From: PRR5499@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Update on BLI Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 01:37:21 +0000 Seeing is believing.......... > The following is provided as a PSA (Public Service Announcement), regardless > of who your dealer of choice is... > > Broadway Limited Imports sent out a dealer mailing dated 9/26 which > contained the following info: > > * The NYC J1e is due to arrive to them on 10/10. Thereafter it will ship to > dealers. There will be three shipments in total, so dealers may not receive > their entire shipment during the first phase. Subsequent shipments will > arrive in November and December. > > * The N&W Class A is due in March 2003 OR SOONER. > > * The PRR GG1 is due in March 2003. > > * The E7A is due in April 2003. > > * The PRR M1a/M1b is due in June 2003. > > * The USRA Heavy Mikado is due in August 2003. > > * The PRR T1 is due in October 2003. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > > "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of > Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana > products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", > the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- > Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are > providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit > our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Update on BLI Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 12:52:36 +0000 I wouldn't hold my breath on those schedules. I just got my October MR with the review and it looks like there are still teething problems. They tried to write a favorable review but 8.5 volts for a starting speed? Parts not painted on the engine? I think I'll still wait for the "field" review before jumping in on this one. > > Seeing is believing.......... > > The following is provided as a PSA (Public Service Announcement), regardless > > of who your dealer of choice is... > > > > Broadway Limited Imports sent out a dealer mailing dated 9/26 which > > contained the following info: > > > > * The NYC J1e is due to arrive to them on 10/10. Thereafter it will ship to > > dealers. There will be three shipments in total, so dealers may not receive > > their entire shipment during the first phase. Subsequent shipments will > > arrive in November and December. > > > > * The N&W Class A is due in March 2003 OR SOONER. > > > > * The PRR GG1 is due in March 2003. > > > > * The E7A is due in April 2003. > > > > * The PRR M1a/M1b is due in June 2003. > > > > * The USRA Heavy Mikado is due in August 2003. > > > > * The PRR T1 is due in October 2003. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > > > > "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of > > Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana > > products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", > > the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- > > Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are > > providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit > > our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > > ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 09:07:30 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR T & H Society --part1_aa.12a2f79e.2acaf812_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Many thanks to all for the information on the Pennsy technical & historical society and its chapters. Evan Leisey --part1_aa.12a2f79e.2acaf812_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Many thanks to all for the information on the Pennsy technical & historical society and its chapters.  

Evan Leisey --part1_aa.12a2f79e.2acaf812_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 08:16:18 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Update on BLI Jerry sez: >Broadway Limited Imports sent out a dealer mailing dated 9/26 which >contained the following info: >* The PRR GG1 is due in March 2003. > >* The PRR M1a/M1b is due in June 2003. YIKES! How did the GG1 jump over the M1? Could they be teaming up with Roco? Does anyone have ANY information on this model? Are they offering a version with the high intakes? With the "inset foot rails"? 2003 is gonna be a COSTLY year!! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 09:28:50 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Update on BLI From: Jerry Britton On 10/1/02 9:16 AM, Bruce F. Smith (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: > Jerry sez: >> Broadway Limited Imports sent out a dealer mailing dated 9/26 which >> contained the following info: >> * The PRR GG1 is due in March 2003. >> >> * The PRR M1a/M1b is due in June 2003. > > YIKES! How did the GG1 jump over the M1? Could they be teaming up with > Roco? Does anyone have ANY information on this model? Are they offering a > version with the high intakes? With the "inset foot rails"? 2003 is gonna > be a COSTLY year!! > The GG1 is all die-cast, so it is likely done at a different factory. Just conjecture on my part. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 09:33:39 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Update on BLI Now there's an after-market product idea. Plastic high intakes (and a patch to cover the as-built ones) to update the Rivarossi/AHM GG-1. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "Bruce F. Smith" wrote: > Jerry sez: > >Broadway Limited Imports sent out a dealer mailing dated 9/26 which > >contained the following info: > >* The PRR GG1 is due in March 2003. > > > >* The PRR M1a/M1b is due in June 2003. > > YIKES! How did the GG1 jump over the M1? Could they be teaming up with > Roco? Does anyone have ANY information on this model? Are they offering a > version with the high intakes? With the "inset foot rails"? 2003 is gonna > be a COSTLY year!! > > Happy Rails > Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 09:38:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Update on BLI --part1_174.f956095.2acaff54_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And now a Long Shoremen's strike to boot. Wonder why importers sometimes pull their hair out? Oct. 10 delivery of the first BLI loco --- may be not. Evan --part1_174.f956095.2acaff54_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And now a Long Shoremen's strike to boot.  Wonder why importers sometimes pull their hair out?  Oct. 10 delivery of the first BLI loco --- may be not.

Evan --part1_174.f956095.2acaff54_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Update on BLI Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 08:38:26 -0500 BLI did appear to solve one thing, according to the review. Tractive effort of 4.64 oz isn't bad. -----Original Message----- From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 7:53 AM To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com; PRR5499@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Update on BLI I wouldn't hold my breath on those schedules. I just got my October MR with the review and it looks like there are still teething problems. They tried to write a favorable review but 8.5 volts for a starting speed? Parts not painted on the engine? I think I'll still wait for the "field" review before jumping in on this one. > > Seeing is believing.......... > > The following is provided as a PSA (Public Service Announcement), regardless > > of who your dealer of choice is... > > > > Broadway Limited Imports sent out a dealer mailing dated 9/26 which > > contained the following info: > > > > * The NYC J1e is due to arrive to them on 10/10. Thereafter it will ship to > > dealers. There will be three shipments in total, so dealers may not receive > > their entire shipment during the first phase. Subsequent shipments will > > arrive in November and December. > > > > * The N&W Class A is due in March 2003 OR SOONER. > > > > * The PRR GG1 is due in March 2003. > > > > * The E7A is due in April 2003. > > > > * The PRR M1a/M1b is due in June 2003. > > > > * The USRA Heavy Mikado is due in August 2003. > > > > * The PRR T1 is due in October 2003. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > > > > "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of > > Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana > > products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", > > the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- > > Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are > > providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit > > our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > > ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 09:50:02 -0400 From: Godfrey Hall Subject: Re: [PRR] Update on BLI ndbprr@att.net wrote: > > They tried to write a favorable review but 8.5 volts for a starting speed? Having had a chance to play with the "not for resale" demo units, I found this high starting voltage not a problem (for me). I was using an MRC controller and found that the sound & lights come on at about "10" on the scale. The loco starts to move at about "25" and moves off Sllooowwwllyy up to full scale speed. Now slowly is what you make it, but I felt about 1 rpm was not bad with no load. The space on the controller between "10 & 25" allows you to slow and stop the loco (and reverse it) without shutting off the sound. Godfrey Hall ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 10:00:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Update on BLI From: Jerry Britton On 10/1/02 9:50 AM, Godfrey Hall (lcpgh@sympatico.ca) wrote: >> They tried to write a favorable review but 8.5 volts for a starting speed? > > Having had a chance to play with the "not for resale" demo units, I found this > high > starting voltage not a problem (for me). > I was using an MRC controller and found that the sound & lights come on at > about > "10" on the scale. The loco starts to move at about "25" and moves off > Sllooowwwllyy > up to full scale speed. Now slowly is what you make it, but I felt about 1 rpm > was > not bad with no load. > The space on the controller between "10 & 25" allows you to slow and stop the > loco > (and reverse it) without shutting off the sound. DCC users can also tweak the CV to adjust the starting voltage, one would assume. The review noted it could pull 21 passenger cars. That's quite an improvement over the mere four it was pulling on a level track during the convention! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 10:22:07 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Update on BLI It's interesting, the MR review of the Hudson says that it achieved 75 mph on DCC; but they never said what the DCC voltage was. They did mention that the engine's electronics shut down if voltage exceeds 20 volts. Maybe that's what they were using for DCC! I assume the 8.5 V starting voltage for DC is to provide power for all the electronics and bells and whistles. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Danger in Morning Sun Captions...grin Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 07:16:39 -0700 Doug and list, It wouldn't be the first mistake that Morning Sun has done...their SP (sorry for mentioning another road) book probably had more errors than correct captions...at least the pictures were good! And nobody says that you have to even change them at all... Bill On Mon, 30 Sep 2002 21:58:19 -0700 (PDT) Doug Kisala wrote: > Bill, list, > > You could very well be correct. The caption as I > remember it (I'm at work now and don't have Vol 2 > color guide) was that some of the H30As were built > with roller bearing trucks. Ian Fischer seems to do > pretty good research (much better than many of the > Morning Sun Books). > > Any freight car gurus with the real story, please pipe > up! > > I like my car, and changing trucks back to 70 tonners > with journal bearings wouldn't be the end of the > world. > > Doug > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 09:43:39 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Update on BLI John says: >It's interesting, the MR review of the Hudson says that it achieved >75 mph on DCC; but they never said what the DCC voltage was. >They did mention that the engine's electronics shut down if voltage >exceeds 20 volts. Maybe that's what they were using for DCC! I >assume the 8.5 V starting voltage for DC is to provide power for all >the electronics and bells and whistles. Yep, and if you read the other MR reviews, it is not uncommon for a loco with a DC constant lighting board to require 2 to 5 volts just to get everything up and running before it moves...8.5V DC seems a little high, but then again, there are lots of "bells and whistles" !! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Update on BLI Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 13:14:25 -0400 Friends: If I correctly remember some early electronics projects using a bridge rectifier to create constant and reversing locomotive headlights, a three volt drop was SOP since that was how much the diodes used up to create the voltage for the lights. Add some other electronics to the circuit with another voltage drop and 8 volts doesn't sound too bad. Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 10:43 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Update on BLI > John says: > >It's interesting, the MR review of the Hudson says that it achieved > >75 mph on DCC; but they never said what the DCC voltage was. > >They did mention that the engine's electronics shut down if voltage > >exceeds 20 volts. Maybe that's what they were using for DCC! I > >assume the 8.5 V starting voltage for DC is to provide power for all > >the electronics and bells and whistles. > > Yep, and if you read the other MR reviews, it is not uncommon for a loco > with a DC constant lighting board to require 2 to 5 volts just to get > everything up and running before it moves...8.5V DC seems a little high, > but then again, there are lots of "bells and whistles" !! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 16:55:11 -0400 From: Bill Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS PHL Chapter meeting date change Phil Ritter, the editor of the Philadelphia Chapter's newsletter, asked me to please notify members on the Internet that the next meeting will be Saturday, October 19th instead of October 12th due to church usage of the facilities. There will be a modelers meeting on the 19th (which was not scheduled for the 12th). Please pass this along. Thanks, Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] BLI voltage Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 21:51:26 +0000 Not ever having had an engine with so many electronic functions I have a couple of questions. If the engine starts moving at 8.5 volts does the motor see 8.5 volts before moving? If it does what is the long term effect on motor life to be in a stalled condition at rest? What do you see as motor life? Thanks, norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 18:25:20 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Update on BLI In a message dated 10/1/02 9:21:06 AM Central Daylight Time, bobsin@nac.net writes: << It's interesting, the MR review of the Hudson says that it achieved 75 mph on DCC; but they never said what the DCC voltage was. They did mention that the engine's electronics shut down if voltage exceeds 20 volts. >> If I understand my DCC correctly, it operates at 13.5 Volts. The speed is varied by pulse width modulation. The locomotive I saw demonstrated at the National Hobby show operated very smoothly on both DC and DCC. As I previously indicated on at least one list,maybe this one, on an NCE throttle the software in the locomotive was set up so that the display read in scale miles per hour on 128 speed step setting. I could start it at 1 mph and smoothly move it up in increments of one mph with complete control. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] BLI starting voltage question Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 18:13:48 +0000 Never having had an engine with all the electronics this purports to have I have a question about the starting voltage. Do all those faetures suck up the voltage or does the motor see 8.5 volts also? And if it does, what is the long term effect on it to sit there and not rotate? Do they burn out eventually? Thanks, norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 09:41:34 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: [PRR] CANCELLED - RailFest Dinner Get-Together Greetings to the groups, I only received two replies to the Hoss's dinner inquiry. One was planning to attend and one was not. I suspect that RailFest attendance from our groups may be down this year. Also, those who are attending may have plans to shoot the E8s Saturday evening on their westward journey. Well, we'll try again next year. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI starting voltage question Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 21:10:44 -0400 Norm: The "features" absorb the first few volts because they have a low power draw, or lower resistance/reluctance than the field coil windings in the DC motor. The motor doesn't get any voltage at all, the features create what is referred to as a "voltage drop". When the overall voltage increases enough to overcome or surpass the amount absorbed or "dropped" by the accessories, the motor will begin to turn over. Until you reach that higher voltage, there is no stall condition on the motor at all. The motor will react exactly the same at the higher voltage with the accessories as it would as if the features were not there, and it was getting all the voltage and starting at a lower voltage rate. I hope I got this right. Its been years. :-) Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:13 PM Subject: [PRR] BLI starting voltage question > Never having had an engine with all the electronics this purports to have I > have a question about the starting voltage. Do all those faetures suck up the > voltage or does the motor see 8.5 volts also? And if it does, what is the long > term effect on it to sit there and not rotate? Do they burn out eventually? > Thanks, norm Bell > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 08:32:31 EDT Subject: [PRR] FOM and TrucTrain decals, vehicles I'm going outside my era for some stuff to run at the club. Looking for the following: 1. (earlier) Did any Middle Division Fleet of Modernism decals ever materialize beyond the annual convention? If so, where? 2. (later) Does anyone make pre-1960 decals for PRR truck trailers? Years ago, I picked up one set Walthers made probably about 60 years ago---it would probably disintegrate if I used it, and one trailer won't do it. BCW decals are 1960's era. 3. Does anyone make a reasonably priced ribbed (vertical) side trailer of the era? Or a reasonably priced corrugated (horizontal) side the same? I need a length which will allow two on the 75 foot 1954 cars . I realize there is a $28 or so kit for the specific PRR trailer, but it wouldn't take many of those to break the bank. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 08:38:47 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] FOM and TrucTrain decals, vehicles Bob, Sounds like my kind of club! Where is it? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > I'm going outside my era for some stuff to run at the club. Looking for the > following: > > 1. (earlier) Did any Middle Division Fleet of Modernism decals ever > materialize beyond the annual convention? If so, where? > > 2. (later) Does anyone make pre-1960 decals for PRR truck trailers? Years > ago, I picked up one set Walthers made probably about 60 years ago---it would > probably disintegrate if I used it, and one trailer won't do it. BCW decals > are 1960's era. > > 3. Does anyone make a reasonably priced ribbed (vertical) side trailer of > the era? Or a reasonably priced corrugated (horizontal) side the same? I > need a length which will allow two on the 75 foot 1954 cars . > > I realize there is a $28 or so kit for the specific PRR trailer, but it > wouldn't take many of those to break the bank. > > Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 09:17:28 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Update on BLI 0100,0100,0100Bob Z. said DCC is 13.5 volts; this is probably a typical value for the peak (plus and minus) voltage, but NMRA S-9.1 states that the RMS value measured at the track shall not exceed by more than two volts the voltage specified in standard S9 for the applicable scale. So this is scale-dependent, but I don't have S9 handy. S- 9.1 goes on to say that in no case shall the peak amplitude exceed plus and minus 22 volts. Maybe such high values are only used in the large scales. The BLI locomotives probably have a pretty sophisticated way of using the applied voltages, and may treat DCC totally different from DC; they might for example have a series "diode drop" approach to DC, but on DCC not "waste" the 8.5 volts, since on DCC there is always plenty of voltage on the track to operate lights and whatnot. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Painting of freight cars - last gap filled Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 09:06:03 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C26A2D.9B6EAEF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi all! I didn't think that Jack could find it, but he did! The "missing" piece of the puzzle was the 1955 painting instructions (no, not lettering, just painting), which he managed to lay his hands on recently. This means we can put together the PRR's intentions for painting freight cars all the way from 1953 to 1961 (and later) without gaps. I will post the high points later, but it appears that several questions might have been answered. Key among these was the issue of roof painting and interior painting of open top cars. It appears that it was PRR's intention to get all of their new boxcars and covered hoppers' roofs (which were by this time almost exclusively galvanized steel) coated with asphaltum as the final coat. Repaints were simply painted over with fc color, presumably if the asphaltum didn't require maintenance. So, why were there so many cars that did not adhere to this practice? I think we need to talk to car shops folks to find this one out. There ARE clearly cars that did not get a coat of asphaltum. Why? It also appears that after a certain date (1953 at the latest), only new hoppers and gons had their interiors painted. ALL repaints and rebuilds were unpainted unless new steel was applied. Makes sense from a cost standpoint! What it means to us as modelers is a choice. If your cars are "unpainted since new" consider some "almost black" roofs and interior paint on open top cars (but not over wood). If repainted, you can do "peeling fc color over black/brown" or "completely peeled off paint showing asphaltum color", "peeling paint off of bare galvanized", or fc color alone. Your choice. Of course, it'd always be a good idea to check all the available photos of your car of choice to see what things appeared to be. Makes modeling more interesting, doesn't it? More later, and best of the day, Elden P.S. Rob S., get me your address! ------_=_NextPart_001_01C26A2D.9B6EAEF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Painting of freight cars - last gap filled

Hi all!
I didn't think that Jack could find it, but he = did!  The "missing" piece of the puzzle was the 1955 = painting instructions (no, not lettering, just painting), which he = managed to lay his hands on recently.  This means we can put = together the PRR's intentions for painting freight cars all the way = from 1953 to 1961 (and later) without gaps.  I will post the high = points later, but it appears that several questions might have been = answered.  Key among these was the issue of roof painting and = interior painting of open top cars.

It appears that it was PRR's intention to get all of = their new boxcars and covered hoppers' roofs (which were by this time = almost exclusively galvanized steel) coated with asphaltum as the final = coat.  Repaints were simply painted over with fc color, presumably = if the asphaltum didn't require maintenance.

So, why were there so many cars that did not adhere = to this practice?  I think we need to talk to car shops folks to = find this one out.  There ARE clearly cars that did not get a coat = of asphaltum.  Why?

It also appears that after a certain date (1953 at = the latest), only new hoppers and gons had their interiors = painted.  ALL repaints and rebuilds were unpainted unless new = steel was applied.  Makes sense from a cost standpoint!

What it means to us as modelers is a choice.  If = your cars are "unpainted since new" consider some = "almost black" roofs and interior paint on open top cars (but = not over wood).  If repainted, you can do "peeling fc color = over black/brown" or "completely peeled off paint showing = asphaltum color", "peeling paint off of bare = galvanized", or fc color alone.  Your choice.  Of = course, it'd always be a good idea to check all the available photos of = your car of choice to see what things appeared to be.  Makes = modeling more interesting, doesn't it?

More later, and best of the day,
Elden
P.S. Rob S., get me your address!

------_=_NextPart_001_01C26A2D.9B6EAEF0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 13:03:02 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Contact for NKP Car Co. Hello y'all, Does anyone have either a telephone or email contact for NKP Car Co., producer of brass car sides? I need to contact them about an order which appears to have gone astray, since they've cashed my check and I don't have the goods! In this day of instant communication, I'd hate to have to just send them a letter (I do have their snail mail)! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: Re: [PRR] Budd doodlebug Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:11:05 -0400 Norm, I just received the latest issue of the PRRT&HS's Philla chapter's Highline (vol 18 #2, autumn 2002) and it has an article about these cars. It has lots of photos, a reprint of a PR publication about them and pretty good plans. The cars were #'s 4688 & 4689. Originally classed OEG125 and OEG125a. They were later reclassed GEG125 & GEG125a and finally MPB48 & GEG190. The PRR floorplan diagram for the MPB48 is on my website @ http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=mpb48_fp.gif You should be able to get a copy from them. Check their website at: http://www.prrths.com/Phila_New_Index.htm Rob ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Budd doodlebug From: Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 13:08:39 +0000 Budd made a stainless steel fluted self propelled car with rubber tires that the PRR tried on the Norristown branch. Trains had a brief article on it many years ago. It was a disaster because it kept getting flat tires. Does anybody know of any good pictures or drawings that I could use to build one? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Garry Spear Subject: RE: [PRR] Painting of freight cars - last gap filled Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 16:08:40 -0400 Ok. Then is seems that the roofs of many of the new cars were not painted or covered with asphaltum. What color would the roof and end walks be painted or not painted. The new Branchline kits have black plastic roof and end walks. Were these painted or non painted metal or non painted wood. The question is what color do I paint these parts when I assemble these cars? Garry Spear -----Original Message----- From: ELDEN GATWOOD [SMTP:ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 12:06 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Painting of freight cars - last gap filled Hi all! I didn't think that Jack could find it, but he did! The "missing" piece of the puzzle was the 1955 painting instructions (no, not lettering, just painting), which he managed to lay his hands on recently. This means we can put together the PRR's intentions for painting freight cars all the way from 1953 to 1961 (and later) without gaps. I will post the high points later, but it appears that several questions might have been answered. Key among these was the issue of roof painting and interior painting of open top cars. It appears that it was PRR's intention to get all of their new boxcars and covered hoppers' roofs (which were by this time almost exclusively galvanized steel) coated with asphaltum as the final coat. Repaints were simply painted over with fc color, presumably if the asphaltum didn't require maintenance. So, why were there so many cars that did not adhere to this practice? I think we need to talk to car shops folks to find this one out. There ARE clearly cars that did not get a coat of asphaltum. Why? It also appears that after a certain date (1953 at the latest), only new hoppers and gons had their interiors painted. ALL repaints and rebuilds were unpainted unless new steel was applied. Makes sense from a cost standpoint! What it means to us as modelers is a choice. If your cars are "unpainted since new" consider some "almost black" roofs and interior paint on open top cars (but not over wood). If repainted, you can do "peeling fc color over black/brown" or "completely peeled off paint showing asphaltum color", "peeling paint off of bare galvanized", or fc color alone. Your choice. Of course, it'd always be a good idea to check all the available photos of your car of choice to see what things appeared to be. Makes modeling more interesting, doesn't it? More later, and best of the day, Elden P.S. Rob S., get me your address! << File: ATT00000.htm >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR-Modeling] RE: [PRR] Painting of freight cars - last gap Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 15:03:58 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C26A5F.9B50DB00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" OK, I seemed to have missed the point a bit. I would speculate that the ends ONLY (that overhanging the end) of the roofwalk would be fc color, with the part centered over the roof black. As-built. Repaints would be fc color all over. There would also be overspray from the painting of the sides that would tend to "feather" the color over the black, particularly on that portion of the roof that bends over and attaches to the sides. End walks might have a bit of overspray, but they are on the roof, so overwhelmingly black. Sound right? Elden -----Original Message----- From: Garry Spear [mailto:gspear01@erols.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 1:09 PM To: 'ELDEN GATWOOD'; PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com Subject: [PRR-Modeling] RE: [PRR] Painting of freight cars - last gap filled Ok. Then is seems that the roofs of many of the new cars were not painted or covered with asphaltum. What color would the roof and end walks be painted or not painted. The new Branchline kits have black plastic roof and end walks. Were these painted or non painted metal or non painted wood. The question is what color do I paint these parts when I assemble these cars? Garry Spear -----Original Message----- From: ELDEN GATWOOD [SMTP:ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 12:06 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Painting of freight cars - last gap filled Hi all! I didn't think that Jack could find it, but he did! The "missing" piece of the puzzle was the 1955 painting instructions (no, not lettering, just painting), which he managed to lay his hands on recently. This means we can put together the PRR's intentions for painting freight cars all the way from 1953 to 1961 (and later) without gaps. I will post the high points later, but it appears that several questions might have been answered. Key among these was the issue of roof painting and interior painting of open top cars. It appears that it was PRR's intention to get all of their new boxcars and covered hoppers' roofs (which were by this time almost exclusively galvanized steel) coated with asphaltum as the final coat. Repaints were simply painted over with fc color, presumably if the asphaltum didn't require maintenance. So, why were there so many cars that did not adhere to this practice? I think we need to talk to car shops folks to find this one out. There ARE clearly cars that did not get a coat of asphaltum. Why? It also appears that after a certain date (1953 at the latest), only new hoppers and gons had their interiors painted. ALL repaints and rebuilds were unpainted unless new steel was applied. Makes sense from a cost standpoint! What it means to us as modelers is a choice. If your cars are "unpainted since new" consider some "almost black" roofs and interior paint on open top cars (but not over wood). If repainted, you can do "peeling fc color over black/brown" or "completely peeled off paint showing asphaltum color", "peeling paint off of bare galvanized", or fc color alone. Your choice. Of course, it'd always be a good idea to check all the available photos of your car of choice to see what things appeared to be. Makes modeling more interesting, doesn't it? More later, and best of the day, Elden P.S. Rob S., get me your address! << File: ATT00000.htm >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Sharing and enjoying our memories and materials and methods to better reproduce the PRR in miniature ! To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-Modeling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . ------_=_NextPart_001_01C26A5F.9B50DB00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
OK, I seemed to have missed the point a bit.
I would speculate that the ends ONLY (that overhanging the end) of the roofwalk would be fc color, with the part centered over the roof black.  As-built.
Repaints would be fc color all over.  There would also be overspray from the painting of the sides that would tend to "feather" the color over the black, particularly on that portion of the roof that bends over and attaches to the sides.  End walks might have a bit of overspray, but they are on the roof, so overwhelmingly black.  Sound right?
Elden
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Garry Spear [mailto:gspear01@erols.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 1:09 PM
To: 'ELDEN GATWOOD'; PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PRR-Modeling] RE: [PRR] Painting of freight cars - last gap filled

Ok.  Then is seems that the roofs of many of the new cars were not painted
or covered with asphaltum.  What color would the roof and end walks be
painted or not painted.  The new Branchline kits have black plastic roof
and end walks.  Were these painted or non painted metal or non painted
wood.  The question is what color do I paint these parts when I assemble
these cars?

Garry Spear

-----Original Message-----
From:      ELDEN GATWOOD [SMTP:ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com]
Sent:      Wednesday, October 02, 2002 12:06 PM
To:      PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com
Subject:      RE: [PRR] Painting of freight cars - last gap filled

Hi all!
I didn't think that Jack could find it, but he did!  The "missing" piece of
the puzzle was the 1955 painting instructions (no, not lettering, just
painting), which he managed to lay his hands on recently.  This means we
can
put together the PRR's intentions for painting freight cars all the way
from
1953 to 1961 (and later) without gaps.  I will post the high points later,
but it appears that several questions might have been answered.  Key among
these was the issue of roof painting and interior painting of open top
cars.
It appears that it was PRR's intention to get all of their new boxcars and
covered hoppers' roofs (which were by this time almost exclusively
galvanized steel) coated with asphaltum as the final coat.  Repaints were
simply painted over with fc color, presumably if the asphaltum didn't
require maintenance.
So, why were there so many cars that did not adhere to this practice?  I
think we need to talk to car shops folks to find this one out.  There ARE
clearly cars that did not get a coat of asphaltum.  Why?
It also appears that after a certain date (1953 at the latest), only new
hoppers and gons had their interiors painted.  ALL repaints and rebuilds
were unpainted unless new steel was applied.  Makes sense from a cost
standpoint!
What it means to us as modelers is a choice.  If your cars are "unpainted
since new" consider some "almost black" roofs and interior paint on open
top
cars (but not over wood).  If repainted, you can do "peeling fc color over
black/brown" or "completely peeled off paint showing asphaltum color",
"peeling paint off of bare galvanized", or fc color alone.  Your choice.
Of
course, it'd always be a good idea to check all the available photos of
your
car of choice to see what things appeared to be.  Makes modeling more
interesting, doesn't it?
More later, and best of the day,
Elden
P.S. Rob S., get me your address!
<< File: ATT00000.htm >>


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------_=_NextPart_001_01C26A5F.9B50DB00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] SD-7 Decal Question Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 23:40:18 -0500 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C26A6D.1076DD00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gentlemen: First, I would like to thank all you replied to my question regarding the= radio antennas used on SD-7's and SD-9's. It really helped me out. I do have one question regarding the availability of the EMD biulders pla= tes in decal form. I am aware that Micro Scale has produced a set for eng= ines in general (87-0134). I have thsi sheet; however, there are only eno= ugh EMD decals (6), to do three engines. =20 My question is do you know if there are other producers of the EMD builde= rs plate (old version) in decal form? =20 TIA Ted M. Andrews ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C26A6D.1076DD00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gentlemen:
 
First, I would like to thank all you replied to= my question regarding the radio antennas used on SD-7's and SD-9's. It r= eally helped me out.
 
I do have one question = regarding the availability of the EMD biulders plates in decal form. I am= aware that Micro Scale has produced a set for engines in general (8= 7-0134). I have thsi sheet; however, there are only enough EMD decals (6)= , to do three engines.
 
My question is do yo= u know if there are other producers of the EMD builders plate (old versio= n) in decal form?
 
TIA
 
Ted M. Andrews

------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C26A6D.1076DD00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 21:36:48 -0700 (PDT) From: andy mulhollen Subject: [PRR] K4 #1361 Smokestack on eBay Greetings to the List, I just wanted to remind everyone of this weekends Railfest here in Altoona. We still have excursion seats left for sale. The origional smokestack from the K4 #1361 has been placed on eBay. There is a reserve. This stack had to be replaced as it was cracked and worn where it attatched to the smokebox (which also has been replaced). Please pass this info on to whomever you feel may be interested in it. Proceeds from this sale will be used in the K4 restoration project. Dr Andy Mulhollen Secretary Board of Directors Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] tunnels Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 12:50:58 +0000 I was thinking about tunnels and can only come up with five locations on the PRR: 1. the river tunnels into NYC 2. Baltimore 3. Spruce Creek 4. Tunnel Hill 5. Port Road Out here in the midwest people get nose bleeds from stepping up onto curbs so I doubt there are any this way but are there any others? That doesn't seem to be too many for the mileage the PRR had. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:04:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 Decal Question Ted, I know of no other "Hot Dog" builders plates. I think it is a ploy from Micro Scale to get you to keep buying sheet after sheet of decals by supplying you only a limited few on a sheet. It would be so simple for them to produce a complete sheet of hot dogs (how many would fit on a sheet- about 200 pair?). Even a small MC sheet could hold 50 pair! But then again, that would make too much sense. They rather have you spend $5.00 after $5.00 after $5.00.......... Just my $5.00 worth.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 09:07:14 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels From: Jerry Britton On 10/3/02 8:50 AM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > I was thinking about tunnels and can only come up with five locations on the > PRR: > 1. the river tunnels into NYC > 2. Baltimore > 3. Spruce Creek > 4. Tunnel Hill > 5. Port Road At the west end of the Rockville Bridge there are several underpasses that I think really should be termed "tunnels". I am not referring to the flyover of the passenger mains over the one set of Enola leads (which has a bridge structure), but rather the Enola leads closer to the river that go under the freight mains. Their construction does not include a bridge, but rather tunnel portals and tunnel linings, with earth above and around them. I've walked through two of them. They are tunnels. A technicality! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:08:09 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels In a message dated 10/3/02 7:58:27 AM Central Daylight Time, ndbprr@att.net writes: << are there any others? >> I don't know if it is long enough to qualify as a tunnel, but isn't the produce or team track yard in Washington reached by an underground (or underbuilding) arrangement of some sort? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:10:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels Norm, Add these 3 also: 1. Coming off the Port Perry Branch over the Mon River in Pittsburgh heading east. 2 Coming off the Panhandle Bridge in Pittsburgh over the Mon (tachnically not a land tunnel but it does tunnel under the city to the station)(now used as a mass transit bridge) 3. Goul (spelling) Tunnel on the Panhandle in Ohio......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:20:59 -0400 Norm, There's also the Virginia Avenue tunnel in Washington, DC. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 8:50 AM Subject: [PRR] tunnels > I was thinking about tunnels and can only come up with five locations on the > PRR: > 1. the river tunnels into NYC > 2. Baltimore > 3. Spruce Creek > 4. Tunnel Hill > 5. Port Road > > Out here in the midwest people get nose bleeds from stepping up onto curbs so I > doubt there are any this way but are there any others? That doesn't seem to be > too many for the mileage the PRR had. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:24:05 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels One of the divisions I was responsible for at one time, extended from "the west portal of Gould Tunnel." It was near Pittsburgh, as I recall. Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 09:26:47 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels There is the tunnel under the US Capitol Plaza from Union Station to L'Enfant Plaza area. It is used by all passenger trains from the PRR going south of DC. Was that PRR or Washington Union Terminal Co? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/3/02 7:58:27 AM Central Daylight Time, ndbprr@att.net > writes: > > << are there any others? >> > > I don't know if it is long enough to qualify as a tunnel, but isn't the > produce or team track yard in Washington reached by an underground (or > underbuilding) arrangement of some sort? > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 Decal Question Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:38:11 -0400 For HO, try the Micro Scale mini set #4056. This is just builders plates - nine different EMD and GE plates - 10 each. Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com Featuring over 10,000 IN-STOCK model railroad items 90A Jersey Avenue New Brunswick, NJ 08901 732-565-1555 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 09:45:51 -0400 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels Add the Saltsburg tunnel (new and old alignments) on the Connemaugh Division. Radebaugh on the Pittsburgh Division near Greensburg (daylighted when the track was realigned). Also one remaining on the Chartiers branch. There were two but one was daylighted when the state highway overhead was rebuilt. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 09:52:40 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels From: Jerry Britton On 10/3/02 8:50 AM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > I was thinking about tunnels and can only come up with five locations on the > PRR: > 1. the river tunnels into NYC > 2. Baltimore > 3. Spruce Creek > 4. Tunnel Hill > 5. Port Road There's a very old tunnel...no longer in use...just north of Columbia, Pa., on the Royalton Branch. It's underneath "Chickie's Rock". I think the name is "Flat Rock Tunnel", or is my memory confusing the name with the one on the Reading line along the Schuylkill expressway in Philadelphia? Where's Bruce Smith when you need him? ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 10:06:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels Norm Just remembered another one. Up near Red Bank, Pa. in Phillipsburg? Phillipston? Pa. I was there several years ago to check out the still standing (was then , not sure now) Coaling Tower. The tunnel is located right at the Phillipsburg? yard and I believe it heads north to Red Bank.....hasn't been in service since late PC or early CR days.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 07:09:41 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels --- SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > Add the Saltsburg tunnel (new and old alignments) on the Conemaugh > Division. Avonmore (old alignment), also Hyde Park, abandoned sometime before WW2. > Radebaugh on the Pittsburgh Division near Greensburg (daylighted > when the track was realigned). Actually, two tunnels at Radebaugh. The older one is still there but inaccessable. Once upon at time, downtown Greensburg. There is still a Tunnel Street in Greensburg but the tunnel was daylighted. Also Donahoe, before the 1900-1910 relocation of the main line. > Also one remaining on the Chartiers branch. There were two but one > was daylighted when the state highway overhead was rebuilt. On the Low Grade Branch of the Allegheny Division: Sabula (through the divide between Susquehanna and Ohio watersheds) and a short curved tunnel at Caledonia. On the main line of the Allegheny Division, tunnels at Brady's Bend and two other places (names escape me at the moment) which avoided loops in the Allegheny River. The RR originally followed around the loops, the tunnels were a later improvement. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 10:20:39 -0400 From: Alex Charyna Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels Flat-rock was a Reading Tunnel. It's visible from the Schuylkill Exp a few miles north of the Belmont Ave exit. You can read the stone at one of the entrances. I believe it was from 1840.. Philly Terminal Tunnels: >From 22nd Street (i think) into Suburban Station. It was a spur in PRR times, going to 16th street. Now it goes clear through under the old Reading Terminal and out at 9th Street north of Vine. Also, coming out of the upper level of 30th Street Station, the tracks headed South towards Arsenal go underneath 32nd Street for a few blocks. Also in that tunnel is a turnout which takes you out into the Race Street/Powelton Yard. Last I'd seen it, it looked in disrepair so I doubt Septa has used it. If ever. -alex On Thu, 03 Oct 2002 09:52:40 -0400 Jerry Britton wrote: > On 10/3/02 8:50 AM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > > > I was thinking about tunnels and can only come up with five locations on the > > PRR: > > 1. the river tunnels into NYC > > 2. Baltimore > > 3. Spruce Creek > > 4. Tunnel Hill > > 5. Port Road > > There's a very old tunnel...no longer in use...just north of Columbia, Pa., > on the Royalton Branch. It's underneath "Chickie's Rock". I think the name > is "Flat Rock Tunnel", or is my memory confusing the name with the one on > the Reading line along the Schuylkill expressway in Philadelphia? > > Where's Bruce Smith when you need him? ;-) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] tunnels Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 14:36:16 +0000 Looks like we are going to prtty much limit this to Pennsylvania except for Baltimore and DC. I wonder if there was ever a PRR generated list or department to maintain them? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 10:51:31 -0400 From: Christopher Hoess Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels On Thu, Oct 03, 2002 at 10:20:39AM -0400, Alex Charyna wrote: > > Also, coming out of the upper level of 30th Street Station, the tracks > headed South towards Arsenal go underneath 32nd Street for a few blocks. > Also in that tunnel is a turnout which takes you out into the Race > Street/Powelton Yard. > > Last I'd seen it, it looked in disrepair so I doubt Septa has used it. > If ever. That's one end of the old Gray's Ferry Branch, which has been abandoned for at least ten years and likely more. I notice no one has yet mentioned the Elizabethtown cut, which is a daylighted tunnel (although it may have been opened up in the Harrisburg, Portsmouth, Mt. Joy & Lancaster days) or the three tunnels on the "Port Road", Wildcat, Frazer, and Williams. The first two were south of the Pennsylvania line. For that matter, the responses I've seen have also admitted the two tunnels on the Schuylkill Valley Branch at Phoenixville and St. Clair, and (of course!) the New York tubes. -- Chris Hoess ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 10:57:53 -0400 Andy, That's the Virginia Avenue Tunnel I was referring to. It was a PRR tunnel leading to the Long Bridge over the Potomac, which was owned by PRR. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew S. Miller" To: Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:26 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels > There is the tunnel under the US Capitol Plaza from Union Station to L'Enfant > Plaza area. It is used by all passenger trains from the PRR going south of > DC. Was that PRR or Washington Union Terminal Co? > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 10/3/02 7:58:27 AM Central Daylight Time, ndbprr@att.net > > writes: > > > > << are there any others? >> > > > > I don't know if it is long enough to qualify as a tunnel, but isn't the > > produce or team track yard in Washington reached by an underground (or > > underbuilding) arrangement of some sort? > > > > Bob Zoeller > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > -- > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 10:52:29 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Looks like we are going to prtty much limit this to > Pennsylvania except for Baltimore and DC. Virginia Ave was not PRR, being either B&O or Washington Terminal (hint: Look at signals: CPL, unless changed... 8)>>) > I wonder if there was ever a PRR generated list or department to > maintain them? I'm guessing this was per division? Also: Has anyone mentioned Gallitzin? best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: [PRR] PRR districts, regions, divions Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 10:37:35 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C26AC8.E302A500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gents; Is there a "list", description or something, describing all the PRR = regions, divisions and so on? Earl Myers Lines West ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C26AC8.E302A500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gents;
 Is there a "list", description or = something,=20 describing all the PRR regions, divisions and so on?
Earl Myers
Lines West
------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C26AC8.E302A500-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 11:08:20 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels Many of the urban tunnels mentioned contained track that was originally at ground level. The track between 30th Street Station and Suburban Station used to be on the surface until the old Chinese Wall was torn down. Is it still a "tunnel" when the track is roofed over to allow construction on the air rights? A hole through a mountain is a tunnel. A tube under a river is a tunnel. But, if you fill in a crease or a valley, is it still a tunnel? Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Conan Evans" Subject: RE: [PRR] tunnels Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 11:23:10 -0400 On the Northern Central, is/was there a short, curving tunnel? I believe I've seen a pic in Trains, cir early '70's of a PC - E and (1) pass car exiting this tunnel. The caption mentioned how the '72 Agnes storm took this area of the line out. I'll check my archive. Conan Evans Bristow, VA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 11:24:47 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR districts, regions, divions From: Jerry Britton On 10/3/02 10:37 AM, Earl Myers (emyers5@neo.rr.com) wrote: > Is there a "list", description or something, describing all the PRR regions, > divisions and so on? Not over all time, but the organization from 1941 to 1968 is at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/prr_structure_1941-1968.html ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 10:46:14 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels Jerry mentioned >There's a very old tunnel...no longer in use...just north of Columbia, Pa., >on the Royalton Branch. It's underneath "Chickie's Rock". I think the name >is "Flat Rock Tunnel", or is my memory confusing the name with the one on >the Reading line along the Schuylkill expressway in Philadelphia? > >Where's Bruce Smith when you need him? ;-) Remarkably enough for me (the perfesser), I was teaching this morning ! Now, whetehr the students were doing any learning is another whole topic!!! The tunnel Jerry described was on the Columia branch, just north of Columbia PA. I've heard it called "Chickies tunnel", but Chickies Rock is actually furhter to the north. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 10:53:52 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: RE: [PRR] Contact for NKP Car Co. Howdy, I wanted to thank all of you who sent contact information for NKP Car Co. They have a nice web site at: http://www.nkpcarco.com/ and produce quite a variety of passenger car kits. Among their latest, and the one I'm waiting for is a PRR PB70d, a modernized PB70 combine, that I hope to paint in the "Fleet of Modernism" scheme. I got a VERY fast response from NKP and they assured me that the kits await one part from a resin caster, and since I have an order pending with that company too, and they have a BIG meet coming in Naperville at the end of this month, I should have my kits form both sources in November! Now all we need if for Middle Division to release their new FOM decal set! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 11:57:52 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels From: Jerry Britton On 10/3/02 11:23 AM, Conan Evans (cevans@onlinesecurities.net) wrote: > On the Northern Central, is/was there a short, curving tunnel? I believe > I've seen a pic in Trains, cir early '70's of a PC - E and (1) pass car > exiting this tunnel. The caption mentioned how the '72 Agnes storm took > this area of the line out. I'll check my archive. > YES! I can't believe I didn't remember it! Yes, it's just south of York, Pa. Was originally two track but is currently one track and a rail trail. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] tunnels Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:12:02 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C26AF7.9BAFC7D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" yes, there were also numerous tunnels along the Panhandle between Pittsburgh and Wheeling, including the one right off the Ohio River near Corliss that all the passenger stuff was sent through. Port Perry was (and is) between Pitcairn yard and the Monongahela River (and Port Perry bridge)/Monongahela Division/Branch. PRR/PC/Conrail each had large format books full of track plans that illustrated each structure or obstacle that crossed, in any way (over/under/across), every stretch of track on the railroad. These were for the maintenance crews. They contain really interesting info like date built, construction, type of crossing, etc. This includes tunnels, each of which has a name. Back in earlier days, PRR maintained gobs of pedestrian crossing bridges, too. These were installed in the heyday when PRR was looking to avoid more at-grade pedestrian accidents. As cars became more prevalent in the post-war period, these little bridges (most iron in my area) were much less utilized and many fell into disrepair. Regardless, each Region and Division had to keep them minimally maintained to prevent folks from falling through the boards and all. I remember dozens of them that had been closed down in late PRR and PC days by boarding off the ends, that we explored all the same. Each one of them appears on my old track charts. As part of the grade separation efforts, there were also numerous "tunnels" under many stretches of track that were created by the PRR to minimize at-grade crossings of vehicles, thereby minimizing stoppage of trains. But, I digress... Elden ------_=_NextPart_001_01C26AF7.9BAFC7D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] tunnels

yes, there were also numerous tunnels along the = Panhandle between Pittsburgh and Wheeling, including the one right off = the Ohio River near Corliss that all the passenger stuff was sent = through.  Port Perry was (and is) between Pitcairn yard and the = Monongahela River (and Port Perry bridge)/Monongahela = Division/Branch.

PRR/PC/Conrail each had large format books full of = track plans that illustrated each structure or obstacle that crossed, = in any way (over/under/across), every stretch of track on the = railroad.  These were for the maintenance crews.  They = contain really interesting info like date built, construction, type of = crossing, etc.  This includes tunnels, each of which has a = name.  Back in earlier days, PRR maintained gobs of pedestrian = crossing bridges, too.  These were installed in the heyday when = PRR was looking to avoid more at-grade pedestrian accidents.  As = cars became more prevalent in the post-war period, these little bridges = (most iron in my area) were much less utilized and many fell into = disrepair.  Regardless, each Region and Division had to keep them = minimally maintained to prevent folks from falling through the boards = and all.  I remember dozens of them that had been closed down in = late PRR and PC days by boarding off the ends, that we explored all the = same.  Each one of them appears on my old track charts.  As = part of the grade separation efforts, there were also numerous = "tunnels" under many stretches of track that were created by = the PRR to minimize at-grade crossings of vehicles, thereby minimizing = stoppage of trains.  But, I digress...

Elden

------_=_NextPart_001_01C26AF7.9BAFC7D0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 12:27:05 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels Dare I nominate the Long Island Rail Road Bay Ridge Branch, which disappears underground for a fair piece in the vicinity of East New York, passing under the LIRR Atlantic Branch? Not sure how this was constructed, whether this could have been a cut at one time, but there is a decent size hill over the northern part of the "tunnel." It may have been bored. Had catenary in its glory days. Anybody know about the tunnel? And of course there's most of the Atlantic Branch itself, clearly a cut-and-cover affair. The line is forced to the surface at East New York to clear the Bay Ridge line crossing beneath. Hey, those are still real position-light signals, at least on the elevated portions! John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 11:21:55 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: Budd doodlebug From: John Sheets Norm PBS did a show entitled "streamliners" they showed construction of the unit at the Budd Company plant and some finished photos of it on the Reading. It was RDG #72 It was used primarily on the New Hope Branch but had significant problems, esp with tires. Believe the PRR unit was the same or similar one. the floorplan Rob posted looks similar to the RDG unit, but the PRR MPB48 has a mail compartment. I have tape of the PBS show, and will send you a separate email with a photo of the RDG unit attached. Unfotunately photo is jot very clear, but will give you a general idea of the shape and outside config of the unit I know you are in Chicago, I will not be able to attend this w/e kickoff, but could send you the tape to borrow. You might also want to check the PBS website for resources. search under 'streamliners' Regards John -- John Sheets Vice President Sales & Marketing MPA Inc. 473 Dunham Road Saint Charles, Illinois 60174 PH: (630) 584-8556 Cell: (708) 710-3904 FAX: (630) 762-1452 Email: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RBurg74133@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 12:28:10 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels --part1_76.237b8cf6.2acdca1a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How about Radebaugh it was daylighted in the 50's? Ray Burghart SPF for over 50 years --part1_76.237b8cf6.2acdca1a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How about Radebaugh it was daylighted in the 50's?

Ray Burghart
SPF for over 50 years --part1_76.237b8cf6.2acdca1a_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 12:30:04 -0400 From: Zak Subject: [PRR] F7A Antenna Support Stand Query This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_fOiWQbyUBtGv8X+zFRmLrA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hello, List. I have started to modify a couple of Athearn F7As for a static display, and am using many of the items listed in "Greg Martin Details the Athearn Genesis F7's" article in Keystone Crossings. I have a couple of questions regarding the Cal-Scale (190-402 F-unit) antenna support stand package. I bought two packages. Each has only 13 supports. The photo with each package shows 14 supports. How many supports did the F7A have? If the photo is wrong and only 12 were used, fine, but could anyone direct me to a site with photos and/or diagrams showing the actual locations of the stands? If the photo is correct, could anyone give me either the web address or the e-mail address for Cal-Scale, as I'd like to get replacement packages. Thanks in advance. Zak --Boundary_(ID_fOiWQbyUBtGv8X+zFRmLrA) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Hello, List.
 
I have started to modify a couple of Athearn F7As for a static display, and am using many of the items listed in "Greg Martin Details the Athearn Genesis F7's" article in Keystone Crossings.
 
I have a couple of questions regarding the Cal-Scale (190-402 F-unit) antenna support stand package.
 
I bought two packages.  Each has only 13 supports.  The photo with each package shows 14 supports.
 
How many supports did the F7A have?
 
If the photo is wrong and only 12 were used, fine, but could anyone direct me to a site with photos and/or diagrams showing the actual locations of the stands?
 
If the photo is correct, could anyone give me either the web address or the e-mail address for Cal-Scale, as I'd like to get replacement packages.
 
Thanks in advance.
 
Zak
--Boundary_(ID_fOiWQbyUBtGv8X+zFRmLrA)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 12:49:50 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels There were 5 tunnels on the Lake Division's Marietta Branch, between Bayard and Marietta. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: STEVEGG1@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 13:03:44 EDT Subject: [PRR] tunnels --part1_64.264faabb.2acdd270_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Howard Tunnel on the Northern Central south of York. In fact, would this qualify as the oldest RR tunnel in the US? Steve Panopoulos --part1_64.264faabb.2acdd270_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Howard Tunnel on the Northern Central south of York. In fact, would this qualify as the oldest RR tunnel in the US?
Steve Panopoulos --part1_64.264faabb.2acdd270_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 10:23:18 -0700 From: Ron Dugas Subject: [PRR] A little more Radebaugh info. was Re: Tunnels Hi NDB, All, The once extant tunnels at Radebaugh, were just west of milepost 323.2? >From my 1953 track chart it seems track 1 converged with track 2 and, along with track 3, went through an 850' double track bore while track 4 diverged to the north and went through a separate 450' single track bore. I believe that one (both?) of these bores were daylighted though I don't and am not sure whether it (they?) were opened by the Pennsy or by PC or Conrail. Respectfully, Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 10:42:11 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] A little more Radebaugh info. was Re: Tunnels --- Ron Dugas wrote: > Hi NDB, All, > > The once extant tunnels at Radebaugh,... > I believe that one (both?) of these bores were daylighted > though I > don't and am not sure whether it (they?) were opened by the Pennsy > or by > PC or Conrail. I was resident in Latrobe when the main tunnel was daylighted. That would put it in the late 1950's or very early 1960's. The old tunnel remains as a tunnel, although I heard somewhere (Triumph I?) that it suffered a cave-in. Anyway, the work was done in PRR days, as I was gone from the area by the time PC came to be. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 13:53:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels On Thu, 3 Oct 2002 SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > Add the Saltsburg tunnel (new and old alignments) on the Connemaugh Division. > > Radebaugh on the Pittsburgh Division near Greensburg (daylighted when > the track was realigned). Well, there were 2 tunnels here; The tunnel on the new alignment was daylighted and the old one is still there. Also the Carney tunnel (bypassed by realignment but still there east of Donohoe) Carpenter's tunnel (bypassed by realignment and daylighted, or perhaps in the other order, and currently PA 993 just east of Trafford) 10 tunnels on the former Panhandle leading west out of Pittsburgh, some daylighted. At least 2, maybe more, I'm forgetting now, added on the Allegheny Valley to bypass loops in the river (Kennerdell is one; Another is near Brady's Bend) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: [PRR] Strasburg red caboose lodge Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 14:38:17 -0400 They're baaaack! "LANCASTER, Pa., 6:08 p.m. EDT October 2, 2002 - The Department of Environmental Protection shut down the Red Caboose Motel in Paradise Township, Lancaster County for the second time this year." (WGAL news) Again, nitrate levels were way too high and the owners failed to operate their nitrate removal system. AND, they didn't report the operation of their system to DEP. If they had made, or attempted to make, a court ordered report they would have realized that it wasn't turned on. This is either cupidity or stupidity or both; repeatedly and unnecessarily endangering people's health for profit. Lew Matt Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Septic and Energy Systems. Advocating sustainable composting toilets and gray water systems. Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 15:42:36 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] More on PRR tunnels Greetings to Jerry, Marty and the List: PRR referred to tunnels as either Natural or Artificial, and apparently the distinction wasn't always related to the difference in construction technique (cut-and-cover versus boring through rock). For example, PRR considered all six of its PT&T tunnels at Weehawken/Penn Station/Sunnyside Yard to be artificial (yet those weren't cut-and-cover), as well as all eleven of those related to the Suburban Station/30th Street/Zoo complex (most if not all of which *were* cut-and-cover). Besides the tunnels that have been noted in posts already, the following existed on Lines East. (On Lines West, most have already been mentioned here by others except for one or two on PRR's approach to Cincinnati and the three--one of them still active--that were on PRR's approach to Wheeling, W.Va.) Phila Div. Gallagherville Enola (3-these would be the artificial ones that Jerry mentioned) Schuylkill Div. Phoenixville Middle Div. East Altoona (artificial) Cresson Div. Carrolltown Pittsburgh Div. New Portage Lindencross Conemaugh Div. Bow Salina Leechburg Allegheny Div. Wood Hill Long Point Climax Brookville Summit Caledonia Williamsport Div. Paddy Mountain Beaver Dam (These two were on the ex-Lewisburg & Tyrone branch and one or both is/are still open as a rail-trail.) Sunbury St. Clair Baltimore Fulton St. Winans Marysville Also, considering those subsidiary roads that were closely held, there were/are at least two on the Monongahela Railway (one built in the late 1960s) and one on the Western Allegheny RR. Hope this helps, Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 16:12:16 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] More on PRR tunnels So what is the difference between a "natural" and an "artificial" tunnel? In Virginia, a natural tunnel is just that: one that was made by Mother Nature and later -- much later by about 1 million years -- used by the railroads. see: http://www.dcr.state.va.us/parks/naturalt.htm Jim McDaniel, living in tunnel-less Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 17:02:41 -0400 From: Christopher Hoess Subject: Re: [PRR] More on PRR tunnels Two more tunnels as yet unmentioned: The former mine tunnel on the Lykens Valley RR, used to bring that line north from Williamstown through the mountain into Bear Valley. If we can count predecessor roads, the eastern division of the Danville & Pottsville (only the western division survived to become part of the PRR system as the Shamokin Valley & Pottsville) built what I believe was the second rail tunnel in the U.S. just north of its connection with the Mt. Carbon RR at Wadesville. The tunnel was erased by strip mining after WWII. -- Chris Hoess ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 17:06:46 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels --part1_19c.9dbb4e4.2ace0b66_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/03/2002 10:09:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > On the main line of the Allegheny Division, tunnels at Brady's Bend > and two other places (names escape me at the moment) which avoided > loops in the Allegheny River. The RR originally followed around the > loops, the tunnels were a later improvement. > > > One of them is the Kennerdale Tunnel. I don't remember the name of the other. Rich Orr --part1_19c.9dbb4e4.2ace0b66_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/03/2002 10:09:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes:


On the main line of the Allegheny Division, tunnels at Brady's Bend
and two other places (names escape me at the moment) which avoided
loops in the Allegheny River. The RR originally followed around the
loops, the tunnels were a later improvement.




One of them is the Kennerdale Tunnel.  I don't remember the name of the other.

Rich Orr --part1_19c.9dbb4e4.2ace0b66_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] tunnels Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 21:13:27 +0000 So now that we have established there were in fact many should I assume that the vast bulk of them were stone lined? The lines east tunnels in Philadelphia and under the New York rivers were concrete lined I am pretty sure. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 17:24:01 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels Greetings to Rich, Jerry and the List: They were East Brady (2462 feet), Wood Hill (2733 feet) and Kennerdell (3513 feet). FWIW, PRR considered all 3 to be "artificial." Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 17:17:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels On Thu, 3 Oct 2002 SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > One of them is the Kennerdale Tunnel. I don't remember the name of the > other. Actually, I think 3: Kennerdell, Rockland and the one by East Brady. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 17:29:19 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels ndbprr@att.net wrote: > So now that we have established there were in fact many >should I assume that the vast bulk of them were stone lined? depends on the locality. In bad, or average ground, might be brick, or stone. In Hard Rock, might be no liner. > The lines east tunnels in Philadelphia Dunno. > and under the New York rivers were concrete lined Segmented iron rings, caulked, then concrete lined, IIR. best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 16:38:43 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels From: jeffrey d thomas The southernmost tunnel on the Marietta branch was at Ava, Ohio. I was cut through shale and sandstone and was not lined. Several cave-ins ocurred that I can remember, with the RR being shut down a few days each time. Jeff Thomas Denton, Tx. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 16:48:54 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" This may have been mentioned by a name I don't recognize. And I'm not even sure it is PRR. As you approach Oil City from Titusville, following Oil Creek, there is a sheer rock wall on your right. Just before the road makes a sharp right turn there is a tunnel portal into the rock wall. I have looked and cannot find the other end. I suspect the road was a former road bed. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: Jerry Britton >To: , PRR-Talk LIST >Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels >Date: Thu, 03 Oct, 2002, 8:07 > > On 10/3/02 8:50 AM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > >> I was thinking about tunnels and can only come up with five locations on the >> PRR: >> 1. the river tunnels into NYC >> 2. Baltimore >> 3. Spruce Creek >> 4. Tunnel Hill >> 5. Port Road > > At the west end of the Rockville Bridge there are several underpasses that I > think really should be termed "tunnels". > > I am not referring to the flyover of the passenger mains over the one set of > Enola leads (which has a bridge structure), but rather the Enola leads > closer to the river that go under the freight mains. Their construction does > not include a bridge, but rather tunnel portals and tunnel linings, with > earth above and around them. I've walked through two of them. They are > tunnels. > > A technicality! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: [PRR] railroad stuff for sale Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 18:17:11 -0400 Friends: I am slimming out my excess railroad stuff. I am having an e-bay sale on books and trains right now. E-mail me if you want the descriptions and e-bay URLs. ( One is a duplicate copy of the PRR Centennial book. That hasn't appeared on B&N.com or Amazon.com for some time.) Lew Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Septic and Energy Systems. Advocating sustainable composting toilets and gray water systems. Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 18:47:30 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels --part1_10.26187755.2ace2302_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/03/2002 6:17:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, harperd@tamug.tamu.edu writes: > As you approach Oil City from Titusville, following Oil Creek, there is a > sheer rock wall on your right. Just before the road makes a sharp right > turn there is a tunnel portal into the rock wall. I have looked and cannot > find the other end. I suspect the road was a former road bed. > > > This is not PRR trackage. It was either NYC or Erie. I don't recall at the moment and my materials are packed away. Rich Orr --part1_10.26187755.2ace2302_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/03/2002 6:17:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, harperd@tamug.tamu.edu writes:


As you approach Oil City from Titusville, following Oil Creek, there is a
sheer rock wall on your right.  Just before the road makes a sharp right
turn there is a tunnel portal into the rock wall.  I have looked and cannot
find the other end.  I suspect the road was a former road bed.




This is not PRR trackage.  It was either NYC or Erie.  I don't recall at the moment and my materials are packed away.

Rich Orr --part1_10.26187755.2ace2302_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 18:47:37 -0400 From: JerrySmed@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels How about the short ex-Camden & Amboy tunnel in Bordentown NJ? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Duane C. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 19:46:56 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00BD_01C26B15.A119C0E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The oldest railroad tunnel in the United States is the Staple Bend = tunnel near Mineral Point in Cambria County, Pennsylvania. It was built = for the Old Portage Railroad. It was recently restored by the National = Park Service and now can be hiked through. There is another PRR tunnel that I have not seen anyone mention. In = Cambria County, Pennsylvania, the PRR had a tunnel on the Susquehanna = branch between Spangler and Bradley Junction. The track through it has = been removed. If you travel on route 219 south of Carrolltown you pass = over this tunnel. Duane Miller ----- Original Message -----=20 From: STEVEGG1@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 1:03 PM Subject: [PRR] tunnels The Howard Tunnel on the Northern Central south of York. In fact, = would this qualify as the oldest RR tunnel in the US?=20 Steve Panopoulos=20 ------=_NextPart_000_00BD_01C26B15.A119C0E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The oldest railroad tunnel in the = United States is=20 the Staple Bend tunnel near Mineral Point in Cambria County, = Pennsylvania. =20 It was built for the Old Portage Railroad.  It was recently = restored by the=20 National Park Service and now can be hiked through.
 
There is another PRR tunnel that I have = not seen=20 anyone mention.  In Cambria County, Pennsylvania, the PRR had a = tunnel on=20 the Susquehanna branch between Spangler and Bradley Junction.  The = track=20 through it has been removed.  If you travel on route 219 south of=20 Carrolltown you pass over this tunnel.
 
Duane Miller
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 STEVEGG1@aol.com=20
Sent: Thursday, October 03, = 2002 1:03=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] tunnels

The Howard Tunnel on the Northern Central south = of York. In=20 fact, would this qualify as the oldest RR tunnel in the US?
Steve=20 Panopoulos ------=_NextPart_000_00BD_01C26B15.A119C0E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 19:51:20 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] F&C H30A In a message dated 9/29/02 4:46:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, billd@gci-net.com writes: << One of the reasons I > picked 255763 was the picture showed the car with > roller bearing trucks; I used Kadee's 70 ton roller > bearing trucks (and 58 couplers). >> Wern't the roller bearing trucks a major factor in what made an H30 an H30a? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 19:55:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg red caboose lodge In a message dated 10/3/02 2:43:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lmatt@alltel.net writes: << They're baaaack! "LANCASTER, Pa., 6:08 p.m. EDT October 2, 2002 - The Department of Environmental Protection shut down the Red Caboose Motel in Paradise Township, Lancaster County for the second time this year." (WGAL news) This is either cupidity or stupidity or both; repeatedly and unnecessarily endangering people's health for profit. >> Either that or an ultra liberal government agency harrassing honest business people - just for the heck of it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 20:00:11 EDT Subject: [PRR] Oil City In a message dated 10/3/02 5:54:16 PM, SUVCWORR@aol.com writes: << In a message dated 10/03/2002 6:17:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, harperd@tamug.tamu.edu writes: > As you approach Oil City from Titusville, following Oil Creek, there is a > sheer rock wall on your right. Just before the road makes a sharp right > turn there is a tunnel portal into the rock wall. I have looked and cannot > find the other end. I suspect the road was a former road bed. >> Oil City was part of the Pennsy's Northern Division when I was based in Buffalo. I remember a trip to Oil City, Titusville and Tionesta and walking by a used car dealer who had two Cord automobiles, one white and the other red, parked on his lot and for sale at a price that, as I recall, was outrageous. I often think of those cars. There was a place for sandwiches called Isalys. Does it still exist? But, there was a yard in Oil City that I recall as being very large and on a piece of flat ground in a bowl-like valley. It was very large and I've wonder ed what happened to that property as the Pennsy disappeared. I remember the ATM spending a couple of hours teaching me to get on and off moving locomotives. Note, that even on the pre-PC days, we'd tear up track whenever we abandoned train operations because we could sell the steel as scrap and the property taxes (local, county and state) were lower without track than with. Is the Oil City yard still there? What happened to the city after bankruptcy? Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 20:38:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels On Thu, 3 Oct 2002, Duane C. Miller wrote: > The oldest railroad tunnel in the United States is the Staple Bend tunnel near Mineral Point in Cambria County, Pennsylvania. It was built for the Old Portage Railroad. It was recently restored by the National Park Service and now can be hiked through. > > There is another PRR tunnel that I have not seen anyone mention. In > Cambria County, Pennsylvania, the PRR had a tunnel on the Susquehanna > branch between Spangler and Bradley Junction. The track through it has > been removed. If you travel on route 219 south of Carrolltown you pass > over this tunnel. I think Dan mentioned it. You can sort of get a look at one end of it from a road which intersects 219. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 20:40:24 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 Decal Question --part1_f2.22d4ce54.2ace3d78_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How about a custom decal sheet containing builders plates for all of the loco manufacturers? Many be a fund raising project for one of the tech. & hist. society chapters? After all, the Pennys had a good selection of all of the loco brands and modelers outside of the SPF circle would be interested. Evan Leisey --part1_f2.22d4ce54.2ace3d78_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How about a custom decal sheet containing builders plates for all of the loco manufacturers?   Many be a fund raising project for one of the tech. & hist. society chapters?  After all,  the Pennys had a good selection of all of the loco brands and modelers outside of the SPF circle would be interested.

Evan Leisey --part1_f2.22d4ce54.2ace3d78_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 20:41:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg red caboose lodge On Thu, 3 Oct 2002 VVA249@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/3/02 2:43:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lmatt@alltel.net > writes: > > << They're baaaack! > > "LANCASTER, Pa., 6:08 p.m. EDT October 2, 2002 - The Department of > Environmental Protection shut down the Red Caboose Motel in Paradise > Township, Lancaster County for the second time this year." (WGAL news) > > This is either cupidity or stupidity or both; repeatedly and unnecessarily > endangering people's health for profit. >> > > Either that or an ultra liberal government agency harrassing honest business > people - just for the heck of it. Political talk is presumably way off topic for this list. I will however point out that the leadership of DEP was appointed by the current Republican administration in PA, so if you're looking for a conspiracy, looking at the liberals will probably result in them looking back at you. -D -centrist ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 18:04:50 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels From: "Douglas Nelson" > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3116513090_56712_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Although never used by the PRR, Staple Bend Tunnel was PRR property after they acquired the assets of the Main Line Canal and Allegheny Portage Railway. Doug Nelson --MS_Mac_OE_3116513090_56712_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] tunnels
Although never used by the PRR, Staple Bend Tunnel was PRR prop= erty after they acquired the assets of the Main Line Canal and Allegheny Por= tage Railway.

Doug Nelson
--MS_Mac_OE_3116513090_56712_MIME_Part-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 21:23:35 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg red caboose lodge --part1_71.26ae5e28.2ace4797_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/3/02 5:13:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, VVA249@aol.com writes: > Either that or an ultra liberal government agency harrassing honest business > > people - just for the heck of it. > > I don't believe thats the case. The Red Caboose has never been the same since the new owners took over back in the early to mid nineties. Jon S. --part1_71.26ae5e28.2ace4797_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/3/02 5:13:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, VVA249@aol.com writes:


Either that or an ultra liberal government agency harrassing honest business
people - just for the heck of it.



I don't believe thats the case. The Red Caboose has never been the same since the new owners took over back in the early to mid nineties. 

Jon S. --part1_71.26ae5e28.2ace4797_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 21:34:47 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg red caboose lodge What is the significance of the Red Caboose Lodge? Can some one provide some context? Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 18:53:18 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels --- SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/03/2002 10:09:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > > > On the main line of the Allegheny Division, tunnels at Brady's > Bend > > and two other places (names escape me at the moment) which > avoided > > loops in the Allegheny River. The RR originally followed around > the > > loops, the tunnels were a later improvement. > > > > One of them is the Kennerdale Tunnel. I don't remember the name of > the > other. And, while thinking of the Allegheny Division's Low Grade Branch, I forgot the tunnel at Brookville. That makes 3 on the LG Branch and if someone says there's another one somewhere between New Bethlehem and Lawsonham, I'll not disagree. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Strasburg red caboose lodge Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 22:14:58 -0400 http://www.redcaboosemotel.com/ See for yourself. It is a shame that such a unique motel is rolling down the wrong track. I find it hard to believe that they do not make money. They are the nearest motel to the Strasburg RR and the Railroad Museum of PA. They are always busy when I am out there. Compared to the original owners, the present owners obviously have a different vision for the motels future, or someone in the government has it out for them. They should take some journal box lubricant and grease some palms with it! -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of LAMAassoc@aol.com Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:35 PM To: JONS6755@aol.com; VVA249@aol.com; lmatt@alltel.net; Prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg red caboose lodge What is the significance of the Red Caboose Lodge? Can some one provide some context? Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John W Rosenbauer" Subject: Re: [PRR] A little more Radebaugh info. was Re: Tunnels Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 22:28:34 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert netzlof" To: ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 1:42 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] A little more Radebaugh info. was Re: Tunnels > --- Ron Dugas wrote: > > Hi NDB, All, > > > > The once extant tunnels at Radebaugh,... > > I believe that one (both?) of these bores were daylighted > > though I > > don't and am not sure whether it (they?) were opened by the Pennsy > > or by > > PC or Conrail. > > I was resident in Latrobe when the main tunnel was daylighted. That > would put it in the late 1950's or very early 1960's. 64~~65. K-Mart store on Rt 30 was open cause someone stuffed a bit too much blasting gell in a hole and put several 40~~50 pound rocks through it's roof. I remember the pics on the front page of the Tribune Review. >The old tunnel > remains as a tunnel, although I heard somewhere (Triumph I?) that it > suffered a cave-in. As result of Hurricane Agness in 72. John W Rosenbauer --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Citizens Internet Services with Declude Virus v 1.61] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 22:27:59 -0400 From: "David R. Campbell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Oil City I grew up in Oil City, leaving in 1992 after 36 years. The tunnel you speak of was on the NYC, possibly former LS&MS . Both the Erie and the NYC followed the Allegheny from Franklin North to Oil City. The Erie continued across Oil Creek where it joined the Allegheny while the NYC curved through the hillside (known as Hogback) and terminated North of the North tunnel portal near the area known as White bridge. They had a turntable there. There was three in Oil City by the way. The south side of this tunnel was covered over. If you come around that hillside and turn right up the road to Dempseytown you will pass a small replica of an Oil Derrick in the wye created by the roads. The portal was in that area, to the right of the highway. The road crossed the tracks on a small wooden bridge. The tracks then continued at an angle until they crossed Route 8 and ran between the highway and the river to Franklin. I remember a feed store along the tracks near there. David Campbell Norton, VA LAMAassoc@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/3/02 5:54:16 PM, SUVCWORR@aol.com writes: > > << In a message dated 10/03/2002 6:17:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > harperd@tamug.tamu.edu writes: > > > As you approach Oil City from Titusville, following Oil Creek, there is a > > sheer rock wall on your right. Just before the road makes a sharp right > > turn there is a tunnel portal into the rock wall. I have looked and cannot > > find the other end. I suspect the road was a former road bed. >> > > Oil City was part of the Pennsy's Northern Division when I was based in > Buffalo. I remember a trip to Oil City, Titusville and Tionesta and walking > by a used car dealer who had two Cord automobiles, one white and the other > red, parked on his lot and for sale at a price that, as I recall, was > outrageous. I often think of those cars. > > There was a place for sandwiches called Isalys. Does it still exist? > > But, there was a yard in Oil City that I recall as being very large and on a > piece of flat ground in a bowl-like valley. It was very large and I've wonder > ed what happened to that property as the Pennsy disappeared. I remember the > ATM spending a couple of hours teaching me to get on and off moving > locomotives. Note, that even on the pre-PC days, we'd tear up track whenever > we abandoned train operations because we could sell the steel as scrap and > the property taxes (local, county and state) were lower without track than > with. > > Is the Oil City yard still there? What happened to the city after bankruptcy? > > Regards, Marty > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 22:48:13 -0400 From: "David R. Campbell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Oil City It's NS now, the yard is still there and power was parked there the last time I was up there which was a few weeks ago. The Pennzoil refinery has shut down I believe so there is not much going on. The yard was almost vacant. There is also north yard near Rouseville in the area of the refinery which was also heavily used. The tracks extend North to the other side of Rouseville and connect with the Oil Creek and Titusville. Isalys is gone, we used get in trouble for running through the place as there was an entrance on both Seneca (front) and Elm (back) streets. The city did ok after bankruptcy, lot's of businesses moved out, Pennzoil, Quaker State, etc. all are gone. I work for one of the few large employers in the area, Joy Mining Machinery in Franklin 8 miles south. The pennsy line along the south side of the river to Franklin is a bike trail. David Campbell Norton, VA LAMAassoc@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/3/02 5:54:16 PM, SUVCWORR@aol.com writes: > > << In a message dated 10/03/2002 6:17:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > harperd@tamug.tamu.edu writes: > > > As you approach Oil City from Titusville, following Oil Creek, there is a > > sheer rock wall on your right. Just before the road makes a sharp right > > turn there is a tunnel portal into the rock wall. I have looked and cannot > > find the other end. I suspect the road was a former road bed. >> > > Oil City was part of the Pennsy's Northern Division when I was based in > Buffalo. I remember a trip to Oil City, Titusville and Tionesta and walking > by a used car dealer who had two Cord automobiles, one white and the other > red, parked on his lot and for sale at a price that, as I recall, was > outrageous. I often think of those cars. > > There was a place for sandwiches called Isalys. Does it still exist? > > But, there was a yard in Oil City that I recall as being very large and on a > piece of flat ground in a bowl-like valley. It was very large and I've wonder > ed what happened to that property as the Pennsy disappeared. I remember the > ATM spending a couple of hours teaching me to get on and off moving > locomotives. Note, that even on the pre-PC days, we'd tear up track whenever > we abandoned train operations because we could sell the steel as scrap and > the property taxes (local, county and state) were lower without track than > with. > > Is the Oil City yard still there? What happened to the city after bankruptcy? > > Regards, Marty > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] F7A Antenna Support Stand Query Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 21:56:31 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0621_01C26B27.BB52D660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Zak--There should be 14 supports. Sometimes the castings don't get = made right and one of the supports attached to the sprue doesn't turn = out right. I have found that when this happens the folks at CalScale = will include a single unattached support as a replacement in the = package. Of course, anything can happen as likely did in your case. I = like to keep an extra set around because I have been known to lose a = support. CalScale is part of Bowser; their contact info is at=20 http://www.bowser-trains.com/ Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ------=_NextPart_000_0621_01C26B27.BB52D660 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Zak--There should be 14 = supports. =20 Sometimes the castings don't get made right and one of the supports = attached to=20 the sprue doesn't turn out right.  I have found that when this = happens the=20 folks at CalScale will include a single unattached support as a = replacement in=20 the package.  Of course, anything can happen as likely did in your=20 case.  I like to keep an extra set around because I have been known = to lose=20 a support.  CalScale is part of Bowser; their contact info is at=20
http://www.bowser-trains.com/<= /FONT>
 
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL
------=_NextPart_000_0621_01C26B27.BB52D660-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] F&C H30A Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 22:08:52 -0500 wrote-- > > Wern't the roller bearing trucks a major factor in what made an H30 an H30a? > The Summer 2002 Keystone shows photos of both the H30 and H30a; both have plain bearing trucks, although the trucks are of different styles. According to the December 1982 Keystone, the H30a has 36" wheels insted of 33" as on the H30, as well as "several minor changes". Both issues show an H33 as built new in 1953 with roller bearing trucks. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 07:47:11 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg red caboose lodge LAMAassoc@aol.com wrote: > What is the significance of the Red Caboose Lodge? Constructed (in part?) from redecorated Caboose (cabin car) Shells. Handy (as noted) to Museum and Strasburg RR. best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 08:30:06 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] F&C H30A I thought the major difference was the H30a had a fabricated bolster and the H30 had a cast bolster. (plus other details) BTW talking of H30s, the classic builder's photos in CBC show a running board integral with the roof, not affixed afterward on supports. I have never seen a another photo of an H30 so built. Was this a one-off prototype, never duplicated, or have I not seen enough photos? ;-) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Steve Hoxie wrote: > wrote-- > > > > Wern't the roller bearing trucks a major factor in what made an H30 an > H30a? > > > The Summer 2002 Keystone shows photos of both the H30 and H30a; both have > plain bearing trucks, although the trucks are of different styles. > According to the December 1982 Keystone, the H30a has 36" wheels insted of > 33" as on the H30, as well as "several minor changes". Both issues show an > H33 as built new in 1953 with roller bearing trucks. > > Steve Hoxie > Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 07:55:38 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels >ndbprr@att.net wrote: > >> So now that we have established there were in fact many > >>should I assume that the vast bulk of them were stone lined? > > depends on the locality. > In bad, or average ground, might be brick, or stone. > In Hard Rock, might be no liner. To which I add that the three tunnels on the C&PD (Port Road) and the tunnel on the Columbia branch were all unlined. The former 3 had catenary through them, of course. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Tunnels Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 13:01:24 +0000 Do we consider the Pennsylvania Turnpike tunnels as PRR? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 06:40:32 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Tunnels --- ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Do we consider the Pennsylvania Turnpike tunnels as PRR? I would think not. They were constructed (so far as they were constructed) by the South Pennsylvania RR, which at the time was backed by NYC interests and intended as a rival to the PRR. In the settlement between NYC and PRR, PRR was to acquire the South Penn and the Beech Creek, but the provision in the PA constitution barring mergers between parallel railroads caused a court to enjoin PRR from acquiring either. On the other hand, when the turnpike was begun, the commission did pay PRR and B and O a megabuck each for whatever rights each may have owned in the South Penn property; so someone, somewhere may have believed that PRR had some ownership interest. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 10:28:46 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Holiday Open Houses - Request for Schedules From: Jerry Britton The holiday season will soon be upon us. Can you believe it? And with the holiday season comes model railroad open houses. If your home or club layout has a Pennsy flavor and will be open between now and January, please send me the dates, name of the layout and scale, one or two sentence description, address, and contact name and e-mail address. I will post this information on the Timetable page of Keystone Crossings... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/timetable.ws4d ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 10:46:37 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Tunnels From: Jerry Britton On 10/4/02 9:01 AM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > Do we consider the Pennsylvania Turnpike tunnels as PRR? > More likely NYC. It was an NYC project to build the "South Penn". ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 09:59:43 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Oil City From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" I was there July two years ago and there was a lone NS engine and a CR caboose in the yard. No cars at all. Isalys is gone, but thank the Powers that be, you can still get Klondike ice cream squares. ---------- >From: "David R. Campbell" wrote: > It's NS now, the yard is still there and power was parked there the last time I > was up there which was a few weeks ago. The Pennzoil refinery has shut down I > believe so there is not much going on. The yard was almost vacant. There is also > north yard near Rouseville in the area of the refinery which was also heavily > used. The tracks extend North to the other side of Rouseville and connect with > the Oil Creek and Titusville. > > Isalys is gone,..... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 10:58:18 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] C&PD tunnels Hi Gang, Just for kicks, if any of you care, here are the C&PD tunnels from outer space (that is, terraserver satelite images)! William's tunnel http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=10&T=1&X=1974&Y=21996&Z=18&W=2 Frazer's tunnel http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=10&T=1&X=1975&Y=21986&Z=18&W=2 Wildcat tunnel http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=10&T=1&X=1976&Y=21982&Z=18&W=2 Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] F&C H30A Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 11:57:10 -0500 Hi Andy--You wrote-- > > I thought the major difference was the H30a had a fabricated bolster and the > H30 had a cast bolster. (plus other details) > >From Richard Burg's article in the Keystone of December 1982, "It has been suggested in the modeling press that another difference between H30 and H30a was the use of cast bolsters on the former and welded on the later, but this is not the case. The first two orders for H30 in 1935 has one piece cast bolsters, subsequent orders were built with various styles of welded bolsters. At first these welded versions closely followed the basic pattern established by the cast type, but on later orders they looked quite different from the cast type of bolster. Oddly, at least some of the H30a order received cast bolsters which possibly turned up in storage somewhere." > > BTW talking of H30s, the classic builder's photos in CBC show a running board > integral with the roof, not affixed afterward on supports. I have never seen a > another photo of an H30 so built. Was this a one-off prototype, never > duplicated, or have I not seen enough photos? ;-) > In the previous paragraph in the article, Burg wrote,"Other differences included the use of a more typical grid type roofwalk and the redesigning of the hopper door and the redesigning of the hopper door rather than ending at braces descending from the slope sheets as on H30." It would seem the roofwalk on the H30 was different. Photos of the top of these cars must be scarce, but somewhere I have seen a photo looking down on an H30 from one of the bridges over the Altoona shop complex. As I recall there was another car in the photo which may have been the subject of the photo. I think the photo was in the Keystone, but I haven't been able to page thru all my issues. Maybe this will stir somone else's memory. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 13:26:10 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] F&C H30A --part1_e4.2e85bac7.2acf2932_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/4/02 1:06:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, steveh@dotstar.net writes: > > BTW talking of H30s, the classic builder's photos in CBC show a running > board > > integral with the roof, not affixed afterward on supports. I have never > seen a > > another photo of an H30 so built. Was this a one-off prototype, never > > duplicated, or have I not seen enough photos? ;-) > > > In the previous paragraph in the article, Burg wrote,"Other differences > included the use of a more typical grid type roofwalk and the redesigning > of > the hopper door and the redesigning of the hopper door rather than ending > at > braces descending from the slope sheets as on H30." It would seem the > roofwalk on the H30 was different. Photos of the top of these cars must be > scarce, but somewhere I have seen a photo looking down on an H30 from one > of > the bridges over the Altoona shop complex. As I recall there was another > car in the photo which may have been the subject of the photo. I think the > photo was in the Keystone, but I haven't been able to page thru all my > issues. Maybe this will stir somone else's memory. > > Steve Hoxie > Pensacola FL Hi Steve and others, Photos of roofs of both the H30 and H30a covered hoppers appear on page 7 of the Autumn 1987 (Vol. 20, No. 3) issue of the Keystone. Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_e4.2e85bac7.2acf2932_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/4/02 1:06:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, steveh@dotstar.net writes:


> BTW talking of H30s,   the classic builder's photos in CBC show a running
board
> integral with the roof, not affixed afterward on supports.  I have never
seen a
> another photo of an H30 so built.  Was this a one-off prototype, never
> duplicated, or have I not seen enough photos? ;-)
>
In the previous paragraph in the article, Burg wrote,"Other differences
included the use of a more typical grid type roofwalk and the redesigning of
the hopper door and the redesigning of the hopper door rather than ending at
braces descending from the slope sheets as on H30."  It would seem the
roofwalk on the H30 was different.  Photos of the top of these cars must be
scarce, but somewhere I have seen a photo looking down on an H30 from one of
the bridges over the Altoona shop complex.  As I recall there was another
car in the photo which may have been the subject of the photo.  I think the
photo was in the Keystone, but I haven't been able to page thru all my
issues.  Maybe this will stir somone else's memory.

