From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] E-Bay item 3110068040 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:24:44 -0500 The Walther's Jordan spreader kit is very much like a PRR Jorden spreader I photographed and measured on a siding in Lancaster, Pa. many years ago. Walther's model was close enough to the real thing that I decided not to bother kitbashing. No, I don't know where the photos are at the moment. I bought several kits and built two and still have one unbuilt. I didn't have problems with mine although I used mine in well detailed static displays set up close to the edge of the layout. Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F Smith" To: "Ronald Di Orio" Cc: "PRR Fax" ; "PRR Modeling" ; "PRR Talk" Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 10:21 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] E-Bay item 3110068040 > On Mon, 27 Jan 2003, Ronald Di Orio wrote: > > > Is this an accurate model of a PRR prototype, either the crane (or should I > say derrick) or the boom car? What about the paint scheme? It would seem to > me that the crane should be all black, and that cranes were never painted > either grey or yellow. If model is indeed accurate, what were the classes of > the equipment and possible numbers? And speaking of MOW equipment, did the PRR > ever have Jordan spreaders like the one offered by Walthers in HO? > > Ronald, > > The PRR did have 250 ton Derricks, although the Bachman model is > relatively crude and certainly doesn't look like Pennsy's. Among the > problems I note right away are the grossly out of scale main hook and the > extra tall stack. As you note, the derrick should be black, and that boom > car...that's amusing...a truss rod car with a 250 ton > derrick...interesting...accurate??? (probably not) Boom cars were usually > modified steel flat cars (class FM, FGR, FGRA) or gons (GR, GRA). The > only "boom cars" I know of with the little house on them were the class > FXL cars used as idler cars for crawler cranes. > > As for Jordan spreaders, the answer is a cautious yes. PRR Color Guide 3 > has a photo of Jordan 497404, built May 1929 that appears to have a > similar front blade. It is difficult to tell, but it appears to have a > wood sheathed cab. I would caution you that the Walthers kit is > relatively poorly engineered. I had a great deal of difficulty witht hte > mounting of the blade mechanism, as it couldn't support its own weight. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: [PRR] Power Generation Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 08:27:39 -0500 I understand that the blower motors in the Tunnel Hill area were originally powered by steam generated electricity and later replaced by the current diesel powered genereating equipment. Can anyone give me an idea of when this change occurred? Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 09:13:34 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Power Generation From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" on 2/1/03 8:27 AM, parkvarieties at parkvarieties@provide.net wrote: > I understand that the blower motors in the Tunnel Hill area were originally > powered by steam generated electricity and later replaced by the current > diesel powered genereating equipment. Can anyone > give me an idea of when this change occurred? Thanks. I can't pin down an exact era, but everything tells me it was done prior to 1954. I suspect late '40's. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 09:25:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Feb 1,1968...35 years ago today It was 35 years ago today that the Pennsylvania RR and the New York Central RR merged into Penn Central. The PRR officiallly became a "fallen flag"..............and the rest is history. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Feb 1,1968...35 years ago today Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 09:46:56 -0500 Did ya havta remind us??? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 9:25 AM Subject: [PRR] Feb 1,1968...35 years ago today > > It was 35 years ago today that the Pennsylvania RR and the New > York Central RR merged into Penn Central. The PRR officiallly became a > "fallen flag"..............and the rest is history. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 10:12:26 EST Subject: [PRR] Items for Sale,paper,books,n scale --part1_42.34763573.2b6d3dda_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0 I have the following items for sale. Please contact OFF list wi= th the=20 above subject with questions. Prices DO NOT incl shp. PRR CT 1000E May,1945-Good cond with Phila Div pages=20 =A0=A0 notched out along edge. $ 30 PRR CT 1000C May,1945-Very good cond,slight wear on bottom spine and cover =A0 corners from shelf wear=A0=A0 $ 85 PRR Loco Test Plant Book No.21 for Class E6=A0 $20 PRR Pocket calenders-1957 & 1960=A0 $ 6 PRR Land Book of 1890 for South West Pennsylvania RailWay=A0 $300 PRR CT1515 Qualification Card-New,never issued=A0 $6 PRR MW200 Machinery Qualification Card- New,never issued=A0 $5 PRR MW52(D) Manual of Instructions for MW Equip. NO COVER,=20 =A0=A0 dated 1-1-60=A0 $35 PRR Demurrage Card-pad, unused=A0 $5 PRR Application for Position-Pad of 100 unused,for bidding on jobs=A0 $5 PRR Deposit Slip book-Pad,unused=A0 $5 PRR Annual Report-1930 $30 PRR Annual Report-1945=A0 $25 PRR Annual Reports-1953,58=A0 $12 PRR Annual Reports-1952,55,59,60,61,62=A0 $15 PRR 1st Annual Report 1848 (1894 reprint)Front cover loose,pages brittle=A0=20= $50 PRR Cent. Reg.ETT No.1, 10-25-64,Used,cover there,not attached, =A0 has all G.O.'s=A0 $18=A0=20 PRR Cent. Reg.ETT No.4, 10-27-67,Good used cond,has all G.O.'s=A0 $22 PRR Storage stamps for baggage-full book of 100 - 5 cents, 35 cents, =A0 75 cents=A0 $10 bk=20 PRR Leather Conductors wallet (well used)name still visible $5 PRR 25 year Bronze service pin=A0 $30 PRR N-Scale Atlas SD35-#6025 & 6018,New,Not run,SELL AS A PAIR=A0 $95 PC Leather conductors Wallet-Good cond=A0 $18 PC CT-225-G Haz. Mtl. Reg-plastic cover,good cond=A0 $12 PC 1969 Annual Report-Fair cond-water mark=A0 $5 PC MW1-New Unused=A0 $ 16 PC MW4-Used but excellent cond,field notes on some pages,1section=20 =A0 for inspection,1 section for construction=A0=A0 $20=20 PC Conductor & Trainman Hat Badges=A0=A0 $40 PC Lapel pins for Cond. & Trainman uniform=A0 $40 CR Lapel pins for Cond. & Trainman uniform=A0=A0 $40 CR First Aid Kit-New,unused,Large square metal case with red Conrail & logo= =A0=20 $40 CR Hardhat-MW-New,unused,1 safari style=A0 $18, 2 reg style=A0 $15 CR Annual Report-1987=A0 $12 CR MW-4,NEW,never used,has a couple of small rub marks across logo but other wise excellent.=A0 $30 Pullman Brass Car Door handles-From Heavyweight cars,old former camp cars, =A0 some dinges and dents mostly to door knob,latch moves,heavy=A0 $40=A0=20 Great Northern Atlas N scale FA1 (2 units)-older stock,not run,tested only= =A0=20 $55pr EL ETT #4=A0 2-24-74=A0 $15 Thank you. Pat McKinney --part1_42.34763573.2b6d3dda_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List
=A0=A0=A0=A0 I have the following items for sale. Please contact OFF list wi= th the above subject with questions. Prices DO NOT incl shp.

PRR CT 1000E May,1945-Good cond with Phila Div pages
=A0=A0 notched out along edge. $ 30
PRR CT 1000C May,1945-Very good cond,slight wear on bottom spine and cover =A0 corners from shelf wear=A0=A0 $ 85
PRR Loco Test Plant Book No.21 for Class E6=A0 $20=
PRR Pocket calenders-1957 & 1960=A0 $ 6
PRR Land Book of 1890 for South West Pennsylvania RailWay=A0 $300
PRR CT1515 Qualification Card-New,never issued=A0 $6<= /B>
PRR MW200 Machinery Qualification Card- New,never issued=A0 $5
PRR MW52(D) Manual of Instructions for MW Equip. NO COVER,
=A0=A0 dated 1-1-60=A0 $3= 5
PRR Demurrage Card-pad, unused=A0 $5
PRR Application for Position-Pad of 100 unused,for bidding on jobs=A0 $5
PRR Deposit Slip book-Pad,unused=A0 $5
PRR Annual Report-1930 $3= 0
PRR Annual Report-1945=A0 $25
PRR Annual Reports-1953,58=A0 $12
PRR Annual Reports-1952,55,59,60,61,62=A0 $15
PRR 1st Annual Report 1848 (1894 reprint)Front cover loose,pages brittle=A0=20= $50
PRR Cent. Reg.ETT No.1, 10-25-64,Used,cover there,not attached,
=A0 has all G.O.'s=A0 $18= =A0
PRR Cent. Reg.ETT No.4, 10-27-67,Good used cond,has all G.O.'s=A0 $22
PRR Storage stamps for baggage-full book of 100 - 5 cents, 35 cents,
=A0 75 cents=A0 $10 bk
PRR Leather Conductors wallet (well used)name still visible $5
PRR 25 year Bronze service pin=A0 $30
PRR N-Scale Atlas SD35-#6025 & 6018,New,Not run,SELL AS A PAIR=A0 $95
PC Leather conductors Wallet-Good cond=A0 $18
PC CT-225-G Haz. Mtl. Reg-plastic cover,good cond=A0 $12
PC 1969 Annual Report-Fair cond-water mark=A0 $5<= BR> PC MW1-New Unused=A0 $ 16=
PC MW4-Used but excellent cond,field notes on some pages,1section
=A0 for inspection,1 section for construction=A0=A0 $20
PC Conductor & Trainman Hat Badges=A0=A0 $40<= BR> PC Lapel pins for Cond. & Trainman uniform=A0 $40=
CR Lapel pins for Cond. & Trainman uniform=A0=A0 $40
CR First Aid Kit-New,unused,Large square metal case with red Conrail & l= ogo=A0 $40
CR Hardhat-MW-New,unused,1 safari style=A0 $18, 2= reg style=A0 $15<= FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY= =3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">
CR Annual Report-1987=A0 = $12
CR MW-4,NEW,never used,has a couple of small rub marks across logo
but other wise excellent.=A0 $30
Pullman Brass Car Door handles-From Heavyweight cars,old former camp cars, =A0 some dinges and dents mostly to door knob,latch moves,heavy=A0 $40=A0
Great Northern Atlas N scale FA1 (2 units)-older stock,not run,tested only= =A0 $55pr
EL ETT #4=A0 2-24-74=A0 $= 15

Thank you.
Pat McKinney



 --part1_42.34763573.2b6d3dda_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 10:12:26 EST Subject: [PRR] Items for Sale,paper,books,n scale --part1_42.34763573.2b6d3dda_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0 I have the following items for sale. Please contact OFF list wi= th the=20 above subject with questions. Prices DO NOT incl shp. PRR CT 1000E May,1945-Good cond with Phila Div pages=20 =A0=A0 notched out along edge. $ 30 PRR CT 1000C May,1945-Very good cond,slight wear on bottom spine and cover =A0 corners from shelf wear=A0=A0 $ 85 PRR Loco Test Plant Book No.21 for Class E6=A0 $20 PRR Pocket calenders-1957 & 1960=A0 $ 6 PRR Land Book of 1890 for South West Pennsylvania RailWay=A0 $300 PRR CT1515 Qualification Card-New,never issued=A0 $6 PRR MW200 Machinery Qualification Card- New,never issued=A0 $5 PRR MW52(D) Manual of Instructions for MW Equip. NO COVER,=20 =A0=A0 dated 1-1-60=A0 $35 PRR Demurrage Card-pad, unused=A0 $5 PRR Application for Position-Pad of 100 unused,for bidding on jobs=A0 $5 PRR Deposit Slip book-Pad,unused=A0 $5 PRR Annual Report-1930 $30 PRR Annual Report-1945=A0 $25 PRR Annual Reports-1953,58=A0 $12 PRR Annual Reports-1952,55,59,60,61,62=A0 $15 PRR 1st Annual Report 1848 (1894 reprint)Front cover loose,pages brittle=A0=20= $50 PRR Cent. Reg.ETT No.1, 10-25-64,Used,cover there,not attached, =A0 has all G.O.'s=A0 $18=A0=20 PRR Cent. Reg.ETT No.4, 10-27-67,Good used cond,has all G.O.'s=A0 $22 PRR Storage stamps for baggage-full book of 100 - 5 cents, 35 cents, =A0 75 cents=A0 $10 bk=20 PRR Leather Conductors wallet (well used)name still visible $5 PRR 25 year Bronze service pin=A0 $30 PRR N-Scale Atlas SD35-#6025 & 6018,New,Not run,SELL AS A PAIR=A0 $95 PC Leather conductors Wallet-Good cond=A0 $18 PC CT-225-G Haz. Mtl. Reg-plastic cover,good cond=A0 $12 PC 1969 Annual Report-Fair cond-water mark=A0 $5 PC MW1-New Unused=A0 $ 16 PC MW4-Used but excellent cond,field notes on some pages,1section=20 =A0 for inspection,1 section for construction=A0=A0 $20=20 PC Conductor & Trainman Hat Badges=A0=A0 $40 PC Lapel pins for Cond. & Trainman uniform=A0 $40 CR Lapel pins for Cond. & Trainman uniform=A0=A0 $40 CR First Aid Kit-New,unused,Large square metal case with red Conrail & logo= =A0=20 $40 CR Hardhat-MW-New,unused,1 safari style=A0 $18, 2 reg style=A0 $15 CR Annual Report-1987=A0 $12 CR MW-4,NEW,never used,has a couple of small rub marks across logo but other wise excellent.=A0 $30 Pullman Brass Car Door handles-From Heavyweight cars,old former camp cars, =A0 some dinges and dents mostly to door knob,latch moves,heavy=A0 $40=A0=20 Great Northern Atlas N scale FA1 (2 units)-older stock,not run,tested only= =A0=20 $55pr EL ETT #4=A0 2-24-74=A0 $15 Thank you. Pat McKinney --part1_42.34763573.2b6d3dda_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List
=A0=A0=A0=A0 I have the following items for sale. Please contact OFF list wi= th the above subject with questions. Prices DO NOT incl shp.

PRR CT 1000E May,1945-Good cond with Phila Div pages
=A0=A0 notched out along edge. $ 30
PRR CT 1000C May,1945-Very good cond,slight wear on bottom spine and cover =A0 corners from shelf wear=A0=A0 $ 85
PRR Loco Test Plant Book No.21 for Class E6=A0 $20=
PRR Pocket calenders-1957 & 1960=A0 $ 6
PRR Land Book of 1890 for South West Pennsylvania RailWay=A0 $300
PRR CT1515 Qualification Card-New,never issued=A0 $6<= /B>
PRR MW200 Machinery Qualification Card- New,never issued=A0 $5
PRR MW52(D) Manual of Instructions for MW Equip. NO COVER,
=A0=A0 dated 1-1-60=A0 $3= 5
PRR Demurrage Card-pad, unused=A0 $5
PRR Application for Position-Pad of 100 unused,for bidding on jobs=A0 $5
PRR Deposit Slip book-Pad,unused=A0 $5
PRR Annual Report-1930 $3= 0
PRR Annual Report-1945=A0 $25
PRR Annual Reports-1953,58=A0 $12
PRR Annual Reports-1952,55,59,60,61,62=A0 $15
PRR 1st Annual Report 1848 (1894 reprint)Front cover loose,pages brittle=A0=20= $50
PRR Cent. Reg.ETT No.1, 10-25-64,Used,cover there,not attached,
=A0 has all G.O.'s=A0 $18= =A0
PRR Cent. Reg.ETT No.4, 10-27-67,Good used cond,has all G.O.'s=A0 $22
PRR Storage stamps for baggage-full book of 100 - 5 cents, 35 cents,
=A0 75 cents=A0 $10 bk
PRR Leather Conductors wallet (well used)name still visible $5
PRR 25 year Bronze service pin=A0 $30
PRR N-Scale Atlas SD35-#6025 & 6018,New,Not run,SELL AS A PAIR=A0 $95
PC Leather conductors Wallet-Good cond=A0 $18
PC CT-225-G Haz. Mtl. Reg-plastic cover,good cond=A0 $12
PC 1969 Annual Report-Fair cond-water mark=A0 $5<= BR> PC MW1-New Unused=A0 $ 16=
PC MW4-Used but excellent cond,field notes on some pages,1section
=A0 for inspection,1 section for construction=A0=A0 $20
PC Conductor & Trainman Hat Badges=A0=A0 $40<= BR> PC Lapel pins for Cond. & Trainman uniform=A0 $40=
CR Lapel pins for Cond. & Trainman uniform=A0=A0 $40
CR First Aid Kit-New,unused,Large square metal case with red Conrail & l= ogo=A0 $40
CR Hardhat-MW-New,unused,1 safari style=A0 $18, 2= reg style=A0 $15<= FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY= =3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">
CR Annual Report-1987=A0 = $12
CR MW-4,NEW,never used,has a couple of small rub marks across logo
but other wise excellent.=A0 $30
Pullman Brass Car Door handles-From Heavyweight cars,old former camp cars, =A0 some dinges and dents mostly to door knob,latch moves,heavy=A0 $40=A0
Great Northern Atlas N scale FA1 (2 units)-older stock,not run,tested only= =A0 $55pr
EL ETT #4=A0 2-24-74=A0 $= 15

Thank you.
Pat McKinney



 --part1_42.34763573.2b6d3dda_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 10:21:09 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Feb 1,1968...35 years ago today In a message dated 2/1/03 8:56:38 AM, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: << It was 35 years ago today that the Pennsylvania RR and the New York Central RR merged into Penn Central. The PRR officiallly became a "fallen flag"..............and the rest is history. >> I have to take some of the responsibility for this. I told them in late 1966 that I wanted a raise and an official promotion to the position I was actually filling, along with my own job. They declined and said that I was, of course, free to find another job. I warned them that, if I left, it was downhill from there for the Pennsy. They said that it was a risk they would have to take (at least, that is how I remember it now). So, I found another job and left the PRR effective October 14, 1966. And, about 15 months later, the PRR ceased to exist. Most of my colleagues in the administrative areas went to the merged company. And, for the next couple of years where I kept some contacts, I heard nothing but stories of the friction between the red team and the green team. What I am not sure of is how, when or why the Penn Central failed. And, since I never worked for the outfit, I've never bothered to check. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 09:18:15 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR class POS211 Ods --0-688077495-1044119895=:89437 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii There is information on kitbashing a POS211 from AHM cars at http://varnish.pennsyrr.com/PRROBS.html. Others have already sent you the names. Ron John Sheets wrote:PRR Class POS 211 2 Drawing room/1 Comparment/1 DBR Observations Pullman Built were numbered car 8421-8427 Did they also have names? TIA John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-688077495-1044119895=:89437 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

There is information on kitbashing a POS211 from AHM cars at http://varnish.pennsyrr.com/PRROBS.html. Others have already sent you the names.   Ron

 John Sheets <john@mpa-inc.com> wrote:

PRR Class POS 211 2 Drawing room/1 Comparment/1 DBR Observations

Pullman Built were numbered car 8421-8427

Did they also have names?

TIA
John


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-688077495-1044119895=:89437-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 12:27:17 -0500 From: Ken Meyer Subject: Re: [PRR] Feb 1,1968...35 years ago today Long live the Pennsylvania Railroad. zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > It was 35 years ago today that the Pennsylvania RR and the New >York Central RR merged into Penn Central. The PRR officiallly became a >"fallen flag"..............and the rest is history. > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 09:31:20 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Bowser I1 "RealisM' --0-1729054476-1044120680=:49890 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Check out the photos of I-1s in Pennsy Power. The three sets of blind drivers are clearly visible, and as you mentioned, appear awfully wide. Ron VVA249@aol.com wrote:In a message dated 1/31/03 12:14:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, thayden@keithley.com writes: I see several good suggestions about replacing the 2 and 4 blind drivers with flanged drivers. I think that would make the model look more realistic. In terms of "realism" It's been a while since I visited the sole surviving I-1 in Buffalo but, as I recall, the last "Real" one (which should be some measure of "realism") had three axles worth of "blinded" drivers. Center axle had blind tires which must have been 10" wide --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1729054476-1044120680=:49890 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Check out the photos of I-1s in Pennsy Power.  The three sets of blind drivers are clearly visible, and as you mentioned, appear awfully wide.   Ron

 VVA249@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 1/31/03 12:14:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, thayden@keithley.com writes:


I see several good suggestions about replacing the 2 and 4 blind drivers
with flanged drivers. I think that would make the model look more
realistic.

In terms of "realism"


It's been a while since I visited the sole surviving I-1 in Buffalo but, as I recall, the
last "Real" one (which should be some measure of "realism")
had three axles worth of "blinded" drivers.


Center axle had blind tires which must have been 10" wide




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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1729054476-1044120680=:49890-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 09:41:07 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] P-54 Coaches, X42 express boxes --0-657539002-1044121267=:37408 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii 1. P-54 coaches. Were these used in suburban service anywhere in the Pittsburgh area, either before or after the electrification of the Main Line to Paoli? For that matter, were the coaches used as non electrified coaches anywhere other than in the Philadelphia-New York metro area? 2. Express Box X42 (Car nos. 2540-2549). Anyone know where I can find plans or at least major dimensions? Have a a couple of photographs, that's not the problem. Thanks. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-657539002-1044121267=:37408 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

1.  P-54 coaches.  Were these used in suburban service anywhere in the Pittsburgh area, either before or after the electrification of the Main Line to Paoli?  For that matter, were the coaches used as non electrified coaches anywhere other than in the Philadelphia-New York metro area?

2.  Express Box X42 (Car nos. 2540-2549).  Anyone know where I can find plans or at least major dimensions?  Have a a couple of photographs, that's not the problem.

Thanks.  Ron

 


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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-657539002-1044121267=:37408-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don Millbranth" Subject: [PRR] PRR Items for Sale Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 12:49:13 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0460_01C2C9F0.52B1C030 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have one item left for sale on e-Bay, item #2156403574 (4 PRR Time = Tables) . Other items will be forthcoming in the near future. Thanks.. Don ------=_NextPart_000_0460_01C2C9F0.52B1C030 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks..
Don
------=_NextPart_000_0460_01C2C9F0.52B1C030-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Phil Paskos" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Bowser I1 "RealisM' Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 13:44:24 -0500 The 2 basic reasons blind drivers are wide is because they are normally made that way by cutting the flanges off. This increases the effective width of the wheels and for good reason if you are going to run on tight a tight radius turn. They could jam on the rails and cause a derailment. They don't look good, But... If you all know this I apologize for preaching to the "choir" . Phil > > Check out the photos of I-1s in Pennsy Power. The three sets of blind drivers are clearly visible, and as you mentioned, appear awfully wide. Ron > VVA249@aol.com wrote:In a message dated 1/31/03 12:14:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, thayden@keithley.com writes: > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 11:20:28 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] P-54 Coaches, X42 express boxes Hi Ronald, Ronald asked: > 1. P-54 coaches. Were these used in suburban service anywhere > in the Pittsburgh area, either before or after the electrification > of the Main Line to Paoli? I don't know. > For that matter, were the coaches used as non electrified > coaches anywhere other than in the Philadelphia-New York metro area? Apparently yes. "Pennsy Power" by Stauffer pg 136 bottom shows a train of three P54 coaches behind E7s 8588, dated Aug 4, 1929 leaving Union Station, Chicago. - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR class POS211 Ods Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 11:24:58 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0728_01C2C9E4.8DA4CEF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One of the cars has been made AMTRAK compatible and is currently stored = at the ATSF station in Winslow AZ. approx 2 blocks east of the famous = "corner" Bennett ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ronald Di Orio=20 To: John Sheets ; PRR Talk=20 Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 9:18 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR class POS211 Ods There is information on kitbashing a POS211 from AHM cars at = http://varnish.pennsyrr.com/PRROBS.html. Others have already sent you = the names. Ron=20 John Sheets wrote:=20 PRR Class POS 211 2 Drawing room/1 Comparment/1 DBR Observations Pullman Built were numbered car 8421-8427 Did they also have names? TIA John = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------=_NextPart_000_0728_01C2C9E4.8DA4CEF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
One of the cars has been made AMTRAK = compatible and=20 is currently stored at the ATSF station in Winslow AZ. approx 2 blocks = east of=20 the famous "corner"
 
Bennett
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ronald = Di Orio=20
Sent: Saturday, February 01, = 2003 9:18=20 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR class = POS211=20 Ods

There is information on kitbashing a POS211 from AHM cars at http://varnish.pennsyrr.= com/PRROBS.html. Others=20 have already sent you the names.   Ron=20

 John Sheets <john@mpa-inc.com> = wrote:=20 PRR=20 Class POS 211 2 Drawing room/1 Comparment/1 DBR = Observations

Pullman=20 Built were numbered car 8421-8427

Did they also have=20 = names?

TIA
John


------------------------------------= -----------------------------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit = http://lists.dsop.com.


Do you Yahoo!?
Yaho= o! Mail=20 Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign= up=20 now ------=_NextPart_000_0728_01C2C9E4.8DA4CEF0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 13:10:21 -0600 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] MP-54 coaches Hello, all, Class MP-54 coaches, combines, and other variations were used all over the PRR system, but especially in suburban services such as Philadelphia and Pittsburgh. As far as I can tell, the class designation (at least in 1920) was MP-54, even for non-electrified cars. There were around 600 class -54 cars in 1920, the majority of which were non-electrified. Outside of suburban service, these cars seemed most likely to be assigned to the lower density branch lines. George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 15:58:03 EST Subject: [PRR] Battery Car Trucks --part1_112.1e2b692e.2b6d8edb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First, thanks to all for the informative responses to the battery car brake details and assignment questions. One last question on the battery car. Noticed in the scanned photo that the truck design used on this car has both coil and leaf springs. Is this a Pennsy design and if so what was the PRR designator? Is this truck or leaf springs available in HO scale? Walthers had made caboose trucks leaf springs about a decade ago but they are long gone. Oops, that's three questions. Many thanks, Evan Leisey --part1_112.1e2b692e.2b6d8edb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   First, thanks to all for the informative responses to the battery car brake details and assignment questions.

  One last question on the battery car.  Noticed in the scanned photo that the truck design used on this car has both coil and leaf springs. Is this a Pennsy design and if so what was the PRR designator?  Is this truck or leaf springs available in HO scale?  Walthers had made caboose trucks leaf springs about a decade ago but they are long gone.

  Oops, that's three questions.

  Many thanks,

  Evan Leisey


   --part1_112.1e2b692e.2b6d8edb_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 15:42:42 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Feb 1,1968...35 years ago today Marty, what a load off my mind. The New York Central was still making a profit when I left there in 1966...and then they went downgrade, too...I have always had these guilt feelings. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------ Marty wrote: ....... I have to take some of the responsibility for this..... ...So, I found another job and left the PRR effective October 14, 1966. And, about 15 months later, the PRR ceased to exist.... Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Battery Car Trucks Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 16:48:14 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C2CA11.B66F56C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Evan, Don't know about HO, but Micro-Trains makes this truck in N scale. They = call it a "coil-elliptic" truck. Perhapds Kadee makes the same thing in = HO. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RDG2124@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 3:58 PM Subject: [PRR] Battery Car Trucks First, thanks to all for the informative responses to the battery = car brake details and assignment questions.=20 One last question on the battery car. Noticed in the scanned photo = that the truck design used on this car has both coil and leaf springs. = Is this a Pennsy design and if so what was the PRR designator? Is this = truck or leaf springs available in HO scale? Walthers had made caboose = trucks leaf springs about a decade ago but they are long gone. Oops, that's three questions. Many thanks, Evan Leisey =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C2CA11.B66F56C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Evan,
 
Don't know about HO, but Micro-Trains makes this = truck in N=20 scale. They call it a "coil-elliptic" truck. Perhapds Kadee makes the = same thing=20 in HO.
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RDG2124@aol.com=20
Sent: Saturday, February 01, = 2003 3:58=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Battery Car = Trucks

  First, thanks to all for the informative = responses=20 to the battery car brake details and assignment questions. =

  One=20 last question on the battery car.  Noticed in the scanned photo = that the=20 truck design used on this car has both coil and leaf springs. Is this = a Pennsy=20 design and if so what was the PRR designator?  Is this truck or = leaf=20 springs available in HO scale?  Walthers had made caboose trucks = leaf=20 springs about a decade ago but they are long gone.

  Oops, = that's=20 three questions.

  Many thanks,

  Evan=20 Leisey


   = ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C2CA11.B66F56C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 18:52:39 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] P-54 Coaches, X42 express boxes In a message dated 2/1/03 11:52:50 AM Central Standard Time, prr2249@yahoo.com writes: << For that matter, were the coaches used as non electrified coaches anywhere other than in the Philadelphia-New York metro area? >> Chicago. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 19:02:32 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Battery Car Trucks In a message dated 2/1/03 3:06:17 PM Central Standard Time, RDG2124@aol.com writes: << Is this a Pennsy design and if so what was the PRR designator? Is this truck or leaf springs available in HO scale? >> Pennsy design. I have a vague recollection Sunshine Models made this truck in a metal casting kit. Can anyone else confirm? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 19:14:36 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Cabins in NK4, CK, SK1b In a message dated 1/31/03 7:58:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Schemes > From: > Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 19:50:36 EST > > > --part1_1a3.10108df1.2b6c73dc_boundary > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Jerry: > > The Pennsylvania Railroad Compendium on begining on page 106 has the cabin > car arrangement of letters drawings based upon those reproduced drawings: > > Shadow Keystone > ND, NDA, N6, N6B drawing date 1-5-56 > N5, N5A, N5B, N5C, N5D, N5E, N5F drawing stged 12-8-55 > N8 drawing 12-15-55 > > All the shadow keystone revised drawings are post 1954 freight car SK > > Plain Keystone are all dated 12-61 > > Rich Orr > True -- To be more specific, those post-1954 SK lettering arrangement schemes conform to the stencils of phase SK1b. Notice that the issue dates of the drawings reinforce the idea that there were NO SK1a cabin cars (or flats, or gons, or stock cars, etc.). Going back into the past, most of us are familiar with the 1948 CK variant that was standard on N8 cabins (and only on N8) -- that one used a Circle Keystone. There's enough evidence that around 1931 the PRR painted a few cabins in an experimental CK scheme using the circle keystone -- or else they painted the same car in each scheme sequentially. However, this/these schemes were withdrawn, and so PRR cabin cars continued to be lettered in 1926's NK4 scheme (no keystone) until the SK1b came along. There's more on this in my Summer 2002 Keystone article, and I hope to illustrate a cabin article on this someday. Jerry, as applied to your 1954 layout, the good/bad news is that you'll have no Shadow Keystone cabins at all. Further, the only cabins with CK showing will be the N8's. And your freight car fleet will be a sea of CK, with almost no SK1a or SK1b showing. I know you picked 1954 for good reason. But for freight cars and cabins, a 1955 or 1956 cutoff would add much more variety (both paint schemes and new freight cars). This is the kind of consideration that drives us era-modelers nuts... Best wishes, Rick Tipton Who's now waffling between summer 1966 and summer 1968 for the new Buckeye Division layout. You wouldn't believe how much difference 2 years made in the equipment used in southwestern Ohio. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 19:14:36 EST Subject: [PRR] Cabins in NK4, CK, SK1b --part1_16f.1a0d374c.2b6dbcec_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/31/03 7:58:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Schemes > From: > Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 19:50:36 EST > > > --part1_1a3.10108df1.2b6c73dc_boundary > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Jerry: > > The Pennsylvania Railroad Compendium on begining on page 106 has the cabin > car arrangement of letters drawings based upon those reproduced drawings: > > Shadow Keystone > ND, NDA, N6, N6B drawing date 1-5-56 > N5, N5A, N5B, N5C, N5D, N5E, N5F drawing stged 12-8-55 > N8 drawing 12-15-55 > > All the shadow keystone revised drawings are post 1954 freight car SK > > Plain Keystone are all dated 12-61 > > Rich Orr > True -- To be more specific, those post-1954 SK lettering arrangement schemes conform to the stencils of phase SK1b. Notice that the issue dates of the drawings reinforce the idea that there were NO SK1a cabin cars (or flats, or gons, or stock cars, etc.). Going back into the past, most of us are familiar with the 1948 CK variant that was standard on N8 cabins (and only on N8) -- that one used a Circle Keystone. There's enough evidence that around 1931 the PRR painted a few cabins in an experimental CK scheme using the circle keystone -- or else they painted the same car in each scheme sequentially. However, this/these schemes were withdrawn, and so PRR cabin cars continued to be lettered in 1926's NK4 scheme (no keystone) until the SK1b came along. There's more on this in my Summer 2002 Keystone article, and I hope to illustrate a cabin article on this someday. Jerry, as applied to your 1954 layout, the good/bad news is that you'll have no Shadow Keystone cabins at all. Further, the only cabins with CK showing will be the N8's. And your freight car fleet will be a sea of CK, with almost no SK1a or SK1b showing. I know you picked 1954 for good reason. But for freight cars and cabins, a 1955 or 1956 cutoff would add much more variety (both paint schemes and new freight cars). This is the kind of consideration that drives us era-modelers nuts... Best wishes, Rick Tipton Who's now waffling between summer 1966 and summer 1968 for the new Buckeye Division layout. You wouldn't believe how much difference 2 years made in the equipment used in southwestern Ohio. --part1_16f.1a0d374c.2b6dbcec_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/31/03 7:58:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Schemes
From: <SUVCWORR@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 19:50:36 EST


--part1_1a3.10108df1.2b6c73dc_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jerry:

The Pennsylvania Railroad Compendium on begining on page 106 has the cabin
car  arrangement of letters drawings based upon those reproduced drawings:

Shadow Keystone
ND, NDA, N6, N6B         drawing date 1-5-56
N5, N5A, N5B, N5C, N5D, N5E, N5F   drawing stged 12-8-55
N8   drawing 12-15-55

All the shadow keystone revised drawings are post 1954 freight car SK

Plain Keystone are all dated 12-61

Rich Orr



True --

To be more specific, those post-1954 SK lettering arrangement schemes conform to the stencils of phase SK1b.  Notice that the issue dates of the drawings reinforce the idea that there were NO SK1a cabin cars (or flats, or gons, or stock cars, etc.).

Going back into the past, most of us are familiar with the 1948 CK variant that was standard on N8 cabins (and only on N8) -- that one used a Circle Keystone.  There's enough evidence that around 1931 the PRR painted a few cabins in an experimental CK scheme using the circle keystone -- or else they painted the same car in each scheme sequentially.  However, this/these schemes were withdrawn, and so PRR cabin cars continued to be lettered in 1926's NK4 scheme (no keystone) until the SK1b came along.

There's more on this in my Summer 2002 Keystone article, and I hope to illustrate a cabin article on this someday.

Jerry, as applied to your 1954 layout, the good/bad news is that you'll have no Shadow Keystone cabins at all.   Further, the only cabins with CK showing will be the N8's.  And your freight car fleet will be a sea of CK, with almost no SK1a or SK1b showing.

I know you picked 1954 for good reason.  But for freight cars and cabins, a 1955 or 1956 cutoff would add much more variety (both paint schemes and new freight cars).  This is the kind of consideration that drives us era-modelers nuts...

Best wishes,

Rick Tipton
Who's now waffling between summer 1966 and summer 1968 for the new Buckeye Division layout.  You wouldn't believe how much difference 2 years made in the equipment used in southwestern Ohio.
 --part1_16f.1a0d374c.2b6dbcec_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Randy" Subject: [PRR] New Releases Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 19:18:33 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_046D_01C2CA26.B60A6DE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At the Big E show in Springfield, MA we have debuted our latest = releases. A PRR Standard Tool House and a Standard Scale House. They = are available in N, HO, S, O, & G Scale. Check our website for more = information. Dayna Warner CEO Trainstuff LLC www.trainstuffllc.com ------=_NextPart_000_046D_01C2CA26.B60A6DE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

At the Big E show in Springfield, = MA we=20 have debuted our latest releases.  A PRR Standard Tool House and a = Standard=20 Scale House.  They are available in N, HO, S, O, & G = Scale.  Check=20 our website for more information.
 
