From: "John Bruce" Subject: Re: [PRR] dwarf signals Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 07:29:40 -0700 A dwarf signal, if this is your general question, is an absolute signal used to control low-speed movements within an interlocking or yard limit. Someone else will have to explain why some have multiple indications. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 5:39 PM Subject: [PRR] dwarf signals > Friends: > > When I was a youngster, I remember seeing a three light, two position dwarf > signal near the station at Lancaster, PA. Since then, I don't believe I have > seen any. Where were these signals usually located, what was their purpose > and what did the positions indicate. Some of the illustrations I have seen > of dwarf signals showed what looked like three aspects, vertical, diagonal > up to the right and horizontal, using four lights. > Lew > > > > > How long a minute is depends on what side of the bathroom door you're on. > > Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Waste Management and Energy > Systems. Advocating water for life through sustainable agriculture, > sustainable toilets, sustainable gray water systems and sustainable green > construction. > Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O., B.O.C.A.I. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 13:52:40 EDT Subject: [PRR] Items for Sale --part1_137.20555509.2c0b9768_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0 I have the following items for sale. Please contact OFF list wi= th the=20 above subject with questions. Prices DO NOT incl shp. I do work out of town=20= so=20 responses may not be right away. PRR CT 1000E Nov 1,1923-Very good cond=A0=A0 $ 100 PRR CT 1000E May 1,1945-Very good cond, $ 30 PRR Loco Test Plant Book No.21 for Class E6=A0 $20 PRR Station Plan Book,Copy of 1907 book,71 stations E. of Pgh, a front view, =A0 a cross sect. view & shows location, 8 towers, sig bridges-2 thru 8 trac= ks=20 =A0 wide. 90 pgs, 8-1/2 x11=A0 $25=20 PRR Middle Division Interlocking Plants, Copy of 1914-1917 plans,Banks to=20 Slope, =A0 Hollidaysburg Br,Morison Cove Br, 50 pgs,8-1/2 x 14=A0=A0 $25=A0=20 PRR Map of 1881 MainLine from Alt. to Johnstown,Alleg. Portage RR & inclines= , =A0 New Portage Br,Blue print copied from original linen.=A0 $9 PRR Mine Card & Revenue Waybill,has 3 copies with carbon paper=A0 $2 PRR Pocket calenders-1957 & 1960=A0 $ 6 PRR Land Book of 1890 for South West Pennsylvania RailWay=A0 $400 PRR CT1515 Qualification Card-New,never issued=A0 $6 PRR MW200 Machinery Qualification Card- New,never issued=A0 $5 PRR MW52(D) Manual of Instructions for MW Equip. NO COVER,=20 =A0=A0 dated 1-1-60,very good cond.=A0 $35 PRR Demurrage Card-pad, unused=A0 $5 PRR Application for Position-Pad of 100 unused,for bidding on jobs=A0 $5 PRR Deposit Slip book-Pad,unused=A0 $5 PRR Annual Report-1930 $30 PRR Annual Report-1945=A0 $25 PRR Annual Reports-1953,58=A0 $12 PRR Annual Reports-1952,55,59,60,61,62=A0 $15 PRR 1st Annual Report 1848 (1894 reprint)Front cover loose,pages brittle=A0=20= $50 =A0=20 PRR Cent. Reg.ETT No.4, 10-27-67,Good used cond,has all G.O.'s=A0 $20 PRR Storage stamps for baggage-full book of 100 - 5 cents, 35 cents, =A0 75 cents=A0 $10 ea.bk=20 PRR Leather Conductors wallet (well used)name still visible $5 PRR 25 year Bronze service pin=A0 $30 PRR ConCor, Ltd. Ed., Keystone Psgr set,Erie builts,Hwt cars w/keystones new,not run,engines tested only $ 250=20 PC Leather conductors Wallet-Good cond=A0 $18 PC CT-225-G Haz. Mtl. Reg-plastic cover,good cond=A0 $12 PC 1969 Annual Report-Fair cond-water mark=A0 $5 PC POST employee magizine,various issues but not all=A0 $4 PC MW1-New Unused=A0 $ 16 PC MW4-Used but excellent cond,field notes on some pages,1section=20 =A0 for inspection,1 section for construction=A0=A0 $20=20 PC Conductor & Trainman Hat Badges=A0=A0 $40 PC Lapel pins for Cond. & Trainman uniform=A0 $40 CR C&S Signal plans,Blue CR logo on cover,NEW,not issued $125 =20 CR Lapel pins for Cond. & Trainman uniform=A0=A0 $40 CR First Aid Kit-New,unused,Large square metal case with red Conrail & logo= =A0=20 $40 CR Hardhat-MW-New,unused,1 safari style=A0 $18, 2 reg style=A0 $15 ea. CR Annual Report-1987=A0 $12 CR MW-4,NEW,never used,has a couple of small rub marks across logo =A0=A0 but other wise excellent.=A0 $30 Pullman Brass Car Door handles-From Heavyweight PRR Sleepers,old former camp =A0=A0 cars,some dinges and dents mostly to door knob,latch moves,heavy=A0 $= 40=A0=20 Great Northern Atlas N scale FA1 (2 units)-older stock,not run,tested only= =A0=20 $55pr EL ETT #4=A0 2-24-74=A0 $15 Thank you. Pat McKinney --part1_137.20555509.2c0b9768_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List
=A0=A0=A0=A0 I have the following items for sale. Please contact OFF list wi= th the above subject with questions. Prices DO NOT incl shp. I do wor= k out of town so responses may not be right away.


PRR CT 1000E Nov 1,1923-Very good cond=A0=A0 $ 100
PRR CT 1000E May 1,1945-= Very good cond,  $ 3= 0
PRR Loco Test Plant Book No.21 for Class E6=A0 $20=
PRR Station Plan Book,Copy of 1907 book,71 stations E. of Pgh, a fron= t view,
=A0 a cross sect. view & shows location, 8 towers, sig bridges-2 thru 8=20= tracks
=A0 wide. 90 pgs, 8-1/2 x11=A0 $25
PRR Middle Division Interlocking Plants, Copy of 1914-1917 plans,Banks to Sl= ope,
=A0 Hollidaysburg Br,Morison Cove Br, 50 pgs,8-1/2 x 14=A0=A0 $25=A0
PRR Map of 1881 MainLine from Alt. to Johnstown,Alleg. Portage RR & incl= ines,
=A0 New Portage Br,Blue print copied from original linen.=A0 $9
PRR Mine Card & Revenue Waybill,has 3 copies with carbon paper=A0 $2
PRR Pocket calenders-1957 & 1960=A0 $ 6
PRR Land Book of 1890 for South West Pennsylvania RailWay=A0 $400
PRR CT1515 Qualification Card-New,never issued=A0 $6<= /B>
PRR MW200 Machinery Qualification Card- New,never issued=A0 $5
PRR MW52(D) Manual of Instructions for MW Equip. NO COVER,
=A0=A0 dated 1-1-60,very good cond.=A0 $35
PRR Demurrage Card-pad, unused=A0 $5
PRR Application for Position-Pad of 100 unused,for bidding on jobs=A0 $5
PRR Deposit Slip book-Pad,unused=A0 $5
PRR Annual Report-1930 $3= 0
PRR Annual Report-1945=A0 $25
PRR Annual Reports-1953,58=A0 $12
PRR Annual Reports-1952,55,59,60,61,62=A0 $15
PRR 1st Annual Report 1848 (1894 reprint)Front cover loose,pages brittle=A0=20= $50=A0
PRR Cent. Reg.ETT No.4, 10-27-67,Good used cond,has all G.O.'s=A0 $20
PRR Storage stamps for baggage-full book of 100 - 5 cents, 35 cents,
=A0 75 cents=A0 $10 ea.bk =
PRR Leather Conductors wallet (well used)name still visible $5
PRR 25 year Bronze service pin=A0 $30
PRR ConCor, Ltd. Ed., Keystone Psgr set,Erie builts,Hwt cars w/keystones
   new,not run,engines tested only  $ 250
PC Leather conductors Wallet-Good cond=A0 $18
PC CT-225-G Haz. Mtl. Reg-plastic cover,good cond=A0 $12
PC 1969 Annual Report-Fair cond-water mark=A0 $5
PC POST employee magizin= e,various issues but not all=A0 $4
PC MW1-New Unused=A0 $ 16=
PC MW4-Used but excellent cond,field notes on some pages,1section
=A0 for inspection,1 section for construction=A0=A0 $20
PC Conductor & Trainman Hat Badges=A0=A0 $40<= BR> PC Lapel pins for Cond. & Trainman uniform=A0 $40=
CR C&S Signal plans,Blue CR logo on cover,NEW,not issued $125 
CR Lapel pins for Cond. & Trainman uniform=A0=A0 $40
CR First Aid Kit-New,unused,Large square metal case with red Conrail & l= ogo=A0 $40
CR Hardhat-MW-New,unused,1 safari style=A0 $18, 2= reg style=A0 $15 = ea.
CR Annual Report-1987=A0 = $12
CR MW-4,NEW,never used,has a couple of small rub marks across logo
=A0=A0 but other wise excellent.=A0 $30
Pullman Brass Car Door handles-From Heavyweight PRR Sleepers,old former camp=
=A0=A0 cars,some dinges and dents mostly to door knob,latch moves,heavy=A0 <= /FONT>$40=A0
Great Northern Atlas N scale FA1 (2 units)-older stock,not run,tested only= =A0 $55pr
EL ETT #4=A0 2-24-74=A0 $= 15

Thank you.
Pat McKinney

 --part1_137.20555509.2c0b9768_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 14:27:44 -0400 Subject: [PRR] For Sale: Signed Phillip Hastings Books From: Jerry @ Pennsy Merchandise Service has a limited supply of the following book, signed by the author, Douglas Nelson... "Philip R. Hastings: Portrait of the Pennsylvania Railroad" by PRRT&HS member Douglas Nelson and Published by Pine Tree Press. The genius of Philip R. Hastings is captured in this 128-page, museum quality, duo-tone black & white book featuring 145 superb Pennsy images of steam, diesel, and electric. Hastings made repeated trips to the railroad in the 1950s, capturing its landscape in broad strokes, defining its character and embracing its people. Smyth-sewn, cloth covers, 100 lb. paper, maps, index, 128 pages. This book regularly sells for $49.95 but is now available, signed, for $42. Offer limited to quantities on hand. This is one of the best, if not THE BEST, black and white photo book ever done on the Pennsylvania Railroad. Hastings work appeared regularly in TRAINS magazine during the 1950's. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 18:58:42 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] dwarf signals Looking at a rule book (sorry, don't have a _real_ PRR rulebook handy; this is PC, Rules for CT 4/28/68); the only dwarf signal indications shown are: Two vertical lamps. Name: Slow-clear Two horizontal lamps: Name: Stop. Two diagonal lamps (NE to SW): Name: Slow-approach Two diagonal lamps (NW to SE): Name: Restricting. Where there any other indications that could be displayed by dwarf signals? If all four of these indications were possible, the signal would have four lamps, I suppose. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 19:16:32 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] dwarf signals --part1_1f1.a01ee22.2c0be350_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John & List. Some locations did not require the slow-approach signal so the lite in the middle would be blanked out. Pat McKinney --part1_1f1.a01ee22.2c0be350_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John & List.
        Some locations did not require th= e slow-approach signal so the lite in the middle would be blanked out.

Pat McKinney --part1_1f1.a01ee22.2c0be350_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 20:01:06 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] S Scale F7 set Hi All, I thought I would post a few quick photos of my S Helper Service S Scale F7 A B A set. I still have to put the decoders in, and touch up the weathering. Then they will be done! Enjoy! http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/S_Scale_F7_1.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/S_Scale_F7_2.jpg Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] S Scale F7 set Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 20:17:19 -0400 Bill: Very nice! Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Lane" To: "PRR Talk" ; "PRR Modeling" ; "S Trains" ; "S Scale List" Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 8:01 PM Subject: [PRR] S Scale F7 set > Hi All, > > I thought I would post a few quick photos of my S Helper Service S Scale F7 > A B A set. I still have to put the decoders in, and touch up the weathering. > Then they will be done! > > Enjoy! > > http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/S_Scale_F7_1.jpg > http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/S_Scale_F7_2.jpg > > Thanks > Bill > - a > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 21:10:15 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] dwarf signals Pat said, Some locations did not require the slow-approach signal so the lite in the middle would be blanked out. +++++++ The illustrations in my timetable suggest that you only need three lamps for three indications (below, "O" indicates lighted lamp, and "x" indicates unlighted:) Slow clear: O x O Slow approach: O O x Stop: x O O Presumably Restricting would require a fourth lamp: O x x O Additional question: were there dwarfs that didn't have a slow approach but did show Restricting, like this: O x O This also raises the question of whether the curved portion of the target was on the right (for the hypothetical signal just above), different from the first two, which would have the curved portion on the left (which is all that is shown in my rule book). John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 21:39:53 EDT Subject: [PRR] Haltoona --part1_17e.1b91b13f.2c0c04e9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For the second time on this list, I have seen the name Haltoona used with respect to passenger car repairs. Is there such a place or shop or is this a humorous way of pronouncing Altoona?? Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 --part1_17e.1b91b13f.2c0c04e9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   For the second time on this list, I have seen t= he name Haltoona used with respect to passenger car repairs.  Is there=20= such a place or shop or is this a humorous way of pronouncing Altoona??

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346 --part1_17e.1b91b13f.2c0c04e9_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 20:03:57 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] dwarf signals --- bobsin@nac.net wrote: > This also raises the question of whether the curved portion of the > target was on the right (for the hypothetical signal just above), > different from the first two, which would have the curved portion > on the left (which is all that is shown in my rule book). It runs in my mind that both kinds existed, that one kind was introduced later than the other. Once the newer kind came into use, the older type was no longer installed but did continue in use where installed. I think the matter was kicked around on this list some time ago. Perhaps a visit to the list archive at kc.pennsyrr.com a/k/a Jerry's Site and search on "dwarf" would turn something up? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Laurie Cooper" Subject: Re: [PRR] dwarf signals Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 20:08:03 -0700 My understanding is that the original dwarfs had the rounded part on the right side, allowing stop, slow-approach, and slow-clear to pivot around the same bulb (lower left) as a semaphore dwarf would. Restricting was then the long diagonal. Then I believe for clearance reasons, the rounded part was moved to the left side, so that stop, restricting, and slow clear would pivot around the lower right bulb, with slow approach on the long diagonal. As for dwarfs with only 3 bulbs, I would think it would be unusual for a dwarf to be able to display slow-approach and slow-clear, and not need to also display restricting. I would think it would be even more unusual for a dwarf to be able to display slow-clear and restricting and not slow-approach. Most likely for a 3 bulbed dwarf would probably be just stop and restricting. John -----Original Message----- From: bobsin@nac.net To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Sunday, June 01, 2003 6:10 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] dwarf signals Pat said, Some locations did not require the slow-approach signal so the lite in the middle would be blanked out. +++++++ The illustrations in my timetable suggest that you only need three lamps for three indications (below, "O" indicates lighted lamp, and "x" indicates unlighted:) Slow clear: O x O Slow approach: O O x Stop: x O O Presumably Restricting would require a fourth lamp: O x x O Additional question: were there dwarfs that didn't have a slow approach but did show Restricting, like this: O x O This also raises the question of whether the curved portion of the target was on the right (for the hypothetical signal just above), different from the first two, which would have the curved portion on the left (which is all that is shown in my rule book). John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ARRJERRY@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 23:15:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] dwarf signals --part1_b4.1dbba0f5.2c0c1b42_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would really like to add dwarf signals to my yard approach. Does anyone know of a model/kit in HO of the PRR type? Thank you, Jerry --part1_b4.1dbba0f5.2c0c1b42_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would really like to add dwarf signals to my yard ap= proach. Does anyone know of a model/kit in HO of the PRR type?
Thank you,
         Jerry --part1_b4.1dbba0f5.2c0c1b42_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 23:24:37 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: dwarf signals John, From what I have read on the subject, it appears that the dwarf with the curve on the right side is an older design than that with the curve on the left. The reason for the change may have been to provide increased clearance for larger equipment. Either housing shape can display all 4 aspects, but different lamp combinations are used for the right and left diagonals. Steve Bartlett John Bobsin wrote: Some locations did not require the slow-approach signal so the lite in the middle would be blanked out. .... This also raises the question of whether the curved portion of the target was on the right (for the hypothetical signal just above), different from the first two, which would have the curved portion on the left (which is all that is shown in my rule book). John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 23:47:15 -0400 From: Dave McNeil Subject: [PRR] FA Pennsy Power 2 I have an autographed copy of Al Stauffers Pennsy Power II for auction on Ebay at http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2177271856&category=4132&rd=1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 23:53:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: dwarf signals List, I own a PRR dwarf signal. It is a US&S PL-1 type with the access doors on the sides and the slope is on the right side. It can show four aspects. I'm in the process of sand blasting off 70 years of paint. And yes ,it does work. Also found a signal expert who can build relays to lite signals and have the aspects change every 10 mins. or what ever you want. I was lucky to find this one with all the wiring,bulbs, and lenses in good condition. I had been seaching for a dwarf for years. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: dwarf signals Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 07:21:40 -0400 Dave, All you need now are six more, and a poisiton light signal to complete the set. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Haltoona Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 07:58:30 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C328DC.C1E1C220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MessageAs in BEEutiful, Phildelfya, and Igles??=20 Tom Mahon formerly of Mt Ephraim, NJ=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Volkmer=20 To: RDG2124@aol.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 8:06 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Haltoona THAT's the way the Station Announcer at North Philadelphia pronounced = it, so that's the way Philadelphians pronounce it! WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of = RDG2124@aol.com Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 9:40 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Haltoona For the second time on this list, I have seen the name Haltoona = used with respect to passenger car repairs. Is there such a place or = shop or is this a humorous way of pronouncing Altoona?? Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C328DC.C1E1C220 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
As in BEEutiful, Phildelfya, and = Igles??=20
 
Tom Mahon
formerly of Mt Ephraim, NJ =
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bill Volkmer
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 = 8:06 AM
Subject: RE: [PRR] = Haltoona

THAT's the way the Station Announcer at North Philadelphia = pronounced=20 it, so that's the way Philadelphians pronounce it!
 
WDV
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of RDG2124@aol.com
Sent: = Sunday,=20 June 01, 2003 9:40 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject:=20 [PRR] Haltoona

  For the second = time on this=20 list, I have seen the name Haltoona used with respect to passenger = car=20 repairs.  Is there such a place or shop or is this a humorous = way of=20 pronouncing Altoona??

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346 =
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C328DC.C1E1C220-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Haltoona Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 08:06:12 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D6_01C328DD.D64B7A20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit THAT's the way the Station Announcer at North Philadelphia pronounced it, so that's the way Philadelphians pronounce it! WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of RDG2124@aol.com Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 9:40 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Haltoona For the second time on this list, I have seen the name Haltoona used with respect to passenger car repairs. Is there such a place or shop or is this a humorous way of pronouncing Altoona?? Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 ------=_NextPart_000_00D6_01C328DD.D64B7A20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
THAT's=20 the way the Station Announcer at North Philadelphia pronounced it, so = that's the=20 way Philadelphians pronounce it!
 
WDV
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of=20 RDG2124@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 9:40=20 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR]=20 Haltoona

  For the second time = on this list,=20 I have seen the name Haltoona used with respect to passenger car=20 repairs.  Is there such a place or shop or is this a humorous way = of=20 pronouncing Altoona??

Evan=20 Leisey
RCT&HS  346 =
------=_NextPart_000_00D6_01C328DD.D64B7A20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Laird" Subject: [PRR] PRR Narrow Gauge Operations Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 08:10:51 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C328DE.7B57ACA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What narrow gauge operations took place on the Pennsy? I am aware of = the interchange with the East Broad Top. Were there interchanges with = other narrow gauge lines? Did the Pennsy operate any narrow gauge track = or equipment? Bill Laird Canyon Lake, TX Building 2 1/2" scale NG equipment to opeate on 7 1/2" gauge track ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C328DE.7B57ACA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What narrow gauge operations took place on the = Pennsy?  I=20 am aware of the interchange with the East Broad Top.  Were there=20 interchanges with other narrow gauge lines?  Did the Pennsy operate = any=20 narrow gauge track or equipment?
 
Bill Laird
Canyon Lake, TX
Building 2 1/2" scale NG equipment to opeate on 7 = 1/2" gauge=20 track
 
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C328DE.7B57ACA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dso8.5im. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 09:12:49 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Narrow Gauge Operations From: Jerry Britton On 6/2/03 9:10 AM, Bill Laird (Bill-Laird@satx.rr.com) wrote: > What narrow gauge operations took place on the Pennsy? I am aware of the > interchange with the East Broad Top. Were there interchanges with other > narrow gauge lines? Did the Pennsy operate any narrow gauge track or > equipment? > There were quite a few that interchanged on the Middle Division. There was one at Newport (or Port Royal?) that George Pierson models. There was a Perry County railroad that came in at Duncannon. I know there were others. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Narrow Gauge Operations Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 06:25:46 -0700 Bill and all, I heard that the Pennsy (at one time) operated at least 3 narrow gauge lines, all 3 foot. One was the Ohio River and Western, another one was the Waynesburg and Western (one of their locomotives survives today) and I can't remember the third line. One of the Pennsy Power books has a photo of one of the W&W locomotives, lettered "PENNSYLVANIA". Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Mon, 2 Jun 2003 08:10:51 -0500 "Bill Laird" wrote: > What narrow gauge operations took place on the Pennsy? I > am aware of the interchange with the East Broad Top. > Were there interchanges with other narrow gauge lines? > Did the Pennsy operate any narrow gauge track or > equipment? > > Bill Laird > Canyon Lake, TX > Building 2 1/2" scale NG equipment to opeate on 7 1/2" > gauge track > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 09:25:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Narrow Gauge Operations On Mon, 2 Jun 2003, Bill Laird wrote: > What narrow gauge operations took place on the Pennsy? I am aware of > the interchange with the East Broad Top. Were there interchanges with > other narrow gauge lines? Did the Pennsy operate any narrow gauge track > or equipment? The Ohio River and Western, and the Waynesburg and Washington were both narrow gauge (and operated by the Pennsy) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Haltoona Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 09:36:10 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C328EA.674A0B70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No as in Payoli, Lannnnnnncaster, Hairrrrrisburg, Lewissssssstown, Mount Union, Tyrone, Halllllltoona, Johnstown, Latrobe, Greensburg, East Libbbbberty, and Pittsburgh. And that's just the way it wuz. WDV -----Original Message----- From: Tom Mahon [mailto:tmahon@adelphia.net] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 7:59 AM To: Bill Volkmer; RDG2124@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Haltoona As in BEEutiful, Phildelfya, and Igles?? Tom Mahon formerly of Mt Ephraim, NJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Volkmer To: RDG2124@aol.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 8:06 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Haltoona THAT's the way the Station Announcer at North Philadelphia pronounced it, so that's the way Philadelphians pronounce it! WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of RDG2124@aol.com Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 9:40 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Haltoona For the second time on this list, I have seen the name Haltoona used with respect to passenger car repairs. Is there such a place or shop or is this a humorous way of pronouncing Altoona?? Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C328EA.674A0B70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
No as=20 in Payoli, Lannnnnnncaster, Hairrrrrisburg, Lewissssssstown, Mount = Union,=20 Tyrone, Halllllltoona, Johnstown, Latrobe, Greensburg, East Libbbbberty, = and=20 Pittsburgh.
 
And=20 that's just the way it wuz.
 
WDV
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom = Mahon=20 [mailto:tmahon@adelphia.net]
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 = 7:59=20 AM
To: Bill Volkmer; RDG2124@aol.com;=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] = Haltoona

As in BEEutiful, Phildelfya, and = Igles??=20
 
Tom Mahon
formerly of Mt Ephraim, NJ =
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bill Volkmer
To: RDG2124@aol.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 = 8:06=20 AM
Subject: RE: [PRR] = Haltoona

THAT's the way the Station Announcer at North Philadelphia = pronounced=20 it, so that's the way Philadelphians pronounce = it!
 
WDV
-----Original Message-----
From: mso-A=20 href=3D"mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com">PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of RDG2124@aol.com
Sent: = Sunday,=20 June 01, 2003 9:40 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject:=20 [PRR] Haltoona

  For the second = time on this=20 list, I have seen the name Haltoona used with respect to passenger = car=20 repairs.  Is there such a place or shop or is this a humorous = way of=20 pronouncing Altoona??

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  = 346=20
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C328EA.674A0B70-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 09:56:30 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 06/01/03 From: "Stephen H. Prosser" > For the second time on this list, I have seen the name Haltoona used with > respect to passenger car repairs. Is there such a place or shop or is th= is a > humorous way of pronouncing Altoona?? Evan & List, As a former Altoonan or "Altoid" as some of us say, I have never heard of a= n Haltoona, nor do I think that it's funny. The correct funny way to say Altoona (and using proper Altoonaese) is "Altonna" as in "gonna". =20 Hope this clears things up (once and for all), --=20 Steve Prosser Modeling Altoona and Environs _____________________________________________=86\ / =3DALTOONA=3D | / | \HOME OF THE WORLD'S LARGEST RAILROAD SHOPS | \____________________________________________ | \ | \| =20 -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "JOHN PLACHA" Subject: [PRR] Dwarf Signals PRR Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 10:09:27 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C328EF.0D078FC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My friend that works for NS ,is the regonal Superviser for the = signal dept. HE told me the original dwarfs were supplied by one vender. = When that vender went out of business the person that copied the specs = for the new vender, accidentaly copied the photo negative backwards. = That is why the dwarfs were changed,when broken,or no longer = sevisable,the slope was to the opposite side.The originals all sloped to = the right,the newer ones sloped to the left,due to the clerical = error,when this was noticed the PRR had already purchaced hundreds of = them. John P. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C328EF.0D078FC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
        My=20 friend that works for NS ,is the regonal Superviser for the signal dept. = HE told=20 me the original dwarfs were supplied by one vender. When that vender = went out of=20 business the person that copied the specs for the new vender, = accidentaly copied=20 the photo negative backwards. That is why the dwarfs were changed,when = broken,or=20 no longer sevisable,the slope was to the opposite side.The originals all = sloped=20 to the right,the newer ones sloped to the left,due to the clerical = error,when=20 this was noticed the PRR had already purchaced hundreds of=20 them.           &n= bsp;       John=20 P.
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C328EF.0D078FC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Narrow Gauge Operations Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 10:47:44 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C328F4.666F3040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lew, What about the Ohio River & Western from Bellaire to Zanesville, OH? It = was owned by PRR and 3ft gauge. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lewis J. Matt PhD=20 To: PRR-Talk LIST ; Bill Laird=20 Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 9:44 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Narrow Gauge Operations Bill: The Waynesburg and Washington was Pennsy's only operating 3 foot = narrow gage railroad and was never changed to standard gage. It ran in = southwestern PA between Washington and Waynesburg, both towns are = located along Interstate 79. The roadbed is still in existence along = with all the bridges and can be walked. Many of the structures are = still in place and in good repair, being used by local farmers who have = "claimed" the right of way on their land. The right of way is still = owned in total by a holding company in Ohio(?). I would like to see this RR rebuilt as a light rail and connect the = existing Pittsburgh light rail, located in North Washington, and run = through Waynesburg to Morgantown W Va. A Baldwin 2-6-0 w/tender from the W&W is on display at the Waynesburg = Historical Society, just minutes from I 79. This loco looks like the = Bachman On30 (or is it the other way around????). Jim Weinshanker is the resident expert on the W&W and is currently = writing a book on the subject. It is scheduled for printing very soon. = Contact Gary Kohler of the Maine 2 foot publications m2fq@aol.com for = details on availability etc. This book will have all new, unpublished = photos. There is also a periodical about the W&W published by Jim. Lew How long a minute is depends on what side of the bathroom door you're = on. Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Waste Management and = Energy Systems. Advocating water for life through sustainable = agriculture, sustainable toilets, sustainable gray water systems and = sustainable green construction. Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O., B.O.C.A.I. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Laird=20 To: Talk PRR=20 Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 9:10 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR Narrow Gauge Operations What narrow gauge operations took place on the Pennsy? I am aware = of the interchange with the East Broad Top. Were there interchanges = with other narrow gauge lines? Did the Pennsy operate any narrow gauge = track or equipment? Bill Laird Canyon Lake, TX Building 2 1/2" scale NG equipment to opeate on 7 1/2" gauge track ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C328F4.666F3040 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lew,
 
What about the Ohio River & Western from = Bellaire to=20 Zanesville, OH? It was owned by PRR and 3ft gauge.
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Lewis J. = Matt PhD=20
To: PRR-Talk LIST ; Bill=20 Laird
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 = 9:44=20 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Narrow = Gauge=20 Operations

Bill:
 
The Waynesburg and Washington was = Pennsy's only=20 operating 3 foot narrow gage railroad and was never changed to = standard=20 gage.  It ran in southwestern PA between Washington and = Waynesburg, both=20 towns are located along Interstate 79.  The roadbed is still = in=20 existence along with all the bridges and can be walked.  Many of = the=20 structures are still in place and in good repair, being used by local = farmers=20 who have "claimed" the right of way on their land.  The right of = way is=20 still owned in total by a holding company in Ohio(?).
 
I would like to see this RR rebuilt = as a light=20 rail and connect the existing Pittsburgh light rail, located=20 in North Washington, and run through Waynesburg to = Morgantown W=20 Va.
 
A Baldwin 2-6-0 w/tender from the = W&W is on=20 display at the Waynesburg Historical Society, just minutes from I = 79. =20 This loco looks like the Bachman On30 (or is it the other way=20 around????).
 
Jim Weinshanker is the resident = expert on the=20 W&W and is currently writing a book on the subject.  It is = scheduled=20 for printing very soon.  Contact Gary Kohler of the Maine 2 foot=20 publications m2fq@aol.com for = details=20 on availability etc.  This book will have all new,=20 unpublished photos.  There is also a=20 periodical about the W&W published by Jim.
 
Lew
 
 
 
How long a minute is depends on what side of the bathroom door = you're=20 on.
 
Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Waste Management = and=20 Energy Systems.  Advocating water for life through sustainable=20 agriculture,  sustainable toilets,  sustainable gray water = systems=20 and  sustainable green construction.
Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., = C.S.E.O., B.O.C.A.I.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bill=20 Laird
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 = 9:10=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] PRR Narrow = Gauge=20 Operations

What narrow gauge operations took place on the=20 Pennsy?  I am aware of the interchange with the East Broad = Top. =20 Were there interchanges with other narrow gauge lines?  Did the = Pennsy=20 operate any narrow gauge track or equipment?
 
Bill Laird
Canyon Lake, TX
Building 2 1/2" scale NG equipment to opeate on = 7 1/2"=20 gauge track
 
------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C328F4.666F3040-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 07:52:08 -0700 From: Peter Weiglin Subject: [PRR] Haltoona Steve Prosser wrote: > As a former Altoonan or "Altoid" as some of us say, I have never > heard of an Haltoona, nor do I think that it's funny. The correct > funny way to say Altoona (and using proper Altoonaese) is "Altonna" > as in "gonna". -- But Bill Volkmer's point was that "Haltoona" was the way PHILADELPHIANS pronounced "Altoona." There are sub-regional differences. The constant seems to be the "Gyunt Iggle" supermarket chain. (And to translate for the Penn-Texans, the "Iggle" is our national bird.) Peter Weiglin San Mateo CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 11:21:00 EDT Subject: [PRR] (no subject) --part1_18c.1b23d7f6.2c0cc55c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/2/2003 11:12:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com writes: > Not "Philadelphians" Pete, more specifically the TRAIN announcer on the > loud speaker at North Philadelphia station, which was a hangout for > legions of railfans. > Not to be confused with the Sunday afternoon announcer at Newark (NJ) Pennsylvania Station, who reduced each of the station names for the Jersey Avenue local to a single syllable, e.g., "'Tuch". During a recent stint of telephone-order-taking, more than half of my callers from Metuchen remembered the PRR pronunciation of their borough's name. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_18c.1b23d7f6.2c0cc55c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/2/20= 03 11:12:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com writes:


Not "Philadelphians" Pete,=20= more specifically the TRAIN announcer on the
loud speaker at North Philadelphia station, which was a hangout for
legions of railfans.


Not to be confused with the Sunday afternoon announcer at Newark (NJ)
Pennsylvania Station, who reduced each of the station names for the=20
Jersey Avenue local to a single syllable, e.g., "'Tuch". During a recent
stint of telephone-order-taking, more than half of my callers from Metuc= hen
remembered the PRR pronunciation of their borough's name.

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_18c.1b23d7f6.2c0cc55c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 11:22:37 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Haltoona --part1_156.1fe767e4.2c0cc5bd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/2/2003 11:12:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com writes: > Not "Philadelphians" Pete, more specifically the TRAIN announcer on the > loud speaker at North Philadelphia station, which was a hangout for > legions of railfans. > Not to be confused with the Sunday afternoon announcer at Newark (NJ) Pennsylvania Station, who reduced each of the station names for the Jersey Avenue local to a single syllable, e.g., "'Tuch". During a recent stint of telephone-order-taking, more than half of my callers from Metuchen remembered the PRR pronunciation of their borough's name. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_156.1fe767e4.2c0cc5bd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/2/20= 03 11:12:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com writes:

Not "Philadelphians" Pete,=20= more specifically the TRAIN announcer on the
loud speaker at North Philadelphia station, which was a hangout for
legions of railfans.


Not to be confused with the Sunday afternoon announcer at Newark (NJ)
Pennsylvania Station, who reduced each of the station names for the=20
Jersey Avenue local to a single syllable, e.g., "'Tuch". During a recent
stint of telephone-order-taking, more than half of my callers from Metuc= hen
remembered the PRR pronunciation of their borough's name.

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_156.1fe767e4.2c0cc5bd_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Haltoona Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 11:23:21 -0400 Not "Philadelphians" Pete, more specifically the TRAIN announcer on the loud speaker at North Philadelphia station, which was a hangout for legions of railfans. Or have we all forgotten the most populous trainwatching spot in the nation until Cajon Pass was discovered? -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Peter Weiglin Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 10:52 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Haltoona Steve Prosser wrote: > As a former Altoonan or "Altoid" as some of us say, I have never > heard of an Haltoona, nor do I think that it's funny. The correct > funny way to say Altoona (and using proper Altoonaese) is "Altonna" > as in "gonna". -- But Bill Volkmer's point was that "Haltoona" was the way PHILADELPHIANS pronounced "Altoona." There are sub-regional differences. The constant seems to be the "Gyunt Iggle" supermarket chain. (And to translate for the Penn-Texans, the "Iggle" is our national bird.) Peter Weiglin San Mateo CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] More PRR along I-70 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 10:51:34 -0500 And there are still discernable remnants of the PRR passenger station along the river and the bike path where the tracks were located. -----Original Message----- From: Dan Cupper [mailto:cupper@att.net] Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 12:11 AM To: Beth Caples Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] More PRR along I-70 Greetings to John, Jerry, and the List: Not equipment, but some more I-70 PRR highlights: Columbus, Ohio It's fairly easy to take a quick detour off I-70 to the Columbus Airport. If you follow a service road to the southeast end of the airport property, you'll find the original Port Columbus Airport terminal building intact, converted for office space. It is exactly as shown in surviving photos and the 1929 Grif Teller PRR calendar painting, which illustrated the rail-to-air transfer when PRR's Airway Limited connected with Transcontinental Air Transport to offer 48-hour coast-to-coast travel. The ex-PRR Panhandle main line, now Ohio Central, tracks are right across the street, and you can see how easy it was for detraining PRR passengers to walk the short distance to the waiting TAT Ford Tri-Motor plane. Zanesville to Bellaire, Ohio (opposite Wheeling, W.Va.) Definitely need more time than a quick stop off the interstate provides, but this was Ohio River & Western narrow-gauge territory and the abandoned right-of-way can still be seen in places. Wheeling W.Va. If you have an extra half-hour while you're passing through Wheeling, W.Va., it's fairly easy to find a surviving ex-PRR tunnel on active track. From the Interstate(s), there are two ways to get there. If using I-70 proper through town, exit into the city and follow local streets south until you come to the only tracks left in town, then turn around and follow them northeast, using parallel and cross streets, and you'll eventually come to the tunnel. If using I-470, the bypass, exit the interstate and start to drive north on local streets toward Wheeling until you come to the tracks, then follow the directions above. This is a remnant of PRR's former Wheeling Terminal Railway. If you have more time to explore, it's not too difficult to follow local streets to trace the ex-PRR trackage on the north end of the tunnel. Connected to the outside world only via ex-B&O trackage on the south end, this ex-PRR line leads to a small industrial park and what used to be an interchange (and once upon a time, a wye) with the now-abandoned Pittsburgh-Wheeling line of the B&O, now a hiking-biking trail in and around Wheeling. (By the way, the very substantial ex-B&O passenger station still stands in the city, but all the B&O tracks leading to it are gone.) North of the industrial park, the ex-PRR line is abandoned, but it previously passed through two more tunnels and then crossed the Ohio into Martin's Ferry, Ohio, on a bridge that no longer exists. From there, it connected with another PRR line that ran north to Steubenville, Ohio, and a connection with the Panhandle main line. If you drive to the north end of Wheeling, you can observe the northernmost portal of the northernmost WTRy tunnel at the point where it exited the mountain high on a bluff, and from that, you can judge the height and the angle it took in crossing the river. A different ex-PRR route into town from the north, the Wheeling Branch, which followed the south bank of the Ohio from Weirton Junction, has been long abandoned. You can see Weirton Jct. and the beginning of the Wheeling Branch on the extreme left side of the 1953 Grif Teller PRR calendar painting, which shows the Panhandle main line crossing the Ohio at Weirton W.Va./Steubenville, Ohio. If you were to have the time to drive up to that area (28 miles), you can almost replicate the scene of that painting because the substantial 1926 steel bridge over the Ohio is still there and still used. Probably not a viable detour with family considerations, but it is possible to take U.S. Route 22 from there to Pittsburgh. Washington, Pa. Pennsylvania Trolley Museum north of the city is located adjacent to the former PRR Chartiers Branch (Pittsburgh area to Washington, Pa.), which is still active Gronow served by a shortline operator. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. Beth Caples wrote: >I would >also like to thank those who answered my vacation question taking I-70 >through Ill,, Ind.,Ohio, and into Pa. >Now for the final question. Is there any PRR equipment (not far off the >beaten path) along this same route? >Thanks, John Caples > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Freitas" Subject: [PRR] Haltoona Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 08:58:39 -0700 Guess this puts an end to the rumor that Bill Parcells was joining Scott Cessna's management "team". Thanks to: Bill>>Evan>>Tom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 12:19:22 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Haltoona In a message dated 6/2/03 8:24:47 AM, bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com writes: << No as in Payoli, Lannnnnnncaster, Hairrrrrisburg, Lewissssssstown, Mount Union, Tyrone, Halllllltoona, Johnstown, Latrobe, Greensburg, East Libbbbberty, and Pittsburgh. >> My memories are fading, but I never remember a passenger trainman calling "Payoli!" It was ALWAYS, "Payoli Payoli!" He always said it twice and if you were not from around here, you'd assume it was just another town with a double name like "Walla Walla." Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Haltoona Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 16:23:21 +0000 To us Philadelphians it is Iggles not iggle and they used to play at Franklin Field where you could watch games and while hearing trains on the highline. > Steve Prosser wrote: > > > As a former Altoonan or "Altoid" as some of us say, I have never > > heard of an Haltoona, nor do I think that it's funny. The correct > > funny way to say Altoona (and using proper Altoonaese) is "Altonna" > > as in "gonna". > > -- > > But Bill Volkmer's point was that "Haltoona" was the way PHILADELPHIANS > pronounced "Altoona." There are sub-regional differences. The constant > seems to be the "Gyunt Iggle" supermarket chain. (And to translate for the > Penn-Texans, the "Iggle" is our national bird.) > > Peter Weiglin > San Mateo CA > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Narrow Gauge Operations Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 09:42:58 -0700 Lew, The OR&W was never regauged...just abandoned in the 30's. Many, many years ago there was an article on the last run in Trains written by R.W. Richardson. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Thu, 3 Jul 2003 12:24:30 -0400 "Lewis J. Matt PhD" wrote: > I believe that RR and the others, except W&W, were > eventually regaged to standard. > > Lew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 12:53:05 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Other Road's head-end cars Sounds like it time for the publisher to do another printing! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Martin Skrzetuszewski wrote: > Thanks for the recommendation. Sadly the ($12.95?) book seems to > command a used price in excess of $150!!. Regards,Martin > Skrzetuszewski > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com > To: j.bruce@gte.net ; martinskrzetuszewski@lineone.net ; > PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 3:19 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Other Road's head-end cars > I recommend Vic Roseman's book "Railway Express: An > Overview" [Rocky Mountain Publishing, Inc. - 1992] as an > excellent starting point for car assignments and routings. > The Eastern railroads -- including the P.R.R. - are > prominently featured. > > Chris Baker #1918 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alex Charyna" Subject: Re: [PRR] Haltoona Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 08:58:04 -0800 > No as in Payoli, you mean it's not pronounced "Payoli"? what's next? some crazyness like "water" isn't pronounced "wuhdder"? ;) There used to be (5 years ago) a conductor on Septa's R7... Would call them out as Briiiiiides...burg! Wisssss-ono-MING! Ta-coney! then he'd let you down by announcing Holmesburg Junction in a monotone. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Volkmer" To: "'Tom Mahon'" ; ; Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 5:36 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Haltoona > No as in Payoli, Lannnnnnncaster, Hairrrrrisburg, Lewissssssstown, Mount > Union, Tyrone, Halllllltoona, Johnstown, Latrobe, Greensburg, East > Libbbbberty, and Pittsburgh. > > And that's just the way it wuz. > > WDV > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Mahon [mailto:tmahon@adelphia.net] > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 7:59 AM > To: Bill Volkmer; RDG2124@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Haltoona > > > As in BEEutiful, Phildelfya, and Igles?? > > Tom Mahon > formerly of Mt Ephraim, NJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Volkmer > To: RDG2124@aol.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 8:06 AM > Subject: RE: [PRR] Haltoona > > THAT's the way the Station Announcer at North Philadelphia pronounced > it, so that's the way Philadelphians pronounce it! > > WDV > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of > RDG2124@aol.com > Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 9:40 PM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Haltoona > > > For the second time on this list, I have seen the name Haltoona used > with respect to passenger car repairs. Is there such a place or shop or > is this a humorous way of pronouncing Altoona?? > > Evan Leisey > RCT&HS 346 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 13:01:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Other Road's head-end cars From: Jerry Britton On 6/2/03 12:53 PM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > Sounds like it time for the publisher to do another printing! > That's unreal, $150? Maybe I should discount my own copy for $125! It's a shame, as it's not likely to reprint any time soon, IMHO. It sold very slowly and was, in fact, still available until less than a year ago. Because it did sell slowly, it won't be a likely reprint candidate for a few more years, anyway. > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > Martin Skrzetuszewski wrote: > >> Thanks for the recommendation. Sadly the ($12.95?) book seems to >> command a used price in excess of $150!!. Regards,Martin >> Skrzetuszewski >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com >> To: j.bruce@gte.net ; martinskrzetuszewski@lineone.net ; >> PRR-Talk@dsop.com >> Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 3:19 AM >> Subject: Re: [PRR] Other Road's head-end cars >> I recommend Vic Roseman's book "Railway Express: An >> Overview" [Rocky Mountain Publishing, Inc. - 1992] as an >> excellent starting point for car assignments and routings. >> The Eastern railroads -- including the P.R.R. - are >> prominently featured. >> >> Chris Baker #1918 ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 11:19:36 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Narrow Gauge Operations --- "Lewis J. Matt PhD" wrote: > The Waynesburg and Washington was Pennsy's only operating 3 foot > narrow gage railroad and was never changed to standard gage. Not so, on two counts. 1) The Ohio River and Western (Belaire to Zanesville) was narrow gauge and did operate from 1912 to 1931 as a subsidiary of PRR. See "American Narrow Gauge Railroads", George W. Hilton, Stanford University Press, 1990. 2) Last I looked, which was about 25 years ago, there was standard gauge track on the W&W right of way. Granted, very strange track, with ties 4 to 5 feet apart on trestles. Toward the end of "operation", traffic consisted of a truck fitted with flanged wheels which made regular trips from between Washington and Waynesburg. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Narrow Gauge Operations Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 14:37:20 -0400 Gents, If I recall correctly, some narrow gauge railroads actually switched trucks on cars so they wouldn't have to transfer loads in a standard car to a narrow gauge car. I think they used a crane to necessitate this procedure, but i don't remember. It would be an interesting practice to model. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 14:22:32 -0500 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] PRR NG Ops and connections Hi, all, In the "toot your own horn" dept., I did a presentation at the 2002 annual meeting on PRR NG connections. The outline is posted at the PRRT&HS website under the "annual meeting" link, under the 2002 annual meeting section. Some observations - the PRR's two most direct NG's were the already-mentioned W&W and the OR&W. Beyond this, the PRR had ng interests in a number of lines around Bradford, PA that came into the PRR fold via the W NY & Pa. Also there was the Cincinnati, Lebanon & Northern and the former Bells Gap, both of which started out NG. RE exchange of trucks, in the 19th century, there were many installations for this practice and the most common was the Ramsey Transfer. It used a pit with outside-bearing rails on both sides. The car was stopped at one end, poles placed under it and onto "trolleys" running on the outside-bearing rails. The car was then pushed over the pit, where the St.G trucks dropped off the kingpins and ng trucks were substituted. See Hilton's AMERICAN NG for the whole story. There were many such installations in Ohio and Pennsylvania. They were mostly gone by the 20th century - the last example, to my knowledge, was one used by the B&O at Foxburg, PA where the former Pittsburgh & Western n.g. line (owned by the B&O) ran from Butler, PA and continued on to Mt. Jewett as a NG. The whole line was St.g'd in 1911. I have modeled such a transfer on the Tuscarora Valley RR layout, it works, and it makes for some interesting operating. The two lines mentioned in an earlier message on the Middle Div. which I model, are the Tuscarora Valley RR at Port Royal, and the Newport & Shermans Valley RR at Newport. The Perry County connected at Duncannon but was always st.g. George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PGrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Narrow Gauge Operations Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 20:37:18 +0100 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C32946.C2C8E0A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, Stanford University Press did a book on American Narrow Gauge that = covers all lines that ever existed and what happened to them. It is a fairly academic tome but has vast amounts of = information. regards Patrick Grace ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lewis J. Matt PhD=20 To: PRR-Talk LIST ; Bill Laird=20 Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 2:44 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Narrow Gauge Operations Bill: The Waynesburg and Washington was Pennsy's only operating 3 foot = narrow gage railroad and was never changed to standard gage. It ran in = southwestern PA between Washington and Waynesburg, both towns are = located along Interstate 79. The roadbed is still in existence along = with all the bridges and can be walked. Many of the structures are = still in place and in good repair, being used by local farmers who have = "claimed" the right of way on their land. The right of way is still = owned in total by a holding company in Ohio(?). I would like to see this RR rebuilt as a light rail and connect the = existing Pittsburgh light rail, located in North Washington, and run = through Waynesburg to Morgantown W Va. A Baldwin 2-6-0 w/tender from the W&W is on display at the Waynesburg = Historical Society, just minutes from I 79. This loco looks like the = Bachman On30 (or is it the other way around????). Jim Weinshanker is the resident expert on the W&W and is currently = writing a book on the subject. It is scheduled for printing very soon. = Contact Gary Kohler of the Maine 2 foot publications m2fq@aol.com for = details on availability etc. This book will have all new, unpublished = photos. There is also a periodical about the W&W published by Jim. Lew How long a minute is depends on what side of the bathroom door you're = on. Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Waste Management and = Energy Systems. Advocating water for life through sustainable = agriculture, sustainable toilets, sustainable gray water systems and = sustainable green construction. Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O., B.O.C.A.I. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Laird=20 To: Talk PRR=20 Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 9:10 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR Narrow Gauge Operations What narrow gauge operations took place on the Pennsy? I am aware = of the interchange with the East Broad Top. Were there interchanges = with other narrow gauge lines? Did the Pennsy operate any narrow gauge = track or equipment? Bill Laird Canyon Lake, TX Building 2 1/2" scale NG equipment to opeate on 7 1/2" gauge track ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C32946.C2C8E0A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bill,
 
Stanford University Press did a book on = American=20 Narrow Gauge that covers all lines that ever existed and what=20 happened
to them. It is a fairly academic tome = but has vast=20 amounts of information.
 
regards
 
Patrick Grace
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Lewis J. = Matt PhD=20
To: PRR-Talk LIST ; Bill=20 Laird
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 = 2:44=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Narrow = Gauge=20 Operations

Bill:
 
The Waynesburg and Washington was = Pennsy's only=20 operating 3 foot narrow gage railroad and was never changed to = standard=20 gage.  It ran in southwestern PA between Washington and = Waynesburg, both=20 towns are located along Interstate 79.  The roadbed is still = in=20 existence along with all the bridges and can be walked.  Many of = the=20 structures are still in place and in good repair, being used by local = farmers=20 who have "claimed" the right of way on their land.  The right of = way is=20 still owned in total by a holding company in Ohio(?).
 
I would like to see this RR rebuilt = as a light=20 rail and connect the existing Pittsburgh light rail, located=20 in North Washington, and run through Waynesburg to = Morgantown W=20 Va.
 
A Baldwin 2-6-0 w/tender from the = W&W is on=20 display at the Waynesburg Historical Society, just minutes from I = 79. =20 This loco looks like the Bachman On30 (or is it the other way=20 around????).
 
Jim Weinshanker is the resident = expert on the=20 W&W and is currently writing a book on the subject.  It is = scheduled=20 for printing very soon.  Contact Gary Kohler of the Maine 2 foot=20 publications m2fq@aol.com for = details=20 ct on availability etc.  This book will have all new,=20 unpublished photos.  There is also a=20 periodical about the W&W published by Jim.
 
Lew
 
 
 
How long a minute is depends on what side of the bathroom door = you're=20 on.
 
Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Waste Management = and=20 Energy Systems.  Advocating water for life through sustainable=20 agriculture,  sustainable toilets,  sustainable gray water = systems=20 and  sustainable green construction.
Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., = C.S.E.O., B.O.C.A.I.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bill=20 Laird
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 = 9:10=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] PRR Narrow = Gauge=20 Operations

What narrow gauge operations took place on the=20 Pennsy?  I am aware of the interchange with the East Broad = Top. =20 Were there interchanges with other narrow gauge lines?  Did the = Pennsy=20 operate any narrow gauge track or equipment?
 
Bill Laird
Canyon Lake, TX
Building 2 1/2" scale NG equipment to opeate on = 7 1/2"=20 gauge track
 
------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C32946.C2C8E0A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Narrow Gauge Operations Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 12:39:05 -0700 The Three Rivers Narrow Gauge Historical Society had its annual meeting last year in Waynesburg, PA, complete with motorcade tour of the right of way. The only standard gauge remaining on the W&W right of way now is basically rails in pavement here and there in both Waynesburg and Washington. The former Monongahela line to Bailey Mine parallels the W&W right of way but does not occupy it. The Washington depot still exists and is in use as a storage building for a building supply house. This depot is quite impressive and shares, with some other PRR stations, very European detail, such as the steel or iron latticework supporting the platform roofs. ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert netzlof" To: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" ; "Bill Laird" Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 11:19 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Narrow Gauge Operations > --- "Lewis J. Matt PhD" wrote: > > The Waynesburg and Washington was Pennsy's only operating 3 foot > > narrow gage railroad and was never changed to standard gage. > > Not so, on two counts. > > 1) The Ohio River and Western (Belaire to Zanesville) was narrow > gauge and did operate from 1912 to 1931 as a subsidiary of PRR. See > "American Narrow Gauge Railroads", George W. Hilton, Stanford > University Press, 1990. > > 2) Last I looked, which was about 25 years ago, there was standard > gauge track on the W&W right of way. Granted, very strange track, > with ties 4 to 5 feet apart on trestles. Toward the end of > "operation", traffic consisted of a truck fitted with flanged wheels > which made regular trips from between Washington and Waynesburg. > > > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). > http://calendar.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Doug Drew Subject: [PRR] RE: PRR-Talk Digest - 06/02/03 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 15:59:05 -0400 Martin Skrzetuszewski wrote: > Sadly the ($12.95?) book seems to >command a used price in excess of $150!!. Holy-Oke Massachusetts! (A "Tom Terrific" reference, how many of you remember?) Gee, I picked my copy up during the closeout sale at one of the Great Train Stores (in Holyoke, actually). Cover was a bit scuffed up, but the price was right, half-price IIRC. $6.50, you can pay more than that for a magazine full of ads... WHERE are they getting that kind of price for this book? Ebay? An example of "irrational exuberance"... I bought it as I had seen so little published about REA (I think it was a collection of articles originally published in Model Railroading magazine), but the book itself had pen and ink sketches of REA's facilities, rail and highway equipment and the like, and not very good ones at that, IMHO. I remember reading somewhere that the author didn't want to pay for rights to use actual photos, so he illustrated copies of the photos by hand! Doug Drew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Narrow Gauge Operations Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 13:32:19 -0700 As far as I know, there was only one narrow gauge road that did this. However, it was the East Broad Top (who interchanged with the PRR at Mount Union) so we can model it! As I remember it, sometime back when the world was entirely black and white, MR (or was it Model Trains?) did an article on this operation. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Mon, 02 Jun 2003 14:37:20 -0400 John Frantz wrote: > Gents, > > If I recall correctly, some narrow gauge railroads > actually switched trucks on cars so they wouldn't have to > transfer loads in a standard car to a narrow gauge car. I > think they used a crane to necessitate this procedure, > but i don't remember. It would be an interesting practice > to model. > John > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 16:54:58 -0400 From: Bill Subject: Re: [PRR] Haltoona LAMAassoc@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 6/2/03 8:24:47 AM, bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com writes: > > << No as in Payoli, Lannnnnnncaster, Hairrrrrisburg, Lewissssssstown, Mount > Union, Tyrone, Halllllltoona, Johnstown, Latrobe, Greensburg, East > Libbbbberty, and Pittsburgh. >> > > My memories are fading, but I never remember a passenger trainman calling > "Payoli!" > > It was ALWAYS, "Payoli Payoli!" He always said it twice and if you were not > from around here, you'd assume it was just another town with a double name like > "Walla Walla." > > Regards, Marty If it was announced in Philly, it might have been Payola. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Narrow Gauge Operations Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 21:09:52 +0000 John Armstrong did an East Broadtop layout in MR also. The MT. Union facility was prominent in the plan. I want to remember it being somewhere in the late 70's that it was published. > As far as I know, there was only one narrow gauge road that > did this. However, it was the East Broad Top (who > interchanged with the PRR at Mount Union) so we can model > it! As I remember it, sometime back when the world was > entirely black and white, MR (or was it Model Trains?) did > an article on this operation. > > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ > > On Mon, 02 Jun 2003 14:37:20 -0400 > John Frantz wrote: > > Gents, > > > > If I recall correctly, some narrow gauge railroads > > actually switched trucks on cars so they wouldn't have to > > transfer loads in a standard car to a narrow gauge car. I > > think they used a crane to necessitate this procedure, > > but i don't remember. It would be an interesting practice > > to model. > > John > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 14:13:36 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Narrow Gauge Operations --- billd@gci-net.com wrote: > As far as I know, there was only one narrow gauge road that > did this. However, it was the East Broad Top (who > interchanged with the PRR at Mount Union) so we can model > it! As I remember it, sometime back when the world was > entirely black and white, MR (or was it Model Trains?) did > an article on this operation. > On Mon, 02 Jun 2003 14:37:20 -0400 > John Frantz wrote: > > If I recall correctly, some narrow gauge railroads > > actually switched trucks on cars so they wouldn't have to > > transfer loads in a standard car to a narrow gauge car. I > > think they used a crane... The East Broad Top did use a crane, mainly because the crane was there. It had originally been built by a logging company to transfer logs from narrow to standard gauge cars. EBT used it in their transfer of standard gauge car bodies to narrow gauge trucks. The EBT continued to do it much more recently that others. However, EBT weren't the only folks who did it. The practice seems to have been more common in the late 19th century than later. There is one account somewhere (don't remember where) involving an wreck precipitated by moving an Erie cattle car, and that in the days when the Erie was 6 foot gauge with car widths to match, over a 3 foot gauge line in northern PA. When the Ligonier Valley RR was still the Latrobe and Ligonier RR and 3 foot gauge, it had a car transfer facility at Latrobe, said to be the first of its kind. See Rehor's "The Nickel Plate Story" for some comments and drawings of the apparatus, in connection with NG lines in Ohio, and a footnote regarding the Ligonier Valley installation. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Weinschenker" Subject: [PRR] PRR narrow gauge Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 18:10:02 -0400 Hi folks... Jim Weinschenker here...reporting in on my railroad...the Waynesburg & Washington RR. The PRR purchased the W&W in 1885 as a result of a stock proxy battle with the B&O. The W&W ran under its own flag until 1920 when the Pennsy reorganized and relettered all W&W equipment "PENNSYLVANIA". The line was standard gauged in 1943/1944 with only a single test run under steam. A Ford railtruck as well as Fairmont type speeder cars serviced the line up until the early 1970s. The only surviving locomotive from the seven Moguls is second #4 (9684), an American Locomotive/Cooke Works product. It is currently housed at the Greene County Museum in Waynesburg and is awaiting funds for restoration to operating condition. At the end of all steam operations in April 1933, the W&W sent a few gondolas to the Ohio River & Western for their use. Ed Cass published a photo of a W&W gon in his book, "Hidden Treasures". Contrary to popular belief, the two roads never exchanged locomotives. As my good friend Dr. Matt alluded to, my book will be released October 2003 and contains over 200 previously unpublished photos. I even have a photo of the construction company locomotive that regauged the line. It's shown dumping cinders to fill in Elm Street Trestle just outside of Washington. I am still taking pre-orders for the book. Hit the Light Iron Digest website to order or hit the narrowtracks website to see my baby...Loco #4. Feel free to contact me should you have any further questions on the W&W. Thanks for your time..... JIM Jim Weinschenker 775 Race Street Waynesburg, PA 15370 M2FQ Publications, Accounts Manager http://www.lightirondigest.com/ http://www.narrowtracks.com/wwrr/index.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 18:40:20 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Haltoona Two of my favorites on the PRR were the trainmen's announcements - Haver de grass for Havre de Grace and Odington for Odenton both on ML PHL-WAS And my all time favorite trainmen's announcement - Fellows Balls for Bellows Falls (on the CV) Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 18:50:23 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: PRR-Talk Digest - 06/02/03 --part1_1f1.a0c8003.2c0d2eaf_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are a scant few prototype photos in the book -- mostly taken by the author, and a larger collection of photos of models -- again, mostly built by/taken by the author. Still, I think it's a valuable primer for the student of the REA from inception to end. And it does include some equipment references, station layouts and consist/routing information that is quite valuable. And if you can get a copy for $6 - $15 I think that's reasonable. Chris Baker #1918 --part1_1f1.a0c8003.2c0d2eaf_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There are a scant few prototype photos in the book --=20= mostly taken by the author, and a larger collection of photos of models -- a= gain, mostly built by/taken by the author.  Still, I think it's a valua= ble primer for the student of the REA from inception to end.  And it do= es include some equipment references, station layouts and consist/routing in= formation that is quite valuable.  And if you can get a copy for $6 - $= 15 I think that's reasonable.

Chris Baker  #1918 --part1_1f1.a0c8003.2c0d2eaf_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 19:53:18 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Other Road's head-end cars In a message dated 6/2/03 11:57:35 AM Central Daylight Time, asmiller@mitre.org writes: << Sounds like it time for the publisher to do another printing! >> Or for the potential buyer to just hang on. For example, the Elmira Branch book is still listed used at 145-175 dollars on Amazon, etc. However, I got mine for about 20% of that on eBay. The Roseman book is only worth $150 if someone is willing to pay that. I have been outbid by people paying $100 for paper items and got the item for $15 a month later. Be patient. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 19:00:01 -0500 From: "Rev. Bob 'Bob' Crispen" Subject: Re: [PRR] Haltoona Al Buchan said on Monday, June 2, 2003 at 5:40:20 PM: > Two of my favorites on the PRR were the trainmen's announcements - > Haver de grass for Havre de Grace Having been near that part of Murriland, I recall that, rather than HAWV ruh duh GRAWSS, it's more like HAV-er-dee Grayce. Of course a lot of wooder has flowed under the bridge since those days. -- Rev. Bob "Bob" Crispen bob at crispen dot org "Novell has done us a tremendous service, by stomping upon an obnoxious parasite." - Bruce Perens ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 19:17:43 -0500 Subject: [PRR] RE: Haltoona From: Frederick Ripley Has anyone mentioned Terry Hut, IN? (as my dad says PRR conductors pronounced it in the 1950's). Fred R. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 20:48:03 EDT Subject: [PRR] Repack Stencils --part1_1a0.15c153b0.2c0d4a43_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While looking through some freight cars photos I noticed what appears to be a PRR repack stencil. As best as I can tell it reads: RPKG EV 2-16-51 PRR. Can anyone verify that this is a PRR location and if so where? I just thought it unusual to find a PRR stencil on this particular car. Todd Horton --part1_1a0.15c153b0.2c0d4a43_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While looking through some freight cars photos I notic= ed what appears to be a PRR repack stencil. As best as I can tell it reads:=20= RPKG  EV  2-16-51  PRR. Can anyone verify that this is a PRR=20= location and if so where? I just thought it unusual to find a PRR stencil on= this particular car. Todd Horton --part1_1a0.15c153b0.2c0d4a43_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] Branchline X43C's Shadow Keystone Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 21:32:51 -0400 I was just about to start assembly on the 4 PRR X43C boxcars I have in the Shadow Keystone. I noticed all the cars had "Return to Indianapolis Indiana" and the numbers 195 (pool assignment?) above the Pennsylvania. Before I build them I was wondering if anyone could tell me what assigned service these cars were used in. I would like to find out if they would make a regular appearance on my corner of the Pennsy. Brian J Carlson Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 21:39:51 EDT Subject: [PRR] RPC as an alternative for headend equipment... --part1_186.1aa102d0.2c0d5667_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/31/03 1:38:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Other Road's head-end cars > From: "Martin Skrzetuszewski" > Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 08:02:57 +0100 > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C3274B.0C591120 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Thanks for the recommendation. Sadly the ($12.95?) book seems to command = > a used price in excess of $150!!. > > Regards, > Martin Skrzetuszewski > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com=20 > To: j.bruce@gte.net ; martinskrzetuszewski@lineone.net ; = > PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 > Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 3:19 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Other Road's head-end cars > > > I recommend Vic Roseman's book "Railway Express: An Overview" [Rocky = > Mountain Publishing, Inc. - 1992] as an excellent starting point for car = > assignments and routings. The Eastern railroads -- including the P.R.R. = > - are prominently featured. > > Chris Baker #1918=20 > There's more on headend equipment (PRR and other) in various issues of the Railway Prototype Cyclopedia. See especially Issue 6: BX Express Box Cars Issue 7: BR & BS Express Refrigerator Cars (includes REA, R50b) Issue 8:editExpress Box Cars - Addendum These are in stock, well-illustrated, and have service-descriptive material in addition to RPC's usual exhaustive illustration and mechanical details, and their rosters of car series, builder, built date, etc. In this particular case, Issue 7 is just about as useful to a modeler as the Roseman REA book and has lots more pix of prototype equipment. The photo reproduction is also much better. I recommend the RPC series as a good way for modelers to drink from the wonderful world of "prototype car information" without drowning in minutae. The issues retail at about $21, but I source mine from Dave's Books at gnrailroader@yahoo.com. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_186.1aa102d0.2c0d5667_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 5/31/03 1= :38:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Re: [PRR] Other Road's= head-end cars
From: "Martin Skrzetuszewski" <martinskrzetuszewski@lineone.net>
Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 08:02:57 +0100

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=3D_NextPart_000_0008_01C3274B.0C591120
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset=3D"iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks for the recommendation. Sadly the ($12.95?) book seems to command=20= =3D
a used price in excess of $150!!.

Regards,
Martin Skrzetuszewski
  ----- Original Message -----=3D20
  From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com=3D20
  To: j.bruce@gte.net ; martinskrzetuszewski@lineone.net ; =3D
PRR-Talk@dsop.com=3D20
  Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 3:19 AM
  Subject: Re: [PRR] Other Road's head-end cars


  I recommend Vic Roseman's book "Railway Express: An Overview"  [= Rocky =3D
Mountain Publishing, Inc. - 1992] as an excellent starting point for car=20= =3D
assignments and routings.  The Eastern railroads -- including the P.R.R= . =3D
- are prominently featured.

  Chris Baker  #1918=3D20


There's more on headend equipment (PRR and other) in various issues of the R= ailway Prototype Cyclopedia.  See especially
Issue 6: BX Express Box Cars
Issue 7: BR & BS Express Refrigerator Cars (includes REA, R50b)
Issue 8: BX Express Box Cars - Addendum

These are in stock, well-illustrated, and have service-descriptive material=20= in addition to RPC's usual exhaustive illustration and mechanical details, a= nd their rosters of car series, builder, built date, etc.  In this part= icular case, Issue 7 is just about as useful to a modeler as the Roseman REA= book and has lots more pix of prototype equipment.  The photo reproduc= tion is also much better.

I recommend the RPC series as a good way for modelers to drink from the wond= erful world of "prototype car information" without drowning in minutae. = ; The issues retail at about $21, but I source mine from Dave's Books at gnr= ailroader@yahoo.com.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_186.1aa102d0.2c0d5667_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 21:39:53 EDT Subject: [PRR] Again, RPC --part1_bc.38eeaff5.2c0d5669_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/31/03 1:38:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Asking for assistance please? > From: "edmund burbage" > Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 09:25:12 -0400 > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C32756.89F03F40 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Is there anyone out there who can point me in the right direction of = > Railroad Freight Car markings and their meanings in book form. > > What I need is an explanation of the weights, built date etc stenciled = > on the sides of Freight cars for an article I want to write for our NRHS = > Club's Bulletin (Newsletter). > > Thank you, > > > Lee Burbage > No/1943 > PRRT&HS > You will find a good article on this in Railway Prototype Cyclopedia Volume 4, along with many pictures of application of the rules. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_bc.38eeaff5.2c0d5669_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 5/31/03 1= :38:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Asking for assistance=20= please?
From: "edmund burbage" <leeprrswitchkey@msn.com>
Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 09:25:12 -0400

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=3D_NextPart_000_0006_01C32756.89F03F40
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset=3D"iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Is there anyone out there who can point me in the right direction of =3D
Railroad Freight Car markings and their meanings in book form.

What I need is an explanation of the weights, built date etc stenciled =3D on the sides of Freight cars for an article I want to write for our NRHS=20= =3D
Club's Bulletin (Newsletter).

Thank you,


Lee Burbage
No/1943
PRRT&HS


You will find a good article on this in Railway Prototype Cyclopedia Volume=20= 4, along with many pictures of application of the rules.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_bc.38eeaff5.2c0d5669_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 21:39:57 EDT Subject: [PRR] Layout designs for PRR Lines West and other locales --part1_144.12bc55d3.2c0d566d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/31/03 12:47:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, pennsy@sover.net writes: > If you feel there are selected points that should receive special > consideration, I would appreciate your input. At this time Columbus is > looking like the starting point the planning,ie. many choices!! > Have followed the threads on the Penn Texas>>Manhattan Ltd., as well as the > topical mention of Columbus as main area of modeling. If anything comes to > mind, please send a note, it will be incorporated in the planning. > Many thanks>>>Fred in Vt. > Hi Fred, As a modeler for 40 years or so, as well as having spent time at the remains major sites on Pennsy's Lines West, you will find that I have a healthy respect for the hugeness of most of PRR's mainline facilities. You've outlined three or four different PRR routes, any one of which would be a monstrous handful even in N scale with plenty of space. As you may have realized from some of my posting, I have concluded that nobody has room for even one faithfully-reproduced PRR division point yard, at least not in HO. The choices seem to be: 1. model a secondary line, like the main ADAMS to NEWMAN (Fort Wayne to Richmond) 2. model some small towns on a main, one of which has a local yard to exchange blocks with through trains (I did this last layout) 3. cheat and model just one end of a major yard facility. That's my current proposal for modeling Columbus -- essentially model the part between two major highway overpasses. I tend to count the complexity of a model railroad in the number of switches used (my mentor used to bounce back yard track plans if they used more than 13 switches). As layout designers/builders, our job is to trade off complexity (thus cost and pain) for believability. Thus, each of us needs to evaluate: 1. What freight and/or passenger traffic is the most attractive to us? Dayton-Xenia-Columbus is my hometown and college experience. 2. What ultimate space could be used to tell this story? I have a new 2100 sq. ft. basement -- can go around all 4 walls and also have full use of the space inside. 3. How large a piece of the railroad can fit in this space (a town, several towns, 30 miles of railroad?). I've decided that the 55 miles between Columbus and Xenia is either enough, or too much. 4. How much can I scale down a chunk of the railroad successfully? This is my biggest worry -- Columbus from the station east was an enormous plant, and I'd like to avoid caricaturing it. 5. Am I going to restage each train after it runs, or can I run them back out later as another schedule? I'll do some of both -- the main west to Chicago will return from the east as the main from Pittsburgh. But the Cincinnati and Dayton/Indy/St. Louis traffic will have to be manually turned in single-ended staging yards. 6. Once I have "the plan", how can I cut it up into phases of construction so at least a little operation starts early, and then subsequent additions expand the layout's capabilities and add variety? My particular plan is to set up the off-layout loop early. Next I'll build part of the Columbus facilities, and then I'll add Pittsburgh and Chicago staging to prove out yard throughput. Finally, I'll start west toward Xenia, creating a territory of small town industries, grain elevators, and local freight work. As indicated, your first step may be a healthy brainstorming of which line's traffic you will enjoy the most. And as you go through the design process, don't be afraid to revisit your two or three best alternatives. Building and maintaining a layout is a lot of work, and you want the end product to justify all your efforts. Endnote freebie: If I were cut free of all my local associations with western Ohio, and particularly if I were not interested in maximizing local freight operations, I would consider the country-running, hill climbing, double track territories of either the Eastern Division or the Panhandle Division in eastern Ohio. The Panhandle used to have ten tunnels, and even after most were daylighted, we're talking about a mountain railroad like the Pittsburgh Division, except only two tracks wide. And there was definitely enough traffic to go around, all the way past the PC merger (remember, this carried all the freights to Columbus, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, and St. Louis, plus all the passenger trains to the same points). Added to the grades, sidehill construction, and heavy earthwork/stonework/bridgework of this line, the territory east of Coshocton offers brickworks, clay sewer pipe plants, fairly wretched Appalachian roads and housing, and at least two Wheeling and Lake Erie (NKP) interchanges. Not much online coal, but the mother lode -- the Cadiz Branch -- goes off the Panhandle near its east end to get it by the trainload. Finally, for those with strong stomachs, the line debouches east into the Ohio Valley via a gauntleted tunnel in Gould's Hollow, coming out at Mingo Junction with its yards, roundhouse, and steel mills. For those who want to run long trains through some godawful hills on a PRR-style track plant, this part of the Panhandle is a natural. And (extra advantage), you can model it just about any way you see fit. So few fans have been up that way, and there are so few pictures of all this (the roads don't parallel parts of it) that you are relatively safe. In fact, most PRR fans east of Altoona aren't really sure this line exists -- it's more of a rumor. How often do you get a modeling deal like that? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_144.12bc55d3.2c0d566d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 5/31/03 12:47:23 PM Eastern Dayligh= t Time, pennsy@sover.net writes:


If you feel there are selected=20= points that should receive special
consideration, I would appreciate your input. At this time Columbus is
looking like the starting point the planning,ie. many choices!!
Have followed the threads on the Penn Texas>>Manhattan Ltd., as well a= s the
topical mention of Columbus as main area of modeling. If anything comes to mind, please send a note, it will be incorporated in the planning.
Many thanks>>>Fred in Vt.


Hi Fred,

As a modeler for 40 years or so, as well as having spent time at the remains= major sites on Pennsy's Lines West, you will find that I have a healthy res= pect for the hugeness of most of PRR's mainline facilities.  You've out= lined three or four different PRR routes, any one of which would be a monstr= ous handful even in N scale with plenty of space.

As you may have realized from some of my posting, I have concluded that nobo= dy has room for even one faithfully-reproduced PRR division point yard, at l= east not in HO.  The choices seem to be:
1. model a secondary line, like the main ADAMS to NEWMAN (Fort Wayne to Rich= mond)
2. model some small towns on a main, one of which has a local yard to exchan= ge blocks with through trains (I did this last layout)
3.  cheat and model just one end of a major yard facility.  That's= my current proposal for modeling Columbus -- essentially model the part bet= ween two major highway overpasses.

I tend to count the complexity of a model railroad in the number of switches= used (my mentor used to bounce back yard track plans if they used more than= 13 switches).  As layout designers/builders, our job is to trade off c= omplexity (thus cost and pain) for believability.  Thus, each of us nee= ds to evaluate:

1. What freight and/or passenger traffic is the most attractive to us? = Dayton-Xenia-Columbus is my hometown and college experience.
2. What ultimate space could be used to tell this story?  I have a new=20= 2100 sq. ft. basement -- can go around all 4 walls and also have full use of= the space inside.
3. How large a piece of the railroad can fit in this space (a town, several=20= towns, 30 miles of railroad?).  I've decided that the 55 miles between=20= Columbus and Xenia is either enough, or too much.
4.  How much can I scale down a chunk of the railroad successfully?&nbs= p; This is my biggest worry -- Columbus from the station east was an enormou= s plant, and I'd like to avoid caricaturing it.
5.  Am I going to restage each train after it runs, or can I run them b= ack out later as another schedule?  I'll do some of both -- the main we= st to Chicago will return from the east as the main from Pittsburgh.  B= ut the Cincinnati and Dayton/Indy/St. Louis traffic will have to be manually= turned in single-ended staging yards.
6.  Once I have "the plan", how can I cut it up into phases of construc= tion so at least a little operation starts early, and then subsequent additi= ons expand the layout's capabilities and add variety?  My particular pl= an is to set up the off-layout loop early.  Next I'll build part of the= Columbus facilities, and then I'll add Pittsburgh and Chicago staging to pr= ove out yard throughput.  Finally, I'll start west toward Xenia, creati= ng a territory of small town industries, grain elevators, and local freight=20= work.

As indicated, your first step may be a healthy brainstorming of which line's= traffic you will enjoy the most.  And as you go through the design pro= cess, don't be afraid to revisit your two or three best alternatives. =20= Building and maintaining a layout is a lot of work, and you want the end pro= duct to justify all your efforts.

Endnote freebie:
If I were cut free of all my local associations with western Ohio, and parti= cularly if I were not interested in maximizing local freight operations, I w= ould consider the country-running, hill climbing, double track territories o= f either the Eastern Division or the Panhandle Division in eastern Ohio.&nbs= p; The Panhandle used to have ten tunnels, and even after most were daylight= ed, we're talking about a mountain railroad like the Pittsburgh Division, ex= cept only two tracks wide.  And there was definitely enough traffic to=20= go around, all the way past the PC merger (remember, this carried all the fr= eights to Columbus, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, and St. Louis, plus all the pa= ssenger trains to the same points).  Added to the grades, sidehill cons= truction, and heavy earthwork/stonework/bridgework of this line, the territo= ry east of Coshocton offers brickworks, clay sewer pipe plants, fairly wretc= hed Appalachian roads and housing, and at least two Wheeling and Lake Erie (= NKP) interchanges.  Not much online coal, but the mother lode -- the Ca= diz Branch -- goes off the Panhandle near its east end to get it by the trai= nload.  Finally, for those with strong stomachs, the line debouches eas= t into the Ohio Valley via a gauntleted tunnel in Gould's Hollow, coming out= at Mingo Junction with its yards, roundhouse, and steel mills.

