Juniata Terminal questions

Atlas has just announced another release of the "GEEP 7"

http://www.atlasrr= .com/HOLoco/hogp72.htm

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS 346
PRRT&HS 7487=
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ 2003

-------------------------------1083634976-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: k4sb@niia.net Subject: [PRR] RailFanning in Central PA Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 03:15:19 -00 From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 07:32:04 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 05/03/04 In a message dated 5/3/04 1:11:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Questions -- Lines West help needed > From: "Dan Cupper" > Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 22:58:49 -0400 > > Greetings to Jerry and the List: > > Am helping a friend who's grappling with the scope of PRR operations in > Chicagoland in preparation for his task of scriptwriting for a PRR video > in the works. Can anyone verify where PRR serviced its passenger steam > engines in Chicago? My assumption is that light engines cut off their > trains at CUS, backed light out past the South Branch Drawbridge, > crossed Alton Jct., and ran to EC, where they left the PFtW&C main line > and used PRR's short (2.3-mile) Englewood Connecting RR to get to 59th > St. Yard, which was over on the Panhandle main line. Is this correct? > > Dan Cupper > Harrisburg, Pa. > Dan, My memory suggests passenger power was serviced fairly close (16th Street enginehouse). However (as you know) my memories only go back into diesel days. If so, this was in the shadow of the St. Charles Airline bridge, at the south end of 12th Street coach yards. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_116.321bf8d8.2dc8d934_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a messa= ge dated 5/3/04 1:11:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:<= BR>

Subject: Questions -- Lines Wes= t help needed
From: "Dan Cupper" <cupper@att.net>
Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 22:58:49 -0400

Greetings to Jerry and the List:

Am helping a friend who's grappling with the scope of PRR operations in
Chicagoland in preparation for his task of scriptwriting for a PRR video in the works. Can anyone verify where PRR serviced its passenger steam
engines in Chicago? My assumption is that light engines cut off their
trains at CUS, backed light out past the South Branch Drawbridge,
crossed Alton Jct., and ran to EC, where they left the PFtW&C main line=20=
and used PRR's short (2.3-mile) Englewood Connecting RR to get to 59th
St. Yard, which was over on the Panhandle main line. Is this correct?

Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, Pa.

Dan,

My memory suggests passenger power was serviced fairly close (16th Street en= ginehouse). However (as you know) my memories only go back into diesel= days. If so, this was in the shadow of the St. Charles Airline bridge= , at the south end of 12th Street coach yards.

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_116.321bf8d8.2dc8d934_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Nesbitt" Subject: [PRR] Juniata Terminal questions Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 09:37:07 -0400 I'm looking for some of the history of Juniata Terminal. Being a railroad history buff this location has my curiosity up. Perhaps someone will be kind enough to tell me... *When was this structure built *What was the original name *What was the original purpose *How was the location switched out *Track plan available? *What is the address of this location I would find any history related to this location helpful. I am considering adding a compressed version to my layout. The next time Mr. Levin has this location open for a tour I would like to attend as well Thanks Kenny ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C431BB.5E467E20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Juniata Terminal questions

I'm looking for some of the history of = Juniata Terminal. Being a railroad history buff this location has = my curiosity up. Perhaps someone will be kind enough to tell = me...

*When was this structure built
*What was the original name
*What was the original purpose
*How was the location switched = out
*Track plan available?
*What is the address of this = location

I would find any history related to = this location helpful. I am considering adding a compressed version to = my layout. The next time Mr. Levin has this location open for a = tour I would like to attend as well

Thanks

Kenny

------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C431BB.5E467E20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Nesbitt" Subject: [PRR] Juniata Terminal questions Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 09:37:07 -0400 I'm looking for some of the history of Juniata Terminal. Being a railroad history buff this location has my curiosity up. Perhaps someone will be kind enough to tell me... *When was this structure built *What was the original name *What was the original purpose *How was the location switched out *Track plan available? *What is the address of this location I would find any history related to this location helpful. I am considering adding a compressed version to my layout. The next time Mr. Levin has this location open for a tour I would like to attend as well Thanks Kenny ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C431BB.5E467E20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Juniata Terminal questions

I'm looking for some of the history of = Juniata Terminal. Being a railroad history buff this location has = my curiosity up. Perhaps someone will be kind enough to tell = me...

*When was this structure built
*What was the original name
*What was the original purpose
*How was the location switched = out
*Track plan available?
*What is the address of this = location

Thanks

Kenny

------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C431BB.5E467E20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 11:25:32 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Maintenance Locations Indicated in MP229's From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <488C22BE-9DDF-11D8-80FB-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: The MP229's report what locos are assigned to what divisions. The listings include the road number, class, and a number signifying the foreman in charge of maintenance of the loco. The front of the MP229 has a list of all of those foreman numbers and cross references them to the actual names of the foremen. Question is, is there some place that cross references those foremen with the actual location? For instance, foremen codes starting with 0, 1, and 2 are in the Eastern Region. If I go to the Philadelphia Division pages, for instance, I will see foreman codes of 013 and 015. But where are they? I suspect one might be Harrisburg and one might be Enola. I suspect 013 is Enola, as many freight steam locos are indicated that code. And the GG1's bear 015...so I suspect that is Harrisburg. If I go to the Middle Division pages, the passenger locos -- all of which were supposedly serviced at Harrisburg -- show 023. So 023 is likely a Harrisburg location. A lot of the freight locos bear 021, which I suspect is Enola. While a cross reference for the entire system would be nice, if anyone knows all of the codes for Harrisburg and/or Enola, I'd love to hear from you! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 11:25:32 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Maintenance Locations Indicated in MP229's From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <488C22BE-9DDF-11D8-80FB-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: The MP229's report what locos are assigned to what divisions. The listings include the road number, class, and a number signifying the foreman in charge of maintenance of the loco. The front of the MP229 has a list of all of those foreman numbers and cross references them to the actual names of the foremen. Question is, is there some place that cross references those foremen with the actual location? For instance, foremen codes starting with 0, 1, and 2 are in the Eastern Region. If I go to the Philadelphia Division pages, for instance, I will see foreman codes of 013 and 015. But where are they? I suspect one might be Harrisburg and one might be Enola. I suspect 013 is Enola, as many freight steam locos are indicated that code. And the GG1's bear 015...so I suspect that is Harrisburg. If I go to the Middle Division pages, the passenger locos -- all of which were supposedly serviced at Harrisburg -- show 023. So 023 is likely a Harrisburg location. A lot of the freight locos bear 021, which I suspect is Enola. While a cross reference for the entire system would be nice, if anyone knows all of the codes for Harrisburg and/or Enola, I'd love to hear from you! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 08:37:20 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Chicks by mail redux Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 13:31:44 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PR freight schedules From: Frederick Ripley X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Subject: [PRR] Updated N.E. Proto Meet info. -- June 4-5 Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 14:31:06 -0400 Message-ID: <40B640756E867447A01C4C7BFEE454EB05BD00E2@tpc-hrt-exmb1.tribune.ad.trb> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] Who designed the PRR Keystone logo??? Thread-Index: AcQphEemlbiaItgoRDK2n0JKyPZRUwIgYJWQ From: "Owens, David" To: Return-Path: DOwens@courant.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 May 2004 18:31:07.0781 (UTC) FILETIME=[F7431350:01C43205] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Northeast/New England=09 Prototype Modelers Meet=09 June 4-5, 2004 =20 9 a.m. to 11 p.m. each day =09 Canton Community Center =09 40 Dyer Avenue, Collinsville, CT=09 Meet cost: $20 in advance, $25 at door For more information, contact=20 Dave Owens at dowens@courant.com=20 or 203-757-8663 Please remember that the heart of the meet is the model dislay. Bring = your models, finished and unfinished, to display in the model room. = There's no judging. The goal is to share information and techniques. We'll also have some dealers on Saturday. Also, as a bonus to people arriving early, Bill Schneider of Branchline = Trains will open the Branchline factory for tours on Thursday evening. = Email or call me for details. Scheduled programs include: Prototype weathering with Mike Rose and Ned Carey. Learn Mike's = techniques, and then employ them in a hands-on clinic. Bring a model and = if possible a prototype photo of it. Scratchbuilding basics with Roger Moreau. Roger's scratchbuilt Schnable = car was a big hit last year. This year he's working on a dockside = container crane and will offer a hands-on clinic. Bring tools. Prototype intermodal operations with Ramon C. Rhodes. Ramon will show = how the prototype railroads do it, and how you can do it on your model = railroad. Modeling catenary with Rick Abramson. Rick is a well-known New Haven = modeler whose catenary layout is scheduled to be featured in the August = Model Railroader. The milk market for the PRR, RDG and CNJ with John Greene. John is the = owner of Bethlehem Car Works. Vehicle Modeling with George Barrett. George is the owner of Sheepscot = Scale Models, producer of fine vehicle, structure and maritime kits. The Railway Express Agency with Victor Roseman. You may know Victor as a = first-class modeler and author whose work has graced several magazines. Resin casting with Ben Brown. Ben will reprise his popular clinic from = last year. Cool things to model with Den Lippert. Den will present interesting = things he's spotted on his railfanning journeys. Modeling a MEC/Guilford U18B with Mike Rose. Mike recently completed one = of these GE units and will show you how to build one. The Joy of Scratchbuilding with Mike Tylick. The title says it all.=20 New England milk trains with Don Valentine of New England Rail Service. = Don will also lead a workshop on kitbashing Rivarossi 12-1 sleepers and = other cars. Bring a car to work on! Pullman Cars with Al Hoffman. Al will talk about the cars that each = railroad operated when the feds broke up the Pullman Co.=20 Also featuring Tom Nanos, Bob LaMay, Pete McLachlan, Jeff Hanke, Jim = Tylick, Dave Geisler, Al Westerfield, Neil Gage and J.P. Barger. Northeast/New England=09 Prototype Modelers Meet=09 June 4-5, 2004 =20 9 a.m. to 11 p.m. each day =09 Canton Community Center =09 40 Dyer Avenue, Collinsville, CT=09 Meet cost: $20 in advance, $25 at door For more information, contact=20 Dave Owens at dowens@courant.com=20 or 203-757-8663 Please remember that the heart of the meet is the model dislay. Bring = your models, finished and unfinished, to display in the model room. = There's no judging. The goal is to share information and techniques. We'll also have some dealers on Saturday. Also, as a bonus to people arriving early, Bill Schneider of Branchline = Trains will open the Branchline factory for tours on Thursday evening. = Email or call me for details. Scheduled programs include: Prototype weathering with Mike Rose and Ned Carey. Learn Mike's = techniques, and then employ them in a hands-on clinic. Bring a model and = if possible a prototype photo of it. Scratchbuilding basics with Roger Moreau. Roger's scratchbuilt Schnable = car was a big hit last year. This year he's working on a dockside = container crane and will offer a hands-on clinic. Bring tools. Prototype intermodal operations with Ramon C. Rhodes. Ramon will show = how the prototype railroads do it, and how you can do it on your model = railroad. Modeling catenary with Rick Abramson. Rick is a well-known New Haven = modeler whose catenary layout is scheduled to be featured in the August = Model Railroader. The milk market for the PRR, RDG and CNJ with John Greene. John is the = owner of Bethlehem Car Works. Vehicle Modeling with George Barrett. George is the owner of Sheepscot = Scale Models, producer of fine vehicle, structure and maritime kits. The Railway Express Agency with Victor Roseman. You may know Victor as a = first-class modeler and author whose work has graced several magazines. Resin casting with Ben Brown. Ben will reprise his popular clinic from = last year. Cool things to model with Den Lippert. Den will present interesting = things he's spotted on his railfanning journeys. Modeling a MEC/Guilford U18B with Mike Rose. Mike recently completed one = of these GE units and will show you how to build one. The Joy of Scratchbuilding with Mike Tylick. The title says it all.=20 New England milk trains with Don Valentine of New England Rail Service. = Don will also lead a workshop on kitbashing Rivarossi 12-1 sleepers and = other cars. Bring a car to work on! Pullman Cars with Al Hoffman. Al will talk about the cars that each = railroad operated when the feds broke up the Pullman Co.=20 Also featuring Tom Nanos, Bob LaMay, Pete McLachlan, Jeff Hanke, Jim = Tylick, Dave Geisler, Al Westerfield, Neil Gage and J.P. Barger. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Future Convention Locations Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 15:02:50 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I've seen several posts suggesting that conventions west of Pittsburgh should maybe only be every 5 years or so. I'm curious why so many people seem to think this. The superb convention in Cincinnati was attended by 338, about the same number we get at Camp Hill, if memory serves me (dangerous at my age, of course!). Yes, it's a long drive for we easterners, but hey - our eastern conventions are a long drive for the Lines West folks. So, in my humble opinion, if another Lines West group wants to host a convention, why not, regardless of time between trips west? For conventions of that quality and the fresh information on Lines West, I'd do it again in a heartbeat! Just one SPF's opinion! Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Horseshoe overgrowth Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 19:44:52 +0000 Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 16:18:19 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Obs. Louis Sockalexis Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Listers- Can anyone provide any info on PRR Obs. Louis Sockalexis? I cannot find it listed anywhere in my library. TIA. Regards, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: k4sb@niia.net Subject: [PRR] More RailFanning in Central PA Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 00:18:27 -00 >From: k4sb@niia.net >Subject: RE: [PRR] RailFanning in Central PA >Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 03:15:19 -00 From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 21:40:34 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Questions -- Lines West help needed X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 46 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 5/2/04 10:56:03 PM, ajc5150@insightbb.com writes: << Am helping a friend who's grappling with the scope of PRR operations in Chicagoland in preparation for his task of scriptwriting for a PRR video in the works. Can anyone verify where PRR serviced its passenger steam engines in Chicago? My assumption is that light engines cut off their trains at CUS, backed light out past the South Branch Drawbridge, crossed Alton Jct., and ran to EC, where they left the PFtW&C main line and used PRR's short (2.3-mile) Englewood Connecting RR to get to 59th St. Yard, which was over on the Panhandle main line. Is this correct? >> Dan - Don't know if it helps, but I was just clicking through the cable channels and came to AMC. They are running a movie (several times, it appears) called "Silver Streak." It has been a long time since I watched this but, IIRC, there is a scene at the end where the train is moving through a Chicago yard and, eventually, into the terminal (actually, INTO the terminal, ala Washington, DC). I forget whether it is the Pennsy terminal or the other one but it may be of interest, either way. But, I seem to remember that, when I watched the flick, I thought about the times I rode the Pennsy into Chicago. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] ID this car Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 23:02:18 -0500 Guys (and gals): this car on eBay has me stumped. Is this some kind of = coffee-shop lounge car or what? = http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3D484&item=3D31916= 17459&rd=3D1 Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C4322B.D938FE30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

Guys (and gals): this car on eBay has = me=20 stumped. Is this some kind of coffee-shop lounge car or = what? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi= ewItem&category=3D484&item=3D3191617459&rd=3D1

Bob Zoeller

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C4322B.D938FE30-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "PRR-Talk" From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] ID this car Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 06:42:44 -0400 To: "Bob Zoeller" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On May 5, 2004, at 12:02 AM, Bob Zoeller wrote: > Guys (and gals): this car on eBay has me stumped.=A0 Is this some kind = =20 > of coffee-shop lounge car or what?=A0 =20 > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?=20 > ViewItem&category=3D484&item=3D3191617459&rd=3D1 If you can ask and supply the road number we can ascertain what it =20 "purports to be". With a number you can do a lookup in the Varnish =20 database on Keystone Crossings. Several of its characteristics -- the roof shape, the porthole window, =20= etc. -- suggest it is one of the 1938-39 diners. It is NOT one of the =20= P70c/P70d cars. Even for a kitchen area, there are usually more windows down the full =20= length of the car. This one does not have that, opening the door that =20= it might have a dorm in one end. Did you check the elevations on Rob's site? I didn't have the time to =20= do so at present. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Juniata Terminal questions Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 07:10:33 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ken, Juniata terminal Company was formerly the Frankford Terminal Freight House recieving perishable goods and LCL freight. Most likely built in the 1920's due to its construction, with cranes added later. The location was most likely switched by a local crew, track access is from the "0" Conrail Freight track off of Frankford Junction. As far as the original track arrangement, 3 tracks entered the building as they do now. with a forth paralleling the side of the building where the baggage car and N8 sit now. The unoccupied area north of these tracks and the NEC were probably once a yard. I can't give you an exact address but if you mapquest it its near the intersection of Tioga Ave. and the NEC. Bennett would be able to answer some of these questions at a greater length. From what I know, he has working drawings of the building. Best Regards, John "Ken Nesbitt" wrote: I'm looking for some of the history of Juniata Terminal. Being a railroad history buff this location has my curiosity up. Perhaps someone will be kind enough to tell me... *When was this structure built *What was the original name *What was the original purpose *How was the location switched out *Track plan available? *What is the address of this location I would find any history related to this location helpful. I am considering adding a compressed version to my layout. The next time Mr. Levin has this location open for a tour I would like to attend as well Thanks Kenny ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 07:58:40 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicks by mail redux Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: My rural, small post office has a poster on the wall listing what you can ship (baby chix, books, some kinds of paint, etc.) and what you can't ( explosives, guns, big chickens, dogs!). FWIW, anything weighing over a pound in weight actually goes on a FedEx or UPS plane, not a passenger airliner. Jim McDaniel, who has no chickens of any kind on the property, in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 07:55:09 -0500 Subject: [PRR] B60b questions From: Frederick Ripley Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 08:11:59 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] ID this car From: Bruce Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Wednesday, May 5, 2004, at 05:42 AM, Jerry @ Pennsy wrote: > On May 5, 2004, at 12:02 AM, Bob Zoeller wrote: > >> Guys (and gals): this car on eBay has me stumped.=A0 Is this some = kind =20 >> of coffee-shop lounge car or what?=A0 =20 >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/=20 >> eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3D484&item=3D3191617459&rd=3D1 > > If you can ask and supply the road number we can ascertain what it =20 > "purports to be". With a number you can do a lookup in the Varnish =20 > database on Keystone Crossings. > > Several of its characteristics -- the roof shape, the porthole window, = =20 > etc. -- suggest it is one of the 1938-39 diners. It is NOT one of the =20= > P70c/P70d cars. > > Even for a kitchen area, there are usually more windows down the full =20= > length of the car. This one does not have that, opening the door that =20= > it might have a dorm in one end. The model appears to have a vestibule on both ends, opening the door =20 that it might not have been a diner at all, but was rebuilt from =20 some P70 class...It certainly would be helpful to have a view of the =20 other side too... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin =20= Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 09:24:16 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] B60b questions From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Wednesday, May 5, 2004, at 08:55 AM, Frederick Ripley wrote: > With the new B60b's coming out, I have a couple of questions: > > -did these handle checked baggage, as well as express? > > -I believe I read/heard that the version with vents on the roof > carried an > express messenger- is this correct? It didn't have to carry a messenger, but could. It was equipped with vents for air flow, a toilet, and a desk. > > -Any other different uses between the two? (vent vs no vents) I think otherwise they were the same. > What were > the respective nos. on the roster? I have the 1954 roster online at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/varnish/ Set the Class = B60b . This will return all B60b's. To find just the vented cars, also set Type = Baggage Express Messenger . To find just the non-vented cars, also set Type = Baggage Express . Again, this is as of 1954. Some of these cars likely did not make it to the mid-1960's, though many (most?) did. > By the mid-60's, which I model, what > would be an appropriate balance between the two? Can't help here. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 10:03:12 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicks by mail redux Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 09:12:09 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] B60b questions From: Frederick Ripley From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] B60b questions Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 10:44:37 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-reply-to: <81F7D9CE-9E97-11D8-96A2-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: The other differences were: - interior, the car also had a safe - exterior (more to the point for modeling), The car was identified by a star above the "Railway Express" legend Regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 9:24 AM To: Frederick Ripley Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] B60b questions On Wednesday, May 5, 2004, at 08:55 AM, Frederick Ripley wrote: > With the new B60b's coming out, I have a couple of questions: > > -did these handle checked baggage, as well as express? > > -I believe I read/heard that the version with vents on the roof > carried an > express messenger- is this correct? It didn't have to carry a messenger, but could. It was equipped with=20 vents for air flow, a toilet, and a desk. > > -Any other different uses between the two? (vent vs no vents) I think otherwise they were the same. > What were > the respective nos. on the roster? I have the 1954 roster online at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/varnish/ Set the Class =3D B60b . This will return all B60b's. To find just the vented cars, also set Type =3D Baggage Express = Messenger=20 . To find just the non-vented cars, also set Type =3D Baggage Express . Again, this is as of 1954. Some of these cars likely did not make it to=20 the mid-1960's, though many (most?) did. > By the mid-60's, which I model, what > would be an appropriate balance between the two? Can't help here. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone = Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: k4sb@niia.net Subject: [PRR] No More RailFanning in Central PA? Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 15:52:33 -00 >From: k4sb@niia.net >Subject: RE: [PRR] More RailFanning in Central PA >Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 00:18:27 -00 >>>From: k4sb@niia.net >>>Subject: RE: [PRR] RailFanning in Central PA >>>Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 03:15:19 -00 From: k4sb@niia.net Subject: [PRR] No More RailFanning in Central PA? Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 15:52:33 -00 >From: k4sb@niia.net >Subject: RE: [PRR] More RailFanning in Central PA >Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 00:18:27 -00 >>>From: k4sb@niia.net >>>Subject: RE: [PRR] RailFanning in Central PA >>>Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 03:15:19 -00 Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 08:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicks by mail redux From: Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Yep. US Mail still handles sundry live critters. Baby chicks, other bay fowl (pheasants, etc...) do fine in overnight (express.) Live Lobstah, suitably packaged goes express. Sundry Approved Insects (butterflies, etc, with inspections) also travel by mail... best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 20:38:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] ID this car X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Mac - Post-GM sub 146 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In reading the description, that it was custom PRR painted, my interpretation is that car was some other railroad's prototype, that was custom painted with a PRR scheme in error. Of course the missing box would explain things. Obviously not a normal diner, because no windows for diners. Dennis Sautters, PRRT&HS #1974 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 23:49:55 -0400 Subject: [PRR] ALTO Tower,1964 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Greetings At the PRRT&HS meet in Cincinnati,I picked up some old files on Alto,JD-ConPitt,and Rose interlockings. I just read through some of the files for ALTO Tower and came across some shocking info. In 1964, PRR management had made the decision to tare down ALTO Tower and build a new "fireproof" ALTO Tower directly across the tracks from the old location. The new ALTO would have been a one story Armco metal building. According to the paperwork in this file, the PRR did not want to spend $160.000 to rewire the interlocking and the project was dropped from PRR's 1965 Capital Improvement Program. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] ID this car Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 08:10:55 -0400 From: Prr1187@aol.com [mailto:Prr1187@aol.com] Subject: Re: [PRR] ID this car Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 10:04:43 -0400 Subject: [PRR] "Caps" in Freight Car Classes From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <532E8AC6-9F66-11D8-9087-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Can anyone authoritatively comment on the use of capitals in PRR freight car classes? Specifically, I have seen FM flats as either "FM" or "Fm". And for hoppers, the GLxx subclasses with the "L" both upper or lower, as in GLa vs. Gla GLca vs. Glca ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred in Vt." Subject: Re: [PRR] ID this car Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 11:15:24 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Chris, If the brown book you refer to is the NJ Intl. passenger plan book, please see page 66. It was one of 5 rebuilt for Jersey commuter service. No doubt this "captive service" unit was not familiar to many of the listers. Just don't get that sort of thing on Lines West !! For those who do not have the book; cars 1105, 1106,1108, 1109,1110, were the ones converted. The seating was in 2 arrangements: 30 coach / 24 dining & 40 coach / 16 dining. Those modeling the Long Branch operations into NYC would find this a unique piece for the collection. Fred in Vt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chany, Christopher" To: Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 8:10 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] ID this car > > Would this car be in a Brown Book? > > Chris Chany > > -----Original Message----- > From: Prr1187@aol.com [mailto:Prr1187@aol.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 8:38 PM > To: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu; jerry@pennsyrr.com > Cc: bobspf@wi.rr.com; prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] ID this car > > > In reading the description, that it was custom PRR painted, > my interpretation is that car was some other railroad's prototype, > that was custom painted with a PRR scheme in error. > > Of course the missing box would explain things. > > Obviously not a normal diner, because no windows for diners. > > Dennis Sautters, PRRT&HS #1974 > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] ID this car Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 11:27:06 -0400 From: Fred in Vt. [mailto:pennsy@sover.net] Subject: Re: [PRR] ID this car From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] ID this car > From: Prr1187@aol.com [mailto:Prr1187@aol.com] > Subject: Re: [PRR] ID this car RE: [PRR] ID this car

Not the Brown Book I was talking about but if it = answered the question do I get the credit? There is a book called = The Brown Book of Brass ... It supposedly has pictures of all the = brass that was imported but it may only be locos. Not sure!

Chris Chany

-----Original Message-----
From: Fred in Vt. [mailto:pennsy@sover.net]
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 11:15 AM
To: Chany, Christopher; prr-talk@dsop.com
Cc: Bruce F. Smith; Bob Zoeller
Subject: Re: [PRR] ID this car

Chris,
If = the brown book you refer to is the NJ Intl. passenger plan book,
please see page 66. It was one of 5 rebuilt for = Jersey commuter service. No
doubt this "captive service" unit was not = familiar to many of the listers.
Just don't get that sort of thing on Lines West = !!

For = those who do not have the book; cars 1105, 1106,1108,
1109,1110, were the ones converted. The seating was = in 2 arrangements: 30
coach / 24 dining & 40 coach / 16 dining. Those = modeling the Long Branch
operations into NYC would find this a unique piece = for the collection.

