From: PRR5499@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Update on BLI Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 01:37:21 +0000 Seeing is believing.......... > The following is provided as a PSA (Public Service Announcement), regardless > of who your dealer of choice is... > > Broadway Limited Imports sent out a dealer mailing dated 9/26 which > contained the following info: > > * The NYC J1e is due to arrive to them on 10/10. Thereafter it will ship to > dealers. There will be three shipments in total, so dealers may not receive > their entire shipment during the first phase. Subsequent shipments will > arrive in November and December. > > * The N&W Class A is due in March 2003 OR SOONER. > > * The PRR GG1 is due in March 2003. > > * The E7A is due in April 2003. > > * The PRR M1a/M1b is due in June 2003. > > * The USRA Heavy Mikado is due in August 2003. > > * The PRR T1 is due in October 2003. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > > "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of > Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana > products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", > the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- > Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are > providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit > our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Update on BLI Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 12:52:36 +0000 I wouldn't hold my breath on those schedules. I just got my October MR with the review and it looks like there are still teething problems. They tried to write a favorable review but 8.5 volts for a starting speed? Parts not painted on the engine? I think I'll still wait for the "field" review before jumping in on this one. > > Seeing is believing.......... > > The following is provided as a PSA (Public Service Announcement), regardless > > of who your dealer of choice is... > > > > Broadway Limited Imports sent out a dealer mailing dated 9/26 which > > contained the following info: > > > > * The NYC J1e is due to arrive to them on 10/10. Thereafter it will ship to > > dealers. There will be three shipments in total, so dealers may not receive > > their entire shipment during the first phase. Subsequent shipments will > > arrive in November and December. > > > > * The N&W Class A is due in March 2003 OR SOONER. > > > > * The PRR GG1 is due in March 2003. > > > > * The E7A is due in April 2003. > > > > * The PRR M1a/M1b is due in June 2003. > > > > * The USRA Heavy Mikado is due in August 2003. > > > > * The PRR T1 is due in October 2003. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > > > > "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of > > Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana > > products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", > > the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- > > Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are > > providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit > > our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > > ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 09:07:30 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR T & H Society --part1_aa.12a2f79e.2acaf812_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Many thanks to all for the information on the Pennsy technical & historical society and its chapters. Evan Leisey --part1_aa.12a2f79e.2acaf812_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Many thanks to all for the information on the Pennsy technical & historical society and its chapters.  

Evan Leisey --part1_aa.12a2f79e.2acaf812_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 08:16:18 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Update on BLI Jerry sez: >Broadway Limited Imports sent out a dealer mailing dated 9/26 which >contained the following info: >* The PRR GG1 is due in March 2003. > >* The PRR M1a/M1b is due in June 2003. YIKES! How did the GG1 jump over the M1? Could they be teaming up with Roco? Does anyone have ANY information on this model? Are they offering a version with the high intakes? With the "inset foot rails"? 2003 is gonna be a COSTLY year!! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 09:28:50 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Update on BLI From: Jerry Britton On 10/1/02 9:16 AM, Bruce F. Smith (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: > Jerry sez: >> Broadway Limited Imports sent out a dealer mailing dated 9/26 which >> contained the following info: >> * The PRR GG1 is due in March 2003. >> >> * The PRR M1a/M1b is due in June 2003. > > YIKES! How did the GG1 jump over the M1? Could they be teaming up with > Roco? Does anyone have ANY information on this model? Are they offering a > version with the high intakes? With the "inset foot rails"? 2003 is gonna > be a COSTLY year!! > The GG1 is all die-cast, so it is likely done at a different factory. Just conjecture on my part. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 09:33:39 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Update on BLI Now there's an after-market product idea. Plastic high intakes (and a patch to cover the as-built ones) to update the Rivarossi/AHM GG-1. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "Bruce F. Smith" wrote: > Jerry sez: > >Broadway Limited Imports sent out a dealer mailing dated 9/26 which > >contained the following info: > >* The PRR GG1 is due in March 2003. > > > >* The PRR M1a/M1b is due in June 2003. > > YIKES! How did the GG1 jump over the M1? Could they be teaming up with > Roco? Does anyone have ANY information on this model? Are they offering a > version with the high intakes? With the "inset foot rails"? 2003 is gonna > be a COSTLY year!! > > Happy Rails > Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 09:38:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Update on BLI --part1_174.f956095.2acaff54_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And now a Long Shoremen's strike to boot. Wonder why importers sometimes pull their hair out? Oct. 10 delivery of the first BLI loco --- may be not. Evan --part1_174.f956095.2acaff54_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And now a Long Shoremen's strike to boot.  Wonder why importers sometimes pull their hair out?  Oct. 10 delivery of the first BLI loco --- may be not.

Evan --part1_174.f956095.2acaff54_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Update on BLI Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 08:38:26 -0500 BLI did appear to solve one thing, according to the review. Tractive effort of 4.64 oz isn't bad. -----Original Message----- From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 7:53 AM To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com; PRR5499@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Update on BLI I wouldn't hold my breath on those schedules. I just got my October MR with the review and it looks like there are still teething problems. They tried to write a favorable review but 8.5 volts for a starting speed? Parts not painted on the engine? I think I'll still wait for the "field" review before jumping in on this one. > > Seeing is believing.......... > > The following is provided as a PSA (Public Service Announcement), regardless > > of who your dealer of choice is... > > > > Broadway Limited Imports sent out a dealer mailing dated 9/26 which > > contained the following info: > > > > * The NYC J1e is due to arrive to them on 10/10. Thereafter it will ship to > > dealers. There will be three shipments in total, so dealers may not receive > > their entire shipment during the first phase. Subsequent shipments will > > arrive in November and December. > > > > * The N&W Class A is due in March 2003 OR SOONER. > > > > * The PRR GG1 is due in March 2003. > > > > * The E7A is due in April 2003. > > > > * The PRR M1a/M1b is due in June 2003. > > > > * The USRA Heavy Mikado is due in August 2003. > > > > * The PRR T1 is due in October 2003. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > > > > "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of > > Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana > > products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", > > the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- > > Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are > > providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit > > our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > > ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 09:50:02 -0400 From: Godfrey Hall Subject: Re: [PRR] Update on BLI ndbprr@att.net wrote: > > They tried to write a favorable review but 8.5 volts for a starting speed? Having had a chance to play with the "not for resale" demo units, I found this high starting voltage not a problem (for me). I was using an MRC controller and found that the sound & lights come on at about "10" on the scale. The loco starts to move at about "25" and moves off Sllooowwwllyy up to full scale speed. Now slowly is what you make it, but I felt about 1 rpm was not bad with no load. The space on the controller between "10 & 25" allows you to slow and stop the loco (and reverse it) without shutting off the sound. Godfrey Hall ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 10:00:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Update on BLI From: Jerry Britton On 10/1/02 9:50 AM, Godfrey Hall (lcpgh@sympatico.ca) wrote: >> They tried to write a favorable review but 8.5 volts for a starting speed? > > Having had a chance to play with the "not for resale" demo units, I found this > high > starting voltage not a problem (for me). > I was using an MRC controller and found that the sound & lights come on at > about > "10" on the scale. The loco starts to move at about "25" and moves off > Sllooowwwllyy > up to full scale speed. Now slowly is what you make it, but I felt about 1 rpm > was > not bad with no load. > The space on the controller between "10 & 25" allows you to slow and stop the > loco > (and reverse it) without shutting off the sound. DCC users can also tweak the CV to adjust the starting voltage, one would assume. The review noted it could pull 21 passenger cars. That's quite an improvement over the mere four it was pulling on a level track during the convention! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 10:22:07 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Update on BLI It's interesting, the MR review of the Hudson says that it achieved 75 mph on DCC; but they never said what the DCC voltage was. They did mention that the engine's electronics shut down if voltage exceeds 20 volts. Maybe that's what they were using for DCC! I assume the 8.5 V starting voltage for DC is to provide power for all the electronics and bells and whistles. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Danger in Morning Sun Captions...grin Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 07:16:39 -0700 Doug and list, It wouldn't be the first mistake that Morning Sun has done...their SP (sorry for mentioning another road) book probably had more errors than correct captions...at least the pictures were good! And nobody says that you have to even change them at all... Bill On Mon, 30 Sep 2002 21:58:19 -0700 (PDT) Doug Kisala wrote: > Bill, list, > > You could very well be correct. The caption as I > remember it (I'm at work now and don't have Vol 2 > color guide) was that some of the H30As were built > with roller bearing trucks. Ian Fischer seems to do > pretty good research (much better than many of the > Morning Sun Books). > > Any freight car gurus with the real story, please pipe > up! > > I like my car, and changing trucks back to 70 tonners > with journal bearings wouldn't be the end of the > world. > > Doug > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 09:43:39 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Update on BLI John says: >It's interesting, the MR review of the Hudson says that it achieved >75 mph on DCC; but they never said what the DCC voltage was. >They did mention that the engine's electronics shut down if voltage >exceeds 20 volts. Maybe that's what they were using for DCC! I >assume the 8.5 V starting voltage for DC is to provide power for all >the electronics and bells and whistles. Yep, and if you read the other MR reviews, it is not uncommon for a loco with a DC constant lighting board to require 2 to 5 volts just to get everything up and running before it moves...8.5V DC seems a little high, but then again, there are lots of "bells and whistles" !! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Update on BLI Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 13:14:25 -0400 Friends: If I correctly remember some early electronics projects using a bridge rectifier to create constant and reversing locomotive headlights, a three volt drop was SOP since that was how much the diodes used up to create the voltage for the lights. Add some other electronics to the circuit with another voltage drop and 8 volts doesn't sound too bad. Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 10:43 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Update on BLI > John says: > >It's interesting, the MR review of the Hudson says that it achieved > >75 mph on DCC; but they never said what the DCC voltage was. > >They did mention that the engine's electronics shut down if voltage > >exceeds 20 volts. Maybe that's what they were using for DCC! I > >assume the 8.5 V starting voltage for DC is to provide power for all > >the electronics and bells and whistles. > > Yep, and if you read the other MR reviews, it is not uncommon for a loco > with a DC constant lighting board to require 2 to 5 volts just to get > everything up and running before it moves...8.5V DC seems a little high, > but then again, there are lots of "bells and whistles" !! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 16:55:11 -0400 From: Bill Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS PHL Chapter meeting date change Phil Ritter, the editor of the Philadelphia Chapter's newsletter, asked me to please notify members on the Internet that the next meeting will be Saturday, October 19th instead of October 12th due to church usage of the facilities. There will be a modelers meeting on the 19th (which was not scheduled for the 12th). Please pass this along. Thanks, Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] BLI voltage Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 21:51:26 +0000 Not ever having had an engine with so many electronic functions I have a couple of questions. If the engine starts moving at 8.5 volts does the motor see 8.5 volts before moving? If it does what is the long term effect on motor life to be in a stalled condition at rest? What do you see as motor life? Thanks, norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 18:25:20 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Update on BLI In a message dated 10/1/02 9:21:06 AM Central Daylight Time, bobsin@nac.net writes: << It's interesting, the MR review of the Hudson says that it achieved 75 mph on DCC; but they never said what the DCC voltage was. They did mention that the engine's electronics shut down if voltage exceeds 20 volts. >> If I understand my DCC correctly, it operates at 13.5 Volts. The speed is varied by pulse width modulation. The locomotive I saw demonstrated at the National Hobby show operated very smoothly on both DC and DCC. As I previously indicated on at least one list,maybe this one, on an NCE throttle the software in the locomotive was set up so that the display read in scale miles per hour on 128 speed step setting. I could start it at 1 mph and smoothly move it up in increments of one mph with complete control. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] BLI starting voltage question Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 18:13:48 +0000 Never having had an engine with all the electronics this purports to have I have a question about the starting voltage. Do all those faetures suck up the voltage or does the motor see 8.5 volts also? And if it does, what is the long term effect on it to sit there and not rotate? Do they burn out eventually? Thanks, norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 09:41:34 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: [PRR] CANCELLED - RailFest Dinner Get-Together Greetings to the groups, I only received two replies to the Hoss's dinner inquiry. One was planning to attend and one was not. I suspect that RailFest attendance from our groups may be down this year. Also, those who are attending may have plans to shoot the E8s Saturday evening on their westward journey. Well, we'll try again next year. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI starting voltage question Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 21:10:44 -0400 Norm: The "features" absorb the first few volts because they have a low power draw, or lower resistance/reluctance than the field coil windings in the DC motor. The motor doesn't get any voltage at all, the features create what is referred to as a "voltage drop". When the overall voltage increases enough to overcome or surpass the amount absorbed or "dropped" by the accessories, the motor will begin to turn over. Until you reach that higher voltage, there is no stall condition on the motor at all. The motor will react exactly the same at the higher voltage with the accessories as it would as if the features were not there, and it was getting all the voltage and starting at a lower voltage rate. I hope I got this right. Its been years. :-) Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:13 PM Subject: [PRR] BLI starting voltage question > Never having had an engine with all the electronics this purports to have I > have a question about the starting voltage. Do all those faetures suck up the > voltage or does the motor see 8.5 volts also? And if it does, what is the long > term effect on it to sit there and not rotate? Do they burn out eventually? > Thanks, norm Bell > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 08:32:31 EDT Subject: [PRR] FOM and TrucTrain decals, vehicles I'm going outside my era for some stuff to run at the club. Looking for the following: 1. (earlier) Did any Middle Division Fleet of Modernism decals ever materialize beyond the annual convention? If so, where? 2. (later) Does anyone make pre-1960 decals for PRR truck trailers? Years ago, I picked up one set Walthers made probably about 60 years ago---it would probably disintegrate if I used it, and one trailer won't do it. BCW decals are 1960's era. 3. Does anyone make a reasonably priced ribbed (vertical) side trailer of the era? Or a reasonably priced corrugated (horizontal) side the same? I need a length which will allow two on the 75 foot 1954 cars . I realize there is a $28 or so kit for the specific PRR trailer, but it wouldn't take many of those to break the bank. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 08:38:47 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] FOM and TrucTrain decals, vehicles Bob, Sounds like my kind of club! Where is it? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > I'm going outside my era for some stuff to run at the club. Looking for the > following: > > 1. (earlier) Did any Middle Division Fleet of Modernism decals ever > materialize beyond the annual convention? If so, where? > > 2. (later) Does anyone make pre-1960 decals for PRR truck trailers? Years > ago, I picked up one set Walthers made probably about 60 years ago---it would > probably disintegrate if I used it, and one trailer won't do it. BCW decals > are 1960's era. > > 3. Does anyone make a reasonably priced ribbed (vertical) side trailer of > the era? Or a reasonably priced corrugated (horizontal) side the same? I > need a length which will allow two on the 75 foot 1954 cars . > > I realize there is a $28 or so kit for the specific PRR trailer, but it > wouldn't take many of those to break the bank. > > Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 09:17:28 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Update on BLI 0100,0100,0100Bob Z. said DCC is 13.5 volts; this is probably a typical value for the peak (plus and minus) voltage, but NMRA S-9.1 states that the RMS value measured at the track shall not exceed by more than two volts the voltage specified in standard S9 for the applicable scale. So this is scale-dependent, but I don't have S9 handy. S- 9.1 goes on to say that in no case shall the peak amplitude exceed plus and minus 22 volts. Maybe such high values are only used in the large scales. The BLI locomotives probably have a pretty sophisticated way of using the applied voltages, and may treat DCC totally different from DC; they might for example have a series "diode drop" approach to DC, but on DCC not "waste" the 8.5 volts, since on DCC there is always plenty of voltage on the track to operate lights and whatnot. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Painting of freight cars - last gap filled Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 09:06:03 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C26A2D.9B6EAEF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi all! I didn't think that Jack could find it, but he did! The "missing" piece of the puzzle was the 1955 painting instructions (no, not lettering, just painting), which he managed to lay his hands on recently. This means we can put together the PRR's intentions for painting freight cars all the way from 1953 to 1961 (and later) without gaps. I will post the high points later, but it appears that several questions might have been answered. Key among these was the issue of roof painting and interior painting of open top cars. It appears that it was PRR's intention to get all of their new boxcars and covered hoppers' roofs (which were by this time almost exclusively galvanized steel) coated with asphaltum as the final coat. Repaints were simply painted over with fc color, presumably if the asphaltum didn't require maintenance. So, why were there so many cars that did not adhere to this practice? I think we need to talk to car shops folks to find this one out. There ARE clearly cars that did not get a coat of asphaltum. Why? It also appears that after a certain date (1953 at the latest), only new hoppers and gons had their interiors painted. ALL repaints and rebuilds were unpainted unless new steel was applied. Makes sense from a cost standpoint! What it means to us as modelers is a choice. If your cars are "unpainted since new" consider some "almost black" roofs and interior paint on open top cars (but not over wood). If repainted, you can do "peeling fc color over black/brown" or "completely peeled off paint showing asphaltum color", "peeling paint off of bare galvanized", or fc color alone. Your choice. Of course, it'd always be a good idea to check all the available photos of your car of choice to see what things appeared to be. Makes modeling more interesting, doesn't it? More later, and best of the day, Elden P.S. Rob S., get me your address! ------_=_NextPart_001_01C26A2D.9B6EAEF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Painting of freight cars - last gap filled

Hi all!
I didn't think that Jack could find it, but he = did!  The "missing" piece of the puzzle was the 1955 = painting instructions (no, not lettering, just painting), which he = managed to lay his hands on recently.  This means we can put = together the PRR's intentions for painting freight cars all the way = from 1953 to 1961 (and later) without gaps.  I will post the high = points later, but it appears that several questions might have been = answered.  Key among these was the issue of roof painting and = interior painting of open top cars.

It appears that it was PRR's intention to get all of = their new boxcars and covered hoppers' roofs (which were by this time = almost exclusively galvanized steel) coated with asphaltum as the final = coat.  Repaints were simply painted over with fc color, presumably = if the asphaltum didn't require maintenance.

So, why were there so many cars that did not adhere = to this practice?  I think we need to talk to car shops folks to = find this one out.  There ARE clearly cars that did not get a coat = of asphaltum.  Why?

It also appears that after a certain date (1953 at = the latest), only new hoppers and gons had their interiors = painted.  ALL repaints and rebuilds were unpainted unless new = steel was applied.  Makes sense from a cost standpoint!

What it means to us as modelers is a choice.  If = your cars are "unpainted since new" consider some = "almost black" roofs and interior paint on open top cars (but = not over wood).  If repainted, you can do "peeling fc color = over black/brown" or "completely peeled off paint showing = asphaltum color", "peeling paint off of bare = galvanized", or fc color alone.  Your choice.  Of = course, it'd always be a good idea to check all the available photos of = your car of choice to see what things appeared to be.  Makes = modeling more interesting, doesn't it?

More later, and best of the day,
Elden
P.S. Rob S., get me your address!

------_=_NextPart_001_01C26A2D.9B6EAEF0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 13:03:02 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Contact for NKP Car Co. Hello y'all, Does anyone have either a telephone or email contact for NKP Car Co., producer of brass car sides? I need to contact them about an order which appears to have gone astray, since they've cashed my check and I don't have the goods! In this day of instant communication, I'd hate to have to just send them a letter (I do have their snail mail)! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: Re: [PRR] Budd doodlebug Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:11:05 -0400 Norm, I just received the latest issue of the PRRT&HS's Philla chapter's Highline (vol 18 #2, autumn 2002) and it has an article about these cars. It has lots of photos, a reprint of a PR publication about them and pretty good plans. The cars were #'s 4688 & 4689. Originally classed OEG125 and OEG125a. They were later reclassed GEG125 & GEG125a and finally MPB48 & GEG190. The PRR floorplan diagram for the MPB48 is on my website @ http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=mpb48_fp.gif You should be able to get a copy from them. Check their website at: http://www.prrths.com/Phila_New_Index.htm Rob ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Budd doodlebug From: Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 13:08:39 +0000 Budd made a stainless steel fluted self propelled car with rubber tires that the PRR tried on the Norristown branch. Trains had a brief article on it many years ago. It was a disaster because it kept getting flat tires. Does anybody know of any good pictures or drawings that I could use to build one? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Garry Spear Subject: RE: [PRR] Painting of freight cars - last gap filled Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 16:08:40 -0400 Ok. Then is seems that the roofs of many of the new cars were not painted or covered with asphaltum. What color would the roof and end walks be painted or not painted. The new Branchline kits have black plastic roof and end walks. Were these painted or non painted metal or non painted wood. The question is what color do I paint these parts when I assemble these cars? Garry Spear -----Original Message----- From: ELDEN GATWOOD [SMTP:ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 12:06 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Painting of freight cars - last gap filled Hi all! I didn't think that Jack could find it, but he did! The "missing" piece of the puzzle was the 1955 painting instructions (no, not lettering, just painting), which he managed to lay his hands on recently. This means we can put together the PRR's intentions for painting freight cars all the way from 1953 to 1961 (and later) without gaps. I will post the high points later, but it appears that several questions might have been answered. Key among these was the issue of roof painting and interior painting of open top cars. It appears that it was PRR's intention to get all of their new boxcars and covered hoppers' roofs (which were by this time almost exclusively galvanized steel) coated with asphaltum as the final coat. Repaints were simply painted over with fc color, presumably if the asphaltum didn't require maintenance. So, why were there so many cars that did not adhere to this practice? I think we need to talk to car shops folks to find this one out. There ARE clearly cars that did not get a coat of asphaltum. Why? It also appears that after a certain date (1953 at the latest), only new hoppers and gons had their interiors painted. ALL repaints and rebuilds were unpainted unless new steel was applied. Makes sense from a cost standpoint! What it means to us as modelers is a choice. If your cars are "unpainted since new" consider some "almost black" roofs and interior paint on open top cars (but not over wood). If repainted, you can do "peeling fc color over black/brown" or "completely peeled off paint showing asphaltum color", "peeling paint off of bare galvanized", or fc color alone. Your choice. Of course, it'd always be a good idea to check all the available photos of your car of choice to see what things appeared to be. Makes modeling more interesting, doesn't it? More later, and best of the day, Elden P.S. Rob S., get me your address! << File: ATT00000.htm >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR-Modeling] RE: [PRR] Painting of freight cars - last gap Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 15:03:58 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C26A5F.9B50DB00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" OK, I seemed to have missed the point a bit. I would speculate that the ends ONLY (that overhanging the end) of the roofwalk would be fc color, with the part centered over the roof black. As-built. Repaints would be fc color all over. There would also be overspray from the painting of the sides that would tend to "feather" the color over the black, particularly on that portion of the roof that bends over and attaches to the sides. End walks might have a bit of overspray, but they are on the roof, so overwhelmingly black. Sound right? Elden -----Original Message----- From: Garry Spear [mailto:gspear01@erols.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 1:09 PM To: 'ELDEN GATWOOD'; PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com Subject: [PRR-Modeling] RE: [PRR] Painting of freight cars - last gap filled Ok. Then is seems that the roofs of many of the new cars were not painted or covered with asphaltum. What color would the roof and end walks be painted or not painted. The new Branchline kits have black plastic roof and end walks. Were these painted or non painted metal or non painted wood. The question is what color do I paint these parts when I assemble these cars? Garry Spear -----Original Message----- From: ELDEN GATWOOD [SMTP:ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 12:06 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Painting of freight cars - last gap filled Hi all! I didn't think that Jack could find it, but he did! The "missing" piece of the puzzle was the 1955 painting instructions (no, not lettering, just painting), which he managed to lay his hands on recently. This means we can put together the PRR's intentions for painting freight cars all the way from 1953 to 1961 (and later) without gaps. I will post the high points later, but it appears that several questions might have been answered. Key among these was the issue of roof painting and interior painting of open top cars. It appears that it was PRR's intention to get all of their new boxcars and covered hoppers' roofs (which were by this time almost exclusively galvanized steel) coated with asphaltum as the final coat. Repaints were simply painted over with fc color, presumably if the asphaltum didn't require maintenance. So, why were there so many cars that did not adhere to this practice? I think we need to talk to car shops folks to find this one out. There ARE clearly cars that did not get a coat of asphaltum. Why? It also appears that after a certain date (1953 at the latest), only new hoppers and gons had their interiors painted. ALL repaints and rebuilds were unpainted unless new steel was applied. Makes sense from a cost standpoint! What it means to us as modelers is a choice. If your cars are "unpainted since new" consider some "almost black" roofs and interior paint on open top cars (but not over wood). If repainted, you can do "peeling fc color over black/brown" or "completely peeled off paint showing asphaltum color", "peeling paint off of bare galvanized", or fc color alone. Your choice. Of course, it'd always be a good idea to check all the available photos of your car of choice to see what things appeared to be. Makes modeling more interesting, doesn't it? More later, and best of the day, Elden P.S. Rob S., get me your address! << File: ATT00000.htm >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Sharing and enjoying our memories and materials and methods to better reproduce the PRR in miniature ! To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-Modeling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . ------_=_NextPart_001_01C26A5F.9B50DB00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
OK, I seemed to have missed the point a bit.
I would speculate that the ends ONLY (that overhanging the end) of the roofwalk would be fc color, with the part centered over the roof black.  As-built.
Repaints would be fc color all over.  There would also be overspray from the painting of the sides that would tend to "feather" the color over the black, particularly on that portion of the roof that bends over and attaches to the sides.  End walks might have a bit of overspray, but they are on the roof, so overwhelmingly black.  Sound right?
Elden
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Garry Spear [mailto:gspear01@erols.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 1:09 PM
To: 'ELDEN GATWOOD'; PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PRR-Modeling] RE: [PRR] Painting of freight cars - last gap filled

Ok.  Then is seems that the roofs of many of the new cars were not painted
or covered with asphaltum.  What color would the roof and end walks be
painted or not painted.  The new Branchline kits have black plastic roof
and end walks.  Were these painted or non painted metal or non painted
wood.  The question is what color do I paint these parts when I assemble
these cars?

Garry Spear

-----Original Message-----
From:      ELDEN GATWOOD [SMTP:ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com]
Sent:      Wednesday, October 02, 2002 12:06 PM
To:      PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com
Subject:      RE: [PRR] Painting of freight cars - last gap filled

Hi all!
I didn't think that Jack could find it, but he did!  The "missing" piece of
the puzzle was the 1955 painting instructions (no, not lettering, just
painting), which he managed to lay his hands on recently.  This means we
can
put together the PRR's intentions for painting freight cars all the way
from
1953 to 1961 (and later) without gaps.  I will post the high points later,
but it appears that several questions might have been answered.  Key among
these was the issue of roof painting and interior painting of open top
cars.
It appears that it was PRR's intention to get all of their new boxcars and
covered hoppers' roofs (which were by this time almost exclusively
galvanized steel) coated with asphaltum as the final coat.  Repaints were
simply painted over with fc color, presumably if the asphaltum didn't
require maintenance.
So, why were there so many cars that did not adhere to this practice?  I
think we need to talk to car shops folks to find this one out.  There ARE
clearly cars that did not get a coat of asphaltum.  Why?
It also appears that after a certain date (1953 at the latest), only new
hoppers and gons had their interiors painted.  ALL repaints and rebuilds
were unpainted unless new steel was applied.  Makes sense from a cost
standpoint!
What it means to us as modelers is a choice.  If your cars are "unpainted
since new" consider some "almost black" roofs and interior paint on open
top
cars (but not over wood).  If repainted, you can do "peeling fc color over
black/brown" or "completely peeled off paint showing asphaltum color",
"peeling paint off of bare galvanized", or fc color alone.  Your choice.
Of
course, it'd always be a good idea to check all the available photos of
your
car of choice to see what things appeared to be.  Makes modeling more
interesting, doesn't it?
More later, and best of the day,
Elden
P.S. Rob S., get me your address!
<< File: ATT00000.htm >>


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------_=_NextPart_001_01C26A5F.9B50DB00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] SD-7 Decal Question Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 23:40:18 -0500 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C26A6D.1076DD00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gentlemen: First, I would like to thank all you replied to my question regarding the= radio antennas used on SD-7's and SD-9's. It really helped me out. I do have one question regarding the availability of the EMD biulders pla= tes in decal form. I am aware that Micro Scale has produced a set for eng= ines in general (87-0134). I have thsi sheet; however, there are only eno= ugh EMD decals (6), to do three engines. =20 My question is do you know if there are other producers of the EMD builde= rs plate (old version) in decal form? =20 TIA Ted M. Andrews ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C26A6D.1076DD00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gentlemen:
 
First, I would like to thank all you replied to= my question regarding the radio antennas used on SD-7's and SD-9's. It r= eally helped me out.
 
I do have one question = regarding the availability of the EMD biulders plates in decal form. I am= aware that Micro Scale has produced a set for engines in general (8= 7-0134). I have thsi sheet; however, there are only enough EMD decals (6)= , to do three engines.
 
My question is do yo= u know if there are other producers of the EMD builders plate (old versio= n) in decal form?
 
TIA
 
Ted M. Andrews

------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C26A6D.1076DD00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 21:36:48 -0700 (PDT) From: andy mulhollen Subject: [PRR] K4 #1361 Smokestack on eBay Greetings to the List, I just wanted to remind everyone of this weekends Railfest here in Altoona. We still have excursion seats left for sale. The origional smokestack from the K4 #1361 has been placed on eBay. There is a reserve. This stack had to be replaced as it was cracked and worn where it attatched to the smokebox (which also has been replaced). Please pass this info on to whomever you feel may be interested in it. Proceeds from this sale will be used in the K4 restoration project. Dr Andy Mulhollen Secretary Board of Directors Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] tunnels Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 12:50:58 +0000 I was thinking about tunnels and can only come up with five locations on the PRR: 1. the river tunnels into NYC 2. Baltimore 3. Spruce Creek 4. Tunnel Hill 5. Port Road Out here in the midwest people get nose bleeds from stepping up onto curbs so I doubt there are any this way but are there any others? That doesn't seem to be too many for the mileage the PRR had. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:04:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 Decal Question Ted, I know of no other "Hot Dog" builders plates. I think it is a ploy from Micro Scale to get you to keep buying sheet after sheet of decals by supplying you only a limited few on a sheet. It would be so simple for them to produce a complete sheet of hot dogs (how many would fit on a sheet- about 200 pair?). Even a small MC sheet could hold 50 pair! But then again, that would make too much sense. They rather have you spend $5.00 after $5.00 after $5.00.......... Just my $5.00 worth.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 09:07:14 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels From: Jerry Britton On 10/3/02 8:50 AM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > I was thinking about tunnels and can only come up with five locations on the > PRR: > 1. the river tunnels into NYC > 2. Baltimore > 3. Spruce Creek > 4. Tunnel Hill > 5. Port Road At the west end of the Rockville Bridge there are several underpasses that I think really should be termed "tunnels". I am not referring to the flyover of the passenger mains over the one set of Enola leads (which has a bridge structure), but rather the Enola leads closer to the river that go under the freight mains. Their construction does not include a bridge, but rather tunnel portals and tunnel linings, with earth above and around them. I've walked through two of them. They are tunnels. A technicality! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:08:09 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels In a message dated 10/3/02 7:58:27 AM Central Daylight Time, ndbprr@att.net writes: << are there any others? >> I don't know if it is long enough to qualify as a tunnel, but isn't the produce or team track yard in Washington reached by an underground (or underbuilding) arrangement of some sort? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:10:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels Norm, Add these 3 also: 1. Coming off the Port Perry Branch over the Mon River in Pittsburgh heading east. 2 Coming off the Panhandle Bridge in Pittsburgh over the Mon (tachnically not a land tunnel but it does tunnel under the city to the station)(now used as a mass transit bridge) 3. Goul (spelling) Tunnel on the Panhandle in Ohio......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:20:59 -0400 Norm, There's also the Virginia Avenue tunnel in Washington, DC. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 8:50 AM Subject: [PRR] tunnels > I was thinking about tunnels and can only come up with five locations on the > PRR: > 1. the river tunnels into NYC > 2. Baltimore > 3. Spruce Creek > 4. Tunnel Hill > 5. Port Road > > Out here in the midwest people get nose bleeds from stepping up onto curbs so I > doubt there are any this way but are there any others? That doesn't seem to be > too many for the mileage the PRR had. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:24:05 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels One of the divisions I was responsible for at one time, extended from "the west portal of Gould Tunnel." It was near Pittsburgh, as I recall. Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 09:26:47 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels There is the tunnel under the US Capitol Plaza from Union Station to L'Enfant Plaza area. It is used by all passenger trains from the PRR going south of DC. Was that PRR or Washington Union Terminal Co? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/3/02 7:58:27 AM Central Daylight Time, ndbprr@att.net > writes: > > << are there any others? >> > > I don't know if it is long enough to qualify as a tunnel, but isn't the > produce or team track yard in Washington reached by an underground (or > underbuilding) arrangement of some sort? > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 Decal Question Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:38:11 -0400 For HO, try the Micro Scale mini set #4056. This is just builders plates - nine different EMD and GE plates - 10 each. Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com Featuring over 10,000 IN-STOCK model railroad items 90A Jersey Avenue New Brunswick, NJ 08901 732-565-1555 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 09:45:51 -0400 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels Add the Saltsburg tunnel (new and old alignments) on the Connemaugh Division. Radebaugh on the Pittsburgh Division near Greensburg (daylighted when the track was realigned). Also one remaining on the Chartiers branch. There were two but one was daylighted when the state highway overhead was rebuilt. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 09:52:40 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels From: Jerry Britton On 10/3/02 8:50 AM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > I was thinking about tunnels and can only come up with five locations on the > PRR: > 1. the river tunnels into NYC > 2. Baltimore > 3. Spruce Creek > 4. Tunnel Hill > 5. Port Road There's a very old tunnel...no longer in use...just north of Columbia, Pa., on the Royalton Branch. It's underneath "Chickie's Rock". I think the name is "Flat Rock Tunnel", or is my memory confusing the name with the one on the Reading line along the Schuylkill expressway in Philadelphia? Where's Bruce Smith when you need him? ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 10:06:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels Norm Just remembered another one. Up near Red Bank, Pa. in Phillipsburg? Phillipston? Pa. I was there several years ago to check out the still standing (was then , not sure now) Coaling Tower. The tunnel is located right at the Phillipsburg? yard and I believe it heads north to Red Bank.....hasn't been in service since late PC or early CR days.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 07:09:41 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels --- SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > Add the Saltsburg tunnel (new and old alignments) on the Conemaugh > Division. Avonmore (old alignment), also Hyde Park, abandoned sometime before WW2. > Radebaugh on the Pittsburgh Division near Greensburg (daylighted > when the track was realigned). Actually, two tunnels at Radebaugh. The older one is still there but inaccessable. Once upon at time, downtown Greensburg. There is still a Tunnel Street in Greensburg but the tunnel was daylighted. Also Donahoe, before the 1900-1910 relocation of the main line. > Also one remaining on the Chartiers branch. There were two but one > was daylighted when the state highway overhead was rebuilt. On the Low Grade Branch of the Allegheny Division: Sabula (through the divide between Susquehanna and Ohio watersheds) and a short curved tunnel at Caledonia. On the main line of the Allegheny Division, tunnels at Brady's Bend and two other places (names escape me at the moment) which avoided loops in the Allegheny River. The RR originally followed around the loops, the tunnels were a later improvement. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 10:20:39 -0400 From: Alex Charyna Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels Flat-rock was a Reading Tunnel. It's visible from the Schuylkill Exp a few miles north of the Belmont Ave exit. You can read the stone at one of the entrances. I believe it was from 1840.. Philly Terminal Tunnels: >From 22nd Street (i think) into Suburban Station. It was a spur in PRR times, going to 16th street. Now it goes clear through under the old Reading Terminal and out at 9th Street north of Vine. Also, coming out of the upper level of 30th Street Station, the tracks headed South towards Arsenal go underneath 32nd Street for a few blocks. Also in that tunnel is a turnout which takes you out into the Race Street/Powelton Yard. Last I'd seen it, it looked in disrepair so I doubt Septa has used it. If ever. -alex On Thu, 03 Oct 2002 09:52:40 -0400 Jerry Britton wrote: > On 10/3/02 8:50 AM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > > > I was thinking about tunnels and can only come up with five locations on the > > PRR: > > 1. the river tunnels into NYC > > 2. Baltimore > > 3. Spruce Creek > > 4. Tunnel Hill > > 5. Port Road > > There's a very old tunnel...no longer in use...just north of Columbia, Pa., > on the Royalton Branch. It's underneath "Chickie's Rock". I think the name > is "Flat Rock Tunnel", or is my memory confusing the name with the one on > the Reading line along the Schuylkill expressway in Philadelphia? > > Where's Bruce Smith when you need him? ;-) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] tunnels Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 14:36:16 +0000 Looks like we are going to prtty much limit this to Pennsylvania except for Baltimore and DC. I wonder if there was ever a PRR generated list or department to maintain them? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 10:51:31 -0400 From: Christopher Hoess Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels On Thu, Oct 03, 2002 at 10:20:39AM -0400, Alex Charyna wrote: > > Also, coming out of the upper level of 30th Street Station, the tracks > headed South towards Arsenal go underneath 32nd Street for a few blocks. > Also in that tunnel is a turnout which takes you out into the Race > Street/Powelton Yard. > > Last I'd seen it, it looked in disrepair so I doubt Septa has used it. > If ever. That's one end of the old Gray's Ferry Branch, which has been abandoned for at least ten years and likely more. I notice no one has yet mentioned the Elizabethtown cut, which is a daylighted tunnel (although it may have been opened up in the Harrisburg, Portsmouth, Mt. Joy & Lancaster days) or the three tunnels on the "Port Road", Wildcat, Frazer, and Williams. The first two were south of the Pennsylvania line. For that matter, the responses I've seen have also admitted the two tunnels on the Schuylkill Valley Branch at Phoenixville and St. Clair, and (of course!) the New York tubes. -- Chris Hoess ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 10:57:53 -0400 Andy, That's the Virginia Avenue Tunnel I was referring to. It was a PRR tunnel leading to the Long Bridge over the Potomac, which was owned by PRR. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew S. Miller" To: Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:26 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels > There is the tunnel under the US Capitol Plaza from Union Station to L'Enfant > Plaza area. It is used by all passenger trains from the PRR going south of > DC. Was that PRR or Washington Union Terminal Co? > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 10/3/02 7:58:27 AM Central Daylight Time, ndbprr@att.net > > writes: > > > > << are there any others? >> > > > > I don't know if it is long enough to qualify as a tunnel, but isn't the > > produce or team track yard in Washington reached by an underground (or > > underbuilding) arrangement of some sort? > > > > Bob Zoeller > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > -- > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 10:52:29 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Looks like we are going to prtty much limit this to > Pennsylvania except for Baltimore and DC. Virginia Ave was not PRR, being either B&O or Washington Terminal (hint: Look at signals: CPL, unless changed... 8)>>) > I wonder if there was ever a PRR generated list or department to > maintain them? I'm guessing this was per division? Also: Has anyone mentioned Gallitzin? best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: [PRR] PRR districts, regions, divions Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 10:37:35 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C26AC8.E302A500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gents; Is there a "list", description or something, describing all the PRR = regions, divisions and so on? Earl Myers Lines West ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C26AC8.E302A500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gents;
 Is there a "list", description or = something,=20 describing all the PRR regions, divisions and so on?
Earl Myers
Lines West
------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C26AC8.E302A500-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 11:08:20 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels Many of the urban tunnels mentioned contained track that was originally at ground level. The track between 30th Street Station and Suburban Station used to be on the surface until the old Chinese Wall was torn down. Is it still a "tunnel" when the track is roofed over to allow construction on the air rights? A hole through a mountain is a tunnel. A tube under a river is a tunnel. But, if you fill in a crease or a valley, is it still a tunnel? Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Conan Evans" Subject: RE: [PRR] tunnels Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 11:23:10 -0400 On the Northern Central, is/was there a short, curving tunnel? I believe I've seen a pic in Trains, cir early '70's of a PC - E and (1) pass car exiting this tunnel. The caption mentioned how the '72 Agnes storm took this area of the line out. I'll check my archive. Conan Evans Bristow, VA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 11:24:47 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR districts, regions, divions From: Jerry Britton On 10/3/02 10:37 AM, Earl Myers (emyers5@neo.rr.com) wrote: > Is there a "list", description or something, describing all the PRR regions, > divisions and so on? Not over all time, but the organization from 1941 to 1968 is at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/prr_structure_1941-1968.html ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 10:46:14 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels Jerry mentioned >There's a very old tunnel...no longer in use...just north of Columbia, Pa., >on the Royalton Branch. It's underneath "Chickie's Rock". I think the name >is "Flat Rock Tunnel", or is my memory confusing the name with the one on >the Reading line along the Schuylkill expressway in Philadelphia? > >Where's Bruce Smith when you need him? ;-) Remarkably enough for me (the perfesser), I was teaching this morning ! Now, whetehr the students were doing any learning is another whole topic!!! The tunnel Jerry described was on the Columia branch, just north of Columbia PA. I've heard it called "Chickies tunnel", but Chickies Rock is actually furhter to the north. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 10:53:52 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: RE: [PRR] Contact for NKP Car Co. Howdy, I wanted to thank all of you who sent contact information for NKP Car Co. They have a nice web site at: http://www.nkpcarco.com/ and produce quite a variety of passenger car kits. Among their latest, and the one I'm waiting for is a PRR PB70d, a modernized PB70 combine, that I hope to paint in the "Fleet of Modernism" scheme. I got a VERY fast response from NKP and they assured me that the kits await one part from a resin caster, and since I have an order pending with that company too, and they have a BIG meet coming in Naperville at the end of this month, I should have my kits form both sources in November! Now all we need if for Middle Division to release their new FOM decal set! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 11:57:52 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels From: Jerry Britton On 10/3/02 11:23 AM, Conan Evans (cevans@onlinesecurities.net) wrote: > On the Northern Central, is/was there a short, curving tunnel? I believe > I've seen a pic in Trains, cir early '70's of a PC - E and (1) pass car > exiting this tunnel. The caption mentioned how the '72 Agnes storm took > this area of the line out. I'll check my archive. > YES! I can't believe I didn't remember it! Yes, it's just south of York, Pa. Was originally two track but is currently one track and a rail trail. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] tunnels Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:12:02 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C26AF7.9BAFC7D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" yes, there were also numerous tunnels along the Panhandle between Pittsburgh and Wheeling, including the one right off the Ohio River near Corliss that all the passenger stuff was sent through. Port Perry was (and is) between Pitcairn yard and the Monongahela River (and Port Perry bridge)/Monongahela Division/Branch. PRR/PC/Conrail each had large format books full of track plans that illustrated each structure or obstacle that crossed, in any way (over/under/across), every stretch of track on the railroad. These were for the maintenance crews. They contain really interesting info like date built, construction, type of crossing, etc. This includes tunnels, each of which has a name. Back in earlier days, PRR maintained gobs of pedestrian crossing bridges, too. These were installed in the heyday when PRR was looking to avoid more at-grade pedestrian accidents. As cars became more prevalent in the post-war period, these little bridges (most iron in my area) were much less utilized and many fell into disrepair. Regardless, each Region and Division had to keep them minimally maintained to prevent folks from falling through the boards and all. I remember dozens of them that had been closed down in late PRR and PC days by boarding off the ends, that we explored all the same. Each one of them appears on my old track charts. As part of the grade separation efforts, there were also numerous "tunnels" under many stretches of track that were created by the PRR to minimize at-grade crossings of vehicles, thereby minimizing stoppage of trains. But, I digress... Elden ------_=_NextPart_001_01C26AF7.9BAFC7D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] tunnels

