RE: [PRR] J1 at Enola?

From: Prr6100@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 11:47:02 EST Subject: [PRR] M-1 -------------------------------1067705222 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone heard about the Broadway Limited M-1's lately? Are they still on time to be released in November or has it been moved back? Thanks. -------------------------------1067705222 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Has anyone heard abo= ut the Broadway Limited M-1's lately? Are they still on time to be rel= eased in November or has it been moved back? Thanks.<= /HTML> -------------------------------1067705222-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: [PRR] Looking for Walthers Pennsy 4-4-2 Stock 932-6707 Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 13:18:59 -0500

Has anyone seen any of these? I finally decided to pick one up and I think I may have waited too long. I have searched, but most everyone seems to be out.

Thanks,

Eric

--- Eric Lauterbach

--- ealauterbach@earthlink.net

--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.

It is now listed as being shipped in December on BLI's website. I am getting two of these and hope they are here before Christmas.

Eric

--- Eric Lauterbach

--- ealauterbach@earthlink.net

--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.

----- Original Message -----

From:

To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com

Sent: 11/1/03 6:47:02 AM

Subject: [PRR] M-1

Has anyone heard about the Broadway Limited M-1's lately? Are they still on time to be released in November or has it been moved back? Thanks.

----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: [PRR] For Sale - BLI M-1a/M-1b Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 14:29:52 -0400 We still have unallocated Broadway Limited M-1a and M-1b locomotives available. Please contact me off list for info if you need one. Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com featuring almost 10,000 in stock items 90A Jersey Avenue New Brunswick, NJ 08901 732-565-1555 Voice 732-565-1005 FAX ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] GP7/9 - alive and well in South Jersey Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 13:39:59 -0500 Hi All, There has been some banter on the S Scale list about GP7. I have something to add to it. The property of my new work backs right up to the Atlantic City line. I go the back of the property sometimes at lunch to watch New Jersey Transit roll by at 60+ MPH. Yesterday afternoon was wonderful weather in South Jersey. I am the purchasing agent for my work, and was looking to get out for a little while. There was an order of cut glass ready in Hammonton that I volunteered to go pick up. I don't remember the last time I have been in downtown Hammonton. I was about 5 cars back from an intersection that included a grade crossing. I was turning left just before the tracks. Of course I thought while waiting for the light it would be nice to see a train now. I no sooner thought that and the crossing gates dropped! I thought it was going to be a NJT train, but luckily I was wrong. To my total surprise it was a GP7/9 at about 30 MPH, still making a living 50+ years later! It had about 20 cars in tow. I could not tell if it was a GP7 or a GP9. It is difficult to read the builders plate from 150 feet and the engine at 30 MPH. If I were a little closer to the grade crossing I would have chased it for sure! I was in complete shock, so I did not see the markings. It was similar to B&M blue. I am pretty sure that is the first GP9 I have ever seen running, let alone in revenue service. Does anyone know what the road is? Is it based out of Winslow Junction? Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Kessler" Subject: [PRR] RE: PRR-Talk Digest - 11/01/03 Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 12:44:51 -0800 Dennis and all: Thanks for the suggestion. I have checked the Utah Pacific web site where these parts are illustrated: http://www.internettrains.com/internettrains/utpaclocdetp.html That antenna mast is the same part I used more than 20 years ago to model the train phone antennas on a PRR GP30. Not quite right for the GP30 , but this was before the Cal-Scale masts were available. The needed part will have two legs and a cross-member forming an inverted U-shaped support with a rod-like mast rising maybe 6 inches from the cross-member. One thing is certain. I will be buying pre-war Falls or Colonial car sides from you to use the Custom Finishes parts I have. Bob Kessler -----Original Message----- From: Prr1187@aol.com [mailto:Prr1187@aol.com] Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 8:36 PM To: robertke@comcast.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Antenna Bracket Castings for PRR Lounges Bob, et al, For postwar cars in HO scale, Utah Pacific makes the single post antenna masts either in brass, Walther's catalog #755-91 or in plastic, #755-92. Kind regards, Dennis Sautters Laser Horizons In a message dated 10/31/03 4:20:30 PM, robertke@comcast.net writes: << I must not have had my glasses on when I looked at that photo of Sassafras Falls. The Custom Finishes A-181 antenna supports are correct for the pre-WW2 Falls, Colonial and Harbor sleeper/lounge cars, as well as the Narrows and View observation lounges, but not the post WW2 Pullman sleeper/lounges and sleeper/lounge/observation cars. Sorry about that. I am temporarily at a loss as to how to model the antenna for my NKP Falls car. Bob Kessler >> Narrows and View observation lounges, but not the post WW2 Pullman sleeper/lounges and sleeper/lounge/observation cars. Sorry about that. I am temporarily at a loss as to how to model the antenna for my NKP Falls car. Bob Kessler >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 18:41:36 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] GP7/9 - alive and well in South Jersey Southern Railroad of New Jersey has service out of Winslow Junction, as well as the line to Salem further west. Dunno about paint schemes they use, but Dale Woodland's "Seashore Lines" column in November Railpace Magazine reports that SRNJ GP 9 100 was in service on the Salem line in September, and GP10 102 in service out of Winslow Junction. Dale notes that there has been a substantial increase in traffic out of Winslow, with both day and night runs on the Pleasantville line -- a 24-hour operation, he says. - - John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 20:32:32 EST Subject: [PRR] E-7 Vents --part1_114.2adf456f.2cd5b8b0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am working on the conversion of plastic shells to represent the Pennsy's units. One detail I have not found and doubt exists is the two small square vents just to the rear of the cab doors. Does an HO manufacturer make these vents or will they need to be scratched? Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_114.2adf456f.2cd5b8b0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am working on the conversion of plastic shell= s to represent the Pennsy's units. One detail I have not found and dou= bt exists is the two small square vents just to the rear of the cab doors.&n= bsp; Does an HO manufacturer make these vents or will they need to be scratc= hed?

Thank you,

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_114.2adf456f.2cd5b8b0_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 20:57:01 EST Subject: [PRR] Builders plate on EBay From: aurora7@juno.com There is a B6sb builders plate on EBay at the moment. To high for my collection, but a nice piece, none the less. Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "If you can't say anything nice, at least be vague". ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 21:21:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] E-7 Vents Hi Evan, Are you building "as built" or late PRR E7s?. There are two vents behind the cab doors on the second order(?) of E7s. You might want to check out "PRR Diesel Loco. Pictorial Volume 7- EMD E Units and Alco PAs" by Withers. Hope this helps. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chuck Friedlein" Subject: Re: [PRR] Builders plate on EBay Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 22:10:31 -0500 I don't have a list of items handy, but does anybody know if the plate on eBay might be one of the things stolen from the Strasburg RR? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 8:57 PM Subject: [PRR] Builders plate on EBay > There is a B6sb builders plate on EBay at the moment. To high for my > collection, but a nice piece, none the less. > > Richard Glueck > Peace of the Planet Farm > Winterport, Maine > > "If you can't say anything nice, at least be vague". > > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 22:32:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Builders plate on EBay Chuck, The B6sb Plate, which is from Loco #4001 doesn't ring a bell as to one from the Strasburg Collection. However, there is a slight coincidence with this plate. It happens to be the same number I picked for my 1:29th Scale B6sb model. I chose that because the 4001 was a late steam era loco still alive and running around in the Columbus area. Too high for me now as well.................I think, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 00:06:18 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] 100 more X29 BX converted into 2000-2498 In a message dated 10/31/03 1:12:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Road numbers of X29 Railway Express cars > From: "Claus Schlund" > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 19:00:34 -0800 > > Hi Fred, > > My photocopy of the Apr 1938 ORER has the following entry: > > AAR Designation BX Express 2000-2498 (number of cars 215) under 60 ft > length. > > While the ORER does NOT give the PRR class designation for passenger > equipmenbt (it DOES for freight equipment) these are probably the > X29 cars assigned for that era. > > I believe the low 2000's numbers were X29 cars for a very > long time - probably during your 1937 era as well > as earlier and later. > > - Claus > Thanks, Claus I infer this means that another 100 X29's were converted between July 1936 and Apr 1938. Then no more were converted to passenger service until after January 1940. Yes, this number series appears to be the only one active in 1937. We're inferring that all the X25 cars in this series are gone -- a good bet after 1934. For you later modelers, this number series is not the only one active after 1943, but it contained most of the 500 cars allowed from 1942 through at least 1958, and 180 survivors made it to the end of the PRR. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles. No Late Fees & Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/xlw.sC/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 00:06:18 EST Subject: [PRR] 100 more X29 BX converted into 2000-2498 --part1_145.1b93afca.2cd5eaca_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/31/03 1:12:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Road numbers of X29 Railway Express cars > From: "Claus Schlund" > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 19:00:34 -0800 > > Hi Fred, > > My photocopy of the Apr 1938 ORER has the following entry: > > AAR Designation BX Express 2000-2498 (number of cars 215) under 60 ft > length. > > While the ORER does NOT give the PRR class designation for passenger > equipmenbt (it DOES for freight equipment) these are probably the > X29 cars assigned for that era. > > I believe the low 2000's numbers were X29 cars for a very > long time - probably during your 1937 era as well > as earlier and later. > > - Claus > Thanks, Claus I infer this means that another 100 X29's were converted between July 1936 and Apr 1938. Then no more were converted to passenger service until after January 1940. Yes, this number series appears to be the only one active in 1937. We're inferring that all the X25 cars in this series are gone -- a good bet after 1934. For you later modelers, this number series is not the only one active after 1943, but it contained most of the 500 cars allowed from 1942 through at least 1958, and 180 survivors made it to the end of the PRR. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_145.1b93afca.2cd5eaca_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 10/31/03 1:12:53 AM Eastern Standar= d Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

Subject: Re: [PRR] Road numbers= of X29 Railway Express cars
From: "Claus Schlund" <schlund@cwnet.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 19:00:34 -0800

Hi Fred,

My photocopy of the Apr 1938 ORER has the following entry:

AAR Designation BX Express 2000-2498 (number of cars 215) under 60 ft=20= length.

While the ORER does NOT give the PRR class designation for passenger
equipmenbt (it DOES for freight equipment) these are probably the
X29 cars assigned for that era.

I believe the low 2000's numbers were X29 cars for a very
long time - probably during your 1937 era as well
as earlier and later.

- Claus

Thanks, Claus

I infer this means that another 100 X29's were converted between July 1936 a= nd Apr 1938. Then no more were converted to passenger service until af= ter January 1940.

Yes, this number series appears to be the only one active in 1937. We'= re inferring that all the X25 cars in this series are gone -- a good bet aft= er 1934. For you later modelers, this number series is not the only on= e active after 1943, but it contained most of the 500 cars allowed from 1942= through at least 1958, and 180 survivors made it to the end of the PRR.&nbs= p;

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_145.1b93afca.2cd5eaca_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 00:06:16 EST Subject: [PRR] B6 a Lines West acquisition --part1_64.366f2fd3.2cd5eac8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/30/03 7:36:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Bowser B6 now available > From: "Martin Harriss" > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:30:34 -0500 > > It apprears that Bowser's B6 is now available (they just updated their > web page this morning.) > > Martin > I'll bet you mean the B6sa/B6sb. The class B6 is an earlier and slightly lighter animal, bought only by Lines West. To add to our confusion, those B6 were built with piston valves, but most were rebuilt with (you guessed it) superheaters, yielding class B6s. Some of these lasted long enough around Cincinnati to cause concern in our captioning of the Spring 2004 Keystone article. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_64.366f2fd3.2cd5eac8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 10/30/03 7:36:06 PM Eastern Standar= d Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

Subject: Bowser B6 now availabl= e
From: "Martin Harriss" <martin@Princeton.EDU>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:30:34 -0500

It apprears that Bowser's B6 is now available (they just updated their
web page this morning.)

Martin

I'll bet you mean the B6sa/B6sb. The class B6 is an earlier and slight= ly lighter animal, bought only by Lines West. To add to our confusion,= those B6 were built with piston valves, but most were rebuilt with (you gue= ssed it) superheaters, yielding class B6s. Some of these lasted long e= nough around Cincinnati to cause concern in our captioning of the Spring 200= 4 Keystone article.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_64.366f2fd3.2cd5eac8_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 23:41:43 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] E-7 Vents Evan, list, You may already have it, but RMC's May 2000 issue (pages 66 to 71) has a good article on modeling a PRR E7/EP20 circa mid 50s. Article includes how to add the extra vents added by the PRR. Only error that I caught on a very nice model was author's use of a "freight" pilot vs the correct "passenger" pilot. Naturally, this article came out after I finished my model of 5901...rebuilding her is on my list of future projects. Doug --- RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > I am working on the conversion of plastic shells > to represent the Pennsy's units. One detail I have not found and doubt exists is the two small square > vents just to the rear of the cab doors. Does an HO > manufacturer make these vents or will they need to be scratched? > > Thank you, > > Evan Leisey > RCT&HS 346 > PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] N8 Interior Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 18:13:27 -0500 Hi Guys, I am forwarding this for a friend who is painting some S Scale N8. Please reply to Rusty at rusty1945@juno.com Thanks Bill -----Original Message----- From: James rustermier [mailto:rusty1945@juno.com] Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 5:49 PM To: billlane@comcast.net Subject: Bill: Do you know what color the PRR painted the inside of their N8? The photos you sent me of the interior looks like it was a two tone job with some light color on top. Rusty --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.534 / Virus Database: 329 - Release Date: 10/31/2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 18:28:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] N8 Interior Rusty, Bill, In emailing back and forth with Bob Johnson, the following is the info he supplied me cocerning the interior of Cabins. Should help somewhat.....Gary E-mail message From: bobjohnson@alltel.net (Bob=A0Johnson) Date: Tue, Mar 4, 2003, 9:24pm To: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Subject: Re: N5c Hi Gary, The only specification I have found for cabin car floors is "Apply two coats of Quick Drying Floor Enamel, P.R.R. shade, Acct. 47, Ref. 2334, to the floors." This was dated January 13, 1953. I have been told that it was a dark red, like old-fashioned red porch and floor paint. I don't know if that stuff is still sold in paint stores or not. If you fellows can get a good match to the existing red on your floor, I would like to know what it is, as I get lots of questions. It would be great to be able to tell people to use a specific brand and type of paint, or a specific mixture. The original interior color of the N5c (and most other PRR cabin cars) was Buff. On January 13, 1953 this was changed to "Apply two coats of P. O. Green Enamel, Acct. 47, Ref. 3119, to the walls, from floor up to and including window sills; the lockers, interior and exterior; seat frames; lower bunks; table and sink, except tops; end doors and frames; bulkhead corner posts to the ceiling, and the cupola seats, including armrests and sides to and including cupola side window sills and safety rail." "Apply two coats of Cream Enamel, Acct. 47, Ref. 3047, to the remainder of the interior above window sills, including the bottoms of upper bunks and the ceilings." I have no idea what P. O. stands for in the green name. Perhaps careful sanding will allow you to find the original Buff under the green in some spots. Once again, any color matches you can make will be very helpful to others restoring cabin cars or even doing model interiors. Modelers wouldn't want to use the prototype paint - it would be too thick. But knowing what it was would allow samples to be obtained of the real paint, which could then be matched to model paint. Good luck with the project, Bob Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 18:13:27 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] N8 Interior Hi Guys, I am forwarding this for a friend who is painting some S Scale N8. Please reply to Rusty at rusty1945@juno.com Thanks Bill -----Original Message----- From: James rustermier [mailto:rusty1945@juno.com] Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 5:49 PM To: billlane@comcast.net Subject: Bill: Do you know what color the PRR painted the inside of their N8? The photos you sent me of the interior looks like it was a two tone job with some light color on top. Rusty --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.534 / Virus Database: 329 - Release Date: 10/31/2003 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 20:42:41 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] E-7 Vents --part1_d0.40e4fc19.2cd70c91_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Evan, The vents need to be scratched... Then don't forget the radiator vents need to be rebuilt, there is a commercial part for that, and the addition of the rear vents on the carline below the roof at the very rear. The we can talk about the pilots and them the journals ... this should keep you busy for sometime.... Greg Martin --part1_d0.40e4fc19.2cd70c91_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Evan,

The vents need to be scratched... Then don't forget the radiator vents need=20= to be rebuilt, there is a commercial part for that, and the addition of the=20= rear vents on the carline below the roof at the very rear. The we can talk a= bout the pilots and them the journals ... this should keep you busy for some= time....

Greg Martin --part1_d0.40e4fc19.2cd70c91_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 18:28:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] N8 Interior Rusty, Bill, In emailing back and forth with Bob Johnson, the following is the info he supplied me cocerning the interior of Cabins. Should help somewhat.....Gary =20 E-mail message=20=20=20 =20 From: bobjohnson@alltel.net (Bob=A0Johnson) Date: Tue, Mar 4, 2003, 9:24pm To: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Subject: Re: N5c=20 Hi Gary,=20 The only specification I have found for cabin car floors is "Apply two coats of Quick Drying Floor Enamel, P.R.R. shade, Acct. 47, Ref. 2334, to the floors." This was dated January 13, 1953. I have been told that it was a dark red, like old-fashioned red porch and floor paint. I don't know if that stuff is still sold in paint stores or not. If you fellows can get a good match to the existing red on your floor, I would like to know what it is, as I get lots of questions. It would be great to be able to tell people to use a specific brand and type of paint, or a specific mixture.=20 The original interior color of the N5c (and most other PRR cabin cars) was Buff. On January 13, 1953 this was changed to "Apply two coats of P. O. Green Enamel, Acct. 47, Ref. 3119, to the walls, from floor up to and including window sills; the lockers, interior and exterior; seat frames; lower bunks; table and sink, except tops; end doors and frames; bulkhead corner posts to the ceiling, and the cupola seats, including armrests and sides to and including cupola side window sills and safety rail." "Apply two coats of Cream Enamel, Acct. 47, Ref. 3047, to the remainder of the interior above window sills, including the bottoms of upper bunks and the ceilings." I have no idea what P. O. stands for in the green name.=20 Perhaps careful sanding will allow you to find the original Buff under the green in some spots. Once again, any color matches you can make will be very helpful to others restoring cabin cars or even doing model interiors. Modelers wouldn't want to use the prototype paint - it would be too thick. But knowing what it was would allow samples to be obtained of the real paint, which could then be matched to model paint.=20 Good luck with the project, Bob=20 Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=3D5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remember= ing Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to =3D PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com=20 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/=20 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 07:47:53 -0600 Subject: Re:[PRR] B6 a Lines West acquisition From: Bruce Smith --Apple-Mail-2--634240022 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On Saturday, November 1, 2003, at 11:06 PM, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > I'll bet you mean the B6sa/B6sb.=A0 The class B6 is an earlier and =20 > slightly lighter animal, bought only by Lines West.=A0 To add to our =20= > confusion, those B6 were built with piston valves, but most were =20 > rebuilt with (you guessed it) superheaters, yielding class B6s.=A0 = Some =20 > of these lasted long enough around Cincinnati to cause concern in our =20= > captioning of the Spring 2004 Keystone article. Actually, you mean that the Bowser is a B6sb only since the B6sa had a =20= radial stay firebox Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin =20= Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ = ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ = =20 | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | =20 ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| =20 |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= --Apple-Mail-2--634240022 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Saturday, November 1, 2003, at 11:06 PM, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: I'll bet you mean the B6sa/B6sb.=A0 The class B6 is an earlier and slightly lighter animal, bought only by Lines West.=A0 To add to our confusion, those B6 were built with piston valves, but most were rebuilt with (you guessed it) superheaters, yielding class B6s.=A0 Some of these lasted long enough around Cincinnati to cause concern in our captioning of the Spring 2004 Keystone article. Actually, you mean that the Bowser is a B6sb only since the B6sa had a radial stay firebox < Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. =20 Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin Courier __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ =20 ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __=20 __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 = 0-0-0= --Apple-Mail-2--634240022-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 08:21:12 -0600 Subject: [PRR] FW: RS: News Regarding "Surviving World Steam" for From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" Forwarded from the Railspot list. Some of you may be interested. Don Harper Marine Lab Texas A&M Univ. at Galveston Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- From: James Hefner To: "james@survivingworldsteam.com" Subject: RS: News Regarding "Surviving World Steam" for November 2003 Date: Sat, 01 Nov, 2003, 7:03 The "Surviving World Steam" project is documenting the last of the world's remaining steam locomotives, ships, boats, vehicles, and reciprocating pumps in the form of searchable databases and digital photographs. Roughly 31,000 steam engines in 150 countries and 2,000 photographs are included in the Surviving World Steam project. For more information please visit our new website at: http://www.survivingworldsteam.com *** Contents *** =B7 New Features, New Photographs, New Website all part of the update for November 2003 =B7 "Surviving World Steam Locomotives" has been updated for November 2003 =B7 "Surviving World Steam Vehicles" has been updated for November 2003 =B7 " Steam Lizards" update for November 2003 =B7 "Surviving World Steamships" has been updated for November 2003 *** New Features, New Photographs, New Website all part of the update for November 2003 *** The "Surviving World Steam" Project has achieved several notable milestones in the past six months. The total number of users surpassed the 200 mark during this time. For the first time since this project was begun, the total number of pictures added to the project exceeded the total number of new engines added in the past six months. And two new and long-awaited program features have been added to the "Surviving World Steam" CD-ROMs. The project now has its own website at http://www.survivingworldsteam.com. A great big THANK YOU to Paul Evans and Internal Fire, Museum of Power, Wales for hosting our new website; and to Patrick M. Cassell, Jean Francois Cou=EBdou, Neil J. Edwards, Ray Gardiner, Paul Sharpe, and Franz VonRiedel (Zenith Tug) for providing the majority of the 873 photographs that have been added to the "Surviving World Steam" project library since May 2003. *** "Surviving World Steam Locomotives" has been updated for November 2003 *** The "Surviving World Steam Locomotives" for Windows CD-ROM was the first CD-ROM in the "Surviving World Steam" series, and has been updated for the month of November 2003. It now contains 19,018 steam locomotives; up 73 since the last update in May 2003 and 91% or more of the total worldwide. The "Surviving World Steam Locomotive" program CD-ROM now includes 820 photographs in 62 countries. They include representative examples of builders and classes the world over. Examples of most surviving classes in North America, the UK, and much of Europe are also now included. Thirteen sound clips are also included. The program itself includes two new features. One is a more extensive search form. You can now search each field individual; so for example, you can search for 3 ft gauge Baldwin 4-6-0s remaining in India. The other is a slide show feature; you enter the number of seconds delay, and the program automatically pages through the database. Hitting the same function key stops the slide show; when it reaches the end of the database, it starts back at the beginning again. Those who have already purchased a copy can order an update. The update includes a copy of the program with the new features and 210 pictures, many of which do not ship with the program. Update CD-ROMs include an "Update Wizard", which transfers pictures and sound clip links to the update from your current copy before overwriting it. Thus, you needn't worry about losing your picture collection with each update. To read more about "Surviving World Steam Locomotives", or to obtain a program or update CD-ROM, go to http://www.survivingworldsteam.com/us_steam *** "Surviving World Steam Vehicles" has been updated for November 2003 **= * "Surviving World Steam Vehicles" is the second CD-ROM in the "Surviving World Steam" series. It was first released in November 2001; and has also been updated for November 2003. It now includes 10,014 vehicles (up 121 since the last update in May 2003), 480 photographs, and one Quicktime Movie. No one knows how many steam vehicles remain; my best guess is that this represents 75% of the total worldwide. It also includes the new release of the "Surviving World Steam" program with the extended search and slide show features. An update CD-ROM with the new program, 497 photographs, and the "Update Wizard" is also available for "Surviving World Steam Vehicles". To read more about "Surviving World Steam Vehicles", or to obtain a copy, please go to http://www.survivingworldsteam.com/steam_tr . *** " Steam Lizards" update for November 2003 *** The "Steam Lizards" project now has two main websites. First is our "Steam Lizards" group on Yahoo. It is at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/steam_lizards It is currently made up of 84 members, second only to "Surviving World Steam Locomotives" in total number of users. The online "survivor's database" contains 729 pumps, nearly twice as many since May 2003. A good selection of links is also available in the Links section. New for November 2003 is a picture on the "Steam Lizard" Group home page of a pair of G&J Weir vertical simplex steam pumps in the Bressingham Steam Museum; taken by "Sharpo" a member of the Steam Lizards group. The second "steam lizard" website is the "Surviving World Steam Lizard" photo gallery at: http://www.survivingworldsteam.com/gallery/ It now includes 551 current and historical photographs by various photographers from around the world. The photo gallery is entirely searchable, using the search field on the home page; and has no pop ups or banner ads. It is available to everyone; no logon ID is required. Special thanks to Ray Gardiner for his major contributions to this project to date, and to Rob Dickinson for the help he and Ray have provided by documenting virtually every single steam pump found in the sugar mills of Java in Indonesia. *** "Surviving World Steamships" has been updated for November 2003 *** "Surviving World Steamships" is the third CD-ROM in the "Surviving World Steam" series. It includes: =B7 Vessels propelled by a steam engine and boiler =B7 Vessels propelled by a steam turbine and boiler =B7 Vessels propelled by a steam turbine and nuclear reactor It was first released in November 2002; and has been updated for November 2003. It now includes 1956 vessels (up 200 since last May), 183 photographs, and one Quicktime Movie. It is thought that this total is 78% of the estimated 2500 steam vessels worldwide. (Steamboats as small as steam launches are included, and make up most of the missing vessels.) It also includes the new release of the "Surviving World Steam" program with the extended search and slide show features. To read more about "Surviving World Steamships", or to obtain a copy, please go to http://www.survivingworldsteam.com/steamship Special thanks to Ted Miles of the San Francisco Maritime National Historical Park, Franz VonRiedel of Zenith Tug, and Jeff H. Schurr for their help in researching this project. *** In closing, I want to once again extend a warm "thank you" to everyone who has supported "Surviving World Steam", either by sending photographs or data, or by purchasing a CD-ROM, or both. In every respect, 2003 continues to be our best year ever, and I am indebted to everyone who has made this possible. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me. -James Hefner (Hebrews 10:20a) JDH Consulting james1@survivingworldsteam.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles. No Late Fees & Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/xlw.sC/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/8ZCslB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 10:59:49 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Alco RS1 Use in 1954 From: Jerry Britton Have a few RS1's and I'm trying to figure out how to use them on my 1954 layout, which includes portions of the Philadelphia, Middle, and Pittsburgh divisions. The 1957 "Trains" feature on the "World's Busiest Mountain Railroad" shows two trains with RS3 lashups (I think PG-10 was one of them). But I've learned through Jack Consoli that not all of the RS1's could MU, and the majority of those that could, could only MU at one end. So, you wouldn't see more than a pair together. Of the actual road numbers released by Atlas, one was assigned to the New York division and one to the Eastern division. How were they used? How might I use them? Did they switch locals? Or did they switch with the yard limits? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 13:01:43 EST Subject: [PRR] BLI GG1 Knuckle Couplers --part1_1ea.1265bb64.2cd7f207_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been looking at mounting the Kadee 58 coupler on this unit as has another list member. There does not appear to be any way to do this without some detail damaging surgery. Has any one found a way? I am really not fond of the supplied knuckle coupler. BTW, Kadee is working on a new "draft gear" (coupler pocket) as found on their box car line as a separate part. This will yield a much narrower coupler pocket. An interesting item here is that the shank length of the box car coupler is longer than the 58 couplers' shank and the ends are different. So, a current number 58 will not mount in the box car. I was told that the customer complaints about that too large and unprototypical coupler box was the driving force behind this new coupler and draft gear project. Wonder if this will lead to a line of prototypical couplers and coupler pockets? Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_1ea.1265bb64.2cd7f207_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have been looking at mounting the Kadee 58 co= upler on this unit as has another list member. There does not appear t= o be any way to do this without some detail damaging surgery. Has any=20= one found a way? I am really not fond of the supplied knuckle coupler.=

BTW, Kadee is working on a new "draft gear" (coupler pocket) as= found on their box car line as a separate part. This will yield a muc= h narrower coupler pocket. An interesting item here is that the shank=20= length of the box car coupler is longer than the 58 couplers' shank and the=20= ends are different. So, a current number 58 will not mount= in the box car. I was told that the customer complaints about that to= o large and unprototypical coupler box was the driving force behind this new= coupler and draft gear project. Wonder if this will lead to a line of= prototypical couplers and coupler pockets?

Thank you,

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 --part1_1ea.1265bb64.2cd7f207_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 12:33:37 -0600 Subject: [PRR] BLI GG1 Knuckle Couplers From: Bruce Smith --Apple-Mail-14--617095171 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On Monday, November 3, 2003, at 12:01 PM, RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > =A0 I have been looking at mounting the Kadee 58 coupler on this unit = as =20 > has another list member.=A0 There does not appear to be any way to do =20= > this without some detail damaging surgery.=A0 Has any one found a = way?=A0 =20 > I am really not fond of the supplied knuckle coupler. > > =A0 BTW,=A0 Kadee is working on a new "draft gear" (coupler pocket) as = =20 > found on their box car line as a separate part.=A0 This will yield a =20= > much narrower coupler pocket.=A0 An interesting item here is that the =20= > shank length of the box car coupler is longer than the 58 couplers' =20= > shank and the ends are different.=A0=A0=A0 So, a current number 58 = will not =20 > mount in the box car.=A0 I was told that the customer complaints about = =20 > that too large and unprototypical coupler box was the driving force =20= > behind this new coupler and draft gear project.=A0 Wonder if this will = =20 > lead to a line of prototypical couplers and coupler pockets? Evan, What you want is the Kadee #78, which has been out for around a year =20 ...You reading guys gotta get out more ;^)> This coupler comes =20 with a "prototype" width box. I have heard of one person doing this =20 conversion on the BLI GG1. You're right, the kadee #19 (or what ever =20= it is) is pretty bizarre. Apparently it is european style coupler, but =20= last I looked, Broadway is an AMERICAN company. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin =20= Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ = ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ = =20 | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | =20 ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| =20 |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= --Apple-Mail-14--617095171 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Monday, November 3, 2003, at 12:01 PM, RDG2124@aol.com wrote: Arial=A0 I have been looking at mounting the Kadee 58 coupler on this unit as has another list member.=A0 There does not appear to be any way to do this without some detail damaging surgery.=A0 Has any one found a way?=A0 I am really not fond of the supplied knuckle coupler. =A0 BTW,=A0 Kadee is working on a new "draft gear" (coupler pocket) as found on their box car line as a separate part.=A0 This will yield a much narrower coupler pocket.=A0 An interesting item here is that the shank length of the box car coupler is longer than the 58 couplers' shank and the ends are different.=A0=A0=A0 So, a current number 58 will = not mount in the box car.=A0 I was told that the customer complaints about that too large and unprototypical coupler box was the driving force behind this new coupler and draft gear project.=A0 Wonder if this will lead to a line of prototypical couplers and coupler pockets? Evan, What you want is the Kadee #78, which has been out for around a year <...You reading guys gotta get out more ;^)> This coupler comes with a "prototype" width box. I have heard of one person doing this conversion on the BLI GG1. You're right, the kadee #19 (or what ever it is) is pretty bizarre. Apparently it is european style coupler, but last I looked, Broadway is an AMERICAN company. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. =20 Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin Courier __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ =20 ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __=20 __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 = 0-0-0= --Apple-Mail-14--617095171-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI GG1 Knuckle Couplers Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 18:37:55 +0000 Evan Leisey wrote: "Kadee is working on a new "draft gear" (coupler pocket) as found on their box car line as a separate part." It's already here as the #78: http://www.kadee.com/htmbord/page350.htm "So, a current number 58 will not mount in the box car. I was told that the customer complaints about that too large and unprototypical coupler box was the driving force behind this new coupler and draft gear project." Going to the #58 revealed the shortcomings of the #5 coupler box. The oversized knuckle of the #5 hid the the fact that the boxes were too wide and shallow. "Wonder if this will lead to a line of prototypical couplers and coupler pockets?" Accurail has had their scale Accumate on the market for over two years now: http://www.accurail.com (Select "Accumate Couplers" from the drop down menu.) The Proto HO: Accumates don't have the large gap in the knuckle assembly that the #58 has. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 15:22:15 -0600 Subject: [PRR] F30 flat car brake detail From: Bruce Smith --Apple-Mail-22--606977676 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Hello y'all, In a little spill over from the PRR Project group, I'm looking for F30A underframe shots or drawings. Specifically, I'd like to know the locations of the brake rods and levers. There is one shot in an older issue of the Keystone looking down with the deck off, but it isn't informative WRT the levers. Any help would be much appreciated! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-22--606977676 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII Hello y'all, In a little spill over from the PRR Project group, I'm looking for F30A underframe shots or drawings. Specifically, I'd like to know the locations of the brake rods and levers. There is one shot in an older issue of the Keystone looking down with the deck off, but it isn't informative WRT the levers. Any help would be much appreciated! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin Courier __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-22--606977676-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] Liljestrand & Sweetland Parlor Book Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 19:14:43 -0500 Just got in my shipment of Liljestrand & Sweetland's latest...volume three in the passenger car series. This volume is on parlor cars and -- lo and behold -- provides great insight into the many long-standing questions I have had about "coach cafe" and similarly named cars from the "makeup of trains" books. This book finally attaches actual classes to those ambiguous names. I will soon update the "24 Hours at Harrisburg" with this newfound info. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Frank & Andrea Amato" Subject: [PRR] X31a trucks Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 19:46:57 -0600 Listvolk, I have ten Fine N Scale X31a boxcars on the way, and I want to put appropriate trucks on them (we N scalers finally have several choices). That said, I have found conflicting info regarding trucks used on the prototypes. Several online references state that these cars were built with coil eliptic trucks, but the X31a pictures in PRR Color Guide Volume 2 that clearly show plain 'ol Bettendorf trucks. What's the story? My modeling period is 1960-ish, if that makes a difference. Thanks in advance! Frank ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] X31a trucks Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:15:23 -0600 Frank Amato wrote: Several online references state that these cars were built with coil elliptic trucks, but the X31a pictures in PRR Color Guide Volume 2 that clearly show plain 'ol Bettendorf trucks. What's the story? That's pretty much the story. The Class X31A boxcars were built with 2D-F10 coil-elliptic trucks. By the 1960s, photographic evidence in the three Morning Sun Color Guides shows that many (but not all) cars got 2D-F8 trucks by then. PRR 76642 (1955, Vol 1 p 77) still has coil-elliptic trucks, while PRR 62374 (2/18/1962, Vol 1 p 78) has one coil-elliptic truck and one 2D-F8 truck! It's possible that the leaf springs were simply replaced by coil springs as they wore out. As always, when in doubt, model from photos. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:45:38 -0500 From: John Ryan Subject: Re: [PRR] X31a trucks Who makes the 2D-F10 trucks in HO. John Ryan Benjamin Frank Hom wrote: >Frank Amato wrote: >Several online references state that these cars were built with coil >elliptic >trucks, but the X31a pictures in PRR Color Guide Volume 2 that clearly show >plain 'ol Bettendorf trucks. What's the story? > >That's pretty much the story. The Class X31A boxcars were built with 2D-F10 >coil-elliptic trucks. By the 1960s, photographic evidence in the three >Morning Sun Color Guides shows that many (but not all) cars got 2D-F8 trucks >by then. PRR 76642 (1955, Vol 1 p 77) still has coil-elliptic trucks, while >PRR 62374 (2/18/1962, Vol 1 p 78) has one coil-elliptic truck and one 2D-F8 >truck! It's possible that the leaf springs were simply replaced by coil >springs as they wore out. > >As always, when in doubt, model from photos. > > >Ben Hom > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] X31a trucks Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 00:07:35 -0500 John, Bowser makes them. They are included in their X31a kits. Brian c ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Ryan" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 11:45 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] X31a trucks > Who makes the 2D-F10 trucks in HO. > > John Ryan > > Benjamin Frank Hom wrote: > > >Frank Amato wrote: > >Several online references state that these cars were built with coil > >elliptic > >trucks, but the X31a pictures in PRR Color Guide Volume 2 that clearly show > >plain 'ol Bettendorf trucks. What's the story? > > > >That's pretty much the story. The Class X31A boxcars were built with 2D-F10 > >coil-elliptic trucks. By the 1960s, photographic evidence in the three > >Morning Sun Color Guides shows that many (but not all) cars got 2D-F8 trucks > >by then. PRR 76642 (1955, Vol 1 p 77) still has coil-elliptic trucks, while > >PRR 62374 (2/18/1962, Vol 1 p 78) has one coil-elliptic truck and one 2D-F8 > >truck! It's possible that the leaf springs were simply replaced by coil > >springs as they wore out. > > > >As always, when in doubt, model from photos. > > > > > >Ben Hom > > > > > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Looking for Bud Kaiser Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 15:01:18 +0000 Bud if you are still on PRR-talk would you contact me off list about the Jacks Tower please. Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 17:02:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] J1 at Enola? From: Hello, I'm posting the question below for a friend. You can reply to the list, me, or directly to Jim. Thanks, kbt ------- Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 21:08:54 -0600 From: "Jim Kindraka" Subject: Pennsy Question... Had a question at the Fest regarding the PRR 2-10-4 and where they operated. Can any of you Pennsy guys tell me if the 'J's traveled as far east as Enola?? I have photos of them on Horseshoe, but wasn't sure if Altoona was the eastern terminus of 'J' activity or if they ranged east to Enola. Responses off line are fine... Jim Kindraka River Raisin Models http://www.riverraisinmodels.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: [PRR] Walthers 4-4-2 Sleeper - Reply from Walthers Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 18:07:12 -0500

I emailed Walthers about the Pennsy 4-4-2 sleeper in the late scheme and this was the response.