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL


Hi Steve and others,

Photos of roofs of both the H30 and H30a covered hoppers appear on page 7 of the Autumn 1987 (Vol. 20, No. 3) issue of the Keystone.

Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_e4.2e85bac7.2acf2932_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 13:44:13 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Woman Shocked, Burned On Top Of Train From: Jerry Britton http://www.msnbc.com/local/wgal/A1344906.asp Woman Shocked, Burned On Top Of Train ELIZABETHTOWN, Pa., 1:24 p.m. EDT October 4, 2002 - A woman suffered second- and third-degree burns on 75 percent of her body after being shocked by an electrical wire at the Elizabethtown Train Station. Amtrak officials said the woman was found on top of a Norfolk Southern boxcar shortly after midnight Friday. She had come in contact with an electrical wire that sent 11,000 volts of electricity through her. She is being treated at Lehigh Valley Burn Center. Her name is not being released at this time, but officials told News 8 she is about 20 years of age and from the area. Amtrak is investigating the incident. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] The Broadway Limited Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 14:10:05 -0400 >From the Conrail Technical Society: Amtrak Train 41 on Norfolk Southern and CSXT Revised Effective October 27th, 2002: 1:45 PM NYP 2:04 PM NWK 2:50 PM TRE 3:50 PM PHL 4:19 PM PAO 5:10 PM LNC 6:10 PM HAR 7:23 PM LEW 8:02 PM HGD 8:47 PM ALT 9:47 PM JST 10:28 PM LAB 10:40 PM GNB 11:59 PM PGH 1:47 AM YTO 2:48 AM AKO 4:34 AM FOS 6:58 AM NPI 7:37 AM HMI 9:20 AM CHI It seems like the Amtrak "equivalent" of the Broadway will last a little longer. BTW How does this schedule compare to 1938, 1948, 1956? I know it takes a different route west of PGH. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 14:37:20 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Trackside/roadside culture: Isaly's (somewhat off-topic) Greetings to Don, Jerry, the List, and all Youns in Western Pa.: The story of the Klondike bars and the Isaly's family-owned deli/dairy/ice cream chain (which operated more than 600 stores in dozens of PRR towns in western Pa., Ohio, Indiana, and West Virginia--required tuscan content) is told in Brian Butko's book "Klondikes, Chipped Ham & Skyscraper Cones, the Story of Isaly's" by Stackpole Books (www.stackpolebooks.com) There is also an Isaly's historical website: www.isalys.com. Only about a dozen stores remain. The firm was a regional cultural icon like Giant Iggle supermarkets, Clark bars, and Iron City and Rolling Rock beer. It had stores all over PRR-land out there--Fort Wayne, Akron, Alliance, Canton, Columbus, Cleveland, Lima, Youngstown (several dozen locations), Pittsburgh (several dozen locations), Ambridge, Beaver Falls, Blairsville, Braddock, Brownsville, Butler, Conway, Carnegie, Greensburg, Homestead, Jeanette, Johnstown, Kittanning, Latrobe, New Castle, Oil City (of course), Rochester, Sewickley, Swissvale, Titusville, Waynesburg, Washington, Wilmerding, Weirton and Wheeling, to name just a few. Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 15:40:21 -0300 From: A Samostie Subject: Re: [PRR] The Broadway Limited Dear Group, 7:37 am in Hammond, 9:20 am in Chicago?? Are you SURE that's not supposed to be 8:20 am? If these times are correct, that is an unacceptably long time to get from Hammond to Union Station, terminal congestion or not. Also, my collection of old time tables was destroyed, so I don't remember what major stops the Broadway made west of Pittsburgh (other than Valparaiso). Can anyone list the major stops that the train made across Ohio and Indiana before the route shift? What were the scheduled arrival times in Altoona and Pittsburgh prior to track deterioration? Thanks, Alan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 14:48:30 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg red caboose lodge Greetings to Marty, Jerry and the List: Also, many of the cabin cars are ex-PRR, including class N5 and the hilarious life-imitates-art Lionel Lines N5C #536417 (its Lionel number). And the restaurant "diner" is located in a P70 coach. Dan Cupper LAMAassoc@aol.com wrote: > > What is the significance of the Red Caboose Lodge? Can some one provide some > context? > > Regards, Marty > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 14:48:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Trackside/roadside culture: Isaly's (somewhat off-topic) --part1_11d.18201230.2acf3c86_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan and all interested, MTH Electric Trains is also offering a series of Isalys boxs cars in O Gauge. I think you'll find them interesting ! Jon S. --part1_11d.18201230.2acf3c86_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan and all interested,

MTH Electric Trains is also offering a series of Isalys boxs cars in O Gauge. I think you'll find them interesting !

Jon S. --part1_11d.18201230.2acf3c86_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 15:08:56 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Trackside/roadside culture: Isaly's (somewhat off-topic) From: Jerry Britton On 10/4/02 2:37 PM, Dan Cupper (cupper@att.net) wrote: > The story of the Klondike bars and the Isaly's family-owned > deli/dairy/ice cream chain (which operated more than 600 stores in > dozens of PRR towns in western Pa., Ohio, Indiana, and West > Virginia--required tuscan content) is told in Brian Butko's book > "Klondikes, Chipped Ham & Skyscraper Cones, the Story of Isaly's" by > Stackpole Books (www.stackpolebooks.com) There is also an Isaly's > historical website: www.isalys.com. Only about a dozen stores remain. > Thanks for the URL's, Dan! The thought of "Isaly's" certainly seems to be triggering the memories of many who visited one or more of their many stores. Seems to me that if you model western PA, OH, or WV in the 1950's-1970's it would be a perfect building to model. Nothing like conjuring up memories in the minds of those who visit your layout. Seeing an ice cream/deli store on a layout is one thing, but when a person sees something on a layout unexpectedly and it jogs your memory...that is a successful model! I checked the URL's. Through the links you can get to a Logos page and another to Photos of all of their stores (with addresses). Though not prototypical, I just may have to put one in Cresson! (My farthest point west.) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 15:19:13 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] The Broadway Limited --part1_e6.2f5c7fd8.2acf43b1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The 1955 schedule for Train 29: lv. Hudson Terminal 5:48 PM Jersey City 5:51 PM Penna. Sta. 6:00 PM * lv Newark 6:14 PM * North Phila. Sta. 7:21 PM * Paoli 7:50 PM * Harrisburg 9:01 PM * Altoona 11:13 PM * Pittsburgh 1:53 AM Crestline 5:20 AM d Fort Wayne 6:24 AM d Englewood 8:30 AM d Union Sta. Chi. 8:45 AM t = Boarding only of passengers for Pittsburgh and west d = discharge of passengers only Rich Orr --part1_e6.2f5c7fd8.2acf43b1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The 1955 schedule for Train 29:

lv.   Hudson Terminal        5:48 PM
Jersey City                        5:51 PM
Penna. Sta.                       6:00 PM *
lv Newark                          6:14 PM *
North Phila. Sta.                7:21 PM *
Paoli                                  7:50 PM *
Harrisburg                          9:01 PM *
Altoona                               11:13 PM *
Pittsburgh                           1:53 AM
Crestline                             5:20 AM  d
Fort Wayne                        6:24 AM  d
Englewood                         8:30 AM  d
Union Sta. Chi.                  8:45 AM

t = Boarding only of passengers for Pittsburgh and west
d = discharge of passengers only

Rich Orr --part1_e6.2f5c7fd8.2acf43b1_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 16:17:33 -0700 From: timpaniman Subject: [PRR] PRR Tunnels List; There is a PRR tunnel at East Altoona Pa. where the east bound passenger tracks pass under a hump yard. Doug Jones ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Laird" Subject: Re: [PRR] The Broadway Limited Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 15:02:35 -0500 A Samosite wrote, in part: > > 7:37 am in Hammond, 9:20 am in Chicago?? Are you SURE that's not > supposed to be 8:20 am? > If these times are correct, that is an unacceptably long time to get > from Hammond to Union Station, terminal congestion or not. > Looks like Amtrak is doing the same trick with the Broadway Ltd. that they do in Texas with the Chicago to San Antonio train. They make the timetable time between the last stop (San Marcos) and the destination (San Antonio) well over an hour longer that what a "reasonable" time would be. That is their cushion so that they have an extra hour before the train is officially late. If it pulls in anytime before the timetable time it is touted as arriving early. They can only pull that trick on the destination because it is an arrival only time. All other published times on the timetable are departure times and if they arrived early they could not leave until the published times. What is the old saying, "figures don't lie, liars figure". Bill Laird Canyon Lake, TX ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 15:48:46 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: Trackside/roadside culture: Isaly's (somewhat off-topic) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" Dan Thanks for the web site. Jerry, you are right. An Isaly's store would evoke a lot of nostalgia amongst those of us who remember the stores. Ours in Coraopolis was part of a block of stores on Mill Street, but the shiny white front as shown on the web page was there. And unfortunately I'm FROM western Pennsylvania, not IN western Pennsylvania. It is 93 degrees down here. In OCTOBER! Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: Dan Cupper >To: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" >Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: Trackside/roadside culture: Isaly's (somewhat off-topic) >Date: Fri, 04 Oct, 2002, 13:37 > > p ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 13:59:08 -0700 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] The Broadway Limited Hi Bill, All, Ah, now I get it. Last year when I took the Sunset from Texas to L.A. on my way home I wondered why the timetable showed 3 hours for the last segment when east bound it gave the same distance 1 hour! Respectfully, Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 19:13:28 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Cincinnati Union Terminal In a message dated 9/25/02 9:38:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Patrick.Rose@ae.ge.com writes: > Marvin, > Interesting you should mention the clocks. The original clock system > is something of a pet project of mine. The system is an IBM (yep, the same > one) momentary impulse system, very similar to school systems many of us > knew as kids. The facinating part is that IBM managed to drive several > different clock displays, from regular dial clocks to the 'light-bulb > digital' in the information booth to the one on the face of the rotunda, > all from a single master clock. There were even mixed cycles; some clocks > were on 30 second intervals, some on 60 second (depending on dial diameter > and other factors). There was even a correction circuit to 'catch-up' any > clocks that fell behind. > To date, we have 5 (soon to be 7) original clocks running with their > original motors being driven by a new master clock from American Time & > Signal Co. This was necessary as the original master clock was stolen > shortly after the CUT closed in 1972. It has never surfaced in any estate > auction that I'm aware of, so it's likely still in whoever's basement in > went to then. It's a shame, as it's a georgeous and dramatic piece of > clock-work. If you have the hardback book recently published on the > Terimnal by the CRRC, there's a photo of it in there, pg 112. > If you're at at the next Summerail, maybe we'll run into each other and > can talk further. > Thanks, > Patrick Rose > CRRC > For those who were asking, the CUT book from Cincinnati Railroad Club is available via their website at http://www.cincinnatirrclub.org/. I understand the first printing is almost sold out at this point. They also have a new mortgage map color reproduction showing various lines of the PRR and how they were mortgaged -- that's too new to be on the website, but is priced at 9.95 like the previous roads they've done in this series. An interesting view of railroad debt. Zee you in Zinzinnati! Rick Tipton [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/MVfIAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 19:13:28 EDT Subject: [PRR] Cincinnati Union Terminal --part1_fe.1ef939bf.2acf7a98_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/25/02 9:38:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Patrick.Rose@ae.ge.com writes: > Marvin, > Interesting you should mention the clocks. The original clock system > is something of a pet project of mine. The system is an IBM (yep, the same > one) momentary impulse system, very similar to school systems many of us > knew as kids. The facinating part is that IBM managed to drive several > different clock displays, from regular dial clocks to the 'light-bulb > digital' in the information booth to the one on the face of the rotunda, > all from a single master clock. There were even mixed cycles; some clocks > were on 30 second intervals, some on 60 second (depending on dial diameter > and other factors). There was even a correction circuit to 'catch-up' any > clocks that fell behind. > To date, we have 5 (soon to be 7) original clocks running with their > original motors being driven by a new master clock from American Time & > Signal Co. This was necessary as the original master clock was stolen > shortly after the CUT closed in 1972. It has never surfaced in any estate > auction that I'm aware of, so it's likely still in whoever's basement in > went to then. It's a shame, as it's a georgeous and dramatic piece of > clock-work. If you have the hardback book recently published on the > Terimnal by the CRRC, there's a photo of it in there, pg 112. > If you're at at the next Summerail, maybe we'll run into each other and > can talk further. > Thanks, > Patrick Rose > CRRC > For those who were asking, the CUT book from Cincinnati Railroad Club is available via their website at http://www.cincinnatirrclub.org/. I understand the first printing is almost sold out at this point. They also have a new mortgage map color reproduction showing various lines of the PRR and how they were mortgaged -- that's too new to be on the website, but is priced at 9.95 like the previous roads they've done in this series. An interesting view of railroad debt. Zee you in Zinzinnati! Rick Tipton --part1_fe.1ef939bf.2acf7a98_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/25/02 9:38:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Patrick.Rose@ae.ge.com writes:


Marvin,
    Interesting you should mention the clocks.  The original clock system is something of a pet project of mine.  The system is an IBM (yep, the same one) momentary impulse system, very similar to school systems many of us knew as kids.  The facinating part is that IBM managed to drive several different clock displays, from regular dial clocks to the 'light-bulb digital' in the information booth to the one on the face of the rotunda, all from a single master clock.  There were even mixed cycles; some clocks were on 30 second intervals, some on 60 second (depending on dial diameter and other factors).  There was even a correction circuit to 'catch-up' any clocks that fell behind.
    To date, we have 5 (soon to be 7) original clocks running with their original motors being driven by a new master clock from American Time & Signal Co.  This was necessary as the original master clock was stolen shortly after the CUT closed in 1972.  It has never surfaced in any estate auction that I'm aware of, so it's likely still in whoever's basement in went to then.  It's a shame, as it's a georgeous and dramatic piece of clock-work.  If you have the hardback book recently published on the Terimnal by the CRRC, there's a photo of it in there, pg 112.
    If you're at at the next Summerail, maybe we'll run into each other and can talk further.
Thanks,
Patrick Rose
CRRC


For those who were asking, the CUT book from Cincinnati Railroad Club is available via their website at http://www.cincinnatirrclub.org/.  I understand the first printing is almost sold out at this point.  They also have a new mortgage map color reproduction showing various lines of the PRR and how they were mortgaged -- that's too new to be on the website, but is priced at 9.95 like the previous roads they've done in this series.  An interesting view of railroad debt.

Zee you in Zinzinnati!
  
Rick Tipton
 --part1_fe.1ef939bf.2acf7a98_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 19:37:07 EDT Subject: [PRR] Levine's PRR E8's --part1_1bb.7236ec4.2acf8023_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anybody know the PRR E8 schedule for this weekend into and out of Harrisburg? I'm looking for Saturday morning and Sunday night. If it was already listed, please list again. Bob Martin --part1_1bb.7236ec4.2acf8023_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anybody know the PRR E8 schedule for this weekend into and out of Harrisburg?  I'm looking for Saturday morning and Sunday night.  If it was already listed, please list again.

Bob Martin --part1_1bb.7236ec4.2acf8023_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWSNRHS@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 19:46:33 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Tunnels --part1_14b.153c1ecc.2acf8259_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/04/2002 4:25:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, timpaniman@comcast.net writes: > List; > There is a PRR tunnel at East Altoona Pa. where the east bound passenger > tracks pass under a hump yard. > Doug Jones > > The East Altoona Tunnel was daylighted a couple of years ago at the end of the Conrail era. Dave Seidel, Altoona --part1_14b.153c1ecc.2acf8259_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/04/2002 4:25:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, timpaniman@comcast.net writes:


List;
There is a PRR tunnel at East Altoona Pa. where the east bound passenger
tracks pass under a hump yard.
Doug Jones


The East Altoona Tunnel was daylighted a couple of years ago at the end of the Conrail era.

Dave Seidel, Altoona
 --part1_14b.153c1ecc.2acf8259_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 20:00:25 -0400 From: dwsnrhs@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Tunnels In a message dated Fri, 4 Oct 2002 8:40:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > --- ndbprr@att.net wrote: > > Do we consider the Pennsylvania Turnpike tunnels as PRR? > > I would think not. > > They were constructed (so far as they were constructed) by the South > Pennsylvania RR, which at the time was backed by NYC interests and > intended as a rival to the PRR. In the settlement between NYC and > PRR, PRR was to acquire the South Penn and the Beech Creek, but the > provision in the PA constitution barring mergers between parallel > railroads caused a court to enjoin PRR from acquiring either. > > On the other hand, when the turnpike was begun, the commission did > pay PRR and B and O a megabuck each for whatever rights each may have > owned in the South Penn property; so someone, somewhere may > have I agree. The Turnpike tunnels are (were) NOT PRR. The turnpike tunnels (South Penn RR) was intended to be a competing rr to the PRR). However, for an interesting look at this history, take a look at www.southpennrailroad.com. All the details are there and the companion reference is, of course, Dan Cuppers history of the Pennsylvania Turnpike. Dave Seidel Altoona, PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 21:05:40 -0400 From: John W Rosenbauer Subject: [PRR] Saturdays Pittsburgh trip from Railfest. Guys, Work precludes me from attending on Sat so I'm wondering if anyone knows when the E-8s will leave for Pittsburgh. I may be able to tape them near Greensburg. Thanks, John W Rosenbauer --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Citizens Internet Services with Declude Virus v 1.61] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 21:23:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Long Bridge, was [PRR] tunnels From: "M. E Allen" Nothing in the District of Columbia is owned in fee simple (not that railroad property is terribly often). The Long Bridge was actually owned by the War Department and during the Penn Central Real Estate Fire Sale of the seventies ("Anything you want as long as its for cash on a quit claim deed) it was transferred to the Department of Transportation. MEA . On Thu, 3 Oct 2002 10:57:53 -0400 "Gregg Mahlkov" writes: > Andy, > > That's the Virginia Avenue Tunnel I was referring to. It was a PRR > tunnel > leading to the Long Bridge over the Potomac, which was owned by > PRR. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andrew S. Miller" > To: > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:26 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels > > > > There is the tunnel under the US Capitol Plaza from Union Station > to > L'Enfant > > Plaza area. It is used by all passenger trains from the PRR going > south > of > > DC. Was that PRR or Washington Union Terminal Co? > > > > Regards, > > > > Andy Miller > > asmiller@mitre.org > > > > ================================================== > > Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > > > > > In a message dated 10/3/02 7:58:27 AM Central Daylight Time, > ndbprr@att.net > > > writes: > > > > > > << are there any others? >> > > > > > > I don't know if it is long enough to qualify as a tunnel, but > isn't the > > > produce or team track yard in Washington reached by an > underground (or > > > underbuilding) arrangement of some sort? > > > > > > Bob Zoeller > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For assistance with this list, please visit > http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit > http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FredAbend@aol.com Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 08:14:11 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels List: Continuing with the tunnel thread here are a few more details on the tunnel just north of Columbia: Until recently I had never heard a name for this tunnel. However, in an 1866 act incorporating Columbia Borough the Pennsylvania General Assembly defined the Borough's borders. In the definition section the Act refers to "Point Rock Tunnel." If you're familiar with the area now that seems like a strange name. However in the 1800s this was a very logical name. Originally the canal followed the base of the hills between Marietta and Columbia. Point Rock stuck out in the Susquehanna and the canal simply swung out around it. When workers built the railroad between the canal and the hills there was enough room to do so except at Point Rock. There they chose to drill a tunnel rather than cut through the hill. When the PRR built the Low Grade it took a straight line between the base of Chiques Hill (near Marietta) and Point Rock. This formed Kerbaugh Lake, named after one of the contractors, to the east of the low grade. What became the Columbia Branch continued to go through Point Rock Tunnel and followed the railroad's original alignment. After WW2 the PRR filled in Kerbaugh Lake and ultimately tied in the Columbia Branch to the Low Grade at the Columbia Yard. The railroad then pulled the tracks out from the base of the hills and the tunnel. All of this construction and filling obliterated the part of the river that gave Point Rock its name. Point Rock Tunnel is to become part of a proposed Northwest Trail running from Columbia to Falmouth. Following Bruce Smith's URL posting here is Point Rock Tunnel on Terraserver: http://terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com/image.aspx?t=1&s=10&x=1852&y=22166&z=18 &w=1 If you scroll NW you'll see filled-in Kerbaugh Lake and the original railroad's alignment, which is now a service road. Scroll SE and you'll see Columbia Yard. Fred ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rick Siller" Subject: [PRR] Re: F&C H30A and Branchline X43B Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 15:53:44 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C26C87.628A22C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Per Andy Hart,=20 > >Photos of roofs of both the H30 and H30a covered hoppers appear on page = 7 of the Autumn 1987 (Vol. 20, No. 3) issue of the Keystone. Andy,=20 Thanks for the info on the roof shot for the H30 and H30A. Now I can = finish the top of my F&C hopper from a photo reference. =20 Also, on page 6 there is a good photo of an X43B in the CK scheme. I = always wondered about the dash in the X43-B on the Branchline models. I = have seen very few car sub-classes that are preceeded by a dash. Was = this unique to particular classes or car builders? Rick ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C26C87.628A22C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>Per Andy Hart,=20
>
>Photos of roofs of = both the H30=20 and H30a covered hoppers appear on page 7 of the Autumn 1987 (Vol. 20, = No. 3)=20 issue of the Keystone.
Andy, =
Thanks for = the info on the=20 roof shot for the H30 and H30A.  Now I can finish the top of my = F&C=20 hopper from a photo reference. 
 
Also, on page 6 there is a good photo = of an X43B in=20 the CK scheme.  I always wondered about the dash in the X43-B on = the=20 Branchline models.  I have seen very few car sub-classes that = are=20 preceeded by a dash.  Was this unique to particular classes or car=20 builders?
 
Rick
 

 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C26C87.628A22C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "mark taylor" Subject: [PRR] F-7 NOSE GRAB IRONS Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 15:51:37 -0400 Hello list , I am in the process of detailing my Athearn F-7's. My question pertains to the grab irons above the number boards. They seem to have a very distinctive shape, are there any grab irons commercially available? If not, how can I make something reasonably close. Any response would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Cooper" Subject: [PRR] Gray's Ferry tunnel Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 15:31:49 -0700 The discussion of tunnels and specifically the mention of the gray's ferry branch reminded me of some study I did a while ago. In the days of the West Philadelphia station, before 30th st, the original alignment of the arsenal-broad tracks was very close to it's current alignment. The radius of the curve was slightly tighter so that the tracks went under roughtly where track 1 is now and headed for roughly the center of present-day 30th st station building. The tracks were actually subgrade with retaining walls on either side. The west philadelphia station platforms were right on the curve and there was also a short tunnel right where the tracks went under the high line. As best as I can tell from photos, it appears this old subgrade alignment was covered with steel beams supported by the retaining walls to support the present day tracks 1 & 2. I can't imagine the short tunnel was daylighted, because they wouldn't have had time when they cutover operations from W Phila to 30th st. This leads to my speculation that it might still be hollow, or at least structurally so, under tracks 1 and 2 near the western limits of Broad. I scanned some photos at http://johncoop.home.netcom.com/tmp/foo.htm to illustrate what I'm talking about. I don't know if anyone else finds such speculation interesting, but I enjoyed studying and trying to correlate the "before" and "after" photos. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hanel29@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg red caboose lodge Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 01:35:01 +0000 JON - I would suggest that you have to search far and wide in this nation of ours to find a government that qualifies less as an ultra liberal one as Lancaster County, PA. Incompetence in commercial management is hardly a new or rare commodity. - HANK ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] F-7 NOSE GRAB IRONS Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 21:59:19 -0500 Hi Mark--You can use Detail Associates 229-2215, Ladder Grabs. These were installed to position a ladder against in order to gain access to the windshield, etc. for servicing. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----- Original Message ----- From: "mark taylor" To: Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 2:51 PM Subject: [PRR] F-7 NOSE GRAB IRONS > Hello list , I am in the process of detailing my Athearn F-7's. My question > pertains to the grab irons above the number boards. They seem to have a very > distinctive shape, are there any grab irons commercially available? If not, > how can I make something reasonably close. Any response would be greatly > appreciated. Thanks Mark > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 19:35:26 -0400 From: "Michael A. Hmel" Subject: [PRR] E's in the " burgh " Hi List , Just wanted to let everyone know that the Excursion train made it Pittsburgh and is sitting on track four at the Amtrak station Downtown . Track four runs along the East Busway to the far right of the Station . I missed the train in Swissville , because they came through the South Side of Pittsburgh instead of down the main . Those engines look incredible , they appear to be in the best shape they have been in since they were delivered . If your in the Pittsburgh area stop down and see them , it will bring back the fondest of memories ...... Tuscan red forever Mike Hmel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Gray's Ferry tunnel Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 10:24:32 -0400 John- I don't know if it is called the Grays Ferry Tunnel. Grays Ferry is farther South from this area. As trains headed Northbound from Washington DC, they went through Arsenal interlock and either went into the present day 30th station tracks(diverge right), up onto the high line(tracks straight), or diverged left and traveled under 32nd street for 3 blocks. This area is Drexel University Campus. Septa uses the line now. This may be the tunnel you are referring to. While in the tunnel, the tracks curve right and exit the tunnel just under tracks 1 and 2 that come from the west. You are correct about the re-alignment. Keep in mind, 30th street co-existed with Broad street station until 30th streets upper and lower platforms were complete operationally. 30th street was completed in the1930's. Broad Street was there until 1952. Razed in 1953. Also in this area, the trains cut off to the left and bypassed Broad and went onto NY and points west. The stone depressed cut that carried the trains through the yard still exists. It eventually comes to grade farther west near Zoo Interlock. All of above is documented in 2 special edition issues published by the Philadelphia Chpt of the PRRTHS. They are: The Philadelphia Improvements Part I:The Idea and Projects East of the Schuylkill River - May 1979, reprint Sept 1987, Third print Dec 1990. The Philadelphia Improvements Part II: 30th Street Station - Sept 1980, reprint Feb 1988, third print Dec 1990 Also, Harry Albrecht's Broad Street Station (soft cover 6" x 9") has great area shots of Broad St. and 30th Street Stations. Anyone interested in Philadelphia and the PRR, the above publications are a must. The area is incredible to visit. PS. If you ever travel down JKF boulevard from city hall to 30th street, you are riding in the area of the old approach into Broad Street Station knows as the Chinese Wall. There is still a piece of the wall standing on the east side of the Schuylkill River, with a catenary support pole in the edge, cut off about 16 inches from the walls cornice. Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of John Cooper Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 6:32 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Gray's Ferry tunnel The discussion of tunnels and specifically the mention of the gray's ferry branch reminded me of some study I did a while ago. In the days of the West Philadelphia station, before 30th st, the original alignment of the arsenal-broad tracks was very close to it's current alignment. The radius of the curve was slightly tighter so that the tracks went under roughtly where track 1 is now and headed for roughly the center of present-day 30th st station building. The tracks were actually subgrade with retaining walls on either side. The west philadelphia station platforms were right on the curve and there was also a short tunnel right where the tracks went under the high line. As best as I can tell from photos, it appears this old subgrade alignment was covered with steel beams supported by the retaining walls to support the present day tracks 1 & 2. I can't imagine the short tunnel was daylighted, because they wouldn't have had time when they cutover operations from W Phila to 30th st. This leads to my speculation that it might still be hollow, or at least structurally so, under tracks 1 and 2 near the western limits of Broad. I scanned some photos at http://johncoop.home.netcom.com/tmp/foo.htm to illustrate what I'm talking about. I don't know if anyone else finds such speculation interesting, but I enjoyed studying and trying to correlate the "before" and "after" photos. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 11:20:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Painting of freight cars - last gap filled Gary, Elden and all, We move quick to accept the notion that the PRR received all of it's "NEW" cars with unpainted roofs. We have evidence that the roofs of the X29D in Volume 2 of the color guide had a galvanize roof but this photo is certainly a dated photo and to presume it is "NEW" is out to the question. What I had told Branchline before they released the car with a black roof was to show me evidence of car right off the original production line, prior to the X56 program and excluding the General American Leased pool cars, that has been painted with asphaltum and not overcoated with PRR Freight car color. All I got was "Ed Hawkins has this spec, that says..." NO PHOTO to fit the bill. I did get a reference photo clip of an X43 that appears to have been repainted into the Shadow Keystone and there is evidence that the roof may have been raw asphaltum, and I have a copy of the same photo I bought from Richard Burg but it is Black and White and the flat area that can be seen on the roof might be asphaltum, but nonetheless it is a repainted car. Can I explain the photo? No, but it is clearly not a General American car that Branchline continues to offer as an explanation for the spec. Here is how I see it ... with the exception of the leased Green General American 50-foot single door boxcars (that were delivered with a black asphaltum roof) I have found no evidence of an original production run of PRR box cars with unfinished galvanized or raw asphaltum roof, until the X56, which I have photo evidence that were delivered with an asphaltum roof that shows evidence of overspray rather than completely painted. MY Challenge to someone ... anyone... Show me a builders photo of a PRR boxcar that shows the roof that is either unfinished galvanized or raw asphaltum "as Delivered" prior to the X56 or the General American leased pool car and I will take this all back. SHOW ME DON'T TELL ME. OTHERWISE, Gary and Elden and whomever, paint your roof Freight Car Color and forget the black roof! If you want to show that the asphaltum is/was weathering through the paint I will give you some pointers offline. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 11:12:00 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk -tunnels- South Penn -etc. From: Beth Caples Schuylkill Division has another tunnel and it is just south of Port Cinton. It can be viewed from the eastern side of the Rte. 61 bridge. just a stones throw from the Reading tracks( Reading and northern). This tunnel has been abandoned since about the time of the formation of Con Rail. As for the South Penn. There were a lot of smaller railroads that were supporting this venture. Some recovered financially and some did not. The Reading RR was also a big backer as well. The East Broad Top RR graded some right of way that would have extended its tracks south from Neelyton to the East Penn. (could you imagine the EBT as a bridge line. would it still be a working railroad today?). There were many other smaller railroads that never fully recovered from this fiasco! Sorry that I am so late in responding to this thread but I have been very busy with my local fire dept. which seems to consume more and more of my time. John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 15:22:57 -0300 From: A Samostie Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited in Ohio / Indiana Rich Orr kindly posted the 1955 schedule for Train 29: lv. Hudson Terminal 5:48 PM Jersey City 5:51 PM Penna. Sta. 6:00 PM * lv Newark 6:14 PM * North Phila. Sta. 7:21 PM * Paoli 7:50 PM * Harrisburg 9:01 PM * Altoona 11:13 PM * Pittsburgh 1:53 AM Crestline 5:20 AM d Fort Wayne 6:24 AM d Englewood 8:30 AM d Union Sta. Chi. 8:45 AM t = Boarding only of passengers for Pittsburgh and west d = discharge of passengers only I'm not very familiar with the PRR route across Ohio and Indiana. I know the Broadway was, in both name and fact, a "Limited," so it probably didn't grind to a halt in every little town in the middle of the night. But, surely there must have been at least a few other stops west of Pittsburgh? Or, if the Broadway did not make other stops, what other PRR trains did? (I'm talking through trains here, not every local milk run). Cheers, Alan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited in Ohio / Indiana Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 15:37:03 -0400 Alan, Given the hours involved (it was the middle of the night), the "Broadway"'s principal reason for stopping at all at Crestline was a crew change. PRR operated four NY-Chicago trains in the 1950's and 1960's, the Broadway Limited, the General, the Pennsylvania Limited, and the Metropolitan Limited. It was the latter two that made the other stops and took almost 24 hours to make the trip. Most pass riders were limited to the latter two as well. Rode Amtrak's version of the Broadway between Ft. Wayne and Chicago a number of times in 1979 and don't recall it making ANY stops between the two cities.. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "A Samostie" To: Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 2:22 PM Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited in Ohio / Indiana > > Rich Orr kindly posted the 1955 schedule for Train 29: > > lv. Hudson Terminal 5:48 PM > Jersey City 5:51 PM > Penna. Sta. 6:00 PM * > lv Newark 6:14 PM * > North Phila. Sta. 7:21 PM * > Paoli 7:50 PM * > Harrisburg 9:01 PM * > Altoona 11:13 PM * > Pittsburgh 1:53 AM > Crestline 5:20 AM d > Fort Wayne 6:24 AM d > Englewood 8:30 AM d > Union Sta. Chi. 8:45 AM > > t = Boarding only of passengers for Pittsburgh and west > d = discharge of passengers only > > I'm not very familiar with the PRR route across Ohio and Indiana. I > know the Broadway was, in both name and fact, a "Limited," so it > probably didn't grind to a halt in every little town in the middle of > the night. But, surely there must have been at least a few other stops > west of Pittsburgh? Or, if the Broadway did not make other stops, what > other PRR trains did? (I'm talking through trains here, not every local > milk run). > > Cheers, > Alan > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 16:01:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited in Ohio / Indiana In a message dated 10/6/02 2:36:03 PM, mahlkov@gtcom.net writes: << Given the hours involved (it was the middle of the night), the "Broadway"'s principal reason for stopping at all at Crestline was a crew change. PRR operated four NY-Chicago trains in the 1950's and 1960's, the Broadway Limited, the General, the Pennsylvania Limited, and the Metropolitan Limited. It was the latter two that made the other stops and took almost 24 hours to make the trip. Most pass riders were limited to the latter two as well. >> My pocket pass (which is around here somewhere) was, as I recall, printed as "good on all trains on the system except #48 and #49." I remember #48 as being the westbound Broadway Limited. I thought the eastbound was "The Congressional" and that was #49. No? Then my pass had several endosrsement stamped with a rubber stamp. IIRC, "Not valid for daily commutation" and "Valid on all engines and cabin cars on the [....] Division." BTW, after I left the Pennsy, I went to work for American Airlines. The convention of numbering airline flights used to track the railroad convention; westbound flights have even numbers and eastbound flights have odd numbers. As the number of flights has increased, I believe that flight numbers now only differentiate among flights and very seldom carry directional meaning. But, I believe the PanAm round the world westbound flight was #2 and the PanAm eastbound RTW was #1. What was the name of the premier eastbound PRR train that was #49 and the turn around of the Broadway? Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Phil & Jen" Subject: [PRR] Cincinnati to Philadelphia Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 16:46:17 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C26D57.E3E4CC00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, Does anyone know which type of locomotives or the name of the trains = which ran from Cincinnati to Philadelphia in the early to mid 50's. Pete ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C26D57.E3E4CC00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello,
 
Does anyone know which type of  = locomotives or=20 the name of the trains which ran from Cincinnati to Philadelphia in the = early to=20 mid 50's.
 
Pete
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C26D57.E3E4CC00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited in Ohio / Indiana Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 17:24:25 -0400 Marty, The "Broadway Limited" ran in both directions and was trains no 28 and 29. The "General" was trains no 48 and 49. Your pass must be from the very end of PRR service, when the "Broadway" lost its all Pullman status and ran on the "General's" schedule. My Penn Central pass says "Not Valid on Trans 49, 49 or Metroliners". The "Congressionals" were New York-Washington trains. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 4:01 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited in Ohio / Indiana > > In a message dated 10/6/02 2:36:03 PM, mahlkov@gtcom.net writes: > > << Given the hours involved (it was the middle of the night), the > "Broadway"'s > > principal reason for stopping at all at Crestline was a crew change. PRR > > operated four NY-Chicago trains in the 1950's and 1960's, the Broadway > > Limited, the General, the Pennsylvania Limited, and the Metropolitan > > Limited. It was the latter two that made the other stops and took almost 24 > > hours to make the trip. Most pass riders were limited to the latter two as > > well. >> > > My pocket pass (which is around here somewhere) was, as I recall, printed as > "good on all trains on the system except #48 and #49." I remember #48 as > being the westbound Broadway Limited. I thought the eastbound was "The > Congressional" and that was #49. No? > > Then my pass had several endosrsement stamped with a rubber stamp. IIRC, "Not > valid for daily commutation" and "Valid on all engines and cabin cars on the > [....] Division." > > BTW, after I left the Pennsy, I went to work for American Airlines. The > convention of numbering airline flights used to track the railroad > convention; westbound flights have even numbers and eastbound flights have > odd numbers. As the number of flights has increased, I believe that flight > numbers now only differentiate among flights and very seldom carry > directional meaning. But, I believe the PanAm round the world westbound > flight was #2 and the PanAm eastbound RTW was #1. > > What was the name of the premier eastbound PRR train that was #49 and the > turn around of the Broadway? > > Regards, Marty > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 21:22:39 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Any RailFest Reports From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" Who attended RailFest? Any reports? Any photos? I missed it for the first time in many years. How was "the Curve"? Have they made a worthwhile difference in cutting down the trees yet? Until the view at the Curve is improved, my favorite spot in that area remains at Cresson. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 22:18:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited in Ohio / Indiana --part1_14a.155f1247.2ad248f3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Hudson Terminal and Jersey City times shown were for connecting trains that forwarded Broadway passengers to Newark for the transfer. --part1_14a.155f1247.2ad248f3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Hudson Terminal and Jersey City times shown were for connecting trains that forwarded Broadway passengers to Newark for the transfer. --part1_14a.155f1247.2ad248f3_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 22:25:44 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited in Ohio / Indiana --part1_177.fde6cb6.2ad24aa8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Broadway Limited was numbered 29 westbound, 28 eastbound until it was combined with the General. The General was 49 westbound, 48 eastbound. When the two trains were combined the numbers used were those of the General. Shortly thereafter, the General named was dropped and 48 & 49 were known simply as the Broadway Limited. The Congressionals (ca. 1950) were numbered 131 (Morning Congressional) and 153 (Afternoon Congressional) southbound between New york and Washington, 124 (Morning ...) and 152 (Afternoon ...) for the return trips. --part1_177.fde6cb6.2ad24aa8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Broadway Limited was numbered 29 westbound, 28 eastbound until it was combined with the General.  The General was 49 westbound, 48 eastbound.  When the two trains were combined the numbers used were those of the General.  Shortly thereafter, the General named was dropped and 48 & 49 were known simply as the Broadway Limited.

The Congressionals (ca. 1950) were numbered 131 (Morning Congressional) and 153 (Afternoon Congressional) southbound between New york and Washington, 124 (Morning ...) and 152 (Afternoon ...) for the return trips. --part1_177.fde6cb6.2ad24aa8_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 22:31:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Any RailFest Reports Jerry & List......... Just got back from Altoona. Yes ,the tree cutting project has started. Most of the trees around the park are gone. Some trees have been cut cut along the inside of the Curve. You can now see the signal bridge from the park. It's a good start but they still have a long way to go. But at least you can see the trains inside the Horseshoe. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 23:22:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Railfest/Pittsburgh Excursion-Overnite Trip. Jerry & List....... Saturday afternoon, I took the Altoona to Pittsburgh Overnite Excursion pulled by the restored PRR E8s. I rode the Pullman Solarium car "Kitchi-Gami" which was on the tail end of the train. What a ride!!! Once past Cresson Pa, the E units were off to the races. 65mph on the Pittsburgh Division, riding a heavyweight Pullman car is a great to spend the weekend We came off the PRR main at Pitcarin Yard to do some "rare mileage" and followed the freight route (Port Perry Branch) across the Monongahelia River. Then west towards the O.C. Bridge to cross the Ohio River, then headed east on the mainline via Island Ave/Federal St. Then we crossed the Fort Wayne Bridge to enter the station in Pittsburgh. The next morning we followed the PRR main back to Altoona via East Liberty and Swissvale. What a Ride! Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 12:39:13 -0400 From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Gray's Ferry tunnel Interesting theory. I know that on rides out of the upper level onto the Media or Wilmington lines it is possible to look out of the rear vestibule windows and still see the tunnel that was used by NY - WAS trains in the West Phila Station days. The line coming from Zoo descends in a double track cut and passes through a short tunnel connecting to the curving line coming southbound out of 30th Street's upper level. There is still a single track and the switch is still in place where the 2 routes converge in the tunnel. There was (at least until recently) still catenary over the one remaining track as well. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Gray's Ferry tunnel Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 13:42:37 -0400 Evan though the cut is littered with trash, debris, and overgrowth of tree like weeds, you can still see it very clear from the western side of the yard(houses along Drexel University's east side campus. Spring Garden Street bridge has a metal wall blocking the view. With a larger type step stool, you can look over the blocking structure and view Penn Coach Yard. Just above within almost reaching distance is the High Line. Yes, a switch from what I understand is still in the tunnel linking Zoo to Arsenal, only the cut has no track. This area is awesome to walk around. So much of PRR is still there. The high line alone is a feat in and among itself. Greg -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 12:39 PM To: johncoop@ix.netcom.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Gray's Ferry tunnel Interesting theory. I know that on rides out of the upper level onto the Media or Wilmington lines it is possible to look out of the rear vestibule windows and still see the tunnel that was used by NY - WAS trains in the West Phila Station days. The line coming from Zoo descends in a double track cut and passes through a short tunnel connecting to the curving line coming southbound out of 30th Street's upper level. There is still a single track and the switch is still in place where the 2 routes converge in the tunnel. There was (at least until recently) still catenary over the one remaining track as well. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Cooper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Gray's Ferry tunnel Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 20:11:50 -0700 Comments inserted. John -----Original Message----- From: Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr. To: John Cooper ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Sunday, October 06, 2002 7:24 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Gray's Ferry tunnel >John- > >I don't know if it is called the Grays Ferry Tunnel. Grays Ferry is farther >South from this area. As trains headed Northbound from Washington DC, they >went through Arsenal interlock and either went into the present day 30th >station tracks(diverge right), up onto the high line(tracks straight), or >diverged left and traveled under 32nd street for 3 blocks. This area is >Drexel University Campus. Septa uses the line now. This may be the tunnel >you are referring to. While in the tunnel, the tracks curve right and exit >the tunnel just under tracks 1 and 2 that come from the west. You are >correct about the re-alignment. Keep in mind, 30th street co-existed with >Broad street station until 30th streets upper and lower platforms were >complete operationally. 30th street was completed in the1930's. Broad >Street was there until 1952. Razed in 1953. All correct. Though the existing Septa tunnel under 32nd street is what I was referring to in the subject of the email (for lack of a better subject), I was actually talking about another tunnel that used to exist very near there. As a train came inbound to Broad from Arsenal, there was also a short tunnel exactly underneath the high line where tracks 1 and 2 are now. Between this tunnel and the 32nd st tunnel, was W Phila station platforms, flanked by retaining walls. > >Also in this area, the trains cut off to the left and bypassed Broad and >went onto NY and points west. The stone depressed cut that carried the >trains through the yard still exists. It eventually comes to grade farther >west near Zoo Interlock. > This was originally the NY-Washington mainline. Somewhere down in the 32nd st tunnel area there should have been platforms for W Phila Station. Does anyone know if evidence of these platforms still exists? More interesting would be to know if there is evidence of having patched the wall where the old alignment diverged. >All of above is documented in 2 special edition issues published by the >Philadelphia Chpt of the PRRTHS. They are: > >The Philadelphia Improvements Part I:The Idea and Projects East of the >Schuylkill River - May 1979, reprint Sept 1987, Third print Dec 1990. >The Philadelphia Improvements Part II: 30th Street Station - Sept 1980, >reprint Feb 1988, third print Dec 1990 > Also, Harry Albrecht's Broad Street Station (soft cover 6" x 9") has great >area shots of Broad St. and 30th Street Stations. > I have Part 2, which is my source of photos. Page 14 clearly shows the tunnel under the highline, and the tunnel for the new alignment. There are two huts between the new and old alignment which are still there. Existing cat poles can even be seen under construction. The girders supporting current track 1 and 2 can be seen in picture top of page 19. Other end of tunnel under high line can be seen in photo on page 11 with existing alignment for track 1 & 2 already visible I should probably get Part 1. >Anyone interested in Philadelphia and the PRR, the above publications are a >must. The area is incredible to visit. > >PS. If you ever travel down JKF boulevard from city hall to 30th street, >you are riding in the area of the old approach into Broad Street Station >knows as the Chinese Wall. There is still a piece of the wall standing on >the east side of the Schuylkill River, with a catenary support pole in the >edge, cut off about 16 inches from the walls cornice. > I'll have to look for this next time I'm east. John >-----Original Message----- >From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of John Cooper >Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 6:32 PM >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] Gray's Ferry tunnel > >The discussion of tunnels and specifically the mention of the gray's ferry >branch reminded me of some study I did a while ago. > >In the days of the West Philadelphia station, before 30th st, the original >alignment of the arsenal-broad tracks was very close to it's >current alignment. The radius of the curve was slightly tighter so that the >tracks went under roughly where track 1 is now and headed for roughly the >center of present-day 30th st station building. The tracks were actually >subgrade with retaining walls on either side. The west philadelphia station >platforms were right on the curve and there was also a short tunnel right >where the tracks went under the high line. > >As best as I can tell from photos, it appears this old subgrade alignment >was covered with steel beams supported by the retaining walls to support the >present day tracks 1 & 2. I can't imagine the short tunnel was daylighted, >because they wouldn't have had time >when they cutover operations from W Phila to 30th st. This leads >to my speculation that it might still be hollow, or at least structurally >so, under tracks 1 and 2 near the western limits of Broad. > >I scanned some photos at http://johncoop.home.netcom.com/tmp/foo.htm to >illustrate what I'm talking about. > >I don't know if anyone else finds such speculation interesting, but I >enjoyed studying and trying to correlate the "before" and "after" photos. > >John > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 06:20:42 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Any RailFest Reports From: Jerry Britton On 10/6/02 10:31 PM, "zootowerprr@webtv.net" wrote: > Just got back from Altoona. Yes ,the tree cutting project has > started. Most of the trees around the park are gone. Some trees have > been cut cut along the inside of the Curve. You can now see the signal > bridge from the park. That's an excellent start, anyway. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 06:22:26 -0400 From: Zak Subject: [PRR] Query on a paint job on an eBay item This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_+rVUla/Sn0INc5IxCw+fXg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi, List. I apologize for this question for two reasons: first that I know that we shouldn't talk talk about commercial things here, and second because I know that the PRR had no F7A units painted in passenger TR with striping. My question, should you want to view this at: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1775386837 - I really hope I typed that in correctly, as I'm not going to do it again - is about that flash of striping directly behind the numberboard. Did any PRR E, F, or FP unit ever have that little flash on it? I've seen it on a couple of items on eBay, but can find no reference to it while doing searches for PRR paint jobs. Thanks in advance, Zak --Boundary_(ID_+rVUla/Sn0INc5IxCw+fXg) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Hi, List.
 
I apologize for this question for two reasons:  first that I know that we shouldn't talk talk about commercial things here, and second because I know that the PRR had no F7A units painted in passenger TR with striping.
 
My question, should you want to view this at: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1775386837 - I really hope I typed that in correctly, as I'm not going to do it again - is about that flash of striping directly behind the numberboard.
 
Did any PRR E, F, or FP unit ever have that little flash on it?  I've seen it on a couple of items on eBay, but can find no reference to it while doing searches for PRR paint jobs.
 
Thanks in advance,
 
Zak
--Boundary_(ID_+rVUla/Sn0INc5IxCw+fXg)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 06:36:53 -0400 From: Zak Subject: [PRR] Paint Removal Query This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_5vfMITmqMwmgWdPqQIdEjg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi, List. Would "Easy-Lift-Off Paint and Decal Remover" (Micro-Mark item # 60875) be a good choice for removing paint/decals from an assortment of car bodies from a differnt manufacturers? Zak --Boundary_(ID_5vfMITmqMwmgWdPqQIdEjg) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Hi, List.
 
Would "Easy-Lift-Off Paint and Decal Remover" (Micro-Mark item # 60875) be a good choice for removing paint/decals from an assortment of car bodies from a differnt manufacturers?
 
Zak
--Boundary_(ID_5vfMITmqMwmgWdPqQIdEjg)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 08:01:05 -0400 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited in Ohio / Indiana Greg & folks, Always good to see discussion of Pennsy passenger operations. In addition to the Pennsy Chicago-NY trains that were mentioned, it might be pointed out that in the 1950's the Admiral ran in both directions, as did the Fort Pitt, and there was also the Gotham Limited. There was too, the Liberty Ltd, runing the same route as far east as Harrisburg, where it headed south on the Northern Central to Baltimore and Washington. The Golden Triangle was a separate train between Chicago and Pittsburgh in the 1950's. The service cuts in the late 50's saw the Gotham discontinued, and the Pennsylvania Ltd had it's time adjusted to run pretty close to the Gotham's time, as well as being combined with the Golden Triangle. Also dropped by 1960 had been #44, an un-named mail clunker running eastbound-only Chicago-Pittsburgh; the westbound Admiral and eastbound Fort Pitt, not to mention the Liberty Ltd. (The Liberty's demise was compensated for somewhat by having Washington cars added to the General). Thanks for the discussion, gents, and regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 08:10:03 -0500 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] PRR air piping Hi, everyone, I've been studying photos of PRR steam locomotives from the WW I period and they have raised a question. In later years, most PRR steam engines had the familiar multiple "layers" of piping asociated with the air pumps and air reservoirs. I've understood these to (in part) be needed to cool the air. Whatever the purpose, they are common features on PRR steam after c.1930, usually hanging under the running boards. BUT go back to the WW I period and there is virtually none of this layered piping. Not that I'm complaining - it certainly simplifies modeling. But why less piping? Was it something to do with the "K" brake systems in use around WW I? Did the later "AB" systems need more piping for some reason? George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 08:46:11 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Query on a paint job on an eBay item Zak asks: > Hi, List. I apologize for this question for two reasons: first >that I know that we shouldn't talk talk about commercial things here, and >second because I know that the PRR had no F7A units painted in passenger >TR with striping. My question, should you want to view this at: >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1775386837 - I really >hope I typed that in correctly, as I'm not going to do it again - is >about that flash of striping directly behind the numberboard. Did any >PRR E, F, or FP unit ever have that little flash on it? Rule #1, never trust a manufacturer's paint job. Always work from photos of the real thing. As for the thingy behind the numberboard...it looks like that loco creamed a yellow blooded martian at a grade crossing...sheesh! A much smaller version of the teardrop was applied to F units, for example these F3s http://www.prrths.com/Phila_Grant_Huntington04.html, this F7 (scroll down http://madisonrails.railfan.net/junction.html) as well as GG1s. I'm not sure about E units, as the only photos I found in a quick online search showed both 5 stripe and single stripe Tuscan units with the stripes through the numberboards and therefore no teardrop. >Would "Easy-Lift-Off Paint and Decal Remover" (Micro-Mark item # 60875) >be a good choice for removing paint/decals from an assortment of car >bodies from a differnt manufacturers? 2) Yes and no. A safer, slightly less toxic and generally more effective stripper is 91% isopropyl alcohol (Note that if less than 90%, it won't work!). ELO will damage some plastics very severely, most notably I believe some Kato loco shells. Of course, in the end, if you are doing lots of stripping, a grit blaster is your best friend. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 10:42:26 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] F-7 NOSE GRAB IRONS I think what you are referring to are called "ladder rests" . The distinctive shape is intended to place a ladder on, and keep it from sliding off. These are also common on the roofs of passenger cars. Detail Assoc's makes them in HO. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== mark taylor wrote: > Hello list , I am in the process of detailing my Athearn F-7's. My question > pertains to the grab irons above the number boards. They seem to have a very > distinctive shape, are there any grab irons commercially available? If not, > how can I make something reasonably close. Any response would be greatly > appreciated. Thanks Mark > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 08:43:03 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Partial bibliography of form CT1000 et al. Over the weekend, I ran into Pat McKinney who reminded me that it's been a while since I put out a revision of this list. Looked in my "sent messages" and yikes, it's been over a year. In large part. that's because no-one has sent in any new information. Thanks for information received to Jim Aldridge, Jeff Feldmeier, Bob Johnson, Pat McKinney, Paul Schopp, Tom Sellers, Garry Spear, Dave Wartell. So, here's the 10th revision again, and a hope that in the past year lots of folks have found CT1000's or their predecessors and have new data to add to the list. Editions were printed in: 1946 Supplement to 1945 edition, date not certain 1945 ------------+ 1923 | 1918 | 1915 | 1913 | 1911 Form C. T. 1000 ???? | (???? means "don't know") 1907 | 1906 | 1905 | 1904 | 1903 | 1902 | 1901 | 1900 ------------+ 1899 Form number not known (see comment below) 1898 Form C. T. 1000 1897 Form number not known ???? Form number not known 1895 ------------+ ???? | 1892 | 1891 Form C. R. 76 ???? | 1888 | 1887 ------------+ ???? Form number not known 1882 ------------+ ???? Form 76 C. R. 1879 ------------+ 1878 Form number not known 1877 Form 89 C. R. 1876 Form number not known ???? I'm being hyper-correct on those form numbers around 1898. Remember that the 1900 CT1000 says "...supercedes edition of 1899" without saying what the 1899 form number was. That appears to be the situation with the 1898/1897 books also. For myself, if the 1898 and 1900 books were Form CT1000, I can't imagine the 1899 book having any other form number. But note: The 1895 book is known to have been Form CR76, 1898 Form CT1000. So, 'tis possible that "the edition of 1897" was a Form CR76. It would be nice to know, wouldn't it? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Colman Gerald Subject: [PRR] Weathered Painted Wood Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 11:57:50 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C26E22.ABC96080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To list: Can anybody help me or give me advice on the following: I am building an Icing Platform from stained wood and would like to simulate weathered paint over the stained wood. I would like to get the effect of peeling in small and large spots on the face of the planks along with the edges. I tried painting then drying followed by rubbing areas with a Q-tip dipped in thiner. That gave me a worn look but not peeling. I then tried placing small dabs of Vaseline with a toothpick on random areas, then painting with acrylic. Once dried, I brushed the area with a toothbrush and that gave me a more peeled look. The trouble is I can only get relatively large-area peels. I would like to get very small peel dots. Can anyone shed some light? Thanks in advance, Jerry Colman ------_=_NextPart_001_01C26E22.ABC96080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Weathered Painted Wood

To list:

Can anybody help me or give me advice on the = following:

I am building an Icing Platform from stained wood and = would like to simulate weathered paint over the stained wood.  I = would like to get the effect of peeling in small and large spots on the = face of the planks along with the edges.  I tried painting then = drying followed by rubbing areas with a Q-tip dipped in thiner.  = That gave me a worn look but not peeling.  I then tried placing = small dabs of Vaseline with a toothpick on random areas, then painting = with acrylic.  Once dried, I brushed the area with a toothbrush = and that gave me a more peeled look.  The trouble is I can only = get relatively large-area peels.  I would like to get very small = peel dots.  Can anyone shed some light?

Thanks in advance,
Jerry Colman

------_=_NextPart_001_01C26E22.ABC96080-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 13:16:36 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Weathered Painted Wood You're a sick man Jerry. Stick to playing second base for the Yankees - they're all sick men ;-) On a more positive note, have you tried using an air brush at very low pressure so that it intentionally splatters the paint? Just a thought, I haven't tried it (my sickness is different than yours) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Colman Gerald wrote: > > > To list: > > Can anybody help me or give me advice on the following: > > I am building an Icing Platform from stained wood and would like to > simulate weathered paint over the stained wood. I would like to get > the effect of peeling in small and large spots on the face of the > planks along with the edges. I tried painting then drying followed by > rubbing areas with a Q-tip dipped in thiner. That gave me a worn look > but not peeling. I then tried placing small dabs of Vaseline with a > toothpick on random areas, then painting with acrylic. Once dried, I > brushed the area with a toothbrush and that gave me a more peeled > look. The trouble is I can only get relatively large-area peels. I > would like to get very small peel dots. Can anyone shed some light? > > Thanks in advance, > Jerry Colman -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Peeling paint Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 17:53:07 +0000 Here in the end of the line area (Chicago)I have seen some good results using rubber cement instead of vaseline. It can be put on with a toothpick in relatively small amounts and then peels off easily after the paint dries. i wouldn't want to be the one to do very much of it though but then I do things others wouldn't. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Weathered Painted Wood Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 11:01:19 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C26E2B.89CD2FD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Jerry, Andrew, Rubber cement applied with a toothpick can be removed afterward with an eraser or finger, leaving a nice peeled off area exactly where you want it. Paint the wood initially with a grey wash, then after rubber cementing with your faded "paint". It has worked well for me. Another method is to buy one of those pencil-tipped brass brushes. Micro Mark has one. You can scratch off the outer coat to your liking. Best, Elden ------_=_NextPart_001_01C26E2B.89CD2FD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Weathered Painted Wood

Jerry, Andrew, Rubber cement applied with a toothpick = can be removed afterward with an eraser or finger, leaving a nice = peeled off area exactly where you want it.  Paint the wood = initially with a grey wash, then after rubber cementing with your faded = "paint".  It has worked well for me.  Another = method is to buy one of those pencil-tipped brass brushes.  Micro = Mark has one.  You can scratch off the outer coat to your = liking.

Best,
Elden

------_=_NextPart_001_01C26E2B.89CD2FD0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 14:00:55 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Weathered Painted Wood In a message dated Mon, 7 Oct 2002 11:57:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, ColmanG@tce.com writes: > I would like to get the effect of peeling in small and > large spots on the face of the planks along with the edges. Jerry, Here is an old tip from a friend of mine that models the Santa Fe in Texas. Wet your wood lightly and add cream of wheat, (yep Cream of Wheat or Rice)Spray the wood with whatever color it is you wish to paint the finish. Allow it to dry and brush away the Cream of Wheat or Rice and you will have a sucessful paint peel. Sounds strange, works great. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 11:11:19 -0700 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] Peeling paint Hi Jerry, All, I have an oddball idea. Have not tried it. I don't own one yet but have read about "oil misters" that are used to mist olive oil, etc... onto salads or greens. Would likely find at gourmet shops? An alternative might be trying to spray some oil or oil/water mix at a low setting through your airbrush? I guess for that matter if you are using oil based paints you might even just try a fine spray plant mister using water. I am not sure if any of these possibilities would yield small enough areas for your purposes? Just some off the wall thoughts. If you try them let us know the results. Respectfully, Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 16:13:21 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Weathered Painted Wood Beein' as it's Texas, I assumed one would use grits . . . Jim McDaniel, in Delmarva (Virginia) where we eat-- and grow -- Irish potatoes for breakfast ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 20:59:19 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] Railfest/Pittsburgh Excursion-Overnite Trip. Excuse me! We hit 79 MPH, I saw it myself zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > > Jerry & List....... > > Saturday afternoon, I took the Altoona to Pittsburgh Overnite > Excursion pulled by the restored PRR E8s. I rode the Pullman Solarium > car "Kitchi-Gami" which was on the tail end of the train. What a ride!!! > Once past Cresson Pa, the E units were off to the races. > 65mph on the Pittsburgh Division, riding a heavyweight Pullman car is a > great to spend the weekend We > came off the PRR main at Pitcarin Yard to do some "rare mileage" and > followed the freight route (Port Perry Branch) across the Monongahelia > River. Then west towards the O.C. Bridge to cross the Ohio River, then > headed east on the mainline via Island Ave/Federal St. Then we crossed > the Fort Wayne Bridge to enter the station in Pittsburgh. > The next morning we followed the PRR main back to Altoona via > East Liberty and Swissvale. What a Ride! > > Dave > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 21:39:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Railfest/Pittsburgh Excursion-Overnite Trip. I stand corrected.......79mph! OK. Was the "What a Ride" part right? :-) Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Paint Removal Query Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 22:49:01 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C26E53.BB0FA1E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I use auto brake fluid. Let the model sit in it for a short while. Paint will come right off. Also, denatured alcohol will work. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Zak Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 6:37 AM To: prr-talk Subject: [PRR] Paint Removal Query Hi, List. Would "Easy-Lift-Off Paint and Decal Remover" (Micro-Mark item # 60875) be a good choice for removing paint/decals from an assortment of car bodies from a differnt manufacturers? Zak ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C26E53.BB0FA1E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I = use auto brake fluid. Let the model sit in it for a short while.  Paint will come right = off.  Also, denatured alcohol will = work.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf = Of Zak
Sent: Monday, October 07, = 2002 6:37 AM
To: prr-talk
Subject: [PRR] Paint = Removal Query

 

Hi, List.

 <= /p>

Would "Easy-Lift-Off Paint and Decal Remover" (Micro-Mark item # = 60875) be a good choice for removing paint/decals from an assortment of car bodies = from a differnt manufacturers?

 <= /p>

Zak<= /p>

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C26E53.BB0FA1E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 23:47:34 -0400 From: Bill Subject: [PRR] Dave Sweetland's new PRR Book Dave has asked me to pass along that he is selling his new PRR Color Pictorial Vol. III signed at $45.00 plus $3.00 S&H. List price is $59.95. The book is due to delivered to Dave the week of October 14th. Dave can be contacted at: David Sweetland 702 McKernan Ln. Exton, PA 19341 Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton" Subject: RE: [PRR] Paint Removal Query Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 09:00:19 +0100 >>I use auto brake fluid. Let the model sit in it for a short while. Paint will come right off. Also, denatured alcohol will work.<< Be very, very, careful with this – brake fluid will dissolve some models or turn the plastic rubbery and unpaintable - it depends entirely on the plastic used, and success with one maker’s cars may not be a guide to success with another’s models. Alcohols work on acrylic and similar paints, but for solvent based paints nothing beats a strong caustic soda solution Aidrian The Voice of Experience Yorkshire --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 03/10/2002 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 06:41:14 -0400 From: TWRimer@uss.com Subject: [PRR] N6 caboose Did the Pennsy ever install their radio antenna rig on any N6 wooden cabooses? I've never seen a photo of one equipped as-such, but as I've learned over the years with the Pennsy, never say never. Thank You Tom Rimer twrimer@uss.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 07:20:53 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: weathered paint on icing station Jerry, A few years back there was a good article on peeling paint in MR. The author took rubber cement and created "patches" over his base coat, he then painted over it with the final coat. After it dried he peeled the rubber cement off and it left a nice "peeled" area. This method should work with small areas as well as large ones. Regards, Nick Kulp Can anybody help me or give me advice on the following: I am building an Icing Platform from stained wood and would like to simulate weathered paint over the stained wood. I would like to get the effect of peeling in small and large spots on the face of the planks along with the edges. I tried painting then drying followed by rubbing areas with a Q-tip dipped in thiner. That gave me a worn look but not peeling. I then tried placing small dabs of Vaseline with a toothpick on random areas, then painting with acrylic. Once dried, I brushed the area with a toothbrush and that gave me a more peeled look. The trouble is I can only get relatively large-area peels. I would like to get very small peel dots. Can anyone shed some light? Thanks in advance, Jerry Colman http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 04:53:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Randolph Harrison Subject: [PRR] Pensylvania Avenue Station? --0-182564806-1034077986=:46743 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Do any of you know of the existance of a former Pennsylvania Avenue Station in Baltimore, Maryland? It would have been at the south portal to the B&P Tunnel on the main line to Washington D.C. I have seen it referred to in captions to several old photographs in books. My mother, through her father who was a 44 year PRR man, knew quite a bit about the PRR. She said that she had never heard of it. She traveled extensively on the PRR on her father's pass. She was born in 1918. My grandfather would have known. But, he passed away in 1963, long before I ever heard of the Pennsylvania Avenue Station. Did this station exist? If so, was it underground or open platforms, with stairs to the street, down in the cut where the tracks are? Thanks for any information. Randy Harrison --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com --0-182564806-1034077986=:46743 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Do any of you know of the existance of a former Pennsylvania Avenue Station in Baltimore, Maryland? It would have been at the south portal to the B&P Tunnel on the main line to Washington D.C. I have seen it referred to in captions to several old photographs in books. My mother, through her father who was a 44 year PRR man, knew quite a bit about the PRR. She said that she had never heard of it. She traveled extensively on the PRR on her father's pass. She was born in 1918. My grandfather would have known. But, he passed away in 1963, long before I ever heard of the Pennsylvania Avenue Station. Did this station exist? If so, was it underground or open platforms, with stairs to the street, down in the cut where the tracks are?

Thanks for any information.

Randy Harrison


Do you Yahoo!?
Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more
faith.yahoo.com --0-182564806-1034077986=:46743-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Conan Evans" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pensylvania Avenue Station? Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 08:33:45 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01C26EA5.6AAE6B30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The station did exist. One can still see the platforms. On several occasions I've been in that neighborhood at street level and looked down into the "pit" where the tracks exit B&P and then duck back into another short tunnel which I'm not sure of its name. From street level, I've found it is very difficult to photograph down into the "pit". What I have as far as photographs are plagued by shadows and poor composition. To any extent, a step ladder is required because the area is heavily fenced and barricaded. Furthermore, the surrounding neighborhood gives the Anacostia area a good name; I used very extreme caution. A couple of times I've rode an Amtrak or MARC train and have seen both sides at platform level. Several years ago, the Sun newspaper did a story on the B&P tunnels and gave a description of the Pennsylvania Ave station. I can't really give an accurate time frame of when the story was printed. To through out some questions for discussion, when was the gauntlet installed thru the B&P tunnels? On the south side of the tunnels was an interchange with the Western Maryland Railroad. Just a couple of years ago, one could see a WM billboard painted on a warehouse building side from the NEC tracks. The PRR at one time had quite a track plan on the southeast side of Baltimore. Lots of industrial stubs branched off the main. Anybody have any track plans of that area? I'm reluctant to use "Main Line" in PRR reference because at one time, the line south of Baltimore was actually a branch down to Popes Creek on the Potomac river. At Bowie, MD the PRR ran a "branch" over to Washington DC. Conan Evans Bristow, VA nee Baltimorean -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Randolph Harrison Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 7:53 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Pensylvania Avenue Station? Do any of you know of the existance of a former Pennsylvania Avenue Station in Baltimore, Maryland? It would have been at the south portal to the B&P Tunnel on the main line to Washington D.C. I have seen it referred to in captions to several old photographs in books. My mother, through her father who was a 44 year PRR man, knew quite a bit about the PRR. She said that she had never heard of it. She traveled extensively on the PRR on her father's pass. She was born in 1918. My grandfather would have known. But, he passed away in 1963, long before I ever heard of the Pennsylvania Avenue Station. Did this station exist? If so, was it underground or open platforms, with stairs to the street, down in the cut where the tracks are? Thanks for any information. Randy Harrison ------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01C26EA5.6AAE6B30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The=20 station did exist.  One can still see the platforms.  On = several=20 occasions I've been in that neighborhood at street level and looked down = into=20 the "pit" where the tracks exit B&P and then duck back into another = short=20 tunnel which I'm not sure of its name.  From street level, I've = found it is=20 very difficult to photograph down into the "pit".  What I have as = far as=20 photographs are plagued by shadows and poor composition.  To any = extent, a=20 step ladder is required because the area is heavily fenced and = barricaded. =20 Furthermore, the surrounding neighborhood gives the Anacostia area a = good=20 name;  I used very extreme caution. 
 