yes, there were also numerous tunnels along the = Panhandle between Pittsburgh and Wheeling, including the one right off = the Ohio River near Corliss that all the passenger stuff was sent = through.  Port Perry was (and is) between Pitcairn yard and the = Monongahela River (and Port Perry bridge)/Monongahela = Division/Branch.

PRR/PC/Conrail each had large format books full of = track plans that illustrated each structure or obstacle that crossed, = in any way (over/under/across), every stretch of track on the = railroad.  These were for the maintenance crews.  They = contain really interesting info like date built, construction, type of = crossing, etc.  This includes tunnels, each of which has a = name.  Back in earlier days, PRR maintained gobs of pedestrian = crossing bridges, too.  These were installed in the heyday when = PRR was looking to avoid more at-grade pedestrian accidents.  As = cars became more prevalent in the post-war period, these little bridges = (most iron in my area) were much less utilized and many fell into = disrepair.  Regardless, each Region and Division had to keep them = minimally maintained to prevent folks from falling through the boards = and all.  I remember dozens of them that had been closed down in = late PRR and PC days by boarding off the ends, that we explored all the = same.  Each one of them appears on my old track charts.  As = part of the grade separation efforts, there were also numerous = "tunnels" under many stretches of track that were created by = the PRR to minimize at-grade crossings of vehicles, thereby minimizing = stoppage of trains.  But, I digress...

Elden

------_=_NextPart_001_01C26AF7.9BAFC7D0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 12:27:05 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels Dare I nominate the Long Island Rail Road Bay Ridge Branch, which disappears underground for a fair piece in the vicinity of East New York, passing under the LIRR Atlantic Branch? Not sure how this was constructed, whether this could have been a cut at one time, but there is a decent size hill over the northern part of the "tunnel." It may have been bored. Had catenary in its glory days. Anybody know about the tunnel? And of course there's most of the Atlantic Branch itself, clearly a cut-and-cover affair. The line is forced to the surface at East New York to clear the Bay Ridge line crossing beneath. Hey, those are still real position-light signals, at least on the elevated portions! John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 11:21:55 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: Budd doodlebug From: John Sheets Norm PBS did a show entitled "streamliners" they showed construction of the unit at the Budd Company plant and some finished photos of it on the Reading. It was RDG #72 It was used primarily on the New Hope Branch but had significant problems, esp with tires. Believe the PRR unit was the same or similar one. the floorplan Rob posted looks similar to the RDG unit, but the PRR MPB48 has a mail compartment. I have tape of the PBS show, and will send you a separate email with a photo of the RDG unit attached. Unfotunately photo is jot very clear, but will give you a general idea of the shape and outside config of the unit I know you are in Chicago, I will not be able to attend this w/e kickoff, but could send you the tape to borrow. You might also want to check the PBS website for resources. search under 'streamliners' Regards John -- John Sheets Vice President Sales & Marketing MPA Inc. 473 Dunham Road Saint Charles, Illinois 60174 PH: (630) 584-8556 Cell: (708) 710-3904 FAX: (630) 762-1452 Email: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RBurg74133@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 12:28:10 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels --part1_76.237b8cf6.2acdca1a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How about Radebaugh it was daylighted in the 50's? Ray Burghart SPF for over 50 years --part1_76.237b8cf6.2acdca1a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How about Radebaugh it was daylighted in the 50's?

Ray Burghart
SPF for over 50 years --part1_76.237b8cf6.2acdca1a_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 12:30:04 -0400 From: Zak Subject: [PRR] F7A Antenna Support Stand Query This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_fOiWQbyUBtGv8X+zFRmLrA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hello, List. I have started to modify a couple of Athearn F7As for a static display, and am using many of the items listed in "Greg Martin Details the Athearn Genesis F7's" article in Keystone Crossings. I have a couple of questions regarding the Cal-Scale (190-402 F-unit) antenna support stand package. I bought two packages. Each has only 13 supports. The photo with each package shows 14 supports. How many supports did the F7A have? If the photo is wrong and only 12 were used, fine, but could anyone direct me to a site with photos and/or diagrams showing the actual locations of the stands? If the photo is correct, could anyone give me either the web address or the e-mail address for Cal-Scale, as I'd like to get replacement packages. Thanks in advance. Zak --Boundary_(ID_fOiWQbyUBtGv8X+zFRmLrA) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Hello, List.
 
I have started to modify a couple of Athearn F7As for a static display, and am using many of the items listed in "Greg Martin Details the Athearn Genesis F7's" article in Keystone Crossings.
 
I have a couple of questions regarding the Cal-Scale (190-402 F-unit) antenna support stand package.
 
I bought two packages.  Each has only 13 supports.  The photo with each package shows 14 supports.
 
How many supports did the F7A have?
 
If the photo is wrong and only 12 were used, fine, but could anyone direct me to a site with photos and/or diagrams showing the actual locations of the stands?
 
If the photo is correct, could anyone give me either the web address or the e-mail address for Cal-Scale, as I'd like to get replacement packages.
 
Thanks in advance.
 
Zak
--Boundary_(ID_fOiWQbyUBtGv8X+zFRmLrA)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 12:49:50 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels There were 5 tunnels on the Lake Division's Marietta Branch, between Bayard and Marietta. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: STEVEGG1@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 13:03:44 EDT Subject: [PRR] tunnels --part1_64.264faabb.2acdd270_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Howard Tunnel on the Northern Central south of York. In fact, would this qualify as the oldest RR tunnel in the US? Steve Panopoulos --part1_64.264faabb.2acdd270_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Howard Tunnel on the Northern Central south of York. In fact, would this qualify as the oldest RR tunnel in the US?
Steve Panopoulos --part1_64.264faabb.2acdd270_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 10:23:18 -0700 From: Ron Dugas Subject: [PRR] A little more Radebaugh info. was Re: Tunnels Hi NDB, All, The once extant tunnels at Radebaugh, were just west of milepost 323.2? >From my 1953 track chart it seems track 1 converged with track 2 and, along with track 3, went through an 850' double track bore while track 4 diverged to the north and went through a separate 450' single track bore. I believe that one (both?) of these bores were daylighted though I don't and am not sure whether it (they?) were opened by the Pennsy or by PC or Conrail. Respectfully, Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 10:42:11 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] A little more Radebaugh info. was Re: Tunnels --- Ron Dugas wrote: > Hi NDB, All, > > The once extant tunnels at Radebaugh,... > I believe that one (both?) of these bores were daylighted > though I > don't and am not sure whether it (they?) were opened by the Pennsy > or by > PC or Conrail. I was resident in Latrobe when the main tunnel was daylighted. That would put it in the late 1950's or very early 1960's. The old tunnel remains as a tunnel, although I heard somewhere (Triumph I?) that it suffered a cave-in. Anyway, the work was done in PRR days, as I was gone from the area by the time PC came to be. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 13:53:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels On Thu, 3 Oct 2002 SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > Add the Saltsburg tunnel (new and old alignments) on the Connemaugh Division. > > Radebaugh on the Pittsburgh Division near Greensburg (daylighted when > the track was realigned). Well, there were 2 tunnels here; The tunnel on the new alignment was daylighted and the old one is still there. Also the Carney tunnel (bypassed by realignment but still there east of Donohoe) Carpenter's tunnel (bypassed by realignment and daylighted, or perhaps in the other order, and currently PA 993 just east of Trafford) 10 tunnels on the former Panhandle leading west out of Pittsburgh, some daylighted. At least 2, maybe more, I'm forgetting now, added on the Allegheny Valley to bypass loops in the river (Kennerdell is one; Another is near Brady's Bend) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: [PRR] Strasburg red caboose lodge Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 14:38:17 -0400 They're baaaack! "LANCASTER, Pa., 6:08 p.m. EDT October 2, 2002 - The Department of Environmental Protection shut down the Red Caboose Motel in Paradise Township, Lancaster County for the second time this year." (WGAL news) Again, nitrate levels were way too high and the owners failed to operate their nitrate removal system. AND, they didn't report the operation of their system to DEP. If they had made, or attempted to make, a court ordered report they would have realized that it wasn't turned on. This is either cupidity or stupidity or both; repeatedly and unnecessarily endangering people's health for profit. Lew Matt Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Septic and Energy Systems. Advocating sustainable composting toilets and gray water systems. Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 15:42:36 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] More on PRR tunnels Greetings to Jerry, Marty and the List: PRR referred to tunnels as either Natural or Artificial, and apparently the distinction wasn't always related to the difference in construction technique (cut-and-cover versus boring through rock). For example, PRR considered all six of its PT&T tunnels at Weehawken/Penn Station/Sunnyside Yard to be artificial (yet those weren't cut-and-cover), as well as all eleven of those related to the Suburban Station/30th Street/Zoo complex (most if not all of which *were* cut-and-cover). Besides the tunnels that have been noted in posts already, the following existed on Lines East. (On Lines West, most have already been mentioned here by others except for one or two on PRR's approach to Cincinnati and the three--one of them still active--that were on PRR's approach to Wheeling, W.Va.) Phila Div. Gallagherville Enola (3-these would be the artificial ones that Jerry mentioned) Schuylkill Div. Phoenixville Middle Div. East Altoona (artificial) Cresson Div. Carrolltown Pittsburgh Div. New Portage Lindencross Conemaugh Div. Bow Salina Leechburg Allegheny Div. Wood Hill Long Point Climax Brookville Summit Caledonia Williamsport Div. Paddy Mountain Beaver Dam (These two were on the ex-Lewisburg & Tyrone branch and one or both is/are still open as a rail-trail.) Sunbury St. Clair Baltimore Fulton St. Winans Marysville Also, considering those subsidiary roads that were closely held, there were/are at least two on the Monongahela Railway (one built in the late 1960s) and one on the Western Allegheny RR. Hope this helps, Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 16:12:16 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] More on PRR tunnels So what is the difference between a "natural" and an "artificial" tunnel? In Virginia, a natural tunnel is just that: one that was made by Mother Nature and later -- much later by about 1 million years -- used by the railroads. see: http://www.dcr.state.va.us/parks/naturalt.htm Jim McDaniel, living in tunnel-less Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 17:02:41 -0400 From: Christopher Hoess Subject: Re: [PRR] More on PRR tunnels Two more tunnels as yet unmentioned: The former mine tunnel on the Lykens Valley RR, used to bring that line north from Williamstown through the mountain into Bear Valley. If we can count predecessor roads, the eastern division of the Danville & Pottsville (only the western division survived to become part of the PRR system as the Shamokin Valley & Pottsville) built what I believe was the second rail tunnel in the U.S. just north of its connection with the Mt. Carbon RR at Wadesville. The tunnel was erased by strip mining after WWII. -- Chris Hoess ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 17:06:46 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels --part1_19c.9dbb4e4.2ace0b66_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/03/2002 10:09:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > On the main line of the Allegheny Division, tunnels at Brady's Bend > and two other places (names escape me at the moment) which avoided > loops in the Allegheny River. The RR originally followed around the > loops, the tunnels were a later improvement. > > > One of them is the Kennerdale Tunnel. I don't remember the name of the other. Rich Orr --part1_19c.9dbb4e4.2ace0b66_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/03/2002 10:09:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes:


On the main line of the Allegheny Division, tunnels at Brady's Bend
and two other places (names escape me at the moment) which avoided
loops in the Allegheny River. The RR originally followed around the
loops, the tunnels were a later improvement.




One of them is the Kennerdale Tunnel.  I don't remember the name of the other.

Rich Orr --part1_19c.9dbb4e4.2ace0b66_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] tunnels Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 21:13:27 +0000 So now that we have established there were in fact many should I assume that the vast bulk of them were stone lined? The lines east tunnels in Philadelphia and under the New York rivers were concrete lined I am pretty sure. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 17:24:01 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels Greetings to Rich, Jerry and the List: They were East Brady (2462 feet), Wood Hill (2733 feet) and Kennerdell (3513 feet). FWIW, PRR considered all 3 to be "artificial." Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 17:17:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels On Thu, 3 Oct 2002 SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > One of them is the Kennerdale Tunnel. I don't remember the name of the > other. Actually, I think 3: Kennerdell, Rockland and the one by East Brady. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 17:29:19 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels ndbprr@att.net wrote: > So now that we have established there were in fact many >should I assume that the vast bulk of them were stone lined? depends on the locality. In bad, or average ground, might be brick, or stone. In Hard Rock, might be no liner. > The lines east tunnels in Philadelphia Dunno. > and under the New York rivers were concrete lined Segmented iron rings, caulked, then concrete lined, IIR. best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 16:38:43 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels From: jeffrey d thomas The southernmost tunnel on the Marietta branch was at Ava, Ohio. I was cut through shale and sandstone and was not lined. Several cave-ins ocurred that I can remember, with the RR being shut down a few days each time. Jeff Thomas Denton, Tx. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 16:48:54 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" This may have been mentioned by a name I don't recognize. And I'm not even sure it is PRR. As you approach Oil City from Titusville, following Oil Creek, there is a sheer rock wall on your right. Just before the road makes a sharp right turn there is a tunnel portal into the rock wall. I have looked and cannot find the other end. I suspect the road was a former road bed. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: Jerry Britton >To: , PRR-Talk LIST >Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels >Date: Thu, 03 Oct, 2002, 8:07 > > On 10/3/02 8:50 AM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > >> I was thinking about tunnels and can only come up with five locations on the >> PRR: >> 1. the river tunnels into NYC >> 2. Baltimore >> 3. Spruce Creek >> 4. Tunnel Hill >> 5. Port Road > > At the west end of the Rockville Bridge there are several underpasses that I > think really should be termed "tunnels". > > I am not referring to the flyover of the passenger mains over the one set of > Enola leads (which has a bridge structure), but rather the Enola leads > closer to the river that go under the freight mains. Their construction does > not include a bridge, but rather tunnel portals and tunnel linings, with > earth above and around them. I've walked through two of them. They are > tunnels. > > A technicality! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: [PRR] railroad stuff for sale Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 18:17:11 -0400 Friends: I am slimming out my excess railroad stuff. I am having an e-bay sale on books and trains right now. E-mail me if you want the descriptions and e-bay URLs. ( One is a duplicate copy of the PRR Centennial book. That hasn't appeared on B&N.com or Amazon.com for some time.) Lew Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Septic and Energy Systems. Advocating sustainable composting toilets and gray water systems. Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 18:47:30 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels --part1_10.26187755.2ace2302_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/03/2002 6:17:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, harperd@tamug.tamu.edu writes: > As you approach Oil City from Titusville, following Oil Creek, there is a > sheer rock wall on your right. Just before the road makes a sharp right > turn there is a tunnel portal into the rock wall. I have looked and cannot > find the other end. I suspect the road was a former road bed. > > > This is not PRR trackage. It was either NYC or Erie. I don't recall at the moment and my materials are packed away. Rich Orr --part1_10.26187755.2ace2302_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/03/2002 6:17:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, harperd@tamug.tamu.edu writes:


As you approach Oil City from Titusville, following Oil Creek, there is a
sheer rock wall on your right.  Just before the road makes a sharp right
turn there is a tunnel portal into the rock wall.  I have looked and cannot
find the other end.  I suspect the road was a former road bed.




This is not PRR trackage.  It was either NYC or Erie.  I don't recall at the moment and my materials are packed away.

Rich Orr --part1_10.26187755.2ace2302_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 18:47:37 -0400 From: JerrySmed@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels How about the short ex-Camden & Amboy tunnel in Bordentown NJ? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Duane C. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 19:46:56 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00BD_01C26B15.A119C0E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The oldest railroad tunnel in the United States is the Staple Bend = tunnel near Mineral Point in Cambria County, Pennsylvania. It was built = for the Old Portage Railroad. It was recently restored by the National = Park Service and now can be hiked through. There is another PRR tunnel that I have not seen anyone mention. In = Cambria County, Pennsylvania, the PRR had a tunnel on the Susquehanna = branch between Spangler and Bradley Junction. The track through it has = been removed. If you travel on route 219 south of Carrolltown you pass = over this tunnel. Duane Miller ----- Original Message -----=20 From: STEVEGG1@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 1:03 PM Subject: [PRR] tunnels The Howard Tunnel on the Northern Central south of York. In fact, = would this qualify as the oldest RR tunnel in the US?=20 Steve Panopoulos=20 ------=_NextPart_000_00BD_01C26B15.A119C0E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The oldest railroad tunnel in the = United States is=20 the Staple Bend tunnel near Mineral Point in Cambria County, = Pennsylvania. =20 It was built for the Old Portage Railroad.  It was recently = restored by the=20 National Park Service and now can be hiked through.
 
There is another PRR tunnel that I have = not seen=20 anyone mention.  In Cambria County, Pennsylvania, the PRR had a = tunnel on=20 the Susquehanna branch between Spangler and Bradley Junction.  The = track=20 through it has been removed.  If you travel on route 219 south of=20 Carrolltown you pass over this tunnel.
 
Duane Miller
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 STEVEGG1@aol.com=20
Sent: Thursday, October 03, = 2002 1:03=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] tunnels

The Howard Tunnel on the Northern Central south = of York. In=20 fact, would this qualify as the oldest RR tunnel in the US?
Steve=20 Panopoulos ------=_NextPart_000_00BD_01C26B15.A119C0E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 19:51:20 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] F&C H30A In a message dated 9/29/02 4:46:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, billd@gci-net.com writes: << One of the reasons I > picked 255763 was the picture showed the car with > roller bearing trucks; I used Kadee's 70 ton roller > bearing trucks (and 58 couplers). >> Wern't the roller bearing trucks a major factor in what made an H30 an H30a? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 19:55:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg red caboose lodge In a message dated 10/3/02 2:43:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lmatt@alltel.net writes: << They're baaaack! "LANCASTER, Pa., 6:08 p.m. EDT October 2, 2002 - The Department of Environmental Protection shut down the Red Caboose Motel in Paradise Township, Lancaster County for the second time this year." (WGAL news) This is either cupidity or stupidity or both; repeatedly and unnecessarily endangering people's health for profit. >> Either that or an ultra liberal government agency harrassing honest business people - just for the heck of it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 20:00:11 EDT Subject: [PRR] Oil City In a message dated 10/3/02 5:54:16 PM, SUVCWORR@aol.com writes: << In a message dated 10/03/2002 6:17:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, harperd@tamug.tamu.edu writes: > As you approach Oil City from Titusville, following Oil Creek, there is a > sheer rock wall on your right. Just before the road makes a sharp right > turn there is a tunnel portal into the rock wall. I have looked and cannot > find the other end. I suspect the road was a former road bed. >> Oil City was part of the Pennsy's Northern Division when I was based in Buffalo. I remember a trip to Oil City, Titusville and Tionesta and walking by a used car dealer who had two Cord automobiles, one white and the other red, parked on his lot and for sale at a price that, as I recall, was outrageous. I often think of those cars. There was a place for sandwiches called Isalys. Does it still exist? But, there was a yard in Oil City that I recall as being very large and on a piece of flat ground in a bowl-like valley. It was very large and I've wonder ed what happened to that property as the Pennsy disappeared. I remember the ATM spending a couple of hours teaching me to get on and off moving locomotives. Note, that even on the pre-PC days, we'd tear up track whenever we abandoned train operations because we could sell the steel as scrap and the property taxes (local, county and state) were lower without track than with. Is the Oil City yard still there? What happened to the city after bankruptcy? Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 20:38:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels On Thu, 3 Oct 2002, Duane C. Miller wrote: > The oldest railroad tunnel in the United States is the Staple Bend tunnel near Mineral Point in Cambria County, Pennsylvania. It was built for the Old Portage Railroad. It was recently restored by the National Park Service and now can be hiked through. > > There is another PRR tunnel that I have not seen anyone mention. In > Cambria County, Pennsylvania, the PRR had a tunnel on the Susquehanna > branch between Spangler and Bradley Junction. The track through it has > been removed. If you travel on route 219 south of Carrolltown you pass > over this tunnel. I think Dan mentioned it. You can sort of get a look at one end of it from a road which intersects 219. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 20:40:24 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 Decal Question --part1_f2.22d4ce54.2ace3d78_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How about a custom decal sheet containing builders plates for all of the loco manufacturers? Many be a fund raising project for one of the tech. & hist. society chapters? After all, the Pennys had a good selection of all of the loco brands and modelers outside of the SPF circle would be interested. Evan Leisey --part1_f2.22d4ce54.2ace3d78_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How about a custom decal sheet containing builders plates for all of the loco manufacturers?   Many be a fund raising project for one of the tech. & hist. society chapters?  After all,  the Pennys had a good selection of all of the loco brands and modelers outside of the SPF circle would be interested.

Evan Leisey --part1_f2.22d4ce54.2ace3d78_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 20:41:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg red caboose lodge On Thu, 3 Oct 2002 VVA249@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/3/02 2:43:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lmatt@alltel.net > writes: > > << They're baaaack! > > "LANCASTER, Pa., 6:08 p.m. EDT October 2, 2002 - The Department of > Environmental Protection shut down the Red Caboose Motel in Paradise > Township, Lancaster County for the second time this year." (WGAL news) > > This is either cupidity or stupidity or both; repeatedly and unnecessarily > endangering people's health for profit. >> > > Either that or an ultra liberal government agency harrassing honest business > people - just for the heck of it. Political talk is presumably way off topic for this list. I will however point out that the leadership of DEP was appointed by the current Republican administration in PA, so if you're looking for a conspiracy, looking at the liberals will probably result in them looking back at you. -D -centrist ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 18:04:50 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels From: "Douglas Nelson" > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3116513090_56712_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Although never used by the PRR, Staple Bend Tunnel was PRR property after they acquired the assets of the Main Line Canal and Allegheny Portage Railway. Doug Nelson --MS_Mac_OE_3116513090_56712_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] tunnels
Although never used by the PRR, Staple Bend Tunnel was PRR prop= erty after they acquired the assets of the Main Line Canal and Allegheny Por= tage Railway.

Doug Nelson
--MS_Mac_OE_3116513090_56712_MIME_Part-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 21:23:35 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg red caboose lodge --part1_71.26ae5e28.2ace4797_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/3/02 5:13:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, VVA249@aol.com writes: > Either that or an ultra liberal government agency harrassing honest business > > people - just for the heck of it. > > I don't believe thats the case. The Red Caboose has never been the same since the new owners took over back in the early to mid nineties. Jon S. --part1_71.26ae5e28.2ace4797_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/3/02 5:13:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, VVA249@aol.com writes:


Either that or an ultra liberal government agency harrassing honest business
people - just for the heck of it.



I don't believe thats the case. The Red Caboose has never been the same since the new owners took over back in the early to mid nineties. 

Jon S. --part1_71.26ae5e28.2ace4797_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 21:34:47 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg red caboose lodge What is the significance of the Red Caboose Lodge? Can some one provide some context? Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 18:53:18 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels --- SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/03/2002 10:09:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > > > On the main line of the Allegheny Division, tunnels at Brady's > Bend > > and two other places (names escape me at the moment) which > avoided > > loops in the Allegheny River. The RR originally followed around > the > > loops, the tunnels were a later improvement. > > > > One of them is the Kennerdale Tunnel. I don't remember the name of > the > other. And, while thinking of the Allegheny Division's Low Grade Branch, I forgot the tunnel at Brookville. That makes 3 on the LG Branch and if someone says there's another one somewhere between New Bethlehem and Lawsonham, I'll not disagree. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Strasburg red caboose lodge Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 22:14:58 -0400 http://www.redcaboosemotel.com/ See for yourself. It is a shame that such a unique motel is rolling down the wrong track. I find it hard to believe that they do not make money. They are the nearest motel to the Strasburg RR and the Railroad Museum of PA. They are always busy when I am out there. Compared to the original owners, the present owners obviously have a different vision for the motels future, or someone in the government has it out for them. They should take some journal box lubricant and grease some palms with it! -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of LAMAassoc@aol.com Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:35 PM To: JONS6755@aol.com; VVA249@aol.com; lmatt@alltel.net; Prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg red caboose lodge What is the significance of the Red Caboose Lodge? Can some one provide some context? Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John W Rosenbauer" Subject: Re: [PRR] A little more Radebaugh info. was Re: Tunnels Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 22:28:34 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert netzlof" To: ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 1:42 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] A little more Radebaugh info. was Re: Tunnels > --- Ron Dugas wrote: > > Hi NDB, All, > > > > The once extant tunnels at Radebaugh,... > > I believe that one (both?) of these bores were daylighted > > though I > > don't and am not sure whether it (they?) were opened by the Pennsy > > or by > > PC or Conrail. > > I was resident in Latrobe when the main tunnel was daylighted. That > would put it in the late 1950's or very early 1960's. 64~~65. K-Mart store on Rt 30 was open cause someone stuffed a bit too much blasting gell in a hole and put several 40~~50 pound rocks through it's roof. I remember the pics on the front page of the Tribune Review. >The old tunnel > remains as a tunnel, although I heard somewhere (Triumph I?) that it > suffered a cave-in. As result of Hurricane Agness in 72. John W Rosenbauer --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Citizens Internet Services with Declude Virus v 1.61] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 22:27:59 -0400 From: "David R. Campbell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Oil City I grew up in Oil City, leaving in 1992 after 36 years. The tunnel you speak of was on the NYC, possibly former LS&MS . Both the Erie and the NYC followed the Allegheny from Franklin North to Oil City. The Erie continued across Oil Creek where it joined the Allegheny while the NYC curved through the hillside (known as Hogback) and terminated North of the North tunnel portal near the area known as White bridge. They had a turntable there. There was three in Oil City by the way. The south side of this tunnel was covered over. If you come around that hillside and turn right up the road to Dempseytown you will pass a small replica of an Oil Derrick in the wye created by the roads. The portal was in that area, to the right of the highway. The road crossed the tracks on a small wooden bridge. The tracks then continued at an angle until they crossed Route 8 and ran between the highway and the river to Franklin. I remember a feed store along the tracks near there. David Campbell Norton, VA LAMAassoc@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/3/02 5:54:16 PM, SUVCWORR@aol.com writes: > > << In a message dated 10/03/2002 6:17:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > harperd@tamug.tamu.edu writes: > > > As you approach Oil City from Titusville, following Oil Creek, there is a > > sheer rock wall on your right. Just before the road makes a sharp right > > turn there is a tunnel portal into the rock wall. I have looked and cannot > > find the other end. I suspect the road was a former road bed. >> > > Oil City was part of the Pennsy's Northern Division when I was based in > Buffalo. I remember a trip to Oil City, Titusville and Tionesta and walking > by a used car dealer who had two Cord automobiles, one white and the other > red, parked on his lot and for sale at a price that, as I recall, was > outrageous. I often think of those cars. > > There was a place for sandwiches called Isalys. Does it still exist? > > But, there was a yard in Oil City that I recall as being very large and on a > piece of flat ground in a bowl-like valley. It was very large and I've wonder > ed what happened to that property as the Pennsy disappeared. I remember the > ATM spending a couple of hours teaching me to get on and off moving > locomotives. Note, that even on the pre-PC days, we'd tear up track whenever > we abandoned train operations because we could sell the steel as scrap and > the property taxes (local, county and state) were lower without track than > with. > > Is the Oil City yard still there? What happened to the city after bankruptcy? > > Regards, Marty > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 22:48:13 -0400 From: "David R. Campbell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Oil City It's NS now, the yard is still there and power was parked there the last time I was up there which was a few weeks ago. The Pennzoil refinery has shut down I believe so there is not much going on. The yard was almost vacant. There is also north yard near Rouseville in the area of the refinery which was also heavily used. The tracks extend North to the other side of Rouseville and connect with the Oil Creek and Titusville. Isalys is gone, we used get in trouble for running through the place as there was an entrance on both Seneca (front) and Elm (back) streets. The city did ok after bankruptcy, lot's of businesses moved out, Pennzoil, Quaker State, etc. all are gone. I work for one of the few large employers in the area, Joy Mining Machinery in Franklin 8 miles south. The pennsy line along the south side of the river to Franklin is a bike trail. David Campbell Norton, VA LAMAassoc@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/3/02 5:54:16 PM, SUVCWORR@aol.com writes: > > << In a message dated 10/03/2002 6:17:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > harperd@tamug.tamu.edu writes: > > > As you approach Oil City from Titusville, following Oil Creek, there is a > > sheer rock wall on your right. Just before the road makes a sharp right > > turn there is a tunnel portal into the rock wall. I have looked and cannot > > find the other end. I suspect the road was a former road bed. >> > > Oil City was part of the Pennsy's Northern Division when I was based in > Buffalo. I remember a trip to Oil City, Titusville and Tionesta and walking > by a used car dealer who had two Cord automobiles, one white and the other > red, parked on his lot and for sale at a price that, as I recall, was > outrageous. I often think of those cars. > > There was a place for sandwiches called Isalys. Does it still exist? > > But, there was a yard in Oil City that I recall as being very large and on a > piece of flat ground in a bowl-like valley. It was very large and I've wonder > ed what happened to that property as the Pennsy disappeared. I remember the > ATM spending a couple of hours teaching me to get on and off moving > locomotives. Note, that even on the pre-PC days, we'd tear up track whenever > we abandoned train operations because we could sell the steel as scrap and > the property taxes (local, county and state) were lower without track than > with. > > Is the Oil City yard still there? What happened to the city after bankruptcy? > > Regards, Marty > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] F7A Antenna Support Stand Query Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 21:56:31 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0621_01C26B27.BB52D660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Zak--There should be 14 supports. Sometimes the castings don't get = made right and one of the supports attached to the sprue doesn't turn = out right. I have found that when this happens the folks at CalScale = will include a single unattached support as a replacement in the = package. Of course, anything can happen as likely did in your case. I = like to keep an extra set around because I have been known to lose a = support. CalScale is part of Bowser; their contact info is at=20 http://www.bowser-trains.com/ Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ------=_NextPart_000_0621_01C26B27.BB52D660 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Zak--There should be 14 = supports. =20 Sometimes the castings don't get made right and one of the supports = attached to=20 the sprue doesn't turn out right.  I have found that when this = happens the=20 folks at CalScale will include a single unattached support as a = replacement in=20 the package.  Of course, anything can happen as likely did in your=20 case.  I like to keep an extra set around because I have been known = to lose=20 a support.  CalScale is part of Bowser; their contact info is at=20
http://www.bowser-trains.com/<= /FONT>
 