Fred in Vt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chany, Christopher" = <cpc1@westchestergov.com>
To: <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 8:10 AM
Subject: RE: [PRR] ID this car

>
> Would this car be in a Brown Book?
>
> Chris Chany
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Prr1187@aol.com [mailto:Prr1187@aol.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 8:38 PM
> To: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu; = jerry@pennsyrr.com
> Cc: bobspf@wi.rr.com; prr-talk@dsop.com
> Subject: Re: [PRR] ID this car
>
>
> In reading the description, that it was custom = PRR painted,
> my interpretation is that car was some other = railroad's prototype,
> that was custom painted with a PRR scheme in = error.
>
> Of course the missing box would explain = things.
>
> Obviously not a normal diner, because no = windows for diners.
>
> Dennis Sautters, PRRT&HS #1974
>
>
>
>
> = -----------------------------------------------------------------------<= /FONT>
> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
>
> = -----------------------------------------------------------------------<= /FONT>
> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C4337E.96D12000-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 11:26:28 -0400 Subject: [PRR] 1954 Freight Roster Online From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Yesterday I cumulated all of the data in the January 1955 ORER (which had 10/1/54 data from the Pennsy) to determine how many cars of each class/subclass were in service. This information is useful for filling out layout rosters if you are modeling the 1950's. The URL is http://kc.pennsyrr.com/freightops/54_fleet/ . I'm now adding in known models in HO or N scale, based on the class the manufacturer of the model paints on it (even if its wrong, but noting that). I know I am missing some HO models that I have to dig for -- the Rail Works flats that were released and the Branchline box cars. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 11:31:07 -0400 Subject: [PRR] H30's -- We Need Them! From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <64E69FDC-9F72-11D8-9087-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In looking over the 1954 roster info (see other post), it became painfully obvious that we need H30 covered hoppers! As of 1954, these were the most prevalent covered hopper (1,325) and there were more than four times as many of these as the next closest subclass (H32 and H34 each of 300). The drawings show these as "Cement Hoppers". Were they used only for cement? I kind of doubt it. Were they built by the PRR? If not, did any other roads have them? Need a dozen in N scale, please! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 11:31:07 -0400 Subject: [PRR] H30's -- We Need Them! From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <64E69FDC-9F72-11D8-9087-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In looking over the 1954 roster info (see other post), it became painfully obvious that we need H30 covered hoppers! As of 1954, these were the most prevalent covered hopper (1,325) and there were more than four times as many of these as the next closest subclass (H32 and H34 each of 300). The drawings show these as "Cement Hoppers". Were they used only for cement? I kind of doubt it. Were they built by the PRR? If not, did any other roads have them? Need a dozen in N scale, please! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 10:32:56 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] "Caps" in Freight Car Classes From: Bruce Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Thursday, May 6, 2004, at 09:04 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > Can anyone authoritatively comment on the use of capitals in PRR > freight car classes? > > Specifically, I have seen FM flats as either "FM" or "Fm". > > And for hoppers, the GLxx subclasses with the "L" both upper or lower, > as in > Jerry, All caps when lettered on the car, including the subclass, which was a smaller sized stencil. I tend toward all caps when writing the classes in text, when I remember. > > GLa vs. Gla > GLca vs. Glca How about GLA and GLCA Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Convention Photos Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 11:52:50 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Does anyone plan to post photos of the convntion on line, especially the tour layouts? I didn't take pictures this year, wanting to concentrate on the layouts without the distraction, but that may have been a mistake. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 12:03:54 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Photos From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Thursday, May 6, 2004, at 11:52 AM, William Bigler wrote: > Does anyone plan to post photos of the convntion on line, especially > the > tour layouts? I didn't take pictures this year, wanting to concentrate > on > the layouts without the distraction, but that may have been a mistake. I have about 100 pics to post... layouts and the Cincinnati Union Terminal and Tower A. Unfortunately, the [expletive deleted] grass is growing faster than I can cut it!!! Will probably be this weekend yet until I get to it. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 11:15:46 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Photos From: Bruce Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Thursday, May 6, 2004, at 10:52 AM, William Bigler wrote: > Does anyone plan to post photos of the convntion on line, especially > the > tour layouts? I didn't take pictures this year, wanting to concentrate > on > the layouts without the distraction, but that may have been a mistake. Bill, I hope to have a few up tonight I have a bunch from the tours, plus some from the display rooms. BTW, can anyone remind me of a few things about the Museum in Kentucky we visited? I seem to have misplaced my handout! What were the names of the 2 Pullmans right by where we entered? Also, what was the name and contact information for the museum (ie address) Thanx Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Kirkpatrick" Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Photos Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 10:16:04 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Those two Pullmans were: "Jovita" (closest to gate) and "Overdale." Jovita was built 1914 and Overdale built 1928. It's the Railway Museum of Great Cincinnati, P.O. Box 15065, Covington, KY 41015. It was a great meeting, wasn't it?! The presentations were well-done, the Railway Museum was great and the final dinner in the CUT was awesome. I had a great time and thank the Cincinnati group for organizing such a neat event. I'm looking forward to next year in Pa and also hoping to see a meeting in Chicago in the near future..... Doug Kirkpatrick Medford, OR PS After the meeting I did some exploring around southern Ohio and Xenia. I discovered that the South Charleston Heritage Commission group is arranging a charter train trip from South Charleston up to Springfield on the old DT&I track and also to Mechanicsburg and Jeffersonville on May 22. I'd give my eye-teeth to take this trip but can't because I live in Oregon but those of you in the Midwest might want to check it out. (Tel 937-462-7277). > BTW, can anyone remind me of a few things about the Museum in Kentucky > we visited? I seem to have misplaced my handout! What were the names > of the 2 Pullmans right by where we entered? Also, what was the name > and contact information for the museum (ie address) > > Thanx > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 14:33:22 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] 1954 Freight Roster Online In a message dated 5/6/2004 11:47:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: I know I am missing some HO models that I have to dig for -- the Rail Works flats that were released and the Branchline box cars. Jerry, The Branchline cars as X43b, X43c, X44 all in both CK and SK and the GAEX lease cars. Rich Orr -------------------------------1083868402 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

In a message dated 5/6/2004 11:47:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pe= nnsyrr.com writes:

I know I am missing some HO models that I have= to dig for -- the Rail
Works flats that were released and the Branchlin= e box cars.

Jerry,

The Branchline cars as X43b, X43c, X44 all in both CK and SK and the GA= EX lease cars.

Rich Orr

-------------------------------1083868402-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Setting out sleepers Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 18:36:20 +0000 From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Setting out sleepers Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 18:36:20 +0000 From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 14:38:54 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] "Caps" in Freight Car Classes The gray matter isn't up to speed yet. Classes and subclasses are specified in an FRA or AAR (ARA) practice. I have noticed that many roads indiscriminately interchanged upper and lower case lettering for the second letter in the class. The recommended practice was to use caps for the first two letters for the type of car and then lower case after the second letter to specify a subclass. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 -------------------------------1083868734 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

The gray matter isn't up to speed yet. Classes and s= ubclasses are specified in an FRA or AAR (ARA) practice. I have=20= noticed that many roads indiscriminately interchanged upper and lower c= ase lettering for the second letter in the class. The recommended= practice was to use caps for the first two letters for the type of car= and then lower case after the second letter to specify a subclass.

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS 7487
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ 2003<= /DIV> -------------------------------1083868734-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 15:14:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Photos Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 15:01:06 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Setting out sleepers/train consolidation From: Frederick Ripley From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 16:51:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Setting out sleepers/train consolidation X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 46 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 5/6/04 3:18:34 PM, fjr@mchsi.com writes: << The "Pennsy Streamliners" book has some good info about the declining years of passenger service, and in several cases makes the judgement that the RR cut or consolidated a trains with pretty good patronage and not bad financial health (the "Red Arrow" for instance). And on the trains that kept running, one can see the deterioration: dropped sleepers, diner/lounges replaced with snack bar coaches, etc. But clearly the road didn't wholly give up, like SP or probably NYC, and of the east-west fleet at least the "Broadway" and "General" (the "Spirit of St. Louis" seems more questionable- anyone have first hand experience from later years?) provided fine service to the end. >> ************************ Fred - I was based in Cleveland for about 6 months before I was promoted to NYC, in about December, 1963. My fiance lived in Philadelphia (we were married while I was based in Cleveland) and I rode on my Pennsy pass almost every weekend to PHL. There was a late Sunday afternoon train with at least one sleeper and a dining/club car that was set off in Pittsburgh. There was about a two hour lay over in Pittsburgh and I used to go to a spaghetti place a couple of blocks from the station for a bite. The sleeper would couple to the Cleveland train (northbound out of Washington ?) and we'd arrive early in the morning. The deterioration you speak of started, in my mind, about the time I left Cleveland. I took two graduate courses at, then, Western Reserve University and finished the requirements of both before reporting to NYC. My new wife took one graduate course at WRU but had to return to Cleveland to take her final exam. After some analysis, it was evident that it worked better all around if she simply flew United Airlines LGA/CLE/LGA. And, if it was obvious to me that flying was a better alternative, it must have been obvious to a lot of people. I was based at Penn Station in NYC from then to 10/66 when I went to work for American Airlines. In the years I was in Buffalo, Cincinnati, Indianapolis and Cleveland, I went back east frequently, often leaving the office Friday afternoon and catching a westbound train late Sunday afternoon. In those days, Pennsylvania was a dry state and one could not buy a drink on the Pennsy on Sunday on a train in the state of Pennsylvania. Thus, most of us developed the habit, whether we drank or not, of carrying a pint of bourbon to ease the Sunday journey through Pennsylvania. It is a habit that I maintained for many years during my international travel. This liquor issue, however, did not, I believe, harm the Pennsy because passenegr aircraft flying over Pennsylvania on Sundays also had to close the bar. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 16:51:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Setting out sleepers/train consolidation X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 46 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 5/6/04 3:18:34 PM, fjr@mchsi.com writes: << The "Pennsy Streamliners" book has some good info about the declining years of passenger service, and in several cases makes the judgement that the RR cut or consolidated a trains with pretty good patronage and not bad financial health (the "Red Arrow" for instance). And on the trains that kept running, one can see the deterioration: dropped sleepers, diner/lounges replaced with snack bar coaches, etc. But clearly the road didn't wholly give up, like SP or probably NYC, and of the east-west fleet at least the "Broadway" and "General" (the "Spirit of St. Louis" seems more questionable- anyone have first hand experience from later years?) provided fine service to the end. >> ************************ Fred - I was based in Cleveland for about 6 months before I was promoted to NYC, in about December, 1963. My fiance lived in Philadelphia (we were married while I was based in Cleveland) and I rode on my Pennsy pass almost every weekend to PHL. There was a late Sunday afternoon train with at least one sleeper and a dining/club car that was set off in Pittsburgh. There was about a two hour lay over in Pittsburgh and I used to go to a spaghetti place a couple of blocks from the station for a bite. The sleeper would couple to the Cleveland train (northbound out of Washington ?) and we'd arrive early in the morning. The deterioration you speak of started, in my mind, about the time I left Cleveland. I took two graduate courses at, then, Western Reserve University and finished the requirements of both before reporting to NYC. My new wife took one graduate course at WRU but had to return to Cleveland to take her final exam. After some analysis, it was evident that it worked better all around if she simply flew United Airlines LGA/CLE/LGA. And, if it was obvious to me that flying was a better alternative, it must have been obvious to a lot of people. I was based at Penn Station in NYC from then to 10/66 when I went to work for American Airlines. In the years I was in Buffalo, Cincinnati, Indianapolis and Cleveland, I went back east frequently, often leaving the office Friday afternoon and catching a westbound train late Sunday afternoon. In those days, Pennsylvania was a dry state and one could not buy a drink on the Pennsy on Sunday on a train in the state of Pennsylvania. Thus, most of us developed the habit, whether we drank or not, of carrying a pint of bourbon to ease the Sunday journey through Pennsylvania. It is a habit that I maintained for many years during my international travel. This liquor issue, however, did not, I believe, harm the Pennsy because passenegr aircraft flying over Pennsylvania on Sundays also had to close the bar. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] "Caps" in Freight Car Classes Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 18:22:06 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 May 2004 23:36:21.0343 (UTC) FILETIME=[EFD25EF0:01C433C2] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi Y'all As you found out in Cincy, I am far from expert. Kind of like "Brunswick Green" being a PRR designation. Kind of like the Tuscan Red switcher (shifter) controversy several years ago. But, having said that. Why don't we all agree to use what seems like a logical solution until proven otherwise? GLa GLca H9 H9s Until someone who can document otherwise, tells us different. And every time someone asks this question again, for the millionth time, the answer should be as stated. And please don't take offense, those of you who ask this question. A lot of questions come up from time to time that have already been asked and answered. And heaven help us if we become like a well known MR magazine that are such snobs that all they can do is say "the answer is in such and such a book, available from our shipping dept.". Searching archives is fun for me, but I'll bet there are many of us on PRR-Talk that don't have that kind of time to search. Praises to Jerry for his site and it's search ability. Better than a lot. Even Google can be tiresome. LOL This keeps in mind that the class is always capitals, and the sub-class is always small case. Consistency. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, Proud SPF PRRTHS #1204 PS And for those of you who I met in Cincy that think a "Ferroequinologist" should know everything there is to know about a stam engine: No One Knows Everything! --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.677 / Virus Database: 439 - Release Date: 05/04/2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Photos Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 18:24:31 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 May 2004 23:36:22.0734 (UTC) FILETIME=[F0A69EE0:01C433C2] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Unfortunately, Bill, I did the same. I have no pictures to share. Sorry. And for all those that could not attend, you missed a very good convention. Expertly handled by the Cincinnati group. (I was going to write "canaries", but then I thought!) LOL twice Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, Proud SPF PRRTHS #1204 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.677 / Virus Database: 439 - Release Date: 05/04/2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "sdaddio" Subject: Re: [PRR] "Caps" in Freight Car Classes Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 20:43:20 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Caps are an engineering standard on drawings (formerly Blueprints) and would be in the format specs within a drafting procedure manual. These manuals may be company specific or industry specific requirements. Possibly the lower cases were used on the "face" of the drawing (where the "views" are. Depending upon where one sees the designation, it may have been done by non-engineering type personnel (financial?). I would be interested in finding an afore mentioned drafting manual, since I do this as a livelihood. Steve D'Addio ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Smith" To: "Jerry Britton" Cc: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] "Caps" in Freight Car Classes > > On Thursday, May 6, 2004, at 09:04 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > > > Can anyone authoritatively comment on the use of capitals in PRR > > freight car classes? > > > > Specifically, I have seen FM flats as either "FM" or "Fm". > > > > And for hoppers, the GLxx subclasses with the "L" both upper or lower, > > as in > > > Jerry, > > All caps when lettered on the car, including the subclass, which was a > smaller sized stencil. I tend toward all caps when writing the classes > in text, when I remember. > > > > > GLa vs. Gla > > GLca vs. Glca > > How about GLA and GLCA > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicks by mail redux Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 22:01:11 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p5 (Debian) at paonline.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: John, I was also told by an RPO clerk about bees (sometimes many) accumulating on the outsides of the box of bee shipments in RPO cars. He explained that they were not escapees, rather passers-by that were attracted to the queen being shipped with the colony. They would ride along peaceably, until disturbed by a human. These guys were refereed to fittingly, as hoboes. Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 10:03 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicks by mail redux > At one time I kept bees as a hobby; think of having ten thousand or > so faithful pets. Anyway, bees were and probably are regularly > shipped by ordinary mail (first class probably, they can only have > so much food with them, and only in warm weather). You order > them by the pound, by the way. I did get a frantic call from the post > office when they arrived; and a few of the little devils had escaped > and were clinging to the outside of the package. > > This was in Illinois, where Chicago Union Station still has position > light signals (PRR content). > > John Bobsin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] PRR X29's in TKM Vol 1. #8 Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 23:11:52 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I was reading Ben Hom's introduction to the X29 class and noticed an error. In the paragraph under Brake System he says "...cars placed in Express service did receive Ajax power handbrakes." I have a picture of X29 9495 taken in Hew Haven Conn, on 2-2-1954 in REA Express service that still has a vertical staff hand brake. This car also has 2D-F12 coil-elliptic trucks and a Youngstown door. I purchased the picture from Bob's photo's at some point in the past 5 years. Just proves the importance of modeling from photo's when possible. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 23:43:35 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 01:04:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Future Convention Locations Bill Bigler writes... > > I've seen several posts suggesting that conventions west of Pittsburgh > should maybe only be every 5 years or so. I'm curious why so many people seem to > think this. The superb convention in Cincinnati was attended by 338, about > the same number we get at Camp Hill, if memory serves me (dangerous at my age, > of course!). Yes, it's a long drive for we easterners, but hey -- our > eastern conventions are a long drive for the Lines West folks. > > So, in my humble opinion, if another Lines West group wants to host a > convention, why not, regardless of time between trips west? For conventions of > that quality and the fresh information on Lines West, I'd do it again in a > heartbeat! > > Just one SPF's opinion! > > Bill Bigler - 4915 I always enjoy reading Bill's most humble opinions as they usually mirror my own... He uses good common sense! I must apologize for not making the convention this year, first there was a work conflict and then a sudden family issue, even the work issue took a back seat, not generally the case! >From what I have read it sounds like the turnout was at least as good as ex pected, perhaps better... Sounds like those that put it together did a splendid job! I only wish I could have been there. Bet there are others saying the same thing... Well, I hope that the success is enough for these folks to consider hosting another event in the future ... perhaps in Dayton or Columbus??? Perhaps Rick Tipton can give us a run down on whom was responsible for such a well thought out event so we know who to thanks...? And John Wright if you are out there we will meet next year as well as the rest of you all (Yuze Gize). Thanks, Greg Martin --part1_ea.4dc28c45.2dcc72df_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Bill Bigler writes...=

I've seen several posts suggesting that conventions west of Pittsburgh shoul= d maybe only be every 5 years or so. I'm curious why so many people se= em to think this. The superb convention in Cincinnati was attended by=20= 338, about the same number we get at Camp Hill, if memory serves me (dangero= us at my age, of course!). Yes, it's a long drive for we easterners, b= ut hey -- our eastern conventions are a long drive for the Lines West folks.=

So, in my humble opinion, if another Lines West group wants to host a conven= tion, why not, regardless of time between trips west? For conventions=20= of that quality and the fresh information on Lines West, I'd do it again in=20= a heartbeat!

Just one SPF's opinion!

Bill Bigler - 4915

I always enjoy reading Bill's most humble opinions as they usually mirror my= own... He uses good common sense!

I must apologize for not making the convention this year, first there was a=20= work conflict and then a sudden family issue, even the work issue took a bac= k seat, not generally the case!

>From what I have read it sounds like the turnout was at least as good as exp= ected, perhaps better... Sounds like those that put it together did a splend= id job! I only wish I could have been there. Bet there are others saying the= same thing... Well, I hope that the success is enough for these folks to co= nsider hosting another event in the future ... perhaps in Dayton or Columbus= ???

Perhaps Rick Tipton can give us a run down on whom was responsible for such=20= a well thought out event so we know who to thanks...?

And John Wright if you are out there we will meet next year as well as the r= est of you all (Yuze Gize).