A=20 couple of times I've rode an Amtrak or MARC train and have seen both = sides at=20 platform level.  Several years ago, the Sun newspaper did a story = on the=20 B&P tunnels and gave a description of the Pennsylvania Ave = station.  I=20 can't really give an accurate time frame of when the story was=20 printed.
 
To=20 through out some questions for discussion, when was the gauntlet=20 installed thru the B&P tunnels?  On the south side of = the=20 tunnels was an interchange with the Western Maryland Railroad.  = Just a=20 couple of years ago, one could see a WM billboard painted on a warehouse = building side from the NEC tracks.  The PRR at one time had quite a = track=20 plan on the southeast side of Baltimore.  Lots of industrial stubs = branched=20 off the main.  Anybody have any track plans of that=20 area?
 
I'm=20 reluctant to use "Main Line" in PRR reference because at one time, the = line=20 south of Baltimore was actually a branch down to Popes Creek on the = Potomac=20 river.  At Bowie, MD the PRR ran a "branch" over to Washington = DC. =20
 
Conan=20 Evans
Bristow, VA
nee Baltimorean
 
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Randolph=20 Harrison
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 7:53 = AM
To:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Pensylvania Avenue=20 Station?

Do any of you know of the existance of a former Pennsylvania Avenue = Station=20 in Baltimore, Maryland? It would have been at the south portal to the = B&P=20 Tunnel on the main line to Washington D.C. I have seen it referred to = in=20 captions to several old photographs in books. My mother, through her = father=20 who was a 44 year PRR man, knew quite a bit about the PRR. She said = that she=20 had never heard of it. She traveled extensively on the PRR on her = father's=20 pass. She was born in 1918. My grandfather would have known. But, he = passed=20 away in 1963, long before I ever heard of the Pennsylvania Avenue = Station. Did=20 this station exist? If so, was it underground or open platforms, with = stairs=20 to the street, down in the cut where the tracks are?

Thanks for any information.

Randy Harrison


------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01C26EA5.6AAE6B30-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 06:33:49 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] List of Stations and Sidings... The 1923 List of Stations and Sidings and Instructions for Making Reports to the Superintendent of Car Service (or whatever the title was that year), otherwise known as the 1923 CT1000, notes that it supercedes the 1918 CT1000 and the 1913 PL506. PL506 appears to be the Lines West version of CT1000. Recently a 1905 PL506 was sold on eBay, and a few years ago a 1913 PL506 sold there also. Thus we know that the 1913 PL506 was the last one and that there was one in 1905. I'm hoping that the fellow who bought the 1905 will let me know what it superceded. There was also a CR4, the Long Island Railroad's "List of Stations and...". There are two in a libary in New York, dated 1924 and 1913. Apparently the LIRR books remained separate from the CT1000. Does anyone have or know of other editions in these two series? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Chiacgo Chapter PRRT&HS Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 13:45:12 +0000 Fo those who are interested we had our first meeting on Saturday and I had a blast. We had two guys who worked Englewood tower who kept us enthralled for three hours with stories. We have at least five guys I would rank as experts regarding the PRR in the Chicago area. One of the best stories we heard was about a tower so close to the tracks that they emptied the trash by dumping it from the tower into the first open car that went by! The three hours went by far too quickly. We will be going to the 20th Cnetury RR club viewing roon in Chicago in November as an unofficial outing and our next meeting is scheduled for January 4 at this point. If you are on the fence we would love to have you join us and be a founding member of a brand new chapter that already appears that the contribution it can make to the society will be significant in the future. By January we should be at least 20 strong as there were several people who couldn't make it Saturday. Future programs will include one by George Pierson on PRR engines of the 1920's (his area of interest) and one that will consist of slides taken at Englewood in the late 40's. We are leaning toward calling ourselves the "Chicago Terminal" chapter but nearly everything is up in the air at this point. If you are in the midwest you really should mark your calendar for 1/4 and plan to attend. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] CUT Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 13:46:36 +0000 Anybody see the Presidents speach last night? Did that take place at CUT? Sure looked like it could have been to me with the murals in the background. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 10:02:40 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] CUT On Tue, Oct 08, 2002 at 01:46:36PM +0000, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Anybody see the Presidents speach last night? Did that take place at CUT? > Sure looked like it could have been to me with the murals in the background. Yes, it did. NPR actually mentioned this fact several times during its broadcast. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 09:09:04 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] CUT From: Roger P Hensley Yes it was. On Tue, 08 Oct 2002 13:46:36 +0000 ndbprr@att.net writes: > Anybody see the Presidents speach last night? Did that take place at > CUT? > Sure looked like it could have been to me with the murals in the > background. Roger Hensley === Railroads of Madison County === === http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ === ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 10:38:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pensylvania Avenue Station? --part1_11a.182b2b41.2ad447e1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/8/02 8:00:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hbcrandy@yahoo.com writes: > Do any of you know of the existance of a former Pennsylvania Avenue Station > in Baltimore, Maryland? It would have been at the south portal to the B&P > Tunnel on the main line to Washington D.C. I have seen it referred to in > captions to several old photographs in books. My mother, through her father > who was a 44 year PRR man, knew quite a bit about the PRR. She said that > she had never heard of it. She traveled extensively on the PRR on her > father's pass. She was born in 1918. My grandfather would have known. But, > he passed away in 1963, long before I ever heard of the Pennsylvania Avenue > Station. Did this station exist? If so, was it underground or open > platforms, with stairs to the street, down in the cut where the tracks are? > > Thanks for any information. > > Randy Harrison > Hi Randy and others, The Spring 1995 issue of the Keystone (Vol. 28, No. 1) has an extensive article on the PRR in Baltimore by Frank A. Wrabel. The Pennsylvania Ave. Station is shown in a photo of the front of the station at street level and a drawing of the rear of the station and platforms. Access to the platforms from the street would appear to be by stairways inside of the station building. The station was two stories high at street level and two stories down from street level to the platforms, which were in the cut. A 1949 PRR map of Baltimore does not show any indication of the station. The article also shows plans of the Edmonson Ave. in West Baltimore. Check the PRRT&HS web site, http://www.prrths.com/, for availabilty of Keystone back issues. For anyone interested in the PRR in Baltimore, this issue is a must. Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_11a.182b2b41.2ad447e1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/8/02 8:00:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hbcrandy@yahoo.com writes:


Do any of you know of the existance of a former Pennsylvania Avenue Station in Baltimore, Maryland? It would have been at the south portal to the B&P Tunnel on the main line to Washington D.C. I have seen it referred to in captions to several old photographs in books. My mother, through her father who was a 44 year PRR man, knew quite a bit about the PRR. She said that she had never heard of it. She traveled extensively on the PRR on her father's pass. She was born in 1918. My grandfather would have known. But, he passed away in 1963, long before I ever heard of the Pennsylvania Avenue Station. Did this station exist? If so, was it underground or open platforms, with stairs to the street, down in the cut where the tracks are?

Thanks for any information.

Randy Harrison


Hi Randy and others,

The Spring 1995 issue of the Keystone (Vol. 28, No. 1) has an extensive article on the PRR in Baltimore by Frank A. Wrabel.  The Pennsylvania Ave. Station is shown in a photo of the front of the station at street level and a drawing of the rear of the station and platforms.  Access to the platforms from the street would appear to be by stairways inside of the station building.  The station was two stories high at street level and two stories down from street level to the platforms, which were in the cut.  A 1949 PRR map of Baltimore does not show any indication of the station.  The article also shows plans of the Edmonson Ave. in West Baltimore.

Check the PRRT&HS web site, http://www.prrths.com/,  for availabilty of Keystone back issues.  For anyone interested in the PRR in Baltimore, this issue is a must.

Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_11a.182b2b41.2ad447e1_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: Re: [PRR] List of Stations and Sidings... Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 09:33:11 -0400 Gents; Ebay has a whole list of old PRR phone books and books with this title as we speak. Type in PRR BOOKS. Might be surprised what is there. Earl Myers ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert netzlof" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 9:33 AM Subject: [PRR] List of Stations and Sidings... > The 1923 List of Stations and Sidings and Instructions for Making > Reports to the Superintendent of Car Service (or whatever the title > was that year), otherwise known as the 1923 CT1000, notes that it > supercedes the 1918 CT1000 and the 1913 PL506. > > PL506 appears to be the Lines West version of CT1000. Recently a 1905 > PL506 was sold on eBay, and a few years ago a 1913 PL506 sold there > also. > > Thus we know that the 1913 PL506 was the last one and that there was > one in 1905. I'm hoping that the fellow who bought the 1905 will let > me know what it superceded. > > There was also a CR4, the Long Island Railroad's "List of Stations > and...". There are two in a libary in New York, dated 1924 and 1913. > Apparently the LIRR books remained separate from the CT1000. > > Does anyone have or know of other editions in these two series? > > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More > http://faith.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 10:51:47 -0400 From: Zak Subject: [PRR] Paint and Paint Job Questions This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_owxxPBCoui9zzpktF2kDBw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Thanks to all that replied to my two questions. For those who are into biking, I found out a few years back that brake fluid also does a pretty good job on taking rust off of chrome. Zak --Boundary_(ID_owxxPBCoui9zzpktF2kDBw) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Thanks to all that replied to my two questions.
 
For those who are into biking, I found out a few years back that brake fluid also does a pretty good job on taking rust off of chrome.

Zak
--Boundary_(ID_owxxPBCoui9zzpktF2kDBw)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 08:25:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Randolph Harrison Subject: [PRR] Baltimore Chapter of PRRT&HS?? --0-1663574211-1034090750=:11492 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Is their a Baltimore, Maryland local chapter of the PRRT&HS? If not, is anyone interested in starting one? Randy Harrison --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com --0-1663574211-1034090750=:11492 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Is their a Baltimore, Maryland local chapter of the PRRT&HS? If not, is anyone interested in starting one?

Randy Harrison


Do you Yahoo!?
Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more
faith.yahoo.com --0-1663574211-1034090750=:11492-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 08:28:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Randolph Harrison Subject: Re: [PRR] Pensylvania Avenue Station? --0-59483466-1034090919=:38004 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thank you to all who responded to my qery on Pennsylvania Avenue Station in Baltimore, Maryland. Randy Harrison --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com --0-59483466-1034090919=:38004 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Thank you to all who responded to my qery on Pennsylvania Avenue Station in Baltimore, Maryland.

Randy Harrison


Do you Yahoo!?
Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more
faith.yahoo.com --0-59483466-1034090919=:38004-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: RE: [PRR] Chicago Chapter PRRT&HS Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 10:37:45 -0500 Norm and List, Norm, thanks for taking the time to get things rolling. I know that I'm not the only one who enjoyed the fellowship. I would like to thank all the people who shared their models, prototype information and real life adventures. The time went by too fast. Pete Reinhold Prairie Du Sac, WI ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago Chapter PRRT&HS Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 10:37:32 -0400 Gents; Is the Chi Chapter up & running yet as a Chapter?? I live in Ohio so a Lines West Chapter would be a good thing to belong to..... Earl Myers ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Reinhold" To: "PRR-TALK" Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 11:37 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Chicago Chapter PRRT&HS > Norm and List, > > Norm, thanks for taking the time to get things rolling. I know that > I'm not the only one who enjoyed the fellowship. I would like to thank > all the people who shared their models, prototype information and real > life adventures. The time went by too fast. > > Pete Reinhold > Prairie Du Sac, WI > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 11:57:45 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Baltimore Chapter of PRRT&HS?? From: Jerry Britton On 10/8/02 11:25 AM, Randolph Harrison (hbcrandy@yahoo.com) wrote: > Is their a Baltimore, Maryland local chapter of the PRRT&HS? If not, is anyone > interested in starting one? > There's not, and there "may" not be enough interest. There is a Northern Central Chapter, named after the Northern Central Branch, which ran from Baltimore, through York and Harrisburg and Williamsport, eventually to Sodus Point NY. The chapter, however, concentrates on the line between Baltimore and Harrisburg, with a good bit of discussion on Baltimore. Meetings are held in York, and there are numerous members that come north from Maryland to attend these meetings. The only feasible chapter possibility I would foresee would be one between Baltimore and Washington. By bringing Washington into the mix, you might be able to generate more interest, plus you may draw PRR fans from Virginia. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 09:08:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Randolph Harrison Subject: Re: [PRR] Baltimore/Washington Chapter of PRRT&HS?? --0-2092287824-1034093306=:52198 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks to Mr. Britton's advice below, let me rephrase my proposal. Would anyone be interested in starting a local Baltimore/Washington chapter of the PRRT&HS? Randy Harrison Jerry Britton wrote:On 10/8/02 11:25 AM, Randolph Harrison (hbcrandy@yahoo.com) wrote: > Is their a Baltimore, Maryland local chapter of the PRRT&HS? If not, is anyone > interested in starting one? > There's not, and there "may" not be enough interest. There is a Northern Central Chapter, named after the Northern Central Branch, which ran from Baltimore, through York and Harrisburg and Williamsport, eventually to Sodus Point NY. The chapter, however, concentrates on the line between Baltimore and Harrisburg, with a good bit of discussion on Baltimore. Meetings are held in York, and there are numerous members that come north from Maryland to attend these meetings. The only feasible chapter possibility I would foresee would be one between Baltimore and Washington. By bringing Washington into the mix, you might be able to generate more interest, plus you may draw PRR fans from Virginia. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com --0-2092287824-1034093306=:52198 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Thanks to Mr. Britton's advice below, let me rephrase my proposal. Would anyone be interested in starting a local Baltimore/Washington chapter of the PRRT&HS?

Randy Harrison

 Jerry Britton wrote:

On 10/8/02 11:25 AM, Randolph Harrison (hbcrandy@yahoo.com) wrote:

> Is their a Baltimore, Maryland local chapter of the PRRT&HS? If not, is anyone
> interested in starting one?
>
There's not, and there "may" not be enough interest.

There is a Northern Central Chapter, named after the Northern Central
Branch, which ran from Baltimore, through York and Harrisburg and
Williamsport, eventually to Sodus Point NY. The chapter, however,
concentrates on the line between Baltimore and Harrisburg, with a good bit
of discussion on Baltimore. Meetings are held in York, and there are
numerous members that come north from Maryland to attend these meetings.

The only feasible chapter possibility I would foresee would be one between
Baltimore and Washington. By bringing Washington into the mix, you might be
able to generate more interest, plus you may Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more
faith.yahoo.com --0-2092287824-1034093306=:52198-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 12:18:08 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Baltimore/Washington Chapter of PRRT&HS?? From: Jerry Britton On 10/8/02 12:08 PM, Randolph Harrison (hbcrandy@yahoo.com) wrote: > > The only feasible chapter possibility I would foresee would be one between > Baltimore and Washington. By bringing Washington into the mix, you might be > able to generate more interest, plus you may Faith Hill > - Exclusive Performances, Videos, more > faith.yahoo.com Mr. Harrison's last post included a quote attributed to me. It was from me, but somehow the Faith Hill stuff was added. That did not originate from me and must have been added by Mr. Harrison inadvertently. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 09:20:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Randolph Harrison Subject: Re: [PRR] Baltimore/Washington Chapter of PRRT&HS?? --0-1919310721-1034094044=:8178 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii My apologies to Mr. Britton as to the misquote. I also have no idea who or what Faith Hill is. Randy Harrison Jerry Britton wrote:On 10/8/02 12:08 PM, Randolph Harrison (hbcrandy@yahoo.com) wrote: > > The only feasible chapter possibility I would foresee would be one between > Baltimore and Washington. By bringing Washington into the mix, you might be > able to generate more interest, plus you may Faith Hill > - Exclusive Performances, Videos, more > faith.yahoo.com Mr. Harrison's last post included a quote attributed to me. It was from me, but somehow the Faith Hill stuff was added. That did not originate from me and must have been added by Mr. Harrison inadvertently. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com --0-1919310721-1034094044=:8178 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

My apologies to Mr. Britton as to the misquote. I also have no idea who or what Faith Hill is.

Randy Harrison

 Jerry Britton wrote:

On 10/8/02 12:08 PM, Randolph Harrison (hbcrandy@yahoo.com) wrote:

>
> The only feasible chapter possibility I would foresee would be one between
> Baltimore and Washington. By bringing Washington into the mix, you might be
> able to generate more interest, plus you may Faith Hill
> - Exclusive Performances, Videos, more
> faith.yahoo.com

Mr. Harrison's last post included a quote attributed to me. It was from me,
but somehow the Faith Hill stuff was added. That did not originate from me
and must have been added by Mr. Harrison inadvertently.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model rail Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more
faith.yahoo.com --0-1919310721-1034094044=:8178-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 12:24:50 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Baltimore/Washington Chapter of PRRT&HS?? From: Jerry Britton On 10/8/02 12:20 PM, Randolph Harrison (hbcrandy@yahoo.com) wrote: > My apologies to Mr. Britton as to the misquote. I also have no idea who or > what Faith Hill is. > While it was misquoted as being from me, she is a megababe country singer. I don't listen to country, but I know who Faith Hill and Shania Twain are. Yowser! ;-) Apology accepted but unnecessary. Just wanted to keep the record straight! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 13:14:53 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: Paint removal Query Listers, The BEST thing I ever used was called Chameleon. It is (was) made by a small group in Northeast, Maryland. It is still available through Mainline Hobby Supplies at Blue Ridge Summit, Pa. It has never caused any plastic damage on any locos I have stripped. The only locomotives I ever had a problem with were when I used brake fluid on an early Stewart F3's The fluid removed a chemical in the plastic and the shells "spider-cracked" Steve saw this and had the formula changed for the plastic, so I was told. I have never had any other problems and I have painted Roco, Atlas, Athearn, Model Power, Walthers, and many others. Chameleon can be reused many times. All that is needed is that the liquid needs to "settle" and the clean liquid can be poured into another container. I also recommend running it through a strainer to remove particles. Regards, Nick Kulp http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] More on PRR tunnels Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 11:13:25 -0500 The portal of the tunnel in Cincinnati is still visible from the interstate which skirts the city on the east. A model of the portal is reputed to be the one that was manufactured in HO scale by Alexander Scale Models in the 1950-1970 era. -----Original Message----- From: Dan Cupper [mailto:cupper@att.net] Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 2:43 PM To: LAMAassoc@aol.com Cc: mahlkov@gtcom.net; asmiller@mitre.org; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] More on PRR tunnels Greetings to Jerry, Marty and the List: PRR referred to tunnels as either Natural or Artificial, and apparently the distinction wasn't always related to the difference in construction technique (cut-and-cover versus boring through rock). For example, PRR considered all six of its PT&T tunnels at Weehawken/Penn Station/Sunnyside Yard to be artificial (yet those weren't cut-and-cover), as well as all eleven of those related to the Suburban Station/30th Street/Zoo complex (most if not all of which *were* cut-and-cover). Besides the tunnels that have been noted in posts already, the following existed on Lines East. (On Lines West, most have already been mentioned here by others except for one or two on PRR's approach to Cincinnati and the three--one of them still active--that were on PRR's approach to Wheeling, W.Va.) Phila Div. Gallagherville Enola (3-these would be the artificial ones that Jerry mentioned) Schuylkill Div. Phoenixville Middle Div. East Altoona (artificial) Cresson Div. Carrolltown Pittsburgh Div. New Portage Lindencross Conemaugh Div. Bow Salina Leechburg Allegheny Div. Wood Hill Long Point Climax Brookville Summit Caledonia Williamsport Div. Paddy Mountain Beaver Dam (These two were on the ex-Lewisburg & Tyrone branch and one or both is/are still open as a rail-trail.) Sunbury St. Clair Baltimore Fulton St. Winans Marysville Also, considering those subsidiary roads that were closely held, there were/are at least two on the Monongahela Railway (one built in the late 1960s) and one on the Western Allegheny RR. Hope this helps, Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: FW: [PRR] Chicago Chapter PRRT&HS Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 15:33:58 -0500 Gents; Is the Chi Chapter up & running yet as a Chapter?? I live in Ohio so a Lines West Chapter would be a good thing to belong to..... Earl Myers ----- Earl & list, Norm could answer this better than I. But, here is the short answer. We have to finish our paperwork to become a Chapter. The one big problem at the meeting was that there were too many good names for the Chapter. In my mind we have a Chapter started, with the paperwork in process but not finished. Norm feel free to correct any errors. Pete Reinhold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 17:22:38 -0400 From: Mike Calo Subject: Re: [PRR] Baltimore/Washington Chapter of PRRT&HS?? I would be very interested in a Baltimore/Washington chapter of PRRT&HS; I did most of my train watching along the PRR/AMTRAK lines in Baltimore, Washington and points between (most notably Odenton). Mike Calo Annapolis MD Randolph Harrison wrote: > Thanks to Mr. Britton's advice below, let me rephrase my proposal. > Would anyone be interested in starting a local Baltimore/Washington > chapter of the PRRT&HS? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: [PRR] PRRTHS Chapters Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 18:20:11 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AC_01C26EF7.56EF5C60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Now that Chicago is at least started. How about Dallas? Are there = enough interested in starting a Dallas TX chapter for the PRRTHS? And = who can spearhead it? I will help, but am totally ignorant of = procedure. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF Member of Trinity Valley Railroad Historical Association Inactive member of Illinois Tech Model Railroaders ------=_NextPart_000_00AC_01C26EF7.56EF5C60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Now that Chicago is at least = started. =20 How about Dallas?  Are there enough interested in starting a Dallas = TX=20 chapter for the PRRTHS?  And who can spearhead it?  I will = help, but=20 am totally ignorant of procedure.
 
Morgan = Bilbo
Ferroequinologist
PRRTHS=20 #1204 and SPF
Member of Trinity Valley Railroad Historical=20 Association
Inactive member of Illinois Tech Model=20 Railroaders
------=_NextPart_000_00AC_01C26EF7.56EF5C60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 20:40:30 -0400 Subject: [PRR] ER Models Sharks in N Scale From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" The second run of ER Models N scale Baldwin RF16 Sharks are out. These are the Pennsy five stripers. There are four AB sets available. Two observations: 1) The paint is sharp and crisp. Unlike the first run (single stripe), the yellow is a much better rendition. Last year's run was too yellow. 2) The mechanism is the same as last year, which is a good thing. An otherwise reputable dealer from Baltimore was telling people this run switched to a much cheaper Bachmann mechanism. It is, in fact, the same mechanism as before. I popped the hood and checked! It continues to take the same Digitrax plug-n-play decoder as well. I have two sets of single stripers from last year, and I picked up two sets of the five stripers this go round. The additional two sets are tempting, but EMD F3's are around the corner from InterMountain and I don't want to get too Baldwin heavy! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 00:28:00 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/08/02 --part1_a4.2d88c094.2ad50a50_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/8/02 12:02:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > PRR-Talk Digest - Tuesday, October 8, 2002 I'm just curious why such a bid chunk of this digest came to me in blue and underlined. Was readable but distracting -- probably not quite as bad as a posting that's all in caps. BTW, after years of detesting the "HTML echo", I find I'm stuck with it in AOL 7.0. Anyone know if this is a "feature" of the new 8.0 as well? I'd love to turn it off, but there's no way if you use flash sessions ("Automatic AOL") to keep your phone line open. Someday I'd like some AOL employee to explain to me how locking me into an HTML regurgitation of every word I write is in my best interest. Eagerly awaiting DSL in my neighborhood... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_a4.2d88c094.2ad50a50_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/8/02 12:02:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


PRR-Talk Digest - Tuesday, October 8, 2002


I'm just curious why such a bid chunk of this digest came to me in blue and underlined.  Was readable but distracting -- probably not quite as bad as a posting that's all in caps.

BTW, after years of detesting the "HTML echo", I find I'm stuck with it in AOL 7.0.  Anyone know if this is a "feature" of the new 8.0 as well?  I'd love to turn it off, but there's no way if you use flash sessions ("Automatic AOL") to keep your phone line open.  Someday I'd like some AOL employee to explain to me how locking me into an HTML regurgitation of every word I write is in my best interest.

Eagerly awaiting DSL in my neighborhood...


Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_a4.2d88c094.2ad50a50_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 23:41:54 -0700 From: Peter Weiglin Subject: [PRR] Faith Hill Wasn't Faith Hill the stiff grade north of Sunbury, so named because with an H6sb on the point, a great deal of engine crew prayer accompanied the efforts to surmount the grade?? Or was there more than one Faith Hill?? Peter Weiglin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Pennsyman50@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 13:54:23 EDT Subject: [PRR] Chapters --part1_113.18dd5de5.2ad5c74f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What about the Buffalo area? Jon Anderson pennsyman50@aol.com --part1_113.18dd5de5.2ad5c74f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What about the Buffalo area?


Jon Anderson
pennsyman50@aol.com --part1_113.18dd5de5.2ad5c74f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 14:02:58 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Chicago Chapter Web Site From: Jerry Britton There is now, or at least the beginnings of, an official web site for the Chicago Chapter of the PRRT&HS. The chapter is, I believe, pending approval by the BoD. The URL is http://prrths-chic.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 15:39:27 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/09/02 >Marvin wrote: > >The portal of the tunnel in Cincinnati is still visible from the interstate >which skirts the city on the east. Marvin, Can you point out the location more precisely? I assume you mean this is visible from I 275, but about where? I'll be in the Cinci area in the next several months and would like to see this. Thanks, Tom Hayden ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Chicago Chapter Web Site Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 15:44:23 -0400 Congrats to the Windy City on forming a chapter. Hopefully, They are getting oral histories of all these ex-PRR workers. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Chicago chapter PRRT&HS Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 20:07:18 +0000 We now have 21 people on our e mail list and I know I have five or six more to add. What a start! Thanks to all with an interest. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Viv Brice" Subject: [PRR] Paint Removal Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 18:44:27 +1000 Somebody mentioned a good caustic solution as a good way to remove paint from plastic models. Try spray on oven cleaner - works a treat for me - but make sure that your ventilation is good Regards, Viv Brice An SPF from 'Down Under' ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 08:02:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Benjamin Sullivan Subject: Re: [PRR] Baltimore/Washington Chapter of PRRT&HS?? I would be interested in a Baltimore/Washington chapter. Ben Sullivan Rockville, MD ===== ____________________________________________________________ Ride the East Broad Top RR! http://www.spikesys.com/EBT Rockhill Furnace, PA __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 11:04:02 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] New Chapters for PRRT&HS Gents, I'm very pleased that so much interest has been generated in forming local chapters of the PRRT&HS. Anyone interested in starting a chapter should write Vice President Fred Shaefer c/o PRRT&HS, PO Box 712, Altoona, PA 16603-0712 and request a copy of the Society's and Chapter's By-Laws. For all intents and purposes ten of the people sponsoring a newly forming Chapter need to have been Society members for at least two years and a minimum of ten chapter members shall be society members in good standing thereafter. For those of you that are not currently subscribed to the Society's monthly electronic newsletter "e-NEWS," you may subscribe by sending a blank message addressed to PRRTHSe-NEWS-subscribe@yahoogroups.com. The newsletter is normally sent out on the third Friday of each month, however, the October edition will be sent the coming Friday, 11 October. BTW the recipients of the 2003 Society awards and the new directors standing for election, among other things, will be announced in this Friday's edition. Al Buchan PRRT&HS Director Editor "e-NEWS" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 21:25:57 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Open Houses From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" Every year a large group of layout operators in Delaware, eastern Pennsylvania, southern New Jersey, and eastern Maryland open their doors for holiday open houses. Once again, Ken McCorry has supplied me with the schedule. This year there are a whopping 91 layouts on the tour! The layouts that I know to be of good PRR content are posted on the Timetable page of Keystone Crossings (http://kc.pennsyrr.com/timetable.ws4d). I've already entered some "must see" layouts, including Ken McCorry's, Charlie Grant's, Charlie & Chris Carangi's, and Paul Backentose's. I will be adding Bob Jans and Bill Kachel shortly. I've also added Bill Gruber's (Reading) and Rick Spano's (huge N scale) layouts due to their excellence outside of the PRR theme. If I learn that more of these are PRR or have other "must see" characteristics, I will add them as well. Again, if your layout will be open, please contact me off-list. Enjoy! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don E. Anderson, Jr." Subject: [PRR] Tubular Train Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:45:38 -0400 To List Members: I've seen several references to a Budd Tubular train (PRR Keystone?) but don't have much beyond the fact that it existed. There are some drawings in the Keystone Crossing's database. Is this the same thing as the ill-fated Aero train? something similar but different? If anyone can point me to some decent books and/or other documentation that would be great. If you can point to an online site even better (out of work with limited funds). Thank you. Don --------------------------------------- Don E. Anderson, Jr. Mailto:andersond@bellsouth.net --------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:03:54 +0000 The tubular train was not the Aerotrain. It was an early attempt to speed up the corridor trains by lowering the center of gravity. It was fluted stainless steel and the cars were lower than standard cars because the passengers sat in a section much like a sunken living room in the center of the cars. It also had HEP (or the equivalent for the time) and had a power car at the head end. A picture of it appeared in Bill Volkmers book. It was not liked by the pasengers becasue of all the high level platforms on the corridor as I understand it. It was sold to either the GTW or the regional commuter district for Detroit and neverput into service. Several cars wound up on a dinner train on the Kalamazoo and Lake Shore RR based out of the Paw Paw Michigan area. I think they have since been resold again. > To List Members: > > I've seen several references to a Budd Tubular train (PRR Keystone?) but > don't have much beyond the fact that it existed. There are some drawings in > the Keystone Crossing's database. Is this the same thing as the ill-fated > Aero train? something similar but different? If anyone can point me to some > decent books and/or other documentation that would be great. If you can > point to an online site even better (out of work with limited funds). > > Thank you. > > Don > > --------------------------------------- > Don E. Anderson, Jr. > Mailto:andersond@bellsouth.net > --------------------------------------- > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:20:03 -0500 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] A little off-topic Hi, everyone, I need some help finding a lubrication product that someone I met recalled to me a few weeks ago. He described it as a relatively new lube or grease that he had seen demonstrated at (I think) an NMRA national. I think is was Arrow lube or something like this but I can't find anything from my net searches. Can anyone help? TIA, George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:28:39 -0500 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] MDC loco swap Hi, everyone, If any of you have the MDC 2-8-0 for the PRR (the larger 2-8-0 with the Belpaire boiler), either in kit form or built, would you be interested in a sale or a trade for an undec MDC 2-8-0 old timer? If so, please contact me off list. George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:36:18 -0500 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] Equip Diagrams for 1920 Hello, everyone, FYI - Although some of you may already know this, I was pleasantly surprised when I recently re-visited Rob's PRR website (www.prr.railfan.net) to find that he has added quite a few equipment diagrams for early PRR equipment, including many all-wood cars. Given my zeal for the PRR of the WW I era, this was especially exciting. A number of the wooden headend cars built into the late 1890's were still in mainline service around WW I and the data provided in thse diagrams is invaluable. The passenger car diagram list indicates that many of the pre-steel car era cars will soon be added. Some of these will be a challenge to model but they show a whole other PRR that was just as impressive as the one most of us know from the transition era. Kudo's to Rob and to the preservers of PRR data (esp. Bob Johnson) for making this great material available. George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:51:45 -0400 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train Don, Sounds like you're thinking of the Keystone Train, designed to operate behind GG1's on the NY-Washington haul. I don't have any info handy, but it seems this train was built by Budd and consisted mainly of coachs, a snack service car and a power car that provided for the trains electricity needs. (Seems like the train used electricity for heating and cooling rather than steam, so needed the power car for operation). It was built in the mid 1950's, if I recall, and far outlived the self-propelled lightweeight trains such as the Areotrain, etc.The cars had an unusual layout, with normal height vestibules, but sunken areas for seating between the trucks.They entered service as the Morning and Evening Keystones, making two round trips a day. I recall riding this train a number of times in the early to mid 1960's, and it used to make up the midnight train from New York to Philley, at least on saturdays, in 1965, the last time I rode it. It was a bit of a startling effect to sit down and realize the bottom of the your window was about level with the high level platforms. (Particularly when you recall that this was the era of the mini-skirt!). If they ever ran anywhere besides the NY-Washington line I'm not aware of it, though nothing would have stopped them from running out to Harrisburg that I'm aware of. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:10:06 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] A little off-topic George: My best guess is you are talking about Aero lubricants. They are made by a company called "aero-car". Among other places, they are carried by Loy's Toys and the product line can be found at: http://www.loystoys.com/ndx-aero-car.html Please note that other sources carry this product also and this is just the first one I could think of that carries it... Jeff Warner gpierson@trnty.edu wrote: >Hi, everyone, > >I need some help finding a lubrication product that someone I met recalled to >me a few weeks ago. He described it as a relatively new lube or grease that >he had seen demonstrated at (I think) an NMRA national. I think is was Arrow >lube or something like this but I can't find anything from my net searches. >Can anyone help? > >TIA, > >George Pierson > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:14:57 -0300 From: A Samostie Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train Dear Don and Group, Correct, as ndbprr stated, the Aerotrain was a different "experiment." I believe the PRR Keystone cars were similar in concept to the original Spanish Talgo trains of the 1950s. I'm not sure if the Keystone cars bore any cosmetic resemblance to the ACF / Talgo trains that operated on the Boston & Maine and New Haven, though. So, just what is a "tubular" train? Well, it's not just a tubular carbody shape like Amfleet or Metroliner cars. In the case of the Talgos, the cars lacked bulkhead ends, doors or partitions between the cars. The short cars were simply connected by diaphragms that extended the full height and width of the carbody. The effect was something like a long caterpillar: passengers had a continuous view through the coaches ahead. I'm assuming that the Keystone cars were similar. Perhaps someone on the list who is more familiar with the Keystone could confirm whether the cars had full height / width diaphragms or conventional doors between the cars. (In case anyone is interested, the modern Talgo cars now in operation throughout Spain and in Amtrak Cascades service do have bulkhead ends, but they retain the short car length and low roofline of their predecessors). On the PRR, the Keystone cars on the corridor were hauled by GG1s. There is a photo of a Keystone train in Karl Zimmerman's book, "The Remarkable GG1." Unfortunately, the photo is an approach shot, and doesn't give a good sense of what the cars really looked like, other than that they were low-slung, and were truly dwarfed by the GG1. I'm not sure if there were ride quality problems with the Keystone cars, but there were on the Aerotrain. The lightweight GM intercity bus shells that were used as the basis for Aerotrain coaches gave a poor ride, with single axles beneath each car end. The Aerotrains ended their days in Chicago commuter service on the Rock Island. An Aerotrain locomotive and several coaches can be seen at the National Railroad Museum in Green Bay, Wisconsin. Now... does anyone know why plastic HO scale horn-hook couplers are referred to as "Talgo" couplers? Cheers, Alan Samostie ELHS #3178 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:37:14 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train The tubular equipment was certainly low-slung. I recall riding DC- NY as a young nipper; at a high-level platform, your eye looked straight at the edge of the platform, as I recall! This was maybe 1956 or so. To help date it, there were still trolleys on the streets in Washington. Of course, at the time, I had no inkling that riding those cars would be a once-in-a-lifetime experience. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:51:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Randolph Harrison Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train --0-1057161250-1034265089=:78124 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I also remeber riding from Baltimore to New York during the same time frame in a low-slung coach. I also was quite young. I was with my grandfather who was a former PRR conductor. The coach that I remeber in which you rode nose-level with high platformed stations, my grandfather referred to as "stepdown coaches." The smoking lounges were at each end of the car above the trucks. several steps lead you down to the rest of the seats which were suspended between the two sets of trucks. They were like riding in the bottom level of the new, two-level MARC commuter coaches. They were supposedly a new idea at the time. I do not remember them as being tubular. Randy Harrison bobsin@nac.net wrote:The tubular equipment was certainly low-slung. I recall riding DC- NY as a young nipper; at a high-level platform, your eye looked straight at the edge of the platform, as I recall! This was maybe 1956 or so. To help date it, there were still trolleys on the streets in Washington. Of course, at the time, I had no inkling that riding those cars would be a once-in-a-lifetime experience. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com --0-1057161250-1034265089=:78124 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

I also remeber riding from Baltimore to New York during the same time frame in a low-slung coach. I also was quite young. I was with my grandfather who was a former PRR conductor. The coach that I remeber in which you rode nose-level with high platformed stations, my grandfather referred to as "stepdown coaches." The smoking lounges were at each end of the car above the trucks. several steps lead you down to the rest of the seats which were suspended between the two sets of trucks. They were like riding in the bottom level of the new, two-level MARC commuter coaches. They were supposedly  a new idea at the time. I do not remember them as being tubular.

Randy Harrison

 bobsin@nac.net wrote:

The tubular equipment was certainly low-slung. I recall riding DC-
NY as a young nipper; at a high-level platform, your eye looked
straight at the edge of the platform, as I recall! This was maybe
1956 or so. To help date it, there were still trolleys on the streets
in Washington. Of course, at the time, I had no inkling that riding
those cars would be a once-in-a-lifetime experience.

John Bobsin

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Do you Yahoo!?
Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more
faith.yahoo.com --0-1057161250-1034265089=:78124-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RBurg74133@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:10:39 EDT Subject: [PRR] Tubular Train Reference --part1_110.19dbb5eb.2ad7007f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI The Passenger Car Library Volume 4 has pictures (inside and out) and plans for this train. I rode this train in the mid 60's Wash to Phila, still remember the strange sensation at high level platforms. Ray Burghart SPF for over 50 years --part1_110.19dbb5eb.2ad7007f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI
The Passenger Car Library Volume 4 has pictures (inside and out) and plans for this train. I rode this train in the mid 60's Wash to Phila, still remember the strange sensation at high level platforms.

Ray Burghart
SPF for over 50 years --part1_110.19dbb5eb.2ad7007f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:02:10 -0400 From: bisbeelaw@cs.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train In 1982 or 1983, I saw the tubular train (the "Keystone") in storage on the premises of Selfridge Air National Guard Base outside of Detroit in Michigan. I don't know what may have happened to the equipment afterwards. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon Greiger" Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:37:44 -0400 At least 2 of the Keystone Tubular train cars are in Dinner Train Service in Walled Lake, Michigan, on Coe Rail. (not Conrail) I believe the power car is on the property, but I'm not sure. The shape of the cars are distinctive and not likely to be confused with anything else. I was told, but could not verify, that as old as they were they were generally electrically compatable with the early Amfleet coaches. The interiors were vandelized in the '80's when the all of the cars were stored at the CN former Grant Truck RR yard in Pontiac, MI., right next to a public road. (Nice play!!) I have slides or photos somewhere if anyone is interested. Maybe I could post them somehow. (I can scan them in the.jpg format.) Julian Wolfe, when he was head of SEMTA, (SouthEastern Michigan Transportation Authority) Rail Operations, purchased the train to ultimately be rebuild for rail commuter operations from Detroit to Pontiac, MI. The service never expanded beyond three round trips and was ultimately discontinued. I can't recall the year. All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Randolph Harrison" ; ; Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 1:02 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train > In 1982 or 1983, I saw the tubular train (the "Keystone") in storage on the premises of Selfridge Air National Guard Base outside of Detroit in Michigan. I don't know what may have happened to the equipment afterwards. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Kesytone (train not the magazine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:46:05 +0000 I just remembered one other thing about the Keystone. It had raised bolted on red letters about one foot high on the sides that said Pennsylvania over the center of the cars. This was a departure from painted on lettering on most PRR passenger equipment. Wasn't a model of it offered by Railworks a couple of years ago in HO? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train From: Matthew J Brown Date: 09 Oct 2002 22:49:34 -0700 There's one picture of the Keystone 'Tubular Train' in Don Wood's 'I Remember Pennsy', page 20. -Matthew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Tubular Train Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:20:00 -0400 When I was Gang Foreman at 30th St. Penn Coach Yard in 1962 we had the tubular train based there for maintenance. It had a power car 9606 with a Hercules Diesel. The train went north to New York at 7 AM, south to Washington, north the New York, south to Washington, North to New York and returned to Philadelphia around 11 PM as I recall. In the early days, ( I believe it was built in 1954 or 55) it did not have steam train lines to allow non-tubular cars to be attached. The power car provided electric heat and light. Shortly after it entered service it became necessary to tack Southern train equipment on the rear at Washington so they had to add steam connectors and through piping along the center sills. One day per month, the train had to be taken out of service for servicing of the power car. There was one thing unique about the train other than the electric heat and the tubular design. That was the fact that it was the ONLY passenger equipment on the entire railroad equipped with disc brakes. The troops did not like this because the only way one could access the brakes for repairs was to put the train over a pit. There were only 3 pits in the entire corridor. Every two years, the train had to be put over the pit in Phillie and all the brake cylinders removed and taken in the shop for overhaul and then put back onto the train. This took the train out of service for at least a week. Them were the days. Bill Volkmer -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Weldon Greiger Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 1:38 PM To: bisbeelaw@cs.com; Randolph Harrison; bobsin@nac.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train At least 2 of the Keystone Tubular train cars are in Dinner Train Service in Walled Lake, Michigan, on Coe Rail. (not Conrail) I believe the power car is on the property, but I'm not sure. The shape of the cars are distinctive and not likely to be confused with anything else. I was told, but could not verify, that as old as they were they were generally electrically compatable with the early Amfleet coaches. The interiors were vandelized in the '80's when the all of the cars were stored at the CN former Grant Truck RR yard in Pontiac, MI., right next to a public road. (Nice play!!) I have slides or photos somewhere if anyone is interested. Maybe I could post them somehow. (I can scan them in the.jpg format.) Julian Wolfe, when he was head of SEMTA, (SouthEastern Michigan Transportation Authority) Rail Operations, purchased the train to ultimately be rebuild for rail commuter operations from Detroit to Pontiac, MI. The service never expanded beyond three round trips and was ultimately discontinued. I can't recall the year. All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Randolph Harrison" ; ; Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 1:02 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train > In 1982 or 1983, I saw the tubular train (the "Keystone") in storage on the premises of Selfridge Air National Guard Base outside of Detroit in Michigan. I don't know what may have happened to the equipment afterwards. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:22:09 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train I had always heard that the reason for the HEP was that the dropped floor design of the cars left no room under the car for generators and batteries. So where was the AC equipment? Assuming it was electromechanical AC driven off the HEP. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== > When I was Gang Foreman at 30th St. Penn Coach Yard in 1962 we had the > tubular train based there for maintenance. It had a power car 9606 with > a Hercules Diesel. The train went north to New York at 7 AM, south to > Washington, north the New York, south to Washington, North to New York > and returned to Philadelphia around 11 PM as I recall. > > In the early days, ( I believe it was built in 1954 or 55) it did not > have steam train lines to allow non-tubular cars to be attached. The > power car provided electric heat and light. Shortly after it entered > service it became necessary to tack Southern train equipment on the rear > at Washington so they had to add steam connectors and through piping > along the center sills. > > One day per month, the train had to be taken out of service for > servicing of the power car. > > There was one thing unique about the train other than the electric heat > and the tubular design. That was the fact that it was the ONLY > passenger equipment on the entire railroad equipped with disc brakes. > The troops did not like this because the only way one could access the > brakes for repairs was to put the train over a pit. There were only 3 > pits in the entire corridor. > > Every two years, the train had to be put over the pit in Phillie and all > the brake cylinders removed and taken in the shop for overhaul and then > put back onto the train. This took the train out of service for at > least a week. > > Them were the days. > > Bill Volkmer > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Weldon > Greiger > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 1:38 PM > To: bisbeelaw@cs.com; Randolph Harrison; bobsin@nac.net; > PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train > > At least 2 of the Keystone Tubular train cars are in Dinner Train > Service in > Walled Lake, Michigan, on Coe Rail. (not Conrail) I believe the power > car > is on the property, but I'm not sure. The shape of the cars are > distinctive > and not likely to be confused with anything else. I was told, but could > not > verify, that as old as they were they were generally electrically > compatable > with the early Amfleet coaches. > > The interiors were vandelized in the '80's when the all of the cars were > stored at the CN former Grant Truck RR yard in Pontiac, MI., right next > to a > public road. (Nice play!!) I have slides or photos somewhere if anyone > is > interested. Maybe I could post them somehow. (I can scan them in > the.jpg > format.) > > Julian Wolfe, when he was head of SEMTA, (SouthEastern Michigan > Transportation Authority) Rail Operations, purchased the train to > ultimately > be rebuild for rail commuter operations from Detroit to Pontiac, MI. > The > service never expanded beyond three round trips and was ultimately > discontinued. I can't recall the year. > > All the best to you and yours Weldon > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Randolph Harrison" ; ; > > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 1:02 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train > > > In 1982 or 1983, I saw the tubular train (the "Keystone") in storage > on > the premises of Selfridge Air National Guard Base outside of Detroit in > Michigan. I don't know what may have happened to the equipment > afterwards. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Tubular Train Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:38:06 -0400 You are taxing my memory from 40 years ago! If I remember correctly it was in the ceiling at the non-vestibule end of the car. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Andrew S. Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 3:22 PM To: Bill Volkmer Cc: 'Weldon Greiger'; bisbeelaw@cs.com; 'Randolph Harrison'; bobsin@nac.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train I had always heard that the reason for the HEP was that the dropped floor design of the cars left no room under the car for generators and batteries. So where was the AC equipment? Assuming it was electromechanical AC driven off the HEP. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== > When I was Gang Foreman at 30th St. Penn Coach Yard in 1962 we had the > tubular train based there for maintenance. It had a power car 9606 with > a Hercules Diesel. The train went north to New York at 7 AM, south to > Washington, north the New York, south to Washington, North to New York > and returned to Philadelphia around 11 PM as I recall. > > In the early days, ( I believe it was built in 1954 or 55) it did not > have steam train lines to allow non-tubular cars to be attached. The > power car provided electric heat and light. Shortly after it entered > service it became necessary to tack Southern train equipment on the rear > at Washington so they had to add steam connectors and through piping > along the center sills. > > One day per month, the train had to be taken out of service for > servicing of the power car. > > There was one thing unique about the train other than the electric heat > and the tubular design. That was the fact that it was the ONLY > passenger equipment on the entire railroad equipped with disc brakes. > The troops did not like this because the only way one could access the > brakes for repairs was to put the train over a pit. There were only 3 > pits in the entire corridor. > > Every two years, the train had to be put over the pit in Phillie and all > the brake cylinders removed and taken in the shop for overhaul and then > put back onto the train. This took the train out of service for at > least a week. > > Them were the days. > > Bill Volkmer > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Weldon > Greiger > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 1:38 PM > To: bisbeelaw@cs.com; Randolph Harrison; bobsin@nac.net; > PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train > > At least 2 of the Keystone Tubular train cars are in Dinner Train > Service in > Walled Lake, Michigan, on Coe Rail. (not Conrail) I believe the power > car > is on the property, but I'm not sure. The shape of the cars are > distinctive > and not likely to be confused with anything else. I was told, but could > not > verify, that as old as they were they were generally electrically > compatable > with the early Amfleet coaches. > > The interiors were vandelized in the '80's when the all of the cars were > stored at the CN former Grant Truck RR yard in Pontiac, MI., right next > to a > public road. (Nice play!!) I have slides or photos somewhere if anyone > is > interested. Maybe I could post them somehow. (I can scan them in > the.jpg > format.) > > Julian Wolfe, when he was head of SEMTA, (SouthEastern Michigan > Transportation Authority) Rail Operations, purchased the train to > ultimately > be rebuild for rail commuter operations from Detroit to Pontiac, MI. > The > service never expanded beyond three round trips and was ultimately > discontinued. I can't recall the year. > > All the best to you and yours Weldon > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Randolph Harrison" ; ; > > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 1:02 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train > > > In 1982 or 1983, I saw the tubular train (the "Keystone") in storage > on > the premises of Selfridge Air National Guard Base outside of Detroit in > Michigan. I don't know what may have happened to the equipment > afterwards. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Tubular Train Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:00:02 -0400 I have diagrams of the cars on my site... See: #9600 Class HP53 Head end power car (class HP53) http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=hp53.gif #9601-9602 Class P85k (with dining section) http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p85k_2.gif #9603-9607 Class P85k (with smoking lounge) http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p85k.gif The AC question is answered by the floorplans. It was in a closet at one end of the car next to the womens bathroom! I wonder why all the cars were classed P85k when some had a lounge while some had a dining section? Seems like they should have had different classes. Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Andrew S. > Miller > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 3:22 PM > To: Bill Volkmer > Cc: 'Weldon Greiger'; bisbeelaw@cs.com; 'Randolph Harrison'; > bobsin@nac.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train > > > I had always heard that the reason for the HEP was that the dropped floor > design of the cars left no room under the car for generators and > batteries. > So where was the AC equipment? Assuming it was electromechanical > AC driven > off the HEP. > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > > > When I was Gang Foreman at 30th St. Penn Coach Yard in 1962 we had the > > tubular train based there for maintenance. It had a power car 9606 with > > a Hercules Diesel. The train went north to New York at 7 AM, south to > > Washington, north the New York, south to Washington, North to New York > > and returned to Philadelphia around 11 PM as I recall. > > > > In the early days, ( I believe it was built in 1954 or 55) it did not > > have steam train lines to allow non-tubular cars to be attached. The > > power car provided electric heat and light. Shortly after it entered > > service it became necessary to tack Southern train equipment on the rear > > at Washington so they had to add steam connectors and through piping > > along the center sills. > > > > One day per month, the train had to be taken out of service for > > servicing of the power car. > > > > There was one thing unique about the train other than the electric heat > > and the tubular design. That was the fact that it was the ONLY > > passenger equipment on the entire railroad equipped with disc brakes. > > The troops did not like this because the only way one could access the > > brakes for repairs was to put the train over a pit. There were only 3 > > pits in the entire corridor. > > > > Every two years, the train had to be put over the pit in Phillie and all > > the brake cylinders removed and taken in the shop for overhaul and then > > put back onto the train. This took the train out of service for at > > least a week. > > > > Them were the days. > > > > Bill Volkmer > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Weldon > > Greiger > > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 1:38 PM > > To: bisbeelaw@cs.com; Randolph Harrison; bobsin@nac.net; > > PRR-Talk@dsop.com > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train > > > > At least 2 of the Keystone Tubular train cars are in Dinner Train > > Service in > > Walled Lake, Michigan, on Coe Rail. (not Conrail) I believe the power > > car > > is on the property, but I'm not sure. The shape of the cars are > > distinctive > > and not likely to be confused with anything else. I was told, but could > > not > > verify, that as old as they were they were generally electrically > > compatable > > with the early Amfleet coaches. > > > > The interiors were vandelized in the '80's when the all of the cars were > > stored at the CN former Grant Truck RR yard in Pontiac, MI., right next > > to a > > public road. (Nice play!!) I have slides or photos somewhere if anyone > > is > > interested. Maybe I could post them somehow. (I can scan them in > > the.jpg > > format.) > > > > Julian Wolfe, when he was head of SEMTA, (SouthEastern Michigan > > Transportation Authority) Rail Operations, purchased the train to > > ultimately > > be rebuild for rail commuter operations from Detroit to Pontiac, MI. > > The > > service never expanded beyond three round trips and was ultimately > > discontinued. I can't recall the year. > > > > All the best to you and yours Weldon > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: "Randolph Harrison" ; ; > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 1:02 PM > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train > > > > > In 1982 or 1983, I saw the tubular train (the "Keystone") in storage > > on > > the premises of Selfridge Air National Guard Base outside of Detroit in > > Michigan. I don't know what may have happened to the equipment > > afterwards. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 18:58:17 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] A little off-topic In a message dated 10/10/02 10:17:16 AM Central Daylight Time, jeffrywarner@suscom.net writes: << My best guess is you are talking about Aero lubricants. They are made by a company called "aero-car". >> The most likely possibility,unless they were discussing Neolube, a suspension of graphite in liquid which leaves behind a conductive dry lubricant (graphite) after the liquid evaporates. Neolube is available from P-B-L at URL: http://www.p-b-l.com/pbl2000/pblnew-NS.html. I use it to blacken drivers and siderods, but am very careful around the insulated axles as it may bridge and cause a short. Bob Zoeller Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:32:01 -0300 From: A Samostie Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train, and on to Metroliners Dear Group, Now, another question. It would seem that the Keystone cars were about 20 years ahead of their time, which is perhaps the answer to my question: Does anyone know why the Keystone design was not duplicated on other roads, or why they were never more widely used on the PRR? It would seem that these cars could have provided a modern, economical solution for short-haul passenger service on many roads. It's just a shame that high-speed, hourly "Keystone Service" on the corridor did not become a reality (until the Metroliners were introduced in 1967-68). Which raises another question I've had... I know the Metroliners were designed for PRR, and many were delivered (and ran in test service) in PRR lettering. But, did any of them enter REVENUE service before the Penn Central merger? Cheers, Alan Samostie ELHS #3178 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 18:16:40 -0700 It was also written up long about that time in the Keystone as being "still around", with a couple of photos of it in storage as mentioned in Ivan's comment. Incidently, I grew up in Detroit, and Selfridge, while in truth located near Detroit, actually is close to Mt. Clemens (not that there is anything even remotely resembling a mountain in Mt. Clemens...) Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:02:10 -0400 bisbeelaw@cs.com wrote: > In 1982 or 1983, I saw the tubular train (the "Keystone") > in storage on the premises of Selfridge Air National > Guard Base outside of Detroit in Michigan. I don't know > what may have happened to the equipment afterwards. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Garry Spear Subject: RE: [PRR] Tubular Train Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:54:30 -0400 WOW, How many miles per day is that. Phila - NY 100 NY - Wash 300 Wash - NY 300 NY - Wash 300 Wash - NY 300 NY - Phila 100 ____ 1400 SWAG miles per day. Does somebody car to redo this with timetable miles. I bet Amtrak would kill to get equipment utilization like this. Garry Spear -----Original Message----- From: Bill Volkmer [SMTP:bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com] Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 2:20 PM To: 'Weldon Greiger'; bisbeelaw@cs.com; 'Randolph Harrison'; bobsin@nac.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Tubular Train When I was Gang Foreman at 30th St. Penn Coach Yard in 1962 we had the tubular train based there for maintenance. It had a power car 9606 with a Hercules Diesel. The train went north to New York at 7 AM, south to Washington, north the New York, south to Washington, North to New York and returned to Philadelphia around 11 PM as I recall. [Garry Spear] >> [Garry Spear] >> Snip >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 22:14:46 -0400 Garry, It's more like 90 miles and 225 miles, but that's still 1080 m.p.d. When the Acela's are running right, Amtrak is doing that or better. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Garry Spear" To: Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 9:54 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Tubular Train > WOW, How many miles per day is that. > > Phila - NY 100 > NY - Wash 300 > Wash - NY 300 > NY - Wash 300 > Wash - NY 300 > NY - Phila 100 > ____ > 1400 SWAG miles per day. > > Does somebody car to redo this with timetable miles. I bet Amtrak would kill to get equipment utilization like this. > > Garry Spear > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Volkmer [SMTP:bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 2:20 PM > To: 'Weldon Greiger'; bisbeelaw@cs.com; 'Randolph Harrison'; bobsin@nac.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: RE: [PRR] Tubular Train > > When I was Gang Foreman at 30th St. Penn Coach Yard in 1962 we had the > tubular train based there for maintenance. It had a power car 9606 with > a Hercules Diesel. The train went north to New York at 7 AM, south to > Washington, north the New York, south to Washington, North to New York > and returned to Philadelphia around 11 PM as I recall. > > [Garry Spear] >> > [Garry Spear] >> Snip > >> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 23:06:36 -0400 From: John Ryan Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train --------------020803010905060000090200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On the timetable I think it was Phil-NY 90 NY-DC 226 DC-NY 226 NY-Phil 90 Total 632 I think you may have an extra NY-DC roundtrip. John Ryan Garry Spear wrote: >WOW, How many miles per day is that. > >Phila - NY 100 >NY - Wash 300 >Wash - NY 300 >NY - Wash 300 >Wash - NY 300 >NY - Phila 100 > ____ > 1400 SWAG miles per day. > >Does somebody car to redo this with timetable miles. I bet Amtrak would kill to get equipment utilization like this. > >Garry Spear > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Bill Volkmer [SMTP:bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com] >Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 2:20 PM >To: 'Weldon Greiger'; bisbeelaw@cs.com; 'Randolph Harrison'; bobsin@nac.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: RE: [PRR] Tubular Train > >When I was Gang Foreman at 30th St. Penn Coach Yard in 1962 we had the >tubular train based there for maintenance. It had a power car 9606 with >a Hercules Diesel. The train went north to New York at 7 AM, south to >Washington, north the New York, south to Washington, North to New York >and returned to Philadelphia around 11 PM as I recall. > >[Garry Spear] >> >[Garry Spear] >> Snip > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > --------------020803010905060000090200 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On the timetable I think it was
Phil-NY 90
NY-DC 226
DC-NY 226
NY-Phil 90

Total 632

I think you may have an extra NY-DC roundtrip.

John Ryan

Garry Spear wrote:
WOW,  How many miles per day is that.

Phila - NY    100
NY - Wash   300
Wash - NY   300
NY - Wash   300
Wash - NY   300
NY - Phila    100
                   ____
                  1400  SWAG miles per day.

Does somebody car to redo this with timetable miles.  I bet Amtrak would kill to get equipment utilization like this.

Garry Spear			

 

-----Original Message-----
From:	Bill Volkmer [SMTP:bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com]
Sent:	Thursday, October 10, 2002 2:20 PM
To:	'Weldon Greiger'; bisbeelaw@cs.com; 'Randolph Harrison'; bobsin@nac.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject:	RE: [PRR] Tubular Train

When I 

was Gang Foreman at 30th St. Penn Coach Yard in 1962 we had the
tubular train based there for maintenance.  It had a power car 9606 with
a Hercules Diesel.  The train went north to New York at 7 AM, south to
Washington, north the New York, south to Washington, North to New York
and returned to Philadelphia around 11 PM as I recall.

[Garry Spear]  >>
[Garry Spear]  >>  Snip


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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--------------020803010905060000090200-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Equip Diagrams for 1920 Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 02:09:53 -0400 George, I uploaded the early passenger cars tonight. (PA - P58) Have fun! The quality on some of them isn't great but they're readable. Also, my website is just prr.railfan.net without the www. at the beginning! In your kudo's list for preservers of these diagrams, in addition to Bob Johnson, Tom Gardner George Elwood and Allen Stanley should also be mentioned for providing many of the other diagrams! Thanks to these guys there are over 1700 diagrams online now covering nearly every type of PRR equipment from the 1800's to the end of the PRR! Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of gpierson@trnty.edu Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 9:36 AM To: PRR list; PRR-talk Subject: [PRR] Equip Diagrams for 1920 Hello, everyone, FYI - Although some of you may already know this, I was pleasantly surprised when I recently re-visited Rob's PRR website (www.prr.railfan.net) to find that he has added quite a few equipment diagrams for early PRR equipment, including many all-wood cars. Given my zeal for the PRR of the WW I era, this was especially exciting. A number of the wooden headend cars built into the late 1890's were still in mainline service around WW I and the data provided in thse diagrams is invaluable. The passenger car diagram list indicates that many of the pre-steel car era cars will soon be added. Some of these will be a challenge to model but they show a whole other PRR that was just as impressive as the one most of us know from the transition era. Kudo's to Rob and to the preservers of PRR data (esp. Bob Johnson) for making this great material available. George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train, and on to Metroliners Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 12:56:24 +0000 I'm not sure the Keystone cars were the panacea for future cars - more of an experiment. If I am correct it required going up and down stairs in each car to transfer from one to another and would definitely not be ADA compliant. With a customer base that was used to convenience ( high level platforms, hourly service, GG1's, etc. )they were probably a step backward. I wouldn't be surprised if Budd ate some of the cost to get them in service to gauge public reaction. > > Dear Group, > > Now, another question. It would seem that the Keystone cars were about > 20 years ahead of their time, which is perhaps the answer to my > question: Does anyone know why the Keystone design was not duplicated > on other roads, or why they were never more widely used on the PRR? > > It would seem that these cars could have provided a modern, economical > solution for short-haul passenger service on many roads. It's just a > shame that high-speed, hourly "Keystone Service" on the corridor did not > become a reality (until the Metroliners were introduced in 1967-68). > > Which raises another question I've had... I know the Metroliners were > designed for PRR, and many were delivered (and ran in test service) in > PRR lettering. But, did any of them enter REVENUE service before the > Penn Central merger? > > Cheers, > Alan Samostie > ELHS #3178 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:10:39 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] GG1 varieties (more than you think!) Morning y'all, In light of the recent announcements by Roco and Broadway regarding new HO scale GG1s, I've been doing some research! I had naively thought that there were only three critical style differences in GG1 production. 1) 4800 - riveted prototype, uniquely shaped vents on the nose, slight contour differences 2) 4801 to 4858 - original production, flat pilot 3) 4859 to 4938 - drop coupler pilot Two oddballs have come to light in photos 4839 was photographed with a drop coupler pilot in 1957 (DGLE/1stripe). 4859 which is preserved in Harrisburg, appears to have flat pilots. It turns out that the photos reveal other variations as well! When built, all GG1s had vents in the nose that appear flush with the locomotive skin. Somewhere in the early 1950's the border of the vents begins to have a raised contour, perhaps 1-2" above the skin, which in turns make the vents look inset. In addition, vertical channels were added. Now, if the model produced is the later style and is done in styrene, you can carve it back flush, but its gonna be a WHOLE lot more work to do that with a diecast metal body (BLI). On the flip side, a flush vent shell could easily be modified with added detail parts to represent a later loco (which could also be done for the "high vent" GG1s, although you need to obliterate the low vents), so here's hoping for FLUSH VENTS! The vent contour was designed with the pin stripe spacing in mind (or vice versa). This is particularly evident in the one-of-a-kind 1937 scheme on 4829 where the 5 nose stripes became 1 at the vent. Close observation of the 5 stripe locos, as well as some photos of locos in later schemes indicate that thin strips of sheet metal were used across the vents to allow a continuous solid appearance to the pinstripes. No wonder I could never get the %$@# decals right on my IHC GG1! It appears that the same was done with 4800. When the single stripe schemes came along, the thin strips were replaced in many cases by a sheet of metal covering the top 1/5 or so of the vent. This sheet was attached on TOP of the raised border and so that segment of the stripe stood proud by 1-2". This is VERY noticable from any angle beside broadside. In many cases some, or all of the strips for the 5 stripe scheme reamined in place for years after the single stripe was adopted. I guess the good news is that these details are easily added to GG1 models with some sheet brass or styrene stock, since I'm afraid they may not be on either of the new ones, given that they might require a new mold for each paint scheme! Of course, the bottom line is that you have to work from PHOTOS !! For those of you with a copy of Pennsy Electric Pictorial, here are some photo references: p71 4849 - flush vents, DGLE/5 stripe with metal strips for the stripes, 1952. p79 4868 - flush vents, DGLE/5 stripe with metal strips for the stripes, 1956? (I'm dubious) p95 4894 - raised border, DGLE/5 stripe with metal strips for the stripes, 1956. p78 4866 - raised border, Silver/1 stripe with metal strips for pinstripes visible, and metal sheet for single stripe applied, 1956. p61 4810 - raised border, DGLE/1 stripe with metal plate for stripe, (note remnants of pinstrips on vertical channels) 1967. p84 4878 - raised border, DGLE/1 stripe with metal plate for stripe, 1969. Somewhere in my search I found a PC GG1 with the strips for the 5 stripe scheme still intact...that's what really set this thing off in my brain, and now I can't find that photo...sheesh! Anyway, hope you enjoy the info, I did this rather than grade my midterms (why get depressed, right?) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:30:19 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train --part1_18e.fbd8ca2.2ad8488b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/10/02 5:07:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, robs@actel.com writes: > I have diagrams of the cars on my site... See: > > #9600 Class HP53 Head end power car (class HP53) > http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=hp53.gif > #9601-9602 Class P85k (with dining section) > http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p85k_2.gif > #9603-9607 Class P85k (with smoking lounge) > http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p85k.gif > > The AC question is answered by the floorplans. It was in a closet > at one end of the car next to the womens bathroom! > > I wonder why all the cars were classed P85k when some had a lounge > while some had a dining section? Seems like they should have had > different classes. > > Rob Hi Rob and others, One wonders what the food service was like and how it was staffed. The head end power car had a kitchen area that occupied about a third of the car. The public timetable for New York-Philadelphia service dated July 26, 1958 shows the notation "Tubular designed cars. Coach lunch service. Refreshment Car" for trains which were equipped with the Keystone cars. "The Morning Keystone" northbound also had a parlor car and a parlor bar lounge car. "The Crescent" southbound in the afternoon had the tubular cars as part of the consist. "The Evening Keystone" northbound has only references to the tubular cars. "The Midnight Keystone" southbound also had sleeping cars. By this time, the tubular cars must have been making only 2 roundtrips. I think that by the late 1950's the PRR decided to stop buying new coaches for awhile. Instead, it refurbished P70's for a period of time until the Metroliners came along. The P85k's, with their dependence on a head end power car and their interiors with steps and ramps, didn't seem to be the answer to requirements for coaches in NY-Washington service. Andy Hart, PRRTH&S #92 --part1_18e.fbd8ca2.2ad8488b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/10/02 5:07:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, robs@actel.com writes:


I have diagrams of the cars on my site...  See:

#9600 Class HP53   Head end power car (class HP53)
http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=hp53.gif
#9601-9602  Class P85k (with dining section)
http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p85k_2.gif
#9603-9607 Class P85k (with smoking lounge)
http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p85k.gif

The AC question is answered by the floorplans.  It was in a closet
at one end of the car next to the womens bathroom!

I wonder why all the cars were classed P85k when some had a lounge
while some had a dining section?  Seems like they should have had
different classes.

Rob


Hi Rob and others,

One wonders what the food service was like and how it was staffed.

The head end power car had a kitchen area that occupied about a third of the car.

The public timetable for New York-Philadelphia service dated July 26, 1958 shows the notation "Tubular designed cars. Coach lunch service. Refreshment Car" for trains which were equipped with the Keystone cars.  "The Morning Keystone" northbound also had a parlor car and a parlor bar lounge car.  "The Crescent" southbound in the afternoon had the tubular cars as part of the consist. "The Evening Keystone" northbound has only references to the tubular cars. "The Midnight Keystone" southbound also had sleeping cars.  By this time, the tubular cars must have been making only 2 roundtrips.

I think that by the late 1950's the PRR decided to stop buying new coaches for awhile.  Instead, it refurbished P70's for a period of time until the Metroliners came along.  The P85k's, with their dependence on a head end power car and their interiors with steps and ramps, didn't seem to be the answer to requirements for coaches in NY-Washington service.