 
Dayna Warner CEO
Trainstuff = LLC
www.trainstuffllc.com ------=_NextPart_000_046D_01C2CA26.B60A6DE0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RobertR453@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 21:49:15 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Museum --part1_176.15acd576.2b6de12b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I like the position of the Musuem in town but if the track was available the Sam Rea shops sure would make a nice musuem. If the track was available too they could run excursion too? Has any researched/mentioned this? --part1_176.15acd576.2b6de12b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   I like the position of the Musuem in town but if the track was available the Sam Rea shops sure would make a nice musuem.  If the track was available too they could run excursion too?  Has any researched/mentioned this? --part1_176.15acd576.2b6de12b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 20:51:50 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Battery Car Trucks On Sat, 1 Feb 2003 Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 2/1/03 3:06:17 PM Central Standard Time, RDG2124@aol.com > writes: > > << Is this a > Pennsy design and if so what was the PRR designator? Is this truck or leaf > springs available in HO scale? >> > > Pennsy design. I have a vague recollection Sunshine Models made this truck > in a metal casting kit. Can anyone else confirm? Bowser makes these trucks in HO. Part #74190 Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 21:02:09 -0800 From: smartcommco@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] A point of clarification. It has been brought to my attention off-line that I may have caused undo and unfair embarrassment to the interim Board of the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. Hopefully this will set the record straight. I was asked by my client to determine the "creative control" issue BEFORE revealing their underwriting offer. Since the issue of " creative control" was not approved by the Museum, the funding offer was not presented. At no time did the Museum turn down a corporate funding offer over the issue of "creative control". If my comments caused anyone on this list to come to that conclusion, I am deeply regretful. Harry Webber ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 23:15:43 -0500 From: "Richard Poole" Subject: [PRR] N-5b CABOOSE NUMBERS - HELP!! Gentlemen, I have two requests involving the N-5b cabooses: (1) KENNY KING bought a N-5? from CONRAIL and has it on a piece of track in his yard in LATROBE, PA. It has a CR number on it . . . CR 46152. He is building a 1.6 scale model of this caboose and would like to number his model the PRR number of the CR 46152. Can anyone, please cross-reference this CR number and give me the PRR number for this caboose and the class? I have to get the lettering before FEBRUARY 7th, so I need this information ASAP! If you have any history connected with this caboose, he would like to have it too! (2) I am building a 1.6 scale model of a N-5b caboose. I plan to letter it with the full PENNSYLVANIA on the side with the "Shadow" keystone. I would like to number it for a caboose that was assigned between ENOLA and ALTOONA or CONWAY. Can you come up with a good PRR number? Please be sure it is a N-5b! THANK YOU VERY MUCH. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] P-54 Coaches, X42 express boxes Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 00:21:24 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00E3_01C2CA51.05087FC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ron Di Orio asked: Express Box X42 (Car nos. 2540-2549). Anyone know where I can find = plans or at least major dimensions? Have a couple of photographs, = that's not the problem. See the October 1999 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman for drawings by = Chuck Yungkurth. By the way, you can search for magazine articles at = http://index.mrmag.com by keyword or author. Ben Hom ------=_NextPart_000_00E3_01C2CA51.05087FC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ron Di Orio asked:
Express Box X42 (Car nos. 2540-2549).  Anyone know where I can = find=20 plans or at least major dimensions?  Have a couple of photographs, = that's=20 not the problem.
 
See the October 1999 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman for drawings = by=20 Chuck Yungkurth.
 
By the way, you can search for magazine articles at http://index.mrmag.com by keyword or = author.
 
 
Ben Hom
------=_NextPart_000_00E3_01C2CA51.05087FC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 00:47:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] N-5b CABOOSE NUMBERS - HELP!! Answers to Part 2: Here are some numbers of N5b cabin cars assigned between Enola,Altoona and Conway: 477683: Alto-Enola Crew 222/Pitts. Div 477640: Enola- Alto Crew 132/Pitts Div. (TrainPhone Eqiup.) 477717: Conway-Altoona Crew/Pitts Div. 477718: Conway-Altoona Pool/Pitts Div. (cabin car equip. for Pass. Service) info from "System Cabin Car Assignments" May 1957. Hope this helps. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ThreeButchers@cs.com Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 06:43:29 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Battery Car coil-eliptic trucks In a message dated 2/2/03 6:12:27 AM !!!First Boot!!!, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: << Noticed in the scanned photo that the truck design used on this car has both coil and leaf springs. Is this a Pennsy design and if so what was the PRR designator? >> Typically, these trucks were 2D-F18 or 2D-F19. The official PRR tracings indicate different contours to the two sideframes Brian Butcher PRRT&HS #5540 PRR 30s-50s 1/160th scale http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR-n_scale/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 04:54:48 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] I1s/I1sa flanged drivers Hello list, With all of the talk about I1s/I1sa flanged drivers, I leafed through my Keystone reprints. Volume 7, Number 1 (March 1974) says on page 9 that I1s/I1sa engines began receiving flanged second and fourth driver sets starting in 1938. Center driver remained unflanged (blind). With a large fleet of engines (over 4000 during most of the 1940s), it probably took quite some time to convert the entire fleet of I1s/I1sa engines. The article lists the drivers (1st through 5th axles) as Flanged 7.5" plain 8.5" plain 7.5" plain flanged After 1938, listing shows all drivers flanged, except the center driver, which was 7" plain. One other tidbit from the same issue. Until 1934, all Pacifics had unflanged center drivers. After 1934, they began to receive flanged center drivers. Doug __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 09:41:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] P-54 Coaches, X42 express boxes 1. P-54 coaches. Were these used in suburban service anywhere in the Pittsburgh area, either before or after the electrification of the Main Line to Paoli? For that matter, were the coaches used as non electrified coaches anywhere other than in the Philadelphia-New York metro area? 2. Express Box X42 (Car nos. 2540-2549). Anyone know where I can find plans or at least major dimensions? Have a a couple of photographs, that's not the problem. Thanks. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 00:21:24 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] P-54 Coaches, X42 express boxes Ron Di Orio asked: Express Box X42 (Car nos. 2540-2549). Anyone know where I can find plans or at least major dimensions? Have a couple of photographs, that's not the problem. See the October 1999 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman for drawings by Chuck Yungkurth. By the way, you can search for magazine articles at http://index.mrmag.com by keyword or author. Ben Hom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 08:46:17 EST Subject: [PRR] What Pass. Train --part1_65.8c03784.2b6e7b29_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List, In the 60's, 64 to 68, I would catch a w/b passenger train at Lancaster, Pa. along about 11 - 11:30 at night and this train would be passed Pittsburg and well into Ohio by dawns first light. What train, number and name, would this have been? Evan Leisey --part1_65.8c03784.2b6e7b29_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List,

   In the 60's, 64 to 68,  I would catch a w/b passenger train at Lancaster, Pa. along about 11 - 11:30 at night and this train would be passed Pittsburg and well into Ohio by dawns first light.   What train, number and name, would this have been?

Evan Leisey --part1_65.8c03784.2b6e7b29_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 08:52:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] PRR G39 Jennies from Stewart Hobbies (HO) List....... I just want to pass on some info I just got. PRR G39 ore jennies will be released with both style trucks real soon. Don't know all the details but I understand that the jennies will be released in packs of four, maybe more. Maybe someone else can chime in with more info. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] Observation Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 09:26:42 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C2CA9D.3231DCC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just turned my calendar for the Pennsylvania RR and there is Three = GG-1's with the air intake screens low on the body of the Locomotive. Is my 72 year old memory failing me wasn't this problem corrected after = the Storm we had in the 1950's late where the blowing snow clogged these = intakes? I thought they were moved to the top cowling of the Locomotive near the = Pantagraphs. Could the Calendar Co. made a mistake in the date under the = picture caption?? Lee Burbage ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C2CA9D.3231DCC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I just turned my calendar for the Pennsylvania RR and there is = Three GG-1's=20 with the air intake screens low on the body of the Locomotive.
 
Is my 72 year old memory failing me  wasn't this problem = corrected=20 after the Storm we had in the 1950's late where the blowing snow clogged = these=20 intakes?
 
I thought they were moved to the top cowling of the Locomotive near = the=20 Pantagraphs. Could the Calendar Co. made a mistake in the date under the = picture=20 caption??
 
Lee Burbage
------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C2CA9D.3231DCC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 09:33:25 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Looking for Paul Martineau Paul, if you are on this list, would you drop me a line, please? Anyone else, if you hve a current email address for Paul, please let me know. Thanks, Steve Bartlett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 09:55:51 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] What Pass. Train --part1_163.1b1af000.2b6e8b77_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/2/2003 8:54:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, RDG2124@aol.com writes: > In the 60's, 64 to 68, I would catch a w/b passenger train at Lancaster, > Pa. along about 11 - 11:30 at night and this train would be passed > Pittsburg and well into Ohio by dawns first light. What train, number and > name, would this have been? > My 1968 Official Guide (after the merger) shows Train 615 stopping at Lancaster at 11:01 pm en route to an 11:34 pm arrival in Harrisburg. However no connecting service into Ohio is shown. For trains running through into Ohio, Train 3, the "Penn Texas", stopped at Lancaster at 9:38 pm but was in Indiana by 5 am, en route to St. Louis. Train 49, the "Broadway Limited", stopped at Lancaster at 7:50 pm and exited Ohio just after 6 am en route to Chicago. Lee Rainey --part1_163.1b1af000.2b6e8b77_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/2/2003 8:54:05 AM Eastern Standar= d Time, RDG2124@aol.com writes:


In the 60's, 64 to 68,  I=20= would catch a w/b passenger train at Lancaster, Pa. along about 11 - 11:30 a= t night and this train would be passed Pittsburg and well into Ohio by dawns= first light.   What train, number and name, would this have been?=


My 1968 Official Guide (after the merger) shows Train 615 stopping at Lancas= ter at 11:01 pm en route to an 11:34 pm arrival in Harrisburg. However no co= nnecting service into Ohio is shown.

For trains running through into Ohio, Train 3, the "Penn Texas", stopped at=20= Lancaster at 9:38 pm but was in Indiana by 5 am, en route to St. Louis. = ; Train 49, the "Broadway Limited", stopped at Lancaster at 7:50 pm and exit= ed Ohio just after 6 am en route to Chicago.

Lee Rainey --part1_163.1b1af000.2b6e8b77_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 10:16:12 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] What Pass. Train Evan, In 1964, train #3, the Penn Texas, made a westbound stop at 11:38 PM. The closest Chicago trains were the General at 7:45 pm and the Pennsylvania Ltd at 2:05AM. Looks like #3. Would that train's route take you to where you were going? Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 12:30:27 -0500 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] Battery Car Trucks --------------CFA011EE8B313542029DB350 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > First, thanks to all for the informative responses to the battery > car brake details and assignment questions. > > One last question on the battery car. Noticed in the scanned photo > that the truck design used on this car has both coil and leaf springs. > Is this a Pennsy design and if so what was the PRR designator? Is > this truck or leaf springs available in HO scale? Walthers had made > caboose trucks leaf springs about a decade ago but they are long gone. > > Oops, that's three questions. > > Many thanks, > > Evan Leisey > Evan- These are some of the coil-elliptical trucks PRR used. There are others. If you want the whole list, let me know off line. Regards, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO 2D-F3 ASF Andrews- Cast/USRA 5'6"w/ coil-elliptic spg-U sect-Dble.truss-sngl brake-spread/spr plank-FB-50 ton - Accurail #103 2D-F3 ASF Andrews- Cast/USRA 5'6"w/ coil-elliptic spg-U sect-Dble.truss-sngl brake-spread/spr plank-FB-50 ton- Bowser #74190 2D-F4a ARA Type W Bett-Cast 5'6"-coil/ellip spg-sngl brake-spread/spr plank-Bolted jrnls-FB-33"pl wh.-Scale width- #Accurail 100 2D-F12 AAR PRR Type 5'6"w/ single coil/elliptical springs-sngl brake-spread/spr plank-FB-50 ton-1930's Sunshine Models TM6 2D-F12 AAR PRR Type 5'6"w/ coil/elliptic springs-sngl brake-spread/spr plank-FB-50 ton Bowser 74190 2D-F12 AAR PRR Type 5'6"w/ coil/elliptic springs-sngl brake-spread/spr plank-FB-50 ton Rail Classics ?? 2D-F12a AAR Cast Steel 5'6"w/ coil/elliptic spr.-Self aligned-Plankless-FB-50 Ton-33" Ribbed wh. LifeLike 21251 2D-F12a AAR Cast Steel 5'6"w/ coil/elliptic spr.-Self aligned-Plankless-FB-50 Ton-33" Flat wh. LifeLike 21253 2D-F12a AAR Cast Steel 5'6"w/ coil/elliptic spr.-Self aligned-Plankless-FB-50 Ton Tichy 3049 2D-F12a AAR Cast Steel 5'6"w/ coil/ellip spr.-Self aligned-Plankless-Sprung-FB-50 Ton-33" Plas wh. Walthers 1001 2D-F12a AAR Cast Steel 5'6"coil/ellip spr-Self aligned-Plankless-FB-50 Ton-Unsprung-33" Metal wh. Walthers 1008 2D-F12a AAR Cast Steel 5'6"coil/ellip spr.-Self aligned-Plankless-FB-50 Ton-Unsprung-33" Plas wh. Walthers 1012 2D-F12a AAR Cast Steel 5'6"coil/ellip spr.-Self aligned-Plankless-FB-50 Ton-Unsprung-33" Brass wh. Intermountain 40060 2D-F12a AAR Cast Steel 5'6"w/ coil/ellip spr.-Self aligned-Plankless-FB-50 Ton-33" Plas wh. Red Caboose 5004 --------------CFA011EE8B313542029DB350 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  

RDG2124@aol.com wrote:

  First, thanks to all for the informative responses to the battery car brake details and assignment questions.

  One last question on the battery car.  Noticed in the scanned photo that the truck design used on this car has both coil and leaf springs. Is this a Pennsy design and if so what was the PRR designator?  Is this truck or leaf springs available in HO scale?  Walthers had made caboose trucks leaf springs about a decade ago but they are long gone.

  Oops, that's three questions.

  Many thanks,

  Evan Leisey
 

Evan-

These are some of the coil-elliptical trucks PRR used. There are others. If you want the whole list,
let me know off line.

Regards,

Eddie
Dr. Edmond L. Freed
PRRT&HS # 156
Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO

2D-F3  ASF Andrews-   Cast/USRA 5'6"w/ coil-elliptic spg-U sect-Dble.truss-sngl brake-spread/spr plank-FB-50 ton -    Accurail #103

2D-F3  ASF Andrews-   Cast/USRA 5'6"w/ coil-elliptic spg-U sect-Dble.truss-sngl brake-spread/spr plank-FB-50 ton-   Bowser #74190

2D-F4a   ARA Type W Bett-Cast 5'6"-coil/ellip spg-sngl brake-spread/spr plank-Bolted jrnls-FB-33"pl wh.-Scale width- #Accurail 100

2D-F12     AAR PRR Type 5'6"w/ single coil/elliptical springs-sngl brake-spread/spr plank-FB-50 ton-1930's   Sunshine Models TM6

2D-F12     AAR PRR Type 5'6"w/ coil/elliptic springs-sngl brake-spread/spr plank-FB-50 ton Bowser 74190

2D-F12     AAR PRR Type 5'6"w/ coil/elliptic springs-sngl brake-spread/spr plank-FB-50 ton   Rail Classics ??

2D-F12a   AAR Cast Steel 5'6"w/ coil/elliptic spr.-Self aligned-Plankless-FB-50 Ton-33" Ribbed wh. LifeLike 21251

2D-F12a   AAR Cast Steel 5'6"w/ coil/elliptic spr.-Self aligned-Plankless-FB-50 Ton-33" Flat wh. LifeLike 21253 

2D-F12a   AAR Cast Steel 5'6"w/ coil/elliptic spr.-Self aligned-Plankless-FB-50 Ton Tichy 3049

2D-F12a   AAR Cast Steel 5'6"w/ coil/ellip spr.-Self aligned-Plankless-Sprung-FB-50 Ton-33" Plas wh. Walthers 1001

2D-F12a   AAR Cast Steel 5'6"coil/ellip spr-Self aligned-Plankless-FB-50 Ton-Unsprung-33" Metal wh. Walthers 1008

2D-F12a   AAR Cast Steel 5'6"coil/ellip spr.-Self aligned-Plankless-FB-50 Ton-Unsprung-33" Plas wh. Walthers 1012

2D-F12a   AAR Cast Steel 5'6"coil/ellip spr.-Self aligned-Plankless-FB-50 Ton-Unsprung-33" Brass wh. Intermountain 40060

2D-F12a   AAR Cast Steel 5'6"w/ coil/ellip spr.-Self aligned-Plankless-FB-50 Ton-33" Plas wh. Red Caboose 5004
  --------------CFA011EE8B313542029DB350-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FredAbend@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 12:46:48 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Observation Lee and the List, While the railroad modified many of the GG1s, most probably did not get it. I base this on my observations in the PC/Conrail days where Dick Pfeiffer and I each tabulated which had the modifications on the GG1s still running. Fred Abendschein ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 12:50:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] B6sb Update List, Work on the B6sb progressed well this week with the Tender being my main focus. The final look of the Tender captured what I was after. I posted more photos on the website if you care to check: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/B6sb.html .......Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 13:58:40 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/31/03 From: "Stephen H. Prosser" Dear Listers, Just a bit of trivia for you Railfesters. As you know, the PRR Testing plant along 17th St. was torn down some time ago. My Uncle Don Croyle worked in the plant and rescued a number of important things such as boxes of glass negatives of very old steam builders shots. The demolition crew, knowing that a parking lot would be close by (the Station Mall), they simply dumped a lot of PRR stuff into the hole along with fill and covered it with blacktop. Some day, when the Station Mall has lost its charm ;) RR archaeologists will find many interesting artifacts. So, next time you're tailgating at RF, just imagine what you're standing on top of!!! Steve -- Steve Prosser sprosser@attbi.com -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 14:28:23 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Dream Excursion From: "Stephen H. Prosser" Howse about this for a dream excursion for 1361? >From the RR museum down the old Hollidaysburg Branch to the Wye switches and then (here comes the dream part) around Duncansville to Foot of Ten (so called because it was the foot of the tenth plane of the Portage RR) up along old Rt. 22 to the Muleshoe Curve up to the mountain crest with a turn around before you hit Rt. 22 near Tunnel Hill . . . OK I said it was a dream, but what a dream. I walk the Muleshoe every Spring to watch birds and the roadbed is still beautifully crested and you can kick up a spike and other metal parts without much trouble. This is now State Game lands and the area, one can imagine, is just as beautiful as when Dickens took the trip on the Portage RR in the mid-1800s. Still dreaming! -- Steve Prosser sprosser@attbi.com -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 19:02:19 EST Subject: [PRR] Ore traffic questions The announcement of the G39 from Stewart raises a few questions. I have also seen leased DM&IR jennies on the Pennsy. Were they ever run mixed with G38s and G39s? What year were they leased? Second, would there be a reasonable expectation in 1961 that a shark lashup could pull the Pennsy cars? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR G39 Jennies from Stewart Hobbies (HO) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 12:51:08 -0500 Stewart had samples at the Springfield train show yesterday... They were complete except for the ladders and some other detail parts. They looked real nice, and are heavy! The body of the car is cast metal. The ladders are separate but the grabs are cast on. They're doing G39's (Crown Trucks) and G39b's (bettendorf trucks) Three four packs of each type in PRR along with a single decorated car of each type for 26 decorated cars total! Supposedly they'll be out in March... The flyer just has TBA for the price.... Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of zootowerprr@webtv.net Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 8:52 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR G39 Jennies from Stewart Hobbies (HO) List....... I just want to pass on some info I just got. PRR G39 ore jennies will be released with both style trucks real soon. Don't know all the details but I understand that the jennies will be released in packs of four, maybe more. Maybe someone else can chime in with more info. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 19:59:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore traffic questions Bob, I have seen photos of Sharks pulling jennies around the Cleveland area (Whiskey Island) in early 1960s. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 18:11:33 EST Subject: [PRR] Terminating Cincinnati passenger trains --part1_11.8e0d958.2b6effa5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/2/03 10:57:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 15:27:34 EST > From: RGAST2@aol.com > Subject: Cincinnati Question > > Since CUT opened, didn't all Pennsy passenger trains into Cincinnati use > the > Norwood connection, thence the B&O down through Ivorydale Junction to CUT? True - PRR trains from Columbus and from Richmond (and N&W trains from Portsmouth) used OAKLEY to reach the Norwood connection, entering the B&O at the east end of EAST NORWOOD interlocking. > > A friend and I got to wondering this week if PRR didn't have a way to get > from Undercliff into the south end of CUT. I said I didn't think they had > a > direct way, but still could saw through if they ever had to. Does anyone > know for sure? Did PRR passenger trains ever have to run via Undercliff, > either regularly or as a detour? > > Jeff > Jeff, Chad, et al, Before CUT opened, there's evidence that drafts of sleepers (and maybe headend equipment) were shuttled among the 5 or 7 or whatever predecessor passenger stations. Some MAY have been via the PRR's Cincinnati Street Connecting Railway you refer to, although this is a lot of street running. If you'd ever watched PRR freight transfers or DT&I DC-7/DC-6 crawling in Front Street across the waterfront at Cincinnati (west of Undercliff, OASIS, and the site of former PRR Pearl Street Station), dodging autos and trucks and lots of industry switches, you would understand why CSCRy would be a very undesirable route for passenger trains. There were many interconnectons along Cincinnati's west waterfront to B&O, Southern, Big Four, and C&O. However, like you I'm not aware of any that would lead a movement off the CSCRy to CUT without any backing. Backing from Storrs Yard on the B&O onto the CUT southwest connector, or backing up off the NYC ditch track at Wood Street onto the C&O bridge to reach the southeast connector would make this evolution even more unattractive. In fact, the Wood Street maneuver would be something like switchbacking the Cincinnati Limited across Rollins Pass (the "Giant's Ladder" was of course replaced by Moffatt Tunnel). I'm not saying they NEVER did this (although I've never heard of it before, and no author I know gives this theory a whirl). I'm just saying it would be a lot worse than, say, detouring via Dayton down the New York Central to Ivorydale Junction, or detouring via B&O's Toledo Division/CH&D from Hamilton. Those are emergency diversions that make good operating sense. BTW -- forgive all the unexplained locations and jargon folks. I'm currently trying to write an article on the PRR in Cincinnati for the Keystone. Hopefully, some of this will make more sense when developed in the article. If you can't wait, consult Carl Condit's The Railroad and the City for more detail than you ever dreamed of. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_11.8e0d958.2b6effa5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/2/03 10:57:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 2
   Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 15:27:34 EST
   From: RGAST2@aol.com
Subject: Cincinnati Question

Since CUT opened, didn't all Pennsy passenger trains into Cincinnati use the
Norwood connection, thence the B&O down through Ivorydale Junction to CUT?


True - PRR trains from Columbus and from Richmond (and N&W trains from Portsmouth) used OAKLEY to reach the Norwood connection, entering the B&O at the east end of EAST NORWOOD interlocking.


A friend and I got to wondering this week if PRR didn't have a way to get
from  Undercliff into the south end of CUT.  I said I didn't think they had a
direct way, but still could saw through if they ever had to.  Does anyone
know for sure?  Did PRR passenger trains ever have to run via Undercliff,
either regularly or as a detour?

Jeff  


Jeff, Chad, et al,

Before CUT opened, there's evidence that drafts of sleepers (and maybe headend equipment) were shuttled among the 5 or 7 or whatever predecessor passenger stations.  Some MAY have been via the PRR's Cincinnati Street Connecting Railway you refer to, although this is a lot of street running.

If you'd ever watched PRR freight transfers or DT&I DC-7/DC-6 crawling in Front Street across the waterfront at Cincinnati (west of Undercliff, OASIS, and the site of former PRR Pearl Street Station), dodging autos and trucks and lots of industry switches, you would understand why CSCRy would be a very undesirable route for passenger trains.  

There were many interconnectons along Cincinnati's west waterfront to B&O, Southern, Big Four, and C&O.  However, like you I'm not aware of any that would lead a movement off the CSCRy to CUT without any backing.  Backing from Storrs Yard on the B&O onto the CUT southwest connector, or backing up off the NYC ditch track at Wood Street onto the C&O bridge to reach the southeast connector would make this evolution even more unattractive.  In fact, the Wood Street maneuver would be something like switchbacking the Cincinnati Limited across Rollins Pass (the "Giant's Ladder" was of course replaced by Moffatt Tunnel).

I'm not saying they NEVER did this (although I've never heard of it before, and no author I know gives this theory a whirl).  I'm just saying it would be a lot worse than, say, detouring via Dayton down the New York Central to Ivorydale Junction, or detouring via B&O's Toledo Division/CH&D from Hamilton.  Those are emergency diversions that make good operating sense.

BTW -- forgive all the unexplained locations and jargon folks.  I'm currently trying to write an article on the PRR in Cincinnati for the Keystone.  Hopefully, some of this will make more sense when developed in the article.

If you can't wait, consult Carl Condit's The Railroad and the City for more detail than you ever dreamed of.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_11.8e0d958.2b6effa5_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 19:07:38 -0600 From: Chuck Bowman Subject: [PRR] Coil-Leaf Trucks Re Evan Leisey's question concerning coil-leaf trucks. This is style 2D-F12. Sunshine did in fact make this truck. Its fresh in my mind because I just finished an X-26C boxcar by Sunshine. The kit included these trucks. I haven't a clue whether they are still available -- I've had the kit on the shelf for about five years. Now that its finished, its a great looking boxcar!! Sunshine's directions report that the V-9306 sideframe was made by Pennsy, and used on the 2D-F8, F12, and F19 trucks. The idea of the coil-leaf design was to reduce harmonic oscillation. However, after WWII, the leaf springs slowly gave way to twin coil springs. This made the 2D-F12 look identical to the 2D-F8 (which is available from Kadee). chuck Charles H. Bowman Phone 979-690-7095 Lah Lah Farm Fax 979-690-8069 13350 Hopes Creek Road Cell 979-587-1386 College Station TX 77845-9250 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 21:02:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Battery Car Trucks --part1_1c4.46c4fac.2b6f27c5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All: Bowser makes these trucks part number 74190 $2.75 a pair. If I recall correctly Tichy also makes a version. I think the Tichy nad Bowser differ in the orientation of the coil and leaf springs. Rich Orr --part1_1c4.46c4fac.2b6f27c5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All:

Bowser makes these trucks part number 74190  $2.75 a pair.  If I recall correctly Tichy also makes a version.  I think the Tichy nad Bowser differ in the orientation of the coil and leaf springs.

Rich Orr --part1_1c4.46c4fac.2b6f27c5_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] N-5b CABOOSE NUMBERS - HELP!! Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 23:22:33 -0500 Richard, You already have an answer to part (2), so here is part (1): The former PRR number and class for CR 46152 are 477117, class N5. An outline of the history of the car follows. The Class N5 cabin car was built in Altoona on 2-1-1917, given number 487118, and assigned to the Northern Grand Division. It was renumbered to 477117 on 5-14-1920 at Venango. It was shopped at Olean on 3-2-1923. On 1-7-1926 it had an air brake pressure gauge installed at Renovo. The equipment boxes were removed on 2-27-1926 at Renovo. Two Sherburne alarm whistles and emergency brake valves were installed on 3-16-1926 at Renovo. On 10-15-1926 the "old style" couplers were replaced by ARA Type D couplers at Renovo. The cast iron wheels on axles 1 and 2 were replaced by one-wear wrought steel wheels at Renovo on 7-10-1931. Those on axles 3 and 4 were replaced on 10-3-1931 at Buffalo. Brake beam safety supports were added on 2-27-1936 at Pitcairn. On 4-10-1943 at Erie Car Shops the 2A-F1 archbar trucks were replaced by 2A-F3 trucks and the wheels were replaced by new one-wear wrought steel wheels. The KD 1012 air brake system was replaced by AB brakes on 4-29-1943 at Erie Car Shops. The Type D couplers were replaced by Type E couplers on 10-25-1943 at Erie. On 4-27-1950 at Altoona Car Shops the vertical staff hand brakes were replaced by Equipco power hand brakes. Collision posts were added. New Type E couplers were applied with Edgewater draft gear. The end hand rails were raised to 48". An air brake release mechanism was installed. The composition flooring was replaced by maple flooring. And, the single flat wick oil lamp was replaced by two round wick oil lamps. In the 5-15-1957 System Cabin Car Assignments list, N5 477117 is assigned to the Northern Region, Warren Ridgeway RW-2. The 5-3-1974 Penn Central Caboose Directory shows that PC 19330 was former PRR 477117. By this time it had 2A-F5 trucks, a 12 volt electrical system, screened cupola windows, screen doors, oil heat and a toilet. It was in yard only service and had last been shopped on 8-23-1971. The 6-6-1981 Conrail Caboose Directory shows that CR 46152 was former PC 19330 and was listed as work equipment. If anyone can add further details to this car's history, I would be pleased to hear about it. Bob Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Poole" > Gentlemen, > > I have two requests involving the N-5b cabooses: > > (1) KENNY KING bought a N-5? from CONRAIL and has it on a piece of track in his yard in LATROBE, PA. It has a CR number on it . . . CR 46152. He is building a 1.6 scale model of this caboose and would like to number his model the PRR number of the CR 46152. Can anyone, please cross-reference this CR number and give me the PRR number for this caboose and the class? I have to get the lettering before FEBRUARY 7th, so I need this information ASAP! If you have any history connected with this caboose, he would like to have it too! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] N-5b CABOOSE NUMBERS - HELP!! Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 08:08:14 -0500 That cabin car is sort of like Caesar's Axe. Its on its third handle and fourth head!!!!! -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Johnson Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 11:23 PM To: dpoole17@PAnetwork.com; PRR TALK Subject: Re: [PRR] N-5b CABOOSE NUMBERS - HELP!! Richard, You already have an answer to part (2), so here is part (1): The former PRR number and class for CR 46152 are 477117, class N5. An outline of the history of the car follows. The Class N5 cabin car was built in Altoona on 2-1-1917, given number 487118, and assigned to the Northern Grand Division. It was renumbered to 477117 on 5-14-1920 at Venango. It was shopped at Olean on 3-2-1923. On 1-7-1926 it had an air brake pressure gauge installed at Renovo. The equipment boxes were removed on 2-27-1926 at Renovo. Two Sherburne alarm whistles and emergency brake valves were installed on 3-16-1926 at Renovo. On 10-15-1926 the "old style" couplers were replaced by ARA Type D couplers at Renovo. The cast iron wheels on axles 1 and 2 were replaced by one-wear wrought steel wheels at Renovo on 7-10-1931. Those on axles 3 and 4 were replaced on 10-3-1931 at Buffalo. Brake beam safety supports were added on 2-27-1936 at Pitcairn. On 4-10-1943 at Erie Car Shops the 2A-F1 archbar trucks were replaced by 2A-F3 trucks and the wheels were replaced by new one-wear wrought steel wheels. The KD 1012 air brake system was replaced by AB brakes on 4-29-1943 at Erie Car Shops. The Type D couplers were replaced by Type E couplers on 10-25-1943 at Erie. On 4-27-1950 at Altoona Car Shops the vertical staff hand brakes were replaced by Equipco power hand brakes. Collision posts were added. New Type E couplers were applied with Edgewater draft gear. The end hand rails were raised to 48". An air brake release mechanism was installed. The composition flooring was replaced by maple flooring. And, the single flat wick oil lamp was replaced by two round wick oil lamps. In the 5-15-1957 System Cabin Car Assignments list, N5 477117 is assigned to the Northern Region, Warren Ridgeway RW-2. The 5-3-1974 Penn Central Caboose Directory shows that PC 19330 was former PRR 477117. By this time it had 2A-F5 trucks, a 12 volt electrical system, screened cupola windows, screen doors, oil heat and a toilet. It was in yard only service and had last been shopped on 8-23-1971. The 6-6-1981 Conrail Caboose Directory shows that CR 46152 was former PC 19330 and was listed as work equipment. If anyone can add further details to this car's history, I would be pleased to hear about it. Bob Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Poole" > Gentlemen, > > I have two requests involving the N-5b cabooses: > > (1) KENNY KING bought a N-5? from CONRAIL and has it on a piece > of track in his yard in LATROBE, PA. It has a CR number on it . . . CR 46152. He is building a 1.6 scale model of this caboose and would like to number his model the PRR number of the CR 46152. Can anyone, please cross-reference this CR number and give me the PRR number for this caboose and the class? I have to get the lettering before FEBRUARY 7th, so I need this information ASAP! If you have any history connected with this caboose, he would like to have it too! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Ore traffic questions Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 08:13:14 -0500 Bobspf wrote: >>>>Second, would there be a reasonable expectation in 1961 that a shark lashup could pull the Pennsy cars? Bill Replies: I would say they (the changes) were pretty good, since almost the entire fleet was still operable, minus the three (ABA set)that were stored at 12th St. Shop in Altoona awaiting rebuild at Schnectady to Alco prime movers. I think 1961 was the year that the work was done because they scrapped the idea and bought the DL640s in 1962. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bobspf@aol.com Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 7:02 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Ore traffic questions The announcement of the G39 from Stewart raises a few questions. I have also seen leased DM&IR jennies on the Pennsy. Were they ever run mixed with G38s and G39s? What year were they leased? Second, would there be a reasonable expectation in 1961 that a shark lashup could pull the Pennsy cars? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 08:03:24 -0600 From: Frederick Ripley Subject: [PRR] PRR ore traffic to Toledo The discussion of PRR ore jennies reminds me of an article about the PRR's ore traffic in "Trains" around 1960. Included was a map of the routes of showed of regular ore traffic. The route furthest west on the system was from Toledo to the east. Does anyone remember these trains? (Toledo-Carrothers-Bucyrus, then east on the Ft. Wayne main line). I am curious if they used ore jennies, or regular hoppers as some PRR ore trains seemed to. Thanks, Fred R. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 10:20:58 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Coil-Leaf Trucks The 2D-F12 is also available from Bowser. They put them under their X31s. They also sell just the sideframes so you could put Reboxx wheels in them. I've done this for many of my X29s. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Chuck Bowman wrote: > Re Evan Leisey's question concerning coil-leaf trucks. This is style > 2D-F12. Sunshine did in fact make this truck. Its fresh in my mind > because I just finished an X-26C boxcar by Sunshine. The kit included > these trucks. I haven't a clue whether they are still available -- I've > had the kit on the shelf for about five years. Now that its finished, its > a great looking boxcar!! > > Sunshine's directions report that the V-9306 sideframe was made by Pennsy, > and used on the 2D-F8, F12, and F19 trucks. The idea of the coil-leaf > design was to reduce harmonic oscillation. However, after WWII, the leaf > springs slowly gave way to twin coil springs. This made the 2D-F12 look > identical to the 2D-F8 (which is available from Kadee). > > chuck > > Charles H. Bowman Phone 979-690-7095 > Lah Lah Farm Fax 979-690-8069 > 13350 Hopes Creek Road Cell 979-587-1386 > College Station TX 77845-9250 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Amherst Show Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 12:52:49 -0500 Listers, I was already beaten to the punch about the G39's at the Amherst show, but no one has mentioned the DCC uncouplers coming from Tony's Train Exchange. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Cabins in NK4, CK, SK1b Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:09:24 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CBAF.623570E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi all; I think you may be being too hard on yourselves. The truth is, that you can probably develop sessions for different years with not much difficulty. Granted, you may have repack dates on your cars that won't match up with earlier or later dates, but who can tell anyway on a moving train! You will, in all likelihood, be the only person who would notice! You can swap out cars, engines, automobiles, billboards, and other details, to change your era convincingly, at least within a five years period or so. I went through this all a number of years ago. My solution was to figure out exactly what I needed to change out to make the switch from year to year. It gives me the option of changing the year, year-by-year, to allow me to phase out early freight cars and diesels, and introduce new ones in their stead. I can change a couple billboards, change a few autos on the layout, take a few H21s, GSs, X29s off, and add a couple G41s and later boxcars, and voila! No, I can't model 1957 or 1967, as those safety ladders and Trainphones can't come off, but who says that you have to have all your equipment on the layout all the time, anyway! Best of the day, Elden P.S. And Rick, I can't believe you wouldn't want to have at least one session with the Lima Transfers running around! -----Original Message----- From: RickTipton@aol.com [mailto:RickTipton@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 4:15 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PRR-Modeling@egroups.com; PRR@egroups.com Subject: [PRR] Cabins in NK4, CK, SK1b In a message dated 1/31/03 7:58:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Schemes From: Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 19:50:36 EST --part1_1a3.10108df1.2b6c73dc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry: The Pennsylvania Railroad Compendium on begining on page 106 has the cabin car arrangement of letters drawings based upon those reproduced drawings: Shadow Keystone ND, NDA, N6, N6B drawing date 1-5-56 N5, N5A, N5B, N5C, N5D, N5E, N5F drawing stged 12-8-55 N8 drawing 12-15-55 All the shadow keystone revised drawings are post 1954 freight car SK Plain Keystone are all dated 12-61 Rich Orr True -- To be more specific, those post-1954 SK lettering arrangement schemes conform to the stencils of phase SK1b. Notice that the issue dates of the drawings reinforce the idea that there were NO SK1a cabin cars (or flats, or gons, or stock cars, etc.). Going back into the past, most of us are familiar with the 1948 CK variant that was standard on N8 cabins (and only on N8) -- that one used a Circle Keystone. There's enough evidence that around 1931 the PRR painted a few cabins in an experimental CK scheme using the circle keystone -- or else they painted the same car in each scheme sequentially. However, this/these schemes were withdrawn, and so PRR cabin cars continued to be lettered in 1926's NK4 scheme (no keystone) until the SK1b came along. There's more on this in my Summer 2002 Keystone article, and I hope to illustrate a cabin article on this someday. Jerry, as applied to your 1954 layout, the good/bad news is that you'll have no Shadow Keystone cabins at all. Further, the only cabins with CK showing will be the N8's. And your freight car fleet will be a sea of CK, with almost no SK1a or SK1b showing. I know you picked 1954 for good reason. But for freight cars and cabins, a 1955 or 1956 cutoff would add much more variety (both paint schemes and new freight cars). This is the kind of consideration that drives us era-modelers nuts... Best wishes, Rick Tipton Who's now waffling between summer 1966 and summer 1968 for the new Buckeye Division layout. You wouldn't believe how much difference 2 years made in the equipment used in southwestern Ohio. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CBAF.623570E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi all;  I think you may be being too hard on yourselves.  The truth is, that you can probably develop sessions for different years with not much difficulty.  Granted, you may have repack dates on your cars that won't match up with earlier or later dates, but who can tell anyway on a moving train!  You will, in all likelihood, be the only person who would notice!  You can swap out cars, engines, automobiles, billboards, and other details, to change your era convincingly, at least within a five years period or so.
I went through this all a number of years ago.  My solution was to figure out exactly what I needed to change out to make the switch from year to year.  It gives me the option of changing the year, year-by-year, to allow me to phase out early freight cars and diesels, and introduce new ones in their stead.
I can change a couple billboards, change a few autos on the layout, take a few H21s, GSs, X29s off, and add a couple G41s and later boxcars, and voila!
No, I can't model 1957 or 1967, as those safety ladders and Trainphones can't come off, but who says that you have to have all your equipment on the layout all the time, anyway!
Best of the day,
Elden
P.S. And Rick,  I can't believe you wouldn't want to have at least one session with the Lima Transfers running around!
-----Original Message-----
From: RickTipton@aol.com [mailto:RickTipton@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 4:15 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PRR-Modeling@egroups.com; PRR@egroups.com
Subject: [PRR] Cabins in NK4, CK, SK1b

In a message dated 1/31/03 7:58:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Schemes
From: <SUVCWORR@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 19:50:36 EST


--part1_1a3.10108df1.2b6c73dc_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jerry:

The Pennsylvania Railroad Compendium on begining on page 106 has the cabin
car  arrangement of letters drawings based upon those reproduced drawings:

Shadow Keystone
ND, NDA, N6, N6B         drawing date 1-5-56
N5, N5A, N5B, N5C, N5D, N5E, N5F   drawing stged 12-8-55
N8   drawing 12-15-55

All the shadow keystone revised drawings are post 1954 freight car SK

Plain Keystone are all dated 12-61

Rich Orr



True --

To be more specific, those post-1954 SK lettering arrangement schemes conform to the stencils of phase SK1b.  Notice that the issue dates of the drawings reinforce the idea that there were NO SK1a cabin cars (or flats, or gons, or stock cars, etc.).