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL
------=_NextPart_000_0621_01C26B27.BB52D660-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] F&C H30A Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 22:08:52 -0500 wrote-- > > Wern't the roller bearing trucks a major factor in what made an H30 an H30a? > The Summer 2002 Keystone shows photos of both the H30 and H30a; both have plain bearing trucks, although the trucks are of different styles. According to the December 1982 Keystone, the H30a has 36" wheels insted of 33" as on the H30, as well as "several minor changes". Both issues show an H33 as built new in 1953 with roller bearing trucks. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 07:47:11 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg red caboose lodge LAMAassoc@aol.com wrote: > What is the significance of the Red Caboose Lodge? Constructed (in part?) from redecorated Caboose (cabin car) Shells. Handy (as noted) to Museum and Strasburg RR. best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 08:30:06 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] F&C H30A I thought the major difference was the H30a had a fabricated bolster and the H30 had a cast bolster. (plus other details) BTW talking of H30s, the classic builder's photos in CBC show a running board integral with the roof, not affixed afterward on supports. I have never seen a another photo of an H30 so built. Was this a one-off prototype, never duplicated, or have I not seen enough photos? ;-) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Steve Hoxie wrote: > wrote-- > > > > Wern't the roller bearing trucks a major factor in what made an H30 an > H30a? > > > The Summer 2002 Keystone shows photos of both the H30 and H30a; both have > plain bearing trucks, although the trucks are of different styles. > According to the December 1982 Keystone, the H30a has 36" wheels insted of > 33" as on the H30, as well as "several minor changes". Both issues show an > H33 as built new in 1953 with roller bearing trucks. > > Steve Hoxie > Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 07:55:38 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels >ndbprr@att.net wrote: > >> So now that we have established there were in fact many > >>should I assume that the vast bulk of them were stone lined? > > depends on the locality. > In bad, or average ground, might be brick, or stone. > In Hard Rock, might be no liner. To which I add that the three tunnels on the C&PD (Port Road) and the tunnel on the Columbia branch were all unlined. The former 3 had catenary through them, of course. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Tunnels Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 13:01:24 +0000 Do we consider the Pennsylvania Turnpike tunnels as PRR? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 06:40:32 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Tunnels --- ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Do we consider the Pennsylvania Turnpike tunnels as PRR? I would think not. They were constructed (so far as they were constructed) by the South Pennsylvania RR, which at the time was backed by NYC interests and intended as a rival to the PRR. In the settlement between NYC and PRR, PRR was to acquire the South Penn and the Beech Creek, but the provision in the PA constitution barring mergers between parallel railroads caused a court to enjoin PRR from acquiring either. On the other hand, when the turnpike was begun, the commission did pay PRR and B and O a megabuck each for whatever rights each may have owned in the South Penn property; so someone, somewhere may have believed that PRR had some ownership interest. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 10:28:46 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Holiday Open Houses - Request for Schedules From: Jerry Britton The holiday season will soon be upon us. Can you believe it? And with the holiday season comes model railroad open houses. If your home or club layout has a Pennsy flavor and will be open between now and January, please send me the dates, name of the layout and scale, one or two sentence description, address, and contact name and e-mail address. I will post this information on the Timetable page of Keystone Crossings... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/timetable.ws4d ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 10:46:37 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Tunnels From: Jerry Britton On 10/4/02 9:01 AM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > Do we consider the Pennsylvania Turnpike tunnels as PRR? > More likely NYC. It was an NYC project to build the "South Penn". ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 09:59:43 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Oil City From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" I was there July two years ago and there was a lone NS engine and a CR caboose in the yard. No cars at all. Isalys is gone, but thank the Powers that be, you can still get Klondike ice cream squares. ---------- >From: "David R. Campbell" wrote: > It's NS now, the yard is still there and power was parked there the last time I > was up there which was a few weeks ago. The Pennzoil refinery has shut down I > believe so there is not much going on. The yard was almost vacant. There is also > north yard near Rouseville in the area of the refinery which was also heavily > used. The tracks extend North to the other side of Rouseville and connect with > the Oil Creek and Titusville. > > Isalys is gone,..... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 10:58:18 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] C&PD tunnels Hi Gang, Just for kicks, if any of you care, here are the C&PD tunnels from outer space (that is, terraserver satelite images)! William's tunnel http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=10&T=1&X=1974&Y=21996&Z=18&W=2 Frazer's tunnel http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=10&T=1&X=1975&Y=21986&Z=18&W=2 Wildcat tunnel http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=10&T=1&X=1976&Y=21982&Z=18&W=2 Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] F&C H30A Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 11:57:10 -0500 Hi Andy--You wrote-- > > I thought the major difference was the H30a had a fabricated bolster and the > H30 had a cast bolster. (plus other details) > >From Richard Burg's article in the Keystone of December 1982, "It has been suggested in the modeling press that another difference between H30 and H30a was the use of cast bolsters on the former and welded on the later, but this is not the case. The first two orders for H30 in 1935 has one piece cast bolsters, subsequent orders were built with various styles of welded bolsters. At first these welded versions closely followed the basic pattern established by the cast type, but on later orders they looked quite different from the cast type of bolster. Oddly, at least some of the H30a order received cast bolsters which possibly turned up in storage somewhere." > > BTW talking of H30s, the classic builder's photos in CBC show a running board > integral with the roof, not affixed afterward on supports. I have never seen a > another photo of an H30 so built. Was this a one-off prototype, never > duplicated, or have I not seen enough photos? ;-) > In the previous paragraph in the article, Burg wrote,"Other differences included the use of a more typical grid type roofwalk and the redesigning of the hopper door and the redesigning of the hopper door rather than ending at braces descending from the slope sheets as on H30." It would seem the roofwalk on the H30 was different. Photos of the top of these cars must be scarce, but somewhere I have seen a photo looking down on an H30 from one of the bridges over the Altoona shop complex. As I recall there was another car in the photo which may have been the subject of the photo. I think the photo was in the Keystone, but I haven't been able to page thru all my issues. Maybe this will stir somone else's memory. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 13:26:10 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] F&C H30A --part1_e4.2e85bac7.2acf2932_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/4/02 1:06:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, steveh@dotstar.net writes: > > BTW talking of H30s, the classic builder's photos in CBC show a running > board > > integral with the roof, not affixed afterward on supports. I have never > seen a > > another photo of an H30 so built. Was this a one-off prototype, never > > duplicated, or have I not seen enough photos? ;-) > > > In the previous paragraph in the article, Burg wrote,"Other differences > included the use of a more typical grid type roofwalk and the redesigning > of > the hopper door and the redesigning of the hopper door rather than ending > at > braces descending from the slope sheets as on H30." It would seem the > roofwalk on the H30 was different. Photos of the top of these cars must be > scarce, but somewhere I have seen a photo looking down on an H30 from one > of > the bridges over the Altoona shop complex. As I recall there was another > car in the photo which may have been the subject of the photo. I think the > photo was in the Keystone, but I haven't been able to page thru all my > issues. Maybe this will stir somone else's memory. > > Steve Hoxie > Pensacola FL Hi Steve and others, Photos of roofs of both the H30 and H30a covered hoppers appear on page 7 of the Autumn 1987 (Vol. 20, No. 3) issue of the Keystone. Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_e4.2e85bac7.2acf2932_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/4/02 1:06:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, steveh@dotstar.net writes:


> BTW talking of H30s,   the classic builder's photos in CBC show a running
board
> integral with the roof, not affixed afterward on supports.  I have never
seen a
> another photo of an H30 so built.  Was this a one-off prototype, never
> duplicated, or have I not seen enough photos? ;-)
>
In the previous paragraph in the article, Burg wrote,"Other differences
included the use of a more typical grid type roofwalk and the redesigning of
the hopper door and the redesigning of the hopper door rather than ending at
braces descending from the slope sheets as on H30."  It would seem the
roofwalk on the H30 was different.  Photos of the top of these cars must be
scarce, but somewhere I have seen a photo looking down on an H30 from one of
the bridges over the Altoona shop complex.  As I recall there was another
car in the photo which may have been the subject of the photo.  I think the
photo was in the Keystone, but I haven't been able to page thru all my
issues.  Maybe this will stir somone else's memory.

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL


Hi Steve and others,

Photos of roofs of both the H30 and H30a covered hoppers appear on page 7 of the Autumn 1987 (Vol. 20, No. 3) issue of the Keystone.

Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_e4.2e85bac7.2acf2932_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 13:44:13 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Woman Shocked, Burned On Top Of Train From: Jerry Britton http://www.msnbc.com/local/wgal/A1344906.asp Woman Shocked, Burned On Top Of Train ELIZABETHTOWN, Pa., 1:24 p.m. EDT October 4, 2002 - A woman suffered second- and third-degree burns on 75 percent of her body after being shocked by an electrical wire at the Elizabethtown Train Station. Amtrak officials said the woman was found on top of a Norfolk Southern boxcar shortly after midnight Friday. She had come in contact with an electrical wire that sent 11,000 volts of electricity through her. She is being treated at Lehigh Valley Burn Center. Her name is not being released at this time, but officials told News 8 she is about 20 years of age and from the area. Amtrak is investigating the incident. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] The Broadway Limited Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 14:10:05 -0400 >From the Conrail Technical Society: Amtrak Train 41 on Norfolk Southern and CSXT Revised Effective October 27th, 2002: 1:45 PM NYP 2:04 PM NWK 2:50 PM TRE 3:50 PM PHL 4:19 PM PAO 5:10 PM LNC 6:10 PM HAR 7:23 PM LEW 8:02 PM HGD 8:47 PM ALT 9:47 PM JST 10:28 PM LAB 10:40 PM GNB 11:59 PM PGH 1:47 AM YTO 2:48 AM AKO 4:34 AM FOS 6:58 AM NPI 7:37 AM HMI 9:20 AM CHI It seems like the Amtrak "equivalent" of the Broadway will last a little longer. BTW How does this schedule compare to 1938, 1948, 1956? I know it takes a different route west of PGH. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 14:37:20 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Trackside/roadside culture: Isaly's (somewhat off-topic) Greetings to Don, Jerry, the List, and all Youns in Western Pa.: The story of the Klondike bars and the Isaly's family-owned deli/dairy/ice cream chain (which operated more than 600 stores in dozens of PRR towns in western Pa., Ohio, Indiana, and West Virginia--required tuscan content) is told in Brian Butko's book "Klondikes, Chipped Ham & Skyscraper Cones, the Story of Isaly's" by Stackpole Books (www.stackpolebooks.com) There is also an Isaly's historical website: www.isalys.com. Only about a dozen stores remain. The firm was a regional cultural icon like Giant Iggle supermarkets, Clark bars, and Iron City and Rolling Rock beer. It had stores all over PRR-land out there--Fort Wayne, Akron, Alliance, Canton, Columbus, Cleveland, Lima, Youngstown (several dozen locations), Pittsburgh (several dozen locations), Ambridge, Beaver Falls, Blairsville, Braddock, Brownsville, Butler, Conway, Carnegie, Greensburg, Homestead, Jeanette, Johnstown, Kittanning, Latrobe, New Castle, Oil City (of course), Rochester, Sewickley, Swissvale, Titusville, Waynesburg, Washington, Wilmerding, Weirton and Wheeling, to name just a few. Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 15:40:21 -0300 From: A Samostie Subject: Re: [PRR] The Broadway Limited Dear Group, 7:37 am in Hammond, 9:20 am in Chicago?? Are you SURE that's not supposed to be 8:20 am? If these times are correct, that is an unacceptably long time to get from Hammond to Union Station, terminal congestion or not. Also, my collection of old time tables was destroyed, so I don't remember what major stops the Broadway made west of Pittsburgh (other than Valparaiso). Can anyone list the major stops that the train made across Ohio and Indiana before the route shift? What were the scheduled arrival times in Altoona and Pittsburgh prior to track deterioration? Thanks, Alan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 14:48:30 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg red caboose lodge Greetings to Marty, Jerry and the List: Also, many of the cabin cars are ex-PRR, including class N5 and the hilarious life-imitates-art Lionel Lines N5C #536417 (its Lionel number). And the restaurant "diner" is located in a P70 coach. Dan Cupper LAMAassoc@aol.com wrote: > > What is the significance of the Red Caboose Lodge? Can some one provide some > context? > > Regards, Marty > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 14:48:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Trackside/roadside culture: Isaly's (somewhat off-topic) --part1_11d.18201230.2acf3c86_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan and all interested, MTH Electric Trains is also offering a series of Isalys boxs cars in O Gauge. I think you'll find them interesting ! Jon S. --part1_11d.18201230.2acf3c86_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan and all interested,

MTH Electric Trains is also offering a series of Isalys boxs cars in O Gauge. I think you'll find them interesting !

Jon S. --part1_11d.18201230.2acf3c86_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 15:08:56 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Trackside/roadside culture: Isaly's (somewhat off-topic) From: Jerry Britton On 10/4/02 2:37 PM, Dan Cupper (cupper@att.net) wrote: > The story of the Klondike bars and the Isaly's family-owned > deli/dairy/ice cream chain (which operated more than 600 stores in > dozens of PRR towns in western Pa., Ohio, Indiana, and West > Virginia--required tuscan content) is told in Brian Butko's book > "Klondikes, Chipped Ham & Skyscraper Cones, the Story of Isaly's" by > Stackpole Books (www.stackpolebooks.com) There is also an Isaly's > historical website: www.isalys.com. Only about a dozen stores remain. > Thanks for the URL's, Dan! The thought of "Isaly's" certainly seems to be triggering the memories of many who visited one or more of their many stores. Seems to me that if you model western PA, OH, or WV in the 1950's-1970's it would be a perfect building to model. Nothing like conjuring up memories in the minds of those who visit your layout. Seeing an ice cream/deli store on a layout is one thing, but when a person sees something on a layout unexpectedly and it jogs your memory...that is a successful model! I checked the URL's. Through the links you can get to a Logos page and another to Photos of all of their stores (with addresses). Though not prototypical, I just may have to put one in Cresson! (My farthest point west.) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 15:19:13 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] The Broadway Limited --part1_e6.2f5c7fd8.2acf43b1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The 1955 schedule for Train 29: lv. Hudson Terminal 5:48 PM Jersey City 5:51 PM Penna. Sta. 6:00 PM * lv Newark 6:14 PM * North Phila. Sta. 7:21 PM * Paoli 7:50 PM * Harrisburg 9:01 PM * Altoona 11:13 PM * Pittsburgh 1:53 AM Crestline 5:20 AM d Fort Wayne 6:24 AM d Englewood 8:30 AM d Union Sta. Chi. 8:45 AM t = Boarding only of passengers for Pittsburgh and west d = discharge of passengers only Rich Orr --part1_e6.2f5c7fd8.2acf43b1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The 1955 schedule for Train 29:

lv.   Hudson Terminal        5:48 PM
Jersey City                        5:51 PM
Penna. Sta.                       6:00 PM *
lv Newark                          6:14 PM *
North Phila. Sta.                7:21 PM *
Paoli                                  7:50 PM *
Harrisburg                          9:01 PM *
Altoona                               11:13 PM *
Pittsburgh                           1:53 AM
Crestline                             5:20 AM  d
Fort Wayne                        6:24 AM  d
Englewood                         8:30 AM  d
Union Sta. Chi.                  8:45 AM

t = Boarding only of passengers for Pittsburgh and west
d = discharge of passengers only

Rich Orr --part1_e6.2f5c7fd8.2acf43b1_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 16:17:33 -0700 From: timpaniman Subject: [PRR] PRR Tunnels List; There is a PRR tunnel at East Altoona Pa. where the east bound passenger tracks pass under a hump yard. Doug Jones ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Laird" Subject: Re: [PRR] The Broadway Limited Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 15:02:35 -0500 A Samosite wrote, in part: > > 7:37 am in Hammond, 9:20 am in Chicago?? Are you SURE that's not > supposed to be 8:20 am? > If these times are correct, that is an unacceptably long time to get > from Hammond to Union Station, terminal congestion or not. > Looks like Amtrak is doing the same trick with the Broadway Ltd. that they do in Texas with the Chicago to San Antonio train. They make the timetable time between the last stop (San Marcos) and the destination (San Antonio) well over an hour longer that what a "reasonable" time would be. That is their cushion so that they have an extra hour before the train is officially late. If it pulls in anytime before the timetable time it is touted as arriving early. They can only pull that trick on the destination because it is an arrival only time. All other published times on the timetable are departure times and if they arrived early they could not leave until the published times. What is the old saying, "figures don't lie, liars figure". Bill Laird Canyon Lake, TX ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 15:48:46 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: Trackside/roadside culture: Isaly's (somewhat off-topic) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" Dan Thanks for the web site. Jerry, you are right. An Isaly's store would evoke a lot of nostalgia amongst those of us who remember the stores. Ours in Coraopolis was part of a block of stores on Mill Street, but the shiny white front as shown on the web page was there. And unfortunately I'm FROM western Pennsylvania, not IN western Pennsylvania. It is 93 degrees down here. In OCTOBER! Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: Dan Cupper >To: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" >Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: Trackside/roadside culture: Isaly's (somewhat off-topic) >Date: Fri, 04 Oct, 2002, 13:37 > > p ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 13:59:08 -0700 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] The Broadway Limited Hi Bill, All, Ah, now I get it. Last year when I took the Sunset from Texas to L.A. on my way home I wondered why the timetable showed 3 hours for the last segment when east bound it gave the same distance 1 hour! Respectfully, Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 19:13:28 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Cincinnati Union Terminal In a message dated 9/25/02 9:38:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Patrick.Rose@ae.ge.com writes: > Marvin, > Interesting you should mention the clocks. The original clock system > is something of a pet project of mine. The system is an IBM (yep, the same > one) momentary impulse system, very similar to school systems many of us > knew as kids. The facinating part is that IBM managed to drive several > different clock displays, from regular dial clocks to the 'light-bulb > digital' in the information booth to the one on the face of the rotunda, > all from a single master clock. There were even mixed cycles; some clocks > were on 30 second intervals, some on 60 second (depending on dial diameter > and other factors). There was even a correction circuit to 'catch-up' any > clocks that fell behind. > To date, we have 5 (soon to be 7) original clocks running with their > original motors being driven by a new master clock from American Time & > Signal Co. This was necessary as the original master clock was stolen > shortly after the CUT closed in 1972. It has never surfaced in any estate > auction that I'm aware of, so it's likely still in whoever's basement in > went to then. It's a shame, as it's a georgeous and dramatic piece of > clock-work. If you have the hardback book recently published on the > Terimnal by the CRRC, there's a photo of it in there, pg 112. > If you're at at the next Summerail, maybe we'll run into each other and > can talk further. > Thanks, > Patrick Rose > CRRC > For those who were asking, the CUT book from Cincinnati Railroad Club is available via their website at http://www.cincinnatirrclub.org/. I understand the first printing is almost sold out at this point. They also have a new mortgage map color reproduction showing various lines of the PRR and how they were mortgaged -- that's too new to be on the website, but is priced at 9.95 like the previous roads they've done in this series. An interesting view of railroad debt. Zee you in Zinzinnati! Rick Tipton [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/MVfIAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 19:13:28 EDT Subject: [PRR] Cincinnati Union Terminal --part1_fe.1ef939bf.2acf7a98_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/25/02 9:38:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Patrick.Rose@ae.ge.com writes: > Marvin, > Interesting you should mention the clocks. The original clock system > is something of a pet project of mine. The system is an IBM (yep, the same > one) momentary impulse system, very similar to school systems many of us > knew as kids. The facinating part is that IBM managed to drive several > different clock displays, from regular dial clocks to the 'light-bulb > digital' in the information booth to the one on the face of the rotunda, > all from a single master clock. There were even mixed cycles; some clocks > were on 30 second intervals, some on 60 second (depending on dial diameter > and other factors). There was even a correction circuit to 'catch-up' any > clocks that fell behind. > To date, we have 5 (soon to be 7) original clocks running with their > original motors being driven by a new master clock from American Time & > Signal Co. This was necessary as the original master clock was stolen > shortly after the CUT closed in 1972. It has never surfaced in any estate > auction that I'm aware of, so it's likely still in whoever's basement in > went to then. It's a shame, as it's a georgeous and dramatic piece of > clock-work. If you have the hardback book recently published on the > Terimnal by the CRRC, there's a photo of it in there, pg 112. > If you're at at the next Summerail, maybe we'll run into each other and > can talk further. > Thanks, > Patrick Rose > CRRC > For those who were asking, the CUT book from Cincinnati Railroad Club is available via their website at http://www.cincinnatirrclub.org/. I understand the first printing is almost sold out at this point. They also have a new mortgage map color reproduction showing various lines of the PRR and how they were mortgaged -- that's too new to be on the website, but is priced at 9.95 like the previous roads they've done in this series. An interesting view of railroad debt. Zee you in Zinzinnati! Rick Tipton --part1_fe.1ef939bf.2acf7a98_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/25/02 9:38:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Patrick.Rose@ae.ge.com writes:


Marvin,
    Interesting you should mention the clocks.  The original clock system is something of a pet project of mine.  The system is an IBM (yep, the same one) momentary impulse system, very similar to school systems many of us knew as kids.  The facinating part is that IBM managed to drive several different clock displays, from regular dial clocks to the 'light-bulb digital' in the information booth to the one on the face of the rotunda, all from a single master clock.  There were even mixed cycles; some clocks were on 30 second intervals, some on 60 second (depending on dial diameter and other factors).  There was even a correction circuit to 'catch-up' any clocks that fell behind.
    To date, we have 5 (soon to be 7) original clocks running with their original motors being driven by a new master clock from American Time & Signal Co.  This was necessary as the original master clock was stolen shortly after the CUT closed in 1972.  It has never surfaced in any estate auction that I'm aware of, so it's likely still in whoever's basement in went to then.  It's a shame, as it's a georgeous and dramatic piece of clock-work.  If you have the hardback book recently published on the Terimnal by the CRRC, there's a photo of it in there, pg 112.
    If you're at at the next Summerail, maybe we'll run into each other and can talk further.
Thanks,
Patrick Rose
CRRC


For those who were asking, the CUT book from Cincinnati Railroad Club is available via their website at http://www.cincinnatirrclub.org/.  I understand the first printing is almost sold out at this point.  They also have a new mortgage map color reproduction showing various lines of the PRR and how they were mortgaged -- that's too new to be on the website, but is priced at 9.95 like the previous roads they've done in this series.  An interesting view of railroad debt.

Zee you in Zinzinnati!
  
Rick Tipton
 --part1_fe.1ef939bf.2acf7a98_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 19:37:07 EDT Subject: [PRR] Levine's PRR E8's --part1_1bb.7236ec4.2acf8023_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anybody know the PRR E8 schedule for this weekend into and out of Harrisburg? I'm looking for Saturday morning and Sunday night. If it was already listed, please list again. Bob Martin --part1_1bb.7236ec4.2acf8023_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anybody know the PRR E8 schedule for this weekend into and out of Harrisburg?  I'm looking for Saturday morning and Sunday night.  If it was already listed, please list again.

Bob Martin --part1_1bb.7236ec4.2acf8023_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWSNRHS@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 19:46:33 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Tunnels --part1_14b.153c1ecc.2acf8259_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/04/2002 4:25:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, timpaniman@comcast.net writes: > List; > There is a PRR tunnel at East Altoona Pa. where the east bound passenger > tracks pass under a hump yard. > Doug Jones > > The East Altoona Tunnel was daylighted a couple of years ago at the end of the Conrail era. Dave Seidel, Altoona --part1_14b.153c1ecc.2acf8259_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/04/2002 4:25:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, timpaniman@comcast.net writes:


List;
There is a PRR tunnel at East Altoona Pa. where the east bound passenger
tracks pass under a hump yard.
Doug Jones


The East Altoona Tunnel was daylighted a couple of years ago at the end of the Conrail era.

Dave Seidel, Altoona
 --part1_14b.153c1ecc.2acf8259_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 20:00:25 -0400 From: dwsnrhs@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Tunnels In a message dated Fri, 4 Oct 2002 8:40:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > --- ndbprr@att.net wrote: > > Do we consider the Pennsylvania Turnpike tunnels as PRR? > > I would think not. > > They were constructed (so far as they were constructed) by the South > Pennsylvania RR, which at the time was backed by NYC interests and > intended as a rival to the PRR. In the settlement between NYC and > PRR, PRR was to acquire the South Penn and the Beech Creek, but the > provision in the PA constitution barring mergers between parallel > railroads caused a court to enjoin PRR from acquiring either. > > On the other hand, when the turnpike was begun, the commission did > pay PRR and B and O a megabuck each for whatever rights each may have > owned in the South Penn property; so someone, somewhere may > have I agree. The Turnpike tunnels are (were) NOT PRR. The turnpike tunnels (South Penn RR) was intended to be a competing rr to the PRR). However, for an interesting look at this history, take a look at www.southpennrailroad.com. All the details are there and the companion reference is, of course, Dan Cuppers history of the Pennsylvania Turnpike. Dave Seidel Altoona, PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 21:05:40 -0400 From: John W Rosenbauer Subject: [PRR] Saturdays Pittsburgh trip from Railfest. Guys, Work precludes me from attending on Sat so I'm wondering if anyone knows when the E-8s will leave for Pittsburgh. I may be able to tape them near Greensburg. Thanks, John W Rosenbauer --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Citizens Internet Services with Declude Virus v 1.61] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 21:23:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Long Bridge, was [PRR] tunnels From: "M. E Allen" Nothing in the District of Columbia is owned in fee simple (not that railroad property is terribly often). The Long Bridge was actually owned by the War Department and during the Penn Central Real Estate Fire Sale of the seventies ("Anything you want as long as its for cash on a quit claim deed) it was transferred to the Department of Transportation. MEA . On Thu, 3 Oct 2002 10:57:53 -0400 "Gregg Mahlkov" writes: > Andy, > > That's the Virginia Avenue Tunnel I was referring to. It was a PRR > tunnel > leading to the Long Bridge over the Potomac, which was owned by > PRR. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andrew S. Miller" > To: > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:26 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels > > > > There is the tunnel under the US Capitol Plaza from Union Station > to > L'Enfant > > Plaza area. It is used by all passenger trains from the PRR going > south > of > > DC. Was that PRR or Washington Union Terminal Co? > > > > Regards, > > > > Andy Miller > > asmiller@mitre.org > > > > ================================================== > > Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > > > > > In a message dated 10/3/02 7:58:27 AM Central Daylight Time, > ndbprr@att.net > > > writes: > > > > > > << are there any others? >> > > > > > > I don't know if it is long enough to qualify as a tunnel, but > isn't the > > > produce or team track yard in Washington reached by an > underground (or > > > underbuilding) arrangement of some sort? > > > > > > Bob Zoeller > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For assistance with this list, please visit > http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit > http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FredAbend@aol.com Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 08:14:11 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] tunnels List: Continuing with the tunnel thread here are a few more details on the tunnel just north of Columbia: Until recently I had never heard a name for this tunnel. However, in an 1866 act incorporating Columbia Borough the Pennsylvania General Assembly defined the Borough's borders. In the definition section the Act refers to "Point Rock Tunnel." If you're familiar with the area now that seems like a strange name. However in the 1800s this was a very logical name. Originally the canal followed the base of the hills between Marietta and Columbia. Point Rock stuck out in the Susquehanna and the canal simply swung out around it. When workers built the railroad between the canal and the hills there was enough room to do so except at Point Rock. There they chose to drill a tunnel rather than cut through the hill. When the PRR built the Low Grade it took a straight line between the base of Chiques Hill (near Marietta) and Point Rock. This formed Kerbaugh Lake, named after one of the contractors, to the east of the low grade. What became the Columbia Branch continued to go through Point Rock Tunnel and followed the railroad's original alignment. After WW2 the PRR filled in Kerbaugh Lake and ultimately tied in the Columbia Branch to the Low Grade at the Columbia Yard. The railroad then pulled the tracks out from the base of the hills and the tunnel. All of this construction and filling obliterated the part of the river that gave Point Rock its name. Point Rock Tunnel is to become part of a proposed Northwest Trail running from Columbia to Falmouth. Following Bruce Smith's URL posting here is Point Rock Tunnel on Terraserver: http://terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com/image.aspx?t=1&s=10&x=1852&y=22166&z=18 &w=1 If you scroll NW you'll see filled-in Kerbaugh Lake and the original railroad's alignment, which is now a service road. Scroll SE and you'll see Columbia Yard. Fred ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rick Siller" Subject: [PRR] Re: F&C H30A and Branchline X43B Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 15:53:44 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C26C87.628A22C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Per Andy Hart,=20 > >Photos of roofs of both the H30 and H30a covered hoppers appear on page = 7 of the Autumn 1987 (Vol. 20, No. 3) issue of the Keystone. Andy,=20 Thanks for the info on the roof shot for the H30 and H30A. Now I can = finish the top of my F&C hopper from a photo reference. =20 Also, on page 6 there is a good photo of an X43B in the CK scheme. I = always wondered about the dash in the X43-B on the Branchline models. I = have seen very few car sub-classes that are preceeded by a dash. Was = this unique to particular classes or car builders? Rick ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C26C87.628A22C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>Per Andy Hart,=20
>
>Photos of roofs of = both the H30=20 and H30a covered hoppers appear on page 7 of the Autumn 1987 (Vol. 20, = No. 3)=20 issue of the Keystone.
Andy, =
Thanks for = the info on the=20 roof shot for the H30 and H30A.  Now I can finish the top of my = F&C=20 hopper from a photo reference. 
 
Also, on page 6 there is a good photo = of an X43B in=20 the CK scheme.  I always wondered about the dash in the X43-B on = the=20 Branchline models.  I have seen very few car sub-classes that = are=20 preceeded by a dash.  Was this unique to particular classes or car=20 builders?
 