For those who want to run long trains through some godawful hills on a PRR-s= tyle track plant, this part of the Panhandle is a natural.  And (extra=20= advantage), you can model it just about any way you see fit.  So few fa= ns have been up that way, and there are so few pictures of all this (the roa= ds don't parallel parts of it) that you are relatively safe.  In fact,=20= most PRR fans east of Altoona aren't really sure this line exists -- it's mo= re of a rumor.  How often do you get a modeling deal like that?

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_144.12bc55d3.2c0d566d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 21:39:59 EDT Subject: [PRR] Columbus Union Station layout --part1_a6.38537db5.2c0d566f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/31/03 5:16:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > > From: Rick C. Stone > To: PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 9:09 PM > Subject: Re: [PennsyWest] Some modeling intentions... > > > Rick and fellow listers > > I'm working on the same area but I' limiting focus to a couple of miles > either > side of Union station (being a devoted passenger freak). I'm also > focusing on > 1950 to get the maximum number of passenger trains and the largest > variation of > cars. > > I found a source of valuation maps for the area and am poring over them > now. > They are from 1922 so there are a lot more industries than I ever saw. > They are > available for only about a dollar a page from Apex Research Inc. > (tyloman87@attbi.com) tell them I sent you. > > Some of the highlight are: > > Union Station Vol. 1 Pgs 65-66 > Spruce St Engine facility Vol. 1 Pgs 61-62 > Freight Houses Vol. 1 Pg 67 > Lines West back shop Vol. 4 Pg 363 > Stock pens Vol. 4 Pg 384 > > I would like somebody to look at Vol. 1 Pg 79 Just east of the station and > under > the 4th St. viaduct and tell me I don't have to build one track with > twenty slip > switches in it. I can verify that, circa 1968, there were still a lot of slip switches on the east throat of Columbus Union Station. For some reason, these were manually operated -- I think there was a small mob of switchmen directed by US tower (via loudspeaker?) that worked the east throat, where converging tracks from the platforms met diverging tracks to all the routes east and north, plus tracks into the trimmer (west) end of Yard B's hump bowl. Sometime in early Conrail years, this tangle was reduced and a new (remoted) interlocking named Grant was built, tying the few remaining tracks together. Note: "US", probably originally meaning meaning Union Station, was replaced by "Grant". But also U.S.Grant was one of 6? 7? Presidents born in Ohio, and thus was "one of the stars in Ohio's crown". Back to track planning -- since every one of my track charts, drawings, and maps shows a different track layout for Columbus Union Station, I'm dying to see how much you elect to simplify it for modeling purposes. One thing I haven't yet learned for sure -- did headend equipment off trains here have to be switched across the NYC main on the north side of CUS to get to the Railway Express building? I think the tracks south of CUS were first two main tracks bypassing the platforms, then a produce yard on land originally belonging to the Little Miami Railroad (or LMRR-Columbus & Xenia). Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_a6.38537db5.2c0d566f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 5/31/03 5:16:06 AM Eastern Daylight= Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes:



  From: Rick C. Stone
  To: PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 9:09 PM
  Subject: Re: [PennsyWest] Some modeling intentions...


  Rick and fellow listers

  I'm working on the same area but I' limiting focus to a couple of mil= es either
  side of Union station (being a devoted passenger freak).  I'm al= so focusing on
  1950 to get the maximum number of passenger trains and the largest va= riation of
  cars.

  I found a source of valuation maps for the area and am poring over th= em now.
  They are from 1922 so there are a lot more industries than I ever saw= .  They are
  available for only about a dollar a page from Apex Research Inc.
  (tyloman87@attbi.com) tell them I sent you.

  Some of the highlight are:

  Union Station  Vol. 1 Pgs 65-66
  Spruce St Engine facility Vol. 1 Pgs 61-62
  Freight Houses  Vol. 1 Pg 67
  Lines West back shop Vol. 4 Pg 363
  Stock pens  Vol. 4 Pg 384

  I would like somebody to look at Vol. 1 Pg 79 Just east of the statio= n and under
  the 4th St. viaduct and tell me I don't have to build one track with=20= twenty slip
  switches in it.


I can verify that, circa 1968, there were still a lot of slip switches on th= e east throat of Columbus Union Station.  For some reason, these were m= anually operated -- I think there was a small mob of switchmen directed by U= S tower (via loudspeaker?) that worked the east throat, where converging tra= cks from the platforms met diverging tracks to all the routes east and north= , plus tracks into the trimmer (west) end of Yard B's hump bowl.

Sometime in early Conrail years, this tangle was reduced and a new (remoted)= interlocking named Grant was built, tying the few remaining tracks together= .  Note: "US", probably originally meaning meaning Union Station, was r= eplaced by "Grant".  But also U.S.Grant was one of 6? 7? Presidents bor= n in Ohio, and thus was "one of the stars in Ohio's crown".

Back to track planning -- since every one of my track charts, drawings, and=20= maps shows a different track layout for Columbus Union Station, I'm dying to= see how much you elect to simplify it for modeling purposes.

One thing I haven't yet learned for sure -- did headend equipment off trains= here have to be switched across the NYC main on the north side of CUS to ge= t to the Railway Express building?  I think the tracks south of CUS wer= e first two main tracks bypassing the platforms, then a produce yard on land= originally belonging to the Little Miami Railroad (or LMRR-Columbus & X= enia).

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_a6.38537db5.2c0d566f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://list Subject: Re: [PRR] Branchline X43C's Shadow Keystone Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 18:48:37 -0700 Pool assignment would almost certainly mean auto parts service. The return to Indianapolis would be the empty route, and the question would be where the car went loaded. The PRR served many auto assembly plants -- two that come to mind are in Linden, NJ and Newark, DE. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian J Carlson" To: ; "PRR Talk" Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 6:32 PM Subject: [PRR] Branchline X43C's Shadow Keystone > I was just about to start assembly on the 4 PRR X43C boxcars I have in the > Shadow Keystone. I noticed all the cars had "Return to Indianapolis Indiana" > and the numbers 195 (pool assignment?) above the Pennsylvania. Before I > build them I was wondering if anyone could tell me what assigned service > these cars were used in. I would like to find out if they would make a > regular appearance on my corner of the Pennsy. > > Brian J Carlson > Cheektowaga NY > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ALGUCKES@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 22:12:42 EDT Subject: [PRR] Waynesburg & Washington --part1_f6.2cb10925.2c0d5e1a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The approximately 1/24 scale LGB Mogul is very clase to the Waynesburg & Washinton locomotive. In fact LGB even issued it in a shade of "not quite" tuscan red. However, when the locomotive was lettered for the Pennsylvania I think it was black, not red. At any rate check the LGB loco against pictures of the W& W locomotive. Also I think there is a picture in the book or one of the articles in Narrow Gauge & Shortline Gazette of a boxcar lettered for the Pennsy that looks like the lettering scheme used on the early G scale Bachmann "wooden" box car. Al Guckes --part1_f6.2cb10925.2c0d5e1a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The approximately 1/24 scale LGB Mogul is ver= y clase to the Waynesburg & Washinton locomotive. In fact LGB even issue= d it in a shade of "not quite" tuscan red. However, when the locomotive was=20= lettered for the Pennsylvania I think it was black, not red. At any rate che= ck the LGB loco against pictures of the W&W locomotive. Also I think the= re is a picture in the book or one of the articles in Narrow Gauge & Sho= rtline Gazette of a boxcar lettered for the Pennsy that looks like the lette= ring scheme used on the early G scale Bachmann "wooden" box car.

Al Guckes --part1_f6.2cb10925.2c0d5e1a_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Laird" Subject: [PRR] PRR Narrow Gauge Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 21:45:05 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C32950.3A73DCA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Many thanks to all who posted replys to my inquiry yesterday regarding = Pennsy narrow gauge operations. Based on replys to my inquiry I have = found a two page section in Pennsy Power III on narrow gauge operations = and list member Jim Weinschenker has responded with loads of information = on the Waynesburg and Washington. Thanks again, this list is a fantastic source of PRR information. Bill Laird Canyon Lake, TX =20 ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C32950.3A73DCA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Many thanks to all who posted replys to my inquiry = yesterday=20 regarding Pennsy narrow gauge operations.  Based on replys to my = inquiry I=20 have found a two page section in Pennsy Power III on narrow gauge = operations and=20 list member Jim Weinschenker has responded with loads of information on = the=20 Waynesburg and Washington.
 
Thanks again, this list is a fantastic source = of PRR=20 information.
 
Bill Laird
Canyon Lake, TX
 
------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C32950.3A73DCA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alex Charyna" Subject: [PRR] Phoenixville Area Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 18:57:43 -0800 Does anyone have track diagrams of the Phoenixville area? I know it went double track through the station, and single wye connection to the Frazer branch. There was also some track into the steel mill as well. Any other facilities? I'm planning on modelling the Schuylkill Branch. I've found interlocking diagrams of CREEK and BROOKE (on either side). Any info or leads would be appreciated.... thanks. -alex ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 07:35:41 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR -- and L&N -- in Cincinnati --part1_1aa.155ea10c.2c0de20d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/2/03 7:54:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lnrr@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 8 > Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 19:08:00 EDT > From: StuThayer@aol.com > Subject: Re: Train Masters > > In a message dated 6/1/03 4:10:57 PM Mountain Daylight Time, lnrr@juno.com > writes: > > > > Some PRR Trainmasters lasted long enough to get Penn Central road > > numbers. Don't know if they ever made it to Kentucky. > > > > > > Brian, > > I mentioned the PRR Trainmasters due to the fact that there is continuing > debate as to whether any of them made it to Cincinnati. However, it is very > > doubtful that they would have ever come across the river into Kentucky if > they did > in fact make it to Cincinnati. A possibility of what you may have seen is > some L&N units on a transfer run to the PRR at Undercliff yard passing along > > side a PRR H24-66 working the yard. > > Stuart Thayer > Modeling the Appalachian Coal Fields > Having just gone through all the Cincinnati materials at hand, I'm going to say that Pennsy Trainmasters were photographed in Columbus, but not in Cincinnati. There is a photo caption in a Pennsy Diesel Years that has this wrong, but the local fans are on board with me. Best info I have is that Columbus had Trainmasters until about 1967 (a year after the renumbering), then the survivor (Stu KNOWS which one I mean) went to 59th Street Chicago. I'll also state (provisionally) that there aren't photos of any PRR 6-motor on its way to DeCoursey. But photos of any PRR transfers to DeCoursey are scarce. NYC power, several kinds. DT&I (after Conrail), you bet. But not Pennsy. An interesting vacancy. OTOH, even I took pix of L&N power handling transfers at Undercliff (eastern Cincinnati). Did any others on the list shoot there? Or could you not drag yourselves away from the three ring circus of railroads lying in all directions from Cincinnati Union Terminal in the Mill Creek Valley? Rick Tipton Remembering the Old Reliable, and its connections with the Pennsylvania Railroad at Cincinnati and Louisville --part1_1aa.155ea10c.2c0de20d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/2/03 7:54:46 AM Eastern Daylight=20= Time, lnrr@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 8
   Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 19:08:00 EDT
   From: StuThayer@aol.com
Subject: Re: Train Masters

In a message dated 6/1/03 4:10:57 PM Mountain Daylight Time, lnrr@juno.com <= BR> writes:


> Some PRR Trainmasters lasted long enough to get Penn Central road
> numbers. Don't know if they ever made it to Kentucky.
>
>

Brian,

I mentioned the PRR Trainmasters due to the fact that there is continuing debate as to whether any of them made it to Cincinnati.  However, it is= very
doubtful that they would have ever come across the river into Kentucky if th= ey did
in fact make it to Cincinnati.  A possibility of what you may have seen= is
some L&N units on a transfer run to the PRR at Undercliff yard passing a= long
side a PRR H24-66 working the yard.

Stuart Thayer
Modeling the Appalachian Coal Fields


Having just gone through all the Cincinnati materials at hand, I'm going to=20= say that Pennsy Trainmasters were photographed in Columbus, but not in Cinci= nnati.  There is a photo caption in a Pennsy Diesel Years that has this= wrong, but the local fans are on board with me.  Best info I have is t= hat Columbus had Trainmasters until about 1967 (a year after the renumbering= ), then the survivor (Stu KNOWS which one I mean) went to 59th Street Chicag= o.

I'll also state (provisionally) that there aren't photos of any PRR 6-motor=20= on its way to DeCoursey.  But photos of any PRR transfers to DeCoursey=20= are scarce.  NYC power, several kinds.  DT&I (after Conrail),=20= you bet.  But not Pennsy.  An interesting vacancy.

OTOH, even I took pix of L&N power handling transfers at Undercliff (eas= tern Cincinnati).  Did any others on the list shoot there?  Or cou= ld you not drag yourselves away from the three ring circus of railroads lyin= g in all directions from Cincinnati Union Terminal in the Mill Creek Valley?=

Rick Tipton
Remembering the Old Reliable, and its connections with the Pennsylvania Rail= road at Cincinnati and Louisville --part1_1aa.155ea10c.2c0de20d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] P2K SDd-45 Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 13:07:55 +0000 Got the New MR yesterday and P2K has a full page ad touting their SD-45. I don't recall hearing anything about P2K and an SD-45. Does anyone know anything about it? How does it stack up against the Kato and the Bachman? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 09:19:33 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] P2K SDd-45 From: Jerry Britton On 6/3/03 9:07 AM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > Got the New MR yesterday and P2K has a full page ad touting their SD-45. I > don't recall hearing anything about P2K and an SD-45. Does anyone know > anything about it? How does it stack up against the Kato and the Bachman? The SD45 from Life Like Proto was announced months ago. Before the Kato unit even arrived. (Merchandise Service has had it on the A/R page since its announcement.) The LL Proto will likely compare to the Kato, but will surpass the Bachmann. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Repack Stencils Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 14:31:37 +0000 Todd Horten asked: While looking through some freight cars photos I noticed what appears to be a PRR repack stencil. As best as I can tell it reads: RPKG EV 2-16-51 PRR. Can anyone verify that this is a PRR location and if so where? I just thought it unusual to find a PRR stencil on this particular car. Can't speak to where "EV" represents, but I can say that repacking journals for foreign freight cars is a common practice. Think about it - it's in any railroad's best interest to prevent hotboxes, and keeping journals freshly packed on a regular basis is a good start. If I might ask, what would make a PRR repack stencil unusual on this particular car? Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Repack Stencils Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 11:06:50 -0400 Repacking foreign freight cars was a very profitable venue for the PRR. Wilkes Barre (Buttonwood Shop) had a very high volume of interchange cars pass through from the LV, Erie, DL&W, CNJ and D&H. Every car was inspected and any car that was shopped for any reason that was overdue for repack (4 years) received that attention. The owning road was then billed according to AAR rules. During my watch, the Buttonwood Shop actually made money (i.e. netted a profit)so that the cost to the Pennsy was zero for meeting the shop forces payroll every month. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of b.hom@att.net Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 10:32 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Repack Stencils Todd Horten asked: While looking through some freight cars photos I noticed what appears to be a PRR repack stencil. As best as I can tell it reads: RPKG EV 2-16-51 PRR. Can anyone verify that this is a PRR location and if so where? I just thought it unusual to find a PRR stencil on this particular car. Can't speak to where "EV" represents, but I can say that repacking journals for foreign freight cars is a common practice. Think about it - it's in any railroad's best interest to prevent hotboxes, and keeping journals freshly packed on a regular basis is a good start. If I might ask, what would make a PRR repack stencil unusual on this particular car? Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 14:00:09 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Repack Stencils --part1_7a.410bfe6f.2c0e3c29_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/3/03 10:29:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, b.hom@att.net writes: > > Can't speak to where "EV" represents, but I can say that repacking journals > for > foreign freight cars is a common practice. Think about it - it's in any > railroad's best interest to prevent hotboxes, and keeping journals freshly > packed on a regular basis is a good start. If I might ask, what would make > a > PRR repack stencil unusual on this particular car? > > > Ben Hom > Ben, this repack stencil appears on a Central of Georgia 2 bay offset side hopper. Considering that the CG had on line coal mines in the Birmingham area I just thought it unusual to see it that far from home. Todd Horton --part1_7a.410bfe6f.2c0e3c29_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/3/03 10:29:48 AM Eastern Daylight= Time, b.hom@att.net writes:



Can't speak to where "EV" represents, but I can say that repacking journals=20= for
foreign freight cars is a common practice.  Think about it - it's in an= y
railroad's best interest to prevent hotboxes, and keeping journals freshly <= BR> packed on a regular basis is a good start.  If I might ask, what would=20= make a
PRR repack stencil unusual on this particular car?


Ben Hom


Ben, this repack stencil appears on a Central of Georgia 2 bay offset side h= opper. Considering that the CG had on line coal mines in the Birmingham area= I just thought it unusual to see it that far from home. Todd Horton<= /HTML> --part1_7a.410bfe6f.2c0e3c29_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 14:02:39 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Repack Stencils --part1_138.2085235c.2c0e3cbf_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/3/03 10:58:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com writes: > Repacking foreign freight cars was a very profitable venue for the PRR. > Wilkes Barre (Buttonwood Shop) had a very high volume of interchange > cars pass through from the LV, Erie, DL&W, CNJ and D&H. Every car was > inspected and any car that was shopped for any reason that was overdue > for repack (4 years) received that attention. The owning road was then > billed according to AAR rules. > > During my watch, the Buttonwood Shop actually made money (i.e. netted a > profit)so that the cost to the Pennsy was zero for meeting the shop > forces payroll every month. > > WDV > > Bill, did the Buttonwood shop use and abbreviation for it's location? Any idea how many shops the Pennsy had that could have performed repacking? Todd Horton --part1_138.2085235c.2c0e3cbf_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/3/03 10:58:04 AM Eastern Daylight= Time, bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com writes:


Repacking foreign freight cars=20= was a very profitable venue for the PRR.
Wilkes Barre (Buttonwood Shop) had a very high volume of interchange
cars pass through from the LV, Erie, DL&W, CNJ and D&H.  Every=20= car was
inspected and any car that was shopped for any reason that was overdue
for repack (4 years) received that attention.  The owning road was then=
billed according to AAR rules.

During my watch, the Buttonwood Shop actually made money (i.e. netted a
profit)so that the cost to the Pennsy was zero for meeting the shop
forces payroll every month.

WDV



Bill, did the Buttonwood shop use and abbreviation for it's location? Any id= ea how many shops the Pennsy had that could have performed repacking? Todd H= orton --part1_138.2085235c.2c0e3cbf_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Repack Stencils Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 14:40:51 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C329DE.2217A7C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have long since forgotton the repack codes. Northumberland was NDE. On the Northern Region we had shops repacking at Elmira, Williamsport, Buttonwood, Northumberland, Renovo, Olean, Buffalo, Oil City, and Erie. There was a small rip track at Phillipston but they did not do repacks, only in emergency. Central Region had them at Shire Oaks, East Altoona, Conemaugh, Pitcairn, Scully, Lewistown, Conway, Steubenville, Wheatland etc. that I can recall. There were literally dozens of places. That's enough memory taxation for today! -----Original Message----- From: CENTGA@aol.com [mailto:CENTGA@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 2:03 PM To: bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com; b.hom@att.net; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Repack Stencils In a message dated 6/3/03 10:58:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com writes: Repacking foreign freight cars was a very profitable venue for the PRR. Wilkes Barre (Buttonwood Shop) had a very high volume of interchange cars pass through from the LV, Erie, DL&W, CNJ and D&H. Every car was inspected and any car that was shopped for any reason that was overdue for repack (4 years) received that attention. The owning road was then billed according to AAR rules. During my watch, the Buttonwood Shop actually made money (i.e. netted a profit)so that the cost to the Pennsy was zero for meeting the shop forces payroll every month. WDV Bill, did the Buttonwood shop use and abbreviation for it's location? Any idea how many shops the Pennsy had that could have performed repacking? Todd Horton ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C329DE.2217A7C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
I have=20 long since forgotton the repack codes.  Northumberland was = NDE.  On=20 the Northern Region we had shops repacking at Elmira, Williamsport, = Buttonwood,=20 Northumberland, Renovo, Olean, Buffalo, Oil City, and Erie.  There = was a=20 small rip track at Phillipston but they did not do repacks, only in=20 emergency.
 
Central Region had them at Shire Oaks, East = Altoona,=20 Conemaugh, Pitcairn, Scully, Lewistown, Conway, Steubenville, Wheatland=20 etc. that I can recall.  There were literally dozens of=20 places.
 
That's=20 enough memory taxation for today!
-----Original Message-----
From: = CENTGA@aol.com=20 [mailto:CENTGA@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 2:03=20 PM
To: bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com; b.hom@att.net;=20 prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Repack=20 Stencils

In a message dated 6/3/03 = 10:58:04 AM=20 Eastern Daylight Time, bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com = writes:


Repacking foreign freight cars was a very profitable = venue for=20 the PRR.
Wilkes Barre (Buttonwood Shop) had a very high volume of = interchange
cars pass through from the LV, Erie, DL&W, CNJ = and=20 D&H.  Every car was
inspected and any car that was = shopped for=20 any reason that was overdue
for repack (4 years) received that=20 attention.  The owning road was then
billed according to AAR = rules.

During my watch, the Buttonwood Shop actually made = money (i.e.=20 netted a
profit)so that the cost to the Pennsy was zero for = meeting the=20 shop
forces payroll every=20 month.

WDV



Bill, did the Buttonwood = shop=20 use and abbreviation for it's location? Any idea how many shops the = Pennsy had=20 that could have performed repacking? Todd Horton=20 ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C329DE.2217A7C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 16:24:55 -0400 From: "Richard Poole" Subject: [PRR] FP-7a LETTERING QUESTION PRR TALK, Finishing up a model of the 9833, a PRR, FP-7a painted TUSCAN with five stripes. Can anyone tell me if their was anything written on the rear door? The "FP" units had operational steam generators inside the rear door and I was wondering if anything was stenceled on the door, such as "Danger 600 Volts, Watch Your Step, Fire Extinguisher Inside, Etc!! THANKS!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] FP-7a LETTERING QUESTION Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 16:59:42 -0400 I personally can't imagine where 600 Volts would come from (or a decal stating that). The only units I ever recall seeing with "Fire Extinguisher" decals were the E-44s. I remember them well, because the first time we took them through the diesel washer at Enola, they all bled off. Never saw a Watch Your Step decal on anything. I believe you would be pretty close if you just painted the door Tuscan Red. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Richard Poole Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 4:25 PM To: PRR TALK Subject: [PRR] FP-7a LETTERING QUESTION PRR TALK, Finishing up a model of the 9833, a PRR, FP-7a painted TUSCAN with five stripes. Can anyone tell me if their was anything written on the rear door? The "FP" units had operational steam generators inside the rear door and I was wondering if anything was stenceled on the door, such as "Danger 600 Volts, Watch Your Step, Fire Extinguisher Inside, Etc!! THANKS!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill" Subject: [PRR] Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 18:06:40 -0400 Hello all Im looking for a P2K E7 pennsy A or B, color not important, powered or not, any one have one for sale ? Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 07:36:10 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 06/02/03 --part1_1ea.a237ade.2c0f33aa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/2/03 10:40:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Branchline X43C's Shadow Keystone > From: "John Bruce" > Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 18:48:37 -0700 > > Pool assignment would almost certainly mean auto parts service. The return > to Indianapolis would be the empty route, and the question would be where > the car went loaded. The PRR served many auto assembly plants -- two that > come to mind are in Linden, NJ and Newark, DE. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian J Carlson" > To: ; "PRR Talk" > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 6:32 PM > Subject: [PRR] Branchline X43C's Shadow Keystone > > > > I was just about to start assembly on the 4 PRR X43C boxcars I have in the > > Shadow Keystone. I noticed all the cars had "Return to Indianapolis > Indiana" > > and the numbers 195 (pool assignment?) above the Pennsylvania. Before I > > build them I was wondering if anyone could tell me what assigned service > > these cars were used in. I would like to find out if they would make a > > regular appearance on my corner of the Pennsy. > > > > Brian J Carlson > The numbered pool suggests, but does not guarantee, an auto parts pool outbound from Indy. However, my impression is that several appliance manufacturers, the RCA TV plant, and probably some food processors like Van Camp would have had XML 40' boxes assigned to them, at least until newer 50' or larger dedicated equipment took over in later years. The X43B would have been prized by their assigned shippers for their 8' doorways, making lift truck loading easier. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_1ea.a237ade.2c0f33aa_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/2/03 10:40:02 PM Eastern Daylight= Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Re: [PRR] Branchline X= 43C's Shadow Keystone
From: "John Bruce" <j.bruce@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 18:48:37 -0700

Pool assignment would almost certainly mean auto parts service.  =20= The return
to Indianapolis would be the empty route, and the question would be where the car went loaded.  The PRR served many auto assembly plants -- two t= hat
come to mind are in Linden, NJ and Newark, DE.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian J Carlson" <brian@net.bluemoon.net>
To: <PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com>; "PRR Talk" <prr-talk@dsop.com&g= t;
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 6:32 PM
Subject: [PRR] Branchline X43C's Shadow Keystone


> I was just about to start assembly on the 4 PRR X43C boxcars I have in=20= the
> Shadow Keystone. I noticed all the cars had "Return to Indianapolis
Indiana"
> and the numbers 195 (pool assignment?) above the Pennsylvania.  Be= fore I
> build them I was wondering if anyone could tell me what assigned servic= e
> these cars were used in.  I would like to find out if they would m= ake a
> regular appearance on my corner of the Pennsy.
>
> Brian J Carlson


The numbered pool suggests, but does not guarantee, an auto parts pool outbo= und from Indy.  However, my impression is that several appliance manufa= cturers, the RCA TV plant, and probably some food processors like Van Camp w= ould have had XML 40' boxes assigned to them, at least until newer 50' or la= rger dedicated equipment took over in later years.

The X43B would have been prized by their assigned shippers for their 8' door= ways, making lift truck loading easier.


Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_1ea.a237ade.2c0f33aa_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] Return Route Subject Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 07:58:35 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C32A6F.19C6C7E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Many Rail Freight Cars are used in a Return Route sequence. I have seen = a Grain Car stenciled Return to and a company in Cape May, NJ for Fish = Meal Loading only. I have seen many many Grain Loading Cars stenciled this way also with = the Return Route message.A return route car could be used for any = product, not just Auto Parts. Lee ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C32A6F.19C6C7E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Many Rail Freight Cars are used in a Return Route sequence. I have = seen a=20 Grain Car stenciled Return to and a company in Cape May, NJ for Fish = Meal=20 Loading only.
 
I have seen many many Grain Loading Cars stenciled this way also = with the=20 Return Route message.A return route car could be used for any product, = not just=20 Auto Parts.
 
Lee
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C32A6F.19C6C7E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 07:53:02 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Problems with Walthers R50B Morning Gang, I wanted to ask y'all a quick question - I have gotten two two-packs of the post-war R50B reefers. These are packed in idividual boxes within the two-pack box and when I looked in them for the parts bag, I only found it in one box. The baggie has only two "X2F" couplers and it looks to have the same number of grabs as the baggie from my single R50B. I haven't bothered to count out all the grabs yet, so...does anyone know if there are enough grabs in one baggie for two cars? Or did Walthers not get enough baggies in the boxes? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 09:37:03 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Problems with Walthers R50B That was my observation too. You will be relieved to know that the bag contains parts for 2 cars :-) The only people shorted are those still using horn-hook couplers and the odds are that neither of them care ;-) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "Bruce F. Smith" wrote: > Morning Gang, > > I wanted to ask y'all a quick question - I have gotten two two-packs of the > post-war R50B reefers. These are packed in idividual boxes within the > two-pack box and when I looked in them for the parts bag, I only found it > in one box. The baggie has only two "X2F" couplers and it looks to have > the same number of grabs as the baggie from my single R50B. I haven't > bothered to count out all the grabs yet, so...does anyone know if there are > enough grabs in one baggie for two cars? Or did Walthers not get enough > baggies in the boxes? > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 08:55:30 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Problems with Walthers R50B >That was my observation too. You will be relieved to know that the bag >contains >parts for 2 cars :-) The only people shorted are those still using horn-hook >couplers and the odds are that neither of them care ;-) > >Regards, > >Andy Miller >asmiller@mitre.org Thanks!! I'll be happy to send mine to either of those people! BTW, my "plans" for these cars include complete brake detail, modification of the coupler pads to allow closer coupling, and perhaps replacement of the strikers with something more functional that will also allow closer coupling. Some olive paint on the trucks and underbody a ton of weathering and I'll be all set! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Problems with Walthers R50B Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 14:12:36 +0000 Andy Miller wrote: The only people shorted are those still using horn-hook couplers and the odds are that neither of them care ;-) Thousands of years from now, archaeologists will be puzzled by the discovery of millions of small misshapen pieces of Derlin present in landfills across North America... Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pgrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] Problems with Walthers R50B Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 15:31:53 +0100 Just America?? In the UK as well Patrick Grace www.prr.org.uk www.scanrailsoc.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 3:12 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Problems with Walthers R50B > Andy Miller wrote: > The only people shorted are those still using horn-hook > couplers and the odds are that neither of them care ;-) > > > Thousands of years from now, archaeologists will be puzzled by the discovery of > millions of small misshapen pieces of Derlin present in landfills across North > America... > > > Ben Hom > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 10:33:39 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] Horn-hook couplers (was:Problems with Walthers R50B) At the recent New England Prototype Modelers Meet, I gave a clinic on "Tricks with Kadee Couplers". When I told someone that I was going to be speaking on the topic he asked whether I know of any good ideas for horn-hook couplers. HA! There's an opening! However, I thought it only fair to come up with one. SO here goes: Build an industry on your layout that recycles scrap plastic. It's output is pellets in covered hoppers and for input it takes gondola loads of the numerous horn-hook coupler we have all collected ;-) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== b.hom@att.net wrote: > Andy Miller wrote: > The only people shorted are those still using horn-hook > couplers and the odds are that neither of them care ;-) > > Thousands of years from now, archaeologists will be puzzled by the discovery of > millions of small misshapen pieces of Derlin present in landfills across North > America... > > Ben Hom -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: X43 assignments Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 08:19:29 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32AAC.B14D98E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi all; My list of assigned cars in auto parts service for the 60's does not include any X43's of any subclass. Not to say they weren't assigned there in the 50's, but still not very likely, as 40 footers were not preferred for that service (and I think the auto manufacturers pretty much dictated what they wanted) after the 40's. Interestingly, there were still some X31's in auto loading service into the 60's. From what I've heard, there was still call for them in shipping imports (like Austin-Healeys) out of eastern ports like Baltimore. The vast majority of auto parts cars were 50 footers, with some odd X37's thrown in for auto panels, transmissions, and "miscellaneous". There were even a couple X26c's still doing that trade! Elden -----Original Message----- From: RickTipton@aol.com [mailto:RickTipton@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 4:36 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 06/02/03 In a message dated 6/2/03 10:40:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: Subject: Re: [PRR] Branchline X43C's Shadow Keystone From: "John Bruce" Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 18:48:37 -0700 Pool assignment would almost certainly mean auto parts service. The return to Indianapolis would be the empty route, and the question would be where the car went loaded. The PRR served many auto assembly plants -- two that come to mind are in Linden, NJ and Newark, DE. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian J Carlson" To: ; "PRR Talk" Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 6:32 PM Subject: [PRR] Branchline X43C's Shadow Keystone > I was just about to start assembly on the 4 PRR X43C boxcars I have in the > Shadow Keystone. I noticed all the cars had "Return to Indianapolis Indiana" > and the numbers 195 (pool assignment?) above the Pennsylvania. Before I > build them I was wondering if anyone could tell me what assigned service > these cars were used in. I would like to find out if they would make a > regular appearance on my corner of the Pennsy. > > Brian J Carlson The numbered pool suggests, but does not guarantee, an auto parts pool outbound from Indy. However, my impression is that several appliance manufacturers, the RCA TV plant, and probably some food processors like Van Camp would have had XML 40' boxes assigned to them, at least until newer 50' or larger dedicated equipment took over in later years. The X43B would have been prized by their assigned shippers for their 8' doorways, making lift truck loading easier. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32AAC.B14D98E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi all;
My list of assigned cars in auto parts service for the 60's does not include any X43's of any subclass.  Not to say they weren't assigned there in the 50's, but still not very likely, as 40 footers were not preferred for that service (and I think the auto manufacturers pretty much dictated what they wanted) after the 40's.
Interestingly, there were still some X31's in auto loading service into the 60's.  From what I've heard, there was still call for them in shipping imports (like Austin-Healeys) out of eastern ports like Baltimore.  The vast majority of auto parts cars were 50 footers, with some odd X37's thrown in for auto panels, transmissions, and "miscellaneous".  There were even a couple X26c's still doing that trade!
Elden
-----Original Message-----
From: RickTipton@aol.com [mailto:RickTipton@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 4:36 AM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 06/02/03

In a message dated 6/2/03 10:40:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Re: [PRR] Branchline X43C's Shadow Keystone
From: "John Bruce" <j.bruce@gte.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 18:48:37 -0700

Pool assignment would almost certainly mean auto parts service.   The return
to Indianapolis would be the empty route, and the question would be where
the car went loaded.  The PRR served many auto assembly plants -- two that
come to mind are in Linden, NJ and Newark, DE.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian J Carlson" <brian@net.bluemoon.net>
To: <PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com>; "PRR Talk" <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 6:32 PM
Subject: [PRR] Branchline X43C's Shadow Keystone


> I was just about to start assembly on the 4 PRR X43C boxcars I have in the
> Shadow Keystone. I noticed all the cars had "Return to Indianapolis
Indiana"
> and the numbers 195 (pool assignment?) above the Pennsylvania.  Before I
> build them I was wondering if anyone could tell me what assigned service
> these cars were used in.  I would like to find out if they would make a
> regular appearance on my corner of the Pennsy.
>
> Brian J Carlson


The numbered pool suggests, but does not guarantee, an auto parts pool outbound from Indy.  However, my impression is that several appliance manufacturers, the RCA TV plant, and probably some food processors like Van Camp would have had XML 40' boxes assigned to them, at least until newer 50' or larger dedicated equipment took over in later years.

The X43B would have been prized by their assigned shippers for their 8' doorways, making lift truck loading easier.


Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West
------_=_NextPart_001_01C32AAC.B14D98E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50b's Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 12:02:04 -0400 This past weekend I purchased a Post-War Two Pack. I changed the McHenry Couplers to Kadees. There is only a slight problem. The plate holding the coupler in the box needs to be a quarter-turn looser than absolutely tight. This way the spring will still work. Just a little hint for everybody. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 12:08:03 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50b's From: Jerry Britton On 6/4/03 12:02 PM, John Frantz (johnf2384@suscom.net) wrote: > This past weekend I purchased a Post-War Two Pack. I > changed the McHenry Couplers to Kadees. There is only a > slight problem. The plate holding the coupler in the box > needs to be a quarter-turn looser than absolutely tight. > This way the spring will still work. Just a little hint > for everybody. > That's pretty much the case on any Kadee / MicroTrains (N scale) coupler installation. Tighten, then back off. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pennsy Nut" Subject: [PRR] Horn Hook Couplers Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 11:18:14 -0500 On the "serious" side. Has anyone ever found any use for them? Can they be melted? Melted, strung out like wire? And to keep this PRR, use this delrin wire on underbodies of PRR freight cars? Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 & Proud SPF > > The only people shorted are those still using horn-hook couplers and the odds are that neither of them care ;-)> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 14:49:50 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg Passenger Station From: Jerry Britton According to plans on file with the Library of Congress... http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/displayPhoto.pl?path=/pnp/habshaer/pa/pa0900/p a0995/sheet&topImages=00009a.gif&topLinks=00009r.tif,00009a.tif&title=&displ ayProfile=0 Two of the ten station tracks at Harrisburg were slightly lower than the other tracks. This would, presumably, put the car floor level at platform level for loading. These plans were posted as of when the station was restored in the early 1980's. Question: Were these two tracks in this lower position during the 1950's, or were they lowered later than that? (Were they always lower?) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Harrisburg Passenger Station Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 15:15:03 -0400 Jerry, When the station was restored in the 1980's high level platforms were put in. I remember taking the train to Harrisburg in the 60's and there were no platforms at floor level. From the drawing I can't tell what the height difference is between the 2 "lower" tracks and the rest. However since they didn't completely remove the old brick platforms when they put the high level ones in maybe a quick road trip to the station will answer your question. Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 2:50 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg Passenger Station According to plans on file with the Library of Congress... http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/displayPhoto.pl?path=/pnp/habshaer/pa/pa0900/p a0995/sheet&topImages=00009a.gif&topLinks=00009r.tif,00009a.tif&title=&displ ayProfile=0 Two of the ten station tracks at Harrisburg were slightly lower than the other tracks. This would, presumably, put the car floor level at platform level for loading. These plans were posted as of when the station was restored in the early 1980's. Question: Were these two tracks in this lower position during the 1950's, or were they lowered later than that? (Were they always lower?) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Reweigh Data (was: [PRR] Asking for assistance please?) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 19:18:48 +0000 Jim Panza wrote: If the car was weighed subsequent to the build date, the station weighing and stenciling the weights (LT. WT., LD LMT and CAPY) would be stenciled in place of NEW and the built date. Generally, cars were to be reweighed every 5 years or when the car was modified that changed the light weight between 300 and 500 pounds depending on the weight of the car. Most railroads used a two letter code to identify reweigh stations - the Pennsy was unique in using scale codes to identify reweigh stations. A PRR reweigh stencil would be in the following format: P57 12-51 The PXXX code identifies the scale, in this case, East Altoona. (No dashes in the scale code.) MM-YY indicates the reweigh date, December 1951. Rob Schoenberg has a complete lst of scale codes from a 1923 CT100E at http://prr.railfan.net/lists/track_scales_1923.html Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 15:24:39 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg Passenger Station Grettings to Jerry and the List: The depressed right of way that is shown in the drawing was a latter-day (late 1960s or early 70s) development that was part of an overall reduction of trackage in the station complex. Tracks 1 and 2 were removed and made into an auto and truck driveway. Track 3 was removed and Track 4 was centered and lowered to allow taller freight cars to pass beneath the st003 n's passenger bridge and baggage bridge. Track 4 was the freight access to and from the Cumberland Valley bridge/Cumberland Valley branch. Hagerstown-bound trains originating in Enola crossed Rockville Bridge and turned south, passing through Harrisburg before turning west on the CV bridge, and the same routing occurred in reverse. The need to lower a track for freight use became obvious when a loaded multilevel auto carrier was being switched through the station without (a) someone checking the clearances, or (b) someone remembering to check the clearances that had already been checked. A row of new autos on the upper level became unintended convertibles. Thus, the centered and lowered Track 4 was never meant to be used for passenger boarding, only for freight trains and for turning empty passenger equipment, as is now done daily by Amtrak. On rare occasions, an Amtrak Keystone Service train will arrive so late from Philadelphia that there's insufficient time to turn the equipment and back it in to a platform before the next scheduled eastward departure. When that happens, Amtrak boards the passengers on the inbound train, pulls west past Harris, backs through the station on Track 4 and around the CV wye and stops. After the operator at State throws the switch, the train then heads directly for Philly off the CV bridge. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 15:31:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg Passenger Station From: Jerry Britton On 6/4/03 3:24 PM, Dan Cupper (cupper@att.net) wrote: > The depressed right of way that is shown in the drawing was a latter-day > (late 1960s or early 70s) development that was part of an overall > reduction of trackage in the station complex. That just made my modeling a whole lot easier! > Track 4 > was the freight access to and from the Cumberland Valley > bridge/Cumberland Valley branch. Hagerstown-bound trains originating in > Enola crossed Rockville Bridge and turned south, passing through > Harrisburg before turning west on the CV bridge, and the same routing > occurred in reverse. Gee, and I already created a lie to do this routing on my layout! It really happened this way? Why? Why didn't they go east out of Enola to LEMO and head southwest? Such a route was there, albeit a sharp curve. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg Passenger Station Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 15:31:19 -0400 Jerry The change in grade doesn't look to be enough for vestibule-level loading. You would have to plot it out on a full D size sheet(34"X22") and scale the drawing manually to get the exact elevation from top of platform to ballast and existing ballast grade to (new) sub-ballast grade. Good Luck. Maybe some of the fellow drafters/architects can offer suggestions? John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 15:33:10 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg Passenger Station From: Jerry Britton On 6/4/03 3:31 PM, John Frantz (johnf2384@suscom.net) wrote: > The change in grade doesn't look to be enough for > vestibule-level loading. You would have to plot it out on > a full D size sheet(34"X22") and scale the drawing > manually to get the exact elevation from top of platform > to ballast and existing ballast grade to (new) sub-ballast > grade. Good Luck. Maybe some of the fellow > drafters/architects can offer suggestions? > > John That drawing happened to be online and readily available. I have one that shows the difference in height to be 9-10". Perhaps enough to be noticed in N scale. But since Dandy Dan Cupper knows that these tracks were lowered in modern times, I don't have to worry about it for 1954, do I? ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 16:29:04 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Horn-hook couplers (was:Problems with Walthers R50B) In a message dated 6/4/03 9:41:44 AM Central Daylight Time, asmiller@mitre.org writes: << Build an industry on your layout that recycles scrap plastic. It's output is pellets in covered hoppers and for input it takes gondola loads of the numerous horn-hook coupler we have all collected ;-) >> First, us guys with Kadees are in the minority or at least were until recently. A poll a few years ago in MR showed 60-65% of their readers used horn-hook. Only reason that might have shifted is the trend to the inclusion of wannabe Kadees in RTR cars now. I did attend one convention tour of a layout with very sophisticated operations but still using horn-hooks. They were a noticable distraction from an otherwise nice layout and operation as they did what we all know: continuously caused uncouplings and derailments. As far as use, the guys up at Plymouth, Wisconsin collected theirs in a jellybean jar for a "guess the amount" contest for door prizes for a regional NMRA meet. I keep mine and take them to the shop where I work parttime to replace those for many customers (including those who want those funny-looking wannabe Kadees replaced). Also save a few for "backdating" old cars I sell at swap meets at customer request. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PGrace" Subject: [PRR] Web page Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 22:26:56 +0100 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C32AE8.6869F6A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi,=20 I have just updated my web page with a 1914 tour brochure, the only = problem is that=20 apart from Irish data I can't fine any inflation data from 1914 to date. Patrick Grace www.prr.org.uk ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C32AE8.6869F6A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
 
I have just updated my web page with a = 1914 tour=20 brochure, the only problem is that
apart from Irish data I can't fine any = inflation=20 data from 1914 to date.
 
Patrick Grace
 
www.prr.org.uk
 
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C32AE8.6869F6A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50b's Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 17:29:26 -0400 John: I noticed the same problem. Before I complain, let me say that I think Walthers is doing a fantastic job with their passenger equipment as of late. These express reefers are absolutely beautiful. My complaint is, that with all the model rr's that use KD couplers, (I'd bet 90%), you'd think that the manufacturers would accommodate for such PITA difficulties. Although the backing off of the screw is a very minor adjustment, to say the least, the screw quickly becomes loose and can cause an accident resulting in harm to the little people that ride my trains. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Frantz" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 12:02 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50b's > This past weekend I purchased a Post-War Two Pack. I > changed the McHenry Couplers to Kadees. There is only a > slight problem. The plate holding the coupler in the box > needs to be a quarter-turn looser than absolutely tight. > This way the spring will still work. Just a little hint > for everybody. > > John > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 17:34:32 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Horn-hook couplers Of course, there was a time in distant history when there were no magnetic couplers from Kadee; Kadee made mechanically- uncoupled couplers, and so did Mantua. whose couplers looked like rectangular, horizontal loops with hooks, and both were popular; and a committee convened of the brightest minds, and out of it came the X2F or horn-hook coupler. Ferget the details, but for years it was called the "NMRA" coupler, although the NMRA never endorsed it formally. Then along came Kadee magnetics, and a patent; and then a few years ago the patent expired I think, and the rest is history. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] Horn-hook couplers (was:Problems with Walthers R50B) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 17:41:17 -0400 Bob: Boy, I find that interesting. I would never have thought that to be the case. I have NEVER visited a home layout or club that used horn hook couplers. At least in the last twenty years, anyway. I will admit to one instance. I STILL have truck mounted horn hook couplers on a set of old Model Power sharks. You can't see them, due to the close coupling, and they've been working, without incident, for years. If a visitor or one of my operators notices them, I just deny it. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Horn-hook couplers (was:Problems with Walthers R50B) > In a message dated 6/4/03 9:41:44 AM Central Daylight Time, > asmiller@mitre.org writes: > > << Build an industry on your layout that recycles scrap plastic. It's output > is > pellets in covered hoppers and for input it takes gondola loads of the > numerous > horn-hook coupler we have all collected ;-) >> > > First, us guys with Kadees are in the minority or at least were until > recently. A poll a few years ago in MR showed 60-65% of their readers used > horn-hook. Only reason that might have shifted is the trend to the inclusion of > wannabe Kadees in RTR cars now. I did attend one convention tour of a layout with > very sophisticated operations but still using horn-hooks. They were a noticable > distraction from an otherwise nice layout and operation as they did what we > all know: continuously caused uncouplings and derailments. > > As far as use, the guys up at Plymouth, Wisconsin collected theirs in a > jellybean jar for a "guess the amount" contest for door prizes for a regional NMRA > meet. I keep mine and take them to the shop where I work parttime to replace > those for many customers (including those who want those funny-looking wannabe > Kadees replaced). Also save a few for "backdating" old cars I sell at swap > meets at customer request. > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 19:44:03 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Web page --part1_11b.2384db10.2c0fde43_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/4/2003 5:37:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, pgrace@aspects.net writes: > I have just updated my web page with a 1914 tour brochure, the only problem > is that > apart from Irish data I can't fine any inflation data from 1914 to date. > Under the gold standard, the ratio of the pound sterling to the dollar was $4.80 per pound; if you can find a table of sterling inflation, you'd have a pretty good idea of the buying power of 1914 dollars. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_11b.2384db10.2c0fde43_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/4/20= 03 5:37:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, pgrace@aspects.net writes:


I have just updated my web=20= page with a 1914 tour brochure, the only problem is that=20
apart from Irish data I can't fine any inflation data from 1914 to date.


Under the gold standard, the ratio of the pound sterling to the dollar w= as
$4.80 per pound; if you can find a table of sterling inflation, you'd ha= ve
a pretty good idea of the buying power of 1914 dollars.

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_11b.2384db10.2c0fde43_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 20:20:19 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Problems with Walthers R50B --part1_31.397bf650.2c0fe6c3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I asked a Walthers rep and he told me the two-pack baggie has enough grabs for two cars but only enough horn-hook couplers for one car, and that was intentional. Chris B #1918 --part1_31.397bf650.2c0fe6c3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I asked a Walthers rep and he told me the two-pack bag= gie has enough grabs for two cars but only enough horn-hook couplers for one= car, and that was intentional.

Chris B  #1918 --part1_31.397bf650.2c0fe6c3_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Web page Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 20:29:50 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C32AD8.0CA2BC40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here's one for the US from colonization to present. http://oregonstate.edu/Dept/pol_sci/fac/sahr/sahr.htm ----- Original Message -----=20 From: PGrace=20 To: PRR Talk=20 Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 5:26 PM Subject: [PRR] Web page Hi,=20 I have just updated my web page with a 1914 tour brochure, the only = problem is that=20 apart from Irish data I can't fine any inflation data from 1914 to = date. Patrick Grace www.prr.org.uk ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C32AD8.0CA2BC40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here's one for the US from colonization = to=20 present.
 
http://ore= gonstate.edu/Dept/pol_sci/fac/sahr/sahr.htm
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 PGrace
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 = 5:26=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Web page

Hi,
 
I have just updated my web page with = a 1914 tour=20 brochure, the only problem is that
apart from Irish data I can't fine = any inflation=20 data from 1914 to date.
 
Patrick Grace
 
www.prr.org.uk
 
------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C32AD8.0CA2BC40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50b's Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 20:32:12 -0400 Re the comment made on olive paint on the underbody: I got the pre-war scheme and the location where I purchased were very puzzled by the color of the trucks. Of course, this is New Hampsha' and folks round here don't are always puzzled by the different. Tom Mahon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Reynolds" To: "John Frantz" ; Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 5:29 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50b's > John: > > I noticed the same problem. Before I complain, let me say that I think > Walthers is doing a fantastic job with their passenger equipment as of late. > These express reefers are absolutely beautiful. My complaint is, that with > all the model rr's that use KD couplers, (I'd bet 90%), you'd think that the > manufacturers would accommodate for such PITA difficulties. Although the > backing off of the screw is a very minor adjustment, to say the least, the > screw quickly becomes loose and can cause an accident resulting in harm to > the little people that ride my trains. > > Larry > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Frantz" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 12:02 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50b's > > > > This past weekend I purchased a Post-War Two Pack. I > > changed the McHenry Couplers to Kadees. There is only a > > slight problem. The plate holding the coupler in the box > > needs to be a quarter-turn looser than absolutely tight. > > This way the spring will still work. Just a little hint > > for everybody. > > > > John > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Horn Hook's Vs. Kadees (Was: Walthers R50b's) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 21:47:07 -0400 List, Larry said: >My complaint is, that with all the model rr's that use KD >couplers, (I'd bet 90%),you'd think that the >manufacturers would accommodate for such PITA >dfficulties. I can totally agree on that case, with the exception of Athearn and a few others. It's good when manufactures include some suitable facsimile of magnetic couplers. Though a problem i had recently was that they don't watch the NMRA coupler height. I had to shim coupler boxes an 1/8" up on a spectrum GP 30 and it's still low enough to come uncoupled on most grades. The path to the perfect R-T-R car continues. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Problems with Walthers R50B Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 20:52:08 -0500 Hi Bruce--You wrote: > > BTW, my "plans" for these cars include complete brake detail, modification > of the coupler pads to allow closer coupling, and perhaps replacement of > the strikers with something more functional that will also allow closer > coupling. Some olive paint on the trucks and underbody a ton of weathering > and I'll be all set! > Do you have an arrangement diagram for locating all of that brake detail? Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark Evans" Subject: X43 Pool Code - was [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 06/02/03 Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 19:28:59 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C32ACF.8C554060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My guess is the car was assigned to the Ford steering gear plant in Indianapolis, which was served by the PRR. The location of the "195" on the car side is typical Ford pool code practice. The car could have been routed [as a load] to any Ford assembly plant in the US or Canada. Were there any other Ford plants in Indy? I don't know of any... Mark T. Evans Anaheim, CA > I was just about to start assembly on the 4 PRR X43C boxcars I have in the > Shadow Keystone. I noticed all the cars had "Return to Indianapolis Indiana" > and the numbers 195 (pool assignment?) above the Pennsylvania. Before I > build them I was wondering if anyone could tell me what assigned service > these cars were used in. I would like to find out if they would make a > regular appearance on my corner of the Pennsy. > > Brian J Carlson ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C32ACF.8C554060 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My = guess is the=20 car was assigned to the Ford steering gear plant in Indianapolis, = which was=20 served by the PRR. The location of the "195" on the car side is typical = Ford=20 pool code practice. The car could have been routed [as a load] to any = Ford=20 assembly plant in the US or Canada.
 
Were there any=20 other Ford plants in Indy? I don't know of any...
 
Mark T.=20 Evans
Anaheim,=20 CA
> I=20 was just about to start assembly on the 4 PRR X43C boxcars I have in=20 the
> Shadow Keystone. I noticed all the cars had "Return to=20 Indianapolis
Indiana"
> and the numbers 195 (pool = assignment?) above=20 the Pennsylvania.  Before I
> build them I was wondering if = anyone=20 could tell me what assigned service
> these cars were used = in.  I=20 would like to find out if they would make a
> regular appearance = on my=20 corner of the Pennsy.
>
> Brian J=20 Carlson
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C32ACF.8C554060-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 23:35:13 EDT Subject: [PRR] No PRR Dayton - Cincinnati main line. Thoughts on a --part1_a.31420646.2c101471_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en In a message dated 6/4/03 6:47:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time,=20 PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > PS I am trying to work out how to put part of Columbus, Xenia,=20 > Dayton, and part of Cincinnati circa 1948-49 into 15'x19' with a=20 > partial double deck and a peninsula. I'm taking a few liberties such=20 > as what if the direct Col-Cin tracks weren't there, and/or I'm=20 > doubletracking Xenia-Dayton. Also, when did the Cin-Day main go away=20 > and become the Lytle branch? >=20 Well, there are liberties, and then there are liberties -- if I understand=20 you correctly, I'd suggest looking at this again carefully. 1. Lytle Branch - this may look on a map as if it's a main line between=20 Dayton and Cincinnati, but it is not. The Cincinnati Lebanon & Northern/Day= ton=20 Lebanon & Cincinnati/Dayton Railroad and Terminal Co (?) represent independe= nt=20 lines that were not really integrated with the rest of PRR Lines West. Thes= e=20 lines were later called the Lytle Branch and Hempstead -Clement Industrial=20 Track at the north end, and the Lebanon Branch (also known as the Court Stre= et=20 Running Track) at the Cincinnati end. They are remnants of narrow gauge Ohi= o=20 railroading that was NOT oriented toward the PRR before their standard-gaugi= ng=20 (1894) and rather late control by PRR Lines West (purchase 1896). Even aft= er=20 acquisition by the PRR, they were not really hooked up so a train could turn= =20 off a main line in Dayton or in Cincinnati and use them to travel between Da= yton=20 and Cincinnati. Why? Probably because, at its best, this over-the-hills "Highland Line" wit= h=20 its cheap construction would never be mistaken for a main line. True, it wa= s=20 once a thriving commuter line at each end. But its track was unsuitable for= =20 "mainline" freight or passenger trains, and its middle actually lay out of=20 service between Lebanon and Lytle by the 1930's, and pulled up in the 1950's= . =20 The value of these lines was in feeding suburban industrial traffic into=20 Pennsy's system. 2. West of Columbus, ignoring the Bradford/Logansport/Chicago line to the=20 northwest, the railroad is like a Y lying on its left side. The traffic com= es=20 out of Columbus via London and South Charleston, and at Xenia the line split= s. =20 The line Columbus to Xenia was mostly double track, which ended just beyond=20 Xenia on the way down to Cincinnati (there was more double track from Foster= =20 pretty much all the way to Cincinnati, in former commuter territory). The=20 majority of freight traffic (including auto parts and (1960's) auto racks) g= etting=20 as far west as Xenia was going "west" (geographically southwest) into=20 Cincinnati, joined by the Cincinnati Limiteds and maybe another pair of pass= enger=20 trains. 4. Xenia to Dayton carried mostly the passenger and mail train fleet headed= =20 via New Paris, Richmond, Indianapolis, and Terre Haute for St. Louis. There= =20 were 10 or more of these a day. Since it was not a major freight route, it= =20 was always single track, and short on passing sidings. With nasty grade=20 problems of its own, it was never really relocated much from its orginal ant= ebellum=20 engineering. 5. Incidentally, all the comments in #4 also apply to the "Dayton & Western"= =20 on the other side of Dayton -- single track to New Paris OH, it was single=20 track with a 400 foot climb in the miles west of Dayton. ****************************************************************************= ** ******** Please excuse me for sticking my oar in here, but it's home territory for me= =20 and several other modelers. If you have the choice, let yourself be led by=20 the prototype (the one that used to exist -- all of this is abandoned to bik= e=20 trails now). I considered doing Cincinnati east to Xenia or so, because for western Ohio=20 the scenic opportunities are choice. If I were drawing up a multideck track= =20 plan for that, I'd have modeled Pendleton and Undercliff at the bottom left=20= of=20 my lower level. Once the passenger line from Cincinnati Union Terminal join= s=20 up at Red Bank, the line would head to the right up a grade through Clare an= d=20 Milford to Miamiville. On this part of the run, the track would be backdrop= ped=20 by some really serious hills, rising behind the right-of-way as the line=20 works its way up the west bank of the Little Miami River. At Miamiville, th= ere's=20 a spectacular steel deck bridge, and beyond that point you'd be modeling the= =20 double track on the EAST bank of the Little Miami (your backdrop can be=20 screened by the trees that would obscure its bank, so you don't actually hav= e to=20 model the river here). Once up to Foster, you lose the double track, and will be peering over=20 foreground scenery that rises above the track line in FRONT of the line. Th= is=20 scenery continues through King's Mills and Middletown Junction, relieved by=20= the=20 flatter country at Morrow, where you meet the Zanesville branch taking off t= o the=20 east (front, a trackplanning problem). Morrow had a yard two or three track= s=20 wide. Then comes twisty track that enters the narrowest part of the Little= =20 Miami gorge to pass below Fort Ancient. This is a good place to hide the=20 entry to a helix that would lift you up to the upper level, perhaps exiting=20= the=20 helix to pass through Waynesville, Oregonia, and Spring Valley (all farming=20 communities) before entering Xenia. I modeled the line from Dayton to Xenia last layout. If I'd done a faithful= =20 prototypical job, industry should have been limited, and the passing sidings= =20 would have been short and scarce. Even though it's my home ground, for you= r=20 size layout I would keep things simple and just let this single track appear= =20 from staging. Of course, if it works out in the plan, you might have it app= ear=20 along the backdrop and converge on the line from Cincinnati at the Xenia=20 station. And don't forget the Springfield Branch, which appears from the "n= orth"=20 at the Xenia station. =20 Of course, from Xenia east is the probable focus of my projected new pike,=20 but that plan conciously sacrifices the best scenery to secure the busyness=20= of=20 the Columbus terminal area. OTOH, for a layout focused on Cincinnati, we've= =20 already got a big terminal yard at Undercliff, and a local yard at Xenia. =20 Scenery east of Xenia is relatively flat farmland, which will less interesti= ng to=20 model than the Little Miami River valley we've already trackplanned. So I'd= =20 consider letting the track disappear as soon as it gets east of Xenia - you=20 could let it exit the modeled layout in a cut at the east end of Xenia yard,= =20 hidden by trees. Or it might disappear a little farther east under one of t= he=20 quaint farm road overpasses. Handling staging at the four "ends" of this railroad is a strategic problem: 1. The staging to the east of Xenia has to be the length of big mainline=20 freights 2. Most of Dayton's trains (passenger, mail, freight local) are shorter. =20 3. Similar to Dayton, the two or three sneakoff tracks for Cincinnati Union=20 Terminal need only hold passenger trains. =20 4. Since Undercliff Yard will break down road freights into transfer cuts,=20 the Cincinnati staging tracks to its "west" will be for various locals and=20 foreign road interchange jobs (especially L&N), and can be short, but quite=20= a few=20 will be needed. =20 If you don't want to model all the passenger equipment you'd need, think=20 about whether it's better to a. manually turn the passenger/mail runs between sessions b. be able to turn these first class trains on loops at the ends for their=20 returns, or=20 c. connect east of Xenia to return from Dayton (continous running) and be=20 satisfied to see the same eastbound passenger consist run again and again (t= his=20 would bore me to tears). Similarly, traffic through Xenia was not predominately open-top. But it's=20 true that you saw L&N hopper trains (loaded with coal) coming out of Cincinn= ati=20 and headed toward Columbus. And the L&N hopper cars going back "west" (sou= th=20 to the L&N) need to be empties. So you're either going to a. need one loaded and one empty train, each to be repositioned between=20 sessions, or=20 b. place and remove a lot of coal loads between sessions, or c. just ignore the problem =20 Whether this sounds right for you or not, I hope I've raised a few issues=20 that will entertain you as you develop your track plan and layout concept= =E2=80=A6 Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West=20 --part1_a.31420646.2c101471_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en In a message dated 6/4/03 6:47:03 AM Eastern Daylight=20= Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes:


PS I am trying to work out how=20= to put part of Columbus, Xenia,
Dayton, and part of Cincinnati circa 1948-49 into 15'x19' with a
partial double deck and a peninsula. I'm taking a few liberties such
as what if the direct Col-Cin tracks weren't there, and/or I'm
doubletracking Xenia-Dayton. Also, when did the Cin-Day main go away
and become the Lytle branch?


Well, there are liberties, and then there are liberties -- if I understand y= ou correctly, I'd suggest looking at this again carefully.

1.  Lytle Branch - this may look on a map as if it's a main line betwee= n Dayton and Cincinnati, but it is not.  The Cincinnati Lebanon & N= orthern/Dayton Lebanon & Cincinnati/Dayton Railroad and Terminal Co (?)=20= represent independent lines that were not really integrated with the rest of= PRR Lines West.  These lines were later called the Lytle Branch and He= mpstead -Clement Industrial Track at the north end, and the Lebanon Branch (= also known as the Court Street Running Track) at the Cincinnati end.  T= hey are remnants of narrow gauge Ohio railroading that was NOT oriented towa= rd the PRR before their standard-gauging (1894) and rather late control by P= RR Lines West (purchase 1896).   Even after acquisition by the PRR= , they were not really hooked up so a train could turn off a main line in Da= yton or in Cincinnati and use them to travel between Dayton and Cincinnati.<= BR>
Why?  Probably because, at its best, this over-the-hills "Highland Line= " with its cheap construction would never be mistaken for a main line. = True, it was once a thriving commuter line at each end.  But its track= was unsuitable for "mainline" freight or passenger trains, and its middle a= ctually lay out of service between Lebanon and Lytle by the 1930's, and pull= ed up in the 1950's.  The value of these lines was in feeding suburban=20= industrial traffic into Pennsy's system.

2.  West of Columbus, ignoring the Bradford/Logansport/Chicago line to=20= the northwest, the railroad is like a Y lying on its left side.  The tr= affic comes out of Columbus via London and South Charleston, and at Xenia th= e line splits.  The line Columbus to Xenia was mostly double track, whi= ch ended just beyond Xenia on the way down to Cincinnati (there was more dou= ble track from Foster pretty much all the way to Cincinnati, in former commu= ter territory).  The majority of freight traffic (including auto parts=20= and (1960's) auto racks) getting as far west as Xenia was going "west" (geog= raphically southwest) into Cincinnati, joined by the Cincinnati Limiteds and= maybe another pair of passenger trains.

4.  Xenia to Dayton carried mostly the passenger and mail train fleet h= eaded via New Paris, Richmond, Indianapolis, and Terre Haute for St. Louis.&= nbsp; There were 10 or more of these a day.   Since it was not a m= ajor freight route, it was always single track, and short on passing sidings= .  With nasty grade problems of its own, it was never really relocated=20= much from its orginal antebellum engineering.

5. Incidentally, all the comments in #4 also apply to the "Dayton & West= ern" on the other side of Dayton -- single track to New Paris OH, it was sin= gle track with a 400 foot climb in the miles west of Dayton.

****************************************************************************= **********

Please excuse me for sticking my oar in here, but it's home territory for me= and several other modelers.  If you have the choice, let yourself be l= ed by the prototype (the one that used to exist -- all of this is abandoned=20= to bike trails now).

I considered doing Cincinnati east to Xenia or so, because for western Ohio=20= the scenic opportunities are choice.  If I were drawing up a multideck=20= track plan for that, I'd have modeled Pendleton and Undercliff at the bottom= left of my lower level.  Once the passenger line from Cincinnati Union= Terminal joins up at Red Bank, the line would head to the right up a grade=20= through Clare and Milford to Miamiville.  On this part of the run, the=20= track would be backdropped by some really serious hills, rising behind the r= ight-of-way as the line works its way up the west bank of the Little Miami R= iver.  At Miamiville, there's a spectacular steel deck bridge, and beyo= nd that point you'd be modeling the double track on the EAST bank of the Lit= tle Miami (your backdrop can be screened by the trees that would obscure its= bank, so you don't actually have to model the river here).

Once up to Foster, you lose the double track, and will be peering over foreg= round scenery that rises above the track line in FRONT of the li]@nbsp; Th= is scenery continues through King's Mills and Middletown Junction, relieved=20= by the flatter country at Morrow, where you meet the Zanesville branch takin= g off to the east (front, a trackplanning problem).  Morrow had a yard=20= two or three tracks wide.   Then comes twisty track that enters th= e narrowest part of the Little Miami gorge to pass below Fort Ancient. = This is a good place to hide the entry to a helix that would lift you up to= the upper level, perhaps exiting the helix to pass through Waynesville, Ore= gonia, and Spring Valley (all farming communities) before entering Xenia.
I modeled the line from Dayton to Xenia last layout.  If I'd done a fai= thful prototypical job, industry should have been limited, and the passing s= idings would have been short and scarce.   Even though it's my hom= e ground, for your size layout I would keep things simple and just let this=20= single track appear from staging.  Of course, if it works out in the pl= an, you might have it appear along the backdrop and converge on the line fro= m Cincinnati at the Xenia station.  And don't forget the Springfield Br= anch, which appears from the "north" at the Xenia station. 

Of course, from Xenia east is the probable focus of my projected new pike, b= ut that plan conciously sacrifices the best scenery to secure the busyness o= f the Columbus terminal area.  OTOH, for a layout focused on Cincinnati= , we've already got a big terminal yard at Undercliff, and a local yard at X= enia.  Scenery east of Xenia is relatively flat farmland, which will le= ss interesting to model than the Little Miami River valley we've already tra= ckplanned.  So I'd consider letting the track disappear as soon as it g= ets east of Xenia - you could let it exit the modeled layout in a cut at the= east end of Xenia yard, hidden by trees.  Or it might disappear a litt= le farther east under one of the quaint farm road overpasses.

Handling staging at the four "ends" of this railroad is a strategic problem:=
1. The staging to the east of Xenia has to be the length of big mainline fre= ights
2. Most of Dayton's trains (passenger, mail, freight local) are shorter.&nbs= p;
3. Similar to Dayton, the two or three sneakoff tracks for Cincinnati Union=20= Terminal need only hold passenger trains. 
4. Since Undercliff Yard will break down road freights into transfer cuts, t= he Cincinnati staging tracks to its "west" will be for various locals and fo= reign road interchange jobs (especially L&N), and can be short, but quit= e a few will be needed. 

If you don't want to model all the passenger equipment you'd need, think abo= ut whether it's better to
a. manually turn the passenger/mail runs between sessions
b. be able to turn these first class trains on loops at the ends for their r= eturns, or
c.  connect east of  Xenia to return from Dayton (continous runnin= g) and be satisfied to see the same eastbound passenger consist run again an= d again (this would bore me to tears).

Similarly, traffic through Xenia was not predominately open-top.  But i= t's true that you saw L&N hopper trains (loaded with coal) coming out of= Cincinnati and headed toward Columbus.   And the L&N hopper c= ars going back "west" (south to the L&N) need to be empties.  So yo= u're either going to
a. need one loaded and one empty train, each to be repositioned between sess= ions, or
b. place and remove a lot of coal loads between sessions, or
c. just ignore the problem        &n= bsp;            =             &nbs= p;     


Whether this sounds right for you or not, I hope I've raised a few issues th= at will entertain you as you develop your track plan and layout concept=E2= =80=A6


Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_a.31420646.2c101471_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 07:05:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Joseph Andrews Subject: [PRR] The Pennsy To: PRR talk members I recently picked up copies of the Jan '56 and Apr '56 "The Pennsy". Many good articles and photos in both. The Apr issue has a feature on the NF-6 livestock train. The problem is that they are so musty smelling that my wife's asthma cannot tolerate it. Taking them out of the room doesn't help, she can't stop coughing unless they're out of the house. So, instead of putting them on e-bay, I thought I'd give you guys first shot at it. The Jan issue is perfect, the Apr issue has the center few pages separated from the staples, but all pages are present and intact. If anyone is interested please contact me off list. Joe __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 10:25:37 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Bowser N Scale N5c Cabin Cars From: Jerry Britton Below are the planned (subject to change) road numbers for the N scale N5c cabin cars that Bowser soon will be shipping, along with their known 1957 assignments and existence of trainphone antenna: (Be reminded that the 1957 regions were totally different than those previous, so apparent mismatches are not necessarily incorrect.) Stock #37501 Original Lettering, Eastern Region 477964 Pittsburgh Region: ED-27-28 CONWAY MIDLAND 477968 Pittsburgh Region: ALTOONA - PITCAIRN POOL 477966 Pittsburgh Region: ALTOONA - PITCAIRN POOL Stock #37502 Original Lettering, Western Region 477967 Buckeye Region: COLUMBUS A - PITCAIRN 477969 Pittsburgh Region: GENERAL POOL - CREW #1 CM ALTOONA 477999 Northern Region: SOUTHPORT - WILLIAMSPORT - CANANDIGUA Stock #37503 Original Lettering, Central Region 477996 Northern Region: ENOLA - RENOVO *** trainphones *** 477998 Northern Region: ALTOONA - SOUTHPORT 477994 Pittsburgh Region: LEWISTOWN - MILROY CREW 243 *** trainphones *** Stock #37504 Shadow Keystone, Pittsburgh Region 477885 Pittsburgh Region: PITCAIRN - ALTOONA POOL #5 477855 Buckeye region: COLUMBUS B - LOGANSPORT 477845 Pittsburgh Region: PITCAIRN - ALTOONA POOL #17 Stock #37505 Shadow Keystone, Eastern Region 477884 Pittsburgh Region: MINGO JUNCTION - WEST POOL 477854 Northwest Region: GRAND RAPIDS 477844 Pittsburgh region: W. BROWNSVILLE JCT.- ALTOONA POOL #4 Stock #37506 Shadow Keystone, Philadelphia Region 477984 Pittsburgh Region: CONWAY - ALTOONA POOL 477954 Pittsburgh Regioon: ALTOONA - WILKESBARRE CREW 662 *** trainphones *** 477944 Pittsburgh Region: PITCAIRN - MINGO POOL CREW #1 Stock #37507 Shadow Keystone, Buckeye Region 477843 Northern Region: ERIE - BUFFALO - BEC - 1 477853 Northwest Region: GRAND RAPIDS 477883 Lake Region: CANTON WEST POOL Stock #37512 Original Lettering, "Buy War Bonds" 477974 Northern Region: SOUTHPORT - WILLIAMSPORT - CANANDIGUA 477977 Northern Region: ERIE - BUFFALO BEC-2 477979 Northern Region: WILLIAMSPORT - ENOLA - EC-2 *** trainphones *** I was not provided with road numbers for #37508 (Focal Orange Body) or #37509 (Red Body). I have to note that I am somewhat dismayed at many of the road number choices, given that I provided Bowser with the complete 1957 assignments database many months ago. Please note that dealers/Bowser will NOT accept orders for specific road numbers. When dealers order 3 units of a stock number at a time, Bowser supplies them in a sealed 3-pack bag of all three road numbers. Your dealer may or may not allow choice of road numbers, but they CANNOT special order a specific road number from Bowser. If you want a specific number, the best course of action is to order a 3-pack of the desired stock number. SRP on these cars is $24.95. Dealers will likely discount. (Merchandise Service is 30% off for pre-orders.) Bowser reports final touches being done now and then all other production stops to allow the full run of N5c's to be expedited. ETA is late June. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 11:48:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser N Scale N5c Cabin Cars Jerry, It is interesting to see Bowser doing the N5c 477974. This is the Cabin our local historical Society is restoring. I note that this Bowser version will have " Buy War Bonds" Is this known for fact that this lettering appeared on this particular car or just happened that way that Bowser picked this model N5c to apply it on. Interesting....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 15:41:38 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: Bowser N Scale N5c Cabin Cars From: Jerry Britton This morning I posted Bowser's planned numbers for the forthcoming N5c's. Many of the numbers were assigned to different regions for the schemes in question. Remember, the pre-1956 regions have different names than the as of 1956 regions. Here are his original plans for the Eastern Region as of pre-1956. They were in error. On 6/5/03 10:25 AM, Jerry Britton (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > Stock #37501 Original Lettering, Eastern Region > 477964 Pittsburgh Region: ED-27-28 CONWAY MIDLAND > 477968 Pittsburgh Region: ALTOONA - PITCAIRN POOL > 477966 Pittsburgh Region: ALTOONA - PITCAIRN POOL > Per my recommendation, they are being changed to On 6/5/03 11:28 AM, Jerry Britton (jbritton@dsop.com) wrote: > The following cars would be CORRECT labeled for Eastern Region in the original > lettering scheme... > > 477900 1957: Philadelphia Region: ENOLA CREW ***trainphone*** > 477887 1957: Chesapeake Region: ENOLA-POT YARD > 477839 1957: New York Region: ENOLA-JERSEY CITY Note that the new regional names came out of the pre-1956 Eastern Region. Now they are all correct. Plus we pick up a unit that had trainphones. Lee English and I are working on correcting some of the other road numbers. Stay tuned! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 15:56:54 -0400 Subject: [PRR] N5c and BUY WAR BONDS From: Jerry Britton Anyone have a source for which N5c cabins received the slogan BUY WAR BONDS? Working with Bowser to get correct road numbers on new run of cabins. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 14:15:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Vondruska Subject: Re: [PRR] No PRR Dayton - Cincinnati main line. Thoughts on a --0-279791183-1054847745=:17427 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Interesting, Rick. One way to solve the track problems, such as having the Zanesville branch entering from the east is to construct the layout so you are looking east, not west. This would allow the constuction of the hills behind the track and the modeling of a riverbank, not a whole river in the foreground. I was wondering why you omitted Middletown junction and its traffic serving the ARMCO steel works in Middletown. Its entry from the west, foreground in this alignment, presents a challenge. I like hiding a helix entrance in the narrows by Fort Ancient. In either version you won't be modeling much of Waynjesville as it was on the hill overlooking the station at Corwin across the water on the east bank of Little Miami River. After this the river ceases to be a problem as at Spring Valley it climbs out of the valley toward Xenia. If you nodel the Springfield branch, between Xenia and Yellow Springs you'll need to bridge several tributaries. Plate girder bridges carried the branch ac Steel bowstring through truss bridges carried U.S. 68 across Massie's Creek and the LIttle Miami just north of Oldtown while a steel Warren through truss bridge with an open grating deck carried the pre-1950 alignment of U.S. 68/Springfield Pike across Jacoby Run mere feet w----of the railroad. The white clapboard Unitarian church on the westsid side of the road at the south end of the bridge makes this a pretty scenic spot. There's also an industry, a Kings Powder Co. powder mill just noth of the Little Miami beteen the throguh girder bridge and Goes Station as well as a one-room school house and a concrete block restaurant with owner's apartment on the seocnd floor (that apartment was my first residence when I moved to Greene County in February 1982) and one small cross street. For even more operating interest, my planned layout includes a still active Springfield-Xenia Electric Railway Co., an interurban (that in my world did not switch to buses and pulled its tracks in 1934) with its tracks on the east side of U.S. 68. This requires three additional plate girder bridges crossing Massie's Creek, the Little Miami and Jacoby Run (In case you're wondering why U.S. 68 doesn't cross Stoner's Run, the creek makes a sharp turn to the north between the Railroad Bridge and the highway and Flows north into Massies Creek flowing between the highway and the railroad.) Tom V. RickTipton@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 6/4/03 6:47:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: PS I am trying to work out how to put part of Columbus, Xenia, Dayton, and part of Cincinnati circa 1948-49 into 15'x19' with a partial double deck and a peninsula. I'm taking a few liberties such as what if the direct Col-Cin tracks weren't there, and/or I'm doubletracking Xenia-Dayton. Also, when did the Cin-Day main go away and become the Lytle branch? Well, there are liberties, and then there are liberties -- if I understand you correctly, I'd suggest looking at this again carefully. 1. Lytle Branch - this may look on a map as if it's a main line between Dayton and Cincinnati, but it is not. The Cincinnati Lebanon & Northern/Dayton Lebanon & Cincinnati/Dayton Railroad and Terminal Co (?) represent independent lines that were not really integrated with the rest of PRR Lines West. These lines were later called the Lytle Branch and Hempstead -Clement Industrial Track at the north end, and the Lebanon Branch (also known as the Court Street Running Track) at the Cincinnati end. They are remnants of narrow gauge Ohio railroading that was NOT oriented toward the PRR before their standard-gauging (1894) and rather late control by PRR Lines West (purchase 1896). Even after acquisition by the PRR, they were not really hooked up so a train could turn off a main line in Dayton or in Cincinnati and use them to travel between Dayton and Cincinnati. Why? Probably because, at its best, this over-the-hills "Highland Line" with its cheap construction would never be mistaken for a main line. True, it was once a thriving commuter line at each end. But its track was unsuitable for "mainline" freight or passenger trains, and its middle actually lay out of service between Lebanon and Lytle by the 1930's, and pulled up in the 1950's. The value of these lines was in feeding suburban industrial traffic into Pennsy's system. 2. West of Columbus, ignoring the Bradford/Logansport/Chicago line to the northwest, the railroad is like a Y lying on its left side. The traffic comes out of Columbus via London and South Charleston, and at Xenia the line splits. The line Columbus to Xenia was mostly double track, which ended just beyond Xenia on the way down to Cincinnati (there was more double track from Foster pretty much all the way to Cincinnati, in former commuter territory). The majority of freight traffic (including auto parts and (1960's) auto racks) getting as far west as Xenia was going "west" (geographically southwest) into Cincinnati, joined by the Cincinnati Limiteds and maybe another pair of passenger trains. 4. Xenia to Dayton carried mostly the passenger and mail train fleet headed via New Paris, Richmond, Indianapolis, and Terre Haute for St. Louis. There were 10 or more of these a day. Since it was not a major freight route, it was always single track, and short on passing sidings. With nasty grade problems of its own, it was never really relocated much from its orginal antebellum engineering. 5. Incidentally, all the comments in #4 also apply to the "Dayton & Western" on the other side of Dayton -- single track to New Paris OH, it was single track with a 400 foot climb in the miles west of Dayton. ************************************************************************************** Please excuse me for sticking my oar in here, but it's home territory for me and several other modelers. If you have the choice, let yourself be led by the prototype (the one that used to exist -- all of this is abandoned to bike trails now). I considered doing Cincinnati east to Xenia or so, because for western Ohio the scenic opportunities are choice. If I were drawing up a multideck track plan for that, I'd have modeled Pendleton and Undercliff at the bottom left of my lower level. Once the passenger line from Cincinnati Union Terminal joins up at Red Bank, the line would head to the right up a grade through Clare and Milford to Miamiville. On this part of the run, the track would be backdropped by some really serious hills, rising behind the right-of-way as the line works its way up the west bank of the Little Miami River. At Miamiville, there's a spectacular steel deck bridge, and beyond that point you'd be modeling the double track on the EAST bank of the Little Miami (your backdrop can be screened by the trees that would obscure its bank, so you don't actually have to model the river here). Once up to Foster, you lose the double track, and will be peering over foreground scenery that rises above the track line in FRONT of the line. This scenery continues through King's Mills and Middletown Junction, relieved by the flatter country at Morrow, where you meet the Zanesville branch taking off to the east (front, a trackplanning problem). Morrow had a yard two or three tracks wide. Then comes twisty track that enters the narrowest part of the Little Miami gorge to pass below Fort Ancient. This is a good place to hide the entry to a helix that would lift you up to the upper level, perhaps exiting the helix to pass through Waynesville, Oregonia, and Spring Valley (all farming communities) before entering Xenia. I modeled the line from Dayton to Xenia last layout. If I'd done a faithful prototypical job, industry should have been limited, and the passing sidings would have been short and scarce. Even though it's my home ground, for your size layout I would kd withings simple and just let this single track appear from staging. Of course, if it works out in the plan, you might have it appear along the backdrop and converge on the line from Cincinnati at the Xenia station. And don't forget the Springfield Branch, which appears from the "north" at the Xenia station. Of course, from Xenia east is the probable focus of my projected new pike, but that plan conciously sacrifices the best scenery to secure the busyness of the Columbus terminal area. OTOH, for a layout focused on Cincinnati, we've already got a big terminal yard at Undercliff, and a local yard at Xenia. Scenery east of Xenia is relatively flat farmland, which will less interesting to model than the Little Miami River valley we've already trackplanned. So I'd consider letting the track disappear as soon as it gets east of Xenia - you could let it exit the modeled layout in a cut at the east end of Xenia yard, hidden by trees. Or it might disappear a little farther east under one of the quaint farm road overpasses. Handling staging at the four "ends" of this railroad is a strategic problem: 1. The staging to the east of Xenia has to be the length of big mainline freights 2. Most of Dayton's trains (passenger, mail, freight local) are shorter. 3. Similar to Dayton, the two or three sneakoff tracks for Cincinnati Union Terminal need only hold passenger trains. 4. Since Undercliff Yard will break down road freights into transfer cuts, the Cincinnati staging tracks to its "west" will be for various locals and foreign road interchange jobs (especially L&N), and can be short, but quite a few will be needed. If you don't want to model all the passenger equipment you'd need, think about whether it's better to a. manually turn the passenger/mail runs between sessions b. be able to turn these first class trains on loops at the ends for their returns, or c. connect east of Xenia to return from Dayton (continous running) and be satisfied to see the same eastbound passenger consist run again and again (this would bore me to tears). Similarly, traffic through Xenia was not predominately open-top. But it's true that you saw L&N hopper trains (loaded with coal) coming out of Cincinnati and headed toward Columbus. And the L&N hopper cars going back "west" (south to the L&N) need to be empties. So you're either going to a. need one loaded and one empty train, each to be repositioned between sessions, or b. place and remove a lot of coal loads between sessions, or c. just ignore the problem Whether this sounds right for you or not, I hope I've raised a few issues that will entertain you as you develop your track plan and layout concept… Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-279791183-1054847745=:17427 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Interesting, Rick. One way to solve the track problems, such as having the Zanesville branch entering from the east is to construct the layout so you are looking east, not west. This would allow the constuction of the hills behind the track and the modeling of a riverbank, not a whole river in the foreground. I was wondering why you omitted Middletown junction and its traffic serving the ARMCO steel works in Middletown. Its entry from the west,  foreground in this alignment, presents a challenge. I like hiding a helix entrance in the narrows by Fort Ancient. In either version you won't be modeling much of Waynjesville as it was on the hill overlooking the station at Corwin across the water on the east bank of Little Miami River. After this the river ceases to be a problem as at Spring Valley it climbs out of the valley toward Xenia. If you nodel the Springfield branch, between Xenia and Yellow Springs you'll need to bridge sev
  Steel bowstring through truss bridges carried U.S. 68 across Massie's Creek and the LIttle Miami just north of Oldtown while a steel Warren through truss bridge with an open grating deck carried the  pre-1950 alignment of U.S. 68/Springfield Pike across Jacoby Run mere feet west of the railroad. The white clapboard Unitarian church on the westsid side of the road at the south end of the bridge  makes this a pretty scenic spot. There's also an industry, a Kings Powder Co. powder mill just noth of the Little Miami beteen the throguh girder bridge and Goes Station as well as a one-room school house and a concrete block restaurant with owner's apartment on the seocnd floor (that apartment was my first residence when I moved to Greene County in February 1982) and one small cross street.
   For even more operating interest, my planned layout includes a still active Springfield-Xenia Electric Railway Co., an interurban (that in my world did not switch to buses and pulled its tracks in 1934) with its tracks on the east side of U.S. 68. This requires three additional plate girder bridges crossing Massie's Creek, the Little Miami and Jacoby Run  
  (In case you're wondering why U.S. 68 doesn't cross Stoner's Run, the creek makes a sharp turn to the north between the Railroad Bridge and the highway and Flows north into Massies Creek flowing between the highway and the railroad.)
 