Going back into the past, most of us are familiar with the 1948 CK variant that was standard on N8 cabins (and only on N8) -- that one used a Circle Keystone.  There's enough evidence that around 1931 the PRR painted a few cabins in an experimental CK scheme using the circle keystone -- or else they painted the same car in each scheme sequentially.  However, this/these schemes were withdrawn, and so PRR cabin cars continued to be lettered in 1926's NK4 scheme (no keystone) until the SK1b came along.

There's more on this in my Summer 2002 Keystone article, and I hope to illustrate a cabin article on this someday.

Jerry, as applied to your 1954 layout, the good/bad news is that you'll have no Shadow Keystone cabins at all.   Further, the only cabins with CK showing will be the N8's.  And your freight car fleet will be a sea of CK, with almost no SK1a or SK1b showing.

I know you picked 1954 for good reason.  But for freight cars and cabins, a 1955 or 1956 cutoff would add much more variety (both paint schemes and new freight cars).  This is the kind of consideration that drives us era-modelers nuts...

Best wishes,

Rick Tipton
Who's now waffling between summer 1966 and summer 1968 for the new Buckeye Division layout.  You wouldn't believe how much difference 2 years made in the equipment used in southwestern Ohio.
------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CBAF.623570E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:43:07 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic --part1_c.8f24875.2b702e5b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/3/03 9:01:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, frederick.ripley@murraystate.edu writes: > The route furthestest on the system was from Toledo to the east. > > See photos of "Sharks" and "Jennies" moving east, over "Bridge # 1" from > "Whiskey" island on NYC tracks in a Keystone article on the C&P docks. (One > of the photos is, I believe, mislabeled as westbound) > I also believe that these trains mostly headed east, via NYC trackage rights > to Ashtabula, the B&LE or perhaps as far as Erie. (full trains of ore > jennies were often stored on tracks that may have been PRR, north of the > convention center and south of the stadium) > Ore trains also went SE, via Alliance and the C&P - but these were mostly > in hopper trains - going south to bring coal back up to the C&P rotary > dumper. > > Related question - when did the "Jennies" start to get their furry, > insulated coating? > > Dick --part1_c.8f24875.2b702e5b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/3/03= 9:01:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, frederick.ripley@murraystate.edu writes:<= BR>

The route furthestest on the sy= stem was from Toledo to the east.

See photos of "Sharks" and "Jennies" moving east, over "Bridge # 1" from "Wh= iskey" island on NYC tracks in a Keystone article on the C&P docks. (One= of the photos is, I believe, mislabeled as westbound)


I also believe that these train= s mostly headed east, via NYC trackage rights to Ashtabula, the B&LE or=20= perhaps as far as Erie. (full trains of ore jennies were often stored on tra= cks that may have been PRR, north of the convention center and south of the=20= stadium)
Ore trains also went SE, via Alliance and the C&P - but these were mostl= y in hopper trains - going south to bring coal back up to the C&P rotary= dumper.

Related question - when did the "Jennies" start to get their furry, insulate= d coating?

Dick


--part1_c.8f24875.2b702e5b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Capt. ER Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 21:47:42 +0000 Does anyone have an E mail address for John Teichmoeller or know the source of the plan of the ER that appeared in the Keystone several years ago? I'd like to get a bigger more legible copy for modeling purposes. Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 17:04:15 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_NB1F3SahtfKizFgePCzaGA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Regarding the previously posted comment> I also believe that these trains mostly headed east, via NYC trackage rights to Ashtabula, the B&LE or perhaps as far as Erie. (full trains of ore jennies were often stored on tracks that may have been PRR, north of the convention center and south of the stadium) Be advised that ex-lake ore unloaded at PRR docks at: Cleveland went east on the C&P Ashtabula went east on the PY&A Erie went east on the E&P or P&E It would be very highly unlikely for ore unloaded at any of the above PRR docks to go anywhere on the NYC. However, ex-Lake ore unloaded at Conneaut on the B&LE was interchanged to the PRR at Shenango on the E&P for movement to Sharon, Sharpsville and Youngstown. Al --Boundary_(ID_NB1F3SahtfKizFgePCzaGA) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message
Regarding the previously posted comment> I also believe that these trains mostly headed east, via NYC trackage rights to Ashtabula, the B&LE or perhaps as far as Erie. (full trains of ore jennies were often stored on tracks that may have been PRR, north of the convention center and south of the stadium)
 
 
Be advised that ex-lake ore unloaded at PRR docks at:
Cleveland went east on the C&P
Ashtabula went east on the PY&A
Erie went east on the E&P or P&E
 
It would be very highly unlikely for ore unloaded at any of the above PRR docks to go anywhere on the NYC.
 
However, ex-Lake ore unloaded at Conneaut on the B&LE was interchanged to the PRR at Shenango on the E&P for movement to Sharon, Sharpsville and Youngstown.
 
Al
 
 
--Boundary_(ID_NB1F3SahtfKizFgePCzaGA)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 22:25:20 +0000 I have some pictures of insulated PRR ore cars descending the curve in the late 60's or more probably the early 70's. I assume these would have been in ore transfer service between one of the Pittsburgh USS plants and heading for Fairless works? Norm Bell > Regarding the previously posted comment> I also believe that these > trains mostly headed east, via NYC trackage rights to Ashtabula, the > B&LE or perhaps as far as Erie. (full trains of ore jennies were often > stored on tracks that may have been PRR, north of the convention center > and south of the stadium) > > > > Be advised that ex-lake ore unloaded at PRR docks at: > Cleveland went east on the C&P > Ashtabula went east on the PY&A > Erie went east on the E&P or P&E > > It would be very highly unlikely for ore unloaded at any of the above > PRR docks to go anywhere on the NYC. > > However, ex-Lake ore unloaded at Conneaut on the B&LE was interchanged > to the PRR at Shenango on the E&P for movement to Sharon, Sharpsville > and Youngstown. > > Al > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:41:22 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations --0-1938729542-1044312082=:98629 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Here's a topic I've not seen addressed elsewhere, and while probably more appropriate to southern railroad forums, there is a peripheral relation to the PRR. I know that in the days of segregation there were separate waiting rooms and facilites in most southern stations for "white" and "colored" passengers. What about equipment? Were there separate coaches for white and non-white passengers, and, if not, where cars in the south segregated on a sort of front of the bus/back of the bus basis? What about Pullman/sleeper/diner accommodations? I don't know if there was enough "colored" traffic to support separate cars but there had to be some travel by "colored" individuals that required Pullman services. How were such passengers handled? If separate coaches/sleepers were assigned to "colored" passengers were these marked in any way, either permanently or temporarily? If separate equipment was used, was it always assigned only to "coloreds", and not used for white passengers? Now th P.S. I use the terms "white" and "colored" only because those seem to be correct for the period in question. I have no desire to offend or create any controversy by use of these terms, in lieu of "Caucasian", "Negro", "black", etc., and have no desire to initiate or participate in any socio-politcal discussion--just want to know what was the situation on the railroads. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1938729542-1044312082=:98629 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Here's a topic I've not seen addressed elsewhere, and while probably more appropriate to southern railroad forums, there is a peripheral relation to the PRR.  I know that in the days of segregation there were separate waiting rooms and facilites in most southern stations for "white" and "colored" passengers.  What about equipment?  Were there separate coaches for white and non-white passengers, and, if not, where cars in the south segregated on a sort of front of the bus/back of the bus basis?  What about Pullman/sleeper/diner accommodations?  I don't know if there was enough "colored" traffic to support separate cars but there had to be some travel by "colored" individuals that required Pullman services.  How were such passengers handled?  If separate coaches/sleepers were assigned to "colored" passengers were these marked in any way, either permanently or temporarily? If separate equipment was used, was it always assigned only to "coloreds",

P.S.  I use the terms "white" and "colored" only because those seem to be correct for the period in question.  I have no desire to offend or create any controversy by use of these terms, in lieu of "Caucasian", "Negro", "black", etc., and have no desire to initiate or participate in any socio-politcal discussion--just want to know what was the situation on the railroads.

 


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1938729542-1044312082=:98629-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Al Buchan Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 17:56:20 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] RE: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations Not only were the station waiting rooms segregated, so were the rest rooms and in some cases water fountains. Al [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 17:53:27 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic Re the comment: I have some pictures of insulated PRR ore cars descending the curve in the late 60's or more probably the early 70's. I assume these would have been in ore transfer service between one of the Pittsburgh USS plants and heading for Fairless works? First question is can you determine if they are really loaded with ore (check the springs)? Typically the eastward movement of ore jennies on the curve would have been mtys returning to Pier 122 in PHL for loading of South American ore for return movement to the Pittsburgh area. Fairless typically got its ore from its own docks at the Fairless works. Some may have been lightered at PHL for movement to Fairless to allow the ships to navigate the Delaware River upper channels. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 17:56:20 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_0jBXyDEIHizT3OQoIwlh+Q) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Not only were the station waiting rooms segregated, so were the rest rooms and in some cases water fountains. Al --Boundary_(ID_0jBXyDEIHizT3OQoIwlh+Q) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message
Not only were the station waiting rooms segregated, so were the rest rooms and in some cases water fountains.
 
Al
 
--Boundary_(ID_0jBXyDEIHizT3OQoIwlh+Q)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:59:44 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CBD7.F1161A80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Norm, If those cars are full, it indicates a rather unusual situation, as I think most of us believed that the ore traffic was primarily going west from South Philly to Pgh and eastern Ohio blast furnaces (at least between Philly and Pittsburgh on the main line). The traffic I remember seeing was coming into Pitcairn or Conway from the east, getting reclassified to locals, and ending up at Edgar Thomson, Duquesne or Homestead (Carrie Furnaces) of USS, possibly also J&L Pittsburgh, although I do not know for sure on this last part. I understand some went further west to Weirton and elsewhere. I never saw an additional part of this traffic, and I do not know how this was done and on what ore source, but some ore went to Saxonburg for sintering, so would have been diverted off the main onto the Conemaugh at some point. I also do remember that a lot of ore that came up the Monongahela was already pelletized, both in regular hoppers and ore cars (G38/39). The pellets were always scattered all over the right-of-way, providing the look of red speckles in the otherwise grey (or black) ballast. At least one car in a train seemed to be "bleeding" pellets. You had to watch out with standing too close to the tracks when these went by, as those pellets hurt! Even the ore cars bled, as the G38's had those holes in them. I believe that most of the pellets came from Ashtabula or somewhere else on the lakes, as the stuff coming in from the east was (I think!) powdery. I think I am just guessing, but wouldn't Fairless have utilized Venezuelan ore by the time the ore cars became available? Due to the shorter distance from Philly? Just a guess! Elden P.S. I need someone to provide more info on this, but my memory is that there were very few of the insulated cars during the PRR years. I only remember a few in a sea of uninsulated cars. Is this just my selective memory? -----Original Message----- From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net] Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 2:25 PM To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CBD7.F1161A80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic

Norm,  If those cars are full, it indicates a = rather unusual situation, as I think most of us believed that the ore = traffic was primarily going west from South Philly to Pgh and eastern = Ohio blast furnaces (at least between Philly and Pittsburgh on the main = line).  The traffic I remember seeing was coming into Pitcairn or = Conway from the east, getting reclassified to locals, and ending up at = Edgar Thomson, Duquesne or Homestead (Carrie Furnaces) of USS, possibly = also J&L Pittsburgh, although I do not know for sure on this last = part.  I understand some went further west to Weirton and = elsewhere.  I never saw an additional part of this traffic, and I = do not know how this was done and on what ore source, but some ore went = to Saxonburg for sintering, so would have been diverted off the main = onto the Conemaugh at some point.  I also do remember that a lot = of ore that came up the Monongahela was already pelletized, both in = regular hoppers and ore cars (G38/39).  The pellets were always = scattered all over the right-of-way, providing the look of red speckles = in the otherwise grey (or black) ballast. At least one car in a train = seemed to be "bleeding" pellets.  You had to watch out = with standing too close to the tracks when these went by, as those = pellets hurt!  Even the ore cars bled, as the G38's had those = holes in them.  I believe that most of the pellets came from = Ashtabula or somewhere else on the lakes, as the stuff coming in from = the east was (I think!) powdery.  I think I am just guessing, but = wouldn't Fairless have utilized Venezuelan ore by the time the ore cars = became available?  Due to the shorter distance from Philly?  = Just a guess!

Elden
P.S. I need someone to provide more info on this, = but my memory is that there were very few of the insulated cars during = the PRR years.  I only remember a few in a sea of uninsulated = cars.  Is this just my selective memory?

-----Original Message-----
From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net]
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 2:25 PM
To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic



------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CBD7.F1161A80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:03:36 -0800 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations I believe there was some interesting writings about this the the PRRTHS Keystone or Philadelphia Chapter Highline specifically related to the line to Winchester VA Bennett Levin ----- Original Message ----- From: Ronald Di Orio To: MoPac HS ; PRR Fax ; PRR Talk Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 2:41 PM Subject: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations Here's a topic I've not seen addressed elsewhere, and while probably more appropriate to southern railroad forums, there is a peripheral relation to the PRR. I know that in the days of segregation there were separate waiting rooms and facilites in most southern stations for "white" and "colored" passengers. What about equipment? Were there separate coaches for white and non-white passengers, and, if not, where cars in the south segregated on a sort of front of the bus/back of the bus basis? What about Pullman/sleeper/diner accommodations? I don't know if there was enough "colored" traffic to support separate cars but there had to be some travel by "colored" individuals that required Pullman services. How were such passengers handled? If separate coaches/sleepers were assigned to "colored" passengers were these marked in any way, either permanently or temporarily? If separate equipment was used, was it always assigned only to "coloreds", P.S. I use the terms "white" and "colored" only because those seem to be correct for the period in question. I have no desire to offend or create any controversy by use of these terms, in lieu of "Caucasian", "Negro", "black", etc., and have no desire to initiate or participate in any socio-politcal discussion--just want to know what was the situation on the railroads. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:03:36 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0911_01C2CB95.6DA2B2E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I believe there was some interesting writings about this the the PRRTHS = Keystone or Philadelphia Chapter Highline specifically related to the = line to Winchester VA Bennett Levin ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ronald Di Orio=20 To: MoPac HS ; PRR Fax ; PRR Talk=20 Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 2:41 PM Subject: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations Here's a topic I've not seen addressed elsewhere, and while probably = more appropriate to southern railroad forums, there is a peripheral = relation to the PRR. I know that in the days of segregation there were = separate waiting rooms and facilites in most southern stations for = "white" and "colored" passengers. What about equipment? Were there = separate coaches for white and non-white passengers, and, if not, where = cars in the south segregated on a sort of front of the bus/back of the = bus basis? What about Pullman/sleeper/diner accommodations? I don't = know if there was enough "colored" traffic to support separate cars but = there had to be some travel by "colored" individuals that required = Pullman services. How were such passengers handled? If separate = coaches/sleepers were assigned to "colored" passengers were these marked = in any way, either permanently or temporarily? If separate equipment was = used, was it always assigned only to "coloreds",=20 P.S. I use the terms "white" and "colored" only because those seem to = be correct for the period in question. I have no desire to offend or = create any controversy by use of these terms, in lieu of "Caucasian", = "Negro", "black", etc., and have no desire to initiate or participate in = any socio-politcal discussion--just want to know what was the situation = on the railroads. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------=_NextPart_000_0911_01C2CB95.6DA2B2E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I believe there was some interesting = writings about=20 this the the PRRTHS Keystone or Philadelphia Chapter Highline = specifically=20 related to the line to Winchester VA
 
Bennett Levin
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ronald = Di Orio=20
To: MoPac HS ; PRR = Fax ; PRR = Talk
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 = 2:41=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Segregation and = Passenger=20 Accomodations

Here's a topic I've not seen addressed elsewhere, and while = probably more=20 appropriate to southern railroad forums, there is a peripheral = relation to the=20 PRR.  I know that in the days of segregation there were separate = waiting=20 rooms and facilites in most southern stations for "white" and = "colored"=20 passengers.  What about equipment?  Were there separate = coaches for=20 white and non-white passengers, and, if not, where cars in the south=20 segregated on a sort of front of the bus/back of the bus basis?  = What=20 about Pullman/sleeper/diner accommodations?  I don't know if = there was=20 enough "colored" traffic to support separate cars but there had to be = some=20 travel by "colored" individuals that required Pullman services.  = How were=20 such passengers handled?  If separate coaches/sleepers were = assigned to=20 "colored" passengers were these marked in any way, either permanently = or=20 temporarily? If separate equipment was used, was it always = assigned only=20 to "coloreds",=20

P.S.  I use the terms "white" and "colored" only because those = seem to=20 be correct for the period in question.  I have no desire to = offend or=20 create any controversy by use of these terms, in lieu of "Caucasian", = "Negro",=20 "black", etc., and have no desire to initiate or participate in any=20 socio-politcal discussion--just want to know what was the situation on = the=20 railroads.

 


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Yaho= o! Mail=20 Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign= up=20 now ------=_NextPart_000_0911_01C2CB95.6DA2B2E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:41:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations Here's a topic I've not seen addressed elsewhere, and while probably more appropriate to southern railroad forums, there is a peripheral relation to the PRR. I know that in the days of segregation there were separate waiting rooms and facilites in most southern stations for "white" and "colored" passengers. What about equipment? Were there separate coaches for white and non-white passengers, and, if not, where cars in the south segregated on a sort of front of the bus/back of the bus basis? What about Pullman/sleeper/diner accommodations? I don't know if there was enough "colored" traffic to support separate cars but there had to be some travel by "colored" individuals that required Pullman services. How were such passengers handled? If separate coaches/sleepers were assigned to "colored" passengers were these marked in any way, either permanently or temporarily? If separate equipment was used, was it always assigned only to "coloreds", and not used for white passengers? Now the question as it effects the PRR. On through sleepers to southern destinations originating on the PRR, what was the policy? As I previously stated, an unusual topic but I would like to find some direction in getting answers. Ron P.S. I use the terms "white" and "colored" only because those seem to be correct for the period in question. I have no desire to offend or create any controversy by use of these terms, in lieu of "Caucasian", "Negro", "black", etc., and have no desire to initiate or participate in any socio-politcal discussion--just want to know what was the situation on the railroads. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:25:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] P-54 and X42 Thanks to all those who sent on information on my queries. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:25:57 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] P-54 and X42 --0-228668470-1044314757=:13400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks to all those who sent on information on my queries. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-228668470-1044314757=:13400 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Thanks to all those who sent on information on my queries.  Ron


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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-228668470-1044314757=:13400-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 18:26:07 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_rA31ee7PmOtrBvVX5JrR0g) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Elden, et al., I don't believe too many of the Jennies got the foam protection. Al --Boundary_(ID_rA31ee7PmOtrBvVX5JrR0g) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message
Elden, et al.,
 
I don't believe too many of the Jennies got the foam protection.
 
Al


--Boundary_(ID_rA31ee7PmOtrBvVX5JrR0g)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 19:24:11 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic In a message dated 2/3/03 5:09:30 PM Central Standard Time, ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com writes: << was already pelletized, both in regular hoppers and ore cars (G38/39). The pellets were always scattered all over the right-of-way, providing the look of red speckles in the otherwise grey (or black) ballast. >> I have a question about the color. The pellets I have seen looked more gray, in some cases a sort of gray-brown. Were some in the iron oxide red color? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:35:47 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CBE5.5C666940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Bob, The ones I have at home are red with a partial brown (oxidized?) coating. They clearly look red to me, as that is how I spotted them when picking them up off the roadbed. I now wish I had picked up more! And some coke to go with it( the other detritus worth going after)! I'd like to see some of the other ones and the story behind all of them. Plus, the insides of the ore jennies were redder than any car I've ever seen....Have you seen that overhead in vol3 of the Morning Sun PRR freight series? Wow! Best, Elden -----Original Message----- From: Bobspf@aol.com [mailto:Bobspf@aol.com] Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 4:24 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CBE5.5C666940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic

Bob,  The ones I have at home are red with a = partial brown (oxidized?) coating.  They clearly look red to me, = as that is how I spotted them when picking them up off the = roadbed.  I now wish I had picked up more!  And some coke to = go with it( the other detritus worth going after)!  I'd like to = see some of the other ones and the story behind all of them.  = Plus, the insides of the ore jennies were redder than any car I've ever = seen....Have you seen that overhead in vol3 of the Morning Sun PRR = freight series?  Wow!

Best,
Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Bobspf@aol.com [mailto:Bobspf@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 4:24 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic



------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CBE5.5C666940-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 20:42:11 -0400 From: A Samostie Subject: Re: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations Dear Ronald and Group, I'm not familiar with how things worked on the PRR or other "northern" railroads whose systems extended into states where the "Jim Crow" laws applied. But, on many southern railroads, "colored" passengers were indeed seated in separate coaches, or in separate sections of coaches. For example, GM&N's "Rebel" streamliner included a "Jim Crow" buffet-coach. Whether the railroad management approved or not (it must have created its share of operational difficulties), sadly, it was the law. I notice this message has been cross-posted to the MoPac Historical Society Yahoo list. I imagine that members of that list will be more familiar with operations in the segregated south, since it was MoPac's home territory. On the bright side, the railroads did provide employment opportunities for many African-American men, in an era when few other opportunities were available. James Porterfield's "Dining by Rail" provides some interesting insights. Although the more desirable positions were still reserved for whites in many cases, experienced black cooks could be promoted to chef on railroads that were willing or able to do so. Cheers, Alan Samostie ELHS #3178 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] segeration Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 20:21:47 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C2CBC1.E07B5160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I remember riding the Train from Philadelphia, Pa. to Salisbury, MD to = spend the Summer with my Uncle and Aunt in Ocean City, MD. and when we = would leave the station around Delmar, the Conductor walked thru the = cars and would announce Jim Crow Car to the rear. All Colored Folks to = the last car!! Hell I didn't know any better when I was a kid and I played many a trip = with the Black Kids in the car before the Jim Crow Car announcement. And = life goes on. Lee Burbage USCG-Ret. Ex Railroader also. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C2CBC1.E07B5160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I remember riding the Train from Philadelphia, Pa. to Salisbury, MD = to=20 spend the Summer with my Uncle and Aunt in Ocean City, MD. and when we = would=20 leave the station around Delmar, the Conductor walked thru the cars and = would=20 announce Jim Crow Car to the rear. All Colored Folks to the last = car!!
 
Hell I didn't know any better when I was a kid and I played many a = trip=20 with the Black Kids in the car before the Jim Crow Car announcement. And = life=20 goes on.
 
 
Lee Burbage
USCG-Ret.
Ex Railroader also.
------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C2CBC1.E07B5160-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 20:33:44 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations In a message dated 2/3/03 4:53:16 PM, prr2249@yahoo.com writes: << What about equipment? Were there separate coaches for white and non-white passengers, and, if not, where cars in the south segregated on a sort of front of the bus/back of the bus basis? What about Pullman/sleeper/diner accommodations? I don't know if there was enough "colored" traffic to support separate cars but there had to be some travel by "colored" individuals that required Pullman services. How were such passengers handled? If separate coaches/sleepers were assigned to "colored" passengers were these marked in any way, either permanently or temporarily? If separate equipment was used, was it always assigned only to "coloreds", and not used for white passengers? >> My Pennsy experience started in 1960. In the North, in NYC and Philly and Chicago, I don't recall any major racial segregation. But, in Washington, DC and southern locations, there was. I was a NYC liberal and remember being shocked in the Pennsy engine house south of Cincinnati (in Kentucky?) in 1963 when I noticed the black US Mailman, in the blue-grey uniform and leather mail sack, eating his lunch by himself in a room off to the side and being told that that was the "Negro" locker room. If you are interested in this subject from a research point of view, you may want to check some recent black authors. I remember a review of a book by a black author telling about how, when a boy, he and his family went on vacation in the South. There were specific places that were not hostile to northern blacks and they planned the trips around these places. There also has to be some material from Randolph's Sleeping Car Porters, some of whom may have been more hostile to black first class passengers than white railroad employees. Both the Red Caps and Sleeping Car Porters groups were all black. Both jobs were unusual in that they paid well. I'm certain that there are books/articles that describe the situation before, during, and after the war. But, many black travelers had great coping skills and probably simply adapted their behavior to fit the surrounding discrimination. I do remember in NYC, a train that went south along the coast, interchanging a couple of times (RF&P to ACL to FEC?) and coming back north. The car cleaners at the time in NYC referred to it as the "Chicken Bone Special" because passengers in both directions routinely opted not to buy from the RR under their terms, but simply carried their own provisions, frequently, home fried chicken carried in brown paper bags. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 21:36:34 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations In a message dated 2/3/03 7:42:50 PM Central Standard Time, LAMAassoc@aol.com writes: << In the North, in NYC and Philly and Chicago, I don't recall any major racial segregation. >> I dont know about the railroads, but at least in Chicago, there were separate facilities for the races in many locations. In college, I interviewed for a summer job in about 1957 at a steel foundry which had separate toilet and shower facilities. Not the only example there. I note that the January 2003 issue of Mainline Modeler plan for a KCS "divided coach" doesn't mention its purpose. Smoking/nonsmoking or a Jim Crow car, I don't know. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 21:42:42 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C2CBCD.2E913E40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List, I am going to give my observations as a former PRR employee who worked = in the Traffic Department in a Southern city (New Orleans) before = passage of the civil rights legislation of the mid-1960's that outlawed = segregation in interstate passenger accomodations. First, where there was more than one coach on a train, a separate coach = for "coloreds" was furnished, unless there were too few to even half = fill a coach. In that case, a "Jim Crow" coach was furnished that was = divided into three sections - two large ones at the ends and one in the = middle that contained only four seats (seated 8), which was usually used = by the crew. Rode in one of these cars (a former N&W) in Mexico, that = had been divided into one half "primera clase" and one half "segunda = clase".. There were also many combines in the South where the baggage = compartment was in the middle and the races sat at either end. Now, as to how the PRR handled this on trains to and from the South. The = Southerner, for example, was a through train from New York to New = Orleans and carried through coaches and Pullmans. If someone in New = Orleans was making a round trip to New York (or Philly, etc.), New = Orleans Union Passenger Terminal would call the PRR office and we would = teletype New York, which held the Southbound space. Since the states = where the train originated frowned upon seqregation, but it was the law = in the South, the clerks at the Terminal would let us know subtly if the = passengers were "colored" and we would make reservations for = "xpassenger".. When using the teletype, it was difficult to back space, = and you could only retype a spacebar whick opened all the holes in the = tape, so "x"'s were often used for corrections, but never before the = word "passenger" as that had a definite meaning. "Xpassengers" = magically ended up in the coach that became the "colored" car once the = trains were South of Washington. In New Orleans, the streetcars had holes in the top of the reversible = wooden seats where a sign was placed "For our colored patrons only". = These could be moved depending on the number of folks of each race in = the car. Enogh recollection of an era we're not particularly pround of. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ronald Di Orio=20 To: MoPac HS ; PRR Fax ; PRR Talk=20 Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 5:41 PM Subject: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations Here's a topic I've not seen addressed elsewhere, and while probably = more appropriate to southern railroad forums, there is a peripheral = relation to the PRR. I know that in the days of segregation there were = separate waiting rooms and facilites in most southern stations for = "white" and "colored" passengers. What about equipment? Were there = separate coaches for white and non-white passengers, and, if not, where = cars in the south segregated on a sort of front of the bus/back of the = bus basis? What about Pullman/sleeper/diner accommodations? I don't = know if there was enough "colored" traffic to support separate cars but = there had to be some travel by "colored" individuals that required = Pullman services. How were such passengers handled? If separate = coaches/sleepers were assigned to "colored" passengers were these marked = in any way, either permanently or temporarily? If separate equipment was = used, was it always assigned only to "coloreds",=20 P.S. I use the terms "white" and "colored" only because those seem to = be correct for the period in question. I have no desire to offend or = create any controversy by use of these terms, in lieu of "Caucasian", = "Negro", "black", etc., and have no desire to initiate or participate in = any socio-politcal discussion--just want to know what was the situation = on the railroads. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C2CBCD.2E913E40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
List,
 
I am going to give my observations as a former PRR = employee=20 who worked in the Traffic Department in a Southern city (New Orleans) = before=20 passage of the civil rights legislation of the mid-1960's that outlawed=20 segregation in interstate passenger accomodations.
 
First, where there was more than one coach on a = train, a=20 separate coach for "coloreds" was furnished, unless there were too few = to even=20 half fill a coach. In that case, a "Jim Crow" coach was furnished that = was=20 divided into three sections - two large ones at the ends and one in the = middle=20 that contained only four seats (seated 8), which was usually used by the = crew.=20 Rode in one of these cars (a former N&W) in Mexico, that had been = divided=20 into one half "primera clase" and one half "segunda clase".. There were = also=20 many combines in the South where the baggage compartment was in the = middle and=20 the races sat at either end.
 
Now, as to how the PRR handled this on trains to and = from the=20 South. The Southerner, for example, was a through train from New York to = New=20 Orleans and carried through coaches and Pullmans. If someone in New = Orleans was=20 making a round trip to New York (or Philly, etc.),  New Orleans = Union=20 Passenger Terminal would call the PRR office and we would teletype New = York,=20 which held the Southbound space. Since the states where the train=20 originated frowned upon seqregation, but it was the law in the South, = the clerks=20 at the Terminal would let us know subtly if the passengers were = "colored" and we=20 would make reservations for "xpassenger".. When using the teletype, it = was=20 difficult to back space, and you could only retype a spacebar whick = opened=20 all the holes in the tape, so "x"'s were often used for corrections, but = never=20 before the word "passenger" as that had a definite = meaning.  "Xpassengers" magically ended up in the coach that became the = "colored"=20 car once the trains were South of Washington.
 
In New Orleans, the streetcars had holes in the top = of the=20 reversible wooden seats where a sign was placed "For our colored patrons = only".=20 These could be moved depending on the number of folks of each race in = the=20 car.
 
Enogh recollection of an era we're not particularly = pround=20 of.
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ronald = Di Orio=20
To: MoPac HS ; PRR = Fax ; PRR = Talk
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 = 5:41=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Segregation and = Passenger=20 Accomodations

Here's a topic I've not seen addressed elsewhere, and while = probably more=20 appropriate to southern railroad forums, there is a peripheral = relation to the=20 PRR.  I know that in the days of segregation there were separate = waiting=20 rooms and facilites in most southern stations for "white" and = "colored"=20 passengers.  What about equipment?  Were there separate = coaches for=20 white and non-white passengers, and, if not, where cars in the south=20 segregated on a sort of front of the bus/back of the bus basis?  = What=20 about Pullman/sleeper/diner accommodations?  I don't know if = there was=20 enough "colored" traffic to support separate cars but there had to be = some=20 travel by "colored" individuals that required Pullman services.  = How were=20 such passengers handled?  If separate coaches/sleepers were = assigned to=20 "colored" passengers were these marked in any way, either permanently = or=20 temporarily? If separate equipment was used, was it always = assigned only=20 to "coloreds",=20

P.S.  I use the terms "white" and "colored" only because those = seem to=20 be correct for the period in question.  I have no desire to = offend or=20 create any controversy by use of these terms, in lieu of "Caucasian", = "Negro",=20 "black", etc., and have no desire to initiate or participate in any=20 socio-politcal discussion--just want to know what was the situation on = the=20 railroads.

 


Do you Yahoo!?
Yaho= o! Mail=20 Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign= up=20 now ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C2CBCD.2E913E40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bbreynolds@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 21:52:32 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations In a message from LAMAassoc@aol.com at 2/3/2003 8:42:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, Marty wrote: >But, many black travelers had great coping skills and probably simply adapted >their behavior to fit the surrounding discrimination. I do remember in NYC, a >train that went south along the coast, interchanging a couple of times (RF&P >to ACL to FEC?) and coming back north. The car cleaners at the time in NYC >referred to it as the "Chicken Bone Special" because passengers in both >directions routinely opted not to buy from the RR under their terms, but >simply carried their own provisions, frequently, home fried chicken carried >in brown paper bags. This topic came up on misc.transport.rail.americas in 1997, with the subject header being Racial Segregation on psgr trains-Pennsylvania Railroad? initiated by "Lisa or Jeff" (the Hancocks). My contribution to the thread was as follows: "Personal observation from the mid-'60's: the Southern Crescent had a defacto if not de jure Jim Crow coach. I would see it coming south through Newark NJ on Sunday afternoons while I was waiting for a local to New Brunswick. Even within the 15 minutes of so from Penn Station in NYC to Newark, the folks had already set up for the long haul, one where they knew they would not be welcome in the dining car after Washington; the cars that I saw in use always seemed to be heavyweight day coaches (with a/c) painted gray, rather than the Crescent green scheme. Will try to confirm that there was a "special fare" coach rate available on the Crescent, or it was just tradition for the trainmen to direct the folks to that particular car in NYC". It appeared that fried chicken was part of the lunch basket menu. A quick google under groups will get the full thread. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 21:52:32 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations --part1_68.2c8eea11.2b7084f0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message from LAMAassoc@aol.com at 2/3/2003 8:42:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, Marty wrote: >But, many black travelers had great coping skills and probably simply adapted >their behavior to fit the surrounding discrimination. I do remember in NYC, a >train that went south along the coast, interchanging a couple of times (RF&P >to ACL to FEC?) and coming back north. The car cleaners at the time in NYC >referred to it as the "Chicken Bone Special" because passengers in both >directions routinely opted not to buy from the RR under their terms, but >simply carried their own provisions, frequently, home fried chicken carried >in brown paper bags. This topic came up on misc.transport.rail.americas in 1997, with the subject header being Racial Segregation on psgr trains-Pennsylvania Railroad? initiated by "Lisa or Jeff" (the Hancocks). My contribution to the thread was as follows: "Personal observation from the mid-'60's: the Southern Crescent had a defacto if not de jure Jim Crow coach. I would see it coming south through Newark NJ on Sunday afternoons while I was waiting for a local to New Brunswick. Even within the 15 minutes of so from Penn Station in NYC to Newark, the folks had already set up for the long haul, one where they knew they would not be welcome in the dining car after Washington; the cars that I saw in use always seemed to be heavyweight day coaches (with a/c) painted gray, rather than the Crescent green scheme. Will try to confirm that there was a "special fare" coach rate available on the Crescent, or it was just tradition for the trainmen to direct the folks to that particular car in NYC". It appeared that fried chicken was part of the lunch basket menu. A quick google under groups will get the full thread. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_68.2c8eea11.2b7084f0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message from LAMAassoc@aol.com at 2/3/2003 8:42:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, Marty wrote:

>But, many black travelers had great coping skills and probably simply adapted
>their behavior to fit the surrounding discrimination. I do remember in NYC, a
>train that went south along the coast, interchanging a couple of times (RF&P
>to ACL to FEC?) and coming back north. The car cleaners at the time in NYC
>referred to it as the "Chicken Bone Special" because passengers in both
>directions routinely opted not to buy from the RR under their terms, but
>simply carried their own provisions, frequently, home fried chicken carried
>in brown paper bags.