Andy Hart, PRRTH&S #92 --part1_18e.fbd8ca2.2ad8488b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Tom Kane Subject: RE: [PRR] Tubular Train, and on to Metroliners Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:00:59 -0700 Group, My personal rememberance is that I travelled on Metroliners from NYC to Washington in 1964 and 1965. I still have a sketch I made of the Metroliner, complete with Keytstone on the front. I tried to be in the first car so I could see what the engineer saw (I always did the same on the NYC subway and LIRR). Tom Kane -----Original Message----- From: A Samostie [mailto:quahog@sprint.ca] Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 8:32 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train, and on to Metroliners Dear Group, Now, another question. It would seem that the Keystone cars were about 20 years ahead of their time, which is perhaps the answer to my question: Does anyone know why the Keystone design was not duplicated on other roads, or why they were never more widely used on the PRR? It would seem that these cars could have provided a modern, economical solution for short-haul passenger service on many roads. It's just a shame that high-speed, hourly "Keystone Service" on the corridor did not become a reality (until the Metroliners were introduced in 1967-68). Which raises another question I've had... I know the Metroliners were designed for PRR, and many were delivered (and ran in test service) in PRR lettering. But, did any of them enter REVENUE service before the Penn Central merger? Cheers, Alan Samostie ELHS #3178 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:16:10 -0300 From: A Samostie Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train Dear Group, Andy Hart contributed: >> One wonders what the food service was like and how it was staffed. > The head end power car had a kitchen area that occupied about a third of the car. > The public timetable for New York-Philadelphia service dated July 26, 1958 shows the > notation "Tubular designed cars. Coach lunch service. Refreshment Car". Sounds like the equivalent of today's Amcafé... modern, spartan onboard meal service to match the modern car design concept. Remember, in the late 1950s, self-serve was a novelty, and people were actually eager to try it! (And, budget-minded travelers did not have to leave a tip). > The P85k's, with their dependence on a head end power car and their interiors with steps > and ramps, didn't seem to be the answer to requirements for coaches in > NY-Washington service. OK, I now understand why these cars would not have been an ideal choice for high-density routes like NY-Washington, given the interior steps. I still think they could have found a place on other routes, though (prior to today's ADA requirements). I have ridden bi-level commuter coaches whose windows were at the same level as high-level platforms, and it has never bothered me. My guess is that the crews actually disliked the interior steps more than the passengers did (as is often the case when bi-levels are first introduced on routes previously served by single-level coaches). And, since the Keystone cars were "orphans" on the roster, the maintenance crews probably didn't like them either. Too different, too early. So, then, what WAS the reason for the tubular design anyway, other than experimentation by Budd? Was PRR a driving force behind the concept (i.e., did they endorse it, and promote it in advertising), or were they just "along for the ride" with Budd? Cheers, Alan ELHS #3178 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 12:16:55 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Looking for Bill Emmon From: Jerry Britton Is Bill Emmon on this list? If so, please contact me off-list. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Tom Kane Subject: RE: [PRR] Metroliners Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:47:34 -0700 Alan, It was probably that late, but it was certainly before the PC merger. Upon further reflection I believe I first traveled on the Metroliner in the summer of 1967 (13 yrs old). They were certainly new. My parents would not have let me travel alone before that age. Tom -----Original Message----- From: A Samostie [mailto:quahog@sprint.ca] Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 12:34 PM To: Tom Kane Subject: Re: [PRR] Metroliners Dear Tom, Are you sure it was 1964-65? All of my sources maintain that the Metroliners did not enter service until 1967. Cheers, Alan Tom Kane wrote: > > Group, > > My personal rememberance is that I travelled on Metroliners from NYC to > Washington in 1964 and 1965. I still have a sketch I made of the > Metroliner, complete with Keytstone on the front. I tried to be in the > first car so I could see what the engineer saw (I always did the same on the > NYC subway and LIRR). > > Tom Kane > > -----Original Message----- > From: A Samostie [mailto:quahog@sprint.ca] > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 8:32 PM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train, and on to Metroliners > > Dear Group, > > Now, another question. It would seem that the Keystone cars were about > 20 years ahead of their time, which is perhaps the answer to my > question: Does anyone know why the Keystone design was not duplicated > on other roads, or why they were never more widely used on the PRR? > > It would seem that these cars could have provided a modern, economical > solution for short-haul passenger service on many roads. It's just a > shame that high-speed, hourly "Keystone Service" on the corridor did not > become a reality (until the Metroliners were introduced in 1967-68). > > Which raises another question I've had... I know the Metroliners were > designed for PRR, and many were delivered (and ran in test service) in > PRR lettering. But, did any of them enter REVENUE service before the > Penn Central merger? > > Cheers, > Alan Samostie > ELHS #3178 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Metroliners Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:43:20 -0400 Alan and list, It had to have been after January 8, 1967, because from December 1965 to that date I was a Sales Representative for the PRR in Baltimore and distinctly remember that the Metroliners had not yet entered service and the high platforms were not yet completed at the Baltimore station before i was transferred back to New Orleans. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Kane" To: "'A Samostie'" Cc: "PRR-Talk (E-mail)" Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 12:47 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Metroliners > Alan, > > It was probably that late, but it was certainly before the PC merger. > > Upon further reflection I believe I first traveled on the Metroliner in the > summer of 1967 (13 yrs old). They were certainly new. My parents would not > have let me travel alone before that age. > > Tom > > -----Original Message----- > From: A Samostie [mailto:quahog@sprint.ca] > Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 12:34 PM > To: Tom Kane > Subject: Re: [PRR] Metroliners > > > > Dear Tom, > > Are you sure it was 1964-65? All of my sources maintain that the > Metroliners did not enter service until 1967. > > Cheers, > Alan > > Tom Kane wrote: > > > > Group, > > > > My personal rememberance is that I travelled on Metroliners from NYC to > > Washington in 1964 and 1965. I still have a sketch I made of the > > Metroliner, complete with Keytstone on the front. I tried to be in the > > first car so I could see what the engineer saw (I always did the same on > the > > NYC subway and LIRR). > > > > Tom Kane > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: A Samostie [mailto:quahog@sprint.ca] > > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 8:32 PM > > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train, and on to Metroliners > > > > Dear Group, > > > > Now, another question. It would seem that the Keystone cars were about > > 20 years ahead of their time, which is perhaps the answer to my > > question: Does anyone know why the Keystone design was not duplicated > > on other roads, or why they were never more widely used on the PRR? > > > > It would seem that these cars could have provided a modern, economical > > solution for short-haul passenger service on many roads. It's just a > > shame that high-speed, hourly "Keystone Service" on the corridor did not > > become a reality (until the Metroliners were introduced in 1967-68). > > > > Which raises another question I've had... I know the Metroliners were > > designed for PRR, and many were delivered (and ran in test service) in > > PRR lettering. But, did any of them enter REVENUE service before the > > Penn Central merger? > > > > Cheers, > > Alan Samostie > > ELHS #3178 > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:56:57 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train, and on to Metroliners Hi Tom and others, The first revenue run of a New York-Washington Metroliner occurred on Jan. 16, 1969, almost one year after the start of Penn Central. My source is the March 1969 issue of Trains magazine. Four of the six cars in the train were club cars due to electrical problems with many of the coaches. The cars were outfitted by both GE and Westinghouse. I forget which manufacturer had the problems. Andy Hart, PRRTH&S #92 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Conan Evans" Subject: RE: Baltimore Station -was [PRR] Metroliners Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 14:06:08 -0400 Gregg, The station platforms in Baltimore's Pennsylvania Station were at track level before 1967? I never realized that this was so. Was there a Pennsy/PC program to bring the platform level up to the vestibule? Conan Evans Bristow, VA -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Gregg Mahlkov Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 1:43 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Metroliners Alan and list, It had to have been after January 8, 1967, because from December 1965 to that date I was a Sales Representative for the PRR in Baltimore and distinctly remember that the Metroliners had not yet entered service and the high platforms were not yet completed at the Baltimore station before i was transferred back to New Orleans. Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 14:20:33 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: Baltimore Station -was [PRR] Metroliners I seem to recall seeing track level, brick platforms at Baltimore only 15-20 years ago! They were not the platforms commonly in use. But apparently not all the platforms had been raised. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Conan Evans wrote: > Gregg, > > The station platforms in Baltimore's Pennsylvania Station were at track > level before 1967? I never realized that this was so. Was there a > Pennsy/PC program to bring the platform level up to the vestibule? > > Conan Evans > Bristow, VA > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Gregg > Mahlkov > Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 1:43 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Metroliners > > Alan and list, > > It had to have been after January 8, 1967, because from December 1965 to > that date I was a Sales Representative for the PRR in Baltimore and > distinctly remember that the Metroliners had not yet entered service and the > high platforms were not yet completed at the Baltimore station before i was > transferred back to New Orleans. > > Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 14:19:52 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train, and on to Metroliners > Now, another question. It would seem Perhaps 'seem' may be the operative word. Many articles, both overt Public Relations materials from manufacturers, and from supporters within the RR hierarchy AND 'articles' in the popular and fan press will stress the Wonders to Come. Sometimes the wonders come. Sometimes, the are hidden behind the 'bugs, features, and etc...'. Which may never get writ up so much. > that the Keystone cars were about 20 years ahead of their > time, which is perhaps the answer to my question: Does > anyone know why the Keystone design was not duplicated > on other roads, or why they were never more widely used > on the PRR? Perhaps the Public Relations material promised more than was delivered. (cf Acela, for a recent case.) > It would seem that these cars could have provided a modern, economical > solution for short-haul passenger service on many roads. It's just a > shame that high-speed, hourly "Keystone Service" on the corridor did not > become a reality (until the Metroliners were introduced in 1967-68). Passenger service was at risk, already. New, shiny, _experimental_ equipment may not have been the best solution. The mid '50s were (literally) littered with 'lightweight high speed wonder trains'. The Public Relations for each promised solutions. best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 14:46:01 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Metroliners A quick but not exhaustive search of my archives turned up PC >From 80, Effective July 14, 1969, The Metroliners. This is a single sheet of cardstock, 3.5 x 7.5 inches. This is a bit peculiar, as the fare table on the reverse side has fares effective September 5, 1969; and it is Form 80 3d Edition, 9/5/69. It may be that service began July 14 and this was a reprint of the timetable. The service was two roundtrips every day, plus an express M-F, only stopping at Newark. Time for the express was two hours thirty minutes; the fastest Acela Express I could spot in a recent timetable is nine minutes slower, but has additional stops. What progress in 43 years! One way coach fare NY-DC was $15.75; some expert out there can translate into 2002 dollars I am sure. A few months later PC had started issuing a folder timetable, with the marketing sloga, "The Ground Shuttle." Acela, my eye! It is also possible that the service began earlier, maybe with a single trip, and this was an expanded service. BTW buddy George O. and I were at the west portals of the North River Tunnel to photograph the very first revenue run as it saw the light of day for the first time, not counting the yard in Manhattan of course. So we may have the first photos of a Metroliner on the line on a revenue run. But I don't have a record of the date. Nobody else was around; we foolishly expected a crowd! I kinda recall it being cold, but maybe that's an illusion. The date could not have been before 1968 as I hadn't met George until March 68 or so. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 14:53:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train, and on to Metroliners Aha, Andy says it was 1/16/69! Makes sense, I KNEW it was cold trackside that day! -- John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 15:49:10 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] RE:Metroliner Andy Hart is correct. The Metroliners didn't run in revenue service until after the merger. Al Administrator PRR/PC Metroliner Training Program ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: Baltimore Station -was [PRR] Metroliners Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 15:55:58 -0400 Conan, Yes, I was based at the Baltimore station for two years in 1965 and 1966 and all the platforms were low level brick platforms. As I recall, they were about the level of the bottom step on a passenger car and somewhat crowned. Washington Union Station did not have any high platforms then either. The high platforms were all part of readying the NY-Wash line for Metroliner service. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Conan Evans" To: "TALK PRR-" Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 2:06 PM Subject: RE: Baltimore Station -was [PRR] Metroliners > Gregg, > > The station platforms in Baltimore's Pennsylvania Station were at track > level before 1967? I never realized that this was so. Was there a > Pennsy/PC program to bring the platform level up to the vestibule? > > Conan Evans > Bristow, VA > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Gregg > Mahlkov > Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 1:43 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Metroliners > > Alan and list, > > It had to have been after January 8, 1967, because from December 1965 to > that date I was a Sales Representative for the PRR in Baltimore and > distinctly remember that the Metroliners had not yet entered service and the > high platforms were not yet completed at the Baltimore station before i was > transferred back to New Orleans. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Ballast question Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 20:45:23 +0000 I grew up in Philly (Mayfair) and distinctly remember the ballast on the corridor being dark rust red in color. My question is where did the corridor ballast come from in the early to mid 50's and was it red? If not was the coloring due to brake shoe dust or lack of cleaning? Any thoughts? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:48:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Metroliner Problems List......... What types of problems did the Pennsy/PC have with the Metroliners to delay entry to service almost two years? Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:57:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Metroliner Problems On Fri, 11 Oct 2002 zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > List......... > > What types of problems did the Pennsy/PC have with the > Metroliners to delay entry to service almost two years? This was covered at the last PRRT&HS annual meeting. The one that I found amusing was "not fast enough" but I'll let someone else give a better summary. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Metroliner Problems Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 21:05:53 +0000 My understanding is that just about everything was unrealiable and the USDOT rushed their completion (suspect that an election was involved but don't know). The electricals and several of the mechanical systems were brand new technology and unproven. Since the USDOT was footing part of the bill as I recall they had the final say in much of the cars initial systems. About the only thing that proved out is the shape since the Amtrak cars duplicated it. They required extensive rebuilding and refining before they got into service. I want to think that they suffered from electrical fires but that will need confirmation by someone. There were some issues with tracking or yawing also I think. As I recall PRR wanted to go with the Pioneer type cars as they were the test cars and the USDOT opted for the unproven and untested Budd cars assuming the technology would transfer. Needless to say when the #@^% hit the fan the PRR was found to be the cause and not the politicians! (Consider this diatribe opinion until confirmed. I also recall that part of the reason the PRR went along with the program was the supposed upgrading of the corridor for 150 mph service that they couldn't afford to do themselves. > List......... > > What types of problems did the Pennsy/PC have with the > Metroliners to delay entry to service almost two years? > > Dave Hopson > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Metroliner Problems Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:17:42 -0400 One problem was that the doors would open at speed. The Budd Company hired an outside contractor (IIRC J. W. Marchetti from New England) in order to sort the problems out. I believe that Marchetti was eventually acquired by Budd. I also heard that the electronic testing equipment had paper tape for recording the status of the onboard systems related to the doors. However, the tape was apparently very expensive and the recording equipment was not switched on until AFTER the doors would open. They were stationed at Morrisville and would run from there to New Brunswick at night. Traffic was light and they could test at speed. I did get to check them out while they were laying over during the day. They started out with PRR Keystones on them but the PC logo replaced the Keystones before they were placed in service. Also, the interiors were rather "spartan" during the shakedown. They did not have any of the seat cushions or interior creature comforts installed. Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com Featuring over 10,000 IN-STOCK model railroad items 90A Jersey Avenue New Brunswick, NJ 08901 732-565-1555 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 4:48 PM Subject: [PRR] Metroliner Problems > List......... > > What types of problems did the Pennsy/PC have with the > Metroliners to delay entry to service almost two years? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Ballast question Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 15:49:04 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C27178.65FB56E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Norm, Was the color all encompassing, or was it largely confined to the space between rails? The reason I am asking is that I have been generally unsatisfied with the look of my mainline ballast, which turned out to be an interesting issue. The problem was that it looked different both from place to place but also time to time. I went back and looked closer, taking photos and really trying to figure it out. Here is what I found: 1) PRR used different ballast in different locations, and at different times. That beautiful white limestone was only used in certain places, and only during a certain time period. Other places used darker gray limestone, and even black cinder ballast (although the latter was not used on mains in my area in my time). 2) That red color in my area (perhaps not yours) was mainly confined to the area between rails, and appeared to have been derived mostly from brake shoe dust and/or surficial rust "fall off" and/or commodity leakage (like iron ore?), perhaps mostly the latter. 3) It also disappeared completely after it rained, only to reappear after it got dry again (maybe days later). I can only speculate that the limestone, being porous, absorbed some water and the color was altered, and then reappeared when the surface moisture was gone. It did not wash away, though, as tracks that were rained on and did not have trains pass over them got red again. There were a number of these in my area. 4) The ballast PRR used changed many times over the years. My friends tell me that cinder ballast was more popular "back when". Maybe PRR used cinder from the steel industry in some places? That has a red tinge. I also remember thinking that there were red "pieces" in the ballast when I was younger, until I looked at the individual "rocks". I noticed that those tracks in the iron ore transport corridor had a significant proportion of iron ore pellets and small red rocks (maybe iron content, maybe not, maybe feldspar, maybe reddish sandstone?) in the ballast. Again, I can only speculate that hoppers leaked iron ore (or whatever) into the ballast as the train moved along. And I can say that I do remember a LOT of leakage from the G38's with the poke holes! The "between the rails" thing gives every appearance of being some kind of dust fallout, as it does not evenly color the entire ballast contour, but does stand out in person and in photos (in dry weather!). I think I may try to simulate this with a kind of light overspray after I get the ballast color right (I may have to come back and dark wash that, too. I am experimenting now). I am still not satisfied with my mains. But my secondaries have that red tinge and look right to me. I am using Arizona Rock & Mineral cinder ballast, which does have small red particles in it. Looks gooooood. Best of luck! Elden - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C27178.65FB56E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Ballast question

Norm,  Was the color all encompassing, or was it = largely confined to the space between rails?  The reason I am = asking is that I have been generally unsatisfied with the look of my = mainline ballast, which turned out to be an interesting issue.  = The problem was that it looked different both from place to place but = also time to time.  I went back and looked closer, taking photos = and really trying to figure it out.  Here is what I = found:

1)  PRR used different ballast in different = locations, and at different times.  That beautiful white limestone = was only used in certain places, and only during a certain time = period.  Other places used darker gray limestone, and even black = cinder ballast (although the latter was not used on mains in my area in = my time).

2)  That red color in my area (perhaps not = yours) was mainly confined to the area between rails, and appeared to = have been derived mostly from brake shoe dust and/or surficial rust = "fall off" and/or commodity leakage (like iron ore?), perhaps = mostly the latter.

3)  It also disappeared completely after it = rained, only to reappear after it got dry again (maybe days = later).  I can only speculate that the limestone, being porous, = absorbed some water and the color was altered, and then reappeared when = the surface moisture was gone.  It did not wash away, though, as = tracks that were rained on and did not have trains pass over them got = red again.  There were a number of these in my area.

4)  The ballast PRR used changed many times over = the years.  My friends tell me that cinder ballast was more = popular "back when".  Maybe PRR used cinder from the = steel industry in some places?  That has a red tinge.  I also = remember thinking that there were red "pieces" in the ballast = when I was younger, until I looked at the individual = "rocks".  I noticed that those tracks in the iron ore = transport corridor had a significant proportion of iron ore pellets and = small red rocks (maybe iron content, maybe not, maybe feldspar, maybe = reddish sandstone?) in the ballast.  Again, I can only speculate = that hoppers leaked iron ore (or whatever) into the ballast as the = train moved along.  And I can say that I do remember a LOT of = leakage from the G38's with the poke holes!

The "between the rails" thing gives every = appearance of being some kind of dust fallout, as it does not evenly = color the entire ballast contour, but does stand out in person and in = photos (in dry weather!).  I think I may try to simulate this with = a kind of light overspray after I get the ballast color right (I may = have to come back and dark wash that, too.  I am experimenting = now).

I am still not satisfied with my mains.  But my = secondaries have that red tinge and look right to me.  I am using = Arizona Rock & Mineral cinder ballast, which does have small red = particles in it.  Looks gooooood.

Best of luck!
Elden

-

------_=_NextPart_001_01C27178.65FB56E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 21:19:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Metroliners --part1_8.2e205761.2ad8d2a3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I haven't found which book it is in that shows the PRR cars being tested by Budd on the Reading Co.'s Bethelehem Br.. Believe it was the summer of 66. Will post the book info. when I find it. Evan Leisey --part1_8.2e205761.2ad8d2a3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  I haven't found which book it is in that shows the PRR cars being tested by Budd on the Reading Co.'s Bethelehem Br..  Believe it was the summer of 66.  Will post the book info. when I find it.

 Evan Leisey
--part1_8.2e205761.2ad8d2a3_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 21:27:11 EDT Subject: [PRR] Metroliners --part1_198.ece5f67.2ad8d46f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Found it. 66 is way off as the cars were ordered by the PRR but delivered to the Penn Central. The cars in the photo were being tested during Pennsy's last summer and are in full Pennsy dress. Were they delivered in Pennsy garb? Evan Leisey --part1_198.ece5f67.2ad8d46f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Found it.  66 is way off as the cars were ordered by the PRR but delivered to the Penn Central.  The cars in the photo were being tested during Pennsy's last summer and are in full Pennsy dress.  Were they delivered in Pennsy garb?

 Evan Leisey --part1_198.ece5f67.2ad8d46f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 22:57:09 -0300 From: A Samostie Subject: Re: [PRR] Metroliner Problems Dear Group, My understanding is that the Metroliners' electrical, propulsion, and HVAC systems were unreliable, particularly in snow or cold weather. It seems that snow caused some of the underbody-mounted resistors to short out, which is why most of the cars were rebuilt with those ugly roof shrouds to house electrical components. There is an interesting photo of a GG1 hauling a crippled Metroliner in Zimmerman's "The Remarkable GG1." I'm only aware of one fire, which occurred after the Metroliners were demoted to local service between Philadelphia and Harrisburg (so sad). I think the fire may have been the result of a grade crossing accident, though. The photo appeared in Trains magazine sometime in the early 1980s. I only rode a "real" Metroliner once, in 1977. The cars were barely 10 years old at this time, but did not seem well maintained; the ride quality was quite poor, and they lurched badly in curves and over track irregularities. By 1977, Amtrak had already changed the brand name to "Metroliner Service" and had substituted locomotive-hauled Amfleet trains for "real" Metroliners on most departures. I was disappointed to see Amfleet cars waiting at the platform for our departure from New York... including an ancient PRR GG1 that they hadn't even bothered to repaint. We now know it as "Pennsylvania" GG1 #4935! And now you know the rest of the story. (With apologies to Paul Harvey). Cheers, Alan Samostie ELHS #3178 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 22:33:54 EDT Subject: Re: Baltimore Station -was [PRR] Metroliners --part1_128.190319f3.2ad8e412_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The two Baltimore platforms that are high level were built by Amtrak when the physical plant was revised and upgraded -- about 10 (?) years ago. Some portions of the low-level brick platforms are still visible at the southern end of the station plant, and even more portions of the low-level brick platforms can be found under the high-level platforms! The platforms for tracks 1-3 are still low-level. The platform along track 1 (closest to the station building) was rebuilt and resurfaced with concrete, and now serves the MTA Penn station light rail spur. Only one platform retains its original appearance -- the one between tracks 2 and 3. --part1_128.190319f3.2ad8e412_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The two Baltimore platforms that are high level were built by Amtrak when the physical plant was revised and upgraded -- about 10 (?) years ago.  Some portions of the low-level brick platforms are still visible at the southern end of the station plant, and even more portions of the low-level brick platforms can be found under the high-level platforms!  The platforms for tracks 1-3 are still low-level.  The platform along track 1 (closest to the station building) was rebuilt and resurfaced with concrete, and now serves the MTA Penn station light rail spur.  Only one platform retains its original appearance -- the one between tracks 2 and 3. --part1_128.190319f3.2ad8e412_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 22:36:54 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Ballast question --part1_1ac.a1cca88.2ad8e4c6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The PRR, like most railroads, used ballast extracted from local quarries. Therein lies the reason why the color was never uniform across the whole railroad. --part1_1ac.a1cca88.2ad8e4c6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The PRR, like most railroads, used ballast extracted from local quarries.  Therein lies the reason why the color was never uniform across the whole railroad. --part1_1ac.a1cca88.2ad8e4c6_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 22:51:12 -0400 From: dwsnrhs@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train In a message dated 10/10/2002 12:37:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, crashtech@chartermi.net writes: > > At least 2 of the Keystone Tubular train cars are in Dinner Train Service in > Walled Lake, Michigan, on Coe Rail. (not Conrail) I believe the power car > is on the property, but I'm not sure. The shape of the cars are distinctive > and not likely to be confused with anything else. I was told, but could not > verify, that as old as they were they were generally electrically compatable > with the early Amfleet coaches. > > The interiors were vandelized in the '80's when the all of the cars were > stored at the CN former Grant Truck RR yard in Pontiac, MI., right next to a > public road. (Nice play!!) I have slides or photos somewhere if anyone is > interested. Maybe I could post them somehow. (I can scan them in the.jpg > format.) > > Julian Wolfe, when he was head of SEMTA, (SouthEastern Michigan > Transportation Authority) Rail Operations, purchased the train to ultimately > be rebuild for rail commuter operations from Detroit to Pontiac, MI. The > service never expanded beyond three round trips and was > ultimately > discontinued. I can't recall the year. > > All the best to you and yours Weldon PART TWO OF AN EARLIER REPLY TO LIST: The Keystone cars were, for a time, also stored unassembled-as-a-unit, in the Altoona, PA yards. Some vandalism occurred there also, although some could have occured earlier elsewhere. I have photographed some of that equipment at that stage of it's inactivity. Sorry to see it end up that way. I knew it went west from Altoona but lost track of it, pardon the pun. It was a great train in it's prime. Would be interested in knowing date it was removed from service and it's storage history prior to sale if anyone knows. Dave Seidel, Altoona PA Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS PRRT&HS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWSNRHS@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 22:54:59 EDT Subject: [PRR] TUBULAR TRAIN AND METROLINER Greetings to list: The PENNSY Magazine, July-August 1956 issue, has a complete story on the Tubular Train. The "tubular" shape was an effort to build passenger cars at lower cost. To do this, the center sill was eliminated. Stainless steel was the material of choice. The "engineers found that the tubular car body itself, reinforced by girder-type side construction, would provide the strength needed to meet the safety standards of"..AAR. "Boarding the train,the passenger steps into a vestibule that is of standard height, permitting normal use at high level station platforms. He then enters a smoking section with 14 lounge seats. A walk down three steps, which have illuminated hand rails, brings him to the main coach section, with 56 reclining seats. At the other end, three steps lead up to a section with 12 more reclining seats, a water cooler, and toilets for men and women." The article goes on to describe appointments, and amenities, and "On each bulkhead is a photo-mural of a scene in one of the cities served by the PRR. Twenty-eight cities are represented in the seven cars". The power car also contained a kitchen and simple meals were to be distributed to passengers at their seats. As I recall, upholstery was a pastel shade...between tan/brown/coral, and in a waffle checkerboard pattern, and pleasing to the eye. "Under the new schedule, the Tubular Train leaves Washington at 7 AM as the Morning Keystone and arrives in New York at 10:55 AM. As the Midday Keystone, it leaves New York at 11:30 AM and arrives at Washington at 3:25 PM. As the Evening Keystone, it leaves Washington at 6 PM and arrives at New York at 10:15 PM. As the Midnight Keystone it leaves New York at 11:10 PM and arrives at Washington at 3:15 AM." As an aside, during 1957-1960, while in the USAF, I traveled back and forth regularly between Altoona and New York. On Sunday evenings, the eastbound (Duquesne or Juniata)required that I change trains at 30th Street Station (usually went through North Philadelphia). The connecting train came from Washington. The headend equipment was P-70 or P-85 coach equipment, but the rear of the train had the Tubular Train equipment which I elected to ride in. A very unique experience. At high-level station platforms, all you saw were peoples ankles, but the trip was very pleasant. RE: METROLINERS: The PENNSY magaaine of January 1, 1968 details a test of the new "high speed" equipment at 164 mph. One month to go till MERGER DAY. Dave Seidel, Altoona, PA Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS PRRT&HS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 23:24:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] TUBULAR TRAIN AND METROLINER In a message dated 10/11/02 10:04:11 PM, DWSNRHS@aol.com writes: << The PENNSY Magazine, July-August 1956 issue, has a complete story on the Tubular Train. The "tubular" shape was an effort to build passenger cars at lower cost. To do this, the center sill was eliminated. Stainless steel was the material of choice. The "engineers found that the tubular car body itself, reinforced by girder-type side construction, would provide the strength needed to meet the safety standards of"..AAR. "Boarding the train,the passenger steps into a vestibule that is of standard height, permitting normal use at high level station platforms. He then enters a smoking section with 14 lounge seats. A walk down three steps, which have illuminated hand rails, brings him to the main coach section, with 56 reclining seats. At the other end, three steps lead up to a section with 12 more reclining seats, a water cooler, and toilets for men and women." >> This is much more as I remember it. I lived in NYC and went to school in Philadelphia from 1956 to 1960 and remember these tubular trains very well. I remember the platform on either end and the step down section in the middle. But, I also remember, not mentioned here, a petition at the steps on either end and on both sides the separated the higher section from the lower. I recall thick pieces of glass that blocked noise (and cigarette smoke?) but not light or vision. I also seem to remember that the were things etched on the glass but don't remember what they were. Of course, the last time I expressed my recollections of this list, a number of you very graciously and kindly, pointed out the possible error of my memory. Here, though, I remember the time frame beginning before 1960 rather than after. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Ballast question Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 01:03:46 -0400 I would think the ballast was beat to hell from the wartime traffic that left the PRR with its surmountable debt for being a major carrier of materials during WWII. I do know the PRR West Chester Branch has a quarry on line at Glen Mills, PA. It is just past Wawa. The quarry is used today by SEPTA. Trains run at night time so they do not conflict with daytime commuter trains of the SEPTA R3 line. Usually hopper cars sit on the siding just north of Glen Mills Road. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 4:45 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Ballast question I grew up in Philly (Mayfair) and distinctly remember the ballast on the corridor being dark rust red in color. My question is where did the corridor ballast come from in the early to mid 50's and was it red? If not was the coloring due to brake shoe dust or lack of cleaning? Any thoughts? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 07:26:54 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] Metroliners When the cars were delivered in full PRR dress including "KEYSTONES" they were stored on the Reading Co's siding at Jenkintown across from JENKIN tower. They tested be between Jenkin and the Junction with the NY Short Line at Neshaminy Falls. RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 07:32:09 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train The cars were also stored at ANZON in Jersey City and were visable from the NJTKP extention. I believe the building is near where the light rail service facility is today. dwsnrhs@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 10/10/2002 12:37:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, crashtech@chartermi.net writes: > > > > > At least 2 of the Keystone Tubular train cars are in Dinner Train Service in > > Walled Lake, Michigan, on Coe Rail. (not Conrail) I believe the power car > > is on the property, but I'm not sure. The shape of the cars are distinctive > > and not likely to be confused with anything else. I was told, but could not > > verify, that as old as they were they were generally electrically compatable > > with the early Amfleet coaches. > > > > The interiors were vandelized in the '80's when the all of the cars were > > stored at the CN former Grant Truck RR yard in Pontiac, MI., right next to a > > public road. (Nice play!!) I have slides or photos somewhere if anyone is > > interested. Maybe I could post them somehow. (I can scan them in the.jpg > > format.) > > > > Julian Wolfe, when he was head of SEMTA, (SouthEastern Michigan > > Transportation Authority) Rail Operations, purchased the train to ultimately > > be rebuild for rail commuter operations from Detroit to Pontiac, MI. The > > service never expanded beyond three round trips and was > > ultimately > > discontinued. I can't recall the year. > > > > All the best to you and yours Weldon > > PART TWO OF AN EARLIER REPLY TO LIST: The Keystone cars were, for a time, also stored unassembled-as-a-unit, in the Altoona, PA yards. Some vandalism occurred there also, although some could have occured earlier elsewhere. I have photographed some of that equipment at that stage of it's inactivity. Sorry to see it end up that way. I knew it went west from Altoona but lost track of it, pardon the pun. It was a great train in it's prime. Would be interested in knowing date it was removed from service and it's storage history prior to sale if anyone knows. > > Dave Seidel, Altoona PA > Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS > PRRT&HS > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 07:35:12 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] TUBULAR TRAIN AND METROLINER When I was at Penn State and the Aerotrain was running you could board the Aerotrain in Lewistown and make a cross platform connection at 30th Street to the Keystone to NYP. I did it once. DWSNRHS@aol.com wrote: > > Greetings to list: > > The PENNSY Magazine, July-August 1956 issue, has a complete story on the > Tubular Train. The "tubular" shape was an effort to build passenger cars at > lower cost. To do this, the center sill was eliminated. Stainless steel was > the material of choice. The "engineers found that the tubular car body > itself, reinforced by girder-type side construction, would provide the > strength needed to meet the safety standards of"..AAR. "Boarding the > train,the passenger steps into a vestibule that is of standard height, > permitting normal use at high level station platforms. He then enters a > smoking section with 14 lounge seats. A walk down three steps, which have > illuminated hand rails, brings him to the main coach section, with 56 > reclining seats. At the other end, three steps lead up to a section with 12 > more reclining seats, a water cooler, and toilets for men and women." > > The article goes on to describe appointments, and amenities, and "On each > bulkhead is a photo-mural of a scene in one of the cities served by the PRR. > Twenty-eight cities are represented in the seven cars". The power car also > contained a kitchen and simple meals were to be distributed to passengers at > their seats. As I recall, upholstery was a pastel shade...between > tan/brown/coral, and in a waffle checkerboard pattern, and pleasing to the > eye. > > "Under the new schedule, the Tubular Train leaves Washington at 7 AM as the > Morning Keystone and arrives in New York at 10:55 AM. As the Midday Keystone, > it leaves New York at 11:30 AM and arrives at Washington at 3:25 PM. As the > Evening Keystone, it leaves Washington at 6 PM and arrives at New York at > 10:15 PM. As the Midnight Keystone it leaves New York at 11:10 PM and arrives > at Washington at 3:15 AM." > > As an aside, during 1957-1960, while in the USAF, I traveled back and forth > regularly between Altoona and New York. On Sunday evenings, the eastbound > (Duquesne or Juniata)required that I change trains at 30th Street Station > (usually went through North Philadelphia). The connecting train came from > Washington. The headend equipment was P-70 or P-85 coach equipment, but the > rear of the train had the Tubular Train equipment which I elected to ride in. > A very unique experience. At high-level station platforms, all you saw were > peoples ankles, but the trip was very pleasant. > > RE: METROLINERS: The PENNSY magaaine of January 1, 1968 details a test of > the new "high speed" equipment at 164 mph. One month to go till MERGER DAY. > > Dave Seidel, Altoona, PA > Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS > PRRT&HS > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 07:38:15 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] TUBULAR TRAIN AND METROLINER Juniata Terminal's "Warrior Ridge" will use the same etched glass partition technique to separate the 24 seats in booths from the rest of the parlor, lounge area. The etched glass has a T-1 and an E8 inside of a Keystone. Not installed, yet but coming soon. LAMAassoc@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 10/11/02 10:04:11 PM, DWSNRHS@aol.com writes: > > << > The PENNSY Magazine, July-August 1956 issue, has a complete story on the > Tubular Train. The "tubular" shape was an effort to build passenger cars at > lower cost. To do this, the center sill was eliminated. Stainless steel was > the material of choice. The "engineers found that the tubular car body > itself, reinforced by girder-type side construction, would provide the > strength needed to meet the safety standards of"..AAR. "Boarding the > train,the passenger steps into a vestibule that is of standard height, > permitting normal use at high level station platforms. He then enters a > smoking section with 14 lounge seats. A walk down three steps, which have > illuminated hand rails, brings him to the main coach section, with 56 > reclining seats. At the other end, three steps lead up to a section with 12 > more reclining seats, a water cooler, and toilets for men and women." >> > > This is much more as I remember it. I lived in NYC and went to school in > Philadelphia from 1956 to 1960 and remember these tubular trains very well. I > remember the platform on either end and the step down section in the middle. > > But, I also remember, not mentioned here, a petition at the steps on either > end and on both sides the separated the higher section from the lower. I > recall thick pieces of glass that blocked noise (and cigarette smoke?) but > not light or vision. I also seem to remember that the were things etched on > the glass but don't remember what they were. > > Of course, the last time I expressed my recollections of this list, a number > of you very graciously and kindly, pointed out the possible error of my > memory. > > Here, though, I remember the time frame beginning before 1960 rather than > after. > > Regards, Marty > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 11:51:39 -0400 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: RE: Baltimore Station -was [PRR] Metroliners This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_K8ARxLjKawywm7XkknTFYw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT The high level platforms between 7 and 6 tracks were first installed by the PRR/PC as part of the Metroliner Program. Also upgraded at this time were platforms in Washington and Wilmington, Prior to the Metroliner Program, there were no hi level platforms south of Philadelphia. JW -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 10:34 PM To: mahlkov@gtcom.net; cevans@onlinesecurities.net; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: Baltimore Station -was [PRR] Metroliners The two Baltimore platforms that are high level were built by Amtrak when the physical plant was revised and upgraded -- about 10 (?) years ago. Some portions of the low-level brick platforms are still visible at the southern end of the station plant, and even more portions of the low-level brick platforms can be found under the high-level platforms! The platforms for tracks 1-3 are still low-level. The platform along track 1 (closest to the station building) was rebuilt and resurfaced with concrete, and now serves the MTA Penn station light rail spur. Only one platform retains its original appearance -- the one between tracks 2 and 3. --Boundary_(ID_K8ARxLjKawywm7XkknTFYw) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
The high level platforms between 7 and 6 tracks were first installed by the PRR/PC as part of the Metroliner Program. Also upgraded at this time were platforms in Washington and Wilmington, Prior to the Metroliner Program, there were no hi level platforms south of Philadelphia.
 
JW
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Chrisandbelton2@aol.com
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 10:34 PM
To: mahlkov@gtcom.net; cevans@onlinesecurities.net; prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: Baltimore Station -was [PRR] Metroliners

The two Baltimore platforms that are high level were built by Amtrak when the physical plant was revised and upgraded -- about 10 (?) years ago.  Some portions of the low-level brick platforms are still visible at the southern end of the station plant, and even more portions of the low-level brick platforms can be found under the high-level platforms!  The platforms for tracks 1-3 are still low-level.  The platform along track 1 (closest to the station building) was rebuilt and resurfaced with concrete, and now serves the MTA Penn station light rail spur.  Only one platform retains its original appearance -- the one between tracks 2 and 3.
--Boundary_(ID_K8ARxLjKawywm7XkknTFYw)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 13:32:48 EDT Subject: Re: Baltimore Station -was [PRR] Metroliners --part1_cf.1e87c177.2ad9b6c0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't remember seeing any high level platforms at Wilmington or Baltimore until well into the Amtrak era. --part1_cf.1e87c177.2ad9b6c0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't remember seeing any high level platforms at Wilmington or Baltimore until well into the Amtrak era. --part1_cf.1e87c177.2ad9b6c0_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 14:04:19 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: CUT Tower A Here's a better answer to Bob Fredland's question about what happened to the interlocking machine, courtesy of CRRC President Pat Rose. Basically, the Cincinnati Railroad Club now sets up chairs for its meetings in the large floor space vacated. Remember, Tower A is open to the public -- see CRRC's website at http://www.cincinnatirrclub.org/ for current hours. In a message dated 10/11/02 8:51:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Patrick.Rose@ae.ge.com writes: > Rick, > The machine was a Union Switch & Signal Model 14 Electo-Pneumatic > Interlocker. It operated on 24VDC with compressed air (made by the largest > steam powered air compressors you've ever seen) powering the switch motors. > It occupied the majority of the center of the main room in Tower A and was > a little longer than the model board. We have the approximate space it > occupied outlined on the floor in black tile. The balance of the floor is > cinnamon colored to emulate the varnished cork floor that was once there. > We were told by former CUT employees that the B&O removed the machine > sometime in 1973 for spare parts for similar machines around their system. > The long desk was, in fact, the train director's desk. Whether or not > it's the worlds longest is yet to be determined but it never seemed longer > than when we had to place and cut the single (yes, single) piece of desktop > linoleum on it. You can bet we measured several times before cutting. In > fact, the roll sat up there for almost a year before we screwed up the > courage to take a knife to it. > We do hope someday to animate the model board realistically. We > believe we know how to do it, it'll just take time and money. > Thanks > Patrick Rose > CRRC > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RickTipton@aol.com [mailto:RickTipton@aol.com] >> Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 11:31 PM >> To: PRR@yahoogroups.com; PennsyWest@egroups.com; PRRSignaling@onelist.com; >> PRR@egroups.com >> Cc: Patrick.Rose@ae.ge.com; rb@woh.rr.com; rbailey@oki.org >> Subject: CUT Tower A >> >> >> In a message dated 9/25/02 4:48:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >> PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: >> >> >> >>> Message: 5 >>> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:23:44 -0700 (PDT) >>> From: ROBT FREDLAND >>> Subject: Re: Cincinnati Union Terminal in 2004 >>> >>> Messr's. Wallis and Tipton, >>> >>> This all is charming. What happened to the interlocking machine, >>> however? >>> >>> Bob Fredland >>> >> > Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please) Wolf Penn Station 5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive Prospect, KY 40059-9197 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Home Selling? Try Us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/MVfIAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 14:04:19 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: CUT Tower A --part1_1bf.10b6de55.2ad9be23_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's a better answer to Bob Fredland's question about what happened to the interlocking machine, courtesy of CRRC President Pat Rose. Basically, the Cincinnati Railroad Club now sets up chairs for its meetings in the large floor space vacated. Remember, Tower A is open to the public -- see CRRC's website at http://www.cincinnatirrclub.org/ for current hours. In a message dated 10/11/02 8:51:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Patrick.Rose@ae.ge.com writes: > Rick, > The machine was a Union Switch & Signal Model 14 Electo-Pneumatic > Interlocker. It operated on 24VDC with compressed air (made by the largest > steam powered air compressors you've ever seen) powering the switch motors. > It occupied the majority of the center of the main room in Tower A and was > a little longer than the model board. We have the approximate space it > occupied outlined on the floor in black tile. The balance of the floor is > cinnamon colored to emulate the varnished cork floor that was once there. > We were told by former CUT employees that the B&O removed the machine > sometime in 1973 for spare parts for similar machines around their system. > The long desk was, in fact, the train director's desk. Whether or not > it's the worlds longest is yet to be determined but it never seemed longer > than when we had to place and cut the single (yes, single) piece of desktop > linoleum on it. You can bet we measured several times before cutting. In > fact, the roll sat up there for almost a year before we screwed up the > courage to take a knife to it. > We do hope someday to animate the model board realistically. We > believe we know how to do it, it'll just take time and money. > Thanks > Patrick Rose > CRRC > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RickTipton@aol.com [mailto:RickTipton@aol.com] >> Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 11:31 PM >> To: PRR@yahoogroups.com; PennsyWest@egroups.com; PRRSignaling@onelist.com; >> PRR@egroups.com >> Cc: Patrick.Rose@ae.ge.com; rb@woh.rr.com; rbailey@oki.org >> Subject: CUT Tower A >> >> >> In a message dated 9/25/02 4:48:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >> PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: >> >> >> >>> Message: 5 >>> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:23:44 -0700 (PDT) >>> From: ROBT FREDLAND >>> Subject: Re: Cincinnati Union Terminal in 2004 >>> >>> Messr's. Wallis and Tipton, >>> >>> This all is charming. What happened to the interlocking machine, >>> however? >>> >>> Bob Fredland >>> >> > Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please) Wolf Penn Station 5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive Prospect, KY 40059-9197 --part1_1bf.10b6de55.2ad9be23_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's a better answer to Bob Fredland's question about what happened to the interlocking machine, courtesy of CRRC President Pat Rose.  Basically, the Cincinnati Railroad Club now sets up chairs for its meetings in the large floor space vacated.

Remember, Tower A is open to the public -- see CRRC's website at http://www.cincinnatirrclub.org/ for current hours.

In a message dated 10/11/02 8:51:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Patrick.Rose@ae.ge.com writes:


Rick,
    The machine was a Union Switch & Signal Model 14 Electo-Pneumatic Interlocker.  It operated on 24VDC with compressed air (made by the largest steam powered air compressors you've ever seen) powering the switch motors.  It occupied the majority of the center of the main room in Tower A and was a little longer than the model board.  We have the approximate space it occupied outlined on the floor in black tile.  The balance of the floor is cinnamon colored to emulate the varnished cork floor that was once there.  We were told by former CUT employees that the B&O removed the machine sometime in 1973 for spare parts for similar machines around their system.
    The long desk was, in fact, the train director's desk.  Whether or not it's the worlds longest is yet to be determined but it never seemed longer than when we had to place and cut the single (yes, single) piece of desktop linoleum on it.  You can bet we measured several times before cutting.  In fact, the roll sat up there for almost a year before we screwed up the courage to take a knife to it.
    We do hope someday to animate the model board realistically.  We believe we know how to do it, it'll just take time and money.
Thanks
Patrick Rose
CRRC

-----Original Message-----
From: RickTipton@aol.com [mailto:RickTipton@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 11:31 PM
To: PRR@yahoogroups.com; PennsyWest@egroups.com; PRRSignaling@onelist.com; PRR@egroups.com
Cc: Patrick.Rose@ae.ge.com; rb@woh.rr.com; rbailey@oki.org
Subject: CUT Tower A


In a message dated 9/25/02 4:48:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 5
   Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:23:44 -0700 (PDT)
   From: ROBT FREDLAND <bobaud@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Cincinnati Union Terminal in 2004

Messr's. Wallis and Tipton,

  This all is charming. What happened to the interlocking machine, however?

Bob Fredland





Rick Tipton
Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana.
Email RickTipton@aol.com
Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please)
Wolf Penn Station
5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive
Prospect, KY 40059-9197 --part1_1bf.10b6de55.2ad9be23_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 20:04:17 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Calling for Online PRR Layouts From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" I've been reviewing the Layouts page on Keystone Crossings. I've removed some dead links and updated some others. If your Pennsy layout is online and is not on the Layouts page, please send me the URL. If your layout substantially represents actual PRR locations it will be considered for inclusion in the PRR Virtual Layout. I also offer free layout web site hosting for substantial layouts (not a 4' by 8' sheet of plywood with an oval of track). Contact me if you are interested in this. Those whose layouts are already hosted at my server, please feel free to contact me with updates, additional photos, etc. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 21:12:52 -0400 From: Alex Charyna Subject: [PRR] Steep PRR Grades Just bought Triumph III. Reading through it, it said that the 3.1% grade at St. Clair is the third steepest on the entire system. What were the other two? thanks -alex ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 21:35:05 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Steep PRR Grades From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" on 10/12/02 9:12 PM, Alex Charyna at alex@arclyte.com wrote: > Just bought Triumph III. > > Reading through it, it said that the 3.1% grade at St. Clair is the > third steepest on the entire system. > What were the other two? > I don't have the data, or know the location first hand, but what about Madison Hill? What about Keating Summit? I know/think it was steeper than the eastern slope/Horseshoe Curve area. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 21:38:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Steep PRR Grades --part1_131.155c7e69.2ada28b2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One of the others is in Indiana were the grade is just under 6%. This was on the list a few weeks back in a question about the two modified EMD SD-7's on the Pennsy. Just after leaving North Vernon, Indiana the line headed down a nearly 6% grade to the Ohio River then on to Madison, Indiana. In steam days, the operating procedure was to the run the locos backwards down the grade to keep water over the crown sheet. Evan Leisey --part1_131.155c7e69.2ada28b2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One of the others is in Indiana were the grade is just under 6%.  This was on the list a few weeks back in a question about the two modified EMD SD-7's on the Pennsy.  Just after leaving North Vernon, Indiana the line headed down a nearly 6% grade to the Ohio River then on to Madison, Indiana.  In steam days,  the operating procedure was to the run the locos backwards down the grade to keep water over the crown sheet.

Evan Leisey --part1_131.155c7e69.2ada28b2_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 21:40:00 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Steep PRR Grades In a message dated 10/12/02 8:21:26 PM, alex@arclyte.com writes: << Reading through it, it said that the 3.1% grade at St. Clair is the third steepest on the entire system. What were the other two? >> There was, as I recall, a switchback at Foxbourogh, in PA that was very steep. I don't remember what it was used for (access to one or more mines?) or during what years. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 23:19:56 -0400 From: Christopher Hoess Subject: Re: [PRR] Steep PRR Grades On Sat, Oct 12, 2002 at 09:40:00PM -0400, LAMAassoc@aol.com wrote: > > There was, as I recall, a switchback at Foxbourogh, in PA that was very > steep. I don't remember what it was used for (access to one or more mines?) > or during what years. I think the Foxburg switchback was on the B&O (former P&W narrow gauge). -- Chris Hoess ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 02:41:52 -0400 From: Zak Subject: [PRR] GEEP MU query (off-PRR) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_QosBQuI/PO6XyOlXn+3y6Q) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi, List, This is probably a dumb question, but in real life could a (for example) GP7 with the "torpedo tubes" run back-to-back with another GP7 without "TTs", to provide both passenger and freight service? I realize "it would be a hellovaway to run a railroad", but I'm just wondering if it could be done. In theory - mine at least - during passenger service, the "TTs" could provide the steam generation; while in freight service, both GEEPs would have the power to move a couple or three cars. As I say, this is totally off the PRR *Mainline*, so if anyone cares to reply, please do so off-line. Zak --Boundary_(ID_QosBQuI/PO6XyOlXn+3y6Q) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Hi, List,
 
This is probably a dumb question, but in real life could a  (for example) GP7 with the "torpedo tubes" run back-to-back with another GP7 without "TTs", to provide both passenger and freight service?
 
I realize "it would be a hellovaway to run a railroad", but I'm just wondering if it could be done.
 
In theory - mine at least - during passenger service, the "TTs" could provide the steam generation; while in freight service, both  GEEPs would have the power to move a couple or three cars.
 
As I say, this is totally off the PRR *Mainline*, so if anyone cares to reply, please do so off-line.
 
Zak
--Boundary_(ID_QosBQuI/PO6XyOlXn+3y6Q)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 11:49:18 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] GEEP MU query (off-PRR) In a message dated 10/13/02 1:57:33 AM Central Daylight Time, casimer.zakrzewski@us.army.mil writes: << This is probably a dumb question, but in real life could a (for example) GP7 with the "torpedo tubes" run back-to-back with another GP7 without "TTs", to provide both passenger and freight service? I realize "it would be a hellovaway to run a railroad", but I'm just wondering if it could be done. In theory - mine at least - during passenger service, the "TTs" could provide the steam generation; while in freight service, both GEEPs would have the power to move a couple or three cars. >> 1. Very good question, but why discuss offline? There are a lot of issues which your question raises which it would be helpful to have more than one input: e.g., which units have MU capability, steam generators, MU at both ends, torpedo tubes, steam lines, etc. 2. I believe most of the steam-generator-equipped Geeps (and Alco RS-3's) had MU capability and I assume could also operate elephant-style as well as back-to-back. Am I right, list? 3. Question: do the non steam generator equipped roadswitchers have steam lines or controls to operate a steam generator in a second unit? This would tell you whether your two-unit set could be operated on a passenger train. 4. I believe most of the "passenger" Geeps had MU capability so use in freight lashups shouldn't be a problem. 5. I look to the list for help, but I believe a minority of the passenger geeps had the torpedo tubes. Most did not. 6. You mention a lashup pulling a couple or three cars. A single passenger Geep could pull 8 loaded cars up Cajon Pass's 2.1% grade, much less what it could do on level ground. Another question would be whether an RS-3/GP7 lashup could operate a passenger train. As I said, a good and interesting question. I have a question for Lines Westers in the Chicago area. Did the passenger Geeps ever run on the "bottle" train ? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 12:57:34 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] GEEP MU query (off-PRR) --part1_3f.1349a3e4.2adafffe_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would love to here more about the passenger Geeps with TT myself, although the ones I have are B&O :) I wasn't even aware the PRR had any ? I know the B&O ran the Geeps with TT for passenger service, but they also ran freight when needed, so I assume the same would be true of the PRR. I just got a set of Erie Builts, and was surprised to find they ran passenger trains and freights! SO I now have another set of passenger engines, but have a Geep for passenger service would be nice! Who makes this engine in passenger service? or what would be different about it so far as a model? Now for the part that's more inline with this topic! I remember reading before that the PRR did not like to mix engines, and preferred to have MU's of the same make of engine. SO this would probably mean no RS units with a GP :( BUT I dont remember if that mean not mixing a GP7 with a GP9, or if it was good enough that both were Geeps! Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period PRRT&HS #7136 List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo --part1_3f.1349a3e4.2adafffe_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would love to here more about the passenger Geeps with TT myself, although the ones I have are B&O :)  I wasn't even aware the PRR had any ?  I know the B&O ran the Geeps with TT for passenger service, but they also ran freight when needed, so I assume the same would be true of the PRR.  

I just got a set of Erie Builts, and was surprised to find they ran passenger trains and freights!  SO I now have another set of passenger engines, but have a Geep for passenger service would be nice! Who makes this engine in passenger service? or what would be different about it so far as a model?

Now for the part that's more inline with this topic!
I remember reading before that the PRR did not like to mix engines, and preferred to have MU's of the same make of engine. SO this would probably mean no RS units with a GP :(  BUT I dont remember if that mean not mixing a GP7 with a GP9, or if it was good enough that both were Geeps!


Mike Schock
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period
PRRT&HS  #7136
List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo
--part1_3f.1349a3e4.2adafffe_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 14:19:35 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] GEEP MU query (off-PRR) >> ... in real life could a (for example) GP7 with the >> "torpedo tubes" run back-to-back with another GP7 without >> "TTs", to provide both passenger and freight service? Sure. With possible constraints. In a general sense there is a AAR (?) standard for the MU circuits, that allows anything meeting the standard to MU. There are constraints: The control circuitry allows both to share the load (within each unit): however, if the GEARING is different, the lowest speed gearing sets the speed limit for the set. The 'torpedo tubes' are relocated air tanks: make no difference to MU'ing. >> I realize "it would be a hellovaway to run a railroad", but >> I'm just wondering if it could be done. >> In theory - mine at least - during passenger service, the >>"TTs" could provide the steam generation; Torpedo tubes (as such) are air tanks, with no influence on trainheating. >> while in freight service, both GEEPs would have the power to >>move a couple or three cars. 2 or 3 (freight) cars would be nicely handled by any passenger geared/equipped lok. Such a hybrid set would be wasting resources (steam generator) while on freight work. It would take detail economic analysis to decide if it made sense. Also, there is a relation between need for steam and need for power. If the combined set never needed the extra power, the extra power would be wasted (bad economics). If the passenger ops needed the extra power, they also would need the extra steam... > 1. Very good question, but why discuss offline? There are a > lot of issues which your question raises which it would be > helpful to have more than one input: e.g., which units have > MU capability, steam generators, MU at both ends, torpedo > tubes, steam lines, etc. > 2. I believe most of the steam-generator-equipped Geeps (and > Alco RS-3's) had MU capability and I assume could also operate > elephant-style as well as back-to-back. Am I right, list? > 3. Question: do the non steam generator equipped roadswitchers > have steam lines or controls The controls were on the steam generator. The point about needing steam plumbing thru the second unit is apt. > to operate a steam generator in a second unit? At most, IIR, there were 'indicators' for the steam generator in the cab, not even sure about that. > This would tell you whether your two-unit set could be operated > on a passenger train. best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 17:54:05 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] GEEP MU query (off-PRR) In a message dated 10/13/02 12:02:26 PM Central Daylight Time, USMCnewdog25431@cs.com writes: << I remember reading before that the PRR did not like to mix engines, and preferred to have MU's of the same make of engine. SO this would probably mean no RS units with a GP >> Quite true, initially, but (and I am not sure what the magic year was for the change of heart) later consists could be a dog's breakfast, leaving out the pneumatic control Baldwins. I understand MUing an Erie-built with an F7 (which happened) required some major electrical connection kluges. In any event, there is a shot I always liked of a GP and RS3 MUed in one of the Pennsy Power books. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 18:08:17 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] GEEP MU query (off-PRR) In a message dated 10/13/02 1:27:28 PM Central Daylight Time, davep@quik.com writes: << 2 or 3 (freight) cars would be nicely handled by any passenger geared/equipped lok. Such a hybrid set would be wasting resources (steam generator) while on freight work. >> I believe PRR Geeps were all geared the same. Re the use of resources, the two Valpo dummies around Chicago sat idle from about 8 AM to 4PM. I believe there also were extra steam-generator-equipped Geeps , so they were seen in transfer service around the city. As you indicated, the torpedo tubes were air, relocated to allow larger water tanks. No indication of why the last batch of GP7s with steam generators didn't relocate the tanks. However, Bob Volkmer in Pennsy Diesel Years 6(?) mentioned that they did occasionally run out of fuel on the suburban runs when crews used them all day in transfer service and didn't check. These were small fuel tank Geeps. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 18:14:15 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] GEEP MU query (off-PRR) In a message dated 10/13/02 12:02:26 PM Central Daylight Time, USMCnewdog25431@cs.com writes: << Who makes this engine in passenger service? or what would be different about it so far as a model? >> P2K made an NYC (I think) version of the torpedo-tube unit. I have the air tank kit (by Details West?) to convert my Atlas GP7. I need to check which steam generator exhaust is appropriate. There may also be a problem with size of fuel and water tanks. Jim Six on the Railway Prototype Modelers list he moderates went into this in some detail a few years ago. If I get ambitious, I will check the archives. I repeat that not all the steam-generator-equipped Geeps had the air tanks relocated to the roof. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] GEEP MU query (off-PRR) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 19:15:19 -0500 GP-7's--Pennsy had three with torpedo tubes: 8551, 8552, 8553. The air tanks were placed on top to make room for train control equipment. 8551 and 8552 also had dual controls for operation in either direction and were used in passenger trains on the Elmira branch. Photos also show them operating on freight trains. With steam generators, the air tanks, and train phone antenna (no dynamic brakes) there was a lot of detail to model on the top. P2K made an undec GP-7 which had the torpedo tubes included. These three engines were late production GP-7's and would be more accurately modeled with the P2K model than the Atlas which is a very good model of an early phase. The most noticeable difference between the phases is the footboards--later engines had box like receptacles to contain the ends of unconnected MU hoses. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: [PRR] My Review of Withers Vol. 7, E's & PA's Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 19:57:40 -0500 I'm not a professional book reviewer, and maybe I shouldn't have tried this at home, but here goes: I've only spent the first of many hours with this book. If you are interested in the modeling or history of the PRR E's or PA's, get this book. The book is about 96 pages long, and 90% of the pages have 3 photos on them. The other 10% have 1 or 2 photos, tables, and text. So I'd estimate there are 260 or more photos. The photos are excellent. Every paint scheme is represented. There are even some roof shots. The text describes the reasoning for the orders, as well as some of the modifications. The tables list every PRR unit. They include Road Number, PRR Class, Builder's Date, Builder's Number, Order Number, etc. I only have two minor complaints with this book. The first minor complaint is there are no rear photos of any of the units. I guess the rear was not interesting to photographers, and the publisher did not have any good shots to choose from. Minor complaint number two is a lack of photos from 1951-1954. There are plenty of photos from builders photos to 1950, and 1955 to merger. 1951-1954 was when a lot of interesting modifications were made, and photos from this period would help pinpoint more exact dates of these changes. Some of the modifications I'm thinking of are grabs above the windshields, grabs on the "cheeks", and the EP-20 Phase II carbody modifications. I'm not saying there aren't any photos from 1951-1954, but there are only a handful, mostly of EP-22's. Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 07:04:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] GEEP MU query (off-PRR) --part1_16f.1583fe22.2adbfebf_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/13/2002 6:00:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bobspf@aol.com writes: > In any > event, there is a shot I always liked of a GP and RS3 MUed in one of the > Pennsy Power books. > I agree about mixing power! I have an RS unit that runs great with an RS11, both alco? :) I would be more interested in narrowing down that magic year the PRR started mixing power though! I model a pretty wide time frame (1940's to the 1950's), so hopefully it will be in there!! Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period PRRT&HS #7136 List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo --part1_16f.1583fe22.2adbfebf_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/13/2002 6:00:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bobspf@aol.com writes:


In any
event, there is a shot I always liked of a GP and RS3 MUed in one of the
Pennsy Power books.  


I agree about mixing power! I have an RS unit that runs great with an RS11, both alco? :)

I would be more interested in narrowing down that magic year the PRR started mixing power though! I model a pretty wide time frame (1940's to the 1950's), so hopefully it will be in there!!

Mike Schock
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period
PRRT&HS  #7136
List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo
--part1_16f.1583fe22.2adbfebf_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 07:57:50 EDT Subject: [PRR] North What? Indiana (Madison Branch) --part1_148.5f06c0.2adc0b3e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/13/02 1:26:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > One of the others is in Indiana were the grade is just under 6%. This was > on the list a few weeks back in a question about the two modified EMD > SD-7's > on the Pennsy. Just after leaving North Vernon, Indiana the line headed > down > a nearly 6% grade to the Ohio River then on to Madison, Indiana. In steam > days, the operating procedure was to the run the locos backwards down the > grade to keep water over the crown sheet. > > Evan Leisey > Correct in spirit -- however, note that the Madison Branch of the PRR began with MP 0.0 at COLUMBUS Indiana, itself 41 miles down the 111 mile Louisville Branch from Indianapolis. The Branch then crossed fairly flat country (and track abandoned since Conrail) to its crossing of the B&O/Ohio & Mississippi main line at the junction town of NORTH VERNON, MP 21.5. At North Vernon, the PRR crossed the B&O main and an NYC branch. South of North Vernon, track still in operation by the local port authority's railroad leads through VERNON (MP 23.1), JEFF (MP 36.9 and the connection of US Army tracks leading into the now-civilianized Jefferson Proving Grounds), and to the town of NORHT MADISON (MP 43.0). Here the present short line railroad finds a handful of industries to serve, and the end of active track. Only at the south edge of North Madison does the Madison Hill pitch off a bluff and form an essentially straight ramp downhill to the bank of the Ohio River, diving from 870.2 feet above sea level to 449.5 feet, or just above Ohio River level. The Hill itself, an average 5.89% grade but according to engineering data with one stretch exceeding 6%, has not seen traffic since the last heavy equipment was moved in or out of the riverside power generating plant in 1993 -- and had lain unmaintained for years before that. At the bottom of Madison Hill lies the old riverboat town of MADISON IN (MP 45.2), but not before the tracks make a suicidal 90 degree curve to parallel the riverbank. History (most recently an article in Trains magazine) records that sometimes trains did not hold the curve, and runaways went straight into the river. Madison, the original starting place of this first railroad in Indiana, has built a replica of its octagonal passenger station, and the photo story inside offers much to the fan of railroad history. The Hill itself, visible at a few places from highways, is an interesting walk, but one must dodge the young trees that are growing between the rails, and watch out for the notorious local copperhead snake population. Unless one is familiar with the area, the temptation to confuse North Vernon with North Madison is overwhelming. Adding to the chaos, JEFF is a named block station on the Madison Branch, and easily confused with JEFFERSONVILLE, the PRR yard and town at MP 107.2 on the Louisville Branch and just across the Ohio River from Louisville -- folks around here verbally refer to it as "Jeff" and "Jeff Yard" for short. At least all this is more clear than a cluster of Indiana towns with Green in the name -- Greenfield, Greenwood, Greensburg, Greencastle -- each within a few miles of Indianapolis, but each in different directions. David Letterman could probably come up with the top ten Green place names in Indiana. Oh well... Rick Tipton On the Ohio River at Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_148.5f06c0.2adc0b3e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/13/02 1:26:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


One of the others is in Indiana were the grade is just under 6%.  This was
on the list a few weeks back in a question about the two modified EMD SD-7's
on the Pennsy.  Just after leaving North Vernon, Indiana the line headed down
a nearly 6% grade to the Ohio River then on to Madison, Indiana.  In steam
days,  the operating procedure was to the run the locos backwards down the
grade to keep water over the crown sheet.

Evan Leisey


Correct in spirit -- however, note that the Madison Branch of the PRR began with MP 0.0 at COLUMBUS Indiana, itself 41 miles down the 111 mile Louisville Branch from Indianapolis.  The Branch then crossed fairly flat country (and track abandoned since Conrail) to its crossing of the B&O/Ohio & Mississippi main line at the junction town of NORTH VERNON, MP 21.5.  At North Vernon, the PRR crossed the B&O main and an NYC branch.  South of North Vernon, track still in operation by the local port authority's railroad leads through VERNON (MP 23.1), JEFF (MP 36.9 and the connection of US Army tracks leading into the now-civilianized Jefferson Proving Grounds), and to the town of NORHT MADISON (MP 43.0).  Here the present short line railroad finds a handful of industries to serve, and the end of active track.

Only at the south edge of North Madison does the Madison Hill pitch off a bluff and form an essentially straight ramp downhill to the bank of the Ohio River, diving from 870.2 feet above sea level to 449.5 feet, or just above Ohio River level.  The Hill itself, an average 5.89% grade but according to engineering data with one stretch exceeding 6%, has not seen traffic since the last heavy equipment was moved in or out of the riverside power generating plant in 1993 -- and had lain unmaintained for years before that. 

At the bottom of Madison Hill lies the old riverboat town of MADISON IN (MP 45.2), but not before the tracks make a suicidal 90 degree curve to parallel the riverbank.  History (most recently an article in Trains magazine) records that sometimes trains did not hold the curve, and runaways went straight into the river.

Madison, the original starting place of this first railroad in Indiana, has built a replica of its octagonal passenger station, and the photo story inside offers much to the fan of railroad history.  The Hill itself, visible at a few places from highways, is an interesting walk, but one must dodge the young trees that are growing between the rails, and watch out for the notorious local copperhead snake population.

Unless one is familiar with the area, the temptation to confuse North Vernon with North Madison is overwhelming.  Adding to the chaos, JEFF is a named block station on the Madison Branch, and easily confused with JEFFERSONVILLE, the PRR yard and town at MP 107.2 on the Louisville Branch and just across the Ohio River from Louisville -- folks around here verbally refer to it as "Jeff" and "Jeff Yard" for short.

At least all this is more clear than a cluster of Indiana towns with Green in the name -- Greenfield, Greenwood, Greensburg, Greencastle -- each within a few miles of Indianapolis, but each in different directions.  David Letterman could probably come up with the top ten Green place names in Indiana.  Oh well...



Rick Tipton
On the Ohio River at Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_148.5f06c0.2adc0b3e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 09:31:40 -0400 Subject: [PRR] PRR Virtual Layout From: Jerry Britton I've done a rework of the PRR Virtual Layout page(s) at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/virtual_prr/ In addition to a listing of member layouts and a series of regional maps showing members, there is now a "System" map showing represented areas. I've also promoted George Pierson's layout to "Member" status, although I have not made a site visit. I waived the site visit requirement since his Denholm coal wharf has been featured in the modeling press. Welcome aboard, George! I've also found two new layouts that have membership pending... There is an N scale layout that models Harrisburg to Williamsport, Williamsport to Buffalo, and Williamsport to Sodus Point. It is the latter, the Elmira Branch, that is a frontrunner for inclusion. I've also found an N scale layout that models the Susquehanna Division from Harrisburg to Northumberland. Both of these owners have invited me to visit and to take pics, so you'll be seeing them at some point. Although I haven't made direct contact yet, I've been e-introduced to a guy who's doing the "Low Grade" in HO scale. Stan Ebersole: I need your Northern Central Branch to get you included from Wago Junction to York. Thanks! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] GEEP MU query (off-PRR) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 07:41:29 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2738F.C813E5E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi all; Didn't Bill Volkmer and others discuss this in the PDY books? It was also later covered in more detail elsewhere. I think the big mixing (which did not include Baldwin power) began around '62 with the retrofitting of 27 point jumpers into Alco and a few FM road units. After that it was a free-for-all. All three of the three big remaining manufacturers (EMD,GE,Alco) were freely mixed. Older stuff got mixed where compatible (EMD cabs with occasional FM C-Liners; Alcos and EMDs). Before the 60's, PRR liked to keep like sets matched. Hope this helps. Elden ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2738F.C813E5E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi all;
Didn't Bill Volkmer and others discuss this in the PDY books?  It was also later covered in more detail elsewhere.  I think the big mixing (which did not include Baldwin power) began around '62 with the retrofitting of 27 point jumpers into Alco and a few FM road units.  After that it was a free-for-all.  All three of the three big remaining manufacturers (EMD,GE,Alco) were freely mixed.  Older stuff got mixed where compatible (EMD cabs with occasional FM C-Liners; Alcos and EMDs). Before the 60's, PRR liked to keep like sets matched.  Hope this helps.
Elden
 
------_=_NextPart_001_01C2738F.C813E5E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:53:22 -0400 Subject: [PRR] 1955 System Map by Region / 1951 Regional Maps From: Jerry Britton Over the weekend I scanned and posted a very nice, and clean, PRR system map. The map is as of the "November 1, 1955 Reorganization" and each of the region's trackage is color coded. Very nice. It's in the Maps section of Keystone Crossings at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/maps/ I'm still looking for a set of Division Accounting Maps for the 1951 reorganization. At one point someone thought they had them, but they were mistaken. If you have a set that you can loan me for about two weeks I would really appreciate it. I did acquire a set of 1958 Division Accounting Maps which I will scan shortly after I release the "Pennsylvania Railroad in 1954" CD-ROM, which is almost complete and contains thousands of pages of PRR documentation. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Oct 02 12:32:59 EDT From: LINKM@timken.com Subject: [PRR] HO scale decals List, Are the Microscale decals listed in the Walthers catalog, for PRR steam en gines, a correct buy? I'm sure the freight engines of the late 40's and after h ad gold buff lettering, not dulux gold, correct? Also, do these decal sets have numbers small enough for a number plate on the smokebox front? If anyone out t here knows where I can get decal sets that are correct for 1940's and later fre ight and passenger steamers, please advise. I know that decals are becoming sca rce as manufacturers dwindle in numbers. Thanks in advance! Matt Link PRR T&HS #7140 ********************************************************************** This message and any attachments are intended for the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not forward, copy, print, use or disclose this communication to others; also please notify the sender by replying to this message, and then delete it from your system. The Timken Company ********************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 12:50:43 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] HO scale decals Matt, I thought "dulux gold" and "gold buff" were the same. The original was "bronze gold" or gold leaf, depending on which decal mfr you ask. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== LINKM@timken.com wrote: > List, > Are the Microscale decals listed in the Walthers catalog, for PRR steam en > gines, a correct buy? I'm sure the freight engines of the late 40's and after h > ad gold buff lettering, not dulux gold, correct? Also, do these decal sets have > numbers small enough for a number plate on the smokebox front? If anyone out t > here knows where I can get decal sets that are correct for 1940's and later fre > ight and passenger steamers, please advise. I know that decals are becoming sca > rce as manufacturers dwindle in numbers. Thanks in advance! > Matt Link > PRR T&HS #7140 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] HO scale decals Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 13:20:37 -0400 "I thought "dulux gold" and "gold buff" were the same. " No, they are not. Not to recap this topic from a while ago, Gold Buff was used before Deluxe Gold. Gold Buff was primary freight and when Deluxe came out, it went to Passenger Steam. Though, Buff lasted to the end of steam. If they have done it yet I don't know, but Microscale was forwarded information for this product to be made with the correct buff color (that was at the East Coast Hobby Show in 2001). -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Andrew S. Miller Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 12:51 PM To: LINKM@timken.com Cc: PRR-TALK@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] HO scale decals Matt, I thought "dulux gold" and "gold buff" were the same. The original was "bronze gold" or gold leaf, depending on which decal mfr you ask. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== LINKM@timken.com wrote: > List, > Are the Microscale decals listed in the Walthers catalog, for PRR steam en > gines, a correct buy? I'm sure the freight engines of the late 40's and after h > ad gold buff lettering, not dulux gold, correct? Also, do these decal sets have > numbers small enough for a number plate on the smokebox front? If anyone out t > here knows where I can get decal sets that are correct for 1940's and later fre > ight and passenger steamers, please advise. I know that decals are becoming sca > rce as manufacturers dwindle in numbers. Thanks in advance! > Matt Link > PRR T&HS #7140 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 13:52:11 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] HO scale decals Greg, Then there were three golds - right? - Bronze gold, used on passenger steam - Gold Buff, used on freight steam - Dulux (I believe its "dulux", a Dupont trade mark) Gold, replacing Bronze Gold on passenger steam. When did the change from Bronze to Dulux take place on Passenger Steam? Was Dulux Gold the the original color on early DGLE passenger diesels? Was Gold Buff the color of later diesels, freight and passenger? I have to admit to being mislead all these years by the two shades offered by Champ Decals. I am glad I made my erroneous comment and got to learn something. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." wrote: > "I thought "dulux gold" and "gold buff" were the same. " > > No, they are not. Not to recap this topic from a while ago, Gold Buff was > used before Deluxe Gold. Gold Buff was primary freight and when Deluxe came > out, it went to Passenger Steam. Though, Buff lasted to the end of steam. > > If they have done it yet I don't know, but Microscale was forwarded > information for this product to be made with the correct buff color (that > was at the East Coast Hobby Show in 2001). > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Andrew S. > Miller > Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 12:51 PM > To: LINKM@timken.com > Cc: PRR-TALK@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] HO scale decals > > Matt, > > I thought "dulux gold" and "gold buff" were the same. The original was > "bronze > gold" or gold leaf, depending on which decal mfr you ask. > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > LINKM@timken.com wrote: > > > List, > > Are the Microscale decals listed in the Walthers catalog, for PRR > steam en > > gines, a correct buy? I'm sure the freight engines of the late 40's and > after h > > ad gold buff lettering, not dulux gold, correct? Also, do these decal sets > have > > numbers small enough for a number plate on the smokebox front? If anyone > out t > > here knows where I can get decal sets that are correct for 1940's and > later fre > > ight and passenger steamers, please advise. I know that decals are > becoming sca > > rce as manufacturers dwindle in numbers. Thanks in advance! > > Matt Link > > PRR T&HS #7140 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 13:58:10 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] HO scale decals From: Jerry Britton On 10/14/02 1:52 PM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > Then there were three golds - right? > > - Bronze gold, used on passenger steam > - Gold Buff, used on freight steam > - Dulux (I believe its "dulux", a Dupont trade mark) Gold, replacing Bronze > Gold on passenger steam. > > When did the change from Bronze to Dulux take place on Passenger Steam? > Was Dulux Gold the the original color on early DGLE passenger diesels? > Was Gold Buff the color of later diesels, freight and passenger? > > I have to admit to being mislead all these years by the two shades offered by > Champ Decals. I am glad I made my erroneous comment and got to learn > something. > Tell me about it. I had no idea. I also thought "Dulux Gold" and "Gold Buff" were the same. Any documentation on this? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] HO scale decals Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 14:30:14 -0400 Prior to the passing of Jim Kelly, he talked my ear off about this. We went to the E. Coast Hobby show to talk to Microscale about this product. Jim forwarded information to Microscale and I am unaware if they produced anything yet. I will look up my notes to see if I can get the story straight on time periods. To my knowledge, Deluxe Gold/Bronze did not come out until mid 20's. Also, Futura style lettering was painted with Buff only. Again, to my recollection. I could be wrong. Correct me if I am. Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 1:58 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] HO scale decals On 10/14/02 1:52 PM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > Then there were three golds - right? > > - Bronze gold, used on passenger steam > - Gold Buff, used on freight steam > - Dulux (I believe its "dulux", a Dupont trade mark) Gold, replacing Bronze > Gold on passenger steam. > > When did the change from Bronze to Dulux take place on Passenger Steam? > Was Dulux Gold the the original color on early DGLE passenger diesels? > Was Gold Buff the color of later diesels, freight and passenger? > > I have to admit to being mislead all these years by the two shades offered by > Champ Decals. I am glad I made my erroneous comment and got to learn > something. > Tell me about it. I had no idea. I also thought "Dulux Gold" and "Gold Buff" were the same. Any documentation on this? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 14:53:39 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Railroad-Related Definitions From: Jerry Britton I was just perusing the 1945 edition of the CT1000C, looking for coal mines owned/operated by Berwind White. Seems as if most of them were on the south side of the main line (ex.: South Fork Branch). I was hoping to find some off of the Cresson Secondary or the Irvona Branch. No such luck. Anyway, I took note of the many mines that are listed in the CT1000 as "colliery" and wondered what the difference is between a mine and a colliery. Turns out, the "mine" is just the hole in the ground. The "colliery" is the mine together with the buildings on the site. I'm sure a lot of you were just waiting for me to let you know that, huh? Similarly, and I don't know the answer, what is the difference between a "bridge" and a "viaduct"? In Harrisburg, the PRR had the Cumberland Valley bridge. But the Reading line refers to the bridge as a "viaduct". The only stab in the dark I would take is that a "bridge" has its girders supported directly on the top of the piers and that a "viaduct" has arches that rest on the piers. But that would make the Rockville Bridge the Rockville Viaduct, wouldn't it? ;-) Perhaps a "viaduct" is a subset of "bridge" types? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 15:06:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad-Related Definitions On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, Jerry Britton wrote: > I was just perusing the 1945 edition of the CT1000C, looking for coal mines > owned/operated by Berwind White. Seems as if most of them were on the south > side of the main line (ex.: South Fork Branch). I was hoping to find some > off of the Cresson Secondary or the Irvona Branch. No such luck. I'll check the historical inventory of Blair and Cambria Counties from the HABS/HAER/AIHP projects when I get home; It's on my couch. I do think you're S.O.L. but several of the coal companies had strange patterns of subsidiaries and what I guess today we'd call ventures. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 15:22:12 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad-Related Definitions From: Jerry Britton On 10/14/02 3:06 PM, Derrick J Brashear (shadow@dementia.org) wrote: > On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, Jerry Britton wrote: > >> I was just perusing the 1945 edition of the CT1000C, looking for coal mines >> owned/operated by Berwind White. Seems as if most of them were on the south >> side of the main line (ex.: South Fork Branch). I was hoping to find some >> off of the Cresson Secondary or the Irvona Branch. No such luck. > > I'll check the historical inventory of Blair and Cambria Counties from the > HABS/HAER/AIHP projects when I get home; It's on my couch. Don't we all keep one on our couch? Oh, that's right, mine's on the nightstand!!! > I do think > you're S.O.L. but several of the coal companies had strange patterns of > subsidiaries and what I guess today we'd call ventures. > It had occurred to me that one might be under another name. My reason for asking, once again, is modeling. I'm buying up N scale H21a's in PRR Circle Keystone as fast as they come out. I'm sure Bowser will do the Gla in N scale as well, since it did well in HO. That would give me two schemes to purchase -- PRR Circle Keystone and Berwind. Just looking for a way to get more cars faster! I was once told by a member of the list that Berwind sold its hoppers to the PRR circa 1956. Can anyone confirm? (Just hoping it was after 1954!) If anyone cares, Berwind lives to this day... http://www.berwind.com ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 15:32:20 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad-Related Definitions Jerry: The only definition of viaduct I ever heard that made any sense -- and even so, its usage is inconsistent -- is that a viaduct crosses mostly land, while a bridge may cross land but in addition, crosses at least a respectable-sized body of water. I know, there are exceptions both ways. The best-known viaducts in Pennsylvania are Erie and DL&W structures. The 2,053-foot-long Kinzua Viaduct crosses a three- or four-foot-wide stream (I've hopped over it). And yet the name of the state park in which it's located is Kinzua Bridge State Park. Go figure. North of Scranton, Tunkhannock Viaduct is also called the Nicholson Viaduct, occasionally the Nicholson Bridge, but never Tunkhannock Bridge. Well, it's at least a starting point for trying to figure out usage patterns. Isn't the English language wonderfully consistent? Sort of like the Standard Railroad . . . oops, bad example. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ------------------------- Jerry Britton wrote: > > I was just perusing the 1945 edition of the CT1000C, looking for coal mines > owned/operated by Berwind White. Seems as if most of them were on the south > side of the main line (ex.: South Fork Branch). I was hoping to find some > off of the Cresson Secondary or the Irvona Branch. No such luck. > > Anyway, I took note of the many mines that are listed in the CT1000 as > "colliery" and wondered what the difference is between a mine and a > colliery. Turns out, the "mine" is just the hole in the ground. The > "colliery" is the mine together with the buildings on the site. > > I'm sure a lot of you were just waiting for me to let you know that, huh? > > Similarly, and I don't know the answer, what is the difference between a > "bridge" and a "viaduct"? > > In Harrisburg, the PRR had the Cumberland Valley bridge. But the Reading > line refers to the bridge as a "viaduct". > > The only stab in the dark I would take is that a "bridge" has its girders > supported directly on the top of the piers and that a "viaduct" has arches > that rest on the piers. But that would make the Rockville Bridge the > Rockville Viaduct, wouldn't it? ;-) > > Perhaps a "viaduct" is a subset of "bridge" types? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 15:25:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad-Related Definitions On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, Jerry Britton wrote: > > I'll check the historical inventory of Blair and Cambria Counties from the > > HABS/HAER/AIHP projects when I get home; It's on my couch. > > Don't we all keep one on our couch? Oh, that's right, mine's on the > nightstand!!! Well, the "Westmoreland" inventory is in my bathroom^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hlibrary. > I was once told by a member of the list that Berwind sold its hoppers to the > PRR circa 1956. Can anyone confirm? (Just hoping it was after 1954!) I think the capsule history in the front of the "extractive industries" section of that covers this; If not, one portion covers a car shop of theirs and that does. > If anyone cares, Berwind lives to this day... So does Barnes and Tucker, but they didn't have a pile of cars that Bowser makes now;-) -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 16:17:33 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad-Related Definitions Why a Duck? The dictionary seems to offer a simple definition: a viaduct is a bridge consisting of a number of short spans. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Trichtinger" Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad-Related Definitions Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 16:30:53 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" > Similarly, and I don't know the answer, what is the difference between a > "bridge" and a "viaduct"? > Perhaps a "viaduct" is a subset of "bridge" types? Per Webster's New World, that's correct. A viaduct, says the dictionary, is: (1) a long bridge consisting of a series of short concrete or masonry spans supported on piers or towers, usually to carry a road or railroad over a valley, gorge, etc. (2) a similar structure of steel girders and towers So, a viaduct's a type of bridge. Peace Kevin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] GEEP MU query (off-PRR) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 16:43:00 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00BB_01C273A0.C3043670 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, that topic was broached in PDY 6, I believe it was. I urge you all to get a copy of Ken Douglas's new book on Pennsy diesels. He has a whole chapter on the "Other Passenger Units" and points out that the Geeps were used continuously on the trains that they were purchased for up until about 1963. He details which Geeps were used where (Chicago, Williamsport, Logansport, Morrisville, and Buffalo). You have to keep focused on the fact that the PRR purchased diesels for one job, and one job only and did not have the foresight to realize that someday, the diesels would have to be used for trains other than the ones originally purchased for. The other fact is, as was pointed out by Mr. Gatwood, all the various diesel builders put different jumper cable configurations on their units. The EMDs had 17- point jumpers (I think) along with a second cable for the dynamic brake field loop. Since the passenger Geeps did not have dynamic brakes, there was no need for the field loop cable, so the thrifty PRR left it out of the specifications. The Alco fleet, on the other hand had 21 point jumpers and included the dynamic brake controls in one cable. The Southern Railway, I believe was the first railroad (or one of the first at least, SP being another) to standardize on a 27-point cable and do away with the EMD field-loop arrangement, so that they could MU anything with anything. After the Pennsy started mixing unlike makes of power, they sometimes had Y shaped cables with one pot head on one end and two heads on the other end. I am pretty sure that all the units delivered after the Alco DL-600s and the SD-9s had 27 point except the GP-9s built in 1959. Of course all the second generation power was standardized with 27 point cables. The Alco PA A units were retrofitted with db but the B units were retained for passenger service (no db added) and had trainline wires added through the carbody to accommodate the A units on either end in a 3-unit lashup. So the answer to the question, could a passenger Geep MU with a freight GP-7 on a passenger train is , "Yes" in theory, as long as the steam generator Geep was up against the train and the MU trainlines had been made compatible. I would rather doubt that such an arrangement ever existed but the opposite was quite often true, namely the passenger units being used in freight and yard switching service. I recall one night at Canton an eastbound passenger with 3 E-7's came through with two of the three steam generators down so we put the 5906, steam generator equipped Alco RS-1 with no MU whatsoever on the point, fired up the steam generator and sent it to Pittsburgh keeping the people warm! As a point of interest, one the big bugaboos of the Penn Central merger was the fact that there were no NYC units (with the exception of a handful of GP-7's) equipped with dynamic brake. The merger happened well into the second generation era when just about every unit had 27-point jumpers. Wouldn't you know it, the NYC controlled the sanders with a different pin than the PRR so as the units were converted the pot heads had a yellow stripe painted across them to indicate that they had been made "NYC" compatible!!!! Bill Volkmer -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of ELDEN GATWOOD Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 10:41 AM To: 'USMCnewdog25431@cs.com'; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] GEEP MU query (off-PRR) Hi all; Didn't Bill Volkmer and others discuss this in the PDY books? It was also later covered in more detail elsewhere. I think the big mixing (which did not include Baldwin power) began around '62 with the retrofitting of 27 point jumpers into Alco and a few FM road units. After that it was a free-for-all. All three of the three big remaining manufacturers (EMD,GE,Alco) were freely mixed. Older stuff got mixed where compatible (EMD cabs with occasional FM C-Liners; Alcos and EMDs). Before the 60's, PRR liked to keep like sets matched. Hope this helps. Elden ------=_NextPart_000_00BB_01C273A0.C3043670 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Yes, that topic was broached in PDY = 6, I believe it was.