"Thank you for the e-mail. Walthers item #932-6707 is not a

discontinued item. We will be re-running the product again.

Unfortunately, I do not expect to see that item again until January or

February of 2004.

I hope that this answers your questions. Thank you for allowing us to

serve you. "

So it looks like it will be available again. At first I thought this was the FOM color scheme, but the stock number for the scheme is 932-16704. I am still looking for the sleeper in the late scheme, but it is nice to know that I can pick one up later too.

Eric

--- Eric Lauterbach

--- ealauterbach@earthlink.net

--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.

----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] J1 at Enola? Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 18:17:02 -0500 On Nov 4, 2003, at 5:02 PM, wrote: > > I'm posting the question below for a friend. You > can reply to the list, me, or directly to Jim. It was previously discussed on the list that they did not come east of Altoona. There were clearance problems at the Spruce Creek tunnels as well as the flyover (under) into Enola at the west end of the Rockville Bridge. > > Thanks, > kbt > > ------- > > Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 21:08:54 -0600 > From: "Jim Kindraka" > Subject: Pennsy Question... > > Had a question at the Fest regarding the PRR 2-10-4 and where they > operated. Can > any of you Pennsy guys tell me if the 'J's traveled as far east as > Enola?? > I have > photos of them on Horseshoe, but wasn't sure if Altoona was the eastern > terminus of > 'J' activity or if they ranged east to Enola. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] Cabin car lettering Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 17:10:59 -0700 Gize, I am finally getting around to doing a couple of cabin cars as per Ed Martin's (bro of our very own Greg Martin) article in the Dec '95 Mainline Modeler. Need some advice on a couple of items though...lettering is the biggie. Who makes decent lettering for a pre-54 cabin car? And one more item...anyone out there affiliated with a hobby shop that can get the roofwaks (N5c version) needed from Bowser? We no longer have a hobby shop here in Tucson that can get these, and the shipping from Bowser is prohibitive. (Before the last hobby shop that was able to get these closed I had tried to order some...but he never got them. No wonder he's history). Although if necessary I can order them from Bowser, pay the price for shipping and be done with it. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 19:23:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin car lettering Bill, Check out the new set by Microscale specifically for PRR Cabins. They have pretty much all versions. And with the thin decal film they apply and ide very good. As for Bowser roof walks, you might want to call AB Charles in Pgh. He has drawers of Bowser parts. I am sure he can ship quick if he happens to have them on hand which I wouldn't doubt. Phone number is 412-561-3068. Have the part number on hand so they can possily look while you wait.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 22:18:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] 2004 PCRRHS Convention in Altoona Pa. (With permission from Mr. Jerry Britton) Greetings, On Sept.16,17, and 18 of 2004, the Penn Central Railroad Historical Society will have their annual meet in the City of Altoona and help celebrate the 150th anniversary of the opening of Horseshoe Curve. The convention will focus on operations of the PC on the Pittsburgh and Allegheny Divisions of the railroad. A slide show from a 35 year engineer who operated trains over Horseshoe. Plus a presentations on PRR's yards and shops during the steam era. And we are working on tours Yes, there is a Penn Central Society. Many of the members are also PRRT&HS members. About 250 strong and growing. A great bunch of friendly guys. Altoona during the PC era was still THEE place to watch and photograph trains. Well over 100 trains a day and four tracks wide. Plus the H&P and the New Portage Branches still carried trains. If you would like to know more about the 2004 Convention or joining the PC Society, please contact me off list. Thanks and Best Regards, Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 22:40:06 -0500 Subject: [PRR] The first in a series. From: Jamie Bothwell Good evening, On page 116 of "Pennsylvania Railroad" by Schafer and Solomon in the "Railroad Color History" series there is a photo of a pair of Centipedes on single track pulling what is claimed to be the American through Manchester, OH in April, 1952. My road atlas list two Manchesters in Ohio. One is way down along the Ohio River, so there is no chance of a Pennsy line through there. The other is between Akron and Massillon. I find it hard to believe the American would be calling at either of these Manchesters on a regular basis. As a St. Louis train the American would have traveled through Coshocton, Dennison, and Steubenville. A 1952 timetable shows this train through eastern Ohio in the early to to mid morning, but not so early that the sun wouldn't be out. So, is the train shown really the American? Is it really in Manchester? If so, which one, and why? If not, what train is it, and/or where was the photo taken? Jamie Bothwell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RBurg74133@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 22:48:46 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Liljestrand & Sweetland Parlor Book -------------------------------1068004126 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interesting book. Answers many questions. however it raises at least one. The picture of the 26 &1 parlor car on page 6 named JESSIE is out of place my sources indicate that it was a Mopac car, Why was in a PRR book, a mistake or was it necessary to fill the page? Ray Burghart An SPF for Over 50 Years -------------------------------1068004126 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Interesting book. Answers many questions= . however it raises at least one. The picture of the 26 &1 parlor car on= page 6 named JESSIE is out of place my sources indicate that it was a Mopac= car, Why was in a PRR book, a mistake or was it necessary to fill the page?=

Ray Burghart

An SPF for Over 50 Years

-------------------------------1068004126-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] X31a trucks Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 23:10:21 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 3 Nov, "Frank & Andrea Amato" wrote: > I have ten Fine N Scale X31a boxcars on the way, and I want to put > appropriate trucks on them (we N scalers finally have several choices). Good choice of rolling stock! These are some of my favorite models. > That said, I have found conflicting info regarding trucks used on the > prototypes. As always, the Standard Railroad of the World! > Several online references state that these cars were built with coil eliptic > trucks, but the X31a pictures in PRR Color Guide Volume 2 that clearly show > plain 'ol Bettendorf trucks. What's the story? This is likely old news to you, but Bettendorfs and Coil-Elliptic look identical except for the springs; look at http://www.micro-trains.com/Cuts/1137.jpg from http://www.micro-trains.com/latest_t%20and%20coup.htm for a photo of the truck I would suggest you use, the only N Scale coil-elliptic truck that I know of. Look closely at the springs; if you strain your eyes, you'll see one coil and one leaf spring. As Ben said, the trucks and/or springs got replaced as time went on, and since the Color Guide only wants color pics, they tend to be mid-fifties and later. Are you aware of the prr-n_scale yahoo list? See . Good luck! Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G TRADOC DCSOPS&T" Subject: RE: [PRR] J1 at Enola? Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 08:44:14 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3A3A2.E6777A08 Content-Type: text/plain I saw a J, and a couple of M's, along with many L's, at Enola back in 1953, or so. It was a smoky place. Within only a few months of my last visit there when steam was operational, it was all gone--cleaned out. The only thing left was the coaling tower down in the mixing bowl. I can't attest to the service assigned the J, or M's. Might've been stand-by for other assigned power. Wish I had a camera with my back then. Andrew Harmantas, now watching the action at C&O Milepost FM Zero. -----Original Message----- From: kbt@bit-net.com [mailto:kbt@bit-net.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 5:03 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] J1 at Enola? Hello, I'm posting the question below for a friend. You can reply to the list, me, or directly to Jim. Thanks, kbt ------- Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 21:08:54 -0600 From: "Jim Kindraka" Subject: Pennsy Question... Had a question at the Fest regarding the PRR 2-10-4 and where they operated. Can any of you Pennsy guys tell me if the 'J's traveled as far east as Enola?? I have photos of them on Horseshoe, but wasn't sure if Altoona was the eastern terminus of 'J' activity or if they ranged east to Enola. Responses off line are fine... Jim Kindraka River Raisin Models http://www.riverraisinmodels.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3A3A2.E6777A08 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] J1 at Enola?

I saw a J, and a couple of M's, along with many L's, = at Enola back in 1953, or so. It was a smoky place. Within = only a few months of my last visit there when steam was operational, it = was all gone--cleaned out. The only thing left was the coaling = tower down in the mixing bowl. I can't attest to the service = assigned the J, or M's. Might've been stand-by for other assigned = power. Wish I had a camera with my back then.

Andrew Harmantas, now watching the action at C&O = Milepost FM Zero.

-----Original Message-----
From: kbt@bit-net.com [mailto:kbt@bit-net.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 5:03 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] J1 at Enola?

Hello,

I'm posting the question below for a friend. = You
can reply to the list, me, or directly to = Jim.

Thanks,
kbt

-------

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 21:08:54 -0600
From: "Jim Kindraka" = <raisinone@wideopenwest.com>
Subject: Pennsy Question...

Had a question at the Fest regarding the PRR 2-10-4 = and where they
operated. Can
any of you Pennsy guys tell me if the 'J's traveled = as far east as Enola??
I have
photos of them on Horseshoe, but wasn't sure if = Altoona was the eastern
terminus of
'J' activity or if they ranged east to Enola.

Responses off line are fine...

Jim Kindraka
River Raisin Models
http://www.riverraisinmodels.com

---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C3A3A2.E6777A08-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 09:05:13 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] J1 at Enola? From: Jerry Britton On Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 08:44 AM, Harmantas, Andrew G=20 TRADOC DCSOPS&T wrote: > I saw a J, and a couple of M's, along with many L's, at Enola back in=20= > 1953, or so.=A0 It was a smoky place.=A0 Within only a few months of = my=20 > last visit there when steam was operational, it was all gone--cleaned=20= > out.=A0 The only thing left was the coaling tower down in the mixing=20= > bowl.=A0 I can't attest to the service assigned the J, or M's.=A0 = Might've=20 > been stand-by for other assigned power.=A0 Wish I had a camera with my=20= > back then. Man, I'd love to see a pic of that...would add a whole new dimension to=20= my modeling!!! I'd love to run J's all the way from Cresson through=20 Enola! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 10:22:12 -0500 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] J1 at Enola? In a message dated 11/5/2003 9:05:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > Man, I'd love to see a pic of that...would add a whole new dimension to > my modeling!!! I'd love to run J's all the way from Cresson > through > Enola! Jerry, you are assuming the J's came through Altoona. It is possible they came off the Buffalo line and therefore avoided the constricting points at Spruce Tunnel and the Rockville flyover. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 10:29:27 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] J1 at Enola? From: Jerry Britton On Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 10:22 AM, SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: >> Man, I'd love to see a pic of that...would add a whole new dimension >> to >> my modeling!!! I'd love to run J's all the way from Cresson >> through >> Enola! > > Jerry, you are assuming the J's came through Altoona. It is possible > they came off the Buffalo line and therefore avoided the constricting > points at Spruce Tunnel and the Rockville flyover. Good point. Did the J's run the Susquehanna Division main line...anyone? Anyone else recall seeing J's in Enola? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 10:36:23 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Last call for PRR Cincinnati photos Gentlemen, The response over the last several months to my request for photos of PRR in the Cincinnati area has been terrifiic. I owe all respondents a debt of gratitude and hope that all of you enjoy the article when it appears in the Spring Keystone. In a few days, my editor tells me, he will cut off new photos for "PRR in Cincinnati". I've recently received groups of photos from Gary Rolih and Gary Mittner, have written captions for them, and need to get the photos into the mail for scanning. This message is to ask if any of you will be sending in more photos (or have them on the way). If so, can you estimate when they will arrive here? Many thanks, Rick Tipton Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please) Wolf Penn Station 5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive Prospect, KY 40059-9197 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 10:36:23 EST Subject: [PRR] Last call for PRR Cincinnati photos --part1_1d5.13a7ff00.2cda72f7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gentlemen, The response over the last several months to my request for photos of PRR in the Cincinnati area has been terrifiic. I owe all respondents a debt of gratitude and hope that all of you enjoy the article when it appears in the Spring Keystone. In a few days, my editor tells me, he will cut off new photos for "PRR in Cincinnati". I've recently received groups of photos from Gary Rolih and Gary Mittner, have written captions for them, and need to get the photos into the mail for scanning. This message is to ask if any of you will be sending in more photos (or have them on the way). If so, can you estimate when they will arrive here? Many thanks, Rick Tipton Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please) Wolf Penn Station 5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive Prospect, KY 40059-9197 --part1_1d5.13a7ff00.2cda72f7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gentlemen,

The response over the last several months to my request for photos of PRR in= the Cincinnati area has been terrifiic. I owe all respondents a debt=20= of gratitude and hope that all of you enjoy the article when it appears in t= he Spring Keystone.

In a few days, my editor tells me, he will cut off new photos for "PRR in Ci= ncinnati". I've recently received groups of photos from Gary Rolih and= Gary Mittner, have written captions for them, and need to get the photos in= to the mail for scanning.

This message is to ask if any of you will be sending in more photos (or have= them on the way). If so, can you estimate when they will arrive here?=

Many thanks,

Rick Tipton
Email RickTipton@aol.com
Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please)
Wolf Penn Station
5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive
Prospect, KY 40059-9197 --part1_1d5.13a7ff00.2cda72f7_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 12:07:59 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] J1 at Enola? From: Jerry Britton On Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 12:03 PM, Garry Spear wrote: > Yes, as a small (8-10 yo) boy I remember seeing Js at Enola. My > father had pictures, which were sold to a slide vendor about 10 years > ago. No idea who bought them. Man, now ya got me drooling! I can run my J's across the entire layout. No more helper duty! Hmmm, now what should be helpers...I1's? Eventually I'll get BH50's, one way or another, and at least one lashup of F units. And Jack Consoli tells me there were five GP7's assigned to passenger helper service in 1954. But dang, now I can run J's on the mains! But which train? Hmmmm. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] J1 at Enola? 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Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 18:23:55 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "sjlash" Subject: Re: [PRR] The first in a series. --------------Boundary-00=_VNJWQL80000000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jamie, Just off the top of my head, it would seem that the picture woul= d be in southern Ohio. If I'm not mistaken, this would have been the Panhandle and would have gone in the direction of St Louis. I'm quite sure there are people on this list that will pin it down for you . Jim=0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: Jamie Bothwell=0D Date: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 12:23:07 AM=0D To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=0D Subject: [PRR] The first in a series.=0D =0D Good evening,=0D On page 116 of "Pennsylvania Railroad" by Schafer and Solomon in the=0D "Railroad Color History" series there is a photo of a pair of=0D Centipedes on single track pulling what is claimed to be the American=0D through Manchester, OH in April, 1952. My road atlas list two=0D Manchesters in Ohio. One is way down along the Ohio River, so there is=0D no chance of a Pennsy line through there. The other is between Akron=0D and Massillon. I find it hard to believe the American would be calling=0D at either of these Manchesters on a regular basis. As a St. Louis=0D train the American would have traveled through Coshocton, Dennison, and=0D Steubenville. A 1952 timetable shows this train through eastern Ohio=0D in the early to to mid morning, but not so early that the sun wouldn't=0D be out. So, is the train shown really the American? Is it really in=0D Manchester? If so, which one, and why? If not, what train is it,=0D and/or where was the photo taken?=0D Jamie Bothwell=0D =0D =0D -----------------------------------------------------------------------=0D For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.=0D =0D =2E --------------Boundary-00=_VNJWQL80000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jamie, Just off the top of my head, it would seem that t= he picture would be in southern Ohio. If I'm not mistaken, th= is would have been the Panhandle and would have gone in the directi= on of St Louis. I'm quite sure there are people on this list = that will pin it down for you . Jim

-------Original Message-------

From: Jamie Bothwell

Date: Wednesday, N= ovember 05, 2003 12:23:07 AM

To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com

Subject: [PRR] The= first in a series.

Good evening,

On page 116 of "Pennsylvania Railroad" by Schafer and Solomon= in the

"Railroad Color History" series there is a photo of a pair of

Centipedes on single track pulling what is claimed to be the America= n

through Manchester, OH in April, 1952. My road atlas list two

Manchesters in Ohio. One is way down along the Ohio River, so there = is

no chance of a Pennsy line through there. The other is between Akron=

and Massillon. I find it hard to believe the American would be calli= ng

at either of these Manchesters on a regular basis. As a St. Louis

train the American would have traveled through Coshocton, Dennison, = and

Steubenville. A 1952 timetable shows this train through eastern Ohio=

in the early to to mid morning, but not so early that the sun wouldn= 't

be out. So, is the train shown really the American? Is it really in<= /DIV>

Manchester? If so, which one, and why? If not, what train is it,

and/or where was the photo taken?

Jamie Bothwell

--------------------------------------------------------------------= ---

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

--------------Boundary-00=_VNJWQL80000000000000-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 19:59:23 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] J1 at Enola? --part1_105.38f215e4.2cdaf6eb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All: According to the April 24, 1955 ETT No. 8, the J class locomotives were prohibited on the Middle Division mainline from the Philadelphia division post to BELL and all branches except Bald Eagle from Lock Haven to Park, Clearfield from Park to Tyrone, Holidaysburg ALTO to Jones Street Holidaysburg. This raises several questions. Since the J's were permitted from Loch Haven to Tyrone but not from Tyrone to BELL, where did they originate. The only possibility is the Williamsport Division. It is also impossible for a J to get to Enola via the Middle Division mainline, as they are only permitted from SLOPE to ANTIS on the mainline. J's were permitted across the entire length of the Buffalo Division ETT No. 9 date April 30, 1950. I do not have a copy of the Renovo Division, williamsport Division and Sesquehanna Division ETT to check the rule 1160-A2 for these divisions. FYI the Q's had the same restrictions as the J's in the September 28, 1947 ETT No. 10 Rich Orr --part1_105.38f215e4.2cdaf6eb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All:

According to the April 24, 1955 ETT No. 8, the J class locomotives were proh= ibited on the Middle Division mainline from the Philadelphia division post t= o BELL and all branches except Bald Eagle from Lock Haven to Park, Clearfiel= d from Park to Tyrone, Holidaysburg ALTO to Jones Street Holidaysburg.=

This raises several questions. Since the J's were permitted from Loch=20= Haven to Tyrone but not from Tyrone to BELL, where did they originate. = The only possibility is the Williamsport Division.

It is also impossible for a J to get to Enola via the Middle Division mainli= ne, as they are only permitted from SLOPE to ANTIS on the mainline.
J's were permitted across the entire length of the Buffalo Division ETT No.=20= 9 date April 30, 1950. I do not have a copy of the Renovo Division, wi= lliamsport Division and Sesquehanna Division ETT to check the rule 1160-A2 f= or these divisions.

FYI the Q's had the same restrictions as the J's in the September 28, 1947 E= TT No. 10

Rich Orr --part1_105.38f215e4.2cdaf6eb_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] J1 at Enola? Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 20:18:59 -0500 On Nov 5, 2003, at 7:59 PM, SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > According to the April 24, 1955 ETT No. 8, t... When all else fails, check the official PRR documentation! Yes, I just checked the 9/1954 ETT's for the Susquehanna, Philadelphia, and Middle Divisions. No way J's were running into Enola at that time. With all due respect, those who reported seeing them either mistook the class of loco they saw, or their memory of era was off. Perhaps at another time they ran into Enola. Other possibility: The Marysville Yard in the 1950's became a yard for "soon to be scrapped" steamers. Perhaps the J's were run into Enola, somewhat stripped, then pulled out to Marysville until scrapping time. The era would be correct. Just a thought. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] More cabin fever... Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 21:43:54 -0700 Hi again gize... One more item...I've noticed that according to NJ INternational's Cabin Cars of the Pennsylvania and Long Island Railroads, Caboose (sic) Data Book No. 2, classes N5a and N5b were fitted with Duryea underframes. Apparently later era (1960's) photos of these cars do not show any evidence of these underframes...anyone know the story on these? Would they still be on cars in the late 40's~early 50's era? When were they removed (if they were indeed removed?) And does anyone know a good online source of photos...preferable in service (and would it be too much to ask for color?) during this era? Yeah...I know it's more than one item, but that's the way it is... Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 00:15:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] J1 at Enola? Add this to the J1 clearence problems..... An old timer PRR worker told me a story about the J1s not being permitted west of Kittanning Point because of side swipes or near side swipes on Horseshoe Curve. He also said that in the early months of the J1s, they were mostly working east from Conemaugh/West slope via the New Portage. There is some published reports about J1s and side swipes. I don't know the year but PRR did spread the tracks out (at Horseshoe) farther because of the J and T class locomotives. Anyone have any info on this? Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 08:25:47 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Shipment of Potatos Received! From: Jerry Britton A few weeks ago we discussed the Maine potatoes that came into the Pennsy system via the BAR by way of the CP and D&H to Wilkes-Barre, then to Enola by train S-83. It was discussed that the "potato block" of this train (in 1954) would include a bunch of the red, white, and blue "State of Maine" BAR or New Haven box cars, perhaps a few PFE cars, and maybe even a few of the white MDT cars. Well, I already assigned a dozen of the BAR cars and a single MDT car, with plans for 2-3 PFE cars. Long ago Atlas had run a NH "SoM" car, but they are few and far between. Lo and behold, yesterday I received an unexpected package: A single NH "SoM" box car from lister Fred Freitas for use on this train, with a note indicating it contains potatoes! Gotta love it, thanks, Fred! With that gift-in-kind investment, Fred is now a minority stockholder in the PRR Eastern Region... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/stock.ws4d ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 07:38:43 -0800 (PST) From: Frank Smith Subject: [PRR] PRR piggyback trailers Hello, I have a question regarding short piggyback trailers, circa 1940s and 50's. What color were they? Were they tuscan like the later Tructrain trailers? Thanks for any info. Frank Smith __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 11:35:46 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] J1 at Enola? zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > I don't know the year but PRR did spread the tracks out (at >Horseshoe) farther because of the J and T class locomotives. Anyone have >any info on this? > Summer of 1945; foreman was Art Julian (now a retired professor and a volunteer with the Gallitzin tunnels museum) and a crew of 40 Mexican track workers. Started with Number 1 track and worked outward, one track at a time, doing 20 rail lengths per day. Details are on page 55 of Horseshoe Heritage. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR piggyback trailers Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 16:53:52 +0000 Frank Smith asked: "I have a question regarding short piggyback trailers, circa 1940s and 50's." No such thing as a Pennsy piggyback trailer "circa 1940s" - service wasn't inaugurated until 1954. "What color were they? Were they tuscan like the later Tructrain trailers?" Yes, but they appeared to be painted a darker shade than the later trailers: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=PR475462.JPG&fr=clF30 Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 12:07:07 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Sanborn map source From: Alex Charyna I got my first CD of maps from "seleniteman". Pretty handy for answering some questions I had about the Reading through my home town. Be aware that 1 map isn't really a complete map. For Collegeville, Pa he had 8 available, but they're really one "index" map, and 7 smaller, but higher detail, ones. -alex On Thursday, Oct 30, 2003, at 11:37 US/Eastern, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > I came across a source of Sanborn maps with a couple of caveats. This > person > will supply Sanborn maps on CD for $1.00 per map and $5.00 handling. > If the > order is more than 50 maps he gives a 10% discount and does not charge > for > shipping and handling. The only consideration (and it could be one) > is that > he is only allowed to sell maps up through the 1927 series. The web > page is > www.utahice.com which lists what is available from him by state. The > e mail > contact if you know the map designation(s) is seleniteman@comcast.net. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 12:09:35 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR piggyback trailers From: Jerry Britton On Thursday, November 6, 2003, at 11:53 AM, b.hom@att.net wrote: > Frank Smith asked: > "I have a question regarding short piggyback trailers, > circa 1940s and 50's." > > No such thing as a Pennsy piggyback trailer "circa 1940s" - service > wasn't > inaugurated until 1954. A technical clarification is in order here. True, the Pennsy did not have its own TOFC service until 1954. June, 1954. And it wasn't named "TrucTrain" until December 1954. However, the Pennsy did have a fleet of trailers prior to that. They offered "Keystone Merchandise Service" which trucked customer shipments between their sites and the freight stations. As of the early 1950's, these trailers were typically 24' and 26', single-axle, rounded front, curb side door. They had the "PENNSYLVANIA" name running in large letters diagonally from lower left to upper right. Each of the opposing open corners had keystone logos. Within one read "KEYSTONE MERCHANDISE SERVICE" and within the other "DOOR TO DOOR". When Pennsy TOFC service started, these trailers were used. However, the Pennsy soon ordered longer trailers to maximize use of the service. They started arriving late in 1954, about the time that the F39 flats started arriving. Besides "traditional" trailers, the Pennsy also owned flat bed trailers, open top trailers, and (I believe) a few tank trailers. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR piggyback trailers Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 12:32:02 -0500 Re: "I have a question regarding short piggyback trailers, circa 1940s and 50's." Paul Backenstose is in the process of writing an article on scratch building the 30' and 32' early flat end trailers for TKM. Re: "What color were they? Were they Tuscan like the later TrucTrain trailers?" This is a confusing question as the later larger TrucTrain trailers were NOT Tuscan they were a bright red, more like if not Toluidine red. The earlier trailers were a darker brownish red. I really don't know if they were a true Tuscan red or not. This was true of the PRR's motor vehicles also. The earlier were darker, the later brighter red and the MW department hi-rail vehicles were yellow. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR piggyback trailers Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 13:20:50 -0500 I heard mention on another group that Sunshine's coming out with piggyback trailers in the near future, supposedly based on PRR trailers. Does anyone have any info on these? Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Al Buchan > Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 12:32 PM > To: b.hom@att.net; 'Frank Smith' > Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR piggyback trailers > > > Re: "I have a question regarding short piggyback trailers, circa 1940s > and 50's." > > Paul Backenstose is in the process of writing an article on scratch > building the 30' and 32' early flat end trailers for TKM. > > Re: "What color were they? Were they Tuscan like the later TrucTrain > trailers?" > > This is a confusing question as the later larger TrucTrain trailers were > NOT Tuscan they were a bright red, more like if not Toluidine red. The > earlier trailers were a darker brownish red. I really don't know if they > were a true Tuscan red or not. This was true of the PRR's motor vehicles > also. The earlier were darker, the later brighter red and the MW > department hi-rail vehicles were yellow. > > Al > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR piggyback trailers Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 19:15:27 +0000 Rob Schoenberg asked: I heard mention on another group that Sunshine's coming out with piggyback trailers in the near future, supposedly based on PRR trailers. Does anyone have any info on these? Sunshine showed test shots of short trailers for PRR, B&O, NKP, and DL&W at the Naperville PM meet. No release date yet. BTW, other items of interest to the Pennsy modeler coming in the near future (no set release date) are Fruit Growers Express war emergency reefers and plug door ice reefers. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 17:00:06 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Centipedes on the main through Dayton? In a message dated 11/5/03 11:47:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] The first in a series. > From: "sjlash" > Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 18:23:55 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) > > > --------------Boundary-00=_VNJWQL80000000000000 > Content-Type: Text/Plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Jamie, Just off the top of my head, it would seem that the picture woul= > d > be in southern Ohio. If I'm not mistaken, this would have been the > Panhandle and would have gone in the direction of St Louis. I'm quite > sure there are people on this list that will pin it down for you . Jim=0D > =0D > -------Original Message-------=0D > =0D > From: Jamie Bothwell=0D > Date: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 12:23:07 AM=0D > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=0D > Subject: [PRR] The first in a series.=0D > =0D > Good evening,=0D > On page 116 of "Pennsylvania Railroad" by Schafer and Solomon in the=0D > "Railroad Color History" series there is a photo of a pair of=0D > Centipedes on single track pulling what is claimed to be the American=0D > through Manchester, OH in April, 1952. My road atlas list two=0D > Manchesters in Ohio. One is way down along the Ohio River, so there is=0D > no chance of a Pennsy line through there. The other is between Akron=0D > and Massillon. I find it hard to believe the American would be calling=0D > at either of these Manchesters on a regular basis. As a St. Louis=0D > train the American would have traveled through Coshocton, Dennison, and=0D > Steubenville. A 1952 timetable shows this train through eastern Ohio=0D > in the early to to mid morning, but not so early that the sun wouldn't=0D > be out. So, is the train shown really the American? Is it really in=0D > Manchester? If so, which one, and why? If not, what train is it,=0D > and/or where was the photo taken?=0D > Jamie Bothwell=0D Especially since this is an R.D. Acton, Sr. photo, one suspects that West Manchester, on the St. Louis main west of Dayton, could be the location. Can anyone verify that the pole line there is on the south side? For the historian, this line started -- and almost died -- as the Dayton & Western, was picked up by the Little Miami Railroad circa 1853, which was in turn leased to the Panhandle (PC&StL) in 1869. Believe it was part of the Cincinnati Division until 1928, and then became part of the Columbus (later Buckeye) Division. The route through Dayton specialized in east-west passenger (and mail) trains; most freights passed through Urbana, bypassing ugly grades and short sidings between Xenia and New Paris OH. Abandonment came by 1978. This photo is a bit of a revelation, since I didn't locate/recognize any Centipede pix several years ago when putting together a program on Dayton Ohio. Further, I don't have any Centipede shots for the Cincinnati article now in prep. I never met R.D., but I've bought some great prints he shot with K4s in and out of Dayton (I grew up on the main between Dayton and Xenia). Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Planning a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 17:00:06 EST Subject: [PRR] Centipedes on the main through Dayton? --part1_180.21fa051c.2cdc1e66_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/5/03 11:47:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] The first in a series. > From: "sjlash" > Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 18:23:55 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) > > > --------------Boundary-00=_VNJWQL80000000000000 > Content-Type: Text/Plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Jamie, Just off the top of my head, it would seem that the picture woul= > d > be in southern Ohio. If I'm not mistaken, this would have been the > Panhandle and would have gone in the direction of St Louis. I'm quite > sure there are people on this list that will pin it down for you . Jim=0D > =0D > -------Original Message-------=0D > =0D > From: Jamie Bothwell=0D > Date: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 12:23:07 AM=0D > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=0D > Subject: [PRR] The first in a series.=0D > =0D > Good evening,=0D > On page 116 of "Pennsylvania Railroad" by Schafer and Solomon in the=0D > "Railroad Color History" series there is a photo of a pair of=0D > Centipedes on single track pulling what is claimed to be the American=0D > through Manchester, OH in April, 1952. My road atlas list two=0D > Manchesters in Ohio. One is way down along the Ohio River, so there is=0D > no chance of a Pennsy line through there. The other is between Akron=0D > and Massillon. I find it hard to believe the American would be calling=0D > at either of these Manchesters on a regular basis. As a St. Louis=0D > train the American would have traveled through Coshocton, Dennison, and=0D > Steubenville. A 1952 timetable shows this train through eastern Ohio=0D > in the early to to mid morning, but not so early that the sun wouldn't=0D > be out. So, is the train shown really the American? Is it really in=0D > Manchester? If so, which one, and why? If not, what train is it,=0D > and/or where was the photo taken?=0D > Jamie Bothwell=0D Especially since this is an R.D. Acton, Sr. photo, one suspects that West Manchester, on the St. Louis main west of Dayton, could be the location. Can anyone verify that the pole line there is on the south side? For the historian, this line started -- and almost died -- as the Dayton & Western, was picked up by the Little Miami Railroad circa 1853, which was in turn leased to the Panhandle (PC&StL) in 1869. Believe it was part of the Cincinnati Division until 1928, and then became part of the Columbus (later Buckeye) Division. The route through Dayton specialized in east-west passenger (and mail) trains; most freights passed through Urbana, bypassing ugly grades and short sidings between Xenia and New Paris OH. Abandonment came by 1978. This photo is a bit of a revelation, since I didn't locate/recognize any Centipede pix several years ago when putting together a program on Dayton Ohio. Further, I don't have any Centipede shots for the Cincinnati article now in prep. I never met R.D., but I've bought some great prints he shot with K4s in and out of Dayton (I grew up on the main between Dayton and Xenia). Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Planning a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_180.21fa051c.2cdc1e66_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 11/5/03 11:47:11 PM Eastern Standar= d Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

Subject: Re: [PRR] The first in= a series.
From: "sjlash" <sjlash@tcis.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 18:23:55 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)

--------------Boundary-00=3D_VNJWQL80000000000000
Content-Type: Text/Plain;
charset=3D"iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jamie, Just off the top of my head, it would seem that the picture wou= l=3D
d
be in southern Ohio. If I'm not mistaken, this would have been t= he
Panhandle and would have gone in the direction of St Louis. = ; I'm quite
sure there are people on this list that will pin it down for you . Jim= =3D0D
=3D0D
-------Original Message-------=3D0D
=3D0D
From: Jamie Bothwell=3D0D
Date: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 12:23:07 AM=3D0D
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=3D0D
Subject: [PRR] The first in a series.=3D0D
=3D0D
Good evening,=3D0D
On page 116 of "Pennsylvania Railroad" by Schafer and Solomon in the= =3D0D
"Railroad Color History" series there is a photo of a pair of=3D0D
Centipedes on single track pulling what is claimed to be the American=3D0D through Manchester, OH in April, 1952. My road atlas list two=3D0D
Manchesters in Ohio. One is way down along the Ohio River, so there is=3D0D<= BR> no chance of a Pennsy line through there. The other is between Akron=3D0D and Massillon. I find it hard to believe the American would be calling=3D0D<= BR> at either of these Manchesters on a regular basis. As a St. Louis=3D0D
train the American would have traveled through Coshocton, Dennison, and=3D0D=
Steubenville. A 1952 timetable shows this train through eastern Ohio=3D0D in the early to to mid morning, but not so early that the sun wouldn't=3D0D<= BR> be out. So, is the train shown really the American? Is it really in=3D0D
Manchester? If so, which one, and why? If not, what train is it,=3D0D
and/or where was the photo taken?=3D0D
Jamie Bothwell=3D0D

Especially since this is an R.D. Acton, Sr. photo, one suspects that West Ma= nchester, on the St. Louis main west of Dayton, could be the location. = Can anyone verify that the pole line there is on the south side?

For the historian, this line started -- and almost died -- as the Dayton &am= p; Western, was picked up by the Little Miami Railroad circa 1853, which was= in turn leased to the Panhandle (PC&StL) in 1869. Believe it was=20= part of the Cincinnati Division until 1928, and then became part of the Colu= mbus (later Buckeye) Division. The route through Dayton specialized in= east-west passenger (and mail) trains; most freights passed through Urbana,= bypassing ugly grades and short sidings between Xenia and New Paris OH.&nbs= p; Abandonment came by 1978.

This photo is a bit of a revelation, since I didn't locate/recognize any Cen= tipede pix several years ago when putting together a program on Dayton Ohio.= Further, I don't have any Centipede shots for the Cincinnati article=20= now in prep.

I never met R.D., but I've bought some great prints he shot with K4s in and=20= out of Dayton (I grew up on the main between Dayton and Xenia).

    = ;            &nb= sp;            Rick T= ipton - Louisville KY
            &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;   Planning a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
            &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;   And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_180.21fa051c.2cdc1e66_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jeff Smith" Subject: [PRR] M1s on passenger trains Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 20:49:16 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C3A4A7.71928FB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was wondering how often the M1s were used on passenger trains and on = what assignments? Were they used on passenger trains after WWII? Thanks, Jeff Smith ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C3A4A7.71928FB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I was wondering how often the M1s were = used on=20 passenger trains and on what assignments? Were they used on = passenger=20 trains after WWII?