This topic came up on misc.transport.rail.americas in 1997, with
the subject header being

Racial Segregation on psgr trains-Pennsylvania Railroad?

initiated by "Lisa or Jeff" (the Hancocks).

My contribution to the thread was as follows:

"Personal observation from the mid-'60's: the Southern Crescent had a defacto if not de jure Jim Crow coach.  I would see it coming south through Newark NJ on Sunday afternoons while I was waiting for a local to New Brunswick.  Even within the 15 minutes of so from Penn Station in NYC to Newark, the folks had already set up for the long haul, one where they knew they would not be welcome in the dining car after Washington; the cars that I saw in use always seemed to be heavyweight day coaches (with a/c) painted gray, rather than the Crescent green scheme.  Will try to confirm that there was a "special fare" coach rate available on the Crescent, or it was just tradition for the trainmen to direct the folks to that particular car in NYC".

It appeared that fried chicken was part of the lunch basket menu.

A quick google under groups will get the full thread.

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_68.2c8eea11.2b7084f0_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 22:25:46 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accommodations Greetings to Jerry, the List and all who posted on this topic: The term "divided coach" was very definitely a euphemism for "Jim Crow car." Another sugar-coated term for the same thing was "partition coach." If you scan old timetables of Southern roads, carefully examining the equipment lists, you can sometimes find these terms. I've found them in Seaboard, Central of Georgia, and Florida East Coast timetables, although the practice extended well beyond those three roads. The CofG was particularly aggressive on this issue, proudly proclaiming (in the Official Guide, no less) that its postwar diesel-powered Nancy Hanks all-coach streamliner offered accommodations thus: "Seats for white passengers reserved."(Nov. 1950, p.664). The North Carolina Transportation Museum at Spencer has in its collection a streamlined divided coach (I think ex-Southern Ry.), which it uses to interpret the issue of civil rights to visitors. PRR, of course, was officially nonsegregated but some of its direct operations did touch the South, i.e., the Cumberland Valley Railroad into Virginia, thus implying a conflict with state laws requiring separate accommodations. Westhaeffer's history of that road, which is otherwise comprehensive, is silent on the issue. N&W, which was controlled by PRR, posted regulations in the cabooses of its mixed trains that governed how passengers were to be seated. These posters quickly disappeared after passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, PA Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 2/3/03 7:42:50 PM Central Standard Time, LAMAassoc@aol.com > writes: > > << In the North, in NYC and Philly and > Chicago, I don't recall any major racial segregation. >> > > I dont know about the railroads, but at least in Chicago, there were separate > facilities for the races in many locations. In college, I interviewed for a > summer job in about 1957 at a steel foundry which had separate toilet and > shower facilities. Not the only example there. > > I note that the January 2003 issue of Mainline Modeler plan for a KCS > "divided coach" doesn't mention its purpose. Smoking/nonsmoking or a Jim > Crow car, I don't know. > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 22:48:07 -0500 From: John Ryan Subject: Re: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations The Crescent "Green" scheme was long gone by the 1960's. Southern's cars were usually Budd and Pullman postwar lightweights. The train would sometimes use rebuilt heavyweight coaches that were painted a dark green, but this was not the famous Crescent two-tone green. John Ryan BBReynolds@aol.com wrote: > In a message from LAMAassoc@aol.com at 2/3/2003 8:42:46 PM Eastern > Standard Time, Marty wrote: > > >But, many black travelers had great coping skills and probably simply > adapted > >their behavior to fit the surrounding discrimination. I do remember in > NYC, a > >train that went south along the coast, interchanging a couple of times > (RF&P > >to ACL to FEC?) and coming back north. The car cleaners at the time in > NYC > >referred to it as the "Chicken Bone Special" because passengers in both > >directions routinely opted not to buy from the RR under their terms, but > >simply carried their own provisions, frequently, home fried chicken > carried > >in brown paper bags. > > This topic came up on misc.transport.rail.americas in 1997, with > the subject header being > > Racial Segregation on psgr trains-Pennsylvania Railroad? > > initiated by "Lisa or Jeff" (the Hancocks). > > My contribution to the thread was as follows: > > "Personal observation from the mid-'60's: the Southern Crescent had a > defacto if not de jure Jim Crow coach. I would see it coming south > through Newark NJ on Sunday afternoons while I was waiting for a local > to New Brunswick. Even within the 15 minutes of so from Penn Station in > NYC to Newark, the folks had already set up for the long haul, one where > they knew they would not be welcome in the dining car after Washington; > the cars that I saw in use always seemed to be heavyweight day coaches > (with a/c) painted gray, rather than the Crescent green scheme. Will > try to confirm that there was a "special fare" coach rate available on > the Crescent, or it was just tradition for the trainmen to direct the > folks to that particular car in NYC". > > It appeared that fried chicken was part of the lunch basket menu. > > A quick google under groups will get the full thread. > > Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 23:07:17 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic Re> The pellets I have seen looked more gray, in some cases a sort of gray-brown. Were some in the iron oxide red color? My experience with taconite pellet color is more of a dirty dusty grayish brown-red with a subtle hint of blue-violet maybe. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 01:02:37 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic In a message dated 2/3/03 10:07:09 PM Central Standard Time, abbuchan1@comcast.net writes: << My experience with taconite pellet color is more of a dirty dusty grayish brown-red with a subtle hint of blue-violet maybe. >> That is about the color of a few pellets I picked up in the Wisconsin Central repair shop from an Ortner hopper . Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 03:48:37 -0800 From: Peter Weiglin Subject: [PRR] Segregation and DelMarVa Many people forget that, before the Civil War, (also known as "the Late Unpleasantness, depending on where you are,) Maryland and Delaware were slave states, with a cultural mind-set not too different from that of Virginia. One suspects that the PRR, although a "Yankee" railroad, followed the local customs to some extent on the DelMarVa peninsula, but to what extent were "Jim Crow" laws and customs observed? Peter Weiglin San Mateo CA (but grew up in N'Yawk) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 07:12:05 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic Hi Bob, Not all iron ore was from the Missabe Range. One of the richest and oldest operating iron-ore mines in the US was in Cornwall, Pa. The iron ore from that mine was in limestone and it was gray not red. Regards, Nick Kulp I have a question about the color. The pellets I have seen looked more gray, in some cases a sort of gray-brown. Were some in the iron oxide red color? Bob Zoeller http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 07:28:18 -0500 From: "Gluckman, Robert" Subject: [PRR] Diamond Scale Turntable Does anyone have a current mailing address for Diamond Scale? I need a turntable for Renovo (mandatory PRR content) and would like to order one from them but I can't seem to find the correct address. Bob Gluckman IOC Data Repository/Backup & Disaster Recovery Database 8*222-2693 (585) 422-2693 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 07:58:33 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Segregation and DelMarVa Delmarva, being mostly MAryland and VirginiA were Jim Crow states with all the evil that implies. I don't know how that affected travel on the Delmarva lines-- I'm not old enough to remember of that era and didn't move here until the mid 70's-- but state laws then required separate, and usually unequal, accommodations. I assume that one of the coaches on the all coach Delmarva trains became a Jim Crow car when the train passed south through Delmar. An article in the C&O HS magazine recently reviewed one of their modern divided cars. Jim McDaniel, here in Delmarva where there is no passenger service of any sort ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 08:15:35 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] Stolen PRR Items !! Frank Kuhn has advise us of the following: Fellow Members in Early January an ex PRR employee had his collection of PRR items stolen During a Burglary at his home. Here are the following items stolen: 1 milepost # 289 1 oval "Watch out For Locomotive" Sign, and the following Oval Locomotive number Plates: 5201, 650, 7347, 8220, 1071, 1126, 2945, 3723, 4471, 4305 , 4237, 4245. Any Member who comes across or sees for sale at a swap meet or on ebay please report it stolen to the local authorities. Or Contact me at 717-292-0350 . The family of the gentleman are very upset and hope all items can be found. As members of the PRRT&HS lets help them out Thanks, Frank Kuhn PRRT&HS Media Director ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 08:35:29 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Diamond Scale Turntable From: Eugene Nowlan A new company demonstrated their turntable with superb indexing system at the Amherst Train Show this last weekend. Very well engineered table. The indexing was precise in both directions without the back & forth seek motion of the nearest competitor. Hope you find this of interest, Gene Nowlan > From: "Gluckman, Robert" > Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 07:28:18 -0500 > To: "'prr-talk@dsop.com'" > Subject: [PRR] Diamond Scale Turntable > > Does anyone have a current mailing address for Diamond Scale? I need a > turntable for Renovo (mandatory PRR content) and would like to order one > from them but I can't seem to find the correct address. > > Bob Gluckman > IOC Data Repository/Backup & Disaster Recovery Database > 8*222-2693 > (585) 422-2693 > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 08:10:54 -0600 I have heard the name "Chicken Bone Special" still being applied by AMTRAK employees when referring to coach passengers on the Silver Palm, Meteor, and Star trains. -----Original Message----- From: LAMAassoc@aol.com [mailto:LAMAassoc@aol.com] Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 7:34 PM To: prr2249@yahoo.com; MoPacHS@yahoogroups.com; PRR@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations In a message dated 2/3/03 4:53:16 PM, prr2249@yahoo.com writes: << What about equipment? Were there separate coaches for white and non-white passengers, and, if not, where cars in the south segregated on a sort of front of the bus/back of the bus basis? What about Pullman/sleeper/diner accommodations? I don't know if there was enough "colored" traffic to support separate cars but there had to be some travel by "colored" individuals that required Pullman services. How were such passengers handled? If separate coaches/sleepers were assigned to "colored" passengers were these marked in any way, either permanently or temporarily? If separate equipment was used, was it always assigned only to "coloreds", and not used for white passengers? >> My Pennsy experience started in 1960. In the North, in NYC and Philly and Chicago, I don't recall any major racial segregation. But, in Washington, DC and southern locations, there was. I was a NYC liberal and remember being shocked in the Pennsy engine house south of Cincinnati (in Kentucky?) in 1963 when I noticed the black US Mailman, in the blue-grey uniform and leather mail sack, eating his lunch by himself in a room off to the side and being told that that was the "Negro" locker room. If you are interested in this subject from a research point of view, you may want to check some recent black authors. I remember a review of a book by a black author telling about how, when a boy, he and his family went on vacation in the South. There were specific places that were not hostile to northern blacks and they planned the trips around these places. There also has to be some material from Randolph's Sleeping Car Porters, some of whom may have been more hostile to black first class passengers than white railroad employees. Both the Red Caps and Sleeping Car Porters groups were all black. Both jobs were unusual in that they paid well. I'm certain that there are books/articles that describe the situation before, during, and after the war. But, many black travelers had great coping skills and probably simply adapted their behavior to fit the surrounding discrimination. I do remember in NYC, a train that went south along the coast, interchanging a couple of times (RF&P to ACL to FEC?) and coming back north. The car cleaners at the time in NYC referred to it as the "Chicken Bone Special" because passengers in both directions routinely opted not to buy from the RR under their terms, but simply carried their own provisions, frequently, home fried chicken carried in brown paper bags. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] Diamond Scale Turntable Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 09:07:39 -0500 Diamond Scale's address is: Diamond Scale Construction 3742 W. Anderson Dr. Glendale, AZ 85308 602-504-8589 One of my customers recently made contact with them at this address. Frank Brua -----Original Message----- From: Gluckman, Robert To: 'prr-talk@dsop.com' Date: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 7:32 AM Subject: [PRR] Diamond Scale Turntable >Does anyone have a current mailing address for Diamond Scale? I need a >turntable for Renovo (mandatory PRR content) and would like to order one >from them but I can't seem to find the correct address. > >Bob Gluckman >IOC Data Repository/Backup & Disaster Recovery Database >8*222-2693 >(585) 422-2693 > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:06:44 -0500 If you ever had the task of cleaning the interior of a train at Sunnyside that came from Miami, you would very quickly learn where that name came from, believe me! -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Cadwell, Marvin L Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 9:11 AM To: 'LAMAassoc@aol.com'; prr2249@yahoo.com; MoPacHS@yahoogroups.com; PRR@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations I have heard the name "Chicken Bone Special" still being applied by AMTRAK employees when referring to coach passengers on the Silver Palm, Meteor, and Star trains. -----Original Message----- From: LAMAassoc@aol.com [mailto:LAMAassoc@aol.com] Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 7:34 PM To: prr2249@yahoo.com; MoPacHS@yahoogroups.com; PRR@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Segregation and Passenger Accomodations In a message dated 2/3/03 4:53:16 PM, prr2249@yahoo.com writes: << What about equipment? Were there separate coaches for white and non-white passengers, and, if not, where cars in the south segregated on a sort of front of the bus/back of the bus basis? What about Pullman/sleeper/diner accommodations? I don't know if there was enough "colored" traffic to support separate cars but there had to be some travel by "colored" individuals that required Pullman services. How were such passengers handled? If separate coaches/sleepers were assigned to "colored" passengers were these marked in any way, either permanently or temporarily? If separate equipment was used, was it always assigned only to "coloreds", and not used for white passengers? >> My Pennsy experience started in 1960. In the North, in NYC and Philly and Chicago, I don't recall any major racial segregation. But, in Washington, DC and southern locations, there was. I was a NYC liberal and remember being shocked in the Pennsy engine house south of Cincinnati (in Kentucky?) in 1963 when I noticed the black US Mailman, in the blue-grey uniform and leather mail sack, eating his lunch by himself in a room off to the side and being told that that was the "Negro" locker room. If you are interested in this subject from a research point of view, you may want to check some recent black authors. I remember a review of a book by a black author telling about how, when a boy, he and his family went on vacation in the South. There were specific places that were not hostile to northern blacks and they planned the trips around these places. There also has to be some material from Randolph's Sleeping Car Porters, some of whom may have been more hostile to black first class passengers than white railroad employees. Both the Red Caps and Sleeping Car Porters groups were all black. Both jobs were unusual in that they paid well. I'm certain that there are books/articles that describe the situation before, during, and after the war. But, many black travelers had great coping skills and probably simply adapted their behavior to fit the surrounding discrimination. I do remember in NYC, a train that went south along the coast, interchanging a couple of times (RF&P to ACL to FEC?) and coming back north. The car cleaners at the time in NYC referred to it as the "Chicken Bone Special" because passengers in both directions routinely opted not to buy from the RR under their terms, but simply carried their own provisions, frequently, home fried chicken carried in brown paper bags. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 08:53:35 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" > In a message dated 2/3/03 10:07:09 PM Central Standard Time, > abbuchan1@comcast.net writes: > > << My experience with taconite pellet color is more of a dirty dusty > grayish brown-red with a subtle hint of blue-violet maybe. > >> > > That is about the color of a few pellets I picked up in the Wisconsin > Central repair shop from an Ortner hopper . > > Bob Zoeller > There are a lot of these pellets on the roadbed of the Oil Creek and Titusville (ex-PRR) if anyone in the western Penna area wants some. I picked up a bunch (don't have any idea what I'll do with them) at the Drake Well Station area. Don Harper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Sam Rea Line Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:13:03 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CC5F.AA42253A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Listers, Could someone tell me the Keystone issue that had the plan for the never built Sam Rea line over the Alleghenies. Thanks in advance. Chris Chany ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CC5F.AA42253A Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Listers,
 
Could someone tell me the Keystone issue that had the plan for the never built Sam Rea line over the Alleghenies.
 
 
Thanks in advance.
 
Chris Chany
------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CC5F.AA42253A-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 10:50:47 -0500 From: "Charles Ring, W3NU" Subject: [PRR] discrimination - employees Another kind of discrimination, among employees and not just racial.. It's well known that black railroad and Pullman employees were limited to a few low-status jobs, but something that is not so well known is discrimination done via Freemasonry at management level on the PRR (and other railroads?). I remember my father talking about it only once, and last year I was surprised to see it documented at the Altoona museum - "To get ahead on the railroad one was expected to be a Protestant and a Mason", and "I could do something for you but you wear the wrong ring" (Knights of Columbus rather than Masonic). This neatly locked out Catholics, blacks, women, and anyone else who could not get admitted to a Masonic lodge or chose not to join. Two questions: 1. My father mentioned "the ______ Club" which one had to be a member of in order to be promoted to PRR management and which in turn was restricted to Masons. The name of the club slipped my mind long ago but it was a name clearly related to railroading. Does anyone know it? 2. How typical was this among railroads? I know that Freemasonry was very widely used as a basis for preferment and discrimination in business, but did the PRR and/or other railroads stand out in this? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 09:48:44 -0600 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] PRR segregated equipment Hello, everyone, As a follow-up to "Jim Crow" cars on the PRR, the PRR Passenger Equipment Register effective March 1, 1916 indicates two groups of such cars and their usual assigned areas. Class MP-54 (non-electrified) coaches #463-474, under the "special fittings" column, were listed as "partition cars." They are assigned to the Baltimore Division, the Maryland Division, and one to the Pope's Creek line. While no expert, I recall as a kid in pre-civil rights Baltimore that Maryland had many "southern style" segregation practices and this appears to be one example. There were also a few misc. P-class and O- class wooden passenger cars listed as "partition" cars. Also the NYP&N section (a separate part of the equipment register) lists five P-class cars which, in the "special fittings" column, are listed as "Jim Crow." They were assigned to Philly-Cape Charles trains. George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] discrimination - employees Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:23:19 -0500 Charles, Graduating from Princeton didn't hurt either. The New York Central favored folks who wore the other ring (Knights of Columbus). Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Ring, W3NU" To: "PRR Talk" Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 10:50 AM Subject: [PRR] discrimination - employees > Another kind of discrimination, among employees and not just racial.. > > It's well known that black railroad and Pullman employees were limited > to a few low-status jobs, but something that is not so well known is > discrimination done via Freemasonry at management level on the PRR (and > other railroads?). I remember my father talking about it only once, and > last year I was surprised to see it documented at the Altoona museum - > "To get ahead on the railroad one was expected to be a Protestant and a > Mason", and "I could do something for you but you wear the wrong ring" > (Knights of Columbus rather than Masonic). This neatly locked out > Catholics, blacks, women, and anyone else who could not get admitted to > a Masonic lodge or chose not to join. > > Two questions: > > 1. My father mentioned "the ______ Club" which one had to be a member > of in order to be promoted to PRR management and which in turn was > restricted to Masons. The name of the club slipped my mind long ago but > it was a name clearly related to railroading. Does anyone know it? > > 2. How typical was this among railroads? I know that Freemasonry was > very widely used as a basis for preferment and discrimination in > business, but did the PRR and/or other railroads stand out in this? > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:23:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic I scooped up two coffee cans full of the red ore that is still all over the place at the (now closed) ore docks in South Philly. I'm thinking of running it through some screens to get the dirt out and using it as a load in the ore cars. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 11:29:30 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] discrimination - employees Greetings to Charles, Jerry and the List: This is a subject that's barely been touched. I'm delighted to hear that someone is reading the panels in the Altoona exhibits. As the historian for that project, I found much more on this topic than could have ever been used in the displays. As part of that research, I deconstructed all PRR entries in the 1940 edition of "Who's Who of Railroading" to trace the background, affiliations, and denomonational preferences of PRR executives. As expected, I found that freemasonry was common among them. One of the biggest centers for this activity was the Jaffa Shrine/Mosque in Altoona, where membership was the key to advancement in PRR management. Even more interesting was the fact that most PRR management types, including many who came up through the ranks of Altoona, were Presbyterians or Episcopalians. In other words, members of church denominations that were (1) Protestant, (2) heavily populated with Anglo-Saxons (English, Welsh, and Scotch-Irish), and (3) politically conservative, which also neatly fit the pattern of Republican political affiliation that was necessary to rise in the PRR hierarchy. What all of this this says is that, without explicitly saying so, PRR was able to set up a system that limited opportunities for advancement, discriminating against blacks, women, Jews, Catholics, and Protestants who weren't "in line" (evangelicals such as Baptists were probably too vocal about their faith for the cultured Main Line bluebloods, and Lutherans may have been uncomfortably close to Catholic traditions for PRR). This pattern did not prevail on all railroads. The Milwaukee Road, for example, was known as a "Catholic" railroad, in which key leaders were of that faith and promoted into management those who went to the same churches as they did. New York Central did not hesitate to promote Catholics, Irish or otherwise, and of course, Al Perlman was a Jew who became its president. No surprise that Penn Central had troubles at the top: Being Jewish, Perlman was not welcome in Philadelphia or its social clubs; being a Democrat (supposedly with ties to the Johnson Administration), Stuart Saunders was not exactly old-money Main Line aristocracy; only David Bevan had the right club memberships and affiliations from the gitgo. Is it any wonder that the three didn't get along? I don't believe that PRR explicitly discriminated against blacks in train-service employment but rather, accomplished the same end by not challenging union traditions that barred blacks. I have yet to meet anyone who can verify that PRR ever employed a black engineman. Civil Rights legislation probably came along too late for the effect to trickle down into the locomotive cab by the time PRR expired on 2/1/68. Would be interested to learn otherwise from any ex-employees. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore (color) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:57:02 -0600 Hi All. I too, have some iron ore samples. Mine were obtained back in the 1960's while on a trip up to Northern Michigan. DM&IR territory. I have 3 little film canisters full. (Remember the metal film canisters?). They are all shades of red, one almost pink, one dark red - almost magenta. Of course, being in MI, may or may not be applicable to PRR. Happy Rails! Morgan Bilbo, Ferroequinologist, PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:07:08 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] discrimination - employees --part1_44.2d3c6577.2b714d3c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/4/2003 9:57:54 AM Central Standard Time, charlesr@infonline.net writes: > How typical was this among railroads? I know that Freemasonry was > very widely used as a basis for preferment and discrimination in > business, but did the PRR and/or other railroads stand out in this? > We're getting way OT here, but... I don't know about freemasonry, but I remember the father of my dad's business partner was told at his Rock Island retirement dinner that he was a great employee and if he hadn't been Jewish he would have really risen high in his 45 years with the road. He wasn't Jewish. Bob Zoeller --part1_44.2d3c6577.2b714d3c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/4/20= 03 9:57:54 AM Central Standard Time, charlesr@infonline.net writes:


How typical was this among=20= railroads? I know that Freemasonry was
very widely used as a basis for preferment and discrimination in
business, but did the PRR and/or other railroads stand out in this?


We're getting way OT here, but... I  don't know about freemasonry,=20= but I remember the father of my dad's business partner was told at his Rock=20= Island retirement dinner that he was a great employee and if he hadn't been=20= Jewish he would have really risen high in his 45 years with the road.  = He wasn't Jewish.

Bob Zoeller --part1_44.2d3c6577.2b714d3c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:59:34 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona - and Strasburg and the Northumberland From: "M. E Allen" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_4aad.46d4.4b74 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gentlemen, Throwing in my own slightly belated two cents or so here - It wasn't so much that Judge Fullam wanted the collection scrapped as the really screwed up records that the Trustee had that merely showed the collection as X-many locomotives stored unserviceable. What I believe the Judge did was authorize the sale for scrap of unserviceable power as a source of cash. The Trustee's rep I was working with was not familiar with the railroad (he was a finance type - and a very competent one) and he had no idea that there were several steam locomotives squirreled away. To his credit once he knew what the problem was he recognized that the value as a collection was probably higher than as scrap and the deal with the state became possible. As for the screwed up records the question of "What do we do with those old engines?" came up many times after the transfer (as late as 1980!!) and I had a canned "We gave them to the state and you got from under Y-many dollars of back taxes" answer. Usually at this point I also had to explain again that: 1, since they did not own the Long Bridge over the Potomac the couldn't sell it; and, 2, that they should stop paying property taxes on Exchange Place because it hadn't been there for 15 years. Mike Allen ----__JNP_000_4aad.46d4.4b74 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gentlemen,
 
Throwing in my own slightly belated two cents or so here -
 
        It wasn't so much that = Judge=20 Fullam wanted the collection scrapped as the really screwed up records= that=20 the Trustee had that merely showed the collection as X-many locomotives = stored=20 unserviceable. What I believe the Judge did was authorize the sale for = scrap of=20 unserviceable power as a source of cash. The Trustee's rep I was working = with=20 was not familiar with the railroad (he was a finance type - and a very = competent=20 one) and he had no idea that there were several steam locomotives = squirreled=20 away. To his credit once he knew what the problem was he recognized that = the=20 value as a collection was probably higher than as scrap and the deal with = the=20 state became possible.
 
As for the screwed up records the question of "What do we do with = those old=20 engines?" came up many times after the transfer (as late as 1980!!) and I = had a=20 canned "We gave them to the state and you got from under Y-many dollars of = back=20 taxes" answer. Usually at this point I also had to explain again that: 1, = since=20 they did not own the Long Bridge over the Potomac the couldn't sell it; and= , 2,=20 that they should stop paying property taxes on Exchange Place because it = hadn't=20 been there for 15 years.
 
 
Mike Allen   
----__JNP_000_4aad.46d4.4b74-- ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:34:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic Thanks for the tip! Maybe I won't be using the ore after all. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:21:30 -0600 Watch out! This ore is magnetic, and will affect uncouplers, magnets in model locomotives, and possibly other electrical devices. I'm not sure any magnetic material should be used on model railroads. -----Original Message----- From: zootowerprr@webtv.net [mailto:zootowerprr@webtv.net] Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 10:23 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic I scooped up two coffee cans full of the red ore that is still all over the place at the (now closed) ore docks in South Philly. I'm thinking of running it through some screens to get the dirt out and using it as a load in the ore cars. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] discrimination - employees Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:19:04 -0500 When I was Night Assistant Foreman at Chicago's 59th St. Enginehouse in 1963 we had segregated locker rooms. Black employees outnumbered whites about 3 to 1 as I recall and they had their own locker room/welfare building located about 100 feet south of the roundhouse (i.e. an outbuilding). I don't recall whether there were enough lockers in the roundhouse to accommodate all of the employees or not. I suspect several guys had more than one locker in use in both facilities. If women had been hired there, I have no clue where they would have changed clothes. I don't ever recall in my 10 years of PRR management any discussion of managers religion. I do know that most, if not all of the lower level supervisors (up to and including General Foreman) were promoted from the ranks and the "ranks" were heavily of Irish, Italian and Polish persuasion. Religion, freemasonry, and race were seldom, if ever, discussed. Now if you want to talk Moose Club, VFW, etc. there were a LOT of members there! WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Gregg Mahlkov Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 11:23 AM To: Charles Ring, W3NU; PRR Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] discrimination - employees Charles, Graduating from Princeton didn't hurt either. The New York Central favored folks who wore the other ring (Knights of Columbus). Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Ring, W3NU" To: "PRR Talk" Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 10:50 AM Subject: [PRR] discrimination - employees > Another kind of discrimination, among employees and not just racial.. > > It's well known that black railroad and Pullman employees were limited > to a few low-status jobs, but something that is not so well known is > discrimination done via Freemasonry at management level on the PRR > (and other railroads?). I remember my father talking about it only > once, and last year I was surprised to see it documented at the > Altoona museum - "To get ahead on the railroad one was expected to be > a Protestant and a Mason", and "I could do something for you but you > wear the wrong ring" (Knights of Columbus rather than Masonic). This > neatly locked out Catholics, blacks, women, and anyone else who could > not get admitted to a Masonic lodge or chose not to join. > > Two questions: > > 1. My father mentioned "the ______ Club" which one had to be a member > of in order to be promoted to PRR management and which in turn was > restricted to Masons. The name of the club slipped my mind long ago > but it was a name clearly related to railroading. Does anyone know it? > > 2. How typical was this among railroads? I know that Freemasonry was > very widely used as a basis for preferment and discrimination in > business, but did the PRR and/or other railroads stand out in this? > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 13:15:49 -0500 From: "Charles Ring, W3NU" Subject: Re: [PRR] discrimination - employees Bill Volkmer wrote: > When I was Night Assistant Foreman at Chicago's 59th St. Enginehouse in > 1963 we had segregated locker rooms. Black employees outnumbered whites > about 3 to 1 as I recall and they had their own locker room/welfare > building located about 100 feet south of the roundhouse (i.e. an > outbuilding). I don't recall whether there were enough lockers in the > roundhouse to accommodate all of the employees or not. I suspect > several guys had more than one locker in use in both facilities. If > women had been hired there, I have no clue where they would have changed > clothes. > > I don't ever recall in my 10 years of PRR management any discussion of > managers religion. I do know that most, if not all of the lower level > supervisors (up to and including General Foreman) were promoted from the > ranks and the "ranks" were heavily of Irish, Italian and Polish > persuasion. Religion, freemasonry, and race were seldom, if ever, > discussed. Now if you want to talk Moose Club, VFW, etc. there were a > LOT of members there! > WDV > My father was a yardmaster, which I understand was at the highest level where one is a union member and not management, and thus reachable by non-Masons. Was a General Foreman at the same level? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:20:27 -0600 Hi All! Agreed, but: IMHO if the ore is glued in a "removable" manner for placement in the ore car, then the "magnetism" will not be a problem. Plus, the added weight is well needed. i.e., removable manner means like the "loads" now available, that can be inserted and removed at will! Happy Rails! Morgan Bilbo, Ferroequinologist ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: ; Sent: Tuesday, 04 February, 2003 11:21 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic > Watch out! This ore is magnetic, and will affect uncouplers, magnets in model locomotives, and possibly other electrical devices. I'm not sure any magnetic material should be used on model railroads....................... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] discrimination - employees Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:35:53 -0500 No, Gang Foreman was the highest unionized level (in the Mechanical Dept.) The (some) Gang Foremen had their own union and it was not in any way affiliated with the AFL or CIO. I personally was a Gang Foreman and never a part of a Union. Asst. Foreman, Foreman and Gen. Foreman were non-union in the M of E Dept. Foreman in MW WAS unionized. Like I said before I don't remember anybody keeping score so I can't off the top of my head site any ferinstances on either side of the equation. -----Original Message----- From: Charles Ring, W3NU [mailto:charlesr@infonline.net] Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 1:16 PM To: Bill Volkmer; PRR Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] discrimination - employees Bill Volkmer wrote: > When I was Night Assistant Foreman at Chicago's 59th St. Enginehouse > in 1963 we had segregated locker rooms. Black employees outnumbered > whites about 3 to 1 as I recall and they had their own locker > room/welfare building located about 100 feet south of the roundhouse > (i.e. an outbuilding). I don't recall whether there were enough > lockers in the roundhouse to accommodate all of the employees or not. > I suspect several guys had more than one locker in use in both > facilities. If women had been hired there, I have no clue where they > would have changed clothes. > > I don't ever recall in my 10 years of PRR management any discussion of > managers religion. I do know that most, if not all of the lower level > supervisors (up to and including General Foreman) were promoted from > the ranks and the "ranks" were heavily of Irish, Italian and Polish > persuasion. Religion, freemasonry, and race were seldom, if ever, > discussed. Now if you want to talk Moose Club, VFW, etc. there were a > LOT of members there! WDV > My father was a yardmaster, which I understand was at the highest level where one is a union member and not management, and thus reachable by non-Masons. Was a General Foreman at the same level? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:39:15 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Probably not on PRR at Cincinnati In a message dated 2/4/03 1:11:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > My Pennsy experience started in 1960. In the North, in NYC and Philly and > Chicago, I don't recall any major racial segregation. But, in Washington, > DC > and southern locations, there was. I was a NYC liberal and remember being > shocked in the Pennsy engine house south of Cincinnati (in Kentucky?) in > 1963 > when I noticed the black US Mailman, in the blue-grey uniform and leather > mail sack, eating his lunch by himself in a room off to the side and being > told that that was the "Negro" locker room. That sort of thing was probably the norm, by law or still by custom, in 1963. However, I have a problem with a "Pennsy engine house south of Cincinnati", as the PRR had no property south of the Ohio River (in Kentucky). PRR's Cincinnati engine house facility was at Pendleton OH, a section of Cincinnati. And passenger power was serviced at CUT, also north of the river Possibilities: 1. you were on one of those transfers to L&N DeCoursey (KY) which you've described earlier. 2. you were on a transfer to SR Ludlow KY or C&O Stevens Yard Silver Grove KY (neither very likely) 2. you could be describing a situation in Louisville KY -- but by 1963 the PRR engine facility had moved north of the river to Jeffersonville (IN) Yard. When I ask older locals here in Louisville about segregation on the railroads in that era, I often get some vague statement that Kentucky wasn't serious about segregation by then. However, I see the pictures of L&N's "divided" combines on the locals, and suspect it was serious enough for black citizens. One more comment -- most of the black men I worked with in the 1960's (in the north) were very careful not to offend their white co-workers. Their rule seemed to be that good jobs were worth being considerate of white sensibilities. In retrospect, I think it took a lot of self-discipline for them to succeed, but they did it and took care of their families. I think this is a story not often enough repeated. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:39:15 EST Subject: [PRR] Probably not on PRR at Cincinnati --part1_1d4.19cfced.2b7162d3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/4/03 1:11:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > My Pennsy experience started in 1960. In the North, in NYC and Philly and > Chicago, I don't recall any major racial segregation. But, in Washington, > DC > and southern locations, there was. I was a NYC liberal and remember being > shocked in the Pennsy engine house south of Cincinnati (in Kentucky?) in > 1963 > when I noticed the black US Mailman, in the blue-grey uniform and leather > mail sack, eating his lunch by himself in a room off to the side and being > told that that was the "Negro" locker room. That sort of thing was probably the norm, by law or still by custom, in 1963. However, I have a problem with a "Pennsy engine house south of Cincinnati", as the PRR had no property south of the Ohio River (in Kentucky). PRR's Cincinnati engine house facility was at Pendleton OH, a section of Cincinnati. And passenger power was serviced at CUT, also north of the river Possibilities: 1. you were on one of those transfers to L&N DeCoursey (KY) which you've described earlier. 2. you were on a transfer to SR Ludlow KY or C&O Stevens Yard Silver Grove KY (neither very likely) 2. you could be describing a situation in Louisville KY -- but by 1963 the PRR engine facility had moved north of the river to Jeffersonville (IN) Yard. When I ask older locals here in Louisville about segregation on the railroads in that era, I often get some vague statement that Kentucky wasn't serious about segregation by then. However, I see the pictures of L&N's "divided" combines on the locals, and suspect it was serious enough for black citizens. One more comment -- most of the black men I worked with in the 1960's (in the north) were very careful not to offend their white co-workers. Their rule seemed to be that good jobs were worth being considerate of white sensibilities. In retrospect, I think it took a lot of self-discipline for them to succeed, but they did it and took care of their families. I think this is a story not often enough repeated. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_1d4.19cfced.2b7162d3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/4/03 1:11:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


My Pennsy experience started in 1960. In the North, in NYC and Philly and
Chicago, I don't recall any major racial segregation. But, in Washington, DC
and southern locations, there was. I was a NYC liberal and remember being
shocked in the Pennsy engine house south of Cincinnati (in Kentucky?) in 1963
when I noticed the black US Mailman, in the blue-grey uniform and leather
mail sack, eating his lunch by himself in a room off to the side and being
told that that was the "Negro" locker room.


That sort of thing was probably the norm, by law or still by custom, in 1963.  However, I have a problem with a "Pennsy engine house south of Cincinnati", as the PRR had no property south of the Ohio River (in Kentucky).  PRR's Cincinnati engine house facility was at Pendleton OH, a section of Cincinnati.  And passenger power was serviced at CUT, also north of the river

Possibilities:
1. you were on one of those transfers to L&N DeCoursey (KY) which you've described earlier.
2.  you were on a transfer to SR Ludlow KY or C&O Stevens Yard Silver Grove KY (neither very likely)
2. you could be describing a situation in Louisville KY -- but by 1963 the PRR engine facility had moved north of the river to Jeffersonville (IN) Yard.

When I ask older locals here in Louisville about segregation on the railroads in that era, I often get some vague statement that Kentucky wasn't serious about segregation by then.  However, I see the pictures of L&N's "divided" combines on the locals, and suspect it was serious enough for black citizens.