Tom V.

RickTipton@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 6/4/03 6:47:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes:


PS I am trying to work out how to put part of Columbus, Xenia,
Dayton, and part of Cincinnati circa 1948-49 into 15'x19' with a
partial double deck and a peninsula. I'm taking a few liberties such
as what if the direct Col-Cin tracks weren't there, and/or I'm
doubletracking Xenia-Dayton. Also, when did the Cin-Day main go away
and become the Lytle branch?


Well, there are liberties, and then there are liberties -- if I understand you correctly, I'd suggest looking at this again carefully.

1.  Lytle Branch - this may look on a map as if it's a main line between Dayton and Cincinnati, but it is not.  The Cincinnati Lebanon & Northern/Dayton Lebanon & Cincinnati/Dayton Railroad and Terminal Co (?) represent independent lines that were not really integrated with the rest of PRR Lines West.  These line Do you Yahoo!?
Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-279791183-1054847745=:17427-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Model Railroader "most wanted Locomotives" Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 08:37:33 -0400 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32C28.6719C744 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Listers, Terry Thompson MR editor writes on the MR website: Many of you may have read the list of my "top 10" hoped-for locomotives that appeared in the June issue. Here's my second 10: an SP early Cab-Forward, an Erie or Virginian Triplex, a C&O/PRR 2-10-4, a new Train Master in HO, an early Challenger, a Baldwin Centipede, a Pennsy I1 Decapod, an EMC SC/SW, and a few GE U-boats, including an HO U30C and a U28CG. If you haven't cast your "most wanted locomotive" ballot yet(the ballot is in your June issue), make sure to do so. Time's running out! - Terry At least 4 out of 10 are Pennsy locos!!! (not sure about the U-boats) However those of us who have ballots should send them in since the winners usually get produced. He also wrote: We continue to hear very well-sourced rumors that some new, high-quality models of some very big and very famous locomotives will be announced soon. This could be an interesting summer... - Terry Maybe some PRR stuff? Chris Chany ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32C28.6719C744 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Listers,
 
 
Terry Thompson MR editor writes on the = MR=20 website:
 
Many of you may have = read the=20 list of my "top 10" hoped-for locomotives that appeared in the = June issue.=20 Here's my second 10: an SP early Cab-Forward, an Erie or = Virginian=20 Triplex, a C&O/PRR 2-10-4, a new Train Master in HO, an early = Challenger, a Baldwin Centipede, a Pennsy I1 Decapod, an EMC = SC/SW, and a=20 few GE U-boats, including an HO U30C and a U28CG. If you haven't = cast your=20 "most wanted locomotive" ballot yet(the ballot is in your June = issue),=20 make sure to do so. Time's running out! - Terry

3D""=20
3D""=20

3D""=20
At least 4 out=20 of 10 are Pennsy locos!!! (not sure about the U-boats)  However = those of=20 us who have ballots should send them in since the = winners usually=20 get produced.
 
 
He also=20 wrote:
 
We continue to hear very well-sourced = rumors that=20 some new, high-quality models of some very big and very famous = locomotives=20 will be announced soon. This could be an interesting summer... -=20 Terry
 
Maybe some PRR=20 stuff?
 
Chris=20 Chany
------_=_NextPart_001_01C32C28.6719C744-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Model Railroader "most wanted Locomotives" Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 14:16:12 +0000 Chris and the list: It will be an interesting summer. It seems that a few of the engines that Terry listed have arleady been "claimed" by manufacturers such as the J-1 and Cab Forward. Many of the PRR engines have been earmarked my BLI but a few engines like the I-1, L-1 and H-class engines are still available. We will see what happens this summer. Til then, I gotta finish my mainline to make room for these new engines. I also see allot of announcements in passenger cars in the next year or so. Maybe even a Broadway Limited passenger car "set" that would consist of 12-15 cars to match a certain period such as 1938 (FOM), 1948-9, etc. These cars would e the same quality of Walthers. Imagine picking up a set like this for about $400. I'm game!!!! I envision the next frontier may involve scale signals, signal bridges, and signal operating systems. There is a big VOID right now despite the presence of some good signal suppliers. My 2 cents worth..... Ted Andrews (putting rail down at the passing sidings in West Plymouth interlocking (Ft. Wayne Line) >Terry Thompson MR editor writes on the MR website: > >Many of you may have read the list of my "top 10" hoped-for locomotives >that >appeared in the June issue. Here's my second 10: an SP early Cab-Forward, >an >Erie or Virginian Triplex, a C&O/PRR 2-10-4, a new Train Master in HO, an >early Challenger, a Baldwin Centipede, a Pennsy I1 Decapod, an EMC SC/SW, >and a few GE U-boats, including an HO U30C and a U28CG. If you haven't cast >your "most wanted locomotive" ballot yet(the ballot is in your June issue), >make sure to do so. Time's running out! -M Eary >We continue to hear very well-sourced rumors that some new, high-quality >models of some very big and very famous locomotives will be announced soon. >This could be an interesting summer... - Terry > > >Maybe some PRR stuff? > _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Miracle Castings Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 16:48:34 +0000 Is Miracle Castings still in business? If not who has the BP20 molds at this point? Is it possible to find any BP20 castings? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Miracle Castings Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 11:55:37 -0500 We have been told that the BP20 resin shells may be surfacing again. It is currently in the planning stages with no production scheduled as of now. Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com featuring almost 10,000 in stock items 90A Jersey Avenue New Brunswick, NJ 08901 732-565-1555 Voice 732-565-1005 FAX ---------- Original Message ----------- From: ndbprr@att.net To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com (PRR-Talk) Sent: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 16:48:34 +0000 Subject: [PRR] Miracle Castings > Is Miracle Castings still in business? If not who has the BP20 > molds at this point? Is it possible to find any BP20 castings? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------- End of Original Message ------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: Re: [PRR] Model Railroader "most wanted Locomotives Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:52:01 -0400 I would put the I and the L1 on my list, but the H is another issue because brass ones can still be found relatively cheaply. It looks like we will be seeing a lot of Pennsy stuff in plastic, my hope is that we see a P5a and a B1 in the mix too. If I were to do a list it would be as follows: 1. Pennsy I1sa 2. ATSF 2-10-4 (remember, Pennsy leased a few of these) 3. Pennsy P5a unmod and modified 4. Milwaukee Road Bi-Polar 5. CB&Q Zephyr 6. Pennsy S1 7. Pennsy L1 Eric --- Eric Lauterbach --- ealauterbach@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: [PRR] Pictures of the BLI M1a Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:57:14 -0400

Broadway Limited Imports now has pre-production pictures of the M1a up on their website. From the changes they made on the N&W Class A, they are concerned about getting the engine right. The M1a looks really good, it even looks like they got the paint right. I know I will be changing my order from 1 M1b to 2 M1b's. Also, they have an updated shipping schedule. The Class A ships this month, the GG1 in August, E7 in September, M1a/b November, T1 in December, and the J1 is slated for "early 2004."
Eric
 
--- Eric Lauterbach
--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
 

----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 15:01:27 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Model Railroader "most wanted Locomotives I can just picture a Bachmann or Rivarossi S1 on an 18" radius turn. Ooops - here come my lunch again ;-) I know its not an Loco, but they are powered; how about plastic, MP54s with underfloor power trucks and full interiors :-)))) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Eric Lauterbach wrote: > I would put the I and the L1 on my list, but the H is another issue because > brass ones can still be found relatively cheaply. It looks like we will be > seeing a lot of Pennsy stuff in plastic, my hope is that we see a P5a and a > B1 in the mix too. If I were to do a list it would be as follows: > 1. Pennsy I1sa > 2. ATSF 2-10-4 (remember, Pennsy leased a few of these) > 3. Pennsy P5a unmod and modified > 4. Milwaukee Road Bi-Polar > 5. CB&Q Zephyr > 6. Pennsy S1 > 7. Pennsy L1 > > Eric > > --- Eric Lauterbach > --- ealauterbach@earthlink.net > --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] BLI M1 Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 19:23:00 +0000 I have to admit after being skeptical that it would ever be built that it looks pretty realistic. Shouldn't the smokebox be graphited and the roof of the cab and the tender deck the same color? None of the pictures looks to be the correct color red but it could just be the lighting. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 15:45:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI M1 Norm, As the site states, don't use these pre-producion samples as discussion. But, to answer your email on the roof color and deck color, it depends. If I recall correctly. a new loco had the same colors. If repainted, the cab recieved a bit more black mixed in. So, the BLI could be representing a reshopped loco. Couldn't tell about the Graphite. It could be there, hard to tell. Locos varried anyway. To me the Tender really looks good. I wouldn't do a thing with it, except for the need of wearing sunglasses to view the deck. I would definetly weather to tone it down. The Loco, If BLI dosn't change anything prior to release, the Bell has to go when it gets into my hands! Precision Scale makes the perfect replacment. Overall, for the first complete mock up, ithe M1a looks OK....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Model Railroader "most wanted Locomotives Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 20:11:21 +0000 Eric and the list: I should have clarified my post better. I agree that there are allot of H-8,9 and 10 brass units out there. My preference is in the H-6 however. These were common on Pennsy but IMHO, are the most underproduced model in brass. I think that there was only 3 imports of this engine. The first one by Lambert in the early 1970's, the second by Sunset in the early 1990's, and Key Imports also in the 1990's. There could be other runs out there but those mentioned above are the most prominent. All of them are fetching premium prices; the Sunsets are in the $300's, Lamberts are typically in the $400's and Keys are in the $500's. Even so, they are rare when you find them for sale. It would be great to see one of these in plastic. Right now, I'm looking for one Sunset and one Lambert. Ted >From: "Eric Lauterbach" >Reply-To: ealauterbach@earthlink.net >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com, "Ted Andrews" >Subject: Re: [PRR] Model Railroader "most wanted Locomotives >Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:52:01 -0400 > >I would put the I and the L1 on my list, but the H is another issue because >brass ones can still be found relatively cheaply. It looks like we will be >seeing a lot of Pennsy stuff in plastic, my hope is that we see a P5a and a >B1 in the mix too. If I were to do a list it would be as follows: >1. Pennsy I1sa >2. ATSF 2-10-4 (remember, Pennsy leased a few of these) >3. Pennsy P5a unmod and modified >4. Milwaukee Road Bi-Polar >5. CB&Q Zephyr >6. Pennsy S1 >7. Pennsy L1 > >Eric > > >--- Eric Lauterbach >--- ealauterbach@earthlink.net >--- EarthLink: It's your Internet. > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alex Charyna" Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54s was "most wanted Locomotives" Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 12:33:34 -0800 > I know its not an Loco, but they are powered; how about plastic, MP54s with > underfloor power trucks and full interiors :-)))) YES YES YES YES YES YES!!!! I'd buy at least a dozen. I'd take them with "abovefloor" power. this guy's out of kits.. http://www.gwchase.freehosting.net/index.html Alco made a set in brass... Can't these be bashed from a coach? Weren't they in real life? Young Pennsy fan, -alex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew S. Miller" To: Cc: ; "Ted Andrews" Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 11:01 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Model Railroader "most wanted Locomotives > I can just picture a Bachmann or Rivarossi S1 on an 18" radius turn. Ooops - > here come my lunch again ;-) > > I know its not an Loco, but they are powered; how about plastic, MP54s with > underfloor power trucks and full interiors :-)))) > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > Eric Lauterbach wrote: > > > I would put the I and the L1 on my list, but the H is another issue because > > brass ones can still be found relatively cheaply. It looks like we will be > > seeing a lot of Pennsy stuff in plastic, my hope is that we see a P5a and a > > B1 in the mix too. If I were to do a list it would be as follows: > > 1. Pennsy I1sa > > 2. ATSF 2-10-4 (remember, Pennsy leased a few of these) > > 3. Pennsy P5a unmod and modified > > 4. Milwaukee Road Bi-Polar > > 5. CB&Q Zephyr > > 6. Pennsy S1 > > 7. Pennsy L1 > > > > Eric > > > > --- Eric Lauterbach > > --- havuterbach@earthlink.net > > --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 17:04:41 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54s was "most wanted Locomotives" Several importers have made them in Brass over the years. Most now sell for over $300 per car. I don't know of any good way to kitbash them from any coaches on the market. The prototype was rebuilt for cars originally built to electrified. So the car bodies remained substantially unchanged. I have scratch built two myself and otherwise run a mixed bag of ALCO brass and Walthers cars, but would love to have plastic cars to increase my fleet. The unpowered versions without pans or headlights could be sold as P54s and look great for the Pittsburgh suburban modelers, LIRR and B&M. They also would represent a prototype shorty for all those people stuck with small layouts. Lastly, the manufacture can letter them for PRR, PC, ConRail, NJT, SEPTA, and several liveries of LIRR. The unpowered cars are correct for PRR, LIRR, and B&M! Is anyone listening?? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org PS I had the great good fortune several years ago when on a business trip to Albuquerque NM to wander into a hobby shop that had just bought a brass collection from an estate. Needless to say in Albuquerque all the ATSF steam went ASAP at top dollar, but the funny short passenger cars with "stuff" on the roof languished on the shelf collecting New Mexico dust. Thus did I pick up a 3 car Alco MP54 set for $125 !! ================================================== Alex Charyna wrote: > > I know its not an Loco, but they are powered; how about plastic, MP54s > with > > underfloor power trucks and full interiors :-)))) > > YES YES YES YES YES YES!!!! > I'd buy at least a dozen. > > I'd take them with "abovefloor" power. > > this guy's out of kits.. > http://www.gwchase.freehosting.net/index.html > > Alco made a set in brass... > > Can't these be bashed from a coach? > Weren't they in real life? > > Young Pennsy fan, > -alex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andrew S. Miller" > To: > Cc: ; "Ted Andrews" > Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 11:01 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Model Railroader "most wanted Locomotives > > > I can just picture a Bachmann or Rivarossi S1 on an 18" radius turn. > Ooops - > > here come my lunch again ;-) > > > > I know its not an Loco, but they are powered; how about plastic, MP54s > with > > underfloor power trucks and full interiors :-)))) > > > > Regards, > > > > Andy Miller > > asmiller@mitre.org > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54s was "most wanted Locomotives" Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 21:18:50 +0000 I would love to see them also but electrics apparently are too risky and too small an audience. It would have to be done by someone with deep enough pockets and love of the PRR to chance making them. Even if they were done they would probably be around $100.00 powered as a guess plus the power truck design would be unique unless they made the baggage combination and stuck the motor in the baggage section. Then there are the West Jersey cars also that might be possible. The only problem is making them have a realistic growl when starting. Maybe Alco Models could make the mechanisms to insure the proper sound. > Several importers have made them in Brass over the years. Most now sell for > over $300 per car. I don't know of any good way to kitbash them from any > coaches on the market. The prototype was rebuilt for cars originally built to > electrified. So the car bodies remained substantially unchanged. I have > scratch built two myself and otherwise run a mixed bag of ALCO brass and > Walthers cars, but would love to have plastic cars to increase my fleet. The > unpowered versions without pans or headlights could be sold as P54s and look > great for the Pittsburgh suburban modelers, LIRR and B&M. They also would > represent a prototype shorty for all those people stuck with small layouts. > > Lastly, the manufacture can letter them for PRR, PC, ConRail, NJT, SEPTA, and > several liveries of LIRR. The unpowered cars are correct for PRR, LIRR, and > B&M! > > Is anyone listening?? > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > PS I had the great good fortune several years ago when on a business trip to > Albuquerque NM to wander into a hobby shop that had just bought a brass > collection from an estate. Needless to say in Albuquerque all the ATSF steam > went ASAP at top dollar, but the funny short passenger cars with "stuff" on the > roof languished on the shelf collecting New Mexico dust. Thus did I pick up a > 3 car Alco MP54 set for $125 !! > ================================================== > Alex Charyna wrote: > > > > I know its not an Loco, but they are powered; how about plastic, MP54s > > with > > > underfloor power trucks and full interiors :-)))) > > > > YES YES YES YES YES YES!!!! > > I'd buy at least a dozen. > > > > I'd take them with "abovefloor" power. > > > > this guy's out of kits.. > > http://www.gwchase.freehosting.net/index.html > > > > Alco made a set in brass... > > > > Can't these be bashed from a coach? > > Weren't they in real life? > > > > Young Pennsy fan, > > -alex > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Andrew S. Miller" > > To: > > Cc: ; "Ted Andrews" > > Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 11:01 AM > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Model Railroader "most wanted Locomotives > > > > > I can just picture a Bachmann or Rivarossi S1 on an 18" radius turn. > > Ooops - > > > here come my lunch again ;-) > > > > > > I know its not an Loco, but they are powered; how about plastic, MP54s > > with > > > underfloor power trucks and full interiors :-)))) > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Andy Miller > > > asmiller@mitre.org > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] L1 vs. L2 Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 21:22:04 +0000 How do the wheel diameters compare on the L1 and the L2? Could an Athearn USRA mike drive be put under a Bachman K4 shell to make an L1? This could possibly be a fairly easy conversion. The tender guts from the mike would have to be moved into a Bachman or Bowser tender however. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI M1 Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 21:58:41 +0000 Overall, it looks pretty good. If it is weighted well and can pull about 30 cars, I can see myself getting at least 3...probably more. One bad thing that stood out to me was the semi-circular railing on the upper half of the smokebox cover appears to be molded on....YIKES!! P2K, please make the railing a separate detail piece; it will make a noticeable diifference. Overall, I will give in 4 out of 5 Keystones. :P Ted Andrews (Modelling the Ft. Wayne line in Indiana where there was never too many M-1's!!) _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pennsy Nut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Model Railroader "most wanted Locomotives Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 17:05:00 -0500 Hi Y'all The statements about the H6 are what I've been saying for years. "THE most underproduced model". How many thousands did the Pennsy have? Lot's and Lot's. And I can't remember the last time I've seen a brass one at a swap. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 & Proud SPF ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Andrews" To: ; Sent: Friday, 06 June, 2003 3:11 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Model Railroader "most wanted Locomotives > Eric and the list: > > I should have clarified my post better. I agree that there are allot of > H-8,9 and 10 brass units out there. My preference is in the H-6 however. > These were common on Pennsy but IMHO, are the most underproduced model in > brass. I think that there was only 3 imports of this engine. The first one > by Lambert in the early 1970's, the second by Sunset in the early 1990's, > and Key Imports also in the 1990's. There could be other runs out there but > those mentioned above are the most prominent. All of them are fetching > premium prices; the Sunsets are in the $300's, Lamberts are typically in the > $400's and Keys are in the $500's. Even so, they are rare when you find them > for sale. > > It would be great to see one of these in plastic. Right now, I'm looking for > one Sunset and one Lambert. > > Ted ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54s was "most wanted Locomotives" Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 18:45:13 -0400 Andy: "I don't know of any good way to kitbash them from any coaches on the market" You can make a credible MP54 from the Life Like passenger car which is probably a former a Penn L:ine die. I made about a dozen cars years ago from the Penn Line, and from 3 feet away they looked pretty good. My cars were unpowered until the SPUD units came out in the 80's. Lew How long a minute is depends on what side of the bathroom door you're on. Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Waste Management and Energy Systems. Advocating water for life through sustainable agriculture, sustainable toilets, sustainable gray water systems and sustainable green construction. Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O., B.O.C.A.I. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew S. Miller" To: "Alex Charyna" Cc: "PRR-Talk Posting" Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 5:04 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54s was "most wanted Locomotives" > Several importers have made them in Brass over the years. Most now sell for > over $300 per car. I don't know of any good way to kitbash them from any > coaches on the market. The prototype was rebuilt for cars originally built to > electrified. So the car bodies remained substantially unchanged. I have > scratch built two myself and otherwise run a mixed bag of ALCO brass and > Walthers cars, but would love to have plastic cars to increase my fleet. The > unpowered versions without pans or headlights could be sold as P54s and look > great for the Pittsburgh suburban modelers, LIRR and B&M. They also would > represent a prototype shorty for all those people stuck with small layouts. > > Lastly, the manufacture can letter them for PRR, PC, ConRail, NJT, SEPTA, and > several liveries of LIRR. The unpowered cars are correct for PRR, LIRR, and > B&M! > > Is anyone listening?? > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > PS I had the great good fortune several years ago when on a business trip to > Albuquerque NM to wander into a hobby shop that had just bought a brass > collection from an estate. Needless to say in Albuquerque all the ATSF steam > went ASAP at top dollar, but the funny short passenger cars with "stuff" on the > roof languished on the shelf collecting New Mexico dust. Thus did I pick up a > 3 car Alco MP54 set for $125 !! > ================================================== > Alex Charyna wrote: > > > > I know its not an Loco, but they are powered; how about plastic, MP54s > > with > > > underfloor power trucks and full interiors :-)))) > > > > YES YES YES YES YES YES!!!! > > I'd buy at least a dozen. > > > > I'd take them with "abovefloor" power. > > > > this guy's out of kits.. > > http://www.gwchase.freehosting.net/index.html > > > > Alco made a set in brass... > > > > Can't these be bashed from a coach? > > Weren't they in real life? > > > > Young Pennsy fan, > > -alex > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Andrew S. Miller" > > To: > > Cc: ; "Ted Andrews" > > Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 11:01 AM > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Model Railroader "most wanted Locomotives > > > > > I can just picture a Bachmann or Rivarossi S1 on an 18" radius turn. > > Ooops - > > > here come my lunch again ;-) > > > > > > I know its not an Loco, but they are powered; how about plastic, MP54s > > with > > > underfloor power trucks and full interiors :-)))) > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Andy , exer > > > asmiller@mitre.org > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Cooper" Subject: [PRR] Ballpark at Zoo? Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 15:51:47 -0700 I was looking at satellite imagery off Zoo today. There is an unmistakable ballfield in the middle of Zoo on the NY-Pitt side of the wye with the outfield fence up against the NY-Pitt subway. Anyone know what's up with that? Is railfanning Zoo a tad bit easier now? John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 19:05:18 -0400 Subject: [PRR] PRR Men in WWII From: "Stephen H. Prosser" Dear Listers, I hope this is allowed on the list, but I just wanted to remember all the PRR men who landed on D-Day (59) years ago today. Their (and all WWII Veterans') sacrifice made it possible for us to enjoy such pursuits as "the greatest hobby in the world". Always remember! Best, Steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 17:35:26 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Top ten From: Beth Caples 1 How about the streamlined K-4 #3768 in plastic? People would buy a beautiful streamlined steamer even though they don't model the PRR just because it looks good! For example. How many bought the N&W 4-8-4 J and don't even model the N&W? 2 Baldwin Pass. Shark with 3 axle trucks in plastic 3 MP-54 in plastic 4 U-30c "Scale" plastic 5 PRR 2-10-4 plastic 6 Baldwin centipede Don't forget to vote! I did, John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Freitas" Subject: [PRR] top 10 Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 17:19:49 -0700 In fairness to all, my suggestions are: Lines East >>>> 1--powered MP54 kits with changeable side for all classes 2--P5/P5a 3--R1 4--DD2 All with cast d, aame & plastic bodies is ok 5--FF2 Lines West >>>> 1--H9/10 2--L1 3--I1 plastic bodies w/ heavy u-frames for pulling 4--N1s 5--Q2 If anyone would like to add an affordable pair of centipedes, that can be the replacement for one of the above. Random thoughts from the green mountain state. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Men in WWII Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 20:26:00 -0500 Stephen: Well written. Let us too not forget the PRR men (as well as all the men) who too part in the Battle of Midway which was concluding this week in 1942, 61 years ago. Someone reminded me today that both key battles of WW2, the Battle of Midway (June 4-7, 1942) and D-Day (June 6, 1944), occurred within the first week of June, two years apart from one another. Never forget and always remember! Ted Andrews ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen H. Prosser" To: Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 6:05 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR Men in WWII > Dear Listers, > > I hope this is allowed on the list, but I just wanted to remember all the > PRR men who landed on D-Day (59) years ago today. Their (and all WWII > Veterans') sacrifice made it possible for us to enjoy such pursuits as "the > greatest hobby in the world". > > Always remember! > > Best, > > Steve > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: [PRR] BLI M1a Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 21:28:21 -0400 I would suggest that you send BLI any comments or suggestion for improvements to the M1a model. They seem to be very receptive. One of the reasons for the delay in the Class A was the changes based feedback they got from pictures posted on their website. The original sample had the tender too high and some other problems. Most all of these appear to be corrected. I wish all manufacturers would put their early samples up for feedback. Eric --- Eric Lauterbach --- ealauterbach@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: RE: [PRR] L1 vs. L2 Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 21:33:48 -0400 I wonder if a Bachmann L1 is something that could happen in the future. While I would prefer a BLI or Life-Like L1, it wouldn't be bad. Eric --- Eric Lauterbach --- ealauterbach@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. > [Original Message] > From: > To: > Date: 6/6/03 5:22:04 PM > Subject: [PRR] L1 vs. L2 > > How do the wheel diameters compare on the L1 and the L2? Could an Athearn USRA > mike drive be put under a Bachman K4 shell to make an L1? This could possibly > be a fairly easy conversion. The tender guts from the mike would have to be > moved into a Bachman or Bowser tender however. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 21:54:15 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Ballpark at Zoo? --part1_198.1b581b2d.2c129fc7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I believe it is a softball field for the Amtrak Softball League. Chris B #1918 --part1_198.1b581b2d.2c129fc7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I believe it is a softball field for the Amtrak Softba= ll League.

Chris B  #1918 --part1_198.1b581b2d.2c129fc7_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 22:21:49 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] L1 vs. L2 In a message dated 6/6/03 4:29:05 PM Central Daylight Time, ndbprr@att.net writes: << Could an Athearn USRA mike drive be put under a Bachman K4 shell to make an L1? >> Forgetting everything else, you would have to change the valve gear. Never did that myself before. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Men in WWII Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 22:31:33 -0400 Gents, To ultimately memorialize everyone we should also include the numerous women that kept the PRR running while the men were at were. If it weren't for the great "Rosie the Riveter's" who would have made those shells to throw at the Japs and Nazis? We owe a great debt to everyone, whether they served overseas or on home turf. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 22:02:40 -0500 (CDT) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Model Railroader "most wanted Locomotives On Fri, 6 Jun 2003, Pennsy Nut wrote: > Hi Y'all > > The statements about the H6 are what I've been saying for years. "THE most > underproduced model". How many thousands did the Pennsy have? Lot's and > Lot's. And I can't remember the last time I've seen a brass one at a swap. I have to admit to being a bit puzzled...unless you model 1910 or some similar year, you need far more H8/9/10 than H6...Sure I can understand wanting one, I have one from Railworks (absent from the previous lists and arguably as good as or better than the Key). By the 1940's the ratios are something like 15 or 20:1 in favor of the H9. Finally, IMHO the H6 is the MOST common H class on eBay next to the Sunset H8/9...must be one a month. Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 23:06:12 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Classic Trains Hi All, I have been reading about the B & O in the latest Classic Trains. As mainly a PRR fan, I did not know the former Philadelphia B & O Station existed until reading that. I guess it would have been an easy assumption to think that the B & O would have a station in Philadelphia, but, not directly across from the PRR 30th Street Station. Does anyone have any photos of the B & O station, especially as it related to 30th Street? I know that area pretty well. I am trying to picture where it could have been. There is not much land on that side of the river. My friend used to live in a white High Rise condo building right across the river from 30th Street. He said that the track directly at the base of the building was former B & O. I s that where it was? The map in the article helped a little, but I like photos better. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 23:06:12 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Classic Trains Hi All, I have been reading about the B & O in the latest Classic Trains. As mainly a PRR fan, I did not know the former Philadelphia B & O Station existed until reading that. I guess it would have been an easy assumption to think that the B & O would have a station in Philadelphia, but, not directly across from the PRR 30th Street Station. Does anyone have any photos of the B & O station, especially as it related to 30th Street? I know that area pretty well. I am trying to picture where it could have been. There is not much land on that side of the river. My friend used to live in a white High Rise condo building right across the river from 30th Street. He said that the track directly at the base of the building was former B & O. I s that where it was? The map in the article helped a little, but I like photos better. Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Classic Trains Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 23:32:00 -0400 Bill, The station was actually on street level with stairs decending to a platform at track level. My father has an artists print of it hanging in the basement that he recieved as a gift. Overall the station was small compared to 30th Street. As far as i can recall it was like taking a Atlas passenger station, enlarging it a bit, and adding stairs to the water-level tracks. Sorry for the comparrison, but it's all i can think of at the moment. As for a 'realtime' location. I know that you were on the sunday trip at convention. If you can recall that the two bridges on either side of 30th Street the crossed the river had the original Stone Eagles from New York's Penn Sation. If you were looking towards the east taxi platform of 30th Street Station, the B&O Station would be behind you and to your left. Across the bridge just past the bridge over the river and tracks. This is all I have to offer right now. I'm sure that local Philadelphians can give an even better description. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Rea" Subject: [PRR] PRR containers Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 23:51:18 -0400 I have an HO Walthers container terminal with just 3 resin PRR style containers. These are not listed as a separate item. Does anyone know who made these in brass. And were any made in resin or styrene? Fred Rea ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR containers Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 23:59:47 -0400 Fred Rea wrote: "I have an HO Walthers container terminal with just 3 resin PRR style containers. These are not listed as a separate item. Does anyone know who made these in brass. And were any made in resin or styrene?" The Walthers containers are styrene and are available separately in 3-packs: LCL Bulk Containers, PRR http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-2102 Coke Containers, undec only http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-2120 Unfortunately, if you want to use one of their USRA steel gons as a container car, you'll need 12 LCL Bulk containers or 10 Coke Containers - not cheap @ $10.98 per 3-pack. Ben Hom --------------- hav---------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR containers Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 00:02:16 -0400 Ben Hom wrote: Coke Containers, undec only http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-2120 Oops - should have scrolled further down the page - the coke containers are available in PRR: http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-2122 Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 01:11:15 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR containers In a message dated 6/6/03 11:03:27 PM Central Daylight Time, b.hom@worldnet.att.net writes: << Unfortunately, if you want to use one of their USRA steel gons as a container car, you'll need 12 LCL Bulk containers or 10 Coke Containers - not cheap @ $10.98 per 3-pack. >> Also a rather rare PRR gon to carry any containers , I believe, though I'll bow to anyone who can find multiple photos of their doing so. In any case I think the original poster was referring not to the bulk containers but to the merchandise containers which only came with the container terminal. I would love to get some merchandise containers for my G22s (the more common carrier on the Pennsy of most containers, I believe, though never say n¯< × for the others). I have the Westerfield resin kit which includes a set of 9 together, as I recall, plus one stand-alone. I think that is still available, though I seem to have misplaced my hard-copy Westerfield list. Their website should indicate its availability. Containers carried by the G22 varied in number according to which trucks the car had. I'm not near my sources now, so can't remember the numbers. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR containers Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 01:14:04 -0400 Fred, The resin LCL containers that Walthers offers with the container terminal were done in brass by Railworks a while back. I think they're class DD1 (see ttp://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=dd1_dd1a_od.gif ) They offered them with their class FM and F30 flat cars. The containers are also available seperately but aren't cheap. I think they're like $15 a piece. You can try giving Crown Custom Products a call as they were selling them at the Springfield train show earlier this year. (631-692-8053 I think) Hope this helps, Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Benjamin Frank Hom Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 12:00 AM To: Fred Rea Cc: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR containers Fred Rea wrote: "I have an HO Walthers container terminal with just 3 resin PRR style containers. These are not listed as a separate item. Does anyone know who made these in brass. And were any made in resin or styrene?" The Walthers containers are styrene and are available separately in 3-packs: LCL Bulk Containers, PRR http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-2102 Coke Containers, undec only http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-2120 Unfortunately, if you want to use one of their USRA steel gons as a container car, you'll need 12 LCL Bulk containers or 10 Coke Containers - not cheap @ $10.98 per 3-pack. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 01:24:46 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Model Railroader "most wanted Locomotives In a message dated 6/6/03 10:07:52 PM Central Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << I have to admit to being a bit puzzled...unless you model 1910 or some similar year, you need far more H8/9/10 than H6. >> I had the same thought, Bruce. I am partial to the H10, myself. In fact, I would really like to see Broadway Limited do that loco, though I would accept a Lines East H9 (:-)). However, I think it would be low priority because commercially the bigger engines sell more cross-market. That is, an H10 (or 9) would be spectacularly useful for yard switching and local freights to a Pennsy guy and for smaller Pennsy layouts where the realism of sound would be a bonus, but the eclectic buying public is more interested in "BIG" steam at this point, even if they only run it around in a circle now and then. I predict the cab-forward will outsell them all for that reason. I have a brass H10 but am a little apprehensive about attacking a beautiful factory painted vintage model to make it ready for DCC For my second choice I am still pining for an FS20m. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 07:33:34 EDT Subject: [PRR] Three different "Return to" worlds... --part1_1cc.b30431c.2c13278e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/4/03 3:30:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Return Route Subject > From: "edmund burbage" > Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 07:58:35 -0400 > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C32A6F.19C6C7E0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Many Rail Freight Cars are used in a Return Route sequence. I have seen = > a Grain Car stenciled Return to and a company in Cape May, NJ for Fish = > Meal Loading only. > > I have seen many many Grain Loading Cars stenciled this way also with = > the Return Route message.A return route car could be used for any = > product, not just Auto Parts. > > Lee > I agree that there were return routes set up for many different types of cars and many different products shipped. But keep in mind that assigned pool cars such as this pool 195 car obviously is, are usually intended to return to a single pool for reloading a single commodity. Only an "equipped" boxcar can be so assigned under Car Service Directive 145, but an XML (later XL) has qualifying equipment. If the CSD 145 pool 195 is steering gear loading at the Ford Indy plant, that's all that car is supposed to be loaded with; often the special loaders or racks make the car useless for any other load. Note that this usage probably differs from a marking that says "return to the L&N for plywood loading", where the railroad is furnishing special cars to a whole group of customers, supplied as they are needed. And it's totally different from a privately operated car (with reporting marks ending in "X"), which goes where the owner or lessor says it can go. A leased tank car or leased covered hopper goes wherever its lessor directs -- no one else can load the car or even route it. Thus "return to West Bilgewater for bat guano loading" really means "leased to West Bilgewater Guano Company, keepa you hansoff and then we'll tell you when to send it back". These rules may play a little differently in the 90's and 00's, but back when railroads were railroads, that's the way it was... Incidentally, I agree it was once more common to ship auto parts in 50' cars than 40'. This reflected conversion of the fleet of 50' auto boxes that used to have auto loaders for outbound finished automobiles, but were obsoleted by the rise of the regional assembly plant, which substituted rail shipment of parts for rail shipment of finished product. However, if the load was heavy enough (think castings like engine blocks, or assembled engines, or assembled transmissions), a 40' car is logical; even a 40' car can be loaded with 50 tons of steel castings and not be loaded to the roof. It's true I have no firm evidence that X43B's were in Ford service in Indy -- but the dribble of X37 and X26C 40 footers mentioned by Elden Gatwood means it's dangerous to say "never"... Unfortunately, good records of cars assigned to given CSD145 pools are hard to come by -- this was confidential info, since if GM knew exactly how many cars Ford had, they could complain that a GM pool wasn't big enough, etc. We are reduced to reading old carsides and are lucky when we find any other sources. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_1cc.b30431c.2c13278e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/4/03 3:30:24 PM Eastern Daylight=20= Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Return Route Subject From: "edmund burbage" <leeprrswitchkey@msn.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 07:58:35 -0400

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=3D_NextPart_000_0012_01C32A6F.19C6C7E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset=3D"iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Many Rail Freight Cars are used in a Return Route sequence. I have seen =3D<= BR> a Grain Car stenciled Return to and a company in Cape May, NJ for Fish =3D Meal Loading only.

I have seen many many Grain Loading Cars stenciled this way also with =3D the Return Route message.A return route car could be used for any =3D
product, not just Auto Parts.

Lee


I agree that there were return routes set up for many different types of car= s and many different products shipped.  But keep in mind that assigned=20= pool cars such as this pool 195 car obviously is, are usually intended to re= turn to a single pool for reloading a single commodity.  Only an "equip= ped" boxcar can be so assigned under Car Service Directive 145, but an XML (= later XL) has qualifying equipment.  If the CSD 145 pool 195 is steerin= g gear loading at the Ford Indy plant, that's all that car is supposed to be= loaded with; often the special loaders or racks make the car useless for an= y other load.

Note that this usage probably differs from a marking that says "return to th= e L&N for plywood loading", where the railroad is furnishing special car= s to a whole group of customers, supplied as they are needed.  And it's= totally different from a privately operated car (with reporting marks endin= g in "X"), which goes where the owner or lessor says it can go.  A leas= ed tank car or leased covered hopper goes wherever its lessor directs -- no=20= one else can load the car or even route it.  Thus "return to West Bilge= water for bat guano loading" really means "leased to West Bilgewater Guano C= ompany, keepa you hansoff and then we'll tell you when to send it back".

These rules may play a little differently in the 90's and 00's, but back whe= n railroads were railroads, that's the way it was...

Incidentally, I agree it was once more common to ship auto parts in 50' cars= than 40'.  This reflected conversion of the fleet of 50' auto boxes th= at used to have auto loaders for outbound finished automobiles, but were obs= oleted by the rise of the regional assembly plant, which substituted rail sh= ipment of parts for rail shipment of finished product. 

However, if the load was heavy enough (think castings like engine blocks, or= assembled engines, or assembled transmissions), a 40' car is logical; even=20= a 40' car can be loaded with 50 tons of steel castings and not be loaded to=20= the roof.   It's true I have no firm evidence that X43B's were in=20= Ford service in Indy -- but the dribble of X37 and X26C 40 footers mentioned= by Elden Gatwood means it's dangerous to say "never"...

Unfortunately, good records of cars assigned to given CSD145 pools are hard=20= to come by -- this was confidential info, since if GM knew exactly how many=20= cars Ford had, they could complain that a GM pool wasn't big enough, etc.&nb= sp; We are reduced to reading old carsides and are lucky when we find any ot= her sources.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_1cc.b30431c.2c13278e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 07:33:50 EDT Subject: [PRR] Kadee filing --part1_2b.41623073.2c13279e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/4/03 3:30:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50b's > From: "John Frantz" > Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 12:02:04 -0400 > > This past weekend I purchased a Post-War Two Pack. I > changed the McHenry Couplers to Kadees. There is only a > slight problem. The plate holding the coupler in the box > needs to be a quarter-turn looser than absolutely tight. > This way the spring will still work. Just a little hint > for everybody. > > John > Give the shank of your Kadees an extra swipe with a file (Kadee instructions tell you to do that to remove burrs). Then the screw may fit properly... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_2b.41623073.2c13279e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/4/03 3:30:24 PM Eastern Daylight=20= Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50= b's
From: "John Frantz" <johnf2384@suscom.net>
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 12:02:04 -0400

This past weekend I purchased a Post-War Two Pack. I
changed the McHenry Couplers to Kadees. There is only a
slight problem. The plate holding the coupler in the box
needs to be a quarter-turn looser than absolutely tight.
This way the spring will still work. Just a little hint
for everybody.

John


Give the shank of your Kadees an extra swipe with a file (Kadee instructions= tell you to do that to remove burrs).  Then the screw may fit properly= ...

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_2b.41623073.2c13279e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR containers Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 08:26:29 -0400 I was just scrolling through the Walthers weekly dealer updates and in the Future Arrivals Section there is a listing for an Eastern Car Works PRR Merchandise container (117-9200) with a MSRP of $5.00. Arrival date is TBD. Any of you know anything about this item? Frank Brua -----Original Message----- From: Rob Schoenberg To: Benjamin Frank Hom ; Fred Rea Cc: PRR-Talk Date: Saturday, June 07, 2003 1:21 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR containers >Fred, > >The resin LCL containers that Walthers offers with the container terminal >were done in brass by Railworks a while back. I think they're class DD1 >(see >ttp://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=dd1_dd1a_od.gif ) > >They offered them with their class FM and F30 flat cars. The containers are >also available seperately but aren't cheap. I think they're like $15 a >piece. You can try giving Crown Custom Products a call as they were selling >them at the Springfield train show earlier this year. (631-692-8053 I >think) > >Hope this helps, > >Rob > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Benjamin >Frank Hom >Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 12:00 AM >To: Fred Rea >Cc: PRR-Talk >Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR containers > > >Fred Rea wrote: >"I have an HO Walthers container terminal with just 3 resin PRR style >containers. These are not listed as a separate item. Does anyone know who >made these in brass. And were any made in resin or styrene?" > > >The Walthers containers are styrene and are available separately in 3-packs: > >LCL Bulk Containers, PRR >http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-2102 > >Coke Containers, undec only >http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-2120 > >Unfortunately, if you want to use one of their USRA steel gons as a >container car, you'll need 12 LCL Bulk containers or 10 Coke Containers - >not cheap @ $10.98 per 3-pack. > > >Ben Hom > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 09:33:49 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Classic Trains --part1_117.248cb512.2c1343bd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The B&O station in downtown Philadelphia was on the south side of Chestnut Street. So it technically wasn't "right across" from the P.R.R.'s station at 30th & Market Sts. The 'back side' of the Main Post Office was sorta kitty-corner [across the river] to the B&O station. I can't remember whether there was a fire or the building was simply demolished, but I believe the B&O had replaced their gothic monstrosity with a smaller, more spartan and utilitarian structure not too long before the end of B&O passenger service on the Royal Blue Route sometime around 1957. Chris B #1918 --part1_117.248cb512.2c1343bd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The B&O station in downtown Philadelphia was on th= e south side of Chestnut Street.  So it technically wasn't "right acros= s" from the P.R.R.'s station at 30th & Market Sts.  The 'back side'= of the Main Post Office was sorta kitty-corner [across the river] to the B&= amp;O station.

I can't remember whether there was a fire or the building was simply demolis= hed, but I believe the B&O had replaced their gothic monstrosity with a=20= smaller, more spartan and utilitarian structure not too long before the end=20= of B&O passenger service on the Royal Blue Route sometime around=20= 1957.

Chris B  #1918 --part1_117.248cb512.2c1343bd_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Classic Trains Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 11:04:43 -0400 I had a look at my dads print this morning. The station was on the corner of 24th and Chestnut Sts. Frank Furness was the architect. The station was indeed victorian. It had a four-story circular tower in the corner facing the railroad and bridge across the schyukill river. John >I am really going back in the recesses of my mind but it >was victorian, had at >least on turret or tower, seem to remember it being brick >and more like a >three or four story house than a station. There was a >model railroad club on ?one of the uppee florrs in later years. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: [PRR] dwarf signals Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 20:39:14 -0400 Friends: When I was a youngster, I remember seeing a three light, two position dwarf signal near the station at Lancaster, PA. Since then, I don't believe I have seen any. Where were these signals usually located, what was their purpose and what did the positions indicate. Some of the illustrations I have seen of dwarf signals showed what looked like three aspects, vertical, diagonal up to the right and horizontal, using four lights. Lew How long a minute is depends on what side of the bathroom door you're on. Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Waste Management and Energy Systems. Advocating water for life through sustainable agriculture, sustainable toilets, sustainable gray water systems and sustainable green construction. Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O., B.O.C.A.I. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Narrow Gauge Operations Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 09:44:45 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C34147.BC8F57A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill: The Waynesburg and Washington was Pennsy's only operating 3 foot narrow = gage railroad and was never changed to standard gage. It ran in = southwestern PA between Washington and Waynesburg, both towns are = located along Interstate 79. The roadbed is still in existence along = with all the bridges and can be walked. Many of the structures are = still in place and in good repair, being used by local farmers who have = "claimed" the right of way on their land. The right of way is still = owned in total by a holding company in Ohio(?). I would like to see this RR rebuilt as a light rail and connect the = existing Pittsburgh light rail, located in North Washington, and run = through Waynesburg to Morgantown W Va. A Baldwin 2-6-0 w/tender from the W&W is on display at the Waynesburg = Historical Society, just minutes from I 79. This loco looks like the = Bachman On30 (or is it the other way around????). Jim Weinshanker is the resident expert on the W&W and is currently = writing a book on the subject. It is scheduled for printing very soon. = Contact Gary Kohler of the Maine 2 foot publications m2fq@aol.com for = details on availability etc. This book will have all new, unpublished = photos. There is also a periodical about the W&W published by Jim. Lew How long a minute is depends on what side of the bathroom door you're = on. Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Waste Management and = Energy Systems. Advocating water for life through sustainable = agriculture, sustainable toilets, sustainable gray water systems and = sustainable green construction. Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O., B.O.C.A.I. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Laird=20 To: Talk PRR=20 Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 9:10 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR Narrow Gauge Operations What narrow gauge operations took place on the Pennsy? I am aware of = the interchange with the East Broad Top. Were there interchanges with = other narrow gauge lines? Did the Pennsy operate any narrow gauge track = or equipment? Bill Laird Canyon Lake, TX Building 2 1/2" scale NG equipment to opeate on 7 1/2" gauge track ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C34147.BC8F57A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bill:
 
The Waynesburg and Washington was = Pennsy's only=20 operating 3 foot narrow gage railroad and was never changed to standard=20 gage.  It ran in southwestern PA between Washington and Waynesburg, = both=20 towns are located along Interstate 79.  The roadbed is still = in=20 existence along with all the bridges and can be walked.  Many of = the=20 structures are still in place and in good repair, being used by local = farmers=20 who have "claimed" the right of way on their land.  The right of = way is=20 still owned in total by a holding company in Ohio(?).
 
I would like to see this RR rebuilt as = a light rail=20 and connect the existing Pittsburgh light rail, located = in North=20 Washington, and run through Waynesburg to Morgantown W = Va.
 
A Baldwin 2-6-0 w/tender from the = W&W is on=20 display at the Waynesburg Historical Society, just minutes from I = 79.  This=20 loco looks like the Bachman On30 (or is it the other way=20 around????).
 
Jim Weinshanker is the resident expert = on the=20 W&W and is currently writing a book on the subject.  It is = scheduled=20 for printing very soon.  Contact Gary Kohler of the Maine 2 foot=20 publications m2fq@aol.com for = details on=20 availability etc.  This book will have all new,=20 unpublished photos.  There = is also a=20 periodical about the W&W published by Jim.
 
Lew
 
 
 
How long a minute is depends on what side of the bathroom door = you're=20 on.
 
Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Waste Management = and Energy=20 Systems.  Advocating water for life through sustainable = agriculture, =20 sustainable toilets,  sustainable gray water systems and  = sustainable=20 green construction.
Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O., = B.O.C.A.I.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bill=20 Laird
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 = 9:10 AM
Subject: [PRR] PRR Narrow Gauge = Operations

What narrow gauge operations took place on the = Pennsy? =20 I am aware of the interchange with the East Broad Top.  Were = there=20 interchanges with other narrow gauge lines?  Did the Pennsy = operate any=20 narrow gauge track or equipment?
 
Bill Laird
Canyon Lake, TX
Building 2 1/2" scale NG equipment to opeate on 7 = 1/2" gauge=20 track
 
------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C34147.BC8F57A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Narrow Gauge Operations Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 12:24:30 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007A_01C3415E.0D872DC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I believe that RR and the others, except W&W, were eventually regaged to = standard. Lew How long a minute is depends on what side of the bathroom door you're = on. Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Waste Management and = Energy Systems. Advocating water for life through sustainable = agriculture, sustainable toilets, sustainable gray water systems and = sustainable green construction. Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O., B.O.C.A.I. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Gregg Mahlkov=20 To: Lewis J. Matt PhD ; PRR-Talk LIST ; Bill Laird=20 Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 10:47 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Narrow Gauge Operations Lew, What about the Ohio River & Western from Bellaire to Zanesville, OH? = It was owned by PRR and 3ft gauge. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lewis J. Matt PhD=20 To: PRR-Talk LIST ; Bill Laird=20 Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 9:44 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Narrow Gauge Operations Bill: The Waynesburg and Washington was Pennsy's only operating 3 foot = narrow gage railroad and was never changed to standard gage. It ran in = southwestern PA between Washington and Waynesburg, both towns are = located along Interstate 79. The roadbed is still in existence along = with all the bridges and can be walked. Many of the structures are = still in place and in good repair, being used by local farmers who have = "claimed" the right of way on their land. The right of way is still = owned in total by a holding company in Ohio(?). I would like to see this RR rebuilt as a light rail and connect the = existing Pittsburgh light rail, located in North Washington, and run = through Waynesburg to Morgantown W Va. A Baldwin 2-6-0 w/tender from the W&W is on display at the = Waynesburg Historical Society, just minutes from I 79. This loco looks = like the Bachman On30 (or is it the other way around????). Jim Weinshanker is the resident expert on the W&W and is currently = writing a book on the subject. It is scheduled for printing very soon. = Contact Gary Kohler of the Maine 2 foot publications m2fq@aol.com for = details on availability etc. This book will have all new, unpublished = photos. There is also a periodical about the W&W published by Jim. Lew How long a minute is depends on what side of the bathroom door = you're on. Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Waste Management and = Energy Systems. Advocating water for life through sustainable = agriculture, sustainable toilets, sustainable gray water systems and = sustainable green construction. Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O., B.O.C.A.I. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Laird=20 To: Taith RR=20 Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 9:10 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR Narrow Gauge Operations What narrow gauge operations took place on the Pennsy? I am aware = of the interchange with the East Broad Top. Were there interchanges = with other narrow gauge lines? Did the Pennsy operate any narrow gauge = track or equipment? Bill Laird Canyon Lake, TX Building 2 1/2" scale NG equipment to opeate on 7 1/2" gauge track ------=_NextPart_000_007A_01C3415E.0D872DC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I believe that RR and the others, = except=20 W&W, were eventually regaged to standard.
 
Lew
 
 
 
How long a minute is depends on what side of the bathroom door = you're=20 on.
 
Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Waste Management = and Energy=20 Systems.  Advocating water for life through sustainable = agriculture, =20 sustainable toilets,  sustainable gray water systems and  = sustainable=20 green construction.
Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O., = B.O.C.A.I.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Gregg = Mahlkov=20
To: Lewis J. Matt PhD ; PRR-Talk = LIST ; Bill=20 Laird
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 = 10:47=20 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Narrow = Gauge=20 Operations

Lew,
 
What about the Ohio River & Western from = Bellaire to=20 Zanesville, OH? It was owned by PRR and 3ft gauge.
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Lewis = J. Matt=20 PhD
To: PRR-Talk LIST ; Bill=20 Laird
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 = 9:44=20 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Narrow = Gauge=20 Operations

Bill:
 
The Waynesburg and Washington was = Pennsy's only=20 operating 3 foot narrow gage railroad and was never changed to = standard=20 gage.  It ran in southwestern PA between Washington and = Waynesburg,=20 both towns are located along Interstate 79.  The roadbed = is still=20 in existence along with all the bridges and can be walked.  = Many of the=20 structures are still in place and in good repair, being used by = local=20 farmers who have "claimed" the right of way on their land.  The = right=20 of way is still owned in total by a holding company in = Ohio(?).
 
I would like to see this RR rebuilt = as a light=20 rail and connect the existing Pittsburgh light rail, located=20 in North Washington, and run through Waynesburg to = Morgantown W=20 Va.
 
A Baldwin 2-6-0 w/tender from the = W&W is on=20 display at the Waynesburg Historical Society, just minutes from I = 79. =20 This loco looks like the Bachman On30 (or is it the other way=20 around????).
 
Jim Weinshanker is the resident = expert on the=20 W&W and is currently writing a book on the subject.  It is=20 scheduled for printing very soon.  Contact Gary Kohler of the = Maine 2=20 foot publications m2fq@aol.com for=20 details on availability etc.  This book will have all new,=20 unpublished photos.  There is also=20 a periodical about the W&W published by Jim.
 
Lew
 
 
 
How long a minute is depends on what side of the bathroom door = you're=20 on.
 
Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Waste = Management and=20 Energy Systems.  Advocating water for life through sustainable=20 agriculture,  sustainable toilets,  sustainable gray water = systems=20 and  sustainable green construction.
Lewis J. Matt III, = Ph.D.,=20 C.S.E.O., B.O.C.A.I.
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Bill=20 Laird
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 = 9:10=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] PRR Narrow = Gauge=20 Operations

What narrow gauge operations took place on the = Pennsy?  I am aware of the interchange with the East Broad = Top. =20 Were there interchanges with other narrow gauge lines?  Did = the=20 Pennsy operate any narrow gauge track or equipment?
 
Bill Laird
Canyon Lake, TX
Building 2 1/2" scale NG equipment to opeate = on 7 1/2"=20 gauge track
 
------=_NextPart_000_007A_01C3415E.0D872DC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Haltoona and water Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 08:50:58 -0400 You said, "what's next? some crazyness like "water" isn't pronounced "wuhdder"? Yes, that's right! In "Mainline" jargon, water is pronounced "warter" which is used to make "Hawn 'n Hadat kauwfee" (Horn and Hardart coffee) Lew How long a minute is depends on what side of the bathroom door you're on. Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Waste Management and Energy Systems. Advocating water for life through sustainable agriculture, sustainable toilets, sustainable gray water systems and sustainable green construction. Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O., B.O.C.A.I. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Charyna" To: "PRR-Talk Posting" Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 12:58 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Haltoona > > No as in Payoli, > > you mean it's not pronounced "Payoli"? > what's next? some crazyness like "water" isn't pronounced "wuhdder"? ;) > > There used to be (5 years ago) a conductor on Septa's R7... > Would call them out as > Briiiiiides...burg! > Wisssss-ono-MING! > Ta-coney! > then he'd let you down by announcing > Holmesburg Junction in a monotone. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Volkmer" > To: "'Tom Mahon'" ; ; > > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 5:36 AM > Subject: RE: [PRR] Haltoona > > > > No as in Payoli, Lannnnnnncaster, Hairrrrrisburg, Lewissssssstown, Mount > > Union, Tyrone, Halllllltoona, Johnstown, Latrobe, Greensburg, East > > Libbbbberty, and Pittsburgh. > > > > And that's just the way it wuz. > > > > WDV > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tom Mahon [mailto:tmahon@adelphia.net] > > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 7:59 AM > > To: Bill Volkmer; RDG2124@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Haltoona > > > > > > As in BEEutiful, Phildelfya, and Igles?? > > > > Tom Mahon > > formerly of Mt Ephraim, NJ > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Bill Volkmer > > To: RDG2124@aol.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 8:06 AM > > Subject: RE: [PRR] Haltoona > > > > THAT's the way the Station Announcer at North Philadelphia pronounced > > it, so that's the way Philadelphians pronounce it! > > > > WDV > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of > > RDG2124@aol.com > > Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 9:40 PM > > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > > Subject: [PRR] Haltoona > > > > > > For the second time on this list, I have seen the name Haltoona used > > with respect to passenger car repairs. Is there such a place or shop or > > is this a humorous way of pronouncing Altoona?? > > > > Evan Leisey > > RCT&HS 346 > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR narrow gauge Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 08:55:55 -0400 I need Jim's book to have a more accurate "account" of the W&W. Lew How long a minute is depends on what side of the bathroom door you're on. Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Waste Management and Energy Systems. Advocating water for life through sustainable agriculture, sustainable toilets, sustainable gray water systems and sustainable green construction. Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O., B.O.C.A.I. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Weinschenker" To: Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 6:10 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR narrow gauge > Hi folks... > > Jim Weinschenker here...reporting in on my railroad...the Waynesburg & > Washington RR. > > The PRR purchased the W&W in 1885 as a result of a stock proxy battle with > the B&O. The W&W ran under its own flag until 1920 when the Pennsy > reorganized and relettered all W&W equipment "PENNSYLVANIA". The line was > standard gauged in 1943/1944 with only a single test run under steam. A Ford > railtruck as well as Fairmont type speeder cars serviced the line up until > the early 1970s. > > The only surviving locomotive from the seven Moguls is second #4 (9684), an > American Locomotive/Cooke Works product. It is currently housed at the > Greene County Museum in Waynesburg and is awaiting funds for restoration to > operating condition. > > At the end of all steam operations in April 1933, the W&W sent a few > gondolas to the Ohio River & Western for their use. Ed Cass published a > photo of a W&W gon in his book, "Hidden Treasures". Contrary to popular > belief, the two roads never exchanged locomotives. > > As my good friend Dr. Matt alluded to, my book will be released October 2003 > and contains over 200 previously unpublished photos. I even have a photo of > th----nstruction company locomotive that regauged the line. It's shown > dumping cinders to fill in Elm Street Trestle just outside of Washington. > > I am still taking pre-orders for the book. Hit the Light Iron Digest > website to order or hit the narrowtracks website to see my baby...Loco #4. > > Feel free to contact me should you have any further questions on the W&W. > > Thanks for your time..... > > JIM > > Jim Weinschenker > 775 Race Street > Waynesburg, PA 15370 > > M2FQ Publications, Accounts Manager > http://www.lightirondigest.com/ > http://www.narrowtracks.com/wwrr/index.htm > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Pattirobpatti@cs.com Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 13:34:34 EDT Subject: [PRR] RE: BLI M1a I went to the BLI website. The preproduction model is VERY impressive. I noticed that the engine number was "6716", which is one of the numbers offered for the M1b. The preproduction model shown has a freight step pilot (not cast), the "lower" headlight postion, and no recirculator fans on the firebox, though. I guess they just put one of their M1b numbers on the M1a model. An M1b started out as an M1a, anyway. Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Invitation to attend Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 21:40:30 +0000 Since people are plnanning or have planned their summer vacations I thought I would extend an invitation to attend the Chicago Chapter PRRT&HS meeting on Saturday 7/26. We will meet at 1PM to tour what is left of the Pullman factory followed by our regular meeting in the Pullman Visitors Center. Our program will be a presentation on Lines West by Fred Ripley. Anyone interested in attending just drop me an E mail and I will provide you with directions. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR containers Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 18:19:43 -0400 No idea about them but the Walthers web site lists 9200 as decals for the containers. The containers are listed as 9032, MSRP of $20. Hopefully for more than one container!!! http://www.walthers.com/exec/search?manu=117&keywords=merchandise Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of parkvarieties Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 8:26 AM To: Rob Schoenberg; Benjamin Frank Hom; Fred Rea Cc: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR containers I was just scrolling through the Walthers weekly dealer updates and in the Future Arrivals Section there is a listing for an Eastern Car Works PRR Merchandise container (117-9200) with a MSRP of $5.00. Arrival date is TBD. Any of you know anything about this item? Frank Brua -----Original Message----- From: Rob Schoenberg To: Benjamin Frank Hom ; Fred Rea Cc: PRR-Talk Date: Saturday, June 07, 2003 1:21 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR containers >Fred, > >The resin LCL containers that Walthers offers with the container terminal >were done in brass by Railworks a while back. I think they're class DD1 >(see >ttp://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=dd1_dd1a_od.gif ) > >They offered them with their class FM and F30 flat cars. The containers are >also available seperately but aren't cheap. I think they're like $15 a >piece. You can try giving Crown Custom Products a call as they were selling >them at the Springfield train show earlier this year. (631-692-8053 I >think) > >Hope this helps, > >Rob > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Benjamin >Frank Hom >Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 12:00 AM >To: Fred Rea >Cc: PRR-Talk >Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR containers > > >Fred Rea wrote: >"I have an HO Walthers container terminal with just 3 resin PRR style >containers. These are not listed as a separate item. Does anyone know who >made these in brass. And were any made in resin or styrene?" > > >The Walthers containers are styrene and are available separately in 3-packs: > >LCL Bulk Containers, PRR >http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-2102 > >Coke Containers, undec only >http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-2120 > >Unfortunately, if you want to use one of their USRA steel gons as a >container car, you'll need 12 LCL Bulk containers or 10 Coke Containers - >not cheap @ $10.98 per 3-pack. > > >Ben Hom > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Rea" Subject: [PRR] Fw: PRR containers Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 20:39:33 -0400 Thanks to all who replied. Yes, I goofed. I should have said MERCHANDISE containers. I'll have to keep an eye peeled for the ECW version. I'd ;like to have a few in my container yard and one or two on the dock of a local industry or two. Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Rea" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 11:51 PM Subject: PRR containers > I have an HO Walthers container terminal with just 3 resin PRR style > containers. These are not listed as a separate item. Does anyone know who > made these in brass. And were any made in resin or styrene? > > Fred Rea > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 22:20:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] B6sb-Gettin Closer! List, Not much going on with my B6sb the last several months. Although I have been getting it nearer to completion. Still aways to go, brake shoes, springs among other minor details. With a redesigned mechanism it actually ran on a 20 ft section of track! A bit-o-tweaking and I can call it quits and concentrate on a paint job. Here are a few pics. Thanks, Gary 95% finished Tender: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000979.jpg Loco/Tender http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000980.jpg Loco/Tended: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000981.jpg Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 22:52:45 EDT Subject: [PRR] Conrail Diesels --part1_121.22bdf774.2c13fefd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is slightly off subject. A fellow modeler, that spent the mid 76 to 80 in the Air Force in New York state, is trying to locate photos or a book of photos on the Conrail diesels in their native road paint schemes with the Conrail over painting of the road numbers and names, and logos. Does such a book, website or source of photos exist for this early Conrail period? Thanks in advance, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 --part1_121.22bdf774.2c13fefd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   This is slightly off subject.  A fellow mo= deler, that spent the mid 76 to 80 in the Air Force in New York state, is tr= ying to locate photos or a book of photos on the Conrail diesels in their na= tive road paint schemes with the Conrail over painting of the road numbers a= nd names, and logos.  Does such a book, website or source of photos exi= st for this early Conrail period?

Thanks in advance,

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346 --part1_121.22bdf774.2c13fefd_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 23:24:53 EDT Subject: [PRR] More on a Cincinnati-Xenia PRR track plan --part1_97.39cd901c.2c140685_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/6/03 7:45:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > Interesting, Rick. One way to solve the track problems, such as having the > Zanesville branch entering from the east is to construct the layout so you > are looking east, not west. This would allow the constuction of the hills > behind the track and the modeling of a riverbank, not a whole river in the > foreground. Not a good solution. If the (low) hills are against the backdrop on this (middle) part of the layout, you get very, very high hills in front down at the Cincinnati end of the line, where they get in the way of switching, etc. This problem is caused by the railroad swapping sides of the Little Miami River at Miamiville. But see discussion below... I was wondering why you omitted Middletown junction and its traffic serving the > ARMCO steel works in Middletown. Its entry from the west, foreground in > this alignment, presents a challenge. Tom, The largest problem with a layout concept for the Little Miami line out of Cincinnati is that you have to pick a view of the line from one side of the line or the other, and then stick with it. This means part of the layout will have hills in back (the norm for model railroads), and the other part will have hills rising in front of the main. The only alternative to this would be if you switched "timetable east" from right to left at the river crossing (e.g. went up a helix). And personally, I dislike "flipping" timetable directions in a track plan -- it decreases believability when you operate. On the prototype, the Cincinnati end is a natural "from the river", with the city and its hills forming a tall, tall background with the "river in the aisle" from downtown Cincinnati up to Miamiville. A little riverbank could be thrown in right in front from place to place for variety, but the normal scenery from trackside down to the water is a thick tangle of deciduous trees, so modeling the river in front is a nonissue. From the same (geographically south and southeast) stance, running from Miamiville north, the railroad runs on ground rising from the river behind the track. With riverbank trees just in front of the backdrop, we don't have to model any river at all. Around Fort Ancient, the scenery rises sharply in front of the track, creating a view block. Above the gorge, the right of way through Waynesville (the post office is Corwin, but the ETT calls this Waynesville), and for the rest of the run into Xenia, the railroad is away from the riverbank and the right of way is flat enough that it doesn't matter which way the land slopes. At Xenia station itself, I prefer viewing the scene from the south, with downtown up the hill behind it. All in all, this interpretation of the prototype gives us eastbound trains going to the right (a convention you'll find me using on pretty much any layout I draw up), and let's us use the "deepest" scenery at Cincinnati as a backdrop, with the "deep" scenery at Fort Ancient as a view block both in front and in back. Modelers seem reluctant to use scenery where you "look over" a hill at the tracks, but I've seen this used to very good advantage in the past. Watching the top half of a train go by is one more experience that reminds us of railfanning, and the front barrier can get lower where switching/reaching is desirable. That's why I think the riverbank with some "shallow hills in front" above Miamiville would be effective. You call me to task for not mentioning the Middletown Branch -- it was just one of many scenic/operational features that I would have included if this had been an MR "Railroad You Could Model" article instead of a quick posting on the merit of considering the Cincinnati main line. This branch's placement going off to the east across the Little Miami River is obvious; with the orientation I've described, the track need only run back to meet a through truss bridge portal surrounded by trees set into the backdrop. Naturally, it'd be nice if the track could be continued behind that backdrop into two or three staging tracks; Armco Steel at Middletown Ohio used to pump out a lot of carloads for PRR from the end of that branch (first, Middletown and Reed Yard, later just from New Reed Yard when the plant expansion cut off the town part of the branch). Trafficwise, the Middletown Branch is probably more important than the Zanesville Branch, which takes off east at Morrow. The C&MV/Zanesville probably needs only one staging track, unless you're really determined to run a passenger train on this decaying streak of rust. Fortunately, this line didn't come off the Little Miami at ninety degrees -- it just came off and ran up Todd's Fork. Rather than run that track out into the aisle, it could hug the front edge of the benchwork and proceed to the right until it "disappears" under the rising front scenery east of Morrow. Extending it by enough to model industries would be really stretching things, unless you're truly desperate for another small country grain elevator. So far, I've talked about the advantages of modeling this line from the "east". Now let's look at doing it from the "west": You may not be aware of Jim Kendig's N scale track plan modeling from Xenia west to both Dayton and Cincinnati. In his space, it works out for the Panhandle main line to come from the east and divide at Xenia. The line into Dayton continues along a wall to the left, and is viewed from the aisle as if looking "north". However, across the aisle is the Cincinnati line, viewed as if looking "south". Everything including the C&MV/Zanesville Branch lays out nicely from Xenia down to Middletown Junction, but that line has to be modeled reversed (otherwise the Middletown Branch would end up in the aisle). Once Jim's layout heads on down past Miamiville and has crossed the deck trusses to the west bank of the Little Miami River, the high ground (lots of it) is in front. Jim sees this as enough of a problem that he is tempted to model this "reversed" so as to have rising hills in the background (and also the nice backdrop of factory facades behind Undercliff). This may be the best option to keep things switchable, but since this is N scale probably should be "mocked up" and studied life size before any bridges are burned. Incidentally, Tom, did you realize there are at least two models of Dayton Union Station now in the works? Jim's got one on his pike, and Bob Fink, Dayton rail historian and famed builder of the Dayton, Duluth, and Western pike, is building the other in HO on his new home layout. Finally, the Panhandle lines centered on Xenia are getting some attention... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_97.39cd901c.2c140685_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/6/03 7:45:25 AM Eastern Daylight=20= Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes:


Interesting, Rick. One way to s= olve the track problems, such as having the Zanesville branch entering from=20= the east is to construct the layout so you are looking east, not west. This=20= would allow the constuction of the hills behind the track and the modeling o= f a riverbank, not a whole river in the foreground.


Not a good solution.  I= f the (low) hills are against the backdrop on this (middle) part of the layo= ut, you get very, very high hills in front down at the Cincinnati end of the= line, where they get in the way of switching, etc.  This problem is ca= used by the railroad swapping sides of the Little Miami River at Miamiville.=   But see discussion below...

I was wondering why you omitted Middletown junction and its traffic serving= the
ARMCO steel works in Middletown. Its entry from the west,&n= bsp; foreground in this alignment, presents a challenge.


Tom,

The largest problem with a layout concept for the Little Miami line out of C= incinnati is that you have to pick a view of the line from one side of the l= ine or the other, and then stick with it.  This means part of the layou= t will have hills in back (the norm for model railroads), and the other part= will have hills rising in front of the main.  The only alternative to=20= this would be if you switched "timetable east" from right to left at the riv= er crossing (e.g. went up a helix).  And personally, I dislike "flippin= g" timetable directions in a track plan -- it decreases believability when y= ou operate.