Thanks,

Jeff Smith

------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C3A4A7.71928FB0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "bill pokorny" Subject: Re: [PRR] Georgetown Delaware info Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 21:11:25 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0072_01C3A4AA.89DBB9E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That depends on how much time you have and how much driving you wish to = do. There are 4 railroads running on Delmarva and the all run on what = was once the Delmarva Division/Branch of the PRR. The only class one is = the Norfolk Southern with most of it's equipment still in Conrail Blue, = The Maryland and Delaware with a couple of nicely kept RS3m's and one of = those weird CF7's all done in a cross between PRR tuscan and Norfork = western maroon. There is also the Delaware Coastline and The Eastern = Shore. I am not sure of their paint schemes. The NS runs south from I = guess Wilmington and runs almost parallel to route 13 south of Dover. = Then I believe at Harrington it branches off toward the east then south = right thru Gtown where it interchanges with the DE Coastline. Also right = in Georgetown is the old Georgetown station which went through a very = unfortunate resurfacing some years back . There is also the remnants of = an engine house. If you come into Gtown from route 9 go 1/2 way around = the circle and continue east to the crossing look left and you will see = the station . If you squint just right you will also see the old engine = house [it's been heavily remodeled] . If you turn right at the crossing = you will get to the interchange in about 2 blocks or so. Other points = of interest are Seaford interchange yard connects to the Maryland and DE = also Dupont Plant where those WWII parachutes started life as nylon, = some waterfront railroading, a moveable bridge and the old PRR station. = Delmar DE further down the mainline has a ball signal and other PRR = artifacts along the mainline. By the way if you do get to Delmar the = cabin car is not a cabin car but a B&O caboose. There is also a small = museum that is manned actually womened in the Library on Sat = mornings. Further down the mainline in Salisbury is a beautiful = station on the left of route 13. If you have lots of time and like to = drive let me know there are a number of other interesting places on = Delmarva. BillP ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ndbprr@att.net=20 To: PRR-Talk=20 Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 8:42 AM Subject: [PRR] Georgetown Delaware info ON Saturday Nov. 8 I have to visit my In-laws for the day in = Georgetown=20 Delaware. Is there anything in the area I should make the effort to = see=20 related to the PRR? Thanks = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0072_01C3A4AA.89DBB9E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

That depends on how much time you have and how much driving = you wish=20 to do. There are 4 railroads running on Delmarva and the all run on what = was=20 once the Delmarva Division/Branch of the PRR. The only class one is the = Norfolk=20 Southern with most of it's equipment still in Conrail Blue, The Maryland = and=20 Delaware with a couple of nicely kept RS3m's and one of those weird = CF7's=20 all done in a cross between PRR tuscan and Norfork western maroon. There = is also=20 the Delaware Coastline and The Eastern Shore. I am not sure of = their paint=20 schemes. The NS runs south from I guess Wilmington and runs almost = parallel to=20 route 13 south of Dover. Then I believe at Harrington it branches off = toward the=20 east then south right thru Gtown where it interchanges with the DE=20 Coastline. Also right in Georgetown is the old Georgetown station which = went=20 through a very unfortunate resurfacing some years back . There is also = the=20 remnants of an engine house. If you come into Gtown from route 9 go 1/2 = way=20 around the circle and continue east to the crossing look left and you = will see=20 the station . If you squint just right you will also see the old engine = house=20 [it's been heavily remodeled] . If you turn right =20 at the crossing you will get to the interchange in about 2 = blocks or=20 so. Other points of interest are Seaford interchange yard = connects=20 to the Maryland and DE also Dupont Plant where those WWII parachutes = started=20 life as nylon, some waterfront railroading, a moveable=20 bridge and the old PRR station. Delmar DE further down the=20 mainline has a ball signal and other PRR artifacts along the = mainline.=20 By the way if you do get to Delmar the cabin car is not a cabin car but = a=20 B&O caboose. There is also a small museum that is manned = actually womened in the Library on =20 Sat mornings. Further down the = mainline=20 in Salisbury is a beautiful station on the left of route 13. = If you=20 have lots of time and like to drive let me know there are a number of = other=20 interesting places on Delmarva. BillP

----- Original Message -----

From: ndbprr@att.net

To: PRR-Talk

Sent: Saturday, October 18, = 2003 8:42=20 AM

Subject: [PRR] Georgetown = Delaware=20 info

ON Saturday Nov. 8 I have to visit my In-laws for the = day in=20 Georgetown
Delaware. Is there anything in the area I should = make the=20 effort to see
related to the PRR? =20 = Thanks

-----------------------------------------------------------= ------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------=_NextPart_000_0072_01C3A4AA.89DBB9E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 23:20:24 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] M1s on passenger trains --------------040402000405040807040308 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeff Smith wrote: > I was wondering how often the M1s were used on passenger trains and on > what assignments? Were they used on passenger trains after WWII? M1s were often found on Harrisburg-Buffalo/Erie passenger trains, where the speed of a K4 wasn't necessarily always needed. They operated in this service both before and after WWII. They also operated occasionally in passenger service on the main line Harrisburg-Pittsburgh, but the higher speeds of that route meant that K4s, either singly or doubleheaded, were more often assigned. In PRR's limited assignments of 4-8-2s in passenger service, the company assigned M1s, but not M1a's, which for reasons that were intensely investigated by PRR but never completely resolved, turned out to be a disaster. The railroad spent a couple of years unsuccessfully trying to figure out why the 10 passenger M1a's (6700-6709, steam-heat piping, gold-leaf striping on cabs and tenders, etc.) consistently failed on the road while the M1s did not, but all M1a's were fine in freight service. It had something to do with the drafting of gases in the smokebox and PRR never did figure out what the problem was. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. --------------040402000405040807040308 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeff Smith wrote:

I was wondering how often the M1s were used on passenger trains and on what assignments? Were they used on passenger trains after WWII?

M1s were often found on Harrisburg-Buffalo/Erie passenger trains, where the speed of a K4 wasn't necessarily always needed. They operated in this service both before and after WWII. They also operated occasionally in passenger service on the main line Harrisburg-Pittsburgh, but the higher speeds of that route meant that K4s, either singly or doubleheaded, were more often assigned. In PRR's limited assignments of 4-8-2s in passenger service, the company assigned M1s, but not M1a's, which for reasons that were intensely investigated by PRR but never completely resolved, turned out to be a disaster. The railroad spent a couple of years unsuccessfully trying to figure out why the 10 passenger M1a's (6700-6709, steam-heat piping, gold-leaf striping on cabs and tenders, etc.) consistently failed on the road while the M1s did not, but all M1a's were fine in freight service. It had something to do with the drafting of gases in the smokebox and PRR never did figure out what the problem was.

Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, Pa.
--------------040402000405040807040308-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] M1s on passenger trains Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 22:26:10 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0264_01C3A4B4.FAD41F20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jeff--You asked about M1's on passenger trains after WWII. Others = can answer about west of Harrisburg. On trains between Harrisburg and = Buffalo/Erie, 6810, 6811, 6845, and 6861 were used well into the 50's. = 6810 still had its 130P75 tender in 1957. 6861 by 1955 had a 210F75a = tender and probably was used only for freight by then. There may have = been other M1's ion this service, but for these I have seen photo = evidence. Steve Hoxie=20 Pensacola FL ------=_NextPart_000_0264_01C3A4B4.FAD41F20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Jeff--You asked about M1's on = passenger trains=20 after WWII. Others can answer about west of Harrisburg. On = trains between Harrisburg and Buffalo/Erie, 6810, 6811, 6845, and = 6861=20 were used well into the 50's. 6810 still had its 130P75 = tender in=20 1957. 6861 by 1955 had a 210F75a tender and probably was used = only for=20 freight by then. There may have been other M1's ion this = service,=20 but for these I have seen photo evidence.

Steve Hoxie

Pensacola=20 FL

------=_NextPart_000_0264_01C3A4B4.FAD41F20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Kessler" Subject: [PRR] RE: PRR-Talk Digest - 11/06/03 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 23:16:04 -0800 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 8:24 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: PRR-Talk Digest - 11/06/03 Subject: M1s on passenger trains From: "Jeff Smith" Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 20:49:16 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C3A4A7.71928FB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was wondering how often the M1s were used on passenger trains and on = what assignments? Were they used on passenger trains after WWII? I defer to others regarding use of M1s west and north of Harrisburg, but I have personally seen M1s on the Jersey City to Bay Head Jct. "Broker" in the early 1950's. One of the M1s was involved in a tragic crash in Woodbridge, NJ, in 1951, I believe, caused by excessive speed through a shoofly. Bob Kessler ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 07:51:43 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Georgetown Delaware info A couple of add on bits of Information: THe Eastern Shore Railroad (ESHR) runs from Pocomoke City, MD to Cape Charles, VA and then by car float to Little Creek (Norfolk), Va with a short branch to Norfolk Southern and the Beltline. Locomotives are mostly Conrail blue but the newer two are dark blue (ala FEC). One repaired unit has a warbonnet short hood! NS runs south to Pocomoke over the swing bridge across the river and the well cared for CASSATT interlocking tower. The Pocomoke station has been repaired and belongs to the town. Princess Anne still exists but is private. The is a beautifully restored NYP&N station at Parksley, VA home to the ES Railway museum, complete with an X23 work car and an odd assortment of other stuff...This is about 20 miles south of Pocomoke and is open Saturdays I think. There are other preserved stations at Exmore and Cape Charles and some original NYP&N/PRR building at Cape Charles and Little Creek. see: http://trainweb.org/peninsularailfan/index.html which seems not to work today but is a guide with maps and photos of Delmarva RRs. Enjoy your trip Jim McDaniel, in southern Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: Re: [PRR] M1s on passenger trains Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 09:25:01 -0500 The following page has pictures of M1 #6845 wreck at Garland, PA on the P&E, 2/2/47: http://www.tbscc.com/users/warren/cliff_lawson.htm The ICC crash investigation of that wreck can be found at: http://dotlibrary1.specialcollection.net/scripts/ws.dll?browse&rn=3055" Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 11:26 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] M1s on passenger trains Hi Jeff--You asked about M1's on passenger trains after WWII. Others can answer about west of Harrisburg. On trains between Harrisburg and Buffalo/Erie, 6810, 6811, 6845, and 6861 were used well into the 50's. 6810 still had its 130P75 tender in 1957. 6861 by 1955 had a 210F75a tender and probably was used only for freight by then. There may have been other M1's ion this service, but for these I have seen photo evidence. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 10:26:42 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Notable Open Houses This Weekend From: Jerry Britton From the Timetable page on Keystone Crossings ( http://kc.pennsyrr.com/timetable.ws4d ) I would like to highlight two open houses very worthy of a visit, if you are in the area. Charlie Corangi in Newark, Del., will be open tonight (Friday). He models the PRR from Washington to Wilmington, plus the Port Road up to Harrisburg. He has an absolutely awesome representation of the Harrisburg passenger station in the snow during the late evening. The snow, lighting, and everything is perfect, right down to flickering torches on the switch points! Bill Kachel in Kennett Square, Pa., will be open tomorrow afternoon (Saturday). Bill is the unofficial "Father PRR Catenary Modeling" (his instructions are available online) and you will be amazed at the wire he has constructed on his layout! Other tidbit is that on Sunday the Northern Central Chapter of the PRRT&HS meets at 1:30 p.m. at the Otterbein United Methodist Church, in York, Pa. The program will be a slide show of images taken by David Graeff. His work has appeared in many Morning Sun Books. You need not be a member to attend. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 11:06:37 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] M1s on passenger trains Interesting. 6845 had the modern "cast" pilot, but the original headlight and generator position! Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= Jerry Shickler wrote: > The following page has pictures of M1 #6845 wreck at Garland, PA on the P&E, > 2/2/47: > http://www.tbscc.com/users/warren/cliff_lawson.htm > > The ICC crash investigation of that wreck can be found at: > http://dotlibrary1.specialcollection.net/scripts/ws.dll?browse&rn=3055" > > Jerry Shickler > Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: > http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" > To: "PRR-Talk" > Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 11:26 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] M1s on passenger trains > > Hi Jeff--You asked about M1's on passenger trains after WWII. Others can > answer about west of Harrisburg. On trains between Harrisburg and > Buffalo/Erie, 6810, 6811, 6845, and 6861 were used well into the 50's. 6810 > still had its 130P75 tender in 1957. 6861 by 1955 had a 210F75a tender and > probably was used only for freight by then. There may have been other M1's > ion this service, but for these I have seen photo evidence. > > Steve Hoxie > Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Nesbitt" Subject: RE: [PRR] Notable Open Houses This Weekend Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 11:37:46 -0500 Bill Kachel in Kennett Square, Pa., How does one get the address ? Thanks Kenny -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 10:27 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Notable Open Houses This Weekend From the Timetable page on Keystone Crossings ( http://kc.pennsyrr.com/timetable.ws4d ) I would like to highlight two open houses very worthy of a visit, if you are in the area. Charlie Corangi in Newark, Del., will be open tonight (Friday). He models the PRR from Washington to Wilmington, plus the Port Road up to Harrisburg. He has an absolutely awesome representation of the Harrisburg passenger station in the snow during the late evening. The snow, lighting, and everything is perfect, right down to flickering torches on the switch points! Bill Kachel in Kennett Square, Pa., will be open tomorrow afternoon (Saturday). Bill is the unofficial "Father PRR Catenary Modeling" (his instructions are available online) and you will be amazed at the wire he has constructed on his layout! Other tidbit is that on Sunday the Northern Central Chapter of the PRRT&HS meets at 1:30 p.m. at the Otterbein United Methodist Church, in York, Pa. The program will be a slide show of images taken by David Graeff. His work has appeared in many Morning Sun Books. You need not be a member to attend. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _____________________________________________________ This message scanned for viruses by CoreComm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] M1s on passenger trains Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 10:37:54 -0600 I knew I had seen one somewhere! That is the variation I have modeled, but couldn't find the photo later of one I had seen. I wonder if the other photo was of 6845 or if there was one or more others. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew S. Miller" > Interesting. 6845 had the modern "cast" pilot, but the original headlight and > generator position! > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 11:40:17 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Notable Open Houses This Weekend From: Jerry Britton On Friday, November 7, 2003, at 11:37 AM, Ken Nesbitt wrote: > Bill Kachel in Kennett Square, Pa., > How does one get the address ? Addresses for the open houses are on the Timetable web page, as mentioned in the original post. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 11:48:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] M1s on passenger trains Bob, You may be thinking of 6783. The one Don Wood documented in his book "I Remember Pennsy". I too converted an old Gem model to represent the 6783. Still have it. There are others as well that show up in photos. But my guess there was more K4s's done this way than M1's.. ........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Notable Open Houses This Weekend Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 13:58:10 -0500 Gents, I will be presenting the slides (with the assistance of Mr. Graeff if he's in attendance) on Sunday and have picked 8 magazines from 1956-1967 with photos from Rockville to Altoona, to Penn Coach Yards, to Enola. In realtion to PRR content I tossed in Norfolk & Western steam at Roanoke and Blue Ridge. Its guarenteed to be program of "WOW". Hope to see some of you there on Sunday. Regards, John ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry wrote: Other tidbit is that on Sunday the Northern Central Chapter of the PRRT&HS meets at 1:30 p.m. at the Otterbein United Methodist Church, in York, Pa. The program will be a slide show of images taken by David Graeff. His work has appeared in many Morning Sun Books. You need not be a member to attend. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] M1s on passenger trains Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 12:29:34 -0700 Actually it's not so unusual...the "cast" (actually fabricated) pilot started showing up in 1940, while the reversed headlight and generator positions didn't start being applied until 1947 or so, so this would not be an atypical configuration for a locomotive circa 1947. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 11:06:37 -0500 "Andrew S. Miller" wrote: > Interesting. 6845 had the modern "cast" pilot, but the > original headlight and > generator position! > > Regards, > > Andrew S. Miller > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 15:17:54 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: PRR-Talk Digest - 11/06/03 --part1_a3.4bbf12a7.2cdd57f2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, The BROKER of Woodbridge wreck fame was K4s 2445. Pat McKinney --part1_a3.4bbf12a7.2cdd57f2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob,
The BROKER of Woodbridge wr= eck fame was K4s 2445.

Pat McKinney --part1_a3.4bbf12a7.2cdd57f2_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] M1s on passenger trains Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 15:38:16 -0600 Andrew S. Miller wrote: > > Interesting. 6845 had the modern "cast" pilot, but the original headlight and > generator position! > But remember this was 1947, a time of lots of transitions. In the Keystone of September 1979 on page 14 is a photo of 6845 with the modern pilot, headlight on top of the smokebox and generator on the smokebox front. The markers are the first style of the small type. The photo is by Clarence Weaver and is captioned as train #570 in 1948. Tender is a 130P75. The train even has a milk tank car on the rear! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: FW: [PRR] Liljestrand & Sweetland Parlor Book Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 18:42:38 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C3A55E.EC4E01F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re: Question asked the other day - Interesting book. Answers many questions. however it raises at least one. The picture of the 26 &1 parlor car on page 6 named JESSIE is out of place my sources indicate that it was a Mopac car, Why was in a PRR book, a mistake or was it necessary to fill the page? Author Dave Sweetland says - The car was in PRR/LIRR service in 1936 when photographed at Long Island City. Al ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C3A55E.EC4E01F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

Re:=20 Question asked the other day - Interesting book.=20 Answers many questions. however it raises at least one. The picture of = the 26=20 &1 parlor car on page 6 named JESSIE is out of place my sources = indicate=20 that it was a Mopac car, Why was in a PRR book, a mistake or was it = necessary to=20 fill the page?

Author=20 Dave Sweetland says -

The car was in PRR/LIRR service = in 1936 when=20 photographed at Long Island City.

------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C3A55E.EC4E01F0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] MRIA meeting Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 20:37:15 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C3A56E.EE337080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Coincident with Milwaukee Trainfest, the Model Railroad Industry = Association meets and invites dealers. Of some interest to this list: BLI schedule as of now (estimates only, obviously) is: USRA 4-8-2 end of November PRR M1a and M1b December PRR T1 January NW2 about April Forgot to ask about J1, but will check with them tomorrow. They expressed considerable interest in offering 6-packs of K7A = stockcars without sound. Des Plaines Hobbies PRR P85 first run is sold out. Next run of P85 with = Keystone herald is underway. Working on next car model. No ETA Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C3A56E.EE337080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Coincident with Milwaukee Trainfest, = the Model=20 Railroad Industry Association meets and invites dealers. Of some = interest=20 to this list:

BLI schedule as of now (estimates only, = obviously)=20 is:

USRA 4-8-2 end of November

PRR M1a and M1b = December

PRR T1 January

NW2 about April

Forgot to ask about J1, but will check = with them=20 tomorrow.

They expressed considerable = interest in=20 offering 6-packs of K7A stockcars without sound.

Des Plaines Hobbies PRR P85 first run = is sold=20 out. Next run of P85 with Keystone herald is underway. = Working on=20 next car model. No ETA

Bob Zoeller

------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C3A56E.EE337080-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 20:50:35 -0600 From: Randy Subject: [PRR] MRIA meeting/Trainfest --=====================_227009031==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed If anyone from the group will be at the show on Saturday, Dayna and I will be there on Saturday morning. Just look for a couple with Pennsy jackets and Keystone wedding rings. Dayna & Randy Williamson --=====================_227009031==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" If anyone from the group will be at the show on Saturday, Dayna and I will be there on Saturday morning. Just look for a couple with Pennsy jackets and Keystone wedding rings.

Dayna & Randy Williamson --=====================_227009031==.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "DON MURPHY" Subject: [PRR] The PRR Just West of the Federal Street Curve Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 09:02:57 -0500 http://live11.truelook.com/face/newface.jsp?func=live&name=/accuwthr/pal ive&overlay=default&skin=adc_pitlive&useapplet=true&time=1068299004219&w idth=640&height=480&quality=65&catalogname=catalog&preset=default/The+Tr acks This link shows the former PRR just west of the Federal Street curve in Pittsburgh's north side. Great for train watching when it's too cold outside. Click refresh to update the view. Don Murphy Recreating Operations on the Renovo Division of the PRR Circa 1946 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "L. Heintz" Subject: [PRR] Passenger car model Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 04:02:48 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C3A5AD.2C3B12A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A number of years ago I sent a check to reserve a new passenger car by ,I think, the Middle Division. I thought that it as related to the = PRRT&HS. Exactly who or what was this organization ?? Did the car ever get produced ?? What happened to the reservation = deposits?? =20 lah ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C3A5AD.2C3B12A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

A number of years ago I sent a check to reserve = a new=20 passenger car

by ,I think, the Middle Division. I thought that it = as related=20 to the PRRT&HS.

Exactly who or what was this organization = ??

Did the car ever get produced ?? What happened = to the=20 reservation deposits??

lah

------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C3A5AD.2C3B12A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger car model Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 11:37:06 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C3A5EC.A36B77E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable L. Heintz wrote: "A number of years ago I sent a check to reserve a new passenger car by, = I think, the Middle Division. I thought that it as related to the = PRRT&HS. Exactly who or what was this organization ??" I'll leave someone who's more in the know to explain Middle Division's = situation, but they're a separate company, NOT a part of the PRRT&HS.=20 "Did the car ever get produced ?? What happened to the reservation = deposits??" Middle Division never released the car (a P85BR coach), and the rights = and the tooling were purchased by Des Plaines Hobbies of Des Plaines, = Illinois. After much work to upgrade the tooling, the car is now close = to release - I took a look at test shots and an assembled model on = display when I was up at the Naperville RPM meet two weeks ago, and the = model looks fantastic, including the trucks. More info, including = photos, are at: http://www.desplaineshobbies.com/centralia.html I also had sent in a reservation deposit years back, and got it returned = by Middle Division. I've got no idea what the status is of any = remaining deposits. You might want to contact Des Plaines Hobbies: = (847) 297-2118, dphobbies@earthlink.net Ben Hom ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C3A5EC.A36B77E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

L. Heintz wrote:

"A number of years ago I sent a = check to=20 reserve a new passenger car by, I think, the Middle Division. I = thought=20 that it as related to the PRRT&HS. Exactly who or what was this organization=20 ??"

I'll leave someone who's more in the = know to=20 explain Middle Division's situation, but they're a separate company, NOT = a part of the PRRT&HS.

"Did the=20 car ever get produced ?? What happened to the reservation=20 deposits??"

Middle Division never released the = car (a=20 P85BR coach), and the rights and the tooling were purchased by Des = Plaines=20 Hobbies of Des Plaines, Illinois. After much work to upgrade the = tooling,=20 the car is now close to release - I took a look at test shots and an = assembled=20 model on display when I was up at the Naperville RPM meet two weeks ago, = and the=20 model looks fantastic, including the trucks. More info, including = photos,=20 are at:

http://www.despl= aineshobbies.com/centralia.html

I also had sent in a reservation = deposit years=20 back, and got it returned by Middle Division. I've got no idea = what the=20 status is of any remaining deposits. You might want = to contact=20 Des Plaines Hobbies: (847)=20 297-2118, dphobbies@earthlink.net

Ben Hom

------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C3A5EC.A36B77E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 12:33:30 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger car model --part1_a5.41a686b1.2cde82ea_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ben writes... > I also had sent in a reservation deposit years back, and got it returned by > Middle Division. I've got no idea what the status is of any remaining > deposits. You might want to contact ... Iah, I am sure Ben was pointing you towards Des Plaines Hobbies in hopes you could get in touch with the owner of Middle Division. I am sure we all realize that any problems that existed prior to Des Plaines acquiring the tooling would be Nick's own responsibility... I am sure Nick was paid a sum for the tooling as it existed and I would have thought that monies would have been returned to all whom were owed, but again I didn't realize anyone was reimbursed as all I have ever heard was from those claiming to have been "burned." Who knows the truth after all these years... Seems to me I had Nick Seaman's email address ... perhaps someone else can provide it to you privately off list. Greg Martin --part1_a5.41a686b1.2cde82ea_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ben writes...

I also had sent in a reservation deposit years back,=20= and got it returned by Middle Division. I've got no idea what the stat= us is of any remaining deposits. You might want to contact ...

Iah,

I am sure Ben was pointing you towards Des Plaines Hobbies in hopes you coul= d get in touch with the owner of Middle Division. I am sure we all realize t= hat any problems that existed prior to Des Plaines acquiring the tooling wou= ld be Nick's own responsibility... I am sure Nick was paid a sum for t= he tooling as it existed and I would have thought that monies would have bee= n returned to all whom were owed, but again I didn't realize anyone was reim= bursed as all I have ever heard was from those claiming to have been "burned= ." Who knows the truth after all these years... Seems to me I had Nick= Seaman's email address ... perhaps someone else can provide it to you priva= tely off list.

Greg Martin
--part1_a5.41a686b1.2cde82ea_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger car model Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 12:40:42 -0500 On Nov 8, 2003, at 12:37 PM, Benjamin Frank Hom wrote: > Middle Division never released the car (a P85BR coach), and the rights=20= > and the tooling were purchased by Des Plaines Hobbies of Des Plaines,=20= > Illinois.=A0 After much work to upgrade the tooling, the car is now=20 > close to release And the first run, a series of 12 road numbers, is already sold out,=20 prior to release. I hear the second run will be the later "keystone"=20 scheme. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger car model Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 13:25:27 -0500 On Nov 8, 2003, at 12:33 PM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > > I am sure Ben was pointing you towards Des Plaines Hobbies in hopes=20 > you could get in touch with the owner of Middle Division. I am sure we=20= > all realize that any problems that existed prior to Des Plaines=20 > acquiring the tooling would be Nick's own responsibility...=A0 I am = sure=20 > Nick was paid a sum for the tooling as it existed and I would have=20 > thought that monies would have been returned to all whom were owed,=20 > but again I didn't realize anyone was reimbursed as all I have ever=20 > heard was from those claiming to have been "burned." Who knows the=20 > truth after all these years...=A0 Seems to me I had Nick Seaman's = email=20 > address ... perhaps someone else can provide it to you privately off=20= > list. Nick recently posted in the PRRT&HS Forum...I think it was a thread on=20= the N scale P85's (which he did not tool). If you find that thread you=20= might be able to track him down. Last I knew he was in Camp Hill, Pa.,=20= but that was a few years ago. I also read in the PRRT&HS Forum that he sold off all of his Middle=20 Division decal inventory. The announcement did not say he was out of=20 business, per se, but it did seem implied. Why else would you sell out=20= all of your inventory? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 13:32:33 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger car model On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, Jerry @ Pennsy wrote: > I also read in the PRRT&HS Forum that he sold off all of his Middle > Division decal inventory. The announcement did not say he was out of > business, per se, but it did seem implied. Why else would you sell out > all of your inventory? Concentrate on making new stuff without having money tied up in inventory? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Online Locomotive Coaling Facilities Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 13:59:28 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C3A600.866E6B20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is there a list anywhere of steam era on-line locomotive coaling = facilities? Pennsy (along with many other railroads) was fond of using = on-line coaling facilities/service facilities outside major yards to = relieve congestion and speed service of locomotives on through trains. My specific question applies to the Buffalo Line (Susquehanna Division, = Northern Division, etc. during the 40's/early 50's). There was an = on-line coaling facility at Linden (Nisbit Jcn.) across the river from = Williamsport & Newberry Yard with two coaling towers that was used right = up to the end of steam. Looking at mileages from = Harrisburg/Enola/Northumberland and Buffalo, it appears there should = have been another one in the vicinity of Keating Summit, but look as I = might, I've never found evidence of it. I've searched track charts, = employee TT's, books, etc. There was a short siding at Wrights at the = bottom of the west (north) slope of Keating hill, presumably used for = helpers to wait for trains. Might it also have contained an on-line = coaling tower? As I remember from track charts it was located between = the two mainline tracks. This seems like a likely location mileage = wise. =20 The only other possibility I've come up with is that they used the = coaling facility at Emporium since they had to stop there for helpers = anyway, and it wasn't a major yard, so congestion wouldn't have been a = factor. And they serviced the Keating Hill helpers there, so certainly = would have had the facilities and capacity. Either way, I've never seen = reference to it or to locomotives stopping for service in that area. = Can anyone help? TIA. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C3A600.866E6B20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Is there a list anywhere of steam era on-line = locomotive=20 coaling facilities? Pennsy (along with many other railroads) was = fond of=20 using on-line coaling facilities/service facilities outside major yards = to=20 relieve congestion and speed service of locomotives on through=20 trains.

My specific question applies to the Buffalo Line = (Susquehanna Division, Northern Division, etc. during the 40's/early=20 50's). There was an on-line coaling facility at Linden (Nisbit = Jcn.)=20 across the river from Williamsport & Newberry Yard with two coaling = towers=20 that was used right up to the end of steam. Looking at mileages = from=20 Harrisburg/Enola/Northumberland and Buffalo, it appears there should = have been=20 another one in the vicinity of Keating Summit, but look as I might, I've = never=20 found evidence of it. I've searched track charts, employee TT's, = books,=20 etc. There was a short siding at Wrights at the bottom of the west = (north)=20 slope of Keating hill, presumably used for helpers to wait for = trains. =20 Might it also have contained an on-line coaling tower? As I = remember from=20 track charts it was located between the two mainline tracks. This = seems=20 like a likely location mileage wise.

The only other possibility I've come up with is = that they=20 used the coaling facility at Emporium since they had to stop there for = helpers=20 anyway, and it wasn't a major yard, so congestion wouldn't have been a=20 factor. And they serviced the Keating Hill helpers there, so=20 certainly would have had the facilities and capacity. Either = way,=20 I've never seen reference to it or to locomotives stopping for service = in that=20 area. Can anyone help? TIA.

Bill Bigler - 4915
Big Flats NY
Modeling = PRR Renovo=20 &
     Williamsport = WWII
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C3A600.866E6B20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Passenger car model Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 17:43:27 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C3A61F.D1886600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re: The Middle Division and its passenger car model. The PRRT&HS has a Chapter headquartered in Lewistown, PA know as the Middle Division Chapter. However, the company that went by the name "Middle Division" of New Cumberland, PA, has absolutely no affiliation with the PRRT&HS. It was most unfortunate that the Middle Division's Nick Seaman experienced so much trouble in developing the P85BR as the initial preproduction models he had were excellent. I for one had seven kits on reserve. However, after it became clear that its release would be greatly delayed I got a complete refund from Nick, as did many other people. I suggest you contact Nick to resolve any issues you might have with the company. Al Buchan President PRRT&HS ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C3A61F.D1886600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Re: = The Middle=20 Division and its passenger car model.

The = PRRT&HS=20 has a Chapter headquartered in Lewistown, PA know as the Middle Division = Chapter. However, the company that went by the name "Middle Division" of = New=20 Cumberland, PA, has absolutely no affiliation with the=20 PRRT&HS.

It = was most=20 unfortunate that the Middle Division's Nick Seaman experienced so much = trouble=20 in developing the P85BR as the initial preproduction models he had were=20 excellent. I for one had seven kits on reserve. However, after it became = clear=20 that its release would be greatly delayed I got a complete refund from = Nick, as=20 did many other people.

I = suggest you=20 contact Nick to resolve any issues you might have with the=20 company.

Al=20 Buchan

President=20 PRRT&HS

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C3A61F.D1886600-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mike Morrow" Subject: [PRR] Elmira Branch Rail Size Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 21:59:04 -0500 Can anyone on the list tell me what size rail was used on the Elmira Branch ca.1956 Williamsport to Elmira? My track charts are photocopies so I can't read the color code. Thanks. Mike Morrow ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 07:36:00 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Why the Dayton line wasn't double track. In a message dated 11/7/03 9:56:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, vze4cs43@verizon.net writes: > Subj:Re: [PRR] Centipedes on the main through Dayton? > Date:11/7/03 9:56:47 PM Eastern Standard Time > From:vze4cs43@verizon.net > To:RickTipton@aol.com > Sent from the Internet > > > > > Especially since this is an R.D. Acton, Sr. photo, one suspects that > > West Manchester, on the St. Louis main west of Dayton, could be the > > location. Can anyone verify that the pole line there is on the south > > side? > > > > For the historian, this line started -- and almost died -- as the > > Dayton & Western, was picked up by the Little Miami Railroad circa > > 1853, which was in turn leased to the Panhandle (PC&StL) in 1869. > > Believe it was part of the Cincinnati Division until 1928, and then > > became part of the Columbus (later Buckeye) Division. The route > > through Dayton specialized in east-west passenger (and mail) trains; > > most freights passed through Urbana, bypassing ugly grades and short > > sidings between Xenia and New Paris OH. Abandonment came by 1978. > > > > This photo is a bit of a revelation, since I didn't locate/recognize > > any Centipede pix several years ago when putting together a program on > > Dayton Ohio. Further, I don't have any Centipede shots for the > > Cincinnati article now in prep. > > > > I never met R.D., but I've bought some great prints he shot with K4s > > in and out of Dayton (I grew up on the main between Dayton and Xenia). > > > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > > Planning a new Panhandle Route in HO > > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > > > Rick, > Thanks. Your answer is most likely. Of course, only one other person > replied. The photo says the train is westbound. If so the pole line > is on the south, but you probably know that since you seem to know the > photo. Is the line to St. Louis single tracked? I would have thought > it to be at least two tracks. Thanks again. > Jamie > A good question -- much of the Panhandle between Pittsburgh and Indianapolis was double tracked. However, most freight traffic did not follow the "passenger main" through Dayton, instead being routed through Urbana and Bradford on a double tracked segment of the Columbus-Chicago main, then across a single track segment to rejoin the passenger main at New Paris, OH (which is just west of West Manchester, almost on the Indiana state line). This rerouting to the north of Dayton was a high-volume, low-grade, double track crossing of the Miami Valley without the awful grades in and out of Dayton (the valley deepens to a 400 foot depression at Dayton). The Dayton routing carried some (later all) of the first class trains to St. Louis. Because of its 1850's heritage, the line from Xenia through Dayton to New Paris never got the kind of rebuild that benefited many other parts of the Pennsy, and much of its primeval grades and curves remained, along with infrequent and short passing sidings. As a veteran PRR engineer says, "If you got out of Xenia with more than two K4s and 16 cars, you were in trouble before you reached Dayton". You can really see the difference in traffic (and investment) on the part of the line from Columbus to Xenia. This line segment carried traffic for both Dayton and Cincinnati. Granted, this is easier terrain (Ohio's "Central Glacial Till", but the land still rises and falls, and yet the railroad was straight, double tracked, and has only minor grades. There were even a few road overpasses/underpasses (not that common for southwest Ohio). You could stand on the station platform at Xenia and see the difference -- the double track line from Columbus simply continued straight past the station and became the "Little Miami" to Cincinnati. By comparison, the single track Dayton line torqued off north on a fairly tight curve. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Planning a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 07:36:00 EST Subject: [PRR] Why the Dayton line wasn't double track. --part1_1d5.13e198d8.2cdf8eb0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/7/03 9:56:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, vze4cs43@verizon.net writes: > Subj:Re: [PRR] Centipedes on the main through Dayton? > Date:11/7/03 9:56:47 PM Eastern Standard Time > From:vze4cs43@verizon.net > To:RickTipton@aol.com > Sent from the Internet > > > > > Especially since this is an R.D. Acton, Sr. photo, one suspects that > > West Manchester, on the St. Louis main west of Dayton, could be the > > location. Can anyone verify that the pole line there is on the south > > side? > > > > For the historian, this line started -- and almost died -- as the > > Dayton & Western, was picked up by the Little Miami Railroad circa > > 1853, which was in turn leased to the Panhandle (PC&StL) in 1869. > > Believe it was part of the Cincinnati Division until 1928, and then > > became part of the Columbus (later Buckeye) Division. The route > > through Dayton specialized in east-west passenger (and mail) trains; > > most freights passed through Urbana, bypassing ugly grades and short > > sidings between Xenia and New Paris OH. Abandonment came by 1978. > > > > This photo is a bit of a revelation, since I didn't locate/recognize > > any Centipede pix several years ago when putting together a program on > > Dayton Ohio. Further, I don't have any Centipede shots for the > > Cincinnati article now in prep. > > > > I never met R.D., but I've bought some great prints he shot with K4s > > in and out of Dayton (I grew up on the main between Dayton and Xenia). > > > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > > Planning a new Panhandle Route in HO > > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > > > Rick, > Thanks. Your answer is most likely. Of course, only one other person > replied. The photo says the train is westbound. If so the pole line > is on the south, but you probably know that since you seem to know the > photo. Is the line to St. Louis single tracked? I would have thought > it to be at least two tracks. Thanks again. > Jamie > A good question -- much of the Panhandle between Pittsburgh and Indianapolis was double tracked. However, most freight traffic did not follow the "passenger main" through Dayton, instead being routed through Urbana and Bradford on a double tracked segment of the Columbus-Chicago main, then across a single track segment to rejoin the passenger main at New Paris, OH (which is just west of West Manchester, almost on the Indiana state line). This rerouting to the north of Dayton was a high-volume, low-grade, double track crossing of the Miami Valley without the awful grades in and out of Dayton (the valley deepens to a 400 foot depression at Dayton). The Dayton routing carried some (later all) of the first class trains to St. Louis. Because of its 1850's heritage, the line from Xenia through Dayton to New Paris never got the kind of rebuild that benefited many other parts of the Pennsy, and much of its primeval grades and curves remained, along with infrequent and short passing sidings. As a veteran PRR engineer says, "If you got out of Xenia with more than two K4s and 16 cars, you were in trouble before you reached Dayton". You can really see the difference in traffic (and investment) on the part of the line from Columbus to Xenia. This line segment carried traffic for both Dayton and Cincinnati. Granted, this is easier terrain (Ohio's "Central Glacial Till", but the land still rises and falls, and yet the railroad was straight, double tracked, and has only minor grades. There were even a few road overpasses/underpasses (not that common for southwest Ohio). You could stand on the station platform at Xenia and see the difference -- the double track line from Columbus simply continued straight past the station and became the "Little Miami" to Cincinnati. By comparison, the single track Dayton line torqued off north on a fairly tight curve. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Planning a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_1d5.13e198d8.2cdf8eb0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 11/7/03 9:56:47 PM Eastern Standard= Time, vze4cs43@verizon.net writes:

Subj:Re: [PRR] Centipedes on= the main through Dayton?
Date:11/7/03 9:56:47 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:vze4cs43@verizon.net
To:RickTipton@aol.com
Sent from the Internet

> Especially since this is an R.D. Acton, Sr. photo, one suspects that > West Manchester, on the St. Louis main west of Dayton, could be the > location. Can anyone verify that the pole line there is on the so= uth
> side?
>
> For the historian, this line started -- and almost died -- as the
> Dayton & Western, was picked up by the Little Miami Railroad circa=20=
> 1853, which was in turn leased to the Panhandle (PC&StL) in 1869.&n= bsp;
> Believe it was part of the Cincinnati Division until 1928, and then > became part of the Columbus (later Buckeye) Division. The route <= BR> > through Dayton specialized in east-west passenger (and mail) trains; > most freights passed through Urbana, bypassing ugly grades and short > sidings between Xenia and New Paris OH. Abandonment came by 1978.=
>
> This photo is a bit of a revelation, since I didn't locate/recognize > any Centipede pix several years ago when putting together a program on=20=
> Dayton Ohio. Further, I don't have any Centipede shots for the > Cincinnati article now in prep.
>
> I never met R.D., but I've bought some great prints he shot with K4s > in and out of Dayton (I grew up on the main between Dayton and Xenia).<= BR> >
>            =             &nbs= p;     Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
>            =             &nbs= p;     Planning a new Panhandle Route in HO
> (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
>            =             &nbs= p;     And Remembering PRR Lines West
>

Rick,
    Thanks. Your answer is most likely. Of course= , only one other person
replied. The photo says the train is westbound. If so the pole l= ine
is on the south, but you probably know that since you seem to know the
photo. Is the line to St. Louis single tracked? I would have tho= ught
it to be at least two tracks. Thanks again.
Jamie

A good question -- much of the Panhandle between Pittsburgh and Indianapolis= was double tracked. However, most freight traffic did not follow the=20= "passenger main" through Dayton, instead being routed through Urbana and Bra= dford on a double tracked segment of the Columbus-Chicago main, then across=20= a single track segment to rejoin the passenger main at New Paris, OH (which=20= is just west of West Manchester, almost on the Indiana state line). Th= is rerouting to the north of Dayton was a high-volume, low-grade, double tra= ck crossing of the Miami Valley without the awful grades in and out of Dayto= n (the valley deepens to a 400 foot depression at Dayton).