One more comment -- most of the black men I worked with in the 1960's (in the north) were very careful not to offend their white co-workers.  Their rule seemed to be that good jobs were worth being considerate of white sensibilities.  In retrospect, I think it took a lot of self-discipline for them to succeed, but they did it and took care of their families.  I think this is a story not often enough repeated.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_1d4.19cfced.2b7162d3_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:23:34 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] Segregation, etc. --0-538388526-1044386614=:48598 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks to all who responded to my questions, especially those who recounted personal experiences. While not only interesting from an historical standpoint, there is certainly some material here that could contribute to more accurate modeling of the era. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-538388526-1044386614=:48598 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Thanks to all who responded to my questions, especially those who recounted personal experiences.  While not only interesting from an historical standpoint, there is certainly some material here that could contribute to more accurate modeling of the era.  Ron


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-538388526-1044386614=:48598-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] discrimination - employees Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 15:31:19 -0500 Bill, As a traffic department sales rep, I was a system employee, and as such I can vouch that while there were folks of many religious persuasions in the department, those of the "right" denominations and Freemasons were the ones "on the circuit" for promotion. I definitely recall about the masons as I was asked to join. Of interest, the PRR was the first railroad to hire an African-American Sales Representative. He was assigned to the System Passenger Sales department in Philadelphia and his "territory" was the professional sports teams. Another interesting sidelight, PRR sought Native Americans as employees. The Stationmaster at Baltimore was a full-blooded Indian ( I can't remember his tribe). Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Volkmer" To: "'Gregg Mahlkov'" ; "'Charles Ring, W3NU'" ; "'PRR Talk'" Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 1:19 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] discrimination - employees > When I was Night Assistant Foreman at Chicago's 59th St. Enginehouse in > 1963 we had segregated locker rooms. Black employees outnumbered whites > about 3 to 1 as I recall and they had their own locker room/welfare > building located about 100 feet south of the roundhouse (i.e. an > outbuilding). I don't recall whether there were enough lockers in the > roundhouse to accommodate all of the employees or not. I suspect > several guys had more than one locker in use in both facilities. If > women had been hired there, I have no clue where they would have changed > clothes. > > I don't ever recall in my 10 years of PRR management any discussion of > managers religion. I do know that most, if not all of the lower level > supervisors (up to and including General Foreman) were promoted from the > ranks and the "ranks" were heavily of Irish, Italian and Polish > persuasion. Religion, freemasonry, and race were seldom, if ever, > discussed. Now if you want to talk Moose Club, VFW, etc. there were a > LOT of members there! > WDV > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Gregg > Mahlkov > Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 11:23 AM > To: Charles Ring, W3NU; PRR Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] discrimination - employees > > > Charles, > > Graduating from Princeton didn't hurt either. The New York Central > favored folks who wore the other ring (Knights of Columbus). > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Charles Ring, W3NU" > To: "PRR Talk" > Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 10:50 AM > Subject: [PRR] discrimination - employees > > > > Another kind of discrimination, among employees and not just racial.. > > > > It's well known that black railroad and Pullman employees were limited > > > to a few low-status jobs, but something that is not so well known is > > discrimination done via Freemasonry at management level on the PRR > > (and other railroads?). I remember my father talking about it only > > once, and last year I was surprised to see it documented at the > > Altoona museum - "To get ahead on the railroad one was expected to be > > a Protestant and a Mason", and "I could do something for you but you > > wear the wrong ring" (Knights of Columbus rather than Masonic). This > > neatly locked out Catholics, blacks, women, and anyone else who could > > not get admitted to a Masonic lodge or chose not to join. > > > > Two questions: > > > > 1. My father mentioned "the ______ Club" which one had to be a member > > > of in order to be promoted to PRR management and which in turn was > > restricted to Masons. The name of the club slipped my mind long ago > > but it was a name clearly related to railroading. Does anyone know it? > > > > 2. How typical was this among railroads? I know that Freemasonry was > > very widely used as a basis for preferment and discrimination in > > business, but did the PRR and/or other railroads stand out in this? > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Doug Drew Subject: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 15:33:06 -0500 Just as an adjunct to Dan Cupper's post: Two of the Penn Central 'big three' were "outlanders" even to the component railroads of PC: Al Perlman was brought in to the NYC from the Rio Grande by Robert R. Young after the famous proxy fight where Young got control of the Central. Perlman was supposedly a 'crack' operating man and Young wanted to shake things up in the complacent Central management. While it may have been a losing cause (I've read that any profits Central made in its final years were coming from its Park Avenue real estate, not its railroad operations) Perlman streamlined the railroad with CTC installations, new yards and innovations such as the Flexi-Van, Central's answer to TrucTrain. I read recently in Classic Trains that Perlman found running a railroad the size of the NYC a bit more challenging than the little Rio Grande, and pulled a few operational boners in the process. Stuart Saunders was brought in by then PRR-president Jim Symes as his replacement, after Saunders was able to orchestrate the parallel merger of the Virginian and the Norfolk & Western as head of the N&W at that time. He came up through N&W's law department, as I remember. I believe Saunders was also the man who dieselized (sob) the Norfolk and Western -- no 'faith in steam', he. Symes brought him in over Alan Greenough or other very-qualified PRR men, in order to implement Symes obsession of reducing duplicate facilities and unnecessary competition by merging with the PRR's arch-rival to the north. Given that PRR controlled the N&W and that railroad was often used as a "farm team" to groom prospective PRR upper management, the same Protestant/Masonic criteria was probably in place in Roanoke. David Bevan, the financial guy of the three who invested the railroad's money in pipelines, amusement parks, shopping centers and the like rather than keeping up the railroad's physical plant and equipment, came up through the PRR's standard management path, I believe, and was probably both a Protestant and a Mason. -- Doug Drew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 15:53:37 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR So Stuart Saunders was responsible for killing steam on the N&W, demolishing Penn Station, and bringing about the end of both the PRR and the NYC. That's quite a resume' ! I wouldn't want to be holding his Life Insurance if he ever showed up at a railfan meet. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Doug Drew wrote: (in part) > Just as an adjunct to Dan Cupper's post: > > . . . > > Stuart Saunders was brought in by then PRR-president Jim Symes as > his replacement, after Saunders was able to orchestrate the parallel merger > of the Virginian and the Norfolk & Western as head of the N&W at that time. > He came up through N&W's law department, as I remember. I believe Saunders > was also the man who dieselized (sob) the Norfolk and Western -- no 'faith > in steam', he. Symes brought him in over Alan Greenough or other > very-qualified PRR men, in order to implement Symes obsession of reducing > duplicate facilities and unnecessary competition by merging with the PRR's > arch-rival to the north. Given that PRR controlled the N&W and that railroad > was often used as a "farm team" to groom prospective PRR upper management, > the same Protestant/Masonic criteria was probably in place in Roanoke. > > . . . > > -- Doug Drew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 16:15:43 -0500 Oooh, Andy, you're right, I forgot about Penn Station! I'll play the devil's advocate here and say, after seeing interior shots of Penn Station in its last days before the wrecking ball, I think I can understand why there wasn't a big hugamug about the station coming down. Boy, that place looked SHABBY inside, especially the concourse. And that godawful "modern" ticket booth -- were they TRYING to come up with something that utterly clashed with the dignified architecture of that main waiting room? Geez Louise, what were they THINKING? Was that a creation of Raymond Loewy and Associates, too? People didn't see the glory under the grime, just the general seediness of what the station had become. Did Broad Street station come down under Saunders, or was that under the Symes administration? I forget when that was demolished. I wonder if the plans to take down Penn Station were already underway when Saunders came to the PRR, and it was left to him and his winning ways with regulators and the like to make it happen... Maybe that's why it looked shabby, the 'modern' PRR management didn't give a damn about the station or its maintenance as they knew any maintenance would be money down the toilet once demolition began. Of course, after seeing the glorified bus station that replaced it, a lot of people probably had second thoughts. Anyone know what the status is of turning the old Post Office building across the street into the "new old" Penn Station? I saw one design with some kind of bizarre glass dome thing attached to one side of it (no, it looked nothing like the concourse 'train shed'), sort of defeated the purpose of attempting to recreate Penn Station, or at least to give the *feeling* of the way it was. Doug Drew > ---------- > From: Andrew S. Miller > Sent: Tuesday, February 4, 2003 3:53 PM > To: Doug Drew > Cc: 'PRR-Talk' > Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR > > So Stuart Saunders was responsible for killing steam on the N&W, > demolishing > Penn Station, and bringing about the end of both the PRR and the NYC. > That's > quite a resume' ! I wouldn't want to be holding his Life Insurance if he > ever > showed up at a railfan meet. > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > Doug Drew wrote: (in part) > > > Just as an adjunct to Dan Cupper's post: > > > > . . . > > > > Stuart Saunders was brought in by then PRR-president Jim Symes > as > > his replacement, after Saunders was able to orchestrate the parallel > merger > > of the Virginian and the Norfolk & Western as head of the N&W at that > time. > > He came up through N&W's law department, as I remember. I believe > Saunders > > was also the man who dieselized (sob) the Norfolk and Western -- no > 'faith > > in steam', he. Symes brought him in over Alan Greenough or other > > very-qualified PRR men, in order to implement Symes obsession of > reducing > > duplicate facilities and unnecessary competition by merging with the > PRR's > > arch-rival to the north. Given that PRR controlled the N&W and that > railroad > > was often used as a "farm team" to groom prospective PRR upper > management, > > the same Protestant/Masonic criteria was probably in place in Roanoke. > > > > . . . > > > > -- Doug Drew > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 16:49:21 -0500 List, Broad Street was long gone before Stu Saunders ever set foot on the property. I could comment further about the Penn Station, New York, fiasco, but I'm not sure who is still alive! I believe there were pockets lined on that one, especially since Madison Square Garden was built on the air rights. I seem to recall that some PRR folks got choice jobs with the "Garden" after the PC merger. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Drew" To: "Doug Drew" ; "'Andrew S. Miller'" Cc: "'PRR-Talk'" Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 4:15 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR > Oooh, Andy, you're right, I forgot about Penn Station! > > I'll play the devil's advocate here and say, after seeing interior shots of > Penn Station in its last days before the wrecking ball, I think I can > understand why there wasn't a big hugamug about the station coming down. > > Boy, that place looked SHABBY inside, especially the concourse. And that > godawful "modern" ticket booth -- were they TRYING to come up with something > that utterly clashed with the dignified architecture of that main waiting > room? Geez Louise, what were they THINKING? Was that a creation of Raymond > Loewy and Associates, too? > > People didn't see the glory under the grime, just the general seediness of > what the station had become. > > Did Broad Street station come down under Saunders, or was that under the > Symes administration? I forget when that was demolished. I wonder if the > plans to take down Penn Station were already underway when Saunders came to > the PRR, and it was left to him and his winning ways with regulators and the > like to make it happen... Maybe that's why it looked shabby, the 'modern' > PRR management didn't give a damn about the station or its maintenance as > they knew any maintenance would be money down the toilet once demolition > began. > > Of course, after seeing the glorified bus station that replaced it, a lot of > people probably had second thoughts. Anyone know what the status is of > turning the old Post Office building across the street into the "new old" > Penn Station? I saw one design with some kind of bizarre glass dome thing > attached to one side of it (no, it looked nothing like the concourse 'train > shed'), sort of defeated the purpose of attempting to recreate Penn Station, > or at least to give the *feeling* of the way it was. > > Doug Drew > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:23:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Segregation, etc. Thanks to all who responded to my questions, especially those who recounted personal experiences. While not only interesting from an historical standpoint, there is certainly some material here that could contribute to more accurate modeling of the era. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 16:59:58 -0500 (EST) From: Will Semanchuk-Enser Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR And the fact that PC owned the Rangers didn't have anything to do with it did it?? Wreck of the Penn Central has that nice fold out chart in it that shows all the pies the PC fingers were in. Who owned the Rangers before the merger...PRR or NYC?? Which company was the one that owned Six Flags before the merger or did that come about during the PC years?? Great Southwestern Corp or whatever it was called! On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: >List, > >Broad Street was long gone before Stu Saunders ever set foot on the >property. I could comment further about the Penn Station, New York, fiasco, >but I'm not sure who is still alive! I believe there were pockets lined on >that one, especially since Madison Square Garden was built on the air >rights. I seem to recall that some PRR folks got choice jobs with the >"Garden" after the PC merger. > >Gregg Mahlkov > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Doug Drew" >To: "Doug Drew" ; "'Andrew S. Miller'" > >Cc: "'PRR-Talk'" >Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 4:15 PM >Subject: RE: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR > > >> Oooh, Andy, you're right, I forgot about Penn Station! >> >> I'll play the devil's advocate here and say, after seeing interior shots >of >> Penn Station in its last days before the wrecking ball, I think I can >> understand why there wasn't a big hugamug about the station coming down. >> >> Boy, that place looked SHABBY inside, especially the concourse. And that >> godawful "modern" ticket booth -- were they TRYING to come up with >something >> that utterly clashed with the dignified architecture of that main waiting >> room? Geez Louise, what were they THINKING? Was that a creation of Raymond >> Loewy and Associates, too? >> >> People didn't see the glory under the grime, just the general seediness of >> what the station had become. >> >> Did Broad Street station come down under Saunders, or was that under the >> Symes administration? I forget when that was demolished. I wonder if the >> plans to take down Penn Station were already underway when Saunders came >to >> the PRR, and it was left to him and his winning ways with regulators and >the >> like to make it happen... Maybe that's why it looked shabby, the 'modern' >> PRR management didn't give a damn about the station or its maintenance as >> they knew any maintenance would be money down the toilet once demolition >> began. >> >> Of course, after seeing the glorified bus station that replaced it, a lot >of >> people probably had second thoughts. Anyone know what the status is of >> turning the old Post Office building across the street into the "new old" >> Penn Station? I saw one design with some kind of bizarre glass dome thing >> attached to one side of it (no, it looked nothing like the concourse >'train >> shed'), sort of defeated the purpose of attempting to recreate Penn >Station, >> or at least to give the *feeling* of the way it was. >> >> Doug Drew >> >> > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > Will Semanchuk-Enser Blue Moon Internet Corp General Manager www.bluemoon.net Internet Access & Web Hosting www.railfan.net Railfan Network Services ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John H. Wright" Subject: Re: [PRR] Sam Rea Line Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 21:53:54 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C2CC97.E8F9ACC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris, The Sam Rea Line was featured in the Summer 1986 issue ( Vol. 19 No. 2 ) Regards, John H. Wright, =20 Washington, England Websites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ and: = http://www.xclent.clara.net ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chany, Christopher=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:13 PM Subject: [PRR] Sam Rea Line Listers, Could someone tell me the Keystone issue that had the plan for the = never built Sam Rea line over the Alleghenies. Thanks in advance. Chris Chany ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C2CC97.E8F9ACC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Chris,
The Sam Rea Line was featured in the = Summer 1986=20 issue ( Vol. 19 No. 2 )
 
Regards,
         &n= bsp;    =20 John H. Wright,  =20
           &nb= sp;  =20 Washington,   England
Websites at:  http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/  =20 and:  http://www.xclent.clara.net
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Chany,=20 Christopher
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, = 2003 3:13=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Sam Rea = Line

Listers,
 
Could someone tell me the Keystone issue that had the plan = for the=20 never built Sam Rea line over the Alleghenies.
 
 
Thanks in advance.
 
Chris Chany
------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C2CC97.E8F9ACC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 16:07:13 -0600 Unfortunately, descrimination of the type covered in this thread still exists today, although it is much more subtle. They don't call it the "old boy" network for nothing! Preferences are still given to certain religions, colleges where one graduates, etc. The corporate world is littered with people who have progressed up the corporate ladder yet have very little to point to in terms of what they really accomplished. And, above a certain level, they need not even be responsible for their failures. I stop. This is a medium to discuss the Railroad, not the general ills of society. -----Original Message----- From: Gregg Mahlkov [mailto:mahlkov@gtcom.net] Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:49 PM To: Doug Drew; 'Andrew S. Miller'; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR List, Broad Street was long gone before Stu Saunders ever set foot on the property. I could comment further about the Penn Station, New York, fiasco, but I'm not sure who is still alive! I believe there were pockets lined on that one, especially since Madison Square Garden was built on the air rights. I seem to recall that some PRR folks got choice jobs with the "Garden" after the PC merger. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Drew" To: "Doug Drew" ; "'Andrew S. Miller'" Cc: "'PRR-Talk'" Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 4:15 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR > Oooh, Andy, you're right, I forgot about Penn Station! > > I'll play the devil's advocate here and say, after seeing interior shots of > Penn Station in its last days before the wrecking ball, I think I can > understand why there wasn't a big hugamug about the station coming down. > > Boy, that place looked SHABBY inside, especially the concourse. And that > godawful "modern" ticket booth -- were they TRYING to come up with something > that utterly clashed with the dignified architecture of that main waiting > room? Geez Louise, what were they THINKING? Was that a creation of Raymond > Loewy and Associates, too? > > People didn't see the glory under the grime, just the general seediness of > what the station had become. > > Did Broad Street station come down under Saunders, or was that under the > Symes administration? I forget when that was demolished. I wonder if the > plans to take down Penn Station were already underway when Saunders came to > the PRR, and it was left to him and his winning ways with regulators and the > like to make it happen... Maybe that's why it looked shabby, the 'modern' > PRR management didn't give a damn about the station or its maintenance as > they knew any maintenance would be money down the toilet once demolition > began. > > Of course, after seeing the glorified bus station that replaced it, a lot of > people probably had second thoughts. Anyone know what the status is of > turning the old Post Office building across the street into the "new old" > Penn Station? I saw one design with some kind of bizarre glass dome thing > attached to one side of it (no, it looked nothing like the concourse 'train > shed'), sort of defeated the purpose of attempting to recreate Penn Station, > or at least to give the *feeling* of the way it was. > > Doug Drew > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Sam Rea Line Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:09:53 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CC9A.05A67E64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Gosh, I thought it was closer to the present than that. Thanks, Chris -----Original Message----- From: John H. Wright [mailto:johnhwright@xclent.clara.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 4:54 PM To: Chany, Christopher; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Sam Rea Line Chris, The Sam Rea Line was featured in the Summer 1986 issue ( Vol. 19 No. 2 ) Regards, John H. Wright, Washington, England Websites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ and: http://www.xclent.clara.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Chany, Christopher To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:13 PM Subject: [PRR] Sam Rea Line Listers, Could someone tell me the Keystone issue that had the plan for the never built Sam Rea line over the Alleghenies. Thanks in advance. Chris Chany ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CC9A.05A67E64 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Gosh,  I thought it was closer to the present than that. 
 
Thanks,
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: John H. Wright [mailto:johnhwright@xclent.clara.co.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 4:54 PM
To: Chany, Christopher; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Sam Rea Line

Chris,
The Sam Rea Line was featured in the Summer 1986 issue ( Vol. 19 No. 2 )
 
Regards,
               John H. Wright,  
               Washington,   England
Websites at:  http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/   and:  http://www.xclent.clara.net
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:13 PM
Subject: [PRR] Sam Rea Line

Listers,
 
Could someone tell me the Keystone issue that had the plan for the never built Sam Rea line over the Alleghenies.
 
 
Thanks in advance.
 
Chris Chany
------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CC9A.05A67E64-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:11:42 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR In a message dated 2/4/03 3:28:03 PM, DDrew@channing-bete.com writes: << I'll play the devil's advocate here and say, after seeing interior shots of Penn Station in its last days before the wrecking ball, I think I can understand why there wasn't a big hugamug about the station coming down. ********************** Did Broad Street station come down under Saunders, or was that under the Symes administration? I forget when that was demolished. I wonder if the plans to take down Penn Station were already underway when Saunders came to the PRR, and it was left to him and his winning ways with regulators and the like to make it happen... Maybe that's why it looked shabby, the 'modern' PRR management didn't give a damn about the station or its maintenance as they knew any maintenance would be money down the toilet once demolition began. >> In fact, I had an office on the Northwest corner of old Penn Station that overlooked the Turf Bar on the North side and the PO building on the West. Our section of offices had a men's room that had the most interesting shower I had ever used. It had multiple shower heads, maybe 5. I "lived" in those offices several times, most often, in the threat of a labor problem. But, once, because of the NYC blackout. I had gone to Philly for a staff meeting and was on my way back and got as far as Newark, the day of the NYC blackout. I was able to get on a diesel switcher the crossed into NYC. The station, which was under destruction at that time (would have been 11/65), was pitch black, at least the lower level platforms were. We were lucky, however, that the construction crews had their own lighting systems (they worked around the clock to minimize interference with Pennsy & LIRR traffic during the day) and much of the building was lighted. I was told that in order to get into the station, MoW folks had to move and spike switches because there was no juice to do it. The main floor of the station had a number of automobiles on display and their lights were turned on. There were some giant searchlights on the 8th Avenue side and someone had moved them from skyward to parallel to the street and just aimed them uptown. Thus, for most of the blackout, Penn Station was one of the few islands of light in NYC. There were commuters bunking in everywhere they could find a space. My wife had just given birth to our first daughter and was safe and sound at Roosevelt Hospital. The 'phones worked and I was able to talk to her and call my worried parents in California. I walked around a while and then went back to the office which I had all to myself. There were stowed fold up beds and clean sheets and blankets sealed in brown paper packages. There were also some standard Pennsy lanterns with the big nine volt batteries. I got some food from the dinning car services down in the guts of the station and, in the morning, enjoyed the shower. So, the destruction of Penn Station in NYC was well underway in November, 1965. I do also remember moving the office out of the Station to the building immediately south of Penn Sta. That was before I left in Oct, 1966. I never went back although, I did visit with some colleagues at the Penn Central offices in or near Grand Central. I'm not sure which station was Broad Street Station. There was the one in North Philly (North Braod?) where they Pennsy and PRSL stopped. And, Suburban Station downtown. There may have been a station above Suburban that might have been called Broad Street, but, if so, it was gone in 1956. The Pennsy headquarters had moved into Penn Center Plaza by, at least, 1960. These buildings were constructed in the air rights over Suburban Station and whatever had been demolished at ground level. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 17:51:09 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Sam Rea Line --part1_1cf.1a3032b.2b719ddd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Chris and others, You are thinking of the article "Penn Station and the Sam Rea Line" by Ed Waytel in the Spring 1999 (Vol. 32, No. 1) issue of "The Keystone". In the article, Ed forms a scenario of what may have happened if the Pennsy had used the funds for building Penn Station and the PRR Hudsin River Tunnels to build the Sam Rea Line instead. Many of the details from the previous article about the Sam Rea Line were repeated. Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_1cf.1a3032b.2b719ddd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Chris and others,

You are thinking of the article "Penn Station and the Sam Rea Line" by Ed Wa= ytel in the Spring 1999 (Vol. 32, No. 1) issue of "The Keystone".  In t= he article, Ed forms a scenario of what may have happened if the Pennsy had=20= used the funds for building Penn Station and the PRR Hudsin River Tunnels to= build the Sam Rea Line instead.  Many of the details from the previous= article about the Sam Rea Line were repeated.

Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_1cf.1a3032b.2b719ddd_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:12:25 -0500 Will, They ALL belonged to the PRR before the merger. Want to hear the strangest part of all? PRR purchased the Arvida Corp., the real estate company in Florida that owned the Boca Raton golf club, through the Six Flags-Great Southwest subsidiary. I retired from the Apalachicola Northern Railroad, a subsidiary of St Joe Paper Company, after it sold the paper business and became a real estate company.. St. Joe Company promptly purchased the same Arvida Corp. and is now building a 1500 unit high end beach community between my house and Port Saint Joe! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Will Semanchuk-Enser" To: "Gregg Mahlkov" Cc: "Doug Drew" ; "'Andrew S. Miller'" ; Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 4:59 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR > > > And the fact that PC owned the Rangers didn't have anything to do with it > did it?? > > Wreck of the Penn Central has that nice fold out chart in it that shows > all the pies the PC fingers were in. Who owned the Rangers before the > merger...PRR or NYC?? > > Which company was the one that owned Six Flags before the merger or did > that come about during the PC years?? Great Southwestern Corp or whatever > it was called! > > On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > > >List, > > > >Broad Street was long gone before Stu Saunders ever set foot on the > >property. I could comment further about the Penn Station, New York, fiasco, > >but I'm not sure who is still alive! I believe there were pockets lined on > >that one, especially since Madison Square Garden was built on the air > >rights. I seem to recall that some PRR folks got choice jobs with the > >"Garden" after the PC merger. > > > >Gregg Mahlkov > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Doug Drew" > >To: "Doug Drew" ; "'Andrew S. Miller'" > > > >Cc: "'PRR-Talk'" > >Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 4:15 PM > >Subject: RE: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR > > > > > >> Oooh, Andy, you're right, I forgot about Penn Station! > >> > >> I'll play the devil's advocate here and say, after seeing interior shots > >of > >> Penn Station in its last days before the wrecking ball, I think I can > >> understand why there wasn't a big hugamug about the station coming down. > >> > >> Boy, that place looked SHABBY inside, especially the concourse. And that > >> godawful "modern" ticket booth -- were they TRYING to come up with > >something > >> that utterly clashed with the dignified architecture of that main waiting > >> room? Geez Louise, what were they THINKING? Was that a creation of Raymond > >> Loewy and Associates, too? > >> > >> People didn't see the glory under the grime, just the general seediness of > >> what the station had become. > >> > >> Did Broad Street station come down under Saunders, or was that under the > >> Symes administration? I forget when that was demolished. I wonder if the > >> plans to take down Penn Station were already underway when Saunders came > >to > >> the PRR, and it was left to him and his winning ways with regulators and > >the > >> like to make it happen... Maybe that's why it looked shabby, the 'modern' > >> PRR management didn't give a damn about the station or its maintenance as > >> they knew any maintenance would be money down the toilet once demolition > >> began. > >> > >> Of course, after seeing the glorified bus station that replaced it, a lot > >of > >> people probably had second thoughts. Anyone know what the status is of > >> turning the old Post Office building across the street into the "new old" > >> Penn Station? I saw one design with some kind of bizarre glass dome thing > >> attached to one side of it (no, it looked nothing like the concourse > >'train > >> shed'), sort of defeated the purpose of attempting to recreate Penn > >Station, > >> or at least to give the *feeling* of the way it was. > >> > >> Doug Drew > >> > >> > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > Will Semanchuk-Enser Blue Moon Internet Corp General Manager > www.bluemoon.net Internet Access & Web Hosting > www.railfan.net Railfan Network Services > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 18:22:31 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore (color) Morgan, Hmm, Could you possibly be thinking of northern Minnesota? The Missabe Road doesn't run any further east than Superior, Wisconsin. (Well, Itasca Jct, WI, actually) Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 20:31:48 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR --part1_1ef.100f812.2b71c384_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What's a Freemason? I'm assuming from your discussion they are representatives of the Devil or something and dedicated t doing bad things. Roger --part1_1ef.100f812.2b71c384_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What's a Freemason? I'm assuming from your discussion=20= they are representatives of the Devil or something and dedicated t doing bad= things.

Roger --part1_1ef.100f812.2b71c384_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 21:12:58 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C2CC92.31B60860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Roger, That's certainly NOT something anyone was inferring. I frankly can't = understand where you could derive that from the discussion we have been = having on PRR's (and other railroads') employment practices. Years ago, the AN Railroad went out of its way to hire good baseball = players (there was an industrial league here). Did that make baseball = players representative of the devil?? Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Huber25@aol.com=20 To: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 8:31 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR=20 What's a Freemason? I'm assuming from your discussion they are = representatives of the Devil or something and dedicated t doing bad = things. Roger=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C2CC92.31B60860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Roger,
 
That's certainly NOT something anyone was inferring. = I frankly=20 can't understand where you could derive that from the discussion we have = been=20 having on PRR's (and other railroads') employment = practices.
 
Years ago, the AN Railroad went out of its way to = hire good=20 baseball players (there was an industrial league here). Did that make = baseball=20 players representative of the devil??
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Huber25@aol.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, = 2003 8:31=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] re: = Freemasonry,=20 discrimination, and the PRR

What's a Freemason? I'm assuming from your = discussion they=20 are representatives of the Devil or something and dedicated t doing = bad=20 things.

Roger ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C2CC92.31B60860-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 23:27:25 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR In a message dated 2/4/03 2:44:11 PM Central Standard Time, DDrew@channing-bete.com writes: << Perlman streamlined the railroad with CTC installations, new yards and innovations such as the Flexi-Van, Central's answer to TrucTrain. >> Did he not also computerize the NYC, at least to the standards of the day? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 08:57:15 +0100 From: Burkhard Sanner Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic Hi folks, with the discussion on iron ore you touch the professional side of my rail enthusiasm. As a geologist, I am familiar with mining, ore types and distribution. There are 4 basic types of iron ore: 1) Hematite, which gives the red color and is an iron oxide. It is the most common one and can be found as well in old basement rocks (i.e. Missabe range) as in the paleozoic rocks of the Appalachian belt. I used to live as a child in a mining area for this hematitic iron ore here in Germany, and I can tell you, the colour is very hard (impossible) to be completely washed from boots, etc. Old, long ago abandoned ore loading facilities have still a redish colour all around. Fine coats of hematite also gives the red colour to red sandstones. Nick Kulp schrieb: > Hi Bob, > > Not all iron ore was from the Missabe Range. One of the richest and oldest operating > iron-ore mines in the US was in Cornwall, Pa. The iron ore from that mine was > in limestone and it was gray not red. > > Regards, > Nick Kulp > > I have a question about the color. The pellets I have seen looked more > gray, in some cases a sort of gray-brown. Were some in the iron oxide red > > color? > > Bob Zoeller > > http://www.igateway.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 09:19:24 +0100 From: Burkhard Sanner Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic (=?iso-8859-1?Q?c=B4td?=) -- Sorry, pressed "send" by accident; let my start again -- Hi folks, with the discussion on iron ore you touch the professional side of my rail enthusiasm. As a geologist, I am familiar with mining, ore types and distribution. There are 4 basic types of iron ore: 1) Hematite, which gives the red color and is an iron oxide. It is the most common one and can be found as well in old basement rocks (i.e. Missabe range) as in the paleozoic rocks of the Appalachian belt. I used to live as a child in a mining area for this hematitic iron ore here in Germany, and I can tell you, the colour is very hard (impossible) to be completely washed from boots, etc. Old, long ago abandoned ore loading facilities have still a redish colour all around. Fine coats of hematite also gives the red colour to red sandstones. Hematite is not magnetic; the name comes from the greek word "haima" for blood, because of the colour. Btw., polished hematite has a greyish shine and is used as a gem, however, the moment you have some hematite dust, it shows the red again. 2) Magnetite is also an iron oxide, but with more iron in the grid. Thus magnetite is the only iron ore which, as the name says, is magnetic. It sometimes is associated with hematitic mines, but the main deposits are the "banded iron formations" like the ones in brasil in Minas Gerais. These formations are only found in very old rocks like those of the Canadian shield. The colour of magnetite is dark grey to black. 3) The ore Nick Kulp mentions from Cornwall, PA, he says is associated with limestone. This is typical for Siderite, the iron carbonate. A main deposit of this type is e.g. the ore mountain in Styria/Austria, famous to railfans because the ore was shipped by a standard-gauge rack railway with large steam engines, replaced today by diesels with special braking (no rack anymore). Sideritic iron ore may be found in the Appalachian belt. The colour is brown to greyish, the ore is not magnetic. 4) The last type is Limonite, which occurs as secondary deposits e.g. on top of limestone layers. It consists of a mixtures of iron oxides and hydroxides, and is more or less just rust. Thus the colour is brown-yellow-red, just like rust. Deposits usually are minor and can occur everywhere where limestones or marls are not too far from primary deposits of hematite or magnetite. The ore sometimes has excellent quality and can contain much manganese, which made it interesting for the steel industry. All these ore types could have been shipped on the Pennsy, resulting in several different colours of the ore. Because of the excellent pigment quality of hematite, cars once being loaded with this stuff will carry a reddish tone for a long time (the "Falun red", the typical red of most Swedish and many North American houses, originally was made with hematite from the iron ore mines in Falun, Sweden). Regards, Burkhard Sanner Germany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 06:21:12 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=5BPRR=5D_PRR_ore_traffic_=28c=B4td=29?= Burkhard, Thanx for the interesting dissertation on iron ore colors. Most of the colors that were being described in the previous editions of the thread by Bob, Elden and myself were not of iron ore itself, but of taconite pellets. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 08:19:55 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR If I recall correctly, Saunders was a graduate of a small law school in Cambridge, our fair city, MA...which was and is it's own club and key to advancement in corporate ranks. Oh, the PRR did not run or control the N&W, even though they did own lots of N&W stock (dividends of which kept the PRR financially sound through the bad times.) Jim McDaniel, here in Delmarva near NS headquarters, where they are still making money hauling coal from West VA to Norfolk ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 08:24:50 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[PRR]=20PRR=20ore=20traffic=20(c=B4td)?= In a message dated 2/5/03 2:27:59 AM Central Standard Time, Burkhard.Sanner@geolo.uni-giessen.de writes: << There are 4 basic types of iron ore: (big snip) >> Thanks very much for the information, Burkhard. Sorry to "pile on", but can you enlighten us a little on the pellets? I tried a search, for example, for "taconite", but didn't come up with much in a short time. Is "taconite" the only pellet? Your mention of Sweden raises the question whether much of the import ore on the PRR came from there and the color of the pellets. I worked for Allis-Chalmers which had a subsidiary there which built equipment for the pelletizing industry there, as well as elsewhere (I didn't work for their cement and mining division, one of the reasons for my general ignorance on the subject). A similar question arises about Venezuela and the Missabe Range. And the timing of the shift from raw ore to pellets. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:29:00 -0500 Yea, and Perlman did it with Collins Radio computers. Collins quit the computer biz by the time of the PC merger. Worked so well with the PRR IBM's that there was a small army riding "clockers" between NY and Phila with tapes and printouts! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 11:27 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR > In a message dated 2/4/03 2:44:11 PM Central Standard Time, > DDrew@channing-bete.com writes: > > << Perlman streamlined the railroad with CTC installations, new yards and > innovations such as the Flexi-Van, Central's answer to TrucTrain. >> > > Did he not also computerize the NYC, at least to the standards of the day? > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:08:15 -0500 Correction. The PRR used Frieden punched tape system. The NYC stuck with their IBM punched card system. That was one of the principal screw-ups with the merger. Neither "team" was willing to yield their turf to settle on a common computer system. In the Williamsport area alone there were six computers, two in the passenger station, two at Newberry (NYC) Yard and two at the PRR Williamsport yard. Small wonder that the merged railroad went into the toilet. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Gregg Mahlkov Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 9:29 AM To: Bobspf@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR Yea, and Perlman did it with Collins Radio computers. Collins quit the computer biz by the time of the PC merger. Worked so well with the PRR IBM's that there was a small army riding "clockers" between NY and Phila with tapes and printouts! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 11:27 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR > In a message dated 2/4/03 2:44:11 PM Central Standard Time, > DDrew@channing-bete.com writes: > > << Perlman streamlined the railroad with CTC installations, new yards > and innovations such as the Flexi-Van, Central's answer to TrucTrain. > >> > > Did he not also computerize the NYC, at least to the standards of the > day? > > Bob Zoeller > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] Observation Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:39:21 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: Burnley, Charles Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 10:03 AM To: 'Prr-talk@dsop.cim' Subject: RE: [PRR] Observation Lee, Only a few GG1's had the louver relocation. Several different styles were used. The problem was basically solved with improved motor insulation, so the remainder of the fleet retained their original louvers. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: edmund burbage [mailto:leeprrswitchkey@msn.com] Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 9:27 AM To: PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Observation I just turned my calendar for the Pennsylvania RR and there is Three GG-1's with the air intake screens low on the body of the Locomotive. Is my 72 year old memory failing me wasn't this problem corrected after the Storm we had in the 1950's late where the blowing snow clogged these intakes? I thought they were moved to the top cowling of the Locomotive near the Pantagraphs. Could the Calendar Co. made a mistake in the date under the picture caption?? Lee Burbage **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=5BPRR=5D_PRR_ore_traffic_=28c=B4td=29?= Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:57:34 -0500 I seem to remember the pellets (looked like rabbit poop) coming from either Liberia or Libya when the ore jennies first came out. All came through S. Philadelphia and got dumped somewhere in the Wierton area. WDV (don't know poop about rabbits) -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bobspf@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 8:25 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic (cītd) In a message dated 2/5/03 2:27:59 AM Central Standard Time, Burkhard.Sanner@geolo.uni-giessen.de writes: << There are 4 basic types of iron ore: (big snip) >> Thanks very much for the information, Burkhard. Sorry to "pile on", but can you enlighten us a little on the pellets? I tried a search, for example, for "taconite", but didn't come up with much in a short time. Is "taconite" the only pellet? Your mention of Sweden raises the question whether much of the import ore on the PRR came from there and the color of the pellets. I worked for Allis-Chalmers which had a subsidiary there which built equipment for the pelletizing industry there, as well as elsewhere (I didn't work for their cement and mining division, one of the reasons for my general ignorance on the subject). A similar question arises about Venezuela and the Missabe Range. And the timing of the shift from raw ore to pellets. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Penn Center Plaza Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:02:46 -0500 Marty Wrote: I'm not sure which station was Broad Street Station. There was the one in North Philly (North Braod?) where they Pennsy and PRSL stopped. And, Suburban Station downtown. There may have been a station above Suburban that might have been called Broad Street, but, if so, it was gone in 1956. The Pennsy headquarters had moved into Penn Center Plaza by, at least, 1960. These buildings were constructed in the air rights over Suburban Station and whatever had been demolished at ground level. Regards, Marty Broad Street burned in 1952. Was located on the same turf where Penn Center Plaza was built. I think 4 Penn Center Plaza opened in 1956. Was featured on the calendar I think around 1957. I was hired there in 1958. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of LAMAassoc@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 5:12 PM To: DDrew@channing-bete.com; asmiller@mitre.org Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR In a message dated 2/4/03 3:28:03 PM, DDrew@channing-bete.com writes: << I'll play the devil's advocate here and say, after seeing interior shots of Penn Station in its last days before the wrecking ball, I think I can understand why there wasn't a big hugamug about the station coming down. ********************** Did Broad Street station come down under Saunders, or was that under the Symes administration? I forget when that was demolished. I wonder if the plans to take down Penn Station were already underway when Saunders came to the PRR, and it was left to him and his winning ways with regulators and the like to make it happen... Maybe that's why it looked shabby, the 'modern' PRR management didn't give a damn about the station or its maintenance as they knew any maintenance would be money down the toilet once demolition began. >> In fact, I had an office on the Northwest corner of old Penn Station that overlooked the Turf Bar on the North side and the PO building on the West. Our section of offices had a men's room that had the most interesting shower I had ever used. It had multiple shower heads, maybe 5. I "lived" in those offices several times, most often, in the threat of a labor problem. But, once, because of the NYC blackout. I had gone to Philly for a staff meeting and was on my way back and got as far as Newark, the day of the NYC blackout. I was able to get on a diesel switcher the crossed into NYC. The station, which was under destruction at that time (would have been 11/65), was pitch black, at least the lower level platforms were. We were lucky, however, that the construction crews had their own lighting systems (they worked around the clock to minimize interference with Pennsy & LIRR traffic during the day) and much of the building was lighted. I was told that in order to get into the station, MoW folks had to move and spike switches because there was no juice to do it. The main floor of the station had a number of automobiles on display and their lights were turned on. There were some giant searchlights on the 8th Avenue side and someone had moved them from skyward to parallel to the street and just aimed them uptown. Thus, for most of the blackout, Penn Station was one of the few islands of light in NYC. There were commuters bunking in everywhere they could find a space. My wife had just given birth to our first daughter and was safe and sound at Roosevelt Hospital. The 'phones worked and I was able to talk to her and call my worried parents in California. I walked around a while and then went back to the office which I had all to myself. There were stowed fold up beds and clean sheets and blankets sealed in brown paper packages. There were also some standard Pennsy lanterns with the big nine volt batteries. I got some food from the dinning car services down in the guts of the station and, in the morning, enjoyed the shower. So, the destruction of Penn Station in NYC was well underway in November, 1965. I do also remember moving the office out of the Station to the building immediately south of Penn Sta. That was before I left in Oct, 1966. I never went back although, I did visit with some colleagues at the Penn Central offices in or near Grand Central. I'm not sure which station was Broad Street Station. There was the one in North Philly (North Braod?) where they Pennsy and PRSL stopped. And, Suburban Station downtown. There may have been a station above Suburban that might have been called Broad Street, but, if so, it was gone in 1956. The Pennsy headquarters had moved into Penn Center Plaza by, at least, 1960. These buildings were constructed in the air rights over Suburban Station and whatever had been demolished at ground level. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:44:41 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] PR symbol freights, 1955/1958 locals vs. 1966 to Lines West In a message dated 1/22/03 3:26:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Local Freight Symbols > From: "Jerry Britton" > Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 08:28:23 -0500 > > Okay, gang, we had a great discussion yesterday on the naming of Extras. > Here's the subject for today... > > Some time ago Al Buchan, in a series of e-mails, was telling me that even > Locals had symbols and ran on "rough" schedules. He provided me with some > Harrisburg-related content, citing the source as the "1958 edition of GN > 234-B under PHL Region - HBG District for the Arranged Local Freight Train > Service". > > > EASTWARD > > > > P-26 departs HBG 7:00 a.m. to Royalton arriving 9:00 a.m. DESS - > > carload freight for points on run and performs station switching, and > > operates to Billmyer for connection top P-52 when necessary. > > > > PR-8 departs Enola 7:00 a.m. to Rutherford arriving 8:30 a.m. Daily > > [this was probably a transfer run] > > > > P-20 departs Enola 8:30 a.m. to York Haven arriving 12:01 p.m. DESS - > > carload freight for points on run and performs station switching. > > > > PR-2 departs Enola 7:00 p.m. to Rutherford arriving 8:30 p.m. Daily > > [this was probably a transfer run] > > > > WESTWARD > > > > PR-9 flip side of PR-8, Rutherford 10:00 a.m. Enola 11:30 a.m. > > > > P-21 flip side of PR-20, York Haven 2:00 p.m. Enola 11:30 a.m. - carload > > freight for points on run and performs station switching. > > > > P-25 flip side of P-16, Royalton 1:15 p.m. Harrisburg 1:45 p.m. - > > carload freight for points on run and performs station switching. > > > > PR-3 flip side of PR-2 Rutherford 10:00 p.m. Enola 11:30 p.m. > > Anyone have a 1954 edition of the aforementioned "GN 234-B" document? > I'll go out on a limb here and guess that P-__ was the symbol for Philadelphia Division locals and divisional trains (more or less), just as local arranged freight schedules (and some inductive reasoning) suggest CN-__ = Cincinnati Div CL-__ = Columbus Div GR-__ = Grand Rapids & Indiana Div FW-__ = Fort Wayne Division PH-__ = Panhandle Division SW-__ = Southwest Division I've never known what PR referred to, although the above suggests its use for transfers between Enola/Harrisburg and Reading. I don't see it in circa-1955 through freight schedules, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was a divisional designation, either. However, later several long distance trains used PR designations. For example, in 1966 these trains would have passed through Pittsburgh: PR-11 Pitcairn to TRRA E St Louis PR-15 Pitcairn to Peoria PR-19 Pitcairn to Indiana Harbor Belt Chicago PR-9 Greenville to Alton & Southern E St Louis Interesting that there are no EVEN numbered PR's out here (exception - PC added a PR-2 from Chicago). OTOH, 1966 usage offered SW's destined for Pittsburgh and Enola -- more or less PR's "opposite numbers" out of the various St. Louis points. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:44:41 EST Subject: [PRR] PR symbol freights, 1955/1958 locals vs. 1966 to Lines West --part1_17e.16622d75.2b729979_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/22/03 3:26:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Local Freight Symbols > From: "Jerry Britton" > Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 08:28:23 -0500 > > Okay, gang, we had a great discussion yesterday on the naming of Extras. > Here's the subject for today... > > Some time ago Al Buchan, in a series of e-mails, was telling me that even > Locals had symbols and ran on "rough" schedules. He provided me with some > Harrisburg-related content, citing the source as the "1958 edition of GN > 234-B under PHL Region - HBG District for the Arranged Local Freight Train > Service". > > > EASTWARD > > > > P-26 departs HBG 7:00 a.m. to Royalton arriving 9:00 a.m. DESS - > > carload freight for points on run and performs station switching, and > > operates to Billmyer for connection top P-52 when necessary. > > > > PR-8 departs Enola 7:00 a.m. to Rutherford arriving 8:30 a.m. Daily > > [this was probably a transfer run] > > > > P-20 departs Enola 8:30 a.m. to York Haven arriving 12:01 p.m. DESS - > > carload freight for points on run and performs station switching. > > > > PR-2 departs Enola 7:00 p.m. to Rutherford arriving 8:30 p.m. Daily > > [this was probably a transfer run] > > > > WESTWARD > > > > PR-9 flip side of PR-8, Rutherford 10:00 a.m. Enola 11:30 a.m. > > > > P-21 flip side of PR-20, York Haven 2:00 p.m. Enola 11:30 a.m. - carload > > freight for points on run and performs station switching. > > > > P-25 flip side of P-16, Royalton 1:15 p.m. Harrisburg 1:45 p.m. - > > carload freight for points on run and performs station switching. > > > > PR-3 flip side of PR-2 Rutherford 10:00 p.m. Enola 11:30 p.m. > > Anyone have a 1954 edition of the aforementioned "GN 234-B" document? > I'll go out on a limb here and guess that P-__ was the symbol for Philadelphia Division locals and divisional trains (more or less), just as local arranged freight schedules (and some inductive reasoning) suggest CN-__ = Cincinnati Div CL-__ = Columbus Div GR-__ = Grand Rapids & Indiana Div FW-__ = Fort Wayne Division PH-__ = Panhandle Division SW-__ = Southwest Division I've never known what PR referred to, although the above suggests its use for transfers between Enola/Harrisburg and Reading. I don't see it in circa-1955 through freight schedules, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was a divisional designation, either. However, later several long distance trains used PR designations. For example, in 1966 these trains would have passed through Pittsburgh: PR-11 Pitcairn to TRRA E St Louis PR-15 Pitcairn to Peoria PR-19 Pitcairn to Indiana Harbor Belt Chicago PR-9 Greenville to Alton & Southern E St Louis Interesting that there are no EVEN numbered PR's out here (exception - PC added a PR-2 from Chicago). OTOH, 1966 usage offered SW's destined for Pittsburgh and Enola -- more or less PR's "opposite numbers" out of the various St. Louis points. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_17e.16622d75.2b729979_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 1/22/03 3= :26:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Local Freight Symbols<= BR> From: "Jerry Britton" <jerry@pennsyrr.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 08:28:23 -0500