On the prototype, the Cincinnati end is a natural "from the river", with the= city and its hills forming a tall, tall background with the "river in the a= isle" from downtown Cincinnati up to Miamiville.  A little riverbank co= uld be thrown in right in front from place to place for variety, but the nor= mal scenery from trackside down to the water is a thick tangle of deciduous=20= trees, so modeling the river in front is a nonissue.  From the same (ge= ographically south and southeast) stance, running from Miamiville north, the= railroad runs on ground rising from the river behind the track.  With=20= riverbank trees just in front of the backdrop, we don't have to model any ri= ver at all.  Around Fort Ancient, the scenery rises sharply in front of= the track, creating a view block.  Above the gorge, the right of way t= hrough Waynesville (the post office is Corwin, but the ETT calls this Waynes= ville), and for the rest of the run into Xenia, the railroad is away from th= e riverbank and the right of way is flat enough that it doesn't matter which= way the land slopes.  At Xenia station itself, I prefer viewing the sc= ene from the south, with downtown up the hill behind it.

All in all, this interpretation of the prototype gives us eastbound trains g= oing to the right (a convention you'll find me using on pretty much any layo= ut I draw up), and let's us use the "deepest" scenery at Cincinnati as a bac= kdrop, with the "deep" scenery at Fort Ancient as a view block both in front= and in back.  Modelers seem reluctant to use scenery where you "look o= ver" a hill at the tracks, but I've seen this used to very good advantage in= the past.  Watching the top half of a train go by is one more experien= ce that reminds us of railfanning, and the front barrier can get lower where= switching/reaching is desirable.  That's why I think the riverbank wit= h some "shallow hills in front" above Miamiville would be effective.

You call me to task for not mentioning the Middletown Branch -- it was just=20= one of many scenic/operational features that I would have included if this h= ad been an MR "Railroad You Could Model" article instead of a quick posting=20= on the merit of considering the Cincinnati main line.  This branch's pl= acement going off to the east across the Little Miami River is obvious; with= the orientation I've described, the track need only run back to meet a thro= ugh truss bridge portal surrounded by trees set into the backdrop.  Nat= urally, it'd be nice if the track could be continued behind that backdrop in= to two or three staging tracks; Armco Steel at Middletown Ohio used to pump=20= out a lot of carloads for PRR from the end of that branch (first, Middletown= and Reed Yard, later just from New Reed Yard when the plant expansion cut o= ff the town part of the branch).

Trafficwise, the Middletown Branch is probably more important than the Zanes= ville Branch, which takes off east at Morrow.  The C&MV/Zanesville=20= probably needs only one staging track, unless you're really determined to ru= n a passenger train on this decaying streak of rust.  Fortunately, this= line didn't come off the Little Miami at ninety degrees -- it just came off= and ran up Todd's Fork.  Rather than run that track out into the aisle= , it could hug the front edge of the benchwork and proceed to the right unti= l it "disappears" under the rising front scenery east of Morrow.  Exten= ding it by enough to model industries would be really stretching things, unl= ess you're truly desperate for another small country grain elevator.

So far, I've talked about the advantages of modeling this line from the "eas= t".  Now let's look at doing it from the "west":

You may not be aware of Jim Kendig's N scale track plan modeling from Xenia=20= west to both Dayton and Cincinnati.  In his space, it works out for the= Panhandle main line to come from the east and divide at Xenia.  The li= ne into Dayton continues along a wall to the left, and is viewed from the ai= sle as if looking "north".  However, across the aisle is the Cincinnati= line, viewed as if looking "south".  Everything including the C&MV= /Zanesville Branch lays out nicely from Xenia down to Middletown Junction, b= ut that line has to be modeled reversed (otherwise the Middletown Branch wou= ld end up in the aisle). 

Once Jim's layout heads on down past Miamiville and has crossed the deck tru= sses to the west bank of the Little Miami River, the high ground (lots of it= ) is in front.  Jim sees this as enough of a problem that he is tempted= to model this "reversed" so as to have rising hills in the background (and=20= also the nice backdrop of factory facades behind Undercliff).  This may= be the best option to keep things switchable, but since this is N scale pro= bably should be "mocked up" and studied life size before any bridges are bur= ned. 

Incidentally, Tom, did you realize there are at least two models of Dayton U= nion Station now in the works?  Jim's got one on his pike, and Bob Fink= , Dayton rail historian and famed builder of the Dayton, Duluth, and Western= pike, is building the other in HO on his new home layout.  Finally, th= e Panhandle lines centered on Xenia are getting some attention...

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_97.39cd901c.2c140685_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 07:34:04 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] DT&I on PRR -- Cincinnati and DeCoursey In a message dated 6/5/03 8:04:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lnrr@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 01:11:00 -0000 > From: "kangaroose" > Subject: Re: PRR -- and L&N -- in Cincinnati > > Rick and Stuart > > According to Jerry Taylor's book on PC (a must have operations book, > and you can get it cheap from Indiana Press or the PC HS sight), this > is the story with the DTI loco at DeC. > > PRR and DTI had a run-through train DC-9(and continued thru' to the PC > era and probably the CR era) from South Charleston OH to Undercliff > Yard (PRR),where Cincy block set-out, picked-up additional L&N cars. > Although the DTI locos stayed as power the crew changed to a Transfer > job crew. Went to DeC. then tied up at Sharon, ready for the return to > DTI northbound as train DC-8 via the ex-NYC tracks to Springfield OH > during PC days. > > I hope this clarifies this neat and unique operation. > > Nick Molo > Nick, You're right... 1. This is a good answer from the guy who would know (and written in 1972, the right period). Don't forget that the DC-8 ran north out of Undercliff until some date after the 1968 merger -- eventually it were moved to Sharonville in one stage of Undercliff's downgrading. 2. Taylor also points out that the DT&I units were paid for by Penn Central on a horsepower-hour basis. 3. I've seen other, different answers derived from the two DT&I books available -- however, I'm not sure the descriptions are as carefully vetted by time period. 4. I also cannot believe the PRR fans who won't buy this book because it has Penn Central in the title. One of the best books existing on Lines West (yet). And its publisher (IU Press) is closing it and a wad of other rail books out at a sacrifice price. See their website... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 07:33:32 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Kadee filing --part1_11e.226e74ad.2c14790c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/7/03 10:27:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, RDG2124 writes: > Rick, > > A little work with a flat, fine file on the coupler lid and the Kadee > shank will allow the screw to be snugged up. I found the same condition when a > No. 58 coupler was installed then just for grins tried a No. 5 which yielded > the same results. > > > Evan Leisey > RCT&HS 346 Evan, Just as good if the plastic is filed really smooth. Same principle as filing the shank -- reduce the interference fit. OTOH, when a Kadee is loose instead of tight, it's possible to file the center boss post so a screw will tighten down the cover more. This takes the lamentably common droop out of Kadees. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_11e.226e74ad.2c14790c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/7/03 10:27:34 PM Eastern Daylight= Time, RDG2124 writes:


Rick,

   A little work with a flat, fine file on the coupler lid and the= Kadee shank will allow the screw to be snugged up.  I found the same c= ondition when a No. 58 coupler was installed then just for grins tried a No.= 5 which yielded the same results. 


Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346


Evan,

Just as good if the plastic is filed really smooth.  Same principle as=20= filing the shank -- reduce the interference fit.  OTOH, when a Kadee is= loose instead of tight, it's possible to file the center boss post so a scr= ew will tighten down the cover more.  This takes the lamentably common=20= droop out of Kadees.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_11e.226e74ad.2c14790c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 07:34:04 EDT Subject: [PRR] DT&I on PRR -- Cincinnati and DeCoursey --part1_17d.1c176f94.2c14792c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/5/03 8:04:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lnrr@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 01:11:00 -0000 > From: "kangaroose" > Subject: Re: PRR -- and L&N -- in Cincinnati > > Rick and Stuart > > According to Jerry Taylor's book on PC (a must have operations book, > and you can get it cheap from Indiana Press or the PC HS sight), this > is the story with the DTI loco at DeC. > > PRR and DTI had a run-through train DC-9(and continued thru' to the PC > era and probably the CR era) from South Charleston OH to Undercliff > Yard (PRR),where Cincy block set-out, picked-up additional L&N cars. > Although the DTI locos stayed as power the crew changed to a Transfer > job crew. Went to DeC. then tied up at Sharon, ready for the return to > DTI northbound as train DC-8 via the ex-NYC tracks to Springfield OH > during PC days. > > I hope this clarifies this neat and unique operation. > > Nick Molo > Nick, You're right... 1. This is a good answer from the guy who would know (and written in 1972, the right period). Don't forget that the DC-8 ran north out of Undercliff until some date after the 1968 merger -- eventually it were moved to Sharonville in one stage of Undercliff's downgrading. 2. Taylor also points out that the DT&I units were paid for by Penn Central on a horsepower-hour basis. 3. I've seen other, different answers derived from the two DT&I books available -- however, I'm not sure the descriptions are as carefully vetted by time period. 4. I also cannot believe the PRR fans who won't buy this book because it has Penn Central in the title. One of the best books existing on Lines West (yet). And its publisher (IU Press) is closing it and a wad of other rail books out at a sacrifice price. See their website... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_17d.1c176f94.2c14792c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/5/03 8:04:39 AM Eastern Daylight=20= Time, lnrr@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 3
   Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 01:11:00 -0000
   From: "kangaroose" <kangaroose@yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: PRR -- and L&N -- in Cincinnati

Rick and Stuart

According to Jerry Taylor's book on PC (a must have operations book,
and you can get it cheap from Indiana Press or the PC HS sight), this
is the story with the DTI loco at DeC.

PRR and DTI had a run-through train DC-9(and continued thru' to the PC
era and probably the CR era) from South Charleston OH to Undercliff
Yard (PRR),where Cincy block set-out, picked-up additional L&N cars.
Although the DTI locos stayed as power the crew changed to a Transfer
job crew. Went to DeC. then tied up at Sharon, ready for the return to
DTI northbound as train DC-8 via the ex-NYC tracks to Springfield OH
during PC days.

I hope this clarifies this neat and unique operation.

Nick Molo


Nick,
+000> You're right...

1.  This is a good answer from the guy who would know (and written in 1= 972, the right period).  Don't forget that the DC-8 ran north out of Un= dercliff until some date after the 1968 merger -- eventually it were moved t= o Sharonville in one stage of Undercliff's downgrading.
2.  Taylor also points out that the DT&I units were paid for by Pen= n Central on a horsepower-hour basis.
3.  I've seen other, different answers derived from the two DT&I bo= oks available -- however, I'm not sure the descriptions are as carefully vet= ted by time period.
4.  I also cannot believe the PRR fans who won't buy this book because=20= it has Penn Central in the title.  One of the best books existing on Li= nes West (yet).  And its publisher (IU Press) is closing it and a wad o= f other rail books out at a sacrifice price.  See their website...

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_17d.1c176f94.2c14792c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 09:57:25 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Kadee filing I had a problem with O scale metal Kadee couplers that swiveled freely until the mounting screws were tightened. It turned out that the centering springs were very slightly larger diameter than in previous production runs. I used a small grinding point in a Dremel tool to thin the inside of the cover plate over the spring area, which freed up the coupler swing enough for easier centering. Steve Bartlett RickTipton wrote: .... John Frantz writes: > This past weekend I purchased a Post-War Two Pack. I > changed the McHenry Couplers to Kadees. There is only a > slight problem. The plate holding the coupler in the box > needs to be a quarter-turn looser than absolutely tight. > This way the spring will still work. Just a little hint > for everybody. > > John > Give the shank of your Kadees an extra swipe with a file (Kadee instructions tell you to do that to remove burrs). Then the screw may fit properly... Rick Tipton Louisville KY ... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 09:56:45 -0400 From: Garry Spear Subject: Re: [PRR] DT&I on PRR -- Cincinnati and DeCoursey >> >>Rick and Stuart >> >>According to Jerry Taylor's book on PC (a must have operations book, >>and you can get it cheap from Indiana Press or the PC HS sight), this >>is the story with the DTI loco at DeC. >> >> SNIP >> > 4. I also cannot believe the PRR fans who won't buy this book because it has > Penn Central in the title. One of the best books existing on Lines West > (yet). And its publisher (IU Press) is closing it and a wad of other rail books > out at a sacrifice price. See their website... IS there a URL to purchase the book?? Garry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Conrail Diesels Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 10:52:18 -0400 Evan, Withers published two books. Conrail Motive Power Review 1986-1991 and Conrail, The Final Years 1992-1997. Both books give history and lineage of thier locomtives as well as pictures. For Example: Conrail GP30 2251 Previous Owner/Number PC(PRR) 2251 Builders Number 29618 Builder's Date 11/64 Retirement Date 7/21/93 Notes: 1 Note 1: Conrail 2251 built as PRR 2310, to PC 2251; built on EMD order number 7765 The book does this with every class of diesel they owned. It's a great book to have, and book 1 also covers the Business cars from the OCS fleet. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Louis Fols" Subject: [PRR] RE: PRR-Talk Digest - 06/05/03 Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 09:42:05 -0700 Anyone have copy of Walthers "History, Making & Modeling of Steel" by Freytag for sale? Thanks Lou Fols -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 10:10 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: PRR-Talk Digest - 06/05/03 PRR-Talk Digest - Thursday, June 5, 2003 No PRR Dayton - Cincinnati main line. Thoughts on a Cincinnati-Xenia lay by ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: No PRR Dayton - Cincinnati main line. Thoughts on a Cincinnati-Xenia layout From: Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 23:35:13 EDT --part1_a.31420646.2c101471_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en In a message dated 6/4/03 6:47:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time,=20 PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > PS I am trying to work out how to put part of Columbus, Xenia,=20 > Dayton, and part of Cincinnati circa 1948-49 into 15'x19' with a=20 > partial double deck and a peninsula. I'm taking a few liberties such=20 > as what if the direct Col-Cin tracks weren't there, and/or I'm=20 > doubletracking Xenia-Dayton. Also, when did the Cin-Day main go away=20 > and become the Lytle branch? >=20 Well, there are liberties, and then there are liberties -- if I understand=20 you correctly, I'd suggest looking at this again carefully. 1. Lytle Branch - this may look on a map as if it's a main line between=20 Dloorn and Cincinnati, but it is not. The Cincinnati Lebanon & Northern/Day= ton=20 Lebanon & Cincinnati/Dayton Railroad and Terminal Co (?) represent independe= nt=20 lines that were not really integrated with the rest of PRR Lines West. Thes= e=20 lines were later called the Lytle Branch and Hempstead -Clement Industrial=20 Track at the north end, and the Lebanon Branch (also known as the Court Stre= et=20 Running Track) at the Cincinnati end. They are remnants of narrow gauge Ohi= o=20 railroading that was NOT oriented toward the PRR before their standard-gaugi= ng=20 (1894) and rather late control by PRR Lines West (purchase 1896). Even aft= er=20 acquisition by the PRR, they were not really hooked up so a train could turn= =20 off a main line in Dayton or in Cincinnati and use them to travel between Da= yton=20 and Cincinnati. Why? Probably because, at its best, this over-the-hills "Highland Line" wit= h=20 its cheap construction would never be mistaken for a main line. True, it wa= s=20 once a thriving commuter line at each end. But its track was unsuitable for= =20 "mainline" freight or passenger trains, and its middle actually lay out of=20 service between Lebanon and Lytle by the 1930's, and pulled up in the 1950's= . =20 The value of these lines was in feeding suburban industrial traffic into=20 Pennsy's system. 2. West of Columbus, ignoring the Bradford/Logansport/Chicago line to the=20 northwest, the railroad is like a Y lying on its left side. The traffic com= es=20 out of Columbus via London and South Charleston, and at Xenia the line split= s. =20 The line Columbus to Xenia was mostly double track, which ended just beyond=20 Xenia on the way down to Cincinnati (there was more double track from Foster= =20 pretty much all the way to Cincinnati, in former commuter territory). The=20 majority of freight traffic (including auto parts and (1960's) auto racks) g= etting=20 as far west as Xenia was going "west" (geographically southwest) into=20 Cincinnati, joined by the Cincinnati Limiteds and maybe another pair of pass= enger=20 trains. 4. Xenia to Dayton carried mostly the passenger and mail train fleet headed= =20 via New Paris, Richmond, Indianapolis, and Terre Haute for St. Louis. There= =20 were 10 or more of these a day. Since it was not a major freight route, it= =20 was always single track, and short on passing sidings. With nasty grade=20 problems of its own, it was never really relocated much from its orginal ant= ebellum=20 engineering. 5. Incidentally, all the comments in #4 also apply to the "Dayton & Western"= =20 on the other side of Dayton -- single track to New Paris OH, it was single=20 track with a 400 foot climb in the miles west of Dayton. **************************************************************************** = ** ******** Please excuse me for sticking my oar in here, but it's home territory for me= =20 and several other modelers. If you have the choice, let yourself be led by=20 the prototype (the one that used to exist -- all of this is abandoned to bik= e=20 trails now). I considered doing Cincinnati east to Xenia or so, because for western Ohio=20 the scenic opportunities are choice. If I were drawing up a multideck track= =20 plan for that, I'd have modeled Pendleton and Undercliff at the bottom left=20= of=20 my lower level. Once the passenger line from Cincinnati Union Terminal join= s=20 up at Red Bank, the line would head to the right=3DCa grade through Clare an= d=20 Milford to Miamiville. On this part of the run, the track would be backdrop= ped=20 by some really serious hills, rising behind the right-of-way as the line=20 works its way up the west bank of the Little Miami River. At Miamiville, th= ere's=20 a spectacular steel deck bridge, and beyond that point you'd be modeling the= =20 double track on the EAST bank of the Little Miami (your backdrop can be=20 screened by the trees that would obscure its bank, so you don't actually hav= e to=20 model the river here). Once up to Foster, you lose the double track, and will be peering over=20 foreground scenery that rises above the track line in FRONT of the line. Th= is=20 scenery continues through King's Mills and Middletown Junction, relieved by=20= the=20 flatter country at Morrow, where you meet the Zanesville branch taking off t= o the=20 east (front, a trackplanning problem). Morrow had a yard two or three track= s=20 wide. Then comes twisty track that enters the narrowest part of the Little= =20 Miami gorge to pass below Fort Ancient. This is a good place to hide the=20 entry to a helix that would lift you up to the upper level, perhaps exiting=20= the=20 helix to pass through Waynesville, Oregonia, and Spring Valley (all farming=20 communities) before entering Xenia. I modeled the line from Dayton to Xenia last layout. If I'd done a faithful= =20 prototypical job, industry should have been limited, and the passing sidings= =20 would have been short and scarce. Even though it's my home ground, for you= r=20 size layout I would keep things simple and just let this single track appear= =20 from staging. Of course, if it works out in the plan, you might have it app= ear=20 along the backdrop and converge on the line from Cincinnati at the Xenia=20 station. And don't forget the Springfield Branch, which appears from the "n= orth"=20 at the Xenia station. =20 Of course, from Xenia east is the probable focus of my projected new pike,=20 but that plan conciously sacrifices the best scenery to secure the busyness=20= of=20 the Columbus terminal area. OTOH, for a layout focused on Cincinnati, we've= =20 already got a big terminal yard at Undercliff, and a local yard at Xenia. =20 Scenery east of Xenia is relatively flat farmland, which will less interesti= ng to=20 model than the Little Miami River valley we've already trackplanned. So I'd= =20 consider letting the track disappear as soon as it gets east of Xenia - you=20 could let it exit the modeled layout in a cut at the east end of Xenia yard,= =20 hidden by trees. Or it might disappear a little farther east under one of t= he=20 quaint farm road overpasses. Handling staging at the four "ends" of this railroad is a strategic problem: 1. The staging to the east of Xenia has to be the length of big mainline=20 freights 2. Most of Dayton's trains (passenger, mail, freight local) are shorter. =20 3. Similar to Dayton, the two or three sn Litff tracks for Cincinnati Union=20 Terminal need only hold passenger trains. =20 4. Since Undercliff Yard will break down road freights into transfer cuts,=20 the Cincinnati staging tracks to its "west" will be for various locals and=20 foreign road interchange jobs (especially L&N), and can be short, but quite=20= a few=20 will be needed. =20 If you don't want to model all the passenger equipment you'd need, think=20 about whether it's better to a. manually turn the passenger/mail runs between sessions b. be able to turn these first class trains on loops at the ends for their=20 returns, or=20 c. connect east of Xenia to return from Dayton (continous running) and be=20 satisfied to see the same eastbound passenger consist run again and again (t= his=20 would bore me to tears). Similarly, traffic through Xenia was not predominately open-top. But it's=20 true that you saw L&N hopper trains (loaded with coal) coming out of Cincinn= ati=20 and headed toward Columbus. And the L&N hopper cars going back "west" (sou= th=20 to the L&N) need to be empties. So you're either going to a. need one loaded and one empty train, each to be repositioned between=20 sessions, or=20 b. place and remove a lot of coal loads between sessions, or c. just ignore the problem =20 Whether this sounds right for you or not, I hope I've raised a few issues=20 that will entertain you as you develop your track plan and layout concept= =E2=80=A6 Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West=20 --part1_a.31420646.2c101471_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en In a message dated 6/4/03 6:47:03 AM Eastern Daylight=20= Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes:


PS I am trying to work out how=20= to put part of Columbus, Xenia,
Dayton, and part of Cincinnati circa 1948-49 into 15'x19' with a
partial double deck and a peninsula. I'm taking a few liberties such
as what if the direct Col-Cin tracks weren't there, and/or I'm
doubletracking Xenia-Dayton. Also, when did the Cin-Day main go away
and become the Lytle branch?


Well, there are liberties, and then there are liberties -- if I understand y= ou correctly, I'd suggest looking at this again carefully.

1.  Lytle Branch - this may look on a map as if it's a main line betwee= n Dayton and Cincinnati, but it is not.  The Cincinnati Lebanon & N= orthern/Dayton Lebanon & Cincinnati/Dayton Railroad and Terminal Co (?)=20= represent independent lines that were not really integrated with the rest of= PRR Lines West.  These lines were later called the Lytle Branch and He= mpstead -Clement Industrial Track at the north end, and the Lebanon Branch (= also known as the Court Street Running Track) at the Cincinnati end.  T= hey are remnants of narrow gauge Ohio railroading that was NOT oriented towa= rd the PRR before their standard-gauging (1894) and rather late control by P= RR Lines West (purchase 1896).   Even after acquisition by the PRR= , they were not really hooked up so a train could turn off a main line in Da= yton or in Cincinnati and use them to travel between Dayton and Cincinnati.<= BR>
Why?  Probably because, at its best, this over-the-hills "Highland Line= " with its cheap construction would never be mistaken for a main line. = True, it was once a thriving commuter line at each end.  But its track= was unsuitable for "mainline" freight or passenger trains, and its middle a= ctually lay out of service between Lebanon and Lytle by the 1930's, and pull= ed up in the 1950's.  The value of these lines was in feeding suburban=20= industrial traffic into Pennsy's system.

2.  West of Columbus, ignoring the Bradford/Logansport/Chicago line to=20= the northwest, the railroad is like a Y lying on its left side.  The tr= affic comes out of Columbus via London and South Charleston, and at Xenia th= e line splits.  The line Columbus to Xenia was mostly double track, whi= ch ended just beyond Xenia on the way down to Cincinnati (there was more dou= ble track from Foster pretty much all the way to Cincinnati, in former commu= ter territory).  The majority of freight traffic (including auto parts=20= and (1960's) auto racks) getting as far west as Xenia was going "west" (geog= raphically southwest) into Cincinnati, joined by the Cincinnati Limiteds and= maybe another pair of passenger trains.

4.  Xenia to Dayton carried mostly the passenger and mail train fleet h= eaded via New Paris, Richmond, Indianapolis, and Terre Haute for St. Louis.&= nbsp; There were 10 or more of these a day.   Since it was not a m= ajor freight route, it was always single track, and short on passing sidings= .  With nasty grade problems of its own, it was never really relocated=20= much from its orginal antebellum engineering.

5. Incidentally, all the comments in #4 also apply to the "Dayton & West= ern" on the other side of Dayton -- single track to New Paris OH, it was sin= gle track with a 400 foot climb in the miles west of Dayton.

**************************************************************************** = **********

Please excuse me for sticking my oar in here, but it's home territory for me= and several other modelers.  If you have the choice, let yourself be l= ed by the prototype (the one that used to exist -- all of this is abandoned=20= to bike trails now).

I considered doing Cincinnati east to Xenia or so, because for western Ohio=20= the scenic opportunities are choice.  If I were drawing up a multideck=20= track plan for that, I'd have modeled Pendleton and Undercliff at the bottom= left of my lower level.  Once the passenger line from Cincinnati Union= Terminal joins up at Red Bank, the line would head to the right up a grade=20= through Clare and Milford to Miamiville.  On this part of the run, the=20= track would be backdropped by some really serious hills, rising behind the r= ight-of-way as the line works its way up the west bank of the Little Miami R= iver.  At Miamiville, there's a spectacular steel deck bridge, and beyo= nd that point you'd be modeling the double track on the EAST bank of the Lit= tle Miami (your backdrop can be screened by the trees that would obscure its= bank, so you don't actually have to model the river here).

Once up to Foster, you lose the double track, and will be peering over foreg= round scenery that rises above the track line in FRONT of the line.  d us is scenery continues through King's Mills and Middletown Junction, relieved=20= by the flatter country at Morrow, where you meet the Zanesville branch takin= g off to the east (front, a trackplanning problem).  Morrow had a yard=20= two or three tracks wide.   Then comes twisty track that enters th= e narrowest part of the Little Miami gorge to pass below Fort Ancient. = This is a good place to hide the entry to a helix that would lift you up to= the upper level, perhaps exiting the helix to pass through Waynesville, Ore= gonia, and Spring Valley (all farming communities) before entering Xenia.
I modeled the line from Dayton to Xenia last layout.  If I'd done a fai= thful prototypical job, industry should have been limited, and the passing s= idings would have been short and scarce.   Even though it's my hom= e ground, for your size layout I would keep things simple and just let this=20= single track appear from staging.  Of course, if it works out in the pl= an, you might have it appear along the backdrop and converge on the line fro= m Cincinnati at the Xenia station.  And don't forget the Springfield Br= anch, which appears from the "north" at the Xenia station. 

Of course, from Xenia east is the probable focus of my projected new pike, b= ut that plan conciously sacrifices the best scenery to secure the busyness o= f the Columbus terminal area.  OTOH, for a layout focused on Cincinnati= , we've already got a big terminal yard at Undercliff, and a local yard at X= enia.  Scenery east of Xenia is relatively flat farmland, which will le= ss interesting to model than the Little Miami River valley we've already tra= ckplanned.  So I'd consider letting the track disappear as soon as it g= ets east of Xenia - you could let it exit the modeled layout in a cut at the= east end of Xenia yard, hidden by trees.  Or it might disappear a litt= le farther east under one of the quaint farm road overpasses.

Handling staging at the four "ends" of this railroad is a strategic problem:=
1. The staging to the east of Xenia has to be the length of big mainline fre= ights
2. Most of Dayton's trains (passenger, mail, freight local) are shorter.&nbs= p;
3. Similar to Dayton, the two or three sneakoff tracks for Cincinnati Union=20= Terminal need only hold passenger trains. 
4. Since Undercliff Yard will break down road freights into transfer cuts, t= he Cincinnati staging tracks to its "west" will be for various locals and fo= reign road interchange jobs (especially L&N), and can be short, but quit= e a few will be needed. 

If you don't want to model all the passenger equipment you'd need, think abo= ut whether it's better to
a. manually turn the passenger/mail runs between sessions
b. be able to turn these first class trains on loops at the ends for their r= eturns, or
c.  connect east of  Xenia to return from Dayton (continous runnin= g) and be satisfied to see the same eastbound passenger consist run again an= d again (this would bore me to tears).

Similarly, traffic through Xenia was not predominately open-top.  But i= t's true that you saw L&N hopper trains (loaded with coal) coming out of= Cincinnati and headed toward Columbus.   And the L&N hopper c= ars going back "west" (south to the L&N) need to be empties.  So yo= u're either going to
a. need one loaded and one empty train, each to be repositioned between sess= ions, or
b. place and remove a lot of coal loads between sessions, or
c. just ignore the problem        &n= bsp;             =             &nbs = p;     


Whether this sounds right for you or not, I hope I've raised a few issues th= at will entertain you as you develop your track plan and layout concept=E2= =80=A6


Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_a.31420646.2c101471_boundary-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- End of PRR-Talk Digest ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 22:17:11 GMT Subject: [PRR] PRR Semaphore Question From: Dominic Mazoch I've noticed in some pictures that some semaphores on the PRR are "shorter" than normal. These seem to be on poles where the "shortie" signal were the second on the pole. Dominic Mazoch ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 19:40:36 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Semaphore Question/Blade Length (?) Dominic Mazoch wrote: > I've noticed in some pictures that some semaphores on > the PRR are "shorter" than normal. Shorter in blade length or shorter: (on lower) masts? > These seem to be on poles where the "shortie" signal were > the second on the pole. This was a common practice on many roads, and also internationally to have 'subsidiary' arms be shorter. It was perceived as aiding in interpretation. I vaguely recall there were other (ahemmmm) aspects: (short arm could be 'pulled off' to manually, top allow a 'stop and proceed'????) ============================== If lower on mast, again, it was common on many RRs (tho not all) for signals for subsidiary tracks to be mounted 'lower' than those for adjacent, 'main' tracks, again, as an aid in sorting out the aspects... -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ...for he has read everything, and written nothing... A J Raffles ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 00:03:42 EDT Subject: [PRR] Conrail Early Diesels-Thanks! --part1_8f.2dd6e951.2c15611e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ask and you shall receive. And how. Many, many thanks for the responses and wealthy of information. Much more than I had expected and much more than Bill had hoped for. In my book, there was no Big Blue. Time jumped from the last day of the fallen flag roads to the first day of the CSX/NS take over. Blue is for CNJ, B& O, Wabash, MoPac, RF&P and even the N&W but NOT C@%&*!|. What would one expect from a third generation Rdg Co. employee?! Long live the memory of the fallen flags. Thanks again for all of the help, it was overwhelming. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 --part1_8f.2dd6e951.2c15611e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ask and you shall receive.  And how. 

Many, many thanks for the responses and wealthy of informatmber  Much m= ore than I had expected and much more than Bill had hoped for.

In my book,  there was no Big Blue.  Time jumped from the last day= of the fallen flag roads to the first day of the CSX/NS take over.  Bl= ue is for CNJ, B&O, Wabash, MoPac, RF&P and even the N&W but NOT= C@%&*!|.  What would one expect from a third generation Rdg Co. em= ployee?!  Long live the memory of the fallen flags.

Thanks again for all of the help,  it was overwhelming.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346 --part1_8f.2dd6e951.2c15611e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 08:42:16 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: BLI M1a >I guess they just put one of their M1b numbers on the M1a model. An M1b >started out as an M1a, anyway. Rob 6716 converted to M1b 9/49 As for the smokebox color..."graphite" is NOT silver!! The smokebox paint used by the PRR consisted of graphite and some aluminum. The varying amounts of aluminum appear to have dramatically altered the appearance of the locomotive. Lots of folks SEEM to base their idea of a PRR steamer on what they saw on the last K4s...which were notoriously silver....I plan to weather mine with "tarnished black" and rust... The tender deck and cab roof should be a little more similar than they are. The tender deck looks like a brand new deck while the roof looks to have been "in service" a while. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 11:30:04 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] Re: FW: VIRUS ALERT --=====================_3383699==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Greg ,, This is a hoax, not a real virus. See the following website, a handy reference to check with before sending out incorrect info. Tom At 11:02 AM 06/09/2003 -0400, Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr wrote: > >-----Original Message----- >From: Shiley, Cheryl [mailto:Cheryl.Shiley@parexel.com] >Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 10:04 AM >To: Mason, Joe; Greg Vlassapoulos (E-mail); Tim Vlassapoulos (E-mail) >Subject: FW: VIRUS ALERT > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Kelly, Tonya >Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 9:40 AM >To: Shiley, Cheryl; Wetling, Tom; Tom Zolna (E-mail); Cinda Snoots >(E-mail); Barb Boroi (E-mail) >Subject: FW: VIRUS ALERT > > > >If receive an apparently harmless email with a Power Point presentation >"Life is beautiful.pps" DO NOT OPEN THE FILE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, and >delete it immediately. If you open this file, a message will appear on >your screen saying: "It is too late now, your life is no longer >beautiful", subsequently you will LOSE EVERYTHING IN YOUR PC and the >person who sent it to you will gain access to your name, e-mail and >password. This is a new virus which started to circulate on >Saturday afternoon. WE NEED TO DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO STOP THIS VIRUS: >AOL has already confirmed the severity, and the antivirus Softs are not >capable of destroying it. The virus has been created by a hacker who calls >himself "life owner". > >PLEASE MAKE A COPY OF THIS EMAIL TO ALL YOUR FRIENDS > --=====================_3383699==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Greg ,,  This is a hoax, not a real virus.

See the following website, a handy reference to check with before sending out incorrect info.

Tom

At 11:02 AM 06/09/2003 -0400, Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr wrote:
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Shiley, Cheryl [mailto:Cheryl.Shiley@parexel.com]
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 10:04 AM
To: Mason, Joe; Greg Vlassapoulos (E-mail); Tim Vlassapoulos (E-mail)
Subject: FW: VIRUS ALERT

 
-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly, Tonya
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 9:40 AM
To: Shiley, Cheryl; Wetling, Tom; Tom Zolna (E-mail); Cinda Snoots (E-mail); Barb Boroi (E-mail)
Subject: FW: VIRUS ALERT

 
 
If receive an apparently harmless email with a Power Point presentation "Life is beautiful.pps" DO NOT OPEN THE FILE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, and delete it immediately. If you open this file, a message will appear on your screen saying: "It is too late now, your life is no longer beautiful", subsequently you will LOSE EVERYTHING IN YOUR PC and the person who sent it to you will gain access to your name, e-mail and password. This is a new virus which started to circulate on Saturday  afternoon. WE NEED TO DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO STOP THIS VIRUS: AOL has already confirmed the severity, and the antivirus Softs are not capable of destroying it. The virus has been created by a hacker who calls himself "life owner".
 
PLEASE MAKE A COPY OF THIS EMAIL TO ALL YOUR FRIENDS
 
--=====================_3383699==_.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 11:31:44 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] Re: FW: VIRUS ALERT --=====================_3483187==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Greg , This is a hoax, not a real virus. (resending , this time with the link included) See the following website, a handy reference to check with before sending out incorrect info. http://www.snopes.com/computer/virus/life.htm Tom At 11:02 AM 06/09/2003 -0400, Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr wrote: > >-----Original Message----- >From: Shiley, Cheryl [mailto:Cheryl.Shiley@parexel.com] >Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 10:04 AM >To: Mason, Joe; Greg Vlassapoulos (E-mail); Tim Vlassapoulos (E-mail) >Subject: FW: VIRUS ALERT > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Kelly, Tonya >Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 9:40 AM >To: Shiley, Cheryl; Wetling, Tom; Tom Zolna (E-mail); Cinda Snoots >(E-mail); Barb Boroi (E-mail) >Subject: FW: VIRUS ALERT > > > >If receive an apparently harmless email with a Power Point presentation >"Life is beautiful.pps" DO NOT OPEN THE FILE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, and >delete it immediately. If you open this file, a message will appear on >your screen saying: "It is too late now, your life is no longer >beautiful", subsequently you will LOSE EVERYTHING IN YOUR PC and the >person who sent it to you will gain access to your name, e-mail and >password. This is a new virus which started to circulate on >Saturday afternoon. WE NEED TO DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO STOP THIS VIRUS: >AOL has already confirmed the severity, and the antivirus Softs are not >capable of destroying it. The virus has been created by a hacker who calls >himself "life owner". > >PLEASE MAKE A COPY OF THIS EMAIL TO ALL YOUR FRIENDS > --=====================_3483187==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Greg , This is a hoax, not a real virus.   (resending , this time with the link included)

See the following website, a handy reference to check with before sending out incorrect info.

http://www.snopes.com/computer/virus/life.htm

Tom

At 11:02 AM 06/09/2003 -0400, Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr wrote:
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Shiley, Cheryl [mailto:Cheryl.Shiley@parexel.com]
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 10:04 AM
To: Mason, Joe; Greg Vlassapoulos (E-mail); Tim Vlassapoulos (E-mail)
Subject: FW: VIRUS ALERT

 
-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly, Tonya
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 9:40 AM
To: Shiley, Cheryl; Wetling, Tom; Tom Zolna (E-mail); Cinda Snoots (E-mail); Barb Boroi (E-mail)
Subject: FW: VIRUS ALERT

 
 
If receive an apparently harmless email with a Power Point presentation "Life is beautiful.pps" DO NOT OPEN THE FILE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, and delete it immediately. If you open this file, a message will appear on your screen saying: "It is too late now, your life is no longer beautiful", subsequently you will LOSE EVERYTHING IN YOUR PC and the person who sent it to you will gain access to your name, e-mail and password. This is a new virus which started to circulate on Saturday  afternoon. WE NEED TO DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO STOP THIS VIRUS: AOL has already confirmed the severity, and the antivirus Softs are not capable of destroying it. The virus has been created by a hacker who calls himself "life owner".
 
PLEASE MAKE A COPY OF THIS EMAIL TO ALL YOUR FRIENDS
 
--=====================_3483187==_.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 11:41:10 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: FW: VIRUS ALERT From: Listmaster New rule: Post a virus alert (or correction) to PRR-talk (or any DSOP.COM list) and be banned from the list for life. No warnings. I don't know how often I need to repeat myself on this. ---------------------------------------- Listmaster listmaster@dsop.com Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] passenger car maintenance Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 18:56:43 +0000 The discussion we have had over the past few weeks leaves me with more questions than answers. Assuming best case scenarios can anyone asnwer the following questions?: 1. How often were wheels turned or trucks replaced on cars (miles)? 2. What other routine maintenance items needed to be done? Bill Volkmer has already said brakes were no big deal. 3. How often did upholstery require work? 4. What routine maintenance was required on mechanical systems and how often? 5. What was the availablity of an average coach, sleeping car, diner? There are whole operating possibilities in passenger cars that have never been done in my memory (getting shorter every day!). Where were the car shops on the PRR. I assume Altoona and Sunnyside. Anywhere else? What trains carried the deadheaded cars to the shops for work? Would the Broadway which I doubt? Were spare cars kept throughout the system or just key locations and what were they. I can see a layout that models Harrisburg for example throwing in a bad order on a a car every now and then that needs to be switched out of a train and a replacement switched in to vary just the change of motive power. Never have seen a picture of a passenger car shop on a model railroad. That alone would justify running equipment not normally seen and in combinations not normally seen. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 16:00:06 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54s was "most wanted Locomotives" Depends on your definition of "credible". The old Penn Line castings are ancient cheap technology and look it. They are not good models of anything. >From a prototype standpoint they lack the trn" Andy: > > "I don't know of any good way to kitbash them from any coaches on the > market" > > You can make a credible MP54 from the Life Like passenger car which is > probably a former a Penn L:ine die. I made about a dozen cars years ago > from the Penn Line, and from 3 feet away they looked pretty good. My cars > were unpowered until the SPUD units came out in the 80's. > > Lew > > How long a minute is depends on what side of the bathroom door you're on. > > Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Waste Management and Energy > Systems. Advocating water for life through sustainable agriculture, > sustainable toilets, sustainable gray water systems and sustainable green > construction. > Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O., B.O.C.A.I. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andrew S. Miller" > To: "Alex Charyna" > Cc: "PRR-Talk Posting" > Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 5:04 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54s was "most wanted Locomotives" > > > Several importers have made them in Brass over the years. Most now sell > for > > over $300 per car. I don't know of any good way to kitbash them from any > > coaches on the market. The prototype was rebuilt for cars originally > built to > > electrified. So the car bodies remained substantially unchanged. I have > > scratch built two myself and otherwise run a mixed bag of ALCO brass and > > Walthers cars, but would love to have plastic cars to increase my fleet. > The > > unpowered versions without pans or headlights could be sold as P54s and > look > > great for the Pittsburgh suburban modelers, LIRR and B&M. They also > would > > represent a prototype shorty for all those people stuck with small > layouts. > > > > Lastly, the manufacture can letter them for PRR, PC, ConRail, NJT, SEPTA, > and > > several liveries of LIRR. The unpowered cars are correct for PRR, LIRR, > and > > B&M! > > > > Is anyone listening?? > > > > Regards, > > > > Andy Miller > > asmiller@mitre.org > > > > PS I had the great good fortune several years ago when on a business > trip to > > Albuquerque NM to wander into a hobby shop that had just bought a brass > > collection from an estate. Needless to say in Albuquerque all the ATSF > steam > > went ASAP at top dollar, but the funny short passenger cars with "stuff" > on the > > roof languished on the shelf collecting New Mexico dust. Thus did I pick > up a > > 3 car Alco MP54 set for $125 !! > > ================================================== > > Alex Charyna wrote: > > > > > > I know its not an Loco, but they are powered; how about plastic, MP54s > > > with > > > > underfloor power trucks and full interiors :-)))) > > > > > > YES YES YES YES YES YES!!!! > > > I'd buy at least a dozen. > > > > > > I'd take them with "abovefloor" power. > > > > > > this guy's out of kits.. > > > http://www.gwchase.freehosting.net/index.html > > > > > > Alco made a set in brass... > > > > > > Can't these be bashed from a coach? > > > Weren't they in real life? > > > > > > Young Pennsy fan, > > > -alex ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 16:10:21 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54s was "most wanted Locomotives" As I think about it again, it was Pittman (the motor people) who offered the "Bride and Groom" using the PennLine shells and ther own power unit. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "Andrew S. Miller" wrote: > Depends on your definition of "credible". The old Penn Line castings are > ancient cheap technology and look it. They are not good models of anything. > From a prototype standpoint they lack the tripled windows of the P54 or the > correct trucks. I am not sure of the length. > > Penn Line themselves once offered them as a coach combine set of MU cars with > the combine powered. They called it the "Bride and Groom". > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR containers Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 14:28:59 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32ECE.23C639C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-88here" All; The PRR container service was fascinating, and Rich Burg's Keystone article is required reading. I got very motivated by that article and am attempting to model as much of it as makes sense in my era and location. Container service did change a lot over time (particularly in its later years), as merchandise containers (like the one you were asking about) fell out of favor and bulk containers continued as a viable business. The ones you were probably alluding to are those DD1a (double doors, both sides) that were the later (still pre-war) merchandise containers carried on the FMs & F31s. They were used for shipping LCL and such to distinct customers in "safe" (lockable) containers at centralized off-loading locations. The idea was the precursor to the TOFC industry, just didn't pull it off at the time. The Walthers "set" attempts to simulate a loading/unloading facility with a crane for load/unload.. those very same types of containers. That these are PRR-specific is just a case of them picking one(albeit a popular one)... If you want to model an LCL-type facility with the crane and truck, it is kinda cool looking. But, by the mid-50's, this type of thing was on the way out big time. After that service ended in the early-mid-50's, you'd see the containers at many terminals being used as tool sheds, a GREAT use for those Walthers ones if you are not electing to duplicate them for a flat car in-LCL-service kind of thing. No, the PRR did not use the DD1a in gons, although they looked into it. The smaller containers they used side-by-side in gons (that Walthers and Westerfield both make) were the HB (hopper bottom?) series; HB-1a and HB-4 Youngstown (with the corrugations). Both were used for bulk cement, lime, etc. for customers that wanted regulated amounts for placement in discrete locations. They were loaded 12 to a G22b (100t) and 8 to a G22 (70t). There were hundreds of G22b's in this service through the 50's, but thinned out in the 60's. These did not require an LCL-type facility, but did require a crane with chain and hooks for lifting on both ends of the run. The coke containers Walthers makes are a slightly shorter version of what the PRR had as its DB-6. It had no top hatches, but had gates on the bottom. The tallest ones made were the ones PRR used, but only had them installed in 9 G27a's. I did this car using the Sunshine kit, cobbled MD decals, and a load of Walthers containers. It hurt me to pay that much for a load. Really hurt. The PRR did, however, also run a half dozen G36e's (note ALL these cars had steel floors!) with the containers of the Walthers kit height, for outside customers. The only photo I've seen is one in one of the Morning Sun PRR car books. It has containers for Pittsburgh Coke & Chemical, which was a shipper from the Pgh area, plus some others. On an aside, I don't think that Walthers understands how much potential they had in those kits, and how thoroughly they blew it in execution. The containers were forbiddingly expensive ($11 for 3 containers???), although quite nice in model/painting/lettering, but the "container" gons were second-rate models, they lettered them for roads that didn't have them, and they didn't get all the details quite right (PRR did not use its G25's in container service). The merchandise container set is a case in point. You have to admit, if they'd carried off all the details, it'd have been a really nice thing for a layout. I think that the folks for whom this would've had interest have a higher level of sophistication than Walthers planned for. If the kit included a state-of-the-art crane, truck, and chains/hooks, some detail, figures, and loading accessories, and a nice facility to draw attention to (like a laser-cut weathered "terminal" building) it might have fit into those niches occupied by the high-end building kits. Just a thought... Elden -----Original Message----- From: Bobspf@aol.com [mailto:Bobspf@aol.com] Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 10:11 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR containers In a message dated 6/6/03 11:03:27 PM Central Daylight Time, b.hom@worldnet.att.net writes: << Unfortunately, if you want to use one of their USRA steel gons as a container car, you'll need 12 LCL Bulk containers or 10 Coke Containers - not cheap @ $10.98 per 3-pack. >> Also a rather rare PRR gon to carry any containers , I believe, though I'll bow to anyone who can find multiple photos of their doing so. In any case I think the original poster was referring not to the bulk containers but to the merchandise containers which only came with the container terminal. I would love to get some merchandise containers for my G22s (the more common carrier on the Pennsy of most containers, I believe, though never say never for the others). I have the Westerfield resin kit which includes a set of 9 together, as I recall, plus one stand-alone. I think that is still available, though I seem to have misplaced my hard-copy Westerfield list. Their website should indicate its availability. Containers carried by the G22 varied in number according to which trucks the car had. I'm not near my sources now, so can't remember the numbers. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32ECE.23C639C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] PRR containers

All;
        The PRR = container service was fascinating, and Rich Burg's Keystone article is = required reading.  I got very motivated by that article and am = attempting to model as much of it as makes sense in my era and = location. 

        Container = service did change a lot over time (particularly in its later years), = as merchandise containers (like the one you were asking about) fell out = of favor and bulk containers continued as a viable business.

        The ones = you were probably alluding to are those DD1a (double doors, both sides) = that were the later (still pre-war) merchandise containers carried on = the FMs & F31s.  They were used for shipping LCL and such to = distinct customers in "safe" (lockable) containers at = centralized off-loading locations.  The idea was the precursor to = the TOFC industry, just didn't pull it off at the time.  The = Walthers "set" attempts to simulate a loading/unloading = facility with a crane for load/unload.. those very same types of = containers.  That these are PRR-specific is just a case of them = picking one(albeit a popular one)...  If you want to model an = LCL-type facility with the crane and truck, it is kinda cool = looking.  But, by the mid-50's, this type of thing was on the way = out big time.

   After that service ended in the = early-mid-50's, you'd see the containers at many terminals being used = as tool sheds, a GREAT use for those Walthers ones if you are not = electing to duplicate them for a flat car in-LCL-service kind of = thing.

        No, the = PRR did not use the DD1a in gons, although they looked into it.
        The = smaller containers they used side-by-side in gons (that Walthers and = Westerfield both make) were the HB (hopper bottom?) series; HB-1a and = HB-4 Youngstown (with the corrugations).  Both were used for bulk = cement, lime, etc. for customers that wanted regulated amounts for = placement in discrete locations.  They were loaded 12 to a G22b = (100t) and 8 to a G22 (70t).  There were hundreds of G22b's in = this service through the 50's, but thinned out in the 60's.  These = did not require an LCL-type facility, but did require a crane with = chain and hooks for lifting on both ends of the run.

        The coke = containers Walthers makes are a slightly shorter version of what the = PRR had as its DB-6.  It had no top hatches, but had gates on the = bottom.  The tallest ones made were the ones PRR used, but only = had them installed in 9 G27a's.  I did this car using the Sunshine = kit, cobbled MD decals, and a load of Walthers containers.  It = hurt me to pay that much for a load.  Really hurt.

        The PRR = did, however, also run a half dozen G36e's (note ALL these cars had = steel floors!) with the containers of the Walthers kit height, for = outside customers.  The only photo I've seen is one in one of the = Morning Sun PRR car books.  It has containers for Pittsburgh Coke = & Chemical, which was a shipper from the Pgh area, plus some = others. 

        On an = aside, I don't think that Walthers understands how much potential they = had in those kits, and how thoroughly they blew it in execution.  = The containers were forbiddingly expensive ($11 for 3 containers???), = although quite nice in model/painting/lettering, but the = "container" gons were second-rate models, they lettered them = for roads that didn't have them, and they didn't get all the details = quite right (PRR did not use its G25's in container service).  The = merchandise container set is a case in point.  You have to admit, = if they'd carried off all the details, it'd have been a really nice = thing for a layout.

        I think = that the folks for whom this would've had interest have a higher level = of sophistication than Walthers planned for.  If the kit included = a state-of-the-art crane, truck, and chains/hooks, some detail, = figures, and loading accessories, and a nice facility to draw attention = to (like a laser-cut weathered "terminal" building) it might = have fit into those niches occupied by the high-end building = kits.  Just a thought...

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Bobspf@aol.com [mailto:Bobspf@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 10:11 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR containers


In a message dated 6/6/03 11:03:27 PM Central = Daylight Time,
b.hom@worldnet.att.net writes:

<< Unfortunately, if you want to use one of = their USRA steel gons as a
 container car, you'll need 12 LCL Bulk = containers or 10 Coke Containers -
 not cheap @ $10.98 per 3-pack. >>

Also a rather rare PRR gon to carry any  = containers , I believe,  though I'll
bow to anyone who can find multiple photos of their = doing so.  In  any case I
think the original poster was referring not to the = bulk containers but to the
merchandise containers which only came with the = container terminal.  I would
love to get some merchandise containers for my G22s = (the more common carrier
on the Pennsy of most containers, I believe, though = never say never for the
others).  I have the Westerfield resin kit = which includes a set of 9 together, as
I recall, plus one stand-alone.  I think that = is still available, though I
seem to have misplaced my hard-copy Westerfield = list. Their website should 
indicate its availability.

Containers carried by the G22 varied in number = according to which trucks the
car had.  I'm not near my sources now, so can't = remember the numbers.

Bob Zoeller

---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C32ECE.23C639C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Michael Hauk" Subject: [PRR] Lewistown coaling tower Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 22:56:06 -0400 Greetings! I recently noticed this photo on the PRRT&HS website: http://www.prrths.com/PRR_Weaver_PRRM1_6962.htm and I was wondering if anyone has any more information on the small coaling and sand tower in the picture. I.e. what "brand" of coaling tower is it (Fairbanks-Morse, Snow)?, do any better photos of it exist anywhere in publication, do any drawings of this or similar towers exist, and does any outfit make a model of it in HO? (yeah, right!). I could use such a small coaling tower on my model railroad. Thanks!! Doc H. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Lewistown coaling tower Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 07:28:30 -0400 Doc, I know the sand tower still exists because there is a PC "S" Service covered hopper. I think it's an H34 or something like that. I don't think the coaling tipple is there though. I can't say much for modeling one right now. John ----------------------------------------------------------- Greetings! I recently noticed this photo on the PRRT&HS website: http://www.prrths.com/PRR_Weaver_PRRM1_6962.htm and I was wondering if anyone has any more information on the small coaling and sand tower in the picture. I.e. what "brand" of coaling tower is it (Fairbanks-Morse, Snow)?, do any better photos of it exist anywhere in publication, do any drawings of this or similar towers exist, and does any outfit make a model of it in HO? (yeah, right!). I could use such a small coaling tower on my model railroad. Thanks!! Doc H. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:17:40 -0400 From: Steven Hanlon Subject: [PRR] NEC ruins at milepost 117.4 is the remains of a signal bridge and a concrete relay house. on the house above the door was a red keystone. it appears that someone has used the building for target practice and only portions of the keystone remain. i found what i believe to be 1930's era insulators intact. they were apparently replaced in the late 70's and left along the ROW. there was a pile of broken ones and then there were 3 that were intact. any way to ascertain if this are original? at some point in recent times (PC or early Conrail days) the NEC ROW was moved to ease a tight curve at mile post 117. the original alignment has track 1 and the new alignment tracks 2 and 3. track 1 is used only by commuter trains. does anyone have any info on this realignment? finally, i'm looking for pictures of the Patuxent/Woodwardville area. there are some interesting lineside structures that i'd love to see what they were used for. -steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:41:05 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Lewistown coaling tower There is a photo of the complete coaling tower on page 127 of the PRRT&HS Lewistown Book, which is also right next to the photo.referenced on the website. The 1926 "Railway Engineering and Maintenance Cyclopedia" shows similar all-steel coaling stations made by both the T.W. Snow Construction Co. and the Ogle Construction Co. The design of the Lewistown superstructure leads me to believe it is probably a T.W. Snow structure. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] [PRR]Engine Keystone Maintenence Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:06:45 -0400 List guys, I was wondering if somewhere in the wonderful world of archives there would be a list that details when maintenence was done on individual engine keystones or numberplates. For example, I know a person that owns an engine keystone that you can see the bottom left corner had broken off and was re-welded back in place. Could the date of this re-welding be recorded anywhere? Just asking for any chances of something being out there. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] [PRR]Engine Keystone Maintenence Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 20:30:33 +0000 This would be a total guess on my part since I have no definitive insight but I would suspect that it was welded very close to the end of steam if not later. It would not convey a very good public image to have a cracked keystone on a passenger engine and would probably have been recast in Altoona for instalation uless you knew the engine had limited life and not to do any significant maintenance. It may even have been broken after removal and someone salvaged their investment that way. Treat these comments as total speculation until proven differently. > List guys, > > I was wondering if somewhere in the wonderful world of > archives there would be a list that details when > maintenence was done on individual engine keystones or > numberplates. > > For example, I know a person that owns an engine keystone > that you can see the bottom left corner had broken off and > was re-welded back in place. Could the date of this > re-welding be recorded anywhere? Just asking for any > chances of something being out there. > > > John > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] passenger car maintenance Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:55:09 -0400 Ndbprr wrote: The discussion we have had over the past few weeks leaves me with more questions than answers. Assuming best case scenarios can anyone asnwer the following questions?: 1. How often were wheels turned or trucks replaced on cars (miles)? WDV answer 1. Whenever they had the money! Seriously. When the trucks were worn so badly that they wondered if they were going to stay on the track, they (Philadelphia home office) would appropriate a small amount of money for truck overhauls. Usually the last to get attention were the P70g, gs, and gsrs. The hot P70s were all in commuter service and they just about NEVER received a programmed truck overhaul. I don't recall EVER seeing a record of coach mileage. Don't believe they ever attempted to keep those records. Only locomotives. And that was mostly for oil change records and wear life on piston rings etc. And by the way, during each overhaul program, they seldom, IF EVER, completed the program without running out of money prematurely and cancelling the remaining coaches. "We'll get the rest next time" was the motto. Ndbprr wrote: 2. What other routine maintenance items needed to be done? Bill Volkmer has already said brakes were no big deal. Bill Volkmer answers: 2. Au contraire. I did not say they were "no big deal". The Feds kept watch on the stencilled air brake dates and the brake components were religiously removed, overhauled in the air brake shop and new gasketry applied. I said each coach had an assigned maintenance base for air brake work, but if a coach was shopped at a remote site and was overdue for air brake work, it was mandatory that it receive that attention before release from the shop. The required rebuild dates were 2 years on D-22 brakes (P-85, P70fbr, RPO cars etc. i.e. cars with truck mounted cylinders) and 4 years on UC valves (heavyweight Pullmans, P70s other than fbr, baggage cars etc.) Ndbprr wrote: 3. How often did upholstery require work? Bill Volkmer writes: 3. Again, it was whenever there was money to do the work. I remember a program in Altoona (circa 1959) on the Scheme 6s where every inch of upholstery was replaced along with the floor tiles and two years later, the same coaches looked like they had been through a WAR! Ndbprr wrote: 4. What routine maintenance was required on mechanical systems and how often? Bill Volkmer writes: 4. Each coach received an annual air conditioning check at the beginning of the summer season, where freon leaks were searched for and found and all thermostat controls were checked and repaired. Similarly in the fall, the heating system was checked out. This was done at the coach's assigned maintenance point. Ndbprr wrote: 5. What was the availablity of an toiage coach, sleeping car, diner? Bill Volkmer writes: 5. The coaches were kept coupled into their assigned consists 24/7 and only shopped out when wheel work was required. Air brake and hvac work was performed on the train without uncoupling. Typically the trains laid over for about 12 hours in the home terminals. Sunnyside was a little less as the trains usually came in during the early morning hours and were dispatched west the same evening. Does that help you? Bill V. There are whole operating possibilities in passenger cars that have never been done in my memory (getting shorter every day!). Where were the car shops on the PRR. I assume Altoona and Sunnyside. Anywhere else? What trains carried the deadheaded cars to the shops for work? Would the Broadway which I doubt? Were spare cars kept throughout the system or just key locations and what were they. I can see a layout that models Harrisburg for example throwing in a bad order on a a car every now and then that needs to be switched out of a train and a replacement switched in to vary just the change of motive power. Never have seen a picture of a passenger car shop on a model railroad. That alone would justify running equipment not normally seen and in combinations not normally seen. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Terry Thompson - MR editor comments on the Trains.com web Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 20:43:06 +0000 This appeared today on the Trains.com webpage. Interestngly he includes several PRR engines in the list. Maybe he has more sway with the manufacturers then us. We continue to hear very well-sourced rumors that some new, high-quality models of some very big and very famous locomotives will be announced soon. This could be an interesting summer… - Terry Many of you may have read the list of my “top 10” hoped-for locomotives that appeared in the June issue. Here’s my second 10: an SP early Cab-Forward, an Erie or Virginian Triplex, a C&O/PRR 2-10-4, a new Train Master in HO, an early Challenger, a Baldwin Centipede, a Pennsy I1 Decapod, an EMC SC/SW, and a few GE U-boats, including an HO U30C and a U28CG. If you haven’t cast your “most wanted locomotive” ballot yet(the ballot is in your June issue), make sure to do so. Time’s running out! - Terry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Lewistown coaling tower Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 18:36:32 -0400 On page 132 of the PRRT&HS Lewistown Book a full side view of the combined coaling/sanding tower in 1969is shown. On the next page an almost similar view in 1974 is shown. You can easy see that after diesel power took over full force that the coaling part of the tower was removed. As I previously stated, the sdanding tower, as shown in both photgraphs, remains standing today. John PS- As a side note, like many Ex-PRR interchanges/yards there are many remnents of the PRR at Lewistown including a DD-1 container, an R50b less underbody and i think two X 29 class boxcars. The PRR is gone but not forgotten in both spirit and physical form. The "S" service covered hopper i had also refered to, though painted in a fading pea soup green, is an H30A. ----------------------------------------------------------- Al wrote: There is a photo of the complete coaling tower on page 127 of the PRRT&HS Lewistown Book, which is also right next to the photo.referenced on the website. The 1926 "Railway Engineering and Maintenance Cyclopedia" shows similar all-steel coaling stations made by both the T.W. Snow Construction Co. and the Ogle Construction Co. The design of the Lewistown superstructure leads me to believe it is probably a T.W. Snow structure. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 07:32:36 EDT Subject: [PRR] Yard lead length and yard design --part1_178.1beab108.2c186d54_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/20/03 1:43:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] The evils of cherry-picking/length of yard lead > From: > Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:05:56 +0000 > > Isn't that going to be more a function of the size of the yard than anything > > else? I would expect that an Enola or Conway would handle far different > lengths of cuts than a Margie, Estes or Frankford Junction. Just a thought. > > Norm Bell > We can be sure that a Conway or Enola handled larger cuts -- in fact, they may well have humped whole train lengths (just look at the length of the receiving yards). However, since these are hump yards, this action is also qualitatively different -- in these facilities, humping was maximized, and flat switching was minimized. I suspect that, once upon a time, many yards were "terminal yards" -- in an era of shorter trains and a huge number of cars loaded, I suspect that the fading glories we found all over the PRR in the 50's-60's were the remnants of once-vigorous and important originators of trains. However, once the "drag era" arrived (think WW1 or a little earlier), traffic had to be concentrated into fewer yards to marshal those longer trains. We can see the USRA-era yards all over the system (Enola, Scully, probably Columbus Yard A and Yard B, Bradford, Hawthorne, Logansport A, probably many others) growing as other yards die (Dennison for one). Some of these were hump yards, but without automation they operated as rider humps. Later, we see additional concentrating done, and refitting of selected yards as automated humps-- the famed example is expanding and modernizing Conway (on the Fort Wayne) to allow downgrading of Scully (on the Panhandle) and Pitcairn (on the Pittsburgh Division). I assume Conway also allowed some downgrading of other PFtW&C line yards (probably Fort Wayne, Mansfield, maybe Orrville, Canton, and Wooster). However, after the 40's we also saw some fadeout in Altoona and probably elsewhere on the Pittsburgh Division. This is an interesting thread and probably deserves more research than I've been able to give it. However, to return (after some time absent) to the thread of yard lead length, I'll point out that, on the Pennsy, yards didn't just happen. At any given time, the Pennsy's in-house civil engineering talents were busy rebuilding or modifying several yards, and were in design on others. To make it short and sweet, whatever era it might be that a yard was being designed/redesigned, the flat switching done there was deliberately designed with the lead length, bowl length, and number of tracks that would do the job that the designer had in mind. That said, it may not be immediately obvious to us, but PRR yards were laid out following systematic practices. Even the smaller, downgraded yards, when rebuilt, However, Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_178.1beab108.2c186d54_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 5/20/03 1:43:31 PM Eastern Daylight= Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Re: [PRR] The evils of= cherry-picking/length of yard lead
From: <ndbprr@att.net>
Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:05:56 +0000

Isn't that going to be more a function of the size of the yard than anything=
else?  I would expect that an Enola or Conway would handle far differen= t
lengths of cuts than a Margie, Estes or Frankford Junction.  Just a tho= ught. 
Norm Bell


We can be sure that a Conway or Enola handled larger cuts -- in fact, they m= ay well have humped whole train lengths (just look at the length of the rece= iving yards).  However, since these are hump yards, this action is also= qualitatively different -- in these facilities, humping was maximized, and=20= flat switching was minimized.

I suspect that, once upon a time, many yards were "terminal yards" -- in an=20= era of shorter trains and a huge number of cars loaded, I suspect that the f= ading glories we found all over the PRR in the 50's-60's were the remnants o= f once-vigorous and important originators of trains.  However, once the= "drag era" arrived (think WW1 or a little earlier), traffic had to be conce= ntrated into fewer yards to marshal those longer trains.  We can see th= e USRA-era yards all over the system (Enola, Scully, probably Columbus Yard=20= A and Yard B, Bradford, Hawthorne, Logansport A, probably many others) growi= ng as other yards die (Dennison for one).  Some of these were hump yard= s, but without automation they operated as rider humps.

Later, we see additional concentrating done, and refitting of selected yards= as automated humps-- the famed example is expanding and modernizing Conway=20= (on the Fort Wayne) to allow downgrading of Scully (on the Panhandle) and Pi= tcairn (on the Pittsburgh Division).  I assume Conway also allowed some= downgrading of other PFtW&C line yards (probably Fort Wayne, Mansfield,= maybe Orrville, Canton, and Wooster).  However, after the 40's we also= saw some fadeout in Altoona and probably elsewhere on the Pittsburgh Divisi= on.

This is an interesting thread and probably deserves more research than I've=20= been able to give it.  However, to return (after some time absent) to t= he thread of yard lead length, I'll point out that, on the Pennsy, yards did= n't just happen.  At any given time, the Pennsy's in-house civil engine= ering talents were busy rebuilding or modifying several yards, and were in d= esign on others.  To make it short and sweet, whatever era it might be=20= that a yard was being designed/redesigned, the flat switching done there was= deliberately designed with the lead length, bowl length, and number of trac= ks that would do the job that the designer had in mind.

That said, it may not be immediately obvious to us, but PRR yards were laid=20= out following systematic practices.  Even the smaller, downgraded yards= , when rebuilt,

However,
Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_178.1beab108.2c186d54_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] The Golden Arrow? Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:33:49 -0400 Gents, Does anybody know if the PRR had a passenger train called the Golden Arrow? If so, is there a consist list availible? I saw Champ makes a decal set, but i'd rather check into it before i get it. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] The Golden Arrow? Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:10:19 -0500 I think the Golden Arrow was a Detroit-Chicago train operated by the PRR and Wabash (which was owned by the Pennsy at the time). I think it was a day train in competition with NYC's Twilight Limited. -----Original Message----- From: John Frantz [mailto:johnf2384@suscom.net] Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 1:34 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] The Golden Arrow? Gents, Does anybody know if the PRR had a passenger train called the Golden Arrow? If so, is there a consist list availible? I saw Champ makes a decal set, but i'd rather check into it before i get it. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 15:10:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] The Golden Arrow? John, Yes indeedy the PRR had a GOLDEN ARROW. Here is K4s 3876 with the Train Board installed below the Keystone Plate. http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/k43876.JPG I have no consists books to help out with that part of your question....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] The Golden Arrow? Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 15:23:56 -0400 John & list: I recall a "Detroit Arrow" on the PRR, but AFAIK the "Golden Arrow" or "Fleche D'Or" was the most famous London-Paris train prior to the Second World War. Its Pullmans were carried by carferry between Dover and Calais.. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Frantz" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 2:33 PM Subject: [PRR] The Golden Arrow? > Gents, > > Does anybody know if the PRR had a passenger train called > the Golden Arrow? If so, is there a consist list > availible? I saw Champ makes a decal set, but i'd rather > check into it before i get it. > > John > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] The Golden Arrow? Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 15:48:31 -0400 An aside, but seems to me that one of my Pennsy videos has several minutes of footage of smoke tests run on a K-4, and I think it was the Golden Arrow. Not sure offhand which video it was, however. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:57:44 -0500 Subject: [PRR] "Golden Arrow" From: Frederick Ripley Hi All, "The Golden Arrow" was a pre-war New York-Chicago train- all pullman! (at least in 1941). It is gone from the timetable by 1945. The "Red Arrow", which lasted much longer (until 1959 or so) was a NY-Detroit train. Fred R. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 15:03:01 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Detroit-Chicago "Arrows" From: Frederick Ripley Someone mentioned Detroit-Chicago: The word "Arrow" was indeed used in the Wabash-PRR Detroit-Chicago service. In 1947, the three pairs of trains were: "Chicago Arrow/Detroit Arrow"; "Red Bird"; "Mid City Express". This service ended very early, sometime in 1948 I believe. Fred R. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] The Golden Arrow? Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 16:08:56 -0400 More re: Golden Arrow. A "Google" search for Pennsylvania Railroad Golden Arrow yielded the following: http://members.aol.com/chirailfan/rpasscus.html Golden Arrow listed as train #89 arriving @ 4:40pm from NY in 1947. Not listed in 1959 or 1971. Also: http://www.geocities.com/orvillei/prr1947.html included the following: Train #89, 89-11, "The Golden Arrow" ran from New York to Chicago with connecting cars to the west coast. A lounge car from New York to Chciago(3 compartments, drawing room, buffet), sleeping cars from New York to Los Angeles(4 compartments, 2 drawing roms, 4 double bedrooms)--to CRI&P # 3, New York to Chicago(12 sections, drawing room), New York to Cincinnati(12 sections, drawing room)--in #267 at Pittsburg, New York to Birmingham(12 sections, drawing room)--to Cincinnati and L&N RR., Washington to Pittsburg(8 sections, 5 double bedrooms), parlor cars Pittsburg to Chicago, Indianapolis to Louisville(cafe lounge), dining cars New York to Chicago, Pittsburg to Columbus --in #267, coaches New York to Chicago, Washington to Pittsburg--in #51-79, Pittsburg to Cincinnati--in #267, Pittsburg to St. Louis--in #11. Train #89-661, "The Golden Arrow" ran from New York to Pittsburg with a sleeping car from New York to Pittsburg(12 sections, drawing room), dining car from Pittsburg to Mansfield(en route to Chicago in #43), cafe coach Altoona to Pittsburg, parlor and coach Pittsburg to Detroit(buffet)--in #43-443, coach from New York to Altoona(en route to Chicago #89.) ---------------------------- I'm sure Jerry's "Keystone Crossings" website has timetables and other info that may help. There may also be listers who have reprints of some of the old Official Guides which told all - train names and numbers, and consistes. I think they did reprints of the Guides of 1916, 1930, and 1940 and possibly one older. I have those three but don't have access to them right now. Hope all this helps. Google searches sometimes yield surprising information. I had no idea this was therek! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:27:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Vondruska Subject: [PRR] modeling the Panhandle's Springfield branch --0-932252456-1055366856=:83168 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jim, My layout is still pretty much in the conceptual, mental stages. I have built the framerowrk of two modules, 4-foot and 6-foot respectivlely, that are waitng benchwork for the Springfield Branch between the Springfield Pike (U.S.68 North) underpass/Oldtown Run bridges and the southend of Yellw Springs. One of the thirteen bridges needed for this riverine scene, a two-lane open deck, single span steel through warren truss carrying Springfield Pike across Jacoby's Run on the northern edge of Goes Station, built nearly stock from an ancient Mantua Metal Works brass bridge kit has been been finished, The other spans needed are: One steel, through warren truss single span railroad bridge carrying the LMRR across the Little Miami Riverjust two 2-lane steel bowstring through truss bridges to be scratch built from structural shapes probably one styrene and one brass, six plate girders of varying lengths and strength. Three will carry Ohio's oldest railline across Oldtown Run, Massie's Creek and Jacoby's Run. Three other, less substantial plate girder spans parallelling the highway spans will carry the tracks of the Springfield & Xenia Electric Railway Co. across the Little Miami and its tributaries. As the branch runs atop an embankment part of the approaches to the Oldtown Run and Jacoby's Run bridges, two (2) through plate girder spans will carry the branch line across Springfield Pike. At the north end of the module, an entrance into hidden tackage will be scened by a classic light duty wooden highway bridge carrying East Hyde Road across a cut that lessens the climb into Yellow Spring which the branchline runs l lcrossing of the bottom land along the Little I'm hoping to find a away to include the covered bridge carrying Jacoby Road across the Little Miami east of the LMRR's Jacoby Run span. I'm considering forcing perspective by using an N-Scale Campbell's covered bridge kit for this gem I'll hide in the background. There is industry other than agricultures on this hidden gem, a small meatpacking plant (oversize butcher's shop?) by the Brush Row Road grade crossing in Oldtown, the King's Powder Co. powder mill and a small machine shop between the tracks and Sprigfield Pike (U.S. 68). The modern (for 1949) Morris Bean & Co. foundry is located just south of East Hyde Road. Three modules will complete the first phase of the layout --Antioch College and downtown Yellow Springs with its combo 1870 Panhandle depot, granary and cannery; the rural farm land Hustead Wayside Chapel module, and the gateway to Springfield, the rural-urban transition of the Beatty module with its lumberyard, junk yard, grain elevator, S&X Ele. Ry. Co. car barns, Springfield Twp. Fire Dept. Station !, Possum Elementary School and motel under construction. Tom V. LittleMiamiRR wrote: Tom I want to introduce myself off list and to thank you for all of the history and incite that you share with this group- not to mention the articles you have written about Ohio railroads. I understand that you reside in Yellow Springs. I am a native of Osborn and to date me I finished high school at Fairborn in 1961. My Grandfather ( b 1875) grew up on a farm near Byron ( now part the Southwestern Portland quarry). I am now retiring and live in rural Southern Middle Tennessee. I call my layout the Little Miami and model Xenia to Dayton and Xenia to Undercliff Yard. I have a design completed ( some parts still subject to change and refinement) and all of the bench work is in place and the Xenia to Dayton main has been installed. Staging is arranged pretty much as Rick Tipton wrote in his Email about his Xenia-Cincinnati planning ideas. I wrote you and Rick on list about my modeling problem with East-West banks of the Little Miami at Middletown Junction and Undercliff. The problem at Middletown Junction can be solved if I am willing to make a major change to the bench work. However, I can't make any sense out of placing the hill and buildings on the West side of Undercliff in the foreground, which Rick wants me to do. Have you started to build your layout or are you in the planning stage? Look forward to sharing more ideas with you. Jim Kendig 1908 Clifftops Avenue P.O.Box 549 Monteagle, TN 37356 Phone: 931-924-5055 Fax: 931-924-5056 LMRR@blomand.net --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-932252456-1055366856=:83168 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Jim,
 
   My layout is still pretty much in the conceptual, mental stages. I have built the framerowrk of two modules, 4-foot and 6-foot respectivlely, that are waitng benchwork for the Springfield Branch between the Springfield Pike (U.S.68 North) underpass/Oldtown Run bridges and the southend of Yellw Springs. One of the thirteen bridges needed for this riverine scene, a two-lane open deck, single span steel through warren truss carrying Springfield Pike across Jacoby's Run on the northern edge of Goes Station, built nearly stock from an ancient Mantua Metal Works brass bridge kit has been been finished,
   The other spans needed are: One steel, through warren truss single span railroad bridge carrying the LMRR across the Little Miami Riverjust two 2-lane steel bowstring through truss bridges to be scratch built from structural shapes probably one styrene and one brass, six plate girders of varying lengths and strength. Three will carry Ohio's oldest railline across Oldtown Run, Massie's Creek and Jacoby's Run. Three other, less substantial plate girder spans parallelling the highway spans will carry the tracks of the Springfield & Xenia Electric Railway Co. across the Little Miami and its tributaries. As the branch runs atop an embankment part of the approaches to the Oldtown Run and Jacoby's Run bridges, two (2) through plate girder spans will carry the branch line across Springfield Pike.
   At the north end of the module, an entrance into hidden tackage will be scened by a classic light duty wooden highway bridge carrying East Hyde Road across a cut that lessens the climb into Yellow Spring which the branchline runs l lcrossing of the bottom land along the Little 
   I'm hoping to find a away to include the covered bridge carrying Jacoby Road across the Little Miami east of the LMRR's Jacoby Run span. I'm considering forcing perspective by using an N-Scale Campbell's covered bridge kit for this gem I'll hide in the background.
   There is industry other than agricultures on this hidden gem, a small meatpacking plant (oversize butcher's shop?) by the Brush Row Road grade crossing in Oldtown, the King's Powder Co. powder mill and a small machine shop between the tracks and Sprigfield Pike (U.S. 68). The modern (for 1949) Morris Bean & Co. foundry is located just south of East Hyde Road.
   Three modules will complete the first phase of the layout --Antioch College and downtown Yellow Springs with its combo 1870 Panhandle depot, granary and cannery; the rural farm land Hustead Wayside Chapel module, and the gateway to Springfield, the rural-urban transition of the Beatty module with its lumberyard, junk yard, grain elevator, S&X Ele. Ry. Co. car barns, Springfield Twp. Fire Dept. Station !, Possum Elementary School and motel under construction.
 
Tom V.
   

LittleMiamiRR <LMRR@blomand.net> wrote:
Tom
I want to introduce myself off list and to thank you for all of the history and incite that you share with this group- not to mention the articles you have written about Ohio railroads.
 
I understand that you reside in Yellow Springs.  I am a native of Osborn and to date me I finished high school at Fairborn in 1961.  My Grandfather ( b 1875) grew up on a farm near Byron ( now part the Southwestern Portland quarry). I am now retiring and live in rural Southern Middle Tennessee.
 
I call my layout the Little Miami and model Xenia to Dayton and Xenia to Undercliff Yard.
 
I have a design completed ( some parts still subject to change and refinement) and all of the bench work is in place and the Xenia to Dayton main has been installed. Staging is arranged pretty much as Rick Tipton wrote in his Email about his Xenia-Cincinnati planning ideas. I wrote you and Rick on list about my modeling problem with East-West banks of the Little Miami at Middletown Junction and Undercliff.  The problem at Middletown Junction can be solved if I am willing to make a major change to the bench work.  However, I can't make any sense out of placing the hill and buildings on the West side of Undercliff in the foreground, which Rick wants me to do.
 