 

I urge you all to get a copy of Ken Douglas’s new book on Pennsy = diesels.  He has a whole chapter on the = “Other Passenger Units”  and points out that the Geeps = were used continuously on the trains that they were purchased for up until about = 1963.  He details which Geeps were used where (Chicago, Williamsport, Logansport= , Morrisville, and Buffalo).

 

You have to keep focused on the = fact that the PRR  purchased diesels = for one job, and one job  only and = did not have the foresight to realize  = that someday, the diesels would have to be used for  trains other than the ones = originally purchased for.

 

The other fact is, as was pointed = out  = by Mr. Gatwood, all the various diesel builders put = different jumper cable configurations on their units.  The EMDs had 17- point jumpers (I think) along with a second cable for the dynamic brake = field loop. Since the passenger Geeps did not have = dynamic brakes, there was no need for the field loop cable, so the thrifty PRR = left it out of the specifications.  = The Alco fleet, on the other hand had 21 point jumpers = and included the dynamic brake controls in one = cable.

 

The Southern Railway, I believe was = the first railroad (or one of the first at least, SP being another) to = standardize on a 27-point cable and do away with the EMD field-loop arrangement, so = that they could MU anything with anything.  After the Pennsy started mixing = unlike makes of power, they sometimes had Y shaped cables with one pot head on one = end and two heads on the other end.  = I am pretty sure that all the units delivered after the Alco DL-600s and the = SD-9s had 27 point except the GP-9s built in 1959.  Of course all the second generation power was standardized with = 27 point cables.  The Alco PA A = units were retrofitted with db but the B units were retained for passenger service = (no db added) and had trainline wires added through = the carbody to accommodate the A units on either end = in a 3-unit lashup.

 

So the answer to the question, = could a passenger Geep MU with a freight GP-7 on a = passenger train is , “Yes” in theory, as = long as the steam generator Geep was up against the = train and the MU trainlines had been made compatible.  I would rather doubt that such = an arrangement ever existed but the opposite was quite often true, namely = the passenger units being used in freight and yard switching = service.

 

I recall one night at Canton an = eastbound passenger with 3 E-7’s came through with two of the three steam generators down so we put the 5906, steam generator equipped Alco RS-1 = with no MU whatsoever on the point, fired up the steam generator and sent it to Pittsburgh keeping the people warm!

 

As a point of interest, one the big bugaboos of the Penn Central merger was the fact that there were no NYC = units (with the exception of a handful of GP-7’s) equipped with dynamic brake.  The merger happened = well into the second generation era when just about every unit had 27-point jumpers.  Wouldn’t = you know it, the NYC controlled the sanders with a different pin than the PRR so = as the units were converted the pot heads had a yellow stripe painted across = them to indicate that they had been made “NYC” compatible!!!! =

 

 

Bill = Volkmer

 

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf = Of ELDEN GATWOOD
Sent: = Monday, October 14, = 2002 10:41 AM
To: = 'USMCnewdog25431@cs.com'; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: RE: [PRR] GEEP = MU query (off-PRR)

 

Hi = all;

Didn't Bill = Volkmer and others discuss this in the PDY books?  It was also later covered in = more detail elsewhere.  I think the big mixing (which did not include = Baldwin power) began around '62 with the retrofitting of 27 point jumpers into Alco and = a few FM road units.  After that it was a free-for-all.  All three = of the three big remaining manufacturers (EMD,GE,Alco) were freely mixed.  = Older stuff got mixed where compatible (EMD cabs with occasional FM C-Liners; = Alcos and EMDs). Before the 60's, PRR liked to keep like sets matched.  = Hope this helps.

Elden

 

------=_NextPart_000_00BB_01C273A0.C3043670-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad-Related Definitions Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 20:52:54 +0000 Well if we take the concept of a viaduct back to it's Roman origins they were used to allow water to flow at a controlled grade to a town. As such they would be stone structures used to cross valleys for the purpose of moving water and maintain a controlled grade so the term "Starucca viaduct" makes sense. Whether it crosses a body of water or not is inconsequential to the valley crossing. Sounds good anyway :-) Norm Bell > Jerry: > > The only definition of viaduct I ever heard that made any sense -- and > even so, its usage is inconsistent -- is that a viaduct crosses mostly > land, while a bridge may cross land but in addition, crosses at least a > respectable-sized body of water. I know, there are exceptions both ways. > > The best-known viaducts in Pennsylvania are Erie and DL&W structures. > The 2,053-foot-long Kinzua Viaduct crosses a three- or four-foot-wide > stream (I've hopped over it). And yet the name of the state park in > which it's located is Kinzua Bridge State Park. Go figure. > > North of Scranton, Tunkhannock Viaduct is also called the Nicholson > Viaduct, occasionally the Nicholson Bridge, but never Tunkhannock > Bridge. > > Well, it's at least a starting point for trying to figure out usage > patterns. Isn't the English language wonderfully consistent? Sort of > like the Standard Railroad . . . oops, bad example. > > > Dan Cupper > Harrisburg, Pa. > ------------------------- > > Jerry Britton wrote: > > > > I was just perusing the 1945 edition of the CT1000C, looking for coal mines > > owned/operated by Berwind White. Seems as if most of them were on the south > > side of the main line (ex.: South Fork Branch). I was hoping to find some > > off of the Cresson Secondary or the Irvona Branch. No such luck. > > > > Anyway, I took note of the many mines that are listed in the CT1000 as > > "colliery" and wondered what the difference is between a mine and a > > colliery. Turns out, the "mine" is just the hole in the ground. The > > "colliery" is the mine together with the buildings on the site. > > > > I'm sure a lot of you were just waiting for me to let you know that, huh? > > > > Similarly, and I don't know the answer, what is the difference between a > > "bridge" and a "viaduct"? > > > > In Harrisburg, the PRR had the Cumberland Valley bridge. But the Reading > > line refers to the bridge as a "viaduct". > > > > The only stab in the dark I would take is that a "bridge" has its girders > > supported directly on the top of the piers and that a "viaduct" has arches > > that rest on the piers. But that would make the Rockville Bridge the > > Rockville Viaduct, wouldn't it? ;-) > > > > Perhaps a "viaduct" is a subset of "bridge" types? > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 17:19:13 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] GEEP MU query (off-PRR) --part1_59.2317f381.2adc8ed1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Elden, It does indeed help :) I guess I will keep searching for doubles so I can MU :( BUT from what I read of your post it sounds like the PRR would have MU'd ALco units to Alco units, so my RS1, RS3, and RSD4/5 could all run together???? Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period PRRT&HS #7136 List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo --part1_59.2317f381.2adc8ed1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Elden,

It does indeed help :)  I guess I will keep searching for doubles so I can MU :(  

BUT from what I read of your post it sounds like the PRR would have MU'd ALco units to Alco units, so my RS1, RS3, and RSD4/5 could all run together????

Mike Schock
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period
PRRT&HS  #7136
List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo
--part1_59.2317f381.2adc8ed1_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Horseshoe Viaduct? Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:33:39 +0000 One of the options J. Edgar Thompson is supposed to have considered was a fill accross the valley instead of the curve. I wonder what it would have been called? Obviously not Horseshoe Viaduct. Kittaning Viaduct? Altoona Viaduct? Allegeheny Viaduct? Could be an interesting what if concept to consider. Knowing the PRR can you imagine a four track viaduct they would have built? You could probably hide behind it during a nuclear blast. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 18:15:37 -0400 From: davep Subject: [PRR] Powering/lighting Position Light Signals On one of these lists, there was discussion of powering position light signals. I stumbled on a lamp spec which may be applicable to some position light signals: 18W/10V 3 lamps gives 54 W total, 5.4A total. (There are also 25W lamps listed... 7.5A total....) Operating at reduced voltage will reduce that... (Non linearly: The resistance of the filament changes with temperature, slight drop in voltage will produce a greater than expected drop in current....) -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 19:48:23 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad-Related Definitions --part1_117.192cc0a1.2adcb1c7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/14/2002 3:30:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > My reason for asking, once again, is modeling. I'm buying up N scale H21a's > in PRR Circle Keystone as fast as they come out. I'm sure Bowser will do > the > Gla in N scale as well, since it did well in HO. That would give me two > schemes to purchase -- PRR Circle Keystone and Berwind. Just looking for a > way to get more cars faster! > > Jerry: You can probably justify C&I Gla's north of the mainline. I don't recall the interchange points off the top of my head. But you can check in an ORER. Rich Orr Rich Orr --part1_117.192cc0a1.2adcb1c7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/14/2002 3:30:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:


My reason for asking, once again, is modeling. I'm buying up N scale H21a's
in PRR Circle Keystone as fast as they come out. I'm sure Bowser will do the
Gla in N scale as well, since it did well in HO. That would give me two
schemes to purchase -- PRR Circle Keystone and Berwind. Just looking for a
way to get more cars faster!



Jerry:

You can probably justify C&I Gla's north of the mainline.  I don't recall the interchange points off the top of my head.  But you can check in an ORER.

Rich Orr

Rich Orr --part1_117.192cc0a1.2adcb1c7_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 19:57:19 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad-Related Definitions --part1_90.2d5d5975.2adcb3df_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit According to Webster's unabridged Dictionary Viaduct: A structure of considerable magnitude, usually with arches or supported on trestles, for carrying a road, as a railroad, high above the ground or water; a bridge; especially, one for crossing a valley or a gorge Bridge: 1. A structure, usually of wood, stone, brick, or iron, erected over a river or other water course, or over a chasm, railroad, etc., to make a passageway from one bank to the other. 2. Anything supported at the ends, which serves to keep some other thing from resting upon the object spanned, as in engraving, watchmaking, etc., or which forms a platform or staging over which something passes or is conveyed. 3. (Mus.) The small arch or bar at right angles to the strings of a violin, guitar, etc., serving of raise them and transmit their vibrations to the body of the instrument. 4. (Elec.) A device to measure the resistance of a wire or other conductor forming part of an electric circuit. 5. A low wall or vertical partition in the fire chamber of a furnace, for deflecting flame, etc.; -- usually called a bridge wall. A list of types of bridges then follows. It would appear that a viaduct is a type of bridge which is 1) large size and 2) high above the land/water surface it crosses. Rich Orr --part1_90.2d5d5975.2adcb3df_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit According to Webster's unabridged Dictionary

Viaduct:  A structure of considerable magnitude, usually with arches or supported on trestles, for carrying a road, as a railroad, high above the ground or water; a bridge; especially, one for crossing a valley or a gorge

Bridge: 1. A structure, usually of wood, stone, brick, or iron, erected over a river or other water course, or over a chasm, railroad, etc., to make a passageway from one bank to the other.

2. Anything supported at the ends, which serves to keep some other thing from resting upon the object spanned, as in engraving, watchmaking, etc., or which forms a platform or staging over which something passes or is conveyed.

3. (Mus.) The small arch or bar at right angles to the strings of a violin, guitar, etc., serving of raise them and transmit their vibrations to the body of the instrument.

4. (Elec.) A device to measure the resistance of a wire or other conductor forming part of an electric circuit.

5. A low wall or vertical partition in the fire chamber of a furnace, for deflecting flame, etc.; -- usually called a bridge wall.

A list of types of bridges then follows.


It would appear that a viaduct is a type of bridge which is 1) large size and  2) high above the land/water surface it crosses.

Rich Orr --part1_90.2d5d5975.2adcb3df_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 20:18:50 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Horseshoe Viaduct? From: Jerry Britton On 10/14/02 5:33 PM, "ndbprr@att.net" wrote: > One of the options J. Edgar Thompson is supposed to have considered was a fill > accross the valley instead of the curve. I wonder what it would have been > called? Obviously not Horseshoe Viaduct. Kittaning Viaduct? Altoona > Viaduct? Allegeheny Viaduct? Could be an interesting what if concept to > consider. Knowing the PRR can you imagine a four track viaduct they would > have > built? You could probably hide behind it during a nuclear blast. > It wouldn't have been the "Horseshoe Viaduct" as the horseshoe shape would not have been present. How 'bout the "Way Too Steep Viaduct"? ;-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 17:41:55 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Powering/lighting Position Light Signals --- davep <davep@quik.com> wrote: > Operating at reduced voltage will reduce that... > (Non linearly: > The resistance of the filament changes with temperature, slight > drop in voltage will produce a greater than expected drop in > current....) But doesn't the resistance of a metal filament decrease as its temperature is reduced? If so, a decrease in voltage would produce a smaller than expected decrease in current. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the resistance of an ordinary tungsten filament bulb at room temperature is about 1/10 its resistance at operating temperature. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 17:56:17 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad-Related Definitions --- Derrick J Brashear <shadow@dementia.org> wrote: > On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, Jerry Britton wrote: > > > I was just perusing the 1945 edition of the CT1000C, looking for > coal mines > > owned/operated by Berwind White. Seems as if most of them were on > the south > > side of the main line (ex.: South Fork Branch). I was hoping to > find some > > off of the Cresson Secondary or the Irvona Branch. No such luck. > > I'll check the historical inventory of Blair and Cambria Counties > from the > HABS/HAER/AIHP projects when I get home; It's on my couch. I do > think > you're S.O.L. but several of the coal companies had strange > patterns of > subsidiaries and what I guess today we'd call ventures. Look in the 1923 and 1900 CT1000's. As I recall, Berwind-White did have some low-numbered collieries in the territory north of the main line but by 1945 they had played out. I think there was also an entry for a B-W car shop near Philipsburg or Osceola or someplace in Tyrone and Clearfield country. They did have a subsidiary, Ocean Coal Co. which helps you not at all, as it operated in the area served by the South-West Branch, and of course there was the New River and Pocahontas, but that helps you even less. Note, if you haven't already, that Windber is an anagram of Berwind, which suggests who was the big cheese in that part of Cambria County. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:55:48 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Powering/lighting Position Light Signals robert netzlof wrote: > --- davep <davep@quik.com> wrote: > > Operating at reduced voltage will reduce that... > > (Non linearly: > > The resistance of the filament changes with temperature, slight > > drop in voltage will produce a greater than expected drop in > > current....) > But doesn't the resistance of a metal filament decrease as its > temperature is reduced? yep. > If so, a decrease in voltage would produce a smaller than > expected decrease in current. Oooooooops. Yer right. My bad. > I seem to recall reading somewhere that the resistance of an ordinary > tungsten filament bulb at room temperature is about 1/10 its > resistance at operating temperature. Same rule i remember and misstated.... -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 22:20:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Horseshoe Viaduct? As jerry suggested, the grade would have been steep enough to require a cable, "incline" or a train length funicular RR RR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Duane C. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad-Related Definitions Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 22:24:52 -0400 In the Spring 1988 issue of Railroad History there is an article titled The Bell's Gap Railroad and Its Successors: Seventy Years of Mountain Railroading. It states that early in its life, the Pennsylvania & North Western, which ran from Bellwood to Punxsutawney, was controlled by the Berwind White Mining Co. Charles Berwind served as the president of the line. I have a 1903 agreement of consolidation and merger from when the Pennsylvania & North Western was merged into the PRR. It makes a reference to Berwind White coal mines at the end of the Elk Run Branch near Punxsutawney. The 1923 CT1000 lists a Pump House No. 2 at Horatio belonging to the Berwind-White Coal Mining Co. Berwind-White may have also had coal mines in the Irvona area. There are streets in the town named Berwind and White. Berwind-White also had a car shop in Hollidaysburg. Duane Miller ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert netzlof" To: "Derrick J Brashear" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 8:56 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad-Related Definitions > > Look in the 1923 and 1900 CT1000's. As I recall, Berwind-White did > have some low-numbered collieries in the territory north of the main > line but by 1945 they had played out. I think there was also an entry > for a B-W car shop near Philipsburg or Osceola or someplace in Tyrone > and Clearfield country. > > They did have a subsidiary, Ocean Coal Co. which helps you not at > all, as it operated in the area served by the South-West Branch, and > of course there was the New River and Pocahontas, but that helps you > even less. > > Note, if you haven't already, that Windber is an anagram of Berwind, > which suggests who was the big cheese in that part of Cambria County. > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More > http://faith.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 22:31:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Rockville Tower-Model Boards Hello List........ Does anyone know if the model boards and interlocking machines were save from Rockville Tower prior to being torn down? Just wondering. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 22:28:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad-Related Definitions On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, robert netzlof wrote: > Note, if you haven't already, that Windber is an anagram of Berwind, > which suggests who was the big cheese in that part of Cambria County. Windber's in Somerset County, isn't it? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 22:36:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad-Related Definitions The inventory (which occasionally has errors, but typically typographical) says of Berwind-White: "In the 1960s Berwind-White sold its fleet of cars and closed its mines." Elsewhere "In 1962 Berwind-White was re-incorporated as the Berwind Company, a Philadelphia-based firm that managed the vast real estate holdings of the former mining concern." So it was probably about then. Berwind-White didn't show up in the 10 largest (coal co) employers in Cambria County until 1925 (figures provided for 1901 and 1919 also). None of the sites considered historic and owned in any way by B-W were anywhere useful to you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Duane C. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad-Related Definitions Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 22:44:01 -0400 Windber is just across the county line in Somerset County. Duane Miller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Derrick J Brashear" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 10:28 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad-Related Definitions > On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, robert netzlof wrote: > > > Note, if you haven't already, that Windber is an anagram of Berwind, > > which suggests who was the big cheese in that part of Cambria County. > > Windber's in Somerset County, isn't it? > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] Tender lettering Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 23:15:31 -0400 List, Since we have been discussing "gold, "Dulux", and "buff" and the various permutations, I know PRR went from Craw Clarendon to Futura lettering in 1938 and returned to Craw Clarendon in 1941 for the "PENNSYLVANIA" spelled out on locomotive tenders and non-steam locomotives. Somewhere between the return to Craw Clarendon and the end of steam power the length of the "PENNSYLVANIA" spelled out on tenders went from a fairly uniform size for big or small tenders to a much more extended format that was virtually the entire length of the smaller road tenders. Does anyone know when this started and when the last of the shorter road names was lengthened? Was it done by Class, or tender type, only at major overhauls, or what? In other words, what would be found if one were modeling say 1953 or Jerry's 1954? Or how about 1949? Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 23:21:48 -0700 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad-Related Definitions Hi All, >From the Oxford English Dictionary: Bridge: A structure forming or carrying a road over a river, a ravine, etc., or affording passage between two points at a height above the ground. Bridges vary in complexity from a simple plank, or a single arch, stretching from bank to bank over a stream, to an elaborate structure of architectural or engineering skill, supported by arches, piers, girders, chains, tubes, etc. I'll forego typing in the 11 subheadings and 18 sub-subheadings listed. If you really want to know email me off list. Viaduct: An elevated structure, consisting of a series of arches or spans, by means of which a railway or road is carried over a valley, road, river or marshy low-lying ground. Cross-checking in the Dictionary of Word Origins shows it is related to "duke" and "voyage". It's etymology shows it's derivation from the Latin "via" for "road" and "duct" for "to lead". Postulate: The key term delineating the difference between a bridge and a viaduct may be "series"? Respectfully, Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:25:07 +0200 From: Burkhard Sanner Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad-Related Definitions Dear Norm, you are on the right track for the definition of viaduct, looking back to the historical origins. However, the type of structure you are referring to, and which can be seen in abundance throughout the Mediterranean are, is an aquaeduct (from "aqua" for water and "ducere" for leading or forwarding). As the Romans did not trust the principle of communicating tubes that is the basis for todays water supply, and they did not have the material to make tight enough pipelines, an open channel was the only solution, and it had to be carried over any larger depressions in the ground by such an aquaeduct. Now come the Roman roads, a system spanning their imperium very much like todays Interstates (or Autobahn in my country), with a kind of motels, shopping centres etc. at suitable intervals. Just saw the remains of such structures in Turkey, and I am always fascinated about the quite modern design and engineering the Romans already had achieved! Usually that roads went down into valleys, hopped over rivers by bridges, and went up the other hill again. So a bridge spanned in the Roman sense always a river, creek etc. In some few instances the road had to be supported by vaulted spans to maintain a grade, avoid crevices in mountain slopes etc. Now the reason was not to span a river, but to lead the road along, like it was done with the water channels by aquaeducts. A road in Latin is "via", and voilá - a viaduct! So the distinction originally comes from the point of view, i.e. from building a road through rugged terrain and making a smooth way for travelling ("viaduct"), or by bridging a water flow like a river ("pons", later bridge from nordic or saxon origin). Today a viaduct is usually longer than high, has a number of spans, and is made of masonry or, in modern times, of concrete. It does not really matter what lies beneath it, just meadows, a creek, a deep canyon or whatsoever. An interesting question btw. would be the correct name of the Rockville bridge; wouldn´t it also qualify for being a viaduct? Main reason is to "bridge" the river, so that name might be justified. Yeah, I need to find a way back to the Pennsy, not to prompt an "off topic" admonition from Jerry. Let me try this one: On Roman roads, most carriages (in particular the ones from military) had a given distance from left wheels to right weels, and the roads (made of stone plates, mostly limestone) after some use showed grooves where the wheels rolled along. In ancient Roman roads found today, the distance of this grooves (the gauge?) is quite close to the standard railways gauge. There are many speculations if this fact has prompted, through standard coach builder´s practice in Britain, Robert Stephenson, etc. the standard gauge of railroads today. Isn´t it nice to imagine the Standard Railroad of the World (well, the modern successors then) still to follow a standard set forth about two Millennia ago? Regards, Burkhard Sanner ndbprr@att.net schrieb: > Well if we take the concept of a viaduct back to it's Roman origins they were > used to allow water to flow at a controlled grade to a town. As such they > would be stone structures used to cross valleys for the purpose of moving water > and maintain a controlled grade so the term "Starucca viaduct" makes sense. > Whether it crosses a body of water or not is inconsequential to the valley > crossing. Sounds good anyway :-) Norm Bell > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] GEEP MU query (off-PRR) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:05:01 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C27421.90A79600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I forgot to mention that the 5906 had egg shaped wheels at that time from spending too much time in hump service (actually flat switching) at Canton. The crew must have had one wild ride aboard that bucking bronco that night!!!! Anytime the temperature dropped below 20 degrees, all the passenger trains made a pit stop in Canton to take on water, it being half way between Pittsburgh and Crestline. I bet you guys didn't know that either! Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: ELDEN GATWOOD [mailto:ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com] Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 6:54 PM To: 'Bill Volkmer' Subject: RE: [PRR] GEEP MU query (off-PRR) Bill, Your stories just astound me! I would never have figured you'd do something like that with an RS-1, but then again, sounds like a brilliant solution to a tough problem! Once upon a time, I maintained a lot of rental equipment, and some of the things we did to keep 'em running....... Keep the stories coming! All the best from Long Beach, Elden -----Original Message----- From: Bill Volkmer [mailto:bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com] Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 1:43 PM To: 'ELDEN GATWOOD'; USMCnewdog25431@cs.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] GEEP MU query (off-PRR) Yes, that topic was broached in PDY 6, I believe it was. I urge you all to get a copy of Ken Douglas's new book on Pennsy diesels. He has a whole chapter on the "Other Passenger Units" and points out that the Geeps were used continuously on the trains that they were purchased for up until about 1963. He details which Geeps were used where (Chicago, Williamsport, Logansport, Morrisville, and Buffalo). You have to keep focused on the fact that the PRR purchased diesels for one job, and one job only and did not have the foresight to realize that someday, the diesels would have to be used for trains other than the ones originally purchased for. The other fact is, as was pointed out by Mr. Gatwood, all the various diesel builders put different jumper cable configurations on their units. The EMDs had 17- point jumpers (I think) along with a second cable for the dynamic brake field loop. Since the passenger Geeps did not have dynamic brakes, there was no need for the field loop cable, so the thrifty PRR left it out of the specifications. The Alco fleet, on the other hand had 21 point jumpers and included the dynamic brake controls in one cable. The Southern Railway, I believe was the first railroad (or one of the first at least, SP being another) to standardize on a 27-point cable and do away with the EMD field-loop arrangement, so that they could MU anything with anything. After the Pennsy started mixing unlike makes of power, they sometimes had Y shaped cables with one pot head on one end and two heads on the other end. I am pretty sure that all the units delivered after the Alco DL-600s and the SD-9s had 27 point except the GP-9s built in 1959. Of course all the second generation power was standardized with 27 point cables. The Alco PA A units were retrofitted with db but the B units were retained for passenger service (no db added) and had trainline wires added through the carbody to accommodate the A units on either end in a 3-unit lashup. So the answer to the question, could a passenger Geep MU with a freight GP-7 on a passenger train is , "Yes" in theory, as long as the steam generator Geep was up against the train and the MU trainlines had been made compatible. I would rather doubt that such an arrangement ever existed but the opposite was quite often true, namely the passenger units being used in freight and yard switching service. I recall one night at Canton an eastbound passenger with 3 E-7's came through with two of the three steam generators down so we put the 5906, steam generator equipped Alco RS-1 with no MU whatsoever on the point, fired up the steam generator and sent it to Pittsburgh keeping the people warm! As a point of interest, one the big bugaboos of the Penn Central merger was the fact that there were no NYC units (with the exception of a handful of GP-7's) equipped with dynamic brake. The merger happened well into the second generation era when just about every unit had 27-point jumpers. Wouldn't you know it, the NYC controlled the sanders with a different pin than the PRR so as the units were converted the pot heads had a yellow stripe painted across them to indicate that they had been made "NYC" compatible!!!! Bill Volkmer -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of ELDEN GATWOOD Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 10:41 AM To: 'USMCnewdog25431@cs.com'; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] GEEP MU query (off-PRR) Hi all; Didn't Bill Volkmer and others discuss this in the PDY books? It was also later covered in more detail elsewhere. I think the big mixing (which did not include Baldwin power) began around '62 with the retrofitting of 27 point jumpers into Alco and a few FM road units. After that it was a free-for-all. All three of the three big remaining manufacturers (EMD,GE,Alco) were freely mixed. Older stuff got mixed where compatible (EMD cabs with occasional FM C-Liners; Alcos and EMDs). Before the 60's, PRR liked to keep like sets matched. Hope this helps. Elden ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C27421.90A79600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I forgot to mention that the 5906 = had egg shaped wheels at that time from spending too much time in hump service = (actually flat switching) at Canton.  The crew = must have had one wild ride aboard that bucking bronco that night!!!!  Anytime the temperature dropped = below 20 degrees, all the passenger trains made a pit stop in = Canton to take on water, it being half way between = Pittsburgh and Crestline.  = I bet you guys didn’t know that either!

 

Bill = V.

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: ELDEN GATWOOD [mailto:ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com]
Sent: = Monday, October 14, = 2002 6:54 PM
To: 'Bill Volkmer'
Subject: RE: [PRR] GEEP = MU query (off-PRR)

 

Bill, Your = stories just astound me!  I would never have figured you'd do something like = that with an RS-1, but then again, sounds like a brilliant solution to a tough = problem!

Once upon a = time, I maintained a lot of rental equipment, and some of the things we did to = keep 'em running.......

Keep the stories = coming!

All the best = from Long Beach,

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Volkmer [mailto:bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com]
Sent: = Monday, October 14, 2002 1:43 PM
To: 'ELDEN GATWOOD'; USMCnewdog25431@cs.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] GEEP MU = query (off-PRR)

Yes, that topic = was broached in PDY 6, I believe it was.

 =

I urge you all = to get a copy of Ken Douglas’s new book on Pennsy diesels.  He has a whole chapter on the = “Other Passenger Units”  and = points out that the Geeps were used continuously on the trains that they were = purchased for up until about 1963.  He = details which Geeps were used where (Chicago, Williamsport, Logansport= , Morrisville, and Buffalo).

 =

You have to keep = focused on the fact that the PRR  = purchased diesels for one job, and one job  = only and did not have the foresight to realize  that someday, the diesels would have to be used for  trains other than the ones = originally purchased for.

 =

The other fact = is, as was pointed out  by Mr. = Gatwood, all the various diesel builders put different jumper cable configurations on = their units.  The EMDs had 17- = point jumpers (I think) along with a second cable for the dynamic brake field loop. Since = the passenger Geeps did not have dynamic brakes, there was no need for the = field loop cable, so the thrifty PRR left it out of the specifications.  The Alco fleet, on the other = hand had 21 point jumpers and included the dynamic brake controls in one = cable.

 =

The Southern = Railway, I believe was the first railroad (or one of the first at least, SP being = another) to standardize on a 27-point cable and do away with the EMD field-loop arrangement, so that they could MU anything with anything.  After the Pennsy started mixing = unlike makes of power, they sometimes had Y shaped cables with one pot head on one = end and two heads on the other end.  = I am pretty sure that all the units delivered after the Alco DL-600s and the SD-9s = had 27 point except the GP-9s built in 1959.  Of course all the second generation power was standardized with 27 point cables.  The Alco PA A = units were retrofitted with db but the B units were retained for passenger service = (no db added) and had trainline wires added through the carbody to accommodate = the A units on either end in a 3-unit lashup.

 =

So the answer to = the question, could a passenger Geep MU with a freight GP-7 on a passenger = train is , “Yes” in theory, as long as the steam generator Geep was = up against the train and the MU trainlines had been made compatible.  I would rather doubt that such = an arrangement ever existed but the opposite was quite often true, namely the passenger = units being used in freight and yard switching = service.

 =

I recall one = night at Canton an eastbound passenger with 3 E-7’s came through with two = of the three steam generators down so we put the 5906, steam generator equipped = Alco RS-1 with no MU whatsoever on the point, fired up the steam generator = and sent it to Pittsburgh keeping the people warm!

 =

As a point of = interest, one the big bugaboos of the Penn Central merger was the fact that there = were no NYC units (with the exception of a handful of GP-7’s) equipped = with dynamic brake.  The merger = happened well into the second generation era when just about every unit had 27-point jumpers.  Wouldn’t = you know it, the NYC controlled the sanders with a different pin than the PRR so as the = units were converted the pot heads had a yellow stripe painted across them to indicate that they had been made “NYC” compatible!!!! =

 =

 =

Bill = Volkmer

 =

 =

-----Original = Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf = Of ELDEN GATWOOD
Sent: = Monday, October 14, = 2002 10:41 AM
To: = 'USMCnewdog25431@cs.com'; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: RE: [PRR] GEEP = MU query (off-PRR)

 

Hi = all;

Didn't Bill Volkmer and others discuss this in the PDY books?  It was also = later covered in more detail elsewhere.  I think the big mixing (which = did not include Baldwin power) began around '62 with the retrofitting of 27 point = jumpers into Alco and a few FM road units.  After that it was a free-for-all.  All three of the three big remaining manufacturers (EMD,GE,Alco) were freely mixed.  Older stuff got mixed where = compatible (EMD cabs with occasional FM C-Liners; Alcos and EMDs). Before the 60's, = PRR liked to keep like sets matched.  Hope this = helps.

Elden

 

------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C27421.90A79600-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:04:42 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad-Related Definitions QUOTE: "Well if we take the concept of a viaduct back to it's Roman origins they were used to allow water to flow at a controlled grade to a town. As such they would be stone structures used to cross valleys for the purpose of moving water and maintain a controlled grade so the term "Starucca viaduct" makes sense. Whether it crosses a body of water or not is inconsequential to the valley crossing. Sounds good anyway :-) Norm Bell". Actually, stone and concrete -- one of the Roman's greatest inventions which they used extensively with stone, brick or stucco type facings. If only they had some steel rebar.... Jim McDaniel, ex-Latin student who never quite made it through civil engineering at Virginia Tech, now living in Delmarva which has NO bridges except for one really, really long one. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:16:28 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad-Related Definitions What does this refer to? [I'll check the historical inventory of Blair and Cambria Counties from the HABS/HAER/AIHP projects when I get home; It's on my couch.] The only things on my couch are dogs. Jim McDaniel, mystified in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Horseshoe Viaduct? Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 12:58:18 +0000 Maybe not. Surely he took in to account that the elevation on tne west side would have been lower. Maybe the lack of sufficient terrain to regain the lost elevation increase from the curve couldn't be found before Galitzen negating the option. > In a message dated 10/14/02 4:46:13 PM Central Daylight Time, ndbprr@att.net > writes: > > > > One of the options J. Edgar Thompson is supposed to have considered was a > > fill > > accross the valley instead of the curve. I wonder what it would have been > > called? > > Probably "Helluvahill Viaduct"! The reason for the horseshoe turn was to gain > the elevation necessary to reach the other point. A viaduct would have had to > have the same length as the curve to keep from having a grade too large to > surmount. As is, the grade was larger than they wanted on the mainline. I > don't think it would have been as neat to watch trains there if that would > have been their choice. Glad we got the curve and grades! > > Roger ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] BLI Hudsons Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 13:00:30 +0000 Anything further on their appearance date or are they being held hostage by dockworkers? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:06:22 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Powering/lighting Position Light Signals I have a copy of a graph indicating lamp voltage/ current/ brightness/life relations that I can email anyone interested. Regarding Lew Matt's post, a lamp operated at less than rated volts will consume less wattage. A variation of Ohm's Law says: P = E squared/R (and R will decrease with a drop in filament temperature). Steve Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Powering/lighting Position Light Signals From: "robert netzlof" Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 17:41:55 -0700 (PDT) --- davep <davep@quik.com> wrote: > Operating at reduced voltage will reduce that... > (Non linearly: > The resistance of the filament changes with temperature, slight > drop in voltage will produce a greater than expected drop in > current....) But doesn't the resistance of a metal filament decrease as its temperature is reduced? If so, a decrease in voltage would produce a smaller than expected decrease in current. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the resistance of an ordinary tungsten filament bulb at room temperature is about 1/10 its resistance at operating temperature. Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob ------------------------------ Subject: Re: [PRR] Powering/lighting Position Light Signals I was under the impression that a 25W lamp run at a reduced voltage increased the amps. P = E x I Lew Matt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:53:16 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Horseshoe Viaduct? All the accounts I have read of Horseshoe Curve state that the curve was used to avoid the much steeper grade that would have resulted by going straight acros. Steve Bartlett Subject: Horseshoe Viaduct? From: Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:33:39 +0000 One of the options J. Edgar Thompson is supposed to have considered was a fill accross the valley instead of the curve. I wonder what it would have been called? Obviously not Horseshoe Viaduct. Kittaning Viaduct? Altoona Viaduct? Allegeheny Viaduct? Could be an interesting what if concept to consider. Knowing the PRR can you imagine a four track viaduct they would have built? You could probably hide behind it during a nuclear blast. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:13:35 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI Hudsons From: Jerry Britton On 10/15/02 9:00 AM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > Anything further on their appearance date or are they being held hostage by > dockworkers? > I haven't heard about delays due to the port strike, but Merchandise Service received its "pro forma" (pay before shipment) invoice about two weeks ago. In the brass market, there is usually a 4-6 week time span between the pro forma invoice and delivery of product. BLI did tell its dealers that the Hudsons would be arriving in three shipments, spaced over the Oct-Dec time frame. Merchandise Service has been told that 2/3 of its orders are in the first shipment. None have arrived yet. Related: Oriental Limited Imports has a web site back online, under a new domain name: http://www.orientallimited.com/ . ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:19:32 -0400 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad-Related Definitions In a message dated 10/14/2002 7:56:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > Note, if you haven't already, that Windber is an anagram of Berwind, > which suggests who was the big cheese in that part of > Cambria County. Just for the record, Windber is not in Cambria County, PA. It is in Somerset County, PA. Barely but never the less not Cambria Co. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Powering/lighting Position Light Signals Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 8:29:25 -0500 Let's not forget about series wiring for the lamps, seems that all the talk is for parallel. Considering that there are three groups of two and a single lamp for the center, the groups could be series and accomplish the drop with a resistor or a ballast lamp unseen to accomplish the same drop for the center. Depending on the lamps used, this configuration would also increase lamp life since E and I are "shared" equally between the lamps while increasing R. > > From: Stephen Bartlett > Date: 2002/10/15 Tue AM 08:06:22 CDT > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: [PRR] Re: Powering/lighting Position Light Signals > > I have a copy of a graph indicating lamp voltage/ current/ > brightness/life relations that I can email anyone interested. > > Regarding Lew Matt's post, a lamp operated at less than rated volts will > consume less wattage. A variation of Ohm's Law says: P = E squared/R > (and R will decrease with a drop in filament temperature). > > Steve Bartlett > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Powering/lighting Position Light Signals > From: "robert netzlof" > Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 17:41:55 -0700 (PDT) > > --- davep <davep@quik.com> wrote: > > Operating at reduced voltage will reduce that... > > (Non linearly: > > The resistance of the filament changes with temperature, slight > > drop in voltage will produce a greater than expected drop in > > current....) > > But doesn't the resistance of a metal filament decrease as its > temperature is reduced? If so, a decrease in voltage would produce a > smaller than expected decrease in current. > > I seem to recall reading somewhere that the resistance of an ordinary > tungsten filament bulb at room temperature is about 1/10 its > resistance at operating temperature. > > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > ------------------------------ > Subject: Re: [PRR] Powering/lighting Position Light Signals > > I was under the impression that a 25W lamp run at a reduced voltage > increased the amps. P = E x I > > Lew Matt > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 06:29:17 -0700 Subject: [PRR] Berwind hoppers on PRR Hi Derrick & Jerry, > > I was once told by a member of the list that Berwind sold its hoppers to the > > PRR circa 1956. Can anyone confirm? (Just hoping it was after 1954!) > > I think the capsule history in the front of the "extractive industries" > section of that covers this; If not, one portion covers a car shop of > theirs and that does. See Teichmoeller's "Pennsylvania Railroad Steel Open Hopper Cars" book page 20 for a photo which I contributed for the book. It shows a Berwind hopper in PRR ownership. Date is uncertain, but definitely after 6/67. The car is still in Berwind lettering, with only the "X" of BWCX painted out. - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:30:01 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Coal Marshalling Yards From: Jerry Britton You often read of "coal marshalling yards" in layout descriptions of the Virginian, N&W, etc. These are yards at the confluence of branches where short trains of coal are staged into longer trains for transport to the cities. In looking at the main branches from Cresson (Cresson Secondary, Irvona Branch), were there similar coal marshalling yards on these branches? On the Irvona Branch, it looks likely that there may have been something at Irvona itself, as it had four branches heading out, in addition to the main branch to Cresson. Off of the Cresson Secondary, other confluence sites were at Cherry Tree, McGees, and Patton. Did any of these have coal marshalling yards? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 06:33:14 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad-Related Definitions --- SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/14/2002 7:56:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, > wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > > > Note, if you haven't already, that Windber is an anagram of > Berwind, > > which suggests who was the big cheese in that part of > > Cambria County. > > Just for the record, Windber is not in Cambria County, PA. It is > in Somerset County, PA. Barely but never the less not Cambria Co. I should have said "...in the South Fork country." or "...in that part of the state" or "...in that coal field". ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:45:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad-Related Definitions On Tue, 15 Oct 2002, James L. McDaniel wrote: > What does this refer to? [I'll check the historical inventory of Blair > and Cambria Counties from the HABS/HAER/AIHP projects when I get home; > It's on my couch.] The only things on my couch are dogs. A book. If you meant the acronynms, you phrased your question poorly :-) But, they are: Historic American Buildings Survey Historic American Engineering Record America's Industrial Heritage Project -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 06:51:03 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Powering/lighting Position Light Signals --- Stephen Bartlett <tower.op@verizon.net> wrote: > I have a copy of a graph indicating lamp voltage/ current/ > brightness/life relations that I can email anyone interested. > > Regarding Lew Matt's post, a lamp operated at less than rated volts > will > consume less wattage. A variation of Ohm's Law says: P = E > squared/R > (and R will decrease with a drop in filament temperature). Lew Matt said: > I was under the impression that a 25W lamp run at a reduced voltage > increased the amps. P = E x I Recall that in the days before rural electrification, 32 volt wind-powered systems were common. In such a system, a 50 watt bulb would draw about 1.5 amps, because P = E x I. In contrast, an ordinary 115 volt 50 watt bulb in your house or mine draws about .4 amp, because P = E x I. So, if one says that for a particular power rating, a bulb designed for use on a low voltage circuit draws more current than a high voltage bulb, one is correct. If, on the other hand one exposes a particular light bulb to a variety of voltages, less current will flow at the lower voltages, more at the higher voltages (until the ultimate nonlinearity occurs as the bulb burns out). ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:31:17 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Powering/lighting Position Light Signals > Let's not forget about series wiring for the lamps, PRR wired them in (near) Parallel. > seems that all the talk is for parallel. Considering that >there are three groups of two and a single lamp for the center, >the groups could be series and accomplish the drop with a resistor >or a ballast lamp unseen to accomplish the same drop for the >center. for display purposes... > Depending on the lamps used, this configuration would also > increase lamp life since E and I are "shared" equally between > the lamps while increasing R. Life depends (disregarding switching on off) on power in the lamp. If lit the same, they will wear out the same, whether in series on 2*V or in Parallel on V. It may be that the available power supplies make series operation more convenient. best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI Hudsons Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 07:42:00 -0700 Guys, A minor little correction here...the west coast dock problem was not a strike, but rather a lockout by management. Therefore, the shipments were being held hostage by the management, and not the workers. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:13:35 -0400 Jerry Britton wrote: > On 10/15/02 9:00 AM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) > wrote: > > > Anything further on their appearance date or are they > being held hostage by > > dockworkers? > > > I haven't heard about delays due to the port strike, > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:10:00 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Powering/lighting Position Light Signals >> I have a copy of a graph indicating lamp voltage/ current/ >> brightness/life relations that I can email anyone interested. >> Regarding Lew Matt's post, a lamp operated at less than rated >> volts will consume less wattage. A variation of Ohm's Law >> says: P = E squared/R (and R will decrease with a drop in >>filament temperature). > Lew Matt said: >>> I was under the impression that a 25W lamp run at a reduced >>> voltage increased the amps. P = E x I cf below. Amps decrease, but not as fast as might be expected. > Recall that in the days before rural electrification, 32 volt > wind-powered systems were common. In such a system, a 50 watt bulb > would draw about 1.5 amps, because P = E x I. In contrast, an > ordinary 115 volt 50 watt bulb in your house or mine draws about .4 > amp, because P = E x I. > So, if one says that for a particular power rating, a bulb designed > for use on a low voltage circuit draws more current than a high > voltage bulb, one is correct. > If, on the other hand one exposes a particular light bulb to a > variety of voltages, less current will flow at the lower voltages, > more at the higher voltages (until the ultimate nonlinearity occurs > as the bulb burns out). Yep. Lightbulb 60W 130v (where did THAT come from) Ammeter 1A fs variac 5A max. Data: Vnom Current 0 0 10 0.1 20 0.1 (1) 40 0.2 80 0.3 110 0.36 It will be observed that the current rises thruout... [1] Its a little moving iron meter. Non Linear. hard to read at lower end.... -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:37:38 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Powering/lighting Position Light Signals Change in resistance per change in voltage will be more pronounced as the filament temperature increases. Looking at your figures, doubling the voltage did not always double the current - just the point of this discussion. From 20 to 40 volts, current doubled. 2.75 times 40 volts, 110 volts, only increased the current 1.8 times over current at 40 volts. If your 130 volt lamp came from a regular store, it is probably a "long-life" lamp. Since you would be running it on a nominal 120 volt source, that voltage over-rating is part of the "secret" of longer lamp life. BTW, series connections would not have been used for real PL signals. That would put both lamps out if one failed - unless more circuit complications were added, which would most likely not have been cost effective. dwp wrote: Yep. Lightbulb 60W 130v (where did THAT come from) Ammeter 1A fs variac 5A max. Data: Vnom Current 0 0 10 0.1 20 0.1 (1) 40 0.2 80 0.3 110 0.36 It will be observed that the current rises thruout... [1] Its a little moving iron meter. Non Linear. hard to read at lower end.... -- best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Berwind hoppers on PRR Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 12:02:37 -0400 When I was working at Altoona in the late '50s, early '60s Berwind had their own shop. Didn't notice any evidence of PRR ownership at THAT time. They even bought a steam loco (saddle tanker) in 61 or so, named it "Nancy". The standard B-W GLA 50 ton hoppers were in supurb shape, whereas the PRR GLA fleet was beat to Hell. I don't ever remember seeing a Berwind hopper with PRR markings. PRR wanted nothing less than 70 tons in their fleet, post 1962 or so. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Claus Schlund Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 9:29 AM To: Jerry Britton; Derrick J Brashear Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Berwind hoppers on PRR Hi Derrick & Jerry, > > I was once told by a member of the list that Berwind sold its hoppers to the > > PRR circa 1956. Can anyone confirm? (Just hoping it was after 1954!) > > I think the capsule history in the front of the "extractive industries" > section of that covers this; If not, one portion covers a car shop of > theirs and that does. See Teichmoeller's "Pennsylvania Railroad Steel Open Hopper Cars" book page 20 for a photo which I contributed for the book. It shows a Berwind hopper in PRR ownership. Date is uncertain, but definitely after 6/67. The car is still in Berwind lettering, with only the "X" of BWCX painted out. - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Coal Marshalling Yards Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 12:32:11 -0400 "Appalachian Coal Mines and Railroads" by Thomas W. Dixon, Jr. is an excellent, inexpensive paperback book discussing in detail the relationship between coal mines railroads, collieries, marshalling yards, etc. I would suggest this reading for anyone interested in the subject. PRR is not discussed, but the N&W, C&O, and Virginian are looked at in detail. Evan gives schematic plans for a hoist house, collieries, conveyors, coal sorting houses, and all the buildings associated with the head of the mine. Excellent photographs of how coal is sifted into different sizes for different uses. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 9:30 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Coal Marshalling Yards You often read of "coal marshalling yards" in layout descriptions of the Virginian, N&W, etc. These are yards at the confluence of branches where short trains of coal are staged into longer trains for transport to the cities. In looking at the main branches from Cresson (Cresson Secondary, Irvona Branch), were there similar coal marshalling yards on these branches? On the Irvona Branch, it looks likely that there may have been something at Irvona itself, as it had four branches heading out, in addition to the main branch to Cresson. Off of the Cresson Secondary, other confluence sites were at Cherry Tree, McGees, and Patton. Did any of these have coal marshalling yards? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Coal Marshalling Yards Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 13:27:54 -0400 I would guess that Weigh Scales near Shamokin would fit into that category. A switcher would go up to Mt. Carmel and Shamokin and bring loads down after distributing the empties. The cars would be weighed and once a day a local freight would bring the loads down to Northumberland. Bill Volkmer -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr. Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 12:32 PM To: Jerry Britton; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: RE: [PRR] Coal Marshalling Yards "Appalachian Coal Mines and Railroads" by Thomas W. Dixon, Jr. is an excellent, inexpensive paperback book discussing in detail the relationship between coal mines railroads, collieries, marshalling yards, etc. I would suggest this reading for anyone interested in the subject. PRR is not discussed, but the N&W, C&O, and Virginian are looked at in detail. Evan gives schematic plans for a hoist house, collieries, conveyors, coal sorting houses, and all the buildings associated with the head of the mine. Excellent photographs of how coal is sifted into different sizes for different uses. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 9:30 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Coal Marshalling Yards You often read of "coal marshalling yards" in layout descriptions of the Virginian, N&W, etc. These are yards at the confluence of branches where short trains of coal are staged into longer trains for transport to the cities. In looking at the main branches from Cresson (Cresson Secondary, Irvona Branch), were there similar coal marshalling yards on these branches? On the Irvona Branch, it looks likely that there may have been something at Irvona itself, as it had four branches heading out, in addition to the main branch to Cresson. Off of the Cresson Secondary, other confluence sites were at Cherry Tree, McGees, and Patton. Did any of these have coal marshalling yards? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWSNRHS@aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:00:20 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Berwind hoppers on PRR --part1_80.233a326b.2addb1b4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/15/2002 11:59:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com writes: > When I was working at Altoona in the late '50s, early '60s Berwind had > their own shop. Didn't notice any evidence of PRR ownership at THAT > time. They even bought a steam loco (saddle tanker) in 61 or so, named > it "Nancy". The standard B-W GLA 50 ton hoppers were in supurb shape, > whereas the PRR GLA fleet was beat to Hell. I don't ever remember > seeing a Berwind hopper with PRR markings. PRR wanted nothing less than > 70 tons in their fleet, post 1962 or so. > > Bill V. > > The Berwind steam locomotive "Nancy" still survives at Railroader's Memorial Museum in Altoona. Also, the logo on the side of Berwind hoppers was a white square with a round hole in the center. It is my understanding that the logo represented an "all around square deal". Dave Seidel-Altoona PA Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS PRRT&HS --part1_80.233a326b.2addb1b4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/15/2002 11:59:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com writes:


When I was working at Altoona in the late '50s, early '60s Berwind had
their own shop.  Didn't notice any evidence of PRR ownership at THAT
time.  They even bought a steam loco (saddle tanker) in 61 or so, named
it "Nancy".  The standard B-W GLA 50 ton hoppers were in supurb shape,
whereas the PRR GLA fleet was beat to Hell.  I don't ever remember
seeing a Berwind hopper with PRR markings.  PRR wanted nothing less than
70 tons in their fleet, post 1962 or so.

Bill V.



The Berwind steam locomotive "Nancy" still survives at Railroader's Memorial Museum in Altoona.  Also, the logo on the side of Berwind hoppers was a white square with a round hole in the center. It is my understanding that the logo represented an "all around square deal".

Dave Seidel-Altoona PA
Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS
PRRT&HS --part1_80.233a326b.2addb1b4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Coal Marshalling Yards Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:11:43 -0400 Marshalling yards are usually not modeled with respect to the size of most layouts. Keep in mind that 100 car unit coal trains do not originate at the mine. They are created from a collection of smaller trains that were put together at the marshalling yard, a key aspect in prototype modeling. A marshalling yard switcher can keep busy for an entire operating session unto itself delivering empties, hauling away loads, and shifting cars at the mine. Marshalling yards need a switcher to make trains and mines need one for switching loads and empties, unless you put an operating winch with a cable, a kickback, and a gravity fed yard for loads. Easier animation schemes are definitely in our future with DCC. GV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bill Volkmer Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 1:28 PM To: 'Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr.'; 'Jerry Britton'; 'PRR-Talk LIST' Subject: RE: [PRR] Coal Marshalling Yards I would guess that Weigh Scales near Shamokin would fit into that category. A switcher would go up to Mt. Carmel and Shamokin and bring loads down after distributing the empties. The cars would be weighed and once a day a local freight would bring the loads down to Northumberland. Bill Volkmer -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr. Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 12:32 PM To: Jerry Britton; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: RE: [PRR] Coal Marshalling Yards "Appalachian Coal Mines and Railroads" by Thomas W. Dixon, Jr. is an excellent, inexpensive paperback book discussing in detail the relationship between coal mines railroads, collieries, marshalling yards, etc. I would suggest this reading for anyone interested in the subject. PRR is not discussed, but the N&W, C&O, and Virginian are looked at in detail. Evan gives schematic plans for a hoist house, collieries, conveyors, coal sorting houses, and all the buildings associated with the head of the mine. Excellent photographs of how coal is sifted into different sizes for different uses. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 9:30 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Coal Marshalling Yards You often read of "coal marshalling yards" in layout descriptions of the Virginian, N&W, etc. These are yards at the confluence of branches where short trains of coal are staged into longer trains for transport to the cities. In looking at the main branches from Cresson (Cresson Secondary, Irvona Branch), were there similar coal marshalling yards on these branches? On the Irvona Branch, it looks likely that there may have been something at Irvona itself, as it had four branches heading out, in addition to the main branch to Cresson. Off of the Cresson Secondary, other confluence sites were at Cherry Tree, McGees, and Patton. Did any of these have coal marshalling yards? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:48:06 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Ready To Run Red Caboose X29's From: Jerry Britton This is a Public Service Announcement... so don't read any more into it!!! In HO scale, Red Caboose makes awesome X29 kits. The details are excellent. But these kits take several hours to build. And if you need a fleet, that can take a really long time! Red Caboose has just received in READY TO RUN X29's in PRR Circle Keystone scheme. There are 12 road numbers. Retail is $26.95, but I'm sure dealers will discount. For those that prefer to build, fine, for everyone else... ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:31:14 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] My Review of Withers Vol. 7, E's & PA's In a message Andy Chch (ajc5150@insightbb.com) writes: > Minor complaint number two is a lack of photos from 1951-1954. There are > plenty of photos from builders photos to 1950, and 1955 to merger. > 1951-1954 was when a lot of interesting modifications were made, and photos > from this period would help pinpoint more exact dates of these changes. > Some of the modifications I'm thinking of are grabs above the windshields, > grabs on the "cheeks", and the EP-20 Phase II carbody modifications. I'm > not saying there aren't any photos from 1951-1954, but > there are only a > handful, mostly of EP-22's. > > > Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:37:40 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender lettering Greg asks: >Since we have been discussing "gold, "Dulux", and "buff" and the various >permutations, I know PRR went from Craw Clarendon to Futura lettering in >1938 and returned to Craw Clarendon in 1941 for the "PENNSYLVANIA" spelled >out on locomotive tenders and non-steam locomotives. Somewhere between the >return to Craw Clarendon and the end of steam power the length of the >"PENNSYLVANIA" spelled out on tenders went from a fairly uniform size for >big or small tenders to a much more extended format that was virtually the >entire length of the smaller road tenders. Does anyone know when this >started and when the last of the shorter road names was lengthened? Was it >done by Class, or tender type, only at major overhauls, or what? > >In other words, what would be found if one were modeling say 1953 or Jerry's >1954? Or how about 1949? With respect to Futura, it actually began to appear in 1935 when the first GG1s were delivered. It was specificed by Loewy who did not like the serif style font in use and wanted a more modern font. Its use spread, as noted to other locos in 1938, but rumor has it that one or more of the executives of the PRR really disliked the font, and so it was changed in 1941. Repaints of Futura lettered engines seem to have happened VERY quickly...so quickly that I am confident that a Futura lettered loco would be out of place on my 1944 layout. I do wonder if a tender or too should have a much never stripe of paint with Clarendon lettering (and a new cab nubmer)? It would be easy to do by lettering the loco, masking the number and lettering and weathering the rest of the loco. From all photogrphic evidence I have seen, the spread out lettering was applied with the 1941 application of Clarendon on tenders. Thus Futura lettered locos were relettered rapidly while some that were never given Futura may have held onto their pre-war schemes longer. In the end, photos of locos from 1941-45 are so rare, it is difficult to make any sweeping statements, but I have never seen the old style, condensed lettering or Futura lettering in a post 1941 shot. So the short answers to your questions are No, No and No! Happy Rails, Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:49:22 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] OOOPPPS Andy's Review of Withers Vol. 7, E's & PA's Sorry GIZE for the dead reply! In a message Andy Chch (ajc5150@insightbb.com) writes: > Minor complaint number two is a lack of photos from 1951-1954. There are > plenty of photos from builders photos to 1950, and 1955 to merger. > 1951-1954 was when a lot of interesting modifications were made, and photos > from this period would help pinpoint more exact dates of these changes. > Some of the modifications I'm thinking of are grabs above the windshields, > grabs on the "cheeks", and the EP-20 Phase II carbody modifications. I'm > not saying there aren't any photos from 1951-1954, but > there are only a > handful, mostly of EP-22's. > > > Andy Cich A couple of comments on the book myself as I was involved in the edit preview of the book.... Paul made it clear in the beginning of the book that he was not going to "classify" the phases and phase changes that the E-7's went through in this book. Not what I would have done but it is his book and perhaps it leaves it to someone else to expand on. I did recommend that Paul resouce some photography from the Otto Perry collection in the Denver library as there are good photos there of PRR E-7's during this period albeit mostly taken in Western Ohio. Therein you will find some clues as the the dates that many of the phase changes took place. The most commonly overlooked change by photographers, railfans and modelers is the change from louvers over the radiators (on the roof)to screening. This was done in conjunction with the airflow side venting on the carbody sides. I have to agree with you regarding the rear of the units, we need more photos, but they are out there you juat have to dig for them. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender lettering Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:52:39 -0400 Bruce, The problem is I've seen postwar shots of M1's, especially in the Chicago area, where the "coast-to-coast" tenders still had the "PENNSYLVANIA" in closely spaced letters. Perhaps, as these locomotives were built ca. 1930, they escaped the "Futura" lettering program entirely. Guess the lettering wouldn't change on a slope-back tender, anyhow, so A5 and B6sb shots would show the same lettering from the 1930's to 1950's. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 3:37 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender lettering > Greg asks: > >Since we have been discussing "gold, "Dulux", and "buff" and the various > >permutations, I know PRR went from Craw Clarendon to Futura lettering in > >1938 and returned to Craw Clarendon in 1941 for the "PENNSYLVANIA" spelled > >out on locomotive tenders and non-steam locomotives. Somewhere between the > >return to Craw Clarendon and the end of steam power the length of the > >"PENNSYLVANIA" spelled out on tenders went from a fairly uniform size for > >big or small tenders to a much more extended format that was virtually the > >entire length of the smaller road tenders. Does anyone know when this > >started and when the last of the shorter road names was lengthened? Was it > >done by Class, or tender type, only at major overhauls, or what? > > > >In other words, what would be found if one were modeling say 1953 or Jerry's > >1954? Or how about 1949? > > With respect to Futura, it actually began to appear in 1935 when the first > GG1s were delivered. It was specificed by Loewy who did not like the serif > style font in use and wanted a more modern font. Its use spread, as noted > to other locos in 1938, but rumor has it that one or more of the executives > of the PRR really disliked the font, and so it was changed in 1941. > Repaints of Futura lettered engines seem to have happened VERY quickly...so > quickly that I am confident that a Futura lettered loco would be out of > place on my 1944 layout. I do wonder if a tender or too should have a much > never stripe of paint with Clarendon lettering (and a new cab nubmer)? It > would be easy to do by lettering the loco, masking the number and lettering > and weathering the rest of the loco. From all photogrphic evidence I have > seen, the spread out lettering was applied with the 1941 application of > Clarendon on tenders. Thus Futura lettered locos were relettered rapidly > while some that were never given Futura may have held onto their pre-war > schemes longer. In the end, photos of locos from 1941-45 are so rare, it > is difficult to make any sweeping statements, but I have never seen the old > style, condensed lettering or Futura lettering in a post 1941 shot. So the > short answers to your questions are No, No and No! > > Happy Rails, > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender lettering Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 21:06:40 +0000 Speaking of tender lettering one of the recent Keystones has a T-1 lettering guide. I laughed out loud the other night when I read that the centerline of the second stripe is 7 23/32" above the centerline of the bottom one. I forget the top dimension but it was equally ludicrous. Do you suppose they had someone whose job it was to measure the centerline of the stripes and report the people who made the stripe 7 3/4" or 7 11/16" above the bottom one? :-) > Bruce, > > The problem is I've seen postwar shots of M1's, especially in the Chicago > area, where the "coast-to-coast" tenders still had the "PENNSYLVANIA" in > closely spaced letters. Perhaps, as these locomotives were built ca. 1930, > they escaped the "Futura" lettering program entirely. Guess the lettering > wouldn't change on a slope-back tender, anyhow, so A5 and B6sb shots would > show the same lettering from the 1930's to 1950's. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bruce F. Smith" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 3:37 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender lettering > > > > Greg asks: > > >Since we have been discussing "gold, "Dulux", and "buff" and the various > > >permutations, I know PRR went from Craw Clarendon to Futura lettering in > > >1938 and returned to Craw Clarendon in 1941 for the "PENNSYLVANIA" > spelled > > >out on locomotive tenders and non-steam locomotives. Somewhere between > the > > >return to Craw Clarendon and the end of steam power the length of the > > >"PENNSYLVANIA" spelled out on tenders went from a fairly uniform size for > > >big or small tenders to a much more extended format that was virtually > the > > >entire length of the smaller road tenders. Does anyone know when this > > >started and when the last of the shorter road names was lengthened? Was > it > > >done by Class, or tender type, only at major overhauls, or what? > > > > > >In other words, what would be found if one were modeling say 1953 or > Jerry's > > >1954? Or how about 1949? > > > > With respect to Futura, it actually began to appear in 1935 when the first > > GG1s were delivered. It was specificed by Loewy who did not like the > serif > > style font in use and wanted a more modern font. Its use spread, as noted > > to other locos in 1938, but rumor has it that one or more of the > executives > > of the PRR really disliked the font, and so it was changed in 1941. > > Repaints of Futura lettered engines seem to have happened VERY > quickly...so > > quickly that I am confident that a Futura lettered loco would be out of > > place on my 1944 layout. I do wonder if a tender or too should have a > much > > never stripe of paint with Clarendon lettering (and a new cab nubmer)? It > > would be easy to do by lettering the loco, masking the number and > lettering > > and weathering the rest of the loco. From all photogrphic evidence I have > > seen, the spread out lettering was applied with the 1941 application of > > Clarendon on tenders. Thus Futura lettered locos were relettered rapidly > > while some that were never given Futura may have held onto their pre-war > > schemes longer. In the end, photos of locos from 1941-45 are so rare, it > > is difficult to make any sweeping statements, but I have never seen the > old > > style, condensed lettering or Futura lettering in a post 1941 shot. So > the > > short answers to your questions are No, No and No! > > > > Happy Rails, > > Bruce > > > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > Franklin > > __ > > / \ > > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI Hudsons Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 19:30:16 -0400 Actually to be more precise, the lockout was caused by a work slowdown to protest robots replacing some jobs. The lockout was a response to a tactic that probably violated the collective bargaining agreement. Getting to the Hudson, I did see one of the "dealer models" at a hobby store. I have to admit that I was more impressed by the engine then I thought I would be. While others have expressed some reservations about the detail level, I think it is fair to put it very close to what Life-Like is giving us in their Heritage Collection. I wonder when pre-production samples of the Class A and some of there other engines will make an appearance? Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 19:44:32 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] GEEP MU query (off-PRR) In a message Bob Zoeller, Bobspf@aol.com writes: > 1. Very good question, but why discuss offline? There are a lot of issues which your question raises which it would be helpful to have more than one input: e.g., which units have MU capability, steam generators, MU at both ends, torpedo tubes, steam lines, etc.< Jeeze, that would take a minute to research but I have that info somewhere... > 2. I believe most of the steam-generator-equipped Geeps (and Alco RS-3's) had MU capability and I assume could also operate elephant-style as well as back-to-back. Am I right, list?< Well, if you had three steam-generator-equipped GP's one would have to be elephant style wouldn't it? or they all could be, sure it makes no difference. > 3. Question: do the non steam generator equipped roadswitchers have steam lines or controls to operate a steam generator in a second unit? This would tell you whether your two-unit set could be operated on a passenger train.< No they would not necessarily have steam lines to connect to the rest of the train, unless it was on the head end and the trailing unit had the steam heat equipment, then it could happen but I have to say I have never seen this combo. > 4. I believe most of the "passenger" Geeps had MU capability so use in freight lashups shouldn't be a problem.< Ture... True ...True! > 5. I look to the list for help, but I believe a minority of the passenger geeps had the torpedo tubes. Most did not.< Yes, only three and Steve Hoxie touched on this. > 6. You mention a lashup pulling a couple or three cars. A single passenger Geep could pull 8 loaded cars up Cajon Pass's 2.1% grade, much less what it could do on level ground.< Yes, one unit could do the job. > Another question would be whether an RS-3/GP7 lashup could operate a passenger train. As I said, a good and interesting question.< Yes, they could after the industry standardized the MU connection, which was just working out theAs I said, a good and interesting question. dynamic brake loop and pins. Again, I have never seen this and one good reason is that most roadswitchers equiped with stem heat equipment didn't carry the boiler capacity to heat much more than a few cars for any distance as the water capacity wasn't there. > I have a question for Lines Westers in the Chicago area. Did the passenger Geeps ever run on the "bottle" train ?< I have seen the GP's hauling the Dummies out of Chicago... I presume that this was when they were bumped on the east coast. > Bob Zoeller Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 19:50:52 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Berwind hoppers on PRR I have heard that the Berwind Hearald stood for "A SQUARE DEAL ALL THE WAY AROUND" per Richard Burg. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Powering/lighting Position Light Signals Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 20:01:41 -0400 Hello listmenbers, I was the one asking about the power supply for my PL. The model railroad transformer is out. I picked up a Radio Shack transformer with a output of 3 amps at 12.6 volts. The bulbs I`m using are stamped KP8. They came with the unit. The transformer seems to be working fine. The only question I have is the transformer seems to get a little warm when lit all night, Am I underpowered? I also want to give a big "Thank You" to all that replied. Thanks again, Ken Miller. ----- Original Message ----- From: "davep" To: ; Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 6:15 PM Subject: [PRR] Powering/lighting Position Light Signals > On one of these lists, there was discussion of powering > position light signals. I stumbled on a lamp spec which may > be applicable to some position light signals: > 18W/10V > 3 lamps gives 54 W total, 5.4A total. > (There are also 25W lamps listed... 7.5A total....) > > Operating at reduced voltage will reduce that... > (Non linearly: > The resistance of the filament changes with temperature, slight > drop in voltage will produce a greater than expected drop in > current....) > -- > best > dwp > > ...the net of a million lies... > Vernor Vinge > There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. > -me > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "dfc PRR 7002" Subject: [PRR] cab roof/tender deck Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 20:12:20 -0400 I would like to paint the cab roofs and tender decks of my K-4s, E-6s, H-9 and A-4 red. Can someone recommend the color in Scalecoat II or other non-oil based paint. I have a red/green color deficiency and would appreciate some help. Thank you in advance. DF Cramer--Teacher-Trombonist-Conductor-Historian www.geocities.com/armconband _________________________________________________________________ Unlimited Internet access -- and 2 months free!  Try MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 20:59:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Powering/lighting Position Light Signals Hello Ken What type of PL do you have? Two arm home signal or single arm automatic. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] cab roof/tender deck Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 21:58:34 -0400 DFC, Since the PRR specified a mix of 50 percent Freight Car Color and 50 percent black, why don't you use a 50/50 mix of Scalecoat II PRR Freight Car Red and Engine Black? I don't know how this would look, but it would be following the PRR's directions! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "dfc PRR 7002" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 8:12 PM Subject: [PRR] cab roof/tender deck > I would like to paint the cab roofs and tender decks of my K-4s, E-6s, H-9 > and A-4 red. Can someone recommend the color in Scalecoat II or other > non-oil based paint. I have a red/green color deficiency and would > appreciate some help. Thank you in advance. > > > > DF Cramer--Teacher-Trombonist-Conductor-Historian > www.geocities.com/armconband > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Unlimited Internet access -- and 2 months free! Try MSN. > http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 22:47:04 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Powering/lighting Position Light Signals h2466@bright.net wrote: > Hello listmenbers, I was the one asking about the power > supply for my PL. The model railroad transformer is out. > I picked up a Radio Shack transformer with a output of > 3 amps at 12.6 volts. The bulbs I`m using are stamped KP8. Off hand, I've no data on that. > They came with the unit. The transformer seems to be > working fine. The only question I have is the transformer > seems to get a little warm Hard to address, clinically, 'a little warm'. 8)>> That Said, if it can still be touched, probably OK. At a guess, its running at or near full load. Also 12.6V (if thats what its delivering) MAY be a little hot, leading to shortened lamp life. > when lit all night, Transformer lit all night, or signal. 8)>> (JUST KIDDING...) > Am I underpowered? I'd worry more about ovepowering the lamps... ============================================================ (Someone asked, off list, about the 'lamp life curves', which someone else kindly offered. Found my set....) best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] OOOPPPS Andy's Review of Withers Vol. 7, E's & PA's Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 22:48:50 -0500 Greg, I took your hint and browsed the online Otto Perry collection, and found 1 real goody. On 6/29/1951, Mr. Perry photographed 4 trains with an EP-20 on the point. (Or more correctly on that date they would still be EP-3s) Three of them appeared to be in original configuration, i.e. no extra grabs, no filter modifications, etc. A fourth, #5865, had the filter modification done to it. But it still had no extra grabs and the original numberboards. It's hard to tell from a B/W photo if it had been repainted, but it still had the number in the nose keystone. There's interesting stuff to be discovered out there. Andy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 08:26:57 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] cab roof/tender deck >DFC, > >Since the PRR specified a mix of 50 percent Freight Car Color and 50 percent >black, why don't you use a 50/50 mix of Scalecoat II PRR Freight Car Red and >Engine Black? I don't know how this would look, but it would be following >the PRR's directions! > >Gregg Mahlkov Greg, IIRC, wasn't it a bit more complicated than that? New roofs got Freight Catr Color (Special Oxide in Poly Scale), while shoppings got the 50/50 mix, and some little alarm in my head says that the mix was only for wood roofs...but I don't have that spec in front of me! As always, the discussion of paint colors is VERY tricky...in part you need to use a color in that range that looks right to you, since color photographs are often unreliable! In addition, cab roofs and tender decks were quickly covered with soot, so their color did not remain as paointed for very long at all. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 Oct 02 09:51:55 EDT From: LINKM@timken.com Subject: [PRR] Tender lettering List, I will again pose my question, which originated this thread. Are there availab le, current production, operating manufacturers, producing accurate decals for HO Scale PRR steam locomotives? Sorry to ask again Matt Link PRR T&HS #7140 ********************************************************************** This message and any attachments are intended for the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not forward, copy, print, use or disclose this communication to others; also please notify the sender by replying to this message, and then delete it from your system. The Timken Company ********************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:12:27 -0400 Subject: [PRR] The "PRR Virtual Layout" From: Jerry Britton For those that are already familiar with the "PRR Virtual Layout", the site may be worth a revisit. I have just completed a substantial revamp. There were some divisional maps missing before. All 28 divisional maps (1941 basis) are now present. I am also pleased to report that I am in talks with three new layout owners that could yield coverage for the Atglen & Susquehanna, the Elmira Branch, and the Williamsport Division main from ROCKVILLE to Northumberland. The URL is http://kc.pennsyrr.com/virtual_prr/ . Since my post last week, I've gotten a lot of inquiries about "what is the PRR Virtual Layout?" The site should explain it, so please take a look. In a nutshell... The PRR Virtual Layout is a collection of layouts that model prototypical locations with the intent of producing the "look and feel" of the actual location. Visitors should be able to quickly recognize the location modeled. Selective compression is certainly allowed, but within reason. For instance, Enola Yard could not be done with four tracks. 30th Street Station could not be done with two tracks. Etc. The PRR Virtual Layout site not only provides information and photos of the member layouts, but their coverage areas are plotted on divisional maps as well as on a master System Map. Some people aren't interested in virtual connectivity; others are. So take it for what it is: an attempt to make one's railroad larger than the walls that contain it, extending the concept made popular by Allen McClellan and his V&O. If your layout meets the criteria for participation (see the web site), please contact me for consideration. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender lettering Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:25:02 -0400 Matt, Clover House (no website, e-mail, or telephone), POBox 62, Sebastopol, CA 95473-0062 offers the following as DRY TRANSFERS in N, HO, S and O: 7784-02 "For shorter tenders, "Lines" used west of Pgh, before May 1939, Gold" 7784-03 "For shorter tenders, Pre-1939, Gold" 7784-04 "For longer tenders, pre-1939, Gold" 7784-05 "For shorter tenders, 1939-1953. Gold" 7784-06 "For longer tenders, 1939-1953, Gold" 7784-07 "For shorter tenders, 1953-on, Buff" 7784-08 "For longer tenders, 1953-on. Buff" I have not used these, and the dates are not correct, but it's certainly a greater variety than anyone else offers! Russ Clover sells his Catalog No. 10 for $5. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 9:51 AM Subject: [PRR] Tender lettering > > List, > I will again pose my question, which originated this thread. Are there availab > le, current production, operating manufacturers, producing accurate decals for > HO Scale PRR steam locomotives? Sorry to ask again > Matt Link > PRR T&HS #7140 > > > ********************************************************************** > This message and any attachments are intended for the > individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended > recipient, please do not forward, copy, print, use or disclose this > communication to others; also please notify the sender by > replying to this message, and then delete it from your system. > > The Timken Company > ********************************************************************** > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 09:27:17 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender lettering >List, >I will again pose my question, which originated this thread. Are there >availab >le, current production, operating manufacturers, producing accurate decals for >HO Scale PRR steam locomotives? Sorry to ask again >Matt Link >PRR T&HS #7140 MATT, A quick look at Champ and Microscale (both currently viable producing companies) yeilds these currently available decals: Champ (from their web site http://www.minot.com/~champ/) *Steam, short tender, bronze gold. Order EH-9S for HO Scale *Steam, short tender, dulux gold. Order EH-9SD for HO Scale *Steam, long distance tender, bronze gold lettering & numbers. Order EH-9L for HO Scale *Steam, long distance tender, dulux gold lettering & numbers. Order EH-9LD for HO Scale *Steam, medium length tender, bronze gold lettering & numbers. Order EH-248 for HO Scale *Steam, medium length tender, dulux gold lettering & numbers. Order EH-279 for HO Scale *Steam Loco Data -- Ideal for detail buffs! The many symbols in this set can be used as is and other combinations can be made by splicing. Pilot beam symbols are in white and P.R.R. initials are included in BOTH dulux gold and bronze gold. Order BRH-26 for HO Scale, BRO-26 for O Scale *Steam Loco - K4, bronze gold lettering and stripes. Order BRH-9 for HO Scale *Steam Loco - the Pennsylvania T-1, Experimental Scheme, this set covers the initial T-1 scheme, with the large circle keystone and proper striping. This set is available in Bronze Gold & Red only and is printed with our Alps printer. This set also incurs a special price of $22.00 for HO Scale and $35.00 for O Scale. Order as Pennsy T-1 Experimental and specify scale. *Steam Loco - the Pennsylvania T-1, Production Scheme, this set is available in your choice of Dulux Gold or Bronze Gold and includes proper striping and keystones for the T-1 production scheme. This set is printed with our Alps printer and incurs a special price of $15.00 for HO Scale and $25.00 for O Scale. Order as Pennsy T-1 Production Scheme, and specify scale and color. Microscale (from their web site http://www.microscale.com/) 87-66 Pennsylvania Railroad (PRR) Steam Locomotive - Gold Lettering HO Scale Decal Sheet 1910-48 Image of sheet at http://www.microscale.com/decals/8766.jpg 87-1166 Pennsylvania Railroad (PRR) Steam Locomotive - Dulux Lettering HO Scale Decal Sheet 1948-60 Image of sheet not currently available Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] GEEP query Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 07:50:07 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C27523.52001F00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi all! I finally found that nice GP summary put together by Jim Williams and distributed at one of the recent conventions (2000?) in connection with his talk on same. Fine talk, by the way! I hope we can see more in this vein. The PRR GPs with steam were only GP-7's (no GP-9's). There were no steam-equipped PRR GP-7's with dynamics. All had m.u. The steam-equipped GP-7's include: 8500-8501 with Trainphone and 4 carbody cut-outs, blt 8/52 8551-8552 with dual cab control, Trainphone and 4 cut-outs, blt 9/53 8553 with Trainphone and 4 cut-outs blt 9/53 8583-8587 with NO Trainphone, 4 cut-outs blt 8-9/53 As has been said before, only 8553 had "torpedo tubes", as all others carried the air under the frame and had the smaller fuel tank. Hope this helps, Elden - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C27523.52001F00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] GEEP query

Hi all!
I finally found that nice GP summary put together by = Jim Williams and distributed at one of the recent conventions (2000?) = in connection with his talk on same.  Fine talk, by the way!  = I hope we can see more in this vein.