The Dayton routing carried some (later all) of the first class trains to St.= Louis. Because of its 1850's heritage, the line from Xenia through Da= yton to New Paris never got the kind of rebuild that benefited many other pa= rts of the Pennsy, and much of its primeval grades and curves remained, alon= g with infrequent and short passing sidings. As a veteran PRR engineer= says, "If you got out of Xenia with more than two K4s and 16 cars, you were= in trouble before you reached Dayton".

You can really see the difference in traffic (and investment) on the part of= the line from Columbus to Xenia. This line segment carried traffic fo= r both Dayton and Cincinnati. Granted, this is easier terrain (Ohio's=20= "Central Glacial Till", but the land still rises and falls, and yet the rail= road was straight, double tracked, and has only minor grades. There we= re even a few road overpasses/underpasses (not that common for southwest Ohi= o).

You could stand on the station platform at Xenia and see the difference -- t= he double track line from Columbus simply continued straight past the statio= n and became the "Little Miami" to Cincinnati. By comparison, the sing= le track Dayton line torqued off north on a fairly tight curve.

    = ;            &nb= sp;            Rick T= ipton - Louisville KY
            &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;   Planning a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
            &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;   And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_1d5.13e198d8.2cdf8eb0_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walter Prusick" Subject: [PRR] LifeLike C-Liners Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 21:00:26 -0500 Guys, Recently learned a lesson with regards to buying motive power. Now I am tossing this out for my enlightenment, are LifeLikes C-Liners "sleeping dogs" best left alone, or diamonds in the rough? Reason for this question, my daughter (age 12) wants an A-B-A set of FF-16's and Santa may cooperate. Course the roundhouse foreman will perform the "necessary surgery" and probable name change. Thanks for your input. Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] LifeLike C-Liners Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 21:34:17 -0500 On Nov 9, 2003, at 9:00 PM, Walter Prusick wrote: > Recently learned a lesson with regards to buying motive power. Now I am > tossing this out for my enlightenment, are LifeLikes C-Liners "sleeping > dogs" best left alone, or diamonds in the rough? Reason for this > question, > my daughter (age 12) wants an A-B-A set of FF-16's and Santa may > cooperate. > Course the roundhouse foreman will perform the "necessary surgery" and > probable name change. Thanks for your input. If you have a 12 year old daughter into trains, I would jump on it! I was thrilled when my daughter was into trains early on, but that interest faded at about age 7-8. Now we're in a holding pattern until boys start drawing her interest. She's 11 now. Won't be long! Hopefully C-liners will come down from the North Pole, perhaps followed by Erie-builts for good measure! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jeff Smith" Subject: [PRR] E7 or E8? Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 21:47:12 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C3A70B.08721940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable When the E8 locomotives arrived did the PRR continue to use the E7s on = the Blue Ribbon trains? In other words, where the E8s and E7s used = interchangeably or were the E8s preferred? Thanks, Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C3A70B.08721940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
When the E8 locomotives arrived did the = PRR=20 continue to use the E7s on the Blue Ribbon trains? In other words, = where=20 the E8s and E7s used interchangeably or were the E8s = preferred?

Thanks,

Jeff
------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C3A70B.08721940-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 22:33:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Aerotrain/Kemtron Lists, Need some help here. When Varney released the Aerotrain back in the mid 50's, Kemtron came out with an upgrade kit that included brass castings for the truck journels for the cars and Loco. I am in need of just 1 of these castings for the cars. I just want to barrow it for a little while so you will get it back.. I want to try to duplicate it in Resin. If you can help, just drop me an email.....Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walter Prusick" Subject: [PRR] LifeLike C-Liners 2 Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 23:01:25 -0500 Jerry, To late on those Erie Builts (FF-20's) as her younger brother wanted an A-B-A set last Christmas, and Santa came thru for him ;-) Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] BLI PRR T1 Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 22:42:07 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C3A712.B47C49C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Took a shot of the BLI T1 in action on the test loop at Milwaukee = Trainfest. RELAX guys, its a preproduction sample, don't worry about = the mismatch between tender and loco height. Also, the Deluxe Green = Locomotive Paint is a LOT darker in person than the photo indicates. = Unfortunately, the sample didn't have the T1 chip---not sure which loco = chip they borrowed, though I don't think it was the N&W A. Rough Estimate for the J1 delivery is Summer 2004 (any sooner and it = would be divorce city for me---with all the others in the near = pipeline). See: www.fleetofmodernism.com/blit1.jpg Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C3A712.B47C49C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Took a shot of the BLI T1 in action on = the test=20 loop at Milwaukee Trainfest. RELAX guys, its a preproduction = sample, don't=20 worry about the mismatch between tender and loco height. Also, the = Deluxe=20 Green Locomotive Paint is a LOT darker in person than the=20 photo indicates. Unfortunately, the sample didn't have the T1 = chip---not sure which loco chip they borrowed, though I don't think it = was the=20 N&W A.

Rough Estimate for the J1 delivery is = Summer 2004=20 (any sooner and it would be divorce city for me---with all the others in = the=20 near pipeline).

See: www.fleetofmodernism.c= om/blit1.jpg

Bob Zoeller
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C3A712.B47C49C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 23:59:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI PRR T1 Bob, 2 questions on what you saw on the T1. Did they articulate it or is there an option to run both ways? Also, what color is the lettering? Just can't tell with photos.....Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI PRR T1 Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 00:41:42 -0600 Sorry, Gary, can't answer either question with any certainty. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Mittner" > Bob, > > 2 questions on what you saw on the T1. Did they articulate it or is > there an option to run both ways? Also, what color is the lettering? > Just can't tell with photos.....Thanks, Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 01:51:46 EST Subject: [PRR] LifeLike C-Liners --part1_60.379d5800.2ce08f82_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walt writes... > Guys, > Recently learned a lesson with regard to buying motive power. Now I am > tossing this out for my enlightenment, are LifeLikes C-Liners "sleeping dogs" best > left alone, or diamonds in the rough? Reason for this question, my daughter > (age 12) wants an A-B-A set of FF-16's and Santa may cooperate. Course the > roundhouse foreman will perform the "necessary surgery" and probable name > change. Thanks for your input. > > Walt Prusick Walt and all, The LL P1K is an excellent example of a Canadian CF16-44. But it is not that far off from the US production FM CF16-44. There are some problems to over come to make it shine as a PRR model. On of the most difficult and a compromise you may likely accept as is the truck sideframes. They are distinctively different if you look close. Also the PRR blanked out one of the fans on the roof, this was a problem with the AHM/Rivarossi (including the very nice O Scale offering) but can be overcome. Walt, it just depends on your level of acceptable compromises and you willingness to overcome them. They are very well detailed and can make up into "brass-like" offerings. I have some for my PRR Fleet. Greg Martin --part1_60.379d5800.2ce08f82_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Walt writes...

Guys,
Recently learned a lesson with regard to buying motive power. Now I am tossi= ng this out for my enlightenment, are LifeLikes C-Liners "sleeping dogs" bes= t left alone, or diamonds in the rough? Reason for this question, my daughte= r (age 12) wants an A-B-A set of FF-16's and Santa may cooperate. Course the= roundhouse foreman will perform the "necessary surgery" and probable name c= hange. Thanks for your input.

Walt Prusick

Walt and all,

The LL P1K is an excellent example of a Canadian CF16-44. But it is no= t that far off from the US production FM CF16-44. There are some probl= ems to over come to make it shine as a PRR model. On of the most difficult a= nd a compromise you may likely accept as is the truck sideframes. They are d= istinctively different if you look close. Also the PRR blanked out one= of the fans on the roof, this was a problem with the AHM/Rivarossi (includi= ng the very nice O Scale offering) but can be overcome. Walt, it just=20= depends on your level of acceptable compromises and you willingness to overc= ome them. They are very well detailed and can make up into "brass-like" offe= rings. I have some for my PRR Fleet.

Greg Martin --part1_60.379d5800.2ce08f82_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI PRR T1 Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 06:37:37 -0500 On Nov 9, 2003, at 11:42 PM, Bob Zoeller wrote: > Also, the Deluxe Green Locomotive Paint is a=A0LOT darker in person = than=20 > the photo=A0indicates Guys, I haven't seen the T1 in person, but I can attest to Atlas photos=20= vs. the real thing. The web photos Atlas provided of the N scale H=20 16-44 looked real green. I was expecting a disappointment. But when=20 they arrived, I was thrilled to find they nailed the color perfectly=20 (IMO). It is truly possible that the flash of a camera brings out the pigment=20= that adds the "dash of green" to DGLE. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 08:00:05 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Reefer Madness Revisited! From: Jerry Britton More Q&A for Gregg Mahlkov & all... As an example, let's use train PG-5, from Enola to Pittsburgh. It consists of two blocks. Block 1 for the Pittsburgh Produce Terminal. Block 2 for the Pittsburgh Strip District. Bruce Smith calculated that the proportion of "home road" to "foreign road" reefers on the PRR in the 1950's would likely be around 50/50. He then calculated that the "home road" reefers would have a ratio of about 6:3:1 of FGE:WFE:BREX. I came up with the same ratio using the ORER. Today's question has to do with how a train was filled. Let's put Gregg in charge in Baltimore. As a block is being put together and foreign road reefers make it into the mix, would those foreign road cars appear randomly in the block, or would there be an attempt made to keep them together, so that after they are unloaded at Pittsburgh it would be easier to forward them "home"? Bottom line: If my block 1 of PG-5 contains 20 cars, 10 of them should be foreign, 6 FGE, 3 WFE, and 1 BREX, based on the averages. Would all 20 be randomly placed, or would the foreign cars "tend" be grouped by road name (SFRD, PFE, MDT, etc.)? FWIW, the first release of IM wood reefers is this month. It is the WFE in the 1951-2 scheme...small goat herald, REFRIGERATOR, yellow hardware. You can see a pic here: http://www.intermountain-railway.com/n/html/67702.html . BTW, in reading Bill Welch's research on FGE, I've learned that the FGE owned the National Car Company, which operated meat reefers. I previously was unaware of the financial relationship. National Car Company, in turn, operated reefers bearing the names of Kahn's, Oscar Mayer, Pepper Packing, Rath, etc. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] BLI PRR T1 Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 07:49:54 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C3A75F.3AAF3B00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" It is truly possible that the flash of a camera brings out the pigment that adds the "dash of green" to DGLE. Jerry: In a private email to Greg, I discussed this further. The lighting in = the new Wisconsin State Fairgrounds building is very bright. No flash required.The reflections you see are from the overhead lights. Under = bright lights on our club layout, even the Genesis units appear "blue-green". Also, my Nikon Coolpix 880's only demerit in a 36 page favorable review = was a skew of color to the red side, which also affects "black" in ways unpredictable. I did not color correct the T1 photo in Photo Shop. In person, I liked the color of the BLI locos and was surprised at how = green it turned out in the photo. But as I pointed out to Greg, my freight = steamers are painted 4 parts grimy black,one "Brunswick" green. Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C3A75F.3AAF3B00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----=20 Original Message -----
From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

It is truly possible that the flash of a camera = brings out=20 the pigment
that adds the "dash of green" to = DGLE.

Jerry:

In a=20 private email to Greg, I discussed this further. The lighting in=20 the
new Wisconsin State Fairgrounds building is very bright. No = flash
required.The reflections you see are from the overhead = lights. =20 Under bright
lights on our club layout, even the Genesis units appear = "blue-green".
Also, my Nikon Coolpix 880's only demerit in a 36 page=20 favorable review was
a skew of color to the red side, which also = affects=20 "black" in ways
unpredictable. I did not color correct the T1 = photo in=20 Photo Shop. In
person, I liked the color of the BLI locos and was = surprised=20 at how green it
turned out in the photo. But as I pointed out to = Greg, my=20 freight steamers
are painted 4 parts grimy black,one "Brunswick"=20 green.

Bob Zoeller
------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C3A75F.3AAF3B00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] E7 or E8? Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 08:03:40 -0600 From: "Bill Volkmer" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3A793.719D5F8A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 VGhlIEUtOHMgaGFkIHR3byBzdGVhbSBnZW5lcmF0b3JzIHdoZXJlIHRoZSBFLTdzIG9ubHkgaGFk IG9uZS4gIFNvIHRoZSBFLThzIHdlcmUgdGhlIHByZWZlcnJlZCBtb2RlIG9uIHNpbmdsZSBsb2Nv IHBhc3NlbmdlciB0cmFpbnMgaW4gY2FzZSB0aGUgaGlnaGx5IHVucmVsaWFibGUgRS03IGdlbmVy YXRvcnMgZmFpbGVkLg0KIA0KT3ZlciB0aW1lLCB0aGVyZSB3ZXJlIGEgemlsbGlvbiAgbW9kaWZp Y2F0aW9ucyBtYWRlIHRvIHRoZSBFLTcgZ2VuZXJhdG9ycyB0aGF0IHB1dCB0aGVtIG9uIGEgcGFy IHdpdGggdGhlIEUtOHMgYW5kIHdoZW4gbm9zZSBwbHVncyB3ZXJlIGFwcGxpZWQgdGhleSByYW4g aW4gdHJpcGxldHMgYWxsIG92ZXIgdGhlIHN5c3RlbS4gIA0KIA0KT25lIGdvb2QgZXhhbXBsZSBv ZiB3aGF0IEkgYW0gZGVzY3JpYmluZyBpcyB0aGUgY29udGludWFsIGFzc2lnbm1lbnQgb2Ygb25l IEUtOCB0byB0aGUgRXJpZSB0cmFpbiwgdXN1YWxseSB0aGUgNTc5NSBmb3Igc29tZSB1bmtub3du IHJlYXNvbi4NCiANCkJpbGwgVi4NCg0KCS0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tIA0KCUZy b206IEplZmYgU21pdGggW21haWx0bzpqc2FzbWl0aEBkZWphenpkLmNvbV0gDQoJU2VudDogU3Vu IDExLzkvMjAwMyA4OjQ3IFBNIA0KCVRvOiBQUlItVGFsayANCglDYzogDQoJU3ViamVjdDogW1BS Ul0gRTcgb3IgRTg/DQoJDQoJDQoJV2hlbiB0aGUgRTggbG9jb21vdGl2ZXMgYXJyaXZlZCBkaWQg dGhlIFBSUiBjb250aW51ZSB0byB1c2UgdGhlIEU3cyBvbiB0aGUgQmx1ZSBSaWJib24gdHJhaW5z PyAgSW4gb3RoZXIgd29yZHMsIHdoZXJlIHRoZSBFOHMgYW5kIEU3cyB1c2VkIGludGVyY2hhbmdl YWJseSBvciB3ZXJlIHRoZSBFOHMgcHJlZmVycmVkPw0KCSANCgkgDQoJVGhhbmtzLA0KCSANCgkg DQoJSmVmZg0KDQo= ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3A793.719D5F8A Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PE1FVEEgSFRUUC1FUVVJVj0iQ29udGVudC1UeXBlIiBDT05URU5UPSJ0ZXh0L2h0bWw7IGNoYXJz ZXQ9dXRmLTgiPgo8IURPQ1RZUEUgSFRNTCBQVUJMSUMgIi0vL1czQy8vRFREIEhUTUwgNC4wIFRy YW5zaXRpb25hbC8vRU4iPgo8SFRNTD48SEVBRD4KCjxNRVRBIGNvbnRlbnQ9Ik1TSFRNTCA2LjAw LjI4MDAuMTI2NCIgbmFtZT1HRU5FUkFUT1I+CjxTVFlMRT48L1NUWUxFPgo8L0hFQUQ+CjxCT0RZ IGJnQ29sb3I9I2ZmZmZmZiBkaXI9bHRyPgo8RElWPlRoZSBFLThzIGhhZCB0d28gc3RlYW0gZ2Vu ZXJhdG9ycyB3aGVyZSB0aGUgRS03cyBvbmx5IGhhZCBvbmUuJm5ic3A7IFNvIHRoZSAKRS04cyB3 ZXJlIHRoZSBwcmVmZXJyZWQgbW9kZSBvbiBzaW5nbGUgbG9jbyBwYXNzZW5nZXIgdHJhaW5zIGlu IGNhc2UgdGhlIGhpZ2hseSAKdW5yZWxpYWJsZSBFLTcgZ2VuZXJhdG9ycyBmYWlsZWQuPC9ESVY+ CjxESVY+Jm5ic3A7PC9ESVY+CjxESVY+T3ZlciB0aW1lLCB0aGVyZSB3ZXJlIGEgemlsbGlvbiZu YnNwOyBtb2RpZmljYXRpb25zIG1hZGUgdG8gdGhlIEUtNyAKZ2VuZXJhdG9ycyB0aGF0IHB1dCB0 aGVtIG9uIGEgcGFyIHdpdGggdGhlIEUtOHMgYW5kIHdoZW4gbm9zZSBwbHVncyB3ZXJlIGFwcGxp ZWQgCnRoZXkgcmFuIGluIHRyaXBsZXRzIGFsbCBvdmVyIHRoZSBzeXN0ZW0uJm5ic3A7IDwvRElW Pgo8RElWPiZuYnNwOzwvRElWPgo8RElWPk9uZSBnb29kIGV4YW1wbGUgb2Ygd2hhdCBJIGFtIGRl c2NyaWJpbmcgaXMgdGhlIGNvbnRpbnVhbCBhc3NpZ25tZW50IG9mIG9uZSAKRS04IHRvIHRoZSBF cmllIHRyYWluLCB1c3VhbGx5IHRoZSA1Nzk1IGZvciBzb21lIHVua25vd24gcmVhc29uLjwvRElW Pgo8RElWPiZuYnNwOzwvRElWPgo8RElWPkJpbGwgVi48L0RJVj4KPEJMT0NLUVVPVEUgZGlyPWx0 ciBzdHlsZT0iTUFSR0lOLVJJR0hUOiAwcHgiPgogIDxESVY+PEZPTlQgc2l6ZT0yPi0tLS0tT3Jp Z2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tIDxCUj48Qj5Gcm9tOjwvQj4gSmVmZiBTbWl0aCAKICBbbWFpbHRv OmpzYXNtaXRoQGRlamF6emQuY29tXSA8QlI+PEI+U2VudDo8L0I+IFN1biAxMS85LzIwMDMgODo0 NyBQTSAKICA8QlI+PEI+VG86PC9CPiBQUlItVGFsayA8QlI+PEI+Q2M6PC9CPiA8QlI+PEI+U3Vi amVjdDo8L0I+IFtQUlJdIEU3IG9yIAogIEU4PzxCUj48QlI+PC9GT05UPjwvRElWPgogIDxESVY+ PEZPTlQgZmFjZT1BcmlhbCBzaXplPTI+V2hlbiB0aGUgRTggbG9jb21vdGl2ZXMgYXJyaXZlZCBk aWQgdGhlIFBSUiAKICBjb250aW51ZSB0byB1c2UgdGhlIEU3cyBvbiB0aGUgQmx1ZSBSaWJib24g dHJhaW5zPyZuYnNwOyBJbiBvdGhlciB3b3Jkcywgd2hlcmUgCiAgdGhlIEU4cyBhbmQgRTdzIHVz ZWQgaW50ZXJjaGFuZ2VhYmx5IG9yIHdlcmUgdGhlIEU4cyBwcmVmZXJyZWQ/PC9GT05UPjwvRElW PgogIDxESVY+PEZPTlQgZmFjZT1BcmlhbCBzaXplPTI+PC9GT05UPiZuYnNwOzwvRElWPgogIDxE SVY+PEZPTlQgZmFjZT1BcmlhbCBzaXplPTI+PC9GT05UPiZuYnNwOzwvRElWPgogIDxESVY+PEZP TlQgZmFjZT1BcmlhbCBzaXplPTI+VGhhbmtzLDwvRk9OVD48L0RJVj4KICA8RElWPjxGT05UIGZh Y2U9QXJpYWwgc2l6ZT0yPjwvRk9OVD4mbmJzcDs8L0RJVj4KICA8RElWPjxGT05UIGZhY2U9QXJp YWwgc2l6ZT0yPjwvRk9OVD4mbmJzcDs8L0RJVj4KICA8RElWPjxGT05UIGZhY2U9QXJpYWwgc2l6 ZT0yPkplZmY8L0ZPTlQ+PC9ESVY+PC9CTE9DS1FVT1RFPjwvQk9EWT48L0hUTUw+ ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3A793.719D5F8A-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 08:21:12 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer Madness Revisited! From: Bruce Smith --Apple-Mail-4--27441087 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Monday, November 10, 2003, at 07:00 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > More Q&A for Gregg Mahlkov & all... > > As an example, let's use train PG-5, from Enola to Pittsburgh. It > consists of two blocks. Block 1 for the Pittsburgh Produce Terminal. > Block 2 for the Pittsburgh Strip District. > > Bruce Smith calculated that the proportion of "home road" to "foreign > road" reefers on the PRR in the 1950's would likely be around 50/50. Just keep in mind that this is a SWAG....in fact, the ratio of "home" to foreign could be substantially more, or less... > > Today's question has to do with how a train was filled. Let's put > Gregg in charge in Baltimore. As a block is being put together and > foreign road reefers make it into the mix, would those foreign road > cars appear randomly in the block, or would there be an attempt made > to keep them together, so that after they are unloaded at Pittsburgh > it would be easier to forward them "home"? As I think I've noted before, the overall ratio may be 50:50, but the ratio on individual trains will vary widely depending on lading/origin. Thus, for these reefers which are coming WEST to Pittsburgh loaded, they are much more likely to be "home" cars. PFE agents would be forwarding their reefers back to the "left coast" as quickly as possible and usually NOT loading them for the trip, as they want them to pass through a PFE facility for cleaning and any repairs prior to reloading. You might get the occasional PFE or SFRD reefer from Baltimore or forwarded from Florida through Pot yard with bananas or other imported fruit, but that's about it. PFE reefers were loaded and shipped WEST, but usually with non-perishables like newspapers and magazines, and usually for destinations close to California, and most commonly around the Christmas holidays. These cars would likely be in blocks in a hot merchandise train... EAST bound reefers blocks would reflect the mix of reefers coming in from the west (PFE, SFRD, WFEX, BREX FGEX) and the cars would be blocked for destination, thus each block would be a mix of car types. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-4--27441087 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII On Monday, November 10, 2003, at 07:00 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: More Q&A for Gregg Mahlkov & all... As an example, let's use train PG-5, from Enola to Pittsburgh. It consists of two blocks. Block 1 for the Pittsburgh Produce Terminal. Block 2 for the Pittsburgh Strip District. Bruce Smith calculated that the proportion of "home road" to "foreign road" reefers on the PRR in the 1950's would likely be around 50/50. Just keep in mind that this is a SWAG....in fact, the ratio of "home" to foreign could be substantially more, or less... Today's question has to do with how a train was filled. Let's put Gregg in charge in Baltimore. As a block is being put together and foreign road reefers make it into the mix, would those foreign road cars appear randomly in the block, or would there be an attempt made to keep them together, so that after they are unloaded at Pittsburgh it would be easier to forward them "home"? As I think I've noted before, the overall ratio may be 50:50, but the ratio on individual trains will vary widely depending on lading/origin. Thus, for these reefers which are coming WEST to Pittsburgh loaded, they are much more likely to be "home" cars. PFE agents would be forwarding their reefers back to the "left coast" as quickly as possible and usually NOT loading them for the trip, as they want them to pass through a PFE facility for cleaning and any repairs prior to reloading. You might get the occasional PFE or SFRD reefer from Baltimore or forwarded from Florida through Pot yard with bananas or other imported fruit, but that's about it. PFE reefers were loaded and shipped WEST, but usually with non-perishables like newspapers and magazines, and usually for destinations close to California, and most commonly around the Christmas holidays. These cars would likely be in blocks in a hot merchandise train... EAST bound reefers blocks would reflect the mix of reefers coming in from the west (PFE, SFRD, WFEX, BREX FGEX) and the cars would be blocked for destination, thus each block would be a mix of car types. Happy Rails Bruce HelveticaBruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-4--27441087-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer Madness Revisited! Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 09:59:02 -0500 Jerry, The cars would stay together as they were received from connections. In other words, if PRR received six cars in a block from the RF&P ex. Florida all bound for the PPT in Pittsburgh, they would stay coupled until they reached the PPT unless one went bad order. Loads and empties bear no relationship whatsoever. How do you know in what order cars would be released? The oranges might sell out overnight but the grapefruit might not all be sold for 72 hours! Remember, the brokers at the PPT's had to turn around and sell the perishables to small stores and restaurants that couldn't take carload lots. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 8:00 AM Subject: [PRR] Reefer Madness Revisited! > More Q&A for Gregg Mahlkov & all... > > As an example, let's use train PG-5, from Enola to Pittsburgh. It > consists of two blocks. Block 1 for the Pittsburgh Produce Terminal. > Block 2 for the Pittsburgh Strip District. > > Bruce Smith calculated that the proportion of "home road" to "foreign > road" reefers on the PRR in the 1950's would likely be around 50/50. He > then calculated that the "home road" reefers would have a ratio of > about 6:3:1 of FGE:WFE:BREX. I came up with the same ratio using the > ORER. > > Today's question has to do with how a train was filled. Let's put Gregg > in charge in Baltimore. As a block is being put together and foreign > road reefers make it into the mix, would those foreign road cars appear > randomly in the block, or would there be an attempt made to keep them > together, so that after they are unloaded at Pittsburgh it would be > easier to forward them "home"? > > Bottom line: If my block 1 of PG-5 contains 20 cars, 10 of them should > be foreign, 6 FGE, 3 WFE, and 1 BREX, based on the averages. Would all > 20 be randomly placed, or would the foreign cars "tend" be grouped by > road name (SFRD, PFE, MDT, etc.)? > > FWIW, the first release of IM wood reefers is this month. It is the WFE > in the 1951-2 scheme...small goat herald, REFRIGERATOR, yellow > hardware. You can see a pic here: > http://www.intermountain-railway.com/n/html/67702.html . > > BTW, in reading Bill Welch's research on FGE, I've learned that the FGE > owned the National Car Company, which operated meat reefers. I > previously was unaware of the financial relationship. National Car > Company, in turn, operated reefers bearing the names of Kahn's, Oscar > Mayer, Pepper Packing, Rath, etc. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Jim McDaniel Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 17:47:21 +0000 Jim I can't contact you. Your server thinks I am a spammer and won't let me through. N6b headed your way. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: [PRR] The Keystone Modeler #4 Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 15:23:49 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3A7E1.B1E5E660 Content-Type: text/plain Hi all; Once again, I am asking you all what you think of the latest issue of TKM. You can all get The Keystone Modeler now via the website (www.prrths.com; under "National...") and Al has done a lot of work to make it available by different means, including, later this month, as a fast-acting pdf document. Just the thing to make your day brighter! Those that don't get computer-driven mail can go to the library and get someone to help pull it up for them. We listen to all your suggestions, and have acted on the majority. Of course, we are limited on the types of articles we can do based on actual submissions by authors, but we have an interesting line-up. And we can always use more articles from our readership! In the vein of keeping modeling projects approachable, Jim Hunter's fine article on the Bowser GS was just what is needed for those cars. Al and Lin's article on headlights was very informative, and I appreciated understanding the "why" and "what" related to the PRR rules. So, what can we do to make you happy? What can we do to make it better? Are we going into enough detail? Too much? Are the techniques hard to follow? Are we forgetting important points? Let us know how we did. Your feedback is VERY important to us. Elden Gatwood PRRT&HS Modeling Committee ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3A7E1.B1E5E660 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Keystone Modeler #4
Hi all;
Once again, I am asking you all what you think of = the latest issue of TKM. You can all get The Keystone Modeler now = via the website (www.prrths.com; under "National...") and Al = has done a lot of work to make it available by different means, = including, later this month, as a fast-acting pdf document. Just = the thing to make your day brighter! Those that don't get = computer-driven mail can go to the library and get someone to help pull = it up for them.

We listen to all your suggestions, and have acted on = the majority. Of course, we are limited on the types of articles = we can do based on actual submissions by authors, but we have an = interesting line-up. And we can always use more articles from our = readership!

In the vein of keeping modeling projects = approachable, Jim Hunter's fine article on the Bowser GS was just what = is needed for those cars.

Al and Lin's article on headlights was very = informative, and I appreciated understanding the "why" and = "what" related to the PRR rules.

So, what can we do to make you happy? What can = we do to make it better? Are we going into enough detail? = Too much? Are the techniques hard to follow? Are we = forgetting important points?

Let us know how we did. Your feedback is VERY = important to us.

Elden Gatwood
PRRT&HS Modeling Committee
------_=_NextPart_001_01C3A7E1.B1E5E660-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PGrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] The Keystone Modeler #4 Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 23:50:44 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C3A7E5.750D9680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Keystone Modeler #4Hi Elden, >From the very quick scan (its ten to midnight here) through it looks = pretty good! FYI the BLI GG1 was also reviewed in Continental Modeller in the = November 2003 issue. Patrick Grace ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ELDEN GATWOOD=20 To: PRR-Modeling@egroups.com ; prr-talk@dsop.com ; = 'PRRPro@yahoogroups.com'=20 Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 11:23 PM Subject: [PRR] The Keystone Modeler #4 Hi all;=20 Once again, I am asking you all what you think of the latest issue of = TKM. You can all get The Keystone Modeler now via the website = (www.prrths.com; under "National...") and Al has done a lot of work to = make it available by different means, including, later this month, as a = fast-acting pdf document. Just the thing to make your day brighter! = Those that don't get computer-driven mail can go to the library and get = someone to help pull it up for them. We listen to all your suggestions, and have acted on the majority. Of = course, we are limited on the types of articles we can do based on = actual submissions by authors, but we have an interesting line-up. And = we can always use more articles from our readership! In the vein of keeping modeling projects approachable, Jim Hunter's = fine article on the Bowser GS was just what is needed for those cars. Al and Lin's article on headlights was very informative, and I = appreciated understanding the "why" and "what" related to the PRR rules. So, what can we do to make you happy? What can we do to make it = better? Are we going into enough detail? Too much? Are the techniques = hard to follow? Are we forgetting important points? Let us know how we did. Your feedback is VERY important to us.=20 Elden Gatwood=20 PRRT&HS Modeling Committee=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C3A7E5.750D9680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Keystone Modeler #4
Hi Elden,

From the very quick scan (its ten to = midnight here)=20 through it looks pretty good!

FYI the BLI GG1 was also reviewed in = Continental=20 Modeller in the November 2003 issue.

Patrick Grace

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 ELDEN=20 GATWOOD
To: PRR-Modeling@egroups.com = ; prr-talk@dsop.com=20 ; 'PRRPro@yahoogroups.com' =

Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 = 11:23=20 PM

Subject: [PRR] The Keystone = Modeler=20 #4

Hi all;
Once again, I am = asking you=20 all what you think of the latest issue of TKM. You can all get = The=20 Keystone Modeler now via the website (www.prrths.com; under = "National...") and Al=20 has done a lot of work to make it available by different means, = including,=20 later this month, as a fast-acting pdf document. Just the thing = to make=20 your day brighter! Those that don't get computer-driven mail can = go to=20 the library and get someone to help pull it up for them.

We listen to all your suggestions, and have acted on = the=20 majority. Of course, we are limited on the types of articles we = can do=20 based on actual submissions by authors, but we have an interesting=20 line-up. And we can always use more articles from our=20 readership!

In the vein of keeping modeling projects = approachable, Jim=20 Hunter's fine article on the Bowser GS was just what is needed for = those=20 cars.

Al and Lin's article on headlights was very = informative, and I=20 appreciated understanding the "why" and "what" related to the PRR=20 rules.

So, what can we do to make you happy? What can = we do to=20 make it better? Are we going into enough detail? Too = much? =20 Are the techniques hard to follow? Are we forgetting important=20 points?

Let us know how we did. Your feedback is VERY = important=20 to us.

Elden Gatwood
PRRT&HS = Modeling=20 Committee
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C3A7E5.750D9680-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred in Vt." Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer Madness Revisited! Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 22:19:03 -0500 Jerry-- Does this now constitute an allocation for the rest of the "menu" for the reefer block question? If you don't end up with a poultry car by the holiday, I'll be very surprised!Todays question>>did any of the now mentioned reefers make thier way to the Pullman Co. storehouses in major terminal locations??? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 8:00 AM Subject: [PRR] Reefer Madness Revisited! > More Q&A for Gregg Mahlkov & all... > > As an example, let's use train PG-5, from Enola to Pittsburgh. It > consists of two blocks. Block 1 for the Pittsburgh Produce Terminal. > Block 2 for the Pittsburgh Strip District. > > Bruce Smith calculated that the proportion of "home road" to "foreign > road" reefers on the PRR in the 1950's would likely be around 50/50. He > then calculated that the "home road" reefers would have a ratio of > about 6:3:1 of FGE:WFE:BREX. I came up with the same ratio using the > ORER. > > Today's question has to do with how a train was filled. Let's put Gregg > in charge in Baltimore. As a block is being put together and foreign > road reefers make it into the mix, would those foreign road cars appear > randomly in the block, or would there be an attempt made to keep them > together, so that after they are unloaded at Pittsburgh it would be > easier to forward them "home"? > > Bottom line: If my block 1 of PG-5 contains 20 cars, 10 of them should > be foreign, 6 FGE, 3 WFE, and 1 BREX, based on the averages. Would all > 20 be randomly placed, or would the foreign cars "tend" be grouped by > road name (SFRD, PFE, MDT, etc.)? > > FWIW, the first release of IM wood reefers is this month. It is the WFE > in the 1951-2 scheme...small goat herald, REFRIGERATOR, yellow > hardware. You can see a pic here: > http://www.intermountain-railway.com/n/html/67702.html . > > BTW, in reading Bill Welch's research on FGE, I've learned that the FGE > owned the National Car Company, which operated meat reefers. I > previously was unaware of the financial relationship. National Car > Company, in turn, operated reefers bearing the names of Kahn's, Oscar > Mayer, Pepper Packing, Rath, etc. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer Madness Revisited! Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 23:02:18 -0600 Just tell me where my Westerfield ACL Dispatch ventilated boxcar goes when completed. On our club layout I am routing it to the produce warehouse. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred in Vt." > Jerry-- > Does this now constitute an allocation for the rest of the "menu" > for the reefer block question? If you don't end up with a poultry car by the > holiday, I'll be very surprised!. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 23:44:18 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] MDC RS-3 motor mount issues Hello lists, I'm building an MDC Alco RS-3, and I'm running into an issue I've never seen before. The motor mounts aren't especially rigid, and they let the motor/flywheel assembly flex just enough to contact the frame at random (and aggravating) intervals. I considered grinding down some of the frame around the flywheels for clearance, but the problem is mostly vertical, not side to side. I'm currently considering throwing out the motor mounts and mounting the motor with styrene and silicone caulk for a more fixed approach. I've already replaced the lower motor clip (with it's springy metal protrusions) with a plain one that has wire soldered for electrical connectivity.I have a couple of possible solutions, but has anyone run into this before, and what did you do? Thanks in advance! Doug __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] E7 or E8? Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 09:24:05 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C3A835.8DA21A90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The triplets came in (in 1959) after they pulled the Red Arrow off east of Pittsburgh and combined the Detroit coaches and sleepers with The Spirit of St. Louis. They did the same thing with the Cincinnati trains and some others in the great consolidation of Winter 1958-59 which totally decimated the great red (a.k.a. Blue Ribbon) fleet. Trains became ungodly long with lots of head end cars on each train. Only the Broadway and General ran without X-29s etc. They each had an RPO car for a few more years. Also with all the steam leaks on the head end cars it took 5 or 6 steam generators to push enough of the stuff back to the coaches and sleepers. -----Original Message----- From: CENTGA@aol.com [mailto:CENTGA@aol.com] Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 9:31 PM To: Bill Volkmer Subject: Re: [PRR] E7 or E8? In a message dated 11/10/03 9:21:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com writes: Over time, there were a zillion modifications made to the E-7 generators that put them on a par with the E-8s and when nose plugs were applied they ran in triplets all over the system. Bill, why the need to run them in triplets? Were they getting unreliable in the later years or did the consist require that much power? Todd Horton ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C3A835.8DA21A90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
The=20 triplets came in (in 1959) after they pulled the Red Arrow off east of=20 Pittsburgh and combined the Detroit coaches and sleepers with The Spirit = of St.=20 Louis. They did the same thing with the Cincinnati trains = and some=20 others in the great consolidation of Winter 1958-59 which totally = decimated the=20 great red (a.k.a. Blue Ribbon) fleet. Trains became ungodly long = with lots=20 of head end cars on each train. Only the Broadway and General ran = without=20 X-29s etc. They each had an RPO car for a few more = years.