Have you started to build your layout or are you in the planning stage?
 
Look forward to sharing more ideas with you.
 
 
 
 
Jim Kendig
1908 Clifftops Avenue
P.O.Box 549
Monteagle, TN 37356
Phone: 931-924-5055
Fax: 931-924-5056
LMRR@blomand.net
 
 

Do you Yahoo!?
Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). --0-932252456-1055366856=:83168-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pennsy Nut" Subject: Re: [PRR] The Golden Arrow? Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 17:30:41 -0500 Hi I'd like to chime in here with what I found in my notes. All subject to correction. WB has it right. My notes indicate a #79 Eastbound, #89 Westbound (could be opposite?), from Chicago to/from Boston, New York. And the #661 is also in those notes, but no other info. So I can only say then that the only new info I have is the #79 and that the train got to NY through Boston? Hope this helps. So, John, you can use those decals. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 & Proud SPF ---- Original Message ----- From: "William Bigler" To: "William Bigler" ; Sent: Wednesday, 11 June, 2003 3:08 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] The Golden Arrow? > More re: Golden Arrow. A "Google" search for Pennsylvania Railroad Golden > Arrow yielded the following: > > http://members.aol.com/chirailfan/rpasscus.html Golden Arrow listed as > train #89 arriving @ 4:40pm from NY in 1947. Not listed in 1959 or 1971. > > Also: http://www.geocities.com/orvillei/prr1947.html included the > following: > > Train #89, 89-11, "The Golden Arrow" ran from New York to Chicago with > connecting cars to the west coast. A lounge car from New York to Chciago(3 > compartments, drawing room, buffet), sleeping cars from New York to Los > Angeles(4 compartments, 2 drawing roms, 4 double bedrooms)--to CRI&P # 3, > New York to Chicago(12 sections, drawing room), New York to Cincinnati(12 > sections, drawing room)--in #267 at Pittsburg, New York to Birmingham(12 > sections, drawing room)--to Cincinnati and L&N RR., WashingtD2= o > Pittsburg(8 sections, 5 double bedrooms), parlor cars Pittsburg to Chicago, > Indianapolis to Louisville(cafe lounge), dining cars New York to Chicago, > Pittsburg to Columbus --in #267, coaches New York to Chicago, Washington to > Pittsburg--in #51-79, Pittsburg to Cincinnati--in #267, Pittsburg to St. > Louis--in #11. > > Train #89-661, "The Golden Arrow" ran from New York to Pittsburg with a > sleeping car from New York to Pittsburg(12 sections, drawing room), dining > car from Pittsburg to Mansfield(en route to Chicago in #43), cafe coach > Altoona to Pittsburg, parlor and coach Pittsburg to Detroit(buffet)--in > #43-443, coach from New York to Altoona(en route to Chicago #89.) > ---------------------------- > I'm sure Jerry's "Keystone Crossings" website has timetables and other info > that may help. There may also be listers who have reprints of some of the > old Official Guides which told all - train names and numbers, and consistes. > I think they did reprints of the Guides of 1916, 1930, and 1940 and possibly > one older. I have those three but don't have access to them right now. > > Hope all this helps. Google searches sometimes yield surprising > information. I had no idea this was therek! > > Bill Bigler > Big Flats NY > Modeling PRR Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 20:05:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Yard lead length and yard design --part1_19f.16449fa3.2c191de4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/11/03 10:57:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cupper@att.net writes: > Hi, Rick: > > Just a quick note, I saw that you listed Enola as a "USRA-era" yard. While > improvements were probably made to it during the USRA time period, the yard > was actually opened a full decade earlier, on January 15, 1905. Don't know if > that makes a difference in your characterization or not, but just thought I'd > mention it. > > Dan Cupper A good point. Actually, if built in 1905, it was undoubtedly a prototype of yard layouts through the USRA years. If Enola was relaid or revised any time into the early twenties (I think I've seen maps from 1916), then it was probably functioning pretty much like the "USRA yards" after the revision. Mostly I was trying (badly) to make the point that at any given time, the Pennsy had firm ideas of how a yard should be laid out, equipped, and operated. My suspicion is that this made Pennsy yards more alike than different. We can see that Pennsy built the "receiving yard, hump, and a combined class track bowl/departure track yard" configuration all over the place. Naturally, where classification throughput was extreme (Enola, Pitcairn, Columbus, undoubtedly many others), a yard complex had one of these yards for eastbound traffic, and a second one dedicated to westbound traffic. Interesting issues, but these "big yards" are way too big for most of us modelers to worry about. I also expect (but have no proof other than observation) that the smaller yards we CAN model were also laid out according to PRR "standard" design principles. Certainly, it's easy to observe from track plans/track charts that any kind of yard at all was provided with a lead (drill track?) that allowed switchers to do pullouts from arrival tracks and then classify cars on body "class" tracks, all without interfering with mainline moves, and often without interfering with arriving and departing trains. On the model, as in the prototype, this was/is a recipe for high productivity. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_19f.16449fa3.2c191de4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/11/03 10:57:42 AM Eastern Dayligh= t Time, cupper@att.net writes:


Hi, Rick:

Just a quick note, I saw that you listed Enola as a "USRA-era" yard. While i= mprovements were probably made to it during the USRA time period, the yard w= as actually opened a full decade earlier, on January 15, 1905. Don't know if= that makes a difference in your characterization or not, but just thought I= 'd mention it.

Dan Cupper


A good point.  Actually, if built in 1905, it was undoubtedly a prototy= pe of yard layouts through the USRA years.  If Enola was relaid or revi= sed any time into the early twenties (I think I've seen maps from 1916), the= n it was probably functioning pretty much like the "USRA yards" after the re= vision.

Mostly I was trying (badly) to make the point that at any given time, the Pe= nnsy had firm ideas of how a yard should be laid out, equipped, and operated= .  My suspicion is that this made Pennsy yards more alike than differen= t.  We can see that Pennsy built the "receiving yard, hump, and a combi= ned class track bowl/departure track yard" configuration all over the place.=   Naturally, where classification throughput was extreme (Enola, Pitcai= rn, Columbus, undoubtedly many others), a yard complex had one of these yard= s for eastbound traffic, and a second one dedicated to westbound traffic.
Interesting issues, but these "big yards" are way too big for most of us mod= elers to worry about.  I also expect (but have no proof other than obse= rvation) that the smaller yards we CAN model were also laid out according to= PRR "standard" design principles.  Certainly, it's easy to observe fro= m track plans/track charts that any kind of yard at all was provided with a=20= lead (drill track?) that allowed switchers to do pullouts from arrival track= s and then classify cars on body "class" tracks, all without interfering wit= h mainline moves, and often without interfering with arriving and departing=20= trains.  On the model, as in the prototype, this was/is a recipe for hi= gh productivity. 

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_19f.16449fa3.2c191de4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] The Golden Arrow Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 21:36:59 -0400 List, Thanx for all of the helpful information. The ultimate reality of my question was that the flagship train of my Private Road, the Tuckahoe Valley, is the Golden Arrow. If there is anyone online that was involved in boy scouts and specifically the Order of the Arrow. It's an easy assumption. Anway, I asked for the information though because i'd like to model the consist as accurately as possible with the exception of the trains carrier road and pullman names. Once again, thank you. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 21:43:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] The Golden Arrow? In 1930 the Golden Arrow was all-first-class, Nos. 78 and 79. It ran on the same schedule as the Broadway, only one hour later westbound, two hours later eastbound; 20 hours NY-Chicago. Golden Arrow had an additional stop at Lima, and at Canton eastbound. It also had Washington cars (including coaches on the connection), which the Broadway did not. Otherwise compositon was similar: diner, club car, observation, sleepers. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 22:49:33 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] The Golden Arrow, capsule history --------------070404090603000609000704 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings to John, Jerry, and the List: The all-Pullman, extra-fare Golden Arrow began running on September 29, 1929, between New York and Chicago. Eastbound as Train 78, it ran exactly two hours behind the Broadway and on the same pace; westbound as Train 79, it ran exactly an hour behind the Broadway, again, on the same pace. It also included a Chicago-Washington section in both directions at that time. Consist in 1929: 12 section-1 drawing room Pullmans (for both NY and DC) "Compartment-observation" (solarium?) Pullman NY-Chicago Club car NY-Chicago Observation car NY-Chicago Dining car NY-Altoona and Alliance-Chicago; also Harrisburg-DC As with many PRR trains, the consist and schedule changed over time (different sleeper configurations were offered, and for awhile it ran ahead of the Broadway instead of behind it). In early 1932, the extra fare was dropped from this and most other PRR trains except the Broadway. Also during the Depression, the Golden Arrow was combined with a succession of other trains. By the mid-1930s, coaches were added in various intermediate set-out patterns until it finally carried through NY-Chicago coaches in both directions. Eventually, the westbound schedule was shifted significantly so that 79 was the last NY-Chic train out of Penn Station every night (leaving at 11:40 pm). In 1940, the eastbound train (78) was dropped but returned the next year under a different name (The Pennsylvanian) and schedule. The westbound Train 79 continued to run under the Golden Arrow name with that late-night NY Penn departure for a number of years longer. In 1946, it even gained a scheduled and advertised second section (Train 89, scheduled out of NYP only 5 minutes behind 79). Later that year, Train 79 became the westbound version of The Pennsylvanian, while Train 89 was designated the Golden Arrow. In September 1947, Train 89 was dropped altogether and the Golden Arrow name was retired. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. --------------070404090603000609000704 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings to John, Jerry, and the List:

The all-Pullman, extra-fare Golden Arrow began running on September 29, 1929, between New York and Chicago. Eastbound as Train 78, it ran exactly two hours behind the Broadway and on the same pace; westbound as Train 79, it ran exactly an hour behind the Broadway, again, on the same pace. It also included a Chicago-Washington section in both directions at that time.

Consist in 1929:
12 section-1 drawing room Pullmans (for both NY and DC)
"Compartment-observation" (solarium?) Pullman NY-Chicago
Club car NY-Chicago
Observation car NY-Chicago
Dining car NY-Altoona and Alliance-Chicago; also Harrisburg-DC

As with many PRR trains, the consist and schedule changed over time (different sleeper configurations were offered, and for awhile it ran ahead of the Broadway instead of behind it). In early 1932, the extra fare was dropped from this and most other PRR trains except the Broadway. Also during the Depression, the Golden Arrow was combined with a succession of other trains. By the mid-1930s, coaches were added in various intermediate set-out patterns until it finally carried through NY-Chicago coaches in both directions. Eventually, the westbound schedule was shifted significantly so that 79 was the last NY-Chic train out of Penn Station every night (leaving at 11:40 pm). In 1940, the eastbound train (78) was dropped but returned the next year under a different name (The Pennsylvanian) and schedule.

The westbound Train 79 continued to run under the Golden Arrow name with that late-night NY Penn departure for a number of years longer. In 1946, it even gained a scheduled and advertised second section (Train 89, scheduled out of NYP only 5 minutes behind 79). Later that year, Train 79 became the westbound version of The Pennsylvanian, while Train 89 was designated the Golden Arrow. In September 1947, Train 89 was dropped altogether and the Golden Arrow name was retired.

Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, Pa. --------------070404090603000609000704-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Martin Skrzetuszewski" Subject: Re: [PRR] The Golden Arrow? Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 10:39:25 +0100 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C330CE.E4B6FE60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gregg & List, Not the answer to the original question, but...... I remember seeing the British Golden Arrow in my teens. It arrived in = London in the early evening as I recall and ran with brown and cream Pullman = Car Co. (then a subsidiary of the British Railways Board) parlor, = parlor/kitchen and parlor/baggage cars. This train ran London-Dover and return and connected via passenger ferry with the Fleche d'Or in Calais. The = standard European CIWL (blue) cars were too large for the British loading gauge = and were air braked only. Britain used vacuum brake for most = locomotive-hauled trains until the 1960's. The "Night Ferry" used the train ferry and comprised special smaller = CIWL sleeper cars and French baggage cars. These sleepers lacked the = elaborate internal wood marquetry of the standard cars (for fire-resistance) but = were dual braked. At Dover, 3 British cars were added (usually a day car with tables and adapter diaphragms, a buffet/bar car and a combine) for the = run to London. The stock arrived late evening in London and berthed = overnight, running back the following evening. The French attendants stayed on = board. As the services inevitably declined, the GA had non-Pullman cars = included in its consist. Latterly the NF lost its British cars including the = buffet/bar. Martin Skrzetuszewski London, England ----- Original Message ----- From: Gregg Mahlkov To: John Frantz ; Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 8:23 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] The Golden Arrow? > John & list: > > I recall a "Detroit Arrow" on the PRR, but AFAIK the "Golden Arrow" or > "Fleche D'Or" was the most famous London-Paris train prior to the = Second > World War. Its Pullmans were carried by carferry between Dover and Calais.. > > Gregg Mahlkov ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C330CE.E4B6FE60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gregg &=20 List,
Not the answer to the original question, but......

I = remember=20 seeing the British Golden Arrow in my teens. It arrived in London
in = the=20 early evening as I recall and ran with brown and cream Pullman = Car
Co. (then=20 a subsidiary of the British Railways Board) parlor, = parlor/kitchen
and=20 parlor/baggage cars. This train ran London-Dover and return = and
connected via=20 passenger ferry with the Fleche d'Or in Calais. The standard
European = CIWL=20 (blue) cars were too large for the British loading gauge and
were air = braked=20 only. Britain used vacuum brake for most locomotive-hauled
trains = until the=20 1960's.

The "Night Ferry" used the train ferry and comprised = special=20 smaller CIWL
sleeper cars and French baggage cars. These sleepers = lacked the=20 elaborate
internal wood marquetry of the standard cars (for = fire-resistance)=20 but were
dual braked. At Dover, 3 British cars were added (usually a = day car=20 with
tables and adapter diaphragms, a buffet/bar car and a combine) = for the=20 run
to London. The stock arrived late evening in London and berthed=20 overnight,
running back the following evening. The French attendants = stayed=20 on board.

As the services inevitably declined, the GA had = non-Pullman=20 cars included in
its consist. Latterly the NF lost its British cars = including=20 the buffet/bar.

Martin Skrzetuszewski
London, = England

-----=20 Original Message -----
From: Gregg Mahlkov <mahlkov@gtcom.net>
To: John Frantz <johnf2384@suscom.net>;=20 <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 8:23 PM
Subject: Re: = [PRR] The=20 Golden Arrow?


> John & list:
>
> I recall = a=20 "Detroit Arrow" on the PRR, but AFAIK the "Golden Arrow" or
> = "Fleche=20 D'Or" was the most famous London-Paris train prior to the Second
> = World=20 War. Its Pullmans were carried by carferry between Dover=20 and
Calais..
>
> Gregg=20 Mahlkov

------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C330CE.E4B6FE60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don Millbranth" Subject: [PRR] Coal Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 09:51:28 -0500 Anyone looking for coal for their model railroad? Have you checked your local aquarium shop? The better aquarium filter charcoal is made from bituminous coal and comes in several size granules/pieces. Don ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 16:15:03 +0000 Another excellent media to use in HO is a sand blasting grit called Black Beauty. It is very shiny and cheap. A 50# bag is about $1.75. > Anyone looking for coal for their model railroad? Have you checked your > local aquarium shop? > The better aquarium filter charcoal is made from bituminous coal and > comes in several size granules/pieces. > Don > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Buttonwood stock pens? Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:02:09 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Bill, all, I'm designing a mid-fifties layout that will include Wilkes-Barre, and placing all the industries is an enjoyable, maddening exercise. At Buttonwood, the thing that I cannot locate are the stock pens; they appear to be gone before any track charts I have seen. In Wilkes-Barre itself, I've had some luck associating indistries from the 1945 CT100e and the 1962 track charts, but of course there must have been changes, and I have no idea which of those companies were still around in 1954... Any pointers to information on rail-served Wilkes-Barre industries would be most welcome. Even street addresses would be useful. I dream of coming across a 1954 W-B phone book! Thanks! Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 17:41:21 GMT Subject: [PRR] The G. Arrow to Boston? From: Dominic Mazoch Maybe some of the cars of the G. Arrow, or even the whole train went north on the NHRR? Dominic Mazoch ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 17:49:05 GMT Subject: [PRR] PRR into theWindy City From: Dominic Mazoch The recent issues of Trains shows how, in text and maps, how the PRR "wormed" its way into the Windy City (Chicago). Now I can see why the "Panhandle" ended up using the "wrong" side of Union Sta. (North Side, all other PRR trains used the South Side.) Question: How did the PRR move equipment from the coach yards in the south to the North Side of the station? Run-through Track 30? Dominic Mazoch ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: RE: [PRR] Coal Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 13:25:50 -0500 Just make sure the "coal" passes the magnet test. Pete Reinhold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:04:36 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS New Discussion Forum A new PRR Discussion Forum is now available as part of the PRRT&HS Website. This is a major improvement to our former Discussion Web. This format provides registered users with the ability to edit their posts, and perform search operations, and allows the Society to archive old topics, gather opinions through the polling-voting feature and moderate posts. This improved forum also provides the ability to host live chat discussions. While we recognize it may take some time to become accustomed and comfortable with this new format, we believe, in the long term, that everyone will enjoy this improved forum. Please be patient with us as we learn to use this new application. The New Haven Historical Society has enjoyed great success with this same application, and can be viewed from a link found on our new discussion forum. Registration to this forum is not required. However, at some future date moderation will be enabled and all posts will be held until released by a forum moderator. Registered users will enjoy enhance features not accessible to non-registered users. We will be exercising the live chat feature tonight, Thursday at 8 p.m. EDT. You need to be a registered global member to participate. This is easily done at the site. They ask a lot of information, but you don't have to provide true information. I registered using the first letters of every thing and made out okay. You can visit the Discussion Forum at: http://pub163.ezboard.com/bprrthsdiscussionweb30239 Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "bill pokorny" Subject: [PRR] Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 18:51:29 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0077_01C33113.A2442360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am planning to build a HO scale layout based on the Schuylkill branch, = Delaware Ave area and have included part of the Highline and 30th street = station. I did say it was based on and I will be using a good bit of = modelers license to satisfy my various wants in a model railroad. I have = approx. a 20' by 45' space and I plan to have a double level layout with = a helix connecting the 2 levels. I have noticed that there are a = number of operators in this group so some of my questions are addressed = to them. OK my questions: 1. I have a copy of the David Messer book = Triumph III on the Phil.=20 terminal. Does anyone know of other books videos articles etc. that are = good sources for this area? 2. If anyone has one or knows of a way to = get track diagrams for the areas it would be appreciated. 3. A few weeks = ago there was some discussion on this group about architectural, road = and other styles that help to place a model railroad in the geographic = area being modeled. Any help in this area? 4. There are obviously a = number of operating members of this group. Any suggestions that will = enhance the operational enjoyment of this layout will also be welcomed. = I plan to have 2 staging yards at each end of the layout [1 6 track = yard for passenger trains and 1 6 track for freight trains]. 5. What do = the operators think about visible/sceniced/active as apposed to hidden = staging yards . I plan to have mine above each other at one end of the = two levels. Double ended , active and sceniced in a separate room. 6.I = live in southern Delaware. It would not be any trouble to meet someone = from the area or with knowledge of the area to spend the day = photographing or video taping the remnants of these areas. And the gas = and lunch would be on me. Anyone willing to be a guide? Bill Pokorny ------=_NextPart_000_0077_01C33113.A2442360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am planning to build a HO scale = layout based=20 on the Schuylkill branch, Delaware Ave area and have included part of = the=20 Highline and 30th street station. I did say it was based on and I will = be using=20 a good bit of modelers license to satisfy my various wants in a model = railroad.=20 I have approx. a 20' by 45' space and I plan to have a double level = layout with=20 a helix connecting the 2 levels.    I have noticed that = there are=20 a number of operators in this group so some of my questions are = addressed to=20 them.   OK my questions:  1. I have a copy of the David = Messer=20 book Triumph III on the Phil.
terminal. Does anyone know of other = books=20 videos articles etc. that are good sources for this area?  = 2. If=20 anyone has one or knows of a way to get track diagrams for the areas it = would be=20 appreciated. 3. A few weeks ago there was some discussion on this group = about=20 architectural, road and other styles that help to place a model railroad = in the=20 geographic area being modeled. Any help in this area? =    4. There=20 are obviously a number of operating members of this group. Any = suggestions that=20 will enhance the operational enjoyment of this layout will also  be = welcomed. I plan to have  2 staging  yards at each end of the = layout=20 [1 6 track  yard for passenger trains and 1 6 track for freight = trains]. 5.=20 What do the operators think about visible/sceniced/active as apposed to = hidden=20 staging yards . I plan to have mine above each other at one end of the = two=20 levels. Double ended , active and sceniced in a separate = room.  6.I=20 live in southern Delaware. It would not be any trouble to meet someone = from the=20 area or with knowledge of the area to spend the day photographing or = video=20 taping the remnants of these areas. And the gas and lunch would be on = me. Anyone=20 willing to be a guide?  Bill Pokorny
------=_NextPart_000_0077_01C33113.A2442360-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "bill pokorny" Subject: [PRR] Fw: [PRR] Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 21:22:28 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_010C_01C33128.BA3B7EE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: bill pokorny=20 To: c ; Chrisandbelton2@aol.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 6:51 PM Subject: [PRR]=20 I am planning to build a HO scale layout based on the Schuylkill branch, = Delaware Ave area and have included part of the Highline and 30th street = station. I did say it was based on and I will be using a good bit of = modelers license to satisfy my various wants in a model railroad. I have = approx. a 20' by 45' space and I plan to have a double level layout with = a helix connecting the 2 levels. I have noticed that there are a = number of operators in this group so some of my questions are addressed = to them. OK my questions: 1. I have a copy of the David Messer book = Triumph III on the Phil.=20 terminal. Does anyone know of other books videos articles etc. that are = good sources for this area? 2. If anyone has one or knows of a way to = get track diagrams for the areas it would be appreciated. 3. A few weeks = ago there was some discussion on this group about architectural, road = and other styles that help to place a model railroad in the geographic = area being modeled. Any help in this area? 4. There are obviously a = number of operating members of this group. Any suggestions that will = enhance the operational enjoyment of this layout will also be welcomed. = I plan to have 2 staging yards at each end of the layout [1 6 track = yard for passenger trains and 1 6 track for freight trains]. 5. What do = the operators think about visible/sceniced/active as apposed to hidden = staging yards . I plan to have mine above each other at one end of the = two levels. Double ended , active and sceniced in a separate room. 6.I = live in southern Delaware. It would not be any trouble to meet someone = from the area or with knowledge of the area to spend the day = photographing or video taping the remnants of these areas. And the gas = and lunch would be on me. Anyone willing to be a guide? Bill Pokorny ------=_NextPart_000_010C_01C33128.BA3B7EE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original = Message -----=20
From: bill pokorny =
To: c ; Chrisandbelton2@aol.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 6:51 PM
Subject: [PRR]

I am planning to build a HO scale = layout based=20 on the Schuylkill branch, Delaware Ave area and have included part of = the=20 Highline and 30th street station. I did say it was based on and I will = be using=20 a good bit of modelers license to satisfy my various wants in a model = railroad.=20 I have approx. a 20' by 45' space and I plan to have a double level = layout with=20 a helix connecting the 2 levels.    I have noticed that = there are=20 a number of operators in this group so some of my questions are = addressed to=20 them.   OK my questions:  1. I have a copy of the David = Messer=20 book Triumph III on the Phil.
terminal. Does anyone know of other = books=20 videos articles etc. that are good sources for this area?  = 2. If=20 anyone has one or knows of a way to get track diagrams for the areas it = would be=20 appreciated. 3. A few weeks ago there was some discussion on this group = about=20 architectural, road and other styles that help to place a model railroad = in the=20 geographic area being modeled. Any help in this area? =    4. There=20 are obviously a number of operating members of this group. Any = suggestions that=20 will enhance the operational enjoyment of this layout will also  be = welcomed. I plan to have  2 staging  yards at each end of the = layout=20 [1 6 track  yard for passenger trains and 1 6 track for freight = trains]. 5.=20 What do the operators think about visible/sceniced/active as apposed to = hidden=20 staging yards . I plan to have mine above each other at one end of the = two=20 levels. Double ended , active and sceniced in a separate = room.  6.I=20 live in southern Delaware. It would not be any trouble to meet someone = from the=20 area or with knowledge of the area to spend the day photographing or = video=20 taping the remnants of these areas. And the gas and lunch would be on = me. Anyone=20 willing to be a guide?  Bill Pokorny
------=_NextPart_000_010C_@33128.BA3B7EE0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:46:41 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Painting N Scale PRR-MP "Eagle" Cars From: Jerry Britton (Please respond direct in addition to "on list". Thanks.) The PRR had a number of cars painted in the MP "Eagle" scheme for interchange via its Penn Texas train. These were 10-6's built by ACF to Pullman plan 9008, which happens to be the 10-6 offered by Rivarossi/Arnold. I have a number of these cars that I am going to repaint from PRR livery to the MP "Eagle" livery. The painting/lettering diagrams are in the PRRT&HS book by Blardone & Tilp. I previously secured the correct model paints from members of the MOPAC list (thank you!) and decals can be had from Oddballs Decals. The roof and ends will be easy to paint. No issues. The sides present some issues and I am seeking advice on how to attack them. The overall color is blue. But there is a narrow yellow stripe and a narrow gray/silver stripe. The stripes are the issue. Do I: 1) Paint the sides blue, then mask and paint the stripes on top? 2) Paint the sides blue, then use decals for the stripes? 3) Overpaint the stripe colors, then mask and paint the blue overtop? Recommendations? Also, what brand(s) of tape for masking provide the sharpest edges when considering this is N scale and even the slightest bleed is undesirable? How quickly after painting do you pull the tape off? Leave it on too long and it might damage the paint underneath. Take it off too soon and you might leave a jagged edge. Thanks! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:56:35 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR] Bill asks: > I am planning to build a HO scale layout based on the Schuylkill >branch, Delaware Ave area and have included part of the Highline and 30th >street station. I did say it was based on and I will be using a good bit >of modelers license to satisfy my various wants in a model railroad. I >have approx. a 20' by 45' space and I plan to have a double level layout >with a helix connecting the 2 levels. I have noticed that there are a >number of operators in this group so some of my questions are addressed to >them. OK my questions: That's a nice space. From your comment about operators, it seems you don't count yourself as one. One suggestioperchave is that you get some experience operating to KNOW what YOU like and will enjoy. Part of designing a great layout is designing it to do the things you want to. Also you mention a helix. One of the greatest and worst design ideas ever for a model RR ...A helix in the middle of a run can be BORING and creates lots of operational issues. Did the branch have a grade? If so, you can use that and your space for an "around the room helix" rather than a space hogging blob. For more design ideas, you can also look to the Layout Design Special Interest Group of the NMRA (http://www.ldsig.org). I maintain their on-line Primer on Layout Design (http://primer.ldsig.org). You may find that you want to change your location, based on your operations experience, or you may find that the location you've chosen is PERFECT! I would suggest that you post your design to this or the LDSIG group for comments if you would like a "review"...use a JPEG format so everyone can view it. I found the extra opinions to be very helpful. >1. I have a copy of the David Messer book Triumph III on the Phil. >terminal. Does anyone know of other books videos articles etc. that are >good sources for this area? Nope! >2. If anyone has one or knows of a way to get track diagrams for the >areas it would be appreciated. Mark Bej's site has some drawings for Valley, Norristown, Creek and Brooke: http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/itlk_phl_har_branch.html The operational potential looks VERY interesting!! >3. A few weeks ago there was some discussion on this group about >architectural, road and other styles that help to place a model railroad >in the geographic area being modeled. Any help in this area? Model some of the classic industries...I see Alan Wood Steel at a couple of locations, as well as what appears to be a Case factory in Norristown. >From there, go to period photos...Norristown looks to me like it might be a focus of the layout...you can probably find historical photos at city hall or in the city archives. Norristown was another "factory town" with Philly style row houses in many neighborhoods. Obviously other things will be the PRR position light signals and the appropriate PRR towers. >4. There are obviously a number of operating members of this group. Any >suggestions that will enhance the operational enjoyment of this layout >will also be welcomed. I plan to have 2 staging yards at each end of >the layout [1 6 track yard for passenger trains and 1 6 track for >freight trains]. What was the actual train density? Was it 1:1 pass:freight? What will you freight trains do? How will you handle interchange (there are at least 2 spots where live interchange with the Reading is possible). I'm also concerned about the operation implications of modeling "part of the Highline and 30th street station". This concern predominantly focuses on getting the traffic density for those areas, and also, 30th street will use up about 1/2 that layout room! Remember that with passenger equipment, you should look at a minimum radius of no less than 30" and preferably 36", and all turnouts should be #8 or LARGER. I would focus on the branch, and probably not even model the junction with the E/W mainline at Overbrook...Hey, thats what STAGING is for . >5. What do the operators think about visible/sceniced/active as apposed >to hidden staging yards . I plan to have mine above each other at one end >of the two levels. Double ended , active and sceniced in a separate >room. Double ended? Why? Or do you mean that there will be escape track for the power? That can be accomplished without the lost space of entire second ladder. As for visible and scenicked, why not? Then your operators get the feel of boarding a train at a "real" yard. Scenery need not be much more than ballast, painted rails and some yard trash... Stacked should be no problem as yours will be at the height of the respetive decks. For closer together yards, you can put one on drawer slides, as in the latest Layout Design Journal or an MR article a few years back... Perhaps the most important consideration for staging is what you will do with it during and between sessions. Will trains be "fiddled" (made up and broken down) during a session? This adds to the ops possibilities, but complicates the design some. Will trains that terminate in staging in one session simply appear going in the opposite direction the next? Or will they be rearranged. Will some trains go only one direction (e.g. a loaded coal train) so that a helix connecting the staging yards might be appropriate. How will you "turn" passenger consists if they need to be turned? A wye track can help there... >6.I live in southern Delaware. It would not be any trouble to meet >someone >from the area or with knowledge of the area to spend the day >photographing or video taping the remnants of these areas. And the gas >and lunch would be on me. Anyone willing to be a guide? Bill Pokorny Sorry, can't help you there !! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 499loorENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Walthers announces the PS 10/5 in PRR Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:07:50 +0000 PRR Gize: I recieved an email from Trains.com with the Walthers announcement of the HO Scale Pulman Standard 10/5 in PRR. They had no photos but I would assume it will be painted as the 4-4-2, late 1940's era. I think that it will be prototypical, subject to the arrangement of the skirting at the bottom of the car. At any rate, I have a question. Assuming that Walthers will continue to produce late '30's PS passenger cars, what other cars can the produced that both the PRR and other railroads used? Is the 12-5 Duplex a good candidate? How about observation cars or lounge cars? Were those 1938 cars unique to the PRR or did other RR's have them. So far, I like what Walthers is doing. I just bought my 2nd 4-4-2 and am looking for another one.... Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:18:58 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Painting N Scale PRR-MP "Eagle" Cars >The roof and ends will be easy to paint. No issues. > >The sides present some issues and I am seeking advice on how to attack >them. The overall color is blue. But there is a narrow yellow stripe >and a narrow gray/silver stripe. The stripes are the issue. Do I: > >1) Paint the sides blue, then mask and paint the stripes on top? > >2) Paint the sides blue, then use decals for the stripes? > >3) Overpaint the stripe colors, then mask and paint the blue overtop? > >Recommendations? 3, maybe 2 but not 1 Yellow decals are notorious for not covering color...which is solved by double decaling. If the stripes are part of the set, go ahead and try blue with decals. Otherwise paint bands of the stripe colors, mask them, and shoot the body color. >Also, what brand(s) of tape for masking provide the sharpest edges when >considering this is N scale and even the slightest bleed is undesirable? Regular old masking tape is fine. I've also heard that people use auto pinstriping tape, and Chartette tape.. With masking tape, do not use the factory edge, but create a new edge with a SHARP blade and a straight edge. Stick the tape to the table top once or twice to reduce its stickiness, and then put it on the car. Don't work near the cat! Burnish it lightly with a dry transfer burnishing tool. Hit it with a LIGHT coat of the MASKED color to seal the edge and then paint the car blue.. >How quickly after painting do you pull the tape off? Leave it on too >long and it might damage the paint underneath. Take it off too soon and >you might leave a jagged edge. Depends on the paint . Acrylics dry quickly and don't need to cure. A quick shot with a blow dryer and you are done. Enamels should be allowed days to completely dry...I would make sure that the BASE coat is well dried (in this case the stripe colors) and then apply the tape. The body color should be applied and the masking tape removed as soon as possible, although remember to use multiple light coats and not a heavy coat. For acrylics, they should be dry enough in 1-5 minutes, unless you've gobbed the paint on (in which case you might consider stripping it and starting again ). For enamels, you may need to wait longer (like an hour) but you want to unmask before the paint completely cures. Pull the tape back at a very acute angle to reduce pulling up of the base coat. Clear coat, decal, clear coat, weather and you're done... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 11:50:10 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers announces the PS 10/5 in PRR Ted, Sticking to Pullmans, there is the 13 dbl br COUNTY cars. The 6 dbl br mid train lounges appeared in some variation on many RRs. No one has ever done a mid train lounge in plastic! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Ted Andrews wrote: > PRR Gize: > > I recieved an email from Trains.com with the Walthers announcement of the HO > Scale Pulman Standard 10/5 in PRR. They had no photos but I would assume it > will be painted as the 4-4-2, late 1940's era. > > I think that it will be prototypical, subject to the arrangement of the > skirting at the bottom of the car. > > At any rate, I have a question. Assuming that Walthers will continue to > produce late '30's PS passenger cars, what other cars can the produced that > both the PRR and other railroads used? Is the 12-5 Duplex a good candidate? > How about observation cars or lounge cars? Were those 1938 cars unique to > the PRR or did other RR's have them. > > So far, I like what Walthers is doing. I just bought my 2nd 4-4-2 and am > looking for another one.... > > Ted Andrews > Carmel, Indiana > > _________________________________________________________________ > Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] SKOOKILL Branch RR Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 16:09:05 +0000 I'm also concerned about the operation implications of modeling "part of the Highline and 30th street station". This concern predominantly focuses on getting the traffic density for those areas, and also, 30th street will use up about 1/2 that layout room! Remember that with passenger equipment, you should look at a minimum radius of no less than 30" and preferably 36", and all turnouts should be #8 or LARGER. I would focus on the branch, and probably not even model the junction with the E/W mainline at Overbrook...Hey, thats what STAGING is for . I too planned to use 30th St. to end my corridor rr to Morris but I have changed my mind. I though the east side of 30th St. Station would make an excellent bacdrop for my passenger trains to enter and loop back as well as the freights on the high line giving me two levels of storage. The only problem is that it does take tremendous space and unless you plan to transplant some industry to replace the Penn coach yard there is nothing to do there other than store passenger cars and the Race St. engine terminal. I thought about moving the post office and possibly the Inquirer printing plant there but it would really bastardize the area. You are also limited to running the NY-Wash. traffic and none of the East-West traffic (read Broadway Ltd.). I think I am now going to end either with the east leads to Zoo or the Schulkill river bridge and have the main disappear into the trees. The latter seems the easiest since the turning loop will all be on one level but the Zoo leads offers more storage so I am still working that idea out mentally. Besides by ending east of Zoo I can run any passenger train that went to or from New York that I feel like including and don;t have to model Zoo which is an absolute nightmare. The down side is the passenger equipment only has a stop at N. Phl. now other than commuters but with DCC the N. Phl. towerman can handle that in addition to his regular duties. In the case of the shculkil branch there would be no passenger traffic to speak of since the Washington sections used the North Central in most cases. You could however have some serious ore movement out the main from Greenwich inclduing using BP60/50's. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers announces the PS 10/5 in PRR Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 12:37:43 -0400 If Walthers did the County seriesthey could also do the N de M paint scheme for those mexicans. If i recall a number of the PRR cars wound up down south and maybe one or two are still around as we speak. John ------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Wrote: Ted, Sticking to Pullmans, there is the 13 dbl br COUNTY cars. The 6 dbl br mid train lounges appeared in some variation on many RRs. No one has ever done a mid train lounge in plastic! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:10:24 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Changed Road Numbers for N Scale Bowser N5c's From: Jerry Britton I've been working with Bowser and this afternoon received a confirmation that he is changing many of the planned road numbers based on my documentation of regional assignments. Many of the road numbers he was planning to assign to various regions were inaccurate. Some modelers do care about such "trivial" matters. Also, there are now more road numbers that had trainphone antennas installed. Pre 1956 there were three regions: Eastern, Central, and Western. Post 1956 there were nine, made from the sub "divisions" of the former regions. The Shadow Keystone came into being in 1954. That all said, the final choices of road numbers, with their 1957 assignments are as follows: Stock #37501 Original Lettering, Eastern Region under the road number 477900 1957: Philadelphia Region: ENOLA CREW ***trainphone*** 477887 1957: Chesapeake Region: ENOLA-POT YARD 477839 1957: New York Region: ENOLA-JERSEY CITY Stock #37502 Original Lettering, Western Region under the road number 477967 1957: Buckeye Region: COLUMBUS A - PITCAIRN 477852 1957: Buckeye Region: COLUMBUS B - INDIANAPOLIS *** trainphones *** 477896 1957: Southwest Region: TERRE HAUTE - PEORIA BRANCH Stock #37503 Original Lettering, Central Region under the road number 477996 1957: Northern Region: ENOLA - RENOVO *** trainphones *** 477998 1957: Northern Region: ALTOONA - SOUTHPORT 477994 1957: Pittsburgh Region: LEWISTOWN - MILROY CREW 243 *** trainphones *** Stock #37504 Shadow Keystone, Pittsburgh Region under the road number 477938 1957: Pittsburgh Region: ENOLA ALTOONA CREW 134 *** trainphones *** 477845 1957: Pittsburgh Region: PITCAIRN - ALTOONA POOL #17 477821 1957: Pittsburgh Region: SOUTHFORK - BRANCH RUN 900AM *** trainphones *** Stock #37506 Shadow Keystone, Philadelphia Region under the road number 477827 1957: Philadelphia Region: ENOLA - YORK 477867 1957: Philadelphia Region: NOLA - EDGEMOOR 478014 1957: Philadelphia Region: ENOLA #205 CREW Stock #37507 Shadow Keystone, Buckeye Region under the road number 477850 1957: Buckeye Region: COLUMBUS B - LOGANSPORT *** trainphones *** 477921 1957: Buckeye Region: COLUMBUS B - INDIANAPOLIS *** trainphones *** 478009 1957: Buckeye Region: COLUMBUS - PITCAIRN Stock #37505 Shadow Keystone, Eastern Region under the road number 477906 1957: Philadelphia Region: ENOLA P-84 CREW 477930 1957: Chesapeake Region: POTOMAC YARD - ENOLA POOL 477876 1957: New York Region: EDGEMOOR - GRILL MD-7-14 Stock #37512 Original Lettering, "Buy War Bonds" 477974 1957: Northern Region: SOUTHPORT - WILLIAMSPORT - CANANDIGUA 477977 1957: Northern Region: ERIE - BUFFALO BEC-2 478009 1957: Buckeye Region: COLUMBUS - PITCAIRN NOTE: I was only able to provide trainphone info in this category, and to define the assignment. I made no recommendation as to which units ever wore the "Buy War Bonds" livery. However, Bowser does have a photo of 478009 in this livery, so at least this one unit is accurate. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Re: Changed Road Numbers for N Scale Bowser N5c's Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:46:35 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell On 13 Jun, Jerry Britton wrote: > I've been working with Bowser and this afternoon received a > confirmation that he is changing many of the planned road numbers based > on my documentation of regional assignments. [ ... ] Jerry, just to clarify: the lettering on the model is (e.g.) just "Eastern Region", but the assignments you've found are not noted on the model? So that, for instance, cabin 477998 (below) is marked "Central Region" and nothing more specific? > Stock #37503 Original Lettering, Central Region under the road number > 477996 1957: Northern Region: ENOLA - RENOVO *** trainphones *** > 477998 1957: Northern Region: ALTOONA - SOUTHPORT > 477994 1957: Pittsburgh Region: LEWISTOWN - MILROY CREW 243 *** trainphones *** Like you, I'm more interested in the 1954 assignments, and the Wilkes-Barre branch saw trains that originated in Altoona, Enola and Northumberland (as well as having a few of its own IIRC), so I'd guess that (lacking better evidence, and barring severe wandering) those trains could've carried cabins labelled either Central or Eastern region? BTW, thanks again for the division progression chart at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/images/divisions41-68.gif Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 15:54:53 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: Changed Road Numbers for N Scale Bowser N5c's From: Jerry Britton On Friday, June 13, 2003, at 03:46 PM, Dennis Rockwell wrote: > On 13 Jun, Jerry Britton wrote: > >> I've been working with Bowser and this afternoon received a >> confirmation that he is changing many of the planned road numbers >> based >> on my documentation of regional assignments. [ ... ] > > Jerry, just to clarify: the lettering on the model is (e.g.) > just "Eastern Region", but the assignments you've found are > not noted on the model? So that, for instance, cabin 477998 > (below) is marked "Central Region" and nothing more > specific? No, nothing more specific. Check the photos. The pre-1956 regions were made up of divisions (i.e. Middle, Philadelphia, Northern, Maryland, etc.). The cabin markings did not get that specific. > >> Stock #37503 Original Lettering, Central Region under the road number >> 477996 1957: Northern Region: ENOLA - RENOVO *** trainphones *** >> 477998 1957: Northern Region: ALTOONA - SOUTHPORT >> 477994 1957: Pittsburgh Region: LEWISTOWN - MILROY CREW 243 *** >> trainphones *** > > Like you, I'm more interested in the 1954 assignments, and > the Wilkes-Barre branch saw trains that originated in > Altoona, Enola and Northumberland (as well as having a few > of its own IIRC), so I'd guess that (lacking better > evidence, and barring severe wandering) those trains > could've carried cabins labelled either Central or Eastern > region? Yes, that is correct. Unfortunately, I don't have any records of cabin assignments other than 1957. Many stories are told that crews kept the same cabins over time. So many of the 1957 assignments will backtrack to earlier years. Of course, a lot of train symbols changed too! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 16:29:26 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers announces the PS 10/5 in PRR I'll have to check when I am next at the club, but I thought the Walthers PRR 4-4-2 had 41 HR trucks. These would be correct for any period from as-biuilt to at least the late fifties and in most case good thru retirement. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Chrisandbelton2@aol.com wrote: > I'm disappointed with the Walther's P-S 4-4-2 cars for the PRR because they are modeled in such a way that they can only accurately reflect a late '50's/early '60's car. They certainly aren't "as built" as the cars were nearly 20 years old by the time they took on the appearance and configuration of the Walthers model. For those of us who model the late '40's or early '50's, the Walthers cars require, at a minimum, a change of trucks and added skirting. > > I imagine the 10-5 will have the same shortcomings for anyone modeling the pre-1957 eras. > > Chris B #1918 -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 19:20:54 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers announces the PS 10/5 in PRR --part1_9.134001c4.2c1bb656_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit AFAIK, the 'as-delivered' trucks under a 1938 P-S 4-4-2 were the "Challenger" design (I forget the designation and I'm too lazy at the moment to look it up). What's under Walthers models is representational of a replacement truck from the late '40's or beyond. Chris B #1918 --part1_9.134001c4.2c1bb656_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable AFAIK, the 'as-delivered' trucks under a 1938 P-S 4-4-= 2 were the "Challenger" design (I forget the designation and I'm too lazy at= the moment to look it up).  What's under Walthers models is representa= tional of a replacement truck from the late '40's or beyond.

Chris B  #1918 --part1_9.134001c4.2c1bb656_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Re: Changed Road Numbers for N Scale Bowser N5c's Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 21:11:28 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell On 13 Jun, Jerry Britton wrote: > On Friday, June 13, 2003, at 03:46 PM, Dennis Rockwell wrote: > > > So that, for instance, cabin 477998 > > is marked "Central Region" and nothing more > > specific? > > No, nothing more specific. Check the photos. Ah! I didn't realize that he'd updated his web page already. Good for him! > [ ... ] Many stories are told that crews kept the > same cabins over time. So many of the 1957 assignments will backtrack > to earlier years. Of course, a lot of train symbols changed too! More research! Thanks much for the heads-up on this change. Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 00:47:01 -0400 From: Alex Charyna Subject: Re: [PRR] SKOOKILL Branch RR All this talk about the Skookill Branch has finally gotten me into publishing my plans and ideas online. Take a look if your interested, I invite all constructive criticism. It's late, so I can't take responsibility for typos and lousy english. :) http://charyna.homeunix.com/PRR/index.html -alex On Friday, Jun 13, 2003, at 12:09 US/Eastern, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > I'm also concerned about the operation implications of modeling "part > of > the Highline and 30th street station". This concern predominantly > focuses > on getting the traffic density for those areas, and also, 30th street > will > use up about 1/2 that layout room! Remember that with passenger > equipment, > you should look at a minimum radius of no less than 30" and preferably > 36", > and all turnouts should be #8 or LARGER. I would focus on the branch, > and > > probably not even model the junction with the E/W mainline at > Overbrook...Hey, thats what STAGING is for . > > I too planned to use 30th St. to end my corridor rr to Morris but I > have > changed my mind. I though the east side of 30th St. Station would > make an > excellent bacdrop for my passenger trains to enter and loop back as > well as the > freights on the high line giving me two levels of storage. The only > problem is > that it does take tremendous space and unless you plan to transplant > some > industry to replace the Penn coach yard there is nothing to do there > other than > store passenger cars and the Race St. engine terminal. I thought > about moving > the post office and possibly the Inquirer printing plant there but it > would > really bastardize the area. You are also limited to running the > NY-Wash. > traffic and none of the East-West traffic (read Broadway Ltd.). I > think I am > now going to end either with the east leads to Zoo or the Schulkill > river > bridge and have the main disappear into the trees. The latter seems > the > easiest since the turning loop will all be on one level but the Zoo > leads > offers more storage so I am still working that idea out mentally. > Besides by > ending east of Zoo I can run any passenger train that went to or from > New York > that I feel like including and don;t have to model Zoo which is an > absolute > nightmare. The down side is the passenger equipment only has a stop > at N. Phl. > now other than commuters but with DCC the N. Phl. towerman can handle > that in > addition to his regular duties. In the case of the shculkil branch > there would > be no passenger traffic to speak of since the Washington sections used > the > North Central in most cases. You could however have some serious ore > movement > out the main from Greenwich inclduing using BP60/50's. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] Walthers announces the PS 10/5 in PRR Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 01:04:57 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C33210.F93FF650 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable AFAIK, the 'as-delivered' trucks under a 1938 P-S 4-4-2 were the = "Challenger" design (I forget the designation and I'm too lazy at the = moment to look it up). What's under Walthers models is representational = of a replacement truck from the late '40's or beyond. Chris B #1918=20 Nope. I was wrong about the proportions (I said 8 out of 12) but 5 out = of 12 of the 4-4-2s had 41-HR trucks (as supplied by Walthers ) from = the factory. 39 out of 41 of the 10-5s had the 41-HR as delivered. The = balance of the cars had the "Challenger-like " trucks, 43-R. Cars = delivered in 1938 and some in 1939 had 43-R. Early in 1939 and through = 1940 the original equipment included 41-HR. Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C33210.F93FF650 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 

AFAIK, the 'as-delivered' trucks under a 1938 P-S = 4-4-2=20 were the "Challenger" design (I forget the designation and I'm too = lazy at the=20 moment to look it up).  What's under Walthers models is = representational=20 of a replacement truck from the late '40's or beyond.

Chris = B =20 #1918
 
Nope. I was wrong about the = proportions (I said 8=20 out of 12) but 5 out of 12 of the 4-4-2s  had 41-HR=20  trucks (as supplied by Walthers )  from the = factory.  39=20 out of 41 of the 10-5s had the 41-HR as delivered.  The balance = of the=20 cars had the  "Challenger-like " trucks,  43-R. Cars = delivered=20 in 1938 and some in 1939 had 43-R.  Early in 1939 and through = 1940 the=20 original equipment included 41-HR.
 
Bob=20 Zoeller
------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C33210.F93FF650-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Doug Day" Subject: [PRR] Cabin # change. Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 08:44:23 -0400 List, I've out this question on the Yahoo Pennsymodelers list before and I'm still trying to find a supplier (I think Bowser has them too) for n same style font and number size that are on the Bowser PRR cabin cars. I'd like to change some of the numbers on them and need to know if anybody has these. Doug (OH) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 09:39:54 EDT Subject: [PRR] Challenger Trucks --part1_35.39678439.2c1c7faa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit An item on the PRR-Talk list discussed the Challenger truck being used on some sleepers. Was there any advantage of this truck over other four wheeled trucks? Was this a Pullman design or used under other manufacturer's cars? Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 --part1_35.39678439.2c1c7faa_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   An item on the PRR-Talk list discussed the Chal= lenger truck being used on some sleepers.  Was there any advantage of t= his truck over other four wheeled trucks?  Was this a Pullman design or= used under other manufacturer's cars?

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346 --part1_35.39678439.2c1c7faa_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 10:19:05 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Painting N Scale PRR-MP "Eagle" Cars Jerry, I painted an F3 in the Eagle colors, using Bill Clouser's recommended sequence. 1) Paint the yellow stripe area - this will overspray slightly 2) Mask the yellow stripes with single strips of tape cut to stripe width 3) Repeat for Silver stripes (the F units did not have silver stripes) (the yellow masks are still applied) 4) Apply the Eagle Gray color 5) Mask the E. G. areas (the yellow and gray masks are still applied) 6) Apply the blue 7) Remove all masking I am glad you have proper color samples. The inks in the B&T book are far off (I know, it's been 45 years, but I wuz there....) I used regular masking tape - I realize O scale is not as sensitive about under-bleed as N. I put the tape on a piece of plate glass, lifted it up and replaced it a few times, then marked the stripe width with dividers and cut it to width with a metal straightedge and razor blade. The classic non-masking tape to use is Chartpak drafting tape - I do not know if it is still available. Other people have used plastic electr day tape (NOT "friction" tape). The more expensive brands are not nearly as gooey-sticky as the cheap brands. It might be too thick for N scale work. Paint should be fairly well set up before removing the tape. The recommended way to pull it off is to pull it back flat against the painted surface, at a 90 degree angle to the direction of the tape stripe. I would not leave it overnight. The easiest way to paint stripes is to first paint the color, then mask with one piece of tape to cover the stripe area, rather than to try to apply two pieces of tape stripe-width apart, keep them straight and parallel, and then paint in between. Steve Bartlett Jerry Britton wrote: ..... The sides present some issues and I am seeking advice on how to attack them. The overall color is blue. But there is a narrow yellow stripe and a narrow gray/silver stripe. The stripes are the issue. Do I: 1) Paint the sides blue, then mask and paint the stripes on top? 2) Paint the sides blue, then use decals for the stripes? 3) Overpaint the stripe colors, then mask and paint the blue overtop? Recommendations? Also, what brand(s) of tape for masking provide the sharpest edges when considering this is N scale and even the slightest bleed is undesirable? How quickly after painting do you pull the tape off? Leave it on too long and it might damage the paint underneath. Take it off too soon and you might leave a jagged edge. Thanks! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: [PRR] HO Resin BP20 A & B Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 13:47:26 -0400 We have just received confirmation from Resin Trains that they will be producing the PRR BP20 Sharknose formerly available through Miracle Castings. We expect "some" shortly. Dennis D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com featuring almost 10,000 in stock items 90A Jersey Avenue New Brunswick, NJ 08901 732-565-1555 Voice 732-565-1005 FAX ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kris Kollar" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: BLI M1a Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 17:18:13 -0400 Been outta town for a while so if this topic was discussed already please forgive me. Can someone enlighten me and describe what a recirculator fan on a fire box is. Where's it at? What's it look like and what does it do? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 1:34 PM Subject: [PRR] RE: BLI M1a > I went to the BLI website. The preproduction model is VERY impressive. > > I noticed that the engine number was "6716", which is one of the numbers > offered for the M1b. The preproduction model shown has a freight step pilot (not > cast), the "lower" headlight postion, and no recirculator fans on the firebox, > though. > > I guess they just put one of their M1b numbers on the M1a model. An M1b > started out as an M1a, anyway. Rob > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 03:35:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin # change. --part1_125.22d0d8ec.2c1d7bc8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Doug, Writes... > List, > > I've out this question on the Yahoo Pennsymodelers list before and I'm still > trying to find a supplier (I think Bowser has them too) for the same style > font and number size that are on the Bowser PRR cabin cars. I'd like to > change some of the numbers on them and need to know if anybody has these. > > Doug (OH) > Try Middle Division Decals they should match, if they don't Boswer made a mistake... 3^) Greg Martin --part1_125.22d0d8ec.2c1d7bc8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Doug,

Writes...

List,

I've out this question on the Yahoo Pennsymodelers list before and I'm still= trying to find a supplier (I think Bowser has them too) for the same style=20= font and number size that are on the Bowser PRR cabin cars.  I'd like t= o change some of the numbers on them and need to know if anybody has these.<= BR>
Doug (OH)


Try Middle Division Decals they should match, if they don't Boswer made a mi= stake... 3^)

Greg Martin
 --part1_125.22d0d8ec.2c1d7bc8_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 07:52:04 EDT Subject: [PRR] HO P85 Coach Models --part1_3f.1e3387f7.2c1db7e4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There was talk, may be a year ago, of the P85 coach kit being done by a mid-west hobby shop or model maker. Did this car ever make it into production? If so, where can they be obtained? Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 --part1_3f.1e3387f7.2c1db7e4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable    There was talk, may be a year ago, of&nbs= p; the P85 coach kit being done by a mid-west hobby shop or model maker.&nbs= p;  Did this car ever make it into production?  If so, where can t= hey be obtained?

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346 --part1_3f.1e3387f7.2c1db7e4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 07:54:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] HO P85 Coach Models On Sun, 15 Jun 2003 RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > There was talk, may be a year ago, of the P85 coach kit being done by a > mid-west hobby shop or model maker. Did this car ever make it into > production? If so, where can they be obtained? Des Plaines Hobbies. As far as I know "not yet" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 08:42:34 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] HO P85 Coach Models From: Jerry Britton > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3138511354_8404036 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 6/15/03 7:52 AM, "RDG2124@aol.com" wrote: > There was talk, may be a year ago, of the P85 coach kit being done by a > mid-west hobby shop or model maker. Did this car ever make it into > production? If so, where can they be obtained? > > The kit was produced by Des Plaines Hobbies, but never sold publicly. It will be built-up by InterMountain at some point, presumably later this year. The N scale version kit has been out for about 18 months. Built-ups from InterMountain are due this summer. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- --B_3138511354_8404036 Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] HO P85 Coach Models On 6/15/03 7:52 AM, "RDG2124@aol.com" <RD= G2124@aol.com> wrote:

  There was= talk, may be a year ago, of  the P85 coach kit being done by a mid-wes= t hobby shop or model maker.   Did this car ever make it into prod= uction?  If so, where can they be obtained?


The kit was produced by Des Plaines Hobb= ies, but never sold publicly. It will be built-up by InterMountain at some p= oint, presumably later this year. The N scale version kit has been out for a= bout 18 months. Built-ups from InterMountain are due this summer.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com  &= nbsp;  Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossi= ngs",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "= Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "M= S", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------
 --B_3138511354_8404036-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: [PRR] Fairbanks Morse Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 15:48:03 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C33355.816F0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gentlemen: Now that Soundtraxx is making FM decoders in DSX, can anyone tell me the = correct horn for the Erie Builts and the C-Liners? Thanks, Larry ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C33355.816F0800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gentlemen:
 
Now that Soundtraxx is making FM = decoders in DSX,=20 can anyone tell me the correct horn for the Erie Builts and the=20 C-Liners?
 
Thanks,
 
Larry
------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C33355.816F0800-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 19:47:30 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Soundtraxx FM Sound Decoders From: Jerry @ Pennsy While I was sleeping Soundtraxx released new sound decoders for FM diesels. There are several horn variations... http://www.soundtraxx.com/dcc/sound.html#Fairbanks-Morse%20Diesel What horns are appropriate for the Pennsy's FM... ...C Liners? ...Erie builts? ...H16-44's? An FM LC090 is also available for N scale. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] Fairbanks Morse Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 22:06:01 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C3338A.4E71F360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Larry, As built, the FM C-Liners had Nathan M-3 (three chimes - all facing = forward) horns,=20 the Erie Builts had Leslie A-200 single note horns. As to SoundTrax's offerings, they show: DSX # 825247 as an FM with Nathan M3 - the correct combination for = C-liners=20 DSX # 825244 as an FM with a WABCO E2 - this is the closest = approximation to reality -=20 the Westinghouse Air Brake single note E2 was = their competition for=20 Leslie's A-200. The tones are not exactly the same = but it is by far the=20 best choice for an Erie-Built. (Some PRR units = received E2's as replacements.)=20 DSX # 825241 as an FM with what is listed simply as a WABCO horn. The = sound clip=20 illustrates that this is a muliti-chime horn, = although I can't say for sure which model. DON'T BUY THIS ONE FOR A PRR = ERIE-BUILT.=20 Jack Consoli ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Larry Reynolds=20 To: PRR Talk=20 Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 3:48 PM Subject: [PRR] Fairbanks Morse=20 Gentlemen: =20 Now that Soundtraxx is making FM decoders in DSX, can anyone tell me = the correct horn for the Erie Builts and the C-Liners? =20 Thanks, =20 Larry ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C3338A.4E71F360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Larry,
 
As built, the FM C-Liners had Nathan = M-3 (three=20 chimes - all facing forward) horns,
the Erie Builts had Leslie A-200 single = note=20 horns.
 
As to SoundTrax's offerings, they=20 show:
 
DSX  # 825247 as an FM with Nathan = M3 - the=20 correct combination for C-liners
 
DSX  # 825244 as an FM with a = WABCO E2 - this=20 is the closest approximation to reality -
          &nbs= p;          =20 the Westinghouse Air Brake single note E2 was their competition for=20
          &nbs= p;          =20 Leslie's A-200. The tones are not exactly the same but it is by far=20 the 
          &nbs= p;  &nbsrds bsp;      =20 best choice for an Erie-Built. (Some PRR units received E2's as=20 replacements.) 
 
DSX  # 825241 as an FM = with what is=20 listed simply as a WABCO horn. The sound clip 
          &nbs= p;         =20 illustrates that this is a muliti-chime horn, although I can't say = for=20 sure
          &nbs= p;         =20 which model. DON'T BUY THIS ONE FOR A PRR ERIE-BUILT. 
 
 
Jack Consoli
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Larry = Reynolds=20
Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 = 3:48 PM
Subject: [PRR] Fairbanks Morse =

Gentlemen:
 
Now that Soundtraxx is making FM = decoders in DSX,=20 can anyone tell me the correct horn for the Erie Builts and the=20 C-Liners?
 
Thanks,
 
Larry
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C3338A.4E71F360-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] Soundtraxx FM Sound Decoders Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 22:14:15 -0400 Jerry, To add the H16-44 information to my previous post; these units appeared to have some varitey of a Leslie S3 3-chime horn. SoundTrax offers DSX # 825242 as an FM with Leslie S3 - 3 chime horn. This is what you'd want, at least as built. Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry @ Pennsy To: PRR-talk Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 7:47 PM Subject: [PRR] Soundtraxx FM Sound Decoders > While I was sleeping Soundtraxx released new sound decoders for FM > diesels. There are several horn variations... > > http://www.soundtraxx.com/dcc/sound.html#Fairbanks-Morse%20Diesel > > What horns are appropriate for the Pennsy's FM... > > ...C Liners? > > ...Erie builts? > > ...H16-44's? > > An FM LC090 is also available for N scale. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Ruesch" Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 01:24:51 -0500 Subject: [PRR] FOR SALE: PRR Calendars up for auction Several Pennsylvania Railroad calendars will be available at auction thiscoming Saturday, June 21, in Williamsport, Indiana. All calendars are in excellent condition or better, and represent the years 1930 1932 1933 1934 1936 1946 1947 and 1950-56. Preview opens at 8am, auction starts at 10am. Photos, absentee bidding, and other information is available at: http://catalogs.stoutauctions.com/ I recommend running a search for 'calendar'. ~~Pete Ruesch ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 02:30:38 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Subject: [PRR] Re: SKOOKILL Branch RR [PRR] At 12:47 AM 6/14/2003, Alex Charyna wrote: >All this talk about the Skookill Branch has finally gotten me into >publishing my plans and ideas online. Take a look if your interested, I >invite all constructive criticism. Looks like waaay too much fun! I'm in a similar phase of an N Scale layout of the Wilkes-Barre branch, and was wondering about through trains to W-B. I am including a working junction at Nescopeck, but I hadn't unearthed any good info on these trains except for a short mention of through LV coal drags. I'm especially interested in whether you find any info about coal or other freight trains; I'm in the process of trying to size the staging yard to support the junction. The Arranged Freight documents don't show mineral trains except as blocks in general freights, which implies to me that they were much more fluid (ie, we can use our imaginations) than merchandise. Cheers! Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 07:29:50 EDT Subject: [PRR] Caboose font --part1_17c.1c808f74.2c1f042e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/15/03 1:12:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Cabin # change. > From: "Doug Day" > Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 08:44:23 -0400 > > List, > > I've out this question on the Yahoo Pennsymodelers list before and I'm still > trying to find a supplier (I think Bowser has them too) for the same style > font and number size that are on the Bowser PRR cabin cars. I'd like to > change some of the numbers on them and need to know if anybody has these. > > Doug (OH) > Normally, these are the same lettering size and style for freight cars in whatever lettering standard is concurrent. Erase the whole number and replace it with Middle Division or other decals. Then the number size and "font" will be correct. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_17c.1c808f74.2c1f042e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/15/03 1= :12:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Cabin # change.
From: "Doug Day" <dougday@1st.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 08:44:23 -0400

List,

I've out this question on the Yahoo Pennsymodelers list before and I'm still=
trying to find a supplier (I think Bowser has them too) for the same style font and number size that are on the Bowser PRR cabin cars.  I'd like t= o
change some of the numbers on them and need to know if anybody has these.
Doug (OH)


Normally, these are the same lettering size and style for freight cars in wh= atever lettering standard is concurrent.

Erase the whole number and replace it with Middle Division or other decals.&= nbsp; Then the number size and "font" will be correct.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_17c.1c808f74.2c1f042e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 10:26:48 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Sound Decoders for Diesels From: Jerry Britton List: With apologies, I asked this in March of 2000. I know I got an answer, but it must have been off-list as I cannot find it in the archives. As to Soundtraxx decoders, which models are appropriate for which PRR locomotives? I am actually putting the results on a web page http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/soundtraxx.ws4d So, which locos get which horns for EMD: E7's, E8's, F3's, F7's, GP7's, GP9's Alco: PA1's, FA1's, FA2's, Century series, S series, RS series Here is what Soundtraxx offers: EMD 1st Generation with WABCO Airhorn EMD 1st Generation with Leslie S3 3-chime Airhorn EMD 1st Generation with Nathan 3-chime Airhorn EMD 1st Generation with WABCO E2 single chime Airhorn EMD 1st Generation with Nathan M5 5-chime Airhorn EMD 1st Generation with Nathan P3 3-chime Airhorn ALCO with WABCO 3-chime Airhorn ALCO with Leslie 3-chime Airhorn ALCO with Nathan 3-chime Airhorn ALCO with WABCO E2 single chime Airhorn ALCO with Nathan M5 5-chime Airhorn ALCO with Nathan P3 3-chime Airhorn EMD 2nd Generation with Leslie S5 5-chime Airhorn EMD 2nd Generation with Leslie S3 3-chime Airhorn EMD 2nd Generation with Nathan K3-chime Airhorn EMD 2nd Generation with Nathan K5 5-chime Airhorn EMD 2nd Generation with Nathan M3 3-chime Airhorn EMD 2nd Generation with Nathan P3 3-chime Airhorn ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 07:50:10 -0700 (PDT) From: CHUCK S Subject: [PRR] model painting question last week there was a thread re. bashable towers----and Wisc Central maroon was the choice for the window sash----also two color mixes (lt. Building and dark) were mentioned from the Crossings web site . what was the correct color for a tower lt.or dk . How about the trim ? thanks. chuck s /boston __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 10:07:46 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Sound Decoders for Diesels Jerry aks >So, which locos get which horns for > >EMD: E7's, E8's, F3's, F7's, GP7's, GP9's >Alco: PA1's, FA1's, FA2's, Century series, S series, RS series Add in there the GP30s Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith d usD., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] model painting question Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 12:08:56 -0400 Chuck, The light Building color is for the siding, etc. The Dark Building color is for all trim. Trim is anything from corner beading, doorframes, and gingerbread. For a good example go http://prrths-ncc.pennsyrr.com/ This is a picture of the restored New Freedom station which had paint matching the paint chips the PRRT&HS sells. Hope this helps. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 12:40:29 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Columbia-Wrightsville Bridge Burning From: Jerry Britton During the Civil War, Union troops burned the Wrightsville-Columbia bridge to prevent the Confederate troops from crossing the Susquehanna there. This immediately preceded the battle of Gettysburg. At the time this bridge carried the Columbia, York & Frederick (?) Railway, which was one of many that went bankrupt in the 1850's. If my "off the cuff" recollection is correct, this line went under PRR control while the other neighboring lines went into the Northern Central Railway. Anyway, I am told that on Saturday, June 28th, there will be a re-enactment/observance of the bridge burning. Sorry, I don't have any more details than that. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 13:33:13 -0400 From: Vince Miller Subject: [PRR] The New Keystone Got the new Keystone , and Its a Honey . Looks like the Subject is covered by the Cover . Good Job!!!! Thanks V Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 14:20:08 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] The New Keystone It will never fly! Look how cramped the space for passengers is on those aeroplanes. Why would anyone ever get off the those beautiful Pullmans on the PRR and get on one of those flying contraptions? ;-) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Vince Miller wrote: > Got the new Keystone , and Its a Honey . Looks like the Subject is > covered by the Cover . Good Job!!!! > Thanks V Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] The New Keystone Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 14:33:14 -0400 List, I got the Keystone last Thursday and read it cover to cover Friday in work. (It was slow for me. ) Does anyone know if a TAT Aerocar still exists? It would something interesting to see in person. Even neater if somebody modeled one. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 14:51:00 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] The New Keystone Vince. Thanx for your complements. Putting out a single subject issue is sometimes problematic for some people. Especially one with a lot of "non-railroad" subject matter like this one on aircraft. Glad you liked it I'll let Chuck know. Al -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Vince Miller Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 12:33 PM To: PRR Talk Subject: [PRR] The New Keystone Got the new Keystone , and Ial s Honey . Looks like the Subject is covered by the Cover . Good Job!!!! Thanks V Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] The New Keystone Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 15:05:56 -0400 Andy Miller wrote: "It will never fly! Look how cramped the space for passengers is on those aeroplanes. Why would anyone ever get off the those beautiful Pullmans on the PRR and get on one of those flying contraptions? ;-)" Especially when the inaugural flight crashed into the terminal! Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Morgan Bilbo" Subject: Re: [PRR] Sound Decoders for Diesels Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 14:22:23 -0500 Hi Y'all I had asked this type question last year or so when I was working on my F7 (EF15). The answers I got were conflicting. Someone said "Pennsy used Wabco exclusively". But didn't clarify Wabco or Wabco E2. Later on, I found that the Wabco E2 was a single horn, used on Shifters/Switchers. So, I assumed (and that made me the A..) that the Wabco/no E2 was used on the EF15. Wrong or Right? Another person emailed me that the Nathan was the correct horn. Again, no mention of whether Nathan 3-chime Airhorn, Nathan M5 5-chime Airhorn or Nathan P3 3-chime, So, I never finished the loco because I didn't know which decoder to buy. So, as you can ascertain here. I am extremely interested in the answers. And Jerry -- THANK YOU for working with us and getting this on your web site. One of the best web sites available! And for all the rest of you, this is the BEST message group. All IMHO of course. And by the way, have you seen the PRRTHS's new version of Message/Forum board? It's a big improvement over the old. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS # 1204, and a devout SPF! _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] The New Keystone Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 19:41:05 +0000 Could someone who is not in the midwest USPS equivalent of hell please tell us what the Keystone subjects are? We won't see ours for at least two more weeks. Thanks. > List, > > I got the Keystone last Thursday and read it cover to > cover Friday in work. (It was slow for me. ) > > Does anyone know if a TAT Aerocar still exists? It would > something interesting to see in person. Even neater if > somebody modeled one. > > John > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] The New Keystone Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 15:54:15 -0400 For those of you in the Hinterlands. The issue is about the PRR/TAT airlines 48 hour coast to coast passenger service. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 15:54:36 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] The New Keystone From: Jerry Britton I believe the entire issue is on the advent of rail/air travel. On Monday, June 16, 2003, at 03:41 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Could someone who is not in the midwest USPS equivalent of hell please > tell us > what the Keystone subjects are? We won't see ours for at least two > more > weeks. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 15:56:36 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] The New Keystone You can always see the latest Keystone cover and subjects by visiting the PRRT&HS website at" www.prrths.com and click on "National Society" and thence "The Keystone." Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 16:56:14 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] The New Keystone From: Jerry Britton On 6/16/03 3:56 PM, "Al Buchan" wrote: > You can always see the latest Keystone cover and subjects by visiting > the PRRT&HS website at" www.prrths.com and click on "National Society" > and thence "The Keystone." > Aw c'mon, Al, maybe now, but historically the Society's web site has been several years behind!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 16:59:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Sound Decoders for Diesels From: Jerry Britton On 6/16/03 10:26 AM, "Jerry Britton" wrote: > As to Soundtraxx decoders, which models are appropriate for which PRR > locomotives? > > I am actually putting the results on a web page > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/soundtraxx.ws4d > Page has been updated. Clarification requested on the Alco's...I'm told it's a WABCO, but is it the three chime or the E2? Additional feedback welcome! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Morgan Bilbo" Subject: Re: [PRR] Sound Decoders for Diesels Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 16:21:35 -0500 Hey Jerry Once again, a great service to us. I would never have guessed that a British whistle would be our beloved Banshee! Thanks a zillion Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS # 1204, and a devout SPF. >On 6/16/03 10:26 AM, "Jerry Britton" wrote: > >As to Soundtraxx decoders, which models are appropriate for which PRR >locomotives? > >I am actually putting the results on a web page > >http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/soundtraxx.ws4d > >Page hisheeen updated. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 17:28:57 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Sound Decoders for Diesels --------------090005060000050003030600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry: I thought I'd mention an excellent reference site for airhorns (not for what is on which locomotives, but on the airhorns themself)... It's five chime consultants and can be found at: http://atsf.railfan.net/airhorns/ They have digitized samples of most of these horns. Jeff Jerry Britton wrote: >On 6/16/03 10:26 AM, "Jerry Britton" wrote: > > > >>As to Soundtraxx decoders, which models are appropriate for which PRR >>locomotives? >> >>I am actually putting the results on a web page >> >>http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/soundtraxx.ws4d >> >> >> >Page has been updated. > >Clarification requested on the Alco's...I'm told it's a WABCO, but is it the >three chime or the E2? > >Additional feedback welcome! >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > >"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of >Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana >products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", >the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- >Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are >providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit >our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > --------------090005060000050003030600 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry:

I thought I'd mention an excellent reference site for airhorns (not for what is on which locomotives, but on the airhorns themself)...  

It's five chime consultants and can be found at:

http://atsf.railfan.net/airhorns/

They have digitized samples of most of these horns.

Jeff

Jerry Britton wrote:
On 6/16/03 10:26 AM, "Jerry Britton" <jerry@pennsyrr.com> wrote:

  
As to Soundtraxx decoders, which models are appropriate for which PRR
locomotives?

I am actually putting the results on a web page

http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/soundtraxx.ws4d

    
Page has been updated.

Clarification requested on the Alco's...I'm told it's a WABCO, but is it the
three chime or the E2?