Rick
 

 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C26C87.628A22C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "mark taylor" Subject: [PRR] F-7 NOSE GRAB IRONS Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 15:51:37 -0400 Hello list , I am in the process of detailing my Athearn F-7's. My question pertains to the grab irons above the number boards. They seem to have a very distinctive shape, are there any grab irons commercially available? If not, how can I make something reasonably close. Any response would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Cooper" Subject: [PRR] Gray's Ferry tunnel Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 15:31:49 -0700 The discussion of tunnels and specifically the mention of the gray's ferry branch reminded me of some study I did a while ago. In the days of the West Philadelphia station, before 30th st, the original alignment of the arsenal-broad tracks was very close to it's current alignment. The radius of the curve was slightly tighter so that the tracks went under roughtly where track 1 is now and headed for roughly the center of present-day 30th st station building. The tracks were actually subgrade with retaining walls on either side. The west philadelphia station platforms were right on the curve and there was also a short tunnel right where the tracks went under the high line. As best as I can tell from photos, it appears this old subgrade alignment was covered with steel beams supported by the retaining walls to support the present day tracks 1 & 2. I can't imagine the short tunnel was daylighted, because they wouldn't have had time when they cutover operations from W Phila to 30th st. This leads to my speculation that it might still be hollow, or at least structurally so, under tracks 1 and 2 near the western limits of Broad. I scanned some photos at http://johncoop.home.netcom.com/tmp/foo.htm to illustrate what I'm talking about. I don't know if anyone else finds such speculation interesting, but I enjoyed studying and trying to correlate the "before" and "after" photos. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hanel29@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg red caboose lodge Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 01:35:01 +0000 JON - I would suggest that you have to search far and wide in this nation of ours to find a government that qualifies less as an ultra liberal one as Lancaster County, PA. Incompetence in commercial management is hardly a new or rare commodity. - HANK ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] F-7 NOSE GRAB IRONS Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 21:59:19 -0500 Hi Mark--You can use Detail Associates 229-2215, Ladder Grabs. These were installed to position a ladder against in order to gain access to the windshield, etc. for servicing. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----- Original Message ----- From: "mark taylor" To: Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 2:51 PM Subject: [PRR] F-7 NOSE GRAB IRONS > Hello list , I am in the process of detailing my Athearn F-7's. My question > pertains to the grab irons above the number boards. They seem to have a very > distinctive shape, are there any grab irons commercially available? If not, > how can I make something reasonably close. Any response would be greatly > appreciated. Thanks Mark > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 19:35:26 -0400 From: "Michael A. Hmel" Subject: [PRR] E's in the " burgh " Hi List , Just wanted to let everyone know that the Excursion train made it Pittsburgh and is sitting on track four at the Amtrak station Downtown . Track four runs along the East Busway to the far right of the Station . I missed the train in Swissville , because they came through the South Side of Pittsburgh instead of down the main . Those engines look incredible , they appear to be in the best shape they have been in since they were delivered . If your in the Pittsburgh area stop down and see them , it will bring back the fondest of memories ...... Tuscan red forever Mike Hmel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Gray's Ferry tunnel Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 10:24:32 -0400 John- I don't know if it is called the Grays Ferry Tunnel. Grays Ferry is farther South from this area. As trains headed Northbound from Washington DC, they went through Arsenal interlock and either went into the present day 30th station tracks(diverge right), up onto the high line(tracks straight), or diverged left and traveled under 32nd street for 3 blocks. This area is Drexel University Campus. Septa uses the line now. This may be the tunnel you are referring to. While in the tunnel, the tracks curve right and exit the tunnel just under tracks 1 and 2 that come from the west. You are correct about the re-alignment. Keep in mind, 30th street co-existed with Broad street station until 30th streets upper and lower platforms were complete operationally. 30th street was completed in the1930's. Broad Street was there until 1952. Razed in 1953. Also in this area, the trains cut off to the left and bypassed Broad and went onto NY and points west. The stone depressed cut that carried the trains through the yard still exists. It eventually comes to grade farther west near Zoo Interlock. All of above is documented in 2 special edition issues published by the Philadelphia Chpt of the PRRTHS. They are: The Philadelphia Improvements Part I:The Idea and Projects East of the Schuylkill River - May 1979, reprint Sept 1987, Third print Dec 1990. The Philadelphia Improvements Part II: 30th Street Station - Sept 1980, reprint Feb 1988, third print Dec 1990 Also, Harry Albrecht's Broad Street Station (soft cover 6" x 9") has great area shots of Broad St. and 30th Street Stations. Anyone interested in Philadelphia and the PRR, the above publications are a must. The area is incredible to visit. PS. If you ever travel down JKF boulevard from city hall to 30th street, you are riding in the area of the old approach into Broad Street Station knows as the Chinese Wall. There is still a piece of the wall standing on the east side of the Schuylkill River, with a catenary support pole in the edge, cut off about 16 inches from the walls cornice. Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of John Cooper Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 6:32 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Gray's Ferry tunnel The discussion of tunnels and specifically the mention of the gray's ferry branch reminded me of some study I did a while ago. In the days of the West Philadelphia station, before 30th st, the original alignment of the arsenal-broad tracks was very close to it's current alignment. The radius of the curve was slightly tighter so that the tracks went under roughtly where track 1 is now and headed for roughly the center of present-day 30th st station building. The tracks were actually subgrade with retaining walls on either side. The west philadelphia station platforms were right on the curve and there was also a short tunnel right where the tracks went under the high line. As best as I can tell from photos, it appears this old subgrade alignment was covered with steel beams supported by the retaining walls to support the present day tracks 1 & 2. I can't imagine the short tunnel was daylighted, because they wouldn't have had time when they cutover operations from W Phila to 30th st. This leads to my speculation that it might still be hollow, or at least structurally so, under tracks 1 and 2 near the western limits of Broad. I scanned some photos at http://johncoop.home.netcom.com/tmp/foo.htm to illustrate what I'm talking about. I don't know if anyone else finds such speculation interesting, but I enjoyed studying and trying to correlate the "before" and "after" photos. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 11:20:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Painting of freight cars - last gap filled Gary, Elden and all, We move quick to accept the notion that the PRR received all of it's "NEW" cars with unpainted roofs. We have evidence that the roofs of the X29D in Volume 2 of the color guide had a galvanize roof but this photo is certainly a dated photo and to presume it is "NEW" is out to the question. What I had told Branchline before they released the car with a black roof was to show me evidence of car right off the original production line, prior to the X56 program and excluding the General American Leased pool cars, that has been painted with asphaltum and not overcoated with PRR Freight car color. All I got was "Ed Hawkins has this spec, that says..." NO PHOTO to fit the bill. I did get a reference photo clip of an X43 that appears to have been repainted into the Shadow Keystone and there is evidence that the roof may have been raw asphaltum, and I have a copy of the same photo I bought from Richard Burg but it is Black and White and the flat area that can be seen on the roof might be asphaltum, but nonetheless it is a repainted car. Can I explain the photo? No, but it is clearly not a General American car that Branchline continues to offer as an explanation for the spec. Here is how I see it ... with the exception of the leased Green General American 50-foot single door boxcars (that were delivered with a black asphaltum roof) I have found no evidence of an original production run of PRR box cars with unfinished galvanized or raw asphaltum roof, until the X56, which I have photo evidence that were delivered with an asphaltum roof that shows evidence of overspray rather than completely painted. MY Challenge to someone ... anyone... Show me a builders photo of a PRR boxcar that shows the roof that is either unfinished galvanized or raw asphaltum "as Delivered" prior to the X56 or the General American leased pool car and I will take this all back. SHOW ME DON'T TELL ME. OTHERWISE, Gary and Elden and whomever, paint your roof Freight Car Color and forget the black roof! If you want to show that the asphaltum is/was weathering through the paint I will give you some pointers offline. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 11:12:00 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk -tunnels- South Penn -etc. From: Beth Caples Schuylkill Division has another tunnel and it is just south of Port Cinton. It can be viewed from the eastern side of the Rte. 61 bridge. just a stones throw from the Reading tracks( Reading and northern). This tunnel has been abandoned since about the time of the formation of Con Rail. As for the South Penn. There were a lot of smaller railroads that were supporting this venture. Some recovered financially and some did not. The Reading RR was also a big backer as well. The East Broad Top RR graded some right of way that would have extended its tracks south from Neelyton to the East Penn. (could you imagine the EBT as a bridge line. would it still be a working railroad today?). There were many other smaller railroads that never fully recovered from this fiasco! Sorry that I am so late in responding to this thread but I have been very busy with my local fire dept. which seems to consume more and more of my time. John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 15:22:57 -0300 From: A Samostie Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited in Ohio / Indiana Rich Orr kindly posted the 1955 schedule for Train 29: lv. Hudson Terminal 5:48 PM Jersey City 5:51 PM Penna. Sta. 6:00 PM * lv Newark 6:14 PM * North Phila. Sta. 7:21 PM * Paoli 7:50 PM * Harrisburg 9:01 PM * Altoona 11:13 PM * Pittsburgh 1:53 AM Crestline 5:20 AM d Fort Wayne 6:24 AM d Englewood 8:30 AM d Union Sta. Chi. 8:45 AM t = Boarding only of passengers for Pittsburgh and west d = discharge of passengers only I'm not very familiar with the PRR route across Ohio and Indiana. I know the Broadway was, in both name and fact, a "Limited," so it probably didn't grind to a halt in every little town in the middle of the night. But, surely there must have been at least a few other stops west of Pittsburgh? Or, if the Broadway did not make other stops, what other PRR trains did? (I'm talking through trains here, not every local milk run). Cheers, Alan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited in Ohio / Indiana Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 15:37:03 -0400 Alan, Given the hours involved (it was the middle of the night), the "Broadway"'s principal reason for stopping at all at Crestline was a crew change. PRR operated four NY-Chicago trains in the 1950's and 1960's, the Broadway Limited, the General, the Pennsylvania Limited, and the Metropolitan Limited. It was the latter two that made the other stops and took almost 24 hours to make the trip. Most pass riders were limited to the latter two as well. Rode Amtrak's version of the Broadway between Ft. Wayne and Chicago a number of times in 1979 and don't recall it making ANY stops between the two cities.. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "A Samostie" To: Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 2:22 PM Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited in Ohio / Indiana > > Rich Orr kindly posted the 1955 schedule for Train 29: > > lv. Hudson Terminal 5:48 PM > Jersey City 5:51 PM > Penna. Sta. 6:00 PM * > lv Newark 6:14 PM * > North Phila. Sta. 7:21 PM * > Paoli 7:50 PM * > Harrisburg 9:01 PM * > Altoona 11:13 PM * > Pittsburgh 1:53 AM > Crestline 5:20 AM d > Fort Wayne 6:24 AM d > Englewood 8:30 AM d > Union Sta. Chi. 8:45 AM > > t = Boarding only of passengers for Pittsburgh and west > d = discharge of passengers only > > I'm not very familiar with the PRR route across Ohio and Indiana. I > know the Broadway was, in both name and fact, a "Limited," so it > probably didn't grind to a halt in every little town in the middle of > the night. But, surely there must have been at least a few other stops > west of Pittsburgh? Or, if the Broadway did not make other stops, what > other PRR trains did? (I'm talking through trains here, not every local > milk run). > > Cheers, > Alan > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 16:01:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited in Ohio / Indiana In a message dated 10/6/02 2:36:03 PM, mahlkov@gtcom.net writes: << Given the hours involved (it was the middle of the night), the "Broadway"'s principal reason for stopping at all at Crestline was a crew change. PRR operated four NY-Chicago trains in the 1950's and 1960's, the Broadway Limited, the General, the Pennsylvania Limited, and the Metropolitan Limited. It was the latter two that made the other stops and took almost 24 hours to make the trip. Most pass riders were limited to the latter two as well. >> My pocket pass (which is around here somewhere) was, as I recall, printed as "good on all trains on the system except #48 and #49." I remember #48 as being the westbound Broadway Limited. I thought the eastbound was "The Congressional" and that was #49. No? Then my pass had several endosrsement stamped with a rubber stamp. IIRC, "Not valid for daily commutation" and "Valid on all engines and cabin cars on the [....] Division." BTW, after I left the Pennsy, I went to work for American Airlines. The convention of numbering airline flights used to track the railroad convention; westbound flights have even numbers and eastbound flights have odd numbers. As the number of flights has increased, I believe that flight numbers now only differentiate among flights and very seldom carry directional meaning. But, I believe the PanAm round the world westbound flight was #2 and the PanAm eastbound RTW was #1. What was the name of the premier eastbound PRR train that was #49 and the turn around of the Broadway? Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Phil & Jen" Subject: [PRR] Cincinnati to Philadelphia Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 16:46:17 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C26D57.E3E4CC00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, Does anyone know which type of locomotives or the name of the trains = which ran from Cincinnati to Philadelphia in the early to mid 50's. Pete ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C26D57.E3E4CC00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello,
 
Does anyone know which type of  = locomotives or=20 the name of the trains which ran from Cincinnati to Philadelphia in the = early to=20 mid 50's.
 
Pete
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C26D57.E3E4CC00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited in Ohio / Indiana Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 17:24:25 -0400 Marty, The "Broadway Limited" ran in both directions and was trains no 28 and 29. The "General" was trains no 48 and 49. Your pass must be from the very end of PRR service, when the "Broadway" lost its all Pullman status and ran on the "General's" schedule. My Penn Central pass says "Not Valid on Trans 49, 49 or Metroliners". The "Congressionals" were New York-Washington trains. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 4:01 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited in Ohio / Indiana > > In a message dated 10/6/02 2:36:03 PM, mahlkov@gtcom.net writes: > > << Given the hours involved (it was the middle of the night), the > "Broadway"'s > > principal reason for stopping at all at Crestline was a crew change. PRR > > operated four NY-Chicago trains in the 1950's and 1960's, the Broadway > > Limited, the General, the Pennsylvania Limited, and the Metropolitan > > Limited. It was the latter two that made the other stops and took almost 24 > > hours to make the trip. Most pass riders were limited to the latter two as > > well. >> > > My pocket pass (which is around here somewhere) was, as I recall, printed as > "good on all trains on the system except #48 and #49." I remember #48 as > being the westbound Broadway Limited. I thought the eastbound was "The > Congressional" and that was #49. No? > > Then my pass had several endosrsement stamped with a rubber stamp. IIRC, "Not > valid for daily commutation" and "Valid on all engines and cabin cars on the > [....] Division." > > BTW, after I left the Pennsy, I went to work for American Airlines. The > convention of numbering airline flights used to track the railroad > convention; westbound flights have even numbers and eastbound flights have > odd numbers. As the number of flights has increased, I believe that flight > numbers now only differentiate among flights and very seldom carry > directional meaning. But, I believe the PanAm round the world westbound > flight was #2 and the PanAm eastbound RTW was #1. > > What was the name of the premier eastbound PRR train that was #49 and the > turn around of the Broadway? > > Regards, Marty > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 21:22:39 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Any RailFest Reports From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" Who attended RailFest? Any reports? Any photos? I missed it for the first time in many years. How was "the Curve"? Have they made a worthwhile difference in cutting down the trees yet? Until the view at the Curve is improved, my favorite spot in that area remains at Cresson. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 22:18:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited in Ohio / Indiana --part1_14a.155f1247.2ad248f3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Hudson Terminal and Jersey City times shown were for connecting trains that forwarded Broadway passengers to Newark for the transfer. --part1_14a.155f1247.2ad248f3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Hudson Terminal and Jersey City times shown were for connecting trains that forwarded Broadway passengers to Newark for the transfer. --part1_14a.155f1247.2ad248f3_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 22:25:44 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited in Ohio / Indiana --part1_177.fde6cb6.2ad24aa8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Broadway Limited was numbered 29 westbound, 28 eastbound until it was combined with the General. The General was 49 westbound, 48 eastbound. When the two trains were combined the numbers used were those of the General. Shortly thereafter, the General named was dropped and 48 & 49 were known simply as the Broadway Limited. The Congressionals (ca. 1950) were numbered 131 (Morning Congressional) and 153 (Afternoon Congressional) southbound between New york and Washington, 124 (Morning ...) and 152 (Afternoon ...) for the return trips. --part1_177.fde6cb6.2ad24aa8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Broadway Limited was numbered 29 westbound, 28 eastbound until it was combined with the General.  The General was 49 westbound, 48 eastbound.  When the two trains were combined the numbers used were those of the General.  Shortly thereafter, the General named was dropped and 48 & 49 were known simply as the Broadway Limited.

The Congressionals (ca. 1950) were numbered 131 (Morning Congressional) and 153 (Afternoon Congressional) southbound between New york and Washington, 124 (Morning ...) and 152 (Afternoon ...) for the return trips. --part1_177.fde6cb6.2ad24aa8_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 22:31:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Any RailFest Reports Jerry & List......... Just got back from Altoona. Yes ,the tree cutting project has started. Most of the trees around the park are gone. Some trees have been cut cut along the inside of the Curve. You can now see the signal bridge from the park. It's a good start but they still have a long way to go. But at least you can see the trains inside the Horseshoe. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 23:22:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Railfest/Pittsburgh Excursion-Overnite Trip. Jerry & List....... Saturday afternoon, I took the Altoona to Pittsburgh Overnite Excursion pulled by the restored PRR E8s. I rode the Pullman Solarium car "Kitchi-Gami" which was on the tail end of the train. What a ride!!! Once past Cresson Pa, the E units were off to the races. 65mph on the Pittsburgh Division, riding a heavyweight Pullman car is a great to spend the weekend We came off the PRR main at Pitcarin Yard to do some "rare mileage" and followed the freight route (Port Perry Branch) across the Monongahelia River. Then west towards the O.C. Bridge to cross the Ohio River, then headed east on the mainline via Island Ave/Federal St. Then we crossed the Fort Wayne Bridge to enter the station in Pittsburgh. The next morning we followed the PRR main back to Altoona via East Liberty and Swissvale. What a Ride! Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 12:39:13 -0400 From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Gray's Ferry tunnel Interesting theory. I know that on rides out of the upper level onto the Media or Wilmington lines it is possible to look out of the rear vestibule windows and still see the tunnel that was used by NY - WAS trains in the West Phila Station days. The line coming from Zoo descends in a double track cut and passes through a short tunnel connecting to the curving line coming southbound out of 30th Street's upper level. There is still a single track and the switch is still in place where the 2 routes converge in the tunnel. There was (at least until recently) still catenary over the one remaining track as well. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Gray's Ferry tunnel Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 13:42:37 -0400 Evan though the cut is littered with trash, debris, and overgrowth of tree like weeds, you can still see it very clear from the western side of the yard(houses along Drexel University's east side campus. Spring Garden Street bridge has a metal wall blocking the view. With a larger type step stool, you can look over the blocking structure and view Penn Coach Yard. Just above within almost reaching distance is the High Line. Yes, a switch from what I understand is still in the tunnel linking Zoo to Arsenal, only the cut has no track. This area is awesome to walk around. So much of PRR is still there. The high line alone is a feat in and among itself. Greg -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 12:39 PM To: johncoop@ix.netcom.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Gray's Ferry tunnel Interesting theory. I know that on rides out of the upper level onto the Media or Wilmington lines it is possible to look out of the rear vestibule windows and still see the tunnel that was used by NY - WAS trains in the West Phila Station days. The line coming from Zoo descends in a double track cut and passes through a short tunnel connecting to the curving line coming southbound out of 30th Street's upper level. There is still a single track and the switch is still in place where the 2 routes converge in the tunnel. There was (at least until recently) still catenary over the one remaining track as well. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Cooper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Gray's Ferry tunnel Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 20:11:50 -0700 Comments inserted. John -----Original Message----- From: Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr. To: John Cooper ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Sunday, October 06, 2002 7:24 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Gray's Ferry tunnel >John- > >I don't know if it is called the Grays Ferry Tunnel. Grays Ferry is farther >South from this area. As trains headed Northbound from Washington DC, they >went through Arsenal interlock and either went into the present day 30th >station tracks(diverge right), up onto the high line(tracks straight), or >diverged left and traveled under 32nd street for 3 blocks. This area is >Drexel University Campus. Septa uses the line now. This may be the tunnel >you are referring to. While in the tunnel, the tracks curve right and exit >the tunnel just under tracks 1 and 2 that come from the west. You are >correct about the re-alignment. Keep in mind, 30th street co-existed with >Broad street station until 30th streets upper and lower platforms were >complete operationally. 30th street was completed in the1930's. Broad >Street was there until 1952. Razed in 1953. All correct. Though the existing Septa tunnel under 32nd street is what I was referring to in the subject of the email (for lack of a better subject), I was actually talking about another tunnel that used to exist very near there. As a train came inbound to Broad from Arsenal, there was also a short tunnel exactly underneath the high line where tracks 1 and 2 are now. Between this tunnel and the 32nd st tunnel, was W Phila station platforms, flanked by retaining walls. > >Also in this area, the trains cut off to the left and bypassed Broad and >went onto NY and points west. The stone depressed cut that carried the >trains through the yard still exists. It eventually comes to grade farther >west near Zoo Interlock. > This was originally the NY-Washington mainline. Somewhere down in the 32nd st tunnel area there should have been platforms for W Phila Station. Does anyone know if evidence of these platforms still exists? More interesting would be to know if there is evidence of having patched the wall where the old alignment diverged. >All of above is documented in 2 special edition issues published by the >Philadelphia Chpt of the PRRTHS. They are: > >The Philadelphia Improvements Part I:The Idea and Projects East of the >Schuylkill River - May 1979, reprint Sept 1987, Third print Dec 1990. >The Philadelphia Improvements Part II: 30th Street Station - Sept 1980, >reprint Feb 1988, third print Dec 1990 > Also, Harry Albrecht's Broad Street Station (soft cover 6" x 9") has great >area shots of Broad St. and 30th Street Stations. > I have Part 2, which is my source of photos. Page 14 clearly shows the tunnel under the highline, and the tunnel for the new alignment. There are two huts between the new and old alignment which are still there. Existing cat poles can even be seen under construction. The girders supporting current track 1 and 2 can be seen in picture top of page 19. Other end of tunnel under high line can be seen in photo on page 11 with existing alignment for track 1 & 2 already visible I should probably get Part 1. >Anyone interested in Philadelphia and the PRR, the above publications are a >must. The area is incredible to visit. > >PS. If you ever travel down JKF boulevard from city hall to 30th street, >you are riding in the area of the old approach into Broad Street Station >knows as the Chinese Wall. There is still a piece of the wall standing on >the east side of the Schuylkill River, with a catenary support pole in the >edge, cut off about 16 inches from the walls cornice. > I'll have to look for this next time I'm east. John >-----Original Message----- >From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of John Cooper >Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 6:32 PM >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] Gray's Ferry tunnel > >The discussion of tunnels and specifically the mention of the gray's ferry >branch reminded me of some study I did a while ago. > >In the days of the West Philadelphia station, before 30th st, the original >alignment of the arsenal-broad tracks was very close to it's >current alignment. The radius of the curve was slightly tighter so that the >tracks went under roughly where track 1 is now and headed for roughly the >center of present-day 30th st station building. The tracks were actually >subgrade with retaining walls on either side. The west philadelphia station >platforms were right on the curve and there was also a short tunnel right >where the tracks went under the high line. > >As best as I can tell from photos, it appears this old subgrade alignment >was covered with steel beams supported by the retaining walls to support the >present day tracks 1 & 2. I can't imagine the short tunnel was daylighted, >because they wouldn't have had time >when they cutover operations from W Phila to 30th st. This leads >to my speculation that it might still be hollow, or at least structurally >so, under tracks 1 and 2 near the western limits of Broad. > >I scanned some photos at http://johncoop.home.netcom.com/tmp/foo.htm to >illustrate what I'm talking about. > >I don't know if anyone else finds such speculation interesting, but I >enjoyed studying and trying to correlate the "before" and "after" photos. > >John > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 06:20:42 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Any RailFest Reports From: Jerry Britton On 10/6/02 10:31 PM, "zootowerprr@webtv.net" wrote: > Just got back from Altoona. Yes ,the tree cutting project has > started. Most of the trees around the park are gone. Some trees have > been cut cut along the inside of the Curve. You can now see the signal > bridge from the park. That's an excellent start, anyway. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 06:22:26 -0400 From: Zak Subject: [PRR] Query on a paint job on an eBay item This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_+rVUla/Sn0INc5IxCw+fXg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi, List. I apologize for this question for two reasons: first that I know that we shouldn't talk talk about commercial things here, and second because I know that the PRR had no F7A units painted in passenger TR with striping. My question, should you want to view this at: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1775386837 - I really hope I typed that in correctly, as I'm not going to do it again - is about that flash of striping directly behind the numberboard. Did any PRR E, F, or FP unit ever have that little flash on it? I've seen it on a couple of items on eBay, but can find no reference to it while doing searches for PRR paint jobs. Thanks in advance, Zak --Boundary_(ID_+rVUla/Sn0INc5IxCw+fXg) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Hi, List.
 
I apologize for this question for two reasons:  first that I know that we shouldn't talk talk about commercial things here, and second because I know that the PRR had no F7A units painted in passenger TR with striping.
 
My question, should you want to view this at: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1775386837 - I really hope I typed that in correctly, as I'm not going to do it again - is about that flash of striping directly behind the numberboard.
 
Did any PRR E, F, or FP unit ever have that little flash on it?  I've seen it on a couple of items on eBay, but can find no reference to it while doing searches for PRR paint jobs.
 
Thanks in advance,
 
Zak
--Boundary_(ID_+rVUla/Sn0INc5IxCw+fXg)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 06:36:53 -0400 From: Zak Subject: [PRR] Paint Removal Query This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_5vfMITmqMwmgWdPqQIdEjg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi, List. Would "Easy-Lift-Off Paint and Decal Remover" (Micro-Mark item # 60875) be a good choice for removing paint/decals from an assortment of car bodies from a differnt manufacturers? Zak --Boundary_(ID_5vfMITmqMwmgWdPqQIdEjg) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Hi, List.
 
Would "Easy-Lift-Off Paint and Decal Remover" (Micro-Mark item # 60875) be a good choice for removing paint/decals from an assortment of car bodies from a differnt manufacturers?
 
Zak
--Boundary_(ID_5vfMITmqMwmgWdPqQIdEjg)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 08:01:05 -0400 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited in Ohio / Indiana Greg & folks, Always good to see discussion of Pennsy passenger operations. In addition to the Pennsy Chicago-NY trains that were mentioned, it might be pointed out that in the 1950's the Admiral ran in both directions, as did the Fort Pitt, and there was also the Gotham Limited. There was too, the Liberty Ltd, runing the same route as far east as Harrisburg, where it headed south on the Northern Central to Baltimore and Washington. The Golden Triangle was a separate train between Chicago and Pittsburgh in the 1950's. The service cuts in the late 50's saw the Gotham discontinued, and the Pennsylvania Ltd had it's time adjusted to run pretty close to the Gotham's time, as well as being combined with the Golden Triangle. Also dropped by 1960 had been #44, an un-named mail clunker running eastbound-only Chicago-Pittsburgh; the westbound Admiral and eastbound Fort Pitt, not to mention the Liberty Ltd. (The Liberty's demise was compensated for somewhat by having Washington cars added to the General). Thanks for the discussion, gents, and regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 08:10:03 -0500 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] PRR air piping Hi, everyone, I've been studying photos of PRR steam locomotives from the WW I period and they have raised a question. In later years, most PRR steam engines had the familiar multiple "layers" of piping asociated with the air pumps and air reservoirs. I've understood these to (in part) be needed to cool the air. Whatever the purpose, they are common features on PRR steam after c.1930, usually hanging under the running boards. BUT go back to the WW I period and there is virtually none of this layered piping. Not that I'm complaining - it certainly simplifies modeling. But why less piping? Was it something to do with the "K" brake systems in use around WW I? Did the later "AB" systems need more piping for some reason? George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 08:46:11 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Query on a paint job on an eBay item Zak asks: > Hi, List. I apologize for this question for two reasons: first >that I know that we shouldn't talk talk about commercial things here, and >second because I know that the PRR had no F7A units painted in passenger >TR with striping. My question, should you want to view this at: >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1775386837 - I really >hope I typed that in correctly, as I'm not going to do it again - is >about that flash of striping directly behind the numberboard. Did any >PRR E, F, or FP unit ever have that little flash on it? Rule #1, never trust a manufacturer's paint job. Always work from photos of the real thing. As for the thingy behind the numberboard...it looks like that loco creamed a yellow blooded martian at a grade crossing...sheesh! A much smaller version of the teardrop was applied to F units, for example these F3s http://www.prrths.com/Phila_Grant_Huntington04.html, this F7 (scroll down http://madisonrails.railfan.net/junction.html) as well as GG1s. I'm not sure about E units, as the only photos I found in a quick online search showed both 5 stripe and single stripe Tuscan units with the stripes through the numberboards and therefore no teardrop. >Would "Easy-Lift-Off Paint and Decal Remover" (Micro-Mark item # 60875) >be a good choice for removing paint/decals from an assortment of car >bodies from a differnt manufacturers? 2) Yes and no. A safer, slightly less toxic and generally more effective stripper is 91% isopropyl alcohol (Note that if less than 90%, it won't work!). ELO will damage some plastics very severely, most notably I believe some Kato loco shells. Of course, in the end, if you are doing lots of stripping, a grit blaster is your best friend. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 10:42:26 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] F-7 NOSE GRAB IRONS I think what you are referring to are called "ladder rests" . The distinctive shape is intended to place a ladder on, and keep it from sliding off. These are also common on the roofs of passenger cars. Detail Assoc's makes them in HO. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== mark taylor wrote: > Hello list , I am in the process of detailing my Athearn F-7's. My question > pertains to the grab irons above the number boards. They seem to have a very > distinctive shape, are there any grab irons commercially available? If not, > how can I make something reasonably close. Any response would be greatly > appreciated. Thanks Mark > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 08:43:03 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Partial bibliography of form CT1000 et al. Over the weekend, I ran into Pat McKinney who reminded me that it's been a while since I put out a revision of this list. Looked in my "sent messages" and yikes, it's been over a year. In large part. that's because no-one has sent in any new information. Thanks for information received to Jim Aldridge, Jeff Feldmeier, Bob Johnson, Pat McKinney, Paul Schopp, Tom Sellers, Garry Spear, Dave Wartell. So, here's the 10th revision again, and a hope that in the past year lots of folks have found CT1000's or their predecessors and have new data to add to the list. Editions were printed in: 1946 Supplement to 1945 edition, date not certain 1945 ------------+ 1923 | 1918 | 1915 | 1913 | 1911 Form C. T. 1000 ???? | (???? means "don't know") 1907 | 1906 | 1905 | 1904 | 1903 | 1902 | 1901 | 1900 ------------+ 1899 Form number not known (see comment below) 1898 Form C. T. 1000 1897 Form number not known ???? Form number not known 1895 ------------+ ???? | 1892 | 1891 Form C. R. 76 ???? | 1888 | 1887 ------------+ ???? Form number not known 1882 ------------+ ???? Form 76 C. R. 1879 ------------+ 1878 Form number not known 1877 Form 89 C. R. 1876 Form number not known ???? I'm being hyper-correct on those form numbers around 1898. Remember that the 1900 CT1000 says "...supercedes edition of 1899" without saying what the 1899 form number was. That appears to be the situation with the 1898/1897 books also. For myself, if the 1898 and 1900 books were Form CT1000, I can't imagine the 1899 book having any other form number. But note: The 1895 book is known to have been Form CR76, 1898 Form CT1000. So, 'tis possible that "the edition of 1897" was a Form CR76. It would be nice to know, wouldn't it? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Colman Gerald Subject: [PRR] Weathered Painted Wood Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 11:57:50 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C26E22.ABC96080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To list: Can anybody help me or give me advice on the following: I am building an Icing Platform from stained wood and would like to simulate weathered paint over the stained wood. I would like to get the effect of peeling in small and large spots on the face of the planks along with the edges. I tried painting then drying followed by rubbing areas with a Q-tip dipped in thiner. That gave me a worn look but not peeling. I then tried placing small dabs of Vaseline with a toothpick on random areas, then painting with acrylic. Once dried, I brushed the area with a toothbrush and that gave me a more peeled look. The trouble is I can only get relatively large-area peels. I would like to get very small peel dots. Can anyone shed some light? Thanks in advance, Jerry Colman ------_=_NextPart_001_01C26E22.ABC96080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Weathered Painted Wood

To list:

Can anybody help me or give me advice on the = following:

I am building an Icing Platform from stained wood and = would like to simulate weathered paint over the stained wood.  I = would like to get the effect of peeling in small and large spots on the = face of the planks along with the edges.  I tried painting then = drying followed by rubbing areas with a Q-tip dipped in thiner.  = That gave me a worn look but not peeling.  I then tried placing = small dabs of Vaseline with a toothpick on random areas, then painting = with acrylic.  Once dried, I brushed the area with a toothbrush = and that gave me a more peeled look.  The trouble is I can only = get relatively large-area peels.  I would like to get very small = peel dots.  Can anyone shed some light?

Thanks in advance,
Jerry Colman

------_=_NextPart_001_01C26E22.ABC96080-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 13:16:36 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Weathered Painted Wood You're a sick man Jerry. Stick to playing second base for the Yankees - they're all sick men ;-) On a more positive note, have you tried using an air brush at very low pressure so that it intentionally splatters the paint? Just a thought, I haven't tried it (my sickness is different than yours) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Colman Gerald wrote: > > > To list: > > Can anybody help me or give me advice on the following: > > I am building an Icing Platform from stained wood and would like to > simulate weathered paint over the stained wood. I would like to get > the effect of peeling in small and large spots on the face of the > planks along with the edges. I tried painting then drying followed by > rubbing areas with a Q-tip dipped in thiner. That gave me a worn look > but not peeling. I then tried placing small dabs of Vaseline with a > toothpick on random areas, then painting with acrylic. Once dried, I > brushed the area with a toothbrush and that gave me a more peeled > look. The trouble is I can only get relatively large-area peels. I > would like to get very small peel dots. Can anyone shed some light? > > Thanks in advance, > Jerry Colman -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Peeling paint Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 17:53:07 +0000 Here in the end of the line area (Chicago)I have seen some good results using rubber cement instead of vaseline. It can be put on with a toothpick in relatively small amounts and then peels off easily after the paint dries. i wouldn't want to be the one to do very much of it though but then I do things others wouldn't. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Weathered Painted Wood Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 11:01:19 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C26E2B.89CD2FD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Jerry, Andrew, Rubber cement applied with a toothpick can be removed afterward with an eraser or finger, leaving a nice peeled off area exactly where you want it. Paint the wood initially with a grey wash, then after rubber cementing with your faded "paint". It has worked well for me. Another method is to buy one of those pencil-tipped brass brushes. Micro Mark has one. You can scratch off the outer coat to your liking. Best, Elden ------_=_NextPart_001_01C26E2B.89CD2FD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Weathered Painted Wood

Jerry, Andrew, Rubber cement applied with a toothpick = can be removed afterward with an eraser or finger, leaving a nice = peeled off area exactly where you want it.  Paint the wood = initially with a grey wash, then after rubber cementing with your faded = "paint".  It has worked well for me.  Another = method is to buy one of those pencil-tipped brass brushes.  Micro = Mark has one.  You can scratch off the outer coat to your = liking.

Best,
Elden

------_=_NextPart_001_01C26E2B.89CD2FD0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 14:00:55 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Weathered Painted Wood In a message dated Mon, 7 Oct 2002 11:57:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, ColmanG@tce.com writes: > I would like to get the effect of peeling in small and > large spots on the face of the planks along with the edges. Jerry, Here is an old tip from a friend of mine that models the Santa Fe in Texas. Wet your wood lightly and add cream of wheat, (yep Cream of Wheat or Rice)Spray the wood with whatever color it is you wish to paint the finish. Allow it to dry and brush away the Cream of Wheat or Rice and you will have a sucessful paint peel. Sounds strange, works great. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 11:11:19 -0700 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] Peeling paint Hi Jerry, All, I have an oddball idea. Have not tried it. I don't own one yet but have read about "oil misters" that are used to mist olive oil, etc... onto salads or greens. Would likely find at gourmet shops? An alternative might be trying to spray some oil or oil/water mix at a low setting through your airbrush? I guess for that matter if you are using oil based paints you might even just try a fine spray plant mister using water. I am not sure if any of these possibilities would yield small enough areas for your purposes? Just some off the wall thoughts. If you try them let us know the results. Respectfully, Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 16:13:21 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Weathered Painted Wood Beein' as it's Texas, I assumed one would use grits . . . Jim McDaniel, in Delmarva (Virginia) where we eat-- and grow -- Irish potatoes for breakfast ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 20:59:19 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] Railfest/Pittsburgh Excursion-Overnite Trip. Excuse me! We hit 79 MPH, I saw it myself zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > > Jerry & List....... > > Saturday afternoon, I took the Altoona to Pittsburgh Overnite > Excursion pulled by the restored PRR E8s. I rode the Pullman Solarium > car "Kitchi-Gami" which was on the tail end of the train. What a ride!!! > Once past Cresson Pa, the E units were off to the races. > 65mph on the Pittsburgh Division, riding a heavyweight Pullman car is a > great to spend the weekend We > came off the PRR main at Pitcarin Yard to do some "rare mileage" and > followed the freight route (Port Perry Branch) across the Monongahelia > River. Then west towards the O.C. Bridge to cross the Ohio River, then > headed east on the mainline via Island Ave/Federal St. Then we crossed > the Fort Wayne Bridge to enter the station in Pittsburgh. > The next morning we followed the PRR main back to Altoona via > East Liberty and Swissvale. What a Ride! > > Dave > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 21:39:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Railfest/Pittsburgh Excursion-Overnite Trip. I stand corrected.......79mph! OK. Was the "What a Ride" part right? :-) Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Paint Removal Query Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 22:49:01 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C26E53.BB0FA1E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I use auto brake fluid. Let the model sit in it for a short while. Paint will come right off. Also, denatured alcohol will work. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Zak Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 6:37 AM To: prr-talk Subject: [PRR] Paint Removal Query Hi, List. Would "Easy-Lift-Off Paint and Decal Remover" (Micro-Mark item # 60875) be a good choice for removing paint/decals from an assortment of car bodies from a differnt manufacturers? Zak ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C26E53.BB0FA1E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I = use auto brake fluid. Let the model sit in it for a short while.  Paint will come right = off.  Also, denatured alcohol will = work.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf = Of Zak
Sent: Monday, October 07, = 2002 6:37 AM
To: prr-talk
Subject: [PRR] Paint = Removal Query

 

Hi, List.

 <= /p>

Would "Easy-Lift-Off Paint and Decal Remover" (Micro-Mark item # = 60875) be a good choice for removing paint/decals from an assortment of car bodies = from a differnt manufacturers?

 <= /p>

Zak<= /p>

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C26E53.BB0FA1E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 23:47:34 -0400 From: Bill Subject: [PRR] Dave Sweetland's new PRR Book Dave has asked me to pass along that he is selling his new PRR Color Pictorial Vol. III signed at $45.00 plus $3.00 S&H. List price is $59.95. The book is due to delivered to Dave the week of October 14th. Dave can be contacted at: David Sweetland 702 McKernan Ln. Exton, PA 19341 Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton" Subject: RE: [PRR] Paint Removal Query Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 09:00:19 +0100 >>I use auto brake fluid. Let the model sit in it for a short while. Paint will come right off. Also, denatured alcohol will work.<< Be very, very, careful with this – brake fluid will dissolve some models or turn the plastic rubbery and unpaintable - it depends entirely on the plastic used, and success with one maker’s cars may not be a guide to success with another’s models. Alcohols work on acrylic and similar paints, but for solvent based paints nothing beats a strong caustic soda solution Aidrian The Voice of Experience Yorkshire --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 03/10/2002 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 06:41:14 -0400 From: TWRimer@uss.com Subject: [PRR] N6 caboose Did the Pennsy ever install their radio antenna rig on any N6 wooden cabooses? I've never seen a photo of one equipped as-such, but as I've learned over the years with the Pennsy, never say never. Thank You Tom Rimer twrimer@uss.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 07:20:53 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: weathered paint on icing station Jerry, A few years back there was a good article on peeling paint in MR. The author took rubber cement and created "patches" over his base coat, he then painted over it with the final coat. After it dried he peeled the rubber cement off and it left a nice "peeled" area. This method should work with small areas as well as large ones. Regards, Nick Kulp Can anybody help me or give me advice on the following: I am building an Icing Platform from stained wood and would like to simulate weathered paint over the stained wood. I would like to get the effect of peeling in small and large spots on the face of the planks along with the edges. I tried painting then drying followed by rubbing areas with a Q-tip dipped in thiner. That gave me a worn look but not peeling. I then tried placing small dabs of Vaseline with a toothpick on random areas, then painting with acrylic. Once dried, I brushed the area with a toothbrush and that gave me a more peeled look. The trouble is I can only get relatively large-area peels. I would like to get very small peel dots. Can anyone shed some light? Thanks in advance, Jerry Colman http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 04:53:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Randolph Harrison Subject: [PRR] Pensylvania Avenue Station? --0-182564806-1034077986=:46743 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Do any of you know of the existance of a former Pennsylvania Avenue Station in Baltimore, Maryland? It would have been at the south portal to the B&P Tunnel on the main line to Washington D.C. I have seen it referred to in captions to several old photographs in books. My mother, through her father who was a 44 year PRR man, knew quite a bit about the PRR. She said that she had never heard of it. She traveled extensively on the PRR on her father's pass. She was born in 1918. My grandfather would have known. But, he passed away in 1963, long before I ever heard of the Pennsylvania Avenue Station. Did this station exist? If so, was it underground or open platforms, with stairs to the street, down in the cut where the tracks are? Thanks for any information. Randy Harrison --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com --0-182564806-1034077986=:46743 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Do any of you know of the existance of a former Pennsylvania Avenue Station in Baltimore, Maryland? It would have been at the south portal to the B&P Tunnel on the main line to Washington D.C. I have seen it referred to in captions to several old photographs in books. My mother, through her father who was a 44 year PRR man, knew quite a bit about the PRR. She said that she had never heard of it. She traveled extensively on the PRR on her father's pass. She was born in 1918. My grandfather would have known. But, he passed away in 1963, long before I ever heard of the Pennsylvania Avenue Station. Did this station exist? If so, was it underground or open platforms, with stairs to the street, down in the cut where the tracks are?

Thanks for any information.