Thanks,

Greg Martin
--part1_ea.4dc28c45.2dcc72df_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 08:47:00 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Photos from Cincinnati From: Bruce Smith Message-Id: <03F8E340-A02D-11D8-930E-000A958DAD46@mail.auburn.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Good Morning, I've quickly put some photos up on the web from the annual meeting in Cincinnati. There is no "master page" yet, but I'll try to list them in this email. You can get to a listing of the files by going to: http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/ My sincere apologies if I make an incorrect attribution or mis-spell a name!!! Also, sorry for the file sizes...dial up folks may struggle! MODEL ROOM: Craig Bossler's one-of-a-kind model of the one-of-a-kind G23 http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/G23.JPG Some of Garrett Rea's models, including his PRRPro F30s http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/GarrettRea1.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/GarrettRea2.jpg Bob Chapman's MOW equipment - Bob had a very nice wreck train, and the GPA hopper I've been planning to build (following his article in MM) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/BobChapman1.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/BobChapman2.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/BobChapman3.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/BobChapman4.jpg LAYOUTS: Bob MacKenrick's Wawa diorama, complete with GRA and manure load http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/BobMacKendrick1.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/BobMacKendrick2.jpg Some scenes from Bob's layout http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/BobMacKendrick3.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/BobMacKendrick4.jpg Scene's from Curt LaRue's layout http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/CurtLaRue1.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/CurtLaRue2.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/CurtLaRue3.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/CurtLaRue4.jpg Scene's from Ed Swain's layout - Ed's layout room is so clean, its amazing, as are the display cases of military models in the "crew lounge". Ed had several superdetailed dioramas on the layout. http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/EdSwain1.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/EdSwain2.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/EdSwain3.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/EdSwain4.jpg Scenes from Rick Crumrine's Waynesburg and Washington (featured in GMR 2003) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/WandW1.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/WandW2.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/WandW3.jpg At the Railway Museum of Great Cincinnati,in Covington, KY: Two FGE reefers http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/FGE(58999)1.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/FGE(58999)2.jpg and a shorter car (I missed getting the number) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/FGE3.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/FGE4.jpg Theatrical Scenery car Juliet http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/Juliet1.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/Juliet2.jpg Interior shots http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/Juliet3.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/Juliet4.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/Juliet5.jpg and a complete underbody series http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/Juliet6.jpg through http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/Juliet13.jpg (substitute Juliet7 etc...) Interior shots of a PRR RPO-Baggage http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/RPO1.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/RPO2.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/RPO3.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/RPO4.jpg A PULLMAN 12-1 tourist car "Jovita", with 2 x 16 UC brakes, wood window sashes and no A/C. This folder includes a complete underbody series from both sides as well as window, step and truck detail shots. http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/Jovita/ (this will get you a listing of all the files) A PULLMAN 14 section car "Overdale" (plan 3958A). Detail shots of the windows are included. http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/Overdale/ In addition, I have complete under body series from the museum's B&O I-12 wagon top hack and from a phase I Pullman built 1943 troop sleeper if anyone is interested. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 10:15:02 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <3501579F8815D511AEC6009027CCB5D356C165@HERZOGMGMT> Importance: Normal Return-Path: bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 May 2004 14:06:08.0351 (UTC) FILETIME=[71B3D6F0:01C4343C] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: When I hired out on the PRR in the fall of 1958 it was about a year before the massive reduction and consolidation of passenger trains. Since I had a free annual pass good on everything that ran except the Broadway and the General, and since I was still single, I spent a lot of time over the weekends riding the rails. I am here to tell you that EACH AND EVERY TRAIN in the summer and fall of 1958 was Standing Room Only. I am not exaggerating one bit. Often, in order to get a place to sit I rode through the night in the rear cab of the locomotive. So why, I would ask myself, does/did the PRR have such a penchant to get rid of passenger trains? Also, I might add, the head end traffic on these trains was also enormous. Well, on investigation into the matter, it appeared that the preponderance of the passengers on these trains (which were east-west in nature) were southern blacks who were in the process of migrating from the south to the northern cities and from one northern city to another ostensibly in search of employment. The exact reason for this is not really clear to me, but I believe most of it was due to the rapid mechanization of farming in the south which rendered the sharecroppers surplus. Factories in the north appeared to be hiring at the time, but that situation proved to be only temporary, as the exodus of northern industry had already begun to southern cities as well as Asia. But the real reason that the railroad was losing money on overcrowded passenger trains, I was to find out, was that the railroad had an apparently long standing practice of offering half price tickets to members of clergy and their families. I observed whole coach-loads of "clergy pass holders" offering up transportation to the conductors! They had found a huge loophole in the tariff regulations and were taking advantage of it. To the railroads, it was the old Chinese laundry addage, "No tickee, no washee!" So off came the trains. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Frederick Ripley Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 10:28 PM To: LAMAassoc@aol.com; Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) Marty writes: > There was a late Sunday afternoon train with at least one sleeper and > a dining/club car that was set off in Pittsburgh. There was about a > two hour lay over in Pittsburgh and I used to go to a spaghetti place > a couple of blocks from the station for a bite. The sleeper would > couple to the Cleveland train (northbound out of Washington ?) and > we'd arrive early in the morning. Marty, That's really interesting- seems to be a good example of the sort of consolidation I was speaking of, that preserves service but does so at the expense of added time for layovers and changing trains. The July 1963 PTT shows the "Clevelander", the last remaining Cleveland train, as a separate train only as far as Pittsburgh (arriving EB at 9:25 PM), with a single sleeper picked up by the "General" (leaving at 1:11 AM). Coach passengers had to change cars. A Pittsburgh-Washington sleeper is also listed, but this is a car that is already in the General's consist. That Washington sleeper, by the way, is the remnant of the "Liberty Ltd.", which was discontinued in 1957, with at first a couple of Washington-Chi. sleepers and then just one carried on the General west of Harrisburg. Westbound, the General arrived at Pitts. at 1:21 AM, and a NY-Clev. sleeper and Pitts.-Clev. coaches left at 4:10 AM (5:00 on Sat.). Cleveland service ended entirely in 1964. A few years earlier, the same sort of scenario had played out with Detroit service. In early 1957, there were still two trains each way, the "Red Arrow" and "Detroit Express". By 1958, only the Red Arrow remained, but it still carried several sleepers. Then it was cut back to a connection with the "General" at Crestline, and then discontinued. No doubt patronage was dropping everywhere, but clearly cuts in frequency and convenience, not to mention quality, on "feeder" routes like Cleveland and Detroit accelerated the decline, and made the remaining stubs (Crestline-Detroit, Pittsburgh Cleveland) uneconomical to operate. Best, Fred R. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 10:15:02 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <3501579F8815D511AEC6009027CCB5D356C165@HERZOGMGMT> Importance: Normal Return-Path: bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 May 2004 14:06:08.0351 (UTC) FILETIME=[71B3D6F0:01C4343C] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: When I hired out on the PRR in the fall of 1958 it was about a year before the massive reduction and consolidation of passenger trains. Since I had a free annual pass good on everything that ran except the Broadway and the General, and since I was still single, I spent a lot of time over the weekends riding the rails. I am here to tell you that EACH AND EVERY TRAIN in the summer and fall of 1958 was Standing Room Only. I am not exaggerating one bit. Often, in order to get a place to sit I rode through the night in the rear cab of the locomotive. So why, I would ask myself, does/did the PRR have such a penchant to get rid of passenger trains? Also, I might add, the head end traffic on these trains was also enormous. Well, on investigation into the matter, it appeared that the preponderance of the passengers on these trains (which were east-west in nature) were southern blacks who were in the process of migrating from the south to the northern cities and from one northern city to another ostensibly in search of employment. The exact reason for this is not really clear to me, but I believe most of it was due to the rapid mechanization of farming in the south which rendered the sharecroppers surplus. Factories in the north appeared to be hiring at the time, but that situation proved to be only temporary, as the exodus of northern industry had already begun to southern cities as well as Asia. But the real reason that the railroad was losing money on overcrowded passenger trains, I was to find out, was that the railroad had an apparently long standing practice of offering half price tickets to members of clergy and their families. I observed whole coach-loads of "clergy pass holders" offering up transportation to the conductors! They had found a huge loophole in the tariff regulations and were taking advantage of it. To the railroads, it was the old Chinese laundry addage, "No tickee, no washee!" So off came the trains. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Frederick Ripley Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 10:28 PM To: LAMAassoc@aol.com; Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) Marty writes: > There was a late Sunday afternoon train with at least one sleeper and > a dining/club car that was set off in Pittsburgh. There was about a > two hour lay over in Pittsburgh and I used to go to a spaghetti place > a couple of blocks from the station for a bite. The sleeper would > couple to the Cleveland train (northbound out of Washington ?) and > we'd arrive early in the morning. Marty, That's really interesting- seems to be a good example of the sort of consolidation I was speaking of, that preserves service but does so at the expense of added time for layovers and changing trains. The July 1963 PTT shows the "Clevelander", the last remaining Cleveland train, as a separate train only as far as Pittsburgh (arriving EB at 9:25 PM), with a single sleeper picked up by the "General" (leaving at 1:11 AM). Coach passengers had to change cars. A Pittsburgh-Washington sleeper is also listed, but this is a car that is already in the General's consist. That Washington sleeper, by the way, is the remnant of the "Liberty Ltd.", which was discontinued in 1957, with at first a couple of Washington-Chi. sleepers and then just one carried on the General west of Harrisburg. Westbound, the General arrived at Pitts. at 1:21 AM, and a NY-Clev. sleeper and Pitts.-Clev. coaches left at 4:10 AM (5:00 on Sat.). Cleveland service ended entirely in 1964. A few years earlier, the same sort of scenario had played out with Detroit service. In early 1957, there were still two trains each way, the "Red Arrow" and "Detroit Express". By 1958, only the Red Arrow remained, but it still carried several sleepers. Then it was cut back to a connection with the "General" at Crestline, and then discontinued. No doubt patronage was dropping everywhere, but clearly cuts in frequency and convenience, not to mention quality, on "feeder" routes like Cleveland and Detroit accelerated the decline, and made the remaining stubs (Crestline-Detroit, Pittsburgh Cleveland) uneconomical to operate. Best, Fred R. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 10:07:23 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Steamtown -- Altoona Museum -- 1361 From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Steamtown has announced a suspension of all steam excursions due to skyrocketing insurance costs... http://www.nps.gov/stea/excursion2004.htm Obviously there will be a similar impact on the Altoona Museum if/when K4s #1361 is ever restored to service. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 10:07:23 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Steamtown -- Altoona Museum -- 1361 From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Steamtown has announced a suspension of all steam excursions due to skyrocketing insurance costs... http://www.nps.gov/stea/excursion2004.htm Obviously there will be a similar impact on the Altoona Museum if/when K4s #1361 is ever restored to service. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 07:47:15 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Photos from Cincinnati From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR X29's in TKM Vol 1. #8 Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 14:50:48 +0000 From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] "Caps" in Freight Car Classes Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 15:23:38 +0000 From: b.hom@att.net Subject: [PRR] Bob Chapman's Class GPA Model (was Photos from Cincinnati) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 15:29:19 +0000 From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] H30's -- We Need Them! Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 15:46:52 +0000 From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Photos from Cincinnati Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 10:47:39 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On May 7, 2004, at 9:47 AM, robert netzlof wrote: > --- Bruce Smith wrote: > >> Bob Chapman's MOW equipment - Bob had a very nice wreck train, and >> the >> GPA hopper I've been planning to build (following his article in >> MM) > > The GPA is quite interesting. Could you post the reference to > Mainline Modeler (month? year?). I searched the model trains magazine database at http://index.mrmag.com/ with "Chapman" and found: Modeling Pennsy's GPa Hoppers Mainline Modeler, March 1996 page 56 by Bob Chapman > I daresay, in view of all the cutting and cementing needed to > rearrange the H21 ribs to match the GPA pattern and the attendant > problem of aligning all those bits, it's fortunate that PRR found it > desirable to install that angle iron on the top chord. The article focused on using Westerfield sides, but Bowser sides could be substituted by disassembling the Bowser body. Bob didn't try to slice the ribs off, but cut the panels to include one rib on one side and then sanded them to the narrower size of the GPA panels and glued them back together along with inserting a couple of additional panels. Fortuitously, there are two panel joints that are covered by splice plates, not ribs! A PRRRPro project ??? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-1-410960754 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII On May 7, 2004, at 9:47 AM, robert netzlof wrote: --- Bruce Smith < wrote: Bob Chapman's MOW equipment - Bob had a very nice wreck train, and the GPA hopper I've been planning to build (following his article in MM) The GPA is quite interesting. Could you post the reference to Mainline Modeler (month? year?). 13B0,13B0,13B0I searched the model trains magazine database at http://index.mrmag.com/ with "Chapman" and found: 13B1,13B1,13B1Modeling Pennsy's GPa Hoppers Mainline Modeler, March 1996 page 56 by Bob Chapman I daresay, in view of all the cutting and cementing needed to rearrange the H21 ribs to match the GPA pattern and the attendant problem of aligning all those bits, it's fortunate that PRR found it desirable to install that angle iron on the top chord. The article focused on using Westerfield sides, but Bowser sides could be substituted by disassembling the Bowser body. Bob didn't try to slice the ribs off, but cut the panels to include one rib on one side and then sanded them to the narrower size of the GPA panels and glued them back together along with inserting a couple of additional panels. Fortuitously, there are two panel joints that are covered by splice plates, not ribs! A PRRRPro project <??? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-1-410960754-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] "Caps" in Freight Car Classes Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 16:37:34 +0000 From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 12:17:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] "Caps" in Freight Car Classes Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 11:36:12 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 May 2004 16:50:06.0335 (UTC) FILETIME=[599910F0:01C43453] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi Y'all Thanks Ben. I appreciate your input. Yes, the limitations of eMail can create some problem in lettering. And I defer to your judgment and suggestions. > Morgan's solution is certainly both logical and workable given software limitations; however, everyone needs to be aware that this is NOT the case when we actually letter a car.> The subject of decals is a dreaded one. I have in all my years, never seen any consistency. Mainly because it's noticeable. But not being an expert, and when modeling with no proto picture available - What can one do but rely on the decal manufacturer. Now, we have somewhat of a solution. PRR-Talk! Where one can ask a question, and get some good answers. Not always what one wants to hear, but certainly about as good as having that photo. Thanks to all! Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, Proud SPF PRRTHS #1204 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.677 / Virus Database: 439 - Release Date: 05/04/2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 12:57:07 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) >Subject: train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) >From: "Frederick Ripley" >Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 21:27:45 -0500 Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] H30's -- We Need Them! Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 11:55:13 -0500 To: b.hom@att.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.609) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On May 7, 2004, at 10:46 AM, b.hom@att.net wrote: > Bruce Smith wrote: > "PRR built (although I'm struggling to confirm that), and unique to the > PRR." > > Not entirely true. N&W built copies in Classes HC-1 and HC-2: > http://spec.lib.vt.edu/imagebase/norfolksouthern/full/ns2178.jpeg > http://spec.lib.vt.edu/imagebase/norfolksouthern/full/ns2151.jpeg > > I'll have to confirm if they're H30 or H30A copies - Bob Hundman > published a drawing and short article "Norfolk & Western HC1 Covered > Hopper," Mainline Modeler, March 2001, page 57. Neat! Looks like: H30 outlets (short gate tracks) H30 style roof seams (no overhang) H30 style bolsters (BOTH the A and B end appear to be cast) There is one body difference on the N&W cars and that is that the structural "L" shape over the side stakes is carried to the end of the car body, while BOTH the H30 and H30A only have that shape between the two angled side stakes. A simple detail to add to an H30 model... Oh yeah, are there dashes in N&W car classes? You've got them listed both way above ;^) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: b.hom@att.net From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] H30's -- We Need Them! Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 12:56:29 -0500 To: PRR-Talk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.609) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On May 7, 2004, at 11:55 AM, Bruce Smith wrote: > Oh yeah, are there dashes in N&W car classes? You've got them listed > both way above ;^) I should say that Ben clearly wrote both N&W classes with dashes, while the MM title was sans hyphen...knowing that Ben pays attention to these things, I am assuming that the MM title is incorrect, for now Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 14:54:11 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Greetings to Jerry and the group: This was discussed two weeks ago on the Railway Preservation bulletin board, which is populated with representatives of most of the major museums and tourist railroads. The consensus was that insurance may have been the spin NPS put on it, but that something else may be involved between NPS and the owners of the ex-DL&W main line (a county rail authority). The news release blames the difficulties of obtaining insurance for operating steam on a Class 1 road--but Steamtown does not operate over a Class 1 road. Also, Steamtown is not suspending all steam operations, only its service over the authority-owned trackage. Steam shuttles in the yard at Scranton will continue. To my knowledge, not a single other steam railroad in America has announced suspension of service this season on account of insurance. Ohio Central is planning a huge steam extravaganza for July. For Steamtown, insurance may be a factor, but surely not the only one. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton wrote: > Steamtown has announced a suspension of all steam excursions due to > skyrocketing insurance costs... > > http://www.nps.gov/stea/excursion2004.htm > > Obviously there will be a similar impact on the Altoona Museum if/when > K4s #1361 is ever restored to service. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 15:06:02 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 46 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 5/7/04 12:16:33 PM, thayden@keithley.com writes: << My wife ( girlfriend then) rode a sleeper from Cleveland to NY in the summer of 1964 to the New York World's Fair. I am almost sure she rode the Pennsy ( I think I recall seeing a PRR dinner menu). But she is almost sure she got on the train at Cleveland's Terminal Tower, downtown, and not the PRR station at 55th and Euclid. Is that possible, or likely, that she rode a PRR sleeper from the Terminal Tower to NYC?? >> Tom - When I was working for the Pennsy in Cleveland through about November, 1963, my office was in the Illuminatiing building, right across the street from the downtown station (Terminal Tower?). There was a bar called "The Bunch of Grapes" there where we'd stop once in a while. That is where I got on and off the long haul Pennsy trains. It was also the station for the local commuter train (we lived in Lakewood and took the subway in from Triskett Station). I believe the NYC also used the station. We moved to New York after Cleveland and got a wonderful new apartment in Queens, right off Roosevelt Blvd and the IRT subway (it is elevated in Queens) and that was the line your wife rode to the World's Fair (or, "Feh" as the locals called it). So, she certainly got on the train at the downtown Cleveland station. She either got off at Penn Station or Grand Central Station when she got to New York. The IRT hooks up nicely with Grand Central and not so nicely with Penn Station, as I recall. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 15:17:51 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: [PRR] Re:MS60 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry & List, Do you remember the discussion about the MS60 class? I found a picture of #2542 on page 6 of "Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad". I think it reinforces my statement that this was a separate & distinct class. What do you think? Regards, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 15:17:51 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: [PRR] Re:MS60 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry & List, Do you remember the discussion about the MS60 class? I found a picture of #2542 on page 6 of "Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad". I think it reinforces my statement that this was a separate & distinct class. What do you think? Regards, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 15:29:26 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hmmm - I'm confused (not unusual as age takes over). I grew up in Cleveland and rode many a train out of there during the 50's and early 60's. As I remember it, the PRR trains all came into the Pennsy station at 55th and Euclid. The Terminal Tower served the NYC and NKP, plus the Cleveland and Shaker Heights Rapid Transits. The transit system still uses the terminal, but alas, Amtrak uses a shed along the lakefront. Cleveland Union Terminal electrics pulled the trains through the underground terminal in the steam days while the steam locomotives bypassed the terminal and rejoined their trains on the other side. As I remember, Pennsy used the 55th St. Station until the end of PRR passenger service to Cleveland. Since Cleveland wasn't on the Pennsy mainline, I believe PRR passenger service ended in Cleveland sooner than other places. I suppose it's possible that after that the PRR had an arrangement with NYC or NKP to handle through cars for loading/unloading at Cleveland Union Terminal, but I sure don't remember it. Anyone have enough old timetables and Official Guides to look it up and tell for sure? As an aside, when they tore down the PRR 55th St. Station, my father retrieved some of the huge stone blocks used for the retainin wall to use for a retaining wall along his driveway. I still remember the look on his face when they set one of them in the back of a friend's pick-up truck and the springs bottomed out and the suspension nearly collapsed! Needless to say, they went back and got a bigger truck. Typical of Pennsy, those huge stone blocks were intended to outlast the earth itself! Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 16:00:04 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 46 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 5/7/04 2:49:46 PM, wbigler@stny.rr.com writes: << I'm confused (not unusual as age takes over). I grew up in Cleveland and rode many a train out of there during the 50's and early 60's. As I remember it, the PRR trains all came into the Pennsy station at 55th and Euclid. The Terminal Tower served the NYC and NKP, plus the Cleveland and Shaker Heights Rapid Transits. The transit system still uses the terminal, but alas, Amtrak uses a shed along the lakefront. Cleveland Union Terminal electrics pulled the trains through the underground terminal in the steam days while the steam locomotives bypassed the terminal and rejoined their trains on the other side. As I remember, Pennsy used the 55th St. Station until the end of PRR passenger service to Cleveland. Since Cleveland wasn't on the Pennsy mainline, I believe PRR passenger service ended in Cleveland sooner than other places. I suppose it's possible that after that the PRR had an arrangement with NYC or NKP to handle through cars for loading/unloading at Cleveland Union Terminal, but I sure don't remember it. >> *************** Bill - I told it as I remember it and that was on/off the Pennsy in the dowtown terminal. I can't even picture 55th and Euclid. However, it was more than 40 years ago and I was based in Cleveland less than 6 months, so I'd not bet the farm on my recollection. Anyone have evidence? Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: k4sb@niia.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 21:08:40 -0000 >From: cupper@att.net >Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown >Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 14:54:11 -0400 From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 16:52:38 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Marty - After 40 years, I'm not ready to bet the farm or even a few acres on it! But I did take passenger trains out of CUT on NYC and NKP and out of 55th St. on Pennsy. Those were the days! I moved there in the early '50's when NKP and much of Pennsy was still steam, and NYC was running steam on some passenger and most M&E (mail & express) trains - Hudsons, Niagaras, Mohawks. They really flew on the flat lands east of Cleveland as did the NKP Berkshires with those freights - mostly reefers and stock cars. Bill > > Bill - > > I told it as I remember it and that was on/off the Pennsy in the dowtown > terminal. I can't even picture 55th and Euclid. > > However, it was more than 40 years ago and I was based in Cleveland less than > 6 months, so I'd not bet the farm on my recollection. > > Anyone have evidence? > > Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Kirkpatrick" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown and insurance problems Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 14:37:45 -0700 Hi, All, It may be that no other steam railroad has had to cancel operations due = to insurance problems but in fact the insurance crisis is a major = problem for all railroad-related endeavors and more than one excursion = (steam or otherwise) has had to cancel recently due to this issue. It is = indeed a major problem..... Doug Kirkpatrick Medford, OR ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Dan Cupper" To: "Jerry Britton" Cc: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 11:54 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown > Greetings to Jerry and the group: >=20 > This was discussed two weeks ago on the Railway Preservation bulletin=20 > board, which is populated with representatives of most of the major=20 > museums and tourist railroads. The consensus was that insurance may = have=20 > been the spin NPS put on it, but that something else may be involved=20 > between NPS and the owners of the ex-DL&W main line (a county rail=20 > authority). The news release blames the difficulties of obtaining=20 > insurance for operating steam on a Class 1 road--but Steamtown does = not=20 > operate over a Class 1 road. >=20 > Also, Steamtown is not suspending all steam operations, only its = service=20 > over the authority-owned trackage. Steam shuttles in the yard at=20 > Scranton will continue. >=20 > To my knowledge, not a single other steam railroad in America has=20 > announced suspension of service this season on account of insurance.=20 > Ohio Central is planning a huge steam extravaganza for July. For=20 > Steamtown, insurance may be a factor, but surely not the only one. > ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C43440.DC9FFBC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hi, All,

It may be that no other steam = railroad has=20 had to cancel operations due to insurance problems but in fact the=20 insurance crisis is a major problem for all railroad-related = endeavors and=20 more than one excursion (steam or otherwise) has had to cancel recently = due to=20 this issue. It is indeed a major problem.....

Doug Kirkpatrick

Medford, OR

----- Original Message -----

From: "Dan Cupper" <cupper@att.net>

To: "Jerry Britton" <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

Cc: "PRR-Talk LIST" <prr-talk@dsop.com>

Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 11:54 = AM

Subject: Re: [PRR] = Steamtown

> Greetings to Jerry and the group:
>
> This = was=20 discussed two weeks ago on the Railway Preservation bulletin
> = board,=20 which is populated with representatives of most of the major
> = museums=20 and tourist railroads. The consensus was that insurance may have =
> been=20 the spin NPS put on it, but that something else may be involved
> = between=20 NPS and the owners of the ex-DL&W main line (a county rail
>=20 authority). The news release blames the difficulties of obtaining =
>=20 insurance for operating steam on a Class 1 road--but Steamtown does not =
>=20 operate over a Class 1 road.
>
> Also, Steamtown is not = suspending=20 all steam operations, only its service
> over the authority-owned = trackage. Steam shuttles in the yard at
> Scranton will = continue.
>=20
> To my knowledge, not a single other steam railroad in America = has=20
> announced suspension of service this season on account of = insurance.=20
> Ohio Central is planning a huge steam extravaganza for July. = For=20
> Steamtown, insurance may be a factor, but surely not the only=20 one.
> ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C43440.DC9FFBC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 21:23:07 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Thoughts on Cincinnati and other Lines West conventions In a message dated 5/7/04 1:16:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Future Convention Locations > From: > Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 01:04:31 EDT > > Bill Bigler writes... > > > > >I've seen several posts suggesting that conventions west of Pittsburgh > >should maybe only be every 5 years or so. I'm curious why so many people > seem to > >think this. The superb convention in Cincinnati was attended by 338, about > > >the same number we get at Camp Hill, if memory serves me (dangerous at my > age, > >of course!). Yes, it's a long drive for we easterners, but hey -- our > >eastern conventions are a long drive for the Lines West folks. > > > snip > >Just one SPF's opinion! > > > >Bill Bigler - 4915 > > > I always enjoy reading Bill's most humble opinions as they usually mirror my > > own... He uses good common sense! > > I must apologize for not making the convention this year, first there was a > work conflict and then a sudden family issue, even the work issue took a > back > seat, not generally the case! > > From what I have read it sounds like the turnout was at least as good as ex > pected, perhaps better... Sounds like those that put it together did a > splendid > job! I only wish I could have been there. Bet there are others saying the > same > thing... Well, I hope that the success is enough for these folks to consider > > hosting another event in the future ... perhaps in Dayton or Columbus??? > > Perhaps Rick Tipton can give us a run down on whom was responsible for such > a > well thought out event so we know who to thanks...? > Thanks, > > Greg Martin Well, Greg, 1. You were missed. Looking forward to seeing you next year. 2. As you all know, the Pennsy modelers in Cincinnati are a great bunch of guys. They also are active or retired managers of various things, so I wasn't surprised that they planned smart, worked hard, and avoided unpleasant surprises. This made for a good convention, and convention chair Rick Bailey is just one of the talents that made it so. I'd list everybody involved, but don't want to risk leaving anyone out. Suffice it to say that all the guys in those highly visible canary yellow shirts, with the exception of myself, deserve much praise for their forethought and hard work. I except myself because I spent all the convention preparation time sitting here in Louisville scribbling on the book about Cincinnati. 3. Although much railroading has disappeared in Cincinnati, the city is still a good place to visit for what's left. One example of this is CUT. By a series of miracles over more than 30 years, Cincinnati Union Terminal avoided demolition and eventually won restoration as the city's Museum Center, housing historical, science, and children's museums. In fact, including all the school bus loads of kids, it probably sees lots more foot traffic than at the height of rail traffic there. In any case, there it was, just waiting for our Saturday activities. Between train-watching from Tower A, Dan Finfrock's historical talk on Cincinnati railroading, and the banquet in the rotunda, surrounded by those beautiful mosaic murals, it was an evening to remember. 4. The Cincinnati convention was well attended. I believe the breakeven was set at 225, and the final registration was 338. True, we missed many of our friends from the east -- but the deficit was made up by those members normally too far west to attend a PRRT&HS annual. In fact, the Society picked up a number of new members, who joined in order to come. 5. Concerning a return to Lines West -- we'd all be delighted. A group of us first saw real potential back in 2000, when Tom Vondruska staged a Lines West Fan Fest in Xenia. Up to then, it was an article of faith that the Society would never meet west of Pittsburgh. But that one day Xenia meeting showed us how many Lines West fans there were in the area, and demonstrated email as a tool to build communication among those fans. As a result, the Cincinnati bunch started thinking about what could be done if a convention ever was held in Lines West territory. 6. With the conclusion of Cincinnati's meeting, Chicago is working on some plans for a future convention, and other centers of major Pennsy interest are making rumblings. More conventions are coming. Still, the bulk of Society membership is in the east, and the bulk of conventions will continue there. My guess is that in the future, a) membership in Lines West territory will grow with the number of conventions there b) other Lines West groups will stage conventions that leverage the novelty of Lines West venues c) eventually more of the easterners will accept that occasionally they need to make the arduous trip west. Perhaps the best strategic news at Cincinnati is that passion for the Pennsy is widespread, and that the Society is doing a lot of things right. I was relieved to see that most members attending understand what a magnificent achievement The Keystone Modeler is, and how valuable it has become in representing the Society to those outside our membership. TKM and the Keystone both bring much credit to the Society as representatives of the serious work and attention to quality that characterizes our members, whether prototype fans, historians, or modelers. Fortunately, members seem determined to maintain these worthy efforts, even if faced with a possible dues increase (a straw vote was taken at the annual business meeting). Meantime, this time next year we'll be loading the vans in Cincinnati for the trip to Camp Hill. I hope to see other Lines Western cities doing the same thing. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 20:16:00 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk: F38 flatcars X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-5 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: beth capl caples Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I am modeling the late 1960's and was wondering how the F38's were painted in their last painting (plain keystone). Was the span bolster / end platform painted FCC ? Was the trucks black or FCC? Thanks, John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 21:22:55 EDT Subject: [PRR] A useful X29 exception In a message dated 5/7/04 1:16:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: PRR X29's in TKM Vol 1. #8 > From: "Brian J Carlson" > Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 23:11:52 -0400 > > I was reading Ben Hom's introduction to the X29 class and noticed an error. > In the paragraph under Brake System he says "...cars placed in Express > service did receive Ajax power handbrakes." > > I have a picture of X29 9495 taken in Hew Haven Conn, on 2-2-1954 in REA > Express service that still has a vertical staff hand brake. This car also > has 2D-F12 coil-elliptic trucks and a Youngstown door. I purchased the > picture from Bob's photo's at some point in the past 5 years. > > Just proves the importance of modeling from photo's when possible. > Brian J Carlson P.E. > Cheektowaga NY Brian, Thanks for your citation. I'm assuming this car was in the "Railway Express Agency" variant of CK lettering. Had I been writing Ben's sentence, I would have said the same thing, because I've never noticed an X29 BX conversion that didn't have a power brake. One normally associates an upright brake staff with 1. revenue freight cars -- I have one photo that I took in the 70s of an X29 lettered in SK1b (thus last painted after June 1954) that still retained its brake staff and a rotten wood roof walk. This shot is embalmed in the basement, but IIRC is of a 95xxx series car. 2. work equipment. These X29's typically retained the upright brake staff. BTW, can anyone cite work X29's painted in gray? My impression is that most X29 work cars were converted late enough they were in yellow. This will send us back to restudy our list of known published photos of X29 boxcars modified for AAR Mech Code BX (express box) to see if there are any other upright brake staffs. One wonders if "this is one that got away" from the shops, or if there were others in the same run. Was someone in a huge hurry for the cars? Or could the shops have run low on the desirable power brake, and just not applied it. You probably know that Ben, Bob Johnson, and I are joining forces to produce some detailed rosters for these cars to accompany X29 articles in future Keystones (think perhaps 2006 or later). Thanks for giving us a heads-up on one more feature we need to restudy. And I second your caution -- always model from a photograph. In my early years, I probably made every mistake possible by violating this principle, especially by trusting decal makers' diagrams. Besides, the photo tells you how to weather... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_84.28bfc592.2dcd906f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 5/7/04 1:16:01 A= M Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

Subject: PRR X29's in TKM Vol 1= . #8
From: "Brian J Carlson" <brian@net.bluemoon.net>
Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 23:11:52 -0400

I was reading Ben Hom's introduction to the X29 class and noticed an error.<= BR> In the paragraph under Brake System he says "...cars placed in Express
service did receive Ajax power handbrakes."

I have a picture of X29 9495 taken in Hew Haven Conn, on 2-2-1954 in REA
Express service that still has a vertical staff hand brake. This car a= lso
has 2D-F12 coil-elliptic trucks and a Youngstown door. I purchased the=
picture from Bob's photo's at some point in the past 5 years.

Just proves the importance of modeling from photo's when possible.
Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY

Brian,

Thanks for your citation. I'm assuming this car was in the "Railway Ex= press Agency" variant of CK lettering.