Additional feedback welcome!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

--------------090005060000050003030600-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 17:41:02 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] The New Keystone RE: Aw c'mon, Al, maybe now, but historically the Society's web site has been several years behind!!! Not any more. Always is from now on! Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 18:15:03 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Sound Decoders for Diesels From: Jerry Britton On 6/16/03 5:21 PM, "Morgan Bilbo" wrote: > Hey Jerry > > Once again, a great service to us. I would never have guessed that a > British whistle would be our beloved Banshee! May not be exact, but several years ago lister Larry Reynolds invited a bunch of us to his layout in Allentown PA. Several thought it was as close as possible without being the real thing. Thanks (an no thanks!) to Larry for convincing many of us we couldn't live without sound! > > Thanks a zillion > > Morgan Bilbo > Ferroequinologist > PRRTHS # 1204, and a devout SPF. > >> On 6/16/03 10:26 AM, "Jerry Britton" wrote: >> >> As to Soundtraxx decoders, which models are appropriate for which PRR >> locomotives? >> >> I am actually putting the results on a web page >> >> http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/soundtraxx.ws4d >> >> Page has been updated. > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Morus/6 Jun 2003 18:48:21 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Whistle on HH1 From: Jerry Britton What type of whistle would have been on the class HH-1's that the PRR got from the N&W? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 19:09:53 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Whistle on HH1 From: Jerry Britton On 6/16/03 6:48 PM, "Jerry Britton" wrote: > What type of whistle would have been on the class HH-1's that the PRR got > from the N&W? Let me add to that... What's the chance that the HH-1's (2-8-8-2's from N&W) retained their N&W whistles and it was the same as the N&W 2-6-6-4 Class A's? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 19:29:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Whistle on HH1 Jerry, I guess you can call this a 50/50 guess but my "guess" is that they retained the N&W whistle. If they changed whistles from N&W to PRR type, they would have had to make a new designed valve to fit into the steam dome. Was this worth the trouble for the PRR shops to do for 5 locos? One could not just screw off the N&W whistle part from the valve and expect to attach a PRR whistle to the N&W Valve. At least that is what I am led to believe as I have learned the PRR Whistle had inside air inlets that were designed completely different than any other. There seems to be (I have only seen this many anyway) only 4-5 photos of these ex-N&W locos in PRR service and I don't think the views can help determine which whistle it has......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 19:59:34 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Whistle on HH1 From: Jerry Britton On 6/16/03 7:29 PM, "Gary Mittner" wrote: > I guess you can call this a 50/50 guess but my "guess" is that they > retained the N&W whistle. If they changed whistles from N&W to PRR type, > they would have had to make a new designed valve to fit into the steam > dome. Was this worth the trouble for the PRR shops to do for 5 locos? > One could not just screw off the N&W whistle part from the valve and > expect to attach a PRR whistle to the N&W Valve. At least that is what > I am led to believe as I have learned the PRR Whistle had inside air > inlets that were designed completely different than any other. There > seems to be (I have only seen this many anyway) only 4-5 photos of > these ex-N&W locos in PRR service and I don't think the views can help > determine which whistle it has......Gary > Okay, if that's "guess #1", then was the 2-8-8-2 whistle the same as the N&W put on their Class A's? To the point...Soundtraxx makes the Class A sound decoder! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 20:39:56 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: [PRR] N&W Whistles Jerry/all: I hate to break this to you Jerry, but N&W used different whistles in their Y6 class and A class locomotives. The A class (which soundtraxx makes) is a deep whistle. The Y6B (which PRR acquired) had a medium range whistle. There is a digital copy of the Y6B whistle on the QSI site (www.qsindustries.com) Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 20:53:39 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] N&W Whistles From: Jerry @ Pennsy Thanks and no thanks all at once! On Monday, June 16, 2003, at 08:39 PM, Jeff Warner wrote: > I hate to break this to you Jerry, but N&W used different whistles in > their Y6 class and A class locomotives. The A class (which soundtraxx > makes) is a deep whistle. The Y6B (which PRR acquired) had a medium > range whistle. > There is a digital copy of the Y6B whistle on the QSI site > (www.qsindustries.com) > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon Greiger" Subject: Re: [PRR] N&W Whistles Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 20:59:07 -0400 Gang: According to the Staufer PP II, page 25, the PRR bought "6" not five "Y3" Locos. While I'm not an N&W fan, I do know that the Y6b, had a much different tender than the Y3. I wanted to model the HH-1 in "O" Scale but I am not good enough at scratch building to attempt the Y3 tender. Finally, I acquired an N&W y3 and did what the PRR did, slapped a Keystone on the front, change the numbere and painted the tender PRR. All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Warner" To: "Britton, Jerry" ; "PRR Talk List" Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 8:39 PM Subject: [PRR] N&W Whistles > Jerry/all: > > I hate to break this to you Jerry, but N&W used different whistles in > their Y6 class and A class locomotives. The A class (which soundtraxx > makes) is a deep whistle. The Y6B (which PRR acquired) had a medium > range whistle. > > There is a digital copy of the Y6B whistle on the QSI site > (www.qsindustries.com) > > > Jeff Warner > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 21:46:13 -0400 From: bearcreekwest@netscape.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Sound Decoders for Diesels Were the applications for horns listed "as delivered?" In Greg Martin's article on detailing an FA2 for PRR, he used a Nathan 3 chime. Looking at the Wither's book, Volume six, the FA seems to wear a wide variety of horn configurations. Don Luke Tucson, AZ Jerry Britton wrote: >On 6/16/03 10:26 AM, "Jerry Britton" wrote: > >> As to Soundtraxx decoders, which models are appropriate for which PRR >> locomotives? >> >> I am actually putting the results on a web page >> >> http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/soundtraxx.ws4d >> >Page has been updated. > >Clarification requested on the Alco's...I'm told it's a WABCO, but is it the >three chime or the E2? > >Additional feedback welcome! >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > >"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of >Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana >products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", >the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- >Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are >providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit >our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > __________________________________________________________________ McAfee VirusScan Online from the Netscape Network. Comprehensive protection for your entire computer. Get your free trial today! http://channels.netscape.com/ns/computing/mcafee/index.jsp?promo=393397 Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 free of charge. Download Now! http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] Sound Decoders for Diesels Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 23:54:56 -0400 Morgan, You didn't get a whole lot of real clean information to your request. Two problems: -horns were changed as needed as the units aged and thus any unit could end up with almost any type of horn later in life - so you need to specify what time period you are asking about. -different groups of F's were equipped with different horns as built. To make this simple, for your modeling, which specific numbered unit or units are you interested in? Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: Morgan Bilbo To: ; Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 3:22 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Sound Decoders for Diesels > Hi Y'all > > I had asked this type question last year or so when I was working on my F7 > (EF15). The answers I got were conflicting. Someone said "Pennsy used > Wabco exclusively". But didn't clarify Wabco or Wabco E2. Later on, I > found that the Wabco E2 was a single horn, used on Shifters/Switchers. So, > I assumed (and that made me the A..) that the Wabco/no E2 was used on the > EF15. Wrong or Right? Another person emailed me that the Nathan was the > correct horn. Again, no mention of whether Nathan 3-chime Airhorn, Nathan > M5 5-chime Airhorn or Nathan P3 3-chime, So, I never finished the loco > because I didn't know which decoder to buy. > > So, as you can ascertain here. I am extremely interested in the answers. > > And Jerry -- THANK YOU for working with us and getting this on your web > site. One of the best web sites available! > > And for all the rest of you, this is the BEST message group. All IMHO of > course. > > And by the way, have you seen the PRRTHS's new version of Message/Forum > board? It's a big improvement over the old. > > Morgan Bilbo > Ferroequinologist > PRRTHS # 1204, and a devout SPF! > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] The New Keystone Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 07:56:51 -0400 Somebody musta goosed the U.S. Mule. My copy of the Keystone made it all the way to rainy Florida yesterday. Great article on the tin gooses. The guy who is writing the book on the same subject will have a tough sell to do it better when he finishes. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Al Buchan Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 5:41 PM To: 'PRR-Talk' Subject: RE: [PRR] The New Keystone RE: Aw c'mon, Al, maybe now, but historically the Society's web site has been several years behind!!! Not any more. Always is from now on! Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Morgan Bilbo" Subject: Re: [PRR] Sound Decoders for Diesels Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 06:39:55 -0500 Greetings Jack. Actually, my modeling has changed over the years. Originally, I wanted to restrict my modeling years to 1935 through 1945. But then, the LL PP1 FM C-Liner appeared. I bought it, and then remembered it was 1950. So, I guess I consider my "era" to be stretched to 1950. (And I can always use "modelers license" LOL ) So, to get to the point, my EF15 would be as early an F7 as can be. What year was the first F7 placed on the PRR? But then, that was when they bought A-B-B-A sets, and I only have/want one A unit. So, what year was the earliest they bought A units singly? That would be about when my EF15 would have an airhorn for. That's why I was "assuming" a WABCO/no E2. So maybe this is indeed correct, and the additional info re Nathan's was misleading. Is this clear? And thanks for your help. Morgan Bilbo, Ferroequinologist, PRRTHS # 1204, and SPF! >From: "jconsoli" >To: "Morgan Bilbo" >CC: >Subject: Re: [PRR] Sound Decoders for Diesels >Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 23:54:56 -0400 > >Morgan, > >You didn't get a whole lot of real clean information to your request. > >Two problems: >-horns were changed as needed as the units aged and thus >any unit could end up with almost any type of horn later in life - so you >need to >specify what time period you are asking about. >-different groups of F's were equipped with different horns as built. > >To make this simple, for your modeling, which specific numbered unit >or units are you interested in? > >Jack Consoli _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Brill Motorcars Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 13:35:08 +0000 I was reading through the 9/86 issue of Trains last night. There is an article by Donald Smith on #8666 one of the last five Brill motorcars purchased by the PRR in 1930 and how it finaly would up at the Black RIver and Western. He states in the article that these were capable of pulling up to four trailers but it cut the top speed to 45MPH. Some questions this raises: 1. Anybody ever seen evidence of the PRR pulling trailers with motorcars? 2. P54's, P70's? 3. He also states that these were the last of 65 the PRR owned which I found to be an astronomical number. I assume all were branch line candidates. Anybody have any idea how far roaming these things were or how many were on the roster at any given time? 4. Was there a central maintenance base like diesels where they had to be returned for inspections? Thanks ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Brill Motorcars Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 08:57:27 -0500 From: > 1. Anybody ever seen evidence of the PRR pulling trailers with motorcars? > 2. P54's, P70's? > 3. He also states that these were the last of 65 the PRR owned which I found to > be an astronomical number. I assume all were branch line candidates. Anybody > have any idea how far roaming these things were or how many were on the roster > at any given time? > 4. Was there a central maintenance base like diesels where they had to be > returned for inspections? Quick answers, Norm (I'm rushing to work and trying to clean up email problems and am in Yahoohell, yadayada): 1. All kinds of evidence. Pennsy Power III has whole chapter on gas-electrics (really oil-electrics for most of their existence). Many photos with a trailer, though I can't remember one with more than one. I'll send you the one again from Denver library of the one near Illinois-Indiana state line by this evening. I've also got some purchased prints. 2. Yes, and then some. 3. They ranged from Chicago to the Atlantic Seaboard. Southbend,Logansport, Grand Rapids, etc, etc. 4. Doubt it, but I'll pass that on to someone who knows. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 09:27:13 -0500 From: "Stephen Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Brill Motorcars Norm asked: Some questions this raises: 1. Anybody ever seen evidence of the PRR pulling trailers with motorcars? 2. P54's, P70's? 1. Many times on the Freehold and Jamesburg Agricultural Railroad (the = branch from Trenton to Red Bank) during the 50's, replacing steam. 2. Either one, but I didn't know the difference between a P54 and P70 at = the time. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 09:23:31 -0500 (CDT) From: Steve Hoxie Subject: Re: Re: [PRR] RE: BLI M1a Kris asked-- Can someone enlighten me and describe what a recirculator fan on a fire box is. Where's it at? What's it look like and what does it do? Hi Kris--Nobody responded so let me give it a try. Any corrections welcome! I think the correct terminology is "recirculators" without the word "fan". On an M1b at least two of these can be seen on the firebox sides just above the walkway. They look like what Precision Scale calls "cleanout (or washout) plugs". I haven't seen them on any other PRR engines. I am not sure of their function, but from the name and location, it would seem to have something to do with recirculating the hot water which has found its way into the legs of the firebox. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 13:53:55 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Future PRRT&HS Conventions From: Jerry Britton With the 2005 and 2006 conventions already slated for Camp Hill, Pa., I figured the following would occur, in one order or the other... The 2005 convention will be hosted by the National organization. The 2006 convention will be hosted by the Northern Central Chapter. This information came from the PRRT&HS web site. I had not seen it previously in an eNews announcement nor from the NC chapter that I am a member of. Having organized the layout tours in Camp Hill for 2001 and 2002, I can tell you that there will be some exciting new opportunities for 2005 and later! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:15:43 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] PRR-Modeling Not to knock Dominic, but, maybe it might is not a very positive way to start a statement... As I have been reminded modeling is not in the charter of the historical society... and I understand that. However; we as modelers could create our own "group" anytime we want. But, the positive direction I have seen members within the society take over the past year have changed my feelings about the society as I have express in private email's to Al Buchan of late. Let me remind all modelers here that without direct contact with Bob Johnson and his access to resources to the historical society we would not have the incredibly accurate Walt hers R50b released most recently. Perhaps I don't thank him enough for stepping to the plate as often as I should. Thanks again Bob! There is more in the pipeline, like a B60b and more. Not just Walthers is helping us Pennsy Modelers there are other and I will continue to plant the seeds but it all takes time... I guess what I am trying to express is that I see a common thread between the historical side and the modeling side and I am personally excited to see the change in and I think that is what Al has been trying to show us. It's finely sinking in... Thanks AL... 3^) Perhaps there is something I can do to help... Greg Martin >Maybe it might be time for the Penn Soc. to consider a "special" type of chapter. Not a "physical" one, like Philly, Chicago or Penn Texas. Maybe a chapter just for PRR modelers. There, they can publish modeling articles, on paper, or on the internet... > > Or, place the modeling stuff on the Society Web page. Have it set up so that you have to be a paid member of the Soc. to gain access. > > Dominic Mazoch ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] PRR-Modeling Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:43:02 -0400 >From the prospective of a senior, but not yet old-timer, I think that the influx of the younger members, many who never saw the PRR but are striving to model pieces of it is saving the PRRTHS from being an "old mens club". The questions of how, what, where and why by this new generation is bringing forth "facts" from some older people who are having the memories jogged and their senior moments eclipsed. Even if you are not a modeler, the dedication of this new generation is making the society a much stronger and vibrant entity. Just as a "new broom sweeps clean", the new atmosphere is most refreshing. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 4:15 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] PRR-Modeling > Not to knock Dominic, but, maybe it might is not a very positive way to start a statement... > > As I have been reminded modeling is not in the charter of the historical society... and I understand that. However; we as modelers could create our own "group" anytime we want. But, the positive direction I have seen members within the society take over the past year have changed my feelings about the society as I have express in private email's to Al Buchan of late. Let me remind all modelers here that without direct contact with Bob Johnson and his access to resources to the historical society we would not have the incredibly accurate Walt hers R50b released most recently. Perhaps I don't thank him enough for stepping to the plate as often as I should. Thanks again Bob! There is more in the pipeline, like a B60b and more. Not just Walthers is helping us Pennsy Modelers there are other and I will continue to plant the seeds but it all takes time... > > I guess what I am trying to express is that I see a common thread between the historical side and the modeling side and I am personally excited to see the change in and I think that is what Al has been trying to show us. It's finely sinking in... Thanks AL... 3^) > > Perhaps there is something I can do to help... > > Greg Martin > > >Maybe it might be time for the Penn Soc. to consider a "special" type of chapter. Not a "physical" one, like Philly, Chicago or Penn Texas. Maybe a chapter just for PRR modelers. There, they can publish modeling articles, on paper, or on the internet... > > > > Or, place the modeling stuff on the Society Web page. Have it set up so that you have to be a paid member of the Soc. to gain access. > > > > Dominic Mazoch > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:14:24 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR: question about stock cars From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" We had a discussion a week ago on Railspot about stock cars and I got to wondering how many of the thousands that were manufactured were still in existence. From railspotters I got locations for about 8, some in museums, some in storage, one in an open field being used as hay barns. Do those of you in PRR land know of any? Does not have to be PRR. I'm guessing there are less than 50 extant in the U.S. Is that a good guess? Don Harper Marine Lab Texas A&M Univ. at Galveston Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] PRR-Modeling Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 18:02:30 -0400 Greg and List, I can totally agree with you on that point. The historical members and the modeling members have a symbiotic relationship within the society. Once the Lewistown archives have been fully catalogged (Maybe in the next Mellenium) I can predict this relationship growing even more. You have highlighted the R50b that Walthers put out. I can remember when I helped my dad take the measurements for the, at a that time, decrepit New Freedom station. Fortunately, through my dads and others resoursefulness not only did we get a great PRR prototype station, but we co-operated with American Model Builders to raise funds to restore New Freedom station to its former glory. We have to talk with manufactures and form a relationship like this where it helps both ends of the spectrum. This doesn't restrict this to just locomotives and rolling stock. Valuable information can be gained from former PRR Employees to be used on layouts. Evern if someone has a special story, you could incorporate this piece of history into a scene. Well, i'll get off my soapbox for now. I hope everyone understands what i'm getting at. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 20:15:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] NY-Pitts Subway at ZOO interlocking Greetings, When East-West freight trains operated through "Zoo" interlocking, was it normal for the trains to use the NY-Pitts Subway or did the freights use the east west "Jersey Running Trks"? Also were high cars, (TOFC,auto racks,etc), restricted from the subway? I have seen photos of freights exiting the subway BUT I've never seen any TrucTrains in the subway. Thanks in advance...... Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] Sound Decoders for Diesels Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 22:35:41 -0400 Morgan, The first F7's began arriving on the PRR in March 1949. The 1949 units were purchased as classes EF4, EF3 and EF2 (4-unit, 3-unit, & 2-unit) sets. Their classification was later changed to EF15a - not EF15- which were F3's. (They only ever purchased one unit intended specifically for single-unit service, that was #9666A in February 1950, with a Nathan M3 3-chime horn.) For the 1949 F7's you want to use the Soundtrax WABCO E2 for their single note horn. Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: Morgan Bilbo To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 7:39 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Sound Decoders for Diesels > Greetings Jack. > > Actually, my modeling has changed over the years. Originally, I wanted to > restrict my modeling years to 1935 through 1945. But then, the LL PP1 FM > C-Liner appeared. I bought it, and then remembered it was 1950. So, I > guess I consider my "era" to be stretched to 1950. (And I can always use > "modelers license" LOL ) > > So, to get to the point, my EF15 would be as early an F7 as can be. What > year was the first F7 placed on the PRR? But then, that was when they > bought A-B-B-A sets, and I only have/want one A unit. So, what year was the > earliest they bought A units singly? That would be about when my EF15 would > have an airhorn for. That's why I was "assuming" a WABCO/no E2. So maybe > this is indeed correct, and the additional info re Nathan's was misleading. > > Is this clear? And thanks for your help. > > Morgan Bilbo, Ferroequinologist, PRRTHS # 1204, and SPF! > > >From: "jconsoli" > >To: "Morgan Bilbo" > >CC: > >Subject: Re: [PRR] Sound Decoders for Diesels > >Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 23:54:56 -0400 > > > >Morgan, > > > >You didn't get a whole lot of real clean information to your request. > > > >Two problems: > >-horns were changed as needed as the units aged and thus > >any unit could end up with almost any type of horn later in life - so you > >need to > >specify what time period you are asking about. > >-different groups of F's were equipped with different horns as built. > > > >To make this simple, for your modeling, which specific numbered unit > >or units are you interested in? > > > >Jack Consoli > > _________________________________________________________________ > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Sound Decoders for Diesels Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 08:19:41 -0400 OK Jack, The 2-unit sets. Were they A-B or A-A? Thanks. Chris -----Original Message----- From: jconsoli [mailto:jconsoli@paonline.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 10:36 PM To: Morgan Bilbo Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Sound Decoders for Diesels Morgan, The first F7's began arriving on the PRR in March 1949. The 1949 units were purchased as classes EF4, EF3 and EF2 (4-unit, 3-unit, & 2-unit) sets. Their classification was later changed to EF15a - not EF15- which were F3's. (They only ever purchased one unit intended specifically for single-unit service, that was #9666A in February 1950, with a Nathan M3 3-chime horn.) For the 1949 F7's you want to use the Soundtrax WABCO E2 for their single note horn. Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: Morgan Bilbo To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 7:39 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Sound Decoders for Diesels > Greetings Jack. > > Actually, my modeling has changed over the years. Originally, I wanted to > restrict my modeling years to 1935 through 1945. But then, the LL PP1 FM > C-Liner appeared. I bought it, and then remembered it was 1950. So, I > guess I consider my "era" to be stretched to 1950. (And I can always use > "modelers license" LOL ) > > So, to get to the point, my EF15 would be as early an F7 as can be. What > year was the first F7 placed on the PRR? But then, that was when they > bought A-B-B-A sets, and I only have/want one A unit. So, what year was the > earliest they bought A units singly? That would be about when my EF15 would > have an airhorn for. That's why I was "assuming" a WABCO/no E2. So maybe > this is indeed correct, and the additional info re Nathan's was misleading. > > Is this clear? And thanks for your help. > > Morgan Bilbo, Ferroequinologist, PRRTHS # 1204, and SPF! > > >From: "jconsoli" > >To: "Morgan Bilbo" > >CC: > >Subject: Re: [PRR] Sound Decoders for Diesels > >Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 23:54:56 -0400 > > > >Morgan, > > > >You didn't get a whole lot of real clean information to your request. > > > >Two problems: > >-horns were changed as needed as the units aged and thus > >any unit could end up with almost any type of horn later in life - so you > >need to > >specify what time period you are asking about. > >-different groups of F's were equipped with different horns as built. > > > >To make this simple, for your modeling, which specific numbered unit > >or units are you interested in? > > > >Jack Consoli > > _________________________________________________________________ > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] question Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 11:55:03 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C33590.74581C00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Would anyone on the Net have the address of the Brotherhood of Railway = Carmen? I'd like to write to them for information and data. leeprrswitchkey@msn.com ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C33590.74581C00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Would anyone on the Net have the address of the Brotherhood of = Railway=20 Carmen?
 
I'd like to write to them for information and data.
 
 
leeprrswitchkey@msn.com
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C33590.74581C00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Brill motorcar question Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 16:13:35 +0000 So having found out that these were fairly common on the PRR, which is a shock, what is the likelyhood of one having operated out of a major terminal in Philadelphia? Did one ever run out of 30th st. or Broad st.? Somehow the thought of one of these things rumbling up the corridor to Frankford Junction has great appeal. Can you picture the looks on the station platform at N. Phl. expecting a G and P70's on a clocker and having one of those roll in instead? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 14:21:40 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] K's at Buckeye In a message dated 6/18/03 1:12:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: PRR: question about stock cars > From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" > Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:14:24 -0500 > > We had a discussion a week ago on Railspot about stock cars and I got to > wondering how many of the thousands that were manufactured were still in > existence. From railspotters I got locations for about 8, some in museums, > some in storage, one in an open field being used as hay barns. Do those of > you in PRR land know of any? Does not have to be PRR. I'm guessing there > are less than 50 extant in the U.S. Is that a good guess? > > > > Don Harper > Don, Your question reminds me of an allied one that I'd like to ask the group... Back in the 1970's, I was visiting Buckeye Yard in Columbus, and saw 8 Pennsy stock cars go over the hump. Although this was long before I could identify car classes, it appeared that two classes were represented, 4 cars of each (naturally, I had no camera and wasn't quick enough on the uptake to catch numbers). At least one of these classes was round roof (they may both have been). Considering the year, I thought it was unusual that the PRR still had stock cars (I'd never noticed any before in western Ohio). So at my next opportunity, I looked up PRR stock cars in the current Equipment Register I found in a library. IF I read this listing correctly, it indicated there were only 12 PRR stock cars left, in two series.and I had seen ALL FOUR of one series, and FOUR of EIGHT in the other. I've never found anybody who knows much about the last years of PRR's stock cars, and now wonder if this happened as I remember. Certainly I can remember being shocked at seeing stock cars, still with dirty straw in them, showing up in Pennsy markings and literally in my back yard. I suppose my question is, if I really read the ORER as above, what month's issue might it be? Penn Central still lists 144 stock cars (K9a, K11, K9, K9b, K12, and K9 classes) in October 1970. By April 1975, the PRR listing has only three cars... K9a 130010 K9a 130026 K9 131033 Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 14:21:40 EDT Subject: [PRR] K's at Buckeye --part1_1e.13b535dd.2c2207b4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/18/03 1:12:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: PRR: question about stock cars > From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" > Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:14:24 -0500 > > We had a discussion a week ago on Railspot about stock cars and I got to > wondering how many of the thousands that were manufactured were still in > existence. From railspotters I got locations for about 8, some in museums, > some in storage, one in an open field being used as hay barns. Do those of > you in PRR land know of any? Does not have to be PRR. I'm guessing there > are less than 50 extant in the U.S. Is that a good guess? > > > > Don Harper > Don, Your question reminds me of an allied one that I'd like to ask the group... Back in the 1970's, I was visiting Buckeye Yard in Columbus, and saw 8 Pennsy stock cars go over the hump. Although this was long before I could identify car classes, it appeared that two classes were represented, 4 cars of each (naturally, I had no camera and wasn't quick enough on the uptake to catch numbers). At least one of these classes was round roof (they may both have been). Considering the year, I thought it was unusual that the PRR still had stock cars (I'd never noticed any before in western Ohio). So at my next opportunity, I looked up PRR stock cars in the current Equipment Register I found in a library. IF I read this listing correctly, it indicated there were only 12 PRR stock cars left, in two series.and I had seen ALL FOUR of one series, and FOUR of EIGHT in the other. I've never found anybody who knows much about the last years of PRR's stock cars, and now wonder if this happened as I remember. Certainly I can remember being shocked at seeing stock cars, still with dirty straw in them, showing up in Pennsy markings and literally in my back yard. I suppose my question is, if I really read the ORER as above, what month's issue might it be? Penn Central still lists 144 stock cars (K9a, K11, K9, K9b, K12, and K9 classes) in October 1970. By April 1975, the PRR listing has only three cars... K9a 130010 K9a 130026 K9 131033 Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_1e.13b535dd.2c2207b4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/18/03 1:12:35 AM Eastern Daylight= Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: PRR:  question ab= out stock cars
From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" <harperd@tamug.tamu.edu>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:14:24 -0500

We had a discussion a week ago on Railspot about stock cars and I got to wondering how many of the thousands that were manufactured were still in
existence.  From railspotters I got locations for about 8, some in muse= ums,
some in storage, one in an open field being used as hay barns.  Do thos= e of
you in PRR land know of any?  Does not have to be PRR.  I'm guessi= ng there
are less than 50 extant in the U.S.  Is that a good guess?



Don Harper


Don,

Your question reminds me of an allied one that I'd like to ask the group...<= BR>
Back in the 1970's, I was visiting Buckeye Yard in Columbus, and saw 8 Penns= y stock cars go over the hump.  Although this was long before I could i= dentify car classes, it appeared that two classes were represented, 4 cars o= f each (naturally, I had no camera and wasn't quick enough on the uptake to=20= catch numbers).  At least one of these classes was round roof (they may= both have been).

Considering the year, I thought it was unusual that the PRR still had stock=20= cars (I'd never noticed any before in western Ohio).  So at my next opp= ortunity, I looked up PRR stock cars in the current Equipment Register I fou= nd in a library.  IF I read this listing correctly, it indicated there=20= were only 12 PRR stock cars left, in two series.and I had seen ALL FOUR of o= ne series, and FOUR of EIGHT in the other.

I've never found anybody who knows much about the last years of PRR's stock=20= cars, and now wonder if this happened as I remember.  Certainly I can r= emember being shocked at seeing stock cars, still with dirty straw in them,=20= showing up in Pennsy markings and literally in my back yard.

I suppose my question is, if I really read the ORER as above, what month's i= ssue might it be?  Penn Central still lists 144 stock cars (K9a, K11, K= 9, K9b, K12, and K9 classes) in October 1970.  By April 1975, the PRR l= isting has only three cars...
K9a 130010
K9a 130026
K9   131033


Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_1e.13b535dd.2c2207b4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 00:11:54 GMT Subject: [PRR] Moter Car 4666 From: Dominic Mazoch Bring on anything about the 4666. I bought an MTH RailKing model of one. Looks like a self-propelled interurban. I have seen pictures of a motor car with 2 trailers. Dominic Mazoch ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry Fitch" Subject: [PRR] PRR Tool Car by WSM Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 21:46:51 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C335E3.20475560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings to the list members. Does anyone have any prototype information that they could share with me about the HO scale PRR Tool Car produced in Japan for West Side Models? It appears to perhaps have a passenger car lineage but I am not familiar with it enough to make an ID on the car. I have a photo off line if that would be helpful. Thanks, Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C335E3.20475560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greetings to the=20 list members.
 
Does = anyone have any=20 prototype information that they could share with me
about = the HO scale=20 PRR Tool Car produced in Japan for West Side Models?
 
It = appears to=20 perhaps have a passenger car lineage but I am not = familiar
with = it enough to=20 make an ID on the car.  I have a photo off line if that would be=20 helpful.
 
Thanks,
 
Harry=20 Fitch
 
prrk4s@msn.com =
 
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C335E3.20475560-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] Sound Decoders for Diesels Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 22:04:04 -0400 Chris, Yes. Some of each, but mostly A-A sets. Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: Chany, Christopher To: 'jconsoli' Cc: Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 8:19 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Sound Decoders for Diesels > > OK Jack, > > The 2-unit sets. Were they A-B or A-A? > > Thanks. > > Chris > > > -----Original Message----- > From: jconsoli [mailto:jconsoli@paonline.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 10:36 PM > To: Morgan Bilbo > Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Sound Decoders for Diesels > > > Morgan, > > The first F7's began arriving on the PRR in March 1949. The 1949 units were > purchased > as classes EF4, EF3 and EF2 (4-unit, 3-unit, & 2-unit) sets. Their > classification was later > changed to EF15a - not EF15- which were F3's. (They only ever purchased one > unit intended > specifically for single-unit service, that was #9666A in February 1950, with > a Nathan M3 > 3-chime horn.) For the 1949 F7's you want to use the Soundtrax WABCO E2 for > their single > note horn. > > Jack Consoli > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Morgan Bilbo > To: > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 7:39 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Sound Decoders for Diesels > > > > Greetings Jack. > > > > Actually, my modeling has changed over the years. Originally, I wanted to > > restrict my modeling years to 1935 through 1945. But then, the LL PP1 FM > > C-Liner appeared. I bought it, and then remembered it was 1950. So, I > > guess I consider my "era" to be stretched to 1950. (And I can always use > > "modelers license" LOL ) > > > > So, to get to the point, my EF15 would be as early an F7 as can be. What > > year was the first F7 placed on the PRR? But then, that was when they > > bought A-B-B-A sets, and I only have/want one A unit. So, what year was > the > > earliest they bought A units singly? That would be about when my EF15 > would > > have an airhorn for. That's why I was "assuming" a WABCO/no E2. So maybe > > this is indeed correct, and the additional info re Nathan's was > misleading. > > > > Is this clear? And thanks for your help. > > > > Morgan Bilbo, Ferroequinologist, PRRTHS # 1204, and SPF! > > > > >From: "jconsoli" > > >To: "Morgan Bilbo" > > >CC: > > >Subject: Re: [PRR] Sound Decoders for Diesels > > >Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 23:54:56 -0400 > > > > > >Morgan, > > > > > >You didn't get a whole lot of real clean information to your request. > > > > > >Two problems: > > >-horns were changed as needed as the units aged and thus > > >any unit could end up with almost any type of horn later in life - so you > > >need to > > >specify what time period you are asking about. > > >-different groups of F's were equipped with different horns as built. > > > > > >To make this simple, for your modeling, which specific numbered unit > > >or units are you interested in? > > > > > >Jack Consoli > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 21:19:56 -0500 (CDT) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Tool Car by WSM On Wed, 18 Jun 2003, Harry Fitch wrote: > Does anyone have any prototype information that they could share with me > about the HO scale PRR Tool Car produced in Japan for West Side Models? > > It appears to perhaps have a passenger car lineage but I am not familiar > with it enough to make an ID on the car. I have a photo off line if that > would be helpful. I believe you are refferring to class TA, a nice 3/4 view of whihc is shown on page 423 of PP III. The caption reads "This photograph of toll cat 60, class TA, taken at Altoona in 1939 is a mystery picture. Link and pin coupler and lack of air brakes would indicate the ca was built about 1870, but this is not a pre-1870 car. We would guess it to be of passenger car (head end) origin circa 1890. Perhaps it was restored for some kind of special exhibit like the 1939 World's Fair. We just don't know" A photo of a similar car is seen on p109 of the PRR Color Guide 3. That car is seen on a wreck train in Waynesboro PA, in grey paint in the company of baldwin and EMD (I think) diesasels. This car differs from teh one in PP3 in that it has an end cupola, rather than a centered cupola. The neat thing about this photo is that it indicates cars of this class continued in service past WWII!! Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: [PRR] Signals on the Mattoon Decatur main Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 23:39:21 -0500 I recently purchased a 18" x 13' PRR 8/31/1961 drawing titled "Decatur Switching District", so I am resurrecting this old message. At the south end of the district (or east for PRR), the track is labeled as ICRR to Mattoon/PRR to Terre Haute. At the north end, the track is labeled ICRR to Bloomington/PRR to Peoria. According to PRR ETT #7, effective 10/29/67, the joint ICRR/PRR track began at Mt. Zion and ended at Maroa. According to the ETT, the PRR also shared tracks with the N&W and P&PU near Peoria. There is a note on the drawing that states "Illinois Central Railroad Co. timetable and operating rules are in effect for this area." There is another note that says "Speed Limits: See I.C.R.R. T.T.S.I. 101". The drawing does show signal locations and arms. I hope this sheds some light on the PRR/ICRR Decatur situation. Andy Cich Savoy, IL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 03:36:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Philip Taylor Subject: [PRR] Broadway Ltd GG1 The Broadway Ltd GG1 is a reality. I saw a pre-production unit last night. The detailing was not complete but the drive and sound unit were great. It ran flawlessly and the sound was amazing. It will be worth the wait for those who are willing to wait. Phil Taylor ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 08:06:28 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Moter Car 4666 >Bring on anything about the 4666. I bought an MTH RailKing model of one. >Looks like a self-propelled interurban. > >I have seen pictures of a motor car with 2 trailers. > > >Dominic Mazoch Dominic, A quick search of my archives and I found the following email from Rob Schoenberg: >They were definitly converted to oil as the diagrams on my site lists the 4666 >as OEG415 with a Hamilton 6 cylinder enginer w/ 425 horsepower. >elevation: >http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=oeg415.gif&sel=gaselectri >c >floorplan: >http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=oeg415_fp.gif&sel=gaselec >tric " Hank Mummert also had this to say regarding my questions about #4666. > I found the issue of Trains with the info on 4666. > Its in the September ,1986 issue. I've typed in the info from > Trains with a few comments from myself. > > PRR order No. 22848 January 20th,1930 > for five J.G.Brill Co. Model 660 Gas Electrics. > PRR class GEG 415 No.s 4666-4670 > 4666 was delivered on June 20th,1930 > weight: 139,400 Pds. > lenth 75 feet , 66 passengers > powered by a 415 HP Hall-Scott gasoline engine > capable of pulling four 50 ton trailers (reducing top speed > from 60 MPH to 43 MPH) > 4666 and cars were heated by a oil fired Petersmith-Otis boiler > > PRR owned 65 cars at that time. > One of its first assignments was on the Baltimore-Parkton,Md. locals. > In 1942 it was repowered with a new inline 4 cycle, 6 cylinder > Hamilton diesel rated at 425 HP (at 950 RPM) > it has two starting motors fed by the 32-volt battery system. > The engine is directly connected to a self-ventilated 600-volt > DC General Electric DT-524 generator,rebuilt by Westinghouse > in April 1958. Its rating is 560 amps and a 1 hour rating of 650 > amps. The main generator supplies electricity to the cars > two GE Model 710-A 600 volt DC,220 HP traction motors, > one mounted on each axle of the power truck through single > reduction gears,with 20 teeth on the motor pinion and 56 > teeth on the axle gear. The motors have a continuous rating > of 220 amps and a 1/2 rating of 340 amps. > > Both diesels operate on No. 2 fuel oil,carried in two 200-gallon > tanks.The air brake system employs Westinghouse AML equipment,with > a M31c engineman's valve and a L-3 triple valve. > There are two 16 X 72 " air reservoirs; the brake cylinder is 18 X 32" > Air for brakes,horns,pneumatically-operated bells and other > controls are supplied by two compressors,one powered by the > auxiliary engine's 32 volt generator and the other by the main > 600 volt generator. > > As delivered the car was fitted with Union Switch and Signal > continuous inductive cab signals in both cabs. > > The car was then reclassified as class OAG415 > As re-engined it weighs 142,000 Pds.,with 93,400 Pds > on the power truck and 48,600 Pds. on the trailer truck. > It has 17,000 Pds. Max. tractive forcesop.100 Pds. Cont.tractive force > Max. Speed is 60 MPH > All wheels are 36" Diam. > > The 4666 is a bidirectional creature,its controls of throttle,reverse, > generator and diesel engine controls,air brakes,horn,bell,sanders, > and lights being located at each end. The design of the electrical > transmission requires an auxiliary engine,currently a constant-speed > 2400 RPM,30 HP, 4-cycle, 4 cylinder Waukesha Model 180 > located in the engineroom. The Waukesha powers a 220-amp., > 40-volt auxiliary generator which in turn,provides power for > battery charging,some control circuits,lighting,the 32-volt > air compressor and excitation for the main generator. > Also a small 12-volt DC generator which charges the > 12-volt battery used for starting it. > > After WWII it was operated in New Jersey with monthly > inspections and repairs handled at Morrisville,Pa.(post 1959 ?) > (There is also a June 4th,1959 picture of it at Parkton,Md. > in the Trains article, so i would assume that it worked both > areas of the PRR over the years.Parkton local > service ended in 1959.) > The car closed out local passenger service between > Trenton and Red Bank,N.J. on May 29th,1962 > Its last revenue run closed passenger service between > Camdem and Trenton,N.J. on June 28th,1963. It was > deadheaded that same day to Wilmington and placed > in storage. 4666 was sold on October 6th,1965 to the > Penn View Mountain RR in Blairsville,Pa. ,but never > operated by that owner. > > On June 1rst,1967 it was purchased by Raymond L. > Kennedy of Toronto and moved to the Arcade and Attica RR. > It never entered service on the A&A. > It was later sold on July 13th,1971 to the Historical Equipment > Association,which stored it on the New Hope and Ivyland RR > In April of 1975 it was moved under its own power > to Ringoes,N.J. where the Black River and Western RR > took title to the car on December 26th,1978. > That is where it is today (as of 1986 and now?) > > A near sister...4662 (Brill 1925) works in the employ > of the Wilmington and Western. > > Til Later > Hank Mummert Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 08:40:58 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Brill motorcar question >So having found out that these were fairly common on the PRR, which is a >shock, >what is the likelyhood of one having operated out of a major terminal in >Philadelphia? Did one ever run out of 30th st. or Broad st.? Somehow the >thought of one of these things rumbling up the corridor to Frankford Junction >has great appeal. The video PRR Steam and Electric Years I (or something like that) shows a doodlebug at Trenton. See too my comments regarding 4666. At one point it ran out of Baltimore. Passenger service to the Fredrick Branch from Lancaster was reduced mainly to doodlebugs by WWII, and these trains originated in the Lancaster station...doodlebugs and the Broad Way Limited on the Main Line... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pennsy Nut" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Tool Car by WSM Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 08:44:34 -0500 Hi Harry and Bruce I too, have one of these WSM Tool cars. What color was it painted? For what period of time? Assuming I model just after WW2, would they still be running? My ORER for 1943 doesn't list it. Or maybe I'm looking in the wrong place. Thanks for this thread. This group is fantastic. FYI The box for my model has a dealer price of $37.00, I bought it at a swap "prior to 1990" for $10.00. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 & Proud SPF ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F Smith" To: "Harry Fitch" Cc: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, 18 June, 2003 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Tool Car by WSM > On Wed, 18 Jun 2003, Harry Fitch wrote: > > > Does anyone have any prototype information that they could share with me > > about the HO scale PRR Tool Car produced in Japan for West Side Models? > > > > It appears to perhaps have a passenger car lineage but I am not familiar > > with it enough to make an ID on the car. I have a photo off line if that > > would be helpful. > > I believe you are refferring to class TA, a nice 3/4 view of whihc is > shown on page 423 of PP III. The caption reads "This photograph of toll > cat 60, class TA, taken at Altoona in 1939 is a mystery picture. Link and > pin coupler and lack of air brakes would indicate the ca was built about > 1870, but this is not a pre-1870 car. We would guess it to be of > passenger car (head end) origin circa 1890. Perhaps it was restored for > some kind of special exhibit like the 1939 World's Fair. We just don't > know" > > A photo of a similar car is seen on p109 of the PRR Color Guide 3. That > car is seen on a wreck train in Waynesboro PA, in grey paint in the > company of baldwin and EMD (I think) diesasels. This car differs from > teh one in PP3 in that it has an end cupola, rather than a centered > cupola. The neat thing about this photo is that it indicates cars of > this class continued in service past WWII!! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Delmarva Peninsula Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 09:58:42 -0400 Listers, In the next couple of week I will vacationing in Rehoboth Beach De. Is there anything PRR related in the area? I know there was a dinner train that left Lewes and ran south. Is this on PRR tracks? If not what other railroads were in the area? Are there any hobby shops? Thanks. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 11:35:35 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: P85 Coach Kit From: John Sheets > > There was talk, may be a year ago, of the P85 coach kit being done by a > mid-west hobby shop or model maker. Did this car ever make it into > production? If so, where can they be obtained? Believe that was Des Plaines Hobby in Des Plaines, IL, but it never made it due to a problem with the designated mfg. Did see a pilot model, looked nice. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 13:20:03 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: P85 Coach Kit "nice"?? It was gorgeous. I damn near had an orgasm right there in the Springfield show two years ago. It was the most fantastic thing a Pennsy passenger car fan could hope for! Now for the bad news - ". . . two years ago"!! Not a word has been heard since, except for the rumor that they will not produce kits. Only RTR from I/M. Im not a collector. I like to build my models. I sure hope this rumor is false. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== John Sheets wrote: > > > > There was talk, may be a year ago, of the P85 coach kit being done by a > > mid-west hobby shop or model maker. Did this car ever make it into > > production? If so, where can they be obtained? > > Believe that was Des Plaines Hobby in Des Plaines, IL, but it never made it > due to a problem with the designated mfg. Did see a pilot model, looked > nice. > > John > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 13:35:05 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: P85 Coach Kit From: Jerry Britton On Thursday, June 19, 2003, at 01:20 PM, Andrew S. Miller wrote: > "nice"?? It was gorgeous. I damn near had an orgasm right there in > the > Springfield show two years ago. It was the most fantastic thing a > Pennsy > passenger car fan could hope for! > > Now for the bad news - ". . . two years ago"!! Not a word has been > heard > since, except for the rumor that they will not produce kits. Only RTR > from > I/M. Im not a collector. I like to build my models. I sure hope > this rumor > is false. The N scale version came available as a kit about 18 months ago. It's release as a built-up from InterMountain is imminent. Probably July. I've heard this from my contacts at both InterMountain and Des Plaines Hobbies. I haven't spoken to them recently about the HO version, but several months ago Bob Bickley (who left InterMountain as of May 1) had told me that an HO version, built-up, would follow the N scale version. I don't know if that is still the case or not. They key is whether or not the kit was ever finished. IM has done several HO passenger cars as built-up. They've done Bethlehem Car Works Reading and B&M coaches and combines. I've been very impressed with the product. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 13:35:41 -0400 From: Alex Charyna Subject: Re: [PRR] Brill motorcar question According to "Trackside Around Philadelphia", the Pennsy offered doodlebug service out of Norristown for Phoenixville/Reading in the 1940s. There was also doodlebug service from Wawa down the Octoraro branch. When did they arrive on the Pennsy? I wonder if they might have run up the Bustleton Branch when that had passenger service. It ended in the mid 20s. -alex On Thursday, June 19, 2003, at 09:40 AM, Bruce F. Smith wrote: >> So having found out that these were fairly common on the PRR, which >> is a >> shock, >> what is the likelyhood of one having operated out of a major terminal >> in >> Philadelphia? Did one ever run out of 30th st. or Broad st.? >> Somehow the >> thought of one of these things rumbling up the corridor to Frankford >> Junction >> has great appeal. > > The video PRR Steam and Electric Years I (or something like that) > shows a > doodlebug at Trenton. See too my comments regarding 4666. At one > point it > ran out of Baltimore. Passenger service to the Fredrick Branch from > Lancaster was reduced mainly to doodlebugs by WWII, and these trains > originated in the Lancaster station...doodlebugs and the Broad Way > Limited > on the Main Line... > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ > ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ > __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | > ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > > |/ > _____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 12:49:58 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Tool Car by WSM At 8:44 AM -0500 6/19/03, Pennsy Nut wrote: >I too, have one of these WSM Tool cars. What color was it painted? For >what period of time? Assuming I model just after WW2, would they still be >running? Up to 1937 (ish) FCC (freight car color/red) 1937-1953 (ish) Grey Post 1953 Yeller I find it very unlikely that these cars made it past 1950. They were old when the XL class MOW cars were installed, and shortly after WWII, a LOT of heavyweight Pullman equipment became available, and so the transition to using those cars began. The photo in the Color Guide 3 is color (Of course) of a grey car probably dates from the late 1940's or early 1950's. >My ORER for 1943 doesn't list it. Or maybe I'm looking in the >wrong place. Does it list MOW equipment by class? I have to admit I haven't looked at mine for that! BTW, a drawing of class TA can be found at: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=TA-.gif&sel=tool&sz=sm&fr= Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRR-Modeling] C-Liner details Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 10:53:02 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3368B.A1311B90 Content-Type: text/plain Folks; Noting some of the discussion on this subject in the past, I was wondering what experiences you've had in detailing the P1K C-Liner for PRR. All I've heard is the CalScale lift lug and antennae set info, and complaint about the color, but what else have you all done now that some time has passed and you've had time to reflect about all the things one might do. Did any of you fix the sideframes? How? De-skirting? How did that go? What extras did you add? Did anyone have luck correcting the color with an overspray? Thanks for any input! Elden ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3368B.A1311B90 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

=

 

=

Folks;

  Noting some of the discussion = on this subject in the past, I was wondering what experiences you've had in detailing the P1K C-Liner for PRR.  All I've heard is the CalScale lift = lug and antennae set info, and complaint about the color, but what else = have you all done now that some time has passed and you've had time to reflect = about all the things one might do.  = Did any of you fix the sideframes?  How?  De-skirting?  How did that go?  What extras did you add?  Did anyone have luck = correcting the color with an overspray?

Thanks for any input!

Elden


------_=_NextPart_001_01C3368B.A1311B90-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [PRR-Modeling] C-Liner details Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 20:28:07 +0000 Elden: I have not done this on my C-liners yet, but I may have a partial solution for you on the color. The P2K and P1K Pennsy engines are too "green." Brunswick green is almost a black green. What I have done on my P2K SD-7 and SD-9 is to first gloss coat the entire shell after masking out the windows and headlights. Glosscoating has always given dull finishes not only a "wet" look, but more importantly a darker look. There is a very noticable difference in color shade when I compare my SD units with my other P2K Geeps that are untreated. One trick is to find a shade of brunswick green (available from the numerous paint companies) to match the new darkened brunswick green on the body shell. Once that is done, detail parts such as lift rings, hand grabs and antennas can be added and painted. Finally, weathing and dullcoating is to be applied. Dullcoating typically does not lighten up a paint shade as much as gloss coating darkens it so the overall appearance will be darker. i would suggest some moderate weathering to suggest that the brunswick green paint has oxidized to some extent. I hope that this helps. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana >From: ELDEN GATWOOD >To: "'PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com'" , > PENNSY Modeler , "'PRR-Talk@dsop.com'" > >Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRR-Modeling] C-Liner details >Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 10:53:02 -0700 > > > >Folks; > Noting some of the discussion on this subject in the past, I was >wondering >what experiences you've had in detailing the P1K C-Liner for PRR. All I've >heard is the CalScale lift lug and antennae set info, and complaint about >the color, but what else have you all done now that some time has passed >and >you've had time to reflect about all the things one might do. Did any of >you fix the sideframes? How? De-skirting? How did that go? What extras >did you add? Did anyone have luck correcting the color with an overspray? >Thanks for any input! >Elden _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS, Other T&HSs, and Modeling Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 14:07:01 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_02B9_01C3366C.0DEE6140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I noted with interest Jim Six's mention of the ACL-SAL and C&O groups as = being prototype modeler friendly. The big difference here, it seems to = me, is that the ACL-SAL and C&O were not, in the pre-1980 or so days = before prototype modeling, much favored by the mass market = manufacturers, the magazine editors, etc. But when you think about it, = the PRR has always been a major focus of interest. RMC ran articles in = the late 1950s on how to detail PRR steam and diesel locos, for = instance, and MR ran many PRR prototype drawings by J. Harold Geissel. = By the same token, there have been plenty of entrepreneurial modelers = who have undertaken to produce PRR related model items without going = through the PRRT&HS. It also appears that manufacturers have seen the = benefit of doing PRR models from the earliest days of the hobby without = the need for an organized group to promote the idea. =20 So I think there may be some historical reason for the PRRT&HS having a = somewhat different focus, in addition to the fact that the PRR was such = a huge enterprise that the task of organizing and publishing the = technical and historical material is task enough. It's worth pointing = out, as Andy Sperandeo did in his review of the Eastern Car Works P70 = kit, that the PRR had more P70s alone than the Santa Fe had passenger = cars of any kind. =20 I've been a happy member of the PRRT&HS for more than 30 years, and it = seems to go from strength to strength, though there are many parts of = the system that haven't even been mentioned in the Keystone and related = publications, so there's more to do. ------=_NextPart_000_02B9_01C3366C.0DEE6140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I noted with interest Jim Six's mention of the = ACL-SAL and=20 C&O groups as being prototype modeler friendly.   The big=20 difference here, it seems to me, is that the ACL-SAL and C&O were = not, in=20 the pre-1980 or so days before prototype modeling, much favored by the = mass=20 market manufacturers, the magazine editors, etc.  But when you = think about=20 it, the PRR has always been a major focus of interest. RMC ran articles = in the=20 late 1950s on how to detail PRR steam and diesel locos, for instance, = and MR ran=20 many PRR prototype drawings by J. Harold Geissel.  By the same = token, there=20 have been plenty of entrepreneurial modelers who have undertaken to = produce PRR=20 related model items without going through the PRRT&HS.  It also = appears=20 that manufacturers have seen the benefit of doing PRR models from = the=20 earliest days of the hobby without the need for an organized group = to=20 promote the idea.  
 
So  I think there may be = some=20 historical reason for the PRRT&HS having a somewhat different focus, = in=20 addition to the fact that the PRR was such a huge enterprise that the = task of=20 organizing and publishing the technical and historical material is task=20 enough.  It's worth pointing out, as Andy Sperandeo did in his = review of=20 the Eastern Car Works P70 kit, that the PRR had more P70s alone than the = Santa=20 Fe had passenger cars of any kind. 
 
I've been a happy member of the PRRT&HS for more = than 30=20 years, and it seems to go from strength to strength, though there are = many parts=20 of the system that haven't even been mentioned in the Keystone and = related=20 publications, so there's more to do.
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_02B9_01C3366C.0DEE6140-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS, Other T&HSs, and Modeling Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 21:06:54 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C336A6.B66AF600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The most noticable being diesels or modern steam. My understanding is = that a future issue will deal with the F units in detail, about 25 years = past due. Bob Reid covered diesels partially in Rails Northeast and the = briefly published Pennsy Journal, but the treatment in the Withers = Pennsy Diesel Years books was fine superfically but not very scientific = (the individual series by type and manufacturer were better, but still = not on the level of the typical prewar steam or early 1900 era freight = car treatise in the Keystone). And of course as far as the Keystone is concerned, motive power ended = with the M1. Though the Keystone may be the finest RR historical = society publication, it differs greatly from their competitors in this = treatment (or lack of it) of anything after WWII. Not intended to slam = anyone as the editors et al are at the mercy of contributors. Just making the point that a definitive article has yet to be written on = the J1,Q2, or to a lesser extent, the T1. Being biased, I would also = throw in there the few FM switchers as an example. My $.02 (or less) worth. Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C336A6.B66AF600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<there are many parts of the system = that haven't=20 even been mentioned in the Keystone and related publications, so there's = more to=20 do.>
 
The most noticable being diesels or = modern steam.=20 My understanding is that a future issue will deal with the F units in = detail,=20 about 25 years past due.  Bob Reid covered diesels partially in = Rails=20 Northeast and the briefly published  Pennsy Journal, but the =20 treatment in the Withers Pennsy Diesel Years books was fine superfically = but not=20 very scientific (the individual series by type and manufacturer were = better, but=20 still not on the level of the typical prewar steam or early 1900 era = freight car=20 treatise  in the Keystone).
 
And of course as far as the Keystone is = concerned,=20 motive power ended with the M1.  Though the Keystone may be the = finest RR=20 historical society publication, it differs greatly from their = competitors in=20 this treatment (or lack of it) of anything after WWII.  Not = intended to=20 slam anyone as the editors et al are at the mercy of contributors.
 
Just making the point that a definitive = article=20 has yet to be written on the J1,Q2, or to  a lesser extent, = the=20 T1.  Being biased, I would also throw in there the few FM switchers = as an=20 example.
 
My $.02  (or less) worth.
 
Bob = Zoeller
------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C336A6.B66AF600-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 22:29:56 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] PRRT&HS, Other T&HSs, and Modeling This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_k57zWYFvcsY30ci1FUC+Rg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Re:My understanding is that a future issue [Keystone] will deal with the F units in detail. Yes, the Winter '03 should be 96 pages of nothing but EMD F units, by Jack Consoli who gave an excellent presentation on the same subject during the past annual meeting. Al --Boundary_(ID_k57zWYFvcsY30ci1FUC+Rg) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message
Re:My understanding is that a future issue [Keystone] will deal with the F units in detail.
 
Yes, the Winter '03 should be 96 pages of nothing but EMD F units, by Jack Consoli who gave an excellent presentation on the same subject during the past annual meeting.
 
Al
--Boundary_(ID_k57zWYFvcsY30ci1FUC+Rg)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 22:35:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS, Other T&HSs, and Modeling Bob, Geez, You say an article on the J's, Q's and to a lessor extent the T1 need written for the Keystone. Wow! Did you miss the Autamn 2001 issue Neil Burnell did on the T1's?. Although written from the trainmens point of view more or less and tons of excellent pics, it is better sometimes done this way instead of being bombbarded with numbers and goblygook that one easily gets drowned in. That was the best issue ever of a Keystone in my opinion. As for J's, Roger Keyers article in an early 1980's (1983?) issue was pretty good for the time. Yes, the Q Class needs some coverage but there are other books that explained things pretty good. (NJ International comes to mind). The Keystone is what it is. The few authors who write the articles can't be experts on everything, so some things can't get covered. The Keystone Mag is A-1 both past and present and I am sure will be in the future...Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 08:29:42 -0400 Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Online Endeavors From: Jerry Britton Folks, the PRRT&HS has come a long way in the 6-7 years or so that I have been a member. In the early days of this list, there was a lot of vocal complaint about the lack of Internet access to Society products and services. The administration at the time was anything but Internet savvy. Circa 1999 some of the BoD started to get online and, I suspect, behind closed doors admitted "Hey, this isn't so bad!" Change was slow to come, but was evident. The Society eNews has been a great benefit, I believe. The Society's web site, stagnant for some time, has sprung to new life under the guidance of new Society president Al Buchan. And the new Discussion Forum, for those that care to use it, is certainly an improvement over the old system. The Society's new eStore finally fulfills a promise -- now that all logistical operations are being done in one place. It is my hope that this format works for the Society and actually becomes attractive to those modeling other roads who may desire to purchase research materials. Thank you, Al Buchan, for guiding the Society into the digital era! It's long overdue, but perhaps our train has finally come in! (Now if we could only order photos and drawings online!) P.S. Merchandise Service will NOT be selling Keystones. We polled about a month ago and there certainly was substantial interest in our providing this product. However, the added profits the Society stands to gain by selling direct -- now that they have the mechanism in place -- would be our preferred method for those desiring back issues. Please support the Society in this regard. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 08:55:46 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] PRRT&HS Online Endeavors Jerry, Thanx for your comments. All of the credit for the website goes to Steve Agostini, he was the original designer and has for years been jumping up and down trying to get people interested in it and committed to it. Well his jumping has paid off as Steve and I now work very closely in this important endeavor. Steve and I also have plans to make this site better and better as time goes on and we currently have plans under way for adding other new and interesting things. So stay tuned! The development of the new discussion forum is also a product of Steve's research, determination over a long period of time, and his computer design talents. I believe the Society was fortunate to have Club e-Stores submit a proposal to operate our e-store. I have personally met with and have had several discussions and many emails with Tom Salmon, its President and feel confident that we will enjoy a long relationship. They have been the most responsive organization that I have come across in a long time. I appreciate your supporting the store and hope that many PRR-Talk subscribers will take advantage of the store in ordering our products. As---- as ordering photos and drawings online goes, that too will come at some point. Our first initiative will be to list all of the available drawings on the website, but will still require using US Mail to order. As far as photos goes that's still some ways off as the inventory still needs to be completed. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 09:11:52 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Motor Cars Just to add a little noise, according to Lee's "Down Along the Old Bel-Del," the last train on the Trenton-Phillipsburg run was #2372 on October 26, 1960, and was protected by motor car #4658. Can we assume that this particular car was scrapped? And I believe the Black River and Western still has a car, presumably #4666; and of course they still own the last mile or so of Belvidere Delaware track around Lambertville, although they haven't run over the track lately. As a nipper, I rode the car from Lambertville to Trenton (my trip in the other direction found a bus in substitution; the engineman rode in back of the bus driver with a big smile on his face!). I saw the Red Bank train at Trenton and alas never had the foresight to climb on board. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pennsy Nut" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Keystone sales Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 08:31:40 -0500 Hi Jerry And All! For which I for one applaud you! It takes an astute business man to recognize where and when to decide what to sell and what not to. And a hearty second to your applauding Al Buchan. He has indeed, brought the Society into the digital age. And not to forget Steve Agostini! Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist & Proud SPF Member of PRRTHS #1204 President of Penn Texas Chapter of PRRT&HS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 09:49:34 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Keystone sales From: Jerry Britton On Friday, June 20, 2003, at 09:31 AM, Pennsy Nut wrote: > For which I for one applaud you! It takes an astute business man to > recognize where and when to decide what to sell and what not to. I, and many, have been pushing for the Society to get into eCommerce for years. When it wasn't happening, I offered the eCommerce functions of my server to the Society, free of charge. That removed the "cost issue". The Society eStore did, in fact, run on my server for a little over a year. However, logistical issues within the Society -- and I use that term lightly; no insult intended -- prevented it from being an ideal solution. As you know, the Society farmed it out for bid to have an outside firm run their store on a commercial/commission basis. I opted not to bid due to time constraints with my own business and my family. I made recommendations as to what I felt should be in a winning proposal. The Club Stores solution meets most of those recommendations. Hopefully it will turn out to be a winning partnership. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] society and modelers Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 14:04:23 +0000 There has been an off and on again thread about the historical role of the society and modelers wanting more coverage which leads me to a question. There is no question about the definition of the word "historical" in the PRRT&HS. However I would like a learned description of the word "technical" and its intent in the thinking of the founding members. What was meant when the "Technical" was included in the society name? I find modeling PRR equipment accurately - within my abilities and time frame - to be an extremely technical effort and believe it falls under my definition of technical as an engineer. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Pittsburgh Map Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 10:07:50 -0400 Someone on the list a few weeks (or months) ago asked about the Pittsburgh map. >From the PRRT&HS e-news: PITTSBURGH MAP Extra maps of the Pittsburgh area, printed when the Society's Pittsburgh Steel City book was first offered in 1996 are again available for sale. It is a double-sided foldout (25" x 38") 1924 Industrial Map of the Pittsburgh District, at $4 each, postpaid. Contact Ivan Frantz (see address elsewhere in newsletter) or order at the e-store. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 10:19:47 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Pittsburgh Map Re: Someone on the list a few weeks (or months) ago asked about the Pittsburgh map. It's also available on the e-store, probably with quicker service. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] society and modelers Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 10:52:28 -0400 I believe when the society started the PRR was still in business or not that far removed. Therefore it was a society that was built on studying the technical aspects of a railroad more than the average railfan. I am a member of the Conrail Technical Society. I assume soon it will be the Conrail Technical and Historical Society. It sounds better than the Pennsylvania railroad fan club. Or the sspf (Society for slobbering Pennsy freaks) "although some say the slobbering is redundant" to quote the late owner of Pro Custom Hobbies in Baltimore. Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net] Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 10:04 AM To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] society and modelers What was meant when the "Technical" was included in the society name? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: Re: [PRR] society and modelers Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 07:44:19 -0700 Actually, the PRRT&HS was founded as the "Pennsylvania Research and Information Association", and the name didn't change until sometime in the 1970s when (according to my memory) the organization was incorporated and the name changed to be reflective of other *T&HSs". In earlier times, "The Snapper" was a model-oriented insert in the Keystone, which seems to have evolved more into reviews of books and kits in recent years. Chuck Blardone might be the best one to say whether more modeling-oriented stuff might reappear in the Snapper. But again, "prototype modelers" are just one contingent of a number of people supporting the PRRT&HS. Traditional O scalers, 3-rail and hi-railers, live steamers, historians, and others are a very visible part of the group and should not be shorted simply because one contingent (and based on some e-mail conversations I've had in the past with Jim Six, he may agree in part) called "prototype modelers" feels it should have special notice. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 7:04 AM Subject: [PRR] society and modelers > There has been an off and on again thread about the historical role of the > society and modelers wanting more coverage which leads me to a question. There > is no question about the definition of the word "historical" in the PRRT&HS. > However I would like a learned description of the word "technical" and its > intent in the thinking of the founding members. What was meant when > the "Technical" was included in the society name? I find modeling PRR > equipment accurately - within my abilities and time frame - to be an extremely > technical effort and believe it falls under my definition of technical as an > engineer. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pennsy Nut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh Map Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 10:29:27 -0500 Hi Y'all Does the use of the "e-store" cut into Ivan Frantz's services? I would think not, it should give him some relief from the work load. But thought I'd get this on the PRR-List just to clear the air! Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist & Proud SPF Member of PRRTHS #1204 President of Penn Texas Chapter of PRRT&HS ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Buchan" To: "'Chany, Christopher'" ; "'PRR-Talk LIST'" Sent: Friday, 20 June, 2003 9:19 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Pittsburgh Map Re: Someone on the list a few weeks (or months) ago asked about the Pittsburgh map. It's also available on the e-store, probably with quicker service. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 11:41:04 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh Map From: Jerry Britton On Friday, June 20, 2003, at 11:29 AM, Pennsy Nut wrote: > > Does the use of the "e-store" cut into Ivan Frantz's services? > > I would think not, it should give him some relief from the work load. > But > thought I'd get this on the PRR-List just to clear the air! Replaces. I alluded to problems with the "logistics" of the previous direct sales format. The Society was filling orders via several people. Ivan was managing the color drift cars and, most recently, Keystones, which then went back to the Stanleys. Other people were involved to ship other products. One order could involve 4-5 people: recipient of the order and check, ship Keystones, ship drift cards, etc. This caused the order to really drag out, also. I was hoping things would be centralized when the first eStore went online. It didn't. The new eStore operator apparently maintains a warehouse with stock. I don't know if it is on consignment or on the Society's very generous terms. Either way, all the stuff is in one place and can be shipped within 2-3 days. Major difference! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 12:00:03 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 06/20/03 John, Where and when did this appear? I just did a search on MR's magazine index and could not find this. Tom Hayden At 01:10 AM 06/20/2003 -0400, John Bruce wrote: > as Andy Sperandeo did in his review of the Eastern Car Works P70 kit= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Trains Web Page announcement Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 16:11:23 +0000 I copied this from the Trains.com webpage as I thought it might be of interest. I eliminated the CN and NYC cars from the announcement. HO scale Athabasca Scale Models Ltd. offers the following passenger car kits: ... Pennsylvania RR (PRR) 4-4-2 Imperial-series sleeper (car nos. 8011-8017); PRR 4- 4-2 Imperial-series sleeper (car nos. 8008-8019); PRR 10-roomette, 5-double- bedroom Cascade-series sleeper (car nos. 8083-8110); and PRR 18-roomette City of-series sleeper (car nos. 8040-8068). The kits feature brass sides, a Train Station Products core kit, and appropriate trucks. Athabasca Scale Models Ltd., 201, 2318 18th Ave. N.E., Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2E 8R1; www.athabascashops.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 12:21:12 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains Web Page announcement From: Jerry Britton On Friday, June 20, 2003, at 12:11 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Pennsylvania RR (PRR) 4-4-2 Imperial-series sleeper (car nos. > 8011-8017); PRR 4- > 4-2 Imperial-series sleeper (car nos. 8008-8019); PRR 10-roomette, > 5-double- > bedroom Cascade-series sleeper (car nos. 8083-8110); and PRR > 18-roomette City > of-series sleeper (car nos. 8040-8068). The kits feature brass sides, > a Train > Station Products core kit, and appropriate trucks. Athabasca Scale > Models Ltd., > 201, 2318 18th Ave. N.E., Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2E 8R1; > www.athabascashops.com Has anyone here ever built one of these kits? What makes them stand out for their $95 price? (That's the price of the other HO sleepers on the web site.) A Brass Car Sides solution is less than half that, and a Laser Horizons solution (all plastic) is about a quarter the price. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Trains Web Page announcement Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 12:37:02 -0400 The prices on their site are in Canadian dollars. The ordering page says to divide by 1.5. So they're only $63. Still seems pretty pricey though... Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry > Britton > Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 12:21 PM > To: ndbprr@att.net > Cc: PRR-Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains Web Page announcement > > > On Friday, June 20, 2003, at 12:11 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > > > Pennsylvania RR (PRR) 4-4-2 Imperial-series sleeper (car nos. > > 8011-8017); PRR 4- > > 4-2 Imperial-series sleeper (car nos. 8008-8019); PRR 10-roomette, > > 5-double- > > bedroom Cascade-series sleeper (car nos. 8083-8110); and PRR > > 18-roomette City > > of-series sleeper (car nos. 8040-8068). The kits feature brass sides, > > a Train > > Station Products core kit, and appropriate trucks. Athabasca Scale > > Models Ltd., > > 201, 2318 18th Ave. N.E., Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2E 8R1; > > www.athabascashops.com > > Has anyone here ever built one of these kits? What makes them stand out > for their $95 price? (That's the price of the other HO sleepers on the > web site.) A Brass Car Sides solution is less than half that, and a > Laser Horizons solution (all plastic) is about a quarter the price. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 06/20/03 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 10:16:46 -0700 It was a review of either the original Alco Models P70 or the very similar ECW P70. I would estimate close to the time that these models came out, which I think would be mid-80s. More than that I can't say, but it shouldn't be too difficult to check the statistics in any case. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Hayden" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 9:00 AM Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 06/20/03 > John, > > Where and when did this appear? I just did a search on MR's magazine index > and could not find this. > > Tom Hayden > > At 01:10 AM 06/20/2003 -0400, John Bruce wrote: > > as Andy Sperandeo did in his review of the Eastern Car Works P70 kit= > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Bruce" Subject: [PRR] Modeling "vs" History Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 10:35:09 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C33717.9F29D440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't mean to knock other railroads, but when you think about it, the = PRR has an enormous connection with US cultural, political, and = industrial history -- you can cite only a few others like the Santa Fe = and the UP/SP with equivalent impact. As a result, I've got no problem = at all, and in fact enthusiastically welcome, issues like the current = Keystone that cover primarily the PRR's short-lived involvement with = airlines (in the process of which it helped found what became TWA). I = guess that as a result I might be more inclined to buy an HO Ford = Tri-motor with TAT decals, but my interest in this is something in = addition to modeling. I would note that of the railroads I mentioned above, I now and then = pick up the Santa Fe group's Warbonnet and the UP and SP group organs as = well. They are much, much more "prototype modeler" oriented and as a = result, to me, lack depth and historical perspective. The Keystone is = simply in a different league, reflecting in part the size, scope, and = interest of the PRR. I wouldn't want it any other way. There are several things to think about here. One is that this = generation's X29 model will likely not be as good as something someone = might bring out in 2020, but the materials in the Keystone on that = subject will likely be the basis of both models. On the other hand, an = MR article in scratchbuilding a gondola from 1958 may or may not be of = much use this year -- 50-50 chance you'd just toss the 45 year old MR = article, even though XYZ modelers thought it was great back then. Same = thing with a Red Ball X23, now that a Westerfield car is available, the = unbuilt Red Balls may stay unbuilt forever. But the Keystone articles = will always be useful. I'm inclined to say that a lot of the modeling material in the Santa Fe, = UP, and SP organs will go out of date. Not to mention the elitist and = snobbish attitudes of some elements of the modeling community, as = reflected in some T&HS organs. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C33717.9F29D440 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't mean to knock other railroads, but when you = think=20 about it, the PRR has an enormous connection with US cultural, = pollainal, and=20 industrial history -- you can cite only a few others like the Santa Fe = and the=20 UP/SP with equivalent impact.  As a result, I've got no problem at = all, and=20 in fact enthusiastically welcome, issues like the current Keystone that = cover=20 primarily the PRR's short-lived involvement with airlines (in the = process of=20 which it helped found what became TWA).  I guess that as a result I = might=20 be more inclined to buy an HO Ford Tri-motor with TAT decals, but my = interest in=20 this is something in addition to modeling.
 
I would note that of the railroads I mentioned = above, I now=20 and then pick up the Santa Fe group's Warbonnet and the UP and SP group = organs=20 as well.   They are much, much more "prototype modeler" = oriented and=20 as a result, to me, lack depth and historical = perspective.    The=20 Keystone is simply in a different league, reflecting in part the size, = scope,=20 and interest of the PRR.  I wouldn't want it any other = way.
 
There are several things to think about here.  = One is=20 that this generation's X29 model will likely not be as good as something = someone=20 might bring out in 2020, but the materials in the Keystone on that = subject will=20 likely be the basis of both models.   On the other hand, an MR = article=20 in scratchbuilding a gondola from 1958 may or may not be of much = use this=20 year -- 50-50 chance you'd just toss the 45 year old MR article, even = though XYZ=20 modelers thought it was great back then.  Same thing with a Red = Ball X23,=20 now that a Westerfield car is available, the unbuilt Red Balls may stay = unbuilt=20 forever.  But the Keystone articles will always be = useful.
 
I'm inclined to say that a lot of the modeling material in the Santa Fe, UP, and SP organs will go = out of=20 date.  Not to mention the elitist and snobbish attitudes of some = elements=20 of the modeling community, as reflected in some T&HS=20 organs.
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C33717.9F29D440-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco Models P70 Review Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 17:51:43 +0000 John Bruce wrote in reply to Tom Hayden: It was a review of either the original Alco Models P70 or the very similar ECW P70. I would estimate close to the time that these models came out, which I think would be mid-80s. Try in the neighborhood of early 1984 - I didn't record the MR review in my personal reference database, but RMC did their review in March 1984. A big disadvantage of Kalmbach's online magazine article search engine is that product reviews aren't in the database; nevertheless, it's still an excellent tool. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco Models P70 Review Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 18:06:25 +0000 If RMC reviewed it in March of 1984 it will almost certainly be at least four months earlier in MR since they like to review preproduction and hand picked items so they can be first. > John Bruce wrote in reply to Tom Hayden: > It was a review of either the original Alco Models P70 or the very similar > ECW P70. I would estimate close to the time that these models came out, > which I think would be mid-80s. > > > Try in the neighborhood of early 1984 - I didn't record the MR review in my > personal reference database, but RMC did their review in March 1984. > > A big disadvantage of Kalmbach's online magazine article search engine is that > product reviews aren't in the database; nevertheless, it's still an excellent > tool. > > > Ben Hom > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 14:18:28 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Pittsburgh Map Re: Does the use of the "e-store" cut into Ivan Frantz's services? No not really. If you go to the website and click on "The Interchange" or read the "Society Services" or even read "Society Services" in the e-News you can see the e-store essentially handles all products, except those in short supply, i.e., Keystone reprints, color drift cards and recordings. Color drift cards, recordings and maps.are all still available as mail order items directly from Ivan. Also all books and back issues of "The Keystone" are all still available as mail order items from The Stanleys. The Stanleys also handle all microfilm requests. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Modeling "vs" History Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 14:24:36 -0400 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33759.3415A39A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" John, With this one paragraph you basically summed up what Chuck Blardone editor of the Keystone has been saying for years when asked why he won't run articles on building an Xwhatever car from a Red-bow-life company's kit. There are several things to think about here. One is that this generation's X29 model will likely not be as good as something someone might bring out in 2020, but the materials in the Keystone on that subject will likely be the basis of both models. On the other hand, an MR article in scratchbuilding a gondola from 1958 may or may not be of much use this year -- 50-50 chance you'd just toss the 45 year old MR article, even though XYZ modelers thought it was great back then. Same thing with a Red Ball X23, now that a Westerfield car is available, the unbuilt Red Balls may stay unbuilt forever. How many people need the RMC article on building an H21 by milling sides off a Athearn Quad Hopper and reversing the hoppers. Chris Chany ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33759.3415A39A Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
John,
 
With this one paragraph you basically summed up what Chuck Blardone editor of the Keystone has been saying for years when asked why he won't run articles on building an Xwhatever car from a Red-bow-life company's kit.
 
There are several things to think about here.  One is that this generation's X29 model will likely not be as good as something someone might bring out in 2020, but the materials in the Keystone on that subject will likely be the basis of both models.   On the other hand, an MR article iorturatchbuilding a gondola from 1958 may or may not be of much use this year -- 50-50 chance you'd just toss the 45 year old MR article, even though XYZ modelers thought it was great back then.  Same thing with a Red Ball X23, now that a Westerfield car is available, the unbuilt Red Balls may stay unbuilt forever.  
 
How many people need the RMC article on building an H21 by milling sides off a Athearn Quad Hopper and reversing the hoppers.
 
 
Chris Chany
   
 
------_=_NextPart_001_01C33759.3415A39A-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:12:46 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Name Recognition and Coaching of Manufacturers --part1_12d.2c4a6f08.2c24b6ae_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/20/03 1:12:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > I noted with interest Jim Six's mention of the ACL-SAL and C&O groups as = > being prototype modeler friendly. The big difference here, it seems to = > me, is that the ACL-SAL and C&O were not, in the pre-1980 or so days = > before prototype modeling, much favored by the mass market = > manufacturers, the magazine editors, etc. But when you think about it, = > the PRR has always been a major focus of interest. RMC ran articles in = > the late 1950s on how to detail PRR steam and diesel locos, for = > instance, and MR ran many PRR prototype drawings by J. Harold Geissel. = > By the same token, there have been plenty of entrepreneurial modelers = > who have undertaken to produce PRR related model items without going = > through the PRRT&HS. It also appears that manufacturers have seen the = > benefit of doing PRR models from the earliest days of the hobby without = > the need for an organized group to promote the idea. =20 > In the past, it's often been suggested that "Pennsylvania" was conveniently a widely and well-known name among the model train crowd, providing satisfactory sales volume. But that was true back in a world when everybody was concious of trains -- and the biggest railroad was PRR. More recently, at least one longtime supplier's sales rep was quoted as having complained that "Sales are decreasing because Pennsy fans are dying off". Incidentally, the answer he got back is that PRR modelers, like fans of other roads, are now less likely to buy generic models just because they have PRR markings -- they demand and get actual models of "known prototypes". Now with email, word travels especially fast of a new model's shortcomings -- and the better manufacturers pay attention to this. And who has done more than PRRT&HS to raise this level of sophistocation? The Society and its members have been leaders in researching, analyzing, and presenting prototype data. Between the Keystone and a heck of a lot of work by PRRT&HS members, the bar of "good enough" has been raised, yielding us model products that are better, not just "new". Once the research is documented, there is the job of seeing that manufacturers understand and use the research. It takes persistence and good judgement to advise model manufacturers; after all, manufacturers learn quickly that there's a self-proclaimed "expert" under every rock. I personally do not know of every PRRT&HS hero who's helped a manufacturer -- but I've heard of work by Dr. Bob Johnson, and by Jack Consoli. And I know much work was done with manufacturers by the late Jim Kelly, because I was able to help him a few times with his data searches. These three are just a sample of those who work tirelessly on behalf of better modeling for all of us -- I wish the Society could recognize the many who've contributed, for most have done their work unknown except to their closest friends. One more example how, as was recently mentioned, the Society is characterized by successful "sharing". Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_12d.2c4a6f08.2c24b6ae_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/20/03 1= :12:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


I noted with interest Jim Six's= mention of the ACL-SAL and C&O groups as =3D
being prototype modeler friendly.   The big difference here, it se= ems to =3D
me, is that the ACL-SAL and C&O were not, in the pre-1980 or so days=20= =3D
before prototype modeling, much favored by the mass market =3D
manufacturers, the magazine editors, etc.  But when you think about it,= =3D
the PRR has always been a major focus of interest. RMC ran articles in =3D the late 1950s on how to detail PRR steam and diesel locos, for =3D
instance, and MR ran many PRR prototype drawings by J. Harold Geissel. = =3D
By the same token, there have been plenty of entrepreneurial modelers =3D who have undertaken to produce PRR related model items without going =3D
through the PRRT&HS.  It also appears that manufacturers have seen=20= the =3D
benefit of doing PRR models from the earliest days of the hobby without =3D<= BR> the need for an organized group to promote the idea. =3D20


In the past, it's often been suggested that "Pennsylvania" was conveniently=20= a widely and well-known name among the model train crowd, providing satisfac= tory sales volume.  But that was true back in a world when everybody wa= s concious of trains -- and the biggest railroad was PRR.  More recentl= y, at least one longtime supplier's sales rep was quoted as having complaine= d that "Sales are decreasing because Pennsy fans are dying off".  Incid= entally, the answer he got back is that PRR modelers, like fans of other roa= ds, are now less likely to buy generic models just because they have PRR mar= kings -- they demand and get actual models of "known prototypes".  Now=20= with email, word travels especially fast of a new model's shortcomings -- an= d the better manufacturers pay attention to this.

And who has done more than PRRT&HS to raise this level of sophistocation= ? The Society and its members have been leaders in researching, analyzing, a= nd presenting prototype data.  Between the Keystone and a heck of a lot= of work by PRRT&HS members, the bar of "good enough" has been raised, y= ielding us model products that are better, not just "new".

Once the research is documented, there is the job of seeing that manufacture= rs understand and use the research.  It takes persistence and good judg= ement to advise model manufacturers; after all, manufacturers learn quickly=20= that there's a self-proclaimed "expert" under every rock.  I personally= do not know of every PRRT&HS hero who's helped a manufacturer -- but I'= ve heard of work by Dr. Bob Johnson, and by Jack Consoli.  And I know m= uch work was done with manufacturers by the late Jim Kelly, because I was ab= le to help him a few times with his data searches. 