Randy Harrison


Do you Yahoo!?
Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more
faith.yahoo.com --0-182564806-1034077986=:46743-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Conan Evans" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pensylvania Avenue Station? Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 08:33:45 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01C26EA5.6AAE6B30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The station did exist. One can still see the platforms. On several occasions I've been in that neighborhood at street level and looked down into the "pit" where the tracks exit B&P and then duck back into another short tunnel which I'm not sure of its name. From street level, I've found it is very difficult to photograph down into the "pit". What I have as far as photographs are plagued by shadows and poor composition. To any extent, a step ladder is required because the area is heavily fenced and barricaded. Furthermore, the surrounding neighborhood gives the Anacostia area a good name; I used very extreme caution. A couple of times I've rode an Amtrak or MARC train and have seen both sides at platform level. Several years ago, the Sun newspaper did a story on the B&P tunnels and gave a description of the Pennsylvania Ave station. I can't really give an accurate time frame of when the story was printed. To through out some questions for discussion, when was the gauntlet installed thru the B&P tunnels? On the south side of the tunnels was an interchange with the Western Maryland Railroad. Just a couple of years ago, one could see a WM billboard painted on a warehouse building side from the NEC tracks. The PRR at one time had quite a track plan on the southeast side of Baltimore. Lots of industrial stubs branched off the main. Anybody have any track plans of that area? I'm reluctant to use "Main Line" in PRR reference because at one time, the line south of Baltimore was actually a branch down to Popes Creek on the Potomac river. At Bowie, MD the PRR ran a "branch" over to Washington DC. Conan Evans Bristow, VA nee Baltimorean -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Randolph Harrison Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 7:53 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Pensylvania Avenue Station? Do any of you know of the existance of a former Pennsylvania Avenue Station in Baltimore, Maryland? It would have been at the south portal to the B&P Tunnel on the main line to Washington D.C. I have seen it referred to in captions to several old photographs in books. My mother, through her father who was a 44 year PRR man, knew quite a bit about the PRR. She said that she had never heard of it. She traveled extensively on the PRR on her father's pass. She was born in 1918. My grandfather would have known. But, he passed away in 1963, long before I ever heard of the Pennsylvania Avenue Station. Did this station exist? If so, was it underground or open platforms, with stairs to the street, down in the cut where the tracks are? Thanks for any information. Randy Harrison ------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01C26EA5.6AAE6B30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The=20 station did exist.  One can still see the platforms.  On = several=20 occasions I've been in that neighborhood at street level and looked down = into=20 the "pit" where the tracks exit B&P and then duck back into another = short=20 tunnel which I'm not sure of its name.  From street level, I've = found it is=20 very difficult to photograph down into the "pit".  What I have as = far as=20 photographs are plagued by shadows and poor composition.  To any = extent, a=20 step ladder is required because the area is heavily fenced and = barricaded. =20 Furthermore, the surrounding neighborhood gives the Anacostia area a = good=20 name;  I used very extreme caution. 
 
A=20 couple of times I've rode an Amtrak or MARC train and have seen both = sides at=20 platform level.  Several years ago, the Sun newspaper did a story = on the=20 B&P tunnels and gave a description of the Pennsylvania Ave = station.  I=20 can't really give an accurate time frame of when the story was=20 printed.
 
To=20 through out some questions for discussion, when was the gauntlet=20 installed thru the B&P tunnels?  On the south side of = the=20 tunnels was an interchange with the Western Maryland Railroad.  = Just a=20 couple of years ago, one could see a WM billboard painted on a warehouse = building side from the NEC tracks.  The PRR at one time had quite a = track=20 plan on the southeast side of Baltimore.  Lots of industrial stubs = branched=20 off the main.  Anybody have any track plans of that=20 area?
 
I'm=20 reluctant to use "Main Line" in PRR reference because at one time, the = line=20 south of Baltimore was actually a branch down to Popes Creek on the = Potomac=20 river.  At Bowie, MD the PRR ran a "branch" over to Washington = DC. =20
 
Conan=20 Evans
Bristow, VA
nee Baltimorean
 
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Randolph=20 Harrison
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 7:53 = AM
To:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Pensylvania Avenue=20 Station?

Do any of you know of the existance of a former Pennsylvania Avenue = Station=20 in Baltimore, Maryland? It would have been at the south portal to the = B&P=20 Tunnel on the main line to Washington D.C. I have seen it referred to = in=20 captions to several old photographs in books. My mother, through her = father=20 who was a 44 year PRR man, knew quite a bit about the PRR. She said = that she=20 had never heard of it. She traveled extensively on the PRR on her = father's=20 pass. She was born in 1918. My grandfather would have known. But, he = passed=20 away in 1963, long before I ever heard of the Pennsylvania Avenue = Station. Did=20 this station exist? If so, was it underground or open platforms, with = stairs=20 to the street, down in the cut where the tracks are?

Thanks for any information.

Randy Harrison


------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01C26EA5.6AAE6B30-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 06:33:49 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] List of Stations and Sidings... The 1923 List of Stations and Sidings and Instructions for Making Reports to the Superintendent of Car Service (or whatever the title was that year), otherwise known as the 1923 CT1000, notes that it supercedes the 1918 CT1000 and the 1913 PL506. PL506 appears to be the Lines West version of CT1000. Recently a 1905 PL506 was sold on eBay, and a few years ago a 1913 PL506 sold there also. Thus we know that the 1913 PL506 was the last one and that there was one in 1905. I'm hoping that the fellow who bought the 1905 will let me know what it superceded. There was also a CR4, the Long Island Railroad's "List of Stations and...". There are two in a libary in New York, dated 1924 and 1913. Apparently the LIRR books remained separate from the CT1000. Does anyone have or know of other editions in these two series? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Chiacgo Chapter PRRT&HS Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 13:45:12 +0000 Fo those who are interested we had our first meeting on Saturday and I had a blast. We had two guys who worked Englewood tower who kept us enthralled for three hours with stories. We have at least five guys I would rank as experts regarding the PRR in the Chicago area. One of the best stories we heard was about a tower so close to the tracks that they emptied the trash by dumping it from the tower into the first open car that went by! The three hours went by far too quickly. We will be going to the 20th Cnetury RR club viewing roon in Chicago in November as an unofficial outing and our next meeting is scheduled for January 4 at this point. If you are on the fence we would love to have you join us and be a founding member of a brand new chapter that already appears that the contribution it can make to the society will be significant in the future. By January we should be at least 20 strong as there were several people who couldn't make it Saturday. Future programs will include one by George Pierson on PRR engines of the 1920's (his area of interest) and one that will consist of slides taken at Englewood in the late 40's. We are leaning toward calling ourselves the "Chicago Terminal" chapter but nearly everything is up in the air at this point. If you are in the midwest you really should mark your calendar for 1/4 and plan to attend. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] CUT Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 13:46:36 +0000 Anybody see the Presidents speach last night? Did that take place at CUT? Sure looked like it could have been to me with the murals in the background. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 10:02:40 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] CUT On Tue, Oct 08, 2002 at 01:46:36PM +0000, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Anybody see the Presidents speach last night? Did that take place at CUT? > Sure looked like it could have been to me with the murals in the background. Yes, it did. NPR actually mentioned this fact several times during its broadcast. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 09:09:04 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] CUT From: Roger P Hensley Yes it was. On Tue, 08 Oct 2002 13:46:36 +0000 ndbprr@att.net writes: > Anybody see the Presidents speach last night? Did that take place at > CUT? > Sure looked like it could have been to me with the murals in the > background. Roger Hensley === Railroads of Madison County === === http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ === ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 10:38:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pensylvania Avenue Station? --part1_11a.182b2b41.2ad447e1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/8/02 8:00:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hbcrandy@yahoo.com writes: > Do any of you know of the existance of a former Pennsylvania Avenue Station > in Baltimore, Maryland? It would have been at the south portal to the B&P > Tunnel on the main line to Washington D.C. I have seen it referred to in > captions to several old photographs in books. My mother, through her father > who was a 44 year PRR man, knew quite a bit about the PRR. She said that > she had never heard of it. She traveled extensively on the PRR on her > father's pass. She was born in 1918. My grandfather would have known. But, > he passed away in 1963, long before I ever heard of the Pennsylvania Avenue > Station. Did this station exist? If so, was it underground or open > platforms, with stairs to the street, down in the cut where the tracks are? > > Thanks for any information. > > Randy Harrison > Hi Randy and others, The Spring 1995 issue of the Keystone (Vol. 28, No. 1) has an extensive article on the PRR in Baltimore by Frank A. Wrabel. The Pennsylvania Ave. Station is shown in a photo of the front of the station at street level and a drawing of the rear of the station and platforms. Access to the platforms from the street would appear to be by stairways inside of the station building. The station was two stories high at street level and two stories down from street level to the platforms, which were in the cut. A 1949 PRR map of Baltimore does not show any indication of the station. The article also shows plans of the Edmonson Ave. in West Baltimore. Check the PRRT&HS web site, http://www.prrths.com/, for availabilty of Keystone back issues. For anyone interested in the PRR in Baltimore, this issue is a must. Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_11a.182b2b41.2ad447e1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/8/02 8:00:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hbcrandy@yahoo.com writes:


Do any of you know of the existance of a former Pennsylvania Avenue Station in Baltimore, Maryland? It would have been at the south portal to the B&P Tunnel on the main line to Washington D.C. I have seen it referred to in captions to several old photographs in books. My mother, through her father who was a 44 year PRR man, knew quite a bit about the PRR. She said that she had never heard of it. She traveled extensively on the PRR on her father's pass. She was born in 1918. My grandfather would have known. But, he passed away in 1963, long before I ever heard of the Pennsylvania Avenue Station. Did this station exist? If so, was it underground or open platforms, with stairs to the street, down in the cut where the tracks are?

Thanks for any information.

Randy Harrison


Hi Randy and others,

The Spring 1995 issue of the Keystone (Vol. 28, No. 1) has an extensive article on the PRR in Baltimore by Frank A. Wrabel.  The Pennsylvania Ave. Station is shown in a photo of the front of the station at street level and a drawing of the rear of the station and platforms.  Access to the platforms from the street would appear to be by stairways inside of the station building.  The station was two stories high at street level and two stories down from street level to the platforms, which were in the cut.  A 1949 PRR map of Baltimore does not show any indication of the station.  The article also shows plans of the Edmonson Ave. in West Baltimore.

Check the PRRT&HS web site, http://www.prrths.com/,  for availabilty of Keystone back issues.  For anyone interested in the PRR in Baltimore, this issue is a must.

Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_11a.182b2b41.2ad447e1_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: Re: [PRR] List of Stations and Sidings... Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 09:33:11 -0400 Gents; Ebay has a whole list of old PRR phone books and books with this title as we speak. Type in PRR BOOKS. Might be surprised what is there. Earl Myers ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert netzlof" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 9:33 AM Subject: [PRR] List of Stations and Sidings... > The 1923 List of Stations and Sidings and Instructions for Making > Reports to the Superintendent of Car Service (or whatever the title > was that year), otherwise known as the 1923 CT1000, notes that it > supercedes the 1918 CT1000 and the 1913 PL506. > > PL506 appears to be the Lines West version of CT1000. Recently a 1905 > PL506 was sold on eBay, and a few years ago a 1913 PL506 sold there > also. > > Thus we know that the 1913 PL506 was the last one and that there was > one in 1905. I'm hoping that the fellow who bought the 1905 will let > me know what it superceded. > > There was also a CR4, the Long Island Railroad's "List of Stations > and...". There are two in a libary in New York, dated 1924 and 1913. > Apparently the LIRR books remained separate from the CT1000. > > Does anyone have or know of other editions in these two series? > > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More > http://faith.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 10:51:47 -0400 From: Zak Subject: [PRR] Paint and Paint Job Questions This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_owxxPBCoui9zzpktF2kDBw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Thanks to all that replied to my two questions. For those who are into biking, I found out a few years back that brake fluid also does a pretty good job on taking rust off of chrome. Zak --Boundary_(ID_owxxPBCoui9zzpktF2kDBw) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Thanks to all that replied to my two questions.
 
For those who are into biking, I found out a few years back that brake fluid also does a pretty good job on taking rust off of chrome.

Zak
--Boundary_(ID_owxxPBCoui9zzpktF2kDBw)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 08:25:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Randolph Harrison Subject: [PRR] Baltimore Chapter of PRRT&HS?? --0-1663574211-1034090750=:11492 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Is their a Baltimore, Maryland local chapter of the PRRT&HS? If not, is anyone interested in starting one? Randy Harrison --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com --0-1663574211-1034090750=:11492 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Is their a Baltimore, Maryland local chapter of the PRRT&HS? If not, is anyone interested in starting one?

Randy Harrison


Do you Yahoo!?
Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more
faith.yahoo.com --0-1663574211-1034090750=:11492-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 08:28:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Randolph Harrison Subject: Re: [PRR] Pensylvania Avenue Station? --0-59483466-1034090919=:38004 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thank you to all who responded to my qery on Pennsylvania Avenue Station in Baltimore, Maryland. Randy Harrison --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com --0-59483466-1034090919=:38004 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Thank you to all who responded to my qery on Pennsylvania Avenue Station in Baltimore, Maryland.

Randy Harrison


Do you Yahoo!?
Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more
faith.yahoo.com --0-59483466-1034090919=:38004-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: RE: [PRR] Chicago Chapter PRRT&HS Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 10:37:45 -0500 Norm and List, Norm, thanks for taking the time to get things rolling. I know that I'm not the only one who enjoyed the fellowship. I would like to thank all the people who shared their models, prototype information and real life adventures. The time went by too fast. Pete Reinhold Prairie Du Sac, WI ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago Chapter PRRT&HS Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 10:37:32 -0400 Gents; Is the Chi Chapter up & running yet as a Chapter?? I live in Ohio so a Lines West Chapter would be a good thing to belong to..... Earl Myers ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Reinhold" To: "PRR-TALK" Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 11:37 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Chicago Chapter PRRT&HS > Norm and List, > > Norm, thanks for taking the time to get things rolling. I know that > I'm not the only one who enjoyed the fellowship. I would like to thank > all the people who shared their models, prototype information and real > life adventures. The time went by too fast. > > Pete Reinhold > Prairie Du Sac, WI > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 11:57:45 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Baltimore Chapter of PRRT&HS?? From: Jerry Britton On 10/8/02 11:25 AM, Randolph Harrison (hbcrandy@yahoo.com) wrote: > Is their a Baltimore, Maryland local chapter of the PRRT&HS? If not, is anyone > interested in starting one? > There's not, and there "may" not be enough interest. There is a Northern Central Chapter, named after the Northern Central Branch, which ran from Baltimore, through York and Harrisburg and Williamsport, eventually to Sodus Point NY. The chapter, however, concentrates on the line between Baltimore and Harrisburg, with a good bit of discussion on Baltimore. Meetings are held in York, and there are numerous members that come north from Maryland to attend these meetings. The only feasible chapter possibility I would foresee would be one between Baltimore and Washington. By bringing Washington into the mix, you might be able to generate more interest, plus you may draw PRR fans from Virginia. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 09:08:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Randolph Harrison Subject: Re: [PRR] Baltimore/Washington Chapter of PRRT&HS?? --0-2092287824-1034093306=:52198 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks to Mr. Britton's advice below, let me rephrase my proposal. Would anyone be interested in starting a local Baltimore/Washington chapter of the PRRT&HS? Randy Harrison Jerry Britton wrote:On 10/8/02 11:25 AM, Randolph Harrison (hbcrandy@yahoo.com) wrote: > Is their a Baltimore, Maryland local chapter of the PRRT&HS? If not, is anyone > interested in starting one? > There's not, and there "may" not be enough interest. There is a Northern Central Chapter, named after the Northern Central Branch, which ran from Baltimore, through York and Harrisburg and Williamsport, eventually to Sodus Point NY. The chapter, however, concentrates on the line between Baltimore and Harrisburg, with a good bit of discussion on Baltimore. Meetings are held in York, and there are numerous members that come north from Maryland to attend these meetings. The only feasible chapter possibility I would foresee would be one between Baltimore and Washington. By bringing Washington into the mix, you might be able to generate more interest, plus you may draw PRR fans from Virginia. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com --0-2092287824-1034093306=:52198 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Thanks to Mr. Britton's advice below, let me rephrase my proposal. Would anyone be interested in starting a local Baltimore/Washington chapter of the PRRT&HS?

Randy Harrison

 Jerry Britton wrote:

On 10/8/02 11:25 AM, Randolph Harrison (hbcrandy@yahoo.com) wrote:

> Is their a Baltimore, Maryland local chapter of the PRRT&HS? If not, is anyone
> interested in starting one?
>
There's not, and there "may" not be enough interest.

There is a Northern Central Chapter, named after the Northern Central
Branch, which ran from Baltimore, through York and Harrisburg and
Williamsport, eventually to Sodus Point NY. The chapter, however,
concentrates on the line between Baltimore and Harrisburg, with a good bit
of discussion on Baltimore. Meetings are held in York, and there are
numerous members that come north from Maryland to attend these meetings.

The only feasible chapter possibility I would foresee would be one between
Baltimore and Washington. By bringing Washington into the mix, you might be
able to generate more interest, plus you may Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more
faith.yahoo.com --0-2092287824-1034093306=:52198-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 12:18:08 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Baltimore/Washington Chapter of PRRT&HS?? From: Jerry Britton On 10/8/02 12:08 PM, Randolph Harrison (hbcrandy@yahoo.com) wrote: > > The only feasible chapter possibility I would foresee would be one between > Baltimore and Washington. By bringing Washington into the mix, you might be > able to generate more interest, plus you may Faith Hill > - Exclusive Performances, Videos, more > faith.yahoo.com Mr. Harrison's last post included a quote attributed to me. It was from me, but somehow the Faith Hill stuff was added. That did not originate from me and must have been added by Mr. Harrison inadvertently. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 09:20:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Randolph Harrison Subject: Re: [PRR] Baltimore/Washington Chapter of PRRT&HS?? --0-1919310721-1034094044=:8178 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii My apologies to Mr. Britton as to the misquote. I also have no idea who or what Faith Hill is. Randy Harrison Jerry Britton wrote:On 10/8/02 12:08 PM, Randolph Harrison (hbcrandy@yahoo.com) wrote: > > The only feasible chapter possibility I would foresee would be one between > Baltimore and Washington. By bringing Washington into the mix, you might be > able to generate more interest, plus you may Faith Hill > - Exclusive Performances, Videos, more > faith.yahoo.com Mr. Harrison's last post included a quote attributed to me. It was from me, but somehow the Faith Hill stuff was added. That did not originate from me and must have been added by Mr. Harrison inadvertently. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com --0-1919310721-1034094044=:8178 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

My apologies to Mr. Britton as to the misquote. I also have no idea who or what Faith Hill is.

Randy Harrison

 Jerry Britton wrote:

On 10/8/02 12:08 PM, Randolph Harrison (hbcrandy@yahoo.com) wrote:

>
> The only feasible chapter possibility I would foresee would be one between
> Baltimore and Washington. By bringing Washington into the mix, you might be
> able to generate more interest, plus you may Faith Hill
> - Exclusive Performances, Videos, more
> faith.yahoo.com

Mr. Harrison's last post included a quote attributed to me. It was from me,
but somehow the Faith Hill stuff was added. That did not originate from me
and must have been added by Mr. Harrison inadvertently.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model rail Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more
faith.yahoo.com --0-1919310721-1034094044=:8178-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 12:24:50 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Baltimore/Washington Chapter of PRRT&HS?? From: Jerry Britton On 10/8/02 12:20 PM, Randolph Harrison (hbcrandy@yahoo.com) wrote: > My apologies to Mr. Britton as to the misquote. I also have no idea who or > what Faith Hill is. > While it was misquoted as being from me, she is a megababe country singer. I don't listen to country, but I know who Faith Hill and Shania Twain are. Yowser! ;-) Apology accepted but unnecessary. Just wanted to keep the record straight! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 13:14:53 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: Paint removal Query Listers, The BEST thing I ever used was called Chameleon. It is (was) made by a small group in Northeast, Maryland. It is still available through Mainline Hobby Supplies at Blue Ridge Summit, Pa. It has never caused any plastic damage on any locos I have stripped. The only locomotives I ever had a problem with were when I used brake fluid on an early Stewart F3's The fluid removed a chemical in the plastic and the shells "spider-cracked" Steve saw this and had the formula changed for the plastic, so I was told. I have never had any other problems and I have painted Roco, Atlas, Athearn, Model Power, Walthers, and many others. Chameleon can be reused many times. All that is needed is that the liquid needs to "settle" and the clean liquid can be poured into another container. I also recommend running it through a strainer to remove particles. Regards, Nick Kulp http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] More on PRR tunnels Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 11:13:25 -0500 The portal of the tunnel in Cincinnati is still visible from the interstate which skirts the city on the east. A model of the portal is reputed to be the one that was manufactured in HO scale by Alexander Scale Models in the 1950-1970 era. -----Original Message----- From: Dan Cupper [mailto:cupper@att.net] Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 2:43 PM To: LAMAassoc@aol.com Cc: mahlkov@gtcom.net; asmiller@mitre.org; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] More on PRR tunnels Greetings to Jerry, Marty and the List: PRR referred to tunnels as either Natural or Artificial, and apparently the distinction wasn't always related to the difference in construction technique (cut-and-cover versus boring through rock). For example, PRR considered all six of its PT&T tunnels at Weehawken/Penn Station/Sunnyside Yard to be artificial (yet those weren't cut-and-cover), as well as all eleven of those related to the Suburban Station/30th Street/Zoo complex (most if not all of which *were* cut-and-cover). Besides the tunnels that have been noted in posts already, the following existed on Lines East. (On Lines West, most have already been mentioned here by others except for one or two on PRR's approach to Cincinnati and the three--one of them still active--that were on PRR's approach to Wheeling, W.Va.) Phila Div. Gallagherville Enola (3-these would be the artificial ones that Jerry mentioned) Schuylkill Div. Phoenixville Middle Div. East Altoona (artificial) Cresson Div. Carrolltown Pittsburgh Div. New Portage Lindencross Conemaugh Div. Bow Salina Leechburg Allegheny Div. Wood Hill Long Point Climax Brookville Summit Caledonia Williamsport Div. Paddy Mountain Beaver Dam (These two were on the ex-Lewisburg & Tyrone branch and one or both is/are still open as a rail-trail.) Sunbury St. Clair Baltimore Fulton St. Winans Marysville Also, considering those subsidiary roads that were closely held, there were/are at least two on the Monongahela Railway (one built in the late 1960s) and one on the Western Allegheny RR. Hope this helps, Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: FW: [PRR] Chicago Chapter PRRT&HS Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 15:33:58 -0500 Gents; Is the Chi Chapter up & running yet as a Chapter?? I live in Ohio so a Lines West Chapter would be a good thing to belong to..... Earl Myers ----- Earl & list, Norm could answer this better than I. But, here is the short answer. We have to finish our paperwork to become a Chapter. The one big problem at the meeting was that there were too many good names for the Chapter. In my mind we have a Chapter started, with the paperwork in process but not finished. Norm feel free to correct any errors. Pete Reinhold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 17:22:38 -0400 From: Mike Calo Subject: Re: [PRR] Baltimore/Washington Chapter of PRRT&HS?? I would be very interested in a Baltimore/Washington chapter of PRRT&HS; I did most of my train watching along the PRR/AMTRAK lines in Baltimore, Washington and points between (most notably Odenton). Mike Calo Annapolis MD Randolph Harrison wrote: > Thanks to Mr. Britton's advice below, let me rephrase my proposal. > Would anyone be interested in starting a local Baltimore/Washington > chapter of the PRRT&HS? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: [PRR] PRRTHS Chapters Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 18:20:11 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AC_01C26EF7.56EF5C60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Now that Chicago is at least started. How about Dallas? Are there = enough interested in starting a Dallas TX chapter for the PRRTHS? And = who can spearhead it? I will help, but am totally ignorant of = procedure. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF Member of Trinity Valley Railroad Historical Association Inactive member of Illinois Tech Model Railroaders ------=_NextPart_000_00AC_01C26EF7.56EF5C60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Now that Chicago is at least = started. =20 How about Dallas?  Are there enough interested in starting a Dallas = TX=20 chapter for the PRRTHS?  And who can spearhead it?  I will = help, but=20 am totally ignorant of procedure.
 
Morgan = Bilbo
Ferroequinologist
PRRTHS=20 #1204 and SPF
Member of Trinity Valley Railroad Historical=20 Association
Inactive member of Illinois Tech Model=20 Railroaders
------=_NextPart_000_00AC_01C26EF7.56EF5C60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 20:40:30 -0400 Subject: [PRR] ER Models Sharks in N Scale From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" The second run of ER Models N scale Baldwin RF16 Sharks are out. These are the Pennsy five stripers. There are four AB sets available. Two observations: 1) The paint is sharp and crisp. Unlike the first run (single stripe), the yellow is a much better rendition. Last year's run was too yellow. 2) The mechanism is the same as last year, which is a good thing. An otherwise reputable dealer from Baltimore was telling people this run switched to a much cheaper Bachmann mechanism. It is, in fact, the same mechanism as before. I popped the hood and checked! It continues to take the same Digitrax plug-n-play decoder as well. I have two sets of single stripers from last year, and I picked up two sets of the five stripers this go round. The additional two sets are tempting, but EMD F3's are around the corner from InterMountain and I don't want to get too Baldwin heavy! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 00:28:00 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/08/02 --part1_a4.2d88c094.2ad50a50_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/8/02 12:02:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > PRR-Talk Digest - Tuesday, October 8, 2002 I'm just curious why such a bid chunk of this digest came to me in blue and underlined. Was readable but distracting -- probably not quite as bad as a posting that's all in caps. BTW, after years of detesting the "HTML echo", I find I'm stuck with it in AOL 7.0. Anyone know if this is a "feature" of the new 8.0 as well? I'd love to turn it off, but there's no way if you use flash sessions ("Automatic AOL") to keep your phone line open. Someday I'd like some AOL employee to explain to me how locking me into an HTML regurgitation of every word I write is in my best interest. Eagerly awaiting DSL in my neighborhood... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_a4.2d88c094.2ad50a50_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/8/02 12:02:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


PRR-Talk Digest - Tuesday, October 8, 2002


I'm just curious why such a bid chunk of this digest came to me in blue and underlined.  Was readable but distracting -- probably not quite as bad as a posting that's all in caps.

BTW, after years of detesting the "HTML echo", I find I'm stuck with it in AOL 7.0.  Anyone know if this is a "feature" of the new 8.0 as well?  I'd love to turn it off, but there's no way if you use flash sessions ("Automatic AOL") to keep your phone line open.  Someday I'd like some AOL employee to explain to me how locking me into an HTML regurgitation of every word I write is in my best interest.

Eagerly awaiting DSL in my neighborhood...


Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_a4.2d88c094.2ad50a50_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 23:41:54 -0700 From: Peter Weiglin Subject: [PRR] Faith Hill Wasn't Faith Hill the stiff grade north of Sunbury, so named because with an H6sb on the point, a great deal of engine crew prayer accompanied the efforts to surmount the grade?? Or was there more than one Faith Hill?? Peter Weiglin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Pennsyman50@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 13:54:23 EDT Subject: [PRR] Chapters --part1_113.18dd5de5.2ad5c74f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What about the Buffalo area? Jon Anderson pennsyman50@aol.com --part1_113.18dd5de5.2ad5c74f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What about the Buffalo area?


Jon Anderson
pennsyman50@aol.com --part1_113.18dd5de5.2ad5c74f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 14:02:58 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Chicago Chapter Web Site From: Jerry Britton There is now, or at least the beginnings of, an official web site for the Chicago Chapter of the PRRT&HS. The chapter is, I believe, pending approval by the BoD. The URL is http://prrths-chic.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 15:39:27 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/09/02 >Marvin wrote: > >The portal of the tunnel in Cincinnati is still visible from the interstate >which skirts the city on the east. Marvin, Can you point out the location more precisely? I assume you mean this is visible from I 275, but about where? I'll be in the Cinci area in the next several months and would like to see this. Thanks, Tom Hayden ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Chicago Chapter Web Site Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 15:44:23 -0400 Congrats to the Windy City on forming a chapter. Hopefully, They are getting oral histories of all these ex-PRR workers. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Chicago chapter PRRT&HS Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 20:07:18 +0000 We now have 21 people on our e mail list and I know I have five or six more to add. What a start! Thanks to all with an interest. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Viv Brice" Subject: [PRR] Paint Removal Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 18:44:27 +1000 Somebody mentioned a good caustic solution as a good way to remove paint from plastic models. Try spray on oven cleaner - works a treat for me - but make sure that your ventilation is good Regards, Viv Brice An SPF from 'Down Under' ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 08:02:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Benjamin Sullivan Subject: Re: [PRR] Baltimore/Washington Chapter of PRRT&HS?? I would be interested in a Baltimore/Washington chapter. Ben Sullivan Rockville, MD ===== ____________________________________________________________ Ride the East Broad Top RR! http://www.spikesys.com/EBT Rockhill Furnace, PA __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 11:04:02 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] New Chapters for PRRT&HS Gents, I'm very pleased that so much interest has been generated in forming local chapters of the PRRT&HS. Anyone interested in starting a chapter should write Vice President Fred Shaefer c/o PRRT&HS, PO Box 712, Altoona, PA 16603-0712 and request a copy of the Society's and Chapter's By-Laws. For all intents and purposes ten of the people sponsoring a newly forming Chapter need to have been Society members for at least two years and a minimum of ten chapter members shall be society members in good standing thereafter. For those of you that are not currently subscribed to the Society's monthly electronic newsletter "e-NEWS," you may subscribe by sending a blank message addressed to PRRTHSe-NEWS-subscribe@yahoogroups.com. The newsletter is normally sent out on the third Friday of each month, however, the October edition will be sent the coming Friday, 11 October. BTW the recipients of the 2003 Society awards and the new directors standing for election, among other things, will be announced in this Friday's edition. Al Buchan PRRT&HS Director Editor "e-NEWS" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 21:25:57 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Open Houses From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" Every year a large group of layout operators in Delaware, eastern Pennsylvania, southern New Jersey, and eastern Maryland open their doors for holiday open houses. Once again, Ken McCorry has supplied me with the schedule. This year there are a whopping 91 layouts on the tour! The layouts that I know to be of good PRR content are posted on the Timetable page of Keystone Crossings (http://kc.pennsyrr.com/timetable.ws4d). I've already entered some "must see" layouts, including Ken McCorry's, Charlie Grant's, Charlie & Chris Carangi's, and Paul Backentose's. I will be adding Bob Jans and Bill Kachel shortly. I've also added Bill Gruber's (Reading) and Rick Spano's (huge N scale) layouts due to their excellence outside of the PRR theme. If I learn that more of these are PRR or have other "must see" characteristics, I will add them as well. Again, if your layout will be open, please contact me off-list. Enjoy! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don E. Anderson, Jr." Subject: [PRR] Tubular Train Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:45:38 -0400 To List Members: I've seen several references to a Budd Tubular train (PRR Keystone?) but don't have much beyond the fact that it existed. There are some drawings in the Keystone Crossing's database. Is this the same thing as the ill-fated Aero train? something similar but different? If anyone can point me to some decent books and/or other documentation that would be great. If you can point to an online site even better (out of work with limited funds). Thank you. Don --------------------------------------- Don E. Anderson, Jr. Mailto:andersond@bellsouth.net --------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:03:54 +0000 The tubular train was not the Aerotrain. It was an early attempt to speed up the corridor trains by lowering the center of gravity. It was fluted stainless steel and the cars were lower than standard cars because the passengers sat in a section much like a sunken living room in the center of the cars. It also had HEP (or the equivalent for the time) and had a power car at the head end. A picture of it appeared in Bill Volkmers book. It was not liked by the pasengers becasue of all the high level platforms on the corridor as I understand it. It was sold to either the GTW or the regional commuter district for Detroit and neverput into service. Several cars wound up on a dinner train on the Kalamazoo and Lake Shore RR based out of the Paw Paw Michigan area. I think they have since been resold again. > To List Members: > > I've seen several references to a Budd Tubular train (PRR Keystone?) but > don't have much beyond the fact that it existed. There are some drawings in > the Keystone Crossing's database. Is this the same thing as the ill-fated > Aero train? something similar but different? If anyone can point me to some > decent books and/or other documentation that would be great. If you can > point to an online site even better (out of work with limited funds). > > Thank you. > > Don > > --------------------------------------- > Don E. Anderson, Jr. > Mailto:andersond@bellsouth.net > --------------------------------------- > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:20:03 -0500 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] A little off-topic Hi, everyone, I need some help finding a lubrication product that someone I met recalled to me a few weeks ago. He described it as a relatively new lube or grease that he had seen demonstrated at (I think) an NMRA national. I think is was Arrow lube or something like this but I can't find anything from my net searches. Can anyone help? TIA, George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:28:39 -0500 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] MDC loco swap Hi, everyone, If any of you have the MDC 2-8-0 for the PRR (the larger 2-8-0 with the Belpaire boiler), either in kit form or built, would you be interested in a sale or a trade for an undec MDC 2-8-0 old timer? If so, please contact me off list. George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:36:18 -0500 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] Equip Diagrams for 1920 Hello, everyone, FYI - Although some of you may already know this, I was pleasantly surprised when I recently re-visited Rob's PRR website (www.prr.railfan.net) to find that he has added quite a few equipment diagrams for early PRR equipment, including many all-wood cars. Given my zeal for the PRR of the WW I era, this was especially exciting. A number of the wooden headend cars built into the late 1890's were still in mainline service around WW I and the data provided in thse diagrams is invaluable. The passenger car diagram list indicates that many of the pre-steel car era cars will soon be added. Some of these will be a challenge to model but they show a whole other PRR that was just as impressive as the one most of us know from the transition era. Kudo's to Rob and to the preservers of PRR data (esp. Bob Johnson) for making this great material available. George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:51:45 -0400 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train Don, Sounds like you're thinking of the Keystone Train, designed to operate behind GG1's on the NY-Washington haul. I don't have any info handy, but it seems this train was built by Budd and consisted mainly of coachs, a snack service car and a power car that provided for the trains electricity needs. (Seems like the train used electricity for heating and cooling rather than steam, so needed the power car for operation). It was built in the mid 1950's, if I recall, and far outlived the self-propelled lightweeight trains such as the Areotrain, etc.The cars had an unusual layout, with normal height vestibules, but sunken areas for seating between the trucks.They entered service as the Morning and Evening Keystones, making two round trips a day. I recall riding this train a number of times in the early to mid 1960's, and it used to make up the midnight train from New York to Philley, at least on saturdays, in 1965, the last time I rode it. It was a bit of a startling effect to sit down and realize the bottom of the your window was about level with the high level platforms. (Particularly when you recall that this was the era of the mini-skirt!). If they ever ran anywhere besides the NY-Washington line I'm not aware of it, though nothing would have stopped them from running out to Harrisburg that I'm aware of. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:10:06 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] A little off-topic George: My best guess is you are talking about Aero lubricants. They are made by a company called "aero-car". Among other places, they are carried by Loy's Toys and the product line can be found at: http://www.loystoys.com/ndx-aero-car.html Please note that other sources carry this product also and this is just the first one I could think of that carries it... Jeff Warner gpierson@trnty.edu wrote: >Hi, everyone, > >I need some help finding a lubrication product that someone I met recalled to >me a few weeks ago. He described it as a relatively new lube or grease that >he had seen demonstrated at (I think) an NMRA national. I think is was Arrow >lube or something like this but I can't find anything from my net searches. >Can anyone help? > >TIA, > >George Pierson > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:14:57 -0300 From: A Samostie Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train Dear Don and Group, Correct, as ndbprr stated, the Aerotrain was a different "experiment." I believe the PRR Keystone cars were similar in concept to the original Spanish Talgo trains of the 1950s. I'm not sure if the Keystone cars bore any cosmetic resemblance to the ACF / Talgo trains that operated on the Boston & Maine and New Haven, though. So, just what is a "tubular" train? Well, it's not just a tubular carbody shape like Amfleet or Metroliner cars. In the case of the Talgos, the cars lacked bulkhead ends, doors or partitions between the cars. The short cars were simply connected by diaphragms that extended the full height and width of the carbody. The effect was something like a long caterpillar: passengers had a continuous view through the coaches ahead. I'm assuming that the Keystone cars were similar. Perhaps someone on the list who is more familiar with the Keystone could confirm whether the cars had full height / width diaphragms or conventional doors between the cars. (In case anyone is interested, the modern Talgo cars now in operation throughout Spain and in Amtrak Cascades service do have bulkhead ends, but they retain the short car length and low roofline of their predecessors). On the PRR, the Keystone cars on the corridor were hauled by GG1s. There is a photo of a Keystone train in Karl Zimmerman's book, "The Remarkable GG1." Unfortunately, the photo is an approach shot, and doesn't give a good sense of what the cars really looked like, other than that they were low-slung, and were truly dwarfed by the GG1. I'm not sure if there were ride quality problems with the Keystone cars, but there were on the Aerotrain. The lightweight GM intercity bus shells that were used as the basis for Aerotrain coaches gave a poor ride, with single axles beneath each car end. The Aerotrains ended their days in Chicago commuter service on the Rock Island. An Aerotrain locomotive and several coaches can be seen at the National Railroad Museum in Green Bay, Wisconsin. Now... does anyone know why plastic HO scale horn-hook couplers are referred to as "Talgo" couplers? Cheers, Alan Samostie ELHS #3178 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:37:14 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train The tubular equipment was certainly low-slung. I recall riding DC- NY as a young nipper; at a high-level platform, your eye looked straight at the edge of the platform, as I recall! This was maybe 1956 or so. To help date it, there were still trolleys on the streets in Washington. Of course, at the time, I had no inkling that riding those cars would be a once-in-a-lifetime experience. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:51:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Randolph Harrison Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train --0-1057161250-1034265089=:78124 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I also remeber riding from Baltimore to New York during the same time frame in a low-slung coach. I also was quite young. I was with my grandfather who was a former PRR conductor. The coach that I remeber in which you rode nose-level with high platformed stations, my grandfather referred to as "stepdown coaches." The smoking lounges were at each end of the car above the trucks. several steps lead you down to the rest of the seats which were suspended between the two sets of trucks. They were like riding in the bottom level of the new, two-level MARC commuter coaches. They were supposedly a new idea at the time. I do not remember them as being tubular. Randy Harrison bobsin@nac.net wrote:The tubular equipment was certainly low-slung. I recall riding DC- NY as a young nipper; at a high-level platform, your eye looked straight at the edge of the platform, as I recall! This was maybe 1956 or so. To help date it, there were still trolleys on the streets in Washington. Of course, at the time, I had no inkling that riding those cars would be a once-in-a-lifetime experience. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com --0-1057161250-1034265089=:78124 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

I also remeber riding from Baltimore to New York during the same time frame in a low-slung coach. I also was quite young. I was with my grandfather who was a former PRR conductor. The coach that I remeber in which you rode nose-level with high platformed stations, my grandfather referred to as "stepdown coaches." The smoking lounges were at each end of the car above the trucks. several steps lead you down to the rest of the seats which were suspended between the two sets of trucks. They were like riding in the bottom level of the new, two-level MARC commuter coaches. They were supposedly  a new idea at the time. I do not remember them as being tubular.