Had I been writing Ben's sentence, I would have said the same thing, because= I've never noticed an X29 BX conversion that didn't have a power brake.&nbs= p; One normally associates an upright brake staff with
1. revenue freight cars -- I have one photo that I took in the 70s of an X29= lettered in SK1b (thus last painted after June 1954) that still retained it= s brake staff and a rotten wood roof walk. This shot is embalmed in th= e basement, but IIRC is of a 95xxx series car.
2. work equipment. These X29's typically retained the upright brake st= aff. BTW, can anyone cite work X29's painted in gray? My impress= ion is that most X29 work cars were converted late enough they were in yello= w.

This will send us back to restudy our list of known published photos of X29= boxcars modified for AAR Mech Code BX (express box) to see if there are any= other upright brake staffs.

One wonders if "this is one that got away" from the shops, or if there were=20= others in the same run. Was someone in a huge hurry for the cars? = ; Or could the shops have run low on the desirable power brake, and just not= applied it.

You probably know that Ben, Bob Johnson, and I are joining forces to produce= some detailed rosters for these cars to accompany X29 articles in future Ke= ystones (think perhaps 2006 or later). Thanks for giving us a heads-up= on one more feature we need to restudy.

And I second your caution -- always model from a photograph. In my ear= ly years, I probably made every mistake possible by violating this principle= , especially by trusting decal makers' diagrams. Besides, the photo te= lls you how to weather...

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_84.28bfc592.2dcd906f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 21:23:07 EDT Subject: [PRR] Thoughts on Cincinnati and other Lines West conventions In a message dated 5/7/04 1:16:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Future Convention Locations > From: > Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 01:04:31 EDT > > Bill Bigler writes... > > > > >I've seen several posts suggesting that conventions west of Pittsburgh > >should maybe only be every 5 years or so. I'm curious why so many people > seem to > >think this. The superb convention in Cincinnati was attended by 338, about > > >the same number we get at Camp Hill, if memory serves me (dangerous at my > age, > >of course!). Yes, it's a long drive for we easterners, but hey -- our > >eastern conventions are a long drive for the Lines West folks. > > > snip > >Just one SPF's opinion! > > > >Bill Bigler - 4915 > > > I always enjoy reading Bill's most humble opinions as they usually mirror my > > own... He uses good common sense! > > I must apologize for not making the convention this year, first there was a > work conflict and then a sudden family issue, even the work issue took a > back > seat, not generally the case! > > From what I have read it sounds like the turnout was at least as good as ex > pected, perhaps better... Sounds like those that put it together did a > splendid > job! I only wish I could have been there. Bet there are others saying the > same > thing... Well, I hope that the success is enough for these folks to consider > > hosting another event in the future ... perhaps in Dayton or Columbus??? > > Perhaps Rick Tipton can give us a run down on whom was responsible for such > a > well thought out event so we know who to thanks...? > Thanks, > > Greg Martin Well, Greg, 1. You were missed. Looking forward to seeing you next year. 2. As you all know, the Pennsy modelers in Cincinnati are a great bunch of guys. They also are active or retired managers of various things, so I wasn't surprised that they planned smart, worked hard, and avoided unpleasant surprises. This made for a good convention, and convention chair Rick Bailey is just one of the talents that made it so. I'd list everybody involved, but don't want to risk leaving anyone out. Suffice it to say that all the guys in those highly visible canary yellow shirts, with the exception of myself, deserve much praise for their forethought and hard work. I except myself because I spent all the convention preparation time sitting here in Louisville scribbling on the book about Cincinnati. 3. Although much railroading has disappeared in Cincinnati, the city is still a good place to visit for what's left. One example of this is CUT. By a series of miracles over more than 30 years, Cincinnati Union Terminal avoided demolition and eventually won restoration as the city's Museum Center, housing historical, science, and children's museums. In fact, including all the school bus loads of kids, it probably sees lots more foot traffic than at the height of rail traffic there. In any case, there it was, just waiting for our Saturday activities. Between train-watching from Tower A, Dan Finfrock's historical talk on Cincinnati railroading, and the banquet in the rotunda, surrounded by those beautiful mosaic murals, it was an evening to remember. 4. The Cincinnati convention was well attended. I believe the breakeven was set at 225, and the final registration was 338. True, we missed many of our friends from the east -- but the deficit was made up by those members normally too far west to attend a PRRT&HS annual. In fact, the Society picked up a number of new members, who joined in order to come. 5. Concerning a return to Lines West -- we'd all be delighted. A group of us first saw real potential back in 2000, when Tom Vondruska staged a Lines West Fan Fest in Xenia. Up to then, it was an article of faith that the Society would never meet west of Pittsburgh. But that one day Xenia meeting showed us how many Lines West fans there were in the area, and demonstrated email as a tool to build communication among those fans. As a result, the Cincinnati bunch started thinking about what could be done if a convention ever was held in Lines West territory. 6. With the conclusion of Cincinnati's meeting, Chicago is working on some plans for a future convention, and other centers of major Pennsy interest are making rumblings. More conventions are coming. Still, the bulk of Society membership is in the east, and the bulk of conventions will continue there. My guess is that in the future, a) membership in Lines West territory will grow with the number of conventions there b) other Lines West groups will stage conventions that leverage the novelty of Lines West venues c) eventually more of the easterners will accept that occasionally they need to make the arduous trip west. Perhaps the best strategic news at Cincinnati is that passion for the Pennsy is widespread, and that the Society is doing a lot of things right. I was relieved to see that most members attending understand what a magnificent achievement The Keystone Modeler is, and how valuable it has become in representing the Society to those outside our membership. TKM and the Keystone both bring much credit to the Society as representatives of the serious work and attention to quality that characterizes our members, whether prototype fans, historians, or modelers. Fortunately, members seem determined to maintain these worthy efforts, even if faced with a possible dues increase (a straw vote was taken at the annual business meeting). Meantime, this time next year we'll be loading the vans in Cincinnati for the trip to Camp Hill. I hope to see other Lines Western cities doing the same thing. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_130.2ea78764.2dcd907b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 5/7/04 1:16:01 A= M Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

Subject: Re: [PRR] Future Conve= ntion Locations
From: <TGREGMRTN@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 01:04:31 EDT

Bill Bigler writes...

>
>I've seen several posts suggesting that conventions west of Pittsburgh <= BR> >should maybe only be every 5 years or so. I'm curious why so many=20= people seem to
>think this. The superb convention in Cincinnati was attended by 33= 8, about
>the same number we get at Camp Hill, if memory serves me (dangerous at m= y age,
>of course!). Yes, it's a long drive for we easterners, but hey --=20= our
>eastern conventions are a long drive for the Lines West folks.
>
snip
>Just one SPF's opinion!
>
>Bill Bigler - 4915

I always enjoy reading Bill's most humble opinions as they usually mirror my=
own... He uses good common sense!

I must apologize for not making the convention this year, first there was a=20=
work conflict and then a sudden family issue, even the work issue took a bac= k
seat, not generally the case!

>From what I have read it sounds like the turnout was at least as good as ex<= BR> pected, perhaps better... Sounds like those that put it together did a splen= did
job! I only wish I could have been there. Bet there are others saying the sa= me
thing... Well, I hope that the success is enough for these folks to consider=
hosting another event in the future ... perhaps in Dayton or Columbus???&nbs= p;

Perhaps Rick Tipton can give us a run down on whom was responsible for such=20= a
well thought out event so we know who to thanks...?
Thanks,

Greg Martin

Well, Greg,
1. You were missed. Looking forward to seeing you next year.
2. As you all know, the Pennsy modelers in Cincinnati are a great bunc= h of guys. They also are active or retired managers of various things,= so I wasn't surprised that they planned smart, worked hard, and avoided unp= leasant surprises. This made for a good convention, and convention cha= ir Rick Bailey is just one of the talents that made it so. I'd list ev= erybody involved, but don't want to risk leaving anyone out. Suffice i= t to say that all the guys in those highly visible canary yellow shirts, wit= h the exception of myself, deserve much praise for their forethought and har= d work. I except myself because I spent all the convention preparation= time sitting here in Louisville scribbling on the book about Cincinnati. 3. Although much railroading has disappeared in Cincinnati, the city i= s still a good place to visit for what's left. One example of this is=20= CUT. By a series of miracles over more than 30 years, Cincinnati Union= Terminal avoided demolition and eventually won restoration as the city's Mu= seum Center, housing historical, science, and children's museums. In f= act, including all the school bus loads of kids, it probably sees lots more=20= foot traffic than at the height of rail traffic there. In any case, th= ere it was, just waiting for our Saturday activities. Between train-wa= tching from Tower A, Dan Finfrock's historical talk on Cincinnati railroadin= g, and the banquet in the rotunda, surrounded by those beautiful mosaic mura= ls, it was an evening to remember.
4. The Cincinnati convention was well attended. I believe the br= eakeven was set at 225, and the final registration was 338. True, we m= issed many of our friends from the east -- but the deficit was made up by th= ose members normally too far west to attend a PRRT&HS annual. In f= act, the Society picked up a number of new members, who joined in order to c= ome.
5. Concerning a return to Lines West -- we'd all be delighted. A= group of us first saw real potential back in 2000, when Tom Vondruska stage= d a Lines West Fan Fest in Xenia. Up to then, it was an article of fai= th that the Society would never meet west of Pittsburgh. But that one=20= day Xenia meeting showed us how many Lines West fans there were in the area,= and demonstrated email as a tool to build communication among those fans.&n= bsp; As a result, the Cincinnati bunch started thinking about what could be=20= done if a convention ever was held in Lines West territory.
6. With the conclusion of Cincinnati's meeting, Chicago is working on=20= some plans for a future convention, and other centers of major Pennsy intere= st are making rumblings. More conventions are coming. Still, the= bulk of Society membership is in the east, and the bulk of conventions will= continue there. My guess is that in the future, a) membership in Line= s West territory will grow with the number of conventions there b) oth= er Lines West groups will stage conventions that leverage the novelty of Lin= es West venues c) eventually more of the easterners will accept that o= ccasionally they need to make the arduous trip west.

Perhaps the best strategic news at Cincinnati is that passion for the Pennsy= is widespread, and that the Society is doing a lot of things right. I= was relieved to see that most members attending understand what a magnifice= nt achievement The Keystone Modeler is, and how valuable it has become in re= presenting the Society to those outside our membership. TKM and the Ke= ystone both bring much credit to the Society as representatives of the serio= us work and attention to quality that characterizes our members, whether pro= totype fans, historians, or modelers. Fortunately, members seem determ= ined to maintain these worthy efforts, even if faced with a possible dues in= crease (a straw vote was taken at the annual business meeting).

Meantime, this time next year we'll be loading the vans in Cincinnati for th= e trip to Camp Hill. I hope to see other Lines Western cities doing th= e same thing.

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_130.2ea78764.2dcd907b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 21:23:07 EDT Subject: [PRR] Thoughts on Cincinnati and other Lines West conventions In a message dated 5/7/04 1:16:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Future Convention Locations > From: > Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 01:04:31 EDT > > Bill Bigler writes... > > > > >I've seen several posts suggesting that conventions west of Pittsburgh > >should maybe only be every 5 years or so. I'm curious why so many people > seem to > >think this. The superb convention in Cincinnati was attended by 338, about > > >the same number we get at Camp Hill, if memory serves me (dangerous at my > age, > >of course!). Yes, it's a long drive for we easterners, but hey -- our > >eastern conventions are a long drive for the Lines West folks. > > > snip > >Just one SPF's opinion! > > > >Bill Bigler - 4915 > > > I always enjoy reading Bill's most humble opinions as they usually mirror my > > own... He uses good common sense! > > I must apologize for not making the convention this year, first there was a > work conflict and then a sudden family issue, even the work issue took a > back > seat, not generally the case! > > From what I have read it sounds like the turnout was at least as good as ex > pected, perhaps better... Sounds like those that put it together did a > splendid > job! I only wish I could have been there. Bet there are others saying the > same > thing... Well, I hope that the success is enough for these folks to consider > > hosting another event in the future ... perhaps in Dayton or Columbus??? > > Perhaps Rick Tipton can give us a run down on whom was responsible for such > a > well thought out event so we know who to thanks...? > Thanks, > > Greg Martin Well, Greg, 1. You were missed. Looking forward to seeing you next year. 2. As you all know, the Pennsy modelers in Cincinnati are a great bunch of guys. They also are active or retired managers of various things, so I wasn't surprised that they planned smart, worked hard, and avoided unpleasant surprises. This made for a good convention, and convention chair Rick Bailey is just one of the talents that made it so. I'd list everybody involved, but don't want to risk leaving anyone out. Suffice it to say that all the guys in those highly visible canary yellow shirts, with the exception of myself, deserve much praise for their forethought and hard work. I except myself because I spent all the convention preparation time sitting here in Louisville scribbling on the book about Cincinnati. 3. Although much railroading has disappeared in Cincinnati, the city is still a good place to visit for what's left. One example of this is CUT. By a series of miracles over more than 30 years, Cincinnati Union Terminal avoided demolition and eventually won restoration as the city's Museum Center, housing historical, science, and children's museums. In fact, including all the school bus loads of kids, it probably sees lots more foot traffic than at the height of rail traffic there. In any case, there it was, just waiting for our Saturday activities. Between train-watching from Tower A, Dan Finfrock's historical talk on Cincinnati railroading, and the banquet in the rotunda, surrounded by those beautiful mosaic murals, it was an evening to remember. 4. The Cincinnati convention was well attended. I believe the breakeven was set at 225, and the final registration was 338. True, we missed many of our friends from the east -- but the deficit was made up by those members normally too far west to attend a PRRT&HS annual. In fact, the Society picked up a number of new members, who joined in order to come. 5. Concerning a return to Lines West -- we'd all be delighted. A group of us first saw real potential back in 2000, when Tom Vondruska staged a Lines West Fan Fest in Xenia. Up to then, it was an article of faith that the Society would never meet west of Pittsburgh. But that one day Xenia meeting showed us how many Lines West fans there were in the area, and demonstrated email as a tool to build communication among those fans. As a result, the Cincinnati bunch started thinking about what could be done if a convention ever was held in Lines West territory. 6. With the conclusion of Cincinnati's meeting, Chicago is working on some plans for a future convention, and other centers of major Pennsy interest are making rumblings. More conventions are coming. Still, the bulk of Society membership is in the east, and the bulk of conventions will continue there. My guess is that in the future, a) membership in Lines West territory will grow with the number of conventions there b) other Lines West groups will stage conventions that leverage the novelty of Lines West venues c) eventually more of the easterners will accept that occasionally they need to make the arduous trip west. Perhaps the best strategic news at Cincinnati is that passion for the Pennsy is widespread, and that the Society is doing a lot of things right. I was relieved to see that most members attending understand what a magnificent achievement The Keystone Modeler is, and how valuable it has become in representing the Society to those outside our membership. TKM and the Keystone both bring much credit to the Society as representatives of the serious work and attention to quality that characterizes our members, whether prototype fans, historians, or modelers. Fortunately, members seem determined to maintain these worthy efforts, even if faced with a possible dues increase (a straw vote was taken at the annual business meeting). Meantime, this time next year we'll be loading the vans in Cincinnati for the trip to Camp Hill. I hope to see other Lines Western cities doing the same thing. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_130.2ea78764.2dcd907b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 5/7/04 1:16:01 A= M Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

Subject: Re: [PRR] Future Conve= ntion Locations
From: <TGREGMRTN@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 01:04:31 EDT

Bill Bigler writes...

>
>I've seen several posts suggesting that conventions west of Pittsburgh <= BR> >should maybe only be every 5 years or so. I'm curious why so many=20= people seem to
>think this. The superb convention in Cincinnati was attended by 33= 8, about
>the same number we get at Camp Hill, if memory serves me (dangerous at m= y age,
>of course!). Yes, it's a long drive for we easterners, but hey --=20= our
>eastern conventions are a long drive for the Lines West folks.
>
snip
>Just one SPF's opinion!
>
>Bill Bigler - 4915

I always enjoy reading Bill's most humble opinions as they usually mirror my=
own... He uses good common sense!

I must apologize for not making the convention this year, first there was a=20=
work conflict and then a sudden family issue, even the work issue took a bac= k
seat, not generally the case!

>From what I have read it sounds like the turnout was at least as good as ex<= BR> pected, perhaps better... Sounds like those that put it together did a splen= did
job! I only wish I could have been there. Bet there are others saying the sa= me
thing... Well, I hope that the success is enough for these folks to consider=
hosting another event in the future ... perhaps in Dayton or Columbus???&nbs= p;

Perhaps Rick Tipton can give us a run down on whom was responsible for such=20= a
well thought out event so we know who to thanks...?
Thanks,

Greg Martin

Rick,

Your own analysis omitted one pertinent = fact. One=20 of the highlights of the convention was the appearance of your=20 (and Chuck's) fantastic book on the Pennsy in=20 Cincinnati. Congratulations on a fine piece of work! I've been = enjoying=20 mine immensely and will continue to do so indefinitely. Thank = you!

Doug Kirkpatrick

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 RickTipton@aol.com

To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com= ; PRR@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 6:23 = PM