Also=20 with all the steam leaks on the head end cars it took 5 or 6 steam = generators to=20 push enough of the stuff back to the coaches and = sleepers.

-----Original Message-----
From: = CENTGA@aol.com=20 [mailto:CENTGA@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 = 9:31=20 PM
To: Bill Volkmer
Subject: Re: [PRR] E7 or=20 E8?

In = a message=20 dated 11/10/03 9:21:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, = bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com=20 writes:

Over time, there were a zillion modifications made = to the=20 E-7 generators that put them on a par with the E-8s and when nose = plugs were=20 applied they ran in triplets all over the system. =20

Bill, why the need to run them in triplets? = Were they=20 getting unreliable in the later years or did the consist require that = much=20 power? Todd Horton

------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C3A835.8DA21A90-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer Madness Revisited! Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 10:08:18 -0500 Bob, Oh, what I'd give for one or more of those in N scale! Yes, they would be going to the produce warehouse. Around here (the Florida panhandle) they were called 'watermelon cars". There used to be a lot of melon loadings on the L&N between Chattahoochee and Pensacola in season. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Zoeller" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 12:02 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer Madness Revisited! > Just tell me where my Westerfield ACL Dispatch ventilated boxcar goes when > completed. On our club layout I am routing it to the produce warehouse. > > Bob Zoeller > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Fred in Vt." > > > Jerry-- > > Does this now constitute an allocation for the rest of the "menu" > > for the reefer block question? If you don't end up with a poultry car by > the > > holiday, I'll be very surprised!. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: FW: [PRR] Elmira Branch Rail Size Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 09:47:27 -0600 Can anyone on the list tell me what size rail was used on the Elmira Branch ca.1956 Williamsport to Elmira? Thanks. Mike Morrow, I checked last night on a track chart dated 1-1-51 The EB between Williamsport and Southport is 130 pound rail. Except for the following. These are all approximent mile post numbers. mp 53.5 - 55.8 152 mp 55.8 - 55.9 140 mp 74.0 - Erie trackage 100 (I know this sounds like it is too light. It brings up the question, did the passenger trains go through the yard rather than using the track that skirted the yard on the east side. I think they did as the employee station was in the yard IIRC.) I hope this is what you were looking for. Pete Reinhold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer Madness Revisited! Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:50:07 +0000 Bob Zoeller wrote: Just tell me where my Westerfield ACL Dispatch ventilated boxcar goes when completed. On our club layout I am routing it to the produce warehouse. That should be right on the money. Just set up the doors on the car in the "ventilated" mode. (On the other hand, you could set up the doors the other way and run it as a regular boxcar, but why bother?) Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 10:14:57 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer Madness Revisited! From: Bruce Smith --Apple-Mail-8-65784744 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 09:50 AM, b.hom@att.net wrote: > Bob Zoeller wrote: > Just tell me where my Westerfield ACL Dispatch ventilated boxcar goes > when > completed. On our club layout I am routing it to the produce > warehouse. > > That should be right on the money. Just set up the doors on the car in > the "ventilated" mode. (On the other hand, you could set up the doors > the > other way and run it as a regular boxcar, but why bother?) Or, you could do an Al Westerfield trick and set one side up as ventilated and the other as a boxcar and have whichever side facing the viewer you wanted ! At least, this would work on my planned layout, where I will need only paint one side of every car, since only one side will ever be seen Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-8-65784744 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 09:50 AM, b.hom@att.net wrote: Bob Zoeller wrote: Just tell me where my Westerfield ACL Dispatch ventilated boxcar goes when completed. On our club layout I am routing it to the produce warehouse. That should be right on the money. Just set up the doors on the car in the "ventilated" mode. (On the other hand, you could set up the doors the other way and run it as a regular boxcar, but why bother?) Or, you could do an Al Westerfield trick and set one side up as ventilated and the other as a boxcar and have whichever side facing the viewer you wanted <! At least, this would work on my planned layout, where I will need only paint one side of every car, since only one side will ever be seen < Happy Rails Bruce HelveticaBruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-8-65784744-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer Madness Revisited! Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:38:31 +0000 Gregg Malkhov wrote: Oh, what I'd give for one or more of those in N scale! Yes, they would be going to the produce warehouse. Around here (the Florida panhandle) they were called 'watermelon cars". There used to be a lot of melon loadings on the L&N between Chattahoochee and Pensacola in season. Can't you do one using the MDC 36 ft boxcar as a base? You'd need to do a new roof and underframe as well as building a ventilated door and end ventilators (probably the hardest part to model in N scale.) Microscale 60- 940 looks like it'll work for post-1956 cars (can't tell if they have the right dimensional data for a 36 ft boxcar, but it does have the correct lettering style for the reporting marks and herald as well as side sill striping. And yes, these cars lasted a very long time - 1960!) Not sure if C-D-S makes a set for these cars - I'm at work and don't have their list with me. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer Madness Revisited! Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 11:53:25 -0500 Ben, I have scratchbuiilt numerous N scale boxcars. What has me stumped on this one is the door. The bars alternate on each side of the screen. Art Griffin has the right decals as well. I think photoetching might be the only way to get a door. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Gregg Mahlkov" Cc: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 11:38 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer Madness Revisited! > Gregg Malkhov wrote: > Oh, what I'd give for one or more of those in N scale! Yes, they would be > going to the produce warehouse. Around here (the Florida panhandle) they > were called 'watermelon cars". There used to be a lot of melon loadings on > the L&N between Chattahoochee and Pensacola in season. > > Can't you do one using the MDC 36 ft boxcar as a base? You'd need to do a > new roof and underframe as well as building a ventilated door and end > ventilators (probably the hardest part to model in N scale.) Microscale 60- > 940 looks like it'll work for post-1956 cars (can't tell if they have the > right dimensional data for a 36 ft boxcar, but it does have the correct > lettering style for the reporting marks and herald as well as side sill > striping. And yes, these cars lasted a very long time - 1960!) Not sure if > C-D-S makes a set for these cars - I'm at work and don't have their list with > me. > > > Ben Hom > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer Madness Revisited! Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 17:09:44 +0000 Gregg Mahlkov wrote: What has me stumped on this one is the door. The bars alternate on each side of the screen. Art Griffin has the right decals as well. I think photoetching might be the only way to get a door. I agree - it's too bad that the MDC car doesn't have a more usable roof and underframe. Otherwise, it would have made it easier to convince someone like Plano that it's a commercially viable aftermarket part. Maybe photoetching might be the way to go for the Wine ventilators in the ends too. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 12:33:22 -0500 From: Zak Subject: Re: [PRR] E7 or E8? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_xzQUrEtdjQoR3eg2v6Bj9g) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT MessageQuestion on steam generators: Did the PRR rely solely on steam generators of their A and B units, or did they buy and/or rebuild separate steam generator cars? The reason I ask is that I've seen pictures of other RRs which did rebuild some ex-freight cars to accomplish the task, but have never seen a picture of any PRR car such as that. Thanks in advance. Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Volkmer To: CENTGA@aol.com Cc: talk prr Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 9:24 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] E7 or E8? The triplets came in (in 1959) after they pulled the Red Arrow off east of Pittsburgh and combined the Detroit coaches and sleepers with The Spirit of St. Louis. They did the same thing with the Cincinnati trains and some others in the great consolidation of Winter 1958-59 which totally decimated the great red (a.k.a. Blue Ribbon) fleet. Trains became ungodly long with lots of head end cars on each train. Only the Broadway and General ran without X-29s etc. They each had an RPO car for a few more years. Also with all the steam leaks on the head end cars it took 5 or 6 steam generators to push enough of the stuff back to the coaches and sleepers. --Boundary_(ID_xzQUrEtdjQoR3eg2v6Bj9g) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message

Question on steam generators: Did the PRR rely solely on steam generators of their A and B units, or did they buy and/or rebuild separate steam generator cars?

The reason I ask is that I've seen pictures of other RRs which did rebuild some ex-freight cars to accomplish the task, but have never seen a picture of any PRR car such as that.

Thanks in advance.

Zak

"Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail."

----- Original Message -----

From: Bill Volkmer

To: CENTGA@aol.com

Cc: talk prr

Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 9:24 AM

Subject: RE: [PRR] E7 or E8?

The triplets came in (in 1959) after they pulled the Red Arrow off east of Pittsburgh and combined the Detroit coaches and sleepers with The Spirit of St. Louis. They did the same thing with the Cincinnati trains and some others in the great consolidation of Winter 1958-59 which totally decimated the great red (a.k.a. Blue Ribbon) fleet. Trains became ungodly long with lots of head end cars on each train. Only the Broadway and General ran without X-29s etc. They each had an RPO car for a few more years.

Also with all the steam leaks on the head end cars it took 5 or 6 steam generators to push enough of the stuff back to the coaches and sleepers.

--Boundary_(ID_xzQUrEtdjQoR3eg2v6Bj9g)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] E7 or E8? Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:11:54 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0086_01C3A855.613BC760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The PRR never owned any steam generator cars. The CN and others relied heavily on them. As a matter of fact, one of the great blunders of all time in railroading (IMO) was when Amtrak did not take over the existing railroad steam generator cars (1971) and instead bought the SDP-40fs with steam generators knowing full well that they would become obsolete in a short while. There were enough steam generator cars in existence to serve all the Amtrak trains that needed them. No further comments on Amtrak blunders forthcoming. WDV -----Original Message----- From: Zak [mailto:casimer.zakrzewski@us.army.mil] Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 12:33 PM To: Bill Volkmer Cc: talk prr Subject: Re: [PRR] E7 or E8? Question on steam generators: Did the PRR rely solely on steam generators of their A and B units, or did they buy and/or rebuild separate steam generator cars? The reason I ask is that I've seen pictures of other RRs which did rebuild some ex-freight cars to accomplish the task, but have never seen a picture of any PRR car such as that. Thanks in advance. Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Volkmer To: CENTGA@aol.com Cc: talk prr Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 9:24 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] E7 or E8? The triplets came in (in 1959) after they pulled the Red Arrow off east of Pittsburgh and combined the Detroit coaches and sleepers with The Spirit of St. Louis. They did the same thing with the Cincinnati trains and some others in the great consolidation of Winter 1958-59 which totally decimated the great red (a.k.a. Blue Ribbon) fleet. Trains became ungodly long with lots of head end cars on each train. Only the Broadway and General ran without X-29s etc. They each had an RPO car for a few more years. Also with all the steam leaks on the head end cars it took 5 or 6 steam generators to push enough of the stuff back to the coaches and sleepers. ------=_NextPart_000_0086_01C3A855.613BC760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

The=20 PRR never owned any steam generator cars. The CN and others relied = heavily=20 on them. As a matter of fact, one of the great blunders of all = time in=20 railroading (IMO) was when Amtrak did not take over the existing = railroad steam=20 generator cars (1971) and instead bought the SDP-40fs with steam = generators=20 knowing full well that they would become obsolete in a short = while. There=20 were enough steam generator cars in existence to serve all the Amtrak = trains=20 that needed them.

No=20 further comments on Amtrak blunders forthcoming.

WDV

-----Original Message-----
From: Zak=20 [mailto:casimer.zakrzewski@us.army.mil]
Sent: Tuesday, = November 11,=20 2003 12:33 PM
To: Bill Volkmer
Cc: talk=20 prr
Subject: Re: [PRR] E7 or E8?

Question on steam generators: Did the = PRR rely=20 solely on steam generators of their A and B units, or did they buy = and/or=20 rebuild separate steam generator cars?

The reason I ask is that I've seen pictures of = other RRs=20 which did rebuild some ex-freight cars to accomplish the task, but = have never=20 seen a picture of any PRR car such as that.

Thanks in advance.

Zak

"Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing = mail."

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bill Volkmer
To: CENTGA@aol.com

Cc: talk prr

Sent: Tuesday, November 11, = 2003 9:24=20 AM

Subject: RE: [PRR] E7 or = E8?

The triplets came in (in 1959) after they pulled the Red = Arrow off=20 east of Pittsburgh and combined the Detroit coaches and sleepers = with The=20 Spirit of St. Louis. They did the same thing with the = Cincinnati=20 trains and some others in the great consolidation of Winter 1958-59 = which=20 totally decimated the great red (a.k.a. Blue Ribbon) fleet. = Trains=20 became ungodly long with lots of head end cars on each train. = Only the=20 Broadway and General ran without X-29s etc. They each had an RPO car = for a=20 few more years.

Also with all the steam leaks on the head end cars it took = 5 or 6=20 steam generators to push enough of the stuff back to the coaches and = = sleepers.

------=_NextPart_000_0086_01C3A855.613BC760-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:21:45 -0500 From: Zak Subject: Re: [PRR] E7 or E8? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_FM/Zd7RGleaB6B947ODKiQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT MessageBill, Great. Thanks for that info! I didn't think the PRR had any, but . . . as the legend goes, "one of everything". ;-) Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Volkmer To: 'Zak' Cc: 'talk prr' Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 1:11 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] E7 or E8? The PRR never owned any steam generator cars. The CN and others relied heavily on them. As a matter of fact, one of the great blunders of all time in railroading (IMO) was when Amtrak did not take over the existing railroad steam generator cars (1971) and instead bought the SDP-40fs with steam generators knowing full well that they would become obsolete in a short while. There were enough steam generator cars in existence to serve all the Amtrak trains that needed them. No further comments on Amtrak blunders forthcoming. WDV --Boundary_(ID_FM/Zd7RGleaB6B947ODKiQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message

Bill,

Great. Thanks for that info! I didn't think the PRR had any, but . . . as the legend goes, "one of everything". ;-)

Zak

"Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail."

----- Original Message -----

From: Bill Volkmer

To: 'Zak'

Cc: 'talk prr'

Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 1:11 PM

Subject: RE: [PRR] E7 or E8?

The PRR never owned any steam generator cars. The CN and others relied heavily on them. As a matter of fact, one of the great blunders of all time in railroading (IMO) was when Amtrak did not take over the existing railroad steam generator cars (1971) and instead bought the SDP-40fs with steam generators knowing full well that they would become obsolete in a short while. There were enough steam generator cars in existence to serve all the Amtrak trains that needed them.

No further comments on Amtrak blunders forthcoming.

WDV

--Boundary_(ID_FM/Zd7RGleaB6B947ODKiQ)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:33:54 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] E7 or E8? From: Jerry Britton On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 01:21 PM, Zak wrote: > Great.=A0 Thanks for that info!=A0 I didn't think the PRR had any, but = . .=20 > . as the legend goes, "one of everything".=A0 ;-) Open to technical interpretation...but what about the "power car" on=20 the Keystone train? I think it included a steam generator, but it was much more than that,=20= also. > =A0 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Volkmer > To: 'Zak' > Cc: 'talk prr' > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 1:11 PM > Subject: RE: [PRR] E7 or E8? > > The PRR never owned any steam generator cars.=A0 ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] E7 or E8? Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:46:35 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008C_01C3A85A.39927B50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No, the power car contained a Hercules Diesel Generator set, nothing more. All the Keystone coaches and power car were retrofitted with steam trainlines and steam connectors so that they could "mu" with standard coach and head end equipment. WDV -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 1:34 PM To: Zak Cc: Bill Volkmer; talk prr Subject: Re: [PRR] E7 or E8? On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 01:21 PM, Zak wrote: > Great. Thanks for that info! I didn't think the PRR had any, but . . > . as the legend goes, "one of everything". ;-) Open to technical interpretation...but what about the "power car" on the Keystone train? I think it included a steam generator, but it was much more than that, also. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Volkmer > To: 'Zak' > Cc: 'talk prr' > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 1:11 PM > Subject: RE: [PRR] E7 or E8? > > The PRR never owned any steam generator cars. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ------=_NextPart_000_008C_01C3A85A.39927B50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

No,=20 the power car contained a Hercules Diesel Generator set, nothing = more. All=20 the Keystone coaches and power car were retrofitted with steam = trainlines and=20 steam connectors so that they could "mu" with standard coach and head = end=20 equipment.

WDV

-----Original Message-----
From: = Jerry Britton=20 [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, = 2003 1:34=20 PM
To: Zak
Cc: Bill Volkmer; talk = prr
Subject:=20 Re: [PRR] E7 or E8?

On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 01:21 PM, = Zak=20 wrote:

> Great. Thanks for that info! I didn't = think the=20 PRR had any, but . .
> . as the legend goes, "one of = everything". =20 ;-)

Open to technical interpretation...but what about the = "power car"=20 on
the Keystone train?

I think it included a steam = generator, but it=20 was much more than that,
also.
>
> ----- = Original=20 Message -----
> From: Bill Volkmer
> To: 'Zak'
> Cc: = 'talk=20 prr'
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 1:11 PM
> Subject: = RE:=20 [PRR] E7 or E8?
>
> The PRR never owned any steam = generator=20 = cars.
----------------------------------------------------------= -
Jerry=20 Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS  =20 jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N = Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing=20 list!
     http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandis= e=20 Service" - Model railroad products...
     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com<= /A>

------=_NextPart_000_008C_01C3A85A.39927B50-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Life-Like C-Liners Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 20:33:46 +0000 Greg Martin wrote: "On of the most difficult and a compromise you may likely accept as is the truck sideframes. They are distinctively different if you look close." A-Line once made C-Line sideframes, though I don't remember if they were scale or if they were designed to fit the Athearn 4-axle wheelbase. "Walt, it just depends on your level of acceptable compromises and you willingness to overcome them. They are very well detailed and can make up into "brass-like" offerings." They certainly beat upgrading the old AHM model! (Now to find something to do with the stash of AHM C-Line shells and Athearn GP-35 underframes...) Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:44:36 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] MDC RS-3 motor mount issues Doug writes: > Hello lists, > I'm building an MDC Alco RS-3, and I'm running into an issue I've never seen before. > The motor mounts aren't especially rigid, and they let the motor/flywheel assembly flex just enough to contact the frame at random (and aggravating) intervals.< Doug, you didn't tell us which version of the MDC RS-3 you have but I would guess that it the new "P2K- like" drive? I believe that the motor mounts are the same as the Athearn or at least like the Athearn? as they are for the original FA/B-2's? They imported version of these mounts were more pliable than the Athearn. I would try to replace them with the Athearn FIRST. Also, check to make sure your mounts are firmly pressed through the mounting hole in the frame... Yah, I know you already did this but still good to check. Years ago there were a batch of mounts that Irv bought from over sea that had this same issue, he changed to a stiffer motor mount. > I considered grinding down some of the frame around the flywheels for clearance, but the problem is mostly vertical, not side to side.< Also check to make sure the drive is not binding as well, this can cause the otor to lurch toward the truck. Before you go much further are you converting this to DCC? email me off line. > I'm currently considering throwing out the motor mounts and mounting the motor with styrene and silicone caulk for a more fixed approach. I've already replaced the lower motor clip (with it's springy metal protrusions) with a plain one that has wire soldered for electrical connectivity.< Okay now we are getting somewhere... Replace the lower clip with the original... These springy metal protrusions are there to apply upward pressure and keep the motor mount stiff. Then as the motor torks the movement is surpressed. You can still hard wire the lower motor mount but the springs resolve the problem. >I have a couple of possible solutions, but has anyone run into this before, and what did you do? > Thanks in advance! > Doug< Have fun with it Doug... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Elmira Branch Rail Size Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:20:02 -0500 Re: Comments about the 130, 152, 140 and 100# rail found on the Elmira Branch as sounding like it's too light. None of those rail weights are light even by today's standards, except perhaps for the 100#. But back in 1951 it was considered a decent weight rail. !30# was pretty standard, while the 140 and 152# were heavy. The PRR 152 and 155# were about the heaviest rails ever rolled for railroad use. !40# was the PRR standard for mainlines in the 1960s. Much of today's standard mainline rail is 136#. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: RE: [PRR] Elmira Branch Rail Size Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:38:37 -0600 Re: Comments about the 130, 152, 140 and 100# rail found on the Elmira Branch as sounding like it's too light. None of those rail weights are light even by today's standards, except perhaps for the 100#. But back in 1951 it was considered a decent weight rail. !30# was pretty standard, while the 140 and 152# were heavy. The PRR 152 and 155# were about the heaviest rails ever rolled for railroad use. !40# was the PRR standard for mainlines in the 1960s. Much of today's standard mainline rail is 136#. Al -- Al and all, Agree with everything in your reply. I was only referring to the 100 LB rail in my comment. I should have been clearer about that in the original email. Pete Reinhold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer Madness Revisited! Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 18:26:56 -0600 ----- Original Message ----- From: Just set up the doors on the car in > the "ventilated" mode. (On the other hand, you could set up the doors the > other way and run it as a regular boxcar, but why bother?) That is a given. Bob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walter Prusick" Subject: [PRR] Life Like C-Liners Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 21:21:39 -0500 Ben and all, That offer at Train World is what started this in the first place. I am fortunate that my daughter likes the PRR and she chose those units. I also have a few of those old AHM C-Liners, but I don't feel bad about burying them at the bottom of the box (as they as decorated with a dirty white "lightening stripe".). Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 21:26:43 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] MDC RS-3 motor mount issues Greg, list, Thanks for the much-needed advice! The MDC RS-3 I have is one that has Proto 2000 trucks/motors/motor mounts. Your possible solutions are much better than what I was originally looking at. No DCC in my future at present...I need more space to make that dream come true. Doug __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: [PRR] Decal for Scale Test Car Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 11:58:34 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C3A914.4F2BB390 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi List, I'm in need of decals for a PRR scale test car in HO. Anyone know if these are available? Pete Reinhold ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C3A914.4F2BB390 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi List,

I’m in need of decals for a PRR scale test car = in HO. Anyone know if these are available?

Pete Reinhold

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C3A914.4F2BB390-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:03:00 -0500 From: "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Life-Like C-Liners Ben Hom wrote: > > A-Line once made C-Line sideframes, though I don't remember if they were > scale or if they were designed to fit the Athearn 4-axle wheelbase. They are and they aren't. Same dimensions as the P1K Canadian frames, but the clamps on the back side match the Athearn trucks, so cutting, shaving, etc. is necessary to fit them to the P1K trucks. I bought two pairs, saw it was going to be a MPITA to make them work, then decided that weathering, moving at layout speed, and bad layout lighting would solve the problem of incorrect sideframes. That and adding another line to my "standard disclaimer" sheet for discerning layout visitors. Don't look for my detailed units to appear in any of Jim Six's photo albums :-) Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:11:37 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Stock Cars From: Jerry Britton Nope, not reefers! Stock cars this go round! Although I'll need some stray stock cars here and there, I need to fill out an entire train with stock cars! Train FW-8, the "Man 'O War", from Chicago to Harsimus Cove, was made up of NINE blocks of stock cars ( http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/trains/FW-8.ws4d ). Figure it'll be a while until I see PRR K7 or K8 stock cars in N scale, but does anyone have a feel for what the "home road" vs. "foreign road" mix might be on such a train? Originating in Chicago, would foreign cars have been forwarded, or were there stock auctions/markets in Chicago that would have resulted in offloading from western road cars and reloading onto eastern road cars? MicroTrains has done 40' Despatch stock cars in various roads (sample: http://www.wig-wag-trains.com/MTLPhotos/MTL-35060.jpg ). I can scrounge for some. But would those roads (GN, ATSF, etc) have come east? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:37:03 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Stock Cars Jerry, Several years ago RMC had an article entitled "The Last Stand of Stock Cars in the East". It was dominated by a discussion of PRR stock trains and would answer a lot of your questions. If I remember, I will get the exact date for you tonight since I have the mag out on my workbench as I work on making some stand-in K8s from TM stock cars (sorry - its HO). As I recall, prior to the conversions of the K9 and K11 cars in the late 50s, PRR stock trains were 50% PRR and 50% foreign. It had little to do with though shipment. I believe all stock was unloaded in Chicago or KC or both for feed, water and rest. It was because the PRR just did not own enough K7As and K8s for the business. I don't know if any particular western roads dominated the foreign consists of PRR stock trains, but the largest owners of stock cars were the SF, GN, and UP. I am thrilled with the rumor that BLI is contemplating six packs of K7As w/o sound. First, because I can't see (or hear) a solid train of cows mooing in synchronized cacophony, but second (and most important) I am building my own fleet of K8s. I currently have TM cars for 6 K8s. A 6 pack of K7As from BLI would make it 12. Add the 12 foreign cars and it begins to look like a train :-)) Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= Jerry Britton wrote: > Nope, not reefers! Stock cars this go round! > > Although I'll need some stray stock cars here and there, I need to fill > out an entire train with stock cars! > > Train FW-8, the "Man 'O War", from Chicago to Harsimus Cove, was made > up of NINE blocks of stock cars ( > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/trains/FW-8.ws4d ). > > Figure it'll be a while until I see PRR K7 or K8 stock cars in N scale, > but does anyone have a feel for what the "home road" vs. "foreign road" > mix might be on such a train? > > Originating in Chicago, would foreign cars have been forwarded, or were > there stock auctions/markets in Chicago that would have resulted in > offloading from western road cars and reloading onto eastern road cars? > > MicroTrains has done 40' Despatch stock cars in various roads (sample: > http://www.wig-wag-trains.com/MTLPhotos/MTL-35060.jpg ). I can scrounge > for some. But would those roads (GN, ATSF, etc) have come east? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:45:54 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Stock Cars From: Jerry Britton On Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 01:37 PM, Andrew S. Miller wrote: > I am thrilled with the rumor that BLI is contemplating six packs of > K7As > w/o sound. As soon as they announced the "Stock Car w/Sound" I sped off an e-mail to them telling them they would really blow a great opportunity if they did not offer multi-packs of the car in PRR. I submitted that maybe they shouldn't do other roads in multi-packs, but definitely the PRR. I suggested a multi-pack including one sound car would also be welcome, if a "no sound" multi-pack was not in their plans. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 11:00:20 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Vondruska Subject: [PRR] Re: [PennsyWest] Re: Centipedes on the main through Dayton? --0-1317100472-1068663620=:24916 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mark, One of the earliest stories written by Andy Sperando, Model Railroading's current editor, was a short prototype article about Pennsy Centipedes published in one of the 1961 issues. The brief story talks about downgraded Centipedes could be found plying the Panhandle lines west of Columbus. The story, if I remember right, had a picture of a Cenetipede somewhere in Darke County (Bradford and Union City) or Preble County (West Manchester and New Paris) in Ohio on the Richmond & Convington Rwy. connecting the double-tracked Columbus-Chicago Panhandle "frieght line" at Bradford on the Darke-Miami county line with the Little Miami's Dayton & Western, the Panhandle's "passenger line" at New Paris or on the Panhandle's doube-tracked main between New Paris and Richmond, Ind., (Wayne County). (Still recovering from THE DIVORCE, my once immaculatly organized and alphabetized magazine collection is a hopeless mess. Most recently it carried out an unsuccessful assassination attempt on me as I parked my bicycle next to its hapjazardly stacked boxes. I was briefly buried but emerged unscathed.) I am aware of two other pictures of Centipedes on the Little Miami both, if I remember right, were taken circa 1961. One is probably the aforementioned shot of a Centipede at Dayton's Union Station. The other shows a Cenetipede passing the Xenia "station," as the the 1880s freight station and tower were called after the Little Miami & Columbus & Xenia passenger station was razed in 1955. Rick, I don't think you'll find a shot of a Centipede in the Queen City for the same reason I'll never find my Golconda, a shot of a T-1 outside of CUT. The turntable at the (I'm hoping I remember this right) Pemberton enginie house was too short to accomodate either the 140+ -foot-long T-1 4-4-4-4 "permanently" connected to a coast-coast tender with a drawbar and similarly connected A-A Centiplede lash-ups. Several seasoned SPFs (that's SERIOUS Pennsy Fans, ya'll) have assured me that while the drawbar could be dropped and the two pieces of each lash-up truned separately, they didn't like to do it and it wasn't done often, if at all. I, for one, have yet to see a photo of anything larger than a K-4 Pacific on the Cincinnati-Xenia line although I am fairly sure it could accomodate M-1 Mountains. The Wye in Xenia at the northern end of this line, just west of Greene Tower guarding the diamonds of the B&O's Ironton Secondary, was large enough to accommodate the M1s. Tom V. Mark Tweeddale wrote: My name is Mark Tweeddale and I grew up in West Manchester as a child from 1958 to 1969. I have not seen the picture in question but if I could see it or some how get a copy of the book to check it out, I could tell you. Not to change the subject but I KNOW that the PRR ran T-1s through Dayton to Richmond, Indiana on this line in the 1950s. My wife is from Brookville, Ohio (east of West Manchester) and her father has a slide of one parked out by Heckathorn Road where they live. I would think it would be conceivable that a Centipede would be able to negotiate the trackage if a T-1 could. Thank you. Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PennsyWest-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard --0-1317100472-1068663620=:24916 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Mark,

One of the earliest stories written by Andy Sperando, Model Railroading's current editor, was a short prototype article about Pennsy Centipedes published in one of the 1961 issues. The brief story talks about downgraded Centipedes could be found plying the Panhandle lines west of Columbus. The story, if I remember right, had a picture of a Cenetipede somewhere in Darke County (Bradford and Union City) or Preble County (West Manchester and New Paris) in Ohio on the Richmond & Convington Rwy. connecting the double-tracked Columbus-Chicago Panhandle "frieght line" at Bradford on the Darke-Miami county line with the Little Miami's Dayton & Western, the Panhandle's "passenger line" at New Paris or on the Panhandle's doube-tracked main between New Paris and Richmond, Ind., (Wayne County).

(Still recovering from THE DIVORCE, my once immaculatly organized and alphabetized magazine collection is a hopeless mess. Most recently it carried out an unsuccessful assassination attempt on me as I parked my bicycle next to its hapjazardly stacked boxes. I was briefly buried but emerged unscathed.)

I am aware of two other pictures of Centipedes on the Little Miami both, if I remember right, were taken circa 1961. One is probably the aforementioned shot of a Centipede at Dayton's Union Station. The other shows a Cenetipede passing the Xenia "station," as the the 1880s freight station and tower were called after the Little Miami & Columbus & Xenia passenger station was razed in 1955.

Rick, I don't think you'll find a shot of a Centipede in the Queen City for the same reason I'll never find my Golconda, a shot of a T-1 outside of CUT. The turntable at the (I'm hoping I remember this right) Pemberton enginie house was too short to accomodate either the 140+ -foot-long T-1 4-4-4-4 "permanently" connected to a coast-coast tender with a drawbar and similarly connected A-A Centiplede lash-ups. Several seasoned SPFs (that's SERIOUS Pennsy Fans, ya'll) have assured me that while the drawbar could be dropped and the two pieces of each lash-up truned separately, they didn't like to do it and it wasn't done often, if at all. I, for one, have yet to see a photo of anything larger than a K-4 Pacific on the Cincinnati-Xenia line although I am fairly sure it could accomodate M-1 Mountains. The Wye in Xenia at the northern end of this line, just west of Greene Tower guarding the diamonds of the B&O's Ironton Secondary, was large enough to accommodate the M1s.

Tom V.

Mark Tweeddale <gandydancer4@mchsi.com> wrote:

My name is Mark Tweeddale and I grew up in West Manchester as a child from 1958 to 1969. I have not seen the picture in question but if I could see it or some how get a copy of the book to check it out, I could tell you. Not to change the subject but I KNOW that the PRR ran T-1s through Dayton to Richmond, Indiana on this line in the 1950s. My wife is from Brookville, Ohio (east of West Manchester) and her father has a slide of one parked out by Heckathorn Road where they live. I would think it would be conceivable that a Centipede would be able to negotiate the trackage if a T-1 could. Thank you.

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Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard --0-1317100472-1068663620=:24916-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "mike brown" Subject: Re: [PRR] Elmira Branch Rail Size Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 15:20:56 -0500 Al, I seem to remember replacing 162# CWR north of Perryville Md in the early 1980's...Did the PRR ever use 162# iron??? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Buchan" To: "'Pete Reinhold'" ; "'PRR-TALK'" Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 4:20 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Elmira Branch Rail Size > Re: Comments about the 130, 152, 140 and 100# rail found on the Elmira > Branch as sounding like it's too light. > > None of those rail weights are light even by today's standards, except > perhaps for the 100#. But back in 1951 it was considered a decent weight > rail. !30# was pretty standard, while the 140 and 152# were heavy. The > PRR 152 and 155# were about the heaviest rails ever rolled for railroad > use. !40# was the PRR standard for mainlines in the 1960s. Much of > today's standard mainline rail is 136#. > > Al > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Stock Cars Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 20:22:56 +0000 Jerry Britton wrote: "Although I'll need some stray stock cars here and there, I need to fill out an entire train with stock cars! <> Originating in Chicago, would foreign cars have been forwarded, or were there stock auctions/markets in Chicago that would have resulted in offloading from western road cars and reloading onto eastern road cars?" Foreign road cars were definitely forwarded on in FW-8 - documented roads include ATSF, SL-SF, C&NW, and UP. "MicroTrains has done 40' Despatch stock cars in various roads (sample: ttp://www.wig-wag-trains.com/MTLPhotos/MTL-35060.jpg ). I can scrounge for some. But would those roads (GN, ATSF, etc) have come east?" The roadnames would have come east - unfortunately, the M-T stock car represents only two groups of NYC stock cars rebuilt from USRA SS boxcar. It's nicely done, but every other roadname is bogus, especially the green Santa Fe car! In fact, a quick look at N scale stock cars turns up one nice car (unfortunately of a limited prototype), two post-steam era prototypes, and a bunch of stuff that looks like its been knocked off from HO scale models, some already of dubious origin. Atlas: UP Class S-40-12 (current production). Atlas also produced during the 1970s 86 ft bi-level Northern Pacific "Big Pig Palace" cars (Atlas #3121) designed specifically for hogs (stencil date is 10-64). The cars have "ATLAS AUSTRIA" cast on the underframe. These HOGX cars operated into the early 90s. Bachmann: Resembles the HO Varney low sided car. Dubious prototype. ConCor: 40' car based on the 40' single sheathed boxcar in general. CB&Q had some forty footers with same general appearance. Life-Like: A direct knock-off of the ex-Varney HO scale stock car. Dubious prototype. Model Power: The 40 ft car matches UP Class S-40-12. The roof's diagonal panels are oriented in the correct direction (unlike the Athearn HO car) but are rather crude. The 50 ft car (ex Lima?) is close in appearance to a small batch of late 60 ft CB&Q stock cars, although the size is compromised to fit on the same die base as two other cars) MDC: Same as their HO stock car, which sort of matches a Clinchfield prototype. Micro-Trains: NYC 28000-28499 (Lot 757-S) convertible stock cars rebuilt from USRA SS box cars in 1947. Revell/Rapido had a decent model of the St. Louis & Iron Mountain car (later MP) that was once an HO scale Ambroid kit. The underframe is crude but Ultimate N Scale offers a resin conversion to upgrade the car. Roco/Atlas/Walthers: NYC 28000-28499 (Lot 757-S) convertible stock cars rebuilt from USRA SS box cars in 1947. Not nearly as nice as the Micro- Trains car. Good luck. You've got your work cut out for you. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Stock Cars Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 20:26:10 +0000 Andrew Miller wrote: Several years ago RMC had an article entitled "The Last Stand of Stock Cars in the East". It was dominated by a discussion of PRR stock trains and would answer a lot of your questions. If I remember, I will get the exact date for you tonight since I have the mag out on my workbench as I work on making some stand-in K8s from TM stock cars (sorry - its HO). "The Last Stand of Stock Cars in the East," Richard Burg, RMC January 1993, p 101. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Stock Cars Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 22:50:56 -0600 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" > Nope, not reefers! Stock cars this go round! > > Although I'll need some stray stock cars here and there, I need to fill > out an entire train with stock cars! > > Train FW-8, the "Man 'O War", from Chicago to Harsimus Cove, was made > up of NINE blocks of stock cars ( > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/trains/FW-8.ws4d ). > Just to clarify, West of Pittsburgh FW-8 also included perishables, meat, and general freight as well. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Stock Cars Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 06:38:48 -0500 On Nov 12, 2003, at 11:50 PM, Bob Zoeller wrote: > Just to clarify, West of Pittsburgh FW-8 also included perishables, > meat, > and general freight as well. And, in all fairness, I should have clarified. I am using the blocking info as it arrives in Enola. By the time it hits Enola it is all livestock. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Centipedes on the Panhandle Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 11:27:14 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C3A9D9.17181F00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am CERTAIN there were no Centipedes operating west of Altoona in 1961. In the years preceding 1958 the Centipedes were used as east slope helpers. In 1958 they were stored at E. Altoona. In December 1958 they were re-activated and used on VERY low priority trains on the Middle Division and 2 sets were assigned to Philadelphia as helpers from S. Philadelphia to Paoli. So the photo in Ohio was unquestionably not taken in 1961. Maybe 1951. WDV Mark, One of the earliest stories written by Andy Sperando, Model Railroading's current editor, was a short prototype article about Pennsy Centipedes published in one of the 1961 issues. The brief story talks about downgraded Centipedes could be found plying the Panhandle lines west of Columbus. The story, if I remember right, had a picture of a Cenetipede somewhere in Darke County (Bradford and Union City) or Preble County (West Manchester and New Paris) in Ohio on the Richmond & Convington Rwy. connecting the double-tracked Columbus-Chicago Panhandle "frieght line" at Bradford on the Darke-Miami county line with the Little Miami's Dayton & Western, the Panhandle's "passenger line" at New Paris or on the Panhandle's doube-tracked main between New Paris and Richmond, Ind., (Wayne County). (Still recovering from THE DIVORCE, my once immaculatly organized and alphabetized magazine collection is a hopeless mess. Most recently it carried out an unsuccessful assassination attempt on me as I parked my bicycle next to its hapjazardly stacked boxes. I was briefly buried but emerged unscathed.) I am aware of two other pictures of Centipedes on the Little Miami both, if I remember right, were taken circa 1961. One is probably the aforementioned shot of a Centipede at Dayton's Union Station. The other shows a Cenetipede passing the Xenia "station," as the the 1880s freight station and tower were called after the Little Miami & Columbus & Xenia passenger station was razed in 1955. Rick, I don't think you'll find a shot of a Centipede in the Queen City for the same reason I'll never find my Golconda, a shot of a T-1 outside of CUT. The turntable at the (I'm hoping I remember this right) Pemberton enginie house was too short to accomodate either the 140+ -foot-long T-1 4-4-4-4 "permanently" connected to a coast-coast tender with a drawbar and similarly connected A-A Centiplede lash-ups. Several seasoned SPFs (that's SERIOUS Pennsy Fans, ya'll) have assured me that while the drawbar could be dropped and the two pieces of each lash-up truned separately, they didn't like to do it and it wasn't done often, if at all. I, for one, have yet to see a photo of anything larger than a K-4 Pacific on the Cincinnati-Xenia line although I am fairly sure it could accomodate M-1 Mountains. The Wye in Xenia at the northern end of this line, just west of Greene Tower guarding the diamonds of the B&O's Ironton Secondary, was large enough to accommodate the M1s. Tom V. Mark Tweeddale wrote: My name is Mark Tweeddale and I grew up in West Manchester as a child from 1958 to 1969. I have not seen the picture in question but if I could see it or some how get a copy of the book to check it out, I could tell you. Not to change the subject but I KNOW that the PRR ran T-1s through Dayton to Richmond, Indiana on this line in the 1950s. My wife is from Brookville, Ohio (east of West Manchester) and her father has a slide of one parked out by Heckathorn Road where they live. I would think it would be conceivable that a Centipede would be able to negotiate the trackage if a T-1 could. Thank you. ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C3A9D9.17181F00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

I am CERTAIN there = were no=20 Centipedes operating west of Altoona in 1961. In the years = preceding 1958=20 the Centipedes were used as east slope helpers. In 1958 they were = stored=20 at E. Altoona. In December 1958 they were re-activated and used on = VERY=20 low priority trains on the Middle Division and 2 sets were assigned to=20 Philadelphia as helpers from S. Philadelphia to = Paoli.