The PRR GPs with steam were only GP-7's (no = GP-9's).  There were no steam-equipped PRR GP-7's with = dynamics.  All had m.u.

The steam-equipped GP-7's include:
8500-8501 with Trainphone and 4 carbody cut-outs, = blt 8/52
8551-8552 with dual cab control, Trainphone and 4 = cut-outs, blt 9/53
8553 with Trainphone and 4 cut-outs blt 9/53
8583-8587 with NO Trainphone, 4 cut-outs blt = 8-9/53
As has been said before, only 8553 had "torpedo = tubes", as all others carried the air under the frame and had the = smaller fuel tank.

Hope this helps,
Elden

-

------_=_NextPart_001_01C27523.52001F00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 11:16:03 -0400 From: Zak Subject: Re: [PRR] GEEP query This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_aPn2+eo9USG4IEJOT/Fnig) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT RE: [PRR] GEEP queryHi, List. I've read (and saved) with great interest all in input that I accidentally generated with my query about GEEPs with MUs. I want to thank everyone for their input. All of it gave me some very definite ideas about where I want to go with the layout I'm planning. It won't be large, but will be based on GP7 motive power and timed in the early to mid-50s. Again, many thanks. Zak ----- Original Message ----- From: ELDEN GATWOOD To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 10:50 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] GEEP query Hi all! I finally found that nice GP summary put together by Jim Williams and distributed at one of the recent conventions (2000?) in connection with his talk on same. Fine talk, by the way! I hope we can see more in this vein. The PRR GPs with steam were only GP-7's (no GP-9's). There were no steam-equipped PRR GP-7's with dynamics. All had m.u. The steam-equipped GP-7's include: 8500-8501 with Trainphone and 4 carbody cut-outs, blt 8/52 8551-8552 with dual cab control, Trainphone and 4 cut-outs, blt 9/53 8553 with Trainphone and 4 cut-outs blt 9/53 8583-8587 with NO Trainphone, 4 cut-outs blt 8-9/53 As has been said before, only 8553 had "torpedo tubes", as all others carried the air under the frame and had the smaller fuel tank. Hope this helps, Elden - --Boundary_(ID_aPn2+eo9USG4IEJOT/Fnig) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT RE: [PRR] GEEP query
Hi, List.
 
I've read (and saved) with great interest all in input that I accidentally generated with my query about GEEPs with MUs.
 
I want to thank everyone for their input.  All of it gave me some very definite ideas about where I want to go with the layout I'm planning.  It won't be large, but will be based on GP7 motive power and timed in the early to mid-50s.
 
Again, many thanks.
 
Zak
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 10:50 AM
Subject: RE: [PRR] GEEP query

Hi all!
I finally found that nice GP summary put together by Jim Williams and distributed at one of the recent conventions (2000?) in connection with his talk on same.  Fine talk, by the way!  I hope we can see more in this vein.

The PRR GPs with steam were only GP-7's (no GP-9's).  There were no steam-equipped PRR GP-7's with dynamics.  All had m.u.

The steam-equipped GP-7's include:
8500-8501 with Trainphone and 4 carbody cut-outs, blt 8/52
8551-8552 with dual cab control, Trainphone and 4 cut-outs, blt 9/53
8553 with Trainphone and 4 cut-outs blt 9/53
8583-8587 with NO Trainphone, 4 cut-outs blt 8-9/53
As has been said before, only 8553 had "torpedo tubes", as all others carried the air under the frame and had the smaller fuel tank.

Hope this helps,
Elden

-

--Boundary_(ID_aPn2+eo9USG4IEJOT/Fnig)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] GEEP query Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:26:10 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_02DD_01C274FE.71E1BDD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] GEEP queryHi Elden--GP-7's 8551 and 8552 also had "torpedo = tubes." Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ELDEN GATWOOD=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 9:50 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] GEEP query=20 Hi all!=20 I finally found that nice GP summary put together by Jim Williams and = distributed at one of the recent conventions (2000?) in connection with = his talk on same. Fine talk, by the way! I hope we can see more in = this vein. The PRR GPs with steam were only GP-7's (no GP-9's). There were no = steam-equipped PRR GP-7's with dynamics. All had m.u. The steam-equipped GP-7's include:=20 8500-8501 with Trainphone and 4 carbody cut-outs, blt 8/52=20 8551-8552 with dual cab control, Trainphone and 4 cut-outs, blt 9/53=20 8553 with Trainphone and 4 cut-outs blt 9/53=20 8583-8587 with NO Trainphone, 4 cut-outs blt 8-9/53=20 As has been said before, only 8553 had "torpedo tubes", as all others = carried the air under the frame and had the smaller fuel tank. Hope this helps,=20 Elden=20 -=20 ------=_NextPart_000_02DD_01C274FE.71E1BDD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] GEEP query
Hi Elden--GP-7's 8551 and 8552 also had = "torpedo=20 tubes."
 
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 ELDEN=20 GATWOOD
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, = 2002 9:50=20 AM
Subject: RE: [PRR] GEEP query =

Hi all!
I finally found = that nice GP=20 summary put together by Jim Williams and distributed at one of the = recent=20 conventions (2000?) in connection with his talk on same.  Fine = talk, by=20 the way!  I hope we can see more in this vein.

The PRR GPs with steam were only GP-7's (no = GP-9's). =20 There were no steam-equipped PRR GP-7's with dynamics.  All had=20 m.u.

The steam-equipped GP-7's include:
8500-8501 with Trainphone and 4 carbody cut-outs, blt = 8/52=20
8551-8552 with dual cab control, Trainphone and 4 = cut-outs,=20 blt 9/53
8553 with Trainphone and 4 cut-outs = blt=20 9/53
8583-8587 with NO Trainphone, 4 = cut-outs blt=20 8-9/53
As has been said before, only 8553 = had "torpedo=20 tubes", as all others carried the air under the frame and had the = smaller fuel=20 tank.

Hope this helps,
Elden

-

------=_NextPart_000_02DD_01C274FE.71E1BDD0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender lettering Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:34:02 -0500 Hi Bruce--I think what Matt is asking about hinges on the word "accurate". Microscale and Champ differ on their renditions of the same prototype colors. Which is correct? I sure don't know, but I consistently use Champ because it "looks" better in my 1954 world in my lighting. On the other hand, it doesn't matter a whole lot on a Dec that has been properly weathered. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:46:56 -0400 From: Zak Subject: [PRR] Buffalo/Western NY trackage maps c1950 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_wW+hTQq5khVq15bXk5MWgg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi, List. I don't know if anyone else but myself is interested in the Buffalo/Western New York area around the 1950 time-frame, but... ....after losing this site cue to 'puter "drop-dead" a few years ago, I found it today. It has excellent USGS maps of the entire area, dated 1950. (As an aside, one of the maps has perfect coverage of the PRR area that I and other of my "dirty, rotten scoundrel" friends used to roam around on some nights, when we were kids.) Enjoy them as I sure shall. Zak --Boundary_(ID_wW+hTQq5khVq15bXk5MWgg) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Hi, List.
 
I don't know if anyone else but myself is interested in the Buffalo/Western New York area around the 1950 time-frame, but...
 
....after losing this site cue to 'puter "drop-dead" a few years ago, I found it today.
 
It has excellent USGS maps of the entire area, dated 1950.
 
(As an aside, one of the maps has perfect coverage of the PRR area that I and other of my "dirty, rotten scoundrel" friends used to roam around on some nights, when we were kids.)
 
Enjoy them as I sure shall.
 
Zak
--Boundary_(ID_wW+hTQq5khVq15bXk5MWgg)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 13:22:57 -0400 From: Zak Subject: Re: [PRR] Buffalo/Western NY trackage maps c1950 Hi, List. I apologize for dropping the ball on this! No excuse, Sir. http://www.railfan.net/cgi-bin/trainthumb.cgi?maps/1950usgs Zak ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "Zak" Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:00 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Buffalo/Western NY trackage maps c1950 > On 10/16/02 12:46 PM, Zak (casimer.zakrzewski@us.army.mil) wrote: > > > I don't know if anyone else but myself is interested in the Buffalo/Western > > New York area around the 1950 time-frame, but... > > > > ....after losing this site cue to 'puter "drop-dead" a few years ago, I found > > it today. > > > > It has excellent USGS maps of the entire area, dated 1950. > > > > (As an aside, one of the maps has perfect coverage of the PRR area that I and > > other of my "dirty, rotten scoundrel" friends used to roam around on some > > nights, when we were kids.) > > > Care to share the URL? ;-) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 13:24:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Buffalo/Western NY trackage maps c1950 I don't see the URL. Is it perchance http://docs.unh.edu? They had PA coverage but took it offline; I know it's coming back online elsewhere soon, and there will be mostly complete coverage of DE, VA, MD, WV, OH, and some of IN also. On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, Zak wrote: > Hi, List. > > I don't know if anyone else but myself is interested in the Buffalo/Western New York area around the 1950 time-frame, but... > > ....after losing this site cue to 'puter "drop-dead" a few years ago, I found it today. > > It has excellent USGS maps of the entire area, dated 1950. > > (As an aside, one of the maps has perfect coverage of the PRR area that I and other of my "dirty, rotten scoundrel" friends used to roam around on some nights, when we were kids.) > > Enjoy them as I sure shall. > > Zak > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 13:54:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Will Subject: Re: [PRR] Buffalo/Western NY trackage maps c1950 http://www.railfan.net/maps/1950usgs/ Is the actual link to the maps....Hope you all enjoy our hard work.. Regards Will Semanchuk-Enser Blue Moon Internet Corp General Manager www.bluemoon.net Internet Access & Web Hosting www.railfan.net Railfan Network Services On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, Zak wrote: >Hi, List. > >I apologize for dropping the ball on this! No excuse, Sir. > >http://www.railfan.net/cgi-bin/trainthumb.cgi?maps/1950usgs > >Zak >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Jerry Britton" >To: "Zak" >Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:00 PM >Subject: Re: [PRR] Buffalo/Western NY trackage maps c1950 > > >> On 10/16/02 12:46 PM, Zak (casimer.zakrzewski@us.army.mil) wrote: >> >> > I don't know if anyone else but myself is interested in the >Buffalo/Western >> > New York area around the 1950 time-frame, but... >> > >> > ....after losing this site cue to 'puter "drop-dead" a few years ago, I >found >> > it today. >> > >> > It has excellent USGS maps of the entire area, dated 1950. >> > >> > (As an aside, one of the maps has perfect coverage of the PRR area that >I and >> > other of my "dirty, rotten scoundrel" friends used to roam around on >some >> > nights, when we were kids.) >> > >> Care to share the URL? ;-) >> ----------------------------------------------------------- >> Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >> Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. >> "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! >> http://kc.pennsyrr.com >> "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... >> http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com >> >> > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 14:11:51 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Buffalo/Western NY trackage maps c1950 In a message dated 10/16/02 12:33:57 PM, shadow@dementia.org writes: I don't know if anyone else but myself is interested in the Buffalo/Western New York area around the 1950 time-frame, but... ....after losing this site cue to 'puter "drop-dead" a few years ago, I found it today. It has excellent USGS maps of the entire area, dated 1950. http://www.railfan.net/cgi-bin/trainthumb.cgi?maps/1950usgs (As an aside, one of the maps has perfect coverage of the PRR area that I and other of my "dirty, rotten scoundrel" friends used to roam around on some nights, when we were kids.) ******************************** I was based in Buffalo for the Pennsy for 9 months and remember some of the territory you highlight. I remember Babcock Street and Ebenezer Yard. But I also seem to recall the Michigan Street Ore Docks and Pine Street Yard. Weren't they near Buffalo or is my memory failining again? I believe that near Pine Street yard there was and old established restuarant that served beef on weck (roastbeef on kimmelweck). They were great sandwiches and went very well with a cold beer. In fact, I think of the Buffalo operation today. On a couple of slow weekends, I hopped on an engine and rode up to Toronto, spent the weekend in my fraternity house at the U of T, and rode back on Sunday afternoon. I wonder if it is still as easy today for a person, good guy or bad guy, to move across that border as I did then. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] B-70 Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 14:25:01 -0400 Listers, Does anyone have Paul Bakenstose's notes of building a layout quality B-70 baggage car from an Athearn baggage? He gave the presentation at the 8/24/02 modeler's meeting at the Phila chapter's meeting Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 16:49:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Will Subject: Re: [PRR] Buffalo/Western NY trackage maps c1950 I dont find anything about Pine Street Yard in Buffalo...and there is a Pine Street in Niagara Falls but PRR never went to the Falls...at least not til 1968 ;-) PRR in Buffalo gets closest to Pine St at Exchange St. downtown, but I don't see any way it could have gotten closer than about 300 yards from Pine. PRR had a small yard at Exchange near Louisiana St, there is still at least one PRR concrete bumper post there. It was about 3 blocks from the end of Pine St at Seneca St near Chicago which was the other side of a dogleg across Seneca. Will Semanchuk-Enser Blue Moon Internet Corp General Manager www.bluemoon.net Internet Access & Web Hosting www.railfan.net Railfan Network Services On Wed, 16 Oct 2002 LAMAassoc@aol.com wrote: > >In a message dated 10/16/02 12:33:57 PM, shadow@dementia.org writes: > > I don't know if anyone else but myself is interested in the Buffalo/Western >New York area around the 1950 time-frame, but... > > ....after losing this site cue to 'puter "drop-dead" a few years ago, I >found it today. > > It has excellent USGS maps of the entire area, dated 1950. >http://www.railfan.net/cgi-bin/trainthumb.cgi?maps/1950usgs > > (As an aside, one of the maps has perfect coverage of the PRR area that I >and other of my "dirty, rotten scoundrel" friends used to roam around on some >nights, when we were kids.) > >******************************** > >I was based in Buffalo for the Pennsy for 9 months and remember some of the >territory you highlight. > >I remember Babcock Street and Ebenezer Yard. But I also seem to recall the >Michigan Street Ore Docks and Pine Street Yard. Weren't they near Buffalo or >is my memory failining again? > >I believe that near Pine Street yard there was and old established restuarant >that served beef on weck (roastbeef on kimmelweck). They were great >sandwiches and went very well with a cold beer. > >In fact, I think of the Buffalo operation today. On a couple of slow >weekends, I hopped on an engine and rode up to Toronto, spent the weekend in >my fraternity house at the U of T, and rode back on Sunday afternoon. I >wonder if it is still as easy today for a person, good guy or bad guy, to >move across that border as I did then. > >Regards, Marty > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 18:21:52 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender lettering Hi, I've used these, even used them on the model contest loco I brought to last year's PRRT&HS convention. They work well, but as Gregg points out, remember they are not decals! If it goes on crooked, your stuck! BTW: Russ Clover (the owner) is a very helpful guy, I have contacted him via postal mail several times and he always writes back. Good service too! Usual disclaimers apply. - Claus From: "Gregg Mahlkov" To: , Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender lettering Date sent: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:25:02 -0400 > Matt, > > Clover House (no website, e-mail, or telephone), POBox 62, Sebastopol, CA > 95473-0062 offers the following as DRY TRANSFERS in N, HO, S and O: > > 7784-02 "For shorter tenders, "Lines" used west of Pgh, before May 1939, > Gold" > 7784-03 "For shorter tenders, Pre-1939, Gold" > 7784-04 "For longer tenders, pre-1939, Gold" > 7784-05 "For shorter tenders, 1939-1953. Gold" > 7784-06 "For longer tenders, 1939-1953, Gold" > 7784-07 "For shorter tenders, 1953-on, Buff" > 7784-08 "For longer tenders, 1953-on. Buff" > > I have not used these, and the dates are not correct, but it's certainly a > greater variety than anyone else offers! Russ Clover sells his Catalog No. > 10 for $5. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 9:51 AM > Subject: [PRR] Tender lettering > > > > > > List, > > I will again pose my question, which originated this thread. Are there > availab > > le, current production, operating manufacturers, producing accurate decals > for > > HO Scale PRR steam locomotives? Sorry to ask again > > Matt Link > > PRR T&HS #7140 > > > > > > ********************************************************************** > > This message and any attachments are intended for the > > individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended > > recipient, please do not forward, copy, print, use or disclose this > > communication to others; also please notify the sender by > > replying to this message, and then delete it from your system. > > > > The Timken Company > > ********************************************************************** > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 22:05:00 -0400 From: Godfrey Hall Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender lettering Claus Schlund wrote: > They work well, but as Gregg points out, > remember they are not decals! If it goes on crooked, > your stuck! > However - - remember you can apply them to clear decal sheet, seal them, and apply as regular decals. - godfrey hall ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 22:34:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender lettering Claus, The nice thing about dry transfers is that you can make them act like decals. Just apply them onto a sheet of clear decal paper. Once applied there just treat them like decals. I done that on my G Scale cabins (also at the contest). I used a combination of CDS Transfers applied to decal sheet and regular decals to get what I needed. If applied correcly, the normal way, Tranfers are great. But you only get one shot. The downside of applying them to decal sheet is the film. But this can be overcome by apply them on a very high gloss surface and drown them in micro-sol over and over to seat the film into the finish......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 09:25:13 EDT Subject: [PRR] Don't Stand Me Still --part1_19c.a63541d.2ae01439_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List, Did the Pennsy ever use the slogan, "Don't Stand Me Still" on their box cars. A friend is using it on cars from several roads and I recall seeing it but believe it was used by only one road in the 60's - 70's era. Can anyone pin down the use of this slogan? Was it a particular road or RR industry wide? TIA, Evan Leisey --part1_19c.a63541d.2ae01439_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List,

  Did the Pennsy ever use the slogan, "Don't Stand Me Still" on their box cars.   A friend is using it on cars from several roads and I recall seeing it but believe it was used by only one road in the 60's - 70's era.

  Can anyone pin down the use of this slogan?  Was it a particular road or RR industry wide?

TIA,

Evan Leisey --part1_19c.a63541d.2ae01439_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 09:35:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Don't Stand Me Still From: Jerry Britton On 10/17/02 9:25 AM, RDG2124@aol.com (RDG2124@aol.com) wrote: > Did the Pennsy ever use the slogan, "Don't Stand Me Still" on their box cars. > A friend is using it on cars from several roads and I recall seeing it but > believe it was used by only one road in the 60's - 70's era. > > Can anyone pin down the use of this slogan? Was it a particular road or RR > industry wide? > Yes! It was applied to 500 class X29d rebuilds only, in 1955. The concept was a message from PRR management to keep the cars moving...because a still car doesn't produce income. "Don't Stand Me Still!" ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 10:38:16 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Don't Stand Me Still In a message dated 10/17/02 8:31:07 AM, RDG2124@aol.com writes: << Did the Pennsy ever use the slogan, "Don't Stand Me Still" on their box cars. A friend is using it on cars from several roads and I recall seeing it but believe it was used by only one road in the 60's - 70's era. >> Well, I thought I had an answer and then wasn't sure. I did a Google search just to confirm. My memory was again, not accurate but I did get 80 hits. It appears that some have already walked the path your friend has chosen and you may wish to suggest that he looks at Google. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Hudson River Tunnel Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:09:13 +0000 Thought this was interesting. I wonder what the original tunnels cost the PRR? Plans for new Hudson River rail tunnel move forward New Jersey Transit has entered into a long-term agreement with the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey to produce an Environmental Impact Statement for the Access to the Region’s Core Study, the centerpiece of which is building a new double-track rail tunnel under the Hudson River to augment the existing tunnels built by the Pennsylvania Railroad in 1910. The EIS is expected to cost $4.7 million. The new tunnel, which would double the number of trains operating into Pennsylvania Station New York to about 45 trains per hour, is expected to cost at least $5 billion. A Draft Environmental Impact Statement, which is expected to be completed by early 2005, will be needed to obtain federal funds. Among other ARC programs are integrating other New York Metropolitan Area rail transit services and developing a regional fare collection system. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 14:19:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Don't Stand Me Still In a message dated 10/17/02 8:46:07 AM Central Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << The concept was a message from PRR management to keep the cars moving...because a still car doesn't produce income. "Don't Stand Me Still!" >> In perfect Pennsylvania Dutch! :-) Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 14:39:36 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Don't Stand Me Still No, that would have been "Nicht mir shtill geshtanden" (phonetically misspelled, and in broken German) ;-) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/17/02 8:46:07 AM Central Daylight Time, > jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > > << The concept was a message from PRR management to keep the cars > moving...because a still car doesn't produce income. > > "Don't Stand Me Still!" >> > > In perfect Pennsylvania Dutch! :-) > > Bob Zoeller -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:14:32 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Hudson River Tunnel ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Thought this was interesting. I wonder what the original >tunnels cost the PRR? Alexander in Pictorial History... gives $115,000,000 (in 1905 Dollars) for 'everything'. > Plans for new Hudson River rail tunnel move forward > New Jersey Transit has entered into a long-term agreement > with the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey to > produce an Environmental Impact Statement for the Access > to the Region's Core Study, the centerpiece of which is > building a new double-track rail tunnel under the Hudson > River to augment the existing tunnels built by the > Pennsylvania Railroad in 1910. The EIS is expected to cost > $4.7 million. best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Don't Stand Me Still Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 18:01:10 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0121_01C27607.2CF99D00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Evan Leisey asked: Did the Pennsy ever use the slogan, "Don't Stand Me Still" on their box = cars? A friend is using it on cars from several roads and I recall = seeing it but believe it was used by only one road in the 60's - 70's = era. Can anyone pin down the use of this slogan? Was it a particular = road or RR industry wide?=20 To answer your question: - Yes - PRR only - Applied only to some Class X29D boxcars in August 1955 - Used only in conjunction with SK1b (Shadow Keystone, no "PRR", = serif-style car numbers) See Brady McGuire's boxcar lettering article in The Keystone, Vol 21 No = 2, pages 14 and 26. Ben Hom=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0121_01C27607.2CF99D00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Evan Leisey asked:
 
Did the Pennsy ever use the slogan, "Don't Stand Me Still" on their = box=20 cars?   A friend is using it on cars from several roads = and I=20 recall seeing it but believe it was used by only one road in the 60's - = 70's=20 era.  Can anyone pin down the use of this slogan?  Was it = a=20 particular road or RR industry wide?
 
To answer your question:
 
- Yes
- PRR only
- Applied only to some Class X29D boxcars in August 1955
- Used only in conjunction with SK1b (Shadow Keystone, no=20 "PRR", serif-style car numbers)
 
See Brady McGuire's boxcar lettering article in The Keystone, Vol = 21 No 2,=20 pages 14 and 26.
 
 
Ben Hom 
 ------=_NextPart_000_0121_01C27607.2CF99D00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: [PRR] Off PRR, on list & Second Request on TX PRR Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 19:03:17 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00CE_01C2760F.D9D50AC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Listers: Am I the only one with this problem. Received message from "ndbprr" re: = [PRR] Hudson River Tunnel dated 10/17 at 11:09 AM on my computer timed = at 6:20 PM - AND - message from "davep" re: same dated 10/17 at 3:14 PM = on my computer timed at 5:36 PM. ie, message sent first received last. = Or is this because of different time zones? Just for comparison, I am = preparing this at 7 PM in TX (CDT). See what time you get it. Now, to keep this Pennsy. I've recently sent a message asking if there = are Texas SPF's who would like a Pennsy Get Together. (This may or may = not lead to a PRRTHS chapter). From this list, I've rec'd 2 responses. = >From separate emails, I've rec'd about 7 or so. If there are Pennsy = people, referred to as SPF's, who live anywhere around Texas, or within = a days drive or so or wherever, let me know off-list. If and when we = get a listing of who, and where y'all live, we can try to set up a = meeting place. I don't want to set up one in the DFW area if there are = too many living in El Paso. Get the idea? And if there are SPF's in El = Paso and in Texarkana, then we need to rethink the whole idea. El Paso = is 900 miles or so from Texarkana. That's a 2 day trip. GRIN! Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF And Keep the Wheels on the Rails! PS Sent via Hotmail 10/17/02 at 7:03 PM ------=_NextPart_000_00CE_01C2760F.D9D50AC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Listers:
 
Am I the only one with this = problem. =20 Received message from "ndbprr" re: [PRR] Hudson River Tunnel dated = 10/17 at=20 11:09 AM on my computer timed at 6:20 PM =97 AND =97 message from = "davep" re:=20 same dated 10/17 at 3:14 PM on my computer timed at 5:36 = PM.  ie,=20 message sent first received last.  Or is this because of different = time=20 zones?  Just for comparison, I am preparing this at 7 PM in TX = (CDT). =20 See what time you get it.
 
Now, to keep this Pennsy. =20 I've recently sent a message asking if there are Texas SPF's who = would like=20 a Pennsy Get Together.  (This may or may not lead to a PRRTHS = chapter).=20  From this list, I've rec'd 2 responses.  From separate = emails, I've=20 rec'd about 7 or so.  If there are Pennsy people, referred to as = SPF's, who=20 live anywhere around Texas, or within a days drive or so or wherever, = let me=20 know off-list.  If and when we get a listing of who, and where = y'all live,=20 we can try to set up a meeting place.  I don't want to set up one = in the=20 DFW area if there are too many living in El Paso.  Get the = idea?  And=20 if there are SPF's in El Paso and in Texarkana, then we need to rethink = the=20 whole idea.  El Paso is 900 miles or so from Texarkana.  = That's a 2=20 day trip.  GRIN!
 
Morgan = Bilbo
Ferroequinologist
PRRTHS=20 #1204 and SPF
And Keep the Wheels on the Rails!
 
PS  Sent via Hotmail = 10/17/02 at 7:03=20 PM
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_00CE_01C2760F.D9D50AC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Charles Ring W3NU Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 20:10:28 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Don't Stand Me Still Benjamin Frank Hom wrote: > Evan Leisey asked: Did the Pennsy ever use the slogan, "Don't Stand Me > Still" on their box cars? A friend is using it on cars from several > roads and I recall seeing it but believe it was used by only one road > in the 60's - 70's era. Can anyone pin down the use of this slogan? > Was it a particular road or RR industry wide? To answer your > question: - Yes- PRR only- Applied only to some Class X29D boxcars in > August 1955- Used only in conjunction with SK1b (Shadow Keystone, no > "PRR", serif-style car numbers) See Brady McGuire's boxcar lettering > article in The Keystone, Vol 21 No 2, pages 14 and 26. Ben Hom > > I remember that slogan, and i seem to remember it was tied in to the song "Dont Fence Me In". I don't know if that tie-in was real or if either my father dreamed it up or my childish imagination created it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 20:24:15 EDT Subject: [PRR] Don't Stand Me Still --part1_197.f2b6fc3.2ae0aeaf_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The immediate and detailed responses have been overwhelming. I vaguely recalled this slogan but could not recall on whose cars. Now how to tell my buddy that only the Pennsy cars carried the slogan. Think I'll let it alone as he had the slogans custom made and has done UP, B& O and (wash my mouth out with soap) NYC box cars. The next step is to find a photo ot the X-29D cars with the slogan. Many thanks again, Evan --part1_197.f2b6fc3.2ae0aeaf_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  The immediate and detailed responses have been overwhelming.  I vaguely recalled this slogan but could not recall on whose cars.  

  Now how to tell my buddy that only the Pennsy cars carried the slogan.  Think I'll let it alone as he had the slogans custom made and has done UP, B&O and (wash my mouth out with soap) NYC box cars.

  The next step is to find a photo ot the X-29D cars with the slogan.

Many thanks again,

Evan --part1_197.f2b6fc3.2ae0aeaf_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 20:41:55 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] Don't Stand Me Still There was a song and I have heard the recording. Bennett Charles Ring W3NU wrote: > > Benjamin Frank Hom wrote: > > > Evan Leisey asked: Did the Pennsy ever use the slogan, "Don't Stand Me > > Still" on their box cars? A friend is using it on cars from several > > roads and I recall seeing it but believe it was used by only one road > > in the 60's - 70's era. Can anyone pin down the use of this slogan? > > Was it a particular road or RR industry wide? To answer your > > question: - Yes- PRR only- Applied only to some Class X29D boxcars in > > August 1955- Used only in conjunction with SK1b (Shadow Keystone, no > > "PRR", serif-style car numbers) See Brady McGuire's boxcar lettering > > article in The Keystone, Vol 21 No 2, pages 14 and 26. Ben Hom > > > > > > I remember that slogan, and i seem to remember it was tied in to the > song "Dont Fence Me In". I don't know if that tie-in was real or if > either my father dreamed it up or my childish imagination created it. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Off PRR, on list & Second Request on TX PRR Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 20:42:59 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C2761D.C7F75700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Morgan, Welcome to the joys of the internet. I have received messages two months = after they were sent . My computer logged your message in four minutes = after you sent it. PRR-talk is a LOT faster than some other "mailing = lists". I have had messages from the UK received instantly, while one = from 20 miles away took five hours (different ISP, probably went 'round = the world). Usually, SPAM moves the fastest! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: PennsyNut=20 To: PRR-Talk=20 Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 8:03 PM Subject: [PRR] Off PRR, on list & Second Request on TX PRR Hi Listers: Am I the only one with this problem. Received message from "ndbprr" = re: [PRR] Hudson River Tunnel dated 10/17 at 11:09 AM on my computer = timed at 6:20 PM - AND - message from "davep" re: same dated 10/17 at = 3:14 PM on my computer timed at 5:36 PM. ie, message sent first = received last. Or is this because of different time zones? Just for = comparison, I am preparing this at 7 PM in TX (CDT). See what time you = get it. Now, to keep this Pennsy. I've recently sent a message asking if = there are Texas SPF's who would like a Pennsy Get Together. (This may = or may not lead to a PRRTHS chapter). From this list, I've rec'd 2 = responses. From separate emails, I've rec'd about 7 or so. If there = are Pennsy people, referred to as SPF's, who live anywhere around Texas, = or within a days drive or so or wherever, let me know off-list. If and = when we get a listing of who, and where y'all live, we can try to set up = a meeting place. I don't want to set up one in the DFW area if there = are too many living in El Paso. Get the idea? And if there are SPF's = in El Paso and in Texarkana, then we need to rethink the whole idea. El = Paso is 900 miles or so from Texarkana. That's a 2 day trip. GRIN! Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF And Keep the Wheels on the Rails! PS Sent via Hotmail 10/17/02 at 7:03 PM ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C2761D.C7F75700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Morgan,
 
Welcome to the joys of the internet. I have received = messages=20 two months after they were sent . My computer logged your message in = four=20 minutes after you sent it. PRR-talk is a LOT faster than some other = "mailing=20 lists". I have had messages from the UK received instantly, while one = from 20=20 miles away took five hours (different ISP, probably went 'round the = world).=20 Usually, SPAM moves the fastest!
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 PennsyNut
Sent: Thursday, October 17, = 2002 8:03=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Off PRR, on list = &=20 Second Request on TX PRR

Hi Listers:
 
Am I the only one with this = problem. =20 Received message from "ndbprr" re: [PRR] Hudson River Tunnel = dated 10/17=20 at 11:09 AM on my computer timed at 6:20 PM =97 AND =97 message = from "davep"=20 re: same dated 10/17 at 3:14 PM on my computer timed at 5:36=20 PM.  ie, message sent first received last.  Or is this = because=20 of different time zones?  Just for comparison, I am preparing = this at 7=20 PM in TX (CDT).  See what time you get it.
 
Now, to keep this = Pennsy. =20 I've recently sent a message asking if there are Texas SPF's who = would=20 like a Pennsy Get Together.  (This may or may not lead to a = PRRTHS=20 chapter).  From this list, I've rec'd 2 responses.  From = separate=20 emails, I've rec'd about 7 or so.  If there are Pennsy people, = referred=20 to as SPF's, who live anywhere around Texas, or within a days drive or = so or=20 wherever, let me know off-list.  If and when we get a listing of = who, and=20 where y'all live, we can try to set up a meeting place.  I don't = want to=20 set up one in the DFW area if there are too many living in El = Paso.  Get=20 the idea?  And if there are SPF's in El Paso and in Texarkana, = then we=20 need to rethink the whole idea.  El Paso is 900 miles or so from=20 Texarkana.  That's a 2 day trip.  GRIN!
 
Morgan=20 Bilbo
Ferroequinologist
PRRTHS #1204 and SPF
And Keep the = Wheels on=20 the Rails!
 
PS  Sent via Hotmail = 10/17/02 at 7:03=20 PM
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C2761D.C7F75700-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 21:17:07 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Hudson River Tunnel From: GG B3 The information from William D. Middleton's publication Manhattan Gateway, New York's Pennsylvania Station indicates that by ... the time it was all over a decade and a half later the Pennsylvania would have spent 100 million dollars on the New York Extension and station alone. Improvements on the New Jersey side, the related LIRR improvements, and the joint New York Connecting Railroad project with the New Haven would bring the total cost to 160 million dollars." George Bilderback PRRT&HS # 6672 Columbus, Ohio On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:09:13 +0000 ndbprr@att.net writes: > Thought this was interesting. I wonder what the original tunnels > cost the PRR? > > Plans for new Hudson River rail tunnel move forward > > New Jersey Transit has entered into a long-term agreement with the > Port > Authority of New York and New Jersey to produce an Environmental > Impact > Statement for the Access to the Region’s Core Study, the centerpiece > of which > is building a new double-track rail tunnel under the Hudson River to > augment > the existing tunnels built by the Pennsylvania Railroad in 1910. The > EIS is > expected to cost $4.7 million. > > The new tunnel, which would double the number of trains operating > into > Pennsylvania Station New York to about 45 trains per hour, is > expected to cost > at least $5 billion. A Draft Environmental Impact Statement, which > is expected > to be completed by early 2005, will be needed to obtain federal > funds. Among > other ARC programs are integrating other New York Metropolitan Area > rail > transit services and developing a regional fare collection system. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 22:01:48 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Off PRR, on list & Second Request on TX PRR From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3117736908_93451_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable on 10/17/02 8:03 PM, PennsyNut at PennsyNut@hotmail.com wrote: Am I the only one with this problem. Received message from "ndbprr" re: [PRR] Hudson River Tunnel dated 10/17 at 11:09 AM on my computer timed at 6:20 PM =97 AND =97 message from "davep" re: same dated 10/17 at 3:14 PM on my computer timed at 5:36 PM. ie, message sent first received last. Or is this because of different time zones? Just for comparison, I am preparing this at 7 PM in TX (CDT). See what time you get it. =20 I hear of this behavior a lot from hotmail.com. Sometimes from earthlink as well. In fact, for several days last month, earthlink was bouncing all vali= d mail with a message that it was SPAM. I emailed their tech support for an explanation and I received a polite email back that their filter went amok and was reversing everything: SPAM was getting through and valid mail was not! As for things at my end, the mail server receives posts in real time. The listserv checks the e-mail server every five minutes for new posts. It then distributes it back to the mail server in real time. (There are technical reasons why I don't do it all in real time.) The mail server can distribute to 600_ PRR-talk subscribers in under five minutes...but there are always bounces for full mailboxes, technical difficulties, etc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ --MS_Mac_OE_3117736908_93451_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] Off PRR, on list & Second Request on TX PRR on 10/17/02 8:03 PM, PennsyNut at PennsyNut@hotmail.com wrote:

Am I the only one with= this problem.  Received message from "ndbprr" re: [PRR] Huds= on River Tunnel dated 10/17 at 11:09 AM on my computer timed at 6:20 PM =97 AN= D =97 message from "davep" re: same dated 10/17 at 3:14 PM on my com= puter timed at 5:36 PM.  ie, message sent first received last.  Or= is this because of different time zones?  Just for comparison, I am pr= eparing this at 7 PM in TX (CDT).  See what time you get it.

I hear of this behavior a lot from hotmail.com. Sometimes from earthlink as= well. In fact, for several days last month, earthlink was bouncing all vali= d mail with a message that it was SPAM. I emailed their tech support for an = explanation and I received a polite email back that their filter went amok a= nd was reversing everything: SPAM was getting through and valid mail was not= !

As for things at my end, the mail server receives posts in real time. The l= istserv checks the e-mail server every five minutes for new posts. It then d= istributes it back to the mail server in real time. (There are technical rea= sons why I don't do it all in real time.) The mail server can distribute to = 600_ PRR-talk subscribers in under five minutes...but there are always bounc= es for full mailboxes, technical difficulties, etc.
------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region
Modeling the PRR in September 1954
 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/

--MS_Mac_OE_3117736908_93451_MIME_Part-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 22:04:13 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Off PRR, on list & Second Request on TX PRR From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3117737053_102167_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit on 10/17/02 8:42 PM, Gregg Mahlkov at mahlkov@gtcom.net wrote: Welcome to the joys of the internet. I have received messages two months after they were sent . My computer logged your message in four minutes after you sent it. PRR-talk is a LOT faster than some other "mailing lists". I have had messages from the UK received instantly, while one from 20 miles away took five hours (different ISP, probably went 'round the world). Usually, SPAM moves the fastest! Thanks for the compliment on the speed of PRR-talk. I've been pleased myself. Not to comment against any specific list, but I am on a lot of Yahoo lists and sometimes it takes hours for a post to go through. I once made a post to the LDSIG list and it took over 24 hours. Hopefully "911" will never go Yahoo! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ --MS_Mac_OE_3117737053_102167_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] Off PRR, on list & Second Request on TX PRR on 10/17/02 8:42 PM, Gregg Mahlkov at mahlkov@gtcom.net wrote:

Welcome to the joys of the internet. I have rece= ived messages two months after they were sent . My computer logged your mess= age in four minutes after you sent it. PRR-talk is a LOT faster than some ot= her "mailing lists". I have had messages from the UK received inst= antly, while one from 20 miles away took five hours (different ISP, probably= went 'round the world). Usually, SPAM moves the fastest!

Thanks for the compliment on the speed of PRR-talk. I've been pleased mysel= f. Not to comment against any specific list, but I am on a lot of Yahoo list= s and sometimes it takes hours for a post to go through. I once made a post = to the LDSIG list and it took over 24 hours. Hopefully "911" will = never go Yahoo!
------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region
Modeling the PRR in September 1954
 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/

--MS_Mac_OE_3117737053_102167_MIME_Part-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 22:39:47 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Off PRR, on list & Second Request on TX PRR >>Am I the only one with this problem. Received message from >> "ndbprr" re: [PRR] Hudson River Tunnel dated 10/17 at >> 11:09 AM on my computer timed at 6:20 PM -- AND -- message >> from "davep" re: same dated 10/17 at 3:14 PM on my computer >> timed at 5:36 PM. ie, message sent first received last. Several things come into play here. The protocols for mail handling DO NOT gurantee ordered delivery of messages. Messages can travel varied routes to varied estinations arrive with differnt offsets. If one gets 'stuck' in a node along the way, it gets held, saved, resent, later. (other protocols try to guarantee ordered delivery.) Also, time stamp, in general, is from oroginating system. If that has a clock misset, then it an APPEAR that time warp is involved. (one contributor to PRR lists had his time set two months int he past for weeks... Someone else i was swapping mail with was set 10 minutes off. Once, MY machine had daylight savings time misset (right value, wrong time zone), someone pointed it out & i fixed it up....) >> Or is this because of different time zones? That can be involved. In Theory, IF all the mailers are 'right' it gets sorted out. >> Just for comparison, I am preparing this at 7 PM in TX (CDT). >> See what time you get it. 8:03 PM, EDT, which is about right... > I hear of this behavior a lot from hotmail.com. Sometimes > from earthlink as well. In fact, for several days last month, > earthlink was bouncing all valid mail with a message that it > was SPAM. I emailed their tech support for an explanation > and I received a polite email back that their filter went amok > and was reversing everything: SPAM was getting through > and valid mail was not! ISP nodes can hang up mail... Generating delays. > As for things at my end, the mail server receives posts in real time. > The listserv checks the e-mail server every five minutes for new posts. > It then distributes it back to the mail server in real time. (There are > technical reasons why I don't do it all in real time.) The mail server > can distribute to 600_ PRR-talk subscribers in under five minutes...but > there are always bounces for full mailboxes, technical difficulties, etc. best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Don't Stand Me Still Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 22:43:33 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C2762E.9F9C77C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Evan Leisey wrote: The next step is to find a photo of the X-29D cars with the slogan. First, lose the dash in the car class unless you're talking about the = leased N&W Class H-2A hoppers. (At least a few Class X43A boxcars came = from the builders with a car class of "X-43A," but that's just the tip = of the iceberg concerning the X43 subclasses, a story that still needs = to be sorted out and told.) Second, photos of these cars are common because of the slogan - in fact, = I'd like to see a Class X29D boxcar without the slogan! Here's a = summary of some of the available photos out there: PRR 24168, John Harris, Philadelphia PA, 5/5/1966, The Keystone, Vol 21 = No 2, p 26 PRR 24270, F. B. King/Dick Kuelbs collection, Tampa FL, 1957, PRR Color = Guide Vol 1, p 73 PRR 24018, Paul Winters, PRR Color Guide Vol 2, p 36 PRR 24115, Don Ball collection, Lawrence KS, 12/1955, PRR Color Guide = Vol 3, p 52 PRR 24255, Arthur Mitchell, Barre MA, c. 8/1955, Dust Jacket Front/p 52 PRR 24295, Charles Winters collection, c. 8/1955 PRR 23960, Col. Chet McCoid/Bob's Photos, Potomac Yard, Alexandria VA, = 9/1968 (Negative FPRR82) PRR 24086, Col. Chet McCoid/Bob's Photos, Glen Cove NY, 1/21/56 Bob's Photos 37 Spring St Ansonia CT 06401 Ben Hom ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C2762E.9F9C77C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Evan Leisey wrote:
The next step is to find a photo of the X-29D cars with the = slogan.
 
First, lose the dash in the car class unless you're talking about = the=20 leased N&W Class H-2A hoppers.  (At least a few Class X43A = boxcars=20 came from the builders with a car class of "X-43A," but that's just = the tip=20 of the iceberg concerning the X43 subclasses, a story that still needs = to be=20 sorted out and told.)
 
Second, photos of these cars are common because of the slogan - in = fact,=20 I'd like to see a Class X29D boxcar without the slogan!  = Here's a=20 summary of some of the available photos out there:
 
PRR 24168, John Harris, Philadelphia PA, 5/5/1966, The = Keystone, Vol=20 21 No 2, p 26
PRR 24270, F. B. King/Dick Kuelbs collection, Tampa FL, 1957, PRR = Color=20 Guide Vol 1, p 73
PRR 24018, Paul Winters, PRR Color Guide Vol 2, p 36
PRR 24115, Don Ball collection, Lawrence KS, 12/1955, PRR Color = Guide Vol=20 3, p 52
PRR 24255,  Arthur Mitchell, Barre MA, c. 8/1955, Dust = Jacket=20 Front/p 52
PRR 24295, Charles Winters collection, c. 8/1955
PRR 23960, Col. Chet McCoid/Bob's Photos, Potomac Yard, Alexandria = VA,=20 9/1968 (Negative FPRR82)
PRR 24086, Col. Chet McCoid/Bob's Photos, Glen Cove NY, = 1/21/56
 
Bob's Photos
37 Spring St
Ansonia CT 06401
 
 
Ben Hom
------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C2762E.9F9C77C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 22:53:40 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Hudson River Tunnel GG B3 wrote: > The information from William D. Middleton's publication Manhattan > Gateway, New York's Pennsylvania Station indicates that by ... the time > it was all over a decade and a half later the Pennsylvania would have > spent 100 million dollars on the New York Extension and station alone. > Improvements on the New Jersey side, the related LIRR improvements, and > the joint New York Connecting Railroad project with the New Haven would > bring the total cost to 160 million dollars." Tend to concur. On any project this complex, a range of costs will be found in a range of sources. Getting from $115M to $160 by adding in the NY Connecting, etc, seems plausible... best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "David Luciano" Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg Railroad photo Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 23:22:47 -0400 Hi Bill, This is an early picture at the Strasburg Railroad before the current station buildings were constructed. The Shay you see in the background is part of the Railroad Musuem of PA collection. It is sitting on one of the tracks parallel to Rt 741 & across from Strasburg Railroad. The locomotive collection sat outside on these tracks before the Musuem building was constructed. There is an aerial photograph of the locomotive collection sitting outside on these tracks in an early publication of the Milepost put out by the Friends of the Railroad Museum. Also in the background behind the PRR D16 is Strasburg Railroad's PRR ND caboose & behind that is their gas powered Lancaster, Southern & Oxford doodlebug. Dave Luciano Strasburg Model Railroad Club ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Lane To: PRR Talk Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 10:53 PM Subject: [PRR] Strasburg Railroad photo > Hi All, > > In my usual obsessive Ebay searches for all things PRR, I came upon this > photo of the Strasburg Railroad ex-PRR D-16. > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=725145833 The photo did > not become interesting to me until I noticed that there was a SHAY in the > background. Since a Shay is a little far off the PRR tracks, please reply to > me with what you may know about it. > > BTW, I do not know the seller. > > Bill > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 22:24:38 -0500 (Central Daylight Time) From: "Dick Taylor" Subject: Re: [PRR] Hudson River Tunnel Any one have any idea what 160 million in 19 ought whatever dollars would be today? They might be getting a real bargain at a couple of billion. Regards, Dick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "David Luciano" Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg Railroad photo Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 23:35:37 -0400 Forgive my typing The doodlebug I have listed below should be Lancaster, Oxford, & Southern Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: David Luciano To: Bill Lane Cc: PRR-Talk Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 11:22 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg Railroad photo > Hi Bill, > > This is an early picture at the Strasburg Railroad before the current > station buildings were > constructed. The Shay you see in the background is part of the Railroad > Musuem of PA > collection. It is sitting on one of the tracks parallel to Rt 741 & across > from Strasburg Railroad. > The locomotive collection sat outside on these tracks before the Musuem > building was > constructed. There is an aerial photograph of the locomotive collection > sitting outside > on these tracks in an early publication of the Milepost put out by the > Friends of the > Railroad Museum. > > Also in the background behind the PRR D16 is Strasburg Railroad's PRR ND > caboose > & behind that is their gas powered Lancaster, Southern & Oxford doodlebug. > > > Dave Luciano > Strasburg Model Railroad Club > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Lane > To: PRR Talk > Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 10:53 PM > Subject: [PRR] Strasburg Railroad photo > > > > Hi All, > > > > In my usual obsessive Ebay searches for all things PRR, I came upon this > > photo of the Strasburg Railroad ex-PRR D-16. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=725145833 The photo > did > > not become interesting to me until I noticed that there was a SHAY in the > > background. Since a Shay is a little far off the PRR tracks, please reply > to > > me with what you may know about it. > > > > BTW, I do not know the seller. > > > > Bill > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 22:53:15 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Strasburg Railroad photo Hi All, In my usual obsessive Ebay searches for all things PRR, I came upon this photo of the Strasburg Railroad ex-PRR D-16. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=725145833 The photo did not become interesting to me until I noticed that there was a SHAY in the background. Since a Shay is a little far off the PRR tracks, please reply to me with what you may know about it. BTW, I do not know the seller. Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Hudson River Tunnel Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 01:29:15 -0400 According to the inflation calculator at http://www.westegg.com/inflation/ (Don't know how accurate it is...) 105 million in 1905 is about 2.2 billion today! Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of davep Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 4:15 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Hudson River Tunnel ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Thought this was interesting. I wonder what the original >tunnels cost the PRR? Alexander in Pictorial History... gives $115,000,000 (in 1905 Dollars) for 'everything'. > Plans for new Hudson River rail tunnel move forward > New Jersey Transit has entered into a long-term agreement > with the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey to > produce an Environmental Impact Statement for the Access > to the Region's Core Study, the centerpiece of which is > building a new double-track rail tunnel under the Hudson > River to augment the existing tunnels built by the > Pennsylvania Railroad in 1910. The EIS is expected to cost > $4.7 million. best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 00:09:01 -0700 From: Steve B Subject: Re: [PRR] Hudson River Tunnel There are several inflation conversion web sites. http://www.cjr.org/resources/inflater.asp Features an easy to use online convertor. http://www.orst.edu/Dept/pol_sci/fac/sahr/sahr.htm Has more info than you'd ever want to know and conversion tables you can download. http://www.lospadrescounty.net/et/inflation.html Displays conversion factors you can use. You can use google.com or any search engine to look for others. Oh, the answer is that $160,000,000 1910 era dollars is equivalent to somewhere between 2.9 and 3.2 billion dollars in today's money. Steve Beals Los Angeles "Dick Taylor" wrote: >Any one have any idea what 160 million in 19 ought whatever dollars would be >today? They might be getting a real bargain at a couple of billion. >Regards, >Dick > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 08:08:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Don't Stand Me Still On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, Bennett Levin wrote: > There was a song and I have heard the recording. As have I... probably at Railroader's Memorial Mseum in Altoona, because I can't think where else I've been recently that I would have heard it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 08:14:08 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Don't Stand Me Still From: Jerry Britton On 10/18/02 8:08 AM, Derrick J Brashear (shadow@dementia.org) wrote: > On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, Bennett Levin wrote: > >> There was a song and I have heard the recording. > > As have I... probably at Railroader's Memorial Mseum in Altoona, because I > can't think where else I've been recently that I would have heard it. > I've seen this for sale a few times on eBay. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Hudson River Tunnel Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:46:41 +0000 That pretty much sums up the difference between public and private efforts. The government can do it for twice as much and twice the time. > There are several inflation conversion web sites. > > http://www.cjr.org/resources/inflater.asp > Features an easy to use online convertor. > > http://www.orst.edu/Dept/pol_sci/fac/sahr/sahr.htm > Has more info than you'd ever want to know and conversion tables you > can download. > > http://www.lospadrescounty.net/et/inflation.html > Displays conversion factors you can use. > > You can use google.com or any search engine to look for others. > > Oh, the answer is that $160,000,000 1910 era dollars is equivalent to > somewhere between 2.9 and 3.2 billion dollars in today's money. > > Steve Beals > Los Angeles > > "Dick Taylor" wrote: > > >Any one have any idea what 160 million in 19 ought whatever dollars would be > >today? They might be getting a real bargain at a couple of billion. > >Regards, > >Dick > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:45:11 EDT Subject: [PRR] X29D in SK1b without Don't Stand Me Still --part1_38.2fe8acf6.2ae1a2a7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/18/02 1:20:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Second, photos of these cars are common because of the slogan - in fact, = > I'd like to see a Class X29D boxcar without the slogan! Here's a = > summary of some of the available photos out there: > > PRR 24168, John Harris, Philadelphia PA, 5/5/1966, The Keystone, Vol 21 = > No 2, p 26 > PRR 24270, F. B. King/Dick Kuelbs collection, Tampa FL, 1957, PRR Color = > Guide Vol 1, p 73 > PRR 24018, Paul Winters, PRR Color Guide Vol 2, p 36 > PRR 24115, Don Ball collection, Lawrence KS, 12/1955, PRR Color Guide = > Vol 3, p 52 > PRR 24255, Arthur Mitchell, Barre MA, c. 8/1955, Dust Jacket Front/p 52 > PRR 24295, Charles Winters collection, c. 8/1955 > PRR 23960, Col. Chet McCoid/Bob's Photos, Potomac Yard, Alexandria VA, = > 9/1968 (Negative FPRR82) > PRR 24086, Col. Chet McCoid/Bob's Photos, Glen Cove NY, 1/21/56 > > Bob's Photos > 37 Spring St > Ansonia CT 06401 > > > Ben Hom > Ben, Thanks for the listing. If you want to see X29D's not in DSS, see page 26 of Summer 1988 Keystone, where Brady uses one with and one without (26194, a PRR photo credited to Chuck Blardone collection). Also see page 30 of the Dec 1983 Keystone, part of an article by John F. Harris, Sr., which shows 24477. Not really sure where the 500 "DSS" were numbered, but they were as low as 24018 and as high as 24270. Judging from your comment, then, the DSS range was at least 23960-24270. Then 24477 (a September 1955 rebuild) and up presumably didn't have the DSS. Rick Tipton --part1_38.2fe8acf6.2ae1a2a7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/18/02 1:20:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Second, photos of these cars are common because of the slogan - in fact, =
I'd like to see a Class X29D boxcar without the slogan!  Here's a =
summary of some of the available photos out there:

PRR 24168, John Harris, Philadelphia PA, 5/5/1966, The Keystone, Vol 21 =
No 2, p 26
PRR 24270, F. B. King/Dick Kuelbs collection, Tampa FL, 1957, PRR Color =
Guide Vol 1, p 73
PRR 24018, Paul Winters, PRR Color Guide Vol 2, p 36
PRR 24115, Don Ball collection, Lawrence KS, 12/1955, PRR Color Guide =
Vol 3, p 52
PRR 24255,  Arthur Mitchell, Barre MA, c. 8/1955, Dust Jacket Front/p 52
PRR 24295, Charles Winters collection, c. 8/1955
PRR 23960, Col. Chet McCoid/Bob's Photos, Potomac Yard, Alexandria VA, =
9/1968 (Negative FPRR82)
PRR 24086, Col. Chet McCoid/Bob's Photos, Glen Cove NY, 1/21/56

Bob's Photos
37 Spring St
Ansonia CT 06401


Ben Hom


Ben,

Thanks for the listing.  If you want to see X29D's not in DSS, see page 26 of Summer 1988 Keystone, where Brady uses one with and one without (26194, a PRR photo credited to Chuck Blardone collection).  Also see page 30 of the Dec 1983 Keystone,  part of an article by John F. Harris, Sr., which shows 24477.

Not really sure where the 500 "DSS" were numbered, but they were as low as 24018 and as high as 24270.  Judging from your comment, then, the DSS range was at least 23960-24270.  Then 24477 (a September 1955 rebuild) and up presumably didn't have the DSS.

Rick Tipton
 --part1_38.2fe8acf6.2ae1a2a7_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] X29D in SK1b without Don't Stand Me Still Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 17:21:51 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_009D_01C276CA.D8C29F60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rick Tipton wrote: If you want to see X29D's not in DSS, see page 26 of Summer 1988 = Keystone, where Brady uses one with and one without (26194, a PRR photo = credited to Chuck Blardone collection). <> Not really sure where the 500 "DSS" were numbered, but they were as low = as 24018 and as high as 24270. Judging from your comment, then, the DSS = range was at least 23960-24270. Then 24477 (a September 1955 rebuild) = and up presumably didn't have the DSS. Rick, thanks for the tip - I had that issue opened to that page to get = the car number of the DSMS car and totally missed that photo, which, of = course, was right above the one I referenced! Concur with your = assessment of the number range and cutoff date of the DSMS cars. Ben Hom ------=_NextPart_000_009D_01C276CA.D8C29F60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Rick Tipton = wrote:

If you want to see X29D's not in DSS, see page 26 of Summer = 1988=20 Keystone, where Brady uses one with and one without (26194, a PRR photo = credited=20 to Chuck Blardone collection).  <<snip>>
 
Not really sure where the 500 "DSS" were numbered, but they were as = low as=20 24018 and as high as 24270.  Judging from your comment, then, the = DSS range=20 was at least 23960-24270.  Then 24477 (a September 1955 rebuild) = and up=20 presumably didn't have the DSS.
 
Rick, thanks for the tip - I had that issue opened to that page to = get the=20 car number of the DSMS car and totally missed that photo, which, of = course, was=20 right above the one I referenced!  Concur with your assessment of = the=20 number range and cutoff date of the DSMS cars.
 
 
Ben Hom

 ------=_NextPart_000_009D_01C276CA.D8C29F60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 22:24:13 -0400 From: "Troy M. Snyder" Subject: Re: [PRR] Don't Stand Me Still Bennett Levin wrote: > > There was a song and I have heard the recording. I have a video that includes the song- A company film from the late 50's I believe.. The song is sung as the credits roll.. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 22:40:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Don't Stand Me Still Jerry & List............ The song "Don't Stand Me Still" can be heard on the "PRR Power-Vol 4" video tape by Railroad Video Productions. A lot of PRR fans have this tape and don't realize the song is at the end. Maybe that's where you heard it. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Charles Ring W3NU Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 23:07:33 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Don't Stand Me Still zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > Jerry & List............ > > The song "Don't Stand Me Still" can be heard on the "PRR > Power-Vol 4" video tape by Railroad Video Productions. A lot of PRR fans > have this tape and don't realize the song is at the end. Maybe that's > where you heard it. > > Dave > Is it, as I faintly recall, based on the song "Dont Fence Me In"? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 23:48:02 -0400 From: IK3 Subject: Re: [PRR] Don't Stand Me Still zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > > Jerry & List............ > > The song "Don't Stand Me Still" can be heard on the "PRR > Power-Vol 4" video tape by Railroad Video Productions. A lot of PRR fans > have this tape and don't realize the song is at the end. Maybe that's > where you heard it. That's the one. -- Yrs., Ike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Randy Williamson" Subject: [PRR] Interesting Operation Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 23:19:35 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0176_01C276FC.D2EAE200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Browsing through the Eastern Region Employee Timetable and under Freight = Train Operations they have the following rule: Movements Over Firing Range - Frankford Arsenal 1155-A23. (Phila. Div.) Before entering Frankford Arsenal from the = Naught track, movements must stop and obtain permission from guard = stationed at gate. Movements must not be made over firing range while red flag at range = target is displayed or the red blinker lights are operating at range = target or Proof House. Randy http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/HOME.h= tm ------=_NextPart_000_0176_01C276FC.D2EAE200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Browsing through the Eastern Region = Employee=20 Timetable and under Freight Train Operations they have the following=20 rule:
 
Movements Over Firing Range = - Frankford=20 Arsenal
1155-A23. (Phila. = Div.) =20 Before entering Frankford Arsenal from the Naught track, = movements must=20 stop and obtain permission from guard stationed at = gate.
    Movements must = not be made=20 over firing range while red flag at range target is displayed or the red = blinker=20 lights are operating at range target or Proof = House.
 
Randy
http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSche= dules/HOME.htm
------=_NextPart_000_0176_01C276FC.D2EAE200-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Randy Williamson" Subject: [PRR] Updates to my website Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 02:05:43 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C27714.07D228E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable After a long hiatus due to the terminal illness of my wife, I have = started to update my website. Making it easier to navigate was the = first to be finished. Will be adding new information to the website in = the coming weeks. Randy Williamson http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/HOME.h= tm ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C27714.07D228E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
After a long hiatus due to the terminal = illness of my wife, I have started to update my website.  = Making it=20 easier to navigate was the first to be finished. Will be adding new = information=20 to the website in the coming weeks.
 
Randy Williamson
http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSche= dules/HOME.htm
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C27714.07D228E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 03:27:19 -0700 From: Subject: [PRR] RE(PRR)B70 Gentlemen, Recently Chris Chaney asked if anyone here had the notes for building a layout quality B70 from that old stand by, the Athearn baggage. I have yet to see any responses, and would like to do the kitbash as well. Was there a response (which I missed), if so please include me in the loop. Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 06:50:23 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] phosphorous bronze strips Hi, Does anyone know where I can get phosphorous bronze strips or sheets approx. .008 to .020 thick? Please reply to billlane@comcast.net Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 06:59:06 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Car Builders Cyclopedia Hi All, Does anyone know what year the Car Builders Cyclopedia 19th edition is? Please reply to billlane@comcast.net Thank you Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 07:48:16 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Car Builders' Cyclopedia, other editions? I listed the publication dates of only the 1st through 19th editions because the local library happens to have the 19th edition. If someone has or has access to a more recent edition, would he please post the dates of the 20th through whatever editions? And if, on the way to your Car Builders' Cyclopedia collection you stumble over a pile of CT1000's, remember there are still some holes in that bibliography. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 08:14:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Sawicki Subject: Re: [PRR] X29D in SK1b without Don't Stand Me Still List- has any company sold an HO kit or RTR of the X29D with this paint scheme?? TIA --- RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/18/02 1:20:55 AM Eastern > Daylight Time, > PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > > > Second, photos of these cars are common because of > the slogan - in fact, = > > I'd like to see a Class X29D boxcar without the > slogan! Here's a = > > summary of some of the available photos out there: > > > > PRR 24168, John Harris, Philadelphia PA, 5/5/1966, > The Keystone, Vol 21 = > > No 2, p 26 > > PRR 24270, F. B. King/Dick Kuelbs collection, > Tampa FL, 1957, PRR Color = > > Guide Vol 1, p 73 > > PRR 24018, Paul Winters, PRR Color Guide Vol 2, p > 36 > > PRR 24115, Don Ball collection, Lawrence KS, > 12/1955, PRR Color Guide = > > Vol 3, p 52 > > PRR 24255, Arthur Mitchell, Barre MA, c. 8/1955, > Dust Jacket Front/p 52 > > PRR 24295, Charles Winters collection, c. 8/1955 > > PRR 23960, Col. Chet McCoid/Bob's Photos, Potomac > Yard, Alexandria VA, = > > 9/1968 (Negative FPRR82) > > PRR 24086, Col. Chet McCoid/Bob's Photos, Glen > Cove NY, 1/21/56 > > > > Bob's Photos > > 37 Spring St > > Ansonia CT 06401 > > > > > > Ben Hom > > > > Ben, > > Thanks for the listing. If you want to see X29D's > not in DSS, see page 26 of > Summer 1988 Keystone, where Brady uses one with and > one without (26194, a PRR > photo credited to Chuck Blardone collection). Also > see page 30 of the Dec > 1983 Keystone, part of an article by John F. > Harris, Sr., which shows 24477. > > Not really sure where the 500 "DSS" were numbered, > but they were as low as > 24018 and as high as 24270. Judging from your > comment, then, the DSS range > was at least 23960-24270. Then 24477 (a September > 1955 rebuild) and up > presumably didn't have the DSS. > > Rick Tipton > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Randy Williamson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Interesting Operation Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 10:23:55 -0500 I wonder if the crews had hazardous duty pay. Randy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Car Builders' Cyclopedia, other editions? Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 10:58:40 -0500 Sweet Old Bob asked-- > > If someone has or has access to a more recent edition, would he > please post the dates of the 20th through whatever editions? > 20th edition 1957 Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton" Subject: RE: [PRR] phosphorous bronze strips Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 17:09:42 +0100 ~Does anyone know where I can get phosphorous bronze strips or sheets ~approx. ~.008 to .020 thick? http://www.lyonindustries.com/catalog/phosphor_bronze_shim.html Aidrian "He that but looketh on a plate of ham and eggs to lust after it, hath already committed breakfast with it in his heart." C. S. Lewis --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.404 / Virus Database: 228 - Release Date: 15/10/2002 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 13:39:25 -0400 Subject: RE: [PRR] phosphorous bronze strips A good source of supply for this sort of thing is very hard to find out about: Craftsman Specialty Supply, 6567 Forty Mile Point, Rogers City, Michigan 49779. I believe they are still in business, after something like 40 years; but they never seem to advertise or have a Web presence. For many years they didn't reissue their catalog, telling people to use the old catalogs! But a year or so ago I wrote them and they sent Catalog No. 10. In it, you can find: Phosphor Bronze Sheet, spring temper, .006, .012, .020 in 6x6 and 6x12 sheets; price is $1.54 to $6.24, from the smallest to the largest. I have a piece of this stuff (.006) I bought maybe 20 years ago, and I am still nibbling at it to create electrical contacts. Years ago I used the stuff to make sliding shoes to contact the rails to improve locomotive pickup; I cut tiny bits of silver off of a genuine coin silver dime, which is also lasting a long time, to make the actual contact, soldered at the end of the phosphor bronze strip. They also have a wide range of metal and wood scratchbuilding items, and sell numbered drills individually. Phone is 517-734-3184. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] X29D in SK1b without Don't Stand Me Still Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 14:54:02 -0400 Chris Sawicki asked: List - has any company sold an HO kit or RTR of the X29D with this paint scheme?? TIA MDC offered the DSMS scheme in the mid 1990s on their AAR boxcar, but the only thing that it has in common with the prototype is that it's a steel boxcar. The only accurate HO scale kits depicting Class X29 rebuilds are Sunshine U1.1-1.3 (released 1992 but long discontinued), but these are Class X29B rebuilds which have different ends and roof. To build an accurate Class X29D boxcar, follow Greg Martin's article on page 24 of the August 1991 Mainline Modeler with the following changes: - Use Branchline No 1500 (40 ft AAR Boxcar, 8 ft Door). Use the R+3/4 late Improved Dreadnaught ends, diagonal panel roof, and Youngstown doors (the Branchline undecs come with parts for all roof, end, and door variations). Of course, you can still use the Front Range kit that Greg used if you still have one. - Do not assemble the roof flush to the body. Leave a small gap to simulate the "overhanging" appearance of the roof. - The recently released Microscale 87-1201 (PRR 40 ft Boxcars Classes X29D, X31A, X37A, X37B, X43A) takes care of the lettering. Middle Division HBX-1 (SK, Class X37 & X43) and HBY-1 (slogans) will also cover the lettering if you have issues with thin film decals. Basically, you'll need to remove the kit's side sill and fabricate new ones including frame supports under each rivet line to represent the "inset" appearance of the original X29 underframe. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 06:59:06 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Car Builders Cyclopedia Hi All, Does anyone know what year the Car Builders Cyclopedia 19th edition is? Please reply to billlane@comcast.net Thank you Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Plan to Sell a Home? http://us.click.yahoo.com/J2SnNA/y.lEAA/jd3IAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 19:56:10 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] phosphorous bronze strips In a message dated 10/19/02 12:40:39 PM Central Daylight Time, bobsin@nac.net writes: << They also have a wide range of metal and wood scratchbuilding items, and sell numbered drills individually. >> They also supply No-Ox, for track cleaning. A few drops'll do ya!. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 18:22:14 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] phosphorous bronze strips Hi, You might try Clover House. I believe he carried this in his catalog. - Claus Date sent: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 06:50:23 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] phosphorous bronze strips To: S Scale List , PRR Talk , PRR Modeling > Hi, > > Does anyone know where I can get phosphorous bronze strips or sheets approx. > .008 to .020 thick? > > Please reply to billlane@comcast.net > > Thanks > Bill > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 21:53:16 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] SK1b "Don't Stand Me Still" In a message dated 10/19/02 11:15:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, casawicki2@yahoo.com writes: > List- has any company sold an HO kit or RTR of the > X29D with this paint scheme?? TIA Varney had this PRR scheme on their boxcar (a WW2 generic box I believe), and for some years now MDC has been selling their HO single door 40' shell with it as stock number 1042. Of course, not only is the MDC car nothing like the Pennsy car, but they are using YELLOW lettering for the slogan. Therein lies a tale. I never saw but one X29D with DSMS -- I'm not sure if I have a slide. It's lettering looked white. For many years, I said "there were no yellow DSMS slogans". However, recently, I have seen some color photos where the slogan appears a different tint than the other stencil paste on the car. It's not a really REEFER yellow, but it has weathered slightly different from white. So far as I know, there's no PRR company documentation on this phenomenon -- the arrangement drawing for this is in the Pennsylvania Railroad Compendium Vol 1 from Middle Division, but I can't see evidence that yellow lettering was called for. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/jd3IAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 21:53:16 EDT Subject: [PRR] SK1b "Don't Stand Me Still" --part1_1a6.a8df19c.2ae3668c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/19/02 11:15:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, casawicki2@yahoo.com writes: > List- has any company sold an HO kit or RTR of the > X29D with this paint scheme?? TIA Varney had this PRR scheme on their boxcar (a WW2 generic box I believe), and for some years now MDC has been selling their HO single door 40' shell with it as stock number 1042. Of course, not only is the MDC car nothing like the Pennsy car, but they are using YELLOW lettering for the slogan. Therein lies a tale. I never saw but one X29D with DSMS -- I'm not sure if I have a slide. It's lettering looked white. For many years, I said "there were no yellow DSMS slogans". However, recently, I have seen some color photos where the slogan appears a different tint than the other stencil paste on the car. It's not a really REEFER yellow, but it has weathered slightly different from white. So far as I know, there's no PRR company documentation on this phenomenon -- the arrangement drawing for this is in the Pennsylvania Railroad Compendium Vol 1 from Middle Division, but I can't see evidence that yellow lettering was called for. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_1a6.a8df19c.2ae3668c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/19/02 11:15:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, casawicki2@yahoo.com writes:


List- has any company sold an HO kit or RTR of the
X29D with this paint scheme?? TIA


Varney had this PRR scheme on their boxcar (a WW2 generic box I believe), and for some years now MDC has been selling their HO single door 40' shell with it as stock number 1042.  Of course, not only is the MDC car nothing like the Pennsy car, but they are using YELLOW lettering for the slogan.