Subject: [PRR] Thoughts on = Cincinnati and=20 other Lines West conventions

Well, Greg,
1.=20 You were missed. Looking forward to seeing you next = year.
2. As=20 you all know, the Pennsy modelers in Cincinnati are a great bunch of=20 guys. They also are active or retired managers of various = things, so I=20 wasn't surprised that they planned smart, worked hard, and avoided = unpleasant=20 surprises. This made for a good convention, and convention chair = Rick=20 Bailey is just one of the talents that made it so. I'd list = everybody=20 involved, but don't want to risk leaving anyone out. Suffice it = to say=20 that all the guys in those highly visible canary yellow shirts, with = the=20 exception of myself, deserve much praise for their forethought and = hard=20 work. I except myself because I spent all the convention = preparation=20 time sitting here in Louisville scribbling on the book about=20 Cincinnati.
3. Although much railroading has disappeared in=20 Cincinnati, the city is still a good place to visit for what's = left. One=20 example of this is CUT. By a series of miracles over more than = 30 years,=20 Cincinnati Union Terminal avoided demolition and eventually won = restoration as=20 the city's Museum Center, housing historical, science, and children's=20 museums. In fact, including all the school bus loads of kids, it = probably sees lots more foot traffic than at the height of rail = traffic=20 there. In any case, there it was, just waiting for our Saturday=20 activities. Between train-watching from Tower A, Dan Finfrock's=20 historical talk on Cincinnati railroading, and the banquet in the = rotunda,=20 surrounded by those beautiful mosaic murals,=20 it ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C43465.9393BA50-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 22:45:15 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Bill and Marty. Another refugee from Cleveland surfaces....I was the rate clerk for the PRR in Cleveland from April to December 1964. It was during that time that the last passenger train ran. I reported to Cleveland from New Orleans by taking the Panama Limtied on the IC to St. Louis, met with the Sales Manager-Southwestern States, then boarded the PRR that afternoon to Pittsburgh, where I had to wait until the middle of the night to board the sleeper to Cleveland. Could not sleep because the damn porter chewed my ear off about the "bad old PRR" when he saw my pass. The train defintely terminated at 55th and Euclid, PRR had discontinued going to the old lakefront depot years before. PRR had no direct access into CUT, the PRR main passed under the CUT trackage. The Ohio PSC did a study the summer of 1964 of the train. There were 54 daily riders, of which 52 rode on PRR passes.. The other two used E-L passes! (I don't really know that, only that 52 were PRR deadheads) When I was transferred to Baltimore as a Sales Rep. just before Christmas (PRR was good at that sort of thing), my wife had to drive me to Canton to catch the train to Baltimore as the "Clevelander' was already gone.. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Bigler" To: ; Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) > Marty - After 40 years, I'm not ready to bet the farm or even a few acres on > it! But I did take passenger trains out of CUT on NYC and NKP and out of > 55th St. on Pennsy. Those were the days! I moved there in the early '50's > when NKP and much of Pennsy was still steam, and NYC was running steam on > some passenger and most M&E (mail & express) trains - Hudsons, Niagaras, > Mohawks. They really flew on the flat lands east of Cleveland as did the > NKP Berkshires with those freights - mostly reefers and stock cars. > > Bill > > > > Bill - > > > > I told it as I remember it and that was on/off the Pennsy in the dowtown > > terminal. I can't even picture 55th and Euclid. > > > > However, it was more than 40 years ago and I was based in Cleveland less > than > > 6 months, so I'd not bet the farm on my recollection. > > > > Anyone have evidence? > > > > Regards, Marty > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 20:23:51 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Photos from Cincinnati From: "Fred in Vt." Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:MS60 Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 23:51:48 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi Doc, A while back I picked up a copy of a May/ 1920 make up of pass. trains. This list shows the following: M70-----steel postal car MS60---steel storage car ML------wood storage car Mm-----wood letter car PS------wood postal storage BG60---wood baggage Exp-----express car [ no other ID ] BO-----40'-6" bag/ or/ exp cars The fate of the wooden cars should be obvious, what is not, is the continued use of the steel cars. Rebuildings were plentifull, so it's back to the resource books again. Sent a couple pages of this to Jerry, and it gave him a migraine trying to cross reference all the items. If you like I will be glad to send you pages of interest. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" To: "Jerry Britton" ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 3:17 PM Subject: [PRR] Re:MS60 > > > Jerry & List, > > Do you remember the discussion about the MS60 class? I found a picture of > #2542 on > > page 6 of "Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad". I think it reinforces my > statement that this > > was a separate & distinct class. What do you think? > > Regards, > > Eddie > > Dr. Edmond L. Freed > PRRT&HS # 156 > Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred in Vt." Subject: [PRR] Re: [PennsyWest] Thoughts on Cincinnati and other Lines Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 00:18:31 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Having read Rick's message on the convention, I now have an even greater dislike for the neurosurgeons who scheduled their fun, in place of mine ,on the convention weekend !! Such is life. It is great to hear of the success, by ALL parties, that 338 members enjoyed, learned, and appreciated all that the Cincy group was able to combine for the event. It is encouraging to hear that we are recruiting new members, we need them. Cudos to ALL who planned & executed the meeting, only wish I could have been there. Thanks for keeping the homebound informed. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 9:23 PM Subject: [PennsyWest] Thoughts on Cincinnati and other Lines West conventions > In a message dated 5/7/04 1:16:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com > writes: > > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Future Convention Locations > > From: > > Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 01:04:31 EDT > > > > Bill Bigler writes... > > > > > > > >I've seen several posts suggesting that conventions west of Pittsburgh > > >should maybe only be every 5 years or so. I'm curious why so many people > > seem to > > >think this. The superb convention in Cincinnati was attended by 338, about > > > > >the same number we get at Camp Hill, if memory serves me (dangerous at my > > age, > > >of course!). Yes, it's a long drive for we easterners, but hey -- our > > >eastern conventions are a long drive for the Lines West folks. > > > > > snip > > >Just one SPF's opinion! > > > > > >Bill Bigler - 4915 > > > > > > I always enjoy reading Bill's most humble opinions as they usually mirror my > > > > own... He uses good common sense! > > > > I must apologize for not making the convention this year, first there was a > > work conflict and then a sudden family issue, even the work issue took a > > back > > seat, not generally the case! > > > > From what I have read it sounds like the turnout was at least as good as ex > > pected, perhaps better... Sounds like those that put it together did a > > splendid > > job! I only wish I could have been there. Bet there are others saying the > > same > > thing... Well, I hope that the success is enough for these folks to consider > > > > hosting another event in the future ... perhaps in Dayton or Columbus??? > > > > Perhaps Rick Tipton can give us a run down on whom was responsible for such > > a > > well thought out event so we know who to thanks...? > > Thanks, > > > > Greg Martin > > Well, Greg, > 1. You were missed. Looking forward to seeing you next year. > 2. As you all know, the Pennsy modelers in Cincinnati are a great bunch of > guys. They also are active or retired managers of various things, so I wasn't > surprised that they planned smart, worked hard, and avoided unpleasant > surprises. This made for a good convention, and convention chair Rick Bailey is just > one of the talents that made it so. I'd list everybody involved, but don't > want to risk leaving anyone out. Suffice it to say that all the guys in those > highly visible canary yellow shirts, with the exception of myself, deserve > much praise for their forethought and hard work. I except myself because I spent > all the convention preparation time sitting here in Louisville scribbling on > the book about Cincinnati. > 3. Although much railroading has disappeared in Cincinnati, the city is > still a good place to visit for what's left. One example of this is CUT. By a > series of miracles over more than 30 years, Cincinnati Union Terminal avoided > demolition and eventually won restoration as the city's Museum Center, housing > historical, science, and children's museums. In fact, including all the school > bus loads of kids, it probably sees lots more foot traffic than at the height > of rail traffic there. In any case, there it was, just waiting for our > Saturday activities. Between train-watching from Tower A, Dan Finfrock's > historical talk on Cincinnati railroading, and the banquet in the rotunda, surrounded > by those beautiful mosaic murals, it was an evening to remember. > 4. The Cincinnati convention was well attended. I believe the breakeven was > set at 225, and the final registration was 338. True, we missed many of our > friends from the east -- but the deficit was made up by those members normally > too far west to attend a PRRT&HS annual. In fact, the Society picked up a > number of new members, who joined in order to come. > 5. Concerning a return to Lines West -- we'd all be delighted. A group of > us first saw real potential back in 2000, when Tom Vondruska staged a Lines > West Fan Fest in Xenia. Up to then, it was an article of faith that the Society > would never meet west of Pittsburgh. But that one day Xenia meeting showed us > how many Lines West fans there were in the area, and demonstrated email as a > tool to build communication among those fans. As a result, the Cincinnati > bunch started thinking about what could be done if a convention ever was held in > Lines West territory. > 6. With the conclusion of Cincinnati's meeting, Chicago is working on some > plans for a future convention, and other centers of major Pennsy interest are > making rumblings. More conventions are coming. Still, the bulk of Society > membership is in the east, and the bulk of conventions will continue there. My > guess is that in the future, a) membership in Lines West territory will grow > with the number of conventions there b) other Lines West groups will stage > conventions that leverage the novelty of Lines West venues c) eventually more of > the easterners will accept that occasionally they need to make the arduous > trip west. > > Perhaps the best strategic news at Cincinnati is that passion for the Pennsy > is widespread, and that the Society is doing a lot of things right. I was > relieved to see that most members attending understand what a magnificent > achievement The Keystone Modeler is, and how valuable it has become in representing > the Society to those outside our membership. TKM and the Keystone both bring > much credit to the Society as representatives of the serious work and attention > to quality that characterizes our members, whether prototype fans, > historians, or modelers. Fortunately, members seem determined to maintain these worthy > efforts, even if faced with a possible dues increase (a straw vote was taken > at the annual business meeting). > > Meantime, this time next year we'll be loading the vans in Cincinnati for the > trip to Camp Hill. I hope to see other Lines Western cities doing the same > thing. > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society > Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> > Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 > http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/8ZCslB/TM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PennsyWest/ > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > PennsyWest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred in Vt." Subject: [PRR] Re: [PennsyWest] Thoughts on Cincinnati and other Lines Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 00:18:31 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Having read Rick's message on the convention, I now have an even greater dislike for the neurosurgeons who scheduled their fun, in place of mine ,on the convention weekend !! Such is life. It is great to hear of the success, by ALL parties, that 338 members enjoyed, learned, and appreciated all that the Cincy group was able to combine for the event. It is encouraging to hear that we are recruiting new members, we need them. Cudos to ALL who planned & executed the meeting, only wish I could have been there. Thanks for keeping the homebound informed. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 9:23 PM Subject: [PennsyWest] Thoughts on Cincinnati and other Lines West conventions > In a message dated 5/7/04 1:16:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com > writes: > > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Future Convention Locations > > From: > > Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 01:04:31 EDT > > > > Bill Bigler writes... > > > > > > > >I've seen several posts suggesting that conventions west of Pittsburgh > > >should maybe only be every 5 years or so. I'm curious why so many people > > seem to > > >think this. The superb convention in Cincinnati was attended by 338, about > > > > >the same number we get at Camp Hill, if memory serves me (dangerous at my > > age, > > >of course!). Yes, it's a long drive for we easterners, but hey -- our > > >eastern conventions are a long drive for the Lines West folks. > > > > > snip > > >Just one SPF's opinion! > > > > > >Bill Bigler - 4915 > > > > > > I always enjoy reading Bill's most humble opinions as they usually mirror my > > > > own... He uses good common sense! > > > > I must apologize for not making the convention this year, first there was a > > work conflict and then a sudden family issue, even the work issue took a > > back > > seat, not generally the case! > > > > From what I have read it sounds like the turnout was at least as good as ex > > pected, perhaps better... Sounds like those that put it together did a > > splendid > > job! I only wish I could have been there. Bet there are others saying the > > same > > thing... Well, I hope that the success is enough for these folks to consider > > > > hosting another event in the future ... perhaps in Dayton or Columbus??? > > > > Perhaps Rick Tipton can give us a run down on whom was responsible for such > > a > > well thought out event so we know who to thanks...? > > Thanks, > > > > Greg Martin > > Well, Greg, > 1. You were missed. Looking forward to seeing you next year. > 2. As you all know, the Pennsy modelers in Cincinnati are a great bunch of > guys. They also are active or retired managers of various things, so I wasn't > surprised that they planned smart, worked hard, and avoided unpleasant > surprises. This made for a good convention, and convention chair Rick Bailey is just > one of the talents that made it so. I'd list everybody involved, but don't > want to risk leaving anyone out. Suffice it to say that all the guys in those > highly visible canary yellow shirts, with the exception of myself, deserve > much praise for their forethought and hard work. I except myself because I spent > all the convention preparation time sitting here in Louisville scribbling on > the book about Cincinnati. > 3. Although much railroading has disappeared in Cincinnati, the city is > still a good place to visit for what's left. One example of this is CUT. By a > series of miracles over more than 30 years, Cincinnati Union Terminal avoided > demolition and eventually won restoration as the city's Museum Center, housing > historical, science, and children's museums. In fact, including all the school > bus loads of kids, it probably sees lots more foot traffic than at the height > of rail traffic there. In any case, there it was, just waiting for our > Saturday activities. Between train-watching from Tower A, Dan Finfrock's > historical talk on Cincinnati railroading, and the banquet in the rotunda, surrounded > by those beautiful mosaic murals, it was an evening to remember. > 4. The Cincinnati convention was well attended. I believe the breakeven was > set at 225, and the final registration was 338. True, we missed many of our > friends from the east -- but the deficit was made up by those members normally > too far west to attend a PRRT&HS annual. In fact, the Society picked up a > number of new members, who joined in order to come. > 5. Concerning a return to Lines West -- we'd all be delighted. A group of > us first saw real potential back in 2000, when Tom Vondruska staged a Lines > West Fan Fest in Xenia. Up to then, it was an article of faith that the Society > would never meet west of Pittsburgh. But that one day Xenia meeting showed us > how many Lines West fans there were in the area, and demonstrated email as a > tool to build communication among those fans. As a result, the Cincinnati > bunch started thinking about what could be done if a convention ever was held in > Lines West territory. > 6. With the conclusion of Cincinnati's meeting, Chicago is working on some > plans for a future convention, and other centers of major Pennsy interest are > making rumblings. More conventions are coming. Still, the bulk of Society > membership is in the east, and the bulk of conventions will continue there. My > guess is that in the future, a) membership in Lines West territory will grow > with the number of conventions there b) other Lines West groups will stage > conventions that leverage the novelty of Lines West venues c) eventually more of > the easterners will accept that occasionally they need to make the arduous > trip west. > > Perhaps the best strategic news at Cincinnati is that passion for the Pennsy > is widespread, and that the Society is doing a lot of things right. I was > relieved to see that most members attending understand what a magnificent > achievement The Keystone Modeler is, and how valuable it has become in representing > the Society to those outside our membership. TKM and the Keystone both bring > much credit to the Society as representatives of the serious work and attention > to quality that characterizes our members, whether prototype fans, > historians, or modelers. Fortunately, members seem determined to maintain these worthy > efforts, even if faced with a possible dues increase (a straw vote was taken > at the annual business meeting). > > Meantime, this time next year we'll be loading the vans in Cincinnati for the > trip to Camp Hill. I hope to see other Lines Western cities doing the same > thing. > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society > Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> > Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 > http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/8ZCslB/TM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PennsyWest/ > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > PennsyWest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" , From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:MS60 Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 10:58:25 -0400 To: "Fred in Vt." X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On May 7, 2004, at 11:51 PM, Fred in Vt. wrote: > A while back I picked up a copy of a May/ 1920 make up of > pass. > trains. This list shows the following: > MS60---steel storage car Yes, back then there was an actual MS60 car. Later it was a categorization. I have an original PRR passenger equipment roster from 1923 which will be put online at some point. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 11:35:12 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry & Listers, Was surprised and more than a bit upset that Steamtown won't be running steam. As Jerry or someone surmised, it seems like there must be more to it than just the insurance issue. Does anyone know for sure who is and who isn't running steam this summer? As I remember, SP 4449, SP&S 700, UP engines, and MLW 261 probably won't run because of insurance issues, but I haven't heard any final word. From what I can surmise, Ohio Central is running, along with museum operations such as Cass, Strassburg, Nevada Northern, etc. As someone mentioned, the issue may be running on Class 1 railroads. However, from an insurance standpoint, why should this be different from running anywhere else? And I don't believe the Delaware & Lackawanna, whose tracks Steamtown uses, is class 1. Can anyone confirm? I'm not sure I understand what the big issue/risk is. Just how many tourists or passengers have been killed or seriously injured by steam excursions where diesel operation would have prevented it? And just how many steam locomotives catastrophically failed during the later steam years (after 1940, say?) The FRA has an entirely new set of regulations for maintenance and operation of steam locomotives, which were designed to recognize present day technology. We have (and Steamtown is indeed using) a lot of high tech methods of inspecting steam locomotie parts, metal homogeneity, metal thickness, well integrity, etc. that weren't available even 20 years ago. And lastly, there are an awful lot of steam boilers in operation: Virtually all power plants have huge ones, many steam and hot water heating systems use them, etc. Where are the insurance companies getting their risk data from? Somehow I get the idea that there is a lot more behind this whole thing than what we read on the surface. Can anyone clarify? Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Cincinnati Union Terminal vs. Buffalo Central Terminal Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 11:44:13 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: After seeing CUT, I came home and looked up my information on Buffalo Central Terminal, primarily an NYC terminal, but also used by the Pennsy (required content) and TH&B, as far as I know. The terminal is not only still standing, but the track platforms and umbrella roofs are still there. There was an effort to preserve/restore it a few years ago. They got it cleaned out/up reasonably well, but I haven't been able to find out any more the past couple years. Do any listers, especially any from western NY/Buffalo, know any more about the status of BCT? It was designed by the same guy who designed CUT, and opened in 1929, just a couple years before CUT. Also art decco. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Kirkpatrick" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 10:33:33 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Dear Bill and others, The big issue is not that catastrophic railfan event accidents have occurred but that the very possibility, however remote, raises the redflag of lawsuits and thus the insurers require huge insurance premiums for such an event. Just one lawsuit could result in a legal award totaling millions of dollars nowadays and even defending against a spurious lawsuit requires a huge expenditure. It ends up being more trouble and expense than most rail companies or excursion groups can handle... Welcome to the modern era of legal and popular greed. Doug Kirkpatrick Medford, OR ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Bigler" To: Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 8:35 AM Subject: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions > Jerry & Listers, > > Was surprised and more than a bit upset that Steamtown won't be running > steam. As Jerry or someone surmised, it seems like there must be more to it > than just the insurance issue. Does anyone know for sure who is and who > isn't running steam this summer? > > As I remember, SP 4449, SP&S 700, UP engines, and MLW 261 probably won't run > because of insurance issues, but I haven't heard any final word. From what > I can surmise, Ohio Central is running, along with museum operations such as > Cass, Strassburg, Nevada Northern, etc. As someone mentioned, the issue may > be running on Class 1 railroads. However, from an insurance standpoint, why > should this be different from running anywhere else? And I don't believe > the Delaware & Lackawanna, whose tracks Steamtown uses, is class 1. Can > anyone confirm? > > I'm not sure I understand what the big issue/risk is. Just how many > tourists or passengers have been killed or seriously injured by steam > excursions where diesel operation would have prevented it? And just how > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Rowilki@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 14:09:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 139 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: The Cleveland Union Terminal (Terminal Tower) served the NYC, NKP and ERR (EL) which also carried P&LE cars . After Amtrak was formed it used CUT until thru passenger service was eliminated. Shortly after Amtrak service was restored with the Lake Shore Limited the current lake front station was built across the highway from what is now the Browns stadium and the Science Center and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. The EL ran one commuter train a day into CUT from Youngstown until about 1976 The PRR had two stations - the main one was off the downtown area along the lake front. I think , but am not sure, that it was also called union station I don't know when it was demolished - probably in the 50's. The second was on Euclid Ave. at or near 55th St. It has also been torn down but if you look you can still see some wall structure as the tracks are elevated at that location. The last train that PRR had to Cleveland was the Clevelander , it think no's 38 and 39, which ran to New York city and carried sleeping cars until the PRR targeted it for elimination - it was eliminated in the late 60's Hope this helps = Dick Wilkison ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Cincinnati Union Terminal vs. Buffalo Central Terminal Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 14:49:11 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Bill and anyone else interested try this link for information on BCT. as far as preservation, Conrail did a big dis-service years ago when the blew up back of the concourse to allow double stack trains through. Note, that was the official reason even though they could bypass the concourse, local railroaders I've talked to feel limiting future preservation and use was a factor. However I am now getting off topic. http://central.terminal.railfan.net/ Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Bigler" To: Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 11:44 AM Subject: [PRR] Cincinnati Union Terminal vs. Buffalo Central Terminal > After seeing CUT, I came home and looked up my information on Buffalo > Central Terminal, primarily an NYC terminal, but also used by the Pennsy > (required content) and TH&B, as far as I know. The terminal is not only > still standing, but the track platforms and umbrella roofs are still there. > There was an effort to preserve/restore it a few years ago. They got it > cleaned out/up reasonably well, but I haven't been able to find out any more > the past couple years. > > Do any listers, especially any from western NY/Buffalo, know any more about > the status of BCT? It was designed by the same guy who designed CUT, and > opened in 1929, just a couple years before CUT. Also art decco. > > Bill Bigler - 4915 > Big Flats NY > Modeling PRR Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 16:40:27 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] MS60 class vs. MS60 plans In a message dated 5/7/04 9:43:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re:MS60 > From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" > Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 15:17:51 -0400 > > > > Jerry &List, > > Do you remember the discussion about the MS60 class? I found a picture of > #2542 on > > page 6 of "Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad". I think it reinforces my > statement that this > > was a separate &distinct class. What do you think? > > Regards, > > Eddie > Eddie, Is this an MS60? Not really ... 2542 is one of ten X42 class 2540-2549, as can be confirmed by ORPTEs or other Pennsy rosters. Also see: Refloc Reftitle Refpage PRR Color Guide 3 17 PRR Color Guide V1 84 Keystone 1979-1 X42 28 I don't believe it's ever been established: 1. exactly what year PRR's class MS60 mail storage cars, a steel car essentially the same as a B60b, were converted and reclassified to B60b. 2. exactly why the planned consists of Pennsy trains continued to refer to storage mail cars as MS60's after the class ceased to exist. Remember, the requirements in these plans added up to hundreds of cars a day. 3. exactly what cars were used to fill a planned MS60 slot -- but anecdotal evidence from various emails over the past 6 years indicates the actual car might be a PRR baggage, an X42, or any available foreign road baggage with about 60 feet of loading space for storage mail, per US Post Office regulations. In some cases, the car may have even been an X29 BX, which was only 40'6" long. Since we have been hashing about the poor old MS60 ever since PRR-Talk started up, I'd like to suggest we give it a rest and admit that we just don't know. Personally, I'm hoping more info eventually surfaces from the PRRT&HS archives in Lewistown. But as of now, there just isn't enough information on this subject to be satisfactory. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 16:40:35 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Cleveland stations In a message dated 5/7/04 9:43:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) > From: "William Bigler" > Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 15:29:26 -0400 > > Hmmm - I'm confused (not unusual as age takes over). I grew up in Cleveland > and rode many a train out of there during the 50's and early 60's. As I > remember it, the PRR trains all came into the Pennsy station at 55th and > Euclid. The Terminal Tower served the NYC and NKP, plus the Cleveland and > Shaker Heights Rapid Transits. The transit system still uses the terminal, > but alas, Amtrak uses a shed along the lakefront. Cleveland Union Terminal > electrics pulled the trains through the underground terminal in the steam > days while the steam locomotives bypassed the terminal and rejoined their > trains on the other side. As I remember, Pennsy used the 55th St. Station > until the end of PRR passenger service to Cleveland. Since Cleveland wasn't > on the Pennsy mainline, I believe PRR passenger service ended in Cleveland > sooner than other places. I suppose it's possible that after that the PRR > had an arrangement with NYC or NKP to handle through cars for > loading/unloading at Cleveland Union Terminal, but I sure don't remember it. > Anyone have enough old timetables and Official Guides to look it up and tell > for sure? > > As an aside, when they tore down the PRR 55th St. Station, my father > retrieved some of the huge stone blocks used for the retainin wall to use > for a retaining wall along his driveway. I still remember the look on his > face when they set one of them in the back of a friend's pick-up truck and > the springs bottomed out and the suspension nearly collapsed! Needless to > say, they went back and got a bigger truck. Typical of Pennsy, those huge > stone blocks were intended to outlast the earth itself! > > Bill Bigler - 4915 > Big Flats NY > Modeling PRR Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > As I understand it from John Rehor's book The Nickel Plate, from 1865 the PRR, the Big Four, and the Lake Shore & Michigan Southern had a lakefront Union Depot at the foot of the hill on the north edge of downtown Cleveland. I can't find a reference that describes a later, separate PRR station downtown, but if you stand near the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and look south toward the hill downtown is built on, you can see some suspicious-looking stone retaining walls facing you. Certainly, any lakefront station was at the bottom of PRR's well-known grade that descends from the east side of town (where Euclid at 55th was located). Rehor describes the development of Cleveland Union Station (opened 1930) in some detail, and mentions that the Pennsy NEVER went in there. The gulch CUT used also had previous B&O, Erie, and W&LE stations in it; those roads, NYC, and NKP moved into CUT, freezing PRR out. Since Euclid Avenue is shown as an intermediate point in a 1937 and in a 1950 PRR timetable, we can assume PRR trains still went downtown to some terminal then. Checking a 1954 timetable, and also a stray 1958 Official Guide I have here, the Cleveland station reference is to "Penna Station", with next stations out at Woodland Ave and Harvard Ave. This has to mean that by 1954 the trains originated at 55th Street/Euclid Avenue, otherwise it too would still be listed there as an intermediate point. A Clevelander like Mark Bej could undoubtedly provide a more accurate and detailed answer to all this... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 16:40:35 EDT Subject: [PRR] Cleveland stations In a message dated 5/7/04 9:43:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) > From: "William Bigler" > Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 15:29:26 -0400 > > Hmmm - I'm confused (not unusual as age takes over). I grew up in Cleveland > and rode many a train out of there during the 50's and early 60's. As I > remember it, the PRR trains all came into the Pennsy station at 55th and > Euclid. The Terminal Tower served the NYC and NKP, plus the Cleveland and > Shaker Heights Rapid Transits. The transit system still uses the terminal, > but alas, Amtrak uses a shed along the lakefront. Cleveland Union Terminal > electrics pulled the trains through the underground terminal in the steam > days while the steam locomotives bypassed the terminal and rejoined their > trains on the other side. As I remember, Pennsy used the 55th St. Station > until the end of PRR passenger service to Cleveland. Since Cleveland wasn't > on the Pennsy mainline, I believe PRR passenger service ended in Cleveland > sooner than other places. I suppose it's possible that after that the PRR > had an arrangement with NYC or NKP to handle through cars for > loading/unloading at Cleveland Union Terminal, but I sure don't remember it. > Anyone have enough old timetables and Official Guides to look it up and tell > for sure? > > As an aside, when they tore down the PRR 55th St. Station, my father > retrieved some of the huge stone blocks used for the retainin wall to use > for a retaining wall along his driveway. I still remember the look on his > face when they set one of them in the back of a friend's pick-up truck and > the springs bottomed out and the suspension nearly collapsed! Needless to > say, they went back and got a bigger truck. Typical of Pennsy, those huge > stone blocks were intended to outlast the earth itself! > > Bill Bigler - 4915 > Big Flats NY > Modeling PRR Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > As I understand it from John Rehor's book The Nickel Plate, from 1865 the PRR, the Big Four, and the Lake Shore & Michigan Southern had a lakefront Union Depot at the foot of the hill on the north edge of downtown Cleveland. I can't find a reference that describes a later, separate PRR station downtown, but if you stand near the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and look south toward the hill downtown is built on, you can see some suspicious-looking stone retaining walls facing you. Certainly, any lakefront station was at the bottom of PRR's well-known grade that descends from the east side of town (where Euclid at 55th was located). Rehor describes the development of Cleveland Union Station (opened 1930) in some detail, and mentions that the Pennsy NEVER went in there. The gulch CUT used also had previous B&O, Erie, and W&LE stations in it; those roads, NYC, and NKP moved into CUT, freezing PRR out. Since Euclid Avenue is shown as an intermediate point in a 1937 and in a 1950 PRR timetable, we can assume PRR trains still went downtown to some terminal then. Checking a 1954 timetable, and also a stray 1958 Official Guide I have here, the Cleveland station reference is to "Penna Station", with next stations out at Woodland Ave and Harvard Ave. This has to mean that by 1954 the trains originated at 55th Street/Euclid Avenue, otherwise it too would still be listed there as an intermediate point. A Clevelander like Mark Bej could undoubtedly provide a more accurate and detailed answer to all this... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_140.28fbd20c.2dce9fc3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 5/7/04 9:43:04 P= M Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

Subject: Re: [PRR] train consol= idation (Cleveland and Detroit)
From: "William Bigler" <wbigler@stny.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 15:29:26 -0400

Hmmm - I'm confused (not unusual as age takes over). I grew up in Cleveland<= BR> and rode many a train out of there during the 50's and early 60's. As=20= I
remember it, the PRR trains all came into the Pennsy station at 55th and
Euclid. The Terminal Tower served the NYC and NKP, plus the Cleveland=20= and
Shaker Heights Rapid Transits. The transit system still uses the termi= nal,
but alas, Amtrak uses a shed along the lakefront. Cleveland Union Term= inal
electrics pulled the trains through the underground terminal in the steam days while the steam locomotives bypassed the terminal and rejoined their trains on the other side. As I remember, Pennsy used the 55th St. Stat= ion
until the end of PRR passenger service to Cleveland. Since Cleveland w= asn't
on the Pennsy mainline, I believe PRR passenger service ended in Cleveland sooner than other places. I suppose it's possible that after that the=20= PRR
had an arrangement with NYC or NKP to handle through cars for
loading/unloading at Cleveland Union Terminal, but I sure don't remember it.=
Anyone have enough old timetables and Official Guides to look it up and tell=
for sure?

As an aside, when they tore down the PRR 55th St. Station, my father
retrieved some of the huge stone blocks used for the retainin wall to use for a retaining wall along his driveway. I still remember the look on=20= his
face when they set one of them in the back of a friend's pick-up truck and the springs bottomed out and the suspension nearly collapsed! Needless= to
say, they went back and got a bigger truck. Typical of Pennsy, those h= uge
stone blocks were intended to outlast the earth itself!

Bill Bigler - 4915
Big Flats NY
Modeling PRR Renovo &
Williamsport WWII

As I understand it from John Rehor's book The Nickel Plate, from 1865= the PRR, the Big Four, and the Lake Shore & Michigan Southern had a lak= efront Union Depot at the foot of the hill on the north edge of downtown Cle= veland. I can't find a reference that describes a later, separate PRR=20= station downtown, but if you stand near the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and=20= look south toward the hill downtown is built on, you can see some suspicious= -looking stone retaining walls facing you. Certainly, any lakefront st= ation was at the bottom of PRR's well-known grade that descends from the eas= t side of town (where Euclid at 55th was located).

Rehor describes the development of Cleveland Union Station (opened 1930) in=20= some detail, and mentions that the Pennsy NEVER went in there. The gul= ch CUT used also had previous B&O, Erie, and W&LE stations in it; th= ose roads, NYC, and NKP moved into CUT, freezing PRR out.

Since Euclid Avenue is shown as an intermediate point in a 1937 and in a 195= 0 PRR timetable, we can assume PRR trains still went downtown to some termin= al then. Checking a 1954 timetable, and also a stray 1958 Official Gui= de I have here, the Cleveland station reference is to "Penna Station", with=20= next stations out at Woodland Ave and Harvard Ave. This has to mean th= at by 1954 the trains originated at 55th Street/Euclid Avenue, otherwise it=20= too would still be listed there as an intermediate point.

A Clevelander like Mark Bej could undoubtedly provide a more accurate and de= tailed answer to all this...

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_140.28fbd20c.2dce9fc3_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 16:40:35 EDT Subject: [PRR] Cleveland stations In a message dated 5/7/04 9:43:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) > From: "William Bigler" > Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 15:29:26 -0400 > > Hmmm - I'm confused (not unusual as age takes over). I grew up in Cleveland > and rode many a train out of there during the 50's and early 60's. As I > remember it, the PRR trains all came into the Pennsy station at 55th and > Euclid. The Terminal Tower served the NYC and NKP, plus the Cleveland and > Shaker Heights Rapid Transits. The transit system still uses the terminal, > but alas, Amtrak uses a shed along the lakefront. Cleveland Union Terminal > electrics pulled the trains through the underground terminal in the steam > days while the steam locomotives bypassed the terminal and rejoined their > trains on the other side. As I remember, Pennsy used the 55th St. Station > until the end of PRR passenger service to Cleveland. Since Cleveland wasn't > on the Pennsy mainline, I believe PRR passenger service ended in Cleveland > sooner than other places. I suppose it's possible that after that the PRR > had an arrangement with NYC or NKP to handle through cars for > loading/unloading at Cleveland Union Terminal, but I sure don't remember it. > Anyone have enough old timetables and Official Guides to look it up and tell > for sure? > > As an aside, when they tore down the PRR 55th St. Station, my father > retrieved some of the huge stone blocks used for the retainin wall to use > for a retaining wall along his driveway. I still remember the look on his > face when they set one of them in the back of a friend's pick-up truck and > the springs bottomed out and the suspension nearly collapsed! Needless to > say, they went back and got a bigger truck. Typical of Pennsy, those huge > stone blocks were intended to outlast the earth itself! > > Bill Bigler - 4915 > Big Flats NY > Modeling PRR Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > As I understand it from John Rehor's book The Nickel Plate, from 1865 the PRR, the Big Four, and the Lake Shore & Michigan Southern had a lakefront Union Depot at the foot of the hill on the north edge of downtown Cleveland. I can't find a reference that describes a later, separate PRR station downtown, but if you stand near the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and look south toward the hill downtown is built on, you can see some suspicious-looking stone retaining walls facing you. Certainly, any lakefront station was at the bottom of PRR's well-known grade that descends from the east side of town (where Euclid at 55th was located). Rehor describes the development of Cleveland Union Station (opened 1930) in some detail, and mentions that the Pennsy NEVER went in there. The gulch CUT used also had previous B&O, Erie, and W&LE stations in it; those roads, NYC, and NKP moved into CUT, freezing PRR out. Since Euclid Avenue is shown as an intermediate point in a 1937 and in a 1950 PRR timetable, we can assume PRR trains still went downtown to some terminal then. Checking a 1954 timetable, and also a stray 1958 Official Guide I have here, the Cleveland station reference is to "Penna Station", with next stations out at Woodland Ave and Harvard Ave. This has to mean that by 1954 the trains originated at 55th Street/Euclid Avenue, otherwise it too would still be listed there as an intermediate point. A Clevelander like Mark Bej could undoubtedly provide a more accurate and detailed answer to all this... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_140.28fbd20c.2dce9fc3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 5/7/04 9:43:04 P= M Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

Subject: Re: [PRR] train consol= idation (Cleveland and Detroit)
From: "William Bigler" <wbigler@stny.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 15:29:26 -0400

Hmmm - I'm confused (not unusual as age takes over). I grew up in Cleveland<= BR> and rode many a train out of there during the 50's and early 60's. As=20= I
remember it, the PRR trains all came into the Pennsy station at 55th and
Euclid. The Terminal Tower served the NYC and NKP, plus the Cleveland=20= and
Shaker Heights Rapid Transits. The transit system still uses the termi= nal,
but alas, Amtrak uses a shed along the lakefront. Cleveland Union Term= inal
electrics pulled the trains through the underground terminal in the steam days while the steam locomotives bypassed the terminal and rejoined their trains on the other side. As I remember, Pennsy used the 55th St. Stat= ion
until the end of PRR passenger service to Cleveland. Since Cleveland w= asn't
on the Pennsy mainline, I believe PRR passenger service ended in Cleveland sooner than other places. I suppose it's possible that after that the=20= PRR
had an arrangement with NYC or NKP to handle through cars for
loading/unloading at Cleveland Union Terminal, but I sure don't remember it.=
Anyone have enough old timetables and Official Guides to look it up and tell=
for sure?