Okay, gang, we had a great discussion yesterday on the naming of Extras.
Here's the subject for today...

Some time ago Al Buchan, in a series of e-mails, was telling me that even Locals had symbols and ran on "rough" schedules. He provided me with some Harrisburg-related content, citing the source as the "1958 edition of GN
234-B under PHL Region - HBG District for the Arranged Local Freight Train Service".

> EASTWARD
>
> P-26 departs HBG 7:00 a.m. to Royalton arriving 9:00 a.m. DESS  -<= BR> > carload freight for points on run and performs station switching, and > operates to Billmyer for connection top P-52 when necessary.
>
> PR-8 departs Enola 7:00 a.m. to Rutherford arriving 8:30 a.m. Daily
> [this was probably a transfer run]
>
> P-20 departs Enola 8:30 a.m. to York Haven arriving 12:01 p.m. DESS - > carload freight for points on run and performs station switching.
>
> PR-2 departs Enola 7:00 p.m. to Rutherford arriving 8:30 p.m. Daily
> [this was probably a transfer run]
>
> WESTWARD
>
> PR-9 flip side of PR-8, Rutherford 10:00 a.m. Enola 11:30 a.m.
>
> P-21 flip side of PR-20, York Haven 2:00 p.m. Enola 11:30 a.m. - carloa= d
> freight for points on run and performs station switching.
>
> P-25 flip side of P-16, Royalton 1:15 p.m. Harrisburg 1:45 p.m. -
> carload freight for points on run and performs station switching.
>
> PR-3 flip side of PR-2 Rutherford 10:00 p.m. Enola 11:30 p.m.

Anyone have a 1954 edition of the aforementioned "GN 234-B" document?


I'll go out on a limb here and guess that P-__ was the symbol for Philadelph= ia Division locals and divisional trains (more or less), just as local arran= ged freight schedules (and some inductive reasoning) suggest

CN-__ =3D Cincinnati Div
CL-__ =3D Columbus Div
GR-__ =3D Grand Rapids & Indiana Div
FW-__ =3D Fort Wayne Division
PH-__ =3D Panhandle Division
SW-__ =3D Southwest Division

I've never known what PR referred to, although the above suggests its use fo= r transfers between Enola/Harrisburg and Reading.  I don't see it in ci= rca-1955 through freight schedules, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was= a divisional designation, either.  However, later several long distanc= e trains used PR designations.  For example, in 1966 these trains would= have passed through Pittsburgh:

PR-11 Pitcairn to TRRA E St Louis
PR-15 Pitcairn to Peoria
PR-19 Pitcairn to Indiana Harbor Belt Chicago
PR-9 Greenville to Alton & Southern E St Louis

Interesting that there are no EVEN numbered PR's out here (exception - PC ad= ded a PR-2 from Chicago).  OTOH, 1966 usage offered SW's destined for P= ittsburgh and Enola -- more or less PR's "opposite numbers" out of the vario= us St. Louis points.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_17e.16622d75.2b729979_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 11:59:18 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Perlman - WAS: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR There were major installations of mainframe computer systems in the mid 1960's: an IBM 3000 system, and a Collins radio system of equal physical size to computerize the company's communications network, both at 466 Lexington Ave. There were also lower-tech projects, such as a closed-circuit TV system in Indianapolis to allow car clerks to read car reporting marks from an office location as the cars passed, rather than have to go out in the yard and read them in the field. Steve Bartlett Who installed the power systems for these Bobspf@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 2/4/03 2:44:11 PM Central Standard Time, DDrew@channing-bete.com writes: << Perlman streamlined the railroad with CTC installations, new yards and innovations such as the Flexi-Van, Central's answer to TrucTrain. >> Did he not also computerize the NYC, at least to the standards of the day? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Doug Drew Subject: [PRR] NYC/PRR computer systems Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:58:01 -0500 > Bob Zoeller wrote: > > << Perlman streamlined the railroad with CTC installations, new yards and > innovations such as the Flexi-Van, Central's answer to TrucTrain. >> > > BZ: Did he not also computerize the NYC, at least to the standards of the > day? > > DD: Yes, he did. Of course, the system they went with was totally > different in configuration from the PRR's. > > The systems chosen reflected the different management philosophies between > the two lines > > I believe Pennsy's data processing was centralized in Philadelphia, while > the Central's had various data processing 'nodes' around their system. > I've read that Perlman preferred to be out on the property 'working out of > his hat' and gave his regional superintendants more authority vs. the > PRR's running everything out of Philadelphia. > > Central's was better for keeping track of trains and cars and moving > traffic and generated this kind of data faster, Pennsy's was slower but > better for accounting and reporting purposes (given the amount of > paperwork involved in car accounting alone, this was important). Central > was focused on moving expensive finished goods and priority freight, > Pennsy was far more focused on moving mineral trains and raw materials. > > The Central used CRT terminals, Pennsy's used teletype terminals. > > They were made by different manufacturers (I think Sperry Rand for NYC, > IBM for PRR) and used different languages so they couldn't talk to each > other after the merger. > > Anyone ex-NYC or PRR employees please correct me if I'm wrong (Bill > Volkmer? Gregg Mahlkov?), I'm doing this from memory, based on reading old > Railway Age magazines in college, many many years ago. > > I believe that after the merger, the PRR's computer system was the one > that was chosen for use across the railroad, after the well-known period > where the computers wouldn't talk to one another and yardmasters had yards > chock full of cars, not knowing where to send them. > > Doug Drew > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Panza" Subject: Re: [PRR] PR symbol freights, 1955/1958 locals vs. 1966 to Lines Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 12:02:18 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C2CD0E.6E714B30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable According to the September 15, 1966 issue of "The Pennsy", PR stands for = Preference. This appears to have been a marketing tool but the article = claims 24 to 48 hour faster delivery. The article also states that the = trains were blocked at Conway for delivery to customers at Chicago and = St. Louis or to interchange with connecting lines. The PR trains = replaced AC, SW and LCL symbols. Of course, these were all westbounds = and perishable train SW-6 continued to operate into the PC era. PR-1 leaves Enola Yard near Harrisburg at 2:30 am and arrives at the = TrucTrain terminal in Chicago the following day at 5:00 AM. It carries = piggyback shipments, merchandise and miscellaneous freight. PR-3 leaves Philadelphia at 9:30 PM and arrives at 55th St. Yard Chicago = at 5:50 AM the second morning. It carries piggyback shipments, = autoparts and merchandise. PR-5 leaves Conway at 7:00 PM with cars received the same day from other = trains from Eastern cities and arrives at 59th St. Yard in Chicago at = 6:45 AM the next morning to meet schedules of connecting railroads. PR-7 carrying piggyback shipments and general merchandise leaves = Harsimus Cover, NJ at 10:45 PM to pick up cars from Baltimore and = Harrisburg and arrives at 55th St. Yard, Chicago at 8:30 AM the second = morning. PR-9 carrying piggyback and general merchandise leaves Kearny at 8:30 PM = and arrives at East St. Louis at 11:45 AM the second morning. PR-11 leaves Conway at 8:00 PM with cars received form Eastern Cities = and delivers them at East St. Louis at 4:15 PM the next day. The article made no mention of eastbounds that surfaced later on. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RickTipton@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; PennsyWest@egroups.com ; PRR@egroups.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 10:44 AM Subject: [PRR] PR symbol freights, 1955/1958 locals vs. 1966 to Lines = West=20 In a message dated 1/22/03 3:26:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, = PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: Subject: Local Freight Symbols From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 08:28:23 -0500 Okay, gang, we had a great discussion yesterday on the naming of = Extras. Here's the subject for today... Some time ago Al Buchan, in a series of e-mails, was telling me that = even Locals had symbols and ran on "rough" schedules. He provided me with = some Harrisburg-related content, citing the source as the "1958 edition = of GN 234-B under PHL Region - HBG District for the Arranged Local Freight = Train Service". > EASTWARD >=20 > P-26 departs HBG 7:00 a.m. to Royalton arriving 9:00 a.m. DESS - > carload freight for points on run and performs station switching, = and > operates to Billmyer for connection top P-52 when necessary. >=20 > PR-8 departs Enola 7:00 a.m. to Rutherford arriving 8:30 a.m. = Daily > [this was probably a transfer run] >=20 > P-20 departs Enola 8:30 a.m. to York Haven arriving 12:01 p.m. = DESS - > carload freight for points on run and performs station switching. >=20 > PR-2 departs Enola 7:00 p.m. to Rutherford arriving 8:30 p.m. = Daily > [this was probably a transfer run] >=20 > WESTWARD >=20 > PR-9 flip side of PR-8, Rutherford 10:00 a.m. Enola 11:30 a.m. >=20 > P-21 flip side of PR-20, York Haven 2:00 p.m. Enola 11:30 a.m. - = carload > freight for points on run and performs station switching. >=20 > P-25 flip side of P-16, Royalton 1:15 p.m. Harrisburg 1:45 p.m. - > carload freight for points on run and performs station switching. >=20 > PR-3 flip side of PR-2 Rutherford 10:00 p.m. Enola 11:30 p.m. Anyone have a 1954 edition of the aforementioned "GN 234-B" = document? I'll go out on a limb here and guess that P-__ was the symbol for = Philadelphia Division locals and divisional trains (more or less), just = as local arranged freight schedules (and some inductive reasoning) = suggest CN-__ =3D Cincinnati Div CL-__ =3D Columbus Div GR-__ =3D Grand Rapids & Indiana Div FW-__ =3D Fort Wayne Division PH-__ =3D Panhandle Division SW-__ =3D Southwest Division I've never known what PR referred to, although the above suggests its = use for transfers between Enola/Harrisburg and Reading. I don't see it = in circa-1955 through freight schedules, but that doesn't necessarily = mean it was a divisional designation, either. However, later several = long distance trains used PR designations. For example, in 1966 these = trains would have passed through Pittsburgh: PR-11 Pitcairn to TRRA E St Louis PR-15 Pitcairn to Peoria PR-19 Pitcairn to Indiana Harbor Belt Chicago PR-9 Greenville to Alton & Southern E St Louis Interesting that there are no EVEN numbered PR's out here (exception - = PC added a PR-2 from Chicago). OTOH, 1966 usage offered SW's destined = for Pittsburgh and Enola -- more or less PR's "opposite numbers" out of = the various St. Louis points. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C2CD0E.6E714B30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
According to the September 15, 1966 = issue of "The=20 Pennsy", PR stands for Preference.  This appears to have been a = marketing=20 tool but the article claims 24 to 48 hour faster delivery.  The = article=20 also states that the trains were blocked at Conway for delivery to = customers at=20 Chicago and St. Louis or to interchange with connecting lines.  The = PR=20 trains replaced AC, SW and LCL symbols.  Of course, these were all=20 westbounds and perishable train SW-6 continued to operate into the PC=20 era.
 
PR-1 leaves Enola Yard near Harrisburg = at 2:30 am=20 and arrives at the TrucTrain terminal in Chicago the following day at = 5:00=20 AM.  It carries piggyback shipments, merchandise and miscellaneous=20 freight.
 
PR-3 leaves Philadelphia at 9:30 PM and = arrives at=20 55th St. Yard Chicago at 5:50 AM the second morning.  It carries = piggyback=20 shipments, autoparts and merchandise.
 
PR-5 leaves Conway at 7:00 PM with cars = received=20 the same day from other trains from Eastern cities and arrives at 59th = St. Yard=20 in Chicago at 6:45 AM the next morning to meet schedules of connecting=20 railroads.
 
PR-7 carrying piggyback shipments and = general=20 merchandise leaves Harsimus Cover, NJ at 10:45 PM to pick up cars from = Baltimore=20 and Harrisburg and arrives at 55th St. Yard, Chicago at 8:30 AM the = second=20 morning.
 
PR-9 carrying piggyback and general = merchandise=20 leaves Kearny at 8:30 PM and arrives at East St. Louis at 11:45 AM the = second=20 morning.
 
PR-11 leaves Conway at 8:00 PM with = cars received=20 form Eastern Cities and delivers them at East St. Louis at 4:15 PM the = next=20 day.
 
The article made no mention of = eastbounds that=20 surfaced later on.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RickTipton@aol.com
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; PennsyWest@egroups.com ; PRR@egroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, = 2003 10:44=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] PR symbol = freights,=20 1955/1958 locals vs. 1966 to Lines West

In a message dated 1/22/03 3:26:34 AM Eastern = Standard=20 Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 writes:


Subject: Local Freight Symbols
From: "Jerry Britton" = <jerry@pennsyrr.com>
Date: = Tue, 21=20 Jan 2003 08:28:23 -0500

Okay, gang, we had a great discussion = yesterday on the naming of Extras.
Here's the subject for=20 today...

Some time ago Al Buchan, in a series of e-mails, was = telling=20 me that even
Locals had symbols and ran on "rough" schedules. He = provided=20 me with some
Harrisburg-related content, citing the source as the = "1958=20 edition of GN
234-B under PHL Region - HBG District for the = Arranged=20 Local Freight Train
Service".

> EASTWARD
> =
> P-26=20 departs HBG 7:00 a.m. to Royalton arriving 9:00 a.m. DESS  = -
>=20 carload freight for points on run and performs station switching,=20 and
> operates to Billmyer for connection top P-52 when=20 necessary.
>
> PR-8 departs Enola 7:00 a.m. to = Rutherford=20 arriving 8:30 a.m. Daily
> [this was probably a transfer = run]
>=20
> P-20 departs Enola 8:30 a.m. to York Haven arriving 12:01 = p.m. DESS=20 -
> carload freight for points on run and performs station=20 switching.
>
> PR-2 departs Enola 7:00 p.m. to = Rutherford=20 arriving 8:30 p.m. Daily
> [this was probably a transfer = run]
>=20
> WESTWARD
>
> PR-9 flip side of PR-8, = Rutherford 10:00=20 a.m. Enola 11:30 a.m.
>
> P-21 flip side of PR-20, York = Haven=20 2:00 p.m. Enola 11:30 a.m. - carload
> freight for points on = run and=20 performs station switching.
>
> P-25 flip side of P-16, = Royalton 1:15 p.m. Harrisburg 1:45 p.m. -
> carload freight = for points=20 on run and performs station switching.
>
> PR-3 flip = side of=20 PR-2 Rutherford 10:00 p.m. Enola 11:30 p.m.

Anyone have a = 1954=20 edition of the aforementioned "GN 234-B"=20 document?


I'll go out on a limb here and guess = that=20 P-__ was the symbol for Philadelphia Division locals and divisional = trains=20 (more or less), just as local arranged freight schedules (and some = inductive=20 reasoning) suggest

CN-__ =3D Cincinnati Div
CL-__ =3D = Columbus=20 Div
GR-__ =3D Grand Rapids & Indiana Div
FW-__ =3D Fort = Wayne=20 Division
PH-__ =3D Panhandle Division
SW-__ =3D Southwest=20 Division

I've never known what PR referred to, although the = above=20 suggests its use for transfers between Enola/Harrisburg and = Reading.  I=20 don't see it in circa-1955 through freight schedules, but that doesn't = necessarily mean it was a divisional designation, either.  = However, later=20 several long distance trains used PR designations.  For example, = in 1966=20 these trains would have passed through Pittsburgh:

PR-11 = Pitcairn to=20 TRRA E St Louis
PR-15 Pitcairn to Peoria
PR-19 Pitcairn to = Indiana=20 Harbor Belt Chicago
PR-9 Greenville to Alton & Southern E St=20 Louis

Interesting that there are no EVEN numbered PR's out here = (exception - PC added a PR-2 from Chicago).  OTOH, 1966 usage = offered=20 SW's destined for Pittsburgh and Enola -- more or less PR's "opposite = numbers"=20 out of the various St. Louis points.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the = Pennsylvania=20 Railroad and especially PRR Lines West = ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C2CD0E.6E714B30-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:10:23 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR --0-484332006-1044468623=:25587 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Never saw shots of Pennsylvania Station interior before demolition, but not only saw photographs but was inside old Union Station in Worcester, Mass., before restoration. If you want to see a beautiful job of restoration (they even reconstructed the exterior towers that had fallen down years ago) check out links from the New Haven Historical society site or do a search. Of course, this restoration only cost $40 million, from what I've read. Ron LAMAassoc@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 2/4/03 3:28:03 PM, DDrew@channing-bete.com writes: << I'll play the devil's advocate here and say, after seeing interior shots of Penn Station in its last days before the wrecking ball, I think I can understand why there wasn't a big hugamug about the station coming down. ********************** Did Broad Street station come down under Saunders, or was that under the Symes administration? I forget when that was demolished. I wonder if the plans to take down Penn Station were already underway when Saunders came to the PRR, and it was left to him and his winning ways with regulators and the like to make it happen... Maybe that's why it looked shabby, the 'modern' PRR management didn't give a damn about the station or its maintenance as they knew any maintenance would be money down the toilet once demolition began. >> In fact, I had an office on the Northwest corner of old Penn Station that overlooked the Turf Bar on the North side and the PO building on the West. Our section of offices had a men's room that had the most interesting shower I had ever used. It had multiple shower heads, maybe 5. I "lived" in those offices several times, most often, in the threat of a labor problem. But, once, because of the NYC blackout. I had gone to Philly for a staff meeting and was on my way back and got as far as Newark, the day of the NYC blackout. I was able to get on a diesel switcher the crossed into NYC. The station, which was under destruction at that time (would have been 11/65), was pitch black, at least the lower level platforms were. We were lucky, however, that the construction crews had their own lighting systems (they worked around the clock to minimize interference with Pennsy & LIRR traffic during the day) and much of the building was lighted. I was told that in order to get into the station, MoW folks had to move and spike switches because there was no juice to do it. The main floor of the station had a number of automobiles on display and their lights were turned on. There were some giant searchlights on the 8th Avenue side and someone had moved them from skyward to parallel to the street and just aimed them uptown. Thus, for most of the blackout, Penn Station was one of the few islands of light in NYC. There were commuters bunking in everywhere they could find a space. My wife had just given birth to our first daughter and was safe and sound at Roosevelt Hospital. The 'phones worked and I was able to talk to her and call my worried parents in California. I walked around a while and then went back to the office which I had all to myself. There were stowed fold up beds and clean sheets and blankets sealed in brown paper packages. There were also some standard Pennsy lanterns with the big nine volt batteries. I got some food from the dinning car services down in the guts of the station and, in the morning, enjoyed the shower. So, the destruction of Penn Station in NYC was well underway in November, 1965. I do also remember moving the office out of the Station to the building immediately south of Penn Sta. That was before I left in Oct, 1966. I never went back although, I did visit with some colleagues at the Penn Central offices in or near Grand Central. I'm not sure which station was Broad Street Station. There was the one in North Philly (North Braod?) where they Pennsy and PRSL stopped. And, Suburban Station downtown. There may have been a station above Suburban that might have been called Broad Street, but, if so, it was gone in 1956. The Pennsy headquarters had moved into Penn Center Plaza by, at least, 1960. These buildings were constructed in the air rights over Suburban Station and whatever had been demolished at ground level. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-484332006-1044468623=:25587 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Never saw shots of Pennsylvania Station interior before demolition, but not only saw photographs but was inside old Union Station in Worcester, Mass., before restoration.  If you want to see a beautiful job of restoration (they even reconstructed the exterior towers that had fallen down years ago) check out links from the New Haven Historical society site or do a search.  Of course, this restoration only cost $40 million, from what I've read.  Ron

  LAMAassoc@aol.com wrote:


In a message dated 2/4/03 3:28:03 PM, DDrew@channing-bete.com writes:

<< I'll play the devil's advocate here and say, after seeing interior shots of

Penn Station in its last days before the wrecking ball, I think I can

understand why there wasn't a big hugamug about the station coming down.

**********************

Did Broad Street station come down under Saunders, or was that under the

Symes administration? I forget when that was demolished. I wonder if the

plans to take down Penn Station were already underway when Saunders came to

the PRR, and it was left to him and his winning ways with regulators and the

like to make it happen... Maybe that's why it looked shabby, the 'modern'

PRR management didn't give a damn about the station or its maintenance as

they knew any maintenance would be money down the toilet once Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-484332006-1044468623=:25587-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Doug Drew Subject: [PRR] PRR/NYC computer systems Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:29:40 -0500 Wow, I guess I should have waited for the next digest of replies to Bob Zoeller's question about NYC's computers. Both Gregg M. and Bill V. replied with the real answers, vs. my obviously bad memory. Before my post, of course -- the hazards of getting PRR-talk in digest form! "Better to be silent and be thought a fool, that to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." -- Mark Twain Thanks, guys. -- Doug Drew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] NYC/PRR computer systems Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:44:39 -0500 Doug Drew wrote: They were made by different manufacturers (I think Sperry Rand for > NYC, IBM for PRR) and used different languages so they couldn't talk > to each other after the merger. > > Anyone ex-NYC or PRR employees please correct me if I'm wrong (Bill > Volkmer? Gregg Mahlkov?), I'm doing this from memory, based on reading > old Railway Age magazines in college, many many years ago. > > I believe that after the merger, the PRR's computer system was the > one that was chosen for use across the railroad, after the well-known > period where the computers wouldn't talk to one another and > yardmasters had yards chock full of cars, not knowing where to send > them. > > Doug Drew Bill V. writes: As I recall, both (computer)systems had their individual merits and demerits. I guess it was six of one or half a dozen as to which one was better. My problem with the whole thing was that the two railroad top managements should have gotten together BEFORE the merger and ironed that one out. As it turned out, they didn't, until the PC was darned near into bankruptcy and most of the players in the debacle had long since resigned (I was one of the first to do that, 6-30-58). Perleman ran the show strictly by the seat of his pants. His philosophy was "if it looks good in the catalogue buy one. If that one works, buy some more. Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" The PRR on the other hand was very conservative, almost to a fault. They would buy one of something and send it to the Altoona Test Department for endless testing. So much testing that by the time they decided to buy a second one, the one they had tested had become obsolete. Then each office on the system had to individually order one for themselves (Xerox Machines is a good example that comes to mind). The requisition had to go up the daisy chain of command for approval, and after the Division Supt. signed off on the requisition, then Philadelphia had to buy it and have it shipped to the place that ordered it. This often took months and months. Over on the NYC Perleman left the (testing) responsibility in the hands of the individual location. If the product didn't work out, then shame on them, let them go out and buy a replacement. This exemplified why the PRR called themselves the "Standard Railroad of the World". The pencil sharpeners were all alike, but the locomotives were all different. I used to say that the only reason that the Pennsy didn't buy locomotives from Lionel is because they were all built to the wrong gauge track! Bill V. (Don't get me started on the wreck of the Penn Central, PLEASE) -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Doug Drew Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 12:58 PM To: 'PRR-Talk' Subject: [PRR] NYC/PRR computer systems > Bob Zoeller wrote: > > << Perlman streamlined the railroad with CTC installations, new yards > and innovations such as the Flexi-Van, Central's answer to TrucTrain. > >> > > BZ: Did he not also computerize the NYC, at least to the standards of > the day? > > DD: Yes, he did. Of course, the system they went with was totally > different in configuration from the PRR's. > > The systems chosen reflected the different management philosophies > between the two lines > > I believe Pennsy's data processing was centralized in Philadelphia, > while the Central's had various data processing 'nodes' around their > system. I've read that Perlman preferred to be out on the property > 'working out of his hat' and gave his regional superintendants more > authority vs. the PRR's running everything out of Philadelphia. > > Central's was better for keeping track of trains and cars and moving > traffic and generated this kind of data faster, Pennsy's was slower > but better for accounting and reporting purposes (given the amount of > paperwork involved in car accounting alone, this was important). > Central was focused on moving expensive finished goods and priority > freight, Pennsy was far more focused on moving mineral trains and raw > materials. > > The Central used CRT terminals, Pennsy's used teletype terminals. > > They were made by different manufacturers (I think Sperry Rand for > NYC, IBM for PRR) and used different languages so they couldn't talk > to each other after the merger. > > Anyone ex-NYC or PRR employees please correct me if I'm wrong (Bill > Volkmer? Gregg Mahlkov?), I'm doing this from memory, based on reading > old Railway Age magazines in college, many many years ago. > > I believe that after the merger, the PRR's computer system was the > one that was chosen for use across the railroad, after the well-known > period where the computers wouldn't talk to one another and > yardmasters had yards chock full of cars, not knowing where to send > them. > > Doug Drew > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC/PRR computer systems Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:48:22 -0500 The combined system used by PC had features of both systems. I recall that car inventory (DICCS) and the sales reports were basically the NYC system. PRR sales types missed the Daily New Loads Reports as we went to weekly reports, except at the end of the month, where we got the last nine or ten days (except Feb) as the 4th week. Thankfully the Friden "Flexowriter" system used by the PRR to input yard and billing data was junked.. The stuff was so noisy that as soon as those operating it got enough seniority, they bid off the jobs, so PRR had to train yet another clerk in Flexowriter operation.. NIH was alive and well in the industry through the 1980's. During that time, the AN, with 100 miles of track and 100 employees, designed its very own computer system for rating and billing, car accounting and many other functions. Thankfully, the development of the ISS by the AAR ended the era of each road going its own way. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Drew" To: "'PRR-Talk'" Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 12:58 PM Subject: [PRR] NYC/PRR computer systems > > Bob Zoeller wrote: > > > > << Perlman streamlined the railroad with CTC installations, new yards and > > innovations such as the Flexi-Van, Central's answer to TrucTrain. >> > > > > BZ: Did he not also computerize the NYC, at least to the standards of the > > day? > > > > DD: Yes, he did. Of course, the system they went with was totally > > different in configuration from the PRR's. > > > > The systems chosen reflected the different management philosophies between > > the two lines > > > > I believe Pennsy's data processing was centralized in Philadelphia, while > > the Central's had various data processing 'nodes' around their system. > > I've read that Perlman preferred to be out on the property 'working out of > > his hat' and gave his regional superintendants more authority vs. the > > PRR's running everything out of Philadelphia. > > > > Central's was better for keeping track of trains and cars and moving > > traffic and generated this kind of data faster, Pennsy's was slower but > > better for accounting and reporting purposes (given the amount of > > paperwork involved in car accounting alone, this was important). Central > > was focused on moving expensive finished goods and priority freight, > > Pennsy was far more focused on moving mineral trains and raw materials. > > > > The Central used CRT terminals, Pennsy's used teletype terminals. > > > > They were made by different manufacturers (I think Sperry Rand for NYC, > > IBM for PRR) and used different languages so they couldn't talk to each > > other after the merger. > > > > Anyone ex-NYC or PRR employees please correct me if I'm wrong (Bill > > Volkmer? Gregg Mahlkov?), I'm doing this from memory, based on reading old > > Railway Age magazines in college, many many years ago. > > > > I believe that after the merger, the PRR's computer system was the one > > that was chosen for use across the railroad, after the well-known period > > where the computers wouldn't talk to one another and yardmasters had yards > > chock full of cars, not knowing where to send them. > > > > Doug Drew > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:54:45 EST Subject: [PRR] Wreck of the Penn Central In a message dated 2/5/03 12:36:58 PM, bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com writes: << (Don't get me started on the wreck of the Penn Central, PLEASE) >> As I've said, I left the Pennsy in 1966 and, for the most part, never looked back. I did, however, pick up one document that covers the wreck of the Penn Central. I don't remember where I got it but it may have been at the old GPO office in Washington, DC. There may be copies around and, you may be able to get one from your Congressman's office. It is titled: "The Financial Collapse of the Penn Central Company," Staff Report of the Securities and Exchange Commission to the Special Subcommittee on Investigations, Harley O. Staggers, Chairman, August, 1972. [Subcommittee Print], Printed for the use of the Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce. Geez, that's 30 years ago; maybe your Congressman wouldn't be able to get a copy. I've thumbed through and found more detail than anyone really needs. There is lots of finger pointing and claims that the other guys were fudging the books. Bevan (PRR) began a diary in 1967 and I see some grumping at "S.T.S" (Stuart Saunders - PRR) about fudging per diem costs. It is not well indexed so it is tough to pick specific subjects. But, if there are questions, I'll try to find answers. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:17:52 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] Passenger cars --0-1353579252-1044472672=:10361 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Now that I know what I'm looking for, I noticed that Car Numbers and Consists has floor plans of a couple of "partitioned" and "divided" cars, for the Southern Railway. On a different subject, when did Pullman begin painting cars two-tone gray rather than Pullman Green? Anyone know of a color photograph on line of a car so painted? Thank you. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1353579252-1044472672=:10361 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Now that I know what I'm looking for, I noticed that Car Numbers and Consists has floor plans of a couple of "partitioned" and "divided" cars, for the Southern Railway.