Therein lies a tale.  I never saw but one X29D with DSMS -- I'm not sure if I have a slide.  It's lettering looked white.  For many years, I said "there were no yellow DSMS slogans".  However, recently, I have seen some color photos where the slogan appears a different tint than the other stencil paste on the car.  It's not a really REEFER yellow, but it has weathered slightly different from white.

So far as I know, there's no PRR company documentation on this phenomenon -- the arrangement drawing for this is in the Pennsylvania Railroad Compendium Vol 1 from Middle Division, but I can't see evidence that yellow lettering was called for.



Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_1a6.a8df19c.2ae3668c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 23:31:10 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR auction items Pennsy fans, Just to let you know we're turning loose of three PRR items to our List 17 auction. These and other List 17 items are from the collection of the late Jack Fravert. They are: Category code ID RR Year of publication Description RPPTT 941 PRR 1950 PTT-Pennsylvania Railroad Form 1 Dec 15, 1950. 56pp. Good but shows a little cover wear and some corner-folding RPPM 991 PRR 1905 Map - State of Ohio 1905 (multicolor map showing color-coded rail lines), paper on linen and bound into a hardback RPPM 1317 PRR 1915 Map of the Grand Rapids and Indiana Railway (Dec 1915) showing Automobile Roads in the northern Lower Peninsula. issued 1915. GR&I/PRR station map on reverse, Mackinac to Cincinnati, Chicago to eastern OH Note that these items are NOT on eBay. This auction closes in two weeks, but you need several days' lead time to get set up to bid effectively. Email me if you need to be added to our list of email bidders, or if you have any questions... Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/jd3IAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 23:31:10 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR auction items --part1_16c.15cf952c.2ae37d7e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pennsy fans, Just to let you know we're turning loose of three PRR items to our List 17 auction. These and other List 17 items are from the collection of the late Jack Fravert. They are: Category code ID RR Year of publication Description RPPTT 941 PRR 1950 PTT-Pennsylvania Railroad Form 1 Dec 15, 1950. 56pp. Good but shows a little cover wear and some corner-folding RPPM 991 PRR 1905 Map - State of Ohio 1905 (multicolor map showing color-coded rail lines), paper on linen and bound into a hardback RPPM 1317 PRR 1915 Map of the Grand Rapids and Indiana Railway (Dec 1915) showing Automobile Roads in the northern Lower Peninsula. issued 1915. GR&I/PRR station map on reverse, Mackinac to Cincinnati, Chicago to eastern OH Note that these items are NOT on eBay. This auction closes in two weeks, but you need several days' lead time to get set up to bid effectively. Email me if you need to be added to our list of email bidders, or if you have any questions... Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com --part1_16c.15cf952c.2ae37d7e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pennsy fans,

Just to let you know we're turning loose of three PRR items to our List 17 auction.  These and other List 17 items are from the collection of the late Jack Fravert.  They are:

Category code ID RR Year of publication Description
RPPTT 941 PRR 1950 PTT-Pennsylvania Railroad Form 1 Dec 15, 1950. 56pp.  Good but shows a little cover wear and some corner-folding
RPPM 991 PRR 1905 Map - State of Ohio 1905 (multicolor map showing color-coded rail lines), paper on linen and bound into a hardback
RPPM 1317 PRR 1915 Map of the Grand Rapids and Indiana Railway (Dec 1915) showing Automobile Roads in the northern Lower Peninsula.  issued 1915.  GR&I/PRR station map on reverse, Mackinac to Cincinnati, Chicago to eastern OH

Note that these items are NOT on eBay.  This auction closes in two weeks, but you need several days' lead time to get set up to bid effectively.

Email me if you need to be added to our list of email bidders, or if you have any questions...



Rick Tipton
Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana.
Email RickTipton@aol.com
 --part1_16c.15cf952c.2ae37d7e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 10:29:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Interesting Operation Randy....... I might be wrong but that might be the old PRR K&T Branch that ran behind the Phila. Police Academy. Most of the line is gone today. Red Flags warn train crews of the "occasional" stray bullet. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 07:30:56 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Car Builders Cyclopedia --- Bill Lane <billlane@comcast.net> wrote: > Hi All, > > Does anyone know what year the Car Builders Cyclopedia 19th edition > is? Yes, I do, and probably others. > Please reply to billlane@comcast.net OK. >From the front matter of the 19th edition: List of editions Car Builders' Dictionary 1st 1879 2nd 1884 3rd 1895 4th 1903 5th 1906 6th 1909 7th 1912 8th 1916 9th 1919 Car Builders' Cyclopedia 10th 1922 11th 1925 12th 1928 13th 1931 14th 1937 15th 1940 16th 1943 17th 1946 18th 1949 19th 1953 ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] SK1b "Don't Stand Me Still" Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 07:09:22 -0400 Rick Tipton wrote: I never saw but one X29D with DSMS -- I'm not sure if I have a slide. It's lettering looked white. For many years, I said "there were no yellow DSMS slogans". However, recently, I have seen some color photos where the slogan appears a different tint than the other stencil paste on the car. It's not a really REEFER yellow, but it has weathered slightly different from white. Here's documentation of the color variations of the DSMS slogans: White: PRR 24270, F. B. King/Dick Kuelbs collection, Tampa FL, 1957, PRR Color Guide Vol 1, p 73 PRR 24352, Richard Short, West Philadelphia PA, 9/1959, PRR Color Guide Vol 1, p 76 PRR 24018, Paul Winters, PRR Color Guide Vol 2, p 36 PRR 24255, Arthur Mitchell, Barre MA, c. 8/1955, Dust Jacket Front/p 52 Yellow: PRR 24115, Don Ball collection, Lawrence KS, 12/1955, PRR Color Guide Vol 3, p 52 PRR 24086, Col. Chet McCoid/Bob's Photos, Glen Cove NY, 1/21/56 The photo of PRR 24115, taken 4 months after the car was rebuilt, clearly shows yellow lettering. At first glance, it appears that the white slogan cars outnumber ones with the yellow slogans; however, I'm with Rick - it would be nice to have some company documentation on this. The yellow does make the slogan stand out more. Of course, it might be nothing more than "Hey Joe, we've got some yellow left over in the gun from that coach - let's use it on that boxcar slogan!," but that's pure speculation. :-) BTW, Microscale 87-1201 has the slogans in both colors. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 14:10:19 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Car Builders' Dictionary/Cyclopedia Bibliography Having just returned from looking at several library catalogs, I can now say: List of editions Car Builders' Dictionary 1st 1879 2nd 1884 reprinted 1888 3rd 1895 reprinted 1898 4th 1903 5th 1906 6th 1909 7th 1912 8th 1916 Car Builders' Dictionary and Cyclopedia 9th 1919 Car Builders' Cyclopedia 10th 1922 11th 1925 12th 1928 13th 1931 14th 1937 15th 1940 16th 1943 17th 1946 18th 1949 19th 1953 20th 1957 Thanks, Steve 21st 1961 Then it merged with the Locomotive Cyclopedia. Car and Locomotive Cyclopedia 1st 1966 2nd 1970 3rd 1974 and then, I think, 3 more editions, but I can't pin down the number nor the dates. But there was no PRR by then, so we don't care, do we? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rdhess10@aol.com Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 21:43:07 EDT Subject: [PRR] HO GG1 --part1_143.d78422.2ae4b5ab_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List, At the York TCA meet Friday I bought a used (unboxed) HO PRR GG-1 #4935 with duel motors and flyweels and directional lighting. It has a switch underneath to change from rail to catenary pick-up. On the truck plates it is stamped (Made In Slovenia) - no other manufacturer's name. Can anyone tell me who marketed this model and the time period? Thanks in advance. Bob Hess --part1_143.d78422.2ae4b5ab_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List,
      At the York TCA meet Friday I bought a used (unboxed) HO PRR GG-1 #4935 with duel motors and flyweels and directional lighting. It has a switch underneath to change from rail to catenary pick-up. On the truck plates it is stamped (Made In Slovenia) - no other manufacturer's name.  Can anyone tell me who marketed this model and the time period?  Thanks in advance.

Bob Hess --part1_143.d78422.2ae4b5ab_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 20:28:25 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] HO GG1 --- rdhess10@aol.com wrote: > List, > At the York TCA meet Friday I bought a used (unboxed) HO PRR > GG-1 > #4935 with duel motors and flyweels and directional lighting. It > has a switch > underneath to change from rail to catenary pick-up. On the truck > plates it is > stamped (Made In Slovenia) Prior to mid-1991, Slovenia was one of the states of Yugoslavia. June 15, 1991 is Slovenia's "Fourth of July". Hence, the model must have been made after that date, since before then, it would have been marked "Made in Yugoslavia". > - no other manufacturer's name. Can > anyone tell > me who marketed this model My guess would be IHC. They, and AHM before them, got much of their product from Yugoslavia, before that Austria, and before that Italy. > and the time period? After June 15, 1991. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] B70 Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 23:56:24 -0400 Walt Prusick wrote: Recently Chris Chaney asked if anyone here had the notes for building a layout quality B70 from that old stand by, the Athearn baggage. I have yet to see any responses, and would like to do the kitbash as well. Was there a response (which I missed), if so please include me in the loop. I've held off on answering this question because I don't have any photos of Class B70 on hand, and I'm always hesitant to make calls based on equipment diagrams alone. (They're available at Rob Schoenberg's website: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=B70-E95999.gif&sel=bag g&sz=sm&fr= http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=b70_exp.gif&sel=bagg&s z=sm&fr= That being said, here are the pros and cons of using the Athearn Baggage for this conversion: Pros: - The car's dimensions and proportions are comparable to the prototype except for two important features. Cons: - The first detail is the width of the baggage doors. Class B70 has two equal sized doors (5 ft 5 3/8 in width openings). The Athearn baggage has two different doors widths of 6 ft and 8 ft. The different sized doors really throws off the proportions of the car in comparison to the prototype. This is difficult to fix - you can't simply cut a body in half because the same sized doors are located diagonally to each other. You'd have to make a flat kit out of two car bodies, then cut apart and splice the sides to be able to get two equal sized 6 ft doors. - The Class B70 cars have a wide letterboard, a feature common to almost all classes of PRR head end cars. This letterboard runs unbroken above the doors. The doors on the Athearn car are the full height of the car side. It really depends on what you define as layout quality - in my opinion, the different sized baggage doors really detract from the appearance of the car. A real spotting feature of PRR general service baggage cars is the pair of equal size doors. Only the theatrical scenery cars and horse-baggage cars had different sized doors. If you're still intent on using the Athearn baggage, I'd make the following modifications: - Body mount the couplers. - Sand or file off the ribs on the roof. They're supposed to represent seam caps on those prototypes that had them, but they're grossly out of scale, and at any rate very few prototypes had them. Be careful not to round off the edges of the clerestory. - Remove the upper belt rail and the vertical rows of rivets from the car sides. Retain the horizontal row of rivets along the bottom of the car side. - Fabricate seam strips out of .005 styrene strip and locate per photo or equipment diagram. Use .010 styrene strip to make a letterboard and wrap it around the ends. You'll have to break the letterboard up at the doors, but these modifications will "Pennsy-ize" the car. - Detail to taste. However, the Athearn baggage car is a decent start for other roads that had clerestory roof head end cars with different sized doors, once you take care of the roof ribs. As always, check the car against prototype photos if possible. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 00:11:23 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] HO GG1 Bob: It is marketed by IHC. What you are describing with two motors is one of their "premier" line. They started making them with two flywheels and two motors about 1998 or 1999. This loco is a great puller!!! Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] B70 Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 08:34:20 -0400 Ben: When you cut two Athearn bodies to make a B70 you will wind up with two halves with large doors on both sides, use these and plate over with .010 styrene and drill a hole for the portal window. Also, throw away the Athearn floor and make a new one from wood, styrene or card stock 1/8" thick and make a center sill from stripwood or styrene, brass etc. shapes. Use the head end of a 4 penny finish nail to make the steam line blow down. PRR didn't use the fishbelly underframe. Also make a wood block backing for the battery box and glue it to the center. The 3 axle PRR trucks are the most difficult part. Anybody know of a place to get these at a reasonable price? Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" To: Cc: ; Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 11:56 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] B70 > Walt Prusick wrote: > Recently Chris Chaney asked if anyone here had the notes for building a > layout quality B70 from that old stand by, the Athearn baggage. I have yet > to see any responses, and would like to do the kitbash as well. Was there a > response (which I missed), if so please include me in the loop. > > > I've held off on answering this question because I don't have any photos of > Class B70 on hand, and I'm always hesitant to make calls based on equipment > diagrams alone. (They're available at Rob Schoenberg's website: > > http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=B70-E95999.gif&sel=bag > g&sz=sm&fr= > http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=b70_exp.gif&sel=bagg&s > z=sm&fr= > > That being said, here are the pros and cons of using the Athearn Baggage for > this conversion: > > Pros: > - The car's dimensions and proportions are comparable to the prototype > except for two important features. > > Cons: > - The first detail is the width of the baggage doors. Class B70 has two > equal sized doors (5 ft 5 3/8 in width openings). The Athearn baggage has > two different doors widths of 6 ft and 8 ft. The different sized doors > really throws off the proportions of the car in comparison to the prototype. > This is difficult to fix - you can't simply cut a body in half because the > same sized doors are located diagonally to each other. You'd have to make a > flat kit out of two car bodies, then cut apart and splice the sides to be > able to get two equal sized 6 ft doors. > > - The Class B70 cars have a wide letterboard, a feature common to almost > all classes of PRR head end cars. This letterboard runs unbroken above the > doors. The doors on the Athearn car are the full height of the car side. > > It really depends on what you define as layout quality - in my opinion, the > different sized baggage doors really detract from the appearance of the car. > A real spotting feature of PRR general service baggage cars is the pair of > equal size doors. Only the theatrical scenery cars and horse-baggage cars > had different sized doors. > > If you're still intent on using the Athearn baggage, I'd make the following > modifications: > > - Body mount the couplers. > > - Sand or file off the ribs on the roof. They're supposed to represent seam > caps on those prototypes that had them, but they're grossly out of scale, > and at any rate very few prototypes had them. Be careful not to round off > the edges of the clerestory. > > - Remove the upper belt rail and the vertical rows of rivets from the car > sides. Retain the horizontal row of rivets along the bottom of the car > side. > > - Fabricate seam strips out of .005 styrene strip and locate per photo or > equipment diagram. Use .010 styrene strip to make a letterboard and wrap it > around the ends. You'll have to break the letterboard up at the doors, but > these modifications will "Pennsy-ize" the car. > > - Detail to taste. > > However, the Athearn baggage car is a decent start for other roads that had > clerestory roof head end cars with different sized doors, once you take care > of the roof ribs. As always, check the car against prototype photos if > possible. > > > Ben Hom > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pgrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] HO GG1 Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 14:11:57 +0100 Bob, The manufacturer is Mehano, and Slovenia is the northern province of the old Yugoslavia. I believe that the model has been sold under the IHC label for some years.... Patrick Grace ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Warner" To: ; "PRR Talk List" Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 5:11 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] HO GG1 > Bob: > > It is marketed by IHC. What you are describing with two motors is one > of their "premier" line. They started making them with two flywheels > and two motors about 1998 or 1999. This loco is a great puller!!! > > Jeff Warner > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 09:25:33 -0500 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] Proto Modelers Hi, everyone, The Prototype Modelers meet in Naperville,IL is coming this weekend. Are any of you PRR fans out there planning on attending? If so, maybe we should all get together sometime during the weekend. George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Car Builders' Cyclopedia, other editions? Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 10:43:10 -0400 Listers: I have on my bookshelf the "Car and Locomotive Cyclopedia of American Practices, Simmons Boardman Books, Inc. 402-346-4300 (Omaha) "Sixth Edition". I received it on 12-2-1997 at a cost of $275.00. It is 1136 pages and includes a section on STEAM LOCOMOTIVES. There is a very short section on tourist train and private cars. And oyez, the two photos on page 275 were taken by yours truly. I am certain there haven't been any published since 1997, but if you call the phone number above, you might find out if others are planned. Bill Volkmer (PRR employee 1958-1968) -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Steve Hoxie Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 11:59 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Car Builders' Cyclopedia, other editions? Sweet Old Bob asked-- > > If someone has or has access to a more recent edition, would he > please post the dates of the 20th through whatever editions? > 20th edition 1957 Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: RE: [PRR] Proto Modelers Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 10:08:31 -0500 Hi George and List, Looking forward to this all year. Perhaps we can all get together for lunch at one of the well known national chains. Cheap food and great fellowship. Pete Reinhold Hi, everyone, The Prototype Modelers meet in Naperville,IL is coming this weekend. Are any of you PRR fans out there planning on attending? If so, maybe we should all get together sometime during the weekend. George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] The PRRT&HS Keystone Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:12:22 -0400 Listers, I was going through my old Keystones and found an index for Vols. I-XI of the Keystone. It is pretty comprehensive and includes the Snapper. I'm trying to figure out a way to make it searchable so that the Listers could use it. Chris Chany PS: I also found the proper Floquil color match for PRR beige and brown building paints. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:27:07 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Bibliography of Car and Locomotive Cyclopedias, 2nd revision Herewith, the 2nd revision of the bibliography of Car and Locomotive Cyclopedias. Open questions: When were the 4th and 5th editions published? What editions of the Locomotive Cyclopedia were there? Car Builders' Dictionary 1st 1879 2nd 1884 reprinted 1888 3rd 1895 reprinted 1898 4th 1903 5th 1906 6th 1909 7th 1912 8th 1916 Car Builders' Dictionary and Cyclopedia 9th 1919 Car Builders' Cyclopedia 10th 1922 11th 1925 12th 1928 13th 1931 14th 1937 15th 1940 16th 1943 17th 1946 18th 1949 19th 1953 20th 1957 Thanks, Steve 21st 1961 Car and Locomotive Cyclopedia 1st 1966 2nd 1970 3rd 1974 4th ???? 5th ???? 6th 1997 Thanks, Bill The 1997 date for the 6th edition is consistent with what I thought I saw in one catalog, but I wasn't sure at the time what it was telling me. Thought it might have been the year the library acquired it. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:39:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Train Phone and Tenders List, Just need to know what was the practice when it came to Train Phone Antenna and Tender Water Hatches. Did all PRR Tenders have 2 water hatches located lengthwise (one on each side) if the tender was equiped with Trainphone or was there a possibilty of having one hatch located in the original widthwise position which happened to be directly under the Antenna pipe? TIA...Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 07:09:22 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] SK1b "Don't Stand Me Still" Rick Tipton wrote: I never saw but one X29D with DSMS -- I'm not sure if I have a slide. It's lettering looked white. For many years, I said "there were no yellow DSMS slogans". However, recently, I have seen some color photos where the slogan appears a different tint than the other stencil paste on the car. It's not a really REEFER yellow, but it has weathered slightly different from white. Here's documentation of the color variations of the DSMS slogans: White: PRR 24270, F. B. King/Dick Kuelbs collection, Tampa FL, 1957, PRR Color Guide Vol 1, p 73 PRR 24352, Richard Short, West Philadelphia PA, 9/1959, PRR Color Guide Vol 1, p 76 PRR 24018, Paul Winters, PRR Color Guide Vol 2, p 36 PRR 24255, Arthur Mitchell, Barre MA, c. 8/1955, Dust Jacket Front/p 52 Yellow: PRR 24115, Don Ball collection, Lawrence KS, 12/1955, PRR Color Guide Vol 3, p 52 PRR 24086, Col. Chet McCoid/Bob's Photos, Glen Cove NY, 1/21/56 The photo of PRR 24115, taken 4 months after the car was rebuilt, clearly shows yellow lettering. At first glance, it appears that the white slogan cars outnumber ones with the yellow slogans; however, I'm with Rick - it would be nice to have some company documentation on this. The yellow does make the slogan stand out more. Of course, it might be nothing more than "Hey Joe, we've got some yellow left over in the gun from that coach - let's use it on that boxcar slogan!," but that's pure speculation. :-) BTW, Microscale 87-1201 has the slogans in both colors. Ben Hom ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Is your business paying to much? Affordable insurance and benefits packages for Less. http://us.click.yahoo.com/jCP0DB/E.mEAA/jd3IAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] B70 Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 18:06:27 -0400 Lew Matt wrote: When you cut two Athearn bodies to make a B70 you will wind up with two halves with large doors on both sides, use these and plate over with .010 styrene and drill a hole for the portal window. Thanks, Lew - I see that now that I have a model in front of me. (The dangers of recommending a kitbash from a picture of one side!) That makes the kitbash much easier, and one I can recommend (it's a heck of lot cheaper than a brass model). However, don't you mean the ends with smaller doors? They scale out to 6 ft (prototype B70 5 ft 5 3/8 in), while the large doors are too big at 8 ft. I agree with replacing the floor - never did like the Athearn underframe anyway with its gigantic "equipment box" that takes up the whole center of the underframe. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 19:59:11 -0400 From: John Ryan Subject: Re: [PRR] The PRRT&HS Keystone Try scanning it into Word. Word has a "find" function. I made an index using Excel. It also has a find function. You can also filter your entries in Excel. John Ryan Chany, Christopher wrote: >Listers, > >I was going through my old Keystones and found an index for Vols. I-XI of >the Keystone. It is pretty comprehensive and includes the Snapper. I'm >trying to figure out a way to make it searchable so that the Listers could >use it. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] B70 Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 20:19:34 -0400 It doesn't really matter as long as both doors are the same and you make your fleet the same. If you leave the doors in panels, use the small doors. It's one of those details that you really "don't see" once you plate over the door and install a single porthole window, unless, of course, you are compulsively studying the details of the car. That is not what a layout quality kitbash is all about. Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" To: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" ; Cc: ; Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 6:06 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] B70 > Lew Matt wrote: > When you cut two Athearn bodies to make a B70 you will wind up with two > halves with large doors on both sides, use these and plate over with .010 > styrene and drill a hole for the portal window. > > > Thanks, Lew - I see that now that I have a model in front of me. (The > dangers of recommending a kitbash from a picture of one side!) That makes > the kitbash much easier, and one I can recommend (it's a heck of lot cheaper > than a brass model). However, don't you mean the ends with smaller doors? > They scale out to 6 ft (prototype B70 5 ft 5 3/8 in), while the large doors > are too big at 8 ft. > > I agree with replacing the floor - never did like the Athearn underframe > anyway with its gigantic "equipment box" that takes up the whole center of > the underframe. > > > Ben Hom > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 17:46:15 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Car and Locomotive Cyclopedia Bibliography, 3rd revision Herewith, the 3rd revision of the bibliography of Car and Locomotive Cyclopedias. Open questions: What editions of the Locomotive Cyclopedia were there? There were 21, running from 1906 to the 1960's (see below) Note to folks in the Pittsburgh area: According to their catalog, the Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh has editions 1, 3 thru 11, and 13. Note to folks not in the Pittsburgh area: Eat your hearts out. OR Can you say "Interlibrary loan"? Locomotive Dictionary 1st 1906 2nd ???? 3rd 1912 4th 1916 Locomotive Dictionary and Cyclopedia 5th 1919 Locomotive Cyclopedia 6th 1922 7th 1925 8th 1927 9th 1930 10th 1938 11th 1941 12th ???? 13th 1947 14th ???? 15th ???? 16th ???? One catalog mentioned an edition in 1956, 17th ???? but did not say which edition it was. 18th ???? 19th ???? 20th ???? 21th 196? and then it merged with the Car Builders' Cyclopedia Car Builders' Dictionary 1st 1879 2nd 1884 reprinted 1888 3rd 1895 reprinted 1898 4th 1903 5th 1906 6th 1909 7th 1912 8th 1916 Car Builders' Dictionary and Cyclopedia 9th 1919 Car Builders' Cyclopedia 10th 1922 11th 1925 12th 1928 13th 1931 14th 1937 15th 1940 16th 1943 17th 1946 18th 1949 19th 1953 20th 1957 Thanks, Steve 21st 1961 Car and Locomotive Cyclopedia 1st 1966 2nd 1970 3rd 1974 4th ???? 5th ???? 6th 1997 Thanks, Bill ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 21:06:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Car and Locomotive Cyclopedia Bibliography, 3rd revision On Mon, 21 Oct 2002, robert netzlof wrote: > Note to folks in the Pittsburgh area: > According to their catalog, the Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh has > editions 1, 3 thru 11, and 13. > > Note to folks not in the Pittsburgh area: > Eat your hearts out. > OR > Can you say "Interlibrary loan"? Which department are they in? (I suppose I can/should check) It's entirely possible that only the former note applies. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] B70 Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 21:57:17 -0400 Lew Matt wrote: It doesn't really matter as long as both doors are the same and you make your fleet the same. If you leave the doors in panels, use the small doors. It's one of those details that you really "don't see" once you plate over the door and install a single porthole window, unless, of course, you are compulsively studying the details of the car. That is not what a layout quality kitbash is all about. Actually Lew, it does matter. Even if you apply the "three foot" rule test to the unmodified car, the wider doors are very noticeable. They might not be noticeable if you keep your B70 fleet all the same, but put a single B60B in the consist and you illusion is ruined. To me, a layout quality kitbash doesn't have to be dead on, but has to make a credible attempt to at least capture the appearance of the car. If your definition of layout quality kitbash is very loose, you might as well just paint and letter the car PRR without making any modifications. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:39:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Train Phone and Tenders List, Just need to know what was the practice when it came to Train Phone Antenna and Tender Water Hatches. Did all PRR Tenders have 2 water hatches located lengthwise (one on each side) if the tender was equiped with Trainphone or was there a possibilty of having one hatch located in the original widthwise position which happened to be directly under the Antenna pipe? TIA...Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/jd3IAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Les Zody" Subject: [PRR] GSH gon. Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 20:56:46 -0700 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C27944.5E33B820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List, Does anyone know of pictures of the GSH 38' steel gondola? I'm building a= kit and have a line drawing but the trucks seem to be set very high in t= he drawing. so a low side view would be great. ty = Les Zody = =20 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C27944.5E33B820 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
List,

D= oes anyone know of pictures of the GSH 38' steel gondola? I'm building a = kit and have a line drawing but the trucks seem to be set very high in th= e drawing. so a low side view would be great.    = ;             = ;    ty        Les=   Zody          &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;    
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C27944.5E33B820-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 00:36:54 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Writing a "Derby Day" article In a message dated 10/20/02 9:40:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > <<<...And then there were the Derby Day Specials coming to Louisville. The > PRR > operated specials from Pittsburgh and from Chicago until the 60's -- > earlier, > there were Specials from St. Louis. Plus, the Kentuckian (various numbers > over time) would be filled out on Friday and Saturday with extra cars. > Other > roads (L&N, Monon, C&O, B&O, Southern, IC) also had their special trains, > with L&N trains from Cincinnati and from the south. The L&N also regularly > > carried the Kirby Detroit special south of Cincinnati, which one year was > an > M-1 (L&N Berkshire or "Big Emma" followed by NYC streamlined equipment, > including a Budd observation. > > The real plungers arrived on private cars and business cars, which were > lined > up against a set of bumpers right on Broadway (the street in front of > Louisville Union Station). I've seen pix of Pennsy business cars, plus > Strasburg RR's Pequea Valley, Central Indiana's BV #99, and others. > > One of these years, I will assemble enough material on Derby Day for an > article in the Keystone. I'm working on it -- have pix of doubleheaded > K4s, > tripleheaded E8's, etc.>>> > > I thought there was one in the Keystone, though it might have been in > Trains. > In any event, based upon your spectacular covered hopper article, I expect > you will overwhelm us with great previously unpublished stuff. :-). > > Bob Zoeller Bob, Those are very kind words. However, the task is twofold: 1. Find people and documentation that tell us what The First Saturday in May (Derby Day) was like on the railroad (PRR men are hard to find in this town, and of course by its nature, this is not a PRR story alone). 2. Find people who can lend pictures to flesh out these experiences (I have a lot to learn, and I'm still learning it). FWIW, although the covered hopper article was a large undertaking, I'm still finding that it's taking real time and patience to put a decent "Derby Day" article together. Also, although the late Jack Fravert's photos are a good place to start, it's my objective to combine the efforts of a number of local railfans to gain breadth in coverage, and also so many of our local talents get recognized. If you search the files of Trains for past articles on the Derby, I think you'll find out they're penned by local rail historian Charlie Castner, who is retired from Public Relations here at L&N Headquarters. It's my good fortune to have Charlie as a resource on this project -- he's even lent me slides and photos that I don't think have ever been published. I showed a few of those to the folks in Camp Hill this year. Wish me luck...and if anyone out there has material on railroading and the Kentucky Derby, I'd really like to talk to you... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Is your business paying to much? Affordable insurance and benefits packages for Less. http://us.click.yahoo.com/jCP0DB/E.mEAA/jd3IAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 00:36:54 EDT Subject: [PRR] Writing a "Derby Day" article --part1_1c6.6480f5.2ae62fe6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/20/02 9:40:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > <<<...And then there were the Derby Day Specials coming to Louisville. The > PRR > operated specials from Pittsburgh and from Chicago until the 60's -- > earlier, > there were Specials from St. Louis. Plus, the Kentuckian (various numbers > over time) would be filled out on Friday and Saturday with extra cars. > Other > roads (L&N, Monon, C&O, B&O, Southern, IC) also had their special trains, > with L&N trains from Cincinnati and from the south. The L&N also regularly > > carried the Kirby Detroit special south of Cincinnati, which one year was > an > M-1 (L&N Berkshire or "Big Emma" followed by NYC streamlined equipment, > including a Budd observation. > > The real plungers arrived on private cars and business cars, which were > lined > up against a set of bumpers right on Broadway (the street in front of > Louisville Union Station). I've seen pix of Pennsy business cars, plus > Strasburg RR's Pequea Valley, Central Indiana's BV #99, and others. > > One of these years, I will assemble enough material on Derby Day for an > article in the Keystone. I'm working on it -- have pix of doubleheaded > K4s, > tripleheaded E8's, etc.>>> > > I thought there was one in the Keystone, though it might have been in > Trains. > In any event, based upon your spectacular covered hopper article, I expect > you will overwhelm us with great previously unpublished stuff. :-). > > Bob Zoeller Bob, Those are very kind words. However, the task is twofold: 1. Find people and documentation that tell us what The First Saturday in May (Derby Day) was like on the railroad (PRR men are hard to find in this town, and of course by its nature, this is not a PRR story alone). 2. Find people who can lend pictures to flesh out these experiences (I have a lot to learn, and I'm still learning it). FWIW, although the covered hopper article was a large undertaking, I'm still finding that it's taking real time and patience to put a decent "Derby Day" article together. Also, although the late Jack Fravert's photos are a good place to start, it's my objective to combine the efforts of a number of local railfans to gain breadth in coverage, and also so many of our local talents get recognized. If you search the files of Trains for past articles on the Derby, I think you'll find out they're penned by local rail historian Charlie Castner, who is retired from Public Relations here at L&N Headquarters. It's my good fortune to have Charlie as a resource on this project -- he's even lent me slides and photos that I don't think have ever been published. I showed a few of those to the folks in Camp Hill this year. Wish me luck...and if anyone out there has material on railroading and the Kentucky Derby, I'd really like to talk to you... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_1c6.6480f5.2ae62fe6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/20/02 9:40:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes:


<<<...And then there were the Derby Day Specials coming to Louisville.  The PRR
operated specials from Pittsburgh and from Chicago until the 60's -- earlier,
there were Specials from St. Louis.  Plus, the Kentuckian (various numbers
over time) would be filled out on Friday and Saturday with extra cars.  Other
roads (L&N, Monon, C&O, B&O, Southern, IC) also had their special trains,
with L&N trains from Cincinnati and from the south.  The L&N also regularly
carried the Kirby Detroit special south of Cincinnati, which one year was an
M-1 (L&N Berkshire or "Big Emma" followed by NYC streamlined equipment,
including a Budd observation.

The real plungers arrived on private cars and business cars, which were lined
up against a set of bumpers right on Broadway (the street in front of
Louisville Union Station).  I've seen pix of Pennsy business cars, plus
Strasburg RR's Pequea Valley, Central Indiana's BV #99, and others.

One of these years, I will assemble enough material on Derby Day for an
article in the Keystone.  I'm working on it -- have pix of doubleheaded K4s,
tripleheaded E8's, etc.>>>

I thought there was one in the Keystone, though it might have been in Trains.
In any event, based upon your spectacular covered hopper article, I expect
you will overwhelm us with great previously unpublished stuff. :-).

Bob Zoeller


Bob,

Those are very kind words.  However, the task is twofold:
1.  Find people and documentation that tell us what The First Saturday in May (Derby Day) was like on the railroad (PRR men are hard to find in this town, and of course by its nature, this is not a PRR story alone).
2.  Find people who can lend pictures to flesh out these experiences (I have a lot to learn, and I'm still learning it).

FWIW, although the covered hopper article was a large undertaking, I'm still finding that it's taking real time and patience to put a decent "Derby Day" article together.  Also, although the late Jack Fravert's photos are a good place to start, it's my objective to combine the efforts of a number of local railfans to gain breadth in coverage, and also so many of our local talents get recognized.

If you search the files of Trains for past articles on the Derby, I think you'll find out they're penned by local rail historian Charlie Castner, who is retired from Public Relations here at L&N Headquarters.  It's my good fortune to have Charlie as a resource on this project -- he's even lent me slides and photos that I don't think have ever been published.  I showed a few of those to the folks in Camp Hill this year.

Wish me luck...and if anyone out there has material on railroading and the Kentucky Derby, I'd really like to talk to you...

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_1c6.6480f5.2ae62fe6_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 21:45:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Car and Locomotive Cyclopedia Bibliography, 3rd revision Filled some gaps........... Locomotive Cyclopedia 12th: 1944 13th 1947 14th: 1950-52 15th: 1956 (last one before merger with Car Builders?) I think the last Car Builders Cyc. was the 1961,21st edition. 1966 was the first edtion of the Car and Locomotive Cyc. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Cooper" Subject: [PRR] Portal Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 22:05:27 -0700 Does anyone have photos they could scan of the draw bridge at Portal, between Newark and New York? John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: [PRR] PRR Mikado consist Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 01:21:31 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C27969.5AA847A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gents; Anybody know a typical number of freight cars the Mike (by itself) = would pull, say around Horseshoe and in flat country?? I understand the K4 would pull up to 5-6 heavyweights solo around = Horseshoe and 12 in flat country (Lines West), that sound about right? Earl Myers ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C27969.5AA847A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gents;
 Anybody know a typical number of = freight cars=20 the Mike (by itself) would pull, say around Horseshoe and in flat=20 country??
 
 I understand the K4 would pull up = to 5-6=20 heavyweights solo around Horseshoe and 12 in flat country (Lines West), = that=20 sound about right?
Earl Myers
------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C27969.5AA847A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] GSH gon. Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 06:39:18 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C27995.BF612D20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Les Zody asked: Does anyone know of pictures of the GSH 38' steel gondola? There's a broadside photo of PRR 390252 at Ted Culotta's Steam Era = Freight Cars website: http://www.steamfreightcars.com/gallery/gon/prrgon/prrgsmain.html Check out his website - there's lots of great prototype and modeling = information there! Ben Hom ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C27995.BF612D20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Les Zody = asked:
Does anyone know of = pictures of the GSH=20 38' steel gondola?
 
 
There's a broadside photo = of PRR=20 390252 at Ted Culotta's Steam Era Freight Cars = website:
http://www.steamfreightcars.com/gallery/gon/prrgon/prrgsmain.html
 
Check out his website - = there's lots of=20 great prototype and modeling information there!
 
 
Ben = Hom
------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C27995.BF612D20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 07:36:07 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Crew Call Op session 11/16 Harrisburg, Pa area Listers, The time has come for the Cornwall Railroad to have another op session. The rails have rusted and the bearings have frozen from lack of use but the time has come to fire up the boilers and start operating the railroad after 8 months of inactivity. Ever since the convention layout tour the layout has been under some sort of construction. I now intend to stop working and start operating again. The op session will start at 1:00PM on Saturday November 16th. Please try to be here about 1230 to get assignments and to familiarize yourself with the layout and operating procedures. I will provide directions for those operators that have never been here. There is no minimum age requirement but crew members under 16 must have an operating parent on their crew. For those of you that have attended one of my sessions before, the format is pretty much unchanged. The layout is Dispatcher controlled and the operation is by car cards. I will need 8 operators plus a dispatcher, Yardmaster, and two local crews for the Lebanon area to assist the Yardmaster. I use Digitrax DCC for control and we use the small 16 channel Radio Shack radios for the crews. I ask operators to bring throttles and radios if they have them although radios are in shorter supply, only two extra are available. I request a firm commitment from operators that "bid" on the jobs and when the call board is full, I will send out a notice to all applicants. The layout is HO scale but anyone that likes operation is welcome. No equipment is necessary but visiting PRR steam of first-generation diesels are welcome if they are DCC equipped. If you are interested please send me an email off-list. Thanks, Nick Kulp http://www.igateway.com X-SpamDetect: high: , ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: [PRR] Cabin Car Collision Posts Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 08:35:57 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C279A6.0FA886B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi to all, Does anyone know what size beams were used for the collision posts on the on the N5's. Thanks in advance, Pete Reinhold ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C279A6.0FA886B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi to all,

 

  Does = anyone know what size beams were used for the collision posts on the on the = N5’s.

 

Thanks in advance,

Pete Reinhold

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C279A6.0FA886B0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 10:47:04 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Car and Locomotive Cyclopedia Bibliography, 4th revision Herewith, the 4th revision of the bibliography of Car and Locomotive Cyclopedias. I said: Open questions: What editions of the Locomotive Cyclopedia were there? Then I said: There were 21, running from 1906 to the 1960's (see below) I now say: I got that from a library catalog entry. Dave Hopson says he thinks the 15th was the last edition before the merger with the Car Builders' Cyc. He gives dates for the 12th, 14th and 15th editions. The 15th ed. was in 1956, which leaves little time and little reason for 6 more editions in the next 10 years. I'm beginning to suspect that some librarian got the two Cyclopedias confused, saying "21 editions of the Locomotive Cyc." while looking at a paper which was talking about the Car Builders' Cyc. Locomotive Dictionary 1st 1906 2nd ???? <---- need year 3rd 1912 4th 1916 Locomotive Dictionary and Cyclopedia 5th 1919 Locomotive Cyclopedia 6th 1922 7th 1925 8th 1927 9th 1930 10th 1938 11th 1941 12th 1944 Thanks, Dave 13th 1947 14th 1950-52 * ditto * 15th 1956 * ditto * and then it merged with the Car Builders' Cyclopedia Car Builders' Dictionary 1st 1879 2nd 1884 reprinted 1888 3rd 1895 reprinted 1898 4th 1903 5th 1906 6th 1909 7th 1912 8th 1916 Car Builders' Dictionary and Cyclopedia 9th 1919 Car Builders' Cyclopedia 10th 1922 11th 1925 12th 1928 13th 1931 14th 1937 15th 1940 16th 1943 17th 1946 18th 1949 19th 1953 20th 1957 Thanks, Steve 21st 1961 Car and Locomotive Cyclopedia 1st 1966 2nd 1970 3rd 1974 4th ???? <----- need year 5th 1984 6th 1997 Thanks, Bill ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 15:17:28 -0400 From: Zak Subject: [PRR] Z-scale Couplers with N-scale Items This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_dHXyrQJgVN6UKLCPBEXnow) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi, List. I made a small query about this a year or so ago, but that was with another 'puter...and you don't want to hear all that. ;-) Anyway, I had noted then that N-Scale magazine had many pix of N-scale cars with Z-scale freight cars, and wondered if that was a feasible arrangement to use. As I say, replies are.......... My questions are: 1. Can Z-scale couplers be used with an N-scale decoupler? If not, the rest of these questions are moot. 2. If this is feasible with freight cars, is it also feasible with passenger cars? (I seem to remember someone giving a reply to someone else's question about this that the track radius had to be really wide, but I'm not sure.) 3. If the above are feasible, which manufacturer can provide such couplers? I've looked at MTL, but I'm not sure if they can do it. Is there any other sourcing? Yes, I've asked a lot; but if all that info is in the newest "Walther's", please tell me. I haven't gotten a copy yet. Last question: If I were to use passenger cars that were not to be taken apart, which manufacturer has the most "proto" model of those? (Oops, I might have opened a can of worms on that one!) Thank you in advance for all answers. Zak --Boundary_(ID_dHXyrQJgVN6UKLCPBEXnow) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Hi, List.
 
I made a small query about this a year or so ago, but that was with another 'puter...and you don't want to hear all that.  ;-)
 
Anyway, I had noted then that N-Scale magazine had many pix of N-scale cars with Z-scale freight cars, and wondered if that was a feasible arrangement to use.
 
As I say, replies are..........
 
My questions are:
 
1.  Can Z-scale couplers be used with an N-scale decoupler?  If not, the rest of these questions are moot.
 
2.  If this is feasible with freight cars, is it also feasible with passenger cars?  (I seem to remember someone giving a reply to someone else's question about this that the track radius had to be really wide, but I'm not sure.)
 
3.  If the above are feasible, which manufacturer can provide such couplers?  I've looked at MTL, but I'm not sure if they can do it.  Is there any other sourcing?
 
Yes, I've asked a lot; but if all that info is in the newest "Walther's", please tell me.  I haven't gotten a copy yet.
 
Last question:  If I were to use passenger cars that were not to be taken apart, which manufacturer has the most "proto" model of those?
 
(Oops, I might have opened a can of worms on that one!)
 
Thank you in advance for all answers.
 
Zak
--Boundary_(ID_dHXyrQJgVN6UKLCPBEXnow)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 15:33:27 -0400 From: Zak Subject: Fw: [PRR] Z-scale Couplers with N-scale Items This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_5/A4PY6aTK8N69vl7AMlRA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi, again, List. Just noticed that I stated something wrong in my second paragraph. It should read: "...many pix of N-scale cars with Z-scale couplers,..... Sorry 'bout that. Zak ----- Original Message ----- From: Zak To: prr-talk Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 3:17 PM Subject: [PRR] Z-scale Couplers with N-scale Items Hi, List. I made a small query about this a year or so ago, but that was with another 'puter...and you don't want to hear all that. ;-) Anyway, I had noted then that N-Scale magazine had many pix of N-scale cars with Z-scale freight cars, and wondered if that was a feasible arrangement to use. As I say, replies are.......... My questions are: 1. Can Z-scale couplers be used with an N-scale decoupler? If not, the rest of these questions are moot. 2. If this is feasible with freight cars, is it also feasible with passenger cars? (I seem to remember someone giving a reply to someone else's question about this that the track radius had to be really wide, but I'm not sure.) 3. If the above are feasible, which manufacturer can provide such couplers? I've looked at MTL, but I'm not sure if they can do it. Is there any other sourcing? Yes, I've asked a lot; but if all that info is in the newest "Walther's", please tell me. I haven't gotten a copy yet. Last question: If I were to use passenger cars that were not to be taken apart, which manufacturer has the most "proto" model of those? (Oops, I might have opened a can of worms on that one!) Thank you in advance for all answers. Zak --Boundary_(ID_5/A4PY6aTK8N69vl7AMlRA) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Hi, again, List.
 
Just noticed that I stated something wrong in my second paragraph.
 
It should read:  "...many pix of N-scale cars with Z-scale couplers,.....
 
Sorry 'bout that.
 
Zak
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Zak
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 3:17 PM
Subject: [PRR] Z-scale Couplers with N-scale Items

Hi, List.
 
I made a small query about this a year or so ago, but that was with another 'puter...and you don't want to hear all that.  ;-)
 
Anyway, I had noted then that N-Scale magazine had many pix of N-scale cars with Z-scale freight cars, and wondered if that was a feasible arrangement to use.
 
As I say, replies are..........
 
My questions are:
 
1.  Can Z-scale couplers be used with an N-scale decoupler?  If not, the rest of these questions are moot.
 
2.  If this is feasible with freight cars, is it also feasible with passenger cars?  (I seem to remember someone giving a reply to someone else's question about this that the track radius had to be really wide, but I'm not sure.)
 
3.  If the above are feasible, which manufacturer can provide such couplers?  I've looked at MTL, but I'm not sure if they can do it.  Is there any other sourcing?
 
Yes, I've asked a lot; but if all that info is in the newest "Walther's", please tell me.  I haven't gotten a copy yet.
 
Last question:  If I were to use passenger cars that were not to be taken apart, which manufacturer has the most "proto" model of those?
 
(Oops, I might have opened a can of worms on that one!)
 
Thank you in advance for all answers.
 
Zak
--Boundary_(ID_5/A4PY6aTK8N69vl7AMlRA)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 15:39:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Car Collision Posts Pete, I can get actual dimensions saturday from an N5c that we are restoring. I am assuming they are the same as the other N5 classes. Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: RE: [PRR] Cabin Car Collision Posts Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 14:52:27 -0500 Thanks Gary, I would ASSUME that the PRR WOULD HAVE used the same size beam, back to back channel IIRC. We all know what happens when we assume, but I think we are fairly safe on this one. Pete Reinhold Pete, I can get actual dimensions saturday from an N5c that we are restoring. I am assuming they are the same as the other N5 classes. Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 22 Oct 02 17:06:03 EDT From: LINKM@timken.com Subject: [PRR] WELDED LONG DISTANCE TENDERS List: I recently purchased a Bowser Long Haul tender with 4 axle trucks. When I got i t to the workbench, I put the trucks on it and set it on a lenght of track to s ee how it fared. Some of you will be laughing right now, but I knew this would happen, my question is this: If I were to sand all of the rivets off the sides and rear, then apply a new sk irt right to the sides, say out of sheet brass or styrene, leaving the skirt ha ng down below the current sidesill to just about even with the tops of the bear ing box covers on the trucks, would this be closer to the welded coast to coast tenders of the late 40's and early 50's? Anybody ever try this? Thank you, Matt Link PRR T&HS #7140 ********************************************************************** This message and any attachments are intended for the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not forward, copy, print, use or disclose this communication to others; also please notify the sender by replying to this message, and then delete it from your system. The Timken Company ********************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 14:32:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Bobby Bryzinski Subject: [PRR] S1 construction number Hello, Does anyone know what the construction number of the S1 6-4-4-6 was? Thanks, Bob Bryzinski __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] S1 construction number Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 17:44:36 -0400 A Grif Teiler painting depicts an S1, numbered 6100. Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bobby Bryzinski" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 5:32 PM Subject: [PRR] S1 construction number > Hello, > > Does anyone know what the construction number of the > S1 6-4-4-6 was? > > Thanks, > > Bob Bryzinski > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site > http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 17:56:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Car and Locomotive Cyclopedia Bibliography, 4th revision Bob & list....... Locomotive Dictionary, Second Edition was 1912. I have a Locomotive Cyclopedias 1947 and the 1950-52 edition. The 1947 edition was the last big steam edition. The 1950-52 edition was rearranged and revised for the new diesel market. Hope this helps. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] S1 construction number Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 17:37:20 -0500 and Edson lists the S-1's construction number as 4341. -----Original Message----- A Grif Teiler painting depicts an S1, numbered 6100. > Hello, > > Does anyone know what the construction number of the > S1 6-4-4-6 was? > > Thanks, > > Bob Bryzinski ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] B70 Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 19:37:21 -0400 Lew Matt wrote: The 3 axle PRR trucks are the most difficult part. Anybody know of a place to get these at a reasonable price? Bethlehem Car Works #123 @ $9.95 a pair: http://www.bethlehemcarworks.com Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 19:46:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Car and Locomotive Cyclopedia Bibliography, 4th revision Sorry Bob......... Locomotive Dictionary second edition IS 1909, not 1912. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 20:44:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] S1 construction number --part1_188.1004f61d.2ae74af6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/22/02 5:37:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bbryzinski@yahoo.com writes: > Hello, > > Does anyone know what the construction number of the > S1 6-4-4-6 was? > > Thanks, > > Bob Bryzinski > Hi Bob and others, The construction number of S1 6100 was 4341, according to William D. Edson. Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_188.1004f61d.2ae74af6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/22/02 5:37:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bbryzinski@yahoo.com writes:

Hello,

Does anyone know what the construction number of the
S1 6-4-4-6 was?

Thanks,

Bob Bryzinski


Hi Bob and others,

The construction number of S1 6100 was 4341, according to William D. Edson.

Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92
 --part1_188.1004f61d.2ae74af6_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] B70 Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:19:21 -0400 Ben Hom wrote: Bethlehem Car Works #123 @ $9.95 a pair: http://www.bethlehemcarworks.com Oops - the correct price is $19.95 - went off of their flyer which had a typo. The price on the website is correct. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:18:34 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR trailer In my wanderings on the net, I found one vendor who supplies a resin kit for the typical 1950's era Pennsy trailer. Pricey, in the high $20's, but I was considering trying one. Now I can't find it. Anyone else know the vendor and the website location? Thanks, Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 23:04:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR trailer --part1_d5.1f4e6644.2ae76bbd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/22/02 10:29:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bobspf@aol.com writes: > In my wanderings on the net, I found one vendor who supplies a resin kit for > > the typical 1950's era Pennsy trailer. Pricey, in the high $20's, but I > was > considering trying one. Now I can't find it. Anyone else know the vendor > and the website location? > > Thanks, > > Bob Zoeller > Hi Bob, The trailer you're looking for is a PRR 32' insulated trailer in aluminum w/red diagonal "Pennsylvania Railroad" band. It is produced by Bethlehem Car Works. http://www.bethlehemcarworks.com/ Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_d5.1f4e6644.2ae76bbd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/22/02 10:29:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bobspf@aol.com writes:

In my wanderings on the net, I found one vendor who supplies a resin kit for
the typical 1950's era Pennsy trailer.  Pricey, in the high $20's, but I was
considering trying one.  Now I can't find it.  Anyone else know the vendor
and the website location?

Thanks,

Bob Zoeller


Hi Bob,

The trailer you're looking for is a PRR 32' insulated trailer in aluminum w/red diagonal
"Pennsylvania Railroad" band.  It is produced by Bethlehem Car Works.

http://www.bethlehemcarworks.com/

Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_d5.1f4e6644.2ae76bbd_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR trailer Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 23:08:23 -0400 Bob Zoeller wrote: In my wanderings on the net, I found one vendor who supplies a resin kit for the typical 1950's era Pennsy trailer. Pricey, in the high $20's, but I was considering trying one. Now I can't find it. Anyone else know the vendor and the website location? Haven't seen a kit for a 1950s Pennsy trailer, but here's a model of the trailers that the Pennsy got in the early 60s: Sparrow's Point Division of Bethlehem Car Works, Item #SP-12, $24.95 each. http://www.bethlehemcarworks.com These are 40 ft long exterior post trailers with a curbside door and the disc shaped TrucTrain logo. Prototype Reference: Mike Nesladek, "Pennsy's TrucTrain Service", The Keystone, August 1992. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 04:34:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Randolph Harrison Subject: [PRR] Architectural Drawings of Penn Station Baltimore? --0-1556926798-1035372892=:53842 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In the Spring, 1995, Vol. 28 #1 issue of the Keystone (I do not have it at my fingertips as I write this) there are some great scale drawings of Penn (Union) Stations Baltimore, Maryland that were redrawn by a gentleman whose name I do not recall. There is a great front elevation and details of each of the interior floors. Do any of you know how I can get in touch with the gentleman who redrew these station plans to see if he also has side and rear elevations for modeling purposes? I am sorry, I do not recall the name of the redrawer at this time. Randy Harrison --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site --0-1556926798-1035372892=:53842 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

In the Spring, 1995, Vol. 28 #1 issue of the Keystone (I do not have it at my fingertips as I write this) there are some great scale drawings of Penn (Union) Stations Baltimore, Maryland that were redrawn by a gentleman whose name I do not recall. There is a great front elevation and details of each of the interior floors. Do any of you know how I can get in touch with the gentleman who redrew these station plans to see if he also has side and rear elevations for modeling purposes? I am sorry, I do not recall the name of the redrawer at this time.

Randy Harrison


Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site --0-1556926798-1035372892=:53842-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 07:44:56 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Architectural Drawings of Penn Station Baltimore? From: Jerry Britton On 10/23/02 7:34 AM, Randolph Harrison (hbcrandy@yahoo.com) wrote: > In the Spring, 1995, Vol. 28 #1 issue of the Keystone (I do not have it at my > fingertips as I write this) there are some great scale drawings of Penn > (Union) Stations Baltimore, Maryland that were redrawn by a gentleman whose > name I do not recall. There is a great front elevation and details of each of > the interior floors. Do any of you know how I can get in touch with the > gentleman who redrew these station plans to see if he also has side and rear > elevations for modeling purposes? I am sorry, I do not recall the name of the > redrawer at this time. > I'll have to check, but at one point I was given AutoCAD drawings for the Baltimore station. I filed them somewhere, as I didn't have any software that could open them at the time. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bennett Levin Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 09:02:59 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] SK1b "Don't Stand Me Still" In the early weeks of PC, there was a jade green boxcar at 30th Streeet with one of the worms in "yellow". We all have seen the red worm, does anyone have a photo of the yellow one? RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > Encoding: 7bit ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/jd3IAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 09:02:59 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] SK1b "Don't Stand Me Still" In the early weeks of PC, there was a jade green boxcar at 30th Streeet with one of the worms in "yellow". We all have seen the red worm, does anyone have a photo of the yellow one? RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 09:06:56 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Trailer --part1_ac.2f8be199.2ae7f8f0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bethlehem Car Works does a 40' Pennsy Trailer-Train trailer, stock number SP-12. While these are a little pricy, they do make a very nice model, typical of the BCW products. The BCW site also list On-Trak trucks and accessories for 50 and earlier trucks. Merchandise Service handles the Bethlehem Car Works products. Support your friendly list host! Evan Leisey --part1_ac.2f8be199.2ae7f8f0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Bethlehem Car Works does a 40' Pennsy Trailer-Train trailer, stock number SP-12.   While these are a little pricy,  they do make a very nice model, typical of the BCW products.  The BCW site also list On-Trak trucks and accessories for 50 and earlier trucks.  Merchandise Service handles the Bethlehem Car Works products.  Support your friendly list host!

Evan Leisey --part1_ac.2f8be199.2ae7f8f0_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 09:36:55 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Locomotive Cyclopedias, Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh I recently noted that the Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh has editions 1, 3 - 11, and 13 of the Locomotive Cyclopedia, and then cracked wise, saying: Folks not in the Pittsburgh area: Eat your hearts out. OR Can you say "Interlibrary Loan"? Derrick Brashear noted that the catalog says the books are noncirculating, and from personal knowlege advises that when the Carnegie Library says "noncirculating" they mean "does not leave the building". ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:35:34 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] B70 Ben, Do you, (or anyone else) know anything about these trucks? Are they plastic, brass, silly putty? Are they they ECW trucks? ECW also makes PRR six wheel trucks, but they are very hard to hold together. The weight of the car invariably spreads the sideframes until the wheels fall in. I have had to glue a bottom plate across mine to get them to work and would dearly love to find something else. Keystone Loco Works used to make a PRR top equalized 6 wheel truck. Are they still available. Precision Scale had two varieties of PRR six wheel trucks. Are they still made? Does anyone have experience with them? Are they appropriate for the B-70 (to return to the original issue). -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Benjamin Frank Hom wrote: > Ben Hom wrote: > Bethlehem Car Works #123 @ $9.95 a pair: > > http://www.bethlehemcarworks.com > > Oops - the correct price is $19.95 - went off of their flyer which had a > typo. The price on the website is correct. > > Ben Hom > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] B70 Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 15:01:56 -0400 The trucks are white metal with metal wheelsets. We have a little better illustration on our web site at http://www.onerrave.com. Click on BETHLEHEM CAR WORKS then click on the description. BTW, the price shown is limited to trucks that are in stock. Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com Featuring over 10,000 IN-STOCK model railroad items 90A Jersey Avenue New Brunswick, NJ 08901 732-565-1555 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew S. Miller" To: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] B70 > Ben, > Do you, (or anyone else) know anything about these trucks? Are they > plastic, brass, silly putty? Are they they ECW trucks? ECW also makes > PRR six wheel trucks, but they are very hard to hold together. The weight > of the car invariably spreads the sideframes until the wheels fall in. I > have had to glue a bottom plate across mine to get them to work and would > dearly love to find something else. > > Keystone Loco Works used to make a PRR top equalized 6 wheel truck. Are > they still available. > > Precision Scale had two varieties of PRR six wheel trucks. Are they still > made? Does anyone have experience with them? Are they appropriate for the > B-70 (to return to the original issue). > > -- > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: [PRR] Naperville Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:13:10 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C27A9E.548A0CB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Anyone attending the 9th Prototype modelers Seminar this weekend in Naperville Il? Looks like another great lineup of clinics. If you see me introduce yourself please. Pete Reinhold P.S. The weather this weekend will be colder than the past few years, highs in the upper 40's / low 50's with some rain. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C27A9E.548A0CB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

 

  Anyone attending the 9th Prototype modelers Seminar this weekend in = Naperville = Il? Looks = like another great lineup of clinics. If you see me introduce = yourself please.

 

Pete Reinhold

 

P.S. The weather this weekend will be colder than the = past few years, highs in the upper 40’s / low 50’s with some = rain.

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C27A9E.548A0CB0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Cooper" Subject: [PRR] Portal Draw Bridge Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:59:56 -0700 I asked earlier about photos of Portal. If anyone else is interested, I found some photos at http://www.eorthe.com/02a_e_hack/18_portal.htm A model of portal about the width of a door jamb is scheduled for my layout. An ntsb report of the derailment there in '97 is at http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/1997/SIR9701.pdf (Hopefully I'll never have a re-enactment of that incident) John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 16:24:48 EDT Subject: [PRR] Off Subject - CNJ Festival --part1_149.1118cbd.2ae85f90_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Off of the CNJ-MODELER@yahoogroups.com: As the CNJ interchanged with both of the PRR and the Reading, some of you might be interested in this festival being held on Oct. 27, 02. Take the time to view the websites's photos. The Liberty State Park is conducting a history project of recording the retired CNJ railroaders' recollections. This came across my screen via the Railmarineops group www.cnjfestival.com Evan Leisey --part1_149.1118cbd.2ae85f90_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Off of the CNJ-MODELER@yahoogroups.com:

   As the CNJ interchanged with both of the PRR and the Reading, some of you might be interested in this festival being held on Oct. 27, 02.  Take the time to view the websites's photos.  The Liberty State Park is conducting a history project of recording the retired CNJ railroaders'  recollections.

   This came across my screen via the Railmarineops group www.cnjfestival.com

Evan Leisey --part1_149.1118cbd.2ae85f90_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 16:09:22 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] B70 Andy says: > Do you, (or anyone else) know anything about these trucks? Are they >plastic, brass, silly putty? Are they they ECW trucks? ECW also makes >PRR six wheel trucks, but they are very hard to hold together. The weight >of the car invariably spreads the sideframes until the wheels fall in. This is definitely a problem with ECW trucks...that and the absolutely terrible axle hole placement on the 4 wheel PRR truck. One solution is to use a glue call Cyanopoxy to put these together. Cyanopoxy bonds delrin and slippery plastics much better than classical ACC type cements. Part of the "secret" is a "prep" agent that you first paint on the joint. Pricey stuff, but it keeps forever in the refrig and you can get refills of just the cyanopoxy and accelerator. See Mike Rose's web site (http://www.mrhobby.com/Cyantips.html) or the September Mainline Modeler (IIRC). Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 17:33:45 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] ECW Trucks (was:B70) Bruce, The ECW trucks are styrene, not Delrin. Ordinary plastic cement holds them well enough. Their problem, as you know, is not in the glue joint coming apart, but rather in the side frame bending and thus spreading at the bottom as the weight of the car bears on the needlepoint bearing. My solution has been to glue a tie bar across the bottom of the trucks, tying the bottoms of the sideframes to each other and preventing the spread. On four wheel trucks, I have to drill a large hole in the center for access to the truck mounting screw. And yes, out of every 4 pairs of ECW PRR Roller Bearing trucks you buy, you only get 3 pairs to use. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "Bruce F. Smith" wrote: > Andy says: > > Do you, (or anyone else) know anything about these trucks? Are they > >plastic, brass, silly putty? Are they they ECW trucks? ECW also makes > >PRR six wheel trucks, but they are very hard to hold together. The weight > >of the car invariably spreads the sideframes until the wheels fall in. > > This is definitely a problem with ECW trucks...that and the absolutely > terrible axle hole placement on the 4 wheel PRR truck. One solution is to > use a glue call Cyanopoxy to put these together. Cyanopoxy bonds delrin > and slippery plastics much better than classical ACC type cements. Part of > the "secret" is a "prep" agent that you first paint on the joint. Pricey > stuff, but it keeps forever in the refrig and you can get refills of just > the cyanopoxy and accelerator. See Mike Rose's web site > (http://www.mrhobby.com/Cyantips.html) or the September Mainline Modeler > (IIRC). > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:56:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Locomotive Cyclopedias, Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh On Wed, 23 Oct 2002, robert netzlof wrote: > I recently noted that the Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh has editions > 1, 3 - 11, and 13 of the Locomotive Cyclopedia, and then cracked > wise, saying: > > Folks not in the Pittsburgh area: > Eat your hearts out. > OR > Can you say "Interlibrary Loan"? > > Derrick Brashear noted that the catalog says the books are > noncirculating, and from personal knowlege advises that when the > Carnegie Library says "noncirculating" they mean "does not leave the > building". In fairness I should admit that was from working in the CMU library system, as a student, which at this point has been a while ago; It's conceivable, at least, that Regional Assets District has changed that, but if so, expect it to only help you if you live somewhere in Allegheny County, so again, if you're not in the Pittsburgh area, you probably want to try elsewhere. Interlibrary loan would probably work, just not from CLP. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 19:28:26 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] ECW Trucks (was:B70) --part1_172.105ceaba.2ae88a9a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Another alternative -- albeit more costly -- would be to use a differnt manufacturer's truck. In HO, Keystone Locomotive Works offers a PRR 6-wheel truck (looks to be a top-equalized truck) and Precision Scale Company offers a Pennsy 4-wheel truck. I can't vouch for the quality or accuracy of these models, but they undoubtedly don't implode like the ECW versions I've been seeing discussed here. Chris Baker --part1_172.105ceaba.2ae88a9a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Another alternative -- albeit more costly -- would be to use a differnt manufacturer's truck.  In HO, Keystone Locomotive Works offers a PRR 6-wheel truck (looks to be a top-equalized truck) and Precision Scale Company offers a Pennsy 4-wheel truck.  I can't vouch for the quality or accuracy of these models, but they undoubtedly don't implode like the ECW versions I've been seeing discussed here.

Chris Baker --part1_172.105ceaba.2ae88a9a_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 19:41:32 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Architectural Drawings of Penn Station Baltimore? --part1_109.1ab6b897.2ae88dac_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In case anyone is unaware, there is a fairly accurate HO-scale model available based upon Baltimore Penn Station. The kit is comprised of numerous laser-cut acrylic sheets -- a pretty complex and detailed model. Still, it builds into a fantastic model. It's way better than Walther's Union Station kit for detail! The manufacturer is Custom Model Railroads (CMR) and their website is www.custommodelrailroads.com. Chris Baker --part1_109.1ab6b897.2ae88dac_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In case anyone is unaware, there is a fairly accurate HO-scale model available based upon Baltimore Penn Station.  The kit is comprised of numerous laser-cut acrylic sheets -- a pretty complex and detailed model.  Still, it builds into a fantastic model.  It's way better than Walther's Union Station kit for detail!  The manufacturer is Custom Model Railroads (CMR) and their website is www.custommodelrailroads.com.

Chris Baker --part1_109.1ab6b897.2ae88dac_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 20:33:08 EDT Subject: [PRR] Colored worms on PC house cars (PRR repaints?) --part1_181.10af6843.2ae899c4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/23/02 9:00:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net writes: > In the early weeks of PC, there was a jade green boxcar at 30th Streeet > with one of the worms in "yellow". We all have seen the red worm, does > anyone have a photo of the yellow one? Bennett, I assume you mean one worm was white and the other yellow. Certainly there were some strange variations fielded in the first weeks of PC, but I don't remember this one. I failed to find evidence of this in a first pass through my index of photo materials -- of course, among green house cars I did find examples of 1. Black worms (you also get black "Penn Central" with this variation) 2. top red, bottom white worms but I'm copying others who might be able to bring more light on the question. To bring this back to some PRR content, not everyone realizes that early PC cars were painted either in "PRR" data (Altoona) or "NYC" data (Big Four's Beech Grove and Peoria & Eastern's Danville Shops). This means that on early PC cars, you might see 1. PRR cars repainted with PRR data 2. PRR cars repainted with NYC data 3. NYC cars repainted with PRR data 4. NYC cars repainted with NYC data My personal favorite is to see any X29 rebuild (X29B, X29D, F, G, or L -- screams Pennsy) repainted with NYC data. If you're lucky, you also get the PC and car number in NYC Century gothic, and the carbody repainted in some of the zillion gallons of jade paint Beech Grove had to use up before they could order some Harbor Green as was PC standard. Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please) Wolf Penn Station 5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive Prospect, KY 40059-9197 --part1_181.10af6843.2ae899c4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/23/02 9:00:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net writes:


In the early weeks of PC, there was a jade green boxcar at 30th Streeet
with one of the worms in "yellow". We all have seen the red worm, does
anyone have a photo of the yellow one?


Bennett,

I assume you mean one worm was white and the other yellow.  Certainly there were some strange variations fielded in the first weeks of PC, but I don't remember this one.

I failed to find evidence of this in a first pass through my index of photo materials -- of course, among green house cars I did find examples of
1. Black worms (you also get black "Penn Central" with this variation)
2. top red, bottom white worms

but I'm copying others who might be able to bring more light on the question.

To bring this back to some PRR content, not everyone realizes that early PC cars were painted either in "PRR" data (Altoona) or "NYC" data (Big Four's Beech Grove and Peoria & Eastern's Danville Shops).  This means that on early PC cars, you might see
1. PRR cars repainted with PRR data
2. PRR cars repainted with NYC data
3. NYC cars repainted with PRR data
4. NYC cars repainted with NYC data

My personal favorite is to see any X29 rebuild (X29B, X29D, F, G, or L -- screams Pennsy) repainted with NYC data.  If you're lucky, you also get the PC and car number in NYC Century gothic, and the carbody repainted in some of the zillion gallons of jade paint Beech Grove had to use up before they could order some Harbor Green as was PC standard.

Rick Tipton
Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana.
Email RickTipton@aol.com
Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please)
Wolf Penn Station
5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive
Prospect, KY 40059-9197 --part1_181.10af6843.2ae899c4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 22:03:05 EDT Subject: [PRR] ECW trucks --part1_1bb.8408595.2ae8aed9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ditto the ECW side frame spreading and the need to add cross braces to prevent it. The ECW streamline core kit trucks will bend at just the thought of adding the car weight on them. It you have never tried the Tichy Train Group's bearing pockets you need to give them a try. The ECW side frames wear out very quickly when using axles with molded on wheels. Using the Tichy pockets extends the life of the ECW trucks to that of much more costly trucks. Also, in the cases where the axle pockets are not properly aligned, the use of these will allow that condition to be corrected. The Life-Like metal replacement wheels sets with plastic axles "appear" to lessen the side frame wear. The best solution for the use of the ECW trucks is to employ the Intermountain ball bearing wheel sets. Yes, I too winch at the cost when buying them but then the greatly improved performance is worth it. First, the trucks track much better reducing the wobble and derailing. Second, there is no concern about the truck's bearing pockets wearing out. Lastly, they roll unbelievably freely. A word of caution for those who have not used these wheel set -- they are somewhat delicate so installing and removing them requires care. When placing a car on the track, removing or rerailing requires attention to cars with these wheel sets. On lubrication. A trick I learned a few years ago that helps is to use a soft, graphite pencil. The graphite is applied without mess and does not attract foreign matter as do liquid lubes. Use a 2B or softer graphite pencil. Happy Modeling, Evan Leisey --part1_1bb.8408595.2ae8aed9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Ditto the ECW side frame spreading and the need to add cross braces to prevent it. The ECW streamline core kit trucks will bend at just the thought of adding the car weight on them.

  It you have never tried the Tichy Train Group's bearing pockets you need to give them a try.  The ECW side frames wear out very quickly when using axles with molded on wheels.  Using the Tichy pockets extends the life of the ECW trucks to that of much more costly trucks.   Also,  in the cases where the axle pockets are not properly aligned,  the use of these will allow that condition to be corrected.

   The Life-Like metal replacement wheels sets with plastic axles "appear" to lessen the side frame wear. 

   The best solution for the use of the ECW trucks is to employ the Intermountain ball bearing wheel sets.  Yes,  I too winch at the cost when buying them but then the greatly improved performance is worth it.  First, the trucks track much better reducing the wobble and derailing.  Second,  there is no concern about the truck's bearing pockets wearing out.  Lastly,  they roll unbelievably freely.   A word of caution for those who have not used these wheel set -- they are somewhat delicate so installing and removing them requires care.  When placing a car on the track, removing or rerailing requires attention to cars with these wheel sets.

   On lubrication.   A trick I learned a few years ago that helps is to use a soft, graphite pencil.  The graphite is applied without mess and does not attract foreign matter as do liquid lubes.  Use a 2B or softer graphite pencil.

Happy Modeling,

Evan Leisey --part1_1bb.8408595.2ae8aed9_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 20:33:08 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Colored worms on PC house cars (PRR repaints?) In a message dated 10/23/02 9:00:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net writes: > In the early weeks of PC, there was a jade green boxcar at 30th Streeet > with one of the worms in "yellow". We all have seen the red worm, does > anyone have a photo of the yellow one? Bennett, I assume you mean one worm was white and the other yellow. Certainly there were some strange variations fielded in the first weeks of PC, but I don't remember this one. I failed to find evidence of this in a first pass through my index of photo materials -- of course, among green house cars I did find examples of 1. Black worms (you also get black "Penn Central" with this variation) 2. top red, bottom white worms but I'm copying others who might be able to bring more light on the question. To bring this back to some PRR content, not everyone realizes that early PC cars were painted either in "PRR" data (Altoona) or "NYC" data (Big Four's Beech Grove and Peoria & Eastern's Danville Shops). This means that on early PC cars, you might see 1. PRR cars repainted with PRR data 2. PRR cars repainted with NYC data 3. NYC cars repainted with PRR data 4. NYC cars repainted with NYC data My personal favorite is to see any X29 rebuild (X29B, X29D, F, G, or L -- screams Pennsy) repainted with NYC data. If you're lucky, you also get the PC and car number in NYC Century gothic, and the carbody repainted in some of the zillion gallons of jade paint Beech Grove had to use up before they could order some Harbor Green as was PC standard. Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please) Wolf Penn Station 5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive Prospect, KY 40059-9197 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Plan to Sell a Home? http://us.click.yahoo.com/J2SnNA/y.lEAA/jd3IAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: [PRR] PRR 4 Wheel Trucks Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:23:46 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C27ADA.78677320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All! I have Precision Scale Co's 4 Wheel Trucks. For those who need to know: = They are brass, with nickel steel wheels, fully sprung; part number = 33179. Forgive my laymanship type words, but when taken in hand, they = wiggle, wobble just fine. They roll beautifully on a flat table and on = a 3' track. I have not installed them on a car and run them on a layout = - but see no reason why they would not perform flawlessly. Need paint. = I believe them to be PRR 2D-P5 with friction bearings. Used on P70's = etc.; see below. Retail $18.50 on 7/2/02 when purchased (I paid $16 or = so with discount). I also have those darn ECW 4 Wheel Trucks. Part number 9001, 2D-P5 R. = Cost $5.00. I put Proto 2000 (part number 21257) 36" wheels in them, = and the "unmounted" trucks roll fine. Seem to have the axle holes in = the right place. (Incidentally I also have the ECW 6 Wheel Trucks - = again with Proto 2000 35" wheels; and they roll fine, too). But - and = this is a biggy! None of these trucks are mounted, so I don't know how = well they hold up. And maybe I was lucky with these "darn" ECW trucks, = the axle holes are correctly aligned and the wheels have not dropped out = - yet! HA! or LOL or "keep my fingers crossed!"=20 Hope this helps some. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C27ADA.78677320 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi All!
 
I have Precision Scale Co's 4 = Wheel=20 Trucks.  For those who need to know: They are brass, with nickel = steel=20 wheels, fully sprung; part number 33179.  Forgive my laymanship = type words,=20 but when taken in hand, they wiggle, wobble just fine.  They roll=20 beautifully on a flat table and on a 3' track.  I have not = installed them=20 on a car and run them on a layout - but see no reason why they would not = perform=20 flawlessly.  Need paint.  I believe them to be PRR 2D-P5 with = friction=20 bearings.  Used on P70's etc.; see below.  Retail $18.50 on = 7/2/02=20 when purchased (I paid $16 or so with discount).
 
I also have those darn ECW 4 = Wheel=20 Trucks.  Part number 9001, 2D-P5 R.  Cost $5.00.  I = put=20 Proto 2000 (part number 21257) 36" wheels in them, and the "unmounted" = trucks=20 roll fine.  Seem to have the axle holes in the right place. =20 (Incidentally I also have the ECW 6 Wheel Trucks - again with Proto 2000 = 35"=20 wheels; and they roll fine, too).  But =97 and this is a=20 biggy!  None of these trucks are mounted, so I don't know=20 how well they hold up.  And maybe I was lucky with these = "darn" ECW=20 trucks, the axle holes are correctly aligned and the wheels have = not=20 dropped out =97 yet!  HA! or LOL or "keep my fingers=20 crossed!" 
 
Hope this helps = some.
 