So the photo in = Ohio was=20 unquestionably not taken in 1961. Maybe 1951.

WDV

Mark,

One of the earliest stories = written by Andy=20 Sperando, Model Railroading's current editor, was a short = prototype=20 article about Pennsy Centipedes published in one of the 1961 issues. The = brief=20 story talks about downgraded Centipedes could be found plying the = Panhandle=20 lines west of Columbus. The story, if I remember right, had a picture of = a=20 Cenetipede somewhere in Darke County (Bradford and = Union City) or=20 Preble County (West Manchester and New Paris) in Ohio on = the Richmond &=20 Convington Rwy. connecting the double-tracked Columbus-Chicago = Panhandle=20 "frieght line" at Bradford on the Darke-Miami county line with the = Little=20 Miami's Dayton & Western, the Panhandle's "passenger line" at = New Paris=20 or on the Panhandle's doube-tracked main between New Paris and Richmond, = Ind.,=20 (Wayne County).

(Still recovering from THE DIVORCE, my = once=20 immaculatly organized and alphabetized magazine collection is a = hopeless=20 mess. Most recently it carried out an unsuccessful assassination attempt = on me=20 as I parked my bicycle next to its hapjazardly stacked boxes. I was = briefly=20 buried but emerged unscathed.)

I am aware of two other pictures of = Centipedes on=20 the Little Miami both, if I remember right, were taken circa 1961. One = is=20 probably the aforementioned shot of a Centipede at Dayton's Union = Station. The=20 other shows a Cenetipede passing the Xenia "station," as the = the 1880s=20 freight station and tower were called after the Little Miami & = Columbus=20 & Xenia passenger station was razed in 1955.

Rick, I don't think you'll find a shot = of a=20 Centipede in the Queen City for the same reason I'll never find my = Golconda, a=20 shot of a T-1 outside of CUT. The turntable at the (I'm hoping I = remember this=20 right) Pemberton enginie house was too short to accomodate either = the 140+=20 -foot-long T-1 4-4-4-4 "permanently" connected to a coast-coast = tender with=20 a drawbar and similarly connected A-A Centiplede=20 lash-ups. Several seasoned SPFs (that's SERIOUS Pennsy=20 Fans, ya'll) have assured me that while the drawbar could be = dropped and=20 the two pieces of each lash-up truned separately, they = didn't like to=20 do it and it wasn't done often, if at all. I, for one, have yet to = see a=20 photo of anything larger than a K-4 Pacific on the Cincinnati-Xenia line = although I am fairly sure it could accomodate M-1 Mountains. The Wye in = Xenia at=20 the northern end of this line, just west of Greene Tower guarding the = diamonds=20 of the B&O's Ironton Secondary, was large enough to = accommodate the=20 M1s.

Tom V.

Mark Tweeddale=20 <gandydancer4@mchsi.com> wrote:

My name is Mark Tweeddale and I grew up in West Manchester as = a child=20 from 1958 to 1969. I have not seen the picture in question but if I = could=20 see it or some how get a copy of the book to check it out, I could = tell=20 you. Not to change the subject but I KNOW that the PRR ran T-1s = through=20 Dayton to Richmond, Indiana on this line in the 1950s. My wife is = from=20 Brookville, Ohio (east of West Manchester) and her father has a = slide of=20 one parked out by Heckathorn Road where they live. I would think it = would=20 be conceivable that a Centipede would be able to negotiate the = trackage if=20 a T-1 could. Thank=20 you.

------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C3A9D9.17181F00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 12:00:38 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Vondruska Subject: Re: [PRR] Centipedes on the Panhandle --0-1852583503-1068753638=:94185 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bill, in the absence of any firm data to the contrary, I stand corrected. However, I am positive that Sperando's short article on Centipedes was in one of the 12 1961 issues of Model Railroader. Youse udder gize! Enough of the sarcasm about turning an A-A lash-up. In practice wasn't one of the units more often used as the lead unit to the point that spares may have been scrounged off of the usual trailing unit. Just somethughts Bill Volkmer wrote: I am CERTAIN there were no Centipedes operating west of Altoona in 1961. In the years preceding 1958 the Centipedes were used as east slope helpers. In 1958 they were stored at E. Altoona. In December 1958 they were re-activated and used on VERY low priority trains on the Middle Division and 2 sets were assigned to Philadelphia as helpers from S. Philadelphia to Paoli. So the photo in Ohio was unquestionably not taken in 1961. Maybe 1951. WDV Mark, One of the earliest stories written by Andy Sperando, Model Railroading's current editor, was a short prototype article about Pennsy Centipedes published in one of the 1961 issues. The brief story talks about downgraded Centipedes could be found plying the Panhandle lines west of Columbus. The story, if I remember right, had a picture of a Cenetipede somewhere in Darke County (Bradford and Union City) or Preble County (West Manchester and New Paris) in Ohio on the Richmond & Convington Rwy. connecting the double-tracked Columbus-Chicago Panhandle "frieght line" at Bradford on the Darke-Miami county line with the Little Miami's Dayton & Western, the Panhandle's "passenger line" at New Paris or on the Panhandle's doube-tracked main between New Paris and Richmond, Ind., (Wayne County). (Still recovering from THE DIVORCE, my once immaculatly organized and alphabetized magazine collection is a hopeless mess. Most recently it carried out an unsuccessful assassination attempt on me as I parked my bicycle next to its hapjazardly stacked boxes. I was briefly buried but emerged unscathed.) I am aware of two other pictures of Centipedes on the Little Miami both, if I remember right, were taken circa 1961. One is probably the aforementioned shot of a Centipede at Dayton's Union Station. The other shows a Cenetipede passing the Xenia "station," as the the 1880s freight station and tower were called after the Little Miami & Columbus & Xenia passenger station was razed in 1955. Rick, I don't think you'll find a shot of a Centipede in the Queen City for the same reason I'll never find my Golconda, a shot of a T-1 outside of CUT. The turntable at the (I'm hoping I remember this right) Pemberton enginie house was too short to accomodate either the 140+ -foot-long T-1 4-4-4-4 "permanently" connected to a coast-coast tender with a drawbar and similarly connected A-A Centiplede lash-ups. Several seasoned SPFs (that's SERIOUS Pennsy Fans, ya'll) have assured me that while the drawbar could be dropped and the two pieces of each lash-up truned separately, they didn't like to do it and it wasn't done often, if at all. I, for one, have yet to see a photo of anything larger than a K-4 Pacific on the Cincinnati-Xenia line although I am fairly sure it could accomodate M-1 Mountains. The Wye in Xenia at the northern end of this line, just west of Greene Tower guarding the diamonds of the B&O's Ironton Secondary, was large enough to accommodate the M1s. Tom V. Mark Tweeddale wrote: My name is Mark Tweeddale and I grew up in West Manchester as a child from 1958 to 1969. I have not seen the picture in question but if I could see it or some how get a copy of the book to check it out, I could tell you. Not to change the subject but I KNOW that the PRR ran T-1s through Dayton to Richmond, Indiana on this line in the 1950s. My wife is from Brookville, Ohio (east of West Manchester) and her father has a slide of one parked out by Heckathorn Road where they live. I would think it would be conceivable that a Centipede would be able to negotiate the trackage if a T-1 could. Thank you. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard --0-1852583503-1068753638=:94185 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Bill, in the absence of any firm data to the contrary, I stand corrected. However, I am positive that Sperando's short article on Centipedes was in one of the 12 1961 issues of Model Railroader.

Youse udder gize! Enough of the sarcasm about turning an A-A lash-up. In practice wasn't one of the units more often used as the lead unit to the point that spares may have been scrounged off of the usual trailing unit.

Just somethughts

Bill Volkmer <bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com> wrote:

I am CERTAIN there were no Centipedes operating west of Altoona in 1961. In the years preceding 1958 the Centipedes were used as east slope helpers. In 1958 they were stored at E. Altoona. In December 1958 they were re-activated and used on VERY low priority trains on the Middle Division and 2 sets were assigned to Philadelphia as helpers from S. Philadelphia to Paoli.

So the photo in Ohio was unquestionably not taken in 1961. Maybe 1951.

WDV

Mark,

    One of the earliest stories written by Andy Sperando, Model Railroading's current editor, was a short prototype article about Pennsy Centipedes published in one of the 1961 issues. The brief story talks about downgraded Centipedes could be found plying the Panhandle lines west of Columbus. The story, if I remember right, had a picture of a Cenetipede somewhere in Darke County (Bradford and Union City) or Preble County (West Manchester and New Paris) in Ohio on the Richmond & Convington Rwy. connecting the double-tracked Columbus-Chicago Panhandle "frieght line" at Bradford on the Darke-Miami county line with the Little Miami's Dayton & Western, the Panhandle's "passenger line" at New Paris or on the Panhandle's doube-tracked main between New Paris and Richmond, Ind., (Wayne County).

  (Still recovering from THE DIVORCE, my once immaculatly organized and alphabetized magazine collection is a hopeless mess. Most recently it carried out an unsuccessful assassination attempt on me as I parked my bicycle next to its hapjazardly stacked boxes. I was briefly buried but emerged unscathed.)

   I am aware of two other pictures of Centipedes on the Little Miami both, if I remember right, were taken circa 1961. One is probably the aforementioned shot of a Centipede at Dayton's Union Station. The other shows a Cenetipede passing the Xenia "station," as the the 1880s freight station and tower were called after the Little Miami & Columbus & Xenia passenger station was razed in 1955.

   Rick, I don't think you'll find a shot of a Centipede in the Queen City for the same reason I'll never find my Golconda, a shot of a T-1 outside of CUT. The turntable at the (I'm hoping I remember this right) Pemberton enginie house was too short to accomodate either the 140+ -foot-long T-1 4-4-4-4 "permanently" connected to a coast-coast tender with a drawbar and similarly connected A-A Centiplede lash-ups. Several seasoned SPFs (that's SERIOUS Pennsy Fans, ya'll) have assured me that while the drawbar could be dropped and the two pieces of each lash-up truned separately, they didn't like to do it and it wasn't done often, if at all. I, for one, have yet to see a photo of anything larger than a K-4 Pacific on the Cincinnati-Xenia line although I am fairly sure it could accomodate M-1 Mountains. The Wye in Xenia at the northern end of this line, just west of Greene Tower guarding the diamonds of the B&O's Ironton Secondary, was large enough to accommodate the M1s.

Tom V.

Mark Tweeddale <gandydancer4@mchsi.com> wrote:

My name is Mark Tweeddale and I grew up in West Manchester as a child from 1958 to 1969. I have not seen the picture in question but if I could see it or some how get a copy of the book to check it out, I could tell you. Not to change the subject but I KNOW that the PRR ran T-1s through Dayton to Richmond, Indiana on this line in the 1950s. My wife is from Brookville, Ohio (east of West Manchester) and her father has a slide of one parked out by Heckathorn Road where they live. I would think it would be conceivable that a Centipede would be able to negotiate the trackage if a T-1 could. Thank you.

Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard --0-1852583503-1068753638=:94185-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 15:10:01 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Centipedes on the Panhandle From: Jerry Britton On Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 03:00 PM, Tom Vondruska wrote: > =A0=A0Youse udder=A0gize!=A0Enough of the sarcasm about turning an A-A=20= > lash-up. In practice wasn't one of the units more often used as the=20 > lead unit to the point that spares may have been scrounged off of the=20= > usual trailing=A0unit. One thing to keep in mind about the AA Centipedes... As originally set=20= up for trainphone territory, only one unit of the pair had antennas. In=20= later years, as units broke down, etc., you would sometimes see an AA=20 with antennas on both units. So during the trainphone era, there would=20= have been a lead end of an AA set. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 15:34:18 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Centipedes on the Panhandle From: Bruce Smith --Apple-Mail-8-257745475 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 02:10 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: > > On Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 03:00 PM, Tom Vondruska wrote: > >> =A0=A0Youse udder=A0gize!=A0Enough of the sarcasm about turning an = A-A =20 >> lash-up. In practice wasn't one of the units more often used as the =20= >> lead unit to the point that spares may have been scrounged off of the = =20 >> usual trailing=A0unit. > > One thing to keep in mind about the AA Centipedes... As originally set = =20 > up for trainphone territory, only one unit of the pair had antennas. =20= > In later years, as units broke down, etc., you would sometimes see an =20= > AA with antennas on both units. So during the trainphone era, there =20= > would have been a lead end of an AA set. I wondered about that, after I dashed off one of those sarcastic =20 comments to Tom . OTOH, how hard would it have been to run a wire =20= between them and hook up a trainphone handset in each cab? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin =20= Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ = ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ = =20 | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | =20 ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| =20 |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= --Apple-Mail-8-257745475 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 02:10 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: On Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 03:00 PM, Tom Vondruska wrote: =A0=A0Youse udder=A0gize!=A0Enough of the sarcasm about turning = an A-A lash-up. In practice wasn't one of the units more often used as the lead unit to the point that spares may have been scrounged off of the usual trailing=A0unit. One thing to keep in mind about the AA Centipedes... As originally set up for trainphone territory, only one unit of the pair had antennas. In later years, as units broke down, etc., you would sometimes see an AA with antennas on both units. So during the trainphone era, there would have been a lead end of an AA set. I wondered about that, after I dashed off one of those sarcastic comments to Tom <. OTOH, how hard would it have been to run a wire between them and hook up a trainphone handset in each cab? Happy Rails Bruce HelveticaBruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. = =20 Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ =20 ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __=20 __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= --Apple-Mail-8-257745475-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Centipedes on the Panhandle Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 17:09:04 -0500 Don't forget. The Centipedes were PERMANENTLY COUPLED in pairs. You are right the pairs got mixed up in later years. -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 3:10 PM To: Tom Vondruska Cc: bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] Centipedes on the Panhandle On Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 03:00 PM, Tom Vondruska wrote: > =A0=A0Youse udder=A0gize!=A0Enough of the sarcasm about turning an A-A > lash-up. In practice wasn't one of the units more often used as the=20 > lead unit to the point that spares may have been scrounged off of the=20 > usual trailing=A0unit. One thing to keep in mind about the AA Centipedes... As originally set=20 up for trainphone territory, only one unit of the pair had antennas. In=20 later years, as units broke down, etc., you would sometimes see an AA=20 with antennas on both units. So during the trainphone era, there would=20 have been a lead end of an AA set. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred in Vt." Subject: Re: [PRR] Stock Cars Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 17:50:40 -0500 Jerry, and all, Stock cars was something I looked at strictly from the photos of same on the PRR. The following is a composite of the roadnames gleaned: MoPac-----------NP-----------GN--------CRI&P CMStP&P-------M-K-T-------T&P---------IC FRISCO---------NKP----------GOTHAM[something] Was taken aback that none of the larger western carrier names were in evidence. [ no SP or UP ] I have no credible answer as to why; surmised that brokerage reshipped the critters in what ever available eastern lines cars were on hand. Either way, this is enough variety to fill my modest needs. Hope there are others who have more authortative records than scanning the pix,; it has potetnial. If this helps, then I have done one thing right today. The teenage daughter will be in awe!!! Fred in Vt. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 1:11 PM Subject: [PRR] Stock Cars > Nope, not reefers! Stock cars this go round! > > Although I'll need some stray stock cars here and there, I need to fill > out an entire train with stock cars! > > Train FW-8, the "Man 'O War", from Chicago to Harsimus Cove, was made > up of NINE blocks of stock cars ( > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/trains/FW-8.ws4d ). > > Figure it'll be a while until I see PRR K7 or K8 stock cars in N scale, > but does anyone have a feel for what the "home road" vs. "foreign road" > mix might be on such a train? > > Originating in Chicago, would foreign cars have been forwarded, or were > there stock auctions/markets in Chicago that would have resulted in > offloading from western road cars and reloading onto eastern road cars? > > MicroTrains has done 40' Despatch stock cars in various roads (sample: > http://www.wig-wag-trains.com/MTLPhotos/MTL-35060.jpg ). I can scrounge > for some. But would those roads (GN, ATSF, etc) have come east? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:26:16 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Centipedes and T1's in Dayton and Cincinnati In a message dated 11/13/03 6:41:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 14:01:53 +0000 > From: ndbprr@att.net > Subject: Re: Re: Centipedes on the main through Dayton? > > At some point a ballon track was built near CUT as a series of pictures in > Trains some years back show a C&O train pulled by at least one E8 heading > north out of CUT only to return headed south a couple of minutes later. That balloon track was part of the original 1933 construction - it appears for example on a 1934 map of tracks in Cincinnati's Mill Creed.. A good thing, too, as the T1, with 107 foot wheelbase (engine and tender) might have fit on CUT's otherwise generous 125 foot turntable, but not the 183 foot (coupler to coupler) length of the Centipede. Incidentally, I tend to agree with Bill Volkmer -- I'm seeing Centipede pix around Dayton and Cincinnati that look like circa 1948-1951. However, once the PRR got enough E-7's delivered, the behemoth Baldwins seem to have left the area -- maybe to stay closer to their parts stock in Altoona. And it's an old wives' tale that T1's never made it into Cincinnati. Be sure to get your 2004 PRRT&HS membership in, because you will see two or more T1's in "PRR in Cincinnati", coming in the Spring Keystone along with over 230 other pictures of the Pennsy in the Queen City... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Planning a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:26:16 EST Subject: [PRR] Centipedes and T1's in Dayton and Cincinnati --part1_152.26c942eb.2ce58938_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/13/03 6:41:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 14:01:53 +0000 > From: ndbprr@att.net > Subject: Re: Re: Centipedes on the main through Dayton? > > At some point a ballon track was built near CUT as a series of pictures in > Trains some years back show a C&O train pulled by at least one E8 heading > north out of CUT only to return headed south a couple of minutes later. That balloon track was part of the original 1933 construction - it appears for example on a 1934 map of tracks in Cincinnati's Mill Creed.. A good thing, too, as the T1, with 107 foot wheelbase (engine and tender) might have fit on CUT's otherwise generous 125 foot turntable, but not the 183 foot (coupler to coupler) length of the Centipede. Incidentally, I tend to agree with Bill Volkmer -- I'm seeing Centipede pix around Dayton and Cincinnati that look like circa 1948-1951. However, once the PRR got enough E-7's delivered, the behemoth Baldwins seem to have left the area -- maybe to stay closer to their parts stock in Altoona. And it's an old wives' tale that T1's never made it into Cincinnati. Be sure to get your 2004 PRRT&HS membership in, because you will see two or more T1's in "PRR in Cincinnati", coming in the Spring Keystone along with over 230 other pictures of the Pennsy in the Queen City... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Planning a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_152.26c942eb.2ce58938_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 11/13/03 6:41:59 PM Eastern Standar= d Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes:

Message: 6
   Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 14:01:53 +0000
   From: ndbprr@att.net
Subject: Re: Re: Centipedes on the main through Dayton?

At some point a ballon track was built near CUT as a series of pictures in <= BR> Trains some years back show a C&O train pulled by at least one E8 headin= g
north out of CUT only to return headed south a couple of minutes later.

That balloon track was part of the original 1933 construction - it appears f= or example on a 1934 map of tracks in Cincinnati's Mill Creed.. A good= thing, too, as the T1, with 107 foot wheelbase (engine and tender) might ha= ve fit on CUT's otherwise generous 125 foot turntable, but not the 183 foot=20= (coupler to coupler) length of the Centipede.

Incidentally, I tend to agree with Bill Volkmer -- I'm seeing Centipede pix=20= around Dayton and Cincinnati that look like circa 1948-1951. However,=20= once the PRR got enough E-7's delivered, the behemoth Baldwins seem to have=20= left the area -- maybe to stay closer to their parts stock in Altoona.

And it's an old wives' tale that T1's never made it into Cincinnati. B= e sure to get your 2004 PRRT&HS membership in, because you will see two=20= or more T1's in "PRR in Cincinnati", coming in the Spring Keystone along wit= h over 230 other pictures of the Pennsy in the Queen City...

    = ;            &nb= sp;            Rick T= ipton - Louisville KY
            &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;   Planning a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
            &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;   And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_152.26c942eb.2ce58938_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Stock Cars Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 22:33:49 -0600 Fred in Vt. wrote: "Was taken aback that none of the larger western carrier names were in evidence. [ no SP or UP ] I have no credible answer as to why; surmised that brokerage reshipped the critters in whatever available eastern lines cars were on hand. Hope there are others who have more authoritative records than scanning the pix; it has potential." I would love to see a train sheet for FW-8 - I had to shelve six years ago for lack of documentation an article on modeling this train using commercially available HO kits. With the size of the UP and Santa Fe fleets, you would think some would have come east. "The following is a composite of the roadnames gleaned: MoPac-----------NP-----------GN--------CRI&P CMStP&P-------M-K-T-------T&P---------IC FRISCO---------NKP----------GOTHAM[something]" GOTHAM[something] = Gotham Stock Express (leased by Mather) Add CB&Q, C&NW and Armour Stock Express (ASEX) to the list. Coverage for these roads in HO isn't too bad: CB&Q: Athearn, Sunshine MP: Westerfield, Sunshine T&P: Westerfield NP: Central Valley, Proto 2000 (Mather Cars) GN: Accurail MILW: Westerfield, Mantua (ex-Lindberg) SL-SF: Sunshine Gotham Stock Express: Proto 2000 Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 23:01:41 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Stock Cars --part1_27.4b349b2f.2ce5ada5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/13/2003 6:02:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, pennsy@sover.net writes: > Jerry, and all, > Stock cars was something I looked at strictly from the photos of > same on the PRR. The following is a composite of the roadnames gleaned: > > MoPac-----------NP-----------GN--------CRI&P > CMStP&P-------M-K-T-------T&P---------IC > FRISCO---------NKP----------GOTHAM[something] > > Was taken aback that none of the larger western carrier names were in > evidence. [ no SP or UP ] I have no credible answer as to why; surmised that > brokerage reshipped the critters in what ever available eastern lines cars > were on hand. Either way, this is enough variety to fill my modest needs. > Hope there are others who have more authortative records than scanning the > pix,; it has potetnial. If this helps, then I have done one thing right > today. The teenage daughter will be in awe!!! > Since the UP and SP did not have tracks into Chicago, I would not expect to see large numbers of livestock cars for those roads. The UP eastern terminus for livestock was South Omaha stockyards. Upto 20,000 head of livestock were delivered her daily. Most were slaughtered nearby. The ATSF, MP, KCS, and others terminated in the Kansas City Stockyards (1900 -- 100,000 head of stock per day). Most of this livestock was dressed in Kansas City. On the other hand the roads observed in PRR trains, terminated in Chicago. So it would be more likely to see those cars on PRR rails. One could thus speculate the the beef being served in the East originated in the Northern Plains for the most part. Rich Orr --part1_27.4b349b2f.2ce5ada5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 11/13/2003 6:02:47 PM Eastern Stand= ard Time, pennsy@sover.net writes:

Jerry, and all,
      Stock cars was something I looked at strictly= from the photos of
same on the PRR. The following is a composite of the roadnames gleaned= :

MoPac-----------NP-----------GN--------CRI&P
CMStP&P-------M-K-T-------T&P---------IC
FRISCO---------NKP----------GOTHAM[something]

Was taken aback that none of the larger western carrier names were in
evidence. [ no SP or UP ] I have no credible answer as to why; surmised that=
brokerage reshipped the critters in what ever available eastern lines cars were on hand. Either way, this is enough variety to fill my modest nee= ds.
Hope there are others who have more authortative records than scanning the pix,; it has potetnial.   If this helps, then I have done one thin= g right
today. The teenage daughter will be in awe!!!

Since the UP and SP did not have tracks into Chicago, I would not expect to=20= see large numbers of livestock cars for those roads. The UP eastern te= rminus for livestock was South Omaha stockyards. Upto 20,000 head of l= ivestock were delivered her daily. Most were slaughtered nearby. = The ATSF, MP, KCS, and others terminated in the Kansas City Stockyard= s (1900 -- 100,000 head of stock per day). Most of this livestock was=20= dressed in Kansas City.

On the other hand the roads observed in PRR trains, terminated in Chicago.&n= bsp; So it would be more likely to see those cars on PRR rails. One co= uld thus speculate the the beef being served in the East originated in the N= orthern Plains for the most part.

Rich Orr --part1_27.4b349b2f.2ce5ada5_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Viv brice" Subject: [PRR] Good book or not Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 14:52:13 +1100 G'day, guys, Anyone like to tell me what they think about Timothy Jacobs book "History of the Pennsylvania Railway"? Is it a worthwhile addition to my library? Thanks in advance Regards, Viv Brice An SPF from 'Down Under' PRRT&HS member #6781 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 23:25:21 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Stock Cars -------------------------------1068783921 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have one photo of stock cars being switched into the cattle pens at Ephrata, Pa.. The cars were received from the Pennsy at Harrisburg (Enola or Harrisburg yard??) The stock came up from Texas. Add to the road name list of foriegn stock cars on the PRR that of the Santa Fe, D&RGW and Rock Island. Many MoPac cars in this block. These photos were given to me years ago by my grandfather who was the station agent at Ephrata, Pa., where the stock was unloaded, sent to local pastures for fattening then off to the processing plant for eastern restaurants. This may have been the operation of the King Ranch, an operation that lasted on the rails into the early sixties. After that it was handled by much faster trucking; I know it lasted into the mid-eighties. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 -------------------------------1068783921 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have one photo of stock cars being switched into the catt= le pens at Ephrata, Pa.. The cars were received from the Pennsy at Har= risburg (Enola or Harrisburg yard??) The stock came up from Texas= .   Add to the road name list of foriegn stock cars on the PRR tha= t of the Santa Fe, D&RGW and Rock Island. Many MoPac cars in this=20= block. These photos were given to me years ago by my grandfather who w= as the station agent at Ephrata, Pa., where the stock was unloaded, sent to=20= local pastures for fattening then off to the processing plant for eastern re= staurants.

This may have been the operation of the King Ranch, an operation= that lasted on the rails into the early sixties. After that it was ha= ndled by much faster trucking; I know it lasted into the mid-eigh= ties.

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
-------------------------------1068783921-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 02:10:53 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Good book? Viv: You be the judge: * No original research, and no use of primary sources. * Large portions of text are merely breezy paraphrases of Burgess & Kennedy's 1949 centennial history or PRR annual reports. So much so that you can actually open the books side by side and follow the progression of ideas from B&K to the 1988 book. * The book repeatedly refers to Penn Station/Pennsylvania Station in New York as "Pennsy Station." (!?) p. 111 * The signature photo of a K4 shows an oddball that has been fitted with Baldwin disk drivers and the signature photo of an L1 shows another oddball with an experimental firebox (no Belpaire). The captions mention nothing about these aberrations. Out of the thousands of photos of each of these classes that exist, what are the odds that someone would choose more *un*-typical photos than these? p0. 68-69 * Elsewhere, the book repeats an old caption error -- GG1 4863 is pictured arriving with the first electric train at Harrisburg, the Metropolitan. Except that with the Reading yards showing prominently in the right background, that means the train (and the GG1) originated in Pittsburgh. p. 61 * A Conrail piggyback train appears in the "WWI and the Roaring Twenties" chapter. pp. 94-95 * A photo of a pair of E2B experimental freight electrics is cheerfully labeled "A later model Pennsy passenger electric." p. 77 * A photo of a circa 1985 excursion with restored steamers 7002-1223 is captioned "Big, fast 4-4-2 Atlantics such as those at above right... hustling a vintage Pennsy express..." The 1223 isn't an Atlantic and the contemporary-times train isn't a "vintage express." pp. 94-95 * A photo of a Reading camelback with the insipid caption, "Such small railroads as the Philadelphia & Reading (part of the 'Pennsy Group') generally followed ..." p. 46 * "The full name of the new entity was the Pennsylvania New York Transportation Company" p.121 [actually, Pennsylvania New York Central Transportation Company] Nuff said? Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. -------------------------------------- Viv brice wrote: >G'day, guys, >Anyone like to tell me what they think about Timothy Jacobs book "History of >the Pennsylvania Railway"? Is it a worthwhile addition to my library? >Thanks in advance >Regards, Viv Brice >An SPF from 'Down Under' >PRRT&HS member #6781 > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 08:38:55 -0500 Subject: [PRR] 7th Annual PRR Modelers Needs Assessment Survey - From: Jerry Britton Please respond OFF-LIST to jerry@pennsyrr.com . Please put your modeled scale in the SUBJECT after the dash. It's that time of year again, folks! Time to vote for the three models you would like to see produced in your scale in several categories. Only the first three entries in each category will be counted. Others will be discarded. If you know the PRR class for an item, use it (ex. EP22). Otherwise use the manufacturer's model (ex. EMD E8). Following your answer, feel free to indicate if you would purchase this item in quantity, accept brass as an acceptable model, etc. Ballots are open through 5 p.m., Friday, November 21st. I will then summarize to the "PRR-talk" list, then forward the results to several dozen manufacturers. Each year many of our top requests make it to the assembly line. We don't know for sure that we have a say in that, but it certainly looks like the manufacturers are listening! You can view last years results in the list archives ( http://lists.dsop.com/prr/ ). Search for "Survey Results" and scroll down to 11/25/02 to a post by me. And now, the ballot: ---------------------------------------------------------- STEAM LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: 1. 2. 3. ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: (If desiring MP54 variants, please put under passenger equipment.) 1. 2. 3. DIESEL LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: 1. 2. 3. FREIGHT ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: 1. 2. 3. PASSENGER ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: 1. 2. 3. NON-REVENUE ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: 1. 2. 3. STRUCTURES DESIRED: 1. 2. 3. OTHER DESIRED: 1. 2. 3. Thank you for your participation! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 07:58:54 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Stock Cars From: Bruce Smith --Apple-Mail-2-316821031 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 10:33 PM, Benjamin Frank Hom wrote: >> Fred in Vt. wrote: >> "Was taken aback that none of the larger western carrier names were in >> evidence. [ no SP or UP ] I have no credible answer as to why; >> surmised that >> brokerage reshipped the critters in whatever available eastern lines >> cars >> were on hand. > I would love to see a train sheet for FW-8 - I had to shelve six years > ago > for lack of documentation an article on modeling this train using > commercially available HO kits. With the size of the UP and Santa Fe > fleets, you would think some would have come east. There is definitely photo evidence for UP cars on the PRR and IIRC, there are photos of ATSF stock cars as well, so these should be included. SP cars almost certainly showed up too, although the biggest issue would be the relative numbers. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-2-316821031 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII On Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 10:33 PM, Benjamin Frank Hom wrote: Fred in Vt. wrote: "Was taken aback that none of the larger western carrier names were in evidence. [ no SP or UP ] I have no credible answer as to why; surmised that brokerage reshipped the critters in whatever available eastern lines cars were on hand. I would love to see a train sheet for FW-8 - I had to shelve six years ago for lack of documentation an article on modeling this train using commercially available HO kits. With the size of the UP and Santa Fe fleets, you would think some would have come east. There is definitely photo evidence for UP cars on the PRR and IIRC, there are photos of ATSF stock cars as well, so these should be included. SP cars almost certainly showed up too, although the biggest issue would be the relative numbers. Happy Rails Bruce HelveticaBruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-2-316821031-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 11:00:37 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] 7th Annual PRR Modelers Needs Assessment Survey - From: Jerry Britton When returning ballots, PLEASE remember to indicate your scale in the SUBJECT, following the dash. I've already received several ballots with absolutely no indication of scale at all. These ballots will have to be discarded. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 13:04:54 -0500 From: "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." Subject: [PRR] Re: Good book or not --On Friday, November 14, 2003 1:10 -0500 "Viv brice" wrote: > Anyone like to tell me what they think about Timothy Jacobs book "History > of the Pennsylvania Railway"? Is it a worthwhile addition to my library? Viv's inquiry, to which I've already responded off-line, reminded me that the World lacks a true, unauthorized posthumous corporate biography of the Pennsylvania Railroad. I mean something comparable to Stover's _History of the B&O_ (1987) or Bryant's _A History of the AT&SF_ (1974), reprinted 1982 by University of Nebraska Press under the Bison Book label. One volume, cradle to grave, cut-to-the-chase narrative w/ statistical appendices, index, and bibliography (and end notes in Bryant's case). Oh, yes, there is the Jacobs book ref. in Viv's message, which is an OK overview for the beginner. (I characterized it as potentially a salty appetizer leading one to purchase many expensive cocktails.) I looked at all 267 titles in Rob Schoenberg's on-line bibliography this morning (URL http://prr.railfan.net/bibliography/PRRbooks.html) to see what covers the post Burgess & Kennedy period (1846 - 1946). It reminded me of two more recent titles that would be better for the beginner: Schafer and Soloman, _Pennsylvania Railroad_ (Railroad Color History Series) (Osceola, WI: Motorworks International Publishers & Wholesalers, 1997). and Dan Cupper, _The Pennsylvania Railroad: Its Place in History, 1846 - 1996 (Philadelphia: PRRT&HS Philadelphia Chapter, 1996). But, to get back to my main point as far as I can tell there has been no comprehensive historical book (as opposed the myriad series on specific topics) on the PRR since 1946. And the Centennial History is more of a chronicle than an analytical work; Burgess and Kennedy weren't exactly free (or perhaps disposed) to write critically, anyway. We have two books on the Penn Central debacle, _The Wreck of the PC_ and _No Way to Run a Railroad_. I confess to have read neither (yet); from reviews it seems that the latter is the more comprehensive. But there remains a gap between 1946 and 1957, perhaps the most critical years in the 20th Century for the PRR. Probably the best approach to a true _History of the PRR_ would be a two-volume synthesis of all of the specialized books and sets of books that have been published about the PRR, its subsidiaries, and its feeders in recent years. It would be a labor of several years and subject to review and criticism by one of the largest informed audiences in Christendom, but worth the effort. For one thing, it could correct some of the more egregious failures of research and/or instances of bad-history-by-editorial in the otherwise indispensable Triumph series. More importantly, it would fill an important void in the literature on the PRR between the casual fan and the SPF. Vagel Keller Pittsburgh ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 09:42:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] New Hoppers Guys, Those of us who model in O scale or Dabble in it like I do, are in for a real treat in the upcoming months. Nick Seaman and his compnay, Middle Division, is releasing, with the help of Atlas O, PRR H21a Hopper cars. Both 2 rail and 3 rail. Check this out: http://www.middledivision.com/ And look at those tempting prices. Who needs those Brass $295.00 Yoder Models when a fleet of them can be had for about 65 bucks a piece. Ahhh, plastic, gotta love it....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Frank & Andrea Amato" Subject: [PRR] Northumberland in Trains Magazine Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 20:47:20 -0600 Hey gang, Keep an eye out for next month's (Jan 2004) copy of Trains. The PRR in Northumberland will be featured in the magazine's "Railroad Blueprint" series. Just a public service announcement, for Northern Region buffs! Frank ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kris Kollar" Subject: [PRR] gondola flat car loads Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 00:08:39 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C3ABD5.C9BD0E60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Approx 1 year ago some one on the list was gracious enough to send me = copies of a manual that detailed exactly how to secure loads such as = steel girders, beams, columns, etc for shipment on flat cars and gons. = The manual tells you exactly what dimension lumber to use (based upon = the weight of the load) to fasten the loads as well as what types steel = rods, angle iron and even what kind of nails to use.=20 Using the photocopied pages from the manual I scratch built a large = steel beam for a load and have built all the cribbing, support lumber, = angle iron. Problem is the pages do not identify what the name and = revision of the manual is. Who published it and in what year. The = model is almost complete, photos have been taken and I have an article = started to hopefully be picked up by some magazine. I'd like to include = a lot of information from this technical manual but without the = identifying info it'll be rather difficult. =20 Would the list member that sent me the info please contact me or anyone = else for that matter that can help out. Thanks for the help, again! Kris ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C3ABD5.C9BD0E60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Approx 1 year ago some one on the list was gracious = enough to=20 send me copies of a manual that detailed exactly how to secure loads = such as=20 steel girders, beams, columns, etc for shipment on flat cars and=20 gons.  The manual tells you exactly what dimension = lumber to=20 use (based upon the weight of the load) to fasten the loads as well as = what=20 types steel rods, angle iron and even what kind of nails to=20 use.