On a different subject, when did Pullman begin painting cars two-tone gray rather than Pullman Green?  Anyone know of a color photograph on line of a car so painted?  Thank you.  Ron

 


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1353579252-1044472672=:10361-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 14:20:08 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Northern Central Chapter Meeting This Weekend From: Jerry Britton The Northern Central Chapter of the PRRT&HS has a meeting this Sunday, February 9th, at 1:30 p.m. The meeting will be at the Otterbein United Methodist Church, York, Pa. Park out back and enter through the rear door. The meeting is open to the public, so feel free to join in. Besides a short business meeting, this is the annual "LCL" meeting. Members are encouraged to bring along any PRR stuff to show off. Typically this would include any railroadiana or models acquired or built during the past year. Past displays have included track charts, valuation maps (all of Enola, one year), Board of Director trip books, etc. Always something new and unique to see. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] RE: Wreck of the Penn Central Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:36:58 -0500 OK. I'll blow my own horn for one short toot. If you all will dig out the Keystone from a couple of years ago. I forget the exact issue but it was the green one with the U-25bs on the cover. In it you will find an article by MOI that pretty well sums up my feelings on the subject. It was in rebuttal to the interview with George Weaver. After you have read that article, I will be glad to answer questions. Bill V. (Could have wrote the book Wreck of the Penn Central before it was published but it probably wouldn't sell at the time) -----Original Message----- From: LAMAassoc@aol.com [mailto:LAMAassoc@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:55 PM To: bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com; DDrew@channing-bete.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Wreck of the Penn Central In a message dated 2/5/03 12:36:58 PM, bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com writes: << (Don't get me started on the wreck of the Penn Central, PLEASE) >> As I've said, I left the Pennsy in 1966 and, for the most part, never looked back. I did, however, pick up one document that covers the wreck of the Penn Central. I don't remember where I got it but it may have been at the old GPO office in Washington, DC. There may be copies around and, you may be able to get one from your Congressman's office. It is titled: "The Financial Collapse of the Penn Central Company," Staff Report of the Securities and Exchange Commission to the Special Subcommittee on Investigations, Harley O. Staggers, Chairman, August, 1972. [Subcommittee Print], Printed for the use of the Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce. Geez, that's 30 years ago; maybe your Congressman wouldn't be able to get a copy. I've thumbed through and found more detail than anyone really needs. There is lots of finger pointing and claims that the other guys were fudging the books. Bevan (PRR) began a diary in 1967 and I see some grumping at "S.T.S" (Stuart Saunders - PRR) about fudging per diem costs. It is not well indexed so it is tough to pick specific subjects. But, if there are questions, I'll try to find answers. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] GG-1 Observation Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:47:40 -0500 Buzz wrote: Only a few GG1's had the louver relocation. Several different styles were used. The problem was basically solved with improved motor insulation, so the remainder of the fleet retained their original louvers. Buzz Bill V. writes: By the time the remainder of the G's were available for the louvre modification, the E-44s had arrived and there was little or no money spent on the Gs. Very few received any kind of an overhaul. We were just plain out of money. Not many passenger trains left to pull etc. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Burnley, Charles Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 10:39 AM To: 'prr-talk@dsop.com' Subject: RE: [PRR] Observation -----Original Message----- From: Burnley, Charles Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 10:03 AM To: 'Prr-talk@dsop.cim' Subject: RE: [PRR] Observation Lee, Only a few GG1's had the louver relocation. Several different styles were used. The problem was basically solved with improved motor insulation, so the remainder of the fleet retained their original louvers. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: edmund burbage [mailto:leeprrswitchkey@msn.com] Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 9:27 AM To: PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Observation I just turned my calendar for the Pennsylvania RR and there is Three GG-1's with the air intake screens low on the body of the Locomotive. Is my 72 year old memory failing me wasn't this problem corrected after the Storm we had in the 1950's late where the blowing snow clogged these intakes? I thought they were moved to the top cowling of the Locomotive near the Pantagraphs. Could the Calendar Co. made a mistake in the date under the picture caption?? Lee Burbage ************************************************************************ **** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. ************************************************************************ **** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:17:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Passenger cars Now that I know what I'm looking for, I noticed that Car Numbers and Consists has floor plans of a couple of "partitioned" and "divided" cars, for the Southern Railway. On a different subject, when did Pullman begin painting cars two-tone gray rather than Pullman Green? Anyone know of a color photograph on line of a car so painted? Thank you. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 18:00:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] PR symbol freights, 1955/1958 locals vs. 1966 to Thanks Mr Panza, You must have read my mind. I was just about to ask about PRR"s "PR- Preference" freights. Looking for info on PRR's "AST" 2 and 4. Thanks, Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 18:50:25 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger cars --part1_a2.3311c3dd.2b72fd41_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I believe Pullman switched to the 2-tone grey scheme about the time that the prewar streamlined cars started coming off the assembly line. Corrections anyone?? Chris Baker #1918 --part1_a2.3311c3dd.2b72fd41_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I believe Pullman switched to the 2-tone grey scheme a= bout the time that the prewar streamlined cars started coming off the assemb= ly line.

Corrections anyone??

Chris Baker #1918 --part1_a2.3311c3dd.2b72fd41_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 19:29:56 EST Subject: [PRR] K-4 1361 Here is a follow-up reply to the 1361 staybolt rumor. Bushing down staybolt holes in wrapper sheets was common practice on many roads. If you think about it (and/or know anything about boiler work) you have to do something to reduce the size of the staybolt holes in the wrapper sheet eventually. Typically, staybolts start out being 15/16th or 1" dia. Each time a staybolt is changed out you ream and tap the hole to the next larger size (by 1/16ths) up to 1-1/8th or 1-3/16th which is generally considered to be the largest practical staybolt size. After the locomotive has had three or four new inner fireboxes, the staybolts are getting too large. So to save and get more use from the wrapper sheet, the holes in it are bushed down to original size and the process begins again. Changing out inner fireboxes was done continuously, they are consumable just like brake shoes, but the wrapper sheet was seldom renewed. J. David ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:05:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] PRR ore traffic We most of know that ore is used to make steel, here's one for the books...... A good friend of mine who is a PRRT&HS member and a long time railroad engineer, who has operated hundreds of ore drags out of Whiskey Island told me this strange but true story. As an engineer moving ore from Whiskey Island, he always noticed ore being set aside not going to the steel mills. It was always picked up by trucks. Where could ore be going by truck? He later found out the a women's cosmetic company was using it as a base for "rouge" or "blush". Strange but true. So when you give wife or girlfriend a kiss, you may taste a little ore jenny in there some where. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] PRR X43 Boxcars Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:33:24 -0500 I have all 16 Branchline PRR X43b's and X43c's. What type of roofwalk was used on these cars. I want to replace the plastic ones with metal ones. I realize that discussing PRR X43's can open a can of worms. Brian J Carlson Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 09:00:27 +0100 From: Burkhard Sanner Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic (=?iso-8859-1?Q?c=B4td?=) Bill Volkmer scribit: > I seem to remember the pellets (looked like rabbit poop) coming from > either Liberia or Libya when the ore jennies first came out. That would be Liberia, as there is now iron ore Libya (just crude oil...). Some tangent: To ship the ore from Liberia, a railraod was built from the inland mines to the port, and some unique German/American engines used: The old and famous loco builders Henschel in Kassel (now part of Thyssen and, if I remember correctly, Bombardier) got the contract to built these engines under EMD- license, with genuine GM engines. They look a bit like SD40s, and were the heaviest single engines ever built within Germany. Quite some task to move them from the factory to the shipping port! Henschel started into the loco business with another American partnership, building its first engine called "Drache" (Dragon) in 1848 with a license from Norris (bringing me back into PRR-country!). Burkhard Sanner Germany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 09:41:54 +0100 From: Burkhard Sanner Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic (=?iso-8859-1?Q?c=B4td?=) Dear Bob and list, Bobspf@aol.com scribit: > Sorry to "pile on", but can > you enlighten us a little on the pellets? I tried a search, for example, for > "taconite", but didn't come up with much in a short time. Is "taconite" the > only pellet? This is what the "Glossary of Geology" of the American Geological Insitute says on Taconite: "(a) A local term used in the Lake Superior iron- bearing district of Minnesota for any bedded ferruginous chert or variously tinted jaspery rock, esp. on that enclosed the Mesabi (sic!) iron ores (granular hematite); an unleached iron formation containing magnetite, hematite, siderite, and hydrous iron silicates. The term is specifically applied to this rock when the iron content, either banded or disseminated, is at least 25 %, so that natural leaching can convert it into a low-grade iron ore, with 50 to 60 % iron. (b) Since World War II, a low-grade iron formation suitable for concentration of magnetite and hematite by fine grinding and magnetic treatment, from which pellets containing 62 to 65 % iron can be manufactured." I think, this answers the question completely. Taconite is the name of a certain rock type containing the ore, which mainly is hematite and magnetite. And the pellets are a step of ore refinement, increasing the iron content of the material and thus reducing shipping volume. Pellets will also be even denser, i.e. heavier for the same volume, as the raw ore. Pellets are used in other ore types, too, so they are not restricted to "taconite". I would guess that Taconite pellets can also form some nice red dust, even if the pellets look more grey. And, because of the step for enrichment of the ore, they might be slightly magnetic, if the content of magnetite is high enough. Bobspf@aol.com continued: > Your mention of Sweden raises the question whether much of the import ore on > the PRR came from there and the color of the pellets. I worked for > Allis-Chalmers which had a subsidiary there which built equipment for the > pelletizing industry there, as well as elsewhere (I didn't work for their > cement and mining division, one of the reasons for my general ignorance on > the subject). > A similar question arises about Venezuela and the Missabe Range. And the > timing of the shift from raw ore to pellets. I do not know if much of the Swedish ore went to North America. It was shipped on the Malmbanen (ore railway, see the new Roco engines and ore cars) from Kiruna and Gaellivara, where the "iron mountains" are, to either Lulea on the Baltic ore to Narviik on the Norwegian Atlantic coast. Due to the Gulf Stream, Narvik is ice-free all winter. >From Lulea, shipments would be directed mainly to Europe; from Narvik, a part could be headed for USA, too. Iron ore from South America stems mainly from the Minas Gerais region in Brasil and is similar to "taconite". This is also a similar type as the one mined in Labrador. I would guess that, following taditional trade lines, most of the imported iron ore in Eastern US came from Liberia and Brasil. As for the time of the change, the pellet process took over after World War II (see above). Because it includes heavy and expensive machinery, it would have been introduced in steps, and with smallers mines probably shipping raw ore until the end of their operation. Regards from the hematite area of Germany, Burkhard Sanner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "James L. McDaniel" Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 08:15:46 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] PR symbol freights, 1955/1958 locals vs. 1966 to Lines Delmarva Division arranged freight services were all "D-somethings" both odd and even numbers. Jim McDaniel, here in Delmarva but who can't remember where he saved the info "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 08:15:46 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] PR symbol freights, 1955/1958 locals vs. 1966 Delmarva Division arranged freight services were all "D-somethings" both odd and even numbers. Jim McDaniel, here in Delmarva but who can't remember where he saved the info ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic (cītd) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 16:43:08 +0000 My experience in the steel industry of over 30 years sure doesn't lead to the book definition. Taconite as the term is used in the steel industry with which I am familiar is crushed iron ore (to a talc size) that is magnetically separated from the non-iron bearing rock and pelletized to produce a marble sized ball that is about 75-70% iron. The advantage is that the iron content is consistent which is necessary for today's quality reuqirements. In addition the mills don't pay to ship a waste product. In the past ten to fifteen years there have been efforts somewhat successfully to include limestone in the pellets to insure greater contact with the ore to remove impurities. the only problem is that the equipment used doesn't hold up that well in the basic environment this creates. This particulalry affects the stainless steel grates on which the taconite pellets are downdraft roasted to harden them. Prior to that they are just a bunch of mud balls. If you ever get the chance to visit a taconite plant it is a rather impressive sight. Empire mines in Palmer Michigan is probably the best one in my opinion because it is on the side of a mountain and you walk downhill the whole way but it had forty or fifty crushers that are about 30'x40' followed by slurry tanks to conentrate the ore fines and forty or fifty rotary ball mills that create the pellets and an equal number of furnaces that harden the pellets. It was running 24/7 the last time I was there. I don't know of any grade of iron ore that is called taconite. It is a man made product. > Dear Bob and list, > > Bobspf@aol.com scribit: > > > Sorry to "pile on", but can > > you enlighten us a little on the pellets? I tried a search, for example, for > > "taconite", but didn't come up with much in a short time. Is "taconite" the > > only pellet? > > This is what the "Glossary of Geology" of the > American Geological Insitute says on Taconite: > > "(a) A local term used in the Lake Superior iron- > bearing district of Minnesota for any bedded > ferruginous chert or variously tinted jaspery rock, > esp. on that enclosed the Mesabi (sic!) iron ores > (granular hematite); an unleached iron formation > containing magnetite, hematite, siderite, and > hydrous iron silicates. > The term is specifically applied to this rock when > the iron content, either banded or disseminated, > is at least 25 %, so that natural leaching can > convert it into a low-grade iron ore, with 50 to > 60 % iron. > (b) Since World War II, a low-grade iron > formation suitable for concentration of > magnetite and hematite by fine grinding > and magnetic treatment, from which pellets > containing 62 to 65 % iron can be > manufactured." > > I think, this answers the question completely. > Taconite is the name of a certain rock type > containing the ore, which mainly is hematite > and magnetite. And the pellets are a step > of ore refinement, increasing the iron content > of the material and thus reducing shipping > volume. Pellets will also be even denser, i.e. > heavier for the same volume, as the raw ore. > Pellets are used in other ore types, too, so > they are not restricted to "taconite". > I would guess that Taconite pellets can also > form some nice red dust, even if the pellets > look more grey. And, because of the step > for enrichment of the ore, they might be > slightly magnetic, if the content of magnetite > is high enough. > > Bobspf@aol.com continued: > > > Your mention of Sweden raises the question whether much of the import ore on > > the PRR came from there and the color of the pellets. I worked for > > Allis-Chalmers which had a subsidiary there which built equipment for the > > pelletizing industry there, as well as elsewhere (I didn't work for their > > cement and mining division, one of the reasons for my general ignorance on > > the subject). > > A similar question arises about Venezuela and the Missabe Range. And the > > timing of the shift from raw ore to pellets. > > I do not know if much of the Swedish ore > went to North America. It was shipped on > the Malmbanen (ore railway, see the new > Roco engines and ore cars) from Kiruna > and Gaellivara, where the "iron mountains" > are, to either Lulea on the Baltic ore to Narviik > on the Norwegian Atlantic coast. Due to the > Gulf Stream, Narvik is ice-free all winter. > From Lulea, shipments would be directed > mainly to Europe; from Narvik, a part could > be headed for USA, too. > > Iron ore from South America stems mainly > from the Minas Gerais region in Brasil and > is similar to "taconite". This is also a similar > type as the one mined in Labrador. I would > guess that, following taditional trade lines, > most of the imported iron ore in Eastern US > came from Liberia and Brasil. > > As for the time of the change, the pellet > process took over after World War II > (see above). Because it includes heavy > and expensive machinery, it would have > been introduced in steps, and with smallers > mines probably shipping raw ore until the > end of their operation. > > Regards from the hematite area of Germany, > > Burkhard Sanner > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Book seen at Amherst Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 12:08:48 -0500 Listers, Forgot to mention this earlier this week when posting about the Amherst show. While complaining to Weekend Chief about the lack of a PRR calendar, (It seems they got a lot of complaints for the lack of a PRR one.) I noticed in their discount bin, 3 copies of The PRR in Indiana I don't know if this book is readily available but if anyone is looking for a copy you could try them. The 3 copies where there with 20 min to go on Sun. Chris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] PRR Tichy Mill Gondola Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 12:30:50 -0500 Group, Wanted to know how accurate these models are? Looks nice to me but What do I know! Sam Vastano _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 13:15:04 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[PRR]=20PRR=20ore=20traffic=20(c=B4td)?= In a message dated 2/6/03 10:54:16 AM Central Standard Time, ndbprr@att.net writes: << My experience in the steel industry of over 30 years sure doesn't lead to the book definition. >> Norm, I have to ask both you and Burkhard to clarify his statement that the pellets are heavier than raw ore. The article I read about the G39 high side said that it was developed to fill to load versus the low side G38 which did not with the advent of the pellets. Is there more air in the pellet load due to the configuration? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] question Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 13:13:19 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2CDE1.84A2E980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a PRR sign in red and gold lettering with the word TASKER on the = flat metal plate sign. Can anyone tell me if this was a Station or Tower anywhere on the = Pennsylvania RR System? leeprrswitchkey@msn.com Lee Burbage BMCM USCG-Ret. Ex Railroader ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2CDE1.84A2E980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have a PRR sign in red and gold lettering with the word TASKER on = the=20 flat metal plate sign.
 
Can anyone tell me if this was a Station or Tower anywhere on the=20 Pennsylvania RR System?
 
 
=
 
 
Lee Burbage
BMCM USCG-Ret.
Ex Railroader
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2CDE1.84A2E980-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Tichy Mill Gondola Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 10:23:08 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CE0C.CC4AD1A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sam, Are you talking about Tichy's 52' composite war emergency gon? I do not have one yet, but John Johnson used one to build a nice accurate representation of a G30 (not the steel side rebuild G30a). I think he worked on the brake system to make it closer to a G30, though. The G30 did not have the side-mounted Ajax system, but some type of pump brake, maybe an Equipco? Therefore, there must be a revised mounting arrangement and all. Elden -----Original Message----- From: Sam Vastano [mailto:svastano@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 9:31 AM To: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR Tichy Mill Gondola Group, Wanted to know how accurate these models are? Looks nice to me but What do I know! Sam Vastano _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CE0C.CC4AD1A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] PRR Tichy Mill Gondola

Sam, Are you talking about Tichy's 52' composite war = emergency gon?  I do not have one yet, but John Johnson used one = to build a nice accurate representation of a G30 (not the steel side = rebuild G30a).  I think he worked on the brake system to make it = closer to a G30, though. The G30 did not have the side-mounted Ajax = system, but some type of pump brake, maybe an Equipco?  Therefore, = there must be a revised mounting arrangement and all.

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Vastano [mailto:svastano@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 9:31 AM
To: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; = PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] PRR Tichy Mill Gondola


Group,

Wanted to know how accurate these models are?  = Looks nice to me but What do
I know!

Sam Vastano








_______________________________________________________________= __
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 = months FREE* 
http://join.msn.com/?page=3Dfeatures/junkmail


---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CE0C.CC4AD1A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic (cītd) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 18:55:52 +0000 There isn't much question that pellets are going to weigh more for the same volume than ore. Pellets are quite heavy and feel like you are holding a ball bearing of the same size. I wonder if the cars were developed because the trucks could withstand greater loading than the car was capable of carrying? I am purely guessing because the iron ores were played out before I got into the steel industry and have absolutely zero experience in that area. The G39's appear to be a pretty standard size for ore cars without doing some volumetric research. > In a message dated 2/6/03 10:54:16 AM Central Standard Time, ndbprr@att.net > writes: > > << My experience in the steel industry of over 30 years sure doesn't lead to > the > book definition. >> > > Norm, I have to ask both you and Burkhard to clarify his statement that the > pellets are heavier than raw ore. The article I read about the G39 high side > said that it was developed to fill to load versus the low side G38 which did > not with the advent of the pellets. Is there more air in the pellet load due > to the configuration? > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:13:34 -0800 (PST) From: Randolph Harrison Subject: Re: [PRR] question --0-1588868387-1044558814=:77776 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I am not positve. But, I seem to remeber it as a stop on the PRR Chestnut Hill commuter line out of Suburban Station, Philadelphia. Please correct me if I am wrong. Randy Harrison edmund burbage wrote:I have a PRR sign in red and gold lettering with the word TASKER on the flat metal plate sign. Can anyone tell me if this was a Station or Tower anywhere on the Pennsylvania RR System? leeprrswitchkey@msn.com Lee BurbageBMCM USCG-Ret.Ex Railroader --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1588868387-1044558814=:77776 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

I am not positve. But, I seem to remeber it as a stop on the PRR Chestnut Hill commuter line out of Suburban Station, Philadelphia.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Randy Harrison

 edmund burbage <leeprrswitchkey@msn.com> wrote:

I have a PRR sign in red and gold lettering with the word TASKER on the flat metal plate sign.
 
Can anyone tell me if this was a Station or Tower anywhere on the Pennsylvania RR System?
 
 
 
 
Lee Burbage
BMCM USCG-Ret.
Ex Railroader


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1588868387-1044558814=:77776-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 14:02:48 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] question > I have a PRR sign in red and gold lettering with the word TASKER on >the flat metal plate sign. Can anyone tell me if this was a Station or >Tower anywhere on the Pennsylvania RR System? > leeprrswitchkey@msn.com Lee Burbage >BMCM USCG-Ret. Ex Railroader Now, I'm not sure if the sign is related, to this but those of you who have ever lived/worked in Philly should find "Tasker" familiar...Tasker Homes is located right of I76 in South Philly. Tasker Street was crossed by the Delaware Extension, within the limits of Penrose Interlocking. You can see this on Mark Bej's site at http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/penrose.gif Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 15:15:44 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] question From: Jerry Britton Well, I just happen to carry a copy of "The Pennsylvania Railroad in 1954", a cd-rom published by, uh, myself, in my planner. Found the answer rather quickly... (shameless plug!!!) In the Delmarva Division employee timetable number 6, published September 26, 1954, on page 4, TASKER is listed as a Block Station on the Main Line at milepost 6.5 (distance from Wilmington), but notes that it is on the Maryland Division. The Maryland Division employee timetable number 7, of the same date, shows TASKER on page 11 as a Block Station on the Delaware Branch and quotes the same milepost. On 2/6/03 3:02 PM, Bruce F. Smith (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >> I have a PRR sign in red and gold lettering with the word TASKER on >> the flat metal plate sign. Can anyone tell me if this was a Station or >> Tower anywhere on the Pennsylvania RR System? >> leeprrswitchkey@msn.com Lee Burbage >> BMCM USCG-Ret. Ex Railroader > > Now, I'm not sure if the sign is related, to this but those of you who have > ever lived/worked in Philly should find "Tasker" familiar...Tasker Homes is > located right of I76 in South Philly. Tasker Street was crossed by the > Delaware Extension, within the limits of Penrose Interlocking. You can see > this on Mark Bej's site at > http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/penrose.gif > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 15:36:44 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] PR (specifically) and Arranged Freight Schedules (comments) In a message dated 2/5/03 1:02:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, JimPanzaTTX@wideopenwest.com writes: > According to the September 15, 1966 issue of "The Pennsy", PR stands for > Preference. This appears to have been a marketing tool but the article > claims 24 to 48 hour faster delivery. The article also states that the > trains were blocked at Conway for delivery to customers at Chicago and St. > Louis or to interchange with connecting lines. The PR trains replaced AC, > SW and LCL symbols. Of course, these were all westbounds and perishable > train SW-6 continued to operate into the PC era. CG-2 (59th Street to Greenville) was another persistent eastbound schedule, running from at least 1955 to 1974. > > PR-1 leaves Enola Yard near Harrisburg at 2:30 am and arrives at the > TrucTrain terminal in Chicago the following day at 5:00 AM. It carries > piggyback shipments, merchandise and miscellaneous freight. > > PR-3 leaves Philadelphia at 9:30 PM and arrives at 55th St. Yard Chicago at > 5:50 AM the second morning. It carries piggyback shipments, autoparts and > merchandise. > > PR-5 leaves Conway at 7:00 PM with cars received the same day from other > trains from Eastern cities and arrives at 59th St. Yard in Chicago at 6:45 > AM the next morning to meet schedules of connecting railroads. > > PR-7 carrying piggyback shipments and general merchandise leaves Harsimus > Cover, NJ at 10:45 PM to pick up cars from Baltimore and Harrisburg and > arrives at 55th St. Yard, Chicago at 8:30 AM the second morning. > > PR-9 carrying piggyback and general merchandise leaves Kearny at 8:30 PM > and arrives at East St. Louis at 11:45 AM the second morning. > > PR-11 leaves Conway at 8:00 PM with cars received form Eastern Cities and > delivers them at East St. Louis at 4:15 PM the next day. > > The article made no mention of eastbounds that surfaced later on. > Thanks, Jim - that's a helpful addition to my info-at-hand. 1. Westbound PRIORITY seems a good explanation of the use of PR-xx in 1966. I don't see any eastbound PR's until after the merger. 2. However, in the Oct ETT, there were already at least two more PR's shown: a. PR-15 from Pitcairn to Peoria, and b. PR-17 from Pitcairn to Blue Island (Indiana Harbor Belt, Chicago) 3. In addition, the PR's schedules themselves can be changeable. Somewhere I've picked up info at slight variance with the Pennsy article you cite: a. PR-9 comes from Greenville NJ and runs to the Alton & Southern (probably MoPac connections) b. PR-11 comes from Pitcairn and runs to ? Yard on the TRRA in East St. Louis. A couple of thoughts: 1. The object of Arranged Freight Schedules was to organize a network of trains that expedited traffic by collecting like destinations early and then kept them out of as many yards as possible -- a car generally lost about a day for every hump yard it entered - and more at a "gateway" like Chicago or St. Louis. The systems AFS was created and maintained by a headquarters activity called something like "Operations Planning" (anybody know the correct title in PRR days?). 2. A hot AFS train was aimed at long distance, highly competitive and/or perishable traffic, where speed and reliability counted. So instead of dumping cars at the end of a run into a 59th Street (Chicago) or a Rose Lake (East St. Louis), they might tend to act like a runthrough and use the terminals of another railroad. 3. These Arranged Freight Schedules were altered whenever management saw fit. Thus, it's common to see a train moved from one yard to another in the same town (e.g Pitcairn to Conway). It's also pretty common to see a train extended - Conway one version, Enola the next. 4. Despite the churn, there were some AFS trains that ran from 50's Pennsy to 80's Conrail, changing symbols but still recognizably serving the same traffic lane. 5. This would make a great subject for an article (Keystone?). I wish I had time to pursue the additional research needed to make it comprehensive. Just keeping data sources straight would be a challenge. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 15:36:44 EST Subject: [PRR] PR (specifically) and Arranged Freight Schedules (comments) --part1_159.1b7c519d.2b74215c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/5/03 1:02:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, JimPanzaTTX@wideopenwest.com writes: > According to the September 15, 1966 issue of "The Pennsy", PR stands for > Preference. This appears to have been a marketing tool but the article > claims 24 to 48 hour faster delivery. The article also states that the > trains were blocked at Conway for delivery to customers at Chicago and St. > Louis or to interchange with connecting lines. The PR trains replaced AC, > SW and LCL symbols. Of course, these were all westbounds and perishable > train SW-6 continued to operate into the PC era. CG-2 (59th Street to Greenville) was another persistent eastbound schedule, running from at least 1955 to 1974. > > PR-1 leaves Enola Yard near Harrisburg at 2:30 am and arrives at the > TrucTrain terminal in Chicago the following day at 5:00 AM. It carries > piggyback shipments, merchandise and miscellaneous freight. > > PR-3 leaves Philadelphia at 9:30 PM and arrives at 55th St. Yard Chicago at > 5:50 AM the second morning. It carries piggyback shipments, autoparts and > merchandise. > > PR-5 leaves Conway at 7:00 PM with cars received the same day from other > trains from Eastern cities and arrives at 59th St. Yard in Chicago at 6:45 > AM the next morning to meet schedules of connecting railroads. > > PR-7 carrying piggyback shipments and general merchandise leaves Harsimus > Cover, NJ at 10:45 PM to pick up cars from Baltimore and Harrisburg and > arrives at 55th St. Yard, Chicago at 8:30 AM the second morning. > > PR-9 carrying piggyback and general merchandise leaves Kearny at 8:30 PM > and arrives at East St. Louis at 11:45 AM the second morning. > > PR-11 leaves Conway at 8:00 PM with cars received form Eastern Cities and > delivers them at East St. Louis at 4:15 PM the next day. > > The article made no mention of eastbounds that surfaced later on. > Thanks, Jim - that's a helpful addition to my info-at-hand. 1. Westbound PRIORITY seems a good explanation of the use of PR-xx in 1966. I don't see any eastbound PR's until after the merger. 2. However, in the Oct ETT, there were already at least two more PR's shown: a. PR-15 from Pitcairn to Peoria, and b. PR-17 from Pitcairn to Blue Island (Indiana Harbor Belt, Chicago) 3. In addition, the PR's schedules themselves can be changeable. Somewhere I've picked up info at slight variance with the Pennsy article you cite: a. PR-9 comes from Greenville NJ and runs to the Alton & Southern (probably MoPac connections) b. PR-11 comes from Pitcairn and runs to ? Yard on the TRRA in East St. Louis. A couple of thoughts: 1. The object of Arranged Freight Schedules was to organize a network of trains that expedited traffic by collecting like destinations early and then kept them out of as many yards as possible -- a car generally lost about a day for every hump yard it entered - and more at a "gateway" like Chicago or St. Louis. The systems AFS was created and maintained by a headquarters activity called something like "Operations Planning" (anybody know the correct title in PRR days?). 2. A hot AFS train was aimed at long distance, highly competitive and/or perishable traffic, where speed and reliability counted. So instead of dumping cars at the end of a run into a 59th Street (Chicago) or a Rose Lake (East St. Louis), they might tend to act like a runthrough and use the terminals of another railroad. 3. These Arranged Freight Schedules were altered whenever management saw fit. Thus, it's common to see a train moved from one yard to another in the same town (e.g Pitcairn to Conway). It's also pretty common to see a train extended - Conway one version, Enola the next. 4. Despite the churn, there were some AFS trains that ran from 50's Pennsy to 80's Conrail, changing symbols but still recognizably serving the same traffic lane. 5. This would make a great subject for an article (Keystone?). I wish I had time to pursue the additional research needed to make it comprehensive. Just keeping data sources straight would be a challenge. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_159.1b7c519d.2b74215c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 2/5/03 1:= 02:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, JimPanzaTTX@wideopenwest.com writes:


According to the September 15,=20= 1966 issue of "The Pennsy", PR stands for Preference.  This appears to=20= have been a marketing tool but the article claims 24 to 48 hour faster deliv= ery.  The article also states that the trains were blocked at Conway fo= r delivery to customers at Chicago and St. Louis or to interchange with conn= ecting lines.  The PR trains replaced AC, SW and LCL symbols.  Of=20= course, these were all westbounds and perishable train SW-6 continued to ope= rate into the PC era.


CG-2 (59th Street to Greenvi= lle) was another persistent eastbound schedule, running from at least 1955 t= o 1974.


PR-1 leaves Enola Yard near Harrisburg at 2:30 am and arrives at the TrucTra= in terminal in Chicago the following day at 5:00 AM.  It carries piggyb= ack shipments, merchandise and miscellaneous freight.

PR-3 leaves Philadelphia at=20= 9:30 PM and arrives at 55th St. Yard Chicago at 5:50 AM the second morning.&= nbsp; It carries piggyback shipments, autoparts and merchandise.

PR-5 leaves Conway at 7:00 P= M with cars received the same day from other trains from Eastern cities and=20= arrives at 59th St. Yard in Chicago at 6:45 AM the next morning to meet sche= dules of connecting railroads.

PR-7 carrying piggyback ship= ments and general merchandise leaves Harsimus Cover, NJ at 10:45 PM to pick=20= up cars from Baltimore and Harrisburg and arrives at 55th St. Yard, Chicago=20= at 8:30 AM the second morning.

PR-9 carrying piggyback and=20= general merchandise leaves Kearny at 8:30 PM and arrives at East St. Louis a= t 11:45 AM the second morning.

PR-11 leaves Conway at 8:00=20= PM with cars received form Eastern Cities and delivers them at East St. Loui= s at 4:15 PM the next day.
The article made no mention=20= of eastbounds that surfaced later on.


Thanks, Jim - that's a helpful addition to my info-at-hand.

1. Westbound PRIORITY seems a good explanation of the use of PR-xx in 1966.&= nbsp; I don't see any eastbound PR's until after the merger.
2. However, in the Oct ETT, there were already at least two more PR's shown:=
a. PR-15 from Pitcairn to Peoria, and
b. PR-17 from Pitcairn to Blue Island (Indiana Harbor Belt, Chicago)
3. In addition, the PR's schedules themselves can be changeable.  Somew= here I've picked up info at slight variance with the Pennsy article you cite= :
a. PR-9 comes from Greenville NJ and runs to the Alton & Southern (proba= bly MoPac connections)
b. PR-11 comes from Pitcairn and runs to ? Yard on the TRRA in East St. Loui= s.

A couple of thoughts:
1. The object of Arranged Freight Schedules was to organize a network of tra= ins that expedited traffic by collecting like destinations early and then ke= pt them out of as many yards as possible -- a car generally lost about a day= for every hump yard it entered - and more at a "gateway" like Chicago or St= . Louis.  The systems AFS was created and maintained by a headquarters=20= activity called something like "Operations Planning" (anybody know the corre= ct title in PRR days?).
2. A hot AFS train was aimed at long distance, highly competitive and/or per= ishable traffic, where speed and reliability counted.  So instead of du= mping cars at the end of a run into a 59th Street (Chicago) or a Rose Lake (= East St. Louis), they might tend to act like a runthrough and use the termin= als of another railroad.
3.  These Arranged Freight Schedules were altered whenever management s= aw fit.  Thus, it's common to see a train moved from one yard to anothe= r in the same town (e.g Pitcairn to Conway).  It's also pretty common t= o see a train extended - Conway one version, Enola the next.
4. Despite the churn, there were some AFS trains that ran from 50's Pennsy t= o 80's Conrail, changing symbols but still recognizably serving the same tra= ffic lane.
5. This would make a great subject for an article (Keystone?).  I wish=20= I had time to pursue the additional research needed to make it comprehensive= .  Just keeping data sources straight would be a challenge.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_159.1b7c519d.2b74215c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] Tasker Sign Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 15:51:45 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C2CDF7.A6B9B600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I believe my question has been answered. I have been told the sign came = from a collection in Wilmington, DE. I think I will go with the Block = Station theory. Thank you all very very much. Lee ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C2CDF7.A6B9B600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I believe my question has been answered. I have been told the sign = came=20 from a collection in Wilmington, DE. I think I will go with the Block = Station=20 theory.
 
Thank you all very very much.
 