Morgan = Bilbo
Ferroequinologist
PRRTHS=20 #1204 and SPF
------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C27ADA.78677320-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] ECW trucks Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:31:11 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C27ADB.819D6E80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi! Thanks for the input re ECW side frames, etc. I also have those = Intermountain ball-bearing wheels, but 33". Need 36" for passenger = trucks. A great big "second" to the use of graphite. I was/am lucky = enough to have a drafting pencil with many leads, 2 through 5 or = whatever. And, I have always used the shavings from the #2 lead. By = using drafting pencil leads, there is no wood shavings like from a wood = pencil. Probably can buy "just the leads" in a drafting store. Is = there such a thing anymore? Are there still "draftsmen"? Keep the Wheels on the Rails! Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C27ADB.819D6E80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi!
 
Thanks for the input re ECW side = frames,=20 etc.  I also have those Intermountain ball-bearing wheels, but = 33". =20 Need 36" for passenger trucks.  A great big "second" to the use of=20 graphite.  I was/am lucky enough to have a drafting pencil with = many leads,=20 2 through 5 or whatever.  And, I have always used the shavings from = the #2=20 lead.  By using drafting pencil leads, there is no wood = shavings like=20 from a wood pencil.  Probably can buy "just the leads" in a = drafting=20 store.  Is there such a thing anymore?  Are there still=20 "draftsmen"?
 
Keep the Wheels on the = Rails!
 
Morgan = Bilbo
Ferroequinologist
PRRTHS=20 #1204 and SPF
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C27ADB.819D6E80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 23:11:26 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 4 Wheel Trucks --part1_7c.30281938.2ae8bede_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wonder if Bachmann/Spectrum HO-scale trucks could be obtained from the manufacturer? I've heard that Bachmann is fussy about distributing parts in many instances. Are their trucks any better than the ECW ones? Chris Baker --part1_7c.30281938.2ae8bede_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wonder if Bachmann/Spectrum HO-scale trucks could be obtained from the manufacturer?  I've heard that Bachmann is fussy about distributing parts in many instances.  Are their trucks any better than the ECW ones?

Chris Baker --part1_7c.30281938.2ae8bede_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 00:22:04 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] ECW trucks Depending on what truck you are looking for, perhaps one of the Bachmann 6-wheel trucks may be used, if you can accept the detail level. To get my brass BM70 to run without shorting, I replaced the brass trucks with those off a spare Bachmann diner. I may put the brass trucks under a resin or styrene kit car (or the diner which I may put NKP carco sides on). The Bachmann trucks run well in the application. And you can probably get a Bachmann car in one of the oddball roadnames at a price lower than a lot of other alternatives for the trucks alone. Even if you throw away the body, you may be money ahead :-). Bob Zoeller Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 07:51:24 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 4 Wheel Trucks >I wonder if Bachmann/Spectrum HO-scale trucks could be obtained from the >manufacturer? I've heard that Bachmann is fussy about distributing parts >in many instances. Are their trucks any better than the ECW ones? Chris >Baker Chris, They will not sell them as seperate parts :^( However, they will sell you "replacement parts" for ones that have been "broken"...if you get my drift ;^) I've never tried this with wheels but I have purchased other parts from them this way. The trucks themselves appear to be reasonably detailed and hold up well to use in my experience (which is somewhat limited) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:21:54 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 4 Wheel Trucks There 4 and 6 wheel trucks (and K4 tender trucks) are wonderful, and unfortunately, unavailable. Bachmann does not sell parts (except for their awful couplers). :-(( Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Chrisandbelton2@aol.com wrote: > I wonder if Bachmann/Spectrum HO-scale trucks could be obtained from > the manufacturer? I've heard that Bachmann is fussy about > distributing parts in many instances. Are their trucks any better > than the ECW ones? > > Chris Baker ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:37:33 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR trailer Thanks to all,especially Al Stump, for help with my questions on the above. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:25:17 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] ECW trucks From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3118296317_144242_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ECW trucks will come apart when you look at them cross eyed. You don't need to put car weight on them. But seriously, I built a couple of their depressed center flat cars. The trucks fell apart several times while I was trying to install wheelsets, and I actually considered drilling in from the outside and gluing a piece of brass rod in place to give some support. They have stayed together now for a couple of months, but have not yet run on a layout, so we'll see. I may have to resort to the brass. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- From: RDG2124@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] ECW trucks Date: Wed, 23 Oct, 2002, 21:03 Ditto the ECW side frame spreading and the need to add cross braces to prevent it. The ECW streamline core kit trucks will bend at just the thought of adding the car weight on them. It you have never tried the Tichy Train Group's bearing pockets you need to give them a try. The ECW side frames wear out very quickly when using axles with molded on wheels. Using the Tichy pockets extends the life of the ECW trucks to that of much more costly trucks. Also, in the cases where the axle pockets are not properly aligned, the use of these will allow that condition to be corrected. The Life-Like metal replacement wheels sets with plastic axles "appear" to lessen the side frame wear. The best solution for the use of the ECW trucks is to employ the Intermountain ball bearing wheel sets. Yes, I too winch at the cost when buying them but then the greatly improved performance is worth it. First, the trucks track much better reducing the wobble and derailing. Second, there is no concern about the truck's bearing pockets wearing out. Lastly, they roll unbelievably freely. A word of caution for those who have not used these wheel set -- they are somewhat delicate so installing and removing them requires care. When placing a car on the track, removing or rerailing requires attention to cars with these wheel sets. On lubrication. A trick I learned a few years ago that helps is to use a soft, graphite pencil. The graphite is applied without mess and does not attract foreign matter as do liquid lubes. Use a 2B or softer graphite pencil. Happy Modeling, Evan Leisey --MS_Mac_OE_3118296317_144242_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR]  ECW trucks ECW trucks will come apart when you look at them cross eyed.  You don'= t need to put car weight on them.

But seriously, I built a couple of their depressed center flat cars.  = The trucks fell apart several times while I was trying to install wheelsets,= and I actually considered drilling in from the outside and gluing a piece o= f brass rod in place to give some support.  They have stayed together n= ow for a couple of months, but have not yet run on a layout, so we'll see. &= nbsp;I may have to resort to the brass.

Don Harper
Texas A&M Marine Lab
5007 Avenue U
Galveston, TX  77551
409/740-4540


----------
From: RDG2124@aol.com
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR]  ECW trucks
Date: Wed, 23 Oct, 2002, 21:03


  Ditto the ECW side frame spreadi= ng and the need to add cross braces to prevent it. The ECW streamline core k= it trucks will bend at just the thought of adding the car weight on them.
  It you have never tried the Tichy Train Group's bearing pockets= you need to give them a try.  The ECW side frames wear out very quickl= y when using axles with molded on wheels.  Using the Tichy pockets exte= nds the life of the ECW trucks to that of much more costly trucks.  &nb= sp;Also,  in the cases where the axle pockets are not properly aligned,=  the use of these will allow that condition to be corrected.

   The Life-Like metal replacement wheels sets with plastic = axles "appear" to lessen the side frame wear.  

   The best solution for the use of the ECW trucks is to emp= loy the Intermountain ball bearing wheel sets.  Yes,  I too winch = at the cost when buying them but then the greatly improved performance is wo= rth it.  First, the trucks track much better reducing the wobble and de= railing.  Second,  there is no concern about the truck's bearing p= ockets wearing out.  Lastly,  they roll unbelievably freely.  = ; A word of caution for those who have not used these wheel set -- they= are somewhat delicate so installing and removing them requires care.  = When placing a car on the track, removing or rerailing requires attention to= cars with these wheel sets.

   On lubrication.   A trick I learned a few years= ago that helps is to use a soft, graphite pencil.  The graphite is app= lied without mess and does not attract foreign matter as do liquid lubes. &n= bsp;Use a 2B or softer graphite pencil.

Happy Modeling,

Evan Leisey
--MS_Mac_OE_3118296317_144242_MIME_Part-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 11:27:27 -0400 Subject: [PRR] "Susquehannok" Excursion From: Jerry Britton Anyone go on the Harrisburg to Clearfield excursion this past weekend? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 17:12:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Will Subject: [PRR] OFF TOPIC : Railroad Terror Threat News Report http://www.msnbc.com/local/wnbc/A1366750.asp?0na=x2201Cr3 Actual FBI Press Release.... http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel02/nlets102402.htm May be a very good time to keep a close eye on your favorite train watching spots from a distance with a cell phone handy. Possibly even notify the local law enforcement agency that you will be doing so and ask for advice on how to stay out of the way and who to contact in the event that you do see anything suspicious. Will Semanchuk-Enser Blue Moon Internet Corp General Manager www.bluemoon.net Internet Access & Web Hosting www.railfan.net Railfan Network Services ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PGrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] ECW trucks Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 22:44:02 +0100 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C27BAE.D967F530 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] ECW trucksThe ECW trucks compared with a couple of designs I = have come accross in the UK/Europe appear not to be too bad!, at least the 3 sets I have are... The worst I have found are UGJ models where you need to turn-down axles = to make them short enough, as they supply plastic moulded axles this means that aftermarket wheelsets are = needed... Patrick Grace ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Donald E. Harper, Jr=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 3:25 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] ECW trucks ECW trucks will come apart when you look at them cross eyed. You = don't need to put car weight on them. But seriously, I built a couple of their depressed center flat cars. = The trucks fell apart several times while I was trying to install = wheelsets, and I actually considered drilling in from the outside and = gluing a piece of brass rod in place to give some support. They have = stayed together now for a couple of months, but have not yet run on a = layout, so we'll see. I may have to resort to the brass. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- From: RDG2124@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] ECW trucks Date: Wed, 23 Oct, 2002, 21:03 Ditto the ECW side frame spreading and the need to add cross = braces to prevent it. The ECW streamline core kit trucks will bend at = just the thought of adding the car weight on them. It you have never tried the Tichy Train Group's bearing pockets = you need to give them a try. The ECW side frames wear out very quickly = when using axles with molded on wheels. Using the Tichy pockets extends = the life of the ECW trucks to that of much more costly trucks. Also, = in the cases where the axle pockets are not properly aligned, the use = of these will allow that condition to be corrected. The Life-Like metal replacement wheels sets with plastic axles = "appear" to lessen the side frame wear. =20 The best solution for the use of the ECW trucks is to employ the = Intermountain ball bearing wheel sets. Yes, I too winch at the cost = when buying them but then the greatly improved performance is worth it. = First, the trucks track much better reducing the wobble and derailing. = Second, there is no concern about the truck's bearing pockets wearing = out. Lastly, they roll unbelievably freely. A word of caution for = those who have not used these wheel set -- they are somewhat delicate so = installing and removing them requires care. When placing a car on the = track, removing or rerailing requires attention to cars with these wheel = sets. On lubrication. A trick I learned a few years ago that helps is = to use a soft, graphite pencil. The graphite is applied without mess = and does not attract foreign matter as do liquid lubes. Use a 2B or = softer graphite pencil.=20 Happy Modeling, Evan Leisey=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C27BAE.D967F530 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] =A0ECW trucks
The ECW trucks compared with a couple = of designs I=20 have come accross in the UK/Europe appear not to
be too bad!, at least the 3 sets I have = are...
 
The worst I have found are UGJ models = where you=20 need to turn-down axles to make them short enough, as they
supply plastic moulded axles this means = that=20 aftermarket wheelsets are needed...
 
Patrick Grace
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Donald E.=20 Harper, Jr
Sent: Thursday, October 24, = 2002 3:25=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] ECW = trucks

ECW trucks will come apart when you look at them cross = eyed.=20  You don't need to put car weight on them.

But seriously, = I built=20 a couple of their depressed center flat cars.  The trucks fell = apart=20 several times while I was trying to install wheelsets, and I actually=20 considered drilling in from the outside and gluing a piece of brass = rod in=20 place to give some support.  They have stayed together now for a = couple=20 of months, but have not yet run on a layout, so we'll see.  I may = have to=20 resort to the brass.

Don Harper
Texas A&M Marine = Lab
5007=20 Avenue U
Galveston, TX=20  77551
409/740-4540


----------
From:=20 RDG2124@aol.com
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR]  ECW=20 trucks
Date: Wed, 23 Oct, 2002, 21:03


  Ditto the ECW side frame = spreading=20 and the need to add cross braces to prevent it. The ECW streamline = core kit=20 trucks will bend at just the thought of adding the car weight on=20 them.

  It you have never tried the Tichy Train = Group's=20 bearing pockets you need to give them a try.  The ECW side = frames wear=20 out very quickly when using axles with molded on wheels.  Using = the=20 Tichy pockets extends the life of the ECW trucks to that of much = more costly=20 trucks.   Also,  in the cases where the axle pockets = are not=20 properly aligned,  the use of these will allow that condition = to be=20 corrected.

   The Life-Like metal replacement = wheels=20 sets with plastic axles "appear" to lessen the side frame wear.=20  

   The best solution for the use of the = ECW=20 trucks is to employ the Intermountain ball bearing wheel sets. =  Yes,=20  I too winch at the cost when buying them but then the greatly = improved=20 performance is worth it.  First, the trucks track much better = reducing=20 the wobble and derailing.  Second,  there is no concern = about the=20 truck's bearing pockets wearing out.  Lastly,  they roll=20 unbelievably freely.   A word of caution for those who = have not=20 used these wheel set -- they are somewhat delicate so installing and = removing them requires care.  When placing a car on the track, = removing=20 or rerailing requires attention to cars with these wheel=20 sets.

   On lubrication.   A trick I = learned=20 a few years ago that helps is to use a soft, graphite pencil. =  The=20 graphite is applied without mess and does not attract foreign matter = as do=20 liquid lubes.  Use a 2B or softer graphite pencil. =

Happy=20 Modeling,

Evan Leisey =
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C27BAE.D967F530-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 19:04:12 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] ECW trucks --part1_16.2746aa97.2ae9d66c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On the matter of obtaining Spectrum cars at low cost: everything I've seen on eBay has been for a moderate price -- not low ($20 and up). On occasion I've seen these cars at swap meets and railroad shows, but never for less than $16 - $20 a piece. Still, that is probably cheaper than the brass ones.... --part1_16.2746aa97.2ae9d66c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On the matter of obtaining Spectrum cars at low cost:  everything I've seen on eBay has been for a moderate price -- not low ($20 and up).  On occasion I've seen these cars at swap meets and railroad shows, but never for less than $16 - $20 a piece.  Still, that is probably cheaper than the brass ones.... --part1_16.2746aa97.2ae9d66c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 21:28:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] OFF TOPIC : Railroad Terror Threat From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" on 10/24/02 5:12 PM, Will at alcoman@net.bluemoon.net wrote: > News Report > > http://www.msnbc.com/local/wnbc/A1366750.asp?0na=x2201Cr3 > > Actual FBI Press Release.... > > http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel02/nlets102402.htm > > > May be a very good time to keep a close eye on your favorite train > watching spots from a distance with a cell phone handy. > > Possibly even notify the local law enforcement agency that you will be > doing so and ask for advice on how to stay out of the way and who to > contact in the event that you do see anything suspicious. > Yeah, I had received a NIPC briefing earlier in the day, but couldn't say anything until it was public. They found documents, including photos, etc., in materials recovered. They are keying on creating derailments of toxic substances, plus taking out bridges and other key rail locations. The Rockville Bridge HAS to be on the list! I would also think the tubes under the Hudson would be a prime target. I thought about them when they issued the warning about SCUBA trained Al Queada many months ago. But don't overreact. They've found documents before that haven't panned out thus far. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 07:08:40 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] 2003 PRR Annual Meeting Hi All, I attended a planning meeting for the 2003 PRR annual meeting on Wednesday night. It is going to be in Tinicum Pa, right next to the Philadelphia airport. It was nice to see the facility early. Vendors note - the selling room has LOTS of space. I have never seen one this big before at a PRR event. There are trips and events in the planning stages; some of which have never happened at a PRR event. I decided after going to the conventions for 14 years now, that volunteering for 1 hour was NOT ENOUGH. I see the same great people WORKING time and time again. It is THEIR vacation too. I had to give back! I am involved with the modeling room. I will be photographing all the models. Gary Spear gspear@erols.com has been very gracious to head the model room. This will be the second year that someone else managed it other then John Johnson, who did it for 15+ years. John got a well-deserved retirement from the position. It is not too early to put your name on one of the "Yes, I want to help" lists. Contact Al Buchan abbuchan1@comcast.net or Al Giantonnio alandtinag@rcn.com to get started on planning and working at YOUR convention Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 07:54:08 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Off-Topic Special request Listers, Due to other work-related commitments (NS shorthanding dispatcher positions) my dispatcher will be unable to make my op session. This jeprodizes the ability to hold an op session. My Dispatcher controls most mainline turnouts from his location. He has suggested that I recruit a backup dispatcher for the November session. I want to know if anyone on this list will be interested in acting as our dispatcherfor my 11/16 op session? Please contact me off-list if you are interested. We will need to meet prior to the session. Thanks, Nick Kulp caseyj@igateway.com http://www.igateway.com X-SpamDetect: low: Possible Junk Mail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 16:48:58 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: [HarrisRailFan] Station for Sale From: Jerry Britton Forward from the "HarrisRailFan" list... On 10/25/02 4:03 PM, "Nsswitcher@aol.com" wrote: > Selinsgrove station (ex PRR) will be sold at auction Nov. 7th, at 7PM > > for more info go to: > > http://www.west2k.com/papix/selinsgrove.jpg > --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 16:58:59 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Books Now Out From: Jerry Britton Public Service Announcement.... The following books are now available: HUNDMAN PUBLISHING: "Pennsy Diesels 1924-1968: A-6 to EF-36". 256 pages. Hardcover. FOUR WAYS WEST: "Pennsylvania Railroad Color Pictorial - Volume Three" by David Sweetland. This book looks at the PRR steam locomotive classes operating during the 1940's and 1950's. Our color photograph trip starts in the "Windy City" of Chicago and moves over the fast Fort Wayne Line. At Pittsburgh, we stop to visit two steam shortlines related to the PRR and then move to the mountain city of Altoona. From Altoona to Harrisburg, the multi-track mainline had a plentiful supply of steam and diesel powered trains. Side trips to Sandusky, Sodus Point and Shamokin give us the opportunity to view large Pennsy steam power hauling coal and ore trains. Our photographic trip finally ends in Camden, N.J., where steam remained in force until 1957 mixed with Baldwin diesels and several oil-electric cars. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 19:53:30 EDT Subject: [PRR] Off Subj.: frt car --part1_136.1621beca.2aeb337a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lists, I am trying to locate at least six of the Walthers HO scale 46 foot USRA gondola car (SKU: 932-7450) undecorated and unopened. Does anyone know of a shop that still has these in stock. Walthers is out-of-stock on these with no date set for a rerun, if at all? Many thanks, Evan Leisey --part1_136.1621beca.2aeb337a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lists,

  I am trying to locate at least six of the Walthers HO scale 46 foot USRA gondola car (SKU: 932-7450) undecorated and unopened.  Does anyone know of a shop that still has these in stock.  Walthers is out-of-stock on these with no date set for a rerun, if at all?

Many thanks,

Evan Leisey --part1_136.1621beca.2aeb337a_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 07:08:40 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] 2003 PRR Annual Meeting Hi All, I attended a planning meeting for the 2003 PRR annual meeting on Wednesday night. It is going to be in Tinicum Pa, right next to the Philadelphia airport. It was nice to see the facility early. Vendors note - the selling room has LOTS of space. I have never seen one this big before at a PRR event. There are trips and events in the planning stages; some of which have never happened at a PRR event. I decided after going to the conventions for 14 years now, that volunteering for 1 hour was NOT ENOUGH. I see the same great people WORKING time and time again. It is THEIR vacation too. I had to give back! I am involved with the modeling room. I will be photographing all the models. Gary Spear gspear@erols.com has been very gracious to head the model room. This will be the second year that someone else managed it other then John Johnson, who did it for 15+ years. John got a well-deserved retirement from the position. It is not too early to put your name on one of the "Yes, I want to help" lists. Contact Al Buchan abbuchan1@comcast.net or Al Giantonnio alandtinag@rcn.com to get started on planning and working at YOUR convention Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/jd3IAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: nuts4prr@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 09:29:10 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR X60 86' High Cubes Guys, I am interested in building an early version of one of the PRR X60 86' High Cube boxcars. Some of these came equipped with roofwalks and high ladders. See Color Guide 2 p56. What I am after is info and more pictures of these. Specifically I need an overhead shot to show :- a. what type of roofwalk was used b. what was the arrangement of the roof walk c. what was the arrangement of the B end brake gear. Thanx in advance, Graeme Nitz An Expatriate Aussie Living in Tulsa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Plan to Sell a Home? http://us.click.yahoo.com/J2SnNA/y.lEAA/jd3IAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 17:08:50 EDT Subject: [PRR] Rolly-Polly Pennsy Glasses The Pennsy Dining Car Service used to sell a pack of six large drink glasses, the same ones used in the bar cars. The glasses were almost ball shaped (10,12 , maybe 14 ounces), heavy, with a red PRR keystone. Doesn't anyone still manufacture/sell these glasses? Can you provide a source? Thanks, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 22:28:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] RE: (PRR) Cabin Car Collision Posts Hi Pete, Just came back from a hard days work on the restoration of the societie's N5c. As promised I have the dimensions of the collision post. It is made of 1/2" thick steel channel. If you are standing at the end of the cabin looking at it , the face of the channel is 4 " wide. The depth is 8 7/8". On a side note. While burning off the end rails in preparation for proper relocation, we noticed that the conrail blue paint was peeling because of the heating with a torch. What we really noticed was when we peeled this paint off by hand it came off in a 3"X3" swatch. On one side was the burnt CR Blue color. But on the side that was attached to the angle railing was the brightest shade of Focal Orange one could imagine. We saved these but, Dang, I forgot it at the work site. I will scan this swatch just to show everyone how bright Focal Orange actually was. Stay tuned next weekend. Great for reference!......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 05:56:24 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Bowser N scale N5 and H21a Hello list, Due to a family member's interest in N scale, I just purchased a Bowser N5 (477111, Eastern region) in the 1940s scheme and an H21a (188200) in the circle Keystone scheme. These are only my 2nd and 3rd N scale cars, so some of my "observations" may seem simplistic. In short, I like both of the cars. Bowser includes directions on the packages for the appropriate Micro Trains coupler to use. The rapido couplers are huge, but durable. The N5 has window glass (unlike the HO models, where it's an accessory), and there are drill spots on the underside of the roof for an antenna set (just like the HO models). The N5 has a weight built into the window glass assembly; the H21 doesn't have weight that I've found; if necessary, I would hide some weight under the coal load. Both cars have nice trucks; my only real gripe with these cars is that the wheelsets seem to drop out of the trucks almost at random. Is this normal for N scale? Where could I get metal wheels if I wanted them? I remain happily ensconced in HO scale, but the appearance of these cars has opened my eyes to the possibilities in N scale. If somebody marketed a die cast or plastic K4s (the old Minitrix K4s being not bad, but out of production, and somewhat challenging to tune up)up to the standards of Kato's N scale Mike, I would be severely tempted.... Doug __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 06:04:18 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Bowser windows for HO N5 and N5c Hello list, Aside from the arrival of my N scale cars, I ordered a bunch of other parts from Bowser. Amongst them were the 54040 windows for the N5 and 54033 windows for the N5c. I've just installed one set of each, and my experience follows. The sets fit well; they're injection molded clear plastic; all but the cupola windows on the N5c area a drop in fit. The N5c cupola end windows required a little pressure to pop them into place. I secured all my windows with liquid plastic cement. Once installed, the windows fit flush with the carbody and cupola sides. Because they're fairly thick, the windows aren't truly transparent. To me this is not the end of the world; I have installed clear styrene on one of my N5c cabin cars, and the non-flush position of the window glass bothered me more than the translucent nature of these new windows. At $2.50 a set, I think I more than got my money's worth. Doug __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 12:37:07 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser N scale N5 and H21a From: Jerry Britton On 10/27/02 8:56 AM, "Doug Kisala" wrote: > Both cars have nice trucks; my only real gripe with > these cars is that the wheelsets seem to drop out of > the trucks almost at random. Is this normal for N > scale? Where could I get metal wheels if I wanted > them? > Wheelsets dropping out is not the norm. Metal wheelsets are available from a variety of manufacturers, including InterMountain. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 21:30:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Re: (PRR) Cabin Car Collision Posts Pete, Hmmm, good question. Not sure if there is FCC showing underneath or not. I don't think so though. After climbing all over the N5c in the past months the colors found so far (in order of layers) was CR Blue, PC Green and Focal Orange. No site of FCC anywhere. May have been completely sand blasted of old paint prior to the Focal Orange coat. But will keep an eye out for that rare FCC.spotting!....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Strasburg Railroad photo Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 08:58:08 -0600 What els is interesting about the picture is the car. It is a Plymouth with fins, 1956, marketed by Chrysler as its "Forward Look". -----Original Message----- From: David Luciano [mailto:davesrr@snip.net] Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 10:36 PM To: Bill Lane Cc: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg Railroad photo Forgive my typing The doodlebug I have listed below should be Lancaster, Oxford, & Southern Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: David Luciano To: Bill Lane Cc: PRR-Talk Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 11:22 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg Railroad photo > Hi Bill, > > This is an early picture at the Strasburg Railroad before the current > station buildings were > constructed. The Shay you see in the background is part of the Railroad > Musuem of PA > collection. It is sitting on one of the tracks parallel to Rt 741 & across > from Strasburg Railroad. > The locomotive collection sat outside on these tracks before the Musuem > building was > constructed. There is an aerial photograph of the locomotive collection > sitting outside > on these tracks in an early publication of the Milepost put out by the > Friends of the > Railroad Museum. > > Also in the background behind the PRR D16 is Strasburg Railroad's PRR ND > caboose > & behind that is their gas powered Lancaster, Southern & Oxford doodlebug. > > > Dave Luciano > Strasburg Model Railroad Club > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Lane > To: PRR Talk > Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 10:53 PM > Subject: [PRR] Strasburg Railroad photo > > > > Hi All, > > > > In my usual obsessive Ebay searches for all things PRR, I came upon this > > photo of the Strasburg Railroad ex-PRR D-16. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=725145833 The photo > did > > not become interesting to me until I noticed that there was a SHAY in the > > background. Since a Shay is a little far off the PRR tracks, please reply > to > > me with what you may know about it. > > > > BTW, I do not know the seller. > > > > Bill > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 09:00:24 -0800 From: Peter Weiglin Subject: [PRR] New Pennsy Diesels Book New book from Hundman Publishing: Pennsy Diesels 1924-1968, by Kenneth L. Douglas and Peter C. Weiglin. Short description: In one volume - the complete story of the PRR diesel fleet. 3000+ locomotoves; almost every model made. The book contains a thorough class-by-class analysis of equipment and assignments. Contains a detailed unit roster, and roster of dispositions. Pertinent sharp photos throughout. A valuable reference work for the modeler and the historian. ISBN 0-945434-68-5 250 pp. 300+ photos Price $55.95 Available at your dealer, or call 1-800-810-7660 Dealer Inquiries Invited. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:56:51 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Dispatcher hired for Harrisburg, Pa 11/16 op session Listers, I wish to thank those of you that inquired about the Dispatcher position request for my op session on 11/16. I have "hired" someone that qualified (he wanted the job). There are still a few positions open for the session and I will close the bids on 11/6 for those that are interested. If you wish to bid on a position please contact me off-list at caseyj@igateway.com Thanks, Nick Kulp http://www.igateway.com X-SpamDetect: high: , ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don Millbranth" Subject: [PRR] P,FW&C stock Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:11:28 -0600 Has anyone ever seen, or heard of, any "Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne and Chicago Railway Company" stock certificates? Thanks, Don ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 14:53:58 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] P,FW&C stock I'm sure they might show up on eBay as it was the later company successor to the PFW&C RR. Al ======================== Has anyone ever seen, or heard of, any "Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne and Chicago Railway Company" stock certificates? Thanks, Don ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] BLI "J" Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 21:21:08 +0000 Anybody have any update on the production models delivery schedule yet? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:53:46 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI "J" From: Jerry Britton On 10/28/02 4:21 PM, "ndbprr@att.net" wrote: > Anybody have any update on the production models delivery schedule yet? > There web site now shows "rows and rows" of them with the statement that they will ship before the end of October, as planned (this time around, anyway). --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI "J Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:27:52 -0500 Their website also claims that they will have a sample of the N&W Class A on display at Trainfest which is held at the Wisconsin State Fair grounds. Although a Pennsy modeler, I really like the N&W engines, especially the Class A. Is anyone on the list going to Trainfest? Also, any chance the Class A will make it out before the New Year. Eric > [Original Message] > From: Jerry Britton > To: PRR-Talk ; > Date: 10/28/02 4:53:46 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI "J > > On 10/28/02 4:21 PM, "ndbprr@att.net" wrote: > > > Anybody have any update on the production models delivery schedule yet? > > > There web site now shows "rows and rows" of them with the statement that > they will ship before the end of October, as planned (this time around, > anyway). > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > > "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of > Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana > products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", > the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- > Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are > providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit > our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --- Eric Lauterbach --- ealauterbach@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Randy Williamson" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI "J Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:49:46 -0600 I think you will find a few of us cheesehead PRR-Talk people at Trainfest. Randy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:52:51 EST Subject: [PRR] New PRR cars coming Had the chance to attend the Prototype Modelers get together in Naperville Ill. this last weekend. In the display area EEL river had their new G-39 PRR ore jenny on display. It was a test shot of the one piece body which includes sides, ends and pusk brackets. The floor will be a seperate piece. Holes for ladders were visible. No price or time of availability were available. A new company ( at least to me ) Modelers Choice had samples of their laser cut sides and seperate ribs for their upcoming X-58. Again no idea on price or availability. ----------- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI "J Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:25:50 -0600 And us cheeseheads will see some PRR-Talk folks from the flatlands at the show too. See you there. Pete Reinhold -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Randy Williamson Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 4:50 PM To: prr-talk Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI "J I think you will find a few of us cheesehead PRR-Talk people at Trainfest. Randy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI "J Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 18:19:10 -0500 A first hand account of the BLI Class A would be greatly appreciated. I think I am going to go poor with between the M1b, Class A, GG1, and T1. I have heard rumors of other companies coming out with a GG1, including a metal one. I wonder if we still see that or will they move on to other engines. Thanks, Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: FW: [PRR] New PRR cars coming Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:31:40 -0600 Hi, Ken IIRC that was a G39a. If I'm wrong make my death a quick one. Nice test shot though and a model needed in great numbers by many PRR modelers. Pete Reinhold ---------- Had the chance to attend the Prototype Modelers get together in Naperville Ill. this last weekend. In the display area EEL river had their new G-39 PRR ore jenny on display. It was a test shot of the one piece body which includes sides, ends and pusk brackets. The floor will be a seperate piece. Holes for ladders were visible. No price or time of availability were available. A new company ( at least to me ) Modelers Choice had samples of their laser cut sides and seperate ribs for their upcoming X-58. Again no idea on price or availability. ----------- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 19:17:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI "J Eric, It would be prototypical to run the N&W A on your PRR Layout. The PRR dud just that when they test ran it on the system. I think there is a story about that in Don Ball's 40's-50's book....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 19:25:31 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI "J In a message dated 10/28/02 5:30:38 PM Central Standard Time, preinhol@unidie.com writes: << And us cheeseheads will see some PRR-Talk folks from the flatlands at the show too. See you there. >> Our club, the Cedar Creek Central of Jackson, WI, will have a layout there as well. Bob (flatlander transplanted to Cheeseheadland) Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:24:20 -0800 Subject: [PRR] GLd hopper class assignment Hi everyone, I was re-reading a chapter in Teichmoeller's PRR hopper book last nite. He mentioned that the 300 USRA hoppers allocated for the PRR (PRR road class GLd) were initially assigned to the LIRR for their first decade or so of service. So from delivery (in 1919 or 1920) until 1929 (when these cars we re-assigned to the PRR proper) these 300 cars were assigned to the LIRR. The area served by the LIRR has no coal mining, so does anyone have any idea what the original service for these LIRR hoppers might have been? Would these cars have been floated empty from Long Island to NJ and then sent to mines in PA for loading and return? Or perhaps they were used in some other non-coal service on the LIRR? There were some documented cases during the WW1 era where coal was moved thru the tunnels and thru Penn Station to Long Island during the wee hours of the nite to help alleviate the carfloat bottleneck, could this have had something to do with the cars' original assignment? Any thoughts or conjectures? - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 20:28:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Seldom Seen Photos Lists, A conversation came up the other night (not here) pertaining to the lack of photos of non-PRR locos on PRR trackage. For instance. The Baldwin Plant over near Philly built how many Steam Locos? Thousands upon thousands, correct? Many, many for roads other than the PRR. These locos would have to travel the system to get to their owners in the mid-west, west, north west etc. Why isn't there many photos of these locos being "shipped". I know of the famous "Prosperity Special" with the Santa Fe Locos. Where would one find other published photos of locos in route? My dad grew up (late 30's-late 40's) in New Brighton Pa, right next to the Ft Wayne Main. He once told me of non-PRR power being shipped thru. If I recall what he seen correctly, he mentioned very large articulated's going by. Possibly UP, SF, SP locos. Once I thought he mentioned a Daylight 4-8-4. Just not sure of that one though. Again, it seems there is not much photo evidence of this occurrence. One would think a foreigne loco would be worth a shot with a camera. Any comments or clues to where photos may be found?....Gary. Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 21:12:58 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Seldom Seen Photos --part1_76.24eca6d5.2aef48aa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/28/2002 8:34:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: > These > locos would have to travel the system to get to their owners in the > mid-west, west, north west etc. Why isn't there many photos of these > locos being "shipped". I know of the famous "Prosperity Special" with > the Santa Fe Locos. The "Prosperity Special" was made up of Southern Pacific locomotives. The Baldwin plant at Eddystone was also served by the Reading and the Baltimore and Ohio, and there are a good number of photos of locomotives being shipped out on those lines. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_76.24eca6d5.2aef48aa_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/28/2002 8:34:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes:


These
locos would have to travel the system to get to their owners in  the
mid-west, west, north west etc. Why isn't there many photos of these
locos being "shipped". I know of the famous "Prosperity Special" with
the Santa Fe Locos.          

The "Prosperity Special" was made up of Southern Pacific locomotives.
The Baldwin plant at Eddystone was also served by the Reading and the
Baltimore and Ohio, and there are a good number of photos of locomotives
being shipped out on those lines.  

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_76.24eca6d5.2aef48aa_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] GLd hopper class assignment Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 21:19:14 -0500 Claus, Given the era, there was still a great deal of coastwise shipping prior to the Great Depression, and coastwise passenger ships still competed with the PRR for traffic from and to Georgia and Florida! It is quite possible that coal moved to the Chesapeake Bay ports for transshipment to Brooklyn via coastwise collier at the time. By 1929 the increasing cost of transshipment labor may have made rail-water-rail non-competitive. Other than coal, the only thing the LIRR could have moved in them would have been sand or clamshells for construction projects. Warning, though, this is entirely a SWAG. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Claus Schlund" To: Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 8:24 PM Subject: [PRR] GLd hopper class assignment > Hi everyone, > > I was re-reading a chapter in Teichmoeller's > PRR hopper book last nite. He mentioned that the > 300 USRA hoppers allocated for the PRR (PRR > road class GLd) were initially assigned to the LIRR > for their first decade or so of service. So from delivery > (in 1919 or 1920) until 1929 (when these cars we re-assigned > to the PRR proper) these 300 cars were assigned to the LIRR. > > The area served by the LIRR has no coal mining, > so does anyone have any idea what the original > service for these LIRR hoppers might have been? > Would these cars have been floated empty from Long Island > to NJ and then sent to mines in PA for loading and return? > Or perhaps they were used in some other non-coal service > on the LIRR? There were some documented > cases during the WW1 era where coal was moved thru the > tunnels and thru Penn Station to Long Island during the > wee hours of the nite to help alleviate the carfloat > bottleneck, could this have had something to do with > the cars' original assignment? Any thoughts or conjectures? > > - Claus > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Seldom Seen Photos Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 23:00:35 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C27ED5.D32EF900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List, I also suspect most of the locomotives were shipped "cold" with the = mainrods in the coal bunker of the tender and not steam up until they = hit "home" rails. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: BBReynolds@aol.com=20 To: mittner@webtv.net ; prr@yahoogroups.com ; prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 9:12 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Seldom Seen Photos In a message dated 10/28/2002 8:34:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, = mittner@webtv.net writes:=20 These=20 locos would have to travel the system to get to their owners in the = mid-west, west, north west etc. Why isn't there many photos of these = locos being "shipped". I know of the famous "Prosperity Special" = with=20 the Santa Fe Locos. =20 The "Prosperity Special" was made up of Southern Pacific locomotives.=20 The Baldwin plant at Eddystone was also served by the Reading and the=20 Baltimore and Ohio, and there are a good number of photos of = locomotives=20 being shipped out on those lines. =20 Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C27ED5.D32EF900 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
List,
 
I also suspect most of the locomotives were shipped = "cold"=20 with the mainrods in the coal bunker of the tender and not steam up = until they=20 hit "home" rails.
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 BBReynolds@aol.com
To: mittner@webtv.net ; prr@yahoogroups.com ; prr-talk@dsop.com=20
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 = 9:12=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Seldom Seen=20 Photos

In a = message dated=20 10/28/2002 8:34:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: =


These
locos would have to travel the system to get = to their=20 owners in  the
mid-west, west, north west etc. Why isn't = there many=20 photos of these
locos being "shipped". I know of the famous = "Prosperity=20 Special" with
the Santa Fe Locos.=20 =          


The=20 "Prosperity Special" was made up of Southern Pacific locomotives. =
The=20 Baldwin plant at Eddystone was also served by the Reading and the=20
Baltimore and Ohio, and there are a good number of photos of = locomotives=20
being shipped out on those lines.  

Bruce B. = Reynolds, Trailing=20 Edge Technologies, Glenside PA = ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C27ED5.D32EF900-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:09:24 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Seldom Seen Photos On Mon, 28 Oct 2002, Gary Mittner wrote: > My dad grew up (late 30's-late 40's) in New Brighton Pa, right next > to the Ft Wayne Main. He once told me of non-PRR power being shipped > thru. If I recall what he seen correctly, he mentioned very large > articulated's going by. Possibly UP, SF, SP locos. Once I thought he > mentioned a Daylight 4-8-4. Just not sure of that one though. Again, it > seems there is not much photo evidence of this occurrence. One would > think a foreigne loco would be worth a shot with a camera. Any comments > or clues to where photos may be found?....Gary. Gary, this is certainly true and I plan to model it. Westbound locos on the PRR were typically shipped over the C&PD branch and would be dropped at Manor siding in Columbia for inspection of their bearings by Baldwin. The Keystone, vol 27, no 3 (Fall 1994) has photos of SP AC-1(?), #4017, a cab forward 2-8-8-2, in 1911, and SL-SF(Frisco) 4-8-2 #4505, circa 1941. The phot of 4505 is neat as it shows a sign on the loco's side "Product of the Baldwin Locomotive Works, Philadelphia" and the headlight is protectively wrapped. For June 1944, my era, I can have one of the Santa Fe's 5000 class 2-10-4s that were subsequently leased by the PRR in 1956, or I can have one of a number of VO1000 diseasels...I have the shells to make an NP unit and a US Transportation Corps unit. I do however need photos of a VO100 "wrapped up" for delivery. Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don Millbranth" Subject: Re: [PRR] Seldom Seen Photos Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:39:01 -0600 ` Several of the Northern Pacific's 5000 series went west via the PRR, more specifically number 5003 in 1930. Somewhere I have a picture of NP's 5003, or better yet check out Don ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F Smith" To: "Gary Mittner" Cc: ; Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 10:09 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Seldom Seen Photos > On Mon, 28 Oct 2002, Gary Mittner wrote: > > > My dad grew up (late 30's-late 40's) in New Brighton Pa, right > next > > to the Ft Wayne Main. He once told me of non-PRR power being shipped > > thru. If I recall what he seen correctly, he mentioned very large > > articulated's going by. Possibly UP, SF, SP locos. Once I thought he > > mentioned a Daylight 4-8-4. Just not sure of that one though. Again, it > > seems there is not much photo evidence of this occurrence. One would > > think a foreigne loco would be worth a shot with a camera. Any comments > > or clues to where photos may be found?....Gary. > > Gary, > > this is certainly true and I plan to model it. Westbound locos on the PRR > were typically shipped over the C&PD branch and would be dropped at Manor > siding in Columbia for inspection of their bearings by Baldwin. The > Keystone, vol 27, no 3 (Fall 1994) has photos of SP AC-1(?), #4017, a cab > forward 2-8-8-2, in 1911, and SL-SF(Frisco) 4-8-2 #4505, circa 1941. The > phot of 4505 is neat as it shows a sign on the loco's side "Product of > the Baldwin Locomotive Works, Philadelphia" and the headlight is > protectively wrapped. For June 1944, my era, I can have one of the Santa > Fe's 5000 class 2-10-4s that were subsequently leased by the PRR in 1956, > or I can have one of a number of VO1000 diseasels...I have the shells to > make an NP unit and a US Transportation Corps unit. I do however need > photos of a VO100 "wrapped up" for delivery. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 23:46:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] New PRR cars coming, Ore Jennies Ken & list....... I got a call from a Lines West fan thats been following the ore jennies project. Maybe by next fall. Ore jennies will make a lot of PRR modelers happy! Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Randy Williamson" Subject: [PRR] Website Updates Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 01:55:48 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C27EEE.4D96CD40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable NatureI have finished and uploaded the last of the Local Arranged = Freight Train Service divisions to my website. Next I want to finish = the diesel assignment for the individual divisions before I get back to = the train schedules. Randy http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/HOME.h= tm ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C27EEE.4D96CD40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nature
I have finished and uploaded the last of the Local Arranged = Freight=20 Train Service divisions to my website.  Next I want to finish the = diesel=20 assignment for the individual divisions before I get back to the train=20 schedules.
 
Randy
http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSche= dules/HOME.htm

------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C27EEE.4D96CD40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] New PRR cars coming, Ore Jennies Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:53:29 -0500 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C27F20.450A9E40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Question for the List: Where was the typical domain for the PRR ore jennies? Was it from Ashtabu= la, OH into Pennsylvania? Were they used elsewhere on the PRR system? =20 TIA Ted Andrews ----- Original Message ----- From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 12:47 AM To: KEMACPRR@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] New PRR cars coming, Ore Jennies =20 Ken & list....... I got a call from a Lines West fan thats been following the ore jennies project. Maybe by next fall. Ore jennies will make a lot of PRR modelers happy! =20 =20 Dave =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C27F20.450A9E40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
<= DIV> Question for the List:
 
Where was t= he typical domain for the PRR ore jennies? Was it from Ashtabula, OH into= Pennsylvania? Were they used elsewhere on the PRR system? 
 
TIA
 
Ted Andrews
<= DIV> 
=
----- Original Message -----
From: zootowerprr@webtv.net
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 12:47 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] New PRR cars coming, Ore Jennies<= /DIV>
 
Ken & list.......

   &nb= sp;         I got a call from a L= ines West fan thats been following the
ore jennies project. Maybe by n= ext fall. Ore jennies will make a lot of
PRR modelers happy!
 = ;        
   &= nbsp; Dave


--------------------------------------------------= ---------------------
For assistance with this list, please visit http= ://lists.dsop.com.
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C27F20.450A9E40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 08:08:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] New PRR cars coming, Ore Jennies Ted... I know a few ore train routes. Greenwich (South Philly) to Pittsburgh. Fairless Works to Pittsburgh. Also ore trains operated out of Whiskey Island near Clevland. Don't know the destination of those trains but I'm thinking Gary-US Steel Works. Hope this helps. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 08:27:08 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] GLd hopper class assignment Indeed there was. The family of my late friend John J Atwater, Jr.--who reintroduced me to model railroading-- was in the coal business shipping between Tidewater VA ports and the Northeast. I can't remember the name of the company but a photo of one of their colliers is in a book I have: "Where Rails Meet the Sea: America's Connections Between Ships & Trains" by Michael Krieger. It's listed on Amazon for $69 but I remember paying about $25 a few years ago. ATTN: MANDATORY PRR CONTENT includes several photos of NY and Balto PRR marine operations Jim McDaniel, here in Delmarva where there is no coal but plenty of salt water ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 08:36:55 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Seldom Seen Photos The original Norfolk Southern Rwy received it's famous 2-8-4 "Light" Berkshires from Baldwin that were shipped down the Delmarva division and across the car float to Little Creek to NS at Carolina Junction and their home rails. It's all in the late H.Reid's book "Extra South" which has some photos and documentation. I would guess that other Baldwin Products went the same route for the southeastern railroads. More recently, Plasser-American has shipped track maintenance equipment from its plant in Chesapeake north via the float and ESHR to the NEC and AMTRAK. Jim McDaniel, here in Delmarva hoping for steam. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "James L. McDaniel" Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 08:36:55 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Seldom Seen Photos The original Norfolk Southern Rwy received it's famous 2-8-4 "Light" Berkshires from Baldwin that were shipped down the Delmarva division and across the car float to Little Creek to NS at Carolina Junction and their home rails. It's all in the late H.Reid's book "Extra South" which has some photos and documentation. I would guess that other Baldwin Products went the same route for the southeastern railroads. More recently, Plasser-American has shipped track maintenance equipment from its plant in Chesapeake north via the float and ESHR to the NEC and AMTRAK. Jim McDaniel, here in Delmarva hoping for steam. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/jd3IAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: Re: [PRR] New PRR cars coming, Ore Jennies Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:16:59 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C27E9D.726852C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ted... I know a few ore train routes. Greenwich (South Philly) to Pittsburgh. Fairless Works to Pittsburgh. Also ore trains operated out of Whiskey Island near Clevland. Don't know the destination of those trains but I'm thinking Gary-US Steel Works. Hope this helps. Whiskey Island (Cleveland, OH) to Mingo Junction, OH, Dave... adjacent = to Wierton, WV and Wierton Steel... the 'ZWW' ore trains, which still = operate on NS... with hoppers, of course, and out of both Ashtablua and = Cleveland. Terry Stuart The FALLSTON FLAGSTOP Railfan B&B 62 Beaver Street Fallston, PA 15066 www.forcomm.net/flagstop ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C27E9D.726852C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ted...

    I know a few ore train = routes.=20 Greenwich (South Philly) to
Pittsburgh. Fairless Works to Pittsburgh. = Also=20 ore trains operated out
of Whiskey Island near Clevland. Don't know = the=20 destination of those
trains but I'm thinking Gary-US Steel Works. = Hope this=20 helps.
 
Whiskey Island = (Cleveland,=20 OH) to Mingo Junction, OH, Dave...  adjacent to Wierton, WV and = Wierton=20 Steel...  the 'ZWW' ore trains, which still operate on NS...  = with=20 hoppers, of course, and out of both Ashtablua and=20 Cleveland.
 
Terry Stuart
The FALLSTON FLAGSTOP Railfan=20 B&B
62 Beaver Street
Fallston, PA  = 15066
www.forcomm.net/flagstop
 

 
------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C27E9D.726852C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 20:28:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Seldom Seen Photos Lists, A conversation came up the other night (not here) pertaining to the lack of photos of non-PRR locos on PRR trackage. For instance. The Baldwin Plant over near Philly built how many Steam Locos? Thousands upon thousands, correct? Many, many for roads other than the PRR. These locos would have to travel the system to get to their owners in the mid-west, west, north west etc. Why isn't there many photos of these locos being "shipped". I know of the famous "Prosperity Special" with the Santa Fe Locos. Where would one find other published photos of locos in route? My dad grew up (late 30's-late 40's) in New Brighton Pa, right next to the Ft Wayne Main. He once told me of non-PRR power being shipped thru. If I recall what he seen correctly, he mentioned very large articulated's going by. Possibly UP, SF, SP locos. Once I thought he mentioned a Daylight 4-8-4. Just not sure of that one though. Again, it seems there is not much photo evidence of this occurrence. One would think a foreigne loco would be worth a shot with a camera. Any comments or clues to where photos may be found?....Gary. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/jd3IAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 09:41:49 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI "J At 6:19 PM -0500 10/28/02, Eric Lauterbach wrote: >A first hand account of the BLI Class A would be greatly appreciated. I >think I am going to go poor with between the M1b, Class A, GG1, and T1. I >have heard rumors of other companies coming out with a GG1, including a >metal one. I wonder if we still see that or will they move on to other >engines. Hi Eric, The "metal" one is the BLI one. As for "seeing it", I wrote them some questions, which they should have been able to answer in about 30 seconds, more than two weeks ago. So far no reply. It has me concerned that they thought they could just "come up" with the GG1 information on the fly, and now maybe they're having a rethink. I wish folks in "the business" would stop being so bloody secretive and ASK us!! It would avert the silliness of multiple releases of the same unit...been there done that with the RS3 (still waiting for a great model), the F3, the F7/9, and now the GG1? Certainly a cast metal body raises some interesting issues. It seems to me like a throwback, considering the amount of detail possible in metal vs plastic. I presume that some folks find it desirable due to the weight, but frankly, I can pack a LOT of weight into a Premier plastic GG1...and I don't want one loco to pull 80 cars anyway! One clear downside of the metal body is that changing details could be a lot more difficult than a styrene body. I guess we'll just have to wait and see...there have been lots of "announcements" that never made it to market (like the Tichy X29). One could hope against the odds that BLI and Roco would do different "versions" of the basic GG1, like flat pilot vs. drop coupler, or that one company would offer both versions...As I noted earlier, add on detail parts for the nose vents (to provide the later "raised rim look" as well as the sheet metal for the 5 stripe and single stripe versions). One could even consider add on parts for the early raised vents. I also sent them a detailed listing of potential numbers to go with the schemes that they note on the web site (with the exception of Tuscan with gold, which AFAIK, never happened). Speaking of the web site, for a loco due in about 6 months, you'll notice that it is conpicuously absent from the "catalog" but the GG1 pages are there if you look hard . Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 10:43:04 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] New PRR cars coming, Ore Jennies When new the cars were purchased for the import ore coming thru Pier 124 in Philadelphia. They were also used out of Whiskey Island. --------- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 11:20:56 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] New PRR cars coming, Ore Jennies The major criteria for using ore jennies in the movement of iron ore or taconite pellets was the furnace they were going to, as it had to have a rotary dumper. Furnaces with just high lines that used gravity dump, could only use bottom dump hopper cars. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 16:16:50 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] New PRR cars coming, Ore Jennies Dave, Ken and list... This project seems to have been slow in coming but is not as far off as it might seem. The G38 will be right behind the G39. The cars will be in kit format in the beginning and MAY be released built up later. Teh tooling is absolutely beautiful, on a par with Athearn Genesis. The samples I reviewed needed some revision to get them out of the molds without breaking but nonetheless will be right on to the drawings my brother had supplied them. The ladders are next and then the brake equipment and they are done. They are working on the H30 as well! Andy sorry... I know just when you bought the resin kit... Also don't forget the Jennies hauled rolled steel as my brother reminded me! Lots of goodies coming for us Pennsy Dudes! Tell you more as I can, but I am swarn to secrecy for the minute! Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:53:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] New PRR cars coming, Ore Jennies Terry.... Thanks for the info on ore traffic out of Whiskey Island. Always a big fan of ore trains and steel plants. Here in Philly, the ore trains are long gone. At one time, Greenwich Yard was a sea of ore jennies. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: Re: [PRR] New PRR cars coming, Ore Jennies Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 21:39:55 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C27F93.B9CAF040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dave Hopson wrote... Thanks for the info on ore traffic out of Whiskey Island. Always a big fan of ore trains and steel plants.=20 As am I, Dave. I used to watch them struggling off Whiskey Island and = through the East 26th Street Yard in Cleveland many years ago. Those = Shark-Nose Pennsy freighters would be down to barely a half-mile an hour = but they wouldn't stall. It would take several hours for the ore trains = to make Alliance... then take the low-grade Bayard Branch to Mingo Jct. = and Wierton Steel. Today there is nowhere near the drama, although Norfolk Southern has = adopted the 'push me--pull you' concept of using power at both ends of = the train. The Ashtabula trains reverse at CP Rochester, a couple of = miles from The FALLSTON FLAGSTOP, for the run down the River Line to = Mingo Jct. Come out and visit us sometime and watch the show! Terry Stuart The FALLSTON FLAGSTOP Railfan B&B 62 Beaver Street Fallston, PA 15066 www.forcomm.net/flagstop ------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C27F93.B9CAF040 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dave Hopson wrote...

    Thanks for the info on ore traffic out of = Whiskey=20 Island. Always a
big fan of ore trains and steel plants.
 
As am I, = Dave.  I used=20 to watch them struggling off Whiskey Island and through the East 26th = Street=20 Yard in Cleveland many years ago.  Those Shark-Nose Pennsy = freighters would=20 be down to barely a half-mile an hour but they wouldn't stall.  It = would=20 take several hours for the ore trains to make Alliance...  then = take the=20 low-grade Bayard Branch to Mingo Jct. and Wierton = Steel.
 
Today there is = nowhere near=20 the drama, although Norfolk Southern has adopted the 'push me--pull you' = concept=20 of using power at both ends of the train.  The Ashtabula trains = reverse at=20 CP Rochester, a couple of miles from The FALLSTON FLAGSTOP, for the run = down the=20 River Line to Mingo Jct.
 
Come out and visit us sometime and watch the = show!
 
Terry Stuart
The FALLSTON FLAGSTOP Railfan=20 B&B
62 Beaver Street
Fallston, PA  = 15066
www.forcomm.net/flagstop
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_007B_01C27F93.B9CAF040-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 07:30:22 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] GLd hopper class assignment In a message dated 10/28/02 8:28:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, schlund@cwnet.com writes: << I was re-reading a chapter in Teichmoeller's PRR hopper book last nite. He mentioned that the 300 USRA hoppers allocated for the PRR (PRR road class GLd) were initially assigned to the LIRR for their first decade or so of service. So from delivery (in 1919 or 1920) until 1929 (when these cars we re-assigned to the PRR proper) these 300 cars were assigned to the LIRR. The area served by the LIRR has no coal mining, so does anyone have any idea what the original service for these LIRR hoppers might have been? Would these cars have been floated empty from Long Island to NJ and then sent to mines in PA for loading and return? Or perhaps they were used in some other non-coal service on the LIRR? There were some documented cases during the WW1 era where coal was moved thru the tunnels and thru Penn Station to Long Island during the wee hours of the nite to help alleviate the carfloat bottleneck, could this have had something to do with the cars' original assignment? Any thoughts or conjectures? - Claus >> The general idea was that the PRR was supposed to take thousands of these things, but didn't want them. The RR negotiated with the USRA to use most of the steel and "appurtances" assigned to build these two bays - to build more H-21's. In typical Govt fasion, the USRA required them to take some. To show their disdain for the cars Pennsy showed them as an "add on" to an "obsolete" designation - and assigned them to the Long Island (wouldn't even put their own name on these) If the cars spent time on the PRR or Long Island, it was probably by accident - as they were most likey - shunted out to general interchange service. RR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 14:20:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Instruction sheet help! List, Last week I was given a "project" loco to repair and paint. This loco is/was in a gazillion pieces and it was left for me to figure out the reassembly. (must have been a flea market find) The loco is one of the Powerhouse/Oriental USRA 2-8-8-2's. The owner said all the parts were present. I kind of doubt that. I have most of it figured out. 2 things remain a stumbling block. 1. How in the heck do the tender trucks mount? My guess is tiny rivits? 2. How does the front engine assembly connect with the rear engine assemby? I am out of parts/screws. Nothing left in the box. I can jerry rig something if need be. What I would like to see is an instruction sheet. If anyone here has this loco/instruction sheet, please email me off list. I sure could use a copy to help me out. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jcfmmf@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 15:30:25 EST Subject: [PRR] ore traffic C&P --part1_46.3045b5d3.2af19b61_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I noted some confusion on a recent post about C&P ore traffic. The trains were routed Whisky Island > Alliance > Mingo Junction: C&P all the way but did not use the Bayard cut-off which ran from the Eastern Div. main at, I think Fairhope [i.e. Canton area] to Bayard which was South of Alliance on the C&P at Bayard. The Cut-off was built around the1920's to allow EB traffic to bypass the steep grade at Alliance. When it was built the PRR removed the switch that allowed EB traffic to access the C&P at Alliance and also removed 1 track of the 4-track main from Alliance to Fairhope. In recent years Conrail [I think] replaced the switch and abandoned the Cut-off. It also reduced the main to 1 track although there is some concept of double-tracking floating around. If I ever get the time and money, lol, I will model the area circa 1944 as I can remember 100 car ore trains going up the hill with 2 N1s's on the front and 2 on the back and all the hoppers looking empty from trackside; no ore jennies then. Would shake the ground, real sturm ung drang. Hmmm 1950's with sharks & jennies also not bad, will need a big hidden staging yard. Jerry --part1_46.3045b5d3.2af19b61_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit        I noted some confusion on a recent post about C&P ore traffic. The trains were routed Whisky Island > Alliance > Mingo Junction: C&P all the way but did not use the Bayard cut-off which ran from the Eastern Div. main at, I think Fairhope [i.e. Canton area] to Bayard which was South of Alliance on the C&P at Bayard. The Cut-off was built around the1920's to allow EB traffic to bypass the steep grade at Alliance. When it was built the PRR removed the switch that allowed EB traffic to access the C&P at Alliance and also removed 1 track of the 4-track main from Alliance to Fairhope. In recent years Conrail [I think] replaced the switch and abandoned the Cut-off. It also reduced the main to 1 track although there is some concept of double-tracking floating around.
       If I ever get the time and money, lol, I will model the area circa 1944 as I can remember 100 car ore trains going up the hill with 2 N1s's on the front and 2 on the back and all the hoppers looking empty from trackside; no ore jennies then. Would shake the ground, real sturm ung drang. Hmmm 1950's with sharks & jennies also not bad, will need a big hidden staging yard.
       Jerry
 --part1_46.3045b5d3.2af19b61_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 16:18:19 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] ore traffic C&P This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_bDzgdtfvQh0IqxjgBfbxcQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Jerry said>The trains were routed Whisky Island > Alliance > Mingo Junction: C&P all the way but did not use the Bayard cut-off which ran from the Eastern Div. main at, I think Fairhope [i.e. Canton area] to Bayard which was South of Alliance on the C&P at Bayard. True the Bayard to Fairhope cut-off was not used for ore traffic from Cleveland to Mingo Jct, and it was C&P all the way. However, the railroad from Fairhope to Rochester via Bayard was known as the Bayard Branch (in both the Lake and Pittsburgh Divisions). Fairhope was the interlocking at the east end of the Canton Yard and the 14.33 mile cut-off was built in 1926 by the PFW&C. The C&P between Bayard and Alliance was known as the Mahoning Secondary and between Alliance and DB (Cleveland) was known as Main Line-Lake. Al --Boundary_(ID_bDzgdtfvQh0IqxjgBfbxcQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message
Jerry said>The trains were routed Whisky Island > Alliance > Mingo Junction: C&P all the way but did not use the Bayard cut-off which ran from the Eastern Div. main at, I think Fairhope [i.e. Canton area] to Bayard which was South of Alliance on the C&P at Bayard.
 
True the Bayard to Fairhope cut-off was not used for ore traffic from Cleveland to Mingo Jct, and it was C&P all the way. However, the railroad from Fairhope to Rochester via Bayard was known as the Bayard Branch (in both the Lake and Pittsburgh Divisions). Fairhope was the interlocking at the east end of the Canton Yard and the 14.33 mile cut-off was built in 1926 by the PFW&C.  The C&P between Bayard and Alliance was known as the Mahoning Secondary and between Alliance and DB (Cleveland) was known as Main Line-Lake.
 
Al
 
 
 
--Boundary_(ID_bDzgdtfvQh0IqxjgBfbxcQ)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Peters" Subject: [PRR] S1 tender deck Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 23:29:09 +0000 Hello, I recently purchased a brass model (Sunset) of the PRR S1 steam locomotive. A friend said that he thought that some details were missing from the tender deck, notably a generator and two tanks on the deck just behind the coal tender. He said that they were on the 3rd Rail version. Does anyone know of a good photo of this area that's available? What would the two tanks be for? Thank you for any help and I look forward to reading future posts. John Peters _________________________________________________________________ Get faster connections -- switch to MSN Internet Access! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 18:49:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] ore traffic C&P Al & List......... I think you guys lost me. Does the PRR have two seperate lines called "Bayard Branch"? The line from Yellow Creek to Rochester is the Bayard Branch or Cutoff? Thanks.........Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 18:17:20 -0800 Subject: [PRR] GLd hoppers Hi RR, W/ respect to PRR class GLd hoppers, RR wrote: "The general idea was that the PRR was supposed to take thousands of these things, but didn't want them. The RR negotiated with the USRA to use most of the steel and "appurtances" assigned to build these two bays - to build more H-21's." Not entirely correct - the PRR built the H25 class in place of the large proposed USRA GLd fleet. " In typical Govt fasion, the USRA required them to take some. To show their disdain for the cars Pennsy showed them as an "add on" to an "obsolete" designation - and assigned them to the Long Island (wouldn't even put their own name on these) If the cars spent time on the PRR or Long Island, it was probably by accident - as they were most likey - shunted out to general interchange service." I'm sure the PRR was unhappy at having to accept a USRA (and therefore a non-PRR) design. However, I do believe that given the dire shortage of rolling stock of all types during the WW1 years, including hoppers, that these cars were placed in service as quickly as possible. Just what that service was is the question I'm looking to answer. Teichmoeller's book has some photos of GLd hoppers in service on the PRR but they were re-lettered to PRR by then. - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 22:15:49 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] ore traffic C&P Dave, et al., The Bayard Branch includes the PFW&C cut-off between Fairhope and Bayard, the C&P from Bayard to vic. Yellow Creek* (both segments in the Lake Division) and the C&P from Yellow Creek to Rochester in the Pittsburgh Division. * The division post is at MP 26.6 (no where), while Yellow Creek is at MP 25.3. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] PRR I-1 3725 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 22:25:08 -0500 Looking for some help from those Steam guru's out there. I just purchase a photo of PRR I-1 3725 taken in Warren Pa. on April 7th 1950. I have a few questions about the engine. First can anyone supply me with the dates when the engine was dropped from service and then scrapped. Second, on the engineers side of the pilot there is the enginehouse assignment, or region assignment. I believe the letters are CI maybe CE (The uncoupling lever is covering a part of the second letter) does anyone have a list of the letters so I know where this engine was assigned. Finally for the tender guru's, the tender on this loco has a doghouse, backup light, 4 wheel trucks and high coal bunker on the side. I was wondering what the tender class might be. Unfortunately the photographer focused on the front of the engine and the back 1/4 of the pic gets a little fuzzy. Thanks in advance for any help, If I had a scanner I would post the pic but I do not. Brian J Carlson Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 22:47:56 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] GLd hoppers In a message dated 10/30/02 8:31:05 PM, schlund@cwnet.com writes: << I'm sure the PRR was unhappy at having to accept a USRA (and therefore a non-PRR) design. However, I do believe that given the dire shortage of rolling stock of all types during the WW1 years, including hoppers, that these cars were placed in service as quickly as possible. Just what that service was is the question I'm looking to answer. >> I have no idea but how about a few guesses. There may have been several reasons to lock in a fleet of unwanted hoppers into LIRR service. Wasn't much of Brooklyn, Queens and Long Island powered by coal burning LILCO and Con Edison plants? It would be inefficient to lighter coal across the river but inbound ships loaded with coal that docked in Brooklyn (?) might tie up the hoppers. My second guess is - landfill. The old Pan Am sea plane berths near what is now LaGuardia were clearly insufficient for future needs. LGA is built on landfill and, I believe, so is Idlewild, now JFK. The land was reclaimed in prosperous times, I believe the early to mid 20s. The World's Fair (1938-39 ?) drained marsh land (near LGA) and could also have been a major project to use the hoppers. And, in the late 30s we'd have WPA projects. The Long Island Parkways (Wantaugh?) were also built prewar even though there was little real use for them at that time. I don't remember much about Sunnyside Yard, but that's probably where the hoppers would have been maintained. What do ya think? Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] GLd hoppers Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 23:23:14 -0500 Marty, The problem with your sugggestions is timing. The GLd's were off the LIRR and into PRR service by 1929, while all the projects you mention began in the 1930's. I was born and brought up on Long Island. Coal was not only used for electric generation. Remember, the natural gas pipelines were post WWII phenomena. Gas was generated by burning, you guessed it, COAL! I imagine the old Brooklyn Union Gas Company used quite a few carloads. The most likely LIRR use was to handle coal transloaded from coastwise colliers. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Cc: Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 10:47 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] GLd hoppers > > In a message dated 10/30/02 8:31:05 PM, schlund@cwnet.com writes: > > << > I'm sure the PRR was unhappy at having to accept a USRA (and therefore > a non-PRR) design. However, I do believe that given the dire > shortage of rolling stock of all types during the WW1 years, including > hoppers, that these cars were placed in service as quickly as > possible. Just what that service was is the question > I'm looking to answer. >> > > I have no idea but how about a few guesses. > > There may have been several reasons to lock in a fleet of unwanted hoppers > into LIRR service. > > Wasn't much of Brooklyn, Queens and Long Island powered by coal burning LILCO > and Con Edison plants? It would be inefficient to lighter coal across the > river but inbound ships loaded with coal that docked in Brooklyn (?) might > tie up the hoppers. > > My second guess is - landfill. The old Pan Am sea plane berths near what is > now LaGuardia were clearly insufficient for future needs. LGA is built on > landfill and, I believe, so is Idlewild, now JFK. The land was reclaimed in > prosperous times, I believe the early to mid 20s. > > The World's Fair (1938-39 ?) drained marsh land (near LGA) and could also > have been a major project to use the hoppers. And, in the late 30s we'd have > WPA projects. The Long Island Parkways (Wantaugh?) were also built prewar > even though there was little real use for them at that time. > > I don't remember much about Sunnyside Yard, but that's probably where the > hoppers would have been maintained. > > What do ya think? > > Regards, Marty > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR I1 3725 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 22:20:02 -0600 Brian, According to Edson, I1 3725 was dropped from the roster 8/51, a little more than a year after your photo. There is a little more info in Edson's book. This engine was built at Juniata 9/19, and converted to I1sa 2/49. It's construction number was 3662. The June 1973 Keystone has a list of known enginehouse symbols. There is no CI or CE in the list. There are CO, CR, and CW. CO is Columbus, CR is Crestline, and CW is Conway. There are also several 3 letter codes starting with C. The author states that "this list is nearly complete". So it is possible there was a CI or CE, but just not in the list. Andy Cich -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Brian J Carlson Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 9:25 PM To: PRR Talk; PRR Fax Subject: [PRR] PRR I-1 3725 Looking for some help from those Steam guru's out there. I just purchase a photo of PRR I-1 3725 taken in Warren Pa. on April 7th 1950. I have a few questions about the engine. First can anyone supply me with the dates when the engine was dropped from service and then scrapped. Second, on the engineers side of the pilot there is the enginehouse assignment, or region assignment. I believe the letters are CI maybe CE (The uncoupling lever is covering a part of the second letter) does anyone have a list of the letters so I know where this engine was assigned. Finally for the tender guru's, the tender on this loco has a doghouse, backup light, 4 wheel trucks and high coal bunker on the side. I was wondering what the tender class might be. Unfortunately the photographer focused on the front of the engine and the back 1/4 of the pic gets a little fuzzy. Thanks in advance for any help, If I had a scanner I would post the pic but I do not. Brian J Carlson Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR I-1 3725 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 22:48:07 -0600 Hi Brian--No doubt someone has it from a primary source, but from The Keystone, Summer 1977, 3725 was dropped from service on 8/3/51; the scrapped date was unknown at the time of the article. On the engineer's side of the pilot the division assignment would be displayed; enginehouse on the fireman's side. Before March 1951, divisions with C as the first letter were: CN--Northern Division, CP--Western Pennsylvania Division, CL--Lake Division, and CO--Eastern Ohio Division. If the tender looks like the one in http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr-s4320abn.jpg it is a 90F82. I don't know which side of the engine is in your photo, but this is an Altoona built engine so it has no feedwater heater on the fireman's side and has injectors under both sides of the cab. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: [PRR] FS: Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:52:49 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C280C3.54621F90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi List, I'm thinning out the motive power that just doesn't fit the Elmira Branch. HO scale. Westside K-5, seen some miles, runs nice, cab grabs broke off, painted but some chips. $130 Alco Models G-5, VERY low miles, in brass, runs well. $260 Shipping and insurance extra. Trades considered. Peter Reinhold 375 Fourth Street Prairie Du Sac, WI 53578 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C280C3.54621F90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi List,

 

  = I’m thinning out the motive power that just doesn’t fit the Elmira = Branch.

 

HO scale.

 

Westside K-5, seen some miles, runs nice, cab grabs broke off, painted but some chips. = $130

 

Alco Models  G-5, VERY low miles, in = brass, runs well.  $260

=

 

Shipping and insurance = extra.

Trades considered.

 

Peter Reinhold

375 Fourth = Street

Prairie Du = Sac, = WI= = 53578

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C280C3.54621F90-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:48:11 -0500 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Yahoo is Slooooow! From: Jerry Britton I made a post to two Yahoo lists before 9 a.m. this morning. One of them just went through, the other still hasn't, nearly four hours later!!! Are others seeing this same kind of turnaround time for unmoderated Yahoo lists? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] GLd hoppers Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:13:55 -0600 Coal was also the fuel of choice for heating homes in the 1920s, so there may have been a substantial home retail coal market at that time. -----Original Message----- From: Gregg Mahlkov [mailto:mahlkov@gtcom.net] Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 10:23 PM To: LAMAassoc@aol.com; schlund@cwnet.com; VVA249@aol.com Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] GLd hoppers Marty, The problem with your sugggestions is timing. The GLd's were off the LIRR and into PRR service by 1929, while all the projects you mention began in the 1930's. I was born and brought up on Long Island. Coal was not only used for electric generation. Remember, the natural gas pipelines were post WWII phenomena. Gas was generated by burning, you guessed it, COAL! I imagine the old Brooklyn Union Gas Company used quite a few carloads. The most likely LIRR use was to handle coal transloaded from coastwise colliers. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Cc: Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 10:47 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] GLd hoppers > > In a message dated 10/30/02 8:31:05 PM, schlund@cwnet.com writes: > > << > I'm sure the PRR was unhappy at having to accept a USRA (and therefore > a non-PRR) design. However, I do believe that given the dire > shortage of rolling stock of all types during the WW1 years, including > hoppers, that these cars were placed in service as quickly as > possible. Just what that service was is the question > I'm looking to answer. >> > > I have no idea but how about a few guesses. > > There may have been several reasons to lock in a fleet of unwanted hoppers > into LIRR service. > > Wasn't much of Brooklyn, Queens and Long Island powered by coal burning LILCO > and Con Edison plants? It would be inefficient to lighter coal across the > river but inbound ships loaded with coal that docked in Brooklyn (?) might > tie up the hoppers. > > My second guess is - landfill. The old Pan Am sea plane berths near what is > now LaGuardia were clearly insufficient for future needs. LGA is built on > landfill and, I believe, so is Idlewild, now JFK. The land was reclaimed in > prosperous times, I believe the early to mid 20s. > > The World's Fair (1938-39 ?) drained marsh land (near LGA) and could also > have been a major project to use the hoppers. And, in the late 30s we'd have > WPA projects. The Long Island Parkways (Wantaugh?) were also built prewar > even though there was little real use for them at that time. > > I don't remember much about Sunnyside Yard, but that's probably where the > hoppers would have been maintained. > > What do ya think? > > Regards, Marty > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:17:27 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: RE: [PRR] GLd hoppers Marvin sez: >Coal was also the fuel of choice for heating homes in the 1920s, so there >may have been a substantial home retail coal market at that time. In fact, this may have been the largest overall use of hoppers on the LI. Of course, these cars either would be loaded at coal plants and then ferried to Long Island, or more lilkely, they would have been loaded on the Island from lightered and/or tisdewater coal, and then consigned to individual fuel dealers. There are plenty of photos of hopper full of coal on car floats Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR I-1 3725 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 18:04:23 -0500 OK Don let me take a stab at answers to your questions/comments. Not sure about the injector line. Not sure where the pipe should be. Markers are on the smokebox. What I think is a train control box is located just behind the cylinders on the running board. What I think is the compressor is located above the third driver with an air tank located behind and slightly below the compressor. Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" To: "Brian J Carlson" Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 10:35 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR I-1 3725 > Brian > > You should also see an injector line on the engineer's side. That engine > should not have had a feedwater heater on the left side, and thus had > injector lines on both sides. > > Are the marker lights on the pilot beam or smokebox? Is there a train > control box? Is there a compressor on the right side? > > Don Harper > Texas A&M Marine Lab > 5007 Avenue U > Galveston, TX 77551 > 409/740-4540 > > > ---------- > >From: "Brian J Carlson" > >To: "PRR Talk" , "PRR Fax" > >Subject: [PRR] PRR I-1 3725 > >Date: Wed, 30 Oct, 2002, 21:25 > > > > > Looking for some help from those Steam guru's out there. I just purchase a > > photo of PRR I-1 3725 taken in Warren Pa. on April 7th 1950. I have a few > > questions about the engine. First can anyone supply me with the dates when > > the engine was dropped from service and then scrapped. Second, on the > > engineers side of the pilot there is the enginehouse assignment, or region > > assignment. I believe the letters are CI maybe CE (The uncoupling lever is > > covering a part of the second letter) does anyone have a list of the letters > > so I know where this engine was assigned. Finally for the tender guru's, > > the tender on this loco has a doghouse, backup light, 4 wheel trucks and > > high coal bunker on the side. I was wondering what the tender class might > > be. Unfortunately the photographer focused on the front of the engine and > > the back 1/4 of the pic gets a little fuzzy. Thanks in advance for any > > help, If I had a scanner I would post the pic but I do not. > > Brian J Carlson > > Cheektowaga NY > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!!