Using the photocopied pages from the manual I = scratch built a=20 large steel beam for a load and have built all the cribbing, support = lumber,=20 angle iron. Problem is the pages do not identify what the name and = revision of the manual is. Who published it and in what = year. The=20 model is almost complete, photos have been taken and I have an = article=20 started to hopefully be picked up by some magazine. I'd like to = include a=20 lot of information from this technical manual but without the = identifying info=20 it'll be rather difficult.

Would the list member that sent me the info please = contact me=20 or anyone else for that matter that can help out. Thanks for the = help,=20 again!

Kris

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C3ABD5.C9BD0E60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 21:30:50 -0800 From: Peter Weiglin Subject: [PRR] T1s and Centipedes in Cincinnati Tom V wrote... "I don't think you'll find a shot of a Centipede in the Queen City for the same reason I'll never find my Golconda, a shot of a T-1 outside of CUT. The turntable at the (I'm hoping I remember this right) Pemberton engine house was too short to accomodate either the 140+ -foot-long T-1 4-4-4-4 "permanently" connected to a coast-coast tender with a drawbar and similarly connected A-A Centiplede lash-ups." = = = What did Pemberton have to do with servicing passenger engines coming into Cincinnati Union Terminal? CUT had some pretty good engine facilities. Would Pemberton have been involved in servicing T1s at all? As to Centipedes, their operation to the Cincinnati area may or may not have happened. If it did, chances are very good that it was an isolated aberration. Don't have the clearance/special instructions info here right now. Peter Weiglin San Mateo, CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] gondola flat car loads Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 07:48:52 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C3AC16.147B78C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MY guess is you probably have copies of pages from "Loading of = Commodities On Open Top Cars" published at various times by the AAR = Operations and Maintenance Department, Mechanical Division. Frank Brua -----Original Message----- From: Kris Kollar To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Sunday, November 16, 2003 12:03 AM Subject: [PRR] gondola flat car loads Approx 1 year ago some one on the list was gracious enough to send me = copies of a manual that detailed exactly how to secure loads such as = steel girders, beams, columns, etc for shipment on flat cars and gons. = The manual tells you exactly what dimension lumber to use (based upon = the weight of the load) to fasten the loads as well as what types steel = rods, angle iron and even what kind of nails to use.=20 Using the photocopied pages from the manual I scratch built a large = steel beam for a load and have built all the cribbing, support lumber, = angle iron. Problem is the pages do not identify what the name and = revision of the manual is. Who published it and in what year. The = model is almost complete, photos have been taken and I have an article = started to hopefully be picked up by some magazine. I'd like to include = a lot of information from this technical manual but without the = identifying info it'll be rather difficult. =20 Would the list member that sent me the info please contact me or = anyone else for that matter that can help out. Thanks for the help, = again! Kris ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C3AC16.147B78C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MY guess is you probably have copies of pages from = "Loading of=20 Commodities On Open Top Cars" published at various times by the AAR = Operations=20 and Maintenance Department, Mechanical Division.

Frank Brua

-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Kris Kollar <kkollar@cplx.net>
To: = prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date:=20 Sunday, November 16, 2003 12:03 AM
Subject: [PRR] = gondola flat=20 car loads

Approx 1 year ago some one on the list was = gracious enough=20 to send me copies of a manual that detailed exactly how to secure = loads such=20 as steel girders, beams, columns, etc for shipment on flat cars = and=20 gons.  The manual tells you exactly what dimension = lumber=20 to use (based upon the weight of the load) to fasten the loads as well = as what=20 types steel rods, angle iron and even what kind of nails to=20 use.

Using the photocopied pages from the manual I = scratch built=20 a large steel beam for a load and have built all the cribbing, support = lumber,=20 angle iron. Problem is the pages do not identify what the name = and=20 revision of the manual is. Who published it and in what = year. The=20 model is almost complete, photos have been taken and I have an = article=20 started to hopefully be picked up by some magazine. I'd like to = include=20 a lot of information from this technical manual but without the = identifying=20 info it'll be rather difficult.

Would the list member that sent me the info please = contact=20 me or anyone else for that matter that can help out. Thanks for = the=20 help, again!

Kris

------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C3AC16.147B78C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Tammra Link" Subject: [PRR] Ash Pit Gantries Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 10:26:55 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C3AC2C.28C39270 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Listers: Does anyone have any information like drawings and or photos = of the ashpit gantries used at the Canton and Crestline facilities? Part = of the one at Crestline can be seen on Gary Mittner's website. Here is = the link: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com/images/k45373.jpg Thanks in advance Matt Link ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C3AC2C.28C39270 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Listers:    Does anyone = have any=20 information like drawings and or photos of the ashpit gantries used at = the=20 Canton and Crestline facilities? Part of the one at Crestline can be = seen on=20 Gary Mittner's website. Here is the link: http://prrsteam.p= ennsyrr.com/images/k45373.jpg

Thanks in advance

Matt Link

------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C3AC2C.28C39270-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 11:11:46 -0500 Subject: [PRR] LV at Metuchen At Metuchen, NJ, the Lehigh Valley Perth Amboy branch goes under the PRR main line. There is also however evidence of a connecting ramp up from the LV to the PRR; this would be in the quadrant north of each railroad (assuming the LV is east-west timetable direction, like the PRR). What was this used for? Freight interchange? What sparks my interest a book on rail-trails in NJ (the LV line has become a hiking trail, the "Middlesex Greenway"). The book is "24 Great Rail-Trails of New Jersey" by Craig P. Della Penna (New England Cartographics, Amherst, 1999). It has an interesting mention of the connection: "Also across the street (Middlesex Avenue, which the LV crossed at grade) a branch came off the LV to connect to the Pennsy. This connection gave the LV a passenger connection to New York City. The line was carried over Middlesex Avenue where the abutments still stand and an alignment can be seen throught he wooded area just north of the trail right of way." Anybody know if this description of use is accurate? If so, when did this passenger service operate? As far as I know, the LV passenger service operated either to its own terminal adjacent to the CNJ in Jersey City (via the Newark Bay drawbridge), or via the connection at Hunter in Newark to the PRR (improved a few years ago and used since 1967 by NJ Transit's ex-CNJ Raritan Line). But the Perth Amboy branch of the LV (leaving the LV main about three miles west at South Plainfield) could've well provided an efficient access to the PRR. My 1930 Official Guide reprint shows only local trains on the LV Perth Amboy branch, with main line trains from either NY Penn Station or Jersey City Exchange Place routed via the Hunter connection (evident since they all stopped at LV's Meeker Ave Newark station -- the Exchange Place trains made Meeker Avenue the first stop in fact). So there is no evidence this connection was in use at that time for passenger service. Was it ever? John Bobsin. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "bill pokorny" Subject: [PRR] Fw: [Railfanning_Delmarva] Top 15 Reasons Railfanning is Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 12:36:55 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C3AC3E.51E52F30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Kevin Lehman=20 To: r d=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 10:05 AM Subject: [Railfanning_Delmarva] Top 15 Reasons Railfanning is better = than Deer Hunting "Top 15 Reasons Railfanning is better than Deer Hunting" =20 15. Kids don't cry BAMBI when you bring a "trophy" home. = 14. Wife wouldn't object too much to have "trophy shot" over dining = room table.=20 13. No taxidermist fee for "mounting" your best trophy shot.=20 12. Trains can be shot all year long.=20 11. A warm car beats a tree stand any day.=20 10. Train lovers don't get mad at you for shooting "Thomas The Tank = Engine".=20 9. You can't use a scanner to tell when deer are getting close.=20 8. No arguments when two people shoot the same train at the same time.=20 7. No boring Deer Hunting stories.=20 6. Nobody cares if you use a railroad crossing sign to "sight in" your = camera.=20 5. Three words: "Hunting License Fee".=20 4. SD90MAC's don't need to be field dressed.=20 3. Working models of deer? Yeah, right.=20 2. There's no limit on how many trains you're allowed to shoot.=20 1. Unless they're really dumb, your buddies won't mistake you for The = Southwest Chief.=20 Please visit my homepages =20 The Del-Mar-Va Model Railroad Club Website=20 http://community.webtv.net/PCRR4LIFE/TheDelMarVaModel Kevin S Lehman`s Train & Railroad Equipment Pictures http://community.webtv.net/KEVINLEHMAN/KevinSLehmansTrain/ Owner of Railfanning_Delmarva Yahoo Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Railfanning_Delmarva --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & = Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=3D5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/8ZCslB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To learn more about this group visit: = http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Railfanning_Delmarva To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Railfanning_Delmarva-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com or to go to and change your settings to web only: = http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Railfanning_Delmarva and you won`t have to = resubscribe later=20 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to = http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C3AC3E.51E52F30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

----- Original = Message -----=20
From: Kevin = Lehman

To: r d=20

Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 10:05 AM

Subject: [Railfanning_Delmarva] Top 15 Reasons Railfanning = is better=20 than Deer Hunting

"Top 15 Reasons Railfanning is better than Deer=20 Hunting"

15. Kids don't cry BAMBI when you bring a = "trophy"=20 home.           &n= bsp;       =20 14. Wife wouldn't object too much to have "trophy shot" over dining room = table.=20
13. No taxidermist fee for "mounting" your best trophy shot.
12. = Trains=20 can be shot all year long.
11. A warm car beats a tree stand any = day.=20
10. Train lovers don't get mad at you for shooting "Thomas The Tank = Engine".=20
9. You can't use a scanner to tell when deer are getting close. =
8. No=20 arguments when two people shoot the same train at the same time.
7. = No=20 boring Deer Hunting stories.
6. Nobody cares if you use a railroad = crossing=20 sign to "sight in" your camera.
5. Three words: "Hunting License = Fee".=20
4. SD90MAC's don't need to be field dressed.
3. Working models = of deer?=20 Yeah, right.
2. There's no limit on how many trains you're allowed = to shoot.=20
1. Unless they're really dumb, your buddies won't mistake you for = The=20 Southwest Chief.

Please visit my homepages
The = Del-Mar-Va Model Railroad Club Website
http://com= munity.webtv.net/PCRR4LIFE/TheDelMarVaModel
Kevin=20 S Lehman`s Train & Railroad Equipment Pictures
http:= //community.webtv.net/KEVINLEHMAN/KevinSLehmansTrain/
Owner=20 of Railfanning_Delmarva Yahoo Group
http://groups= .yahoo.com/group/Railfanning_Delmarva

------------------------= ---------
Do=20 you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product=20 search

[Non-text portions of this message have been=20 removed]

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20 ---------------------~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for = your HP,=20 Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 = or more=20 to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking= .com/l.asp?cid=3D5511
http://= us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/8ZCslB/TM
----------------= -----------------------------------------------------~->

To=20 learn more about this group visit: http://groups= .yahoo.com/group/Railfanning_Delmarva

To=20 unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Railfann= ing_Delmarva-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

or=20 to go to and change your settings to web only: http://groups= .yahoo.com/group/Railfanning_Delmarva=20 and you won`t have to resubscribe later

Your use of Yahoo! = Groups is=20 subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/ter= ms/=20

------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C3AC3E.51E52F30-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 13:02:54 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] LV at Metuchen --part1_126.3492d2e1.2ce915ce_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I believe the connection served the army base at Camp Kilmer in WWII...I've heard stories of troops being loaded on trains and carried around the countryside for a few days before being brought back to the camp...fake troop movements to cover up the real ones.Bill --part1_126.3492d2e1.2ce915ce_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I believe the connection served the army base at Camp=20= Kilmer in WWII...I've heard stories of troops being loaded on trains and car= ried around the countryside for a few days before being brought back to the=20= camp...fake troop movements to cover up the real ones.Bill --part1_126.3492d2e1.2ce915ce_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 14:50:01 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Pendleton, not Pemberton In a message dated 11/16/03 1:12:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Tom V wrote... > > "I don't think you'll find a shot of a Centipede in the Queen City for the > same > reason I'll never find my Golconda, a shot of a T-1 outside of CUT. The > turntable at the (I'm hoping I remember this right) Pemberton engine house > was > too short to accomodate either the 140+ -foot-long T-1 4-4-4-4 "permanently" > > connected to a coast-coast tender with a drawbar and similarly connected A-A > > Centiplede lash-ups." > > = = = > > What did Pemberton have to do with servicing passenger engines coming into > Cincinnati Union Terminal? CUT had some pretty good engine facilities. > Would > Pemberton have been involved in servicing T1s at all? > > As to Centipedes, their operation to the Cincinnati area may or may not have > > happened. If it did, chances are very good that it was an isolated > aberration. > Don't have the clearance/special instructions info here right now. > > Peter Weiglin > San Mateo, CA > Pemberton sounds like some place in NJ -- Pennsy's longtime Cincinnati engine terminal was Pendleton. I have no idea where that name originated, but there's strong evidence the Pennsy's predecessor Little Miami terminated here in 1843 (because of fear of locomotives downtown). Much more in the Keystone this spring, including T1's at CUT's engine terminal. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Planning a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 14:50:01 EST Subject: [PRR] Pendleton, not Pemberton --part1_46.41953b94.2ce92ee9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/16/03 1:12:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Tom V wrote... > > "I don't think you'll find a shot of a Centipede in the Queen City for the > same > reason I'll never find my Golconda, a shot of a T-1 outside of CUT. The > turntable at the (I'm hoping I remember this right) Pemberton engine house > was > too short to accomodate either the 140+ -foot-long T-1 4-4-4-4 "permanently" > > connected to a coast-coast tender with a drawbar and similarly connected A-A > > Centiplede lash-ups." > > = = = > > What did Pemberton have to do with servicing passenger engines coming into > Cincinnati Union Terminal? CUT had some pretty good engine facilities. > Would > Pemberton have been involved in servicing T1s at all? > > As to Centipedes, their operation to the Cincinnati area may or may not have > > happened. If it did, chances are very good that it was an isolated > aberration. > Don't have the clearance/special instructions info here right now. > > Peter Weiglin > San Mateo, CA > Pemberton sounds like some place in NJ -- Pennsy's longtime Cincinnati engine terminal was Pendleton. I have no idea where that name originated, but there's strong evidence the Pennsy's predecessor Little Miami terminated here in 1843 (because of fear of locomotives downtown). Much more in the Keystone this spring, including T1's at CUT's engine terminal. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Planning a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_46.41953b94.2ce92ee9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 11/16/03 1:12:45 AM Eastern Standar= d Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

Tom V wrote...

"I don't think you'll find a shot of a Centipede in the Queen City for the s= ame
reason I'll never find my Golconda, a shot of a T-1 outside of CUT. The
turntable at the (I'm hoping I remember this right) Pemberton engine house w= as
too short to accomodate either the 140+ -foot-long T-1 4-4-4-4 "permanently"=
connected to a coast-coast tender with a drawbar and similarly connected A-A=
Centiplede lash-ups."

=3D =3D =3D

What did Pemberton have to do with servicing passenger engines coming into <= BR> Cincinnati Union Terminal? CUT had some pretty good engine facilities. = Would
Pemberton have been involved in servicing T1s at all?

As to Centipedes, their operation to the Cincinnati area may or may not have=
happened. If it did, chances are very good that it was an isolated abe= rration.
Don't have the clearance/special instructions info here right now.
Peter Weiglin
San Mateo, CA

Pemberton sounds like some place in NJ -- Pennsy's longtime Cincinnati engin= e terminal was Pendleton. I have no idea where that name originated, b= ut there's strong evidence the Pennsy's predecessor Little Miami terminated=20= here in 1843 (because of fear of locomotives downtown).

Much more in the Keystone this spring, including T1's at CUT's engine termin= al.

    = ;            &nb= sp;            Rick T= ipton - Louisville KY
            &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;   Planning a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
            &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;   And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_46.41953b94.2ce92ee9_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 19:00:14 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Re: Altoona roundhouses List, Although this is old by now,there were three roundhouses from 17th St( or Bridge St as it was once called) down to the 12th St foot bridge. As Dan Cupper mentioned that two were for motive power I think the third may have been the Frt car shop at that time when it was the Altoona Machine shops. This would have been before they expanded east of todays 7th St bridge to build the psgr car shops,frt car shop and Juniata . There was also another roundhouse at approx 2nd St Altoona which was a freight car shop. That foundation area can still be seen today from Chestnut Ave. So including the E. Altoona roundhouse there were at least 5 roundhouses in Altoona,not all at the same time and not all used for locomotives. Pat McKinney [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 19:00:14 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Altoona roundhouses --part1_19f.1d2d3e48.2ce9698e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List, Although this is old by now,there were three roundhouses from 17th St( or Bridge St as it was once called) down to the 12th St foot bridge. As Dan Cupper mentioned that two were for motive power I think the third may have been the Frt car shop at that time when it was the Altoona Machine shops. This would have been before they expanded east of todays 7th St bridge to build the psgr car shops,frt car shop and Juniata . There was also another roundhouse at approx 2nd St Altoona which was a freight car shop. That foundation area can still be seen today from Chestnut Ave. So including the E. Altoona roundhouse there were at least 5 roundhouses in Altoona,not all at the same time and not all used for locomotives. Pat McKinney --part1_19f.1d2d3e48.2ce9698e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List,
          Although this is old=20= by now,there were three roundhouses from 17th St( or Bridge St as it was onc= e called) down to the 12th St foot bridge. As Dan Cupper mentioned that two=20= were for motive power I think the third may have been the Frt car shop at th= at time when it was the Altoona Machine shops. This would have been before t= hey expanded east of todays 7th St bridge to build the psgr car shops,frt ca= r shop and Juniata . There was also another roundhouse at approx 2nd St Alto= ona which was a freight car shop. That foundation area can still be seen tod= ay from Chestnut Ave. So including the E. Altoona roundhouse there were at l= east 5 roundhouses in Altoona,not all at the same time and not all used for=20= locomotives.

Pat McKinney --part1_19f.1d2d3e48.2ce9698e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walter Prusick" Subject: [PRR] Walthers R50b Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 20:41:17 -0500 Gentlemen, Maybe I was asleep at the switch, thus missing the response but I have to (re)ask, looking at two of the R50bs coupled, isn't there a lot of excess room between them. If so has anyone found an "easy" way to correct this long distance connection. I'd rather not try to take one of these apart for fear of damaging something. Thanks in advance. Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Northumberland in Trains Magazine Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 08:49:58 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C3ACE7.C911B6B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Written by "Moi" WDV -----Original Message----- From: Frank & Andrea Amato [mailto:amato@mchsi.com] Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2003 9:47 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Northumberland in Trains Magazine Hey gang, Keep an eye out for next month's (Jan 2004) copy of Trains. The PRR in Northumberland will be featured in the magazine's "Railroad Blueprint" series. Just a public service announcement, for Northern Region buffs! Frank ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C3ACE7.C911B6B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Written by "Moi"

WDV

-----Original Message-----
From: = Frank &=20 Andrea Amato [mailto:amato@mchsi.com]
Sent: Saturday, = November 15,=20 2003 9:47 PM
To: PRR-Talk LIST
Subject: [PRR]=20 Northumberland in Trains Magazine

Hey gang,

Keep an eye out for next month's = (Jan 2004)=20 copy of Trains. The PRR in
Northumberland will be featured in = the=20 magazine's "Railroad Blueprint"
series.

Just a public = service=20 announcement, for Northern Region buffs!

   =20 = Frank

----------------------------------------------------= -------------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

<= /P>
------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C3ACE7.C911B6B0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 09:39:09 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Photos of New Alkem Scale Models Products From: Jerry Britton Alkem Scale Models has posted photos of their two new PRR products that are due yet this year... ...an HO scale PRR four track signal bridge (Harrisburg to Pittsburgh variety) ...and N scale PRR lineside details kit, including pipe fence stanchions. You can see them on the Alkem site: http://www.alkemscalemodels.com/ Or on Merchandise Service (caution, dealer link!): http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/ms_ar.html ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 10:20:31 -0500 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] PRR on CMT --=====================_1363122==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I just watched CMTs program on the "40 Greatest Men of Country Music". At #33 about 30 minutes into the 3 hour program they covered Jimmie Rodgers, the "Father of Country Music", and often called "the Singing Brakeman" because of all the railroad focused songs he wrote and sang. This segment included about 20 seconds of PRR steam motion pictures, including some of Jimmie riding on the rear deck of a tender, complete with doghouse. CMT does not list any replay of this, but if I see it listed I will alert you all. And I will watch my tape of it to see what locomotive was in it. I think it was an M1. By the way, Johnny Cash, my hero, ended up appropriately at #1- Sooooeeee! Tom Hayden --=====================_1363122==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I just watched CMTs program on the "40 Greatest Men of Country Music". At #33 about 30 minutes into the 3 hour program they covered Jimmie Rodgers, the "Father of Country Music", and often called "the Singing Brakeman" because of all the railroad focused songs he wrote and sang. This segment included about 20 seconds of PRR steam motion pictures, including some of Jimmie riding on the rear deck of a tender, complete with doghouse. CMT does not list any replay of this, but if I see it listed I will alert you all. And I will watch my tape of it to see what locomotive was in it. I think it was an M1.

By the way, Johnny Cash, my hero, ended up appropriately at #1- Sooooeeee!

Tom Hayden

--=====================_1363122==_.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Passenger car book is here at last Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 20:34:14 -0500 Hi Guys, I got my Passenger car consist book today at long last. A quick thumb through it reveals that I would have bought it anyway. I am not the passenger car expert, so it will help when I get to paint mine. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: SUVCWORR@aol.com From: RichofScot@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 20:50:44 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Passenger car book is here at last Mine arrived today also. Skimmed it briefly. Looks great. Rich Orr [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 20:50:44 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger car book is here at last --part1_196.22b42181.2cead4f4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mine arrived today also. Skimmed it briefly. Looks great. Rich Orr --part1_196.22b42181.2cead4f4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mine arrived today also. Skimmed it briefly.&nbs= p; Looks great.

Rich Orr --part1_196.22b42181.2cead4f4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger car book is here at last Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 20:33:17 -0600 Good. To save shipping I bunched it with a couple DVDs for my wife from Amazon and latest estimate is as late as December 23 arrival due to the book delay. Maybe now they will hit their December 2 early arrival date. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Lane" To: "PRR Talk" ; "PRR Fax" Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 7:34 PM Subject: [PRR] Passenger car book is here at last > Hi Guys, > > I got my Passenger car consist book today at long last. A quick thumb > through it reveals that I would have bought it anyway. I am not the > passenger car expert, so it will help when I get to paint mine. > > Thanks > Bill > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 22:13:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Aerotrain List, In looking over my Varney Aerotrain I have had for years, I was wondering if the prototype featured Drawbar Connections between the cars like the Varney model or were they actually Knuckle Couplers? Looking at photos I can come up with just dosn't show this conection. Anyone know for sure? Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] PRR X44 Boxcars Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 22:20:14 -0500 Does anyone know if the roofwalks on the PRR X44 class boxcars were painted freight car red, black or unpainted galvanized. The pictures in the PRR Color guides seem to indicate unpainted galvanized roofwalks, however I am not certain. Thanks. Brian J Carlson Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] Aerotrain Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 21:40:42 -0600 Gary, I have a photo of the connection. Somewhere I picked up a bunch of scans from an Aerotrain brochure. It is a type of knuckle coupler, but it does not look compatible with regular passenger car couplers. It looks more like what you would see on a rapid transit car. I can e-mail you the 73k file if you like. Andy Cich -----Original Message----- List, In looking over my Varney Aerotrain I have had for years, I was wondering if the prototype featured Drawbar Connections between the cars like the Varney model or were they actually Knuckle Couplers? Looking at photos I can come up with just dosn't show this conection. Anyone know for sure? Thanks, Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 22:44:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] Aerotrain Andy, Thanks for the note. Yes, please if you can, send a jpg file of the connection. No big hurry......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "George Pandelios" Subject: [PRR] RE: New Hoppers Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 00:03:46 -0500 Hallelujah Hollywood!!! Finally a real H21A in 3-rail O! I don't believe it!!! Nice website, too. Thanks, Gary! George Modeling the Weirton, WV - Steubenville, OH area in O-gauge circa 1948-1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger car book is here at last Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 06:39:06 -0500 On Nov 17, 2003, at 9:33 PM, Bob Zoeller wrote: > Good. To save shipping I bunched it with a couple DVDs for my wife > from > Amazon and latest estimate is as late as December 23 arrival due to > the book > delay. Maybe now they will hit their December 2 early arrival date. Amazon was probably playing pessimistic. Those who received theirs already "probably" ordered direct. TLC would have shipped them first (most likely) then shipments to distributors. I ordered through a distributor and was told I would have them by the end of this week. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 20:34:14 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Passenger car book is here at last Hi Guys, I got my Passenger car consist book today at long last. A quick thumb through it reveals that I would have bought it anyway. I am not the passenger car expert, so it will help when I get to paint mine. Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 09:19:30 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50b Walt, Since the mock Kadee couplers will eventually need to be replaced anyway, why not use some Kadee short shank version (#45?). Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= Walter Prusick wrote: > Gentlemen, > Maybe I was asleep at the switch, thus missing the response but I have to > (re)ask, looking at two of the R50bs coupled, isn't there a lot of excess > room between them. If so has anyone found an "easy" way to correct this long > distance connection. I'd rather not try to take one of these apart for fear > of damaging something. Thanks in advance. > > Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Paul Stumpff Subject: [PRR] Last PRR steam in Youngstown [E&A div] Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:08:31 -0500 In this last Sunday's Vindicator [Youngstown, OH], the "50 Years Ago" section had a note that the PRR announced that it was fully converted to diesels in the Youngstown area [Nov. 16,1953]. Were the E&A, PY&A and Detour branches steam free from that date on, or were there ever instances of steam operated on them after 1953? A lot of steamers were scrapped in the Mahoning and Shenango Valleys, of course they were towed there. I know that the nearby E&P in Pennsylvania had steam until 1957. Paul S. in Geneva, OH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Nesbitt" Subject: RE: [PRR] Last PRR steam in Youngstown [E&A div] Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:48:23 -0500 " A lot of steamers were scrapped in the Mahoning and Shenango Valleys, of course they were towed there. " As a point of interest, would multible steamers be towed all at once, making up a train or would they just tack one on to a freight heading in that direction? It would make a sad but interesting picture of a new diesel towing lot of steamers to the scrapper Thanks Kenny -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Paul Stumpff Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 11:09 AM To: 'PRR-Talk' Subject: [PRR] Last PRR steam in Youngstown [E&A div] In this last Sunday's Vindicator [Youngstown, OH], the "50 Years Ago" section had a note that the PRR announced that it was fully converted to diesels in the Youngstown area [Nov. 16,1953]. Were the E&A, PY&A and Detour branches steam free from that date on, or were there ever instances of steam operated on them after 1953? A lot of steamers were scrapped in the Mahoning and Shenango Valleys, of course they were towed there. I know that the nearby E&P in Pennsylvania had steam until 1957. Paul S. in Geneva, OH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _____________________________________________________ This message scanned for viruses by CoreComm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:17:18 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Last PRR steam in Youngstown [E&A div] From: Bruce Smith --Apple-Mail-4-674324989 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On Tuesday, November 18, 2003, at 10:48 AM, Ken Nesbitt wrote: > As a point of interest, would multible steamers be towed all at once, > making up a train or would they just tack one on to a freight heading =20= > in > that direction? Yes (to both) > It would make a sad but interesting picture of a new > diesel towing lot of steamers to the scrapper Indeed, rarely modeled sights include trains of steamers (or electrics =20= or diesels) headed for scrap/trade in. This could get pretty expensive =20= though. Do not forget the delivery of new locomotives, and the =20 movement of dead locos (steam or diesel) in trains to shops for major =20= class repairs. In the case of the steamers, the piston rods should be =20= off. The other problem with this is that you can only run this train =20= so often before it gets boring. Perhaps better to have a line of =20 stored steamers on the siding circa 1959... I do plan on models of engines being delivered to show up once in =20 awhile...Baldwin VO1000s (Stewart) for NP and US Transportation Corps =20= and Santa Fe 2-10-4s (AHM, Brass?) were shipped were all shipped in =20 June 1944. I've also looked at a few models of export locos that could =20= be dead in a train...but even that can get pricey (=A0=A3247.06!) An =20= occasional steamer from NJ may also appear headed for a major =20 rebuilding at Altoona. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin =20= Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ = ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ = =20 | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | =20 ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| =20 |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= --Apple-Mail-4-674324989 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Tuesday, November 18, 2003, at 10:48 AM, Ken Nesbitt wrote: As a point of interest, would multible steamers be towed all at once, making up a train or would they just tack one on to a freight heading in that direction? =20 Yes (to both) It would make a sad but interesting picture of a new diesel towing lot of steamers to the scrapper Indeed, rarely modeled sights include trains of steamers (or electrics or diesels) headed for scrap/trade in. This could get pretty expensive though. Do not forget the delivery of new locomotives, and the movement of dead locos (steam or diesel) in trains to shops for major class repairs. In the case of the steamers, the piston rods should be off. The other problem with this is that you can only run this train so often before it gets boring. Perhaps better to have a line of stored steamers on the siding circa 1959... I do plan on models of engines being delivered to show up once in awhile...Baldwin VO1000s (Stewart) for NP and US Transportation Corps and Santa Fe 2-10-4s (AHM, Brass?) were shipped were all shipped in June 1944. I've also looked at a few models of export locos that could be dead in a train...but even that can get pricey (Arial=A0=A3247.06!)=20= An occasional steamer from NJ may also appear headed for a major rebuilding at Altoona. Happy Rails Bruce HelveticaBruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. = =20 Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ =20 ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __=20 __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= --Apple-Mail-4-674324989-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Last PRR steam in Youngstown [E&A div] Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:35:38 +0000 Kenny Nesbitt asked: As a point of interest, would multiple steamers be towed all at once, making up a train or would they just tack one on to a freight heading in that direction? It would make a sad but interesting picture of a new diesel towing lot of steamers to the scrapper. I'm at work right now and can't call up the exact reference, but there's film footage in either a Herron video or Clarence Weaver tape that shows a slow moving scrapping extra. I doubt that you'd want to tack one onto a freight because of the speed restrictions it would impose. (Modeling this in HO could be a problem, as the weight of a cut of Bowser/Penn Line locomotives going to the scrapper might give a model diesel fits. Could be a use for those early Spectrum K4s that you don't feel like remototing! ;-) OTOH, new locomotives were definitely cut into freights dead in tow for delivery. There's footage of a freight shot at speed with a cut of spotless BAR GP9s with idler gons separating each locomotive. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: amato@mchsi.com Subject: [PRR] Wilkes-Barre branch questions Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:58:52 +0000 Listvolk, Benchwork construction for my new (N scale) layout has kicked off, and I was all set to model the Buffalo line (Northumberland to Watsontown). But after perusing "Trackside Scranton" recently, I have some questions about operations on the Wilkes-Barre branch, circa 1960. I see trains CSB-1, CSB-2, and BA-15 in the 1957 ETT, but not on the 1960 train schedules. Were these trains consolidated into BC-7 and CSB-8? Bill V. also mentioned in a previous post that coal off AN-16 was sent from Northumberland to Wilkes-Barre. Solid trains, or in the scheduled freights? Finally, any passenger ops? I assume that passenger trains on the branch would have been dropped by 1960. Operation at Buttonwood Yard is really what got my attention. Seems quite active, with the D&H and CNJ connections, plus run-throughs over to Hudson yard. Plus, it's much more compact than Northumberland, so it may work out better in the 12 feet I have allocated. Thanks in advance! Frank ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Last PRR steam in Youngstown [E&A div] Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:10:49 -0600 I've seen pictures of steamers towed around horseshoe curve, each locomotive with tender separated by a gondola. -----Original Message----- From: Ken Nesbitt [mailto:ken.nesbitt@fbcs-inc.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 10:48 AM To: 'Paul Stumpff'; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: RE: [PRR] Last PRR steam in Youngstown [E&A div] " A lot of steamers were scrapped in the Mahoning and Shenango Valleys, of course they were towed there. " As a point of interest, would multible steamers be towed all at once, making up a train or would they just tack one on to a freight heading in that direction? It would make a sad but interesting picture of a new diesel towing lot of steamers to the scrapper Thanks Kenny -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Paul Stumpff Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 11:09 AM To: 'PRR-Talk' Subject: [PRR] Last PRR steam in Youngstown [E&A div] In this last Sunday's Vindicator [Youngstown, OH], the "50 Years Ago" section had a note that the PRR announced that it was fully converted to diesels in the Youngstown area [Nov. 16,1953]. Were the E&A, PY&A and Detour branches steam free from that date on, or were there ever instances of steam operated on them after 1953? A lot of steamers were scrapped in the Mahoning and Shenango Valleys, of course they were towed there. I know that the nearby E&P in Pennsylvania had steam until 1957. Paul S. in Geneva, OH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _____________________________________________________ This message scanned for viruses by CoreComm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger car book is here at last Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:22:29 -0500 On Nov 18, 2003, at 6:39 AM, Jerry @ Pennsy wrote: > On Nov 17, 2003, at 9:33 PM, Bob Zoeller wrote: > >> Good. To save shipping I bunched it with a couple DVDs for my wife >> from >> Amazon and latest estimate is as late as December 23 arrival due to >> the book >> delay. Maybe now they will hit their December 2 early arrival date. > > Amazon was probably playing pessimistic. Those who received theirs > already "probably" ordered direct. TLC would have shipped them first > (most likely) then shipments to distributors. I ordered through a > distributor and was told I would have them by the end of this week. > Speak of the devil --- my shipment arrived this afternoon! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 00:44:14 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Dead steamers in tow Hello list, I'm at work and can't give you an exact page number, but there's a picture in Pennsy Power 2 of a dead K4s in a freight train being sent to the scrappers. She's by herself, surrounded by freight cars. To avoid this depressing sight on my future railroad, I plan on modeling 1948...grin! Doug --- b.hom@att.net wrote, in part: > Kenny Nesbitt asked: > As a point of interest, would multiple steamers be > towed all at once, > making up a train or would they just tack one on to > a freight heading in > that direction? It would make a sad but > interesting picture of a new > diesel towing lot of steamers to the scrapper. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry Fitch" Subject: [PRR] modeled trains of scrapped steamers Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 07:30:41 -0500 To the list at large: In a twist on this recent theme of rarely modeled sights include trains of steamers heading to scrap. I already have a scrap train of sorts. However, it is a train full of dead diesels that I tow with steam and includes an R50b to handle the bodies of the diesel salesmen who peddled them to the company. I also have in the works a ghost Penn Central train to be pulled by PRR and NYC steam power to symbolize the reverse of the black day on February 1, 1968. I fully expect a load of cobblers to be thrown my way for writing this however this is how I deal with my loss. Alas, poor snifting valve, we knew thee well. Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 09:20:41 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Survey Reminder - Due 11/21 From: Jerry Britton Just a reminder that ballots for the "7th Annual PRR Modelers Needs Survey" are due by 5 p.m. this Friday, November 21st. If you need a copy of the form, you can get it from the list archives. Response thus far has been very good. I've already received a 10% response rate. Keep them coming! And YES, you can complete more than one ballot if you model in more than one scale! Be sure to mark your ballot for what scale it is for. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] P2k FA drive Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 16:20:27 +0000 This is an intersting comment that I found in one of Trains.com forums regarding using P2K FA drives for repowering. I don't know if this was mentioned before since I am new to this forum but if you have stewart RS-3 units the entire drive from the FA-2 loco's fits perfect in the RS-3 and give you the correct trucks rather than the athearn trucks , you may also use just the trucks and retain the athearn drive , I used the entire drive from a few ruined brush painted loco's off of ebay , I wanted them the run with the PK-2 units , this holds true for using the motors in EMD units by athearn , the truck gearing is the same and is also interchangable , even on the older AS-16's , by stewart . this makes a world of difference in the loco's and the trucks can be purchased direct from lifelike for 7 dollars a pair . ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:47:32 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] LV at Metuchen Bill suggests the PRR-LV connection at Metuchen may have served Camp Kilmer. This raises some more questions and possibilities. First, I was dubious; Camp Kilmer on today's maps anyway is on Plainfield Avenue, not far from the Edison PRR station. This is some miles west of Metuchen, and I don't see an obvious connection between the LV and Camp Kilmer. The Reading Port Reading Branch comes a bit closer to Camp Kilmer, but as far as I know there was no connection between LV and Reading; the LV goes under the Reading, maybe a mile west of where the LV goes under the PRR. On the other hand, Googling revealed a years-old plea by an individual seeking more info on the LV service into Camp Kilmer! How, where, not clear. Bill, are you saying the connection was used to deliver trains to/from the LV via PRR, using the PRR mainline to reach the spur to Camp Kilmer? This may make sense, although the trains would have had to reverse direction on the PRR to reach the Kilmer area, an awkward move on the busy PRR main. Wasn't Camp Kilmer associated with the loop track and overhead bridge on the PRR main line, east of Edison? And there was also a track connection from this general area on the PRR to the Reading. Today, it can be detected as an underpass under I-287 that provides access to an apartment complex off of New Durham Road; the underpass was apparently built for the railroad and is really too narrow for the road it now serves -- which is appropriately called "Reading Road!" The apartment complex was the site about ten years ago of the gas pipeline explosion which burned down several units; the pipeline runs along the Reading track. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 12:24:07 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Mid-Week Layout Tour Fix From: Jerry Britton For those needing a mid-week layout tour fix, both Ken McCorry and Paul Backenstose are open this evening. Both are located in Downingtown, PA. Details on the Timetable page of Keystone Crossings. You might also want to peak ahead at all of the open houses for this weekend. Quite a nice selection! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:56:55 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Mid-Week Layout Tour Fix From: Bruce Smith Lets see, if I got in the car now...I could be in Atlanta by 2:30 eastern... Delta flights are at 2 and 8 pm and USAir doesn't allow reservations less than 6 hours before a flight! Shoot!!! Oh well, it was a thought . Ciao, Bruce On Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 11:24 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > For those needing a mid-week layout tour fix, both Ken McCorry and > Paul Backenstose are open this evening. Both are located in > Downingtown, PA. Details on the Timetable page of Keystone Crossings. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 13:42:16 EST Subject: [PRR] LV at Metuchen --part1_17c.235f55c4.2ced1388_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks...some time ago I stumbled on some info about Camp Kilmer, which is hat I based my response on. I dont know where I read it, at the moment. However there was a discussion thread, in January and February, 2003, on the LV Perth Amboy line, which took place in the Lehigh Valley Forum, at Railroad.net. These are partial quotes, and none of the words are mine. I left out parts that pertained to Perth Amboy, Hopelawn, Fords, etc....("The line was originally double tracked with passenger service. It even had a tower, called VALLEY, located in Metuchen, which was built to accomodate Camp Kilmer, built in early 1942. A wye track went off to the Reading's Kilmer Branch, joining at LR Junction, which is now under Route 287 by Durham Woods apartments. Beleive it or not, even though the branch through there was long ago abandoned, the west leg of the wye still remains, as well as the switch that used to go to Premium Plastics. Further, in the woods, are small sections of the line that went off to Camp Kilmer. During WWII, there were some "fake" movements of troops to Perth Amboy, no doubt to fool our enemies")....... ("At Metuchen, the LV used to connect with the PRR. The bridge footings are still there. I used to watch the nightime freight from Perth Amboy to South Plainfield. Picture a single switcher pulling 30 or 40 cars of freight. The westbound went through about 8 PM and would return to Perth Amboy, going through Metuchen about 7 AM.") ........("If you can get across Woodbridge Ave. without being run down, you can continue on the ROW all the way to Metuchen where it curls through downtown and meets the NEC. The elevations for the old LV/PRR passenger connection are still visible parallel to the at-grade line that crosses Durham Ave. and then runs towards South Plainfield.")...I'll dig up more when I get the chance...Bill --part1_17c.235f55c4.2ced1388_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Folks...some time ago I stumbled on some info about Ca= mp Kilmer, which is hat I based my response on. I dont know where I re= ad it, at the moment. However there was a discussion thread, in Januar= y and February, 2003, on the LV Perth Amboy line, which took place in the Le= high Valley Forum, at Railroad.net. These are partial quotes, and none= of the words are mine. I left out parts that pertained to Perth Amboy= , Hopelawn, Fords, etc....("The line was originally double tracked with pass= enger service. It even had a tower, called VALLEY, located in Metuchen, whic= h was built to accomodate Camp Kilmer, built in early 1942. A wye track went= off to the Reading's Kilmer Branch, joining at LR Junction, which is now un= der Route 287 by Durham Woods apartments. Beleive it or not, even though the= branch through there was long ago abandoned, the west leg of the wye still=20= remains, as well as the switch that used to go to Premium Plastics. Further,= in the woods, are small sections of the line that went off to Camp Kilmer.=20= During WWII, there were some "fake" movements of troops to Perth Amboy, no d= oubt to fool our enemies")....... ("At Metuchen, the LV used to connect with= the PRR. The bridge footings are still there. I used to watch the nightime=20= freight from Perth Amboy to South Plainfield. Picture a single switcher pull= ing 30 or 40 cars of freight. The westbound went through about 8 PM and woul= d return to Perth Amboy, going through Metuchen about 7 AM.") ........("If y= ou can get across Woodbridge Ave. without being run down, you can continue o= n the ROW all the way to Metuchen where it curls through downtown and meets=20= the NEC. The elevations for the old LV/PRR passenger connection are still vi= sible parallel to the at-grade line that crosses Durham Ave. and then runs t= owards South Plainfield.")...I'll dig up more when I get the chance...Bill