These three are just a sample of those who work tirelessly on behalf of bett= er modeling for all of us -- I wish the Society could recognize the many who= 've contributed, for most have done their work unknown except to their close= st friends.  One more example how, as was recently mentioned, the Socie= ty is characterized by successful "sharing".

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_12d.2c4a6f08.2c24b6ae_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:24:44 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Name Recognition and Coaching of Manufacturers From: Jerry Britton On Friday, June 20, 2003, at 03:12 PM, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > These three are just a sample of those who work tirelessly on behalf=20= > of better modeling for all of us -- I wish the Society could recognize=20= > the many who've contributed, for most have done their work unknown=20 > except to their closest friends.=A0 One more example how, as was=20 > recently mentioned, the Society is characterized by successful=20 > "sharing". An interesting idea, an award from the Society itself, given annually=20 (or not) to one who has helped create accurate PRR models. That said, many also know that Greg Martin played a significant role=20 with the Athearn Genesis F7 and the Walthers R50b. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:29:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Name Recognition and Coaching of Manufacturers On Fri, 20 Jun 2003 RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > In the past, it's often been suggested that "Pennsylvania" was conveniently a > widely and well-known name among the model train crowd, providing > satisfactory sales volume. But that was true back in a world when everybody was concious > of trains -- and the biggest railroad was PRR. More recently, at least one > longtime supplier's sales rep was quoted as having complained that "Sales are > decreasing because Pennsy fans are dying off". Incidentally, the answe got > back is that PRR modelers, like fans of other roads, are now less likely to > buy generic models just because they have PRR markings -- they demand and get > actual models of "known prototypes". Now with email, word travels especially > fast of a new model's shortcomings -- and the better manufacturers pay > attention to this. If it was Charlie Vlk (I think) who used to be with Kato... Kato's PRR schemes are too green, and the GP35 and SD40 both had paint jobs with incorrect numerals, for instance. Going to have to repaint it, so might as well pick up whatever's cheapest and an undec shell. It it was Atlas, what have they done lately other than rehashes of things they did before (RS1)? The SD35 was nice, it's a shame the shell had some errors that weren't fixed until the second run. They got it right in N scale, and from what I can tell it was just a slip-up. Still, why point the finger at us? My wallet is out, give me something to buy.... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Name Recognition and Coaching of Manufacturers Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 19:46:04 +0000 Rick Tipton wrote: More recently, at least one longtime supplier's sales rep was quoted as having complained that "Sales are decreasing because Pennsy fans are dying off". The other half of the answer back to this guy should have been, "well, everybody else's fans are dying off too." Get real! Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:57:32 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Name Recognition and Coaching of Manufacturers From: Jerry Britton On Friday, June 20, 2003, at 03:46 PM, b.hom@att.net wrote: > More recently, at least one longtime supplier's sales rep was quoted > as having > complained that "Sales are decreasing because Pennsy fans are dying > off". > > > The other half of the answer back to this guy should have been, "well, > everybody else's fans are dying off too." Get real! I disagree. Unfortunately, it is a valid point. We recently had an extended discussion on the Atlas N Scale Forum. InterMountain made the comment that the PRR is a "second tier" railroad in terms of sales. The fact that PRR fans are "dying off" is just one aspect. Consider three additional factors that likely reduce PRR model sales: 1) Anyone born since 1965 or so won't be as likely to be interested in the PRR since they never saw it. (I saw it but don't remember it, having been a 1962 model.) They would take interest in a road that existed at the time of their early years, at best. 2) Color. All the manufacturers pointed out that a lot of modelers just run trains and don't take into account prototypical accuracy. They mix and match everything. This is one reason Santa Fe continues to thrive so well. 3) Presence today. A lot of other fallen flags still have symbols that hang around as a reminder. "BNSF" is pretty obvious about its Santa Fe roots. All PRR has to show are small (4"?) letters under the road numbers of some Norfolk Southern diesels. And PRR is a road name that is four generations ago (NS, Conrail, PC, PRR). All valid points, I believe. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Name Recognition and Coaching of Manufacturers Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 20:06:31 +0000 Gize: The other thing to think about is that modern railroading has become more generic than in the past. IMHO, the modern logos, color schemes, engines and rolling stock have allot to be desired for when compared to the glory years of steam and 1st generation diesels. No modern railroad has any engine, car, signal, etc that is unique to itself. It was different prior to the 1970's when many railroads possessed engines, rolling stock, passenger cars, signals that were unique and hence identified them. RR's like the Pennsy, B&O, Milwaukee, and the NYC come to mind. I think even younger railfans and modelers recognize this. They may model modern stuff, but I think that a good number of them will model stuff in the 1930 -1960 era. Hence, PRR stuff is not going away anytime soon. :) Ted _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Name Recognition and Coaching of Manufacturers Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:53:02 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3376D.F0BD3300 Content-Type: text/plain All; This is all very interesting, but the fact remains that PRR stuff flies off the shelf even now, and much of the rest (yeah, OK, aside from those SF Warbonnets) remains around a while. If you delayed in getting a given unit when it originally came out, how much luck did you have after the fact? If there is something that I want badly enough, I NEVER wait now days. People are always trying to look for a one-liner reason for everything. That sales rep got 3% of the full picture. Does it make sense that the gradual waning of his overall sales is due to the very slight thinning of our ranks over time? If you talk to anyone really knowledgeable about the hobby, they agree that the peak is over, but there are still great models to be made or re-made, and a big market remaining. The new reality will be that there may be fewer of us as time passes, but the products that will be weeded out will be the ones that don't pass muster. Elden -----Original Message----- From: Derrick J Brashear [mailto:shadow@dementia.org] Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 12:29 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Cc: PRR-Modeling@egroups.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Name Recognition and Coaching of Manufacturers On Fri, 20 Jun 2003 RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > In the past, it's often been suggested that "Pennsylvania" was conveniently a > widely and well-known name among the model train crowd, providing > satisfactory sales volume. But that was true back in a world when everybody was concious > of trains -- and the biggest railroad was PRR. More recently, at least one > longtime supplier's sales rep was quoted as having complained that "Sales are > decreasing because Pennsy fans are dying off". Incidentally, the answer he got > back is that PRR modelers, like fans of other roads, are now less likely to > buy generic models just because they have PRR markings -- they demand and get > actual models of "known prototypes". Now with email, word travels especially > fast of a new model's shortcomings -- and the better manufacturers pay > attention to this. If it was Charlie Vlk (I think) who used to be with Kato... Kato's PRR schemes are too green, and the GP35 and SD40 both had paint jobs with incorrect numerals, for instance. Going to have to repaint it, so might as well pick up whatever's cheapest and an undec shell. It it was Atlas, what have they done lately other than rehashes of things they did before (RS1)? The SD35 was nice, it's a shame the shell had some errors that weren't fixed until the second run. They got it right in N scale, and from what I can tell it was just a slip-up. Still, why point the finger at us? My wallet is out, give me something to buy.... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3376D.F0BD3300 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] PRR Name Recognition and Coaching of = Manufacturers

All;
This is all very interesting, but the fact remains = that PRR stuff flies off the shelf even now, and much of the rest = (yeah, OK, aside from those SF Warbonnets) remains around a = while.  If you delayed in getting a given unit when it originally = came out, how much luck did you have after the fact?  If there is = something that I want badly enough, I NEVER wait now days.

People are always trying to look for a one-liner = reason for everything.  That sales rep got 3% of the full = picture.  Does it make sense that the gradual waning of his = overall sales is due to the very slight thinning of our ranks over = time?

  If you talk to anyone really knowledgeable = about the hobby, they agree that the peak is over, but there are still = great models to be made or re-made, and a big market remaining.  = The new reality will be that there may be fewer of us as time passes, = but the products that will be weeded out will be the ones that don't = pass muster.

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Derrick J Brashear [mailto:shadow@dementia.org] =
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 12:29 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Cc: PRR-Modeling@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Name Recognition and Coaching = of Manufacturers

On Fri, 20 Jun 2003 RickTipton@aol.com wrote:

> In the past, it's often been suggested that = "Pennsylvania" was conveniently a
> widely and well-known name among the model = train crowd, providing
> satisfactory sales volume.  But that was = true back in a world when everybody was concious
> of trains -- and the biggest railroad was = PRR.  More recently, at least one
> longtime supplier's sales rep was quoted as = having complained that "Sales are
> decreasing because Pennsy fans are dying = off".  Incidentally, the answer he got
> back is that PRR modelers, like fans of other = roads, are now less likely to
> buy generic models just because they have PRR = markings -- they demand and get
> actual models of "known = prototypes".  Now with email, word travels especially
> fast of a new model's shortcomings -- and the = better manufacturers pay
> attention to this.

If it was Charlie Vlk (I think) who used to be with = Kato... Kato's PRR
schemes are too green, and the GP35 and SD40 both = had paint jobs with
incorrect numerals, for instance. Going to have to = repaint it, so might as
well pick up whatever's cheapest and an undec = shell.

It it was Atlas, what have they done lately other = than rehashes of things
they did before (RS1)? The SD35 was nice, it's a = shame the shell had some
errors that weren't fixed until the second run. They = got it right in N
scale, and from what I can tell it was just a = slip-up. Still, why point
the finger at us? My wallet is out, give me = something to buy....


---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C3376D.F0BD3300-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 17:53:34 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Name Recognition and Coaching of Manufacturers Jerry wrote: > 1) Anyone born since 1965 or so won't be as likely to be interested in > the PRR since they never saw it. (I saw it but don't remember it, > having been a 1962 model.) They would take interest in a road that > existed at the time of their early years, at best. OK, I'm a 1965 model and I vaguely remember some PRR, but not enough to know what the correct color of DGLE is... I do remember the PC green (unfortunately)... Steam was long gone before I was born (I do remember the PRR steam engine at William's Grove when I was a kid and watching the American Freedom train and Chessie Steam special with the Reading T-1). When I got back into model trains (as an adult -- I had a layout when I was a kid up until I went away to college and my mom wanted the basement back), my initial plan was to go with second generation diesel to modern equipment. I went out and purchased several GP35's, SD40's, SD45's, etc. Then, I was exposed to the transition era through a group of modelers (90% of which are members of the PRRT&HS)... I now am modeling tranisition era, even though I never saw it in person... Why? Because it is the widest variety (late steam, early diesel) that you would have ever found. Also, steam (especially LARGE steam) is very good looking when running... What's my point on all this? 2 actually - 1) The society is going to help modeling without focusing on articles specifically about modelling. Likewise, the modelers are going to help the society by interesting more "younger" people like myself to prototype modeling (and the society is the best resource for prototype PRR information that I have ever found). 2) When I first got back into modeling (about 8 years ago), I bought a set of the Athearn PRR Tuscan F7's. Why? Because they said PRR and looked neat. Since then, they have been stripped, antennas and lift rings added and repainted/decalled to DGLE and are much closer to being prototype... The first thing I wondered when the "PRR sales are dropping off" comment was made is whether he meant the expensive Kato/P2K Heritage items (for the modeler) or the Athearn SF engine with PRR paint items that kids/beginners purchase... I help out in a local hobby store and I can assure you it is VERY difficult to get a dad, looking for a first train set for a kid, to buy a Kato or Atlas or P2K Heritage locomotive... It's really 2 different audiences. Jerry also mentions "presence today" as a factor. Going one step further, I think a lot of dad's bought PRR trains for their kids since they liked them... As Jerry pointed out, fathers (and even some young grand-fathers) are getting too old to have seen the PRR... Well, that's my 2 cents worth... Jeff ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roy Breon" Subject: [PRR] E-Store Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 19:21:19 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0102_01C33761.207E2840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is a lot of talk about the new E-store and the Discussion Room = from several people but nowhere did I see the URL for the E-store. No = link on www.prrths.com Where did I miss it? What is it? =20 Roy Breon ------=_NextPart_000_0102_01C33761.207E2840 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There is a lot of talk about the new = E-store and=20 the Discussion Room from several people but nowhere did I see the URL = for the=20 E-store.  No link on www.prrths.com  Where did I miss = it? =20 What is it? 
 
Roy Breon
------=_NextPart_000_0102_01C33761.207E2840-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roy Breon" Subject: [PRR] New Penn Station Rail Tunnel Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 19:21:33 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0106_01C33761.28BDF940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From NERAIL list =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D New York Daily News, June 20, 2003 Light at start of rail tunnel to N.J. By PETE DONOHUE and GREG GITTRICH DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS A long-proposed $5 billion rail tunnel that would double the number of trains between Penn Station and New Jersey is getting the green light, sources said yesterday. A crucial $5 million environmental impact study for the project is expected to be awarded today by NJ Transit, the sources said. The concept of a new commuter tunnel under the Hudson River has been discussed for a decade by NJ Transit, the Port Authority and the Metropolitan Transportation Authority. Today's action would be the most significant attempt yet to making the project a reality. "It's a very big deal," said Jeffrey Zupan, a senior fellow at the Regional Plan Association. "It will be good economically for both sides of the river." The new tunnel would allow NJ Transit to run 21 more trains an hour between New Jersey and Manhattan. Right now, NJ Transit and Amtrak trains are confined to two tracks, creating a bottleneck during rush hours. The PA already has pledged to kick in $1 billion for construction of the tunnel, but the project still faces major hurdles. New Jersey and New York transit officials are expected to seek federal money to cover most of the tunnel's cost. With the many states struggling to balance budgets, the request will compete for funding with other projects around the country. NJ Transit, the PA and the MTA declined comment yesterday. The new tunnel is one of several regional projects designed to bring more commuters into Manhattan. Construction already has started on linking the Long Island Rail Road to Grand Central Terminal, and the MTA is studying whether to bring Metro-North trains to Penn Station. Lower Manhattan rebuilding officials also are examining ways to create a new commuter rail line between Long Island and a proposed transit hub at Ground Zero. ------=_NextPart_000_0106_01C33761.28BDF940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From NERAIL list
 
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D
 
New York Daily News, June 20, 2003

Light at start of rail = tunnel to=20 N.J.

By PETE DONOHUE and GREG GITTRICH
DAILY NEWS STAFF=20 WRITERS

A long-proposed $5 billion rail tunnel that would double = the=20 number of
trains between Penn Station and New Jersey is getting the = green=20 light,
sources said yesterday.

A crucial $5 million = environmental=20 impact study for the project is
expected to be awarded today by NJ = Transit,=20 the sources said.

The concept of a new commuter tunnel under the = Hudson=20 River has been
discussed for a decade by NJ Transit, the Port = Authority and=20 the
Metropolitan Transportation Authority.

Today's action = would be the=20 most significant attempt yet to making the
project a = reality.

"It's a=20 very big deal," said Jeffrey Zupan, a senior fellow at the
Regional = Plan=20 Association. "It will be good economically for both sides
of the=20 river."

The new tunnel would allow NJ Transit to run 21 more = trains an=20 hour
between New Jersey and Manhattan.

Right now, NJ Transit = and=20 Amtrak trains are confined to two tracks,
creating a bottleneck = during rush=20 hours.

The PA already has pledged to kick in $1 billion for = construction=20 of the
tunnel, but the project still faces major hurdles.

New = Jersey=20 and New York transit officials are expected to seek federal
money to = cover=20 most of the tunnel's cost.

With the many states struggling to = balance=20 budgets, the request will
compete for funding with other projects = around the=20 country.

NJ Transit, the PA and the MTA declined comment=20 yesterday.

The new tunnel is one of several regional projects = designed to=20 bring
more commuters into Manhattan.

Construction already has = started=20 on linking the Long Island Rail Road to
Grand Central Terminal, and = the MTA=20 is studying whether to bring
Metro-North trains to Penn = Station.

Lower=20 Manhattan rebuilding officials also are examining ways to create = aGround=20 Zero.

------=_NextPart_000_0106_01C33761.28BDF940-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mike Morrow" Subject: [PRR] Re: Delmarva Peninsula Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 20:58:49 -0400 Hi Chris, Check out this website: http://www.trainweb.org/peninsularailfan/ It has quite a bit of stuff about the whole peninsula. I have seen it but don't know too much abotu the dinner train. There's not much left of the Pennsy in Rehobeth except for the train station that is on the left when you enter on Rehobeth Avenue. The tracks used to run right down the center of Rehobeth Avenue and passengers could get off right at the beach. If you get the chance you might want to slip over to Harrington and check out the old ex-PRR block tower and N-5 Cabin there. If your there on a weekday evening you might even catch a couple of NS movements in the yard. Mike Morrow PRRT&HS #6703 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Name Recognition and Coaching of Manufacturers Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 21:21:08 -0400 Gents, Ted is right. I model primarily the 1950's with some give and take. I'm only 19 and the future of the PRRT&HS. John ----------------------------------------------------------- I think even younger railfans and modelers recognize this. They may model modern stuff, but I think that a good number of them will model stuff in the 1930 -1960 era. Hence, PRR stuff is not going away anytime soon. :) Ted _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] Delmarva Peninsular Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 21:47:40 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C33775.92A209A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike Morrow listed a website for the Delmarva Peninsular for the Three = Railroads which serve us down here. I have a correction on the Maryland = and Delaware segment for the Snow Hill, Maryland line. They list a Town of Queponco and the nice station there. The station = name is Queponco, however the town is named NEWARK, MD. where it is = located. I donated the station signs which are on the station as I was involved = with the station restoration a few years ago. I also have several = artifacts on display inside the station also. Lee Burbage PRRT&HS 1943 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C33775.92A209A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mike Morrow listed a website for the Delmarva Peninsular for the = Three=20 Railroads which serve us down here. I have a correction on the Maryland = and=20 Delaware segment for the Snow Hill, Maryland line.
 
They list a Town of Queponco and the nice station there. The = station name=20 is Queponco, however the town is named NEWARK, MD. where it is = located.
 
I donated the station signs which are on the station as I was = involved with=20 the station restoration a few years ago. I also have several artifacts = on=20 display inside the station also.
 
Lee Burbage
PRRT&HS  1943
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C33775.92A209A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry Fitch" Subject: [PRR] PRR X42? Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 23:00:17 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C3377F.B7C940E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello PRR Folks, Could someone take some of their precious time to share with me a brief rundown on the PRR X42? When built?, Why?, How many? Typical service? Thanks in Advance, Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C3377F.B7C940E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello PRRare ks,
 
Could someone take some of their precious = time to share=20 with me a brief rundown on the PRR X42?
When built?, Why?, How many?  Typical=20 service?
 
Thanks in Advance,
 
 
Harry=20 Fitch
 
prrk4s@msn.com =
 
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C3377F.B7C940E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 12:47:27 -0500 From: "Rev. Bob 'Bob' Crispen" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh Map Christopher Chany said on Friday, June 20, 2003 at 9:07:50 AM: > Someone on the list a few weeks (or months) ago asked about the Pittsburgh > map. Me, at least. > Extra maps of the Pittsburgh area, printed when the Society's Pittsburgh > Steel City book was first offered in 1996 are again available for sale. > It is a double-sided foldout (25" x 38") 1924 Industrial Map of the > Pittsburgh District, at $4 each, postpaid. Contact Ivan Frantz (see > address elsewhetp:/n newsletter) or order at the e-store. On order now. Thanks. -- Rev. Bob "Bob" Crispen bob at crispen dot org What we're looking for: destinations. What we end up getting: journeys. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 13:53:53 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR X42? From: Jerry Britton > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3139048433_40706821 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable On 6/20/03 11:00 PM, "Harry Fitch" wrote: > Could someone take some of their precious time to share with me a brief > rundown on the PRR X42? > When built?, Why?, How many? Typical service? > =20 Built 1950 by Altoona. Ten cars, #2540-2549. Two single doors on each side. 60=B9 inside length. Used for mail storage. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- --B_3139048433_40706821 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] PRR X42? On 6/20/03 11:00 PM, "Harry Fitch" <prrk4= s@msn.com> wrote:

= Could someone take some of their precious time to share with me a brief rund= own on the PRR X42?
When built?, Why?, How many?  Typical service?

Built 1950 by Altoona. Ten cars, #2540-2549. Two single doors on each side.= 60’ inside length. Used for mail storage.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com  &= nbsp;  Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossi= ngs",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "= Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "M= S", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------
 --B_3139048433_40706821-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 15:58:42 EDT Subject: [PRR] P85 Coach --part1_a.321e9227.2c2612f2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since several of you have commented that the Des Plaines Hobby's HO model is a gem, is there a chance they would be approachable about producing a run of these cars on a reservation basis. Do they have a website or e-mail address? Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 --part1_a.321e9227.2c2612f2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Since several of you have commented that the De= s Plaines Hobby's HO model is a gem,  is there a chance they would be a= pproachable about producing a run of these cars on a reservation basis. = ;  Do they have a website or e-mail address?

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346 --part1_a.321e9227.2c2612f2_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 16:03:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR X42? --part1_3c.3161e984.2c26142e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry, The use of the class X42 is somewhat of a misnomer as this was primarily a passenger service/mail service car. It is listed in the ORPTE and not in the ORER. IN 1953 they are listed as an "MR" postal storage car. This was a 60' (IL) car with two 7' doors built in August 1950. A total of 10 cars (2540 - 2549) were built. They were mail storage cars and usually traveled as headend cars on passenger or mail trains. (I suspect but have no documentation that reference to 60 MS cars in consist sheets can refer to these. Obvioulsy there were not enough X42 cars to meet all of these requirements. The cars were most likely acquired to supplement the mail baggage and baggage cars being used in mail service.) The doors were spaced at approximately the same spacing as doors on side-by-side 40' (X29?) mail cars. This allowed for the car to be unloaded at two openings and/or "compartmentalized" for unloading at two different locations. See picture page 84 PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment Vol.1 Rich Orr --part1_3c.3161e984.2c26142e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jerry,

The use of the class X42 is somewhat of a misnomer as this was primarily a p= assenger service/mail service car.  It is listed in the ORPTE and not i= n the ORER.  IN 1953 they are listed as an "MR" postal storage car.&nbs= p; This was a 60' (IL) car with two 7' doors built in August 1950.  A t= otal of 10 cars (2540 - 2549) were built.  They were mail storage cars=20= and usually traveled as headend cars on passenger or mail trains.  (I s= uspect but have no documentation that reference to 60 MS cars in consist she= ets can refer to these.  Obvioulsy there were not enough X42 cars to me= et all of these requirements.  The cars were most likely acquired to su= pplement the mail baggage and baggage cars being used in mail service.) = ; The doors were spaced at approximately the same spacing as doors on side-b= y-side 40' (X29?) mail cars.  This allowed for the car to be unloaded a= t two openings and/or "compartmentalized" for unloading at two different loc= ations.

See picture page 84 PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment Vol.1=

Rich Orr --part1_3c.3161e984.2c26142e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh Map Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 18:05:03 -0500 > > Extra maps of the Pittsburgh area, printed when the Society's Pittsburgh > > Steel City book was first offered in 1996 are again available for sale. Either I got things swapped around or people are being careless with their titles. The map I have of the Pittsburgh area was included in the publication: The Pennsylvania Railroad's Golden Triangle. It was not included in my copy of The Pennsy in the Steel City. Both Pittsburgh books. Again unless they fell loose and I reinserted in different books. Only bring it up because the initial thread started with someone saying they picked up the Steel City Book and were concerned they did not have the map. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pennsy Nut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh Map Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 19:55:03 -0500 Hi Bob You are correct in that the map was included in "The Pennsy in the Steel City". It must have been replaced in the wrong book. I don't have the 'golden triangle' book, only the 'steel city'. And now that the map is available from PRRTHS, all one has to do is go to the web site and order it. Or for that matter, for those who don't even have the book, order the whole thing. It's a great book, and well worth having ~~ Just for Pennsy Fans. SPF's that is. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 & Proud SPF ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Zoeller" <----pf@wi.rr.com> To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Saturday, 21 June, 2003 6:05 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh Map Extra maps of the Pittsburgh area, printed when the Society's Pittsburgh Steel City book was first offered in 1996 are again available for sale. Either I got things swapped around or people are being careless with their titles. The map I have of the Pittsburgh area was included in the publication: The Pennsylvania Railroad's Golden Triangle. It was not included in my copy of The Pennsy in the Steel City. Both Pittsburgh books. Again unless they fell loose and I reinserted in different books. Only bring it up because the initial thread started with someone saying they picked up the Steel City Book and were concerned they did not have the map. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR X42? Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 21:01:22 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008F_01C33838.45485C40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rich Orr wrote: See picture page 84 PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment = Vol.1 Also see "Pennsylvania RR's X42 Boxcars" by Rich Burg with plans by = Chuck Yungkurth in the October 1999 RMC. Ben Hom ------=_NextPart_000_008F_01C33838.45485C40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Rich Orr wrote:
See picture page 84 PRR Color = Guide to=20 Freight and Passenger Equipment Vol.1
 
Also see "Pennsylvania RR's X42 Boxcars" by Rich Burg = with plans by=20 Chuck Yungkurth in the October 1999 RMC.
 
 
Ben Hom
------=_NextPart_000_008F_01C33838.45485C40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 11:14:56 +1000 From: "Mick Molloy" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Name Recognition and Coaching of Manufacturers I have to disagree to parts of points 1 & 3 Jerry made. Point 2 would, I think, be, probably more close to the truth. While many modellers may choose a road or locality due to their age or= where they lived/lived, this is not always the case. No-one can deny that I am an avid Pennsy modellers. And have been for three= decades. While I'm a bit older than Jerry (1959 vintage) I've never seen the Pennsy. I lhave always lived in South Eastern Australia and have been separated by= many thousands of miles from anything of PRR prototype. I have been a railroad modeller since childhood. I was drawn to the Pennsy= in a roundabout fashion when I fell in love with the MILW Bipolars (I'd= still love to posess one!) and then heavy electric traction in general. I= think it was only natural that I progressed rapidly through to the DD1,= GG1, the E##s, and the like. Others may have similar stories. I know one modellers here who was= facinated with the area of the NE corridor and expanded his modelling from= that point. I'm sure there are others. Jerry's age arguement also doesn't explain the fact that in the world if= virtual modelling (eg Auran's Trainz program, and Microsoft's Train= Simulator) the huge demand and large number of requests for GG1s. So much= so that it is now a part of the publishers' initial rosters. Anyway thats my $0.03AU (at .667 it should come in at about $0.02US!) Happy modelling, Mick Molloy Melb, Aust *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 20/06/2003 at 3:57 PM Jerry Britton did electronicly scribble: >On Friday, June 20, 2003, at 03:46 PM, b.hom@att.net wrote: > >> More recently, at least one longtime supplier's sales rep was quoted >> as having >> complained that "Sales are decreasing because Pennsy fans are dying >> off". >> >> >> The other half of the answer back to this guy should have been, "well, >> everybody else's fans are dying off too." Get real! > >I disagree. Unfortunately, it is a valid point. > >We recently had an extended discussion on the Atlas N Scale Forum. >InterMountain made the comment that the PRR is a "second tier" railroad >in terms of sales. The fact that PRR fans are "dying off" is just one >aspect. Consider three additional factors that likely reduce PRR model >sales: > >1) Anyone born since 1965 or so won't be as likely to be interested in >the PRR since they never saw it. (I saw it but don't remember it, >having been a 1962 model.) They would take interest in a road that >existed at the time of their early years, at best. > >2) Color. All the manufacturers pointed out that a lot of modelers just >run trains and don't take into account prototypical accuracy. They mix >and match everything. This is one reason Santa Fe continues to thrive >so well. > >3) Presence today. A lot of other fallen flags still have symbols that >hang around as a reminder. "BNSF" is pretty obvious about its Santa Fe >roots. All PRR has to show are small (4"?) letters under the road >numbers of some Norfolk Southern diesels. And PRR is a road name that >is four generations ago (NS, Conrail, PC, PRR). > >All valid points, I believe. >----------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. And thus finishes this communication from Jerry Britton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh Map Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 21:20:57 -0400 Bob, Both "Pittsburgh " books came with map enclosures. "The Pennsy in the Steel City" had a 25" x 38" Pennsylvania RR System, Central Region, Industrial Map of the Pittsburgh District, dated August 1924. It includes all railroads in the area. On the reverse side is a map of the Pgh station interlockings BU, PH, US and US; an 1855 Pittsburgh map of downtown and Allegheny showing locations of PRR stations to the present station; CM interlocking (junction of Brilliant Branch; several track diagrams of Strip District, 11th to 51st streets; and Duquesne Freight House, and a scale drawing of US Tower. The map from the "The Pennsylvania Railroad's Golden Triangle" book is a double-sided fold out 11" x 40". It is an Alignment and Profile trackmap of the P. F.W & C. from Pittsburgh west through Conway Yard to Beaver Falls, dated July 26, 1920. Trust me. (I made them!) The Steel City map is the one now available through the PRRT&HS as the books are almost sold out except for a few recently unearthed copies. (Get them while you can - shameless plug.) The Golden Triangle map is not yet being sold separately as the book is still in stock. Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Zoeller To: PRR-Talk Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 7:05 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh Map > > > > Extra maps of the Pittsburgh area, printed when the Society's Pittsburgh > > > Steel City book was first offered in 1996 are again available for sale. > > Either I got things swapped around or people are being careless with their > titles. The map I have of the Pittsburgh area was included in the > publication: The Pennsylvania Railroad's Golden Triangle. It was not > included in my copy of The Pennsy in the Steel City. Both Pittsburgh books. > Again unless they fell loose and I reinserted in different books. > > Only bring it up because the initial thread started with someone saying they > picked up the Steel City Book and were concerned they did not have the map. > > Bob Zoeller > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 00:35:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] MR reviews of Alco and ECW P70s Hello list, MR reviewed the Alco P70 coach in the January 1983 issue, pages 44-48. MR reviewed the Eastern Car Works P70fbr with arch roof and the PB70 combine in the June 1985 issue, pages 40-42. Doug __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 18:56:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR Marker List, Here is an interesting item. I never seen one before or for that matter, heard of these before. This is an Elevation Above Sea Level Marker. http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000991.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000992.jpg This Marker is made of Bronze. It is embossed with the following text " PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD --250 DOLLARS FINE FOR DISTURBING THIS MARK-- ELEVATION ABOVE SEA" Unfortunaatly, no elevation in feet is inscribed. But I know for a fact this marker came from the Conway Yds near the location of the old scrap dock. It was removed years ago. It was embedded and had to be removed from a concrete slab. Question. How common were these? Any other specific locations these could be found? Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 19:07:05 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Marker --part1_124.233b5006.2c279099_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sounds like a 'bench mark' used by surveyors. Gives them a known location on the earths surface to begin their surveying. Some gave latitude and longitude, others gave elevation. They were often attached to bridges, etc...structures that were likely to be around for a while. Bill --part1_124.233b5006.2c279099_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sounds like a 'bench mark' used by surveyors.  Gi= ves them a known location on the earths surface to begin their surveying.&nb= sp; Some gave latitude and longitude, others gave elevation.  They were= often attached to bridges, etc...structures that were likely to be around f= or a while.  Bill --part1_124.233b5006.2c279099_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Marker Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 17:37:28 -0700 Gary, It's called a benchmark. The USGS usually sets them but private companies may well also set them (as the PRR did with this one) They are used in surveying to establish a base elevation. They may or may not have an elevation inscribed, but somewhere in the office of the system engineer there is a logbook with that particular bm listed and the associated elevation and datum are listed as well. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 18:56:01 -0400 (EDT) mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) wrote: > List, > > Here is an interesting item. I never seen one before > or for that > matter, heard of these before. This is an Elevation Above > Sea Level > Marker. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Marker Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 21:24:46 -0400 Gary- All responses have been correct. As Bill noted below they were applied to permanent structures. An interesting note is if you look in Jeremy F. Plant's/Bob Yanosey's book "Pennsylvania, Standard Railroad of the World Volume 1" That there is a picture of a surveyor near the Enola-Harrisburg Flyover on the West side. My guess is that the bridge was a benchmark for the PRR. Theres my $0.02 for now. John ----------------------------------------------------------- Bill Wrote: They were often attached to bridges, etc...structures that were likely to be around for a while. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 21:35:43 EDT Subject: [PRR] C-Liner details too green --part1_64.315de3cb.2c27b36f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If the model is to be weathered, another old trick is to lightly overspray with the correct shade of paint. This coating is put on just a weathering coat would be with the paint thinned down to more than 50% thinner. Not only does the color darken but a slightly weathered effect occurs. This technique does not work if you want a brand new finish. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 --part1_64.315de3cb.2c27b36f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   If the model is to be weathered, another old tr= ick is to lightly overspray with the correct shade of paint.  This coat= ing is put on just a weathering coat would be with the paint thinned down to= more than 50% thinner.  Not only does the color darken but a slightly=20= weathered effect occurs.  This technique does not work if you wa= nt a brand new finish.

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346 --part1_64.315de3cb.2c27b36f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Marker Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 22:19:11 -0400 Gary, I have seen (maybe I even have it!) a small PRR book listing the locations of all the benchmarks on a given division or region as to their height and where they were placed: end of bridge abutment, corner of a foundation, concrete pad, etc. I recall tracking one down on the Monon Division one time. Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Gary Mittner ; Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 8:37 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Marker > Gary, > > It's called a benchmark. The USGS usually sets them but > private companies may well also set them (as the PRR did > with this one) They are used in surveying to establish a > base elevation. They may or may not have an elevation > inscribed, but somewhere in the office of the system > engineer there is a logbook with that particular bm listed > and the associated elevation and datum are listed as well. > > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ > > On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 18:56:01 -0400 (EDT) > mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) wrote: > > List, > > > > Here is an interesting item. I never seen one before > > or for that > > matter, heard of these before. This is an Elevation Above > > Sea Level > > Marker. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 03:27:30 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Name Recognition and Coaching of Manufacturers --part1_72.2f185f8a.2c2805e2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry and all... > An interesting idea, an award from the Society itself, given annually (or > not) to one who has helped create accurate PRR models. > I don't believe and award is necessary... No reason to toot a horn, just give us a chance to bring more realistic projects to the plate. Finding modelers to buy Pennsy products is not as difficult as finding people willing to make the investment. The recent 4-4-2 is just another reason to sit up and take notice. More good things are coming. The P85br is not as far off as you might think. I couldn't disagree more than with those who say that the society would not be as successful if they promoted more modeling within... Generating cash for a society through the promotion of modeling projects for society members is good business if handled correctly, that is a fact. But making a blanket statement is like saying the Santa Fe, UP, SP and CB&Q guys are not doing it right ... what a mistake to believe that. I do agree that the Keystone is not likely the correct forum. Modeling and History work hand in hand... There would be no reason to tell the story if there was no one willing to listen and modelers make some of the best listeners, fortunately. So don't bite the hand that feeds you. It is still a business. Greg Martin --part1_72.2f185f8a.2c2805e2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jerry and all...

An interesting idea, an award f= rom the Society itself, given annually (or not) to one who has helped create= accurate PRR models.


I don't believe and award is necessary... No reason to toot a horn, just giv= e us a chance to bring more realistic projects to the plate.  Finding m= odelers to buy Pennsy products is not as difficult as finding people willing= to make the investment. The recent 4-4-2 is just another reason to sit up a= nd take notice. More good things are coming.  The P85br is not as far o= ff as you might think.

I couldn't disagree more than with those who say that the society would not=20= be as successful if they promoted more modeling within... Generating cash fo= r a society through the promotion of modeling projects for society members i= s good business if handled correctly, that is a fact.  But making a bla= nket statement is like saying the Santa Fe, UP, SP and CB&Q guys are not= doing it right ... what a mistake to believe that.  I do agree that th= e Keystone is not likely the correct forum.  Modeling and History work=20= hand in hand... There would be no reason to tell the story if there was no o= ne willing to listen and modelers make some of the best listeners, fortunate= ly. So don't bite the hand that feeds you. It is still a business.

Greg Martin --part1_72.2f185f8a.2c2805e2_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 07:56:36 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Marker It's a "bench mark" and the PRR surveyors would know what elevation is was or is...as well as the latitude and longitude of the marker. All RR surveys would be "tied" to a series of these markers which were permanently mounted on an immovable item like a rock face, huge chunk of concrete, etc. hence the fine for disturbing it. They are similar to US Coast and Geodetic Survey markers which are all over the country. They are noted on topo maps by a special marker and used in the pre GPS days to locate things. Jim McDaniel, formerly the "back end" of a survey crew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] GG1 detail parts Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:50:24 +0000 Does anybody know if anyone makes the lower ladder steps that hang below the carbody for an HO GG1? Has anybody succesfully fabricated them and have a method? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 11:08:55 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 detail parts >Does anybody know if anyone makes the lower ladder steps that hang below the >carbody for an HO GG1? Has anybody succesfully fabricated them and have a >method? I assume you mean in HO? ________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pennsy Nut" Subject: [PRR] Keystone & Snapper & Awards Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 12:11:39 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C33980.9A04AA60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi I always thought the Keystone was the vehicle for the prototype. = PERIOD! And that the Snapper was the vehicle for the modeling. PERIOD! Whether they are a separate publication or a combined one does not make = one iota of difference. Therefore, why not "just do it" the way the Society intended it to be = done. And forget all about any kind of "awards". Just acknowledge those who = do the most for the Society and let others do what they want. Just as I = do, when an individual does something worthwhile to the hobby, etc. Like you, Greg. For the unselfishness of working so hard to get DGLE = accurate. Etc. You don't do it for an award. You do it because, well, = just because! Right? All IMHO Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist & Proud SPF Member of PRRTHS #1204 President of Penn Texas Chapter of PRRT&HS ----- Original Message -----=20 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com=20 To: jerry@pennsyrr.com ; RickTipton@aol.com=20 Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; prr-modeling@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Monday, 23 June, 2003 2:27 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Name Recognition and Coaching of Manufacturers Jerry and all... An interesting idea, an award from the Society itself, given = annually (or not) to one who has helped create accurate PRR models. I don't believe and award is necessary... No reason to toot a horn, = just give us a chance to bring more realistic projects to the plate. = Finding modelers to buy Pennsy products is not as difficult as finding = people willing to make the investment. The recent 4-4-2 is just another = reason to sit up and take notice. More good things are coming. The = P85br is not as far off as you might think.=20 I couldn't disagree more than with those who say that the society = would not be as successful if they promoted more modeling within... = Generating cash for a society through the promotion of modeling projects = for society members is good business if handled correctly, that is a = fact. But making a blanket statement is like saying the Santa Fe, UP, = SP and CB&Q guys are not doing it right ... what a mistake to believe = that. I do agree that the Keystone is not likely the correct forum. = Modeling and History work hand in hand... There would be no reason to = tell the story if there was no one willing to listen and modelers make = some of the best listeners, fortunately. So don't bite the hand that = feeds you. It is still a business.=20 Greg Martin ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C33980.9A04AA60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi
 
I always thought the Keystone was the vehicle = for the=20 prototype.  PERIOD!
 
And that the Snapper was the vehicle for the=20 modeling.  PERIOD!
 
Whether they are a separate publication or a = combined=20 one does not make one iota of difference.
 
Therefore, why not "just do it" the way the = Society=20 intended it to be done.
 
And forget all about ant_00nd of = "awards".  Just=20 acknowledge those who do the most for the Society and let others do what = they=20 want.  Just as I do, when an individual does something worthwhile = to the=20 hobby, etc.
 
Like you, Greg.  For the unselfishness = of working=20 so hard to get DGLE accurate. Etc.  You don't do it for an = award.  You=20 do it because, well, just because!  Right?
 
All IMHO
 
Morgan Bilbo
Ferroequinologist & Proud = SPF
Member of PRRTHS #1204
President of Penn Texas Chapter of=20 PRRT&HS
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 TGREGMRTN@aol.com
To: jerry@pennsyrr.com ; RickTipton@aol.com
Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; prr-modeling@yahoogroups.com= =20
Sent: Monday, 23 June, 2003 = 2:27 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Name = Recognition=20 and Coaching of Manufacturers

Jerry and all...

An interesting idea, an award from the Society itself, = given=20 annually (or not) to one who has helped create accurate PRR=20 models.


I don't believe and award is = necessary... No=20 reason to toot a horn, just give us a chance to bring more realistic = projects=20 to the plate.  Finding modelers to buy Pennsy products is not as=20 difficult as finding people willing to make the investment. The recent = 4-4-2=20 is just another reason to sit up and take notice. More good things are = coming.  The P85br is not as far off as you might think. =

I=20 couldn't disagree more than with those who say that the society would = not be=20 as successful if they promoted more modeling within... Generating cash = for a=20 society through the promotion of modeling projects for society members = is good=20 business if handled correctly, that is a fact.  But making a = blanket=20 statement is like saying the Santa Fe, UP, SP and CB&Q guys are = not doing=20 it right ... what a mistake to believe that.  I do agree that the = Keystone is not likely the correct forum.  Modeling and History = work hand=20 in hand... There would be no reason to tell the story if there was no = one=20 willing to listen and modelers make some of the best listeners, = fortunately.=20 So don't bite the hand that feeds you. It is still a business. =

Greg=20 Martin ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C33980.9A04AA60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 11:27:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] Pre-war PRR smoothside paint schemes --0-2100678155-1056392833=:46713 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Is it safe to say that regarding pre-war PRR smoothside cars that excepting those that were originally painted in an interchange scheme, the pre-war smoothsides were all delivered in FOM paint scheme? Were any pre-war smoothsides ever painted in the "economy" scheme, i.e., Tuscan body but no striping, "Pullman" on the letterboard? Thanks in advance. Ron Di Orio --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-2100678155-1056392833=:46713 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Is it safe to say that regarding pre-war PRR smoothside cars that excepting those that were originally painted in an interchange scheme, the pre-war smoothsides were all delivered in FOM paint scheme?  Were any pre-war smoothsides ever painted in the "economy" scheme, i.e., Tuscan body but no striping, "Pullman" on the letterboard?
 
Thanks in advance.
 
Ron Di Orio

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-2100678155-1056392833=:46713-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew S. Miller" Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 14:37:16 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Pre-war PRR smoothside paint schemes I've seen builder's photos of postwar P85b's painted in economy scheme. But that did not last long. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Ronald Di Orio wrote: > Is it safe to say that regarding pre-war PRR smoothside cars that > excepting those that were originally painted in an interchange scheme, > the pre-war smoothsides were all delivered in FOM paint scheme? Were > any pre-war smoothsides ever painted in the "economy" scheme, i.e., > Tuscan body but no striping, "Pullman" on the letterboard? Thanks in > advance. Ron Di Orio > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! -- ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 14:35:52 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 detail parts I've used Cal scale 190-450 PA/PB and FA ladders. You need to notch the frame out and epoxy them in place. They might not be exact replacements but they do have the look.---------------- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 14:37:16 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pre-war PRR smoothside paint schemes I've seen builder's photos of postwar P85b's painted in economy scheme. But that did not last long. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Ronald Di Orio wrote: > Is it safe to say that regarding pre-war PRR smoothside cars that > excepting those that were originally painted in an interchange scheme, > the pre-war smoothsides were all delivered in FOM paint scheme? Were > any pre-war smoothsides ever painted in the "economy" scheme, i.e., > Tuscan body but no striping, "Pullman" on the letterboard? Thanks in > advance. Ron Di Orio > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 11:27:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Pre-war PRR smoothside paint schemes Is it safe to say that regarding pre-war PRR smoothside cars that excepting those that were originally painted in an interchange scheme, the pre-war smoothsides were all delivered in FOM paint scheme? Were any pre-war smoothsides ever painted in the "economy" scheme, i.e., Tuscan body but no striping, "Pullman" on the letterboard? Thanks in advance. Ron Di Orio --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] trains.com poll Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 16:55:17 -0400 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C339C9.2B54B60C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" OK folks, Are we going to let the UP win. Trains.com poll this week is If you had a chance to take a cab ride in a steam loco which one would you choose. Big boy has 39% K4 9% cab forward 14% NYC Streamlined Hudson 11%. We can't sit by and let this happen Go to www.trains.com scroll down and: VOTE NOW!!! Chris Chany ------_=_NextPart_001_01C339C9.2B54B60C Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
OK folks, Are we going to let the = UP=20 win.  Trains.com poll this week is If you had a chance to take a = cab ride=20 in a steam loco which one would you choose.  Big boy has 39%  = K4 9%=20 cab forward 14% NYC Streamlined Hudson 11%.  We can't sit by and = let this=20 happen Go to www.trains.com = scroll down=20 and:   VOTE NOW!!!
 
Chris = Chany
------_=_NextPart_001_01C339C9.2B54B60C-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] trains.com poll Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:12:10 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C339AA.953AFB40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris & Listers, T-1, closely followed by Q-2. T-1 at speed in the flatlands, of course. = Q-2 west out of Altoona, over the hill, then up to speed down the other = side to Pittsburgh and west. Oh man, do you have me salivating! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chany, Christopher=20 To: 'PRR-talk@dsop.com'=20 Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 4:55 PM Subject: [PRR] trains.com poll OK folks, Are we going to let the UP win. Trains.com poll this week = is If you had a chance to take a cab ride in a steam loco which one = would you choose. Big boy has 39% K4 9% cab forward 14% NYC = Streamlined Hudson 11%. We can't sit by and let this happen Go to = www.trains.com scroll down and: VOTE NOW!!! Chris Chany ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C339AA.953AFB40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Chris & Listers,
 
T-1, closely followed by Q-2.  T-1 = at speed in=20 the flatlands, of course.  Q-2 west out of Altoona, over the hill, = then up=20 to speed down the other side to Pittsburgh and west.  Oh man, = do  you=20 have me salivating!
 
Bill Bigler
Big Flats NY
Modeling = PRR Renovo=20 &
     Williamsport WWII
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Chany,=20 Christopher
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 = 4:55 PM
Subject: [PRR] trains.com = poll

OK folks, Are we going to let = the UP=20 win.  Trains.com poll this week is If you had a chance to take a = cab ride=20 in a steam loco which one would you choose.  Big boy has = 39%  K4 9%=20 cab forward 14% NYC Streamlined Hudson 11%.  We can't sit by and = let this=20 happen Go to www.trains.com = scroll=20 down and:   VOTE NOW!!!
 
Chris=20 Chany
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C339AA.953AFB40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pennsy Nut" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Tool Car by WSM Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:51:22 -0500 Thanks Bruce I admit I forgot about Rob's excellent site. FYI ~~ I have an Epson printer that allows a little zoom and such. So, when I print from Rob's site, I can zoom just enough to fill the paper when printed. If I try to print from his "300 or large" size, it don't fit the printed page. So, I now have a print of this TA. And from you, now know that it's grey. Now for the numbers? The only one I know of is what's in PP3, #60. I rechecked the 1943 ORER and still can't find it. Unless it's under another class? And there must be more numbers, didn't they have more than one? Isn't research fun?!!! Thanks. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 & Proud SPF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] trains.com poll Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:29:59 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C339AD.12275980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I voted, but seems to me that a poll where you can only choose from a = predetermined list of choices without even provision for write in votes = is not even close to statistically valid. And of course they didn't = include about my dozen or so top locomotives (except the K-4), both = Pennsy and non-Pennsy. Yes Virginia, there were superb non-PRR steamers = such as . . . . . Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chany, Christopher=20 To: 'PRR-talk@dsop.com'=20 Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 4:55 PM Subject: [PRR] trains.com poll OK folks, Are we going to let the UP win. Trains.com poll this week = is If you had a chance to take a cab ride in a steam loco which one = would you choose. Big boy has 39% K4 9% cab forward 14% NYC = Streamlined Hudson 11%. We can't sit by and let this happen Go to = www.trains.com scroll down and: VOTE NOW!!! Chris Chany ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C339AD.12275980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I voted, but seems to me that a poll = where you can=20 only choose from a predetermined list of choices without even provision = for=20 write in votes is not even close to statistically valid.  And = of=20 course they didn't include about my dozen or so top locomotives (except = the=20 K-4), both Pennsy and non-Pennsy.  Yes Virginia, there were superb = non-PRR=20 steamers such as . . . . .
 
Bill Bigler
Big Flats NY
Modeling = PRR Renovo=20 &
     Williamsport WWII
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Chany,=20 Christopher
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 = 4:55 PM
Subject: [PRR] trains.com = poll

OK folks, Are we going to let = the UP=20 win.  Trains.com poll this week is If you had a chance to take a = cab ride=20 in a steam loco which one would you choose.  Big boy has = 39%  K4 9%=20 cab forward 14% NYC Streamlined Hudson 11%.  We can't sit by and = let this=20 happen Go to www.trains.com = scroll=20 down and:   VOTE NOW!!!
 
Chris=20 Chany
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C339AD.12275980-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 18:06:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Re: class "Q-2" between Altoona and Pittsburgh. It was VERY rare for PRR class "Q-2" locomotive to run between Altoona and Pittsburgh. Most times when they did operated between the two points, they ran light to Altoona Works for repairs. I have various photos of Q-2s in and around Altoona and all are running light to and from Crestline. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 18:19:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: class "Q-2" between Altoona and Pittsburgh. Dave, Bill, I recall reading somewhere that 1 Q2 was assigned to the Middle Div. Perhaps an MP229 from the late 40's era can shed light on the exact number and if in fact this was true. Other than that they were lines west locos that did from time to time come into Conway Yds. and possibly Altoona on its way for Class Repairs. There is a pic of a Q2 in one of the Pittsburgh Books by Ken Kobus/Jack Concoli. I think it is the second volume. It shows a Q2 Westbound at Rochester Pa. The Q could be on a return trip to the west from a run to Conway or maybe returned light from Altoona for class repairs and picked up a train in Conway. Anything is possible. There is also film/video evidence of Q's and train eastbound on the Curve as well.......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 19:27:38 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR T&HS and PRR modeling Hi All, I have been a member of the PRR T&HS since 1989, attending my first convention in 1990. My modeling skills and interests in the PRR grew and developed together from that time until now. One just complimented the other as an evolution. I proudly accept the names of Slobbering Pennsy Freak and Rivet Counter together, as I should in good fun. It was an early convention for me, maybe my 2nd or third, when I had a model being displayed. An attendee gave a quick look at my model, as well as the rest in the room. I asked him kind of proudly, what he thought of it. His response as he was walking away was "It's just a model. I am interested in them." I was a little shocked at first. I never thought that anyone at that convention, the once a year nationwide gathering of the SPF Brotherhood, would not be interested in modeling. Shortly after that, I realized that he could have experienced the PRR FIRST HAND. As I am about to be 41, and on the younger side of the membership, the modeling is the best way I CAN experience the PRR. The Keystone has always been a first class publication to me. As the membership changes, perhaps the focus of the membership will change slightly as well. I welcomed the decision to include modeling in the Keystone. And while I have not contributed to that aspect yet, I do contribute where I can. The society and the Keystone can and will be just fine with a little evolution. I believe that Chuck Blardone and the officers are continually fulfilling the purpose of promoting the PRR. Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 19:27:38 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] PRR T&HS and PRR modeling Hi All, I have been a member of the PRR T&HS since 1989, attending my first Benvention in 1990. My modeling skills and interests in the PRR grew and developed together from that time until now. One just complimented the other as an evolution. I proudly accept the names of Slobbering Pennsy Freak and Rivet Counter together, as I should in good fun. It was an early convention for me, maybe my 2nd or third, when I had a model being displayed. An attendee gave a quick look at my model, as well as the rest in the room. I asked him kind of proudly, what he thought of it. His response as he was walking away was "It's just a model. I am interested in them." I was a little shocked at first. I never thought that anyone at that convention, the once a year nationwide gathering of the SPF Brotherhood, would not be interested in modeling. Shortly after that, I realized that he could have experienced the PRR FIRST HAND. As I am about to be 41, and on the younger side of the membership, the modeling is the best way I CAN experience the PRR. The Keystone has always been a first class publication to me. As the membership changes, perhaps the focus of the membership will change slightly as well. I welcomed the decision to include modeling in the Keystone. And while I have not contributed to that aspect yet, I do contribute where I can. The society and the Keystone can and will be just fine with a little evolution. I believe that Chuck Blardone and the officers are continually fulfilling the purpose of promoting the PRR. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 19:29:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: class "Q-2" between Altoona and Pittsburgh. Hi Gary, I too saw the movie with the Q2 eastbound on Horseshoe. It's been a while since I've watch it. If i remember correctly, you can't see if the Q2 is pulling a train. Quite a few Lines West PRRT&HS members that I have ask about Q2s traveling to Altoona have told me that Q2s run light to for class repairs. I have seen one photo of a pair of Q2s running light. No caption for photo but they are running on a 2 track line in the mountains. Maybe the Sang Hallow or Conemaugh line. As for a Q2 assigned to the Middle Division, I would love to know more about that! Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 22:13:25 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Marker Greetings to Gary, Jerry and the List: A friend of mine recently purchased a 150-page, PRR-published book dated 1906, listing the locations of PRR's benchmarks. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ---------------------------------------------- Gary Mittner wrote: >List, > > Here is an interesting item. I never seen one before or for that >matter, heard of these before. This is an Elevation Above Sea Level >Marker. http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000991.jpg >http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000992.jpg This Marker is made >of Bronze. It is embossed with the following text " PENNSYLVANIA >RAILROAD --250 DOLLARS FINE FOR DISTURBING THIS MARK-- ELEVATION ABOVE >SEA" > Unfortunaatly, no elevation in feet is inscribed. But I know for a >fact this marker came from the Conway Yds near the location of the old >scrap dock. It was removed years ago. It was embedded and had to be >removed from a concrete slab. > > Question. How common were these? Any other specific locations these >could be found? Thanks, Gary > > > > > >Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art >Work! > >PRR K4s Loco Pics: >http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ > >PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: > >http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > >and...... > >PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: > >http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 22:20:58 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Re: [Fwd: M 10000 Re: [PRR-FAX] Hortushoe Curve Beers?, ...] Greetings to all: UP M-10000 traveled westward across Pennsylvania via PRR on the evening of February 18, 1934. It passed over Rockville Bridge in the late afternoon and hit Horseshoe Curve after dark. Photo of M-10000 westbound at Marysville Yard with Rockville Bridge in distant background appears on Page 73 of Rockville Bridge: Rails Across the Susquehanna. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. davep wrote: >A LONG time ago.... >(Things like this get stuck in my memory...) >8)>>> > >Found the video. >Short version: > Possible, doesn't specifically show. >Details: > M 10000 Routing given as 'Chicago to DC', details > not given. (I ASSUME more or less as for > "National Limited?) > Various fiddling and diddling DC to Baltimore and > return. > Departure: > DC to Baltimore to Pittsburgh to .... > Details, again, not given. Except: > Baltimore to Pittsburgh COULD have been via > Horseshoe curve. > Mileage is given as: > 244 miles BALTIMORE to PITTSBURGH. > Comparisons of that to various possible routes might > be instructive... > I didn't note the dates, but this was 'January/February' > of year of introduction (1934ish)" > > I'd guess someone in 'UP History' groups might > know.... > > >ahartprr137@aol.com wrote: > > > Dear Folks, > > The below brings up an obvious question: > > Did Union Pacific M-10000 ever go 'round > > Horseshoe Curve? > > If yes, when? > > Be well, > > Jon > best > dwp > >...the net of a million lies... > Vernor Vinge >There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. > -me >...for he has read everything, and written nothing... > A J Raffles > > > >------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> >Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. >http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM >---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > >"PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. > >To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = >PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 22:28:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Marker Hi Dan, Thanks for the note. A 1906 Book? Hmmm, then these Benchmarks go pretty far back then. When was Conway Yds. first built, laid out? Would this Benchmark have been from about that same time? I was told this came from the Scrap Dock area there. Could your freind supply any info on any Conway Benchmarks as to when it was placed and if it states exactly where, etc. This is getting interesting... ......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 22:41:12 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: class "Q-2" between Altoona and Pittsburgh. Greetings to Gary, Jerry and the List: "Rule 2709. Other Engine Restrictions. Movement of Class J and Q engines prohibited-- Main Line--Between Banks and Bell" Source: PRR Middle Division ETT No. 6, September 16, 1945, p.76 Bell tower and interlocking was situated at Bellwood, Pa., between East Altoona and Tyrone. Banks stood at the west end of Marysville, Pa., and for many years was situated just east of the division point between the Philadelphia and Middle divisions. That's almost the entire Middle Division main line. My understanding of the reason for the restriction is that these engines were too large to fit through the Spruce Creek tunnels. PRR apparently did try to determine what it would take to improve the clearances Altoona-Philadelphia in order to accommodate these engines on through freight, but gave up after seeing the cost. Eventually, F units arrived, and they needed no clearance work at all. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ------------------------------------------------ Gary Mittner wrote: >Dave, Bill, > > I recall reading somewhere that 1 Q2 was assigned to the Middle Div. >Perhaps an MP229 from the late 40's era can shed light on the exact >number and if in fact this was true. Other than that they were lines >west locos that did from time to time come into Conway Yds. and possibly >Altoona on its way for Class Repairs. There is a pic of a Q2 in one of >the Pittsburgh Books by Ken Kobus/Jack Concoli. I think it is the second >volume. It shows a Q2 Westbound at Rochester Pa. The Q could be on a >return trip to the west from a run to Conway or maybe returned light >from Altoona for class repairs and picked up a train in Conway. Anything >is possible. There is also film/video evidence of Q's and train >eastbound on the Curve as well.......Gary > > > > > >Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art >Work! > >PRR K4s Loco Pics: >http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ > >PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: > >http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > >and...... > >PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: > >http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 23:47:27 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Keystone & Snapper & Awards --part1_102.308fe04a.2c2923cf_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Morgan writes: <<---SNIP--->> > And forget all about any kind of "awards." Just acknowledge those who do > the most for the Society and let others do what they want. Just as I do, when > an individual does something worthwhile to the hobby, etc. > > Like you, Greg. For the unselfishness of working so hard to get DGLE > accurate. Etc. You don't do it for an award. You do it because, well, just > because! Right? > > All IMHO > > Morgan Bilbo > I don't think any of us do it for an award and I would hate to see it come to that... We do because we want to preserve what we can of the Pennsy even though it might just have to be in scale... Morgan brings up the DGLE color, I try to make it as simple and as easy to duplicate as I possibly can. With the Testors mixture you can duplicate it over and over again, get the same results five years from now. K.I.S.S. 3^) Greg Martin --part1_102.308fe04a.2c2923cf_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Morgan writes:

<<---SNIP--->>

And forget all about any kind o= f "awards."  Just acknowledge those who do the most for the Society and= let others do what they want.  Just as I do, when an individual does s= omething worthwhile to the hobby, etc.

Like you, Greg.  For the unselfishness of working so hard to get DGLE a= ccurate. Etc.  You don't do it for an award.  You do it because, w= ell, just because!  Right?

All IMHO

Morgan Bilbo


I don't think any of us do it for an award and I would hate to see it come t= o that... We do because we want to preserve what we can of the Pennsy even t= hough it might just have to be in scale...  Morgan brings up the DGLE c= olor, I try to make it as simple and as easy to duplicate as I possibly can.= With the Testors mixture you can duplicate it over and over again, get the=20= same results five years from now.  K.I.S.S.  3^)

Greg Martin

--part1_102.308fe04a.2c2923cf_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 09:24:03 +0200 From: Burkhard Sanner Subject: Re: [PRR] trains.com poll Well, it is hard to compete with a Big Boy, and also with spectacular Western scenery. However, there is this other engine on the Trains poll list, which currently (8:10 GMT) is head-to-head with the K4 (both 11 %). It should at least be possible to establish the lead over an engine that had to negotiate no real mountains on its water level route. I just voted. Burkhard Sanner "Chany, Christopher" schrieb: > OK folks, Are we going to let the UP win. Trains.com poll > this week is If you had a chance to take a cab ride in a > steam loco which one would you choose. Big boy has 39% > K4 9% cab forward 14% NYC Streamlined Hudson 11%. We > can't sit by and let this happen Go to www.trains.com > scroll down and: VOTE NOW!!!Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 08:31:55 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Track and Stuctures Plans - A&S, C&PD Morning y'all, A few weeks ago, John Frantz was pondering some of his father's collection of documents when he came across "Tracks and Structures Plan 618CC-1" which covers Columbia to Shenks Mills on the C&PD and A&S. John IMMEDIATELY recognized that I might be interested and sent me a photocopy. No mean feat, as this plan is over 50' long (yeah, fifty FEET!). The plan is data as June 10, 1937, revised July 12, 1938 as built, and revised a number of additional times up to November, 1955. The plan is on a scale of 1"=100 ft, so it is highly detailed...essentailly a scale drawing of that entire section of railroad. Among the details on the plan are the location and nature (steel/wood) of every catenary pole, every stay, every signal or power wire, conduit, etc... Of course, all signals are noted, as well as phones, tool sheds, retaining walls, grade crossings (even private), bridges, culverts, flumes and land features (such as "swamp"). Even the layout of the air lines in the COLA interlocking is shown. Needless to say, this is an AWESOME resource!!!! (I'm still getting over the shock). A few interesting items were gleaned on a first pass. 1) There was a small siding off the "old" C&PD main, (which was by then the Westward C&PD track) in Washington Boro that was trailing point and ended northweest of Elizabeth street. Was there a freight house in that location? 2) There was a small yard north of the Columbia branch just before the Reading interchange and the A&S junction in Columbia. The 6 track yard was west of the Columbia Wagon Works, which was served by a siding that passed just north of the yard. The yard was not electrified, and it appears that a running track from the east end of the yard followed the Columbia Branch toward Lancaster. Front Street and the Columbia gas works bordered the Columbia Branch to the South. This is the first indication I have had of this yard...I wonder at what its purpose was given the large yard, with relatively light traffic after electrification that was about a mile away! 3) The trackwork for the Reading station in Columbia and the Reading interchange is clearly laid out...real nice! I just wish I had some more photos of the Reading station! Finally, having drunk from the well, I want MORE! This plan indicates the following T&S plans... 617-1 - The A&S east from Shenks Mills 630-1 - The C&PD east from Shenks Mills 625-1 - The Columbia Branch east from Columbia 619-1 - The A&S/Columbia Branches west from Columbia Anyone have any of these hiding in a closet???? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 09:39:44 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Track and Stuctures Plans - A&S, C&PD From: Jerry Britton Good thing you didn't build that addition yet...you're gonna need a bigger building! Now you know how I got hooked into switching scales! Valuation/similar maps are killers! On Tuesday, June 24, 2003, at 09:31 AM, Bruce F. Smith wrote: > Finally, having drunk from the well, I want MORE! This plan indicates > the > following T&S plans... > > ---------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies http://www.pit-magnus.com jbritton@pit-magnus.com Phone: 717-764-5908, ext. 394 Fax: 717-767-4092 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 10:41:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Marker List, I was curious about learning more about this Benchmark so I did a search on Google to see if I could find an all-time listing of these things. No luck but I did notice a common thread (sort of) concerning something similar. With the info I was receiving from the PRR-Talk I assumed this mark was a type of survey mark. It still could be but I was noticing on the google search that benchmarks were also used to mark high water? Could this PRR Benchmark be for that purpose also? The Flood of 1936 most likely rose over into a portion of the Conway Yds and this mark could have been set to mark the high water? The scrap dock was near the edge of the river bank I believe. Since this has no lat and long writings on it, maybe it was used just for a high water mark? Maybe not. Still learning, back to Google....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Marker Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 07:54:14 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33A60.7A92AC50 Content-Type: text/plain Gary, Benchmarks established by the PRR could have been used when they desired tight elevation control in construction. Perhaps this benchmark was used to establish horizontal control during the construction/reconstruction of Conway Yard? This would have been extremely important to the PRR when they were re-doing Conway, as it was the most state-of-the-art yard of the time, and doubtless required a great deal of accuracy on the grades of the tracks within the hump yards and class yards. Elden -----Original Message----- From: mittner@webtv.net [mailto:mittner@webtv.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 7:41 AM To: mittner@webtv.net Cc: cupper@att.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Marker List, I was curious about learning more about this Benchmark so I did a search on Google to see if I could find an all-time listing of these things. No luck but I did notice a common thread (sort of) concerning something similar. With the info I was receiving from the PRR-Talk I assumed this mark was a type of survey mark. It still could be but I was noticing on the google search that benchmarks were also used to mark high water? Could this PRR Benchmark be for that purpose also? The Flood of 1936 most likely rose over into a portion of the Conway Yds and this mark could have been set to mark the high water? The scrap dock was near the edge of the river bank I believe. Since this has no lat and long writings on it, maybe it was used just for a high water mark? Maybe not. Still learning, back to Google....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33A60.7A92AC50 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] PRR Marker

Gary,
Benchmarks established by the PRR could have been = used when they desired tight elevation control in construction.  = Perhaps this benchmark was used to establish horizontal control during = the construction/reconstruction of Conway Yard?  This would have = been extremely important to the PRR when they were re-doing Conway, as = it was the most state-of-the-art yard of the time, and doubtless = required a great deal of accuracy on the grades of the tracks within = the hump yards and class yards.

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: mittner@webtv.net [mailto:mittner@webtv.net]
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 7:41 AM
To: mittner@webtv.net
Cc: cupper@att.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Marker

List,

    I was curious about learning more = about this Benchmark so I did a
search on Google to see if I could find an all-time = listing of these
things. No luck but I did notice a common thread = (sort of) concerning
something similar. With the info I was receiving = from the PRR-Talk I
assumed this mark was a type of survey mark. It = still could be but I was
noticing on the google search that  benchmarks = were also used to mark
high water? Could this PRR Benchmark be for that = purpose also? The Flood
of 1936 most likely rose over into a portion of the = Conway Yds and this
mark could have been set to mark the high water? The = scrap dock was near
the edge of the river bank I believe. Since this has = no lat and long
writings on it, maybe it was used just for a high = water mark? Maybe not.
Still learning, back to Google....Gary   =





Come visit my PRR Pages:  Photos, Models, = Historical Items and  Art
Work!

PRR K4s Loco Pics:
http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/

PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.:

http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.h= tml

and......

PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. = Models:

http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html


---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C33A60.7A92AC50-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Chicago Metra disaster Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:37:42 +0000 The IC main line which crosses under the old PRR main east of Englewood suffered a major catastrophe in the middle of the night Sunday. A six track 100 year old wood piling bridge that spanned the B&OCT yard lead and the Cal Sag channel caught fire and burned. This effectively stopped all commuter trains, Amtrak trains using the IC and all IC freight to and from the ST. Charles airline. IC connections to IHB and GTW are south of the bridge so alternate routes are being worked out. Almost the entire commuter fleet of 120 cars had been positioned at University Park the end of the line for the Monday rush which never took place. Metra is saying they will have service restored by 7/2/03 in time for the big crush of people who utilize it to attend the Chicago fireworks show on 7/3 plus Taste of Chicago which is starting in Grant PArk. No alternative service is being offered or planned except for additional cars on the Metra line to Joliet. We are having a nightmare at rush hour since 12,000 people use this line. What normally takes me 20 minutes to get to work is taking an hour. News reports were comical in their descriptions. hell as hard as they could to find disgruntled passengers nearly all took it in stride and said accidents happen. The bridge was being worked on by a contractor that had quit work at 5PM on Sunday. The fire started in the middle of the night and the FBI investigated for sabotage or terrorist activity and didn't find anything. If you have never seen 12" creosoted piles and larger crossmembers burning it was an incredible sight. The entire structure was burning for a long time with copious quantities of smoke. There was no way they were going to stop it once it got going. Metra was planning major improvements including replacement of a portion of the structure so the required materials may already have been on order. I realize most of this is not PRR related but it is really quite a spectacular happening here in Chicago. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ed Mentz" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Marker Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 11:47:31 -0400

are you refering to a benchmark as a PRR marker only???  Benchmarks, from my army map reading days, exist all over the country and are marks surveyors measure FROM... Ed



 




"It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us the freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech. It is the soldier not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." ~ Father Dennis Edward.
de K2LCK
From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
To: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
CC: cupper@att.net (Dan Cupper), PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Marker
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 10:41:13 -0400 (EDT)
List,
I was curious about learning more about this Benchmark so I did a
search on Google to see if I could find an all-time listing of these
things. No luck but I did notice a common thread (sort of) concerning
something similar. With the info I was receiving from the PRR-Talk I
assumed this mark was a type of survey mark. It still could be but I was
noticing on the google search that benchmarks were also used to mark
high water? Could this PRR Benchmark be for that purpose also? The Flood
of 1936 most likely rose over into a portion of the Conway Yds and this
mark could have been set to mark the high water? The scrap dock was near
the edge of the river bank I believe. Since this has no lat and long
writings on it, maybe it was used just for a high water mark? Maybe not.
Still learning, back to Google....Gary
Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art
Work!
PRR K4s Loco Pics:
http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/
PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.:
http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html
and......
PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models:
http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 11:54:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago Metra disaster From: Jerry Britton On Tuesday, June 24, 2003, at 11:37 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > The IC main line which crosses under the old PRR main east of Englewood > suffered a major catastrophe in the middle of the night Sunday. Yesterday Norfolk Southern had issued a service disruption alert. (I'm on their mailing list.) From the description, it almost sounded like the NS line goes UNDER the trestle that burned. Is that the case? Unrelated, but similar, a UP coal train crew noticed smoke from one of the cars, indicative of a "hot box". Per rules, they stopped immediately. Unfortunately, they stopped the hot car directly on top of a wood trestle with creosote treatment. Burned the whole damned thing down! http://www.wig-wag-trains.com/UPFire/UPFire.htm ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Marker Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 08:55:04 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33A68.FA1FBE60 Content-Type: text/plain Gary seemed to be saying that this was a PRR benchmark, not a US Coast and Geodetic Survey marker or USGS or other. This benchmark would have been established for some specific purpose, and tied into other benchmarks for control and establishment of the elevation above NGVD. That the PRR did this one leads me to believe that it was done to establish horizontal control on some specific thing they were working on that had to be placed there to be visible from many other points within the area that they were doing construction on. There are no big bridges that PRR would have been building in that area, so the yard reconstruction makes sense. Still speculation at this point. Elden -----Original Message----- From: Ed Mentz [mailto:k2lck@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 8:48 AM To: mittner@webtv.net Cc: cupper@att.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Marker are you refering to a benchmark as a PRR marker only??? Benchmarks, from my army map reading days, exist all over the country and are marks surveyors measure FROM... Ed "It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us the freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech. It is the soldier not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." ~ Father Dennis Edward. de K2LCK From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) To: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) CC: cupper@att.net (Dan Cupper), PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Marker Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 10:41:13 -0400 (EDT) List, I was curious about learning more about this Benchmark so I did a search on Google to see if I could find an all-time listing of these things. No luck but I did notice a common thread (sort of) concerning something similar. With the info I was receiving from the PRR-Talk I assumed this mark was a type of survey mark. It still could be but I was noticing on the google search that benchmarks were also used to mark high water? Could this PRR Benchmark be for that purpose also? The Flood of 1936 most likely rose over into a portion of the Conway Yds and this mark could have been set to mark the high water? The scrap dock was near the edge of the river bank I believe. Since this has no lat and long writings on it, maybe it was used just for a high water mark? Maybe not. Still learning, back to Google....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _____ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33A68.FA1FBE60 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Gary seemed to be saying that this was a PRR benchmark, not a = US Coast and Geodetic Survey marker or USGS or other.  This benchmark would have been established for some specific purpose, and tied into other benchmarks = for control and establishment of the elevation above NGVD.  That the PRR did this one = leads me to believe that it was done to establish horizontal control on some = specific thing they were working on that had to be placed there to be visible from = many other points within the area that they were doing construction on.  There are no big bridges that = PRR would have been building in that area, so the yard reconstruction makes = sense.  Still = speculation at this point.

Elden

 

=

-----Original = Message-----
From: Ed Mentz [mailto:k2lck@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 = 8:48 AM
To: = mittner@webtv.net
Cc: cupper@att.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR = Marker

 

are you refering to a benchmark as a PRR = marker only???  Benchmarks, from my army map reading days, exist all over = the country and are marks surveyors measure FROM... = Ed



 




"It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us the freedom = of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of = speech. It is the soldier not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath = the flag, whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to = burn the flag." ~ Father Dennis Edward.

de K2LCK

From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) =

To: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) =

CC: cupper@att.net (Dan Cupper), = PRR-Talk@dsop.com

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Marker =

Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 10:41:13 -0400 (EDT) =

List,

I was curious about learning more about this = Benchmark so I did a

search on Google to see if I could find an = all-time listing of these

things. No luck but I did notice a common = thread (sort of) concerning

something similar. With the info I was = receiving from the PRR-Talk I

assumed this mark was a type of survey mark. = It still could be but I was

noticing on the google search that = benchmarks were also used to mark

high water? Could this PRR Benchmark be for = that purpose also? The Flood

of 1936 most likely rose over into a portion = of the Conway Yds and this

mark could have been set to mark the high = water? The scrap dock was near

the edge of the river bank I believe. Since = this has no lat and long

writings on it, maybe it was used just for a = high water mark? Maybe not.

Still learning, back to Google....Gary =

Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, = Historical Items and Art

Work!

PRR K4s Loco Pics: =

http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ =

PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. = etc.:

http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loc= o_index.html

and......

Talkclass=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and = Misc. Models:

http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpi= cs.html

---------------------------------------------= --------------------------

For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.


Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and = get 2 months FREE*

----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33A68.FA1FBE60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: class "Q-2" between Altoona and Pittsburgh. Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 08:58:00 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33A69.63217520 Content-Type: text/plain I seem to recall that there was a couple of restrictions east of Island Avenue yard on the north side of Pittsburgh that prevented the Q's from going east of that point. There are photos of the Q's at Conway. Can anyone verify that? Elden -----Original Message----- From: Dan Cupper [mailto:cupper@att.net] Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 7:41 PM To: Gary Mittner Cc: zootowerprr@webtv.net; William Bigler; PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: class "Q-2" between Altoona and Pittsburgh. (was:trains.com poll) Greetings to Gary, Jerry and the List: "Rule 2709. Other Engine Restrictions. Movement of Class J and Q engines prohibited-- Main Line--Between Banks and Bell" Source: PRR Middle Division ETT No. 6, September 16, 1945, p.76 Bell tower and interlocking was situated at Bellwood, Pa., between East Altoona and Tyrone. Banks stood at the west end of Marysville, Pa., and for many years was situated just east of the division point between the Philadelphia and Middle divisions. That's almost the entire Middle Division main line. My understanding of the reason for the restriction is that these engines were too large to fit through the Spruce Creek tunnels. PRR apparently did try to determine what it would take to improve the clearances Altoona-Philadelphia in order to accommodate these engines on through freight, but gave up after seeing the cost. Eventually, F units arrived, and they needed no clearance work at all. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ------------------------------------------------ Gary Mittner wrote: >Dave, Bill, > > I recall reading somewhere that 1 Q2 was assigned to the Middle Div. >Perhaps an MP229 from the late 40's era can shed light on the exact >number and if in fact this was true. Other than that they were lines >west locos that did from time to time come into Conway Yds. and possibly >Altoona on its way for Class Repairs. There is a pic of a Q2 in one of >the Pittsburgh Books by Ken Kobus/Jack Concoli. I think it is the second >volume. It shows a Q2 Westbound at Rochester Pa. The Q could be on a >return trip to the west from a run to Conway or maybe returned light >from Altoona for class repairs and picked up a train in Conway. Anything >is possible. There is also film/video evidence of Q's and train >eastbound on the Curve as well.......Gary > > > > > >Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art >Work! > >PRR K4s Loco Pics: >http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ > >PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: > >http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > >and...... > >PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: > >http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33A69.63217520 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Re: class "Q-2" between Altoona and = Pittsburgh. (was:trains.com poll)

I seem to recall that there was a couple of = restrictions east of Island Avenue yard on the north side of Pittsburgh = that prevented the Q's from going east of that point.  There are = photos of the Q's at Conway.  Can anyone verify that?