As an aside, when they tore down the PRR 55th St. Station, my father
retrieved some of the huge stone blocks used for the retainin wall to use for a retaining wall along his driveway. I still remember the look on=20= his
face when they set one of them in the back of a friend's pick-up truck and the springs bottomed out and the suspension nearly collapsed! Needless= to
say, they went back and got a bigger truck. Typical of Pennsy, those h= uge
stone blocks were intended to outlast the earth itself!

Bill Bigler - 4915
Big Flats NY
Modeling PRR Renovo &
Williamsport WWII

As I understand it from John Rehor's book The Nickel Plate, from 1865= the PRR, the Big Four, and the Lake Shore & Michigan Southern had a lak= efront Union Depot at the foot of the hill on the north edge of downtown Cle= veland. I can't find a reference that describes a later, separate PRR=20= station downtown, but if you stand near the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and=20= look south toward the hill downtown is built on, you can see some suspicious= -looking stone retaining walls facing you. Certainly, any lakefront st= ation was at the bottom of PRR's well-known grade that descends from the eas= t side of town (where Euclid at 55th was located).

Rehor describes the development of Cleveland Union Station (opened 1930) in=20= some detail, and mentions that the Pennsy NEVER went in there. The gul= ch CUT used also had previous B&O, Erie, and W&LE stations in it; th= ose roads, NYC, and NKP moved into CUT, freezing PRR out.

Since Euclid Avenue is shown as an intermediate point in a 1937 and in a 195= 0 PRR timetable, we can assume PRR trains still went downtown to some termin= al then. Checking a 1954 timetable, and also a stray 1958 Official Gui= de I have here, the Cleveland station reference is to "Penna Station", with=20= next stations out at Woodland Ave and Harvard Ave. This has to mean th= at by 1954 the trains originated at 55th Street/Euclid Avenue, otherwise it=20= too would still be listed there as an intermediate point.

A Clevelander like Mark Bej could undoubtedly provide a more accurate and de= tailed answer to all this...

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_140.28fbd20c.2dce9fc3_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 16:40:27 EDT Subject: [PRR] MS60 class vs. MS60 plans In a message dated 5/7/04 9:43:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re:MS60 > From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" > Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 15:17:51 -0400 > > > > Jerry &List, > > Do you remember the discussion about the MS60 class? I found a picture of > #2542 on > > page 6 of "Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad". I think it reinforces my > statement that this > > was a separate &distinct class. What do you think? > > Regards, > > Eddie > Eddie, Is this an MS60? Not really ... 2542 is one of ten X42 class 2540-2549, as can be confirmed by ORPTEs or other Pennsy rosters. Also see: Refloc Reftitle Refpage PRR Color Guide 3 17 PRR Color Guide V1 84 Keystone 1979-1 X42 28 I don't believe it's ever been established: 1. exactly what year PRR's class MS60 mail storage cars, a steel car essentially the same as a B60b, were converted and reclassified to B60b. 2. exactly why the planned consists of Pennsy trains continued to refer to storage mail cars as MS60's after the class ceased to exist. Remember, the requirements in these plans added up to hundreds of cars a day. 3. exactly what cars were used to fill a planned MS60 slot -- but anecdotal evidence from various emails over the past 6 years indicates the actual car might be a PRR baggage, an X42, or any available foreign road baggage with about 60 feet of loading space for storage mail, per US Post Office regulations. In some cases, the car may have even been an X29 BX, which was only 40'6" long. Since we have been hashing about the poor old MS60 ever since PRR-Talk started up, I'd like to suggest we give it a rest and admit that we just don't know. Personally, I'm hoping more info eventually surfaces from the PRRT&HS archives in Lewistown. But as of now, there just isn't enough information on this subject to be satisfactory. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_60.3e8f5e8a.2dce9fbb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 5/7/04 9:43:04 P= M Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

Subject: Re:MS60
From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" <docfoot@bellsouth.net>
Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 15:17:51 -0400

Jerry &List,

Do you remember the discussion about the MS60 class? I found a picture of #2542 on

page 6 of "Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad". I think it reinforces my
statement that this

was a separate &distinct class. What do you think?

Regards,

Eddie

Eddie,

Is this an MS60? Not really ...

2542 is one of ten X42 class 2540-2549, as can be confirmed by ORPTEs or oth= er Pennsy rosters. Also see:

Refloc Reftitle Refpage
PRR Color Guide 3 17
PRR Color Guide V1 84
Keystone 1979-1 X42 28

I don't believe it's ever been established:
1. exactly what year PRR's class MS60 mail storage cars, a steel car essenti= ally the same as a B60b, were converted and reclassified to B60b.
2. exactly why the planned consists of Pennsy trains continued to refer to s= torage mail cars as MS60's after the class ceased to exist. Remember,=20= the requirements in these plans added up to hundreds of cars a day.
3. exactly what cars were used to fill a planned MS60 slot -- but anecdotal=20= evidence from various emails over the past 6 years indicates the actual car=20= might be a PRR baggage, an X42, or any available foreign road baggage with a= bout 60 feet of loading space for storage mail, per US Post Office regulatio= ns. In some cases, the car may have even been an X29 BX, which was onl= y 40'6" long.

Since we have been hashing about the poor old MS60 ever since PRR-Talk start= ed up, I'd like to suggest we give it a rest and admit that we just don't kn= ow. Personally, I'm hoping more info eventually surfaces from the PRRT= &HS archives in Lewistown. But as of now, there just isn't enough=20= information on this subject to be satisfactory.

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_60.3e8f5e8a.2dce9fbb_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 17:12:37 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 124 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 5/8/2004 12:02:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wbigler@stny.rr.com writes: << As someone mentioned, the issue may be running on Class 1 railroads. However, from an insurance standpoint, why should this be different from running anywhere else? And I don't believe the Delaware & Lackawanna, whose tracks Steamtown uses, is class 1. Can anyone confirm? >> I have heard the managment of two steam tourist railroads comment directly on their recent experiences with insurance costs. In both cases, they have been quoted enormous increases in insurance costs -- in one instance, seven-fold -- when their policies came up for renewal. This is neither a problem limited to Class 1 trackage, nor an imaginary excuse. Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 17:36:55 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] MS60 class vs. MS60 plans In a message dated 5/8/04 5:03:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > On May 8, 2004, at 4:40 PM, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > > > > Since we have been hashing about the poor old MS60 ever since > >PRR-Talk started up, I'd like to suggest we give it a rest and admit > >that we just don't know. Personally, I'm hoping more info eventually > >surfaces from the PRRT&HS archives in Lewistown. But as of now, there > >just isn't enough information on this subject to be satisfactory. > > What, Rick, no interest in an "MS60-talk" mailing list? ;-) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Correctamundo . None whatsoever... until we discover some real data. Meanwhile, back to the horse cars (PRR M74b and L&N)... PS -- it was great to see you all in Cincinnati. The time was too short!! Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 17:36:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 class vs. MS60 plans In a message dated 5/8/04 5:03:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > On May 8, 2004, at 4:40 PM, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > > > > Since we have been hashing about the poor old MS60 ever since > >PRR-Talk started up, I'd like to suggest we give it a rest and admit > >that we just don't know. Personally, I'm hoping more info eventually > >surfaces from the PRRT&HS archives in Lewistown. But as of now, there > >just isn't enough information on this subject to be satisfactory. > > What, Rick, no interest in an "MS60-talk" mailing list? ;-) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Correctamundo . None whatsoever... until we discover some real data. Meanwhile, back to the horse cars (PRR M74b and L&N)... PS -- it was great to see you all in Cincinnati. The time was too short!! Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_127.405666ac.2dceacf7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 5/8/04 5:03:07 P= M Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

On May 8, 2004, at 4:40 PM, Ric= kTipton@aol.com wrote:

>
> Since we have been hashing about the poor old MS60 ever since
>PRR-Talk started up, I'd like to suggest we give it a rest and admit >that we just don't know. Personally, I'm hoping more info eventual= ly
>surfaces from the PRRT&HS archives in Lewistown. But as of now= , there
>just isn't enough information on this subject to be satisfactory.

What, Rick, no interest in an "MS60-talk" mailing list? ;-)
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyr= r.com

Correctamundo <LOL>. None whatsoever... until we discover some r= eal data. Meanwhile, back to the horse cars (PRR M74b and L&N)...<= BR>
PS -- it was great to see you all in Cincinnati. The time was too shor= t!!

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_127.405666ac.2dceacf7_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 18:21:14 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] N5e HELP! Hi All, I just printed a Builders Photo of the N5e. Even though it is B&W, it does not appear to have a different color for the roof. (Black) I know that the roof sometimes was FCR earlier, but this photo was taken in 1946. My customer wants it to be the usual black roof and FCR body for the 1950s. Does anyone have a color photo in Circle Keystone and a black roof? If so, what year was it taken if known? What about yellow grabs and step edges? Since I know this will never be made in S Scale I never paid attention to any photos. But this is the HO model imported by Alco. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass PRR X29 in S Scale The production for the REA Version has begun http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] N5e HELP! Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 18:21:14 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, I just printed a Builders Photo of the N5e. Even though it is B&W, it does not appear to have a different color for the roof. (Black) I know that the roof sometimes was FCR earlier, but this photo was taken in 1946. My customer wants it to be the usual black roof and FCR body for the 1950s. Does anyone have a color photo in Circle Keystone and a black roof? If so, what year was it taken if known? What about yellow grabs and step edges? Since I know this will never be made in S Scale I never paid attention to any photos. But this is the HO model imported by Alco. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass PRR X29 in S Scale The production for the REA Version has begun http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] N5e HELP! Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 18:21:14 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, I just printed a Builders Photo of the N5e. Even though it is B&W, it does not appear to have a different color for the roof. (Black) I know that the roof sometimes was FCR earlier, but this photo was taken in 1946. My customer wants it to be the usual black roof and FCR body for the 1950s. Does anyone have a color photo in Circle Keystone and a black roof? If so, what year was it taken if known? What about yellow grabs and step edges? Since I know this will never be made in S Scale I never paid attention to any photos. But this is the HO model imported by Alco. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass PRR X29 in S Scale The production for the REA Version has begun http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 19:30:16 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Gents, I can tell you from talking with railroad employees in the area that the current FRA issues with steam operation came about because of the engine explosion that occurred on the Gettysburg Railroad a decade ago. The explosion killed the engineer and seriously injured the firemen. From what i heard the root cause among other minor things was that the firetubes were not structurally sound. After that the FRA really got strict. My two cents. John "William Bigler" wrote: Jerry & Listers, Was surprised and more than a bit upset that Steamtown won't be running steam. As Jerry or someone surmised, it seems like there must be more to it than just the insurance issue. Does anyone know for sure who is and who isn't running steam this summer? As I remember, SP 4449, SP&S 700, UP engines, and MLW 261 probably won't run because of insurance issues, but I haven't heard any final word. From what I can surmise, Ohio Central is running, along with museum operations such as Cass, Strassburg, Nevada Northern, etc. As someone mentioned, the issue may be running on Class 1 railroads. However, from an insurance standpoint, why should this be different from running anywhere else? And I don't believe the Delaware & Lackawanna, whose tracks Steamtown uses, is class 1. Can anyone confirm? I'm not sure I understand what the big issue/risk is. Just how many tourists or passengers have been killed or seriously injured by steam excursions where diesel operation would have prevented it? And just how many steam locomotives catastrophically failed during the later steam years (after 1940, say?) The FRA has an entirely new set of regulations for maintenance and operation of steam locomotives, which were designed to recognize present day technology. We have (and Steamtown is indeed using) a lot of high tech methods of inspecting steam locomotie parts, metal homogeneity, metal thickness, well integrity, etc. that weren't available even 20 years ago. And lastly, there are an awful lot of steam boilers in operation: Virtually all power plants have huge ones, many steam and hot water heating systems use them, etc. Where are the insurance companies getting their risk data from? Somehow I get the idea that there is a lot more behind this whole thing than what we read on the surface. Can anyone clarify? Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 00:36:09 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: John Frantz wrote: > from talking with railroad employees in the area that the current FRA > issues with steam operation came about because of the engine explosion > that occurred on the Gettysburg Railroad a decade ago. Greetings to Jerry, John and the List: Yes, this was the wake-up call that brought down the Feds on the steam excursion/tourist railroad world. The engineer was severely burned but not killed, and at last report was still at the Knox & Kane; the fireman was injured but not in a life-threatening way. The cause of the accident was multiple errors, none of them mechanical or structural, all of them either operational or procedural. The explosion resulted from a classic low-water crown-sheet failure. The aftermath of the accident intensified the scrutiny under which all steam locomotives in the U.S. today are maintained and operated -- and that is one reason among many that there has been so much concern over, and oversight of, the quality of repairs being done to the boiler, firebox, and backhead of No. 1361 (required PRR content). You can read the feds' report on the accident here: http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/1996/SIR9605.pdf. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred in Vt." Subject: [PRR] USRA 2-6-6-2 Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 00:45:55 -0400 List, Has any lister had the chance to see the new Spectrum unit, or = operate same?? Some dark spot in my mind thinks it would make an = interesting addition to the Panhandle Dvn. interchange operations. For = my purposes, if it will handle 25 to 30 hoppers, that will suffice. = Things arrive slowly up here in the mountains, so none of the local = suppliers have one as yet. Comments-------------??? Thanks, Fred = in Vt ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C4355E.FC7795B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

List,

Has any = lister had=20 the chance to see the new Spectrum unit, or operate same?? Some dark = spot in my=20 mind thinks it would make an interesting addition to the Panhandle Dvn.=20 interchange operations. For my purposes, if it will handle 25 to 30 = hoppers,=20 that will suffice. Things arrive slowly up here in the mountains, so = none of the=20 local suppliers have one as yet.=20 Comments-------------??? Thanks, = Fred in=20 Vt

------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C4355E.FC7795B0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: k4sb@niia.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 05:31:35 -00 From: johnf2384@suscom.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 19:30:16 -0400 From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] X29's in MOW Service. Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 01:43:30 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Does anyone know when the PRR started to place X29's into MOW service? Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 08:04:58 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) From: Jamie Bothwell In-Reply-To: <00af01c434a6$82f498e0$1c6a9e0c@gtcom.net> Message-Id: <1752CA15-A1B1-11D8-9083-000393A994E0@verizon.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out011.verizon.net from [141.158.35.177] at Sun, 9 May 2004 07:03:13 -0500 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, For anyone interested in the decline of passenger railroading in the late 50's and early 60's, I recommend "Twilight of the Great Trains" by Fred Frailey from Kalmbach. One of the best RR books I have ever read. The one sentence summery is that most trains still covered their out of pocket costs until the USPS pulled the mail off. Railroads often claimed fully allocated costs to the public because they were much higher. Jamie Bothwell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 10:42:48 eds Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1,3,5,7,9,13,15,17-18,22,28,31,37-42 From: aurora7@juno.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: The fireman was a teenager who had "qualified" for the position. The responsibility should not have been placed upon a youth in the first place. The locomotive is currently at the Ohio Central, and hopefully, it will get a rebuild sometime in the future. She was a very modern CP light Pacific (Class G5, incidentally) and her design was such that the rush of steam vented through the grates rather than in an explosive boiler failure. From the exterior, you couldn't sense that the failure was as catastrophic as it was. This was nail #1 in the live steaming coffin. Nail #2 was a live steam tractor failure at a fair in Ohio. The tractor was severely degraded, and by severely, I mean the boiler was eroded beyond any safe tolerances. The safety was suppressed, and it was fired way over limits. The father and son team that owned the tractor had no technical experience with steam powered vehicles. They owned an old tractor and would fire it up for kicks. When it blew up, both men were killed and a 15 foot deep crater was left where the tractor had stood. Many others were injured as well. These two undereducated steam enthusiasts were the real reason that steam has been thoroughly squelched in the USA. The Brits has an incredibly alive steam locomotive (and steam tractor) program. They have the public funding through the national historic trust, which is lottery funded. There are strict, self-imposed, limits on locomotive service before a massive teardown and rebuilding occurs. They have regular locomotive tests and actively pursue metallurgy and the like. This program is so effective that the final ten locomotives from the Barry scrap yard are being fought over for parts to rebuild extinct classes of certain engines. In fact, there is serious argument as to which locomotives will be left un-rebuilt, to show what the steam resurection program was all about! Steam railroading in Britain is so healthy that at least two glossy magazines are published monthly with up to date steam locomotive information and promotion. May I add, at the risk of being accused of being a Socialist and un-American, that the British "get it" and we are so hung up on private funding, that we cut off our noses to spite our faces? Preserving our historical treasures, mechanical and architectural, is in everyone's best interest, rather than the responsibility of a few enthusiasts. Steamtown is a perfect example. Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "There are no stupid questions, but many inquisitive idiots." ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 11:00:03 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2739.300 In-Reply-To: <00af01c434a6$82f498e0$1c6a9e0c@gtcom.net> Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Greg said: "When I was transferred to Baltimore as a Sales Rep. just before Christmas (PRR was good at that sort of thing),..." Yes, I remember being transferred from Branch Line Supervisor at Sharon, PA (Lake Division) to Mainline Supervisor at Plymouth, IN (Fort Wayne Division) one week before Christmas, in 1965 or 1966. We had three little kids at the time. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: k4sb@niia.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 15:40:40 -00 >From: aurora7@juno.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions >Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 10:42:48 eds From: "L. Heintz" Subject: [PRR] Buffalo Terminal-used by PRR Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 11:02:50 -0400 Bill, if you do a search named buffalo terminal on google the first two = pages list a number of good sites for photos,but, look at some of the = links they list. There are a large number of neat photos that have been = taken of the areas not shown on most sites and one guy describes these = places in detail. There is a group working to secure and stabilize the terminal and they = hold tours 2 or 3 times a year. They also hold clean up parties that = might allow participants to see areas not on the tour. LH ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C435B5.2B87F6A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

Bill, if you do a search named buffalo = terminal on=20 google the first two pages list a number of good sites for photos,but, = look at=20 some of the links they list. There are a large number of neat photos = that have=20 been taken of the areas not shown on most sites and one guy describes = these=20 places in detail.

There is a group working to secure and = stabilize=20 the terminal and they hold tours 2 or 3 times a = year. They also hold=20 clean up parties that might allow participants to see areas not on the=20 tour.

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C435B5.2B87F6A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 11:05:50 -0500 Subject: [PRR] ICC formula/RPO's (was train consolidation) From: Frederick Ripley Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 09:54:15 -0700 (PDT) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [PRR] USRA 2-6-6-2 X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe:

I have one of the Spectrum USRA 2-6-6-2's. It is a very nice engine and a very smooth runner. I would recommend it. It is a perfect size for an articulated and looks great pulling a string of hoppers. Peach Creek Shops has the Bachmann C&O Vandy tenders, which look great behind her.

Eric

-----Original Message-----
From: "Fred in Vt."
Sent: May 8, 2004 9:45 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] USRA 2-6-6-2

List,

Has any lister had the chance to see the new Spectrum unit, or operate same?? Some dark spot in my mind thinks it would make an interesting addition to the Panhandle Dvn. interchange operations. For my purposes, if it will handle 25 to 30 hoppers, that will suffice. Things arrive slowly up here in the mountains, so none of the local suppliers have one as yet. Comments-------------??? Thanks, Fred in Vt

----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Walthers Troop Cars Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 13:00:07 -0500 PRR-Listers: Did these cars ever roam PRR tracks? Did they ever run combined with the = Ex-X32 cars that were converted to troop service during WW2? What was = the typical consist of these troop trains on the Pennsy? Were P70 = coaches ever thrown into the consist?=20 just wondering..... Ted ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C435C5.8E08FE40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

PRR-Listers:

Did these cars ever roam PRR tracks? Did they ever run combined = with the=20 Ex-X32 cars that were converted to troop service during WW2? What was = the=20 typical consist of these troop trains on the Pennsy? Were P70 coaches = ever=20 thrown into the consist?

just wondering.....

Ted

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C435C5.8E08FE40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Walthers Troop Cars Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 13:00:07 -0500 PRR-Listers: Did these cars ever roam PRR tracks? Did they ever run combined with the = Ex-X32 cars that were converted to troop service during WW2? What was = the typical consist of these troop trains on the Pennsy? Were P70 = coaches ever thrown into the consist?=20 just wondering..... Ted ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C435C5.8E08FE40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

PRR-Listers:

just wondering.....

Ted

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C435C5.8E08FE40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 17:22:13 -0400 From: dave pierson Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: While it may not be an insurance issue purely, I'd expect insurance has an impact. Other, non-steam tourist ops have cut back, or canceled. ...and with multiple entities involved if Just One gets nervous about _their_ organizational financial exposure things can get sticky. Being involved in 'another activity' with high insurance impact, I have been exposed to what i regard as knowledgeable commentary: LOTS of 'specialty' insurances are rising. And its little to do with actual or statistical risk. Insurance Cos make lots of money investing the premiums. Except when the markets turn bad. While the last 9 months have been good in the markets, the two years before that, or 4 years or... were pretty bad. The insurance Cos need to make up their revenue, so the policy rates go up. best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Rea" Subject: [PRR] Troop trains and the Ohio wreck Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 20:36:01 -0400 In the recent thread re Walthers troop cars, are you referring to the = wreck on the Panhandle near West Lafayette OH? Can any one tell me the = date and the power on both trains? Also, which Keystone covered this? Fred Rea ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C43605.3E1B4F10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

In the recent thread re Walthers troop cars, are you = referring=20 to the wreck on the Panhandle near West Lafayette OH? Can any one = tell me=20 the date and the power on both trains? Also, which Keystone = covered=20 this?