--part1_17c.235f55c4.2ced1388_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Kr01a@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 14:01:20 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] LV at Metuchen If I had been a train fan on my return home from Korea in '52, I might now be able to contribute some first hand info on the Camp Kilmer discussion. A bunch of us were shipped from Seattle to Camp Kilmer in Dec. 1952 by train just in time to make it home two days before Christmas. As you can imagine, with other things on my mind, I have only very vague memories of Kilmer. We had passes over Christmas and then were discharged on 12/31/52 to reenter civilian life. I'm a new member of this list that grew up and later lived in various areas of the SW Philly suburbs (among lots of other places) and remember the B&O, PRR/PC and RDG from the time I was able to talk walks with my grandfather until I moved from the Malvern/Paoli area to Kansas City. I spent 1971 thru mid-1974 commuting on the MP54s and Metroliners from Paoli to Philly for further connections over to Somerdale, NJ. It was that commute that finally persuaded me to move to the Midwest (g) I still have a couple of the monthly PC trip tickets in a scrapbook. I enjoy the list info and did model the PRR in HO scale but not to the level of detail that I read so much about on here. Thanks for the enjoyment of being a bystander to so much information! Ed "Mac" MacDonald Kansas City, MO (which has lots of big trains still running) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 14:43:28 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Survey Q&A From: Jerry Britton With regard to the "7th Annual PRR Modelers Survey"... Several people have asked why I indicated to put MP54's under the "passenger rolling stock" category rather than under "electric locomotives". 1. I should have said "MP class" instead of "MP54" as there were a lot of varieties, plus the MP85's and others should have been included as well. I'll need to remember that for next year. 2. PRR original documentation places the MP classes in the "Passenger Car Roster". Furthermore, they do not appear in the "MP229", which is essentially a locomotive roster. The PRR considered them passenger rolling stock! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Wilkes-Barre branch questions Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 16:52:12 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 18 Nov, amato@mchsi.com wrote: > Bill V. also mentioned in a previous post that coal off AN-16 was sent from > Northumberland to Wilkes-Barre. Solid trains, or in the scheduled freights? Was this traffic flow happening earlier? I can't find AN-16 in the 1954 Arranged Freight. > Finally, any passenger ops? I assume that passenger trains on the branch would > have been dropped by 1960. Yeah, long gone. I think that the last passenger ops on the branch were between W-B and Philly via Nescopeck; I dug up an old newspaper article that mentioned this train. And that that ended before my era, 1954, as far as I can figure out. > Operation at Buttonwood Yard is really what got my attention. Seems quite > active, with the D&H and CNJ connections, plus run-throughs over to Hudson > yard. Plus, it's much more compact than Northumberland, so it may work out > better in the 12 feet I have allocated. Yes, Buttonwood has lots of through traffic, but also lots of trains pick up and drop blocks of local traffic as well, which gets classified. I'm going with Northumberland, Altoona, and Enola all in staging for much the same reasons. Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] P2k FA drive Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 16:13:30 -0600 Norm wrote-- > > This is an intersting comment that I found in one of Trains.com forums > regarding using P2K FA drives for repowering. > > I don't know if this was mentioned before since I am new to this forum but if > you have stewart RS-3 units the entire drive from the FA-2 loco's fits > perfect in the RS-3 and give you the correct trucks rather than the athearn > trucks , you may also use just the trucks and retain the athearn drive , I > used the entire drive from a few ruined brush painted loco's off of ebay , I > wanted them the run with the PK-2 units , this holds true for using the > motors in EMD units by athearn , the truck gearing is the same and is also > interchangable , even on the older AS-16's , by stewart . this makes a world > of difference in the loco's and the trucks can be purchased direct from > lifelike for 7 dollars a pair . > Hmmmm. I look at this problem an entirely different way. I don't care for the P2K drive (or Athearn either) so for the FA-2 I use the drive from an Atlas RS-3. Almost a drop in. For the FA-1 I use the motor and trucks from a Kato RS-2 and "dremel" the FA-1 frame. These FA's now really run right. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:44:25 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Wilkes-Barre branch questions --------------080304040305030704050307 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>Finally, any passenger ops? I assume that passenger trains on the branch would >>have been dropped by 1960. >> >> > >Yeah, long gone. I think that the last passenger ops on the >branch were between W-B and Philly via Nescopeck; I dug up >an old newspaper article that mentioned this train. And >that that ended before my era, 1954, as far as I can figure >out. > That's correct -- Wilkes-Barre to Philadelphia via this routing: PRR-Nescopeck- Tomhicken-LV(Hazleton)-New Boston Jct.-PRR-Pottsville-Reading-Pottstown-Phoenixville-Norristown-Philadelphia. There were two trains -- the Mountaineer and the Anthracite Express. The Anthracite Express left Wilkes-Barre in the morning and arrived in Philly early afternoon, then returned, leaving Philly late afternoon and arriving back in WB just before 11 pm. The Mountaineer was on the oppostie schedule -- it left Philly in the morning and got to Wilkes-Barre in mid-afternoon. It then left less than an hour later and arrived back in Philly a little before 10 pm. Service ended in August 1941. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. --------------080304040305030704050307 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Finally, any passenger ops? I assume that passenger trains on the branch would have been dropped by 1960.

Yeah, long gone. I think that the last passenger ops on the branch were between W-B and Philly via Nescopeck; I dug up an old newspaper article that mentioned this train. And that that ended before my era, 1954, as far as I can figure out.

That's correct -- Wilkes-Barre to Philadelphia via this routing: PRR-Nescopeck- Tomhicken-LV(Hazleton)-New Boston Jct.-PRR-Pottsville-Reading-Pottstown-Phoenixville-Norristown-Philadelphia.

There were two trains -- the Mountaineer and the Anthracite Express. The Anthracite Express left Wilkes-Barre in the morning and arrived in Philly early afternoon, then returned, leaving Philly late afternoon and arriving back in WB just before 11 pm. The Mountaineer was on the oppostie schedule -- it left Philly in the morning and got to Wilkes-Barre in mid-afternoon. It then left less than an hour later and arrived back in Philly a little before 10 pm.

Service ended in August 1941.

Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, Pa.

--------------080304040305030704050307-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:37:11 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] LV at Metuchen Hmm, a field investigation in the Metuchen area may be in order. As Bill noted, the Durham Woods apartment complex has obliterated the northern end of the RDG-PRR connection, but the southern segment might still exist, and who knows, along the LV ROW some evidence of a wye connecting RDG-LV (it would probably vanish into the Durham Woods apartments, or maybe under the I-287 right of way). The western end of the LV line, the end approaching the junction with the LV main line at South Plainfield, had track, at least about two years ago anyway. The track kind of disappears into the mud, I think well before reaching the bridge over the RDG. This is a very, umm, interesting area of New Jersey; there are streets that if you go down you will find lead to no exit in any direction, a bunch of people and junk yard dogs staring at you, and chain link fences surrounding the district -- outside of which are new condos and squeaky-clean industrial parks. I was in a commuter van pool about five years ago that tried a "short cut" through there and beat a hasty retreat. The bridge abutments for the Middlesex Ave bridge that carried the LV-PRR connection are certainly still in place. I guess we still don't know the main use of the connection, unless it was for Camp Kilmer. But I am pretty sure the PRR had its own line into Kilmer from the Edison area further west. Too bad Ed didn't have his eyes open when his troop train pulled in! Well, I guess soldiers have to grab sleep when they can! John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 20:32:54 EST Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg Electrified Bridge -------------------------------1069291974 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What was the name of the bridge in Harrisburg that allow electric locos to reach Enola Yard? Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ -------------------------------1069291974 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What was the name of the bridge in Harrisburg that allow electric locos= to reach Enola Yard?

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ
-------------------------------1069291974-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg Electrified Bridge Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 21:08:32 -0500 On Nov 19, 2003, at 8:32 PM, RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > What was the name of the bridge in Harrisburg that allow electric > locos to reach Enola Yard? It was the Cumberland Valley Branch and as far as I know was just called the Cumberland Valley Bridge. They had to go west beyond LEMO then backwards into Enola. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Wilkes-Barre branch questions Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 22:56:22 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 19 Nov, Dan Cupper wrote: > That's correct -- Wilkes-Barre to Philadelphia via this routing: > PRR-Nescopeck- Tomhicken-LV(Hazleton)-New Boston > Jct.-PRR-Pottsville-Reading-Pottstown-Phoenixville-Norristown-Philadelphia. > > There were two trains -- the Mountaineer and the Anthracite Express. The > Anthracite Express left Wilkes-Barre in the morning and arrived in > Philly early afternoon, then returned, leaving Philly late afternoon and > arriving back in WB just before 11 pm. The Mountaineer was on the > oppostie schedule -- it left Philly in the morning and got to > Wilkes-Barre in mid-afternoon. It then left less than an hour later and > arrived back in Philly a little before 10 pm. > > Service ended in August 1941. Thanks, Dan! I was kind of hoping to stretch these trains until 1954 at least, but maybe I can't talk myself into it. *sigh* Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 22:48:23 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Cold steamers in tow in Pennsy Power 2 Hello list, I went looking through Pennsy Power 2 last night, and found two photos of cold steamers in tow. On page 98, there's a photo of M1a 6715 coupled to what's probably a (live) H9s towing several cold steamers...hoppers are used as the spacer cars. Photo looks like it's from the 30s; M1a has footboards and marker lights on the smokebox. On page 271, there's a shot of three FF16s (FM C Liners) towing K4s 5444 (according to the caption) to the scrapyard. Doug __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Last PRR steam in Youngstown [E&A div] Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:43:10 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01C3AF53.180A7230 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you look through the Pennsy Diesel Years series, (Don't remember which Volume) you will see pictures I took at Altoona of the funeral trains leaving town. The dead steamers were interspersed with scrapper hopper cars. WDV -----Original Message----- From: Ken Nesbitt [mailto:ken.nesbitt@fbcs-inc.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 11:48 AM To: Paul Stumpff; PRR-Talk Subject: RE: [PRR] Last PRR steam in Youngstown [E&A div] " A lot of steamers were scrapped in the Mahoning and Shenango Valleys, of course they were towed there. " As a point of interest, would multible steamers be towed all at once, making up a train or would they just tack one on to a freight heading in that direction? It would make a sad but interesting picture of a new diesel towing lot of steamers to the scrapper Thanks Kenny -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Paul Stumpff Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 11:09 AM To: 'PRR-Talk' Subject: [PRR] Last PRR steam in Youngstown [E&A div] In this last Sunday's Vindicator [Youngstown, OH], the "50 Years Ago" section had a note that the PRR announced that it was fully converted to diesels in the Youngstown area [Nov. 16,1953]. Were the E&A, PY&A and Detour branches steam free from that date on, or were there ever instances of steam operated on them after 1953? A lot of steamers were scrapped in the Mahoning and Shenango Valleys, of course they were towed there. I know that the nearby E&P in Pennsylvania had steam until 1957. Paul S. in Geneva, OH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _____________________________________________________ This message scanned for viruses by CoreComm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01C3AF53.180A7230 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
If you=20 look through the Pennsy Diesel Years series, (Don't remember which = Volume) you=20 will see pictures I took at Altoona of the funeral trains leaving = town. =20 The dead steamers were interspersed with scrapper hopper=20 cars.

WDV

-----Original Message-----
From: Ken = Nesbitt=20 [mailto:ken.nesbitt@fbcs-inc.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November = 18, 2003=20 11:48 AM
To: Paul Stumpff; PRR-Talk
Subject: RE: = [PRR]=20 Last PRR steam in Youngstown [E&A div]

" A lot of steamers were scrapped in the Mahoning = and Shenango=20 Valleys,
of
course they were towed there. "

As a point of = interest, would multible steamers be towed all at once,
making up a = train=20 or would they just tack one on to a freight heading in
that=20 direction?   It would make a sad but interesting picture of = a=20 new
diesel towing lot of steamers to the=20 scrapper

Thanks

Kenny

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On = Behalf Of=20 Paul
Stumpff
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 11:09 AM
To:=20 'PRR-Talk'
Subject: [PRR] Last PRR steam in Youngstown [E&A=20 div]

In this last Sunday's Vindicator [Youngstown, OH], the = "50=20 Years Ago"
section had a note that the PRR announced that it was = fully=20 converted to

diesels in the Youngstown area [Nov. = 16,1953].

Were=20 the E&A, PY&A and Detour branches steam free from that date = on,=20 or
were there ever instances of steam operated on them after = 1953?

A=20 lot of steamers were scrapped in the Mahoning and Shenango Valleys,=20 of

course they were towed there.

I know that the nearby = E&P=20 in Pennsylvania had steam until 1957.

Paul S. in Geneva,=20 = OH

-------------------------------------------------------= ----------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

____= _________________________________________________
This=20 message scanned for viruses by=20 = CoreComm

-------------------------------------------------= ----------------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

<= /P>
------=_NextPart_000_0045_01C3AF53.180A7230-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 23:55:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] PRR-C&NW-UP Through Sleepers. Hello List, Can anyone tell me the names of UP's "Pacific" series (Budd 10-6) sleeper cars that were assigned to the PRR for New York to Los Angeles service PRIOR to 1952? I'm looking for car names in the two tone grey paint scheme. Thanks in advance, Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 01:56:11 EST Subject: [PRR] PS18 sleeper -------------------------------1069397771 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has this car or car sides for it ever been done in HO? I would like to model the City of Reading as shown in the book PRR Color Guide to Frt. and Pass. Equipment. Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ -------------------------------1069397771 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Has this car or car sides for it ever been done in HO? I w= ould like to model the City of Reading as shown in the book PRR Color Gu= ide to Frt. and Pass. Equipment.

Thank you,

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS 346
PRRT&= amp;HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ

-------------------------------1069397771-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:42:23 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PCL] PS18 sleeper Several of the car side makers (USP, Laser Horizons, brass car sides) have done 18 rmt cars. They were also the "standard" sleeper done by many of the very early HO passenger car mfrs (Blue Line, American Beauty, etc). Hang in there. With Walters doing so many of the other prewar standard Pullmans (4-4-2, 6-6-4, 10-5), I would not be surprised to see the 18 rmt. If you can't wait, try putting one of the after market sides on a Walthers car. Regards, Andrew S. Miller ======================================================= RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > Has this car or car sides for it ever been done in HO? I would like to > model the City of Reading as shown in the book PRR Color Guide to Frt. and Pass. > Equipment. > > Thank you, > > Evan Leisey > RCT&HS 346 > PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 > CNJ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:06:45 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Reminder -- Surveys Due Today by 5 PM From: Jerry Britton Reminder: The "7th Annual PRR Modelers Needs Survey" is due by 5 p.m. today. Turnout has been our best ever! Thank you to those who participated thus far. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 09:30:55 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Need Valuation Map -- Frederick Branch, York, Pa. From: Jerry Britton I'm looking for a valuation map of the Frederick Branch, in West York, specifically between S. Newberry Street and Carlisle Avenue. If you have access to one, please contact me. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: [PRR] Herron PRR DVD's Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 12:14:36 -0500 Making a list of DVD's for Santa. Cany anyone comment on the Herron PRR Steam & Diesel DVD's as to era covered and content/quality. I have their Pennsy Glory Vol. 3 and I am hoping they will also release Glory volumes 1 and 2 in DVD eventually. Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] 7th Annual Survey Results (LONG) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 22:02:40 -0500 IF RESPONDING, please do not include the original message! Here are the results of the 7th Annual "Keystone Crossings/PRR-Talk" Modeling Needs Survey! The results will be sent to several dozen model manufactuers. Each year a few of our highest ranking items are either produced or announced. This survey may or may not effect production. This year the survey went out to approximately 650 subscribers. We received 62 responses...nearly a 10% return. Thank you for your participation! Respondents were asked to list their top three desired models within each classification. Any additional entries within a classification were discarded. Products are in order of votes received WITHOUT consideration of multiple quantities desired per vote, though some are noted (one line of comment per vote). Those receiving an equal number of votes are in no particular order. Some of the answers were subject to interpretation. I did the best I could! Assume ready-to-run, plastic, dcc friendly (if powered), unless otherwise noted. ----------------------------------HO SCALE--------------------------------- STEAM LOCOMOTIVES (17) I1s/I1sa 1: w/90F82 tender BS: 2 (16) H9s BS: 3 (15) H10s (10) L1s BS: 3 (8) H6sb [Probably should have broken out by subclass] DW: H6b HF: H6s (6) H8 (4) Q2 (4) S1/S2 (4) D class [Probably should have broken out by subclass] DW: D14 not super heated DW: D16 not super heated DK: D16sb (3) E6 (3) J1/J1a [Already announced by Broadway Limited Imports) (2) K4s Streamlined (2) C1 (2) E5 (2) G5s (2) M1 1: w/210F82 tender DK: w/130P75 tender (1) N2sa (1) K4s (1) B6sb [Bowser ?] (1) N1s (1) N2s (1) HH-1 [Previously released by Life Like] ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVES (25) P5 series [WOW, can't someone take a hint!!!] BS: 5-10 (14) E44 BC: Multiple BS: 2 (6) B1 "Rat" (4) DD1 (3) GG1 (in proper paint] DK: w/fixed pilot to represent early versions (1) DD2 (1) FF1 (1) R1 (1) O1 DIESEL LOCOMOTIVES (12) BF15/16 (Baldwin DR 4-4-15/RF16 "Shark") 1: Several sets (11) BP60/BH50 (Baldwin DR 12-8-30 "Centipede" AA set) CC: 2 sets (8) BP20 (Baldwin DR 6-4-20 "Passenger Shark") (7) BS24 (Baldwin RT624 "Center Cab") (6) FS20 (FM H-20-44) (5) AF24 (Alco RS-27) (4) EFP15 (EMD FP7) SH: 2-4 (3) EP20 (EMD E7) [Proto re-run] (2) FS12 (FM H-12-44) (2) FS24m (FM H-24-66 "Trainmaster") (2) AS10 (Alco T6) (2) AS16 (Alco RS3) (2) LS25 (Lima T2500) (2) GF25a (GE U25C) (1) EF30 (EMD SD40) (1) FS10 (FM H-10-44) (1) AF15/16 (Alco FA/B1 / FA/B2) (1) EF15 (EMD F3) (1) EP22 (EMD E8) [Proto re-run] (1) ____ (DL600b) FREIGHT ROLLING STOCK (9) H30/H30a SH: 4-5 (8) G31 (4) K7/K7a AM: 6 (4) K8 AM: 6 (4) GLc/GLca Hopper (4) X29d RO: 6+ (3) G36 (3) H25 RO: 10+ BS: 5 (2) F22 (2) F41 (2) G41 (2) FGEX/BREX/WFEX Reefers [Coming from InterMountain] (1) F30d Truc Train Flats (1) F33 (1) GG (1) GLa (1) G22 (1) G27 (1) G34 (1) G37 (1) G44 (1) H32 (1) H33 (1) H35 SH: 12 (1) XH (1) XL (1) X23 (1) X26c (1) X28/X28a (1) X29 w/patch plates (1) X29b RO: 10+ AM: 4 (1) X29f or X29g (1) X31 (1) X40b (1) X41a (1) X58 (1) Any steel gondola (1) More and better flat cars (1) Ore cars (1) Express cars [too vague] (1) Turtle roof box cars (1) Heavy duty flats (1) Any large flat cars (1) Well flat PASSENGER ROLLING STOCK (INC. MP-SERIES) (14) MP54 series [Seems like a "no brainer" to me!] BC: Multiple BS: 6-8 AM: 5 (7) MP85 series BC: Multiple (5) B60b [Coming!] (5) B70/B70a (3) P70 (3) PS106 (2) BM70 (2) BM70k (2) BM70m (2) P54 Coaches (2) PB54 (2) P85b (wants Centralia car in kit form) (2) X42 Mail Storage Car (2) Heavyweight Parlors (2) Heavyweight Sleepers (2) Keystone cars (2) D78 (1) B70 (1) B74 (1) BM60 (1) BM70ka (1) BM85 (1) D85c/D85d Twin Unit Diners (1) M70b (1) PS13 (1) PS18 (1) PS124 (1) PS21a (1) PS21b (1) POS21a CC: METROPOLITAN VIEW (1) POS211 (1) P70fbr (1) P70k (1) P70g (1) P82r (1) P85a (1) Heavyweight Tail Cars (1) 4666 style gas electric (1) Pullmans in two-tone grey (1) Congo coaches AM: 9 (1) Balance of Congo train set (obs, 2 unit diner, DR car, coffee shop) (1) Wooden Open Vestibule Coaches (1) Wooden Open Vestibule Combines (1) An accurate coach [Hello! Centralia?] (1) An accurate sleeper (1) An accurate observation (1) Lounge Cars [Too vague, really] NON-REVENUE ROLLING STOCK (14) N6b Cabin Car DW: 18 (3) XL Camp Cars (3) Snow Plows RO: Double-track Russel BZ: Double-track Russel (2) Scale Test Car (2) TM8 (2) NX23 (2) N6a Cabin Car (2) N8 Cabin Car [Already announced by Bowser] (2) GPa BS: 2-3, brass okay (2) GP Ballast Car (2) G26s Turnout-Hauling Gondola (2) Clearance Car (1) N5c Cabin Car (corrected) (1) Brownhoist Ballast Cleaner (1) Tower Car BS: brass okay (1) Jordan Spreader (1) XL Flanger (1) YB (1) U4 (1) GXL (1) H21L Ballast Hopper (1) Elec. Maintenance Cars (converted Brill car) (1) Heavy Crane Car STRUCTURES (13) Interlocking tower LEMO, JACKS, COLA, HUNT, ALTO, MG (6) Medium sized passenger station Rochester PA, Marysville, Elizabethtown, Kittanning Point (4) Section House/Tool House (4) Watchman's Shanty (3) Lines West wood sheathed interlocking tower (3) Lines West wood or masonry station (3) Coal Wharf Denholm, Thorndale (2) Coaling Tower South Amboy, Enola (1) Freight Station (1) Scale House w/Beam Pit (1) Icing structure (1) Engine House DK: South Amboy (1) Sanding tower (1) Steel water tanks 25,000, 35000, 50000, 75000 and 100000 gals OTHER (4) Dwarf Signal (3) Whistle Posts (2) Position Light Signals (2) Lines West Four Track Signal Bridge [Coming from Oregon Rail Supply] (2) 110P75a Tender (2) Catenary Parts [Model Memories ?] (1) Speed Limit Signs (1) 1950's International pickup (1) Division Posts (1) MoW Tenders (1) Early Piggyback Trailers (1) 40' TrucTrain Trailers [Available from Bethlehem Car Works as kit] BC: Multiple (1) Switch Targets (1) Molds for casting stone arch bridges (1) Blank Standard Signs (towers, stations, etc.) [I had suggested this to Alkem Scale Models years ago!] (1) Telltale (1) Rock molds for central/western Pennsylvania (1) Four Track Signal Bridge [Coming from Alkem Scale Models] (1) 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 track signal bridges in plastic buy making the uprights and horizontal sections separate parts any width can be made with one set of molds by joining horizontal sections (1) Block station lights (1) Train order lights (1) Details (1) Water plugs and track pans (1) 130P75a Tender (1) Accurate passenger trucks for heavyweights (1) Bowser mechanism for L1s, to put under Bachmann K4s shell (1) Book of consist info for non-Main Line trains (i.e.,570/571;574/575;580/581) (1) Conversion boiler to create an N2sa 2-10-2 from the Bowser USRA heavy 2-10-2...and the 12,000 gallon USRA tender to go with it. (1) Conversion boiler to create a K2s/K2sa/K3s from Bowser's K4s chassis (1) Pipe fence stanchions in plastic (1) "Fleet of Modernism" Decals [Already available] (1) Tug Boat (1) Platform Lights (1) Leowy Trash Can [Gotta love it!] (1) Baldwin sound decoder (1) Alco 2nd Generation sound decoder (1) QSI sound decoder as a separate product (1) Post-war passenger car roof top antenna I have to add this submission for comic relief... "Additional Category: PAINT: 1. An officially blessed and sanctified DGLE model paint ready to spray from the bottle and safe guarded by thorough testing and measurement by the Pennsy Historical Society and guaranteed not to bring threats unto death to any person if used as directed. Each bottle of paint should be accompanied by a drift card that's use is mandatory thereby directing the user who shall destroy the paint on site when a color drift miss-match has been discovered during use." ----------------------------------N SCALE---------------------------------- STEAM LOCOMOTIVES (6) K4s [10 versions announced by Key -- brass though] DK: 110P75a Tender (6) H9s (4) M1a/M1b (3) B6/B6sb (3) E6 (3) I1 class (3) L1s (2) G5 [coming!] (1) K5 (1) A3 (1) A5 (1) B8a (1) C1 (1) D16sb (1) H6sc (1) H10s (1) S1 (1) S2 (1) F3c ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVES (9) P5 series JB: 6 (8) GG1 [4 versions announced by Key -- brass though] JB: 8 (4) B1 "Rat" JB: 3 (4) E44 (2) L5a (1) DD2 DIESEL LOCOMOTIVES (6) BP60/BH50 (Baldwin DR 12-8-30 "Centipede") (4) GS4 (GE 44 Ton) (3) BS24 (Baldwin/Lima RT624 "Center Cab") (2) BP20 (Baldwin DR 6-4-20 "Passenger Shark") (2) EF15 (EMD F3) (2) ES6 (EMD SW1) JB: 2 (2) BS12 (Baldwin S12) (1) EF15a (EMD F7) (1) AF25 (Alco RS27) (1) AS10a (Alco T-6) (1) Any Baldwin Roadswitcher (1) LS25m (Lima T-2500) (1) AS24m (Alco RSD15) (1) GF25a (GE U25C) (1) A6 [Probably mean AS6, Alco S1/S3] (1) ____ (____ AS416) [???] FREIGHT ROLLING STOCK (5) GLa Hopper JB: 96 (4) K7a Stock Car BM: 8 JB: 60 (4) F30d TrucTrain Flat Car w/24' or 26' Trailers JB: 48 (3) H30 Hoppers (3) G38/39 Ore Car (2) K9 Stock Car (1) H31c Hoppers (1) H32 Hoppers (1) H39 Hoppers (1) K8 Stock Car (1) K11 Stock Car BM: 4 (1) GLca Hopper (1) G22 (1) G41a Gondolas (1) XL Box Car (1) X23 Box Car (1) X29b/X29c/X29d Rebuilt Box Cars (1) X31/X32 Box Cars (1) X31f "Turtle Roof" Box Cars (1) X43/X43a/X43 Box Cars (1) FD2 Heavy Duty Flat Car (1) Bi-Level Auto Rack BM: 8 PASSENGER ROLLING STOCK (INC. MP-SERIES) (8) MP54 series (5) PS21b JB: 12 (4) R50b Express Reefer JB: 10 (4) BM70m JB: 8 (4) Any P70 Coach 1: w/Porthole Windows (2) MP85 series (1) POC85r (1) Heavyweights (1) Lightweights (1) "Trail Blazer" train set (1) P85 Coach [Already available] NON-REVENUE ROLLING STOCK (6) N6b Cabin Car (3) N8 Cabin Car (2) Y4 Scale Test Car (2) Wire Car (2) Jordan Spreader (1) ND Cabin Car (1) Clearance Car (1) Z74 Business Car "PENNSYLVANIA" or "HARRISBURG" (1) Ballast Car (1) X29 Converted Flanger (1) MoW Passenger Car Conversions (1) Dinky Crane w/Outriggers (1) Industrial Brownhoist ballast cleaner with clams (1) 150 Ton Steam Crane STRUCTURES (11) Towers ALTO, MG (4), UN, AR, MO (4), ROCKVILLE (3), BANKS, VIEW, HARRIS (3), CASE (6) Stations Lancaster, Columbus, Marysville (2) Bridges (1) Coal Tower [Walthers new HO version downsized] (1) Roundhouse and Turntable [Walthers new HO version downsized] OTHER (5) Catenary Towers and Parts (3) Working Position Light Signals [Coming from Alkem Scale Models] (2) Greyhound Bus (1) MoW Vehicles (1950's, 1960's) (1) Better selection of passenger decals (1) Details -- pot signals, pneumatic switches, etc. (1) Trainphone antennas for diesels with illustrations for placement (1) Digitrax Duplex Throttle w/PRR Cab Indicators (1) Water cranes/plugs (1) Tower/station signs w/o names [I suggested this to Alkem over a year ago!] (1) Passenger Platform Lights ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 08:16:35 -0800 (PST) From: CHUCK S Subject: [PRR] r-50b what paint was used on hand grabs to match this car---tia __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 15:24:34 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3B06D.79FF6390 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Listers, Since the list has been quiet, I'll throw this out. Walther's has announce a Santa Fe Super Chief with a ABBA set of special number Athearn Genesis F units. Will they do a PRR train (the Broadway, Congo) and what will pull it P2000 E's, BLI G? Chris Chany ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3B06D.79FF6390 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Listers,

Since the list has been quiet, I'll throw this = out. Walther's has announce a Santa Fe Super Chief with a ABBA = set of special number Athearn Genesis F units. Will they do a PRR = train (the Broadway, Congo) and what will pull it P2000 E's, BLI = G?

Chris Chany
------_=_NextPart_001_01C3B06D.79FF6390-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 15:14:07 -0800 (PST) From: MICHAEL MERCURE Subject: [PRR] Walthers R50b Could someone please tell me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] 7th Survey Comments - HO Scale Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 22:12:01 -0500 It's amazing the result Broadway Limited Imports has had on the HO portion of the survey. With M1's, T1's, and J1's announced, what had been somewhat level voting now really screams for a few specific models, most notably the I1's. And two variants of the H class follow with very strong interest. Demand for P5 series electrics has not only been maintained, but it has increased from 18 votes to 25 votes, nearly double the second place electric. Another "no brainer" for some manufacturer. Centipedes are still pretty strong, though interest in freight sharks has sparked. Interest in early stock cars (K7/K8) has maintained, though the H30 has suddenly shot up the ranks. MP54 ranks significantly at the top of the passenger list, as does the N6b in the Non-Rev category. These are both consistent with last year, with a bit of a jump for the MP54's. Lots of interest in towers, but no commonality. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Listmaster Subject: [PRR] List Mail Delay Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 09:36:53 -0500 Last night a subscriber inquired as to whether or not my lists were down. I replied that they were not. However, I did look into it further, and determined that there was an issue. My listserv receives and sends its traffic via my mail server. The listserv had indeed been processing everything. The mail server performs DNS lookups in order to resolve recipient addresses. There was a problem with our upstream DNS and a lot of the mail was, in fact, backing up in the mail server queue. This morning I aimed our DNS to a different upstream DNS and now everything is pushing through and catching up, so you likely will have a flood of list mail. To complicate matters, Jim Six either made a new list, or changed settings on an existing list, and now also uses "[PRR]" as a subject prefix. I will contact Jim about perhaps changing that. I've been using it since 1996. While there certainly isn't any "right" to it's use, it would be a courtesy for him to use something else. Nothing to get in a huff about, however. ---------------------------------------- Listmaster listmaster@dsop.com Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 10:03:11 EST Subject: [PRR] PS18 Sleeper -------------------------------1069513391 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRR List, Thanks for the help on this car. Doing a little further reading it appears there were 142 of these built but the text is unclear if these were all for the Pennsy or total built? If all for the Pennsy, then I have no idea of how vast the Pennsy's pass. system was. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ -------------------------------1069513391 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
PRR List,

  Thanks for the help on this car. Doing a little furth= er reading it appears there were 142 of these built but the text is unclear=20= if these were all for the Pennsy or total built? If all for the Pennsy= , then I have no idea of how vast the Pennsy's pass. system was.

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ
-------------------------------1069513391-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers Passenger Train Sets Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 11:36:54 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004C_01C3B0EC.EE085600 Content