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Cupper [mailto:cupper@att.net]
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 7:41 PM
To: Gary Mittner
Cc: zootowerprr@webtv.net; William Bigler; = PRR-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: class "Q-2" between = Altoona and Pittsburgh. (was:trains.com poll)

Greetings to Gary, Jerry and the List:

"Rule 2709. Other Engine Restrictions. Movement = of Class J and Q engines
prohibited--
     Main Line--Between Banks = and Bell"

Source: PRR Middle Division ETT No. 6, September 16, = 1945, p.76

Bell tower and interlocking was situated at Bellwood, = Pa., between East
Altoona and Tyrone. Banks stood at the west end of = Marysville, Pa., and
for many years was situated just east of the = division point between the
Philadelphia and Middle divisions. That's almost the = entire Middle
Division main line.

My understanding of the reason for the restriction is = that these engines
were too large to fit through the Spruce Creek = tunnels. PRR apparently
did try to determine what it would take to improve = the clearances
Altoona-Philadelphia in order to accommodate these = engines on through
freight, but gave up after seeing the cost. = Eventually, F units arrived,
and they needed no clearance work at all.

Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, Pa.

------------------------------------------------
Gary Mittner wrote:

>Dave, Bill,
>
>    I recall reading somewhere = that 1 Q2 was assigned to the Middle Div.
>Perhaps an MP229 from the late 40's era can shed = light on the exact
>number and if in fact this was true. Other than = that they were lines
>west locos that did from time to time come into = Conway Yds. and possibly
>Altoona on its way for Class Repairs. There is a = pic of a Q2 in one of
>the Pittsburgh Books by Ken Kobus/Jack Concoli. = I think it is the second
>volume. It shows a Q2 Westbound at Rochester = Pa.  The Q could be on a
>return trip to the west from a run to Conway or = maybe returned light
>from Altoona for class repairs and picked up a = train in Conway. Anything
>is possible. There is also film/video evidence = of Q's and train
>eastbound on the Curve as well.......Gary
>
>
>
>
>
>Come visit my PRR Pages:  Photos, Models, = Historical Items and  Art
>Work!
>
>PRR K4s Loco Pics:
>http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/
>
>PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. = etc.:
>
>http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.h= tml
>
>and......
>
>PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and = Misc. Models:
>
>http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------= ------------
>For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
>
> 
>



---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C33A69.63217520-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 12:08:48 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] Track and Stuctures Plans - A&S, C&PD Bruce, Not familiar with Shenks Mills. Is this the same place as Shocks Mills on the A&S? Thanks, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO "Bruce F. Smith" wrote: > > Morning y'all, > > A few weeks ago, John Frantz was pondering some of his father's collection > of documents when he came across "Tracks and Structures Plan 618CC-1" which > covers Columbia to Shenks Mills on the C&PD and A&S. John IMMEDIATELY > recognized that I might be interested and sent me a photocopy. > > Finally, having drunk from the well, I want MORE! This plan indicates the > following T&S plans... > > 617-1 - The A&S east from Shenks Mills > 630-1 - The C&PD east from Shenks Mills > 625-1 - The Columbia Branch east from Columbia > 619-1 - The A&S/Columbia Branches west from Columbia > > Happy Rails > Bruce > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 12:12:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Marker List, For those who may have missed my jpg of this marker here it is again: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000991.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000992.jpg Elden, I am starting to think you are on to something. Maybe this was used during the mid 50's reconstruction of the yards? In email discussion with Dan Cupper last night, he tends to think this mark won't show up in the 1906 book he mentioned because the PRR ended in Pittsburgh (on paper) and the Pittsburgh, Ft Wayne and Chicago Railway began in Pittsburgh. So I guess he believes that if the marker is marked PRR rather than PFW&C, it was put in after PRR control of the entire system. I think I relayed Dan's reason OK. Clear it up Dan if I messed up......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 12:22:23 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] PRR T&HS and PRR modeling Another reason modeling and PRRT&HS relate is my experience with a portion of the Buffalo Line, specifically Williamsport, Renovo, Emporium, and Keating Summit. I started out researching those four locations in order to design a model railroad. As I got into them, I became fascinated with them, especially during the steam era during WWII, the era I am modeling. Williamsport was surprisingly difficult for a city of 100,000 to find info on the Pennsy there, but with perseverance and a bit of luck, I have (and am) finding quite a lot, and am assembling quite a bit on PRR in Williamsport. In fact, Al Buchan has me on the list of presenters do to one on Williamsport at the '05 convention in Camp Hill. So there is clearly a good and strong tie between modeling and PRR history! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 12:19:01 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: class "Q-2" between Altoona and Pittsburgh. From: Jerry Britton On Tuesday, June 24, 2003, at 11:58 AM, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > I seem to recall that there was a couple of restrictions east of=20 > Island Avenue yard on the north side of Pittsburgh that prevented the=20= > Q's from going east of that point.=A0 There are photos of the Q's at=20= > Conway.=A0 Can anyone verify that? Wasn't it the sharp curve at the one end of the bridge? If so, when=20 they brought them east for class repairs they could have taken a=20 longer, indirect route. We've previously discussed locomotive size vs. that curve. Might have=20 been one of the S-series locos though. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Matt Sichel" Subject: [PRR] Chicago Fire Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 12:18:36 -0400
>CSX’s freight line beneath the structure apparently was not affected once the fire was under >control, as television coverage late Monday morning showed CSX trains moving slowly >underneath one end of the affected bridge. The site is just east of CSX’s Barr Yard, a major >facility and western terminus of its former B&O main line from Ohio and points east.
 
According to the above from trains.com newswire, the line under the trestle was CSX former B&O into Chicago.
 

Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR T&HS and PRR modeling Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 12:22:23 -0400 Another reason modeling and PRRT&HS relate is my experience with a portion of the Buffalo Line, specifically Williamsport, Renovo, Emporium, and Keating Summit. I started out researching those four locations in order to design a model railroad. As I got into them, I became fascinated with them, especially during the steam era during WWII, the era I am modeling. Williamsport was surprisingly difficult for a city of 100,000 to find info on the Pennsy there, but with perseverance and a bit of luck, I have (and am) finding quite a lot, and am assembling quite a bit on PRR in Williamsport. In fact, Al Buchan has me on the list of presenters do to one on Williamsport at the '05 convention in Camp Hill. So there is clearly a good and strong tie between modeling and PRR history! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 12:32:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: class "Q-2" between Altoona and Pittsburgh. List, Not sure when it was done, the fellow who told me he watched it being done at the time has passed away, the Ft Wayne Bridge leading into the Station was realligned in the late 40's or early 50's. He said the PRR jacked the bridge up and turned it just a bit to make a more acceptable curve for these larger locos. They turned it just a bit so the Piers could still be used. He said if you look at how it sits on the Piers you can see this. Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 11:40:26 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Track and Stuctures Plans - A&S, C&PD >Bruce, > >Not familiar with Shenks Mills. Is this the same place as Shocks Mills >on the A&S? > >Thanks, > >Eddie Eddie, Nope! You need to head the other way . Shenks Mills (and Shenks Ferry) were downstream of Columbia and just upstream of McCalls Ferry where the Holtwood hydro dam was built. The paln John sent me contains Safe Harbor, although interestingly, the tracks for the coal loading facility there are not shown, although the sidings leading to them are... I would indeed love to find the T&S plans from Columbia to Shocks Mills!! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Marker Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 09:49:36 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33A70.98B45890 Content-Type: text/plain Gary, I really can't be sure, but when I was surveying things, we established benchmarks off of other benchmarks, and with the time and cost involved, they were done for good reason. PRR would have used available benchmarks unless this one was needed for good reason. I suspect that either there were no previously established benchmarks nearby that would have functioned well for the purpose the PRR intended, or the ones that existing were not located where they needed it to be. If this one was located along the riverbank, we have to remember that the PRR pushed the riverbank out into the channel considerably during the re-hab of Conway in order to enlarge the yard. If this was "reclaimed" (I hate that word in this context) land, there would have been no established elevation controls. Even worse, if they were trying to do things like establish form work for pouring concrete and having finished structures (like a coal dock?)with exacting elevation or laying track at specific elevations, they would have had to establish fixed elevation markers at locations around the site to get there. I would also imagine that given the presence of the "pool" for the lock and dam system, and the fixing of the pool's height at a given elevation, and the need to place fill and infrastructure at such elevations to keep them from being flooded, knowing where one was in relation to the pool would give one a good idea of where one might be in relation to the 100-year (and other) flood event water surface elevation. The PRR had good reason to have elevated so many lines around Pittsburgh during the track relocations they conducted, following the disastrous flood of '36 (ever seen those photos?). Screwing with the benchmark (and its elevation) could have serious repercussions. If they went back to add onto a structure or add a new one, using a benchmark that had been moved, and used the elevation marked on the benchmark (I can't read it on the photo, but...) as correct and it actually was something else, they could have conceivably built it at the wrong elevation. That's why the big warning! Elden -----Original Message----- From: mittner@webtv.net [mailto:mittner@webtv.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 9:13 AM To: ELDEN GATWOOD Cc: k2lck@hotmail.com; cupper@att.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Marker List, For those who may have missed my jpg of this marker here it is again: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000991.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000992.jpg Elden, I am starting to think you are on to something. Maybe this was used during the mid 50's reconstruction of the yards? In email discussion with Dan Cupper last night, he tends to think this mark won't show up in the 1906 book he mentioned because the PRR ended in Pittsburgh (on paper) and the Pittsburgh, Ft Wayne and Chicago Railway began in Pittsburgh. So I guess he believes that if the marker is marked PRR rather than PFW&C, it was put in after PRR control of the entire system. I think I relayed Dan's reason OK. Clear it up Dan if I messed up......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C33A70.98B45890 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] PRR Marker

Gary,  I really can't be sure, but when I was = surveying things, we established benchmarks off of other benchmarks, = and with the time and cost involved, they were done for good = reason.  PRR would have used available benchmarks unless this one = was needed for good reason.  I suspect that either there were no = previously established benchmarks nearby that would have functioned = well for the purpose the PRR intended, or the ones that existing were = not located where they needed it to be.  If this one was located = along the riverbank, we have to remember that the PRR pushed the = riverbank out into the channel considerably during the re-hab of Conway = in order to enlarge the yard.  If this was "reclaimed" = (I hate that word in this context) land, there would have been no = established elevation controls.  Even worse, if they were trying = to do things like establish form work for pouring concrete and having = finished structures (like a coal dock?)with exacting elevation or = laying track at specific elevations, they would have had to establish = fixed elevation markers at locations around the site to get = there.  I would also imagine that given the presence of the = "pool" for the lock and dam system, and the fixing of the = pool's height at a given elevation, and the need to place fill and = infrastructure at such elevations to keep them from being flooded, = knowing where one was in relation to the pool would give one a good = idea of where one might be in relation to the 100-year (and other) = flood event water surface elevation.  The PRR had good reason to = have elevated so many lines around Pittsburgh during the track = relocations they conducted, following the disastrous flood of '36 (ever = seen those photos?).

Screwing with the benchmark (and its elevation) could = have serious repercussions.  If they went back to add onto a = structure or add a new one, using a benchmark that had been moved, and = used the elevation marked on the benchmark (I can't read it on the = photo, but...) as correct and it actually was something else, they = could have conceivably built it at the wrong elevation.  That's = why the big warning!

Elden
-----Original Message-----
From: mittner@webtv.net [mailto:mittner@webtv.net]
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 9:13 AM
To: ELDEN GATWOOD
Cc: k2lck@hotmail.com; cupper@att.net; = PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Marker

List,

 For those who may have missed my jpg of this = marker here it is again:
http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000991.jpg=
http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000992.jpg=

     Elden, I am starting to = think you are on to something.  Maybe this
was used during the mid 50's reconstruction of the = yards? In email
discussion with Dan Cupper last night, he tends to = think this mark won't
show up in the 1906 book he mentioned because the = PRR ended in
Pittsburgh (on paper) and the Pittsburgh, Ft Wayne = and Chicago Railway
began in Pittsburgh. So I guess he believes that if = the marker is marked
PRR rather than PFW&C, it was put in after PRR = control of the entire
system. I think I relayed Dan's reason = OK.    Clear it up Dan if I
messed up......Gary





Come visit my PRR Pages:  Photos, Models, = Historical Items and  Art
Work!

PRR K4s Loco Pics:
http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/

PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.:

http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.h= tml

and......

PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. = Models:

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------_=_NextPart_001_01C33A70.98B45890-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 10:39:30 -0700 From: Steve B Subject: [PRR] Indpls Union Station (was Track & Stuctures Plans) "Jerry Britton" wrote: >Now you know how I got hooked into switching scales! Valuation/similar >maps are killers! > Speaking of valuation maps: I don't post often, but some of you may remember that I'm in the research phase of an N scale layout based on the Indianapolis Union Station (IUS) and five surrounding freight houses (PRR, NYC, B&O, NKP/Monon, IC). I'll be in Washington, DC in late July and am planning on visiting the National Archives at College Park, MD. I think it was Chris Baer who posted here that the Archives has a complete set of the ICC valuation maps for all railroads and I want to see what they have on the Indianapolis Union Railway and its Union Station trackage. Some questions: 1. Has anyone used visited the National Archive library? Any suggestions for accessing the ICC maps? 2. I've been to the Indiana and Ohio Historical Societies and the Indiana State Library. I've also visited the NMRA library in Chattanooga. All have been helpful. However, except for a small overall plan from a Railway Age report of the 1918 track elevation, I have still not found a complete track plan for the station and surrounding area. Does anyone own or have access to any other maps or information about the Indianapolis Union Railway/Station? 3. Would there be anything useful at the Library of Congress? Specific IUS questions: 1. I know were the Pullman coach yard was, but cannot locate a building for the Pullman Company. Several overnight trains originated or terminated in Indianapolis in the late '40s/early '50s and would have required Pullman service. Does anyone have information about Pullman's Indianapolis operations? 2. A similar situation exists regarding PRR diner service. Where were PRR diners serviced? As an aside, on this trip I'll also be in Pittsburgh and Philadelphia and most places in between. I'm planning an Amtrak trip to Altoona and back from Pittsburgh to see the Railroader's Museum and ride over the Curve and tunnels. I'm also planning to go to Strasburg and Steamtown. I'll probably stop in Harrisburg just to see interesting PRR structures like the Rockville bridge. Since I'm not modeling that part of the PRR, I'm only going because of my interest in the PRR and its history. Any other "must see" PRR things in Pennsylvania? Any archives or libraries I might visit? Thanks, Steve Beals Los Angeles ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 11:17:34 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Marker --- Gary Mittner wrote: > For those who may have missed my jpg of this marker here it is > again: > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000991.jpg The US Geological Survey, on their old topo maps, used to identify two kinds of marks, Bench Marks and Triangulation Stations. The former were set to mark known elevations, that is, for vertical control. The latter were known points used in horizontal control. The triangle cast in the middle of the tablet suggests to me that it marked a triangulation station set up by the railroad. Of course, there is nothing to prevent a particular point from serving as both a bench mark and a triangulation station. In USGS work, of course, triangulation stations tended to be set up on hilltops, so you could see more places from each. I recently visited a USGS web site which documents bench marks in Western PA. I had been there a couple of years ago, but they have apparently revisited their list of "approved" bench marks. Last I was there I found that many UGUS bench marks in Western PA had originally been set up by the PRR, the USGS simply did some checking and adopted the railroad's results. None of the preceeding paargraph bears directly on the tablet in question, of course. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. of XT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Marker Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 18:31:15 +0000 The USGS markers I have seen are set in concrete to prevent movement of any kind. Since this one does not appear to have been set that way and there is no elevation stamped on it is it possible it is an unused one that somebody either originally pilfered or was scrapped from the company stores at some point? > --- Gary Mittner wrote: > > For those who may have missed my jpg of this marker here it is > > again: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000991.jpg > > The US Geological Survey, on their old topo maps, used to identify > two kinds of marks, Bench Marks and Triangulation Stations. The > former were set to mark known elevations, that is, for vertical > control. The latter were known points used in horizontal control. > > The triangle cast in the middle of the tablet suggests to me that it > marked a triangulation station set up by the railroad. Of course, > there is nothing to prevent a particular point from serving as both a > bench mark and a triangulation station. In USGS work, of course, > triangulation stations tended to be set up on hilltops, so you could > see more places from each. > > I recently visited a USGS web site which documents bench marks in > Western PA. I had been there a couple of years ago, but they have > apparently revisited their list of "approved" bench marks. Last I was > there I found that many UGUS bench marks in Western PA had originally > been set up by the PRR, the USGS simply did some checking and adopted > the railroad's results. > > None of the preceeding paargraph bears directly on the tablet in > question, of course. > > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > http://sbc.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:54:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Marker Norm, The second jpg shows the shaft of the marker. It is round with 9 no so perfect gouges (not sure they can be seen in the image) so when planted in concrete it can not be pulled out easily. This marker was inbedded in concrete as the original finder of it had to bust it out using a sledge.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 16:10:17 -0400 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: class "Q-2" between Altoona and Pittsburgh. (was:tr In a message dated 6/24/2003 11:19:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > Wasn't it the sharp curve at the one end of the bridge? If so, when > they brought them east for cla, >epairs they could have > taken a > longer, indirect route. The restriction was because of the curve past US tower into Union Station. Any movement to Altoona for repairs or otherwise, needed to use the Connemaugh Division or the Brilliant Branch from the Connemaugh back to the Pittsburgh Division at CM. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 16:24:34 -0400 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Marker FYI The normal pool of the Ohio River along Conway is 682.0 feet above sea level. Conway is 701 feet above sea level (USGS Topo maps. The 1936 flood reached 706.5 feet above sea level at Conway. No trains ran between Pittsburgh and Rochester for some time. The PRR ran a bus shuttle between Union Station and Rochester. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] History & Modeling, Williamsport, & "The Rest of the Story" Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 16:35:01 -0400 The following is a somewhat lengthy post on Williamsport today in response to an off-list reply to my post. (Delete Key available for non-interested parties) I think it is a good example of how modeling relates to history, and what what can be found with diligence and careful searching in an area where there really is very little to no remaining signs of the Pennsy. I hope this doesn't steal my thunder for my talk in '05, but then, I have pictures, maps, track charts, etc. - both WWII and now!! ------------------------ James Kelling said in an off list post to me: "But there's not much left to see in Williamsport today, right?" ------------------------ A lot more than you'd think. Starting on the east end: -Allens Jcn. is still pretty flat, open, cindered - probably a parking area. -Piers for that truss bridge on east end of town still there in river. -One of the main e-w streets (3rd or 4th) that parallels the 4 lane dips substantially where the Pennsy came off that bridge and went past a red warehouse type building and started through town. Can see this clearly. Can still see some of the old right-of-way. -Little League Blvd. is the old passenger main through town. -One station building (REA Office?) is still there next to old Park Hotel (now 2 stories instead of 4) which has been rebuilt/restored for office space. -Walnut St. yard area is now Apts/kids play area. -Right of way/passenger main through town is surprisingly intact from station west. -Truss bridge between Wmspt. & Newberry still there, now part of walking trail. -Can still see where Newberry Jcn was - right of way and cinders. Takes a bit of looking. Careful, venomous serpents abound in summer. -Just west of Newberry Jcn. right-of-way is surprisingly intact starting at Arch St. (I think that's the name of it) -Do visit the Kast Hotel, two doors north on Arch. St. Old railroad hotel where PRR crews used to lay over. Still a hotel with a few long term residents, they do rent rooms for next to nothing (cash over the bar late in the evening only), bar is not bad at all - some real characters appear/live there (perfectly safe). Ask to see the rooms or see upstairs - it's a hoot. Transoms above the doors, sink in room (thick brown sludge came out of mine), bathroom down the hall. Recommend tour only - not staying. In basement is Peterson Train Display - a ton of old and very valuable Lionel semi-displayed on shelves. Dank, dark, and musty, but definately worth seeing. Have to arrange train tour ahead of time. -From Arch St right-of-way goes into Newberry Yard - surprisingly intact. Still used by Lycoming Valley RR which switches what is left of yard, old RDG, and old PRR Industrial Area. -West of Newberry Yard is a wye, and old PRR crosses bridge at Linden to Nisbet. Old truss bridge still there and used three times/week by Lycoming Valley. -Nisbet Jcn is a real find (across the bridge). Be really careful - venomous serpents are everywhere over there, but worth a careful look - just keep out of weeds and tall grass, and carry a long walking stick and lead with it - tap the ground ahead of you. -The wye at Nisbet is still intact and still in use. NS Buffalo Line (now closed except for local rail traffic) and Lycoming Valley interchange there. -Concrete bases for two steel water towers are still there. -Concrete footers (8 each) for two coal towers are still there and quite obvious. -Signal bridge with position light signals still there (although single track). -Not much sign of sand storage tower and drying plant but location fairly obvious if you know where it was. -Concrete footer for at least one water column (plug) still there -Can see where Nisbet Tower was, but barely (just west of west leg of wye) GOING BACK TO TOWN AND THE LUMBER & INDUSTRIAL BRANCHES: -Several industries/businesses served by Lycoming Valley RR just west of college (that's the college on the west end of town). Don't miss the mini-draw bridge for the RR by the wire rope factory. Can see it clearly from behind the fast food restaurant. -Not much left from these factories/businesses back to town. No sign of RR running down Hepburn St. Wegmans Grocery and Hampton Inn have wiped everything out. -East of Market St (route 15 bridge) you can see Canal St (an alley in most spots). Pennsy Canal branch ran right down the middle of it. -In Faxon (just east of downtown Williamsport) you can see Faxon Lumber Co. - one of their lumber yards was east end of Lower Canal Branch. -Don't miss Montoursville and English's Model Railroad Shop - retail home of Bowser. So, yeah, there's not much left, but there's a whole lot left. Fascinating, combining PRR, history, and modeling. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 16:46:02 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Marker In a message dated 6/24/03 3:31:44 PM, SUVCWORR@aol.com writes: << The normal pool of the Ohio River along Conway is 682.0 feet above sea level. Conway is 701 feet above sea level (USGS Topo maps. The 1936 flood reached 706.5 feet above sea level at Conway. >> There is a mark up on the Telephone Company building in downtown Cincinnati (if the building hasn't been torn down) that will show you exactly up deep 706.5 feet would have been. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 19:03:09 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Research re Indpls Union Station --part1_9.140cae96.2c2a32ad_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/24/2003 1:49:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, paradise@pacbell.net writes: > 1. Has anyone used visited the National Archive library? Any suggestions > for accessing the ICC maps? <<<< Yes. Here's how it works. The ICC records > are in Archives II in Silver Spring. (The archives are in 4 different > locations in the DC area.) You go to the map room on the second floor and look up the > proper valuation section in a notebook that shows all railroads and their > valuation sections. They will bring you any number of maps you want to examine, > but supposedly they will copy only 10 sheets per patron per day. However, on > days that are slow, they have been known to do more. While there, you may > wish to talk with Archivist Dave Pfeiffer, who specializes in the ICC records, > and ask about the manuscript valuation files, which often contain photos from > the 1917-1923 period, as well as occasional building drawings and numerous > specifications. These can be a treasure trove or a dud -- no way to tell but > to look! > > 3. Would there be anything useful at the Library of Congress? <<< Yes. The > most useful thing of all -- the Sanborn insurance maps in the Geography and > Map Division, which is in the Madison Building. (The LofC is three adjacent > buildings.) They are open weekdays only, during business hours, but they are > super helpful. The best way to approach them is to be very frank about what you > are looking for -- railroads and industries in a town in a certain era -- and > indicate that "one thing" you want to look at is the Sanborns. My experience > is that they then usually emerge from the bowels of the library with files > of additional highly detailed maps that you would never have known to ask for. Lee Rainey --part1_9.140cae96.2c2a32ad_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/24/2003 1:49:41 PM Eastern Standa= rd Time, paradise@pacbell.net writes:


1. Has anyone used visited the=20= National Archive library? Any suggestions
for accessing the ICC maps? <<<< Yes. Here's how it works. The I= CC records are in Archives II in Silver Spring. (The archives are in 4 diffe= rent locations in the DC area.) You go to the map room on the second floor a= nd look up the proper valuation section in a notebook that shows all railroa= ds and their valuation sections. They will bring you any number of maps you=20= want to examine, but supposedly they will copy only 10 sheets per patron per= day. However, on days that are slow, they have been known to do more. While= there, you may wish to talk with Archivist Dave Pfeiffer, who specializes i= n the ICC records, and ask about the manuscript valuation files, which often= contain photos from the 1917-1923 period, as well as occasional building dr= awings and numerous specifications. These can be a treasure trove or a dud -= - no way to tell but to look!



3. Would there be anything useful at the Library of Congress? <<< Y= es. The most useful thing of all -- the Sanborn insurance maps in the Geogra= phy and Map Division, which is in the Madison Building. (The LofC is three a= djacent buildings.) They are open weekdays only, during business hours, but=20= they are super helpful. The best way to approach them is to be very frank ab= out what you are looking for -- railroads and industries in a town in a cert= ain era -- and indicate that "one thing" you want to look at is the Sanborns= . My experience is that they then usually emerge from the bowels of the libr= ary with files of additional highly detailed maps that you would never have=20= known to ask for.


Lee Rainey --part1_9.140cae96.2c2a32ad_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 16:05:35 -0700 Subject: [PRR] B 60 Markings From: Greg Ritacco Listers, here's a question about the B 60. I believe they were built beginning around 1908, and since the Adams Express Co. went out around 1917, were any B 60's painted for Adams, and of course, where is a photo or diagram available? Thanks. Greg. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 09:18:50 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Tower/CTC Panel Indicators From: Jerry Britton Question about panel indicators in towers or on CTC... Let's use a typical stretch of four track Pennsy main, with a full interlocking (12 turnouts) as an example. W------------------- B----------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------B--------------------E B \ / B E-------------------- B----------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------B--------------------A B / \ B S-------------------- B----------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------B--------------------S B / \ B T--------------------- B----------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------B-------------------T (Hopefully the above will render okay!) Track #1 is on the bottom; Track #4 at top. The "B" marks the signal bridge location. Given: A train stopped outside the interlocking will light an occupancy lamp for the block they occupy. Question: Does the CTC/board panel have 12 indicators within the interlocking (one outside each track's turnouts and one between the turnouts) or only four (one for each track)? In the event of a train passing straight through, it may be a moot point from a detection standpoint, as the train will not affect traffic on any other track. But take the case of an eastbound freight arriving on Track 2 and needing to switch to Track 3. As it enters the interlocking, will it only light the left 1/3 of the track two panel, or the entire length of track 2? As it progresses through the turnout, it would need to light at least the center 1/3 of track three, followed by the last 1/3 of track three. At minimum, it would light the first 1/3 of track 2, then the center and right /3's of track 3. That would show its actual progress through the interlocking. Or would it light all of track two and all of track three? There is a reason for my question. On a model railroad I need to wire many interlockings for detection. The above dictates whether or not I need 4 or 12 detection sections per interlocking. If it is indeed done in thirds, then it would be feasible to leave a light locomotive consist (helpers?) within the interlocking limits in the center sections of track 1 or track 4. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 09:44:14 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: Tower/CTC Panel Indicators From: Jerry Britton On Wednesday, June 25, 2003, at 09:18 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > Or would it light all of track two and all of track three? The manual for "Computer Dispatcher Pro" -- which is the GUI licensed from Train Trak Pro, in use by 21 Class I railroads -- shows a full four track interlocking and it appears that there is only one detection section per track. This would cause all of track two and all of track three to light if a train were entering on track two and switching to track three. But how did the Pennsy do it? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 09:33:02 -0500 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] B60 markings Hello, all, Yes, the B60 was lettered for Adams Express. I can't be certain, but I believe there is a picture in one of the Pennsy Power books (III ?). After WWI, they were then lettered for American Railway Express until the creation of Railway Express. George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: [PRR] PRR Class F22 Plans Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 15:09:53 +0000 All, Passing on a request from Jon Cagle regarding plans for Class F22 to use in building an O-scale model. A search online turned up a photo and equipment diagrams at Rob's website but no indication that any drawings were ever published in the entusiast press. The best lead I could turn up is the possiblilty of Class F23 plans in the 1919 CBC based on a builder's photo published in the Cyc. (I don't have a full Cyc so I cant confirm this.) John is not a subscriber - please cc: him on responses ar jscagle@msn.com . Thanks in advance! Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 08:41:35 -0700 Subject: (Fwd) Re: [PRR] B 60 Markings Hi Greg, Greg asked: > Listers, here's a question about the B 60. I believe they were built > beginning around 1908, and since the Adams Express Co. went out around > 1917, were any B 60's painted for Adams, and of course, where is a > photo or diagram available? Thanks. Greg. Absolutely. Negative #7611 in the PRR collection (via Hagley Museum) is a photo of B60 5637 lettered for Adams Express Company. - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "E. Mike" Subject: Re: [PRR] Tower/CTC Panel Indicators Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 15:47:48 +0000 I have somepictures of the VALLEY machine at OVERBROOK tower and it has an accupancy light between each signal the next turnout and a light between every turnout and the next turnout. The light also illuminate in order as the train progesses through the interlocking. No, trains cannot be held within in an interlocking unless there is an isolated "pocket" like is actually seen at OVERBROOK and BRYN MAWR on the 1 and 4 tracks. The pocket nees to have a signal at each end. ________________________________________________tion_____________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 12:00:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Tower/CTC Panel Indicators From: Jerry Britton On Wednesday, June 25, 2003, at 11:47 AM, E. Mike wrote: > I have somepictures of the VALLEY machine at OVERBROOK tower and it > has an accupancy light between each signal the next turnout and a > light between every turnout and the next turnout. The light also > illuminate in order as the train progesses through the interlocking. > > No, trains cannot be held within in an interlocking unless there is an > isolated "pocket" like is actually seen at OVERBROOK and BRYN MAWR on > the 1 and 4 tracks. The pocket nees to have a signal at each end. Thanks on both accounts. Any differences of opinion? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 13:00:14 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Tower/CTC Panel Indicators Jerry: I agree that trains can not be held within an interlocking without having an additional signal. The question would be if not for the signal, how could you tell them to hold (and assure that they do). This would defeat the whole purpose behind signalled interlockings. These additional signals were often used places where light engine moves were OFTEN done (like to put helpers behind trains, etc) and a very long interlocking is involved... On the detection, what we are talking about is once again "cut blocks"... An interlocking with 4 mainlines and crossovers between every track requires them to allow multiple moves... This particular example requires 7 cut blocks within the interlocking to allow all possible movements. (I can try to make a diagram if you'd like). The second part of this is going to be how the CTC machine showed them... I have found that this depends on the railroad and age of the machine... Newer (computerized) machines will show each cut block individually and occupancy will only turn that cut block red... The older machines did NOT show cut block occupancy, but they did affect whether a switch could be thrown (thus, an operator has to be "qualified" on the tower). There was a time at the end of mechanical machines before computerized where SOME interlockings showed the cut block occupancy (or at least some of it -- I've seen pictures (non-PRR) where the most complicated interlocking had it, but other simpler ones did not)... I have no idea on prototype PRR practices for specific towers... Jerry Britton wrote: > On Wednesday, June 25, 2003, at 11:47 AM, E. Mike wrote: > >> I have somepictures of the VALLEY machine at OVERBROOK tower and it >> has an accupancy light between each signal the next turnout and a >> light between every turnout and the next turnout. The light also >> illuminate in order as the train progesses through the interlocking. >> >> No, trains cannot be held within in an interlocking unless there is >> an isolated "pocket" like is actually seen at OVERBROOK and BRYN MAWR >> on the 1 and 4 tracks. The pocket nees to have a signal at each end. > > > Thanks on both accounts. Any differences of opinion? > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 13:07:45 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Tower/CTC Panel Indicators From: Jerry Britton On Wednesday, June 25, 2003, at 01:00 PM, Jeff Warner wrote: > I agree that trains can not be held within an interlocking without > having an additional signal. The question would be if not for the > signal, how could you tell them to hold (and assure that they do). > This would defeat the whole purpose behind signalled interlockings. > These additional signals were often used places where light engine > moves were OFTEN done (like to put helpers behind trains, etc) and a > very long interlocking is involved... The one place I have actually witnessed this being done was at MO at Cresson, Pa., which, of course, is a heavy helper location. I just wasn't sure if it was common practice or not. > > On the detection, what we are talking about is once again "cut > blocks"... An interlocking with 4 mainlines and crossovers between > every track requires them to allow multiple moves... This particular > example requires 7 cut blocks within the interlocking to allow all > possible movements. (I can try to make a diagram if you'd like). The > second part of this is going to be how the CTC machine showed them... > I have found that this depends on the railroad and age of the > machine... Newer (computerized) machines will show each cut block > individually and occupancy will only turn that cut block red... The > older machines did NOT show cut block occupancy, but they did affect > whether a switch could be thrown (thus, an operator has to be > "qualified" on the tower). There was a time at the end of mechanical > machines before computerized where SOME interlockings showed the cut > block occupancy (or at least some of it -- I've seen pictures > (non-PRR) where the most complicated interlocking had it, but other > simpler ones did not)... I have no idea on prototype PRR practices > for specific towers... I think I'll just go ahead and invest the extra few bucks and do full detection, which will require 12 circuits per full PRR four-track interlocking. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 13:16:09 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Tower/CTC Panel Indicators > >> I agree that trains can not be held within an interlocking without >> having an additional signal. > > The one place I have actually witnessed this being done was at MO at > Cresson, Pa., which, of course, is a heavy helper location. I just > wasn't sure if it was common practice or not. Putting in signals cost money... They would only have been used at locations that justified their cost... > > I think I'll just go ahead and invest the extra few bucks and do full > detection, which will require 12 circuits per full PRR four-track > interlocking. I think you can get full detection from 7 cut blocks if I am understanding the problem correctly... I tried an ASCII diagram, but it got too confusing too quickly. I'll send you directly a .JPG with my thought... Jeff ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 13:34:13 EDT Subject: [PRR] B60 in Adams Express lettering? --part1_30.4207f7b6.2c2b3715_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/25/03 1:12:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: B 60 Markings > From: "Greg Ritacco" > Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 16:05:35 -0700 > > Listers, here's a question about the B 60. I believe they were built > beginning around 1908, and since the Adams Express Co. went out around > 1917, were any B 60's painted for Adams, and of course, where is a > photo or diagram available? Thanks. Greg. > You'd think these existed. Alas, out of 87 PRR baggage car photos I've indexed, none are prior to 1926. Sorry. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_30.4207f7b6.2c2b3715_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/25/03 1:12:25 AM Eastern Daylight= Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: B 60 Markings
From: "Greg Ritacco" <gregr@surewest.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 16:05:35 -0700

Listers, here's a question about the B 60.  I believe they were built <= BR> beginning around 1908, and since the Adams Express Co. went out around
1917, were any B 60's painted for Adams, and of course, where is a
photo or diagram available?  Thanks.  Greg.


You'd think these existed.  Alas, out of 87 PRR baggage car photos I've= indexed, none are prior to 1926.  Sorry.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_30.4207f7b6.2c2b3715_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 10:31:31 -0700 (PDT) From: johncoop@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Tower/CTC Panel Indicators The interlocking diagrams are very detailed on the exact question you ask. As an example, let's look at Bryn Mawr (http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/brynmawr.gif). Notice the hash marks on the rails just to the right of crossover 5. These marks indicate an insulated joint in the rails, and thus the extent of the track circuits. Notice that each track circuit is even labelled on the diagram. Each track circuit would be represented on the model board. (Insulated joints in the middle of crossovers are assumed.) For a train going east crossing over 1 to 2, Track circuit A1 would be the first to show occupied, then A2, then B2. The operator would be unable to throw the crossover when A1 or A2 are occupied, but B2 doesn't lock the crossover (as long as the train is travelling east - but that's another issue) This is called sectional release, allowing the locking on the switches to release as trains vacate various sections of the interlocking. Notice the same is not the case for an eastbound going 3 to 2. Track circuit B2 extends all the way to the eastern limit of the interlocking so the train has to completely exit the interlocking before restoring 13. There are also insulated joints west of crossover 9. So it appears that Bryn Mawr was designed to handle lots of following moves crossing 4 to 3 and 1 to 2. And of course the pocket created by 14L optimizes following moves leaving west on 4. Someone mentioned that signals are needed at both ends of the pocket. This is not exactly true. The rulebook says that a train may not reverse direction within an interlocking except under signal authority. This is because switches behind the train can sectionally release. 16R is there not because crossover 9 can sectionally release, but in the event that a train in the pocket wants to backup eastward out of the pocket. It is interesting to compare Byrn Mawr to a place like Holmes. It appears that at Holmes, each track is a single track circuit, so there would be no sectional release. Trains would have to completely exit the interlocking before any crossovers are moved. (Crossing over two tracks might be a technicallity requiring investigation) Then check out the east end of Broad and you can see they've got sectional release all over the place. As for the model board, sometimes occupancy was shown by lit lights (usually two for redundancy). Sometimes by lights going dark (meaning the track relay dropped). It varied. John -------Original Message------- From: Jerry Britton Sent: 06/25/03 06:18 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Tower/CTC Panel Indicators > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 13:41:50 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Tower/CTC Panel Indicators From: Jerry Britton On Wednesday, June 25, 2003, at 01:31 PM, johncoop@ix.netcom.com wrote: > > The interlocking diagrams are very detailed on the exact question you > ask. As an example, let's look at Bryn Mawr > (http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/brynmawr.gif). > Notice the hash marks on the rails just to the right of crossover 5. > These marks indicate an insulated joint in the rails, and thus the > extent of the track circuits. Notice that each track circuit is even > labelled on the diagram. Each track circuit would be represented on > the model board. (Insulated joints in the middle of crossovers are > assumed.) Sure does help when someone describes how to read these things. Had no idea the cut blocks were shown! Thanks! --------------------------------------------------an.=----- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 13:43:59 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Tower/CTC Panel Indicators From: Jerry Britton On Wednesday, June 25, 2003, at 01:41 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: > Sure does help when someone describes how to read these things. Had no > idea the cut blocks were shown! I'll have to recontain my excitement...most of the diagrams available do NOT show the cut blocks. Specifically, look at MG or STATE. STATE shows the cut labels, but not the cut locations. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Frank Stingone" Subject: [PRR] PRR H10 9981 Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 18:43:56 -0400 I am researching an article for a future P&LERRHS magazine ("The Little Giant") article and I am in need of any information and photos available on PRR H10s #9981. I know it was sold to the PC&Y in 1940 and became their #12, but I have almost nothing on its PRR years. Anything would be helpful and greatly appreciated. Frank Stingone VP - PLERRHS fstingone@earthlink.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 18:39:44 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR Talk: Williamsport From: beth capl caples Funny thing you should mention it. I just got back from vacation. One of my visits was the Williamsport/ Newberry Yard. There are 2 other things that I would like to add. 1- There is a PRR mailcar sitting in the middle of the yard with out trucks. 2 - I found a PRR m.o.w. 40' flatcar # 491451 in very good paint. (to answer a post from last month. This flatcar was "assigned to crawler crane CC0995" ) John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] PRR passenger car trains and consists book Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 07:41:48 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C33BB6.6679F0A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Amazon lists this book as available (havent' ordered yet to test = them:-)). Is it really out and, if so, anyone care to comment on its = usefulness,especially nonredundant photos,etc? Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C33BB6.6679F0A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Amazon lists this book as available = (havent'=20 ordered yet to test them:-)).  Is it really out and, if so, anyone = care to=20 comment on its usefulness,especially nonredundant = photos,etc?
 
Bob Zoeller
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C33BB6.6679F0A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ErieRailroad@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 16:01:59 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Talk: Williamsport --part1_18f.1c45cafc.2c2cab37_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John, Do you have any pics you can post? JB --part1_18f.1c45cafc.2c2cab37_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John,

Do you have any pics you can post?

JB --part1_18f.1c45cafc.2c2cab37_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Amtrak train breaks down in tunnel Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 21:13:48 +0000 This is from the Trains web site. I assume that those of you in the east are now experienceing the heat wave we had in the midwest the last two days. Amtrak train breaks down in tunnel BALTIMORE, Md. – Amtrak Acela Express train 2170, the 3 p.m. departure from Washington, D.C. to New York City and Boston, was terminated while in the B&P (Baltimore and Potomac) tunnel near Penn Station Wednesday after it was unable to receive sufficient overhead electrical power to move. Hotel power, providing lighting to the cars, was operable. The original plan was to have a MARC commuter train push it into the station, however, according to an Amtrak spokesperson, the crew did not know how to lift the nose cone on the front of the power car to access the coupler. Eventually the train was able to move slowly on its own and arrived at the station after one hour in the tunnel. Passengers were transferred to other trains. While being deadheaded from Baltimore back to Washington, D.C., the trainset broke down again, this time blocking both tracks of the Landover, Maryland interlocking plant nine miles north of the capital for more than one hour. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.the !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Laird" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger car trains and consists book Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 16:42:46 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C33C01.F915DFA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I pre-orderd mine from the publisher MONTHS ago and still have not = received it. I have received a couple of notices from the publisher = saying that publication has been delayed. Bill Laird Canyon Lake, TX ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bob Zoeller=20 To: PRR-Talk=20 Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 7:41 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR passenger car trains and consists book Amazon lists this book as available (havent' ordered yet to test = them:-)). Is it really out and, if so, anyone care to comment on its = usefulness,especially nonredundant photos,etc? Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C33C01.F915DFA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I pre-orderd mine from the publisher MONTHS ago and = still have=20 not received it.  I have received a couple of notices from the = publisher=20 saying that publication has been delayed.
 
Bill Laird
Canyon Lake, TX
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bob = Zoeller=20
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 = 7:41=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] PRR passenger = car trains=20 and consists book

Amazon lists this book as available = (havent'=20 ordered yet to test them:-)).  Is it really out and, if so, = anyone care=20 to comment on its usefulness,especially nonredundant = photos,etc?
 
Bob = Zoeller
------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C33C01.F915DFA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] PRR passenger car trains and consists book Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 16:58:05 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01C33C04.1C614BA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Train Consists & Cars East West by Harry = Stegmaier. =20 Bob Zoeller From: MAGGIE1361@aol.com=20 WHAT IS THE NAME OF THE BOOK????? ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01C33C04.1C614BA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Train Consists & Cars East West = by=20 Harry Stegmaier. 
 
Bob Zoeller
 
From:=20 MAGGIE1361@aol.com

WHAT IS THE NAME OF THE BOOK?????=20
------=_NextPart_000_0065_01C33C04.1C614BA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pennsy Nut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak train breaks down in tunnel Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:13:50 -0500 Heat, smeat. Y'all don't know what heat is until you come to Texas. "I assume that those of you in the east are now experiencing the heat wave we had in the midwest the last two days." And yes, the Penn Texas Chapter of the PRRTHS is in the process. Paperwork has been submitted. Let's hear it for the people living in Texas who have a love for the PRR. SPF's and proud of it. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 & Proud SPF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:32:59 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger car trains and consists book --part1_1ec.be7090a.2c2cce9b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I pre-ordered my book as well, against my better judgement. I've been burned several times in the past on pre-pub offers. I was told by the publisher that I could expect the consist book to be delivered sometime in July. Chris Baker #1918 --part1_1ec.be7090a.2c2cce9b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I pre-ordered my book as well, against my better judge= ment.  I've been burned several times in the past on pre-pub offers.&nb= sp; I was told by the publisher that I could expect the consist book to be d= elivered sometime in July.

Chris Baker  #1918 --part1_1ec.be7090a.2c2cce9b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:54:35 GMT Subject: [PRR] B60's From: Dominic Mazoch I don't now about Adam's Express. But my Lionel 9500 baggage car has "American Rwy Exp" on it. This means it will not be pulled by a GG-1. Question: How long did it take before all the American Exp. cars were retitled REA? Thanks. Dominic Mazoch ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: [PRR] Bowser HO N8 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 19:08:54 -0500 I just noticed an announcement on Bowser's webpage regarding the upcoming N8. They say it will feature seperate grabs! I think this is a first for Bowser, and they should be commended for it. Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 20:26:28 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser HO N8 From: Jerry @ Pennsy On Thursday, June 26, 2003, at 08:08 PM, Andy Cich wrote: > I just noticed an announcement on Bowser's webpage regarding the > upcoming > N8. They say it will feature seperate grabs! I think this is a first > for > Bowser, and they should be commended for it. > A lot of the design enhancements are coming out of the N scale N5 project from two years ago. Some concepts were learned that will be applied to all future cabin cars. As I did for the N scale N5c cars, Lee has asked me to select road numbers for the HO N8 cars. Any favorites out there? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------- Jerry Britton, president jbritton@dsop.com Merchandise Service 717-938-4270 A Division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 21:00:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser HO N8 Jerry, If Mr. English would be so kind in representing this N8, that would be fantastic. http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/new25.jpg Our Local Historical Society member owns this one. Could possibly be used as a fund raiser for the Society. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRPaul@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 21:35:57 EDT Subject: [PRR] Railroad Prototype Modelers-Valley Forge Railroad Protoype Modelers Valley Forge Sponsored by Philadelphia Division, MER, NMRA March 26-28, 2004 at the Desmond Great Valley Hotel & Conference Center Malvern, PA Clinics Model Displays Vendors Room Home Layout Tour (Sunday) For Additional information and updates phillynmra.org or Paul Backenstose prrpaul@aol.com or 610-269-2763 103 West Uwchlan Avenue Downingtown, PA 19335 (Please include an SSAE for a reply) Interested in presenting a clinic? Jim Dalberg 610-648-0089 or jedalberg@aol.com Vendor Information Bud Kaiser 856-428-6898 or bkaiser@voicenet.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Al Buchan Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:04:31 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRRT&HS Book Sale Ending The PRRT&HS one-half price e-store book sales ends after this Monday, June 30th. Visit the store at www.prrths.com "National Society," "e-store." Al ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:04:31 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Book Sale Ending The PRRT&HS one-half price e-store book sales ends after this Monday, June 30th. Visit the store at www.prrths.com "National Society," "e-store." Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew S. Miller" Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 09:56:13 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] PRRT&HS Book Sale Ending THANK YOU AL I had forgotten about this. I just bought several books from the list that had been on my "maybe" list and are now too good to pass up at these prices. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Al Buchan wrote: > The PRRT&HS one-half price e-store book sales ends after this Monday, > June 30th. Visit the store at www.prrths.com "National Society," > "e-store." > > Al > > > "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. > > To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = > PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 09:56:13 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] PRRT&HS Book Sale Ending THANK YOU AL I had forgotten about this. I just bought several books from the list that had been on my "maybe" list and are now too good to pass up at these prices. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Al Buchan wrote: > The PRRT&HS one-half price e-store book sales ends after this Monday, > June 30th. Visit the store at www.prrths.com "National Society," > "e-store." > > Al > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> > Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. > http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. > > To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = > PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser HO N8 Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 06:59:24 -0700 Jerry, While I don't have any particular favorites for N8 numbers, could you prevail upon Lee to do a good job on color selection? I think that would be more significant to modelers than a particular number. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] MR poll Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 10:32:40 -0400 OK guys right now the PRR is in 3rd behind other and the Santa Fe!! Chris Chany >> ModelRailroader.com home page << -- What is your favorite pre-Amtrak-era passenger railroad to model? Vote now on the ModelRailroader.com home page: http://list.trains.com/UM/T.asp?A7.54.184.8.124234 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser HO N8 Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:10:37 +0000 I don't want to come across as anal retentive, but Bowser cars in the past, have also had average to sometimes poor quality in silk screening of the letter. Many of the letterings have been either smudged or transparent, as if they were running low on white paint. Another thing that I have noticed on Bowser cars is a relatively thin coat of paint. So thin that the coat would not sufficiently be uniform especially around detail parts. Perhaps a primer coat is needed? I guess my point is that if this car is going to cost $30, it really should have a great paint job and high quality lettering. My 2 cents worth regarding a $30 car. : - P Ted Andrews (now laying code 83 track on the Fort Wayne line just west of Hamlet, Indiana) >From: >To: Jerry @ Pennsy ,"Andy Cich" >CC: "Prr-talk" >Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser HO N8 >Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 06:59:24 -0700 > >Jerry, > >While I don't have any particular favorites for N8 numbers, >could you prevail upon Lee to do a good job on color >selection? I think that would be more significant to >modelers than a particular number. > >Bill Daniels >Tucson, AZ > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 13:11:17 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak train breaks down in tunnel Balamer ( or Warshin'ton) in July or August can rival anyplace on earth for unpleasant heat and humidity, including Tex'ass. Jim McDaniel, who lives down at the Ocean on Delmarva, where it's only 96 with a heat index of 105 today. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "James L. McDaniel" Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 13:17:51 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR-Modeling] PRRT&HS Book Sale Ending The new PRRT&HS service is great. I ordered some sale books Wednesday and they appeared Thursday (UPS Ground). Admittedly its only 50 miles from the "store" in Virginia Beach to me but still good service. My only regret is they couldn't come via REA on the PRR car float from Little Creek! Jim McDaniel, in Delmarva as usual ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 13:17:51 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] PRRT&HS Book Sale Ending The new PRRT&HS service is great. I ordered some sale books Wednesday and they appeared Thursday (UPS Ground). Admittedly its only 50 miles from the "store" in Virginia Beach to me but still good service. My only regret is they couldn't come via REA on the PRR car float from Little Creek! Jim McDaniel, in Delmarva as usual ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Reed Kosmal" Subject: Re: [PRR] B6sb, almost ready for Coal and Crew Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 15:41:10 -0400 Gary, That is one fine looking locomotive and tender. Very nice indeed. Reed Kosmal ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 13:29:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Sawicki Subject: [PRR] Tower/CTC Panel indicators --0-200248839-1056832161=:46249 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jeff- In following the discussion on interlocking and track detection, I was wondering what was meant by "7 cut blocks" being needed within the interlocking? Is a cut block the same as an isolated section of track? In looking at the BrynMawr diagram it appears as though there is isolation for 10 track sections, on the 4 track main. 3+2+2+3. (I can also see how Jerry would get the 12, or 3 per track in his example for track detection) Thanks in advance for your response. Chris Sawicki. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-200248839-1056832161=:46249 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Jeff- In following the discussion on interlocking and track detection, I was wondering what was meant by "7 cut blocks" being needed within the interlocking?
 
Is a cut block the same as an isolated section of track?
 
In  looking at the BrynMawr diagram it appears as though there is isolation for 10 track sections, on the 4 track main. 3+2+2+3. (I can also see how Jerry would get the 12, or 3 per track in his example for track detection)
 
Thanks in advance for your response. Chris Sawicki.

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-200248839-1056832161=:46249-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 16:15:56 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Prr Talk - resin kits From: beth capl caples I cant find my notes to save my life! I know this was listed recently so please excuse the re post. What chemical do you clean the resin parts with first to make the glue stick? I will be using acc glue. Thanks, John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Prr Talk - resin kits Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 18:18:31 -0400 John Caples asked: What chemical do you clean the resin parts with first to make the glue stick? I will be using acc glue. The mold release normally doesn't affect glue joints - it affects paint adhesion. Soap and water should do the trick. If you've got some really stubborn mold release, Sylvan Scale Models sells a resin prep solution. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 22:13:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR H10 9981 Frank, list, Following information is from the late William Edson's PRR All-time Steam Roster, page 339. H10s 9981 began life as an H8c. Built by Alco-Brooks, c/n 48823 in February, 1911. Edson doesn't have a date for when the engine was converted to H10s, but she was converted. Sold in November, 1940 to PC&Y as #12. As far as her assignments on the PRR, the trick would be to find an MP229 (motive power assignments) from her era. I have information for PRR's late steam era (1949-57), but not for earlier times. Doug --- Frank Stingone wrote: > I am researching an article for a future P&LERRHS > magazine ("The Little > Giant") article and I am in need of any information > and photos available on > PRR H10s #9981. I know it was sold to the PC&Y in > 1940 and became their > #12, but I have almost nothing on its PRR years. > Anything would be helpful > and greatly appreciated. > > Frank Stingone > VP - PLERRHS > fstingone@earthlink.net __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 11:59:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] B6sb Detail question Lists, As I continue to detail my B6sb I came up with another item I would like to add to the loco. Many B6sb's received a Cinder Screen on the top of the Stack. Does any one know of a really good pic showing how it was actually mounted. I am thinking of modeling it by mounting a Ring around the flange near the top of the stack then using chain, attach a disc shaped ring using mesh for the actual cinder screen. I will leave this dangle as most prototype photos show it was hardly used. Just an added detail that I thought would give more character. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: [PRR] BLI M1a/b Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 15:36:30 -0400

One thing that disappointed me about the M1a sample is that it appears that all the piping above the running boards will be molded on. I find this a little frustrating because the new Rivarossi Allegheny, Life-Like Heritage steam, and the Bachmann Spectrum steam all have separate piping above the running board. I emailed BLI about the upcoming M1a/b based on the pictures. I recieved a pretty quick response. The piping will be molded in and will not be separate. I wonder what the chance are of getting BLI to change their mind. I would not mind paying a little extra for more detail. That being said I will still be getting at least one of the M1b's.
Eric Lauterbach
 
 
--- Eric Lauterbach
--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
 

----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Div6super@aol.com Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 22:41:34 EDT Subject: [PRR] Pittsburgh Youngstown & Ashtabula RR (PRR) --part1_1aa.16c71b3a.2c30fd5e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am in the process of building a layout depicting this 50 mile plus portion of the PRR branch from Ashtabula, OH to Niles, OH The layout will feature the PRR ore and coal docks in Ashtabula. a steel mill in Niles and the significant communities between. Anyone with info or photos I can copy or look at wouls be appreciated. I have a lot of info on this area now. Thanks --part1_1aa.16c71b3a.2c30fd5e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am in the process of building a layout depicting thi= s 50 mile plus portion of the PRR branch from Ashtabula, OH to Niles, OH&nbs= p; The layout will feature the PRR ore and coal docks in Ashtabula. a steel=20= mill in Niles and the significant communities between.  Anyone with inf= o or photos I can copy or look at wouls be appreciated.  I have a lot o= f info on this area now.  Thanks --part1_1aa.16c71b3a.2c30fd5e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bbreynolds@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:20:42 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Railroad Archives Seminar >From an H-NET listserver: ========================================================== Subj: Seminar: Railroad Archives in the Mid-Atlantic States Date: 6/30/2003 12:08:33 PM Eastern Standard Time From: zach@mail.h-net.msu.edu (Zachary M. Schrag) Sender: H-BUSINESS@H-NET.MSU.EDU (History of Business and Commerce) Reply-to: H-BUSINESS@H-NET.MSU.EDU (History of Business and Commerce) To: H-BUSINESS@H-NET.MSU.EDU "Railroad Archives in the Mid-Atlantic States" Location: Maryland ,United States Seminar Date: 2003-07-03 (in 3 days) Date Submitted: 2003-06-25 Announcement ID: 133947 "Railroad Archives in the Mid-Atlantic States" Thursday, July 3, 2003 National Archives at College Park, Lecture Room A 8601 Adelphi Road College Park, MD 9 a.m.-Noon This event is free and open to the public. To register, call or send an email. The seminar is sponsored by the Railway & Locomotive Historical Society as part of the joint R&LHS / National Railway Historical Society annual convention in Baltimore the week of July 1. Seminar Schedule 9:00-10:15 Session 1 - Railroad Archives in the Mid-Atlantic States Introduction: James Hastings, Textual Archives Services Division, NARA Kurt Bell, Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania Chris Baer, Hagley Museum and Library Anne Calhoun, B&O Railroad Museum, Baltimore 10:15-10:30 Break 10:30-11:30 Session 2 - Railroad Records in the National Archives David Pfeiffer, Textual Records, NARA Richard Smith, Cartographic Records, NARA Richard Henderson, Still Pictures, NARA 11:30-noon Optional tour of the research room complex at the National Archives at College Park David Pfeiffer National Archives and Records Administration 8601 Adelphi Road College Park, MD Phone:(301)-837-2052 Email: david.pfeiffer@nara.gov Visit the website at http://www.archives.gov/about_us/calendar_of_events/railroad_resources_seminar .html =========================================================== Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:20:42 EDT Subject: [PRR] Railroad Archives Seminar --part1_1d9.ce745d5.2c31bd5a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From an H-NET listserver: ========================================================== Subj: Seminar: Railroad Archives in the Mid-Atlantic States Date: 6/30/2003 12:08:33 PM Eastern Standard Time From: zach@mail.h-net.msu.edu (Zachary M. Schrag) Sender: H-BUSINESS@H-NET.MSU.EDU (History of Business and Commerce) Reply-to: H-BUSINESS@H-NET.MSU.EDU (History of Business and Commerce) To: H-BUSINESS@H-NET.MSU.EDU "Railroad Archives in the Mid-Atlantic States" Location: Maryland ,United States Seminar Date: 2003-07-03 (in 3 days) Date Submitted: 2003-06-25 Announcement ID: 133947 "Railroad Archives in the Mid-Atlantic States" Thursday, July 3, 2003 National Archives at College Park, Lecture Room A 8601 Adelphi Road College Park, MD 9 a.m.-Noon This event is free and open to the public. To register, call or send an email. The seminar is sponsored by the Railway & Locomotive Historical Society as part of the joint R&LHS / National Railway Historical Society annual convention in Baltimore the week of July 1. Seminar Schedule 9:00-10:15 Session 1 - Railroad Archives in the Mid-Atlantic States Introduction: James Hastings, Textual Archives Services Division, NARA Kurt Bell, Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania Chris Baer, Hagley Museum and Library Anne Calhoun, B&O Railroad Museum, Baltimore 10:15-10:30 Break 10:30-11:30 Session 2 - Railroad Records in the National Archives David Pfeiffer, Textual Records, NARA Richard Smith, Cartographic Records, NARA Richard Henderson, Still Pictures, NARA 11:30-noon Optional tour of the research room complex at the National Archives at College Park David Pfeiffer National Archives and Records Administration 8601 Adelphi Road College Park, MD Phone:(301)-837-2052 Email: david.pfeiffer@nara.gov Visit the website at http://www.archives.gov/about_us/calendar_of_events/railroad_resources_seminar .html =========================================================== Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_1d9.ce745d5.2c31bd5a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From an H-NET listserver:
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Subj: Seminar: Railroad Archives in the Mid-Atlantic States =20
Date: 6/30/2003 12:08:33 PM Eastern Standard Time=20
From:    zach@mail.h-net.msu.edu (Zachary M. Schrag)
Sender:    H-BUSINESS@H-NET.MSU.EDU (History of Business=20= and Commerce)
Reply-to: H-BUSINESS@H-NET.M= SU.EDU (History of Business and Commerce)
To:    H-BUSINESS@H-NET.MSU.EDU
=20
=20


"Railroad Archives in the Mid-Atlantic States"

Location:
Maryland ,United States

Seminar Date:
2003-07-03 (in 3 days)

Date Submitted:
2003-06-25

Announcement ID:
133947

"Railroad Archives in the Mid-Atlantic States"
Thursday, July 3, 2003
National Archives at College Park, Lecture Room A
8601 Adelphi Road
College Park, MD
9 a.m.-Noon

This event is free and open to the public. To register, call or send
an email. The seminar is sponsored by the Railway & Locomotive
Historical Society as part of the joint R&LHS / National Railway
Historical Society annual convention in Baltimore the week of July 1.

Seminar Schedule

9:00-10:15
Session 1 - Railroad Archives in the Mid-Atlantic States
Introduction: James Hastings, Textual Archives Services Division, NARA
Kurt Bell, Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania
Chris Baer, Hagley Museum and Library
Anne Calhoun, B&O Railroad Museum, Baltimore

10:15-10:30 Break

10:30-11:30
Session 2 - Railroad Records in the National Archives
David Pfeiffer, Textual Records, NARA
Richard Smith, Cartographic Records, NARA
Richard Henderson, Still Pictures, NARA

11:30-noon
Optional tour of the research room complex at the National
Archives at College Park

David Pfeiffer
National Archives and Records Administration
8601 Adelphi Road
College Park, MD

Phone:(301)-837-2052

Email: david.pfeiffer@nara.gov
Visit the website at
http://www.archives.gov/about_us/calendar_of_events/railroad_resources_s= eminar.html
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glensi= de PA --part1_1d9.ce745d5.2c31bd5a_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 10:49:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] PRR info in old "Trains" --0-1985344598-1056995356=:70830 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Recently found a copy of "Trains" magazine bound volume no. 7, November 1946 to October 1947 and ran across a couple of items that might be of interest. 1. On pages 6 and 7 of the Feb 1947 issued there is a photo of PRR P85 bR coach number 4100 and about 10 column inches of text on the "new" cars. What I found interesting is that the car is painted solid tuscan with no striping at all. The text comments on this saying that "The color is solid tuscan red, no striping or panels." However, Liljestrand & Sweetland's book on coaches on page 43 shows coach 4080 on Nov 20 1947 and coach 4134 on March 5 1947 both showing the striping. This raises an interesting question as to exactly when and under what conditions the striping was applied. I am particularly interested in this because I am looking for photo information on pre and post-war smoothsides that may show them in the plain tuscan no stripe scheme. I am especially interested in any evidence that any of the pre-war "Brook" series duplex sleepers may have carried this no stripe scheme. 2. Also, on page 6 of the May 1947 issued there is a picture of brand new Baldwin centipede unit 5823 in what appears to be overall DGLE (Brunswick Green), once again with no striping. The caption to the photo specifically states "After tests it will be repainted with gold stipes and keystone like the GG-1's." By the way, the loco does have train antennae on the roof. Hope this is of interest, and any comments would be appreciated. Ron Di Orio --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1985344598-1056995356=:70830 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Recently found a copy of "Trains" magazine bound volume no. 7, November 1946 to October 1947 and ran across a couple of items that might be of interest.
 
1.  On pages 6 and 7 of the Feb 1947 issued there is a photo of PRR P85 bR coach number 4100 and about 10 column inches of text on the "new" cars.  What I found interesting is that the car is painted solid tuscan with no striping at all.  The text comments on this saying that "The color is solid tuscan red, no striping or panels."
However, Liljestrand & Sweetland's book on coaches on page 43 shows coach 4080 on Nov 20 1947 and coach 4134 on March 5 1947 both showing the striping.  This raises an interesting question as to exactly when and under what conditions the striping was applied.
 
I am particularly interested in this because I am looking for photo information on pre and post-war smoothsides that may show them in the plain tuscan no stripe scheme. I am especially interested in any evidence that any of the pre-war "Brook" series duplex sleepers may have carried this no stripe scheme.
 
2.  Also, on page 6 of the May 1947 issued there is a picture of brand new Baldwin centipede unit 5823 in what appears to be overall DGLE (Brunswick Green), once again with no striping.  The caption  to the photo specifically states "After tests it will be repainted with gold stipes and keystone like the GG-1's."   By the way, the loco does have  train antennae on the roof.
 
Hope this is of interest, and any comments would be appreciated.
 
Ron Di Orio

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! --0-1985344598-1056995356=:70830-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR info in old "Trains" Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 14:28:17 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C33F13.D9CEE7D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am wondering if you modellers have figured out a way to get the "rippled skin" effect that all the P85s had because the skin was applied to tight to allow for shrinkage!!! A good guess would be that the gold stripe was added to try to mask the ripples! Bill (not yet a hurricane) -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Ronald Di Orio Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 1:49 PM To: PRR Fax; PRR Talk; Pass Car List Subject: [PRR] PRR info in old "Trains" Recently found a copy of "Trains" magazine bound volume no. 7, November 1946 to October 1947 and ran across a couple of items that might be of interest. 1. On pages 6 and 7 of the Feb 1947 issued there is a photo of PRR P85 bR coach number 4100 and about 10 column inches of text on the "new" cars. What I found interesting is that the car is painted solid tuscan with no striping at all. The text comments on this saying that "The color is solid tuscan red, no striping or panels." However, Liljestrand & Sweetland's book on coaches on page 43 shows coach 4080 on Nov 20 1947 and coach 4134 on March 5 1947 both showing the striping. This raises an interesting question as to exactly when and under what conditions the striping was applied. I am particularly interested in this because I am looking for photo information on pre and post-war smoothsides that may show them in the plain tuscan no stripe scheme. I am especially interested in any evidence that any of the pre-war "Brook" series duplex sleepers may have carried this no stripe scheme. 2. Also, on page 6 of the May 1947 issued there is a picture of brand new Baldwin centipede unit 5823 in what appears to be overall DGLE (Brunswick Green), once again with no striping. The caption to the photo specifically states "After tests it will be repainted with gold stipes and keystone like the GG-1's." By the way, the loco does have train antennae on the roof. Hope this is of interest, and any comments would be appreciated. Ron Di Orio _____ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C33F13.D9CEE7D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
I am=20 wondering if you modellers have figured out a way to get the "rippled = skin"=20 effect that all the P85s had because the skin was applied to tight to = allow for=20 shrinkage!!!  A good guess would be that the gold stripe was added = to try=20 to mask the ripples!
 
Bill=20 (not yet a hurricane)
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of = Ronald Di=20 Orio
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 1:49 PM
To: PRR = Fax; PRR=20 Talk; Pass Car List
Subject: [PRR] PRR info in old=20 "Trains"

Recently found a copy of "Trains" magazine bound volume no. 7, = November=20 1946 to October 1947 and ran across a couple of items that might be of = interest.
 
1.  On pages 6 and 7 of the Feb 1947 issued there is a photo = of PRR=20 P85 bR coach number 4100 and about 10 column inches of text on the = "new"=20 cars.  What I found interesting is that the car is painted solid = tuscan=20 with no striping at all.  The text comments on this saying that = "The=20 color is solid tuscan red, no striping or panels."
However, Liljestrand & Sweetland's book on coaches on page 43 = shows=20 coaevel080 on Nov 20 1947 and coach 4134 on March 5 1947 both showing = the=20 striping.  This raises an interesting question as to exactly when = and=20 under what conditions the striping was applied.
 
I am particularly interested in this because I am looking for = photo=20 information on pre and post-war smoothsides that may show them in the = plain=20 tuscan no stripe scheme. I am especially interested in any evidence = that any=20 of the pre-war "Brook" series duplex sleepers may have carried this no = stripe=20 scheme.
 
2.  Also, on page 6 of the May 1947 issued there is a = picture of=20 brand new Baldwin centipede unit 5823 in what appears to be overall = DGLE=20 (Brunswick Green), once again with no striping.  The = caption  to the=20 photo specifically states "After tests it will be repainted with gold = stipes=20 and keystone like the GG-1's."   By the way, the loco does=20 have  train antennae on the roof.
 
Hope this is of interest, and any comments would be = appreciated.
 
Ron Di Orio

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC=20 Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C33F13.D9CEE7D0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 10:49:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR info in old "Trains" Recently found a copy of "Trains" magazine bound volume no. 7, November 1946 to October 1947 and ran across a couple of items that might be of interest. 1. On pages 6 and 7 of the Feb 1947 issued there is a photo of PRR P85 bR coach number 4100 and about 10 column inches of text on the "new" cars. What I found interesting is that the car is painted solid tuscan with no striping at all. The text comments on this saying that "The color is solid tuscan red, no striping or panels." However, Liljestrand & Sweetland's book on coaches on page 43 shows coach 4080 on Nov 20 1947 and coach 4134 on March 5 1947 both showing the striping. This raises an interesting question as to exactly when and under what conditions the striping was applied. I am particularly interested in this because I am looking for photo information on pre and post-war smoothsides that may show them in the plain tuscan no stripe scheme. I am especially interested in any evidence that any of the pre-war "Brook" series duplex sleepers may have carried this no stripe scheme. 2. Also, on page 6 of the May 1947 issued there is a picture of brand new Baldwin centipede unit 5823 in what appears to be overall DGLE (Brunswick Green), once again with no striping. The caption to the photo specifically states "After tests it will be repainted with gold stipes and keystone like the GG-1's." By the way, the loco does have train antennae on the roof. Hope this is of interest, and any comments would be appreciated. Ron Di Orio --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:58:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR loco#9549 Greetings,Can anyone tell me what type of locomotive #9549(A) was? I found a relatives time book for 1955. He was a Pitts. Div fireman. It would be interesting to know what locos were running up and down the East and West slope in the 1954/55 time frame. a majority of the locos listed are in the 9000 series. He also has listed #9307 as a shifter at South Fork. Is there and online reference source for PRR loco numbers?---Thanks -----------Mark--------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:00:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR loco#9549 Hello Mark, PRR#9549 is class EH-15 (F3). That locomotive was in helper service between Altoona and Conemaugh. Hope this helps. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:32:43 -0400 From: Bill Subject: [PRR] Change of e-mail Please change my e-mail address from prrbill@op.net to prrbill@comcast.net as of 12:01 AM Wednesday, July 2, 2003. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:34:59 -0400 From: Nick Kulp Subject: [PRR] Re:BLI M1a/b --=====================_30606890==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi Eric, >From: "Eric Lauterbach" >Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 15:36:30 -0400 > >One thing that disappointed me about the M1a sample is that it appears >that all the piping above the running boards will be molded on. I find >this a little frustrating because the new Rivarossi Allegheny, Life-Like >Heritage steam, and the Bachmann Spectrum steam all have separate piping >above the running board. I understand what you are saying but think again about what you will be getting. A locomotive that has not been produced (assembled and "super-detailed") before, WITH DCC / DC SOUND, at a price that puts the "Italian / Chinese Brass" way over price. At this price, I would be willing to get the necessary Cary detail parts and add them on myself if I wanted that kind of detail. The locomotive at the show was IMOHO drop-dead georgeous. I have seen enough of the over-detailed brass jewelry that wouldn't run on "average" trackwork. I much prefer a mildly detailed, runnable locomotive that will pull trains, just like the prototype, not gather dust in a display case. My opinion is given freely, at it's exact market value, Nick --=====================_30606890==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Hi Eric,

From: "Eric Lauterbach" <ealauterbach@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 15:36:30 -0400

One thing that disappointed me about the M1a sample is that it appears that all the piping above the running boards will be molded on. I find this a little frustrating because the new Rivarossi Allegheny, Life-Like Heritage steam, and the Bachmann Spectrum steam all have separate piping above the running board.

I understand what you are saying but think again about what you will be getting. A locomotive that has not been produced (assembled and "super-detailed") before, WITH DCC / DC SOUND, at a price that puts the "Italian / Chinese Brass" way over price. At this price, I would be willing to get the necessary Cary detail parts and add them on myself if I wanted that kind of detail.

The locomotive at the show was IMOHO drop-dead georgeous. I have seen enough of the over-detailed brass jewelry that wouldn't run on "average" trackwork. I much prefer a mildly detailed, runnable locomotive that will pull trains, just like the prototype, not gather dust in a display case.

My opinion is given freely, at it's exact market value,
Nick --=====================_30606890==.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 20:55:40 EDT Subject: [PRR] Walthers 4-4-2 Prewar Pullman Model --part1_199.1cab9bd0.2c32360c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was at my local hobby shop this past weekend struggling with whether or not to purchase the Walthers 4-4-2 sleeper. Since I model the 1949 - 1951 timeframe, the complete lack of side skirting is particularly troublesome to me. Most Pennsy passenger cars didn't receive this type of modification until the late 50's / early 60's. Then I spied a Union Pacific version of the Walthers car on the shelf and, lo and behold, the UP version has side skirts! I'd like to model one or more of these cars as the PRR received them -- FOM paint scheme with the "Challenger" type 43-R triple-bolster trucks. I don't mind changing out the Walthers trucks but I'm hesitant to destroy the nice UP paint job to T>&nhe FOM. Since Walthers has obviously made this model in a skirted version, and since they describe the PRR paint scheme they use as the "Late Scheme" has anyone discovered whether Walthers intends to do an "Early Scheme" of the Pennsy 4-4-2 with the FOM colors and the side skirts? If not I guess I'll have to tackle a conversion on the UP version of the model.... Chris Baker #1918 --part1_199.1cab9bd0.2c32360c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was at my local hobby shop this past weekend struggl= ing with whether or not to purchase the Walthers 4-4-2 sleeper.  Since=20= I model the 1949 - 1951 timeframe, the complete lack of side skirting is par= ticularly troublesome to me.  Most Pennsy passenger cars didn't receive= this type of modification until the late 50's / early 60's. 

Then I spied a Union Pacific version of the Walthers car on the shelf and, l= o and behold, the UP version has side skirts!  I'd like to model one or= more of these cars as the PRR received them -- FOM paint scheme with the "C= hallenger" type 43-R triple-bolster trucks.  I don't mind changing out=20= the Walthers trucks but I'm hesitant to destroy the nice UP paint job to do=20= the FOM.

Since Walthers has obviously made this model in a skirted version, and since= they describe the PRR paint scheme they use as the "Late Scheme" has anyone= discovered whether Walthers intends to do an "Early Scheme" of the Pennsy 4= -4-2 with the FOM colors and the side skirts?  If not I guess I'll have= to tackle a conversion on the UP version of the model....


Chris Baker  #1918 --part1_199.1cab9bd0.2c32360c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] Walthers 4-4-2 Prewar Pullman Model Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 20:07:00 -0500 Walthers does offer an undercorated model. Let us know when you get it done in the FOM scheme, since that will be a good indicator that in a short time Walthers will announce a factory painted version of the model. Andy Cich -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 7:56 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Walthers 4-4-2 Prewar Pullman Model I was at my local hobby shop this past weekend struggling with whether or not to purchase the Walthers 4-4-2 sleeper. Since I model the 1949 - 1951 timeframe, the complete lack of side skirting is particularly troublesome to me. Most Pennsy passenger cars didn't receive this type of modification until the late 50's / early 60's. Then I spied a Union Pacific version of the Walthers car on the shelf and, lo and behold, the UP version has side skirts! I'd like to model one or more of these cars as the PRR received them -- FOM paint scheme with the "Challenger" type 43-R triple-bolster trucks. I don't mind changing out the Walthers trucks but I'm hesitant to destroy the nice UP paint job to do the FOM. Since Walthers has obviously made this model in a skirted version, and since they describe the PRR paint scheme they use as the "Late Scheme" has anyone discovered whether Walthers intends to do an "Early Scheme" of the Pennsy 4-4-2 with the FOM colors and the side skirts? If not I guess I'll have to tackle a conversion on the UP version of the model.... Chris Baker #1918 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 21:12:16 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers 4-4-2 Prewar Pullman Model --part1_1a1.172cfbe2.2c3239f0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the tip about the undec version of the model. I didn't see one at my hobby shop but I'm sure they'd be happy to order one for me if that's what I end up doing! Chris B --part1_1a1.172cfbe2.2c3239f0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the tip about the undec version of the mode= l.  I didn't see one at my hobby shop but I'm sure they'd be happy to o= rder one for me if that's what I end up doing!

Chris B --part1_1a1.172cfbe2.2c3239f0_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 22:07:51 EDT Subject: [PRR] Off subj. - Protot 1000 DL-109 --part1_1ca.cd7c516.2c3246f7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a request for help in locating a new unit from a retailer. Please delete if not interested. Thank you, Evan I am trying to locate a Rock Island DL-109. If your local hobby shop should have one of these in stock, I would greatly appreciate the necessary information to contact the shop to order it. Many thanks, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 --part1_1ca.cd7c516.2c3246f7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   This is a request for help in locating a new un= it from a retailer.  Please delete if not interested.  Thank you,&= nbsp; Evan

  I am trying to locate a Rock Island DL-109.  If your local hobby= shop should have one of these in stock,  I would greatly appreciate th= e necessary information to contact the shop to order it.

Many thanks,

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS  346 --part1_1ca.cd7c516.2c3246f7_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re:BLI M1a/b Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 22:19:22 -0400 I am not really complaining. I am very happy that BLI is making this engine, as it is my favorite Pennsy engine. I also think it is a pretty good deal, especially considering it has sound and what looks to be an awesome tender. I just wish that they would give us a few more separate details above the running boards. Their Hudson even has more separate details above the running boards. I am still getting one, this hasn't put me off. I will probably end up with two. I just figure that it could never hurt to ask. Plus, BLI seems pretty responsive to customer feed back. Eric --- Eric Lauterbach --- ealauterbach@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!!