Fred Rea

------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C43605.3E1B4F10-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Rea" Subject: [PRR] Troop trains and the Ohio wreck Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 20:36:01 -0400 In the recent thread re Walthers troop cars, are you referring to the = wreck on the Panhandle near West Lafayette OH? Can any one tell me the = date and the power on both trains? Also, which Keystone covered this? Fred Rea ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C43605.3E1B4F10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

Fred Rea

------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C43605.3E1B4F10-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 20:33:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers Troop Cars From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ted asks: > Did these cars ever roam PRR tracks? As has been stated, Yes. Just a word of clarification. The Troop Sleepers offered by Wlathers will represent the "phase 2" cars built by Pullman in 1945, not the "phase 1" cars built in 1943. The kitchens are appropriate from 1943 onward. Note that there is an excellent article on these cars in the Railway Prototype Cyclopedia, Vol 5. >Did they ever run combined with the > Ex-X32 cars that were converted to troop service during WW2? No reason why they wouldn't have. >What was the > typical consist of these troop trains on the Pennsy? Were P70 coaches ever > thrown into the consist? A brief treatise on WWII troop trains (for the in depth one, come to Prototype Rails in Cocoa Beach next January ) Early on in the war, troop trains consisted mainly of tourist cars (12-1, converted to 13 sections), and other high capacity section cars. However, shorter haul troop trains, and even some long distance trains were made up with day coaches. Baggage cars served as temporary kitchens. The extreme shortage of troop sleepers prompted first the conversion of X32s, and then the construction of the sleepers and kitchens. These cars were designed to be run in multiple 7 to 9 car sets (6-8 sleepers and a kitchen). In late 1943, and into 1944 there are photographs of solid trains of the Pullman Troop Sleeper/AC&F Kitchen Cars in service. However, these were rapidly mixed with the existing fleet of heavyweight pullmans, resulting in mixed trains. This type of service continued for nearly a year after the war ended as the huge demobilization continued. Immediately thereafter, the Troop Sleepers and some of the Kitchens were sold off, however a number of the Kitchens were also retained and could be found interspersed with heavyweight pullmans through the Korean War. It would be unlikely, but not impossible for P70s (or any day coaches) to be mixed with troop sleepers on the same train during WWII. Exceptions probably abound, but for the most part these can be attributed to a single sleeper attached to a coach train, and most likely containing the ranking officers. I plan three troop trains for my 1944 era layout 1) Pullman plan 2410 12-1 Toruist cars, with a CNJ baggage converted for kitchen duty 2) Pullman Troop Sleepers/AC&F Kitchen car and PRR P30A sleeper 3) PRR P70 coaches and B60B converted for kitchen duty - note that this train, with a Pullman added, will serve westbound as a POW train. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Christopher Baker" Subject: RE: [PRR] Cleveland stations Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 00:20:46 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-reply-to: <140.28fbd20c.2dce9fc3@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: The PRR did indeed serve another station in Cleveland - the old Union Station located on the waterfront between the downtown and the NYC mainline. This was the second Union station in Cleveland, built in 1866 after the original Union Station burned in 1864. It sat near W 9th Street at the lakeshore. It lost most of its traffic when Terminal Tower opened in 1930. It served the PRR after that until 1953 and was demolished in 1959. Here's a link to a picture of the station in its heyday: http://www.west2k.com/ohpix/clevelandunionold.jpg Chris Baker PRRT&HS #1918 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of RickTipton@aol.com Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 3:41 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com; PRR@yahoogroups.com; bejm@eeg.ccf.org Subject: [PRR] Cleveland stations In a message dated 5/7/04 9:43:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) From: "William Bigler" Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 15:29:26 -0400 Hmmm - I'm confused (not unusual as age takes over). I grew up in Cleveland and rode many a train out of there during the 50's and early 60's. As I remember it, the PRR trains all came into the Pennsy station at 55th and Euclid. The Terminal Tower served the NYC and NKP, plus the Cleveland and Shaker Heights Rapid Transits. The transit system still uses the terminal, but alas, Amtrak uses a shed along the lakefront. Cleveland Union Terminal electrics pulled the trains through the underground terminal in the steam days while the steam locomotives bypassed the terminal and rejoined their trains on the other side. As I remember, Pennsy used the 55th St. Station until the end of PRR passenger service to Cleveland. Since Cleveland wasn't on the Pennsy mainline, I believe PRR passenger service ended in Cleveland sooner than other places. I suppose it's possible that after that the PRR had an arrangement with NYC or NKP to handle through cars for loading/unloading at Cleveland Union Terminal, but I sure don't remember it. Anyone have enough old timetables and Official Guides to look it up and tell for sure? As an aside, when they tore down the PRR 55th St. Station, my father retrieved some of the huge stone blocks used for the retainin wall to use for a retaining wall along his driveway. I still remember the look on his face when they set one of them in the back of a friend's pick-up truck and the springs bottomed out and the suspension nearly collapsed! Needless to say, they went back and got a bigger truck. Typical of Pennsy, those huge stone blocks were intended to outlast the earth itself! Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII As I understand it from John Rehor's book The Nickel Plate, from 1865 the PRR, the Big Four, and the Lake Shore & Michigan Southern had a lakefront Union Depot at the foot of the hill on the north edge of downtown Cleveland. I can't find a reference that describes a later, separate PRR station downtown, but if you stand near the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and look south toward the hill downtown is built on, you can see some suspicious-looking stone retaining walls facing you. Certainly, any lakefront station was at the bottom of PRR's well-known grade that descends from the east side of town (where Euclid at 55th was located). Rehor describes the development of Cleveland Union Station (opened 1930) in some detail, and mentions that the Pennsy NEVER went in there. The gulch CUT used also had previous B&O, Erie, and W&LE stations in it; those roads, NYC, and NKP moved into CUT, freezing PRR out. Since Euclid Avenue is shown as an intermediate point in a 1937 and in a 1950 PRR timetable, we can assume PRR trains still went downtown to some terminal then. Checking a 1954 timetable, and also a stray 1958 Official Guide I have here, the Cleveland station reference is to "Penna Station", with next stations out at Woodland Ave and Harvard Ave. This has to mean that by 1954 the trains originated at 55th Street/Euclid Avenue, otherwise it too would still be listed there as an intermediate point. A Clevelander like Mark Bej could undoubtedly provide a more accurate and detailed answer to all this... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: [PRR] steamer issues Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 01:06:28 -0400 Gents; I live about 35 miles from that Medina County Fair steam tractor = explosion a few years ago that sent shockwaves thru this area relative = to ANYTHING steam powered near breathing humans. There were 5 killed and the steam tractor was not in good shape to = begin with just as was stated by Richard Glueck. I had heard the FRA took a knee jerk response to anything steam untill = they could review all the parties that had steam operations of ANY type! = That may be why the Ohio Central is back up and running steam to some = degree...... Earl Myers ------=_NextPart_000_0073_01C4362B.06063420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

Gents;

I live about 35 miles from that = Medina County=20 Fair steam tractor explosion a few years ago that sent shockwaves thru = this area=20 relative to ANYTHING steam powered near breathing humans.

There were 5 killed and the steam = tractor was=20 not in good shape to begin with just as was stated by Richard=20 Glueck.

I had heard the FRA took a knee = jerk response=20 to anything steam untill they could review all the parties that had = steam=20 operations of ANY type! That may be why the Ohio Central is back up and = running=20 steam to some degree......

Earl Myers

------=_NextPart_000_0073_01C4362B.06063420-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 08:17:16 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: [PRR] Re: Insurance & Steam Excursions Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: For whatever reason, it has become increasingly expensive to insure any unusual or risky event: steam locomotives, Iraqi oil tankers, doctors and hospitals to mention a few. The folks who analyze this from medical malpractice viewpoints blame it on several factors including lawsuit happy patients and lawyers (which may or may not be true), "bad" doctors who aren't weeded out by Boards of Medicine, shrinking numbers of competing companies offering medical malpractice insurance, and huge losses in the stock market by the remaining insurers who use market profits to fund reserves and pay losses. My personal insurance as a physician has doubled in the last year and will triple in two more (while my reimbursement is being cut by most healthcare insurers.) The rates for our community hospital went up 4 fold and continue to rise. I suspect that you could make the same case for the rising costs of insurance for the steam railroad industry. Jim McDaniel, steamless in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ray Breyer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Steam Excursions Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 07:41:51 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: <005701c43512$0d9b9500$a5d71842@stny.rr.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Thread-index: AcQ1E/Qmigl6nrE7SKKIn9XU1fgtdABdyTpw Message-ID: <1127929580-495894497@dsop.com> Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Bill, 261, at least, is running all over Wisconsin, Illinois, Missouri and Minnesota this June. Check out www.261.org for excursion schedules, including a two-day layover in Chicago and several short trips in the Twin Cities. The OC is hosting a HUGE steam festival over the last weekend in July, in Dennison, OH (old Pennsy tracks). http://www.trainfestival2004.com/ In addition to at least three of their own steamers in operation, PM 1225 will be traveling over class 1 tracks from Michigan to attend, and if they finish rebuilding her in time, NKP 765 will be traveling over the NS from Ft Wayne. PM 1225 is scheduled for at least two of her own trips in Michigan this year. http://www.mstrp.com/schedule.htm So it does look like SOME steam operators are able to foot the bill for steam fantrips, or at least light moves over class 1's and regionals. All I know is that I catch 'em while I can! Ray Breyer -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of William Bigler Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 9:35 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions Jerry & Listers, As I remember, SP 4449, SP&S 700, UP engines, and MLW 261 probably won't run because of insurance issues, but I haven't heard any final word. From what I can surmise, Ohio Central is running, along with museum operations such as Cass, Strassburg, Nevada Northern, etc. As someone mentioned, the issue may be running on Class 1 railroads. However, from an insurance standpoint, why should this be different from running anywhere else? And I don't believe the Delaware & Lackawanna, whose tracks Steamtown uses, is class 1. Can anyone confirm? Bill Bigler ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 09:20:03 -0400 Subject: [PRR] 1954 Freight Car Fleet From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Thanks to all who assisted in filling in the available models that represent cars in the 1954 PRR freight car fleet. The page has developed nicely. http://kc.pennsyrr.com/freightops/54_fleet/ I will try to keep this page up-to-date with new releases; please feel free to assist me! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Walthers Troop Cars Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 09:32:09 -0400 AFAIK the X32s were used in commuter service to free up P70s for troop trains. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Ted Andrews Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2004 2:00 PM To: PRR Talk Subject: [PRR] Walthers Troop Cars PRR-Listers: Did these cars ever roam PRR tracks? Did they ever run combined with the Ex-X32 cars that were converted to troop service during WW2? What was the typical consist of these troop trains on the Pennsy? Were P70 coaches ever thrown into the consist? just wondering..... Ted ------=_NextPart_000_0154_01C43671.AA89D2E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Message

AFAIK the=20 X32s were used in commuter service to free up P70s for troop=20 trains.

regards,

Andy=20 Miller

-----Original Message-----
From: = PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Ted = Andrews
Sent:=20 Sunday, May 09, 2004 2:00 PM
To: PRR Talk
Subject: = [PRR]=20 Walthers Troop Cars

PRR-Listers:

Did these cars ever roam PRR tracks? Did they ever run combined = with the=20 Ex-X32 cars that were converted to troop service during WW2? What was = the=20 typical consist of these troop trains on the Pennsy? Were P70 coaches = ever=20 thrown into the consist?

just wondering.....

Ted

------=_NextPart_000_0154_01C43671.AA89D2E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Steamtown -- Altoona Museum -- 1361 Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 09:25:22 -0500 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] Steamtown -- Altoona Museum -- 1361 Thread-Index: AcQ0RGPxoe0xQA2jRPConfTKLtyc7gCVXOww From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: "Ted Andrews" , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 May 2004 14:25:23.0570 (UTC) FILETIME=[A1818520:01C4369A] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Your house premiums may well increase if you try to obtain full value for your models if they are stolen. On my home insurance, I have a "fine arts" rider for which I declare the market value of the models, and I will receive this value if they are stolen. I pay extra for this. Without this rider, a private insurance company may - or - may not reimburse you for the full value of the models stolen. And I've been told that if they reimburse for full value, they most likely will cancel. The NMRA offers insurance to assure that you receive full value for your models if they are stolen. This may be a better value than obtaining a rider on your current home owners insurance. -----Original Message----- From: Ted Andrews [mailto:ted_andrews@msn.com] Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 9:44 AM To: jerry@pennsyrr.com; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Steamtown -- Altoona Museum -- 1361 All I can say is Thanks allot sue-happy society. The liberal tort laws that enable lawyers=20 and their plantiffs to base their case not on the truth but rather how much=20 money the defendent has have directly influenced what happened in Steamtown.=20 What is next will the excursions pulled be diesels. .....I wonder if my house premimums will go up because I have models of=20 steam engines in my basement. Ted >From: Jerry Britton >To: PRR-Talk LIST >Subject: [PRR] Steamtown -- Altoona Museum -- 1361 >Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 10:07:23 -0400 > >Steamtown has announced a suspension of all steam excursions due to=20 >skyrocketing insurance costs... > > http://www.nps.gov/stea/excursion2004.htm > >Obviously there will be a similar impact on the Altoona Museum if/when K4s=20 >#1361 is ever restored to service. >----------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 09:13:24 -0700 Subject: [PRR] Capitals in car letters From: Greg Ritacco Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Hi Group, I'm just catching up with my PRR-Talk posts and for what it's worth, my copies of passenger car lettering details dated from 6-12-01 and obsoleted 4-12-38 show all upper case letters for passenger equipment. I.E. BM70K. HOWEVER, the notes are hand written. Also the cars are designated in an interesting way: MP --- E 54 That's the best I can type it, almost like a fraction. Also, wooden equipment is designated all upper but the first letter is much bigger, as in PK. There were no dashes on any of the designations. Greg. --Apple-Mail-2-671705835 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII Hi Group, I'm just catching up with my PRR-Talk posts and for what it's worth, my copies of passenger car lettering details dated from 6-12-01 and obsoleted 4-12-38 show all upper case letters for passenger equipment. I.E. BM70K. HOWEVER, the notes are hand written. Also the cars are designated in an interesting way: MP --- E 54 That's the best I can type it, almost like a fraction. Also, wooden equipment is designated all upper but the first letter is much bigger, as in PK. There were no dashes on any of the designations. Greg. --Apple-Mail-2-671705835-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Kirkpatrick" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Insurance & Steam Excursions Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 09:03:35 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: TWIMC, I've been told the "losses in the stock market" theory is a red herring put out by lawyers. Most insurance companies don't invest in stocks; they invest their reserves in bonds and Treasury notes. These didn't crash like the stock market did in 2000-2002. In any event, the point is that not only steam roads, but all tourist operations as well as main line railroads are facing an insurance crisis which makes many operations prohibitively expensive. If you find a excursion that's operating, take it, grin and bear it. (And try not to add to the problem by filing spurious lawsuits....) Doug Kirkpatrick Medford, OR ----- Original Message ----- From: "James L. McDaniel" To: Cc: "prr Talk" Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 5:17 AM Subject: [PRR] Re: Insurance & Steam Excursions > For whatever reason, it has become increasingly expensive to insure any > unusual or risky event: steam locomotives, Iraqi oil tankers, doctors > and hospitals to mention a few. > > The folks who analyze this from medical malpractice viewpoints blame it > on several factors including lawsuit happy patients and lawyers (which > may or may not be true), "bad" doctors who aren't weeded out by Boards > of Medicine, shrinking numbers of competing companies offering medical > malpractice insurance, and huge losses in the stock market by the > remaining insurers who use market profits to fund reserves and pay > losses. My personal insurance as a physician has doubled in the last > year and will triple in two more (while my reimbursement is being cut by > most healthcare insurers.) The rates for our community hospital went up > 4 fold and continue to rise. > > I suspect that you could make the same case for the rising costs of > insurance for the steam railroad industry. > > Jim McDaniel, steamless in Delmarva > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown -- Altoona Museum -- 1361 - now insurance Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 11:20:58 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 May 2004 16:29:05.0656 (UTC) FILETIME=[E969F780:01C436AB] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi Y'all I am not an insurance expert. But: At age 65, experience is on my side. I live in a mobile home. My home owners specifically includes "all belongings". I contacted them about a year after buying the policy (Incidentally, I have Foremost, but through the AARP. No agent, all over the phone. Not a plug. No personal interest in Foremost.). They told me that as long as the items are "totally within the house", they are covered. The also said that as long as my policy is specifically designated "full value" that they would pay that amount. If - any insurance company drops you for making a legitimate claim, you have government recourse. Now, one caveat. Do not make it a habit of making claims for every little thing. I had roof problems (Ever hear of TX storms? LOL ) and when I contacted roof repair, they told me it would cost $500. My deductible is $250. But I thought, get it repaired, pay that extra $250 to "help" Foremost and keep this claim off the record. (You also know that even if you just "call" the insurance company with an inquiry, it goes against you.) This way, I keep my premiums down. And, it the repairs were over that $500, I certainly would have made the claim. My point is. Keep those claims down. Lastly, when I did have major roof damage and made the claim, the insurance covered the entire re-do. Over $2,000 minus my $250. I have had excellent repore (sp) with them. Some of my models are worth more than I can imagine, what with buying a brass loco for $40 and latest book value is over $400. And have seen it on eBay for $1,000. Theft is minimal. It's mainly fire and such that scares me. My apologies to Jerry for non-RR content. But beg your indulgence in a very important matter. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, Proud SPF PRRTHS #1204 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.677 / Virus Database: 439 - Release Date: 05/04/2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 13:21:54 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Insurance & Steam Excursions Greetings to all: Here's more on why insurance is not the only thing muddying the waters in Scranton. http://www.scrantontimes.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=11442767&BRD=2185&PAG=461&dept_id=415898&rfi=8 Run by knowledgeable and railroad-friendly folks (read: sober, dry-eyed business professionals who also happen to be not-so-closeted railfans) the Lackawanna County Rail Authority has been very helpful in arranging access for, and working with, Steamtown, private-enterprise short-line freight operations, and others. The county's desire to take over LCRA may make sense from some administration standpoint, but almost certainly bears the marks of partisanship. If there's any city in Pennsylvania where outright partisan politics dominates local government more than in Scranton, I have yet to see it, though Erie and Philadelphia would be close contenders. Let's hope that this is resolved so that when PRR 1361 is back in steam, it won't end up limited to the NPS yard shuttle but rather, gets to stretch its legs on the ex-DL&W main line. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. Douglas Kirkpatrick wrote: >TWIMC, > >I've been told the "losses in the stock market" theory is a red herring put >out by lawyers. Most insurance companies don't invest in stocks; they invest >their reserves in bonds and Treasury notes. These didn't crash like the >stock market did in 2000-2002. > >In any event, the point is that not only steam roads, but all tourist >operations as well as main line railroads are facing an insurance crisis >which makes many operations prohibitively expensive. If you find a excursion >that's operating, take it, grin and bear it. (And try not to add to the >problem by filing spurious lawsuits....) > >Doug Kirkpatrick >Medford, OR > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "James L. McDaniel" >To: >Cc: "prr Talk" >Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 5:17 AM >Subject: [PRR] Re: Insurance & Steam Excursions > > > > >>For whatever reason, it has become increasingly expensive to insure any >>unusual or risky event: steam locomotives, Iraqi oil tankers, doctors >>and hospitals to mention a few. >> >>The folks who analyze this from medical malpractice viewpoints blame it >>on several factors including lawsuit happy patients and lawyers (which >>may or may not be true), "bad" doctors who aren't weeded out by Boards >>of Medicine, shrinking numbers of competing companies offering medical >>malpractice insurance, and huge losses in the stock market by the >>remaining insurers who use market profits to fund reserves and pay >>losses. My personal insurance as a physician has doubled in the last >>year and will triple in two more (while my reimbursement is being cut by >>most healthcare insurers.) The rates for our community hospital went up >>4 fold and continue to rise. >> >>I suspect that you could make the same case for the rising costs of >>insurance for the steam railroad industry. >> >>Jim McDaniel, steamless in Delmarva >> >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. >> >> >> > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > --------------070505040006000606000602 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Greetings to all:

Here's more on why insurance is not the only thing muddying the waters in Scranton.

http://www.scrantontimes.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=11442767&BRD=2185&PAG=461&dept_id=415898&rfi=8

Run by knowledgeable and railroad-friendly folks (read: sober, dry-eyed business professionals who also happen to be not-so-closeted railfans) the Lackawanna County Rail Authority has been very helpful in arranging access for, and working with, Steamtown, private-enterprise short-line freight operations, and others. The county's desire to take over LCRA may make sense from some administration standpoint, but almost certainly bears the marks of partisanship. If there's any city in Pennsylvania where outright partisan politics dominates local government more than in Scranton, I have yet to see it, though Erie and Philadelphia would be close contenders.

Let's hope that this is resolved so that when PRR 1361 is back in steam, it won't end up limited to the NPS yard shuttle but rather, gets to stretch its legs on the ex-DL&W main line.

Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, Pa.

Douglas Kirkpatrick wrote:

TWIMC,

I've been told the "losses in the stock market" theory is a red herring put
out by lawyers. Most insurance companies don't invest in stocks; they invest
their reserves in bonds and Treasury notes. These didn't crash like the
stock market did in 2000-2002.

In any event, the point is that not only steam roads, but all tourist
operations as well as main line railroads are facing an insurance crisis
which makes many operations prohibitively expensive. If you find a excursion
that's operating, take it, grin and bear it. (And try not to add to the
problem by filing spurious lawsuits....)

Doug Kirkpatrick
Medford, OR


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James L. McDaniel" <jlmcdaniel@esva.net>
To: <davep@quik.com>
Cc: "prr Talk" <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 5:17 AM
Subject: [PRR] Re: Insurance & Steam Excursions

For whatever reason, it has become increasingly expensive to insure any
unusual or risky event: steam locomotives, Iraqi oil tankers, doctors
and hospitals to mention a few.

The folks who analyze this from medical malpractice viewpoints blame it
on several factors including lawsuit happy patients and lawyers (which
may or may not be true), "bad" doctors who aren't weeded out by Boards
of Medicine, shrinking numbers of competing companies offering medical
malpractice insurance, and huge losses in the stock market by the
remaining insurers who use market profits to fund reserves and pay
losses.  My personal insurance as a physician has doubled in the last
year and will triple in two more (while my reimbursement is being cut by
most healthcare insurers.) The rates for our community hospital went up
4 fold and continue to rise.

I suspect that you could make the same case for the rising costs of
insurance for the steam railroad industry.

Jim McDaniel, steamless in Delmarva


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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--------------070505040006000606000602-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 16:50:46 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Cleveland stations In a message dated 5/10/04 12:21:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, chrisandbelton@comcast.net writes: > Subj: RE: [PRR] Cleveland stations > Date: 5/10/04 12:21:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time > From: chrisandbelton@comcast.net > To: RickTipton@aol.com, PRR-Talk@dsop.com, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com, > PRR@yahoogroups.com, bejm@eeg.ccf.org > Sent from the Internet > > > > The PRR did indeed serve another station in Cleveland - the old Union > Station located on the waterfront between the downtown and the NYC mainline. > This was the second Union station in Cleveland, built in 1866 after the > original Union Station burned in 1864. It sat near W 9th Street at the > lakeshore. It lost most of its traffic when Terminal Tower opened in 1930. > It served the PRR after that until 1953 and was demolished in 1959. Here's > a link to a picture of the station in its heyday: > http://www.west2k.com/ohpix/clevelandunionold.jpg > > Chris Baker > PRRT&HS #1918 Thanks Chris, This confirms the date the PRR shifted to 55th Street (1953). It also confirms that PRR stayed in the ex-Union Depot which had been shared with the two NYC roads (Big Four and Lake Shore & Michigan Southern) until 1930. The Steam Powered Video map of Cleveland shows two stations on the lakeshore. One is labelled "Amtrak", so we know this is the present facility. The other is labelled the "PRR Station", but must actually be the old "Cleveland Union Depot". Pictures in Rehor suggest that the old, yellowed stonework I saw on my 2000? trip to Cleveland may have been from the access road snaking up to downtown on the hill above. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 16:50:46 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cleveland stations In a message dated 5/10/04 12:21:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, chrisandbelton@comcast.net writes: > Subj: RE: [PRR] Cleveland stations > Date: 5/10/04 12:21:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time > From: chrisandbelton@comcast.net > To: RickTipton@aol.com, PRR-Talk@dsop.com, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com, > PRR@yahoogroups.com, bejm@eeg.ccf.org > Sent from the Internet > > > > The PRR did indeed serve another station in Cleveland - the old Union > Station located on the waterfront between the downtown and the NYC mainline. > This was the second Union station in Cleveland, built in 1866 after the > original Union Station burned in 1864. It sat near W 9th Street at the > lakeshore. It lost most of its traffic when Terminal Tower opened in 1930. > It served the PRR after that until 1953 and was demolished in 1959. Here's > a link to a picture of the station in its heyday: > http://www.west2k.com/ohpix/clevelandunionold.jpg > > Chris Baker > PRRT&HS #1918 Thanks Chris, This confirms the date the PRR shifted to 55th Street (1953). It also confirms that PRR stayed in the ex-Union Depot which had been shared with the two NYC roads (Big Four and Lake Shore & Michigan Southern) until 1930. The Steam Powered Video map of Cleveland shows two stations on the lakeshore. One is labelled "Amtrak", so we know this is the present facility. The other is labelled the "PRR Station", but must actually be the old "Cleveland Union Depot". Pictures in Rehor suggest that the old, yellowed stonework I saw on my 2000? trip to Cleveland may have been from the access road snaking up to downtown on the hill above. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_25.47d13de3.2dd14526_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 5/10/04 12:21:05= AM Eastern Daylight Time, chrisandbelton@comcast.net writes:

Subj: RE: [PRR] Cleveland st= ations
Date: 5/10/04 12:21:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time
From: chrisandbelton@comcast.= net
To: RickTipton@aol.com, PRR-Talk@dsop.com, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com, PRR@yahoogroups.com, bejm@eeg.ccf.org
Sent from the Internet

The PRR did indeed serve another station in Cleveland - the old Union
Station located on the waterfront between the downtown and the NYC mainline.=
This was the second Union station in Cleveland, built in 1866 after the
original Union Station burned in 1864. It sat near W 9th Street at the
lakeshore. It lost most of its traffic when Terminal Tower opened in 1930. It served the PRR after that until 1953 and was demolished in 1959. He= re's
a link to a picture of the station in its heyday:
http://www.west2k.com/ohpix/clevelandunionold.jpg

Chris Baker
PRRT&HS #1918

Thanks Chris,

This confirms the date the PRR shifted to 55th Street (1953). It also=20= confirms that PRR stayed in the ex-Union Depot which had been shared with th= e two NYC roads (Big Four and Lake Shore & Michigan Southern) until 1930= .

The Steam Powered Video map of Cleveland shows two stations on the lakeshore= . One is labelled "Amtrak", so we know this is the present facility.&n= bsp; The other is labelled the "PRR Station", but must actually be the old "= Cleveland Union Depot". Pictures in Rehor suggest that the old, yellow= ed stonework I saw on my 2000? trip to Cleveland may have been from the acce= ss road snaking up to downtown on the hill above.

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_25.47d13de3.2dd14526_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers Troop Cars Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 16:29:33 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On May 10, 2004, at 8:32 AM, Andy Miller wrote: > AFAIK the X32s were used in commuter service to free up P70s for troop > trains. Well, not EXACTLY . If you reference the Keystone article on the X32 conversions you will find that the initial cars (P78 coaches) were built to ferry troops on liberty from Camp Atterbury (Indianna?) to the nearest city (HELP! Lines West brain cramp!) P78A, P78B and P78T ( a single trailer) coaches were subsequently built (or converted from "command cars" which were not used) for commuter service. These cars were lettered PENNSYLVANIA, retained their PRR freight numbers and did not get Allied Full Cushion Trucks. The P30 was built as a prototype Troop Sleeper and subsequently, 29 additional cars were built as P30A class Troop Sleepers. These cars were then leased to PULLMAN and operated as Troop Sleepers for the remainder of the war, with numbers in the Troop Sleeper series. The P30As were also equipped with Allied Full Cushion Trucks. Of note, these cars were built with porthole windows circa March-June 1943, but were were converted to square sash windows by November 1943, leaving but a 6 month window for porthole window P30A sleepers. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-2-690674814 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII On May 10, 2004, at 8:32 AM, Andy Miller wrote: Arial0000,0000,FFFFAFAIK the X32s were used in commuter service to free up P70s for troop trains. Well, not EXACTLY <. If you reference the Keystone article on the X32 conversions you will find that the initial cars (P78 coaches) were built to ferry troops on liberty from Camp Atterbury (Indianna?) to the nearest city (HELP! Lines West brain cramp!) P78A, P78B and P78T ( a single trailer) coaches were subsequently built (or converted from "command cars" which were not used) for commuter service. These cars were lettered PENNSYLVANIA, retained their PRR freight numbers and did not get Allied Full Cushion Trucks. The P30 was built as a prototype Troop Sleeper and subsequently, 29 additional cars were built as P30A class Troop Sleepers. These cars were then leased to PULLMAN and operated as Troop Sleepers for the remainder of the war, with numbers in the Troop Sleeper series. The P30As were also equipped with Allied Full Cushion Trucks. Of note, these cars were built with porthole windows circa March-June 1943, but were were converted to square sash windows by November 1943, leaving but a 6 month window for porthole window P30A sleepers. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-2-690674814-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 21:05:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown -- Altoona Museum -- 1361 The NMRA insurance is much less expensive than that of a rider on your home owner's policy. I looked into it several years ago finding the rider was almost three times the cost and did not provide as much coverage as the NMRA policy. Well worth the cost of an NMRA membership just to get the insurance. A frustration with many insurance companies is that they regard our train collections as toys and not collection. Read this as they will not insure for the full value. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 -------------------------------1084237556 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

The NMRA insurance is much less expensive than that of a rider o= n your home owner's policy. I looked into it several years ago finding= the rider was almost three times the cost and did not provide as much cover= age as the NMRA policy. Well worth the cost of an NMRA membership just= to get the insurance.