Randy Harrison

 bobsin@nac.net wrote:

The tubular equipment was certainly low-slung. I recall riding DC-
NY as a young nipper; at a high-level platform, your eye looked
straight at the edge of the platform, as I recall! This was maybe
1956 or so. To help date it, there were still trolleys on the streets
in Washington. Of course, at the time, I had no inkling that riding
those cars would be a once-in-a-lifetime experience.

John Bobsin

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Do you Yahoo!?
Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more
faith.yahoo.com --0-1057161250-1034265089=:78124-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RBurg74133@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:10:39 EDT Subject: [PRR] Tubular Train Reference --part1_110.19dbb5eb.2ad7007f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI The Passenger Car Library Volume 4 has pictures (inside and out) and plans for this train. I rode this train in the mid 60's Wash to Phila, still remember the strange sensation at high level platforms. Ray Burghart SPF for over 50 years --part1_110.19dbb5eb.2ad7007f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI
The Passenger Car Library Volume 4 has pictures (inside and out) and plans for this train. I rode this train in the mid 60's Wash to Phila, still remember the strange sensation at high level platforms.

Ray Burghart
SPF for over 50 years --part1_110.19dbb5eb.2ad7007f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:02:10 -0400 From: bisbeelaw@cs.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train In 1982 or 1983, I saw the tubular train (the "Keystone") in storage on the premises of Selfridge Air National Guard Base outside of Detroit in Michigan. I don't know what may have happened to the equipment afterwards. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon Greiger" Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:37:44 -0400 At least 2 of the Keystone Tubular train cars are in Dinner Train Service in Walled Lake, Michigan, on Coe Rail. (not Conrail) I believe the power car is on the property, but I'm not sure. The shape of the cars are distinctive and not likely to be confused with anything else. I was told, but could not verify, that as old as they were they were generally electrically compatable with the early Amfleet coaches. The interiors were vandelized in the '80's when the all of the cars were stored at the CN former Grant Truck RR yard in Pontiac, MI., right next to a public road. (Nice play!!) I have slides or photos somewhere if anyone is interested. Maybe I could post them somehow. (I can scan them in the.jpg format.) Julian Wolfe, when he was head of SEMTA, (SouthEastern Michigan Transportation Authority) Rail Operations, purchased the train to ultimately be rebuild for rail commuter operations from Detroit to Pontiac, MI. The service never expanded beyond three round trips and was ultimately discontinued. I can't recall the year. All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Randolph Harrison" ; ; Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 1:02 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train > In 1982 or 1983, I saw the tubular train (the "Keystone") in storage on the premises of Selfridge Air National Guard Base outside of Detroit in Michigan. I don't know what may have happened to the equipment afterwards. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Kesytone (train not the magazine) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:46:05 +0000 I just remembered one other thing about the Keystone. It had raised bolted on red letters about one foot high on the sides that said Pennsylvania over the center of the cars. This was a departure from painted on lettering on most PRR passenger equipment. Wasn't a model of it offered by Railworks a couple of years ago in HO? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train From: Matthew J Brown Date: 09 Oct 2002 22:49:34 -0700 There's one picture of the Keystone 'Tubular Train' in Don Wood's 'I Remember Pennsy', page 20. -Matthew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Tubular Train Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:20:00 -0400 When I was Gang Foreman at 30th St. Penn Coach Yard in 1962 we had the tubular train based there for maintenance. It had a power car 9606 with a Hercules Diesel. The train went north to New York at 7 AM, south to Washington, north the New York, south to Washington, North to New York and returned to Philadelphia around 11 PM as I recall. In the early days, ( I believe it was built in 1954 or 55) it did not have steam train lines to allow non-tubular cars to be attached. The power car provided electric heat and light. Shortly after it entered service it became necessary to tack Southern train equipment on the rear at Washington so they had to add steam connectors and through piping along the center sills. One day per month, the train had to be taken out of service for servicing of the power car. There was one thing unique about the train other than the electric heat and the tubular design. That was the fact that it was the ONLY passenger equipment on the entire railroad equipped with disc brakes. The troops did not like this because the only way one could access the brakes for repairs was to put the train over a pit. There were only 3 pits in the entire corridor. Every two years, the train had to be put over the pit in Phillie and all the brake cylinders removed and taken in the shop for overhaul and then put back onto the train. This took the train out of service for at least a week. Them were the days. Bill Volkmer -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Weldon Greiger Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 1:38 PM To: bisbeelaw@cs.com; Randolph Harrison; bobsin@nac.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train At least 2 of the Keystone Tubular train cars are in Dinner Train Service in Walled Lake, Michigan, on Coe Rail. (not Conrail) I believe the power car is on the property, but I'm not sure. The shape of the cars are distinctive and not likely to be confused with anything else. I was told, but could not verify, that as old as they were they were generally electrically compatable with the early Amfleet coaches. The interiors were vandelized in the '80's when the all of the cars were stored at the CN former Grant Truck RR yard in Pontiac, MI., right next to a public road. (Nice play!!) I have slides or photos somewhere if anyone is interested. Maybe I could post them somehow. (I can scan them in the.jpg format.) Julian Wolfe, when he was head of SEMTA, (SouthEastern Michigan Transportation Authority) Rail Operations, purchased the train to ultimately be rebuild for rail commuter operations from Detroit to Pontiac, MI. The service never expanded beyond three round trips and was ultimately discontinued. I can't recall the year. All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Randolph Harrison" ; ; Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 1:02 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train > In 1982 or 1983, I saw the tubular train (the "Keystone") in storage on the premises of Selfridge Air National Guard Base outside of Detroit in Michigan. I don't know what may have happened to the equipment afterwards. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:22:09 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train I had always heard that the reason for the HEP was that the dropped floor design of the cars left no room under the car for generators and batteries. So where was the AC equipment? Assuming it was electromechanical AC driven off the HEP. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== > When I was Gang Foreman at 30th St. Penn Coach Yard in 1962 we had the > tubular train based there for maintenance. It had a power car 9606 with > a Hercules Diesel. The train went north to New York at 7 AM, south to > Washington, north the New York, south to Washington, North to New York > and returned to Philadelphia around 11 PM as I recall. > > In the early days, ( I believe it was built in 1954 or 55) it did not > have steam train lines to allow non-tubular cars to be attached. The > power car provided electric heat and light. Shortly after it entered > service it became necessary to tack Southern train equipment on the rear > at Washington so they had to add steam connectors and through piping > along the center sills. > > One day per month, the train had to be taken out of service for > servicing of the power car. > > There was one thing unique about the train other than the electric heat > and the tubular design. That was the fact that it was the ONLY > passenger equipment on the entire railroad equipped with disc brakes. > The troops did not like this because the only way one could access the > brakes for repairs was to put the train over a pit. There were only 3 > pits in the entire corridor. > > Every two years, the train had to be put over the pit in Phillie and all > the brake cylinders removed and taken in the shop for overhaul and then > put back onto the train. This took the train out of service for at > least a week. > > Them were the days. > > Bill Volkmer > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Weldon > Greiger > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 1:38 PM > To: bisbeelaw@cs.com; Randolph Harrison; bobsin@nac.net; > PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train > > At least 2 of the Keystone Tubular train cars are in Dinner Train > Service in > Walled Lake, Michigan, on Coe Rail. (not Conrail) I believe the power > car > is on the property, but I'm not sure. The shape of the cars are > distinctive > and not likely to be confused with anything else. I was told, but could > not > verify, that as old as they were they were generally electrically > compatable > with the early Amfleet coaches. > > The interiors were vandelized in the '80's when the all of the cars were > stored at the CN former Grant Truck RR yard in Pontiac, MI., right next > to a > public road. (Nice play!!) I have slides or photos somewhere if anyone > is > interested. Maybe I could post them somehow. (I can scan them in > the.jpg > format.) > > Julian Wolfe, when he was head of SEMTA, (SouthEastern Michigan > Transportation Authority) Rail Operations, purchased the train to > ultimately > be rebuild for rail commuter operations from Detroit to Pontiac, MI. > The > service never expanded beyond three round trips and was ultimately > discontinued. I can't recall the year. > > All the best to you and yours Weldon > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Randolph Harrison" ; ; > > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 1:02 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train > > > In 1982 or 1983, I saw the tubular train (the "Keystone") in storage > on > the premises of Selfridge Air National Guard Base outside of Detroit in > Michigan. I don't know what may have happened to the equipment > afterwards. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Tubular Train Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:38:06 -0400 You are taxing my memory from 40 years ago! If I remember correctly it was in the ceiling at the non-vestibule end of the car. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Andrew S. Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 3:22 PM To: Bill Volkmer Cc: 'Weldon Greiger'; bisbeelaw@cs.com; 'Randolph Harrison'; bobsin@nac.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train I had always heard that the reason for the HEP was that the dropped floor design of the cars left no room under the car for generators and batteries. So where was the AC equipment? Assuming it was electromechanical AC driven off the HEP. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== > When I was Gang Foreman at 30th St. Penn Coach Yard in 1962 we had the > tubular train based there for maintenance. It had a power car 9606 with > a Hercules Diesel. The train went north to New York at 7 AM, south to > Washington, north the New York, south to Washington, North to New York > and returned to Philadelphia around 11 PM as I recall. > > In the early days, ( I believe it was built in 1954 or 55) it did not > have steam train lines to allow non-tubular cars to be attached. The > power car provided electric heat and light. Shortly after it entered > service it became necessary to tack Southern train equipment on the rear > at Washington so they had to add steam connectors and through piping > along the center sills. > > One day per month, the train had to be taken out of service for > servicing of the power car. > > There was one thing unique about the train other than the electric heat > and the tubular design. That was the fact that it was the ONLY > passenger equipment on the entire railroad equipped with disc brakes. > The troops did not like this because the only way one could access the > brakes for repairs was to put the train over a pit. There were only 3 > pits in the entire corridor. > > Every two years, the train had to be put over the pit in Phillie and all > the brake cylinders removed and taken in the shop for overhaul and then > put back onto the train. This took the train out of service for at > least a week. > > Them were the days. > > Bill Volkmer > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Weldon > Greiger > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 1:38 PM > To: bisbeelaw@cs.com; Randolph Harrison; bobsin@nac.net; > PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train > > At least 2 of the Keystone Tubular train cars are in Dinner Train > Service in > Walled Lake, Michigan, on Coe Rail. (not Conrail) I believe the power > car > is on the property, but I'm not sure. The shape of the cars are > distinctive > and not likely to be confused with anything else. I was told, but could > not > verify, that as old as they were they were generally electrically > compatable > with the early Amfleet coaches. > > The interiors were vandelized in the '80's when the all of the cars were > stored at the CN former Grant Truck RR yard in Pontiac, MI., right next > to a > public road. (Nice play!!) I have slides or photos somewhere if anyone > is > interested. Maybe I could post them somehow. (I can scan them in > the.jpg > format.) > > Julian Wolfe, when he was head of SEMTA, (SouthEastern Michigan > Transportation Authority) Rail Operations, purchased the train to > ultimately > be rebuild for rail commuter operations from Detroit to Pontiac, MI. > The > service never expanded beyond three round trips and was ultimately > discontinued. I can't recall the year. > > All the best to you and yours Weldon > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Randolph Harrison" ; ; > > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 1:02 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train > > > In 1982 or 1983, I saw the tubular train (the "Keystone") in storage > on > the premises of Selfridge Air National Guard Base outside of Detroit in > Michigan. I don't know what may have happened to the equipment > afterwards. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Tubular Train Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:00:02 -0400 I have diagrams of the cars on my site... See: #9600 Class HP53 Head end power car (class HP53) http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=hp53.gif #9601-9602 Class P85k (with dining section) http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p85k_2.gif #9603-9607 Class P85k (with smoking lounge) http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p85k.gif The AC question is answered by the floorplans. It was in a closet at one end of the car next to the womens bathroom! I wonder why all the cars were classed P85k when some had a lounge while some had a dining section? Seems like they should have had different classes. Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Andrew S. > Miller > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 3:22 PM > To: Bill Volkmer > Cc: 'Weldon Greiger'; bisbeelaw@cs.com; 'Randolph Harrison'; > bobsin@nac.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train > > > I had always heard that the reason for the HEP was that the dropped floor > design of the cars left no room under the car for generators and > batteries. > So where was the AC equipment? Assuming it was electromechanical > AC driven > off the HEP. > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > > > When I was Gang Foreman at 30th St. Penn Coach Yard in 1962 we had the > > tubular train based there for maintenance. It had a power car 9606 with > > a Hercules Diesel. The train went north to New York at 7 AM, south to > > Washington, north the New York, south to Washington, North to New York > > and returned to Philadelphia around 11 PM as I recall. > > > > In the early days, ( I believe it was built in 1954 or 55) it did not > > have steam train lines to allow non-tubular cars to be attached. The > > power car provided electric heat and light. Shortly after it entered > > service it became necessary to tack Southern train equipment on the rear > > at Washington so they had to add steam connectors and through piping > > along the center sills. > > > > One day per month, the train had to be taken out of service for > > servicing of the power car. > > > > There was one thing unique about the train other than the electric heat > > and the tubular design. That was the fact that it was the ONLY > > passenger equipment on the entire railroad equipped with disc brakes. > > The troops did not like this because the only way one could access the > > brakes for repairs was to put the train over a pit. There were only 3 > > pits in the entire corridor. > > > > Every two years, the train had to be put over the pit in Phillie and all > > the brake cylinders removed and taken in the shop for overhaul and then > > put back onto the train. This took the train out of service for at > > least a week. > > > > Them were the days. > > > > Bill Volkmer > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Weldon > > Greiger > > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 1:38 PM > > To: bisbeelaw@cs.com; Randolph Harrison; bobsin@nac.net; > > PRR-Talk@dsop.com > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train > > > > At least 2 of the Keystone Tubular train cars are in Dinner Train > > Service in > > Walled Lake, Michigan, on Coe Rail. (not Conrail) I believe the power > > car > > is on the property, but I'm not sure. The shape of the cars are > > distinctive > > and not likely to be confused with anything else. I was told, but could > > not > > verify, that as old as they were they were generally electrically > > compatable > > with the early Amfleet coaches. > > > > The interiors were vandelized in the '80's when the all of the cars were > > stored at the CN former Grant Truck RR yard in Pontiac, MI., right next > > to a > > public road. (Nice play!!) I have slides or photos somewhere if anyone > > is > > interested. Maybe I could post them somehow. (I can scan them in > > the.jpg > > format.) > > > > Julian Wolfe, when he was head of SEMTA, (SouthEastern Michigan > > Transportation Authority) Rail Operations, purchased the train to > > ultimately > > be rebuild for rail commuter operations from Detroit to Pontiac, MI. > > The > > service never expanded beyond three round trips and was ultimately > > discontinued. I can't recall the year. > > > > All the best to you and yours Weldon > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: "Randolph Harrison" ; ; > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 1:02 PM > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train > > > > > In 1982 or 1983, I saw the tubular train (the "Keystone") in storage > > on > > the premises of Selfridge Air National Guard Base outside of Detroit in > > Michigan. I don't know what may have happened to the equipment > > afterwards. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 18:58:17 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] A little off-topic In a message dated 10/10/02 10:17:16 AM Central Daylight Time, jeffrywarner@suscom.net writes: << My best guess is you are talking about Aero lubricants. They are made by a company called "aero-car". >> The most likely possibility,unless they were discussing Neolube, a suspension of graphite in liquid which leaves behind a conductive dry lubricant (graphite) after the liquid evaporates. Neolube is available from P-B-L at URL: http://www.p-b-l.com/pbl2000/pblnew-NS.html. I use it to blacken drivers and siderods, but am very careful around the insulated axles as it may bridge and cause a short. Bob Zoeller Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:32:01 -0300 From: A Samostie Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train, and on to Metroliners Dear Group, Now, another question. It would seem that the Keystone cars were about 20 years ahead of their time, which is perhaps the answer to my question: Does anyone know why the Keystone design was not duplicated on other roads, or why they were never more widely used on the PRR? It would seem that these cars could have provided a modern, economical solution for short-haul passenger service on many roads. It's just a shame that high-speed, hourly "Keystone Service" on the corridor did not become a reality (until the Metroliners were introduced in 1967-68). Which raises another question I've had... I know the Metroliners were designed for PRR, and many were delivered (and ran in test service) in PRR lettering. But, did any of them enter REVENUE service before the Penn Central merger? Cheers, Alan Samostie ELHS #3178 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 18:16:40 -0700 It was also written up long about that time in the Keystone as being "still around", with a couple of photos of it in storage as mentioned in Ivan's comment. Incidently, I grew up in Detroit, and Selfridge, while in truth located near Detroit, actually is close to Mt. Clemens (not that there is anything even remotely resembling a mountain in Mt. Clemens...) Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:02:10 -0400 bisbeelaw@cs.com wrote: > In 1982 or 1983, I saw the tubular train (the "Keystone") > in storage on the premises of Selfridge Air National > Guard Base outside of Detroit in Michigan. I don't know > what may have happened to the equipment afterwards. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Garry Spear Subject: RE: [PRR] Tubular Train Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:54:30 -0400 WOW, How many miles per day is that. Phila - NY 100 NY - Wash 300 Wash - NY 300 NY - Wash 300 Wash - NY 300 NY - Phila 100 ____ 1400 SWAG miles per day. Does somebody car to redo this with timetable miles. I bet Amtrak would kill to get equipment utilization like this. Garry Spear -----Original Message----- From: Bill Volkmer [SMTP:bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com] Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 2:20 PM To: 'Weldon Greiger'; bisbeelaw@cs.com; 'Randolph Harrison'; bobsin@nac.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Tubular Train When I was Gang Foreman at 30th St. Penn Coach Yard in 1962 we had the tubular train based there for maintenance. It had a power car 9606 with a Hercules Diesel. The train went north to New York at 7 AM, south to Washington, north the New York, south to Washington, North to New York and returned to Philadelphia around 11 PM as I recall. [Garry Spear] >> [Garry Spear] >> Snip >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 22:14:46 -0400 Garry, It's more like 90 miles and 225 miles, but that's still 1080 m.p.d. When the Acela's are running right, Amtrak is doing that or better. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Garry Spear" To: Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 9:54 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Tubular Train > WOW, How many miles per day is that. > > Phila - NY 100 > NY - Wash 300 > Wash - NY 300 > NY - Wash 300 > Wash - NY 300 > NY - Phila 100 > ____ > 1400 SWAG miles per day. > > Does somebody car to redo this with timetable miles. I bet Amtrak would kill to get equipment utilization like this. > > Garry Spear > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Volkmer [SMTP:bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 2:20 PM > To: 'Weldon Greiger'; bisbeelaw@cs.com; 'Randolph Harrison'; bobsin@nac.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: RE: [PRR] Tubular Train > > When I was Gang Foreman at 30th St. Penn Coach Yard in 1962 we had the > tubular train based there for maintenance. It had a power car 9606 with > a Hercules Diesel. The train went north to New York at 7 AM, south to > Washington, north the New York, south to Washington, North to New York > and returned to Philadelphia around 11 PM as I recall. > > [Garry Spear] >> > [Garry Spear] >> Snip > >> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 23:06:36 -0400 From: John Ryan Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train --------------020803010905060000090200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On the timetable I think it was Phil-NY 90 NY-DC 226 DC-NY 226 NY-Phil 90 Total 632 I think you may have an extra NY-DC roundtrip. John Ryan Garry Spear wrote: >WOW, How many miles per day is that. > >Phila - NY 100 >NY - Wash 300 >Wash - NY 300 >NY - Wash 300 >Wash - NY 300 >NY - Phila 100 > ____ > 1400 SWAG miles per day. > >Does somebody car to redo this with timetable miles. I bet Amtrak would kill to get equipment utilization like this. > >Garry Spear > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Bill Volkmer [SMTP:bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com] >Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 2:20 PM >To: 'Weldon Greiger'; bisbeelaw@cs.com; 'Randolph Harrison'; bobsin@nac.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: RE: [PRR] Tubular Train > >When I was Gang Foreman at 30th St. Penn Coach Yard in 1962 we had the >tubular train based there for maintenance. It had a power car 9606 with >a Hercules Diesel. The train went north to New York at 7 AM, south to >Washington, north the New York, south to Washington, North to New York >and returned to Philadelphia around 11 PM as I recall. > >[Garry Spear] >> >[Garry Spear] >> Snip > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > --------------020803010905060000090200 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On the timetable I think it was
Phil-NY 90
NY-DC 226
DC-NY 226
NY-Phil 90

Total 632

I think you may have an extra NY-DC roundtrip.

John Ryan

Garry Spear wrote:
WOW,  How many miles per day is that.

Phila - NY    100
NY - Wash   300
Wash - NY   300
NY - Wash   300
Wash - NY   300
NY - Phila    100
                   ____
                  1400  SWAG miles per day.

Does somebody car to redo this with timetable miles.  I bet Amtrak would kill to get equipment utilization like this.

Garry Spear			

 

-----Original Message-----
From:	Bill Volkmer [SMTP:bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com]
Sent:	Thursday, October 10, 2002 2:20 PM
To:	'Weldon Greiger'; bisbeelaw@cs.com; 'Randolph Harrison'; bobsin@nac.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject:	RE: [PRR] Tubular Train

When I 

was Gang Foreman at 30th St. Penn Coach Yard in 1962 we had the
tubular train based there for maintenance.  It had a power car 9606 with
a Hercules Diesel.  The train went north to New York at 7 AM, south to
Washington, north the New York, south to Washington, North to New York
and returned to Philadelphia around 11 PM as I recall.

[Garry Spear]  >>
[Garry Spear]  >>  Snip


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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--------------020803010905060000090200-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Equip Diagrams for 1920 Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 02:09:53 -0400 George, I uploaded the early passenger cars tonight. (PA - P58) Have fun! The quality on some of them isn't great but they're readable. Also, my website is just prr.railfan.net without the www. at the beginning! In your kudo's list for preservers of these diagrams, in addition to Bob Johnson, Tom Gardner George Elwood and Allen Stanley should also be mentioned for providing many of the other diagrams! Thanks to these guys there are over 1700 diagrams online now covering nearly every type of PRR equipment from the 1800's to the end of the PRR! Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of gpierson@trnty.edu Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 9:36 AM To: PRR list; PRR-talk Subject: [PRR] Equip Diagrams for 1920 Hello, everyone, FYI - Although some of you may already know this, I was pleasantly surprised when I recently re-visited Rob's PRR website (www.prr.railfan.net) to find that he has added quite a few equipment diagrams for early PRR equipment, including many all-wood cars. Given my zeal for the PRR of the WW I era, this was especially exciting. A number of the wooden headend cars built into the late 1890's were still in mainline service around WW I and the data provided in thse diagrams is invaluable. The passenger car diagram list indicates that many of the pre-steel car era cars will soon be added. Some of these will be a challenge to model but they show a whole other PRR that was just as impressive as the one most of us know from the transition era. Kudo's to Rob and to the preservers of PRR data (esp. Bob Johnson) for making this great material available. George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train, and on to Metroliners Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 12:56:24 +0000 I'm not sure the Keystone cars were the panacea for future cars - more of an experiment. If I am correct it required going up and down stairs in each car to transfer from one to another and would definitely not be ADA compliant. With a customer base that was used to convenience ( high level platforms, hourly service, GG1's, etc. )they were probably a step backward. I wouldn't be surprised if Budd ate some of the cost to get them in service to gauge public reaction. > > Dear Group, > > Now, another question. It would seem that the Keystone cars were about > 20 years ahead of their time, which is perhaps the answer to my > question: Does anyone know why the Keystone design was not duplicated > on other roads, or why they were never more widely used on the PRR? > > It would seem that these cars could have provided a modern, economical > solution for short-haul passenger service on many roads. It's just a > shame that high-speed, hourly "Keystone Service" on the corridor did not > become a reality (until the Metroliners were introduced in 1967-68). > > Which raises another question I've had... I know the Metroliners were > designed for PRR, and many were delivered (and ran in test service) in > PRR lettering. But, did any of them enter REVENUE service before the > Penn Central merger? > > Cheers, > Alan Samostie > ELHS #3178 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:10:39 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] GG1 varieties (more than you think!) Morning y'all, In light of the recent announcements by Roco and Broadway regarding new HO scale GG1s, I've been doing some research! I had naively thought that there were only three critical style differences in GG1 production. 1) 4800 - riveted prototype, uniquely shaped vents on the nose, slight contour differences 2) 4801 to 4858 - original production, flat pilot 3) 4859 to 4938 - drop coupler pilot Two oddballs have come to light in photos 4839 was photographed with a drop coupler pilot in 1957 (DGLE/1stripe). 4859 which is preserved in Harrisburg, appears to have flat pilots. It turns out that the photos reveal other variations as well! When built, all GG1s had vents in the nose that appear flush with the locomotive skin. Somewhere in the early 1950's the border of the vents begins to have a raised contour, perhaps 1-2" above the skin, which in turns make the vents look inset. In addition, vertical channels were added. Now, if the model produced is the later style and is done in styrene, you can carve it back flush, but its gonna be a WHOLE lot more work to do that with a diecast metal body (BLI). On the flip side, a flush vent shell could easily be modified with added detail parts to represent a later loco (which could also be done for the "high vent" GG1s, although you need to obliterate the low vents), so here's hoping for FLUSH VENTS! The vent contour was designed with the pin stripe spacing in mind (or vice versa). This is particularly evident in the one-of-a-kind 1937 scheme on 4829 where the 5 nose stripes became 1 at the vent. Close observation of the 5 stripe locos, as well as some photos of locos in later schemes indicate that thin strips of sheet metal were used across the vents to allow a continuous solid appearance to the pinstripes. No wonder I could never get the %$@# decals right on my IHC GG1! It appears that the same was done with 4800. When the single stripe schemes came along, the thin strips were replaced in many cases by a sheet of metal covering the top 1/5 or so of the vent. This sheet was attached on TOP of the raised border and so that segment of the stripe stood proud by 1-2". This is VERY noticable from any angle beside broadside. In many cases some, or all of the strips for the 5 stripe scheme reamined in place for years after the single stripe was adopted. I guess the good news is that these details are easily added to GG1 models with some sheet brass or styrene stock, since I'm afraid they may not be on either of the new ones, given that they might require a new mold for each paint scheme! Of course, the bottom line is that you have to work from PHOTOS !! For those of you with a copy of Pennsy Electric Pictorial, here are some photo references: p71 4849 - flush vents, DGLE/5 stripe with metal strips for the stripes, 1952. p79 4868 - flush vents, DGLE/5 stripe with metal strips for the stripes, 1956? (I'm dubious) p95 4894 - raised border, DGLE/5 stripe with metal strips for the stripes, 1956. p78 4866 - raised border, Silver/1 stripe with metal strips for pinstripes visible, and metal sheet for single stripe applied, 1956. p61 4810 - raised border, DGLE/1 stripe with metal plate for stripe, (note remnants of pinstrips on vertical channels) 1967. p84 4878 - raised border, DGLE/1 stripe with metal plate for stripe, 1969. Somewhere in my search I found a PC GG1 with the strips for the 5 stripe scheme still intact...that's what really set this thing off in my brain, and now I can't find that photo...sheesh! Anyway, hope you enjoy the info, I did this rather than grade my midterms (why get depressed, right?) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:30:19 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train --part1_18e.fbd8ca2.2ad8488b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/10/02 5:07:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, robs@actel.com writes: > I have diagrams of the cars on my site... See: > > #9600 Class HP53 Head end power car (class HP53) > http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=hp53.gif > #9601-9602 Class P85k (with dining section) > http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p85k_2.gif > #9603-9607 Class P85k (with smoking lounge) > http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p85k.gif > > The AC question is answered by the floorplans. It was in a closet > at one end of the car next to the womens bathroom! > > I wonder why all the cars were classed P85k when some had a lounge > while some had a dining section? Seems like they should have had > different classes. > > Rob Hi Rob and others, One wonders what the food service was like and how it was staffed. The head end power car had a kitchen area that occupied about a third of the car. The public timetable for New York-Philadelphia service dated July 26, 1958 shows the notation "Tubular designed cars. Coach lunch service. Refreshment Car" for trains which were equipped with the Keystone cars. "The Morning Keystone" northbound also had a parlor car and a parlor bar lounge car. "The Crescent" southbound in the afternoon had the tubular cars as part of the consist. "The Evening Keystone" northbound has only references to the tubular cars. "The Midnight Keystone" southbound also had sleeping cars. By this time, the tubular cars must have been making only 2 roundtrips. I think that by the late 1950's the PRR decided to stop buying new coaches for awhile. Instead, it refurbished P70's for a period of time until the Metroliners came along. The P85k's, with their dependence on a head end power car and their interiors with steps and ramps, didn't seem to be the answer to requirements for coaches in NY-Washington service. Andy Hart, PRRTH&S #92 --part1_18e.fbd8ca2.2ad8488b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/10/02 5:07:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, robs@actel.com writes:


I have diagrams of the cars on my site...  See:

#9600 Class HP53   Head end power car (class HP53)
http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=hp53.gif
#9601-9602  Class P85k (with dining section)
http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p85k_2.gif
#9603-9607 Class P85k (with smoking lounge)
http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p85k.gif

The AC question is answered by the floorplans.  It was in a closet
at one end of the car next to the womens bathroom!

I wonder why all the cars were classed P85k when some had a lounge
while some had a dining section?  Seems like they should have had
different classes.

Rob


Hi Rob and others,

One wonders what the food service was like and how it was staffed.

The head end power car had a kitchen area that occupied about a third of the car.

The public timetable for New York-Philadelphia service dated July 26, 1958 shows the notation "Tubular designed cars. Coach lunch service. Refreshment Car" for trains which were equipped with the Keystone cars.  "The Morning Keystone" northbound also had a parlor car and a parlor bar lounge car.  "The Crescent" southbound in the afternoon had the tubular cars as part of the consist. "The Evening Keystone" northbound has only references to the tubular cars. "The Midnight Keystone" southbound also had sleeping cars.  By this time, the tubular cars must have been making only 2 roundtrips.

I think that by the late 1950's the PRR decided to stop buying new coaches for awhile.  Instead, it refurbished P70's for a period of time until the Metroliners came along.  The P85k's, with their dependence on a head end power car and their interiors with steps and ramps, didn't seem to be the answer to requirements for coaches in NY-Washington service.

Andy Hart, PRRTH&S #92 --part1_18e.fbd8ca2.2ad8488b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Tom Kane Subject: RE: [PRR] Tubular Train, and on to Metroliners Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:00:59 -0700 Group, My personal rememberance is that I travelled on Metroliners from NYC to Washington in 1964 and 1965. I still have a sketch I made of the Metroliner, complete with Keytstone on the front. I tried to be in the first car so I could see what the engineer saw (I always did the same on the NYC subway and LIRR). Tom Kane -----Original Message----- From: A Samostie [mailto:quahog@sprint.ca] Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 8:32 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train, and on to Metroliners Dear Group, Now, another question. It would seem that the Keystone cars were about 20 years ahead of their time, which is perhaps the answer to my question: Does anyone know why the Keystone design was not duplicated on other roads, or why they were never more widely used on the PRR? It would seem that these cars could have provided a modern, economical solution for short-haul passenger service on many roads. It's just a shame that high-speed, hourly "Keystone Service" on the corridor did not become a reality (until the Metroliners were introduced in 1967-68). Which raises another question I've had... I know the Metroliners were designed for PRR, and many were delivered (and ran in test service) in PRR lettering. But, did any of them enter REVENUE service before the Penn Central merger? Cheers, Alan Samostie ELHS #3178 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:16:10 -0300 From: A Samostie Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train Dear Group, Andy Hart contributed: >> One wonders what the food service was like and how it was staffed. > The head end power car had a kitchen area that occupied about a third of the car. > The public timetable for New York-Philadelphia service dated July 26, 1958 shows the > notation "Tubular designed cars. Coach lunch service. Refreshment Car". Sounds like the equivalent of today's Amcafé... modern, spartan onboard meal service to match the modern car design concept. Remember, in the late 1950s, self-serve was a novelty, and people were actually eager to try it! (And, budget-minded travelers did not have to leave a tip). > The P85k's, with their dependence on a head end power car and their interiors with steps > and ramps, didn't seem to be the answer to requirements for coaches in > NY-Washington service. OK, I now understand why these cars would not have been an ideal choice for high-density routes like NY-Washington, given the interior steps. I still think they could have found a place on other routes, though (prior to today's ADA requirements). I have ridden bi-level commuter coaches whose windows were at the same level as high-level platforms, and it has never bothered me. My guess is that the crews actually disliked the interior steps more than the passengers did (as is often the case when bi-levels are first introduced on routes previously served by single-level coaches). And, since the Keystone cars were "orphans" on the roster, the maintenance crews probably didn't like them either. Too different, too early. So, then, what WAS the reason for the tubular design anyway, other than experimentation by Budd? Was PRR a driving force behind the concept (i.e., did they endorse it, and promote it in advertising), or were they just "along for the ride" with Budd? Cheers, Alan ELHS #3178 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 12:16:55 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Looking for Bill Emmon From: Jerry Britton Is Bill Emmon on this list? If so, please contact me off-list. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Tom Kane Subject: RE: [PRR] Metroliners Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:47:34 -0700 Alan, It was probably that late, but it was certainly before the PC merger. Upon further reflection I believe I first traveled on the Metroliner in the summer of 1967 (13 yrs old). They were certainly new. My parents would not have let me travel alone before that age. Tom -----Original Message----- From: A Samostie [mailto:quahog@sprint.ca] Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 12:34 PM To: Tom Kane Subject: Re: [PRR] Metroliners Dear Tom, Are you sure it was 1964-65? All of my sources maintain that the Metroliners did not enter service until 1967. Cheers, Alan Tom Kane wrote: > > Group, > > My personal rememberance is that I travelled on Metroliners from NYC to > Washington in 1964 and 1965. I still have a sketch I made of the > Metroliner, complete with Keytstone on the front. I tried to be in the > first car so I could see what the engineer saw (I always did the same on the > NYC subway and LIRR). > > Tom Kane > > -----Original Message----- > From: A Samostie [mailto:quahog@sprint.ca] > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 8:32 PM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train, and on to Metroliners > > Dear Group, > > Now, another question. It would seem that the Keystone cars were about > 20 years ahead of their time, which is perhaps the answer to my > question: Does anyone know why the Keystone design was not duplicated > on other roads, or why they were never more widely used on the PRR? > > It would seem that these cars could have provided a modern, economical > solution for short-haul passenger service on many roads. It's just a > shame that high-speed, hourly "Keystone Service" on the corridor did not > become a reality (until the Metroliners were introduced in 1967-68). > > Which raises another question I've had... I know the Metroliners were > designed for PRR, and many were delivered (and ran in test service) in > PRR lettering. But, did any of them enter REVENUE service before the > Penn Central merger? > > Cheers, > Alan Samostie > ELHS #3178 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Metroliners Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:43:20 -0400 Alan and list, It had to have been after January 8, 1967, because from December 1965 to that date I was a Sales Representative for the PRR in Baltimore and distinctly remember that the Metroliners had not yet entered service and the high platforms were not yet completed at the Baltimore station before i was transferred back to New Orleans. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Kane" To: "'A Samostie'" Cc: "PRR-Talk (E-mail)" Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 12:47 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Metroliners > Alan, > > It was probably that late, but it was certainly before the PC merger. > > Upon further reflection I believe I first traveled on the Metroliner in the > summer of 1967 (13 yrs old). They were certainly new. My parents would not > have let me travel alone before that age. > > Tom > > -----Original Message----- > From: A Samostie [mailto:quahog@sprint.ca] > Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 12:34 PM > To: Tom Kane > Subject: Re: [PRR] Metroliners > > > > Dear Tom, > > Are you sure it was 1964-65? All of my sources maintain that the > Metroliners did not enter service until 1967. > > Cheers, > Alan > > Tom Kane wrote: > > > > Group, > > > > My personal rememberance is that I travelled on Metroliners from NYC to > > Washington in 1964 and 1965. I still have a sketch I made of the > > Metroliner, complete with Keytstone on the front. I tried to be in the > > first car so I could see what the engineer saw (I always did the same on > the > > NYC subway and LIRR). > > > > Tom Kane > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: A Samostie [mailto:quahog@sprint.ca] > > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 8:32 PM > > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train, and on to Metroliners > > > > Dear Group, > > > > Now, another question. It would seem that the Keystone cars were about > > 20 years ahead of their time, which is perhaps the answer to my > > question: Does anyone know why the Keystone design was not duplicated > > on other roads, or why they were never more widely used on the PRR? > > > > It would seem that these cars could have provided a modern, economical > > solution for short-haul passenger service on many roads. It's just a > > shame that high-speed, hourly "Keystone Service" on the corridor did not > > become a reality (until the Metroliners were introduced in 1967-68). > > > > Which raises another question I've had... I know the Metroliners were > > designed for PRR, and many were delivered (and ran in test service) in > > PRR lettering. But, did any of them enter REVENUE service before the > > Penn Central merger? > > > > Cheers, > > Alan Samostie > > ELHS #3178 > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:56:57 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train, and on to Metroliners Hi Tom and others, The first revenue run of a New York-Washington Metroliner occurred on Jan. 16, 1969, almost one year after the start of Penn Central. My source is the March 1969 issue of Trains magazine. Four of the six cars in the train were club cars due to electrical problems with many of the coaches. The cars were outfitted by both GE and Westinghouse. I forget which manufacturer had the problems. Andy Hart, PRRTH&S #92 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Conan Evans" Subject: RE: Baltimore Station -was [PRR] Metroliners Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 14:06:08 -0400 Gregg, The station platforms in Baltimore's Pennsylvania Station were at track level before 1967? I never realized that this was so. Was there a Pennsy/PC program to bring the platform level up to the vestibule? Conan Evans Bristow, VA -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Gregg Mahlkov Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 1:43 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Metroliners Alan and list, It had to have been after January 8, 1967, because from December 1965 to that date I was a Sales Representative for the PRR in Baltimore and distinctly remember that the Metroliners had not yet entered service and the high platforms were not yet completed at the Baltimore station before i was transferred back to New Orleans. Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 14:20:33 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: Baltimore Station -was [PRR] Metroliners I seem to recall seeing track level, brick platforms at Baltimore only 15-20 years ago! They were not the platforms commonly in use. But apparently not all the platforms had been raised. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Conan Evans wrote: > Gregg, > > The station platforms in Baltimore's Pennsylvania Station were at track > level before 1967? I never realized that this was so. Was there a > Pennsy/PC program to bring the platform level up to the vestibule? > > Conan Evans > Bristow, VA > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Gregg > Mahlkov > Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 1:43 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Metroliners > > Alan and list, > > It had to have been after January 8, 1967, because from December 1965 to > that date I was a Sales Representative for the PRR in Baltimore and > distinctly remember that the Metroliners had not yet entered service and the > high platforms were not yet completed at the Baltimore station before i was > transferred back to New Orleans. > > Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 14:19:52 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train, and on to Metroliners > Now, another question. It would seem Perhaps 'seem' may be the operative word. Many articles, both overt Public Relations materials from manufacturers, and from supporters within the RR hierarchy AND 'articles' in the popular and fan press will stress the Wonders to Come. Sometimes the wonders come. Sometimes, the are hidden behind the 'bugs, features, and etc...'. Which may never get writ up so much. > that the Keystone cars were about 20 years ahead of their > time, which is perhaps the answer to my question: Does > anyone know why the Keystone design was not duplicated > on other roads, or why they were never more widely used > on the PRR? Perhaps the Public Relations material promised more than was delivered. (cf Acela, for a recent case.) > It would seem that these cars could have provided a modern, economical > solution for short-haul passenger service on many roads. It's just a > shame that high-speed, hourly "Keystone Service" on the corridor did not > become a reality (until the Metroliners were introduced in 1967-68). Passenger service was at risk, already. New, shiny, _experimental_ equipment may not have been the best solution. The mid '50s were (literally) littered with 'lightweight high speed wonder trains'. The Public Relations for each promised solutions. best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 14:46:01 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Metroliners A quick but not exhaustive search of my archives turned up PC >From 80, Effective July 14, 1969, The Metroliners. This is a single sheet of cardstock, 3.5 x 7.5 inches. This is a bit peculiar, as the fare table on the reverse side has fares effective September 5, 1969; and it is Form 80 3d Edition, 9/5/69. It may be that service began July 14 and this was a reprint of the timetable. The service was two roundtrips every day, plus an express M-F, only stopping at Newark. Time for the express was two hours thirty minutes; the fastest Acela Express I could spot in a recent timetable is nine minutes slower, but has additional stops. What progress in 43 years! One way coach fare NY-DC was $15.75; some expert out there can translate into 2002 dollars I am sure. A few months later PC had started issuing a folder timetable, with the marketing sloga, "The Ground Shuttle." Acela, my eye! It is also possible that the service began earlier, maybe with a single trip, and this was an expanded service. BTW buddy George O. and I were at the west portals of the North River Tunnel to photograph the very first revenue run as it saw the light of day for the first time, not counting the yard in Manhattan of course. So we may have the first photos of a Metroliner on the line on a revenue run. But I don't have a record of the date. Nobody else was around; we foolishly expected a crowd! I kinda recall it being cold, but maybe that's an illusion. The date could not have been before 1968 as I hadn't met George until March 68 or so. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 14:53:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train, and on to Metroliners Aha, Andy says it was 1/16/69! Makes sense, I KNEW it was cold trackside that day! -- John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 15:49:10 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] RE:Metroliner Andy Hart is correct. The Metroliners didn't run in revenue service until after the merger. Al Administrator PRR/PC Metroliner Training Program ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: Baltimore Station -was [PRR] Metroliners Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 15:55:58 -0400 Conan, Yes, I was based at the Baltimore station for two years in 1965 and 1966 and all the platforms were low level brick platforms. As I recall, they were about the level of the bottom step on a passenger car and somewhat crowned. Washington Union Station did not have any high platforms then either. The high platforms were all part of readying the NY-Wash line for Metroliner service. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Conan Evans" To: "TALK PRR-" Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 2:06 PM Subject: RE: Baltimore Station -was [PRR] Metroliners > Gregg, > > The station platforms in Baltimore's Pennsylvania Station were at track > level before 1967? I never realized that this was so. Was there a > Pennsy/PC program to bring the platform level up to the vestibule? > > Conan Evans > Bristow, VA > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Gregg > Mahlkov > Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 1:43 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Metroliners > > Alan and list, > > It had to have been after January 8, 1967, because from December 1965 to > that date I was a Sales Representative for the PRR in Baltimore and > distinctly remember that the Metroliners had not yet entered service and the > high platforms were not yet completed at the Baltimore station before i was > transferred back to New Orleans. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Ballast question Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 20:45:23 +0000 I grew up in Philly (Mayfair) and distinctly remember the ballast on the corridor being dark rust red in color. My question is where did the corridor ballast come from in the early to mid 50's and was it red? If not was the coloring due to brake shoe dust or lack of cleaning? Any thoughts? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:48:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Metroliner Problems List......... What types of problems did the Pennsy/PC have with the Metroliners to delay entry to service almost two years? Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:57:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Metroliner Problems On Fri, 11 Oct 2002 zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > List......... > > What types of problems did the Pennsy/PC have with the > Metroliners to delay entry to service almost two years? This was covered at the last PRRT&HS annual meeting. The one that I found amusing was "not fast enough" but I'll let someone else give a better summary. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Metroliner Problems Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 21:05:53 +0000 My understanding is that just about everything was unrealiable and the USDOT rushed their completion (suspect that an election was involved but don't know). The electricals and several of the mechanical systems were brand new technology and unproven. Since the USDOT was footing part of the bill as I recall they had the final say in much of the cars initial systems. About the only thing that proved out is the shape since the Amtrak cars duplicated it. They required extensive rebuilding and refining before they got into service. I want to think that they suffered from electrical fires but that will need confirmation by someone. There were some issues with tracking or yawing also I think. As I recall PRR wanted to go with the Pioneer type cars as they were the test cars and the USDOT opted for the unproven and untested Budd cars assuming the technology would transfer. Needless to say when the #@^% hit the fan the PRR was found to be the cause and not the politicians! (Consider this diatribe opinion until confirmed. I also recall that part of the reason the PRR went along with the program was the supposed upgrading of the corridor for 150 mph service that they couldn't afford to do themselves. > List......... > > What types of problems did the Pennsy/PC have with the > Metroliners to delay entry to service almost two years? > > Dave Hopson > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Metroliner Problems Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:17:42 -0400 One problem was that the doors would open at speed. The Budd Company hired an outside contractor (IIRC J. W. Marchetti from New England) in order to sort the problems out. I believe that Marchetti was eventually acquired by Budd. I also heard that the electronic testing equipment had paper tape for recording the status of the onboard systems related to the doors. However, the tape was apparently very expensive and the recording equipment was not switched on until AFTER the doors would open. They were stationed at Morrisville and would run from there to New Brunswick at night. Traffic was light and they could test at speed. I did get to check them out while they were laying over during the day. They started out with PRR Keystones on them but the PC logo replaced the Keystones before they were placed in service. Also, the interiors were rather "spartan" during the shakedown. They did not have any of the seat cushions or interior creature comforts installed. Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com Featuring over 10,000 IN-STOCK model railroad items 90A Jersey Avenue New Brunswick, NJ 08901 732-565-1555 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 4:48 PM Subject: [PRR] Metroliner Problems > List......... > > What types of problems did the Pennsy/PC have with the > Metroliners to delay entry to service almost two years? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Ballast question Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 15:49:04 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C27178.65FB56E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Norm, Was the color all encompassing, or was it largely confined to the space between rails? The reason I am asking is that I have been generally unsatisfied with the look of my mainline ballast, which turned out to be an interesting issue. The problem was that it looked different both from place to place but also time to time. I went back and looked closer, taking photos and really trying to figure it out. Here is what I found: 1) PRR used different ballast in different locations, and at different times. That beautiful white limestone was only used in certain places, and only during a certain time period. Other places used darker gray limestone, and even black cinder ballast (although the latter was not used on mains in my area in my time). 2) That red color in my area (perhaps not yours) was mainly confined to the area between rails, and appeared to have been derived mostly from brake shoe dust and/or surficial rust "fall off" and/or commodity leakage (like iron ore?), perhaps mostly the latter. 3) It also disappeared completely after it rained, only to reappear after it got dry again (maybe days later). I can only speculate that the limestone, being porous, absorbed some water and the color was altered, and then reappeared when the surface moisture was gone. It did not wash away, though, as tracks that were rained on and did not have trains pass over them got red again. There were a number of these in my area. 4) The ballast PRR used changed many times over the years. My friends tell me that cinder ballast was more popular "back when". Maybe PRR used cinder from the steel industry in some places? That has a red tinge. I also remember thinking that there were red "pieces" in the ballast when I was younger, until I looked at the individual "rocks". I noticed that those tracks in the iron ore transport corridor had a significant proportion of iron ore pellets and small red rocks (maybe iron content, maybe not, maybe feldspar, maybe reddish sandstone?) in the ballast. Again, I can only speculate that hoppers leaked iron ore (or whatever) into the ballast as the train moved along. And I can say that I do remember a LOT of leakage from the G38's with the poke holes! The "between the rails" thing gives every appearance of being some kind of dust fallout, as it does not evenly color the entire ballast contour, but does stand out in person and in photos (in dry weather!). I think I may try to simulate this with a kind of light overspray after I get the ballast color right (I may have to come back and dark wash that, too. I am experimenting now). I am still not satisfied with my mains. But my secondaries have that red tinge and look right to me. I am using Arizona Rock & Mineral cinder ballast, which does have small red particles in it. Looks gooooood. Best of luck! Elden - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C27178.65FB56E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Ballast question

Norm,  Was the color all encompassing, or was it = largely confined to the space between rails?  The reason I am = asking is that I have been generally unsatisfied with the look of my = mainline ballast, which turned out to be an interesting issue.  = The problem was that it looked different both from place to place but = also time to time.  I went back and looked closer, taking photos = and really trying to figure it out.  Here is what I = found:

1)  PRR used different ballast in different = locations, and at different times.  That beautiful white limestone = was only used in certain places, and only during a certain time = period.  Other places used darker gray limestone, and even black = cinder ballast (although the latter was not used on mains in my area in = my time).

2)  That red color in my area (perhaps not = yours) was mainly confined to the area between rails, and appeared to = have been derived mostly from brake shoe dust and/or surficial rust = "fall off" and/or commodity leakage (like iron ore?), perhaps = mostly the latter.

3)  It also disappeared completely after it = rained, only to reappear after it got dry again (maybe days = later).  I can only speculate that the limestone, being porous, = absorbed some water and the color was altered, and then reappeared when = the surface moisture was gone.  It did not wash away, though, as = tracks that were rained on and did not have trains pass over them got = red again.  There were a number of these in my area.

4)  The ballast PRR used changed many times over = the years.  My friends tell me that cinder ballast was more = popular "back when".  Maybe PRR used cinder from the = steel industry in some places?  That has a red tinge.  I also = remember thinking that there were red "pieces" in the ballast = when I was younger, until I looked at the individual = "rocks".  I noticed that those tracks in the iron ore = transport corridor had a significant proportion of iron ore pellets and = small red rocks (maybe iron content, maybe not, maybe feldspar, maybe = reddish sandstone?) in the ballast.  Again, I can only speculate = that hoppers leaked iron ore (or whatever) into the ballast as the = train moved along.  And I can say that I do remember a LOT of = leakage from the G38's with the poke holes!

The "between the rails" thing gives every = appearance of being some kind of dust fallout, as it does not evenly = color the entire ballast contour, but does stand out in person and in = photos (in dry weather!).  I think I may try to simulate this with = a kind of light overspray after I get the ballast color right (I may = have to come back and dark wash that, too.  I am experimenting = now).

I am still not satisfied with my mains.  But my = secondaries have that red tinge and look right to me.  I am using = Arizona Rock & Mineral cinder ballast, which does have small red = particles in it.  Looks gooooood.

Best of luck!
Elden

-

------_=_NextPart_001_01C27178.65FB56E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 21:19:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Metroliners --part1_8.2e205761.2ad8d2a3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I haven't found which book it is in that shows the PRR cars being tested by Budd on the Reading Co.'s Bethelehem Br.. Believe it was the summer of 66. Will post the book info. when I find it. Evan Leisey --part1_8.2e205761.2ad8d2a3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  I haven't found which book it is in that shows the PRR cars being tested by Budd on the Reading Co.'s Bethelehem Br..  Believe it was the summer of 66.  Will post the book info. when I find it.

 Evan Leisey
--part1_8.2e205761.2ad8d2a3_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 21:27:11 EDT Subject: [PRR] Metroliners --part1_198.ece5f67.2ad8d46f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Found it. 66 is way off as the cars were ordered by the PRR but delivered to the Penn Central. The cars in the photo were being tested during Pennsy's last summer and are in full Pennsy dress. Were they delivered in Pennsy garb? Evan Leisey --part1_198.ece5f67.2ad8d46f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Found it.  66 is way off as the cars were ordered by the PRR but delivered to the Penn Central.  The cars in the photo were being tested during Pennsy's last summer and are in full Pennsy dress.  Were they delivered in Pennsy garb?

 Evan Leisey --part1_198.ece5f67.2ad8d46f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 22:57:09 -0300 From: A Samostie Subject: Re: [PRR] Metroliner Problems Dear Group, My understanding is that the Metroliners' electrical, propulsion, and HVAC systems were unreliable, particularly in snow or cold weather. It seems that snow caused some of the underbody-mounted resistors to short out, which is why most of the cars were rebuilt with those ugly roof shrouds to house electrical components. There is an interesting photo of a GG1 hauling a crippled Metroliner in Zimmerman's "The Remarkable GG1." I'm only aware of one fire, which occurred after the Metroliners were demoted to local service between Philadelphia and Harrisburg (so sad). I think the fire may have been the result of a grade crossing accident, though. The photo appeared in Trains magazine sometime in the early 1980s. I only rode a "real" Metroliner once, in 1977. The cars were barely 10 years old at this time, but did not seem well maintained; the ride quality was quite poor, and they lurched badly in curves and over track irregularities. By 1977, Amtrak had already changed the brand name to "Metroliner Service" and had substituted locomotive-hauled Amfleet trains for "real" Metroliners on most departures. I was disappointed to see Amfleet cars waiting at the platform for our departure from New York... including an ancient PRR GG1 that they hadn't even bothered to repaint. We now know it as "Pennsylvania" GG1 #4935! And now you know the rest of the story. (With apologies to Paul Harvey). Cheers, Alan Samostie ELHS #3178 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 22:33:54 EDT Subject: Re: Baltimore Station -was [PRR] Metroliners --part1_128.190319f3.2ad8e412_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The two Baltimore platforms that are high level were built by Amtrak when the physical plant was revised and upgraded -- about 10 (?) years ago. Some portions of the low-level brick platforms are still visible at the southern end of the station plant, and even more portions of the low-level brick platforms can be found under the high-level platforms! The platforms for tracks 1-3 are still low-level. The platform along track 1 (closest to the station building) was rebuilt and resurfaced with concrete, and now serves the MTA Penn station light rail spur. Only one platform retains its original appearance -- the one between tracks 2 and 3. --part1_128.190319f3.2ad8e412_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The two Baltimore platforms that are high level were built by Amtrak when the physical plant was revised and upgraded -- about 10 (?) years ago.  Some portions of the low-level brick platforms are still visible at the southern end of the station plant, and even more portions of the low-level brick platforms can be found under the high-level platforms!  The platforms for tracks 1-3 are still low-level.  The platform along track 1 (closest to the station building) was rebuilt and resurfaced with concrete, and now serves the MTA Penn station light rail spur.  Only one platform retains its original appearance -- the one between tracks 2 and 3. --part1_128.190319f3.2ad8e412_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 22:36:54 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Ballast question --part1_1ac.a1cca88.2ad8e4c6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The PRR, like most railroads, used ballast extracted from local quarries. Therein lies the reason why the color was never uniform across the whole railroad. --part1_1ac.a1cca88.2ad8e4c6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The PRR, like most railroads, used ballast extracted from local quarries.  Therein lies the reason why the color was never uniform across the whole railroad. --part1_1ac.a1cca88.2ad8e4c6_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 22:51:12 -0400 From: dwsnrhs@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train In a message dated 10/10/2002 12:37:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, crashtech@chartermi.net writes: > > At least 2 of the Keystone Tubular train cars are in Dinner Train Service in > Walled Lake, Michigan, on Coe Rail. (not Conrail) I believe the power car > is on the property, but I'm not sure. The shape of the cars are distinctive > and not likely to be confused with anything else. I was told, but could not > verify, that as old as they were they were generally electrically compatable > with the early Amfleet coaches. > > The interiors were vandelized in the '80's when the all of the cars were > stored at the CN former Grant Truck RR yard in Pontiac, MI., right next to a > public road. (Nice play!!) I have slides or photos somewhere if anyone is > interested. Maybe I could post them somehow. (I can scan them in the.jpg > format.) > > Julian Wolfe, when he was head of SEMTA, (SouthEastern Michigan > Transportation Authority) Rail Operations, purchased the train to ultimately > be rebuild for rail commuter operations from Detroit to Pontiac, MI. The > service never expanded beyond three round trips and was > ultimately > discontinued. I can't recall the year. > > All the best to you and yours Weldon PART TWO OF AN EARLIER REPLY TO LIST: The Keystone cars were, for a time, also stored unassembled-as-a-unit, in the Altoona, PA yards. Some vandalism occurred there also, although some could have occured earlier elsewhere. I have photographed some of that equipment at that stage of it's inactivity. Sorry to see it end up that way. I knew it went west from Altoona but lost track of it, pardon the pun. It was a great train in it's prime. Would be interested in knowing date it was removed from service and it's storage history prior to sale if anyone knows. Dave Seidel, Altoona PA Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS PRRT&HS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWSNRHS@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 22:54:59 EDT Subject: [PRR] TUBULAR TRAIN AND METROLINER Greetings to list: The PENNSY Magazine, July-August 1956 issue, has a complete story on the Tubular Train. The "tubular" shape was an effort to build passenger cars at lower cost. To do this, the center sill was eliminated. Stainless steel was the material of choice. The "engineers found that the tubular car body itself, reinforced by girder-type side construction, would provide the strength needed to meet the safety standards of"..AAR. "Boarding the train,the passenger steps into a vestibule that is of standard height, permitting normal use at high level station platforms. He then enters a smoking section with 14 lounge seats. A walk down three steps, which have illuminated hand rails, brings him to the main coach section, with 56 reclining seats. At the other end, three steps lead up to a section with 12 more reclining seats, a water cooler, and toilets for men and women." The article goes on to describe appointments, and amenities, and "On each bulkhead is a photo-mural of a scene in one of the cities served by the PRR. Twenty-eight cities are represented in the seven cars". The power car also contained a kitchen and simple meals were to be distributed to passengers at their seats. As I recall, upholstery was a pastel shade...between tan/brown/coral, and in a waffle checkerboard pattern, and pleasing to the eye. "Under the new schedule, the Tubular Train leaves Washington at 7 AM as the Morning Keystone and arrives in New York at 10:55 AM. As the Midday Keystone, it leaves New York at 11:30 AM and arrives at Washington at 3:25 PM. As the Evening Keystone, it leaves Washington at 6 PM and arrives at New York at 10:15 PM. As the Midnight Keystone it leaves New York at 11:10 PM and arrives at Washington at 3:15 AM." As an aside, during 1957-1960, while in the USAF, I traveled back and forth regularly between Altoona and New York. On Sunday evenings, the eastbound (Duquesne or Juniata)required that I change trains at 30th Street Station (usually went through North Philadelphia). The connecting train came from Washington. The headend equipment was P-70 or P-85 coach equipment, but the rear of the train had the Tubular Train equipment which I elected to ride in. A very unique experience. At high-level station platforms, all you saw were peoples ankles, but the trip was very pleasant. RE: METROLINERS: The PENNSY magaaine of January 1, 1968 details a test of the new "high speed" equipment at 164 mph. One month to go till MERGER DAY. Dave Seidel, Altoona, PA Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS PRRT&HS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 23:24:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] TUBULAR TRAIN AND METROLINER In a message dated 10/11/02 10:04:11 PM, DWSNRHS@aol.com writes: << The PENNSY Magazine, July-August 1956 issue, has a complete story on the Tubular Train. The "tubular" shape was an effort to build passenger cars at lower cost. To do this, the center sill was eliminated. Stainless steel was the material of choice. The "engineers found that the tubular car body itself, reinforced by girder-type side construction, would provide the strength needed to meet the safety standards of"..AAR. "Boarding the train,the passenger steps into a vestibule that is of standard height, permitting normal use at high level station platforms. He then enters a smoking section with 14 lounge seats. A walk down three steps, which have illuminated hand rails, brings him to the main coach section, with 56 reclining seats. At the other end, three steps lead up to a section with 12 more reclining seats, a water cooler, and toilets for men and women." >> This is much more as I remember it. I lived in NYC and went to school in Philadelphia from 1956 to 1960 and remember these tubular trains very well. I remember the platform on either end and the step down section in the middle. But, I also remember, not mentioned here, a petition at the steps on either end and on both sides the separated the higher section from the lower. I recall thick pieces of glass that blocked noise (and cigarette smoke?) but not light or vision. I also seem to remember that the were things etched on the glass but don't remember what they were. Of course, the last time I expressed my recollections of this list, a number of you very graciously and kindly, pointed out the possible error of my memory. Here, though, I remember the time frame beginning before 1960 rather than after. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Ballast question Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 01:03:46 -0400 I would think the ballast was beat to hell from the wartime traffic that left the PRR with its surmountable debt for being a major carrier of materials during WWII. I do know the PRR West Chester Branch has a quarry on line at Glen Mills, PA. It is just past Wawa. The quarry is used today by SEPTA. Trains run at night time so they do not conflict with daytime commuter trains of the SEPTA R3 line. Usually hopper cars sit on the siding just north of Glen Mills Road. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 4:45 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Ballast question I grew up in Philly (Mayfair) and distinctly remember the ballast on the corridor being dark rust red in color. My question is where did the corridor ballast come from in the early to mid 50's and was it red? If not was the coloring due to brake shoe dust or lack of cleaning? Any thoughts? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 07:26:54 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] Metroliners When the cars were delivered in full PRR dress including "KEYSTONES" they were stored on the Reading Co's siding at Jenkintown across from JENKIN tower. They tested be between Jenkin and the Junction with the NY Short Line at Neshaminy Falls. RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 07:32:09 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] Tubular Train The cars were also stored at ANZON in Jersey City and were visable from the NJTKP extention. I believe the building is near where the light rail service facility is today. dwsnrhs@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 10/10/2002 12:37:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, crashtech@chartermi.net writes: > > > > > At least 2 of the Keystone Tubular train cars are in Dinner Train Service in > > Walled Lake, Michigan, on Coe Rail. (not Conrail) I believe the power car > > is on the property, but I'm not sure. The shape of the cars are distinctive > > and not likely to be confused with anything else. I was told, but could not > > verify, that as old as they were they were generally electrically compatable > > with the early Amfleet coaches. > > > > The interiors were vandelized in the '80's when the all of the cars were > > stored at the CN former Grant Truck RR yard in Pontiac, MI., right next to a > > public road. (Nice play!!) I have slides or photos somewhere if anyone is > > interested. Maybe I could post them somehow. (I can scan them in the.jpg > > format.) > > > > Julian Wolfe, when he was head of SEMTA, (SouthEastern Michigan > > Transportation Authority) Rail Operations, purchased the train to ultimately > > be rebuild for rail commuter operations from Detroit to Pontiac, MI. The > > service never expanded beyond three round trips and was > > ultimately > > discontinued. I can't recall the year. > > > > All the best to you and yours Weldon > > PART TWO OF AN EARLIER REPLY TO LIST: The Keystone cars were, for a time, also stored unassembled-as-a-unit, in the Altoona, PA yards. Some vandalism occurred there also, although some could have occured earlier elsewhere. I have photographed some of that equipment at that stage of it's inactivity. Sorry to see it end up that way. I knew it went west from Altoona but lost track of it, pardon the pun. It was a great train in it's prime. Would be interested in knowing date it was removed from service and it's storage history prior to sale if anyone knows. > > Dave Seidel, Altoona PA > Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS > PRRT&HS > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 07:35:12 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] TUBULAR TRAIN AND METROLINER When I was at Penn State and the Aerotrain was running you could board the Aerotrain in Lewistown and make a cross platform connection at 30th Street to the Keystone to NYP. I did it once. DWSNRHS@aol.com wrote: > > Greetings to list: > > The PENNSY Magazine, July-August 1956 issue, has a complete story on the > Tubular Train. The "tubular" shape was an effort to build passenger cars at > lower cost. To do this, the center sill was eliminated. Stainless steel was > the material of choice. The "engineers found that the tubular car body > itself, reinforced by girder-type side construction, would provide the > strength needed to meet the safety standards of"..AAR. "Boarding the > train,the passenger steps into a vestibule that is of standard height, > permitting normal use at high level station platforms. He then enters a > smoking section with 14 lounge seats. A walk down three steps, which have > illuminated hand rails, brings him to the main coach section, with 56 > reclining seats. At the other end, three steps lead up to a section with 12 > more reclining seats, a water cooler, and toilets for men and women." > > The article goes on to describe appointments, and amenities, and "On each > bulkhead is a photo-mural of a scene in one of the cities served by the PRR. > Twenty-eight cities are represented in the seven cars". The power car also > contained a kitchen and simple meals were to be distributed to passengers at > their seats. As I recall, upholstery was a pastel shade...between > tan/brown/coral, and in a waffle checkerboard pattern, and pleasing to the > eye. > > "Under the new schedule, the Tubular Train leaves Washington at 7 AM as the > Morning Keystone and arrives in New York at 10:55 AM. As the Midday Keystone, > it leaves New York at 11:30 AM and arrives at Washington at 3:25 PM. As the > Evening Keystone, it leaves Washington at 6 PM and arrives at New York at > 10:15 PM. As the Midnight Keystone it leaves New York at 11:10 PM and arrives > at Washington at 3:15 AM." > > As an aside, during 1957-1960, while in the USAF, I traveled back and forth > regularly between Altoona and New York. On Sunday evenings, the eastbound > (Duquesne or Juniata)required that I change trains at 30th Street Station > (usually went through North Philadelphia). The connecting train came from > Washington. The headend equipment was P-70 or P-85 coach equipment, but the > rear of the train had the Tubular Train equipment which I elected to ride in. > A very unique experience. At high-level station platforms, all you saw were > peoples ankles, but the trip was very pleasant. > > RE: METROLINERS: The PENNSY magaaine of January 1, 1968 details a test of > the new "high speed" equipment at 164 mph. One month to go till MERGER DAY. > > Dave Seidel, Altoona, PA > Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS > PRRT&HS > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 07:38:15 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] TUBULAR TRAIN AND METROLINER Juniata Terminal's "Warrior Ridge" will use the same etched glass partition technique to separate the 24 seats in booths from the rest of the parlor, lounge area. The etched glass has a T-1 and an E8 inside of a Keystone. Not installed, yet but coming soon. LAMAassoc@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 10/11/02 10:04:11 PM, DWSNRHS@aol.com writes: > > << > The PENNSY Magazine, July-August 1956 issue, has a complete story on the > Tubular Train. The "tubular" shape was an effort to build passenger cars at > lower cost. To do this, the center sill was eliminated. Stainless steel was > the material of choice. The "engineers found that the tubular car body > itself, reinforced by girder-type side construction, would provide the > strength needed to meet the safety standards of"..AAR. "Boarding the > train,the passenger steps into a vestibule that is of standard height, > permitting normal use at high level station platforms. He then enters a > smoking section with 14 lounge seats. A walk down three steps, which have > illuminated hand rails, brings him to the main coach section, with 56 > reclining seats. At the other end, three steps lead up to a section with 12 > more reclining seats, a water cooler, and toilets for men and women." >> > > This is much more as I remember it. I lived in NYC and went to school in > Philadelphia from 1956 to 1960 and remember these tubular trains very well. I > remember the platform on either end and the step down section in the middle. > > But, I also remember, not mentioned here, a petition at the steps on either > end and on both sides the separated the higher section from the lower. I > recall thick pieces of glass that blocked noise (and cigarette smoke?) but > not light or vision. I also seem to remember that the were things etched on > the glass but don't remember what they were. > > Of course, the last time I expressed my recollections of this list, a number > of you very graciously and kindly, pointed out the possible error of my > memory. > > Here, though, I remember the time frame beginning before 1960 rather than > after. > > Regards, Marty > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 11:51:39 -0400 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: RE: Baltimore Station -was [PRR] Metroliners This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_K8ARxLjKawywm7XkknTFYw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT The high level platforms between 7 and 6 tracks were first installed by the PRR/PC as part of the Metroliner Program. Also upgraded at this time were platforms in Washington and Wilmington, Prior to the Metroliner Program, there were no hi level platforms south of Philadelphia. JW -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 10:34 PM To: mahlkov@gtcom.net; cevans@onlinesecurities.net; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: Baltimore Station -was [PRR] Metroliners The two Baltimore platforms that are high level were built by Amtrak when the physical plant was revised and upgraded -- about 10 (?) years ago. Some portions of the low-level brick platforms are still visible at the southern end of the station plant, and even more portions of the low-level brick platforms can be found under the high-level platforms! The platforms for tracks 1-3 are still low-level. The platform along track 1 (closest to the station building) was rebuilt and resurfaced with concrete, and now serves the MTA Penn station light rail spur. Only one platform retains its original appearance -- the one between tracks 2 and 3. --Boundary_(ID_K8ARxLjKawywm7XkknTFYw) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
The high level platforms between 7 and 6 tracks were first installed by the PRR/PC as part of the Metroliner Program. Also upgraded at this time were platforms in Washington and Wilmington, Prior to the Metroliner Program, there were no hi level platforms south of Philadelphia.
 
JW
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Chrisandbelton2@aol.com
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 10:34 PM
To: mahlkov@gtcom.net; cevans@onlinesecurities.net; prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: Baltimore Station -was [PRR] Metroliners

The two Baltimore platforms that are high level were built by Amtrak when the physical plant was revised and upgraded -- about 10 (?) years ago.  Some portions of the low-level brick platforms are still visible at the southern end of the station plant, and even more portions of the low-level brick platforms can be found under the high-level platforms!  The platforms for tracks 1-3 are still low-level.  The platform along track 1 (closest to the station building) was rebuilt and resurfaced with concrete, and now serves the MTA Penn station light rail spur.  Only one platform retains its original appearance -- the one between tracks 2 and 3.
--Boundary_(ID_K8ARxLjKawywm7XkknTFYw)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 13:32:48 EDT Subject: Re: Baltimore Station -was [PRR] Metroliners --part1_cf.1e87c177.2ad9b6c0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't remember seeing any high level platforms at Wilmington or Baltimore until well into the Amtrak era. --part1_cf.1e87c177.2ad9b6c0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't remember seeing any high level platforms at Wilmington or Baltimore until well into the Amtrak era. --part1_cf.1e87c177.2ad9b6c0_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 14:04:19 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: CUT Tower A Here's a better answer to Bob Fredland's question about what happened to the interlocking machine, courtesy of CRRC President Pat Rose. Basically, the Cincinnati Railroad Club now sets up chairs for its meetings in the large floor space vacated. Remember, Tower A is open to the public -- see CRRC's website at http://www.cincinnatirrclub.org/ for current hours. In a message dated 10/11/02 8:51:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Patrick.Rose@ae.ge.com writes: > Rick, > The machine was a Union Switch & Signal Model 14 Electo-Pneumatic > Interlocker. It operated on 24VDC with compressed air (made by the largest > steam powered air compressors you've ever seen) powering the switch motors. > It occupied the majority of the center of the main room in Tower A and was > a little longer than the model board. We have the approximate space it > occupied outlined on the floor in black tile. The balance of the floor is > cinnamon colored to emulate the varnished cork floor that was once there. > We were told by former CUT employees that the B&O removed the machine > sometime in 1973 for spare parts for similar machines around their system. > The long desk was, in fact, the train director's desk. Whether or not > it's the worlds longest is yet to be determined but it never seemed longer > than when we had to place and cut the single (yes, single) piece of desktop > linoleum on it. You can bet we measured several times before cutting. In > fact, the roll sat up there for almost a year before we screwed up the > courage to take a knife to it. > We do hope someday to animate the model board realistically. We > believe we know how to do it, it'll just take time and money. > Thanks > Patrick Rose > CRRC > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RickTipton@aol.com [mailto:RickTipton@aol.com] >> Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 11:31 PM >> To: PRR@yahoogroups.com; PennsyWest@egroups.com; PRRSignaling@onelist.com; >> PRR@egroups.com >> Cc: Patrick.Rose@ae.ge.com; rb@woh.rr.com; rbailey@oki.org >> Subject: CUT Tower A >> >> >> In a message dated 9/25/02 4:48:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >> PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: >> >> >> >>> Message: 5 >>> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:23:44 -0700 (PDT) >>> From: ROBT FREDLAND >>> Subject: Re: Cincinnati Union Terminal in 2004 >>> >>> Messr's. Wallis and Tipton, >>> >>> This all is charming. What happened to the interlocking machine, >>> however? >>> >>> Bob Fredland >>> >> > Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please) Wolf Penn Station 5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive Prospect, KY 40059-9197 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Home Selling? Try Us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/MVfIAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 14:04:19 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: CUT Tower A --part1_1bf.10b6de55.2ad9be23_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's a better answer to Bob Fredland's question about what happened to the interlocking machine, courtesy of CRRC President Pat Rose. Basically, the Cincinnati Railroad Club now sets up chairs for its meetings in the large floor space vacated. Remember, Tower A is open to the public -- see CRRC's website at http://www.cincinnatirrclub.org/ for current hours. In a message dated 10/11/02 8:51:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Patrick.Rose@ae.ge.com writes: > Rick, > The machine was a Union Switch & Signal Model 14 Electo-Pneumatic > Interlocker. It operated on 24VDC with compressed air (made by the largest > steam powered air compressors you've ever seen) powering the switch motors. > It occupied the majority of the center of the main room in Tower A and was > a little longer than the model board. We have the approximate space it > occupied outlined on the floor in black tile. The balance of the floor is > cinnamon colored to emulate the varnished cork floor that was once there. > We were told by former CUT employees that the B&O removed the machine > sometime in 1973 for spare parts for similar machines around their system. > The long desk was, in fact, the train director's desk. Whether or not > it's the worlds longest is yet to be determined but it never seemed longer > than when we had to place and cut the single (yes, single) piece of desktop > linoleum on it. You can bet we measured several times before cutting. In > fact, the roll sat up there for almost a year before we screwed up the > courage to take a knife to it. > We do hope someday to animate the model board realistically. We > believe we know how to do it, it'll just take time and money. > Thanks > Patrick Rose > CRRC > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RickTipton@aol.com [mailto:RickTipton@aol.com] >> Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 11:31 PM >> To: PRR@yahoogroups.com; PennsyWest@egroups.com; PRRSignaling@onelist.com; >> PRR@egroups.com >> Cc: Patrick.Rose@ae.ge.com; rb@woh.rr.com; rbailey@oki.org >> Subject: CUT Tower A >> >> >> In a message dated 9/25/02 4:48:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >> PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: >> >> >> >>> Message: 5 >>> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:23:44 -0700 (PDT) >>> From: ROBT FREDLAND >>> Subject: Re: Cincinnati Union Terminal in 2004 >>> >>> Messr's. Wallis and Tipton, >>> >>> This all is charming. What happened to the interlocking machine, >>> however? >>> >>> Bob Fredland >>> >> > Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please) Wolf Penn Station 5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive Prospect, KY 40059-9197 --part1_1bf.10b6de55.2ad9be23_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's a better answer to Bob Fredland's question about what happened to the interlocking machine, courtesy of CRRC President Pat Rose.  Basically, the Cincinnati Railroad Club now sets up chairs for its meetings in the large floor space vacated.

Remember, Tower A is open to the public -- see CRRC's website at http://www.cincinnatirrclub.org/ for current hours.

In a message dated 10/11/02 8:51:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Patrick.Rose@ae.ge.com writes:


Rick,
    The machine was a Union Switch & Signal Model 14 Electo-Pneumatic Interlocker.  It operated on 24VDC with compressed air (made by the largest steam powered air compressors you've ever seen) powering the switch motors.  It occupied the majority of the center of the main room in Tower A and was a little longer than the model board.  We have the approximate space it occupied outlined on the floor in black tile.  The balance of the floor is cinnamon colored to emulate the varnished cork floor that was once there.  We were told by former CUT employees that the B&O removed the machine sometime in 1973 for spare parts for similar machines around their system.
    The long desk was, in fact, the train director's desk.  Whether or not it's the worlds longest is yet to be determined but it never seemed longer than when we had to place and cut the single (yes, single) piece of desktop linoleum on it.  You can bet we measured several times before cutting.  In fact, the roll sat up there for almost a year before we screwed up the courage to take a knife to it.
    We do hope someday to animate the model board realistically.  We believe we know how to do it, it'll just take time and money.
Thanks
Patrick Rose
CRRC

-----Original Message-----
From: RickTipton@aol.com [mailto:RickTipton@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 11:31 PM
To: PRR@yahoogroups.com; PennsyWest@egroups.com; PRRSignaling@onelist.com; PRR@egroups.com
Cc: Patrick.Rose@ae.ge.com; rb@woh.rr.com; rbailey@oki.org
Subject: CUT Tower A


In a message dated 9/25/02 4:48:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 5
   Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:23:44 -0700 (PDT)
   From: ROBT FREDLAND <bobaud@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Cincinnati Union Terminal in 2004

Messr's. Wallis and Tipton,

  This all is charming. What happened to the interlocking machine, however?

Bob Fredland





Rick Tipton
Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana.
Email RickTipton@aol.com
Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please)
Wolf Penn Station
5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive
Prospect, KY 40059-9197 --part1_1bf.10b6de55.2ad9be23_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 20:04:17 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Calling for Online PRR Layouts From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" I've been reviewing the Layouts page on Keystone Crossings. I've removed some dead links and updated some others. If your Pennsy layout is online and is not on the Layouts page, please send me the URL. If your layout substantially represents actual PRR locations it will be considered for inclusion in the PRR Virtual Layout. I also offer free layout web site hosting for substantial layouts (not a 4' by 8' sheet of plywood with an oval of track). Contact me if you are interested in this. Those whose layouts are already hosted at my server, please feel free to contact me with updates, additional photos, etc. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 21:12:52 -0400 From: Alex Charyna Subject: [PRR] Steep PRR Grades Just bought Triumph III. Reading through it, it said that the 3.1% grade at St. Clair is the third steepest on the entire system. What were the other two? thanks -alex ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 21:35:05 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Steep PRR Grades From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" on 10/12/02 9:12 PM, Alex Charyna at alex@arclyte.com wrote: > Just bought Triumph III. > > Reading through it, it said that the 3.1% grade at St. Clair is the > third steepest on the entire system. > What were the other two? > I don't have the data, or know the location first hand, but what about Madison Hill? What about Keating Summit? I know/think it was steeper than the eastern slope/Horseshoe Curve area. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 21:38:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Steep PRR Grades --part1_131.155c7e69.2ada28b2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One of the others is in Indiana were the grade is just under 6%. This was on the list a few weeks back in a question about the two modified EMD SD-7's on the Pennsy. Just after leaving North Vernon, Indiana the line headed down a nearly 6% grade to the Ohio River then on to Madison, Indiana. In steam days, the operating procedure was to the run the locos backwards down the grade to keep water over the crown sheet. Evan Leisey --part1_131.155c7e69.2ada28b2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One of the others is in Indiana were the grade is just under 6%.  This was on the list a few weeks back in a question about the two modified EMD SD-7's on the Pennsy.  Just after leaving North Vernon, Indiana the line headed down a nearly 6% grade to the Ohio River then on to Madison, Indiana.  In steam days,  the operating procedure was to the run the locos backwards down the grade to keep water over the crown sheet.

Evan Leisey --part1_131.155c7e69.2ada28b2_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 21:40:00 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Steep PRR Grades In a message dated 10/12/02 8:21:26 PM, alex@arclyte.com writes: << Reading through it, it said that the 3.1% grade at St. Clair is the third steepest on the entire system. What were the other two? >> There was, as I recall, a switchback at Foxbourogh, in PA that was very steep. I don't remember what it was used for (access to one or more mines?) or during what years. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 23:19:56 -0400 From: Christopher Hoess Subject: Re: [PRR] Steep PRR Grades On Sat, Oct 12, 2002 at 09:40:00PM -0400, LAMAassoc@aol.com wrote: > > There was, as I recall, a switchback at Foxbourogh, in PA that was very > steep. I don't remember what it was used for (access to one or more mines?) > or during what years. I think the Foxburg switchback was on the B&O (former P&W narrow gauge). -- Chris Hoess ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 02:41:52 -0400 From: Zak Subject: [PRR] GEEP MU query (off-PRR) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_QosBQuI/PO6XyOlXn+3y6Q) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi, List, This is probably a dumb question, but in real life could a (for example) GP7 with the "torpedo tubes" run back-to-back with another GP7 without "TTs", to provide both passenger and freight service? I realize "it would be a hellovaway to run a railroad", but I'm just wondering if it could be done. In theory - mine at least - during passenger service, the "TTs" could provide the steam generation; while in freight service, both GEEPs would have the power to move a couple or three cars. As I say, this is totally off the PRR *Mainline*, so if anyone cares to reply, please do so off-line. Zak --Boundary_(ID_QosBQuI/PO6XyOlXn+3y6Q) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Hi, List,
 
This is probably a dumb question, but in real life could a  (for example) GP7 with the "torpedo tubes" run back-to-back with another GP7 without "TTs", to provide both passenger and freight service?
 
I realize "it would be a hellovaway to run a railroad", but I'm just wondering if it could be done.
 
In theory - mine at least - during passenger service, the "TTs" could provide the steam generation; while in freight service, both  GEEPs would have the power to move a couple or three cars.
 
As I say, this is totally off the PRR *Mainline*, so if anyone cares to reply, please do so off-line.
 
Zak
--Boundary_(ID_QosBQuI/PO6XyOlXn+3y6Q)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 11:49:18 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] GEEP MU query (off-PRR) In a message dated 10/13/02 1:57:33 AM Central Daylight Time, casimer.zakrzewski@us.army.mil writes: << This is probably a dumb question, but in real life could a (for example) GP7 with the "torpedo tubes" run back-to-back with another GP7 without "TTs", to provide both passenger and freight service? I realize "it would be a hellovaway to run a railroad", but I'm just wondering if it could be done. In theory - mine at least - during passenger service, the "TTs" could provide the steam generation; while in freight service, both GEEPs would have the power to move a couple or three cars. >> 1. Very good question, but why discuss offline? There are a lot of issues which your question raises which it would be helpful to have more than one input: e.g., which units have MU capability, steam generators, MU at both ends, torpedo tubes, steam lines, etc. 2. I believe most of the steam-generator-equipped Geeps (and Alco RS-3's) had MU capability and I assume could also operate elephant-style as well as back-to-back. Am I right, list? 3. Question: do the non steam generator equipped roadswitchers have steam lines or controls to operate a steam generator in a second unit? This would tell you whether your two-unit set could be operated on a passenger train. 4. I believe most of the "passenger" Geeps had MU capability so use in freight lashups shouldn't be a problem. 5. I look to the list for help, but I believe a minority of the passenger geeps had the torpedo tubes. Most did not. 6. You mention a lashup pulling a couple or three cars. A single passenger Geep could pull 8 loaded cars up Cajon Pass's 2.1% grade, much less what it could do on level ground. Another question would be whether an RS-3/GP7 lashup could operate a passenger train. As I said, a good and interesting question. I have a question for Lines Westers in the Chicago area. Did the passenger Geeps ever run on the "bottle" train ? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 12:57:34 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] GEEP MU query (off-PRR) --part1_3f.1349a3e4.2adafffe_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would love to here more about the passenger Geeps with TT myself, although the ones I have are B&O :) I wasn't even aware the PRR had any ? I know the B&O ran the Geeps with TT for passenger service, but they also ran freight when needed, so I assume the same would be true of the PRR. I just got a set of Erie Builts, and was surprised to find they ran passenger trains and freights! SO I now have another set of passenger engines, but have a Geep for passenger service would be nice! Who makes this engine in passenger service? or what would be different about it so far as a model? Now for the part that's more inline with this topic! I remember reading before that the PRR did not like to mix engines, and preferred to have MU's of the same make of engine. SO this would probably mean no RS units with a GP :( BUT I dont remember if that mean not mixing a GP7 with a GP9, or if it was good enough that both were Geeps! Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period PRRT&HS #7136 List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo --part1_3f.1349a3e4.2adafffe_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would love to here more about the passenger Geeps with TT myself, although the ones I have are B&O :)  I wasn't even aware the PRR had any ?  I know the B&O ran the Geeps with TT for passenger service, but they also ran freight when needed, so I assume the same would be true of the PRR.  

I just got a set of Erie Builts, and was surprised to find they ran passenger trains and freights!  SO I now have another set of passenger engines, but have a Geep for passenger service would be nice! Who makes this engine in passenger service? or what would be different about it so far as a model?

Now for the part that's more inline with this topic!
I remember reading before that the PRR did not like to mix engines, and preferred to have MU's of the same make of engine. SO this would probably mean no RS units with a GP :(  BUT I dont remember if that mean not mixing a GP7 with a GP9, or if it was good enough that both were Geeps!


Mike Schock
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period
PRRT&HS  #7136
List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo
--part1_3f.1349a3e4.2adafffe_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 14:19:35 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] GEEP MU query (off-PRR) >> ... in real life could a (for example) GP7 with the >> "torpedo tubes" run back-to-back with another GP7 without >> "TTs", to provide both passenger and freight service? Sure. With possible constraints. In a general sense there is a AAR (?) standard for the MU circuits, that allows anything meeting the standard to MU. There are constraints: The control circuitry allows both to share the load (within each unit): however, if the GEARING is different, the lowest speed gearing sets the speed limit for the set. The 'torpedo tubes' are relocated air tanks: make no difference to MU'ing. >> I realize "it would be a hellovaway to run a railroad", but >> I'm just wondering if it could be done. >> In theory - mine at least - during passenger service, the >>"TTs" could provide the steam generation; Torpedo tubes (as such) are air tanks, with no influence on trainheating. >> while in freight service, both GEEPs would have the power to >>move a couple or three cars. 2 or 3 (freight) cars would be nicely handled by any passenger geared/equipped lok. Such a hybrid set would be wasting resources (steam generator) while on freight work. It would take detail economic analysis to decide if it made sense. Also, there is a relation between need for steam and need for power. If the combined set never needed the extra power, the extra power would be wasted (bad economics). If the passenger ops needed the extra power, they also would need the extra steam... > 1. Very good question, but why discuss offline? There are a > lot of issues which your question raises which it would be > helpful to have more than one input: e.g., which units have > MU capability, steam generators, MU at both ends, torpedo > tubes, steam lines, etc. > 2. I believe most of the steam-generator-equipped Geeps (and > Alco RS-3's) had MU capability and I assume could also operate > elephant-style as well as back-to-back. Am I right, list? > 3. Question: do the non steam generator equipped roadswitchers > have steam lines or controls The controls were on the steam generator. The point about needing steam plumbing thru the second unit is apt. > to operate a steam generator in a second unit? At most, IIR, there were 'indicators' for the steam generator in the cab, not even sure about that. > This would tell you whether your two-unit set could be operated > on a passenger train. best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 17:54:05 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] GEEP MU query (off-PRR) In a message dated 10/13/02 12:02:26 PM Central Daylight Time, USMCnewdog25431@cs.com writes: << I remember reading before that the PRR did not like to mix engines, and preferred to have MU's of the same make of engine. SO this would probably mean no RS units with a GP >> Quite true, initially, but (and I am not sure what the magic year was for the change of heart) later consists could be a dog's breakfast, leaving out the pneumatic control Baldwins. I understand MUing an Erie-built with an F7 (which happened) required some major electrical connection kluges. In any event, there is a shot I always liked of a GP and RS3 MUed in one of the Pennsy Power books. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 18:08:17 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] GEEP MU query (off-PRR) In a message dated 10/13/02 1:27:28 PM Central Daylight Time, davep@quik.com writes: << 2 or 3 (freight) cars would be nicely handled by any passenger geared/equipped lok. Such a hybrid set would be wasting resources (steam generator) while on freight work. >> I believe PRR Geeps were all geared the same. Re the use of resources, the two Valpo dummies around Chicago sat idle from about 8 AM to 4PM. I believe there also were extra steam-generator-equipped Geeps , so they were seen in transfer service around the city. As you indicated, the torpedo tubes were air, relocated to allow larger water tanks. No indication of why the last batch of GP7s with steam generators didn't relocate the tanks. However, Bob Volkmer in Pennsy Diesel Years 6(?) mentioned that they did occasionally run out of fuel on the suburban runs when crews used them all day in transfer service and didn't check. These were small fuel tank Geeps. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 18:14:15 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] GEEP MU query (off-PRR) In a message dated 10/13/02 12:02:26 PM Central Daylight Time, USMCnewdog25431@cs.com writes: << Who makes this engine in passenger service? or what would be different about it so far as a model? >> P2K made an NYC (I think) version of the torpedo-tube unit. I have the air tank kit (by Details West?) to convert my Atlas GP7. I need to check which steam generator exhaust is appropriate. There may also be a problem with size of fuel and water tanks. Jim Six on the Railway Prototype Modelers list he moderates went into this in some detail a few years ago. If I get ambitious, I will check the archives. I repeat that not all the steam-generator-equipped Geeps had the air tanks relocated to the roof. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] GEEP MU query (off-PRR) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 19:15:19 -0500 GP-7's--Pennsy had three with torpedo tubes: 8551, 8552, 8553. The air tanks were placed on top to make room for train control equipment. 8551 and 8552 also had dual controls for operation in either direction and were used in passenger trains on the Elmira branch. Photos also show them operating on freight trains. With steam generators, the air tanks, and train phone antenna (no dynamic brakes) there was a lot of detail to model on the top. P2K made an undec GP-7 which had the torpedo tubes included. These three engines were late production GP-7's and would be more accurately modeled with the P2K model than the Atlas which is a very good model of an early phase. The most noticeable difference between the phases is the footboards--later engines had box like receptacles to contain the ends of unconnected MU hoses. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: [PRR] My Review of Withers Vol. 7, E's & PA's Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 19:57:40 -0500 I'm not a professional book reviewer, and maybe I shouldn't have tried this at home, but here goes: I've only spent the first of many hours with this book. If you are interested in the modeling or history of the PRR E's or PA's, get this book. The book is about 96 pages long, and 90% of the pages have 3 photos on them. The other 10% have 1 or 2 photos, tables, and text. So I'd estimate there are 260 or more photos. The photos are excellent. Every paint scheme is represented. There are even some roof shots. The text describes the reasoning for the orders, as well as some of the modifications. The tables list every PRR unit. They include Road Number, PRR Class, Builder's Date, Builder's Number, Order Number, etc. I only have two minor complaints with this book. The first minor complaint is there are no rear photos of any of the units. I guess the rear was not interesting to photographers, and the publisher did not have any good shots to choose from. Minor complaint number two is a lack of photos from 1951-1954. There are plenty of photos from builders photos to 1950, and 1955 to merger. 1951-1954 was when a lot of interesting modifications were made, and photos from this period would help pinpoint more exact dates of these changes. Some of the modifications I'm thinking of are grabs above the windshields, grabs on the "cheeks", and the EP-20 Phase II carbody modifications. I'm not saying there aren't any photos from 1951-1954, but there are only a handful, mostly of EP-22's. Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 07:04:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] GEEP MU query (off-PRR) --part1_16f.1583fe22.2adbfebf_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/13/2002 6:00:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bobspf@aol.com writes: > In any > event, there is a shot I always liked of a GP and RS3 MUed in one of the > Pennsy Power books. > I agree about mixing power! I have an RS unit that runs great with an RS11, both alco? :) I would be more interested in narrowing down that magic year the PRR started mixing power though! I model a pretty wide time frame (1940's to the 1950's), so hopefully it will be in there!! Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period PRRT&HS #7136 List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo --part1_16f.1583fe22.2adbfebf_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/13/2002 6:00:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bobspf@aol.com writes:


In any
event, there is a shot I always liked of a GP and RS3 MUed in one of the
Pennsy Power books.  


I agree about mixing power! I have an RS unit that runs great with an RS11, both alco? :)

I would be more interested in narrowing down that magic year the PRR started mixing power though! I model a pretty wide time frame (1940's to the 1950's), so hopefully it will be in there!!

Mike Schock
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period
PRRT&HS  #7136
List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo
--part1_16f.1583fe22.2adbfebf_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 07:57:50 EDT Subject: [PRR] North What? Indiana (Madison Branch) --part1_148.5f06c0.2adc0b3e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/13/02 1:26:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > One of the others is in Indiana were the grade is just under 6%. This was > on the list a few weeks back in a question about the two modified EMD > SD-7's > on the Pennsy. Just after leaving North Vernon, Indiana the line headed > down > a nearly 6% grade to the Ohio River then on to Madison, Indiana. In steam > days, the operating procedure was to the run the locos backwards down the > grade to keep water over the crown sheet. > > Evan Leisey > Correct in spirit -- however, note that the Madison Branch of the PRR began with MP 0.0 at COLUMBUS Indiana, itself 41 miles down the 111 mile Louisville Branch from Indianapolis. The Branch then crossed fairly flat country (and track abandoned since Conrail) to its crossing of the B&O/Ohio & Mississippi main line at the junction town of NORTH VERNON, MP 21.5. At North Vernon, the PRR crossed the B&O main and an NYC branch. South of North Vernon, track still in operation by the local port authority's railroad leads through VERNON (MP 23.1), JEFF (MP 36.9 and the connection of US Army tracks leading into the now-civilianized Jefferson Proving Grounds), and to the town of NORHT MADISON (MP 43.0). Here the present short line railroad finds a handful of industries to serve, and the end of active track. Only at the south edge of North Madison does the Madison Hill pitch off a bluff and form an essentially straight ramp downhill to the bank of the Ohio River, diving from 870.2 feet above sea level to 449.5 feet, or just above Ohio River level. The Hill itself, an average 5.89% grade but according to engineering data with one stretch exceeding 6%, has not seen traffic since the last heavy equipment was moved in or out of the riverside power generating plant in 1993 -- and had lain unmaintained for years before that. At the bottom of Madison Hill lies the old riverboat town of MADISON IN (MP 45.2), but not before the tracks make a suicidal 90 degree curve to parallel the riverbank. History (most recently an article in Trains magazine) records that sometimes trains did not hold the curve, and runaways went straight into the river. Madison, the original starting place of this first railroad in Indiana, has built a replica of its octagonal passenger station, and the photo story inside offers much to the fan of railroad history. The Hill itself, visible at a few places from highways, is an interesting walk, but one must dodge the young trees that are growing between the rails, and watch out for the notorious local copperhead snake population. Unless one is familiar with the area, the temptation to confuse North Vernon with North Madison is overwhelming. Adding to the chaos, JEFF is a named block station on the Madison Branch, and easily confused with JEFFERSONVILLE, the PRR yard and town at MP 107.2 on the Louisville Branch and just across the Ohio River from Louisville -- folks around here verbally refer to it as "Jeff" and "Jeff Yard" for short. At least all this is more clear than a cluster of Indiana towns with Green in the name -- Greenfield, Greenwood, Greensburg, Greencastle -- each within a few miles of Indianapolis, but each in different directions. David Letterman could probably come up with the top ten Green place names in Indiana. Oh well... Rick Tipton On the Ohio River at Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_148.5f06c0.2adc0b3e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/13/02 1:26:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


One of the others is in Indiana were the grade is just under 6%.  This was
on the list a few weeks back in a question about the two modified EMD SD-7's
on the Pennsy.  Just after leaving North Vernon, Indiana the line headed down
a nearly 6% grade to the Ohio River then on to Madison, Indiana.  In steam
days,  the operating procedure was to the run the locos backwards down the
grade to keep water over the crown sheet.

Evan Leisey


Correct in spirit -- however, note that the Madison Branch of the PRR began with MP 0.0 at COLUMBUS Indiana, itself 41 miles down the 111 mile Louisville Branch from Indianapolis.  The Branch then crossed fairly flat country (and track abandoned since Conrail) to its crossing of the B&O/Ohio & Mississippi main line at the junction town of NORTH VERNON, MP 21.5.  At North Vernon, the PRR crossed the B&O main and an NYC branch.  South of North Vernon, track still in operation by the local port authority's railroad leads through VERNON (MP 23.1), JEFF (MP 36.9 and the connection of US Army tracks leading into the now-civilianized Jefferson Proving Grounds), and to the town of NORHT MADISON (MP 43.0).  Here the present short line railroad finds a handful of industries to serve, and the end of active track.

Only at the south edge of North Madison does the Madison Hill pitch off a bluff and form an essentially straight ramp downhill to the bank of the Ohio River, diving from 870.2 feet above sea level to 449.5 feet, or just above Ohio River level.  The Hill itself, an average 5.89% grade but according to engineering data with one stretch exceeding 6%, has not seen traffic since the last heavy equipment was moved in or out of the riverside power generating plant in 1993 -- and had lain unmaintained for years before that. 

At the bottom of Madison Hill lies the old riverboat town of MADISON IN (MP 45.2), but not before the tracks make a suicidal 90 degree curve to parallel the riverbank.  History (most recently an article in Trains magazine) records that sometimes trains did not hold the curve, and runaways went straight into the river.

Madison, the original starting place of this first railroad in Indiana, has built a replica of its octagonal passenger station, and the photo story inside offers much to the fan of railroad history.  The Hill itself, visible at a few places from highways, is an interesting walk, but one must dodge the young trees that are growing between the rails, and watch out for the notorious local copperhead snake population.

Unless one is familiar with the area, the temptation to confuse North Vernon with North Madison is overwhelming.  Adding to the chaos, JEFF is a named block station on the Madison Branch, and easily confused with JEFFERSONVILLE, the PRR yard and town at MP 107.2 on the Louisville Branch and just across the Ohio River from Louisville -- folks around here verbally refer to it as "Jeff" and "Jeff Yard" for short.

At least all this is more clear than a cluster of Indiana towns with Green in the name -- Greenfield, Greenwood, Greensburg, Greencastle -- each within a few miles of Indianapolis, but each in different directions.  David Letterman could probably come up with the top ten Green place names in Indiana.  Oh well...



Rick Tipton
On the Ohio River at Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_148.5f06c0.2adc0b3e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 09:31:40 -0400 Subject: [PRR] PRR Virtual Layout From: Jerry Britton I've done a rework of the PRR Virtual Layout page(s) at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/virtual_prr/ In addition to a listing of member layouts and a series of regional maps showing members, there is now a "System" map showing represented areas. I've also promoted George Pierson's layout to "Member" status, although I have not made a site visit. I waived the site visit requirement since his Denholm coal wharf has been featured in the modeling press. Welcome aboard, George! I've also found two new layouts that have membership pending... There is an N scale layout that models Harrisburg to Williamsport, Williamsport to Buffalo, and Williamsport to Sodus Point. It is the latter, the Elmira Branch, that is a frontrunner for inclusion. I've also found an N scale layout that models the Susquehanna Division from Harrisburg to Northumberland. Both of these owners have invited me to visit and to take pics, so you'll be seeing them at some point. Although I haven't made direct contact yet, I've been e-introduced to a guy who's doing the "Low Grade" in HO scale. Stan Ebersole: I need your Northern Central Branch to get you included from Wago Junction to York. Thanks! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] GEEP MU query (off-PRR) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 07:41:29 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2738F.C813E5E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi all; Didn't Bill Volkmer and others discuss this in the PDY books? It was also later covered in more detail elsewhere. I think the big mixing (which did not include Baldwin power) began around '62 with the retrofitting of 27 point jumpers into Alco and a few FM road units. After that it was a free-for-all. All three of the three big remaining manufacturers (EMD,GE,Alco) were freely mixed. Older stuff got mixed where compatible (EMD cabs with occasional FM C-Liners; Alcos and EMDs). Before the 60's, PRR liked to keep like sets matched. Hope this helps. Elden ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2738F.C813E5E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi all;
Didn't Bill Volkmer and others discuss this in the PDY books?  It was also later covered in more detail elsewhere.  I think the big mixing (which did not include Baldwin power) began around '62 with the retrofitting of 27 point jumpers into Alco and a few FM road units.  After that it was a free-for-all.  All three of the three big remaining manufacturers (EMD,GE,Alco) were freely mixed.  Older stuff got mixed where compatible (EMD cabs with occasional FM C-Liners; Alcos and EMDs). Before the 60's, PRR liked to keep like sets matched.  Hope this helps.
Elden
 
------_=_NextPart_001_01C2738F.C813E5E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:53:22 -0400 Subject: [PRR] 1955 System Map by Region / 1951 Regional Maps From: Jerry Britton Over the weekend I scanned and posted a very nice, and clean, PRR system map. The map is as of the "November 1, 1955 Reorganization" and each of the region's trackage is color coded. Very nice. It's in the Maps section of Keystone Crossings at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/maps/ I'm still looking for a set of Division Accounting Maps for the 1951 reorganization. At one point someone thought they had them, but they were mistaken. If you have a set that you can loan me for about two weeks I would really appreciate it. I did acquire a set of 1958 Division Accounting Maps which I will scan shortly after I release the "Pennsylvania Railroad in 1954" CD-ROM, which is almost complete and contains thousands of pages of PRR documentation. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Oct 02 12:32:59 EDT From: LINKM@timken.com Subject: [PRR] HO scale decals List, Are the Microscale decals listed in the Walthers catalog, for PRR steam en gines, a correct buy? I'm sure the freight engines of the late 40's and after h ad gold buff lettering, not dulux gold, correct? Also, do these decal sets have numbers small enough for a number plate on the smokebox front? If anyone out t here knows where I can get decal sets that are correct for 1940's and later fre ight and passenger steamers, please advise. I know that decals are becoming sca rce as manufacturers dwindle in numbers. Thanks in advance! Matt Link PRR T&HS #7140 ********************************************************************** This message and any attachments are intended for the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not forward, copy, print, use or disclose this communication to others; also please notify the sender by replying to this message, and then delete it from your system. The Timken Company ********************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 12:50:43 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] HO scale decals Matt, I thought "dulux gold" and "gold buff" were the same. The original was "bronze gold" or gold leaf, depending on which decal mfr you ask. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== LINKM@timken.com wrote: > List, > Are the Microscale decals listed in the Walthers catalog, for PRR steam en > gines, a correct buy? I'm sure the freight engines of the late 40's and after h > ad gold buff lettering, not dulux gold, correct? Also, do these decal sets have > numbers small enough for a number plate on the smokebox front? If anyone out t > here knows where I can get decal sets that are correct for 1940's and later fre > ight and passenger steamers, please advise. I know that decals are becoming sca > rce as manufacturers dwindle in numbers. Thanks in advance! > Matt Link > PRR T&HS #7140 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] HO scale decals Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 13:20:37 -0400 "I thought "dulux gold" and "gold buff" were the same. " No, they are not. Not to recap this topic from a while ago, Gold Buff was used before Deluxe Gold. Gold Buff was primary freight and when Deluxe came out, it went to Passenger Steam. Though, Buff lasted to the end of steam. If they have done it yet I don't know, but Microscale was forwarded information for this product to be made with the correct buff color (that was at the East Coast Hobby Show in 2001). -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Andrew S. Miller Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 12:51 PM To: LINKM@timken.com Cc: PRR-TALK@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] HO scale decals Matt, I thought "dulux gold" and "gold buff" were the same. The original was "bronze gold" or gold leaf, depending on which decal mfr you ask. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== LINKM@timken.com wrote: > List, > Are the Microscale decals listed in the Walthers catalog, for PRR steam en > gines, a correct buy? I'm sure the freight engines of the late 40's and after h > ad gold buff lettering, not dulux gold, correct? Also, do these decal sets have > numbers small enough for a number plate on the smokebox front? If anyone out t > here knows where I can get decal sets that are correct for 1940's and later fre > ight and passenger steamers, please advise. I know that decals are becoming sca > rce as manufacturers dwindle in numbers. Thanks in advance! > Matt Link > PRR T&HS #7140 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 13:52:11 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] HO scale decals Greg, Then there were three golds - right? - Bronze gold, used on passenger steam - Gold Buff, used on freight steam - Dulux (I believe its "dulux", a Dupont trade mark) Gold, replacing Bronze Gold on passenger steam. When did the change from Bronze to Dulux take place on Passenger Steam? Was Dulux Gold the the original color on early DGLE passenger diesels? Was Gold Buff the color of later diesels, freight and passenger? I have to admit to being mislead all these years by the two shades offered by Champ Decals. I am glad I made my erroneous comment and got to learn something. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." wrote: > "I thought "dulux gold" and "gold buff" were the same. " > > No, they are not. Not to recap this topic from a while ago, Gold Buff was > used before Deluxe Gold. Gold Buff was primary freight and when Deluxe came > out, it went to Passenger Steam. Though, Buff lasted to the end of steam. > > If they have done it yet I don't know, but Microscale was forwarded > information for this product to be made with the correct buff color (that > was at the East Coast Hobby Show in 2001). > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Andrew S. > Miller > Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 12:51 PM > To: LINKM@timken.com > Cc: PRR-TALK@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] HO scale decals > > Matt, > > I thought "dulux gold" and "gold buff" were the same. The original was > "bronze > gold" or gold leaf, depending on which decal mfr you ask. > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > LINKM@timken.com wrote: > > > List, > > Are the Microscale decals listed in the Walthers catalog, for PRR > steam en > > gines, a correct buy? I'm sure the freight engines of the late 40's and > after h > > ad gold buff lettering, not dulux gold, correct? Also, do these decal sets > have > > numbers small enough for a number plate on the smokebox front? If anyone > out t > > here knows where I can get decal sets that are correct for 1940's and > later fre > > ight and passenger steamers, please advise. I know that decals are > becoming sca > > rce as manufacturers dwindle in numbers. Thanks in advance! > > Matt Link > > PRR T&HS #7140 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 13:58:10 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] HO scale decals From: Jerry Britton On 10/14/02 1:52 PM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > Then there were three golds - right? > > - Bronze gold, used on passenger steam > - Gold Buff, used on freight steam > - Dulux (I believe its "dulux", a Dupont trade mark) Gold, replacing Bronze > Gold on passenger steam. > > When did the change from Bronze to Dulux take place on Passenger Steam? > Was Dulux Gold the the original color on early DGLE passenger diesels? > Was Gold Buff the color of later diesels, freight and passenger? > > I have to admit to being mislead all these years by the two shades offered by > Champ Decals. I am glad I made my erroneous comment and got to learn > something. > Tell me about it. I had no idea. I also thought "Dulux Gold" and "Gold Buff" were the same. Any documentation on this? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] HO scale decals Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 14:30:14 -0400 Prior to the passing of Jim Kelly, he talked my ear off about this. We went to the E. Coast Hobby show to talk to Microscale about this product. Jim forwarded information to Microscale and I am unaware if they produced anything yet. I will look up my notes to see if I can get the story straight on time periods. To my knowledge, Deluxe Gold/Bronze did not come out until mid 20's. Also, Futura style lettering was painted with Buff only. Again, to my recollection. I could be wrong. Correct me if I am. Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 1:58 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] HO scale decals On 10/14/02 1:52 PM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > Then there were three golds - right? > > - Bronze gold, used on passenger steam > - Gold Buff, used on freight steam > - Dulux (I believe its "dulux", a Dupont trade mark) Gold, replacing Bronze > Gold on passenger steam. > > When did the change from Bronze to Dulux take place on Passenger Steam? > Was Dulux Gold the the original color on early DGLE passenger diesels? > Was Gold Buff the color of later diesels, freight and passenger? > > I have to admit to being mislead all these years by the two shades offered by > Champ Decals. I am glad I made my erroneous comment and got to learn > something. > Tell me about it. I had no idea. I also thought "Dulux Gold" and "Gold Buff" were the same. Any documentation on this? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 14:53:39 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Railroad-Related Definitions From: Jerry Britton I was just perusing the 1945 edition of the CT1000C, looking for coal mines owned/operated by Berwind White. Seems as if most of them were on the south side of the main line (ex.: South Fork Branch). I was hoping to find some off of the Cresson Secondary or the Irvona Branch. No such luck. Anyway, I took note of the many mines that are listed in the CT1000 as "colliery" and wondered what the difference is between a mine and a colliery. Turns out, the "mine" is just the hole in the ground. The "colliery" is the mine together with the buildings on the site. I'