 
Lee
------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C2CDF7.A6B9B600-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] question Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 16:07:07 -0500 Or for you cheapskates out there, Derrick the 9/54 Delmarva ETT at: http://prr.dementia.org/documents/delmarva_div_ett_9_1954.pdf He also has a MD one from 1935 at: http://prr.dementia.org/documents/maryland_div_ett_1935.pdf which on page 6 also lists TASKER but has the distance from west yard (5.1 miles) instead of Wilmington. Rob http://prr.railfan.net > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry > Britton > Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 3:16 PM > To: Bruce Smith; PRR-Talk LIST > Subject: Re: [PRR] question > > > Well, I just happen to carry a copy of "The Pennsylvania Railroad > in 1954", > a cd-rom published by, uh, myself, in my planner. Found the answer rather > quickly... (shameless plug!!!) > > In the Delmarva Division employee timetable number 6, published September > 26, 1954, on page 4, TASKER is listed as a Block Station on the > Main Line at > milepost 6.5 (distance from Wilmington), but notes that it is on the > Maryland Division. > > The Maryland Division employee timetable number 7, of the same date, shows > TASKER on page 11 as a Block Station on the Delaware Branch and quotes the > same milepost. > > On 2/6/03 3:02 PM, Bruce F. Smith (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: > > >> I have a PRR sign in red and gold lettering with the word TASKER on > >> the flat metal plate sign. Can anyone tell me if this was a > Station or > >> Tower anywhere on the Pennsylvania RR System? > >> leeprrswitchkey@msn.com > Lee Burbage > >> BMCM USCG-Ret. Ex Railroader > > > > Now, I'm not sure if the sign is related, to this but those of > you who have > > ever lived/worked in Philly should find "Tasker" > familiar...Tasker Homes is > > located right of I76 in South Philly. Tasker Street was crossed by the > > Delaware Extension, within the limits of Penrose Interlocking. > You can see > > this on Mark Bej's site at > > http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/penrose.gif > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=5BPRR=5D_PRR_ore_traffic_=28c=B4td=29?= Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 16:47:31 -0500 The ore jennies were created because the H-21 fleet was so rag tag that the numerous cracks had been stuffed with rags and the ore pellets found their way around the rags! WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 1:56 PM To: PRR-Talk; Bobspf@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic (cītd) There isn't much question that pellets are going to weigh more for the same volume than ore. Pellets are quite heavy and feel like you are holding a ball bearing of the same size. I wonder if the cars were developed because the trucks could withstand greater loading than the car was capable of carrying? I am purely guessing because the iron ores were played out before I got into the steel industry and have absolutely zero experience in that area. The G39's appear to be a pretty standard size for ore cars without doing some volumetric research. > In a message dated 2/6/03 10:54:16 AM Central Standard Time, > ndbprr@att.net > writes: > > << My experience in the steel industry of over 30 years sure doesn't > lead to > the > book definition. >> > > Norm, I have to ask both you and Burkhard to clarify his statement > that the > pellets are heavier than raw ore. The article I read about the G39 high side > said that it was developed to fill to load versus the low side G38 which did > not with the advent of the pellets. Is there more air in the pellet load due > to the configuration? > > Bob Zoeller > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] PRR ore traffic as in Renovo Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:00:47 -0500 OK sportsfans try this one on. During the 1966-68 period when I was at Renovo we had a movement of wooden CN box cars that came through ever day or two that made a turn to York, Pa. Have no idea who the consignee was but those old wooden box cars were quite an anachronisim in the 60s. Then one day, in the snow, a bunch of them derailed all over the place about half way between Renovo and Lock Haven, as usual on the opposite side of the river from the highway and a 10 mile drive by rr access road. There, sure enough was a whole bunch of these CN box cars all split open and loaded with ore that was about the constituancy of face powder. There was a front end loader scoop over each truck. The stuff was HEAVVVVVVY!. Turns out that the stuff was highly corrosive and they used wooden box cars to keep the rust down and then throw the car away when it finally disintigrated. So in addition to taking two hooks we hired a fleet of D-9 cats to plow the ore into the ground and tow the box cars off the right of way. So if you happen by MP 211 on a Sunday afternoon drive, help yourself to some ore and load up your box cars. Just make sure your models are made of WOOD! wdv -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of zootowerprr@webtv.net Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 8:06 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR ore traffic We most of know that ore is used to make steel, here's one for the books...... A good friend of mine who is a PRRT&HS member and a long time railroad engineer, who has operated hundreds of ore drags out of Whiskey Island told me this strange but true story. As an engineer moving ore from Whiskey Island, he always noticed ore being set aside not going to the steel mills. It was always picked up by trucks. Where could ore be going by truck? He later found out the a women's cosmetic company was using it as a base for "rouge" or "blush". Strange but true. So when you give wife or girlfriend a kiss, you may taste a little ore jenny in there some where. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic as in Renovo Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:06:42 -0500 Should have said "consistancy" in previous post. Also I forgot to mention that there is a picture of this wreck in my book PRR Hudson to Horseshoe, in case you be interested. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bill Volkmer Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 5:01 PM To: zootowerprr@webtv.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR ore traffic as in Renovo OK sportsfans try this one on. During the 1966-68 period when I was at Renovo we had a movement of wooden CN box cars that came through ever day or two that made a turn to York, Pa. Have no idea who the consignee was but those old wooden box cars were quite an anachronisim in the 60s. Then one day, in the snow, a bunch of them derailed all over the place about half way between Renovo and Lock Haven, as usual on the opposite side of the river from the highway and a 10 mile drive by rr access road. There, sure enough was a whole bunch of these CN box cars all split open and loaded with ore that was about the constituancy of face powder. There was a front end loader scoop over each truck. The stuff was HEAVVVVVVY!. Turns out that the stuff was highly corrosive and they used wooden box cars to keep the rust down and then throw the car away when it finally disintigrated. So in addition to taking two hooks we hired a fleet of D-9 cats to plow the ore into the ground and tow the box cars off the right of way. So if you happen by MP 211 on a Sunday afternoon drive, help yourself to some ore and load up your box cars. Just make sure your models are made of WOOD! wdv -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of zootowerprr@webtv.net Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 8:06 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR ore traffic We most of know that ore is used to make steel, here's one for the books...... A good friend of mine who is a PRRT&HS member and a long time railroad engineer, who has operated hundreds of ore drags out of Whiskey Island told me this strange but true story. As an engineer moving ore from Whiskey Island, he always noticed ore being set aside not going to the steel mills. It was always picked up by trucks. Where could ore be going by truck? He later found out the a women's cosmetic company was using it as a base for "rouge" or "blush". Strange but true. So when you give wife or girlfriend a kiss, you may taste a little ore jenny in there some where. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hipes" Subject: Re: [PRR] PR (specifically) and Arranged Freight Schedules Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 22:07:15 +0000 Rick and Jim wrote: > > > According to the September 15, 1966 issue of "The Pennsy", PR >stands >for Preference. This appears to have been a marketing tool but >the >article claims 24 to 48 hour faster delivery. The article also >states >that the trains were blocked at Conway for delivery to >customers at >Chicago and St. Louis or to interchange with connecting >lines. The PR >trains replaced AC, SW and LCL symbols. Just as an aside to this thread about the PR symbols, I recall talking to an operator at Alliance who told me a story about how he was working Leetonia one night and had a routing conflict between PR-5 and a passenger train due to another westbound in emergacny on # 2 track around Sebring. It seems the word from above was NO delays to PR trains. He suggested to the dispatcher that they reserve PR-5 on #1 track to CP and do it with enough time to not delay the passenger train. The dispatcher went along with him, put out the orders and off went PR-5 wrong main. Apparently one of PR-5's engines decided to act up on the climb up Garfield Hill. The train didn't stall, but it dragged along enough to delay the eastbound passenger train. At the end of his shift, the op got two phone calls/chewing outs. The first was from the chief dispatcher, reaming him for delaying the passenger train. The second call was from the division super, getting all over him for delaying a PR train. Steve Hipes, Columbus, Ohio, who still misses visiting towers and listening to operators tell stories. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 18:32:43 -0500 Subject: [PRR] InterMountain / Tichy From: "Jerry @ PRR" Public Service Announcement... In February, InterMountain will be delivering built-up Tichy's "USRA Single-Sheathed Boxcar" in Pennsylvania livery. Suggested retail is $32.95 each. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alex Charyna" Subject: [PRR] GG1s and Suburban Station/Broad Street Station Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 15:14:59 -0900 Listers, I've seen pictures of GG1s on the upper level of 30th Street Station. Did they ever run into Suburban Station, or before that Broad Street Station? I dont think there is or was any where to do a run-around to change sides, so maybe not. They could pull in engine first, unload, then deadhead out through 30th Street, and maybe put the engine on the front, and back into Suburban, I suppose. During the Broad Street Station "Chinese Wall" days, I think there was a turntable to turn steam, and likely a runaround there as well, so it would have been possible then. thanks in advance.. -alex ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 19:21:12 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Tichy Mill Gondola In a message dated 2/6/03 12:34:22 PM Central Standard Time, ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com writes: << I think he worked on the brake system to make it closer to a G30, though. The G30 did not have the side-mounted Ajax system, but some type of pump brake, maybe an Equipco? >> That is the major need. I have both a Tichy and Sunshine kit to build and paint and did some dimensions from the end photo in the Keystone to approximate that brake in styrene (none commercially available), using the three foot rule. By the way, the Sunshine resin kit is great, but the Tichy one-piece body is awesome---one of the best models I have ever seen, though I didn't mike it for dimensions. I also have an Equipco brake booklet I picked up for about a buck at a Railroadiana meet and if I can find it I will scan it and post it. Don't worry. If I get around to fabricating one, it will immediately be available from Details West or someone. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 19:26:58 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Sodus Point in MR? From: "Jerry @ PRR" On page 121 of the March issue of Model Railroader they advertise what will be in the next issue. It includes "Prototype Drawings: Lake Ontario coal dock". Could it be the PRR's Sodus Point dock? Will be interesting to see. A few years back I acquired via eBay a valuation map of the Sodus Bay area, including the dock. It also includes the locations of navigational buoys and depth soundings in the bay. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Tichy Mill Gondola Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 20:39:04 -0500 Sam Vastano asked: Wanted to know how accurate these models [Tichy War Emergency Gon] are? Elden Gatewood replied: The G30 did not have the side-mounted Ajax system, but some type of pump brake, maybe an Equipco? Therefore, there must be a revised mounting arrangement and all. Bob Zoeller added: That is the major need. I have both a Tichy and Sunshine kit to build and paint and did some dimensions from the end photo in the Keystone to approximate that brake in styrene (none commercially available), using the three foot rule. <> Don't worry. If I get around to fabricating one, it will immediately be available from Details West or someone. Sam, the kit doesn't exactly match Class G30 straight out of the box, but it doesn't take much work at all to get a great model. Richard Hendrickson details the modifications that he made to the Tichy kit to match a Class G30 gon in the May 2002 Rail Model Journal. He modeled the Klasing hand brake from styrene and wire, and replaced the kit trucks with Proto 2000 National Type B trucks. He also includes a photo of completed brake rigging on the model to augment the kit's instructions. Prototype photos of PRR 362548 and PRR 362853 (with a good view of the hand brake) are included. Ted Culotta also authored an excellent article in the August 2001 Railroad Model Craftsman including photos of PRR 343432, PRR 363797 (with a neat cable reel load), and builders photos of PRR 362548, including a nice B end photo. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 21:33:34 -0500 From: davep Subject: OT Wista Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the PRR > Never saw shots of Pennsylvania Station interior before demolition, but > not only saw photographs but was inside old Union Station in Worcester, > Mass., before restoration. If you want to see a beautiful job of > restoration (they even reconstructed the exterior towers that had fallen > down years ago) The towers were TAKEN down, as they were too heavy and starting to crack... > check out links from the New Haven Historical society > site or do a search. Of course, this restoration only cost $40 million, > from what I've read. ...and they still have not got anyone inside the station using the space... -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 22:19:14 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR ore traffic (c=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=B4td=29?= First, a few notes after looking at the library. The September 1982 Keystone had the article on the jennies. In answer to another question, 110 of the last G39As had the foam insulation added in 1964 and were tested by putting 55 with 45 noninsulated in unit trains in 1965 for comparison. Worked OK, but not worth the giveup in capacity and never repeated, except for a handful of other experimentals. The source for the comment about the G39 and pelletizing is the PRR color guide I; take that for what it is worth. Quote, re the G39: "The sides were extended (beyond those of the G38) because pelletized ore which is 125 lbs. per cubic foot, did not produce a capacity load without the extension" Not to bore the rest of the list with how many angels can dance on the head of a(n) (iron) pin, but besides a certain intellectual curiosity about things, my question is a modeler one arising from deciding what load to put when in a G39 and how high to pile it. That is, pellets or raw ore, gray-maroon or iron oxide color, heaping or smaller loads ala the H21 loads? If G39s and G38s were in the same train, was one heaped and another a smaller load, depending on pellets or raw ore? I normally focus on my 1950+/- era, but I venture outside my time era at the club to run certain trains (i.e., TT1, the South Wind with a dome behind ACL E6s, and now ore jennies, etc). I am less familiar with some of the details of those later trains. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Laurie Cooper" Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1s and Suburban Station/Broad Street Station Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 16:30:56 -0800 GG-1 used the old Broad Street Station all the time. I don't know the logistics of turning trains, but the chinese wall had 8 or 9 tracks on it, so getting the engine off a train was a relatively easy manouver. If I recall, they found that the GG-1 couldn't handle the grade out of suburban station. I don't think a G in suburban station was ever a regular event. I did see one in suburban station once around 1980 but I was in such a hurry to get to where I was going I didn't notice what it was doing there. John -----Original Message----- From: Alex Charyna To: PRR-Talk Posting Date: Thursday, February 06, 2003 4:18 PM Subject: [PRR] GG1s and Suburban Station/Broad Street Station >Listers, > >I've seen pictures of GG1s on the upper level of 30th Street Station. >Did they ever run into Suburban Station, or before that Broad Street >Station? > >I dont think there is or was any where to do a run-around to >change sides, so maybe not. >They could pull in engine first, unload, then deadhead out through >30th Street, and maybe put the engine on the front, and back into >Suburban, I suppose. > >During the Broad Street Station "Chinese Wall" days, I think there >was a turntable to turn steam, and likely a runaround there as well, >so it would have been possible then. > >thanks in advance.. >-alex > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Tichy Mill Gondola Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 07:52:15 -0500 Thanks for all who responded... I would like to get a hold of the article. Anybody willing to scan it for me and e-mail???? Thanks again Sam Vastano >From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" >To: , >Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Tichy Mill Gondola >Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 20:39:04 -0500 > >Sam Vastano asked: >Wanted to know how accurate these models [Tichy War Emergency Gon] are? > >Elden Gatewood replied: >The G30 did not have the side-mounted Ajax system, but some type of pump >brake, maybe an Equipco? Therefore, there must be a revised mounting >arrangement and all. > >Bob Zoeller added: >That is the major need. I have both a Tichy and Sunshine kit to build and >paint and did some dimensions from the end photo in the Keystone to >approximate that brake in styrene (none commercially available), using the >three foot rule. <> Don't worry. If I get around to fabricating >one, >it will immediately be available from Details West or someone. > > >Sam, the kit doesn't exactly match Class G30 straight out of the box, but >it >doesn't take much work at all to get a great model. Richard Hendrickson >details the modifications that he made to the Tichy kit to match a Class >G30 >gon in the May 2002 Rail Model Journal. He modeled the Klasing hand brake >from styrene and wire, and replaced the kit trucks with Proto 2000 National >Type B trucks. He also includes a photo of completed brake rigging on the >model to augment the kit's instructions. Prototype photos of PRR 362548 >and >PRR 362853 (with a good view of the hand brake) are included. > >Ted Culotta also authored an excellent article in the August 2001 Railroad >Model Craftsman including photos of PRR 343432, PRR 363797 (with a neat >cable reel load), and builders photos of PRR 362548, including a nice B end >photo. > > >Ben Hom > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. Thank _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=5BPRR=5D_PRR_ore_traffic_=28c=B4td=29?= Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 08:32:42 -0500 Ah so. But I have another bit of trivia to add to this. After the Lehigh and New England went bellyup in 1961, a bunch of their Alco RS-2s were sold and repainted a two tone blue, lettered Raymond Construction Co. and shipped to Liberia to be used in the construction of the railroad. I have pix of them in Pen Argyl awaiting shipment. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Burkhard Sanner Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 3:00 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic (cītd) Bill Volkmer scribit: > I seem to remember the pellets (looked like rabbit poop) coming from > either Liberia or Libya when the ore jennies first came out. That would be Liberia, as there is now iron ore Libya (just crude oil...). Some tangent: To ship the ore from Liberia, a railraod was built from the inland mines to the port, and some unique German/American engines used: The old and famous loco builders Henschel in Kassel (now part of Thyssen and, if I remember correctly, Bombardier) got the contract to built these engines under EMD- license, with genuine GM engines. They look a bit like SD40s, and were the heaviest single engines ever built within Germany. Quite some task to move them from the factory to the shipping port! Henschel started into the loco business with another American partnership, building its first engine called "Drache" (Dragon) in 1848 with a license from Norris (bringing me back into PRR-country!). Burkhard Sanner Germany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic as in Renovo Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 08:07:54 -0600 As a college student, I worked in a zinc smelter along south of Conway Yard on the opposite side of the Ohio River. While the smelter was not served directly be the PRR, it was served by the P&LE. The zinc ore for the plant came in standard steel box cars. So, at least in the 1960s, the shipment of ore in box cars was not all that unusual. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Volkmer [mailto:bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com] Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 4:07 PM To: 'Bill Volkmer'; zootowerprr@webtv.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic as in Renovo Should have said "consistancy" in previous post. Also I forgot to mention that there is a picture of this wreck in my book PRR Hudson to Horseshoe, in case you be interested. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bill Volkmer Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 5:01 PM To: zootowerprr@webtv.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR ore traffic as in Renovo OK sportsfans try this one on. During the 1966-68 period when I was at Renovo we had a movement of wooden CN box cars that came through ever day or two that made a turn to York, Pa. Have no idea who the consignee was but those old wooden box cars were quite an anachronisim in the 60s. Then one day, in the snow, a bunch of them derailed all over the place about half way between Renovo and Lock Haven, as usual on the opposite side of the river from the highway and a 10 mile drive by rr access road. There, sure enough was a whole bunch of these CN box cars all split open and loaded with ore that was about the constituancy of face powder. There was a front end loader scoop over each truck. The stuff was HEAVVVVVVY!. Turns out that the stuff was highly corrosive and they used wooden box cars to keep the rust down and then throw the car away when it finally disintigrated. So in addition to taking two hooks we hired a fleet of D-9 cats to plow the ore into the ground and tow the box cars off the right of way. So if you happen by MP 211 on a Sunday afternoon drive, help yourself to some ore and load up your box cars. Just make sure your models are made of WOOD! wdv -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of zootowerprr@webtv.net Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 8:06 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR ore traffic We most of know that ore is used to make steel, here's one for the books...... A good friend of mine who is a PRRT&HS member and a long time railroad engineer, who has operated hundreds of ore drags out of Whiskey Island told me this strange but true story. As an engineer moving ore from Whiskey Island, he always noticed ore being set aside not going to the steel mills. It was always picked up by trucks. Where could ore be going by truck? He later found out the a women's cosmetic company was using it as a base for "rouge" or "blush". Strange but true. So when you give wife or girlfriend a kiss, you may taste a little ore jenny in there some where. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 10:56:53 -0500 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: [PRR] PRR Kensington (Philadelphia) Terminal Folks, I'm doing a modeling project based on Pennsy's stub terminal at Front & Berks Streets in Philley. There's some very good info in the Triumph book that features the Philadelphia Terminal, including old maps and a couple of photos. But these are of an earlier period than I'm modeling, as the text states that passenger service of a local nature ended there in the 1920's. Does anyone have available for copies any track charts or detailed maps of that facility, circa 1950's era? By then it was essentially a freight station and team yard that also served local industries. Also, the elevated line on Trenton Street leading to the yard, and which reached 'solid ground' around Norris Street would be of great interest. I'd gladly buy such documents or pay for reproductions if anyone has such info. Even leads as how to obtain such info from long distance would be most helpful. This is a rather obscure corner of the Pennsy in it's home town, but a place that has some special affection for me. Thanks for your time, and regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Kensington (Philadelphia) Terminal Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 11:24:18 -0500 I seem to remember that area as being called Shakomaxin Street Yard. Had one of the ubiquitous Baldwin switchers there plus a 44 tonner. Better order up a 44 tonner for the layout. The 44 tonners had what we called "bullnose couplers" because they had no draft gear and could swivel when dragging box cars around tight curves. That's why they had the 44 tonners down there. They ran light once a month over the main line past North Phillie to the 46th St. Enginehouse for MI which gave comic relief to the many resident train watchers on the North Philadelphia station platform watching endless parades of GG-1s and coaches. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of BPX29@aol.com Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 10:57 AM To: PRR@yahoogroups.com Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR Kensington (Philadelphia) Terminal Folks, I'm doing a modeling project based on Pennsy's stub terminal at Front & Berks Streets in Philley. There's some very good info in the Triumph book that features the Philadelphia Terminal, including old maps and a couple of photos. But these are of an earlier period than I'm modeling, as the text states that passenger service of a local nature ended there in the 1920's. Does anyone have available for copies any track charts or detailed maps of that facility, circa 1950's era? By then it was essentially a freight station and team yard that also served local industries. Also, the elevated line on Trenton Street leading to the yard, and which reached 'solid ground' around Norris Street would be of great interest. I'd gladly buy such documents or pay for reproductions if anyone has such info. Even leads as how to obtain such info from long distance would be most helpful. This is a rather obscure corner of the Pennsy in it's home town, but a place that has some special affection for me. Thanks for your time, and regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Tichy Mill Gondola Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 09:47:38 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CED1.0129F990 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Bob, Jack, and company; Thanks for the great feedback on this. I am also wrestling with the needs for doing a good G30, and also G30a (from the F&C kit), and didn't know about either the articles or type of brake. I was thinking about using a spare Equipco, but as Jack points out, the majority seemed to have Klasing units. I would like to see the photos before I get going on this. It is nice to hear about how good this Tichy kit is. I have an older WE gon kit that is not nearly good enough to make a good car from. I will now retire that one. Thanks guys! Elden -----Original Message----- From: Bobspf@aol.com [mailto:Bobspf@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 4:21 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Tichy Mill Gondola ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CED1.0129F990 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] PRR Tichy Mill Gondola

Bob, Jack, and company;  Thanks for the great = feedback on this.  I am also wrestling with the needs for doing a = good G30, and also G30a (from the F&C kit), and didn't know about = either the articles or type of brake.  I was thinking about using = a spare Equipco, but as Jack points out, the majority seemed to have = Klasing units.  I would like to see the photos before I get going = on this.  It is nice to hear about how good this Tichy kit = is.  I have an older WE gon kit that is not nearly good enough to = make a good car from.  I will now retire that one.  Thanks = guys!

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Bobspf@aol.com [mailto:Bobspf@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 4:21 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Tichy Mill Gondola


---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CED1.0129F990-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 14:25:12 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Pennsy's Class FS16m - FM H16-44's From: Jerry Britton The Pennsy had 10 Fairbanks Morse H16-44's which they classed F16m. They were numbered 8807-8816 and purchased in 1952. Atlas just announced these in N scale (#8807, #8809) for delivery in June. ( http://www.atlasrr.com/highlights/n1516441.asp ) Anyone know what portion(s) of the system these roamed? I have a photocopy of a 1954 MP225 I'll have to dig out tonight. But what about other eras? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 11:28:43 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: [PRR] dormitory-chair cars --0-1977212680-1044646123=:70379 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii What exactly was the purpose of the chairs in dormitory-chair, or baggage-dormitory-chair, or other such combinations? Were these seats sold to the general public or were they primarily for crew use? What about use as a "Jim Crow" section along the lines we have been discussing? I am thinking in particular of car number 6700, a baggage-dormitory -chair car that was part of the South Wind consist between Chicago and Miami. Thanks. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1977212680-1044646123=:70379 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii What exactly was the purpose of the chairs in dormitory-chair, or baggage-dormitory-chair, or other such combinations?  Were these seats sold to the general public or were they primarily for crew use? What about use as a "Jim Crow" section along the lines we have been discussing?  I am thinking in particular of car number 6700, a baggage-dormitory -chair car that was part of the South Wind consist between Chicago and Miami.  Thanks.  Ron


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1977212680-1044646123=:70379-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pennsy's Class FS16m - FM H16-44's Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 14:48:14 -0500 They spent most of their time at Conemaugh as west slope helpers and on the Cresson coal branches. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 2:25 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Pennsy's Class FS16m - FM H16-44's The Pennsy had 10 Fairbanks Morse H16-44's which they classed F16m. They were numbered 8807-8816 and purchased in 1952. Atlas just announced these in N scale (#8807, #8809) for delivery in June. ( http://www.atlasrr.com/highlights/n1516441.asp ) Anyone know what portion(s) of the system these roamed? I have a photocopy of a 1954 MP225 I'll have to dig out tonight. But what about other eras? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 14:36:35 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy's Class FS16m - FM H16-44's From: Jerry Britton On 2/7/03 2:48 PM, Bill Volkmer (bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com) wrote: > They spent most of their time at Conemaugh as west slope helpers and on > the Cresson coal branches. Well isn't that convenient...with me modeling the Cresson Secondary! > > WDV > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry > Britton > Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 2:25 PM > To: PRR-Talk LIST > Subject: [PRR] Pennsy's Class FS16m - FM H16-44's > > > The Pennsy had 10 Fairbanks Morse H16-44's which they classed F16m. They > were numbered 8807-8816 and purchased in 1952. > > Atlas just announced these in N scale (#8807, #8809) for delivery in > June. ( http://www.atlasrr.com/highlights/n1516441.asp ) > > Anyone know what portion(s) of the system these roamed? > > I have a photocopy of a 1954 MP225 I'll have to dig out tonight. But > what about other eras? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone > Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PGrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Kensington (Philadelphia) Terminal Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 19:44:55 -0000 Barry, If you are using a new Spectrum 44tonner, it will need the botom of the trucks filing down my example grounds on Peco code 75 points.... Patrick Grace ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 3:56 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR Kensington (Philadelphia) Terminal > Folks, > I'm doing a modeling project based on Pennsy's stub terminal at Front & Berks Streets in Philley. There's some very good info in the Triumph book that features the Philadelphia Terminal, including old maps and a couple of photos. But these are of an earlier period than I'm modeling, as the text states that passenger service of a local nature ended there in the 1920's. > Does anyone have available for copies any track charts or detailed maps of that facility, circa 1950's era? By then it was essentially a freight station and team yard that also served local industries. Also, the elevated line on Trenton Street leading to the yard, and which reached 'solid ground' around Norris Street would be of great interest. > I'd gladly buy such documents or pay for reproductions if anyone has such info. Even leads as how to obtain such info from long distance would be most helpful. This is a rather obscure corner of the Pennsy in it's home town, but a place that has some special affection for me. > Thanks for your time, and regards, > Barry Peltier > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 15:00:24 -0500 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: Re: [PRR] question This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_ZJLDc7CvFF5h7dOEBI+IWA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Tasker was a Block Station and Interlocking located at the junction of the Delmarva Branch, MP 6.3 (distance from Wilmington), and the New Castle Secondary Track, MP 5.4 (Distance from Bridge 3). It was located in the Town of New Castle, DE. It was closed sometime in 1968, subsequent to removal from service of the portion of the Delmarva between West Yard and Farnhurst, the redesignation of the portion from Tasker to Porter as part of the New Castle Secondary and "relocation" of the Delmarva Branch to the Newark and Delaware City Secondary between Davis and Porter. ----- Original Message ----- From: edmund burbage To: PRR-talk@dsop.com Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 1:13 PM Subject: [PRR] question I have a PRR sign in red and gold lettering with the word TASKER on the flat metal plate sign. Can anyone tell me if this was a Station or Tower anywhere on the Pennsylvania RR System? leeprrswitchkey@msn.com Lee Burbage BMCM USCG-Ret. Ex Railroader --Boundary_(ID_ZJLDc7CvFF5h7dOEBI+IWA) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Tasker was a Block Station and Interlocking located at the junction of the Delmarva Branch, MP 6.3 (distance from Wilmington), and the New Castle Secondary Track, MP 5.4 (Distance from Bridge 3). It was located in the Town of New Castle, DE. It was closed sometime in 1968, subsequent to removal from service of the portion of the Delmarva between West Yard and Farnhurst, the redesignation of the portion from Tasker to Porter as part of the New Castle Secondary and "relocation" of the Delmarva Branch to the Newark and Delaware City Secondary between Davis and Porter. 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 1:13 PM
Subject: [PRR] question

I have a PRR sign in red and gold lettering with the word TASKER on the flat metal plate sign.
 
Can anyone tell me if this was a Station or Tower anywhere on the Pennsylvania RR System?
 
 
 
 
Lee Burbage
BMCM USCG-Ret.
Ex Railroader
--Boundary_(ID_ZJLDc7CvFF5h7dOEBI+IWA)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ronald Di Orio Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 11:28:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] dormitory-chair cars What exactly was the purpose of the chairs in dormitory-chair, or baggage-dormitory-chair, or other such combinations? Were these seats sold to the general public or were they primarily for crew use? What about use as a "Jim Crow" section along the lines we have been discussing? I am thinking in particular of car number 6700, a baggage-dormitory -chair car that was part of the South Wind consist between Chicago and Miami. Thanks. Ron --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 15:34:45 -0500 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1s and Suburban Station/Broad Street Station Short Answer -Yes GG1s did operate into/out of both Broad Street Station, and Suburban Station during the PRR and PC era. Most recently, back in the 1970s with trains consisting of old MU equipment especially during SEPTA Strikes. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Charyna" To: "PRR-Talk Posting" Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 7:14 PM Subject: [PRR] GG1s and Suburban Station/Broad Street Station > Listers, > > I've seen pictures of GG1s on the upper level of 30th Street Station. > Did they ever run into Suburban Station, or before that Broad Street > Station? > > I dont think there is or was any where to do a run-around to > change sides, so maybe not. > They could pull in engine first, unload, then deadhead out through > 30th Street, and maybe put the engine on the front, and back into > Suburban, I suppose. > > During the Broad Street Station "Chinese Wall" days, I think there > was a turntable to turn steam, and likely a runaround there as well, > so it would have been possible then. > > thanks in advance.. > -alex > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 12:36:33 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Di Orio Subject: Re: OT Wista Re: [PRR] re: Freemasonry, discrimination, and the --0-632644603-1044650193=:96428 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks for correction on cause of towers removal. Understand that they are having problems getting tenants for station, but it is still a beautiful restoration job. davep wrote:> Never saw shots of Pennsylvania Station interior before demolition, but > not only saw photographs but was inside old Union Station in Worcester, > Mass., before restoration. If you want to see a beautiful job of > restoration (they even reconstructed the exterior towers that had fallen > down years ago) The towers were TAKEN down, as they were too heavy and starting to crack... > check out links from the New Haven Historical society > site or do a search. Of course, this restoration only cost $40 million, > from what I've read. ...and they still have not got anyone inside the station using the space... -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-632644603-1044650193=:96428 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Thanks for correction on cause of towers removal.   Understand that they are having problems getting tenants for station, but it is still a beautiful restoration job.  

 davep <davep@quik.com> wrote:

> Never saw shots of Pennsylvania Station interior before demolition, but
> not only saw photographs but was inside old Union Station in Worcester,
> Mass., before restoration. If you want to see a beautiful job of
> restoration (they even reconstructed the exterior towers that had fallen
> down years ago)

The towers were TAKEN down, as they were too
heavy and starting to crack...

> check out links from the New Haven Historical society
> site or do a search. Of course, this restoration only cost $40 million,
> from what I've read.

...and they still have not got anyone inside the
station using the space...
--
best
dwp

...the net of a million lies...
Vernor Vinge
There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things.
-me


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fo Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-632644603-1044650193=:96428-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 15:51:43 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy's Class FS16m - FM H16-44's From: Jerry Britton On 2/7/03 2:48 PM, Bill Volkmer (bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com) wrote: > They spent most of their time at Conemaugh as west slope helpers and on > the Cresson coal branches. > On the east slope, ABA sets of F units were common helpers. That's 4500 hp. Did the H-16-44's run in trips, or was the west slope not as grueling, requiring perhaps only two units? As for working the coal branches, would this be a scenario where the H16-44's would marshall smaller trains up the Irvona Branch and the Cresson Secondary and its connections, to the small yard on the Cresson end of the Cresson Secondary, then larger units would pull a combined larger train onto the mains? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pennsy's Class FS16m - FM H16-44's Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 16:30:30 -0500 The east slope helpers were commonly three unit DL-702s 5400 HP. The west slope was anything they could find. Two unit FS-16s, FS-24ms, 3 unit sharks, 3 unit EH-15s, you name it. On the weekends you often would find a pair of FS-16ms laid up at the Cresson Enginehouse. I think they worked Irvona etc. during the week. I have seen just about everything take coal trains down into Altoona from Cresson, 3 unit Pas, 3 unit FF-20s, F-7s, 3 unit FS-20ms, two unit Baldwin BS-7ms. When I get the time I will scan shots of all that stuff. WDV (froze my a** off shooting diesels at Cresson in the winter time) -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 3:52 PM To: Bill Volkmer; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy's Class FS16m - FM H16-44's On 2/7/03 2:48 PM, Bill Volkmer (bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com) wrote: > They spent most of their time at Conemaugh as west slope helpers and > on the Cresson coal branches. > On the east slope, ABA sets of F units were common helpers. That's 4500 hp. Did the H-16-44's run in trips, or was the west slope not as grueling, requiring perhaps only two units? As for working the coal branches, would this be a scenario where the H16-44's would marshall smaller trains up the Irvona Branch and the Cresson Secondary and its connections, to the small yard on the Cresson end of the Cresson Secondary, then larger units would pull a combined larger train onto the mains? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Garry Spear Subject: [PRR] ?? About the New G39s Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 17:44:05 -0500 Has there been any announcement on what will the price be for the new Stewart PRR G39s. Garry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 18:26:26 EST Subject: [PRR] Week Old news: Atlas & InterMountain "O" Scale Am I the only one to notice during the past week? Alas "O" has announced acquisition of Intermountain's "O" scale line - and a new "body" of their own - Postwar rebuild of a USRA car - straight lower sill, c a new steel body. Is the Pennsy version anywhere close to an X-26 or X-29? Think they may have stenciled it X-26c "AtlasO.com" or, am I the only "O" scaler left on the list? Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 18:50:48 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] dormitory-chair cars --part1_104.26cb6cc1.2b75a058_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Those seats in combination cars were sold to passengers. It was one way of making a car that was generally considered 'non-revenue' earn a little anyway, and it added some capacity to a train that might have a modest consist of equipment. Chris Baker #1918 --part1_104.26cb6cc1.2b75a058_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Those seats in combination cars were sold to passenger= s.  It was one way of making a car that was generally considered 'non-r= evenue' earn a little anyway, and it added some capacity to a train that mig= ht have a modest consist of equipment.

Chris Baker #1918 --part1_104.26cb6cc1.2b75a058_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 17:54:20 -0600 From: "Colm Chomicky" Subject: [PRR] PRR ore traffic I would agree with Morgan Bilbo, Ferroequinologist on cementing your load. Sounds like your ore is red, so most likely it is composed of the mineral hematite, which is not strongly magnetic when compared to a common iron or ceramic magnets that may exist elsewhere in your equipment or layout. Even if your ore has stronger magnetic material such as the mineral "magnetite" you may be alright if you do test your load with a old compass. For example, take an old compass and see if the needle deflects with your ore load. Test your ore before loading because the empty car itself may have a stronger field than the ore. I suspect if your ore is all small pieces and packed randomly in your load , the magnetic field would be quite small plus different orientations cancel out the overall weak fields from each piece. Also. if the load is cemented together, that would be extra insurance that vibrating your load would keep the grains from reorienting parallel to common magnetic field (plus spills to clean up). You might want to experiment, take your compass and run it by other magnetic sources in your layout. If you have switches with solenoids etc, you may have see much stronger measurable effects compared to the ore load. By the way, hematite is also used as a pigment. Perhaps it is an ingredient to the famed Tuscan Red? -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic From: "PennsyNut" Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:20:27 -0600 Hi All! Agreed, but: IMHO if the ore is glued in a "removable" manner for placement in the ore car, then the "magnetism" will not be a problem. Plus, the added weight is well needed. i.e., removable manner means like the "loads" now available, that can be inserted and removed at will! Happy Rails! Morgan Bilbo, Ferroequinologist -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR ore traffic From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:21:30 -0600 Watch out! This ore is magnetic, and will affect uncouplers, magnets in model locomotives, and possibly other electrical devices. I'm not sure any magnetic material should be used on model railroads. -----Original Message----- From: zootowerprr@webtv.net [mailto:zootowerprr@webtv.net] Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 10:23 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ore traffic I scooped up two coffee cans full of the red ore that is still all over the place at the (now closed) ore docks in South Philly. I'm thinking of running it through some screens to get the dirt out and using it as a load in the ore cars. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 19:14:55 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy's Class FS16m - FM H16-44's --part1_7b.960f0f4.2b75a5ff_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit They were all assigned to the Pittsburgh Division. Most operated on the branches (including the Cresson and South Fork) handling coal drags. A number were assigned to Conemaugh and Cresson for this specific purpose. If I recall correctly nearly all of them were assigned to Conemaugh for maintenance. Rich Orr --part1_7b.960f0f4.2b75a5ff_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable They were all assigned to the Pittsburgh Division.&nbs= p; Most operated on the branches (including the Cresson and South Fork) hand= ling coal drags.  A number were assigned to Conemaugh and Cresson for t= his specific purpose.  If I recall correctly nearly all of them were as= signed to Conemaugh for maintenance.

Rich Orr --part1_7b.960f0f4.2b75a5ff_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 19:21:38 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Power smoke collectors? In a message dated 2/7/03 12:06:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > List, > > I recently purchased a large photo collection from the PRR Chicago > Publicity > Department files. In this collection, there are several photos taken at > the > Chicago 55th St. enginehouse. Along the engine ready tracks are several > devices that look like water spouts, but I have been told these are smoke > collectors. They look like they swing over the stack on an engine. > However, in the photos, none are in use. The engine beside them is smoking > away. > > I also have Sanborn maps of the terminal, and there is a building that is > labeled as a fan and motor room, and another labeled smoke washer. > > Is anybody familiar with this system, or how these devices worked? Did the > blowers provide suction to draw smoke from the engines? > > > Thanks, > > Andy Cich > Not familiar, but Trostel's Bradford the Railroad Town shows a plan of Bradford OH's 1919 roundhouse with a "blower room" out back. And you can just see it in an aerial view... This, plus a mention I recently read about smoke hoods and smoke abatement at N&W's Clare Yard (Mariemont OH, suburban Cincinnati), makes me wonder if vacuum-assisted smokejacks weren't more common than one might have thought. Or could this have been a Lines West thing? BTW, the Bradford facility adjoined only a small community, mostly inhabited by PRR employees, so I don't think the motivation there was "big city smoke ordinances". Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 19:17:02 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy's Class FS16m - FM H16-44's --part1_14a.1b76c987.2b75a67e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 02/07/2003 4:00:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > On the east slope, ABA sets of F units were common helpers. That's 4500 hp. > Did the H-16-44's run in trips, or was the west slope not as grueling, > requiring perhaps only two units? > Jerry, from everything I have read, when used as helpers on the west slope they an H16-44 was teamed with an H20-44 (3500 hp). Rich Orr --part1_14a.1b76c987.2b75a67e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 02/07/2003 4:00:31 PM Eastern Stand= ard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:


On the east slope, ABA sets of=20= F units were common helpers. That's 4500 hp.
I have one item left for sale on e-Bay, item = #2156403574 (4 PRR Time Tables) . Other = items will be=20 forthcoming in the near future.