A frustration with many insurance companies is that they regard=20= our train collections as toys and not collection. Read this as they wi= ll not insure for the full value.

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS 7487
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ 2003<= /DIV> -------------------------------1084237556-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 21:50:54 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Cleveland stations X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 46 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 5/10/04 8:35:45 PM, jer@smellycat.com writes: << Also, while it is well-documented that the PRR never used Cleveland Union Terminal, what is less well-known is that the builders of CUT made provision for them to do so if they wanted to. >> OK, I am prepared to admit that my 1963 memories of taking the Pennsy to Philadelphia from the downtown Cleveland terminal may have been fuzzy and inaccurate. I do remember cabs from the office in the Illuminating Building out Euclid Avenue (?). In my long term memory is a recollection of a restaurant called the "Black Angus" on the right side of Euclid as we drove to 55th Street. I used to eat there; they had nice steaks at a reasonable price. The Cleveland office of the Pennsy was unique in that we also represented the administrative headquarters of the Akron-Barberton-Belt-Railroad-Company. This was significant because the ABB was, alphabetically, on the top of the list of all US class one railroads and, as such, the rails unions (all of them) se rved all Section Six notices on us, in the Illuminating Building. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers Troop Cars Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 23:12:13 -0500 MessageThanks for the correction, Andy, on the P78 and P78a converted = coaches. Except for about a dozen used for troop service from Camp = Atterbury to Indianapolis, other locations for leaves, etc, the = remaining majority were used in suburban service in Pittsburgh, Chicago, = etc, as you say. =20 I confused them with the 40 P30a cars which were troop sleepers also = converted from boxcars. These plus 5 or 6 PRR kitchen cars were leased = to Pullman and roamed the country in troop trains. Details in Fall 1998 = Keystone. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Andy Miller=20 To: 'Ted Andrews' ; 'PRR Talk'=20 Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 8:32 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Walthers Troop Cars AFAIK the X32s were used in commuter service to free up P70s for troop = trains. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Ted = Andrews Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2004 2:00 PM To: PRR Talk Subject: [PRR] Walthers Troop Cars PRR-Listers: Did these cars ever roam PRR tracks? Did they ever run combined with = the Ex-X32 cars that were converted to troop service during WW2? What = was the typical consist of these troop trains on the Pennsy? Were P70 = coaches ever thrown into the consist?=20 just wondering..... Ted ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C436E4.3AB3ECD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Message

Thanks for the correction, Andy, on the P78 and = P78a=20 converted coaches. Except for about a dozen used for troop service = from=20 Camp Atterbury to Indianapolis, other locations for leaves, etc, = the=20 remaining majority were used in suburban service in = Pittsburgh,=20 Chicago, etc, as you say.

I confused them with the 40 P30a cars which = were=20 troop sleepers also converted from boxcars. These plus 5 or 6 PRR = kitchen cars=20 were leased to Pullman and roamed the country in troop trains. = Details in=20 Fall 1998 Keystone.

Bob Zoeller

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Andy = Miller=20

To: 'Ted Andrews' ; 'PRR = Talk'

Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 8:32 = AM

Subject: RE: [PRR] Walthers = Troop=20 Cars

AFAIK the=20 X32s were used in commuter service to free up P70s for troop=20 trains.

regards,

Andy=20 Miller

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Ted = Andrews
Sent:=20 Sunday, May 09, 2004 2:00 PM
To: PRR = Talk
Subject: [PRR]=20 Walthers Troop Cars

PRR-Listers:

Did these cars ever roam PRR tracks? Did they ever run combined = with=20 the Ex-X32 cars that were converted to troop service during WW2? = What was=20 the typical consist of these troop trains on the Pennsy? Were P70 = coaches=20 ever thrown into the consist?

just wondering.....

Ted

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C436E4.3AB3ECD0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 08:39:04 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Bowser N8's -- More Paint Schemes Shipped From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <3016485B-A348-11D8-8D8D-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Public Service Announcement... The second batch of Bowser HO scale N8's has shipped. It includes the following additional paint schemes.... #56301 PRR Circle Keystone - Eastern Region #56303 PRR Circle Keystone - Pittsburgh #56305 PRR Shadow Keystone - Buckeye Region #56307 PRR Shadow Keystone - Chesapeake Region #56309 PRR Plain Keystone Red Body, black roof #56311 PRR Plain Keystone Red Body, Yellow Cupola, Buckeye Region #56313 "PEN" #56315 Conrail Blue - Large Logo #56316 Conrail Green Body #56318 Penn Central, P logo #56319 Penn Central ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] ID this car Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 12:40:04 +0000 From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Cleveland stations Bill Vigrass' Views Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 10:26:25 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <3501579F8815D511AEC6009027CCB5D357A083@HERZOGMGMT> Importance: Normal Return-Path: bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 May 2004 14:17:24.0897 (UTC) FILETIME=[AE9B9110:01C43762] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I asked emminent Cleveland historian Bill Vigrass to comment on this subject. His reply is repeated below. I think you will find it to be of interest: Bill Vigrass says: As far as I know the PRR had no plan to use CUT. BUT, the design of the CUT had a tunnel/ramp up from the CCC&STL in the flats to the coach yard which could have been used by PRR. It was never used and was severed by the new GCRTA Waterfront LRT line where it descends to the old ERIE depot. PRR stopped using old Union Depot at West 9th and Lakeside before it abandoned passenger train service and used E. 55th St.at Euclid Ave as its only station in Cleveland. The trains still deadheaded to Union Depot where there was a small yard, I think (not sure). I am sure that PRR was still using Union Depot in 1948 when they inaugurated the Steeler, 2:45 hr train CLE PGH via Alliance, four cars pulled by a K4. Willis McCaleb then photographer for NKP and long time friend took me, then a messenger for ERIE RR down to the waterfront and we watched it leave. ERIE later countered with its STEEL KING from CUT to PGH via ERIE Yotown P&LE after ERIE moved into CUT. I hand carried the agreement between ERIE and CUT to obtain signatures while a messenger for ERIE RR's Comptroller, T. J. Tobin, summer of 1948. So you see, ERIE could not have moved into CUT without me! Bill, former Cleveland resident, and former employee ERIE RR Co. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Jordak Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 9:28 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Re: Cleveland stations Rick Tipton wrote: > The Steam Powered Video map of Cleveland shows two stations on the > lakeshore. > One is labelled "Amtrak", so we know this is the present facility. The > other is labelled the "PRR Station", but must actually be the old "Cleveland Union > Depot". Pictures in Rehor suggest that the old, yellowed stonework I saw on > my 2000? trip to Cleveland may have been from the access road snaking up to > downtown on the hill above. If you go today to near where I think West 9th Street passes under the Shoreway (Route 2), there is a driveway going down to what is now a parking lot, that has substantial stone retaining walls along it, with PRR stanchions and railings, or at least it did as of a few years ago. Maybe if the weather is nice tomorrow and the duty pager is quiet, I'll walk over there at lunchtime and see if the PRR stanchions and railing are still there. Also, while it is well-documented that the PRR never used Cleveland Union Terminal, what is less well-known is that the builders of CUT made provision for them to do so if they wanted to. When the Greater Cleveland RTA was building the Waterfront light-rail line about 5-6 years ago, they escavated a pair of ramps on either side of the CUT viaduct to bring the light rail tracks down to street level below the viaduct. The tracks were laid going towards Lake Erie on the old NYC/Big Four mainline, later known as the Clark Branch. While all this escavation was going on, the work crews unearthed a tunnel. Construction was halted briefly while my friend Blaine Hays, who was the RTA's historian and is a foremost expert on traction and transporation in the Cleveland area, went to the site and investigated it, and from what they could figure out, it looked like the tunnel would have provided for a track that to come up into CUT off of the old Big Four. PRR trains could have run downtown, past the old Union Station, turned south on the Big Four east of the Cuyahoga River drawbridge, and then made a sharp left and climbed up into CUT. Next time Blaine comes over for a work session on the layout, I'll have to ask him about all that again and make sure I have my facts straight, but if I remember all of this correctly, the PRR could have used CUT if they wanted to. Considering the low number of trains that they ran to and from Cleveland compared with the NYC, Nickel Plate, Erie, and B&O, and the cost of rent as a tenant in CUT compared to the cost of operating their station at Euclid and East 55th, it probably makes sense from an economic standpoint why the PRR didn't exercise that option. -JWJ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 10:37:45 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Joint terminal operation All this recent talk of Cleveland Union terminal and the PRR's refusal to use it leads me to wonder if it was a case of bitter rivalry with the NYC. Besides Cincinnati, were there any other terminals which serviced both the NYC and the PRR? Regards, Andy Miller "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 10:37:45 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-reply-to: <000701c4298f$0b1eda50$6401a8c0@ABBuchan> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: All this recent talk of Cleveland Union terminal and the PRR's refusal to use it leads me to wonder if it was a case of bitter rivalry with the NYC. Besides Cincinnati, were there any other terminals which serviced both the NYC and the PRR? Regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Scott Cessna" Subject: [PRR] D78F Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 10:24:50 -0400 Looking for interior photos of a "modernized" D78F diner for use in = cleaning/restoring ours here in the Museum yard. Color would be great = but could use any help. Haven't yet gone out and climbed around under = her but I'm assuming this car had locking pins on the trucks that are = releasable from outside the car? We need to crane her and the operator = asked.=20 Thanks everyone. Scott Cessna ------=_NextPart_000_0132_01C43742.31173430 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

Looking for interior photos of a = "modernized" D78F=20 diner for use in cleaning/restoring ours here in the Museum yard. = Color=20 would be great but could use any help. Haven't yet gone out = and=20 climbed around under her but I'm assuming this car had locking pins on = the=20 trucks that are releasable from outside the car? We need to crane = her and=20 the operator asked.

Thanks everyone.

Scott Cessna

------=_NextPart_000_0132_01C43742.31173430-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy Williamson Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 09:53:40 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Joint terminal operation At 09:37 AM 5/11/2004, Andy Miller wrote: >All this recent talk of Cleveland Union terminal and the PRR's refusal to >use it leads me to wonder if it was a case of bitter rivalry with the NYC. Actually the bitter rivalry was between General Atterbury and the Van Sweringen brothers. This stems from the consolidation plans being proposed during the 20's. Randy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 09:53:40 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Joint terminal operation Subject: RE: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 10:02:38 -0500 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Thread-Index: AcQ3Z0F0kxRD/4WYTRqBknN7h8nS1wAAY4jg From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: "Andy Miller" , , "PRR-FAX" , "PRR-Talk" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 May 2004 15:02:39.0565 (UTC) FILETIME=[00AD07D0:01C43769] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Buffalo, Indianapolis, Englewood, Il. St. Louis. =20 -----Original Message----- From: Andy Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 9:38 AM To: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; 'PRR-FAX'; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: [PRR] Joint terminal operation All this recent talk of Cleveland Union terminal and the PRR's refusal to use it leads me to wonder if it was a case of bitter rivalry with the NYC. Besides Cincinnati, were there any other terminals which serviced both the NYC and the PRR? Regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 10:02:38 -0500 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Thread-Index: AcQ3Z0F0kxRD/4WYTRqBknN7h8nS1wAAY4jg From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: "Andy Miller" , , "PRR-FAX" , "PRR-Talk" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 May 2004 15:02:39.0565 (UTC) FILETIME=[00AD07D0:01C43769] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Buffalo, Indianapolis, Englewood, Il. St. Louis. =20 -----Original Message----- From: Andy Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 9:38 AM To: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; 'PRR-FAX'; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: [PRR] Joint terminal operation All this recent talk of Cleveland Union terminal and the PRR's refusal to use it leads me to wonder if it was a case of bitter rivalry with the NYC. Besides Cincinnati, were there any other terminals which serviced both the NYC and the PRR? Regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 08:32:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Charyna Subject: [PRR] Fwd: Railroad Art on PCN From: "PCN Publicity" Subject: Railroad Art on PCN Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 10:13:44 -0400 From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 12:03:55 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <3501579F8815D511AEC6009027CCB5D357A188@HERZOGMGMT> Importance: Normal Return-Path: bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 May 2004 15:54:54.0972 (UTC) FILETIME=[4D862BC0:01C43770] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Try Erie , Detroit, Toledo and Columbus -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Cadwell, Marvin L Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 11:03 AM To: Andy Miller; PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; PRR-FAX; PRR-Talk Subject: RE: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Buffalo, Indianapolis, Englewood, Il. St. Louis. -----Original Message----- From: Andy Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 9:38 AM To: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; 'PRR-FAX'; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: [PRR] Joint terminal operation All this recent talk of Cleveland Union terminal and the PRR's refusal to use it leads me to wonder if it was a case of bitter rivalry with the NYC. Besides Cincinnati, were there any other terminals which serviced both the NYC and the PRR? Regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 12:26:43 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Buffalo Central Terminal served both PRR and NYC. It was built and operated by NYC which had a slew of trains per day each way - Pennsy only had a few. TH&B also used it, I believe. NKP and DL&W shared a terminal downtown, and LV had it's own terminal downtown. LV moved out to E. Buffalo when construction of the NYS Thruway displaced them. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Miller" To: ; "'PRR-FAX'" ; "'PRR-Talk'" Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 10:37 AM Subject: [PRR] Joint terminal operation > All this recent talk of Cleveland Union terminal and the PRR's refusal to > use it leads me to wonder if it was a case of bitter rivalry with the NYC. > Besides Cincinnati, were there any other terminals which serviced both the > NYC and the PRR? > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 13:10:11 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-MDRemoteIP: 192.0.1.150 X-Return-Path: geshick@velocity.net X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Union Station in Erie, PA. was on the NYC and Nickel Plate main lines. PRR had trackage rights to the station. Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: "Andy Miller" ; ; "PRR-FAX" ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 11:02 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Buffalo, Indianapolis, Englewood, Il. St. Louis. -----Original Message----- From: Andy Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 9:38 AM To: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; 'PRR-FAX'; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: [PRR] Joint terminal operation All this recent talk of Cleveland Union terminal and the PRR's refusal to use it leads me to wonder if it was a case of bitter rivalry with the NYC. Besides Cincinnati, were there any other terminals which serviced both the NYC and the PRR? Regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 14:07:56 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <3501579F8815D511AEC6009027CCB5D357A208@HERZOGMGMT> Importance: Normal Return-Path: bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 May 2004 17:58:56.0599 (UTC) FILETIME=[A1145670:01C43781] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: NADA. Union Station was NOT on the NKP tracks. NKP had their own station at 19th & Parade or thereabouts. It was "Union Station" because the PRR and NYC shared it. Don't remember PRR using NYC tracks to get out of town. (At least not to Corry) They used NYC west of town but the passenger trains were long gone from that line before my watch. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Shickler Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 1:10 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Union Station in Erie, PA. was on the NYC and Nickel Plate main lines. PRR had trackage rights to the station. Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: "Andy Miller" ; ; "PRR-FAX" ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 11:02 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Buffalo, Indianapolis, Englewood, Il. St. Louis. -----Original Message----- From: Andy Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 9:38 AM To: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; 'PRR-FAX'; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: [PRR] Joint terminal operation All this recent talk of Cleveland Union terminal and the PRR's refusal to use it leads me to wonder if it was a case of bitter rivalry with the NYC. Besides Cincinnati, were there any other terminals which serviced both the NYC and the PRR? Regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 12:26:43 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Buffalo Central Terminal served both PRR and NYC. It was built and operated by NYC which had a slew of trains per day each way - Pennsy only had a few. TH&B also used it, I believe. NKP and DL&W shared a terminal downtown, and LV had it's own terminal downtown. LV moved out to E. Buffalo when construction of the NYS Thruway displaced them. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 11:57:16 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: RE: [PRR] Joint terminal operation, Erie PA From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] BLI....J-1 or J-1a?? Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 19:21:31 +0000 Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 16:17:04 -0400 From: "Mark D. Bej" Subject: [PRR] Re: Cleveland stations > > Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) > > From: "William Bigler" > > Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 15:29:26 -0400 Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 16:17:04 -0400 From: "Mark D. Bej" Subject: [PRR] Re: Cleveland stations > > Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) > > From: "William Bigler" > > Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 15:29:26 -0400 Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 16:23:20 -0400 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI....J-1 or J-1a?? Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 5/11/2004 3:21:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ted_andrews@msn.com writes: > So what version is BLI doing? J1 is what they are showing. IIRC the difference was a cast frame vs. welded frame. > > What is the difference between the Ohio Division - Eastern and Eastern Division began at US tower in Pittsburgh and went to the Crestline Division point. Don't recall the exact location it may have been Canton > Division-Panhandle? Panhandle began at PH tower in Pittsburgh and went to the division point with the Columbus Division Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 16:24:37 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-MDRemoteIP: 192.0.1.150 X-Return-Path: geshick@velocity.net X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: prr-talk@dsop.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Not being familiar with the NKP, I assumed* they used the Union Station, seeing as they ran so close together (though there is much more separation there than further east). The track charts I have don't fully show the P&E coming into the station. I assumed* they connected w/ the NYC to reach the station. Does anyone have track charts of the station? In the following picture: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/images/eriest3.jpg (not taking anything for granted anymore) it appears to be facing east, with the station on the left. It looks to me as there may be as many as 10 sets of tracks. If the P&E had its own tracks, they would likely be on the far right, correct? How many did they have? This chart http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/images/od_w2.gif doesn't show west of Parade St., but it would suggest two (the dotted line at the top being the NYC). * - the adage proves itself once again. Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Buchan" To: "'Jerry Shickler'" Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 2:56 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Joint terminal operation > Jerry: > > I didn't think that the NKP was party to the Union Station agreement, > only LS&MS, P&E and E&P.. > > Al > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 16:51:39 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI....J-1 or J-1a?? MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ted, BLI 2-10-4 locomotives represents a "Cast Frame" J. What does this mean? All J1a's had Cast Frames while some, half? of the J1's had Cast Frames. So if the model represents a Cast Frame J, then the model is good for either the J1 and the J1a. I will have to look into the numbers again that BLI is doing to see if they chose correct ones, but I think they did. I know 6418, the J1a is correct. The tel-tel sign that the BLI J's represent the "Cast Frame" Locos is that it features that little "hump" on the pilot above the coupler. For some reason, Cast Frame J's had this. All J1a's and as I said above, many of the J1's did as well. Only J1's had "Fabricated" Frames, which we know the BLI does not represent. So, the model is either, just be sure the number matches a Cast Frame J number. Photo evidence is the only way to tell....Gary PS: My mentor on J1's is now on line. John, if I screwed something up, chime in...... Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 17:01:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Joint terminal operation From: Jamie Bothwell In-Reply-To: <20040511185716.88168.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-Id: <66F96AF4-A38E-11D8-AF5B-000393A994E0@verizon.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out008.verizon.net from [141.158.56.244] at Tue, 11 May 2004 15:59:56 -0500 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, Don't forget Mackinaw City, MI at the northern tip of the lower peninsula and the end of the GR&I. The Pennsy line from Petosky came in from the southwest and the NYC line from Indian River and Topinabee came in from the south. The NYC train was the Northerner and the PRR train was, of course the Northern Arrow. It must be the smallest union station around. In 1952 it saw two trains. I know the PRR ran into the 1960's. I'm not sure about the NYC. Jamie Bothwell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 17:03:52 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI....J-1 or J-1a?? MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ted, I wanted to add this in my last post but forgot. To get the idea of the Pilot "Hump" spotting feature, look on page 91 of Pennsy Power. Pictured there are 2 photos of 6474, a J1 and 1 photo of 6444, another J1. Notice that 6444 has a hump above the coupler and 6474 lacks this. Although they are both J1's, 6444 is a Cast Frame J1 and the 6474 is a Fabricated Frame J1. Now look on page 92. Top photo depicts a "Cast Frame" J1a, # 6432. We know ALL J1a's had Cast Frames so all photos of J1a's and the J1's that show this "hump" are Cast Frame Locos. Again, from the photos and reports from people who saw the BLI J's, their model will be a Cast Frame J1a and J1, not the Fabricated Frame J1.......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Joint terminal operation, Erie PA Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 17:46:02 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20040511185716.88168.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2739.300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: The Union Station contracts were between the LS&MS, E&P and P&E. The PRR passenger trains typically used the south side platform at Union Station, NYC Track 63 (a.k.a. PRR Psgr Track) and Track 67 (a.k.a. New Connection to PRR). Both had easy access to OD yard. The PRR freights were routed around Union Station via the E&P/P&E Lake Track (a.k.a. Lake Front Branch from Elm to Dock Jct.) where the P&E and E&P ownership ended 50' east of the State Street crossing right on the lake front. Re: The only [PRR] connection I saw to the Nickel Plate was at Dock Junction where it notes: N. Y. C. & St. L. Ry. Conn via N. Y. C. R. R. Based on a NYC Erie facilities track diagram I have (1949), the NKP connected with the NYC at Wesleyville Yard vic MP 85 via NYC Track 139 (east of Union Station) . The NYC track diagram and another PRR facilities diagram I have shows the NKP connecting with the NYC via a "Connecting RR" (NYC Track 113) vic. MP 88 (west of Union Station) just south of 12th and Liberty Streets. However, I don't believe it was an interchange per se, as it appears to be a connecting track so both lines could serve the Erie Forge Co. and other industries in that area. The PRR (P&E) connected with the NKP east of OD yard just south on the NYC's Wesleyville Yard. The PRR connected with the NYC at various places including Girard Jct (E&P)., Dock Jct. (E&P), Wesleyville Yard (P&E), Union Station/OD yard (P&E), and interchange with the E&P in the vic. of Liberty Street, one block east of MP 88 via NYC Track 94 (a.k.a. E&P Interchange) The PRR (E&P) also connected with the B&LE vic.12th and Cascade Streets. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 18:41:35 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI....J-1 or J-1a?? >Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI....J-1 or J-1a?? >From: "Gary Mittner" From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 19:04:40 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <009501c43795$fb255880$960100c0@ges> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2739.300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Re: It looks to me as there may be as many as 10 sets of tracks. If the P&E had its own tracks, they would likely be on the far right, correct? Yes, they were to the far right. See my earlier post on this subject. According to the NYC track diagram there were 10 tracks through the station. From north to south they were Track 114/144 Perm siding/North Station Siding, Track 24 No 1. North Siding, Track 3 W'wd Main, Track 1 W'wd Main, Track 2 E'wd Main, Track 4 E'wd Main, Track 55 South Running Track, Track 63 PRR Psgr, Track 67 New Conn. to PRR and Track 87 Morton's No 1. Island platforms were between Tracks 3 and 1, 2 and 4, and 63 and 67, which is confusing as the photo seems to show four platforms while the 1949 diagram only shows three The photo was taken looking east from No. 1 Track, the train is an E'wd on Track 2. Re: This chart http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/images/od_w2.gif doesn't show west of Parade St., but it would suggest two (the dotted line at the top being the NYC). Yes the dotted line would be the NYC, Track 55. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Rowilki@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 20:17:04 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Joint terminal operation, Erie PA X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 139 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: It is now understood the the Erie, PA union station was served by both PRR lines and the NYC -and was not served by the NKP. There is one other RR that served Erie with passenger service - the Bessemer & Lake Erie - which until some time in the early 50's had a train from Greenville, PA and back 5 days a week. I remember seeing it and as I recall it was a locomotive and one car.. Does anyone know the station used by the Bessemer - was it the Union Sta. or did it have its own? Dick Wilkison ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Rowilki@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 20:17:04 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Joint terminal operation, Erie PA X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 139 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: It is now understood the the Erie, PA union station was served by both PRR lines and the NYC -and was not served by the NKP. There is one other RR that served Erie with passenger service - the Bessemer & Lake Erie - which until some time in the early 50's had a train from Greenville, PA and back 5 days a week. I remember seeing it and as I recall it was a locomotive and one car.. Does anyone know the station used by the Bessemer - was it the Union Sta. or did it have its own? Dick Wilkison ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 21:27:26 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI....J-1 or J-1a?? MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ted, I heard back from a J1 fan I mentioned before. He is new the the net and wanted me to post his reply. He added a bit more. Here was his message: E-mail message yo, gary..... =A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 looks like you got it pretty good !!=A0=A0=A0 only the first twenty five locos, all J-1s, #'s 6450-6474,=A0 have the fabricated frame feature, along with the smoothly rounded pilot top.=A0=A0 b.t.w.=A0 the center section of the pilot was part of the frame casting, so the hump was in fact, cast into the whole structure. we must then assume.......if we dare.....that the pilots on the first 25=A0 J-1s were put together much like a K-4 pilot being applied in the post-war years.=A0=A0=A0=A0 there is also a difference in boiler plate material, and hence weight, between the two classes.=A0=A0=A0 as far as accessories go, it would appear that except for frame related parts on the first 25 locos, everything would be pretty much interchangeable throughout the whole series.=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 the presence of outside sanders, and smoothside cabs ( Q-2 style ) was almost certainly limited to the first 25 J-1s............so b.l.i. owners won't need to be concerned about that stuff ( famous last words !!)=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 but don't forget to put on that air bottle (on the Power Reverse) , if they left it off, and hopefully they will have fixed the lack of cold water pump, and attendant feed pipe, or we'll never get out of altoona !!! =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 jaygee ...............Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 19:34:58 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] WAS: Joint terminal operation, Erie PA, NOW: B&LE station Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 20:17:13 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof