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 24 Jul 97 10:14:42 UT Subject: Re: cabin question Content-Length: 217 > For us Lines Easterners, I know Springfield is in Massachusetts - Where's Ohio? ;-) For us who watch the Simpsons, I know all of the lower 48 have a Springfield somewhere; Where's Massachusetts? ;-) -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 24 Jul 97 10:38:39 UT Subject: Re: Passenger Update for Keystone Crossings Content-Length: 1892 From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org > My apologies. I hadn't noticed the class subpage. You seem to have it all! > Where did you get your data? Perhaps what you need is a reference sitation. Fortunately I saw your second e-mail before I responded to the first. As for the sources, they are listed at the bottom of the main index page, with a note that they apply as sources to all of the subpages. Since there are several sources, I didn't want to dup the data to each class page. Currently, the "old table" is in the way and probably kept you from scrolling down far enough. Note that, where available, I will add "detailed" floor plans (in addition to the "basic" floor plan shown) as well as profiles. > You might consider indicating which of the various subclasses each HO model > reperesents. The ECW car is a Pullman plan 4069, (perfect for your Liberty > Ltd) I don't know about the BCS model. Yes, I will, where known. I discovered that the ECW was a Pullman 4069 after I had quit out of my editor, etc., and was too lazy to get back into it. > The only thing I can think of which would enhance this for modelers (besides > scanned fotos of the models and prototype) are descriptions of the trucks used > and whether models are available. I mention this because of the two models > you identify, one requires trucks and the other could stand replacement. My one source, "Pullman-Standard Vol. 4" contains truck information for Pullman-builts. I could certainly add this. Notes on kitbashing / enhancing models will need to come from readers, like you. I will add prototype photos. As I purchase models and build them, I will add their photos. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 24 Jul 97 11:45:24 UT Subject: Re: cabin question Content-Length: 761 In a message dated 97-07-24 00:50:55 EDT, you write: << Could anyone explain the differences between the N5A N5D N5E and N5F and the other more common N5 and N5B? Also Is anyone interested that there is a NX23 wartime cabin in Urbana Ohio in fair shape? It seems sound but the wood is weathered. No trucks but upon blocks. There are trees growing up around it but I have a photo from last fall or winter. J >> This is off the top of my head. N5 lack of crash beams is the distinctive feature. N5A and N5F the N5F has a battery/tool box mounted beneath the frame at the mid point on one side. N5A lacks this box. Need to check at home for the others. Could you give the specific location of the NX23? Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 24 Jul 97 11:53:01 UT Subject: Re: BLW DR4-4-1500(SHARKS) Content-Length: 180 Two notes: Those units originally painted without nose stripes had the stripes added later. The B15a and RF16 body is the same. Exteranlly they are identical. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 24 Jul 97 11:54:47 UT Subject: Re: Baldwin DR6-4-2000 (shark nose) Content-Length: 208 All passenger sharks had the nose stripes added when repainted after late 1949. The era you are modeling should reflect this. Some lasted with out nose stripes into the mid '50s but not many Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hebnerj@clark.cc.oh.us Date: 24 Jul 97 18:49:08 UT Subject: directions to the NX23 Content-Length: 100488 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------85EB58B239D6ADC3BC8ADDFF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Several people have asked for directions to the NX 23. In Ohio take rt 68 to Urbana. At the traffic circle take Rt 36 west. Just before the NYC bridge (on the east sideof the bridge) make a right (north) It sits in some young trees at the end of this short street. I first found it in 1973, and think it was in a 1963 or 64 Model Railroader. It was moved to its current location about 10 years ago from another site in Urbana. It is up on blocks, no trucks. 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From: Bnsftulsa@aol.com Date: 24 Jul 97 18:59:58 UT Subject: Re: Passenger Update for Keystone Crossings Content-Length: 308 I have some old books that show PRR slprs that were converted for M-O-W service. Would this group be interested in that? It would be a lot of typeing but it does have much info regarding the hw cars? There still are some ex PRR slprs here and there. Dick Brundage Tulsa OK bnsftulsa@aol.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: 24 Jul 97 19:31:02 UT Subject: Re: Passenger Update for Keystone Crossings Content-Length: 908 Jerry, I recently obtained a copy of "Pennsylvania Railroad Heavyweight Passenger Equipment Plan and Photo Book", Published by: N.J. International, Inc., 1984. It contains some excellent photos and info. It also contains a section on PRR Passenger Truck Classification with photos and detailed descriptions. Each truck is listed with its appropriate application, ie. 2D-P2 was used on: B-60, and R50B; 2D-P5 was used on: P70, P70D, P70F, B60, B60A, B60B, R50B, PLC70, P70K, P70H, P70R, P70FB, PC70R, POC70, P70B, P70E, P70GS, P70FA, P70DR, and PLC70A. (Andy will have to tell us what all of these cars really are!). There are 27 different trucks listed. If any of this info would be helpful to you, let me know and I will gladly send it along. BTW, the book also contains photos and plans of a OEW330 Pullman Gas Electric #4663; a GEG415 Brill Gas Electric and other wierd stuff. George !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 24 Jul 97 19:59:26 UT Subject: Please do not send attachments to the list. Content-Length: 797 Please do not send attachments to the list. Not only does it choke the listserv, but it is a dis-service to the subscribers of the list, choking their e-mail accounts as well...perhaps beyond the amount of space allowed by their hosts. It is also very "hard" on users who download their mail via slow modems. If you have an image to share, contact myself or one of the other notable PRR Webmasters and ask to have it posted on a Web page. That way interested parties may view it at their leisure. Consider this a learning experience and please do not do it again. 8-) ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: 24 Jul 97 22:33:53 UT Subject: Re: PRR - class names Content-Length: 305 OK Bruce You say the PRR never had a Steam "Northern" - In spite of Thousands Bachman sold----- BUT if PENNSY regarded the S-1 and S-2 as both being 6-8-6 AND the Q-1 and Q-2 as both 4-10-4 THEN the T-1 WAS a 4-8-4 and should have been a Pennsy Northern and should have been Classed R-2 ! Dick Ross !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rncamp@harford.campus.mci.net Date: 24 Jul 97 23:39:01 UT Subject: Re: Passenger Update for Keystone Crossings Content-Length: 2717 JERRY MAYBE YOU SHOULD LOOK AT SOME OF THE CAR SIDE KITS BEFORE YOU GET TO SERIOUS ABOUT YOUR LIBERTY . THE 4069 THAT MR. MILLER SPOKE OF HAS WINDOW OPENINGS THAT DON'T QUITE MEASURE OUT. I'AM NOT SURE HOW TO ACCESS YOUR CAR NEEDS ON HTE NET BEING NEW AT THIS SO IF YOU COULD SEND ME DIRECTIONS TO OR A LIST OF THE LIBERTY THAT YOU WANT TO BUILD MAYBE I COULD GUIDE YOU TO SOME MODELS THAT ARE CORRECT FOR YOUR TRAIN , YES I EVEN HAVE A ROUND END OBS THAT RAN ON THE LIBERTY. TRAVEL BY RAIL NEIL CAMPBELL ncampbell@iname ---------- > From: britton@pit-magnus.com > To: Members of group > Subject: Re: Passenger Update for Keystone Crossings > Date: Thursday, July 24, 1997 6:38 AM > > > From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org > > > My apologies. I hadn't noticed the class subpage. You seem to have it > all! > > Where did you get your data? Perhaps what you need is a reference > sitation. > > Fortunately I saw your second e-mail before I responded to the first. > > As for the sources, they are listed at the bottom of the main index page, > with a note that they apply as sources to all of the subpages. Since there > are several sources, I didn't want to dup the data to each class page. > Currently, the "old table" is in the way and probably kept you from > scrolling down far enough. > > Note that, where available, I will add "detailed" floor plans (in addition > to the "basic" floor plan shown) as well as profiles. > > > You might consider indicating which of the various subclasses each HO > model > > reperesents. The ECW car is a Pullman plan 4069, (perfect for your > Liberty > > Ltd) I don't know about the BCS model. > > Yes, I will, where known. I discovered that the ECW was a Pullman 4069 after > I had quit out of my editor, etc., and was too lazy to get back into it. > > > The only thing I can think of which would enhance this for modelers > (besides > > scanned fotos of the models and prototype) are descriptions of the trucks > used > > and whether models are available. I mention this because of the two > models > > you identify, one requires trucks and the other could stand replacement. > > My one source, "Pullman-Standard Vol. 4" contains truck information for > Pullman-builts. I could certainly add this. Notes on kitbashing / enhancing > models will need to come from readers, like you. I will add prototype > photos. As I purchase models and build them, I will add their photos. > --------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > Progressive Information Technologies > britton@pit-magnus.com > http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: 25 Jul 97 00:34:38 UT Subject: Re: PRR - class names Content-Length: 785 In a message dated 97-07-24 12:21:28 EDT, you write: << Here is list of classes, from my memory A 0-4-0 B 0-6-0 C 0-8-0 D 4-4-0 DD 4-4-4-4 E 4-4-2 F 2-6-0 FF 2-6-6-2 G 4-6-0 GG 4-6-6-4 H 2-8-0 HC 2-8-8-0 HH 2-8-8-2 I 2-10-0 J 2-10-2 K 4-6-2 L 2-8-2 M 4-8-2 N 4-10-2 O 4-4-4 P 4-6-4 Q 4-4-6-4, 4-6-4-4 R 4-8-4 S 6-4-4-6, 6-8-6 (turbine) T 4-4-4-4 Please feel free to correct me if I've made any mistakes! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ >> J 2-10-4, not 2-10-2 N 2-10-2, not 4-10-2 Best wishes !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 25 Jul 97 02:28:46 UT Subject: Re: Auction in Indianapolis Content-Length: 450 In a message dated 97-07-17 14:41:57 EDT, you write: << A few days ago I was asked by Dave Tozer (dtozer@iquest.net) if there was anything that I could do to help spread the word about a number of Railroadiana and model items that were going to be auctioned off. >> I'm a bit tardy in responding. But when and where is this auction? I'm in Yellow Springs, Ohio, just off I-70 about 100 miles east of Naptown. Tom V. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hosam@gc.net Date: 25 Jul 97 06:05:13 UT Subject: x23 Caboose Content-Length: 286 Greetings, There is an excellent article on building an X23 caboose in the Model Railroader April 1971 issue. Authored by Tom Busack and the MR staff. Mr. Busack is an excellent modeler and has written many articles over the years on kitbashing Diesel locomotives. HOSAM !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hosam@gc.net Date: 25 Jul 97 06:45:25 UT Subject: X23 caboose Content-Length: 286 Greetings, There is an excellent article on building an X23 caboose in the Model Railroader April 1971 issue. Authored by Tom Busack and the MR staff. Mr. Busack is an excellent modeler and has written many articles over the years on kitbashing Diesel locomotives. HOSAM !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu Date: 25 Jul 97 09:00:58 UT Subject: Re: PRR - class names Content-Length: 2407 Dick Ross said: >OK Bruce You say the PRR never had a Steam "Northern" - In spite of Thousands >Bachman sold----- BUT if PENNSY regarded the S-1 and S-2 as both being 6-8-6 >AND the Q-1 and Q-2 as both 4-10-4 THEN the T-1 WAS a 4-8-4 and should have >been a Pennsy Northern and should have been Classed R-2 ! and BBReynolds@aol.com said: >J 2-10-4, not 2-10-2 >N 2-10-2, not 4-10-2 You can't ever slip anything by this group can you?! I recognized the J/N mixup as soon as I got home last night (I said I was working from memory - so what do you expect from an absent minded professor type?) - Thanks for pointing it out. As to the T-1 vs. R-2 question - I agree! It has always seemed to me that the T-1 should have been an R2. Some people might say that the "standard railroad of the world" got a little inconsistent there...The puzzling fact to me is that the S-2, Q-1, and Q-2 were all contemporaries of the T-1 and followed the system so why mess with the system with the T-1? As for Botchman...'nuff said. Okay, I'll say more - after all this is the company that brought you a beautiful scale model of a doodlebug gas-electric, and called it an EMC when in fact, it represents absolutely no known prototype. The whole thing is fictitious!!!!! When oh when will they get a clue? Anyone think we can ever convince Bowser to produce the PRR J-1 class? Wouldn't that be something? Of course, just getting Bowser to put the right tender with the right locomotive would be nice too! ;^) Enough RANTING - I'm off to Madison. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** "I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!" "Evolution is a fact, get used to it" _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 25 Jul 97 09:22:31 UT Subject: Future Bowser (Was: PRR - class names) Content-Length: 1741 From: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu > As for Botchman...'nuff said. Okay, I'll say more - after all this is the > company that brought you a beautiful scale model of a doodlebug > gas-electric, and called it an EMC when in fact, it represents absolutely > no known prototype. The whole thing is fictitious!!!!! When oh when will > they get a clue? At least they give us nice passenger cars in the Spectrum line. > Anyone think we can ever convince Bowser to produce the PRR J-1 class? > Wouldn't that be something? Of course, just getting Bowser to put the > right tender with the right locomotive would be nice too! ;^) Enough > RANTING - I'm off to Madison. As a group ("PRR-Talk") we may now have a bit of voice / leverage with a company like Bowser. No, there not going to listed to a hundred plus users as individuals, but as an "organized" group...perhaps we can make a difference. Those of us with Internet access -- I think -- tend to be of the "higher echelon" (sp.) technically. Our interest in electronics / Internet goes hand-in-hand with our demand for technically-correct models. Bowser does not have a Web site (I have tried to get them to put one on my server, with no response). What we need is to find one contact at Bowser with Internet access. Get them to join the list and watch postings about our collective needs. Besides the list, there's also the handful of PRR Web sites that attract attention. I know Mark's gets a lot of hits; mine is averaging 3000+ per month ("Keystone Crossings" only). --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 25 Jul 97 09:48:30 UT Subject: Re: Passenger Update for Keystone Crossings Content-Length: 1096 Neil, Welcome aboard. Tell me about the ECW 442. I must admit that I spied the upper section windows and relegated the model to "pre-war" status. What are the innacuracies for the PRR prototype? What other cars do you know about? Tell us more of the prewar "view" observations. You obviously have my attention. (And probably Jerry's) BTW (that's "by the way") you are letting your novice network status show by "SHOUTING". Don't type your messages in all uppercase. They are harder to read. regards Andy Miller >JERRY >MAYBE YOU SHOULD LOOK AT SOME OF THE CAR SIDE KITS BEFORE YOU GET TO >SERIOUS ABOUT YOUR LIBERTY . >THE 4069 THAT MR. MILLER SPOKE OF HAS WINDOW OPENINGS THAT DON'T QUITE >MEASURE OUT. >I'AM NOT SURE HOW TO ACCESS YOUR CAR NEEDS ON HTE NET BEING NEW AT THIS SO >IF YOU COULD SEND ME DIRECTIONS TO OR A LIST OF THE LIBERTY THAT YOU WANT >TO BUILD MAYBE I COULD GUIDE YOU TO SOME MODELS THAT ARE CORRECT FOR YOUR >TRAIN , YES I EVEN HAVE A ROUND END OBS THAT RAN ON THE LIBERTY. > >TRAVEL BY RAIL >NEIL CAMPBELL >ncampbell@iname !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 25 Jul 97 10:22:18 UT Subject: Re: Passenger Car Models Content-Length: 2785 NEIL CAMPBELL (ncampbell@iname) wrote: >MAYBE YOU SHOULD LOOK AT SOME OF THE CAR SIDE KITS BEFORE YOU GET TO >SERIOUS ABOUT YOUR LIBERTY . >THE 4069 THAT MR. MILLER SPOKE OF HAS WINDOW OPENINGS THAT DON'T QUITE >MEASURE OUT. >I'AM NOT SURE HOW TO ACCESS YOUR CAR NEEDS ON HTE NET BEING NEW AT THIS SO >IF YOU COULD SEND ME DIRECTIONS TO OR A LIST OF THE LIBERTY THAT YOU WANT >TO BUILD MAYBE I COULD GUIDE YOU TO SOME MODELS THAT ARE CORRECT FOR YOUR >TRAIN , YES I EVEN HAVE A ROUND END OBS THAT RAN ON THE LIBERTY. Oh, how I love my own work...I used the archive search feature I added to "PRR-Talk" to retrieve part of a post I made some time ago. I knew the data was in there! 8-) Neil, the two consists I plan to model are below. The 1943's first section will be first, due to available models. Next will be the second section of the 1943, followed by a 1945 "Dominion Express" (Buffalo-Washington). Then I will do the 1953 "Liberty", which has practically no models available. However, I will go ahead and buy its motive power as soon as the P2K E7s are out. My consist report for 1943 lists the following (classes added in brackets, model plans in parens): 1943 Liberty Limited: No mention of power. Undoubtedly K4 (Bowser), perhaps doubled. Ran in two sections. Section 1: (3) 12 sections, 1 drawing room [_____, ? Pullman Plan 3410G] (IHC) (1) Diner [D82BR] (?) (1) 4 compartment, 2 drawing room, 4 double bedroom [PS442] (ECW or BCS) (1) 12 duplex, 5 double bedroom [PS125A] (IHC) (1) 10 roomette, 5 double bedroom [PS105A] (Brass Car Sides) (1) 2 master bedroom, 1 double bedroom, buffet-lounge, observation [POS21A] (?) Section 2: (1) B60 baggage [B60, as stated] (Bethlehem Car Works) (3) P70KR coach [P70KR, as stated] (Spectrum) (1) diner [D82BR] (?) (1) 3 double bedroom, 1 drawing room, bar-lounge [PS13L] (?) (1) 10 roomette, 5 double bedroom [PS105A] (Brass Car Sides) (1) 12 sections, 1 drawing room [_____, ? Pullman Plan 3410G] (IHC) (1) 14 sections [________] (?) (1) 8 sections,1 drawing room, 2 compartments [_____, ? Pullman Plan 3979A] (?) Neil, I am in the process of constructing an extensive PRR passenger roster with modeling information. The address is http://prr.dsop.com/passops/passclass_xref.html . Please keep an eye on it. I have info on models from IHC, Spectrum, Brass Car Sides, Eastern Car Works, and Bethlehem Car Works. People on the list have mention Union Station Products. I am interested in receiving addresses or Web URL's for this and any other companies that sell PRR models. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 25 Jul 97 11:22:36 UT Subject: Re: Liberty Ltd was Passenger Car Models Content-Length: 575 Jerry, Your listed consists was in part: . . . >(3) P70KR coach [P70KR, as stated] (Spectrum) . . . The Spectrum P70 is an unrebuilt, non A/C, local service P-70. The P70k was a rebuild for long distance overnight service and was very distinctive. It was a single vestibule car with large picture windows, a streamlined roof, and smooth sides (the rivets had been ground off). I've scratch built a few for service on my trains. Having the smooth sides, the job is not impossible. But the Spectrum car is not the right model. regards Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: robs@protocol.zycad.com Date: 25 Jul 97 11:41:17 UT Subject: Re: Future Bowser (Was: PRR - class names) Content-Length: 862 Jerry, Regarding Bowser, how did you try to contact them? They have a phone # listed in their catalog and tend to be very responsive on the phone. A friend called up when the roadrailers first were rumored to see if it was true and ended up talking to Lee English (the big cheese) for a while about them and other future projects. If you're in the Montoursville area they also have a hobby shop (25% off bowser and most other manufacturers) by their factory where you can try to sell them on a J1. (They have factory tours also... pretty neat-ever see a 5 gallon pail of Scalecoat paint?) I'd guess that the market is too limited to justify doing a J though... They do own the dies etc, for the Arbour J1, but I got a Arbour A3 kit (0-4-0) and even though it's a very simple engine it was MUCH harder to build than any Bowser kit. Rob !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 25 Jul 97 11:49:30 UT Subject: Re: Liberty Ltd was Passenger Car Models Content-Length: 1153 From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org > >(3) P70KR coach [P70KR, as stated] (Spectrum) > > The Spectrum P70 is an unrebuilt, non A/C, local service P-70. > The P70k was a rebuild for long distance overnight service and was very > distinctive. It was a single vestibule car with large picture windows, a > streamlined roof, and smooth sides (the rivets had been ground off). I've > scratch built a few for service on my trains. Having the smooth sides, the > job is not impossible. But the Spectrum car is not the right model. That's not what I wanted to hear! Hmmm. Would it be right for the "Parkton Locals", originating out of Baltimore to reach the northern suburbs? With the forthcoming release of P2K E7's, I'm not in car buying mode anyway. I'll get my roster done in its new format, list the models I am aware of (incorporating these posts accordingly) and then let you "sharks" tear away at them. I'll get the right models yet!!!! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 25 Jul 97 12:03:25 UT Subject: Web Sites (Was Re: Future Bowser) Content-Length: 1717 From: robs@protocol.zycad.com > Regarding Bowser, how did you try to contact them? They have a phone # listed in their catalog and > tend to be very responsive on the phone. A friend called up when the roadrailers first were rumored to see if > it was true and ended up talking to Lee English (the big cheese) for a while about them and other future projects. Sent them a letter addressed to the attention of the Marketing Manager. No response. Did it on my corporate letterhead, too. In fact, I did a mailing to about two dozen model railroad manufacturers for whom I could not find Web sites. I host other sites on my server, but I want to specialize in railroad sites. I offer 50MB of space for $20 per month. Additional 50MB for $15 per month. Custom domain name at no additional charge. As more sites come on board, I will reinvest the revenues in greater bandwidth. Unfortunately, it's a big jump in price from 56K to fractional T1. (I'd skip over 128K and go at least to 256K.) I strive to make my connection and site hosting revenues a "break even" venture. Any profits will come from site design (see below), not from hosting. Customers may maintain their own site (HTML coding and graphics prep) or have me do it. Services are billed at $45 per hour (cheap for the market), though on services I am open to the concept of trading for product. NOTE: I provide limited hosting service for individuals/organizations that have PRR material of personal interest to me, free of charge. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: kaiser#m#_bud@msgw.vf.lmco.com Date: 25 Jul 97 12:40:59 UT Subject: RE: cabin question Content-Length: 3993 JIm: I'm no expert but can offer some information on the N5 cabins. First, = there are two references that come to mind outside of any PRRT&HS = Keystone articles. I'm getting ready to head to the NMRA National = Convention and won't have time to research the Keystone for further = information. I'll do so when I get back if someone else doesn't come up = with additional info or corrections. The first book is Cabin Cars of the = Pennsylvania and Long Island RRs by NJ International. This has many = photos of the various classes with minor captions. The second article is = in the Mainline Modeler for December,1995, covering the detailing of the = Bowser N5 and N5b cabins. This is great article for those who are = interested in bringing the Bowser units up several notches in detail. I = have modified an N5 and N5c with info in this article and will soon start = the N5b. The first reference shows that most of the N5 cabins had crash bars but = these must have been added after construction and/or when the cars were = outshopped for whatever reason. There is a 1929 photo of the N5, however, = showing end platforms without the crash bars and with the lettering = adopted in 1926. Both the N5 and N5b had offset cupolas and rectangular = windows, however, one distinguishing difference was the roofwalk. The N5 = had the classical wooden walkways, and the N5b had a metal mesh walkway = similiar to that found on the N5c. The N5c had a centered cupola and = round cabin windows all around. When Trainphones were added to the N5, = other features of the N5b were added, such as lengthening the side curved = handrails as well as the end handrails. Not sure why they did this, but = maybe to provide more gripping area for climbing on the roof to work the = antenna. They were als repositioned sideways to not interfere with the = train Equipment box. These taller handrails were standard on the N5b. I = believe that the N5c had the shorter handrails as well as a lower riveted = belt rail on the sides. All the N5 and N5b cars equipped with phones had = a special radio equipment door on the side of the car. I also believe = that the interiors were arranged differently. The N5e had a modernized = cupola similir to the N8, but was off center. It also had four = rectangular side windows on each side although the rest of the body was = like the N5. It actually looked more like an N8 than an N5 series. Hope this goes in part in answering your questions or at least having = others add or correct this. Bud Kaiser __________________________________________________________________________= _____ From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com on Wed, Jul 23, 1997 3:37 PM Subject: cabin question To: Members of group Could anyone explain the differences between the N5A N5D N5E and N5F and the other more common N5 and N5B? Jim Hebner ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ Received: by msgw.vf.lmco.com with ADMIN;23 Jul 1997 15:36:57 -0400 Received: from dekalb.external.lmco.com (dekalb.external.lmco.com = [192.35.35.21]) by franklin.vf.lmco.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA25435 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 15:35:35 -0400 = (EDT) From: hebnerj@clark.cc.oh.us Received: from [204.186.21.83] (cs6-03.pcn.ptd.net [204.186.21.83]) by dekalb.external.lmco.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA00260 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 15:35:33 -0400 = (EDT) Message-Id: X-Mailer: RingTwice for the Macintosh X-Unsubinfo: To unsubscribe, mail "UNSUB PRR-Talk" to Date: 23 Jul 97 13:54:39 UT Reply-To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Originator: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Errors-To: postmaster@dsop.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii; x-mac-type=3D"54455854"; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk To: Members of group Subject: cabin question !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 25 Jul 97 13:06:08 UT Subject: Altoona-bound on August 9th Content-Length: 997 Sunday, August 10, I will be at Northern Central Railroad Heritage Days in New Freedom, Pa. I would have preferred to attend on Saturday, due to the single-day Memorobilia Show, but I must drive my (pregnant) wife to her home office in Williamsburg, Pa., for a day-long "customer appreciation" picnic. (yawn) Good news is, once I get here there and make a "token appearance", I can get away for a couple of hours. Altoona is just 15 minutes away. I've done the railroaders museum and The Curve before. Last year I did Cresson and Gallitzin. Should I repeat these sites, or should I venture to the north and east? Is Tyrone/Vail worth seeing, where the Bald Eagle Branch joins the main? What about Spruce Creek? I know "Jack's Narrows" is in the area, but not sure where. Is it worth seeing? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rncamp@harford.campus.mci.net Date: 25 Jul 97 16:57:33 UT Subject: RE. Passenger Update for Keystone Crossings Content-Length: 1469 Jerry and Andy , Here is some more on the Union Station Products Car sides . First; they are to be used with the Eastern Car Works core kit #1200 or #1299 Second ; The sides are run thur a computer program and any car that the operator has plans or a set of sharp side elevation photos . At this time these cars can be modeled Plan 4130 PS124 Plan 4072 PS105 Plan 4069 PS442 ( Have not built this one kit sheet shows it as a 4069H ? ) Plan 4081 PS311 (Jerry your pre-war tail car ) Twin Diner , ACF built 1946 UPS also make sides for the Flordia trains that ran on the New York to Washington Main . Plan 3091B PS142 ACF 14 roomette 2 compartment fluted Plan 4140B PS106 fluted Plan 4156 PS21 21 roomette fluted Plan 7593 ,54 seat coach These cars were used with the Alantic Coast Line Plan 4140 PS106 fluted Plan 7457a Pre- War coach These cars were used on Southern Trains. USP alo has all the other cars built by Pullman and ACF for Seaboard and Alantic Coast Line Reguarding the ECW cars if fou measure the window openings you will find them to be a little undersized . This really shows up when put in a train with IHC , AMB or USP cars. Due next are the Plan 4131 Falls Cars P85b coachs and the ACF built 442 Imperials Mark Meeks who owns USP can be reached at USPCo@aol.com Travel By Rail Neil ncampbell@iname !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: postmaster@dsop.com Date: 26 Jul 97 00:01:38 UT Subject: MESSAGE FROM POSTMASTER Content-Length: 818 Beginning this morning (7/25), the listserv at Desktop Solutions came under SPAM attack from two domains in the former Soviet Union (@xxxxx.kiev.ua). Yes, believe it or not! I was forced to disable posting capability while I troubleshot the situation. I deleted the offending mail, deleted the offending subscriber accounts (six in all), and added a filter to my firewall to prevent new packets from the offending IP address range from entering my domain(s). Everything appears to be back to normal, postablility is restored. A few posts that came in were bounced to the Postmaster account. I will reforward them to the lists. Thank you for your patience. -------------------------------------------- Postmaster Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. http://www.dsop.com postmaster@dsop.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: postmaster@dsop.com Date: 26 Jul 97 00:03:35 UT Subject: FW: Parkton Locals Content-Length: 493 ---------- From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" To: "PRR-Talk" Subject: Parkton Locals Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 18:35:40 -0400 Jerry, Hmmm. Would it be right for the "Parkton Locals", originating out of > Baltimore to reach the northern suburbs? All you need is a few Bachmann P70's and that Bowser K4s that you have and viola! a Parkton local that ran on the NC! Next stop, Ruxton. Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: postmaster@dsop.com Date: 26 Jul 97 00:05:33 UT Subject: FW: Re: Altoona-bound on August 9th Content-Length: 766 ---------- From: SUVCWORR@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: Altoona-bound on August 9th Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 19:19:42 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 97-07-25 18:54:59 EDT, you write: > >I've done the railroaders museum and The Curve before. Last year I did >Cresson and Gallitzin. Should I repeat these sites, or should I venture to >the north and east? > > Jerry, if you are interested in modern equipment and some old PRR you might want to try the Holidaysburg car shops. There are a number of points where you can photograph cars with telephoto lenses and a few locations near the road. Also you can see the former location of Wye tower and the former line to Muleshoe Curve. Most of this is on old US 22. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: postmaster@dsop.com Date: 26 Jul 97 00:08:34 UT Subject: FW: Re: Altoona-bound on August 9th Content-Length: 1180 ---------- From: SUVCWORR@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: Altoona-bound on August 9th Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 19:25:54 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 97-07-25 18:54:59 EDT, you write: >Is Tyrone/Vail worth seeing, where the Bald Eagle Branch joins the main? >What about Spruce Creek? I know "Jack's Narrows" is in the area, but not >sure where. Is it worth seeing? At Tyrone you can get right to track side next to the Amtrack "station" really a platform & shed. There is some interesting trackage through Tyrone. Besides the Bald Eagle Branch (which is now hosting CR trains) the Clearfield Branch also took off from Tyrone. There may still be an interchange with Clearfield cluster now owned by Gorman. THe Spruce Creek Portals can be seen from the bridge across Spruce Creek in the town of Spruce Creek on Rt 45 . You need to wade the stream to get to the portals. There isn't much room when trains are running. The old State Line Branch followed old 220 south to State line where the PRR had running rights over the WM into Cumberland. But I think most if not all of this track has been removed. Have fun. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: postmaster@dsop.com Date: 26 Jul 97 00:12:21 UT Subject: FW: Off subject, British Locomotive Windshield Test Content-Length: 1406 ---------- From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" To: "PRR-Talk" Subject: Off subject, British Locomotive Windshield Test Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 19:31:59 -0400 Feathers In a recent issue of "Meat & Poultry" magazine, editors quoted from "Feathers," the publication of the California Poultry Industry Federation, telling the following story: It seems the US Federal Aviation Administration has a unique device for testing the strength of windshields on airplanes. The device is a gun that launches a dead chicken at a plane's windshield at approximately the speed the plane flies. The theory is that if the windshield doesn't crack from the carcass impact, it'll survive a real collision with a bird during flight. It seems the British were very interested in this and wanted to test a windshield on a brand new, speedy locomotive they're developing. They borrowed the FAA's chicken launcher, loaded the chicken and fired. The ballistic chicken shattered the windshield, went through the engineer's chair, broke an instrument panel and embedded itself in the back wall of the engine cab. The British were stunned and asked the FAA to recheck the test to see if everything was done correctly. The FAA reviewed the test thoroughly and had one recommendation: "Use a thawed chicken." Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: postmaster@dsop.com Date: 26 Jul 97 00:17:20 UT Subject: FW: Re: PRR - class names Content-Length: 827 ---------- From: SUVCWORR@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: PRR - class names Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 21:58:48 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 97-07-25 20:20:48 EDT, you write: >As to the T-1 vs. R-2 question - I agree! It has always seemed to me that >the T-1 should have been an R2. Some people might say that the "standard >railroad of the world" got a little inconsistent there...The puzzling fact >to me is that the S-2, Q-1, and Q-2 were all contemporaries of the T-1 and >followed the system so why mess with the system with the T-1? > > Because it should have been a DD-3. It was a 4-4-4-4 not a 4-8-4. So the question is why was the T1 not classed DD-3? Of course we then have the never built 4-8-4-8-6-6 designed by Loewy. The two 8 axle sets were the drivers. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: 26 Jul 97 00:53:34 UT Subject: Re: Future Bowser (Was: PRR - class names) Content-Length: 834 Jerry, Just to let you know Bowser purchased a number of years ago the die work for Arbor models. Their line included a PRR J-1 with the 210F-84 tank. There is a test shot of the tender at English's on the counter side of the display. I asked Rich the manager at English about it and he said that the molds would take some work to be usuable. I will be going to Madison next week and am going to make it a point to ask the owner of Rail Power about the possibility of making plastic tender shells of the more common PRR tenders. I think that a bare shell and a tender floor would suffice as Bowser offers all of their detail parts seperately so a supply of needed parts already exists. I think a 90 F 82 and a 210 F82 would be a good start. Whats the opinions out there on a project like this ?? Ken McCorry !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JDPanza@aol.com Date: 26 Jul 97 06:46:18 UT Subject: Re: Altoona-bound on August 9th Content-Length: 552 Jerry: Last week I was in the Altoona area for my employer TTX Company. Having lived there 8 years and visiting the same places many times over, I decided to try something different. Using the January 1996 issues of Railpace as a guide, I set up at Summerhill where there is a great PRR position light signal bridge and at Jamestown Road overpass east of Portgage. Both are bridge shots which is better for the high sun of the summer afternoons. Rail traffic was extremely heavy in the mid to late afternoon. Hope you have a good trip. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: wa4bpw@Shelby.Net Date: 26 Jul 97 07:04:46 UT Subject: OOPS I FORGOT MY GG1 INFO IS ON VCR Content-Length: 537 --------- > To: > ... DEAR SIRS MY GG1 FILM OR PICTURES ARE ON VCR FROM OLD RIVITS TO THE END ON JERSEY TRANSIT I HAVE NOT MADE UP ANY EXTRA AS OF YET AS I KEEP THIS ONE IN A SPECIAL PLACE BUT IF YOU WOULD LIKE A COPY I WILL TRY TO GET SOME MADE UP FOR MAILING YOU WONT BE DISAPOINTED AS TO PRICE I WILL HAVE TO SEE WHAT IT COST ME TO HAVE THIS DONE . SOMEONE HAD AN ARTICLE ABOUT HOW TO CHANGE THE SPEED ON RIVEROSSIE GG1 ENGINES HO OF COURSE ANYONE OUT THERE HAVE THAT INFO> .SAM > > > > > > > > > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: 26 Jul 97 12:01:49 UT Subject: I-1s Question Content-Length: 385 My "O" scale I-1 (short tender) includes a water scoop - and so does the long one with the 3 porthole window "art deco" brakeman's shack. I thought this feature was exclusive to PASSENGER and "Dual Service" locomotives (M-1 J-1) Assumining this is correct - no reason to doubt it - anyone ever see photos of or read about an I-1 actually using this feature? Dick Ross !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: sbartlet@capecod.net Date: 26 Jul 97 12:31:51 UT Subject: Re: I-1s Question Content-Length: 692 Dick, Al Staufer's Pennsy Power I and II books show scoops under both types of tenders in I-1 service. See PP I, page 67, also see page 78 for a shot of one scooping water. PP II, page 44, shows both long and short tenders with scoops. You didn't mention whose models they are -- I have heard, I think, that the KTM scoops (Max Gray, Westside, US Hobbies), may be specific for, say, NYC, but not PRR, or vice versa. That's just a vague memory I have. I'll try to check it out, but, frankly, I would rather not know. It's enough hassle correcting the details I am familiar with. Stephen Bartlett O Scaler !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 26 Jul 97 13:14:34 UT Subject: N5 info Content-Length: 904 N5 the world's first steel cabin car. Produced by Lines East in 1914 with Arch bar Leaf Spring trucks, "K" brake system, brake levers on each end platform No crash bars Later updated wiht Ajax brake wheels and AB brake system and crash posts N5A introduced in 1937 rebuilt from N5 cars, Duryea spring cushion underframe AB brake system, Ajax brake wheels crash posts N5B Built new 1941 similar to N5 hand rails on end higher, windows square corners and narrower crash post AB brakes Ajax brake wheels N5C built new 1942 round windows, larger streamlined cupola similar to N8, lower belt rail, no vertical butt strip. N5E introduced in 1945 same as N5 with crash posts, AB brakes except no belt rail, 4 sq. windows on each side cupola off center same design as N8 N5F same as N5A except toolbox/battery box mounted beneath the frame opposite the generator. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 26 Jul 97 13:55:18 UT Subject: Re: I-1s Question Content-Length: 1467 In a message dated 97-07-26 13:00:48 EDT, you write: > My "O" scale I-1 (short tender) includes a water scoop - and so does the >long one with the 3 porthole window "art deco" brakeman's shack. I thought >this feature was exclusive to PASSENGER and "Dual Service" locomotives (M-1 >J-1) > Assumining this is correct - no reason to doubt it - anyone ever see >photos of or read about an I-1 actually using this feature? The presence or absence of the water scoop is dependent on the class of the tender not the class of the locomotive. As built the I1s all were equipped with 90F82 tenders. in 1926 100 130F82a tenders were assigned to I1s. The 100 90F82 tenders were converted to 90P70 and assigned to K4s locos. Two fo the 130F82a tenders were rebuilt as 130P70 tenders for use with the 2 K5s locos. In 1930 43 130F82a were rebuilt to 130P75 and assigned to K4s locos. Numerous other 130F82a tenders were rerassigned from I1s to M1 units. The M1 110P75 tenders were assigned to K4s allowing the 90P70 to be returned to I1s . These were reclassed back to 90F82 with the water scoop intact. Other tenders assigned to the I1s include 180F82 which were rebuilt to 180P75 and returned to I1s later as 180F82 with the coop intact. Also 210F82 (coast-to-coast) tenders were assigned to the I1s. While this does not answer the question did the I1 scoop water it does explain the presence of scoops on I1 tenders. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 26 Jul 97 15:12:00 UT Subject: Re: N5 info Content-Length: 624 Rich, According to Dec. 73 Keystone article by Robert Johnson and Gary Rausch, there was a single car class of N5D, #477184, built on the same design as N5B but with a "sliding sill underframe." article states that in 1957 this car was assigned to the Chesepeake Region along with the sole NDa and all eight N5F cabins. I wrote my initial reply off the top of my head and out of Morning Sun"s PRR Color Guides. and forgot about the higher handrails and windows. Pride goeth before the fall. Got a copy of this article to Jim Hebner, a Penn Central modeler from Springfield. who made to original inquiry. Tom V. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: sbartlet@capecod.net Date: 26 Jul 97 16:08:49 UT Subject: Re: I-1s Question Content-Length: 415 As a follow-up to my comment re: accuracy of the model water scoops applied to KTM-manufactured O scale tenders, a friend of mine is of the opinion that the scoops are "correct" for PRR use, being more or less modelled after the PRR prototype. A quick comparison of several PRR models and the 1940 Locomotive Cyclopedia, which shows examples of both PRR and NYC scoops, bears this out. Steve Bartlett !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jer@smellycat.com Date: 26 Jul 97 20:34:02 UT Subject: The Pennsy will live again! (sort of) Content-Length: 2696 Tonight I was looking through one of the legal documents issued by the STB on the Conrail acquisition by the PRR and NYC. (I got this through John Krattinger's CRTS mailing list.) Anyway, about 1/3 way through the 52 KB file, I came across the following paragraphs that I found really interesting: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Formation of NYC and PRR To effect the Division, CRC will form two wholly owned subsidiaries (referred to collectively as the Subsidiaries): New York Central Lines LLC (NYC) and Pennsylvania Lines LLC (PRR). CSXC will have exclusive authority to appoint the officers and directors of NYC; NSC will likewise have exclusive authority to appoint the officers and directors of PRR; and CRC, as the sole member of the Subsidiaries, will (with certain exceptions) follow CSXC's and NSC's directions with respect to the management and operation of NYC and PRR, respectively. Allocation of Conrail Assets and Liabilities On the date of the Division, CRC will assign to NYC and PRR certain of CRC's assets. NYC will be assigned those CRC assets designated to be operated as part of CSX's rail system (the NYC-Allocated Assets), and PRR will be assigned those CRC assets designated to be operated as part of NS's rail system (the PRR-Allocated Assets). These assets will include, among other things, certain lines and facilities currently operated by CRC, whether owned by CRC or operated by CRC under trackage rights. Certain additional assets (referred to as the Retained Assets) will continue to be held by CRR and CRC (or their subsidiaries other than NYC and PRR) and will be operated by them for the benefit of CSX and NS. [snip--the rest of the document describes who gets what] ------------------------------------------------------------------- So while the public will see CSX and NS simply dividing CR, under the legal covers, they will be using subsidiary companies named after the PRR and NYC as legal vehicles for conveying the assets that CSX and NS are to receive to their new owners. In essence, the Penn Central merger is being undone. The Pennsy will live again (sort of). Now if NS would just start painting their power Tuscan Red, we'd be all set! [I also sent this to my Penn Central mailing list, so my apologies to anybody on both lists who gets this twice.] Later, -Jer -- Jerry W. Jordak The boxcars and flatbeds, whistle blowin' steam mailto:jer@smellycat.com That was yesterday http://prozac.cwru.edu/jer/ Now those big trains don't come anymore Acts 16:31 <>< -- Restless Heart, "Big Iron Horses" !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: prr643@usa.net Date: 26 Jul 97 21:12:52 UT Subject: Re: The Pennsy will live again! (sort of) Content-Length: 1041 I actual I like the idea!! even if it is only legal mobo-jubo! But since NS only hauls freight wouldn't the power have to be painted Bruns= wick GREEN? Tom von Trott > >So while the public will see CSX and NS simply dividing CR, under the >legal covers, they will be using subsidiary companies named after the >PRR and NYC as legal vehicles for conveying the assets that CSX and >NS are to receive to their new owners. In essence, the Penn Central >merger is being undone. The Pennsy will live again (sort of). Now if NS >would just start painting their power Tuscan Red, we'd be all set! > >[I also sent this to my Penn Central mailing list, so my apologies to >anybody on both lists who gets this twice.] > >Later, >-Jer > >-- >Jerry W. Jordak The boxcars and flatbeds, whistle blowin' st= eam >mailto:jer@smellycat.com That was yesterday >http://prozac.cwru.edu/jer/ Now those big trains don't come anymore >Acts 16:31 <>< -- Restless Heart, "Big Iron Horses" > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: 26 Jul 97 21:28:19 UT Subject: Tender Scoops and Track Pans Content-Length: 803 I recall reading a story - years ago - of a Pennsy crew diverted over NYC trackage with an NYC "pilot" engine. In the story NYC crew in the lead blew some strange whistle signals Pennsy crew did not recognize - and shortly afterwords the train hit the trackpans. Pennsy crew noted they were also running low on water and agreed to listen for the signal. When the signal was repeated - PRR fireman lowered his scoop and got enough water to complete the detour without stopping... "Very good" said the Engineeer - "how did you know the scoop would fit ?" Of course they didn't know - but NYC and PRR had probabbly come up with very similar soloutions to the same problem - maybe even used common vendors. How many other roads used trackpans? Dick Ross cleveland !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: wa4bpw@Shelby.Net Date: 26 Jul 97 21:31:11 UT Subject: Re: LOOKING FOR TRENTON NJ PRR YARD PICTURES FROM 1963 Content-Length: 1126 Eric I have to apologise the pictures are not on pages they are on vcr tape and I have not made copies of this tape yet this tape is very special to me and I keep it in a special place it goes from old rivits to I think the Jersey transit last trip for a gg1. I will come up with a price as soon as possible as I find someone to copy this tape take care and God bless Sam ---------- > From: eminton@hula.net > To: Members of group > Subject: Re: LOOKING FOR TRENTON NJ PRR YARD PICTURES FROM 1963 > Date: Wednesday, July 23, 1997 11:07 PM > > I would be very pleased to see the pictures of GG1's you have ... > GREATEST motive power ever built ... to bad we haven't made new ones to > replace them with state of the art material. > > Aloha, > Eric > > wa4bpw@Shelby.Net wrote: > > > HAVE BEEN TRYING TO FIND PICTURES OF THE PRR YARD IN AND AROUND > > TRENTON NJ > > IN THE 1963 ON TIME SPAN ALSO THE PRR GG1 HAS FASCINATED ME SINCE I > > FIRST > > LAYED EYES ON MY FIRST ONE I NOW HAVE AN ALMOST NOTHING BUT GG1 FILM > > THAT I > > WILL BE GLAD TO SHARE WITH > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 26 Jul 97 21:41:10 UT Subject: Crew Pay Content-Length: 330 To the group, How did train crews get paid by the PRR? Were there any differences for weight of locomotives, tonnage or distance. What effect did seniority have in crew pay? Any difference in the post steam PRR? Thanks for any information about my questions. Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: prr643@usa.net Date: 26 Jul 97 22:10:36 UT Subject: Re: Crew Pay Content-Length: 506 I'd be very interested in this also Tom von Trott =========== REPLY PARTITION =========== On 07/26/97, at 09:41 PM, hfitch@maranatha.net wrote: >To the group, > > >How did train crews get paid by the PRR? > >Were there any differences for weight of locomotives, >tonnage or distance. > >What effect did seniority have in crew pay? > >Any difference in the post steam PRR? > >Thanks for any information about my questions. > > > >Harry Fitch >hfitch@maranatha.net >Acts 4:12 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: postmaster@dsop.com Date: 27 Jul 97 00:13:09 UT Subject: undeliverable mail Content-Length: 357 Message-Id: X-Mailer: RingTwice for the Macintosh Date: 27 Jul 97 00:13:09 UT From: postmaster@dsop.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: undeliverable mail Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Your message to: was not sent. Syntax Error. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: eminton@hula.net Date: 27 Jul 97 00:14:06 UT Subject: Re: LOOKING FOR TRENTON NJ PRR YARD PICTURES FROM 1963 Content-Length: 1479 Aloha, No appology needed but thank you for letting me know. I moddle the PRR because of the G's. If I had the money I would own 137 brass models & one 1:1 Scale . Last summer I saw rivits at the PRR museam at Strasburg. Thanks, Eric wa4bpw@Shelby.Net wrote: > Eric I have to apologise the pictures are not on pages they are on vcr > tape > and I have not made copies of this tape yet this tape is very special > to me > and I keep it in a special place it goes from old rivits to I think > the > Jersey transit last trip for a gg1. I will come up with a price as > soon as > possible as I find someone to copy this tape take care and God bless > Sam > > ---------- > > From: eminton@hula.net > > To: Members of group > > Subject: Re: LOOKING FOR TRENTON NJ PRR YARD PICTURES FROM 1963 > > Date: Wednesday, July 23, 1997 11:07 PM > > > > I would be very pleased to see the pictures of GG1's you have ... > > GREATEST motive power ever built ... to bad we haven't made new ones > to > > replace them with state of the art material. > > > > Aloha, > > Eric > > > > wa4bpw@Shelby.Net wrote: > > > > > HAVE BEEN TRYING TO FIND PICTURES OF THE PRR YARD IN AND AROUND > > > TRENTON NJ > > > IN THE 1963 ON TIME SPAN ALSO THE PRR GG1 HAS FASCINATED ME SINCE > I > > > FIRST > > > LAYED EYES ON MY FIRST ONE I NOW HAVE AN ALMOST NOTHING BUT GG1 > FILM > > > THAT I > > > WILL BE GLAD TO SHARE WITH > > > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: sbartlet@capecod.net Date: 27 Jul 97 07:36:52 UT Subject: Re: Tender Scoops and Track Pans Content-Length: 805 VVA249@aol.com wrote: > > - maybe even used common vendors. > How many other roads used trackpans? > Dick Ross > cleveland Referring again to the 1941 Locomotive Cyclopedia, pages 896 and 897,the PRR and NYCS scoops don't look the same; also shown is a B&O scoop arrangement, credited to Baldwin Loco Works, so there's at least one more railroad that scooped water. Railroads did a lot of their own design work, so it is not surprising that pieces of equipment that do the same job are not identical. New York Central Mechanical Engineer Karl Kantola told of having redesigned the scoop and cistern vent arrangement back in the 1920's to eliminate water spray that was capable of blowing in the windows of passenger trains met at speed while taking water. Stephen Bartlett !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 27 Jul 97 11:26:01 UT Subject: Re: N5 info Content-Length: 236 Tom: I forgot about the lone N5D. The information which I posted was meant to supplement your post. It came from Caboose Data Book No. 2 Cabin Cars pf the Pennsylvania and Long Island Railroads by NJ International. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 27 Jul 97 11:40:09 UT Subject: Re: The Pennsy will live again! (sort of) Content-Length: 308 In a message dated 97-07-27 01:55:03 EDT, prr643@usa.net writes: >But since NS only hauls freight wouldn't the power have to be painted >Brunswick GREEN? > > NO. It would be painted dark green locomotive enamel. There is no such monster as Brunswick Green in official PRR documents. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: 27 Jul 97 11:54:59 UT Subject: Re: Crew Pay Content-Length: 1134 Had a friend - now dead - who worked for Pennsy in labor relations. Engine crew wages were tied to weight on drivers - locomotives which were modified were constantly being returned to Altoona to be weighed with Company and Union reps in attendance. One of his stories involved a bonus clause for fireman on hand fired locomotives. They were to be paid extra if they had to "double handle" coal ie shovel it from pile to deck - and again to firebox. After a dramatic increase in claims for this bonus - Company sent "observers" to towers outside of major cities and they witnessed firemen shoveling coal BACK to the pile so that they could claim the bonus ! My Grandfather - union man - was convinced that lead trucks and trailing trucks were there to keep wages down - less weight on drivers - wouldn't buy any of the engineering reasons ! Many people who had familiarty with this part of Pennsy system suspected that it may have played a role - as to why Pennsy continued to build and improve classes that were regarded as obsolete on other lines (E-6 and final batch of K-4s) Dick Ross Cleveland !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: 27 Jul 97 12:20:25 UT Subject: "Observers" Content-Length: 942 Comments in previous post "crew pay" explain why - down to today Railroad men are a lot friendlier once they are SURE that guys with cameras are "just railfans" and NOT "from the Company" Also - for you diesel fans - my Paul Mansfield my late "labor relations" friend visited my HO layout years ago. He immediatly pointed out the extra stripe on the rain gutters of the FM "C" liners. "you know why that's there?" ha asked. I figured it was just "trim" He pointed out that the overhead clearances on the FM unit - particularly at the rear - were much less tham on GM units and said added that because crews kept hitting their heads - falling back to the ground" AND of course when I asked this 50 year system wide Pennsy vet about "Brunswick Green" he replied "oh yes, that's what they painted the Electrics" after further questions he was adamant - every steam loco he ever saw was BLACK. Dick Ross Cleveland !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 27 Jul 97 12:46:10 UT Subject: Re: N5 info Content-Length: 1898 In a message dated 97-07-27 11:38:09 EDT, you write: << The information which I posted was meant to supplement your post. >> Rich, This and other posts where I trust solely my head are becoming a learning experience for me. I was more concerned that I was giving Jim Hebner, a Penn Central Modeler from Springfield, Ohio, with whom I'm accquainted, faulty information. I'm realizing that regular people, non-SPFs, are relying on PRR-Talk as a source of accurate information. My post was based upon a quick check of the PRR Color guides and my faulty memory of the definitive story on 20th Centruy cabin cars contained in the December 1973 issue of The Keystone. As it tuirned out, Jim was looking for information about the N5d, which he had discovered from a one-line reference in material on cabin cars that had survived through to Conrail. He queried about it in private E-mail to me but I had already discovered my error while copying the story for him. I could not have provided a correct answer by fishing out my copy of Cabin Cars of the PRR and LIRR because like the references, other than the December 1973 issue of The Keystone, it makes no reference to N5d. The moral of this sotry is that "Pennsylvania Railroad Cabin Cars," by Robert L. Johnson and Robert L. Rausch, The Keystone, Vol. 6, iss. 4, December 1973 is the only source of complete information 20th Century PRR cabin cars that I know of as it is the only story that I have read which makes any reference to the N5d. I will follow this post with roster information about 20th Centruy PRR cabin cars and a bibliography on the subject. Tom V., out on the Little Miami RR, the Panhandle's Springfield branch where, according to "Pennsylvania Railroad Cabin Cars,' the N6b reigned supreme in 1957 with 122 units out of a total of 251 cabins of all classes assigned to the Buckeye Region. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: wa4bpw@Shelby.Net Date: 27 Jul 97 20:59:11 UT Subject: Re: Crew Pay Content-Length: 2063 It is my understanding that the PRR locomotive engineers and crew were paid by No 1 of course by senioty plus local of through trains as well as yard service.Now an experianced GG1 engineer working a 75 to 80 mph or more train making on time stops and starts as best as humanly possible could get a bonus if no accidents of misshaps occurred as well as no complaints from the passengers,again reasonable complaints but not everytime he made a trip. on the PRR safety was of paramount importance my book of rules from 1956 makes this quite clear . In 1946 there was a small book of rules working sometimes by the seat of thier pants but as of 1956 things had changed.PRR was a big entry into the business world and a fast moving railroad.Customers were dependant on the Pennsy to move their goods across the nation.I think therefore I am any way my wife is from Pittsburg Pa her dad was an engineer for the Union RR a division of US Steel her x father was an engineer for the Union RR and his dad was an engineer for the PRR but he was also a steam nut and when the diesels came he decided to give it up and he quit. I guess he couldnt stand progress.In my openion I think if the PRR personel had not gotten so gready and thought twice about the merger the PRR would be a viable entity still today things change I know but wouldnt it be great to see what would have happened. Also the GG1 were taken out of service long before their time and with a little up grading would be running today. with very few break downs. ---------- > From: hfitch@maranatha.net > To: Members of group > Subject: Crew Pay > Date: Saturday, July 26, 1997 5:41 PM > > To the group, > > > How did train crews get paid by the PRR? > > Were there any differences for weight of locomotives, > tonnage or distance. > > What effect did seniority have in crew pay? > > Any difference in the post steam PRR? > > Thanks for any information about my questions. > > > > Harry Fitch > hfitch@maranatha.net > Acts 4:12 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 27 Jul 97 23:28:31 UT Subject: Re: Crew Pay Content-Length: 2388 My own opinion, It always seemed such a secretive thing when a locomotive was weighed in the scale house at Altoona or the commercial builder. If wages were in consideration, that would explain part of that. As for the hand-bomber locomotives, the PRR would have probably ran K4s and L1s locomotives to the end of the steam era without a stoker if it were not for the ICC ruling. (I for one ache at the thought of 70 square feet of hungry grate area starving for fuel) What would have been the impact on the company performance in the operating department if they had built the class E-6, K2-3 & 4, L-1, G-5 with stokers when new. Although some of these classes never saw stokers, it makes me wonder what the difference would have been. If they would have ordered the class J engines without stokers, then we would know that the PRR was too cheap for their own good! Any volunteers out there to hand fire a J1a or a Q2? This was in many ways a frugal company for it's size and impact on the industry. hfitch@maranatha.net ---------- > From: VVA249@aol.com > To: Members of group > Subject: Re: Crew Pay > Date: Sunday, July 27, 1997 7:54 AM > > Had a friend - now dead - who worked for Pennsy in labor relations. > Engine crew wages were tied to weight on drivers - locomotives which were > modified were constantly being returned to Altoona to be weighed with Company > and Union reps in attendance. > One of his stories involved a bonus clause for fireman on hand fired > locomotives. They were to be paid extra if they had to "double handle" coal > ie shovel it from pile to deck - and again to firebox. After a dramatic > increase in claims for this bonus - Company sent "observers" to towers > outside of major cities and they witnessed firemen shoveling coal BACK to the > pile so that they could claim the bonus ! > My Grandfather - union man - was convinced that lead trucks and trailing > trucks were there to keep wages down - less weight on drivers - wouldn't buy > any of the engineering reasons ! Many people who had familiarty with this > part of Pennsy system suspected that it may have played a role - as to why > Pennsy continued to build and improve classes that were regarded as obsolete > on other lines (E-6 and final batch of K-4s) > Dick Ross > Cleveland > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: 28 Jul 97 07:19:26 UT Subject: Re: Crew Pay - Content-Length: 270 And another conjecture - if "weight on drivers" was a signifigant portion of engine crew pay - would it explain - perhaps partly - the PRR reluctance to use boosters and to debate with the Unions whether the trailing truck was then an extra driver? Dick Ross !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 28 Jul 97 08:16:15 UT Subject: BROADWAY LTD Mid-Train Lounge Content-Length: 669 I posted to my passenger classes page the profile for the Mid-Train Lounge on the Broadway Limited. The car featured two double bedrooms, a secretary's room, a barber shop, show bath, and bar-lounge. ("Harbor" series.) There were only two cars of this type; both on the Bway Ltd. What was their class designation? Unless I hear otherwise, I am showing them as "PS2L". Besides the aforementioned PS2L, I have also posted the page for PS18 ("City of" series; 18 roomettes.) --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 28 Jul 97 08:18:55 UT Subject: Passenger Wreck at Steelton, 35th Anniv Content-Length: 552 Today is the 35th Anniversary of the Pennsy passenger wreck at Steelton, Pa. A special on its way to a Philadelphia Phillies game derailed and rolled into the Susquehanna River, killing 19. The blame was placed on incomplete trackwork carried out in the days before the wreck. A copy of the investigation report is on "KC" at http://prr.dsop.com/passops . --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 28 Jul 97 09:03:22 UT Subject: Re: PRR Tenders (was Future Bowser) Content-Length: 1055 Just a note to let those of you concerned with Bowser's (Penn Line's?) incorrect tenders, I have successfully kitbashed 110-P-?? and 130-P-?? (sorry I forgot the deck height off hand) for my Bowser K4s. These were the most comon tenders to found behind K4s. I built them from the Bowser I1 long distance tender by taking two slices out of the body to shorten it. one out of the coal bin, and one out iof the tank. I then providing it with Keisel K4 tender trucks and associated details and filled the well on the rear used for access to the now-gone doghouse. The biggest discrepency from the prototype is probably the rear end sill. PRR passenger tenders had a flaired out stirrup on the rear. The freight tenders had foot boards and so only needed the traditional straight drop stirrups. The I-1, being freight, has staight drop strirrups and these are wrong on my kitbash K4 tenders. Anyone know of avbailable castings for these flaired out stirrup? They don't appear in ther Bowser catalog :-( regards Andy Miler !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: 28 Jul 97 10:21:17 UT Subject: Re: PRR Tenders (was Future Bowser) Content-Length: 1491 In a message dated 97-07-28 09:08:08 EDT, you write: << Just a note to let those of you concerned with Bowser's (Penn Line's?) incorrect tenders, I have successfully kitbashed 110-P-?? and 130-P-?? (sorry I forgot the deck height off hand) for my Bowser K4s. These were the most comon tenders to found behind K4s. I built them from the Bowser I1 long distance tender by taking two slices out of the body to shorten it. one out of the coal bin, and one out iof the tank. I then providing it with Keisel K4 tender trucks and associated details and filled the well on the rear used for access to the now-gone doghouse. The biggest discrepency from the prototype is probably the rear end sill. PRR passenger tenders had a flaired out stirrup on the rear. The freight tenders had foot boards and so only needed the traditional straight drop stirrups. The I-1, being freight, has staight drop strirrups and these are wrong on my kitbash K4 tenders. Anyone know of avbailable castings for these flaired out stirrup? They don't appear in ther Bowser catalog :-( regards Andy Miler >> I'm sorry, I can't answer your question concerning the availability of the castings for the flaired out stirrups. But, you have generated a couple of questions that I have. Will Bowser sell an I1 tender as a seperate item? You also mentioned some Keisel K-4 tender trucks. Are these available from Bowser or some other source? Thanks, George !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 28 Jul 97 11:04:27 UT Subject: Please Vote for "Keystone Crossings" TODAY!!! Content-Length: 848 "Keystone Crossings" is listed on Starting Point's list of "new" Web sites. This doesn't mean it is a new site, it means it is new to their indexing system. It is/will be listed in the "personal" web sites section. During its time in the "new sites" list -- which is TODAY ONLY -- it is eligible to be voted "Hot Site of the Day" by Starting Point. Surely I wouldn't mind receiving this "honor", though it doesn't offer much of a winner's purse! Please take a moment to vote...it's really easy and fast: Go to "http://www.stpt.com/personal/personalNEW.html" and click on the check mark icon in front of the "Keystone Crossings" entry. Thanks! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 28 Jul 97 11:22:34 UT Subject: Re: The Pennsy will live again! (sort of) Content-Length: 1060 > >But since NS only hauls freight wouldn't the power have to be painted > >Brunswick GREEN? > > > > > NO. It would be painted dark green locomotive enamel. There is no such > monster as Brunswick Green in official PRR documents. There's a saying "Would not a rose by any other name smell as sweet?" Just because as a corporation (or a government) you tell me the name is dark green locomotive enamel doesn't make it *not* Brunswick Green. By the same token, the fact that CMU renamed our building "Cyert Hall" hasn't bothered those of us who remember when it was UCC. You can make the sign, the stationery, say whatever you damn well please, but enough of us will keep calling it by the real name that that's not going to die;-) Ob-PRR: The Fort Wayne bridge at the south end of Beaver Falls still has a keystone on it! You won't see it unless you turn right off northbound PA 18 and double back under it past the sewage plant, but it's there. A friend will be digitizing a photo he took and it should be on the web soon. -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: dennis@bbn.com Date: 28 Jul 97 12:53:24 UT Subject: Re: The Pennsy will live again! (sort of) Content-Length: 976 On 26 Jul, jer@smellycat.com wrote: > Formation of NYC and PRR > > To effect the Division, CRC will form two wholly owned subsidiaries: > New York Central Lines LLC (NYC) and Pennsylvania Lines LLC (PRR). > [ ... ] You know, as soon as the maps were published, it was pretty obvious that the rough agreement was that CSX got the NYC and NS got the PRR, but this makes it really explicit. Of course, it leaves out the "little guys" (*that* is sure to get me mail!), but it made me think that NS should repaint their loco fleet in Dark Locomotive Enamel, which isn't that much of a change! Maybe even a tiny "PRR" under the number on the cab, for those locos so assigned! Anybody got a good graphic of an NS loco I can doctor? Dennis Rockwell dennis@bbn.com _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 28 Jul 97 13:11:14 UT Subject: Re: The Pennsy will live again! (sort of) Content-Length: 990 From: dennis@bbn.com > You know, as soon as the maps were published, it was pretty > obvious that the rough agreement was that CSX got the NYC > and NS got the PRR, but this makes it really explicit. Of > course, it leaves out the "little guys" (*that* is sure to > get me mail!), but it made me think that NS should repaint > their loco fleet in Dark Locomotive Enamel, which isn't that > much of a change! Maybe even a tiny "PRR" under the number > on the cab, for those locos so assigned! Just a few months ago this list was full of messages about the Pennsy's founders and past presidents "rolling in the grave" over the issue of NS running the ex-PRR main...especially at Horseshoe Curve. Now you're practically celebrating it! Any chance we can get NS/CSX to split up Amtrak? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: eminton@hula.net Date: 28 Jul 97 13:49:38 UT Subject: Re: Please Vote for "Keystone Crossings" TODAY!!! Content-Length: 992 Aloha, I tried but the system was down Eric britton@pit-magnus.com wrote: > "Keystone Crossings" is listed on Starting Point's list of "new" Web > sites. > This doesn't mean it is a new site, it means it is new to their > indexing > system. It is/will be listed in the "personal" web sites section. > > During its time in the "new sites" list -- which is TODAY ONLY -- it > is > eligible to be voted "Hot Site of the Day" by Starting Point. Surely I > > wouldn't mind receiving this "honor", though it doesn't offer much of > a > winner's purse! > > Please take a moment to vote...it's really easy and fast: > > Go to "http://www.stpt.com/personal/personalNEW.html" and click on the > check > mark icon in front of the "Keystone Crossings" entry. > > Thanks! > --------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > Progressive Information Technologies > britton@pit-magnus.com > http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 28 Jul 97 13:56:47 UT Subject: Re: Please Vote for "Keystone Crossings" TODAY!!! Content-Length: 442 From: eminton@hula.net > I tried but the system was down Thanks anyway...looks like they are having problems. I went to show someone the page and "KC" was no longer listed!!! I will be adding a "button" to my site from whence you can vote. 8-) --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: 28 Jul 97 14:00:15 UT Subject: Re: Tender Scoops and Track Pans Content-Length: 393 Ref: Model Railroader Cyclopedia-Vol 1: " On roads such as the New York Central, Pennsylvania, Central of New Jersey, Reading, and Baltimore & Ohio, where traffic density warrented it, tenders were equiped with scoops to take water on the fly, 4000 gallons at a time, from track tanks between the rails". Nothing was mentioned about system compatibility, however. Regards, George !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: 28 Jul 97 14:14:27 UT Subject: Re: PRR Tenders (was Future Bowser) Content-Length: 366 In a message dated 97-07-28 09:08:08 EDT, you write: << Anyone know of avbailable castings for these flaired out stirrup? They don't appear in ther Bowser catalog :-( >> Andy, Custom Finishing in Walther's Catalog shows a 40" standard stirrup step. It's Part Nbr: 247-302. I don't know if it is the flared type you are looking for, however. George !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 28 Jul 97 14:54:51 UT Subject: Track Pans Content-Length: 853 This talk of track pans has me wondering...I've seen videos of steamers taking on water on the fly, but I have no idea how long these troughs were. How much of an issue was timing? Seems that if you lower your "scoop" too soon or leave it down too long there would be consequences when you hit the end of the trough at speed! Construction-wise, I guess the inner ends must be ramped up....to kick the "scoop" upwards if the end of the trough has been reached and the "scoop" hasn't yet been raised. Perhaps the outer end was also ramped to bump the scoop up if it was down too early. Can't imagine the whole thing was up to human timing. Anyone know? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 28 Jul 97 14:56:27 UT Subject: Re: PRR Tenders (was Future Bowser) Content-Length: 544 Thanx, I'll check it out; however, if it really is the flaired stirrup, it would have to come in a pair, one right and one left. regards Andy Miller >In a message dated 97-07-28 09:08:08 EDT, you write: > ><< Anyone know of avbailable castings for these > flaired out stirrup? They don't appear in ther Bowser catalog :-( >> > >Andy, > >Custom Finishing in Walther's Catalog shows a 40" standard stirrup >step. It's Part Nbr: 247-302. I don't know if it is the flared type you >are looking for, however. > >George > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 28 Jul 97 15:17:09 UT Subject: Re: The Pennsy will live again! (sort of) Content-Length: 63 NEW LOGO FOR NS Throughbred inside a Keystone. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 28 Jul 97 15:25:54 UT Subject: 20th Century Pennsy Cabin Cars Content-Length: 5161 PRR CABIN CAR CONDENSED ROSTER, MAY 15, 1957 CLASS NUMBER SERIES # of CARS CLASS NUMBER SERIES # of CARS ND 476039, 476087, N6b 478315, 478326 2 476419, 476460 4 980000-980020 15 980033, 980040 2 NDa 479815 1 980100-980189 64 980225-980243 8 N5 476993 - 477619 571 980261-980263 3 478501-478519 17 980300-980318 18 478876-478888 13 980335-980358 21 479702-479717 15 980406-980414 5 16 980427 1 980502, 980503 2 N5a 477110, 477267, 980526-980565 29 477292, 477587 4 980650, 980651 2 980670 1 N5b 477620-477819 200 980700-980955 192 981000-981008 7 N5c 477820-478019 199 981101-981140 27 981201-981220 13 N5d 477184 1 981301-981331 19 981379, 981380 2 N5e 477594 1 981500-981540 31 981575-981593 13 N5f 477150, 477217, 981650-981854 154 477227, 477335, 982001-982243 177 477439, 477457, 982400-982419 15 478503, 479701 8 982460-982476 12 982497 1 N6a 980229 1 982800-982804 5 982825, 982826 2 N8 478020-478219 199 982850 1 983001, 983002 2 983024 1 NX23 478520-478575 12 983045-983071 20 ___ 867 PRR CABIN CAR REGIONAL ASSIGNMENT SUMMARY, MAY 15, 1957 REGION ND NDa N5 N5a N5b N5c N5d N5e N5f N6a N6b N8 NX23 TOTAL Buckeye 36 29 20 122 44 251 Chesapeake 1 1 42 9 9 1 8 93 15 1 180 Lake 124 28 19 120 28 319 New York 1 33 1 1 14 23 9 2 84 Northern 94 1 17 35 57 1 205 Northwestern 4 1 16 9 1 173 11 215 Philadelphia 82 1 6 11 74 26 200 Pittsburgh 2 196 89 78 1 114 57 8 545 Southwestern 5 5 4 91 9 114 ________________________________________________________________________ Total 4 1 616 4 200 199 1 1 8 1 867 199 12 2113 *This list does not include seven Class N5 passenger cabin cara numbered 5001, 5010-5013, 5015 & 5018. **Units in the older classifications, the ND, NDa, N5, N6a & N6b were given different numbers when placed in service. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 28 Jul 97 15:27:05 UT Subject: Re: The Pennsy will live again! (sort of) Off subject Content-Length: 1032 In a message dated 97-07-28 14:06:24 EDT, you write: << There's a saying "Would not a rose by any other name smell as sweet?" Just because as a corporation (or a government) you tell me the name is dark green locomotive enamel doesn't make it *not* Brunswick Green. By the same token, the fact that CMU renamed our building "Cyert Hall" hasn't bothered those of us who remember when it was UCC. You can make the sign, the stationery, say whatever you damn well please, but enough of us will keep calling it by the real name that that's not going to die;-) >> If you really wanted to do a comparison why not call it Carnegie Institute of Technology rather than CMU? BTW the real name is dark green locomotive enamel not "Brunswick green". Pennsy called it that. They specified the mix for the color. Any other name, i.e. Brunswick green is the ficticious name fabricated by some paint manufacture or modeler in an attmept to put a less meaningful name to the color. Probably a NYC fan. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hosam@gc.net Date: 28 Jul 97 15:54:37 UT Subject: Re: The Pennsy will live again! (sort of) Content-Length: 432 At 11:22 AM 7/28/97 UT, you wrote: >> >But since NS only hauls freight wouldn't the power have to be painted >> >Brunswick GREEN? >> > >> > >> NO. It would be painted dark green locomotive enamel. There is no such >> monster as Brunswick Green in official PRR documents. > Greetings, Now is the time to vote on this critical issue: Brunswick green? Dark Green Locomotive Enamel? HOSAM !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: postmaster@dsop.com Date: 28 Jul 97 16:00:37 UT Subject: undeliverable mail Content-Length: 363 Message-Id: X-Mailer: RingTwice for the Macintosh Date: 28 Jul 97 16:00:37 UT From: postmaster@dsop.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: undeliverable mail Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Your message to: was not sent. Syntax Error. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 28 Jul 97 16:07:36 UT Subject: Re: Track Pans Content-Length: 1162 In a message dated 97-07-28 15:47:13 EDT, you write: << This talk of track pans has me wondering...I've seen videos of steamers taking on water on the fly, but I have no idea how long these troughs were. How much of an issue was timing? Seems that if you lower your "scoop" too soon or leave it down too long there would be consequences when you hit the end of the trough at speed! Construction-wise, I guess the inner ends must be ramped up....to kick the "scoop" upwards if the end of the trough has been reached and the "scoop" hasn't yet been raised. Perhaps the outer end was also ramped to bump the scoop up if it was down too early. Can't imagine the whole thing was up to human timing. Anyone know? >> The track pans had markers at each end (lighted at night) to let the fireman know when it was safe to lower the scoop and when he needed to raise it. Yep all human timing. Pans were bi-directional. The one drawing which I have is "ramped" at each end. However, if the scoop was lowered too soon they would rip out the ties. Which happened. Translated to time off without pay for the fireman. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 28 Jul 97 18:53:03 UT Subject: S1 in HO Content-Length: 333 The new MR has an ad for Challenger Imports. This fall they have the S1 #6100 coming in HO. Too rich for my blood! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org Date: 28 Jul 97 18:56:11 UT Subject: Re: Track Diagrams Content-Length: 506 > > Would anyone be able to advise me where I might obtain track diagrams > of the trackage between Broadway Station and Cooper Tower in Camden, > New Jersey during the time the PRSL freight line connected with it? Richard, did you check the map page on my site? I have an interlocking diagram for COOPER. Does it serve your needs, or is it not sufficiently complete? (Or is this PC map too old for your era?) PRSL maps are next, after I get done with Pgh Div. -- Mark !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org Date: 28 Jul 97 19:12:49 UT Subject: Re: Track Pans Content-Length: 932 > This talk of track pans has me wondering...I've seen videos of steamers > taking on water on the fly, but I have no idea how long these troughs were. > > How much of an issue was timing? Seems that if you lower your "scoop" too > soon or leave it down too long there would be consequences when you hit the > end of the trough at speed! > > Construction-wise, I guess the inner ends must be ramped up....to kick the > "scoop" upwards if the end of the trough has been reached and the "scoop" > hasn't yet been raised. Perhaps the outer end was also ramped to bump the > scoop up if it was down too early. > > Can't imagine the whole thing was up to human timing. Anyone know? Jerry, you need some copies of PRR employee timetables. :-) Track pans had signals at the start, middle, and end. I can't for the life of me now remember for absolute sure what color these were, but they were there. -- Mark !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 28 Jul 97 19:24:12 UT Subject: Re: The Pennsy will live again! (sort of) Off subject Content-Length: 727 > If you really wanted to do a comparison why not call it Carnegie Institute of > Technology rather than CMU? This building didn't change, they changed its name. CMU was CIT plus Mellon Institute. CIT is in fact still extant and if I ever get around to graduating that will be the "school" I graduate from. > BTW the real name is dark green locomotive enamel not "Brunswick green". > Pennsy called it that. They specified the mix for the color. Any other > name, i.e. Brunswick green is the ficticious name fabricated by some paint > manufacture or modeler in an attmept to put a less meaningful name to the > color. Probably a NYC fan. If so, they must have been pretty damn influential... -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jkehrli@erols.com Date: 28 Jul 97 19:36:24 UT Subject: Re: Track Pans Content-Length: 622 To the best of my knowledge, the beginning and ending points of the pans were marked by small, single light signals, about four to six feet above the level of the ballast. The PRR Employee's Timetable for the Middle Division, dated as being in effect 27.Apr.30 states on page 100: "D2014 Trains must not exceed 45 mph when scooping water from track trough. The minimum speed required to scoop water is 20 mph. Enginemen must see that scoops are raised before passing the marker at the leaving end of the water troughs." Unfortunately I couldn't find the colors of the signals. Regards to all...Blane Rhoten !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 28 Jul 97 19:55:57 UT Subject: Re: Crew Pay - Content-Length: 1243 Expanding on Dick Ross's point. Your main point is very interesting. Until forced into "modern" steam, the PRR would not even look at a booster on an engine or tender truck. (the later I don't think they ever used?) Exception to the Rule 1 of ? At least one of the Baldwin built K4s engines used on the Broadway Ltd. had a booster for a while. (I think a delta truck was used) Or could it be that when faced with the refit on 425 K4s engines alone with boosters, was too much on the pocket book for the return on investment? Or was the PRR just plain, old fashion, Dutch treat cheep! (One joke is that the big guys at Broad Street wore their shoes so thin that they could step on a coin and tell if it was heads or tails) Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ---------- > From: VVA249@aol.com > To: Members of group > Subject: Re: Crew Pay - > Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 3:19 AM > > And another conjecture - if "weight on drivers" was a signifigant > portion of engine crew pay - would it explain - perhaps partly - the PRR > reluctance to use boosters and to debate with the Unions whether the trailing > truck was then an extra driver? > Dick Ross > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 28 Jul 97 20:11:39 UT Subject: Re: The Pennsy will live again! (sort of) Content-Length: 571 I am still in sack cloth and ashes. hfitch @maranatha.net > Just a few months ago this list was full of messages about the Pennsy's > founders and past presidents "rolling in the grave" over the issue of NS > running the ex-PRR main...especially at Horseshoe Curve. Now you're > practically celebrating it! > > Any chance we can get NS/CSX to split up Amtrak? > --------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > Progressive Information Technologies > britton@pit-magnus.com > http://www.pit-magnus.com > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jkehrli@erols.com Date: 28 Jul 97 20:14:52 UT Subject: [Fwd: Re: Track Pans] Content-Length: 985 Message-ID: <33DD2C38.167A@erols.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 19:33:12 -0400 From: "Jan R. Kehrli" Reply-To: jkehrli@erols.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: Track Pans References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To the best of my knowledge, the beginning and ending points of the pans were marked by small, single light signals, about four to six feet above the level of the ballast. The PRR Employee's Timetable for the Middle Division, dated as being in effect 27.Apr.30 states on page 100: "D2014 Trains must not exceed 45 mph when scooping water from track trough. The minimum speed required to scoop water is 20 mph. Enginemen must see that scoops are raised before passing the marker at the leaving end of the water troughs." Unfortunately I couldn't find the colors of the signals. Regards to all...Blane Rhoten !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 28 Jul 97 20:18:55 UT Subject: Re: The Pennsy will live again! (sort of) Off subject Content-Length: 407 Just too long to fit on a bottle of Floquil. > BTW the real name is dark green locomotive enamel not "Brunswick green". > Pennsy called it that. They specified the mix for the color. Any other > name, i.e. Brunswick green is the ficticious name fabricated by some paint > manufacture or modeler in an attmept to put a less meaningful name to the > color. Probably a NYC fan. > > Rich Orr > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 28 Jul 97 20:25:33 UT Subject: Re: The Pennsy will live again! (sort of) Content-Length: 839 I vote for black, sooty, oily, dirty and modeling in gray scale black & white to match the old photographs. OR using Floquil "grimy black" under florescent lamps. Harry Fitch ---------- > From: hosam@gc.net > To: Members of group > Subject: Re: The Pennsy will live again! (sort of) > Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 11:54 AM > > At 11:22 AM 7/28/97 UT, you wrote: > >> >But since NS only hauls freight wouldn't the power have to be painted > >> >Brunswick GREEN? > >> > > >> > > >> NO. It would be painted dark green locomotive enamel. There is no such > >> monster as Brunswick Green in official PRR documents. > > > Greetings, > > Now is the time to vote on this critical issue: > > Brunswick green? > > Dark Green Locomotive Enamel? > > > HOSAM > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DocMorrow@aol.com Date: 28 Jul 97 23:45:42 UT Subject: Re: Track Pans Content-Length: 366 there used to be a track pan at Glenolden .It started about Folcroft station and end just before Norwood station the ends were turned up to froce the pan out The way it worked there were markers at each to show the fireman when to drop the pan or left it.This was done fron a lever inside the cab.These are stations on the main line to Chester,PA. Doc Morrow !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 29 Jul 97 00:00:46 UT Subject: Re: 20th Century Pennsy Cabin Cars Content-Length: 553 If your copy of my cabin car roster post looks like the one I got, I'm sorry. I didn't know I was throwing it into a cusinart. (my browser is MS Explorer 3.11/AOL 3.11) Gee, I didn't know sending E-mail could do that to tabular material. Guess I'll have to construct an HTML table with the roster material on it. If you absolutely have to have the roster, e-mail me and I'll get it to you. Rich Orr thanked me for great information. Im waiting to learn if he actually recieved a legible copy or was being sarcastic. Live and learn. Tom V. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: railpix@philly.infi.net Date: 29 Jul 97 00:02:25 UT Subject: RAILPIX-SITE-UPDATE Content-Length: 1094 Hello all stations, I have added the following images to my RailPix Site; Amtrak X-2000 engineers view Amtrak Zoo Tower Conrail "Quality" SD-40 #6254 Septa West Trenton Train near Woodbourne Station Amtrak "Pumpkin" GP-9 #772 Pennsylvania Railroad M1B 4-8-2 #6755 Baldwin Switcher #1200 DS4-4 New York Central #4096 Conrail #9413 at work in Frankford Jct. Yard, Phila. Pa. Janney Freight Car Coupler Ad on the RailCard Page Enjoy !! Stan -- *********************************************************** -- *********************************************************** -----STAN'S RAILPIX---------- Railroad Photo Gallery http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/1030/railpix.html ****************************************************** Be carefull what you wish for, you just might get it !! *********************************************************** !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 29 Jul 97 00:43:31 UT Subject: Re: Track Pans Content-Length: 1171 Jerry, I believe their were signs posted along the right of way to assist in lowering and raising the scoops. ---------- > From: britton@pit-magnus.com > To: Members of group > Subject: Track Pans > Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 10:54 AM > > > This talk of track pans has me wondering...I've seen videos of steamers > taking on water on the fly, but I have no idea how long these troughs were. > > How much of an issue was timing? Seems that if you lower your "scoop" too > soon or leave it down too long there would be consequences when you hit the > end of the trough at speed! > > Construction-wise, I guess the inner ends must be ramped up....to kick the > "scoop" upwards if the end of the trough has been reached and the "scoop" > hasn't yet been raised. Perhaps the outer end was also ramped to bump the > scoop up if it was down too early. > > Can't imagine the whole thing was up to human timing. Anyone know? > --------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > Progressive Information Technologies > britton@pit-magnus.com > http://www.pit-magnus.com > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: postmaster@dsop.com Date: 29 Jul 97 01:36:08 UT Subject: undeliverable mail Content-Length: 363 Message-Id: X-Mailer: RingTwice for the Macintosh Date: 29 Jul 97 01:36:08 UT From: postmaster@dsop.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: undeliverable mail Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Your message to: was not sent. Syntax Error. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: postmaster@dsop.com Date: 29 Jul 97 01:36:54 UT Subject: undeliverable mail Content-Length: 353 Message-Id: X-Mailer: RingTwice for the Macintosh Date: 29 Jul 97 01:36:54 UT From: postmaster@dsop.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: undeliverable mail Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Your message to: was not sent. Syntax Error. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: eminton@hula.net Date: 29 Jul 97 03:59:48 UT Subject: Re: Track Pans Content-Length: 1245 Aloha, I have read several articles and the scoops were operated by human skills. the article make reference to the problems and penalties levied when the operator goofed. There is a video that is available that shows a train taking on water. If I remember the tittle I let you know. Eric britton@pit-magnus.com wrote: > This talk of track pans has me wondering...I've seen videos of > steamers > taking on water on the fly, but I have no idea how long these troughs > were. > > How much of an issue was timing? Seems that if you lower your "scoop" > too > soon or leave it down too long there would be consequences when you > hit the > end of the trough at speed! > > Construction-wise, I guess the inner ends must be ramped up....to kick > the > "scoop" upwards if the end of the trough has been reached and the > "scoop" > hasn't yet been raised. Perhaps the outer end was also ramped to bump > the > scoop up if it was down too early. > > Can't imagine the whole thing was up to human timing. Anyone know? > --------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > Progressive Information Technologies > britton@pit-magnus.com > http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: sbartlet@capecod.net Date: 29 Jul 97 08:31:07 UT Subject: Re: undeliverable mail Content-Length: 513 Serious question: Is this smoebody's handle or do you have Herman Munster subscribed?? postmaster@dsop.com wrote: > > Message-Id: > X-Mailer: RingTwice for the Macintosh > Date: 29 Jul 97 01:36:08 UT > From: postmaster@dsop.com > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: undeliverable mail > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Your message to: was not sent. > Syntax Error. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: sbartlet@capecod.net Date: 29 Jul 97 08:31:51 UT Subject: Re: Track Pans Content-Length: 391 bejm@eeg.ccf.org wrote: > > Track pans had signals at the start, middle, and end. I can't for the > life of me now remember for absolute sure what color these were, but they > were there. > > -- > Mark Double headers had to take water in turns; the middle track pan signal would have been a point for the first scoop to be raised and the second lowered. Steve Bartlett !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 29 Jul 97 08:34:04 UT Subject: Re: KC Passenger Ops Format Content-Length: 2414 >From: Andy Miller > >> I was just reviewing your new layout for Pasenger Ops. My only concern >> is that you are frequently ignoring the subclass data. For example, the >> PS2L HARBORs had a prewar PS2La (I think) which are the cars you >> describe; but there also was the PS2L postwar cars HARBOR COVE and >> HARBOR REST for which AMB does offer car sides in HO. > >The four sources I have do not include the COVE and REST. Please expand on >info and indicate which two are PS2L and which are PS2La. > >> Similarly there are two subclases of PS442. You discuss both of them >> without distinguishing between them. Of the two HO models you identify, >> one was prewar and one was postwar. > >Again, my sources, while they indicate two building periods, do not expand >upon the subclass numbers. I have the ECW mode as the 1938 version. Then >there was the later ACF units. What are the subclass designations? Is the >Brass Car Sides model the latter? >----------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton >----------------------------------------------- > Jerry, As a rule of thumb based upon personal observation, the "a" subclass was usually the pre-war car. The non-subclassed (e.g. PS442) was usually the postwar car. This leads me to believe that the car classes were created after the war. Based on this, Iwould assume that the pre-war cars were the PS2La and PS442a. HARBOR COVE and HARBOR REST were built by PS for the 1948 re-equipping of the B'way. A picture of one appears in A Dubin's "Some Classic Trains". References to their existance appear in many of Wayner's publications. I am not familiar off-hand with the BCS products. But the easy way to tell the 38 cars from the 48 cars is by the shape of the bedroom windows. The 38 cars have br windows which are almost square, i.e. they are as wide as they are high. The 48 br windows were almost twice as wide as they were high. Look at an IHC 10-6 to see a 48 br window. Look at the ECW 442 to see a 38 br window. Beware, the roomette windows were all of the wide variety! regards Andy Miller BTW the best reference I have found to date for PRR passenger class designations is the PRRT&HS publication on paint schemes for PRR passenger cars. In fact it is the only book I have which regularly identifies the cars by these designations! !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 29 Jul 97 08:45:05 UT Subject: RE: Union Station Products Content-Length: 1783 Damn!! I drooled all over my keyboard! Maybe it will wash out the coffee. Thanx for the coming products data. I already have his catalog and knew of the others. As I think I mentioned, my first two cars were curiously not PRR. I bought 14-4s for use on the Texas Special- Penn/Texas and the Southern's Crescent Ltd. Except for the 14-2, built for the ACL pool service, I already have the others. I had to scratch build the 21 rmts and the P85b's. I kitbashed the 12-4 from AHM (IHC) 12-5's. I even put an interior in one of them - my only 3 dimensional interior! The ACF-built twin unit diner and the postwar 4-4-2s are my only brass passenger cars. They are Lambert and were reasonbly priced (years ago). The COLONIAL lounges definatly have my interest along with the sleeper and coaches for the Florida trains. regards Andy >According to data I just received from the president of USP, they currently >offer the following PRR kits: > >#3091B ACF 14RMT-2DR SLEEPER, FLUTED. >#4069H 4DBR-4CMPT-2DR SLEEPER, SMOOTH SIDE. >#4130 12DUPLEX -4BR SLEEPER, SMOOTH SIDE. >#4140B 10RMT-6BR SLEEPER, FLUTED. >#4156 21RMT SLEEPER, FLUTED SIDE. >#4606 ACF FULL DINER-TWIN UNIT. SMOOTH SIDE. >#4607 KITCHEN-TWIN UNIT, SMOOTH SIDE. >#7593 54 SEAT COACH, FLUTED. > >They plan to add these shortly: > >#4078 PS Prewar 3BR-1DR Bar Lounge > #4068A PS Prewar 6BR Buffet Lounge >#4131 Postwar 6BR Buffet Lounge >#4132 PS 3BR-1DR Buffet Lounge >#4140 PS Postwar 10RMT-6BR Sleeper. > >Whet your appetite at all? >----------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton >"Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ >Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! >----------------------------------------------- > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 29 Jul 97 09:00:03 UT Subject: Re: Paint colors (was The Pennsy will live again! (sort of)) Content-Length: 540 All the talk of accurate paint colors just led me to a strange modelling idea. Has anyone ever considered modelling in BLACK and WHITE! This would end all arguments about how accurate a particular "box car red" was, and simultaneously produce the "period" look of railroading in the era of B&W photography! regards Andy Miller >I vote for black, sooty, oily, dirty and modeling >in gray scale black & white to match the old >photographs. OR using Floquil "grimy black" >under florescent lamps. > >Harry Fitch > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 29 Jul 97 09:21:48 UT Subject: RE: Union Station Products Content-Length: 1089 Since Andy posted his response to the list about available and forthcoming Union Station Products models, I will share with you all what I shared with him. My "on-the-side" business, Desktop Solutions, will be coming out with a Macintosh application to control DCC. This will be our first offering which links two of my hobbies -- computers and model railroading. Given further thought, I am actually developing a "department" for HO modelers through this business. I plan to sell Union Station products, as well as others that I can setup wholesale accounts with. I will be contacting Bethlehem Car Works, Eastern Car Works, Brass Car Sides, etc. Don't know if I'll meet volume requirements for Bowser, Spectrum, or P2K, but I'll look into them as well. I also have requests going out to numerous decal companies about making custom decals for decorating FoM equipment. Stay tuned. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 29 Jul 97 09:25:00 UT Subject: Re: Paint colors (was The Pennsy will live again! (sort of)) Content-Length: 406 > All the talk of accurate paint colors just led me to a strange modelling idea. > Has anyone ever considered modelling in BLACK and WHITE! This would end all > arguments about how accurate a particular "box car red" was, and simultaneously > produce the "period" look of railroading in the era of B&W photography! > Hey, that's not the right shade of tuscan gray for that car! -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 29 Jul 97 09:49:34 UT Subject: Re: Paint colors (was The Pennsy will live again! (sort of)) Content-Length: 420 From: shadow@dementia.org > Hey, that's not the right shade of tuscan gray for that car! Was that pearl white, eggshell white, designer white, .... I say, Tuscan Red or Brunswi....Dark Locomotive Enamel five-stripe forever! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 29 Jul 97 09:56:04 UT Subject: Re: 20th Century Pennsy Cabin Cars Content-Length: 601 In a message dated 97-07-29 07:24:34 EDT, you write: << Rich Orr thanked me for great information. Im waiting to learn if he actually recieved a legible copy or was being sarcastic. >> When I printed the e-mail it was in a readable format. A few numbers were not aligned properly but I could determinw what belonged where. I was not attempting to be sarcastic. I was referencing the actual information as opposed to the slightly skewed format. Having suffered the misalignment of e-mail with tabs, spaces etc. in my postings, I have come to expect some misalignment. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 29 Jul 97 10:01:34 UT Subject: Re: Paint colors (was The Pennsy will live again! (sort of)) Content-Length: 665 In a message dated 97-07-29 09:22:24 EDT, you write: << All the talk of accurate paint colors just led me to a strange modelling idea. Has anyone ever considered modelling in BLACK and WHITE! This would end all arguments about how accurate a particular "box car red" was, and simultaneously produce the "period" look of railroading in the era of B&W photography! r >> Andy, if you model the Pittsburgh & west Virginia in a late (post WWII) all steam venue you could do this. All freight cars were black with white lettering. Likewise the steam locos. I am not sure about the color of the cabins 'er cabeese or is it cabooses. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 29 Jul 97 10:16:26 UT Subject: Re: Paint colors (was The Pennsy will live again! (sort of)) Content-Length: 303 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com > I am not sure about the color of the > cabins 'er cabeese or is it cabooses. Cabii? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVPedro@aol.com Date: 29 Jul 97 10:40:10 UT Subject: Re: Track Pans Content-Length: 950 All or this talk regarding the lowering and raising of water scoops, mak= es me realize that the younger generation does not realize people in this country used to be able to do things. The younger generation with the Fed= eral government doing everything for them. How many people know that from the = day ground was broken for the Empire State Building, till the day the first tenant moved in was 14 months . Today you couldn=92t get a building permi= t that fast. If we still steam and track water pans, your would have all sorts o= f federal regulations on lowering and raising scoops, not to mention the restrictions which would be imposed on the amount of water you could use = per train. No there used to be a time in American when people could do things. When people could build things and teachers could teach. And the public didn't have to listen to some TV reporter to learn what to wear in a snow storm. Pete !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 29 Jul 97 10:45:25 UT Subject: Way off topic was(Re: Paint colors (was The Pennsy will live again! (sort of)) Content-Length: 460 In a message dated 97-07-29 10:28:34 EDT, you write: << > I am not sure about the color of the > cabins 'er cabeese or is it cabooses. Cabii? --------------------------------------------- >> This may be one of those unanswerable questions. If the plural of goose is geese, does it not follow that the plural of caboose is cabeese and the plural of moose is meese? Only in the English language can one find such inconsistency. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hosam@gc.net Date: 29 Jul 97 11:00:34 UT Subject: Re: Paint colors (was The Pennsy will live again! (sort of)) Content-Length: 333 At 09:25 AM 7/29/97 UT, you wrote: >> All the talk of accurate paint colors just led me to a strange modelling >idea. >> Has anyone ever considered modelling in BLACK and WHITE! > >Hey, that's not the right shade of tuscan gray for that car! > >-D Greetings, Will this settle the DGLE vs BG debate?????? HOSAM !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cupper@ibm.net Date: 29 Jul 97 11:06:41 UT Subject: Re: Crew Pay and leading/trailing trucks- Content-Length: 1206 Until forced > into "modern" steam, the PRR would not even look > at a booster on an engine or tender truck. > Exception ... At least one of the Baldwin built K4s engines used > on the Broadway Ltd. had a booster for a while. > (I think a delta truck was used) An even more obscure booster application, which I've never seen mentioned anywhere but in the trade publication "Railway Age," was that installed in July and August of 1927 on L1s 1306. The locomotive was temporarily turned into -- are you ready for this? -- a Berkshire with the addition of a Bethlehem Steel Co.-built four-wheel trailing truck having 36-inch-diameter wheels. Research was carried out on the Test Plant in Altoona with the idea that the booster could be applied to the *tenders* of L1s engines. The booster truck was placed under the locomotive firebox for these tests because the Test Plant stand was not long enough to hold an L1s engine *and* its tender. This mutant L1s apparently did not operate on the road, only on the Test Plant. So what do we call this, an L1sa ? Or, taking a cue from the PRR's electric world, L1s modified ? Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Psalm 84:5 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JEFF-LUBCHANSKY-CPA@worldnet.att.net Date: 29 Jul 97 11:16:02 UT Subject: unsubscribe Content-Length: 13 unsubscribe !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hosam@gc.net Date: 29 Jul 97 11:24:37 UT Subject: Returned mail Content-Length: 2081 Greetings, This is the fourth "returned Mail" I have gotten in the last two days. I received the message referred to in this post, did all receive it? What are these messages and who is )or some of the others referred to?????? Anyone, sorry to waste bandwidth. To: Subject: Returned mail: User unknown Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure) The original message was received at Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:16:06 -0400 (EDT) from cs6-03.pcn.ptd.net [204.186.21.83] ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- (expanded from: ) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... while talking to server3.voicenet.com.: >>> RCPT To: <<< 550 ... User unknown 550 ... User unknown Reporting-MTA: dns; mail1.voicenet.com Received-From-MTA: DNS; cs6-03.pcn.ptd.net Arrival-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:16:06 -0400 (EDT) Final-Recipient: RFC822; X-Actual-Recipient: RFC822; johns1@server3.voicenet.com Action: failed Status: 5.1.1 Remote-MTA: DNS; server3.voicenet.com Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 550 ... User unknown Last-Attempt-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:18:35 -0400 (EDT) Return-Path: Received: from [204.186.21.83] (cs6-03.pcn.ptd.net [204.186.21.83]) by mail1.voicenet.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA24172 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:16:06 -0400 (EDT) From: hosam@gc.net Message-Id: X-Mailer: RingTwice for the Macintosh X-Unsubinfo: To unsubscribe, mail "UNSUB PRR-Talk" to Date: 29 Jul 97 11:00:34 UT Reply-To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Originator: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Errors-To: postmaster@dsop.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk To: Members of group Subject: Re: Paint colors (was The Pennsy will live again! (sort of)) HOSAM !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cupper@ibm.net Date: 29 Jul 97 11:26:57 UT Subject: Re: Able to do things Content-Length: 1242 > All or this talk regarding the lowering and raising of water > scoops, makes me realize that the younger generation does not > realize people in this country used to be able to do things. > from the day ground was broken for the Empire State Building, till > the day the first tenant moved in was 14 months . Today you > couldn't get a building permit that fast. If we still steam and > track water pans, your would have all sorts of federal regulations > on lowering and raising scoops, not to mention the restrictions > which would be imposed on the amount of water you could use per > train. > > Reminds me that the Pennsylvania Turnpike, constructed partially > on the roadbed of the never-completed South Pennsylvania RR, was > built in less than 2 years. (Ground broken Oct. 27, 1938, roadway > opened Oct. 1, 1940 but substantially finished well before that; > its opening was delayed for political reasons). 160 miles of > four-lane superhighway through the Alleghenies, with seven > tunnels. The engineers were literally laying out the alignment and > designing the roadway in relay -team shifts around the clock and > just ahead of the excavation crews. Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Psalms 84:5 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: robs@protocol.zycad.com Date: 29 Jul 97 11:31:29 UT Subject: Re: Union Station Products Content-Length: 888 Jerry, A friend of mine runs a small decal company. You might want to contact him about any custom decals you might want. Minimum run is 25 sets I think (probably less if it's a set that could be sold to others.. like anything PRR.) You can e-mail him: paultup@interactive.net (Sorry about the plug...) I've been bugging him to do PRR scale test car decals but need a few more good photos (or clear scanned images) Also does anyone have a roster of PRR scale test cars? Send it to me or post it to the list! Thanks Rob Jerry said.... I also have requests going out to numerous decal companies about making custom decals for decorating FoM equipment. Stay tuned. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 29 Jul 97 12:04:42 UT Subject: RE: Way off topic was(Re: Paint colors (was The Pennsy will live again! (sort of)) Content-Length: 551 My preference has always been "cabooseem" regards Andy Miller >In a message dated 97-07-29 10:28:34 EDT, you write: > ><< > > I am not sure about the color of the > > cabins 'er cabeese or is it cabooses. > > Cabii? > --------------------------------------------- >> >This may be one of those unanswerable questions. If the plural of goose is >geese, does it not follow that the plural of caboose is cabeese and the >plural of moose is meese? Only in the English language can one find such >inconsistency. > >Rich Orr > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 29 Jul 97 12:18:26 UT Subject: Server Changes (Was: Returned mail) Content-Length: 2951 From: hosam@gc.net > This is the fourth "returned Mail" I have gotten in the last two days. As the list gets larger, the probability of a user discontinuing their e-mail account with a particular service, or having a full mailbox, etc., increases. I will look into this particular address tonight, when I work on the server. However, now appears to be a good time to share with you my future plans for the server: First, last night I updated the OS to bring it up to the level required (MacOS 7.6.1) for one of the applications below. The install, which might have taken only a half hour or so, detected some minor flaws in the directory structure (can't have that!). I opted to "do it right" and did a completely fresh system install. The whole process took nearly three hours. The mail server, by the way, is now running significantly faster. Second, I will be installing AppleShare IP 5.0, which is a file server, web server, FTP server, and mail server. Initially, I will be using it for intranet file serving and FTP serving. Not only will it allow robust FTP access, it will allow users to "mount" drives remotely (if I let them). It will enable me to discontinue use of the NetPresenz server which has been in use for the past two months. (It has been off since last night but will likely be reactivated tonight.) Third, I will convert my mail serving to AppleShare IP 5.0 and, at the same time, convert my list serving over to a new program, LetterRip. This will allow me to discontinue of my current mail/list server, RingTwice. RT is nice, but I have been using a working beta all along. With the volume I am now working with, its age is showing. Development of the product has all but stopped, so it's not viable over the long run. When the time comes, I will take the list down -- probably over a weekend -- and manually convert the subscriber list so that nobody needs to resubscribe. The posting addresses will remain the same, though the command address may change. I will let everyone know. The good news is that this new ListServ offers some nice features that I cannot currently address: 1) Posts will now offer the ability to "Reply to the Sender" vs. "Reply to the List", if your e-mail client supports both. 2) Posts and digests will offer editable headers and footers -- allowing me to relay important and timely information. 3) Posts will continue to be archived to disk, but with easier to decipher filenames (listname.date.post#). 4) The listserv is smart enough to not post to the list commands for the listserv, errors (like the one mentioned), etc. All this should happen within the next 2-3 weeks. When possible, I will alert the list when I plan extended down times. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rond@efn.org Date: 29 Jul 97 12:34:28 UT Subject: RE: Union Station Products Content-Length: 1210 On 29 Jul 1997 britton@pit-magnus.com wrote: ... > I also have requests going out to numerous decal companies about making > custom decals for decorating FoM equipment. Stay tuned. > --------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Hi Jerry and all, You got me to thinking so I pulled out my Oriental Limited 1938 Broadway Limited set (N-Scale and not decaled yet) to see if the decal sheets had a source on them. They did! The sheet says: "Custom Accu-cals produced exclusively for Pennsy Retail Research by SMP Industries- copyright 1984 Pennsy Retail Research." The set came with six sheets, one for each car, and include the stripes and window colors, as well as lots of numbers, about 120 car names and misc. REA decals per sheet. Also Pennsy and Pullman lettering. If anyone wants a more complete description e-mail me and I'll send it to you unless I get too many requests in which case I'll post it to the list. I don't have an address for this SMP industries or Pennsy Retail Research. Anybody ever heard of either one? I also don't know if they do HO or are N-Scale only. Hope this helps. Keep on Trackin' Ron. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: harmanta@monroe.army.mil Date: 29 Jul 97 13:02:07 UT Subject: RE: Way off topic (Was: Paint colors) Content-Length: 1363 we're not even close. cabooseem, indeed. and from a goyem yet. > ---------- > From: britton@pit-magnus.com[SMTP:britton@pit-magnus.com] > Reply To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 8:22 AM > To: Members of group > Subject: Re: Way off topic (Was: Paint colors) > > > From: SUVCWORR@aol.com > >> > I am not sure about the color of the > > > > cabins 'er cabeese or is it cabooses. > > > > > >Cabii? > > > >This may be one of those unanswerable questions. If the plural of > goose > is > >geese, does it not follow that the plural of caboose is cabeese and > the > >plural of moose is meese? Only in the English language can one find > such > >inconsistency. > > Would then, several cabeese in a yard be called a "gaggle" and a train > underway transporting several cabeese be called a "flock"? > > (If anyone is "offended" by the occassional humor threads on this > list, let > me know. As listmaster, I let it go -- and even contribute, at least > for > now. However, the list is growing and we will reach a point that we > will > need to remain focused. Let me know when we get there!) > --------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > Progressive Information Technologies > britton@pit-magnus.com > http://www.pit-magnus.com > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: robs@protocol.zycad.com Date: 29 Jul 97 13:21:30 UT Subject: Re: Union Station Products Content-Length: 1893 Hi I'm pretty sure that these decals are no longer available.. They were put out by Hugh Debberthine (Think I mangled the spelling of his name...) who I think was also involved with Oriental Ltd. I have a set or two of them in HO. They have the gold striping and also the darker colored window band which you apply over the window opeining and then cut out and fold under the middle... Probably would be a pain on laser cut plexiglass car sides! At a previous PRR convention the Middle Division had decals for just the gold striping for the FOM scheme. It was a huge 8x11 decal sheet that did 2 cars. Unfortunately I think they were made for some brass importer and aren't part of their regular line. They were just selling off the overrun. If enough people bug 'em maybe they'll do them again. The Middle Division guys commented about how the Pennsy Retail Reseach set's striping wasn't done very well. Rob Original Message.... Hi Jerry and all, You got me to thinking so I pulled out my Oriental Limited 1938 Broadway Limited set (N-Scale and not decaled yet) to see if the decal sheets had a source on them. They did! The sheet says: "Custom Accu-cals produced exclusively for Pennsy Retail Research by SMP Industries- copyright 1984 Pennsy Retail Research." The set came with six sheets, one for each car, and include the stripes and window colors, as well as lots of numbers, about 120 car names and misc. REA decals per sheet. Also Pennsy and Pullman lettering. If anyone wants a more complete description e-mail me and I'll send it to you unless I get too many requests in which case I'll post it to the list. I don't have an address for this SMP industries or Pennsy Retail Research. Anybody ever heard of either one? I also don't know if they do HO or are N-Scale only. Hope this helps. Keep on Trackin' Ron. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BEMIDJIAN@aol.com Date: 29 Jul 97 13:22:27 UT Subject: Re: Paint colors (was The Pennsy will live again! (sort of)) Content-Length: 173 For what its worth, PWV cabooses were the the basic barn red that a lot of intermediate sized roads used. But in some of my PWV pictures they are kind of gray. Dave !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 29 Jul 97 13:33:49 UT Subject: Re: FoM Decals Content-Length: 761 The FoM decals I am looking to have made, I must give credit to Andy Miller for the concept. The proposed is a full-length one piece decal that would include the numerous gold stripes and the dark window band. There would be two versions to handle the two applicable car lengths needed. After applying the decal, you'd have to cut the windows. If the decal companies provide "acceptable" pricing and color matching, I will work on the design. Each set would have four decals (two cars) plus numerous prototype car names, numbers, et al. I'll keep you posted. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: robs@protocol.zycad.com Date: 29 Jul 97 13:53:58 UT Subject: Re: FoM Decals Content-Length: 943 Jerry, That's excactly what the Pennsy Retail Research decals had. I think they only had one length though... I could probably scan a set and mail it to you.... Rob The FoM decals I am looking to have made, I must give credit to Andy Miller for the concept. The proposed is a full-length one piece decal that would include the numerous gold stripes and the dark window band. There would be two versions to handle the two applicable car lengths needed. After applying the decal, you'd have to cut the windows. If the decal companies provide "acceptable" pricing and color matching, I will work on the design. Each set would have four decals (two cars) plus numerous prototype car names, numbers, et al. I'll keep you posted. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 29 Jul 97 14:09:38 UT Subject: Re: FoM Decals Content-Length: 1151 From: robs@protocol.zycad.com > That's excactly what the Pennsy Retail Research decals had. I think they only had one length though... > I could probably scan a set and mail it to you.... The scan might be helpful from a standpoint of "the decal should include...", but would likely not be helpful in designing a new decal. First, the color on the background will make it hard to get a good line art scan. Second, the resolution would have to be extremely high. A scan would create a bitmap image. For superior quality, I will create a vector (PostScript) image from scratch using Adobe Illustrator. I can use plans in the PRRT&HS "painting and lettering" book as a guide. When I feel I have an accurate rendition, I will create film positives (read that as "transparency") and send to a few passenger-minded people (Andy Miller, for one) for their comments. Sounds like there's more interest on the list than I had expected. Hmmmm. 8-) --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org Date: 29 Jul 97 14:20:47 UT Subject: Re: Able to do things Content-Length: 680 > > Reminds me that the Pennsylvania Turnpike, constructed partially > > on the roadbed of the never-completed South Pennsylvania RR, was > > built in less than 2 years. (Ground broken Oct. 27, 1938, roadway > > opened Oct. 1, 1940 but substantially finished well before that; > > its opening was delayed for political reasons). 160 miles of > > four-lane superhighway through the Alleghenies, with seven > > tunnels. The engineers were literally laying out the alignment and > > designing the roadway in relay -team shifts around the clock and > > just ahead of the excavation crews. Dare we say it shows? :-) (Actually, I love traveling that road.) -- Mark !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: sbartlet@capecod.net Date: 29 Jul 97 14:37:04 UT Subject: Re: Union Station Products Content-Length: 333 SMP Industries would be Scale Model Products - makers of Accu-cals and Accu-Paint. The owner is George Bishop. He doesn't seem to be advertising recently -- I found a Model Railroader Magazine review of May, 1975, giving the address as P.O. Box 72, Bolton, MA 01740. As far as I know, he's still there. Steve Bartlett !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 29 Jul 97 14:37:43 UT Subject: TAN: Pa. Turnpike Content-Length: 1554 > Reminds me that the Pennsylvania Turnpike, constructed partially > on the roadbed of the never-completed South Pennsylvania RR I remember when I was young(er), in the 1960s, my father was "concrete boss" for Pennsy Supply (Harrisburg, Pa.). Pennsy supplied the concrete when the Turnpike was adding the second set of "tubes" at the twin tunnels of Blue and Kittatiny Mountains. While most of the highway was four lane, for the longest time it narrowed to two lanes for the tunnels. One by one, the Turnpike added second tubes. I remember visiting the job site one weekend. I was amazed at how the tunnels were created and how the ceiling you see when passing through the tunnel is merely a facade. The tube is actually an arch shape. A form is slid into the bore and concrete is forced into the outside of it. This creates a "shell". The inner walls and ceiling are then created within the arch form. I remember my father having b/w photos of this construction, but they are long gone. Gradually many of the tunnels were replaced by long steady grades, like that at Sideling Hill and the area by Donegal. There's a guy whose appeared in several issues of MR that modeled Conrail as if the South Penn had been completed. He did a great job. Unfortunately, the last article stated that he was moving and the layout was coming down. 8-( --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: postmaster@dsop.com Date: 29 Jul 97 14:47:14 UT Subject: undeliverable mail Content-Length: 363 Message-Id: X-Mailer: RingTwice for the Macintosh Date: 29 Jul 97 14:47:14 UT From: postmaster@dsop.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: undeliverable mail Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Your message to: was not sent. Syntax Error. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 29 Jul 97 14:57:15 UT Subject: Re: Returned mail Content-Length: 135 Yes, I also have received them. It would appear that mail returned to the list server is being rebroadcast to the list. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 29 Jul 97 15:03:32 UT Subject: Re: Union Station Products Content-Length: 336 In a message dated 97-07-29 13:08:45 EDT, you write: << Pennsy Retail Research. >> If I recall correctly this is Hugh Heberthine (I won't swear to the spelling). He also publishes or did publish the Pennsy Pack Rat. A sort of postal swap meet. I don;t have a current address. Can anyone help with Hugh's address? Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: dennis@bbn.com Date: 29 Jul 97 15:12:07 UT Subject: Re: Union Station Products Content-Length: 541 On 29 Jul, sbartlet@capecod.net wrote: > SMP Industries would be Scale Model Products - makers of Accu-cals and > Accu-Paint. The owner is George Bishop. He doesn't seem to be > advertising recently -- I found a Model Railroader Magazine review of > May, 1975, giving the address as P.O. Box 72, Bolton, MA 01740. As far > as I know, he's still there. I can't vouch for the exact address, but SMP is still in business, still run by George, in the same building with the Nashua Valley club, in Bolton. Good luck! Dennis !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 29 Jul 97 15:14:26 UT Subject: Re: FoM Decals Content-Length: 546 For color match, there are color chips in the back of the PRRT&HS Pasenger car plan book by Chuck Blardone and ?? Tulip. Sorry, I don't have the exact title. Rich Orr PS. I have several of Hugh's decals in HO. Jerry, I would be willing to donate one of these to the project if it means we have good quality decals available. Sacrrificing one set fto make them avaialbe is a fair trade off as far as I am concerned. Hugh may be willing to give access to the artwork for the originals and permission to use copyrighted material. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 29 Jul 97 15:45:15 UT Subject: Re: TAN: Pa. Turnpike Content-Length: 368 In a message dated 97-07-29 15:19:12 EDT, you write: << There's a guy whose appeared in several issues of MR that modeled Conrail as if the South Penn had been completed. He did a great job. Unfortunately, the last article stated that he was moving and the layout was coming down. 8-( - >> Neal Schorr is the person who models the South Penn. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org Date: 29 Jul 97 15:56:26 UT Subject: Re: TAN: Pa. Turnpike Content-Length: 646 > Gradually many of the tunnels were replaced by long steady grades, like that > at Sideling Hill and the area by Donegal. The 3-lane uphill, median-equipped sections of the turnpike are the new sections, but they were put in as part of the same project that doubled the tubes thru the mountains. Sideling Hill bypassed the Sideling Hill and Ray's Hill Tunnels. The section at Donegal is merely triple-laned now but is still the original grade. East of there, though, is the Laurel Hill bypass, which skirts the Laurel Hill Tunnel. Allegheny Tunnel is in bad shape and will probably be daylighted or bypassed "soon". -- Mark !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: sbartlet@capecod.net Date: 29 Jul 97 15:59:34 UT Subject: Re: Union Station Products Content-Length: 218 SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > > Can anyone help with Hugh's address? > > Rich Orr >From his ad in The Keystone, Hugh Debberthine Tel: 818-966-3007 16703 Groverdale Covina, CA 91722 Steve Bartlett !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: 29 Jul 97 16:06:08 UT Subject: Re: Track Pans Content-Length: 507 Believe there was a feature on track pans in an old Keystone - will check tonight. It would be a great feature to model on a Club or large layout - In addition to the pans themselves a boiler house - pump house and water treatment and storage facilities would be required REMEMBER in our northern climes the water had to be heated to prevent frezing in winter - also the right of way along the pans was paved with stone blocks to prevent excess water from washing away ballast Dick Ross !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: dennis@bbn.com Date: 29 Jul 97 17:17:18 UT Subject: Re: Paint colors (was The Pennsy will live again! (sort of)) Content-Length: 612 On 29 Jul, asmiller@mail11.mitre.org wrote: > All the talk of accurate paint colors just led me to a strange modelling idea. > Has anyone ever considered modelling in BLACK and WHITE! [ ... ] Let me guess: you've just seen "City of Angels", right? For those who don't see Broadway musicals, CoA is a show concerning a mystery writer doing his first screenplay, and the movie is shot in B&W. The movie scenes (on the stage, remember) are all in B&W, right down to gray facepaint on the actors, and are done in split stage, including multipart numbers sung by characters on both sides. Dennis !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: dennis@bbn.com Date: 29 Jul 97 17:21:38 UT Subject: GG1 (was Re: Crew Pay) Content-Length: 796 On 27 Jul, wa4bpw@shelby.net wrote: > Also the GG1 were > taken out of service long before their time and with a little up grading > would be running today. with very few break downs. Unfortunately, this is not the case. The Gs were starting to suffer from metal fatigue in the frames, and would not have lasted much longer in active use. I won't even go into the outdated electricals. As much as I'd like to see them still blazing along, I don't think they'd still be in active service. *sigh* But if they were, they'd be in Boston next year!!! Dennis Rockwell dennis@bbn.com _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zeolla@erols.com Date: 29 Jul 97 17:43:40 UT Subject: Re: TAN: Pa. Turnpike Content-Length: 135 > Allegheny Tunnel is in bad shape and will probably be daylighted or > bypassed "soon". May I ask what you mean by "daylighted"? !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 29 Jul 97 18:03:38 UT Subject: Re: Able to do things Content-Length: 1711 Opinion: If Noah would have had to form a Build the Ark Committee, he would have been drowned in the great flood. (He would have had to submit an environmental impact study for the flood as well) Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ---------- > From: cupper@ibm.net > To: Members of group > Subject: Re: Able to do things > Date: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 7:26 AM > > > All or this talk regarding the lowering and raising of water > > scoops, makes me realize that the younger generation does not > > realize people in this country used to be able to do things. > > from the day ground was broken for the Empire State Building, till > > the day the first tenant moved in was 14 months . Today you > > couldn't get a building permit that fast. If we still steam and > > track water pans, your would have all sorts of federal regulations > > on lowering and raising scoops, not to mention the restrictions > > which would be imposed on the amount of water you could use per > > train. > > > > Reminds me that the Pennsylvania Turnpike, constructed partially > > on the roadbed of the never-completed South Pennsylvania RR, was > > built in less than 2 years. (Ground broken Oct. 27, 1938, roadway > > opened Oct. 1, 1940 but substantially finished well before that; > > its opening was delayed for political reasons). 160 miles of > > four-lane superhighway through the Alleghenies, with seven > > tunnels. The engineers were literally laying out the alignment and > > designing the roadway in relay -team shifts around the clock and > > just ahead of the excavation crews. > > > > Dan Cupper > cupper@ibm.net > Psalms 84:5 > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: sbartlet@capecod.net Date: 29 Jul 97 18:43:52 UT Subject: Re: Able to do things Content-Length: 776 hfitch@maranatha.net wrote: > > Opinion: > > If Noah would have had to form a Build the Ark Committee, > he would have been drowned in the great flood. > > (He would have had to submit an environmental impact study > for the flood as well) > > Harry Fitch > hfitch@maranatha.net > Acts 4:12 > Subject: Re: TAN: Pa. Turnpike Date: 29 Jul 97 17:43:40 UT From: zeolla@erols.com Reply-To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com To: Members of group > Allegheny Tunnel is in bad shape and will probably be daylighted or > bypassed "soon". May I ask what you mean by "daylighted"? ----------- Considering the above two threads together, may I ask what you mean by "soon?" !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 29 Jul 97 20:51:05 UT Subject: Re: TAN: Pa. Turnpike Content-Length: 699 From: zeolla@erols.com > > Allegheny Tunnel is in bad shape and will probably be daylighted or > > bypassed "soon". > > May I ask what you mean by "daylighted"? That's when they blow the top of the mountain off so the existing road is open to the sky, instead of in a tunnel. Conrail did this "accidentally" when increasing the clearances of their tunnels for double-stacking. A dangerous but somewhat humorous occurance. Hmmmm. Anyone for "Turnpike-Talk"? Nih! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: crts@postoffice.worldnet.att.net Date: 29 Jul 97 21:15:53 UT Subject: Unsubscribe Content-Length: 15 Unsubscribe !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 29 Jul 97 21:29:02 UT From: cobrandt@eclipse.net Subject: Re: Way off topic was(Re: Paint colors (was The Pennsy will live again! (sort of)) Content-Length: 1014 SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 97-07-29 10:28:34 EDT, you write: > > << > > I am not sure about the color of the > > cabins 'er cabeese or is it cabooses. > > Cabii? > --------------------------------------------- >> > This may be one of those unanswerable questions. If the plural of goose is > geese, does it not follow that the plural of caboose is cabeese and the > plural of moose is meese? Only in the English language can one find such > inconsistency. > > Rich Orr Interesting discussion of meese now taking place in newsgroup alt.fan.plumbing I am convinced that there is no plural for "caboose". Much like "deer" or "antelope". (eg. "I saw many caboose at Enola back in '55") Oh, well, just a thought. -Chris -- _______ __\ /__ ----------\ P /---------- -----------\ R R /----------- ------------\ /------------ \___/ Chris Brandt cobrandt@eclipse.net http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: 29 Jul 97 22:10:03 UT Subject: Re: Way off topic was(Re: Paint colors (was The Pennsy will live again! (sort... Content-Length: 231 In a message dated 97-07-29 11:02:40 EDT, you write: > the plural of caboose is cabeese Yo,guys!! Why are we even using these words on this list? The correct singular is "Cabin Car". The correct plural is "Cabin Cars". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 29 Jul 97 22:39:42 UT Subject: Re: Way off topic was(Re: Paint colors (was The Pennsy will live again! (sort... Content-Length: 483 Git-um PRRMAN! ---------- > From: PRRMAN@aol.com > To: Members of group > Subject: Re: Way off topic was(Re: Paint colors (was The Pennsy will live again! (sort... > Date: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 6:10 PM > > In a message dated 97-07-29 11:02:40 EDT, you write: > > > the plural of caboose is cabeese > > Yo,guys!! Why are we even using these words on this list? > The correct singular is "Cabin Car". The correct plural is > "Cabin Cars". > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RLMower@aol.com Date: 29 Jul 97 23:15:25 UT Subject: Re: TAN: Pa. Turnpike Content-Length: 1634 In a message dated 97-07-29 15:19:03 EDT, you write: << Reminds me that the Pennsylvania Turnpike, constructed partially > on the roadbed of the never-completed South Pennsylvania RR I remember when I was young(er), in the 1960s, my father was "concrete boss" for Pennsy Supply (Harrisburg, Pa.). Pennsy supplied the concrete when the Turnpike was adding the second set of "tubes" at the twin tunnels of Blue and Kittatiny Mountains. >> I too remember the construction of the second tube. My family has owned part of Blue Mountain for years and the RR later the turnpike obtained the right of way thru our ground. The tunnels are literally under our property. I can remember when I was little we hiked to the top of the mountain and looked down between Blue Mountan and Kittaning at the construction of the second bore. I remember my grandfather telling me how his friends and him would hike up to the unfinished rr tunnel and shoot rifles into the bore. My grandfather also told me that his grandfather (my great, great grandfather) was a buther and he would sell meat to the workers digging the tunnel. My great grandfather who was a young boy would drive a wagon up to the construction site and a foreman who spoke english handled the transactions for him. There are still some piles of stones outlining the foundations where the workers had built houses during the digging. It was told to me by my grandfather that they dug the tunnel from both ends at once and they were so close that the workers could actually hear each other when the RR was abruptly abandoned. Randy !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cen19679@mail.pc.centuryinter.net Date: 30 Jul 97 00:00:44 UT Subject: Re: The Pennsy will live again! (sort of) Content-Length: 336 > > NEW LOGO FOR NS > > Throughbred inside a Keystone. > > Rich Orr NS shouldn't have to change their logo. They are acquiring the PRR, not merging with it. But maybe they should put a small PRR under the cab number, for the appropiate locomotives. Brian (father's list, so please don't get mad at him) !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jonathan@RES2.RESNET.UPENN.EDU Date: 30 Jul 97 17:21:20 UT Subject: Re: Pennsylvania Station-Baltimore Content-Length: 851 > > Gentlmen to assist in your search on data about the Pennsylvania > > Station-Baltimore the PRRT&HS "KEYSTONE" Spring 1995 issue has a first > > rate article. I'm new to this list. Could someon please tell me what the PRRT&HS is? If it's a magazine devoted to PRR buffs could someone please send me the mailing address or phone number to subscribe? Thanks! _____________________________________________________________________________ Jonathan S. Goldstein jonathan@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~jonathan/home.html Any opinions offered herein shall not be considered a substitute for paid professional advice. _____________________________________________________________________________ Learn to shoot. The life you save may be your own. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org Date: 30 Jul 97 17:25:31 UT Subject: Re: TAN: Pa. Turnpike Content-Length: 278 > > Allegheny Tunnel is in bad shape and will probably be daylighted or > > bypassed "soon". > > May I ask what you mean by "daylighted"? Made such that daylight provides the lighting, instead of fluorescent tubes. I.e., have the top blown off it. :-) -- Mark !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cupper@ibm.net Date: 30 Jul 97 17:40:53 UT Subject: Re: Pa. Turnpike & South Pennsylvania RR Content-Length: 1687 It was told to me > by my grandfather that they dug the tunnel from both ends at once > and they were so close that the workers could actually hear each > other when the RR was abruptly abandoned. > > Randy > This is correct. The civil engineers who were hired to lay out the alignment for the South Pennsylvania RR considered this incident > to be one of the crowning disgraces of the entire episode, inasmuch as they had given the best efforts of their profession to lay out a railroad through very difficult terrain. When the order to stop work came, they felt as if they had been prostituted by Big Money -- used as a mere tool in a capitalist war against the Pennsy and discarded when the need for their services disappeared, regardless of the fact that the line was never completed. All of which was true, of course. But the amazing thing is that transcripts of a publication the civil engineers put out for themselves, called the "South Penn Transit," have survived, and in it they repeat the belief that they had, by following the ridge line between the Potomac and Susquehanna watersheds, avoided large bridges and found the best trans-Allegheny alignment possible between the Ohio River and the Atlantic Ocean. When the Turnpike was built in the late 1930s, it similarly had a publication for workers -- but it was for all employees, not just civil engineers, and it proudly listed the names of those who had worked on *both* projects, or maybe we should say the same project two times. Those veterans who had worked on the original railroad were called "South Penners." Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Psalm 84:5 were called !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: harmanta@monroe.army.mil Date: 30 Jul 97 17:50:59 UT Subject: RE: TAN: Pa. Turnpike Content-Length: 559 > ---------- > From: zeolla@erols.com[SMTP:zeolla@erols.com] > Reply To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 1:43 PM > To: Members of group > Subject: Re: TAN: Pa. Turnpike > > > Allegheny Tunnel is in bad shape and will probably be daylighted or > > bypassed "soon". > > May I ask what you mean by "daylighted"? _______________ It's gotta mean painting it orange and red with silver stripes, and lettering it "Southern Pacific", then applying a skyline casing over the top of the mountain. Makes perfect sense to me. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: harmanta@monroe.army.mil Date: 30 Jul 97 17:51:55 UT Subject: RE: Way off topic was(Re: Paint colors (was The Pennsy will live Content-Length: 676 > ---------- > From: PRRMAN@aol.com[SMTP:PRRMAN@aol.com] > Reply To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 6:10 PM > To: Members of group > Subject: Re: Way off topic was(Re: Paint colors (was The Pennsy > will live again! (sort... > > In a message dated 97-07-29 11:02:40 EDT, you write: > > > the plural of caboose is cabeese > > Yo,guys!! Why are we even using these words on this list? > The correct singular is "Cabin Car". The correct plural is > "Cabin Cars". _______________ Or. to be politically corrent (can't bring myself to use the acronym "PC" on the Pennsy list), we should refer to more than one as "cars of cabin". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cupper@ibm.net Date: 30 Jul 97 17:54:31 UT Subject: PRR 2-8-4 (repost as reply to Crew Pay thread)) Content-Length: 1569 Greetings, tuscan-hearted members of the list: I sent this message to the list yesterday but it didn't show up in my in-basket as a subscriber, so it may not have made it to some or all members. Therefore, I'm reposting it, so beg your pardon if it's a repeat for you. Dan Cupper > Until forced > > into "modern" steam, the PRR would not even look > > at a booster on an engine or tender truck. > > > Exception ... At least one of the Baldwin built K4s engines used > > on the Broadway Ltd. had a booster for a while. (I think a delta > > truck was used) > > > An even more obscure booster application, which I've never seen > mentioned anywhere but in the trade publication "Railway Age," was > that installed in July and August of 1927 on L1s 1306. The > locomotive was temporarily turned into -- are you ready for this? -- > a Berkshire with the addition of a Bethlehem Steel Co.-built > four-wheel trailing truck having 36-inch-diameter wheels. Research > was carried out on the Test Plant in Altoona with the idea that the > booster could be applied to the *tenders* of L1s engines. > > The booster truck was placed under the locomotive firebox for these > tests because the Test Plant stand was not long enough to hold an > L1s engine *and* its tender. This mutant L1s apparently did not > operate on the road, only on the Test Plant. > > So what do we call this, an L1sa ? Or, taking a cue from the > PRR's electric world, L1s modified ? > > Dan Cupper > cupper@ibm.net > Psalm 84:5 > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: drm6@psu.edu Date: 30 Jul 97 17:59:15 UT Subject: Re: BROADWAY LTD Mid-Train Lounge Content-Length: 1658 Greetings to Jerry and the group, Using Rosenbaum and Gallo's _The Broadway Limited_, Randall and Ross's _The Official Pullman-Standard Library Volume 4 PRR_ and Wayner's _PRR Passenger and Freight Car Diagrams_ as references provided the following information concerning the Broadway's Harbor series of cars. There were four cars in the Harbor series. Harbor Point (#8118) and Harbor Springs (#8119) were part of the original "Fleet of Modernism" cars for the Broadway. The were used in the Broadway from 1938 until 1946. Harbor Rest (#8429) and Harbor Cove (#8428) replaced them in Broadway service in 1946. Harbor Springs and Harbor Point are listed as PS5L with a 4077-A floorplan. Although similar, Harbor Rest and Harbor Point were not identical to the earlier Harbor cars. Harbor Rest and Harbor Point are listed as PS5LA with a 4141 floorplan. Hope this was helpful. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 08:16 AM 7/28/97 UT, you wrote: > >I posted to my passenger classes page the profile for the Mid-Train Lounge >on the Broadway Limited. The car featured two double bedrooms, a secretary's >room, a barber shop, show bath, and bar-lounge. ("Harbor" series.) > >There were only two cars of this type; both on the Bway Ltd. What was their >class designation? Unless I hear otherwise, I am showing them as "PS2L". > >Besides the aforementioned PS2L, I have also posted the page for PS18 ("City >of" series; 18 roomettes.) >--------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator >Progressive Information Technologies >britton@pit-magnus.com >http://www.pit-magnus.com > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: relliott@mail.telis.org Date: 30 Jul 97 18:00:21 UT Subject: Re: FoM Decals Content-Length: 879 britton wrote: > The FoM decals I am looking to have made, I must give credit to Andy Miller for the concept. > > The proposed is a full-length one piece decal that would include the > numerous gold stripes and the dark window band. There would be two versions > to handle the two applicable car lengths needed. After applying the decal, > you'd have to cut the windows. > > If the decal companies provide "acceptable" pricing and color matching, I > will work on the design. Each set would have four decals (two cars) plus > numerous prototype car names, numbers, et al. > > I'll keep you posted. > --------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Hi Jerry, I'm interested in the FoM decals too. But would there be the possibility of making them for N-scale? I might consider an HO set, too. Roger Elliott !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: dennis@bbn.com Date: 30 Jul 97 18:17:08 UT Subject: Re: Pennsylvania Station-Baltimore Content-Length: 700 On 30 Jul, jonathan@res2.resnet.upenn.edu wrote: > I'm new to this list. Could someon please tell me what the PRRT&HS is? > If it's a magazine devoted to PRR buffs could someone please send me the > mailing address or phone number to subscribe? The Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society, the Pennsy railfan club. See http://www.rrhistorical.com/prths for more information. Many of the subscribers on this list are members. Welcome! Dennis Rockwell dennis@bbn.com _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 30 Jul 97 22:07:35 UT Subject: Re: The Pennsy will live again! (sort of) Content-Length: 1364 In a message dated 97-07-28 13:24:49 EDT, you write: << Just a few months ago this list was full of messages about the Pennsy's founders and past presidents "rolling in the grave" over the issue of NS running the ex-PRR main...especially at Horseshoe Curve. Now you're practically celebrating it! >> Jerry, To those of us out here in Panhandleland, a alliance with with the Norfolk Southern means that history has come full circle. For most of this century, the Pennsylvania Railroad Co. owned at least a controlling interest in the Norlfolk & Western. Because of the close relationship, motive power and rolling stock was often swapped or bought in common. From a modeling standpoint, understanding this relationship is important. Cars from such allied roads as the N&W, DT&I, Wabash, Leghigh Valley, B&M or SAL, all roads in which the PRR Co. or one of its wholly-owned holding companies (i.e. The Pennsylvania Co. or the Pennroad Corp.) owned a major, if not controllin or majority, interest were more likely to be found on throgh freights than cars from eastern competitors such as the New York Central and its subsidiaries. For 33 years the Norfolk & Westetrn or Norfolk Southern of the most active ex-Pennsy lines in Ohio -- the Sandusky branch from Columbus north to the Lake Erie coal docks on Sandusky Bay. Tom V. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bnsftulsa@aol.com Date: 31 Jul 97 03:52:32 UT Subject: PRR-MofW Car #'s Content-Length: 128 Has anyone ever seen a list of PRR psgr cars converted to work train service? Dick Brundage Tulsa OK bnsftulsa@aol.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rond@efn.org Date: 31 Jul 97 04:23:05 UT Subject: Re: FoM Decals Content-Length: 351 Hi Jerry, I'll second the motion for FoM decals in N-Scale, if possible. I'd buy several sets immediately, at least 12 cars worth, and definately more later. If there is a minimum number of sets that must be printed let me know and I'll spread the word among the N-Scalers to see if there are enough of us to cover it. Hopefully, Ron. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 31 Jul 97 09:02:37 UT Subject: Re: BROADWAY LTD Mid-Train Lounge Content-Length: 972 Drew R. McGhee said (in part): . . . >Harbor Springs and Harbor Point are listed as PS5L with a 4077-A floorplan. >Although similar, Harbor Rest and Harbor Point were not identical to the >earlier Harbor cars. Harbor Rest and Harbor Point are listed as PS5LA with a >4141 floorplan. > - ------- The PS5L(a) designation would have been applied only after the coars were converted to 5 br lounge cars. This occurred in the late 50s as I recall. The barber shop/train phione/secretary cfacilities were replaced with 3 brs. As built the cars had only 2 bedrooms and therefore would have been classes PS2L and PS2La. Drew are you sure the PS5L was the prewar car and the PS5La was the post war car? If this is true, it is contrary to the pattern in almost all of the other sleepers which had like configurations in both the 38 and 48 equipment. Perhaps it is because they were the product of later year rebuildings. regards Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 31 Jul 97 09:17:59 UT Subject: RE: (lurching off subject) Re: Track Pans Content-Length: 820 Tom, Unfortunatly the newspaper articles today decry the fact that so many HS students can't find the United States on a map! That said, I fondly recall an incident about 10 years ago when some TV news item we were watching prompted the 9 year old daughter of my host to inquire "whats polio?". Almost cried to realize that a child can now grow up and never even hear of the disease that caused terror among among all my freinds and our parents when I was growing up. :))) Of course the other thin that bring a different kind of tear to my eye are the fotos of the ruble of Charles McKim's masterpiece lying half buried in the swamps of the Jersey Meadows. Sic transit gloria mundae - but why do we always do it to ourselves? Now Penn Station is just sick transit! regards Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 31 Jul 97 09:53:31 UT Subject: Re: BROADWAY LTD Mid-Train Lounge Content-Length: 1330 From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org > >Harbor Springs and Harbor Point are listed as PS5L with a 4077-A floorplan. > >Although similar, Harbor Rest and Harbor Point were not identical to the > >earlier Harbor cars. Harbor Rest and Harbor Point are listed as PS5LA with a > >4141 floorplan. > > >- ------- > The PS5L(a) designation would have been applied only after the coars were > converted to 5 br lounge cars. This occurred in the late 50s as I recall. According to the wonderful passenger roster at "Keystone Crossings" (grin) via http://prr.dsop.com/passops, "Only two in the class, both cars were remodeled in 1943. The secretary's room and barber shop were removed. The new car featured five double bedrooms and a bar-lounge." > The barber shop/train phione/secretary cfacilities were replaced with 3 brs. > As built the cars had only 2 bedrooms and therefore would have been classes > PS2L and PS2La. Correct. (Though I think I just learned it!) BTW: The PS2L page is incomplete and does not include the latter two PS2L's...yet. Just keep running out of time; perhaps tonight. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 31 Jul 97 09:59:29 UT Subject: LISTMASTER COMMENT: RE: (lurching off subject) Content-Length: 854 (sigh) Okay, a complaint or two has surfaced. In all fairness to those readers, let's get back to topic. A post now and then that has some relevance, if only humorous, is okay. However, the "way things used to be" and "turnpike" threads should be ended...or completed directly and not via the list. Thank you. At the same time, I should state that FLAMES should not be posted to the list either. Those who take offense to postings should contact the sender directly or contact "listmaster@dsop.com" to have the matter addressed. Please do not take it upon yourself to discipline the list. Thank you. 'nough said...keep on trackin'. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 31 Jul 97 10:33:45 UT Subject: Re: BROADWAY LTD Mid-Train Lounge Content-Length: 2650 Alright; I think I have the picture now. As built in 38, HARBOR SPRINGS and HARBOR POINT would have been class PS2L. But PRR classes had not yet been defined and applied to passenger cars. In 1943 they were rebuilt to 5 br lounges; probably to meet war demands. This means the B'way operated without the phone, barber, and sec'y during the war. (makes sense). In 1948 the new equipment was delivered and (I'm guessing here) the PRR started to apply car class designations to its passenger cars. Where there was a conflict, e.g. the 442s, the new cars received the primary designation and the 38 cars received the "a" subclasss. With the new cars the B'way returned to its glory and once again carried a phone/barber/secy; now in HARBOR COVE and HARBOR REST. Thes new cars would be classed PS2L. The old HARBOR cars were then classed PS5L. In the late 50s phone/barber/secy services were again dropped - this time because of the assault by the US Bureau of Public Road and the FAA rather than the Axis powers; and HARBOR COVE and HARBOR REST became class PS5La since class PS5L was already occupied by HARBOR SPRINGS and HARBOR POINT. If this is true then their never was a class PS2La. Is all this clear? (whew!) regards Andy Miller >From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org > >> >Harbor Springs and Harbor Point are listed as PS5L with a 4077-A >floorplan. >> >Although similar, Harbor Rest and Harbor Point were not identical to the >> >earlier Harbor cars. Harbor Rest and Harbor Point are listed as PS5LA >with a >> >4141 floorplan. >> > >>- ------- >> The PS5L(a) designation would have been applied only after the coars were > >> converted to 5 br lounge cars. This occurred in the late 50s as I >recall. > >According to the wonderful passenger roster at "Keystone Crossings" (grin) >via http://prr.dsop.com/passops, "Only two in the class, both cars were >remodeled in 1943. The secretary's room and barber shop were removed. The >new car featured five double bedrooms and a bar-lounge." > >> The barber shop/train phione/secretary cfacilities were replaced with 3 >brs. >> As built the cars had only 2 bedrooms and therefore would have been >classes >> PS2L and PS2La. > >Correct. (Though I think I just learned it!) > >BTW: The PS2L page is incomplete and does not include the latter two >PS2L's...yet. Just keep running out of time; perhaps tonight. >--------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator >Progressive Information Technologies >britton@pit-magnus.com >http://www.pit-magnus.com >1 JPEG = 1K words > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cupper@ibm.net Date: 31 Jul 97 11:23:37 UT Subject: Re: PRR-MofW Car #'s Content-Length: 1160 > > Has anyone ever seen a list of PRR > psgr cars converted to work train service? > Dick Brundage Tulsa OK bnsftulsa@aol.com > There's sort of a reverse list for former heavyweight Pullman cars only, contained in the 290-page Bob Wayner publication "Complete Record of Heavyweight Pullman Cars." By reverse list, I mean that you start with the car's original diagram designation/lot number, date, and name, and follow it through any renamings/renumberings. Example: Plan 3979A -- 8 sections, 1 drawing room and 2 compartments (Diagram 25) Lot 6377 (20 cars) built July-August 1930 8 cars Bear Oak to Yellow Oak to Pennsylvania RR, 12 cars Emerald Pass to Wonder Pass for New York Central. (list of all 20 cars follows, one PRR car shown here for example) Spanish Oak 12/48 leased to Pullman by PRR, #8612 added, 7/62 withdrawn from lease; to work car 493958. This, of course, does not directly answer your question, as it does not show PRR-built and originally PRR-owned classes such as P70s and PB70s, plenty of both of which found their way into work train service. Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Psalm 84:5 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 31 Jul 97 13:06:15 UT Subject: FoM Decals: Need Your Input Content-Length: 1619 Since the paint scheme on the "Fleet of Modernism" is rather complex -- five gold stripes below the windows, one above, the dark tuscan window band, and the gold/black stripe around it -- it has been suggested that a one-piece decal be created to cover the entire side of the car because: 1) It would be too difficult to paint the gold stripes; and 2) Having stripes as their own decal would be too difficult to align. With this approach, however, I have two concerns: 1) In the large transparent sections (between narrow gold stripes) would the clear decal adversely affect the Tuscan Red coloring beneath? 2) Either " P E N N S Y L V A N I A" or "P U L L M A N" would need to be applied above the dark window band. Can a decal be placed on top of a decal? Same would apply to smaller car names and numbers. After looking through the PRRT&HS "Passenger Equipment Painting and Lettering" book, I realized that there are actually several lengths of decals required. Some cars have doors at both ends and require shorter window bands. Others are longer. There may be three varieties (not to mention the converted heavyweights). How would this best be handled? To keep costs down, only one decal set should be created. Would one long one be best, that a modeler could shorten out of the middle somewhere (at a window)? Obviously, the demand for this decal set is there. Stay tuned. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 31 Jul 97 14:11:52 UT Subject: RE: FoM Decals: Need Your Input Content-Length: 2916 Jerry, I apparently did not convey my original idea accuratly. I was thinking (sic) of one decal with all the striping and BOTH shades Tuscan. This would cover the entire side. It could be applied to a completly unpainted car! (Except the roof and ends which you would still have to paint). I thought that the " P E N N S Y L V A N I A" or "P U L L M A N" on the letterboard would be part of the one big decal and that the only additional decal needed then would be the car name or number. You are right about the centering causing a large number of variations. I had envisioned only 2 variations: an 85 foot single vesibule car with the letter- board prelettered "P U L L M A N", and an 80 foot (+/-) car with no or two vestibules with the letterboard prelettered "P E N N S Y L V A N I A". The first would be for the sleepers and the second for diners and repainted P70s. However, this leave uncovered the single vestibule P70 rebuilds such as the P70k and the P70gs. I would have to carefully check painting diagrams to see whether the "P E N N S Y L V A N I A" set, intended for an even number of vestibules, could be made to center properly on a single vestibule car. The last question to be resolved is how well such a large decal would "snuggle" down over the body details. Is there enough Solvaset in the world to get it to expose all the rivets on a Bachmann P70? regards Andy Miller . . . > it has been suggested that a one-piece >decal be created to cover the entire side of the car because: > >1) It would be too difficult to paint the gold stripes; and > >2) Having stripes as their own decal would be too difficult to align. > >With this approach, however, I have two concerns: > >1) In the large transparent sections (between narrow gold stripes) would the >clear decal adversely affect the Tuscan Red coloring beneath? > >2) Either " P E N N S Y L V A N I A" or "P U L L M A N" would need to be >applied above the dark window band. Can a decal be placed on top of a decal? >Same would apply to smaller car names and numbers. > >After looking through the PRRT&HS "Passenger Equipment Painting and >Lettering" book, I realized that there are actually several lengths of >decals required. Some cars have doors at both ends and require shorter >window bands. Others are longer. There may be three varieties (not to >mention the converted heavyweights). How would this best be handled? To keep >costs down, only one decal set should be created. Would one long one be >best, that a modeler could shorten out of the middle somewhere (at a >window)? > >Obviously, the demand for this decal set is there. Stay tuned. >--------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator >Progressive Information Technologies >britton@pit-magnus.com >http://www.pit-magnus.com >1 JPEG = 1K words > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 31 Jul 97 14:46:12 UT Subject: RE: FoM Decals: Need Your Input Content-Length: 1123 From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org > I apparently did not convey my original idea accuratly. I was thinking (sic) > of one decal with all the striping and BOTH shades Tuscan. This would cover > the entire side. It could be applied to a completly unpainted car! (Except > the roof and ends which you would still have to paint). > ... > You are right about the centering causing a large number of variations.> > ... > The last question to be resolved is how well such a large decal would >"snuggle" down over the body details. Sounds like a bumper sticker! I don't think the opaque concept will work. Getting a "thick" opaque decal to lay down smoothly over doors and other side details is asking too much. If you cut out the doors, then you've got a paint-to-decal color matching problem. Further, there's the centering problem on the letterboards. Don't fret, I've got some other ideas. ;-) --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: relliott@mail.telis.org Date: 31 Jul 97 14:59:47 UT Subject: Re: FoM Decals: Need Your Input Content-Length: 2109 britton@pit-magnus.com wrote: > > Since the paint scheme on the "Fleet of Modernism" is rather complex -- five > gold stripes below the windows, one above, the dark tuscan window band, and > the gold/black stripe around it -- it has been suggested that a one-piece > decal be created to cover the entire side of the car because: > > 1) It would be too difficult to paint the gold stripes; and >Paint stripes?!? > 2) Having stripes as their own decal would be too difficult to align. > I've become pretty talented at applying pennsy doubel and single stripes to N-scale passenger cars :) > With this approach, however, I have two concerns: > 1) In the large transparent sections (between narrow gold stripes) would the clear decal adversely affect the Tuscan Red coloring beneath? If you put a coat of clear gloss over the tuscan before applying the decal, you should have not problem. It seems to work for me. > > 2) Either " P E N N S Y L V A N I A" or "P U L L M A N" would need to be > applied above the dark window band. Can a decal be placed on top of a decal? I have done it. Wasn't noticeable. Try a coat of clear gloss before the next decal? > Same would apply to smaller car names and numbers. > > After looking through the PRRT&HS "Passenger Equipment Painting and > Lettering" book, I realized that there are actually several lengths of > decals required. Some cars have doors at both ends and require shorter > window bands. Others are longer. There may be three varieties (not to > mention the converted heavyweights). How would this best be handled? To keep > costs down, only one decal set should be created. Would one long one be > best, that a modeler could shorten out of the middle somewhere (at a > window)? > That seems like a good solution to me..... > Obviously, the demand for this decal set is there. Stay tuned. > --------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > Progressive Information Technologies > britton@pit-magnus.com > http://www.pit-magnus.com > 1 JPEG = 1K words !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: robs@protocol.zycad.com Date: 31 Jul 97 15:13:21 UT Subject: Re: FoM Decals: Need Your Input Content-Length: 2019 One problem with the huge full body decal is that decals don't really like adhering to unpained plastic. Most decal manufacturers reccommend using painted plasitc (even just a gloss coating over the bare plastic) If you're going to spray the body first (the ends need painting anyway!) you might as well spray the sides too. A problem mentioned on the Pennsy retail research instructions are that decals aren't totally opaque. To compenstae, he used a color that looks kinda funny on the decal sheet, but he claims that it's that color so it will look correct only when applied over a tuscan red background. Also, some decal printers might have a problem registering the darker window stripe and the fine striping running around it with a decal that long... Any way you look at it, this probably won't be a cheap decal set! How about laser cut masking tape! Like a one use stencil! Might work for doing the window band at least... It could be cut to match the striping decal precisely... Rob Original message.... From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org > I apparently did not convey my original idea accuratly. I was thinking (sic) > of one decal with all the striping and BOTH shades Tuscan. This would cover > the entire side. It could be applied to a completly unpainted car! (Except > the roof and ends which you would still have to paint). > ... > You are right about the centering causing a large number of variations.> > ... > The last question to be resolved is how well such a large decal would >"snuggle" down over the body details. Sounds like a bumper sticker! I don't think the opaque concept will work. Getting a "thick" opaque decal to lay down smoothly over doors and other side details is asking too much. If you cut out the doors, then you've got a paint-to-decal color matching problem. Further, there's the centering problem on the letterboards. Don't fret, I've got some other ideas. ;-) --------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 31 Jul 97 15:33:52 UT Subject: CD-ROM Order Deadline Content-Length: 597 Reminder: Today is the deadline for ordering Volume 1 of "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings" on CD-ROM. If you still haven't sent a check, do it today and e-mail me. This weekend I'll post who all I got orders from, so you'll be able to confirm that I have your order. Don't fret if you miss this release. Volume 2 (inclusive of Volume 1) should be announced for December delivery. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: dennis@bbn.com Date: 31 Jul 97 16:32:34 UT Subject: Re: FoM Decals: Need Your Input Content-Length: 1126 On 31 Jul, asmiller@mail11.mitre.org wrote: > I apparently did not convey my original idea accuratly. I was thinking (sic) > of one decal with all the striping and BOTH shades Tuscan. This would cover > the entire side. It could be applied to a completly unpainted car! > [ ... ] Andy, wouldn't it work better to put the oddball Tuscan (the window border, right?) on the decal, and apply the decal to a plainly painted carside? Use MicroScale's clear overcoat software (I *think* it's software) to halo the lines, and there you are. I would also think that having two decals, one for the right end, and one for the left, with separate lettering decals, would eliminate the necessity for different decals for different lengths and vestibule configurations. If I can lay down boxcar end numbers a digit at a time in N Scale, surely you guys can line up some little stripes! Dennis Rockwell dennis@bbn.com _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 31 Jul 97 21:16:19 UT Subject: JOIN THE PRRT&HS (was Re: Pennsylvania Station-Baltimore) Content-Length: 998 In a message dated 97-07-30 21:29:08 EDT, you write: << > I'm new to this list. Could someon please tell me what the PRRT&HS is? > If it's a magazine devoted to PRR buffs could someone please send me the > mailing address or phone number to subscribe >> For your $30 dollars in annual PRRT&HS dues you get a subscription to The Keystone, a quarterly journal devoted to the technology and history of the Standard Railway of the World that once stretched from Montauk to Keokuk (pre-1927 divestitiure of the TP&W); Baltimore, Washington, Philadelphia and New York west to St. Louis, from Sodus Point, NY (Lake Ontario's south shore) to Cape Charles, Va., Rosslyn, Va., from Buffalo, Erie and Ashtabula south to Winchester, Va., and Marietta, Ohio; and from the Straights of Mackinac to the mighty Ohio River at Cincinnati and Louisville. I'm a new PRRT&HS member whose main interest is in the PRR Lines West of Pittsburgh. I'm very satisfied with my membership. Tom Vondruska !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: postmaster@dsop.com Date: 01 Aug 97 00:14:33 UT Subject: undeliverable mail Content-Length: 357 Message-Id: X-Mailer: RingTwice for the Macintosh Date: 01 Aug 97 00:14:33 UT From: postmaster@dsop.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: undeliverable mail Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Your message to: was not sent. Syntax Error. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rond@efn.org Date: 01 Aug 97 02:48:03 UT Subject: Re: FoM Decals: Need Your Input Content-Length: 1174 Hi Jerry, My N-Scale '38 Broadway set is still undecaled due to the intimidation factor of the decals. It is pretty much impossible to determine what elements are joined or separate. They do appear to be spaced correctly prompting the guess that they are all one decal. The window bars are solid, as someone described the HO set, requiring cutting in the windows where needed. The various lengths are covered by having each side in two halves. Each half of the window bar is approx. 3.65in which gives a 97.33+ft long window bar. The thin gold stripes extend approx. .56in past the round end of the window bars (7.46+ft). Basically "one size fits all". The window bar appears to be too "purple" to me which is why I'm interested in your's being available in N-Scale. Also my set is only seven cars and I want to add more. You won't believe how many names they provided on each sheet. 134 separate words that should allow naming for at least 100 different cars. Seven variations of REA/RPO lettering. Two variations of Pennsy and Pullman lettering. Many numbers in two sizes. I can give a more detailed description if it would help. Ron. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: eminton@hula.net Date: 01 Aug 97 05:10:02 UT Subject: Re: CD-ROM Order Deadline Content-Length: 803 What is Keystone Crossings? As a new participant I am not aware. I enjoy this Group very much. Thank You and Aloha. Eric britton@pit-magnus.com wrote: > Reminder: > > Today is the deadline for ordering Volume 1 of "Excerpts from Keystone > > Crossings" on CD-ROM. If you still haven't sent a check, do it today > and > e-mail me. This weekend I'll post who all I got orders from, so you'll > be > able to confirm that I have your order. > > Don't fret if you miss this release. Volume 2 (inclusive of Volume 1) > should > be announced for December delivery. > --------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > Progressive Information Technologies > britton@pit-magnus.com > http://www.pit-magnus.com > 1 JPEG = 1K words !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 01 Aug 97 07:05:03 UT Subject: Re: What is Keystone Crossings? Content-Length: 716 From: eminton@hula.net > What is Keystone Crossings? As a new participant I am not aware. I enjoy > this Group very much. Wow...someone found this list without going through the web site! "Keystone Crossings" (a.k.a. "KC") is my Web site dedicated to the PRR. It is one of about a half dozen such sites that have "quantities" of PRR data. The URL to my site is in my signature, below. If you visit, there is a "Links" page with links to the other sites I mentioned. Happy surfing! 8-) ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SteamEngine@webtv.net Date: 01 Aug 97 09:04:15 UT Subject: New to the PRR talk list. Content-Length: 403 I am Pennsy fan from Canton Ohio,I have a large layout modeled after the state of Pennsyvania. My layout is L shaped , it is 10 ft. wide , 24ft.,by 27ft. I have many Engines superdetailed with antennas. I have 3 brass engines a J1-A . a M1a, and the K-4. I'm looking forward to reading all the information and comments about the Pennsy RR Ed France !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 01 Aug 97 09:13:42 UT Subject: Re: New to the PRR talk list Content-Length: 1046 From: SteamEngine@webtv.net > I am Pennsy fan from Canton Ohio,I have a large layout modeled after the > state of Pennsyvania. My layout is L shaped , it is > 10 ft. wide , 24ft.,by 27ft. I have many Engines > superdetailed with antennas. I have 3 brass > engines a J1-A . a M1a, and the K-4. I'm > looking forward to reading all the information > and comments about the Pennsy RR Welcome aboard! "Tom V." will be especially glad you're here, as he is in the "minority" and will welcome another "Lines Westerner"! Your layout sounds great -- nice size! "Keystone Crossings" has a page dedicated to descriptions of "PRR-Talk" subscriber's Pennsy layouts. Take a loot. Then, if you want, e-mail me directly (here or at "jerry@dsop.com") to submit an expanded version of your layout description. Photos are welcome. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 01 Aug 97 09:25:46 UT Subject: Re: FoM Decals: Need Your Input Content-Length: 872 In a message dated 97-08-01 07:58:26 EDT, you write: << Since the paint scheme on the "Fleet of Modernism" is rather complex -- five gold stripes below the windows, one above, the dark tuscan window band, and the gold/black stripe around it -- it has been suggested that a one-piece decal be created to cover the entire side of the car >> That's the idea. There are some of us modelers whose phyisical motions are limited. While my buddy Parkinson hasn't stopped my modeling, he does make it difficult to manipulate my right hand from time to time. Because of the fragility of decals, its now one of my more difficult tasks. Small or extremely slender decals are especially vunerable. BUT MAKING BIG DECALS IS NOT A PANACEA! Make them too big and it becomes difficult to manipulate the artwork onto the carside with out damaging them. Tom V. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: 01 Aug 97 09:31:46 UT Subject: Re: FoM Decals: Need Your Input Content-Length: 922 In a message dated 97-08-01 07:51:36 EDT, you write: << 1) In the large transparent sections (between narrow gold stripes) would the clear decal adversely affect the Tuscan Red coloring beneath? >> No......it should not. However, in the application of a large decal, air bubbles sometimes are apt to appear. Each bubble must be pricked with a pin or other sharp object and a decal setting solution reapplied to the area. Also, applying decals over window areas and then cutting them out might just be a nightmare in the making. Even using a brand new #11 Exacto blade, the decal still likes to tear on occasion as well as the edges of a cut out area are apt to lift and cause silvering problems. I feel keeping the decal as small as possible might be a better solution. There are numerous straight line references (roof line, window line, etc.) to aid alignment. Just an opinion. :-) George !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 01 Aug 97 09:32:58 UT Subject: Re: New to the PRR talk list. Content-Length: 554 In a message dated 97-08-01 09:19:24 EDT, you write: << I am Pennsy fan from Canton Ohio,I have a large layout modeled after the state of Pennsyvania. >> Welcome aboard, Ed. Hope you have fun with the rest of us. There's a lot to be learned about the Pennsylvania. BTW, if you're from Canton, you might beable to answer this question. Is there anything left of the Fort Wayne System's four-tracked main between Alliance & Canton. As far as I know it was the only four-tracked section of Pennsy trackage west of Pittsburgh. Tom Vondruska !!NEXT MESSAGE!!